From michelleapostolides at lineone.net Tue Jun 26 22:16:57 2001 From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:16:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Least Fave Characters References: <9eka07+p479@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00f901c0fe8d$b75dde40$af357bd5@tmeltcds> No: HPFGUIDX 19554 Perhaps, like many Englishmen, JKR just doesn't > think much of foreigners, and it shows in her writing. I mean that > literally; she doesn't put much thought into them. I have to correct you there. JKR probably has a greater understanding of different cultures for two reasons. 1 ) She studied and speaks fluent French - which you can't do unless you understand the people and culture. 2 ) She lived and taught English in Portugal. She also taught EFL in this country. I accept that most English people have no idea of anything other than Englishness but we aren't all like that. Michelle From reanna20 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 00:41:31 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 17:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lighting... Message-ID: <20010601004131.49848.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19870 I'm sure that this has been mentioned by someone but I thought I'd ask anyways. Just to let you know that I did look beforehand, I used the search function on the archives and looked at the Lexicon. No dice. And I can't recall any specific answers in the books. Of course, I still could've missed something... So, anyways, what's up with the lighting in Hogwarts? The only mention I see of it is the floating candles in the Great Hall, various torches on walls, and the fireplaces in the common rooms. Is all the lighting in Hogwarts by candlelight/firelight? That seems rather unhealthy for the eyes. And Hogwarts must go through tons of candles (unless they're enchanted of course!) And if Hogwarts *is* only lit by candlelight/firelight, that seems rather odd. What with the "Lumos" spell and all, you'd think there is a spell that can imbue an object with light (a la lightbulb). Or that there would be mention of this. Is the entire wizarding world reading by candlelight? Have I missed something? ~Amber (Who'll feel exceedingly silly if the answer was staring her in the face...) ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Don't ya just hate crappy homepages?...well, here's another! "This body is dying. I can feel it rotting all around me. How can anything that is going to die be real? How can it be truly beautiful?" - Peter S. Beagle "The Last Unicorn" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jun 1 01:01:01 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 01:01:01 -0000 Subject: Lighting... In-Reply-To: <20010601004131.49848.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f6pgd+su6c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19871 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber wrote: > > I'm sure that this has been mentioned by someone but I thought I'd ask > anyways. Just to let you know that I did look beforehand, I used the > search function on the archives and looked at the Lexicon. No dice. And > I can't recall any specific answers in the books. Of course, I still > could've missed something... > > So, anyways, what's up with the lighting in Hogwarts? The only mention > I see of it is the floating candles in the Great Hall, various torches > on walls, and the fireplaces in the common rooms. Is all the lighting > in Hogwarts by candlelight/firelight? That seems rather unhealthy for > the eyes. And Hogwarts must go through tons of candles (unless they're > enchanted of course!) > > And if Hogwarts *is* only lit by candlelight/firelight, that seems > rather odd. What with the "Lumos" spell and all, you'd think there is a > spell that can imbue an object with light (a la lightbulb). Or that > there would be mention of this. Is the entire wizarding world reading > by candlelight? Have I missed something? > The lighting at Hogarts is probably enchanted in some way or the other. I know that lamps and some candle-holders from the 19th century had "reflectors" which reflected the light and intensified it. Sure, it wouldn't compare to a 100 watt light bulb, but it provided a bit more light. A funny story from my college days...The ceiling light fixture in my room burnt out, leaving my desk lamp as the only non-candle light source. I was on a 4 week waiting list to get my ceiling light fixed (I would have done it myself but I lived in an older building with 12 foot high ceilings!) Before I could buy light bulbs for my desk lamp, the bulb burnt out. Needless to say, six vanilla-scented pillar-type candles produced sufficient light to read by. Milz From maggiemcgreggor at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 01:04:33 2001 From: maggiemcgreggor at hotmail.com (Maggie) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 01:04:33 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map in GOF Message-ID: <9f6pn1+l334@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19872 I just finished re-reading GOF for the fifth time and this has struck me as quite odd...Did Harry every get the Map back from Moody/Crouch? After the chapter where he asks to borrow the map, I don't ever see it mentioned again, at least not mentioned in Harry's posession. Any thoughts on this, or will this end up being another mistake/hint? -Maggie "No other road, no other way, no day but today." -Rent (Jonathan Larson, 1960-1996) From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jun 1 01:10:55 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 01:10:55 -0000 Subject: The Marauder's Map in GOF In-Reply-To: <9f6pn1+l334@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f6q2v+gfms@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19873 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Maggie" wrote: > I just finished re-reading GOF for the fifth time and this has struck > me as quite odd...Did Harry every get the Map back from Moody/Crouch? > After the chapter where he asks to borrow the map, I don't ever see > it mentioned again, at least not mentioned in Harry's posession. Any > thoughts on this, or will this end up being another mistake/hint? > > -Maggie > > "No other road, no other way, no day but today." > -Rent (Jonathan Larson, 1960-1996) The map is mentioned during the Crouch Jr. confession. Dumbledore says something like "Map? What map?" It's never said if the map is returned to Harry. Most likely, the map was confiscated by Dumbledore or whomever looked through Crouch, Jr.'s things after he was 'Demented'. This is one of those 'wait and see' things. :-)Milz From mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 02:11:58 2001 From: mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com (Michi) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Aparating and Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <9f5s0b+drb4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010601021158.88035.qmail@web3208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19874 --- Steve Vander Ark wrote: > You can't Apparate on the Hogwarts grounds at all. Hmm... this brings up a rather silly question. If you can't Apparate at all on Hogwarts grounds then how would they teach their students to do so? I think I remember something in either GoF or PoA that says that 6th years are taught about Apparation -- wonder if/how the teachers teach them OR if they just learn it all after they're done at Hogwarts? > Unless you're a House-Elf, in which case you can > just plain do > whatever you want. Thankfully, they just want to do > nice things like > lay fires and cook eclairs. Yummie~ eclairs :d~ :) Michi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 02:29:43 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evil--Lewis and JKR In-Reply-To: <50.167cabc4.2847af90@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010601022943.76323.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19875 --- JamiDeise at aol.com wrote: > "Deus ex machina" > is usually a criticism > for a literary piece of work whose ending seems to > have been drawn out of the > air by its author. And it doesn't necessary involve > God, another diety or > magical creature arriving to solve everything. > Actually, the Second Coming > wouldn't even be considered deus ex machina because > it's already supported by > the religion. A bit of background might make this a little clearer. The usage of "deus ex machina" dates back to the old Greek plays. Whenever the author had completely painted himself into a corner with his plot, he'd use this big crane thing to bring a god in to solve everything. ie, the hero is supposed to end up at the Trojan War, according to prophesy (and every *other* Trojan War story ), but he still refuses to go even after the guys sent after him have exhausted every single argument they know of to get him to go. So in swings a god and he simply declares that the hero WILL go and he will LIKE it, darn it! End of story. :) Why am I rattling all this out? Well, the whole point of these deus ex machinas is that the god just popped up out of thin air to solve things, without having been part of any of the action previously, and just makes everything right with a wave of a hand. Now, it's been quite a while since I've read any of the Narnia books, but Aslan's sacrifice doesn't quite fall into the realm of deus ex machina. He's been a part of the action for a while and is working with everyone to solve the problem. It's more a resolution of the action than just a god coming down and solving everything. So to bring it all back to HP, Harry managing to defeat Voldie at the end of Book 7 wouldn't be deus ex machina. Dumbledore beating Voldie at the end of Book 7 wouldn't be deus ex machina. Heck, Colin Creevy could do it and it wouldn't necessarily be a deus ex machina. (Though it might be amusing to read. ) What *would* be a deus ex machina would be for the Great Spirit of Godric Gryffindor to show up, say "Tom, you've been a very bad boy. Go to your room!", then make Voldie disappear in a little poof of smoke. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 02:35:58 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 02:35:58 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <63.16cc6bba.284820ca@aol.com> Message-ID: <9f6v2e+e3ur@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19876 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > Does anyone know which interview that was and where I can find it? > Personally, I thought the DE who had left forever was Snape, but I hate to > assume things with these books. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Supposedly it was an interview JKR made while in Canada late last year. It seems JKR was reading from this part of the book and when she said *he will be killed* the crowd went ahhhhh. She was surprised and said not to worry, he (Snape) was tough. Now, I tried to find that interview and the only thing I could find was a very small article in a newspaper about JKR reading at a particular school. It seems like the school was for some children with special needs. There was nothing in the article about this part of the reading. But again, it was a very small article and it's possible that wasn't even the event where this occured. I can't even tell you what newspaper it was in or what city it was. I got this information from someone in Canada. I have yet to see it in writing so I do hesitate to bring it up. Sorry, I know this isn't much help! Koinonia From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Jun 1 02:49:04 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 02:49:04 -0000 Subject: One Turner of Time (filk) Message-ID: <9f6vr0+7273@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19877 One Turner of Time (To the tune of One Moment in Time) Dedicated to Lisa THE SCENE: Gryffindor common area. Enter HERMIONE HERMIONE Each class I take I want to be A class that makes Me scholarly I'm only one I have no clone There's magic yet To me unknown To know, I yearn - Despite each "A" That I have earned I feel dismay To take each course Would reinforce All I would learn I want one turner of time, In more places than you thought I could be When all of my classes are coincident Ev'ry answer will be known to me Give me one turner of time When I'm racing to History Then with that same turner of time I will attend I will attend Arithmancy I want each course On my transcript I'll be discreet My mouth is zipped Rewards I'll reap I'll gain such sweep I'll give up sleep Give me one turner of time The curriculum in totality When all of my textbooks I have memorized Each topic will be mastered by me Give me one turner of time When I'm dashing to Herbol'gy Then with that same turner of time I will take I will take Muggle Studies I can rescue now two lifelines If I seize that one turner of time Make it chime! Give me one turner of time Black and Buckbeak's lives I will guarantee Harry's Patronus will be hoofbeats away We will not have to change history Give me one turner of time So Sirius from the tower can flee Then with that same turner of time He will be He will be He will be free He will be He will be free! (HERMIONE turns the hourglass and vanishes) - CMC From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Jun 1 02:51:46 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 02:51:46 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #4 Results In-Reply-To: <9f6jjd+18gc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f7002+3agt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19878 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > This week's contest was to identify who spoke the various Famous Last > Lines submitted by our resident genius, CMC. > "I'd better hurry ? you have a good term, boys!" ? Arthur Weasley, > GoF, Chapter 11 > [Elena noted that this is actually Arthur Weasley's SECOND to last > line. He subsequently says, "Molly, are you going to be all right > taking the kids to King's Cross?"] > Oops! How embarrassing! That the correct line was in the same paragraph makes it even worse. Hey, even resident geniuses aren't always perfect. - CMC From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 1 03:15:01 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 03:15:01 -0000 Subject: Lighting... In-Reply-To: <20010601004131.49848.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f71bl+f1o8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19879 Amber wrote: "Is all the lighting in Hogwarts by candlelight/firelight? That seems rather unhealthy for the eyes. And Hogwarts must go through tons of candles (unless they're enchanted of course!)" --I agree with Milz that the candles are probably enchanted to last exceptionally long, and be especially bright. There certainly doesn't seem to be any form of "elecktricity" at Hogwarts, even in a magically altered from (since there couldn't be real electricity in the wizard world). Besides why should there be? The idea of flaming torches, fire flickering and casting shadows on the walls of Snape's dungeon, or the warmth and light that radiates from the large stone fireplace in the Gryffindor common room as the trio curls into three squishy armchairs and snow falls outside the windows really creates the perfect atmosphere don't you think? It's very middle ages and works wonderfully in my imagination. Scott Who as a young child reading books that took place long ago would cut off all the lights in the house, build a fire and curl up on blanket to read, pretending that I lived in that long ago world when warmth and light did't come from the click of a button. It was fun then, it's romantic now, and wonderful with a cup of cocoa after a day in cold snowy weather... From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 04:07:57 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 21:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hey I'm new In-Reply-To: <9f7002+3agt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010601040757.70903.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19880 Hi guys, My name is Melanie and I'm a 20 year old early childhood major at Bowling Green State University in Ohio. I absolutely love Harry Potter, I can't tell you how much joy the books bring me. I am also very happy to see such a large group of older fans like you guys it's very reassuring. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joym999 at aol.com Fri Jun 1 04:10:41 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 04:10:41 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #5 Message-ID: <9f74k1+3ime@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19881 This week's contest is about everyone's favorite subject ? no, not Harry Potter, but your *other* favorite subject ? SEX!!! Well, and love and romance and all that related stuff, too. First, a disclaimer: This contest is only open to people over the age of 18. If you are underage, you should not participate. You should not read this message. You should not even think about this message. You should, especially, not think about sex. (If you don't believe me, ask your parents.) No matter what your age, if you are offended by any references to sex or sexuality, don't read this message or the responses. OK, now that we're protected (in the legal sense, I mean), let's proceed. This week we will be speculating on the sex and love lives of witches and wizards. How are they different than those of muggles? What's the deal with love potions? What kind of spells and charms and potions do wizards use to make their romances more romantic and their sex lives more sexy? Your response should consist of speculation on any of the above questions, or another, related question. It can involve a spell or other magical item mentioned in the books, or one you have made up. For example, I have often thought that Polyjuice Potion could really spice up your sex life. Not that my sweetie isn't the cutest thing ever, but he'd be even cuter after he drank some Polyjuice with one of Antonio Banderas' hairs in it. (I know it would only last for an hour, but what a fun hour it would be!) This contest will, of necessity, involve a fair amount of blatant sexual content. Nevertheless, please try and be tasteful about it. Try and be creative, too. In other words, spare us the obvious remarks about Engorgement Charms and the like. Oh, and if you want me to keep your response anonymous, just let me know. (You can trust me not to sell your secrets to the Daily Prophet or the New York Post.) Oops, and before I forget, the rules: 1. Contest responses should be sent by email to the contest email address, which is HP4GUCon at aol.com. RESPONSES SHOULD NOT BE POSTED TO THE LIST. Anyone posting responses, especially puzzle answers, to the list will be disqualified from participation in that contest, sent a howler, turned into a toad, sent to Azkaban, AND forced to eat bubotuber pus. SO DON'T POST RESPONSES TO THE LIST. 2. Contests will be posted on Fridays. Responses should be sent by email to HP4GUCon at aol.com by midnight Tuesday night (EST). For puzzle contests, both the correct answers and a list of everyone who submitted a correct solution by the deadline will be posted on Wednesday (or Thursday at the latest). For creative and speculative contests, all responses will be posted, although I might just post a random sampling if there are a real lot of responses to a particular contest. ? Joywitch From floridian127 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 04:31:35 2001 From: floridian127 at yahoo.com (floridian127 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 04:31:35 -0000 Subject: Portraits? In-Reply-To: <9f4ts6+8f1n@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f75r7+q1pu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19882 CoS referred to the old headmasters on the wall as portraits. I use portrait to mean professional photograph not painting. I take my own pictures. Pictures do not talk or visit others, they just smile and wave. But didn't someone mention the Headmasters visiting Sir Calahan? I expect paintings to be one-of-a-kinds, otherwise you would have multiple fat ladies wandering around. What are considered Portraits in the UK? Floridian, needing magic to fight the fires. Sorry if this rambles, I just ate a pepper flavored bean. yuk --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: aside from the subjects in the paintings moving from one picture to the next and visiting each other, they can have 'intelligent' and interacitve conversations with humans. I don't remember any instances of photos speaking, but there was that bit in CoS when they enter Lockhart's office to examine Mrs Norris. Lockhart is babbling away while Dumbledore examines her and all the while his photos are nodding in agreement with all he says. From this, I suppose that means that they can at least follow humans' conversations, but they didn't actually speak. Do the photos (are they photos or paintings?) of the former headmasters in Dumbledore's office ever speak? I'm thinking no. Apparently if photos could speak, J&L would have been chatting with Harry when he looks at his album. Someone wondered if perhaps there might be paintings of J&L, and I think this is a wonderful idea. As much as I would love to see this, I don't think it seems very likely that JKR will do this. (I've often thought that maybe their ghosts reside in Godric's Hollow.) From what I recall from interviews and so on, she seems very firm in her stance that they (J&L) will not be back... > > Kelley From floridian127 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 04:54:02 2001 From: floridian127 at yahoo.com (floridian127 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 04:54:02 -0000 Subject: Snape at rebirthing? In-Reply-To: <9f6eus+n174@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f775a+9f4n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19883 I think Snape did make it to the rebirthing. Dumbledore would have wanted him to if possible. LV did not name all the attendents and someone else could be the one who left forever. Snape would have left quickly after Harry by LV's command. "Find out what happening servant Snape!" Why would the portkey be set to come right back [time wise]? Crouch would not have expected Harry to use it again. Floridian, Next bean was buttered toast, feeling better now. From medusa_975 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 06:18:44 2001 From: medusa_975 at hotmail.com (medusa_975 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 06:18:44 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <9f6v2e+e3ur@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f7c44+9he1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19884 Hi, it wasn't an interview, it was a reading JKR gave at a bookshop. Someone who posted on Jenna's Unofficial HP Fan Club site attended the reading and put an account of it on the forum there. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > > > Does anyone know which interview that was and where I can find it? > > Personally, I thought the DE who had left forever was Snape, but I > hate to > > assume things with these books. Any help would be greatly > appreciated. > > Supposedly it was an interview JKR made while in Canada late last > year. It seems JKR was reading from this part of the book and when > she said *he will be killed* the crowd went ahhhhh. She was > surprised and said not to worry, he (Snape) was tough. Now, I tried > to find that interview and the only thing I could find was a very > small article in a newspaper about JKR reading at a particular > school. It seems like the school was for some children with special > needs. There was nothing in the article about this part of the > reading. But again, it was a very small article and it's possible > that wasn't even the event where this occured. I can't even tell you > what newspaper it was in or what city it was. I got this information > from someone in Canada. I have yet to see it in writing so I do > hesitate to bring it up. Sorry, I know this isn't much help! > > Koinonia From corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 06:45:20 2001 From: corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com (Doreen Rich) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 06:45:20 -0000 Subject: Why Harry stay with the Dursley's In-Reply-To: <9f62eh+65bh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f7dm0+qk44@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19885 Harry must have given them his address ... as Molly Weasley sent him that letter with all the stamps on it. Doreen --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" wrote: > M. Barnett wrote: > "Someone wondered how the Weasley's knew where to find Harry. I have > a theory on this also ... > > "It is quite possible that the Weasley's knew how and where to find > Harry because Dumbledore allowed them to find Harry. We all know, > especially from the end of GoF, that Dumbledore trusts the Weasley's, > so it would make sense that he would send them to "rescue" Harry from > Privet Drive." > > --Ah...no. Maybe I'm confused, but I'm going to assume you're talking > about CoS first and foremost. I don't understand why you'd think that > Dumbledore sent them on in an illegal enchanted car to steal him > apparently without permission. Though with Dumbledore I suppose it > *is* possible. Hmmm... > > Why is it that people assume that no one know where Harry stays in > the summer months. The Weasleys obviously know though since Harry > told them, and the same for Hermione, maybe not the exact location at > first. Voldy knows too. > > It might not have been in the Daily Prophet with a map when Dumbly > first put Harry on the doorstep, but I see no reason to think that > people couldn't find out if they wished to do so. I also see the > flipside which that Harry's home could have been swamped with > grateful wizards all trying to get a look at "The-Boy-Who-Lived" in > his infancy. > > Hmmm > > Scott From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 1 08:47:15 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 08:47:15 -0000 Subject: Portraits? In-Reply-To: <9f75r7+q1pu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f7kqj+l76d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19886 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., floridian127 at y... wrote: > CoS referred to the old headmasters on the wall as portraits. > I use portrait to mean professional photograph not painting. I take > my own pictures. Pictures do not talk or visit others, they just > smile and wave. But didn't someone mention the Headmasters visiting > Sir Calahan? I expect paintings to be one-of-a-kinds, otherwise you > would have multiple fat ladies wandering around. What are considered > Portraits in the UK? > > Floridian, needing magic to fight the fires. > Sorry if this rambles, I just ate a pepper flavored bean. yuk > > > In the UK, it's normal for long-established schools (and similar institutions such as Oxford colleges) to have portraits of previous heads (or provosts, rectors, masters, deans, or whatever the post is called). These are paintings, even for recent incumbents, and I would expect that Dumbledore, being quite old, has already sat for his. The unqualified word portrait is usually understood to mean a painting, but portrait-style photos would also be so-called. Colin Creevey's remarks imply that wizard photography is a potion applied to develop a conventional film. This does not completely rule out the possibility of another separate magical process (I can't remember what Bozo does, if we're told); but it wouldn't have been possible until conventional photography was invented. I'm pretty sure that Dumbledore's study has paintings, not mugshots. David From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 1 08:57:54 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 08:57:54 -0000 Subject: Why Harry stay with the Dursley's In-Reply-To: <9f7dm0+qk44@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f7lei+rheo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19887 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" wrote: > Harry must have given them his address ... as Molly Weasley sent him > that letter with all the stamps on it. > > Doreen > Perhaps Arthur used the directorius inversus spell on the phone number Harry gave Ron at the end of COS to get the address. FWIW, I don't think the 'ancient magic' that protects Harry is of the Fidelius type or that his address is particularly secret. Voldemort seems to more or less know the score. I guess it's to do with blood relationships as it seems important that the Dursleys are Harry's last remaining relatives. Perhaps Harry would be safe in any other temporary location (ie not dumped in an orphanage) that the Dursleys had first approved - making the 'kidnap' at the beginning of COS a risky exercise? more on this next spring/summer, no doubt. David From bludger_witch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 11:18:14 2001 From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:18:14 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at rebirthing? References: <9f775a+9f4n@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <016601c0ea8c$8e43c160$482907d5@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 19888 > I think Snape did make it to the rebirthing. Dumbledore > would have wanted him to if possible. > Floridian, Whew! *wipes sweat from brow* I kept out of the discussion because I was afraid that you'd start to throw rotten tomatoes again , but now I see that I'm not alone! If Snape really is going to be useful as Undercover again then he has to get on Voldy's good side (does he hve one? okay, evil side) again. He stands a chance if he goes as soon as his "Master" calls... just think what would happened if he would come crawling afterwards? Voldy doesn't appreciate cowardice, and Severus is anything but a coward. So if he appears at the first meeting then Voldemort might be inclined to decide in his favour... if not he has given up all chances of ever coming back into V's circle. Dinah _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 12:28:08 2001 From: corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com (Doreen Rich) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:28:08 -0000 Subject: Is there hope for those kissed by Dementors? Message-ID: <9f81oo+7brd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19889 I know that someone, at sometime, said that there was no hope for those who had been kissed by the Dementors. I have been wondering, though, since Voldemort had old magic that brought himself back from his lowly state, if he can do the same for the demented? He tells of honoring the Lestranges beyond their wildest dreams ... well, what good would "honoring them" do, if they were still in a demented state and could not appreciate it? Doreen, the Corn Patch Witch from Iowa From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Fri Jun 1 12:31:07 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:31:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is there hope for those kissed by Dementors? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19890 > -----Original Message----- > From: Doreen Rich [mailto:corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 8:28 AM > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is there hope for those kissed by Dementors? > > > Real-To: "Doreen Rich" > > I know that someone, at sometime, said that there was no hope for > those who had been kissed by the Dementors. I have been wondering, > though, since Voldemort had old magic that brought himself back from > his lowly state, if he can do the same for the demented? > > He tells of honoring the Lestranges beyond their wildest dreams ... > well, what good would "honoring them" do, if they were still in a > demented state and could not appreciate it? The Lestranges haven't been kissed, just imprisoned in Azkaban, so while they should be in worse shape, mentally, than Sirius was, unless they too are unregistered animagi (or, for all we know, they might be registered ones) they're not soulless. Well, not in that way. Anyone who would torture neville's poor parents is certainly metaphorically soulless From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Jun 1 13:06:46 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:06:46 -0000 Subject: Do House-Elves Guard Houses? Message-ID: <9f8416+lnrs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19891 In chapter 35 of GoF, during Barty Crouch's "Veritaserum" confession, he states how, after Winky was discharged, he lived alone at home with his father. "'Now it was just Father and I, alone in the house. And then . . . and then . . ." Crouch's head rolled on his neck, and an insane grin spread across his face. "My master came for me. He arrived at our house late one night in the arms of his servant Wormtail ." Is there an implication here that by casting Winky aside, Crouch Sr. forfeited protection which might have secured him against Voldemort? We know that house-elves get pushed around a lot, but primarily by their masters; we've also seen that they have a command of magic which often seems more powerful than the magic of human wizards. In addition to their house-keeping chores, do house-elves also serve a "watchdog" function? Logically, it would seem that a house-elf would make guarding the house a high priority. Would Winky have been able to successfully defend the Crouch household against Voldy's intrusion had she still been around? That would make Crouch's dismissal of Winky an even more poignant episode if it left him exposed to Voldemort's intrusion. - CMC From s_ings at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 13:16:45 2001 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 06:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <9f7c44+9he1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010601131645.83050.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19892 Okay, I'm going to throw my 2 knuts worth into this one. The only reading JKR gave in Canada (to my knowledge) was the one at the SkyDome (which is definitely not a bookstore). An account of the reading and the questions afterwards can be found in message #4608. Sheryll --- medusa_975 at hotmail.com wrote: > > Hi, it wasn't an interview, it was a reading JKR > gave at a bookshop. > Someone who posted on Jenna's Unofficial HP Fan Club > site attended > the reading and put an account of it on the forum > there. > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone know which interview that was and > where I can find > it? > > > Personally, I thought the DE who had left > forever was Snape, but > I > > hate to > > > assume things with these books. Any help would > be greatly > > appreciated. > > > > Supposedly it was an interview JKR made while in > Canada late last > > year. It seems JKR was reading from this part of > the book and when > > she said *he will be killed* the crowd went > ahhhhh. She was > > surprised and said not to worry, he (Snape) was > tough. Now, I > tried > > to find that interview and the only thing I could > find was a very > > small article in a newspaper about JKR reading at > a particular > > school. It seems like the school was for some > children with special > > needs. There was nothing in the article about > this part of the > > reading. But again, it was a very small article > and it's possible > > that wasn't even the event where this occured. I > can't even tell > you > > what newspaper it was in or what city it was. I > got this > information > > from someone in Canada. I have yet to see it in > writing so I do > > hesitate to bring it up. Sorry, I know this isn't > much help! > > > > Koinonia > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the > HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for > everyone to sort through the messages they want to > read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read > OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to > join now! For more details, contact the Moderator > Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ===== "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From reanna20 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 13:39:36 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 06:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lighting...and lots of magic In-Reply-To: <9f71bl+f1o8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010601133936.60173.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19893 --- Scott wrote: > Amber wrote: > "Is all the lighting in Hogwarts by candlelight/firelight? That seems > rather unhealthy for the eyes. And Hogwarts must go through tons of > candles (unless they're enchanted of course!)" > > --I agree with Milz that the candles are probably enchanted to last > exceptionally long, and be especially bright. There certainly doesn't > seem to be any form of "elecktricity" at Hogwarts, even in a > magically altered from (since there couldn't be real electricity in > the wizard world). I guess I reluctantly agree. And there's nothing to say that the students don't make their own "light globes" if they need extra light. (Hermione created that blue fire in the winter to warm her, Harry and Ron up) I guess I just don't see firelight to be the best source of light. You'd have to enchant the candles to burn extra bright, burn extra long, and to not burn people or things when they tip over (or enchant them not to tip over at all). That seems like a lot of enchantments/spells when you could accomplish the same by using *one* spell to make a rock glow or something like that. To somewhat break into a Hermione moment, it just doesn't seem logical to me. I've also been wondering more about how magic works in JKR's world (if you couldn't tell, I'm a bit preoccupied with magic! ) I wonder if a spell continues to draw upon the caster's strength after cast. For example, Hermione casts a spell to create a warm blue flame in a jar. While the fire is burning, does it draw upon her magical resources/strength? There doesn't seem to be any evidence of a wizard getting tired from maintaining too many spells. That seems to mean that magic is "free" and the only limitations are on the expertise and will of the wizard to cast the spell correctly. Could Hermione enchant the same jar to burn forever? There seems to be evidence of "forever lasting" spells, or there wouldn't be a department at the Ministry to recover enchanted objects from the hands of muggles. But this isn't always; the cheering spells that Flitwick taught only lasted an hour. But that might be because the students are learning and don't have the magical "strength" to make the spells last longer. So a really strong wizard could make themselves eternally happy? Maybe not, maybe the long-lasting spells can only be held in inanimate objects. Spells cast on people may be different. There seem to be two types of spells: immediate effects (Avada Kedavra, Wingardium Leviosa, spell used by Lupin to shoot the gum out of the keyhole) and long-lasting enchantments (sky in Great Hall, magical teaset). Does a forever-lasting enchantment/charm go kaput when the caster dies? This doesn't seem to be the case, and that seems to suggest that magical energy doesn't expressly come from the wizard/witch themselves. Instead, perhaps there's a "net" of magical energy out there and a wizard's talent is to be able to manipulate that net to feed into things/people. That can make the spells forever-lasting. So, if there is a net is the net uniformly strong all over the world? Is it connected to nature/environment? Is there a way to manipulate it to nullify magic in an area? I don't think JKR has answered these questions yet... Maybe there's *both* a net of magical energy and innate magical energy. But then, how does a wizard control which source is used in spells? How *does* Apparation work? It doesn't seem like one needs a wand to Apparate. Does it take so little strength in magic that the wizard doesn't need the amplification effects of the wand? That doesn't seem right. Or is this a talent inherent in wizard/witches? Like with the House Elves. But there are spells that can be cast to prevent Apparation. So there are spells that are more powerful than inherent talents? That seems rather odd. I must confess, I desperately want to know how the spell to turn one into an Animagi works. What does it involve, spells, incantations, potions? What makes it so difficult? Perhaps JKR will enlighten us in the future. I bet I have tons more questions/speculations but I'll cut off here...if anyone has any other ruminations please share. I know I'm eagerly looking forward to Amy Z's essay on magic in the HP world. I'm hoping it'll clarify things for me... ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Don't ya just hate crappy homepages?...well, here's another! "This body is dying. I can feel it rotting all around me. How can anything that is going to die be real? How can it be truly beautiful?" - Peter S. Beagle "The Last Unicorn" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bbennett at joymail.com Fri Jun 1 13:52:41 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:52:41 -0000 Subject: Portraits? In-Reply-To: <9f75r7+q1pu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f86n9+8js3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19894 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., floridian127 at y... wrote: > CoS referred to the old headmasters on the wall as portraits. > I use portrait to mean professional photograph not painting. I take > my own pictures. Pictures do not talk or visit others, they just > smile and wave. But didn't someone mention the Headmasters visiting > Sir Calahan? I expect paintings to be one-of-a-kinds, otherwise you > would have multiple fat ladies wandering around. What are considered Portraits in the UK? I'm not British, but I draw and do photography. "Portrait" is not a term exclusive to any artistic media. Websters Unabridged says the following: portrait \Por"trait\, n. [F., originally p. p. of portraire to portray. See Portray.] 1. The likeness of a person, painted, drawn, or engraved; commonly, a representation of the human face painted from real life. In portraits, the grace, and, we may add, the likeness, consists more in the general air than in the exact similitude of every feature. -- Sir J. Reynolds. Note: The meaning of the word is sometimes extended so as to include a photographic likeness. Another dictionary (I can't remember which) extended the definition to include words, which actually fits quite nicely with the first definition above ("the likeness of a person"). B From vderark at bccs.org Fri Jun 1 14:04:17 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:04:17 -0000 Subject: Lighting...and lots of magic In-Reply-To: <20010601133936.60173.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f87d1+9joh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19895 I've been working on a page about lighting at Hogwarts for the Lexicon ever since I wrote the page about Filch and noticed the interesting lighting in his office. That's one of the pages that will get added this summer. However, one thing I've noticed is that there doesn't seem to be a spell for some kind of bright, portable light. Notice that Lupin on the train has to come up with some weak, hand- held light when the Dementors came aboard. And Dumbledore, when Krum was attacked in the Forest, could only manage a Lumos spell to look around for him. Now if Lupin and especially Dumbledore couldn't come up with something a little brighter, even in those situations, I think there must be some kind of block or limitation on that sort of thing. Can't imagine why, though. Except that it makes the story better :) Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon now featuring: Atlas of Hogwarts, with photos of the Quidditch Pitch http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 14:32:29 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:32:29 -0000 Subject: Snape at rebirthing? In-Reply-To: <016601c0ea8c$8e43c160$482907d5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <9f891t+5u6v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19896 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dinah" wrote: > Whew! *wipes sweat from brow* I kept out of the discussion because I was > afraid that you'd start to throw rotten tomatoes again , but now I see > that I'm not alone! Though I heavily lean toward Snape not being there, I am open to the idea. No tomatoes from me! > > If Snape really is going to be useful as Undercover again then he has to get > on Voldy's good side (does he hve one? okay, evil side) again. He stands a > chance if he goes as soon as his "Master" calls... just think what would > happened if he would come crawling afterwards? Voldy doesn't appreciate > cowardice, and Severus is anything but a coward. No, Snape is not a coward. But who says Snape can only be useful as a spy again? > > So if he appears at the first meeting then Voldemort might be inclined to > decide in his favour... if not he has given up all chances of ever coming > back into V's circle. > It would seem that if Snape were going to continue spying for Dumbledore it would be best to go to Voldemort as soon as he is called. However, what did Dumbledore ask Snape to do at the end of GoF? Was Dumbledore asking him to go back to where he just came from? Why would he ask Snape if he was ready and prepared? Just some thoughts. At the end of GoF, Harry looks at Snape and finds it difficult to read his expression. Some have taken this to mean that maybe Snape is looking at Harry in a new light. It's possible, especially if Snape was at the DE meeting or if Snape heard first hand from some of the DE's who were there. Oh, one other thought. Surely it is possible that there is a DE or two who is also on Dumbly's side. Though there is something special about Harry, could not someone had helped him escape and Harry just doesn't know it? How could ALL those DE's have missed Harry? Maybe Snape or someone else there did a little magic of their own and prevented Harry from getting hurt. Still, I just don't see how Snape could be there. Koinonia From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jun 1 14:52:48 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:52:48 -0000 Subject: Lighting...and lots of magic In-Reply-To: <20010601133936.60173.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f8a80+krbk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19897 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber wrote: > You'd have to enchant the candles to burn extra bright, burn > extra long, and to not burn people or things when they tip over (or > enchant them not to tip over at all). That seems like a lot of > enchantments/spells when you could accomplish the same by using *one* > spell to make a rock glow or something like that. To somewhat break > into a Hermione moment, it just doesn't seem logical to me. > I remember watching the "1900 House"last year. Anyhow, there was one segment in which safety inspectors came to inspect the converted house and found something like 200 safety violations including the gas lighting, candles, copper wash basin, straight blade shaving razor, etc. I suspect if you've lived in an environment that predominately uses candles or lamps for lighting, you're going to subconsciously be more careful around those items than somebody who isn't used to them. Speaking from my 2 week candle experience, I got used to not setting any papers too near my candles or not setting my candles too near something flammable such as curtains. Maybe there is one spell to extend the life of a candle and to intensify its brightness and maybe it's candle-specific. Or maybe wizards just use ordinary candles. I've noticed that some candles do seem to burn brighter than others. It probably has to due with the wick material or the wax material or both. > I've also been wondering more about how magic works in JKR's world (if > you couldn't tell, I'm a bit preoccupied with magic! ) I wonder > if a spell continues to draw upon the caster's strength after cast. For > example, Hermione casts a spell to create a warm blue flame in a jar. > While the fire is burning, does it draw upon her magical > resources/strength? There doesn't seem to be any evidence of a wizard > getting tired from maintaining too many spells. That seems to mean that > magic is "free" and the only limitations are on the expertise and will > of the wizard to cast the spell correctly. > I think that magic in Rowling's world deals with the manipulation of existing matter. That is, the wizards aren't creating anthing new but merely manipulating the existing molecules and atoms by re-arranging them. Everything is made of atoms and atoms differ from each other from the arrangement and numbers of protons, electrons and neutrons (and a bunch of other smaller units). For example, if you can take an atom of oxygen and if you can add the appropriate number of particles, you can turn that oxygen atom into an iron atom. Re-arranging enough atoms can produce a tray of sandwiches and a pitcher of pumpkin juice out of "nothing". Milz From jenfold at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 15:03:16 2001 From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:03:16 -0000 Subject: Is there hope for those kissed by Dementors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9f8ark+sjle@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19898 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doreen Rich [mailto:corn_patch_witch at y...] > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 8:28 AM > > To: HPforGrownups at y... > > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is there hope for those kissed by Dementors? > > > > > > Real-To: "Doreen Rich" > > > > I know that someone, at sometime, said that there was no hope for > > those who had been kissed by the Dementors. I have been wondering, > > though, since Voldemort had old magic that brought himself back from > > his lowly state, if he can do the same for the demented? > > > > He tells of honoring the Lestranges beyond their wildest dreams ... > > well, what good would "honoring them" do, if they were still in a > > demented state and could not appreciate it? And then there's the fact Crouch Jnr turned his fathers body into a bone. Red herring or red flag for the bone of my father part of the rebirthing spell. > > The Lestranges haven't been kissed, just imprisoned in Azkaban, so while > they should be in worse shape, mentally, than Sirius was, unless they too > are unregistered animagi (or, for all we know, they might be registered > ones) they're not soulless. > Well, not in that way. Anyone who would torture neville's poor parents is > certainly metaphorically soulless I agree with Tandy that the Lestranges haven't been kissed (which is good because I want to see more of Mrs Lestrange). But as for Voldemort's followers that have been kissed. I see being kissed by dementors as the ultimate punishment and therefore I'm not sure that they can be bought back. But if there is a spell that can do this I don't feel Voldemort would want to waste time and energy on bringing them back especially if the spell involved was as complex as the rebirthing spell. Indeed Voldemort sounds as though he spent years trying to obtain immortality through spells and potions which actually kept him semi alive and prepared him for for the final rebirthing spell. Voldemort seems to have a quite callous attitude towards many of his followers, and we know from Quirrel that he doesn't help those who he believes have failed him. And then there's the logistics of getting to the kissed death eaters. Just think somewhere in the magic world there's a stock of souless bodies being kept alive by the ministry, it seems very pointless in a way doesn't it. I discussed this with a couple of people on FF.net and we think that they'd have to be kept in a high security place just in case any disembodied souls or spirits tried to take up residence imagine if Voldie had gotten hold of a soul sucked body and wreaked havoc. However considering the wizarding world's idea of high security maybe it wouldn't be such a problem to get to the bodies. Jen From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jun 1 15:12:12 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:12:12 -0000 Subject: Do House-Elves Guard Houses? In-Reply-To: <9f8416+lnrs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f8bcc+fmrl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19899 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > In chapter 35 of GoF, during Barty Crouch's "Veritaserum" confession, > he states how, after Winky was discharged, he lived alone at home > with his father. > > "'Now it was just Father and I, alone in the house. And then . . . > and then . . ." Crouch's head rolled on his neck, and an insane grin > spread across his face. "My master came for me. He arrived at our > house late one night in the arms of his servant Wormtail ." > > Is there an implication here that by casting Winky aside, Crouch Sr. > forfeited protection which might have secured him against Voldemort? > We know that house-elves get pushed around a lot, but primarily by > their masters; we've also seen that they have a command of magic > which often seems more powerful than the magic of human wizards. In > addition to their house-keeping chores, do house-elves also serve > a "watchdog" function? Logically, it would seem that a house-elf > would make guarding the house a high priority. Would Winky have been > able to successfully defend the Crouch household against Voldy's > intrusion had she still been around? > > That would make Crouch's dismissal of Winky an even more poignant > episode if it left him exposed to Voldemort's intrusion. House elves have their own brand of magic, which seems to be very powerful if Dobby's magic can allow him to 'apparate' into Hogwarts. Perhaps, house-elfs are used as guards. However, in the case of the Crouches, I think Winky was allowed to use her magic to help sedate/restrain Crouch Jr whenever he was lucid enough to fight the Imperious Curse. Furthermore, I think the presence of another magical being in the household served as a deterrent. Let's say, Voldemort showed up at the Crouch residence when Winky was still employed. Winky might have opened the door and the time it took for Wormtail and Voldy to curse her might have been enough time to alert Crouch Sr. to protect himself . Likewise if Crouch Sr answered the door, Winky probably would have been alerted and could have spirited Crouch Jr. away as she did during the World Cup. Actually, I don't even think Crouch Sr. wanted to fire Winky at the World Cup. I think he HAD to because there were too many witnesses and he couldn't cover it up. If he hadn't fired Winky and blamed her for the Dark Mark, there would have been an investigation. Granted, it might not have turned anything up, but that would be too risky for Crouch Sr. Milz From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com Fri Jun 1 15:58:02 2001 From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:58:02 -0000 Subject: Is there hope for those kissed by Dementors? In-Reply-To: <9f8ark+sjle@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f8e2b+36g3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19900 Doreen wrote: >>I know that someone, at sometime, said that there was no hope for those who had been kissed by the Dementors. I have been wondering, though, since Voldemort had old magic that brought himself back from his lowly state, if he can do the same for the demented?<< According to Professor Lupin, "There's no chance of recovery." I doubt even Voldy could pull off a recovery for someone who has no soul. Heidi wrote: >>The Lestranges haven't been kissed, just imprisoned in Azkaban, so while they should be in worse shape, mentally, than Sirius was, unless they too are unregistered animagi (or, for all we know, they might be registered ones) they're not soulless.<< I agree. I think they *can* be revived by V. because they haven't lost all of themselves yet. Though they might be quite a bit mad. Jen wrote: >>And then there's the logistics of getting to the kissed death eaters. Just think somewhere in the magic world there's a stock of souless bodies being kept alive by the ministry, it seems very pointless in a way doesn't it. << Well, there's a different theory that I was only made aware of recently. Credit should be given to Melanie Seibert, as I got it from her, but I really like it. Is it possible that a souless person actually becomes a Dementor? That the result of the Dementor's Kiss is another Dementor? It could work. :) Lyda From monika at darwin.inka.de Fri Jun 1 16:00:14 2001 From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:00:14 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lots of Magic In-Reply-To: <20010601133936.60173.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19901 > -----Original Message----- > From: Amber [mailto:reanna20 at yahoo.com] > Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lighting...and lots of magic > While the fire is burning, does it draw upon her magical > resources/strength? There doesn't seem to be any evidence of a wizard > getting tired from maintaining too many spells. That seems to mean that > magic is "free" and the only limitations are on the expertise and will > of the wizard to cast the spell correctly. I think that once the spell is cast, it is somehow "over". Sorry, I can't say it better. It is as if you light a fire using a match: There has to be some kind of energy to start the process, but once the fire is burning, it burns on its own. The wizard only needs to discharge energy to start it. I always saw the wand as a sort of catalyst, a means to focus and direct the discharge of magic (=energy). So the wizard might get tired by casting the spell, if it is a complex one that needs a lot of concentration, but he doesn't have to maintain the spell. Oh well, I hope this made sense. > Does a forever-lasting enchantment/charm go kaput when the caster dies? I don't think so, for the reasons mentioned above. > How *does* Apparation work? It doesn't seem like one needs a wand to > Apparate. Does it take so little strength in magic that the wizard > doesn't need the amplification effects of the wand? That doesn't seem > right. Or is this a talent inherent in wizard/witches? I don't think you need a wand to Apparate. And I think it needs a lot of strength in magic to do it. But since you do it with your *own body*, you don't need your wand to focus the magic, it just stays somehow inside yourself. I suppose this is the same as with the Animagus transformation. You do something with your own body, so no wand is needed to perform it. The magic doesn't leave your body. And this is why Sirius could transform in his Azkaban cell, there was nothing else he needed. > But there are spells that can be cast to prevent > Apparation. So there are spells that are more powerful than inherent > talents? That seems rather odd. The spells to prevent Apparition seem like force fields to me. Apparition is not "just" an inherent talent, but powerful magic. Think about it. You have to "dematerialize" your body and "rematerialize" it somewhere else. I think the Anti-Apparition spells prevent that materialization in some places. > > I must confess, I desperately want to know how the spell to turn one > into an Animagi works. What does it involve, spells, incantations, > potions? What makes it so difficult? Perhaps JKR will enlighten us in > the future. I hope so, too. I always thought it just needed an extraordinary mental strength and concentration, and maybe an inborn talent of the wizard for transfiguration. Maybe you have to cast a spell the first time you do it, but I wouldn't be sure of this. I think this is really a talent. A bit like a talent for composing music: everybody is able to learn the sol-fa, but only a few people can compose an opera. Monika ------ Book and movie reviews in English and German: http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html From JamiDeise at aol.com Fri Jun 1 16:12:45 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:12:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do House-Elves Guard Houses? Message-ID: <25.162147be.284918fd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19902 In a message dated 6/1/2001 11:14:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, absinthe at mad.scientist.com writes: << Actually, I don't even think Crouch Sr. wanted to fire Winky at the World Cup. I think he HAD to because there were too many witnesses and he couldn't cover it up. If he hadn't fired Winky and blamed her for the Dark Mark, there would have been an investigation. Granted, it might not have turned anything up, but that would be too risky for Crouch Sr. >> I think he fired Winky because he realized what an idiot he'd been all along, thinking he could control his son the DE. Rather than dealing with that emotion, he instead chose to take his frustrations out on Winky, blame her for Barty's transgression, and fire her instead. Jami From JamiDeise at aol.com Fri Jun 1 16:12:46 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:12:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at rebirthing? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19903 In a message dated 6/1/2001 10:59:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, koinonia02 at yahoo.com writes: << Oh, one other thought. Surely it is possible that there is a DE or two who is also on Dumbly's side. Though there is something special about Harry, could not someone had helped him escape and Harry just doesn't know it? How could ALL those DE's have missed Harry? Maybe Snape or someone else there did a little magic of their own and prevented Harry from getting hurt. >> Good point! Very good point. Maybe it was Wormtail. Right from PS/SS, Dumbledore has made a point of talking about the bond that's created when one wizard saves another's life. He used it to explain Snape saving Harry from Quirrell's enchanted broomstick spell because James once saved Snape's life. And later in PoA, to reassure Harry that he'd done the right thing in stopping Sirius and Lupin from killing Wormtail. I was surprised that there wasn't a bigger repercussion from that debt, as far as Wormtail trying to do something to save Harry in GoF. On the other hand, perhaps it's a moral thing rather than a magic thing, and we already know that Wormtail is sorely lacking in those. Having used Harry's blood to "rebirth" himself, Voldy too is now in Harry's life debt. Wonder how/if that's going to come back to haunt him? Jami From joym999 at aol.com Fri Jun 1 17:44:05 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 17:44:05 -0000 Subject: moving pictures ... paintings vs. photos In-Reply-To: <20010529172811.35674.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f8k95+12tm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19904 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > > Actually, Harry's photo, when he was roped into a > > photo op with Gilderoy, did everything it could to > > not be standing in the photo. Harry looked at the > > photo sometime later and saw he was turned around > > and squeezed into one corner trying not to be seen, > > and he commended his photographic image for doing > so. > > > > Indigo > > [who'd prefer a lifesize moving Sirius photo...yum!] > > > The wizarding photographic process seems to capture > something of the emotions of the moment, as well as a > person's physical appearance. Thus, people at a > wedding or other happy occasion wave, Harry tries to > get away from Lockhart, and Lockhart, ever in love > with himself, takes care of his daily beauty regiment > (the hairnets). This is a good point. Magical photos also seem to be like video clips -- a definite series of actions one can watch over and over again. Another difference between magic photos and paintings is that the characters in the paintings are able to talk, whereas the characters in photos do not. --Joywitch From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 18:16:33 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do House-Elves Guard Houses? In-Reply-To: <9f8bcc+fmrl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010601181633.22494.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19905 > We know that house-elves get pushed around a lot, but primarily > by their masters; we've also seen that they have a command of magic > which often seems more powerful than the magic of human wizards. > In addition to their house-keeping chores, do house-elves also serve > a "watchdog" function? Logically, it would seem that a house-elf > would make guarding the house a high priority. Would Winky have > been able to successfully defend the Crouch household against > Voldy's intrusion had she still been around? Let's follow this thread for a while. If house-elves can guard houses and their inhabitants and V. couldn't get to the Crouch house until it was de-elved (so to speak), does that imply that a house elf is guarding the Dursley's home? Is Mrs. Arabella Figg a disguised house elf? I know we assume she's a witch but showing Harry a photo album of her cats does seem to be a Dobby-ishly loopy sort of thing to do. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From medusa_975 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 18:33:34 2001 From: medusa_975 at hotmail.com (medusa_975 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 18:33:34 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <20010601131645.83050.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f8n5u+tplu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19906 Hi, no this was another reading and certainly nothing to do with the Skydome. I think it was in Ottawa. As well as the comments about Snape, she also said that the fact that Harry's patronus and his father's animagus form were stags had a mythological significance.A number of people tracked down references to stags being enemies of serpents.Bottom line, I think the person who posted the account (a regular poster on that board) was genuine. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend wrote: > Okay, I'm going to throw my 2 knuts worth into this > one. The only reading JKR gave in Canada (to my > knowledge) was the one at the SkyDome (which is > definitely not a bookstore). An account of the reading > and the questions afterwards can be found in message > #4608. > > Sheryll > > --- medusa_975 at h... wrote: > > > > Hi, it wasn't an interview, it was a reading JKR > > gave at a bookshop. > > Someone who posted on Jenna's Unofficial HP Fan Club > > site attended > > the reading and put an account of it on the forum > > there. > > > > > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > > > > > > > Does anyone know which interview that was and > > where I can find > > it? > > > > Personally, I thought the DE who had left > > forever was Snape, but > > I > > > hate to > > > > assume things with these books. Any help would > > be greatly > > > appreciated. > > > > > > Supposedly it was an interview JKR made while in > > Canada late last > > > year. It seems JKR was reading from this part of > > the book and when > > > she said *he will be killed* the crowd went > > ahhhhh. She was > > > surprised and said not to worry, he (Snape) was > > tough. Now, I > > tried > > > to find that interview and the only thing I could > > find was a very > > > small article in a newspaper about JKR reading at > > a particular > > > school. It seems like the school was for some > > children with special > > > needs. There was nothing in the article about > > this part of the > > > reading. But again, it was a very small article > > and it's possible > > > that wasn't even the event where this occured. I > > can't even tell > > you > > > what newspaper it was in or what city it was. I > > got this > > information > > > from someone in Canada. I have yet to see it in > > writing so I do > > > hesitate to bring it up. Sorry, I know this isn't > > much help! > > > > > > Koinonia > > > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the > > HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for > > everyone to sort through the messages they want to > > read and those they don't. > > > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read > > OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to > > join now! For more details, contact the Moderator > > Team at hpforgrownups-owner at y... > > > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at y...) > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > ===== > "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup." > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Jun 1 19:07:21 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:07:21 -0000 Subject: "Millennials Rising" - The HP Generation Message-ID: <9f8p59+bieg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19907 William Strauss and Neil Howe have written a series of books (Generations, The 13th Generation, The Fourth Turning) dealing with generational archetypes and inter-generational relationships in American history. Their latest book, Millennials Rising: The Next Great Generation, deals with the generation born between 1982 and the present. Their website gives the following blurb http://www.millennialsrising.com "A decade ago, in Generations, Strauss and Howe predicted many of the youth trends America is beginning to see today. Now, in Millennials Rising, the authors show how today's teens are recasting the image of youth from downbeat and alienated to upbeat and engaged. The authors also show how Millennials are held to higher standards than adults apply to themselves how they're a lot less violent, vulgar, and sexually charged than the teen culture older people are producing for them how, over the next decade, they'll entirely recast what it means to be young and how, in time, they could emerge as the next great generation." They discuss the numerous factors behind these changes, One such factor they touch on all-too-briefly is, of course, the Harry Potter phenomenon. [begin quote] In the late '90s, "in a nation distracted by greed and grandeur, by tinsel and technology," wrote The Washington Post's Linton Weeks, "Americans are making a mad dash to buy books about a gifted boy wizard with a good heart, noble intentions, extraordinary powers, and a lightning-bolt scar on his forehead." These Harry Potter books so powerfully pulled upon Millennials (and parents) that Edinburgh's J. K. Rowling became the first author ever to hold the top three spots, in the same week, on The' New York Times bestseller list. Harry Potter books are classic boy stories. The hero is a regular kid, popular, courageous, stout-hearted, and full of derring-do. Though an orphan, he was spared from death himself (at the hand of an evil sorcerer) by the sacrificial love of his dying mother. Blessed with magical powers, wearing his school uniform (including protective dragon-hide gloves), Harry excels at real-world exploits. He overcomes enemies ranging from bullies and monsters to ruthless and spiritually deranged adults and saves the day time after time. The happy outcomes hinge on well-applied acts of violence. "It's an old story:' wrote Danielle Crittenden in The Wall Street Journal, "but one that, in its various forms, has taught generations of boys to grow up into brave and even heroic men." The Harry Potter stories 'only feel old because tales like these were seldom written for Gen-X boys. (end quote - p. 247-48) Despite their complementary tone, Strauss and Howe, like many fundamentalist and feminist critics, unfortunately give little sign that they have actually read Harry Potter. Given their great popularity with both sexes, their description as "classic boy stories" seems hardly accurate. An odd prominence is given to Harry's dragon-hide gloves, which are mentioned only once, and which do not play a role in the narrative. Perhaps most seriously, they go on to compare Harry Potter to Pokemon, claiming that both Potter and Pokemon foster similar values (honor, loyalty, courage, etc.). However, it has been my experience (I work with children professionally), that Pokemon is pretty much a boys' realm (this seems to be the consensus of my coworkers as well). Few girls have much interest in Pokemon, and even those who do are definitely less intense about it. Also, I've yet to meet or even read about an adult (other than the creator of the series) who could muster much enthusiasm for it. They also fail to mention that one of Harry Potter's most positive effects has been encouraging children to read - surely there are many preteens who would have never knocked off a 700-page novel without JKR. And developing such skills early in life is much more likely to foster a life-long love of reading. Despite my cavils, Millennials Risings, like Strauss-Howe's previous books, is well worth a look. Their MR website has a cute HP cartoon at: http://www.millennialsrising.com/generations.shtml - CMC From indigo at indigosky.net Fri Jun 1 19:31:55 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:31:55 -0000 Subject: Map - 13-at-dinner prediction - Veela In-Reply-To: <9f37a1+ndor@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f8qjb+hm71@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19908 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Indigo suggested: > > >And perhaps the Map only shows Peter Pettigrew to another Marauder > >since *they* made the map? > > That's a great idea, and MWPP should have thought of it, but they > didn't, 'cause Snape sees Lupin on it (ch 19). True. But Snape is potions master. Maybe having kept at it long enough he came up with a solution to foil the map the Marauders didn't think of? > > > 10. Is Trelawney's prediction that either Ron or Harry will > predecease the > > others at the table going to come true? > > Indigo wrote: > > >Eventually. Everybody dies. > > But she says that when 13 eat together, the first to get up will be > the =first= to die, which is somewhat upsetting since one would hope > that the professors, who range from 20 to 140 years older than Ron and > Harry, would predecease them. McGonagall's crack notwithstanding, the > fact that there is no mad axe-man in the entrance hall isn't at all > reassuring, since the prediction wasn't that the first to get up would > die =soon= but that he would die =before anyone else at the table.= I > won't relax 'til one of the others has died (I vote for the sullen > Slytherin, but Filch would be okay. Catlady can adopt Mrs. Norris). Heh! > > Indigo wrote: > > >What evidence do we have that the Veela are worthless? > > >Fleur was good enough [and only part veela] to be picked as a > >Champion for the Triwizard Tournament. > > >As for the other veela? We haven't seen anything of them except that > >they give off the supernatural pheremone that urges men to do stupid > >things to impress them. > > I might quibble with Susan's choice of the word "worthless"--but try > "vicious and bloodthirsty" instead. The evidence is the QWC, where we > learn that if you tick off a veela she's liable to turn into a monster > and try to kill you. Not the most complimentary portrayal of an > attractive woman. > Fair enough. They reminded me of Harpies. > Amy Z > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Asleep was the way Harry liked the Dursleys best. > --HP and the Goblet of Fire > ---------------------------------------------------- From catlady at wicca.net Fri Jun 1 20:01:37 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:01:37 -0700 Subject: Sirius's Bike - Serverus - Homorphus - Draco/Dragon - Map - Loyal Servant - Paintings Message-ID: <3B17F4A1.AE23B054@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 19909 Susan Hall wrote: > I've wondered about the motorbike myself (why did it > escape the attention of Arthur Weasley or his predecessor > in the office?) It was Arthur who wrote the law about not using enchanted Muggle artifacts. Maybe it hadn't been enacted yet in 1981. Rick wrote: > Btw, has anyone come up with some ideas on what > position Snape held as a Death Eater? It has been speculated that Snape was the Dark Team's potion maker -- that perhaps he discovered or perhaps even invented some of the potions used in Voldemort's quest for immortality. Maybe he invented Potions to control the will of people who refused to become Death Eaters voluntarily -- like the Imperius Curse, but not leaving the victim as fuzzy minded. I suppose that Snape was their potion maker, but I believe that V had achieved his immortality before he started recruiting Death Eaters -- that's what he was doing in the years between killing his father and starting his reign of terror (which lasted 11 years [Dumbledore said something like: "We haven't had much to celebrate these last eleven years"], ie started 10 years before Harry was born ie 1969-70). Barbara Purdom wrote: > Although Voldemort does not identify all Death Eaters > present, he does a good job of identifying those who > are absent: IIRC there were other gaps in the Death Eater Circle besides the gap of six whom he identified. I agree with you about coward: Karkaroff, left forever: Snape, loyal servant: Crouch. But JKR is really good at pulling a fast one on me; maybe she meant coward: Bagman, left forever Karkaroff, loyal servant: Snape! Poo, maybe she meant three Death Eaters we won't meet until Book 5! Even if dear Severus is now sincerely and permanently loyal to the Light Side, Voldemort could believe him loyal to V -- Voldemort is not always right about everything. Perhaps Snape, unbeknownst to us, has already contacted Voldemort, persuaded him that his naming names was just a ploy to protect himself, accepted a mission from Voldemort, and done something to make it seem as if he were indeed carrying out that mission. Anyway, I've noticed that those of us who fancy dear Severus imagine that he would find us intelligent, estimable, and worthy of being treated the way he treats Draco (student) or McGonagall (colleague) rather than him finding us dunderheads and treating us like Neville or Lockhart. Catherine wrote: > He says that he is Voldemort's most faithful servant and that > he, personally, never dreamed of renouncing him. I think > that there is some very selective memories going on here. > IIRC, BCJ, when being sentenced by his father screams and > pleads with him not to send him back to Azkaban, protests > his innocence and says that he never had anything to do with > torturing the Longbottoms. (snip) > but I also think that he was resentful of the death eaters > who walked free because they managed to escape the > experience of Azkaban, unlike himself. This is a forbidden "I agree" post: I AGREE!!! I TOTALLY AGREE!!! Young Crouch is a hypocrite!!!! Rick wrote: > Lockhart says he uses the immensely complex Homorphus > Charm to turn the werewolf back into a man. Was that just > for the month or was the man cured forever? If he was cured > forever why is Lupin still a werewolf? When I wondered that, I thought maybe the Homorphus Charm includes wiping out the person's mind (leaving them babbling, having forgotten their toilet training, and unable to recognize their most beloved friends) as a side-effect. Then someone suggested that it only turns the person from wolf to human for one minute, just long enough for the villagers to recognize him so they could go after him while he was in human form the next day. Craig wrote: > "Drakon" in Greek is suggested etymologically to be > related to "derkesthai" (also Greek) = "to see, to look at", > which in turn is related to the Old English, "torht" = "bright". > (No relation to "torch", however, and "dark" is also unrelated.) > The concept would have been "monster with the evil eye" > per Pokorny. My friend Lee says Drakon at one time meant 'guard' as well as 'big dangerous reptile" and speculated that the motif of a dragon guarding a hoard of treasure arose from the idea of the dead man's ghost guarding the grave-goods buried with him in his tomb. "Dragon" as Watcher would fit with "dragon" related to "to see, to look". Emma wrote: > Is it me, though, or is there hope for Draco yet? I mean, > at 14, he's a prat, and we know this. But a lot can change > with a few years. There has to be hope for him yet. I can't > see him going totally horrific. Many of us write Fanfic about how Draco could be brought to the Light Side. I am sure he could possibly turn to Good -- Severus turned at an older age than Draco is -- but I also sadly believe that that is not what JKR is going to do. Melissa Smith wrote: > When we see that Ron has Scabbers, it doesn't say that > he JUST got him- I assumed he had owned him for a > while. So picture Percy owning the rat, he gives him > to Ron sometime before Fred and George get to Hogwarts. When we meet Ron, Ron tells us that Percy has a new owl (Hermes) whom his parents bought for him because he was made a Prefect, but they couldn't afford to buy new things for Ron, so Ron has Bill's old robes, Charlie's old wand, and Percy's old rat. The implication is that Percy gave the rat to Ron just recently, when Percy got Hermes. Btw, I think that Ron having Bill's old robes is because Bill and Ron are the only tall ones (taking after Arthur) of the Weasley boys, and the others (Charlie, Percy, the twins) are short and strong (and probably will become dumpy in later life, as they take after Molly). Bugg wrote: > The mermaid, knight, fat lady, and her friend violet > may only exist within the paintings. This is another forbidden "I agree post": The mermaid, Sir Cadogan, the Fat Lady, and Violet are persons made out of paint, and containing less of the personality of any model who posed for them than a typical person contains of hiser parents' personalities. When a painting IS a portrait of someone, does it retain the personality (and knowledge?) that that person had when painted? If so, can there be more than one portrait of the same person? -- /\ /\ + + Mews and views >> = << from Rita Prince Winston ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com Fri Jun 1 20:30:20 2001 From: cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com (cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 20:30:20 -0000 Subject: Fan Fiction Question Message-ID: <9f8u0s+sv4l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19910 Has anyone thought of or is there already a group for interactive Harry Potter fan fiction? Was wondering this while I was looking through some other interactive fiction sites. :o) Christine From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 21:24:24 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do House-Elves Guard Houses? In-Reply-To: <20010601181633.22494.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010601212424.49456.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19911 I truly believe that a house elf's main job is to be a servant to them...I have never seen any evidence of anyone guarding the houses (except Dobby guarding Harry). But it is possible there is a house elf on guard at the Dursley residence... --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com Fri Jun 1 21:27:50 2001 From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 21:27:50 -0000 Subject: Moody's age In-Reply-To: <9f5jdd+7qam@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f91cm+r2ud@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19912 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > GF 13: "the aged ex-Auror" (that's Rita Skeeter talking, so take with a grain of salt" > > "He's an old friend of Dumbledore's," which admittedly doesn't tell us much about his age, and he's retired. Charlie says "I heard he's been getting really paranoid in his old age." (GF 11) > > He also has gray hair (GF 12). > > JKR could still have toyed with the idea of making Davey Gudgeon the DADA prof. and only later decided that the prof. should be an old > friend of Dumbledore's. > > Just to nitpick: Davey Gudgeon =could= be as much as 6 years older > than Lupin. All we know is that their time at school overlapped. But he's definitely not an old man. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Ah! Thank you, Amy-elf. I ~knew~ there were some descriptives that made me think older, just couldn't recall any. I've just begun my (only!) third read of GoF (it's been on loan far too much), and I'm only up to the part when Bill and Charlie are having their picnic table battles. You're right about the Davey G. bit, too. We know JKR has it all mapped out, but it's still an organic work. Perhaps when she was preparing to begin GoF, she realized something wasn't going to work with DG as the Moody character and had to revise... Kelley From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 21:35:45 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is there hope for those kissed by Dementors? In-Reply-To: <9f8e2b+36g3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010601213545.11452.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19913 Lyda, Wow that is a good theory a "souless person" I mean as evil and disspassionate and scarry those dementors are it would seem to me that they lack a soul. We are never really told what a dementor would be. Perhaps, they are souless ghosts... --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 21:56:07 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 21:56:07 -0000 Subject: Dementors In-Reply-To: <20010601213545.11452.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f931o+el18@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19914 I suppose being soulless really depends on the definition of a soul in the first place. However, I think the Dementors are creatures, certainly magical. Living entities, in other words. There are people who feed off of the energy and emotions of others; these kinds of people are called psychic vampires. I myself have dealt with these people. They instinctively go to places of activity and where there is an emotional charge. It boosts them, gives them energy while draining those around them. Most psychic vampires have no idea what they are doing. Is it so far-fetched to think of the Dementors in the same light? They prey on energy, emotions. I tend to view them as simple preadators. Cunning, certainly, and able to be somewhat domesticated and trained, but predators nonetheless. Just my thoughts. ~Emma Melanie mused: > Wow that is a good theory a "souless person" I mean as evil and disspassionate and scarry those dementors are it would seem to me that they lack a soul. We are never really told what a dementor would be. Perhaps, they are souless ghosts... From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 1 22:13:25 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Percy Weasley Message-ID: <20010601221325.25627.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19915 Hey I was wondering if anyone else here thinks that Percy will be joining the dark side in the next book atleast. If he does turn to the dark side I really think we need to watch poor Ginny a bit. I can honestly see Ginny being persuaded to betray ron, harry, the rest of her family into telling Percy what is going on. Percy and Ginny seem to be quite a bit closer than the other siblings. I also think that when everyone keeps talking about how one of Harry's biggest "fans" we always assume that it will be one of the Creevy brothers or someone like Dobby but what about Ginny? She is suppossed to have a big part in this next book, and she usually serves as a go between or innocent victim. I mean I really don't want to see poor Ginny dying, but I think that is a person that people often over look when trying to figure out who might die. Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 1 22:30:01 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:30:01 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Bike - Serverus - Homorphus - Draco/Dragon - Map - Loyal Servant - Paintings In-Reply-To: <3B17F4A1.AE23B054@wicca.net> Message-ID: <000001c0eaea$65eaafe0$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 19916 >It was Arthur who wrote the law about not using enchanted Muggle >artifacts. Maybe it hadn't been enacted yet in 1981. The International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy dates from 1692 and s.13 bans conspicious magical activity which risks attracting Muggle notice. Under the predecessor statue conspicious Qudditch playing was banned as early as 1362. Flying Carpets ceased to be legal after Barty Crouch Senior's grandfather's day, but probably before Crouch's father inherited the family Axminster. The law that Arthur Weasley was trying to get through (in 1992) was a Muggle Protection Act which may be a different law to the law he drafted with built in loophole to allow him to enchant the Ford Anglia (but not, of course, to fly it), which we have no date for. In any event, the mischief aimed at by these laws seems to be putting enchanted objects into Muggle circulation, not making yourself magically noticeable. So Sirius might not have committed an offence by enchanting the motorbike (if he did - and I'm sure few motorbikes could resist) but would certainly have committed a section 13 offence by flying it. Susan From lj2d30 at gateway.net Sat Jun 2 01:54:47 2001 From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 01:54:47 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley In-Reply-To: <20010601221325.25627.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f9h17+doph@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19917 Melanie wrote: Hey I was wondering if anyone else here thinks that Percy will be joining the dark side in the next book at least. ::leaps in defense of her favorite Weasley:: I most emphatically do not believe that Percy will join the dark side, but I do think he will be tempted or used as a pawn by a superior at the MoM who is on the dark side. His unyielding adherence to rules could possibly be his downfall. As we saw in GoF, he strongly admires rule-following people (BCS) and this could be used against him. However, he is deeply attached to his family. His reaction when Ron was "Harry's Wheezy" was heartfelt and touching. I think his inner- Weasleyness will counteract whatever temptations come around. Trina (briefly) Founder of Percy Lovers Unite! From devika261 at aol.com Sat Jun 2 02:20:24 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 22:20:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley Message-ID: <7f.15346d75.2849a768@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19918 In a message dated 6/1/01 10:01:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lj2d30 at gateway.net writes: > I most emphatically do not believe that Percy will join the dark > side, but I do think he will be tempted or used as a pawn by a > superior at the MoM who is on the dark side. His unyielding > adherence to rules could possibly be his downfall. As we saw in GoF, > he strongly admires rule-following people (BCS) and this could be > used against him. > I believe that Percy's temptation in the next book will come not from the Dark Side, but from Cornelius Fudge and the other members of the ministry who do not want to accept that Voldemort has returned. (I'm assuming that Fudge is not on the Dark Side, but I guess that's open to argument). Percy is extremely dedicated to following rules, and he is also very ambitious. This will most likely cause a dilemma for him when he discovers that his family is siding with Dumbledore and not with Fudge. <> I agree with this. I thought that scene where Percy rushed into the lake to make sure Ron was all right was very touching. I do think that in the end Percy will realize the importance of remaining loyal to his family above all else, but I'm afraid that he will do something along the way that may indirectly compromise the efforts of Dumbledore and co. Personally, I'd love to see more of Percy. He seems to have some issues to work out, which IMO makes him an interesting character. I do think that he will play a larger role in upcoming books. Devika :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 02:49:46 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 22:49:46 -0400 Subject: Snape - Safe at Hogwarts? - Tips for V - Apparition - Lighting - Winky Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19919 Vicky wrote, reasonably: >I always thought the DE that left Voldy forever was Snape. What makes >anyone think differently? Oh, they probably just have too much time on their hands! It's a long way to Phoenix . . . But we all also know that JKR likes to dangle the obvious in front of our noses while sticking the truth in a quiet corner. So some creative and intelligent listies have pointed out that it could be Karkaroff who has "left forever" and Snape who is the "coward." WE all know he isn't a coward, but Voldy might think otherwise. Medusa wrote re: Snape being the DEwhohasleftforeverandwillbekilled: >Hi, it wasn't an interview, it was a reading JKR gave at a bookshop. >Someone who posted on Jenna's Unofficial HP Fan Club site attended the >reading and put an account of it on the forum there. Sheryll then said that it was at the Skydome. In any case--does it make it absolutely clear that she means Snape? If yes, isn't it sweet that she doesn't want him to die either? I find it touching. Dinah wrote: >So if he appears at the first meeting then Voldemort might be inclined to >decide in his favour... if not he has given up all chances of ever coming >back into V's circle. I'm inclined to agree, but I still think Snape has a good excuse for not dropping everything and getting to the graveyard. I know they're supposed to Apparate instantly at their Master's side, yada yada, but if they're undercover that's likely to blow their cover, right? Hey, Crouch doesn't show up and instead of being p.o.'d, Voldemort all but drools over his faithfulness. He makes an exception to the Drop Everything And Apparate At My Side rule because for the sake of the overall plan, it's best for Crouch to stay where he is for awhile longer (and a good thing for V he does too, as it gives him one last shot at Harry . . . though he manages to blow it. When will these people learn to AK first and give long autobiographical explanations after?). Parker wrote: >Sirius says in GoF several times that Harry is safe at Hogwarts under >Dumbledore's protection. We learn by the end that he's wrong, though (one more thing for poor Sirius to feel guilty about). Harry =is= safe at Hogwarts, technically speaking, but only because the plot to kill him requires that he be sent =out= of Hogwarts. And then MEM/BCJ tries to kill him inside the walls and comes within a Kneazle's whisker of succeeding. Sirius doesn't know that Voldy has a man inside Hogwarts. He is pretty sure that no one will try to kill Harry under Dumbledore's nose, but by the end he's losing his confidence--we see it when he's ticked at Harry for taking an evening stroll with Viktor: "you could have been killed." Susan Hall, adding to the list of Helpful Tips for Voldemort, wrote: >"First one to kill him gets 200 bonus points and a free excuse voucher for >the next 20 applications of the Cruciatus curse" would have been more >prudent. ROFL! No doubt Voldemort will post such an announcement in Deatheaters' Daily first thing Monday morning. Michi wrote: >If you can't Apparate at all on Hogwarts grounds then how >would they teach their students to do so? Field trip to Hogsmeade? Steve wrote: >However, one thing I've noticed is that there doesn't seem to be a spell >for some kind of bright, portable light. Notice that Lupin on the train has >to come up with some weak, hand- >held light when the Dementors came aboard. And Dumbledore, when Krum was >attacked in the Forest, could only manage a Lumos spell to look around for >him. Lumos seems to be all anyone would need--IIRC, it sometimes creates a dim light, sometimes a very bright one, though I can't think of the references at the moment. (What determines the brightness? The volume at which one says "Lumos"? Or is it in intensity of need and/or purity of intention, like Eilonwy's bauble in the Chronicles of Prydain?) Lupin and Hermione's hand-held versions are pretty cool too, and they also suggest to me that there are lots of options for portable light. Milz wrote: >Actually, I don't even think Crouch Sr. wanted to fire Winky at the World >Cup. I think he HAD to because there were too many witnesses and he >couldn't cover it up. If he hadn't fired Winky and blamed her for the Dark >Mark, there would have been an investigation. I agree. She's about to be grilled by Diggory and she's not being too terribly stable. He has to turn the issue into one of punishment and punish her on the spot so that Diggory will drop the idea of taking her in for questioning (which he does only reluctantly as it is). Amy Z ------------------------------------------------------ Bumper sticker I'd like to see: I Brake for Animagi ------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Jun 2 03:02:25 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 03:02:25 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <9f8n5u+tplu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f9l01+1rr5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19920 > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend wrote: > > Okay, I'm going to throw my 2 knuts worth into this > > one. The only reading JKR gave in Canada (to my > > knowledge) was the one at the SkyDome (which is > > definitely not a bookstore). An account of the reading > > and the questions afterwards can be found in message > > #4608. > > > > Sheryll > > > > --- medusa_975 at h... wrote: > > > > > > Hi, it wasn't an interview, it was a reading JKR > > > gave at a bookshop. > > > Someone who posted on Jenna's Unofficial HP Fan Club > > > site attended > > > the reading and put an account of it on the forum > > > there. > > > No, it was at a reading that JKR did in Ann Arbor, Michigan just last week at Earth Wisdom, a local bookstore...several have reported sighting her there. She said that there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would ever become involved, that Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been lovers at Hogwarts, and that Crookshanks would play a major role in the Order of the Phoenix. Susan > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know which interview that was and > > > where I can find > > > it? > > > > > Personally, I thought the DE who had left > > > forever was Snape, but > > > I > > > > hate to > > > > > assume things with these books. Any help would > > > be greatly > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > Supposedly it was an interview JKR made while in > > > Canada late last > > > > year. It seems JKR was reading from this part of > > > the book and when > > > > she said *he will be killed* the crowd went > > > ahhhhh. She was > > > > surprised and said not to worry, he (Snape) was > > > tough. Now, I > > > tried > > > > to find that interview and the only thing I could > > > find was a very > > > > small article in a newspaper about JKR reading at > > > a particular > > > > school. It seems like the school was for some > > > children with special > > > > needs. There was nothing in the article about > > > this part of the > > > > reading. But again, it was a very small article > > > and it's possible > > > > that wasn't even the event where this occured. I > > > can't even tell > > > you > > > > what newspaper it was in or what city it was. I > > > got this > > > information > > > > from someone in Canada. I have yet to see it in > > > writing so I do > > > > hesitate to bring it up. Sorry, I know this isn't > > > much help! > > > > > > > > Koinonia > > > > > > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > > > > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the > > > HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for > > > everyone to sort through the messages they want to > > > read and those they don't. > > > > > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read > > > OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to > > > join now! For more details, contact the Moderator > > > Team at hpforgrownups-owner at y... > > > > > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > > > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at y...) > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and > taste good with ketchup." > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From joym999 at aol.com Sat Jun 2 03:04:25 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 03:04:25 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #5 again Message-ID: <9f9l3p+bo2g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19921 Hmmmmmm........ Response has been very slow this week. Now I know you people out there do occasionally leave your computers, and when you do I know for a fact that you either read the Harry Potter books over and over and over again or you think about sex. So, why dont you combine the two and speculate about sex and love in the wizarding world, and send your speculation to me at HP4GUCon at aol.com I have had trouble with my email lately, so I will send you a confirmation when I receive your message. If you dont get a confirmation, send it again. For more details about this weeks contest, check the HP4GU Contest folder in the file section or read message #19881. --Joywitch From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Jun 2 03:16:13 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 03:16:13 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <9f8n5u+tplu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f9lpt+1rvf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19922 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., medusa_975 at h... wrote: > Hi, no this was another reading and certainly nothing to do with the > Skydome. I think it was in Ottawa. > As well as the comments about Snape, she also said that the fact that > Harry's patronus and his father's animagus form were stags had a > mythological significance.A number of people tracked down references > to stags being enemies of serpents.Bottom line, I think the person > who posted the account (a regular poster on that board) was genuine. > Well of course the King Stag does have major mythological significance and represents the Horned God..... Let's see, stags, stags... Hmmm..masks of incarnate deities were often those of horned animals, bulls, goats, stags. Horns were connected with the oldest Tantric believe concerning male vitality. There was Actaeon the stag..THAT's not a good omen was Seigried a stag? Susan From purplefanta at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 03:43:58 2001 From: purplefanta at yahoo.com (purplefanta at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 03:43:58 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <9f9l01+1rr5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9f9ndu+met0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19923 > No, it was at a reading that JKR did in Ann Arbor, Michigan just last > week at Earth Wisdom, a local bookstore...several have reported > sighting her there. > > She said that there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would > ever become involved, that Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been > lovers at Hogwarts, and that Crookshanks would play a major role in > the Order of the Phoenix. > > Susan > > > > Whoa, did I miss something there? Remus and Sirius lovers? Now there is an unexpected twist I didn't see coming any time soon. As for Snape, I completely agree that he is trustworthy, but I continue to wonder (1) How everyone is so sure that he is so, (2) Why he has it in for Harry (besides the involvement his father had with the werewolf incident), and (3) What his "first chance" was. I know there has been speculation on this before, but I am curious to hear if there are any new ideas people have been toying with. Melissa From jearles at berkshire.rr.com Sat Jun 2 04:12:29 2001 From: jearles at berkshire.rr.com (Joe Earles) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:12:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: at rebirthing/interview References: <9f9ndu+met0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00ab01c0eb1a$3d34c740$8115870a@spg.ma.corp.rcn.net> No: HPFGUIDX 19924 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 11:43 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: at rebirthing/interview > > > No, it was at a reading that JKR did in Ann Arbor, Michigan just > last > > week at Earth Wisdom, a local bookstore...several have reported > > sighting her there. > > > > She said that there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione > would > > ever become involved, that Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been > > lovers at Hogwarts, and that Crookshanks would play a major role in > > the Order of the Phoenix. > > > > Susan > > > > > > > > Whoa, did I miss something there? Remus and Sirius lovers? Now > there is an unexpected twist I didn't see coming any time soon. That's got to be a rumor. It's the sort of thing that happens on your average Soap Opera when interest in the plot is waning. I'll believe it when I either hear her say it myself or see it transcripted from a reliable source which, WADR, doesn't currently include anyone on this list. From purplefanta at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 04:22:59 2001 From: purplefanta at yahoo.com (purplefanta at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 04:22:59 -0000 Subject: Some Basic Questions Message-ID: <9f9pn3+52ro@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19925 First off, please don't yell that I should know this already... I am a slow learner. Ok, so I am new here... I have spent the past two weeks or so trying to catch up on all 19,000 or so posts... not doing a very good job. (I am on 825) I know that there has been talk about making a place where one can read basic ideas that have been formulated about certain characters/events/things. For example, instead of reading all 19,000 posts to decide what Snape's motives are, I could just read the basic ideas this group has come up with. My question is, does such a place exist, where do I start reading to understand all that I have missed, and WHAT IS ALL THIS TALK ABOUT THE WAND MIX-UP, cause I don't think I am EVER going to catch up at the rate I am going. Melissa (The girl who read all four HP books in one week, and blames herself for not reading them sooner) From s_ings at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 04:31:12 2001 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 21:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <9f8n5u+tplu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010602043112.97752.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19926 Well, it definitely wasn't Ottawa, otherwise I wouldn't have gone from Ottawa to Toronto (at great expense) for the SkyDome reading. Okay, I may just have to chalk the whole thing up to rumour, as there's no way to check it out. Sheryll --- medusa_975 at hotmail.com wrote: > Hi, no this was another reading and certainly > nothing to do with the > Skydome. I think it was in Ottawa. > As well as the comments about Snape, she also said > that the fact that > Harry's patronus and his father's animagus form were > stags had a > mythological significance.A number of people tracked > down references > to stags being enemies of serpents.Bottom line, I > think the person > who posted the account (a regular poster on that > board) was genuine. > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend > wrote: > > Okay, I'm going to throw my 2 knuts worth into > this > > one. The only reading JKR gave in Canada (to my > > knowledge) was the one at the SkyDome (which is > > definitely not a bookstore). An account of the > reading > > and the questions afterwards can be found in > message > > #4608. > > > > Sheryll > > ===== "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 06:36:22 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 06:36:22 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <9f9l01+1rr5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fa1h6+3h9h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19927 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote: > > No, it was at a reading that JKR did in Ann Arbor, Michigan just > last week at Earth Wisdom, a local bookstore...several have reported > sighting her there. > > She said that there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would > ever become involved, that Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been > lovers at Hogwarts, and that Crookshanks would play a major role in > the Order of the Phoenix. Hunh?? Is this trustworthy? What does "there was no way in hell" modify? Part 1 of the sentence or all three parts? In other words, does your sentence mean: 1. there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would ever become involved, 2. Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been lovers at Hogwarts, 3. Crookshanks would play a major role in the Order of the Phoenix. or does it mean: 1. there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would ever become involved, 2. there was no way in hell that Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been lovers at Hogwarts, 3. there was no way in hell that Crookshanks would play a major role in the Order of the Phoenix. The ambiguity has me lost, but what you've written sounds like the former. If that's so, then I can believe #3 (Crookshanks). I find #2 (Lupin/Black) plausible but really unexpected, out of left field. Yet, it's the first revelation (H/H) that throws me most. In fact, excluding the possibility of an H/H ship would be a major letdown for a lot of readers. If I were in her place, I wouldn't let that kind of info slip out until book #6 had been published, at the earliest. Of course, if she did say that Lupin/Black had been lovers (vs. saying that there was no way in hell that they had been lovers), then there are some serious tidal changes in shipping possibilities for future books. Oy vey. ....Craig, too confused and up too late From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 07:31:57 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lighting...and lots of magic In-Reply-To: <991413400.775.14353.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010602073157.24835.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19928 >I think that magic in Rowling's world deals with the manipulation of >existing matter. That is, the wizards aren't creating anything new but >merely manipulating the existing molecules and atoms by re-arranging >them. Everything is made of atoms and atoms differ from each other >from the arrangement and numbers of protons, electrons and neutrons >(and a bunch of other smaller units). For example, if you can take an >atom of oxygen and if you can add the appropriate number of particles, >you can turn that oxygen atom into an iron atom. Re-arranging enough >atoms can produce a tray of sandwiches and a pitcher of pumpkin juice >out of "nothing". > >Milz Actually that seems logical to me, after what's that line again? "Energy is neither created nor destroyed it is simply rearranged" or something to that effect. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 07:36:50 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape at rebirthing? In-Reply-To: <991413400.775.14353.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010602073650.74025.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19929 >Maybe it was Wormtail. Right from PS/SS, Dumbledore >has made a point of >talking about the bond that's created when one wizard >saves another's >life. >He used it to explain Snape saving Harry from >Quirrell's enchanted >broomstick >spell because James once saved Snape's life. And >later in PoA, to >reassure >Harry that he'd done the right thing in stopping Sirius and Lupin from >killing Wormtail. I was surprised that there wasn't a >bigger >repercussion >from that debt, as far as Wormtail trying to do >something to save Harry >in >GoF. On the other hand, perhaps it's a moral thing >rather than a magic >thing, >and we already know that Wormtail is sorely lacking >in those. >Having used Harry's blood to "rebirth" himself, Voldy >too is now in >Harry's >life debt. Wonder how/if that's going to come back to >haunt him? >Jami I like that thought Jami. Honestly I think it's a magical thing myself. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 07:40:53 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape at rebirthing? In-Reply-To: <991377924.1788.4140.l7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010602074053.21571.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19930 >Is it me, though, or is there hope for Draco yet? I mean, at 14, >he's a prat, and we know this. But a lot can change with a few >years. There has to be hope for him yet. I can't see him going >totally horrific. It seems that JKR tries to have there be a message >about change and the nature of evil...is it possible that Draco might >turn out to be better than that from which he comes? >Hi, by the way, I'm Emma. I'm new. Please don't eat me. *s* >~Emma >>Dave mused: >> I think this is it... I think Snape has been nurturing hopes that he >> can keep Draco on the side of light, and Poppy Malfoy showing >> up at the big DE bash has dashed his hopes. BTW, in spite >> of the lip service he gives Snape about recommending him >> for headmaster in _CoS_, I don't think Draco harbors any >> particular liking for Severus... The Malfoys are just a >> family of slick operators. Oooohhhh....I hope so, I have to say that Draco is one of my fave characters even if he is a prat. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 10:54:06 2001 From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth C) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 20:54:06 +1000 Subject: HP audio books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19931 Does anyone know (thats kind of a stupid question on this list, isn't it?) if Stephen Fry and Jim Dale each did all four books? Because I want to listen to them, and since I can't afford to buy them I have to get them from the library. They have PS/SS & CoS by Fry and PoA & GoF by Dale. This seems kind of odd to me, I always had the impression that they'd each done all four books. We don't need to clutter up the list with this, so if anyone who knows could email me off-list (nizbet_noni at hotmail.com) I'd be very grateful. Thanks, Liz. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From andromache815 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 09:40:06 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:40:06 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dementors, Dursleys, Harry's safety References: <9f8e2b+36g3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19932 Lyda: Well, there's a different theory that I was only made aware of recently. Credit should be given to Melanie Seibert, as I got it from her, but I really like it. Is it possible that a souless person actually becomes a Dementor? That the result of the Dementor's Kiss is another Dementor? It could work. :) I got the impression that once the soul was sucked out of someone, they became more or less, a vegetable, alive, yet not alive, like one in a coma. But even dementors have a conscious hunger for human prey, so I'm not sure this theory would work. Parker: I assume that Dumbledore's OK with having Harry stay at the Weasley's *after* he's spent some time with the Dursleys. Does Dumbledore even know about Harry's ventures out of the Dursleys' protection? Would he allow it if he did? One would think, however, that Harry deserves a break from being treated like dirt for a little while before school started. Parker: Sirius says in GoF several times that Harry is safe at Hogwarts under Dumbledore's protection. I'm sure Voldy can think of some way to infiltrate Hogwarts. He's conniving and cunning enough. He did it four times already. Vicky [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andromache815 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 10:25:54 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:25:54 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA speculations References: <9eolk3+er4t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19933 Robert: However, Dumbledore sees the school as the most important thing he does, and perhaps we should wonder too whether he's just unlucky with the DADA teachers he appoints, or whether he actually doesn't want to put someone competent into that job. Perhaps he distrusts the whole subject, as glamourising Dark Arts and encouraging original-thinking students to practise Dark Magic themselves? I personally believe the DADA class is very important, since it basically teaches how to counter curses and ward off evil creatures. I'm pretty sure Dumbledore thinks it's important as well. I can't say why he didn't fire Quirrell, unless he didn't notice that Quirrell was suddenly acting strangely. As for Lockhart, he didn't have much selection that year. But perhaps it would have been better to just close the course for that year. Or was Dumbledore showing students the danger in thinking too highly of oneself? I'm sure Dumbledore knew Lockhart was incompetent. Vicky [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From blpurdom at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 11:34:43 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 04:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DADA speculations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010602113443.22388.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19934 > Or was Dumbledore > showing students the danger in thinking too highly > of oneself? I'm sure Dumbledore knew Lockhart was > incompetent. > > Vicky > OTOH, Lockhart did have in his books documentation about how to deal with various dark creatures and menaces such as vampires, werewolves, banshees, etc. Even though he gleaned the information about how those entities were vanquished from the people who really did it, altering their memories afterward, the information WAS there for the students to learn from. (Of course they needed to ignore the dreck about what his favorite color was...) --Barb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 12:05:54 2001 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 12:05:54 -0000 Subject: Snape at Rebirth party? Message-ID: <9fakr2+ganj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19935 I want to try and summarize some of the problems regarding Snape's possible presence at Voldy's rebirthing party: First, there are the timing problems. These can be split to the pre Harry's return and post Harry return (that is, return from the graveyard) The Pre Harry return timing splits again according to whether Snape was at Hogwarts or not: At Hogwarts: Snape would only know about Voldy's return when he feels the dark mark burning. Whether he immediately shows it to Dumbledore or whether some time lapses before he tells Dumbledore, he cannot Apparate from Hogwarts. Even if he immediately told Dumbledore and Dumbledore immediately told him to act as a faithful DE, some ten-fifteen minutes had to pass until Snape could Apparate to Voldy's side*. But that means that he would have appeared quite some time after all the other DEs arrived. However, going by the description in the book, all the DEs arrived simultaneously. Not one of them arrived several minutes later than the others. If he was not at Hogwarts (which I don't think is reasonable to assume, BTW) then he could Apparate to Voldy's side immediately, arriving with all the other DEs. Post Harry's arrival timing: This is where the timing problem is conclusive, IMO. Harry arrived to the maze entrance via portkey. Which means that he left the graveyard and arrived at Hogwarts almost instantaneously. Within a minute or two of his arrival "Moody" was dragging him to the castle, getting some of the information he needs already on the way. This walk takes maybe five minutes, maybe less? >From the moment they enter Moody's room to the moment Dumbledore, McConagall and Snape break in maybe another five minutes pass. Also, Harry sees all three in the foe glass a minute or two before they break into the room. Also, Dumbledore later said that the moment he realized that "Moody" had taken Harry he knew he wasn't the real Moody and (presumably) immediately went after him. This means that Snape had maybe 8-10 minutes to Disapparate from the graveyard (and how could he do that without raising extreme suspicion?) to somewhere near Hogwarts, reach Hogwarts* and join Dumbledore and McConagall (and how would he know where they were?). I really don't see how this can be possible. A different point against the Snape-at-Rebirthing-Party theory relates to Snape's actions when Dumbledore tried to convince Fudge that Voldy has returned. It was superemly important to convince Fudge. It was so important that Snape was driven to show his black mark, telling its significance and thereby admitting that he had been a DE. But, if Snape had been at the rebirthing party and seen Voldy returned, why didn't he say so at this point? Surely that would have been the most convincing argument - "Minister, I have seen him with my own eyes!". It doesn't make sense that Snape would admit to being an ex-DE but keep his attendance at the rebirthing party a secret - when the whole point of showing Fudge the black mark was to convince Fudge that Voldy has indeed returned! Naama *I think we must assume that it takes quite a while to arrive from the nearest Dis/Apparating point to Hogwarts, or else there is very little point to the whole Dis/Apparating defence. From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 12:30:38 2001 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 12:30:38 -0000 Subject: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fam9e+i3ju@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19936 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > 1. It occurs to Harry that the Marauder's Map may be a Dark object; it puts him in mind of Mr. Weasley's dictum about mysterious magical objects, and he hesitates to use it, but overcomes his doubts "quite suddenly, as though following orders." What do you make of the pull >the Map seems to have on him? In retrospect, knowing the solution, this is definitely a red herring, carefully planted to raise our suspicions against MWPP and the map. > > 2. If you could buy one treat at Honeydukes, what would it be? Definitely Fizzing Whizzbees! > > 3. What do you think--=does= Sirius get into Hogwarts by the secret > passages? If not, how? Why couldn't he get in in the regular way? If Crookshanks and the other pet cats can come in and out, why couldn't Sirius (as a dog) enter the castle at will? > > 9. Is Snape's vulture-topped-hat cracker favor (a) a plant by Dumbledore, > (b) evidence that wizard crackers magically respond to the psyche of whoever > pulls them, (c ) a coincidence, or (d) something else? The kind of coincidence Jung talked about (did he call it synchronicity?). Probably enhanced by the magical environment. > > > 11. Why does Lupin flee when Trelawney offers to crystal gaze for him? > Two reasons: 1. One of the pieces that make up the Lupin red herring. 2. For the same reason that McConagall said "Tripe, Sybill?" > > Spells/Charms/Nature of Magic ruminations will be posted Wednesday or > Thursday . . . Really?! Naama From lumen_dei at freeler.nl Sat Jun 2 08:13:32 2001 From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:13:32 +0200 Subject: Hagrid in Slytherin??? References: <9f3h58+lbop@eGroups.com> <02eb01c0e9d3$b539a8c0$9771023e@shasta> Message-ID: <000201c0eb60$81f9e680$1a7c74d5@PoorClares> No: HPFGUIDX 19937 Two evenings ago my sisters and I were reading an exchange session between JK Rowling and children. One of the children asked about Hagrid and which house he was in. She gave one of those tantalizing answers of hers about oh, yes this is very important and we shall be learning that in a future book. Immediately I thought of the scene from CoS when Riddle, shadowed by Harry, corners Hagrid with Agagog. After waiting a full hour in the the doorway of the Potions classroom, thus in the dungeons, it sounds like they followed Hagrid even deeper into the dungeon section. At least that is my reasoning from the direction in which Agagog took off when escaping... It seems an indication that Hagrid was in Slytherin, since a student assigned to one of the other houses would have had a very hard time raising a giant spider in the dungeons. And as Harry said of Mademe Maxime..."She's havea job hiding, wouldn't she?" Slytherin does seem a logical place given that Hagrid is half-giant...thus in popular wizarding opinion, already half down the road to evil... And there is a certain bitterness in his tone when he tells Harry in PhilSt that it would be better to be assigned to Hufflepuff than to be in Slytherin. Any clues as to which house he might have been in? My sister would love to prove me wrong...although I am far from proving my theory. Oh, when will that book come! Maria Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop -- "Have Wand, Will Wave" www.geocities.com/lumen_dei [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lumen_dei at freeler.nl Sat Jun 2 10:50:34 2001 From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:50:34 +0200 Subject: Why are they screaming??? References: <9eohaf+7t21@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000301c0eb60$83173d60$1a7c74d5@PoorClares> No: HPFGUIDX 19938 This opens with a contraho charm on all hairnets, thus protecting me if a question about the trailer/book1 seems too OT. I don't think it is, or else I really wouldn't ask...please put that wand down. Another raging debate in my family is about a scene in the trailer. We talked and talked about the three heroes screaming and the scene following it where they are running through a classroom. My theory was that it had to be when they saw Fluffy the first time. There just isn't anything else in the book that coincides with it, and the producers assure us that they are being very faithful to the books. My sister protested: they are not wearing pajamas; I countered that perhaps they thought that was a little too unwizardly and inappropriate dress for such a scene, etc. She muttered something about being prudish... The next problem was tougher: where is Neville if that is a Fluffy scene? Maybe he is just to the left or right and they chose to focus on the three? They just could not omit him from the first encounter with Fluffy; Neville is going to be a pivotal character Does anyone have an idea? It really became sticky when I downloaded the high-resolution Quicktime version of the trailer and could see the whole thing still by still. We are opening a contest at the site: win a "The Magic is about to Begin" screen saver; answer four trivia questions. Studying each still in order to get the best ones for the screen saver, I saw in that excellent high-resolution that Hermione is carrying a school case as she runs. Which distances the whole thing even more from seeing Fluffy? I find it hard to believe they are changing things that much. But we cannot come up with anything else in the books that makes sense. Any ideas out there? Has anyone read anything anywhere about it? Uh, if you are interested in the contest, the page is http://www.geocities.com/lumen_dei/contest.html The questions are easy since we really want the children to have the screen saver... But then, they often do better than we adults! Maria Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop -- "Have Wand, Will Wave" www.geocities.com/lumen_dei [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snowwy54 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 14:36:46 2001 From: snowwy54 at yahoo.com (Susan Snow) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 07:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP audio books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010602143646.5529.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19939 I know that Jim Dale has read all four books because I have a copy of each. I am not sure about Fry. --- Elizabeth C wrote: > Does anyone know (thats kind of a stupid question on > this list, isn't it?) > if Stephen Fry and Jim Dale each did all four books? > Because I want to > listen to them, and since I can't afford to buy them > I have to get them from > the library. They have PS/SS & CoS by Fry and PoA & > GoF by Dale. This seems > kind of odd to me, I always had the impression that > they'd each done all > four books. > We don't need to clutter up the list with this, so > if anyone who knows could > email me off-list (nizbet_noni at hotmail.com) I'd be > very grateful. > Thanks, > Liz. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From SHENmagic at aol.com Sat Jun 2 14:50:55 2001 From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:50:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 934 Message-ID: <7f.1542fd19.284a574f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19940 Jami writes: << >Having used Harry's blood to "rebirth" himself, Voldy >too is now in >Harry's >life debt. Wonder how/if that's going to come back to >haunt him? >Jami >> Ah hah! Wonder if we finally have an explanation for that oft- discussed "fleetly gleam of triumph" in Prof. Dumbledore's eye? --Aylihael (alas, having not even enough time these days to methodically lurk) "When the chips are down, the Buffalo is empty!" From muggle-reader at angelfire.com Sat Jun 2 15:30:08 2001 From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 15:30:08 -0000 Subject: Hagrid in Slytherin??? In-Reply-To: <000201c0eb60$81f9e680$1a7c74d5@PoorClares> Message-ID: <9fb0q0+omk7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19941 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lumen" wrote: > Two evenings ago my sisters and I were reading an exchange session between JK Rowling and children. One of the children asked about Hagrid and which house he was in. She gave one of those tantalizing answers of hers about oh, yes this is very important and we shall be learning that in a future book. Immediately I thought of the scene from CoS when Riddle, shadowed by Harry, corners Hagrid with Agagog. After waiting a full hour in the the doorway of the Potions classroom, thus in the dungeons, it sounds like they followed Hagrid even deeper into the dungeon section. At least that is my reasoning from the direction in which Agagog took off when escaping... It seems an indication that Hagrid was in Slytherin, since a student assigned to one of the other houses would have had a very hard time raising a giant spider in the dungeons. And as Harry said of Mademe Maxime..."She's havea job hiding, wouldn't she?" > > Slytherin does seem a logical place given that Hagrid is half- giant...thus in popular wizarding opinion, already half down the road to evil... And there is a certain bitterness in his tone when he tells Harry in PhilSt that it would be better to be assigned to Hufflepuff than to be in Slytherin. > > Any clues as to which house he might have been in? My sister would love to prove me wrong...although I am far from proving my theory. Oh, when will that book come! > > Maria > Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop -- "Have Wand, Will Wave" > www.geocities.com/lumen_dei > In one of the chats J. K. Rowling gave last autumn, she said that Hagrid was in Gryffindor. Demelza From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 15:35:33 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 17:35:33 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: at rebirthing/interview References: <9f9l01+1rr5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <015501c0eb79$aa0f8d50$6f71023e@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 19942 Susan wrote, > No, it was at a reading that JKR did in Ann Arbor, Michigan just last > week at Earth Wisdom, a local bookstore...several have reported > sighting her there. > > She said that there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would > ever become involved, that Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been > lovers at Hogwarts, and that Crookshanks would play a major role in > the Order of the Phoenix. WHAT?! Now that's exciting stuff--or did they move April 1st to June the 2nd this year? I just finished rumaging through yahoo and google for half an hour and couldn't find any evidence that she's been doing readings in the US, let alone managing to scandalize everybody from the moral majority to our list mom in one fell swoop. They wouldn't happen to sell magic mushrooms at that bookstore would they? Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who would kinda like the story to be true just for its shock value ... ) _______________________ "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high." From pennylin at swbell.net Sat Jun 2 16:07:25 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 11:07:25 -0500 Subject: The Non-Existent JKR Reading in Ann Arbor Bookstore Message-ID: <3B190F3D.D8DB3BC@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 19943 Hi -- For those of you not familiar with Susan's sense of humor, she was *joking*!!! There was *no* JKR reading in an Ann Arbor bookstore last week. And, if there was such a reading, I'm sure Susan misunderstood. I'm certain JKR said that there was no way in hell that Hermione would ever end up with *Ron* since she is clearly destined to be with Harry. :--) Penny From pennylin at swbell.net Sat Jun 2 16:15:56 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 11:15:56 -0500 Subject: FAQs for this Group (was Some Basic Questions) References: <9f9pn3+52ro@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B19113C.FB602C6@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 19944 Hi -- purplefanta at yahoo.com wrote: > I know that there has been talk about making a place where one can > read basic ideas that have been formulated about certain > characters/events/things. For example, instead of reading all 19,000 > posts to decide what Snape's motives are, I could just read the basic > ideas this group has come up with. We have a committee of members who have been diligently working on creating these summaries for many moons now. We're calling them FAQs, but they are really lengthy essays on topics such as Wizarding World Economy, Spells & Charms, Hogwarts, Neville Longbottom, Mythological Creatures, etc. Status? About 60% of them have been written. We have technical types who now have scheduled time to do the HTML'ing & uploading the documents to a website. We really do expect that the completed ones will be available later this month (right, Steve? Paul?). I realize we've been promising this to everyone since last fall, but those of us writing the FAQs don't have the time (or in many cases the technical know-how) to take the completed essays and get them on the web. We've now coordinated all that, and Lexicon Steve promises we are on his schedule starting next week. Hopefully, we will have a goodly portion of our FAQs ready for viewing by July 4th. :::crosses fingers and toes::: > My question is, does such a place exist, where do I start reading to > understand all that I have missed, and WHAT IS ALL THIS TALK ABOUT > THE WAND MIX-UP, cause I don't think I am EVER going to catch up at > the rate I am going. For the Wand Mix-Up, please take a look at the VFAQs (Very Frequently Asked Questions): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Sat Jun 2 16:34:53 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 11:34:53 -0500 Subject: Percy Weasley References: <9f9h17+doph@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B1915AD.A1CE693B@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 19945 Hi -- As another member of Percy Lovers Unite, I'll speak up on Percy's behalf .... Like Trina, I do not see Percy going over to the Dark Side. I see him struggling with the decisions re: siding with his family/Dumbledore or with the MoM. I can even forsee it being a close call, but I see Percy eventually making the right choice. I think Ron is gravely mistaken (and Hermione's right): I think Percy cares very much for his family and would not intentionally betray them in any way. His MoM ambitions are going to force him into some serious self-evaluation though (this will make him a very interesting character in the coming books IMO). He may resist the "truth" (Voldy's return) for awhile. But, ultimately, my money is on Percy making the right call (hopefully without sacrifice of himself or someone else). Percy is also a possible pawn of the Dark Side, but I think he's a red herring in this capacity. I see some of his family members being more likely to be pawns than he is. I guess I see Percy as being too obvious -- a red herring. It would be much more dramatic (though not unexpected) if it were Ron who ended up unwittingly betraying the good guys. Or, even more dramatic and alot less expected perhaps, the Twins. We saw evidence in GoF that Ron and Percy are not the only Weasleys with ambitions. The twins could also fall into that trap. And, someone yesterday commented on Ginny possibly filling this role. I can see that too. We've discussed Percy on & off again for the last several months. A search of Percy in the Archives would be worthwhile for anyone wanting to read more about our debates of Mr. Percy. Penny From devika261 at aol.com Sat Jun 2 16:30:46 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:30:46 EDT Subject: A Crazy Idea Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19946 After rereading the 4 HP books for the umpteenth time, I'm again trying to find new meanings in things that I may not have noticed before...all I know is that I really need book 5 to come out. But anyway, I've come up with a hypothesis, and I thought I'd run it by the group to find out what you all thought of it. Be warned, though, this may sound a bit strange at first, but just give it a chance :) My hypothesis is about our old friend Professor Snape. It doesn't answer the question of whether he is good or evil, but it's still, IMHO, interesting to consider. OK, here it is... Did anyone ever consider the possibility that Snape might be a vampire? I think he could be. Now, I'm not exactly an expert on vampires, but here's my reasoning: 1) JKR has compared him to a bat several times. For example: "Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he? So useful to have him swooping around like an overgrown bat" (Quirrell, SS, Ch. 17, The Man With Two Faces) "How fast d'you reckon he [Snape] could have gotten down to the forest? D'you reckon he could've beaten you and Dumbledore there?" "Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something," said Harry. "Wouldn't put it past him," Ron muttered. (GoF, The Dream) I know there's at least one other bat reference, but I can't think of where it is at the moment... 2) In GoF,Ch. 35, Veritaserum, after Dumbledore has stunned Moody/Crouch and enters the room with McGonagall and Snape, he goes straight to Moody. Finding out who Moody really is seems to be his top priority. Prof. McGonagall goes right to Harry, so I get the impression that her top priority at the moment is his well-being. Snape, however, goes directly to the Foe-Glass, "where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." Why would Snape be so interested in his reflection in the Foe-Glass? Yes, it is a magical object that might interest him, but it seems to me that he is looking more at his own reflection than at the mirror itself. Why would this be so important to him, especially at a time like this? Perhaps Snape is not used to seeing his reflection in a mirror. Since the Foe-Glass is not an ordinary mirror, it would be able to show Snape's reflection, and this would interest Snape if he were a vampire. 3) But if Snape were a vampire, wouldn't he have fangs? Maybe he had them shrunk. It seems to me that teeth-shrinking may have more uses in the books than just as a beauty tool for Hermione. Also, vampires are not supposed to be exposed to sunlight. But if there's a potion that prevents werewolves from transforming into monsters, it's possible that there is a potion that protects vampires from the sun. And Snape is the potions master... There are also many passing references to vampires in all 4 of the books--too many, IMO, for vampires not to be important in later books. This is all speculation, obviously, and it's proof that I really need book 5 to come out . But I thought this was an interesting idea, and I would like to know what you all think of it. Try to prove me wrong, at least :) Devika (whose job prevents her from reading HP all day--the Flying Ford Clinic has yet to decide whether this will reduce her obsession or increase her withdrawal symptoms...) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lumen_dei at freeler.nl Sat Jun 2 16:57:19 2001 From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:57:19 +0200 Subject: Why are they screaming References: Message-ID: <002d01c0eb85$19bbf520$181275d5@PoorClares> No: HPFGUIDX 19947 This opens with a contraho charm on all hairnets, thus protecting me if a question about the trailer/book1 seems too OT. I don't think it is, or else I really wouldn't ask...please put that wand down. Another raging debate in my family is about a scene in the trailer. We talked and talked about the three heroes screaming and the scene following it where they are running through a classroom. My theory was that it had to be when they saw Fluffy the first time. There just isn't anything else in the book that coincides with it, and the producers assure us that they are being very faithful to the books. My sister protested: they are not wearing pajamas; I countered that perhaps they thought that was a little too unwizardly and inappropriate dress for such a scene, etc. She muttered something about being prudish... The next problem was tougher: where is Neville if that is a Fluffy scene? Maybe he is just to the left or right and they chose to focus on the three? They just could not omit him from the first encounter with Fluffy; Neville is going to be a pivotal character Does anyone have an idea? It really became sticky when I downloaded the high-resolution Quicktime version of the trailer and could see the whole thing still by still. We are opening a contest at the site: win a "The Magic is about to Begin" screen saver; answer four trivia questions. Studying each still in order to get the best ones for the screen saver, I saw in that excellent high-resolution that Hermione is carrying a school case as she runs. Which distances the whole thing even more from seeing Fluffy? I find it hard to believe they are changing things that much. But we cannot come up with anything else in the books that makes sense. Any ideas out there? Has anyone read anything anywhere about it? Uh, if you are interested in the contest, the page is http://www.geocities.com/lumen_dei/contest.html The questions are easy since we really want the children to have the screen saver... But then, they often do better than we adults! Maria Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop -- "Have Wand, Will Wave" www.geocities.com/lumen_dei [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 2 17:15:08 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 17:15:08 -0000 Subject: A Crazy Idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fb6us+smfp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19948 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: Hi Devika...we have discussed your crazy idea once or twice..a month...since September (j/k). One day the FAQs will be posted and all the pros and cons will be listed in one place. :waves at FAQ committee: I am one of those who has put the idea forward in the past so I am probably not the best one to sum up the loyal opposition..but it comes down to not liking the idea because a)they don't like vampires, period. b)vampires belong in Anne Rice or Vampire: the Masquerade, not HP c) it's a red herring: having Lupin be a werewolf and Snape be a vampire is too obvious I tend to go with idea that Snape is part-vampire, which some people don't like because according to them vampires have to be dead. There is folklore to the contrary, but the "uses a potion to control it" theory is more popular, I believe. Hmm, :scurries off to create a poll: Pippin You might want to take a look through the archives over at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Snapefans where we are always up for a lively Snape discussion, especially if it's about underwear From JamiDeise at aol.com Sat Jun 2 17:57:34 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:57:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A Crazy Idea Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19949 In a message dated 6/2/2001 1:18:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: << I tend to go with idea that Snape is part-vampire, which some people don't like because according to them vampires have to be dead. There is folklore to the contrary, but the "uses a potion to control it" theory is more popular, I believe. Hmm, :scurries off to create a poll: >> makes sense to me. Didn't Ron speculate after Lupin was outed as a werewolf, that the next DADA teacher would be a vampire? Jami From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 18:18:30 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:18:30 -0000 Subject: HP audio books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fbalm+g9a6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19950 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth C" wrote: > Does anyone know (thats kind of a stupid question on this list, isn't it?) > if Stephen Fry and Jim Dale each did all four books? Because I want to > listen to them, and since I can't afford to buy them I have to get them from > the library. They have PS/SS & CoS by Fry and PoA & GoF by Dale. This seems > kind of odd to me, I always had the impression that they'd each done all > four books. > We don't need to clutter up the list with this, so if anyone who knows could > email me off-list (nizbet_noni at h...) I'd be very grateful. > Thanks, > Liz. Yes, there are recordings of all four books by each of the readers. I have been comparing them from time to time in previous posts. I have been delayed from further interim reports due to family obligations, but I will resume them soon. Haggridd > ______________________________________________________________________ ___ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 18:53:06 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:53:06 -0000 Subject: interview/school readings In-Reply-To: <9f8n5u+tplu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fbcmi+modo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19951 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., medusa_975 at h... wrote: > Hi, no this was another reading and certainly nothing to do with the > Skydome. I think it was in Ottawa. > As well as the comments about Snape, she also said that the fact that > Harry's patronus and his father's animagus form were stags had a > mythological significance.A number of people tracked down references > to stags being enemies of serpents.Bottom line, I think the person > who posted the account (a regular poster on that board) was genuine. > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend wrote: > > Okay, I'm going to throw my 2 knuts worth into this > > one. The only reading JKR gave in Canada (to my > > knowledge) was the one at the SkyDome (which is > > definitely not a bookstore). An account of the reading > > and the questions afterwards can be found in message > > #4608. > > > > Sheryll > > > > --- medusa_975 at h... wrote: > > > > > > Hi, it wasn't an interview, it was a reading JKR > > > gave at a bookshop. > > > Someone who posted on Jenna's Unofficial HP Fan Club > > > site attended > > > the reading and put an account of it on the forum > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > > > > > > > > Supposedly it was an interview JKR made while in > > > Canada late last > > > > year. It seems JKR was reading from this part of > > > the book and when > > > > she said *he will be killed* the crowd went > > > ahhhhh. She was > > > > surprised and said not to worry, he (Snape) was > > > tough. Now, I > > > tried > > > > to find that interview and the only thing I could > > > find was a very > > > > small article in a newspaper about JKR reading at > > > a particular > > > > school. It seems like the school was for some > > > children with special > > > > needs. There was nothing in the article about > > > this part of the > > > > reading. But again, it was a very small article > > > and it's possible > > > > that wasn't even the event where this occured. I > > > can't even tell > > > you > > > > what newspaper it was in or what city it was. I > > > got this > > > information > > > > from someone in Canada. I have yet to see it in > > > writing so I do > > > > hesitate to bring it up. Sorry, I know this isn't > > > much help! > > > > > > > > Koinonia The Globe and Mail July 21, 2000 Renee Huang Discusses the reading that will take place in Toronto on October 24th at the Sky Dome. Also has the following information: Ms. Rowling will also take part in Vancouver's Internationl Writers (& Readers) Festival with a reading at the Queen Elizabeth Theatre on October 25 and visits to two schools in the city. Unless Ms. Rowling canceled all events in Vancouver, she was scheduled to appear and read at other events besides the Sky Dome. As Medusa said, the information about Snape being the one who had left forever and the importance of the stag was originally posted on Jenna's site. The one who made the post did seem genuine in her remarks. After reading the information she posted, I attempted to find what was actually said and was never able to come up with anything other than the newspaper article I read of JK's visit to a school which I described earlier. As I stated, no where in the small article was any new informtion, such as Snape and stag, mentioned. It is possible that this information was done at the other school or the other reading. It would seem that if JKR had made new revelations about the books that some newspaper or person would have picked up on it and we would all know about it. This is the only rumor I ever mention where I don't back it up with an interview. I always point that out! Jenna's site is closed, as far as I know, so I don't know of any way to go over the information in that post. Koinonia From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Sat Jun 2 19:10:57 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 15:10:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crouch? A Vampire? (also, Psych!Ron) References: Message-ID: <3B193A41.1815C5F0@alumni.upenn.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 19952 JamiDeise at aol.com wrote: > Real-To: JamiDeise at aol.com > > In a message dated 6/2/2001 1:18:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > foxmoth at qnet.com writes: > > << I tend to go with idea that Snape is part-vampire, which some > people don't like because according to them vampires have to be dead. > There is folklore to the contrary, but the "uses a potion to control > it" theory is more popular, I believe. Hmm, :scurries off to create a > poll: >> > > makes sense to me. Didn't Ron speculate after Lupin was outed as a werewolf, > that the next DADA teacher would be a vampire? > Well, he was, in a way. But instead of sucking blood, Barty Jr. sucked Moody's entire identity. ok, so he was only a metaphorical vampire. But in that metaphorical way, it could be yet another example of Ron's psychic abilities... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 19:31:17 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:31:17 -0000 Subject: A Crazy Idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fbeu5+9ooo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19953 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > After rereading the 4 HP books for the umpteenth time, I'm again trying to > find new meanings in things that I may not have noticed before...all I know > is that I really need book 5 to come out. But anyway, I've come up with a > hypothesis, and I thought I'd run it by the group to find out what you all > thought of it. Be warned, though, this may sound a bit strange at first, but > just give it a chance :) > > My hypothesis is about our old friend Professor Snape. It doesn't answer the > question of whether he is good or evil, but it's still, IMHO, interesting to > consider. OK, here it is... > > Did anyone ever consider the possibility that Snape might be a vampire? I > think he could be. Now, I'm not exactly an expert on vampires, but here's my > reasoning: > > 1) JKR has compared him to a bat several times. For example: > "Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he? So useful to have him swooping > around like an overgrown bat" (Quirrell, SS, Ch. 17, The Man With Two Faces) > > "How fast d'you reckon he [Snape] could have gotten down to the forest? > D'you reckon he could've beaten you and Dumbledore there?" > "Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something," said Harry. > "Wouldn't put it past him," Ron muttered. (GoF, The Dream) > > I know there's at least one other bat reference, but I can't think of where > it is at the moment... > > 2) In GoF,Ch. 35, Veritaserum, after Dumbledore has stunned Moody/Crouch and > enters the room with McGonagall and Snape, he goes straight to Moody. > Finding out who Moody really is seems to be his top priority. Prof. > McGonagall goes right to Harry, so I get the impression that her top priority > at the moment is his well-being. Snape, however, goes directly to the > Foe-Glass, "where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." > Why would Snape be so interested in his reflection in the Foe-Glass? Yes, it > is a magical object that might interest him, but it seems to me that he is > looking more at his own reflection than at the mirror itself. Why would this > be so important to him, especially at a time like this? Perhaps Snape is not > used to seeing his reflection in a mirror. Since the Foe-Glass is not an > ordinary mirror, it would be able to show Snape's reflection, and this would > interest Snape if he were a vampire. > > 3) But if Snape were a vampire, wouldn't he have fangs? Maybe he had them > shrunk. It seems to me that teeth-shrinking may have more uses in the books > than just as a beauty tool for Hermione. > Also, vampires are not supposed to be exposed to sunlight. But if there's a > potion that prevents werewolves from transforming into monsters, it's > possible that there is a potion that protects vampires from the sun. And > Snape is the potions master... > > There are also many passing references to vampires in all 4 of the books--too > many, IMO, for vampires not to be important in later books. > > This is all speculation, obviously, and it's proof that I really need book 5 > to come out . But I thought this was an interesting idea, and I would > like to know what you all think of it. Try to prove me wrong, at least :) > > Devika (whose job prevents her from reading HP all day--the Flying Ford > Clinic has yet to decide whether this will reduce her obsession or increase > her withdrawal symptoms...) > > Well, at no time in the four books do we see Snape enjoying one of Honeydukes blood-flavored lollipops, do we? It is certainly possible, but I have noticed that just as there is Polyjuice-Plot-Device fatigue among us all, there is even more Unregistered-Animagus-Plot-Device fatigue. I don't think that JKR will dip water from this particular well too many more times. There is already speculation about Dumbledore the Bumblebee, and Arabella Figg, and Mrs. Norris, and Crookshanks, and too many others. Haggridd From madhuri567 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 19:34:38 2001 From: madhuri567 at yahoo.com (Madhuri) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:34:38 -0000 Subject: Crouch? A Vampire? (also, Psych!Ron) In-Reply-To: <3B193A41.1815C5F0@alumni.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <9fbf4e+np8h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19954 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi wrote: > > > JamiDeise at a... wrote: > > > Real-To: JamiDeise at a... > > > > In a message dated 6/2/2001 1:18:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > foxmoth at q... writes: > > > > << I tend to go with idea that Snape is part-vampire, which some > > people don't like because according to them vampires have to be dead. > > There is folklore to the contrary, but the "uses a potion to control > > it" theory is more popular, I believe. Hmm, :scurries off to create a > > poll: >> > > > > makes sense to me. Didn't Ron speculate after Lupin was outed as a werewolf, > > that the next DADA teacher would be a vampire? > > Wait a minute, I thought it was Seamus who thought that the next DADA teacher would be a vampire. I don't have my PoA with me right now, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Madhuri From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Sat Jun 2 20:57:48 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 20:57:48 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <9f9l01+1rr5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fbk0c+msbc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19955 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote: > No, it was at a reading that JKR did in Ann Arbor, Michigan just last > week at Earth Wisdom, a local bookstore...several have reported > sighting her there. > Are we talking about Jo Rowling, or Elvis, here? David From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Sat Jun 2 21:10:47 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 21:10:47 -0000 Subject: Snape at Rebirth party? In-Reply-To: <9fakr2+ganj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fbkon+qgsh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19956 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote: a superbly competent summary of the timing issues > > A different point against the Snape-at-Rebirthing-Party theory > relates to Snape's actions when Dumbledore tried to convince Fudge > that Voldy has returned. It was superemly important to convince > Fudge. It was so important that Snape was driven to show his black > mark, telling its significance and thereby admitting that he had been > a DE. But, if Snape had been at the rebirthing party and seen Voldy > returned, why didn't he say so at this point? Surely that would have > been the most convincing argument - "Minister, I have seen him with > my own eyes!". It doesn't make sense that Snape would admit to being > an ex-DE but keep his attendance at the rebirthing party a secret - > when the whole point of showing Fudge the black mark was to convince > Fudge that Voldy has indeed returned! > > > Naama OTOH, if there was an overriding reason to keep his presence at the rebirthing secret from Fudge (not hard to see if the MOM is suspected of leaks), he would not mention the dark mark at all - leading to the same conclusion that he wasn't there. David From mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 21:45:10 2001 From: mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com (Michi) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crouch? A Vampire? (also, Psych!Ron) In-Reply-To: <3B193A41.1815C5F0@alumni.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <20010602214510.4803.qmail@web3205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19957 --- heidi wrote: > > << I tend to go with idea that Snape is > part-vampire, which some > > people don't like because according to them > vampires have to be dead. > > There is folklore to the contrary, but the > "uses a potion to control > > it" theory is more popular, I believe. Hmm, > :scurries off to create a > > poll: >> ::reverting back to the Snape/Vampire theory:: Uu~m... I'd like to go with the theory personally but Snape is up and about during the day. Didn't he ref one of the Quidditch matches during PS/SS ? Perhaps Snapey is another unregistered Animagus? (Geez. If so, the Ministry of Magic isn't doing a very good job of keeping track of their Animagi, are they? :) Michi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 22:02:49 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:02:49 -0000 Subject: A Crazy Idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fbnq9+fnl4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19958 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > Did anyone ever consider the possibility that Snape might be a vampire? As foxmoth has said, you must go to snapefans and do some research on this subject. You will find people either love this idea or hate it. Also, if for some reason Snape is a vampire and turns into a bat, that would not make him an animagus. I do believe when you look at this possibility you have to throw everything you have ever heard about vampires out the window. Koinonia From swirlyspike at yahoo.com Sat Jun 2 22:34:25 2001 From: swirlyspike at yahoo.com (Swirly Head) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:34:25 -0000 Subject: A Crazy Idea In-Reply-To: <9fbnq9+fnl4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fbplh+2h28@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19959 I think that probably JK Rowling is just using the bat metaphor to describe how Snape is. To me he sounds slightly Gothy, very dark and so on....but not a vampire. I personally hope that a vampire does feature in an upcoming book. As a Buffy fan I'd be interested to see what JKR makes of them. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 2 22:51:12 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:51:12 -0000 Subject: Bad Orb Clouding (filk) Message-ID: <9fbql0+1c21@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19960 Bad Orb Clouding (To the tune of Bad Moon Rising) Dedicated to Parker THE SCENE: Divination Class. Enter PROFESSOR TRELAWNEY TRELAWNEY I see a bad orb aclouding I see in tea leaves TNT I see catastrophes acrowding I see Binky's history The ball is round tonight For we who have the Sight The future is full of awful fright. I see through a bad orb darkly I see a bad Harry day I see his fate unveiled starkly I see Potter returned to clay Harry has the Grim In hot pursuit of him His prospects are lookin' mighty dim Look at the stars and their dynamics Saturn is making me nonplussed Hope Neville won't break my ceramics Hope Ron's won't pun on Uranus Please don't seat thirteen Well, the first one off the scene Might have a loss of self-esteem Minerva says it tripe But we all know her type She oughta learn to shut her pipe - CMC From kiary91 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 00:27:07 2001 From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 00:27:07 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do House-Elves Guard Houses? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19961 Sure! Not watchdog in the sense of a guard or protection dog, but certainly an alert dog! My two corgis (obedience trained, reasonably well behaved for their ages (10 and 7 months) dogs, make the most ferocious sounding noise when one of my roommates had to 'break in' to the apartment (by coming over the patio fence- we're on the first floor) after locking himself out. Also, there's the tale of the burgler who got himself cornered in a bathroom by a particularly ambitious corgi. When the police arrived to take him away, he positively sang about the 'ferocious and dangerous dwarf german shepherd' the people were hiding in their house. Cait and corgis (Taikoubou and Wenna) Oh yes! Anyone in Austin, San Antonio or central Texas want to get together next weekend? We're going down for a flyball tournament in Hutto and it'd be cool to have a meet! (Can send details by email if anyone's interested!) >From: "Caius Marcius" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do House-Elves Guard Houses? >Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:06:46 -0000 > >In chapter 35 of GoF, during Barty Crouch's "Veritaserum" confession, >he states how, after Winky was discharged, he lived alone at home >with his father. > >"'Now it was just Father and I, alone in the house. And then . . . >and then . . ." Crouch's head rolled on his neck, and an insane grin >spread across his face. "My master came for me. He arrived at our >house late one night in the arms of his servant Wormtail." > >Is there an implication here that by casting Winky aside, Crouch Sr. >forfeited protection which might have secured him against Voldemort? >We know that house-elves get pushed around a lot, but primarily by >their masters; we've also seen that they have a command of magic >which often seems more powerful than the magic of human wizards. In >addition to their house-keeping chores, do house-elves also serve >a "watchdog" function? Logically, it would seem that a house-elf >would make guarding the house a high priority. Would Winky have been >able to successfully defend the Crouch household against Voldy's >intrusion had she still been around? > >That would make Crouch's dismissal of Winky an even more poignant >episode if it left him exposed to Voldemort's intrusion. > > - CMC > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 00:35:08 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 20:35:08 -0400 Subject: a delay on the Hogwarts Express Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19962 Hello all, I have to apologize for being so late with this week's topic, Spells/Charms and the nature of magic, that it's going to be chugging into the station around the same time as next week's topic. Real life (yes, I do have one) intervened, and even though I'm almost done writing it, I'm not going to be able to wrap it up until Monday. I humbly beg your forgiveness and hope you will keep in mind that train delays can lead to great things . . . Amy Z _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Jun 3 00:50:58 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 00:50:58 -0000 Subject: The Non-Existent JKR Reading in Ann Arbor Bookstore In-Reply-To: <3B190F3D.D8DB3BC@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9fc1li+6c0p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19963 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote: > Hi -- > > For those of you not familiar with Susan's sense of humor, she was > *joking*!!! There was *no* JKR reading in an Ann Arbor bookstore last > week. > > And, if there was such a reading, I'm sure Susan misunderstood. I'm > certain JKR said that there was no way in hell that Hermione would ever > end up with *Ron* since she is clearly destined to be with Harry. :--) > > Penny That was VERY kind, Penny...she did not say Susan's "sense of humor". Mea culpa everyone. I tried to post again to say that it was my twisted sense of humor but Yahoo would not let me on. Just my account or did anyone else have problems. Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Jun 3 00:56:12 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 00:56:12 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview/Croookshanks In-Reply-To: <015501c0eb79$aa0f8d50$6f71023e@shasta> Message-ID: <9fc1vc+5ign@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19964 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" wrote: > Susan wrote, > > > No, it was at a reading that JKR did in Ann Arbor, Michigan just last > > week at Earth Wisdom, a local bookstore...several have reported > > sighting her there. > > > > She said that there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would > > ever become involved, that Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been > > lovers at Hogwarts, and that Crookshanks would play a major role in > > the Order of the Phoenix. > > WHAT?! Now that's exciting stuff--or did they move April 1st to June the 2nd > this year? I just finished rumaging through yahoo and google for half an > hour and couldn't find any evidence that she's been doing readings in the > US, let alone managing to scandalize everybody from the moral majority to > our list mom in one fell swoop. > > They wouldn't happen to sell magic mushrooms at that bookstore would they? > > Baaaaaa! > > Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who would kinda like the story to be > true just for its shock value ... ) > _______________________ > > "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising > inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, > but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high." I was of course referring to some uh, slight disagreements, that we have had on the list...also the discussion of when JKR said something and where was beginning to sound like Elvis sightings to me.....so in my twisted mind I conjured up JKR popping up at a bookstore in Ann Arbor (could be Crazy Wisdom or Earth Wisdom both exist), also we have the home of Borders which used to be one of the most wonderful stores in the world until it spread everywhere and became crappy.... so anyway I had this fantasy she would pop up and talk with people and ....so it goes... But what about Crookshanks? That cat's role in the PoA was significant What is the cat's future role? Susan From sfysh at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 3 01:18:19 2001 From: sfysh at sympatico.ca (sfysh at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 01:18:19 -0000 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <9fc38r+2a9l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19965 I'm a new member to the group. My name is Stephanie, I'm 35 years old, and I'm an editor in Toronto, Canada. I read the first Harry Potter about the time that the second one came out in paperback -- and now own the third and fourth in hardcover, plus the textbooks. My husband's a fan too. I have three children, and the oldest, who is almost 7 and in Grade 1, is reading the second book on his own. I'm busy planning a Harry Potter birthday party for him. Because I'm also busy working a lot, I doubt you'll hear much from me after this until the movie is out, but I'm looking forward to listening in on some adult-level discussion of the books. -- Stephanie From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 01:58:29 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] a delay on the Hogwarts Express In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010603015829.94943.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19966 Hi Amy, I'm not upset. As I wait for the best things to happen, I find that it is worth the wait! I'm still going through the summaries myself. My kids have been keeping me sidetracked. And my Dad was over today to enjoy some western movies. Will keep checking the posts. Wanda --- Amy Z wrote: > Hello all, > > I have to apologize for being so late with this > week's topic, Spells/Charms > and the nature of magic, that it's going to be > chugging into the station > around the same time as next week's topic. Real > life (yes, I do have one) > intervened, and even though I'm almost done writing > it, I'm not going to be > able to wrap it up until Monday. I humbly beg your > forgiveness and hope you > will keep in mind that train delays can lead to > great things . . . > > Amy Z > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From s_ings at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 02:17:38 2001 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 19:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:interview/school readings In-Reply-To: <9fbcmi+modo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010603021738.72082.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19967 --- koinonia02 at yahoo.com wrote: > The Globe and Mail > July 21, 2000 > Renee Huang > > Discusses the reading that will take place in > Toronto on October 24th > at the Sky Dome. Also has the following > information: > > Ms. Rowling will also take part in Vancouver's > Internationl Writers > (& Readers) Festival with a reading at the Queen > Elizabeth Theatre on > October 25 and visits to two schools in the city. > > Unless Ms. Rowling canceled all events in Vancouver, > she was > scheduled to appear and read at other events besides > the Sky Dome. > > As Medusa said, the information about Snape being > the one who had > left forever and the importance of the stag was > originally posted on > Jenna's site. The one who made the post did seem > genuine in her > remarks. After reading the information she posted, > I attempted to > find what was actually said and was never able to > come up with > anything other than the newspaper article I read of > JK's visit to a > school which I described earlier. As I stated, no > where in the small > article was any new informtion, such as Snape and > stag, mentioned. > It is possible that this information was done at the > other school or > the other reading. It would seem that if JKR had > made new revelations > about the books that some newspaper or person would > have picked up on > it and we would all know about it. This is the only > rumor I ever > mention where I don't back it up with an interview. > I always point > that out! Jenna's site is closed, as far as I know, > so I don't know > of any way to go over the information in that post. > > Koinonia Thanks for filling in all the details you have. Vancouver news doesn't generally make it as far as the Ottawa papers and I don't read the Globe and Mail (though it is available here). For curiosity sake, I will probably check out the Vancouver papers next time I have a free moment at the National Library. I'll let you all know if anything turns up that will verify what was said at any Vancouver events. Sheryll ===== "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 02:43:56 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:43:56 -0400 Subject: Percy's height, Whizzbees' ingredients Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19968 Catlady wrote: >Btw, I think that Ron having Bill's old robes is because Bill and Ron are >the only >tall ones (taking after Arthur) of the Weasley boys, and the others >(Charlie, Percy, the twins) are short and strong (and probably will >become dumpy in later life, as they take after Molly). Voice from L.O.O.N. pipes up: Percy is also built like Ron. "Charlie was built like the twins, shorter and stockier than Percy and Ron, who were both long and lanky" (GF 5; the next paragraph is the one that tells us that Bill is also tall). Since Molly is short and pudgy and Arthur is tall, we've got them all sorted out except Ginny. All we know about her is that she's "small" at age 10, which doesn't tell us much. (My Quidditch anti-stereotyping is also pleased by a Seeker who's built like his Beater brothers. Harry has the ideal Seeker build, I grant you, but you don't have to be small and skinny to be a great Seeker.) BTW, at least two people have said that their choice of a Honeydukes treat would be a Fizzing Whizzbee. I grow concerned. Haven't you people read _Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, A History_? Amy Z -------------------------------------------- The clock on Lupin's wall . . . had twelve divisions, ranging from Sound Asleep to Murderous Intent And No Human Conscience. -Amanita Lestrange, "Fool's Paradise" -------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Jun 3 02:45:26 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 02:45:26 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <9fa1h6+3h9h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fc8c6+ptbu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19969 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote: > > > > No, it was at a reading that JKR did in Ann Arbor, Michigan just > > last week at Earth Wisdom, a local bookstore...several have reported > > sighting her there. > > > > She said that there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would > > ever become involved, that Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been > > lovers at Hogwarts, and that Crookshanks would play a major role in > > the Order of the Phoenix. > > Hunh?? Is this trustworthy? What does "there was no way in hell" > modify? Part 1 of the sentence or all three parts? > > In other words, does your sentence mean: > > 1. there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would ever > become involved, > 2. Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been lovers at Hogwarts, > 3. Crookshanks would play a major role in the Order of the Phoenix. > > or does it mean: > > 1. there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would ever > become involved, > 2. there was no way in hell that Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had > been lovers at Hogwarts, > 3. there was no way in hell that Crookshanks would play a major role > in the Order of the Phoenix. > > > The ambiguity has me lost, but what you've written sounds like the > former. If that's so, then I can believe #3 (Crookshanks). I find > #2 (Lupin/Black) plausible but really unexpected, out of left field. > Yet, it's the first revelation (H/H) that throws me most. In fact, > excluding the possibility of an H/H ship would be a major letdown for > a lot of readers. If I were in her place, I wouldn't let that kind > of info slip out until book #6 had been published, at the earliest. > Oh, c'mon, do you mean that some people wouldn't buy the next books if H/H were shown to be a doomed possibility? I don't think so! > Of course, if she did say that Lupin/Black had been lovers (vs. > saying that there was no way in hell that they had been lovers), > then there are some serious tidal changes in shipping possibilities > for future books. Oy vey. > > ....Craig, too confused and up too late Ibis redibis in numquam armis peribis. I'm tempted to leave it at that, but have perhaps indulged myself too much lately. And I'm sorry I confused you Craig..... Now I have to apologize for poor grammar, too! Sigh... Anyway, the original post was accurately interpeted by Penny the Great, List Mother and Real Mother, who understood that I was trying to say that JKR said there: Was no way in hell H/H had ever been involved...that yes Remus and Lupin were involved, and yes, Crookshanks would play a major role.. and that Remus and Sirius had been lovers at Hogwarts [Is this so far fetched really? (For those women who would like to keep their fantasies about Lupin and Black as close to reality as possible....remember it's quite common for boys to "experiment" with each other and then get involved with women later, and bisexuality is not all that uncommon either!) Neither Lupin nor Black have been linked with a woman, and they are very close emotionally) Susan and by the way, Ann Arbor is just 30 minutes from Canada..she could have slipped across the border.......... From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Jun 3 02:55:33 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 02:55:33 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #4 Results In-Reply-To: <9f6jjd+18gc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fc8v5+d489@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19970 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > This week's contest was to identify who spoke the various Famous Last > Lines submitted by our resident genius, CMC. (How about that > Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration filk!!!!) > Please, please...I've been away for too long..someone point me in the direction of that filk -- where is it? From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 3 03:09:20 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 03:09:20 -0000 Subject: Percy and Ginny- the lost Weasleys? Message-ID: <9fc9p0+ods5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19971 This may sound like a forbidden "ME TOO!" post, but it isn't. Keep reading. As a card carrying member of "Percy Lovers Unite" I'll agree with Penny, and Trina, and Devika. I really don't think that Percy will go dark, though he's bound to be tempted to believe in Fudge and the postion of the MoM. Percy was in Gryffindor mind you, and there is certainly more to him than ambition. His family is obviously important to him, but he's not a free spirit like the other Weasleys. He's not into practical jokes, but that doesn't make him dark, just serious, which, being a very serious-minded person myself, isn't always a bad thing. He's a lot like Molly, and I'd venture to say that though she loves all her children very much she has a special place for Percy. If you want to know more about Percy I, like Penny, suggest checking the archives, we've talked about him rather much lately. As for Ginny, well um....erm...uh...What's there to say really. I just don't like her, but I hardly think she is going to be consorting with the dark side. I like Fanon Ginny quite a lot, but I'd say that everyone, even the H/G shippers, think she needs more characterisation before becoming an important part of the story. In CoS she wasn't exactly working for great good, but it wasn't by her own will, and it wasn't that she was *bad*. She was a plot device. I imagine Ginny is quite a nice girl, and could be so much more than a plot device. I'd love to see more of her. Scott From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Jun 3 03:13:47 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 03:13:47 -0000 Subject: Evil--Lewis and JKR In-Reply-To: <9f5im3+h02j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fca1b+k5lk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19972 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > I think what set *my* bells off is when McGonagall says to > Dumbledore > > in the first chapter of PS/SS that Voldemort was only afraid of > Albus > > Dumbledore. "You flatter me, my dear...Voldemort had powers I never > > will." "Only because you're too *noble* to use them," McGonagall > > shoots back. Well, wouldn't this imply that people who break the > > rules are the ones with the real power? Amy Z says:> > Evil has power that good will never have; torture and terrorism, for > example, are undeniably powerful weapons. Dumbledore cannot use them, > not because he doesn't know how but because he is too good. > > That doesn't mean that evil is ultimately more powerful, however. > Good has power that evil does not. "Hatred will never cease by > hatred, but only by love" (The Dhammapada, a Theravada Buddhist text). > If Voldemort is to be truly overcome, it will have to be by those who > refuse to use his own weapons. Otherwise he will be crushed, but the > evil he practices will continue to thrive. One can't defeat the > enemy with the enemy's means. JKR is clearly not writing a novel of > Gandhian nonviolence, but she does assert that some forms of violence > cross the line, e.g. Aurors killing when there are less extreme > measures at their disposal, and she has one of the heroes, Sirius, say > that this can be just as bad as being a Death Eater--strong words (GF > 27). > > Good people often have to sacrifice themselves to remain good; > Christians (and Buddhists, too, in a different sense) believe that > this sacrifice itself has a power that will overcome evil. Thus Aslan > on the Stone Table (not to mention Jesus going quietly to his > crucifixion) . . . the Witch is defeated because she believes that > killing Aslan will bring her victory. What she doesn't understand is > that the self-sacrifice of a willing victim will defeat the one who > kills him. That, at least, is the Christian belief, as I understand > it. > Well, and it's the pagan belief. Of course, blood letting releases magical power to be used, but any moral pagan would never use it. The cost to pagans would be too high because once you use/invoke evil, it comes back upon you threefold, and you become corrupt, evil (and unhappy imho). But the royal sacrifice, the willing sacrifice, unleases tremendous power that can be used for good (some pagans believe that the Spanish Armada, and Hitler's invasion of Britain were turned back by such sacrifices) In a more mundane sense, tyrants who kill patriotic leaders soon find themselves out of a job because the leaders have become martyrs and their deaths have inspired their followers. True courage and resistance to tyranny always inspire others. In addition, we have examples of the French and Russian Revolutions where the revolutionists started using the weapons of the oppressors, and themselves became oppressors. Susan From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 3 03:14:12 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 3 Jun 2001 03:14:12 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <991538052.90.20265.j4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19973 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: Pippin's Poll: "Inquiring Minds Want To Know...Is Snape A Vampire?" o Yes, he uses a potion to conceal it. o Yes, he's part vampire, part human. o No, the vampire references are a red herring. o (Unofficial choice) No, he's a Moderator. Same sort of blood-sucking fiend/daemon, right? To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 03:19:32 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid in Slytherin??? In-Reply-To: <000201c0eb60$81f9e680$1a7c74d5@PoorClares> Message-ID: <20010603031932.93964.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19974 Um didn't Hagrid say that he was a gryffindor at the beginning of book Sorcerer/Philosopher's stone..I was pretty sure that he did...but I guess I could be wrong...I always wondered about Sirius actually. I thought it would be an interesting twist for him to be Slytherin. The only fact that I have to back this up is some statement that was said during POA that all of the deatheaters were from Slytherin while they still were thinking that Sirius was a deatheater. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Jun 3 03:19:47 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 03:19:47 -0000 Subject: Evil--Lewis and JKR morality In-Reply-To: <9f5u4g+e7gi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fcacj+rtpm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19975 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > What it implies to me is that Dumbledore is too *humble* to use > the powers that Voldemort has. He doesn't use his powers to force > other people to do what *he* thinks is right or punish them for not > agreeing with him. > There's also a respect for human dignity in Dumbledore and JKR > that has no desire to see others humiliated even if they are evil. I > think some of Rowling's critics are like Filch, they want to see some * > punishment* (emphasis Rowling's). I think the bouncing ferret incident > and the ton-tongue toffee episode show us what Rowling thinks of that > idea. It may be satisfying to watch the bad guys humiliated, but it > will only make things harder in the end. Whew..i couldn't agree more. If Dumbledore used the mechanisms that Voldemort does (terror, torture, murder), he would become like Voldemort and lose himself (in some ways just as Barty Crouch, Senior did) > I definitely agree with what Amy Z said about the power of Love. > As an individual, Voldemort has more power than any other wizard, but > because he cannot love, his enemies can and will unite to wield a > power he can never use or understand. Exactly. And his enemies love one another. That is a very strong power. May it prevail always.. > > I would say that while I am sure Voldemort's fall will be so low > that none can foresee his arising again, I can see Draco Malfoy not > quite getting his just desserts, but slipping through the net as his > father once did, surviving to donate a share of his derived-from- > exploited- House-elves-if-not-positively ill-gotten gains to worthy > causes, sitting on the boards of St. Mungo's and Hogwarts, and > occasionally using his influence to settle a personal score or two. yes, i can see that as well. Voldemort will fall, but at a great cost. > > Pippin From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 03:24:55 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 03:24:55 -0000 Subject: DADA vampires Message-ID: <9fcam7+2fdt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19976 Jami wrote: > makes sense to me. Didn't Ron speculate after Lupin was outed as a werewolf, > that the next DADA teacher would be a vampire? > Heidi wrote: >Well, he was, in a way. But instead of sucking blood, Barty Jr. sucked Moody's >entire identity. ok, so he was only a metaphorical vampire. But in that >metaphorical way, it could be yet another example of Ron's psychic abilities... I love it--the metaphorical vampire and the psychic Ron, both. It was Dean, though. Amy Z whose inner nitpicker goes into overdrive when she has work to do -------------------------------------- "But won't they notice if you shut your ears in the oven door?" "Dobby doubts it, sir." -HP and the Chamber of Secrets -------------------------------------- From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Jun 3 03:30:35 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 03:30:35 -0000 Subject: "Millennials Rising" - The HP Generation In-Reply-To: <9f8p59+bieg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fcb0r+jb1j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19977 > Despite their complementary tone, Strauss and Howe, like many > fundamentalist and feminist critics, unfortunately give little sign > that they have actually read Harry Potter Did you mean complimentary tone? And by the way, this feminist critic (who is seriously unhappy at being coupled with fundamentalists) has read the HP books many times. They are primarily about men and boys, after all. This does not make them less wonderful or engaging. Susan From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 03:33:26 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 03:33:26 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy and Ginny- the lost Weasleys? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19978 Scott wrote: >As a card carrying member of "Percy Lovers Unite" I'll agree with >Penny, and Trina, and Devika. I really don't think that Percy will go >dark, though he's bound to be tempted to believe in Fudge and the >postion of the MoM. > Count me in the Percy Fan Club. The world needs its Percys just as much as any other type. He cracks me up... it's a bit like laughing at myself... and how dare anyone suggest he'd betray his family? :::glares::: We have too much evidence to the contrary. I agree with Scott and Penny--search the archives. And about Ginny: >In CoS she wasn't exactly working for great good, but it wasn't by >her own will, and it wasn't that she was *bad*. She was a plot >device. I imagine Ginny is quite a nice girl, and could be so much >more than a plot device. I'd love to see more of her. > Ginny's so fun to speculate about, as she's such a wild card right now. We still do not know much about her. I can't wait to see how she develops... but I must say that I was very disappointed at her scarcity in GoF. In fanfic, Ginny has become an Everywoman figure second only to Hermione. I do think that some of what's been extrapolated from the little we know about her is ridiculous. We know she is Ron's little sister. We know she's had a crush on Harry for ages. We know that she is reported to be rather talkative (which is why I goggle at "nurturing, quiet Ginny" in fanfiction--we simply have no evidence for this). We do not know what sort of student she is. We do not know whether she's any good at Quidditch or flying. We do not even know who her friends are. In short, we know only the surface of who she is. What we do know is that she probably will not be used by the Dark Side as a traitor. That would be rehash--JKR used up that lifeline in CoS. --Ebony AKA AngieJ (who thinks it'd be cool if the Snape/vampire connection is proven) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From JamiDeise at aol.com Sun Jun 3 03:35:17 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:35:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid in Slytherin??? Message-ID: <110.72e956.284b0a75@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19979 In a message dated 6/2/2001 11:20:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com writes: << The only fact that I have to back this up is some statement that was said during POA that all of the deatheaters were from Slytherin while they still were thinking that Sirius was a deatheater. >> Actually, I think it was in GoF; Sirius told Harry, Ron and Hermione that in the group that Snape hung out with, almost all of them turned out to be DEs. Hagrid did say in PS/SS that every Dark witch and wizard had come out of that house. Which makes me wonder ... why doesn't Dumbledore just abolish the house of Slytherin completely? Let the Sorting Hat identify those Slytherinish students, and boot them out the back door. Why give those with the propensity toward evil, the tools they need to become better and stronger wizards and witches? Jami From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 03:44:03 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why are they screaming In-Reply-To: <002d01c0eb85$19bbf520$181275d5@PoorClares> Message-ID: <20010603034403.61203.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19980 UM maybe they just found the troll..I"m not sure that doesn't work either...hmmm...I have absolutely no idea..sorry. Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 04:02:28 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley In-Reply-To: <3B1915AD.A1CE693B@swbell.net> Message-ID: <20010603040228.62478.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19981 I apologize once again for bringing up an old topic...I was just wondering what other people thought of, honestly I can see Percy going there but then coming back. I think that the twins well they are just too humorous to go to the dark side..I'm sorry just can't see them hanging with Voldie. But Ron is an interesting suspicion..we all have seen his temper. I could see him going there but eventually his love for harry(friendship) would win over. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 04:05:33 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 04:05:33 Subject: The Case for Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19982 Jami wrote: "Hagrid did say in PS/SS that every Dark witch and wizard had come out of that house. Which makes me wonder ... why doesn't Dumbledore just abolish the house of Slytherin completely? Let the Sorting Hat identify those Slytherinish students, and boot them out the back door. Why give those with the propensity toward evil, the tools they need to become better and stronger wizards and witches?" I can't *believe* I'm writing this post. I'm one of those unsophisticated readers who, in canon, doesn't find much to love in the House of Slytherin. Upon first reading the series, I wanted to be a Ravenclaw (and still do!), but I have the feeling I'm more of a Gryffindor type. Yet without the personality traits valued by Slytherin, the wizarding world would be greatly diminished. Both ambition and nationalism are great things in healthy, measured doses. I'm using "nationalism" here in a loose, improper sense because I'm not sure what other term would fit. I can't believe that all Slyths are the magical equivalent of Nazis. I do believe that a Slytherin characteristic that *could* be construed as positive is that they seem to greatly esteem their magical heritage. That's no worse than valuing your Scottish or Korean or Zapotec or Bantu or Maltese heritage, right? (All right, I'm reaching here... I know that these kids seem to value the so-called purity of blood above all else.) Even if the House of Slytherin contained ALL the bad apples in the wizarding world, I'd rather they be educated at Hogwarts under Dumbledore than shipped off to Durmstrang and educated by the likes of Karkaroff. Or worse, can you *imagine* Lucius Malfoy homeschooling? Or establishing a private academy for the slimy-minded only? I'm glad that kids like Draco Malfoy are forced to sit in classes with kids like Hermione Granger and Ron Weasley... it's amazing, but getting to know individuals from a group that you are used to forming stereotypes about can be quite iconoclastic... which is why I don't find Draco-redemption in some form before canon's end ridiculous. Quite the contrary. If Draco follows in Lucius Malfoy's footsteps with no sign of remorse, he is no better than Wormtail... knowing what is right, but due to fear and the desire for self-preservation at all costs, refusing to act on what he knows. The Slytherin kids provide a needed balance for the rest of the students. In real life there are many Slytherins... best to learn how to deal with them in one's formative years, and not attempt to establish a pedagogical utopia which is ultimately doomed to fail. Other thoughts? --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From joym999 at aol.com Sun Jun 3 04:23:38 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 04:23:38 -0000 Subject: moving pictures ... paintings vs. photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fce4a+ftsu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19983 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Matthew Dawdy" wrote: > I just has another thought on the moving pictures. > > A painting takes longer than a picture. So, a picture is pretty much a one > frame snapshot of someone's life -- how they are feeling in the picture > indicates how they were feeling when it was taken, probably. Happy, sad, > etc -- one emotion or state of mind. > > A painting takes so long, they are bound to go through plenty of other > emotions during the sitting. Which gives the characters in the paintings > more depth if you will. > It takes a lot longer to create a painting than it does to create a photo if you are talking about snapshots, i.e. the kind in which the film is developed and printed by machines (or translated by computer, these days). However, if you are talking about the more artistic sort of photography, it can take a very long time to create a photo and a lot of emotion can go in to it. I studied photography in college, and would spend many many hours in the darkroom trying to get the right effect. However, the photos we have seen so far in the HP books are all of the snapshot variety, so Matthews argument holds. I just wonder if the wizarding variety of *artistic* photos have as much character as the paintings. That would be pretty cool. If you had a beautiful, artistic photo of an airplane, maybe it could fly around your house from photo to photo, pick up your 5 year old self and your Grandpa and your cat when he was a kitten, and fly over to see your trip to the Grand Canyon. --Joywitch From joym999 at aol.com Sun Jun 3 04:27:49 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 04:27:49 -0000 Subject: Profanity (Re: Eating slugs...) In-Reply-To: <9f1e7a+vj7r@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fcec5+33vu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19984 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" wrote: > > When Ron told Draco to "Eat slugs" I was thinking that it meant > > something along the lines of, pardon the american vulgarity, "Eat > > sh*t". [snip] , it would be amusing if Ron called Malfoy an, er..., 'anus' and > Draco turned into one.... > Draco ALREADY is one, IMO. --Joywitch From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 04:27:49 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 04:27:49 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley (and Ron) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19985 Melanie wrote: >I apologize once again for bringing up an old topic...I was just wondering >what other people thought of, honestly I can see Percy going there but then >coming back. Well, anything's possible. The only way I see Percy going there is if he's under Imperius. >I think that the twins well they are just too humorous to go to the dark >side..I'm sorry just can't see them hanging with Voldie. But Ron is an >interesting suspicion..we all have seen his temper. I could see him going >there but eventually his love for harry(friendship) would win over. > Ron doesn't yet have a compelling reason to go over to the Dark Side. I hope he never gets one, either... but then, my opinion of his strength of character does not mirror that of many fans. I don't dislike Ron as a character at all. I will admit that I do not understand him, and see him entering a phase I hope he grows out of very quickly. The argument that "he's just an adolescent boy" does not suffice in my mind when there is a madman on the loose... ask Voldemort, Lucius Malfoy, et. al whether or not they'll put their Diabolical Plans on hold so Ron can grow up. Or any of the rest of these kids, for that matter. Ron doesn't need more hugs and pity. He needs to put on his sword and shield. Childhood is over. He's going to need to be vigiliant. Otherwise, I fear that he may unwittingly become a Pawn... I'd much rather see him become a Knight. The more and more I read canon and fanfic, the more ways I can see Ron, Hermione, or both being used against Harry in some fashion. Voluntarily or involuntarily. The enemy has a smorgasbord of choices--it remains to be seen which choice will be made. --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 3 04:44:46 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 04:44:46 -0000 Subject: The Case for Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fcfbu+ie59@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19986 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" wrote: > Jami wrote: > > "Hagrid did say in PS/SS that every Dark witch and wizard had come out of > that house. Which makes me wonder ... why doesn't Dumbledore just abolish > the house of Slytherin completely? Let the Sorting Hat identify those > Slytherinish students, and boot them out the back door. Why give those with > the propensity toward evil, the tools they need to become better and > stronger wizards and witches?" I think that Hagrid's statement is not to be taken at face value, even if Sirius does turn out to have been a Slytherin. IMO it is meant to be the mirror image of Salazar Slytherin's belief that Muggle-borns are untrustworthy. It's Jo's way of showing us that prejudice is something even well-meaning people have to struggle with. The Slytherins' clannishness (is that the word you wanted, Eb?) mistrustfulness and ambition, even their willingness to consider any means to achieve their ends, are not neccessarily negative traits, though they may be difficult ones. So the presence of Slytherin gives the members of other houses an opportunity to learn and practice tolerance. Pippin From banjoken at optonline.net Sun Jun 3 05:25:41 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 05:25:41 -0000 Subject: The Case for Slytherin In-Reply-To: <9fcfbu+ie59@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fchol+fvme@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19987 Wow, this thread is drawing even me out of lurkdom! One of the few things that bothers me about the series is the automatic view that Slytherin is bad or evil. Even in discussion here, from what I've seen, the best defense is that it's useful as a foil for the other three houses (Gryffindor espically). It seems to me that all the houses are (or should be) equal. Slytherin, I'm sure, has produced students every bit as good as Gryffindors. It seems to me that Tom Riddle, the Malfoys, etc. are giving Slytherin a bad name that it probably doesn't deserve. On a happier note: what a great group we've got here! I've been lurking for about a month, and I've really enjoyed everything I've seen so far. Ken PS - Hello to all the Binghamton University people! I know there are a few of us hanging around... From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 05:42:05 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 05:42:05 -0000 Subject: I Love CoS, too!--stuff about Evil--Lewis and JKR In-Reply-To: <9f4f74+47k0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fcind+ok49@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19988 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > Caius wrote: > > > I too have been curious that CoS seems to be regarded as the ugly > > duckling by so many on this group. > > > > It was CoS that really made me an HP fan. I first read PS/SS in > > December 1999 - while I enjoyed the book, I was ("with shame it is > > written, with sorrow it is read") really not blown away by it. It > > wasn't until May 2000 that I finally picked up CoS. I read the > entire > > book in a single day, and then rushed out to get Azkaban the next > > day. > > I can tell a similar story. I liked PS/SS: but didn't seek out the > second book until the summer after PoA came out. It was because of > CoS that I reached for PoA and devoured it...and the rest is > history. > > However...till I read the poll I thought I was alone in having an > unidentifiable grudge against CoS, and think I might have identified > what it is. > > > I feel that, enjoyable though PS/SS was, it was really in CoS that > > JKR came into her own as a writer. It's here that we first start > to > > get a better picture of the wizarding world > > I agree with this. But I think I like CoS much the same way I like > THE GOOD EARTH: the book compels me but I hate what happens to O- > lan. CoS compels me but I hate what happens to Ginny. Nicholson grimace> I am using the word *hate* here. Oh, I concede > that it makes the plot very satisfying at its resolution. I even > concede that it drags Ginny into the spotlight in a sort of macabre > way. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. > > Why then, you will say, don't I equally *hate* what happens to Harry > with the dementors? Or to Cedric at the Riddle grave? Well...I don't > know. I didn't say I'd figured it *all* out. > > Now going back a little to the discussion about good vs. evil. I > paid particular attention to an exchange between Rebecca and I think > Susan and Pippin about whether or not evil is bigger than good in > JKR, whether or not the Narnia books are formulaic, and whether or > not Aslan is the deus ex machina. > > I think what set *my* bells off is when McGonagall says to Dumbledore > in the first chapter of PS/SS that Voldemort was only afraid of Albus > Dumbledore. "You flatter me, my dear...Voldemort had powers I never > will." "Only because you're too *noble* to use them," McGonagall > shoots back. Well, wouldn't this imply that people who break the > rules are the ones with the real power? That even the best among us > can't stand up to the potency of those who go outside the pale of > humanity? But Dumbledore himself limits that idea in his several > talks with Harry ("if someone resists him again, and again, why he > may never come back to power"; and the famous "it's our choices that > make us who we are"). Not to mention the famous gleam. And instead > of calling it pragmatic, I'd call it heroic, like the star dying in > WRINKLE IN TIME. > > It's true that the Ministry makes use of Dementors and (along with > the rest of the wizarding world) gives more credence to Voldemort by > refusing to say his name; but I think JKR writes it more to criticize > it than, as Blake says of Milton, be "of Satan's party without > knowing it." Blake makes an amusing and sometimes pretty good case > out of PARADISE LOST; I doubt you could make as good a case of the HP > books. Not to compare JKR with our Great English Epic Poet or > anything . > > And as for the Narnia books, I wouldn't call them formulaic either. > Nor would I consider Aslan the deus ex machina of the stories, or > even in particular of THE LION, THE WITCH, AND THE WARDROBE. The > stories may appear to be about the children, but they really *are* > about Aslan; and the main character of a story can't be deus ex > machina. That would be like saying that Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn > showing up at their own funeral is deus ex machina. You can > criticize it for other things, but not for that. > > JKR's stories are different because they *are* about people like us > muddling through the world, not knowing any Aslans or if there even > are any, uncertain that good will triumph but determined to do their > part -- and meanwhile sorting out what their part actually consists > of. It's different stuff: but it's good different stuff. > > Going to bed now. > > > > Lisa I. I think it is critically important that we realize that we can NEVER employ evil means to a good end. It is by the means that are employed that we can judge good or evil, not by the often nobly and grandiosely proclaimed goal. I will not break the prohibition against referring to real-life examples to illustrate my point, but I trust we are all sophisticated enough to think of a number of these in our various experiences. Dumbledore, or anyone professing to be good, may not do evil in furthering a good cause. Dumbledore would then become like unto the Dark Lord. As for the Narnia books, Aslan is not deus ex machina, but Deus himself. From this all the rest of the series depends. Haggridd From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 07:09:47 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 07:09:47 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: <9fc8c6+ptbu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fcnrr+62ml@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19989 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > > Oh, c'mon, do you mean that some people wouldn't buy the next books > if H/H were shown to be a doomed possibility? I don't think so! Yes, I truly believe that some listies would be crushed if H/H were not a possibility. > > Of course, if she did say that Lupin/Black had been lovers (vs. > > saying that there was no way in hell that they had been lovers), > > then there are some serious tidal changes in shipping > > possibilities for future books. Oy vey. > > > > ....Craig, too confused and up too late > > Ibis redibis in numquam armis peribis. > > I'm tempted to leave it at that, but have perhaps indulged myself > too much lately. And I'm sorry I confused you Craig..... No worries. And you could have left it at the Latin - I understood. > Now I have to apologize for poor grammar, too! Sigh... > > Anyway, the original post was accurately interpeted by Penny the > Great, List Mother and Real Mother, who understood that I was trying > to say that JKR said there: > > Was no way in hell H/H had ever been involved...that yes Remus and > Lupin were involved, and yes, Crookshanks would play a major role.. > and that Remus and Sirius had been lovers at Hogwarts [Is this so > far fetched really? I never suggested that it was. It was the notion that this would have been revealed that was out of left field, not the "revelation" itself. The "revelation" would be plausible--the possibility of JKR revealing it would be less plausible.... ....Craig From angela_burgess at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 07:27:42 2001 From: angela_burgess at yahoo.com (angela_burgess at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 07:27:42 -0000 Subject: Barty Crouch, Jr. and Voldemort In-Reply-To: <9f2drl+sftb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fcote+m2fe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19990 >>Dave raises a lot of great points. He also wrote: Barty Crouch Jr. is a curious mixture of vindictiveness and selfless devotion. He clearly loves Voldemort and has enormous faith in him. In another cause, his singleminded pursuit of his goal and willingness to sacrifice for the sake of another would be regarded as exemplary. It is clear that Voldemort's hold on him is not one of fear alone. Of course, he is an unusual case among the Death Eaters...<< Catherine then writes: >>...but I have some thoughts on Barty Crouch jnr. Is the man a hypocrite? We know that he holds himself up to be Voldemort's most faithful servant. He seems to revere him, love him - no fear involved here. BCJ also hates with a passion all the death eaters who managed to escape Azkaban by renouncing Voldemort, or pretending that they were under the imperious curse, such as Lucius Malfoy. He says that he is Voldemort's most faithful servant and that he, personally, never dreamed of renouncing him. I think that there is some very selective memories going on here. IIRC, BCJ, when being sentenced by his father screams and pleads with him not to send him back to Azkaban, protests his innocence and says that he never had anything to do with torturing the Longbottoms. This is in contrast to the Lestranges, who are truly faithful, and who accept their sentences and tell the court that the Dark Lord will rise again. They certainly do not renounce Voldemort. I admit that BCJ does help them try and find Voldemort after he has lost his powers, but he certainly denies his involvement. Therefore, how can he say that he is Voldemort's most faithful servant? I am of the opinion that he considers V as a father figure, and does see himself as a faithful servant - but I also think that he was resentful of the death eaters who walked free because they managed to escape the experience of Azkaban, unlike himself. He was stupid enough to get caught - they weren't.-- Catherine<< My thoughts on this have been swirling in my brain for quite some time (a Penseive would hae been great!), but I wanted to wait before I posted anything. I am currently listening to GoF on audio, which makes this my 6th reading of it since it came out...not much compared to some of you, I'm sure, but plenty for most people. Anyway, i got off track...I just listened to BCJ's trial again. While he definitely denies torturing the Longbottoms, he NEVER says that he does not support Voldemort. In fact, he seems quite determined only to admit his innocence where the Longbottoms are concerned. This seems to me as simply a matter where he is being tried for the wrong reason. It is very possible that he didn't put the Cruciatus Curse on the Longbottoms. However, if BCS had put him on trial for being a Death Eater, as they did Karkaroff, then he would not have denied it. It's like the television series (I don't remember the name) where the lawyer is able to get a criminal off because the reason he can't be guilty of the murder they are accusing him of is that, on the night of the murder, he was killimg someone else. It's simply a matter of asking the right questions and accusing the criminal if the appropriate crime. Does that make any sense? Any thoughts out there? Angela From andromache815 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 08:36:44 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:36:44 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Case for Slytherin References: <9fchol+fvme@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 19991 One of the few things that bothers me about the series is the automatic view that Slytherin is bad or evil. Even in discussion here, from what I've seen, the best defense is that it's useful as a foil for the other three houses (Gryffindor espically). It seems to me that all the houses are (or should be) equal. Slytherin, I'm sure, has produced students every bit as good as Gryffindors. It seems to me that Tom Riddle, the Malfoys, etc. are giving Slytherin a bad name that it probably doesn't deserve. Ken A forbidden "I agree" post, but please make an exception, as I feel very strongly on this subject. Excellent comments by Ken. I'd also like to add that we've only really seen Draco and Co. and Pansy and her gang. We've never seen any older Slytherins, as Harry and Co. don't really have contact with them. We may never see the older Slyths because of their differences in age. Unfortunate, really. Vicky [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rja.carnegie at excite.com Sun Jun 3 08:54:25 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 08:54:25 -0000 Subject: Why Harry stay with the Dursley's In-Reply-To: <9f62eh+65bh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fcu01+l398@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19992 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" wrote: > It might not have been in the Daily Prophet with a map when Dumbly > first put Harry on the doorstep, but I see no reason to think that > people couldn't find out if they wished to do so. I also see the > flipside which that Harry's home could have been swamped with > grateful wizards all trying to get a look at "The-Boy-Who-Lived" in > his infancy. End of Chapter 2 of PS indicates that on several occasions, Harry's met wizards in the street or while out shopping - but not at the Dursley's house. Dobby manages that, though - perhaps from house-elves' unexplained affinity for houses, their mysterious powers, or because Dumbledore (as Chief House Elf :-) lets him through. If Hogwarts is the greatest wizarding household in the country (_not_ excluding the Ministry of Magic), or in the world, then Dumbledore as head of that household may be a person respected by every other house's elves - even if he isn't an elf himself, he may be honorary head of their clan. I'm considering Lord Baden-Powell's relationship with the Boy Scouts... (And the junior girls' arm of the Baden-Powell military-industrial complex is named, in Britain, after a species of elf or fairy - they are the Brownie Guides, www.brownieguide.org.uk apparently.) Robert Carnegie Meretricious! (This is my new .sig. It's out of a Gilderoy Lockhart book indicia, it's a spell that lets me write like he does and get away with it) From rja.carnegie at excite.com Sun Jun 3 09:14:35 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 09:14:35 -0000 Subject: Obliviation - Snape at 3rd task? at rebirthing? -CoS In-Reply-To: <9f5fek+o2rd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fcv5r+42g1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19993 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > > As far as [Dumbledore and Snape] communicating, there has to be > ways they communicate with each other quickly. That's a big castle > and I can't imagine them just walking or running when an emergency > arrives. Well, Professor McGonagall uses some kind of _public_ address system in CoS when Ginny...... But maybe that magic can only be done with some special object from the school office. One imagines some kind of megaphone; the Sorting Hat is the right shape ;-) Author Roger Zelazny's Trump cards (from Amber) suggest that something could be done with sympathetic magic and a picture or painting of someone. Just by looking hard at a Trump card, you can make telepathic contact with the person portrayed, or even teleport yourself to them or vice versa. _Much_ better than a pager. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rja.carnegie at excite.com Sun Jun 3 10:17:12 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 10:17:12 -0000 Subject: Is there a career for those kissed by Dementors? In-Reply-To: <20010601213545.11452.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fd2r8+3gkg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19994 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > Wow that is a good theory a "souless person" I mean as evil and > disspassionate and scarry those dementors are it would seem to me > that they lack a soul. We are never really told what a dementor > would be. Perhaps, they are souless ghosts... If you're saying that a Dementor's Kiss turns the victim into a Dementor, and that that's where they come from, then so am I. I read U.S. comicbooks, and the _Martian Manhunter_ recently had an interesting experience - he had his mind divided into two bodies, supposedly temporarily but it was accidentally made permanent - the problem being, one of the two bodies didn't have a soul. And it turned evil. The way I just told it, that sounds pretty cheap, but actually it was pretty subtle. The clone was "evil" in the sense of acting selfishly, putting his friends at risk for personal profit, violating Martian ethics on abuse of telepathy for the same reason (clone didn't have the M.M.'s other powers). This is quite separate from a similar story involving M.M., running at the same time in the _JLA_ team comicbook. They may or may not be doing the "thing" about soulless bodies in _JLA_; they've split superheroes and their secret identities into two people each, and the superhero versions are acting out of character... All of which may be beside the point if the people subjected to the Dementor's kiss are presumed to be evil people anyway. Although the Dementors don't care, either way. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 10:29:36 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 10:29:36 -0000 Subject: interview In-Reply-To: <9fcnrr+62ml@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fd3ig+d3vp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19995 Susan M wrote: > > and that Remus and Sirius had been lovers at Hogwarts [Is this so > > far fetched really? Craig wrote: > I never suggested that it was. It was the notion that this would > have been revealed that was out of left field, not the "revelation" > itself. The "revelation" would be plausible--the possibility of JKR > revealing it would be less plausible.... And the possibility of JKR revealing it without causing an immediate explosion of "Harry Potter's Godfather Gay?" headlines and a raft of talk-show debates is even less plausible. Amy Z From rja.carnegie at excite.com Sun Jun 3 10:39:28 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 10:39:28 -0000 Subject: Homorphus In-Reply-To: <3B17F4A1.AE23B054@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9fd450+g4bv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19996 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady wrote: > Rick wrote: > > Lockhart says he uses the immensely complex Homorphus > > Charm to turn the werewolf back into a man. Was that just > > for the month or was the man cured forever? If he was cured > > forever why is Lupin still a werewolf? > > When I wondered that, I thought maybe the Homorphus Charm includes > wiping out the person's mind (leaving them babbling, having > forgotten their toilet training, and unable to recognize their > most beloved friends) as a side-effect. Then someone suggested > that it only turns the person from wolf to human for one minute, > just long enough for the villagers to recognize him so they could > go after him while he was in human form the next day. Or, simply, perhaps werewolfism is like diabetes - there are different versions of the disease, and broadly speaking what makes the difference is whether you get it as a child or as an adult. Lupin got bitten as a small child, so he got it worse. (I'm aware that this is gross oversimplification, as I've just been checking out fact sheets online at http://www.diabetes.org.uk/ .) I'd ask whether there's also gestational werewolfism but someone's sure to bite my head off :-) Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rja.carnegie at excite.com Sun Jun 3 10:59:18 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 10:59:18 -0000 Subject: Hagrid in Slytherin??? In-Reply-To: <9fb0q0+omk7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fd5a6+pgsa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19997 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Demelza" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lumen" wrote: > > Two evenings ago my sisters and I were reading an exchange session > between JK Rowling and children. One of the children asked about > Hagrid and which house he was in. She gave one of those tantalizing > answers of hers about oh, yes this is very important and we shall be > learning that in a future book. Immediately I thought of the scene > from CoS when Riddle, shadowed by Harry, corners Hagrid with Agagog. > After waiting a full hour in the the doorway of the Potions > classroom, thus in the dungeons, it sounds like they followed Hagrid > even deeper into the dungeon section. At least that is my reasoning > from the direction in which Agagog took off when escaping... It > seems an indication that Hagrid was in Slytherin, since a student > assigned to one of the other houses would have had a very hard time > raising a giant spider in the dungeons. And as Harry said of Mademe > Maxime..."She's havea job hiding, wouldn't she?" > > > > Slytherin does seem a logical place given that Hagrid is half- > giant...thus in popular wizarding opinion, already half down the road > to evil... And there is a certain bitterness in his tone when he > tells Harry in PhilSt that it would be better to be assigned to > Hufflepuff than to be in Slytherin. > > > > Any clues as to which house he might have been in? My sister would > love to prove me wrong...although I am far from proving my theory. > Oh, when will that book come! > > > > Maria > > Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop -- "Have Wand, Will Wave" > > www.geocities.com/lumen_dei > > > > In one of the chats J. K. Rowling gave last autumn, she said that > Hagrid was in Gryffindor. He wouldn't have made a very good Slytherin, by the look of him now - unless he's putting on a _very_ good act, and has an extremely blinkered view of what's really important - e.g., raising dragons from egg versus protecting the Philosopher's Stone. He's firmly out-Slythered by Tom Riddle in CoS. Finally, he just doesn't seem bright enough. In terms of the Slytherin ethos of being a sneaky, conniving, political snake, he's a dead loss. But then, I used to think Neville wasn't a very good Gryffindor. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rja.carnegie at excite.com Sun Jun 3 11:27:32 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 11:27:32 -0000 Subject: The Case for Slytherin In-Reply-To: <9fcfbu+ie59@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fd6v4+1kaq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19998 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" > wrote: > > Jami wrote: > > > > "Hagrid did say in PS/SS that every Dark witch and wizard had come out of > > that house. Which makes me wonder ... why doesn't Dumbledore just abolish > > the house of Slytherin completely? Let the Sorting Hat identify those > > Slytherinish students, and boot them out the back door. Why give those with > > the propensity toward evil, the tools they need to become better and > > stronger wizards and witches?" > > I think that Hagrid's statement is not to be taken at face value, > even if Sirius does turn out to have been a Slytherin. IMO it is meant > to be the mirror image of Salazar Slytherin's belief that Muggle-borns > are untrustworthy. It's Jo's way of showing us that prejudice is > something even well-meaning people have to struggle with. Furthermore, Hagrid's statement may or may not be accurate - although (now I've found the quote, in Diagon Alley after Harry meets Draco Malfoy) a get-out may be that he refers to witches and wizards who "went bad." He may consider others to be "born bad"...? Before I read GOF - does only Hogwarts, of all the wizard schools in the world, have a Slytherin House? Otherwise, were all of the Death Eaters old school friends of Voldemort's? Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From indigo at indigosky.net Sun Jun 3 12:42:08 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 12:42:08 -0000 Subject: Do House-Elves Guard Houses? In-Reply-To: <20010601212424.49456.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fdbb0+j8vf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 19999 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > I truly believe that a house elf's main job is to be a servant to them...I have never seen any evidence of anyone guarding the houses (except Dobby guarding Harry). But it is possible there is a house elf on guard at the Dursley residence... > > I'm inclined to doubt it. The House-Elves usually look after *all* members of the family. Dobby has already gone to some lengths to make sure Harry Potter is known, respected, and beloved of house elves high and low; if there was a House Elf in the Dursleys, I don't believe that elf would've let Dobby near Harry at the beginning. Harry has had to have birthday snacks and treats sent to him by his wizard friends so he'd survive the Dudley diet treatment. Surely if there were a house elf, they'd have done everything they could to make Harry's stay at the Dursleys unobtrusively comfortable? Indigo From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 12:51:37 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 12:51:37 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: at rebirthing/interview Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20000 Susan wrote: > > Oh, c'mon, do you mean that some people wouldn't buy the next books > > if H/H were shown to be a doomed possibility? I don't think so! Craig wrote: >Yes, I truly believe that some listies would be crushed if H/H were >not a possibility. Where did this come from? Unless you're referring to yourself or lurkers, Craig, I'm not sure what listies who have expressed that shipping preference would be crushed. None of the H/Hers I know expect to ever see it from JKR's pen, except as perhaps a red herring or something unrequited to thicken the plot stew... and even that's a stretch. Unlike other ships, we don't have a sense of entitlement... which is why a lot of us write fanfiction. Whatever JKR writes is fine with me. Of course, many of us have said that we will disagree with her if she chooses certain outcomes (parallels were drawn to LMA and other writers), but that is our prerogative as readers. But it won't stop this H/Her from loving the remaining Harry Potter books, which involve *so much more than shipping*. In fact, romance is the least of *my* concerns--I'm more worried about the characters I like *surviving* canon! :::shakes her head::: --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From catz109 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 13:34:46 2001 From: catz109 at hotmail.com (catz109 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 13:34:46 -0000 Subject: Snape has been alone Message-ID: <9fdedm+kibg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20001 I don't think Snape ever was married you know. I don't know if this has been discussed on here before, but from what I have heard people think he was married to Florence. What would make you think that? I just think he has been lonely, unloved and un-loveable all his life. Soz Snape fans! Chao From lotte at teepe.com Sun Jun 3 12:38:25 2001 From: lotte at teepe.com (Lotte Douze) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:38:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: the case for slytherin In-Reply-To: <991546934.2537.68971.l6@yahoogroups.com> References: <991546934.2537.68971.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <1215.192.168.1.4.991571905.squirrel@www.teepe.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20002 > Jami wrote: > > "Hagrid did say in PS/SS that every Dark witch and wizard had come out > of that house. Which makes me wonder ... why doesn't Dumbledore just > abolish the house of Slytherin completely? Let the Sorting Hat > identify those Slytherinish students, and boot them out the back door. > Why give those with the propensity toward evil, the tools they need to > become better and stronger wizards and witches?" IMO the abolishing of Slytherin would not solve the problem. The dark wizards would still be there and probably found their own school. I can imagine they would be very revengefull towards Dumbledore. That would make things worse. The fact that all dark wizards come from Slytherin doesn't mean that all Slytherins are dark wizards. It wouldn't surprise me if Dumbledore tries to keep his Slytherins away from the dark side by showing them other possibilities, so they will be able to make their own choice (which, as we all know, is very important to Dumbledore). Ebony wrote: > Yet without the personality traits valued by Slytherin, the wizarding > world would be greatly diminished. Both ambition and nationalism are > great things in healthy, measured doses. I'm using "nationalism" here > in a loose, improper sense because I'm not sure what other term would > fit. I can't believe that all Slyths are the magical equivalent of > Nazis. I do believe that a Slytherin characteristic that *could* be > construed as positive is that they seem to greatly esteem their > magical heritage. That's no worse than valuing your Scottish or > Korean or Zapotec or Bantu or Maltese heritage, right? (All right, > I'm reaching here... I know that these kids seem to value the > so-called purity of blood above all else.) (snip) > The Slytherin kids provide a needed balance for the rest of the > students. In real life there are many Slytherins... best to learn how > to deal with them in one's formative years, and not attempt to > establish a pedagogical utopia which is ultimately doomed to fail. > > Other thoughts? > I agree completely. And one more thing: We have only seen some awfull Slytherins (Draco c.s.) and we have seen the Slytherin house-behaviour, which is very nationalistic indeed. But there might be nice Slytherins as well. After all, the Hufflepuffs aren't always nice either (see CoS). Lotte From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 3 13:39:31 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 13:39:31 -0000 Subject: Hagrid in Slytherin??? In-Reply-To: <20010603031932.93964.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fdemj+hit9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20003 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > Um didn't Hagrid say that he was a gryffindor at the beginning of book Sorcerer/Philosopher's stone..I was pretty sure that he did...but I guess I could be wrong...I always wondered about Sirius actually. I thought it would be an interesting twist for him to be Slytherin. The only fact that I have to back this up is some statement that was said during POA that all of the deatheaters were from Slytherin while they still were thinking that Sirius was a deatheater. > > Melanie I don't think that it's been mentioned in the books, but it has certainly come up in interviews and JKR has said that Hagrid was in Gryffindor. I was most perturbed to find that it could cross anyone's mind that Hagrid should belong in Slytherin. I just don't see what qualities he has which fits in there - for me, he has the qualities of a Gryffindor (bravery) and of Hufflepuff (unswavering loyalty and hardworking) and although, like Harry, he isn't averse to disregarding rules, he certainly isn't ambitious, and he would not do anything to attain his own selfish ends. His giant blood may come out in his rather bloodthirsty love of scary and dangerous creatures, but his almost killing Karkarof I put down to losing his temper, and not knowing his own strength. We don't look at Harry when he loses his temper, and say "Oh dear, lost his temper again, maybe he should belong in Slytherin." Likewise with Hermione when she slaps Draco across the face. It's just that Hagrid, being half-giant, probably has more to control - I don't think he intended to kill Karkarof - just shake him up a little. Finally, the giants may have an affinity with the Dark Side, but I don't think that it is said anywhere that they have any magical powers. Hagrid is not a pureblood wizard - he is half and half, and also he is only half human. The Slytherins pride themselves on being pureblood, therefore I can't see that a half giant would be acceptable to them, or sorted into their house. Catherine From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 3 13:40:55 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 08:40:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape at Rebirth party? References: <9fbkon+qgsh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B1A3E66.519F8A34@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20004 Not responding to anyone in particular, but on the whole "was Snape there" question. I've not been following this completely, so I'm sorry if this was pointed out before: When Snape confronts Fudge, showing him the Dark Mark and revealing its meaning, he [Snape] seems to be driven by the sort of frustrated need to make another see reason that has other characters in other works shaking people by the shoulders and yelling in their face. What he says and does is not calculated and thought-out so much as impassioned. He's using the best and strongest he's got to convince Fudge, to the point of ignoring that he's saying this in front of Molly Weasley, another Weasley son, and three students he hates. Fudge's excuse for not believing Voldemort has returned is that it is Harry's word, and Harry's grasp on reality has been publicly questioned. Surely if Snape had been at the rebirthing, his best and strongest to convince Fudge would be to corroborate Harry, to say, "I saw him, too"? But he did not say this. This indicates to me, at least, that Snape did *not* go, he is one of the two missing ones (coward/deserter) [although I am still chilled by how easily *he* could be the faithful servant, too], and the best proof he could give of Voldemort's return is the renewed Mark, not his assertion of having seen him as well. --Amanda From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 3 13:59:40 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 08:59:40 -0500 Subject: Soundtrack info, from Alan Rickman newsletter - 3 June, 2001 Message-ID: <3B1A42CB.F4424FB5@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20005 I'd have posted this to Announcements, but I'm not sure how many of you are there. For the legal-minded, the compiler of the newsletter has given me permission to post tidbits here, provided I give the source info. --Amanda Rickman Fans wrote: > 10. MAKING MUSIC > > Recognised Hollywood music composer, John Williams, > has already begun to compose music for the Harry > Potter movie due out at the end of this year. In a > very enlightening article to Australian newspaper, The > Courier Mail (2 June, 2001), Williams talked about the > process he is currently going through to compose for > the Harry Potter music. He mentioned what he had seen > so far: > > "I've actually seen a little of the film already," > Williams says. "A couple of months ago I saw the first > trailer, which is 110 seconds long, and I wrote and > recorded some music for it." > The trailer is now on the Web (a > href=http://harrypotter.com/>harrypotter.com), where > it has been minutely analysed and hotly discussed. In > it we see the Hogwarts Express depart from Platform 9 > at King's Cross Station and catch glimpses of some of > the key characters - Harry, of course (Daniel > Radcliffe), his nemesis Draco Malfoy, his best friends > Hermione and Ron, Hagrid the giant, and the Durleys, > his awful muggle family. We also see Alan Rickman as > Professor Snape, Dame Maggie Smith as Professor > McGonagall, and Hedwig the bird. > > There is little dialogue: what carries the trailer > along is a darkly alluring orchestral waltz by > Williams. > "I developed a theme for Hedwig," Williams says. > "Everyone seemed to like it, so I will probably use > that music as one thread in the tapestry." > Williams does not yet know the score's length, but he > says: "I imagine there will be a lot of music in the > film, and Chris Columbus has told me that the film is > long and that he needs to whittle it down. That's a > very hard and heartbreaking process for a director, > and it's very difficult for a composer, too. " > > You can read the rest of this interesting article at: > http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,2063650%255E7642,00.html > > ---------------------------- > To view archived issues, please go to: > http://www.topica.com/lists/AR_Newsletter/read > > ------------------------------------- > DISCLAIMER: The items mentioned in this newsletter are collected from various sources on the web and other media. Every endeavor is made to verify rumors, but the author of the newsletter cannot be held responsible for rumors which turn out to be false. > > The Alan Rickman Newsletter is in no way connected to Alan Rickman or his agents, therefore the opinions and comments presented represent those of the respective author(s) only, and no harm is intended. > > Cybamuse Media Services owns the copyright to the Alan Rickman Newsletter and it is not to be re-produced on the web or in any other media format without prior consent from Cybamuse Media Services. IF THIS NEWSLETTER IS REPRODUCED WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM CYBAMUSE MEDIA SERVICES, THE OFFENDER(S) WILL BE REMOVED IMMEIDATELY FROM THE DISTRIUBTION LIST. > > If articles are quoted within the newsletter, the copyright for their content remains with the original authors. Cybamuse Media Services does not support any one online shop and all recommendations are not to be considered endorsed advertising. > > Please email RickmanFans at cybamuse.com for any comments or further information that you require. > > -------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from this newsletter, please send an email to: AR_Newsletter-unsubscribe at topica.com > > ------------------------------ > > ==^================================================================ > EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?b1djT8.b1P3Uu > Or send an email To: ar_newsletter-unsubscribe at topica.com > This email was sent to: editor at texas.net > > T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! > http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register > ==^================================================================ From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Jun 3 14:07:50 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 14:07:50 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley (and Ron) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fdgbm+bfr3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20006 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" wrote: > > The more and more I read canon and fanfic, the more ways I can see Ron, > Hermione, or both being used against Harry in some fashion. Voluntarily or > involuntarily. The enemy has a smorgasbord of choices--it remains to be > seen which choice will be made.> Well said, Ebony! I agree with you, and have given this particular topic a good deal of thought (something I don't admit to just anyone). When I think of Percy and Ron in relation to the Dark Side, I don't picture either of them actually going over to it. That would require a hell of a lot of suspended disbelief on our part. However, there are other things that could happen where Percy, Ron, or someone else could cause a good deal of trouble for Dumbledore, Harry, Hagrid, Sirius, Lupin... Would Percy think he was doing the right thing by turning in a giant (like Hagrid's mom) to the MoM? I think he would. Could Ron and Hermione start spending oodles of time together alone, leaving Harry out? Absolutely. In PoA, when Neville lost his list of passwords, thus letting Sirius into the Gryffindor rooms, he caused a great deal of trouble, but he certainly did not do it on purpose. I see more events like that. Don't we all know people who are so strident in their own beliefs that they are willing to step all over someone else's? Percy's ambition is nice, but his thirst to please those in charge at the MoM could bring about devastating results. That still does not mean that Percy is anywhere near the Dark Side. Just my two knuts. --jenny from ravenclaw***************************** From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 15:07:50 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 08:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley (and Ron) In-Reply-To: <9fdgbm+bfr3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010603150750.79119.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20007 > In PoA, when Neville lost his list of passwords, thus letting > Sirius into the Gryffindor rooms, he caused a great deal of > trouble, but he certainly did not do it on purpose. He certainly didn't because he didn't lose the list. Crookshanks stole it from his bedside. Neville assumed he'd lost it because he always loses things. Now the question is: is Crookshanks evil? Or is he just your typical run-of-the-mill cat-type evil? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From joy0823 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 3 15:27:26 2001 From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:27:26 -0400 Subject: Filk (was HP4GU Contest #4 Results) References: <9fc8v5+d489@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007901c0ec41$b59f01a0$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20008 The brilliant, must-read, superbureaucraticmagicaladministration filk is message #19408. ~Joy~ Schlobin wrote: > Please, please...I've been away for too long..someone point me in the > direction of that filk -- where is it? From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 3 15:35:03 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 15:35:03 -0000 Subject: Neville and Crookshanks (was: Percy Weasley (and Ron) In-Reply-To: <20010603150750.79119.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fdlf7+aatd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20009 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich wrote: > He certainly didn't because he didn't lose the list. Crookshanks > stole it from his bedside. Neville assumed he'd lost it because > he always loses things. > > Now the question is: is Crookshanks evil? Or is he just your > typical run-of-the-mill cat-type evil? Crookshanks wasn't being evil at all; he was being heroic. He stole the list of passwords on purpose to give it to Padfoot so that Padfoot could get into the dorm and catch Wormtail, because Crookshanks is a good judge of character and understood that Padfoot was a good guy and Wormtail was a bad guy long before any of the human characters did. Nowdays it is generally believed that the reason Crookshanks is a good judge of character is because of being part Kneazle (being part Kneazle was confirmed in a JKR interview). "The Kneazle has an uncanny ability to detect unsavory or suspicious characters" says FB. From jearles at berkshire.rr.com Sun Jun 3 16:01:10 2001 From: jearles at berkshire.rr.com (Joe Earles) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:01:10 -0400 Subject: God, I Love Rumors... (WAS: Re: interview) Message-ID: <001701c0ec46$6849b260$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20010 This *IS* Harry Potter for GROWNUPS, isn't it? Honestly.... >And the possibility of JKR revealing it without causing an immediate >explosion of "Harry Potter's Godfather Gay?" headlines and a >raft of talk-show debates is even less plausible. > >Amy Z See, this is where someone's "sense of humor" can really make a mess of things. Forgive me, but WADR was this little joke *really* worth the controversy? Was it really worth several threads worth of responses and speculations? Is the person who started the rumor trying to ruin the Harry Potter experience for the rest of us? Honestly, the things some people do for fun or think are funny... I'm at a loss. You can call me anything you want...say I'm a homophobe, call me intolerant or narrow-minded but for the half-second I thought it might be true all my visions of sitting with my son reading the books with him - being able to say, "Here, son, is THE great fairy tale for your generation," reading along with him with a sense of pride, watching him marvel at Harry's world the way his mother and I do - just vanished into a funk. I then regained my sense of logic and decided that the source of the information was WAY too suspect to take seriously. Further investigation proved me corect. Still, I'll be damned if I'd ever put something in front of my kid that validates that kind of lifestyle and tries to portray it as normal. The little joke that was played on this group was nothing short of sick. I hope beyond hopes that it will end right here, that further less-than-wholesome speculations be kept to the speculators' own selves, thereby quelling any further tarnishment of this story, its characters, its reputation or its charm. Flames may be directed to jearles-at-berkshire-dot-rr-dot-com, for the sake of keeping it off the list. I'm sure there will be a few.... From indigo at indigosky.net Sun Jun 3 15:55:44 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 15:55:44 -0000 Subject: Neville and Crookshanks (was: Percy Weasley (and Ron) In-Reply-To: <9fdlf7+aatd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fdmm0+a0eh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20011 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich wrote: > > > He certainly didn't because he didn't lose the list. Crookshanks > > stole it from his bedside. Neville assumed he'd lost it because > > he always loses things. > > > > Now the question is: is Crookshanks evil? Or is he just your > > typical run-of-the-mill cat-type evil? > > Crookshanks wasn't being evil at all; he was being heroic. Arguably. He stole > the list of passwords on purpose to give it to Padfoot so that > Padfoot could get into the dorm and catch Wormtail, because > Crookshanks is a good judge of character and understood that Padfoot > was a good guy and Wormtail was a bad guy long before any of the > human characters did. The human characters didn't know Wormtail was a *guy* at *all*, let alone a bad one, until the very end. Nowdays it is generally believed that the > reason Crookshanks is a good judge of character is because of being > part Kneazle (being part Kneazle was confirmed in a JKR interview). > "The Kneazle has an uncanny ability to detect unsavory or suspicious > characters" says FB. But I don't know if I'd call it heroic. Neville caught holy hell for 'losing' the list, and he never did any such thing; it was stolen. It could be said that Crookshanks thought Sirius' plight warranted him getting in and getting Pettigrew a higher priority over Neville remembering his passwords... It could also be said that Crookshanks might've done it to teach Neville the lesson that he should work to improve his memory. So, arguably heroic. Indigo From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 15:57:13 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 15:57:13 -0000 Subject: at rebirthing/interview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fdmop+hukv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20012 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" wrote: > Craig wrote: > > >Yes, I truly believe that some listies would be crushed if H/H were > >not a possibility. > > Where did this come from? Unless you're referring to yourself Oh, please, can't a person draw an inference? Despite being a latecomer to the group, I've read the nearly 20,000 messages in the yahoogroups archive. My statement was a judgment call, based on what some of those messages said. Just because you would have no problem with your fave ship not coming true, does not imply that others here wouldn't. As for myself, I don't care if any ships ever come to pass - I'd be just as happy with H/H as R/H or H/R. It makes no difference to me. ....Craig From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Jun 3 16:43:46 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 16:43:46 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley (and Ron) In-Reply-To: <20010603150750.79119.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fdpg2+t6tb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20013 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich wrote: > He certainly didn't because he didn't lose the list. Crookshanks > stole it from his bedside. Neville assumed he'd lost it because he > always loses things. > Oops - my bad! True, Neville did not lose the list, but he did leave it lying around, and leaving passwords and other "classified" information lying around is not the smartest thing to do, especially when the entire schooll believe that Sirius was extremely dangerous and was lurking around Gryffindor in particular. I still think Neville caused trouble, but like I said, he absolutely did not mean to. --jenny from ravenclaw****************************************** From rja.carnegie at excite.com Sun Jun 3 16:59:48 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 16:59:48 -0000 Subject: Neville and Crookshanks (was: Percy Weasley (and Ron) In-Reply-To: <9fdmm0+a0eh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fdqe4+a2f3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20014 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" wrote: > > "The Kneazle has an uncanny ability to detect unsavory or > > suspicious characters" says FB. > > But I don't know if I'd call it heroic. > > Neville caught holy hell for 'losing' the list, and he never did any > such thing; it was stolen. > > It could be said that Crookshanks thought Sirius' plight warranted > him getting in and getting Pettigrew a higher priority over Neville > remembering his passwords... > > It could also be said that Crookshanks might've done it to teach > Neville the lesson that he should work to improve his memory. I wouldn't say "heroic", either, only because anyone could have done it. But Neville _did_ have it coming. I checked back again (POA chapter 13): Professor McGonagall accuses him of writing the passwords down (true) and leaving them lying around (apparently true, but apparently _in_ the dormitory, so not so bad). It's interesting that Crookshanks can recognise Neville's list of passwords, but can't actually tell Black the password that presumably he's heard Hermione using, and can't memorise them, either - or Neville needn't have lost the list at all. Well, the "most intelligent" cat that Black's ever met maybe isn't saying much, since Black is much, much more a dog person. Incidentally, if Crookshanks _is_ part Kneazle - FB also says you need a licence to keep a Kneazle, so does Hermione have a cat licence? Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From banjoken at optonline.net Sun Jun 3 17:32:06 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 17:32:06 -0000 Subject: God, I Love Rumors... In-Reply-To: <001701c0ec46$6849b260$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <9fdsam+q96l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20015 I'm really sorry to do this, but I cannot in good concience let it go. I'll save the homophobia bit for now, and get on with the main point. First it was an obvious joke, and I'm sure it was intended as such. Second, and I think most important, HP is just a story. It's a marvelous one, and it's certianly worthy of the serious discussion it gets here, but in the end, it's only fiction. I really wanted to stay out of the homophobia, but there's just one comment I have to make. >Still, I'll be damned if I'd ever > put something in front of my kid that validates that kind of >lifestyle and tries to portray it as normal. How is this attitude any different from the attitude the Dursely's have about magic? What makes one "abnormality" (magic) acceptable and another disgusting? Ken From rja.carnegie at excite.com Sun Jun 3 17:37:35 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 17:37:35 -0000 Subject: God, I Love Rumors... (WAS: Re: interview) In-Reply-To: <001701c0ec46$6849b260$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <9fdskv+b4l6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20016 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joe Earles" wrote: > This *IS* Harry Potter for GROWNUPS, isn't it? Honestly.... > > >And the possibility of JKR revealing it without causing an immediate > >explosion of "Harry Potter's Godfather Gay?" headlines and a > >raft of talk-show debates is even less plausible. > > > >Amy Z > > > See, this is where someone's "sense of humor" can really make a mess of > things. Forgive me, but WADR was this little joke *really* worth the > controversy? Well, you overlooked the detail that this "news" was allegedly (and in fact not at all) revealed in conversation with JKR, and not in the books. JKR's aware that she's writing for all ages, and - while I haven't met the veela yet - I don't think she's going to make /any/ kind of sexual motive a big theme in the books. Percy daydreaming over his girlfriend's photograph is surely as much as we need to know about. Someone else already wrote _Forever_, this isn't it. That's not to say that in JKR's mind, characters in the books can't have relationships that aren't told - back-story. Why does Dumbledore blush when Madam Pomfrey admires his earmuffs? What about Hagrid kissing Professor McGonagall? It's also not to say that credible relationships between adults, even relationships that we don't approve of, shouldn't be portrayed in books for children or for young adults. It's still educational - particularly since we surely hope that our children will grow up to be adults some day, with adult judgment - which they'll need, anyway, since we can't censor their experiences for the rest of their lives. My own view is that what was alleged would probably be illegal if these were real people, but would not be impossible. I did resent being taken in, though. My own phobias aside, I'd have appreciated a better clue - James/Sirius instead of Remus/Sirius would have made me more suspicious. But then, I have no idea where (who?) Ann Arbor is, whether it's America's Hay-on-Wye or whatever, and I also strongly suspect that I'm generally more gullible than most folks. For that matter, we've only your word for it that you're so offended. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From blpurdom at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 17:48:08 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley (and Ron) In-Reply-To: <20010603150750.79119.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010603174808.42532.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20017 --- Magda Grantwich wrote: > > In PoA, when Neville lost his list of passwords, > thus letting > > Sirius into the Gryffindor rooms, he caused a > great deal of > > trouble, but he certainly did not do it on > purpose. > > He certainly didn't because he didn't lose the list. > Crookshanks > stole it from his bedside. Neville assumed he'd > lost it because he > always loses things. > > Now the question is: is Crookshanks evil? Or is he > just your typical > run-of-the-mill cat-type evil? > Of course Crookshanks isn't evil! He was helping Sirius Black, remember? (Although there will undoubtedly be some kind of epiphany concerning Crookshanks in the future--he just seems to be hiding something...) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From pennylin at swbell.net Sun Jun 3 18:04:49 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 13:04:49 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Please Ignore Inflammatory Posts Message-ID: <3B1A7C41.2989EEBB@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20018 Hi -- The Moderators have responded to Joe off-list. Please do not respond to this thread of conversation. It's Off-Topic and has a strong potential to devolve into a flame war or a very heated discussion at the very least. Thanks -- Penny The Moderator Team From Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 18:00:34 2001 From: Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com (Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 18:00:34 -0000 Subject: God, I Love Rumors... (Where/Who is Ann Arbor) In-Reply-To: <9fdskv+b4l6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fdu02+km86@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20019 >But then, I have no idea where (who?) Ann Arbor is, whether it's America's > Hay-on-Wye or whatever, and I also strongly suspect that I'm > Robert Carnegie > Meretricious! It's up North in Michigan. http://msn.expedia.com/pub/agent.dll That's not a bad map that can give you a geographic idea. Belle From eggonmyhead at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 18:21:11 2001 From: eggonmyhead at hotmail.com (eggonmyhead at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 18:21:11 -0000 Subject: Mottos Message-ID: <9fdv6n+tj66@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20020 First of all, I'd like to say, can we leave topics such as homophobia alone, people have really different opinions on these things, and there just going to cause trouble. Secondly, I have the idea of discussing mottos for the houses, we know the motto of Hogwarts, but what about the individual houses - discussing it with friends we have come up with for slytherin - no matter if they hate us, as long as they fear us (a corruption of one of Emporer Tiberius' sayings (a genuine Slytherin if ever there was one.)) and for Hufflepuff - Underrepresented victims for over 1000 years - any ideas?? Thea_L_G From JamiDeise at aol.com Sun Jun 3 18:31:16 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:31:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid in Slytherin??? Message-ID: <20.1762f72b.284bdc74@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20021 In a message dated 6/3/2001 9:40:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk writes: << Finally, the giants may have an affinity with the Dark Side, but I don't think that it is said anywhere that they have any magical powers. Hagrid is not a pureblood wizard - he is half and half, and also he is only half human. The Slytherins pride themselves on being pureblood, therefore I can't see that a half giant would be acceptable to them, or sorted into their house. >> I don't think Hagrid belongs in Slytherin either. But last night my son and I were rereading PS/SS, and it bothered me that Hagrid never 'fessed up that Harry and Hermione were at the astronomy tower at midnight to save his skin. Considering what a small community Hogwarts is, and that they ended up doing their detention with him, he certainly knew the two of them were caught. Letting other people take the rap for you does not occur to me as a Gryffindor behavior. Jami From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 18:45:42 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 18:45:42 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: at rebirthing/interview Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20022 > > Craig wrote: > > > > >Yes, I truly believe that some listies would be crushed if H/H were > > >not a possibility. > > > > Where did this come from? Unless you're referring to yourself... >Oh, please, can't a person draw an inference? Of course. But just be prepared for the rebuttal. This is a public forum. :-) >Despite being a >latecomer to the group, I've read the nearly 20,000 messages in the >yahoogroups archive. My statement was a judgment call, based on >what some of those messages said. Just because you would have no >problem with your fave ship not coming true, does not imply that >others here wouldn't. Re-read my message, please. I addressed not just your statement, but the broad generalization you made within it. BTW, congratulations for reading the entire club archives. Not many here on this group can claim *that*. >As for myself, I don't care if any ships ever come to pass - I'd be >just as happy with H/H as R/H or H/R. It makes no difference to me. Harry/Hedwig, Remus/Hermione, and Hedwig/Rosmerta? Me either. ;-) --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 18:50:04 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 18:50:04 Subject: [HPforGrownups] God, I Love Rumors... (Where/Who is Ann Arbor) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20023 > >But then, I have no idea where (who?) Ann Arbor is, whether it's >America's > > Hay-on-Wye or whatever, and I also strongly suspect that I'm > > Robert Carnegie > > Meretricious! Belle wrote: >It's up North in Michigan. > >http://msn.expedia.com/pub/agent.dll >That's not a bad map that can give you a geographic idea. > Ann Arbor's a college town, the home of the University of Michigan, and about 25-30 minutes away from where I sit now... which is why I rolled my eyes at the silly rumor. If JKR had been anywhere in the vicinity, *someone* around here would have caught wind of it. --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From joym999 at aol.com Sun Jun 3 18:55:33 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 18:55:33 -0000 Subject: Nitpicker Alert, was Re: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fe175+anfv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20024 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" wrote: > > From: Amy Z [mailto:aiz24 at h...] > > 2. If you could buy one treat at Honeydukes, what would it be? > > Hm, difficult question. I can tell you what I would *not* buy, though: > Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans. Too afraid of the earwax taste. ;-) > Maybe I would go for the Sherbet Lemons that Dumbledore seems > to favor. I just love the taste of lemons. As a card-carrying member of L.O.O.N. (League Of Obsessive Nitpickers), I feel obligated to inform you that you would NOT be able to buy Sherbet Lemons at Honeydukes, since Sherbet Lemons are a muggle sweet, as Dumbledore explains in the first chapter of PS/SS. Confusing, because the American editions call them lemon drops in SS, but call them sherbet lemons in GoF, whereas the English editions always call them sherbet lemons. And, having tasted lots of yummy British sweets thanks to John W. and Neil, I will attest that sherbet lemons and lemon drops are really not the same thing. Is this confusing or what? --Joywitch From john at walton.to Sun Jun 3 19:03:29 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 15:03:29 -0400 Subject: Official L.O.O.N. Memorandum In-Reply-To: <9fe175+anfv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20025 TO: Ms. Joywitch M. Curmudgeon Editor-in-Chief The Daily Prophet FROM: Anal P. Lardbottom Deputy Misrepresentation Office League Of Obsessive Nitpickers RE: L.O.O.N. Membership Dear Ms. Curmudgeon, We here at L.O.O.N. recently noticed your message entitled "Nitpicker Alert". We also note that your membership of L.O.O.N. expired as of 5/1/01, and that you are therefore no longer entitled to use your status as an Official L.O.O.N. in message posting. Should you continue to misuse the L.O.O.N. mark, we will be forced to send large hairy thugs around to your house to pull off your toenails. Have a Nice Day. Luv 'n' kisses, A.P. Lardbottom From john at walton.to Sun Jun 3 19:08:01 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 15:08:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mottos In-Reply-To: <9fdv6n+tj66@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20026 eggonmyhead at hotmail.com said: > Secondly, I have the idea of discussing mottos for the houses, we > know the motto of Hogwarts, but what about the individual houses - > discussing it with friends we have come up with for slytherin - no > matter if they hate us, as long as they fear us (a corruption of one > of Emporer Tiberius' sayings (a genuine Slytherin if ever there was > one.)) and for Hufflepuff - Underrepresented victims for over 1000 > years - any ideas?? Gryffindor: "Gimme a G! (G!) Gimme an R! (R!) Gimme a Y! (Y!) Gimme a F! (F!) Umm...what comes after F?" Ravenclaw: "There's a reason we're better than you, but you wouldn't understand it." Slytherin: "Evil is only a state of mind." Hufflepuff: "The World's Greatest Also-Rans" --John From corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 19:15:00 2001 From: corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com (Doreen Rich) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 19:15:00 -0000 Subject: Shrek and the HP Trailer! Message-ID: <9fe2bk+pgtk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20027 Last night, my son and I went to see Shrek. (my idea) I don't remember when I laughed so hard, and for so long, and so many times! I was in tears! It really helps to have a fairy tale, disney movie, been to Disney World background to watch Shrek. My son said that I laughed a few more times than anyone there. Before the movie started, during the previews, the Warner Bros. logo came up. All I could think was, "Yeah, right. I should be so lucky!" Then ... "tinkle tinkle tinkle" ... John Williams, *oh* *so* recognizable music (for those of us who have played the HP Trailer 1,000 times!) started to play! I sat bolt upright! I was so excited that I almost could not sit still!! I believe that I said, "Oh my God!" about 17 times! It was fantastic! And when Alan Rickman came on, I almost dumped my popcorn! Where is the pause and rewind button when you need one? I could have watched it over and over and over ... well, I am sure you all know what I mean. A great time was had by all. We talked about the movie and the trailer all the way home, laughing almost as hard as we did during the movie! Doreen, who can't wait for the HP movie now, and who wants to see Shrek a couple more times too. A definite must buy video! From maestrie at libero.it Sun Jun 3 19:26:21 2001 From: maestrie at libero.it (Elena Maestri) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 21:26:21 +0200 Subject: Tom Riddle (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20028 Tom Riddle (To the tune of The Riddle, by Nik Kershaw; the original version may be heard at http://mail.online.ie/kershaw/samples.cfm) THE SCENE: Professor McGonagall's Office after the episode in the Chamber of Secrets. Enter HARRY POTTER HARRY POTTER We were going down, straight in the bathroom pipe, ?cause I?m a Parselmouth and heard some talking in the walls that Ginny Weasley, little child, was not safe. In the Chamber of Secrets there?s a very big snake. You can call it a basilisk, quite horrible name. In the fangs there?s a poison that can kill even ghosts. Just a look from its eyes and you will be petrified, and you?ll never, never find out why? Just to be secure, called a professor who could help us in the fight. Instead it happens he?s a fraud! Oh, quite magical indeed! Lockhart tried to make a charm? All our memories could just be gone away, instead the faulty wand prevented him from doing harm! Now he remembers nothing more: well for us! In the Chamber of Secrets there?s a very big snake. You can call it a basilisk, quite horrible name. In the fangs there?s a poison that can kill even ghosts. Just a look from its eyes and you will be petrified, and you?ll never, never find out why? I got Tom to kill, and the big serpent too: without the help of Fawkes, the phoenix bird of Dumbledore, I would have never had it good. All ends well! In the Chamber of Secrets, when I met Riddle Tom, I discovered the identity of Slytherin?s heir. I was then badly wounded and I thought I could fail, but a bird came to rescue and I got Godric?s sword, so the serpent I could fight. In the Chamber of Secrets was a very big snake and an old Hogwarts student who became Voldemort. With the help of the phoenix and of the Sorting Hat we recovered poor Ginny and redeemed Hagrid?s name. And it?s just the second year of school: who knows what will happen till I?m through?.. - elena From andromache815 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 06:42:07 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:42:07 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron/Hermione's betrayal - Slyths References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20029 Ebony: The more and more I read canon and fanfic, the more ways I can see Ron, Hermione, or both being used against Harry in some fashion. Voluntarily or involuntarily. The enemy has a smorgasbord of choices--it remains to be seen which choice will be made. You always come up with interesting ideas that require deep thinking, a capacity I don't think I have. However, I can see the truth in this statement. Ron's got a major temper and pities himself. This makes him vulnerable to bad influences. However, Hermione seems easily intimidated, which could work against her. I wonder if she feels isolated, being so smart and skilled at most every subject. To her credit, though, I don't think she's arrogant. Hermione would be one no one would expect to be used as a pawn, but we've already seen her lose her head with Lockhart, even when he made mistakes right in front of her eyes. I could definitely see her being manipulated. Jami: "Hagrid did say in PS/SS that every Dark witch and wizard had come out of that house. Which makes me wonder ... why doesn't Dumbledore just abolish the house of Slytherin completely? Let the Sorting Hat identify those Slytherinish students, and boot them out the back door. Why give those with the propensity toward evil, the tools they need to become better and stronger wizards and witches?" You know, there's a post by me on the way (it's been delayed) that asks this very same question. Strange that we'd ask the same question on the same day. But back on topic. The flip side, of course, is when there is a good Slytherin. Granted, most are bad, but when you have a good one on your side, you have a powerful ally who will do almost anything to achieve the goal of good. S/he would also probably be excellent at strategy and planning, because they'd be cautious and would look out for ways the enemy could cheat. I think the qualities Slytherin values are realistic, and enable them to succeed. They know how to survive in this world, which is admirable in my view. Slyths do seem to take them to extremes, but trusting people who are untrustworthy is dangerous, too, so ideal values are not good in extremes either. I think people should have a healthy dose of mistrust and ambition. They keep people out of trouble and enable them to be famous. OMG, I sound like a Slyth, praising them and all. Ah well. When I was younger, I totally believed in the Gryffindores' ideals. However, experience has shown me that bad people are out there, and so I've come to also value Slytherin's realistic values. Vicky, bracing herself for the inevitable flames/disagreements [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From reanna20 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 19:43:32 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jump This Way (Filk) Message-ID: <20010603194332.83286.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20030 WARNING: I am *not* normally a filker. Never written a filk in my life, so try to ignore the rhyme and meter inconsistencies. But what can I say, I was inspired by Caius! And this song cried to be done. Although, I must say, the concept was already done by Caius in message 15797 (the filk "Threes"). He is the Filk-meister Supreme! Sung to the song "Walk This Way" by Aerosmith Dedicated to Caius Marcius (because he's cool and deserves it, darnit!) [In Moody's classroom. Moody is teaching about the Unforgivable Curses] Moody: Since you're behind on the Curses and ahead on the Creatures, We'll talk Unforgivables. Now there're three types of spells that will give you the chills And all unimaginable. There's the Cruciatus, the Avada Kedavra, Which I have already reminisced. So it'll be the Imperius that'll pull you forward And make you do silly things with a twist Like this! [Moody casts spell on Dean Thomas, Lavender Brown, and Neville Longbottom during the ultra-cool guitar solo] Moody: Look at their antics, see them do things they oughtn't Don't you feel your chest tighten with hate? Mister Thomas hopped and sang, Miss Brown acted like a squirrel And Mister Longbottom a gymnast great Potter it's your turn, let's see you writhe and squirm And jump on the desk with glee Let me cast the spell, you surely won't feel a thing You won't be able to run and flee When I tell you to Jump this way. Jump this way. Jump this way. Jump this way. Like this! [Moody casts spell and Harry fights it...again during cool guitar solo] Moody: Hey that's more like it, just look at him fighting The commands that I give to him All of you should be trying what Potter is attempting Try to overcome the Curse and win But you didn't do it right, bumped your knees on the desk Almost fractured both your legs amiss So we'll try it again until you can defeat this Curse Just try to ignore that happy mist Like this [Moody casts spell on Harry four more times during...aw, forget it, you know the drill] Harry: My legs are a'shaking and my legs are a'quaking But I've finally overcome this Curse It took five times casting, and five times hitting The damn desk 'til I could reverse And while I hurt I realize with relief That Voldemort won't ever command me Thanks to Moody I'll be ready when he comes Which he will 'cause my name is Harry! Moody told me to Jump this way. Jump this way. Jump this way. Jump this way. Jump this way. Jump this way. Jump this way. Jump this way. [Entire class boogies down as Moody conjures a guitar and starts jammin'] ~Amber (What can I say...I love Rock 'n' Roll!) ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/2/2001 " 'I think it was a bit of an overreaction,' said the serpent. 'I mean, first offense and everything. I can't see what's so bad about knowing the difference between good and evil, anyway.' " - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 19:45:31 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 19:45:31 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Please Ignore Inflammatory Posts In-Reply-To: <3B1A7C41.2989EEBB@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9fe44r+gcqt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20031 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote: > Hi -- > > The Moderators have responded to Joe off-list. Please do not respond to > this thread of conversation. It's Off-Topic and has a strong potential > to devolve into a flame war or a very heated discussion at the very > least. > > Thanks -- > > Penny > The Moderator Team Penny, I know that you have a thankless and an almost impossible task, but I think that you did not act impartially in this matter. JKR did not write a slash fic, and anyone who sees such in the books is indulging in wishful thinking, at best. Why is Joe's response any more inflammatory than the twisting of the HP canon into something it was never intended to be? It doesn't help the situation to write it off with a "can't you take a joke?" smugness. The HP books are most carefully crafted to achieve their effect, I think we would all agree. It does no good to defecate in the baptismal font, metaphorically, and then tell the parishioners to "lighten up." This is by no means a dfense of homophobia. However, respect for the other guys point of view runs in both directions. I will add no more fuel to this fire, but I had to have my say, for what it's worth. Haggridd From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 19:51:31 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nitpicker Alert, was Re: Chapter Summary - PoA 10 & 11 In-Reply-To: <9fe175+anfv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010603195131.35087.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20032 --- joym999 at aol.com wrote: > Confusing, because the American editions call them > lemon drops in SS, > but call them sherbet lemons in GoF, whereas the > English editions > always call them sherbet lemons. Ah! And here I thought it was a nitpick that Harry remembers the password to Dumbledore's office in GOF as "Sherbert lemon" whereas in SS it was "lemon drop." Translators didn't change it in GOF! Thank you so much for clearing that up. :) And just for the record, I think I would like the sugar quills, since I always chew on my pens anyway. ;) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 20:13:13 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:13:13 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] God, I Love Rumors... (WAS: Re: interview) References: <001701c0ec46$6849b260$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <009801c0ec69$9e7c4780$5772023e@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 20033 > all my visions of sitting with my son > reading the books with him - being able to say, "Here, son, is THE great > fairy tale for your generation," reading along with him with a sense of > pride, watching him marvel at Harry's world the way his mother and I do - > just vanished into a funk. Joe: I'm a Christian theologian with a specialization in polemics, so I could hardly help taking interest in your post. But I found the sentence above heartbreaking: why on earth should a disagreement about a single point of sexual moral theory obliterate your joy in a work you otherwise love? I'm not denying that sexuality is an important part of our lives deserving careful reflection--but are respect, friendship, beauty, humility, kindness, wisdom and courage (the HP stories have them all in spades!) such flimsy virtues that a question of sexuality could destroy all your joy in them? If we can't love, respect and learn from people--and works--until they agree with us on all points, we are very unhappy people indeed. I'd be happy to continues the discussion off list. Mike Gray (a.k.a. Aberforth's Goat) From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 20:36:17 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:36:17 +0200 Subject: New List: HPFGU-Germany References: Message-ID: <00ce01c0ec6c$d6e1f6d0$5772023e@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 20034 ATTN: CROSSPOST to Main List, Chatter List and Announcement List! ------------------------------ Hi All! Anyone who lives in the German-speaking part of Europe is warmly invited to stop by the HPFGU-Germany list for a mug of Bavarian beer, a Zrcher Bratwurst, and a generous slab of Viennese Sachertorte. (Not to mention whatever delicacies Italian and French German-speakers eat: Tagliatelle with Snails and Sauerkraut, anybody?) With a bit of luck, we may be able to get up a meet or two! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Germany Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high." From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 3 20:41:25 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:41:25 -0000 Subject: Please don't yell at me Admin... Message-ID: <9fe7dl+b0h1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20035 While I am generally a lurker, throwing my 2 knuts in when I have a wild hair, I feel I just gotta say this! I can't imagine loving these books any less, regardless of any rumours/silly jokes/bouts of twisted humour. There is no reason to. If JKR wanted to put it in, then let her, they ARE her books! Will I still read them? Heck yeah! I need to know how Harry overcomes Voldemort in the end!!! I beg of you all, please be nice to each other, respect each others opinions (even if you don't agree, and frankly, I am an adamant non-supporter of homophobes) ... I love you guys!! (even though I don't know any of you!) On another random sidenote, whoever the floridian was that is looking for water to fight fires ... write me! I'm looking for the same thing, so I don't have quite so many calls! Ok, I'm done, Admin can feel free to write me and yell at me now! :) Michelle <--- Loves Robert Carnegie's posts!!! From priscilla at theninemuses.net Sun Jun 3 20:42:19 2001 From: priscilla at theninemuses.net (Priscilla Spencer) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:42:19 -0500 Subject: Dumbledore the bumblebee? Not likely Message-ID: <054e01c0ec6d$af75d7a0$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> No: HPFGUIDX 20036 I regret not jumping into this thread back when we were discussing it last week, but I have to express my opinion that Dumbledore is not an animagus. For starters, when asked where the name "Dumbledore" came from, Jo said without hesitation that it was an old English word for "bumblebee". She then explained that she thought of him as someone who went around humming to himself (hence the love for chamber music). While this may be an example of humans strongly resembling their animagi counterparts, do you really believe that Jo would have given away such an obvious and vital clue if she had planned to surprise us with that revelation later in the series? This is another reason why I believe the revelation about Lily in #7 (the Kneesocks of Fear -- order your copy today!) won't have anything to do with her surname "Evans". While the "Severus Snape = Perseus Evans" theory was fairly intriguing, I don't think anything will come of it. I can't remember Jo ever pulling off a shocker based entirely on facts handed to us on an interview's silver platter. No matter how much fun I think analysis of these books can be, members of this group can be rather prone to overanalysis. Oh well. At least we're not a group of Elizabeth Schafers. Priscilla Spencer http://www.theninemuses.net/hp From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sun Jun 3 20:47:09 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:47:09 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley: Ministry Scape-Goat In-Reply-To: <20010601221325.25627.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fe7od+m8j1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20037 The last Percy-Ron-Ginny discussion forced me to re-read (yet again!) and re-consider my thoughts about them. Percy does have annoying characteristics like arrogance, pretentiousness and self-importance. His unquestioning loyality to Crouch Sr wasn't a very helpful characteristic either. But the end of GoF, left Percy's fate unanswered. All we know is that he was being questioned by the Ministry concerning Crouch's disappearance. Depending on how much influence Fudge has, I can see Percy being framed for Crouch's disappearance and even possible Azkaban time for him. >From what's in the books, I figure Voldemort and Peter showed up at the Crouch home in the week before Harry starts school. (Percy makes a remark that Mr. Crouch is relying more.) I can see where it would seem suspicious that Crouch barely knows Percy's name one week, then begins to rely more and more on him. Percy is a relatively new employee. Usually, you give the brunt of the responsibility to the more senior people due to familiarity with the work/procedures. Percy probably is known by his colleagues at the Ministry to be very ambitious. When Crouch finally disappears due to an illness, Percy is the only one with whom he stays in contact through letters of instruction. So it can appear that Percy was so power-hungry and ambitious that he gained Crouch's confidence, began to control him and eliminated him. Percy knew that Crouch Sr. lived alone since the dismissal of Winky. Being Crouch's personal assistant, Percy had the opportunity to curse Crouch and to kill him. Also there's the bone in Hagrid's yard. Crouch Jr told Dumbledore that he turned Crouch Sr. into a bone and buried him in the Hagrid's yard. So technically, they have a body: they just need to transform it back into Crouch Sr. (This is kind of gross, so skip it if you want) With forensic pathology, you can tell approximately the time of death by the amount of decomposition. If Crouch Sr.'s body does not decompose because it was turned into a bone, then it would be nearly impossible to determine the time of death. We know that by the time of the Yule Ball, Crouch was "ill" and Percy was filling in for him. So basically, Percy could have had the opportunity to dump the bone on Hogwarts ground or he could have gone there one evening and secretly slipped it into Hagrid's yard. The only person who could unequivocally exonerate Percy is Barty Crouch Jr., who was demented and can't give any evidence. Dumbledore's, Harry's, and anyone else's could be easily discounted as lunacy or even as a conspiracy against Fudge. Molly alludes to the fact that Fudge doesn't like Muggles and Arthur's fondness for Muggles has held him back in the Fudge Administration. Dumbledore doesn't share Fudge's dislike for Muggles and he basically told Fudge to get stuffed. McGonagall works for Dumbledore so her testimony would be questionable. Snape, well, poor Snape wouldn't be credible because he was a Death Eater. Harry's own description of Crouch Sr that night could be damning to Percy too. Crouch never mentions anyone by name. All Harry knows is that Crouch was trying to contact Dumbledore and that he lapsed in and out of coherence. Compounded by the fact that Fudge seemed very hesistant to believe Dumbledore and Harry about Voldemort's return. I think he will do just about anything to pacify the wizarding world concerning Crouch Sr's disappearance. Ginny, I don't think will betray Harry. She's already been a pawn and I think that she's learned from that experience. Ron has his problems too. But I think Cedric's death (and Percy's potential problems)will force him to get over the petty squabbling. Milz From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 20:50:52 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:50:52 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron/Hermione's betrayal Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20038 Me: The more and more I read canon and fanfic, the more ways I can see Ron, Hermione, or both being used against Harry in some fashion. Voluntarily or involuntarily. The enemy has a smorgasbord of choices--it remains to be seen which choice will be made. Vicky: However, Hermione seems easily intimidated, which could work against her. I wonder if she feels isolated, being so smart and skilled at most every subject. To her credit, though, I don't think she's arrogant. Hermione would be one no one would expect to be used as a pawn, but we've already seen her lose her head with Lockhart, even when he made mistakes right in front of her eyes. I could definitely see her being manipulated. Oh, yeah. What about a future-canon!Hermione embarking upon a Faustian quest for knowledge? Perhaps her investigative/research bent ("I've got to go to the library!") can be used against her... and her friends. --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From priscilla at theninemuses.net Sun Jun 3 21:02:03 2001 From: priscilla at theninemuses.net (Priscilla Spencer) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 16:02:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mottos Message-ID: <056d01c0ec70$71434460$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> No: HPFGUIDX 20039 How about that classic: "Hufflepuffs: We toil well" Priscilla Spencer http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/ eggonmyhead at hotmail.com said: > Secondly, I have the idea of discussing mottos for the houses, we > know the motto of Hogwarts, but what about the individual houses - > discussing it with friends we have come up with for slytherin - no > matter if they hate us, as long as they fear us (a corruption of one > of Emporer Tiberius' sayings (a genuine Slytherin if ever there was > one.)) and for Hufflepuff - Underrepresented victims for over 1000 > years - any ideas?? Gryffindor: "Gimme a G! (G!) Gimme an R! (R!) Gimme a Y! (Y!) Gimme a F! (F!) Umm...what comes after F?" Ravenclaw: "There's a reason we're better than you, but you wouldn't understand it." Slytherin: "Evil is only a state of mind." Hufflepuff: "The World's Greatest Also-Rans" --John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Sun Jun 3 21:26:04 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 16:26:04 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Clarification re: Inflammatory Posts References: <9fe44r+gcqt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B1AAB6C.1755F770@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20040 Hi -- I'm working on very little sleep these days, so if my previous post was not entirely clear, I apologize. My point is: debates about the sexuality of various HP characters is on-topic and perfectly fine with me. Debates about the morality/immorality of homosexuality in general is *Off-Topic.* If members (including Joe) want to debate the issue of whether any slash pairing of the HP characters is possible, that's fine by me. Haggridd wrote: > Penny, I know that you have a thankless and an almost impossible task, > but I think that you did not act impartially in this matter. JKR did > not write a slash fic, and anyone who sees such in the books is > indulging in wishful thinking, at best. I see your point in general Hagridd, but I do think you should qualify statements like above with "In my opinion." JKR is the only one who can tell us definitively what her authorial intent is with respect to these books. We are all merely interpretative readers, with a variety of opinions. > It doesn't help the situation to write it off with a "can't you take a > joke?" smugness. I'm sorry you interpreted my message yesterday as smugness. I simply thought it was wise to remind everyone that Susan's post was a joke and not a truth (or even a viable rumor). There were several posts by members who seemed to have taken her message as other than a joke, and I simply wanted to clarify that in case Susan didn't step in and do this herself for a few hours or even days. I honestly cannot even believe that her post has sparked this much controversy. Ann Arbor seems to me to be an unlikely venue for an impromptu book reading by JKR. Then again, I am clearly sleep-deprived at the moment. Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rja.carnegie at excite.com Sun Jun 3 21:47:05 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 21:47:05 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald anagram (was Saying Voldemort's name) In-Reply-To: <9efuto+iarg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9feb8p+tbje@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20041 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > Talking about red herrings, did anyone notice that the name > Grindelwald contains the letters R I D D L and E. The remaining > letters are then G N W A L - I can't make anything of it but I'm sure > you will! Just add a suitable phrase like 'I am Lord...' and take it > from there. > > David Picked this up from my mental "to do" list but couldn't remember quite why it was there. Anyway, for what it's worth, EVA GRINDELWALD = LARGE EVIL WAND, but that isn't exactly what you asked for. Anyway, it should probably be something in (Swiss) German instead...? BINCHI GRINDELWALD = ICH BIN EIN AGRDLWLD. Um, no. Ask "our" new German list, perhaps? (Although the secret of Tom Riddle's name rather depends on English words, so it may have been literally lost in translation.) If the Dark Wizard Grindelwald has been identified as male (I think "wizard" sometimes is, sometimes isn't), Eva may be either a Polyjuice Potion experiment that I, for one, won't emulate or else his bossy older sister. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From SHENmagic at aol.com Sun Jun 3 21:58:38 2001 From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:58:38 EDT Subject: Confirmation of Crookshanks as part Kneazle? Message-ID: <99.15c74de8.284c0d0e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20042 "Rita Winston" writes >>Crookshanks is a good judge of character is because of being >>part Kneazle (being part Kneazle was confirmed in a JKR interview). Where, Rita? I'd love to read a JKR interview, especially if recent. In fact, I miss having announcements of interviews and HP world news on HPGU. I understand about volume problems, but still wish this group allowed such news the Announcements spinoff doesn't seem to do it. Aylihael From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 22:03:00 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: This is inevitable. In-Reply-To: <9fc9p0+ods5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010603220300.31060.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20043 It seems very likely to me that one of the "good" characters will turn to the bad side, for a bit atleast. I have my hunch that it is possible that Ron might be the one, the only reason I say this is lets say Hermione decides that she likes Harry, Ron decides he likes her...well that is just one more thing to add to the whole Harry/jealousy thing. I don't know I hardly doubt that it will ever happen but it's just a thought. Ginny is another likely character to have some temptation..she a very sweet and from what i can see shy girl she it is somewhat likely to me that she might try and be friend some of the darker characters, just because she wouldn't be the type to judge them. I have heard possibly Draco (though that seems unlikely). The one thing I can not shake is that the Weasley's are too big a family to all stay good, I mean somebody is going to turn I think. Maybe not Percy, I do think he really cares about his family and I see a lot of times where he seems to want to be friends with Harry to some degree. Just my thoughts. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From john at walton.to Sun Jun 3 22:02:38 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 18:02:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Confirmation of Crookshanks as part Kneazle? In-Reply-To: <99.15c74de8.284c0d0e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20044 SHENmagic at aol.com said: >>> Crookshanks is a good judge of character is because of being > >>> part Kneazle (being part Kneazle was confirmed in a JKR interview). > > Where, Rita? I'd love to read a JKR interview, especially if recent. In fact, > I miss having announcements of interviews and HP world news on HPGU. I > understand about volume problems, but still wish this group allowed such > news the Announcements spinoff doesn't seem to do it. > Aylihael I thought it was in the Blue Peter interview in the top level of the Files section, but I've just checked and it's not. It's almost certainly in one of the interviews since March (when FB was released). --John, feeling particularly "less-than-wholesome" today :D What am I, a breakfast cereal? ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to Current... Movie: Shrek. 11/10! CD: Shrek Soundtrack ::grin:: Song: "Hallelujah": Rufus Wainwright (from Shrek soundtrack) ________________________________ From john at walton.to Sun Jun 3 22:03:23 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 18:03:23 -0400 Subject: ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations In-Reply-To: <9fe44r+gcqt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20045 Haggridd said: > Penny, I know that you have a thankless and an almost impossible > task, but I think that you did not act impartially in this matter. > JKR did not write a slash fic, and anyone who sees such in the books > is indulging in wishful thinking, at best. Why is Joe's response any > more inflammatory than the twisting of the HP canon into something it > was never intended to be? As a Moderator, I must jump in here in defence of Penny's decision (which all we Moderators agree with and support completely). Haggridd, in answer to your question, Joe's response is inflammatory because, without ANY reference to the HP books, he condemned (condamned, in fact) homosexuals, saying "Still, I'll be damned if I'd ever put something in front of my kid that validates that kind of lifestyle and tries to portray it as normal. The little joke that was played on this group was nothing short of sick", and calling the gay lifestyle "less-than-wholesome". This is clearly unacceptable in a group of such a diverse membership in the twenty-first century. Women have the vote, black people are no longer property, and gay people aren't freaks. Learn to live with it. Haggridd, you compare Joe's remarks with people "twisting" the HP canon. I wouldn't use the word "twisted" because of all the baggage attached to it, but the difference is that reading things that may not be there into the HP canon is *about HP*. Condemning gay people (or black people, people with blue eyes, Jewish people, Polish people, or any people) is NOT and will not be acceptable in this forum. Discussion about homosexuality's morality is not appropriate unless JKR brings it up in the canon. Discussion about characters' sexuality, however, is fine as long as it's canon-based and not inflammatory or offensive (so no "Gay People Are Evil" or "All Christian Moralists Are Evil"). This has been the group's position for as long as I have been a Moderator and will likely remain so, based on the feedback we've been getting from group members. I hope this helps to explain the Mods' position. As always, our objective is to provide a friendly, positive forum for mature discussion of the Harry Potter books and phenomenon, where ALL people, regardless of any defining characteristic they might have, feel welcome. Bigotry, however, is not welcome here. If anyone has constructive suggestions which would help us to Moderate better for you, please don't hesitate to drop us a line at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com! --John, Moderator Team ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to Current... Movie: Shrek. 11/10! CD: Shrek Soundtrack ::grin:: Song: "Hallelujah": Rufus Wainwright (from Shrek soundtrack) ________________________________ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Jun 3 22:08:03 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 22:08:03 -0000 Subject: "Millennials Rising" - The HP Generation In-Reply-To: <9fcb0r+jb1j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fecg3+ninj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20046 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote: > > > Despite their complementary tone, Strauss and Howe, like many > > fundamentalist and feminist critics, unfortunately give little sign > > that they have actually read Harry Potter > > > Did you mean complimentary tone? > > And by the way, this feminist critic (who is seriously unhappy at > being coupled with fundamentalists) has read the HP books many times. > > They are primarily about men and boys, after all. > > This does not make them less wonderful or engaging. > I meant "critic" in the literal sense of one who is actually critical of the books, as the aptly named Dr. Heilman: Archive - from the archive Back to Search Results Archive - Home news Nic Barnard 04/05/2001 Harry caught in muggle over sexism HARRY Potter is caught in the middle of a battle, and it has nothing to do with goblets of fire or philosophers' stones. The muggles are fighting over gender - the hot debate is over whether JK Rowling's children's books are sexist, and does it matter? American academic Elizabeth Heilman says the books perpetrate "demeaning" stereotypes. Rowling's girls are "giggly, emotional, gossipy and anti-intellectual", while males are "wiser, braver, more powerful and more fun". Harry's brainy best friend, clever-clogs Hermione, decidedly plays second fiddle. She does help the hero solve mysteries. But then Hermione takes a back seat or, worse, needs rescuing, complains Dr Heilman of Purdue University, Indiana. A similar debate has been raging on academic websites. The books have already come under fire for their ultra-traditional boarding school setting. "Capitalist and patriarchal" is Dr Heilman's verdict in a paper to the recent American Educational Research Association conference. But girl readers don't seem to see the books as sexist. And Pat Pinsent, senior research fellow at the National Centre for Research in Children's Literature at Roehampton, Surrey, says: "I don't come away with the image of Hermione as helpless. She has a great deal of ability to get herself out of situations and bounce back. "You can get too despondent about female readers imbibing female characteristics. A lot of them identify with the hero and don't stop to consider that they're a female reader," she said. Or as Hermione says in Potter Book One: "Books and cleverness! There are more important things." Is Potter sexist? Have your say: www.tes.co.uk From gaynor at cheerful.com Sun Jun 3 22:17:30 2001 From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 22:17:30 -0000 Subject: Confirmation of Crookshanks as part Kneazle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fed1q+pjbn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20047 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., > SHENmagic at a... said: > > Where, Rita? I'd love to read a JKR interview, especially if recent. In fact, > > I miss having announcements of interviews and HP world news on HPGU. I > > understand about volume problems, but still wish this group allowed such > > news the Announcements spinoff doesn't seem to do it. > > Aylihael John Walton wrote: > I thought it was in the Blue Peter interview in the top level of the Files > section, but I've just checked and it's not. It's almost certainly in one of > the interviews since March (when FB was released). > You can watch it in RealPlayer at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/skins/jkclip.html I think there is a transcript floating around in one of the messages somewhere if it's not in the files...(goes to check)...hmm, perhaps not. I'm sure I've seen a transcript somewhere, though! Gaynor From sneakoscope2001 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 22:31:16 2001 From: sneakoscope2001 at yahoo.com (tara scarbro) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy Weasley: Ministry Scape-Goat In-Reply-To: <9fe7od+m8j1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010603223116.80902.qmail@web14703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20048 Hey everyone! I am a new member and this is my first response to a message so here goes! Milz, I feel that Percy was relied on by Crouch Sr. because he was a new employee and would not ask any questions about responsibilities given to him by Crouch Sr. due to his admiration of Crouch Sr. and simply doing as he is told . Others such as Barty or Mr. Weasley would have likely began questioning Crouch Sr.'s absences. sneakoscope2001 --- Milz wrote: > The last Percy-Ron-Ginny discussion forced me to > re-read (yet again!) > and re-consider my thoughts about them. Percy does > have annoying > characteristics like arrogance, pretentiousness and > self-importance. > His unquestioning loyality to Crouch Sr wasn't a > very helpful > characteristic either. But the end of GoF, left > Percy's fate > unanswered. All we know is that he was being > questioned by the > Ministry concerning Crouch's disappearance. > Depending on how much > influence Fudge has, I can see Percy being framed > for Crouch's > disappearance and even possible Azkaban time for > him. > > From what's in the books, I figure Voldemort and > Peter showed up at > the Crouch home in the week before Harry starts > school. (Percy makes > a remark that Mr. Crouch is relying more.) I can see > where it would > seem suspicious that Crouch barely knows Percy's > name one week, then > begins to rely more and more on him. Percy is a > relatively new > employee. Usually, you give the brunt of the > responsibility to the > more senior people due to familiarity with the > work/procedures. Percy > probably is known by his colleagues at the Ministry > to be very > ambitious. When Crouch finally disappears due to an > illness, Percy is > the only one with whom he stays in contact through > letters of > instruction. So it can appear that Percy was so > power-hungry and > ambitious that he gained Crouch's confidence, began > to control him > and eliminated him. > > Percy knew that Crouch Sr. lived alone since the > dismissal of Winky. > Being Crouch's personal assistant, Percy had the > opportunity to curse > Crouch and to kill him. > > Also there's the bone in Hagrid's yard. Crouch Jr > told Dumbledore > that he turned Crouch Sr. into a bone and buried him > in the Hagrid's > yard. So technically, they have a body: they just > need to transform > it back into Crouch Sr. (This is kind of gross, so > skip it if you > want) With forensic pathology, you can tell > approximately the time of > death by the amount of decomposition. If Crouch > Sr.'s body does not > decompose because it was turned into a bone, then it > would be nearly > impossible to determine the time of death. We know > that by the time > of the Yule Ball, Crouch was "ill" and Percy was > filling in for him. > So basically, Percy could have had the opportunity > to dump the bone > on Hogwarts ground or he could have gone there one > evening and > secretly slipped it into Hagrid's yard. > > The only person who could unequivocally exonerate > Percy is Barty > Crouch Jr., who was demented and can't give any > evidence. > Dumbledore's, Harry's, and anyone else's could be > easily discounted > as lunacy or even as a conspiracy against Fudge. > Molly alludes to the > fact that Fudge doesn't like Muggles and Arthur's > fondness for > Muggles has held him back in the Fudge > Administration. > Dumbledore doesn't share Fudge's dislike for Muggles > and he basically > told Fudge to get stuffed. McGonagall works for > Dumbledore so her > testimony would be questionable. Snape, well, poor > Snape wouldn't be > credible because he was a Death Eater. Harry's own > description of > Crouch Sr that night could be damning to Percy too. > Crouch never > mentions anyone by name. All Harry knows is that > Crouch was trying to > contact Dumbledore and that he lapsed in and out of > coherence. > > Compounded by the fact that Fudge seemed very > hesistant to believe > Dumbledore and Harry about Voldemort's return. I > think he will do > just about anything to pacify the wizarding world > concerning Crouch > Sr's disappearance. > > Ginny, I don't think will betray Harry. She's > already been a pawn and > I think that she's learned from that experience. Ron > has his problems > too. But I think Cedric's death (and Percy's > potential problems)will > force him to get over the petty squabbling. > > Milz > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 22:37:07 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid in Slytherin??? In-Reply-To: <9fdemj+hit9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010603223707.5853.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20049 NO I never thought that Hagrid belonged in Slytherin..i find the idea of it humorous. However, I thought there was a point where I could see Ron almost in Slytherin..except that he doesn't mind befriending mudbloods and his family is definitely different than Slytherin. But his ambitions and his desire for money...and of course his legendary temper. It is those traits that make me wonder about him in Slytherin. However, I think that JKR paid a lot of attention to what characters belong where. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jearles at berkshire.rr.com Sun Jun 3 22:52:33 2001 From: jearles at berkshire.rr.com (Joe Earles) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:52:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations References: Message-ID: <005d01c0ec7f$e08ccee0$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20050 Sorry Penny and Bryce. I'm breaking my promise.... I think the group has a right to hear my response to this and have the opportunity to respond in due form. Of course, I'll make my appeal to everyone to please e-mail ME their responses to jearles-at-berkshire-rr-dot-com. So far, the responses I've gotten have been pretty positive, save those of the moderators. See what I mean, Penny? The only inflamatory remarks that have hit the group or my inbox thus far have been from the moderators. We wouldn't be having this conversation now if you'd have just let it go. Again, I'll familiarize you with the term "Self-Fulfilling Prophecy"... it's quite the interesting phenomenon... ----- Original Message ----- From: John Walton To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 6:03 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations > Haggridd said: > > > Penny, I know that you have a thankless and an almost impossible > > task, but I think that you did not act impartially in this matter. > > JKR did not write a slash fic, and anyone who sees such in the books > > is indulging in wishful thinking, at best. Why is Joe's response any > > more inflammatory than the twisting of the HP canon into something it > > was never intended to be? > > As a Moderator, I must jump in here in defence of Penny's decision (which > all we Moderators agree with and support completely). > > Haggridd, in answer to your question, Joe's response is inflammatory > because, without ANY reference to the HP books, How can you people be so hoplessly obtuse? I referenced the books four times in that post. It was totally on-topic given the subject of the thread. Argue it all you want, you'll still be as incorrect as the day is long. > he condemned (condamned, in > fact) homosexuals, saying "Still, I'll be damned if I'd ever > put something in front of my kid that validates that kind of lifestyle and > tries to portray it as normal. The little joke that was played on this > group was nothing short of sick", and calling the gay lifestyle > "less-than-wholesome". Why is it okay for Susan to make statements like the one she did and she gets to go about her merry way and yet when I voice an opinion IN RESPONSE TO HER I'm bashed by moderators more than five times inside of a few hours? I really hope one of you will field that question. So far none of you has had the guts. Why is her opinion valid and mine offensive? You won't answer because you can't justify it. Pure and simple. Respect goes both ways - if you're going to respect someone's right to smear the reputation of 2 major characters for their own pleasure and for no better reason than her desire to create a new platform for their agenda and to whip up controversy, you ought to...no you MUST respect the right of any detractor to voice his/her views. And with all due respect I don't give a solid gold cowpie whether or not you like it. If she can have her say, I can have mine. Period. > This is clearly unacceptable in a group of such a diverse membership in the > twenty-first century. Women have the vote, black people are no longer > property, and gay people aren't freaks. Learn to live with it. This is almost too childish to even give the time of day, but all right.... I have my opinions about the homosexual lifestyle so I *MUST* be a misogynist and racist too, right? I must have missed my "End Womens' Suffrage" and "White Power" posts in my juggernaught of homophobic rantings. Could you point out where they appeared? > Haggridd, you compare Joe's remarks with people "twisting" the HP canon. I > wouldn't use the word "twisted" because of all the baggage attached to it, > but the difference is that reading things that may not be there into the HP > canon is *about HP*. Condemning gay people (or black people, people with > blue eyes, Jewish people, Polish people, or any people) is NOT and will not > be acceptable in this forum. Discussion about homosexuality's morality is > not appropriate unless JKR brings it up in the canon. Discussion about > characters' sexuality, however, is fine as long as it's canon-based and not > inflammatory or offensive I found the speculation of Black and Lupin being lovers inflammatory and offensive. It's just that my opinion is far less politically correct than the allowance of a homosexual to voice his/her views without backlash. And as far as I can remember, speculation and canon are worlds apart. What does a rumor have to do with the canon in any realm outside of Political Correctness? > (so no "Gay People Are Evil" or "All Christian > Moralists Are Evil"). This has been the group's position for as long as I > have been a Moderator and will likely remain so, based on the feedback we've > been getting from group members. When you slap my beliefs in the face by flaunting yours in a defiant and insensitive manner, you are villifying my beliefs and opinons whether you care to admit it or not. > I hope this helps to explain the Mods' position. Your position is crystal clear... and it stinks. Feel free to kick me off the group if you so choose. After all, it's a whole lot more convenient to silence your enemies than it is to engage them now isn't it? From rja.carnegie at excite.com Sun Jun 3 22:47:36 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 22:47:36 -0000 Subject: Anyone in or near Dundee? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9feeq8+jdak@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20051 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > from http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/ thanks to a link from > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org - > > WRITER JK Rowling has joined forces with world-famous architect > Frank Gehry to bring a cancer care centre to Tayside. **The Harry > Potter author will be in Dundee this weekend to raise funds for > Maggie's Centre, a building which Gehry has designed for free. > Rowling will appear before 1,300 Harry Potter fans from around > Scotland to answer questions and read from her latest work, > Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.** > > The event in the Caird Hall hopes to raise ?10,000 for the Maggie > Cancer Caring Centre Appeal. Whoops, saw this too late - but I was kind of busy yesterday - although, as it happened, most of the younger HP fans in my extended family were visiting yesterday evening, anyway. I hadn't heard of Maggie's Cancer Caring Centres, but according to http://www.maggies.ed.ac.uk/ it's what you might call a para-clinical support unit, or, as they put it, "a place for people who have cancer, their families and friends." Apparently quite a small working group, there is one centre opened in Edinburgh (how JKR got enlisted perhaps?), this one planned in Dundee, and they're raising funds for one here in Glasgow - I must remember to watch out in case JKR turns up for that too, round up the troop... Britain does have free health care, but www.maggies.ed.ac.uk explains some of our system's shortcomings. Objectively, health care in Africa may be a better cause to support - including cancer and of course AIDS - but I live here. Since this is all very worthy but totally off-topic, I'd better say something at least nearly relevant. How about St. Mungo? Well, apparently St. Mungo came to live as our neighbourhood patron saint in Glasgow (we gave him the name Mungo, he used to be called Kentigern) because the people he lived with in Culross didn't approve of his miraculous powers. That's according to www.glasgow.gov.uk anyway (if I'm reading it right), and doesn't it remind you of someone? Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 3 22:52:23 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 22:52:23 -0000 Subject: God, I Love Rumors... (WAS: Re: interview) In-Reply-To: <001701c0ec46$6849b260$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <9fef37+m34@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20052 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joe Earles" wrote: > This *IS* Harry Potter for GROWNUPS, isn't it? Honestly.... > > >And the possibility of JKR revealing it without causing an immediate > >explosion of "Harry Potter's Godfather Gay?" headlines and a > >raft of talk-show debates is even less plausible. > > > >Amy Z > > > See, this is where someone's "sense of humor" can really make a mess of > things. Forgive me, but WADR was this little joke *really* worth the > controversy? Was it really worth several threads worth of responses and > speculations? Is the person who started the rumor trying to ruin the Harry > Potter experience for the rest of us? Honestly, the things some people do > for fun or think are funny... I'm at a loss. You can call me anything you > want...say I'm a homophobe, call me intolerant or narrow-minded but for the > half-second I thought it might be true all my visions of sitting with my son > reading the books with him - being able to say, "Here, son, is THE great > fairy tale for your generation," reading along with him with a sense of > pride, watching him marvel at Harry's world the way his mother and I do - > just vanished into a funk. I then regained my sense of logic and decided > that the source of the information was WAY too suspect to take seriously. > Further investigation proved me corect. Still, I'll be damned if I'd ever > put something in front of my kid that validates that kind of lifestyle and > tries to portray it as normal. The little joke that was played on this > group was nothing short of sick. I hope beyond hopes that it will end right > here, that further less-than-wholesome speculations be kept to the > speculators' own selves, thereby quelling any further tarnishment of this > story, its characters, its reputation or its charm. > > Flames may be directed to jearles-at-berkshire-dot-rr-dot-com, for the sake > of keeping it off the list. I'm sure there will be a few.... Well, apart from the fact that it was obvious to most that this was a joke... why do you think it was sick? What is so unwholesome about homosexual relationships? Instead of making comments which do come across as being stongly homophobic, couldn't you either keep your opinions to yourself or contact one of the moderators if you feel a particular post is out of line? Catherine From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 23:09:02 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 23:09:02 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9feg2e+pfrn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20053 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > Haggridd said: > > > Penny, I know that you have a thankless and an almost impossible > > task, but I think that you did not act impartially in this matter. > > JKR did not write a slash fic, and anyone who sees such in the books > > is indulging in wishful thinking, at best. Why is Joe's response any > > more inflammatory than the twisting of the HP canon into something it > > was never intended to be? > > As a Moderator, I must jump in here in defence of Penny's decision (which > all we Moderators agree with and support completely). > > Haggridd, in answer to your question, Joe's response is inflammatory > because, without ANY reference to the HP books, he condemned (condamned, in > fact) homosexuals, saying "Still, I'll be damned if I'd ever > put something in front of my kid that validates that kind of lifestyle and > tries to portray it as normal. The little joke that was played on this > group was nothing short of sick", and calling the gay lifestyle > "less-than-wholesome". > > This is clearly unacceptable in a group of such a diverse membership in the > twenty-first century. Women have the vote, black people are no longer > property, and gay people aren't freaks. Learn to live with it. > > Haggridd, you compare Joe's remarks with people "twisting" the HP canon. I > wouldn't use the word "twisted" because of all the baggage attached to it, > but the difference is that reading things that may not be there into the HP > canon is *about HP*. Condemning gay people (or black people, people with > blue eyes, Jewish people, Polish people, or any people) is NOT and will not > be acceptable in this forum. Discussion about homosexuality's morality is > not appropriate unless JKR brings it up in the canon. Discussion about > characters' sexuality, however, is fine as long as it's canon-based and not > inflammatory or offensive (so no "Gay People Are Evil" or "All Christian > Moralists Are Evil"). This has been the group's position for as long as I > have been a Moderator and will likely remain so, based on the feedback we've > been getting from group members. > > I hope this helps to explain the Mods' position. As always, our objective is > to provide a friendly, positive forum for mature discussion of the Harry > Potter books and phenomenon, where ALL people, regardless of any defining > characteristic they might have, feel welcome. Bigotry, however, is not > welcome here. If anyone has constructive suggestions which would help us to > Moderate better for you, please don't hesitate to drop us a line at > hpforgrownups-owner at y...! > > --John, Moderator Team > ________________________________ > I know that I said I wouldn't add flame to the fire, but, since I was publicly addressed, I will reply as a point of personal privilege. John, it may surprise you, and dismay Joe, that I agree with you completely as to the naturalness or unnaturalness of sexual orientations. That is not the point. There is no evidence that JKR has presaged a Sirius/Remus relationship, and that is not simply a matter of opinion (sorry, Penny). I would love to see examples disproving that assertion, if there be any, rather than the bald assertion. I used the word "twisted" simply in the sense of distorted, without any emotional charge or negative connotation. But to drag this Homophile/Homophobe issue into JKR marvelous works is not just innocent speculation, it is a gauntlet thrown down, a challenge, just as much as is Joe's response. To condemn the one and to characterize the other as legitimate is as destructive of the free exercise of opinion as you say you hope to protect. Joe's arguments about gays should be refuted , IMHO (there you are, Penny); but step back and see the big picture. BTW, if you wanted to take a chep shot at Joe, don't you think that simply putting (sic) after his mistake would be more elegant? Haggridd From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 3 23:11:21 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 18:11:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Confirmation of Crookshanks as part Kneazle? References: <9fed1q+pjbn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B1AC418.339275B@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20054 Gaynor Thomas wrote: > You can watch it in RealPlayer at: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/skins/jkclip.html > > I think there is a transcript floating around in one of the messages > somewhere if it's not in the files...(goes to check)...hmm, perhaps > not. I'm sure I've seen a transcript somewhere, though! I typed up the partial transcript, playing it over and over to get it right. It sparked the great "did she say 'half' or 'part'"? debate for a bit. But I don't know the message number. Search under Amanda Lewanski; I don't remember the subject header. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rja.carnegie at excite.com Sun Jun 3 23:24:39 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 23:24:39 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations In-Reply-To: <005d01c0ec7f$e08ccee0$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <9fegvn+buut@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20055 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joe Earles" wrote: > From: John Walton > > Haggridd said: > > > > > Penny, I know that you have a thankless and an almost impossible > > > task, but I think that you did not act impartially in this matter. > > > JKR did not write a slash fic, and anyone who sees such in the books > > > is indulging in wishful thinking, at best. Why is Joe's response any > > > more inflammatory than the twisting of the HP canon into something it > > > was never intended to be? > > > > As a Moderator, I must jump in here in defence of Penny's decision (which > > all we Moderators agree with and support completely). > > > > Haggridd, in answer to your question, Joe's response is inflammatory > > because, without ANY reference to the HP books, > > How can you people be so hoplessly obtuse? > > I referenced the books four times in that post. It was totally on-topic > given the subject of the thread. Argue it all you want, you'll still be as > incorrect as the day is long. I should leave this to the moderators, but heck - it isn't in the HPforGrownups rules, it's in the Yahoo.com rules - http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ , "You agree to not use the Service to email...any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable." (Admittedly, the same rules also proscribe impersonation, which will be bad news to Hermione.Granger and others.) I think we're on "abusive" and "otherwise objectionable" here. You've read the books. You _know_ there isn't any homosexuality in the books. You knew that when you posted. What got you going was that you'd been suckered (as I was) into believing that characters in the books had had homosexual experiences _in the author's mind_, but in a way that you, a responsible adult, had been unable to detect from the text. If HP books are actually crypto-homosexual texts, how you feel about that, and about homosexuality, may be relevant here. But since we've established that there's no reason to suppose that JKR has this conscious or unconscious agenda - if you don't find any evidence in the books - then it's right off the point. Accordingly, I won't give my own view. On the other hand, Stephen Fry is a great flaming ponce, and what I found when I searched the Web for Jim Dale - :-) Robert Carnegie Meretricious! (for which I must thank Mr. Fry) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 3 23:40:34 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 23:40:34 -0000 Subject: Confirmation of Crookshanks as part Kneazle? In-Reply-To: <99.15c74de8.284c0d0e@aol.com> Message-ID: <9fehti+lhha@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20056 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., SHENmagic at a... wrote: > Where, Rita? I'd love to read a JKR interview, especially if > recent. In fact, I miss having announcements of interviews and HP > world news on HPGU. Two lists that still get that kind of announcment: http://www.yahoogroups.com/messages/harrypotteranonymous/ (joe guy posts them) and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements/messages Steve Vander Ark lists several JKR interviews in his Sources: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/site_sources.html His page on Crookshanks http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/crookshanks.html says "Crookshanks is part Kneazle (Nr), which accounts for his unusual intelligence and his ability to identify suspicious characters, most notably Pettigrew when disguised as Scabbers the Rat. (PA) But he also recognizes and disapproves of cheating, judging by the way he stared at Harry and Ron when they were making up answers on their Divination homework (GF14). " From john at walton.to Mon Jun 4 00:14:05 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:14:05 -0400 Subject: Discussions vs. Inflammations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20057 Joe said: > Why is it okay for Susan to make statements like the one she did and she > gets to go about her merry way and yet when I voice an opinion IN RESPONSE > TO HER I'm bashed by moderators more than five times inside of a few hours? > I really hope one of you will field that question. So far none of you has > had the guts. Why is her opinion valid and mine offensive? You won't answer > because you can't justify it. Sure I can justify it, and I will. As those listees I've met will testify, I certainly have the gut(s)! I do, however, go into this with some trepidation as I'm not entirely sure that you will accept my justification...but I'll try anyway. Susan's opinion: > She said that there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would > ever become involved, that Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been > lovers at Hogwarts, and that Crookshanks would play a major role in > the Order of the Phoenix. She makes a *jocular* (yes, a funny ha-ha, une blague) post that you appear to have blown all out of proportion. She makes no comment that could be considered as abusive, defamatory or inflammatory by a reasonable person. Joe's opinion: > Still, I'll be damned if I'd ever put something in front of my kid that > validates that kind of lifestyle and tries to portray it as normal. The > little joke that was played on this group was nothing short of sick. You reply in a *serious* post, using language that is, in our opinion and in the opinion of the members who have contacted us, offensive, abusive, inflammatory and intolerant. > Respect goes both ways - if you're going to respect someone's right to smear > the reputation of 2 major characters for their own pleasure and for no better > reason than her desire to create a new platform for their agenda and to whip > up controversy, you ought to...no you MUST respect the right of any detractor > to voice his/her views. Umm...Joe, you do seem to be forgetting that these are fictional characters. *They* couldn't give a fig whether or not they're smeared. Furthermore, I don't believe that Susan's reasoning was to create a platform for her agenda -- rather, I think that she was trying to make us laugh. Don't assume that all gay people are always pushing some agenda. I don't assume that all Christians, or all black people, or all Democrats, or all South Carolinians perpetually push their agendas on me. > I have my opinions about the homosexual lifestyle so I *MUST* be a > misogynist and racist too, right? I must have missed my "End Womens' > Suffrage" and "White Power" posts in my juggernaught of homophobic rantings. > Could you point out where they appeared? I was simply pointing out instances of accepted prejudice in the past which have now become anathema to our society. It is my fervent believe that homophobia will go the same way as slavery. I was in no way accusing you of misogyny or racism. > I found the speculation of Black and Lupin being lovers inflammatory and > offensive. We realised that quite early on, when you called gay people "sick". The correct course of action would have been to contact the Moderators with a note about the situation. Here's an example: "Hi there. I'm writing to complain about Post #00000, where Janine Listmember made a comment about Sirius and Remus being gay. I was offended by this, and would prefer not to read such material. Please ask her to cease. Thank you. -Joe Listmember" What we would likely have done is point out to you that, as this is an adult-geared group, discussion of particular relationships (no matter the orientation) between characters is part of our reason for being. We would have reminded you that any discussion of relationships ("Shipping") should be carried out in a mature manner, without resorting to terms of abuse or defamatory language, e.g. "sick". > It's just that my opinion is far less politically correct than > the allowance of a homosexual to voice his/her views without backlash. Again, we were not taking issue with your opinion; rather, the way in which you stated it was offensive and abusive. Political correctness has nothing to do with it -- we have discussed many topics which would be sensitive in politically correct circles. > What does a rumor have to do with the canon in any realm outside of Political > Correctness? Firstly, it was a joke, not a rumor. Secondly, we term anything that JKR herself has said or written (interviews, books, etc) as canon. See our VFAQ in the Files Section for more info there. I can only wish that you'd read it before posting. > When you slap my beliefs in the face by flaunting yours in a defiant and > insensitive manner, you are villifying my beliefs and opinons whether you > care to admit it or not. If you feel that Susan's comments slapped your beliefs in the face, or that they were insensitive or vilifying your beliefs, that's regrettable. Perhaps the tone of our list is incompatible with you? We have no intention of taking any action whatsoever against Susan for her post. We understand your argument, but we cannot see your evidence. > Your position is crystal clear... and it stinks. Feel free to kick me off > the group if you so choose. After all, it's a whole lot more convenient to > silence your enemies than it is to engage them now isn't it? We have no intention of silencing you, nor do we consider you an enemy. I'm pleased to say that I can't remember one person that we've forcibly unsubscribed. However, I would again recommend that you look somewhere else for your discussion needs if you are offended by homosexuality. Regards, --John, for the Moderator Team From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 4 00:19:33 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 00:19:33 -0000 Subject: Joe Earles: ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations In-Reply-To: <005d01c0ec7f$e08ccee0$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <9fek6l+iemn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20058 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joe Earles" wrote: > I think the group has a right to hear my response to this I wish I had not heard your response. > and have the opportunity to respond in due form. Of course, I'll > make my appeal to everyone to please e-mail ME their responses to > jearles-at-berkshire-rr-dot-com. So far, the responses I've > gotten have been pretty positive, save those of the moderators. I am quite NAUSEATED by the idea that you think I agree with you just because I kept silent. I didn't message you off-list because I don't believe in hate mail and I didn't message you on-list because I hoped that the controversy would die down (and you would go away) if no one responded. I also hate to give you the satisfaction of knowing that you hurt some people's feelings and enraged other people just as you were trying to do. I am quite certain that if there is a Hell, you and your evil bigotted views are one of the people who will burn in it for eternity. However, there is nothing useful to be accomplished by me saying so, just as there is nothing useful to be accomplished by trying to argue the issue with you on a basis of facts, logic, or virtue. Still, my stomach won't let me keep it down. From jearles at berkshire.rr.com Mon Jun 4 00:27:44 2001 From: jearles at berkshire.rr.com (Joe Earles) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 20:27:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] God, I Love Rumors... (WAS: Re: interview) References: <9fef37+m34@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000f01c0ec8d$2ca923c0$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20059 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 6:52 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] God, I Love Rumors... (WAS: Re: interview) > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Joe Earles" wrote: > > This *IS* Harry Potter for GROWNUPS, isn't it? Honestly.... > > > > >And the possibility of JKR revealing it without causing an > immediate > > >explosion of "Harry Potter's Godfather Gay?" headlines and a > > >raft of talk-show debates is even less plausible. > > > > > >Amy Z > > > > > > See, this is where someone's "sense of humor" can really make a > mess of > > things. Forgive me, but WADR was this little joke *really* worth the > > controversy? Was it really worth several threads worth of > responses and > > speculations? Is the person who started the rumor trying to ruin > the Harry > > Potter experience for the rest of us? Honestly, the things some > people do > > for fun or think are funny... I'm at a loss. You can call me > anything you > > want...say I'm a homophobe, call me intolerant or narrow-minded but > for the > > half-second I thought it might be true all my visions of sitting > with my son > > reading the books with him - being able to say, "Here, son, is THE > great > > fairy tale for your generation," reading along with him with a > sense of > > pride, watching him marvel at Harry's world the way his mother and > I do - > > just vanished into a funk. I then regained my sense of logic and > decided > > that the source of the information was WAY too suspect to take > seriously. > > Further investigation proved me corect. Still, I'll be damned if > I'd ever > > put something in front of my kid that validates that kind of > lifestyle and > > tries to portray it as normal. The little joke that was played on > this > > group was nothing short of sick. I hope beyond hopes that it will > end right > > here, that further less-than-wholesome speculations be kept to the > > speculators' own selves, thereby quelling any further tarnishment > of this > > story, its characters, its reputation or its charm. > > > > Flames may be directed to jearles-at-berkshire-dot-rr-dot-com, for > the sake > > of keeping it off the list. I'm sure there will be a few.... > > Well, apart from the fact that it was obvious to most that this was a > joke... why do you think it was sick? What is so unwholesome about > homosexual relationships? Don't get me started. if you really want an answer, and I don't think you really do, e-mail me. I'd love to give you my uncensored and unabashed opinion. Instead of making comments which do come > across as being stongly homophobic, There's that word again..."homophobic." I'm in no way frightened of homosexuals, therefore I cannot be perceived as homophobic. The political correctness crowd will have to come up with something that is a bit less of a misnomer if you ever expect me to admit to being what you perceive me to be. > couldn't you either keep your > opinions to yourself Couldn't Susan? > or contact one of the moderators if you feel a > particular post is out of line? > > Catherine What difference would it make? Clearly the poster-in-question has been given free reign to say whatever she wants so whining to a moderator wouldn't seem to be all that productive. Besides, I grew out of my tattling stage about the same time I graduated from diapers to underwear and quit sucking my thumb. That was longer ago than I like to think about..... From simon at hp.inbox.as Mon Jun 4 00:21:39 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 01:21:39 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations In-Reply-To: <005d01c0ec7f$e08ccee0$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20060 Joe: <<>> Some people may agree with your point, but talking to a few at the moment I can find many who disagree and are quite upset at the opinion you voiced in message 20010. You will probably only get positive responses. This would not surprise me as few of the members of the list that disagree with you are likely to want to get into a full e-mail discussion on this topic, or will they see any point to do so. We also would not be having this discussion if you had not posted your original message or had chosen not to respond, so you have little ground for comment there (and similarly to me as well as I have chosen to reply as well). Haggridd said: <<>> John: <<>> Joe: <<>> No, you mention the books a few times in your message. A reference is something more detailed than saying Harry Potter in a message. As I consider the day to be too short we can then also infer that the message must have been off topic. Joe: <<>> I can make an interesting observation here. You mention that the moderators have contacted you several times in regard to this matter. This has been done off list, via private e-mail. You have no idea as to whether similar messages have been also sent to Susan asking her to be careful when making similar jokes in the future. You will not be told if the moderators have done this because it will have happened off list. Simon -- Faith? "... walk straight at it ... Don't stop and don't be scared ... that's very important. Best do it at a bit of a run if you're nervous." Molly Weasley - Harry Potter and the Philopsher's Stone by Jo Rowling --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From john at walton.to Mon Jun 4 00:20:31 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:20:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations In-Reply-To: <9feg2e+pfrn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20061 Haggridd said: > There is no evidence that JKR > has presaged a Sirius/Remus relationship, and that is not simply a > matter of opinion (sorry, Penny). I would love to see examples > disproving that assertion, if there be any, rather than the bald > assertion. There is none. We all accept that there is none. However, it is kinda fun to speculate. Will Harry have Hermione, or will she go for Ron? Will Mme Maxime and Rosmerta have a Springer-style fight over Hagrid? Will Hedwig and Pigwidgeon eventually pair up? "Shipping" is generally lighthearted, which is why I'm a bit dismayed that Joe chose only to take issue with the *gay* aspects of shipping, and not the straight aspects. > To condemn the one and to characterize the other as legitimate is as > destructive of the free exercise of opinion as you say you hope to protect. > Joe's arguments about gays should be refuted , IMHO (there you are, Penny); > but step back and see the big picture. As Penny and I have said, the real issue is that Joe has only objected to gay relationships, and has stated his opinions in an intolerant, abusive manner. This is unacceptable to the Moderator Team and to nearly everyone who has contacted us. Susan's opinions were not intolerant or abusive; therefore, we have no problem with them (apart from me wishing I'd done that joke before >:D) > BTW, if you wanted to take a chep shot at Joe, don't you think that > simply putting (sic) after his mistake would be more elegant? As I said in my private mail to you, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. Could you clarify? Cheers, --John ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to Current... Movie: Shrek. 11/10! CD: Shrek Soundtrack ::grin:: Song: "Hallelujah": Rufus Wainwright (from Shrek soundtrack) ________________________________ From saitaina at wizzards.net Mon Jun 4 00:28:48 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:28:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] God, I Love Rumors... (WAS: Re: interview) References: <9fef37+m34@eGroups.com> <000f01c0ec8d$2ca923c0$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <007f01c0ec8d$539e48c0$e94e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20062 Guys, can we please GET OFF THIS TOPIC?! It's degrading into a preschool royal which is making me nausious. No I don't agree with much that was said but enough is enough. It's taking up space in my HPFGU folder that will just have to be deleted without being read and making me turn away from the group again. Enough has been said that the topic can be laid to rest with no clear winners or loser. Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how badly stated. No good will come from this and I ask again, let this topic drop and die away. I love you all with an affection unspeakable, but this is driving me to ignore the list entirely. I know that what I ask will probably be ignored but at least an attempt was made to bridge trouble waters and bring us back together before I finally decide to ignore all messages. I'm sorry if this sounds dire but it is the way things are going on my end. In all love and good faith, Amanda G. Humphrey AKA: Saitaina A. Moricia (slash writer and bi female who still prays to the Mother and Father everynight for all of you :) ) From john at walton.to Mon Jun 4 00:28:37 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:28:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Goddess, I Love Rumors... (WAS: Re: interview) In-Reply-To: <000f01c0ec8d$2ca923c0$fec41842@nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20063 Joe Earles said: >> couldn't you either keep your >> opinions to yourself > > Couldn't Susan? As I've alread stated, she did not use intolerant or abusive language. You did. >> or contact one of the moderators if you feel a >> particular post is out of line? >> >> Catherine > > What difference would it make? Clearly the poster-in-question has been given > free reign to say whatever she wants so whining to a moderator wouldn't seem > to be all that productive. Besides, I grew out of my tattling stage about > the same time I graduated from diapers to underwear and quit sucking my > thumb. That was longer ago than I like to think about..... Calling it "tattling" really *is* childish. Without people to let us know what they think of issues, our job as Moderators would be much less fun than it is. That's why we've taken actions like moving off-topic threads to a new list. (This thread, though off-topic, is staying here as it's explaining Moderator action which purports to the entire HPFGU family of lists.) We've also implemented new ways of sorting messages, using headings (FF/SHIP/NEWS) so that folks can skim through messages. Susan has in no way been given "free reign". The Moderator Team monitors the posts of everyone on the list, no matter how long they've been here. In fact, she is at a slight disadvantage to you because, until you posted using intolerant and abusive language, we had no idea where you stood on any issue. Susan is so (in)famous that one of the Moderators even wrote a poem about how she didn't follow the message-clipping guideline. For us to take you seriously, Joe, you really shouldn't jump to assumptions like that. Cordially, --John ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to Current... Movie: Shrek. 11/10! CD: Shrek Soundtrack ::grin:: Song: "Hallelujah": Rufus Wainwright (from Shrek soundtrack) ________________________________ From blpurdom at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 00:32:42 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry/Henry Potter and Harry/Henry V In-Reply-To: <9ek4hf+p3u9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010604003242.13093.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20064 Many parallels between Harry Potter and other pieces of fiction have been mention on this list (Narnia and Lord of the Rings most prominently) but lately I have been unable to get something else out of my head, and I was wondering whether anyone else had thought of it. When I was reading Cassandra Claire's Draco Sinister, at one point there is some time travel to the time of Rowena Ravenclaw, who, upon hearing Harry's name, believes that it is King Harry (Henry) who is being spoken of. Well, that immediately got me thinking that perhaps Harry isn't a Harold at all, but a Henry (which in England usually takes Harry for a nickname, such as the young Prince Harry--really Henry--who is Prince Williams little brother). And then THAT got me thinking of Shakespeare's plays Henry IV and V, about the first Prince of Wales to become king of England, setting the precedent for all future male heirs to bear the Prince of Wales title. Add to that the remarkable similarity between the Gryffindor flag and the flag of Wales, plus the childhood of Henry/Harry as written by Shakespeare, and I've found myself itching to reread these plays (or at least watch my video of the Kenneth Branagh Henry V, which has scenes he included from Henry IV to flesh out the king's early life). I can see all kinds of possibilities for the future of the series if JKR is thinking of Henry V in any way, such as the elves meeting the same fate as the squires at Agincourt, and I especially see Hagrid as a Falstaff, big time! (And Falstaff does NOT have a happy fate...) I also noticed that Henry V's nemesis, Montjoy, has a name that sounds remarkably like Malfoy. Has anyone else noticed these things? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Jun 4 00:40:30 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 19:40:30 -0500 Subject: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters Message-ID: <3B1AD8FE.98B1229B@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20065 Hi -- Responding to some posts/threads that have been sitting in my inbox for days now .... Craig wrote: > Yes, there is a convenience in the shorthand of lumping Voldemort,Pettigrew, Quirrell, Lockhart, the Malfoys, Fudge, Crouch Jr., and > even Snape under the rubric of evil, but it does a disservice to understanding the complexity of who they actually are. > Well-said! We've talked about this off & on again over time, but it is always of interest to me. I really don't see the characters (or not the pivotal ones) as archetypes or stereotypes. I think there's so much more richness & complexity to them than that. I think many of them are already multi-layered and complex and many more still have that potential. There are very few (if any) humans who qualify as pure white or pure black on the continuum. I have faith that JKR's characters are no less flawed. I think Mike (the Goat) makes some good points that so far the characters really can be sorted into good guys or bad guys. But, I hope that there will be more ambiguity and complexity in the final analysis than that. PERCY -- Wow! Great post from Milz with speculation about how Percy's relationship with Crouch Sr. might affect him in Book 5. It never really occurred to me that he might be framed for Crouch's disappearance/murder. Hmm.... now I'm worried for poor Percy on a whole new level. SURVIVAL OF THE CHARACTERS -- Ebony wrote: > Whatever JKR writes is fine with me. Of course, many of us have said that > we will disagree with her if she chooses certain outcomes (parallels were > drawn to LMA and other writers), but that is our prerogative as readers. > But it won't stop this H/Her from loving the remaining Harry Potter books, > which involve *so much more than shipping*. In fact, romance is the least > of *my* concerns--I'm more worried about the characters I like *surviving* > canon! > I agree completely! I won't *like* it if there's a Ron/Hermione wedding at the end of Book 7, but I'll still enjoy the series all the same. Or, I like to think I will still feel as passionately about it. I'm confident JKR can make me happy with just about any way she intends to go with all this. Like Ebony, I am more concerned with whether my favorite characters will still be alive at the end of the series than with who they'll be paired off with. Of course, I have a strong theory that Ron won't survive the series, so maybe that influences the fact that I'm not so worried about a Ron/Hermione wedding at the end of the series? Penny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 4 01:27:25 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 01:27:25 -0000 Subject: Harry/Henry Potter and Harry/Henry V In-Reply-To: <20010604003242.13093.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9feo5t+j7cr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20066 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > Well, that immediately got me thinking that perhaps > Harry isn't a Harold at all, but a Henry IIRC JKR said in an interview that Harry's name (what I call "birth certificate name") is Harry, not Harold or Henry or Harrison. I associated Harry's name with the battle cry "For England, Harry, and St. George", which my high school english teacher told me was still used in WWII even tho' it started with the Henrys you cite in the middle ages. Along with Dumbledore's first name, Albus, being reminiscent of ALbion, an old poetic name for the island of Britain based on the "white" cliffs of Dover as viewed from off-shore. There's something about the mythological background of that scepter'd isle, behind (until bomber aeroplanes) its ocean moats, going on in this HP mythos. As the island was part of the mythos of C.S. Lewis (Lloegres, was it?) and Tolkien. > And then THAT got me thinking of Shakespeare's plays I am not as familiar with Shakespeare as I should be. People who are posted about 'echoes' from Voldemort's wand being the scene of ghosts in Richard III and Voldemort being Edmund (? an evil one) in King Lear. JKR probably has TONS of Shakespeare references whether they were consciously intended or just something she absorbed into herself from reading and viewing Shakespeare plays. > Add to that the remarkable similarity between the > Gryffindor flag and the flag of Wales, plus the Umm? Gryffindor's flag is a gold lion on a red field. IIRC Wale's flag is Red reptile (Dragon??? I can never remember!!!!!) on a field which is horisontally divided, white on top and green on bottom. Please explain why the similarity is remarkable. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 01:48:38 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 01:48:38 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fepdm+ntir@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20067 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton wrote: > Haggridd said: > > > There is no evidence that JKR > > has presaged a Sirius/Remus relationship, and that is not simply a > > matter of opinion (sorry, Penny). I would love to see examples > > disproving that assertion, if there be any, rather than the bald > > assertion. > > There is none. We all accept that there is none. However, it is kinda fun to > speculate. Will Harry have Hermione, or will she go for Ron? Will Mme Maxime > and Rosmerta have a Springer-style fight over Hagrid? Will Hedwig and > Pigwidgeon eventually pair up? "Shipping" is generally lighthearted, which > is why I'm a bit dismayed that Joe chose only to take issue with the *gay* > aspects of shipping, and not the straight aspects. > > > To condemn the one and to characterize the other as legitimate is as > > destructive of the free exercise of opinion as you say you hope to protect. > > Joe's arguments about gays should be refuted , IMHO (there you are, Penny); > > but step back and see the big picture. > > As Penny and I have said, the real issue is that Joe has only objected to > gay relationships, and has stated his opinions in an intolerant, abusive > manner. This is unacceptable to the Moderator Team and to nearly everyone > who has contacted us. Susan's opinions were not intolerant or abusive; > therefore, we have no problem with them (apart from me wishing I'd done that > joke before >:D) > > > BTW, if you wanted to take a chep shot at Joe, don't you think that > > simply putting (sic) after his mistake would be more elegant? > > As I said in my private mail to you, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by > this. Could you clarify? > > Cheers, > > --John > >The "(sic)" remark referred to the condemned/condamned thing. Which "(sic)" I myself deserved for mispelling "cheap". As I said in my private reply (in essence), it is the escalating reactions to an issue that can never be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties intruding into our enjoyment of JKR's books that is so tragic. That was the reason I had problems with the initial slash rumor, because it started this process. As misguided as Joe was, his sin was in reaction, not in initiating this. I may be a minority of one for this point of view. Thank you all for listening. Can we get back to Harry, et al., now? aggridd Haggridd > ________________________________ From dasienko at email.com Mon Jun 4 01:56:09 2001 From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 01:56:09 -0000 Subject: Homorphus In-Reply-To: <9fd450+g4bv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9feprp+2qr3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20068 > Or, simply, perhaps werewolfism is like diabetes - there are > different versions of the disease, and broadly speaking what > makes the difference is whether you get it as a child or as > an adult. Lupin got bitten as a small child, so he got it worse. > > (I'm aware that this is gross oversimplification, as I've just > been checking out fact sheets online at http://www.diabetes.org.uk/ .) > > I'd ask whether there's also gestational werewolfism but someone's > sure to bite my head off :-) ! I was wondering about this very topic, I came to the conclusion that Remus was a WIZARD-CHILD when he was bit by the werewolf. so the Homomorphus spell wouldn't work on him at all (thus from PoA- his parents tried everything, but nothing worked). The spell didn't work on Remus because he is NOT HOMO-Sapiens, he is WIZARD SAPIENS. From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 01:58:44 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters In-Reply-To: <3B1AD8FE.98B1229B@swbell.net> Message-ID: <20010604015844.77977.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20069 I have my thoughts that very few of the characters will survive the series. I think Ron is actually one of the characters that I think will live...maybe not though. The whole Percy thing is quite interesting I think it would be very interesting to see him being framed and sent to Azbaken (not that I wish it to happen). Hmmm..maybe that is the place in the wizard world that Harry will visit *though I still have my hunches that it will be Godric's Hollow). --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dasienko at email.com Mon Jun 4 02:04:02 2001 From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 02:04:02 -0000 Subject: Shrek and the HP Trailer! In-Reply-To: <9fe2bk+pgtk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9feqai+2r06@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20070 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" wrote: > Last night, my son and I went to see Shrek. (my idea) > > I don't remember when I laughed so hard, and for so long, and so many > times! I was in tears! It really helps to have a fairy tale, disney > movie, been to Disney World background to watch Shrek. My son said > that I laughed a few more times than anyone there. > > Before the movie started, during the previews, the Warner Bros. logo > came up. All I could think was, "Yeah, right. I should be so lucky!" > Then ... "tinkle tinkle tinkle" ... John Williams, *oh* *so* > recognizable music (for those of us who have played the HP Trailer > 1,000 times!) started to play! I sat bolt upright! I was so excited > that I almost could not sit still!! I believe that I said, "Oh my > God!" about 17 times! It was fantastic! And when Alan Rickman came > on, I almost dumped my popcorn! Where is the pause and rewind button > when you need one? I could have watched it over and over and over ... > well, I am sure you all know what I mean. A great time was had by > all. We talked about the movie and the trailer all the way home, > laughing almost as hard as we did during the movie! > > Doreen, who can't wait for the HP movie now, and who wants to see > Shrek a couple more times too. A definite must buy video! I saw Shrek, Loved it. But no HP trailer. It must be a regional thing. From JamiDeise at aol.com Mon Jun 4 02:04:30 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:04:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters Message-ID: <3f.1628ad01.284c46ae@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20071 In a message dated 6/3/2001 9:59:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com writes: << I have my thoughts that very few of the characters will survive the series. I think Ron is actually one of the characters that I think will live...maybe not though. >> I don't think he will. I think Ron's sacrificing himself on the giant chessboard in PS/SS is foreshadowing of a much more permanent, but still voluntary, sacrifice he will make. >> The whole Percy thing is quite interesting I think it would be very interesting to see him being framed and sent to Azbaken (not that I wish it to happen).<< I can see Percy's love for the rules being used against him in ways he will not realize until it's too late. I believe that if anyone in Harry's circle turns against him, it'll be someone like Colin Creevy. Jami From Lindsay at stirton.net Mon Jun 4 02:01:13 2001 From: Lindsay at stirton.net (Lindsay Stirton) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 21:01:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20072 Dear All, They say that first impressions count. As a new member of this list I was looking forward to listening in on HP discussion (maybe even adding my two sickles worth now and then) but it would seem that this discussion group is not for me. The first ten posts or so that I received seem to document, on the one hand, speculation of a gay relationship between two of the major characters, and on the other indignation that group members would even consider this outrage. All this strikes me as utterly banal. Like all classic children's literature, Harry Potter is concerned with the 'big' themes: the sexual orientation of the characters is neither here nor there, and any space devoted to this theme would presumably be cut by any right thinking editor as extraneous to the central plot line. At the same time, the reaction that this has caused within the group seems to be out of all proportion to the original remark. I am not sure that homosexuality is 'sick', but I see know good reason why, even if it were, that homosexuality is not a proper subject for consideration within literature -- although I do suspect that the Harry Potter books are not a good medium for that particular theme. Do we really think that anything that we judge to be 'unwholesome' should not be discussed, as though it does not exist? Homosexuality does exist and when my children (I do not yet have any, but some day I might) are exposed to it (as surely they will be) I want them to be capable of confronting the issue squarely and maturely and not at all in the knee-jerk way that it has been treated in this discussion group. To my mind, deliberate violation of human rights for sheer pleasure (as in muggle torture in HPIV) clearly is sick, yet it is quite appropriate that JK Rowling incorporates muggle torture into her work. Whatever the rights and wrongs of homosexuality, I am sure that our understanding of that issue has in no way been advanced by the posts of members of this group. Lindsay From vderark at bccs.org Mon Jun 4 02:33:12 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 02:33:12 -0000 Subject: Confirmation of Crookshanks as part Kneazle? In-Reply-To: <9fehti+lhha@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fes18+su2j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20073 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" wrote: > Steve Vander Ark lists several JKR interviews in his Sources: > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/site_sources.html My link to that Newsround interview (abbreviated Nr in the Lexicon) also connects to the Realplayer version. If anyone finds a transcript of it available, please let me know. I prefer to link to text versions whenever possible. Other tidbits from the interview: Kneazle has a silent 'k' (well, you never know...) There will be a female DADA professor in book five (I didn't realize until then that it was for sure going to be in book 5) Harry goes somewhere only talked about so far (and we've speculated at length as to where that is, my guess is Azkaban) Steve Vander Ark who owns a Crup and a Kneazle (in disguise as other mixed breeds) The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Jun 4 02:41:18 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 02:41:18 -0000 Subject: God, I Love Rumors... (Where/Who is Ann Arbor) In-Reply-To: <9fdu02+km86@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fesge+po06@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20074 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Belle_Starr_777 at y... wrote: > >But then, I have no idea where (who?) Ann Arbor is, whether it's > America's > > Hay-on-Wye or whatever, and I also strongly suspect that I'm > > Robert Carnegie > > Meretricious! > > It's up North in Michigan. > > http://msn.expedia.com/pub/agent.dll > That's not a bad map that can give you a geographic idea. > > Belle Oh, goodness, where is Ann Arbor? Sigh..and I thought we were the center of the world. I'm tempted to launch into the song "Hail to the Victors Valiant", but in fact in 20 years I've only been to one University of Michigan football game (Gerald Ford, former President of the U.S. went to U of M and the Chinese government wanted to honor him. When he disembarked they played the fight song from Michigan State University instead of the University of Michigan.....yes, yes, another joke). U of M is supposed to be the "Harvard of the Midwest". Ann Arbor is near Detroit, Michigan, was the home of the Students for a Democratic Society and the Weather Underground, and is the only community in the country to have passed a millage (property tax) to construct a shelter for battered women and their children. OH! And it has an anti-discrimination ordinance that includes sexual orientation AND a domestic partner ordinance. Susan From neilward at dircon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 02:41:11 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 03:41:11 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: Rumours/Inflammatory posts 'thread' Message-ID: <018301c0ec9f$d1917560$3a3770c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 20075 Hmmmm. That'll teach me to nod off after dinner...! I support everything Penny and John have said on this topic and reiterate Penny's original request that the thread not be continued. IMO, Joe Earle's post was inflammatory because, whatever else he had to say in it, he made offensive and unacceptable anti-gay remarks that could easily have triggered OT responses from the group. Any reasonable point he had to make was overshadowed by that. Susan McGee's comments were not, IMO, inflammatory in the context of previous discussions held on this list, but, as Simon suggested, Joe did not know what private correspondence the moderators may or may not have had with Susan. I accept Haggridd's recent point that Joe was reacting to Susan's remarks, but it was the content of his post that was deemed likely to cause problems. At the risk of stating the obvious, the objective of ending potentially contentious threads is to prevent heated debates leading to onlist flaming, and not to censor particular viewpoints; goodness knows, we've seen some diverse opinions on this list. Penny's action was appropriate and was made with the support of the Moderator Team. Let's now respect that decision, and return to Harry Potter topics... please. Anyone who wishes to continue the discussion with Joe Earles can e-mail him directly, as he suggested (especially as he has now unsubscribed). Any comments on the moderating of this issue should be sent to the Moderators at HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. Thanks Neil Moderator Team ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia Mechanimagus Moderator "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything to do with this club: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm From tamf at matavnet.hu Mon Jun 4 02:42:11 2001 From: tamf at matavnet.hu (Tamfiiris) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 04:42:11 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8195.010604@matavnet.hu> No: HPFGUIDX 20076 Lindsay Stirton wrote: > They say that first impressions count. As a new member of this list > I was looking forward to listening in on HP discussion (maybe even hi Lindsay, first of all, welcome to the group. you picked a very bad moment to join it, i suppose; it is not at all like this normally. check the message archives if you don't believe me. i trust the firefighters will have the situation under control by the mornin'! > consider this outrage. All this strikes me as utterly banal. Like all > classic children's literature, Harry Potter is concerned with the 'big' > themes: the sexual orientation of the characters is neither here nor there, i totally agree. i think the subjects of good/evil and all the grand themes are far more interesting than speculating who's shagging whom, and with what... wait, we haven't become *quite* that deranged yet. > the reaction that this has caused within the group seems to be out of all > proportion to the original remark. I am not sure that homosexuality is yes. it started as a joke (i laughed), and somebody took it waaay too Siriusly. most of us kept quiet, hoping that the moderators would take action. as they have, kudos to them. > 'sick', but I see know good reason why, even if it were, that homosexuality > is not a proper subject for consideration within literature -- although I do > suspect that the Harry Potter books are not a good medium for that > particular theme. Do we really think that anything that we judge to be > 'unwholesome' should not be discussed, as though it does not exist? i think all themes should be discussed, but this is not the forum for a debate about the moral issue of homosexuality. we're here to talk Harry - and if anyone can find evidence for his being gay in the books, i'd love to see it. if they can't, let's drop the subject, shall we? ciao Tamf who won't say whose side she thinks those who spread hate should be on in the great wizarding war... From mdartagnan at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 02:49:17 2001 From: mdartagnan at yahoo.com (mdartagnan at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 02:49:17 -0000 Subject: In defense of the HP4GU Mod-Team (was: ADMIN: Discussions vs. Inflammations) Message-ID: <9fesvd+mddq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20077 Hi all and especially Joe, First of all, I think this whole thing is turning into a pointless discussion even if it began as a joke (please don?t tell me I was the only one who considered it a joke). Joe, I'm a moderator on another list, so I might appreciate a bit better the job the HP4GU Mod-Team is doing. The problem, IMO, wasn't that you protested against the joke, but that your original post could become, with an ease you wouldn't imagine, into a debate about the morality of homosexuality. Maybe you didn't notice, but the "threat" was there (BTW, excuse my grammar, I'm not a native English speaker). When I read it, I felt offended. A lot. I believe that nobody has the right to judge others based on race, religion and/or sexual preference. And yet, I prefered to remain silent since my reply could begin a flame war ?and the only lesson to be learned of flame wars is that nobody changes their mind but many persons get hurt. As a moderator myself, I thought the Mod-Team would ask for the discussion to be continued off-list. And you see, that's how it happenned. Moderation is a labor of discretion, and the guys (all of them, including John and Penny, YES, PENNY) are experts in it, believe me. I don't know for how long you've been here, but since I joined, this would be the fourth or fifth time a flame war has threatened to appear ?and yet, thanks esp. to them, it hasn't. You said that you got a message off-list. Who says you were the only one? As a moderator myself, I wouldn't say that I've sent an off-list message UNLESS I wanted to stop a wave of hate mail against that person, esp. on list. That's exactly what they did. And yet, I'm certain your message wasn't the only one sent. Anyway, you might feel that you've been the only victim in this problem, but by assuming the attitude you've been showing on your last messages, you're becoming in the opposite. Please, this is not a quarrel that someone HAS to win. I'm sure I'm speaking for many listmembers by saying that I support the actions the Moderation Team has taken and by asking you to read your posts twice before you send them. Believe me, when you're angry you say things the wrong way, and it seems to me that's what's happening to you right now. Please, calm down. And to bring this post back to topic, I personally think it wasn't such an "offensive" joke. OK, there's no evidence in canon that shows that Remus and Sirius belong together... but strictly speaking, there's no evidence to the contrary. This is J.K's world, I'm just a reader and fan. If she decides to include this kind of themes, I'll applaude her for being brave and show the world just as it is. If she doesn't want to include them, I won't criticize her. If Remus and Sirius, or anybody else, end as a couple, I'll admire her showing of a real prejudice in a book whose main message is "prejudices are wrong". If they suddenly had girlfriends or spouses, I'd like to know about them just the same. Hey, after all, nobody protests about Ron/Hermione (except the Harry/ Hermione shippers, but that's a topic for another day ^_^) Take care, Marijose From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Jun 4 02:51:30 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 02:51:30 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Figg and JKR's Comments (was Re: Mrs. Figg....rumors) In-Reply-To: <9bac61+52ce@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fet3i+hln2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20078 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > > > > > Actually, JKR did NOT confirm that Mrs. Figg and Arabella Figg are > > one and the same, IMHO. The transcript of the Scholastic chat from > > last Oct. 16 goes like this: > > > > She did confirm it in unambiquous terms in either the Blue Peter > interview or the red nose day chat (script still not on web site) > though. > > Florence I'm hoping that Arabella Figg (Mrs. Figg) is NOT a squib since I hope she will be the next DADA professor (although I keep flashing on the security chief in Star Trek TNG for some reason) Susan From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Mon Jun 4 03:00:23 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 23:00:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mottos References: Message-ID: <3B1AF9C7.5127B939@alumni.upenn.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 20079 Despite the fact that I love John's mottos (they're CRAZY, Ivan!), and believe that we've found the subject for Joy's next contest, I have my own proposals: John Walton wrote: > eggonmyhead at hotmail.com said: > > > Secondly, I have the idea of discussing mottos for the houses, we > > know the motto of Hogwarts, but what about the individual houses - > > discussing it with friends we have come up with for slytherin - no > > matter if they hate us, as long as they fear us (a corruption of one > > of Emporer Tiberius' sayings (a genuine Slytherin if ever there was > > one.)) and for Hufflepuff - Underrepresented victims for over 1000 > > years - any ideas?? Gryffindor: We could be heroes, just for one day (Can you tell I saw Moulin Rouge last night? Yes, I loved it; no my husband didn't like it one bit!) Ravenclaw: Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes. (roughly translated, from Henry Beard's Latin for All Occasions, it means if you can read this, you're overeducated) Hufflepuff: We put the "toil" in "Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble..." (hint: if the first two bubbles are gryff & ravenclaw...) Slytherin: Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam. (translated, I have a catapult - give me all your money or I'll fling an enormous rock at hour head - again, Henry Beard) From editor at texas.net Mon Jun 4 03:13:36 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 22:13:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Confirmation of Crookshanks as part Kneazle? References: <9fes18+su2j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B1AFCDA.513E3906@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20080 Rrrr. Here, I found it. Original post of link to view interview: Message 17805 My partial transcript of the relevant part: Message 17808 (followed by much discussion of whether she really said "half" or "part"). --Amanda Steve Vander Ark wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" wrote: > > > Steve Vander Ark lists several JKR interviews in his Sources: > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/site_sources.html > > My link to that Newsround interview (abbreviated Nr in the Lexicon) > also connects to the Realplayer version. If anyone finds a transcript > of it available, please let me know. I prefer to link to text > versions whenever possible. > > Other tidbits from the interview: > > Kneazle has a silent 'k' (well, you never know...) > There will be a female DADA professor in book five (I didn't realize > until then that it was for sure going to be in book 5) > Harry goes somewhere only talked about so far (and we've speculated > at length as to where that is, my guess is Azkaban) > > Steve Vander Ark > who owns a Crup and a Kneazle (in disguise as other mixed breeds) > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor [Check out great fares at Orbitz!] > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter > YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the > messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point > your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter > to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at > hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Jun 4 03:12:23 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 03:12:23 -0000 Subject: rumors Message-ID: <9feuan+ltrj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20081 Once again, I apologize for not being able to immediately post that my "rumor" was a joke. I do have a few comments to make about all of this: 1) I hope people who are lesbian, gay, bi or trans are not discouraged by this series of postings. This list is quite tolerant of diversity. Please don't feel silenced by the recent comments. 2) This is a list which is also quite light hearted and there are lots of jokes posted. Of course, this is tricky on the internet with hundreds of people, and we are all working together to be able to have fun. 3) I am interested in the idea that JKR will not include lesbian/gay characters because she will obviously not talk about sex/explicit sex. This has been stated/implied by several people who have posted. I agree that JKR will not talk about sex per se or explicit sex. Goodness, she hasn't even spoken about people having non-lesbian/gay affairs outside of marriage! (I know some will attribute it to Harry's POV, but it isn't even gossip among the children). In some ways, her books are almost Victorian. She has stated (I think) that the children using drugs or having children out of wedlock would not be something she would include -- it would not be congruent with the story. Yet, she could easily include a woman interested in a woman or a man interested in a man in the same way -- the blush, holding hands, a significant look. I think it's important to understand that to portray lesbian/gay relationships it is not necessary to imply or talk about explicit sex. People who are lesbian and gay and bi are single/dating or celibate just the way people who are heterosexual are...... So who knows? JKR has been rather old fashioned in her gender portrayals up until now, but then again, she is quite radical in her portrayal of class, economic oppression, etc. Susan From JamiDeise at aol.com Mon Jun 4 03:14:45 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 23:14:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mottos Message-ID: <41.c457e58.284c5725@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20082 In a message dated 6/3/2001 11:08:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu writes: << Slytherin: Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam. (translated, I have a catapult - give me all your money or I'll fling an enormous rock at hour head - again, Henry Beard) >> wouldn't Slytherin's motto be in Parseltongue? hissssss hiss hisssssssss Jami From JamiDeise at aol.com Mon Jun 4 03:22:03 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 23:22:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] rumors Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20083 In a message dated 6/3/2001 11:14:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schlobin at aol.com writes: << I agree that JKR will not talk about sex per se or explicit sex. Goodness, she hasn't even spoken about people having non-lesbian/gay affairs outside of marriage! (I know some will attribute it to Harry's POV, but it isn't even gossip among the children). In some ways, her books are almost Victorian. >> I find it a bit unusual too ... especially in GoF, when Harry, Hermione and Ron are all 14, and Harry has a raging crush on Cho. On the other hand, being that it is Harry's POV ... Harry probably knows the least about sex than any boy his age, wizard or not. Do you think Vernon and Petunia sat him down and explained the facts of life to him? I'm guessing no ... and since he was so deprived of TV even before going to Hogwarts, no Britney Spears to capture the imagination either. And while I wouldn't be surprised if Dudley, having been told about the birds and bees by an enthusiastic Uncle Vernon -- he'll be fighting them off with a stick, that boy of mine! -- then sneeringly passed the word onto Harry, Harry probably closed his eyes, for one quick moment imagined Vernon and Petunia creating Dudley, and put the image out of his mind forever. Poor Harry can hardly bear overhearing Hagrid's sweet nothings to Maxime ... can you imagine his anguish if Lupin and Sirius had to explain to him their "love that dare not speak its name?" Jami From editor at texas.net Mon Jun 4 03:27:33 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 22:27:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Homorphus References: <9feprp+2qr3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B1B0025.8FE0139B@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20084 dasienko at email.com wrote: > I was wondering about this very topic, I came to the conclusion that > Remus was a WIZARD-CHILD when he was bit by the werewolf. so the > Homomorphus spell wouldn't work on him at all (thus from PoA- his > parents tried everything, but nothing worked). It's a charm. I'm betting the effects don't last too long--we've been told by Remus himself that there's no cure, haven't we? somebody said that. I think the charm makes any disguised/transfigured human be revealed as a human. Once the charm is performed on a werewolf, in wolf form, his/her identity can be established--it was this, the ability to identify the werewolf and thus take action, which saved the village (for which action Lockhart took credit). > The spell didn't work on Remus because he is NOT HOMO-Sapiens, he is > WIZARD SAPIENS. Wizards are not a different species. They aren't even, biologically speaking, a different race. Not even our "races" are different races. An example of different races would be (in one interpretation of the human family tree) Homo sapiens sapiens (us) and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis (them other guys with the funny lookin' heads). But it's not even agreed whether *they* were a race of our species or a species of their own. Point being, such truly different hominids may not be different enough to be considered another species. So wizards certainly aren't. Wizarding ability is just that--an ability--that apparently usually breeds true to at least some degree, since Squibs are rare, and which is apparently very recessive in Muggles but which can appear as a trait. Any charm, spell, hex, potion, etc., that works on a wizard should work on a Muggle. Or so I think. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 4 03:53:16 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 03:53:16 -0000 Subject: Jump This Way (Filk) & Tom Riddle (filk) In-Reply-To: <20010603194332.83286.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9ff0nc+8dd4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20085 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber wrote: > > WARNING: I am *not* normally a filker. Never written a filk in my life, > so try to ignore the rhyme and meter inconsistencies. But what can I > say, I was inspired by Caius! As Falstaff once said, "I am not only witty in myself, but the cause that wit is in other men." Dedicated to Caius Marcius (because he's cool and deserves it, darnit!) A great premiere effort! Also, kudos to Elena for her "Tom Riddle" filk! - CMC From joym999 at aol.com Mon Jun 4 04:06:14 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 04:06:14 -0000 Subject: HP is everywhere Message-ID: <9ff1fm+3das@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20086 There was a funny headline in Saturdays (June 2, 2001) Washington Post: ELF Stepping Up Attacks, FBI Warns leading me to think - Has SPEW finally been effective? Are the house elves starting to organize and fight their oppression. Alas, the article is about the Earth Liberation Front. Anyone else plagued by HP references that arent? I saw a produce stand on the Upper West Side of Manhattan called *Sirius Vegetables* and I was tempted to stop by and say hi to Mr. Black. --Joywitch From banjoken at optonline.net Mon Jun 4 04:16:39 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 04:16:39 -0000 Subject: HP is everywhere In-Reply-To: <9ff1fm+3das@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ff237+91rt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20087 > Anyone else plagued by HP references that arent I was watching Star Wars (epIV) on TV earlier tonight, and when 3PO said something to the effect of "poor master", I immediately started thinking of him as a house elf. Ken From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com Mon Jun 4 04:19:11 2001 From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 04:19:11 -0000 Subject: A Crazy Idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ff27v+ckq4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20088 First part is replies to Devika's post, second is replies to Pippin's... Devika: >>> Did anyone ever consider the possibility that Snape might be a vampire? >>>>>>>>>>> Hehheh, I see you've gotten a few replies on this. What's really weird is that for at least the last week or so, I've been compiling vampire info to form for and against arguments on this. Now that I've said that, I need to do some filtering and put it together coherently. Btw, search the messages using "snape vampire" and you'll see many (most?) of the posts on it. (A few strays come up with this; some people have mentioned Snape and Buffy in the same posts, so this method isn't fool-proof.) >>> Now, I'm not exactly an expert on vampires, but here's my reasoning: > > 1) JKR has compared him to a bat several times. > > 2) In GoF,Ch. 35, Veritaserum, Snape, goes directly to the > Foe-Glass, "where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." Why would Snape be so interested in his reflection in the Foe- Glass? Perhaps Snape is not used to seeing his reflection in a mirror. Since the Foe-Glass is not an ordinary mirror, it would be able to show Snape's reflection, and this would interest Snape if he were a vampire. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excellent catch. It's probably been years since Snape has seen himself. >>> 3) But if Snape were a vampire, wouldn't he have fangs? Maybe he had them shrunk. It seems to me that teeth-shrinking may have more uses in the books than just as a beauty tool for Hermione. > > 4) Also, vampires are not supposed to be exposed to sunlight. But if there's a potion that prevents werewolves from transforming into monsters, it's possible that there is a potion that protects vampires from the sun. And Snape is the potions master... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of the vampire info I've found relates to both these; I'll make sure to include it when I get it together to post. >>> There are also many passing references to vampires in all 4 of the books--too many, IMO, for vampires not to be important in later books. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. I'll include the reference from canon that clinched it for me with the vampire post. >>> This is all speculation, obviously, and it's proof that I really need book 5 to come out . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the entire group were ever to agree on *one thing*, something tells me it would be this... Pippin: >> I tend to go with idea that Snape is part-vampire, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Could be. Oh, argle-bargle, I'll have to see what's in my notes... >> which some people don't like because according to them vampires have to be dead. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What if he is?...... (Okay, I don't really buy that, either...) >> There is folklore to the contrary, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I'm pretty sure there's some stuff about that folklore in the info, too. >> but the "uses a potion to control it" theory is more popular, I believe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, I think this theory is very likely to play out, -especially- because of the foreshadowing of Lupin controlling his lycanthropy this way. Plus..."--even stopper death--"... Oh yes... Kelley From joym999 at aol.com Mon Jun 4 04:32:27 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 04:32:27 -0000 Subject: Memo Message-ID: <9ff30r+qlf4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20089 TO: Mr. Anal P. Lardbottm Deputy Misrepresentation Office League Of Obsessive Nitpickers FROM: Ms. Joywitch M. Curmudgeon Editor-in-Chief The Daily Prophet RE: Previous Correspondence (see attached) Dear Mr. Lardbottom, I have received your letter informing me of my lapsed membership in L.O.O.N. I can only say that in the excitement of my promotion from U.S. correspondent to editor-in-chief of the Daily Prophet, I must have forgotten to pay my dues. I assure you that the check is in the owl's beak and you will be receiving it shortly. I would also like to remind Mr. Lardbottom that as a founding member and past president of L.O.O.N., and can make the entire organization disapparate into nothingness at any time I choose, and your measly little galleon an hour job in the Misrepresentation Office along with it. On a completely unrelated note, I thought you would be interested to know that the Daily Prophet is investigating an international sweets- smuggling ring which, it is suspected, is being run out of your office. Our esteemed reporter, Rita Skeeter, will be dropping by to ask you some questions about it. We strongly suggest you answer them. Ms. Skeeter is also investigating rumors about a possible violation of the Muggle Protection Act by one John Walton, a member of your staff. Something about a disappearing muggle named Joe and a bouncing ferret. Sincerely, Joywitch M. Curmudgeon -------------------------------- Attachment 1: TO: Ms. Joywitch M. Curmudgeon Editor-in-Chief The Daily Prophet FROM: Anal P. Lardbottom Deputy Misrepresentation Office League Of Obsessive Nitpickers RE: L.O.O.N. Membership Dear Ms. Curmudgeon, We here at L.O.O.N. recently noticed your message entitled "Nitpicker Alert". We also note that your membership of L.O.O.N. expired as of 5/1/01,and that you are therefore no longer entitled to use your status as an Official L.O.O.N. in message posting. Should you continue to misuse the L.O.O.N. mark, we will be forced to send large hairy thugs around to your house to pull off your toenails. Have a Nice Day. Luv 'n' kisses, A.P. Lardbottom Attachment 2: ---------------------------------- --- "Monika Huebner" wrote: > > From: Amy Z > > 2. If you could buy one treat at Honeydukes, what would it be? > > Hm, difficult question. I can tell you what I would *not* buy, though: > Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans. Too afraid of the earwax taste. > Maybe I would go for the Sherbet Lemons that Dumbledore seems > to favor. I just love the taste of lemons. As a card-carrying member of L.O.O.N. (League Of Obsessive Nitpickers), I feel obligated to inform you that you would NOT be able to buy Sherbet Lemons at Honeydukes, since Sherbet Lemons are a muggle sweet, as Dumbledore explains in the first chapter of PS/SS. Confusing, because the American editions call them lemon drops in SS, but call them sherbet lemons in GoF, whereas the English editions always call them sherbet lemons. And, having tasted lots of yummy British sweets thanks to John W. and Neil, I will attest that sherbet lemons and lemon drops are really not the same thing. Is this confusing or what? --Joywitch From corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 04:32:55 2001 From: corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com (Doreen Rich) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 04:32:55 -0000 Subject: Shrek and the HP Trailer! In-Reply-To: <9feqai+2r06@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ff31n+9b0j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20090 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dasienko at e... wrote: > > Doreen, who can't wait for the HP movie now, and who wants to see > > Shrek a couple more times too. A definite must buy video! > > I saw Shrek, Loved it. But no HP trailer. It must be a regional thing. **************** What is the usual *wait* for a movie trailer that is seen in the previews? Maybe I just don't see enough movies, but I do not ever remember seeing previews for movies that were not coming out for over five months. While we are on the subject of trailers ... why is something that is seen as a preview ... before the main feature ... called a trailer? This would make more sense if it were shown *trailing* the movie. Doreen From joym999 at aol.com Mon Jun 4 04:37:16 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 04:37:16 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #5 again Message-ID: <9ff39s+9nu4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20091 I have received remarkably few entries for this weeks contest, which as you might remember is to speculate about wizard's sex and love lives. Far be it for me to speculate about the details of anyone's sex life, but if the response to this contest is any indication, our overall activity level is low enough to have some concern about whether there will be future generations of Harry Potter fans. So, let's get busy, folks. You have until Tuesday to put a little lust in your HP lives. Details can be found in message # 19881 or in the HP4GU Contest folder in the files section. Or email me. --Joywitch From corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 04:47:08 2001 From: corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com (Doreen Rich) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 04:47:08 -0000 Subject: HP is everywhere In-Reply-To: <9ff237+91rt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ff3sc+4hku@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20092 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., banjoken at o... wrote: > > Anyone else plagued by HP references that arent > > I was watching Star Wars (epIV) on TV earlier tonight, and when 3PO > said something to the effect of "poor master", I immediately started > thinking of him as a house elf. > > Ken **************** Mine was a while back, but our Bowling Alley sign had its lettering moved about in a wind and read, "Gob owling". I was the only one who thought it was humorous, since I was the only HP fan working there. Doreen, who wonders what the rules for Gob Owling are and if you need to rent special shoes? From Lindsay at stirton.net Mon Jun 4 04:42:27 2001 From: Lindsay at stirton.net (Lindsay Stirton) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 23:42:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shrek and the HP Trailer! In-Reply-To: <9ff31n+9b0j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20093 > While we are on the subject of trailers ... why is something that is > seen as a preview ... before the main feature ... called a trailer? > This would make more sense if it were shown *trailing* the movie. At the risk of going off-message, I can answer this one. Originally, trailers did indeed come after the movie, and that is how they got their name. Someone somewhere noticed that moviegoers would leave the movie without seeing the trailers, and had the bright idea of switching them to the beginning (with the double benefit that fewer people would miss the beginning of the main feature). Generally in America they are now called 'previews' (or so I am told). Conservative Brits didn't see why they should change a perfectly good word, and steadfastly continue to call them 'trailers'. It would be interesting to see whether the French (who officially frown on les mots Anglo-Saxons) refer to 'les trailers' or 'les previews' but I don't have my dictionary to hand. Lindsay Stirton From saitaina at wizzards.net Mon Jun 4 05:25:44 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:25:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shrek and the HP Trailer! References: <9ff31n+9b0j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <002301c0ecb6$cee522a0$154e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20094 Trailer's used to trail between movies (back when you could pay a nickel, watch a few movies, get the news, a cartoon and a preview of a new movie.) Hence the term trailers all of the above used to be considered trailers till they moved the news onto the telly along with the he cartoons. ----- Original Message ----- From: Doreen Rich To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 9:32 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shrek and the HP Trailer! > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dasienko at e... wrote: > > > Doreen, who can't wait for the HP movie now, and who wants to see > > > Shrek a couple more times too. A definite must buy video! > > > > > I saw Shrek, Loved it. But no HP trailer. It must be a regional > thing. > **************** > What is the usual *wait* for a movie trailer that is seen in the > previews? > > Maybe I just don't see enough movies, but I do not ever remember > seeing previews for movies that were not coming out for over five > months. > > While we are on the subject of trailers ... why is something that is > seen as a preview ... before the main feature ... called a trailer? > This would make more sense if it were shown *trailing* the movie. > > Doreen > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 05:59:07 2001 From: corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com (Doreen Rich) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 05:59:07 -0000 Subject: A Crazy Idea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ff83b+vdnh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20095 While I love the idea of Snape being a vampire, (because I love Severus Snape and I love vampires) I do not think he fits the criteria. Aren't vampires supposed to sleep during the day and only come out at night? Snape has been mentioned, not only being up during the day, but also outside, several times. There is also the Foe Glass thing ... magic or not, I still think a *reflection* is a *reflection* and vampires don't *reflect*. I like the bat idea. Perhaps Snape *is* a bat animagi, as someone suggested. If he is, perhaps that is why Snape *acts* like a vampire with his swishing cape ... or was that swirling cape? As for too much on the animagi theme ... I think it is we, the group, who have done it to death, not JKR. She has only mentioned the Marauders, Rita Skeeter, and McGonagall, so far, as animagi. McGonagall being the only registered animagi of the seven listed at the MOM, I think it very plausible that JKR will write about at least a couple more of them. Before anyone says that it can't be Snape, because Hermione certainly would have told Harry & Ron, let's remember all of the things that Hermione does *not* tell Harry and Ron, such as what she knew about Lupin and Skeeter. Doreen, who thinks it is possible that Snape is an animagi bat. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > After rereading the 4 HP books for the umpteenth time, I'm again trying to > find new meanings in things that I may not have noticed before...all I know > is that I really need book 5 to come out. But anyway, I've come up with a > hypothesis, and I thought I'd run it by the group to find out what you all > thought of it. Be warned, though, this may sound a bit strange at first, but > just give it a chance :) > > My hypothesis is about our old friend Professor Snape. It doesn't answer the > question of whether he is good or evil, but it's still, IMHO, interesting to > consider. OK, here it is... > > Did anyone ever consider the possibility that Snape might be a vampire? I > think he could be. Now, I'm not exactly an expert on vampires, but here's my > reasoning: > > 1) JKR has compared him to a bat several times. For example: > "Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he? So useful to have him swooping > around like an overgrown bat" (Quirrell, SS, Ch. 17, The Man With Two Faces) > > "How fast d'you reckon he [Snape] could have gotten down to the forest? > D'you reckon he could've beaten you and Dumbledore there?" > "Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something," said Harry. > "Wouldn't put it past him," Ron muttered. (GoF, The Dream) > > I know there's at least one other bat reference, but I can't think of where > it is at the moment... > > 2) In GoF,Ch. 35, Veritaserum, after Dumbledore has stunned Moody/Crouch and > enters the room with McGonagall and Snape, he goes straight to Moody. > Finding out who Moody really is seems to be his top priority. Prof. > McGonagall goes right to Harry, so I get the impression that her top priority > at the moment is his well-being. Snape, however, goes directly to the > Foe-Glass, "where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." > Why would Snape be so interested in his reflection in the Foe- Glass? Yes, it > is a magical object that might interest him, but it seems to me that he is > looking more at his own reflection than at the mirror itself. Why would this > be so important to him, especially at a time like this? Perhaps Snape is not > used to seeing his reflection in a mirror. Since the Foe-Glass is not an > ordinary mirror, it would be able to show Snape's reflection, and this would > interest Snape if he were a vampire. > > 3) But if Snape were a vampire, wouldn't he have fangs? Maybe he had them > shrunk. It seems to me that teeth-shrinking may have more uses in the books > than just as a beauty tool for Hermione. > Also, vampires are not supposed to be exposed to sunlight. But if there's a > potion that prevents werewolves from transforming into monsters, it's > possible that there is a potion that protects vampires from the sun. And > Snape is the potions master... > > There are also many passing references to vampires in all 4 of the books--too > many, IMO, for vampires not to be important in later books. > > This is all speculation, obviously, and it's proof that I really need book 5 > to come out . But I thought this was an interesting idea, and I would > like to know what you all think of it. Try to prove me wrong, at least :) > > Devika (whose job prevents her from reading HP all day--the Flying Ford > Clinic has yet to decide whether this will reduce her obsession or increase > her withdrawal symptoms...) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 08:19:26 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 08:19:26 -0000 Subject: Harry/Henry Potter and Harry/Henry V In-Reply-To: <9feo5t+j7cr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ffgae+arqa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20096 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > > Well, that immediately got me thinking that perhaps > > Harry isn't a Harold at all, but a Henry > > IIRC JKR said in an interview that Harry's name (what I call "birth > certificate name") is Harry, not Harold or Henry or Harrison. > > I associated Harry's name with the battle cry "For England, Harry, > and St. George", which my high school english teacher told me was > still used in WWII even tho' it started with the Henrys you cite in > the middle ages. I am surprised that I haven't thought about this before, as I did my final year dissertation on Henry V. It was used in WW2 - in fact, Olivier's Henry V was the first film to be filmed in colour in the UK - and one of the reasons for this was to raise morale during WW2. I am not sure that the parrallel works though. I just can't see our Harry as the irresponsible, fun loving Prince Hal which is portrayed in Henry IV Part 1. Harry, for me, has a great sense of responsibility. He also doesn't have the father/son issues of Prince Hal. I also don't see Harry having the kind of friends such as Falstaff, Bardolph et al. Prince Hal makes a conscious decision to shoulder his responsibilies and in doing so moves away from the friends of his youth. I just can't see Harry needing to make that decision. IMO, their psyches and the issues they have to deal with are very different. Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 08:28:07 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 08:28:07 -0000 Subject: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters In-Reply-To: <3f.1628ad01.284c46ae@aol.com> Message-ID: <9ffgqn+m16v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20097 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/3/2001 9:59:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ilovbrian_99 at y... writes: > > << I have my thoughts that very few of the characters will survive the > series. I think Ron is actually one of the characters that I think will > live...maybe not though. >> I don't think he will. I think Ron's sacrificing > himself on the giant chessboard in PS/SS is foreshadowing of a much more > permanent, but still voluntary, sacrifice he will make. >> The whole Percy > thing is quite interesting I think it would be very interesting to see him > being framed and sent to Azbaken (not that I wish it to happen).<< I can see > Percy's love for the rules being used against him in ways he will not realize > until it's too late. I believe that if anyone in Harry's circle turns against > him, it'll be someone like Colin Creevy. > > Jami I like that comment about Ron sacrificing himself, such as in the Chess scene. When this is put with the centaur's remarks on always the innocent are the first to suffer etc. (obvious paraphrase), and the fact that Cedric's wand core is unicorn, as is Ron's this seems possible. Are there any other hints out there that Ron may be the one to die? Why someone like Colin Creevey? I think it would have to be the unwitting pawn thing, because I can't see him deliberately turning against Harry. I know that at the moment he is annoyingly hero- worshipping Harry (which Harry does put up with, without being too rude and hurting his feelings) but I can't see this ending unless Harry does something which Colin will react badly to. Also, Colin is unlikely to join the dark side - does Voldemort accept Muggle borns? I can't see this. Question, though. Is Colin Creevey definitely 100% Muggle born. We only hear mention of his father, the milkman - what happened to his mother? Perhaps she was a witch, and died before she had decided to tell her husband that she, and possibly their children, were magical people. That would make Colin and his brother half bloods like Harry and Voldemort. Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 08:38:57 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 08:38:57 -0000 Subject: rumors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ffhf1+5cg0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20098 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > Poor Harry can hardly bear overhearing Hagrid's sweet nothings to Maxime ... > can you imagine his anguish if Lupin and Sirius had to explain to him their > "love that dare not speak its name?" > > Jami I don't think this context is right. Harry can't bear to hear Hagrid speak to Maxime, because he knows that he is eavesdropping on something very personal and this makes him feel uncomfortable, not necessarily the subject matter. He doesn't want to invade Hagrid's privacy. I thought this was very mature of him. Catherine From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 4 09:51:19 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:51:19 -0000 Subject: Hagrid owning up (was Hagrid in Slytherin???) In-Reply-To: <20.1762f72b.284bdc74@aol.com> Message-ID: <9fflmn+me37@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20099 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: last night my son and I > were rereading PS/SS, and it bothered me that Hagrid never 'fessed up that > Harry and Hermione were at the astronomy tower at midnight to save his skin. > Considering what a small community Hogwarts is, and that they ended up doing > their detention with him, he certainly knew the two of them were caught. > Letting other people take the rap for you does not occur to me as a > Gryffindor behavior. > > Jami I worried about this on rereading PS/SS. My understanding is that if Hagrid had owned up to the dragon escapade, he would have got Harry & friends into even more trouble, as they had volunteered to help him and so could expect to cop the full punishment for dragon-smuggling. What he did instead was to intercept the detentions, so that instead of getting medals or chamber pots to clean, or letters to sign, they had a pleasant night out legally exploring the Forbidden Forest. It wouldn't have occurred to Hagrid that this could be anything other than a treat. It was just bad luck that they got lumbered with Malfoy (and Voldemort), so he couldn't explain. David David From lumen_dei at freeler.nl Mon Jun 4 12:10:21 2001 From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:10:21 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shrek and the HP Trailer! References: <9fe2bk+pgtk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000201c0ecef$9fd43f80$0f9674d5@PoorClares> No: HPFGUIDX 20100 Well, for all those who love the trailer: Hurry to win your own Trailer Screen Saver. Anyone can do it. We even added a hint to one of the four trivia questions to help you along. There are 50 stills from the trailer, plus a few other shots from the movie that are not too commonly seen. Please enter and win. I spent several days making it. I couldn't afford to waste anymore work time playing the trailer, you see. And they are taken from the high-resolution Quicktime version. So you really do see! www.geocities.com/lumen_dei/contest.html Maria Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop -- "Have Wand, Will Wave" www.geocities.com/lumen_dei Before the movie started, during the previews, the Warner Bros. logo came up. All I could think was, "Yeah, right. I should be so lucky!" Then ... "tinkle tinkle tinkle" ... John Williams, *oh* *so* recognizable music (for those of us who have played the HP Trailer 1,000 times!) started to play! I sat bolt upright! I was so excited that I almost could not sit still!! I believe that I said, "Oh my God!" about 17 times! It was fantastic! And when Alan Rickman came on, I almost dumped my popcorn! Where is the pause and rewind button when you need one? I could have watched it over and over and over ... well, I am sure you all know what I mean. A great time was had by all. We talked about the movie and the trailer all the way home, laughing almost as hard as we did during the movie! Doreen, who can't wait for the HP movie now, and who wants to see Shrek a couple more times too. A definite must buy video! _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JamiDeise at aol.com Mon Jun 4 13:38:49 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:38:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Char... Message-ID: <44.e640ab7.284ce969@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20101 In a message dated 6/4/2001 4:29:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk writes: << Why someone like Colin Creevey? I think it would have to be the unwitting pawn thing, because I can't see him deliberately turning against Harry. I know that at the moment he is annoyingly hero- worshipping Harry (which Harry does put up with, without being too rude and hurting his feelings) but I can't see this ending unless Harry does something which Colin will react badly to. >> I could see someone clever turning Colin's worship of Harry against him ... Harry and Colin are not friends; Harry tolerates him politely but that's about it. Someone very clever and insidious could make Colin see that as a snub, and how unfair Harry's being, and Colin's just as talented as Harry, why does Harry get all that attention, and who is he to ignore you like that ... turning the obsessive worship into sort of a stalker obsession. Jami From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 14:34:25 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:34:25 -0000 Subject: Shrek and the HP Trailer! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fg69h+dgka@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20102 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Lindsay Stirton wrote: > It would be interesting to see whether the French (who > officially frown on les mots Anglo-Saxons) refer to 'les trailers' > or 'les previews' but I don't have my dictionary to hand. Neither, it's "les bandes-annonces", though you'll see the others occasionally with "les previews" being more common than "les trailers". ....Craig From priscilla at theninemuses.net Mon Jun 4 14:52:41 2001 From: priscilla at theninemuses.net (Priscilla Spencer) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:52:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shrek and the HP Trailer! Message-ID: <001901c0ed06$0313f480$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> No: HPFGUIDX 20103 Many apologies, I know this is getting off-topic, but according to my handy-dandy French dictionary, there are two different terms, just like English. The French word for movie previews is "l'avant premi?re". The word for trailer (cinema) is "bande-annonce". Priscilla - off to hide from the listmums for being off topic (sorry!) http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/ It would be interesting to see whether the French (who officially frown on les mots Anglo-Saxons) refer to 'les trailers' or 'les previews' but I don't have my dictionary to hand. Lindsay [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lj2d30 at gateway.net Mon Jun 4 14:59:54 2001 From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:59:54 -0000 Subject: Chapter 12 Summary Message-ID: <9fg7pa+fclm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20104 Chapter 12 The Patronus Harry and Ron are hacked off with Hermione for the confiscation of the "best broom in the world" and are not speaking with her at all. Harry, at least, realizes that Hermione meant well with her meddling, but agrees with Ron that having it stripped down is "nothing less than criminal damage." Oliver Wood, Gryffindor's own Quidditch-mad captain, is horrified by the news and offers to talk to McGonagall for Harry. "I'll make her see sense. A *Firebolt*..." Harry, worried that the Dementors will attack him during the Ravenclaw match, sets up anti-dementor lessons with Lupin for Thursday at 8:00 (obviously he doesn't mind missing Friends). As they are leaving DADA, Ron makes the comment that Lupin still looks ill and wonders what is wrong with him. Hermione tuts and declares that it's "obvious" with superiority and marches off. Lupin and Harry meet in the History of Magic classroom. Lupin has a boggart that he found in Filch's filing cabinet for Harry to practice on. The Patronus charm is highly advanced magic far beyond the Ordinary Wizarding Level, conjuring up a guardian to act as a shield between the wizard and the dementor and is individualized to the casting wizard. The wizard must fix upon a happy memory and recites an incatation: Expecto Patronum. Harry practices for a few minutes and is able to produce silvery stuff from the end of his wand. Lupin lets the boggart out of the box and Harry has a go at it. He hears his mum and passes out. Lupin offers to stop the lesson, but Harry is determined to continue, on the grounds that "What if the dementors turn up at our match against Ravenclaw?". Once again he tries against the boggart-dementor. This time he hears his dad before he faints. When he tells Lupin this, Lupin seems a bit shaken. Harry learns that Lupin knew Sirus Black as well "or thought he did". Slytherin beat Ravenclaw in the next Quidditch match--good news for Gryffindor, according to Wood, who ups practice to five nights a week. With Patronus classes as well, this gives Harry only one night a week to do all his homework, but even he is handling the stress better than Hermione. She is constantly studying and Ron is beginning to wonder how she is getting to all her classes. In their 4th lesson, Harry learns about the Dementor's kiss, in which a dementor "clamp[s] their jaws upon the mouth of the victim and -- suck[s] out his soul." A fate, Lupin tells him that is much worse than death. "You can exist without your soul, you know, as long as long as your brain and heart are still working. But you'll have no sense of self anymore, no memory, no...anything. You'll just--exist. As an empty shell. And your soul is gone forever...lost." This is the fate that awaits Black. Harry thinks he deserves it. On his way back from Lupin, Harry runs into McGonagall, who is returning his Firebolt. He is delighted, as is Ron, whom he meets in the hall. They find Neville at the Gryffindor entrance beggin Sir Cadogan to let him in. Neville has lost the page of passwords he had made the Knightmare give him earlier in the week. The three boys enter the common room and the Firebolt causes a sensation. Ron offers to take it up to the dormitory while Harry talks to Hermione about why Arithmancy is so wonderful. A scream erupts from the boys's dormitory and Ron dashes downstairs with blood-stained sheets and a few gingery cat hairs. Crookshanks has apparantly had a dinner of Rat Tartar. Questions: 1. It is in this chapter that we first see Hermione exhibiting signs of burnout. Why hasn't anyone (namely teachers) noticed before now? Why was she even allowed to take such a ghastly load anyway? 2. Were Ron and Harry right to behave so abominably to Hermione in the affair of the Firebolt? 3. How did Lupin find the boggart in Filch's filing cabinet in the first place? 4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Pretend this is the first time you've read PoA) 5. Wood has the Gyffindor team practising 5 nights a week. Do you think this is allowed by school rules? Is Wood a little *too* obssessed? 6. Put on your thinking caps now. Which is a worse fate: death, or the dementor's kiss? Why? 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at Hermione than is Harry, even in the Firebolt Fuss. Why is this? Chapter 13 is next. Trina From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 15:23:00 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 11:23:00 -0400 Subject: Jump filk - Harry, the name - next DADA prof - lack of romance - Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20105 Amber wrote: >[Entire class boogies down as Moody conjures a guitar and starts jammin'] LOL (to the entire thing, not just this line), Amber! Rita wrote: >IIRC JKR said in an interview that Harry's name (what I call "birth >certificate name") is Harry, not Harold or Henry or Harrison. IDRT (I Don't Recall This), but in my opinion Harry's name is just plain Harry for another reason. When Dumbledore goes into formal mode, he calls Ron "Mr. Ronald Weasley," but Harry is still "Mr. Harry Potter." Seems to me he'd call him Harrison, Harold or Henry then if one of these were his name. Susan wrote: >I'm hoping that Arabella Figg (Mrs. Figg) is NOT a squib since I hope >she will be the next DADA professor (although I keep flashing on the >security chief in Star Trek TNG for some reason) Tasha Yar. Please, no. I didn't like the character, thought Denise Crosby couldn't act her way out of a paper bag, and felt only relief when Yar got killed by a living oil slick. Okay, I thought I listened to the entire Newsround interview, but Steve's caught something I hadn't: the famed female DADA professor will be arriving with the next book! So, let's get the possibilities rolling. We've discussed Fleur, we've discussed Mrs. Figg--any other suggestions? Mme. Maxime? The Sphinx? Molly Weasley (she did go to Hogwarts--I'm sure she can do a lot more with that wand than make white sauce and Summon contraband out of her sons' pockets)? Someone we haven't met yet? Will Dumbledore decide that Arithmancy can go on the back burner 'til Voldemort is defeated and press Vector into service as DADA professor? Jami wrote: >Poor Harry can hardly bear overhearing Hagrid's sweet nothings to Maxime >... Do you think this is queasiness about romance per se? I think he's just uncomfortable at overhearing something Hagrid wouldn't want overheard. Re: Harry's lack of impure thoughts about Cho, I think Jo may just be (mercifully) sparing us the details. You don't have to have had the "facts of life" talk to have sexual fantasies. Vicky wrote: >However, Hermione seems easily intimidated, which could work against her. I think Hermione stands up to intimidation pretty well. Holding Lucius's stare at the QWC, keeping on with SPEW when most of her classmates (including her best friends) think it's laughable, withstanding the ridicule that came along with the Daily Prophet/Witch Weekly articles, taking on Rita Skeeter . . . What do you see that makes you think she's easily intimidated? Amy Z who aspires to be as feisty as Hermione ------------------------------------------------ "Cool, sir!" said Dean Thomas in amazement. "Thank you, Dean," said Professor Lupin. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban ------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jenfold at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 15:35:01 2001 From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:35:01 -0000 Subject: Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fg7pa+fclm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fg9r5+jtcm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20106 > > 1. It is in this chapter that we first see Hermione exhibiting signs > of burnout. Why hasn't anyone (namely teachers) noticed before now? > Why was she even allowed to take such a ghastly load anyway? I think she was allowed to take the ghastly load because (A) Her first two years proved she was accademically good enough to do it and (B)She asked for it, and the school obviously thought she could cope. This again smacks of Hermione wanting to prove herself through school work. Though having said that as a muggle born you'd probably be far more interested in novel magic subjects than a pure blood wizard. And I personally would like to sit in on a couple of Muggle Studies lessons in order to see what strange ideas wizards have about muggles. > > 2. Were Ron and Harry right to behave so abominably to Hermione in > the affair of the Firebolt? No, she was only looking out for Harry's best interests, far better to be safe than sorry. > > 3. How did Lupin find the boggart in Filch's filing cabinet in the > first place? Well since Filch is a squib he wouldn't be able to rid himself of a boggart. So I'd imagine it may have popped out of his filing cabinet when he was updating the Weasley twin's files scared him, causing him to rush out of his office into the corridor, where he bumped into Lupin and asked then him to get rid of it. > > 4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, yeah, yeah, I > know. Pretend this is the first time you've read PoA) The name was a dead give away for me, so yep I realised what it was. > > 5. Wood has the Gyffindor team practising 5 nights a week. Do you > think this is allowed by school rules? Is Wood a little *too* > obssessed? I think if that level of practising was against the school rules the Slytherins would have reported the Gryffindors for over practising and getting an unfair advantage. Wood is a little too obsessed, but then he does want to win the quiddich cup before he leaves. > > 6. Put on your thinking caps now. Which is a worse fate: death, or > the dementor's kiss? Why? The dementor's kiss. Because it makes you a vegetable with no hope of recovery, death would be far more merciful IMHO. I wonder, do the MOM use the dementor's kiss and not the death penalty because they believe it makes them look better, because they're not actually extinguishing the life in the body. > > 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at Hermione than is Harry, > even in the Firebolt Fuss. Why is this? > Ron's latent feelings for Hermione perhaps (ducks thing thrown by H/H shippers.) Someone you really like can drive you to distraction and make you act strangely. Either that or he's just being an normal irrational teenager. Jen From Allyse at my-deja.com Mon Jun 4 15:36:06 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:36:06 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map theory and Threepio the house elf Message-ID: <9fg9t6+ais0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20107 Sorry for the bizarre subject heading there. :) I post so rarely (fifth post in eight months, I think!) that I want to get it all in at once. Regarding the Marauder's Map: A popular argument concerning the map is asking why Gred and Forge never noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew was hanging around Gryffindor Tower, either in Percy's dorm in the old days or Ron's dorm during SS or CoS. An oft mentioned theory is that only a fellow Marauder can see MWPP on the map, which is why Lupin was able to see Wormtail; but the counter argument is that Snape was able to see Moony when he found the map on Lupin's desk. I just wondered if anyone had advanced the theory to include the person who first *activated* the map. That is, since Lupin was the one who intoned "I solemnly swear I am up to no good" and activiated the map, it would still be running in "full Marauder mode" when he left it on and hightailed it over the WW to find out what was happening. Then, when Snape came into the office with the potion and discovered the map, Lupin would be visible, since it was Lupin himself who activitated. I think it makes sense, and I don't remember anyone making that suggestion in the past. Of course, I could be wrong, and I'd be happy to stand corrected if I am. :) Someone recently mentioned that C-3PO from Star Wars sounds much like a house elf when he starts wailing about "my poor master." Actually, I think that's an excellent analogy. Droids can be fitted with restraining bolts to prevent them from running away; Threepio certainly gets tons of verbal of abuse, and Leia and Han actually turn him off at one point. Not very nice, is it? Maybe we need to start campaigning for droid rights too. :) Oh, and Milz: I loved your new verb for Crouch Jr. Being "demented" indeed! Allyse From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 15:57:59 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:57:59 -0000 Subject: Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fg7pa+fclm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgb67+t4a8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20108 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > Chapter 12 The Patronus > > Questions: > > 1. It is in this chapter that we first see Hermione exhibiting signs > of burnout. Why hasn't anyone (namely teachers) noticed before now? > Why was she even allowed to take such a ghastly load anyway? I think they have noticed. However, I think that Professor McGonagall has allowed Hermione to take on too much, so that she can learn herself that she can't do everything. The teaching methods seem to be very much based on letting students experience things for themselves, learning from their mistakes, which is what Hermione has done here. If things had got too drastic and she showed signs of breakdown, I think they would have stepped in. What I am surprised about, however, is that Professor McGonagall didn't manage to persuade Hermione not to do Divination. Prof M does seem to have a mentoring relationship with Hermione - it is McGonagall Hermione quotes when she says that Divination is a very imprecise form of magic. So why did Hermione insist on taking it? > > 2. Were Ron and Harry right to behave so abominably to Hermione in > the affair of the Firebolt? Absolutely not. Hermione's heart was definitely in the right place - she was trying to protect Harry. Hermione displays great strength of character here - she knows that what she does is going to be deeply unpopular with Ron and Harry - but she also knows that making sure the Firebolt is OK is more important than a temporary bad patch with the boys. I think that Ron, in particular, behaves in an appallingly spiteful and insensitive way. Harry takes a very passive role, and doesn't actively show his anger with Hermione - but he also admits to himself that she is probably right, and that being angry with her is pointless, yet he doesn't try to overcome it. Black marks for both of them. > 3. How did Lupin find the boggart in Filch's filing cabinet in the > first place? No idea. I just assumed that boggarts were quite easy to find in the castle - all those rooms with cabinets, chests, wardrobes etc. Perhaps Filch told Lupin it was there (or perhaps Lupin was doing a bit of sneaking around - why? Could he be looking for other items that Filch or his predecessor had once confiscated?) > 4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, yeah, yeah, I > know. Pretend this is the first time you've read PoA) I honestly can't remember whether I spotted this on my first reading or not (such a long time ago now). We know that Hermione always researches everything very thoroughly, and it is therefore entirely probable that she did put two and two together. With hindsight, it's not that difficult to work out. Just because Harry doesn't recognise Lupin's boggart as the moon, doesn't mean Hermione didn't realise what it was. This, coupled with Lupin's name ( a giveaway), the monthly absences etc. are pretty compelling when put together. > 5. Wood has the Gyffindor team practising 5 nights a week. Do you > think this is allowed by school rules? Is Wood a little *too* > obssessed? This is another instance of laissez-faire on the part of the school authorities. I think it is excessive - and I think that there should have been more balance for Harry this year. Of course Wood is too obsessed. JKR writes this in a humorous way, but I have always been struck by the fact that Wood always wants to win at any cost and doesn't put his team's safety first. However, it was his final shot at winning the cup, and he has had to put up with Marcus Flint all this time, so it is also understandable. (Does anyone else see Flint and Wood as having a relationship similar to Harry and Malfoy's ?) > 6. Put on your thinking caps now. Which is a worse fate: death, or > the dementor's kiss? Why? I don't know about this one. Losing one's soul. No memories, no sense of self, unable to think, feel. Seems similar to being in a coma, but awake. I know that doesn't make sense, perhaps zombies make for a better analogy. I suppose that if one is kissed by the dementor, there is at least a possibility that it may one day be reversible. Unlike death. In the meantime, I am more interested in what happens to people who have received a kiss from the dementors. What happened to Barty Crouch? > 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at Hermione than is Harry, > even in the Firebolt Fuss. Why is this? Ron was already harbouring bad feelings towards Hermione due to the Crookshanks/Scabbers situation. He is just given yet another reason to give her a hard time and grabs it. I do not like Ron very much during this part of the book. I think he is mean and spiteful - doesn't even let up when Hagrid has words with them about it - not even when Harry tries to get him to let up. What makes things worse is that he knows that Hermione is looking out for Harry. I think that if it hadn't been for the fact that he was already annoyed with her, he would have been more reasonable about it. As it is, he makes things worse by persuading Harry to go into Hogsmeade etc. Catherine From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 15:59:15 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:59:15 -0000 Subject: A Crazy Idea In-Reply-To: <9ff27v+ckq4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgb8j+qv6c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20109 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: > > Hehheh, I see you've gotten a few replies on this. What's really > weird is that for at least the last week or so, I've been compiling > vampire info to form for and against arguments on this. Now that > I've said that, I need to do some filtering and put it together > coherently. Btw, search the messages using "snape vampire" and > you'll see many (most?) of the posts on it. (A few strays come up > with this; some people have mentioned Snape and Buffy in the same > posts, so this method isn't fool-proof.) You must go to *snapefans* and read the vampire theories on that site. Look for message 272 and 273, my theories ;-). I personally lean toward Snape being one. I hope you will post your info on that site also. I do believe you will get more replies over there. I can't wait to see what you have come up with. We are, however, in the minority on this That's fine with me! Regarding the Foe-Glass: > > Excellent catch. It's probably been years since Snape has seen > himself. I didn't mention the Foe-Glass in my posts but I think it is a valid point. With everything going on at this time, why is he so concerned with his reflection? He might also be checking to see if anyone else is coming. > > Yes. I'll include the reference from canon that clinched it for me > with the vampire post. Please hurry ^_~ > > >>> This is all speculation, obviously, and it's proof that I really > need book 5 to come out . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Snape is a vampire, I don't know if we will even see it until book 7. He must have his reasons for hiding what he is and I think he will continue to do so. > > If the entire group were ever to agree on *one thing*, something > tells me it would be this... Nope! The vampire issue and the Snape/Lily theory can cause some heated debates between Snape lovers. > > Yes, I'm pretty sure there's some stuff about that folklore in the > info, too. Why can't JKR make up her own type of vampires? I think that is the stumbling block for many people. They are determined to go by what Anne Rice or others have written. I would love to see what JKR would do with vampires. It just seems there are far too many comments about vampires in the books. Surely they will come into play. Plus..."--even stopper death--"... Oh yes... Interesting take on *stopper death*. We also discussed the meaning of this on snapefans with different responses. Can't wait to hear your takes on this subject! Koinonia From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 16:10:34 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:10:34 -0000 Subject: next DADA / Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fgbtq+67q8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20110 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > Susan wrote: > > >I'm hoping that Arabella Figg (Mrs. Figg) is NOT a squib since I hope > >she will be the next DADA professor (although I keep flashing on the > >security chief in Star Trek TNG for some reason) Amy Z wrote: So, let's get the possibilities rolling. We've > discussed Fleur, we've discussed Mrs. Figg--any other suggestions? Mme. > Maxime? The Sphinx? Molly Weasley (she did go to Hogwarts--I'm sure she > can do a lot more with that wand than make white sauce and Summon contraband > out of her sons' pockets)? Someone we haven't met yet? I hope it's someone we haven't met yet. I'm not particulary interested in Mrs. Figg as DADA. Surely it has to be someone that Dumbledore can trust totally and who knows what they are teaching. Of course, I'm sure he has always wanted that. He just hasn't had much success. Mrs. Figg is probably qualified but I'm hoping for someone much younger and less interested in cabbages. > > I think Hermione stands up to intimidation pretty well. Holding Lucius's > stare at the QWC, keeping on with SPEW when most of her classmates > (including her best friends) think it's laughable, withstanding the ridicule > that came along with the Daily Prophet/Witch Weekly articles, taking on Rita > Skeeter . . . What do you see that makes you think she's easily intimidated? I don't think Hermione is easily intimidated at all. She is a very strong person. Yet we all have our weak spots. I'm sure we will see her's. Koinonia From andromache815 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 10:54:35 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:54:35 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: at rebirthing/interview References: <9fa1h6+3h9h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20111 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote: > > No, it was at a reading that JKR did in Ann Arbor, Michigan just > last week at Earth Wisdom, a local bookstore...several have reported > sighting her there. > > She said that there was no way in hell that Harry and Hermione would > ever become involved, that Remus Lupin and Sirius Black had been > lovers at Hogwarts, and that Crookshanks would play a major role in > the Order of the Phoenix. Were you being sarcastic? I'm assuming you were, since you don't seem to believe the reading that happened in the bookshop in Canada, since it was from an unreliable source. However, I find the bit about JKR saying Snape was tough endearing. Does this mean he won't die? *crosses fingers* Vicky [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 4 16:41:00 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:41:00 -0000 Subject: A Crazy Idea In-Reply-To: <9ff27v+ckq4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgdms+igr6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20112 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: > First part is replies to Devika's post, second is replies to > Pippin's... I am really looking forward to your vampire post! Go for it! > >> which some people don't like because according to them vampires > have to be dead. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > What if he is?...... (Okay, I don't really buy that, either...) Okay, I didn't phrase that carefully...the objection some people have to the part-vampire theory is that vampires, unlike, say, veela, are not alive and therefore cannot have offspring. Thus, there can be no such thing as a part-vampire. > > >> There is folklore to the contrary, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Yes, I'm pretty sure there's some stuff about that folklore in the > info, too. > > >> but the "uses a potion to control it" theory is more popular, I > believe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Actually, I think this theory is very likely to play out, -especially- > because of the foreshadowing of Lupin controlling his lycanthropy > this way. Plus..."--even stopper death--"... Oh yes... The potion theory is plausible. I like the part vampire theory because imo having a dual nature, perhaps even two souls, would explain a lot about Snape, including how he is able to mislead Voldemort who is so good at knowing when someone is lying. Pippin From joym999 at aol.com Mon Jun 4 16:41:57 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:41:57 -0000 Subject: Jump filk - Harry, the name - next DADA prof - lack of romance - Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fgdol+uf1o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20113 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Okay, I thought I listened to the entire Newsround interview, but Steve's > caught something I hadn't: the famed female DADA professor will be arriving > with the next book! So, let's get the possibilities rolling. We've > discussed Fleur, we've discussed Mrs. Figg--any other suggestions? Mme. > Maxime? The Sphinx? Molly Weasley (she did go to Hogwarts--I'm sure she > can do a lot more with that wand than make white sauce and Summon contraband > out of her sons' pockets)? Someone we haven't met yet? How about Narcissa Malfoy? I bet she knows plenty about the Dark Arts. --Joywitch From blpurdom at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 16:42:38 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fg7pa+fclm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010604164238.16645.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20114 > Chapter 12 The Patronus > > Questions: > > 1. It is in this chapter that we first see Hermione > exhibiting signs of burnout. Why hasn't anyone >(namely teachers) noticed before now? Why was she > even allowed to take such a ghastly load anyway? It really should have occurred to McGonagall that Hermione would be living 27 or 30 hours for everyone else's 24, and still only getting 6-8 hours of sleep in that time. Another question is, because of all the done-over time, how much older is Hermione now? > 2. Were Ron and Harry right to behave so abominably > to Hermione in the affair of the Firebolt? They were being typical sports-crazed teenage boys. Doesn't make it right, but they were probably incapable of any other reaction. > 3. How did Lupin find the boggart in Filch's filing > cabinet in the first place? So LUPIN found the boggart, not Filch! What was Lupin doing going through Filch's filing cabinet? Perhaps looking for the Marauder's Map, not realizing that the Weasley twins had already taken it? And if Filch did ever encounter a boggart, what would it turn into? > 4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, > yeah, yeah, I know. Pretend this is the first time > you've read PoA) Only to someone who'd done Snape's werewolf essay, as Hermione did. And she wasn't about to share with the boys to get back at them for the Firebolt episode. > 5. Wood has the Gyffindor team practising 5 nights > a week. Do you think this is allowed by school > rules? Is Wood a little *too* obssessed? Yes. > 6. Put on your thinking caps now. Which is a worse > fate: death, or the dementor's kiss? Why? > Dementor's kiss. At least, if dead, you stand a chance at becoming a ghost and still having something of a social life (even if you can't join the Headless Hunt). > 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at > Hermione than is Harry, even in the Firebolt Fuss. > Why is this? You know why. Extremely relieved that Hermione is okay after the basilisk is killed, always first to attack Malfoy for calling her a Mudblood...who wants a house falling on his/her head anyway? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From JamiDeise at aol.com Mon Jun 4 16:49:24 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:49:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map theory and Threepio the house elf Message-ID: <8f.b6c13c0.284d1614@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20115 In a message dated 6/4/2001 11:38:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Allyse at my-deja.com writes: << I just wondered if anyone had advanced the theory to include the person who first *activated* the map. That is, since Lupin was the one who intoned "I solemnly swear I am up to no good" and activiated the map, it would still be running in "full Marauder mode" when he left it on and hightailed it over the WW to find out what was happening. Then, when Snape came into the office with the potion and discovered the map, Lupin would be visible, since it was Lupin himself who activitated. I think it makes sense, and I don't remember anyone making that suggestion in the past. Of course, I could be wrong, and I'd be happy to stand corrected if I am. :) >> My latest theory: the map only shows people who are relevant to the person who's viewing it. I believe it's a highly intelligent map -- remember, when Harry first got it, it showed Map Harry tapping the witch and saying the secret password. It's not a very big map -- and it would have to be huge in order to show everyone at Hogwarts -- I estimate there are about 300 people. The map knows who's looking at it and what they want or need to know. Just don't ask me how. ;-) Jami From reanna20 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 16:53:19 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fg7pa+fclm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010604165319.37218.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20116 Cool review, Trina! > 1. It is in this chapter that we first see Hermione exhibiting signs > of burnout. Why hasn't anyone (namely teachers) noticed before now? > Why was she even allowed to take such a ghastly load anyway? Gah, because she thinks she can. After all, she's been able to handle all her classes before, what's adding another one, two, three, four...and the teachers haven't noticed because the Hogwarts teachers seem a bit self-absorbed, don't they? > 2. Were Ron and Harry right to behave so abominably to Hermione in > the affair of the Firebolt? Er, don't know. Knee-jerk reaction says no. But at the same time, I remember being "betrayed" by friends. In a sense, this is what Hermione did. I know, I know, she did it for Harry's own good but that doesn't take the sting out of it. She went behind their backs to McGonagall. While I wished they hadn't acted the way they did, I completely understand it. Hermione certainly wasn't too tactful in PoA, was she... But were they right? Of course not. Hermy-own-ninny deserves better than that! > 4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, yeah, yeah, I > know. Pretend this is the first time you've read PoA) I didn't realize it at all. I *should've* but I didn't. But, of course, I'm your normal vacuous reader. I don't analyze as I'm reading, I'm just along for the ride. > 5. Wood has the Gyffindor team practising 5 nights a week. Do you > think this is allowed by school rules? Is Wood a little *too* > obssessed? Not *my* Oliver! Hey, he just wants to win the Quidditch Cup for once. And so does the rest of the team. If they had *really* thought that the practices were too much...well, it is six to one. They could've overpowered Wood's practice schedules. > 6. Put on your thinking caps now. Which is a worse fate: death, or > the dementor's kiss? Why? Aren't they both the same? Isn't dead in spirit equivalent to dead in body? I mean someone who isn't able to communicate, think, respond, react just may as well be dead... > 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at Hermione than is Harry, > even in the Firebolt Fuss. Why is this? Because Ron tends to take things to extremes. It's all or nothing for Ron and I have a feeling he'd treasure a grudge long past the time it should've been given up. He's very much a person who is ruled by emotions while Hermione is ruled by logic. Harry...I haven't quite placed him yet. Neato questions, really made me think! ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/2/2001 " 'I think it was a bit of an overreaction,' said the serpent. 'I mean, first offense and everything. I can't see what's so bad about knowing the difference between good and evil, anyway.' " - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From joym999 at aol.com Mon Jun 4 16:55:09 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:55:09 -0000 Subject: Vampires and Dementors Message-ID: <9fgehd+4u2v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20117 The Chapter 12 summary question -- Which is a worse fate: death, or the dementor's kiss? -- got me thinking that the dementor's kiss sounds a lot like Alzheimer's disease, which IMHO is certainly a fate worse than death. Oh, and the whole Snape/Vampire question. I tend to think there is a good chance that Snape will turn out to be a vampire -- the signs are there, and JKR has mentioned vampires too many times for her not to eventually give us one. But if he is a vampire, or part vampire, does this in any way explain his deep-seated hatred of James Potter and his abusive behavior towards not only Harry but also Hermione and Neville? --Joywitch From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 4 17:08:06 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:08:06 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: <9fgehd+4u2v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgf9m+1jpl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20118 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > Oh, and the whole Snape/Vampire question. I tend to think there is a > good chance that Snape will turn out to be a vampire -- the signs are > there, and JKR has mentioned vampires too many times for her not to > eventually give us one. But if he is a vampire, or part vampire, > does this in any way explain his deep-seated hatred of James Potter > and his abusive behavior towards not only Harry but also Hermione and > Neville? > > --Joywitch Thank you - you've put your finger on my uneasiness with the Snape-is- a-vampire debate. If JKR can write vampires the way she wants them, then it tells us nothing except that he drinks blood - we can't rely on references to bats, mirrors, daylight, death, etc (I haven't looked at Snapefans but I assume Quirrell was supposed to be wearing garlic to keep Snape off?). So just to say he's a vampire actually tells us very little about what's important about him in the series. If on the other hand he is a typical Buffy (Angel?) type vampire then I'd be disappointed in Jo - it's a cliche too far. I think (and hope) the series is going somewhere much more interesting than: Book 5 Snape is a vampire Book 5 1/2 Madam Hooch is a hag Book 6 Dumbledore is a house-elf Book 6 1/2 Ron is a seer Book 7 Harry is a secret fanfic writer... David From lj2d30 at gateway.net Mon Jun 4 17:16:28 2001 From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:16:28 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 Summary Message-ID: <9fgfpc+88k2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20119 Chapter 13: Gryffindor Versus Ravenclaw Ron and Hermione are furious at each other. Ron, because Hermione had never taken Crookshanks's attempts on Scabber's life seriously and Hermione, because Ron had nothing but circumstantial evidence with which to blame her sweet kitty and he had been biased against Crookshanks since he had landed on Ron's head in the Magical Menagerie. Ron takes the loss of Scabbers hard and Fred eulogizes Scabbers in true twin fashion, "His finest hour. Let the scar on Goyle's finger stand as a lasting tribute to his memory." To cheer Ron up, Harry invites him to Quidditch practise with the promise of flying the Firebolt afterwards. Madam Hooch, like everyone else, is enamoured with the Firebolt and spends some time comparing it to Great Racing Brooms of the Past before Wood convinces her to let Harry have it back. Wood informs the team of Ravenclaw's new Seeker--a fourth year named Cho Chang who has had some injuries, but is back in the game now, with her Comet Two Sixty, "...a joke next to the Firebolt." The Gryffindors have an excellent practise, inspired by Harry's new broom, which handles like a dream. Afterwards, Ron gets a chance to fly and, after Madam Hooch wakes up, they walk back to the castle. Halfway there, Harry sees something that worries him--a pair of gleaming eyes in the darkness. It turns out to be Crookshanks near a tree, but Harry worries it might have been the Grim. He does not tell Ron. The next day is the Quidditch match. The Firebolt gets an honor guard of Gryffindors on the way to breakfast. Percy and Penelope have a 10 Galleon bet riding on the outcome. Harry has his wand with him just in case the dementors come again. When the teams shake hands prior to mounting their brooms, Harry feels "a slight lurch in the region of his stomach" when he first sees Cho Chang. Madam Hooch blows the whistle and thy're off! Lee Jordan makes his usual entertaining commentary, with a one or two or twenty comments about the superiority of Harry's broom. Cho seems to be trying to distract Harry and marking him instead of searching for it herself. After a merry search, he sees it and goes after it. Cho screams and points. Down on the ground are three dementors. Harry doesn't hesitate. "Expecto Patronum!" he shouts, pointing his wand at the dementors. He goes on to capture the Snitch. Gryffindor has won. Lupin congratulates him on his Patronus. "They didn't affect me at all!" Harry tells him. It turns out that the dementors weren't dementors at all, but Slytherins. Crabbe, Goyle, Flint, and Malfoy are being told off in no uncertain terms by McGonagall and 50 points are taken from Slytherin. It is a wonderful end to the game. The Gryffindors party late into the night, except Hermione who has 422 pages to read by Monday. Ron makes a comment about Scabbers liking Fudge Flies and Hermione bursts into tears and runs from the room. Harry asks Ron to give her a break, but Ron is inexorable. "If she just acted like she was sorry, but she'll never admit she was wrong, Hermione." McGonagall busts up the party at 1:00 am, clad in hairnet and tartan dressing gown, like our own dear FFA, and they all go to bed. But not for long. A scream wakes up Harry and the others in his dorm. Ron is sitting upright in bed with a look of "utmost terror". Sirius Black has come to call with a knife. They all run back down to the common room, the other Gryffindors as well. Percy comes in pinning his Head Boy badge on his jammies. McGonagall returns. Percy claims Ron has had a nightmare, but Ron declares it was Black. When McGonagall asks him how Black could have gotten through the portrait hole, Ron tells her to ask Sir Cadogan. She does. It appears that Sirius Black had a list of passwords. She then asks the assembled students "which abysmally foolish person" had the list and left it lying around. A small squeak and then a hand is raised. It is Neville. 1. Why does Hermione not exhibit the least bit of sympathy for Ron on the loss of Scabbers? Does Ron just have it in for Crookshanks because he jumped on his head in Diagon Alley? 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they just a waste of pages? 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it have been more? less? detention? 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy and gang? 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the others will forget he *is* Head Boy? 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? 8. How did Sirius Black get into the castle? The other discussion topic (animal characters) will be submitted later this week to give Amy Z time to get her topical summary posted. Trina (a South Carolinian whose only agenda is to make sure Lady Jane gets her amoxicillin for the day.) From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 4 17:16:52 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:16:52 -0000 Subject: Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fg7pa+fclm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgfq4+cj19@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20120 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > Questions: > > 1. It is in this chapter that we first see Hermione exhibiting signs of burnout. Why hasn't anyone (namely teachers) noticed before now? Why was she even allowed to take such a ghastly load anyway?> Someone mentioned that Hogwarts is a place where students are allowed to learn by their own successes or mistakes, and I agree with that. Hermione needed to learn by herself that she took on a load that was too heavy for her. I also believe that Professor McGonagall thought that Hermione would be able to handle it. In the end, she did, actually, even though it was a rough year for her. > > 2. Were Ron and Harry right to behave so abominably to Hermione in > the affair of the Firebolt? Well, they thought Hermione betrayed them by telling a professor that Harry had received a Firebolt. At that age, tattling is tattling, no matter what the reason. Things were already strained because of Crookshanks, Hermione's workload, and Harry's news about his parents as well as his struggles against the Dementors. Did they overreact (especially Ron)? Yes. But was it understandable? I think so. > > > 4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, yeah, yeah, I > know. Pretend this is the first time you've read PoA) *Stammers incoherently for a minute* I had no idea. > > 5. Wood has the Gyffindor team practising 5 nights a week. Do you > think this is allowed by school rules? Is Wood a little *too* > obssessed? Wood is one of my favorite characters. He's a committed team captain, dammit! Just kidding. He is absolutely obsessed, but hey, Gryffindor wouldn't be as good a team without him. I particularly love the fact that he cares more about the Firebolt than he does about Sirius Black wanting to murder Harry. Talk about being single minded! > > 6. Put on your thinking caps now. Which is a worse fate: death, or > the dementor's kiss? Why? If there is absolutely without a doubt no way back from the Dementor's Kiss, I suppose that is worse. Like others, I am curious to know where those soulless people go. OTOH, what is worse than death? I mean, do people who have been Kissed suffer? That's a hard question to answer. > > 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at Hermione than is Harry, even in the Firebolt Fuss. Why is this? Ron is more hot tempered than Harry fairly consistently. He tends to show more emotion than Harry does. He is usually the one who is ready to jump all over Draco, for example. I think, after everything with Crookshanks, Ron is especially impatient with Hermione, and given her apparent lack of consideration over Scabber's fright, I can understand that. --jenny from ravenclaw*********************************************** From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 17:18:32 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:18:32 -0000 Subject: Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <20010604164238.16645.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fgft8+id1j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20121 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > > 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at > > Hermione than is Harry, even in the Firebolt Fuss. > > Why is this? > > You know why. Extremely relieved that Hermione is okay > after the basilisk is killed, always first to attack > Malfoy for calling her a Mudblood...who wants a house > falling on his/her head anyway? > Can you explain this bit about the house falling on heads? I may be being particularly dim today, but the reference has really eluded me. Catherine From manchisco at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 17:25:41 2001 From: manchisco at yahoo.com (Mags) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:25:41 -0000 Subject: Pretty Fly (for that Snape Guy) [filk] Message-ID: <9fggal+p41t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20122 Snape Lovers, this is for you! Pretty Fly (for that Snape Guy) (to the tune of 'Pretty Fly for a White Guy' by The Offspring) Scene: The Potions Dungeon. Snape is sitting behind his desk, whilst the Griffindor fourth-years cower behind their cauldrons. The Fat Lady and the Pale Witch appear suddenly in one of the wall posters, giggling. The Fat Lady is clutching an empty box of chocolate liquers, and hiccupping.) Intro Fat Lady: Give it to me Snapey! Pale Witch: Uh-huh, Uh-huh! Fat Lady: Give it to me Snapey! Pale Witch: Uh-huh, Uh-huh! Fat Lady: Give it to me Snapey! Pale Witch: Uh-huh, Uh-huh! (Nearly Headless Nick drifts in through the blackboard) Nick: And all the ghoulies say he's pretty fly Fat Lady and Pale Witch: For that Snape guy. (Neville accidently drops his wand into his cauldron. A loud guitar riff begins to boom out from it. Harry jumps up onto his desk) Verse 1 Harry: You know it's kinda hard To get Potions right today This subject isn't cool But he'll teach it anyway. Seamus: He may not have a clue And he may not have style Hermione: But no one in the whole wide world Has ever seen him smile! Chorus All: So don't debate With Professor Snape Cos you know he really doesn't get it anyway He'll make Potions hell Until we hear that bell And then we'll run away, run away Harry: Whenever we see Snape Our hearts are filled with hate Ron: And all we really wanna do is Push him in the lake Hermione: The world needs Potions teachers Come on and do the Potions thing! Bridge Fat Lady: Give it to me Snapey! Pale Witch: Uh-huh, Uh-huh! Fat Lady: Give it to me Snapey! Pale Witch: Uh-huh, Uh-huh! Fat Lady: Give it to me Snapey! Pale Witch: Uh-huh, Uh-huh! Nick: Uno dos tres, cuatro cinco cinco seis! Verse 2 Parvati: He needs to cut his hair But a quick trim would suffice Lavendar: He even made me cry once Cos he's just not very nice Dean: He makes us work too hard And we all wish he'd retire Neville: Can someone please help me? Cos I think my hat's on fire! Chorus (as before) Verse 3 Harry: Now he wants to teach Dark Arts Cos he thinks it could be fun. Hermione: He applied at thirteen But now he's thirty one! Ron: Some say he's not so bad And he's just a moody git, But if you ask me Snape's a little piece of - Hermione: Ron! Chorus All: So don't debate With Professor Snape Cos you know he really doesn't get it anyway He'll make Potions hell Until we hear that bell And then we'll run away, run away Harry: And those who don't hate him Belong in Slytherin. Ron: Cos the rest of us just wanna Kick him in the shins. Hermione: The world needs Potions teachers Hey, hey, do the Potions thing! From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 17:26:04 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fearless Prediction Department In-Reply-To: <20010604164238.16645.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010604172604.53268.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20123 Was glancing through CoS again last night and re-read the Harry/Malfoy duel scene, especially the part where Harry saves Justin from the snake. The black snake falls down into obediant-puppy mode on being addressed in parseltongue. So.... Fearless Prediction: In some future book, Harry will deflect an attack by Nagini (Lord V's pet) and/or in some other way control it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 17:27:06 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:27:06 -0400 Subject: A Crazy Idea Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20124 One of my favorite arguments for Snape being a vampire is that Lupin assigns his class vampires after Snape assigns them werewolves; if SS is a vampire and Lupin knows it, this is a little behind-the-scenes dig, and very funny, IMO. Lupin even caps off a tense confontation by mentioning his vampire essay in Snape's presence just to drive the point home, uh, so to speak. If this =is= all a clue, we should note, however, that he doesn't stoop so low as to reveal Snape's secret when Snape reveals his. Amy "Remus can do no wrong" Z P.S. A small nitpick on another subject, since unless Mr. Lardbottom has missed a beat, I'm still a member of L.O.O.N.: Animagus is the singular (hence also the adjective form), Animagi the plural. Both the US and UK editions capitalize them (unlike, e.g., Dementor, which is capitalized in the UK but not the US edition). singular: "James is an Animagus." adjective: "Animagus registration is required by the MOM." plural: "James, Peter and Sirius are Animagi." --------------------------------------------- Crabbe and Goyle chuckled trollishly. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban --------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 4 17:21:40 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:21:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 13 Summary References: <9fgfpc+88k2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B1BC3A3.9EA6E935@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 20125 Hello all!!!!!! Trina wrote: > > 1. Why does Hermione not exhibit the least bit of sympathy for Ron on > the loss of Scabbers? Does Ron just have it in for Crookshanks > because he jumped on his head in Diagon Alley? > I think that Hermione is just stubborn at this point. Perhaps she feels she should love the outcast kity, much like she herself , an outcast or a misfit, seeks acceptance? Or, even though it hurts to say it, she's just being ignorant. > > 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he > just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? > I think he really did see the Grim. He probably didn't tell Ron so Ron woudln't worry and make a fuss. > > 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they > just a waste of pages? > I enjoy the Quidditch stuff, but I find theres sometimes too much of it. Sure, it's an important part of Harrys life, but do we need the entire chapter devoted to it? We've seen it in the privious two books, and now in PoA. It gets a bit repetive. > > 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, > Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it > have been more? less? detention? > It should have been a lot more. I think Malfoy should have been expelled. ::hides from those who are now booing him at the thought of having Malfoy gone:: > > 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy > and gang? > I think they saw a white form of light, as the patronus probably wasn't at full form. Just a guess. > > 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the > others will forget he *is* Head Boy? > Just being egotistical again. Not wanting anyone to forget the "power" he has as head boy, perhaps. > > 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? > I think, in Nevilles own way, he is brave. He's a klutz and a bit of a screw up, but he still knows where he stands. And for that, he is brave. > > 8. How did Sirius Black get into the castle? > I have absolutley no idea. . I know it's a poor answer, but it's true! Hugs Jamieson -- "I don't need parents. All I need is a recording that says, 'Go play outside!" - Calvin and Hobbes In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams From indigo at indigosky.net Mon Jun 4 17:33:07 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:33:07 -0000 Subject: Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fg7pa+fclm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fggoj+t4eo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20126 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > Chapter 12 The Patronus A very good summary! > Questions: > > 1. It is in this chapter that we first see Hermione exhibiting signs > of burnout. Why hasn't anyone (namely teachers) noticed before now? > Why was she even allowed to take such a ghastly load anyway? > I'm inclined to go with the crowd here. Hermione's academic knowledge is her pride and joy, though she tends to lord it over others, and that's a habit that is not going to serve her well. Perhaps McGonnagall wanted Hermione to realize there's more to life than book learning and that no Wizard or Witch is a success who is too exhausted to lift his/her wand. > 2. Were Ron and Harry right to behave so abominably to Hermione in > the affair of the Firebolt? Double edged sword. Yes, Hermione was looking out for Harry's best interests, and making sure he'd be safe. But she could have asked first rather than going behind their backs. That she did so was a breach of trust twice over: once because she didn't give the boys the benefit of the doubt [yes, I believe they more than likely would've said NO WAY! given their reaction to even her merest suggestion along those lines], and that she was doing the Know-It-All thing again, considering her thoughts and feelings wiser than theirs. At their age, that's a tough pill to swallow. On the other hand, Harry's greated love in the Wizarding world is Quidditch. She knows, having dumped the bag of splinters at his feet, how he was crushed at the loss of his first broom. She knows that when stress gets to him, flying is what Harry goes to do. She had to expect a harsh negative reaction from Harry about this, especially since she was going against his wishes and knew it. > > 3. How did Lupin find the boggart in Filch's filing cabinet in the > first place? He was a Marauder. 'Nuff said? Or maybe the boggart he used in class told him it had relatives nesting elsewhere in the castle. > > 4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, yeah, yeah, I > know. Pretend this is the first time you've read PoA) At this point in the book, not entirely obvious, no. The name was tweaking my mind, but I wasn't sure I wasn't following a red herring by following the tweakings. > > 5. Wood has the Gyffindor team practising 5 nights a week. Do you > think this is allowed by school rules? Is Wood a little *too* > obssessed? > Oh, he surely is. But I think if school rules were against it, McGonagall and Pomfrey would've stepped in. Plus, there is no way that Oliver could've forced the entire Quidditch team to practice every night if they weren't as gung-ho about winning and beating Slytherin as he was [or a close facsimile thereof.] I was in marching band in high school; we practiced a *lot* before we went to competition. Came in third, too. And nobody minded the long hours of field practice...especially when it paid off. > 6. Put on your thinking caps now. Which is a worse fate: death, or > the dementor's kiss? Why? The Kiss. The kissed probably doesn't realize they're walking around a lifeless husk, but how terrible must it be for that person's family and loved ones to see the once lively and vital person completely bereft of anything that made them ... *them*? > > 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at Hermione than is Harry, > even in the Firebolt Fuss. Why is this? > At the risk of stirring up the Wrath of the Weasley Worshippers: Don't kill me! I like the Weasleys too! I cheered when they rescued Harry in the flying car! I felt bad for Percy in Book 4! But...back to the matter at hand: The Weasley Temper. It's not just stereotypical redheaded temper, though there's partly that too. But Molly has a temper. Fred, George, and Percy have all showed fierce temper. Ron is the most hotheaded. Arthur, Ginny, Bill and Charlie's tempers seem less ... you should pardon the expression -- fiery. He's also hotheaded atop this though because he's the youngest Weasley boy and has to live with the ignominy of being the baby brother of some of Hogwarts' best and brightest. He also has to endure the shame and difficulty of never having anything new. Add to that that his best friend is rich, famous, and amazing at Quidditch, Ron's favourite sport. Add to that that his other best friend is a know-it-all who takes *every* opportunity to prove she's smart and the boys are dumb and couldn't possibly form a coherent thought without her. Add to *that* that Hermione has treated Ron's feelings disrespectfully when it comes to Crookshanks and Scabbers -- refusing to acknowledge her 'cat' is out for Scabbers in particular. Add to *that* that not only has Hermione showed zero respect for Ron's feelings, she has now showed zero respect for Harry's feelings, and worse still, potentially ruined the ENTIRE HOUSE'S chance at winning Quidditch and/or the House Cup. Ron is a boy with some major pent-up resentment and anger issues...considering how much pride he swallows and how much anger he suppresses, we're lucky he wasn't much angrier. Indigo From priscilla at theninemuses.net Mon Jun 4 17:35:35 2001 From: priscilla at theninemuses.net (Priscilla Spencer) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:35:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 13 Summary Message-ID: <003901c0ed1c$c4036d40$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> No: HPFGUIDX 20127 Sirius gets into the castle in the exact same way that Harry gets out: through the hump of the one-eyed crone. Remember, as one of the writers of the Marauder's Map, Sirius knew were all the secret passages were located. It's a bit difficult to comprehend Sirius running around the castle, all the way from the passage to the Gryffindor Common Room, though. Do you think he was in dog form, or do you think there could have been another entrance that even the great Gred and Forge didn't know about? Priscilla Spencer http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/ > 8. How did Sirius Black get into the castle? > I have absolutley no idea. . I know it's a poor answer, but it's true! Hugs Jamieson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 4 17:36:48 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:36:48 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fgfpc+88k2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fggvg+5noh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20128 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > > 1. Why does Hermione not exhibit the least bit of sympathy for Ron on the loss of Scabbers? Does Ron just have it in for Crookshanks because he jumped on his head in Diagon Alley?> Hagrid certainly knew what he was talking about when he said that "people can be a bit stupid about their pets". Hermione was very much taken with Crookshanks, and didn't want to have to consider giving him up or limiting his freedom (I'm like that with my cat, too, who is the best cat in the whole world). I also think Hermione was distracted, stressed and being plain old stubborn. How seriously does Hermione take Ron's thoughts and ideas anyway? She seems to not validate him a lot. > > 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he > just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? Harry definitely saw Sirius, not the Grim, but I understand why he thought it was the Grim. I don't know that I'd tell Ron, either, especially when Ron seemed to so strongly believe in the Grim. Besides, what could Ron have done to help? > > 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy and gang? I imagine they saw a silvery shape that somewhat resembled a stag. Since Harry did not aim his patronus at real Dementors, I don't think the patronus was as strong as it would be later when he really conjures it. > > 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the others will forget he *is* Head Boy? Oh, Percy, Percy, Percy! He just loves his title! As if anyone would ever forget who he is. > > 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? I know I'll get slammed for this, but I'm going to go with the "abysmally foolish" response. I earlier mistakenly said that Neville had lost his list, which was wrong, but at the very least, he should have hidden his list where no one could just simply pick it up. Gryffindor was aware of the fact that Sirius Black was trying to get at one of them as it was. My heart goes out to Neville, and I think he's a good kid, but I still think he messed up by leaving that password list lying around. > > 8. How did Sirius Black get into the castle? Probably as a dog and through the secret passage from Honeydukes, as that is the only passage that leads directly into the school itself. I'm not sure how else he could pull it off. --jenny from ravenclaw*********************************************** > > From indigo at indigosky.net Mon Jun 4 18:00:17 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:00:17 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fgfpc+88k2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgibh+tkov@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20129 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > Chapter 13: Gryffindor Versus Ravenclaw > > > > 1. Why does Hermione not exhibit the least bit of sympathy for Ron on the loss of Scabbers? Does Ron just have it in for Crookshanks > because he jumped on his head in Diagon Alley? She's treated the boys like they've been silly dunderheads anytime they say something she doesn't agree with. And she's convinced herself that it's instinct for a cat to chase a rat. She's been so busy with her schoolwork she probably hasn't noticed that Crookshanks hasn't been mousing the *whole* castle, though. > > 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he > just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? Ron would've panicked, as Harry feared. I'm of the impression that it was Sirius Harry saw, in the company of Crookshanks. At the time, though, recalling my first read, I thought he was just overreacting a little because everybody was all, "Sirius Black is after you!" > > 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they just a waste of pages? I like them. I have a vivid, visual imagination so I can 'see' them in my mind's eye. > > 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, > Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it have been more? less? detention? It SO should've been more! It should've been 50 points EACH, just like it was for the Norbert affair. > > 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy and gang? Probably, IMHO, an incompletely formed whitish patronus. Harry's patronus didn't take full stag form until the very end when he became sure of himself and his sigil, IMO. > > 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the > others will forget he *is* Head Boy? > Percy shares a similar insecurity to Ron here, IMHO. He wants to prove himself a shining star in his own right and not just be Bill & Charlie Weasley's little brother. > 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? A bit of each. > > 8. How did Sirius Black get into the castle? > > The castle was taught only to recognize Sirius Black. The knowledge of him as an animagus was still privileged information. That leads me to conclude that Snuffles got in, and kept to the shadows, using the secret passages and following Crookshanks. > The other discussion topic (animal characters) will be submitted > later this week to give Amy Z time to get her topical summary posted. > Indigo From indigo at indigosky.net Mon Jun 4 18:02:57 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:02:57 -0000 Subject: Pretty Fly (for that Snape Guy) [filk] In-Reply-To: <9fggal+p41t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgigh+4i79@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20130 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mags" wrote: > Snape Lovers, this is for you! > > Pretty Fly (for that Snape Guy) > (to the tune of 'Pretty Fly for a White Guy' by The Offspring) > Normally filks make my skull itch but this one had me fighting not to burst into hysterical laughter at work! thank you for a good, good laugh! Indigo From simon at hp.inbox.as Mon Jun 4 18:06:35 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:06:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <3B1BC3A3.9EA6E935@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20131 Trina: <<<4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it have been more? less? detention?>>> Jamieson: <<>> I disagree. I see no reason to expel him. Yes it was a nasty trick to play on Harry, but not one worthy of expulsion. Also if it were worthy of expulsion then so would have been the Sirius prank on Snape (telling him about the Whomping Willow); an incident, in my view, that is a lot worse. Trina: <<<5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy and gang?>>> Jamieson: <<>> It must have been fairly recognisable as a stag. In chapter 22, when Dumbledore and Harry are talking over the events that have transpired, Dumbledore says, "... I remember the most unusual form your Patronus took, when it charged Mr Malfoy down at your Quidditch match ... So you did see your father last night, Harry ... you found him inside yourself." To me this suggests that Dumbledore could recognise it and so was able to make the link between the two when he later heard about the Animagi forms that James and co. took on. Trina: <<<8. How did Sirius Black get into the castle?>>> Jamieson: <<. I know it's a poor answer, but it's true!>>> Priscilla: <<>> The hump of the one-eyed crone is the passageway that takes you into the basement of Honeydukes. So I doubt that it is this tunnel that Sirius uses. There are, however, a few others. Of the seven tunnels (PoA Ch 10), one is blocked, one is the one mentioned above, one goes from the Whomping Willow to the shrieking shack and so is no use for Sirius to get into the school. Of the remaining 4 we know nothing. All of the tunnels that are blocked up and the doors being taught to recognise Sirius happens after his second attempt to get in. He does not try to do so again and gives away no clue as to how he got into the school itself when we meet him later in the book. Simon -- "Paternity leave is available to all permanent staff, irrespective of gender." >From an internal document of a bank in the City of London --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vderark at bccs.org Mon Jun 4 18:16:36 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:16:36 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fggvg+5noh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgja4+4lts@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20132 > > > > 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he > > just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? > > Harry definitely saw Sirius, not the Grim, but I understand why he > thought it was the Grim. I don't know that I'd tell Ron, either, > especially when Ron seemed to so strongly believe in the Grim. > Besides, what could Ron have done to help? Harry exhibits an interesting skepticism about things. He does believe that there is such a thing as a Grim, sure, but in his case he always assumes that he can make a choice As he was told by another famous Gryffindor, Albus Dumbledore, it's his choices that matter. He has an instictive understanding that he has capabilities that others don't. He knows that the Grim is real and that it spells trouble, but he assunmes (correctly) that he'll be able to take it on. That's his Gryffindor self shining through, I think. Why am I so sure that Dumbledore is a Gryffindor? The hat and the sword. And there's one more little hint. Look up "Griffin" in the Lexicon's Bestiary if you're curious. > > > > 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down > Malfoy and gang? > > I imagine they saw a silvery shape that somewhat resembled a stag. > Since Harry did not aim his patronus at real Dementors, I don't think > the patronus was as strong as it would be later when he really > conjures it. I tend to believe that a Patronus is the same, no matter what you fire it at. What matters is the strength of will of the caster, and Harry had a ton it that right then. So I'd say that everyone saw a Patronus and that most of them knew exactly what it was, since there were Dementors everywhere that school year and tghe kids were bound to have discussed them in classes etc. Why would Lupin have only told Harry about the Patronus charm? > > > > 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? > > I know I'll get slammed for this, but I'm going to go with > the "abysmally foolish" response In a sense, I think you're right, but I put the "blame" for his foolishness on something out of his past. I know it doesn't say this anywhere in the books, but I think Neville has been given a very strong Memory Charm or two, either as part of the attack on his parents or as part of the attempt made to help him recover from it. Who knows what that poor kid witnessed? He was about two years old at the time, maybe even a older. This may have been done at St. Mungos by professionals or possibly even by his well-meaning but slightly daft Great Uncle Algie (the one who dropped him out of a window, pushed him off a pier, and bought him a toad). Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Mon Jun 4 18:19:49 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:19:49 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fgjg5+41ra@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20133 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > Trina: <<<5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down > Malfoy and gang?>>> > Jamieson: << wasn't at full form. Just a guess.>>> > > It must have been fairly recognisable as a stag. In chapter 22, when > Dumbledore and Harry are talking over the events that have transpired, > Dumbledore says, "... I remember the most unusual form your Patronus took, > when it charged Mr Malfoy down at your Quidditch match ... So you did see your > father last night, Harry ... you found him inside yourself." > > To me this suggests that Dumbledore could recognise it and so was able to make > the link between the two when he later heard about the Animagi forms that > James and co. took on. Further support for this: in the text: "Plunging a hand down the neck of his robes, he whipped out his wand and roared, 'Expecto Patronum!' Something silver-white, something enormous, erupted from the end of his wand. He knew it had shot directly at the dementors..." The choice of words here indicates to me that the patronus was very substantive and that the spectators including Dumbledore were able to see it, not simply a white light. Later after the match: "'That was quite some Patronus,' said a voice in Harry's ear. Harry turned around to see Professor Lupin, who looked both shaken and pleased." The fact that he was 'shaken' tells me that Lupin recognized the James-as-stag patronus and he's a bit stunned by the fact that Harry managed to produced it. From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 18:23:27 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shrek and the HP Trailer! In-Reply-To: <9ff31n+9b0j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010604182327.86039.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20134 --- Doreen Rich wrote: > What is the usual *wait* for a movie trailer that is > seen in the > previews? It's a promotional thing, so it depends on how much the studio wants to hype it. For example, the Lord of the Rings trilogy is being *very* hyped - I saw a trailer in April for all three movies, which come out December 2001, 2002, and 2003. Now *there's* a wait! It's generally around one-two months, though, for your average movie. > While we are on the subject of trailers ... why is > something that is > seen as a preview ... before the main feature ... > called a trailer? > This would make more sense if it were shown > *trailing* the movie. Because they originally *did* come after the movie, but this was changed and the name stayed the same. Probably changed because they figured out no one would stay for the trailers *after* the movies. ;) For the Star Wars Episode I trailer showing on "A Bug's Life", though, they kept up the old practice and showed the trailer again after the movie was over. Probably to discourage the practice of watching the trailer and then leaving before the movie started! Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From banjoken at optonline.net Mon Jun 4 18:36:04 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:36:04 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fgja4+4lts@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgkek+qsfa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20135 > Why am I so sure that Dumbledore is a Gryffindor? The hat and the > sword. And there's one more little hint. Look up "Griffin" in the > Lexicon's Bestiary if you're curious. Wasn't it mentioned somewhere in one of the books that Dumbledore was in Gryffindor? Soemthing tells me it was on the Hogwarts Express in PS/SS. I know Ron gave Harry the chocolate frog card of Dumbledore, and I think Harry asked what house Dumbledore was in. I don't have the book with me right now, so could somebody either confirm this or let me know that I'm crazy? :) As for the hat, I always thought that belonged to the school, in the care of whoever the headmaster is at the time. Am I missing something? Ken From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Mon Jun 4 18:37:36 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:37:36 -0000 Subject: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters In-Reply-To: <3f.1628ad01.284c46ae@aol.com> Message-ID: <9fgkhh+o1f7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20136 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/3/2001 9:59:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ilovbrian_99 at y... writes: > > << I have my thoughts that very few of the characters will survive the > series. I disagree. I think most will be affected in some big way, but not all that many killed outright. Actually now I've written the rest of this post I've changed my mind. Maybe there will be quite alot of fatalities. I think Ron is actually one of the characters that I think will > live...maybe not though. >> I don't think he will. I think Ron's sacrificing > himself on the giant chessboard in PS/SS is foreshadowing of a much more > permanent, but still voluntary, sacrifice he will make. >> The whole Percy > thing is quite interesting I think it would be very interesting to see him > being framed and sent to Azbaken (not that I wish it to happen).<< I can see Hmm interesting thought. Ron seems to me to be set up for being controlled by imperius. He might have to make some sacrifice to get out of that though. > Percy's love for the rules being used against him in ways he will not realize > until it's too late. Yes, Percy will tend to side with the ministry and Fudge initially(not Voldemort directly), but will sooner or later have some hard decisions. I believe that if anyone in Harry's circle turns against > him, it'll be someone like Colin Creevy. The Creevy brothers must have some important role. We've seen too much of them for them to just vanish into obscurity I think. As I see it the characters destinies are set as follows (just remember divination is a very imprecise art) death (by personal sacrifice): Dumbledore, possibly Ron, Hagrid, Snape controlled by imperius: Ron tempted to the dark side by money: Ludo Bagman, probably not Fred and George now Harry has given them the triwizard winings. tempted to dark side by Power/Career aspirations: Percy tempted to dark side by virtue of being evil gits: Malfoy, Crabbe & Goyle (I'm afraid I don't hold out too much chance of redemption here) impersonated by Polyjuice: Can't think of an obvious candidate - maybe we've seen enough of this? Anyone being tempted to the dark side and making the right decision will probably be killed too. Florence From indigo at indigosky.net Mon Jun 4 18:54:06 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:54:06 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fgkek+qsfa@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fglge+o5l3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20137 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., banjoken at o... wrote: > > Why am I so sure that Dumbledore is a Gryffindor? The hat and the > > sword. And there's one more little hint. Look up "Griffin" in the > > Lexicon's Bestiary if you're curious. > > Wasn't it mentioned somewhere in one of the books that Dumbledore was > in Gryffindor? Soemthing tells me it was on the Hogwarts Express in > PS/SS. I know Ron gave Harry the chocolate frog card of Dumbledore, > and I think Harry asked what house Dumbledore was in. I don't have > the book with me right now, so could somebody either confirm this or > let me know that I'm crazy? :) > Can't help you. I'm curious to see what turns up. > As for the hat, I always thought that belonged to the school, in the > care of whoever the headmaster is at the time. Am I missing something? > > Ken I'm inclined to think the Sorting Hat does live in the Headmaster's office. But Fawkes belongs to Dumbledore, and he did tell Harry in so many words that Harry must have exhibited "great courage and loyalty to me" to have summoned Fawkes to his side, let alone to have been able to produce Godric Gryffindor's sword. I think if it's not incontrovertible proof, there's definitely a goodly bit of stuff that could lead one to believe that Dumbledore's Gryffindor. Indigo [who, while wearing her GRYFFINDOR shield shirt yesterday was asked by a stranger, "is that your family crest?"] From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 4 18:57:21 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:57:21 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fgfpc+88k2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fglmh+f0o6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20138 > > 1. Why does Hermione not exhibit the least bit of sympathy for Ron on the loss of Scabbers? Does Ron just have it in for Crookshanks > because he jumped on his head in Diagon Alley? While Ron did get Scabbers as a hand-me-down, it is one of the the things that is his. Only his. I'd pretty upset if a *seemingly* mean cat tried to attack one of the few things in the world that I didn't have to share with my siblings too. > > 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he > just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? Once I got to the end of the book, I figured he had seen Sirius. IIRC, a grim is a big black dog-looking critter, right? That makes sense to me :) As for not telling Ron, Harry didn't know what he saw, whether it was a grim or not, I'm sure Harry didn't want Ron worrying about either his life, or his mental state. > > 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they just a waste of pages? I LOVE the Quidditch match descriptions. They draw you into the game and make you wish you had a firebolt, or at least a Nimbus and could get a pick up game going in the park near your house. (Or at least that what it does for me) > 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, > Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it have been more? less? detention? They should have been so much more severely punished. Not so much for playing a trick on Harry (although, perhaps the Dementor's Kiss would work nicely), but for playing a trick on a fellow student, thereby endangering a life. At least 200 points each, plus detentions with Hagrid in the Forbidden forest every weekend for the rest of the term and cancellation of their permission to go to Hogsmeade. At the very least.... > > 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy and gang? Well, IIRC, Hermione saw the patronus stag when they went back to save Buckbeak and Sirius. SO it would stand to reason that the crowd would have seen whatever Harry had conjured. I dont think it was a stag, because Harry's Patronus wasn't that strong yet. > > 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the others will forget he *is* Head Boy? Like Ron and Scabbers, Percy being Head Boy is his "thing". It is what seperates him from the rest of the Weasley clan. I think it is more for himself, so he knows he is special, than it is so the other students would remember that he is Head Boy. > > 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? Neville is infinitely brave. If *my* mum and dad were in St. Mungo's after being tortured by DE's/Voldemort, unable to recognize me or any other member of my family, unable to recognize even themselves, I don't think I'd be able to leave the house, let alone go away to school. (Of course, we don't know this until GoF, so he could have been really dumb if I hadn't read GoF. :) ) > > 8. How did Sirius Black get into the castle? As an Animagus, through the Shrieking Shack and the Whomping Willow. (Look at me sound like I know what I'm talking about! :) ) He came in at night, so as long as he didn't run into Peeves, Filch, or Mrs. Norris (or anyone else running around the castle at O Dark:30) he would have been pretty safe as a dog. Wow, that was the first time I did that. I can't wait for the Chapter 14 summary now :) I enjoy it when something/someone makes me think. Michelle <---who enjoys the nice break from work that thinking provides :) From dosser at btinternet.com Mon Jun 4 18:40:11 2001 From: dosser at btinternet.com (Chris Dosset) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:40:11 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 13 Summary References: <9fgfpc+88k2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0ed28$41dc3840$4a5601d5@chris> No: HPFGUIDX 20139 ----- Original Message ----- From: Trina To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 6:16 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 13 Summary 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they just a waste of pages? Personally, I love Lee Jordan's commentaries and the whole idea of quidditch except for one quibble. The seeker's role is far too significant in a "team" game. I don't know of any real sport where one of the players is so influential every game. How often does it happen that someone catches the snitch and loses? (P.S. did anyone notice the similarity between a qudditch pitch and an Aussy Rules Football pitch?) 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it have been more? less? detention? I thought this was about right at the time, but I also thought the Norbert penalty was way too harsh. 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the others will forget he *is* Head Boy? Percy was just being his pompous self. I would have thought he would have transferred the badge to his Jammies each night just in case such an occasion arose. 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? Brave to own up in front of the whole house. I see poor Neville as a kind of house mascot who everybody loves for his tenacity. 8. How did Sirius Black get into the castle? He followed Crookshanks in through whichever entrance he uses. Chris Yahoo! Groups Sponsor _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From michelle at r-t-n.com Mon Jun 4 19:08:41 2001 From: michelle at r-t-n.com (michelle at r-t-n.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 19:08:41 -0000 Subject: Pretty Fly (for that Snape Guy) [filk] In-Reply-To: <9fggal+p41t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgmbp+9n8b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20140 That is just GREAT! I'm sitting in my office wiping tears of laughter from my eyes and wishing that I knew some other aduls that read HP that I could send this to. Too bad I run with a pretty boring crowd. From vderark at bccs.org Mon Jun 4 19:24:13 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 19:24:13 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fgkek+qsfa@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgn8t+qmsi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20141 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., banjoken at o... wrote: > > Why am I so sure that Dumbledore is a Gryffindor? The hat and the > > sword. And there's one more little hint. Look up "Griffin" in the > > Lexicon's Bestiary if you're curious. > > Wasn't it mentioned somewhere in one of the books that Dumbledore was > in Gryffindor? It was stated by Hermione, who said she THOUGHT he was. I took that as meaning that he was, but there was some discussion recently about it, that she might have been wrong. So I just thought I'd add a little bit more. > As for the hat, I always thought that belonged to the school, in the > care of whoever the headmaster is at the time. Am I missing something? This is from the Sorting Hat's song in GoF: Yet how to pick the worthy ones When they were dead and gone? `Twas Gryffindor who found the way, He whipped me off his head The founders put some brains in me So I could choose instead! Now it probably sits in the headmaster's office all the time, but in this case it came to Harry's rescue when he professed his loyalty to Dumbledore, so I see a special connection there. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From reanna20 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 19:26:33 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010604192633.75746.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20142 --- Amy Z wrote: > > However, Hermione seems easily intimidated, which could work against > > her. > > I think Hermione stands up to intimidation pretty well. Holding > Lucius's stare at the QWC, keeping on with SPEW when most of her > classmates (including her best friends) think it's laughable, > withstanding the ridicule that came along with the Daily > Prophet/Witch Weekly articles, taking on Rita Skeeter . . . What do > you see that makes you think she's easily intimidated? Amen to that! And don't forget that she's willing to stand against her best friends for what *she* thinks is right (Scabbers, Firebolt Incidents). That is something that I rarely see people do nowadays. I know I would have a hard time opposing my friends if they took a radically different viewpoint from me on an issue. That girl is definitely not intimidated. I mean, who else would take on tons of extra classes and live longer than 24 hour days? I imagine that McGonagall probably tried to talk her out of it/tried to reason with her. I can just imagine her answer. "Oh, but Professor, there's so much to know! If only I could take all these classes to be better prepared..." In summary, Hermione is a powerhouse of will; nobody get in her way, she'll mow you down! ~Amber (Who has a soft spot for Hermione...not that you can't tell...) ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/2/2001 " 'I think it was a bit of an overreaction,' said the serpent. 'I mean, first offense and everything. I can't see what's so bad about knowing the difference between good and evil, anyway.' " - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From blpurdom at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 19:52:52 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fgft8+id1j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010604195253.3789.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20143 > 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at > Hermione than is Harry, even in the Firebolt > Fuss. Why is this? > > > > You know why. Extremely relieved that Hermione is > okay after the basilisk is killed, always first to > attack Malfoy for calling her a Mudblood...who wants > a house falling on his/her head anyway? > > > Can you explain this bit about the house falling on > heads? I may be > being particularly dim today, but the reference has > really eluded me. > > Catherine > First a disclaimer: I'm not a shipper of any kind. But given that JKR herself has said that there's something going on between Ron and Hermione that Ron is not hip to yet, I was trying in an oblique way (not to get the ire up of H/H shippers, as another person already said) to say that it's because of his feelings for her. Again: I'm not a shipper! H/H shippers: Don't freak out! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 19:59:53 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 19:59:53 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fgfpc+88k2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fgpbp+8soh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20144 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > 1. Why does Hermione not exhibit the least bit of sympathy for Ron on > the loss of Scabbers? Does Ron just have it in for Crookshanks > because he jumped on his head in Diagon Alley? > Well for one thing, she barely gets a chance to because Ron is already not speaking to her because of the Firebolt etc. I also think that although she does feel bad for Ron, she is being protective of Crookshanks - I think she intuitively knows that Crookshanks wasn't responsible. Also - proof. Hermione is always very fair minded. The evidence against Crookshanks is circumstantial - she cannot therefore admit that Scabbers is dead and that Crookshanks ate him, because she doesn't know this to be the case. Therefore, she and Ron are in a kind of stalemate. > 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he > just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? Of course he didn't see the Grim - he saw Sirius! I don't think he imagined it, because there is at least one other instance when Sirius and Crookshanks are seen together by Harry, so it follows that he was probably there on this occasion too. I don't think he tells Ron because Ron has already got into a panic about how bad it is to see a Grim - and Harry doesn't want any more doom and gloom at the moment. I think he also realises that it sounds slightly melodramatic - and he hates drawing attention to himself in that way. > 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they > just a waste of pages? I, personally, love the Quidditch descriptions. I've never been a great sports enthusiast, but JKR's description here is brilliant. They are so visual. I also am a big Lee Jordan fan - I love his commentary, I love the interaction between him and Professor McGonagall (love it when she loses her cool and shakes her fist at the Slytherins) and I also like the fact that JKR moves away from Harry's POV on occasion during the matches - such as the scene when Harry is being cursed by Quirrell and Hermione sets fire to Snape. Or when Neville squares up to a fight with Crabbe and Goyle. Wonderful. I still get excited - and on every reading think that perhaps Harry won't get the Snitch afterall. > 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, > Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it > have been more? less? detention? I agree with Jamieson - I'd have expelled him. Perhaps not, but such tactics could at least have got Slytherin disqualified from the Quidditch Tournament that year. > 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy > and gang? I thought they saw the stag - because Dumbledore noticed the form it took, and remembered when he was told that James was an animagus stag. > 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the > others will forget he *is* Head Boy? Poor Percy! I know he's a pompous twit, but he is so lovably anal! He must also have a severe inferiority complex. He strikes me as someone who feels he isn't accepted as himself, and therefore has to have some kind of label/ position for validiction. > 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? Poor Neville, as well. I wish he hadn't owned up, because he didn't deserve the punishment - and we know that Crookshanks stole the passwords. I think he's brave - he always comes through in the end, and for someone with his memory problems, dealing with Sir Cadogan must have been a nightmare. Ever since it was mentioned recently, I have been scanning the books for references to Neville's memory. JKR hardly ever mentions him without making some comment about his forgetfulness. I am becoming more and more convinced that she is deliberately drawing attention to this, and that Neville was the recipient of a memory charm. (Probably why she used Bertha Jorkins as well - so parallels could be drawn). From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 20:34:22 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:34:22 +0200 Subject: What are muggles, anyway? References: <9ff30r+qlf4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <025701c0ed35$bcd3a350$5772023e@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 20145 Just a thought that has been bugging me for a while: What *is* the essence of mugglehood? Is there some positive characteristic which muggles possess but wizards don't, or are muggles simply human beings lacking the "magic gene"? I completed my yearly re-read of LOTR & Simirilion last week and noticed that Tolkien's men are not simply diminished elves but fundamentally different beings. They are mortal and they are less magical than elves--but they are physically stronger than elves, and the humans with no elvish blood are more vigorous about having babies. [At least the normal ones: according to Joywitch's reports, there may be something Numenorian about us lot... ] Do you all think Rowling's world is utterly different in this respect, and that muggles are simply diminished wizards? Or could it be that muggles have certain positive characteristcs that wizards lack, such that the two parts of the species complete each other? Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high." From jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net Mon Jun 4 20:57:34 2001 From: jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net (Jennye & Michael Woolf) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:57:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and vampirism In-Reply-To: <9ff27v+ckq4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0ed38$fb44de80$d8094a42@Dexter> No: HPFGUIDX 20146 First off, I want to introduce myself to the list since this is my first posting. My name is Jennye, I am 29, married and have a baby who doesn't yet appreciate HP, but I am sure he will! That said, I want to jump in on this thread. I had just been following it and was on the Snape-is-not-a-vampire side when I was rereading PoA. After Snape assigned the werewolf essay to the DADA class to try to get the class to realize that Lupin was a werewolf, Lupin later assigned a vampire essay to the class (granted it was a few months later, but still...) It was the only essay that they discussed at length that they had to do for Lupin, *and* Lupin made a point of mentioning that he was having the students write the vampire essay when he rescued Harry and Ron from Snape's office when Snape found the Marauder's Map on Harry. Just my 2 Knuts on the subject. Jennye [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net Mon Jun 4 21:01:57 2001 From: jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net (Jennye & Michael Woolf) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:01:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fg7pa+fclm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000501c0ed39$983087d0$d8094a42@Dexter> No: HPFGUIDX 20147 << 4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Pretend this is the first time you've read PoA) Actually, I think it is obvious. The first time I read PoA, I did have it figured out by that point. Of course, Lupin's name kind of gave it away to me, but still... << 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at Hermione than is Harry, even in the Firebolt Fuss. Why is this? It's obviously the red hair! Everyone knows redheds have hot tempers! *g* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 4 21:23:03 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:23:03 -0000 Subject: I don't get it Message-ID: <9fgu7n+najr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20148 Ok, so I could be the moron of the group, or I just missed this particular discussion but ... How does everyone know about Lupin based on his name? I really don't get it! Michelle <--- I *AM* blonde :) p.s. Is this an on-topic question? From jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net Mon Jun 4 21:29:55 2001 From: jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net (Jennye & Michael Woolf) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:29:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fgfpc+88k2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000a01c0ed3d$80801700$d8094a42@Dexter> No: HPFGUIDX 20149 << 1. Why does Hermione not exhibit the least bit of sympathy for Ron on the loss of Scabbers? Does Ron just have it in for Crookshanks because he jumped on his head in Diagon Alley? I think that Hermione is in semi-denial about the Scabbers incident. She never *really* believed that he was dead when Ron came down with the blood stained sheet. She insisted that he look under all the beds to try to find him. I don't think she had any real reason to believe he wasn't dead though, she just didn't want to believe that Crookshanks had hurt him. << 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? Have you read PoA before? The answer about the "grim" comes later when he meets up with Sirius Black. << 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they just a waste of pages? I do like them. I dunno why. << 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it have been more? less? detention? It has always annoyed me that Malfoy and his cronies never get equal punishment for what I think to be worse crimes. Maybe McGonagall is harder on Harry et al because she expects more from them...? 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy and gang? I think they saw the same Patronus that Harry conjures later in the book 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the others will forget he *is* Head Boy? I think he is just really high-and-mighty about the whole HB thing and likes to wave around his symbol of "power." 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? Poor Neville. I think he is brave AND a schlemiel. He really wants to do good and brave things (why else would he be in Gryffindor?) but he just can't seem to get himself together. 8. How did Sirius Black get into the castle? Again, Have you read PoA before? The answer about this comes later. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 4 21:41:06 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:41:06 -0000 Subject: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <025701c0ed35$bcd3a350$5772023e@shasta> Message-ID: <9fgv9i+5d5l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20150 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" wrote: > Just a thought that has been bugging me for a while: > > What *is* the essence of mugglehood? Is there some positive characteristic > which muggles possess but wizards don't, or are muggles simply human beings > lacking the "magic gene"? A hearty Baaaa! to you, because I have been thinking about the very same thing. Now, I am no scientist, so please bear with me, but here is my theory: It is said that we only use something like 12% of our brains. The big question is what happens to the other 88%? If we could use more of our brains, what would happen? I think that wizards and witches are able to use more of their brains (or parts of their brains that muggles can't use). I remember Amanda Lewinski (and others, too) talking about how magic comes from the self, and stronger selves (or focus) can result in magic without a wand. Now, muggles don't seem to be able to do magic even with a wand (I know I can't, and believe me, I've tried), but witches and wizards can (Harry and Neville for example). There must be something more to them than muggles. I think it has to do with their brains - but not necessarily intelligence. They just have different (and more) capabilities. Anyway, that's what I came up with. Wish I could express myself as well as Amanda, Amy Z, Ebony and Naama, but this will have to do! --jenny from ravenclaw******************************** From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 4 21:51:41 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:51:41 -0000 Subject: Turning to the Dark Side Message-ID: <9fgvtd+ov0b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20151 I've been reading postings that speculate about which characters will "turn" to the Dark Side. Something about that is bothering me. What exactly does it take to "turn" to the Dark Side anyway? I mean, we know that Barty Crouch Jr loathed and rebelled against his neglectful father, but why would anyone think that someone like Percy, for example, would choose to go down the evil road? How would that happen? Would Percy (or Ron or Hermione, Hagrid, Pigwidgeon, or the Fat Lady) go looking for Voldie to say "Hey, my life sucks. Can I join you?" Or would Fred and George's desire for money make them consciously want to be DEs? Short of the Imperius Curse, I am curious to know what others think about this. I am not talking about characters who might accidentally pass on information to the wrong side or trust the wrong person at some point in time. I am talking about the characters who choose to side with Voldie and his supporters, perform the Cruciatius Curse, turn their noses up at Muggle-borns and so on, which is a drastic thing to do, IMO. Any thoughts, anyone? --jenny from ravenclaw******************************** From banjoken at optonline.net Mon Jun 4 22:03:21 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 22:03:21 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <9fgn8t+qmsi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fh0j9+a8ue@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20152 > this case it came to Harry's rescue when he professed his loyalty > to Dumbledore, so I see a special connection there. Fawkes came to Harry's rescue, and brought the hat with him. At least, that's how I understand it. The hat, I would think, is neutral. Yes, it was Gryffindor's to begin with, but the "brains" in it have to be from all four founders so it can sort new students correctly. Maybe a Huffelpuff or Ravenclaw could pull something else from it that belonged to the founder of their house? Ken From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu Mon Jun 4 22:05:49 2001 From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 18:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] I don't get it In-Reply-To: <9fgu7n+najr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20153 On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, M. Barnett wrote: > Ok, so I could be the moron of the group, or I just missed this > particular discussion but ... > > How does everyone know about Lupin based on his name? > > I really don't get it! Personally, I am inclined to disbelieve all those who say they knew based on the name alone. I suppose it's possible, but really, I didn't know until (like Harry and Ron) I was told. (I didn't wonder about Hermione's schedule much either.) *shrugs* But at any rate, it's certainly not obvious in any sort of 'one should feel stupid for not having known from the beginning' way! (Rereading PoA now, it's obvious, but I did *not* guess the first time.) "Lupin" suggests werewolfism because the 'lup' root means 'wolf'; his first name, Remus, also suggests a connection to wolves because in Roman mythology Romulus and Remus were nursed by a she-wolf. But it's not at all moronic to not have realized! (And yes, your question was completely on-topic! *g*) --jen, notoriously uncurious about guessing endings and plot-twists :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From priscilla at theninemuses.net Mon Jun 4 22:09:22 2001 From: priscilla at theninemuses.net (Priscilla Spencer) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:09:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I don't get it Message-ID: <00b801c0ed43$032c4ac0$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> No: HPFGUIDX 20154 Remus Lupin is one of the most classic examples of JKR's use of aptly named characters. "Remus", according to Roman mythology, was one of the twin boys raised by a mother wolf. His twin, Romulus, went off to found Rome. "Lupin" is a variant of "lupus", which is Latin for "wolf". In fact, I have a website entirely devoted to seeking out the sources for HP name etymology. If this interests you, you might want to give it a look. The address is: http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/ Priscilla Spencer -----Original Message----- From: M. Barnett To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 04, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] I don't get it Ok, so I could be the moron of the group, or I just missed this particular discussion but ... How does everyone know about Lupin based on his name? I really don't get it! Michelle <--- I *AM* blonde :) p.s. Is this an on-topic question? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 4 22:24:48 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 22:24:48 -0000 Subject: Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fggoj+t4eo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fh1rg+7vib@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20155 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > > > > 1. It is in this chapter that we first see Hermione exhibiting > signs > > of burnout. Why hasn't anyone (namely teachers) noticed before > now? > > Why was she even allowed to take such a ghastly load anyway? > > One thing I've wondered about - why couldn't Hermione have used the turner to dial up a few extra hours of naptime? Maybe she was being too Type A to think of it (she would have never thought to use to save Black and Buckbeak without Dumbledore's prompting). Or maybe, just like meeting your past or future self, terrible things have happened to wizards who overslept while time-turning! > > > 6. Put on your thinking caps now. Which is a worse fate: death, or > > the dementor's kiss? Why? > It depends - whatever her religious beliefs may be, JKR clearly shows - via the ghosts - that there is some kind of an afterlife in her magical universe. So how does having one's soul sucked out by a Dementor affect one's afterlife spiritual status? My guess is that the Kiss has a most unfavorable effect on same. I'll stick with Death. - CMC From bak42 at netzero.net Mon Jun 4 19:17:00 2001 From: bak42 at netzero.net (bak42) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:17:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 12 Summary References: <9fg7pa+fclm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0ed47$0ff2b880$89710404@bak42> No: HPFGUIDX 20156 ----- Original Message ----- From: Trina To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 7:59 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 12 Summary Questions: 1. It is in this chapter that we first see Hermione exhibiting signs of burnout. Why hasn't anyone (namely teachers) noticed before now? Why was she even allowed to take such a ghastly load anyway? I figured that this was a "trial by fire" and the teachers know that if she can't handle the workload she will cut back on her schedule next year. 2. Were Ron and Harry right to behave so abominably to Hermione in the affair of the Firebolt? No 3. How did Lupin find the boggart in Filch's filing cabinet in the first place? He probably asked someone where he could find a Boggart. 4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Pretend this is the first time you've read PoA) I don't think that it is obvious what's making Lupin ill, at least I had no clue the first time I read PoA. 5. Wood has the Gyffindor team practising 5 nights a week. Do you think this is allowed by school rules? Is Wood a little *too* obssessed? Too obsessed? What's that? I think that Wood realizes this is his last chance to win the Quidditch Cup and has become a little obesessed over it. 6. Put on your thinking caps now. Which is a worse fate: death, or the dementor's kiss? Why? The Kiss, because with the kiss you continue living but as an empty shell no longer deriving any enjoyment from life. 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at Hermione than is Harry, even in the Firebolt Fuss. Why is this? Because Ron has a bit more of a temper than Harry. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Brandon 73% obsessed with Harry Potter Earth: Mostly Harmless Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy "You know, said Ron, whose hair was on end because of all the times he had run his fingers through it in frustration, "I think it's time for the old Divination standby." "What--make it up?" Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Mon Jun 4 22:56:47 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:56:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I don't get it References: <9fgu7n+najr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B1C122F.A127BE14@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20157 "M. Barnett" wrote: > Ok, so I could be the moron of the group, or I just missed his > particular discussion but ... > > How does everyone know about Lupin based on his name? Lupin is strongly reminiscent of lup- words, from the Latinate (I think) root for "wolf." Plus Texas bluebonnets are lupines, which I think are so-called because wolfsbane is in that family (this may be legend; I never checked it out, but the association did help the tip-off). That his first name was Remus cemented it--Remus and Romulus were the Roman twins suckled by the she-wolf, who grew up to found Rome (or at least Romulus founded Rome; he ended up accidentally killing his brother when they disagreed over which hill to build their city on; too bad they didn't know about urban sprawl then). --Amanda, professional connector of random thoughts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rja.carnegie at excite.com Mon Jun 4 23:04:59 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 23:04:59 -0000 Subject: Mottos In-Reply-To: <41.c457e58.284c5725@aol.com> Message-ID: <9fh46r+abdf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20158 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/3/2001 11:08:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... writes: > > << Slytherin: > Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane > mittam. (translated, I have a catapult - give me all your money or I'll fling > an enormous rock at hour head - again, Henry Beard) > >> > > wouldn't Slytherin's motto be in Parseltongue? hissssss hiss hisssssssss Good idea - but I think none of _them_, masters or students, can speak Parseltongue either. Bit of a drawback, that. Given Salazar Slytherin's troubled relationship with the school, how about "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member"? Bit long, though - still, they could inscribe it lengthwise on their heraldic serpent. There's a musical instrument called the serpent, but "The note depends very much on the embouchure" is as near to there as I want to go :-) If that was their motto, it has the merit (as they might see it) that when you find out what it means, it's too late. Is there a wizarding version of "All your base are belong to us"? Or, plain and simple - but subtle - "Break a leg". "Snake eyes, you lose"? Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From blpurdom at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 23:10:59 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] I don't get it In-Reply-To: <9fgu7n+najr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010604231059.61526.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20159 --- "M. Barnett" wrote: > > How does everyone know about Lupin based on his > name? > > I really don't get it! > > Michelle <--- I *AM* blonde :) > Lupus is the Latin for wolf; Lupin is similar to the English word lupine, meaning wolf-like. Remus is one of the twins (Romulus and Remus) who were suckled by a she-wolf and are supposedly founders of Rome, which was supposedly named after Romulus. Maybe JKR will give Remus Lupin a twin brother Romulus. Or maybe that would be too precious. Of course, he received his name at birth and was then bitten by a werewolf as a child. Perhaps his parents should have thought better of the name they gave him. If ever someone's destiny were in his name... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 23:19:50 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 23:19:50 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter Bug Message-ID: <9fh52m+s7ou@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20160 On the subject that Rita Skeeter is an unregistered animagus, which people keep mentioning from time to time: Actually, I'm pretty sure she is registered. Paraphrasing from Ch. 31 (p.614, U.S.) of GoF, Hermione is tring to figure out how Rita (that cow!) is listening in AND getting past Moody's eye, when she gets a dreamy look and then says, "I think I've got it...just give me two seconds in the library to check it out." I assume that she is going to the library to check the animagi list. After all, it's been a year (maybe more) since she looked up McGonagall, and she proabably didn't pay any attention to the name Rita Skeeter the last time, considering that she didn't know who Rita Skeeter (that cow!) was at the time. Stephanie From rja.carnegie at excite.com Mon Jun 4 23:28:40 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 23:28:40 -0000 Subject: HP is everywhere In-Reply-To: <9ff3sc+4hku@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fh5j8+mk09@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20161 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" wrote: > > > Anyone else plagued by HP references that arent > > > Mine was a while back, but our Bowling Alley sign had its lettering > moved about in a wind and read, "Gob owling". I was the only one who > thought it was humorous, since I was the only HP fan working there. > > Doreen, who wonders what the rules for Gob Owling are and if you need > to rent special shoes? The note depends very much on the embouchure. (I hope these go out in the order I write them...) Do we know the rules for Gobstones? (POA Ch 11) Are there rules? Lightbulb goes on over head...check Lexicon. Hmm. Lexicon says that Gobstones are described in CS chapter 10, but I don't see 'em... Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rja.carnegie at excite.com Mon Jun 4 23:32:16 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 23:32:16 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Figg and JKR's Comments (was Re: Mrs. Figg....rumors) In-Reply-To: <9fet3i+hln2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fh5q0+4sfi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20162 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > > > > > > > > Actually, JKR did NOT confirm that Mrs. Figg and Arabella Figg > are > > > one and the same, IMHO. The transcript of the Scholastic chat > from > > > last Oct. 16 goes like this: > > > > > > > She did confirm it in unambiquous terms in either the Blue Peter > > interview or the red nose day chat (script still not on web site) > > though. > > > > Florence > > I'm hoping that Arabella Figg (Mrs. Figg) is NOT a squib since I hope > she will be the next DADA professor (although I keep flashing on the > security chief in Star Trek TNG for some reason) Tasha Yar? No, no, she had a thing for DATA ;-) (If you meant that to be obviously what you meant, I'm sorry, but it wasn't. Or is it just me?) Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 23:35:20 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters In-Reply-To: <9ffgqn+m16v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010604233520.17081.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20163 I like that comment about Ron sacrificing himself, such as in the Chess scene. When this is put with the centaur's remarks on always the innocent are the first to suffer etc. (obvious paraphrase), and the fact that Cedric's wand core is unicorn, as is Ron's this seems possible. Are there any other hints out there that Ron may be the one to die? That is a very interesting observation about Cedric's and Ron's wand. If Ron does die I highly doubt it will be until the end of the book. JKR is very attached to his character that is why I say this. Ron seems a lot more susceptible to things for one thing he's not as observant as Hermione and Harry. He also has a much larger family...why is this a reason? Well, look at all the people he might have to sacrifice himself for, I believe he would for any of his family or Hermione and Harry. However, I still think that Ron will live. However he is the hero's best friend, and the hero's best friend well often times is always very susceptible. However, not everyone is going to die...this isn't a tragedy I'm sure. I believe it will have a happy ending, leaving many of the characters..including some that we still love and care about. But the chessboard thing has made me really think about the possibility of him dying much more...I hope not though, cuz Ron is one of my favorite characters. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jun 5 00:05:30 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:05:30 -0000 Subject: Ron's wand Re: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters In-Reply-To: <20010604233520.17081.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fh7ob+npt2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20164 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > I like that comment about Ron sacrificing himself, such as in the > Chess scene. When this is put with the centaur's remarks on always > the innocent are the first to suffer etc. (obvious paraphrase), and > the fact that Cedric's wand core is unicorn, as is Ron's this seems > possible. Are there any other hints out there that Ron may be the > one to die? > > That is a very interesting observation about Cedric's and Ron's wand. If Ron does die I highly doubt it will be until the end of the book. JKR is very attached to his character that is why I say this. Ron seems a lot more susceptible to things for one thing he's not as observant as Hermione and Harry. He also has a much larger family...why is this a reason? Well, look at all the people he might have to sacrifice himself for, I believe he would for any of his family or Hermione and Harry. However, I still think that Ron will live. However he is the hero's best friend, and the hero's best friend well often times is always very susceptible. However, not everyone is going to die...this isn't a tragedy I'm sure. I believe it will have a happy ending, leaving many of the characters..including some that we still love and care about. But the chessboard thing has made me really think about the possibility of him dying much more...I hope not though, cuz Ron is one of my favorite characters. > Sorry for using up a message but my books are on-loan right now. Wasn't it the wand that Ron had in SS/PS and CoS that had the unicorn's hair? I seem to remember something that the wood was cracked in some places and exposed the unicorn's hair. That was Charlie's old wand, right? Then Ron got a new wand in PoA, did that wand have a unicorn hair core too, I can't remember if it did or not? Milz (who's lost without her books) From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 00:06:15 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:06:15 -0000 Subject: Homorphus In-Reply-To: <3B1B0025.8FE0139B@texas.net> Message-ID: <9fh7pn+4t5s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20165 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > dasienko at e... wrote: > > > [I speculate that] the [Homorphus anti-werewolf-curse] spell > > didn't work on Remus because he is NOT HOMO-Sapiens, he is > > WIZARD SAPIENS. Homo eerier? > Wizards are not a different species. They aren't even, biologically > speaking, a different race. Not even our "races" are different > races. An example of different races would be (in one interpretation > of the human family tree) Homo sapiens sapiens (us) and Homo sapiens > neanderthalensis (them other guys with the funny lookin' heads). But > it's not even agreed whether *they* were a race of our species or a > species of their own. > Point being, such truly different hominids may not be different > enough to be considered another species. So wizards certainly > aren't. > > Wizarding ability is just that--an ability--that apparently usually > breeds true to at least some degree, since Squibs are rare, and > which is apparently very recessive in Muggles but which can appear > as a trait. Any charm, spell, hex, potion, etc., that works on a > wizard should work on a Muggle. Or so I think. I agree with most of that - I frankly suspect that "species" is more a concept of human science than a law of nature, but I don't want to apply that idea to wizards. Species diverge, but the point at which two branches of a species become two separate species is, I propose, an arbitrarily drawn line. I don't want to offend anyone, but I hear that it's a fact that most individual conjunctions between sets of human genes aren't successful. In case you're wondering, this isn't my race theory either - I don't have one of those. But I still like the can't-cure-wizards idea, but not for the semantic "homorphus / homo sapiens" argument. Wizards are different from Muggles in some physical ways - notably, you can drop a young wizard out of a window, or off a Quidditch broom, and it seems to me they'll be much less badly hurt than a Muggle in a similar situation. I think they're physically tougher, more resistant. And I don't think I've seen any of them get sick (up to POA) - including Remus Lupin, of course, if you _don't_ count the werewolf curse. Now, is anyone familiar with a comicbook character named Lobo? Not particularly attractive, at least in his original form, he has an innate ability to resist, become immune to - actually, almost anything. Recently, he was subjected to a magical spell that also turned Superman, Batman, and the rest of the Super Friends into children and teenagers - and Lobo became immune to the magic that was used, so he couldn't be turned back into an adult. Actually, this is about the first time I saw the guy, so I may have misunderstood his special thing. Where I'm going with this is to suggest that when a wizard gets a chronic curse like werewolfism, it's liable to affect his wizardly immune system so that the curse becomes natural to him, and his body will resist attempts to undo it. Another possible explanation - not necessarily separate from this one - is that perhaps the Homorphus Charm is another recent invention, and also only works on recent werewolves. So it might not have been available as a cure for Remus Lupin when he was bitten, and now it's too late. Now all I need is a way to mention Lobo's favourite T.V. show, which is apparently an adventure drama called _Wendy the Werewolf Stalker_. Okay, done. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jun 5 00:12:34 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:12:34 -0000 Subject: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <025701c0ed35$bcd3a350$5772023e@shasta> Message-ID: <9fh85i+erse@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20166 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" wrote: > Do you all think Rowling's world is utterly different in this respect, and > that muggles are simply diminished wizards? Interesting....so essentially Muggles could just be Squibs who have lost their magical cultural heritage. That would explain the presence of Muggle-borns. Milz From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 00:20:02 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:20:02 -0000 Subject: Harry/Henry Potter and Harry/Henry V In-Reply-To: <9ffgae+arqa@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fh8ji+uio5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20167 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > > > Well, that immediately got me thinking that perhaps > > > Harry isn't a Harold at all, but a Henry > > > > IIRC JKR said in an interview that Harry's name (what I call "birth > > certificate name") is Harry, not Harold or Henry or Harrison. > > > > I associated Harry's name with the battle cry "For England, Harry, > > and St. George", which my high school english teacher told me was > > still used in WWII even tho' it started with the Henrys you cite in > > the middle ages. > > I am surprised that I haven't thought about this before, as I did my > final year dissertation on Henry V. It was used in WW2 - in fact, > Olivier's Henry V was the first film to be filmed in colour in the > UK - and one of the reasons for this was to raise morale during WW2. > > I am not sure that the parrallel works though. I just can't see our > Harry as the irresponsible, fun loving Prince Hal which is portrayed > in Henry IV Part 1. Harry, for me, has a great sense of > responsibility. He also doesn't have the father/son issues of Prince > Hal. I also don't see Harry having the kind of friends such as > Falstaff, Bardolph et al. Prince Hal makes a conscious decision to > shoulder his responsibilies and in doing so moves away from the > friends of his youth. I just can't see Harry needing to make that > decision. IMO, their psyches and the issues they have to deal with > are very different. I'm not familiar enough with _Henry IV_ - which isn't exactly history, not that that matters - but the comparison partly works for me. Harry Potter does know how to have a good time - Quidditch, Hogsmeade (in POA, and he's firmly told off by Lupin) - and so do Ron and Hermione. Harry and Ron forget about Buckbeak in POA, when their help could be useful. And Harry may have problems to come with one or more of his father-figures - he's still younger than Hal at the moment, isn't he? I don't think he'll have to give up his friends, though - but he might have to give up Quidditch, for a greater battlefield. Let me place an early hypothetical bet on the battle against Voldemort being won on - or, rather, some dozens of feet above - the Quidditch pitch of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 00:24:44 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:24:44 -0000 Subject: I don't get it In-Reply-To: <9fgu7n+najr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fh8sc+h92o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20168 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" wrote: > Ok, so I could be the moron of the group, or I just missed this > particular discussion but ... > > How does everyone know about Lupin based on his name? > > I really don't get it! I guess it helps to know that one meaning of "lupine" is "characteristic of or resembling a wolf". Latin for wolf is "lupus", but in fact, the Indo-European root of the word, "*wlkwo", is actually reflected in all of the wolf roots in English, viz., Indo-European *wlkwo" --> Germanic "wulf" --> wolf, aardwolf, wolfram, werewolf. Latin "lupo" --> lobo, lupine, lupus, robal, loup-garou Greek "lukos" --> lycanthrope, lycopodium, alyssum Lycanthrope is, of course, from Greek roots for wolf and man ("lukos" + "anthropos"), just as werewolf ("wer" + "wolf") is in English. ["Wer" is related to "world" and the Latin "vir".] In turn, Remus is the mythological brother of Romulus. Co-founders of the city of Rome in myth, they were raised by a she-wolf. ....Craig From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 00:25:08 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:25:08 -0000 Subject: Shrek and the HP Trailer! In-Reply-To: <000201c0ecef$9fd43f80$0f9674d5@PoorClares> Message-ID: <9fh8t4+uirv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20169 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lumen" wrote: > Well, for all those who love the trailer: Hurry to win your own > Trailer Screen Saver... If you don't mind, I think I may just save myself for the actual movie ;-) Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 00:27:46 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:27:46 -0000 Subject: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters In-Reply-To: <9ffgqn+m16v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fh922+nes2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20170 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > Is Colin Creevey definitely 100% Muggle born? We only hear > mention of his father, the milkman - what happened to his mother? > Perhaps she was a witch, and died before she had decided to tell > her husband that she, and possibly their children, were magical > people. I either missed that or haven't got that far, but if Colin's father is the milkman, perhaps Mrs Creevey's husband doesn't know anything about it :-) Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 00:36:08 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:36:08 -0000 Subject: Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <20010604195253.3789.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fh9ho+gkbd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20171 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > > > 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at > > Hermione than is Harry, even in the Firebolt > > Fuss. Why is this? > > > > > > You know why. Extremely relieved that Hermione is > > okay after the basilisk is killed, always first to > > attack Malfoy for calling her a Mudblood...who wants > > > a house falling on his/her head anyway? > > > > > Can you explain this bit about the house falling on > > heads? I may be > > being particularly dim today, but the reference has > > really eluded me. > > > > Catherine > > > > First a disclaimer: I'm not a shipper of any kind. > But given that JKR herself has said that there's > something going on between Ron and Hermione that Ron > is not hip to yet, I was trying in an oblique way (not > to get the ire up of H/H shippers, as another person > already said) to say that it's because of his feelings > for her. > > Again: I'm not a shipper! H/H shippers: Don't freak > out! So (puzzled) the Wicked Witch of the East was a Ron-Hermione shipper? Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 00:44:57 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:44:57 -0000 Subject: Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <20010604164238.16645.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fha29+92pv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20172 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > > 6. Put on your thinking caps now. Which is a worse > > fate: death, or the dementor's kiss? Why? > > > Dementor's kiss. At least, if dead, you stand a > chance at becoming a ghost and still having something > of a social life (even if you can't join the Headless > Hunt). I hadn't thought of that! Death can be a great career move! Arguably it wasn't for Professor Binns, but at least he now has incontestable tenure. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 00:57:49 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumbledore's House? In-Reply-To: <9fglge+o5l3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010605005749.41675.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20173 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., banjoken at o... wrote: > > Wasn't it mentioned somewhere in one of the books > that Dumbledore > was > > in Gryffindor? Soemthing tells me it was on the > Hogwarts Express in > > PS/SS. I know Ron gave Harry the chocolate frog > card of Dumbledore, > > and I think Harry asked what house Dumbledore was > in. Relax, you're not carzy. :) Hermione says, "I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best; I hear Dumbledore himself was in it." on the Hogwarts Express in "Platform Nine and Three-Quarters". Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From priscilla at theninemuses.net Tue Jun 5 01:23:19 2001 From: priscilla at theninemuses.net (Priscilla Spencer) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:23:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter Bug Message-ID: <00cb01c0ed5e$1b46afe0$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> No: HPFGUIDX 20174 Actually, when Hermione spills the beans to Harry and Ron (p. 727 US ed, I can't find my UK copy), she specified that Rita is an unregistered Animagus. However, you do bring up an interesting point. Why would Hermione need to go to the library? Thoughts? Priscilla Spencer http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/ -----Original Message----- From: Stephanie Roark Keener To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 04, 2001 6:20 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter Bug On the subject that Rita Skeeter is an unregistered animagus, which people keep mentioning from time to time: Actually, I'm pretty sure she is registered. Paraphrasing from Ch. 31 (p.614, U.S.) of GoF, Hermione is tring to figure out how Rita (that cow!) is listening in AND getting past Moody's eye, when she gets a dreamy look and then says, "I think I've got it...just give me two seconds in the library to check it out." I assume that she is going to the library to check the animagi list. After all, it's been a year (maybe more) since she looked up McGonagall, and she proabably didn't pay any attention to the name Rita Skeeter the last time, considering that she didn't know who Rita Skeeter (that cow!) was at the time. Stephanie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Establish yourself online! Get a domain for your web site! www. .com _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 01:30:53 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 18:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rita Skeeter Bug In-Reply-To: <9fh52m+s7ou@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010605013053.49504.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20175 --- Stephanie Roark Keener wrote: > On the subject that Rita Skeeter is an unregistered > animagus, which > people keep mentioning from time to time: > > Actually, I'm pretty sure she is registered. Actually, Hermione says at the very beginning of the GOF explanation that Rita is "an unregistered Animagus". Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From catherinesmith4 at home.com Tue Jun 5 01:09:55 2001 From: catherinesmith4 at home.com (Catherine Smith) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 18:09:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters References: <9ffgqn+m16v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00ab01c0ed5c$3c4e1c20$e7a4b118@phnx2.az.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20176 Hi. Hope I get this right--first time I've ever posted anything anywhere. My name's Catherine (also) and I just joined the group. Something struck my about Colin Creevy and I want to know if I'm off in left field. (If I get the form wrong, please forgive me) >> . I believe that if anyone in Harry's circle > turns against > > him, it'll be someone like Colin Creevy. > > > > Jami > > > Why someone like Colin Creevey? I think it would have to be the > unwitting pawn thing, because I can't see him deliberately turning > against Harry. I know that at the moment he is annoyingly hero- > worshipping Harry (which Harry does put up with, without being too > rude and hurting his feelings) but I can't see this ending unless > Harry does something which Colin will react badly to. Also, Colin is > unlikely to join the dark side - does Voldemort accept Muggle > borns? I can't see this. . > > Catherine > Does anyone else see the similarities between Colin Creevy with the trio of Harry, Hermione, and Ron and Peter Pettigrew with the trio of Remus, James and Sirius? I can definitely see history repeating itself and Colin betraying them to Voldemort. Regarding whether or not Voldemort would accept muggle-borns, if it suited his aims, I have no doubt he would. Catherine (also) > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From priscilla at theninemuses.net Tue Jun 5 01:33:12 2001 From: priscilla at theninemuses.net (Priscilla Spencer) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:33:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's wand Re: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters Message-ID: <00e901c0ed5f$7c9528c0$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> No: HPFGUIDX 20177 Both of Ron's wands have had Unicorn tail hair. His second was made of willow (like Lily's) and 14 inches, the second-longest wand mentioned in the series. The longest being, of course, Hagrid's. Priscilla Spencer http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/ -----Original Message----- From: Milz To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 04, 2001 7:05 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's wand Re: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > I like that comment about Ron sacrificing himself, such as in the > Chess scene. When this is put with the centaur's remarks on always > the innocent are the first to suffer etc. (obvious paraphrase), and > the fact that Cedric's wand core is unicorn, as is Ron's this seems > possible. Are there any other hints out there that Ron may be the > one to die? > > That is a very interesting observation about Cedric's and Ron's wand. If Ron does die I highly doubt it will be until the end of the book. JKR is very attached to his character that is why I say this. Ron seems a lot more susceptible to things for one thing he's not as observant as Hermione and Harry. He also has a much larger family...why is this a reason? Well, look at all the people he might have to sacrifice himself for, I believe he would for any of his family or Hermione and Harry. However, I still think that Ron will live. However he is the hero's best friend, and the hero's best friend well often times is always very susceptible. However, not everyone is going to die...this isn't a tragedy I'm sure. I believe it will have a happy ending, leaving many of the characters..including some that we still love and care about. But the chessboard thing has made me really think about the possibility of him dying much more...I hope not though, cuz Ron is one of my favorite characters. > Sorry for using up a message but my books are on-loan right now. Wasn't it the wand that Ron had in SS/PS and CoS that had the unicorn's hair? I seem to remember something that the wood was cracked in some places and exposed the unicorn's hair. That was Charlie's old wand, right? Then Ron got a new wand in PoA, did that wand have a unicorn hair core too, I can't remember if it did or not? Milz (who's lost without her books) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 02:16:54 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:16:54 -0000 Subject: Pretty Fly (for that Snape Guy) [filk] In-Reply-To: <9fgigh+4i79@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fhfem+insk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20178 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mags" wrote: > > Snape Lovers, this is for you! > > > > Pretty Fly (for that Snape Guy) > > (to the tune of 'Pretty Fly for a White Guy' by The Offspring) > > > > Normally filks make my skull itch but this one had me fighting > not to burst into hysterical laughter at work! > > thank you for a good, good laugh! Seconded - very, very good, especially the action! May I share my theory for _Order of the Phoenix_? The phoenix's song is reputed to be magical; I think Harry, Fawkes, and the gang are going to form a rock band and play in Quidditch stadia around Europe. And if Colin and Ginny want to have a go at Blink 182's _All The Small Things_, that is fine by me. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 02:21:55 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:21:55 -0000 Subject: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters In-Reply-To: <9fgkhh+o1f7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fhfo3+bs8d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20179 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 6/3/2001 9:59:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > ilovbrian_99 at y... writes: > > > > << I have my thoughts that very few of the characters will survive > the > > series. > > I disagree. I think most will be affected in some big way, but not > all that many killed outright. Actually now I've written the rest of > this post I've changed my mind. Maybe there will be quite alot of > fatalities. Snip detailed speculation but there are a whole lot of Weasleys, we could lose a few of /them/ without noticing much :-S Now, don't tell me that's a horrible, horrible thing to say - I know it is. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 02:31:18 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:31:18 -0000 Subject: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fgpbp+8soh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fhg9m+3qgv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20180 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > > 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, > > Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should > > it have been more? less? detention? > > I agree with Jamieson - I'd have expelled him. Perhaps not, but such > tactics could at least have got Slytherin disqualified from the > Quidditch Tournament that year. Let's be fair. All they did was to dress up in a scary costume. How wrong is that, really? Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From JamiDeise at aol.com Tue Jun 5 02:34:51 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:34:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter Bug Message-ID: <21.ca0e263.284d9f4b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20181 In a message dated 6/4/2001 7:24:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sdrk1 at yahoo.com writes: << Actually, I'm pretty sure she is registered. Paraphrasing from Ch. 31 (p.614, U.S.) of GoF, Hermione is tring to figure out how Rita (that cow!) is listening in AND getting past Moody's eye, when she gets a dreamy look and then says, "I think I've got it...just give me two seconds in the library to check it out." I assume that she is going to the library to check the animagi list. After all, it's been a year (maybe more) since she looked up McGonagall, and she proabably didn't pay any attention to the name Rita Skeeter the last time, considering that she didn't know who Rita Skeeter (that cow!) was at the time. >> I got the impression that she was making sure Rita *wasn't* registered. Just knowing Rita was an animagus wouldn't be enough to "get her." Jami From JamiDeise at aol.com Tue Jun 5 02:34:50 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:34:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Turning to the Dark Side Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20182 In a message dated 6/4/2001 6:48:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, meboriqua at aol.com writes: << I am talking about the characters who choose to side with Voldie and his supporters, perform the Cruciatius Curse, turn their noses up at Muggle-borns and so on, which is a drastic thing to do, IMO. >> Yeah, I think it's pretty drastic too! Since Wormtail is the only character we know who has betrayed his friends and gone over to the dark side, let's take a look at his characteristics as an example of what it might take. According to McGonagall's recollections in PoA, he wasn't very good at magic, he openly idolized Lupin, James and Sirius, to the point of following them around like a little puppy dog, he was little and fat. Later in PoA, he whines that Voldemort was so powerful, he had no choice, he would have killed him -- to which Sirius rightly sneered that he should have died rather than betray his friends. So what happened in between the time he was a fat little puppy dog at Hogwarts, to his ultimate betrayal? Lily and James married and had Harry ... Sirius was best man and Harry's godfather. Somehow, the two became very important in the fight against Voldemort. Lupin was still tight with them as well. Perhaps Peter had grown weary of never being good enough as his friends. He saw them become powerful, successful, find love ... and slowly his hero-worship turned to jealousy and hate. So he decided to trump them the only way he could ... proving that he, Peter Pettigrew, smarter than any of them ever thought. So who among Harry's circle could fall into this trap? I don't think it's anyone we know very well at this point. That's why I think it could be someone like Colin ... all we really know about him is how much he worships Harry. Jami From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 02:36:51 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:36:51 -0000 Subject: I don't get it In-Reply-To: <20010604231059.61526.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fhgk3+hlr9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20183 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > > Maybe JKR will > give Remus Lupin a twin brother Romulus. Or maybe > that would be too precious. > > Of course, he received his name at birth and was then > bitten by a werewolf as a child. Perhaps his parents > should have thought better of the name they gave him. > If ever someone's destiny were in his name... Rather bad luck for Virginia Weasley, too, then. :-) (Have we had a Prospero yet?) But Neville Longbottom is a short - Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From lj2d30 at gateway.net Tue Jun 5 02:46:53 2001 From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:46:53 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter Bug In-Reply-To: <00cb01c0ed5e$1b46afe0$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> Message-ID: <9fhh6t+89tp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20184 Priscilla Spencer wrote: > Actually, when Hermione spills the beans to Harry and Ron (p. 727 US ed, I can't find my UK copy), she specified that Rita is an unregistered Animagus. However, you do bring up an interesting point. Why would Hermione need to go to the library? Thoughts? I think she ran to the library to see if Skeeter were listed. When Hermione saw that Skeeter's name was not among the 7 registered, she knew. Trina From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 02:48:54 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:48:54 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter Bug In-Reply-To: <20010605013053.49504.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fhham+2og3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20185 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea wrote: > --- Stephanie Roark Keener wrote: > > On the subject that Rita Skeeter is an unregistered > > animagus, which > > people keep mentioning from time to time: > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure she is registered. > > Actually, Hermione says at the very beginning of the > GOF explanation that Rita is "an unregistered > Animagus". The quill (which I haven't got to yet) doesn't need you to register, for one thing. So maybe there's a Register of Unregistered Animagi. (Hermione says in PS that many wizards aren't strong on logic...) Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 02:58:06 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:58:06 -0000 Subject: Snape and vampirism In-Reply-To: <000001c0ed38$fb44de80$d8094a42@Dexter> Message-ID: <9fhhru+9531@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20186 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jennye & Michael Woolf" wrote: > First off, I want to introduce myself to the list since this is my first > posting. My name is Jennye, I am 29, married and have a baby who doesn't yet > appreciate HP, but I am sure he will! > > That said, I want to jump in on this thread. I had just been following it > and was on the Snape-is-not-a-vampire side when I was rereading PoA. After > Snape assigned the werewolf essay to the DADA class to try to get the class > to realize that Lupin was a werewolf, Lupin later assigned a vampire essay > to the class (granted it was a few months later, but still...) It was the > only essay that they discussed at length that they had to do for Lupin, > *and* Lupin made a point of mentioning that he was having the students write > the vampire essay when he rescued Harry and Ron from Snape's office when > Snape found the Marauder's Map on Harry. > > Just my 2 Knuts on the subject. > > Jennye That's good spotting! I'd missed that completely. Admittedly, I've missed a lot of things that are out in plain sight. Speed reading, I'm afraid. I'm not sure that I want Snape to be a vampire, though. I'm still dodging detailed discussion of GoF until I get my own copy, but I've picked up that it's revealed that he has - well, a criminal record, let's say - and is a rather more sympathetic character than he seems to be at first (or so some people think). I feel that that's enough trouble for one character to have to cope with, without craving the blood of his students all the time as well. That's assuming that being a vampire is inconvenient in daily life, which might not be the case once JKR has worked over the concept. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From andromache815 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 01:57:47 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:57:47 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione, Dueling References: <20010604192633.75746.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20187 Amy: > I think Hermione stands up to intimidation pretty well. Holding > Lucius's stare at the QWC, keeping on with SPEW when most of her > classmates (including her best friends) think it's laughable, > withstanding the ridicule that came along with the Daily > Prophet/Witch Weekly articles, taking on Rita Skeeter . . . What do > you see that makes you think she's easily intimidated? You have excellent points. I could never have kept up with SPEW. However, she ought to have asked the house-elves what they thought. Her intentions were good, but I suppose she always has a "wiser-than-though" attitude. As far as the ridicule from the Rita Skeeter article goes, I think she could take that because she knew it was a lie. I'm not sure what was so brave about catching Rita. I personally would have killed her. Well, maybe I wouldn't if I knew she was human. Then again, I did want Pettigrew dead. Amber: I mean, who else would take on tons of extra classes and live longer than 24 hour days? Definitely not me. Amber: In summary, Hermione is a powerhouse of will; nobody get in her way, she'll mow you down! Agreed. Sometimes, she's too stubborn, to the point of disregarding her friends' feelings. What I wonder is why she didn't try to clear her name with Molly, and why she never confronts Snape on his horrible treatment of her and other Gryffs. I'm kinda hoping for a confrontation between the two of them in a later book. Also, she and McGonagall both seem afraid to say "Voldemort," and I say Voldy has an advantage over them if they fear him. Then again, I'd probably fear him, too, unless, like Sirius and Lupin, I had some reason to be upset with him, and my anger overrode all rational thought. In short, you guys are right that she has moral courage, to stand up for ridiculous ideas. However, I believe she's afraid of failure, and she's afraid of being wrong, and so, whenever she is, she doesn't admit it. Her self-worth seems to depend on her cleverness, which could work against her. On another topic, have any of you noticed that there are almost no scenes with women duelling? I know there was the dueling club scene, but then, that seemed to have devolved more or less into a cat fight. I want to see something where Hermione actually gets to show some of *her* power, instead of Harry and Ron always doing the fighting. Vicky From andromache815 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 02:47:53 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:47:53 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 13 Summary References: <9fgfpc+88k2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20188 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? He most likely did see the Grim. As for not telling Ron, I wouldn't, either, if my friend believed in it as much as Ron did. 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they just a waste of pages? At the risk of incurring the wrath of all the Quidditch lovers here, I say, for the most part, i.e., the descriptions of the matches are a waste of pages. However, they often contain important bits of the plot, so I tolerate them. I hate sports in general, so of course, I wouldn't like this. 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it have been more? less? detention? It should have been 50 points each. Either that, or twenty-five points and a detention. I don't think it was a crime worthy of expulsion, however, because Harry did defend himself against it. 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy and gang? Probably the full stag, as Lupin had commented on it after the match. 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the others will forget he *is* Head Boy? Percy has a right to be proud of his status. However, pinning the badge to his pajamas was somewhat obsessive. He annoys me, personally. 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? Brave for owning up to his mistake and getting yelled at. Foolish for leaving those passwords around in the first place. Good discussion questions, BTW. Vicky From Lindsay at stirton.net Tue Jun 5 03:36:35 2001 From: Lindsay at stirton.net (Lindsay Stirton) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 02:19:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter Bug In-Reply-To: <00cb01c0ed5e$1b46afe0$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> Message-ID: <20AC.1643%lindsay@stirton.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20189 > Actually, when Hermione spills the beans to Harry and Ron (p. 727 US ed, I > can't find my UK copy), she specified that Rita is an unregistered Animagus. > However, you do bring up an interesting point. Why would Hermione need to go > to the library? Thoughts? Well, naturally she would have to check the Animagi Register, to see whether she was registered. Only if she was unregistered would she be breaking the law. Lindsay Stirton From bohners at pobox.com Tue Jun 5 03:49:28 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 23:49:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I don't get it References: <9fhgk3+hlr9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <015d01c0ed72$d84f3c60$b339acce@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20190 > > If ever someone's destiny were in his name... > Rather bad luck for Virginia Weasley, too, then. :-) Actually, we don't know her name is Virginia, do we? It could just as easily be Genevieve. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 05:14:38 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 01:14:38 -0400 Subject: Map again - Lack of TV - PA 12/13 questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20191 Allyse wrote: >An oft mentioned theory is that only a fellow Marauder can see MWPP on the >map, which is why Lupin was able to see Wormtail; but the counter argument >is that Snape was able to see Moony when he found the map on Lupin's desk. > >I just wondered if anyone had advanced the theory to include the person who >first *activated* the map. >Then, when Snape came into the office with the potion and discovered the >map, Lupin would be visible, since it was Lupin himself who activitated. You are so smart! That makes perfect sense. (Send it to Jo so she'll have a ready answer when some 9-year-old asks her how come no one ever noticed Peter before.) Catherine wrote: >do all the Muggleborn children have withdrawals from TV when they go to Hogwarts? Nope, 'cause being at Hogwarts is way better than anything TV has to offer. That's why supposedly hyperactive, TV-addicted boys will spend three days straight reading a 700-page book about it, foregoing TV altogether. >4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. >Pretend this is the first time you've read PoA) Well, if you've done your werewolf essay it is. I'm not sure when I became sure that Lupin was a werewolf--I swear, when I read OoP I'm going to make running notes so I can look back and see what I theorized when--but I think I got it by this point in the story. I didn't get that his Boggart turned into the moon, though. I thought it really was a crystal ball and that he didn't like them because someone looking into one would know what he was . . . at least I think that's what I thought. I also strongly suspected that he =was= helping Sirius into the castle, so so much for my prescience. Jamieson wrote: >It should have been a lot more. I think Malfoy should have been expelled. >::hides from those who are now booing him at the thought of having Malfoy >gone:: Tell you what. We'll make you and the booers happy by keeping Malfoy at Hogwarts, but adding to his punishment that he must wear painfully tight leather trousers at all times. BTW, the points system =is= very arbitrary; it seems to depend more on the mood of the teacher than anything else. Coming soon to a Lexicon near you: a complete list of all cases of points being added or subtracted so you can judge for yourself: is McGonagall fairer than Snape? is Snape harder on Gryffindors than on any other students? and what the heck is Percy's problem? Indigo wrote: >Add to that that his other best friend is a know-it-all who takes *every* >opportunity to prove she's smart and the boys are dumb and couldn't >possibly form a coherent thought without her. >Add to *that* that not only has Hermione showed zero respect for Ron's >feelings, she has now showed zero respect for Harry's feelings, These are surely Ron's views, at times at least, but I respectfully submit that he needs to get a grip. Hermione may be a know-it-all, but she doesn't think the boys are dumb and by PoA, she seldom treats them as if they are. The "isn't it obvious?" about what's wrong with Lupin really stands out, in fact (and I don't much blame her for being snippy at that point since they've been giving her the silent treatment for some weeks). As for showing zero respect for Harry's feelings: Hermione respects Harry's feelings, not to mention his life; it's Harry who isn't taking the danger to himself seriously. If I were Hermione or Ron, I'd be worried that he had a death wish at this point. He's just that week learned that Black, for all intents and purposes, murdered his parents; he knows Black has been in the castle; and he still isn't taking Black's threat against his life seriously. Ron is being even more irresponsible not to try to rein Harry in (Harry's own unwillingness to face facts is more understandable to me). I hand it to Hermione for being the only one of the three mature enough to look objectively at this gift. Her only misstep, IMO, is that she should have said exactly what she was thinking when she first saw the Firebolt: not just "I don't think you should ride it" but "I think Black sent it to you." That would at least have given Harry the opportunity to weigh her objections. >And she's convinced herself that it's instinct for a cat to chase a rat. Is this something one has to convince oneself of? Sounds like plain truth to me. I'm confused, Indigo--aren't you an R/Her? How can you want to see R/H if you love Ron and can't stand Hermione? Amy Z who loves 'em both to death -------------------------------------------------------------- "Damn it, all this eye-twinkling is making my pupils itch." --Dumbledore, "The Magical Mystika Tour," Rave www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=93315 -------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From floridian127 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 05:30:42 2001 From: floridian127 at yahoo.com (floridian127 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 05:30:42 -0000 Subject: MM's Bathroom Location / Thanks Message-ID: <9fhqq2+se20@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20192 In CoS Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is stated to be on the first floor. Then when H/H/R run up the stairs and find Mrs Norris petrified they were on the second floor. They past the feast in the great hall, rounded the first floor and leaped up steps to the next floor [not exact]. Later it is on the first floor again. Write off as incorrect mention or moving staircase? I checked lexicon and Steve has it on the second floor. http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_floors.html OT: I have gotten rain after posting message 19882 I know none of you kind Witches and Wizards would break magic law and affect the weather.[wink] But I am sure some of you wanted to, and for that I am grateful. We still need plenty more.[ChOiUnGtH] Thanks, Floridian. From andromache815 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 06:12:20 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:12:20 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How are wizards named? (was I don't get it) References: <20010604231059.61526.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20193 Barbara: Of course, he received his name at birth and was then bitten by a werewolf as a child. Perhaps his parents should have thought better of the name they gave him. If ever someone's destiny were in his name... I've noticed that names often reflect the personalities of their owners. Could it be that wizarding parents name their children when they have a better idea of the child's personality? I know Voldy was named right away, but his mother was dying. But then, there's the problem of what to call children if they are babies, if they don't have a permanent name till childhood. This question comes to mind because I hear Native Americans do that. Children are given temporary names until more of their character is known, so they get a fitting name. Actually, I'm not sure if this is still practiced. I know it *was* a century or two ago. Vicky From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 06:28:57 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 06:28:57 -0000 Subject: MM's Bathroom Location / Thanks In-Reply-To: <9fhqq2+se20@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fhu79+csv6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20194 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., floridian127 at y... wrote: > In CoS Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is stated to be on the > first floor. Then when H/H/R run up the stairs and find > Mrs Norris petrified they were on the second floor. They > past the feast in the great hall, rounded the first floor > and leaped up steps to the next floor [not exact]. Later > it is on the first floor again. > > Write off as incorrect mention or moving staircase? > > I checked lexicon and Steve has it on the second floor. > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_floors.html Steve does describe it as out of order... :-) Lucky Myrtle has a maisonette bathroom? Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From rja.carnegie at excite.com Tue Jun 5 06:49:16 2001 From: rja.carnegie at excite.com (rja.carnegie at excite.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 06:49:16 -0000 Subject: How are wizards named? (was I don't get it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fhvdc+mhot@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20195 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" wrote: > Barbara: Of course, he received his name at birth and was then bitten by a > werewolf as a child. Perhaps his parents should have thought better of the > name they gave him. > If ever someone's destiny were in his name... > > I've noticed that names often reflect the personalities of their owners. > Could it be that wizarding parents name their children when they have a > better idea of the child's personality? I know Voldy was named right away, > but his mother was dying. But then, there's the problem of what to call > children if they are babies, if they don't have a permanent name till > childhood. This question comes to mind because I hear Native Americans do > that. Children are given temporary names until more of their character is > known, so they get a fitting name. Actually, I'm not sure if this is still > practiced. I know it *was* a century or two ago. Someone told me there were 500 "nations" of Native Americans with, presumably, various customs. Isn't there some business of being crucified with hooks - But you're right that we don't know for sure how _some_ wizarding families name their children. I say "some" because the Weasleys, for one, named at least Ginny _before_ she was old enough to go to Hogwarts after Charlie, Bill, Percy, Fred, George, and Ron. Is that the lot? And what's the theme? Charles, William and George were kings of the United Kingdom (let's leave it at that); Frederick is a royal name elsewhere; if it _is_ Virginia, that was named after Queen Elizabeth's most dubious virtue (small pun); Ronald Reagan was president of the U.S.; Percy, Percival, um, Blackadder's sidekick - blame the milkman, perhaps. And the father of them all is - gosh, Arthur! And so that is the secret of book 7 - Ron Weasley's dad is revealed to be King Arthur of Britain. (Or not.) Remus Lupin may, indeed, be from another country and another culture, where wizard children's names are more meaningful. Only Hogwarts in Britain, under Dumbledore, would have him. If Lupin is the patronymic (otherwise he'd be Professor Remus), well that's just bad luck. If it _is_ a patronymic and not just an adjective. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! (well, yes, it is an adjective, but - ) From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 07:31:17 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 00:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fgfpc+88k2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010605073117.83526.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20196 1. Why does Hermione not exhibit the least bit of sympathy for Ron on the loss of Scabbers? Does Ron just have it in for Crookshanks because he jumped on his head in Diagon Alley? The only reason that I can find that Hermione is not really showing much sympathy for Ron is that she is just over stressed and on the verge of a mental breakdown. Everything that is coming out of every persons mouth is starting to get on her nerves and here is Ron attacking the one thing that isn't getting on her nerves becaue he can't talk! Not that I am condoning Hermione's actions at all, nor Ron. Ron has it in for a lot of things right now. He has a lot of pent out anger (which has been discussed before) and Crookshanks is just an easy target. Has anyone else ever noticed that Ron and Hermione rarely ever just talk, they are always bickering of sorts? I'm not sure but eventually the lack of communication between those 2 is going to cause major problems, it already has. 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? He saw Sirius not the grim. He didn't want Ron to worry much, and he also didn't want him to think he was crazy, and Harry thought he was crazy at that point. 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they just a waste of pages? NO, I think they make a wonderful diversion from the actual story, and sometimes things happen at the matches that are important to the story. However, sometimes I think they are repetitive. But for the most part I think they are well written and fun. 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it have been more? less? detention? Should have atleast been 50 points each, not just total and a detention. 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy and gang? 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the others will forget he *is* Head Boy? Percy has some pride issues going on, this is why I dislike him so much. He is soo full of himself. But maybe its some sort of nice little important/security thing for him. Kind of like me wearing my cross all the time as because I'm a Christian. 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? Both 8. How did Sirius Black get into the castle?I have no idea but it boils down to the Dementors not doing a very good job. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 08:15:24 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 01:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Turning to the Dark Side In-Reply-To: <9fgvtd+ov0b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010605081524.66099.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20197 Okay, My Percy speculation is what it is mere speculation. I think that I see a LOT of similarities between Voldie's deatheaters and the Hitler's Nazi's. If we are going on that level there seem to be two characters that come to my mind in the Weasley family that would be persuaded; Percy and Ron. Percy is obssessed with power and rules. I think that if faced with the decision between what is right and what is breaking the law, I think at first he would go with not breaking the law. He has so much to risk career wise. However, once he sees that career gains will not make him happy if he looses the all his family and friends. I don't know....it's just he idolizes people and sometime when you do that, you are more likely to be absentminded when they are making mistakes. Ron is another character that I'd be worried about. This is because Voldie and his deatheaters probably play on insecure, misunderstood, ignored people. I know this sounds silly but we could be looking a wormtail to some degree with Ron. Before you go throwing things at me hear me out, I think that Ron often does feel like a third wheel, even though he most certainly is not. I think that he seems overshadowed by his extremely skillful best friends Harry and Hermione. He is also overshadowed by his family. From this wonderful quidditch player, Charlie, to the head boys Bill and Percy, to the notorious troublemakers Fred and George. And Ginny is the only girl so I don't think he feels he has to compete with her as much. The only thing he is known for is Harry's best friend. Which is awesome but where is it really getting him. I think the glory and fame, and power of the dark side might seem appealing to Ron. Although, I hope and pray that Ron would never turn out like that..cuz he's my favorite character! Oh and I hope you all understand this post. I'm didn't get much sleep so I'm kind of rambeling. Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 5 08:39:30 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 08:39:30 -0000 Subject: SHIP H/H (Hermione/Hermione) - was Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fh1rg+7vib@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fi5s2+bfa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20198 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > One thing I've wondered about - why couldn't Hermione have used the > turner to dial up a few extra hours of naptime? Maybe she was being > too Type A to think of it (she would have never thought to use to > save Black and Buckbeak without Dumbledore's prompting). Or maybe, > just like meeting your past or future self, terrible things have > happened to wizards who overslept while time-turning! > and what would Parvati et al have made of two Hermiones in bed? David From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com Tue Jun 5 09:40:24 2001 From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle at bigpond.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:40:24 -0000 Subject: Turning to the Dark Side...OT sort of In-Reply-To: <9fgvtd+ov0b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fi9e8+98na@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20199 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > I've been reading postings that speculate about which characters will > "turn" to the Dark Side. Something about that is bothering me. > > What exactly does it take to "turn" to the Dark Side anyway? [snip] > --jenny from ravenclaw******************************** What bothers me is why it is referred to as the 'Dark Side', by the people on the 'dark side'. Why they wouldn't call it the 'good side, the sensible side, the practical side ? Rowena (who also has the same problem with Star Wars) From jenfold at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 10:31:37 2001 From: jenfold at yahoo.com (jenfold at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 10:31:37 -0000 Subject: Mottos In-Reply-To: <9fh46r+abdf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fice9+30np@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20200 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 6/3/2001 11:08:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... writes: > > > > << Slytherin: > > Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane > > mittam. (translated, I have a catapult - give me all your money or I'll fling > > an enormous rock at hour head - again, Henry Beard) > > >> > > > > wouldn't Slytherin's motto be in Parseltongue? hissssss hiss hisssssssss > > Good idea - but I think none of _them_, masters or students, can speak > Parseltongue either. Bit of a drawback, that. > > Given Salazar Slytherin's troubled relationship with the school, > how about "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me > as a member"? Bit long, though - still, they could inscribe it > lengthwise on their heraldic serpent. > > There's a musical instrument called the serpent, but "The note > depends very much on the embouchure" is as near to there as I want > to go :-) If that was their motto, it has the merit (as they might > see it) that when you find out what it means, it's too late. > > Is there a wizarding version of "All your base are belong to us"? > Or, plain and simple - but subtle - "Break a leg". > > "Snake eyes, you lose"? > > Robert Carnegie > Meretricious! How about "The end justifies the means." If Macheavelli had gone to Hogwarts he'd be a Slytherin. Jen From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Tue Jun 5 10:54:00 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 10:54:00 -0000 Subject: Turning to the Dark side/Destinies/Next DADA teacher Message-ID: <9fido8+141g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20201 Turning to the dark side. In my opinion this will come down to "choosing what is easy over what is right". Only the really evil gits will wander along to Lord Voldemort and swear allegience to him of their own volition; others will be blackmailed, tricked and bullied into helping the Dark cause and may or may not be actually recruited as Death Eaters. For instance: Ludo Bagman has a big Goblin problem and could easily be approached by say Malfoy who could suggest that he would get the goblins off his back in return for passing information from the ministry. Of course this assumes that Ludo is not already a Death Eater and that his disappearance after the third task was really him responding to Voldemorts summons. Percy's (and other nice guys) choices are likely to be more subtle. He would certainly be more strongly morally opposed to passing ministry info directly, but, being rule bound may follow instructions from infiltrators of the ministry without thinking. Or go down the route of Barty Crouch senior and (for career progression) ruthlessly implement dark methods in the fight against the dark side to the extent that he is no longer morally aware of the distinction between right and wrong. I really like the suggestion that Colin might parallel Petigrew and be tempted to the dark side by strong armed bully tactics. He could then be the insignificant bod that nobody suspects but later turns out bad. The reason I especially like the suggestion is that this leaves Neville for some nobler destiny. I'd like him to discover a herb with strong mind-curative properties (maybe Longbottom Leaf, which should be smoked - as in the Lord of the Rings). With this he could revive his parents and restore his own memory (and maybe that of the Armenian warlock who really knows how to perform the complex Homorphus charm that could cure Lupin). This would enable him to become Herbology professor (which has been rumoured), although I guess that would mean I should add Professor Sprout (another innocent Hufflepuff) to the killed-off possibilities. Someone was asking about who the next DADA teacher might be, and nobody has yet proposed Florence!! If it really was Snape she was kissing, she might know plenty about the Dark Arts. Just a wild guess though really. Florence From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 11:02:32 2001 From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 13:02:32 +0200 Subject: wizard-Muggle relations (was: JKR, Harry Potter, and the Nature of Evil) In-Reply-To: <991173128.2002.12027.l9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010605114001.00a13d90@rudjer.irb.hr> No: HPFGUIDX 20202 Apologies for posting this so late, but I've been trying to catch up. (Interesting things always happen when one is not around.) Snipped from David's great post (# 19670): >The root of this fear is the fragility of wizarding identity. They >believe, not without reason, that if they declare themselves to the >Muggles, they will be rejected and persecuted. To justify their >separation from the rest of humanity they try to give themselves a >separate identity as `purebloods' ? Fudge's `wizarding pride'. The >existence of wizards with Muggle parents however negates this, unless >they too can be characterised as `mudbloods' and excluded from the >community (represented in the books by Hogwarts). [...] >But none of this works. At bottom they know they *are* human. But >the cutting out of a separate `wizarding' identity that tries to deny >this causes them to fear their own magicality, and to characterise >unusual powers such as Parseltongue as dark. > >I believe that it is this uncertainty of identity that fuels wizard >prejudice, the devotion of the Death Eaters to Voldemort, and >ultimately the quest of Voldemort himself to be no longer human. > >I would suggest, therefore, that the essence of evil in Harry Potter >is to refuse to admit to being human, in the case of wizards, to >being a Muggle who happens to have some interesting and useful gifts. I think that David did an excellent job at identifying the underlying causes of evil in the wizarding society. What concerns me, though, is this feeling that most wizards really do regard Muggles as inferior to them. I do not know what events led to the passing of the International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy (though I can guess), but, IMO, wizards _today_ regard Muggles as people that can make trouble for the wizards but who are really not up to their standard. More of a nuisance than a danger, in fact. One reason for this could be that magical technology is superior to Muggle technology, and that Muggles really cannot ever learn how to master it. Having said all that, I'd better give examples. The most blatant one, IMHO, is the use of the Memory charm. In the two examples that this charm was used on wizards the casters had some illicit motive (Lockhart and Crouch Sr.). The possible exception could be Neville's case (I think that such scenario is believable), but those were not exactly normal circumstances either. However, the memory charm (which does have side effects) is routinely used on Muggles. I know that in some cases its use is probably inevitable, but I agree with list members (sorry, cannot credit) who, in a Lockhart related thread, said that the QWC Roberts episode upset them. They were Obliviating the poor man each time a wizard walked by in wrong clothes, tried to pay gold coins, or lit a fire with a wand. Half of these instances could have been avoided had the wizards exercised some care. (Bagman I don't even want to comment on). I'm not saying that every wizard should be forced to take Muggle studies, but some understanding of the different culture that surrounds them would be helpful (BTW, are there any Gryffindors in that class? Ron had to ask Justin about Hermione's attendance.) I could be making some logical fallacy here, but I can envision the way in which such climate could lead to some wizards adopting even more drastic opinions about Muggles (and to spinning-levitating charms). Vlatka- who apologizes if this came out as a rant _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From lumen_dei at freeler.nl Mon Jun 4 16:21:49 2001 From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 18:21:49 +0200 Subject: Hagrid in Slytherin??? & in defense of Slytherin and mankind in general References: <9fdemj+hit9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000a01c0edb0$323476e0$1ea474d5@PoorClares> No: HPFGUIDX 20203 Catherine wrote in reply to my speculation: I don't think that it's been mentioned in the books, but it has certainly come up in interviews and JKR has said that Hagrid was in Gryffindor. I was most perturbed to find that it could cross anyone's mind that Hagrid should belong in Slytherin. I just don't see what qualities he has which fits in there - for me, he has the qualities of a Gryffindor (bravery) and of Hufflepuff (unswavering loyalty and hardworking) and although, like Harry, he isn't averse to disregarding rules, he certainly isn't ambitious, and he would not do anything to attain his own selfish ends. His giant blood may come out in his rather bloodthirsty love of scary and dangerous creatures, but his almost killing Karkarof I put down to losing his temper, and not knowing his own strength. We don't look at Harry when he loses his temper, and say "Oh dear, lost his temper again, maybe he should belong in Slytherin." Likewise with Hermione when she slaps Draco across the face. It's just that Hagrid, being half-giant, probably has more to control - I don't think he intended to kill Karkarof - just shake him up a little. Finally, the giants may have an affinity with the Dark Side, but I don't think that it is said anywhere that they have any magical powers. Hagrid is not a pureblood wizard - he is half and half, and also he is only half human. The Slytherins pride themselves on being pureblood, therefore I can't see that a half giant would be acceptable to them, or sorted into their house. Catherine First let me thank those who assure me that JKR has said in at least one interview that Hagrid is in Gryffindor. Your word is good enough for me. It definitely is not in Book I; I just finished reading it through to check. I am, needless to say, happy that he is there for I do like him and like people I like to be in "my" house... That being said, I must go on to play the Devil's Advocate in regard to some remarks made about my theory: Melanie finds it humorous and Catherine is "perturbed". I'm beginning if I don't have some type of hex upon me, but here it goes point by point: 1) Hagrid is courageous. Well, so is Snape, one of the most courageous we seen so far. Draco is cowardly to be sure, but the Slytherins are not excluded from this gift. Neither is HufflePuff since Cedric was from that house. Courage is not exclusive; you have to have it in an outstanding degree. Whether his propensity for wrestling with trolls is real courage or just a lack of good judgment I will leave to those who dwell in Ravenclaw.... 2) "like Harry, he isn't averse to disregarding rules.." hmmm, but that was Dumbledore's line when at the end of CoS he is pointing out the similarities [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Jun 5 11:14:22 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 11:14:22 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter Bug In-Reply-To: <20010605013053.49504.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fieue+hvt3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20204 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea wrote: > --- Stephanie Roark Keener wrote: > > On the subject that Rita Skeeter is an unregistered > > animagus, which > > people keep mentioning from time to time: > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure she is registered. > > Actually, Hermione says at the very beginning of the > GOF explanation that Rita is "an unregistered > Animagus". > > > Andrea > Maybe Hermione went to the library to see if 'insects' were a type of transformation animagi could take? Up until then, we had only heard of Animagi turning into four legged critters. Indigo From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 11:17:43 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 04:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] MM's Bathroom Location / Thanks In-Reply-To: <9fhqq2+se20@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010605111743.93158.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20205 --- floridian127 at yahoo.com wrote: > In CoS Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is stated to be on the > first floor. Then when H/H/R run up the stairs and find > Mrs Norris petrified they were on the second floor. They > past the feast in the great hall, rounded the first floor > and leaped up steps to the next floor [not exact]. Later > it is on the first floor again. > > Write off as incorrect mention or moving staircase? The British (and maybe all Europeans, for all I know) refer to the ground floor and then start counting up from there. Thus "the first floor" would be "the second floor" if Hogwarts was in North America. As for petrified people/objects in different locations, I assumed that the basilisk moved around. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Jun 5 11:22:16 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 11:22:16 -0000 Subject: MM's Bathroom Location / Thanks In-Reply-To: <20010605111743.93158.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fifd8+kogs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20206 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich wrote: > --- floridian127 at y... wrote: > > In CoS Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is stated to be on the > > first floor. Then when H/H/R run up the stairs and find > > Mrs Norris petrified they were on the second floor. They > > past the feast in the great hall, rounded the first floor > > and leaped up steps to the next floor [not exact]. Later > > it is on the first floor again. > > > > Write off as incorrect mention or moving staircase? > > The British (and maybe all Europeans, for all I know) refer to the > ground floor and then start counting up from there. Thus "the first > floor" would be "the second floor" if Hogwarts was in North America. > > As for petrified people/objects in different locations, I assumed > that the basilisk moved around. > > __________________________________________________ Actually, Hogwarts is a magic castle in the literal sense. Dumbledore says in GoF he got up one morning and found himself in a room full of ornate and elaborate chamber pots. He went back and could not find the room again. He offered guesses on why: perhaps the room only appears at 5:30 in the morning, or only to people who have very full bladders. If one room vanishes and reappears or otherwise Brigadoons, it's no jump whatsoever to say the rest of the castle doesn't likewise rearrange itself to some degree. [Which would make the Marauders Map that much more valuable if it rewrites itself to keep up with the changes]. Indigo From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 11:52:26 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 11:52:26 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter Bug In-Reply-To: <9fieue+hvt3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fih5q+bq1r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20207 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea wrote: > > --- Stephanie Roark Keener wrote: > > > On the subject that Rita Skeeter is an unregistered > > > animagus, which > > > people keep mentioning from time to time: > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure she is registered. > > > > Actually, Hermione says at the very beginning of the > > GOF explanation that Rita is "an unregistered > > Animagus". > > > > > > Andrea Sorry, haven't gotten that far (again) yet. Damn, and I thought I had caught something. Stephanie > > > Maybe Hermione went to the library to see if 'insects' were a type of > transformation animagi could take? > > Up until then, we had only heard of Animagi turning into four legged > critters. > > Indigo From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 5 12:00:34 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 12:00:34 -0000 Subject: Patterns - next DADA prof - Quidditch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fihl2+g8if@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20208 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote, among other things > Okay, I thought I listened to the entire Newsround interview, but Steve's caught something I hadn't: the famed female DADA professor will be arriving with the next book! So, let's get the possibilities rolling. We've discussed Fleur, we've discussed Mrs. Figg--any other suggestions? Mme. Maxime? The Sphinx? Molly Weasley (she did go to Hogwarts--I'm sure she can do a lot more with that wand than make white sauce and Summon contraband out of her sons' pockets)? Someone we haven't met yet? Will Dumbledore decide that Arithmancy can go on the back burner 'til Voldemort is defeated and press Vector into service as DADA professor? > I believe that the next DADA teacher will be someone we haven't met yet, or even had mentioned. This is because, in every book so far, the DADA teacher has been completely unknown to date. Also, Harry always gets to meet or at least hear of them before they are revealed as the DADA teacher, in Moody's case only glancingly. Thus Quirrell in the Leaky Cauldron, Lockhart at F&B's, Lupin on the train, and Amos Diggory's appeal to Arthur over Mad-Eye. I realise, of course, that Quirrell's case is exceptional as Harry isn't yet to know that there is such a thing as defence against the dark arts. That said, JKR does like to set up these patterns only to twist and break them - think of the Hogwarts Express in COS, Diagon Alley in GOF, meet-the-Weasley family in PS/SS, Quidditch in GOF, one-on-one with Voldemort in POA - which is why the continuing repetition is so enjoyable. I find the Quidditch games particular fun for this reason. Apart, maybe, from the first (I'm a little hazy) I'm pretty sure there is *not one* Quidditch match which does not serve some plot purpose (I exclude those where Harry is not there). When I read PS/SS, not yet knowing what sort of book it was, and came to the first Quidditch match, I thought, Oh no this is real Boys Own stuff - if there's a lot of this it will get boring, or even embarrassing as our hero saves the sporting day yet again. I now think JKR knew perfectly well that's what it seemed like, and has beautifully subverted the genre to her own ends. David From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 12:14:00 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 12:14:00 -0000 Subject: wolf catchers (was Ch. summary) Message-ID: <9fiie8+hc7k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20209 Amy Z wrote: I'm not sure when I became sure that Lupin was a werewolf I didn't get that his Boggart turned into the moon, though. I thought it really was a crystal ball and that he didn't like them because someone looking into one would know what he was . . . ----- And when you add his fleeing of Trelawny's offer to crystal gaze to the possibility that the boggart was a crystal ball, it totally throws you off of the wolf track. Though I have to do a little bit of complaining here, I wondered if he might be a werewolf when Hermione first read his name alound on the train. But, being slightly dense, I sort of put it out of my mind. And then, at some point I also became suspicious of Scabbers and my husband came down the hall (and he was way ahead of me at this point) and I remember wondering aloud to him (my mistake), "Must have something to do with Scabbers..." ANd he kind of grinned and said, "So you know about Lupin then?" I guess he thought I was in the Shrieking Shack already -- but then I had to stop and remember about Lupin's name, and then I thought about his symptoms and when I guessed he told me. Grrr... You know, he also told his whole high school, via his job as the morning announcements reader, that Darth is Luke's father. Man. Stephanie From vderark at bccs.org Tue Jun 5 12:50:06 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 12:50:06 -0000 Subject: MM's Bathroom Location /points In-Reply-To: <9fhqq2+se20@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fikhu+umvr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20210 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., floridian127 at y... wrote: > In CoS Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is stated to be on the > first floor. Then when H/H/R run up the stairs and find > Mrs Norris petrified they were on the second floor. They > past the feast in the great hall, rounded the first floor > and leaped up steps to the next floor [not exact]. Later > it is on the first floor again. > > Write off as incorrect mention or moving staircase? > > I checked lexicon and Steve has it on the second floor. > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_floors.html > The "first floor" is what we Yanks would call the second floor. That would be the perfect explanation if it weren't for the fact that it's not different in the British versions, from what I've been told. That bathroom moves around, quite frankly. It's described as being on the first floor and the second floor (never the ground floor). We are told in PS/SS that rooms do move around in Hogwarts. JKR herself stated this in an interview. This is from the AOL chat, (Oct 2000): Firebolt: Ms. Rowling, have you ever made a map or blueprint of the school? J.K. Rowling: No, because all those staircases keep shifting around and rooms pop out of nowhere, and stuff just moves too much. But I have got a notebook that reminds me what floor everything is on, just to keep track. Of course, if anything moves, I can blame it on magic, not my mistakes. She has placed that bathroom on both floors, so obviously it's one of the rooms that moves. In the Lexicon, I chose the one that seems to be most specifically described and passed anything else off as a Flint on her part. POINTS: Amy Z made a reference to the points that get added or subtracted for behavior. She said that the full list would be "coming soon to a Lexicon near you." She's the editor of those pages, so she's been waiting patiently for me to make them live. Well, the first such list is now on the Lexicon. Check out this path: Wizarding World => Wizard Places => Hogwarts => Detentions => Points Or just skip all that (even though it's more fun) and jump to http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/points.html The points for the rest of the years will be added this summer when I go into full Lexicon edit mode. Yeehaw! Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 12:59:40 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 12:59:40 -0000 Subject: How are wizards named? (was I don't get it) In-Reply-To: <9fhvdc+mhot@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fil3s+4mom@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20211 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" wrote: > > Barbara: Of course, he received his name at birth and was then bitten by a > > werewolf as a child. Perhaps his parents should have thought better of the > > name they gave him. > > If ever someone's destiny were in his name... > > And then Barbara wrote: > > I've noticed that names often reflect the personalities of their owners. > > Could it be that wizarding parents name their children when they have a > > better idea of the child's personality? I know Voldy was named right away, > > but his mother was dying. But then, there's the problem of what to call > > children if they are babies, if they don't have a permanent name till > > childhood. This question comes to mind because I hear Native Americans do > > that. Children are given temporary names until more of their character is > > known, so they get a fitting name. Actually, I'm not sure if this is still > > practiced. I know it *was* a century or two ago. ANd then Robert wrote: > > Someone told me there were 500 "nations" of Native Americans > with, presumably, various customs. Isn't there some business > of being crucified with hooks - > > Remus Lupin may, indeed, be from another country and another > culture, where wizard children's names are more meaningful. > Only Hogwarts in Britain, under Dumbledore, would have him. Naming of children once they reach the age of five or six is common throughout the world, especially in tribal societies. In fact, it's not unusal for a person to have three or more names during their lifetime. A sort of generic nickname which people call babies, then a childhood name, and yet another name once ceremonial adulthood is reached. One theory regarding why parents don't name their children unitl later, and one which has practical merit, is that infant mortality rates are so high, it's better to wait to "name" a child unitl you're fairly sure that the child is going to reach adulthood -- emotional attachments are kept to a minimum if you're caring for nameless "Baby Girl-y" insted of your mother's namesake. (And please, anthropologists on the list, lets not get into the merits -- or lack there of -- of structural-functionalism here...). OK, back on point. It could be the case that Lupin's parents are following some ethnic custom. But, at the same time, Sirius Black is a big black dog, and I doubt his parents re-named him once they found out he is a big black dog -- especially since only a handful of people know that he is a big black dog. I have always assumed that until Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Dumbledore find out in PoA, and then people present in the hospital wind at the end of GoF (Rita Skeeter -- that Cow!) find out -- then then James, Sirius, Peter and Lupin (and maybe Lily) are the only ones who know. I'm more inclined to believe that Wizards name (aside from the obvious point that they're just a plot device) their children with the benefit of 1) a sense of humor and 2) maybe just a little bit of Seer knowledge about their children. Stephanie From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 13:27:00 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 15:27:00 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What are muggles, anyway? References: <9fh85i+erse@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00f001c0edc3$33ec6570$0f71023e@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 20212 Pondered Milz, > Interesting....so essentially Muggles could just be Squibs who have > lost their magical cultural heritage. That would explain the presence > of Muggle-borns. Hmm. I had never thought of it like that. Perhaps all humans were once wizards, but a comet burst or Syltho's grampa showed up, and the majority of them degenerated into squibs. In that case, muggles are like docked cats or cats with a debilitating birth defect--essentailly normal, but missing an appendage. But what if they're like manx cats--different, yes, yet possessed of positive characteristics that magical humans lack. I mean, does Dumbledore dream of the day when all humans will be magical? Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high." From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Jun 5 14:15:55 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:15:55 -0500 Subject: Harry/Henry Potter -- Ch 12 & 13 Summary Questions -- Turning to the Dark Side References: <9feo5t+j7cr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B1CE99B.E3D3AA0E@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20213 Hi -- Rita Winston wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > > Well, that immediately got me thinking that perhaps > > Harry isn't a Harold at all, but a Henry > > IIRC JKR said in an interview that Harry's name (what I call "birth > certificate name") is Harry, not Harold or Henry or Harrison. She did indeed say that his name is Harry. She went on to say that Harry is her favorite boy's name and that if her daughter had been a boy, he would have been named Harry. Another Penny hot-button, but Harry is most definitely not Henry, Harold or Harrison. He is Harry. Harry James Potter. :--) Great summaries, Trina!! > > 2. Were Ron and Harry right to behave so abominably to Hermione in > > the affair of the Firebolt? > No, they were not in the right. But, their reaction was probably normal 13 year male behavior. I agree completely with Catherine's excellent response on this topic and found I have very little to add to what she already said. I think Ron was completely insensitive and spiteful, while Harry's crime was simply passively going along with Ron's vendetta even though he recognized that Hermione was merely acting out of concern for his safety. Amy Z makes the good point that Hermione's crime here was not being honest about her thoughts on the Firebolt from the get-go -- she should have stated that she thought Black sent the broom directly to Harry and Ron, not to McGonagall. In fact, I heartily second everything Amy Z said on this score. > 7. Ron is apparantly more easily angered at Hermione than is Harry, > even in the Firebolt Fuss. Why is this? > I don't think Ron is just more easily angered at *Hermione* specifically (other than in this instance) -- he's more easily angered at everyone. Hermione bears the brunt of his temper in PoA, while it's Harry who has this role in GoF. Wonder who will be the recipient of Ron's ire in Book 5. Maybe *both* Harry and Hermione? Hmmmm .... Point of clarification -- more than one person has asked, in responding to this question, the H/H shippers not to get worked up because they make the point that Ron clearly has romantic interest in Hermione. Believe me, we (the H/H types) don't have any trouble with this concept. We just don't think Ron's feelings are reciprocated. Chapter 13 now ... > 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they > just a waste of pages? > Yes, I love them! I'm not even a huge sports fan in general, but I absolutely love the Quidditch matches. I missed them in GoF and hope that we will see some of them in later books (hoping the books won't be so dark in tone that Quidditch is missing again). Lee Jordan's commentary is just priceless. McGonagall's reactions are always a hoot. And, they are just plain exciting. > 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy > and gang? > I agree with others that his patronus was clearly a stag given the later comments of both Lupin and Dumbledore. Or, perhaps it was merely a partially-formed stag ... but probably recognizable as a stag nonetheless I'd think. Jenny wrote: > but why would anyone think that someone like Percy, > for example, would choose to go down the evil road? How would that > happen? Would Percy (or Ron or Hermione, Hagrid, Pigwidgeon, or the > Fat Lady) go looking for Voldie to say "Hey, my life sucks. Can I > join you?" > I don't think any of our "good guy" characters would *choose* to *turn* the Dark Side. I think any of them are susceptible to becoming a pawn of the Dark Side. They all have some character trait that could be used against them. In the case of Percy, Fred/George and Ron, their ambition is clearly something that could bring about disastrous consequences to the good guys if manipulated by the Voldy forces. Others have posited that Hermione's desire for academic success & recognition could be manipulated (I'm a little less clear how logistically this might work but I concede it's possible). Ron is also more susceptible to the Imperius Curse than the average wizard it might seem -- this could be a red herring rather than a red flag (but my money is on it being important in some way). Just thought of this: maybe Ron's susceptibility to the Imperius Curse might cause Harry and/or Hermione to *believe* Ron was acting under the Imperius Curse, even if he wasn't. Florence had some excellent thoughts on this question -- I really enjoyed her post. Penny (who is *still* remarkably functioning on less than 3-4 hrs of night-time sleep ....) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lj2d30 at gateway.net Tue Jun 5 14:50:49 2001 From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 14:50:49 -0000 Subject: Neville's Memory, PoA ?s Message-ID: <9firk9+3g04@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20214 Not necessarily in that order. Firstly, a clarification regarding the Grim ? is needed. *Of course* Harry sees Sirius, not a Grim. You know that; I know that; everyone who has read PoA in its entirety knows that. However, at *that* point in the story, before we know that Sirius Black is a big black dog who is hanging out in search of Peter/Scabbers, did you/Harry think that it was, indeed, the Grim? The speculation that Neville has had a memory charm on him has once again, IMO, reared its ugly head. Yes, he is a very forgetful young man, no doubt about it, but I do not believe he has had a memory modification performed. I don't think he was around when his parents were tortured. There is no evidence anywhere that he was (or wasn't). Who's to say that the Longbottoms weren't on their way to a meeting at the MoM, dinner with friends, or off on a mini-break to reconnect as a couple when the DE's waylaid them? The point is we don't have all the details. In my opinion, Neville's memory problems stem from his subconscious fear of magic. He wants to be good at it and not so hopeless, but I think, deep down, he *doesn't* want to, on the grounds that if he just "gets by" nobody will notice him and therefore, not curse him. He has a big self-confidence problem which inhibits his magical ability. I am so longing for the day when everything clicks for him and he realizes that trusting himself and his magic is not to be feared. I hope it comes soon. He has had a few big brave moments--he takes on Crabbe and Goyle, he hunts Harry and Hermione to tell them that Malfoy is trying to catch them, he admits he left the list of passwords lying about, he asks Hermione to the Yule Ball (hey, for a timid 14 yo, this is big!). I have high hopes for our dear Neville. I was going to tackle the Muggle question too, but I feel my thoughts on the subject are still too nebulous for submission as yet... Trina From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jun 5 15:51:04 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:51:04 -0000 Subject: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <00f001c0edc3$33ec6570$0f71023e@shasta> Message-ID: <9fiv58+d5ds@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20215 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" wrote: > Pondered Milz, > > > Interesting....so essentially Muggles could just be Squibs who have > > lost their magical cultural heritage. That would explain the presence > > of Muggle-borns. > > Hmm. I had never thought of it like that. Perhaps all humans were once > wizards, but a comet burst or Syltho's grampa showed up, and the majority of > them degenerated into squibs. > Right and the magical cultural heritage, such as the various Goblin Wars, Quidditch, etc. were never "handed down" to the following Squibbed generations. Those that were probably survived as 'fairy tales' or folk tales such as "The Frog Prince", an animagi who preferred to live in frog form until he fell in love with that Muggle girl or that brave little witch, "Little Red-Riding Hood" who along with her gran defeated a werewolf. > In that case, muggles are like docked cats or cats with a debilitating birth > defect--essentailly normal, but missing an appendage. But what if they're > like manx cats--different, yes, yet possessed of positive characteristics > that magical humans lack. Or maybe Muggles and Squibs lack a hormone that is needed to "activate" the magic cells. No one's ever really figured out what the pineal gland does anyway. > I mean, does Dumbledore dream of the day when all > humans will be magical? Could be. Maybe Dumbledore is privy to Magical/Muggle genetic studies that imply Muggles are really Squibs. Milz From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Jun 5 15:57:27 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:57:27 -0000 Subject: On Hermione being Intimidated Message-ID: <9fivh7+tfmk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20216 The only places I can see where she has acted intimidated were in: PoA: when she speaks 'timidly' to Sirius ... which is something that, if memory serves, was in the US versions but not the UK versions. I thought it silly. GoF: When Harry gets all in her face about wanting Hagrid back as CoMC teacher after his half-giant heritage is revealed by Rita Skeeter (that cow!) in the Daily Prophet. [Not an exact quote, but very close: "I'm not going to pretend it wasn't nice having a proper class, but ...of course I want Hagrid back, of course I do!" Hermione quailed a little under Harry's stare. ] Indigo From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 16:15:44 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fh1rg+7vib@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010605161544.39949.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20217 It depends - whatever her religious beliefs may be, JKR clearly shows - via the ghosts - that there is some kind of an afterlife in her magical universe. So how does having one's soul sucked out by a Dementor affect one's afterlife spiritual status? My guess is that the Kiss has a most unfavorable effect on same. I'll stick with Death. - CMC The dementors kiss takes away your soul, and you are left with merely a body. If you don't have a soul it can not ressurect. Did that make sense? Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 16:18:10 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I don't get it In-Reply-To: <015d01c0ed72$d84f3c60$b339acce@rebeccab> Message-ID: <20010605161810.98937.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20218 Actually, we don't know her name is Virginia, do we? It could just as easily be Genevieve. Or Guinivere... Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 16:47:47 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 16:47:47 -0000 Subject: Next DADA teacher/Florence In-Reply-To: <9fido8+141g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fj2fj+5fng@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20219 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" wrote: > > Someone was asking about who the next DADA teacher might be, and > nobody has yet proposed Florence!! If it really was Snape she was > kissing, she might know plenty about the Dark Arts. Just a wild guess > though really. Florence has been proposed as the future DADA on other boards. I feel sure we will see her again. It doesn't matter if she was kissing Snape, Sirius, or anyone else. It would be nice to see another teacher who is in their 30's. Actually, I kind of like your point that if it was Snape, then she might know plenty about the Dark Arts! Koinonia From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 16:48:08 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <9fiv58+d5ds@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010605164808.45838.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20220 I agree with everyone who said that Muggles are merely squibs..I believe that faith and miracles, and sometimes doing what is seemingly impossible in the main stream society. I think that what is different between a muggle and a wizard/witch is that witches see don't see magical things happening is impossible and everything is possible if you believe things can happen then they will. Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 17:10:34 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 17:10:34 -0000 Subject: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <9fiv58+d5ds@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fj3qa+6frk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20221 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > Could be. Maybe Dumbledore is privy to Magical/Muggle genetic > studies that imply Muggles are really Squibs. Somehow, a culture that doesn't use "eckeltricity" doesn't strike me as prime ground for having done genetic research. On the other hand, genealogical research seems to be the kind of thing that would fit in well -- heir of Slytherin and all that stuff.... ....Craig From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 17:14:28 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 17:14:28 -0000 Subject: Next DADA teacher/Florence In-Reply-To: <9fj2fj+5fng@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fj41k+geh4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20222 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:> > > Florence has been proposed as the future DADA on other boards. I > feel sure we will see her again. It doesn't matter if she was > kissing Snape, Sirius, or anyone else. It would be nice to see > another teacher who is in their 30's. Of course, if it is a teacher in her 30's, we might get to see one of the boys do a reverse Hermione-and-Lockhart-type swooning.... ....Craig From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 5 17:23:01 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 17:23:01 -0000 Subject: Good characters going bad...specifically Wormtail In-Reply-To: <3B1CE99B.E3D3AA0E@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9fj4hl+2die@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20223 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer > I don't think any of our "good guy" characters would *choose* to *turn* > the Dark Side. I think any of them are susceptible to becoming a pawn > of the Dark Side. They all have some character trait that could be used > against them. I totally agree with this. I can't see any of them making a conscious decision to join Voldemort. This isn't however, a "me too" post - it reminded me of some comments I wanted to make about Wormtail. I had been trying to figure out why exactly he joined Voldemort, as I was thinking that if it was the story of James, Sirius, Lupin and Wormtail we were following, we would probably thinking the same about him as we think about our current "good guy" characters - that there is no way he would've joined the Dark Side. Voldemort seems to me to be a pretty good judge of character, whether this is magically assisted or not. I think that he had various ways of recruiting wizards to his side, and of bending people to his will. There are, of course, many who are inclined that way, who would not need persuading. There are others who he knows would never join him - people such as James, Sirius, Barty Crouch Snr, Dumbledore, Mr Weasley - these are the people who would be most likely coerced into something against their will, by utilising the imperious curse (as we saw with BCS) - which works with varying degrees of success. Wormtail, I think, fits into a third, inbetween category. Their instinct isn't for evil, or for joining the Dark Side, but they would do so if a) it is the easier option, and "nothing seems to be gained from resisting" (Wormtail, paraphrase, PoA) or b) they were too scared to do otherwise. I think the slightest threat of the cruciatus curse or death would have been enough to sway Wormtail, and I think there are plenty of others out there who would do exactly the same thing - whether any of our lot would is a debatable question. There are probably other factors at play with Wormtail - both push and pull. JKR portrays him as a sulky little boy during the scene in the Riddle house with Voldemort. Sulky and resentful. I can easily see him behaving like this with his old school friends - knowing that he isn't as good a wizard as they are, and that they seem to overlook him would have made him feel resentful, and very much on the periphery. I am sure Voldemort knew this and used it to his advantage, and in doing so, scared Wormtail into doing his bidding, and poisoning him against his friends in the first place. So I think that Wormtail's motivation was primarily fear - cowardice. I also think it likely that he regrets this now. He spends 12 years as a rat, then returns to a master who tortures him for fun, or to teach him a lesson, and whom he finds repulsive. He is like a child who needs someone stronger than him to lead him - and he swapped good people such as his Hogwarts' friends for someone who doesn't unintentionally ignore him, but who treats him very badly. He is never going to be happy and I think he knows it. Finally, if anyone is going to be offered the chance of some kind of redemption, I believe it is him. It is possible that JKR drops a hint about this when Dumbledore is telling Harry that it wasn't a bad thing he does when he saves Wormtail's life, and that he may be glad of this one day. I am hoping that there comes a time when Wormtail finds the courage to do something good, and turn away from Voldemort. Catherine From JamiDeise at aol.com Tue Jun 5 18:20:49 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 14:20:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Next DADA teacher/Florence Message-ID: <46.15d06d94.284e7d01@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20224 In a message dated 6/5/2001 12:52:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, koinonia02 at yahoo.com writes: << Florence has been proposed as the future DADA on other boards. I feel sure we will see her again. It doesn't matter if she was kissing Snape, Sirius, or anyone else. It would be nice to see another teacher who is in their 30's. Actually, I kind of like your point that if it was Snape, then she might know plenty about the Dark Arts! >> Perhaps it wasn't a kiss after all, but vampire Snape doing his vampire-thing! Jami From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jun 5 18:40:06 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 18:40:06 -0000 Subject: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <9fj3qa+6frk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fj926+cgf1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20225 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > > Could be. Maybe Dumbledore is privy to Magical/Muggle genetic > > studies that imply Muggles are really Squibs. > > Somehow, a culture that doesn't use "eckeltricity" doesn't strike > me as prime ground for having done genetic research. On the other > hand, genealogical research seems to be the kind of thing that > would fit in well -- heir of Slytherin and all that stuff.... > > ....Craig They do research. The Wolfsbane Potion is a relatively new potion for lycanthropy. IIRC, in SS/PS, Harry saw a book in Flourish & Botts called New Hexes (or something along those lines) that included the Jelly-Legs curse. Dumbledore discrovered the 12 uses for Dragon's Blood. Then there's the activities of that mysterious Department of Mysteries. It wouldn't surprize me if there have been wizards and witches who have studied why Muggles are Muggles and why there are Squibs. :-)Milz From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 18:48:24 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 18:48:24 -0000 Subject: Good characters going bad...specifically Wormtail In-Reply-To: <9fj4hl+2die@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fj9ho+ren8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20226 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer > > I don't think any of our "good guy" characters would *choose* to > *turn* > > the Dark Side. I think any of them are susceptible to becoming a > pawn > > of the Dark Side. They all have some character trait that could be > used > > against them. > > I totally agree with this. I can't see any of them making a > conscious decision to join Voldemort. This isn't however, a "me too" > post - it reminded me of some comments I wanted to make about > Wormtail. I had been trying to figure out why exactly he joined > Voldemort, as I was thinking that if it was the story of James, > Sirius, Lupin and Wormtail we were following, we would probably > thinking the same about him as we think about our current "good guy" > characters - that there is no way he would've joined the Dark Side. > > Voldemort seems to me to be a pretty good judge of character, whether > this is magically assisted or not. I think that he had various ways > of recruiting wizards to his side, and of bending people to his > will. There are, of course, many who are inclined that way, who > would not need persuading. There are others who he knows would never > join him - people such as James, Sirius, Barty Crouch Snr, > Dumbledore, Mr Weasley - these are the people who would be most > likely coerced into something against their will, by utilising the > imperious curse (as we saw with BCS) - which works with varying > degrees of success. Wormtail, I think, fits into a third, inbetween > category. Their instinct isn't for evil, or for joining the Dark > Side, but they would do so if a) it is the easier option, > and "nothing seems to be gained from resisting" (Wormtail, > paraphrase, PoA) or b) they were too scared to do otherwise. I think > the slightest threat of the cruciatus curse or death would have been > enough to sway Wormtail, and I think there are plenty of others out > there who would do exactly the same thing - whether any of our lot > would is a debatable question. > > There are probably other factors at play with Wormtail - both push > and pull. JKR portrays him as a sulky little boy during the scene in > the Riddle house with Voldemort. Sulky and resentful. I can easily > see him behaving like this with his old school friends - knowing that > he isn't as good a wizard as they are, and that they seem to overlook > him would have made him feel resentful, and very much on the > periphery. I am sure Voldemort knew this and used it to his > advantage, and in doing so, scared Wormtail into doing his bidding, > and poisoning him against his friends in the first place. > > So I think that Wormtail's motivation was primarily fear - > cowardice. I also think it likely that he regrets this now. He > spends 12 years as a rat, then returns to a master who tortures him > for fun, or to teach him a lesson, and whom he finds repulsive. He > is like a child who needs someone stronger than him to lead him - and > he swapped good people such as his Hogwarts' friends for someone who > doesn't unintentionally ignore him, but who treats him very badly. > > He is never going to be happy and I think he knows it. Finally, if > anyone is going to be offered the chance of some kind of redemption, > I believe it is him. It is possible that JKR drops a hint about this > when Dumbledore is telling Harry that it wasn't a bad thing he does > when he saves Wormtail's life, and that he may be glad of this one > day. I am hoping that there comes a time when Wormtail finds the > courage to do something good, and turn away from Voldemort. > > Catherine If there is anything like a "sure thing" in the HP saga, it is that Wormtail will redeem himself. The textual clues, IMO, go far beyond the sowing of possible red herrings, and JKR is waving that big ol' red flag. She would break faith with her readers not to follow up on these clues. More reasonably subject to speculation are some of those other characters about whom we have all spoken: Percy (I think he will be duped, at least by LV); Draco (irredeemable, if any character is); Ron (people have made a case for it, but I don't think so, myself); even Karkaroff, whom I think is that kind of turncoat despised by both sides. On another topic, As soon as I have heard enough more new voice characterizations, I'll be posting another interim report on Dale v. Fry. TTFN Haggridd From linman6868 at aol.com Tue Jun 5 19:05:43 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 19:05:43 -0000 Subject: Dementor's Kiss v. Death (was Re: Chapter 12 Summary) In-Reply-To: <20010605161544.39949.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fjai7+dshv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20227 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > It depends - whatever her religious beliefs may be, JKR clearly > shows - via the ghosts - that there is some kind of an afterlife in > her magical universe. So how does having one's soul sucked out by a > Dementor affect one's afterlife spiritual status? My guess is that > the Kiss has a most unfavorable effect on same. I'll stick with > Death. > > - CMC > > > The dementors kiss takes away your soul, and you are left with merely a body. If you don't have a soul it can not ressurect. Did that make sense? I just imagine someone's soul being eternally digested. It would be a sort of Do-Not-Pass-Go-Do-Not-Collect-$200 way of sending someone to Hell. Yeah, give me death too. Lisa I. From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Tue Jun 5 20:01:04 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 20:01:04 -0000 Subject: how many Hermiones? In-Reply-To: <9fi5s2+bfa@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fjdq0+rlr4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20228 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > > One thing I've wondered about - why couldn't Hermione have used the > > turner to dial up a few extra hours of naptime? Maybe she was being > > too Type A to think of it (she would have never thought to use to > > save Black and Buckbeak without Dumbledore's prompting). Or maybe, > > just like meeting your past or future self, terrible things have > > happened to wizards who overslept while time-turning! > > > > and what would Parvati et al have made of two Hermiones in bed? If the Patils are identical twins (I forget), wouldn't it seem perfectly natural to Parvati that there should be two identical Hermiones as well? Their both _being_ Hermione would be strange, though. I suppose that two sets of (identical?) twins, in different years in the school, isn't statistically unusual. Nevertheless, I wonder if JKR has something special planned for all of them... Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From andromache815 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 08:51:40 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:51:40 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi (was A Crazy Idea) References: <9ff83b+vdnh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20229 Doreen: I like the bat idea. Perhaps Snape *is* a bat animagi, as someone suggested. If he is, perhaps that is why Snape *acts* like a vampire with his swishing cape ... or was that swirling cape? I don't understand what vampires have to do with swishing robes... As for Snape as an animagus, he seems more the snake type. Funny this should come up, as we've discussed it over at Syrina's Snape list. Anyway, Snape is always described as hissing, and he always seems to appear out of nowhere. He moves quietly and seems to glide along, like a snake would. He's also smart. I like to imagine him with a snake for a pet. It'd be cool if he were a Parselmouth, too, but I doubt there's evidence for this in canon. Too bad. Is it possible to choose the animal one becomes? Obviously, becoming an animagus is difficult, but can be learned, as opposed to parseltongue. Or does the animal one becomes reflect the personality of the animagus, such as the Patronus, which differs from wizard to wizard? Vicky From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 5 20:22:32 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 20:22:32 -0000 Subject: Dementor's Kiss v. Death (was Re: Chapter 12 Summary) In-Reply-To: <9fjai7+dshv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fjf28+mdnc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20230 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > It depends - whatever her religious beliefs may be, JKR clearly > > shows - via the ghosts - that there is some kind of an afterlife in > > her magical universe. So how does having one's soul sucked out by > a > > Dementor affect one's afterlife spiritual status? My guess is that > > the Kiss has a most unfavorable effect on same. I'll stick with > > Death. > > > > - CMC > > > > > > The dementors kiss takes away your soul, and you are left with > merely a body. If you don't have a soul it can not ressurect. Did > that make sense? > > I just imagine someone's soul being eternally digested. It would be > a sort of Do-Not-Pass-Go-Do-Not-Collect-$200 way of sending someone > to Hell. Yeah, give me death too. > > Lisa I. I'm not sure... we could be heading towards a Buffy: Angel gets his soul back kind of thing... Nothing is impossible, especially where magic is concerned! Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 5 20:25:06 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 20:25:06 -0000 Subject: how many Hermiones? In-Reply-To: <9fjdq0+rlr4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fjf72+ou3i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20231 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., robertc at r... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > > > One thing I've wondered about - why couldn't Hermione have used the > > > turner to dial up a few extra hours of naptime? Maybe she was being > > > too Type A to think of it (she would have never thought to use to > > > save Black and Buckbeak without Dumbledore's prompting). Or maybe, > > > just like meeting your past or future self, terrible things have > > > happened to wizards who overslept while time-turning! > > > > > > > and what would Parvati et al have made of two Hermiones in bed? > > If the Patils are identical twins (I forget), wouldn't it > seem perfectly natural to Parvati that there should be two > identical Hermiones as well? Their both _being_ Hermione > would be strange, though. > > I suppose that two sets of (identical?) twins, in different > years in the school, isn't statistically unusual. Nevertheless, > I wonder if JKR has something special planned for all of them... > > Robert Carnegie > Meretricious! I'm being very frivolous here, but in that case (looking at the Hermione thing - two in a bed) shouldn't Hermione's name be Narcissa? Catherine BTW: I just can't see Hermione as being the slightest bit that way inclined. Reason: well, she wasn't in the least bit affected by the Veela/and Fleur, was she? From bramton1 at aol.com Tue Jun 5 20:38:12 2001 From: bramton1 at aol.com (Sir Brad) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 20:38:12 -0000 Subject: Chapter 12 Summary In-Reply-To: <20010605161544.39949.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fjfvk+ujr7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20232 Death or losing your soul? Hmm...well since the afterlife is more or less believed as the survival of a soul, getting the Dementor's kiss could effectively eliminate the possibillity of an afterlife. Borrowing a quote for the Revolutionary Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death...just not the dementors." -Brad --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > It depends - whatever her religious beliefs may be, JKR clearly > shows - via the ghosts - that there is some kind of an afterlife in > her magical universe. So how does having one's soul sucked out by a > Dementor affect one's afterlife spiritual status? My guess is that > the Kiss has a most unfavorable effect on same. I'll stick with > Death. > > - CMC > > > The dementors kiss takes away your soul, and you are left with merely a body. If you don't have a soul it can not ressurect. Did that make sense? > > > Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andromache815 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 21:58:31 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:58:31 -1000 Subject: Fawkes and basilisk - Slytherins Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20233 It just occurred to me that if a basilisk kills with a glance and petrifies with its reflection, why didn't anything happen to Fawkes when he pecked at its eyes? Does it only kill mortal creatures? Is Fawkes immune to it because he's a magical creature? And a post I made to Syrina's Snape list: I often wonder why Dumbledore keeps the Slytherins around. Are there any good ones? I'd imagine if a Slytherin did, by some miracle, turn out good, he/she'd be very powerful. And is Salazar Slytherin evil? I know he created the Chamber of Secrets because of the rivalry with Gryffindore, but there must have been some reason the other three founders agreed to work with him to build Hogwarts. Vicky, who has too much time on her hands From bugganeer at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 21:02:18 2001 From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 21:02:18 -0000 Subject: Wizard names In-Reply-To: <9fil3s+4mom@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fjhcq+t6vj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20234 I first thought the Weasleys were named in alphabetical order. Bill, Charley, Fred, George, Percy, Ron, Virginia [Ginny] Than I realized Percy was in the wrong spot. Could it be Edward Percival Weasley? Bugg From devika261 at aol.com Tue Jun 5 21:09:36 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 17:09:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi (was A Crazy Idea) Message-ID: <48.16aa3d11.284ea490@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20235 In a message dated 6/5/01 4:08:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, andromache815 at hotmail.com writes: > Is it possible to choose the animal one becomes? Obviously, becoming an > animagus is difficult, but can be learned, as opposed to parseltongue. Or > does the animal one becomes reflect the personality of the animagus, such as > the Patronus, which differs from wizard to wizard? > I believe that JKR said in a chat somewhere (sorry I don't know which one) that the animal a person becomes reflects his or her personality (JKR mentioned something about how horrible it would be to become a cockroach). This could have something to do with Sirius's name as well. It's true that his parents could not have known that he was going to become an animagus, so that was not the reason they gave him that name. But maybe he transforms into a dog partly because of his name? That and the fact that he's loyal and brave (IMO, anyway, for those of you out there who don't like Sirius). BTW, I've been trying to figure out the significance of the stag in mythology, but I haven't had much luck. Could someone point me in the right direction or tell me what they came up with? I read someone's post about the stag being an enemy of the serpent, but I would like to be able to find something more detailed. Devika :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Tue Jun 5 21:15:14 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Carnegie) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:15:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20236 05/06/01 22:02:18, "Bugg" wrote: >I first thought the Weasleys were named in alphabetical order. >Bill, Charley, Fred, George, Percy, Ron, Virginia [Ginny] >Than I realized Percy was in the wrong spot. >Could it be Edward Percival Weasley? > >Bugg >From a different e-mail address which I hope is working: Evans Perseus Weasley? Although www.babynames.com and/or www.babyname.com (different sites, natch) sternly warn against confusing the name Percy / Percival / Persius (new to me) with Perseus - apparently they're quite distinct and separate in their origin - I had half a mind to put Perseus Evans back into play before, but my conscience prevented me. But not for long, as you see - I can resist anything except temptation. Which is awkward since I'm trying to diet. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From bohners at pobox.com Tue Jun 5 21:26:33 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 17:26:33 -0400 Subject: Chesterton on Voldemort? Message-ID: <031c01c0ee06$3af4a560$b339acce@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20237 I just came across a fascinating quote by G.K. Chesterton in the middle of an essay on Charles Dickens, and was immediately reminded of Voldemort. Given that JKR is a known GKC fan (she's even a member of the GKC society in the UK, I'm told), I wouldn't be surprised if these remarks were, consciously or subconsciously, an influence on her portrayal of the chief villain in the Harry Potter books. See what you think: "This life of ours is a very enjoyable fight, but a very miserable truce. And it appears strange to me that so few critics of Dickens or of other romantic writers have noticed this philosophical meaning in the undiluted villain. The villain is not in the story to be a character; he is there to be a danger -- a ceaseless, ruthless and uncompromising menace, like that of the wild beasts or the sea. For the full satisfaction of the sense of combat, which everywhere and always involves a sense of equality, it is necessary to make the evil thing a man; but it is not always necessary, it is not even always artistic to make him a mixed and probable man. In any tale, the tone of which is at all symbolic, he may quite legitimately be made an aboriginal and infernal energy. He must be a man only in the sense that he must have a wit and will to be matched with the wit and will of the man chiefly fighting. ..." This approach to villainy may seem old-fashioned, but I think that there is something to it. JKR has given us hints of humanity in Voldemort's past -- the natural feelings of hurt and abandonment that he experienced as a child -- but by giving Harry Potter a very similar background, she skillfully diverts us from the temptation to view Tom Riddle's sufferings as an excuse for Voldemort's atrocities. After all, if Harry was also orphaned at an early age and grew up in an abusive atmosphere, yet still chose not to allow himself to be consumed by bitterness and hatred, then clearly Voldemort's evil was by no means an inevitability, but rather a deliberate choice. There is no sympathy for the devil here: Voldemort is a force of pure and conscious wickedness, which must be opposed and defeated at all costs. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Jun 5 21:39:53 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 14:39:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Turning to the Dark Side In-Reply-To: <9fgvtd+ov0b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010605143311.038cd1f0@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20238 At 09:51 PM 6/4/01 +0000, meboriqua at aol.com wrote: >Would Percy (or Ron or Hermione, Hagrid, Pigwidgeon, or the >Fat Lady) go looking for Voldie to say "Hey, my life sucks. Can I >join you?" Or would Fred and George's desire for money make them >consciously want to be DEs? Short of the Imperius Curse, I am curious >to know what others think about this. Well, I think there are always those like Wormtail who will go to V's side because he doesn't have the spine to oppose him. But I don't think this describes any of Harry's "inner circle". IMHO, what we really need to worry about is what sides the various magical creatures will take -- the centaurs, the giant spiders, etc. And then there's the snakes -- I've said in the past that if D sent Hagrid as an envoy to the giants, he should send Harry as an envoy to the snakes... -- Dave From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 5 21:57:55 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 21:57:55 -0000 Subject: Fawkes and basilisk - Slytherins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fjkl3+9njc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20239 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" wrote: > It just occurred to me that if a basilisk kills with a glance and petrifies > with its reflection, why didn't anything happen to Fawkes when he pecked at > its eyes? Does it only kill mortal creatures? Is Fawkes immune to it because > he's a magical creature? > > And a post I made to Syrina's Snape list: > > I often wonder why Dumbledore keeps the Slytherins around. Are there any > good ones? I'd imagine if a Slytherin did, by some miracle, turn out good, > he/she'd > be very powerful. And is Salazar Slytherin evil? I know he created the > Chamber of Secrets because of the rivalry with Gryffindore, but there must > have > been some reason the other three founders agreed to work with him to build > Hogwarts. > > Vicky, who has too much time on her hands This is, I fear, another "suspension of disbelief" issue, but what always surprised me was that Colin Creevey was actually looking through the lens of his camera when he saw the Basilisk. Why? Did he hear it slithering along and thought that he could hear something worth photographing? Did he see the basilisk from behind before it turned on him? I want to know! Catherine From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 22:04:14 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:04:14 -0000 Subject: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <9fj926+cgf1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fjl0u+sckv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20240 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > > They do research. The Wolfsbane Potion is a relatively new potion > for lycanthropy. IIRC, in SS/PS, Harry saw a book in Flourish & > Botts called New Hexes (or something along those lines) that > included the Jelly-Legs curse. Dumbledore discrovered the 12 uses > for Dragon's Blood. Then there's the activities of that mysterious > Department of Mysteries. > > It wouldn't surprize me if there have been wizards and witches who > have studied why Muggles are Muggles and why there are Squibs. True, but I have to wonder if these would count as scientific research as we understand it. After all, genetic research can only go so far on Punnett squares and monastic gardens. When I read of Dumbledore discovering the 12 uses for Dragon's Blood, I envision the Edisonian type of directed trial and error that gave us the light bulb. Similarly, the discovery of the Wolfsbane potion seems to be about on the same level as preparing foxglove or willow bark or finding new drugs in our times by using the reports of the indigenous peoples of the Amazon or South Pacific. It seems to me that a search for the magic gene would require greater science than the wizarding community uses.... ....Craig From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jun 5 22:24:52 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:24:52 -0000 Subject: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <9fjl0u+sckv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fjm7k+o0ek@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20241 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > It seems to me that a search for the magic gene would require > greater science than the wizarding community uses....> I never thought about witches and wizards having different genes. I like that. I'm still curious about what people think about witches and wizards being able to use more of their brains than Muggles do. Is that even possible? I mean, if I could use more than the 12% of my brain that I am capable of using now, would I be able to move things with my mind or something? Maybe that just sounds dumb... --jenny from ravenclaw**************************************** From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 22:41:14 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 15:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <9fhg9m+3qgv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010605224114.27615.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20242 --- rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote: > Let's be fair. All they did was to dress up in a > scary costume. > How wrong is that, really? They dressed up with malicious intent. Remember that seeing the Dementors last time made Harry fall off his broom, plummet 50 feet, and nearly die. Malfoy and company specifically intended that Harry at the least be distracted and lose the game, and at the most be seriously injured. Perhaps expulsion was not warranted, but disqualification from the Quiddich Cup or declaring Slytherin's next game an automatic loss, etc would certainly be an appropriate punishment. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ebonyink at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 22:52:00 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:52:00 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20243 Bugg wrote: >I first thought the Weasleys were named in alphabetical order. >Bill, Charley, Fred, George, Percy, Ron, Virginia [Ginny] >Than I realized Percy was in the wrong spot. >Could it be Edward Percival Weasley? > I think that the names we are given in canon *are* their names if Harry is a given name and not a nickname as well... how fond are the British of nicknames? It seems to depend from culture to culture... But I'd like to think that their names are William, Charles, Percival, Frederick, George, Ronald, and Virginia. Delightfully medieval. ;-) --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mlmnb at msn.com Tue Jun 5 23:00:11 2001 From: mlmnb at msn.com (mlmnb) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:00:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 945 References: <991738448.2220.51190.l9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003f01c0ee13$47b97660$8288163f@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20244 Just a few random thoughts: 1. Percy's jammies--instead of analyzing the deeper, darker issues Percy deals with, please, they are all kids, magical or otherwise. Don't any of you have ornery brothers? If I had brothers like the twins, I'd probably have my badge and any other precious item with me at all times, including bedtime!!! I'd probably even keep my homework under my pillow. 2. Names--thoroughly enjoying the nine muses site (referred to in yesterday's postings) that explains names. JKR makes good use of most her characters' names. Does seem that the main characters all have pretty straightforward proper English names. 3. Quidditch-- I can see where some people who don't like sports may not enjoy the play by play. having coached my son's soccer team, I really do get into those pages, as I can imagine most of the young readers do too. Sorry, hope I'm not taking up too much space! Dane - Ravenclaw ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 6:54 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 945 > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > There are 25 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: Ron's wand Re: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters > From: "Priscilla Spencer" > 2. Re: Pretty Fly (for that Snape Guy) [filk] > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > 3. Re: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > 4. Re: Chapter 13 Summary > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > 5. Re: Rita Skeeter Bug > From: JamiDeise at aol.com > 6. Re: Turning to the Dark Side > From: JamiDeise at aol.com > 7. Re: I don't get it > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > 8. Re: Rita Skeeter Bug > From: "Trina" > 9. Re: Rita Skeeter Bug > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > 10. Re: Snape and vampirism > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > 11. Re: Hermione, Dueling > From: "Vicky Ra" > 12. Re: Chapter 13 Summary > From: "Vicky Ra" > 13. Re: Rita Skeeter Bug > From: Lindsay Stirton > 14. Re: Re: I don't get it > From: "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" > 15. Map again - Lack of TV - PA 12/13 questions > From: "Amy Z" > 16. MM's Bathroom Location / Thanks > From: floridian127 at yahoo.com > 17. Re: How are wizards named? (was I don't get it) > From: "Vicky Ra" > 18. Re: MM's Bathroom Location / Thanks > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > 19. Re: How are wizards named? (was I don't get it) > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > 20. Re: Chapter 13 Summary > From: Melanie Brackney > 21. Re: Turning to the Dark Side > From: Melanie Brackney > 22. Re: SHIP H/H (Hermione/Hermione) - was Chapter 12 Summary > From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com > 23. Re: Turning to the Dark Side...OT sort of > From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com > 24. Re: Mottos > From: jenfold at yahoo.com > 25. Turning to the Dark side/Destinies/Next DADA teacher > From: "Florence" > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:33:12 -0500 > From: "Priscilla Spencer" > Subject: Re: Ron's wand Re: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters > > Both of Ron's wands have had Unicorn tail hair. His second was made of willow (like Lily's) and 14 inches, the second-longest wand mentioned in the series. The longest being, of course, Hagrid's. > > Priscilla Spencer > http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Milz > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, June 04, 2001 7:05 PM > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's wand Re: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > > > I like that comment about Ron sacrificing himself, such as in the > > Chess scene. When this is put with the centaur's remarks on always > > the innocent are the first to suffer etc. (obvious paraphrase), and > > the fact that Cedric's wand core is unicorn, as is Ron's this seems > > possible. Are there any other hints out there that Ron may be the > > one to die? > > > > That is a very interesting observation about Cedric's and Ron's > wand. If Ron does die I highly doubt it will be until the end of the > book. JKR is very attached to his character that is why I say this. > Ron seems a lot more susceptible to things for one thing he's not as > observant as Hermione and Harry. He also has a much larger > family...why is this a reason? Well, look at all the people he might > have to sacrifice himself for, I believe he would for any of his > family or Hermione and Harry. However, I still think that Ron will > live. However he is the hero's best friend, and the hero's best > friend well often times is always very susceptible. However, not > everyone is going to die...this isn't a tragedy I'm sure. I believe > it will have a happy ending, leaving many of the characters..including > some that we still love and care about. But the chessboard thing has > made me really think about the possibility of him dying much more...I > hope not though, cuz Ron is one of my favorite characters. > > > > Sorry for using up a message but my books are on-loan right now. > > Wasn't it the wand that Ron had in SS/PS and CoS that had the > unicorn's hair? I seem to remember something that the wood was cracked > in some places and exposed the unicorn's hair. That was Charlie's old > wand, right? Then Ron got a new wand in PoA, did that wand have a > unicorn hair core too, I can't remember if it did or not? > > Milz (who's lost without her books) > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:16:54 -0000 > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > Subject: Re: Pretty Fly (for that Snape Guy) [filk] > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Mags" wrote: > > > Snape Lovers, this is for you! > > > > > > Pretty Fly (for that Snape Guy) > > > (to the tune of 'Pretty Fly for a White Guy' by The Offspring) > > > > > > > Normally filks make my skull itch but this one had me fighting > > not to burst into hysterical laughter at work! > > > > thank you for a good, good laugh! > > Seconded - very, very good, especially the action! > > May I share my theory for _Order of the Phoenix_? > The phoenix's song is reputed to be magical; I think Harry, > Fawkes, and the gang are going to form a rock band and play > in Quidditch stadia around Europe. > > And if Colin and Ginny want to have a go at Blink 182's > _All The Small Things_, that is fine by me. > > Robert Carnegie > Meretricious! > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:21:55 -0000 > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > Subject: Re: Complexity of Characters -- Percy -- Survival of Characters > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 6/3/2001 9:59:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > ilovbrian_99 at y... writes: > > > > > > << I have my thoughts that very few of the characters will survive > > the > > > series. > > > > I disagree. I think most will be affected in some big way, but not > > all that many killed outright. Actually now I've written the rest of > > this post I've changed my mind. Maybe there will be quite alot of > > fatalities. > > Snip detailed speculation but there are a whole lot of Weasleys, > we could lose a few of /them/ without noticing much :-S > > Now, don't tell me that's a horrible, horrible thing to say - > I know it is. > > Robert Carnegie > Meretricious! > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:31:18 -0000 > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > Subject: Re: Chapter 13 Summary > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > > > 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, > > > Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should > > > it have been more? less? detention? > > > > I agree with Jamieson - I'd have expelled him. Perhaps not, but such > > tactics could at least have got Slytherin disqualified from the > > Quidditch Tournament that year. > > Let's be fair. All they did was to dress up in a scary costume. > How wrong is that, really? > > Robert Carnegie > Meretricious! > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:34:51 EDT > From: JamiDeise at aol.com > Subject: Re: Rita Skeeter Bug > > In a message dated 6/4/2001 7:24:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sdrk1 at yahoo.com > writes: > > << Actually, I'm pretty sure she is registered. Paraphrasing from Ch. > 31 (p.614, U.S.) of GoF, Hermione is tring to figure out how Rita > (that cow!) is listening in AND getting past Moody's eye, when she > gets a dreamy look and then says, "I think I've got it...just give me > two seconds in the library to check it out." I assume that she is > going to the library to check the animagi list. After all, it's been > a year (maybe more) since she looked up McGonagall, and she proabably > didn't pay any attention to the name Rita Skeeter the last time, > considering that she didn't know who Rita Skeeter (that cow!) was at > the time. >> > > > I got the impression that she was making sure Rita *wasn't* registered. Just > knowing Rita was an animagus wouldn't be enough to "get her." > > Jami > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:34:50 EDT > From: JamiDeise at aol.com > Subject: Re: Turning to the Dark Side > > In a message dated 6/4/2001 6:48:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > meboriqua at aol.com writes: > > << I am talking > about the characters who choose to side with Voldie and his > supporters, perform the Cruciatius Curse, turn their noses up at > Muggle-borns and so on, which is a drastic thing to do, IMO. >> > > Yeah, I think it's pretty drastic too! Since Wormtail is the only character > we know who has betrayed his friends and gone over to the dark side, let's > take a look at his characteristics as an example of what it might take. > According to McGonagall's recollections in PoA, he wasn't very good at magic, > he openly idolized Lupin, James and Sirius, to the point of following them > around like a little puppy dog, he was little and fat. Later in PoA, he > whines that Voldemort was so powerful, he had no choice, he would have killed > him -- to which Sirius rightly sneered that he should have died rather than > betray his friends. So what happened in between the time he was a fat little > puppy dog at Hogwarts, to his ultimate betrayal? Lily and James married and > had Harry ... Sirius was best man and Harry's godfather. Somehow, the two > became very important in the fight against Voldemort. Lupin was still tight > with them as well. > > Perhaps Peter had grown weary of never being good enough as his friends. He > saw them become powerful, successful, find love ... and slowly his > hero-worship turned to jealousy and hate. So he decided to trump them the > only way he could ... proving that he, Peter Pettigrew, smarter than any of > them ever thought. > > So who among Harry's circle could fall into this trap? I don't think it's > anyone we know very well at this point. That's why I think it could be > someone like Colin ... all we really know about him is how much he worships > Harry. > > Jami > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:36:51 -0000 > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > Subject: Re: I don't get it > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > > > > Maybe JKR will > > give Remus Lupin a twin brother Romulus. Or maybe > > that would be too precious. > > > > Of course, he received his name at birth and was then > > bitten by a werewolf as a child. Perhaps his parents > > should have thought better of the name they gave him. > > If ever someone's destiny were in his name... > > Rather bad luck for Virginia Weasley, too, then. :-) > > (Have we had a Prospero yet?) > > But Neville Longbottom is a short - > > Robert Carnegie > Meretricious! > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:46:53 -0000 > From: "Trina" > Subject: Re: Rita Skeeter Bug > > Priscilla Spencer wrote: > > Actually, when Hermione spills the beans to Harry and Ron (p. 727 > US ed, I can't find my UK copy), she specified that Rita is an > unregistered Animagus. However, you do bring up an interesting point. > Why would Hermione need to go to the library? Thoughts? > > I think she ran to the library to see if Skeeter were listed. When > Hermione saw that Skeeter's name was not among the 7 registered, she > knew. > > Trina > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:48:54 -0000 > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > Subject: Re: Rita Skeeter Bug > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea wrote: > > --- Stephanie Roark Keener wrote: > > > On the subject that Rita Skeeter is an unregistered > > > animagus, which > > > people keep mentioning from time to time: > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure she is registered. > > > > Actually, Hermione says at the very beginning of the > > GOF explanation that Rita is "an unregistered > > Animagus". > > The quill (which I haven't got to yet) doesn't need you to > register, for one thing. So maybe there's a Register of > Unregistered Animagi. > > (Hermione says in PS that many wizards aren't strong on logic...) > > Robert Carnegie > Meretricious! > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 10 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 02:58:06 -0000 > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > Subject: Re: Snape and vampirism > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jennye & Michael Woolf" wrote: > > First off, I want to introduce myself to the list since this is my first > > posting. My name is Jennye, I am 29, married and have a baby who doesn't yet > > appreciate HP, but I am sure he will! > > > > That said, I want to jump in on this thread. I had just been following it > > and was on the Snape-is-not-a-vampire side when I was rereading PoA. After > > Snape assigned the werewolf essay to the DADA class to try to get the class > > to realize that Lupin was a werewolf, Lupin later assigned a vampire essay > > to the class (granted it was a few months later, but still...) It was the > > only essay that they discussed at length that they had to do for Lupin, > > *and* Lupin made a point of mentioning that he was having the students write > > the vampire essay when he rescued Harry and Ron from Snape's office when > > Snape found the Marauder's Map on Harry. > > > > Just my 2 Knuts on the subject. > > > > Jennye > > That's good spotting! I'd missed that completely. > Admittedly, I've missed a lot of things that are > out in plain sight. Speed reading, I'm afraid. > > I'm not sure that I want Snape to be a vampire, though. > I'm still dodging detailed discussion of GoF until I > get my own copy, but I've picked up that it's revealed > that he has - well, a criminal record, let's say - > and is a rather more sympathetic character than he > seems to be at first (or so some people think). > I feel that that's enough trouble for one character > to have to cope with, without craving the blood of > his students all the time as well. That's assuming > that being a vampire is inconvenient in daily life, > which might not be the case once JKR has worked over > the concept. > > Robert Carnegie > Meretricious! > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:57:47 -1000 > From: "Vicky Ra" > Subject: Re: Hermione, Dueling > > Amy: > > I think Hermione stands up to intimidation pretty well. Holding > > Lucius's stare at the QWC, keeping on with SPEW when most of her > > classmates (including her best friends) think it's laughable, > > withstanding the ridicule that came along with the Daily > > Prophet/Witch Weekly articles, taking on Rita Skeeter . . . What do > > you see that makes you think she's easily intimidated? > > You have excellent points. I could never have kept up with SPEW. However, > she ought to have asked the house-elves what they thought. Her intentions > were good, but I suppose she always has a "wiser-than-though" attitude. As > far as the ridicule from the Rita Skeeter article goes, I think she could > take that because she knew it was a lie. I'm not sure what was so brave > about catching Rita. I personally would have killed her. Well, maybe I > wouldn't if I knew she was human. Then again, I did want Pettigrew dead. > > Amber: I mean, who else would take on tons of > extra classes and live longer than 24 hour days? > > Definitely not me. > > Amber: In summary, Hermione is a powerhouse of will; nobody get in her way, > she'll mow you down! > > Agreed. Sometimes, she's too stubborn, to the point of disregarding her > friends' feelings. What I wonder is why she didn't try to clear her name > with Molly, and why she never confronts Snape on his horrible treatment of > her and other Gryffs. I'm kinda hoping for a confrontation between the two > of them in a later book. Also, she and McGonagall both seem afraid to say > "Voldemort," and I say Voldy has an advantage over them if they fear him. > Then again, I'd probably fear him, too, unless, like Sirius and Lupin, I had > some reason to be upset with him, and my anger overrode all rational > thought. In short, you guys are right that she has moral courage, to stand > up for ridiculous ideas. However, I believe she's afraid of failure, and > she's afraid of being wrong, and so, whenever she is, she doesn't admit it. > Her self-worth seems to depend on her cleverness, which could work against > her. > > On another topic, have any of you noticed that there are almost no scenes > with women duelling? I know there was the dueling club scene, but then, that > seemed to have devolved more or less into a cat fight. I want to see > something where Hermione actually gets to show some of *her* power, instead > of Harry and Ron always doing the fighting. > > Vicky > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 12 > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:47:53 -1000 > From: "Vicky Ra" > Subject: Re: Chapter 13 Summary > > 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he > just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? > > He most likely did see the Grim. As for not telling Ron, I wouldn't, either, > if my friend believed in it as much as Ron did. > > 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they > just a waste of pages? > > At the risk of incurring the wrath of all the Quidditch lovers here, I say, > for the most part, i.e., the descriptions of the matches are a waste of > pages. However, they often contain important bits of the plot, so I tolerate > them. I hate sports in general, so of course, I wouldn't like this. > > 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, > Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it > have been more? less? detention? > > It should have been 50 points each. Either that, or twenty-five points and a > detention. I don't think it was a crime worthy of expulsion, however, > because Harry did defend himself against it. > > 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy > and gang? > > Probably the full stag, as Lupin had commented on it after the match. > > 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the > others will forget he *is* Head Boy? > > Percy has a right to be proud of his status. However, pinning the badge to > his pajamas was somewhat obsessive. He annoys me, personally. > > 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? > > Brave for owning up to his mistake and getting yelled at. Foolish for > leaving those passwords around in the first place. > > Good discussion questions, BTW. > > Vicky > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 13 > Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 02:19:24 -0500 > From: Lindsay Stirton > Subject: Re: Rita Skeeter Bug > > > > Actually, when Hermione spills the beans to Harry and Ron (p. 727 US ed, I > > can't find my UK copy), she specified that Rita is an unregistered Animagus. > > However, you do bring up an interesting point. Why would Hermione need to go > > to the library? Thoughts? > > Well, naturally she would have to check the Animagi Register, to see whether > she was registered. Only if she was unregistered would she be breaking the > law. > > Lindsay Stirton > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 14 > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 23:49:28 -0400 > From: "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" > Subject: Re: Re: I don't get it > > > > If ever someone's destiny were in his name... > > > Rather bad luck for Virginia Weasley, too, then. :-) > > Actually, we don't know her name is Virginia, do we? It could just as > easily be Genevieve. > -- > Rebecca J. Bohner > rebeccaj at pobox.com > http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 15 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 01:14:38 -0400 > From: "Amy Z" > Subject: Map again - Lack of TV - PA 12/13 questions > > Allyse wrote: > > >An oft mentioned theory is that only a fellow Marauder can see MWPP on the > >map, which is why Lupin was able to see Wormtail; but the counter argument > >is that Snape was able to see Moony when he found the map on Lupin's desk. > > > >I just wondered if anyone had advanced the theory to include the person who > >first *activated* the map. > >Then, when Snape came into the office with the potion and discovered the > >map, Lupin would be visible, since it was Lupin himself who activitated. > > You are so smart! That makes perfect sense. (Send it to Jo so she'll have > a ready answer when some 9-year-old asks her how come no one ever noticed > Peter before.) > > Catherine wrote: > > >do all the Muggleborn children have withdrawals from TV when they go > to Hogwarts? > > Nope, 'cause being at Hogwarts is way better than anything TV has to offer. > That's why supposedly hyperactive, TV-addicted boys will spend three days > straight reading a 700-page book about it, foregoing TV altogether. > > >4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. > >Pretend this is the first time you've read PoA) > > Well, if you've done your werewolf essay it is. > > I'm not sure when I became sure that Lupin was a werewolf--I swear, when I > read OoP I'm going to make running notes so I can look back and see what I > theorized when--but I think I got it by this point in the story. I didn't > get that his Boggart turned into the moon, though. I thought it really was > a crystal ball and that he didn't like them because someone looking into one > would know what he was . . . at least I think that's what I thought. I also > strongly suspected that he =was= helping Sirius into the castle, so so much > for my prescience. > > Jamieson wrote: > > >It should have been a lot more. I think Malfoy should have been expelled. > >::hides from those who are now booing him at the thought of having Malfoy > >gone:: > > Tell you what. We'll make you and the booers happy by keeping Malfoy at > Hogwarts, but adding to his punishment that he must wear painfully tight > leather trousers at all times. > > BTW, the points system =is= very arbitrary; it seems to depend more on the > mood of the teacher than anything else. Coming soon to a Lexicon near you: > a complete list of all cases of points being added or subtracted so you can > judge for yourself: is McGonagall fairer than Snape? is Snape harder on > Gryffindors than on any other students? and what the heck is Percy's > problem? > > Indigo wrote: > > >Add to that that his other best friend is a know-it-all who takes *every* > >opportunity to prove she's smart and the boys are dumb and couldn't > >possibly form a coherent thought without her. > > >Add to *that* that not only has Hermione showed zero respect for Ron's > >feelings, she has now showed zero respect for Harry's feelings, > > These are surely Ron's views, at times at least, but I respectfully submit > that he needs to get a grip. > > Hermione may be a know-it-all, but she doesn't think the boys are dumb and > by PoA, she seldom treats them as if they are. The "isn't it obvious?" > about what's wrong with Lupin really stands out, in fact (and I don't much > blame her for being snippy at that point since they've been giving her the > silent treatment for some weeks). > > As for showing zero respect for Harry's feelings: Hermione respects Harry's > feelings, not to mention his life; it's Harry who isn't taking the danger to > himself seriously. If I were Hermione or Ron, I'd be worried that he had a > death wish at this point. He's just that week learned that Black, for all > intents and purposes, murdered his parents; he knows Black has been in the > castle; and he still isn't taking Black's threat against his life seriously. > Ron is being even more irresponsible not to try to rein Harry in (Harry's > own unwillingness to face facts is more understandable to me). I hand it to > Hermione for being the only one of the three mature enough to look > objectively at this gift. Her only misstep, IMO, is that she should have > said exactly what she was thinking when she first saw the Firebolt: not > just "I don't think you should ride it" but "I think Black sent it to you." > That would at least have given Harry the opportunity to weigh her > objections. > > >And she's convinced herself that it's instinct for a cat to chase a rat. > > Is this something one has to convince oneself of? Sounds like plain truth > to me. > > I'm confused, Indigo--aren't you an R/Her? How can you want to see R/H if > you love Ron and can't stand Hermione? > > Amy Z > who loves 'em both to death > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > "Damn it, all this eye-twinkling is making my pupils itch." > --Dumbledore, "The Magical Mystika Tour," Rave > > www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=93315 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 16 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 05:30:42 -0000 > From: floridian127 at yahoo.com > Subject: MM's Bathroom Location / Thanks > > In CoS Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is stated to be on the > first floor. Then when H/H/R run up the stairs and find > Mrs Norris petrified they were on the second floor. They > past the feast in the great hall, rounded the first floor > and leaped up steps to the next floor [not exact]. Later > it is on the first floor again. > > Write off as incorrect mention or moving staircase? > > I checked lexicon and Steve has it on the second floor. > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_floors.html > > > OT: I have gotten rain after posting message 19882 > I know none of you kind Witches and Wizards would break magic > law and affect the weather.[wink] But I am sure some of you > wanted to, and for that I am grateful. We still need plenty > more.[ChOiUnGtH] > > Thanks, Floridian. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 17 > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:12:20 -1000 > From: "Vicky Ra" > Subject: Re: How are wizards named? (was I don't get it) > > Barbara: Of course, he received his name at birth and was then bitten by a > werewolf as a child. Perhaps his parents should have thought better of the > name they gave him. > If ever someone's destiny were in his name... > > I've noticed that names often reflect the personalities of their owners. > Could it be that wizarding parents name their children when they have a > better idea of the child's personality? I know Voldy was named right away, > but his mother was dying. But then, there's the problem of what to call > children if they are babies, if they don't have a permanent name till > childhood. This question comes to mind because I hear Native Americans do > that. Children are given temporary names until more of their character is > known, so they get a fitting name. Actually, I'm not sure if this is still > practiced. I know it *was* a century or two ago. > > Vicky > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 18 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 06:28:57 -0000 > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > Subject: Re: MM's Bathroom Location / Thanks > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., floridian127 at y... wrote: > > In CoS Moaning Myrtle's bathroom is stated to be on the > > first floor. Then when H/H/R run up the stairs and find > > Mrs Norris petrified they were on the second floor. They > > past the feast in the great hall, rounded the first floor > > and leaped up steps to the next floor [not exact]. Later > > it is on the first floor again. > > > > Write off as incorrect mention or moving staircase? > > > > I checked lexicon and Steve has it on the second floor. > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_floors.html > > Steve does describe it as out of order... :-) > > Lucky Myrtle has a maisonette bathroom? > > Robert Carnegie > Meretricious! > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 19 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 06:49:16 -0000 > From: rja.carnegie at excite.com > Subject: Re: How are wizards named? (was I don't get it) > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" wrote: > > Barbara: Of course, he received his name at birth and was then bitten by a > > werewolf as a child. Perhaps his parents should have thought better of the > > name they gave him. > > If ever someone's destiny were in his name... > > > > I've noticed that names often reflect the personalities of their owners. > > Could it be that wizarding parents name their children when they have a > > better idea of the child's personality? I know Voldy was named right away, > > but his mother was dying. But then, there's the problem of what to call > > children if they are babies, if they don't have a permanent name till > > childhood. This question comes to mind because I hear Native Americans do > > that. Children are given temporary names until more of their character is > > known, so they get a fitting name. Actually, I'm not sure if this is still > > practiced. I know it *was* a century or two ago. > > Someone told me there were 500 "nations" of Native Americans > with, presumably, various customs. Isn't there some business > of being crucified with hooks - > > But you're right that we don't know for sure how _some_ > wizarding families name their children. I say "some" because > the Weasleys, for one, named at least Ginny _before_ she was > old enough to go to Hogwarts after Charlie, Bill, Percy, Fred, > George, and Ron. > > Is that the lot? And what's the theme? Charles, William > and George were kings of the United Kingdom (let's leave > it at that); Frederick is a royal name elsewhere; if it _is_ > Virginia, that was named after Queen Elizabeth's most dubious > virtue (small pun); Ronald Reagan was president of the U.S.; > Percy, Percival, um, Blackadder's sidekick - blame the milkman, > perhaps. And the father of them all is - gosh, Arthur! > > And so that is the secret of book 7 - Ron Weasley's dad > is revealed to be King Arthur of Britain. (Or not.) > > Remus Lupin may, indeed, be from another country and another > culture, where wizard children's names are more meaningful. > Only Hogwarts in Britain, under Dumbledore, would have him. > If Lupin is the patronymic (otherwise he'd be Professor Remus), > well that's just bad luck. If it _is_ a patronymic and not > just an adjective. > > Robert Carnegie > Meretricious! > (well, yes, it is an adjective, but - ) > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 20 > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 00:31:17 -0700 (PDT) > From: Melanie Brackney > Subject: Re: Chapter 13 Summary > > > 1. Why does Hermione not exhibit the least bit of sympathy for Ron on > the loss of Scabbers? Does Ron just have it in for Crookshanks > because he jumped on his head in Diagon Alley? The only reason that I can find that Hermione is not really showing much sympathy for Ron is that she is just over stressed and on the verge of a mental breakdown. Everything that is coming out of every persons mouth is starting to get on her nerves and here is Ron attacking the one thing that isn't getting on her nerves becaue he can't talk! Not that I am condoning Hermione's actions at all, nor Ron. Ron has it in for a lot of things right now. He has a lot of pent out anger (which has been discussed before) and Crookshanks is just an easy target. Has anyone else ever noticed that Ron and Hermione rarely ever just talk, they are always bickering of sorts? I'm not sure but eventually the lack of communication between those 2 is going to cause major problems, it already has. > > 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he > just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? > He saw Sirius not the grim. He didn't want Ron to worry much, and he also didn't want him to think he was crazy, and Harry thought he was crazy at that point. > 3. Do you like the descriptions of the Quidditch matches? Are they > just a waste of pages? > NO, I think they make a wonderful diversion from the actual story, and sometimes things happen at the matches that are important to the story. However, sometimes I think they are repetitive. But for the most part I think they are well written and fun. > 4. Only 50 points from Slytherin for the dementor trick? (Harry, > Hermione, and Neville lost 150 in the Norbert aftermath.) Should it > have been more? less? detention? Should have atleast been 50 points each, not just total and a detention. > > 5. What did the spectators see when the patronus charged down Malfoy > and gang? > > 6. Why did Percy pin his HB badge to his jammies? Is he afraid the > others will forget he *is* Head Boy? > Percy has some pride issues going on, this is why I dislike him so much. He is soo full of himself. But maybe its some sort of nice little important/security thing for him. Kind of like me wearing my cross all the time as because I'm a Christian. > 7. Neville: brave, or "abysmally foolish"? > Both > 8. How did Sirius Black get into the castle?I have no idea but it boils down to the Dementors not doing a very good job. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 21 > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 01:15:24 -0700 (PDT) > From: Melanie Brackney > Subject: Re: Turning to the Dark Side > > > Okay, > > My Percy speculation is what it is mere speculation. I think that I see a LOT of similarities between Voldie's deatheaters and the Hitler's Nazi's. If we are going on that level there seem to be two characters that come to my mind in the Weasley family that would be persuaded; Percy and Ron. Percy is obssessed with power and rules. I think that if faced with the decision between what is right and what is breaking the law, I think at first he would go with not breaking the law. He has so much to risk career wise. However, once he sees that career gains will not make him happy if he looses the all his family and friends. I don't know....it's just he idolizes people and sometime when you do that, you are more likely to be absentminded when they are making mistakes. > > Ron is another character that I'd be worried about. This is because Voldie and his deatheaters probably play on insecure, misunderstood, ignored people. I know this sounds silly but we could be looking a wormtail to some degree with Ron. Before you go throwing things at me hear me out, I think that Ron often does feel like a third wheel, even though he most certainly is not. I think that he seems overshadowed by his extremely skillful best friends Harry and Hermione. He is also overshadowed by his family. From this wonderful quidditch player, Charlie, to the head boys Bill and Percy, to the notorious troublemakers Fred and George. And Ginny is the only girl so I don't think he feels he has to compete with her as much. The only thing he is known for is Harry's best friend. Which is awesome but where is it really getting him. I think the glory and fame, and power of the dark side might seem appealing to Ron. Although, I hope and pray that Ron would never turn out like that..cuz he's my favorite character! Oh and I hope you all understand this post. I'm didn't get much sleep so I'm kind of rambeling. > > > > Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 22 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 08:39:30 -0000 > From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com > Subject: Re: SHIP H/H (Hermione/Hermione) - was Chapter 12 Summary > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > > One thing I've wondered about - why couldn't Hermione have used the > > turner to dial up a few extra hours of naptime? Maybe she was being > > too Type A to think of it (she would have never thought to use to > > save Black and Buckbeak without Dumbledore's prompting). Or maybe, > > just like meeting your past or future self, terrible things have > > happened to wizards who overslept while time-turning! > > > > and what would Parvati et al have made of two Hermiones in bed? > > David > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 23 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:40:24 -0000 > From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com > Subject: Re: Turning to the Dark Side...OT sort of > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > > I've been reading postings that speculate about which characters > will > > "turn" to the Dark Side. Something about that is bothering me. > > > > What exactly does it take to "turn" to the Dark Side anyway? > > [snip] > > --jenny from ravenclaw******************************** > > What bothers me is why it is referred to as the 'Dark Side', by the > people on the 'dark side'. Why they wouldn't call it the 'good side, > the sensible side, the practical side ? > > Rowena > > (who also has the same problem with Star Wars) > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 24 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 10:31:37 -0000 > From: jenfold at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Mottos > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 6/3/2001 11:08:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... writes: > > > > > > << Slytherin: > > > Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum > saxum immane > > > mittam. (translated, I have a catapult - give me all your money > or I'll fling > > > an enormous rock at hour head - again, Henry Beard) > > > >> > > > > > > wouldn't Slytherin's motto be in Parseltongue? hissssss hiss > hisssssssss > > > > Good idea - but I think none of _them_, masters or students, can > speak > > Parseltongue either. Bit of a drawback, that. > > > > Given Salazar Slytherin's troubled relationship with the school, > > how about "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me > > as a member"? Bit long, though - still, they could inscribe it > > lengthwise on their heraldic serpent. > > > > There's a musical instrument called the serpent, but "The note > > depends very much on the embouchure" is as near to there as I want > > to go :-) If that was their motto, it has the merit (as they might > > see it) that when you find out what it means, it's too late. > > > > Is there a wizarding version of "All your base are belong to us"? > > Or, plain and simple - but subtle - "Break a leg". > > > > "Snake eyes, you lose"? > > > > Robert Carnegie > > Meretricious! > > How about "The end justifies the means." If Macheavelli had gone to > Hogwarts he'd be a Slytherin. > > Jen > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 25 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 10:54:00 -0000 > From: "Florence" > Subject: Turning to the Dark side/Destinies/Next DADA teacher > > Turning to the dark side. In my opinion this will come down to > "choosing what is easy over what is right". Only the really evil gits > will wander along to Lord Voldemort and swear allegience to him of > their own volition; others will be blackmailed, tricked and bullied > into helping the Dark cause and may or may not be actually recruited > as Death Eaters. > > For instance: Ludo Bagman has a big Goblin problem and could easily > be approached by say Malfoy who could suggest that he would get the > goblins off his back in return for passing information from the > ministry. Of course this assumes that Ludo is not already a Death > Eater and that his disappearance after the third task was really him > responding to Voldemorts summons. > > Percy's (and other nice guys) choices are likely to be more subtle. > He would certainly be more strongly morally opposed to passing > ministry info directly, but, being rule bound may follow instructions > from infiltrators of the ministry without thinking. Or go down the > route of Barty Crouch senior and (for career progression) ruthlessly > implement dark methods in the fight against the dark side to the > extent that he is no longer morally aware of the distinction between > right and wrong. > > I really like the suggestion that Colin might parallel Petigrew and be > tempted to the dark side by strong armed bully tactics. He could then > be the insignificant bod that nobody suspects but later turns out bad. > The reason I especially like the suggestion is that this leaves > Neville for some nobler destiny. I'd like him to discover a herb with > strong mind-curative properties (maybe Longbottom Leaf, which should > be smoked - as in the Lord of the Rings). With this he could revive > his parents and restore his own memory (and maybe that of the Armenian > warlock who really knows how to perform the complex Homorphus charm > that could cure Lupin). This would enable him to become Herbology > professor (which has been rumoured), although I guess that would mean > I should add Professor Sprout (another innocent Hufflepuff) to the > killed-off possibilities. > > Someone was asking about who the next DADA teacher might be, and > nobody has yet proposed Florence!! If it really was Snape she was > kissing, she might know plenty about the Dark Arts. Just a wild guess > though really. > > Florence > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com Tue Jun 5 23:10:41 2001 From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 23:10:41 -0000 Subject: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <9fgb8j+qv6c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fjoth+c1hp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20245 First part Koinonia, second part Pippin.... --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > You must go to *snapefans* and read the vampire theories on that > site. Look for message 272 and 273, my theories ;-). I personally > lean toward Snape being one. I hope you will post your info on that > site also. I do believe you will get more replies over there. I > can't wait to see what you have come up with. We are, however, in > the minority on this That's fine with me! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ha, me too. Guess I better get myself over there... > Regarding the Foe-Glass: > I didn't mention the Foe-Glass in my posts but I think it is a valid point. With everything going on at this time, why is he so concerned with his reflection? He might also be checking to see if anyone else is coming. >>>>>>> True. I lean towards the former, but, heck, why couldn't it be both? > > Yes. I'll include the reference from canon that clinched it for me with the vampire post. > > Please hurry ^_~ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, two other people have already since posted it: Lupin's assigning the vampire essay. This was my canon-clincher; read that scene again when Snape catches Harry just after the mud-slinging scene. Read especially where Snape calls Lupin in to discuss the Map; the last thing Snape says in this scene is "You don't think it more likely that he got it directly from the manufacturers?" Next is when Ron comes barging in and Lupin takes the Map back. Doesn't seem very Snape-like for him not to say another word in all this. THEN is when Lupin tells the boys he needs a word with them about the vampire essay; Harry "didn't dare look at Snape as they left his office,"-- wonder what his expression/reaction was when Lupin mentioned the vampire essay? > If Snape is a vampire, I don't know if we will even see it until book 7. He must have his reasons for hiding what he is and I think he > will continue to do so. >>>>>>> You think it will be that long? I'm really hoping it's revealed in 5... > > If the entire group were ever to agree on *one thing*, something > > tells me it would be this... > > Nope! The vampire issue and the Snape/Lily theory can cause some > heated debates between Snape lovers. >>>>> Ha, oh no, not that. The bit about needing book 5 to come out NOW... > Why can't JKR make up her own type of vampires? I think that is the stumbling block for many people. They are determined to go by what Anne Rice or others have written. I would love to see what JKR would do with vampires. It just seems there are far too many comments > about vampires in the books. Surely they will come into play.>>>>>>> Yes, I agree with all this. My thinking is that she'll take bits and pieces from all the vampire lore, whether ancient or recent, and add her own spin... > Plus..."--even stopper death--"... Oh yes... > > Interesting take on *stopper death*. We also discussed the meaning > of this on snapefans with different responses. > > Can't wait to hear your takes on this subject! >>>>>>>>>>> Don't know if I have anything new to add; I'll post the most applicable info I've found. Lots of other stuff I've found seems to be mostly reiterating the rest. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: > I am really looking forward to your vampire post! Go for it! >>>>>>> Hehheh, I'll put up the relevent info, and then my thoughts/theories/ramblings in another. I even searched the messages and archives for your old posts on it. What happened to Martha? > >> which some people don't like because according to them vampires > have to be dead. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > What if he is?...... (Okay, I don't really buy that, either...) >>Okay, I didn't phrase that carefully...the objection some people have to the part-vampire theory is that vampires, unlike, say, veela, are not alive and therefore cannot have offspring. Thus, there can be no such thing as a part-vampire. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see what you're saying. There's a bit in my vampire stuff about Dhampirs, a vampire's child, in this info, though. As I've been thinking about it, though, is there a reason (from canon) that Snape couldn't be 'undead'? > > The potion theory is plausible. I like the part vampire theory because imo having a dual nature, perhaps even two souls, would explain a lot about Snape, including how he is able to mislead Voldemort who is so good at knowing when someone is lying. >>>>>>>>>> Very interesting. Even the basic idea of dual nature--he's a spiteful and nasty Good Guy. With part-vampire and the potion theory- - couldn't it be both? Kelley From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 23:29:02 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 23:29:02 -0000 Subject: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <9fjm7k+o0ek@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fjpvu+s1u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20246 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > > It seems to me that a search for the magic gene would require > > greater science than the wizarding community uses.... > > I never thought about witches and wizards having different genes. > I like that. In contrast, I'm not too fond of it, for the same reasons that I don't like the midi-chlorian explanation for the Force in Episode 1. Perhaps, it's the scientist in me, who nevertheless longs for faith and would prefer to think that some things are unknowable and greater than we are. Were JKR to dabble in a pseudoscientific explanation of the Muggle/Wizard dichotomy, I think I'd hurl. X^p > I'm still curious about what people think about witches and > wizards being able to use more of their brains than Muggles do. > Is that even possible? I mean, if I could use more than the 12% > of my brain that I am capable of using now, would I be able to > move things with my mind or something? I've always thought the limitations on brain usage mentioned in popular culture were a bit hokey? 12% (or 11% or 10%) of what? Neurons? Synapses? Neurotransmitters? Volume? Mass? Area? The fact is that you use all of your brain to some degree. See: http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html It's a good resource and it links to other pages on the subject. ....Craig, one-hundred-percenter if I can help it ;^) From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 00:09:18 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 00:09:18 -0000 Subject: Why don't I remember Florence? Message-ID: <9fjsbe+1h9m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20247 I am going through all of the posts and I hear all of this stuff about Snape being a vampire and kissing Florence... I really don't remember this at all! Who is Florence? Am I missing something?!?!? From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 00:12:17 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 17:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chapter Summary 12 Message-ID: <20010606001217.27525.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20248 1. Hermione is a very strong minded youn lady. Who is determined to do what is best for herself and her friends. Professor McGonagall had faith in Hermione to use her time travel charm with common sense. Hermione took on more than she should have, but she did it. The teachers had more on their minds about where Sirius was going to strike next. 2.Typical teen behavior when it comes to school sports! They wanted to win and put Slytherin in last place or any place but winner. They didn't see a danger but a tool to win! They acted without thinking. 3.Probably with a sneakometer or some other device that he had. I really don't know. 4.Actually,I really didn't know. But his name means wolf, Lupin. So it just fits him I guess. 5.Probably not, but he has the winning spirit! So he will push his team to the winners circle so to speak. 6. Death the finial frontier, I would not want to go by way of a Dementor! Would be like kissing a corpse with the worst case of bad breath! Even a life saver would run for cover! 7.Well, worrying about his rat's health, worrying if his best friend get caught by Sirius, wanting his House to win, and worrying if Hermione's brain can hold anything more,I can understand his anger with her! Wanda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com Wed Jun 6 00:24:40 2001 From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 00:24:40 -0000 Subject: Vampire Info--rather long Message-ID: <9fjt88+8580@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20249 All the * and (!) are mine, and almost all (parenthesed comments). When not mine, it is noted. There's not really any canon discussion in this (some comments from me about whether this relates to Snape), just vampire lore. If uninterested, please delete. ------Kelley The Legendary Vampire by James Dilworth In some form or another the Vampire has been a part of most the cultures in the world, but as most people would think, part of ancient legends and lore. The word Vampire itself is derived from the Russian word Vampir, pi being the verb to drink. Put most simply, a vampire is a dead person who returns in physical or spirit form and drinks blood of animals or humans to continue their existence. People said to most likely become vampires are magicians, people who are werewolves (!), the excommunicated, people who have committed suicide, murderers and those attacked by vampires, die and become vampires. In Europe, the Vampire legends have been most strongly believed in (before Bram Stoker's book, Dracula) by the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe, although there are cases of Vampirism in Medieval England and France. From 1730-35 Hungary, the Balkans, Poland, Bulgaria (!) and Bohemia (now the Czech Republic) had a Vampire Epidemic, an accusation that was never proved (most possibly caused by an outbreak by Cholera, due to the fact many cholera victims were buried prematurely and tried to escape from their coffin, a sign of vampirism). The United States itself has had many outbreaks of Vampirism in New England as in 1854, 1888, and 1890, all again attributed to cholera. The legendary vampire of Europe's most notable features are extreme paleness, finger marks around a seemingly freshly dug grave, an allergic reaction to sunlight (sunlight usually kills them), a swollen and gorged appearance if the vampire has just fed upon blood, no signs of the corruption of the body even years after the burial and the lack of rigor mortis. The vampire must attack and drink the blood of other people, usually biting their jugular vein in the neck and drinking much of their victim's blood. The victim of a vampire usually dies from the lack of blood and in turn becomes a vampire themselves, after death. Vampires are said to have eternal youth and life, the only cost being they must drink blood every night to sustain themselves, stay away from the sunlight, which kills a vampire instantly because they have no soul (*not a common part of the folklore until about the mid 19th century, before then vampires were thought to be able to walk amongst "normal" people during the day*). (The parenthesed info in the above two paragraphs are not my comments, they are part of the author's essay.) The most common way of killing a vampire is to take the body out of its coffin, removing and burning its heart, beheading it and impaling the corpse with a wooden stake made of any wood except pine, which is a symbol is everlasting life due to the fact the pine never loses its leaves. References Konstantinos. Vampires: The Occult Truth. Llewellyn Publications St. Paul, MN 1996 Melton, J. Gordon. The Vampire Book: The Encyclopedia of the Undead. Visible Ink Press Detroit 1994 Spence, Lewis. Encyclopedia of Occultism. University Press New York 1960 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Vampire by Lesa Whyte An undead that rises from the grave during the night to drink the blood of the living in order to stay "alive". Generally the word "undead" refers to a creature that *should be dead but is still active within the realm of the living*. The word "vampire" comes from the Slavic word obyri or obiri, which evolved into the Bulgarian(!) word "vampir". Although sources differ greatly, some say that the Greek word nosophoros (which means "plague- carrier") that evolved into the Old Slavonic word "nosufur-atu" is a synonym for the word "vampire". In our culture, the words "vampire" and "nosferatu" are interchanged often. Birth of a Legend The vampire is truly a global creature, with myths related to the dead which rise to drink the blood of the living coming out of cultures all around the world. From Africa to Japan to Spain and the UK, the vampire has held humans enthralled for centuries. Nowhere, however, do we see more vampire folklore than in the stories of the Slavic people. Perhaps the reason for this is the historically high population of gypsies in that area. The migration of the gypsies has been traced back across the continent to northern India, where the religion had a cast of certain bloodthirsty deities (such as Kali) and creatures (such as a bhutu). It has been theorized that with this as a base of folklore, the gypsies picked up bits and pieces of other legends as they migrated toward the north-west and as a result, altered the folklore of the Slavic nations. According to legend, the victims of a vampire either dies or becomes a vampire. Vampires could also be made in a variety of ways: a *child born under certain omens*, a cat or other animal jumping over a dead body, someone who committed suicide, and *practising witchcraft* are some activities thought to be the cause of vampirism. Even inanimate objects and animals were thought to be able to become vampires: pumpkins, watermelons and other fruit that was left out past a certain amount of time, latches that were left unlatched too long, dogs, horses, sheep and snakes are among the objects with vampiric potential in older superstitions of the Slavic gypsy community. Vampires were thought to be able to *take the form of a bat*, or many *other animals* (---eagle owl?), as well as a mist. They were able to control creatures like *rats* (is this why Pettigrew 'went Dark'?) and wolves, and the elements were at their command. Some kinds of vampires were thought to be endowed with the *ability to fly* (--- Krum?). *Most all vampires of legend slept either in coffins, or returned to the earth to sleep in their grave. Among other superstitions, vampires were supposed to need to return to the earth from their homeland each night, could not cross running water, *could not see their reflection in a mirror*, could not enter a place uninvited, and could not tolerate the symbol of the Christian crucifix*. (Wonder which, if any, of these we'll see come up?) In order to protect yourself from a vampire, the cross or crucifix was thought to be very powerful in the Christian countries. Little is known of how holy symbols were used as vampire protection before the Christian era, however, folk-cures were often employed. *Garlic* was the most popular vampire repellent, as well as *hawthorn and the mountain ash (rowan)*. (No evidence of any wands made of these yet, no? I'd be surprised if JKR brought the crucifix into play.) Another defense was scattering seeds - vampires were supposed to become so involved in counting every single seed that they would either lose interest, or be caught counting even as the sun came up. Surprisingly, silver was not as traditional a protective metal as supposed in popular fiction - iron was the material of choice. Iron shavings were placed beneath a child's cradle, a necklace with an iron nail was worn, and other iron objects were placed strategically around the place needing protection. Once a vampire was discovered, it could be destroyed by cremation, cutting off its head, exposing it to sunlight or by driving a stake through its heart. Other superstitions told that a vampire could be destroyed by touching it with a crucifix, drenching it in holy water and garlic, stealing his left *sock*, filling it with stones and throwing it in a river, or using a "dhampir", or a *vampire's child*. Dhampirs were allegedly the only people who were able to see invisible vampires, and they often took advantage of this by hiring out their services as vampire hunters. (Be interesting if Krum were Snape's son, eh?) In Literature Vampires were popularized by the Irish author Bram Stoker with his story of Count Dracula, a Transylvanian vampire, in 1897. The story was probably based on Vlad Tepes, a medieval character of exceptional bloodthirst. He supposedly impaled his enemies (hence his nickname Vlad The Impaler) and cut off their heads. He ruled Walachia as Vlad III in the 15th century, which is now part of Romania. He signed his letters with Vlad Dracula, which can be translated as Vlad, son of the *dragon* or son of the devil. His father was called "Dracul" because he had a *dragon* depicted on his coat of arms. Before Stoker, vampire literature was rare, but existent. Perhaps the most popular pre-"Dracula" stories were "Carmilla", by J. Sheridan Le Fanu; "Varney The Vampire", by James Malcolm Rymer; and "The Vampyre; A Tale", by John Polidori. *Modern Vampires * (--all of this paragraph) Vampires today, as they are often portrayed in modern day literature, are much different than the vampires of old. They do not necessarily have the same limitations the vampires from legends had. Garlic and crosses offer no protection against them, they are supposed to be able to walk during the day, and sometimes are not considered to be undead, but *another species of humans*. They usually still have extraordinary powers: their strength and *speed* surpasses that of humans, and their senses are heightened to a preternatural level. The need for blood, however, has not diminished, in spite of how we have seen in the last twenty years a trend toward a conscientious vampire who is *tormented by his/her own humanity*. _____________________________________________________________________ Vampire Lore The vampire is one of the most dreaded and feared creatures of the supernatural world. He can *live forever*, *shape shift*, travel under cover of night and seduce victims, drain them of blood and grow stronger. A vampire can be male or female and can be beautifully human looking or horrific and monstrous. Dating prior to the sixteen hundreds, some of the earliest New World accounts of vampires were documented. The beliefs of vampires are different for each region of the world. The origin and details of vampires differ based on geography, but are similar in one fact: a vampire is an undead creature that drains the life out of the living. In West Africa and other areas of Africa, blood is powerful and if a person sheds blood, it has to be cleansed or covered so an evil spirit can not taste of the blood and seek out the person to whom it belongs. Blood could enable the spirit to revitalize the body of the dead and destroy the body and soul of the living. Blood is also of great importance in Australia among the Aborigine. It is considered the best remedy for the sick, giving an ill person more life. (This bit might have some bearing on "Flesh, Blood, and Bone", ch 32.) The "creation" of a vampire, also differs with culture and beliefs. A human might become a vampire if they: *practiced Black Magic*, were of absolute evil, committed suicide, were a victim of a horrendous and violent death, were buried without proper rites, died excommunicated from their religion, were bitten by a vampire and lived or were bitten by a vampire and died. One thing that remains constant within vampire lore is that a holy or consecrated object or strong faith in a Supreme and good being, usually keeps the vampire away or at rest. In Greece the practice of placing a consecrated object on the lips of the deceased is still in practice. Other cultures sew the mouth shut and sprinkle the lips with blessed water. The mouth is thought to be the way the soul leaves the body, and also the way it, or another evil spirit, can reenter. (Intriguing connection of the last line with the dementors.) Vampires are great lead characters for stories, books and movies. Modern vampires have become more sensual and seductive and very alluring. Blood is known to be very powerful: it is the source of life and health and sexual passion. The sensations excited by the flow of blood are real and oftentimes intense. The image of a vampire embracing its victim, cradling the head and neck in strong hands while it gorges on the victim's blood can be an attractive scene in a movie or book. But a vampire that drinks blood is not the only vampire found in lore and literature. There are also psychic or spiritual vampires who draw the life energy of their victims and sometimes, the very soul. (Don't know how much bearing most of this paragraph has on canon, but I really liked it. ;o) Also, I have a short bit of info on psychic vampires--which doesn't seem to relate to Snape much--but I can post it if there's any interest.) The vampire with razor sharp fangs who gorges on blood and then sleeps all day closely resembles the habits and anatomy of a species of bat native in Central and South America: the vampire bat. It is evident that the vampire existed well before the vampire bat was discovered. The vampire in literature developed features resembling these bats and was even able to transform into a bat. The modern vampire is *losing its fangs and the need to drink blood*, transforming its image to mirror the times and culture. The vampire bat has remained the same with minor anatomical changes. There are those who view the vampire as pure myth, a figure to explain events without obvious explanations or to scare children and adults into being good and pious individuals. There are those who believe that the vampire exists in similar form to the lore and myths and that just because we have yet to actually see one, does not prove that they don't exist. Vampire lore and myth will continue, as will the books and movies. Our fascination with this creature will never end and as long as there are authors to create further reasons to be seduced by the vampire, we will be under its spell. Do vampires really exist? It is an age old question alongside the existence of werewolves, Big Foot and alien life forms. Do we really want to know? The mystery of the vampire is one of the biggest attractions to most things supernatural. Written by Bobbi Jo Innamorato Williams Title: Vampire lore Description:Vampire lore has graced pages in books and screens in movie theaters for years. Learn the history of the vampire. Copyright 2001 by PageWise, Inc. From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 00:29:52 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 17:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: chapter summary 13 Message-ID: <20010606002952.29116.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20250 1. She figured cats will be cats! Scabbers was there,and rat's snacking time! Besides, Crookshanks always knew where to search him out! Even if she tried to stop him, he had a strong will of his own to get the rat! 2.He saw Sirius as a dog with Crookshanks. Thinking it was a Grim, he didn't want to scare Ron. 3.Reading them out loud with my boys made it more exciting than reading it to myself. You can really enjoy the banter between Lee Jordan and Professor McGonagall with their comments on the plays! 4.For that trick alone they should have been expelled! They put another schoolmate at high risk of being injured or killed. That part really made me upset that they got off with only points taken away! 5.A very bright blinding light! 6.He takes pride in himself, so why not wear it! Atleast he can't in a bath or shower, unless he puts a spell on it to stick on him then too. 7.He has shown braver when he tried to fight Malfoy's Gang! His selfesteem is so low, I can understand why he makes mistakes. Plus Snape doesn't help either. 8. Well, Harry saw him as a dog with Crookshanks on Hogwarts' grounds. So, he knew his way in and out when he was a student and that knowledge helped him to get in. Wanda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Jun 6 01:14:37 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 01:14:37 -0000 Subject: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <9fjl0u+sckv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fk05t+jiae@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20251 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > > > > They do research. The Wolfsbane Potion is a relatively new potion > > for lycanthropy. IIRC, in SS/PS, Harry saw a book in Flourish & > > Botts called New Hexes (or something along those lines) that > > included the Jelly-Legs curse. Dumbledore discrovered the 12 uses > > for Dragon's Blood. Then there's the activities of that mysterious > > Department of Mysteries. > > > > It wouldn't surprize me if there have been wizards and witches who > > have studied why Muggles are Muggles and why there are Squibs. > > True, but I have to wonder if these would count as scientific > research as we understand it. After all, genetic research can only > go so far on Punnett squares and monastic gardens. > > When I read of Dumbledore discovering the 12 uses for Dragon's Blood, > I envision the Edisonian type of directed trial and error that gave > us the light bulb. Similarly, the discovery of the Wolfsbane potion > seems to be about on the same level as preparing foxglove or willow > bark or finding new drugs in our times by using the reports of the > indigenous peoples of the Amazon or South Pacific. > > It seems to me that a search for the magic gene would require > greater science than the wizarding community uses.... > True, it might not be 'research' in the sense of contemporary science. But you have given fine examples of phyto-pharmacologic agents that have been further 'refined' and synthetically mass-produced . Afterall, medications such as antibiotics, calcium-channel blockers, etc. are contemporary 'potions'. During their development, these medications underwent periods of 'trial and error', not to mention multi-phasic clinical trials. Sometimes medications fail to bring about the intended results and are instead marketed for it a resultant side effect, for example Viagra. I'm beginning to rethink the magic gene. Neuroscientists have mapped out most of the brain and most of the brain functions are known. But neurotransmiters are still being categorized and sub-categorized. For example, there are aleast 5 known serotonin receptors; when I was in school, there were 2 known receptors (and I haven't been out of school that long!). Next year they'll probably classify a couple of more serotonin receptors. Same goes for hormones, especially hormones produced by the gravid uterus. What if Muggles and Wizards differ by one neurotransmitter and/or one hormone? Then depending on what is or isn't lacking a wizard can become a Muggle, a Squib/Muggle a wizard, simply by potentiating or inhibiting the influence of this neurotransmitter or hormone. Milz From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Jun 6 01:21:54 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 01:21:54 -0000 Subject: Why don't I remember Florence? In-Reply-To: <9fjsbe+1h9m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fk0ji+9lsg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20252 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose" wrote: > I am going through all of the posts and I hear all of this stuff > about Snape being a vampire and kissing Florence... I really don't > remember this at all! Who is Florence? Am I missing something?!?!? A student named Florence is mentioned in the GoF pensieve chapter. Dumbledore and Harry are looking at the pensieve. They see Bertha Jorkins as a 16 year old Hogwarts student rotating around and around. The rotating girl tells the Penseive-Dumbledore that she saw "him" kissing Florence behind the greenhouses. The speculation is Snape was the one kissing Florence and subsequently cursed Bertha Jorkins. Another speculation is that Sirius was kissing Florence. At any rate, SOMEONE was kissing Florence. We don't know if it is significant or not in the remaining Potter books. :-)Milz From purplefanta at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 01:30:54 2001 From: purplefanta at yahoo.com (purplefanta at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 01:30:54 -0000 Subject: Good characters going bad...specifically Wormtail In-Reply-To: <9fj4hl+2die@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fk14e+fo7t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20253 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: Finally, if > anyone is going to be offered the chance of some kind of redemption, > I believe it is him. It is possible that JKR drops a hint about this > when Dumbledore is telling Harry that it wasn't a bad thing he does > when he saves Wormtail's life, and that he may be glad of this one > day. I am hoping that there comes a time when Wormtail finds the > courage to do something good, and turn away from Voldemort. > > Catherine My take on this is that Wormtail will sacrafice his own life to save Harry's in a later book, probably book 7. The only way to truly "make up" for his part in the murder of Lily and James is to die saving their son. In this way, we again see good triumph over evil. I know that this is a bit cliche, but the only other two options for Wormtail is to 1) stay evil (which I think by Dumbledore's comments we know isn't 100% true, or 2) come back to the good side. I don't think this will happen because Voldemort has too much of a hold on Wormtail. Is only out is death, which (I hope) will happen while saving Harry. Melissa From jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net Wed Jun 6 02:06:15 2001 From: jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net (Jennye & Michael Woolf) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:06:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <9fjoth+c1hp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0ee2d$4562dd60$d8094a42@Dexter> No: HPFGUIDX 20254 One last thing - we could keep an eye out for the blood lollipops in his candy dish! *g* Jennye [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net Wed Jun 6 02:10:31 2001 From: jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net (Jennye & Michael Woolf) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:10:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Map again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c0ee2d$ddf47b60$d8094a42@Dexter> No: HPFGUIDX 20255 Allyse wrote: >An oft mentioned theory is that only a fellow Marauder can see MWPP on the >map, which is why Lupin was able to see Wormtail; but the counter argument >is that Snape was able to see Moony when he found the map on Lupin's desk. > >I just wondered if anyone had advanced the theory to include the person who >first *activated* the map. >Then, when Snape came into the office with the potion and discovered the >map, Lupin would be visible, since it was Lupin himself who activitated. >>You are so smart! That makes perfect sense. (Send it to Jo so she'll have a ready answer when some 9-year-old asks her how come no one ever noticed Peter before.) Another question about the map that recently occured to me - When Snape gets the Marauders Map, H & H have gone back in time, so would there be two sets of H & H on the Marauder's Map? Why or why not (and why wouldn't Lupin have noticed the 2nd set of H & H on the map since they were in virtually the same place?) Jennye [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dasienko at email.com Wed Jun 6 02:18:31 2001 From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 02:18:31 -0000 Subject: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <9fjl0u+sckv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fk3tn+ua22@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20256 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > > True, but I have to wonder if these would count as scientific > research as we understand it. After all, genetic research can only > go so far on Punnett squares and monastic gardens. > > When I read of Dumbledore discovering the 12 uses for Dragon's Blood, > I envision the Edisonian type of directed trial and error that gave > us the light bulb. Similarly, the discovery of the Wolfsbane potion > seems to be about on the same level as preparing foxglove or willow > bark or finding new drugs in our times by using the reports of the > indigenous peoples of the Amazon or South Pacific. > > It seems to me that a search for the magic gene would require > greater science than the wizarding community uses.... > There are those witches and wizards that have entered the muggle world. There are a few instances of Hogwarts students saying that one of their parents are muggle, Tom Riddle is one of them. It is a possibility that the wizards/witches that are interested in doing muggle type of scientific research do enter the muggle culture and interact with muggles and maybe do wizard research on the side. In the children that are wizard born to muggle parents, wizardry may be a recessive gene in both parents. The opposite would be true for squibs. What is the scientifc method if not directed trial and error of a hypothesis? What is magic to one generation is science to the next. From joym999 at aol.com Wed Jun 6 02:20:12 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 02:20:12 -0000 Subject: Technology, was Re: What are muggles, anyway? In-Reply-To: <9fj3qa+6frk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fk40s+dmqr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20257 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > > Could be. Maybe Dumbledore is privy to Magical/Muggle genetic > > studies that imply Muggles are really Squibs. > > Somehow, a culture that doesn't use "eckeltricity" doesn't strike > me as prime ground for having done genetic research. On the other > hand, genealogical research seems to be the kind of thing that > would fit in well -- heir of Slytherin and all that stuff.... > Wizards don't use electricity for a very good reason -- they don't need it, in fact they don't need our technology at all (except maybe for sherbet lemons). Modern muggle technology, according to wizards, is a (poor) substitute for magic. And modern muggle technology is largely based on the availability of cheap, efficient energy sources, especially electricity. But wizards can create their own energy. This, IMO, is one of the most significant differences between muggles and wizards. Why mine coal, build power plants and power lines and thousands of devices, create vast amounts of pollution, and endanger the future of the planet thru global warming, if you can light hundreds of candles with a flick of the wrist? Wizards have their own sort of technologies. They are constantly improving and refining magical objects. The history of the broomstick, as explained in QTTA, makes this clear. And several people have noticed the similarities between the kind of logic that goes into creating a magical item such as the Marauder's Map and the kind of logic that goes into writing a computer program. They are simply different types of technologies, and one is not necessarily superior to the other. I have studied the history and development of technology and many of the devices we use have as much to do with cultural preferences and historical accidents as anything else. Different technologies develop for different reasons at different times. Many cultures independently invented the wheel, for example, and many of them rejected it because their geographic conditions made it unsuitable for use in a transportation device. I think wizards do plenty of research. That's why they need publications like the "Journal of Transfiguration" (I think that's what it's called.) They just research different stuff than muggles do because they have different needs, just like the Mayans stopped researching the wheel because they lived in a mountainous region at the same time Europeans were developing wheeled vehicles. So, if wizards need to know about genetics, they are likely to be researching it. They might not need it though, since genetic research is primarily done within the field of medicine, and wizard medical science is clearly a lot different that ours. --Joywitch From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Jun 6 02:47:56 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 19:47:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter Bug In-Reply-To: <00cb01c0ed5e$1b46afe0$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010605194602.034c0cf0@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20258 At 08:23 PM 6/4/01 -0500, Priscilla Spencer wrote: >Actually, when Hermione spills the beans to Harry and Ron (p. 727 US ed, I >can't find my UK copy), she specified that Rita is an unregistered >Animagus. However, you do bring up an interesting point. Why would >Hermione need to go to the library? Thoughts? She needed to ascertain that Rita (I won't call her a cow because it's an insult to cows) *wasn't* registered (and therefore was breaking the law) so that Hermione had something to blackmail her with. -- Dave From bak42 at netzero.net Wed Jun 6 03:07:17 2001 From: bak42 at netzero.net (bak42) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 20:07:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter Bug References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010605194602.034c0cf0@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <002501c0ee35$d243a5e0$a8710404@bak42> No: HPFGUIDX 20259 I see one flaw in Hermione's plan. What's to stop Rita from going to the Ministry of Magic and getting registered as an Animagus. If Rita does that then Hermione has no dirt on Rita and Rita can continue her career. P.S. I also think that calling Rita a cow is an insult to cows. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Brandon 73% obsessed with Harry Potter Earth: Mostly Harmless Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy "You know, said Ron, whose hair was on end because of all the times he had run his fingers through it in frustration, "I think it's time for the old Divination standby." "What--make it up?" Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Hardenbrook To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Rita Skeeter Bug At 08:23 PM 6/4/01 -0500, Priscilla Spencer wrote: >Actually, when Hermione spills the beans to Harry and Ron (p. 727 US ed, I >can't find my UK copy), she specified that Rita is an unregistered >Animagus. However, you do bring up an interesting point. Why would >Hermione need to go to the library? Thoughts? She needed to ascertain that Rita (I won't call her a cow because it's an insult to cows) *wasn't* registered (and therefore was breaking the law) so that Hermione had something to blackmail her with. -- Dave [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JamiDeise at aol.com Wed Jun 6 03:14:09 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 23:14:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 13 Summary Message-ID: <7d.16179121.284efa01@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20260 In a message dated 6/5/2001 6:45:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ra_1013 at yahoo.com writes: << Remember that seeing the Dementors last time made Harry fall off his broom, plummet 50 feet, and nearly die. >> which brings up a question I have: Cho saw the faux dementors before Harry. She screamed and pointed down. Was that really a spontaneous reaction of fear? Or did she deliberately point down, hoping Harry would fall again and give her a clear shot at the Snitch? Jami From Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 04:05:45 2001 From: Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com (Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 04:05:45 -0000 Subject: Technology In-Reply-To: <9fk40s+dmqr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fka6p+3rs8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20261 There's a quote in the science fiction realms -- I don't remember the exact wording and speaker -- but I want to say it was Isaac Asimov. "Any sufficiiently adavanced form of technology is indistinguishable from magic." Can anyone put a name to this? I love this line. It's true! It's true! Belle, who probably would remember more had she not drank so much Swill and Turbo Lag during the conventions. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > > > Could be. Maybe Dumbledore is privy to Magical/Muggle genetic > > > studies that imply Muggles are really Squibs. > > > > Somehow, a culture that doesn't use "eckeltricity" doesn't strike > > me as prime ground for having done genetic research. On the other > > hand, genealogical research seems to be the kind of thing that > > would fit in well -- heir of Slytherin and all that stuff.... > > > > Wizards don't use electricity for a very good reason -- they don't > need it, in fact they don't need our technology at all (except maybe > for sherbet lemons). Modern muggle technology, according to wizards, > is a (poor) substitute for magic. And modern muggle technology is > largely based on the availability of cheap, efficient energy sources, > especially electricity. > > But wizards can create their own energy. This, IMO, is one of the > most significant differences between muggles and wizards. Why mine > coal, build power plants and power lines and thousands of devices, > create vast amounts of pollution, and endanger the future of the > planet thru global warming, if you can light hundreds of candles with > a flick of the wrist? > > Wizards have their own sort of technologies. They are constantly > improving and refining magical objects. The history of the > broomstick, as explained in QTTA, makes this clear. And several > people have noticed the similarities between the kind of logic that > goes into creating a magical item such as the Marauder's Map and the > kind of logic that goes into writing a computer program. They are > simply different types of technologies, and one is not necessarily > superior to the other. > > I have studied the history and development of technology and many of > the devices we use have as much to do with cultural preferences and > historical accidents as anything else. Different technologies > develop for different reasons at different times. Many cultures > independently invented the wheel, for example, and many of them > rejected it because their geographic conditions made it unsuitable > for use in a transportation device. > > I think wizards do plenty of research. That's why they need > publications like the "Journal of Transfiguration" (I think that's > what it's called.) They just research different stuff than muggles > do because they have different needs, just like the Mayans stopped > researching the wheel because they lived in a mountainous region at > the same time Europeans were developing wheeled vehicles. > > So, if wizards need to know about genetics, they are likely to be > researching it. They might not need it though, since genetic > research is primarily done within the field of medicine, and wizard > medical science is clearly a lot different that ours. > > --Joywitch From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 04:35:02 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 04:35:02 -0000 Subject: Vampire Info--rather long In-Reply-To: <9fjt88+8580@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fkbtm+mnrg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20262 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: >From 1730-35 Hungary, the Balkans, Poland, Bulgaria (!) and > Bohemia (now the Czech Republic) had a Vampire Epidemic> The word "vampire" comes from the Slavic word obyri or obiri, which > evolved into the Bulgarian(!) word "vampir". Where is Durmstrang? Could it be somewhere around Romania, Poland, Bulgaria? Seems to be very close to areas that are filled with vampire folklore. Krum's father spoke in Bulgarian. > Vampires were thought to be able to *take the form of a bat*, or many > *other animals* (---eagle owl?), as well as a mist. They were able to > control creatures like *rats* (is this why Pettigrew 'went Dark'?) > and wolves, and the elements were at their command. In some lore vampires (Snape) and werewolves (Lupin) do not get along. There is also folklore of vampires controlling dogs. Some kinds of > vampires were thought to be endowed with the *ability to fly* (--- > Krum?). Let's talk about Krum. There has to be more to Krum than we know. I have stated that before, as have others. In GoF it says; Harry had never seen anyone fly like that; Krum hardly looked as though he was using a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air that he looked unsupported and weightless. Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal people can't swim in water like that. Speaking of the cold, how about those dungeons? The kids try to get close to the cauldrons for warmth. Doesn't seem to bother Professor Snape. By the way, in PoS, McGonagall says this about Harry; 'The boys a natural. I've never seen anything like it.' Krum and Harry are both naturals. Harry had never seen anyone fly like Krum and McGonagall had never seen anyone fly like Harry. They seem to share something in common. <<<<<<(No evidence of any wands made of these yet, no?>>>>>>>> Krum has a wand made out of hornbeam and dragon heartstring. Don't know about Snape. or using a "dhampir", or a *vampire's child*. > Dhampirs were allegedly the only people who were able to see > invisible vampires, and they often took advantage of this by hiring > out their services as vampire hunters. (Be interesting if Krum were > Snape's son, eh?) It seems a dhampir has this strong desire to kill his vampire father and yes they are vampire hunters. I know this is *far out* but if Snape is a vampire or even a dhampir, could he not have some special ability to hunt down other vampires? In his search for immortality, I would imagine Voldemort spent some time around vampires. We are told about vampires in a forest and how Voldemort spent time in a forest. The books don't say it is the same forest but it could be. Could not Snape be able to track Voldemort in some way? When Krum was first described, I thought of Snape. They do share many of the same physical characteristics. However, now that we know Snape's age, I don't know how he could be Krum's father. Also we are told that Krum has inherited his father's hooked nose. > > In Literature > Vampires were popularized by the Irish author Bram Stoker with his > story of Count Dracula, a Transylvanian vampire, in 1897. The story > was probably based on Vlad Tepes, a medieval character of exceptional > bloodthirst. He supposedly impaled his enemies (hence his nickname > Vlad The Impaler) and cut off their heads. He ruled Walachia as Vlad > III in the 15th century, which is now part of Romania. He signed his > letters with Vlad Dracula, which can be translated as Vlad, son of > the *dragon* or son of the devil. His father was called "Dracul" > because he had a *dragon* depicted on his coat of arms. When doing research on Vlad, there was mention of the colors they wore at that time. Red was one of the colors. I forget what the meaning was but I believe it had to do with vampires. The kids from Durmstrang wore red. Green was also another color worn and I believe it had to do with dragons. On a side note, I think there is more to dragons than has been discussed. > Modern vampires have become more sensual and seductive and very > alluring. Blood is known to be very powerful: it is the source of > life and health and sexual passion. The sensations excited by the > flow of blood are real and oftentimes intense. Someone else suggested today that maybe Snape was biting the neck of Florence and not kissing her ;) That's it! He just couldn't control his passion!!! > There are also psychic or > spiritual vampires who draw the life energy of their victims and > sometimes, the very soul. (Don't know how much bearing most of this > paragraph has on canon, but I really liked it. ;o) I'm not sure what spiritual vampires are. Don't know if I want to know ;) Thanks for a great read! I enjoyed it. I still believe Snape is a vampire and I wouldn't be surprised if there are others we have already read about that are also. Still in the minority, Koinonia From Schlobin at aol.com Wed Jun 6 05:01:24 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 01:01:24 EDT Subject: FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20263 One of my friends, Rich, who is a professor at the University of Michigan School of Social Work gave me permission to post these comments to this list "I love the Harry Potter books too. But anyway, something that really bugs me about the books is her depiction of obesity and her equating it with sloth, greed, and narrow-mindedness (her depiction of Harry's cousin). I think that continues to promote intolerance and mistreatment based on weight. I feel these wildly popular books will not do much for kids who are bullied and ostracized based on weight. On the who's who in Harry Potter website, notice the description of Dudley: "Dudley Dursley: Harry's chubby, spoiled and bratty cousin, also a Muggle." I bet nine of out ten kids would start with a description of Dudley's weight as his defining characteristic." I brought up Hagrid and Molly and noted that Mrs. Malfoy is thin, but still think that this is an issue worth discussing... Susan From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 6 05:13:56 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 01:13:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAT References: Message-ID: <3B1DBC14.CA35D916@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 20264 Hello All!!!! Schlobin at aol.com wrote: > One of my friends, Rich, who is a professor at the University of Michigan > School of Social Work gave me permission to post these comments to this list > > "I love the Harry Potter books too. > But anyway, something that really bugs me about the books is her depiction > of obesity and her equating it with sloth, greed, and narrow-mindedness > (her depiction of Harry's cousin). I don't think that's it, exactly. I don't think she means to promote sloth as evil, just that the meaner characters, such as Dudley, are portrayed as being as unsavory as possible. > I think that continues to promote > intolerance and mistreatment based on weight. I feel these wildly popular > books will not do much for kids who are bullied and ostracized based on > weight. I'm a fairly big guy, and I never felt any anger at the way the fat people were portrayed in the books. I don't think she's portraying anything bad for bigger children, actually. And if so, she's not doing it intentionally. IMHO of course. > > On the who's who in Harry Potter website, notice the description of Dudley: > "Dudley Dursley: Harry's chubby, spoiled and bratty cousin, also a Muggle." > I bet nine of out ten kids would start with a description of Dudley's > weight as his defining characteristic." > Well, he is chubby, spoiled and bratty. I don't think she's being unfair to anyone, except to portray that there are bigger children in Britan (and all over) and that meaner people are unsavory in as well as out. > > I brought up Hagrid and Molly and noted that Mrs. Malfoy is thin, but still > think > that this is an issue worth discussing... > Hagrid and Molly are good points. As is Madame Maxime and Madame Hooch, who both stuck me as being rather plump. It doesn't matter the size of you, but what's inside that counts. (oh, dear! My mother just came out of my mouth. eeww) Hugs Jamieson -- "I don't need parents. All I need is a recording that says, 'Go play outside!" - Calvin and Hobbes In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams From saitaina at wizzards.net Wed Jun 6 05:51:21 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 22:51:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAT References: <3B1DBC14.CA35D916@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <003301c0ee4c$b75fadc0$7d4e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20265 I myself was a bit annoyed at her portrayal of Dudly (always commenting that he was getting fatter and fatter) while not portraying other, nice, normal wizards or muggles that were plump but then I thought about it and realized Dudly's weight is not in connection with portraying him as a brat, but as demonstrating the difference between how the Dursley's treat Harry and how they treat they're own son. Some kids would not have picked up on it if she did not use it to this extreme. Having Dudly grotesquely obese and having Harry a skinny rail is a great difference between the treatment of the two of them that a seven year old could easily pick up on. Beyond that it gives a bit of a underline for Dudly's bullying (not that I'm excusing it) and remember, everything we see is colored in some way by Harry's perspective. Would Dudly seem different if the story was told by Vernon or Petunia, or even Hermione? Dudly would of course be obese, but would he really have five wobbling chins? Would he still look like a pig in a wig? It's all a mater of stepping out of the fat = evil debate and looking at it from different views. On a completely but not entirely unrelated note, I do hope that Dudly's diet works because I think that Harry needs a smuggle nemesis and besides, Dudly's on the verge of being a goner if he keeps up his appetite. Saitaina ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve To: Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] FAT > Hello All!!!! > > Schlobin at aol.com wrote: > > > One of my friends, Rich, who is a professor at the University of Michigan > > School of Social Work gave me permission to post these comments to this list > > > > "I love the Harry Potter books too. > > But anyway, something that really bugs me about the books is her depiction > > of obesity and her equating it with sloth, greed, and narrow-mindedness > > (her depiction of Harry's cousin). > > I don't think that's it, exactly. I don't think she means to promote sloth as evil, just that the meaner characters, such as Dudley, are portrayed as being as unsavory as possible. > > > I think that continues to promote > > intolerance and mistreatment based on weight. I feel these wildly popular > > books will not do much for kids who are bullied and ostracized based on > > weight. > > I'm a fairly big guy, and I never felt any anger at the way the fat people were portrayed in the books. I don't think she's portraying anything bad for bigger children, actually. And if so, she's not doing it intentionally. IMHO of course. > > > > > On the who's who in Harry Potter website, notice the description of Dudley: > > "Dudley Dursley: Harry's chubby, spoiled and bratty cousin, also a Muggle." > > I bet nine of out ten kids would start with a description of Dudley's > > weight as his defining characteristic." > > > > Well, he is chubby, spoiled and bratty. I don't think she's being unfair to anyone, except to portray that there are bigger children in Britan (and all over) and that meaner people are unsavory in as well as out. > > > > > I brought up Hagrid and Molly and noted that Mrs. Malfoy is thin, but still > > think > > that this is an issue worth discussing... > > > > Hagrid and Molly are good points. As is Madame Maxime and Madame Hooch, who both stuck me as being rather plump. It doesn't matter the size of you, but what's inside that counts. (oh, dear! My mother just came out of my mouth. eeww) > > Hugs > Jamieson > > -- > "I don't need parents. > All I need is a recording that says, 'Go play outside!" > - Calvin and Hobbes > > In the beginning the Universe was created. > This has made a lot of people very angry and been > widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > www. > > > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 6 07:25:32 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 07:25:32 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter Bug In-Reply-To: <002501c0ee35$d243a5e0$a8710404@bak42> Message-ID: <9fkltc+qrra@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20266 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "bak42" wrote: > I see one flaw in Hermione's plan. What's to stop Rita from going to the Ministry of Magic and getting registered as an Animagus. If Rita does that then Hermione has no dirt on Rita and Rita can continue her career. > > P.S. I also think that calling Rita a cow is an insult to cows. Because Rita has been unregistered as an animagus for some time, so has already broken the law. It is also very useful to her to not be registered, because she can eavesdrop on so many conversations. She probably weigh up the pros and cons and think it better to stop writing such malicious articles for a year rather than get into trouble for not being registered and lose the advantage she would still have when she can start writing again. I also thought that it wasn't just a case of being registered - I thought that those who were going to try it needed supervision? Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 6 07:33:36 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 07:33:36 -0000 Subject: Vampire Info--rather long In-Reply-To: <9fkbtm+mnrg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fkmcg+lsni@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20267 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: > Where is Durmstrang? Could it be somewhere around Romania, Poland, > Bulgaria? Seems to be very close to areas that are filled with > vampire folklore. > > Krum's father spoke in Bulgarian. I've wondered about this too, and am not sure. I initially assumed that it was somewhere in Eastern Europe, but when they have started talking about mountains and glaciers, I thought that perhaps it could be somewhere in Scandinavia. > > Let's talk about Krum. There has to be more to Krum than we know. I > have stated that before, as have others. In GoF it says; Harry had > never seen anyone fly like that; Krum hardly looked as though he was > using a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air that > he looked unsupported and weightless. > > Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to > mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal people > can't swim in water like that. I'm not sure about this. It wasn't much later (February) when all the champions had to enter the lake. I always assumed that the reason Krum was diving into the lake was to a) improve his swimming and get used to the cold (and we don't know that he isn't taking some kind of potion to keep him warmer) b) practise his transfiguration in preparation for the second task and c) get his bearings in the lake. > By the way, in PoS, McGonagall says this about Harry; 'The boys a > natural. I've never seen anything like it.' > > Krum and Harry are both naturals. Harry had never seen anyone fly > like Krum and McGonagall had never seen anyone fly like Harry. They > seem to share something in common. I've cut all the interesting stuff about vampires - I'm still not sure what to think as it seems a little far-fetched to me. One thing strikes me however - isn't it strange that 3 out of 4 champions are seekers? Catherine From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Wed Jun 6 08:21:11 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 6 Jun 2001 08:21:11 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups Message-ID: <991815671.1323.46550.cb@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20268 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups group. File : /Song Parodies/Pranksters.txt Uploaded by : heymynameisabird at hotmail.com Description : Prankster's Paradise - Fred and George Rap! You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Song%20Parodies/Pranksters.txt To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, heymynameisabird at hotmail.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 10:06:41 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 03:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <000001c0ee2d$4562dd60$d8094a42@Dexter> Message-ID: <20010606100641.95366.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20269 I don't buy the theory but for the sake of argument: Perhaps that's the task assigned by Dumbledore at the end of GoF - that Snape stop taking some potion or other than controls his vampirism like the Wolfsbane potion control's Lupin's condition. Perhaps a resumption of his condition is necessary for the battle ahead. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Wed Jun 6 10:09:06 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:09:06 -0000 Subject: Slytherins, evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fkvg2+mkin@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20270 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" wrote: > And a post I made to Syrina's Snape list: > > I often wonder why Dumbledore keeps the Slytherins around. Are there any > good ones? I'd imagine if a Slytherin did, by some miracle, turn out good, > he/she'd > be very powerful. And is Salazar Slytherin evil? I know he created the > Chamber of Secrets because of the rivalry with Gryffindore, but there must > have > been some reason the other three founders agreed to work with him to build > Hogwarts. > > Vicky, who has too much time on her hands Nobody is born evil in the Potterverse, IMO. I think this is the whole point about the giants and Lupin, and I'm fairly sure we'll see it with Snape too. Harry could see Riddle's POV over being expelled to an orphanage. GRHS worked together because they believed in magical education. Later, they discovered they didn't agree abput everything and fell out. But Gryffindor could still recognise the good in Slytherin, and put the relevant bits into the Hat. I doubt if Dumbledore would consider he had the right to change the set-up with the Sorting Hat - I think he would say he's just a temporary steward, handing on what he's received. David, who can't get out of his mind that Severus Snape = Sever his nape From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Wed Jun 6 10:22:08 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:22:08 -0000 Subject: Wizard names - Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fl08g+2bpg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20271 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" wrote: > I think that the names we are given in canon *are* their names if Harry is a > given name and not a nickname as well... how fond are the British of > nicknames? It seems to depend from culture to culture... > > But I'd like to think that their names are William, Charles, Percival, > Frederick, George, Ronald, and Virginia. Delightfully medieval. ;- ) > > --Ebony AKA AngieJ > In current British usage, (which would have applied in the seventies) Bill could be short for William, or a name in its own right. The same applies to Fred and I think Ginny. We know Ron is Ronald. However, Percival is a more unusual name, and Percy is definiteyly an unrelated name in its own right (Bill and Fred came about as contractions of William and Frederick). Percy is the family name of the Dukes of Northumberland, and there was a fashion (19th cent? I'm not sure) for giving children the names of noble families, as a result of which they passed into common usage. Howard is another (Dukes of Norwich) and I would guess Spencer (much less common) is another. We don't know for sure, but on balance I think Percy is Percy - they call him Perce for short (when not calling him Weatherby etc.) David From lumen_dei at freeler.nl Tue Jun 5 12:12:18 2001 From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 14:12:18 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 13 Summary..sabatoge at quidditch References: <9fhg9m+3qgv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000101c0ee75$afe3cc60$a38a74d5@PoorClares> No: HPFGUIDX 20272 > I agree with Jamieson - I'd have expelled him. Perhaps not, but such > tactics could at least have got Slytherin disqualified from the > Quidditch Tournament that year. >Let's be fair. All they did was to dress up in a scary costume. >How wrong is that, really? >Robert Carnegie Meretricious! Sigh, I had given good "Meretricious!" the accolade of group "genie in the lamp", and I won't change it,...but evil is not alone in the outer wrappings. The whole school had seen a student barely escape death when he fell from his broom. If you know a person has a very weak heart and is recovering from surgery, you don't jump out from a bush and scream, "Boo!" and then shake the corpse to say, "Just a joke!"...unless he is leaving you a cool million in his will. Maria Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop -- "Have Wand, Will Wave" www.geocities.com/lumen_dei [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 11:24:49 2001 From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth C) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:24:49 +1000 Subject: how many Hermiones? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20273 >Robert said: If the Patils are identical twins (I forget) They are identical - Hermione says something like "Parvati Patil's twin's in Ravenclaw, and they're identical, so you'd think they'd be in the same house" in CoS, I think, when Ginny is being sorted. But a nitpick on the identical thing - in GoF, when Parvati said she'd ask Padma to go to the ball with Ron, Harry thinks something like "he hoped Padma Patil's nose was dead centre," which implies that Padma looks different to Parvati. Could just be a plot device though, to pull together the whole scene. Liz _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From nethilia at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 11:38:27 2001 From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 04:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 947 In-Reply-To: <991786340.2804.80859.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010606113827.59463.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20274 Devika: >>BTW, I've been trying to figure out the significance of the stag in mythology, but I haven't had much luck. Could someone point me in the right direction or tell me what they came up with? I read someone's post about the stag being an enemy of the serpent, but I would like to be able to find >>something more detailed. I remember a myth: the White Stag of Greek Mythology. The fourth of Hercules's (or Heracles, if I must use the Greek name) twelve tasks was to catch the White stag. It was a sacred beast to the Godess Artemis (goddess of the moon, hunting, childbirth, virginity, and unmarried young women). Herculese hunted it down and was about to catch it when Artemis appeared and threatened to kill him for hunting in her forests. When he explained, however, she allowed him to take the stag as long as he took it unharmed. He did as such and took the stag to the King (who had one of those long annoying names I can't remember). Chalk up another for Hercie. He did also kill the Nemean lion. Hmm.... ===== --Nethilia de Lobo-- **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.** http://www.geocities.com/spenecial Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From nethilia at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 11:42:43 2001 From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 04:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 947 In-Reply-To: <991786340.2804.80859.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010606114243.47688.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20275 > > Bugg wrote: > > >I first thought the Weasleys were named in > alphabetical order. > >Bill, Charley, Fred, George, Percy, Ron, Virginia > [Ginny] > >Than I realized Percy was in the wrong spot. > >Could it be Edward Percival Weasley? > > > > I think that the names we are given in canon *are* > their names if Harry is a > given name and not a nickname as well... how fond > are the British of > nicknames? It seems to depend from culture to > culture... > > But I'd like to think that their names are William, > Charles, Percival, > Frederick, George, Ronald, and Virginia. > Delightfully medieval. ;-) > > --Ebony AKA AngieJ Ron's first name is Ronald. Can't think of where I saw his full name though. ===== --Nethilia de Lobo-- **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.** http://www.geocities.com/spenecial Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From lumen_dei at freeler.nl Wed Jun 6 12:09:59 2001 From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 14:09:59 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid in Slytherin??? & in defense of Slytherin and mankind in general References: <9fdemj+hit9@eGroups.com> <000a01c0edb0$323476e0$1ea474d5@PoorClares> Message-ID: <000101c0ee82$04b1e360$c37874d5@PoorClares> No: HPFGUIDX 20276 SORRY! I am a near idiot sometimes when it comes to e-mail. Half of my message got cut off, so I am trying again. Patience with the impaired, please.... Maria Catherine wrote in reply to my speculation: I don't think that it's been mentioned in the books, but it has certainly come up in interviews and JKR has said that Hagrid was in Gryffindor. I was most perturbed to find that it could cross anyone's mind that Hagrid should belong in Slytherin. I just don't see what qualities he has which fits in there - for me, he has the qualities of a Gryffindor (bravery) and of Hufflepuff (unswavering loyalty and hardworking) and although, like Harry, he isn't averse to disregarding rules, he certainly isn't ambitious, and he would not do anything to attain his own selfish ends. His giant blood may come out in his rather bloodthirsty love of scary and dangerous creatures, but his almost killing Karkarof I put down to losing his temper, and not knowing his own strength. We don't look at Harry when he loses his temper, and say "Oh dear, lost his temper again, maybe he should belong in Slytherin." Likewise with Hermione when she slaps Draco across the face. It's just that Hagrid, being half-giant, probably has more to control - I don't think he intended to kill Karkarof - just shake him up a little. Finally, the giants may have an affinity with the Dark Side, but I don't think that it is said anywhere that they have any magical powers. Hagrid is not a pureblood wizard - he is half and half, and also he is only half human. The Slytherins pride themselves on being pureblood, therefore I can't see that a half giant would be acceptable to them, or sorted into their house. Catherine First let me thank those who assure me that JKR has said in at least one interview that Hagrid is in Gryffindor. Your word is good enough for me. It definitely is not in Book I; I just finished reading it through to check. I am, needless to say, happy that he is there for I do like him and like people I like to be in "my" house... That being said, I must go on to play the Devil's Advocate in regard to some remarks made about my theory: Melanie finds it humorous and Catherine is "perturbed". I'm beginning to wonder if I don't have some type of hex upon me, but here it goes point by point: 1) Hagrid is courageous. Well, so is Snape, one of the most courageous we seen so far. Draco is cowardly to be sure, but the Slytherins are not excluded from this gift. Neither is Hufflepuff since Cedric was from that house. Courage is not exclusive; you have to have it in an outstanding degree. Whether his propensity for wrestling with trolls is real courage or just a lack of good judgment I will leave to those who dwell in Ravenclaw.... 2) "like Harry, he isn't averse to disregarding rules.." hmmm, but that was Dumbledore's line when at the end of CoS he is pointing out the similarities between Harry and Tom Riddle, how Harry has some of the characteristics for which Salazar looked. Which means Hagrid is also evidencing that characteristic, and to a very big degree. When the wizarding community takes your wand and breaks it in half, and you spend the next (?) years with it hidden in your umbrella...that is a might more than "disregard". 3) Granted he lost his temper with Karkaroff, but there is no excuse for putting a pig's tail on Dudley...except that we all enjoyed it immensely. It was the father who insulted Dumbledore, and he could have removed it before taking off the next morning once he calmed down... Attacking a Muggle child..... 4) Being a half-blood doesn't exclude you from Slytherin; Tom Riddle was half-Muggle, almost the worse thing possible, and yet not only is he in Slytherin, but he is the heir of Salazar. If the hat put a half-breed like that in Slytherin, it can put a half-giant in as well, IMO. But the real question behind all this is: how do we see Slytherin. Personally I cannot see it being suppressed without emptying the books of all moral value...and JKR has stressed the moral content of her books, making a very emphatic publication of her personal belief in God...which you would expect of anyone who is a raving fan of GKChesterton ( www.geocities.com/lumen_dei/rowling.html ). They are a mirror of our world: a combination of the good, the bad and the ugly (boy, do I hate dating myself that way) and even deeper: a mirror of each individual, again a mix-up of good, bad and ugly...or perhaps stupid, for those who pride themselves on their straight noses. And since no one this side of death is all good or all bad (I'm excluding some theological fine points there), you have to have Slytherin, nor can you just jam only the bad into it. Slytherin is not the juvenile delinquent wing of Hogwarts. Putting Hagrid into it, would be a wonderful way to emphasize this: that you make yourself what you are through your own decisions, even if the company isn't the best. Bad company is perhaps the worse thing that can happen to a young person, but the fact that every student at the Slytherin stood up to honor Cedric, and a good portion stood up to honor Harry underscores that. I am hoping that she will do this in a future book: show us a character or two who not being in the "know" as Harry was, didn't have the good sense to say, "Not Slytherin, Not Slytherin". Dickens loves to place a person of real character in the midst of those bad or going bad. Redemption rarely hopes down on a person from the air; it is usually mediated through a person. So I remain hopeful for something good to happen in Slytherin. Maria (a Gryffindor at heart) Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop -- "Have Wand, Will Wave" www.geocities.com/lumen_dei [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 12:20:55 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 05:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: <7d.16179121.284efa01@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010606122055.23629.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20277 which brings up a question I have: Cho saw the faux dementors before Harry. She screamed and pointed down. Was that really a spontaneous reaction of fear? Or did she deliberately point down, hoping Harry would fall again and give her a clear shot at the Snitch? Jami I think she was hoping he would move that he would move to the side a bit, I don't think she wanted to see Harry fall. But then maybe she did...I knew there was some reason I never liked her LOL.. Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 12:35:48 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 05:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAT In-Reply-To: <003301c0ee4c$b75fadc0$7d4e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20010606123548.5590.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20278 I'm just going to put my 2 cents in here on this. I am going back to something my educational psych teacher said, when you like a person there appearance does not mean as much to you. For example, we love Mrs. Weasley the fact that she is a plump women is often forgotten or just not really an issue. Dudley obesity only is an issue because we do not like his character. If we loved Dudley then it wouldn't matter what he weighed. It just is realistic..on the part of JKR to place so much emphasis on appearance with Dudley. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From golden_faile at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 12:57:55 2001 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 05:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010606125755.2942.qmail@web3704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20279 --- Schlobin at aol.com wrote: > One of my friends, Rich, who is a professor at the > University of Michigan > School of Social Work gave me permission to post > these comments to this list > > "I love the Harry Potter books too. > But anyway, something that really bugs me about the > books is her depiction > of obesity and her equating it with sloth, greed, > and narrow-mindedness > (her depiction of Harry's cousin). I think that > continues to promote > intolerance and mistreatment based on weight. I feel > these wildly popular > books will not do much for kids who are bullied and > ostracized based on > weight. > On the who's who in Harry Potter website, notice the > description of Dudley: > "Dudley Dursley: Harry's chubby, spoiled and bratty > cousin, also a Muggle." > I bet nine of out ten kids would start with a > description of Dudley's > weight as his defining characteristic." > > I brought up Hagrid and Molly and noted that Mrs. > Malfoy is thin, but still > think > that this is an issue worth discussing... > > Susan > I had the same thought. My son is rather chubby and I didn't want him to feel bad about himself, however, I think her representation of Dudley upset me more than him. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From Allyse at my-deja.com Wed Jun 6 13:15:05 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 13:15:05 -0000 Subject: Cho and the dementors In-Reply-To: <7d.16179121.284efa01@aol.com> Message-ID: <9flacp+stn8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20280 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > Cho saw the faux dementors before Harry. > She screamed and pointed down. Was that really a spontaneous reaction of > fear? Or did she deliberately point down, hoping Harry would fall again and > give her a clear shot at the Snitch? I always wondered about that too, and I admit that I've always been very suspicious about that. What in the world was Cho doing looking down in the first place? Her eyes should have been fixed on the Snitch, just like Harry's. It's almost as if she *knew* there was something down there to distract him, isn't it...? Hmm. Anyone want to go through the Cho scenes and show that she's really the Wormtail type? :) Allyse From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 14:07:10 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:07:10 -0000 Subject: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <9fjoth+c1hp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fldee+q2q1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20281 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: > > Actually, two other people have already since posted it: Lupin's > assigning the vampire essay. This was my canon-clincher; read that > scene again when Snape catches Harry just after the mud-slinging > scene. Read especially where Snape calls Lupin in to discuss the > Map; the last thing Snape says in this scene is "You don't think it > more likely that he got it directly from the manufacturers?" Next is > when Ron comes barging in and Lupin takes the Map back. Doesn't seem > very Snape-like for him not to say another word in all this. THEN is > when Lupin tells the boys he needs a word with them about the vampire > essay; Harry "didn't dare look at Snape as they left his office,"-- > wonder what his expression/reaction was when Lupin mentioned the > vampire essay? I love that part also. I can see Lupin rubbing that *vampire essay* in Snape's face. Not that I blame him either. I think he did it to remind Snape that he knows about the vampirism and not to mess with him. Lupin didn't appreciate that little assignment Snape gave his class. Can't wait for Lupin to be back. Of course, he had to leave because Snape showed Lupin you don't mess with him either! Right before all this happens, Neville and Harry are discussing the vampire essay and Snape comes upon them. Hint, hint. Vampires and Snape. > > You think it will be that long? I'm really hoping it's revealed in > 5... There are many things I would like revealed but don't think we will see in book 5. If he is one, I too would like to see it sooner rather than later. I have my reasons why I think he keeps it hidden but it's rather long. I posted it in snapefans so I hate to post it here. I'm too lazy and most people don't want to hear it anyway ^_~ >My thinking is that she'll take bits and > pieces from all the vampire lore, whether ancient or recent, and add > her own spin... Yep! > I even searched the messages > and archives for your old posts on it. I don't think I have posted hardly anything on this board about it. It's in snapefans, where Snape lovers talk about Snape at all times with other obsessed fans. Dean Thomas wants a vampire DADA teacher. How funny if there is already a vampire teacher at Hogwarts and none of the kids know it! Just a couple of paragraphs after Dean's remarks we read this: A muscle twitched unpleasantly at the corner of Snape's thin mouth every time he looked at Harry, and he was constantly flexing his fingers, as though itching to place them around Harry's throat. I personally don't care if Snape is one or not. It won't kill me if he isn't. Still, I think it could make for a very interesting story and there are just so many hints about it in the books. Then again, JKR has fooled me on just about everything. Koinonia From blpurdom at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 14:17:10 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 07:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAT In-Reply-To: <20010606123548.5590.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010606141710.13610.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20282 --- Melanie Brackney wrote: > > I'm just going to put my 2 cents in here on this. I > am going back to something my educational psych > teacher said, when you like a person there > appearance does not mean as much to you. For > example, we love Mrs. Weasley the fact that she is a > plump women is often forgotten or just not really an > issue. Dudley obesity only is an issue because we > do not like his character. If we loved Dudley then > it wouldn't matter what he weighed. It just is > realistic..on the part of JKR to place so much > emphasis on appearance with Dudley. > > Melanie > Perhaps the implication is that Molly is not vain and does not spend her life trying to be thin and fashionable. OTOH, Dudley's weight is illustrative of his personality--his piggishness and selfishness. Molly is so focussed on other people, she seems to have forgotten about taking care of herself, whereas his piggy self is ALL Dudley cares about. Ironically, their physiques suffer the same consequences. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From margdean at erols.com Wed Jun 6 13:51:10 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:51:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Technology References: <9fka6p+3rs8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B1E354E.2F796406@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20283 Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com wrote: > > There's a quote in the science fiction realms -- I don't remember the > exact wording and speaker -- but I want to say it was Isaac Asimov. > > "Any sufficiiently adavanced form of technology is indistinguishable > from magic." > > Can anyone put a name to this? Certainly. It's Clarke's Third Law. (as in Arthur C. Clarke) --Margaret Dean From blpurdom at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 14:32:23 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 07:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 947 In-Reply-To: <20010606113827.59463.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010606143223.16291.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20284 --- Nethilia De Lobo wrote: > Devika: > BTW, I've been trying to figure out the > significance of the stag in mythology, but I haven't > had much luck. Could someone point me in the > right direction or tell me what they came up with? > I read someone's post about the stag being an enemy > of the serpent, but I would like to be able to find > something more detailed. > > I remember a myth: the White Stag of Greek > Mythology. The fourth of Hercules's (or Heracles, if > I must use the Greek name) twelve tasks was to catch > the White stag. It was a sacred beast to the Godess > Artemis goddess of the moon, hunting, childbirth, > virginity, and unmarried young women [snip] Another stag myth that concerns Artemis [this one with transfiguration] is the story of Actaeon, a hunter who came upon the goddess bathing; offended at being seen naked by a man, she turned him into a stag and he was chased and killed by his own hounds. This story is coincidentally told/sung by the lady-in-waiting Belinda to Queen Dido of Carthage in Purcell's chamber opera "Dido and Aeneas," which features a band of witches who curse the title lovers and cause the queen's death. Stags and harts are often treated interchangeably in English folk traditions, and plays on the words "hart" and "heart" were very popular in madrigals and even used in the King James translation of the Bible (Psalm 42). The stag/hart was a symbol of purity because it supposedly retired to mountain tops to be alone. (Hence the etymology of "stag" being used to mean "dateless.") __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From blpurdom at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 16:14:51 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Technology In-Reply-To: <9fka6p+3rs8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010606161451.56798.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20285 --- Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com wrote: > There's a quote in the science fiction realms -- I > don't remember the > exact wording and speaker -- but I want to say it > was Isaac Asimov. > > "Any sufficiiently adavanced form of technology is > indistinguishable > from magic." > > Can anyone put a name to this? According to quoteland.com this is an Arthur C. Clarke quote. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Wed Jun 6 16:36:51 2001 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:36:51 -0000 Subject: FAT; Location of Durmstrang (near Kandalaksa?) Message-ID: <9flm73+5ide@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20286 --- Susan wrote: > One of my friends, Rich, who is a professor at the University > of Michigan School of Social Work gave me permission to post > these comments to this list > > "I love the Harry Potter books too. > But anyway, something that really bugs me about the books is > her depiction of obesity and her equating it with sloth, greed, > and narrow-mindedness (her depiction of Harry's cousin). I > think that continues to promote intolerance and mistreatment > based on weight. I feel these wildly popular books will not do > much for kids who are bullied and ostracized based on weight. > On the who's who in Harry Potter website, notice the > description of Dudley: "Dudley Dursley: Harry's chubby, spoiled > and bratty cousin, also a Muggle." I bet nine of out ten kids > would start with a description of Dudley's weight as his > defining characteristic." > > I brought up Hagrid and Molly and noted that Mrs. Malfoy is > thin, but still think that this is an issue worth discussing... > > Susan One further person noted as having some weight to him, without being viewed as evil or vicious, is Ernie MacMillan, who in CoS is described as "stout", and having "pudgy hands". --- Catherine wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > > Where is Durmstrang? Could it be somewhere around Romania, > > Poland, Bulgaria? Seems to be very close to areas that are > > filled with vampire folklore. > > > > Krum's father spoke in Bulgarian. > > I've wondered about this too, and am not sure. I initially > assumed that it was somewhere in Eastern Europe, but when > they have started talking about mountains and glaciers, I > thought that perhaps it could be somewhere in Scandinavia. Durmstrang is located in Northern continental Europe, as indicated by the descriptions of climate and geography that were given in GoF. At a book-reading in Glasgow some thousands messages ago, JKR stated that she thought Durmstrang was in the extreme North of Norway or Sweden, and Beauxbatons was in the South of France. Being Norwegian myself, and living in the North of Norway, I was less than thrilled with JKR's revelation. Luckily, she proceeded to modify her statement, saying that she wasn't sure, since there were so many protective charms surrounding the two schools. See the following messages for details: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/6494 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/6497 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/6501 Myself, I had a theory, prior to above-mentioned book-reading, that Durmstrang was somewhere near Kandalak?a, which is a city/town in the inner end of the Kandalak?a Bay, which branches off Westwards from the White Sea. This is all on the Kola peninsula, in the extreme Northwest of mainland Russia, and the geography (near open ocean, mountains, lakes, cold climate) fits. I am still somewhat partial to this theory, as it fits the implied cultural connections of Durmstrang far better than does a location in Norway or Sweden. I made a more detailed post about this, as rhodhry at yahoo.no, some time prior to JKR's book-reading; the message, and a related message which was a reply in the abovementioned thread, can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/5961 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/6534 A possible explanation for placing a seemingly German-inspired school with Slavic clientele in the North of Scandinavia, may be that the school originally was founded in the Teutonic states, on the Baltic coast of present-day Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, but then was forced to flee that location in the face of persecution by the Teutonic Order. Maybe it even was founded before the Teutonic Crusades in that area, and the creation of the Teutonic States was what brought about the relocation. Best regards Christian Stub? (delurking briefly) From priscilla at theninemuses.net Wed Jun 6 16:37:32 2001 From: priscilla at theninemuses.net (Priscilla Spencer) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:37:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 947 Message-ID: <004601c0eea6$ff2b8d40$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> No: HPFGUIDX 20287 Ironically enough, the lily is a symbol of purity as well. Priscilla Spencer The stag/hart was a symbol of purity because it supposedly retired to mountain tops to be alone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joym999 at aol.com Wed Jun 6 16:42:16 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:42:16 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat, was Re: Hagrid in Slytherin??? & in defense of Slytherin... In-Reply-To: <000101c0ee82$04b1e360$c37874d5@PoorClares> Message-ID: <9flmh8+85cp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20288 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lumen" wrote: > 1) Hagrid is courageous. Well, so is Snape, one of the most courageous we seen so far. Draco is cowardly to be sure, but the Slytherins are not excluded from this gift. Neither is Hufflepuff since Cedric was from that house. Courage is not exclusive; you have to have it in an outstanding degree. > I have a somewhat different opinion of how sorting works. I dont think the Sorting Hat places people in the various houses because of their predominant personality traits. If so, it would have placed Hermione in Ravenclaw. I think the Sorting Hat places people according to what, deep in their hearts, each person values and admires the most. Neville is a total klutz, on the surface he does not seem like much of a Gryffindor, but inside he knows (probably all too well, because of his parents) and believes strongly in the importance of having the courage to fight for what you believe in. Hermione, at one point I think in PoA, says something to Harry about how her skills are just book-learning and cleverness, but Harrys courage is what she really respects (someone will, I am sure, supply us with the proper quote.) So, Cedric Diggory may well be (or have been I guess I should say -- poor Cedric) courageous, or for that matter intelligent and ambitious as well, but what he believes is most important is hard work. And Slytherins may be courageous (like Snape, I suppose) or not (Draco); or they may be intelligent (no examples available) or not (Crabbe, Goyle) but what they value the most is ambition, and working relentlessly towards ones personal goal (whether it be to market a line of haircare products or to be Evil Overlord of the Universe) > 4) Being a half-blood doesn't exclude you from Slytherin; Tom Riddle was half-Muggle, almost the worse thing possible, and yet not only is he in Slytherin, but he is the heir of Salazar > How do we know that Tom Riddle was in Slytherin? Is it ever explicitly stated? Granted, it is a logical assumption, but.... --Joywitch From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 6 16:56:17 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:56:17 -0000 Subject: Cho, Dementors and Quidditch. Message-ID: <9flnbh+c8t8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20289 The question was posed whether Cho pointed out the Dementors to scare Harry or to save him. I really think She did it to warn him about them. In my little world, Cho really likes Harry. I think she was disappointed that she had to say no to Harry when he asked her to the Yule Ball. Of course, Quidditch is a really intense game and the seeker should really not take his/her eyes off of the snitch once it has been spotted, but how many times have you been looking at something very intently and something moves in the periphery of your vision and your eyes dart over for just a moment? So my theory on all this is, if you haven't guessed already, Cho had her eye on the snithc, but the "dementors" came into her field of view and wanting to warn Harry, because she likes him, she screamed and pointed. It would have been waaaaaay to lame for her to just fly up to him and say quietly, "Oy! Harry! Look at those scary old Dementors lurking about." Michelle :) p.s. harrypotter.com says I'm a Gryffindor :) I think I need a new name though, Michelle just doesn't seems witchly enough :) From old_wych at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 17:05:09 2001 From: old_wych at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 17:05:09 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat, was Re: Hagrid in Slytherin??? & in defense of Slytherin... In-Reply-To: <9flmh8+85cp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9flns5+t1sg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20290 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote > > > > How do we know that Tom Riddle was in Slytherin? Is it ever > explicitly stated? Granted, it is a logical assumption, but.... > > --Joywitch In PS/SS, chpater 6 Hagrid says he was. I don't know if people think this a reliable quote or not, since it immediately follows the bit about all dark wizards having been in Slytherin. "'There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know- Who was one.'" In Hagrid's defense, he should know; he was at school at the same time as Riddle. Anne From JamiDeise at aol.com Wed Jun 6 17:22:09 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:22:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat, was Re: Hagrid in Slytherin??? & in defense ... Message-ID: <17.16cc6e68.284fc0c1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20291 In a message dated 6/6/2001 12:45:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, joym999 at aol.com writes: << I dont think the Sorting Hat places people in the various houses because of their predominant personality traits. If so, it would have placed Hermione in Ravenclaw. I think the Sorting Hat places people according to what, deep in their hearts, each person values and admires the most. >> Most people have a combination of all the traits about which the Sorting Hat sings. I believe it makes its decision based on which trait will trump at decisive moments. We all know Hermione is brilliant. But almost all of the time, when faced with a choice, she goes "brave" over "smart" ... lying for Harry and Ron over the troll incident in PS/SS, confronting the basilisk herself in CoS, etc. etc. The "smart" decision would have been to tell a teacher. Likewise, Neville, while definitely a klutz and still coming onto his own as a wizard, in PS/SS alone tries to warn Harry about Malfoy, and then stop the three from sneaking out of the tower. He is definitely very brave! Likewise, in CoS, Harry and Ron fly a car to Hogwarts when they can't get through the barrier. Why didn't they just send an owl? "Brave" truimphs over "smart." The Hufflepuffs are "just, loyal and true," according to the Hat in PS/SS. In PoA, Cedric wants to play the game over when he catches the Snitch after Harry falls off his broom. In GoF, he refuses to beat a hobbled Harry to the Cup. And those cunning Slytherins use any means to achieve their end. In GoF, Malfoy is turned into a ferret when he tries to attack Harry when his back is turned. I don't know enough about any of the Ravenclaws, except to say that right now I'm wondering why Percy wasn't placed in this house. Haven't seen him do anything brave yet. Perhaps that's forthcoming. Jami From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org Wed Jun 6 17:50:00 2001 From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 10:50:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20292 >"I love the Harry Potter books too. >But anyway, something that really bugs me about the books is her depiction >of obesity and her equating it with sloth, greed, and narrow-mindedness >(her depiction of Harry's cousin). I think that continues to promote >intolerance and mistreatment based on weight. I feel these wildly popular >books will not do much for kids who are bullied and ostracized based on >weight. >On the who's who in Harry Potter website, notice the description of Dudley: >"Dudley Dursley: Harry's chubby, spoiled and bratty cousin, also a Muggle." >I bet nine of out ten kids would start with a description of Dudley's >weight as his defining characteristic." I'm often torn here. I do a fair bit of size activism, and I'm usually very aware of size-ist actions (as a larger girl myself) and while part of me says 'it's just a way to show his selfish, gluttonous character traits' but then again, kids don't need many excuses to see 'Dudley is gluttonous and selfish and so he's fat. Johnny is fat, too, so he must be selfish and gluttonous, I bet he's a bad person, like Dudley.' Kids are mean enough about little things, and as a kid who people made barnyard noises to (even though I was barely chubby as a kid, now that I look back) and our society is extremely bad about saying 'because you're fat it must mean you're lazy or not trying hard enough or following enough fad diets to lose weight' instead of saying 'it's not easy to be fat in our society, I don't know why anyone would choose to be fat, so there must be a medical reason somewhere for it,' or something along those lines. I don't think Molly or Hagrid can really be used as positive larger characters. Hagrid isn't 'fat,' he's just a big guy all over, same with Madame Maxime, and they don't really mention Molly as 'fat' either. Regardless, with kids, they're looking at the kid characters. Grown-ups get more respect as large people from kids than other kids who are fat do. There aren't _any_ fat kids except Dudley. That's my beef. To say Dudley is gluttonous and selfish and fat wouldn't be as big a deal if there was at least one other 'good' kid is fat. It's a comparison between 'bad' fat, slow, obnoxious Dudley, who can't even buy clothes to fit him (and let me tell you, you have to be extremely large for this to be the case, and even with his gluttony it would be hard for a 13 year old to achieve this) and 'good' thin, quick, charming Harry, who fights evil, is the fast seeker and everyone loves him. It's a pretty extreme comparison for kids to see and say 'thin is fast and good and everyone loves Harry, while fat is slow and bad and everyone hates Dudley.' I know that's simplifying and believe me, I don't tend to fly off the handle about such things, but it does bug me on some levels. Obviously not enough to discount the books, as I'm as obsessed as the best of them (I wear a lightning bolt pin on the lapel of my Hogwarts jean jacket with my golden snitch necklace proudly). Just thought I'd put in my 2 knuts worth on a subject close to me. Meredith From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 6 18:14:47 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:14:47 -0000 Subject: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <9fldee+q2q1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9flrun+jthk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20293 There's a clincher for the clincher: GoF ch. 14, where "Moody" tells his class he's had a letter from Professor Lupin about what they covered last year: "boggarts, Red Caps, hinkypunks, grindylows, Kappas and werewolves." Vampires are omitted, very significantly in my view. Were they an unplanned addition to Lupin's lesson plan? There's still time to cast your vote. Pippin ---One man and the truth is a majority -anonymous --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: > > > > Actually, two other people have already since posted it: Lupin's > > assigning the vampire essay. This was my canon-clincher; read that > > scene again when Snape catches Harry just after the mud-slinging > > scene. From andromache815 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 18:26:01 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 08:26:01 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] in defense of Slytherin... References: <9flmh8+85cp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20294 Joywitch: or they may be intelligent (no examples available) Hey. Are you saying Slyths aren't intelligent? If most of them are cunning, they must be intelligent. Vicky From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 6 18:25:44 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:25:44 -0000 Subject: Technology and magic Message-ID: <9flsj8+23jn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20295 Magic fills a niche that technology cannot. The fantasy of the magic wand allows us to imagine what, as children, all of us believed: that we could learn to control the outside world in the same exclusive, mysterious and innate way in which we learned to form our thoughts and move our fingers and toes. That is why I feel disappointed by explanations, be they scientific "it's genetics" or pseudo-scientific "midi-chlorian". However entertaining or plausible they might be, they cheat me of that longing. Pippin From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Wed Jun 6 18:33:45 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Carnegie) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 19:33:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 13 Summary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20296 05/06/01 23:41:14, Andrea wrote: >--- rja.carnegie at excite.com wrote: >> Let's be fair. All they did was to dress up in a >> scary costume. >> How wrong is that, really? > >They dressed up with malicious intent. Remember that >seeing the Dementors last time made Harry fall off his >broom, plummet 50 feet, and nearly die. Malfoy and >company specifically intended that Harry at the least >be distracted and lose the game, and at the most be >seriously injured. But _seeing_ Dementors isn't what affects Harry so badly - it's their, um, dementing-power. However, it just occurred to me that since Malfoy is on his House team, a higher standard of behaviour is expected - practical jokes on opponents are out of order. Still, fifty points _is_ quite a lot. On the other hand, I feel that house points are taken too seriously - I hope that if I were a Hogwarts student then I could muster a healthy disrespect for the points system. But it's part of the school's culture. Excuse me, I haven't read the essay on points yet. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From reanna20 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 18:56:49 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <9fldee+q2q1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010606185649.22731.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20297 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: > > Actually, two other people have already since posted it: Lupin's > assigning the vampire essay. This was my canon-clincher; read that > scene again when Snape catches Harry just after the mud-slinging > scene. Read especially where Snape calls Lupin in to discuss the > Map; the last thing Snape says in this scene is "You don't think it > more likely that he got it directly from the manufacturers?" Next > is when Ron comes barging in and Lupin takes the Map back. Doesn't > seem very Snape-like for him not to say another word in all this. > THEN is when Lupin tells the boys he needs a word with them about the > vampire essay; Perhaps I'm being completely obtuse, but why would Snape be malicious about Lupin's werewolf heritage if Snape himself is a vampire? I can understand Snape hating Lupin because he was friends with James/Sirius and because of the "trick" but if he was a vampire, you would think he'd have enough empathy to not twit Lupin about being a werewolf. Or maybe not. This *is* Snape we're talking about. But if *I* was a creature of the night, I'd be careful about being prejudiced against another person just because they were a creature of the night as well. If Snape were hiding his heritage (and if he weren't, we'd have known about it in Book 1), it doesn't make sense to assign the essay on werewolves to expose Lupin when Lupin could turn around and expose Snape. Rather daft in my opinion, and Snape does *not* strike me as daft. ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/2/2001 " 'I think it was a bit of an overreaction,' said the serpent. 'I mean, first offense and everything. I can't see what's so bad about knowing the difference between good and evil, anyway.' " - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jun 6 18:19:02 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 13:19:02 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Posting Dos & Don'ts (A refresher course) Message-ID: <3B1E7416.5985354B@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20298 Hi everyone -- Trying to spare you all Flying Ford Anglia in a hairnet or John with Rock #47, here's Penny with a few friendly Do's & Don't's when posting messages. But first, a special note for our Digest Users. Digest Users: PLEASE take care not to have RE: Digest Number ___ as your subject heading. This doesn't tell anyone what your message is about. People who have limited time to read the groups' voluminous messages may very well just delete messages that have a subject heading of RE: Digest # such & such (:::cough:::). SUBJECT HEADINGS DO be sure your subject heading reflects what your message is about DO change the subject heading if the subject has veered on to something else from the original topic (if it was about grindylows but now the message is about the Mirror of Erised for some reason, don't just hit reply & have it say "RE: Grindylows") DON'T send a message that says RE: Digest #34 in the subject line QUOTED MATERIAL DO include enough quoted material to give context to your message (if you're replying to something someone else said, include enough of what they said so that others can follow what you're talking about) DON'T include all of someone else's message in your reply if it isn't necessary; Edit out the parts that don't have any bearing on your message DON'T forget to delete all the unnecessary footers, etc. underneath your own message when you've replied to someone else's message SIGNATURE LINES DON'T include really really long signature files at the end of your messages. A signature file of a few lines or a favorite quote is fine, but remember: Less is More MULTIPLE REPLIES DO combine your short replies into a single message (change the subject heading to reflect all the subjects you're addressing though) DON'T send multiple short "one-liner" messages to the list (see above -- COMBINE into a single message) OFF-TOPIC MESSAGES DO post Off-Topic messages to our sister group, HPforGrownups-OTChatter (link on our homepage) DON'T post a message to the main group that says "This may be off-topic but ..." Okay, that's it for the brief refresher course. That wasn't so painful, right? Thanks for listening! Penny From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 6 19:10:27 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 19:10:27 -0000 Subject: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <20010606185649.22731.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9flv73+cm0l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20299 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber wrote: but why would Snape be malicious > about Lupin's werewolf heritage if Snape himself is a vampire? I see by your sig you are a Pratchett fan. Have you read Carpe Jugulum? The traditional enmity between werewolves and vampires is not just a Pratchett invention. My sense is that Snape is much further in the closet than Lupin...I think Snape believes nobody knows what he is (possibly excepting Dumbledore and Voldemort), so he didn't think that Lupin could expose him when he assigned the werewolf essay. And once *Lupin* was exposed as a werewolf, Snape didn't need to be afraid of what Lupin might say about him, because as Dumbledore says, most wizards are so mistrustful of werewolves that their word counts for very little. Added to that, the fact that Lupin and Snape are old enemies...well! Pippin An ardent Snape fan, who is quite willing to believe that Snape would call the kettle black. After all, he rants about Dumbledore favoring Harry, but he himself favors the Slytherins outrageously. From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Jun 6 19:14:27 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 12:14:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Technology In-Reply-To: <9fka6p+3rs8@eGroups.com> References: <9fk40s+dmqr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606121116.0346e100@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20300 At 04:05 AM 6/6/01 +0000, Belle_Starr_777 at yahoo.com wrote: >"Any sufficiiently adavanced form of technology is indistinguishable >from magic." > >Can anyone put a name to this? I'm tempted to call it "The Oz Principle", since the Oz books seems to be one of the few fantasy universes in which Magic and 20th century technology has been allowed to peacefully co-exist, but I'm sure there are better possible names. And for the record, it was Arthur C. Clarke who said it. -- Dave, who holds out hope of living to see the day when Quidditch is technologically feasable From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jun 6 18:54:42 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 13:54:42 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Posting Dos & Don'ts (A refresher course) Message-ID: <3B1E7C72.2E4AD8D2@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20301 Hi everyone -- Trying to spare you all Flying Ford Anglia in a hairnet or John with Rock #47, here's Penny with a few friendly Do's & Don't's when posting messages. But first, a special note for our Digest Users. Digest Users: PLEASE take care not to have RE: Digest Number ___ as your subject heading. This doesn't tell anyone what your message is about. People who have limited time to read the groups' voluminous messages may very well just delete messages that have a subject heading of RE: Digest # such & such (:::cough:::). SUBJECT HEADINGS DO be sure your subject heading reflects what your message is about DO change the subject heading if the subject has veered on to something else from the original topic (if it was about grindylows but now the message is about the Mirror of Erised for some reason, don't just hit reply & have it say "RE: Grindylows") DON'T send a message that says RE: Digest #34 in the subject line QUOTED MATERIAL DO include enough quoted material to give context to your message (if you're replying to something someone else said, include enough of what they said so that others can follow what you're talking about) DON'T include all of someone else's message in your reply if it isn't necessary; Edit out the parts that don't have any bearing on your message DON'T forget to delete all the unnecessary footers, etc. underneath your own message when you've replied to someone else's message SIGNATURE LINES DON'T include really really long signature files at the end of your messages. A signature file of a few lines or a favorite quote is fine, but remember: Less is More MULTIPLE REPLIES DO combine your short replies into a single message (change the subject heading to reflect all the subjects you're addressing though) DON'T send multiple short "one-liner" messages to the list (see above -- COMBINE into a single message) OFF-TOPIC MESSAGES DO post Off-Topic messages to our sister group, HPforGrownups-OTChatter (link on our homepage) DON'T post a message to the main group that says "This may be off-topic but ..." Okay, that's it for the brief refresher course. That wasn't so painful, right? Thanks for listening! Penny From celticmojo2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 19:24:07 2001 From: celticmojo2002 at yahoo.com (Monica Hoover) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010606192407.61371.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20302 I just read this and i think you people are reading way to much into this. It's just a childrens book for crying out loud. so it happens to be perverted, anything can be perverted if you look at it the right way. --- Schlobin at aol.com wrote: > One of my friends, Rich, who is a professor at the > University of Michigan > School of Social Work gave me permission to post > these comments to this list > > "I love the Harry Potter books too. > But anyway, something that really bugs me about the > books is her depiction > of obesity and her equating it with sloth, greed, > and narrow-mindedness > (her depiction of Harry's cousin). I think that > continues to promote > intolerance and mistreatment based on weight. I feel > these wildly popular > books will not do much for kids who are bullied and > ostracized based on > weight. > On the who's who in Harry Potter website, notice the > description of Dudley: > "Dudley Dursley: Harry's chubby, spoiled and bratty > cousin, also a Muggle." > I bet nine of out ten kids would start with a > description of Dudley's > weight as his defining characteristic." > > I brought up Hagrid and Molly and noted that Mrs. > Malfoy is thin, but still > think > that this is an issue worth discussing... > > Susan > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the > HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for > everyone to sort through the messages they want to > read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read > OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to > join now! For more details, contact the Moderator > Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From joym999 at aol.com Wed Jun 6 19:31:44 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 19:31:44 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Posting Dos & Don'ts (A refresher course) In-Reply-To: <3B1E7C72.2E4AD8D2@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9fm0f0+h6kc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20303 Just thought I would stick my unofficial nose in and add a few more DOs and DON'Ts: DON'T respond to a post which contains an informational question (for example, "Who is Florence?" or "Where does it say that Hagrid is half- giant?") without first checking to see if others have already responded. If you are reading the messages at the Yahoo site then responses are listed at the bottom of each message. If you are reading messages thru email please read thru all of them (or at least the subject headings) and THEN post a response to a question only if no one else has, unless you are adding new information. DON'T post something that is directed to only one or a few people. Email them directly instead. I am also tempted to add: DON'T post the same message twice. but I won't, because I wouldn't dream of making fun of Penny. --Joywitch, who really just added DON'Ts and no DOs, but what should you expect from a curmudgeon? From ebonyink at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 20:16:17 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 20:16:17 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Stag in Mythology Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20304 >Devika: > > >>BTW, I've been trying to figure out the significance >of the stag in >mythology, but I haven't had much luck. Could someone >point me in the >right >direction or tell me what they came up with? I read >someone's post >about the >stag being an enemy of the serpent, but I would like >to be able to find > >>something more detailed. > Nethilia: >I remember a myth: the White Stag of Greek Mythology. >The fourth of Hercules's (or Heracles, if I must use >the Greek name) twelve tasks was to catch the White >stag. It was a sacred beast to the Godess Artemis >(goddess of the moon, hunting, childbirth, virginity, >and unmarried young women). Herculese hunted it down >and was about to catch it when Artemis appeared and >threatened to kill him for hunting in her forests. >When he explained, however, she allowed him to take >the stag as long as he took it unharmed. He did as >such and took the stag to the King (who had one of >those long annoying names I can't remember). Chalk up >another for Hercie. > >He did also kill the Nemean lion. Hmm.... > Isn't there also a white stag associated with Arthurian legend? I seem to recall the Knights of the Round Table hunting a white stag in association with Arthur and Guinevere's wedding... but the book I read this in is over my grandmother's house across town. Can anyone else confirm this? --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Allyse at my-deja.com Wed Jun 6 20:49:33 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 20:49:33 -0000 Subject: Cho, Dementors and Quidditch. In-Reply-To: <9flnbh+c8t8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fm50t+9589@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20305 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "M. Barnett" wrote: > The question was posed whether Cho pointed out the Dementors to scare > Harry or to save him. I really think She did it to warn him about > them. In my little world, Cho really likes Harry Michelle, I wasn't *completely* serious when I made the suggestion. :) One of the most delightful aspects of Jo's work is the ambiguity. There's enough shading to allow for just about any interpretation. That said, I think it would be fun to try and cast a "Dark Side" shadow on some of the more innocent characters, just to prove that we can. :) Allyse From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 21:13:28 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 14:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cho, Dementors and Quidditch. In-Reply-To: <9flnbh+c8t8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010606211328.21420.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20306 --- "M. Barnett" wrote: > The question was posed whether Cho pointed out the Dementors to > scare > Harry or to save him. I really think She did it to warn him about > them. In my little world, Cho really likes Harry. I think she was All the kids are affected by the Dementors, although not as much as Harry is and so are many of the adults in the book. They just hide it better. The sight of the Dementors on the ground would have been startling to Cho and she reacted instinctively by pointing and crying out. I have seen people react the same way when they were startled without warning. I don't think there was any motive, ulterior or otherwise. She just reacted to an unexpected sight. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Wed Jun 6 21:21:19 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Carnegie) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:21:19 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What are muggles, anyway? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20307 06/06/01 02:14:37, "Milz" wrote: >I'm beginning to rethink the magic gene. Neuroscientists have mapped >out most of the brain and most of the brain functions are known. But >neurotransmiters are still being categorized and sub-categorized. For >example, there are aleast 5 known serotonin receptors; when I was in >school, there were 2 known receptors (and I haven't been out of school >that long!). Next year they'll probably classify a couple of more >serotonin receptors. Same goes for hormones, especially hormones >produced by the gravid uterus. What if Muggles and Wizards differ by >one neurotransmitter and/or one hormone? Then depending on what is or >isn't lacking a wizard can become a Muggle, a Squib/Muggle a wizard, >simply by potentiating or inhibiting the influence of this >neurotransmitter or hormone. Perhaps a special neurotransmitter that conducts magical energy throughout the body via the nervous system would account for wizards' long- livedness - or perhaps it's an indirect benefit, that they know and use a lot of health charms against Muggle illnesses. Can wizards be restrained from using magic, other than by Dementors? And can a Muggle be transformed, perhaps temporarily, into a wizard? We know that magical objects can interact with Muggles - Arthur Weasley's job is to stop that from happening. Intelligent wizards don't look down on Muggles at all, I think, and for that reason Muggle- or non-Muggle-hood isn't a burning issue in the wizard community. The other consideration might be that it simply hasn't been possible to change a person from one to the other. Xenotransplantation... I may at this point be looking very silly for putting off reading GOF...? Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Wed Jun 6 21:21:22 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Carnegie) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:21:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20308 06/06/01 15:17:10, Barbara Purdom wrote: > >--- Melanie Brackney wrote: >> >> I'm just going to put my 2 cents in here on this. I >> am going back to something my educational psych >> teacher said, when you like a person there >> appearance does not mean as much to you. For >> example, we love Mrs. Weasley the fact that she is a >> plump women is often forgotten or just not really an >> issue. Dudley obesity only is an issue because we >> do not like his character. If we loved Dudley then >> it wouldn't matter what he weighed. It just is >> realistic..on the part of JKR to place so much >> emphasis on appearance with Dudley. >> >> Melanie > > Perhaps the implication is that Molly is not vain and >does not spend her life trying to be thin and >fashionable. OTOH, Dudley's weight is illustrative of >his personality--his piggishness and selfishness. >Molly is so focussed on other people, she seems to >have forgotten about taking care of herself, whereas >his piggy self is ALL Dudley cares about. Ironically, >their physiques suffer the same consequences. Re "taking care of herself" - being overweight is dangerous - for Muggles; we can end up with diabetes, heart disease, stroke. I think wizards have a different constitiution, though - tougher - so it doesn't matter to them. Dudley's obese, and also, to us, unappealing - but he's also popular: he has friends (who aren't fat), and when he and Harry are at school together, everyone they know is Dudley's friend, no one is Harry's. Harry's the one who's bullied. Just a thought; in real life, I guess it does tend to go the other way around. I think I wouldn't recommend boarding school to anyone over the alternatives. Dudley probably goes on to have a lousy time at Smeltings that we don't know about. An incontinent appetite isn't an attractive character trait, although it's a hard one to get rid of - I know, mine's only stalemated. It gets harder with age - which doesn't apply to Dudley, of course. And incontinence, or poor education of the palate in children, _is_ (together with inadequate exercise) the primary cause of overweight. If Mrs Dursley is proud of her cooking - cooked breakfast and all that - and if she feeds Dudley like an athlete, in the face of evidence - Cooked breakfast reminds me, I have enough calories in hand tonight for a supper of porridge. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Wed Jun 6 21:21:24 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Carnegie) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:21:24 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vampire Info--rather long Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20309 06/06/01 01:24:40, "Kelley" quoted: >Vampires today, as they are often portrayed in modern day literature, >are much different than the vampires of old...we have >seen in the last twenty years a trend toward a conscientious vampire >who is *tormented by his/her own humanity*. Written after Ann Rice and before _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_? ;-) >[In modern fiction] there are also psychic or >spiritual vampires who draw the life energy of their victims and >sometimes, the very soul. These ones surely sound more like incubus / succubus / Dementor? Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Wed Jun 6 21:21:27 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Carnegie) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:21:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vampire Info--rather long Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20310 06/06/01 08:33:36, catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: >> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: >> Where is Durmstrang? Could it be somewhere around Romania, Poland, >> Bulgaria? Seems to be very close to areas that are filled with >> vampire folklore. >> >> Krum's father spoke in Bulgarian. > >I've wondered about this too, and am not sure. I initially assumed >that it was somewhere in Eastern Europe, but when they have started >talking about mountains and glaciers, I thought that perhaps it could >be somewhere in Scandinavia. Perhaps Switzerland? "Sturm und drang" is German, hence I presume Durmstrang - I'm not sure whether something like it might also work in Dutch - and German is spoken in Switzerland. Mountains, check. Glaciers, check. Sturm und drang, probably. And you know I keep going on about Grindelwald being a skiing resort in Switzerland. Since I'm set up now to read and post offline (was using the Web site, for _hours_) I can't quickly go and look at the excellent list of how names are translated for other languages. In the unlikely event that the Portkey and the Lexicon _don't_ have it, it's the page that mentions both Gryffindor and Gryffondor - English and French. Serdaigle (French Ravenclaw) I didn't figure out yet. But Zurich is more famous for its gnomes... :-) >> Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to >> mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal >> people can't swim in water like that. > >I'm not sure about this. It wasn't much later (February) when all >the champions had to enter the lake. _That's_ Scandinavian, along with saunas and beating with bundles of twigs. There are probably Quidditch jokes about Beaters' broomsticks... On the other hand, there are loonies all over the world who practise outdoor bathing in the middle of winter. Something called the Polar Bears Club. (Do I hear "Animagus"?) Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Wed Jun 6 21:21:30 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Carnegie) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:21:30 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 947 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20311 06/06/01 12:42:43, Nethilia De Lobo wrote: >Ron's first name is Ronald. Can't think of where I saw >his full name though. End of PS, points are awarded to Mr Ronald Weasley. I looked at the letters scene in COS first, but nope. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 21:33:07 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:33:07 -0000 Subject: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <20010606185649.22731.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fm7ij+luar@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20312 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber wrote: > > Perhaps I'm being completely obtuse, but why would Snape be malicious > about Lupin's werewolf heritage if Snape himself is a vampire? I can > understand Snape hating Lupin because he was friends with James/Sirius > and because of the "trick" but if he was a vampire, you would think > he'd have enough empathy to not twit Lupin about being a werewolf. > > Or maybe not. This *is* Snape we're talking about. by SnapeFans> But if *I* was a creature of the night, I'd be careful > about being prejudiced against another person just because they were a > creature of the night as well. Prejudice! That is a big part of it. From a JKR interview with BBC Newsround: "From the beginning of Philosopher's Stone, prejudice is a very strong theme. It is plausible that harry enters the world wide-eyed: everything will be wonderful and it's the sort of place where injustices don't happen. Then he finds out that it does happen and it's a shock to him." There is prejudice in the wizard world. In FB we see that they can't even determine which creature is a "being" and which is a "beast". xiii...The centaurs objected to some of the creatures with whom they were asked to share "being" status with, such as hags and vampires, and declared that they would manage their own affairs separately from wizards. There is a lot of prejudice in this world. Some are so busy calling others prejudice that they can't see or don't care that they themselves are full of prejudice. Not hard to believe at all. Especially when it comes to Snape :) All these groups are going to have to come together if they are to defeat Voldemort and I think that is just what Dumbledore is trying to do. >If Snape were hiding his heritage (and > if he weren't, we'd have known about it in Book 1), it doesn't make > sense to assign the essay on werewolves to expose Lupin when Lupin > could turn around and expose Snape. Rather daft in my opinion, and > Snape does *not* strike me as daft. foxmoth wrote: >My sense is that Snape is much farther in the closet than Lupin...I think Snape believes nobody knows what he is (possible exceptions Dumbledore and Voldemort) so he didn't think Lupin could expose him when he assigned the werewolf essay.>>>>> I think Dumbledore and Voldemort know. It is a bit strange that after Quirrell's travels (where he met Voldy) he comes back to Hogwarts with a new book on vampires and smelling of garlic. Why in the world would he have garlic on him? How many vampires are going to be able to enter the Hogwarts grounds? Go back to the scene in the forest between Quirrell and Snape: 'You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell, 'said Snape, taking a step towards him.' 'I-I don-t know what you-' 'You know perfectly well what I mean.' What does Quirrell know? I also believe that Lupin and his gang guessed a long time ago. Why would Lupin give the vampire essay if he didn't know? Would he have only just recently guessed? foxmoth wrote: >>>>And once Lupin was exposed as a werewolf, Snape didn't need to be afraid of what Lupin might say about him, because as Dumbledore says, most wizards are so mistrustful of werewolves that their word counts for very little. Added to that, the fact that Lupin and Snape are old enemies....well.>>> Snape might not have thought that Lupin would expose him. Like you said, who would believe him. Plus, even though Lupin did give the essay, he never directly told anyone about Snape. Not that we know of. Plus Snape is cunning and I think he felt he could take care of the situation if Lupin accused him of being a vampire. And he did..... foxmoth wrote: >>>An ardent Snape fan, who is quite willing to believe that Snape would call the kettle black>>>>>> Absolutely he would! This ardent Snape fan admits he is like that! >>>There's a clincher for the clincher: GoF ch. 14, where "Moody" tell his class he's had a letter from Professor Lupin about what they covered last year: "boggarts, Red Caps, hinkypunks, grindylows, Kappas and werewolves." Vampires are omitted, very significantly in my view. Were they an unplanned addition to Lupin's lesson plan?>>> When Snape took over the class, they were studying what I consider to be *lesser* creatures. I would imagine when the class got to werewolves and vampires they were finally getting to the *big* guys. After all, werewolves were at the very back of the book. Was the class moving at such a fast pace that they finally made it to vampires? They might have studied vampires to a lesser degree previously, however I would think it would take many lessons on how to deal with vampires. Plus I don't believe Lupin included any vampire stuff in that test he gave the class. It was *tit for tat*. Koinonia From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 21:44:11 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:44:11 -0000 Subject: LONG: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang In-Reply-To: <20001121234021.6853.qmail@web1303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fm87b+snd1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20313 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub? wrote: > > One could also look at this linguistically. While > Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm > und Drang, a literary movement advocating the > abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German > relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. > This suggests a closer connection to Russia and > Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a > later development. To me, it doesn't not seem > immediately logical that Slavic students would accept > learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance, > when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to > justify one or more schools on their own ? Thanks for leading me here! I like the above thought. I think JKR doesn't always give us a direct answer. It would probably give away something important. However, if she said it was by Norway I will take her word for it. It's just that it would be so much better for my own theories if Durmstrang was located by areas full of vampire folklore ^_~ Koinonia From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu Wed Jun 6 21:49:08 2001 From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:49:08 -0000 Subject: The Stag in Mythology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fm8gk+iq3n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20314 There is lots of information on the Web about the mythical meanings of stags/serpents. I found out the following: The stag and serpent are often found in association with a horned god in several different Indo-European mythologies, including Sumarian, Greek, Indic, and Celtic, all of which which *may* draw from a common Indo-European source. See: http://www.lugodoc.demon.co.uk/cernunos.htm http://www.whitestag.org/history/sumerian.html and http://realmagick.com/articles/93/1493.html I didn't get the impression that the stag and the serpent were necessarily enemies, however. You can use Google or another search engine to find much more information that's on the Web. Personally, I think that James' animagus and Harry's patronus take the form of a stag because the stag is a big impressive animal with lots of sharp horns that could really do a number on a snake or anything else that it didn't like :). Perhaps this [the symbolism of the stag] is something to ask JKR about. -Jim Flanagan From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 22:14:03 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:14:03 -0000 Subject: School-locations, mostly Durmstrang In-Reply-To: <9fm87b+snd1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fm9vb+v64f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20315 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub? wrote: > > > > > One could also look at this linguistically. While > > Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm > > und Drang, a literary movement advocating the > > abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German > > relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. > > This suggests a closer connection to Russia and > > Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a > > later development. To me, it doesn't not seem > > immediately logical that Slavic students would accept > > learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance, > > when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to > > justify one or more schools on their own ? > > Thanks for leading me here! I like the above thought. > > I think JKR doesn't always give us a direct answer. It would > probably give away something important. However, if she said it was > by Norway I will take her word for it. It's just that it would be so > much better for my own theories if Durmstrang was located by areas > full of vampire folklore ^_~ > > Koinonia There are some considerations that allow for all of the Nordic, Teutonic, and Slavic influences to be present in Durmstrang. The origins of the Great Russian peoples (not a value-judgment, that's what they are called) derives from a migrating Scaninavian tribe called the "Rus". Also, prior to Stalin's forced relocations of entire ethnic minorities before WWII, there were extensive settlements of Germanic peoples in European Russia that had existed for hundreds od years. Haggridd (whose favorite Quidditch team is Lithuania's Gorodok Gargoyles) From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 22:33:48 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:33:48 -0000 Subject: Vampire Info--rather long In-Reply-To: <9fkmcg+lsni@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fmb4c+a7sh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20316 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > > Krum's father spoke in Bulgarian. > > I've wondered about this too, and am not sure. I initially assumed > that it was somewhere in Eastern Europe, but when they have started > talking about mountains and glaciers, I thought that perhaps it > could be somewhere in Scandinavia. There are five primary locations for proper glaciers in Europe: (1) coastal Norway (2) Arctic circle islands: Svalbard [Norway], Zemlya Frantsa Iosifa (Franz-Josef-Land) and Novaya Zemlya [Russia], and the Kola Peninsula [Russia] (3) Pyrenees [Spain and France] (4) Alps [France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia] (5) Caucasus [primarily Russia] I always assumed a Swiss/Austrian location from the name "Durmstrang" which is a cute play on "Sturm und Drang" (literally, "storm and stress"), the German literary movement whose works describe the struggle of an emotional individual against his society. The term is used to refer to struggle, revolt, upheaval, and chaos. ....Craig From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 22:51:34 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:51:34 -0000 Subject: FAT In-Reply-To: <20010606125755.2942.qmail@web3704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fmc5m+u6df@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20317 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., golden faile wrote: > > I had the same thought. My son is rather chubby and I > didn't want him to feel bad about himself, however, I > think her representation of Dudley upset me more than him. As someone who's struggled with my weight since I was a child, I can understand your concern. When I read about Dudley, it didn't occur to me that kids might use his character to hurt fat children, because I didn't see Dudley as merely fat, but as a grotesque caricature of a *very* spoiled child. Being overweight from gluttony was only one of his many poorer traits that add up to an awful, but nevertheless, fictional brat. Though I'm an adult, I tend to think that even as an obese child, I would have identified more with Harry or Ron. For example, when I think of Quidditch, I still imagine myself as the seeker, though I have the body of a beater. That in my mind is part of the role of fantasy--allowing the reader to associate with characters that might be nothing like they themselves are in real-life, but who still spark their imagination. ....Craig, who always wanted to have red hair too.... :^) From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org Wed Jun 6 23:24:03 2001 From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 16:24:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20318 >Re "taking care of herself" - being overweight is dangerous - for Muggles; we >can end up with diabetes, heart disease, stroke. I think wizards >have a different constitiution, though - tougher - so it doesn't matter to >them. Correction... being out of shape and unhealthy is dangerous, not being 'overweight.' I was considerably 'overweight' in college according to charts, but I had great blood pressure, great cholesterol, etc, and was taking dance classes 5 days a week (plus some sporadically on the side) and running stairs and lifting weights, etc. I was 'overweight' but not unhealthy. Dudley is unhealthy, but the point is, you can be large and healthy. Also, often weight gain is a side affect of diabetes and is not proven to be linked to stroke (my dad died of a stroke, so I know a bit about it). Being out of shape (and smoking and stress...) is connected. Heart disease is increased by being unhealthy, and by fad dieting. Losing and gaining weight (or yo-yo dieting) is horrible on your heart. You're better off to exercise and be large than to yo-yo, or be thin and not exercise. I know this is terribly off topic now, but I started this talking about Dudley. You were right on track mentioning Dudley's popularity. Again, not a great role model to show that the mean kid is the popular kid, but I don't know what would be perfect. That's the key to anything. You can never nitpick too much because you'll never please everyone. Meredith From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Jun 6 23:30:25 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 23:30:25 -0000 Subject: Chesterton on Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <031c01c0ee06$3af4a560$b339acce@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9fmeeh+e384@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20319 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote: > I just came across a fascinating quote by G.K. Chesterton in the middle of > an essay on Charles Dickens, and was immediately reminded of Voldemort. > Given that JKR is a known GKC fan (she's even a member of the GKC society in > the UK, I'm told Thanks for letting us know that - as a long-time Chesterton fan, I didn't know we could number JKR in our company. Did the essay Which included this quote identify which GKC book it sprang from? > This approach to villainy may seem old-fashioned, but I think that there is > something to it Voldemort reflects - in Henry Fielding's phrase - "the perfection of the diabolic as opposed to the imperfections of humanity." I do not see Voldemort as a "camp" or quasi-comic "Evil Overlord" character, as some seem to regard him. Having just ended a century in which forces of political and social evil held an unprecedented sway (yes, even if the practitioners of it were an imperfect admixture of good and evil), we know that many millions of people have lived - or not lived - through regimes not unlike the one so well described by Sirius Black (GOF, Ch. 27) "You don't know who his supporters are, you don't know who's working for him and who isn't; you know he can control people so that they do terrible things without being able to stop themselves. You're scared for yourself, and your family, and your friends. Every week, news comes of more deaths, more disappearances, more torturing . . . the Ministry of Magic's in disarray, they don't know what to do, they're trying to keep everything hidden from the Muggles, but meanwhile, Muggles are dying too. Terror everywhere . . . panic . . . confusion . . . that's how it used to be." Compare Isaac Babel (quoted by Robert Conquest) during the Stalinist purges of the 1930s: "Today a man only talks freely with his wife - at night, with the blankets pulled over his head." Conquest goes on to add, "Only the very closest of friends could hint to each other of their disbelief of official views (and often not even then). The ordinary Russian had no means of discovering how far official lies were accepted....Every man became in a sense what Donne says he is not, "an island." (The Great Terror, Chap. 9) Voldemort exists as a touchstone of magical world's moral character. How does one react to the powers of evil and oppression? Some with enthusiastic allegience (Barty Crouch, Jr., Draco Malfoy), some with craven submission (Wormtail), some with denial (Cornelius Fudge). Some - ignoring Nietzsche's admonition that those who fight dragons must guard against becoming dragons themselves - descend to the same tactics employed by the forces of evil (Barty Crouch, Sr., perhaps to a lesser extent the real Mad-Eye Moody). But others will oppose it with a clear-minded resolution (Dumbledore), with stoic patience (Black, perhaps Hagrid), or with valor and heroism (Harry). - CMC From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Jun 6 23:50:56 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 23:50:56 -0000 Subject: Harry/Henry Potter and Harry/Henry V In-Reply-To: <9fh8ji+uio5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fmfl0+ndsj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20320 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rja.carnegie at e... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: >> > I am not sure that the parrallel works though. I just can't see our > > Harry as the irresponsible, fun loving Prince Hal which is portrayed > > in Henry IV Part 1. Harry, for me, has a great sense of > > responsibility. He also doesn't have the father/son issues of Prince > > Hal. I also don't see Harry having the kind of friends such as > > Falstaff, Bardolph et al. I agree - in so far as Harry resembles any Shakespeare character, I think it would be Hamlet. Both have had a dreadful destiny thrust upon them. Both tend to be brooding and introspective, with perhaps more than a touch of self-pity, yet both can be galvanized into violent action. Harry's celebrity status is a good contemporary parallel for Hamlet's royalty. There is something of the eternal student about Hamlet (despite his 30 years). They both skilled athletes (Quidditch vs. fencing). They both tend to be highly restricted in their friends, but are completely open and trusting with them (Hamlet with Horatio, Harry with Ron and Hermione). Their fathers have both been murdered, and their quest is to avenge that murder (with Hamlet, exclusively; with Harry, not entirely, but more than he may now think). Of course, the differences are as strong as the similarities: Harry's mother died heroically to save her son, while Gertrude is corrupted by her spouse's murderer; Hamlet lacks the guiding father figures which so often mentor Harry (Dumbledore, Black, Lupin, etc); Harry is untroubled by a complicated love-life (so far, at least); in spite of Rita Skeeter claims, Harry has no need to feign madness; Hamlet is more openly intellectual and philosphical than Harry, and much more sarcastic to boot; etc. - CMC From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 00:11:04 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <991863190.1751.21962.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010607001104.32601.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20321 Lumen wrote: >> 4) Being a half-blood doesn't exclude you from Slytherin; Tom >>Riddle was half-Muggle, almost the worse thing possible, and yet not >>only is he in Slytherin, but he is the heir of Salazar >> Joywitch wrote: >>How do we know that Tom Riddle was in Slytherin? Is it ever >>explicitly stated? Granted, it is a logical assumption, but.... Anne wrote: >In PS/SS, chpater 6 Hagrid says he was. I don't know if people think >this a reliable quote or not, since it immediately follows the bit >about all dark wizards having been in Slytherin. "'There's not a >single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know- >Who was one.'" In Hagrid's defense, he should know; he was at school >at the same time as Riddle. I went looking about that(borrowed SS from library) and here is what I found: }Chapter 6 pages 106-107 }"Gryffindor," said Ron. Gloom seemed to be settling }on him again. "Mom and Dad were in it, too. I don't }know what they'll say if I'm not. I don't suppose }Ravenclaw would be too bad, but imagine if they put }me in Slytherin." }"That's the house Vol-, I mean You-Know-Who was in?" }"Yeah," said Ron. He flopped back into his seat, }looking depressed. That's the only thing I could find (still haven't been able to find my copies so I can check the other books sorry). But it seems to me that it's a pretty sure sign that Tom Riddle(AKA Voldemort) was Slytherin. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jun 7 00:35:12 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 00:35:12 -0000 Subject: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? Message-ID: <9fmi80+2853@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20322 I'm not describing anything within this message, but it may still be spoilerish. To avoid rocks, hairnets and the ire of a new mother, I recommend that any replies with descriptions should be labeled as a "SPOILER" Someone directed me to this web site (http://www.landofharrypotter.homestead.com/BookCovers.html). Scroll to the bottom and it has the UK OoP book cover. Not sure if this is a 'red herring' or not. But it looks legit on the surface. Milz From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 7 00:41:25 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 00:41:25 -0000 Subject: Vampire Info--rather long In-Reply-To: <9fkbtm+mnrg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fmijl+r0bv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20323 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: > > From 1730-35 Hungary, the Balkans, Poland, Bulgaria (!) and > > Bohemia (now the Czech Republic) had a Vampire Epidemic> > > The word "vampire" comes from the Slavic word obyri or obiri, which > > evolved into the Bulgarian(!) word "vampir". > > > Where is Durmstrang? Could it be somewhere around Romania, Poland, > Bulgaria? Seems to be very close to areas that are filled with > vampire folklore. > > Don't forget the proxomity of Albania, Voldemort's exile-retreat during the 1980s. Voldy/Quirrel is (are) only character(s) we've actually seen drinking blodd so far (the unicorn in SS/PS) - CMC From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Thu Jun 7 00:48:00 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:48:00 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? Message-ID: <3c.cbe243a.28502940@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20324 In a message dated 6/6/01 8:36:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, absinthe at mad.scientist.com writes: << I'm not describing anything within this message, but it may still be spoilerish. To avoid rocks, hairnets and the ire of a new mother, I recommend that any replies with descriptions should be labeled as a "SPOILER" Someone directed me to this web site (http://www.landofharrypotter.homestead.com/BookCovers.html). Scroll to the bottom and it has the UK OoP book cover. Not sure if this is a 'red herring' or not. But it looks legit on the surface. >> I wanted to blow it up & see it more closely, so I right-clicked on the picture, as a precursor to saving it, and the "title" for the picture that showed up in my saving box title space was "fake_phoenix" - I think that's a hint that it's not a phoenix at all, but a herring. Of course, if I didn't think it looked so close to the "real thing" I wouldn't've bothered, so don't feel bad about thinking it *might* be real. From JamiDeise at aol.com Thu Jun 7 00:49:49 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:49:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as vampire Message-ID: <9c.f126823.285029ad@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20325 In a message dated 6/6/2001 3:40:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, reanna20 at yahoo.com writes: << Perhaps I'm being completely obtuse, but why would Snape be malicious about Lupin's werewolf heritage if Snape himself is a vampire? >> because a werewolf is a mere beast and a vampire is the epitome of undead cool? Jami From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 7 00:56:21 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 00:56:21 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter Bug-Brain (was: Rita Skeeter Bug) In-Reply-To: <9fih5q+bq1r@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fmjfl+70pc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20326 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" On the subject of Ms. Skeeter - how did she do all of that insider reporting with the brain of a bug? JKR is pretty inconsistent about this, but it is often implied that an Animagi lose at least some of their human-level intellectual capabilities. Sirius Black fools the Dementors by changing into a dog: "They could tell that my feelings were less -- less human, less complex when I was a dog... but they thought, of course, that I was losing my mind like everyone else in there, so it didn't trouble them." Mr. Kennilworthy Whisp at the beginning of QTA tells us that, "[The Animagi] who finds.. [themselves] transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, having a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go the moment they take flight." OTOH, McGonagall seems fully aware in her feline guise, and Pettigrew's squeaks and attempts to escape while in his Scabbers identity certainly indicate he knows exactly what the score is. Perhaps this has to do with the relatively larger mammalian brain. But if a bat-Animagi can't even be expected to remember to go from Point A to Point B, how much more limited is the near-microscopic insect brain going to be in action? - CMC From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Thu Jun 7 00:59:03 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 00:59:03 -0000 Subject: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? In-Reply-To: <3c.cbe243a.28502940@aol.com> Message-ID: <9fmjkn+2n86@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20327 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote: > I wanted to blow it up & see it more closely, so I right-clicked on the > picture, as a precursor to saving it, and the "title" for the picture that > showed up in my saving box title space was "fake_phoenix" - I think that's a > hint that it's not a phoenix at all, but a herring. Of course, if I didn't > think it looked so close to the "real thing" I wouldn't've bothered, so don't > feel bad about thinking it *might* be real. Tsk. The lengths to which some people will go. I was about to e-mail the owner of the site to inquire about the source for this book cover. OTOH, it's rather stupid to label the jpg as 'fake phoenix' if you want to indulge in a hoax. Milz From simon at hp.inbox.as Thu Jun 7 00:59:41 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 01:59:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? In-Reply-To: <9fmi80+2853@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20328 Milz: <<>> <<>> It is the same picture as is on the following page: http://www.hpgalleries.com/covercontest4.htm. This is a competition on the HP Galleries to design a cover for the new books. So I would guess from that that we can conclude it to be a fake. Also the UK books follow a similar colour pattern. In the picture (easier to see on the larger version at the HP Galleries) we can also see the spine to the book. The UK book spines are split into 4 sections. The top is a little picture, the second is a coloured background with Harry Potter on it, the third a different colour with the book title and author on it and the bottom being a third colour with Bloomsbury on it. The important one out of these is the second one. The background colour to this section is then the same as the colour of the top part of the front of the book. This is not the case in the cover linked too above. Looking at the spine it seems to be the spine of a copy of PoA (purple, red and black). For information CoS is blue, green and red. PS is red, blue and yellow. GoF is orange, dark blue and turquoise. So from that I reckon it is a fake. Another reason to suspect it to be a fake is that it says 'Double Smarties Award Winning Author' at the bottom. This is exactly what is written on the bottom of the PoA hardback. The updated PS hardback (http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747532699.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg), however, proclaims that Jo Rowling to have won three of these awards. If this were the new book then you would expect the publishers to be able to get this detail right. On GoF they did not put this on and I would not be surprised if it were also left of future books. I see that Heidi has also posted another reason to suspect it to be a fake. So my conclusion would be that it is not going to be the cover for OotP. Simon -- "Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain." Arthur Weasley - Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets by Jo Rowling ---------------------------------------------------------------------------HHH H From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 7 01:03:11 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 01:03:11 -0000 Subject: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? In-Reply-To: <9fmjkn+2n86@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fmjsf+5c23@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20329 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > > Tsk. The lengths to which some people will go. I was about to e- mail > the owner of the site to inquire about the source for this book cover. > OTOH, it's rather stupid to label the jpg as 'fake phoenix' if you > want to indulge in a hoax. > Maybe they were trying to label the picture "Fawkes phoenix," but they weren't very good at spelling. - CMC From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 01:39:36 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 01:39:36 -0000 Subject: Vampire Info/Voldemort In-Reply-To: <9fmijl+r0bv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fmm0o+gp3u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20330 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > Don't forget the proxomity of Albania, Voldemort's exile-retreat > during the 1980s. Voldy/Quirrel is (are) only character(s) we've > actually seen drinking blodd so far (the unicorn in SS/PS) That's right! As for the blood drinking scene, well....it wasn't one of my favorites. I saw on another board a post about an interview with screenwriter Steve Kloves. The interview was by Glenn Lovell, a writer with the Mercury News: Kloves describes Lord Voldemort as "Dracula-like - human, but not human." Wonder why they made him look like that ;) Koinonia From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Jun 7 02:54:24 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 02:54:24 -0000 Subject: FAT In-Reply-To: <20010606141710.13610.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fmqd0+d9cr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20331 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > > --- Melanie Brackney wrote: > > > > I'm just going to put my 2 cents in here on this. I > > am going back to something my educational psych > > teacher said, when you like a person there > > appearance does not mean as much to you. For > > example, we love Mrs. Weasley the fact that she is a > > plump women is often forgotten or just not really an > > issue. Dudley obesity only is an issue because we > > do not like his character. If we loved Dudley then > > it wouldn't matter what he weighed. It just is > > realistic..on the part of JKR to place so much > > emphasis on appearance with Dudley. > > > > Melanie > > > Perhaps the implication is that Molly is not vain and > does not spend her life trying to be thin and > fashionable. OTOH, Dudley's weight is illustrative of > his personality--his piggishness and selfishness. > Molly is so focussed on other people, she seems to > have forgotten about taking care of herself, whereas > his piggy self is ALL Dudley cares about. Ironically, > their physiques suffer the same consequences. > > Oh, goodness, here comes another rant. Molly is portrayed as a plump comfortable woman. Medical science has calmed down. Being plump is not a health hazard, nor does it imply that one does not take care of one's self. It suggests that some people (like Arthur) are not interested in anorexic wannabees, and that plump is just fine. In fact, good for cuddling, cushioning, and comforting children. OTOH Dudley is portrayed as so obese that he cannot fit into the school uniforms, and the school nurse feels his weight his a health hazard. Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Jun 7 03:00:09 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 03:00:09 -0000 Subject: FAT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fmqnp+ejcr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20332 > An incontinent appetite isn't an attractive character trait, although it's a hard one to get rid of - I know, mine's only stalemated. It gets harder > with age - which doesn't apply to Dudley, of course. And incontinence, or poor education of the palate in children, _is_ (together with > inadequate exercise) the primary cause of overweight Uh, there is some role of genetics here..and we would have to define "overweight". I know women who are 140 pounds (5 foot 8 inches) who consider themselves grossly overweight. In fact, our culture basically sends the message that unless you're a size 6 (woman) you're overweight..despite the fact that the average woman is size 14 Susan From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 02:58:29 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (captain_debrowe at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 02:58:29 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <20010607001104.32601.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fmqkl+902h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20333 > Anne wrote: > > >In PS/SS, chpater 6 Hagrid says he was. I don't know > if people think > >this a reliable quote or not, since it immediately > follows the bit > >about all dark wizards having been in Slytherin. > "'There's not a > >single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in > Slytherin. You-Know- > >Who was one.'" In Hagrid's defense, he should know; > he was at school > >at the same time as Riddle. Was flipping throught the book and I found the scene Anne is talking about. }HP and SS Chapter 5 page 80 }"And what are Slytherin and Hufflepuff?" ===Harry==== }"School houses. There's four. Everyone syas Hufflepuff are a lot }o'duffers, but---" =====Hagrid==== }"I bet I'm in Hufflepuff," said Harry gloomily. }"Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin," said Hagrid darkly. "There's not }a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You- }Know-Who was one." }"Vol-, sorry -- You-Know-Who was at Hogwarts?" So we actually have two points in the book (please see my previous post under this subject) where two separate people confirm that Tom Riddle (Lord Voldemort) was a Slytherin. Danette From saitaina at wizzards.net Thu Jun 7 03:40:13 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:40:13 -0700 Subject: Dudley-Bulley or popular kid? References: Message-ID: <000001c0ef04$3ed618e0$fd4e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20334 Where is it mentioned Dudly as 'popular'? He was a bully and that is the long and short of it. People did not befriend Harry because they "knew Dudley" and did want the living daylights beat out of them is the basic gist of what was said in that section. No where was he named as popular but extensively named as a bully who several in his school feared. "Exactly why Dudley wanted a racing bike was a mystery to Harry, as Dudly was very fat and hated exercise-unless of course it involved punching somebody." "He was usually the one who held people's arms behind their backs while Dudley hit them"-regarding Dudley's best friend, Piers Pollykiss. "Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd Harry Potter in his baggy old clothes and broken glasses and nobody liked to disagree with Dudley's gang." Each of these quotes point to the dangerous behavior of a bullying child. That in itself is really a bigger issue then his weight. That bullying will stay with him in life and later endanger his own children. Draco Malfoy is not the only one indager having having the SCF (Services to Children and Families) or the British equvilent called on him to remove a child from his care in this series and it's very sad, and disturbing to see people refer to such behavior as popularity. Saitaina From saitaina at wizzards.net Thu Jun 7 03:50:37 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:50:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? References: <9fmjsf+5c23@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <001c01c0ef05$04825860$fd4e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20335 This cover is indeed a fake as I have seen it in many contests, but, in the same vein it is a lovely cover and I hope the US cover has something like it (not teh exact picture but comething better then the current covers we have had over here). Oh well, always fun to see fans works in the long boring time till the publishers decide to give a release date (and a correct one other then the hassle with GoF). From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Jun 7 04:28:47 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:28:47 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? In-Reply-To: <001c01c0ef05$04825860$fd4e28d1@oemcomputer> References: <9fmjsf+5c23@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606212701.03bfe330@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20336 The fake cover seems to suggest a desire for the Fab Three to acquire an (illegal?) flying carpet.... Might there be something in this? It *does* come up in GoF... -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Jun 7 04:33:03 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:33:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley-Bulley or popular kid? In-Reply-To: <000001c0ef04$3ed618e0$fd4e28d1@oemcomputer> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606213139.03bfc350@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20337 At 08:40 PM 6/6/01 -0700, Saitaina wrote: >"He was usually the one who held people's arms behind their backs while >Dudley hit them"-regarding Dudley's best friend, Piers Pollykiss. > >"Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd Harry Potter in his baggy >old clothes and broken glasses and nobody liked to disagree with Dudley's >gang." Does anyone besides me hold out hope that Dudley and Piers will get Avada Kedavra-ed (ironically by Draco)? -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Jun 7 04:35:45 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:35:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <9c.f126823.285029ad@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606213456.00b4a9d0@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20338 At 08:49 PM 6/6/01 -0400, JamiDeise at aol.com wrote: >because a werewolf is a mere beast and a vampire is the epitome of undead >cool? They *do* sell blood-flavored lollies for vampires in Hogsmeade... -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Jun 7 04:46:09 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:46:09 -0700 Subject: PS/SS quotes Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606213813.03bfe140@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20339 Someone has asked for a couple of quotes, which as it turns out occur very close to each other in PS/SS: *** Hermione's remark about bravery over books and cleverness: "Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know." "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things -- friendship and bravery and -- oh Harry -- be careful!" *** And the other Snape = Bat simile we've had (so far): "But I thought -- Snape --" "Severus?" Quirrell laughed, and it wasn't his usual quivering treble, either, but cold and sharp. "Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he? So useful to have him swooping around like an overgrown bat. Next to him, who would suspect p-p-poor, st-stuttering P-Professor Quirrell?" (Hmmm... Maybe he *is* a vampire... Could explain why Quirrell fears him, which I think he does -- I don't think Q was faking that part, at least not entirely...) -- Dave From buster at dnahelix.com Thu Jun 7 04:53:16 2001 From: buster at dnahelix.com (buster at dnahelix.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 04:53:16 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter Bug-Brain (was: Rita Skeeter Bug) In-Reply-To: <9fmjfl+70pc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fn1bs+1003k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20340 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" > > On the subject of Ms. Skeeter - how did she do all of that insider > reporting with the brain of a bug? JKR is pretty inconsistent about > this, but it is often implied that an Animagi lose at least some of > their human-level intellectual capabilities. Sirius Black fools the > Dementors by changing into a dog: "They could tell that my feelings > were less -- less human, less complex when I was a dog... but they > thought, of course, that I was losing my mind like everyone else in > there, so it didn't trouble them." Mr. Kennilworthy Whisp at the > beginning of QTA tells us that, "[The Animagi] who finds.. > [themselves] transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, having > a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go the > moment they take flight." > > OTOH, McGonagall seems fully aware in her feline guise, and > Pettigrew's squeaks and attempts to escape while in his Scabbers > identity certainly indicate he knows exactly what the score is. > Perhaps this has to do with the relatively larger mammalian brain. > But if a bat-Animagi can't even be expected to remember to go from > Point A to Point B, how much more limited is the near-microscopic > insect brain going to be in action? > > - CMC Here's a theory: Perhaps the 'intelligence level' of an Animagi in animal form could be relative to their skill of the transformation, so the better one is at the process the more one's intellect is retained. ITC, McGonagall and Skeeter might be better at the process than perhaps Sirius is. This could be one of the reasons why it is such a difficult skill to develop and would also make it more dangerous. If an untrained wizard attempted to turn into an animal and then only possessed the intellect of that creature (like a bug) then how would he or she know how to change back??? -Beau "Never trust anything that can think for itself,if you can't see where it keeps its brain." From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com Thu Jun 7 05:27:05 2001 From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 05:27:05 -0000 Subject: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <9fm7ij+luar@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fn3b9+pthn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20341 Yes, well, I'm a little late to the party, but here's my two cents anyway. Koinonia wrote: >> When Snape took over the class, they were studying what I consider to be *lesser* creatures. I would imagine when the class got to werewolves and vampires they were finally getting to the *big* guys. After all, werewolves were at the very back of the book. Was the class moving at such a fast pace that they finally made it to vampires? They might have studied vampires to a lesser degree previously, however I would think it would take many lessons on how to deal with vampires. Plus I don't believe Lupin included any vampire stuff in that test he gave the class. It was *tit for tat*.<< About that Vampire essay... alright, I'm pretty sure the general theory that you Vampire-Snapefans have is that when Lupin rescues Harry from Snape's evil clutches after the Hogsmeade incident Lupin said his little line about the "Vampire essay" simply to get back at Snape for the little werewolf essay stunt. That they weren't necessarily studying it in class (at least, not in much depth) and it was just a kind of reserved warning or something of Lupin's. However... forget not that it couldn't have been just a simple warning of Lupin's, as Neville makes it obviously clear that the assigned essay was real. Page 276, PoA, American version: "Er-- not now-- I was going to the library and do that vampire essay for Lupin--" "I'll come with you!" Neville said brightly. "I haven't done it either!" So, the essay *was* really assigned. Which brings me to my next conclusion: If Hermione, who puts an insane amount effort into her homework, can figure out the truth about Lupin's lycanthropy from doing Snape's essay, then wouldn't she also be able to understand the truth about Snape's "Vampirism" from Lupin's essay? Now, I know you guys will contadict me with the usual excuses ("It's a potion he uses to conceal his symptoms!" and so on...) BUT, Lupin has a potion too, and it does not conceal all of his symptoms. I have my doubts that there is a cure-all potion for the symptoms of Vampirism (that greasy hair is not a side-effect, sorry) and therefore, it would seem to me that Hermione would be able to discover that Snape is not what he seems. Now, of course, Hermione could be protecting Snape's secret, like she did with Lupin, but even this I have my doubts upon. I think that Hermione, although she has that great reverence for teachers, would tell Harry and Ron the truth about Snape. Perhaps not right away, but I would think she definitely would in GoF when they are musing over what Snape did with his "first chance"... Snape is already quite the complex character. He has a bitter current life, he doesn't appear to venture out anywhere, he was once a spy and he may have resumed his double life, he has a dark past of alliance with Voldemort, he's got a longstanding hatred of Harry's father... why does JKR need to add vampirism to the pot? I mean, really, how much can the poor guy deal with? I think he's got enough characterization to build on as is. Lyda From Allyse at my-deja.com Thu Jun 7 06:28:34 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 06:28:34 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Quidditch prank, was Re: Chapter 13 Summary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fn6ui+b45m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20342 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Robert Carnegie wrote: > >Malfoy and > >company specifically intended that Harry at the least > >be distracted and lose the game, and at the most be > >seriously injured. > > But _seeing_ Dementors isn't what affects Harry so badly - it's their, um, dementing-power. While that is certainly true, Malfoy has a very poor opinion of Harry. I would imagine that he sneeringly thinks that the mere sight of the Dementors would be enough to make Harry go to pieces. Remember, Harry has good reason to be affected more than others, but Malfoy doesn't know that (nor care). As far as he's concerned, Potter is a weakling. So while his ploy was doomed to failure, his intentions were certainly repulsive. Allyse From gaynor at cheerful.com Thu Jun 7 08:32:41 2001 From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:32:41 -0000 Subject: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? In-Reply-To: <001c01c0ef05$04825860$fd4e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <9fne79+eju4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20343 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" wrote: > This cover is indeed a fake as I have seen it in many contests It is part of the Harry Potter Galleries Book 5 cover contest at: http://www.hpgalleries.com/covercontest4.htm There's quite a few entries from different age-groups. Some are pretty cool! Gaynor From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 7 08:52:43 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 04:52:43 -0400 Subject: Grim, Kiss, Muggles/Wizards, Quidditch, Cho, Florence, Vampires, Ducks, Seekers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20344 Warning: most of this post was written at 3 a.m. and is therefore prone to sarcasm, silliness and sheer illogic. >2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he >just imagining things? Neither. I think he really does see Crookshanks. I'm really surprised by how many listies think otherwise. Am I being naive? You who think it's the Grim, why do you? CMC wrote: >So how does having one's soul sucked out by a >Dementor affect one's afterlife spiritual status? My guess is that >the Kiss has a most unfavorable effect on same. I'll stick with >Death. It all comes down to what happens to your soul when you die. If it departs from your body but lives on in some way, that's very different from what happens to a Kissed person, whose soul is actually devoured. Shudder. If death causes the soul to disperse (i.e. if the soul can't exist separate from the body) then the net effect is the same either way. But I would still rather die than be Kissed, even if the death is the death of my soul as well. It's hard to think of a death worse than having one's soul forcibly sucked out while one relives one's worst moments of life. Robert wrote: >Species diverge, but the point at which two branches of a species become >two separate species is, I >propose, an arbitrarily drawn line. I don't want to offend anyone, >but I hear that it's a fact that most individual conjunctions between >sets of human genes aren't successful. Some taxonomic divisions are quite arbitrary, but the distinguishing line between species is relevant to this discussion: creatures within the same species can conceive fertile offspring, whereas creatures from different species cannot. (A horse and a donkey, two species, can conceive a mule, but the mule is sterile.) Or is this the distinction you're questioning? I don't understand your second sentence. Anyway, this is relevant because wizards and humans do have fertile offspring. Well, we assume they're fertile, since intermarriage has been going on a long time. It will certainly break a lot of fanfic hearts if Harry can't have kids. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: >I think that wizards and witches are able to use more of their brains (or >parts of their brains that >muggles can't use). I remember Amanda Lewinski (and others, too) >talking about how magic comes from the self, and stronger selves (or >focus) can result in magic without a wand. JKR has talked about magical ability as being like any other extraordinary ability--like being a great pianist or pitcher or painter. In that sense, wizards and witches do use "a part of their brain" that Muggles don't, but they don't necessarily have more capabilities overall. They have a talent that most people don't; so does Itzhak Perlman. Does that fit with what you're saying? David wrote: >Apart, maybe, from the first (I'm a little hazy) I'm pretty sure there is >*not one* Quidditch match which does not serve some plot purpose (I exclude >those where Harry is not there). I'm pretty sure you're right, with "The Quidditch Final" in PoA being the one account that doesn't convey any plot points except Gryffindor Wins the Cup. That one gives the most detailed account of the game itself and was the most boring for me (even though I do like sports and don't mind well-written descriptions of games, especially livened by Lee). I found it so thrilling and satisfying for Gryffindor to win at last that I would have felt cheated if JKR had put it "off-camera" ("On Saturday, Gryffindor beat Slytherin by just enough points to win the Quidditch Cup. Harry was very, very happy. On Sunday, he spent the entire day on his Divination homework"--please!). I haven't been so happy since the Mets won the Series. ::begs fellow New Englanders not to revoke her Red Sox fan privileges--I've repented, I swear!:: The very first game does serve a plot purpose; it's the one where Quirrell jinxes the broom. Jami wrote: >Cho saw the faux dementors before Harry. She screamed and pointed down. Was >that really a spontaneous reaction of >fear? Or did she deliberately point down, hoping Harry would fall again and >give her a clear shot at the Snitch? Interesting question. I am inclined to think of Cho as a consistently nice person, based on GF, but we don't know much about her. Maybe she's a conniving creep. Maybe she paid Malfoy et al to appear as Dementors. The plot thickens! Re: the elusive Florence as a professor: maybe she already is. We don't know the first name of Professors Possibly Female Sinistra, Vector, or--appropriately for a girl who hung out around the greenhouses--Sprout. (Florence Sprout, very botanical indeed.) Koinonia wrote: >Why can't JKR make up her own type of vampires? I think that is >the stumbling block for many people. If Snape does turn out to be a vampire, one reason Harry would be slow on the uptake is that he has the same Hollywood-induced misconceptions about vampires as we Muggles do, e.g. that they can't go out in the daylight. You'd think Hermione would have caught on by now, though. Or Ron, who would know about JKR-style vampires and who is inclined to believe anything bad about Snape. How about this: in JKR's universe, vampires can't lie. That's why Dumbledore knows he can trust Snape, and why the reason why is a matter between Prof. Snape and himself . . . This is fun! We can make up anything at all! Koinonia also wrote: >Let's talk about Krum. There has to be more to Krum than we know. I >have stated that before, as have others. In GoF it says; Harry had >never seen anyone fly like that; Krum hardly looked as though he was >using a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air that >he looked unsupported and weightless. >Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to >mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal people >can't swim in water like that. Red flag: Krum is actually a duck. Terrific flyer, swims in water too cold for humans, and (the capper) is duck-footed. Catherine wrote: >One thing strikes me however - isn't it strange that 3 out of 4 champions >are >seekers? I noticed this too. And at the Yule Ball, of the eight people who are champions or dates thereof, six are Quidditch players. Amy Z -------------------------------------------- The clock on Lupin's wall . . . had twelve divisions, ranging from Sound Asleep to Murderous Intent And No Human Conscience. -Amanita Lestrange, "Fool's Paradise" -------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 09:20:10 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 02:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT In-Reply-To: <9fmqd0+d9cr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010607092010.33818.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20345 Dudley's weight and Harry's skinniness are metaphors for the way they are treated by the Dursley's: Dudley is stuffed full of good things like his favourite foods and toys and gadgets while Harry gets by with the bare essentials to sustain life and lives under the stairs. It's not a weight issue per se but rather an abundance one. Kids reading the book get the symbolism right away. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 7 09:30:44 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 05:30:44 -0400 Subject: FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20346 I don't think JKR portrays overweight people unkindly overall. There are a couple of characters who are described as fat in whom it is not in any way tied to their character: Bagman (GF 7), Neville (PS/SS 9). I don't have any problem with these descriptions, and they create an overall sense that some characters are thin, some are fat, and nothing is to be imputed to characters based on this aspect of their looks. However. I really, really dislike JKR's obsession with Dudley's weight. It is not that he's a jerk; Draco's thin and he's a worse jerk--JKR is an equal-opportunity insulter. It has to do with the way she mentions his weight so often, like a little child who can't talk about an overweight classmate without mentioning his weight in every other sentence. (Grownups do this too, heaven knows. People who do not feel the need to describe an acquaintance as "short" or "redheaded" every time they mention her seem unable to stop saying "overweight" or "big" or "heavy." Is it just the US, or are people everywhere unable to see past fat?) A case in point: CoS chapter one. "'I know what day it is,' sang Dudley, waddling towards him." A few lines later: "Dudley hitched up his trousers, which were slipping down his fat bottom." A few lines after that: "Dudley stumbled backwards at once, a look of panic on his fat face." Why his =fat= bottom? Why his =fat= face? We don't hear about Ron's freckled face or Hermione's bucktoothed smile on a regular basis. This was my very first experience of HP, and it's a wonder I got through it. I was thinking, geez, I really like this book, but what is this woman's problem? I could give more examples from the other books, but this is the worst scene. One more However: As Saitaina wrote, we are seeing Dudley through Harry's eyes. I can cut JKR some slack because I can imagine that Harry, who, being noble and Practically Perfect, wouldn't judge someone based on his weight, is nevertheless so filled with justified loathing for Dudley that he thinks about him in insults. I can almost convince myself that we're getting Harry's viewpoint here, not JKR's. Almost. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------------- "Do you mean ter tell me," he growled at the Dursleys, "that this boy--this boy!--knows nothin' abou'--about ANYTHING?" Harry thought this was going a bit far. -HP and the Philosopher's Stone --------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From atypke at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 09:43:50 2001 From: atypke at yahoo.com (atypke at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:43:50 -0000 Subject: Vampire Info--rather long In-Reply-To: <9fkbtm+mnrg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fnicm+gg55@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20347 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: > > From 1730-35 Hungary, the Balkans, Poland, Bulgaria (!) and > > Bohemia (now the Czech Republic) had a Vampire Epidemic> > > The word "vampire" comes from the Slavic word obyri or obiri, which > > evolved into the Bulgarian(!) word "vampir". > > > Where is Durmstrang? Could it be somewhere around Romania, Poland, > Bulgaria? Seems to be very close to areas that are filled with > vampire folklore. > > Krum's father spoke in Bulgarian. > Durmstrang is described as being in a cold climate. Both Bulgaria and Romania have rather mild-to-mediterranean climates. Wine is produced in both countries, for example. I'm not really sure Poland would be cold enough either - how about Russia, Ukraine, or the Slavic Baltics? Agatha, who finally quit lurking. From atypke at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 09:50:27 2001 From: atypke at yahoo.com (atypke at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:50:27 -0000 Subject: Vampire Info--rather long In-Reply-To: <9fkbtm+mnrg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fnip3+2jvi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20348 > > Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to > mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal people > can't swim in water like that. > Swimming in ice cold water is a custom in Russia and the Ukraine (don't know about Belorus). I think they particularly do this around Easter. I lived in Poland for a few years on a study abroad thing, and every year the news would show "what those crazy russians" were doing. If Durmstrang is in fact in the cold north eastern slavic countries, then Krum's behaviour wouldn't be all that strange. Agatha From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 7 10:06:37 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:06:37 -0000 Subject: Snape and Hermione (was vampires) In-Reply-To: <9fn3b9+pthn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fnjnd+atj2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20349 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" wrote: > So, the essay *was* really assigned. Which brings me to my next > conclusion: If Hermione, who puts an insane amount effort into her > homework, can figure out the truth about Lupin's lycanthropy from > doing Snape's essay, then wouldn't she also be able to understand the > truth about Snape's "Vampirism" from Lupin's essay? > Now, of course, Hermione could be protecting Snape's secret, like she > did with Lupin, but even this I have my doubts upon. I think that > Hermione, although she has that great reverence for teachers, would > tell Harry and Ron the truth about Snape. Perhaps not right away, but > I would think she definitely would in GoF when they are musing over > what Snape did with his "first chance"... > > Snape is already quite the complex character. He has a bitter current > life, he doesn't appear to venture out anywhere, he was once a spy > and he may have resumed his double life, he has a dark past of > alliance with Voldemort, he's got a longstanding hatred of Harry's > father... why does JKR need to add vampirism to the pot? I mean, > really, how much can the poor guy deal with? I think he's got enough > characterization to build on as is. > > Lyda While agree with your general comments about characterisation, I think Hermione might keep Snape's secret secret - because of the prejudice issue. I'm guessing that vampires are generally hated and feared by wizards - the note in FB about the centaurs is a clue. Hermione might then adopt a similar attitude to the one she has about giants and cut Snape a lot of slack (as well as realising after GOF that a word in the wrong place might blow a hole in Dumbledore's strategy). If Snape is a vampire, then this puts his ignoring of Hermione's sudden tooth growth in a different light: to comment on the length of her teeth would be a racist remark (or possibly his anti-fang, sunlight protection potion has some odd side effects on his vision). Finally, his task at the end of GOF would be to get the vampires on side with Dumbledore. This could be scary if joining the wizards is seen as a betrayal by the 'vampiring community' at large. David, now seiously worried that Snape might trip and fall on the point of his wand From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 10:42:33 2001 From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:42:33 +0200 Subject: Draco - Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius In-Reply-To: <991888349.2131.15378.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010607115937.00a14bb0@rudjer.irb.hr> No: HPFGUIDX 20350 Saitaina wrote: >Each of these quotes point to the dangerous behavior of a bullying child. >That in itself is really a bigger issue then his weight. That bullying will >stay with him in life and later endanger his own children. Draco Malfoy is >not the only one indager having having the SCF (Services to Children and >Families) or the British equvilent called on him to remove a child from his >care in this series and it's very sad, and disturbing to see people refer to >such behavior as popularity. While I'm not a Draco apologist, I really do not understand this. Draco exhibits his bullying behavior towards the people he considers inferior to him. While his mental processes are definitely warped (at this time- I like the redemption scenario), this doesn't mean he cannot be genuinely devoted to his family. Actually, that's my take on Lucius, too. (Well, not completely. No redemption for him.) Koinonia quotes from: >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub? wrote: > > > > > One could also look at this linguistically. While > > Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm > > und Drang, a literary movement advocating the > > abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German > > relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. > > This suggests a closer connection to Russia and > > Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a > > later development. To me, it doesn't not seem > > immediately logical that Slavic students would accept > > learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance, > > when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to > > justify one or more schools on their own ? I wouldn't be so sure. The Habsburghs have a lot to answer for. Vienna was the center for much of Central and Eastern Europe, and for a long time. Consequently, German was the primary foreign language learned in those regions (Now it's English) I have a question regarding the friendship between Karkaroff and Lucius. It is not clear to me when it started exactly. If it was during their Death Eating days, than why Igor didn't rat on him, as well. Igor did seem pretty desperate to deliver as many names as possible. Another possibility is that they met elsewhere (possibly at Hogwarts, Igor does say something like "good to be back" when he arrives there in GoF) and that Igor knew nothing about Lucius' involvement. Also, I think that Lucius wouldn't want to associate too much with someone who is on Voldemort's hit list and a security risk (Not quite slippery enough). Does anyone have any ideas? Vlatka _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 7 10:40:43 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:40:43 -0000 Subject: correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fnlnb+nfmu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20351 I wrote: > Anyway, this is relevant because wizards and humans do have fertile > offspring. I meant "wizards and Muggles." My slip rather undermined my point. ;-) Amy Z From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 7 11:31:16 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 11:31:16 -0000 Subject: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic Message-ID: <9fnom4+auhs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20352 Spells & Charms; the nature of magic Here it is at long last. Thanks for your patience, everybody. Not one person sent me a Howler. This piece is not about the class Charms, since that's an upcoming topic, and I've left aside the vexing question of the difference between Charms and Transfiguration (e.g. why are winged keys a Charm and giant moving chesspieces are a Transfiguration?) because it seems to fit in better there. Rather, I'm looking at Charms in the general sense, as a synonym for spells, that is, magic in general. I also haven't posed any questions; all of the below is my opinion and meant to stimulate discussion, counter-examples, and alternative theories. What I really wanted to write was a lyrical ode to magic such as Snape likes to deliver to his first-years. I also wanted to compare JKR's vision of magic to other authors'. However, I haven't the lyrical talent of a Severus Snape nor the Comparative Magical Theories background of many other list members. I urge those who have observed interesting differences between the rules and nature of magic in the Potterverse and others to take this discussion in that direction, by all means. One point I do notice is that unlike in some books, magic in HP is not a matter of wishes or anything so simple; perhaps the characters in books that feature this kind of magic have gotten a hold of a wizard-Charmed object so that for them, all they have to do is make a wish and magical things begin to occur. In JKR's universe, and this is in fact the very basis for the books, which are structured around an educational system, magic is a talent but also a discipline--a technology that one can master only with a great deal of study and hard work. There are other magical universes in which a school for witchcraft and wizardry would be an odd concept. JKR doesn't spend much time giving us Magical Theory (maybe Adalbert Waffling's book will be the next Schoolbook to be released if we ask very nicely); we have to draw our own conclusions from the spells we see. Magic has its own laws. It doesn't have to fit physics or any other system we know, but it has to be internally consistent. We can believe in an Invisibility Cloak, but if there are then cases where it doesn't work, we require a plausible a reason why (e.g. a magical eye, or powers unknown but believable, such as Dumbledore's as-yet-unexplained ability to see through it). We can believe that one can conjure useable items out of thin air ("hundreds of squashy purple sleeping bags" [PA 9], "heavy manacles" [PA 19]), but there must then be a consistent reason why the Weasleys can't simply conjure up all the things that usually require money (and good theories do abound, which I won't detail here). Even though the laws of magic in the HP universe are seldom made explicit, they have a high level of internal consistency; if they did not, we would be finding holes in every chapter instead of the occasional "how does the Fidelius Charm work, exactly?" that surfaces. Some of the laws seem to be: -The world is full of naturally-occurring magic aside from that created by humans. There are magical plants (mandrakes, Devil's Snare, etc. etc.) and animals (dozens; see FB) as well as magical people. Whether there are any naturally-occurring magical objects is unknown; the books are filled with magical objects, but most seem to be enchanted (e.g. flying Ford Anglia) or created (e.g. the Philosopher's Stone) by humans. There are many whose magical properties may be human in origine or not (crystal balls, the Mirror of Erised). If anyone can identify an object that we know for a fact doesn't get its magical properties from humans, please do. -It is not possible to bring the dead back to life (GF 36) -Less definitively, it is not possible to re-ensoul victims of a Dementor's Kiss (PA 12) Spells, at least some of them, behave like physical energy, with forces, counterforces, and vectors much like those seen in physical objects. A spell can be "deflected" and "rebound," as Voldemort's attempted Avada Kedavra against Harry in 1981 did (GF 33). Two spells can collide like billiard balls: "Jets of light shot from both wands, hit each other in midair, and ricocheted off at angles--Harry's hit Goyle in the face, and Malfoy's hit Hermione" (GF 18). The storm of Stunning spells that the Ministry wizards send over Harry, Ron, and Hermione's heads in the wood after the World Cup create a wind that ripples their hair. Making magic uses energy as well. "[H]is Patronus was too feeble to drive the Dementor away. All it did was hover, like a semi-transparent cloud, draining Harry of energy as he fought to keep it there" (PA 12). Likewise, there are certain basic elements of magic that are a matter of mechanics: pronouncing words correctly (otherwise, you might end up with a buffalo on your chest, PS/SS 10), learning wrist movements (PS/SS 10), adding Potions ingredients in just the right proportions (PA 7) and at the right times (PS/SS 8). A wand is necessary for most magic. However, magic is far more than mechanics. * * * * * "But that was the easy part, I'm afraid. You see, the word alone is not enough." --Professor Lupin, PA 7 The words are just one ingredient of a spell, and there is only so much magic one can learn from books. An intangible and crucial element of most spells is intention, which can even make words unnecessary. Some wand-spells seem not to require an incantation at all (e.g. Snape conjuring up ropes, PA 19; the rope-ends fly to him with a click of his fingers), though this may just be Rowling tiring of coming up with a pithy quasi-Latin term every time someone waves a wand. "Accio" is enough to Summon whatever one is thinking of, without the noun; Molly Summons the Ton-Tongue Toffees (GF 6) and Harry the Triwizard Cup (GF 34) this way. For that matter, intention is key even when one does speak the noun; otherwise, "Accio Firebolt" would bring every Firebolt in the world that isn't nailed down, but it doesn't; it only brings the one Harry is thinking of, his own. Even charmed objects will respond more or less strongly depending on the intention of the wizard; Neville's broom does not at first respond to "Up!" while Harry, who is a natural flier, is unafraid of heights, and has been "looking forward to learning to fly more than anything else," gets an instantaneous response (PS/SS 9). Although Harry's speculation that brooms, like horses, can sense fear may be tongue in cheek, it is true that Neville's feelings do not match his words, and his intention to keep his feet on the ground appears to hamper his ability to command the broom. An ability to concentrate one's mind under stress is therefore very important to making magic. * * * * * "Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know." "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things -- friendship and bravery and . . ." --PS/SS 17 Another necessary element of many spells is, for lack of a more precise word, character. In some cases the personal element needed is some kind of experience, as with Harry's struggles to find a memory that is happy enough to make the Patronus incantation effective, since it "will work only if you are concentrating, with all your might, on a single, very happy memory" (PA 12). In others it is a personal quality such as the independence and will power that enable Harry to resist the Imperius Curse appears to stem from his independence and will power. Less nobly, Harry is stubborn, which also stands him in good stead. His inner voice balks at doing something as pointless as jumping onto the desk just on Moody's say-so: "Stupid thing to do, really . . . . I don't think I will, thanks" (GF 15). Perhaps some spells require downright evil characteristics; for example, perhaps only those who can call upon an inner reserve of sadism can successfully cast the Cruciatus. The intricate interaction of magic and character is crucial to JKR's universe; she is writing about Harry's development, not only into a practitioner of magic, but into adulthood, and his adventures are as much explorations of human experience and emotion and his own deepening character as magical exploits. Otherwise the books would not be nearly so enchanting (pun intended). Finally, magic requires innate magical ability. It may be that Muggles could wave wands and order broomsticks, "up!" without the slightest response. Some magical objects respond to Muggles--hence the necessity of the Muggle Protection Act, to protect unwary Muggles from enchanted objects such as sugar tongs that will clamp on their noses (CS 3, 4). But others, surely, respond only to a wizard/witch, or else there would be no difference between Muggles and magical folk. However, "wands and magical ability" is an upcoming topic, so I'll leave it at that. * * * * * "Take it, or I'll hex you. I know some good ones now." --Harry, GF 37 A brief note on hexes, jinxes, and curses. One can hex/jinx/curse both people and objects. Just like "spell" and "charm," these terms for "not very nice spell" seem to be used more or less interchangeably, though "curse" is generally reserved for very destructive spells such as the Unforgivable Curses. "Jinx" may have a light tone to the Muggle ear (it does to mine), but McGonagall uses the term to describe the things she fears Sirius Black might have done to Harry's Firebolt (PA 11), such as a "Hurling Hex" (PA 12), which are far from playful. So . . . your thoughts? Amy Z From hamster8 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 7 11:31:34 2001 From: hamster8 at hotmail.com (hamster8 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 11:31:34 -0000 Subject: Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010607115937.00a14bb0@rudjer.irb.hr> Message-ID: <9fnomm+tpjg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20353 Wow ... I actually have stuff to say! *Al delurks in a shower of purple sparks* Christian Stub? - "One could also look at this linguistically. While Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm und Drang, a literary movement advocating the abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. This suggests a closer connection to Russia and Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a later development. To me, it doesn't not seem immediately logical that Slavic students would accept learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance, when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to justify one or more schools on their own ?" Me - I mentally located it in Norway, I have to say. There is some point in GoF (I think on the Hogwarts Express where 'our gang' overhear Draco drawling to himself) where Harry imagines throwing Draco off a glacier, or something of that ilk. To my mind, where else in Europe are there glaciers? Switzerland doesn't really seem right. But then again, my knowledge of the Carpathians is very limited, and who's to say Durmstrang might not be as far away as the Caucasus Mountains, or even the Urals. I have to admit, I find JK's Germanic/Slavic fusion quite confusing. Then again, perhaps I should consider that the books are fiction, and JK probably didn't expect us to pick up on it (this = my standard explanation for anything in HP that defies explanation, like the missing 24 hours thingie) Of course, Hogwarts was surrounded by very tall mountains, and JK's descriptions certainly don't (to my mind, others may disagree) make it sound like it is located in a part of the UK that exists to Muggles; Scotland at a pinch, but in my experience the Highlands aren't rugged enough to be in Hogwarts' neighbourhood. Perhaps Durmstrang is likewise in some sort of 'magical dimension' kind of thing. Vlatka - "I have a question regarding the friendship between Karkaroff and Lucius. It is not clear to me when it started exactly. If it was during their Death Eating days, than why Igor didn't rat on him, as well. Igor did seem pretty desperate to deliver as many names as possible. Another possibility is that they met elsewhere (possibly at Hogwarts, Igor does say something like "good to be back" when he arrives there in GoF) and that Igor knew nothing about Lucius' involvement. Also, I think that Lucius wouldn't want to associate too much with someone who is on Voldemort's hit list and a security risk (Not quite slippery enough)." Lucius did evade Azkaban, of course. Perhaps neither of them were aware the other was a Death Eater. IIRC they wore masks most of the time when together ... would it be *too* difficult to remain quite anonymous? P'raps Igor didn't grass up Lucius because they already were great friends - Igor knew Lucius was free, and knew that if he gave the name of a man who had managed to escape Azkaban, Lucius would come and hunt him down *if* and when Igor was released, (which, obviously, he was). Lucius certainly won't want to associate with Igor in future installments (if JK keeps the characters 'in play' so to speak) because Igor didn't Apparate immediately to Voldemort's side in the graveyard at Little Hangleton. Al *medics cuff Al, and drag him screaming back to lurkdom* From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Jun 7 12:04:52 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:04:52 -0000 Subject: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? In-Reply-To: <9fmi80+2853@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fnql4+2l72@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20354 I have seen this cover beofre - quite a few months ago, actually. I also read somewhere (can't remember where) that this cover is already the cover of another, older book. Sorry to be so vague, but I can't imagine that JKR would allow the cover of OoP to be released when the book itself won't be out for *sob* another year! --jenny from ravenclaw********************************************* From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Jun 7 12:47:52 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:47:52 -0000 Subject: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic In-Reply-To: <9fnom4+auhs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fnt5o+u8ei@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20355 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > Another necessary element of many spells is, for lack of a more > precise word, character.> and character is crucial to JKR's universe; she is writing about > Harry's development, not only into a practitioner of magic, but into > adulthood, and his adventures are as much explorations of human > experience and emotion and his own deepening character as magical > exploits. Otherwise the books would not be nearly so enchanting (pun intended)>. > Great comments! What you wrote is pretty much what I, too think of magic in HP's world. I snipped the comments about magic ability, development and character because that is something I have noticed throughout the books so far. The more powerful the wizard/witch, the more and better magic they are able to perform. In GoF, when BC Sr. is delirious and goes into his memories, he mentions that his son received a nice number of O.W.L.S. I thought this was an important tidbit, because it helped convince me, later, that Crouch Jr. was truly able to impersonate Moody for so long. He had obviously been an excellent student at Hogwarts (much like Hermione, I imagine) who took his studies very seriously. He was clearly a powerful wizard (especially being able to fight the Imperius Curse and remember all of his magic after his stay in Azkaban). As for Harry, his abilities are getting stronger and more precise each year he is in school, regardless of his grades (I don't think he spends even a fraction of the time studying that Hermione does). We know already how much character Harry has because he has managed, for the most part, to come out of the Dreadful Dursleys' home relatively unscathed. He even has quite a bit of confidence in himself, if not a good deal of pride (as Crouch Jr. mentions to him about Harry not asking for help with the 2nd Task). I believe all of these things play a part in his abilities in magic. I really like how JKR doesn't make magic limitless, like in the "Sabrina, the Teenage Witch" series. There are laws and serious consequences for breaking them. If there weren't, there'd be many more Voldie types running around, IMO. For example, if everyone could Apparate, that's all anyone would ever do, as well as do a little Imperius action if one wanted the object of his/her affectins to respond. I could go on and on, but I won't. Thanks again for the great post! --jenny from ravenclaw********************************************* From saitaina at wizzards.net Thu Jun 7 12:51:46 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 05:51:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" References: <9fnql4+2l72@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00d501c0ef50$9d677880$284e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20356 Hun, the tentative release date is January, not another year. That's what, seven months away, chill out, no need to sob. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 5:04 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? > I have seen this cover beofre - quite a few months ago, actually. I > also read somewhere (can't remember where) that this cover is already > the cover of another, older book. > > Sorry to be so vague, but I can't imagine that JKR would allow the > cover of OoP to be released when the book itself won't be out for > *sob* another year! > > --jenny from ravenclaw********************************************* > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Thu Jun 7 12:57:13 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:57:13 -0000 Subject: FAT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fntn9+gbh2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20357 This really bothered me too, especially when I was reading GoF. That was when Dudley was forced on a diet, and when the twins played a prank on him with the toffee. I thought Harry was awful for laughing at him then (at least, it keeps us knowing that he's not perfect.) Well I hope JKR is going somewhere with this fat thing. I believe her point here is to criticize the parenting that he has received from the Dursleys. She's said in an interview that she really feels sorry for Dudley; that in some ways, he's had just as scarred a childhood as Harry. Look at him - he's a bully, he's a glutton. Dudley is portrayed as a spoiled kid (doesn't McGonagall say he was screaming for sweets in the beginning of PS/SS - and that's when he was a really small child!) before Harry comes along, or I might suggest that this has something to do with the Dursleys treating Dudley better than Harry out of spite. As some other people have mentioned, I don't think this will affect overweight children (I hope not) but it does raise important questions about the Dursleys and makes me wonder about them, especially about their pasts. Petunia strikes me as someone who was very lonely and maybe depressed before she got married and had a baby. There is no evidence for that, but in the beginning of PS/SS, that is just the impression I get. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Jun 7 15:46:46 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:46:46 -0000 Subject: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606213456.00b4a9d0@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9fo7l6+fsjs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20358 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > At 08:49 PM 6/6/01 -0400, JamiDeise at a... wrote: > >because a werewolf is a mere beast and a vampire is the epitome of undead > >cool? > > They *do* sell blood-flavored lollies for vampires in Hogsmeade... > > > > -- Dave Sorry, Dave, but that's not really correct: They sell blood-flavoured lollies, but it's Hermione who thinks Harry wouldn't like them an supposes they are for Vampires. From muggle-reader at angelfire.com Thu Jun 7 15:50:35 2001 From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:50:35 -0000 Subject: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606212701.03bfe330@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9fo7sb+qnc8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20359 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > The fake cover seems to suggest a desire for the Fab Three to > acquire an (illegal?) flying carpet.... Might there be something in > this? It *does* come up in GoF... > The cover has an interesting concept nonetheless. The phoenix, erupting like an atomic bomb-mushroom cloud, over what looks like a city of tents and three figures on a flying carpet zooming away, very "Enola Gay"-ish. Demelza. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Jun 7 16:06:11 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:06:11 -0000 Subject: short introduction & lots of questions Message-ID: <9fo8pj+37ed@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20360 Hi, everybody, first I have to make an apologetical auto- presentation: I'm an Austrian (NOT having voted Haider, just to get things straight) currently living in Italy, so please everybody forgive me if my English is not quite up to your standards. Anyway: This is my first day in this group and I'm quite thrilled writing this message. Question 1: Can anybody tell me how a person becomes Minister of Magic? Because it is mentioned that e.g. Barty Crouch was believed to be the next minitser, but after his son's trial and his wife's death his popularity went down and so, in the end, the lucky one was Cornelius fudge. But it is never made clear who nominates or elects the minister. (On the contrary, the Hogwarts Headmaster is obviously elected by the board of governors) Question 2: Who on earth had the idea that snape might be a Vampire? he most certainly would need a shrink, as he's suffering from a very bad inferiority complex, but a Vampire.... Question 3: How will, in your opinion, continue the relationship between Hermione and duck-footed Viktor Krum? because he seems much more interested in her than she in him. Well, that's enough for the moment. Pigwidgeon37 From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com Thu Jun 7 16:15:19 2001 From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:15:19 -0000 Subject: Snape and Hermione (was vampires) In-Reply-To: <9fnjnd+atj2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fo9an+6psg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20361 David wrote: > While agree with your general comments about characterisation, I > think Hermione might keep Snape's secret secret - because of the > prejudice issue. I'm guessing that vampires are generally hated > and feared by wizards - the note in FB about the centaurs is a > clue. Hermione might then adopt a similar attitude to the one she > has about giants and cut Snape a lot of slack (as well as realising > after GOF that a word in the wrong place might blow a hole in > Dumbledore's strategy). Good point. I suppose it's possible; Hermione is a pretty mature girl. However, we don't see *any* indication at all that she knows something about Snape. We did see an indication with Lupin. Has she suddenly become a better secret-keeper? I can't say. But I'm still anti-Vampire!Snape nonetheless. > If Snape is a vampire, then this puts his ignoring of Hermione's > sudden tooth growth in a different light: to comment on the length > of her teeth would be a racist remark (or possibly his anti-fang, > sunlight protection potion has some odd side effects on his vision). So, your saying that he says "I see no difference" because he doesn't want to be racist? Forgive the snort (*snort*), but if he didn't want to appear to be making an off-color remark that might implicate him, why couldn't he just say "Hospital wing" and leave it at that? > Finally, his task at the end of GOF would be to get the vampires on > side with Dumbledore. This could be scary if joining the wizards > is seen as a betrayal by the 'vampiring community' at large. This I have considered. In fact, this is the only thing about the entire Vampire theory that I like, because it's a plausible idea on what Snape is actually does that fateful evening. However, it's still not enough to convert me to support the Vampire idea. Snape may be a lot of nasty things, but I'm also quite convinced that he's very very human, as well. > David, now seiously worried that Snape might trip and fall on the > point of his wand LOL, what an undignified way to die! :) Lyda From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Jun 7 16:20:21 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:20:21 -0000 Subject: Draco - Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010607115937.00a14bb0@rudjer.irb.hr> Message-ID: <9fo9k5+emhn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20362 Hi,Vlatka, as to Malfoy- karkaroff: That those two are friends (if Lucius malfoy can be somebody's friend, which I strongly doubt), is something Draco says when talking to Crabbe and Goyle on the train. And Ron deducts that they met at the Quidditch World- Cup. Of course, they met much earlier, being both of them Death Eaters. Lucius M. would not have wanted to send his son to Durmstrang because he was such a good friend of Karkaroff's, but because there, he would have thorougly learned the Dark Arts, not only defence against them. And don't forget that the desire to send Draco there goes back to the period of book 1, where the resurrection of Voldemort was not as palpable as in book 4- so being associated with somebody on voldemort's hit list wouldn#t have been as embarrassing as in book 4. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., zora_djevojka at y... wrote: > > Saitaina wrote: > > > >Each of these quotes point to the dangerous behavior of a bullying child. > >That in itself is really a bigger issue then his weight. That bullying will > >stay with him in life and later endanger his own children. Draco Malfoy is > >not the only one indager having having the SCF (Services to Children and > >Families) or the British equvilent called on him to remove a child from his > >care in this series and it's very sad, and disturbing to see people refer to > >such behavior as popularity. > > While I'm not a Draco apologist, I really do not understand this. Draco > exhibits his bullying behavior towards the people he considers inferior to > him. While his mental processes are definitely warped (at this time- I like > the redemption scenario), this doesn't mean he cannot be genuinely devoted > to his family. Actually, that's my take on Lucius, too. (Well, not > completely. No redemption for him.) > > Koinonia quotes from: > > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub? wrote: > > > > > > > > One could also look at this linguistically. While > > > Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm > > > und Drang, a literary movement advocating the > > > abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German > > > relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. > > > This suggests a closer connection to Russia and > > > Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a > > > later development. To me, it doesn't not seem > > > immediately logical that Slavic students would accept > > > learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance, > > > when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to > > > justify one or more schools on their own ? > > I wouldn't be so sure. The Habsburghs have a lot to answer for. Vienna was > the center for much of Central and Eastern Europe, and for a long time. > Consequently, German was the primary foreign language learned in those > regions (Now it's English) > > > > I have a question regarding the friendship between Karkaroff and > Lucius. It is not clear to me when it started exactly. If it was during > their Death Eating days, than why Igor didn't rat on him, as well. Igor did > seem pretty desperate to deliver as many names as possible. > Another possibility is that they met elsewhere (possibly at Hogwarts, Igor > does say something like "good to be back" when he arrives there in GoF) and > that Igor knew nothing about Lucius' involvement. > > Also, I think that Lucius wouldn't want to associate too much with someone > who is on Voldemort's hit list and a security risk (Not quite slippery enough). > > Does anyone have any ideas? > > > Vlatka > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com Thu Jun 7 16:28:16 2001 From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:28:16 -0000 Subject: short introduction & lots of questions In-Reply-To: <9fo8pj+37ed@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9foa30+em58@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20363 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: >> Question 1: Can anybody tell me how a person becomes Minister of Magic? Because it is mentioned that e.g. Barty Crouch was believed to be the next minitser, but after his son's trial and his wife's death his popularity went down and so, in the end, the lucky one was Cornelius fudge. But it is never made clear who nominates or elects the minister. (On the contrary, the Hogwarts Headmaster is obviously elected by the board of governors)<< Do you know, I've never thought about this. Hmm. Good question. I'd imagine that there's some sort of board of Ministry officials or such, but who knows, perhaps it's popular election. That would be interesting... >> Question 2: Who on earth had the idea that snape might be a Vampire? he most certainly would need a shrink, as he's suffering from a very bad inferiority complex, but a Vampire...<< Poor guy. Snape seems to get the worst of the theories thrown at him. I don't know who came up with the Vampire idea, but I've seen it posted numerous times in several different places, so it is quite a widespread theory. One which I most certainly do not hold too, BTW. >> Question 3: How will, in your opinion, continue the relationship between Hermione and duck-footed Viktor Krum? because he seems much more interested in her than she in him.<< That depends on if she visits him in Bulgaria, but I got the impression that she turned down his offer. I bet her parents wouldn't be too keen on the idea anyway; I know my mother would *never* have let me date an 18-year-old guy when I was 14, and she'd have had a heart attack if some an older guy asked me to come stay with him in a different country. I think a long-distance friendship might continue, but if her glares to Fleur Delacour in GoF are any indication, I think she has her mind on a certain someone else. Which, I might add, is kind of ironic, since Ron seems to be so much less mature than she. Lyda From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 16:34:53 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? In-Reply-To: <9fmi80+2853@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010607163453.29798.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20364 Um it says page not found...did you type the link in right? Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 7 16:38:14 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:38:14 -0000 Subject: Snape and Hermione (was vampires) In-Reply-To: <9fo9an+6psg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9foalm+41qv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20365 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" wrote: > David wrote: > > > While agree with your general comments about characterisation, I > > think Hermione might keep Snape's secret secret - because of the > > prejudice issue. I'm guessing that vampires are generally hated > > and feared by wizards - the note in FB about the centaurs is a > > clue. Hermione might then adopt a similar attitude to the one she > > has about giants and cut Snape a lot of slack (as well as realising > > after GOF that a word in the wrong place might blow a hole in > > Dumbledore's strategy). > > Good point. I suppose it's possible; Hermione is a pretty mature > girl. However, we don't see *any* indication at all that she knows > something about Snape. We did see an indication with Lupin. Has she > suddenly become a better secret-keeper? I'd say she has. She never tells the boys that she's guessed Hagrid is half-giant, and she doesn't let on that she's captured Rita Skeeter until she makes her revelation on the train. > This I have considered. In fact, this is the only thing about the > entire Vampire theory that I like, because it's a plausible idea on > what Snape is actually does that fateful evening. However, it's still > not enough to convert me to support the Vampire idea. Something I noticed just recently: SS/PS ch. 16 The other two stared at [Harry]. He was pale and his eyes were glittering. "I'm going out of here tonight and I'm going to try and get to the stone first." GoF ch.36 "Severus," said Dumbledore, turning to Snape,"You know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready...if you are prepared..." "I am," said Snape. He looked slightly paler than usual and his cold, black eyes glittered. So, does the parallelism have a purpose...is Snape's task similar to Harry's? Does he have to contact the vampires before Voldemort does? Or is he going straight to Voldemort himself? > > Snape may be a lot of nasty things, but I'm also quite convinced that > he's very very human, as well. But that's the point isn't it? That non-humans can be *human* too? Thought I agree Snape has a lot on his plate...as I've said on occasion, Dumbledore has probably assigned him an extra house-elf to carry his emotional baggage. Pippin, LOL at Snape falling on his wand...but he won't. From muggle-reader at angelfire.com Thu Jun 7 16:39:23 2001 From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:39:23 -0000 Subject: short introduction & lots of questions In-Reply-To: <9fo8pj+37ed@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9foanr+rpk6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20366 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Question 1: Can anybody tell me how a person becomes Minister of > Magic? Because it is mentioned that e.g. Barty Crouch was believed to > be the next minitser, but after his son's trial and his wife's death > his popularity went down and so, in the end, the lucky one was > Cornelius fudge. But it is never made clear who nominates or elects > the minister. (On the contrary, the Hogwarts Headmaster is obviously > elected by the board of governors) > It's never explained in the series. I assume it is based upon the UK's parliamentary government and how they elect their officials. Actually I wouldn't be terribly surprized if the Ministry of Magic is a part of the UK government, since Fudge did inform the "muggle Minister" about the Black escape from Azkaban implying that the muggle government is aware of the magical population. > Question 2: Who on earth had the idea that snape might be a Vampire? > he most certainly would need a shrink, as he's suffering from a very > bad inferiority complex, but a Vampire.... > That idea comes from references in the books. PS/SS Quirrell remarks that Snape is sulking about Hogwarts "like a bat". Seamus or Dean's comment that maybe the next DADA professor will be a vampire. There was also a description of Snape's robes fluttering after him like bat wings or something along those lines. > Question 3: How will, in your opinion, continue the relationship > between Hermione and duck-footed Viktor Krum? because he seems much > more interested in her than she in him. > However J. K. Rowling will proceed with the relationships in her books is fine with me. -Demelza From crabtree at ktc.com Thu Jun 7 16:47:36 2001 From: crabtree at ktc.com (crabtree at ktc.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:47:36 -0000 Subject: Krum Message-ID: <9fob78+6d7l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20367 Many of you have mentioned Krum in something if a negative sense. I tend to see similiarities between Krum and Harry. Harry has been thrust into his new world receiving unsolicited attention because of something that he has no power over (that is his scar and the events leading to it). I feel that Krum may have shown a talent early in life as a seeker - as Harry did. Perhaps in the atmosphere of the Durmstrang school he is forced into a spotlight that he would rather not be in. I'm not saying he doesn't love Quidditch, but he seems to try to shun the overbearing attention of Karkaroff. Perhaps his "hunched-up and brooding" appearance symbolizes his unhappiness in his life situation. ProfessorPhlash - (first time comment) From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 7 16:53:18 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:53:18 -0000 Subject: that crazy vampire idea was short introduction & lots of questions - In-Reply-To: <9fo8pj+37ed@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fobhu+nomv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20368 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Hi, everybody, > > first I have to make an apologetical auto- presentation: I'm an > Austrian ( snip) > Anyway: This is my first day in this group and I'm quite thrilled > writing this message. Gruss Gott! und wilkommen. I spent my junior year abroad in Vienna and have very fond memories of it. > Question 2: Who on earth had the idea that snape might be a Vampire? > he most certainly would need a shrink, as he's suffering from a very > bad inferiority complex, but a Vampire.... > Er, that would be me, at least on this board...:runs away as the seventy percent of respondents who think this idea is batty come after me with stakes and torches: The unofficial Harry Potter site at fandom.com has a long and active thread called Snape's Secret which began shortly before I made my first post about it, but I didn't know about that when I came up with the notion. It may be a red herring, but then it's odd that Harry doesn't seem to suspect anything. Pippin From Lindsay at stirton.net Thu Jun 7 17:39:48 2001 From: Lindsay at stirton.net (Lindsay Stirton) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:39:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: short introduction & lots of questions In-Reply-To: <9foa30+em58@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20370 >>> Question 1: Can anybody tell me how a person becomes Minister of > Magic? In terms of the British Constitution, Ministers are appointed by the Prime Minister, who is appointed by the Queen from the House of Commons. There is precedent that Ministers do not have to be members of either Houses of Parliament, though this is very unusual. This is not as daft as it sounds. There is obviously communication at the highest levels between the muggle authorities and the Ministry of Magic at the highest level - the Minister of Magic alerts the muggle authorities about Sirius Black's escape in POA. So it is not straining things too much to suppose that the Ministry of Magic is simply a Ministry of the British Government, much as the Ministry of Agriculture etc. It makes you think about Tony Blair in a different light, doesn't it? Maybe the Tories weren't so far off the mark in 1997 with those 'demon eyes'! Lindsay From joym999 at aol.com Thu Jun 7 18:01:52 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 18:01:52 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #5 Results Message-ID: <9fofio+svma@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20371 Here are the responses to this week's HP4GU Contest, in which you were asked to speculate about wizard's sex, love and romantic lives. Once again, the quality of the responses was much more impressive than the quantity. I will refrain from making any more disparaging remarks about the sex lives of HP4GU members, but I must recommend that many of you should consider contacting some of the people below to inquire about the availability of the products they mention. This group of speculations comes from Robert Carnegie, a newbie who we all realized at once was Our Kind of Nutcase. Welcome, Robert. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I suppose a Foe-glass that tells you if her husband's Apparating home early from work would be useful... Cutaway robes... Mirror of Gniliec... Professor Sprout's book of what strange plants and fungi are used for that _isn't_ on the school reading list... The _special_ Golden Snitch set for the ladies, say no more? Somewhere secret to keep the _special_ photographs (while allowing the steam to escape...) The video of /Holidays with Hags/ by Gilderoy Lockhart, also exclusively for ladies perhaps... /Impervius!/ windows on your Flying Ford Anglia... Extremely erotic statue of a humped witch (I suspect that this joke is exclusive to the Lexicon, throughout POA she's "the witch with the hump" or "the one-eyed witch") /Eureka!/ will do for a spell to enhance position #6 in the Indian section of _The Perfumed Garden_ - this is the position with the charming name of "the screw of Archimedes". From the description, I imagine it's a Hovering Charm, I won't dwell on it. Instant Scalping if that is your preference... Spinning wheel with enchanted needle so that the kids all prick their fingers and fall into an enchanted sleep and the two of you have the afternoon to yourselves... French Howlers. (They're like French letters only more, um, emphatic.) For less well-informed males, an enchanted map, or just an ordinary bloody map. "Eureka!" And you don't want to know what he's doing in the bathroom with that bottle of Skelegrow. Come to think, I wish _I_ didn't know. ? Robert Carnegie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Susan has submitted some useful ideas: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, as the parent of a 3.5 year old who has yet to sleep through the night, and a 20 month old, I speculate that wizards/witches will be able to a) put their children into an enchanted sleep which will not be harmful in any way b) put a boundary spell so that no one else can disturb them c) sleep for 12 hours d) get up and talk to one's partner for the first time in 6 weeks e) sleep for 12 more hours f) wake up and make wild passionate love... Okay..let's see, what about making love while flying? using the old magic carpet (mentioned in the GofF) might work best...floating among the clouds.... Susan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- And from Elizabeth some spells which I, personally, would empty out my bank account for: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- *SIGH* I could really do with a spell that was something along the lines of 'Boyfriendus Makeus Upus Thy GODDAMNMINDUS!!!' Alright, this is a kind of shallow spell, but it is one I really wish existed. I think it would make life so much easier for us girls, be us witch or Muggle. Especially those who have an emotionally immature brainless spineless thoughtless 'boyfriend' of dubious moral fibre regarding faithfulness and who seems to think that an engagement can be turned on and off like a tap. Hmpf. Hmm. Time-Turners. *Two* boyfriends...Oooh. Of course, the MoM would be very angry... Now, for one of my favorite things that we've been told exist but been told very little about. Love Potions!! We know they're banned at Hogwarts, but I wonder why they're not banned in general as well. If you could make the person you fancy, fancy you right back with a drop of Love Potion in their Butterbeer, then things could and probably would turn icky very quickly. Plus, it would take all the fun out of dating. How many of us have spent hours dreaming about a guy, 'accidently' bumping into him in the halls, boring our friends senseless with 'He's so HOT! I luurrrvve him. I want to marry him and have his children etc etc ad nauseum!', primping and preening every day just in case we run into him? *That's* the fun bit. Once you actually snare Mr. Right he all to often turns into Mr-Was-Right- Until-I-Got-Him-And-Then-Met-His-Really-Cute-Best-Buddy. As for how they work - well, JKR's got me there. I guess they could be kind of the magical equivalent to makeup and trampy clothes. Maybe, like AK, they need quite a bit of magical power behind them, which is beyond most little pubescent lurvestruck witchies. I guess they make you look good to the object of your desire, but eventually it wears off and they see you as you really are. And then I guess they either still like you, or they go screaming off on their Firebolt as fast as possible. Which all kind of parallels with wearing makeup and cute (read: uncomfortable) clothes, but then you get home, take off the makeup and slob around in trackies. Elizabeth C ---------------------------------------------------------------------- And, from the irrepressible Jamieson, this terrific tale: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Oddly enough you picked the subject of sex for this weeks contest. Coincidentally, while I was going through all my papers and what not in my desk, I came across this article I had saved from Witch Weekly magazine a few weeks ago. I thought it would fit the contest perfectly. ? Jamieson A Great Sexual Weapon----by special correspondent Andreus Koffshinks. There is an old legend in my family. Little did I know that it was true. Our family has held this legend in secret for thousands of years and now, I share it with you. What is the reason for this? Not even I know the answer; I just feel compelled to tell it. Our family, the Koffshinks, have been around for a while. No one knows where our family line started, but one thing was for certain: we were a very open family. Nothing bothered us, and we were pretty open with everything. Everything except revealing ourselves to the Muggles. My great, great, great, great Grandfather, Seamus Koffshinks, believed in sex. We all had a belief system, and his happened to be fornication. Could we blame him? Nope. Now, Grandpa Koffshinks, Sean to his friends, believed so much in sex that he opened up what we would now call a brothel. It was the very first wizard brothel ever in existence, and the only one of it's kind. For you see, in this brothel anything you dreamed of having or wanting was yours. And this is where our story starts. On Midsummer Eve Grandpa Sean was polishing the front counter when a woman walked in. She was tall, long legs that just didn't quit, and enough cleavage to drown the most eager teenager. She had dark eyes, my Grandfather remembers looking into them and being lost. "How can I help you?" He stammered out, still glaring at her bosom. "I believe," she said in a smoky voice, "that it is I who can help you. Are you Seamus Koffshinks?" "Who wants to know?" he stuttered. "My name is Sasha. And I seek employment for one night only." "Oh. I see. How, um, lovely." Sean spit out. He was now sweating heavily, and the room seemed suddenly hot. "And what Magic to you have?" It should be noted, for those that are now reading this, that my Grandfathers brothel was special for a great many reasons. Not only could you have any kind of man or woman you desired, but each "border" performed a special bit of Magic all their own, to spice up the sex that sweated between the bed sheets. One woman could shoot off fireworks during orgasm. One man's hair lit on fire to show how high the fire of his passion was. One woman was able to recite a charm so that every part of the body was an erogenous zone. "That is to be found out at a later time, to be sure." Sasha crooned. "Oh. Alright. Lovely." the room seemed very hot, indeed. "And if I could just get you to look in our ledger at the gentlemen and ladies, the Witches and Wizards that is, who are here this evening, you could pick any one of your choosing-" "I want you." Sasha said simply. At this time, Sean wasn't married. I note that here for his wife, if she be reading, as to not send her into hysterics. Also, there was a policy that Sean did not sleep with any of the woman that lived in the brothel. It didn't seem to matter tonight, however, because he responded: "Oh. Alright. Lovely." and led her off to his private quarters. Once there, Sean began to take off his clothes in a hurry, the heat of his body seeming to burn them off. Sasha, however, had other plans. She chatted to him about the weather, what the Minister of Magic was doing, how the cows down the way were fairing, did he like the colour of her dress, that sort of thing. Sean, by this time, was in a fit. He had torn apart his bed sheet, and was resisting the urge to pleasure himself. Sasha saw this, and smiled. She then took him, and had him. When Sean's orgasm came, it was the most earth shattering he had ever had. It has never been equaled since. (Apologies go out to Harriet, Sean's wife).The walls shook, sparks flew from the heat of the bed and the light seemed to sing. For you see, Sasha had discovered the one element to spice up a Wizard and Witches sex life: Anticipation. And that, dear readers, is the story of our family legend. Perhaps, if the occasion suits you, you might take a visit to the brothel which I now own. It's the lovely house just before you hit Knockturn Alley. I hope to see you some time soon. Best regards, and until next time dear readers. And remember: A man who is made to wait, is a man that you can keep satisfied. From aravis01 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 18:04:18 2001 From: aravis01 at yahoo.com (aravis01 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 18:04:18 -0000 Subject: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? In-Reply-To: <9fne79+eju4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fofn2+lhij@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20372 I thought it looked familiar, so I looked it up.... It appears that the book cover in question was the video sleeve for the movie "The Phoenix and the Magic Carpet", which was based on a book by Edith Nesbit. (can be found by searching for "The Phoneix and the Magic Carpet" at http://shopping.yahoo.com/video/ ) - aravis --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gaynor Thomas" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" wrote: > > This cover is indeed a fake as I have seen it in many contests > > It is part of the Harry Potter Galleries Book 5 cover contest at: > > http://www.hpgalleries.com/covercontest4.htm > > There's quite a few entries from different age-groups. Some are > pretty cool! > > Gaynor From cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com Thu Jun 7 18:06:42 2001 From: cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com (cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 18:06:42 -0000 Subject: Phoenixes Message-ID: <9fofri+gra6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20373 I have a question for whoever wants to answer it. I was just re-reading CoS and came to the part where Fawkes dies and is reborn. Does it say anywhere, or does anyone have any theories on how often a phoenix dies and is reborn? Christine From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 18:10:42 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 18:10:42 -0000 Subject: Krum In-Reply-To: <9fob78+6d7l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fog32+gk3h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20374 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., crabtree at k... wrote: > Many of you have mentioned Krum in something if a negative sense. I > tend to see similiarities between Krum and Harry. Harry has been > thrust into his new world receiving unsolicited attention because of > something that he has no power over (that is his scar and the events > leading to it). I feel that Krum may have shown a talent early in > life as a seeker - as Harry did. Perhaps in the atmosphere of the > Durmstrang school he is forced into a spotlight that he would rather > not be in. I'm not saying he doesn't love Quidditch, but he seems to > try to shun the overbearing attention of Karkaroff. Perhaps his > "hunched-up and brooding" appearance symbolizes his unhappiness in > his life situation. > > ProfessorPhlash - (first time comment) I hope none of my posts about Krum were thought of as negative! I'm a Krum supporter and wish there was more talk about him. Of course, I guess there isn't much we can say regarding him. There isn't much information on him. I just hope he's around again, which I am sure he will be. I think you had a good take on Krum. Koinonia From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 19:03:53 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 19:03:53 -0000 Subject: Snape as vampire/Hermione/task In-Reply-To: <9fn3b9+pthn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9foj6p+b73v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20375 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" wrote: > > About that Vampire essay... alright, I'm pretty sure the general > theory that you Vampire-Snapefans have is that when Lupin rescues > Harry from Snape's evil clutches after the Hogsmeade incident Lupin > said his little line about the "Vampire essay" simply to get back at > Snape for the little werewolf essay stunt. That they weren't > necessarily studying it in class (at least, not in much depth) and it > was just a kind of reserved warning or something of Lupin's. > > However... forget not that it couldn't have been just a simple > warning of Lupin's, as Neville makes it obviously clear that the > assigned essay was real. Page 276, PoA, American version: > > "Er-- not now-- I was going to the library and do that vampire essay > for Lupin--" > > "I'll come with you!" Neville said brightly. "I haven't done it > either!" > > So, the essay *was* really assigned. Yes, the essay was assigned. I mentioned Neville and Harry discussing the vampire issue when *Snape* shows up. Just happens that they were discussing vampires and all that garlic stuff! It just seems Lupin might have introduced vampires ealier than he had planned. Which brings me to my next > conclusion: If Hermione, who puts an insane amount effort into her > homework, can figure out the truth about Lupin's lycanthropy from > doing Snape's essay, then wouldn't she also be able to understand the > truth about Snape's "Vampirism" from Lupin's essay? She probably has figured it out. I will comment on Hermione further down. > > Now, I know you guys will contadict me with the usual excuses ("It's > a potion he uses to conceal his symptoms!" and so on...) BUT, Lupin > has a potion too, and it does not conceal all of his symptoms. I have > my doubts that there is a cure-all potion for the symptoms of > Vampirism (that greasy hair is not a side-effect, sorry) Why can't the greasy hair, the crooked yellow teeth and the sallow skin be a side effect? Snape is not a werewolf so he isn't going to turn into a little wolfie and crawl up on a couch. The potion would affect him in a different way. We have talked about this extensively on snapefans but I will bring it up again. No one ever says Snape is smelly or dirty. Ron nor Harry ever mentions that Snape has bad hygiene. Let's face it, if he did we would have been told about it by now. Don't give me any of this *natual oily hair* stuff either ;) Even oily hair looks clean every now and then and Snape's hair is *always* greasy. So it's either because of a potion or he purposely slicks it. I could see where he might put a little grease in it for appearance sake! and > therefore, it would seem to me that Hermione would be able to > discover that Snape is not what he seems. > > Now, of course, Hermione could be protecting Snape's secret, like she > did with Lupin, but even this I have my doubts upon. I think that > Hermione, although she has that great reverence for teachers, would > tell Harry and Ron the truth about Snape. Perhaps not right away, but > I would think she definitely would in GoF when they are musing over > what Snape did with his "first chance"... Hermione trusts Dumbledore and McGonagall. I am sure she figures they know (at least Dumbledore) and therefore if Dumbledore isn't telling neither is she. Hermione seems to be a great judge of character, subtracting Lockhart, of course. But when a young girl gets a crush on someone their actions can sometimes be excused. (I'm sure my mother thought I was crazy when I couldn't get enough of Bobby Sherman) Hermione didn't tell about Lupin or the time-turner. She only told about the Firebolt because she was concerned about Harry's safety. She's not saying anything yet because she doesn't feel the need. We are also assuming that the know-it-all knows. Maybe she doesn't! I'm going to give Hermione some credit here and say she does know but is keeping it quiet as she should. > > Snape is already quite the complex character. He has a bitter current > life, he doesn't appear to venture out anywhere, he was once a spy > and he may have resumed his double life, he has a dark past of > alliance with Voldemort, he's got a longstanding hatred of Harry's > father... why does JKR need to add vampirism to the pot? I mean, > really, how much can the poor guy deal with? I think he's got enough > characterization to build on as is. What do we know about Snape? Most of us seem to think Snape is bitter because of his past. We are willing to marry him off, give him a child, think his wife and child are dead, or think his wife is still alive and a Death Eater, but wouldn't any of that give him too much baggage? We want to know why he joined the Death Eaters in the first place and we give many reasons. Wouldn't some of those reasons give him too much baggage? Just maybe it is the vampirism that links all of these things together. dfrankis wrote: <> foxmoth wrote: <> GoF ch 33: The dementors will join us...they are our natural allies...we will recall the banished giants...I shall have all my devoted servants returned to me, *and* an army of creaturees whom all fear..." Who wouldn't fear the vampires? Could this be who Voldemort is referring to? We know he has been in the forest with them. Is it so far fetched that Voldemort will have vampires on his side? So did Snape go to the vampire community and have a little chat with them? I think it's possible but then I also believe he could have just as well gone back to Voldemort that night. I'm still sitting on the fence. As dfrankis says, the vampires might look upon Snape as betraying them. I would be afraid to go back there also! You don't want to get on the bad side of a vampire even if you are one (or part one). Koinonia From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 19:30:14 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 12:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? In-Reply-To: <991888349.2131.15378.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010607193014.75717.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20376 Milz wrote: >I'm not describing anything within this message, but >it may still be >spoilerish. To avoid rocks, hairnets and the ire of a >new >mother, I recommend that any replies with >descriptions should be >labeled as a "SPOILER" > >Someone directed me to this web site >(http://www.landofharrypotter.homestead.com/BookCovers.html). > Scroll >to the bottom and it has the UK OoP book cover. Not >sure if this is a >'red herring' or not. But it looks legit on the >surface. I don't know about that. I went a looked at it and while the other pictures(if you right click on it, it asks you if you want to save the picture)are labeled by title and country the Oop is labeled "fake_phoenix" so it's very likely a red herring. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 19:41:47 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 12:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dudley-Bulley or popular kid? In-Reply-To: <991888349.2131.15378.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010607194147.78077.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20377 >>At 08:40 PM 6/6/01 -0700, Saitaina wrote: >>"He was usually the one who held people's arms >>behind their backs >>while >>Dudley hit them"-regarding Dudley's best friend, >>Piers Pollykiss. >> >>"Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd >>Harry Potter in his >>baggy >>old clothes and broken glasses and nobody liked to >>disagree with >>Dudley's >>gang." > Dave wrote: > >Does anyone besides me hold out hope that Dudley and >Piers will >get Avada Kedavra-ed (ironically by Draco)? Oh please! (begging here) I have come to hate Dudley enough that after reading it the first time all the way through(or when I read it out loud to my DDs) I tend to skip the parts with Dudley in them. the first time I read PS/SS the one question I had was "Why hasn't Child Protective Sevices(or it's UK equiv.) been called on these people by the school?" Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 7 19:45:40 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 19:45:40 -0000 Subject: Phoenixes In-Reply-To: <9fofri+gra6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9foll4+jhtq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20378 Christine querried: >> I have a question for whoever wants to answer it. I was just re-reading CoS and came to the part where Fawkes dies and is reborn. Does it say anywhere, or does anyone have any theories on how often a phoenix dies and is reborn?<< Greek mythology claims that only one phoenix can exist at a time. After 500 years, the old phoenix makes his final nest in a volcano, and is consumed by flame. From those ashes arises a new phoenix, who will live for 500 years then repeat the process. The phoenix is found in other cultures as well, most notably in Asia. I'm not well versed in their legends regarding the fire bird, so if anyone has any thoughts on that one, I'm all ears. ~Emma From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Thu Jun 7 20:13:44 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 20:13:44 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter Bug-Brain (was: Rita Skeeter Bug) In-Reply-To: <9fmjfl+70pc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fon9o+5274@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20379 " Mr. Kennilworthy Whisp at the > beginning of QTA tells us that, "[The Animagi] who finds.. > [themselves] transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, having > a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go the > moment they take flight." > Actually, this sentence does NOT speak of Animagi, but of witches or wizards who are transfigured. (So Malfoy would have had the brain of a Ferret when transfigured by Moody/Crouch). The previous sentence is the one that speaks of Animagi, it states "Those few animagi who transform into winged creatures may enjoy flight, but they are a rarity." Sirius when a dog maintains his own mind - although his emotions do become more dog-like. Florence From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Thu Jun 7 20:27:26 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 20:27:26 -0000 Subject: Krum swimming/Durmstrang location In-Reply-To: <9fnip3+2jvi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9foo3e+oftt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20380 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., atypke at y... wrote: > > > > Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to > > mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal > people > > can't swim in water like that. > > > Swimming in ice cold water is a custom in Russia and the Ukraine > (don't know about Belorus). I think they particularly do this around > Easter. I lived in Poland for a few years on a study abroad thing, and > every year the news would show "what those crazy russians" were doing. > If Durmstrang is in fact in the cold north eastern slavic countries, > then Krum's behaviour wouldn't be all that strange. > > Agatha Norwegians also take cold swims in their fjiords. Although I think Krum's swimming in the lake was because he'd figured out the egg clue and was practising or trying to familiarise himself with the underwater terrain. I don't have a problem with the distance between Norway and Bulgaria, beacause with only three prestidgious European wizarding schools lots of people will have to travel a long way to one. As far as I see the fact that they have long hours of daylight in summer and darkness in winter means that Durmstrang must be very far north despite its Germanic sounding name. Florence From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Jun 7 20:27:55 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 20:27:55 -0000 Subject: FAT Message-ID: <9foo4b+2png@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20381 I've been reading the postings about Dudley, his weight and his problems. Here are my thoughts: Someone mentioned that Dudley's upbringing is really the issue with his weight. I completely agree. Petunia and Vernon Dursley are, IMO, not very good parents. As mean as they are to Harry, they spoil Dudley even more. He has been given no limits, no consequences, and no real guidance of any kind for his behavior. I think parents who allow their children to eat endlessly are abusive. It's a form of neglect, because anyone as obese as Dudley is unhealthy and any normal parent should see that. Insisting that "my child is not like that!" when all evidence points to the contrary is doing an injustice to one's child. JKR is clearly showing us the kind of parents the Dursleys are. His weight is a way to physically show us how spoiled, gluttonous and careless Dudley has become because that is how his parents raised him. I understand that JKR's constant references to his weight are not the nicest references, but his weight has become a symbol of how he was raised. Had Dudley's parents said no more than just once or twice in his life, he might not be the bullying, temper tantrum throwing 14 year old he is now. I'm curious to see what will come of his diet. --jenny from raveclaw****************************** From mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 20:33:52 2001 From: mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com (Michi) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley-Bulley or popular kid? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010606213139.03bfc350@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20010607203352.16473.qmail@web3202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20382 --- Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > At 08:40 PM 6/6/01 -0700, Saitaina wrote: > >"He was usually the one who held people's arms > behind their backs while > >Dudley hit them"-regarding Dudley's best friend, > Piers Pollykiss. > > > >"Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd > Harry Potter in his baggy > >old clothes and broken glasses and nobody liked to > disagree with Dudley's > >gang." > > Does anyone besides me hold out hope that Dudley and > Piers will > get Avada Kedavra-ed (ironically by Draco)? Oh, I dunno... Avada Kedavra him and Piers and it will be over much too quickly. I'd vote for a bit of time with the Cruciatus curse, just enough to put some fear into him and then put him under the Imperitus curse and make him serve Harry hand and foot or something. Not that Harry would ever go for it but I'd say that would be fitting for 10+ years of living under the that kid's fat butt :) Personally I'd like to see something happen to Vernon and Petunia. Dun like them, no I don't. :) Michi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 7 20:35:19 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 20:35:19 -0000 Subject: another correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fooi7+81fm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20383 I wrote, at way too early in the morning, apparently: >And at the Yule Ball, of the eight people who are > champions or dates thereof, six are Quidditch players. Uh, someone gently asked offlist who the six were. Make that five. Maybe the next time I can't sleep at 3 a.m. I should take a nice long bath instead of trying to respond to HP posts. Amy Z From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org Thu Jun 7 22:05:41 2001 From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:05:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley-Bulley or popular kid? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20384 >>>role model to show that the mean kid is the popular kid, but I don't know >>what would be perfect. That's the key to anything. You can never nit-pick >>too much because you'll never please everyone. > >Where is it mentioned Dudly as 'popular'? He was a bully and that is the >long and short of it. People did not befriend Harry because they "knew >Dudley" and did want the living daylights beat out of them is the basic gist >of what was said in that section. No where was he named as popular but >extensively named as a bully who several in his school feared. Well, I will say that most of the kids who bullied me growing up were the 'popular' kids, for sure. I don't like that to be the case, by any means, which is why I said 'not a great role model to show that the mean kid is the popular kid.' It happens a lot that the kid who picks on others becomes the person everyone wants to befriend, if for no other reason than to stay on his/her good side. I think this is where Dudley falls. Mer From cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com Thu Jun 7 22:19:28 2001 From: cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com (cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 22:19:28 -0000 Subject: Phoenixes In-Reply-To: <9foll4+jhtq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9foulg+m6dl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20385 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Emma" wrote: > Christine querried: > >> I have a question for whoever wants to answer it. I was just > re-reading CoS and came to the part where Fawkes dies and is reborn. > Does it say anywhere, or does anyone have any theories on how often a > phoenix dies and is reborn?<< > > Greek mythology claims that only one phoenix can exist at a time. > After 500 years, the old phoenix makes his final nest in a volcano, > and is consumed by flame. From those ashes arises a new phoenix, who > will live for 500 years then repeat the process. The phoenix is > found in other cultures as well, most notably in Asia. I'm not well > versed in their legends regarding the fire bird, so if anyone has any > thoughts on that one, I'm all ears. > > ~Emma Emma- Wouldn't that have made the reborn Fawkes not really fawkes at all but an entirely different Phoenix. And Dumbledore sounded as if he had seen Fawkes almost dying before yet I don't think he is more than 150 years old? Hmm its very interesting how the least little details pop up at you when you re-read a book time after time. Thanks for the response. Christine From devika261 at aol.com Thu Jun 7 22:27:31 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:27:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20386 In a message dated 6/7/01 4:37:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, meboriqua at aol.com writes: > Someone mentioned that Dudley's upbringing is really the issue with > his weight. I completely agree. Petunia and Vernon Dursley are, IMO, > not very good parents. As mean as they are to Harry, they spoil > Dudley even more. He has been given no limits, no consequences, and > no real guidance of any kind for his behavior. I think parents who > allow their children to eat endlessly are abusive. It's a form of > neglect, because anyone as obese as Dudley is unhealthy and any normal > parent should see that. Insisting that "my child is not like that!" > when all evidence points to the contrary is doing an injustice to > one's child. > > JKR is clearly showing us the kind of parents the Dursleys are. His > weight is a way to physically show us how spoiled, gluttonous and > careless Dudley has become because that is how his parents raised him. > I understand that JKR's constant references to his weight are not the > nicest references, but his weight has become a symbol of how he was > raised. Had Dudley's parents said no more than just once or twice in > his life, he might not be the bullying, temper tantrum throwing 14 > year old he is now. I'm curious to see what will come of his diet. > I think you're right. In fact, so does JKR. IIRC, she said in a chat that she feels sorry for Dudley because she sees him as being abused just as much as Harry is, only in a different way. Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org Thu Jun 7 22:42:26 2001 From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:42:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20387 >Someone mentioned that Dudley's upbringing is really the issue with >his weight. I completely agree. Petunia and Vernon Dursley are, IMO, >not very good parents. As mean as they are to Harry, they spoil >Dudley even more. He has been given no limits, no consequences, and >no real guidance of any kind for his behavior. I think parents who >allow their children to eat endlessly are abusive. It's a form of >neglect, because anyone as obese as Dudley is unhealthy and any normal >parent should see that. Insisting that "my child is not like that!" >when all evidence points to the contrary is doing an injustice to >one's child. I think this is true for his behaviour, but my parents were excellent parents and I certainly had limits, etc, and I'm fat. I'm not spoiled or gluttonous. And then there's the question about his diet. His mother is making him diet (which is just as abusive as letting a child eat non-stop, if you ask me. Dieting for kids is a sure-fire way to make sure they stay fat their entire lives.) Maybe we'll get a better glimpse in OotP of where JKR was going with that. It's incredibly clear that the Dursleys are bad parents, but there are a zillion ways to show that without making so much of a statement on his weight. Mer From banjoken at optonline.net Thu Jun 7 22:50:42 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 22:50:42 -0000 Subject: Phoenixes In-Reply-To: <9foulg+m6dl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fp0g2+klue@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20388 > but an entirely different Phoenix. And Dumbledore sounded as if he > had seen Fawkes almost dying before yet I don't think he is more >than 150 years old? Phoenixes must work differently in JKR's world. I figure they must be reborn fairly often, because of Dumbledores reaction in CoS. Not only does he act as if he'd seen it before, but it seems to me that he's seen it probably many times. He says something to the effect of "I've been telling him for days he should just get on with it" (I don't have the book with me so I can't get the exact quote). This seems to indicate it's a normal thing for him, and he's used to it by that point. Ken From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 22:57:03 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat, was Re: Hagrid in Slytherin??? & in defense of Slytherin... In-Reply-To: <9flns5+t1sg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010607225703.61778.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20389 In PS/SS, chpater 6 Hagrid says he was. I don't know if people think this a reliable quote or not, since it immediately follows the bit about all dark wizards having been in Slytherin. "'There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know- Who was one.'" In Hagrid's defense, he should know; he was at school at the same time as Riddle. Anne I have a problem with that quote...because obviously it is an overstatement..or a major inconsistency on the part of JKR..my reasoning..at that point everyone still thought Sirius was a deatheater..and I think it's a reasonable assumption that Sirius was in Gryffindor...and not Slytherin..just my thoughts on that... Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 7 23:00:04 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 23:00:04 -0000 Subject: Release Date: (was: SPOILER: "OotP" In-Reply-To: <00d501c0ef50$9d677880$284e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <9fp11k+gfjc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20390 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" wrote: > Hun, the tentative release date is January, not another year. That's what, > seven months away, chill out, no need to sob. > What's your source for this? Neither Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or Scholastic are giving a release date (even a tentative one) for OotP. - CMC O foenix culprit! Ex nicklow malo comes mickelmassed bonum. - Joyce, Finnegans Wake (p. 23) From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 7 23:05:19 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 23:05:19 -0000 Subject: Rita Skeeter Bug-Brain (was: Rita Skeeter Bug) In-Reply-To: <9fon9o+5274@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fp1bf+efch@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20391 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" wrote: > Actually, this sentence does NOT speak of Animagi, but of witches or > wizards who are transfigured. (So Malfoy would have had the brain of > a Ferret when transfigured by Moody/Crouch). Yes, in re-reading, I see that you are absolutely right - obviously, I was using my bug-brain when I first read this passage. - CMC Save me from those therrble prongs! - Joyce, Finnegans Wake, p. 628 From saitaina at wizzards.net Thu Jun 7 23:07:25 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 16:07:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Release Date: (was: SPOILER: "OotP" References: <9fp11k+gfjc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007a01c0efa6$9e9ef100$704e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20392 Waldon Books, and the American publishers. I went about it sorta slyly by having my publisher ask a friend who works for Scholastic if they have a tentative date (the date they mark on they're calendars and hopes will be true) and She gave sometime in January as the current date though, she did say "It could be pushed back due to the movie taking up most of the author's time." ----- Original Message ----- From: Caius Marcius To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 4:00 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Release Date: (was: SPOILER: "OotP" > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" wrote: > > Hun, the tentative release date is January, not another year. > That's what, > > seven months away, chill out, no need to sob. > > > What's your source for this? Neither Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or > Scholastic are giving a release date (even a tentative one) for OotP. > > - CMC > > O foenix culprit! Ex nicklow malo comes mickelmassed bonum. > > > - Joyce, Finnegans Wake (p. 23) > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From saitaina at wizzards.net Thu Jun 7 23:09:50 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 16:09:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT References: Message-ID: <007c01c0efa6$f51e7f00$704e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20393 A. dieting is not bad for Dudley, Dudley needs to loose weight and cutting his normal Diet down to what he is eating is the quickest way to save his life. Besides, it's not Petunia's doing it's the school nurse. B. Are the Dursley's bad parents? or are they just blind to what's in front of them? I know MANY a parent who doesn't see that their child is a junvinal delinquent. I have seen it time and again when I was trying to help them ( I did volunteer work for kids at risk) and the parents refused or could not see what I was trying to show them. Now yes, that is a bit of bad parenting, but not completely horrible compared to what many children have to go through with they're parents. And even in Harry's case, they were afraid, they were doing what they thought was best to get rid of the magic. They teqnically did nothing that could get Harry taken away from them (he was feed, clothed and had a bed) and while it wasn't REALLY the best thing to do, it was all they knew to do. ----- Original Message ----- From: Meredith Wilson To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 3:42 PM Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT > > >Someone mentioned that Dudley's upbringing is really the issue with > >his weight. I completely agree. Petunia and Vernon Dursley are, IMO, > >not very good parents. As mean as they are to Harry, they spoil > >Dudley even more. He has been given no limits, no consequences, and > >no real guidance of any kind for his behavior. I think parents who > >allow their children to eat endlessly are abusive. It's a form of > >neglect, because anyone as obese as Dudley is unhealthy and any normal > >parent should see that. Insisting that "my child is not like that!" > >when all evidence points to the contrary is doing an injustice to > >one's child. > > I think this is true for his behaviour, but my parents were excellent > parents and I certainly had limits, etc, and I'm fat. I'm not spoiled or > gluttonous. And then there's the question about his diet. His mother is > making him diet (which is just as abusive as letting a child eat non-stop, > if you ask me. Dieting for kids is a sure-fire way to make sure they stay > fat their entire lives.) Maybe we'll get a better glimpse in OotP of where > JKR was going with that. It's incredibly clear that the Dursleys are bad > parents, but there are a zillion ways to show that without making so much of > a statement on his weight. > > Mer > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From blpurdom at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 23:14:33 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 16:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Phoenixes In-Reply-To: <9fofri+gra6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010607231433.28064.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20394 --- cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com wrote: > I have a question for whoever wants to answer it. I > was just > re-reading CoS and came to the part where Fawkes > dies and is reborn. > Does it say anywhere, or does anyone have any > theories on how often a > phoenix dies and is reborn? > > Christine > According to the Greek historian Herodotus (5th cent. B.C.E), the phoenix was a bird like an eagle, with red and gold plumage, and which inhabited Arabia. Only one could be alive at any time, and every 500 years it went to Heliopolis (city of the sun), constructed an altar, set fire to itself on it, and rose again, beautiful and young, from the ashes of the pyre. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 7 23:32:34 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 23:32:34 -0000 Subject: short introduction & lots of questions In-Reply-To: <9foanr+rpk6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fp2ui+pnh6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20395 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Demelza" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > > > Question 1: Can anybody tell me how a person becomes Minister of > > Magic? Because it is mentioned that e.g. Barty Crouch was believed > to > > be the next minitser, but after his son's trial and his wife's death > > his popularity went down and so, in the end, the lucky one was > > Cornelius fudge. But it is never made clear who nominates or elects > > the minister. (On the contrary, the Hogwarts Headmaster is obviously > > elected by the board of governors) > > > > It's never explained in the series. I assume it is based upon the UK's > parliamentary government and how they elect their officials. Actually > I wouldn't be terribly surprized if the Ministry of Magic is a part of > the UK government, since Fudge did inform the "muggle Minister" about > the Black escape from Azkaban implying that the muggle government is > aware of the magical population. An interesting idea, although I tend to doubt that the Ministers of Magic form a part of the Muggle governments. I think that it more likely that they comprise "separate but equal" (i.e., separate but unequal) powers. Nevertheless, we see at the Quidditch World Cup that the competing teams are very close to the Muggles nations (with a few necesary additions, such as Transylvania). The Irish and Bulgarian fans proudly wave the Muggle flags of their respective nations. - CMC Holy Saint Eiffel, the very phoenix!....A loss of Lordedward and a lack of sirphilip a surgeonet showeradown could suck more gargling bubbles out of the five lamps in Portterand's praise. - Finnegans Wake, p. 116 From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Fri Jun 8 00:00:12 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 00:00:12 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat, was Re: Hagrid in Slytherin??? & in defense of Slytherin... In-Reply-To: <20010607225703.61778.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fp4ic+jr0n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20396 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > In PS/SS, chpater 6 Hagrid says he was. I don't know if people > > think this a reliable quote or not, since it immediately follows > > the bit about all dark wizards having been in Slytherin. > > "'There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't > > in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one.'" In Hagrid's defense, he > > should know; he was at school at the same time as Riddle. > > I have a problem with that quote...because obviously it is an > overstatement..or a major inconsistency on the part of JKR..my > reasoning..at that point everyone still thought Sirius was a > deatheater..and I think it's a reasonable assumption that Sirius > was in Gryffindor...and not Slytherin..just my thoughts on that... Of course, Sirius wasn't bad either, and Hagrid should have known that too, afaik. I don't think it's an inconsistency on JKR's part, but perhaps a bit of hyperbole from Hagrid. ....Craig From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org Fri Jun 8 00:02:07 2001 From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:02:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20397 >A. dieting is not bad for Dudley, Dudley needs to loose weight and cutting >his normal Diet down to what he is eating is the quickest way to save his >life. Besides, it's not Petunia's doing it's the school nurse. Cutting his food intake to normal and making him exercise is not bad for him. Dieting (i.e. a quarter of grapefruit for breakfast) is. Not only is it bad for the heart (Dudley's and Harry's...) but it makes a person binge on the things they aren't allowed to have (i.e. ton tongue toffee, cake...). That's all I'm saying about dieting. For that matter, it could be bad for Harry later in life if he's not allowed to eat normally as a kid. Now I'm officially thinking too much about it! Mer From catherinesmith4 at home.com Fri Jun 8 00:12:36 2001 From: catherinesmith4 at home.com (Catherine Smith) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:12:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT References: <9fntn9+gbh2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <003401c0efaf$b9481c80$e7a4b118@phnx2.az.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20398 > it does raise important questions about the Dursleys and makes me > wonder about them, especially about their pasts. Petunia strikes me > as someone who was very lonely and maybe depressed before she got > married and had a baby. There is no evidence for that, but in the > beginning of PS/SS, that is just the impression I get. > > In PS/SS, Ch. 4, Petunia comes across as jealous and vindictive. She was jealous of Lily for gaining their parents' approval through being a witch (Petunia calls her a "freak"). Then she goes on to call Harry "abnormal" for having James and Lily as parents. I think that she's replaying her childhood through Dudley and Harry, but reversing it by treating Harry (Lily's son) badly while giving Dudley (her son) everything he wants, including (and especially) her approval of everything he does. From andromache815 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 07:33:36 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 21:33:36 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cho's behavior - Wormtail - Etc. References: <7d.16179121.284efa01@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20399 which brings up a question I have: Cho saw the faux dementors before Harry. She screamed and pointed down. Was that really a spontaneous reaction of fear? Or did she deliberately point down, hoping Harry would fall again and give her a clear shot at the Snitch? Jami The mere fact she could scream seems odd, considering that if it were a real dementor, she probably wouldn't have been able to. I doubt anyone could still fly if they were real. However, I don't think Cho is that evil, to hope that Harry would plummet to the ground and get injured. Melissa: My take on this is that Wormtail will sacrafice his own life to save Harry's in a later book, probably book 7. The only way to truly "make up" for his part in the murder of Lily and James is to die saving their son. Yes. I thought of this as well. Seems the obvious conclusion, given Dumbledore's statement about Harry being glad about saving him someday. Either that, or he'll kill Voldy, but I doubt he could do it. He'd probably die trying. Wanda: 4.For that trick alone they should have been expelled! They put another schoolmate at high risk of being injured or killed. That part really made me upset that they got off with only points taken away! Now now. Sirius nearly got Snape killed, but he wasn't expelled either. It's the same deal. Heck, maybe Gryffindor got off with only points taken away, too, which makes me question wizarding justice. Catherine: but what always surprised me was that Colin Creevey was actually looking through the lens of his camera when he saw the Basilisk. Why? Did he hear it slithering along and thought that he could hear something worth photographing? Did he see the basilisk from behind before it turned on him? I want to know! Both these hypotheses are plausible. And who wouldn't want to photograph a basilisk? It's a rare creature. I feel sorry for Creevey. Dave: IMHO, what we really need to worry about is what sides the various magical creatures will take -- the centaurs, the giant spiders, etc. And th en there's the snakes -- I've said in the past that if D sent Hagrid as an envoy to the giants, he should send Harry as an envoy to the snakes... Interesting thought. Snakes fascinate me, and they do seem to figure prominently with dark wizards. They might be useful on the side of light, perhaps as messengers or spies, as Voldy uses Nagini. I wonder if there's a need for antivenom in the wizarding world. Trina: Firstly, a clarification regarding the Grim ? is needed. *Of course* Harry sees Sirius, not a Grim. You know that; I know that; everyone who has read PoA in its entirety knows that. However, at *that* point in the story, before we know that Sirius Black is a big black dog who is hanging out in search of Peter/Scabbers, did you/Harry think that it was, indeed, the Grim? Oh, in that case, yeah, I did think it was the Grim. However, I doubted Harry would die, as the Grim is somewhat like a superstition. Catherine: he would not do anything to attain his own selfish ends. I would consider raising dragons and huge killer spiders to be self-serving...I can't blame him, though. I like Hagrid, and I love animals as much as he does. Still, his spiders almost killed Harry and Ron. Catherine: Hagrid is not a pureblood wizard - he is half and half, and also he is only half human. The Slytherins pride themselves on being pureblood, therefore I can't see that a half giant would be acceptable to them, or sorted into their house. And the obvious argument about Voldy being a half-blood. But I suppose half-blood Slyths are rare. I can see how Hagrid could be placed in Slytherin. Vicky From catherinesmith4 at home.com Fri Jun 8 00:25:48 2001 From: catherinesmith4 at home.com (Catherine Smith) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:25:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as vampire References: <9fn3b9+pthn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007201c0efb1$9102bee0$e7a4b118@phnx2.az.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20400 > > Snape is already quite the complex character. He has a bitter current > life, he doesn't appear to venture out anywhere, he was once a spy > and he may have resumed his double life, he has a dark past of > alliance with Voldemort, he's got a longstanding hatred of Harry's > father... why does JKR need to add vampirism to the pot? I mean, > really, how much can the poor guy deal with? I think he's got enough > characterization to build on as is. > > Lyda > Maybe Snape hates James ( and by extension, Harry,since he looks so much like his father) because he lost Lily to him...? Catherine From mlmnb at msn.com Fri Jun 8 01:25:14 2001 From: mlmnb at msn.com (mlmnb) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:25:14 -0400 Subject: Drumstrang location References: <991930876.2373.88242.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002f01c0efb9$e49f3080$a005183f@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20401 Thanks for pointing out the Hapsburg connection. Since these schools are a few centuries old (at least) it stands to reason that Durmstrang was at one time in the Austro-Hungarian empire. Take a look at the maps of Europe, cartographers were never out of work updating the boundaries that happened rather frequently in Europe. Hence, a person named "Berger", very German sounding, could actually have been born in Poland, died in Russia or a satellite country and never have moved from his original home. dane - ravenclaw ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 12:21 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 952 _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are 25 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Re: Re: Snape as vampire From: Dave Hardenbrook 2. PS/SS quotes From: Dave Hardenbrook 3. Re: Rita Skeeter Bug-Brain (was: Rita Skeeter Bug) From: buster at dnahelix.com 4. Re: Snape as vampire From: "Lyda Clunas" 5. Malfoy's Quidditch prank, was Re: Chapter 13 Summary From: Allyse at my-deja.com 6. Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? From: "Gaynor Thomas" 7. Grim, Kiss, Muggles/Wizards, Quidditch, Cho, Florence, Vampires, Ducks, Seekers From: "Amy Z" 8. Re: Re: FAT From: Magda Grantwich 9. Re: FAT From: "Amy Z" 10. Re: Vampire Info--rather long From: atypke at yahoo.com 11. Re: Vampire Info--rather long From: atypke at yahoo.com 12. Re: Snape and Hermione (was vampires) From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com 13. Re: Draco - Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com 14. correction From: "Amy Z" 15. Spells & Charms; the nature of magic From: "Amy Z" 16. Re: Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius From: hamster8 at hotmail.com 17. Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? From: meboriqua at aol.com 18. Re: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic From: meboriqua at aol.com 19. Re: Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" From: "Saitaina" 20. Re: FAT From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com 21. Re: Snape as vampire From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it 22. Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? From: "Demelza" 23. short introduction & lots of questions From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it 24. Re: Snape and Hermione (was vampires) From: "Lyda Clunas" 25. Re: Draco - Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:35:45 -0700 From: Dave Hardenbrook Subject: Re: Re: Snape as vampire At 08:49 PM 6/6/01 -0400, JamiDeise at aol.com wrote: >because a werewolf is a mere beast and a vampire is the epitome of undead >cool? They *do* sell blood-flavored lollies for vampires in Hogsmeade... -- Dave ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:46:09 -0700 From: Dave Hardenbrook Subject: PS/SS quotes Someone has asked for a couple of quotes, which as it turns out occur very close to each other in PS/SS: *** Hermione's remark about bravery over books and cleverness: "Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know." "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things -- friendship and bravery and -- oh Harry -- be careful!" *** And the other Snape = Bat simile we've had (so far): "But I thought -- Snape --" "Severus?" Quirrell laughed, and it wasn't his usual quivering treble, either, but cold and sharp. "Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't he? So useful to have him swooping around like an overgrown bat. Next to him, who would suspect p-p-poor, st-stuttering P-Professor Quirrell?" (Hmmm... Maybe he *is* a vampire... Could explain why Quirrell fears him, which I think he does -- I don't think Q was faking that part, at least not entirely...) -- Dave ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 04:53:16 -0000 From: buster at dnahelix.com Subject: Re: Rita Skeeter Bug-Brain (was: Rita Skeeter Bug) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" > > On the subject of Ms. Skeeter - how did she do all of that insider > reporting with the brain of a bug? JKR is pretty inconsistent about > this, but it is often implied that an Animagi lose at least some of > their human-level intellectual capabilities. Sirius Black fools the > Dementors by changing into a dog: "They could tell that my feelings > were less -- less human, less complex when I was a dog... but they > thought, of course, that I was losing my mind like everyone else in > there, so it didn't trouble them." Mr. Kennilworthy Whisp at the > beginning of QTA tells us that, "[The Animagi] who finds.. > [themselves] transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, having > a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go the > moment they take flight." > > OTOH, McGonagall seems fully aware in her feline guise, and > Pettigrew's squeaks and attempts to escape while in his Scabbers > identity certainly indicate he knows exactly what the score is. > Perhaps this has to do with the relatively larger mammalian brain. > But if a bat-Animagi can't even be expected to remember to go from > Point A to Point B, how much more limited is the near-microscopic > insect brain going to be in action? > > - CMC Here's a theory: Perhaps the 'intelligence level' of an Animagi in animal form could be relative to their skill of the transformation, so the better one is at the process the more one's intellect is retained. ITC, McGonagall and Skeeter might be better at the process than perhaps Sirius is. This could be one of the reasons why it is such a difficult skill to develop and would also make it more dangerous. If an untrained wizard attempted to turn into an animal and then only possessed the intellect of that creature (like a bug) then how would he or she know how to change back??? -Beau "Never trust anything that can think for itself,if you can't see where it keeps its brain." ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 05:27:05 -0000 From: "Lyda Clunas" Subject: Re: Snape as vampire Yes, well, I'm a little late to the party, but here's my two cents anyway. Koinonia wrote: >> When Snape took over the class, they were studying what I consider to be *lesser* creatures. I would imagine when the class got to werewolves and vampires they were finally getting to the *big* guys. After all, werewolves were at the very back of the book. Was the class moving at such a fast pace that they finally made it to vampires? They might have studied vampires to a lesser degree previously, however I would think it would take many lessons on how to deal with vampires. Plus I don't believe Lupin included any vampire stuff in that test he gave the class. It was *tit for tat*.<< About that Vampire essay... alright, I'm pretty sure the general theory that you Vampire-Snapefans have is that when Lupin rescues Harry from Snape's evil clutches after the Hogsmeade incident Lupin said his little line about the "Vampire essay" simply to get back at Snape for the little werewolf essay stunt. That they weren't necessarily studying it in class (at least, not in much depth) and it was just a kind of reserved warning or something of Lupin's. However... forget not that it couldn't have been just a simple warning of Lupin's, as Neville makes it obviously clear that the assigned essay was real. Page 276, PoA, American version: "Er-- not now-- I was going to the library and do that vampire essay for Lupin--" "I'll come with you!" Neville said brightly. "I haven't done it either!" So, the essay *was* really assigned. Which brings me to my next conclusion: If Hermione, who puts an insane amount effort into her homework, can figure out the truth about Lupin's lycanthropy from doing Snape's essay, then wouldn't she also be able to understand the truth about Snape's "Vampirism" from Lupin's essay? Now, I know you guys will contadict me with the usual excuses ("It's a potion he uses to conceal his symptoms!" and so on...) BUT, Lupin has a potion too, and it does not conceal all of his symptoms. I have my doubts that there is a cure-all potion for the symptoms of Vampirism (that greasy hair is not a side-effect, sorry) and therefore, it would seem to me that Hermione would be able to discover that Snape is not what he seems. Now, of course, Hermione could be protecting Snape's secret, like she did with Lupin, but even this I have my doubts upon. I think that Hermione, although she has that great reverence for teachers, would tell Harry and Ron the truth about Snape. Perhaps not right away, but I would think she definitely would in GoF when they are musing over what Snape did with his "first chance"... Snape is already quite the complex character. He has a bitter current life, he doesn't appear to venture out anywhere, he was once a spy and he may have resumed his double life, he has a dark past of alliance with Voldemort, he's got a longstanding hatred of Harry's father... why does JKR need to add vampirism to the pot? I mean, really, how much can the poor guy deal with? I think he's got enough characterization to build on as is. Lyda ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 06:28:34 -0000 From: Allyse at my-deja.com Subject: Malfoy's Quidditch prank, was Re: Chapter 13 Summary --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Robert Carnegie wrote: > >Malfoy and > >company specifically intended that Harry at the least > >be distracted and lose the game, and at the most be > >seriously injured. > > But _seeing_ Dementors isn't what affects Harry so badly - it's their, um, dementing-power. While that is certainly true, Malfoy has a very poor opinion of Harry. I would imagine that he sneeringly thinks that the mere sight of the Dementors would be enough to make Harry go to pieces. Remember, Harry has good reason to be affected more than others, but Malfoy doesn't know that (nor care). As far as he's concerned, Potter is a weakling. So while his ploy was doomed to failure, his intentions were certainly repulsive. Allyse ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:32:41 -0000 From: "Gaynor Thomas" Subject: Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" wrote: > This cover is indeed a fake as I have seen it in many contests It is part of the Harry Potter Galleries Book 5 cover contest at: http://www.hpgalleries.com/covercontest4.htm There's quite a few entries from different age-groups. Some are pretty cool! Gaynor ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 04:52:43 -0400 From: "Amy Z" Subject: Grim, Kiss, Muggles/Wizards, Quidditch, Cho, Florence, Vampires, Ducks, Seekers Warning: most of this post was written at 3 a.m. and is therefore prone to sarcasm, silliness and sheer illogic. >2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he >just imagining things? Neither. I think he really does see Crookshanks. I'm really surprised by how many listies think otherwise. Am I being naive? You who think it's the Grim, why do you? CMC wrote: >So how does having one's soul sucked out by a >Dementor affect one's afterlife spiritual status? My guess is that >the Kiss has a most unfavorable effect on same. I'll stick with >Death. It all comes down to what happens to your soul when you die. If it departs from your body but lives on in some way, that's very different from what happens to a Kissed person, whose soul is actually devoured. Shudder. If death causes the soul to disperse (i.e. if the soul can't exist separate from the body) then the net effect is the same either way. But I would still rather die than be Kissed, even if the death is the death of my soul as well. It's hard to think of a death worse than having one's soul forcibly sucked out while one relives one's worst moments of life. Robert wrote: >Species diverge, but the point at which two branches of a species become >two separate species is, I >propose, an arbitrarily drawn line. I don't want to offend anyone, >but I hear that it's a fact that most individual conjunctions between >sets of human genes aren't successful. Some taxonomic divisions are quite arbitrary, but the distinguishing line between species is relevant to this discussion: creatures within the same species can conceive fertile offspring, whereas creatures from different species cannot. (A horse and a donkey, two species, can conceive a mule, but the mule is sterile.) Or is this the distinction you're questioning? I don't understand your second sentence. Anyway, this is relevant because wizards and humans do have fertile offspring. Well, we assume they're fertile, since intermarriage has been going on a long time. It will certainly break a lot of fanfic hearts if Harry can't have kids. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: >I think that wizards and witches are able to use more of their brains (or >parts of their brains that >muggles can't use). I remember Amanda Lewinski (and others, too) >talking about how magic comes from the self, and stronger selves (or >focus) can result in magic without a wand. JKR has talked about magical ability as being like any other extraordinary ability--like being a great pianist or pitcher or painter. In that sense, wizards and witches do use "a part of their brain" that Muggles don't, but they don't necessarily have more capabilities overall. They have a talent that most people don't; so does Itzhak Perlman. Does that fit with what you're saying? David wrote: >Apart, maybe, from the first (I'm a little hazy) I'm pretty sure there is >*not one* Quidditch match which does not serve some plot purpose (I exclude >those where Harry is not there). I'm pretty sure you're right, with "The Quidditch Final" in PoA being the one account that doesn't convey any plot points except Gryffindor Wins the Cup. That one gives the most detailed account of the game itself and was the most boring for me (even though I do like sports and don't mind well-written descriptions of games, especially livened by Lee). I found it so thrilling and satisfying for Gryffindor to win at last that I would have felt cheated if JKR had put it "off-camera" ("On Saturday, Gryffindor beat Slytherin by just enough points to win the Quidditch Cup. Harry was very, very happy. On Sunday, he spent the entire day on his Divination homework"--please!). I haven't been so happy since the Mets won the Series. ::begs fellow New Englanders not to revoke her Red Sox fan privileges--I've repented, I swear!:: The very first game does serve a plot purpose; it's the one where Quirrell jinxes the broom. Jami wrote: >Cho saw the faux dementors before Harry. She screamed and pointed down. Was >that really a spontaneous reaction of >fear? Or did she deliberately point down, hoping Harry would fall again and >give her a clear shot at the Snitch? Interesting question. I am inclined to think of Cho as a consistently nice person, based on GF, but we don't know much about her. Maybe she's a conniving creep. Maybe she paid Malfoy et al to appear as Dementors. The plot thickens! Re: the elusive Florence as a professor: maybe she already is. We don't know the first name of Professors Possibly Female Sinistra, Vector, or--appropriately for a girl who hung out around the greenhouses--Sprout. (Florence Sprout, very botanical indeed.) Koinonia wrote: >Why can't JKR make up her own type of vampires? I think that is >the stumbling block for many people. If Snape does turn out to be a vampire, one reason Harry would be slow on the uptake is that he has the same Hollywood-induced misconceptions about vampires as we Muggles do, e.g. that they can't go out in the daylight. You'd think Hermione would have caught on by now, though. Or Ron, who would know about JKR-style vampires and who is inclined to believe anything bad about Snape. How about this: in JKR's universe, vampires can't lie. That's why Dumbledore knows he can trust Snape, and why the reason why is a matter between Prof. Snape and himself . . . This is fun! We can make up anything at all! Koinonia also wrote: >Let's talk about Krum. There has to be more to Krum than we know. I >have stated that before, as have others. In GoF it says; Harry had >never seen anyone fly like that; Krum hardly looked as though he was >using a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air that >he looked unsupported and weightless. >Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to >mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal people >can't swim in water like that. Red flag: Krum is actually a duck. Terrific flyer, swims in water too cold for humans, and (the capper) is duck-footed. Catherine wrote: >One thing strikes me however - isn't it strange that 3 out of 4 champions >are >seekers? I noticed this too. And at the Yule Ball, of the eight people who are champions or dates thereof, six are Quidditch players. Amy Z -------------------------------------------- The clock on Lupin's wall . . . had twelve divisions, ranging from Sound Asleep to Murderous Intent And No Human Conscience. -Amanita Lestrange, "Fool's Paradise" -------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 02:20:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Magda Grantwich Subject: Re: Re: FAT Dudley's weight and Harry's skinniness are metaphors for the way they are treated by the Dursley's: Dudley is stuffed full of good things like his favourite foods and toys and gadgets while Harry gets by with the bare essentials to sustain life and lives under the stairs. It's not a weight issue per se but rather an abundance one. Kids reading the book get the symbolism right away. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 05:30:44 -0400 From: "Amy Z" Subject: Re: FAT I don't think JKR portrays overweight people unkindly overall. There are a couple of characters who are described as fat in whom it is not in any way tied to their character: Bagman (GF 7), Neville (PS/SS 9). I don't have any problem with these descriptions, and they create an overall sense that some characters are thin, some are fat, and nothing is to be imputed to characters based on this aspect of their looks. However. I really, really dislike JKR's obsession with Dudley's weight. It is not that he's a jerk; Draco's thin and he's a worse jerk--JKR is an equal-opportunity insulter. It has to do with the way she mentions his weight so often, like a little child who can't talk about an overweight classmate without mentioning his weight in every other sentence. (Grownups do this too, heaven knows. People who do not feel the need to describe an acquaintance as "short" or "redheaded" every time they mention her seem unable to stop saying "overweight" or "big" or "heavy." Is it just the US, or are people everywhere unable to see past fat?) A case in point: CoS chapter one. "'I know what day it is,' sang Dudley, waddling towards him." A few lines later: "Dudley hitched up his trousers, which were slipping down his fat bottom." A few lines after that: "Dudley stumbled backwards at once, a look of panic on his fat face." Why his =fat= bottom? Why his =fat= face? We don't hear about Ron's freckled face or Hermione's bucktoothed smile on a regular basis. This was my very first experience of HP, and it's a wonder I got through it. I was thinking, geez, I really like this book, but what is this woman's problem? I could give more examples from the other books, but this is the worst scene. One more However: As Saitaina wrote, we are seeing Dudley through Harry's eyes. I can cut JKR some slack because I can imagine that Harry, who, being noble and Practically Perfect, wouldn't judge someone based on his weight, is nevertheless so filled with justified loathing for Dudley that he thinks about him in insults. I can almost convince myself that we're getting Harry's viewpoint here, not JKR's. Almost. Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------------- "Do you mean ter tell me," he growled at the Dursleys, "that this boy--this boy!--knows nothin' abou'--about ANYTHING?" Harry thought this was going a bit far. -HP and the Philosopher's Stone --------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:43:50 -0000 From: atypke at yahoo.com Subject: Re: Vampire Info--rather long --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" wrote: > > From 1730-35 Hungary, the Balkans, Poland, Bulgaria (!) and > > Bohemia (now the Czech Republic) had a Vampire Epidemic> > > The word "vampire" comes from the Slavic word obyri or obiri, which > > evolved into the Bulgarian(!) word "vampir". > > > Where is Durmstrang? Could it be somewhere around Romania, Poland, > Bulgaria? Seems to be very close to areas that are filled with > vampire folklore. > > Krum's father spoke in Bulgarian. > Durmstrang is described as being in a cold climate. Both Bulgaria and Romania have rather mild-to-mediterranean climates. Wine is produced in both countries, for example. I'm not really sure Poland would be cold enough either - how about Russia, Ukraine, or the Slavic Baltics? Agatha, who finally quit lurking. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:50:27 -0000 From: atypke at yahoo.com Subject: Re: Vampire Info--rather long > > Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to > mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal people > can't swim in water like that. > Swimming in ice cold water is a custom in Russia and the Ukraine (don't know about Belorus). I think they particularly do this around Easter. I lived in Poland for a few years on a study abroad thing, and every year the news would show "what those crazy russians" were doing. If Durmstrang is in fact in the cold north eastern slavic countries, then Krum's behaviour wouldn't be all that strange. Agatha ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:06:37 -0000 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Subject: Re: Snape and Hermione (was vampires) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" wrote: > So, the essay *was* really assigned. Which brings me to my next > conclusion: If Hermione, who puts an insane amount effort into her > homework, can figure out the truth about Lupin's lycanthropy from > doing Snape's essay, then wouldn't she also be able to understand the > truth about Snape's "Vampirism" from Lupin's essay? > Now, of course, Hermione could be protecting Snape's secret, like she > did with Lupin, but even this I have my doubts upon. I think that > Hermione, although she has that great reverence for teachers, would > tell Harry and Ron the truth about Snape. Perhaps not right away, but > I would think she definitely would in GoF when they are musing over > what Snape did with his "first chance"... > > Snape is already quite the complex character. He has a bitter current > life, he doesn't appear to venture out anywhere, he was once a spy > and he may have resumed his double life, he has a dark past of > alliance with Voldemort, he's got a longstanding hatred of Harry's > father... why does JKR need to add vampirism to the pot? I mean, > really, how much can the poor guy deal with? I think he's got enough > characterization to build on as is. > > Lyda While agree with your general comments about characterisation, I think Hermione might keep Snape's secret secret - because of the prejudice issue. I'm guessing that vampires are generally hated and feared by wizards - the note in FB about the centaurs is a clue. Hermione might then adopt a similar attitude to the one she has about giants and cut Snape a lot of slack (as well as realising after GOF that a word in the wrong place might blow a hole in Dumbledore's strategy). If Snape is a vampire, then this puts his ignoring of Hermione's sudden tooth growth in a different light: to comment on the length of her teeth would be a racist remark (or possibly his anti-fang, sunlight protection potion has some odd side effects on his vision). Finally, his task at the end of GOF would be to get the vampires on side with Dumbledore. This could be scary if joining the wizards is seen as a betrayal by the 'vampiring community' at large. David, now seiously worried that Snape might trip and fall on the point of his wand ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:42:33 +0200 From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com Subject: Re: Draco - Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius Saitaina wrote: >Each of these quotes point to the dangerous behavior of a bullying child. >That in itself is really a bigger issue then his weight. That bullying will >stay with him in life and later endanger his own children. Draco Malfoy is >not the only one indager having having the SCF (Services to Children and >Families) or the British equvilent called on him to remove a child from his >care in this series and it's very sad, and disturbing to see people refer to >such behavior as popularity. While I'm not a Draco apologist, I really do not understand this. Draco exhibits his bullying behavior towards the people he considers inferior to him. While his mental processes are definitely warped (at this time- I like the redemption scenario), this doesn't mean he cannot be genuinely devoted to his family. Actually, that's my take on Lucius, too. (Well, not completely. No redemption for him.) Koinonia quotes from: >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub wrote: > > > > > One could also look at this linguistically. While > > Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm > > und Drang, a literary movement advocating the > > abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German > > relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. > > This suggests a closer connection to Russia and > > Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a > > later development. To me, it doesn't not seem > > immediately logical that Slavic students would accept > > learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance, > > when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to > > justify one or more schools on their own I wouldn't be so sure. The Habsburghs have a lot to answer for. Vienna was the center for much of Central and Eastern Europe, and for a long time. Consequently, German was the primary foreign language learned in those regions (Now it's English) I have a question regarding the friendship between Karkaroff and Lucius. It is not clear to me when it started exactly. If it was during their Death Eating days, than why Igor didn't rat on him, as well. Igor did seem pretty desperate to deliver as many names as possible. Another possibility is that they met elsewhere (possibly at Hogwarts, Igor does say something like "good to be back" when he arrives there in GoF) and that Igor knew nothing about Lucius' involvement. Also, I think that Lucius wouldn't want to associate too much with someone who is on Voldemort's hit list and a security risk (Not quite slippery enough). Does anyone have any ideas? Vlatka _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:40:43 -0000 From: "Amy Z" Subject: correction I wrote: > Anyway, this is relevant because wizards and humans do have fertile > offspring. I meant "wizards and Muggles." My slip rather undermined my point. ;-) Amy Z ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 11:31:16 -0000 From: "Amy Z" Subject: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic Spells & Charms; the nature of magic Here it is at long last. Thanks for your patience, everybody. Not one person sent me a Howler. This piece is not about the class Charms, since that's an upcoming topic, and I've left aside the vexing question of the difference between Charms and Transfiguration (e.g. why are winged keys a Charm and giant moving chesspieces are a Transfiguration?) because it seems to fit in better there. Rather, I'm looking at Charms in the general sense, as a synonym for spells, that is, magic in general. I also haven't posed any questions; all of the below is my opinion and meant to stimulate discussion, counter-examples, and alternative theories. What I really wanted to write was a lyrical ode to magic such as Snape likes to deliver to his first-years. I also wanted to compare JKR's vision of magic to other authors'. However, I haven't the lyrical talent of a Severus Snape nor the Comparative Magical Theories background of many other list members. I urge those who have observed interesting differences between the rules and nature of magic in the Potterverse and others to take this discussion in that direction, by all means. One point I do notice is that unlike in some books, magic in HP is not a matter of wishes or anything so simple; perhaps the characters in books that feature this kind of magic have gotten a hold of a wizard-Charmed object so that for them, all they have to do is make a wish and magical things begin to occur. In JKR's universe, and this is in fact the very basis for the books, which are structured around an educational system, magic is a talent but also a discipline--a technology that one can master only with a great deal of study and hard work. There are other magical universes in which a school for witchcraft and wizardry would be an odd concept. JKR doesn't spend much time giving us Magical Theory (maybe Adalbert Waffling's book will be the next Schoolbook to be released if we ask very nicely); we have to draw our own conclusions from the spells we see. Magic has its own laws. It doesn't have to fit physics or any other system we know, but it has to be internally consistent. We can believe in an Invisibility Cloak, but if there are then cases where it doesn't work, we require a plausible a reason why (e.g. a magical eye, or powers unknown but believable, such as Dumbledore's as-yet-unexplained ability to see through it). We can believe that one can conjure useable items out of thin air ("hundreds of squashy purple sleeping bags" [PA 9], "heavy manacles" [PA 19]), but there must then be a consistent reason why the Weasleys can't simply conjure up all the things that usually require money (and good theories do abound, which I won't detail here). Even though the laws of magic in the HP universe are seldom made explicit, they have a high level of internal consistency; if they did not, we would be finding holes in every chapter instead of the occasional "how does the Fidelius Charm work, exactly?" that surfaces. Some of the laws seem to be: -The world is full of naturally-occurring magic aside from that created by humans. There are magical plants (mandrakes, Devil's Snare, etc. etc.) and animals (dozens; see FB) as well as magical people. Whether there are any naturally-occurring magical objects is unknown; the books are filled with magical objects, but most seem to be enchanted (e.g. flying Ford Anglia) or created (e.g. the Philosopher's Stone) by humans. There are many whose magical properties may be human in origine or not (crystal balls, the Mirror of Erised). If anyone can identify an object that we know for a fact doesn't get its magical properties from humans, please do. -It is not possible to bring the dead back to life (GF 36) -Less definitively, it is not possible to re-ensoul victims of a Dementor's Kiss (PA 12) Spells, at least some of them, behave like physical energy, with forces, counterforces, and vectors much like those seen in physical objects. A spell can be "deflected" and "rebound," as Voldemort's attempted Avada Kedavra against Harry in 1981 did (GF 33). Two spells can collide like billiard balls: "Jets of light shot from both wands, hit each other in midair, and ricocheted off at angles--Harry's hit Goyle in the face, and Malfoy's hit Hermione" (GF 18). The storm of Stunning spells that the Ministry wizards send over Harry, Ron, and Hermione's heads in the wood after the World Cup create a wind that ripples their hair. Making magic uses energy as well. "[H]is Patronus was too feeble to drive the Dementor away. All it did was hover, like a semi-transparent cloud, draining Harry of energy as he fought to keep it there" (PA 12). Likewise, there are certain basic elements of magic that are a matter of mechanics: pronouncing words correctly (otherwise, you might end up with a buffalo on your chest, PS/SS 10), learning wrist movements (PS/SS 10), adding Potions ingredients in just the right proportions (PA 7) and at the right times (PS/SS 8). A wand is necessary for most magic. However, magic is far more than mechanics. * * * * * "But that was the easy part, I'm afraid. You see, the word alone is not enough." --Professor Lupin, PA 7 The words are just one ingredient of a spell, and there is only so much magic one can learn from books. An intangible and crucial element of most spells is intention, which can even make words unnecessary. Some wand-spells seem not to require an incantation at all (e.g. Snape conjuring up ropes, PA 19; the rope-ends fly to him with a click of his fingers), though this may just be Rowling tiring of coming up with a pithy quasi-Latin term every time someone waves a wand. "Accio" is enough to Summon whatever one is thinking of, without the noun; Molly Summons the Ton-Tongue Toffees (GF 6) and Harry the Triwizard Cup (GF 34) this way. For that matter, intention is key even when one does speak the noun; otherwise, "Accio Firebolt" would bring every Firebolt in the world that isn't nailed down, but it doesn't; it only brings the one Harry is thinking of, his own. Even charmed objects will respond more or less strongly depending on the intention of the wizard; Neville's broom does not at first respond to "Up!" while Harry, who is a natural flier, is unafraid of heights, and has been "looking forward to learning to fly more than anything else," gets an instantaneous response (PS/SS 9). Although Harry's speculation that brooms, like horses, can sense fear may be tongue in cheek, it is true that Neville's feelings do not match his words, and his intention to keep his feet on the ground appears to hamper his ability to command the broom. An ability to concentrate one's mind under stress is therefore very important to making magic. * * * * * "Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know." "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things -- friendship and bravery and . . ." --PS/SS 17 Another necessary element of many spells is, for lack of a more precise word, character. In some cases the personal element needed is some kind of experience, as with Harry's struggles to find a memory that is happy enough to make the Patronus incantation effective, since it "will work only if you are concentrating, with all your might, on a single, very happy memory" (PA 12). In others it is a personal quality such as the independence and will power that enable Harry to resist the Imperius Curse appears to stem from his independence and will power. Less nobly, Harry is stubborn, which also stands him in good stead. His inner voice balks at doing something as pointless as jumping onto the desk just on Moody's say-so: "Stupid thing to do, really . . . . I don't think I will, thanks" (GF 15). Perhaps some spells require downright evil characteristics; for example, perhaps only those who can call upon an inner reserve of sadism can successfully cast the Cruciatus. The intricate interaction of magic and character is crucial to JKR's universe; she is writing about Harry's development, not only into a practitioner of magic, but into adulthood, and his adventures are as much explorations of human experience and emotion and his own deepening character as magical exploits. Otherwise the books would not be nearly so enchanting (pun intended). Finally, magic requires innate magical ability. It may be that Muggles could wave wands and order broomsticks, "up!" without the slightest response. Some magical objects respond to Muggles--hence the necessity of the Muggle Protection Act, to protect unwary Muggles from enchanted objects such as sugar tongs that will clamp on their noses (CS 3, 4). But others, surely, respond only to a wizard/witch, or else there would be no difference between Muggles and magical folk. However, "wands and magical ability" is an upcoming topic, so I'll leave it at that. * * * * * "Take it, or I'll hex you. I know some good ones now." --Harry, GF 37 A brief note on hexes, jinxes, and curses. One can hex/jinx/curse both people and objects. Just like "spell" and "charm," these terms for "not very nice spell" seem to be used more or less interchangeably, though "curse" is generally reserved for very destructive spells such as the Unforgivable Curses. "Jinx" may have a light tone to the Muggle ear (it does to mine), but McGonagall uses the term to describe the things she fears Sirius Black might have done to Harry's Firebolt (PA 11), such as a "Hurling Hex" (PA 12), which are far from playful. So . . . your thoughts? Amy Z ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 11:31:34 -0000 From: hamster8 at hotmail.com Subject: Re: Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius Wow ... I actually have stuff to say! *Al delurks in a shower of purple sparks* Christian Stub - "One could also look at this linguistically. While Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm und Drang, a literary movement advocating the abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. This suggests a closer connection to Russia and Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a later development. To me, it doesn't not seem immediately logical that Slavic students would accept learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance, when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to justify one or more schools on their own " Me - I mentally located it in Norway, I have to say. There is some point in GoF (I think on the Hogwarts Express where 'our gang' overhear Draco drawling to himself) where Harry imagines throwing Draco off a glacier, or something of that ilk. To my mind, where else in Europe are there glaciers? Switzerland doesn't really seem right. But then again, my knowledge of the Carpathians is very limited, and who's to say Durmstrang might not be as far away as the Caucasus Mountains, or even the Urals. I have to admit, I find JK's Germanic/Slavic fusion quite confusing. Then again, perhaps I should consider that the books are fiction, and JK probably didn't expect us to pick up on it (this = my standard explanation for anything in HP that defies explanation, like the missing 24 hours thingie) Of course, Hogwarts was surrounded by very tall mountains, and JK's descriptions certainly don't (to my mind, others may disagree) make it sound like it is located in a part of the UK that exists to Muggles; Scotland at a pinch, but in my experience the Highlands aren't rugged enough to be in Hogwarts' neighbourhood. Perhaps Durmstrang is likewise in some sort of 'magical dimension' kind of thing. Vlatka - "I have a question regarding the friendship between Karkaroff and Lucius. It is not clear to me when it started exactly. If it was during their Death Eating days, than why Igor didn't rat on him, as well. Igor did seem pretty desperate to deliver as many names as possible. Another possibility is that they met elsewhere (possibly at Hogwarts, Igor does say something like "good to be back" when he arrives there in GoF) and that Igor knew nothing about Lucius' involvement. Also, I think that Lucius wouldn't want to associate too much with someone who is on Voldemort's hit list and a security risk (Not quite slippery enough)." Lucius did evade Azkaban, of course. Perhaps neither of them were aware the other was a Death Eater. IIRC they wore masks most of the time when together ... would it be *too* difficult to remain quite anonymous? P'raps Igor didn't grass up Lucius because they already were great friends - Igor knew Lucius was free, and knew that if he gave the name of a man who had managed to escape Azkaban, Lucius would come and hunt him down *if* and when Igor was released, (which, obviously, he was). Lucius certainly won't want to associate with Igor in future installments (if JK keeps the characters 'in play' so to speak) because Igor didn't Apparate immediately to Voldemort's side in the graveyard at Little Hangleton. Al *medics cuff Al, and drag him screaming back to lurkdom* ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 17 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:04:52 -0000 From: meboriqua at aol.com Subject: Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? I have seen this cover beofre - quite a few months ago, actually. I also read somewhere (can't remember where) that this cover is already the cover of another, older book. Sorry to be so vague, but I can't imagine that JKR would allow the cover of OoP to be released when the book itself won't be out for *sob* another year! --jenny from ravenclaw********************************************* ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 18 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:47:52 -0000 From: meboriqua at aol.com Subject: Re: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > Another necessary element of many spells is, for lack of a more > precise word, character.> and character is crucial to JKR's universe; she is writing about > Harry's development, not only into a practitioner of magic, but into > adulthood, and his adventures are as much explorations of human > experience and emotion and his own deepening character as magical > exploits. Otherwise the books would not be nearly so enchanting (pun intended)>. > Great comments! What you wrote is pretty much what I, too think of magic in HP's world. I snipped the comments about magic ability, development and character because that is something I have noticed throughout the books so far. The more powerful the wizard/witch, the more and better magic they are able to perform. In GoF, when BC Sr. is delirious and goes into his memories, he mentions that his son received a nice number of O.W.L.S. I thought this was an important tidbit, because it helped convince me, later, that Crouch Jr. was truly able to impersonate Moody for so long. He had obviously been an excellent student at Hogwarts (much like Hermione, I imagine) who took his studies very seriously. He was clearly a powerful wizard (especially being able to fight the Imperius Curse and remember all of his magic after his stay in Azkaban). As for Harry, his abilities are getting stronger and more precise each year he is in school, regardless of his grades (I don't think he spends even a fraction of the time studying that Hermione does). We know already how much character Harry has because he has managed, for the most part, to come out of the Dreadful Dursleys' home relatively unscathed. He even has quite a bit of confidence in himself, if not a good deal of pride (as Crouch Jr. mentions to him about Harry not asking for help with the 2nd Task). I believe all of these things play a part in his abilities in magic. I really like how JKR doesn't make magic limitless, like in the "Sabrina, the Teenage Witch" series. There are laws and serious consequences for breaking them. If there weren't, there'd be many more Voldie types running around, IMO. For example, if everyone could Apparate, that's all anyone would ever do, as well as do a little Imperius action if one wanted the object of his/her affectins to respond. I could go on and on, but I won't. Thanks again for the great post! --jenny from ravenclaw********************************************* ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 19 Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 05:51:46 -0700 From: "Saitaina" Subject: Re: Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" Hun, the tentative release date is January, not another year. That's what, seven months away, chill out, no need to sob. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 5:04 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? > I have seen this cover beofre - quite a few months ago, actually. I > also read somewhere (can't remember where) that this cover is already > the cover of another, older book. > > Sorry to be so vague, but I can't imagine that JKR would allow the > cover of OoP to be released when the book itself won't be out for > *sob* another year! > > --jenny from ravenclaw********************************************* > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 20 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:57:13 -0000 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Subject: Re: FAT This really bothered me too, especially when I was reading GoF. That was when Dudley was forced on a diet, and when the twins played a prank on him with the toffee. I thought Harry was awful for laughing at him then (at least, it keeps us knowing that he's not perfect.) Well I hope JKR is going somewhere with this fat thing. I believe her point here is to criticize the parenting that he has received from the Dursleys. She's said in an interview that she really feels sorry for Dudley; that in some ways, he's had just as scarred a childhood as Harry. Look at him - he's a bully, he's a glutton. Dudley is portrayed as a spoiled kid (doesn't McGonagall say he was screaming for sweets in the beginning of PS/SS - and that's when he was a really small child!) before Harry comes along, or I might suggest that this has something to do with the Dursleys treating Dudley better than Harry out of spite. As some other people have mentioned, I don't think this will affect overweight children (I hope not) but it does raise important questions about the Dursleys and makes me wonder about them, especially about their pasts. Petunia strikes me as someone who was very lonely and maybe depressed before she got married and had a baby. There is no evidence for that, but in the beginning of PS/SS, that is just the impression I get. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 21 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:46:46 -0000 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Subject: Re: Snape as vampire --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > At 08:49 PM 6/6/01 -0400, JamiDeise at a... wrote: > >because a werewolf is a mere beast and a vampire is the epitome of undead > >cool? > > They *do* sell blood-flavored lollies for vampires in Hogsmeade... > > > > -- Dave Sorry, Dave, but that's not really correct: They sell blood-flavoured lollies, but it's Hermione who thinks Harry wouldn't like them an supposes they are for Vampires. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 22 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:50:35 -0000 From: "Demelza" Subject: Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover? --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > The fake cover seems to suggest a desire for the Fab Three to > acquire an (illegal?) flying carpet.... Might there be something in > this? It *does* come up in GoF... > The cover has an interesting concept nonetheless. The phoenix, erupting like an atomic bomb-mushroom cloud, over what looks like a city of tents and three figures on a flying carpet zooming away, very "Enola Gay"-ish. Demelza. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 23 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:06:11 -0000 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Subject: short introduction & lots of questions Hi, everybody, first I have to make an apologetical auto- presentation: I'm an Austrian (NOT having voted Haider, just to get things straight) currently living in Italy, so please everybody forgive me if my English is not quite up to your standards. Anyway: This is my first day in this group and I'm quite thrilled writing this message. Question 1: Can anybody tell me how a person becomes Minister of Magic? Because it is mentioned that e.g. Barty Crouch was believed to be the next minitser, but after his son's trial and his wife's death his popularity went down and so, in the end, the lucky one was Cornelius fudge. But it is never made clear who nominates or elects the minister. (On the contrary, the Hogwarts Headmaster is obviously elected by the board of governors) Question 2: Who on earth had the idea that snape might be a Vampire? he most certainly would need a shrink, as he's suffering from a very bad inferiority complex, but a Vampire.... Question 3: How will, in your opinion, continue the relationship between Hermione and duck-footed Viktor Krum? because he seems much more interested in her than she in him. Well, that's enough for the moment. Pigwidgeon37 ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 24 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:15:19 -0000 From: "Lyda Clunas" Subject: Re: Snape and Hermione (was vampires) David wrote: > While agree with your general comments about characterisation, I > think Hermione might keep Snape's secret secret - because of the > prejudice issue. I'm guessing that vampires are generally hated > and feared by wizards - the note in FB about the centaurs is a > clue. Hermione might then adopt a similar attitude to the one she > has about giants and cut Snape a lot of slack (as well as realising > after GOF that a word in the wrong place might blow a hole in > Dumbledore's strategy). Good point. I suppose it's possible; Hermione is a pretty mature girl. However, we don't see *any* indication at all that she knows something about Snape. We did see an indication with Lupin. Has she suddenly become a better secret-keeper? I can't say. But I'm still anti-Vampire!Snape nonetheless. > If Snape is a vampire, then this puts his ignoring of Hermione's > sudden tooth growth in a different light: to comment on the length > of her teeth would be a racist remark (or possibly his anti-fang, > sunlight protection potion has some odd side effects on his vision). So, your saying that he says "I see no difference" because he doesn't want to be racist? Forgive the snort (*snort*), but if he didn't want to appear to be making an off-color remark that might implicate him, why couldn't he just say "Hospital wing" and leave it at that? > Finally, his task at the end of GOF would be to get the vampires on > side with Dumbledore. This could be scary if joining the wizards > is seen as a betrayal by the 'vampiring community' at large. This I have considered. In fact, this is the only thing about the entire Vampire theory that I like, because it's a plausible idea on what Snape is actually does that fateful evening. However, it's still not enough to convert me to support the Vampire idea. Snape may be a lot of nasty things, but I'm also quite convinced that he's very very human, as well. > David, now seiously worried that Snape might trip and fall on the > point of his wand LOL, what an undignified way to die! :) Lyda ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 25 Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:20:21 -0000 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Subject: Re: Draco - Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius Hi,Vlatka, as to Malfoy- karkaroff: That those two are friends (if Lucius malfoy can be somebody's friend, which I strongly doubt), is something Draco says when talking to Crabbe and Goyle on the train. And Ron deducts that they met at the Quidditch World- Cup. Of course, they met much earlier, being both of them Death Eaters. Lucius M. would not have wanted to send his son to Durmstrang because he was such a good friend of Karkaroff's, but because there, he would have thorougly learned the Dark Arts, not only defence against them. And don't forget that the desire to send Draco there goes back to the period of book 1, where the resurrection of Voldemort was not as palpable as in book 4- so being associated with somebody on voldemort's hit list wouldn#t have been as embarrassing as in book 4. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., zora_djevojka at y... wrote: > > Saitaina wrote: > > > >Each of these quotes point to the dangerous behavior of a bullying child. > >That in itself is really a bigger issue then his weight. That bullying will > >stay with him in life and later endanger his own children. Draco Malfoy is > >not the only one indager having having the SCF (Services to Children and > >Families) or the British equvilent called on him to remove a child from his > >care in this series and it's very sad, and disturbing to see people refer to > >such behavior as popularity. > > While I'm not a Draco apologist, I really do not understand this. Draco > exhibits his bullying behavior towards the people he considers inferior to > him. While his mental processes are definitely warped (at this time- I like > the redemption scenario), this doesn't mean he cannot be genuinely devoted > to his family. Actually, that's my take on Lucius, too. (Well, not > completely. No redemption for him.) > > Koinonia quotes from: > > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub wrote: > > > > > > > > One could also look at this linguistically. While > > > Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm > > > und Drang, a literary movement advocating the > > > abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German > > > relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic. > > > This suggests a closer connection to Russia and > > > Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a > > > later development. To me, it doesn't not seem > > > immediately logical that Slavic students would accept > > > learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance, > > > when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to > > > justify one or more schools on their own > > I wouldn't be so sure. The Habsburghs have a lot to answer for. Vienna was > the center for much of Central and Eastern Europe, and for a long time. > Consequently, German was the primary foreign language learned in those > regions (Now it's English) > > > > I have a question regarding the friendship between Karkaroff and > Lucius. It is not clear to me when it started exactly. If it was during > their Death Eating days, than why Igor didn't rat on him, as well. Igor did > seem pretty desperate to deliver as many names as possible. > Another possibility is that they met elsewhere (possibly at Hogwarts, Igor > does say something like "good to be back" when he arrives there in GoF) and > that Igor knew nothing about Lucius' involvement. > > Also, I think that Lucius wouldn't want to associate too much with someone > who is on Voldemort's hit list and a security risk (Not quite slippery enough). > > Does anyone have any ideas? > > > Vlatka > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From bohners at pobox.com Fri Jun 8 01:33:17 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:33:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chesterton on Voldemort? References: <9fmeeh+e384@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <0be801c0efbb$0c0438e0$b339acce@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20402 > Thanks for letting us know that - as a long-time Chesterton fan, I > didn't know we could number JKR in our company. Apparently her name's on the roster of the GKC Society, or so a Society member told me. > Did the essay which included this quote identify which GKC book it sprang from? I found it in G.K. CHESTERTON: A SELECTION FROM HIS NON-FICTIONAL PROSE (selected by W.H. Auden, London, Faber, 1970). Sorry, didn't look up the original source, other than to note that it was part of an essay on Dickens. > Voldemort exists as a touchstone of magical world's moral character. > How does one react to the powers of evil and oppression? Some with > enthusiastic allegience (Barty Crouch, Jr., Draco Malfoy), some with > craven submission (Wormtail), some with denial (Cornelius Fudge). > Some - ignoring Nietzsche's admonition that those who fight dragons > must guard against becoming dragons themselves - descend to the same > tactics employed by the forces of evil (Barty Crouch, Sr., perhaps to > a lesser extent the real Mad-Eye Moody). But others will oppose it > with a clear-minded resolution (Dumbledore), with stoic patience > (Black, perhaps Hagrid), or with valor and heroism (Harry). A fascinating and thought-provoking summary -- thank you. So where does Snape fit in nowadays? With those who've ignored Nietzsche's warnings? But then, why does Dumbledore trust Snape so much and appear to be allowing him free rein to behave like a "dragon" at Hogwarts? Is Dumbledore a little less "clear-minded" than we've been led to believe, or is Snape a lot more so? -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From tmayor at mediaone.net Fri Jun 8 02:22:16 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 02:22:16 -0000 Subject: FAT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fpcso+he1n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20403 Saitaina wrote: Having Dudley grotesquely obese and having Harry a skinny rail is a great difference between the treatment of the two of them that a seven year old could easily pick up on. And Magda wrote: It's not a weight issue per se but rather an abundance one. Kids reading the book get the symbolism right away. But Meredith wrote: kids don't need many excuses to see 'Dudley is gluttonous and selfish and so he's fat. Johnny is fat, too, so he must be selfish and gluttonous, I bet he's a bad person, like Dudley.' I read my 7-yr-old all four books twice--including straight through the Cedric death scene and Harry torture scene without leaving out a single word--and I can say the ton-tongue toffee chapter was the single hardest thing I had to get through. He didn't think it was funny, and I didn't either, but out on the playground, it's still "Dudley is fat and he's stupid and we hate him and you're a Dudley." And I'm talking about a bunch of kids who have already had enough sensitivity curriculum to double as canaries in coal mines! IMO the Dudley scenes are hands-down the weakest writing in the books and I sure hope JKR takes a different tack with him next time out. Anyone who can make werewolves, convicted murderers and former death- eaters appealing ought to be able to do better than to demonize fat kids. ~Rosmerta who's realizing she has a pretty strong opinion on this one From JamiDeise at aol.com Fri Jun 8 02:34:10 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:34:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20404 In a message dated 6/7/2001 7:12:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, saitaina at wizzards.net writes: << They teqnically did nothing that could get Harry taken away from them (he was feed, clothed and had a bed) and while it wasn't REALLY the best thing to do, it was all they knew to do. >> Locking him in a room with bars on the windows and feeding him cold soup and bread once a day would get him taken away. At least in the U.S. Maybe in Britain that's a common way parents use to toughen their kids up. Jami From saitaina at wizzards.net Fri Jun 8 02:38:09 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:38:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT References: Message-ID: <031c01c0efc4$0f454400$704e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20405 I'm sorry but, that would not get him taken away in the US. Not feeding him would but even could soup is food, and that is all the law requires. I know it sounds horrible but I have seen worse things pass a social services investigation. I once only had rotten apples and they didn't do a damn thing against my mother when they came to investigate. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT > In a message dated 6/7/2001 7:12:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > saitaina at wizzards.net writes: > > << They teqnically did nothing that could get Harry taken away from > them (he was feed, clothed and had a bed) and while it wasn't REALLY the > best thing to do, it was all they knew to do. >> > > Locking him in a room with bars on the windows and feeding him cold soup and > bread once a day would get him taken away. At least in the U.S. Maybe in > Britain that's a common way parents use to toughen their kids up. > > Jami > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From ebonyink at hotmail.com Fri Jun 8 03:30:56 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 03:30:56 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20406 I've stayed out of this so far, but... Rosmerta wrote: "IMO the Dudley scenes are hands-down the weakest writing in the books and I sure hope JKR takes a different tack with him next time out. Anyone who can make werewolves, convicted murderers and former death- eaters appealing ought to be able to do better than to demonize fat kids." We all have our hot-button topics. I must say that weight was one of mine as a kid, but on the opposite tack. In my elementary/middle school, the larger kids NEVER got teased (in inner-city Detroit in the 1980s, being overweight wasn't a sin, it was common), but for skinny bespectacled little kids like me, there was no end to the torment. (Anybody see the modern version of Dr. Doolittle, with Eddie Murphy in the title role? The girl who played his daughter looks and acts so much like I did when I was a little kid that it's not funny.) In primary school, that teasing *was* bullying, and my tormentors were kids who were healthier than I was. I still remember how afraid I would be. Therefore, when it came time to write a story with a bully when I was in my teens, that bully was a caricature of my tormentors. We all write from our life's experiences. No, larger children should not be teased about their weight. But neither should smaller children be terrorized on the playground... Harry's experiences with Dudley and Co. in SS make me instantly flash back to kindergarten and first grade. If you were not bullied as a child, you cannot know the fear you feel. At home, when I was angry and crying, rest assured I didn't think or say nice politically correct things. I thought a lot of the same things Harry did, of course. Let's be honest. When one is extremely angry at someone, the natural inclination is a tendency to take comfort in their most obvious characteristics. For instance, most of my supervisors have been female and a great deal shorter than I... and most of the time, I never think about this. On the rare occasions that I do get angry at them, however... rest assured I think to myself (and say in private) some things that I'm not proud of later on. In JKR's defense, she's an equal opportunity offender. Her pen is not all that kind to blondes, either. Also, while connotations are important to recognize, I think that sometimes we have a tendency to overdo it. I mean, I have friends who get *very* offended with anything that included the equation dark=bad or black=evil... and will tell you why Harry Potter reinforces this subtle negative phenomenon with its vilifying of Dark Magic, the Dark Lord, etc. It's not that their concerns should be dismissed--a telling exercise that I have my older students do is to look up "light", "dark", "black", and "white" in the dictionary--but it goes back to what the point I made 2-3 weeks ago with my post on Disney. Something I was told growing up: "if you go looking for offense, you're liable to find it." The twins' revenge on Dursley in GoF is one of many of my favorite scenes in that book... wish they'd been around my neighborhood back in the mid-1980s. Even nearly twenty years later, I can think of a few kids who could have used some ton-tongue toffees. It'd be much different if Dudley was a nice kid and Harry was teasing him about his weight. My best friend weighs over 400 pounds, and we are constantly trading childhood stories from the opposite sides of the coin. But you know full well that nothing of the sort is in these books. Dudley is, as George says, "a great bullying git"... and that's all there is to it. As a teacher, I do not sympathize with bullies. I do not "understand" their behavior in the light of the way they've been treated, and I do not want to see things from the bully's point of view. We've all got problems, but it doesn't give *anyone* the right to take out your frustrations on someone else. And I am so *sick* of this relativist culture in which the victimizer's rights as a human being are valued over the victimized's! Incidentally, the girl who was the worst bully of all in elementary school, then my middle school rival came to my classroom unannounced last January. She's now a married homemaker with two children, trying to finish college, and just "heard I was there and came up to see me"... she hugged me as if we were old girlfriends, we talked about where life's taken us so far, and exchanged phone numbers and e-mail addresses to chat. Later that day, I was having lunch with a colleague... and I broke down and cried. When I told my mother about the incident that evening, I cried again. (This is why the general opinion of People in Real Life is that Ebony is off her rocker.) But Mama understood what I had to explain to my colleague, and just hugged me back and said "I know... I went through it with you, remember?" Somewhere inside of me, there's a six year old girl who accepted the olive branch that the bully of yesteryear offered. So perhaps there's hope for Dudley after all. I am far less concerned about his outward appearance than I am with the kind of person he's growing up to be. --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From bkdelong at pobox.com Fri Jun 8 03:45:23 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 23:45:23 -0400 Subject: NEWS - Huge News Update from The Leaky Cauldron Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010607234427.0545d010@pop.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20407 Hi all - LOADS of new news tonight. (New casting news, 2nd teaser poster, merchandise galore) Check it out, pass it on. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ -- B.K. DeLong Editor-in-Chief The Leaky Cauldron an (unofficial) Harry Potter news site +1.617.877.3271 bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 8 04:28:10 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 04:28:10 -0000 Subject: FAT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fpk8q+dhp0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20408 Ebony wrote: "I've stayed out of this so far, but..." --And I seem to be de-lurking because of it. I agree with Ebony, but I also think that it's very important to note that being fat is not what makes Dudley a bad person, but being a bad person is what makes Dudley fat. Of course by no means am I saying that all bad people are fat (or all fat people bad). They obviously aren't. I can however see how some children might make this incorrect connection. Ebony wrote that we all write from life's experiences, but I don't think JKR is portraying Dudley as fat because her childhood bully was fat. If I wrote like this all bullies in my stories would incidentally be named Ebony. All Ebonys obviously aren't bad :-), but I digress...Stereotyping in any form is bad, but I just don't think that's what JKR was out to do with Dudley. Peg Kerr (new memeber's if you haven't read her essays go and do so. Where is Peg anyway? I hope working on another book...) wrote in an essay on Gluttony- "This has crossed my mind, too, and has made me uneasy, too. That's why I was particularly careful in my last 7 deadly sin message (on envy) to describe Dudley not as overweight, but as a glutton. One description--overweight--is, I hope, a neutral description (although our culture tries to load it up with all sorts of moralistic baggage). But Dudley is more than overweight; he is a glutton, and as such, is depicted as a contemptible character. "His gluttony leads him to sloth (hey, coming up! Sin No. 7!) and selfishness, almost a kind of solipsism. Dudley basically believes that the world revolves around him and his appetites, to the extent that nothing MATTERS to him unless it has to do with getting his needs met. Remember when Vernon took the family and fled at the beginning of the first book when the letter(s) from Hogwarts started arriving? It didn't occur to Dudley to wonder much about this strange adventure the family was embarking upon--he couldn't think past the fact that he was hungry and had missed five of his favorite TV shows. Note how Dudley's gluttony has totally skewed the relationships in his family. Dudley's parents totally indulge him, and in doing so, they abdicate their parental roles. Vernon's attitude is fondly indulgent ("Little tyke!") which leads him down the slippery slope of overlooking his son's other faults, i.e., his sadistic bullying. Petunia caters slavishly to Dudley's every whim. Indulging Dudley's gluttony eventually leads to Vernon and Petunia loss of their grip on reality. They can't SEE the extra pounds, just as they can't see that their son isn't applying himself in school, and his terrible social relationships. "And Harry? Well, to him, Dudley is a warning. In my post about envy I mentioned that Harry might have started out envying Dudley, but Dudley has made such a monster of himself that the idea of indulging one's appetites eventually comes to seem quite unappealing to Harry. (Which is good, as it may close off one avenue of temptation that Voldemort might have tried to use to seduce him: "Want to indulge your appetites Harry? Want money? Power? All the coke you can stuff up your nose?" "No thanks. I saw what that sort of thing did for my cousin. Yuck.")" --So this obviously isn't the first time its come up. I felt like all this applies, but there is even more in the files section. Gluttony is what makes Dudley "bad". Yes he is abused, and yes in an even more serious way than Harry is. By allowing Dudley to become the glutton he is they've denyed him the chance of achieving anything and thereby becoming "somebody". Harry if nothing else wants to be more than he is, and thereby develops character. It might not work exactly that in real life (i.e. being deprived doesn't always make you stronger), but it's a lot more likely to make one grow than never being challenged or being overly spoilt. Over all the important thing to look at in Dudley is not whether or not he's fat, but *why* he's fat. If so the weight issue does't seem so dire (IMO of course) Scott From joym999 at aol.com Fri Jun 8 04:34:11 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 04:34:11 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #6 Message-ID: <9fpkk3+63ut@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20409 This week's contest is kind of complicated, and I will be out of town for a few days, so the contest will run for 2 weeks. The submission deadline is midnight EST Tuesday, June 18. Remember, DON'T POST TO THE LIST. Email your responses to HP4GUCon at aol.com. (That email address seems to be having some problems, so if you don't get an acknowledgement, send it to me again at the joym999 address.) This contest is one of my favorite games, which is known by several different names including CATEGORIES. In this game, you have a five-letter word and five different categories and you have to find 25 words or phrases which begin with each letter of the five-letter word. The categories are People, Places, Things, Beings and Terms, and you have three words to choose from ? SNAPE, MAGIC, and GHOST. To play the game first pick one of the three words ? SNAPE, MAGIC or GHOST. Then find something from the Harry Potter books (including FB and QTTA) which corresponds to each category. For example, if you pick SNAPE as your word, you must find a person, place, thing, being and term which starts with each of the letters S, N, A, P and E, for a total of 25 words or phrases. The definitions of the five categories are as follows: "People" is the first OR last name of a HUMAN (includes those who are only part human) character in any of the HP books (including QTTA and FB) . Only humans, so "Harry" or "Potter" is acceptable but "Binns" and "Dobby" are not. "Places" is the name of any place mentioned, in any capacity, in the HP books, for example "Japan" (mentioned in QTTA) or "Dumbledore's Office." "Things" is any magical object mentioned in the HP books, including titles of books, and names of specific magical items such as potions or plants. It must be something that you can touch. "Beings" includes both names and types of any non-human beings or creatures. "Peruvian Vipertooth", "Vipertooth", "Norbert", and "dragon" are all acceptable. "Terms" includes anything magical that doesn't fit into the above 4 categories, including spells, MoM departments and jobs, Hogwarts classes, and languages. Scoring is as follows: You get 2 points for each category in which you are the ONLY one to have that word or phrase. One point is subtracted from your score for any categories you leave blank. Here is an example: Here's an example, using the word SNAPE. Suppose there were only two entries, from Amy A. and Amy B., shown below. Amy A. left 3 categories blank and Amy B. left 5 categories blank, so they receive minus 3 and minus 5 points, respectively. Neither one gets credit for Scabbers, Nimbus, Norbert, NEWT, Azkaban, Ernie, Eeylops, or Elves because these words were on both lists. Amy A. gets 28 points for her remaining categories, minus 3 for the blanks, for a total of 25 points. Amy B. gets 24 points minus 5 points for a total of 19 points. (Note that this is NOT meant to imply some sort of alphabetical trend in the intelligence of Amys.) Entry 1 ? Amy A. Person Place Things Beings Terms -------------------------------------------------------------- S Snape Shrieking Sorting Scabbers Seeker Shack Hat N Neville ? Nimbus Norbert NEWT A Albus Azkaban Armadillo ? Astronomy Bile P Peter ? Prefects Puffskein Parselmouth Who Gained Power E Ernie Eeylops Every Elves Erised Owl Flavor Emporium Beans Entry 2 ? Amy B. Person Place Things Beings Terms ---------------------------------------------------------------- S Slytherin Slytherin Standard Scabbers Squib Common Book of Room Spells N Newt ? Nimbus Norbert NEWT A Aberforth Azkaban ? ? Accio P Pettigrew ? Polyjuice Peeves Parseltongue Potion E Ernie Eeylops ? Elves Exploding Snap Owl Emporium A few notes: 1. Only ONE entry per person is allowed, with only ONE of the three words. If there are not a lot of entries, I may allow people to submit a second entry with a different word next week, since this contest will run for 2 weeks. The two examples above are NOT considered official entries, so you can use any of those words. 2. You only get points if you are the only one to come up with a particular word or phrase, so the more obscure the better. On the other hand, maybe no one will choose words like "Harry" or "Hagrid" because they are so obvious. Hmmmm. Maybe you'd better come up with your own strategy. 3. I can assure you that there are at least 2 possible entries for each of the 75 possible combinations, and many, many more for most of them. 4. Remember the rules!! Do not post to the list or you will be hung by the ankles in the dungeon!!!! --Joywitch From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 8 04:45:36 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 04:45:36 -0000 Subject: Hermione/Snape/timeturner Message-ID: <9fpl9g+p4vg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20410 I've been lurking so to speak for the past few days (off singing the songs from Moulin Rouge actually) :-) The Snape/ vampire theories have been numerous these past few days, and are actually having me believing it. There certainly isn't any reason not to, afterall we don't know anything about Harry-verse vampires. Long (long, long, long) ago the discussion was going about on Hermione's over the top workload in PoA, and I had to comment. Someone said the teachers were being insensitive at allowing her to get burnt out, but how else would she learn. I know I'd sign up for extra classes and a timturner if I had the option. I'd probably end up just like Hermione, but I'd much rather find it out than just be told 'no'. The idea was also raised that the faculty *must* have known about Herm's timeturner, especially the one's whose classes she attended at the same time. If so then Snape must of known, and Dumbledore's plan for allowing Sirius to escape was really dangerous. Not to mention that line "Unless you're suggesting they were able to be in two places at once..." Even if Snape didn't know Fudge could have checked ministry records (out of curiosity, or am I giving the mand *way* to much credit?) and found out that H and H *could* be in two places at once. It wasn't a very foolproof plan on reflection, eh? Scott From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 8 07:52:02 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 07:52:02 -0000 Subject: FAT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fq072+tosa@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20411 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/7/2001 7:12:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > saitaina at w... writes: > > << They teqnically did nothing that could get Harry taken away from > them (he was feed, clothed and had a bed) and while it wasn't REALLY the > best thing to do, it was all they knew to do. >> > > Locking him in a room with bars on the windows and feeding him cold soup and > bread once a day would get him taken away. At least in the U.S. Maybe in > Britain that's a common way parents use to toughen their kids up. > > Jami As a Brit, I had to step in and say of course it isn't! Social services not getting involved with Harry and the Dursleys is something I have always been amazed about. Prior to his moving into the bedroom, poor Harry spent much of his time locked in the cupboard under the stairs, always had broken glasses, was probably often very bruised because of the beatings from Dudley and his gang and had clothes which were obviously too big for him. I am surprised that the only thing we hear about Harry's teachers is their complaints about his strange behaviour. This leads me to believe that Harry never complained - probably very introverted and used to keeping his head down. Catherine From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com Fri Jun 8 10:33:20 2001 From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:33:20 -0000 Subject: Vampire Info, Snape and Krum, wands In-Reply-To: <9fkbtm+mnrg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fq9lg+8ael@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20412 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > Kelley> Vampires were thought to be able to *take the form of a bat*, or many *other animals* (---eagle owl?), as well as a mist. They were able to control creatures like *rats* (is this why Pettigrew 'went Dark'?) and wolves, and the elements were at their command. >>>>>>>>>> > > Koinonia> In some lore vampires (Snape) and werewolves (Lupin) do not get along. There is also folklore of vampires controlling dogs.>>>>> Pippin's mentioned about vampires and werewolves not getting along; I hoped to find some info regarding this, but so far nothing. Do either of you have any more info about this? > Kelley> Some kinds of vampires were thought to be endowed with the *ability to fly* (--- Krum?). >> > > Koinonia> There has to be more to Krum than we know. In GoF it says Harry had never seen anyone fly like that; Krum hardly looked as though he was using a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air that he looked unsupported and weightless. > Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. >>>>>>> Yes, exactly. Harry 'thinks', too, that it's hard to believe he's only eighteen. Hmmm... Also, besides the description of his looks (sallow skin; thick, dark brows; large, curved nose), he is described as looking like "an overgrown bird of prey". Could this be a clue that Krum is something else? Something other than a vampire? When searching for vampire info, I came across references to an Indian 'fairy tale' about King Vikram. This name jumped out at me-- look how close Viktor Krum is to King Vikram. (Or is it just me?) Here's a bit from the stories' intro; this is from Project Gutenberg: "The Baital-Pachisi, or Twenty-five Tales of a Baital is the history of a huge Bat, Vampire, or Evil Spirit which inhabited and animated dead bodies. It is an old, and thoroughly Hindu, Legend composed in Sanskrit, and is the germ which culminated in the Arabian Nights...<> The story turns chiefly on a great king named Vikram, the King Arthur of the East, who in pursuance of his promise to a Jogi or Magician, brings to him the Baital (Vampire), who is hanging on a tree. The difficulties King Vikram and his son have in bringing the Vampire into the presence of the Jogi are truly laughable; and on this thread is strung a series of Hindu fairy stories, which contain much interesting information on Indian customs and manners..." Regarding Krum, re the 'bird of prey' bit, could this be a foreshadowing? Perhaps he'll have to 'bring in' Snape.... > Koinonia> By the way, in PoS, McGonagall says this about Harry; 'The boys a natural. I've never seen anything like it.' > Krum and Harry are both naturals. Harry had never seen anyone fly > like Krum and McGonagall had never seen anyone fly like Harry. They seem to share something in common. >>>>>>> Interesting. I don't know what to make of this. Maybe Harry has some Phoenix in him? > Kelley <(No evidence of any wands made of these yet, > no?>>>>>>>> > > Koinonia>> Krum has a wand made out of hornbeam and dragon heartstring. Don't know about Snape. >>>>>>>> That's true; I'm really curious about Snape's wand (so to speak). Btw, does Ollivander use only dragon heartstrings, unicorn hair, and phoenix feathers as cores? Seems a bit limited. If this -is- the case, (and as far as we know it is, yes?) then lots of people must have phoenix feathers in their wands, right? > Koinonia>> It seems a dhampir has this strong desire to kill his vampire father and yes they are vampire hunters. I know this is *far out* but if Snape is a vampire or even a dhampir, could he not have some special ability to hunt down other vampires? > In his search for immortality, I would imagine Voldemort spent some > time around vampires. We are told about vampires in a forest and how Voldemort spent time in a forest. The books don't say it is the same forest but it could be. Could not Snape be able to track Voldemort in some way? >>>>> I was thinking along these lines as well. Maybe his mission is to find Vold's new head quarters, rather than the double-agent duty. I was also thinking that the vampire thing could have been how Snape ended up becoming a DE as well. Vold would most likely have become a vampire (-if- he is one, from the immortality stand point) long before Snape was around; I mean, Vold -is- almost twice Snape's age. Vold started gaining power the first time around the time that the Marauder generation were first years, right? > Koinonia>> When Krum was first described, I thought of Snape. They do share many of the same physical characteristics. However, now that we know Snape's age, I don't know how he could be Krum's father. Also we are told that Krum has inherited his father's hooked nose. >>>>>> Snape's nose isn't hooked? Actually, if Snape is 35, he technically could be Krum's father, but granted, he would only have been 17 at the time. Another side thought; when JKR gave Snape's age, she said either "About 35," or "Around 35". Why give the answer like that, when she was definite with Dumbledore's and McGonagall's ages? "Dumbledore is 150, and McGonagall a sprightly 70," right? >> Koinonia>> When doing research on Vlad, there was mention of the colors they wore at that time. Red was one of the colors. I forget what the meaning was but I believe it had to do with vampires. The kids from Durmstrang wore red. Green was also another color worn and I believe it had to do with dragons. On a side note, I think there is more to dragons than has been discussed. >>>>>>> Interesting. I wonder if this has any tie to Gryffindor's color being red? I was wondering about the dragons, too. I hope you're right, and that they get to play a bigger role in the rest of the books. > Kelley > Modern vampires have become more sensual and seductive and very alluring. Blood is known to be very powerful: it is the source of life and health and sexual passion. The sensations excited by the > > flow of blood are real and oftentimes intense. > > Koinonia>> Someone else suggested today that maybe Snape was biting the neck of Florence and not kissing her ;) That's it! He just couldn't control his passion!!! >>>>>>>>>> Hahaha, sounds good to me. > I'm not sure what spiritual vampires are. Don't know if I want to > know ;) >>>>>>>>>> >From what I read, they sound an awful lot like the dementors. > Koinonia>> Thanks for a great read! I enjoyed it.>>>>>>>>> Thanks! Glad you liked it. There are lots of sites with vampire info out there; you wouldn't believe some of it... > I still believe Snape is a vampire and I wouldn't be surprised if > there are others we have already read about that are also. > > Still in the minority, > Koinonia >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heh, well, I'm right there with you. I think I believe this theory more strongly than any of the others about the books; about on par with Harry is a/the descendant of Gryffindor. (I don't even think of "Snape is a vampire" as a theory; it feels absolutely definite to me. Ah well, time will tell.) Kelley From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 8 10:34:57 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 03:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat, was Re: Hagrid in Slytherin??? & in defense of Slytherin... In-Reply-To: <9fp4ic+jr0n@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010608103457.86630.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20413 Of course, Sirius wasn't bad either, and Hagrid should have known that too, afaik. I don't think it's an inconsistency on JKR's part, but perhaps a bit of hyperbole from Hagrid. ....Craig But Hagrid didn't know that he wasn't bad at that time..cuz that would completely through off his oppinion of Black in POA...just my oppinion Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com Fri Jun 8 11:09:41 2001 From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle at bigpond.com) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:09:41 -0000 Subject: short introduction & lots of questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fqbpl+f61u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20414 Question Asked: Can anybody tell me how a person becomes Minister of Magic? Lindsay Answered: >>> In terms of the British Constitution, Ministers are appointed by the Prime Minister, who is appointed by the Queen from the House of Commons. There is precedent that Ministers do not have to be members of either Houses of Parliament, though this is very unusual. This is not as daft as it sounds. There is obviously communication at the highest levels between the muggle authorities and the Ministry of Magic at the highest level - the Minister of Magic alerts the muggle authorities about Sirius Black's escape in POA. So it is not straining things too much to suppose that the Ministry of Magic is simply a Ministry of the British Government, much as the Ministry of Agriculture etc. It makes you think about Tony Blair in a different light, doesn't it? Maybe the Tories weren't so far off the mark in 1997 with those 'demon eyes'! <<< Oh my goodness ! Could you imagine what Sir Humphrey Appleby would make of this ? Rowena From ebonyink at hotmail.com Fri Jun 8 11:46:48 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:46:48 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20415 Scott wrote: >Ebony wrote that we all write from life's experiences, but I don't >think JKR is portraying Dudley as fat because her childhood bully was >fat. If I wrote like this all bullies in my stories would >incidentally be named Ebony. No, this is *not* what I'm saying at all. It is annoying to me, though, to think that if Dudley was a rat-faced, too tall skinny kid, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Again, if you look for offense, you are liable to find it. I really don't think that heavier kids identify with Dudley. >Over all the important thing to look at in Dudley is not whether or >not he's fat, but *why* he's fat. If so the weight issue does't seem >so dire (IMO of course) But I do think JKR is showing reasons why he is overweight. --Ebony AKA AngieJ (who will not let this go) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu Fri Jun 8 12:46:02 2001 From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:46:02 -0400 Subject: phoenixes Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC09F4@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 20416 Christine's question: > Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 18:06:42 -0000 > From: cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com > Subject: Phoenixes > > I have a question for whoever wants to answer it. I was just > re-reading CoS and came to the part where Fawkes dies and is reborn. > Does it say anywhere, or does anyone have any theories on how often a > phoenix dies and is reborn? > > Christine > Was followed by several well-grounded posts on classical phoenixes. However, I quote the only opinion that matters, that of the object of all our affection, in the person of Newt Scamander: "PHOENIX "M.O.M. Classification: XXXX (11) "The phoenix is a magnificent, swan-sized, scarlet bird, with a long golden tail, beak, and talons. It nests on mountain peaks and is found in Egypt, India, and China. The phoenix lives to an immense age as it can regenerate, bursting into flames when its body begins to fail and rising from the ashes as a chick. The phoenix is a gentle creature that has never been known to kill and eats only herbs. Like the Diricawl...it can disappear and reappear at will. Phoenix song is magical; it is reputed to increase the courage of the pure of heart and to strike fear into the hearts of the impure. Phoenix tears have powerful healing properties. "(11) The phoenix gains a XXXX rating not because it is aggressive, but because very few wizards have ever succeeded in domesticating it." ---Scamander, Newt. _Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them_. London: Obscurus Books, 1927 (52nd ed.), p. 32. (AKA, Rowling, J.K. _FB_. New York: Scholastic Press, 2001.) The book strongly implies the existence of more than one phoenix at a time. Furthermore, it implies that, as others suggested, they live lifetimes of more or less a normal bird length, then are reborn, and that it is this cycle of rebirth that accounts for their extraordinary lifespans. However, her description also does not rule out the more classical definition, either that only one exists at a time (for ex., we know Fawkes only ever gave 2 feathers), or that the overall life expectancy is about 500 years. However, personally I agree with Christine herself and Banjoken, who cite Dumbledore's attitude toward Fawkes as one who has "been there, done that" many times before, and conclude that Mr. Scamander's implication is that phoenixes "molt" on a similar timetable to other large birds, but that their molting is actually the "burning" that Dumbledore refers to in COS, ch. 12. Gwendolyn G. From catlady at wicca.net Fri Jun 8 12:52:55 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 05:52:55 -0700 Subject: Colin Creevey - chapter 12 + 13 summaries - wizard names - etc Message-ID: <3B20CAA5.C018ACED@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20417 Catherine wrote about Colin Creevey: > I know that at the moment he is annoyingly hero- > worshipping Harry (which Harry does put up with, > without being too rude and hurting his feelings) . I think Harry IS being too rude to poor Colin, the way he just brushes him off all the time, and am astonished that Colin has not yet shown any hurt feelings about it. On the day in PoA when Harry was excluded from the Hogmeade outing, Harry was just as mean to poor Neville, who was being nice when he suggested they could play Exploding Snap or work on their homework together. Trina wrote: > 4. *Is* it obvious what is making Lupin ill? (yeah, yeah, yeah, I > know. Pretend this is the first time you've read PoA) No. It was not obvious. Even tho' I got the werewolf idea as soon as I saw the name Lupin, I didn't figure out that his Boggart was the moon and I didn't realize that his sick day was connected to the moon phase. > 5. Wood has the Gyffindor team practising 5 nights a week. > Do you think this is allowed by school rules? Is Wood a little > *too* obsessed? Somehow JKR managed to make me like the character Oliver the jock, to sympathise with Harry and Ron's love of Quidditch, even to care which House won the cup, when in real life I surely would dislike Oliver and he would dislike me, and I probably wouldn't attend even my own House's matches. > 1. Why does Hermione not exhibit the least bit of > sympathy for Ron on the loss of Scabbers? > Does Ron just have it in for Crookshanks > because he jumped on his head in Diagon Alley? I thought that complete lack of sympathy was very unbecoming of Hermione. Ron was sort of right. Crookshanks really had been hunting Scabbers all semester. Even if the reason was only that Crookshanks is a cat and Scabbers is a rat, I've lived with cats all my life and I know that pet rats, canaries, and garter snakes are in danger from natural cat instincts. Before the loss of Scabbers, Hermione should have kept promising Ron that she would try harder to keep Crookshanks out of the boys' dorm, and after it, she should have gushed: "Oh, poor Ron, how sad for you, I know how much you loved that rat". > 2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle > or was he just imagining things? Why doesn't he tell Ron? Even on first reading, I never thought the big black dog was really a Grim, but I didn't know it was Sirius either. I kept wondering what that big black dog was all about: could it be a spy for the bad guys? I believed that Harry saw the big black dog on the way back to the castle (just as he had earlier seen it in the Quidditch stands). He didn't tell Ron because Ron would panic at the thought it was a Grim. > Trina (a South Carolinian whose only agenda is to make > sure Lady Jane gets her amoxicillin for the day.) Who's Lady Jane? Once my doctor gave me amoxicillin and I turned out to be allergic to it... Barbara Purdom wrote: > Maybe JKR will give Remus Lupin a twin brother Romulus. Surely naming two brothers Remus and Romulus would create a big danger of one of them killing the other. Like naming them Cain and Abel. > If ever someone's destiny were in his name... And Sirius Black: big Black Dog-star. And Professor Sprout for Herbology, and Professor Vector for Arithmancy, and Newt (like a newt) Scamander (like a salamander) as the fabulous beasts nut.... Pippin has suggested that some wizard parents use a Name Charm which chooses a destiny-connected name for their baby and the parents, having used the Charm, cannot refuse to use the name it provided. I still question how the family name can always be part of it. Amy Z wrote: > Re: Harry's lack of impure thoughts about Cho, > I think Jo may just be (mercifully) sparing us the details. As you know, I think Harry's lack of impure thoughts about Cho (not even kissing!) is an important clue to Harry's psychology. Craig wrote: > Of course, if it is a teacher in her 30's, we might > get to see one of the boys do a reverse Hermione- > and-Lockhart-type swooning.... That occurs in the AU 4th year fanfic HP and the Doomspell Potion: http://home.att.net/~Doomspell/Doomspell/Homex.html Catherine wrote: > isn't it strange that 3 out of 4 champions are seekers? We don't know that Fleur isn't a Seeker as well. We weren't told anything about Beauxbatons or Durmstrang's SCHOOL Quidditch. Liz nizbet_noni wrote: > Harry thinks something like "he hoped Padma Patil's > nose was dead centre," which implies that Padma looks > different to Parvati. To me, it implies that Harry has no idea what Padma looks like. I think that is a sign of how unobservant he is, since he MUST have seen Parvati and Padma together SOMETIME in four years, considering that all the students eat together in the Great Hall. Robert Carnegie wrote of psychic vampires: > These ones surely sound more like incubus / succubus / Dementor? Psychic vampires (which are real and are ordinary Muggle human beings, except for the unfortunate effect on other people they associate with) resemble Dementors in the Dementors' "depression" aspect: they suck all the happiness and hope out of you. They don't particularly resemble Dementors in their "PTSD" aspect: awakening memories of the most horrible things that have happened to you. I don't know what your idea of incubi/succubi is: it is my understanding that the demon takes the appearance of a beautiful woman (succubus) to get sperm from a man, and then takes the appearance of a woman's husband (incubus) to pass the sperm on to her, thus explaining why there are babies who look like someone other than their daddies. Jim Flanagan wrote: > in several different Indo-European mythologies, including Sumarian, Greek, Indic, and Celtic, You must have meant something else when you typed Sumerian, because Sumerian is NOT Indo-European. The Sumerian language is one of the those languages that have no relatives. You meant Slavic? Farsi? Armenian? Hittite? Allyse wrote: > Malfoy has a very poor opinion of Harry. I would imagine > that he sneeringly thinks that the mere sight of the Dementors > would be enough to make Harry go to pieces. I imagine that JKR's Draco was hoping that Harry would be killed, not just lose the game. However, Draco had no business sneering at Harry: "That little git," [George] said calmly. "He wasn't so cocky last night when the dementors were down at our end of the train. Came runing into our compartment, didn't he, Fred?" "Nearly wet himself," said Fred, with a contemptuous glance at Malfoy. How badly the students suffer from the Dementors is connected to what Horrors they have experienced: Harry the worst, with his parents' murder. Ginny badly, with her previous year's encounter with the Chamber of Secrets, Neville badly, with his regular visits to his unfortunate parents. Draco badly: there must be horrors in his past, too. Ebony wrote: > At home, when I was angry and crying, rest assured I > didn't think or say nice politically correct things. What kind of parents see their child crying over having been bullied and don't tell the child that she's just a crybaby, that being bullied is her own fault for not standing up for herself, and that she must be lying, the parents' nice friends' children wouldn't ever do anything like that? > As a teacher, I do not sympathize with bullies. I do not > "understand" their behavior in the light of the way they've > been treated, and I do not want to see things from the bully's > point of view. We've all got problems, but it doesn't give > *anyone* the right to take out your frustrations on someone > else. And I am so *sick* of this relativist culture in which the > victimizer's rights as a human being are valued over the victimized's! I don't think it has anything to do with relativism; I think it is simply the very old, absolutist, traditional value that 'might makes right". And I must unhappily acknowledge that the parents of bullies are quite correct to take their children's side against the victims: bullies grow up to be very successful in climbing the corporate ladder and eventually get huge money. We humans are a lot more like chimpanzees than is pleasant. Kelley wrote: > Btw, does Ollivander use only dragon heartstrings, unicorn > hair, and phoenix feathers as cores? Seems a bit limited. > If this -is- the case, (and as far as we know it is, yes?) Ollivander said it is the case: "Every Ollivander wand has a core of a powerful magical substance, Mr. Potter. We use unicorn hairs, phoenix tail feathers, and the heartstrings of dragons. No two Ollivander wands are the same, just as no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the same. And of course, you will never get such good results with another wizard's wand." btw: "just as no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the same": there is more than one phoenix in the Potterverse > then lots of people must have phoenix feathers in their wands, right? The second wand Harry tried was "Maple and phoenix feather. Seven inches. Quite whippy. Try --" -- /\ /\ + + Mews and views >> = << from Rita Prince Winston ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From reanna20 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 8 13:05:47 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 06:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione/Snape/timeturner In-Reply-To: <9fpl9g+p4vg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010608130547.18206.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20418 --- Scott wrote: > The idea was also raised that the faculty *must* have known about > Herm's timeturner, especially the one's whose classes she attended at > the same time. If so then Snape must of known, and Dumbledore's plan > for allowing Sirius to escape was really dangerous. Not to mention > that line "Unless you're suggesting they were able to be in two > places at once..." I completely and utterly agree. While it's possible that some faculty members might not question this sort of thing, it's ridiculous to imagine all of them wouldn't and not for the entire year. I remember at one time trying to write a post to this group about it but giving up because the words weren't coming out right. I had always wondered what McGonnagal was doing during the whole episode. I mean we *know* that she knows about Hermione's timeturner. And she isn't in the know that Sirius is really innocent. She must've known about the impending execution and probably was helping surpervising it. You'd think she would've said something, if not Snape...and if not at that exact moment, certainly later. Spurious speculation: how well known are the Time Turners? Is their existence taught at Hogwarts? Are they a "secret" being guarded by the Ministry? Why entrust such "secret" magic to a young witch, even if she was a responsible person? If they are well-known then Snape was *stupid* for not challenging Dumbledore's statement about being in two places at once (same for Fudge and everyone else in the room). If they aren't well-known, it seems very strange that the Ministry would trust one in the hands of a learning witch. A bit too trusting for the Ministry's past behavior...or perhaps this is just another example of how clueless and bumbling the Ministry can be? ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/2/2001 " 'I think it was a bit of an overreaction,' said the serpent. 'I mean, first offense and everything. I can't see what's so bad about knowing the difference between good and evil, anyway.' " - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 8 14:54:01 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:54:01 -0000 Subject: Vampire?Snape, DADA creatures Message-ID: <9fqou9+ibpp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20419 Amber wrote: >I can understand Snape hating Lupin because he was friends with James/Sirius >and because of the "trick" but if he was a vampire, you would think >he'd have enough empathy to not twit Lupin about being a werewolf. Classic self-hatred; people turn their wrath on those who are uncomfortably close to their own most hated characteristics. As for his confidence that Lupin wouldn't spill his secret, that could stem from his sense that Lupin just won't stoop that low (if so, he's right); or perhaps he doesn't really care if his vampirism comes out; or perhaps he's just not thinking it through on a conscious level. I wonder whether Snape was conscious of his own plot to uncover Lupin. He could have just told everyone at any time and risked Dumbledore's anger, as he finally did at the end. Perhaps his conscious decision earlier in the year is to go along with the charade, but he can't stop himself from sending students toward hints. Koinonia wrote: >Plus I don't believe Lupin included any vampire stuff in that test he gave the class. I can just see the conversation in the staff room where Lupin asks dear Severus to help him out with his final exam by trying to suck the students' blood. I really like all the vampire imagery even if, maybe especially if, Snape =isn't= a vampire. JKR has clearly put a lot of thought into creating a certain image of Snape in our minds, and the vampire overtones fit him well. Pippin wrote: >There's a clincher for the clincher: GoF ch. 14, where "Moody" tells >his class he's had a letter from Professor Lupin about what they >covered last year: "boggarts, Red Caps, hinkypunks, grindylows, Kappas >and werewolves." Off the subject of Count Snape, this line has always bugged me because it sounds as if they didn't learn anything since Christmas. In November, the day they have Snape for DADA, Hermione says they've already studied Red Caps, Kappas, Boggarts and Grindylows (ch. 9). Hinkypunks are next--they study them in the next lesson (ch 10). Werewolves are in between, as we know, or maybe they kept studying them up til Christmas or so. So-- What else did they study? They can't have spent the entire winter and spring on vampires. No other creatures get mentioned in the final. Maybe Lupin =is= too easy on them . . . Amy Z still curious about why people think Harry is seeing the Grim/Sirius in PA 13 --------------------------------------------------------------- "Don't you call me an idiot!" said Neville. "I don't think you should be breaking any more rules! And you were the one who told me to stand up to people!" "Yes, but not to =us=," said Ron in exasperation. -HP and the Philosopher's Stone --------------------------------------------------------------- From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 8 14:59:58 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:59:58 -0000 Subject: Fat - magic of technology - evil Message-ID: <9fqp9e+s06v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20420 Meredith wrote I've shared my concerns already, and I share some of yours. There are positive characters who are fat or some euphemism thereof; Molly is repeatedly called "plump" and Draco calls her "porky." Neville is described as "fat" again by someone who's making fun of him (Pansy in PS/SS 9). Neutral characters like Ernie (a kid) and Fudge are described as "pudgy" and "portly," respectively. JKR doesn't dwell on their weight--you have to read carefully to realize that Neville's on the pudgy side (his round face is described often but he's only called "fat" once). That strikes me as the way I'd like kids to read about people of various sizes, just as we know Dean and Angelina are black and Seamus is white and Parvati is Asian and those are supposed to be physical descriptions/interesting background, not clues to the content of their characters. In my view, it's okay to describe people by their weight if you're evenhanded about it (which she is--she doesn't reserve it for the overweight) and don't tie it to other, unrelated characteristics like having self-control. (Please! my husband is overweight and I'm not, and he has way more self-discipline than I do). And yet with Dudley she can't stop calling him "fat," again, like kids who can't let a pudgy classmate walk by without snorting like pigs. That's what disturbs me. There are three occasions I can recall where someone makes fun of someone else's weight: Harry calling Dudley "a pig in a wig," Draco calling Mrs. Weasley "porky" and Pansy calling Neville a "fat crybaby." In two of the three cases, we're clearly supposed to side with the pudgy person. With Harry, I can't blame him--I called my bullying sister worse things than that and she wasn't nearly as nasty as Dudley--but I wish it weren't there because I'd like to be able to point out the moral lesson to kids, e.g. "Making fun of people's weight is a really Slytherinish thing to do). (They'd just sigh and groan and tell me to get on with the story anyway.) hfakhro wrote: >This really bothered me too, especially when I was reading GoF. That >was when Dudley was forced on a diet, and when the twins played a >prank on him with the toffee. I thought Harry was awful for laughing >at him then (at least, it keeps us knowing that he's not perfect.) Arthur accuses the twins of Muggle-baiting and they protest that that isn't what they were doing. I think the following exchange works just as well if one accuses them of being cruel to Dudley because he's obese: "We didn't give it to him because he's [fat]!" said Fred indignantly. "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying git," said George. "Isn't he, Harry?" "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly. He =is= a great bullying git, and Harry has been systematically tormented by him for most of his life. If anyone deserves to be amused by Dudley's unpleasant experience, it's him. I feel sorry for Dudley, here and elsewhere--parents who raise their children to be spoiled bullies are doing them no favors--but I was rather touched by the evidence that Fred and George have been paying attention to Harry's descriptions of life with the Dursleys these past three years. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: >I'm curious to see what will come of his diet. I wouldn't be surprised if OoP opens with a thin Dudley. He has been on a strict diet for a year (too strict, I agree, Meredith, though I don't share your view that all diets are bad; some are reasonable). Now if only his personality would improve . . . Pippin wrote: > Magic fills a niche that technology cannot. The fantasy of the >magic wand allows us to imagine what, as children, all of us believed: >that we could learn to control the outside world in the same exclusive, >mysterious and innate way in which we learned to form our thoughts and >move our fingers and toes. I agree. This is spinning a thread in me, though. Thinking about my childhood, I'm wondering whether the thrill of magic wears off if you live it. I recall desperately wanting a child-sized car like Milo had in The Phantom Tollbooth. Then I grew up and learned to drive a real car, and I own one, and as nifty as it is, it doesn't satisfy that longing for an almost magical ability to get where I want to go. Is it just that it's ordinary now? Would Apparating and Hovering Charms and Transfiguration, which seem so thrilling to us, be quite ordinary and dull if we'd grown up with them? The sense of wonder has to be nurtured, or we walk past miracles and don't even see them. I can cross the state in an hour and a half, with little expenditure of body energy, while sitting down, eating, and listening to music. That is pretty amazing. Just the other day I was driving and imagining myself trying to explain the car to a wizard, the real clueless type who doesn't know the first thing about Muggle technology and is eager to learn, like Mr. Weasley. I realized I couldn't explain it at all. I don't have the first idea how a car engine works, or even, when you get down to the nitty gritty, how the electrical circuit from my turn signal to the light bulb on my bumper works. If I'd pay more attention to those things, I'd see them wondrous. Clarke's dictum isn't just about people who encounter technology way beyond theirs and are amazed because they don't understand how it works, the way a 16th-century person would be by electric light or we would be by Apparition. The more I know about technology, the more magical I find it. No amount of explanation has made electricity any less amazing to me; in fact, it gets more mysterious ("But =why= do opposite charges attract?" "How do the electrons =know= whether the circuit is complete?"). Magic is everywhere. Caius Marcius wrote: >Voldemort reflects - in Henry Fielding's phrase - "the perfection of >the diabolic as opposed to the imperfections of humanity." I do not >see Voldemort as a "camp" or quasi-comic "Evil Overlord" character, >as some seem to regard him. Having just ended a century in which >forces of political and social evil held an unprecedented sway (yes, >even if the practitioners of it were an imperfect admixture of good >and evil), we know that many millions of people have lived - or not >lived - through regimes not unlike the one so well described by >Sirius Black (GOF, Ch. 27) All too true. I don't think Voldemort is unrealistic, for that reason. I just find the admixture more interesting than the look at cold pure evil. Voldemort is not the protagonist, so we may never learn what is in him besides evil, and that's fine. The likes of Snape and Wormtail more interesting because the struggle is still going on in them. Amy Z who loves the Seamus Finnegan's Wake sigs --------------------------------------------------------- Dudley thought for a moment. It looked like hard work. -HP and the Philosopher's Stone --------------------------------------------------------- From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Fri Jun 8 15:05:23 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT In-Reply-To: <9fq072+tosa@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010608150523.65442.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20421 --- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 6/7/2001 7:12:04 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > > saitaina at w... writes: > > > > << They teqnically did nothing that could get > Harry taken away from > > them (he was feed, clothed and had a bed) and > while it wasn't > REALLY the > > best thing to do, it was all they knew to do. >> > > > > Locking him in a room with bars on the windows and > feeding him cold > soup and > > bread once a day would get him taken away. At > least in the U.S. > Maybe in > > Britain that's a common way parents use to toughen > their kids up. > > > > Jami > > As a Brit, I had to step in and say of course it > isn't! Social > services not getting involved with Harry and the > Dursleys is > something I have always been amazed about. Prior to > his moving into > the bedroom, poor Harry spent much of his time > locked in the cupboard > under the stairs, always had broken glasses, was > probably often very > bruised because of the beatings from Dudley and his > gang and had > clothes which were obviously too big for him. I am > surprised that > the only thing we hear about Harry's teachers is > their complaints > about his strange behaviour. This leads me to > believe that Harry > never complained - probably very introverted and > used to keeping his > head down. > > Catherine > > I'm afraid I have to disagree with this one from personal experience. The first day that my 5-year-old went to school the teacher called Social Services on me based on the fact that my daughter had 4-day old cat scratches on her arm and a VERY(2+ years old) old scar in the middle of her back. I don't know about the UK but in the US system teachers are almost fanatical(sometimes) about CPS(Child Protective Sevices) and SS and about calling them in for "possible abuse". Just the fact that Harry never seemed to have any new clothes or glasses would be cause for the average teacher to call CPS on neglect charges, let alone the fact that he was constantly bruised from Dudley beating on him. The fact that Dudley was always better fed and clothed would have been a major tip-off to a teacher as well. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org Fri Jun 8 15:28:33 2001 From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:28:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20422 >Scott wrote: >>Ebony wrote that we all write from life's experiences, but I don't >>think JKR is portraying Dudley as fat because her childhood bully was >>fat. If I wrote like this all bullies in my stories would >>incidentally be named Ebony. >No, this is *not* what I'm saying at all. It is annoying to me, though, to >think that if Dudley was a rat-faced, too tall skinny kid, we wouldn't be >having this conversation. That's because it would make him a totally different kind of character. And you can't tell me that Cindy Crawford isn't more popular than Anna Nicole Smith. Or any other too tall skinny supermodel. Now I'll be the first to say that I totally understand that very tall or skinny or whatever people have their own problems. We all have a cross to bear of some kind, that's not the argument. The argument is that JKR drives the issue into the ground by mentioning his size as a derogatory issue in everything she says about him. If he was a rat-faced, too tall skinny kid, she wouldn't say anything about Harry having to look at his skinny bottom, or his skinny face (maybe his rat face though...). No matter what your size, you have to see the way society sees large people as people who have a disease, or are lazy and unsavory people. It is a prejudice just like many others that are inexcusable, yet a lot of people get away with it every day. It is illegal to deny someone a job based on race, sex, sexual orientation, etc, but it is perfectly fine to deny someone a job in this country because they are fat. And to me, that is wrong. And really, that kind of descrimination is not the issue here. >Again, if you look for offense, you are liable to find it. I really don't >think that heavier kids identify with Dudley. That's true, but again, anyone who's been discriminated against because of their size (not gotten jobs, or proper health care, just gotten teased or beat up on the playground or whatever) is sensitive to the issue. I will also say that I wouldn't think that heavier kids identify with Dudley either, but the lighter kids associate the heavier kids with Dudley. I'm sure that a lot of heavy kids identify with Harry or Ron or Hermione or whomever, but it probably really hurts when the other kids call them Dudley. >>Over all the important thing to look at in Dudley is not whether or >>not he's fat, but *why* he's fat. If so the weight issue does't seem >>so dire (IMO of course) >But I do think JKR is showing reasons why he is overweight. I agree, I just think she puts too much emphasis on his size when she could have gotten the same picture across by mentioning it when he's being gluttonous and dropping the references like 'waddling' or his 'fat' face, bottom, etc. Mer, who can't seem to let it go either... From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Fri Jun 8 16:05:34 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:05:34 -0000 Subject: Portrayal of Dudley (was FAT) In-Reply-To: <9fqp9e+s06v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fqt4e+9ri9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20423 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > And yet with Dudley she can't stop calling him "fat," again, like kids > who can't let a pudgy classmate walk by without snorting like pigs. > That's what disturbs me. > > There are three occasions I can recall where someone makes fun of > someone else's weight: Harry calling Dudley "a pig in a wig," Draco > calling Mrs. Weasley "porky" and Pansy calling Neville a "fat > crybaby." In two of the three cases, we're clearly supposed to side > with the pudgy person. With Harry, I can't blame him--I called my > bullying sister worse things than that and she wasn't nearly as nasty > as Dudley--but I wish it weren't there because I'd like to be able to > point out the moral lesson to kids, e.g. "Making fun of people's > weight is a really Slytherinish thing to do). (They'd just sigh and > groan and tell me to get on with the story anyway.) > > hfakhro wrote: > > >This really bothered me too, especially when I was reading GoF. That > >was when Dudley was forced on a diet, and when the twins played a > >prank on him with the toffee. I thought Harry was awful for laughing > >at him then (at least, it keeps us knowing that he's not perfect.) > > Arthur accuses the twins of Muggle-baiting and they protest that that > isn't what they were doing. I think the following exchange works just > as well if one accuses them of being cruel to Dudley because he's > obese: > > "We didn't give it to him because he's [fat]!" > said Fred indignantly. > "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying > git," said George. "Isn't he, Harry?" > "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly. > > He =is= a great bullying git, and Harry has been systematically > tormented by him for most of his life. If anyone deserves to be > amused by Dudley's unpleasant experience, it's him. I feel sorry for > Dudley, here and elsewhere--parents who raise their children to be > spoiled bullies are doing them no favors--but I was rather touched by > the evidence that Fred and George have been paying attention to > Harry's descriptions of life with the Dursleys these past three years. I agree with all your points here... I remember when I read GoF, I was very touched by the twins' coming to pick Harry up, and don't get me wrong I love the twins in general. I think they're absolutely lovely to Harry throughout the books. I think their heart was in the right place with that prank, (they've heard about what a bully Dudley used to be with Harry - why not test out Wizard Wheezes on him, right?) I never questioned the twins' motives. My problem is that I actually kind of agree with Arthur Weasley here. I hope JKR addresses the question of muggle/wizard relations closely in the future, because I think it's an important lesson for Harry and for the readers. (Maybe Harry doesn't need that lesson though... I think he's pretty sensible about muggles in general, but that's a different topic.) OK remember in book 1, Hagrid insults Dudley the minute he sees him (something like, "shove up, you great lump") and then proceeds to give Dudley a pig's tail? And they have to go to hospital to get it removed? Then in book 3, Harry blows up Dudley's aunt, and in book 4, he gets "ton-tongued". Dudley is *terrified* of wizards and magic, he goes around holding his backside to prevent future attacks similar to Hagrid's. Now I'm not questioning Hagrid or the twins for this behaviour, because I think their motives are pure; they do it out of defense of Harry. And I agree that Harry himself is justified in laughing at Dudley because of all the abuse he tolerated from him growing up. What I was trying to say in my not-very-well-written post, was that I hope JKR is going somewhere with this portrayal of Dudley. The fact that she has said in an interview that she feels his childhood is just as scarred as Harry's in some ways gives me hope that she will do that. Because I think Dudley is a product of something else (the Dursleys' questionable parenting), and I think she needs to address that and his personality. I think he shouldn't be laughed at, and tricked by people he is terrified of, rather it should be the Dursleys themselves who get attacked for what they've produced. And I agree that Dudley being fat is overly emphasised, and therefore I think (hope?) there is a reason for that - hopefully we'll find out in the upcoming books. Does that make sense? I guess it also shows JKR's genius in that in reality, it is the kids who get laughed at for their parents' mistakes, and I find that cruel. Even Harry himself gets ridiculed by the Dursleys for being abnormal, even though he can't help that he was born into a wizarding family. I guess another way of looking at it is through the portrayal of Draco. How many people get sick of the way he is portrayed in the books? I know that in fanfiction Draco-redemption is a popular theme, because people believe that he is too one-sided. His father's a bully therefore he's a bully. Same goes for Vernon and Dudley - they're both ignorant and they're both bullies. My take on this is that for all of JKR's "it's about your choices and not your abilities" (and by extension, your background) morals, she seems to fail (so far) with the portrayal of Dudley and Malfoy. She makes them both out to be exactly like their families, stereotypically bad/ignorant. Even better examples of this are Crabbe and Goyle. (How on earth are they in 'cunning' Slytherin if they're so stupid?!) I'm not saying that this is not going anywhere; I think she knows exactly what she's doing with these characters. I'm just saying that so far I don't like the way they are written because they encourage the bad/good stereotypes that I think these books generally do a marvellous job of avoiding. My thoughts are not fully formed on this yet and I didn't get much sleep last night so I am slightly muddled, but I would be interested in hearing people's reactions to this... From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com Fri Jun 8 16:11:03 2001 From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:11:03 -0000 Subject: Snape/Lily (was Snape as Vampire) In-Reply-To: <007201c0efb1$9102bee0$e7a4b118@phnx2.az.home.com> Message-ID: <9fqten+dn1u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20424 Catherine wrote: >> Maybe Snape hates James ( and by extension, Harry,since he looks so much like his father) because he lost Lily to him...?<< Ahh. The Snape/Lily debate returns. This will likely be opened for greater dicussion when I post my Chapter Summary/Questions for Chapter 14: Snape's Grudge. Personally, I'm not one for the theory, as the Snapefans here can attest. ;) Lyda From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Jun 8 18:07:04 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 18:07:04 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevey In-Reply-To: <3B20CAA5.C018ACED@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9fr488+pio3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20425 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady wrote: > Catherine wrote about Colin Creevey: > > > I know that at the moment he is annoyingly hero- > > worshipping Harry (which Harry does put up with, > > without being too rude and hurting his feelings) . If you would like a refreshing new take on Colin Creevey, I recommend "Colon Creepy" by Anita Skeeter on fanfiction.net Haggridd From reanna20 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 8 19:04:33 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lucius Message-ID: <20010608190433.42975.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20426 Odd things swimming through my head like usual. This time I was pondering the "relationship" between Voldemort and Lucius. I think that it's clear that Lucius Malfoy isn't completely cowed by Voldemort. And I don't think he joined Voldemort out of fear or devotion. I think he did it strictly to try and climb up the ladder in the world. This makes me wonder if Voldemort will be the ultimate threat for the next three books. I mean, it's almost that I take it for granted that there will be a final showdown between good old Voldie and Harry. But what if Voldemort is defeated before the end of the seventh book and not by Harry but by Lucius? Think of it, how long do you think Lucius is going to continue to take orders? He certainly seems like the type who will *pretend* to be your friend and then stab you in the back when you're not looking. Granted, I think Voldemort is well aware of this and keeps him around because Lucius has power, "prestige", skills. But I don't think that their relationship will stay like this forever. Lucius is eventually going to either "steal" Voldemort's place and defeat him or he is going to die trying. Either case is going to have interesting effects on Draco. A lot depends on what type of relationship he and his father have. A lot of people seem to think that Lucius is abusing Draco behind the scenes. If so, Voldemort killing Lucius might cause Draco to more firmly join his side. However, if Lucius and Draco do have a mostly positive relationship, Lucius' death might drive Draco over to Harry's side. Of course, these are just guesses, there are tons of other options open. Draco will probably do the unexpected thing, just to annoy us readers! If Lucius lives and takes Voldemort's place...well, I quite frankly don't think this'll happen. Something inside says that JKR wouldn't cheat her readers of the final showdown between Harry and Voldie. Therefore, the chances of Lucius dying seem more and more likely, just from what we've seen of his character. Of course, what do I know, Lucius might love being one of Voldemort's toadies. But it seems more that he fits the role of Aspiring Dark Lord rather than Eager-To-Please Henchman. ~Amber (Who probably fits the role of Henchman better than Dark Lord...I'm horrendous at giving orders...) ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/2/2001 " 'I think it was a bit of an overreaction,' said the serpent. 'I mean, first offense and everything. I can't see what's so bad about knowing the difference between good and evil, anyway.' " - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jun 8 20:28:09 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:28:09 -0000 Subject: Hermione/Snape/timeturner In-Reply-To: <20010608130547.18206.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9frcgp+bjf4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20427 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber wrote: > > --- Scott wrote: > > The idea was also raised that the faculty *must* have known about > > Herm's timeturner, especially the one's whose classes she attended at > > the same time. If so then Snape must of known, and Dumbledore's plan > > for allowing Sirius to escape was really dangerous. Not to mention > > that line "Unless you're suggesting they were able to be in two > > places at once..." > > I completely and utterly agree. > Spurious speculation: how well known are the Time Turners? If they are well-known then Snape was *stupid* for not challenging Dumbledore's statement about being in two places at once (same for Fudge and everyone else in the room). Dumbledore's remark, IMO, was meant to call Snape to heel, like the "Thank you, Severus" remark after Snapes "crossing lines" speech in GoF. Dumbledore is letting Snape know he is right, but that he expects Snape to let it go. He trusts Snape, remember? And Snape, very reluctantly, does just that. As for Fudge, there's no reason to believe *he* would know that Hermione has a time turner, (as is remarked at the beginning of PoA, it's not likely that the Minister of Magic would be personally concerned in the affairs of a student) and Dumbledore's remark might also be a warning to McGonagall that just now would not be an opportune time to bring it up. Pippin From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Jun 8 22:03:22 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:03:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione/Snape/timeturner In-Reply-To: <9fpl9g+p4vg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010608145934.00abab10@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20428 At 04:45 AM 6/8/01 +0000, Scott wrote: >The idea was also raised that the faculty *must* have known about >Herm's timeturner, especially the one's whose classes she attended at >the same time. If so then Snape must of known, and Dumbledore's plan >for allowing Sirius to escape was really dangerous. Not to mention >that line "Unless you're suggesting they were able to be in two >places at once..." I don't agree... My memory of school is that each of my teachers lived in their own little bubble and acted as if no other class existed (and gave us homework accordingly). My guess is that neither Snape, nor Flitwick, nor Sprout, nor anyone knew what or how many classes Hermione was taking and didn't give a dragon's dungball. -- Dave From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Jun 9 00:10:14 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 00:10:14 -0000 Subject: Time-turners Message-ID: <9frph6+o9sq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20429 I writing this sort of spur-of-the-moment, so it's probably not very well thought out. What are the limitations on time-turners? How far back in time can one go? Can anyone go back to any time, or does the time traveller have to be going back to a previous time in their own life? If there is no limitation, and anyone could travel back in time, could the time-turner be used to see just who was at the Potters house the night they died? Could an objective witness go back to the street that Peter Pettigrew supposedly died on and take a look to see that it was Peter who blew up the street and killed the 12 Muggles, and not Sirius? Could Sirius travel back, again with a witness that the MOM would believe, and observe the moment when it was agreed that Peter would be the Secret Keeper? I suppose the quick plot answer would be that there is a time limitation and you could not spin it 30,000 times to go back 10+ years (no attempt on my part to do the math - if you want to, have fun). Any thoughts? From reanna20 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 00:25:43 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spells & Charms; the nature of magic In-Reply-To: <9fnom4+auhs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010609002543.97157.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20430 First, hats off to Amy for the splendiferous "Nature of Magic" post! > I urge those who have observed interesting differences between the > rules and nature of magic in the Potterverse and others to take this > discussion in that direction, by all means. I'll try my best! What I'm gonna do is list the unique things that I've seen JKR do with magic in her books. And a warning; I most certainly haven't read all the books in the world. If someone disagrees with my observations, please say so! I can only go off of what I've read. 1)Wands - The most obvious thing that I've noticed is that wizards/witches need wands in order to perform their magic. I haven't read *any* other fantasy books that required the use of wands in magic. And I must say that I can clearly see why. Wands are easily broken, easily taken, easily lost, easily forgotten. From what I've observed, other magical worlds only require their witches/wizards to have the Talent to perform magic. In fact, they don't even need to move one iota to accurately do magic. Although, it must be noted that wands aren't need all the time to do magic. 2)Shields - Something curious that I've realized is that there doesn't seem to be the equivalent of a personal shield in JKR's world. There's no way to protect yourself from having a spell cast on your when you're sleeping, when you're unaware, when you're dueling another wizard/witch. The wizard/witch must be faster than their opponent to avoid being hit by a spell or else they're out of luck. 3)Duels - Duels in JKR's world seem to be *much* shorter. I mean, if you're a wizard/witch and you want to end the duel as quickly as possible, all you have to do is cast "Avada Kedavra" successfully. In fact, with most formal duels I can't see more than four or five spells being cast before the end. I think part of this has to do with the absence of shields. In other magical worlds, the drill seems to be the opponents throw as many spells at each other trying to wear down the other's shields. Someone's shield eventually fall and WHAM! A simple lightning bolt polishes them off. But in JKR's world, wizards/witches don't have the luxury of time. 4)Potions - Not often do I see potions used in other magical worlds. And if there are potions, they're almost always healing potions or poisons. 5)Odd Powerful Magic - The time turner for example. One almost never sees time travel in traditional magical worlds; it's way too complicated. Apparation is another. In many series', moving someone from one place to another is difficult magic, yet wizards/witches are able to do it easily in JKR's world. There aren't many equivalents of Animagi. If a person can shapeshift, it's normally because it's part of their heritage (Jennifer Roberson's Cheysuli series, Huff's Wizard of the Grove series). Just as an aside, I found Dumbledore's quote "Ah music...a magic beyond all we do here" very amusing. There are magical universes in which music is a way to do magic. For example in Tanya Huff's Quarters series, magic can only be done by Bards (capital B). Bards have the unique talent to sing to the five elements of the world: earth, air, fire, water, soul. They are able to manipulate those elements through music. Another author who uses music as magic is Mercedes Lackey in her Bardic Voices series. In that world, Bards are only able to manipulate the feelings, thoughts of their listeners. They can't do anything else (although that is enough!) L.E. Modesitt Jr's Spellsong Cycle series deals with magic similar to JKR's world. Intention, character, internal will are very important. However, instead of learning the correct words and waving wands, the Bard must work out the correct harmonies/melodies. I wonder if Magical Bards exist in JKR's world. You'd think that some musician would implant their wand in their instrument. Like making a violin with their wand in the bow like Hagrid's wand in his umbrella. Hmmm... > There are other magical universes in which a school for > witchcraft and wizardry would be an odd concept. Now that I think about it, that's quite true. One exception is Mercedes Lakcey's Valdemar series. There is a Collegium which teaches students in both magic (the conventional kind) and mind-magic (telepathy, telekinesis, farsight, foresight, fire-starting). And there is a White Winds school which teaches magic as well. In the Quarters series by Huff, students go to school to learn how to accurately use magic to manipulate the elements. In Laurell K. Hamilton's "Nightseer", magickers of all kinds come together at Zeln's school to learn, both positive magic and negative magic. However in other magical worlds, wizards/witches seem to be solitary, unwilling to work with each other. And they tend to take on "apprentices" once in a blue moon. > -The world is full of naturally-occurring magic aside from that > created by humans. Ooo, something else that JKR does differently. Most other magical worlds that I know of don't develop a magical creature menagerie. The only example I can think of is C.S. Lewis' Narnia series. > -It is not possible to bring the dead back to life (GF 36) This is a law that I see consistent in almost every magical world I read about. As the genie in Aladdin said, "It's not a pretty sight! I don't like doing it!" One instance that I can think of that deviates from this rule is in Joel Rosenburg's Guardians of the Flame series. In it, there are specific types of people: wizards, theieves, warriors, elves, dwarves, and clerics. Within this world, if a cleric becomes strong enough, they are able to bring the dead back to life. Granted, it takes tons and tons of time and energy and sacrifices, but it is possible. > -Less definitively, it is not possible to re-ensoul victims of a > Dementor's Kiss (PA 12) Souls are tricky things. There are other authors that have the equivalent of the Dementor's in their worlds. In Mercedes Lackey's Diana Tregard series, there is a nasty known as a Soul Gaki (a actual Japanese myth, I think). Like Dementors, they devour the soul and there is no getting it back. And there are Psivamps which feed off a person's emotions until the person is a dry husk, not able to do anything. However, in other magical worlds the subject of the soul as being "devourable" is not explored often. Souls aren't often stolen like in JKR's world. > A spell can be "deflected" and "rebound," as Voldemort's > attempted Avada Kedavra against Harry in 1981 did (GF 33). Two > spells can collide like billiard balls Interesting thought here...I wonder if spells can be absorbed, changed, and then fired back at the caster. Somehow I think not in JKR's world, but it would be interesting to see... > Making magic uses energy as well. It has too! However, it seems to be less extreme in JKR's world than other magical worlds. And it seems that only certain spells actively "pull" on the wizards/witches energy, like the Patronus spell. Perhaps it's because the Patronus is a manifestation of something inside. It seems strange that we haven't seen a wizard/witch exhausted from casting too many spells. > In others it is a personal quality such as the independence and will > power that enable Harry to resist the Imperius Curse appears to stem > from his independence and will power. Less nobly, Harry is stubborn, > which also stands him in good stead. His inner voice balks at doing > something as pointless as jumping onto the desk just on Moody's say- > so: "Stupid thing to do, really . . . . I don't think I will, > thanks" (GF 15). Hrm, if Harry can resist the Imperius spell, I wonder if he could develop his magical talent to resist other spells. Like the Cheering Charm. Could Harry ignore it like he does the Imperius? What if someone did an "Accio" on him? Could he resist the pull? I hope nobody is too upset that I talked largely of other author's worlds. I just find the differences and similarities fascinating. And if anyone is interested in the series' that I mentioned, email me and I'll let you know which books to start with. I think this is my longest post ever. And the sick thing is that I could go on. But I'll cut myself off here before everyone thinks I've gone absolutely batty... ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/2/2001 " 'I think it was a bit of an overreaction,' said the serpent. 'I mean, first offense and everything. I can't see what's so bad about knowing the difference between good and evil, anyway.' " - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Sat Jun 9 00:33:27 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Carnegie) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 01:33:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British constitution Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20431 08/06/01 00:32:34, "Caius Marcius" wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Demelza" wrote: >> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: >> >> > Question 1: Can anybody tell me how a person becomes Minister of >> > Magic? Because it is mentioned that e.g. Barty Crouch was >believed >> to >> > be the next minitser, but after his son's trial and his wife's >death >> > his popularity went down and so, in the end, the lucky one was >> > Cornelius fudge. But it is never made clear who nominates or >elects >> > the minister. (On the contrary, the Hogwarts Headmaster is >obviously >> > elected by the board of governors) >> > >> >> It's never explained in the series. I assume it is based upon the >UK's >> parliamentary government and how they elect their officials. >Actually >> I wouldn't be terribly surprized if the Ministry of Magic is a part >of >> the UK government, since Fudge did inform the "muggle Minister" >about >> the Black escape from Azkaban implying that the muggle government >is >> aware of the magical population. > >An interesting idea, although I tend to doubt that the Ministers of >Magic form a part of the Muggle governments. I think that it more >likely that they comprise "separate but equal" (i.e., separate but >unequal) powers. Nevertheless, we see at the Quidditch World Cup >that the competing teams are very close to the Muggles nations (with >a few necesary additions, such as Transylvania). The Irish and >Bulgarian fans proudly wave the Muggle flags of their respective >nations. I'd guess that historically, the Minister of Magic was one of the monarch's ministers of government - John Dee for Queen Elizabeth I, perhaps. When the wizards around the world went into hiding, this arrangement ceased to be general knowledge, but the Minister retains that title. As pointed out, the Muggle prime minister knows that there's a Ministry of Magic, but he may not be sure just where it is. I presume that Cornelius Fudge doesn't attend the government's regular meetings with the prime minister and with the queen using an Invisibility Cloak, but who knows? The famously "unwritten" British constitution has a lot of features that don't actually work very well, but that don't cause problems because, usually, people want the system to work and not break down, so no one presses in the wrong places. For instance, the prime ministar appoints archbishops in the church. This ultimately goes back to Henry VIII's unusual approach to reforming the church. A mischievous prime minister could make serious trouble with this power, but in practice it works moderately well. Other countries have come to their present-day constitutional understandings with a great deal more trouble, including bloodshed and warfare, often quite recently, relatively speaking - I'm thinking of Spain and Greece. I suggest that consequently, these states have had more people investing more effort in developing a constitutional settlement with more significant safeguards against trouble than Britain's. The nearest that JKR has her wizards come to acknowledging real-life modern history is having Dumbledore defeat a Dark Wizard named Grindelwald in 1945 (according to his Chocolate Frog card), which at least hints that the European war ending in that year was echoed in the wizarding world. Incidentally, I think we are in the market for German-language anagrams of Grindelwald's name, along the lines of Lord Voldemort's own anagram in English. In practice, the Ministry of Magic _is_ the wizards' government in Britain. It doesn't work particularly well, either. That the popularity of the Minister himself is an issue may not definitely imply that there's a direct plebiscite - but theoretically, the Minister has to be a respected wizard or witch, a good leader for the whole community. Regardless of how the candidate is chosen, only a popular person can do the job. For no particular reason I'll throw in the suggestions of an electoral college of all wizards aged over one hundred, or King Arthur's ancient Sorting Crown. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Sat Jun 9 00:33:30 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Carnegie) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 01:33:30 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20432 07/06/01 04:00:09, Schlobin at aol.com wrote: > >> An incontinent appetite isn't an attractive character trait, >although it's a hard one to get rid of - I know, mine's only >stalemated. It gets harder >> with age - which doesn't apply to Dudley, of course. And >incontinence, or poor education of the palate in children, _is_ >(together with >> inadequate exercise) the primary cause of overweight > > >Uh, there is some role of genetics here..and we would have to >define "overweight". > >I know women who are 140 pounds (5 foot 8 inches) who consider >themselves grossly overweight. In fact, our culture basically sends >the message that unless you're a size 6 (woman) you're >overweight..despite the fact that the average woman is size 14 Right. I think "obese" is defined by the BMA and AMA in terms of the body mass index, height versus weight, but I forget the scale. "Overweight" may or may not be defined in terms of the same formula; broadly, it's where you ask the doctor whether you should try to lose weight and they say "Yes". Average size isn't necessarily ideal. Looking hot or skeletal is overrated; most people make out, anyway. So I think you should listen to your doctor and aim for a long life, reducing your risk of several serious diseases or lethal as you get older - I presume that there's sound epidemiological evidence for every claim that's made of an association between disease and overweight. There is a lower limit on healthy BMI as well. Body mass index is really only crude arithmetical approximation and generalisation, a rule of thumb, but it's a good one. I don't suppose that it does work out the same for everyone, but that isn't the point - the point is to motivate an individual to improve their personal score. And no, it doesn't work for athletes and bodybuilders - muscle is heavy, too, and that throws the numbers off. If you know you're fit, that counts for more than BMI - but you still shouldn't ignore BMI. Since I still haven't read GOF, I won't go looking for the thread about the diet Dudley's been put on, but it won't have a lasting effect if (1) it isn't enough to live on - indefinitely - and (2) Dudley himself doesn't buy into it. Mrs Dursley's described as thin at the start of PS, and by POA she's "bony". If she's achieved this without a diet, I hate her - but she also can't tell Dudley much about how to do it. I ate a whole packet of biscuits tonight. V. bad. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Sat Jun 9 00:33:32 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Carnegie) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 01:33:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley-Bulley or popular kid? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20433 07/06/01 04:40:13, "Saitaina" wrote: >role model to show that the mean kid is the popular kid, but I don't know >what would be perfect. That's the key to anything. You can never nit-pick >too much because you'll never please everyone. > > >Where is it mentioned Dudly as 'popular'? He was a bully and that is the >long and short of it. People did not befriend Harry because they "knew >Dudley" and did want the living daylights beat out of them is the basic gist >of what was said in that section. No where was he named as popular but >extensively named as a bully who several in his school feared. > >"Exactly why Dudley wanted a racing bike was a mystery to Harry, as Dudly >was very fat and hated exercise-unless of course it involved punching >somebody." > >"He was usually the one who held people's arms behind their backs while >Dudley hit them"-regarding Dudley's best friend, Piers Pollykiss. > >"Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd Harry Potter in his baggy >old clothes and broken glasses and nobody liked to disagree with Dudley's >gang." > >Each of these quotes point to the dangerous behavior of a bullying child. Indeed; but that doesn't mean he's unpopular, or that he bullies everyone. While all of the Dursleys are more caricatures than characters - that still bothers me - if we're taking the story seriously, and at face value, then I don't think it's credible that Dudley's gang, all aged ten or eleven, terrorises everyone in their year at school (I presume the year group is their social circle) into ostracising Harry. The other children don't like Harry anyway, because he's "odd" and badly dressed - he's different. They laugh at his hand-me-down clothes. But if Dudley's opinion is a factor, as JKR tells us, I think that's because the children outside Dudley's gang - ones who aren't bullied - _like_ Dudley. They enjoy seeing other kids getting humiliated and assaulted. They admire the bullies' physical strength and mental domination. And they envy all the great toys that Dudley has. While he doesn't like to share anything with Harry, he may well take more of those toys to school than he can play with himself: so, by default, the others kids will get to play with them too. As for how Dudley turns out: I haven't actually read the further adventures of _Flashman_, but I understand that this modern series is a fantastical account of how a school bully gets on in later life :-) I understand that it's actually fairly easy for responsible adults to correct individual cases of bullying between younger children, and to make victimiser and victim act friendly to each other. This seems weird to me, but then I don't know very much about children, really. Dudley's case is trickier to fix because his abusive behaviour isn't just his - it's something that he and his friends like to do together. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From JamiDeise at aol.com Sat Jun 9 01:18:23 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 21:18:23 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spells & Charms; the nature of magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20434 In a message dated 6/8/2001 8:27:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, reanna20 at yahoo.com writes: << 1)Wands - The most obvious thing that I've noticed is that wizards/witches need wands in order to perform their magic. >> I don't think they need the wands, but they do help. We've had several examples of wizards such as Quirrell and Snape performing magic without their wands. Probably, the stronger the wizard, the less they need their wands. But Voldemort still needs his. Maybe the more difficult the spell, the more one needs a wand. Each wand has at its core an item from a magical being -- unicorn tail, phoenix feather, etc., and the wand chooses the witch/wizard, who will never get as good results from another's wand. Which makes me wonder if the younger Weasleys would be much more powerful, had they not all had to use hand-me-down wands. Jami From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 02:14:11 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 19:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Time-turners In-Reply-To: <9frph6+o9sq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010609021411.67120.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20435 --- Zarleycat at aol.com wrote: > If there is no limitation, and anyone could travel > back in time, > could the time-turner be used to see just who was at > the Potters > house the night they died? Well, the main problem with this is you'd have to find someone who would agree to quietly living out those 13 or 14 years in secret until it came back around to where they were before using the Time Turner. Remember, Harry and Hermione didn't use the TT, fix what needed to be fixed, and then use it again to go back to when they were. They had to fully live those three hours again. So the limitations on use of the TT would be however many times you want to stand there turning it (and it would take a *lot* of turns to go back even a week, much less years!), plus you'd have to relive all that time before getting back. And you couldn't run into your past self at all or change the past. Hmm...maybe the Ministry has a special safehouse used by people waiting out their TT time. :) Andrea Maple, phoenix feather, 7 1/2 inches ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Jun 9 02:36:49 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 02:36:49 -0000 Subject: FAT In-Reply-To: <007c01c0efa6$f51e7f00$704e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <9fs241+qjhh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20436 > > B. Are the Dursley's bad parents? or are they just blind to what's in > front of them? I know MANY a parent who doesn't see that their child is a > junvinal delinquent. I have seen it time and again when I was trying to > help them ( I did volunteer work for kids at risk) and the parents refused > or could not see what I was trying to show them. Now yes, that is a bit of > bad parenting, but not completely horrible compared to what many children > have to go through with they're parents. And even in Harry's case, they > were afraid, they were doing what they thought was best to get rid of the > magic. They teqnically did nothing that could get Harry taken away from > them (he was feed, clothed and had a bed) and while it wasn't REALLY the > best thing to do, it was all they knew to do. The Dursleys were abusive, allowing Harry to be beat up by Dudley and his friends, hitting him from time to time, locking him in a cupboard, never celebrating his birthday, never taking him on an outing, and using him as the family scapegoat. Any child who must go to school with his glasses broken all the time is not in a good home. Did he have a bed locked in the cupboard? Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Jun 9 02:41:46 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 02:41:46 -0000 Subject: FAT In-Reply-To: <031c01c0efc4$0f454400$704e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <9fs2da+m5g7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20437 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" wrote: > I'm sorry but, that would not get him taken away in the US. Not feeding him > would but even could soup is food, and that is all the law requires. I know > it sounds horrible but I have seen worse things pass a social services > investigation. I once only had rotten apples and they didn't do a damn > thing against my mother when they came to investigate. > Of course it depends. On the worker, on the day, on the County, on the state how the child abuse laws are interpreted. However, there is no doubt in my mind that Harry was abused/neglected/scapegoated, and that Dudley was spoiled rotten. No child does well when he gets everything he wants, is allowed to beat up and bully another child, is praised for wrongdoing and has no guidance/limits. Susan From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 03:23:23 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 03:23:23 -0000 Subject: Abuse (was FAT) In-Reply-To: <9fs241+qjhh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fs4rb+kpmr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20438 Susan wrote: > The Dursleys were abusive, allowing Harry to be beat up by Dudley and > his friends, hitting him from time to time, locking him in a > cupboard, never celebrating his birthday, never taking him on an > outing, and using him as the family scapegoat. Any child who must go > to school with his glasses broken all the time is not in a good home. > > Did he have a bed locked in the cupboard? Yep. The cupboard =was= his bedroom. He wasn't locked in all the time, but being locked in appears to have been a regular punishment (PS/SS, after the zoo). While you're listing Harry Abuse, don't forget being threatened with having the stuffing knocked out of him (PA), being locked in his bedroom without adequate food (CS), being deprived of any information about or pictures of his parents (geez, most literary orphans at least have a locket portrait) (PS/SS), being beaten with a stick and trapped up a tree for several hours (PA; those are both Marge, but V & P permitted it), being denied his own mail (PS/SS), not having clothes that fit (PA, GF), being called only "you" and "boy" except when they're trying to bribe him, being allowed to think he's crazy rather than knowing the truth about who he is (PS/SS), and being forced to diet even though he's 14 years old and underweight (GF). I'm sure I've left a few things out. One of the saddest lines in all of the books is "and he would be spending his birthday pretending not to exist," CS 1. Maybe it's one reason I stuck with CS despite the looksism-related irritations of that first chapter. Amy Z From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 9 03:33:19 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 03:33:19 -0000 Subject: Secret Powers Held in Thrall (filk) Message-ID: <9fs5dv+jkem@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20439 Secret Powers Held in Thrall (from CoS, Chap. 11) (To the tune of Flowers on the Wall) Dedicated to Catherine THE SCENE: The Great Hall, where Professor Lockhart's dueling club is holding its premiere meeting) HARRY We had a need, Lockhart decreed To learn how wizards duel But Snape outwit that hopeless git He's such an utter fool Some were afraid when Malfoy made A snake poised to attack But with a hiss I said, "Stop this!" And it kept itself back CHORUS OF HUFFLEPUFF STUDENTS (fearfully) Secret powers held in thrall Justin Fletchley saw it all Harry Potter wants to slay Anyone who's in his way With his Parseltongue phraseology, he foments snakes And Slytherin's heir is now wide-awake (HERMIONE and RON pull HARRY aside) RON (to HARRY) It's appropos we did not know With snakes you can converse Now don't get mad, but this is bad It couldn't be much worse HERMIONE (to HARRY) Lord Salazar, whose somber star Still glitters in our school, Won foremost fame when with the name Of Parselmouth he ruled HARRY (to himself) Secret powers I've in thrall I hear voices through the wall With serpents I sometimes chat What about the Sorting Hat? Last year it told me that I should be in Slytherin Looks like I'm the Heir ? I just can't win! HUFFLEPUFF STUDENTS We greatly fear if we go near That Potter guy again We might witness how all go hiss In Chambers' Secret Den HARRY But I'm not going to harm you! HUFFLEPUFF STUDENTS Don't believe what he just said! He's the heir of Slytherin, that's the word from George and Fred. (Enter GEORGE & FRED) GEORGE AND FRED (tongues firmly in cheek) Secret powers he's in thrall Harry craves to kill us all He will start his brand-new reign Forcing folks to scream with pain Look out, `cause we've some Serious Evil comin' through He must renamed as You-Know-Who-Two He must renamed as You-Know-Who-Two (Exit severally, with GEORGE and FRED escorting HARRY while laughing uproariously) - CMC From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com Sat Jun 9 04:07:31 2001 From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle at bigpond.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 04:07:31 -0000 Subject: Time-turners In-Reply-To: <9frph6+o9sq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fs7e3+rd55@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20440 Zarleycat wrote: What are the limitations on time-turners? How far back in time can one go? Can anyone go back to any time, or does the time traveller have to be going back to a previous time in their own life? Andrea wrote: So the limitations on use of the TT would be however many times you want to stand there turning it (and it would take a *lot* of turns to go back even a week, much less years!), plus you'd have to relive all that time before getting back. And you couldn't run into your past self at all or change the past. Hmm...maybe the Ministry has a special safehouse used by people waiting out their TT time. :) I'm responding: I think that there would be very strict guidelines (set by MOM or something higher and of international standing) on the use of the timeturner, not necessarily because of the TT itself, but because of the future consequences of any actions you may do while back in the past. If there was not, why doesn't someone go back and kill Tom Riddle before he turned bad ? Rowena From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 04:24:22 2001 From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (Vicki Granger) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 04:24:22 -0000 Subject: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic In-Reply-To: <20010609002543.97157.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fs8dm+u9ef@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20441 *2)Shields - Something curious that I've realized is that there doesn't seem to be the equivalent of a personal shield in JKR's world. There's no way to protect yourself from having a spell cast on your when you're sleeping, when you're unaware, when you're dueling another wizard/witch. The wizard/witch must be faster than their opponent to avoid being hit by a spell or else they're out of luck. ~There is a small shield but it's hardly worth mentioning... The Sheild Charm casts a temporary, invisible wallthat deflects minor curses (GoF31). Maybe in Harry's world the magic is so advanced that the limits of shielding have been passed. There are suggestions that spells can be blocked by counter spells if you're quick but nothing that is long-lasting and no proper examples. In the books I'm reading at the moment shields are definitely a MAJOR thing (The Obernewtyn Chronicles - Isobelle Carmody). *5)Odd Powerful Magic - There aren't many equivalents of Animagi. If a person can shapeshift, it's normally because it's part of their heritage (Jennifer Roberson's Cheysuli series, Huff's Wizard of the Grove series). ~One other example is in Tamora Pierce's 'The Immortals' Quartet. >From the end of the second book on the main character, Daine, can change into full animals, turn parts of herself into animal parts (eagle eyes, grow wings) or turn into a combo of animals! This is much better than Animagi because there is no limit to what can be done bar energy drainage. Another example is the Animorph books where they have to aquire the DNA first but that's a bit different... *There are other magical universes in which a school for witchcraft and wizardry would be an odd concept. ~Tamora Pierce and Isobelle Carmody both have schools and other things where the magi work together and learn, although Isobelle Carmody is more fantasy than magic because she deals more with paranormal abilities but there are still many paralells. Magi are also consiered an army factor in Tamora Pierce's books. *It is not possible to bring the dead back to life (GF 36) ~One example of bringing the dead back to life in a book is in Tamora Pierce's books, Thom brings back the bad guy to prove he is the most powerful. Well, that's my contribution to this discussion... it's basically just a list of 2 main books that have some wierd stuff in them ;-) Oh well... ~*Vicki*~ From joym999 at aol.com Sat Jun 9 04:25:32 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 04:25:32 -0000 Subject: child abuse; was Re: FAT In-Reply-To: <20010608150523.65442.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fs8fs+9n5e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20442 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > > --- catherine at c... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 6/7/2001 7:12:04 PM Eastern > > Daylight Time, > > > saitaina at w... writes: > > > > > > << They teqnically did nothing that could get > > Harry taken away from > > > them (he was feed, clothed and had a bed) and > > while it wasn't > > REALLY the > > > best thing to do, it was all they knew to do. >> > > > > > > Locking him in a room with bars on the windows and > > feeding him cold > > soup and > > > bread once a day would get him taken away. At > > least in the U.S. [snip] > I'm afraid I have to disagree with this one from > personal experience. The first day that my 5-year-old > went to school the teacher called Social Services on > me based on the fact that my daughter had 4-day old > cat scratches on her arm and a VERY(2+ years old) old > scar in the middle of her back. I don't know about > the UK but in the US system teachers are almost > fanatical(sometimes) about CPS(Child Protective > Sevices) and SS and about calling them in for > "possible abuse". Just the fact that Harry never > seemed to have any new clothes or glasses would be > cause for the average teacher to call CPS on neglect > charges, let alone the fact that he was constantly > bruised from Dudley beating on him. The fact that > Dudley was always better fed and clothed would have > been a major tip-off to a teacher as well. > Danette has a point, but at the same time we have to remember 2 things: 1. The efficiencies of agencies which deal w/ child abuse vary widely in effectiveness from place to place; and have changed considerably over the past 20 or 30 years. The pre-Hogwarts part of Harrys life took place before 1991, or over 10 years ago. Maybe Little Whinging did not hire its first Child Protection Officer until 1993. 2. Much as we do not like to admit it, THE HP BOOKS ARE WORKS OF FICTION. The authorities did not intervene in the Dursleys treatment of Harry because JKR wrote it that way. I have said this many times before, but I believe that the somewhat unbelievable meanness of the Dursleys may be a kind of literary tribute by JKR to Roald Dahl, whose books are full of sadistic parents and guardians just like the Dursleys. Dahl often exaggerated negative things for effect (e.g. the mean parents and headmistress in Matilda, and Charlies poverty in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory) --Joywitch From joym999 at aol.com Sat Jun 9 04:31:30 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 04:31:30 -0000 Subject: nitpick and Grunnings, was Re: FAT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9fs8r2+e6q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20443 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Meredith Wilson wrote: > It is illegal > to deny someone a job based on race, sex, sexual orientation, etc, but it is > perfectly fine to deny someone a job in this country because they are fat. > And to me, that is wrong. Not sure what country you are talking about, but in the U.S. it is perfectly legal to deny someone a job because of their sexual orientation (real or perceived) in all but about a dozen states. And, of course you are right that job discrimination against fat people is both legal and common. Good thing Dudley can pretty much count on inheriting Grunnings drill company, that is if Vernon owns it. Does it say anywhere if it is a family business or if Vernon is just an employee? --Joywitch From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 04:39:16 2001 From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (Vicki Granger) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 04:39:16 -0000 Subject: Time-turners In-Reply-To: <9frph6+o9sq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fs99k+oas6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20444 *I suppose the quick plot answer would be that there is a time limitation and you could not spin it 30,000 times to go back 10+ years (no attempt on my part to do the math - if you want to, have fun). ~87600 turns for ten 365 day years! (24 hours a day x 365 days a year x 10 years) (i used the computers calculator) add a couple of 24's for appropriate leap years and then you could always loose count! But there may be a spell that could turn it a certain number of times, or there could be a more powerful version of the time turner (after all, Herm's was only for classes). But if this were possible someone would have already tried it, right? And there's the thing about how they would have to wait for their actual year to roll around again... There's another issue as well, how would you feel going back to see what really happened at the Potters' house, having the opportunity to save their lives but not because of the implications and living with the knowlege that you could have prevented Harry becoming an orphan? ~*Vicki*~ From saitaina at wizzards.net Sat Jun 9 04:43:15 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 21:43:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] nitpick and Grunnings, was Re: FAT References: <9fs8r2+e6q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <003901c0f09e$b3cf9a40$614f28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20445 Umm, dear, in the US it is a FEDERAL law that you cannot deney a job due to sexual orientation....spet maybe the military. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 9:31 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] nitpick and Grunnings, was Re: FAT > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Meredith Wilson > wrote: > > It is illegal > > to deny someone a job based on race, sex, sexual orientation, etc, > but it is > > perfectly fine to deny someone a job in this country because they > are fat. > > And to me, that is wrong. > > Not sure what country you are talking about, but in the U.S. it is > perfectly legal to deny someone a job because of their sexual > orientation (real or perceived) in all but about a dozen states. > > And, of course you are right that job discrimination against fat > people is both legal and common. > > Good thing Dudley can pretty much count on inheriting Grunnings drill > company, that is if Vernon owns it. Does it say anywhere if it is a > family business or if Vernon is just an employee? > > --Joywitch > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Sat Jun 9 05:45:45 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 01:45:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] nitpick and Grunnings, was Re: FAT Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20446 A director of a company like grunnings is usually an officer/ employee-a high ranking one, but not an "owner" other than a part-shareholder. Personally, in my universe I think Grunnings is another muggle holding in the Malfoy family of companies. -------------------------- Please reply to htandy at carltonfields.com Confidential: This e-mail may contain a communication protected by the attorney-client privilege. If you do not expect such a communication from Heidi Howard Tandy, please delete this message without reading it or any attachment, and then notify htandy at carltonfields.com of this inadvertent mis-delivery. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: joym999 at aol.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat Jun 09 00:31:30 2001 Subject: [HPforGrownups] nitpick and Grunnings, was Re: FAT Real-To: joym999 at aol.com --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Meredith Wilson wrote: > It is illegal > to deny someone a job based on race, sex, sexual orientation, etc, but it is > perfectly fine to deny someone a job in this country because they are fat. > And to me, that is wrong. Not sure what country you are talking about, but in the U.S. it is perfectly legal to deny someone a job because of their sexual orientation (real or perceived) in all but about a dozen states. And, of course you are right that job discrimination against fat people is both legal and common. Good thing Dudley can pretty much count on inheriting Grunnings drill company, that is if Vernon owns it. Does it say anywhere if it is a family business or if Vernon is just an employee? --Joywitch _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 09:06:26 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 02:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time-turners In-Reply-To: <9fs99k+oas6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010609090626.94191.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20447 > There's another issue as well, how would you feel > going back to see > what really happened at the Potters' house, having > the opportunity to > save their lives but not because of the implications > and living with > the knowlege that you could have prevented Harry > becoming an orphan? > > ~*Vicki*~ > > I think I'd be more likely to go to the Dursley's and try to convice Dubledore to let me adopt Harry rather than let him leave the boy with his aunt and uncle personally. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 09:09:24 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 02:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] child abuse; was Re: FAT In-Reply-To: <9fs8fs+9n5e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010609090924.94521.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20448 --- joym999 at aol.com wrote: > 1. The efficiencies of agencies which deal w/ child > abuse vary > widely in effectiveness from place to place; and > have changed > considerably over the past 20 or 30 years. The > pre-Hogwarts part of > Harrys life took place before 1991, or over 10 years > ago. Maybe > Little Whinging did not hire its first Child > Protection Officer until > 1993. > > 2. Much as we do not like to admit it, THE HP BOOKS > ARE WORKS OF > FICTION. The authorities did not intervene in the > Dursleys treatment > of Harry because JKR wrote it that way. I have said I hate to admit it but Joywitch is right on that count. It doesn't stop me from being a little ticked though you know? :) Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 09:20:21 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 02:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wands was :Spells & Charms; the nature of magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010609092021.74576.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20449 --- JamiDeise at aol.com wrote: >Each wand has at its core an item from a magical > being -- unicorn tail, > phoenix feather, etc., and the wand chooses the > witch/wizard, who will never > get as good results from another's wand. Which makes > me wonder if the younger > Weasleys would be much more powerful, had they not > all had to use > hand-me-down wands. > > Jami > Well Ron does seem to do a lot better when he gets his old wand replaced (PoA) so I would think you are right on that count. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Sat Jun 9 10:45:03 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 10:45:03 -0000 Subject: FAT and looks In-Reply-To: <9fs4rb+kpmr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fsunf+91vq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20450 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > One of the saddest lines in all of the books is "and he would be > spending his birthday pretending not to exist," CS 1. Maybe it's one > reason I stuck with CS despite the looksism-related irritations of > that first chapter. > > Amy Z Looksism - lovely word! I feel that that comes in other ways, particularly with the Slytherins such as Millicent Bulstrode as well as Crabbe and Goyle. It's odd when some of the adult characters are more carefully described - Narcissa Malfoy is good-looking, Hagrid superficially scary, Karkaroff smiles with the mouth only, and so forth. I've kept out of the debate largely because I'm not sure how much Dudley's fatness actually affects real children's perceptions of themselves and others, but I don't like it when, say, the way Millicent's looks are described somehow implies her character is bad. David, still thin except where he's not From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 12:01:41 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 12:01:41 -0000 Subject: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic In-Reply-To: <9fs8dm+u9ef@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ft375+o39e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20451 Vicki Granger (Hermione's little sister?) wrote: > ~There is a small shield but it's hardly worth mentioning... The > Sheild Charm casts a temporary, invisible wallthat deflects minor > curses (GoF31). Maybe in Harry's world the magic is so advanced that > the limits of shielding have been passed. There are suggestions that > spells can be blocked by counter spells if you're quick but nothing > that is long-lasting and no proper examples. The Shield Charm may be very much worth mentioning. As of year 4 they haven't learned it in class, and Harry has trouble mastering it in his pre-3rd-task cramming; perhaps it's very difficult. Advanced wizards might use it all the time, though; ditto for counterspells, which they only just start learning in year 4 under Moody (the implication is that Avada Kedavra might be unusual in having no known countercharm). I'd definitely put the Shield Charm on the list of Things We'll Probably See More Of. Amy Z ----------------------------------------------------- "Dumbledore, you know what that woman =is=?" "I consider her to be a very able Headmistress-- and an excellent dancer," said Dumbledore quietly. -HP and the Goblet of Fire ----------------------------------------------------- From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Jun 9 12:47:29 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 12:47:29 -0000 Subject: child abuse; was Re: FAT In-Reply-To: <9fs8fs+9n5e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ft5t1+pdi4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20452 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > 2. Much as we do not like to admit it, THE HP BOOKS ARE WORKS OF > FICTION. The authorities did not intervene in the Dursleys treatment > of Harry because JKR wrote it that way. I have said this many times > before, but I believe that the somewhat unbelievable meanness of the > Dursleys may be a kind of literary tribute by JKR to Roald Dahl, > whose books are full of sadistic parents and guardians just like the > Dursleys. Dahl often exaggerated negative things for effect (e.g. > the mean parents and headmistress in Matilda, and Charlies poverty in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory)> That is very true, and I am very much aware of that. I suppose that is also why I laughed at the Ton-Tongue Toffee incident (and re read it about 10 times), even though others thought it was mean, and why I cannot wait to see Harry use magic against Dudley, as JKR hinted at in an online chat. We love to hate the Dursleys and want to see them get what they deserve because they do mirror real life. The sad truth is that there are many parents out there who are much worse than the Dursleys, and bullies much meaner than Dudley and Draco, and teachers more vicious than Snape (a lovely man was arrested here in NYC for sodomizing his fifth grade male students just a few weeks ago). We cross our fingers and hope that the Dursleys will be severely punished, or that Harry will get to live with Sirius, or even that the Dursleys will become better people somehow. Fiction can give us a sense of justice that real life, sadly, cannot. I am not one to wish harm on other people in reality (what goes around comes around, IMO), but in Harry's world I sure hope the Dursleys get it good for abusing our dear hero the way they have! --jenny from ravenclaw***************************** From Lindsay at stirton.net Sat Jun 9 13:23:23 2001 From: Lindsay at stirton.net (Lindsay Stirton) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 08:23:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time-turners In-Reply-To: <9fs7e3+rd55@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20453 I imagine the time-turner to be a bit like a clockwork device, so that, like a watch, you can only wind it so far without breaking it. Of course, Japanese wizards might invent a cheap black plastic digital time-turner that runs off eclectricity! From tabouli at unite.com.au Sat Jun 9 15:22:36 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 01:22:36 +1000 Subject: Of cliches and characterisation References: <992094215.593.67897.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002e01c0f0f8$1c804d60$1691aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 20454 I haven't read right back to the beginning of the "Fat" thread (just resubscribed), but in the ones I've read no-one mentioned that JKR herself describes herself as "almost circular" when she was about Dudley's age. I'd guess that some of her own gloom and humiliation at being overweight as a child is coming out in her portrayal of Dudley. Self-rejection, projection, projection. To be honest, I don't mind her portrayal of the Dursleys. They're a bit cartoonish, but hey, the villains in a child's life are easier to deal with if s/he can caricature them into a box and push them aside. The world is by no means empty of snobbish, short-sighted, indulgent parents who favour one child over another. Moreover, in a lot of ways they're there to provide a contrasting frame for the stories, highlighting the contrast between the muggle and magical worlds. Crabbe and Goyle bother me a lot more. Compared with them, the Dursleys are positively multidimensional. Whenever Malfoy pops up, the smart, nasty villain flanked by two stupid but brawny henchmen, I wince. Did JKR cut them out of a cereal packet or something? It's not as if she isn't capable of inventing interesting villains... Snape, now, there's a man with a bit of intrigue. But I don't buy this vampire theory: I agree with whoever said there's more than enough mystery about Snape already. He'd be one animagus/creature too many, and I think that his behaviour to date definitely suggests a tragic past with more personal overtones... Returning to JKR's political incorrectness, I have to say that I've long thought she was going out of her way to Shatter Stereotypes and not *quite* pulling it off. Deliberately making a lot of the bad/stupid characters blond. Lavishly scattering non Anglo characters to and fro to be culturally inclusive but then either running screaming from making them actually do anything significant (because of course if an Ethnic Character did anything even faintly "bad" that would be Racist!). Pointedly making the swotty nerdy character par excellence NOT wear glasses. Trumpeting Hermione as her Strong Female Character but then having her go to pieces in crises, and having males as the main players in the action throughout. Still, it's a treacherous path for authors negotiating between stereotyping, portraying the world as it "actually is" (?), and books as vehicle for hopelessly implausible politically correct preaching. One of the things I like about JKR is that the moral lessons in her books are reasonably subtle and built in, rather than flashing in lurid neon on every page and chasing the children away... From catz109 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 15:38:50 2001 From: catz109 at hotmail.com (catz109 at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 15:38:50 -0000 Subject: Of cliches and characterisation In-Reply-To: <002e01c0f0f8$1c804d60$1691aecb@price> Message-ID: <9ftfua+opmn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20455 To be honest, I never even *thought* about half of these topics when I first read the books. The fact that Dudley is fat, and the over-use of the word 'fat' in the books never even stuck in mind, let alone the 'main characters are boys', and 'the bad boys are blond' arguments. It's nice to have something to think about, but maybe most of you are thinking about it a little too much? There are some really interesting and plausible ideas, like snape is a vampire etc...Which makes me wonder- when you lot first read the books, did you just read it, and think "Oh no, that isn't right, JKR called Dudley fat" or "How come the nerdy ones all wear glasses" and the such like? Just interested. *~Rebekah~* From lilith_snape at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 16:10:16 2001 From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 16:10:16 -0000 Subject: Of cliches and characterisation In-Reply-To: <9ftfua+opmn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fthp8+tuui@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20456 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catz109 at h... wrote: > To be honest, I never even *thought* about half of these topics when > I first read the books. The fact that Dudley is fat, and the over- use > of the word 'fat' in the books never even stuck in mind, let alone > the 'main characters are boys', and 'the bad boys are blond' > arguments. It's nice to have something to think about, but maybe most > of you are thinking about it a little too much? I'm not the right person to answer this really, since I haven't been a part of the discussion but I throw in some comments anyway. The fact that the main characters are boys was a reason for me to be VERY sceptical to the Harry Potter books in the first place, I waited until the third book was translated into Swedish (not long ago) before I reluctantly opened the first one and got stuck. It has bothered me that it's about boy's mostly because I'm cynical and educated enough in Gender Studies, Feminism and Political Strategies (yeah, you have your very own Feminist one the list!) to know that a book about Miss Potter wouldn't sell. In fact, it wouldn't get allowed to get published in most of the cases. Publishers tells their authors to avoid too many girls since that scares the boys off. It doesn't bother me that boys are the main characters, but it bothers me that the few girls JKR manage to put into the story is poorly stereotypical- don't get me started! > There are some really interesting and plausible ideas, like snape is > a vampire etc...Which makes me wonder- when you lot first read the > books, did you just read it, and think "Oh no, that isn't right, JKR > called Dudley fat" or "How come the nerdy ones all wear glasses" and > the such like? Just interested. > If you have survived nine school years of constant comments about your weight and the fact that you had to wear glasses, you *do* notice these things. People tend to be overly sensitive about things that comes close to their own "faults". I cursed JKR while reading about Dudley and Millicent Bulstrode because what she did, especially in Millicent's case, was sending her off with the description as ugly and fat and thereby also evil. Some Jewish people I know reacted negatively in the descriptions of Snape- crooked nose, dark, clever- and found him similar to the stereotypical Jew. I don't know, this is just the way people behave and react. All the time, not only because we overanalyse the HP books... > *~Rebekah~* Lilith From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu Sat Jun 9 16:55:36 2001 From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Of cliches and characterisation In-Reply-To: <9ftfua+opmn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20457 On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 catz109 at hotmail.com wrote: > There are some really interesting and plausible ideas, like snape is > a vampire etc...Which makes me wonder- when you lot first read the > books, did you just read it, and think "Oh no, that isn't right, JKR > called Dudley fat" or "How come the nerdy ones all wear glasses" and > the such like? Just interested. As Lilith mentioned, I think it depends a lot on what sorts of things you *always* notice when you read. For me, it's automatic to read and make observations on gender portrayals, so that was mainly what I noticed the first time I read through them. I also noticed things related to Classics (spell etymologies in particular, of course), since again that's something I do pretty much every time I read. But other observations had to wait until I read the books again, or I never made them at all until others mentioned them on one of the HP lists. Everyone has different things they notice when they read. For someone who, unlike me, doesn't pay attention to gender things, they could probably read all the books and never notice what JKR does with gender, but that same person might notice the uses of hair color (like blondness) that never made any conscious impression on me. And of course, it depends how casually one read them the first time. I read them quite cursorily, but perhaps others gave more attention to it. The more carefully you read, the more of these things you will notice. And I do think it's just careful reading and analysis, not 'reading too much into it'. --jen :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 17:29:56 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 17:29:56 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Of cliches and characterisation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20458 Rebekah wrote: >To be honest, I never even *thought* about half of these topics when >I first read the books. The fact that Dudley is fat, and the over-use >of the word 'fat' in the books never even stuck in mind, let alone >the 'main characters are boys', and 'the bad boys are blond' >arguments. It's nice to have something to think about, but maybe most >of you are thinking about it a little too much? > >There are some really interesting and plausible ideas, like snape is >a vampire etc...Which makes me wonder- when you lot first read the >books, did you just read it, and think "Oh no, that isn't right, JKR >called Dudley fat" or "How come the nerdy ones all wear glasses" and >the such like? Just interested. Great question! To be quite honest, I didn't think about half of this stuff when I was re-reading Books 1-3 in relative isolation... prior to GoF, I only had my students to talk to, and they are surprisingly adept at picking up subtleties. Like FITD--I first learned of *that* from a bunch of seventh and eighth graders, not Penny (although she helped me see that they weren't just pulling my leg). ;-) Yet my students delight in the Dursleys for the same reason that they delight in Roald Dahl's exaggerated characters. You'd be surprised at children's ability to discern between fiction and real life. Recent trends that show this "loss of judgment" in the present generation note the symptom but not the disease--when children are raised by unlimited television viewing, unlimited video game playing, and unlimited use of the Internet, of course that becomes their reality. (Electronic media may make convenient babysitters for harried and self-absorbed postmodern parents, but they certainly are not programmed to teach morality.) Another issue that's been bothering me: I don't think it's valid to say that JKR is being intentionally PC by sprinkling in so-called "ethnic" characters. I'm sure the books would have sold just as well if all the characters had been white, just like a lot of children's books with an all-white cast sell well. (Which is why I laugh at those who bemoan the tide of multiculturalism in kidlit and education in general--they must not have been to the children's section in their local Borders lately.) I know the selling point of the books for me was not the "diversity" inherent in them. Forced multiculturalism is not authentic IMO and useless in teaching children how to live. I would have still used HP in the classroom even if there were no non-white characters, although perhaps fielding the question again that my fifth-grade valedictorian asked in a quiet voice when we finished reading *Anne of Green Gables*--"were there any black people living back then?" Another kid in passing: "No, we were all slaves." Both question and answer pricked me... the innocence of the question, the inaccuracy of the answer. My students (with the exception of one child, my classes are entirely black and Hispanic kids--we also have a sprinkling of Vietnamese, Laotian, Hmong, and Middle Eastern kids) largely identify with the main characters in the HP series for the same reason I do--we know them better. So my girls tend to identify with Hermione (as I do), my boys with Harry, Ron, or even Draco. But it does make them feel better to know that there *are* people like them in this world, that their presence hasn't been ignored or utterly eradicated. They're still young yet, but one day they'll know what it's like to be objectified... I'm glad to say it hasn't happened as often for me as it does for my grandmother, but it does happen. A lot. Either you're a purple people-eater... or the Invisible Man. So it was a nice surprise and almost a shock for me when I noticed that there were characters of different races--and it shattered some stereotypes I had--because I never thought that England was all that diverse of a place. Quite the contrary. I really like the way Rowling handles ethnicity--she mentions it, then lets the kids act like all the other kids instead of venturing into dangerous ethnic stereotypes like too many writers do. Not all Asian kids are passive and whiz-kid smart. Not all black kids are loud and have bad diction. Not all redheads have fiery tempers. Not all the overweight kids are bullies or bullied. The unspoken message I got was: "They're just kids, gosh darn it, and let's just get on with the business of learning magic and growing up." Having said that, I have noticed an undertone in the rhetoric of those who complain that multiculturalists always want to make *everything* non-Western, gays always want their orientation represented, and feminists want gender stereotyping eradicated. I think I do understand the understone--I translate it as "not everything is *about* you and your kind"--which is actually a true statement, but I do a considerable amount of head-scratching over the unspoken sentiment attached to it. If times change, but people don't, then those who have a problem with people who do not fit into their cookie-cutter view of what humanity ought to look like and act like must find other ways, means, and terms to express their dissent. In Harry Potter and in real life, I'm far less interested in quotas than I am in truth in representation. I've been told what I "ought" to do as a writer of fiction ever since I began publishing and converted to Christianity in the same year... and I resent it. I think a writer's job is to always tell the truth at any cost... and so much writing in real life is *not* the truth, but half-truths, lies, d--ned lies, and statistics which all contradict each other. Jo Rowling has no social obligations to *anyone*. She's a storyteller, not a genie. I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face... which, looking in the mirror, would be quite a feat indeed. ;-) After all, when your work includes this sort of truth in representation of the world you live in, that's not politically correct IMNSHO. It's just plain *correct*. --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From JamiDeise at aol.com Sat Jun 9 17:49:44 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 13:49:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] nitpick and Grunnings, was Re: FAT Message-ID: <61.ee637ff.2853bbb8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20459 In a message dated 6/9/2001 12:46:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, saitaina at wizzards.net writes: << Umm, dear, in the US it is a FEDERAL law that you cannot deney a job due to sexual orientation....spet maybe the military. >> sorry to be OT, but there is no federal law prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation, be it on the job or in housing. While some states and cities have passed laws prohibiting this kind of discrimination, it is not a federal law. Conservatives tend to whine about "gays wanting special rights," when this topic comes up, as if the ability to live and work where you want is special. Jami From banjoken at optonline.net Sat Jun 9 17:55:24 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 17:55:24 -0000 Subject: Of cliches and characterisation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ftnuc+5gni@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20460 As one of my high school English teachers once said, you bring your own baggage to whatever you read. Some people are going to latch on to how much Dudley's weight is emphasized, some are going to take note of how gender is used, some are going to wonder about the bad parenting of the Dursley's, and some are just going to relax and enjoy the story. Personally, I fall into the latter category. I didn't notice any of those issues that have been brought up here when I was reading. I just like a good story and a world I can lose myself in for a few hours. I've never really gone for deep analysis of those kind of issues, or looking for symbolism, or anything like that (I've also never done well in English Lit classes). I guess I'm not the most critical of readers, but I find digging to much into anything will take some of the fun out of it. On the other hand, I love talking about the story, and the world JKR has created. I've really enjoyed the Snape/vampire discussion. I don't know how likely it is, but it sure is fun to talk about! Ken From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Sat Jun 9 18:18:21 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 18:18:21 -0000 Subject: Snape the Vampire, Crabbe and Goyle Trolls? In-Reply-To: <002e01c0f0f8$1c804d60$1691aecb@price> Message-ID: <9ftp9d+30mt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20461 This Vampire theory has been fascinating, although like others I find myself somewhat sceptical. However it occured to me that Crabbe and Goyle have been likened to Trolls, probably just as much as Snape has to a Bat. They look like trolls, talk like trolls (point and grunt) and they're certainly not too bright. How many times do we hear them "chuckle trollishly" or somesuch through the books? Is it just that JKR likes to liken her characters to animals/beasts, or do people think we've got a pair of part-trolls on our hands too? Florence From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 18:36:55 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 11:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Of cliches and characterisation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010609183655.84011.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20462 > Rebekah wrote: > To be honest, I never even *thought* about half of > these topics when > I first read the books. [snip] > There are some really interesting and plausible > ideas, like snape is > a vampire etc...Which makes me wonder- when you lot > first read the > books, did you just read it, and think "Oh no, that > isn't right, JKR > called Dudley fat" or "How come the nerdy ones all > wear glasses" and > the such like? Just interested. The first time I read the books? Heck no I didn't think about all of this! I enjoyed a captivating story about a boy wizard and his friends. However, the second, third, fourth, and so on times I read it, I started picking up more subtleties and noticing things I never noticed before. Each time I read one of the books again, I notice something new. I think it's safe to say that few people on this list have restricted themselves to a mere one or even two readings. The people I've talked to have re-read many many times, and it's as we begin to pick up on these little points that we fall into these amazingly involved discussions. If we were just reading the books and not talking about them much beyond "Oh, I just loved that last Harry Potter book!", then probably a lot of these ideas would never even occur to us. I know that I am more attuned to subtleties in the books after being immersed in all of the wonderful discussions from this group. After reading the Snape-as-vampire discussion, I reread SS/PS and noticed a lot of minor points that never occurred to me *before*, but could now be viewed in light of the possible vampirism of our favorite Potions Master. All that said, I've noticed that whenever a thread develops, such as the Snape-as-vampire or Fat stereotypes, and a really interesting discussion gets going, someone comes in and says, "I think you're reading too much into this. It's just a piece of fiction." That's certainly true, can't deny it. ;) But this is a *discussion* group. I joined it because it advertised having intelligent discussions among adults about the HP books. If all of our questions could be solved by merely saying, "Well, it's just a piece of fiction and that's how JKR wanted it to go," then we wouldn't all be here. Of course that's the obvious answer, but this group seems to revel in going far beyond the obvious and mundane explanations. It's a tribute to JKR's amazing skills that we *can* disect everything like this - a lesser writer wouldn't have nearly as many subtleties in her writing, and we would exhaust all possible avenues of discussion in short order. Instead, we get to have this wonderful group! Yes, we read to much into things. And yes, it's just a work of fiction. But reading too much into this particular work of fiction is what this group is all about. ;) Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From purplefanta at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 19:05:00 2001 From: purplefanta at yahoo.com (purplefanta at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:05:00 -0000 Subject: Fat Message-ID: <9fts0s+ef74@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20463 Well, I have been stayig out of this discussion, but now I feel obligated to at least mention my view. I am 20 years old (still remember the days of high school vividly) and very overweight. However, I never once felt offended by the fact that Dudley is overweight. Likewise, I am an English major in college and really didn't focus on the presence or lack of minorities. I just wanted to make it clear that it isn't "just" the fat readers who are offended and the "skinny" readers who aren't. Rather, I believe that most readers use the "Readers Response" method of reading. You take what you read and fill in the blanks with what you know about life. I agree that the whole reason this group is exists is to over- analyze the books, but I also believe that everything that we write must be taken with a grain of salt. Each one of us not only brings our own personal baggage to the HP books, but also to the internet each time we log on. That is why respect is so important. JKR has developed a world for us to enjoy. We can analyze it, dissect it, critique it, and theorize about it all we want. But we can't change that world, and IMO, cannot blame JKR for not catering to our own personal beliefs. What that means, I don't know. Each of us has to make that line for him or herself. I, for one, accept the world as is and try to look towards the future rather than dwell on what is. Melissa (Probably one of the largest people in the group) From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Jun 9 19:27:42 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:27:42 -0000 Subject: Of cliches and characterisation In-Reply-To: <20010609183655.84011.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fttbe+17jc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20464 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea wrote: > > It's a tribute to JKR's amazing skills that we *can* > disect everything like this - a lesser writer wouldn't > have nearly as many subtleties in her writing, and we > would exhaust all possible avenues of discussion in > short order. Instead, we get to have this wonderful > group! Yes, we read to much into things. And yes, > it's just a work of fiction. But reading too much > into this particular work of fiction is what this > group is all about. ;) Here, here, Andrea! I am completely agreeing with you! I was so excited to find this group because I was the only adult I knew who couldn't stop reading HP and I needed to talk about and analyze the series. When people say "Remember, it's *just* fiction", I get annoyed, because the HP series has obviously become a lot more than that to millions of people. Kids are actually turning away from their tv shows to read these books - that's amazing. The references to other literature and history that JKR makes throughout the stories is simply awesome and she inspires me to to write my own stories and to strive to be a better teacher as well. I have also improved my own vocabulary and learned some Latin roots. Analyzing literature is fun and challenging to me. Whenever I post something, I choose my words carefully because I know someone else will post something right back to tear my arguments to shreds - I love it. It's good for me to work on defending and expressing myself in the best way possible. When someone refers to something I said or agrees with me, I think "Ha! I explained that well!" As a high school English teacher who works with kids who were kicked out of regular public high schools, it is a constant struggle to get kids engaged. JKR has done that! Some of my students tell me that their younger siblings and cousins are reading these books - and my students are all minorities who live in the worst neighborhoods in NYC. How amazing it is that JKR has been able to reach even these children, especially when her stories do not take place in the inner city or even this country. I'm willing to bet that Ebony as a fellow teacher knows exactly what I'm talking about :-). I said this before, but if I want to use the "it's just fiction" argument, I can still say that because it's fiction, I can use my own imagination and question whether Snape is a vampire (never thought of that myself), or laugh at Dudley eating those Ton-Tongue Toffees (I hate bullies, having been bullied as a child), or even wish really, really hard as a 31 year old that the wizarding world really does exist (just like, when I was a kid, I hoped the front hall closet in my old house could take me to Narnia). Escapism is definitely a good thing. Yup, I'll keeping looking too closely into Harry Potter. --jenny from ravenclaw*************** From catlady at wicca.net Sat Jun 9 19:36:18 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 12:36:18 -0700 Subject: the Nature of Magic - Thin - Child Abuse - Multiculturalism - Message-ID: <3B227AB1.51DE2D3F@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20465 Amber wrote: > One instance that I can think of that deviates from this rule > is in Joel Rosenburg's Guardians of the Flame series. In it, > there are specific types of people: wizards, thieves, warriors, > elves, dwarves, and clerics. Within this world, if a cleric > becomes strong enough, they are able to bring the dead > back to life. Granted, it takes tons and tons of time and > energy and sacrifices, but it is possible. Sounds like the character classes in D&D (the original frpg -- sorry, that's *Fantasy* Role Playing Game). In D&D, a dead character can be brought back to life by an Unlimited Wish or the gamemaster's whim, because some people just get unbearably heartbroken if their long-time character is killed. Jami wrote: > Which makes me wonder if the younger Weasleys would > be much more powerful, had they not all had to use > hand-me-down wands. We don't actually know that anyone but Ron had to use a hand-me-down wand. It makes sense that the older kids would get newer stuff than the younger kids. First, fewer older sibling to get hand-me-downs from. Second, a family has more money when there are fewer kids needing to be equipped for school (because the ones still in the nursery don't need uniforms, textbooks, etc). For what it's worth, Fred and George had Comet 260s and Ron had only a Shooting Star. Ginny is even younger than Ron, but would have an advantage at getting clothes bought new for her: she's the only girl. As for wands, maybe the parents bought her a new wand when they bought Ron a replacement for the used wand he broke. Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > Well Ron does seem to do a lot better when he gets his > old wand replaced (PoA) so I would think you are right Ron's used wand wasn't really screwed up until he broke the tip off and tried to fix it with Spellotape. Not even Superglue. What is a wizarding pun on Superglue? Lindsay Stirton wrote: > Of course, Japanese wizards might invent a cheap black > plastic digital time-turner that runs off eclectricity! Part of the nature of Potterverse magic is that electric and electronic devices don't work around Hogwarts because the magic fields are too intense and screw up the devices (Hermione said so in GoF). Therefore, I doubt a device that works by magic can use electricity, even as pronounced by Mr Weasley. FB mentions a Beast that IIRC eats magic, and says that when there is no magic around, it infiltrates Muggle electric devices, thus explaining why brand new purchases already don't work. Looks to me like two clues that magic and electricity are somehow related forces/particles. A list member said something that understanding electricity makes it even MORE magical: WHY do the positive and negative charges attract each other? I didn't answer then, but now: electromagnetism and gravity are two manifestations of Eros (primordial force of love / attraction), which Hesiod said was the first-born son of Night: Night, Nyx, having hatched spontaneously from Chaos, parthenogenically born Eros, which organized the Chaos into Matter. I mention it now because, if magic and electricity are related, magic must also be a form of Eros. Rebekah catz109 wrote: > which makes me wonder- when you lot first read the > books, did you just read it, and think "Oh no, that isn't right, > JKR called Dudley fat" or "How come the nerdy ones all wear glasses" When I first read the books, I noticed that she made the loathsome Dursleys fat (the words saying the Petunia was thin came in through the eyes but didn't stick in the brain), and soon thereafter there were some loathsome fat people among the Slytherins, and I was annoyed at the fat-is-evil symbolism. Also at the looksism of making all the Slytherins ugly. Of course, I am as fat as Dudley and as ugly as a hag, so I am particularly sensitive on that subject. I also wear glasses whenever I'm awake and out of the shower ( I've worn them since I was 10 years old and needed them long before that) and all I've noticed about glasses-wearers in HP is that there seem to be a lot of them: why can't these magic folks fix their eyesight by spells? I don't recall having noticed even that on first reading -- and I just now this minute had a THOUGHT: MAYBE the way that Dumbledore can see Harry through the Invisibility Cloak is because those spectacles he wears way down on his nose are magic spectacles? On first reading, I noticed on page 52 that Harry talks back to Dudley -- he has some spirit left, that wasn't beaten out of him, he isn't a boring little plaster saint -- which was the first thing I loved about the first book. I noticed girls on the Quidditch team with happy feminist delight. I noticed with pleasure that the girl co-protagonist didn't have model-type looks (and was annoyed by apparent Mary-Sue-ism when she turned into a beauty for the Yule Ball in GoF). Robert wrote: > Mrs Dursley's described as thin at the start of PS, > and by POA she's "bony". If she's achieved this > without a diet, I hate her - Maybe she has a wasting disease. (I share your feelings about her.) Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: > (a lovely man was arrested here in NYC for sodomizing his > fifth grade male students just a few weeks ago) If he used a toilet plunger, then his MOTIVE was to hurt them, which seems somewhat analogous to Snape, but if he used his penis, then probably his motive was his own sexual gratification, and the hurt and harm that he didn't mind doing to the kids was just incidental. I am not saying that being callous about hurting and harming victims as a side-effect is less evil than being eager to hurt and harm victims, just that it seems less analogous to Snape's vicious treatment of students. Ebony wrote: > Forced multiculturalism is not authentic IMO and useless > in teaching children how to live. (snip) I really like the way > Rowling handles ethnicity--she mentions it, then lets the > kids act like all the other kids instead of venturing into > dangerous ethnic stereotypes like too many writers do. IMHO race is a matter of physical appearance and pedigree, while culture is a learned system of thought and behavior. I therefore am disturbed by the modern use of 'multicultural' to mean 'multiracial', as in Crayola coming up with a set of crayons in human skin, hair, and eye colors and naming it the Multicultural pack I imagine that British wizard-born students are all from the same culture, British wizarding culture, regardless of their race, but the Muggle-born students might come from different cultures, 'mainstream' cultures of region and social class, immigrant and 'minority' cultures. I don't know about UK, but in US, a writer is in a double-bind: if she portrays the black or Asian characters as just the same as the white characters except for their appearance and names, she is condemned for ignoring their unique African-American or Asian-American culture and turning them into Oreos/bananas. But if she tries to show the white, black, and Asian characters acting according to their different cultures (e.g. the white guests arrive too early for a multi-racial party thrown by a black hostess), then she is condemned for stereotyping. -- /\ /\ + + Mews and views >> = << from Rita Prince Winston ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 9 20:37:23 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 20:37:23 -0000 Subject: Ugly Slytherins? In-Reply-To: <3B227AB1.51DE2D3F@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9fu1e3+g82p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20466 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady wrote: and soon thereafter there were some > loathsome fat people among the Slytherins, and I was annoyed at the > fat-is-evil symbolism. Also at the looksism of making all the Slytherins > ugly. Draco's never described as ugly. I'm sure if he had any unattractive features Harry would notice, so probably the fan fic authors (including you, Rita) are right and he's drop dead gorgeous. It just shows, IMO, that Godric, Helga and Rowena were lookist, but Salazar was not. Another reason to hope Slyths aren't all bad. Pippin From viola_1895 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 20:41:29 2001 From: viola_1895 at yahoo.com (Julie (a.k.a. Viola)) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 20:41:29 -0000 Subject: the Nature of Magic - Thin - Child Abuse - Multiculturalism - In-Reply-To: <3B227AB1.51DE2D3F@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9fu1lq+qt46@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20467 I've been lurking here for ages but never posted anything. ^_^ This is one of those discussions, though, that I just can't seem to stop thinking about, so here goes... --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady wrote: > When I first read the books, I noticed that she made the loathsome > Dursleys fat (the words saying the Petunia was thin came in through the > eyes but didn't stick in the brain), and soon thereafter there were some > loathsome fat people among the Slytherins, and I was annoyed at the > fat-is-evil symbolism. We all bring our own lives to the table with this stuff. And even though I've had my own issues with weight (I defy you to find a woman in modern American society who _hasn't_), this didn't stick out to me as an issue. However, that being said, there were other issues about appearance and gender that bugged me from the get-go. > Also at the looksism of making all the Slytherins > ugly. I'm not convinced all the Slytherins are ugly. Certainly we see them through Harry's eyes, which is going to color our impressions of them, but I hardly think Pansy's pug nose qualifies her as ugly. ^_^ In fact, I always pictured Pansy and Draco at least as being pretty attractive - sort of a mini-Lucius and Narcissa. Nasty personalities, though, can affect how those appearances are viewed. I've known people who (before having a conversation with them) I would have described as very attractive, but afterwards described as "pinched" or "fake" in much the same way Harry does. > I've noticed about glasses-wearers in HP is that there seem to be a lot > of them: why can't these magic folks fix their eyesight by spells? Maybe its a rare case of Muggle technology outpacing magic and soon all the wizards will be lining up for laser eye surgery. ^_^ > the first book. I noticed girls on the Quidditch team with happy > feminist delight. The "Gryffindor Girls" were one of my favorite things about the books. I wish we got to see more of them - they're smart, witty and hold their own with the boys. > I noticed with pleasure that the girl co-protagonist > didn't have model-type looks (and was annoyed by apparent Mary-Sue- ism > when she turned into a beauty for the Yule Ball in GoF). And I actually thought this was extremely well-done on Rowling's part. Hermione is allowed to grow a little, learn that she can be attractive if she so chooses and then the next day is back to her usual self. I think it's one of the healthier protrayals we've seen - she does it for herself not for anyone else, and refuses to allow her appearance to define her. As evidenced by the fact that she'd never go to all that trouble every day. Her priorities are, to my mind, in the right order. > > Robert wrote: > > > Mrs Dursley's described as thin at the start of PS, > > and by POA she's "bony". If she's achieved this > > without a diet, I hate her - > > Maybe she has a wasting disease. (I share your feelings about her.) > "Bony" doesn't say attractive to me. ^_^ The Dursley's are such cartoonish extremes that I worry a whole lot less about people taking attitudes about them seriously than I am about characters whose messages are subtler. The appearance issues definitely cut both ways. When in the books have we met a very attractive person who was worthwhile? Lockheart is rubbish, Narcissa Malfoy is (we assume) snotty and horrible and Cho Chang is little more than a plot device, to name a few. The one that bothered me the most, in canon, was Fleur. We see through her that she's pretty and _female_, and therefore good for nothing else - she comes in dead last in the Tournament. And, more than that, is portrayed as haughty and manipulative. At least Cedric - while called a "pretty boy" - gets to be honorable and efficient. What I find even more disturbing than that, though, is the fan reaction to a character like Cho. Is the message we're sending to young women one that says you can't be attractive, smart and athletic? Or that girls who are "like that" are all mean, self- centered flirts? I can't count the number of fanfics I've read where Cho is evil, vapid, snobby, capricious or all of the above. The Weasley twins, on the other hand, are portrayed in the books as popular, handsome, athletic and outgoing and are practically worshipped by legions of fans. Where is the double standard coming from? Not saying that one intrepretation or the other is correct, just that we all bring our real life concerns into the experience with us. ^_^ From Lindsay at stirton.net Sat Jun 9 21:27:00 2001 From: Lindsay at stirton.net (Lindsay Stirton) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 16:27:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: British constitution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20468 Robert Carnegie wrote: As pointed out, the Muggle prime > minister knows that there's a Ministry of Magic, but he may > not be sure just where it is. I presume that Cornelius Fudge > doesn't attend the government's regular meetings with the > prime minister and with the queen using an Invisibility Cloak, > but who knows? In terms of the British Constitution, there are (by constitutional convention) up to 70 Ministers, all of whom may never in practice meet together collectively. It is the Cabinet, the group of (by constitutional convention limited to 22) most senior Ministers and Secretaries of State, collectively known as Cabinet Ministers, that meet regularly, weekly in fact. I suspect that the Minister of Magic falls in the former category, i.e. he is one of up to 70 Ministers of the Crown, but not a member of the Cabinet, and so would not have to attend regular meetings under an invisibility cloak. As implied by Carnegie, the famously "unwritten" British constitution--not quite true, the Treaty of Union 1707, as well as the European Communities Act 1972 and the Treaty of Rome are all written documents inter alia comprising the British Constitution--is fairly malleable and the structure of government is under constant change. One recent change involves the creation of stand-alone regulatory agencies, which are non-ministerial government departments headed by a Director-General, and as such are quasi-independent of Ministries. Another change involves the creation of Next Steps agencies, through which core civil service functions, primarily involving service delivery rather than policy functions, are being hived off into semi-autonomous Executive Agencies, headed by an Agency Chief Executive. If similar reforms are extended to the Ministry of Magic, we should expect bureaucracies in these kind of areas to be subject to agencification in the coming books: the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures will become OFMAC,(a contraction of Office of Magical Creatures); the Department for the Misuse of Muggle Artefacts will similarly be transformed into OFMMART. The Department of Magical Games and Sports to become the Magical Games and Sports Agency. All these agencies would then be responsible for the fulfilment of policies set at the level of the Ministry of Magic. The Department of International Magical Co-operation, which serves a policy-making rather than a service-delivery or regulatory function will presumably retain its present form. All this should please poor Arthur Weasley: as Director General of OFMAC, his position would fall outside the strict rules concerning the terms and conditions for the employment of civil servants. Perhaps Ron won't have to wear hand-me-downs much longer. Lindsay Stirton - a jurist and political scientist who would like to teach a much-needed course called Regulation of Magic at Hogwarts. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 21:48:24 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 21:48:24 -0000 Subject: Fat Slytherins? - Ugly Slytherins? - glasses - Pretty stereotypes In-Reply-To: <9fu1lq+qt46@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fu5j8+95h2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20469 Catlady wrote: soon thereafter there were > some > > loathsome fat people among the Slytherins, and I was annoyed at the > > fat-is-evil symbolism. Who are the fat Slytherins? Pippin's point about Draco is interesting. I use a similar logic to conclude that he's neither drop-dead gorgeous nor hideous, because I think the narration would comment on either one. JKR clearly doesn't fall into the beautiful face=beautiful self trap (Lockhart, e.g.) so I don't think she would hesitate to describe Draco as good-looking if he were strikingly so. After all, Harry doesn't dislike him from the very first moment he sees him; he could observe that he's "remarkably good looking" a la Cedric, rather than simply "pale with a pointed face" (paraphrase), as he does. Also, when one does despise someone who's undeniably handsome, it's as easy to disparage them for their looks as if they were homely--the old "brains vs. beauty" lie, which causes some characters to think badly of Cedric (but see below). Catlady also wrote: > > I've noticed about glasses-wearers in HP is that there seem to be a > lot > > of them: why can't these magic folks fix their eyesight by spells? I also noticed during an earlier thread on this question that they are all Gryffindors: Percy, Mr. Weasley, James, Harry, Dumbledore, McGonagall (possible/quasi-Gryffindor). Julie leapt out of lurkdom to write: > What I find even more disturbing than that, though, is the fan > reaction to a character like Cho. Is the message we're sending to > young women one that says you can't be attractive, smart and > athletic? Or that girls who are "like that" are all mean, self- > centered flirts? I can't count the number of fanfics I've read where > Cho is evil, vapid, snobby, capricious or all of the above. Really good point. JKR's portrayal of Cho is very positive; whatever stereotypes fanfic authors may harbor about pretty girls, JKR is skewering them, not supporting them. Ditto Cedric--I don't for a moment think that =she= sees him as a dumb "pretty boy." He is unfailingly nice and intelligent as well as handsome. The only ones who refer to him as a "pretty boy" or anything along those lines are irked Gryffindors at particularly competitive moments--the twins (maybe it's only one of them) before the Hufflepuff match in PA (feeling competitive about the game =and= the girls), Ron and Seamus in regard to the Triwizard Tournament, Harry when he's just been turned down by Cho. Amy Z From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Jun 9 22:50:57 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 22:50:57 -0000 Subject: the Nature of Magic - Thin - Child Abuse - Multiculturalism - In-Reply-To: <9fu1lq+qt46@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fu98h+ahjd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20470 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Julie (a.k.a. Viola)" wrote: > > The one that bothered me the most, in canon, was Fleur. We see > through her that she's pretty and _female_, and therefore good for > nothing else - she comes in dead last in the Tournament. And, more > than that, is portrayed as haughty and manipulative. Yes, that is true, but I just had another thought about Fleur. Perhaps she has the attitude that she does because she doesn't trust anyone - especially boys. She only warmed up to Harry after he saved her sister. I know, I know - if she wasn't nice to Harry after that, I can only imagine the names she'd be called, but he proved to her that he is a trustworthy person. She is obviously close with her family, as her sister was the one chosen to be taken for the 2nd task, and her coldness towards others could be related to the fact that many people only approach her because of how she looks. Fleur was chosen as a champion, after all, which means that she is more than her just her looks. It must not be fun to always question why people are interested in you. Fleur has developed a thick skin out of necessity. She doesn't always get what she wants either - Cedric didn't want to go to the Ball with her and she did come in last in the tournament. Maybe we could say that JKR is portraying beautiful people as only human. Fleur may be a lot of things, but, IMO, she's no Barbie doll. --jenny from ravenclaw***************************** From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 10 01:20:57 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 01:20:57 -0000 Subject: Under the Lake (filk) Message-ID: <9fui1p+dfjl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20471 Under the Lake A filk by Pippin to the tune of Under the Sea Scene: the Prefect's bathroom Enter HARRY with the egg clue. He runs a bath, takes off his clothes and gets in the water HARRY I shoulda been a whole lot keener Why did I procrastinate? Was I dreaming about going up here What for did I have to wait? Just look at the mess I'm in now Right here in the Prefect's bath Then Myrtle comes out of hiding Just what is she lookin' at? Under the foam, under the foam There'll be no gawking Don't you be stalking Leave me alone! I'll hit the books I'll read all day Where there's a wand there'll be a way Some spell bequeathing How to be breathing Under the foam [Some days later, Harry falls asleep in the library and is wakened by Dobby] HARRY Under the lake where the merfolk ramble They have taken what I'll sorely miss Past an hour it'll be a shamble Worse than being dementor kisssed But the hostages are lucky I'm in for a worser fate Everybody's gonna know I blew it I'm gonna be Draco bait DOBBY Under the lake, under the lake It will be breezy, You'll find your Weezy, Make no mistake Although you isn't find the book With gilly weed you's off the hook Having no troubles Under the bubbles Under the lake Under the lake, Under the lake No need to fake it You're going to make it Under the lake [cut to under water] MYRTLE Though Diggory and Viktor Krum and haughty Fleur away have swum You will surprise 'em, we'll Myrtle-ise 'em Under the lake HARRY When I feed on the weed I'm an ace in this race I'm all grins with my fins I've got gills on my face The bass I can pass The chub I won't flub It's no fluke I'm the duke of this pond V. Krum will look dumb No Ced up ahead I'm sure to pass Fleur The squid must have fled Like smelt and like sprat I'll leave them all flat And flow past that grindylow Under the lake (under the lake) Under the lake (under the lake) What the merpeople think they can keep will Soon make a break What do they got? A lotta sand I'll free each hostage from that band Fleur will be 'appy, I saved her Gabby Under the lake! [Harry frees Gabrielle and Ron and they swim ashore. Fleur ecstatically kisses Harry and Ron] HERMIONE Fleur was a drown out Harry got Ron out Under the lake! VIKTOR [aside to Hermione] Don't vant to share ya Come to Bulgaria Under the lake! CEDRIC [aside to Cho] Why don't we try it Before I buy it. Under the lake! JUDGES Top marks for Potter Under the water He did the task here More than we asked here He's a survivor With moral fiber Under the lake! From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Jun 10 03:07:47 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 03:07:47 -0000 Subject: Under the Lake (filk) In-Reply-To: <9fui1p+dfjl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fuoa3+8lg8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20472 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > Under the Lake A Great "Lake"! - CMC From reanna20 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 03:49:49 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 20:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pretty stereotypes In-Reply-To: <9fu5j8+95h2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010610034949.32415.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20473 --- Amy Z wrote: > Julie leapt out of lurkdom to write: > > > What I find even more disturbing than that, though, is the fan > > reaction to a character like Cho. Is the message we're sending to > > young women one that says you can't be attractive, smart and > > athletic? Or that girls who are "like that" are all mean, self- > > centered flirts? I can't count the number of fanfics I've read > > where Cho is evil, vapid, snobby, capricious or all of the above. > > Really good point. JKR's portrayal of Cho is very positive; whatever > stereotypes fanfic authors may harbor about pretty girls, JKR is > skewering them, not supporting them. Hrm, I thought the reason people usually bash Cho in fanfic is because they either want Harry to end up romantically with someone else in the canon or because they're *jealous* that Cho has captured Harry's attention. Has nothing to do with Cho personally, the authors just don't want Harry to end up with her. Makes sense, one normally wants the main hero to end up with a developed character and Cho hasn't exactly been developed yet. 'Course, what do I know. I've personally got nothing against Cho. ~Amber (Hey, that rhymed!) ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/2/2001 "It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people." - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 04:13:45 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 04:13:45 -0000 Subject: Pretty stereotypes In-Reply-To: <20010610034949.32415.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fus5p+ggo8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20474 Thanks for your analysis, Amber. It has made me think twice about Cho's place in the series. BTW, nice home page...I wanted to let you know that thanks to other SAIs, I'm the Harry Potter maniac I am today. ;) Write back if you want to know more. :) Natasha From viola_1895 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 05:53:44 2001 From: viola_1895 at yahoo.com (Julie aka Viola) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 22:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pretty Stereotypes, and some views on Fleur and Cho Message-ID: <20010610055344.43422.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20475 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > Perhaps she has the attitude that she does because she doesn't trust > anyone - especially boys. She only warmed up to Harry after he saved > her sister. I know, I know - if she wasn't nice to Harry after that, > I can only imagine the names she'd be called, but he proved to her > that he is a trustworthy person. She is obviously close with her > family, as her sister was the one chosen to be taken for the 2nd task, > and her coldness towards others could be related to the fact that many > people only approach her because of how she looks. *laughs* Don't get me wrong, I like Fleur. I empathize with her in a lot of ways and really hope we get to see more of her in the books. And I think you may have a point there - that she doesn't trust easily. Her relationship with her family hints at unexplored depth to her character, as well as reminding us that underneath that blonde, Veela shell she's just a seventeen year old girl. > Fleur was chosen > as a champion, after all, which means that she is more than her just > her looks. True, and yet she still didn't perform well - particularly not compared to the boys. I understand the plot reasons for Harry and Cedric being neck in neck in the competition... It just struck me as odd, Fleur being the only female - and a bit dangerous in a story so peopled with male characters already. > --- Amy Z wrote: > > Really good point. JKR's portrayal of Cho is very positive; whatever > > stereotypes fanfic authors may harbor about pretty girls, JKR is > > skewering them, not supporting them. And, Amber wrote: > Hrm, I thought the reason people usually bash Cho in fanfic is because > they either want Harry to end up romantically with someone else in the > canon or because they're *jealous* that Cho has captured Harry's > attention. Has nothing to do with Cho personally, the authors just > don't want Harry to end up with her. Makes sense, one normally wants > the main hero to end up with a developed character and Cho hasn't > exactly been developed yet. That is to some extent true, but I've been really disturbed by the number of comments I've heard (read?) that describe Cho as "a girl like that" or "one of those types." In my opinion, those are some of the most destructive labels women can put on one another. Not that I have any illusions that we're all (meaning women in general) going to join hands like one big, happy sisterhood, any more than any other group of individuals could. ^_- But before I start quoting Margaret Atwood at you I'll get back on track... I liked Cho immediately - admittedly I'm not a die-hard shipper of any sort so I didn't have any emotional investment there - and thought she'd be an interesting addition to the story, because she seems strong and smart and all the things we're supposed to want in a female character. But the kinds of motives I've seen ascribed to her really blow my mind - everything from being in league with Malfoy over the Dementor stunt in PoA to knowing about Harry's crush on her and enjoying turning him down in GoF to being a Death Eater. And the only real evidence I've seen given to support these theories is along the lines of "well, she's that type - the sort who like to use boys." So, in that sense, I think it is about Cho personally. Or, it may be a case of me seeing one of my pet issues everywhere. In college, when I wasn't poking holes in Walt Whitman's verse, I was writing essays on physical appearance and gender roles in literature. So it certainly affects the way I read things now. -Julie (who freely admits she may be overthinking this) ===== "Death and poverty like me so much... they brought friends!" - Vash the Stampede, Trigun, Ep. 8: And between the wasteland and the sky ~dreamwalk~ http://www.geocities.com/metis_dreamwalk home for the fanfiction series dreamwalk blue lo/rez skyline ~ cyberspace cowgirls http://www.lorezskyline.com HP_Paradise - Cast into Paradise http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sun Jun 10 08:08:37 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 09:08:37 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fat Slytherins? - Ugly Slytherins? - glasses - Pretty stereotypes References: <9fu5j8+95h2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <006401c0f184$8df51480$bf3570c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 20476 Amy Z said: <> There are some great threads going on here and we have some wonderful new members. I just wish I had time to to do more than just lurk, or loom in my hairnet. :-( *** Assuming Harry's POV, I'm fairly sure that a boy of 10 or 11 would not describe another boy as "remarkably good looking," even inside his own head, and is much more likely to make a cursory assessment of looks. At that age, children are inclined to pick out a notable characteristic - whether that be a pale face, a pug nose or a pair of glasses bound up with tape - and define their friends and enemies in that way. Hence, we get nicknames such as 'spotty', 'speccy' or 'pigface' that are insulting, and perhaps emotionally scarring to the recipients, but not always accurate. Once kids hit puberty, hormones rage and the people around start to look different and behave differently. For a start, puberty brings the joys of secondary sexual characteristics: acne, greasy hair (tufts of which sprouting up in uncharted territory) and other such alluring features. Girls start their periods and boys' voices begin to crack up amusingly. I doubt many of us would claim to have been at our most attractive at this age (indeed, I have photos of myself as a lanky, oily-faced geek with bad hair plastered to my scalp, sporting unfashionable glasses perched at an angle on my zitty face because a boy in my class trod on them for a laugh. [Sigh] ....those were the days). Adolescent blood, pus and grease aside (JKR hasn't really gone there, so why should we?), this is the time where we start to notice the attractive features of our peers. Perhaps, at age 14, Draco's pale, pointy face has started to morph into a handsome, fine-boned profile of alabaster complexion, and perhaps Pansy Parkinson's pug nose has realised its potential as a pretty, retrouss feature under eyes dancing with dappled light. No longer just "a Slytherin girl" and "a Slytherin boy," they are drawn to each other by forces beyond their control... etc, etc. Since our impressions of the other characters are, to a large extent, formed from the impressions made on Harry before he hit puberty, I think we hold to these stereotypes and caricatures until we are told something to alter that view. Personally, I doubt that the Slytherins as a group are any uglier than the Gryffindors; it's just that the Gryffindors are on Harry's side and the Slytherins are 'the enemy'. It's no surprise that he applies a different vocabulary to each. I think the same applies to the Dursleys and to the Hogwarts' staff. As a child, Harry notices singular things about the people around him, and it is only later, as a young teenager, that he starts to see them in a more realistic light. Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything to do with this club: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 09:44:30 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 09:44:30 -0000 Subject: FF: Pretty stereotypes In-Reply-To: <20010610034949.32415.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fvfhu+1tmj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20477 Amber wrote: > Hrm, I thought the reason people usually bash Cho in fanfic is because > they either want Harry to end up romantically with someone else in the > canon or because they're *jealous* that Cho has captured Harry's > attention. Has nothing to do with Cho personally, the authors just > don't want Harry to end up with her. No doubt. It's still not nice to deal in stereotypes, though. Those who don't want Fred to end up with Angelina can just give him another partner--they don't have to throw in racist slurs about Angelina. Now I might be slamming these authors unfairly, because I have read almost no fics with Cho in them at all and really can't judge what trends there might be in Cho-portrayal. Amy Z ------------------------------------------------ Ern jerked the wheel so hard that a whole farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban ------------------------------------------------ From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 10:04:09 2001 From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (Vicki Granger) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:04:09 -0000 Subject: Pretty stereotypes In-Reply-To: <20010610034949.32415.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fvgmp+74e6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20478 Amber wrote: Hrm, I thought the reason people usually bash Cho in fanfic is becausethey either want Harry to end up romantically with someone else in the canon or because they're *jealous* that Cho has captured Harry's attention. Has nothing to do with Cho personally, the authors just don't want Harry to end up with her. Makes sense, one normally wants the main hero to end up with a developed character and Cho hasn't exactly been developed yet. ~*~ That's what I'm like, I'm a H/H shipper because I feel that they go better together and because Harry seems to only have a crush on Cho for her looks and Quidditch abilities. She also always has friends around her (couldn't be bothered to find the quote) so that seems to make me think she's 'popular'. I hate the 'popular' group *lol* Ask my dad and he'll tell you it's because she's Asian. My dad doesn't think of Harry Potter as anymore than a fantasy book that's an OK read. I think the Asian thing is a reason Harry likes her, all the asians I've met (that's quite a few) all tend to hae an easier passage through the grease stage than the rest of us... *mutters* it's so unfair... I think this is getting dangerously close to a SHIP post... oh dear... ~*Vicki*~ From litalex at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 10:28:34 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 03:28:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pretty stereotypes References: <9fvgmp+74e6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00d001c0f198$1b3735e0$810ceda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20479 Hello, > I think the Asian thing is a reason Harry likes her, all the asians > I've met (that's quite a few) all tend to hae an easier passage > through the grease stage than the rest of us... *mutters* it's so > unfair... Ahem, the Asian thing? I'd thank you to remember than Harry doesn't seem to care about other people's races and other such qualities. And we Asians do *not* have an easier time through high school, especially if one's from the traditional East Asian family. It's ridiculously difficult, in fact. little Alex From aaronnicky95 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 12:40:38 2001 From: aaronnicky95 at yahoo.com (aaronnicky95 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:40:38 -0000 Subject: Was Hagrid a Hufflepuff Message-ID: <9fvps6+1s8p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20480 I'm new here and I searched and searched to see if this question had been definitively answered, but I couldn't find anything. I read in the messages that JKR said he was in Gryffindor, but that didn't seem certain. I was sure when Hagrid said, "People say Hufflepuffs are a lot of duffers, but..." he was going to say, "but I was in Hufflepuff." That makes the most sense to me, yes he is brave like a Gryffindor, but his qualities as a friend are what make him unique and interesting. There doesn't seem to be any support for this theory, but I can't shake it. I apologize if this ground has already been covered. From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Jun 10 13:08:14 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:08:14 -0000 Subject: Pretty Stereotypes, and some views on Fleur and Cho In-Reply-To: <20010610055344.43422.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9fvrfu+bivm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20481 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Julie aka Viola wrote: > > I liked Cho immediately - admittedly I'm not a > die-hard shipper of any sort so I didn't have any > emotional investment there - and thought she'd be an > interesting addition to the story, because she seems > strong and smart and all the things we're supposed to > want in a female character. > > But the kinds of motives I've seen ascribed to her > really blow my mind - everything from being in league > with Malfoy over the Dementor stunt in PoA to knowing > about Harry's crush on her and enjoying turning him > down in GoF to being a Death Eater. And the only real > evidence I've seen given to support these theories is > along the lines of "well, she's that type - the sort > who like to use boys." So, in that sense, I think it > is about Cho personally. I like Cho very much, and cannot understand why poeple bash her at all. I have seen no evidence that she is one of *those* pretty, vacuous popular girls. In fact, she is quite nice to Harry - she doesn't giggle like her friends when he approaches her, she doesn't wear a Cedric Diggory pin, and in PoA, after Ravenclaw lost to Gryffindor, she still tells Harry good luck. The Weasley twins are not nearly as nice to Cedric. I also did not think Harry had any idea that Cho was popular when he first saw her; he realized that later. I also don't think he cared. So what, BTW, if Harry is first attracted to Cho because of her looks? We all have to start somewhere. Remember, he is not interested in Fleur at all, part veela and all. Maybe he'll get to know Cho and find out that she's great. Or maybe he'll see Ginny differently in OoP *crosses fingers*, and Ginny will look beautiful to Harry. No matter how good looking someone is, once you get to know that person, it's hard to only see their looks. I can't imagine that I'd find Lockhart handsome because I dislike him so much, and Sirius is running around with matted hair eating rats, yet many people here think he's as "dead sexy" as JKR wants us to! --jenny from ravenclaw*********************** From indigo at indigosky.net Sun Jun 10 13:25:08 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:25:08 -0000 Subject: Quidditch and Social Structure thoughts Message-ID: <9fvsfk+b6ve@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20482 I was catching up with the messages I have missed being sick for the apst few days, and this caught my eye: >I noticed this too. And at the Yule Ball, of the eight people who >are champions or dates thereof, six are Quidditch players. Cedric knows Cho from playing Quidditch against her, same as Harry does. Far as I know, most teenage kids will gravitate toward someone of the opposite sex who has something in common with them. Krum didn't know anyone in Hogwarts. Fleur, if indeed he was interested in her, had apparently set her sights on Cedric then chosen someone else when Cedric chose Cho. They don't say much about the other Durmstrang students, though we hear quite a bit about Parvati's "boy from Beauxbatons" [or was it Padma's?] Harry waited until the last minute, or would've asked Cho. See above re: Cedric. Angelina was already going with one of the twins and was a good bit older than Harry atop that. Is there anyone in Beauxbatons that does play Quidditch? I can't quite wrap my mind around the idea that they actually have a Quidditch following there. Thoughts, anyone? Indigo From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Sun Jun 10 13:49:21 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:49:21 -0000 Subject: the Nature of Magic - Thin - Child Abuse - Multiculturalism - In-Reply-To: <3B227AB1.51DE2D3F@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9fvtt1+f8ru@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20483 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady wrote: > Jami wrote: > > > Which makes me wonder if the younger Weasleys would > > be much more powerful, had they not all had to use > > hand-me-down wands. > > We don't actually know that anyone but Ron had to use a hand-me-down > wand. It makes sense that the older kids would get newer stuff than the > younger kids. First, fewer older sibling to get hand-me-downs from. > Second, a family has more money when there are fewer kids needing to be > equipped for school (because the ones still in the nursery don't need > uniforms, textbooks, etc). I suspect Charlie did have a hand-me-down wand at first (perhaps it belonged to a desceased great uncle or something). Why else would he have replaced it other than to get one that was a better match for him? OK, so it was looking a bit worn (unicorn tail poking out), but to my mind that also suggests that it probably wasn't new to him. Also, Charlie (by my reckoning) would have been starting school around the same year the twins were born, which would have meant plenty of extra expenses. Florence From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sun Jun 10 14:12:46 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:12:46 -0000 Subject: Snape the Vampire, Crabbe and Goyle Trolls? In-Reply-To: <9ftp9d+30mt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9fvv8u+m92v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20484 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" wrote: > This Vampire theory has been fascinating, although like others I find > myself somewhat sceptical. However it occured to me that Crabbe and > Goyle have been likened to Trolls, probably just as much as Snape has > to a Bat. They look like trolls, talk like trolls (point and grunt) > and they're certainly not too bright. How many times do we hear them > "chuckle trollishly" or somesuch through the books? Is it just that > JKR likes to liken her characters to animals/beasts, or do people > think we've got a pair of part-trolls on our hands too? > When I read that Goyle's first name was "Gregory", I began [laying with the name. "Greg Goyle" is similar to "gargoyle". The drawing of Goyle in FB is an exaggeration with the large ears, the square-ish head and the puggish nose. But it kind of looks like that little Gargoyle in Notre Dame, Dedo(though not as cute) http://www.gargoylestore.com/cat3.html. Milz From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 10 15:03:52 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 10 Jun 2001 15:03:52 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups Message-ID: <992185432.71472.2637.c7@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20485 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups group. File : /Group Members/Miller_Time.jpg Uploaded by : corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com Description : This is me, doing what I do best at work! You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Group%20Members/Miller_Time.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 16:06:58 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:06:58 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FF: Pretty stereotypes (some SHIP too) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20486 Amber wrote: > > > Hrm, I thought the reason people usually bash Cho in fanfic is because they either want Harry to end up romantically with someone else in the canon or because they're *jealous* that Cho has captured Harry's attention. Has nothing to do with Cho personally, the authors just don't want Harry to end up with her. Amy Z wrote: >No doubt. It's still not nice to deal in stereotypes, though. Those >who don't want Fred to end up with Angelina can just give him another >partner--they don't have to throw in racist slurs about Angelina. > >Now I might be slamming these authors unfairly, because I have read >almost no fics with Cho in them at all and really can't judge what >trends there might be in Cho-portrayal. You know, I think I may one of the only people who likes the idea of Harry/Cho much more than Harry/Ginny. At this point in canon, I think Cho would be a much better match all things considered (I'm in the middle of re-reading CoS today). And I think there's stronger canon evidence for Harry/Cho than there is for Harry/Ginny. (I have an idea that the Harry/Ginny ship's biggest supporters come from Ron/Hermione shippers that... never mind. ) I don't have a problem with Cho at all, and while it was funny reading about her playing the you-know-what in fanfic at first, after a while it gets old fast. Cho is not one of my favorite characters, but she seems like a nice enough girl. The way she deals with Harry in GoF showed that. She doesn't get on my nerves nearly as much as Fleur does. She's an excellent Quidditch player. She blushes when Harry asks her to the Yule Ball, and grieves over Cedric... so she's capable of showing emotion. I think that Harry could be very happy with a Cho-type who he meets later in life in the long run. They have common interests, and since she is in Ravenclaw, she does have at least *some* brains. (DISCLAIMER FOR PENNY'S SAKE: Though of course he would not be as happy with Cho as he'd be with Hermione. (The previous statement was included so I don't get cast overboard without an inner tube.)) To tell you the truth, I don't care all that much about the future outlook for Fred and Angelina. (See? I can easily separate fanfic reading/writing from canon!) Chances are they're just friends, and let's just leave it at that. What annoys me are several fanfics that I have read in which the author has decided to make Angelina white on purpose, saying, "I always saw her as being white in my head... I identify with Angelina a lot, so I'm making her white." (I am not making this up--this was found in an actual author's note on ff.net.) I've also seen Parvati, Dean, and others similarily whitewashed. When I first started writing a fic from Angelina's PoV last Christmas, there was a thread over at HP_FanFiction that was started when a certain writer admitted that they'd never pictured her as being "really black". Which brings to mind my post from yesterday--what is it about characters of color that makes certain readers and fan writers so darn uncomfortable? Imagine the cries of "sacrilege!" there would be if one made Hermione out to be biracial, the Weasleys Hispanic, or the Malfoys Asian with bleached-platinum hair. I do understand that fanfic writers take creative license, but there *are* limits. Maybe I'm weird, but I don't have to *look* like a character in order to identify with them. --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 10 16:10:47 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:10:47 -0000 Subject: FF: Pretty stereotypes In-Reply-To: <9fvfhu+1tmj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g0667+aveu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20487 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Amber wrote: > > > Hrm, I thought the reason people usually bash Cho in fanfic is > because > > they either want Harry to end up romantically with someone else in > the > > canon or because they're *jealous* that Cho has captured Harry's > > attention. Has nothing to do with Cho personally, the authors just > > don't want Harry to end up with her. > > No doubt. It's still not nice to deal in stereotypes, though. Most of the FF authors are writing romances, as strictly formal as haiku. JKR has already given us the Ms. Right and Ms. Almost Right characters (Ginny and Hermione respectively or counter-respectively ) which leaves Ms. Scheming and Ms. Airhead to be filled. So poor Cho ends up with one of those parts. It doesn't neccessarily have to do with how the author feels about Asians, or prettiness or popularity in general. I'm sure, though, that there is some Revenge of the Nerds feeling involved in the Cho bashing. Who hasn't had the experience of being shunned by someone popular? Pippin From john at walton.to Sun Jun 10 16:31:03 2001 From: john at walton.to (John Walton) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:31:03 -0400 Subject: FF: Race (was: Pretty stereotypes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20488 Ebony Elizabeth Thomas said: > Which brings to mind my post from yesterday--what is it about > characters of color that makes certain readers and fan writers so darn > uncomfortable? I think it's society. People (especially people who would never be classed as racist) are very conscious of how they act and react to people of color. My Sociolinguistics class was having a discussion about the link between ethnicity and language as an identity symbol, and people *really* started to tiptoe. We actually had to stop the discussion and decide what we were going to use as a term for non-white people. Eventually we came up with "persons of color", but the very fact that we (as a fairly liberal, accepting bunch of students) had to stop our discussion and ask the two people of color what their preferred appelation was. Perhaps it's because there have been so many different terms (even in my nigh-on-20 years) -- "black", "African-American", "colored", "persons of color", "non-white"...I can see where some people might have trouble in distinguishing which is appropriate to be used. --John ________________________________ John Walton -- john at walton.to Current... Movie: Shrek. 11/10! CD: Shrek Soundtrack ::grin:: Song: "Hallelujah": Rufus Wainwright (from Shrek soundtrack) ________________________________ From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com Sun Jun 10 16:54:50 2001 From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:54:50 -0000 Subject: PoA Chapter 14 Summary Message-ID: <9g08oq+nli8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20489 Well, I know that I'm posting this a day early, but I'm going out of town this week, and I wanted to make sure I was able to read and respond to some of the replies before I leave. :) So, here you go. CHAPTER FOURTEEN: SNAPE'S GRUDGE Chapter Summary: After Black's appearance, the whole castle is again searched, but to no avail. However, the security becomes tighter around the castle; the Fat Lady is reinstated at the entrance to Gryffindor Tower, though only on the condition that she have the protection of security trolls, but the statue of the hump-backed witch, as Harry notices, remains unguarded. Ron is quite thrilled at the attention that everyone gives him after his Sirius Black encounter, and he gladly tells his story to anyone who will listen. Neville, on the other hand, is given detention, banned from Hogsmeade, and forbidden from receiving the passwords to the Tower. On top of that, he is also sent a Howler from his grandmother. Harry and Ron are invited to have tea with Hagrid, who picks them up at the entrance hall. He tells them about the case against Buckbeak, and how Hermione had been helping him with the hippogriff information. He also gives them a friendly lecture on Hermione's "righ' state", saying that he would have thought that Harry and Ron would care about their friend more than broomsticks and rats. Upon their return to the castle, Harry and Ron find that a Hogsmeade trip is scheduled for the next weekend. Ron makes the suggestion that Harry should sneak in again; Hermione overhears him and threatens to tell McGonagall about the map. Obviously, Hagrid's talk has had little effect on Ron, who still acts furious toward her, until she hurries off to the girl's dorms with Crookshanks. Harry concedes to join Ron in Hogsmeade, but only with the Invisibility Cloak. On Saturday, Ron leaves with the rest of the students, and Harry makes his way to the one-eyed witch, where he unfortunately meets up with Neville. To make matters worse, Snape shows up, and sends them both back to Gryffindor Tower while looking suspiciously at the statue. Harry manages to get rid of Neville by giving him the password, and steals his way back to the statue and into Hogsmeade. In Hogsmeade, Harry and Ron visit the post office and spend money on Zonko's jokes before heading up to the Shrieking Shack, the most haunted dwelling in Britain, where they encounter Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle. Malfoy, as usual, tries to get a good laugh by insulting Ron's family and Hagrid, but Harry, who is in his Invisibility Cloak, takes the opportunity to lob mud and sticks at the three Slytherins. However, in a bungled attempt to trip Crabbe, the cloak falls from Harry's face, allowing Malfoy to see him and break off at a run back to the school. Harry, too, runs off to Hogwarts, hoping he can get back before Malfoy finds a teacher. Of course, as soon as he emerges from the witch's hump, Snape comes down the corridor and instructs Harry to follow him to his office, which Harry does, seeing as how he has no other option. Snape tells him Malfoy's story, and charges him of being illegally in Hogsmeade. Harry protests, but he has no one to back his claim. Snape continues to provoke him, accusing him of being a "law unto himself... with no thought to the consequences." Snape then tells Harry how "extraordinarily like [his] father" he is, drawing the similarities in how both Harry and James shared a talent for Quidditch and thus, arrogance, inflated egos and a disregard for the rules. Harry snaps, tells Snape to shut up, and explains that Dumbledore told him how James once saved Snape's life. Snape, however, realizes that Harry is not aware of the entire situation, and reveals that the "saintly father and his friends" had played a deadly trick on him, and James actually "saved" his life by getting "cold feet at the last moment". Snape orders Harry to then turn out his pockets. He sees the Zonko's jokes, and the Marauder's Map. He suspects what the Map is, and attempts to reveal what the empty parchment conceals; however, the Map only responds with a number of insults. Snape suspects something else about it, though, and calls Lupin into his office, asking him what he knows about the Map, whether it might be some Dark object, and if Harry might have gotten it directly from the makers. Lupin counters that it "looks like a Zonko product", and Ron bursts in, clarifying that he gave all the jokes to Harry "ages ago". Lupin takes the opportunity to sweep Harry and Ron out of the room, testifying that the matter is cleared up. However, once outside Snape's office, Lupin reveals that he knows what the Map is and confiscates it, saying that the manufacturers would have found it "entertaining" to lure Harry out of the castle. Lupin warns Harry that he won't cover up for him again, and tells him that he is poorly repaying Lily and James' sacrifice, a statement that makes Harry feel far worse than anything Snape had said. On their way back to Gryffindor Tower, Harry and Ron meet up with Hermione. Ron accuses her of coming to gloat about them being in trouble, but she looks close to tears and informs them that Hagrid lost the case, and Buckbeak will be executed. Questions and Ruminations: 1) Snape's Grudge: Is it simply a long-standing hatred for James' arrogance and a powerful jealousy about Quidditch? Is it really all about the prank that MWPP pulled during their years at Hogwarts? Or, as most of us suspect, is there something more? (Open Season on Snape/Lily. Have at it.) 2) It's insinuated that Snape knows perfectly well who Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs are. So, why doesn't he question Lupin straight out, rather than being so indirect? 3) Why is it that Hagrid's great guilt trip makes Ron incredibly uncomfortable, but yet he still treats Hermione like dirt? Don't Hagrid's words mean *anything* to him? 4) How on earth did Hermione find that time to help Hagrid, when it's quite obvious that she has barely enough time for all of her homework and classes? Would she use the Timeturner to help her look up stuff for Buckbeak's case? 5) After the Hogsmeade incident, has Malfoy now figured out that Harry owns an Invisibility Cloak? 6) Aside from The Three Broomsticks, Honeydukes, the post office, Zonko's, Gladrags, and the Shrieking Shack, what other places are there in Hogsmeade? 7) Who lives in Hogsmeade, aside from the shop owners, and what do they do? From indigo at indigosky.net Sun Jun 10 17:16:56 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:16:56 -0000 Subject: PoA Chapter 14 Summary In-Reply-To: <9g08oq+nli8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g0a28+omt8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20490 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" wrote: > Well, I know that I'm posting this a day early, but I'm going > out of town this week, and I wanted to make sure I was able to read > and respond to some of the replies before I leave. :) So, here you >go. Have a good time! We'll miss you! See you when you get back! Thanks for getting the ball rolling! > > 1) Snape's Grudge: Is it simply a long-standing hatred for James' arrogance and a powerful jealousy about Quidditch? Is it really all about the prank that MWPP pulled during their years at Hogwarts? Or, as most of us suspect, is there something more? (Open Season on Snape/Lily. Have at it.) I think it's a combination of the first two, plus a bunch of stuff we don't know yet. It's possible the Snape/Lily connection, even though I'm admittedly not much of a shipper. But I seem to recall Harry's striking resemblance to his father visibly being something Snape snarked at Harry for too. 2) It's insinuated that Snape knows perfectly well who Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs are. So, why doesn't he question Lupin straight out, rather than being so indirect? Knowing it and being able to prove it are two different things. He also knows that Lupin's a werewolf, disapproves of it, but can't do anything even with that knowledge because Dumbledore's okay with Lupin on staff, even as a werewolf. 3) Why is it that Hagrid's great guilt trip makes Ron incredibly uncomfortable, but yet he still treats Hermione like dirt? Don't Hagrid's words mean *anything* to him? Because Ron knows that Hermione feels bad, but he holds a grudge. And Hermione tends to inspire him to hold the grudge. Hagrid saw her in a "righ' state" but she never shows anything to Ron but her snappy side, and her smug know-it-all attitude. If she'd cried in front of Ron and said she was sorry or anything like that, Ron would've backed off in a minute [more or less by his own admission!] because all he wanted was to hear her say she was sorry and admit she was wrong. Okay, yes, Ron was wrong, technically, that Crookshanks killed Scabbers, but Hermione was overlooking Crookshanks' kneazle-type attentions toward Scabbers while ignoring all the other rodents in the castle [which Harry pointed out to Crookshanks at least once in my recollection]. Hermione refusing to budge on this is why it went on as long as it did. Scabbers did have 'seniority' as pets go, and IMHO, at least, it is kind of silly to buy a pet that's the natural enemy of one of your best friends' pets, and then get all indignant that the the predator goes after the prey from instinct. If the friendship is that important, Hermione could've trained Crookshanks not to go after Scabbers or at least made an attempt of doing so. All Ron wanted was an indication she cared that his poor sick rat was being harried [no pun intended] by her cat. She refused to give even an inch on that. 4) How on earth did Hermione find that time to help Hagrid, when it's quite obvious that she has barely enough time for all of her homework and classes? Would she use the Timeturner to help her look up stuff for Buckbeak's case? She would have to use it to study anyway. What's one more book since she's living the hours again anyway? 5) After the Hogsmeade incident, has Malfoy now figured out that Harry owns an Invisibility Cloak? Possibly. It's not like the Malfoys don't have their own share of weird goods, given what Lucius brought to Knockturn Alley. If he doesn't know for sure, he suspects. 6) Aside from The Three Broomsticks, Honeydukes, the post office, Zonko's, Gladrags, and the Shrieking Shack, what other places are there in Hogsmeade? It's supposed to be a village. And it may have a normal set of places to some degree for the muggle relatives to get in touch with their wizard families. Hermione's parents are muggles after all and they'd need some way to reach her if they couldn't use an owl. 7) Who lives in Hogsmeade, aside from the shop owners, and what do they do? Daily Prophet and Witch Weekly staffs, perhaps? The Weird Sisters when not on tour? --Guessing, Indigo From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 10 17:36:56 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:36:56 -0000 Subject: PoA Chapter 14 Summary In-Reply-To: <9g08oq+nli8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g0b7o+pkku@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20491 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" wrote: > Well, I know that I'm posting this a day early, but I'm going > out of town this week, and I wanted to make sure I was able to read > and respond to some of the replies before I leave. :) So, here you go. Great summary, Lyda! Thanks. This and The Egg and The Eye in GoF are my favorite chapters (guess why? ) > > 1) Snape's Grudge: Is it simply a long-standing hatred for > James' arrogance and a powerful jealousy about Quidditch? Is it > really all about the prank that MWPP pulled during their years at > Hogwarts? Or, as most of us suspect, is there something more? (Open > Season on Snape/Lily. Have at it.) Oh yeah, there's more. Snape/Lily, vampires (I think vampires are not supposed to be wizards and if Snape were found out, his wand would be snapped) > > 2) It's insinuated that Snape knows perfectly well who Messrs. > Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs are. So, why doesn't he question > Lupin straight out, rather than being so indirect? He's being his devious self, hoping that Lupin or Harry will confess something incriminating. > > 3) Why is it that Hagrid's great guilt trip makes Ron incredibly > uncomfortable, but yet he still treats Hermione like dirt? Don't > Hagrid's words mean *anything* to him? Poor Ron, he's like a lot of people who don't know how to back down. Haven't you ever noticed that the faults people complain about in others are the ones they have themselves? It's not only Hermione who has to be right all the time. > > 4) How on earth did Hermione find that time to help Hagrid, when > it's quite obvious that she has barely enough time for all of her > homework and classes? Would she use the Timeturner to help her look > up stuff for Buckbeak's case? Hermione's a clever student and makes sure her assignments do double duty. I'll bet all her essays that year had a hippogriff angle. > > 5) After the Hogsmeade incident, has Malfoy now figured out that > Harry owns an Invisibility Cloak? I wouldn't be surprised. Will he try to steal it? > > 6) Aside from The Three Broomsticks, Honeydukes, the post office, > Zonko's, Gladrags, and the Shrieking Shack, what other places are > there in Hogsmeade? The Hog's Head pub mentioned in SS/PS. I think there's a Dervish and Bangs also. Non-canonically: a potions ingredients shop, a broomstick mechanic's garage, a bakery, a magical creatures surgery, a market square. I think a wizarding market held weekly would be a splendid idea, which our students haven't visited because they only get to go on Saturdays. > > 7) Who lives in Hogsmeade, aside from the shop owners, and what do > they do? Hags, and other such magical beings as find it difficult to "pass". There must be some ghosts too, although perhaps it would be tactless to say they *live* there House Elves, doing the dishwashing and such at TTB. I've wondered before how Hogsmeade can be maintained as a strictly magical settlement without apartheidt or red-lining. It's human nature to mingle. Even "exclusive" gated communities of the Muggle kind have their illegal live-ins. Will this be another injustice for Hermione to discover and agitate about? Pippin From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 10 17:37:44 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 10:37:44 -0700 Subject: Looks - Cho - Wands - Goyle Message-ID: <3B23B068.B4E4D10C@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20492 Flying Ford Anglia wrote: > Adolescent blood, pus and grease aside (JKR hasn't really > gone there, so why should we?), She hasn't given them magical cures for bad eyesight or dumpiness, but she HAS given them bubotuber for acne. I imagine the Hogwarts students are an unusually clear-skinned group of teens. Vicki Granger wrote: > Harry seems to only have a crush on Cho > for her looks and Quidditch abilities. I think Harry's response is only to her looks, not even to her Quidditch abilities (he got that lump in his tum BEFORE the match), but I don't consider Harry's feeling about Cho to be REALLY a crush. Just an aesthetic admiration: he likes to look at her. But he doesn't show any interest in daydreaming about kissing her, or her saying "I love you, Harry". My theory is that Harry's unfortunate childhood (loss of beloved parents at an early age, followed by abuse from foster parents) left him remarkably but not totally unscarred: it did leave him with a reluctance to get emotionally close to anyone. Ron, Hermione, and Sirius got through that wall of reluctance, but the wall IS still standing and making him very slow to get into the emotional part of puberty. In my opinion, Harry doesn't even HAVE a sexual orientation yet! > She also always has friends around her (couldn't be bothered > to find the quote) so that seems to make me think she's 'popular'. > I hate the 'popular' group *lol* The' popular' group, until university, was always mean to me, too. But Cho, as Jenny from Ravenclaw has already pointed out in this thread, is not shown being mean to anyone. she is shown as being quite nice. Maybe the reason she's well-liked (by Ravenclaws, bookish people) is because she's nice! JKR has made me like Cho despite her popularity as well as making me like Oliver (and Harry!) despite him being a jock. > I think the Asian thing is a reason Harry likes her, Considering that what he likes is her looks, and he liked her looks at first sight, and she is far from the only pretty girl at Hogwarts (Harry liked looking at her more than at Fleur: "They make them just fine at Hogwarts"), I think she must have some resemblance to someone he loved as a baby, or perhaps a teacher who was kind to him in primary school. "The Asian thing" makes it unlikely that it is Lily or James like whom she looks. Ebony wrote: > What annoys me are several fanfics that I have read in > which the author has decided to make Angelina white > on purpose (snip) Imagine the cries of "sacrilege!" there > would be if one made Hermione out to be biracial, the > Weasleys Hispanic, or the Malfoys Asian with bleached-platinum hair. In the first three books, I thought Hermione was a light-colored 'black' whose parents or grandparents had come to Britain from the Caribbean. Florence wrote: > I suspect Charlie did have a hand-me-down wand at first > (perhaps it belonged to a desceased great uncle or something). > Why else would he have replaced it other than to get one that > was a better match for him? OK, so it was looking a bit worn > (unicorn tail poking out), but to my mind that also suggests that > it probably wasn't new to him. You are probably right. However, we don't know how long it takes a wand to wear out, and we don't know whether it is normal for a people to stick with one wand for a lifetime. Maybe they normally get a new wand when they outgrow the old. Maybe they normally get an additional wand specialized for their profession, while keeping their student wand for home uses. All we know is that Ollivander, first meeting Harry, referred to his mother getting her 'first wand'. First? Milz wrote: > When I read that Goyle's first name was "Gregory", I began > playing with the name. "Greg Goyle" is similar to "gargoyle". Yes, but it would be even more similar if he were Garth Goyle. -- /\ /\ + + Mews and views >> = << from Rita Prince Winston ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 10 17:48:49 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:48:49 -0000 Subject: PoA Chapter 14 Summary In-Reply-To: <9g0b7o+pkku@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g0bu1+lcjd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20493 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > Hermione's a clever student and makes sure her assignments do > double duty. I'll bet all her essays that year had a hippogriff > angle. Not her Muggle Studies essays! From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Jun 10 17:52:18 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:52:18 -0000 Subject: PoA Chapter 14 Summary In-Reply-To: <9g08oq+nli8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g0c4i+20g6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20494 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" wrote: Nice summary! > > Questions and Ruminations: > > 1) Snape's Grudge: Is it simply a long-standing hatred for > James' arrogance and a powerful jealousy about Quidditch? Is it > really all about the prank that MWPP pulled during their years at > Hogwarts? Or, as most of us suspect, is there something more? (Open > Season on Snape/Lily. Have at it.) Okay, I'm fairly sure that there is more to Snape's grudge than just jealously, but in reality, we can loathe others for small reasons. I work with someone who I dislike enough to frequently fantasize about slapping her or seeing her get fired, but nothing especially explosive has happened between us. It is possible that James and his popularity and Quidditch talent are enough to make Snape hate everything about him, in much the same way Draco's jealousy of Harry makes him compete with Harry and insult Harry at every chance he can. > > 2) It's insinuated that Snape knows perfectly well who Messrs. > Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs are. So, why doesn't he question Lupin straight out, rather than being so indirect? I never got the feeling that he knew who MWPP were until just now, but Snape is not really one to go blurting out others' secrets, being so secretive himself. Besides, what might Lupin have on Snape that he could use for retaliation? > > 3) Why is it that Hagrid's great guilt trip makes Ron incredibly > uncomfortable, but yet he still treats Hermione like dirt? Don't > Hagrid's words mean *anything* to him? Ron is stubborn, prideful and holds grudges quite well. As Indigo mentioned, Hermione has also shown no remorse for the apparent loss of Scabbers. I'd be upset with her, too. Also, Hagrid's talk made Ron feel *uncomfortable*, not necessarily bad. > > 4) How on earth did Hermione find that time to help Hagrid, when > it's quite obvious that she has barely enough time for all of her > homework and classes? Would she use the Timeturner to help her look > up stuff for Buckbeak's case? You'd be surprised at what you can do with time when you are motivated. Obviously, with or without the Time Turner, Hermione knows how to budget her time. I also don't think she's getting much sleep. > > 5) After the Hogsmeade incident, has Malfoy now figured out that > Harry owns an Invisibility Cloak? Hey, you can't prove what you can't see, right? Even if Malfoy knows Harry has an invisibility cloak, Harry can still stand next to him wearing it and Malfoy would never know. > > 6) Aside from The Three Broomsticks, Honeydukes, the post office, > Zonko's, Gladrags, and the Shrieking Shack, what other places are > there in Hogsmeade? I picture it as a small village, especially from GoF when H,H and R go to visit Sirius and just a block or two after Dervish and Banges (another place in the town), the village seemed to pretty much turn into the countryside. I imagine that there are some witches and wizards who live there, and that's about it. Kind of like a small New England college town or something. > On an extra note, one of my favorite scenes of all 4 books so far is when the Marauder's Map insults Snape. I have to hand it to Harry for not laughing when those insults came up on the map! --jenny from ravenclaw******************* From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 10 18:01:39 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:01:39 -0000 Subject: PoA Chapter 14 Summary hippogriffs In-Reply-To: <9g0bu1+lcjd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g0cm3+3pg5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20495 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > > > Hermione's a clever student and makes sure her assignments do > > double duty. I'll bet all her essays that year had a hippogriff > > angle. > > Not her Muggle Studies essays! LOL! But you underestimate Hermione. I'm sure that she was able to report on the history/efficacy of measures to prevent Muggle/hippogriff interaction! Pippin From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 18:39:25 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:39:25 -0000 Subject: FF: Pretty stereotypes (some SHIP too) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9g0est+3te8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20496 --- "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" wrote: > > You know, I think I may one of the only people who likes the idea > of Harry/Cho much more than Harry/Ginny. At this point in canon, > I think Cho would be a much better match all things considered > (I'm in the middle of re-reading CoS today). And I think there's > stronger canon evidence for Harry/Cho than there is for Harry/ > Ginny. (I have an idea that the Harry/Ginny ship's biggest > supporters come from Ron/Hermione shippers that... > never mind. ) Each time, I read comments here on the Harry/Ginny possibility, I can't help but think that it's a one-off solution to Harry and Ron being best mates, but not "in that way". *shrugs* (Don't beat me over the head on that one. As I've said before, I don't care how the ships come in....) ....Craig From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Jun 10 18:48:58 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:48:58 -0000 Subject: Dark Arts Are Fought By DADA (filk) Message-ID: <9g0feq+99o5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20497 Dark Arts Are Fought by DADA (To the tune of My Heart Belongs to Daddy) Dedicated to Rebecca Bohner The Scene: The Defense Against Dark Arts classroom. Enter Quirrell, Lockhart, Lupin and Moody/Crouch) ALL Good wizards fall If in the thrall Of those who call On dark forces So it is taught How they are fought When you are brought To our courses ALL (except LUPIN) Though the theme's solemn Yet we comprise a fifth column ALL Defense we teach, but sometimes preach A practice dark and diabolic MOODY & QUIRRELL Cause we're so bad, LUPIN or quite moonbeam mad LOCKHART Or just anti-workaholic MOODY We teach effects of hateful hex LOCKHART Or how best to recapture pixies LUPIN Of boggart lore I have tons galore QUIRRELL But we do play fiendish tricks, see ALL (except LUPIN) Yes, Dark Arts are fought by DADA But some of us keep going bad We three have all tried to harm Potta Rat-tat-tat Rat-tat-tat Rat-tat-tat LUPIN >From Moody whose eye was mad-da To Quirrell who kept Voldy at rear All of Hogwarts ought to be glad-da That those guys just lasted one year ALL Yes, Dark Arts are fought by DADA But DADA doesn't always mean well Next year, DADA will be a lady With some shady secret to tell LUPIN You'll seek it, She'll tweak it She won't dare to speak it The secret of your next DADA (Exit all) - CMC From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 10 18:59:19 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:59:19 -0000 Subject: Dark Arts Are Fought By DADA (filk) In-Reply-To: <9g0feq+99o5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g0g27+gr9m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20498 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > Dark Arts Are Fought by DADA My heart belongs to CMC's filks. Delicious! From catz109 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 19:13:24 2001 From: catz109 at hotmail.com (catz109 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:13:24 -0000 Subject: Looks - Cho - Wands - Goyle In-Reply-To: <3B23B068.B4E4D10C@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9g0gsk+k66k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20499 > > She also always has friends around her (couldn't be bothered > > to find the quote) so that seems to make me think >she's 'popular'. > > I hate the 'popular' group *lol* When I first read about Cho, I always thought of her as a cheerleader- ish type, but when I re-read the books, and read other peoples views, that changed. You can pick out that she is very probably nice, and popular because of it. >I think she (Cho) must have some resemblance to someone he (Harry) loved > as a baby, or perhaps a teacher who was kind to him in primary >school. Hmm...Never thought of that! Good observation. Which makes me wonder...When Dudley was bullying Harry all through school, don't you think the teachers would have got involved? Maybe they did, and the Dursleys just ignored it? One to ponder... > In the first three books, I thought Hermione was a light- >colored 'black' > whose parents or grandparents had come to Britain from the >Caribbean. Funny you should say that, I thought that, for the most part of book 1 on my first read. It was the name that did it i think, I had never heard it before. >Maybe they normally get an additional wand > specialized for their profession, while keeping their student wand for > home uses. All we know is that Ollivander, first meeting Harry, referred > to his mother getting her 'first wand'. First? >From reading the books, we know that every wand is good for something different. So maybe having a few will make certain spells better, depending on which wand they used. Which makes me wonder; what did Ollivander say Harry's wand was good for, if at all? ~*Rebekah*~ From klhurt at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 19:56:05 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly the Yarn Junkie) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape's Secret(s) Message-ID: <20010610195605.72603.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20500 IF (and that's a big if) Snape is a Vampire, perhaps Hermione hasn't twigged to it yet because of a Fidelius Charm? Also, if you were Dumbledore & were going to ask someone to be a double-agent, couldn't you 'hide' the spying with a Fidelius charm? Kelly the Yarn Junkie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bohners at pobox.com Sun Jun 10 20:41:42 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:41:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dark Arts Are Fought By DADA (filk) References: <9g0feq+99o5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <02bd01c0f1ef$8f972920$33b9e2d1@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20501 > Dedicated to Rebecca Bohner You made my day, Caius. Thank you! -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From reanna20 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 21:17:36 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pretty Stereotypes In-Reply-To: <20010610055344.43422.qmail@web12601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010610211736.61303.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20502 --- Julie aka Viola wrote: > And, Amber wrote: > > Hrm, I thought the reason people usually bash Cho in fanfic is > > because they either want Harry to end up romantically with > > someone else in the canon or because they're *jealous* that Cho has > > captured Harry's attention. Has nothing to do with Cho personally, > > the authors just don't want Harry to end up with her. Makes sense, > > one normally wants the main hero to end up with a developed > > character and Cho hasn't exactly been developed yet. > > That is to some extent true, but I've been really > disturbed by the number of comments I've heard (read?) > that describe Cho as "a girl like that" or "one of > those types." In my opinion, those are some of the > most destructive labels women can put on one another. > Not that I have any illusions that we're all (meaning > women in general) going to join hands like one big, > happy sisterhood, any more than any other group of > individuals could. ^_- But before I start quoting > Margaret Atwood at you I'll get back on track... Hrm, haven't seen this but I certainly can imagine it. I admit, I shouldn't be talking, the only Cho fic I've read portrayed her in a positive light. I don't understand how people can slot Cho negatively just because she's pretty, popular, and athletic (Oh, and Harry likes her ). In fact, if I think about it, she seems a lot like Angelina, Katie, and Alicia. Those three seem pretty, are Quidditch players, and seem to be well-liked by the other students. And I haven't read many fics that bash them. Eh, well, enough of my ramblings... ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/2/2001 "It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people." - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 22:18:15 2001 From: mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com (Michi) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Hagrid a Hufflepuff In-Reply-To: <9fvps6+1s8p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010610221815.60938.qmail@web3208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20503 --- aaronnicky95 at yahoo.com wrote: > I'm new here and I searched and searched to see if > this question had > been definitively answered, but I couldn't find > anything. I read in > the messages that JKR said he was in Gryffindor, but > that didn't seem > certain. I was sure when Hagrid said, "People say > Hufflepuffs are a > lot of duffers, but..." he was going to say, "but I > was in > Hufflepuff." That makes the most sense to me, yes > he is brave like a > Gryffindor, but his qualities as a friend are what > make him unique > and interesting. There doesn't seem to be any > support for this > theory, but I can't shake it. I apologize if this > ground has already > been covered. :) According to the Hagrid's information at the HP Lexicon (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hagrid.html) Hagrid was indeed a Gryffindor, not a Hufflepuff :) I wonder why it is though that Hufflepuff is so overlooked. It was nice in GoF to see a Hufflepuff neck and neck with a Gryffindor but still... (I lean much more towards Gryffindor anyways) Michi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 22:35:14 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time-turners In-Reply-To: <9fs7e3+rd55@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010610223514.89740.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20504 > I think that there would be very strict guidelines (set by MOM or > something higher and of international standing) on the use of the > timeturner, not necessarily because of the TT itself, but because > of the future consequences of any actions you may do while back in > the past. > > If there was not, why doesn't someone go back and kill Tom Riddle > before he turned bad ? > > Rowena How do we know someone won't? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From lilith_snape at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 22:41:18 2001 From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:41:18 -0000 Subject: PoA Chapter 14 Summary In-Reply-To: <9g08oq+nli8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g0t2e+9pib@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20505 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" wrote: > Well, I know that I'm posting this a day early, but I'm going > out of town this week, and I wanted to make sure I was able to read > and respond to some of the replies before I leave. :) So, here you go. > Ooooh, my favourite chapter from the book and possibly also from the entire HP verse! Good summary and *gasp* interesting questions. Let's get started. > > Questions and Ruminations: > > 1) Snape's Grudge: Is it simply a long-standing hatred for > James' arrogance and a powerful jealousy about Quidditch? Is it > really all about the prank that MWPP pulled during their years at > Hogwarts? Or, as most of us suspect, is there something more? (Open > Season on Snape/Lily. Have at it.) Believe me, it's more to it than an old schoolboy prank. There must be. I think we are going to get more secrets about Snape revieled in the near future, and those things will probably be of great importance. But on the other hand- you can hold grudges for a long time, and out of no reason in particular. I won't risk to get half of the list against me by saying this, but I also think that *if* Snape is a vampire, that might have something to do with the whole hatred. Maybe Potter and friends knew and told someone? It doesn't have to be Severus who's the baddie... > > 2) It's insinuated that Snape knows perfectly well who Messrs. > Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs are. So, why doesn't he question > Lupin straight out, rather than being so indirect? I don't see that he's got a reason to it. He cannot know for sure that Lupin gave the map to Harry and without proof it can easily turn out the wrong way and Snape wouldn't be someone who wants to risk that. And I do believe that the teachers at Hogwarts, no matter what they might think about each other, keep a polite and mature atmosphere while discussing in front of the students. Besides- it's tricky and touchy stuff with Sirius Black being one of the Four, and it just seems unlikely that Snape would risk anything in this situation. Besides, if Lupin knows about that vampire secret, Snape would rather show up in the Great Halls dressed like Neville's grandmother, than get his vampirism brought up to daylight! He wouldn't provoke him. > > 7) Who lives in Hogsmeade, aside from the shop owners, and what do > they do? I believe that witches and wizards of all kinds live there, just like any other town. There are probably more to Hogsmeade than the shops. Lilith Morgana ---who must admit that she tends to find the vampire theory unbelievable but very good to explain holes in the Severus Snape Background with...--- From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Jun 10 22:43:44 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:43:44 -0000 Subject: Quidditch and Social Structure thoughts In-Reply-To: <9fvsfk+b6ve@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g0t70+8n42@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20506 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > > Is there anyone in Beauxbatons that does play Quidditch? I can't > quite wrap my mind around the idea that they actually have a > Quidditch following there. > Nothing is stated directly about Beauxbatons and Quidditch, but French teams are mentioned in QTA: "In France, the frequent league winners the Quiberon Quafflepunchers are famed for their flamboyant play as much as their shocking-pink robes." And don't forget the Quidditch allusion in the classic play, "Helas, Je me suis Transfigure Les Pieds." - CMC From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 22:57:58 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as vampire In-Reply-To: <9fm7ij+luar@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010610225758.49336.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20507 > Go back to the scene in > the forest between Quirrell and Snape: > > 'You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell, 'said Snape, taking a > step towards him.' > 'I-I don-t know what you-' > 'You know perfectly well what I mean.' > > What does Quirrell know? Quirrell doesn't know anything like what you mean. He's saying that he doesn't understand why Snape is having this discussion with him, that he's not done or doing anything wrong. Snape of course doesn't believe him. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sun Jun 10 23:01:29 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:01:29 -0000 Subject: Of cliches and characterisation In-Reply-To: <002e01c0f0f8$1c804d60$1691aecb@price> Message-ID: <9g0u89+rqlf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20508 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: . Trumpeting Hermione as her > Strong Female Character but then having her go to pieces in crises, and > having males as the main players in the action throughout. When does Herminone "go to pieces?" True, she doesn't take the initiative in the confrontations with Dark Forces, but she stands shoulder to shoulder with Harry when he does. Harry would have never got through the maze in PS/SS without her; in CoS, he might never have figured out what was slithering around in Hogwarts' pipes without her scholarship. She take the lead in the time-turner episode, and has to frequently restrain Harry from imprudently revealing himself (which we see would have ruined their mission). She does pass out before the Dementors, but only after Sirius Black, and moments before Harry himself faints again. Under tremendous time constraints, she teaches Harry the Accio charm, which not only leads to his First Task triumph, but saves his neck at the Little Hangleton cemetary when he is able to summon the Portkey just in time to dodge Voldy's AK curse. She very coolly turns Rita Skeeter's treachery against her. - CMC From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 10 23:36:12 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:36:12 -0000 Subject: Of cliches and characterisation In-Reply-To: <9g0u89+rqlf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g109c+nvjh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20509 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > > > . Trumpeting Hermione as her > > Strong Female Character but then having her go to pieces in crises, > and > > having males as the main players in the action throughout. > > > When does Herminone "go to pieces?" Twice. Once, when she's trapped by the Troll in the bathroom in PS/SS, and once again when she wails,"There's no wood!" But Harry falls to pieces far more often, and Ron is upset by the very idea of the Grim. I think witches have just as much right as wizards to be panic-stricken. Pippin From Lindsay at stirton.net Sun Jun 10 23:44:00 2001 From: Lindsay at stirton.net (Lindsay Stirton) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:44:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time-turners In-Reply-To: <20010610223514.89740.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20510 > From: Magda Grantwich > Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:35:14 -0700 (PDT) > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time-turners > >> I think that there would be very strict guidelines (set by MOM or >> something higher and of international standing) on the use of the >> timeturner, not necessarily because of the TT itself, but because >> of the future consequences of any actions you may do while back in >> the past. >> >> If there was not, why doesn't someone go back and kill Tom Riddle >> before he turned bad ? >> >> Rowena > > How do we know someone won't? (1) Everything we observe we observe from the perspective of the present. (2) At the present, we observe that Tom Riddle grew up into the adult Lord Voldemort. Therefore (3) He was not killed as a child (regardless of whether the person who killed him previously lived in the future, before messing with a time-turner. Simple logic (but then as Hermione observes in PS/SS wizards are no good at logic). Lindsay Stirton From vaile2000 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 00:25:22 2001 From: vaile2000 at hotmail.com (Tina Smart) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:25:22 +1000 Subject: Question 3 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20511 >3) Why is it that Hagrid's great guilt trip makes Ron incredibly >uncomfortable, but yet he still treats Hermione like dirt? Don't >Hagrid's words mean *anything* to him? Ok, to me this had seemed obvious, though as I can now see it was my interpretation and not something that was written. I thought that the boys were ready to listen to Hagrid, or at least take on the idea. The uncomfortable looks said to me that they felt bad about how things were going with her. She had already tried to make it up with them and they had finally started to come round, until the whole cat-rat thing. My opinion is that the whole Hogsmede thing just tipped them over the edge again, it was just too many things all at once. I mean, what are the things they value most (materially anyway)? Their pets, quidditch and going to Hogsmede. And she's taken all of them away, even if not quite directly or completely. So in answer to the question, I think Hagrid's words mean a lot to them, only it's circumstance changes it all. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 01:02:25 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma Moniz) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 01:02:25 -0000 Subject: PoA Chapter 14 Summary In-Reply-To: <9g08oq+nli8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g15b1+10j9o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20512 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" wrote: > Well, I know that I'm posting this a day early, but I'm going > out of town this week, and I wanted to make sure I was able to read > and respond to some of the replies before I leave. :) So, here you go. Have lots of fun, wherever you're going! > Questions and Ruminations: > > 1) Snape's Grudge: Is it simply a long-standing hatred for > James' arrogance and a powerful jealousy about Quidditch? Is it > really all about the prank that MWPP pulled during their years at > Hogwarts? Or, as most of us suspect, is there something more? (Open > Season on Snape/Lily. Have at it.) I'm tempted to think that James, and now Harry, was everything Snape wanted to be. Popular, a good Quidditch player, surrounded by a close-knit group of friends and generally a success. James had a girlfriend who was, by most opinions, highly attractive and a success in her own right. Harry now is filling those shoes, and he is given leeway by Dumbledore. I think Snape never had any of those things, and I think he's seeing James over again, and some of those old wounds are opening up. Snape seems bitter and vindictive, but I don't doubt that he is on the right side. I'd probably lash out at Harry, too. > > 2) It's insinuated that Snape knows perfectly well who Messrs. > Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs are. So, why doesn't he question Lupin straight out, rather than being so indirect? Professionalism. Snape may be a slimy jerk at times, but I think he knows better than to discuss something like that with a fellow teacher in front of a student. > > 3) Why is it that Hagrid's great guilt trip makes Ron incredibly > uncomfortable, but yet he still treats Hermione like dirt? Don't > Hagrid's words mean *anything* to him? I think Ron has some issues dealing with this kind of thing. He has to be right, and barring that, he has to come to the conclusion that is is wrong and has been a prat on his own. Otherwise, they don't stick. It's one thing to be told you're being a prat. It's another to realise it fully on your own. > > 4) How on earth did Hermione find that time to help Hagrid, when > it's quite obvious that she has barely enough time for all of her > homework and classes? Would she use the Timeturner to help her look > up stuff for Buckbeak's case? I think she was missing out on sleep, too, as has been previously suggested. Someone told me once that "sleep is what people do when they've run out of options." Hermione has plenty of options, and I think Hagrid is more important to her than her own well-being. Hermione seems to be willing to sacrifice a lot for her friends and for the greater good. She's made of stern stuff, our Hermione. > > 5) After the Hogsmeade incident, has Malfoy now figured out that > Harry owns an Invisibility Cloak? I wouldn't doubt it. I think he suspects a lot about Harry that we don't know, since the books are written from third person limited. > > 6) Aside from The Three Broomsticks, Honeydukes, the post office, > Zonko's, Gladrags, and the Shrieking Shack, what other places are > there in Hogsmeade? I really think Hogsmeade is a thriving wizarding community, with a grocer's and all sorts of things like that. There's probably a bunch of little houses and I'd say some kind of village green where they have fairs and markets and such. There's probably some kind of government building, too, other than the post office. However, I wouldn't know a whole lot about how a British town would look, as I've grown up in the American South. > > 7) Who lives in Hogsmeade, aside from the shop owners, and what do > they do? Well, have Floo Powder, will travel, I'd wager. I think there are a lot of witches and wizards in Hogsmeade; they just happen to commute to various wizarding jobs around the country. Maybe Hogsmeade is the wizarding world's equivalent of the suburbs? ~Emma From priscilla at theninemuses.net Mon Jun 11 01:08:19 2001 From: priscilla at theninemuses.net (Priscilla Spencer) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:08:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Under the Lake (filk) Message-ID: <00c001c0f213$01d4d640$0300a8c0@cm637715-b> No: HPFGUIDX 20513 That was absolutely hilarious! Well done, Pippin. I especially love that line about "he's a survivor/with moral fiber". Priscilla -----Original Message----- From: foxmoth at qnet.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 09, 2001 8:21 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Under the Lake (filk) Under the Lake A filk by Pippin to the tune of Under the Sea Scene: the Prefect's bathroom Enter HARRY with the egg clue. He runs a bath, takes off his clothes and gets in the water HARRY I shoulda been a whole lot keener Why did I procrastinate? Was I dreaming about going up here What for did I have to wait? Just look at the mess I'm in now Right here in the Prefect's bath Then Myrtle comes out of hiding Just what is she lookin' at? Under the foam, under the foam There'll be no gawking Don't you be stalking Leave me alone! I'll hit the books I'll read all day Where there's a wand there'll be a way Some spell bequeathing How to be breathing Under the foam [Some days later, Harry falls asleep in the library and is wakened by Dobby] HARRY Under the lake where the merfolk ramble They have taken what I'll sorely miss Past an hour it'll be a shamble Worse than being dementor kisssed But the hostages are lucky I'm in for a worser fate Everybody's gonna know I blew it I'm gonna be Draco bait DOBBY Under the lake, under the lake It will be breezy, You'll find your Weezy, Make no mistake Although you isn't find the book With gilly weed you's off the hook Having no troubles Under the bubbles Under the lake Under the lake, Under the lake No need to fake it You're going to make it Under the lake [cut to under water] MYRTLE Though Diggory and Viktor Krum and haughty Fleur away have swum You will surprise 'em, we'll Myrtle-ise 'em Under the lake HARRY When I feed on the weed I'm an ace in this race I'm all grins with my fins I've got gills on my face The bass I can pass The chub I won't flub It's no fluke I'm the duke of this pond V. Krum will look dumb No Ced up ahead I'm sure to pass Fleur The squid must have fled Like smelt and like sprat I'll leave them all flat And flow past that grindylow Under the lake (under the lake) Under the lake (under the lake) What the merpeople think they can keep will Soon make a break What do they got? A lotta sand I'll free each hostage from that band Fleur will be 'appy, I saved her Gabby Under the lake! [Harry frees Gabrielle and Ron and they swim ashore. Fleur ecstatically kisses Harry and Ron] HERMIONE Fleur was a drown out Harry got Ron out Under the lake! VIKTOR [aside to Hermione] Don't vant to share ya Come to Bulgaria Under the lake! CEDRIC [aside to Cho] Why don't we try it Before I buy it. Under the lake! JUDGES Top marks for Potter Under the water He did the task here More than we asked here He's a survivor With moral fiber Under the lake! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From natabat at crosswinds.net Mon Jun 11 01:31:28 2001 From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:31:28 -0700 Subject: Krum and Hermione Message-ID: <002701c0f216$3d359d20$0101a8c0@hp> No: HPFGUIDX 20514 Pippin's "Under the Lake" filk just sparked off this random thought. What does it say for Krum's home/school life if Hermione is what he will miss most? He must have no close friends or family members. That could certainly explain why he seems to be sullen and bitter most of the time. Waiting for all the wonderful character insights you guys are sure to come up with, Natalie natabat at crosswinds.net http://www.natabat.barrysworld.net ----- To err is human To purr feline. - Robert Byrne From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com Mon Jun 11 02:00:28 2001 From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:00:28 -0000 Subject: PoA Chapter 14 Summary In-Reply-To: <9g15b1+10j9o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g18ns+je8i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20515 Emma wrote: > Have lots of fun, wherever you're going! Thanks. :) I'm going to New York with our theatre department. But, man, am I ever going to miss the Internet... ;) > I'm tempted to think that James, and now Harry, was everything Snape > wanted to be. Popular, a good Quidditch player, surrounded by a > close-knit group of friends and generally a success. James had a > girlfriend who was, by most opinions, highly attractive and a > success in her own right. Harry now is filling those shoes, and he > is given leeway by Dumbledore I'm not going to deny that Snape most definitely harbors some jealousy for the Potters. BUT, I think there's certainly more to it than simply pettiness. I think he thinks he's doing Harry good by getting on his case the way he does. Harry, in Snape's eyes, is a boy who demonstrates an extraordinary amount of overconfidence, brashness, and foolishness. He thinks that Harry sees himself as invincible. What's worse is Snape also sees that Harry is being reinforced for his behavior by the people who "pamper" and bend the rules for him. Snape's response, therefore, is to try to make Harry see how regular he really is. Like Malfoy, Snape does not think that the scar makes Harry anything special. Also, there's the issue of allegiance to Voldemort. I think that Snape wants to keep his reputation as a Gryffindor-hating, Dark Arts- loving kind of guy, for his own protection and, if he has gone back to spy, in order to be reinstated as a DE. If, by favoring the pure- blood Slytherins and such, he keeps the ex-DE parents happy and is trusted by *them*, then it makes it easier for him to survive when Voldemort returns. Then also, it would be necessary to demonstrate the most antipathy possible to Harry Potter, Voldemort's enemy #1. Which, for Snape, is an easy thing to do, since he really *does* despise the boy. To Snape/Lily for a minute: I don't believe this. For one, if Snape really ever loved Lily, I don't think he would treat her son in such a fashion. Even if it was necessary, and even if he does look like James. > Professionalism. Snape may be a slimy jerk at times, but I think > he knows better than to discuss something like that with a fellow > teacher in front of a student. Perhaps. I considered this. Someone else suggested that he actually wasn't aware of the MWPP stuff, but I think he definitely is aware, or he wouldn't have asked the "directly from the manufacturers" question. A lot of you also said that he avoided direct confrontation because Lupin has the vampire card up his sleeve. I do not think he skirted the question because of the "vampire" stuff. No. I just don't think he's a vampire. I'd definitely think it more likely that he did so because 1) it's his nature to be really indirect and 2) even he didn't want to discuss anything such as this in front of a student. Kind of makes you wonder if he might have confronted Lupin later on in the staff room or something though. > I think Ron has some issues dealing with this kind of thing. He > has to be right, and barring that, he has to come to the conclusion > that is is wrong and has been a prat on his own. Otherwise, they > don't stick. It's one thing to be told you're being a prat. It's > another to realise it fully on your own. Quite true. Most of you guys said something along the same lines, also citing the fact that Hermione doesn't show remorse herself, and that the circumstances after Hagrid's talk affected how they regarded her. I admit I have a soft spot for Hermione, especially in PoA. I knew exactly how she felt in PoA during this past year (my senior year); I took a full load of honors/advanced classes, I was trying to be Valedictorian, plus I had my extracurricular activities to contend with. Luckily, I had people (my friends, my family) who knew how hard I was working and were willing to put up with me even when I was my nastiest and snapped at everyone who even spoke to me. So, I kind of feel, I guess, a bit biased toward Hermione, because her friends nearly deserted her when she was going through all this. She definitely feels for her friends, and she worries for their safety, but she just gets a bad rap for her concern. And they don't even give her the leeway with the fact that she's working herself to the bone. > I think she was missing out on sleep, too, as has been previously > suggested. Someone told me once that "sleep is what people do when > they've run out of options." Hermione has plenty of options, and I > think Hagrid is more important to her than her own well-being. > Hermione seems to be willing to sacrifice a lot for her friends and > for the greater good. She's made of stern stuff, our Hermione. Yup, I think that she's definitely in need of some serious coffee all throughout PoA; I doubt she's getting much sleep at all. But the thought just crossed my mind, and I did kind of wonder if she might have considered ever using the Timeturner to help her out with Hagrid's case. I think it's more likely that, like someone else said, she just put a hippogriff twist to every essay she wrote. :) > I wouldn't doubt it. I think he suspects a lot about Harry that we > don't know, since the books are written from third person limited. I think Malfoy by now has figured out the Cloak, but like one of you guys said, he can't prove it, and if Harry was standing right next to him in tha cloak, he couldn't see him. :) However, it could prove to be a chip he could use later. Snape, head of Slytherin and known Malfoy favorer, does know about Potter's Cloak. Not that I'd ever think he'd dare to tell Malfoy. But... > I really think Hogsmeade is a thriving wizarding community, with a > grocer's and all sorts of things like that. There's probably a bunch > of little houses and I'd say some kind of village green where they > have fairs and markets and such. There's probably some kind of > government building, too, other than the post office. However, I > wouldn't know a whole lot about how a British town would look, as > I've grown up in the American South. Ditto on the American South. :) I personally agree with what most of you guys have said: that Hogsmeade is a nice little village community, with all the normal things a village community would have. Probably like a Diagon Alley with more cottages. :) Oh, and thanks for the reminder, whoever mentioned that about the Hog's Head Pub; I'd forgotten. > Well, have Floo Powder, will travel, I'd wager. I think there are > a lot of witches and wizards in Hogsmeade; they just happen to > commute to various wizarding jobs around the country. Maybe > Hogsmeade is the wizarding world's equivalent of the suburbs? I'd always thought that Hogsmeade was a place for wizards/creatures who did not want any contact with the Muggle world. So, yeah, in that aspect, I suppose it would be like wizarding suburbs. :) I imagine they would Apparate or use Floo Powder to get to work in London or wherever they'd go. Whoever suggested a Witch Weekly or Daily Prophet office in Hogsmeade-- that's kind of interesting. Got to keep up with the events at Hogwarts somehow, I guess. :) Lyda From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 11 02:06:14 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:06:14 -0000 Subject: Krum and Hermione In-Reply-To: <002701c0f216$3d359d20$0101a8c0@hp> Message-ID: <9g192m+aaco@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20516 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" wrote: > What does it say for Krum's home/school life if Hermione is what he > will miss most? He must have no close friends or family members. > That could certainly explain why he seems to be sullen and bitter > most of the time. He has parents, both of whom come to the Third Task to watch and cheer for him. I don't know if he has any siblings or a childhood best friend from primary school, but he *must* have one or more Quidditch coaches that have played a big role in his life, or he wouldn't have been good enough for the World Cup team. If he doesn't have any close friend at Durmstrang, that would tend to indicate that Durmstrang is as evil as Draco's praise of it indicated and that Viktor is too good for it. However, I believe that the reason why Hermione was what he would miss most is that he is REALLY serious about her. >> To err is human > To purr feline. > - Robert Byrne Meow! From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 02:08:20 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:08:20 -0000 Subject: Charlie's hand-me-down (?) wand In-Reply-To: <9fvtt1+f8ru@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g196k+caf0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20517 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" wrote: > I suspect Charlie did have a hand-me-down wand at first (perhaps it > belonged to a desceased great uncle or something). Why else would he > have replaced it other than to get one that was a better match for > him? OK, so it was looking a bit worn (unicorn tail poking out), but > to my mind that also suggests that it probably wasn't new to him. > Also, Charlie (by my reckoning) would have been starting school around > the same year the twins were born, which would have meant plenty of > extra expenses. All very possible. Knowing that Charlie was "great with animals" and a particular favorite of Hagrid, and as we know gravitated toward dragons, I have another suggestion: his wand has had a few run-ins with some of the fiercer beasts. Like the professor's limbs, it probably got chewed more than once in Care of Magical Creatures. He probably bought himself a new one the moment he landed the dragon-taming job. Amy Z ------------------------------------------------ "Flint nearly kills the Gryffindor Seeker, which could happen to anyone, I'm sure . . . " -HP and the Philosopher's Stone ------------------------------------------------ From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Jun 11 02:22:12 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:22:12 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Krum and Hermione In-Reply-To: <002701c0f216$3d359d20$0101a8c0@hp> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610191438.03925b30@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20518 At 06:31 PM 6/10/01 -0700, Natalie wrote: >What does it say for Krum's home/school life if Hermione is what he will >miss most? He must have no close friends or family members. That could >certainly explain why he seems to be sullen and bitter most of the time. The bitter way in which he speaks of "Durmstrang with Kakaroff" and the way Dumbledore looks at him when he says, "All will be welcome to return" makes me think Viktor indeed is not happy there... I see Durmstrang as a sort of a school-sized Slytherin. But the same question could be asked of Cedric -- What he'll miss most is a girl he only started dating a couple of months prior??? -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Jun 11 02:25:12 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:25:12 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fat Slytherins? - Ugly Slytherins? - glasses - Pretty stereotypes In-Reply-To: <9fu5j8+95h2@eGroups.com> References: <9fu1lq+qt46@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610181941.038a35b0@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20519 At 09:48 PM 6/9/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote: >Who are the fat Slytherins? IIRC Millicent Balustrode is described as overweight. My perception of all the Slytherins are skewed by my experience... I imagine Malfoy to resemble my nemesis in high school (who was small scrawny and needed thuggish "Crabbes and Goyles" to do his dirty work). I imagine Pansy Parkinson to resemble the sexy but stuck-up prom princess who called me a "common geek" when I asked her to a dance. Snape is kind of a gestalt composite of all my worst teachers. >Really good point. JKR's portrayal of Cho is very positive; whatever >stereotypes fanfic authors may harbor about pretty girls, JKR is >skewering them, not supporting them. I think the "Evil Cho" perception comes from our (misdirected) love for Harry, like a mother who assumes that any girl who has the effrontery not to be in love with her boy *must* be a slut. -- Dave From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com Mon Jun 11 02:26:12 2001 From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:26:12 -0000 Subject: Krum and Hermione In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610191438.03925b30@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9g1a84+oil3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20520 Perhaps it's just because it is much easier to get someone who is already present at Hogwarts than to go elsewhere and bring back a person for the task. Well, I guess, they brought Gabrielle for Fleur, but maybe there was an easy reason for that. Lyda --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > At 06:31 PM 6/10/01 -0700, Natalie wrote: > >What does it say for Krum's home/school life if Hermione is what he will > >miss most? He must have no close friends or family members. That could > >certainly explain why he seems to be sullen and bitter most of the time. > > The bitter way in which he speaks of "Durmstrang with Kakaroff" and > the way Dumbledore looks at him when he says, "All will be welcome > to return" makes me think Viktor indeed is not happy there... I see > Durmstrang as a sort of a school-sized Slytherin. > > But the same question could be asked of Cedric -- What he'll miss most is > a girl he only started dating a couple of months prior??? > > > > -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Jun 11 02:41:41 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:41:41 -0700 Subject: Time-Warner article -- TWO Dark Lords?? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610181839.00c1ca50@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20521 My Time-Warner-owned cable operator's newsletter has a short article on the film this month. There's something weird about it, though. Not only do they speak of "J.K. Rowlings"; not only do they caption a still of the "Letters from No One" scene as "Harry makes magic in the living room", but they say that "Harry is orphaned by two powerful Wizards". Umm... *TWO*?? What are they referring to? Surely they're not going to reveal anything about Wormtail in the first film (unless they show Sirius "blowing up the street" and getting arrested and let movie-goers think he's the accomplice for 2 & 1/2 films)?? Or are they going to implicate Quirrel?? Or did the author simply not read the books, but did hear something about that dastardly duo of dark lords, Volde and Mort? -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Mon Jun 11 02:51:20 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:51:20 -0700 Subject: Gryffindor -- The "Composite" House? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610181802.00c1ee80@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20522 There's been a lot of talk about why isn't Hermione in Ravenclaw, why wasn't Hagrid in Hufflepuff, etc... Well, I was wondering if maybe Gryffindor is a house for people who are so multi-faceted they can't be classified into any other house? So for example, Hermione (who is smart, but is brave and loyal too) goes into G, and Percy (who is ambitious, but is smart as well) goes into G? Also, in regard to Gryffindor glasses, I stand by my theory from way back that there is something significant about the spectacled Gryffindors, something that goes all the way back to Godric himself (whom, I believe, also wore glasses). -- Dave From joym999 at aol.com Mon Jun 11 02:59:43 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:59:43 -0000 Subject: Time-Warner article -- TWO Dark Lords?? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610181839.00c1ca50@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9g1c6v+h3qu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20523 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > My Time-Warner-owned cable operator's newsletter has a > short article on the film this month. There's something weird > about it, though. Not only do they speak of "J.K. Rowlings"; > not only do they caption a still of the "Letters from No One" > scene as "Harry makes magic in the living room", but they > say that "Harry is orphaned by two powerful Wizards". Umm... > *TWO*?? What are they referring to? Surely they're not going > to reveal anything about Wormtail in the first film (unless they > show Sirius "blowing up the street" and getting arrested and let > movie-goers think he's the accomplice for 2 & 1/2 films)?? Or > are they going to implicate Quirrel?? Or did the author simply > not read the books, but did hear something about that dastardly > duo of dark lords, Volde and Mort? > Or is their command of grammar so poor that "Harry is orphaned by two powerful Wizards" is their way of saying that Harry is orphaned when his parents, two powerful Wizards, are killed? --Joywitch From devika261 at aol.com Mon Jun 11 03:01:40 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:01:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gryffindor -- The "Composite" House? Message-ID: <3d.ce82142.28558e94@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20524 In a message dated 6/10/01 10:55:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes: > Also, in regard to Gryffindor glasses, I stand by my theory from > way back that there is something significant about the spectacled > Gryffindors, something that goes all the way back to Godric > himself (whom, I believe, also wore glasses). > Sorry if I'm missing something, but what was the original argument about glasses? Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu Mon Jun 11 03:15:49 2001 From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 03:15:49 -0000 Subject: Krum and Hermione In-Reply-To: <002701c0f216$3d359d20$0101a8c0@hp> Message-ID: <9g1d55+253r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20525 I get the feeling that the judges just picked an appropriate hostage from those at hand, and didn't really dig deeply to find the *one person in all the world* who each champion valued the most. In addition, since there were other parts of the song that weren't intended to be taken literally, why not this part as well? More generally, you can't quite trust anything that's said in JKR's books to be literally true. Part of this is because events are being interpreted from Harry's POV, and Harry has limited knowledge and a tendency to jump to conclusions. In addition, she gives her characters human frailties and other nuances. For example, Lockheart, faux Moody, Quirril, Snape, and Sirius were not what they seemed at first, and even Hagrid has a tendency to skirt regulations and embellish facts. -Jim F. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" wrote: > What does it say for Krum's home/school life if Hermione is what he > will miss most? From tmayor at mediaone.net Mon Jun 11 03:18:42 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 03:18:42 -0000 Subject: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 Summary) In-Reply-To: <9g08oq+nli8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g1dai+83gp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20526 First off, before I get into my extremely-nitpicky-but-to-me-hugely- troublesome question below, I have to get on my soapbox for a minute and say that I think "Snape's Grudge" is the single best-written chapter in Harry Potter so far (this makes up for my recent bash of JKR on the FAT issue). In one chapter, we get enormous and emotional leaps forward in character development for Harry, Lupin, and most of all Snape (who *wouldn't* want to play him onscreen after reading his lines in this chapter alone?). We get major plot developments, some of which last into book 4 and presumably 5-7. And in one chapter we get not one but two of the best speeches in the entire series: Snape to Harry ("let the ordinary people worry about his safety! Harry Potter goes where he wants to...") and Lupin ("Your parents gave their lives to keep you alive, Harry. A poor way to repay them...") That said, I wonder if there's anybody willing to "go deep" with me on this "directly from the manufacturers" quote. I have never understood it from the moment I first read it. Consider: If Snape *does* know who MWPP are 1) why call Lupin? The second Snape sees their names appear under the very specific insults directed his way, it would be obvious (if he knew who they were) that the parchment (he doesn't yet know it's a map) is some artifact left over from their time at Hogwarts. Why call Remus? 2) Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Snape does know who they are and that he calls Lupin (who would in that case be "one of them") to confront him directly. If so, what exactly is he saying by asking if Harry got it "directly from the manufacturers?" Of the four manufacturers, Pettigrew is believed to be dead by everybody but Sirius. Sirius is still believed by Harry and Snape and even Lupin at this point to be murderously after Harry and so therefore not supplying him with useful gifts. So Snape is either asking Lupin, "Did Harry somehow get this map from his dead father?" or "Did you, a person I already suspect as aiding and abetting Sirius Black, give this map to Harry?" The former is nearly impossible, given Harry's complete ignorance of his father pre- Hogwarts and his 11-year imprisonment at the Dursley's, which Snape presumably knows about. So, by process of elimination, is Snape really asking Lupin, "did you give this to Harry?" But if that is what Snape's asking--if he knows who MWPP are in other words--it seems completely out of character (and also irresponsible as a teacher and official Hogwarts gadfly) that Snape would let the momentary noise of Ron bursting in and the extremely mild blustering of Lupin distract him enough to let them all leave his office scott- free and with the map in tow. If you remove that one sentence ("directly from the manufactuers") from the chapter, everything else Snape says and does before and after (even the shrieking shack scenes later on) seems to indicate that he of course knows who James etc. were but *doesn't* know them by their nicknames, Moony Wormtail Padfoot and Prongs. In which case, what the heck *did* Snape mean with his "manufacturers" line? ~Rosmerta who's been waiting for this chapter to come up so she could ask this question--can you tell? From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 11 04:22:40 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:22:40 -0000 Subject: Ol' Snapey is a Vamp (filk) Message-ID: <9g1h2g+3okv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20527 That's Why Ol' Snapey is a Vamp A filk by Pippin to the tune of That's Why The Lady is a Tramp Dedicated to the rest of you true believers He gets real hungry, he could eat quarts But they don't serve type A blood at Hogwarts And Dumble would grumble, if people he ate Cause he knows Snapey is a vamp. If he's a vampire, Severus Snape, That explains why he keeps swishing his cape And why Quirrel kept garlic next to his nape Because ol' Snapey is a vamp He loves his long, black, greasy hair Eyes that can scare He's mean, but he's ok He hated Potter for being a champ Did James know Snapey is a vamp? Doesn't like Harry, Hermione or Ron He's seldom in sunlight, he always looks drawn He never laughs with the rest of the throng Because ol' Snapey is a vamp From toomanyideas at aol.com Mon Jun 11 04:26:16 2001 From: toomanyideas at aol.com (toomanyideas at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:26:16 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor -- The "Composite" House? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610181802.00c1ee80@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9g1h98+f9rk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20528 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > There's been a lot of talk about why isn't Hermione in Ravenclaw, > why wasn't Hagrid in Hufflepuff, etc... Well, I was wondering if > maybe Gryffindor is a house for people who are so multi-faceted > they can't be classified into any other house? So for example, > Hermione (who is smart, but is brave and loyal too) goes into G, > and Percy (who is ambitious, but is smart as well) goes into G? > > Also, in regard to Gryffindor glasses, I stand by my theory from > way back that there is something significant about the spectacled > Gryffindors, something that goes all the way back to Godric > himself (whom, I believe, also wore glasses). > > > -- Dave I couldn't bring myself to believe that Gryffindor is a "composite" house. All people are multifaceted, and the beauty of the sorting hat is that it recognizes the persons most significant strengths (and in Harry's case recognized his strong will NOT to be recognized for his S-like potential). Hermione might well be the smartest person in the school, but she is also certainly one of the very bravest--the kind of bravery she displays is far more unique and powerful than her intelligence. Even if her bravery is compelled by the more H-like trait of loyalty to her friends, not everyone has the kind of bravery to pull it off. And she certainly is brave to go her own way in GoF. Think about how much bravery it takes to think for yourself at that age! Percy hasn't shown much bravery yet, but he hasn't found himself yet, even though he should be older and wiser. His inner bravery doesn't make him less naive. And Hagrid--yes, loyal would describe him well, but it takes a lot of bravery to put up with all the teasing he has dealt with his whole life. And his way with those cute little dangerous creatures must from an inner bravery (that many might find stupid, but....) It takes a lot of bravery to stand up to such awful abuse--and even imprisionment! And we all know how brave Neville is now, even if the other kids at Hogwarts won't see it yet. Anyway, this is my first posting. Sorry for rambling on. Just happy to have found this outlet for From fruitloophotty at aol.com Mon Jun 11 04:33:32 2001 From: fruitloophotty at aol.com (fruitloophotty at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:33:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Looks - Cho - Wands - Goyle Message-ID: <7f.15a27bce.2855a41c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20529 I've been reading all these messages referring Cho, and after reading a few that really sparked my interest I had to reply. First off I don't think popularity has anything to do with Harry liking Cho. I'll admit to thinking his feelings for her are based on her looks, but really. . .isn't that how it is with all teenage boys his age? And is there really any evidence that Cho is popular at all? Sure she always has a group of friends surrounding her, but didn't we all have our little clique in high school? What really bothers me is that the fact that Cho could be popular factors into people's opinion of her. Not all popular people are rude-airhead-snobs that can't count to ten like they are so often stereotyped to be. Sure, it has been awhile since I was in school, but I remember being part of the so-called "in-crowd." I was a not only a cheerleader and Homecoming Queen, but also *gasp* in honors classes and part of the National Honor Society. I just hate the fact that people are judged by what group they hang out in. I'll admit that some popular students could get rather big heads and pick on others, but not all of them were like that. Being popular really puts you under a microscope with other students. Students love to hate the popular kids, and call them snobs, etc., but do they realize how stereotypical of them it is to sit there talking about the "popular group" when they more than likely don't even know the first thing about their true personality. I tried to be nice to everyone during my high school days. The secret to my popularity: I never restricted myself to one group. I had all sorts of friends from all sorts of groups. And even though it has been over ten years since I was in high school, it still angers me when I see kids being judged by who they hang out with and what they wear, whether they are popular or not. I know this really has nothing to do with the Harry Potter books. I realize this, and am prepared to get the snot flamed out of me. But I absolutely had to get this out when I read a few of the comments referring to the subject of Cho. The people who made them probably meant no harm. . .but I just had to reply. --Connie, who prepared to be hated by all those on the list [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joym999 at aol.com Mon Jun 11 04:36:10 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:36:10 -0000 Subject: Gryffindor -- The "Composite" House? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610181802.00c1ee80@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9g1hrq+vqnh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20530 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > > Also, in regard to Gryffindor glasses, I stand by my theory from > way back that there is something significant about the spectacled > Gryffindors, something that goes all the way back to Godric > himself (whom, I believe, also wore glasses). Godric Gryffindor wore glasses? 1000 years ago? Hard to believe, even for a wizard. --Joywitch From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 11 04:46:17 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:46:17 -0000 Subject: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 Summary) In-Reply-To: <9g1dai+83gp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g1iep+7seu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20531 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" wrote: > If you remove that one sentence ("directly from the manufactuers") > from the chapter, everything else Snape says and does before and > after (even the shrieking shack scenes later on) seems to indicate > that he of course knows who James etc. were but *doesn't* know them > by their nicknames, Moony Wormtail Padfoot and Prongs. In which case, > what the heck *did* Snape mean with his "manufacturers" line? > Suppose that Snape recognizes the *parchment*, not the knicknames, from his school days. He doesn't know that Filch confiscated it. He doesn't know it's a map, but has always suspected it has something to do with the way the Marauders were able to slip in and out of the grounds. When Snape finds the parchment on Harry, he suspects that Sirius has given Harry the parchment in hopes of luring him out of bounds. He calls Lupin, probably expecting that Lupin will identify the parchment and that it came from Sirius. Lupin, who knows that Filch had the map, pretends not to recognize it, thus arousing Snape's suspicions that Lupin and Sirius are in league. At that point, Snape lets loose with his "from the manufacturers" line, meaning Sirius and Lupin. But since Snape doesn't know who MWPP are, and Harry obviously doesn't either, Snape hasn't got anything concrete, so he has to let Harry go. I expect Snape doesn't reveal that he's seen the parchment in the past because he too was out of bounds or spying at the time. Pippin From tabouli at unite.com.au Mon Jun 11 04:53:12 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:53:12 +1000 Subject: Cultural values and beauty Message-ID: <004f01c0f232$8784fc60$9f90aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 20532 Ooo, lots of replies to my post! Let me see. Ebony wrote: > Another issue that's been bothering me: I don't think it's valid to say that JKR is being intentionally PC by sprinkling in so-called "ethnic" characters. I'm sure the books would have sold just as well if all the characters had been white, just like a lot of children's books with an all-white cast sell well. (Which is why I laugh at those who bemoan the tide of multiculturalism in kidlit and education in general--they must not have been to the children's section in their local Borders lately.) I wasn't implying that JKR was doing the "ethnic sprinkle" for commercial reasons, nor do I deny that an all-white cast would have sold just as well. However, I do think she's being "intentionally PC", or rather, being tokenistic, a well-meaning "white majority" writer trying to do the representative thing, but (so far) nervous of tackling the subject in any depth or developing these characters to any significant degree. Notice that in GoF she's been quite happy to take on issues of prejudice and stereotyping with regard to other species, such as giants and house elves, so it's not that she's oblivious to these issues. Perhaps she's hinting that cultural and racial differences are irrelevant in the magic world, because everyone identifies as magic in contrast to the muggles and other magical species. Or that Cho and the Patils and Angelina and co are completely assimilated to British culture. Or maybe, considering how involved the books are already, she's decided to make a token gesture in the right direction and put it in the too hard basket... > I really like the way Rowling handles ethnicity--she mentions it, then lets the kids act like all the other kids instead of venturing into dangerous ethnic stereotypes like too many writers do. Perhaps for HP's target age group this is a reasonable approach. All the same, I believe that pretending that cultural differences don't exist at all (or are purely cosmetic, e.g. they look different and eat different food but we're really All The Same) can actually end up causing more problems. The most important thing about different cultures is not the cosmetic stuff, but the fact that they operate by *different values and norms* (different priorities, different ideas about what consistutes appropriate behaviour, different standards for judging people, etc.). Individuals within each culture may well reject some of these values, depending on their personality, experiences, choices, level of exposure to other cultures, etc., but the cultural framework in which they were raised will inevitably have shaped who they are. By saying that "everyone's the same", one is effectively imposing one's own cultural rules on people who do not share them and are hence likely to break them, causing offence or confusion at first (when the "all the same" advocate attributes the rule violation to personality) and ultimately prejudice and stereotyping (when the advocate can't help noticing that almost *all* people from that cultural group violate that rule). I'd prefer the option of teaching people that their own cultural rules are not universal, that there are other valid sets of rules out there which should be respected, and to remember that rules are not prescriptive (i.e. the fact that a culture has a particular rule does not mean all individuals in that culture will follow it). On my own part, I'm sure that parents' reactions to having a different, "magical" child would be very closely related to their cultural values. And what about religion? Imagine a fundamentalist Christian family who believe that magic is evil discovering that Junior is a wizard! The mind boggles... > And yes, it's just a work of fiction. But reading too much into this particular work of fiction is what this group is all about. ;) Hear, hear! (or is it hear, here?) Hey, JKR can write whatever she wants, but that doesn't mean we can't dissect what it actually *is* that she wants, and *why* she wants it, and *how* she expresses it, and so on, and so on (poor woman). Julie said: > The appearance issues definitely cut both ways. When in the books have we met a very attractive person who was worthwhile? Lockheart is rubbish, Narcissa Malfoy is (we assume) snotty and horrible and Cho Chang is little more than a plot device, to name a few. > It just struck me as odd, Fleur being the only female - and a bit dangerous in a story so peopled with male characters already. I agree. I thought Fleur was one of the weaknesses in GoF, to be frank. Gah. As for beauty, this raises an issue on which I've long speculated... beauty, especially in a woman, is a double-edged sword. OK, sure, so the media tells us that the thin pretty girls have it all, and that girls who aren't are invisible or worthless, but from my observation of beautiful women it's not so simple in real life. Being ugly is a lot worse, sure, but beauty doesn't guarantee happiness by any means. For a start, a large proportion of plainer women can get very nasty and jealous, and try to redress the balance by finding other flaws to prove she's unworthy of her looks (she's just a total bimbo, she's so arrogant, etc.) and rejoicing in the beleagured beauty's misfortune. For another thing, being the target of constant sexual attention from heterosexual men is not all beer and skittles... as a teenager it can be very frightening, and can set up a pattern of her entire self-esteem hanging on her looks, leading to extreme self-consciousness, insecurity if a man *doesn't* show interest, obsession about her looks, despair at the ageing process, etc. Moreover, in the men department, I suspect there may be a quantity vs quality issue here... a lot will be intimidated, a lot who aren't will be shallow trophy hunters who'll probably recycle her at 35, and so on. One thing I particularly liked about "American Beauty" was its portrayal of the darker side of being a beautiful teenage girl. I'd say the best place on the scale to be is somewhere between average and beautiful... Returning to HP, from the books and interviews with JKR, I'd say Ron and Hermione is a foregone conclusion. Someone asked JKR during a chat if Harry and Hermione would get together and she replied "Do you think they're suited?". In another, someone asked if something was going on between Ron and Hermione and she laughed and said yes, but Ron hasn't quite twigged yet. Harry is more open to speculation. Remember that JKR said that in GoF the trio all fall in love with the wrong people, so I'd say Cho's unlikely. My guess is that Harry will find out in OoP that it isn't to be. Ginny's always seemed to me to be sweet and earnest, but a bit lacking in oomph and zing... all that mooning after Harry and embarrassing him! Maybe as she grows up she'll develop a bit more gumption and make more of an impression on him. Speaking of which, Hermione must have done a lot of extra ageing in PoA... maybe that's why she's so much more mature and politically aware in GoF! Vicki said: > I think the Asian thing is a reason Harry likes her, all the asians I've met (that's quite a few) all tend to have an easier passage through the grease stage than the rest of us... *mutters* it's so unfair... Alex said: > And we Asians do *not* have an easier time through high school, especially if one's from the traditional East Asian family. It's ridiculously difficult, in fact. I'm with Alex on this one. My mother is Malaysian Chinese, with strident traditional values (my father is Anglo-Australian), and my adolescence was a war zone. The majority of my friends at this time were also Chinese-Australian, and nearly all of them had the same sorts of problems, mostly revolving around the areas where the values of the wider Australian society clashed most seriously with the values they'd imported from Asia (independence, relationships, study, deference to elders, etc.). In my case, this clash also overflowed into my parents' bicultural marriage, with my brother and I getting very different messages about what was appropriate behaviour, how a parent should relate to a child, etc. etc. from either parent. Yes, my rantings earlier in this post on cultural values do have some basis in personal experience... As for "the Asian thing", I assume Vicki means the exotic alluring inscrutable factor. I can't speak for Harry (!), and I know some Asians see such ideas as objectification, but I do know that looking different but palatable to local tastes is a winner in a lot of societies. Blondes and redheads who visit Asia and Southern Europe will get just as much if not more attention than Asians in predominantly Caucasian populations. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 11 04:53:46 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:53:46 -0000 Subject: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 Summary) In-Reply-To: <9g1dai+83gp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g1isq+6l1s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20533 Rosmerta's text that I am replying to is below my answer because it is long: I believe that Snape doesn't know the nicknames Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs. But when the parchment insulted him, he recognized the Very Same Phrases that Potter, Black & Co had insulted him with back in schooldays. This made him suspect that Potter, Black & Co were involved in making the magic parchment, which made him suspect that Lupin, as the only one of 'em left, had given Harry the parchment. Snape had nothing to go on but a suspicion, a hunch, so he tried to trick Lupin into confessing. The "manufacturers" line was an attempt to bluff Lupin that Snape knew more than he really did. But Lupin out-tricked him and avoided telling him anything. So Snape is left without nothing but his suspicion, no evidence, no confession, and Dumbledore has repeatedly made it clear (altho' we only SEE him doing so after the Fat Lady was slashed) that he doesn't want to hear any mere suspicions against Lupin from Snape. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" wrote: > If Snape *does* know who MWPP are 1) why call Lupin? The second > Snape sees their names appear under the very specific insults > directed his way, it would be obvious (if he knew who they were) > that the parchment (he doesn't yet know it's a map) is some > artifact left over from their time at Hogwarts. Why call Remus? > > 2) (Snip) So, by process of elimination, is Snape > really asking Lupin, "did you give this to Harry?" > > But if that is what Snape's asking--if he knows who MWPP are in > other words--it seems completely out of character (and also > irresponsible as a teacher and official Hogwarts gadfly) that > Snape would let the momentary noise of Ron bursting in and the > extremely mild blustering of Lupin distract him enough to let them > all leave his office scott-free and with the map in tow. > > If you remove that one sentence (snip) everything else Snape says > (snip) seems to indicate that he of course knows who James etc. > were but *doesn't* know them by their nicknames, Moony Wormtail > Padfoot and Prongs. In which case, what the heck *did* Snape mean > with his "manufacturers" line? From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com Mon Jun 11 04:59:16 2001 From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:59:16 -0000 Subject: Was Hagrid a Hufflepuff In-Reply-To: <9fvps6+1s8p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g1j74+ap7i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20534 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., aaronnicky95 at y... wrote: > I'm new here and I searched and searched to see if this question had been definitively answered, but I couldn't find anything. I read in the messages that JKR said he was in Gryffindor, but that didn't seem certain. I was sure when Hagrid said, "People say Hufflepuffs are a lot of duffers, but..." he was going to say, "but I was in > Hufflepuff." That makes the most sense to me, yes he is brave like a Gryffindor, but his qualities as a friend are what make him unique > and interesting. There doesn't seem to be any support for this > theory, but I can't shake it. I apologize if this ground has already been covered. >>>>>> Oh, don't apologize at all; it's been mildly discussed, but that was a while ago. I believed Hagrid was in Huff, too, both from the cite you give, and from the fact that on the train in SS/PS when he was taking Harry into London (to the Leaky Cauldron and Diagon Alley) to buy his school supplies, he begins knitting what looks like 'a canary yellow circus tent' (Huff color). Also, I thought I had remembered it being stated straight out that he was in Huff, but couldn't find it in canon. Susan helpfully pointed out that I was remembering it from the Scholastic quiz--a question asked what house he was in, and the 'correct' answer was Huff. Apparently this question has been removed from the quiz, since JKR confirmed in a chat that he was in Gryff. (She was definite in her answer, btw.) Personally, I believe she originally intended for him to be Huff, but maybe there's some future plot point that hinges on him being a Gryff. Regardless, I find I still think of him as a Huff, so you're not alone. Kelley From ebonyink at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 05:37:08 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 05:37:08 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cultural values and beauty Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20535 Up late... :) Tabouli wrote (among other thought-provoking things--great post!): "Perhaps she's hinting that cultural and racial differences are irrelevant in the magic world, because everyone identifies as magic in contrast to the muggles and other magical species. Or that Cho and the Patils and Angelina and co are completely assimilated to British culture." This is exactly what I think is going on. Except I don't think Cho, the Patils, and Angelina are necessary assimilated to *British* culture... they were born to wizarding families. I think that JKR is dealing with the issue of racism and bigotry in other ways. Let's not forget that this is not the Muggle world we're dealing with in the books. ;-) This is *not* to say I believe in characters whose ethnicity is only skin deep. In my original fiction, almost all of my characters are of African descent, with a smattering of 'Ricans, Mexicans, and folks from the islands--my own family, my own ethnic makeup. As a young writer who hadn't experienced much outside her world, I naturally began with what I knew. Even when I started writing Harry Potter fanfiction, I chose to deal with Africa and its Diaspora in this milieu and how magic fit into the slave trade. I plan to speculate on the Latin American side of the wizarding world in another fic. However, those are my personal choices as a writer. I do not feel as if they have to be Jo Rowling's. I don't feel as if Rowling has some sort of sociocultural obligation to explore every Muggle ethnic group represented in the books. The books are not about exploring Muggle heritage. The books are not a self-esteem program. They are about magic. (For more on why the Let's Show the Characters' Ethnic Differences! idea is extremely problematic, please refer to my recent post on "multiculturalism" in the OT-Chatter list archives.) Sure, it'd be interesting to see what Rowling would do with exploring the so-called ethnic characters lives' in depth. Personally, I'd *much* rather see this not done at all than done poorly... and too often it is done *poorly*. This well-meaning sentiment that misses the mark is summed up excellently by a young black engineer in a study on race and culture who said, "Don't presume you know what it's like to be me, that you know more about me than I know about myself just because you've walked a mile in my shoes. I've walked *hundreds* of miles in these shoes, and I still don't understand everything about my journey." Too often, when I read about black and Hispanic characters in unexpected places, I cringe. Or grit my teeth. Or feel as if I am being lectured by a teacher who is unqualified to deliver the lesson in the first place. In those cases, I find myself wishing the author had just left well enough alone. So the problem we face is this. How, then, do you write a mulitfaceted character from a culture that is not your own, having them retain their authenticity? Cultural nuances are often so subtle that you run the risk of offending a whole lot of people if you get it wrong. Research only goes so far. So does knowing only a handful of people from the group in question. I like it when I'm pleasantly surprised. And I can't tell you why at nearly 2 a.m., but the Harry Potter series pleasantly surprised me when it came to ethnicity of characters. This is just my personal preference, but I appreciate it a lot better when a writer allows me, the reader, to fill in the blanks instead of filling them in incorrectly with guesses and half-baked stereotypes. I appreciate JKR immediately for doing this, and plan to follow her example in my own writing. --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com Mon Jun 11 06:10:22 2001 From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:10:22 -0000 Subject: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 Summary) In-Reply-To: <9g1dai+83gp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g1nce+fie9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20536 Rosmerta wrote: > I think "Snape's Grudge" is the single best-written > chapter in Harry Potter so far (this makes up for my recent bash of > JKR on the FAT issue). I like this chapter very much, as well. Obviously why I wanted to summarize it. :) > That said, I wonder if there's anybody willing to "go deep" with me > on this "directly from the manufacturers" quote. Oh, yeah. I've been kind of wondering about htis myself. But, I have my "theory". :) > 2) Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Snape does know who > they are and that he calls Lupin (who would in that case be "one of > them") to confront him directly. If so, what exactly is he saying > by asking if Harry got it "directly from the manufacturers?" Of the > four manufacturers, Pettigrew is believed to be dead by everybody > but Sirius. Sirius is still believed by Harry and Snape and even > Lupin at this point to be murderously after Harry and so therefore > not supplying him with useful gifts. > is Snape really asking Lupin, "did you give this to Harry?" Yes. That is precisely the question Snape is asking. Lupin indicates later in the Shrieking Shack that he, Sirius, James, and Pettigrew actually called themselves Moony, Padfoot, Prongs, and Wormtail in school. Probably only in their private conversations, but, if Snape was as sneaky and suspicious as they make him out to be, it seems likely that in his routine attempts to find out what they were up to once a month, he would have heard them referring to each other by their nicknames, and probably wondered where they got it from, as well. So, that's how he would know who exactly MWPP are. One of my questions with the plot summary was why Snape simply wasn't more direct in his quesioning of Lupin, rather than skirting about the issue with his whole "manufacturers" line. It doesn't seem to be his nature to ask things directly, though. He kind of beats around the bush, savors a person's discomfort. He certainly does so with Harry. Anyway, I think what he was doing here was asking the question in order to get an idea of *what* Lupin knew about Harry's possession of the map. He was trying to see if Lupin would lie to him about the map, and he was giving his indirect hint that he *knows*. > But if that is what Snape's asking--if he knows who MWPP are in > other words--it seems completely out of character (and also > irresponsible as a teacher and official Hogwarts gadfly) that Snape > would let the momentary noise of Ron bursting in and the extremely > mild blustering of Lupin distract him enough to let them all leave > his office scott-free and with the map in tow. Quite true. When I raised the "directness" question, Emma replied that he had worded the question as he had because of professionalism. That even Snape, git that he is, wouldn't want to discuss such a matter in front of a student. Especially not Harry Potter. And especially if Lupin was innocent (which he was). Also, I'm not sure he really *knows* what the map is, although those insults ought to look familiar. Is it possible that he actually believes Lupin when Lupin says that the parchment just insults people (him)? After their treatment of him in school, it doesn't seem like too much of a leap to make. Why does he let them leave the office? Well, with Ron and Lupin siding with Harry, he has no case. Even though he knows that Lupin was a manufacturer of the map, he still doesn't *know* what it is (although his suspicions were quite accurate), and Lupin would surely just stick to his story about it being an insult-o-parchment. Which brings me to my question: Did Snape then, after the incident, confront Lupin about the map? I can see Snape cornering him in the staffroom, perhaps. Lyda From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com Mon Jun 11 06:37:40 2001 From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle at bigpond.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:37:40 -0000 Subject: Time-turners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9g1ovl+f6q5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20537 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Lindsay Stirton wrote: > > > > From: Magda Grantwich > > Reply-To: HPforGrownups at y... > > Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:35:14 -0700 (PDT) > > To: HPforGrownups at y... > > Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time-turners > > > >> I think that there would be very strict guidelines (set by MOM or > >> something higher and of international standing) on the use of the > >> timeturner, not necessarily because of the TT itself, but because > >> of the future consequences of any actions you may do while back in > >> the past. > >> > >> If there was not, why doesn't someone go back and kill Tom Riddle > >> before he turned bad ? > >> > >> Rowena > > > > How do we know someone won't? > > (1) Everything we observe we observe from the perspective of the present. > > (2) At the present, we observe that Tom Riddle grew up into the adult Lord > Voldemort. > > Therefore (3) He was not killed as a child (regardless of whether the person > who killed him previously lived in the future, before messing with a > time-turner. > > Simple logic (but then as Hermione observes in PS/SS wizards are no good at > logic). > > Lindsay Stirton My understanding is that if Tom Riddle was killed now, with the use of a time turner, than all that he would have done would have been obliterated - including all of the good that resulted indirectly from him living (think Ripping Yarns 'the curse of the claw'). Rowena, who can get very confused by time discussions From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 11 07:28:15 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:28:15 -0000 Subject: Krum and Hermione In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610191438.03925b30@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9g1ruf+cv36@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20538 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > At 06:31 PM 6/10/01 -0700, Natalie wrote: > >What does it say for Krum's home/school life if Hermione is what he will > >miss most? He must have no close friends or family members. That could > >certainly explain why he seems to be sullen and bitter most of the time. > > The bitter way in which he speaks of "Durmstrang with Kakaroff" and > the way Dumbledore looks at him when he says, "All will be welcome > to return" makes me think Viktor indeed is not happy there... I see > Durmstrang as a sort of a school-sized Slytherin. > > But the same question could be asked of Cedric -- What he'll miss most is > a girl he only started dating a couple of months prior??? > > > > -- Dave Couple of thoughts on this: it isn't what they'd miss most, but what they would sorely miss, so with 3 out of 4 champions they took the easier option and went for geographical closeness. I did find it strange that 3 out of 4 of the captives were people close to/or special to Harry, though. On Krum choosing Hermione. I agree that he probably doesn't fit into Durmstrang, and isn't particularly close to anyone there. I also see some parallels between him and Harry. Perhaps he is so surly as he is basically a shy person who happens to be good at Quidditch and doesn't enjoy the fame this brings. Apart from the fact he wanted to get to know Hermione, his spending so much time in the library shows that he either has to work hard, or has a similar attitude towards work as Hermione. He must have been spending a lot of time in there anyway to notice Hermione. On the other hand, he may have been using it to escape from all his admirors, and the other Durmstang students, if he doesn't get on well with them. I for one, was really pleased that he was so attached to Hermione. After the way Ron was behaving, she deserves it. Re Cedric. Just because he only started dating Cho a couple of months previously, doesn't mean he wasn't harbouring feelings for her before this. Catherine From lumen_dei at freeler.nl Mon Jun 11 08:05:44 2001 From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (Lumen) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:05:44 +0200 Subject: Mayhem at the ministery Message-ID: <000301c0f24d$bff54620$d12875d5@PoorClares> No: HPFGUIDX 20539 "Mayhem at the Ministry" - marginals .....Just imagine what the explosion must have been like at the M.O.M. the day young Barty Crouch was brought in with the Lastranges, and the Auror Frank Longbottom and his wife taken to St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies. It must have been sheer chaos.... Was there a grandfather clock with golden hands in the Crouch's house? We will never know. But if one stood there, the best bet is that Barty Crouch senior never bothered with it. For surely the golden hand with his son's name would have sung between "lost" and "in mortal peril" many times before it at last came to rest on "in prison".... full text www.geocities.com/lumen_dei/wink-gob2.html Maria Harry Potter's Philosopher's Shop -- "Have Wand, Will Wave" www.geocities.com/lumen_dei [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Allyse at my-deja.com Mon Jun 11 08:56:00 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:56:00 -0000 Subject: Krum and Hermione In-Reply-To: <9g1ruf+cv36@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g2130+hohr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20540 Natalie wrote: > > >What does it say for Krum's home/school life if Hermione is what > he will > > >miss most? He must have no close friends or family members. That > could > > >certainly explain why he seems to be sullen and bitter most of the > time. And Dave wrote: > > But the same question could be asked of Cedric -- What he'll miss > most is > > a girl he only started dating a couple of months prior??? I would suggest that the judges took the thing that the contestants would miss most *at that time*. Krum, who is stereotyped as a Durmstrang student and far away from home, surely cherishes his friendship with Hermione; Cedric, who walks the corridors hand in hand with Cho and is, perhaps, in the first throes of young love, would sorely miss this new relationship. (By this, I mean that if Cho is his first "serious" girlfriend, it is an element in his life he's never experienced before, and is therefore the thing he'd least like to have disappear.) Harry, who only made up with Ron three months ago after a protracted fight, would miss that rekindled friendship more than anything else. And Fleur, whose personality is not conducive to making friends at Hogwarts, might be feeling so lonely that she would like nothing better than to be together with her family, as represented by her sister. I think we can agree that Ron will probably not be the most important thing in Harry's life for the next several decades (if he lives... Don't lynch me, I love Ron too!), and that Krum will not pine for Hermione for the rest of his life. But *at the time* of the Second Task, those people were, quite possibly, the things that the champions would "most miss." Allyse From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 11 09:26:52 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:26:52 -0000 Subject: the Nature of Magic - Thin - Child Abuse - Multiculturalism - In-Reply-To: <9fu98h+ahjd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g22ss+phok@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20541 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: Maybe we > could say that JKR is portraying beautiful people as only human. > Fleur may be a lot of things, but, IMO, she's no Barbie doll. > > --jenny from ravenclaw***************************** IMO, a great many of the HP characters start off as stereotypes and then move out from that position. It's a Harry POV thing. The Unfair Teacher, the Wicked Uncle and Aunt (OK we haven't seen much movement there yet, but the diet is the thin end of the wedge). Dumbledore is no longer Santa Claus at the end of POA. Fleur starts to show her vulnerability after the second task, and we look back at her earlier haughtiness and realise the vulnerability was there all along. I hope we see more of her. Incidentally Hermione's Mary-Sue-ism (expression not known this side of the pond) could also be a Harry POV thing. David, just ploughing the clods in the dell From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Mon Jun 11 10:44:56 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:44:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time-Warner article -- TWO Dark Lords?? Message-ID: <43.16778af8.2855fb28@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20542 In a message dated 6/10/01 10:41:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes: << they say that "Harry is orphaned by two powerful Wizards". >> I wonder if this was just really bad writing, and they wanted to say, "Harry is the orphaned son of two powerful WIzards" (because (a) they can't write, and (b) they haven't read the book & don't undertsand the difference between Wizard and Witch. BTW - AKAIF, SIrius hasn't been cast for the movie, and Rufus Sewell is busy with other things right now (VBEG - he';s my top choice!) so I don';t think they'll be showing the Blowing Up of the Street scene in the PS/SS movie From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 11:00:12 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Krum and Hermione In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610191438.03925b30@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20010611110012.3922.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20543 But the same question could be asked of Cedric -- What he'll miss most is a girl he only started dating a couple of months prior??? -- Dave I just thought that was some goofy way of getting Hermione down at the bottom of the lake. It would make more sense for Harry to sit there and save Hermione than for him to originally (mind you) have the intentions of saving some complete stranger. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ebonyink at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 11:28:55 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:28:55 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Krum and Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20544 Allyse wrote: >I would suggest that the judges took the thing that the contestants >would miss most *at that time*. >I think we can agree that Ron will probably not be the most important >thing in Harry's life for the next several decades (if he lives... > Don't lynch me, I love Ron too!), and that Krum will not pine >for Hermione for the rest of his life. But *at the time* of the >Second Task, those people were, quite possibly, the things that the >champions would "most miss." > This is the best explanation I've ever read for the Second Task choices in hostages. I'm convinced. --Ebony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 11:33:43 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 Summary) In-Reply-To: <9g1dai+83gp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010611113343.31638.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20545 --- Rosmerta wrote: > So, by process of elimination, is Snape > really asking Lupin, "did you give this to Harry?" > > But if that is what Snape's asking--if he knows who MWPP are in > other > words--it seems completely out of character (and also irresponsible > as a teacher and official Hogwarts gadfly) that Snape would let the > momentary noise of Ron bursting in and the extremely mild > blustering > of Lupin distract him enough to let them all leave his office > scott-free and with the map in tow. Not really. He confronts Lupin with the map hoping to surprise him into a guilty admission that he gave it to Harry. Whatever excuse Lupin comes up with (and it's not a great one, IIRC), Snape isn't going to buy it. So Snape doesn't need to pursue the matter in front of Harry and Ron. He's got what he wants: Harry has a map once owned by James and gang; Lupin is the only gang member on the premises; Harry now has the map; ergo Lupin gave it to him; the map allows Harry to get out of Hogwarts without being detected; therefore the map is a Bad Thing that undercuts the efforts of everyone and their pet rabbit to protect Harry. Snape is certainly going to pursue the matter but not in front of Lupin and the kids. He's going to Dumbledore so he can be a hero and get Lupin canned. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 11 11:46:58 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:46:58 -0000 Subject: Question: Mary Sue In-Reply-To: <9g22ss+phok@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g2b3i+stmp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20546 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > Incidentally Hermione's Mary-Sue-ism (expression not known this side > of the pond) could also be a Harry POV thing. > > David, > just ploughing the clods in the dell Yes, I know this is probably OT, but what is a Mary-Sue-ism?? Catherine From simon at hp.inbox.as Mon Jun 11 11:57:37 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:57:37 +0100 Subject: FF: Question: Mary Sue In-Reply-To: <9g2b3i+stmp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20547 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > Incidentally Hermione's Mary-Sue-ism (expression not known this > side of the pond) could also be a Harry POV thing. Catherine: <<>> This term comes from fanfic. I believe it originally comes from Star Wars, where the character in question was named Mary-Sue. Mary-Sue is a perfect person, who comes into the story. A little mysterious she would, in HP terms, be cleverer than Hermione. Have all the males chasing after her, before she runs off to save the world. Or something like that. More information at: http://writersu.s5.com/history/marysue.html Usually she is the author insertion into the story and many look down on stories with a Mary-Sue in it. There is a male equivalent, but this is less clearly defined and not as common (possibly because there seems to be a much larger proportion of female than male writers - at least in the HP world). Simon -- "Insanity is inherited. You get it from you kids." - Anon --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 13:44:17 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:44:17 -0000 Subject: Time-Warner article -- TWO Dark Lords?? In-Reply-To: <43.16778af8.2855fb28@aol.com> Message-ID: <9g2hvh+qkui@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20548 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/10/01 10:41:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > DaveH47 at m... writes: > > << they > say that "Harry is orphaned by two powerful Wizards". >> > > I wonder if this was just really bad writing, and they wanted to > say, "Harry is the orphaned son of two powerful Wizards" (because > (a) they can't write, and (b) they haven't read the book & don't > understand the difference between Wizard and Witch. I think it's just poor research on their part. You see it all the time in cable industry publications. One of my favorites was my local cable guide's synopsis for "Anna and the King" last year which talked about "Mr. Yun-Fat". Of course, Chinese family names are usually given first, so the actor is "Mr. Chow". Yun-Fat is his given name. Oh well. > BTW - AKAIF, Just so you know, it's "AFAIK". ....Craig From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 14:13:36 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:13:36 -0000 Subject: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 Summary) In-Reply-To: <20010611113343.31638.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g2jmg+10vfk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20549 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich wrote: > > Snape is certainly going to pursue the matter but not in front of > Lupin and the kids. He's going to Dumbledore so he can be a hero and > get Lupin canned. Snape is going to pursue the matter but in his own way. As you said he isn't going to do anything else in front of the kids. I think that is why he doesn't just come right out and ask Lupin about it in the first place. He wants to question Lupin about it now but the darn kids are there so he has to put it in a way they won't be able to understand. But I don't think he went to Dumbledore. In GoF ch 35, Barty Crouch Jr. mentions using the map he took from Harry Potter. "Map? said Dumbledore quickly. "What map is this?" Doesn't sound like Dumbledore knew about any type of map. I know there has even been some discussion of where the map is now! I just don't see Snape running to Dumbledore to constantly *rat*. He does, though, express his opinions and concerns. I think by this time he has figured out Dumbledore isn't going to listen to anything he has to say about Lupin. I also don't think he questioned Lupin about it later. Snape just decided to take care of the matter in his way in his own time. Koinonia From margdean at erols.com Mon Jun 11 13:35:19 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:35:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FF: Question: Mary Sue References: Message-ID: <3B24C917.2E0CBB45@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20550 Simon wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > > Incidentally Hermione's Mary-Sue-ism (expression not known this > > side of the pond) could also be a Harry POV thing. > > Catherine: <<>> > > This term comes from fanfic. I believe it originally comes from Star Wars, > where the character in question was named Mary-Sue. Oh no, not Star Wars. Mary Sue was alive and well before Star Wars was drawn or thought of. To the best of my knowledge the term (and the name) come originally from Star Trek fan fiction, though the phenomenon itself is probably even older. > Mary-Sue is a perfect person, who comes into the story. A little mysterious > she would, in HP terms, be cleverer than Hermione. Have all the males chasing > after her, before she runs off to save the world. Or something like that. More > information at: http://writersu.s5.com/history/marysue.html > > Usually she is the author insertion into the story and many look down on > stories with a Mary-Sue in it. There is a male equivalent, but this is less > clearly defined and not as common (possibly because there seems to be a much > larger proportion of female than male writers - at least in the HP world). That seems to be true of fan fiction in general: the majority of the writers of it are female. --Margaret Dean From vderark at bccs.org Mon Jun 11 14:23:52 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:23:52 -0000 Subject: FF: Question: Mary Sue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9g2k9o+jber@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20551 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > > Incidentally Hermione's Mary-Sue-ism (expression not known this > > side of the pond) could also be a Harry POV thing. > > Catherine: <<>> > > This term comes from fanfic. I believe it originally comes from Star Wars, > where the character in question was named Mary-Sue. Oh, this predates Star Wars, as does my tenure within fandom. Mary- Sue was originally a crewmember aboard the USS Enterprise in a Star Trek zine in the early 70s. Back then, I was publishing my own zine handwritten and mimeographed. And conventions were simply about Star Trek and were very homemade and you knew everybody there. Now I publish the Lexicon with FAR more ease and reach FAR more people and fandom is FAR more complex and I know hardly anyone anymore. And everything from publishing to conventions as mainstream and extremely professional, even the stuff fans do themselves. How the world has changed... Steve "old guy muttering to himself" Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From mecks at prodigy.net Mon Jun 11 14:44:29 2001 From: mecks at prodigy.net (Michela Ecks) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:44:29 -0000 Subject: FF: Question: Mary Sue In-Reply-To: <3B24C917.2E0CBB45@erols.com> Message-ID: <9g2lgd+g86t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20552 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean wrote: > Simon wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > > This term comes from fanfic. I believe it originally comes from Star Wars, > > where the character in question was named Mary-Sue. > > Oh no, not Star Wars. Mary Sue was alive and well before Star > Wars was drawn or thought of. To the best of my knowledge the > term (and the name) come originally from Star Trek fan fiction, > though the phenomenon itself is probably even older. It originally came from the Star Trek fandom... :o) Paula Smith wrote a short story (I think it's no more than half a page long) where she summarized (mocked?) fan fiction that had a plot line where there is beautiful female who saves Kirk, Spock and Bones, does there job for them and had them all fall in love with her... (You can read the original story in Boldy Writing, A Trekker's Zine and Fan History: 1967-1987. I'm almost certain it's nearly impossible to get a hold of the original.) The actual phenomen of Mary Sues (sans identification) has been around for over 150 years. Pat Pflieger did an essay titled "Too Good to be True: 150 Years of Mary Sue" that can be found at http://www.merrycoz.org/papers/MARYSUE.HTM for any one really interested in the early incarnations. > That seems to be true of fan fiction in general: the majority of > the writers of it are female. Going really OT, Henry Jenkins I think hypothesized why this is true in "Textual Poachers." It had to deal with how people recounted stories... Michela Ecks - Spastic Hale Girl - :o) http://writersu.s5.com/ micecks on aim From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 15:50:09 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:50:09 -0000 Subject: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 Summary) In-Reply-To: <20010611113343.31638.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g2pbh+55lb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20553 Pippin wrote: > He confronts Lupin with the map hoping to surprise him > into a guilty admission that he gave it to Harry. Whatever excuse > Lupin comes up with (and it's not a great one, IIRC), Snape isn't > going to buy it. So Snape doesn't need to pursue the matter in front > of Harry and Ron. He's got what he wants: Harry has a map once owned > by James and gang; Lupin is the only gang member on the premises; > Harry now has the map; ergo Lupin gave it to him; Snape can't be sure on this point. I agree he's trying to surprise him into admitting he gave it to Harry--but failing a confession from Lupin, Snape has to consider the possibility that James left it to him and Lupin didn't even know he had it. Maybe that's why Snape doesn't say anything to Dumbledore--although he really ought to, not to rat on Lupin but to make sure it doesn't get back into Harry's hands. OTOH, maybe Lupin's "I'll take this back" is a clear enough message to Snape: "It's mine, I know you know it's mine, and I'm going to keep it--I won't let Harry have it." Still, the other reason Dumbledore should be told about it is that it would be very useful in watching for Black. Amy Z ------------------------------------------ Grenouille: I cannot go with you to the market today, Crapaud. Crapaud: But Grenouille, I cannot carry the cow alone. -Quidditch Through the Ages ------------------------------------------ From monika at darwin.inka.de Mon Jun 11 16:02:45 2001 From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:02:45 +0200 Subject: GoF CDs - Stephen Fry Reading Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20554 Hi, this is supposed to be a mere informative mail, so if you don't own the GoF CDs by Stephen Fry or consider to purchase them, you might just want to hit the delete key. I have bought the CDs and found that there were two faulty CDs in the set. If you also have this problem, don't hesitate to contact the publisher, Cover to Cover, and they will send you a replacement. They have told me that they had a batch of faulty CDs but only realized it when it had left the house (I have purchased them through Amazon.de). They can be found at http://www.covertocover.co.uk. I just thought maybe someone is interested in this information. Monika who still thinks that Stephen Fry is the perfect reader for the HP books ------ Book and movie reviews in English and German: http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 16:17:30 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:17:30 -0000 Subject: Krum and Hermione In-Reply-To: <9g1d55+253r@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g2quq+ioa5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20555 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Flanagan" wrote: > I get the feeling that the judges just picked an appropriate > hostage from those at hand, and didn't really dig deeply to find > the *one person in all the world* who each champion valued the > most. In addition, since there were other parts of the song that > weren't intended to be taken literally, why not this part as well? I have to disagree strongly. I don't think that Fleur's younger sister was readily at hand. Gabrielle was age eight which would have made her a bit young for Beauxbatons; therefore, I think it really wasn't a question of convenience.... ....Craig From landers at email.unc.edu Mon Jun 11 16:35:40 2001 From: landers at email.unc.edu (Betty Landers) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:35:40 -0400 Subject: Krum and Hermione Message-ID: <3B24F357.D4E06EB0@email.unc.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 20556 Hello all. I'm coming out of lerkdom for a moment or two to put my two knuts into the pot. I think the reason Krum and Cedric had Hermione and Cho instead of family was romantic love. We all know that love is a strong emotion, especially when it's new like an infatuation or a new relationship. Fleur and Harry, who have no romantic interests, have other bonds with the people. Ron is the first friend Harry made at Hogwarts, so no matter what happens, he'll always be special. Come to that, Ron is the first friend Harry ever has. Fleur may not have many friends, if any, because of how aloof she seems. However, family is usually important to someone, and for all we know, it may be all Fleur has. Just a thought. I"m going back to lerkdom before I get a thousand rottom tomatoes thrown at me for some reason. From litalex at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 17:07:52 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:07:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Krum and Hermione References: <20010611110012.3922.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008f01c0f299$0d84d0e0$b80ceda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20557 Hello, > But the same question could be asked of Cedric -- What he'll miss most is > a girl he only started dating a couple of months prior??? Hey, things like that happen. 'Young' people fall in and out of love really quickly. little Alex From litalex at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 17:20:40 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:20:40 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cultural values and beauty References: <004f01c0f232$8784fc60$9f90aecb@price> Message-ID: <009901c0f29a$d7009980$b80ceda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20558 Hello, > [snip about cultural differences] Hey, I *completely* agree! > On my own part, I'm sure that parents' reactions to having a different, "magical" child would be very closely related to their cultural values. And what about religion? Imagine a fundamentalist Christian family who believe that magic is evil discovering that Junior is a wizard! Do fundamentalist Christians exist in Britain? I was hoping that the species doesn't spread that far. Ick. I was thinking, though, how Cho's parents would have acted when they first discovered, assuming, of course, that they aren't completely British-ized. > As for beauty, this raises an issue on which I've long speculated... beauty, especially in a woman, is a double-edged sword. OK, I agree. Many people seem to consider my mom beautiful and the reaction she gets sometimes is nothing short of horrible, especially from many other women. I.e., she once worked as an insurance agent, and when the wife of her client saw her, the wife went absolutely chilly toward my mom and refused to let the husband alone in my mom's company. What's more strange is that my mom doesn't consider herself beautiful, but the fact that others do is bad enough. Which is why I think Fleur has a much more difficult time than everyone else in the book seem to think. I do like her, though, especially when she kissed Harry on the cheek. That was very cute, imho. > Returning to HP, from the books and interviews with JKR, I'd say Ron and Hermione is a foregone conclusion. Yay! I support that ship (which is strange, 'cause I've been advocating for Ron/Draco in my hpslash group...). > Maybe as she grows up she'll develop a bit more gumption and make more of an impression on him. I hope so, the poor kid. > Speaking of which, Hermione must have done a lot of extra ageing in PoA... maybe that's why she's so much more mature and politically aware in GoF! Don't know, isn't it just the usual thing of girls maturing faster than boys of the same age? Both physically and mentally? And emotionally. little Alex From lilith_snape at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 17:45:01 2001 From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:45:01 -0000 Subject: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 Summary) In-Reply-To: <9g1dai+83gp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g302t+7ker@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20559 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" wrote: > First off, before I get into my extremely-nitpicky-but-to-me-hugely- > troublesome question below, I have to get on my soapbox for a minute > and say that I think "Snape's Grudge" is the single best-written > chapter in Harry Potter so far (this makes up for my recent bash of > JKR on the FAT issue). This is an enormously well-written chapter indeed! I love it. > If Snape *does* know who MWPP are 1) why call Lupin? The second Snape > sees their names appear under the very specific insults directed his > way, it would be obvious (if he knew who they were) that the > parchment (he doesn't yet know it's a map) is some artifact left over > from their time at Hogwarts. Why call Remus? Because he doesn't know. And even if he suspects in the way that only Snape can, he wouldn't be completely sure about it. I reckon he remember and recognise the insults very well from his childhood, he got his mind set on something but calls for Remus anyhow, to question him. > > 2) > So Snape is either asking Lupin, "Did Harry somehow get this map from > his dead father?" or "Did you, a person I already suspect as aiding > and abetting Sirius Black, give this map to Harry?" The former is > nearly impossible, given Harry's complete ignorance of his father pre- > Hogwarts and his 11-year imprisonment at the Dursley's, which Snape > presumably knows about. So, by process of elimination, is Snape > really asking Lupin, "did you give this to Harry?" I believe he is asking that. Beacuse Snape, at this point, wants to get every suspicion he ever had about Remus to be true and get him fired. Besides, if we are focusing on the nicer version of Severus Snape, he would be concerned about Sirius Black and the fact that he has something to do with it. Call me soft, but I think Snape is doing his job, which is to protect Harry from Black, and he believe that Remus Lupin still has something to do with Sirius and therefore also is dangerous to trust. > > But if that is what Snape's asking--if he knows who MWPP are in other > words--it seems completely out of character (and also irresponsible > as a teacher and official Hogwarts gadfly) that Snape would let the > momentary noise of Ron bursting in and the extremely mild blustering > of Lupin distract him enough to let them all leave his office scott- > free and with the map in tow. I know. But he might have felt that the discussion could countinue more privatly. We still don't know anything about the teacher's POV in this story and it freaks me out at times like this. Who gives a knut about Harry? *grins evily* Or, believing in the vamp-Snape, (oh, doesn't that sounds *gasp* intriguing?), Remus might have said something (which of course would be the vampire essay) that ended all conversation for the moment being. Sorry, but it's the most likely thing if we're not going to assume too much out of the canon... > > If you remove that one sentence ("directly from the manufactuers") > from the chapter, everything else Snape says and does before and > after (even the shrieking shack scenes later on) seems to indicate > that he of course knows who James etc. were but *doesn't* know them > by their nicknames, Moony Wormtail Padfoot and Prongs. In which case, > what the heck *did* Snape mean with his "manufacturers" line? Would also like to know that... > ~Rosmerta > who's been waiting for this chapter to come up so she could ask this > question--can you tell? Lilith who's also been waiting but still haven't got much to say, unfortunately! From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Mon Jun 11 18:02:44 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:02:44 -0000 Subject: Cultural values and beauty In-Reply-To: <009901c0f29a$d7009980$b80ceda9@littlealex> Message-ID: <9g3144+oi1i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20560 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Hello, > > > [snip about cultural differences] > > Hey, I *completely* agree! > > > On my own part, I'm sure that parents' reactions to having a different, > "magical" child would be very closely related to their cultural values. And > what about religion? Imagine a fundamentalist Christian family who believe > that magic is evil discovering that Junior is a wizard! > > Do fundamentalist Christians exist in Britain? I was hoping that the > species doesn't spread that far. Ick. I was thinking, though, how Cho's > parents would have acted when they first discovered, assuming, of course, > that they aren't completely British-ized. > LOL, that reminded me of a British Soap Opera they show in my part of the US, "EastEnders". One of the characters (from a non-religious family) became a Christian and her family was appalled. One memborable ramble from her father was that he did the best he could raising her and he can't figure out where he went wrong. It was reminiscent of Petunia's lament in PS/SS about Harry being one of them. > > Returning to HP, from the books and interviews with JKR, I'd say Ron and > Hermione is a foregone conclusion. > > Yay! I support that ship (which is strange, 'cause I've been advocating for > Ron/Draco in my hpslash group...). > > > Maybe as she grows up she'll develop a bit more gumption and make more of > an impression on him. > > I hope so, the poor kid. > In the next book, Hermione will be 15 years old. It's quite possible over the summer holiday Hermione might begin paying more attention to her physical appearance by wearing make-up and fixing up her hair. I think it will be interesting to learn whether or not she visited Krum over the summer holiday. Milz From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 18:43:36 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 Summary) In-Reply-To: <9g2jmg+10vfk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010611184336.62042.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20562 > I just don't see Snape running to Dumbledore to constantly *rat*. > He does, though, express his opinions and concerns. I think by > this time he has figured out Dumbledore isn't going to listen to > anything > he has to say about Lupin. I also don't think he questioned Lupin > about it later. Snape just decided to take care of the matter in > his way in his own time. I think that the most frustrating thing in the world to Snape is the way that certain people can keep breaking rules that everyone is supposed to follow and yet not only avoid punishment but somehow be rewarded or praised for it. People like James and Sirius when they were all students together or Harry and Ron and Hermione in the present day. Drives him right up a wall. Makes no sense to him at all. "Special circumstances" mean absolutely nothing to him; rules are rules and that's that. It's why he is so jubilant in CoS when H & R arrive in the car; he's so sure that this time it's impossible for justice not to be done. All of which is a long prelude to my real points: to Snape, going to Dumbledore would not be "ratting", it would be bringing a malefactor to justice. For this reason he wouldn't think of dealing with something himself because that's what the authorities are there for. (Any urge he might have to deal with things on his own probably did not survive the Quirrell episode in SS/PS.) That's why losing the Order of Merlin in PoS hurt so bad: after a lifetime of watching charming rule-breakers avoid the consquences of their actions, someone who abided by the strict letter of the rule and who truly deserved a little recognition (ie, himself) was finally going to be honoured. Dumbledore must have had a heck of a summer calming him down in time for the start of the GoF school year. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 18:49:18 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:49:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore doesn't like snape Message-ID: <9g33re+qcqq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20563 Dumbledore just doesn't like snape so why does he keep him on and does anyone think he will get rid of him or that snape will ever get the defence against the dark arts job From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 18:52:19 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:52:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction Message-ID: <9g3413+c789@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20564 Hi again! Sorry, but what I meant to say was that my friend needs proof INCLUDING THE SOURCE, not just a website, that Harry's birthday is July 31 (she thinks it is July 10). Multiple examples of evidence throughout the Canon and FROM THE CANON ITSELF would be most helpful. I'm trying to look for things myself! Any help out there? Sorry about the typos in my previous message-if that message is still listed. THANKS A BUNCH! From margdean at erols.com Mon Jun 11 18:21:33 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:21:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore doesn't like snape? References: <9g33re+qcqq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B250C2D.134444A5@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20565 rowanbrookt at yahoo.com wrote: > > Dumbledore just doesn't like snape so why does he keep him on and does > anyone think he will get rid of him or that snape will ever get the > defence against the dark arts job What makes you think that Dumbledore doesn't like Snape? Though "like" isn't quite the word. Snape obviously feels ties of loyalty toward Dumbledore, in response, I think, to Dumbledore's gift of (qualified) trust in him. So no, I don't think Dumbledore will "get rid of" Snape intentionally. He might, of course, lose him one way or another, which I think would grieve him very much. --Margaret Dean From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 19:46:39 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore doesn't like snape In-Reply-To: <9g33re+qcqq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010611194639.93093.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20566 --- rowanbrookt at yahoo.com wrote: > Dumbledore just doesn't like snape so why does he keep him on and > does anyone think he will get rid of him or that snape will ever > get the defence against the dark arts job > Is there anyone on the planet who "likes" Snape? (I think there will be but she hasn't arrived in the plot yet.) I believe it would be more accurate to say that Dumbledore sees behind the facade Snape has erected to keep the world at bay and discerns a desperately lonely man who has much to offer the world and who needs to belong so that he doesn't make mistakes - again. If Dumbledore doesn't give Snape the DADA job (assuming he really wants it), then it's ultimately for Snape's own good. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 19:58:56 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:58:56 -0000 Subject: FF whitewashing - HG's race - Cho - Glasses - That Dratted Map Message-ID: <9g37u0+tqso@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20567 Ebony wrote: >What annoys me are several fanfics that I have read in which the author has >decided to make Angelina white on purpose, saying, "I always saw her as >being white in my head... I identify with Angelina a lot, so I'm making her >white." (I am not making this up--this was found in an actual author's note >on ff.net.) I've also seen Parvati, Dean, and others similarily >whitewashed. Yeesh, that is really offensive. >Maybe I'm weird, but I don't have to *look* like a character in order to >identify with them. You're not weird, just (a) more imaginative and (b) better trained. I think blacks get a lot more practice in identifying with whites than vice versa; women get more practice identifying with male characters than vice versa; GLBT folks have more practice in identifying with hetero characters than vice versa. It's part of being a member of the more invisible class. (This is the US. Other cultures' mileage will vary.) Catlady wrote: >In the first three books, I thought Hermione was a light-colored 'black' >whose parents or grandparents had come to Britain from the Caribbean. What happened in GF to make you change your mind? I don't recall any clues about Hermione's race, except that she blushes so her skin can't be too dark. Her hair and eyes are brown, her hair is bushy--she could easily be biracial. Dave wrote: >I think the "Evil Cho" perception comes from our (misdirected) love >for Harry, like a mother who assumes that any girl who has the >effrontery not to be in love with her boy *must* be a slut. For all we know, she =is= in love with him. Does anyone really think she would have said no if he'd asked her before Cedric did? The poor idiot put it off too long. Of course, she could have asked him. "Evil Cho" probably comes from a mix of protective-Mom and the competitive aspect--if you're in love with Harry, you prefer to think Cho is a slime. (This doesn't seem to be applied to Hermione, though--yet. If Harry falls for her, she can expect curses via owl from frustrated fanfic writers.) Devika wrote: >Sorry if I'm missing something, but what was the original argument about >glasses? It's two observations in one: (1) wizards either don't know how to, or don't care to, cure near/farsightedness--some of the most powerful wizards we encounter wear them (Dumbledore, McGonagall, James)--and (2) all the characters who wear glasses (unless I've forgotten someone) are Gryffindors. So is there some significance to glasses? Or does JKR just like 'em? Pippin wrote: >When Snape finds the parchment on Harry, he suspects that Sirius >has given Harry the parchment in hopes of luring him out of bounds. and Magda wrote: >He's got what he wants: Harry has a map once owned by James and gang; >Lupin is the only gang member on the premises; >Harry now has the map; ergo Lupin gave it to him; the map allows >Harry to get out of Hogwarts without being detected; therefore the >map is a Bad Thing that undercuts the efforts of everyone and their >pet rabbit to protect Harry. Both of these theories appeal to me, but depend upon Snape's knowing that it's a map. Do you think he does? How? Magda wrote : > All of which is a long prelude to my real points: to Snape, going to > Dumbledore would not be "ratting", it would be bringing a malefactor > to justice. I agree. So why, in your view, =doesn't= he go to Dumbledore? Amy Z -------------------------------------------------------- "Ha, ha, ha," said Hermione sarcastically. "Goblins don't need protection. Haven't you been listening to what Professor Binns has been telling us about goblin rebellions?" "No," said Harry and Ron together. -HP and the Goblet of Fire -------------------------------------------------------- From lemina007 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 05:30:53 2001 From: lemina007 at hotmail.com (Lemina O.) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:30:53 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody References: <9g1j74+ap7i@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20568 I'm new to this list, so I don't know if anyone pointed this out yet.....and I actually wasn't becuase it seemed a little wierd...however, I thought it would be interesting anyway. And just to get the record straight, I'm not wierd myself, I was just bored and reading the books for the zillionth time. Anyway, I was reading GOF, and the part about the Yule Ball, when I noticed something while they were all dancing. Harry and Mood met on the dance floor, and Moody said to him, "Nice socks," and it hit me after a few times and I said to myself, "Hey! he can see through they're clothes too! Run for it!" Exactly what can that magical eye of his see? Lemina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 11 20:03:58 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:03:58 -0000 Subject: Ugly Slytherins? DM specifically In-Reply-To: <006401c0f184$8df51480$bf3570c2@c5s910j> Message-ID: <9g387e+tosn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20569 Neil wrote: >Assuming Harry's POV, I'm fairly sure that a boy of 10 or 11 would not >describe another boy as "remarkably good looking," even inside his own head, >and is much more likely to make a cursory assessment of looks. I thought of that, but then in my experience boys of 14 won't describe other boys as "remarkably good looking" either (at least, they won't admit it) and yet that's what the narration gives us in GF. I dunno. I defer to your judgment since you were once an 11-year-old boy (I won't ask how long ago) and that's one experience I've never had. Anyway, my point is I didn't think we could conclude from the narration whether Draco was particularly unattractive OR attractive at 11/12/13/14. We can but fantasize. I, for one, have no particular opinion of his looks except to be quite certain he doesn't have eyes the size of platters. ::Sigh:: I look forward to the anime craze dying down (she says, donning her asbestos union suit). Amy ------------------------------------------------------ "Hagrid, look what I've got for relatives!" Harry said furiously. "Look at the Dursleys!" "Excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore. -HP and the Goblet of Fire ------------------------------------------------------ From vderark at bccs.org Mon Jun 11 20:31:59 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:31:59 -0000 Subject: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction In-Reply-To: <9g3413+c789@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g39rv+4kpe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20570 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rodeodangerqueen at y... wrote: > Hi again! > > Sorry, but what I meant to say was that my friend needs proof > INCLUDING THE SOURCE, not just a website, that Harry's birthday is > July 31 (she thinks it is July 10 Here it is, from PS/SS chap 8: "GRINGOTTS BREAK-IN LATEST "Investigations continue into the break-in at Gringotts on 31 July, widely believed to be the work of Dark wizards or witches unknown. "Gringotts goblins today insisted that nothing had been taken. The vault that was searched had in fact been emptied the same day. "'But we're not telling you what was in there, so keep your noses out if you know what's good for you,' said a Gringotts spokesgoblin this afternoon. "Harry remembered Ron telling him on the train that someone had tried to rob Gringotts, but Ron hadn't mentioned the date. "'Hagrid!' said Harry, 'that Gringotts break-in happened on my birthday! It might've been happening while we were there!'" And which website was offered as proof? Just curious... Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 11 21:00:04 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:00:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore doesn't like snape In-Reply-To: <20010611194639.93093.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g3bgk+v8nc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20571 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich wrote: > > --- rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > > Dumbledore just doesn't like snape so why does he keep him on and > > does anyone think he will get rid of him or that snape will ever > > get the defence against the dark arts job > > > > Is there anyone on the planet who "likes" Snape? (I think there will > be but she hasn't arrived in the plot yet.) > > I believe it would be more accurate to say that Dumbledore sees > behind the facade Snape has erected to keep the world at bay and > discerns a desperately lonely man who has much to offer the world and > who needs to belong so that he doesn't make mistakes - again. > > If Dumbledore doesn't give Snape the DADA job (assuming he really > wants it), then it's ultimately for Snape's own good. Well, I'm not going as far as to say that Dumbledore *likes* Snape, but he, more than anyone, treats Snape with respect. I think he obviously knows more about Snape than anyone - knows his good points, his bad points - and it seems clear that Snape actually did do something to earn Dumbledore's respect and loyalty. Therefore, Dumbledore lives with Snape's excentricities, in the same way he is supportive of Hagrid's wilder indulgencies, and also, in the same way he allows Professor Binns to carry on teaching at the school. Dumbledore has always struck me as being a very tolerant person - he is surrounded by annoying people/beings, and doesn't try to get rid of them (Peeves being the obvious example). The DADA job. I have never figured out why exactly Snape wants this job. He is described as being very skilled at potions, and makes it clear in the trio's first lesson, when he waxes poetical about the beauty of the simmering cauldron, that he loves it. He is the best man for the job. So why does he want to teach DADA? The only thing I have been able to come up with that, as an ex-Death Eater, he thinks it is his duty to educate the Hogwarts students about the Dark Arts - in order to prepare them for the future. Does this make sense? Or perhaps he wants to atone? Catherine From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 11 21:11:51 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:11:51 -0000 Subject: That Dratted Map In-Reply-To: <9g37u0+tqso@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g3c6n+9mt6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20572 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > > Pippin wrote: > > >When Snape finds the parchment on Harry, he suspects that Sirius > >has given Harry the parchment in hopes of luring him out of bounds. snip Magda's equally intriguing theory > > Both of these theories appeal to me, but depend upon Snape's knowing > that it's a map. Do you think he does? How? Actually, I don't think that Snape knew it was a map, but I do think it's possible that the square, creased parchment itself rang a bell. I get the impression that ordinary classwork is done on rectangular parchment which is rolled into scrolls, not folded. Suppose Snape got a glimpse of James &Co consulting a square parchment, wand in hand, more than once during his school days. He never found out just what it was, but he knew it was important and had something to do with their exploits. Now it turns up again, he remembers the parchment square that MWPP had, and when it insults him in all too familiar terms (good point Rita!), that's the clincher for him and he pages Lupin. Pippin From winsome at peoplepc.com Mon Jun 11 19:12:39 2001 From: winsome at peoplepc.com (Shannon Heisey) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:12:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Spells & Charms; the nature of magic References: Message-ID: <002101c0f2d3$4de74fc0$2b42f9ce@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 20573 I beg to differ about there being no equivalent of animagi outside the Harry Potter universe. It's something you don't see a lot at all, but I did see it in the Belgariaed, a series of books by David Eddings. Belgarath the sorcerer could change himself into a wolf, and his daughter Polgara could change herself into an owl. Magic involved force of will more than wands, and a major exertion of a sorcerer's will could leave him or her exhauster. I also thought it was interesting that there was a distinction made between sorcerers and witches and wizards. Witches and wizards used potions and things of that nature while sorcerers used their wills and maybe a word or gesture to perform magic. The series is definitely not as good as the Harry Potter serier, but it is still a satisfactory read. Shannon, From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 11 21:25:31 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:25:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore doesn't like snape In-Reply-To: <9g3bgk+v8nc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g3d0b+j27e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20574 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > > The DADA job. I have never figured out why exactly Snape wants this > job.> Now, I know quite a few others have written what I am about to write, and I won't take credit for it (but I did think it myself), but here goes... Snape never once said he wants the DADA position. It is rumor that only the students pass around. I am not so sure, actually, that Snape wants that job at all. I feel that he might even be a bit uncomfortable teaching students what he used to do as a DE - he's not the type to share his experiences. He also seems to love his Potions position - remember his little introductory speech about potions in SS? I do! --jenny from ravenclaw (who has less than 3 weeks until her summer vacation!)**************************************************** From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 11 21:52:00 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:52:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c0f2c0$bde94d40$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 20575 >Harry and Mood met on the dance floor, and Moody said to him, "Nice socks," and it hit me after a few times and I said to myself, "Hey! he can see through they're clothes too! Run for it!" Exactly what can that magical eye of >his see? Well, put it this way, you can see why Parvati's next line is "that eye's creepy - it shouldn't be allowed". Susan From randomnana at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 22:04:20 2001 From: randomnana at yahoo.com (randomnana at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:04:20 -0000 Subject: Fawkes Message-ID: <9g3f94+ak7f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20576 If someone has already made this post, please forgive me! I was rereading (for about the 8400th time!) the final chapters of GoF last night when I noticed that JKR describes Fawkes as a beatiful scarlet and gold bird. Interesting that these are the colors of Gryffindor!! I was also reading the archive of a chat that JKR gave on 10/16/00 where she described Bonfire night as a night (Nov. 5) where they burn a man named Guy Fawkes in effigy because he was the ringleader in a plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament. I thought this was interesting, because JKR specifically noted that there was a HP connection. Perhaps I am reading into things too much, but I thought I might see if anyone else had any ideas on this! Thanks-I enjoy reading everyone's posts. Nana From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 22:10:17 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:10:17 -0000 Subject: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction In-Reply-To: <9g39rv+4kpe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g3fk9+8rm4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20577 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > Here it is, from PS/SS chap 8: > > "GRINGOTTS BREAK-IN LATEST > > "Investigations continue into the break-in at Gringotts on 31 > July, widely believed to be the work of Dark wizards or > witches unknown. > > "Gringotts goblins today insisted that nothing had been taken. > The vault that was searched had in fact been emptied the > same day. > > "'But we're not telling you what was in there, so keep your > noses out if you know what's good for you,' said a Gringotts > spokesgoblin this afternoon. > > "Harry remembered Ron telling him on the train that someone > had tried to rob Gringotts, but Ron hadn't mentioned the date. > > "'Hagrid!' said Harry, 'that Gringotts break-in happened on > my birthday! It might've been happening while we were there!'" > > And which website was offered as proof? Just curious... > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon Steve, I tried to offer YOUR website as proof without looking at it very closely (it was VERY late, I was tired, I just wanted to hit the sack). So I wrote my little note today hoping that someone knew the answer offhand (not surprised it was you and thank you for taking time from your busy schedule to answer what may seem trivial), and I just relied on flipping through SS hoping to find the right answer outright without the use of the internet. Anyhow, I have now investigated your site in more detail since the moment I received your note, but I'm glad you pointed the information out in this manner although it IS also on your site! So July 31st makes Harry an outright Leo (the Lion-how coincidental?) according to astrology. Hmmmm...maybe there's more discussion (argumentative) material here...as if there isn't enough already. ;) Natasha From vderark at bccs.org Mon Jun 11 22:48:55 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:48:55 -0000 Subject: Fawkes In-Reply-To: <9g3f94+ak7f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g3hsn+prd4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20578 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., randomnana at y... wrote: > If someone has already made this post, please forgive me! > I was rereading (for about the 8400th time!) the final chapters of > GoF last night when I noticed that JKR describes Fawkes as a beatiful > scarlet and gold bird. Interesting that these are the colors of > Gryffindor!! One more link between Dumbledore and Gryffindor, by the way. And I know I've mentioned it before, but it's also worth noting that when Harry first waves what will become his wand in Olivanders, red and gold sparks come out. Gringotts goblins also wear uniforms of scarlet and gold, although I can't imagine what connection that could be. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jun 11 22:50:59 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:50:59 -0000 Subject: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic In-Reply-To: <002101c0f2d3$4de74fc0$2b42f9ce@computer> Message-ID: <9g3i0j+76jd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20579 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Shannon Heisey" wrote: > I beg to differ about there being no equivalent of animagi outside the Harry > Potter universe. Don't forget the Animorphs series of YA books by A.K. Applegate. The animorphs are teenagers who can transform into various animals and I thought of them immediately when I encountered the word 'animagus'. The animorphs keep their human minds, but also have the emotions and desires of the creatures that they become. Pippin From linman6868 at aol.com Mon Jun 11 23:47:52 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:47:52 -0000 Subject: DM specifically In-Reply-To: <9g387e+tosn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g3lb8+ofjr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20580 Amy Z[apper, bugs, for the elimination of] wrote, quoting Neil: > >Assuming Harry's POV, I'm fairly sure that a boy of 10 or 11 would > not > >describe another boy as "remarkably good looking," even inside his > own head, > >and is much more likely to make a cursory assessment of looks. > > I thought of that, but then in my experience boys of 14 won't describe > other boys as "remarkably good looking" either (at least, they won't > admit it) and yet that's what the narration gives us in GF. I dunno. > > Anyway, my point is I didn't think we could conclude from the > narration whether Draco was particularly unattractive OR attractive at > 11/12/13/14 Actually, this ties together a few recent threads in my mind concerning Draco Malfoy, Snape-as-vampire, ugly Slytherins and JKR's nifty little surprises. I've noticed that whenever JKR includes description of Malfoy in his various dealings with Harry, Mad-Eye Moody, and his father, etc., "paleness" is the defining characteristic. (I could go all Richard Dyer on you, but I won't.) JKR takes care to mention that he doesn't "go red" when angry or embarrassed, but turns a very delicate shade of pink. His hair is fair to white. (Perhaps this heightens his vicarish look when wearing dress robes.) I hazard a guess as to why JKR goes out of her way to emphasize Draco's (and Lucius's, IIRC) paleness. ::getting out her ACME asbestos cloak -- thanks, Wile E.:: Which is that if anyone's got vampire heritage in HP, the Malfoys do. Mind you, my knowledge of vampires is limited to mainstream culture and Annette Curtis Klause's THE SILVER KISS -- but it's the latter that made me think of it. The child-villain in that book, one Christopher, is thought to be "albino" by the adoption agencies that farm him out century after century -- they issue warnings to adoptive parents that his pale skin won't take the sun. He has fair-to-white hair and possesses an unusual amount of childlike charm, which is how he gets his victims. Now, Draco doesn't appear to have superhuman strength, nor has JKR mentioned him getting a bad sunburn in CoMC, nor does he seem to be out of kilter with normal wizard growth and development, nor does he carry around his native soil in the hem of his cloak (that we know). But every time JKR mentions Draco as pale I always think, gee, that sounds like Christopher. If Draco's looks aren't an indicator of vampirism Rowling-style, then I'm not sure what these little descriptor tags are for -- but they seem a little more pointed than the usual "Crabbe and Goyle chuckled trollishly" or "Percy had already changed into his billowing black Hogwarts robes". (Maybe *Percy* is a vampire -- clerihew, Amy? [JUST KIDDING. I have no desire to incur the wrath of Percy Lovers Unite!]) Draco's descriptors seem much more like the ones for Mad-Eye Moody, the ones that we interpret one way when we think he's Moody and another way when we've found out he's Barty Crouch, Jr. Hmmm.... Lisa I. _____ Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future. --Oscar Wilde From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 00:18:00 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:18:00 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore doesn't like snape In-Reply-To: <9g33re+qcqq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g3n3o+kbc4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20581 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > Dumbledore just doesn't like snape so why does he keep him on and does > anyone think he will get rid of him or that snape will ever get the > defence against the dark arts job I would go further than other people and say that Dumbledore *likes* him a lot and that there's a genuine friendship between the two. I think the dynamics between D and Snape is very interesting and complex. Of course, it depends on your definition of 'like'. D hasn't got rid of Snape even though he could have at the end of PoA, so I take it that he would be here to stay, unless one of them dies. I have the impression that Dumbledore is bemused by Snape's obsession like Hagrid's obsession with monsters. (I wonder whether Hagrid ever asked to 'study' Lupin after he got over the initial shock. No wonder Lupin is in a hurry to leave ... (j/k). As for the DADA job, check the old posts. From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jun 12 00:32:12 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:32:12 -0000 Subject: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 Summary) In-Reply-To: <9g1iep+7seu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g3nud+dobr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20582 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" wrote: > > > If you remove that one sentence ("directly from the manufactuers") > > from the chapter, everything else Snape says and does before and > > after (even the shrieking shack scenes later on) seems to indicate > > that he of course knows who James etc. were but *doesn't* know them > > by their nicknames, Moony Wormtail Padfoot and Prongs. In which case, > > what the heck *did* Snape mean with his "manufacturers" line? > > > > Suppose that Snape recognizes the *parchment*, not the knicknames, > from his school days. He doesn't know that Filch confiscated it. He > doesn't know it's a map, but has always suspected it has something to > do with the way the Marauders were able to slip in and out of the > grounds. > When Snape finds the parchment on Harry, he suspects that Sirius > has given Harry the parchment in hopes of luring him out of bounds. He > calls Lupin, probably expecting that Lupin will identify the parchment > and that it came from Sirius. Lupin, who knows that Filch had the map, > pretends not to recognize it, thus arousing Snape's suspicions that > Lupin and Sirius are in league. At that point, Snape lets loose with > his "from the manufacturers" line, meaning Sirius and Lupin. But since > Snape doesn't know who MWPP are, and Harry obviously doesn't either, > Snape hasn't got anything concrete, so he has to let Harry go. > I expect Snape doesn't reveal that he's seen the parchment in the > past because he too was out of bounds or spying at the time. > Pippin I've always thought that Snape knew who MWPP were from his Hogwarts days, assuming he probably heard them refer to each other by these names. He obviously didn't know about the Animagi transformation, as he is surprised when he sees Sirius transform from his dog state in the hospital scene towards the end of GoF. Plus, I'm sure that the insults the map displays towards Snape contain words he has heard before from the Foursome. I think that in this scene Snape was hoping that Lupin would be surprised to see the map, and perhaps let something slip that Snape could take to Dumbledore as proof that Lupin was indeed helping Black get into the castle. Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jun 12 00:52:19 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:52:19 -0000 Subject: Time-Warner article -- TWO Dark Lords?? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010610181839.00c1ca50@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9g3p43+4svp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20583 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: snip Or did the author simply > not read the books, but did hear something about that dastardly > duo of dark lords, Volde and Mort? > > Sounds like a vaudeville team... Well, since the movie studios create non-existent film reviewers to provide their films with positive blurbs, perhaps their other marketing efforts are also subject to the same degree of fiction. Marianne From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 12 01:04:42 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 01:04:42 -0000 Subject: Nail Out All Those Letters (filk) Message-ID: <9g3pra+v1cu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20584 Nail Out All Those Letters (from SS/PS, Chap. 3) (To the tune of I'm Gonna Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter) Dedicated to Chris Dosset THE SCENE: 4 Privet Drive. Enter VERNON DURSELY, with a toolbox. VERNON I'm gonna get right down and nail out all those letters They're make-believe, tell my nephew. To stop messages from owls I'll use fair means or use foul I won't be havin' that boy wishin' He was a magician I'm gonna sleep (I hope) all night behind my doorway To seize each missive that comes through Because it's going to be an awfully poor day If Harry joins that wizard crew I'm gonna drive all night and then I'll rent a rowboat And hide out on an island grim And I will not allow Harry the chance to cast a "no" vote I'll be making it a rule He won't go to that Hog school I am only doing this for him! - CMC From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com Tue Jun 12 01:34:10 2001 From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 01:34:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore doesn't like snape In-Reply-To: <9g3bgk+v8nc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g3rii+u9b9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20585 Catherine wrote: > Well, I'm not going as far as to say that Dumbledore *likes* Snape, > but he, more than anyone, treats Snape with respect. I'm going to go with MMM on this one, and go so far as to say that yes, Dumbledore does actually like Snape. And Snape likes Dumbledore as well. > I think he obviously knows more about Snape than anyone - knows his > good points, > his bad points - and it seems clear that Snape actually did do > something to earn Dumbledore's respect and loyalty. Therefore, > Dumbledore lives with Snape's excentricities, I think Dumbledore, thanks to the Snape/MWPP rivalry, probably saw a good bit of Snape in his office during Snape's years at Hogwarts. I think that Snape, when he turned from the DEs, went to Dumbledore first. I believe that Dumbledore is quite perceptive about Snape; he does know things that others do not, and I think he kind of regards him as a sort of prodigal son. I think they share a trust and an odd friendship that we are readers from Harry's POV are really rather unaware of. > The DADA job. I have never figured out why exactly Snape wants > this job. He is described as being very skilled at potions, and > makes it > clear in the trio's first lesson, when he waxes poetical about the > beauty of the simmering cauldron, that he loves it. He is the best > man for the job. So why does he want to teach DADA? The DADA stuff is only rumors, and I suspect they are rumors encouraged by Dumbledore and Snape. If it seems to everyone that Snape really *does* want the job and that Dumbledore doesn't trust him with it (although this is false), then he appears by all accounts to still be interested in and faithful to the Dark Arts. It's part of the bluff. Lyda From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 01:37:46 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore doesn't like snape In-Reply-To: <20010611194639.93093.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010612013746.90922.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20586 Dumbledore just doesn't like snape so why does he keep him on and > does anyone think he will get rid of him or that snape will ever > get the defence against the dark arts job I Think Dumbledore really does like Snape. I think that he has a great respect for that man. To turn away from all your friends (deatheaters, which one would argue are not friends at all..but it's like a place where you belong and you are respected) to teach at a school where you are dispised by many of the students. I do realize that Snape brings this on himself..but the guy has some serious psychological problems if you ask me. I think there is something much deeper, he is a bitter, lonely and a sad man. Dumbledore sees that and wishes to help him, although, I think many people would object to a former deatheater teaching DADA *even if that makes a lot of sense, many people don't want to stop believing that the person is in fact reformed* Dumbledore obviously respects Snape very much. He also trusts him. Deep down I think Harry, Ron and Hermione trust him too..or they are beginning to. Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From litalex at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 01:48:32 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:48:32 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cultural values and beauty References: <9g3144+oi1i@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <001401c0f2e1$ca411480$8b10eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20587 Hello, > In the next book, Hermione will be 15 years old. It's quite possible > over the summer holiday Hermione might begin paying more attention to > her physical appearance by wearing make-up and fixing up her hair. Actually, I was referring to Ginny . But I don't know, I'd rather Hermione stay the same. I mean, we have enough geeky girl Cinderella stories, if you ask me. > I think it will be interesting to learn whether or not she visited > Krum over the summer holiday. I'm rather hoping that she did. Would be very sweet and can't you just imagine how Ron would feel? little Alex From litalex at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 01:51:02 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:51:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore doesn't like snape References: <20010611194639.93093.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001a01c0f2e2$2376e8e0$8b10eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20588 Hello, > I believe it would be more accurate to say that Dumbledore sees > behind the facade Snape has erected to keep the world at bay and > discerns a desperately lonely man who has much to offer the world and > who needs to belong so that he doesn't make mistakes - again. Which seems to be the basis of many Snape/Dumbledore stories. Sigh, sometimes my fellow slashers really boggle my mind. But whoever said that Snape might not want the DADA job, I agree. I think Snape actually enjoys teaching Potions, especially since he seems to excel in it. Not teaching it, but working with Potions, I mean . little Alex From joym999 at aol.com Tue Jun 12 01:43:58 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 01:43:58 -0000 Subject: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic In-Reply-To: <9g3i0j+76jd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g3s4u+5ob9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20589 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Shannon Heisey" wrote: > > I beg to differ about there being no equivalent of animagi outside the Harry > > Potter universe. > > Don't forget the Animorphs series of YA books by A.K. Applegate. > The animorphs are teenagers who can transform into various animals and > I thought of them immediately when I encountered the word 'animagus'. > The animorphs keep their human minds, but also have the emotions and > desires of the creatures that they become. > Also, in the Wizard of Earthsea trilogy by Ursula K. LeGuin, wizards can change into animals. (At one point Ged turns into a bird, and stays in that form for so long that he can not change back by himself.) These books have some (vague) similarities to HP, although they are fairly gloomy and do not have the humor that the HP books do. But there is a Wizards School on the Isle of Roke which is sort of like Hogwarts. I am fairly certain that JKR has read these books. For those of you who havent, I highly recommend them, as well as anything else by LeGuin, who is a truly wonderful author. --Joywitch From devika261 at aol.com Tue Jun 12 02:06:37 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:06:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DM specifically Message-ID: <8d.7daa546.2856d32d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20590 In a message dated 6/11/01 8:15:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, linman6868 at aol.com writes: > I hazard a guess as to why JKR goes out of her > way to emphasize Draco's (and Lucius's, IIRC) paleness. ::getting > out her ACME asbestos cloak -- thanks, Wile E.:: Which is that if > anyone's got vampire heritage in HP, the Malfoys do. > Hmmm...very interesting! Maybe this could explain the strange connection between Snape and Lucius Malfoy... Devika :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 02:08:40 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DM specifically In-Reply-To: <9g3lb8+ofjr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612020840.22237.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20591 Personally it seems to me that Draco sounds like some sort of male veela...really pale, almost white hair....i think she might have used the word silver to discribe it once..Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika261 at aol.com Tue Jun 12 02:14:58 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:14:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 S... Message-ID: <105.4b0bcc7.2856d522@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20592 In a message dated 6/11/01 8:39:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Zarleycat at aol.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" wrote: > > > > > If you remove that one sentence ("directly from the > manufactuers") > > > from the chapter, everything else Snape says and does before and > > > after (even the shrieking shack scenes later on) seems to > indicate > > > that he of course knows who James etc. were but *doesn't* know > them > > > by their nicknames, Moony Wormtail Padfoot and Prongs. In which > case, > > > what the heck *did* Snape mean with his "manufacturers" line? > > > > > > > Suppose that Snape recognizes the *parchment*, not the > knicknames, > > from his school days. He doesn't know that Filch confiscated it. He > > doesn't know it's a map, but has always suspected it has something > to > > do with the way the Marauders were able to slip in and out of the > > grounds. > > When Snape finds the parchment on Harry, he suspects that > Sirius > > has given Harry the parchment in hopes of luring him out of bounds. > He > > calls Lupin, probably expecting that Lupin will identify the > parchment > > and that it came from Sirius. Lupin, who knows that Filch had the > map, > > pretends not to recognize it, thus arousing Snape's suspicions that > > Lupin and Sirius are in league. At that point, Snape lets loose > with > > his "from the manufacturers" line, meaning Sirius and Lupin. But > since > > Snape doesn't know who MWPP are, and Harry obviously doesn't > either, > > Snape hasn't got anything concrete, so he has to let Harry go. > > I expect Snape doesn't reveal that he's seen the parchment in > the > > past because he too was out of bounds or spying at the time. > > Pippin > > I've always thought that Snape knew who MWPP were from his Hogwarts > days, assuming he probably heard them refer to each other by these > names. He obviously didn't know about the Animagi transformation, as > he is surprised when he sees Sirius transform from his dog state in > the hospital scene towards the end of GoF. Plus, I'm sure that the > insults the map displays towards Snape contain words he has heard > before from the Foursome. I think that in this scene Snape was > hoping that Lupin would be surprised to see the map, and perhaps let > something slip that Snape could take to Dumbledore as proof that > Lupin was indeed helping Black get into the castle. > I agree with all of this, and I have my own 2 knuts to add. In GoF in The Egg and the Eye, Harry has his late-night encounter with Moody, Filch, and a very angry Snape. Snape, being Snape, is able to figure out from the egg and the Map that Harry is indeed present and wearing his invisibility cloak. I went back and re-read this part to see if Snape identifies the Marauder's Map as a map, but he does not. He refers to it simply as a piece of parchment. I think this is further proof that Snape does not know, and did not know in PoA, what the Map actually was. BTW, Snape's Grudge is definitely one of my all-time favorite chapters. It's right up there with The Unexpected Task. :) Devika *Redwood, phoenix feather, 8 3/4 inches* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 03:21:51 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Spape and the DADA job In-Reply-To: <9g3rii+u9b9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612032151.57826.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20593 --- Lyda Clunas wrote: > Catherine wrote: > > > The DADA job. I have never figured out why > exactly Snape wants > > this job. He is described as being very skilled > at potions, and > > makes it > > clear in the trio's first lesson, when he waxes > poetical about the > > beauty of the simmering cauldron, that he loves > it. He is the best > > man for the job. So why does he want to teach > DADA? > > The DADA stuff is only rumors, and I suspect they > are rumors > encouraged by Dumbledore and Snape. If it seems to > everyone that > Snape really *does* want the job and that Dumbledore > doesn't trust > him with it (although this is false), then he > appears by all accounts > to still be interested in and faithful to the Dark > Arts. It's part of > the bluff. > > Lyda > > That's about the most plausble reason I've heard yet for Snape's want for that position. It also makes the most sense too. I'm hoping that maybe we will get some more hints about that in OoP. Danette (Hoping that this isn't another red herring) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 03:34:14 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction In-Reply-To: <9g3fk9+8rm4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612033414.60657.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20594 --- rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com wrote: > So July 31st makes Harry an outright Leo (the > Lion-how coincidental?) > according to astrology. Hmmmm...maybe there's more > discussion > (argumentative) material here...as if there isn't > enough already. ;) > > Natasha > Well if someone could get me his birthplace I could do up a natal chart. :) Then we could compare it to how Rowlings is writing him. Now there's a discussion to last a while. :D Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 12 03:38:49 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 03:38:49 -0000 Subject: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 S... In-Reply-To: <105.4b0bcc7.2856d522@aol.com> Message-ID: <9g42s9+tq89@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20595 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/11/01 8:39:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > I > went back and re-read this part to see if Snape identifies the Marauder's Map > as a map, but he does not. He refers to it simply as a piece of parchment. > I think this is further proof that Snape does not know, and did not know in > PoA, what the Map actually was. > BTW, Snape's Grudge is definitely one of my all-time favorite chapters. It's > right up there with The Unexpected Task. :) Ah, but by GoF Snape *does* know about the Map, because at the end of PoA he saw it in Lupin's office and saw Lupin going out to the willow on it. And of course in GoF he must know Harry's stuck on the stair case, that's why he is able to look straight at him. Snape, like everyone else in the school, has to know where the trick steps are. Snape refers to the Map as a parchment because he doesn't want to give anything away to Moody. He knows Moody's lying about Potter not being there, which he thinks is favoritism on Moody's part, but he doesn't want to tangle with ol' Mad-Eye. Pippin From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 03:42:53 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 03:42:53 -0000 Subject: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 Summary) In-Reply-To: <20010611184336.62042.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g433t+rpqf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20596 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich wrote: > > I think that the most frustrating thing in the world to Snape is the > way that certain people can keep breaking rules that everyone is > supposed to follow and yet not only avoid punishment but somehow be > rewarded or praised for it. People like James and Sirius when they > were all students together or Harry and Ron and Hermione in the > present day. Drives him right up a wall. Makes no sense to him at > all. "Special circumstances" mean absolutely nothing to him; rules > are rules and that's that. I just had to say yes, yes, yes. It just has to drive Snape up the wall the way others break the rules and get away with it! I know it bothers me. Even my husband, a great fan of Harry and Hermione, admits they get away with too much! > > It's why he is so jubilant in CoS when H & R arrive in the car; he's > so sure that this time it's impossible for justice not to be done. Poor thing. I bet he just couldn't wait to get McGonagall and Dumbledore in his office! > > All of which is a long prelude to my real points: to Snape, going to > Dumbledore would not be "ratting", it would be bringing a malefactor > to justice. For this reason he wouldn't think of dealing with > something himself because that's what the authorities are there for. I'm not saying he would do anything legally wrong. I'm talking about how his cunning mind works. He got the opportunity to show this by *accidentally* letting it slip that Lupin was a werewolf. > That's why losing the Order of Merlin in PoS hurt so bad: after a > lifetime of watching charming rule-breakers avoid the consquences of > their actions, someone who abided by the strict letter of the rule > and who truly deserved a little recognition (ie, himself) was finally > going to be honoured. I think we believe alike when it comes to those *charming rule- breakers*. > > Dumbledore must have had a heck of a summer calming him down in time > for the start of the GoF school year. Well, as it says in GoF: Professor Snape, who seemed to have attained new levels of vindictiveness over the summer...... :-) Koinonia From joym999 at aol.com Tue Jun 12 04:04:44 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:04:44 -0000 Subject: The Contest Editor is Lonely Message-ID: <9g44cs+jouu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20597 And the reason why the contest editor is lonely is because not enough people are entering her contest! So, check out message #20409, or go to the HP4GU Contest folder in the files section and read the Contest #6 announcement. This weeks contest is a game called CATEGORIES, in which you have to find 25 words or phrases associated with HP, in five different categories and starting with 5 different letters. Note that this contest will actually run for 2 weeks, so the deadline is not until June 18. Because response has been kind of slow, I will allow more than one entry per player. You can enter up to 3 times, once for each word -- SNAPE, MAGIC, and GHOST. (Read the announcement and you will see what I mean, or email me and I will send it to you.) And please, have pity on this poor computer nerd, who is more or less permanently attached to her computer. I have no life other that thru this keyboard, so I am counting on you. (Pathetic, isnt it? Dont you feel sorry for me? Are the tears springing to your eyes yet?) So, enter the HP4GU contest today, and make this poor geek happier. --Joywitch *!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*! Comedy is when you fall into an open manhole and die; tragedy is when I cut my finger. -- Mel Brooks *!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*! From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 04:09:28 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Contest Editor is Lonely In-Reply-To: <9g44cs+jouu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612040928.75688.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20598 --- joym999 at aol.com wrote: > And the reason why the contest editor is lonely is > because not enough > people are entering her contest! So, check out > message #20409, or go > to the HP4GU Contest folder in the files section and > read the Contest > #6 announcement. I'm still working on it. I'm hampered by the fact that the only book I have to use for the contest at the moment is SS which is borrowed from the library(we just moved and all my books are packed somewhere) but I will get it to you I promise. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 05:26:57 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 05:26:57 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and Astrology Message-ID: <9g4971+jggh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20599 Let's do this! Let's do this but without the gloom and doom of a Trelawney who seems to think that the future is fixed (pardon those who are Trelawney fans--I'll contend wiith you later if that is your desire). Divination, including astrology, gives us a picture of what the future has a good chance of being...but knowledge of the possibilities of what the future can hold (through analysis of our present, past, and our general tendencies)gives us extra opportunity to either embrace that future if one desires to do such a thing, or one can subvert that future...thus "changing" it. After all, we are the masters of our fate-for the most part. But yeah, let's see if Harry has Leo tendencies or if he really doesn't fit his sign. We can take up with Hermione (a Virgo-Libra cusp I think) and Ron (Pisces) later should these discussions prove worthwhile. I would assume Harry's birthplace as Godric's Hollow. Use London...probably close enough. Shame we don't know what time he was born. Perhaps details of his birth will emerge in the remaining books, but I don't think this is a priority with JKR. N ;) From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Jun 12 07:07:33 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:07:33 -0000 Subject: Flying Message-ID: <9g4f3l+adpu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20600 There's that strange thing about flying lessons at Hogwarts: In Harry's 1st year, few weeks after school has started, the Gryffindors have their first flying lesson together with the Slytherins. After this lesson, which seems to have been inserted only for plot reasons (how else would McGonagall have discovered Harry has got a natural talent for flying?), there is no more mention whatsoever of flying lessons, other students flying (except for Quidditch training and matches)or, indeed, anybody flying. In CF, Mr. Weasley says that Apparating is quicker than going on a broomstick, even if no one has ever been mentioned using a broomstick as a means of transportation. So, I'm of the opinion that Rowling has made one of her very rare errors, in not mentioning flying lessons again (by the way, nobody would have time to do them, as time tables are already full with all the other subjects). Another word as to Apparating in the grounds of Hogwarts not being possible: In CF, Sirius black does some kind of Apparition, when his head speaks to Harry from the fireplace. I presume that the fireplace has to be connected to the Floo network in order to allow people this kind of communication, and I can't imagine that, for mere security reasons, Hogwarts fireplaces are connected- much too easy for intruders. BUT: There must be some kind of "Floo interphone" at Hogwarts, as in PA, Snape calls for Lupin in order to show him the Marauder's Map, and Lupin come swirling out of the fireplace. Any suggestions???? Susanna From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Jun 12 07:23:36 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:23:36 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Snape Message-ID: <9g4g1o+ejts@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20601 Having read some of the thoughts about those two, I hope not to be repeating what other have said, having joined this particular branch of discussion later. I don't think that Dumbledore, really likes or dislikes anybody in particular. His character (and not only that, but also his looks) strongly remind the reader (or perhaps only me???) of Old Testament God: Just, severe if necessary, and seeing through everybody, giving every "sinner" his second chance. Certainly, he does like Harry, but never treats him better than the others in an unjust way. He trusts Harry, but e.g. believes him that he has not put his name in the Goblet of fire only after having him questioned very thoroughly. Same for Snape: Dumbledore must be aware of the way Snape treats his students, and I'm quite sure he doesn't approve of it in the least. but he has this God-like view of things: He lets them happen and observes without interfering, at least he does so within Hogwarts. He certainly reacts in a very different way when it comes to real evil, which means fighting Voldemort. But inside the school which is a closed system, he acts like God, watching benevolently, certainly not liking everything that happens, but not interfering, seeing everything from a much more elevated point of view. Susanna From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 07:36:21 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:36:21 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter and Astrology In-Reply-To: <9g4971+jggh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000201c0f312$6023e560$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 20602 >I would assume Harry's birthplace as Godric's Hollow. Use >London...probably close enough. As Hermoine might have said, Astrology is a *very* imprecise subject, but there's no need to treat Geography the same way. Hagrid picked up the baby Harry from the ruins of his house in Godric's Hollow and flew him to the Dursley household which is in Surrey (precise position unclear, but probably about 25 miles SW of London would do it). Hagrid remarked that the baby Harry had fallen asleep "when they were flying over Bristol". Bristol is 120 miles due West of London. Not being an expert on babies I'm not sure how long it takes them to go back to sleep again after they've been disturbed by the murder of their parents, their house exploding around them, a wounding curse sent by an evil wizard, howls of agony from said Dark Wizard as the curse rebounds and their abduction by a gigantic stranger with a pocket full of ferrets on a flying motorbike, but I think we can safely assume Godric's Hollow is at least a few miles West or North West of Bristol . There is no particular reason for Hagrid to fly over Bristol if he were coming from South West of Bristol and heading for somewhere like Guildford, Surrey (although he might if Godric's Hollow is somewhere closish to Bristol such as Glastonbury, and he was using the line of the M5 to get his bearings before striking across country) so we can more or less rule out a Devonian or Cornish location for Godric's Hollow (unless, of course, Hagrid took a deliberately circutious route to deter pursuit by possible Voldemort supporters). I would put Godric's Hollow somewhere in South West Wales, probably in Pembrokeshire or Carmarthenshire. If you assume London is "probably close enough" to describe the birthplace of someone born on Welsh soil you are risking being blasted into smithereens however much of a muggle that person may be (and wasnn't Harry's mother an Evans? Further evidence for the Welsh connection. And the seeker in Quidditch is clearly the spiritual brother of the outside half in RU). I assume the Godric in question was Godric Gryffindor? Susan From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 12 08:54:22 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:54:22 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter's birthplace In-Reply-To: <000201c0f312$6023e560$0101010a@w98-1> Message-ID: <9g4lbu+5v9e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20603 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" wrote: > > >I would assume Harry's birthplace as Godric's Hollow. Use > >London...probably close enough. > > As Hermoine might have said, Astrology is a *very* imprecise subject, but > there's no need to treat Geography the same way. Hagrid picked up the baby > Harry from the ruins of his house in Godric's Hollow and flew him to the > Dursley household which is in Surrey (precise position unclear, but probably > about 25 miles SW of London would do it). Hagrid remarked that the baby > Harry had fallen asleep "when they were flying over Bristol". Bristol is > 120 miles due West of London. > Susan See the Lexicon for why this doesn't prove Godric's Hollow is in or near Wales. But the real problem is the assumption that Harry was born there. When they are in Godric's Hollow, they are on the run. Harry could have been born anywhere (at least anywhere in reach of the Evans diaspora). David, not a fan of Anne Robinson From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 08:58:36 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 01:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter's birthplace In-Reply-To: <9g4lbu+5v9e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612085836.96956.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20604 --- dfrankis at dial.pipex.com wrote: > See the Lexicon for why this doesn't prove Godric's > Hollow is in or > near Wales. > > But the real problem is the assumption that Harry > was born there. > When they are in Godric's Hollow, they are on the > run. Harry could > have been born anywhere (at least anywhere in reach > of the Evans > diaspora). > > David, not a fan of Anne Robinson > > Well I need something I can use, as well as a time of birth (doesn't have to be perfect a general time would be fine) but I can't just plug in the date and get the info. Place and time of birth DO have a very major effect on the natal chart. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 09:07:07 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:07:07 -0000 Subject: What Snape knows - Sirius trouble - CinderHermione - Flying - Floo talk Message-ID: <9g4m3r+luo4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20605 Marianne wrote: >I've always thought that Snape knew who MWPP were from his Hogwarts >days, assuming he probably heard them refer to each other by these >names. He obviously didn't know about the Animagi transformation, as >he is surprised when he sees Sirius transform from his dog state in >the hospital scene towards the end of GoF. He does know by that point that Sirius is an Animagus (he overheard that much in the Shrieking Shack), but he doesn't know what form he takes (Lupin didn't mention it). His surprise must come from not knowing what animal Sirius becomes, therefore having no suspicion about the dog, and also from shock that That Man is in the hospital wing of all places. Now I'm getting worried about Sirius again. Via Wormtail, the DEs can easily know by now that he's a big black dog Animagus. With Macnair infiltrating the MOM, this puts Sirius in danger not only from Voldemort/the DEs (for whom he's probably pretty low on the priorities list--though he might be a good way to get at Harry--hmmm) but from the MOM. Of course, Macnair can't just call up Fudge and say "Peter Pettigrew tells me the fugitive you've been looking for for a year can become a Newfie." But the whole thing seems very dangerous. I think Sirius should develop a new form. I know, I know, it probably can't be done. Pippin wrote: >He knows Moody's lying about Potter not being there, which he thinks >is favoritism on Moody's part, but he >doesn't want to tangle with ol' Mad-Eye. I never thought of that. I thought his "Moody may have joined your fan club" just referred to Moody's having given him a hard time about suspecting that Harry was there. I wonder if it's widely known that Moody's eye can see through Invisibility Cloaks. little Alex wrote: >I mean, we have enough geeky girl Cinderella stories, if you ask me. I agree. The Yule Ball was about all I could take of Hermione Goes Gorgeous. Susanna wrote: >So, I'm of the opinion that Rowling has made one of her very rare > errors, in not mentioning flying lessons again It doesn't have to be an error, just a choice, made for the same reason that she never shows us Ron and Hermione's birthdays or Astronomy class--there's just only so much she can tell us and keep the books under 1000 pages. Of course, I'd be happier if she would make them all =over= 1000 pages. Susanna also wrote: >In CF, Sirius black does some kind of Apparition, when his > head speaks to Harry from the fireplace. I presume that the fireplace > has to be connected to the Floo network in order to allow people this > kind of communication, and I can't imagine that, for mere security > reasons, Hogwarts fireplaces are connected- much too easy for > intruders. Good catch! Here's a try at defending Jo: I'm sure you can't take Floo powder into Hogwarts, at least not unless you're a professor and have some kind of magical security clearance. Since whatever you call Making Your Head Show Up in Someone's Fire would be a good way to spy, if not actually get into Hogwarts, you would think there would be some kind of barrier to strangers, fugitives, etc. doing so--again, a kind of security clearance (at a lower level than that needed for Floo travel, but still there). But Sirius and Dumbledore have been in contact, so Dumbledore may have given Sirius the kind of access he needs. They may even have spoken this way themselves before now. Amy Z ---------------------------------------------- Harry liked this clock. It was completely useless if you wanted to know the time, but otherwise very informative. -HP and the Goblet of Fire ---------------------------------------------- From bugganeer at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 09:09:45 2001 From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:09:45 -0000 Subject: Flying In-Reply-To: <9g4f3l+adpu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g4m8p+me70@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20606 I imaging groups of students getting together on thier off time to play Quidditch. "ey Ron we need a 7th for Quiditch, ya busy?" Surely they would occationally have races and obstical courses in physical education class. Just more weekly events not relevant to the story. The most we here of any event or class is when the plot is affected in some way. It was mentioned in CoS that Dumbledore used a broom when tricked into leaving Hogwarts. Bugg pigwidgeon37 wrote: > There's that strange thing about flying lessons at Hogwarts: In Harry's 1st year, few weeks after school has started, the Gryffindors have their first flying lesson together with the Slytherins. After this lesson there is no more mention whatsoever of flying lessons, other students flying (except for Quidditch training and matches)or, indeed, anybody flying. In CF, Mr. Weasley says that Apparating is quicker than going on a broomstick, even if no one has ever been mentioned using a broomstick as a means of transportation. > Any suggestions???? > Susanna From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 12 09:22:15 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:22:15 -0000 Subject: Fantastic Beings and Where We Find Them Message-ID: <9g4n07+ev0a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20607 Fantastic Beings and Where We Find Them The recent discussion about the possibility of Snape being a vampire set me thinking. We know from FB that all non-plant living things are classified by Wizards into Beings (who have some say in the running of magical affairs), Beasts, and Spirits. Newt Scamander does not precisely define which creatures are Beings. The list below is an attempt to glean as full a list as possible from the books (with a quick skim of the Lexicon too). I have done a bit of classifying by status in the sense of how certain we are. I have also indicated very roughly where we find them in canon. Chapter and verse exercise for the reader, as my teachers used to say. The idea is to have a basis for speculating about the secret identity of your favourite character. ***Definite: known to be classified as Beings, without any controversy:*** Wizards and witches; Hags (FB footnote, there is one in the Leaky Cauldron (PA) and they are mentioned by Lockhart) ? are they necessarily female?; Vampires (FB footnote). ***Voluntarily Excluded: meeting the criteria for Beings but voluntarily classified as Beasts:*** Centaurs (FB); Merpeople (FB). ***Debated: classified as Beings, according to some but not others:*** Muggles (FB); Werewolves (FB). ***Probable: not classified by Newt Scamander as Beasts, and almost certainly not Spirits:*** Goblins (strongly implied by FB as they get invited to all the discussions); House-elves (CS, GF); Dwarfs (CS), perhaps Professor Flitwick is a dwarf; Veela (GF) can interbreed with humans (wizards only?); Giants (GF), likewise; Leprechauns (GF); Dementors (PoA, GF); Banshees (CoS (Lockhart), also in PA as Seamus fears/imagines them to be). Could they (or any of the above, be Spirits?. ***Speculative: could be either Beings or Spirits*** Peeves (poltergeist) seems much more solid than the only known definite Spirits (ghosts). ***Questionable: not apparently meeting the Being criteria but not in FB:*** Boggarts, which are not counted as Beasts by Newt Scamander, but seem to share many characteristics with them. Could be Spirits. If they are Beings, then surely Lupin is violating some type of `Being rights' in his lesson. Blood-sucking Bugbear, suspected of killing roosters by Hagrid in CS. The question of the `Darkness' or otherwise, of these Beings is interesting. Dumbledore and Hermione regard the prejudice against Giants as just that; werewolves have already been brought out of the closet. Centaurs, who seem to display a range of character similar to humans, are clearly strongly opposed to classification with Hags and Vampires, and Dumbledore himself regards the Dementors as beyond the pale. We don't know why the Merpeople lined up with the Centaurs as Beasts: did they agree with their reasoning, or feel they couldn't belong to a system that would let go of the Centaurs so easily? The degree of magic is also variable, from House-elves with plenty, to Merpeople with, apparently, none. Have I missed any? Any thoughts? David From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Jun 12 12:22:35 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:22:35 +1000 Subject: Ethnic stereotyping, hybrids, time and animagi Message-ID: <004b01c0f33a$73b88860$a21d6fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 20608 Ebony wrote: > Sure, it'd be interesting to see what Rowling would do with exploring the so-called ethnic characters lives' in depth. Personally, I'd *much* rather see this not done at all than done poorly... > This is just my personal preference, but I appreciate it a lot better when a writer allows me, the reader, to fill in the blanks instead of filling them in incorrectly with guesses and half-baked stereotypes. I appreciate JKR immediately for doing this, and plan to follow her example in my own writing. Glad you (Ebony) appreciated my post on this issue! With the first point above, I agree: hence my comment that JKR's efforts, though they could be construed as a bit tokenistic, are well-intentioned and a positive step. With regard to the second point, though, what are everyone's thoughts on her efforts with the portrayal of the French and Eastern Europeans in GoF? I don't own this book yet (waiting for the paperback, read it from the library after a long wait!), but I seem to recall a whiff of francophobia and a touch of the ol' grim Iron Curtainism, though given the distance at which most Hogwarts students would have observed them, this isn't surprising. As David said: > a great many of the HP characters start off as stereotypes and then move out from that position. Speaking of stereotyping and Iron Curtainism, someone mentioned the work of David Eddings. Now *there's* a good example of ethnic stereotyping for us! Much as I loved DE as a teenager, and still find them good fun, I wince a little when I reread the Belgariad and co. How did I manage to miss the symbolism of the Free West and the Oppressed East, and the blatant "butchering 5000 baddies is a cause for celebration, but let the baddies kill ONE good guy and we declare them evil and swear vengeance unto eternity"?? And the feminists could go through him with a machete... Ahhh, so much musing on good ol' Snape. Where would half of our speculations be without him? By far the most intriguing character in the series. I'm still a proponent of Snape/Lily, though: you vampirical types haven't convinced me yet! As to Dumbledore and Snape, I'm with whoever said that Dumbledore has respect and understanding for Snape (whether or not he actually "likes" Snape seems almost irrelevant). Which is fair enough, if Snape successfully extricated himself from the Death Eaters and has since been spying on Voldemort's minions for him. That must have taken considerable craftiness and strength of character, even if it has left him bitter and spiteful (and taking this out on students he dislikes). The lurking Betty said: > I think the reason Krum and Cedric had Hermione and Cho instead of family was romantic love. We all know that love is a strong emotion, especially when it's new like an infatuation or a new relationship. Fleur and Harry, who have no romantic interests, have other bonds with the people. Ron is the first friend Harry made at Hogwarts, so no matter what happens, he'll always be special. Come to that, Ron is the first friend Harry ever has. Fleur may not have many friends, if any, because of how aloof she seems. However, family is usually important to someone, and for all we know, it may be all Fleur has. No rotten tomatoes from me for this: it makes extremely good sense to me. I suspect Fleur may have fallen to the victimising beautiful women and surviving on constant male attention syndrome I described. As for Malfoy being part-Veela, this would fit with his colouring, but not with his loud proclamations about pure blood, which seem quite cocky and genuine and not the protesting-too-much of someone rejecting their own impurity. On the subject of hybrids, here's an excerpt from a message I posted on the usenet Harry Potter list (which few people responded to, grumble, grumble) OK, so Hagrid and Maxime are both half-giants, which means that humans and giants can "mate" and produce viable, albeit huge, offspring. Similarly, Fleur is part-Veela. Does this mean that all of the humanoid creatures (goblins, house-elves,centaurs, hags, trolls, etc.) in HP could theoretically interbreed with the magic community? What happens if animagi reproduce while in animal form?? Oo-er, think about the possibilities this raises... Flitwick: Secret love child of Dumbledore and Winky! Crookshanks: Offspring of a lamented liaison between McGonagall in tabby form and Mrs Figg's orange Kneazle! Crabbe & Goyle: Products of Voldemort's sinister dabblings in Death Eater-troll liaisons in an attempt to swell the ranks of evil! Alex said: > Do fundamentalist Christians exist in Britain? I was hoping that the species doesn't spread that far. Ick. I was thinking, though, how Cho's parents would have acted when they first discovered, assuming, of course, that they aren't completely British-ized Well I'm Australian, so I can't speak with authority about Britain, but fundamentalist Christians certainly exist here, if not in such quantities and state-supported fervour as they do in the States (if our Prime Minister started going on about God's guidance he'd be laughed out of office. Australians are by and large a cynical, secular bunch). I too have long mused that Cho may have had a rocky road to Hogwarts. I've never noticed embracing a child who is markedly different from the Chinese ideal (accomplished, impressive in the "child as family mascot" competition, conservative in dress and social behaviour, respectful of parents, academically brilliant, employed in high-status field with financial security, married to good catch by mid to late twenties, etc.) being the rule in the wealthy Australian Chinese community where I grew up. Quite the contrary... I found my mother being beset with shame to mention to her Chinese friends that I was studying *Arts*, of all low-status degrees, when their children were all doing sensible, career-oriented, high status courses, like Medicine, Dentistry, Commerce and so on! "Aiyah, Arts!" she would wail in anguish. "Can't I tell them you are doing Science? Science is not so bad as Arts!" I tremble to imagine her response to her daughter going off at 11 to study witchcraft... > Yay! I support that ship (which is strange, 'cause I've been advocating for Ron/Draco in my hpslash group...). Ron and *Draco*?? Blimey, there's a combination. BTW, are there any slashfic writers who've followed the line of Colin Creevey being in love with Harry? Now that could be a work of comic genius... I think Colin and Ginny are both selling themselves short in Harry's esteem for the same reason: they are preoccupied not with Harry the person, but with Harry the famous historical figure. Just a more romanticised version of gawping at his scar, really: all a bit undignified. Granted, Ginny has also experienced the human side of Harry, but the hero-worship came first. >> Speaking of which, Hermione must have done a lot of extra ageing in PoA... >> maybe that's why she's so much more mature and politically aware in GoF! > Don't know, isn't it just the usual thing of girls maturing faster than boys of the same age? Both physically and mentally? And emotionally. I was thinking about the other implications of doing an extra... five hours a day? She could well be several months older than the others after a year on the Time-Turner! Or doesn't it work like that? I cast forth the question for thoughts... Pippin said: > > I beg to differ about there being no equivalent of animagi outside the Harry > > Potter universe. > Don't forget the Animorphs series of YA books by A.K. Applegate. Animagi: dime a dozen in the fantasy genre. Mythology is riddled with them, classic tales like Cinderella have them, not to mention fantasy by Piers Anthony, Nancy Springer, Ursula LeGuin, Terry Pratchett, David Eddings, CS Lewis, etc.etc. Even if you limit it to people who stay sentient after transforming into animals there must be hundreds of examples. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From reanna20 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 12:53:09 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 05:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Flying and Apparation In-Reply-To: <9g4f3l+adpu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612125309.58827.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20609 --- pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it wrote: > There's that strange thing about flying lessons at Hogwarts: In > Harry's 1st year, few weeks after school has started, the Gryffindors > have their first flying lesson together with the Slytherins. After > this lesson, which seems to have been inserted only for plot reasons > (how else would McGonagall have discovered Harry has got a natural > talent for flying?), there is no more mention whatsoever of flying > lessons, other students flying (except for Quidditch training and > matches)or, indeed, anybody flying. I rather agree with you. I remember thinking to myself, "Hm, no more flying lessons? Did everyone learn in one go?" But I can see why JKR doesn't put more references in. As Amy Z said, if she did the book would be really long (not that anybody on this list would mind!). Besides for Quidditch purposes, is there a reason to fly on a broom? Apparation is so much easier. Well, I suppose you would fly on a broom to places where you couldn't Apparate. Maybe Apparation wasn't always a talent that wizards/witches could do? Maybe they mutated and developed the ability over time? In which case, they "invented" brooms for transportation? I shouldn't say anything, I'm sure that these "questions" are answered in Quidditch Throughout The Ages, which I haven't read yet (Bad Amber, Bad! ). I'm sure somebody with a photographic mind and keen eye for detail will enlighten me... Although, I know *I* would love a broomstick ride. Flying through the air... I must admit, though, I can't imagine sitting on a broom can be that comfortable. If I had a broom, I'd rig a pad on it so I could ride side-broom. Another question on Apparation: can you Apparate to a place you haven't been to before? Seems like it, 'cause part of the Weasley can Apparated to the World Quidditch Cup and I think they probably wouldn't have been there before. Hrm, wonder how it works, I always imagined you would fix a picture of where you wanted to go in your mind and then Apparated. Maybe you could just say "To Diagon Alley!" or something like when wizards/witches travel by Floo powder. Geez, I can't wait until Harry gets to upper level magic! ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/12/2001 "DON'T THINK OF IT AS DYING, said Death. JUST THINK OF IT AS LEAVING EARLY TO AVOID THE RUSH." - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bohners at pobox.com Tue Jun 12 12:48:47 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:48:47 -0400 Subject: Sirius trouble References: <9g4m3r+luo4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <02b801c0f33f$81752080$ae98e2d1@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20610 Amy Z. wrote: > Pettigrew tells me the fugitive you've been looking for for a year can > become a Newfie." But the whole thing seems very dangerous. Well, yeah. Heaven knows Sirius might start singing "I's the Bye" at any moment. (Sorry, couldn't resist. "Newfie"?!) -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From bohners at pobox.com Tue Jun 12 12:58:20 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:58:20 -0400 Subject: Floo talk References: <9g4m3r+luo4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <02bb01c0f33f$82cc7320$ae98e2d1@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20611 > >In CF, Sirius black does some kind of Apparition, when his > > head speaks to Harry from the fireplace. I presume that the > fireplace > > has to be connected to the Floo network in order to allow people > this > > kind of communication, and I can't imagine that, for mere security > > reasons, Hogwarts fireplaces are connected- much too easy for > > intruders. > Good catch! Here's a try at defending Jo: > > I'm sure you can't take Floo powder into Hogwarts, at least not unless > you're a professor and have some kind of magical security clearance. I'm sure you can't get into the Hogwarts grounds via Floo any more than you can Apparate there, but within the Hogwarts grounds I don't see any reason you couldn't get from one fireplace to another using Floo powder. Not only because we've seen this used in PoA (Snape's summoning of Remus) but because it just seems to make good practical sense. Why walk all over creation if you don't have to -- especially in an emergency situation where it could be vitally important for you to get from one part of the grounds to another as fast as possible? Sirius's head in the fire in GoF is not, I think, a use of Floo powder. Floo powder is a method of travel and involves the whole body. The head-in-fire bit seems to be some other kind of magic, related but different -- with the emphasis on communication, rather than transportation. Although, Molly Weasley *did* give Amos Diggory's head a piece of toast in GoF... so it does seem as though in some regard the person's head is actually *there*. I suppose the head-in-the-fire trick *could* be the result of just sticking your head in a Floo fire, although that seems awfully uncomfortable. But in that case Sirius would have to have gotten special clearance from Dumbledore, or something, that would allow him access to Hogwarts via Floo. It's not inconceivable that Dumbledore would have allowed him this liberty, especially under the circumstances. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 12 13:04:35 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:04:35 -0000 Subject: Ageing Hermione In-Reply-To: <004b01c0f33a$73b88860$a21d6fcb@price> Message-ID: <9g5413+6096@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20612 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > I was thinking about the other implications of doing an extra... five hours a day? She could well be several months older than the others after a year on the Time-Turner! Or doesn't it work like that? I cast forth the question for thoughts... > I would guess two hours a day, five days a week, forty weeks a year is more realistic, i.e. 400 hours, something under 3 weeks. Five hours a day would be about 1000 hours, or 6 weeks. At age 13 - 14, not a huge difference, though given Hermione's birthday, just enough to put her technically into the academic year above Harry's. I think it must 'work' like that - Harry and Hermione would have gone on ageing. After all they have six hours of action-packed memories for a three hour period. I don't see how their body-clocks could rewind without wiping important memories when they use the time- turner. David From reanna20 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 13:09:00 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 06:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Typo In-Reply-To: <20010612125309.58827.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010612130900.54285.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20613 --- Amber wrote: > Seems like it, 'cause part of the Weasley can Apparated Er, yes, Amber *is* an idiot. That was supposed to be "'cause part of the Weasley clan Apparated". Clan not can. Sometimes I just need to slow down and type more calmly... Hm, short post. What further can I say? Oh, I know! Give me an H-O-G-W-A-R-T-S! HOGWARTS! ~Amber (We love Potter, yes we do, we love Potter, how 'bout you!) ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/12/2001 "DON'T THINK OF IT AS DYING, said Death. JUST THINK OF IT AS LEAVING EARLY TO AVOID THE RUSH." - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Tue Jun 12 13:07:13 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:07:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ethnic stereotyping & hybrids Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20614 Tabouli wrote > No rotten tomatoes from me for this: it makes extremely good > sense to me. I suspect Fleur may have fallen to the > victimising beautiful women and surviving on constant male > attention syndrome I described. As for Malfoy being > part-Veela, this would fit with his colouring, but not with > his loud proclamations about pure blood, which seem quite > cocky and genuine and not the protesting-too-much of someone > rejecting their own impurity. It's been unclear in canon as to whether "pure blood" means purely "magical" blood, in which case it would be possible to be a pure-blood and still have veelas, trolls or hags in one's background, or whether it means one only has witches & wizards in one's background. Also, Ernie MacMillan, in CoS, says that he can trace his family back through nine generations of witches & wizards. A muggle generation is approximately 15 years, and is based on birth years, and since it seems that in canon, witches & wizards have babies starting at approximately the same time muggles do, you really can't stretch that to more than 20 years in a wizarding generation. Therefore, nine generations of witches & wizards meeting the standard for "pure blood" (such that one will think that the Heir of Slytherin won't get him) cannot be more than 200 or so years. In other words, 1800-ish. Thus, it's a reasonable conjecture to think, if my second definition of "pure blood" is the real one, that if Draco's great great great great great great great great great grandmother was a Veela, he'd still be pureblood, and have a source for that silvery blond hair. heidi some people fear death; I fear literalists From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 13:51:41 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:51:41 -0000 Subject: Ginny's crush - Newfie (was Sirius trouble) Message-ID: <9g56pd+3tfj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20615 Tabouli wrote: > I think Colin and Ginny are both selling themselves short in Harry's esteem for > the same reason: they are preoccupied not with Harry the person, but with Harry > the famous historical figure. Just a more romanticised version of gawping at > his scar, really: all a bit undignified. Granted, Ginny has also experienced > the human side of Harry, but the hero-worship came first. Yeah. In Ginny's case, she had a whole year to work herself up about Famous Harry Potter and the tidbits, not enough to make him ordinary but enough to sharpen the fascination, that probably filtered down through owls from Ron. No wonder she was in so deep by the time she actually met him properly. You'd think the subsequent three years of close contact would have a cooling effect, though. I mean to say, of course the better you know Harry, the more you love him, but the remote grandeur of Boy Hero has to wear off when you share a common room with him, he's spent weeks at your house, and you've seen what he looks like first thing in the morning. (I used to live on a coed floor in college, and I think studies would show that sharing a hall and a bathroom with the other sex has a damping effect on unwanted pregnancy.) Rebecca wrote: > Well, yeah. Heaven knows Sirius might start singing "I's the Bye" at any > moment. ?? I don't get it. Is this some kind of Newfoundland, the place, reference that non-Canadians can only scratch their heads at? "Newfie" because I picture Sirius as a very large Newfoundland, the dog. "O my America! my new-found-land . . . " (Donne, "To His Dead Sexy Animagus Going to Bed") Amy Z ---------------------------------------------- Harry liked this clock. It was completely useless if you wanted to know the time, but otherwise very informative. -HP and the Goblet of Fire ---------------------------------------------- From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 15:12:26 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny's crush - Newfie (was Sirius trouble) In-Reply-To: <9g56pd+3tfj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612151226.97544.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20616 You'd think the subsequent three years of close contact would have a cooling effect, though. I mean to say, of course the better you know Harry, the more you love him, but the remote grandeur of Boy Hero has to wear off when you share a common room with him, he's spent weeks at your house, and you've seen what he looks like first thing in the morning. (I used to live on a coed floor in college, and I think studies would show that sharing a hall and a bathroom with the other sex has a damping effect on unwanted pregnancy.) We see this cooling effect especially with the Weasley family. At first, they are obsessed with the fact that he is "the famous Harry Potter" and couldn't believe that Ron had made friends with him. But now I think that they see Harry as there brother(maybe not Ginny though, cuz I'm still a Ginny/Ron shipper). It is hard to say if Ginny is over her hero worship of Harry, cuz she really hasn't been very developed at this point. My guess is she is over that..and her admiration for Harry is merely a average crush. She probably does admire him, but I know that there have been many guys that I have admired...so I don't think this is that unusual for a girl of her age. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bbennett at joymail.com Tue Jun 12 15:32:10 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:32:10 -0000 Subject: Ginny's crush In-Reply-To: <20010612151226.97544.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g5clq+5e43@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20617 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > We see this cooling effect especially with the Weasley family. At first, they are obsessed with the fact that he is "the famous Harry Potter" and couldn't believe that Ron had made friends with him. > I don't think I agree with the term "obsessed". Although the Weasleys were initially as shocked as anyone to see Harry at King's Cross, they all seemed to quickly accept him as Ron's friend and pretty much leave it at that (Ginny excluded, of course!). Percy, the twins - I don't recall that any of the Weasleys that Harry came into contact with during the beginning of the first term seemed to be obsessed with him - they seemed to me to treat him as their kid brother's friend. You're a Ginny/Harry shipper and not a Ginny/Ron shipper, right? Although we don't really know much about Ginny by GoF, I don't think she's still hero worshipping Harry - as someone said, it may be hard to hero worship someone you've actually gotten to know, even just a little, and Ginny's spent some time around around Harry by GoF. But neither do I think it's merely an average crush; I think 4 years is a long time for a regular crush to go on (my 23 year long crush on Harrison Ford not withstanding). Again, I think it's more than just admiration - I think Ginny really does love Harry from afar, regardless of the fact that she hasn't spent that much time with him (this doesn't mean I see evidence of H/G in canon - this is just my interpretation of Ginny from the little we have of her in the books). Of course, at that age, I found horses far more interesting than boys, so my opinion may be questionable . Best, B From vderark at bccs.org Tue Jun 12 15:49:23 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:49:23 -0000 Subject: Ginny's crush In-Reply-To: <9g5clq+5e43@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g5dm3+859o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20618 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote: > Again, I think it's more than just admiration - I think Ginny really > does love Harry from afar, regardless of the fact that she hasn't > spent that much time with him (this doesn't mean I see evidence of > H/G in canon - this is just my interpretation of Ginny from the > little we have of her in the books). Oh, I completely agree. I think that Ginny is as in love with the real (not legendary) Harry Potter as it is possible for her to be at her age. I see it particularly in her reaction when she realizes that if she hadn't said yes to Neville, she would have been able to go to the ball with Harry. Her reaction to that disappointment isn't that of a "silly schoolgirl," however. She doesn't pout or try to send a message to Harry that she would have loved to have gone. She doesn't do any of the flirty games things that girls her age do (and I see endlessly in school where I teach). In fact, her demeanor in that whole scene is remarkably mature. Is he the love of her life? That's impossible to say at this stage. But he is the love in her life right now. And after rescuing her from near death, he'll have to work pretty hard to shake that. Of course, at that age, I found > horses far more interesting than boys, so my opinion may be > questionable . At that age, I started learning to play guitar because girls love guitar music. It was all a ploy. And it worked more often than not :) Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 16:01:46 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny's crush *correction* In-Reply-To: <9g5clq+5e43@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612160146.19863.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20619 You're a Ginny/Harry shipper and not a Ginny/Ron shipper, right? Although we don't really know much about Ginny by GoF, I don't think she's still hero worshipping Harry - as someone said, it may be hard to hero worship someone you've actually gotten to know, even just a little, and Ginny's spent some time around around Harry by GoF. But neither do I think it's merely an average crush; I think 4 years is a long time for a regular crush to go on (my 23 year long crush on Harrison Ford not withstanding). Yes, I meant Ginny/Harry. I am not encouraging incestious relations between Ginny and her brother. However, I agree that Ginny's crush doesn't seem "average" but then again I have a person in my life that I had a feelings for , for quite sometime. So yes, I would say that my feelings for him wouldn't be a average crush, but it comes a point where you must accept that it is implausible and move on. However, that is real life and this Harry Potter...Ginny and Harry seem plausible and likely. Especially, when Harry that Ginny is a girl, and not just his best friends sister. They are still very young. We will probably see these relationships start to form in later years....maybe not a great deal until book 6 actually. However, I am thinking on the relationship front Harry is going to have many more things to keep his mind occupied. For one thing, I am envisioning some sort of brief Ron/Hermione/Harry triangle. Although, I don't think it would be more than a misunderstanding on Ron/Hermione's part. I think that Ron will think that Harry and Hermione like eachother, when they don't see eachother that way at all. I think for a bit Ron will be a bit jealous, but it won't last. I think this will happen in OOP. But they are still young, and very innocent as far as those things go so it will be awhile. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 16:05:34 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:05:34 -0000 Subject: Sirius trouble In-Reply-To: <02b801c0f33f$81752080$ae98e2d1@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9g5eke+4rd2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20620 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote: > Amy Z. wrote: > > > Pettigrew tells me the fugitive you've been looking for for a year can > > become a Newfie." But the whole thing seems very dangerous. > > Well, yeah. Heaven knows Sirius might start singing "I's the Bye" at any > moment. > > (Sorry, couldn't resist. "Newfie"?!) Rebecca, this completely passed me by. Explain?! Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 16:03:28 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:03:28 -0000 Subject: Ethnic stereotyping, possible Xenophobia? In-Reply-To: <004b01c0f33a$73b88860$a21d6fcb@price> Message-ID: <9g5egg+ffbf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20621 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: With regard to the second point, though, what are everyone's thoughts on her efforts with the portrayal of the French and Eastern Europeans in GoF? I don't own this book yet (waiting for the paperback, read it from the library after a long wait!), but I seem to recall a whiff of francophobia and a touch of the ol' grim Iron Curtainism, though given the distance at which most Hogwarts students would have observed them, this isn't surprising. As David said: > > > a great many of the HP characters start off as stereotypes and then move out from that position. I enjoyed your post - the only thing I don't particularly agree with is the possible Francophobia which creeps in. I didn't find this at all. Looking at the characters portrayed, Fleur is the only one who has excited any animosity - and I think this was due more to her part- Veela influence of the boys, and her arrogance (which swiftly disapparates after the second task) which annoyed Hermione, not her Frenchness. Harry is annoyed with her for being condescending, but is impressed with the way she handles herself before facing the dragon, and again, none of this is to do with nationality. I much prefer the comment above that the characters start as stereotypes before they are fleshed out. I was going to say that in this case, they may start off as National stereotypes, but I don't think this is the case - as far as I can see, the only distinguishing thing shown is accent and tastebuds. Am a missing something? The same applies to Madame Maxine. She commands a great deal of respect from her students, (and from Dumbledore for that matter). The only criticism of her is that she does not want to admit to being part Giant, and considering the way Hagrid was treated, who can blame her? I think JKR did point out the odd cultural differences, but pokes just as much fun at the English than the French. A good example of this is Ron not being prepared to try Bouillabaise, but helping himself to Black pudding (one of my favourite comic moments). I don't think JKR is being the slightest bit Xenophobic. She had to put the other schools somewhere in Europe, afterall, and showing the odd difference between them provides for a lighter tone. Also, regarding Durmstrang. I never thought about any Iron Curtainisms here. For one thing, we don't know where Durmstrang is (see recent thread). Of course, Krum is Bulgarian, and Igor Karkaroff does sound Eastern European, but again it is too much of a generalisation to say that JKR put Durmstrang in Eastern Europe because it advocates the Dark Arts and most Wizards who are interested in their children being educated this way come from there. In the context of GoF, we see one good character (Krum) and one bad character (Karkaroff) coming from there, which balances this out. Also in the context of the books, the Darkest Wizard of the age comes from good old England, so go figure. Finally, we don't actually know that the Dark Arts are taught there - only on Malfoy's say so, which I tend to take with pinch of salt. Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 16:26:18 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:26:18 -0000 Subject: Ginny's crush In-Reply-To: <9g5dm3+859o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g5fra+4rlr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20622 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote: > > > Again, I think it's more than just admiration - I think Ginny > really > > does love Harry from afar, regardless of the fact that she hasn't > > spent that much time with him (this doesn't mean I see evidence of > > H/G in canon - this is just my interpretation of Ginny from the > > little we have of her in the books). > > Oh, I completely agree. I think that Ginny is as in love with the > real (not legendary) Harry Potter as it is possible for her to be at > her age. I see it particularly in her reaction when she realizes that > if she hadn't said yes to Neville, she would have been able to go to > the ball with Harry. Her reaction to that disappointment isn't that > of a "silly schoolgirl," however. She doesn't pout or try to send a > message to Harry that she would have loved to have gone. She doesn't > do any of the flirty games things that girls her age do (and I see > endlessly in school where I teach). In fact, her demeanor in that > whole scene is remarkably mature. Is he the love of her life? That's > impossible to say at this stage. But he is the love in her life right > now. And after rescuing her from near death, he'll have to work > pretty hard to shake that. I've been resisting this (for all of 10 minutes) because I don't want to start myself off on a rant again about how much I love Ginny, but... I agree! I have stressed before the fact that Ginny seems remarkably mature - not just in behaving in a considerate way over the Ball, but keeping Hermione's secret, comforting, almost mothering Ron when he has embarrassed himself in front of Fleur. What initially made me think there was more to her than some people on this list allow, though, was when she stood up for Harry in Flourish and Blotts, when Malfoy is ridiculing him about Lockhart. She wasn't afraid to speak in front of Harry when she was defending him. I thought this was very sweet, and very brave. I also want to differentiate between the Creevey brothers and Ginny, as they do get lumped together in the "hero worship of Harry" category. Harry treats them very differently. He always tries to brush off the brothers. In every instance when we see interaction between him and Ginny, he is kind to her. For example, pretending not to notice how clumsy she is around him, when he first visits the Burrow. Now, he could be being nicer to her because she is Ron's sister - but I think that he does like her, and treats her as a person instead of a hanger on, sycophant such as the Creeveys. That sounds harsh on the Creeveys - I do like them, but can quite understand why Harry finds them annoying. OK, I managed to keep that quite short! I am not a G/H shipper - I don't really care who they end up with, but I do like Ginny and will always want to defend her! Catherine From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 16:33:34 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:33:34 -0000 Subject: Ethnic stereotyping, possible Xenophobia? In-Reply-To: <9g5egg+ffbf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g5g8u+b61q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20623 Catherine wrote: > Also, > regarding Durmstrang. I never thought about any Iron Curtainisms > here. For one thing, we don't know where Durmstrang is (see recent > thread). Of course, Krum is Bulgarian, and Igor Karkaroff does sound > Eastern European, but again it is too much of a generalisation to say > that JKR put Durmstrang in Eastern Europe because it advocates the > Dark Arts and most Wizards who are interested in their children being > educated this way come from there. In the context of GoF, we see one > good character (Krum) and one bad character (Karkaroff) coming from > there, which balances this out. Also in the context of the books, > the Darkest Wizard of the age comes from good old England, so go > figure. Finally, we don't actually know that the Dark Arts are > taught there - only on Malfoy's say so, which I tend to take with > pinch of salt. > I do think there's a bit of Iron Curtainism going on. It's not just Karkaroff, who, as you say, is balanced by Krum, and by the otherwise entirely British or unidentified-ethnicity cast of Death Eaters we've met so far. There's the secrecy, for one thing. Then there are the names, which are all Eastern European except for "Durmstrang" itself. Sirius, not just Draco, says Karkaroff has "been teaching the Dark Arts to every student who passes through that school of his" (GF 19). I don't find these Cold War echoes xenophobic, myself; I agree that the British come off as badly in the comparison as the French and mysterious-Nordic-Slavics. Black pudding, anyone? Amy Z ---------------------------------------------- Harry liked this clock. It was completely useless if you wanted to know the time, but otherwise very informative. -HP and the Goblet of Fire ---------------------------------------------- From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 16:51:04 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Has anyone thought of this? In-Reply-To: <9g5fra+4rlr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612165104.99689.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20624 Okay there has been a great deal of talk on many message boards, and a little here that one of Harry's biggest admirers might die in the next book. I have a hunch that it might be a bit of sarcasm on JKR's part and that it might be snape(but part of me doesn't believe that JKR would kill off Snape in the 5th book. He's too interesting of a character, I think). I also don't see it being the Colin Creevy, mainly because I think that it would be way too easy for her to kill off a character like Colin, that I doubt would be missed all too much. Why wouldn't it be Ginny? I think that she does have very deep feelings for Harry, more than just a simple admirer. She is suppossed to have a larger part in this next book. Killing off Ginny, as sad as it would be, would bring about some interesting dynamics in the rest of the relationships. Of course, Ron would be devistated. I think that in a very adolescent state of mind Ron could even find a way of blaming Harry for his death, especially if trying to help Harry to some degree. Or maybe because we have seen that sometimes love can make girls do crazy things, and she might be more susceptible to Harry's not seeing her as anything but a sister. I am not saying this will happen, but i just wanted to see if anyone else thought this to plausible. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dosser at btinternet.com Tue Jun 12 12:46:28 2001 From: dosser at btinternet.com (Chris Dosset) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:46:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nail Out All Those Letters (filk) References: <9g3pra+v1cu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0f361$42457780$6f0e073e@chris> No: HPFGUIDX 20625 WOW! I never had a song dedicated to me before! You're the best Caius. Chris P.S. I love the way you rhymed "wishin'" and "magician" ----- Original Message ----- From: Caius Marcius To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:04 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nail Out All Those Letters (filk) Nail Out All Those Letters (from SS/PS, Chap. 3) (To the tune of I'm Gonna Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter) Dedicated to Chris Dosset THE SCENE: 4 Privet Drive. Enter VERNON DURSELY, with a toolbox. VERNON I'm gonna get right down and nail out all those letters They're make-believe, tell my nephew. To stop messages from owls I'll use fair means or use foul I won't be havin' that boy wishin' He was a magician I'm gonna sleep (I hope) all night behind my doorway To seize each missive that comes through Because it's going to be an awfully poor day If Harry joins that wizard crew I'm gonna drive all night and then I'll rent a rowboat And hide out on an island grim And I will not allow Harry the chance to cast a "no" vote I'll be making it a rule He won't go to that Hog school I am only doing this for him! - CMC Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Yahoo! Website Services- Click Here! _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joym999 at aol.com Tue Jun 12 17:47:27 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:47:27 -0000 Subject: Fantastic Beings and Where We Find Them In-Reply-To: <9g4n07+ev0a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g5kjf+k3oj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20626 Wow! Excellent post, David. I dont think that Dementors are Beings, though. There has been some speculation that they are some kind of Spirit. There are other creatures that may be Spirits as well, like Mummies. But there are other creatures, like as you mention Boggarts and Bugbears, which I think are likely to be Beasts that JKR forgot to mention in FB. --Joywitch From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jun 12 17:54:23 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:54:23 -0000 Subject: Has anyone thought of this? In-Reply-To: <20010612165104.99689.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g5l0f+m7lp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20627 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > Okay there has been a great deal of talk on many message boards, and a little here that one of Harry's biggest admirers might die in the next book. I have a hunch that it might be a bit of sarcasm on JKR's part and that it might be snape(but part of me doesn't believe that JKR would kill off Snape in the 5th book. He's too interesting of a character, I think). I also don't see it being the Colin Creevy, mainly because I think that it would be way too easy for her to kill off a character like Colin, that I doubt would be missed all too much. Why wouldn't it be Ginny? I think that she does have very deep feelings for Harry, more than just a simple admirer. She is suppossed to have a larger part in this next book. Killing off Ginny, as sad as it would be, would bring about some interesting dynamics in the rest of the relationships. Of course, Ron would be devistated. I think that in a very adolescent state of mind Ron could even find a way of blaming Harry for his death, especially if trying to help Harry to some degree. Or maybe because we have seen that sometimes love can make girls do crazy things, and she might be more susceptible to Harry's not seeing her as anything but a sister. I am not saying this will happen, but i just wanted to see if anyone else thought this to plausible. > > Melanie One of Harry's admirers will be killed in book 5? How did that rumor get started? IMO, if anyone should be killed in the next two books (more like book 6), it should be Dumbledore because it will affect all the characters and it will force Harry to take a leadership role. Milz From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 12 17:55:44 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:55:44 -0000 Subject: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: <20010612165104.99689.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g5l30+1d3c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20628 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > Okay there has been a great deal of talk on many message boards, and a little here that one of Harry's biggest admirers might die in the next book. I have a hunch that it might be a bit of sarcasm on JKR's part and that it might be snape(but part of me doesn't believe that JKR would kill off Snape in the 5th book. He's too interesting of a character, I think). I also don't see it being the Colin Creevy, mainly because I think that it would be way too easy for her to kill off a character like Colin, that I doubt would be missed all too much. Why wouldn't it be Ginny? Because she is the first eligible female Harry encounters, and so by the laws of fiction (and many and mighty are they), she is Harry's destined true love. :ducks return fire from the good ship H/H: She won't die, unless she dies in book 7, and if she does, then Harry will die too (sob!). I could see her being presumed dead for a while though...but really, if you want Ron to be mad at Harry, there are lots of Weasleys that could be killed off. How about Molly? Pippin From bbennett at joymail.com Tue Jun 12 18:02:11 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:02:11 -0000 Subject: Ginny, will she die next, & H/H/R In-Reply-To: <9g5l0f+m7lp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g5lf3+llt9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20629 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > Okay there has been a great deal of talk on many message boards, and a little here that one of Harry's biggest admirers might die in the next book. Why wouldn't it be Ginny? > An English-lit-majored friend thinks that either Harry will die sacrificing himself for his loved ones or that Harry's love will be killed by the bad guys, breaking Harry's heart and thus driving him to take out Voldemort by whatever means necessary. I can't recall the exact terms of her argument, but she went on and on about classical literature, heroes, and villians, and it all made sense at the time . I think JKR has a lot in store for Ginny and won't kill her off in book 5. However, if Harry and Ginny do become an item, I'm worried that she won't survive her 6th year (on top of being worried that Harry won't survive his 7th). Catherine wrote: I like Ginny. She does come across as young in the first two books (which she was), but I really liked her in GoF, especially considering we see so little of her. I think that it's telling of her advancing maturity that we get the idea Ginny *doesn't* rush off to cry into her pillow when she finds out Harry asked Cho to the dance. Melanie also wrote: I like this idea, Melanie! By my interpretation of canon, A: Harry has no interest in Hermione and vice versa* B: Harry is quite aware that Ron is interested in her C: Ron is a clueless idiot on the subject. *I don't think Hermione has romantic feelings for Harry, but I know opinions vary on the subject :*) When Ron starts to recognize his feelings for Hermione, I could see him misunderstanding Harry's relationship with her. How would Hermione react to Ron thinking she and Harry have a romantic relationship? B From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 18:14:52 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Has anyone thought of this? In-Reply-To: <9g5l0f+m7lp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612181452.27611.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20630 Milz, Um it was hinted at in one of the chats apparently..I remember reading it...I might go and find the transcript again..it isn't a rumor though cuz jkr was the one who said it...but still it is a rumor as to who.. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From reanna20 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 18:15:43 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: <9g5l30+1d3c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612181543.56103.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20631 --- foxmoth at qnet.com wrote: > I could see her being presumed dead for a while though...but > really, if you want Ron to be mad at Harry, there are lots of > Weasleys that could be killed off. How about Molly? I read some speculation that Percy might be a next casualty. Some people think that Percy will experience great conflict between what he has to do at his job and what is "right". And somewhere in the choice, he dies. Of course, any of the Weasley's dying could provide would give up an angst-ridden Ron/Harry/Hermione. I think Ron's safe for at least the next book. If a Weasley *had* to die and I was given the choice of who it was, I'd say either Bill or Charlie. I have no attachments to them right now and like them the least. In fact, I often "forget" that they are part of the family. Now as to whom JKR would choose that's anybody's guess... ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/12/2001 "DON'T THINK OF IT AS DYING, said Death. JUST THINK OF IT AS LEAVING EARLY TO AVOID THE RUSH." - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 18:18:17 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: <9g5l30+1d3c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612181817.48368.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20632 ? Because she is the first eligible female Harry encounters, and so by the laws of fiction (and many and mighty are they), she is Harry's destined true love. :ducks return fire from the good ship H/H: She won't die, unless she dies in book 7, and if she does, then Harry will die too (sob!). I could see her being presumed dead for a while though...but really, if you want Ron to be mad at Harry, there are lots of Weasleys that could be killed off. How about Molly? Pippin I can't see molly getting killed..but I definitely can see Arthur..I don't neccessarily think that I want ron mad at harry but I think that to say the 2 of them will have a conflict free relationship for the next few books..is really silly.. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From seimmud at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 18:22:06 2001 From: seimmud at hotmail.com (seimmud at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:22:06 -0000 Subject: How many Death Eaters? Message-ID: <9g5mke+bafj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20633 I don't know if this was mentioned before, but I wonder how many Death Eaters there are. Before I read GoF, I thought that there were hundreds or thousands of Death Eaters (in relation with about 6000 wizards and witches in Great Britain). But when the DE appeared after Voldemorts "rebirth" they made a circle around Voldemort. There were only a few DE, some are death or absent. Voldemort didn't say anything to some DE, but I don't think that there were so many DE unmentioned. And the circle cannot be so big for some hundred DEs. And: Are they all the DEs of the entired world? Or only the DE of GB? IMO, they should be all DEs because Voldemort wanted to show all his followers that he is back. What is your opinion about that? Katja From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Tue Jun 12 18:22:48 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:22:48 -0000 Subject: Ginny's crush In-Reply-To: <9g5fra+4rlr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g5mlp+nc63@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20634 Has anyone wondered if perhaps Ginny has had some magical foresight that she is destined to be involved with Harry in some way? This cold explain why her crush is more enduring than a normal muggle one. Florence (not a shipper) From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 18:27:18 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:27:18 -0000 Subject: What kind of evidence is there about how ron feels for hermione Message-ID: <9g5mu6+r8v5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20635 Can some really clever person email me with their evidence. I am at rowanbrookt at hotmail.com From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 18:49:23 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny, will she die next, & H/H/R In-Reply-To: <9g5lf3+llt9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612184923.59550.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20636 I like this idea, Melanie! By my interpretation of canon, A: Harry has no interest in Hermione and vice versa* B: Harry is quite aware that Ron is interested in her C: Ron is a clueless idiot on the subject. *I don't think Hermione has romantic feelings for Harry, but I know opinions vary on the subject :*) When Ron starts to recognize his feelings for Hermione, I could see him misunderstanding Harry's relationship with her. How would Hermione react to Ron thinking she and Harry have a romantic relationship? I"m actually not sure if Hermione has feelings for Harry or not. It's hard to say at this point. Maybe she does, but then maybe she is just the typical girl who really doesn't know who she wants. Although, I do wonder about that kiss on the cheek at the end of the book. I mean it's very interesting to me that she did that..I have a hunch that it will play a much more important role in the plot later in the story. Which brings me back to my initial thought of Ron thinking that Hermione likes Harry, when in reality it's just a friendship gesture..Although, it might very well be that she doesn't want to lead ron on. Who knows.....I'm sure that Hermione would be shocked if Ron thought she and Harry had something going on..but I think she would leave it for the boys to work out on their own. I agree though that I don't think Harry likes Hermione..i don't see any evidence that he likes Ginny though either..we have seen evidence that he likes Cho. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JamiDeise at aol.com Tue Jun 12 18:52:38 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:52:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20637 In a message dated 6/12/2001 2:20:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, reanna20 at yahoo.com writes: << I read some speculation that Percy might be a next casualty. Some people think that Percy will experience great conflict between what he has to do at his job and what is "right". And somewhere in the choice, he dies. >> I'm one of those people who think Percy'll run into trouble with the Dark Side at work, but I don't think he'll realize he's in trouble until it's too late. I can see him going along, following the rules, maybe working directly for Fudge, being a good employee and not realizing until too late that he's been carrying out orders for a DE. By the time he realizes what's really going on, I don't think he'd be in conflict at all -- he'd do all he can to undo the damage, probably dying in the effort. It's also been commented that perhaps Percy, Fred and George's ambition could lead them astray. I don't believe that any of them have the type of ambition that could be channeled in a negative direction. Percy, I think, has a great admiration for rules, processes and procedures -- he believes that by following rules to the letter, all will be right in the world. That's why he wants to be MoM. I don't think he's on a power trip as much as he just loves procedures. He has yet to be tested in a situation where he can see for himself that breaking the rules is the right thing to do. I believe this is coming. As for Fred and George, only in GoF did they act in a way that could be inferred as ambitious, in going after what Bagman owed them. Here, I think it was less a matter of ambition and wanting the money, as much as it was indignation that this MoM official, famed former Quidditch player, had cheated them. I believe that if Bagman had told them after the bet that he was overextended and could they work out some kind of payment plan, the twins would have accepted that gesture. But they'd been cheated, they were angry ... still, they kept quiet about what a welcher the man was. I don't have a clue who's going to die in book 5 ... but I think Dumbledore will die in 6, and Ron in 7. Jami From JamiDeise at aol.com Tue Jun 12 18:52:37 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:52:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20638 In a message dated 6/12/2001 1:59:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: << Why wouldn't it be Ginny? Because she is the first eligible female Harry encounters, and so by the laws of fiction (and many and mighty are they), she is Harry's destined true love. >> I think that rule only holds true for romantic fiction ... and I don't think it's Ginny because she came so close to dying in CoS ... I can't see JKR playing that card again. Jami From joym999 at aol.com Tue Jun 12 19:18:36 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:18:36 -0000 Subject: Who is Head Boy? Message-ID: <9g5puc+s83e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20639 In GoF, it is never mentioned who is Head Boy or, for that matter, Head Girl that year. Is Cedric Head Boy? It is mentioned that he is a prefect, but if he is so wonderful that he is picked as champion, wouldnt it be logical that he was also picked as Head Boy? I think that JKR is somewhat inconsistent about this Head Boy/Girl/Prefect thing, only mentioning them when it fits into the plot. However, it seems illogical that we have never been told who the other Gryffindor prefects are (other than Percy, and especially after he graduates), or who the Head Boy and Girl are. --Joywitch From old_wych at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 19:29:13 2001 From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is Head Boy? In-Reply-To: <9g5puc+s83e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010612192913.1643.qmail@web5204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20640 Cedric couldn't be Head Boy because he was only in 6th year. IIRC it's mentioned in PoA that he was in 5th year then. Anne --- joym999 at aol.com wrote: > In GoF, it is never mentioned who is Head Boy or, > for that matter, > Head Girl that year. Is Cedric Head Boy? It is > mentioned that he is > a prefect, but if he is so wonderful that he is > picked as champion, > wouldnt it be logical that he was also picked as > Head Boy? > > I think that JKR is somewhat inconsistent about this > Head > Boy/Girl/Prefect thing, only mentioning them when it > fits into the > plot. However, it seems illogical that we have > never been told who > the other Gryffindor prefects are (other than Percy, > and especially > after he graduates), or who the Head Boy and Girl > are. > > --Joywitch > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 19:59:49 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:59:49 -0000 Subject: Who is Head Boy? In-Reply-To: <9g5puc+s83e@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g5sbl+ruu1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20641 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > In GoF, it is never mentioned who is Head Boy or, for that matter, > Head Girl that year. I think that JKR is somewhat inconsistent about this Head > Boy/Girl/Prefect thing, only mentioning them when it fits into the > plot. However, it seems illogical that we have never been told who > the other Gryffindor prefects are (other than Percy, and especially > after he graduates), or who the Head Boy and Girl are. Joy, my favorite witch, don't take this wrong, but maybe JKR doesn't tell us this stuff because it's b o r i n g! I can't say I care who is any of these things until it gets to characters we know and love (and introduces exciting innovations like the Bath of Many Taps). Hagrid may be impressed that Lily and James were Head Girl and Boy, but Harry and Co. don't seem to give a knut. If anything, being prefect or HB/HG (hmm...Hermione's initials...prophetic? most likely) is a social liability to our little band of rulebreakers. I bet this question will get more interesting to Our Heroes, and therefore to us, when they're old enough to be picked or not. That might stir up some interesting feelings. Will those of the Trio who aren't so honored be jealous of those that are? or of whoever becomes a prefect/HB/HG? Will one or more of them become a prefect and have to clean up his/her act? (I can just see Ron telling McGonagall that Harry has an Invisibility Cloak and is probably the one who had a midnight party in the greenhouses. Yeah, sure I can.) Will Harry feel pressure to follow in his esteemed parents' footsteps- -or will he decide, rightly, that defeating Voldemort on a regular basis is quite as prestigious? Amy Z From litalex at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 20:04:02 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ethnic stereotyping, hybrids, time In-Reply-To: <004b01c0f33a$73b88860$a21d6fcb@price> Message-ID: <20010612200402.85692.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20642 Hello, --- Tabouli wrote: > OK, so Hagrid and Maxime are both half-giants, which > means that humans and giants can "mate" > and produce viable, albeit huge, offspring. Actually, that's the part I'm a bit sqeamish about. How large are giants, really? If the mother is human, would the baby have to be prematurely born or C-sectioned out? Or would the birth kill the mother? Heck, I don't want to get too graphic, but wouldn't sex itself really hurt the human female? And if it's a human male with a female giant, would the female...feel anything? Okay, I'm quitting before we get pornographic. > [snip examples of cross-breeding] Ahhhhhh! > our Prime Minister started going on about God's > guidance he'd be laughed out of office. Australians > are by and large a cynical, secular bunch). Thank the gods that at least some countries are. > Arts!" she would wail in anguish. "Can't I tell > them you are doing Science? Science is not so bad > as Arts!" You can attack the problem like my uncle did: get a computer science B.S. and then pursue an associates degree in computer graphics design . I, otoh, am going to try for a law degree, despite my family's lack of traditional values (as long as I get good grades, no one cares about my major of choice). > I tremble to imagine her response to her > daughter going off at 11 to study witchcraft... Eeek. Kicked out of the house, perhaps? > Ron and *Draco*?? Blimey, there's a combination. Well, it's just that there are too many Draco/Harry stories and I want a little variety. We see Harry and D being arch enemies because Harry is the main character. But Ron and Draco have more in common: both are pure-bloods, both have high expectations to meet (whether sefl-set or set by family), both are from long standing wizard families... > BTW, are there any slashfic writers who've followed > the line of Colin Creevey being in love with Harry? > Now that could be a work of comic genius... I know some did, but Remus/Sirius and Draco/Harry seem a lot more popular. Perhaps Colin is too...comic a figure for the hopeless romantics many slashers seem to be. > I think Colin and Ginny are both selling themselves > short in Harry's esteem for the same reason: they > are preoccupied not with Harry the person, but with > Harry the famous historical figure. Just a more Exactly! > I was thinking about the other implications of doing > an extra... five hours a day? She could well be > several months older than the others after a year on > the Time-Turner! Or doesn't it work like that? I > cast forth the question for thoughts... Oh, hmm. Good point. I think the scenario in David's post is a very good possibility. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 12 20:08:30 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:08:30 -0000 Subject: Flying In-Reply-To: <9g4f3l+adpu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g5sru+nb6s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20643 Susanna wrote: "There's that strange thing about flying lessons at Hogwarts: In Harry's 1st year, few weeks after school has started, the Gryffindors have their first flying lesson together with the Slytherins. After this lesson, which seems to have been inserted only for plot reasons (how else would McGonagall have discovered Harry has got a natural talent for flying?), there is no more mention whatsoever of flying lessons, other students flying (except for Quidditch training and matches)or, indeed, anybody flying." "Another word as to Apparating in the grounds of Hogwarts not being possible: In CF, Sirius black does some kind of Apparition, when his head speaks to Harry from the fireplace." --I can think of two good parallels for flying. One is PE which students are required to take in their first year of High School, and is optional thereafter. Another and better example would probably be Driver's Education. The point of drivers education is to prepare one for getting their license, and no license is required for broomstick flying. Apparation lessons would be a better parallel. Anyway the flying lessons seem to be a first year thing, but I don't think they are a one time thing. We just don't see the rest of the lessons because they aren't important to the plot. Also before actually getting out and flying I'm suprised they didn't go over broom safety tips. Then again they might have and it wasn't mentioned. As for Sirius sticking his head in the fire...well this has been explained pretty well. It seems to be likened to a telephone conversation, except it's a lot more trouble. Didn't JKR say wizards have something like the internet? Did I just Imagine it? Scott From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 20:32:37 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:32:37 -0000 Subject: Has anyone thought of this? In-Reply-To: <20010612165104.99689.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g5u95+fqdh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20644 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > Okay there has been a great deal of talk on many message boards, and a little here that one of Harry's biggest admirers might die in the next book. I have a hunch that it might be a bit of sarcasm on JKR's part and that it might be snape(but part of me doesn't believe that JKR would kill off Snape in the 5th book. He's too interesting of a character, I think). I also don't see it being the Colin Creevy, mainly because I think that it would be way too easy for her to kill off a character like Colin, that I doubt would be missed all too much. Why wouldn't it be Ginny? I think that she does have very deep feelings for Harry, more than just a simple admirer. She is suppossed to have a larger part in this next book. Killing off Ginny, as sad as it would be, would bring about some interesting dynamics in the rest of the relationships. Of course, Ron would be devistated. I think that in a very adolescent state of mind Ron could even find a way of blaming Harry for his death, especially if trying to help Harry to some degree. Or maybe because we have seen that sometimes love can make girls do crazy things, and she might be more susceptible to Harry's not seeing her as anything but a sister. I am not saying this will happen, but i just wanted to see if anyone else thought this to plausible. > > Melanie OK, I'm in a quandry about this one. Firstly, I haven't heard that particular rumour. Where did you get it from - was it from a reliable source? Anyone else - Steve?? If it is true, of course Ginny seems the obvious candidate, apart from the fact that I always thought that Voldemort would be most likely to go for non-purebloods first. The other thing is, I've always had the feeling that JKR is deliberately waiting to develop Ginny. She puts in the odd scene which IMO are very revealing about Ginny's character, and I always hoped that this would be developed and sustained in future books. She is the character that I have always kept an eye on - I always want more than is actually there. So I would be very disappointed if it were to be Ginny. Other admirers of Harry. Well, I'd put Hagrid high up on the list. Though much as it pains me to say it, I think JKR is less likely to kill him off than Ginny, because he provides so much of the lighter interludes in the books. OTOH, perhaps JKR is running out of ideas on the dangerous creatures Hagrid could next get into trouble with. It is also plausible that his diplomatic mission to the giants goes wrong. What I think most plausible is Fleur. I know that she is not someone who we would automatically think of in relation to Harry, but she obviously has a lot of admiration for him - ever since the second task when he rescues her sister. She is also peripheral enough at the moment for it not to impact too dramatically on all JKR's devoted readers. Just some thoughts, Catherine From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 21:04:21 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:04:21 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and Astrology In-Reply-To: <000201c0f312$6023e560$0101010a@w98-1> Message-ID: <9g604l+7pva@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20645 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" wrote: > I would put Godric's Hollow somewhere in South West Wales, > probably in Pembrokeshire or Carmarthenshire. If you assume London is > "probably close enough" to describe the birthplace of someone born on Welsh > soil you are risking being blasted into smithereens however much of a muggle > that person may be (and wasnn't Harry's mother an Evans? Further evidence > for the Welsh connection. And the seeker in Quidditch is clearly the > spiritual brother of the outside half in RU). Thanks for your input. As a Yankee who hasn't even left Florida much, I don't know much about Welsh pride. I've heard about Scottish pride...and Irish pride is rather well known...but I don't know who else from whatever region is in question would or wouldn't "blast" me otherwise...well, at this point I don't but maybe that will change. So how do Harry's "Welsh" qualities show up in the Canon, if at all? I would appreciate learning something about this. BTW, I have been told through a private email that work has indeed been done on Harry Potter's astrological background before...on this site. If this is indeed the case, I will look up the old messages that someone referred me to...thanks. N From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Jun 12 21:12:23 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:12:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny's crush Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20646 Hi everyone -- I'm still sorting through the mess of my life after the Allison floods here in Houston and swore I wouldn't post here for awhile (just reading the messages on my inlaws' dialup connection is taking time) but .... <<>> I've seen this mentioned before, especially with the Ginny threads today and I just have to ask why people have the perception that she has an unusually long (and therefore significant) crush on Harry? Maybe it's just me (and again, maybe interesting psychological insights could be gleaned from my dislike of Ginny), but I sure had long-standing unrequited crushes that lasted that long and at that age in particular. I know there was a guy a year ahead of me in school that I had a huge crush on for 5 yrs or more (starting when I was 12). I don't think there's anything significant in the long-running nature of Ginny's crush. Then again, I still see more hero-worship than most people do, and as I said, I see very little of canon Ginny that I like so far. The Weasley most apt to die IMO? Ron. Ginny would be my 2nd pick. My next guess might be my favorite Weasley: Percy. Okay, back to laundering mildewed clothing. Yuck!!! Penny Florence (not a shipper) >From: Florence >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny's crush >Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:22:48 +0000 > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From driveslucy at aol.com Tue Jun 12 21:23:31 2001 From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:23:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is Head Boy? Message-ID: <92.15f3e20b.2857e253@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20647 Amy Z writes: > I bet this question will get more interesting to Our Heroes, and > therefore to us, when they're old enough to be picked or not. That > might stir up some interesting feelings. Will those of the Trio who > aren't so honored be jealous of those that are? or of whoever > becomes a prefect/HB/HG? Your post made me wonder how they are selected. Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if Draco were made Prefect? If Snape gets to choose, he just might. Luce From catz109 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 21:25:49 2001 From: catz109 at hotmail.com (catz109 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:25:49 -0000 Subject: Harry's death, wizards internet, Young love Message-ID: <9g61ct+llq3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20648 Ok, first I wanna clear something up. I doubt *very* much if Ron will die in the books. For one thing (can't remember the *exact* words) JKR said in a chat, something like "As if i would kill Harry's best friend" about Ron...which brings me to this point; if she's not gonna kill the Harry's best friend, then why would she kill Harry? Plus, I think if she did ever kill any or all of the trio, she'd have hoards of angry fans on her doorstep *vbeg* About the wizards internet...any ideas on what it could be? For those who *don't* know, JKR was asked in a chat if Harry was ever allowed to use internet on Dudley's PC. JKR said there was something better the wizards had, better and more fun than the internet. I can't *possibly* imagine what it could be though. About the giant thing...Disgusting is all I have to say on the matter! *g* Ron is so stupid, IMO. Hermione *obviously* likes him :) and I think he is just ignoring it. You know what boys are like, lol! ~*Rebekah*~ From devika261 at aol.com Tue Jun 12 21:57:26 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:57:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Directly from the manufacturers (was PoA Chapter 14 S... Message-ID: <119.3277fe.2857ea46@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20649 In a message dated 6/11/01 11:41:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 6/11/01 8:39:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > I > > went back and re-read this part to see if Snape identifies the Marauder's > Map > > as a map, but he does not. He refers to it simply as a piece of > parchment. > > I think this is further proof that Snape does not know, and did not know > in > > PoA, what the Map actually was. > > BTW, Snape's Grudge is definitely one of my all-time favorite chapters. > It's > > right up there with The Unexpected Task. :) > > Ah, but by GoF Snape *does* know about the Map, because at the end of > PoA he saw it in Lupin's office and saw Lupin going out to the willow > on it. And of course in GoF he must know Harry's stuck on the stair > case, that's why he is able to look straight at him. Snape, like > everyone else in the school, has to know where the trick steps are. > Snape refers to the Map as a parchment because he doesn't want to > give anything away to Moody. He knows Moody's lying about Potter not > being there, which he thinks is favoritism on Moody's part, but he > doesn't want to tangle with ol' Mad-Eye. > Very true! I can't believe I missed that! Sleep deprivation, probably... Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika261 at aol.com Tue Jun 12 22:44:08 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:44:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny's crush *correction* Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20650 In a message dated 6/12/01 2:41:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com writes: > For one thing, I am envisioning some sort of brief Ron/Hermione/Harry > triangle. Although, I don't think it would be more than a misunderstanding > on Ron/Hermione's part. I think that Ron will think that Harry and > Hermione like eachother, when they don't see eachother that way at all. I > think for a bit Ron will be a bit jealous, but it won't last. I think this > will happen in OOP. But they are still young, and very innocent as far as > those things go so it will be awhile. > I think it's very possible that Ron will suspect that something is going on between Harry and Hermione, when in actuality they are just friends. Victor Krum seemed to think that there was something going on, and even though Ron knows Harry and Hermione much better than Krum did, jealousy is rarely rational--and Ron is already jealous of Harry. Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika261 at aol.com Tue Jun 12 22:48:08 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:48:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is Head Boy? Message-ID: <3b.15ed46eb.2857f628@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20651 In a message dated 6/12/01 3:29:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, joym999 at aol.com writes: > In GoF, it is never mentioned who is Head Boy or, for that matter, > Head Girl that year. Is Cedric Head Boy? It is mentioned that he is > a prefect, but if he is so wonderful that he is picked as champion, > wouldnt it be logical that he was also picked as Head Boy? > IIRC, Cedric is in 6th year, not 7th, so he never has the chance to become Head Boy :( Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andromache815 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 23:02:37 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:02:37 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Snape References: <9g4g1o+ejts@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20652 Suzanna: but he has this God-like view of things: He lets them happen and observes without interfering, at least he does so within Hogwarts. He certainly reacts in a very different way when it comes to real evil, which means fighting Voldemort. But inside the school which is a closed system, he acts like God, watching benevolently, certainly not liking everything that happens, but not interfering, seeing everything from a much more elevated point of view. Yes. I see your point. Even his name, Albus, is indicative of a pure mind. However, his judgment is not perfect (Quirrel and Lockhart), and I do think Harry and Company get away with too much. It annoys me. Maybe that's why Snape is my favorite character. I can really identify with him. As for the way he treats his students, I'm sure Dumbledore is aware of it, but since the students don't seem to be too injured by it, he doesn't step in. But my concern is why Dumbledore waits until someone is actually injured or killed before taking action? Seems a bit wreckless. And he does seem to ignore poor Severus' concerns about the DADA appointees. I do feel, however, that they share a deep friendship, and that they would sacrifice their lives for each other. I'm sure Snape would. Vicky From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 23:07:49 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:07:49 -0000 Subject: DM specifically In-Reply-To: <8d.7daa546.2856d32d@aol.com> Message-ID: <9g67c5+jv98@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20653 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/11/01 8:15:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > linman6868 at a... writes: > > > > I hazard a guess as to why JKR goes out of her > > way to emphasize Draco's (and Lucius's, IIRC) paleness. ::getting > > out her ACME asbestos cloak -- thanks, Wile E.:: Which is that if > > anyone's got vampire heritage in HP, the Malfoys do. > > > > Hmmm...very interesting! Maybe this could explain the strange connection > between Snape and Lucius Malfoy... > Devika :) > Well, you know how I am. I can't seem to get enough of those vampires. Draco also exibits some fine flying skills. True, he is not as good as Harry, but then who is? 'Give it here!' Harry yelled, but Malfoy had leapt onto his broomstick and taken off. He hadn't been lying, he *could* fly well... The Malfoy family and vampire heritage...I don't find that too hard to believe. Koinonia From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 12 23:21:27 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:21:27 -0000 Subject: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: <9g5l30+1d3c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g685n+3it6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20654 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > I could see her being presumed dead for a while though...but > really, if you want Ron to be mad at Harry, there are lots of Weasleys > that could be killed off. How about Molly? > I think the most likely casaulties in Book Five will be Remus Lupin and the real Mad-Eye Moody. The former would certainly count as an admirer of Harry (and the latter is likely to become one). Sirius Black (another admirer) is also a possibility in Book Five - IMO, he too will perish at some point, but I doubt that Black and Lupin will die in the same book. One Marauder must survive long enough to avenge Wormtail! - CMC >From Motometusolum through Bulley and Cowley and Diggerydiggerydock down to bazeness's usual? - Finnegans Wake, p. 378 From mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 23:23:14 2001 From: mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com (Michi) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Has anyone thought of this? In-Reply-To: <20010612165104.99689.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010612232315.19410.qmail@web3202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20655 --- Melanie Brackney wrote: > > Okay there has been a great deal of talk on many > message boards, and a little here that one of > Harry's biggest admirers might die in the next book. A-ha!! > I have a hunch that it might be a bit of sarcasm on > JKR's part and that it might be snape(but part of me > doesn't believe that JKR would kill off Snape in the > 5th book. He's too interesting of a character, I > think). I also don't see it being the Colin Creevy, > mainly because I think that it would be way too easy > for her to kill off a character like Colin, that I > doubt would be missed all too much. As much of a cutie Colin is (I like 'im. He's such a cute little fanboy... him and his brother...) I have to agree with you here. Colin would not be readily missed. > Why wouldn't it > be Ginny? I think that she does have very deep > feelings for Harry, more than just a simple admirer. Hm... see, that's where I have a bit of a disagreement. Ginny has yet to really show her value as a character in the series. In my opinion, the way she's taken with Harry right now is very much hero worship, a girls crush. I may be stretching it here but maybe because she didn't get a good look at him when he first showed up at Platform 9 3/4 and because her mom didn't let her go up and see him (good one, Molly!) maybe that just made the hero-worship grow. That's not to say that she can't grow into really having a true affection for him. It's just right now she's still in the *pitterpatter* crush stage. At least, IMHO :) > She is suppossed to have a larger part in this next > book. Killing off Ginny, as sad as it would be, > would bring about some interesting dynamics in the > rest of the relationships. Of course, Ron would be > devistated. I think that in a very adolescent state > of mind Ron could even find a way of blaming Harry > for his death, especially if trying to help Harry to > some degree. I could definately see that. As we all saw in GoF the Ron-Harry relationship definately has gone through some strain and I would not be surpised if it continues to undergo more. So far, we've had Ron/Harry vs Hermione; Ron vs Harry; the on-going Hermione vs Ron (aren't they cute?)... I'm curious to see if there's ever going to be a time when Harry's going to be very opposed to Hermione. *coff* Personally, I see a love triangle between these three when they get old enough. ^-^ > Or maybe because we have seen that > sometimes love can make girls do crazy things, and > she might be more susceptible to Harry's not seeing > her as anything but a sister. I am not saying this > will happen, but i just wanted to see if anyone else > thought this to plausible. The thing I keep thinking back to is that her whole affection for Harry (and embarassment because of it) is what lured her to become Riddle's pawn in the first place. If that plotline got used again... well, I think JKR could definately find a different plot device ^^; In addition, I dunno... I've got my opinions as to who would die, if indeed JKR thinks it's time for one of the characters to kick the bucket. It's not a happy business, this whole Voldemort thing, that's for sure. IMHO... *scratchscratch* I think Dumbledore's gotta go at some point. Don't get me wrong, I love Dumbly-dorr and all that but seeing that he was the only wizard Voldemort was ever scared of, I'm sure Voldemort's going to find a way to off him. It's also a sure way to get Harry more anxious to get read of Voldemort. But in order to have a really lasting effect... *blink* I'd say Ron would actually be a candidate for being killed off as well. I admit that I'm not much of a Ron fan, but just analyzing it... Ron is Harry's best friend, Harry's first real friend. Killing off Ginny would certainly affect Harry but killing off Ron would have a much more lasting effect. Why Ron and not Hermione? Ron's a great side-kick, and unfortunately he is a side-kick, but as for having any real *use*... uuum. He's great for moral support (and that is more important than any power, really) which also ties in with killing him being a greater blow to Harry. Hermione has an actual use - she's the walking library of information that Harry can ask anytime - which should also make her a bit of a target but again... magical use vs. moral use - Harry needs moral support more than magical support. Just my 2 knuts :) Michi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 12 23:33:23 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:33:23 -0000 Subject: DM specifically In-Reply-To: <9g67c5+jv98@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g68s3+fc0d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20656 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > The Malfoy family and vampire heritage...I don't find that too hard > to believe. "I never drink--butterbeer." - CMC From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jun 13 00:22:32 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:22:32 -0000 Subject: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: <9g685n+3it6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g6bo8+6tuv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20657 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney > wrote: > > > I could see her being presumed dead for a while though...but > > really, if you want Ron to be mad at Harry, there are lots of > Weasleys > > that could be killed off. How about Molly? > > > > I think the most likely casaulties in Book Five will be Remus Lupin > and the real Mad-Eye Moody. The former would certainly count as an > admirer of Harry (and the latter is likely to become one). Sirius > Black (another admirer) is also a possibility in Book Five - IMO, he too will perish at some point, but I doubt that Black and Lupin will die in the same book. One Marauder must survive long enough to avenge Wormtail! > > - CMC > What depressing thoughts! I know that JKR specifically said that Remus would be back in Book 5, and did not say we'd see him after that. Is that a clue? I'm hoping he survives, but I too can see him as a potential casualty. I think that as the series progresses, we will lose characters who are of increasing importance emotionally to Harry. My bet for casualty candidate in Book 5 is a non-Ron Weasley. Harry likes all the Weasleys, so he would be affected by any of them dying. I think Sirius is also a casualty candidate, but I doubt JKR will kill him off just yet - he and Harry have the beginnings of a parent- child relationship and I just don't see this relationship being cut off too soon. Marianne, trying not to think grim thoughts From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jun 13 00:37:58 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:37:58 -0000 Subject: Has anyone thought of this? In-Reply-To: <9g5u95+fqdh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g6cl6+no6q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20658 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > > What I think most plausible is Fleur.> That's an interesting idea, as she is not one of the main characters in the stories. If anyone will die in OoP, I don't envision anyone who is really close to Harry, like the Weasleys (including Percy) or Sirius. As for later books, I'd put money on Snape and Dumbledore dying. I think Sirius dying is just too cruel - let Harry have a father figure! I also cannot imagine either Ron or Hermione dying, but unfortunately, I can see the two of them surviving Harry. That's the saddest thought of all. --jenny from ravenclaw***************************************** From floridian127 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 00:44:11 2001 From: floridian127 at yahoo.com (floridian127 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:44:11 -0000 Subject: Ageing Hermione In-Reply-To: <9g5413+6096@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g6d0r+hm8j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20659 There would be alot of side effects of time-turning. The need for more haircuts as well as meals and baths. [definitely baths]. Hermione showed the exhaustion of not getting an adequate amount of sleep. I don't see how the teachers would not have known. Floridian from message # 15774: Now what about the three Hermiones going to three classes at once? .... If she was gaining an extra 5-6 hours a day [1-2 hours example per class] wouldn't her hair and nails grow faster? That had to be noticeable too. Tabouli wrote: > > I was thinking about the other implications of doing an extra... five hours a day? She could well be several months older than the others after a year on the Time-Turner! Or doesn't it work like that? I cast forth the question for thoughts... > I would guess two hours a day, five days a week, forty weeks a year is more realistic, i.e. 400 hours, something under 3 weeks. Five hours a day would be about 1000 hours, or 6 weeks. At age 13 - 14, not a huge difference, though given Hermione's birthday, just enough to put her technically into the academic year above Harry's. > dfrankis wrote: > I think it must 'work' like that - Harry and Hermione would have gone on ageing. After all they have six hours of action- packed memories for a three hour period. I don't see how their body-clocks could rewind without wiping important memories when they use the time-turner. > > David From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jun 13 00:53:53 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:53:53 -0000 Subject: Why *does* Hermione like Ron? Message-ID: <9g6dj1+7m3q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20660 Okay, big question, here, but before I ask it, I must say that I am a Ron/Hermione shipper and a very big Harry/Ginny shipper. That said, here's my question: In GoF it appears that there *is* something going on between Hermione and Ron. Even JKR said as much on an online chat, something many here know. Now, while I see the tension between the two of them, and also see some sort of romance on the horizon, why is Hermione interested in Ron? I can't say it's the 'opposties attract' thing, because they are definitely not, IMO, opposites - their similar stubborness and tempers are examples of that. If you were Hermione, why would you want to get involved with Ron? Why would Ron be interested in Hermione as well? This has been bothering me for quite some time! --jenny from ravenclaw************************************* From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Wed Jun 13 01:09:40 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:09:40 -0000 Subject: Ginny's crush In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9g6egk+loi4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20661 hi! my name is heidi, and I write sacreligious things! :) 1. I don't see Ginny as crush-lorn over Harry at this point in canon. There's been NOTHING in book 4 to indicate that she is mooning over harry - she may've been during Book 2, but I do think that things like the valentine might've been done because Riddle was pushing her towards harry, by playing on the feelings she had anyway but might not've acted on and forcing her to do things like send that dwarf to recite at Harry's feet. 2. Florence wrote: <>> I think that even if she was, such a crush (i.e. 4 years old, from age 10ish to age 14ish) is not especially enduring or long lived, but maybe that's because I had a crush on the same boy from age 6 to 16ish, even though I was certainly crushing over (and even dating) other boys at the same time. Therefore, I don't see anything in the *length of time* thing to indicate any sort of *meant for each other* thing. 2a. If the length of time one has a crush is indicative of anything, then Harry's 2ish year long crush on Cho should recieve some Deep Spiritual Meaning as well, right? 3. Given Ginny's experiene during CoS with dark-haired, looks-like-harry Tom Riddle, if I were her, I would be avoiding the dark haired boys like the plague, and go for someone fair like, um, NEVILLE or, er, DRACO. From purplefanta at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 01:25:43 2001 From: purplefanta at yahoo.com (purplefanta at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:25:43 -0000 Subject: Pictures and Photos Message-ID: <9g6fen+i4ao@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20662 I was just rereading CoS again, and I was thinking an awful lot about the movement of the people within painted pictures and portraits. IMHO, pictures are always of actual people, while portraits are usually of fictional characters. Therefore, the people within a photograph may move around, even exhibit signs of their true personalities. However, the people within the photographs are mere shadows of the true person. This why Harry's photos of his parents merely wave, rather than tell him all about his family and such. OTOH, painted pictures have no "other" identity. They are who they are, giving them a much more defined personality, allowing them to have feelings and to think. This also explains their tendency to move around. Of course, there is the issue of the past headmasters moving around. I believe that they still only "represent" their true selves and do not have distinct personalities. Another thought is that the past headmasters are dead and therefore allowed to have a more distict personality- there is no "real" person to contend with. Just my take on this, I know we have discussed this numerous times before. Melissa (A horrible speller, please excuse) BTW, Is it just me or does Lockhart get more annoying with each read... what a conceited little... From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 13 01:34:59 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:34:59 -0000 Subject: Has anyone thought of this? In-Reply-To: <20010612232315.19410.qmail@web3202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g6g03+p5qe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20663 Hello All!!!! > > As much of a cutie Colin is (I like 'im. He's such a > cute little fanboy... him and his brother...) I have > to agree with you here. Colin would not be readily > missed. I don't know about anyone else, but I can't STAND the Creevy boys...they annoy the heck out of me. They just make my skin crawl, and I'm not sure why. Evertyime they come on the page, I'm like "Oh, for crying out loud!" I don't know why I dislike them though! I have no idea, cus they seem like such nice characters. Anyone have any guesses why I dislike them? What's anyone elses thory??? Hugs Jamieson From bohners at pobox.com Wed Jun 13 01:51:42 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:51:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Has anyone thought of this? References: <9g6g03+p5qe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <003101c0f3ab$6cd17f40$638f23cf@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20664 > I don't know about anyone else, but I can't STAND the Creevy > boys...they annoy the heck out of me. They just make my skin crawl, > and I'm not sure why. Colin annoys me: I don't blame Harry a bit for avoiding him. I was practically grinding my teeth every time he showed up in CoS, and it was a relief when he got Petrified and I didn't have to listen to his "All right, Harry?" any more. Dennis, on the other hand, I adore. Not only is he outrageously cute, but anybody who thinks falling in the lake and getting tossed out again by a giant squid is a thrilling experience is somebody I've got to respect. And although Colin rhapsodizes about Harry to Dennis, we have no idea what Dennis thinks of Harry. I really don't think he's going to hero-worship him like Colin does, though. He seems more likely to just go his own way and do his own thing (which appears to consist of getting into every possible form of trouble, with the best will in the world). I look forward to hearing more of his escapades in future. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 02:07:54 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010613020754.71930.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20665 --- JamiDeise at aol.com wrote: > I don't have a clue who's going to die in book 5 ... > but I think Dumbledore > will die in 6, and Ron in 7. > > Jami > My DH is of the opinion(mind you his a bit bloody minded sometimes) that Voldemort needs to target Dumbledore. As he put it, "He's the powerful good guy, sooner or later he's got to go and the sooner he does the sooner the good guys are weakened." IMHO it's a kid's series(even if the grownups are fasinated by it) why would JKR make it any darker than it has to be? Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 02:09:38 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Has anyone thought of this? In-Reply-To: <9g6cl6+no6q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613020938.85089.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20666 As for later books, I'd put money on Snape and Dumbledore dying. I think Sirius dying is just too cruel - let Harry have a father figure! I also cannot imagine either Ron or Hermione dying, but unfortunately, I can see the two of them surviving Harry. That's the saddest thought of all. --jenny from ravenclaw***************************************** JKR places a LOT of focus on Harry's need for a real family. If he would loose Sirius (or Molly/Arthur) I could see him going off the rocker..it would be this point where he would loose all restraints against him and go after Voldie...for good! Not that he doesn't already have a reason too do it...but I just see that happening. Ron, I really like that idea that was said on this list that Ron's sacrifice on the chess board is actually foreshadowing something a similar sacrifice in the future...Congrats on whoever thought of that...and that is definitely one thing that ron does better than Harry or Hermione..he plays a very good chess game. MElanie --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 02:15:50 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How many Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: <9g5mke+bafj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613021550.7352.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20667 --- seimmud at hotmail.com wrote: > I don't know if this was mentioned before, but I > wonder how many > Death Eaters there are. > > Before I read GoF, I thought that there were > hundreds or thousands of > Death Eaters (in relation with about 6000 wizards > and witches in > Great Britain). But when the DE appeared after > Voldemorts "rebirth" > they made a circle around Voldemort. There were only > a few DE, some > are death or absent. Voldemort didn't say anything > to some DE, but I > don't think that there were so many DE unmentioned. > And the circle > cannot be so big for some hundred DEs. > And: Are they all the DEs of the entired world? Or > only the DE of GB? > IMO, they should be all DEs because Voldemort wanted > to show all his > followers that he is back. > > What is your opinion about that? > > Katja > > I think that Voldemort is only a Great Britain phenomonon so concivably he only has followers in that area(yes I know he was in Albainia but he was in hiding and VERY weak so I don't see him having gotten any more followers in that time). Therefore those that were in the circle would be it. I don't see him has having more than 30-40 DEs after all once he has one member of the family as a DE technically he has the whole family. My DH says he can see Voldemort using Great Britain as a launching pad to taking the rest of the world. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 02:27:31 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Has anyone thought of this? In-Reply-To: <9g6g03+p5qe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613022731.12680.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20668 Anyone have any guesses why I dislike them? What's anyone elses thory??? Colin creevy scares the heck out of me..I mean seriously. I was glad when something happened to him in Chamber of Secrets...I don't know why I feel this way..but I just don't have a good feeling about him...I think it is something in the writing of his character..he just seems too extreme to be a natural, enthusiastic character. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika261 at aol.com Wed Jun 13 02:31:51 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:31:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny's crush Message-ID: <9c.f561ba9.28582a97@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20669 In a message dated 6/12/01 9:54:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu writes: > I don't see Ginny as crush-lorn over Harry at this point in canon. > There's been NOTHING in book 4 to indicate that she is mooning over > harry Personally, I think that Ginny still has a crush on Harry, but I don't think that it is the same kind of crush she had in CoS. Ginny may still have feelings for Harry, as evidenced by her disappointment at not being able to go with him to the Yule Ball, but she's definitely becoming more mature, as some of you have pointed out. I think that there are two possibilities. Her earlier feelings may eventually grow into something deeper (or they may have already). However, I think it is equally possible that her crush will wear off and she will come to see Harry as the boy who saved her life and her brother's best friend who has become an honorary member of her family--but not as the object of her affection. This second possibility, IMO, brings up another interesting question: If Ginny shows to Harry that she is no longer interested in him, will he be bothered by this? (*prepares to duck curses from anti-Harry/Ginny shippers*) Harry has gotten used to the fact that Ginny likes him, just as he has gotten used to being famous. Both of these things embarassed him before, but now he seems to have accepted them. Perhaps Harry is becoming more mature as well. But still...I can't help but wonder if Harry is beginning to enjoy being famous, or having Ginny's admiration. He certainly doesn't get that kind of attention with the Dursleys. It seems as though he might miss it if it were gone. Devika (who also thinks that those Potter men might just like redheads :)) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com Wed Jun 13 02:32:42 2001 From: lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com (Lyda Clunas) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 02:32:42 -0000 Subject: Why *does* Hermione like Ron? In-Reply-To: <9g6dj1+7m3q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g6jca+li82@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20670 Jenny wrote: > If you were Hermione, why would you want to get involved with Ron? > Why would Ron be interested in Hermione as well? Well, with Ron, I think it's almost a territorial issue (for lack of a better word). Ron *does* like Hermione, but it takes someone else (Krum) for him to actually take notice of that fact. He gets insanely jealous, then, although he still won't really admit it ("completely missed the point"). Why does he like her? He might tease her about it, but I think he really admires her intelligence. She has some humour, she laughs at his jokes. She has a ton of loyalty and skill. She is willing to give everything in order to help Ron and Harry when they need it. As to Hermione liking Ron: I'm of the opinion that she *didn't* like Ron until she figured out that he liked her. Then, it sort of became a case of "Oh, well, if he likes *me*, then..." There's a lot to Ron that a girl could like though. Great sense of humour. Determination. Friendliness. The downside, of course, is the emotional maturity factor and the lack of communication skills, both of which would cause Hermione a great deal of trouble. Lyda From devika261 at aol.com Wed Jun 13 02:36:28 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:36:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny's crush Message-ID: <41.caf422a.28582bac@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20671 In a message dated 6/12/01 9:54:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu writes: > Given Ginny's experiene during CoS with dark-haired, > looks-like-harry Tom Riddle, if I were her, I would be avoiding the > dark haired boys like the plague, and go for someone fair like, um, > NEVILLE or, er, DRACO. > Ginny and Draco...now that would be interesting. But then, she did go with Neville to the Yule Ball (although Neville actually wanted to go with Hermione...and Ginny wanted to go with Harry...who wanted to go with Cho, who went with Cedric, who was being pursued by Fleur, whom Ron asked, when he really wanted to go with Hermione, with whom Neville wanted to go...sorry, I couldn't resist--it's all just so cute!) Devika :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 02:35:50 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 02:35:50 -0000 Subject: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: <20010612181543.56103.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g6ji6+pcb2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20672 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber wrote: > "DON'T THINK OF IT AS DYING, said Death. JUST THINK OF IT AS LEAVING EARLY TO AVOID THE RUSH." > - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" What an appropriate signature for this topic. I have a feeling that there will be a huge massacre in book 7 and not many of the middle generation (The Marauders, Snape, McGonagall, Hagrid etc.) will survive. So whoever dies in Book 5 would probably 'just leaving early to avoid the rush'. Can't see Snape dying in Book 5 though because of that persistent rumour about his redemption in book 7; JKR said that Lupin has a huge part in book 7, so he can't die either. Still leaves us with plenty to choose from -- how about Dobby? He fits the description of 'a huge fan of Harry'. Since we are on the topic of death, what do you guys make of the JKR frequent hinting of Harry's Death by the end of BK. 7? Red Herring? Preparing us for the worst? From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 02:46:51 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Has anyone thought of this? In-Reply-To: <9g6g03+p5qe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613024651.23029.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20673 They haunt and stalk Harry! We don't like them either, my boys and I understand why Harry wants to hide from them. Colin is a stalker, he is just about everywhere Harry is! He and his brother my be nice boys, but they seem to be everywhere! That is kind of creepy behavior.Anybody else feel differently about them? Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts --- Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve wrote: > Hello All!!!! > > > > > As much of a cutie Colin is (I like 'im. He's such > a > > cute little fanboy... him and his brother...) I > have > > to agree with you here. Colin would not be readily > > missed. > > > I don't know about anyone else, but I can't STAND > the Creevy > boys...they annoy the heck out of me. They just make > my skin crawl, > and I'm not sure why. > > Evertyime they come on the page, I'm like "Oh, for > crying out loud!" I > don't know why I dislike them though! I have no > idea, cus they seem > like such nice characters. > > Anyone have any guesses why I dislike them? What's > anyone elses > thory??? > > Hugs > Jamieson > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 02:48:08 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why *does* Hermione like Ron? In-Reply-To: <9g6jca+li82@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613024808.98467.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20674 --- Lyda Clunas wrote: > There's a lot to Ron > that a girl could like though. Great sense of > humour. Determination. > Friendliness. The downside, of course, is the > emotional maturity > factor and the lack of communication skills, both of > which would > cause Hermione a great deal of trouble. > > Lyda > > Aren't most boys lacking in emotional maturity until they get to about 25? Or more? :D Seriously Ron does seem like he would have a l+ot to offer a girl, if he can ever tell her that he likes her that is. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From golden_faile at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 02:50:10 2001 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's Birthday. Are the games Proof enough? In-Reply-To: <9g33d6+uk7q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613025010.61920.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20675 --- rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com wrote: > Hey there, > > I need to find as much evidence from the books-any > and all in the > CANON-that Harry's birthday falls on July 31. In all of the Harry Potter games I own, In case of a tie the player with the birthday closest to Harry's goes first. The date is definitely July 31st. Hope that helped your case! Laila __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From devika261 at aol.com Wed Jun 13 02:54:36 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:54:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Has anyone thought of this? Message-ID: <102.47d15ae.28582fec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20676 In a message dated 6/12/01 10:36:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com writes: > JKR places a LOT of focus on Harry's need for a real family. If he would > loose Sirius (or Molly/Arthur) I could see him going off the rocker..it > would be this point where he would loose all restraints against him and go > after Voldie...for good! Not that he doesn't already have a reason too do > it...but I just see that happening. I hope that doesn't happen. I think that if Harry allows himself to be consumed by anger, or a desire for vengeance, and goes after Voldemort for those reasons, then he will meet his downfall, whether he defeats Voldemort or not. Sorry to bring up another Star Wars parallel, but this reminds me of the part in Return of the Jedi where Luke wants to kill the emperor but refuses to give in to his hatred. If he gives in, even though the emperor will be dead, the dark side will have won. I don't think that Harry will be the one to destroy Voldemort, no matter how much he hates him. I think Harry is better than that. As for what I think about Sirius dying...well, I'd rather not think about it. No! Not my Sirius! Quite apart from what his death would do to Harry (which would be terrible in itself), it would just be incredibly unfair to Sirius. Yes, I know, life isn't fair, but still, hasn't the poor man been through enough? Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From viola_1895 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 03:09:33 2001 From: viola_1895 at yahoo.com (Julie (a.k.a. Viola)) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:09:33 -0000 Subject: Ginny's crush In-Reply-To: <9c.f561ba9.28582a97@aol.com> Message-ID: <9g6lhe+53tn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20677 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/12/01 9:54:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... writes: > > > > I don't see Ginny as crush-lorn over Harry at this point in canon. > > There's been NOTHING in book 4 to indicate that she is mooning over > > harry > > Personally, I think that Ginny still has a crush on Harry, but I don't think > that it is the same kind of crush she had in CoS. Ginny may still have > feelings for Harry, as evidenced by her disappointment at not being able to > go with him to the Yule Ball, But is it really disappointment? Harry certainly thinks it is, but Harry often makes assumptions that are later proved wrong. We also assume that the Valentine Harry receives in CoS is from Ginny - I'm of the opinion that it wasn't. Her discomfort in that scene (which Harry interpreted as embarassment over the Valentine) is later revealed to be fear over discovering that Harry had the diary. The only person who says definitively that the Valentine was from Ginny is Draco, and why should we believe him? Then again, I like to think that there's quite a bit more going on under the surface with Ginny than we've seen thus far. I've got a few pet theories - but the bottom line is that Harry sees Ginny as "Ron's kid sister with a crush on him" and interprets all her actions accordingly. Whether he's right remains to be seen. ^_^ From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 03:12:30 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: <9g6ji6+pcb2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613031230.17553.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20678 Since we are on the topic of death, what do you guys make of the JKR frequent hinting of Harry's Death by the end of BK. 7? Red Herring? Preparing us for the worst? Her frequent hinting at ths is the main reason why I can't see her killing him off. She likes to play with these kids heads...is he gonna die? well it's still anyones guess..I would bet no..but then that is just because I don't think she would tell everyone if he was going to die. Dobby is another possible death.. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andromache815 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 20:20:12 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:20:12 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] H, Basilisk, Krum, Snape; Neville/Colin References: <17.16cc6e68.284fc0c1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20679 Jami: We all know Hermione is brilliant. But almost all of the time, when faced with a choice, she goes "brave" over "smart" ... lying for Harry and Ron over the troll incident in PS/SS, confronting the basilisk herself in CoS, etc. I don't think she purposely looked for the basilisk. It was probably an accident. Lyda: That depends on if she visits him in Bulgaria, but I got the impression that she turned down his offer. I bet her parents wouldn't be too keen on the idea anyway; I know my mother would *never* have let me date an 18-year-old guy when I was 14, and she'd have had a heart attack if some an older guy asked me to come stay with him in a different country. I think a long-distance friendship might continue, but if her glares to Fleur Delacour in GoF are any indication, I think she has her mind on a certain someone else. Which, I might add, is kind of ironic, since Ron seems to be so much less mature than she. Definitely. I think she and Harry are better suited. However, Harry doesn't seem to have romantic interest in her. As for her glares to Fleur, couldn't it just be because she looks down on her and dislikes her as a person? Poor Viktor. He seems like a nice guy. I'd like to see more of him. I suppose a long distance friendship could last, but I feel sorry for the poor owls who have to deliver their letters. I'd like to think her family vacationed in Bulgaria so she could look up Krum, but it remains to be seen whether she did or not. It was never mentioned, strangely enough. I mean, Harry and Ron didn't ask about what Viktor wanted at the end of GoF. Lyda: So, your saying that he says "I see no difference" because he doesn't want to be racist? Forgive the snort (*snort*), but if he didn't want to appear to be making an off-color remark that might implicate him, why couldn't he just say "Hospital wing" and leave it at that? 'Cause he wants to keep up appearances with his Slyths, and simply out of petty malice, probably. Of course, when she ran off, presumably to the hospital wing, he didn't move to stop her. I don't see any logical reason for his hatred of Hermione, though. I can see how Ron would get on his nerves, and perhaps Hermione's know-it-all attitude annoys him, but that's no reason to hate her. However, I notice that after Snape made that cruel comment, her eyes filled with tears. I know she was humiliated, but was she hurt as well? And if so, this speaks a lot for her maturity. Maybe there's a part of her that sympathizes with or pities him. She seems to be the only one of the trio who is inclined to trust him. Catlady: I think Harry IS being too rude to poor Colin, the way he just brushes him off all the time, and am astonished that Colin has not yet shown any hurt feelings about it. On the day in PoA when Harry was excluded from the Hogmeade outing, Harry was just as mean to poor Neville, who was being nice when he suggested they could play Exploding Snap or work on their homework together. Agreed. But I guess Harry was upset about not being allowed to go with Ron and Hermione. Still, he ought to have told Neville he was feeling bad about it, and that he wasn't in the mood for company. Both Neville and Colin are very strong people, to deal with sorrow and hurt feelings so meekly. I'd be furious with Harry. Catlady: No. It was not obvious. Even tho' I got the werewolf idea as soon as I saw the name Lupin, I didn't figure out that his Boggart was the moon and I didn't realize that his sick day was connected to the moon phase. Yeah, when I saw Lupin, I thought he had something to do with wolves, and I didn't notice those things you mentioned either. Of course, this is because we weren't given the information to make the deduction of his lycanthropy. We weren't told about the moon phases, and I don't think he was shown to be ill every month in the course of the book... Vicky From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 13 03:24:39 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:24:39 -0000 Subject: SHIP:(?) Re: Why *does* Hermione like Ron? In-Reply-To: <20010613024808.98467.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g6mdn+gqr8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20680 And exactly *why* is the title of this message appropriate? I happen to think that Hermione doesn't like Ron, and that just throws your question off a bit, eh? Lyda wrote: > > There's a lot to Ron > > that a girl could like though. Great sense of > > humour. Determination. > > Friendliness. The downside, of course, is the > > emotional maturity > > factor and the lack of communication skills, both of > > which would > > cause Hermione a great deal of trouble. --Oh yeah lots to like! Someone pointed out that they are both stubborn, Hermione can be insufferable at times, and Ron's certainly a hot head. They'd get along "splendidly" (note sarcasm). Not that a H/H relationship would be perfect either, though since this is my personal ship I'll let someone else (from the "other" side) get into the particulars if they wish. I know Jo said that something is going on between Ron and Hermione, but I don't see that as saying that Ron's feelings are mutual. Just that the feelings of at least one person are clear to both. Hermione may not return Ron's feelings, but she does recognise them. I don't see that Hermione reciprocates Ron's feelings. I also don't see how, after the painfully obvious Yule Balll incident and everything else that happens in GoF Ron still doesn't realise he has feelings for Hermione. Yes he's emotionally immature at times and we don't know for a fact either way, but he can't be *that* obtuse. Hmmm...am I trying to start a shipping debate? Perhaps (Hey! Stop pelting me with rotten fruit!), but I just want to know why you think we can begin to dissect the particulars of Hermione's feelings for Ron, before clarifying whether she has them. Scott The lone H/H shipper? Penny come back soon! From tmayor at mediaone.net Wed Jun 13 03:38:59 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:38:59 -0000 Subject: Who dies in Bk 5? Dobby! In-Reply-To: <9g5l30+1d3c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g6n8j+s7gu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20681 I posted this theory awhile back in some other thread, but since I'm too lazy to look for it, here it is again: someone had said that JKR said a "special fan" of Harry's would die in Book 5, and I think that "special" friend is Dobby. Reason? Barty Crouch Jr. is gone (or gonzo, to be more technically correct, since he is presumably alive but soulless), but Winky is still around. She knows way too much about Voldy & Co. and is at Hogwarts, so the Dark side tries to wipe her out. Dobby comes to her rescue and dies in the process. Harry feels enormous guilt that his No. 1 fan died for him and fear that Voldemort is closing in on him by murdering those closer and closer to him (notwithstanding his parents of course). Plotwise, it's a way for JKR to tighten the noose without giving everyone heart attacks by offing a Weasley or anyone emotionally at the center of the books. ~Rosmerta who doesn't mean to offend Dobby fans by insinuating he's not at the center....but IMO he's not! From tmayor at mediaone.net Wed Jun 13 03:47:30 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:47:30 -0000 Subject: The Creevys (was Re: Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: <20010613024651.23029.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g6noi+u6s1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20682 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Wanda Mallett wrote: > > They haunt and stalk Harry! ... That is kind of creepy > behavior.Anybody else feel differently about them? > and Jamieson wrote I don't know about anyone else, but I can't STAND > > the Creevy > > boys...they annoy the heck out of me. Agreed on both accounts, they're annoying and creepy. But I felt from the very first time we met Colin and then his brother that were both already wearing the big E on their foreheads for "Expendable." If JKR needs to up the body count quick, they'd be pretty much first on the list since they're innocents but incidentals. I'll be shocked (and maybe even a little disappointed) if they're around by Book 7. ~Rosmerta From nosillaps13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 03:49:32 2001 From: nosillaps13 at yahoo.com (Allison ) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:49:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's age Message-ID: <9g6nsc+qn8s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20683 OK, I'm new so I don't know if this has been addressed or not; if it has, please don't kill me. My question is about Harry's age. His birthday is in July. So is he older or younger then everyone else in his grade? Hermione's birthday is in September, so she's either a few months younger or almost a year older. So, which is it? I would guess JKR would make Harry a bit younger, but that's just me. So if anyone knows, let me know. Also, does it ever say in the books when Ron's birthday is? Is he older or younger then Harry? Thanks! Allison From vderark at bccs.org Wed Jun 13 04:07:22 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:07:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's age In-Reply-To: <9g6nsc+qn8s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g6otq+7tv8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20684 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Allison " wrote: > OK, I'm new so I don't know if this has been addressed or not; if it > has, please don't kill me. > > My question is about Harry's age. His birthday is in July. So is he > older or younger then everyone else in his grade Harry was born on July 31, 1980. Ron was born on March 1, 1980, so he's five months older than Harry. Hermione was born on September 19th. I believe that she was born in 1980 as well and that she turned 11 a couple of weeks after she started at Hogwarts, but others feel that the cutoff is September 1 so she must have been born in 1979. The books don't actually say this, however. There is no indication in the canon as to which of these--1979 or 1980--is correct. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon which includes all canonical information about the characters http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Jun 13 04:07:50 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:07:50 -0000 Subject: The Worst of All Possible Wolves (filk) Message-ID: <9g6oum+6k05@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20685 The Worst of All Possible Wolves (from PoA, Chap 9) (To the tune of The Best of All Possible Worlds, from Candide) Dedicated to Lisa THE SCENE: The Dark Arts' classroom. The third-year GRYFFINDORS are in attendance. HARRY rushes in late only to discover that a "Sub" is teaching today .. HARRY (rushing in, speaking): Sorry I'm late, Professor Lupin, I?' SNAPE (music) Potter, for you this news is distressin' Lupin's not here ? so I'll teach this lesson HARRY (music) He always disses the other professors who teach Defense Against Dark Arts, for that is the topic he'd preach SNAPE Open your textbooks, to the very end of your book Today at werewolves we all shall be taking a look Kindly contrast true wolves and werewolves HERMIONE The former are found where ever there are wolves The latter are humans who monthly sprout abundant hair They are Dark Creatures and thrive best in bestial lairs HARRY Objection! Where is Lupin? SNAPE Professor Lupin is unwell, and inasmuch as I can tell So far behind This class I find It does confirm my worst fears: You know less than the first years Incompetent teachers at Hogwarts have always been a curse here Third-years who study Grindylows? To count one's fingers and one's toes Would be ten times the puzzle Now, Potter, please self-muzzle. HERMIONE Werewolves are tied to a lunar cycle Once one is bit, not even Nyquil Can prevent their entry into a furrier phase SNAPE Five points that costs you, Miss Granger, your hand was not raised. RON Objection! Let her respond! SNAPE I thought this class was taught by me, But it seems that Sir Ron Weasley Has some great need To supersede My carefully crafted lecture At least I so conjecture So let me now make evident The points that I'll deduct, sir. I state it's now my current plan To have you scrubbing out bed pans As you serve your Detention So, what else have you to mention? Werewolves are wolves, have been and will be CHORUS OF GRYFFINDOR STUDENTS Werewolves are wolves who would love to kill me SNAPE This is the reason that werewolves so fear the full moon (And, have you noticed, tonight we have here the full moon) Homo Homini Lupus! FYI! CHORUS Homo Homini Lupus! SNAPE & CHORUS They're the worst of all possible Possible possible Wolves! Homo Homini Lupus! SNAPE F! Y! I! - CMC (Author's Note: The original song has Dr. Pangloss, Voltaire's brilliant personification of mindless optimism, leading a brief canon on the phrase Quod Erat Demonstrandum (Q.E.D): Thus It Is Demonstrated, the triumphal cry of the logician. Here, I have Snape substitute another well-known Latin epigram, Homo Homini Lupus: Man is to man a wolf.) From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 04:08:21 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's age In-Reply-To: <9g6nsc+qn8s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613040821.97649.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20686 Harry will be 15 in OOF..I figured this out because he turned 11 on July 31 in SS/PS...so that would make him 12 in COS...13 in POA..and 14 in GOF...and if my calculations are correct he will graduate when he is just 17...most are probably 18 when they graduate...Harry is just a youngin..summer birthday... However, in reality since people have figured it out that Harry was in fact born in 1980...he will be 21 on July 31...that is if he is still alive... --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 04:27:45 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:27:45 -0000 Subject: SHIP:(?) Re: Why *does* Hermione like Ron? In-Reply-To: <9g6mdn+gqr8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g6q41+toj0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20687 Scott:"I know Jo said that something is going on between Ron and Hermione, but I don't see that as saying that Ron's feelings are mutual. Just that the feelings of at least one person are clear to both. Hermione may not return Ron's feelings, but she does recognise them." JKR did say there's something going on, but it's *RON* who doesn't know it yet ['typical boy', JKR says] meaning it's Hermione who "knows." This is the opposite of what most of us have thought. After that, I'm lost. I have no idea what attracts Hermione to Ron. It's too easy for us to forget that she's only fourteen too. Scott:"I don't see that Hermione reciprocates Ron's feelings. I also don't see how, after the painfully obvious Yule Balll incident and everything else that happens in GoF Ron still doesn't realise he has feelings for Hermione. Yes he's emotionally immature at times and we don't know for a fact either way, but he can't be *that* obtuse." See above. Apparently he is that thick, a typical fourteen year old male oaf. From banjoken at optonline.net Wed Jun 13 04:30:29 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:30:29 -0000 Subject: Killing off Characters Message-ID: <9g6q95+evto@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20688 I've noticed that a lot of the discussion here, particularly recently, revolves around who's going to die and when. I understand that some important characters will die, and it will have a great impact on the story. It seems to me, though, that JKR has to leave most of the characters alive to keep the story going for another three years. Maybe I just don't want to see a lot of deaths, but I don't think there are going to be nearly as many as a lot of people seem to think. I mean, can anybody think of a character that nobody has suggested will die at some point? On a completely unrelated topic: Somebody mentioned that in the HP games they have, the person who's birthday is closest to Harry's goes first. I've got to get some of these games! My bday just happens to be July 31, so I'd win automatically! :) Ken From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 04:46:18 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:46:18 -0000 Subject: Killing off Characters In-Reply-To: <9g6q95+evto@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g6r6q+mgre@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20689 Ken:"I've noticed that a lot of the discussion here, particularly recently, revolves around who's going to die and when. I understand that some important characters will die, and it will have a great impact on the story." This is the Reverse Book Effect, or "Priori Librum," which holds that we are all expecting the next book to be the same as the last one we read -- you know, the one JKR said would have a major death in it. This Book 5 is going to be hard on JKR, because it's too early to get into the crisis of the battle and therefore too early to kill off central characters wholesale. The deaths I've heard that I think have the best chance of happening are Dobby's, Ginny's, and Percy's. I think Hagrid will stick around until Book Six or Seven. As far as the games go, check with people here before buying one. they've been disappointing. All of the merchandise was a rush job, IMO. From jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net Wed Jun 13 05:31:14 2001 From: jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net (Jennye & Michael Woolf) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:31:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: <9g6bo8+6tuv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0f3ca$11aa9830$d8094a42@Dexter> No: HPFGUIDX 20690 << What depressing thoughts! I know that JKR specifically said that Remus would be back in Book 5, and did not say we'd see him after that. Is that a clue? I'm hoping he survives, but I too can see him as a potential casualty. I think that as the series progresses, we will lose characters who are of increasing importance emotionally to Harry. My bet for casualty candidate in Book 5 is a non-Ron Weasley. Harry likes all the Weasleys, so he would be affected by any of them dying. [Jennye Laws-Woolf] As I was reading GoF the 2nd time and was reading the description of the clock, I couldn't help but think that she was foreshadowing a time when "mortal peril" was going to be used to describe at least one of the Weasley's at one point. I'm thinking Percy too, although I really do like him. Hey, maybe it'll be a Dursley thus proving that maybe Harry isn't so terribly safe there as was previously thought so that poor Harry won't ever have to go back. (FWIW, I don't think that will happen) Jennye [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From simon at hp.inbox.as Wed Jun 13 08:21:56 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:21:56 +0100 Subject: Ginny's crush In-Reply-To: <9g6lhe+53tn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20691 Heidi: <<>> Devika: <<>> Julia: <<>> It could still be disappointment, but possibly not caused by her fancying Harry. In having to turn down Harry as a person to go to the ball with she has also turned down going with 'The Boy Who Lived' and a Hogwarts Champion for the Triwizard Tournament. She has missed out on sitting up with the other champions, their partners and the teachers. She has missed the opportunity to be part of the centre of attention for that evening. I believe that, even though Ginny is set apart in the Weasley family because she is the only girl, she must still get a similar feeling to Ron about being 'just another Weasley with red hair and freckles'. Ron is looking for something to set him above his brothers and quite likely Ginny is similarly after something that will set her apart from them as well. Simon -- Dr. Simon Branford: "He was slim, if not a bit gangly, and had sparking blue eyes hidden behind plain black thin-framed spectacles. His dark blonde hair flopped lazily over his ears and he absently smoothed it down as he entered my hospital room. He was quite fetching indeed." - Not Quite Paradise Chapter 6: Ghost of a Romance by George Weasley's Girlfriend, (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tabouli at unite.com.au Wed Jun 13 08:47:41 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:47:41 +1000 Subject: Of Crushes, Kickers of Buckets and Creeveys Message-ID: <003401c0f3e5$c137e4e0$2890aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 20692 AARGH, look at all the comments I've snipped! This list is starting to take me over... Amy said: > I agree. The Yule Ball was about all I could take of Hermione Goes Gorgeous. You know, I actually liked Hermione Goes Gorgeous, and since reading people's grumbles, I'm trying to analyse why. It may have been as a backlash against the "a woman only has a right to either brains or beauty" argument. The ol' Just World Hypothesis, *no-one* is allowed to have it all, it's not fair, which is why anyone who appears to have too much in a desirable domain (beauty, brains, money, talent, etc.) has to be very careful, lest other people get out their daggers and rip him/her to shreds to find some terrible character flaws or gaping voids in other domains or prove that they're Not So Great After All to make them feel better about themselves. Nasty. This, alas, is so common in Australia that it's been given a name, the Tall Poppy Syndrome. Another possibility (or another dimension of my reaction) is that Hermione copped a lot of rudeness about her looks in GoF, from Snape, Pansy, Draco, Parvati, Rita and so forth, and I felt a bit of "so there!" on her behalf when she showed 'em at the Yule Ball. Hassling an adolescent girl about her looks is very very cruel. And good on her even more for not having her head turned by it afterward! >From JKR's point of view, however, Gorgeous Granger was a great gimmick to fuel tension between her and Ron for future plot development... Steve said: > Her reaction to that disappointment isn't that of a "silly schoolgirl," however. She doesn't pout or try to send a message to Harry that she would have loved to have gone. She doesn't do any of the flirty games things that girls her age do (and I see endlessly in school where I teach). In fact, her demeanor in that whole scene is remarkably mature. B added: > I think that it's telling of her advancing maturity that we get the idea Ginny *doesn't* rush off to cry into her pillow when she finds out Harry asked Cho to the dance. Isn't the Stiff Upper Lip pretty characteristic of the English/Magic upper class? (which surely the Weasleys are, even if they're poor and struggling. Old money, though not much of it!). Ginny's already demonstrated countless times that's she's deeply embarrassed by her unrequited love for Harry with blushing and attacks of clumsiness and fleeing to hide her face in shame: surely her failure to pout or flirt or show strong emotions in public is much more to do with personality and culture/class than maturity in this instance. She did stiffen when she heard about Cho, and we don't know whether she secretly cried into her pillow afterwards. I'm not saying that Ginny's particularly *immature*, but I don't see her reactions in that scene as evidence of her maturity! She's certainly kind and compassionate, and can keep secrets, but I don't think those things are particularly related to maturity either. Hey, I've met 10 year olds who are kind and can keep secrets and 50 year olds who are compassionless and hopelessly indiscreet! On the subject of cultural differences in emotional expression (hey, back here again!), I read an article about HP in France which said they had trouble conveying the bizarre notion that sex and romance could be the source of such embarrassment to French children... Heidi quite rightly pointed out that: > I think that even if she was, such a crush (i.e. 4 years old, from age 10ish to age 14ish) is not especially enduring or long lived You tell 'em, Heidi. I had a crush on someone from the age of 9 to the age of 13, and a crush on someone else from 14 to 23! None of this fickle stuff for me, *my* love is enduring... Devika speculated: > I think it's very possible that Ron will suspect that something is going on between Harry and Hermione, when in actuality they are just friends. Yeah, when it finally dawns on Ron that he wants Hermione, I wouldn't be surprised if he suspects that she prefers Harry (like everyone else in the world seems to). Cue a sulky and embarrassed Ron who prickles for weeks before Harry figures out what's going on with the help of Hermione and initiates a massively awkward conversation explaining that he's not interested in her with Ron, after which Ron and Hermione shyly tiptoe together. Vicky mused: > Albus, is indicative of a pure mind. However, his judgment is not perfect (Quirrel and Lockhart) I always did think that hiring an incompetent like Lockhart for a subject as important as DADA for a year was a trifle irresponsible. All the same, JKR once said that Dumbledore hired Snape despite his nastiness because he believes that school should provide a range of life experiences, and teachers like Snape provide one of them. Could the same argument be extended to Lockhart? As for Quirrell, I didn't think it was clear that he was as useless as Lockhart: scared and hopeless at disciplining the kids, maybe, but perhaps he *did* know his stuff (with Voldemort whispering hints into his turban if necessary? Though of course, V would probably have preferred Quirrell to teach badly...) Melanie asked: > Why wouldn't it be Ginny? In the same vein, Michi mentioned: > if indeed JKR thinks it's time for one of the characters to kick the bucket Reading this list, I realise just how hard I worked to track down all of the chats with JKR on the web! In one of them, she said that characters would continue to die, and that (in OoP?) one would be someone her readers "really gave a damn about", unlike Cedric, who was pretty peripheral in the grand scheme of things. She also said something like "the next book will mark the end of an era", which kind of hints at (the pointedly ageing in GoF) Dumbledore, doesn't it? Though I suppose he could retire, rather than die. Presumably McGonagall would then take the reins. Who'd take over as head of Gryffindor then, Hagrid perhaps?? I'd say Dumbledore will eventually be for the chop. At some stage he's bound to hand over the Gryffindor torch to Harry to continue fighting the forces of darkness in his stead, etc., even if it's left to a grand Book 7 finale, where seeing Voldemort kill Dumbledore with forbidden magic gives Harry the strength to avenge his mentor. My views on this are based on what one person termed the laws of fiction, or perhaps authorly instinct. Harry, Ron and Hermione are safe until the last book, because they're far too central to the plot to sacrifice (killing one of them would be so significant it would have to be a grand finale end of Book 7 event). That probably goes for Hagrid too (unless he gets slain in the Return of the Giants stuff... just possible, but he'd be quite a sacrifice. Hey, what a ghost he'd make!). There aren't that many significant "good" female characters, which provides those that there are with a form of insurance, so my bet is that Ginny and McGonagall are safe too, and Molly Weasley will probably be OK. As for Snape, he might end up doing the ultimate double agent sacrifice, but there are volumes of intrigue left to explore there: I'd give him at least another book or two of mileage. So who does that leave who's important enough to make an impression, but not so important as to leave a gaping plot hole? Hmmm. Lupin, Sirius, the other Weasleys, Neville. I lean slightly towards Lupin, actually, if only because he's both well-liked and vulnerable, but not crucial to the plot or, IMHO, showing signs of further essential character development. Then again, JKR could do another Cedric cop-out (set up a previously minor character, e.g. Angelina, Seamus etc. with a bigger part and then do the straw man knockdown trick). Rebecca's view on Dennis Creevey: > Dennis, on the other hand, I adore. Not only is he outrageously cute, but anybody who thinks falling in the lake and getting tossed out again by a giant squid is a thrilling experience is somebody I've got to respect Yeah, I have to say I found this endearing. Sort of a human version of Pigwidgeon, whom I've always adored, especially when Ron was waving him about furiously in GoF and he was hooting happily as if he were in a rollercoaster... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at cnsinternet.com Wed Jun 13 06:10:31 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:10:31 -0500 Subject: Number of Death Eaters References: <992399259.3389.10877.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00df01c0f3cf$8d6bb580$b9ae1cce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 20693 Re: How many Death Eaters? > > > --- seimmud at hotmail.com wrote: > > I don't know if this was mentioned before, but I > > wonder how many > > Death Eaters there are. > > > > Before I read GoF, I thought that there were > > hundreds or thousands of > > Death Eaters (in relation with about 6000 wizards > > and witches in > > Great Britain). But when the DE appeared after > > Voldemorts "rebirth" > > they made a circle around Voldemort. There were only > > a few DE, some > > are death or absent. Voldemort didn't say anything > > to some DE, but I > > don't think that there were so many DE unmentioned. > > And the circle > > cannot be so big for some hundred DEs. > > And: Are they all the DEs of the entired world? Or > > only the DE of GB? > > IMO, they should be all DEs because Voldemort wanted > > to show all his > > followers that he is back. > > > > What is your opinion about that? > > > > Katja > > > > > > > I think that Voldemort is only a Great Britain > phenomonon so concivably he only has followers in that > area(yes I know he was in Albainia but he was in > hiding and VERY weak so I don't see him having gotten > any more followers in that time). Therefore those that > were in the circle would be it. I don't see him has > having more than 30-40 DEs after all once he has one > member of the family as a DE technically he has the > whole family. My DH says he can see Voldemort using > Great Britain as a launching pad to taking the rest of > the world. > > Danette It could also easily be a case that Death-Eater-ism (is that a word?) is a matter of several different levels, like a lodge, and only the highest-ranking DEs were actually summoned by Voldemort. The low-ranking Death-Eater-wannabes might only get orders like "go to _this_ house, kill _these_ people," while the higher-ranking ones get to do more of the planning. This would minimize the chances of infiltration by Aurors and of betrayal by people who thought, at first, they could gain power, only to be horrified to find what they had to do for that power. I don't know how many wizards there are in UK/the world in the Potterverse, and I'm new to this list (be gentle with me, please!) but someone as power-hungry as Voldemort certainly wouldn't limit his ambitions to Great Britain. Karakoff's the only non-British (ex-)DE we know about for certain, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that Voldemort's got Death Eaters from all over. At the Quidditch Championship match, there are wizards and witches from all over (even the US!) and that's where we first find out about _what_ Death Eaters are/were, and about the Dark Mark. From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 06:25:51 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Killing off Characters In-Reply-To: <9g6q95+evto@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613062551.34626.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20694 Ken, The least common character that is predicted to die I think is probably Hermione, I haven't heard much about Dean or Seamus dying, although I do see one of the dying. Very little Cho...and very little Arthur...Haven't heard anything about Lavender or Pavarati..and really very little Draco The people I think are most likely to survive are: McGonagall(don't ask me why I just can't see her dying). Sirius or Lupin (take your pick, one of them will still be around in the end). Molly Weasley..Hermione....Harry...Draco...Fred and Geoge... Charlie...Dudley....and a bunch of other people that I don't really want to get into right now...all in all, I think we will have a satisfactory ending..but just like it should be, I don't think all good characters are going to live and all bad are going to die..too cliche... --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andromache815 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 08:26:30 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:26:30 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin/Dennis Crevey References: <9g6g03+p5qe@eGroups.com> <003101c0f3ab$6cd17f40$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20695 Rebecca: Colin annoys me: I don't blame Harry a bit for avoiding him. I was practically grinding my teeth every time he showed up in CoS, and it was a relief when he got Petrified and I didn't have to listen to his "All right, Harry?" any more. *grins* Yeah, I find anyone who worships celebrities and such annoying and brainless. Colin annoys me because he idolizes Harry, and everyone knows my position on the fame of Harry Potter. Go Snape! *EG* But I did feel sorry for Colin being petrified. That *can't* be a pleasant experience, even though he *is* annoying. I totally agree here. :) I was just thinking that the Creveys were cute, but when you mentioned Colin being annoying and Dennis being cute, I see that's why I thought both Creveys were cute initially. I was thinking of Dennis only. I loved the scene when he stood on his chair to get a better look at the goblet of fire 'cause he was so tiny. I thought that was cute. And ditto on your comment about how he thinks being thrown out of the water by a giant squid deserves respect. I thought that was awesome. Vicky From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Jun 13 10:47:50 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:47:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why *does* Hermione like Ron? In-Reply-To: <9g6dj1+7m3q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613104750.1938.qmail@web14708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20696 Well, on one hand it says in the first volume (I apologize for quoting inexactly, but I don't have the book with me right now): "There are certain adventures you can't live together without becoming friends, and certainly facing and defeating a Moutnain Troll is such an adventure". Let's not forget that, at the time when they become friends, Harry, Ron and Hermione are 11 years old, which, unless you are a bit precocious, is the age where you look at each other not as male or female, but just as - nearly neutral- friend or enemy. I think JKR has acted very wisely here to hint at possible - more or less passional- involvements only when the children have reached the age of fourteen. That's the age when simple friendship can begin to become love. So, Ron feels attracted by Hermione ("But...you are a girl!")when he realizes that someone might take her from him- not as a friend, but as a woman. Harry might be the one that goes along without a girlfriend for a long time. Susanne --- meboriqua at aol.com ha scritto:
Okay, big question, here, but before I ask it, I must say that I am a
Ron/Hermione shipper and a very big Harry/Ginny shipper. That said,
here's my question:

In GoF it appears that there *is* something going on between Hermione
and Ron. Even JKR said as much on an online chat, something many here
know. Now, while I see the tension between the two of them, and also
see some sort of romance on the horizon, why is Hermione interested in
Ron? I can't say it's the 'opposties attract' thing, because they
are definitely not, IMO, opposites - their similar stubborness and
tempers are examples of that.

If you were Hermione, why would you want to get involved with Ron?
Why would Ron be interested in Hermione as well?

This has been bothering me for quite some time!

--jenny from ravenclaw*************************************
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 13 13:24:29 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:24:29 -0000 Subject: The Worst of All Possible Wolves (filk) In-Reply-To: <9g6oum+6k05@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g7pid+u4o3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20697 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > The Worst of All Possible Wolves (from PoA, Chap 9) worth a (wolf) whistle! Pippin From JamiDeise at aol.com Wed Jun 13 13:28:31 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:28:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20698 In a message dated 6/12/2001 10:41:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MMMfanfic at hotmail.com writes: << Since we are on the topic of death, what do you guys make of the JKR frequent hinting of Harry's Death by the end of BK. 7? Red Herring? Preparing us for the worst? >> what hinting are you talking about? I really can't see her killing off Harry ... the way she's set up the series as good vs. evil, with Harry symbolizing good, killing him off would then be saying that evil does triumph over good, and I just don't think that's what this series is about. Jami From andromache815 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 10:51:09 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:51:09 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Female Stereotypes/Memorable details (was Of cliches and characterisation) References: <9ftfua+opmn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20699 Rebecca: Which makes me wonder- when you lot first read the books, did you just read it, and think "Oh no, that isn't right, JKR called Dudley fat" or "How come the nerdy ones all wear glasses" and the such like? Just interested. *gasp* I've only read the books once. I think we all overanalyze the books, talking like the characters are real, and attributing real-life logic to their actions and thoughts, but I think that's a case of HP withdrawal, and the fact that there's not much else to do till book 5 or the movie. I did notice gender roles very much. I feel that females are placed in traditional roles for the most part, except maybe for the Gryff Quidditch girls. Speaking of Quidditch, I wonder how players are selected. Flint and Wood have to be replaced. But back to female stereotypes. Hermione is a strong character. However, she seems to go to pieces when confronted with physical danger. In other words, she can't seem to think on her feet. Harry can, but perhaps that's another Slyth quality. But unlike most of you here, I thought it was touching how she dressed up for the Yule ball. Fleur annoyed me. She seemed like a flirt to me, always seeming to come on to any male she found attractive. Molly is the typical motherly figure. I like her. She fits into the typical female stereotype. I thought it was sweet how concerned she is for Arthur having to work so hard after the World Cup fiasco, and awaiting his return home all the time. The Weasleys seem to be a traditional family, where the husband earns all the money, and the wife stays home and takes care of domestic affairs. I personally see nothing wrong with this arrangement if both parties agree to it. I personally wouldn't mind having a life like that, with a loving, respectful husband and a couple kids. But that's the key, I think, to have a husband who cares for you as a person, and doesn't see you as property. Arthur is such a man. He and Molly love each other for who they are. *runs from the curses of the feminists* Jen: Everyone has different things they notice when they read. For someone who, unlike me, doesn't pay attention to gender things, they could probably read all the books and never notice what JKR does with gender, but that same person might notice the uses of hair color (like blondness) that never made any conscious impression on me. And of course, it depends how casually one read them the first time. I read them quite cursorily, but perhaps others gave more attention to it. The first time I read anything, I tend to read it cursorily. I don't analyze as I'm reading. I just go along for the ride. I noticed the symbolism in names right away (Lupin, Minerva, Draco, Lucius, Hermione), but didn't notice anything about looks. I knew that Dudley was fat, and I did notice the repeated references to it, but it didn't bother me too much, nor did it strike me that it was symbolism of any kind. I noticed how Snape likes to lurk in shadow, and how his voice is described as deadly, dangerous, quiet, and as a hiss, and that his eyes are black and cold, but he stands out, being my fav character. I noticed the happy, healthy marriage of the Weasleys, in contrast to the Malfoys, and how Arthur and Molly show concern and love for each other and their children. But then, I'm a hopeless romantic, with an affinity for tortured, tragic, noble heroes. Okay, I know Snape isn't exactly noble, but I think he's getting there, and when the chips are down, he'll be there. And who could forget the gruesome graveyard scene, or when Snape shows Fudge the Dark Mark? These are the things that stand out to me. Vicky P.S. To the person who said she'd never heard the name "Hermione" before, thus the conclusion of her being a light-colored black, it's taken from mythology on the Trojan War. Hermione was Menelaus and Helen's daughter, wife to Neoptolemus, son of Achilles and Didamia, I believe, though the name of the girl could be wrong. She was Andromache's mistress after Troy lost the war. Andromache and her husband, Hector, were my fav characters in that story. Such tragedy. :( Sorry for the OT insert. I love any excuse to talk about this tragic story. It's one of my favs. From andromache815 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 09:29:23 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:29:23 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How many Death Eaters? - Snape/Quirrel References: <9g5mke+bafj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20700 I don't know if this was mentioned before, but I wonder how many Death Eaters there are. Before I read GoF, I thought that there were hundreds or thousands of Death Eaters (in relation with about 6000 wizards and witches in Great Britain). But when the DE appeared after Voldemorts "rebirth" they made a circle around Voldemort. There were only a few DE, some are death or absent. Voldemort didn't say anything to some DE, but I don't think that there were so many DE unmentioned. And the circle cannot be so big for some hundred DEs. And: Are they all the DEs of the entired world? Or only the DE of GB? IMO, they should be all DEs because Voldemort wanted to show all his followers that he is back. What is your opinion about that? Katja I get the impression Voldie doesn't only have followers in Britain. If his reign of terror lasted so long the first time, it can't just be Britain. I'm betting there are lots of people in the ranks, but that the Death Eaters are Voldie's inner circle. And a thought sparked by this DE thread: I wonder what house Quirrel was in, assuming he was educated at Hogwarts? He's dead anyway, so it doesn't really matter, I suppose, but could he have been a cowardly Gryff, like Pettigrew, doing what he felt was best for himself? And I might be wrong, but I seem to recall Quirrel crying about something, and saying sometimes he found it difficult to follow his master's orders. Snape obviously wasn't willing to give him the solution to his puzzle, so did Quirrel force him to do it somehow? If so, does this say that Snape is not as brave or powerful as I'd like to imagine? Does Snape know Voldie had taken possession of Quirrel? Snape doesn't seem like one to be afraid of pain, unless he was given Veritaserum or something and then questioned about his puzzle...Kinda like what Dumbledore did to Moody/Crouch. Vicky From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 13:33:57 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 06:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's B-Day and Games In-Reply-To: <9g6q95+evto@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613133357.15396.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20701 --- banjoken at optonline.net wrote: > On a completely unrelated topic: Somebody mentioned > that in the HP > games they have, the person who's birthday is > closest to Harry's goes > first. I've got to get some of these games! My bday > just happens to > be July 31, so I'd win automatically! :) > > Ken > > Oooo...can I play with you? My B-Day is June 14(tomorrow) so I'd go next....wouldn't I? :D Danette Who's hoping to get some of those games for here birthday....even if she is turning 29. ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 13:41:26 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 06:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Number of Death Eaters In-Reply-To: <00df01c0f3cf$8d6bb580$b9ae1cce@hppav> Message-ID: <20010613134126.18104.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20702 --- Eric Oppen wrote: > > It could also easily be a case that Death-Eater-ism > (is that a word?) is a > matter of several different levels, like a lodge, > and only the > highest-ranking DEs were actually summoned by > Voldemort. The low-ranking > Death-Eater-wannabes might only get orders like "go > to _this_ house, kill > _these_ people," while the higher-ranking ones get > to do more of the > planning. This would minimize the chances of > infiltration by Aurors and of > betrayal by people who thought, at first, they could > gain power, only to be > horrified to find what they had to do for that > power. > > I don't know how many wizards there are in UK/the > world in the Potterverse, > and I'm new to this list (be gentle with me, > please!) but someone as > power-hungry as Voldemort certainly wouldn't limit > his ambitions to Great > Britain. Karakoff's the only non-British (ex-)DE we > know about for certain, > but I wouldn't be surprised to find that Voldemort's > got Death Eaters from > all over. At the Quidditch Championship match, > there are wizards and > witches from all over (even the US!) and that's > where we first find out > about _what_ Death Eaters are/were, and about the > Dark Mark. > > You mean kind of like some sort of cell system?(Members of one cell don't know members of other cells) That would explain why Karakoff couldn't give the ministry any real names when he was trying to get out of Azkaban. I can just see the 6th and 7th year Slytherins being in some sort of Junior Death Eater Club(secret handshake anyone?) Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 13:52:05 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Of Crushes, Kickers of Buckets and Creeveys In-Reply-To: <003401c0f3e5$c137e4e0$2890aecb@price> Message-ID: <20010613135205.9680.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20703 --- Tabouli wrote: > Rebecca's view on Dennis Creevey: > > Dennis, on the other hand, I adore. Not only is > he outrageously cute, but > anybody who thinks falling in the lake and getting > tossed out again by a > giant squid is a thrilling experience is somebody > I've got to respect > > Yeah, I have to say I found this endearing. Sort of > a human version of Pigwidgeon, whom I've always > adored, especially when Ron was waving him about > furiously in GoF and he was hooting happily as if he >were in a rollercoaster... Also Dennis doesn;t seen to be as star-struck as his brother over Harry(maybe the separation in years has something to do with that). And he really does fill that "cute little kid" slot. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 13:54:41 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:54:41 -0000 Subject: HP-related Games (was Re: Killing off Characters) In-Reply-To: <9g6r6q+mgre@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g7rb1+egqj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20704 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" wrote: > As far as the games go, check with people here before buying one. > they've been disappointing. All of the merchandise was a rush job, > IMO. I would not be surprised that the HP-based games would be pretty weak. It seems that most games developed with a marketing tie-in to a movie or tv show wind up that way. OTOH, let me speak in favor of Harry Potter Uno. First, the tie-in to Harry Potter is *very* weak, but the game itself is great fun. Four of my friends and I played it for several hours over Memorial Day Weekend down at the beach. The rules are in essence the same as common Uno rules, with the fairly standard house exception of being able to defend against penalty cards by matching them (Draw 4 on Draw 4, for example). The differences between HP Uno and normal Uno are as follows: (1) "Draw 3" cards, instead of "Draw 2". (2) Wilds may be played any time (even if you have matching colors). (3) A player caught not calling Uno is penalized 5 cards (not 4). (4) Invisibility wild - makes the player immune to attacks. (5) Howler wild - which makes the player next in line *shout* out all his or her cards. The two new wilds are poorly explained, so we used them as follows: Invisibility wild - we figured that a card that gave a player whole- round immunity was not a very good idea, so we decided that it must have been intended as a Get-Out-Jail-Free card. If previous players had played penalty cards onto the pile, the player holding the Invisibility wild would play his/her card and it would nullify the previous cards. Example: Player A plays a Draw 3. Player B plays a Draw 3 (taking advantage matching penalty cards). Player C plays a Draw 3 (same advantage). Player D plays an Invisibility wild and thus avoids a "draw 9". Play continues, and player D does not have immunity against future penalties. Howler wild - this card is a real kick, especially if the people you are playing with are real hams and are willing to shriek and squeal their cards in great "agony". We decided that the player who plays it gets to wait to call a new color until after he/she hears what's in the next player's hand. Example: Player B has "uno" (one card left) and the pile has a Red six on top. Player A plays the Howler wild. Player B screams out "I have a Red 7!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Player A changes the color to Green and avoids player B going out. Play continues. We really liked the game and once we had clarified the rules in a logical and consistent way, it kept us busy most of the afternoon. It comes in a mock chest and the cards are adorned with the usual movie-tie-in HP graphics. ....Craig From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 14:02:00 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:02:00 -0000 Subject: Harry never gets anyone presents Message-ID: <9g7roo+ojs6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20705 In the books Harry always gets christmas presents from Ron Hermione, rons family and Hagrid but it never mentions him giving any presents, does it? From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 13 14:02:52 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:02:52 -0000 Subject: Ginny's crush In-Reply-To: <9c.f561ba9.28582a97@aol.com> Message-ID: <9g7rqc+qj4p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20706 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/12/01 9:54:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... writes: > > > > I don't see Ginny as crush-lorn over Harry at this point in canon. > > There's been NOTHING in book 4 to indicate that she is mooning over > > harry Heidi, there is! Isn't she obviously unhappy that she can't go to the ball with him? Personally I think this wasn't hte only issue. I think that she wanted Harry to want to go to the ball with her, not just go with her because he can't go with Cho. Devika wrote Harry has gotten used to the fact that > Ginny likes him, just as he has gotten used to being famous. Both of these > things embarassed him before, but now he seems to have accepted them. > Perhaps Harry is becoming more mature as well. But still...I can't help but > wonder if Harry is beginning to enjoy being famous, or having Ginny's > admiration. Focussing on the famous thing, I don't think Harry is getting used to it, let alone enjoying it. There is a lot of canonical evidence to back this up. His fame, and the attention it brings, besides the fact he becomes a champion, temporarily alienates him from his best friend. His friends are attacked by the tabloid press, when Rita Skeeter is no longer unable to get to him directly (Hagrid and Hermione). He makes it clear that he doesn't enjoy the attention. Sure, he wanted the glory of winning the Triwizard Tournament, but I think that this was more to do with proving himself, in the same way he does on the Quidditch field, rather than being famous for the sake of something he can't remember. It is in GoF that Harry is really exposed to the downside of being famous. In the previous books, it has been merely annoying, in GoF it has gone beyond this - it is potentially dangerous. By this I mean that important people such as Fudge have believe the libellous tales that Rita Skeeter are printing about him, and are therefore doubting his word, his honesty, his sanity. Finally (for now) he also compares himself to Krum. Krum is attracted to Hermione because she isn't fawning over him like all the other girls in the school. Likewise, Harry is filled with self doubt, when he considers that none of the girls who notice him would be interested in him if he wasn't famous and wasn't a champion. Harry has always struck me as being an introvert, and I still think that all he wants is to be left alone. He is friendly with people, but only has a few close friends, which I think are worth much more to him than any advantages fame can bring. Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 13 14:07:32 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:07:32 -0000 Subject: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: <20010613031230.17553.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g7s34+te0c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20707 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > Since we are on the topic of death, what do you guys make of the JKR > frequent hinting of Harry's Death by the end of BK. 7? Red Herring? > Preparing us for the worst? > > > > Her frequent hinting at ths is the main reason why I can't see her killing him off. She likes to play with these kids heads...is he gonna die? well it's still anyones guess..I would bet no..but then that is just because I don't think she would tell everyone if he was going to die. Dobby is another possible death.. > > OK, this is kind of OT, but a little poll... Imagine book 7 has just come out... how many people will not be able to resist looking at the final chapters to see who is alive at the end!?? Catherine From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Wed Jun 13 14:19:28 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:19:28 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age In-Reply-To: <9g6otq+7tv8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g7spg+fbe8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20708 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Harry was born on July 31, 1980. Ron was born on March 1, 1980, so > he's five months older than Harry. Hermione was born on September > 19th. I believe that she was born in 1980 as well and that she turned > 11 a couple of weeks after she started at Hogwarts, but others feel > that the cutoff is September 1 so she must have been born in 1979. > The books don't actually say this, however. There is no indication in > the canon as to which of these--1979 or 1980--is correct. > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > which includes all canonical information about the characters > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon FWIW, if Hermione was born in 1980 she would almost certainly have missed her final year at Muggle primary school before attending Hogwarts. For a pupil as bright as her, this may not matter much, and the Hogwarts lessons in any case don't tie in to our much-loved National Curriculum. Our son was expected on 3rd Sept, and arrived on 25th August. As a result he went into a different academic year to all the other (Early September) babies in our National Childbirth Trust classes. The system isn't enforced particularly - it just happens with a high degree of accuracy. David, A spell checker is a device for turning bad spelling into worse vocabulary From reanna20 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 14:30:23 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry never gets anyone presents In-Reply-To: <9g7roo+ojs6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613143023.16668.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20709 --- rowanbrookt at yahoo.com wrote: > In the books Harry always gets christmas presents from Ron Hermione, > rons family and Hagrid but it never mentions him giving any presents, > does it? Nope, it doesn't although I believe Ron gets a Chudley Cannon hat from Harry for Christmas and Harry buys Ron and Hermione the omnioculars (sp?). I asked this question before and a list member (can't remember who!) said that JKR said in an interview/chat that Harry *did* give birthday/christmas presents to his friends regularly but that she doesn't have space to mention it in the book. I guess it's one of those "goes without saying" things. Regardless, the fact that it isn't mentioned still bugs me. Eh well, we can't have it all... ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/12/2001 "DON'T THINK OF IT AS DYING, said Death. JUST THINK OF IT AS LEAVING EARLY TO AVOID THE RUSH." - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From reanna20 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 14:39:32 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Peeking ahead... In-Reply-To: <9g7s34+te0c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613143932.40698.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20710 --- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote: > Imagine book 7 has just come out... how many people will not be able > to resist looking at the final chapters to see who is alive at the > end!?? Hrm, good question. I don't know. I'd like to think that I wouldn't look ahead. But I can't guarantee it. I started reading HP after GoF was published. I read the first three books and was waiting to get the fourth. Curious, I was looking on the web at all the HP sites (they multiply like rabbits!) and couldn't resist peeking at some articles about the four book. So, I knew that a character was going to die before I read the fourth book (although I didn't read *which* character). It didn't ruin the experience for me though, because the article said a *girl* died not a guy. I was not expecting Cedric at all. I must admit that I've given into peeking ahead before. Sometimes, I'll randomly looking to a section later in the book just to see who's talking. I don't read any of it, just skim briefly. I guess I should make a promise to myself not to peek ahead on the last three books. That way I can be properly surprised/astounded/devastated/ecstatic. ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/12/2001 "DON'T THINK OF IT AS DYING, said Death. JUST THINK OF IT AS LEAVING EARLY TO AVOID THE RUSH." - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 15:04:42 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:04:42 -0000 Subject: Does anyone know a site where I can get some little hp pic for kids to colour Message-ID: <9g7vea+c49p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20711 I particularly want a little pic of hedwig From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 15:23:33 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:23:33 -0000 Subject: Does anyone see the success of the hp books as largly Message-ID: <9g80hl+tahj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20712 attributed to the fact that the kids in the stories are living with out parents stifling their freedom. For a long time girls school stories by enid blyton and brent dyer have been very popular and certainly the childrens freedom played a big part in their success. In the naughtiest girl series by enid blyton the main character goes to a mixed bording school where the children set the rules, inforce them and punish rule breakers From andromache815 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 10:40:30 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 00:40:30 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] child abuse; was Re: FAT References: <9ft5t1+pdi4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20713 Joywitch: > 2. Much as we do not like to admit it, THE HP BOOKS ARE WORKS OF > FICTION. The authorities did not intervene in the Dursleys treatment > of Harry because JKR wrote it that way. I have said this many times > before, but I believe that the somewhat unbelievable meanness of the > Dursleys may be a kind of literary tribute by JKR to Roald Dahl, > whose books are full of sadistic parents and guardians just like the > Dursleys. Dahl often exaggerated negative things for effect (e.g. the mean parents and headmistress in Matilda, and Charlies poverty in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory)> Jenny: That is very true, and I am very much aware of that. I suppose that is also why I laughed at the Ton-Tongue Toffee incident (and re read it about 10 times), even though others thought it was mean, and why I cannot wait to see Harry use magic against Dudley, as JKR hinted at in an online chat. Yeah, I thought it was hilarious, as well. And the pig tail incident. :)) I hope to see the Dursleys get their just desserts. I'm quite vindictive, can't you tell? I was also bullied as a child. Very damaging to the self-esteem. I also tend to hang on to grudges until given an apology. Vicky From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 15:39:23 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:39:23 -0000 Subject: what does IMO stand for? Message-ID: <9g81fb+f9jh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20714 IMO??? From bess_va at lycos.com Wed Jun 13 16:00:28 2001 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va at lycos.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:00:28 -0000 Subject: small wonderings Message-ID: <9g82ms+9mej@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20715 Hi y'all, I'm new to this list (and I'm also the world's worst speller), and have a few small questions. 1.) how does Ron get to keep Pig when he returns home for the summer? If I'd brought home a new, resonably expensive, 'thing' from school, my mom and dad would have asked a lot of questions. How does Ron explain this to his folks? Ron's a terrible liar, it not as if he'd mentioned Pig previously to his family in letters home ("Dear Mum and Dad, Harry gave me a great mini-owl for Christmas..."). His parents aren't clued into Sirius' redemption until the end of GoF, so telling them the truth is out. (Love to envision that potential scene..."Well Mom, you remember Harry's godfather Sirius Black...?" 2.) How do Fred and George design/develop their pranks if they're not allowed to use magic during the vacations? Loud explosions are heard from their rooms and we're introduced to the toffee at the end of a summer vacation. Why haven't they gotten into trouble with the MOM? 3.) where are Lily's girlfriends? and particularly, where's Harry's godmother? JKR makes a distinction between Sirius being both Harry's godfather and guardian. I took that to mean Sirius was Harry's *religious* godfather. Sirius would have taken the role at Harry's baptism and been responsible for overseeing Harry's religious education should his parents not been able to take care of it. It (godfather) would not just be an honorary title that some people use, kindof like an honorary Aunt or Uncle. And Sirius was appointed *legal* guardian should anything happen to his folks. It's my understanding that if there's a godfather, there's usually a godmother (only know this second-hand, my religious denomination doesn't "do" godparents). True, she may have passed on during the time of terror, but other than Hagrid's collecting photos of Lily and James from unnamed "friends", we don't know anything about Lily's friends. Was she like Hermione and just hung with the boys? (but she didn't participate in the monthly rambles). thanks for considering my questions, Bess From fruitloophotty at aol.com Wed Jun 13 16:05:33 2001 From: fruitloophotty at aol.com (fruitloophotty at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:05:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Has anyone thought of this? Message-ID: <10f.11a03d7.2858e94d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20716 Jamieson: I don't know about anyone else, but I STAND the Creevy boys...they annoy the heck out of me. They just make my skin crawl, and I'm not sure why. ---- Argh. I can't stand either of them either! I can't think up a logical explanation for why except for the obvious. Imagine having someone following you *everywhere* with a camera attached to their face. Granted, Harry may be used to such unwanted attention, but my temper matches up more with Ron's, and I'm afraid that after awhile Colin would be walking around with his precious camera up his cute little arse. I can't stand Colin the way I couldn't stand Lockhart in CoS. How could someone be *so* full of themselve and make up such blatent lies!? Every time he accused Harry of trying to purposely attract attention, I wanted to rip my hair out and scream. --Connie From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Wed Jun 13 16:06:40 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:06:40 -0000 Subject: Does anyone see the success of the hp books as largly In-Reply-To: <9g80hl+tahj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g832g+gf0o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20717 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > attributed to the fact that the kids in the stories are living with > out parents stifling their freedom. For a long time girls school > stories by enid blyton and brent dyer have been very popular and > certainly the childrens freedom played a big part in their success. In > the naughtiest girl series by enid blyton the main character goes to a > mixed bording school where the children set the rules, inforce them > and punish rule breakers IMO, if there is one theme throughout children's and folk literature in our culture, it is the orphan. Look at all those favourite books people have been mentioning on OT-Chatter; the first thing the author does is get the adults out of the way. Think of all those wicked stepmothers. HP is dead centre in this. David From fruitloophotty at aol.com Wed Jun 13 16:05:47 2001 From: fruitloophotty at aol.com (fruitloophotty at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:05:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's death, wizards internet, Young love Message-ID: <125.42c313.2858e95b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20718 Rebekah: Ok, first I wanna clear something up. I doubt *very* much if Ron will die in the books. Plus, I think if she did ever kill any or all of the trio, she'd have hoards of angry fans on her doorstep *vbeg* ------ I have no ideas as to who J.K. will kill in future books. There's a part of me that can see how killing Ron or Hermione off would deepen the plot, maybe giving Harry the final. . .for lack of better word. . .boost to finish Voldemort off, but then the thought comes up that these books are originally intended for children. How would young 8 and 9 year olds react to Harry's best friends being killed? I don't know if J.K. would want to go down that path. But that's just me, trying to make sure my children lead sheltered lives for as long as I can shelter them. ^ ^ And I can just picture how some of those hoity-toity Christians-with-a-cause would react when hearing that those awful Harry Potter books have taken an even darker toll in corrupting our young ones. Heh heh. I'm not saying I would oppose J.K. killing off an important character, I'm just pondering what certain reactions will be when it happens. But then, I can see J.K. going against the crowd and possibly killing them all off. --Connie From litalex at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 16:18:58 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:18:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] what does IMO stand for? References: <9g81fb+f9jh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00a601c0f424$8d9ab420$0611eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20719 In my opinion. It's usually imho -- in my humble opinion. Of course, then there's my favorite, imnsho -- in my not so humble opinion . little Alex From simon at hp.inbox.as Wed Jun 13 16:10:32 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:10:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] what does IMO stand for? In-Reply-To: <9g81fb+f9jh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20720 rowanbrookt: <<>> It stands for I Must Observe the shorthand guide, findable at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-shorthand.htm where useful terms and acronyms are explained. Also in that file is the true meaning of IMO, but I can guess that everyone who does not know can now look it up to find out. Simon -- HPforGrownUps is the place for the best weekly chat about all things related to the Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling. That chats are on Sunday, starting at around 8 pm BST (or possibly earlier). For more information please visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsChatScripts. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fruitloophotty at aol.com Wed Jun 13 16:13:36 2001 From: fruitloophotty at aol.com (fruitloophotty at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:13:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20721 I have the bad habit of reading the last page of almost all the books I buy. But in this case, I will force my self not to look. It would ruin the whole book for me if I did. It's going to to be a hard battle to fight...but I will *not* look at that last chapter to who is still standing. --Connie, who hopes she can leave up to her promise, and hopes even more that people who finish it before her don't ruin the ending for her like a certain husband did for the season finale of "Friends". Grrr...Still steaming over that one. From JamiDeise at aol.com Wed Jun 13 16:43:13 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:43:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Of Crushes, Kickers of Buckets and Creeveys Message-ID: <69.16aa4397.2858f221@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20722 In a message dated 6/13/2001 12:07:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tabouli at unite.com.au writes: << I always did think that hiring an incompetent like Lockhart for a subject as important as DADA for a year was a trifle irresponsible.>> It says somewhere in CoS that he's the only one who applied for the job. (more evidence that the "Snape's desperate for the DADA post is just a rumor.) >>As for Quirrell, I didn't think it was clear that he was as useless as Lockhart: scared and hopeless at disciplining the kids, maybe, but perhaps he *did* know his stuff (with Voldemort whispering hints into his turban if necessary? Though of course, V would probably have preferred Quirrell to teach badly...) >> I believe Quirrell was okay until he came back from his summer in Albania, where he acquired Voldy under his turban. Having already proven himself to Dumbledore, perhaps Dumbledore was giving him the benefit of the doubt, thinking Quirrell's bizarre behavior would eventually ebb. Jami From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Jun 13 16:43:39 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:43:39 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age In-Reply-To: <9g7spg+fbe8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g857r+pnea@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20723 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > > Harry was born on July 31, 1980. Ron was born on March 1, 1980, so > > he's five months older than Harry. Hermione was born on September > > 19th. I believe that she was born in 1980 as well and that she > turned > > 11 a couple of weeks after she started at Hogwarts, but others feel > > that the cutoff is September 1 so she must have been born in 1979. > > The books don't actually say this, however. There is no indication > in > > the canon as to which of these--1979 or 1980--is correct. > > > > Steve Vander Ark > > The Harry Potter Lexicon > > which includes all canonical information about the characters > > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon > > FWIW, if Hermione was born in 1980 she would almost certainly have > missed her final year at Muggle primary school before attending > Hogwarts. For a pupil as bright as her, this may not matter much, > and the Hogwarts lessons in any case don't tie in to our much-loved > National Curriculum. Maybe this is the reason why Hermione studies so hard. She's technically a year behind everyone else; therefore, she studies to compensate for that deficiency. Milz From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Wed Jun 13 16:48:20 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:48:20 -0000 Subject: Ron and Hermione Message-ID: <9g85gk+fvui@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20724 Responding (but not soft-linking) to a number of recent threads. Ron and Hermione rate each other enormously. It's easy for us to forget this in the day-to-day aggro about the firebolt and the ball. Each knows that, when the chips are down, they can count on the loyalty of the other. When Snape takes the DADA lesson and criticises Hermione for being a know-it-all, it's Ron who gets detention for defending her. He has earned the right to call her a know-it-all - Snape hasn't. When Ron (and Harry) have messed up and shut her in with the troll, she takes the blame for them. It is because of the expectations generated by this underlying strength of friendship that they have such strong disputes. You couldn't imagine Harry having an I'm-not-speaking-to-you dispute with Snape or Draco, or even Dean. The problem Ron and Hermione have is that they don't show any appreciation of each other in day-to-day things. So when Hermione buys Crookshanks, Ron interprets this in the light of his own pet as a signal that she doesn't care about him personally. He can reason that if she did, she would also care about Scabbers, and would take his safety seriously. Hermione, on the other hand, while ready in principle to look after Scabbers' safety, is expecting Ron first to respond to Crookshanks on the basis that he is her choice. Ron doesn't, and she can reason that he doesn't care about the things that she wants. The rest of the Scabbers-Crookshanks argument is then almost inevitable. Interestingly, Harry has the same basic mutual respect for both, and is little better in his day-to-day appreciation of either of them, but he has the edge because he sees their points of view. That moderates his hostility to Hermione over the Firebolt, and gives him a degree of detachment overthat and over who invites whom to the ball. He also has less (felt) need for appreciation, being used to doing without. It's easy to say that once you have cleared all this out of the way, the field is wide open for a romantic relationship, either R/H, or H/H, or with outside people. This would be true if romance existed on a separate plane independent of life. In fact (IMO), Ron and Hermione's mutual frustration at not hearing the appreciation they want from each other is actually drawing them together. Harry's detachment is taking him out of the frame. This is why it is hard to interpret Hermione's comments and body language over Fleur. It's not that she has feelings for Ron and so is jealous, or just that she is contemptuous of Ron's behaviour - rather, her reaction to his behaviour is what is *creating* her feelings. David, jumping into the water From saitaina at wizzards.net Wed Jun 13 16:43:06 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:43:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who dies in Bk 5? Dobby! References: <9g6n8j+s7gu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <001d01c0f427$ec833ea0$a24e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20725 The 'special fan' statement has been used to explain the deaths of everyone from Dumbledore to Colin Creevey. I myself think it was a sarcastic meaning. Think about it, special fan could also be an enemey. That would also be a bit of an impact. Such a thing as taking out one of Harry's enemy's would be unsettling to both sides, proving no one's safe with Voldemort alive. While this theory hold no water beyond that, it is understandable that anyone could be dead in book five, not just those on the side of good. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rosmerta To: Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 8:38 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who dies in Bk 5? Dobby! > > > I posted this theory awhile back in some other thread, but since I'm > too lazy to look for it, here it is again: someone had said that JKR > said a "special fan" of Harry's would die in Book 5, and I think > that "special" friend is Dobby. Reason? Barty Crouch Jr. is gone (or > gonzo, to be more technically correct, since he is presumably alive > but soulless), but Winky is still around. She knows way too much > about Voldy & Co. and is at Hogwarts, so the Dark side tries to wipe > her out. Dobby comes to her rescue and dies in the process. Harry > feels enormous guilt that his No. 1 fan died for him and fear that > Voldemort is closing in on him by murdering those closer and closer > to him (notwithstanding his parents of course). Plotwise, it's a way > for JKR to tighten the noose without giving everyone heart attacks by > offing a Weasley or anyone emotionally at the center of the books. > > ~Rosmerta > who doesn't mean to offend Dobby fans by insinuating he's not at the > center....but IMO he's not! > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 13 17:02:49 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:02:49 -0000 Subject: Peeking ahead... In-Reply-To: <20010613143932.40698.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g86bp+uq0u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20726 Amber wrote: "I must admit that I've given into peeking ahead before. Sometimes, I'll randomly looking to a section later in the book just to see who's talking. I don't read any of it, just skim briefly. I guess I should make a promise to myself not to peek ahead on the last three books. That way I can be properly surprised/astounded/devastated/ecstatic." --I have a friend who says that one should always read the ending first in cast of an untimely death before finishing. While I'm not sure that arguement stands I admit that I have done this before. I hope that I can resist with HP though. Of course the ending might not even make sense without reading the rest of the book first. However if she includes an epilogue and I *happen* to see it first, and it *happens* to say "...and then Harry and Ginny got married and lived happily ever after, whilst next door lived Hermione and Ron. Together each had many red haired children..." etc. then I'll throw my book down in disgust. :-) Now I'm just kidding! Even though I'd rather see Harry die than be slotted for OBHWF at the end (with a nice bow to complete the package) I hope I can trust myself enough to save the last pages for last. I'm just not sure I can. Scott From wings909 at aol.com Wed Jun 13 17:10:05 2001 From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:10:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ginny's crush Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20727 <> Nice to see someone else thinks that too. I've always been of the opinion that Gred and Forge sent it, it would be just like them to pull something like that especially since it would give them so much fuel : ) Cheers, Paula From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Jun 13 17:15:09 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:15:09 -0000 Subject: small wonderings In-Reply-To: <9g82ms+9mej@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g872t+n2m2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20728 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bess_va at l... wrote: > Hi y'all, I'm new to this list (and I'm also the world's worst > speller), and have a few small questions. > > 1.) how does Ron get to keep Pig when he returns home for the summer? > If I'd brought home a new, resonably expensive, 'thing' from school, > my mom and dad would have asked a lot of questions. How does Ron > explain this to his folks? Ron's a terrible liar, it not as if he'd > mentioned Pig previously to his family in letters home ("Dear Mum and > Dad, Harry gave me a great mini-owl for Christmas..."). His parents > aren't clued into Sirius' redemption until the end of GoF, so telling > them the truth is out. (Love to envision that potential scene..."Well > Mom, you remember Harry's godfather Sirius Black...?" > Maybe Ron pulled a "I found him Mum. He's so tiny. I couldn't leave him there all by himself." He probably conned Molly and Arthur into letting him keep Pig because 1. Scabbers "died" (Fred, George, Ginny and Percy could corroborate) and 2. considering Errol's advanced age, Pig could be a family owl. I was notorious for bringing home stray dogs and cats when I was a child so I can imagine the techniques Ron used on Molly and Arthur. > 2.) How do Fred and George design/develop their pranks if they're not > allowed to use magic during the vacations? Loud explosions are heard > from their rooms and we're introduced to the toffee at the end of a > summer vacation. Why haven't they gotten into trouble with the MOM? > I don't think the explosions were caused by wand magic. Harry's potions supplies needed replenishing in GoF. I think Fred and George used their potions supplies, household chemicals and things that can be found around the Burrow. Lots of things can cause explosions if ignited. There's a plant, called Borage, that when thrown on a fire it will spark and make small explosive sounds. I imagine some of the potions materials would do the same thing. > 3.) where are Lily's girlfriends? and particularly, where's Harry's > godmother? JKR makes a distinction between Sirius being both Harry's > godfather and guardian. I took that to mean Sirius was Harry's > *religious* godfather. Sirius would have taken the role at Harry's > baptism and been responsible for overseeing Harry's religious > education should his parents not been able to take care of it. > It (godfather) would not just be an honorary title that some people > use, kindof like an honorary Aunt or Uncle. And Sirius was appointed > *legal* guardian should anything happen to his folks. It's my > understanding that if there's a godfather, there's usually a godmother > (only know this second-hand, my religious denomination doesn't "do" > godparents). True, she may have passed on during the time of terror, > but other than Hagrid's collecting photos of Lily and James from > unnamed "friends", we don't know anything about Lily's friends. Was > she like Hermione and just hung with the boys? (but she didn't > participate in the monthly rambles). > I'm a god-mother. When I lived near my god-daughter, her parents put me down as the alternative "contact person" for her day-care and I baby-sat her quite often. Though I now live in a different state, her parent's will names me as her guardian should they both die (her god-father is the runner-up: if something happens to me, he'll become Gaby's guardian). So the god-parent responsibility doesn't necessarily concern religious education only. Lily's friends are a mystery. I assume she had her own group of friends at Hogwarts. If her only friends were James, Peter, Sirius and Remus, I would have expected her to be indentified as such by Remus or Sirius. I even have a feeling that Lupin wasn't as close to James and Sirius as was Peter (Rosmerta's comments in PoA about Peter always tagging around James and Sirius). I do hope that we'll meet some of Lily's friends. Milz From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Wed Jun 13 17:21:45 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:21:45 -0000 Subject: small wonderings In-Reply-To: <9g82ms+9mej@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g87f9+8719@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20729 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bess_va at l... wrote: > Hi y'all, I'm new to this list (and I'm also the world's worst > speller), and have a few small questions. > > 1.) how does Ron get to keep Pig when he returns home for the summer? > > 2.) How do Fred and George design/develop their pranks if they're not allowed to use magic during the vacations? > 3.) where are Lily's girlfriends? and particularly, where's Harry's godmother? > thanks for considering my questions, Bess Hi and welcome - difficult questions! 1)"A friend of Harry's gave it to him, he's got Hedwig so he passed him onto me" - pretty well true (except I think Sirius mentions Ron). But I think your'e right: Ron won't have thouht out an explanation with a straight face to go with it. I think Ginny would, by naming and liking him (oops, did she show a flash of character there? perish the thought!), ensure that Molly would overlook it - I imagine that anything that makes Ginny happy would sway Molly a lot. Arthur wouldn't care as long as he knew where Pig keeps his brain. 2) I've always thought the MOM ban must be subject to some sort of parental override in wizarding households. They are all familiar with broomstick riding, for example (or doesn't this count?). In any case, Mafalda Hopkirk can only tell that magic is performed, not who did it. It may not apply above, say, fifth year. 3) After PA, I thought Book 4 would give us this. I still think most of one of the future books will be devoted to this, as PA was to James' friends (and Snape). I don't believe in the significance of a godmother particularly. Practice varies by religious belief and afiliation, but in mainstream (ie non-religious) English culture, an the absence of brothers and sisters (Petunia might have turned it down), best friends are asked. In default of major events like death, godparently duties are limited to birthday and Christmas presents (and in my experience fall off with time). As you say, Sirius has a legal responsibility but that might have been his alone. We can speculate about his interrupted marriage plans to a putative godmother. David, who believes all O is incompatible with H From bbennett at joymail.com Wed Jun 13 17:24:02 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:24:02 -0000 Subject: The Valentine (was Ginny's crush) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9g87ji+5pmb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20730 < Ginny - I'm of the opinion that it wasn't. Her discomfort in that > scene (which Harry interpreted as embarassment over the Valentine) is later revealed to be fear over discovering that Harry had the diary.>> > Nice to see someone else thinks that too. I've always been of the opinion that Gred and Forge sent it, it would be just like them to pull something like that especially since it would give them so much fuel : ) Has it been stated positively anywhere that the Valentine came from Ginny? It was my initial interpretation that Fred and George sent it. B From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Wed Jun 13 17:29:02 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:29:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Valentine (was Ginny's crush) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20731 B wrote: > > < > Ginny - I'm of the opinion that it wasn't. Her discomfort in that > > scene (which Harry interpreted as embarassment over the Valentine) > is later revealed to be fear over discovering that Harry had the > diary.>> > > > Nice to see someone else thinks that too. I've always been of the > opinion that Gred and Forge sent it, it would be just like them to > pull something like that especially since it would give them so much > fuel : ) > > Has it been stated positively anywhere that the Valentine came from > Ginny? It was my initial interpretation that Fred and George sent it. In CoS, Draco says that Ginny sent it, but even *I* don't think he knows for sure - *he* is guessing, based on her reaction when she saw Harry's reaction to it. heidi some people fear death; I fear literalists From oppen at cnsinternet.com Wed Jun 13 17:56:04 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:56:04 -0500 Subject: How Many Death Eaters? References: <992449449.2157.98278.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <008d01c0f432$1e3f9740$f9c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 20732 Re: Number of Death Eaters > > > --- Eric Oppen wrote: > > > > It could also easily be a case that Death-Eater-ism > > (is that a word?) is a > > matter of several different levels, like a lodge, > > and only the > > highest-ranking DEs were actually summoned by > > Voldemort. The low-ranking > > Death-Eater-wannabes might only get orders like "go > > to _this_ house, kill > > _these_ people," while the higher-ranking ones get > > to do more of the > > planning. This would minimize the chances of > > infiltration by Aurors and of > > betrayal by people who thought, at first, they could > > gain power, only to be > > horrified to find what they had to do for that > > power. > > > > I don't know how many wizards there are in UK/the > > world in the Potterverse, > > and I'm new to this list (be gentle with me, > > please!) but someone as > > power-hungry as Voldemort certainly wouldn't limit > > his ambitions to Great > > Britain. Karakoff's the only non-British (ex-)DE we > > know about for certain, > > but I wouldn't be surprised to find that Voldemort's > > got Death Eaters from > > all over. At the Quidditch Championship match, > > there are wizards and > > witches from all over (even the US!) and that's > > where we first find out > > about _what_ Death Eaters are/were, and about the > > Dark Mark. > > > > > > You mean kind of like some sort of cell > system?(Members of one cell don't know members of > other cells) That would explain why Karakoff couldn't > give the ministry any real names when he was trying to > get out of Azkaban. I can just see the 6th and 7th > year Slytherins being in some sort of Junior Death > Eater Club(secret handshake anyone?) > Yes, that would be one way of doing it. I was thinking more of how some lodges, like the Masons, work (and this is NOT a slam at the Masons, or any existing lodge!!!) with lower-ranking members not having all the "secret knowledge" that you get as you rise in the ranks. We don't know much about Voldemort, but he might well be familiar enough with Muggle culture to use either system, or both. A cell system, combined with a system of ranks, would be very difficult for the Aurors to destroy entirely; hence, the number of DEs who managed to get away, after the first fall of Voldemort. As for non-British DEs, keep in mind that a lot of wizards have "non-standard" given and/or family names. Mulciber, mentioned by Karakoff in his attempts to get himself out of Azkaban, could be any nationality. Also, _someone_ had to give Karakoff, a known ex-DE, that job as headmaster of Durmstrang, and that someone could have easily been a "deep cover" DE of Eastern/Central European background. We know the most about British Isles DEs because the books are set in Britain, and Potter & Co., (to borrow a bit of terminology from the only school stories I ever read before HP) are British themselves. Eric Oppen aka "Technomad." From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 17:53:43 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peeking ahead... In-Reply-To: <20010613143932.40698.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010613175343.50543.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20733 --- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote: > Imagine book 7 has just come out... how many > people will not be able > to resist looking at the final chapters to see who > is alive at the > end!?? > I for one know I will have no problem resisting that particular temptation. I've never done it before with any other boeok I've read why would I do it now? Danette Who reads books so fast it woould take her just as long to get to the end if she peeked. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bess_va at lycos.com Wed Jun 13 17:59:41 2001 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va at lycos.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:59:41 -0000 Subject: small wonderings In-Reply-To: <9g87f9+8719@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g89md+norj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20734 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > 2) I've always thought the MOM ban must be subject to some sort of parental override in wizarding households. They are all familiar with broomstick riding, for example (or doesn't this count?). I wondered that myself, about broomstick riding (otherwise kids wouldn't get to play quidditch), using a portkey (Quidditch Cup), Floo powder, etc. But still, F & G would have had to put an engorgement charm on the toffee sometime during the summer, unless they finished that part of the "project" the previous year at Hogwarts. > I don't believe in the significance of a godmother particularly. Practice varies by religious belief and afiliation, but in mainstream (ie non-religious) English culture, an the absence of brothers and sisters (Petunia might have turned it down), best friends are asked. Of course this begs the question, would Lily have even asked Petunia? This makes me curious; cause in many non-religious US households or non-Roman Catholic or Episcopal households you don't usually *get* a godparent (do Presbyterians or Lutherans have godparents?). Most plain vanilla protestant denominations here don't have "godparents"; for many, it's considered the entire congregation's respnsibility to uphold a childs religious education. I don't know about Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or Buddist ideas on this subject. If you're not Catholic or Episcopalian, and you have a "godparent" it's often what I referred to before, a close family friend, an honorific "aunt" or "uncle", who has no legal or religious authority, unless they have been designated "guardian" in the parent's will. That's why I was wondering why JKR called Sirius Harry's "godfather". If it's not a religious designation, then she'd get the same milage by using the term "best friend". From bess_va at lycos.com Wed Jun 13 18:11:46 2001 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va at lycos.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:11:46 -0000 Subject: small wonderings In-Reply-To: <9g872t+n2m2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g8ad2+hhlg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20735 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > Maybe Ron pulled a "I found him Mum. He's so tiny. I couldn't leave > him there all by himself." I like your idea...I'd forgotten that ploy. I think I tried it once or twice when I was 4 or 5. It didn't work for me, so I guess I forgot about it LOL. > I don't think the explosions were caused by wand magic. Harry's > potions supplies needed replenishing in GoF. I think Fred and George > used their potions supplies, household chemicals and things that can > be found around the Burrow. Lots of things can cause explosions if > ignited. There's a plant, called Borage, that when thrown on a fire it > will spark and make small explosive sounds. I imagine some of the > potions materials would do the same thing. I will not (!) tell my husband about borage, I have some in the herb garden, and I don't want it used in experiments LOL. But, but, but (LOL), doesn't the restriction on underage magic applies to undirected magic like blowing up Aunt Marge, not just wand magic, and they had to put an engorgement charm or potion to the toffee at some point. I want to meet Lily's friends also. I wonder why they haven't come out of the woodwork yet. I can understand if a friend tried to get in touch with the Dursleys after Harry came to them, and the Dursleys rebuffed 'em; but after Hagrid's photo project, I was surprised that Harry didn't get a least a note from *one* of Lily's friends (or James' friends for that matter, but now we know why). From linman6868 at aol.com Wed Jun 13 18:55:25 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:55:25 -0000 Subject: If You're Anxious For to Shine in the Dark-Art Fighting Line (filk) Message-ID: <9g8cut+5luk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20736 If You're Anxious For to Shine in the Dark-Art Fighting Line To the tune of "If You're Anxious for to Shine in the High Aesthetic Line" from PATIENCE by Gilbert and Sullivan Dedicated to Caius and Susan who recently outed themselves as CoS Lovers... Enter GILDEROY LOCKHART, scooting quickly into his office, conjuring trunks with exotic stamps on them and tossing all his belongings in willy-nilly. LOCKHART Am I alone, And unobserved? I am! Then let me own I'm a magical sham! This air of cheer Is but a mere Veneer! This winning smile Is but a wile Of guile! These robes are placed To feign good taste -- A waste! Let me confess! The casualty of students does NOT blight me! A magical entente does NOT delight me! I do NOT care for heroic scenes By any means. I do NOT want opportunities To scrape my knees. I am NOT fond of professing DADA -- To me, it's nada! In short, my heroism's affectation, Born of a morbid love of admiration! If you're anxious for to shine in the dark-art fighting line, as a man of talent rare, You must get up all the germs of Transfiguration terms, and plant them everywhere. You must stand upon the dais-es and discourse in novel phrases of the creatures that you find, The meaning doesn't matter if it's only idle chatter of a brave, yet modest, kind. And everyone will say As you walk your knowing way, "If this young man expresses greater bravery than ME, Why, what a very singularly brave young man this brave young man must be!" Be eloquent in praise of your roaring salad days which by no means have passed by, And the Bandon Banshee's eyes, and the werewolf's close demise are a blink in your turquoise eye. Of course you will pooh-pooh whatever others do, and declare you did it better; And you will get the meat of a far-off wizard's feat, and purloin it to the letter. And everyone will say, As you walk your hero's way, "If that's not wild enough for him that's wild enough for ME, Why, what a rootin' tootin' man this kind of man must be!" Then a sneaky kind of penchant for a permanent and trenchant Memory Charm must be your skill, To protect the name you're making from the charge of blatant faking made by those who wish you ill. Though the wizards may all snicker and declare you're truly thicker than the Gringott's main vault door, All the witches will applaud you and the tabloids will all laud you if you give them one smile more. And everyone will say, As you walk your handsome way, "If he's content with charm and looks which can't be had by me, Why what a most particularly unique man this unique man must be!" LOCKHART startles as a knock sounds upon his office door. He opens it, and find Harry and Ron waiting. --Lisa I. From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 19:08:15 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:08:15 -0000 Subject: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9g8dmv+ugc9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20737 It's in several of the online chats when she was asked what would Harry do after Hogwarts and her reply was always 'How do you know that Harry won't die?' You know, the hero sacrifice himself in order to stop Voldie ... Having said that, I still can't see how that would happen. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/12/2001 10:41:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > MMMfanfic at h... writes: > > << Since we are on the topic of death, what do you guys make of the JKR > frequent hinting of Harry's Death by the end of BK. 7? Red Herring? > Preparing us for the worst? > >> > > what hinting are you talking about? I really can't see her killing off Harry > ... the way she's set up the series as good vs. evil, with Harry symbolizing > good, killing him off would then be saying that evil does triumph over good, > and I just don't think that's what this series is about. > > Jami From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 13 19:22:58 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:22:58 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: small wonderings In-Reply-To: <9g8ad2+hhlg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000201c0f43e$41427d00$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 20738 >but after Hagrid's photo project, I was surprised that Harry didn't get a least a note from *one* of Lily's friends (or >James' friends for that matter, but now we know why). And talking of photos, why didn't Harry recognise Lupin from the wedding photos when they first met on the train, do you suppose? Susan From aiz24 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 19:37:47 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:37:47 -0400 Subject: Vampires - Who dies - Crush - R/H - Ages - Creeveys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20739 Koinonia wrote: >Well, you know how I am. I can't seem to get enough of those >vampires. >Draco also exibits some fine flying skills. True, he is not as good >as Harry, but then who is? If flying excellence is a sign of vampirism, maybe we should turn our vampire-seeking eyes toward Harry. Hmmm . . . not only does he fly well, but he has pale skin and black hair. Rebekah wrote: >For one thing (can't remember the *exact* words) >JKR said in a chat, something like "As if i would kill Harry's best >friend" about Ron.. Unfortunately, I don't think she said it quite like that. She observed that kids always ask her anxiously about Ron, and wondered why they all think he's going to die--she thought it was because the hero's best friend is so often the one to die in movies, etc. Let's hope that if she sees killing the hero's best friend as a cliche, she won't do it. I know, I need to write out a reality check to "self" and remember that Ron Weasley is just ink on a page. Remus Lupin, however, is real, and I'm not going to forgive CMC for his coldhearted prediction of disaster in that corner. One thing I'm sure of: JKR is going to kill people we really, really love. She is determined to make us feel the real impact of evil, and killing Cedric Diggory, as much as it might have upset her personally, doesn't do the trick. We're going to shed real tears before this saga comes to a close. MMMfanfic wrote: >Since we are on the topic of death, what do you guys make of the JKR >frequent hinting of Harry's Death by the end of BK. 7? Red Herring? >Preparing us for the worst? Three possibilities: (a) she's trying to write scary books and they're a lot scarier if you have a niggling fear that Harry might not get out of this particular dilemma alive. Naturally, we won't get really nervous 'til the end of Book 7--did anyone have the slightest doubt that Harry was going to get out of that graveyard intact?--but at least she can scare us about that. (b) she just wants to nudge our assumptions a bit--"don't think just 'cause the books are named for him, he's invulnerable" (anyone ever hear of Anna Karenina?) (c) she's a nasty, nasty person. Heidi the heretic wrote: >There's been NOTHING in book 4 to indicate that she is mooning over harry One thing. She stops smiling when Harry says he asked Cho to the ball, and then she is miserable when she has to say she can't go with Harry. You can interpret the latter as her being embarrassed that Ron's laughing at her date, and upset on Neville's behalf, but I don't see any explanation for the former except that she doesn't like hearing about Harry liking anyone else. I agree with Devika, though--I doubt her crush, even if it's still going strong, is the same as it was when she was 10. Devika wrote: >Harry has gotten used to the fact that Ginny likes him, just as he has >gotten used to being famous. Both of these things embarassed him before, >but now he seems to have accepted them. IMO, Harry is a lot =less= used to being famous in 4--he certainly seems to be feeling the burdens of fame more than at any other time. >Devika (who also thinks that those Potter men might just like redheads :)) Harry/Ron shippers, are you listening? Jim Ferer wrote: >JKR did say there's something going on, but it's *RON* who doesn't know it >yet ['typical boy', JKR says] meaning it's Hermione who "knows." It's possible that neither of them knows. I think Hermione may have twigged to it by now, but the only one we know for sure sees the picture is Harry. Steve wrote: >Ron was born on March 1, 1980, so he's five months older than Harry. I assume your confidence comes from the fact that it would be very unlikely for someone to start at Hogwarts a full 6 months before his 11th birthday? Or is there some other source that tells us for sure it's 1980? Melanie wrote: >Harry will be 15 in OOF..I figured this out because he turned 11 on July 31 >in >SS/PS...so that would make him 12 in COS...13 in POA..and 14 in GOF Correct, but that makes him just shy of 18 when he graduates. At the end of book 4 it's almost his 15th birthday; at the end of 5, his 16th; at the end of 6, his 17th; at the end of 7, his 18th. Jamieson wrote re: the brothers Creevey: >Anyone have any guesses why I dislike them? Because you were Greta Garbo in a former life and hate paparazzi? Amy Z ----------------------------------------------- Harry remembered how touchy Myrtle had always been about being dead, but none of the other ghosts he knew made such a fuss about it. -HP and the Goblet of Fire ----------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 19:47:23 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Many Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: <008d01c0f432$1e3f9740$f9c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <20010613194723.18788.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20740 --- Eric Oppen wrote: > Yes, that would be one way of doing it. I was > thinking more of how some > lodges, like the Masons, work (and this is NOT a > slam at the Masons, or any > existing lodge!!!) with lower-ranking members not > having all the "secret > knowledge" that you get as you rise in the ranks. > We don't know much about > Voldemort, but he might well be familiar enough with > Muggle culture to use > either system, or both. A cell system, combined > with a system of ranks, > would be very difficult for the Aurors to destroy > entirely; hence, the > number of DEs who managed to get away, after the > first fall of Voldemort. > > As for non-British DEs, keep in mind that a lot of > wizards have > "non-standard" given and/or family names. Mulciber, > mentioned by Karakoff > in his attempts to get himself out of Azkaban, could > be any nationality. > Also, _someone_ had to give Karakoff, a known ex-DE, > that job as headmaster > of Durmstrang, and that someone could have easily > been a "deep cover" DE of > Eastern/Central European background. > > We know the most about British Isles DEs because the > books are set in > Britain, and Potter & Co., (to borrow a bit of > terminology from the only > school stories I ever read before HP) are British > themselves. > > Eric Oppen > aka "Technomad." > > That's possible after all he(Tom Riddle) was raised in a Muggle orphanage so he would have been exposed to that culture first and we have seen that your average bad guy doesn't usually have any problems adopting any method they like for themselves regardless of where it comes from. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Jun 13 20:12:33 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:12:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP-related Games (was Re: Killing off Characters) In-Reply-To: <9g7rb1+egqj@eGroups.com> References: <9g6r6q+mgre@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613124718.00cb59d0@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20741 It seems to me this is much better -- Potterizing an existing game rather than trying to slap together a new one. We've talked before about the possibilty of a Hogwarts chess set, also I see Hogwarts playing cards as a possibility. I even worked out a "lineup", with one suit = one House, though the disproportionate number of Gryffindors and Slytherins forced me to allow some to spill over into other suits: Hearts (Gryffindor) A: Godric G. K: Dumbledore Q: McGonnegal J: Percy 10: Harry 9: Ron 8: Hermione 7: Ginny 6: Hagrid 5: Fred and George 4: Hedwig 3: Nearly-Headless Nick 2: The Great Hall Diamonds (Hufflepuff) A: Helga H. K: Moody Q: Sprout J: Cedric 10: Lupin 9: Lockhart 8: Quirrell 7: Ernie M. 6: Justin F-F. 5: Moaning Myrtle 4: Buckbeak 3: The Fat Friar 2: The Greenhouses Spades (Slytherin) A: Salazaar S. K: You-Know-Who Q: Mrs. Lestrange J: Snape 10: Lucius Malfoy 9: Draco Malfoy 8: Crabbe and Goyle 7: Pansy P. 6: Millicent B. 5: Wormtail 4: Dementor 3: The Bloody Baron 2: The Dungeons Clubs (Ravenclaw) A: Rowena R. K: Flitwick Q: Sinistra J: Penelope Clearwater 10: Sirius 9: Cho 8: Pavarti and Padma 7: Fleur 6: Viktor Krum 5: Madame Maxime 4: Norbert 3: The Grey Lady 2: The Owlery Jokers: Peeves, Dobby -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Jun 13 20:36:58 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:36:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore doesn't like snape In-Reply-To: <9g3n3o+kbc4@eGroups.com> References: <9g33re+qcqq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613133629.02f1a400@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20742 What about the converse? Do you think Snape likes Dumbledore? -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Jun 13 20:57:30 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:57:30 -0700 Subject: Peeping Moody? In-Reply-To: References: <9g1j74+ap7i@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613133753.02f9eee0@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20743 At 07:30 PM 6/10/01 -1000, Lemina O. wrote: >Moody said to him, "Nice socks," and it hit me after a few times and I >said to myself, "Hey! he can see through they're clothes too! Run for it!" >Exactly what can that magical eye of his see? My theory is that Moody's Eye can also see through flesh, so what he sees looks more like _Gray's Anatomy_ than _Playboy_... -- Dave From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jun 13 21:07:03 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:07:03 -0000 Subject: SHIP:(?) Re: Why *does* Hermione like Ron? In-Reply-To: <9g6mdn+gqr8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g8kln+83no@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20744 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" wrote: > And exactly *why* is the title of this message appropriate? I happen > to think that Hermione doesn't like Ron, and that just throws your > question off a bit, eh? That's exactly why I asked the question! I wanted to know what people thought. > > I know Jo said that something is going on between Ron and Hermione, > but I don't see that as saying that Ron's feelings are mutual. Just > that the feelings of at least one person are clear to both. Hermione > may not return Ron's feelings, but she does recognise them. I think I first became a R/H shipper because I "saw the signs" that JKR mentions online. I just couldn't quite figure out why she chose for something to go on between Ron and Hermione. I'll get back to that in a minute. When it comes to Harry and Ginny, I really want to see that happen. I feel that JKR has set up Ginny to be a good person - compassionate, patient, comforting... I see some of her traits as ones similar to Harry's: they are both modest, don't fight for the spotlight and generally don't antagonize others. Ginny is the underdog here, and I want to see her get something that will make her happy, and that thing would be Harry. Of course, Harry returning Ginny's feelings will enable me to remember all the unrequited crushes I had and to feel some satisfaction. Back to Hermione and Harry. I completely understand the H/H shipper debate (really, Penny, I do!), but I prefer them to be platonic. Harry needs Hermione's friendship more than he needs her kisses. I think I am also being biased because I have never developed feelings for anyone who was already a close friend, so I have trouble understanding that (my least favorite scene in "When Harry Met Sally" was when they slept together, and I still don't like that they married). I suppose I also simply do not, at this point, see any tensions between Harry and Hermione the way I see tensions between Ron and Hermione. I'd like to see their relationship (friendship or otherwise) be developed a bit more, though, because I am still not sure why they appear to be attracted to each other (Ron doesn't seem like my type at all). I'm also curious about what will come of Krum - I liked him so much more for liking Hermione! --jenny from ravenclaw******************* From bess_va at lycos.com Wed Jun 13 21:18:34 2001 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va at lycos.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:18:34 -0000 Subject: small wonderings In-Reply-To: <000201c0f43e$41427d00$0101010a@w98-1> Message-ID: <9g8lbb+6f0t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20745 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" wrote: > And talking of photos, why didn't Harry recognise Lupin from the wedding photos when they first met on the train, do you suppose? I figure its Harry being an teenage "guy" again. Remember, he didn't pay much attention to Sirius' picture in the wedding photos, until he finds out that Sirius was the best man. Harry doesn't seem to have any interest in anyone outside of his parents in the pictures. I would have been all over Hagrid like white on rice to know who the other people were in the photos. And we don't know how much Remus has aged physically from his late teens to early twenties to 35/36. We know he has some gray hair and some wrinkles lining his face, but when Harry first sees Remus on the train, Remus looks pretty bad. From bohners at pobox.com Wed Jun 13 21:34:00 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:34:00 -0400 Subject: No-ship Harry? Message-ID: <023401c0f450$930df3a0$638f23cf@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20746 I've been thinking some more about this question of who Harry might "end up with" by the end of the series, and I've come to the conclusion that I really doubt he'll end up with anybody. Think about it: over the next three books things are going to get darker and darker, and more and more pressure is going to be put on Harry simply to stay alive and keep his friends alive, let alone figure out how to stop Voldemort. With all of that weighing on his mind, how much time is he going to spend thinking about dating and romance? And even if Harry did have the time and energy to include a girlfriend in his life, do you think he would really want to put her through all the struggles and dangers that he is about to experience? What if Voldemort got hold of Harry's love and used her against him somehow? Or even if that wasn't a factor, wouldn't Harry be likely to think it pretty foolish and unfair to get involved romantically with a girl when he's right on the front lines of a war and doesn't even know if he's going to live through the next couple of years? I can see another teenaged boy throwing caution to the wind and starting up a romance anyway (*cough*Ron*cough*) but not Harry. He thinks too much, and he worries too much, to do that. So although I think Harry/Ginny would be nice, and I could even live with Harry/Hermione (although I think that's far too predictable and therefore not very interesting), I really doubt we're going to see anything serious develop for Harry along romantic lines. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From naama_gat at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 21:54:14 2001 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:54:14 -0000 Subject: Fat Slytherins? - Ugly Slytherins? - glasses - Pretty stereotypes In-Reply-To: <006401c0f184$8df51480$bf3570c2@c5s910j> Message-ID: <9g8ne6+5oj8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20747 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" wrote regarding the probability of Draco being good-looking: > > Assuming Harry's POV, I'm fairly sure that a boy of 10 or 11 would not describe another boy as "remarkably good looking," even inside his own head, and is much more likely to make a cursory assessment of looks. At that age, children are inclined to pick out a notable characteristic - whether that be a pale face, a pug nose or a pair of glasses bound up with tape - and define their friends and enemies in that way. > > Since our impressions of the other characters are, to a large extent, formed from the impressions made on Harry before he hit puberty, I think we hold to these stereotypes and caricatures until >we are told something to alter that view. I grant you that in real life children's impression of others is stereotypical. If Harry was actually the author of the Harry Potter books, then of course the descriptions of the various characters would indeed be the descriptions given by a child, and therefore limited and caricature-like. The books, however, are not written by Harry. They are written by an adult, who is using a literary techinque (Harry's POV) in crafting the story. I challenge anyone on this list (and your friends and relatives) to find ONE example where a character is described in one way at first, and later is revealed to be different (I'm referring here strictly to physical appearance). Counter examples, OTOH, abound: Snape: The perfect candidate for stereotypical, caricature like depiction due to the antagonism between him and Harry. But since Quirrel described him as an overgrown bat and Sirius referred to him as an oily haired kid, it seems that Snape looks exactly the way he's described from the beginning. Hagrid: A long time ago somebody pointed to Hagrid being described as twice as the height of a normal man as evidence to the Harry POV influence. Since then we've found that Hagrid is in fact a half giant. Nothing more likely than him being twice as tall and several times wide as a normal man (and, BTW, he's also described like that in the first chapter of PS, which is certainly not told from Harry's POV). Dudley: There's been a lot of talk here about Dudley's obesity and some said that he's described so grotesquely that it must be the effect of the Harry POV. Well, at the beginning of GoF we are told (FACTUALLY) that "the school outfitters didn't stock knickerbockers big enough for him any more." So, Dudley is as obese as he has been described from the get go. Fleur really is extradinarily beautiful (quarter Veela), Cedric really is remarkably good-looking (many people other than Harry refer to that), Cho really is pretty (she's very popular - and how many popular girsl are not pretty?, and she landed a date with the remarkably handsome, team-captain and Triwizard champion, Cedric Diggory)... Neil: >Personally, I doubt that the Slytherins as a group are any uglier than the Gryffindors; it's just that the Gryffindors are on Harry's side and the Slytherins are 'the enemy'. It's no surprise that he applies a different vocabulary to each. I think the same applies to the Dursleys and to the Hogwarts' staff. As a child, Harry notices singular things about the people around him, and it is only later, as a young teenager, that he starts to see them in a more >realistic light. > Again - what charcter is described one way in PS and another in GoF? AFAIR, the descriptions are remarkably stable. The characters start in PS as being pale -pointy-faced-silver-haired or huge-wild-hair-and-beard or obese-piggy-blond or tall-silver-beard-twinkly-eyes. And they remain exactly the same for the next three books. Sorry for the rant. But the Harry POV argument really pushes my button (if that's the expression). It's so easily assumed, it explains AWAY so much, and there is so little evidence to support it. Naama From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 22:18:17 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:18:17 -0000 Subject: No-ship Harry? In-Reply-To: <023401c0f450$930df3a0$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9g8or9+r78q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20748 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote: > I've been thinking some more about this question of who Harry might "end up > with" by the end of the series, and I've come to the conclusion that I > really doubt he'll end up with anybody. > > Think about it: over the next three books things are going to get darker > and darker, and more and more pressure is going to be put on Harry simply to > stay alive and keep his friends alive, let alone figure out how to stop > Voldemort. With all of that weighing on his mind, how much time is he going > to spend thinking about dating and romance? > > And even if Harry did have the time and energy to include a girlfriend in > his life, do you think he would really want to put her through all the > struggles and dangers that he is about to experience? What if Voldemort got > hold of Harry's love and used her against him somehow? Or even if that > wasn't a factor, wouldn't Harry be likely to think it pretty foolish and > unfair to get involved romantically with a girl when he's right on the front > lines of a war and doesn't even know if he's going to live through the next > couple of years? I can see another teenaged boy throwing caution to the > wind and starting up a romance anyway (*cough*Ron*cough*) but not Harry. He > thinks too much, and he worries too much, to do that. > > So although I think Harry/Ginny would be nice, and I could even live with > Harry/Hermione (although I think that's far too predictable and therefore > not very interesting), I really doubt we're going to see anything serious > develop for Harry along romantic lines. > -- > Rebecca J. Bohner > rebeccaj at p... > http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN THINKING THE SAME THING! NOT SO MUCH IN TERMS OF REASONS FOR IT, BUT I WOULD NOT BUT SURPRISED IF HARRY WAS NOT "SPOKEN FOR" IN ANY WAY BY THE CONCLUSION OF BOOK 7. HE MAY HAVE SOME SHORT-LIVED RELATIONSHIPS IN THE MEANTIME BETWEEN NOW AND THEN...HMMM. (I EXPERIENCED A NECK/BACK STRAIN TODAY...SHOULD REALLY GO BACK TO BEDREST AGAIN...BUT FELT THE NEED TO REPLY AT THIS TIME). MAYBE I'LL TAKE THIS UP AGAIN LATER. ANYHOW, WE'LL SEE. THANKS FOR THE CLEVER THOUGHTS. N ;) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 13 22:19:28 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:19:28 -0000 Subject: No-ship Harry? In-Reply-To: <023401c0f450$930df3a0$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9g8otg+r8tp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20749 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote: > > Voldemort. With all of that weighing on his mind, how much time is he going > to spend thinking about dating and romance? > > And even if Harry did have the time and energy to include a girlfriend in > his life, do you think he would really want to put her through all the struggles and dangers that he is about to experience? That argument is used often in fiction as a rationale for keeping the hero unattached and the author's life simple, but I'm not at all sure JKR is going there. She wants to show what it's really like to resist evil. So I would think that Harry would want all the friends he can get and all the pleasures life allows, *especially* if he's thinking it could all be taken away from him. And nobody can spend * all* their time worrying about what is to come. Our putative love interest will surely argue that Voldemort is just as likely to target the innocent and uninvolved: the unicorn, Mrs. Norris, Penelope, Justin, Cedric etc. And Harry will need, most definitely, to be able to share what he's going through. So far, both Harry and Ron seem to have the attitude that puberty will go away if they quit thinking about it, but I can't see JKR introducing the subject of Harry's feelings about girls at all if they're not going to be developed any further. Pippin From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 22:25:26 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's death, wizards internet, Young love In-Reply-To: <125.42c313.2858e95b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010613222526.41323.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20750 Rebekah: Ok, first I wanna clear something up. I doubt *very* much if Ron will die in the books. Plus, I think if she did ever kill any or all of the trio, she'd have hoards of angry fans on her doorstep *vbeg* I agree with you..I know I'd be dissatisfied. But i could see one of them dying in the end..I mean if they die an honorable death..and a good cause..then I don't think it would be that bad. However, I think the without Ron or Hermione the books would have a major aspect of them missing. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 22:31:40 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron and Hermione In-Reply-To: <9g85gk+fvui@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613223140.23863.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20751 It's easy to say that once you have cleared all this out of the way, the field is wide open for a romantic relationship, either R/H, or H/H, or with outside people. This would be true if romance existed on a separate plane independent of life. In fact (IMO), Ron and Hermione's mutual frustration at not hearing the appreciation they want from each other is actually drawing them together. Harry's detachment is taking him out of the frame. This is why it is hard to interpret Hermione's comments and body language over Fleur. It's not that she has feelings for Ron and so is jealous, or just that she is contemptuous of Ron's behaviour - rather, her reaction to his behaviour is what is *creating* her feelings. David, jumping into the water Yeah that's it....I thik this is the best statement that has been made on this topic. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika261 at aol.com Wed Jun 13 22:32:26 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:32:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) Message-ID: <38.17872cb7.285943fa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20752 In a message dated 6/13/01 9:03:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net writes: > [Jennye Laws-Woolf] As I was reading GoF the 2nd time and was reading the > description of the clock, I couldn't help but think that she was > foreshadowing a time when "mortal peril" was going to be used to describe at > least one of the Weasley's at one point. Just a thought: hasn't Ron's hand ever pointed to "mortal peril"? He has been in a fair amount of dangerous situations. Wouldn't Mrs. Weasley have noticed? I presume Ginny's hand pointed to "mortal peril" when Tom Riddle took her prisoner. I wonder if the Weasleys knew about that before Dumbledore contacted them (as I presume he did). Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika261 at aol.com Wed Jun 13 22:39:55 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:39:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's age Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20753 In a message dated 6/13/01 10:43:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dfrankis at dial.pipex.com writes: > Our son was expected on 3rd Sept, and arrived on 25th August. As a > result he went into a different academic year to all the other (Early > September) babies in our National Childbirth Trust classes. The > system isn't enforced particularly - it just happens with a high > degree of accuracy. > The system works in strange ways. My birthday is on November 14, and I was always in a class with some people who were around my age and some who were nearly a year older than I was. I graduated from high school at 17 (I started kindergarten when I was 4). Actually, I had a friend who was one grade lower than I was but a couple of months older. It all depended on whether the parents of the child wanted him or her to start school "early." I doubt that the parents have much say in the timing of Hogwarts admission, but Hermione is certainly bright enough to start at a slightly younger age, which, IMO, doesn't matter much anyway. Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Jun 13 23:00:05 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:00:05 -0000 Subject: If You're Anxious For to Shine in the Dark-Art Fighting Line (filk) In-Reply-To: <9g8cut+5luk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g8r9l+t7u2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20754 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > If You're Anxious For to Shine in the Dark-Art Fighting Line > > To the tune of "If You're Anxious for to Shine in the High Aesthetic > Line" from PATIENCE by Gilbert and Sullivan > > Dedicated to Caius and Susan who recently outed themselves as CoS > Lovers... > An object all sublime! - CMC (also a G&S lover) From devika261 at aol.com Wed Jun 13 23:06:38 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:06:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) Message-ID: <120.44223e.28594bfe@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20755 In a message dated 6/13/01 10:50:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk writes: > Imagine book 7 has just come out... how many people will not be able > to resist looking at the final chapters to see who is alive at the > end!?? > I probably wouldn't actually *read* the final chapters right away, but I would probably peek at the last few pages just to see who was there. I actually did that with GoF. There seemed to be a lot of fan sites that thought that George Weasley would be the one to die, so I was relieved when I glanced at the last page of GoF and saw George speaking. I was even more relieved when I saw that Fred was there as well, as were Ron and Hermione. I sometimes read the last page of a book before I start reading the book, but I don't know if I would do that with HP. Although I would like to be prepared for who dies, I don't know if I would be able to handle it if I knew right away, especially if it was a character I really liked. Unfortunately, I've become very attached to quite a few characters, and while I really wish they would all survive, I know that they won't. So I'd better have a box of tissues with me when I'm reading the next 3 books... Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk Wed Jun 13 23:35:02 2001 From: robertc at redjac.fsnet.co.uk (Robert Carnegie) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:35:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and Astrology Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20756 12/06/01 22:04:21, rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com wrote: >BTW, I have been told through a private email that work has indeed >been done on Harry Potter's astrological background before...on this >site. If this is indeed the case, I will look up the old messages >that someone referred me to...thanks. If the stars are on topic at the moment, we should probably acknowledge the fact that "Mars is bright tonight; unusually bright" - or so it's alleged. But I just went out for a look and it's too cloudy to see. At Glasgow's latitude it's also very close to the horizon, about 10 degrees up, or maybe outright invisible. Should be due south at midnight, a mere 42 million miles over thataway, I think. I suppose Mars will still be nearly as bright tomorrow night, and for a while longer. If anyone sees an unexpected spurt of flame from the place, give a shout. Robert Carnegie Meretricious! From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 23:35:07 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gilding the Lily In-Reply-To: <9g82ms+9mej@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010613233507.84746.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20757 > 3.) where are Lily's girlfriends? and particularly, where's > Harry's godmother? I have another question: where's Lily? We hear lots about James as a boy but it's inconceivable to me that Lily - who attended the same school in presumably the same years - is still a blank except for the colour of her eyes. I really find it hard to believe that Harry has so little curiousity about his parents or that it was satisfied so easily with a book of wedding pics and a hand-me-down invisibility cloak. JKR must be saving things up. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From lilith_snape at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 23:54:06 2001 From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:54:06 -0000 Subject: Does Snape like Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613133629.02f1a400@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9g8ueu+1dqu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20758 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > What about the converse? Do you think Snape likes Dumbledore? > > > > -- Dave I was just going to post a counter-question like that...Actually, I think Snape owes Dumbledore too much to be able to like him entirely. Respect him, yes. Obey him, yes. But *like* him, I don't know. We know how much Snape hates to be indebted to other people and I also believe that a tad of the hatred he feels towards Harry has something to do with the debt he still feels he's got to pay James back. James only did what anyone with a decent brain would have done- (sorry, I don't count him braver than average...) and as far as we know, Albus Dumbledore must have done something far bigger. Dumbledore forgave Snape for being a Death Eater, made him a spy and gave him a job at Hogwarts (in a time when I *do* believe that the name Severus Snape wasn't associated with anything positive in the wizarding world)- just imagine what a debt for Snape to pay back! I imagine him being pretty grateful of course, but also, and more importantly- angry with Albus for doing what he did. "Damn you for making me owe you all this, Albus Dumbledore!" I understand him. Who would want to have such a thing pressuring you all your life? Knowing that this certain person saved your skin at a point when you were unsaveable and being forced to spend the rest of your existence paying back. :-( That's my theory. Lilith From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 23:54:23 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermione's GOF Appearance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010613235423.56349.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20759 --- Vicky Ra wrote: > But unlike most of you here, I > thought it was touching how > she dressed up for the Yule ball. I really liked Hermione's Cinderella appearance at the ball. I thought it actually said quite a bit about her character, in that she can actually be quite lovely, and knows that, yet doesn't bother making a fuss about it unless it's a special occasion. She thinks she's perfectly fine without all that mess of hair gel and whatever else she had to do in those hours she prepared for the Ball, and that's something to admire. > P.S. To the person who said she'd never heard the > name "Hermione" before, > thus the conclusion of her being a light-colored > black, it's taken from > mythology on the Trojan War. Hermione was Menelaus > and Helen's daughter Actually, the first time I'd ever heard the name Hermione was when I studied Shakespeare's "A Winter's Tale". Queen Hermione dies at the end of the first act after her husband accused her of cheating on him with his best friend. At the end of the play, it's revealed that she has actually been in hiding the whole time, waiting for her husband to come to his senses and grovel appropriately. [g] This brings me to an interesting parallel for those of us cruising on the good ship R/H. ;) Many have mentioned the scenario of Ron finally realizing how he feels about Hermione, only to believe that she is in love with Harry. So we turn Ron into the king from Winter's Tale, accusing the woman he loves of cheating on him with his best friend. Then something awful happens, possibly as a result of Ron's accusation, and Hermione is thought dead. Ron has to suffer with knowing that he caused her death *and* falsely accused her and Harry. [eg] But in the end, of course, she is found alive and they live happily ever after. ;) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From lilith_snape at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 00:05:34 2001 From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:05:34 -0000 Subject: No-ship Harry? In-Reply-To: <023401c0f450$930df3a0$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9g8v4e+ceaq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20760 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote: > I've been thinking some more about this question of who Harry might "end up > with" by the end of the series, and I've come to the conclusion that I > really doubt he'll end up with anybody. Agree. It wouldn't even fit the style of the books, IMO. JRK will hopefully let us see some ideas or hints of love, but probably in a humoristic way. Supported by Love Potions, maybe? *LOL* Seriously, I think that *if* a love plot will exist, it will be a character like Snape or McGonagall who'll fall for someone and cause laughs, not romantic sighs. At least that's what I hope. Am I the only one who doesn't give the "who will end up with who" thoughts more than a short time before rejecting them? I don't care the slightest bit about the different ships between the 'kids' either. I'd like to see Hermione charming the poor Millicent Bulstrode though. How likely is that to happen? > Rebecca J. Bohner > rebeccaj at p... > http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj --- Lilith From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 00:29:44 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who dies in Bk 5 (was Has anyone thought of this?) In-Reply-To: <120.44223e.28594bfe@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010614002944.59966.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20761 Imagine book 7 has just come out... how many people will not be able > to resist looking at the final chapters to see who is alive at the > end!?? > I'm not going to peak..or atleast I"m going to try and not peak. I remember I did peak in GOF because my friend Mike was playing with my head(cuz he knows how much I really like Ron) that Ron was going to be the one who died. I was like soo nervous...but then I eliminated him from my list..but then I thought it was going to be George or Fred. so I sneaked a glimpse at the last page..just to make sure that all my boys were still there LOL Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 00:39:20 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] No-ship Harry? In-Reply-To: <023401c0f450$930df3a0$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: <20010614003920.75129.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20762 Well I disagree...but not completely.. Will we actually see Harry with a girlfriend..will he actually "date" in the book? No I doubt it. But I think we will see Ginny(or Hermione) become closer to him during the course of the books. And at the end of the we might see a kiss either before or after voldemort has been defeated. However, I think most of it will be left to the imagination..or to the epilogue...because JK Rowling said the 7th book is going to be like an encyclopedia, because she wants everyone to know what is going to happen to all of her charactes. Melanie --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vderark at bccs.org Thu Jun 14 00:52:34 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:52:34 -0000 Subject: small wonderings In-Reply-To: <9g87f9+8719@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g91si+3stu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20763 > > > > 2.) How do Fred and George design/develop their pranks if they're > not allowed to use magic during the vacations? > > > 2) I've always thought the MOM ban must be subject to some sort of > parental override in wizarding households. They are all familiar > with broomstick riding, for example (or doesn't this count?). In any > case, Mafalda Hopkirk can only tell that magic is performed, not who > did it. It may not apply above, say, fifth year. Good suggestions. I've always figured that the Ministry issues that order and relies on parents or guardians to enforce it. I can't imagine that someone in the Ministry actually watches over each and every Wizard family from afar for signs of underage magic. I think it's a law without teeth...except that in Harry's case, it really, really matters. I imagine that part of what protects Harry at the Dursleys is that they are so completely opposite of magical (and are even described as such). Any magic done might give Harry away or break some of his protections, so in his case they actually DO watch. I expect that if he told the tale of the owlpost from Hopkirk, most of his friends would be amazed, since they'd probably all tried a little magic here and there behind the barn or whatever and never had an instant mail from the Ministry. Although they might just watch Neville, too. You never know when he'll melt another cauldron, especially with that influx of cheap, foreign-made cauldrons with thin bottoms... Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Jun 14 00:51:05 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:51:05 -0000 Subject: No-ship Harry? In-Reply-To: <023401c0f450$930df3a0$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9g91pp+7nim@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20764 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote: I really doubt we're going to see anything serious > develop for Harry along romantic lines. Hmm, what you wrote makes a lot of sense and I've thought about that, but I think that Harry will experience something more than a crush on Cho (the unattainable) by the end of book 7. Someone (Pippin?) made an excellent point that JKR would not have introduced Harry's blooming interest in girls if it was to lead nowhere. Besides, he is 14 going on 15 - what boy isn't incredibly horny at that age? When I taught the 9th grade (which I hated) one of my students yelled out in the middle of class one day "Miss! ARE YOU A VIRGIN?". Believe me, boys at that age can hardly control their hormones (as far as what they think about, I mean), and I'm sure Harry has fantasized about Cho much more intimately than imagining her watching him as a Hogwarts Champion (unless he was already imagining her applauding him while she was completely naked). Harry's pretty normal; I'm sure he wants to experience getting kissed as much as Ron does. I just think JKR approaches the topic very tactfully. --jenny from ravenclaw*************************** From hermionekicks at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 14 00:58:39 2001 From: hermionekicks at yahoo.co.uk (hermionekicks at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:58:39 -0000 Subject: Lilly a Lesbian? In-Reply-To: <20010613233507.84746.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g927v+vr9v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20765 Hello, newbie here does anyone feel that jkrowling should have more lesbianism and gay stuff in her books cus i think it would be really cool! i mean, the gay culture and the gay community need to have mroe gay representation in stuff that so like mainstream, so that it like gets more out there in the world and stuff. so it would be interesting if we used hp for like maybe a union between the gay and the straight and showed the world that we can all get a long. would that be cool, i think so! let me knowwhat you guys thing k? Hermy Sue From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 01:19:06 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:19:06 -0000 Subject: No-ship Harry? In-Reply-To: <9g91pp+7nim@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g93ea+2cm4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20766 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" > wrote: > I really doubt we're going to see anything serious > > develop for Harry along romantic lines. > > Hmm, what you wrote makes a lot of sense and I've thought about that, > but I think that Harry will experience something more than a crush on > Cho (the unattainable) by the end of book 7. > > Someone (Pippin?) made an excellent point that JKR would not have > introduced Harry's blooming interest in girls if it was to lead > nowhere. Besides, he is 14 going on 15 - what boy isn't incredibly > horny at that age? When I taught the 9th grade (which I hated) one of > my students yelled out in the middle of class one day "Miss! ARE YOU A > VIRGIN?". Believe me, boys at that age can hardly control their > hormones (as far as what they think about, I mean), and I'm sure Harry > has fantasized about Cho much more intimately than imagining her > watching him as a Hogwarts Champion (unless he was already imagining > her applauding him while she was completely naked). Harry's pretty > normal; I'm sure he wants to experience getting kissed as much as Ron > does. I just think JKR approaches the topic very tactfully. > > --jenny from ravenclaw*************************** SINCE THIS TOPIC IS RECEIVING CONTINUED ATTENTION AND NOW WE'RE DISCUSSING CHO--ISN'T CHO A YEAR AHEAD OF HARRY AT HOGWARTS? JUST CHECKING. (THE NECK IS IMPROVING BUT COULD STILL USE SOME REST). N ;) From promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 01:38:46 2001 From: promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com (promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:38:46 -0000 Subject: Do you get... Message-ID: <9g94j6+mklb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20767 that suspicious look from your significant other any time you refer to the Harry Potter books??? My boyfriend is getting crazy at me cause everything I talk about (or so he says) refers to Harry Potter. He bought the first book for me as a christmas gift and now that I am so much into it he thinks he has created a monster. I must say that prior to reading the books (3 times each so far) I was a really rational 27 year old accountant ;) To say that I was never a groupie to anything before is an understatement and now I just can't wait for book 5 to come out and that November 16th seems so far away (don't look for me on November 16th cause I will be at the movie theater). JK Rowling what have you done to me :) Not that I don't enjoy it, right. Anyways, I am happy to see that I am not the only rational adult to LOVE Harry Potter. Bye Patricia From bohners at pobox.com Thu Jun 14 01:26:28 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:26:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: No-ship Harry? References: <9g8otg+r8tp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <034c01c0f473$58868080$638f23cf@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20768 > > And even if Harry did have the time and energy to include a girlfriend in > > his life, do you think he would really want to put her through all the > > struggles and dangers that he is about to experience? > That argument is used often in fiction as a rationale for keeping > the hero unattached and the author's life simple I don't know what's so simple about not writing a romance. Me, I find it terribly hard to avoid. :) > She wants to show what it's really like to > resist evil. Exactly. It's tough, it's scary, and it often means making sacrifices. Including the sacrifice of your personal pleasures and many of the usual expectations of youth. > And nobody can spend *all* their time worrying about what is to come. No, but like I said, Harry is a worrier and he does tend to take things pretty seriously. Of course, he's also been known to go into complete denial when under stress (witness his behaviour with the egg-clue for the Second Task, for instance), but I don't think he would do that where the welfare of other people, particularly people he really cares about, is concerned. I'm not saying I WANT Harry to be alone -- I think it would be lovely if he did find someone he could really love and trust with his deepest feelings -- but I am saying that given Harry's particular disposition and behaviour to date, as well as the uniquely precarious situation in which he has been placed, I will be very much surprised if he gets into a serious relationship before the end of the series. > So far, both Harry and Ron seem to have the attitude that puberty > will go away if they quit thinking about it, but I can't see JKR > introducing the subject of Harry's feelings about girls at all if > they're not going to be developed any further. Oh, I'm not saying the feelings will go away, or that JKR won't mention them again. I am saying that I think Harry will deliberately grit his teeth and suppress his feelings because he feels it's the best thing to do, and that will make our knowledge of his very natural adolescent longings that much more poignant. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From bohners at pobox.com Thu Jun 14 01:42:54 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:42:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does Snape like Dumbledore? References: <9g8ueu+1dqu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <034f01c0f473$59d4ab60$638f23cf@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20769 > I was just going to post a counter-question like that...Actually, I > think Snape owes Dumbledore too much to be able to like him entirely. > Respect him, yes. Obey him, yes. But *like* him, I don't know. I don't know. From everything I've seen of Snape's interactions with Dumbledore, he's not merely warily deferential or coldly respectful, he really seems to care very much what Dumbledore thinks, and be almost pathetically eager for his understanding and approval. I wouldn't say that Snape likes Dumbledore -- I'd say that he loves* him. There doesn't seem to be any resentment in Snape's behaviour toward Dumbledore, and although I agree with you that Snape owes D. a huge debt, it doesn't seem to weigh on him the way that his debt to James did. Unless you have some examples in mind from canon that would indicate Snape's view of Dumbledore is tinged with bitterness -- I personally can't think of any. I've said before and I'll say it again: when Dumbledore goes (as I believe he will, and soon -- my money's on the end of Book 5), I don't think anyone will grieve for him more deeply than Severus Snape. But being Snape, he'll never let us see that grief, either. He'll suffer in silence, and he'll suffer alone. Taking out a handkerchief and blowing my nose very loudly, -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj *No, not in a slashy way. In a fatherly-mentorly way. Sheesh. From s_ings at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 02:25:28 2001 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do you get... In-Reply-To: <9g94j6+mklb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010614022528.15492.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20770 I not only get the suspicious look, I get the rolling eyes and everything else from my husband - especially when he comes home from work and finds me reading fanfiction! And he's the one who bought me the books for our anniversary last year, even though he knew I'd already read them all. BTW, Patricia, where in Canada are you? (I'm in Ottawa). Sheryll, who will also be at the movies on Nov. 16 --- promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com wrote: > that suspicious look from your significant other any > time you refer > to the Harry Potter books??? My boyfriend is > getting crazy at me > cause everything I talk about (or so he says) refers > to Harry Potter. > > He bought the first book for me as a christmas gift > and now that I am > so much into it he thinks he has created a monster. > I must say that > prior to reading the books (3 times each so far) I > was a really > rational 27 year old accountant ;) > > To say that I was never a groupie to anything before > is an > understatement and now I just can't wait for book 5 > to come out and > that November 16th seems so far away (don't look for > me on November > 16th cause I will be at the movie theater). > > JK Rowling what have you done to me :) Not that I > don't enjoy it, > right. > > Anyways, I am happy to see that I am not the only > rational adult to > LOVE Harry Potter. > > Bye > > Patricia > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the > HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for > everyone to sort through the messages they want to > read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read > OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to > join now! For more details, contact the Moderator > Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ===== "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 14 02:27:26 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:27:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP:(?)Re: No-ship Harry? In-Reply-To: <023401c0f450$930df3a0$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9g97ee+lmrg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20771 I don't think this is a ship post, but at the risk of making our moderators angry (or forcing Neil to rummage for his hairnet) I'm going to put it anyway. Rebecca wrote: "I've been thinking some more about this question of who Harry might "end up with" by the end of the series, and I've come to the conclusion that I really doubt he'll end up with anybody." --Actually I agree, and I think most people do, despite what ship they sail on. :-) Harry's going to have a lot of tough decisions and situations in the next three books. Things aren't going to be easy, and I think you are right in saying that he'll stay away of romantic relationships because of that. But as a H/H shipper I think I should add that none of us expect to see our preference come from Jo's pen. For me at least it's more of a post-canon/fanfiction thing. Ron's feelings for Hermione are obvious to the reader, though there is still some debate as to whether they are aware of it themselves. Harry's crush on Cho is just that- a crush. Ultimetly I think that Harry may (*if* he survives, and I still think that it's an if) have the blossoming of romance in his life, and a bright future at the end of book seven. Whether it appears to be with Hermione, or Ginny or anybody. He *will* have battle scars though, and lots of issues to work out. "So although I think Harry/Ginny would be nice, and I could even live with Harry/Hermione (although I think that's far too predictable and therefore not very interesting), I really doubt we're going to see anything serious develop for Harry along romantic lines." --That's funny because I see R/H and H/G as more predictable. OBHWF and all that. The point is that I agree with you. I don't think we'll see Harry in any serious romantic relationship in canon. Scott From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 14 02:32:20 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:32:20 -0000 Subject: Do you get... In-Reply-To: <20010614022528.15492.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g97nk+qgud@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20772 Hello All!!!!! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend wrote: > I not only get the suspicious look, I get the rolling > eyes and everything else from my husband - especially > when he comes home from work and finds me reading > fanfiction! And he's the one who bought me the books > for our anniversary last year, even though he knew I'd > already read them all. > > BTW, Patricia, where in Canada are you? (I'm in > Ottawa). > > Sheryll, who will also be at the movies on Nov. 16 > Yeah, have to agree with this...Mitch usually says "But you've already READ them!" or the ever popular, "you don't need more than ONE copy!" and that kind of thing. He even asked, "What's so great about HP?".....(gasp)....I slapped him for this one, let me tell you!!! I was furious!!! but it's all good, cus HP is wonderful!!! I'm in a wierd mood, but that's all good too! Hugs to all (and I'm in Ottawa too, and Sheryll, are we going to the movies together???) Jamieson From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 14 02:34:07 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:34:07 -0000 Subject: Lilly a Lesbian? In-Reply-To: <9g927v+vr9v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g97qv+hua2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20773 Hello All!!!!! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hermionekicks at y... wrote: > Hello, newbie here does anyone feel that jkrowling should have more > lesbianism and gay stuff in her books cus i think it would be really > cool! i mean, the gay culture and the gay community need to have mroe > gay representation in stuff that so like mainstream, so that it like > gets more out there in the world and stuff. so it would be interesting > if we used hp for like maybe a union between the gay and the straight > and showed the world that we can all get a long. would that be cool, i > think so! let me knowwhat you guys thing k? > > Hermy Sue Um.....is anyone else wondering where this is coming from? I know that I was lost there for a moment...How exactly does HP relate to the gay culture, and what have I missed? Sigh, Hugs Jamieson From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 02:51:30 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly a Lesbian? In-Reply-To: <9g97qv+hua2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010614025130.5787.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20774 Hi Jamieson, I only just read the same email as you did from Hermy Sue and I don't know if anybody else did mention anything about those issues? Where HP is listed as a children's Book, who knows if JK Rowling would go into the gay line of plots. Maybe if she writes something geared towards the adult fans, she might through in all kinds of plot lines! Something for everybody! But I don't think she would with a children's book line. To many parents would revolt like a certain someone who will not be named! But you never know what she has going on in her HP world and if she does do some books only for the adult level group. Your thoughts Jamieson? Hugs to you too! Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts --- Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve wrote: > Hello All!!!!! > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hermionekicks at y... wrote: > > Hello, newbie here does anyone feel that jkrowling > should have more > > lesbianism and gay stuff in her books cus i think > it would be really > > cool! i mean, the gay culture and the gay > community need to have > mroe > > gay representation in stuff that so like > mainstream, so that it like > > gets more out there in the world and stuff. so it > would be > interesting > > if we used hp for like maybe a union between the > gay and the > straight > > and showed the world that we can all get a long. > would that be cool, > i > > think so! let me knowwhat you guys thing k? > > > > Hermy Sue > > > Um.....is anyone else wondering where this is coming > from? I know that > I was lost there for a moment...How exactly does HP > relate to the gay > culture, and what have I missed? > > Sigh, > > Hugs > Jamieson > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 14 03:05:48 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:05:48 -0000 Subject: Gilding the Lily In-Reply-To: <20010613233507.84746.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g99mc+gbaq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20775 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich wrote: > > 3.) where are Lily's girlfriends? and particularly, where's > > Harry's godmother? > > I have another question: where's Lily? We hear lots about James as a > boy but it's inconceivable to me that Lily - who attended the same > school in presumably the same years - is still a blank except for the > colour of her eyes. > > I really find it hard to believe that Harry has so little curiousity > about his parents or that it was satisfied so easily with a book of > wedding pics and a hand-me-down invisibility cloak. JKR must be > saving things up. IIRC, JKR has said in interviews that we will start learning a great deal about Lily Potter in Book Five (and we will get a startling revelation about her in Book Seven). In "real-life" terms it makes little sense that a child whose greatest longing is to see his parents to have so little curiosity about them - But HP is fiction, not real-life, and most conform to narrative rules. If Harry "wanted" to know all about his parents, he would have applied the same energy he used to unearth the identity of Nicholas Flamel - but JKR must withhold certain information from Harry (and therefore from the reader) to make the narrative more suspenseful and interesting. Prisoner of Azkaban would have been much less interesting if we had learned all about the Marauder's Map in Book 1. - CMC A glass of peel and pip for Mr. Potter of Texas, please. - Finnegans Wake, p. 274 From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 03:07:25 2001 From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (Adrienne Nicole Williams) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:07:25 -0000 Subject: Lilly a Lesbian? In-Reply-To: <20010614025130.5787.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g99pd+jv5d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20776 Hey y'all, I've heard *tons* of stuff about JKR doing gay lines, sex lines, etc. And, for the record, she wouldn't do that. She has a daughter of her own and she knows that if she *did* do something like that, Harry Potter would be sunk. I agree with Wanda about Jo writing something with those plot lines in it and gearing it towards adults, but she's already said that she's not doing any "Harry Potter Post School" books. I have no clue if that means she's not writing period or if she's just not making the characters HP. Just a thought. And, if anyone takes this offensively, I'm sorry. It's *not* supposed to sound like that, but I'm tired and my day starts early. TTYL, Adrienne --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Wanda Mallett wrote: > Hi Jamieson, I only just read the same email as you > did > from Hermy Sue and I don't know if anybody else did > mention anything about those issues? Where HP is > listed as a children's Book, who knows if JK Rowling > would go into the gay line of plots. Maybe if she > writes something geared towards the adult fans, she > might through in all kinds of plot lines! Something > for everybody! But I don't think she would with a > children's book line. To many parents would revolt > like a certain someone who will not be named! But you > never know what she has going on in her HP world and > if she does do some books only for the adult level > group. > > Your thoughts Jamieson? > Hugs to you too! > > Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve > wrote: > > Hello All!!!!! > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hermionekicks at y... wrote: > > > Hello, newbie here does anyone feel that jkrowling > > should have more > > > lesbianism and gay stuff in her books cus i think > > it would be really > > > cool! i mean, the gay culture and the gay > > community need to have > > mroe > > > gay representation in stuff that so like > > mainstream, so that it like > > > gets more out there in the world and stuff. so it > > would be > > interesting > > > if we used hp for like maybe a union between the > > gay and the > > straight > > > and showed the world that we can all get a long. > > would that be cool, > > i > > > think so! let me knowwhat you guys thing k? > > > > > > Hermy Sue > > > > > > Um.....is anyone else wondering where this is coming > > from? I know that > > I was lost there for a moment...How exactly does HP > > relate to the gay > > culture, and what have I missed? > > > > Sigh, > > > > Hugs > > Jamieson > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 14 03:13:59 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:13:59 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Gay Culture (was: Lilly a lesbian?) In-Reply-To: <9g99pd+jv5d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g9a5o+j698@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20777 Hello All, well, I've often wondered if JKR would put something "gay related" into her books. I mean, she seems have someone of everyone that we can recognize...a panorama of people. But all the children at Hogwarts are really too young yet to know about anything like sexual preferences and the like. I also think it's a pretty pointless conversation, really. I mean, the books are still amazing,a nd JKR probably has her own reasons for not covering the gay culture, most likely because is would confuse things, and would really not be part of the story... ....that's what fanfic is for!!! Hugs Jamieson From promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 03:19:48 2001 From: promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com (promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:19:48 -0000 Subject: Do you get... In-Reply-To: <20010614022528.15492.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9g9agk+10e0f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20778 Hi Sheryll, I am in Montreal and just about to go buy the books in English so it will at least sound a little new to me (I have read the books in French) Happy to know I am not the only one out there :) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend wrote: > I not only get the suspicious look, I get the rolling > eyes and everything else from my husband - especially > when he comes home from work and finds me reading > fanfiction! And he's the one who bought me the books > for our anniversary last year, even though he knew I'd > already read them all. > > BTW, Patricia, where in Canada are you? (I'm in > Ottawa). > > Sheryll, who will also be at the movies on Nov. 16 > > --- promeneuse2000 at y... wrote: > > that suspicious look from your significant other any > > time you refer > > to the Harry Potter books??? My boyfriend is > > getting crazy at me > > cause everything I talk about (or so he says) refers > > to Harry Potter. > > > > He bought the first book for me as a christmas gift > > and now that I am > > so much into it he thinks he has created a monster. > > I must say that > > prior to reading the books (3 times each so far) I > > was a really > > rational 27 year old accountant ;) > > > > To say that I was never a groupie to anything before > > is an > > understatement and now I just can't wait for book 5 > > to come out and > > that November 16th seems so far away (don't look for > > me on November > > 16th cause I will be at the movie theater). > > > > JK Rowling what have you done to me :) Not that I > > don't enjoy it, > > right. > > > > Anyways, I am happy to see that I am not the only > > rational adult to > > LOVE Harry Potter. > > > > Bye > > > > Patricia > > > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the > > HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for > > everyone to sort through the messages they want to > > read and those they don't. > > > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read > > OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to > > join now! For more details, contact the Moderator > > Team at hpforgrownups-owner at y... > > > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at y...) > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > ===== > "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup." > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 03:24:09 2001 From: promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com (promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:24:09 -0000 Subject: Do you get... In-Reply-To: <9g97nk+qgud@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g9aop+aqcq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20779 Well, I think I will have to go to Ottawa by mid-november :) I am still hopefull that some of my English speaking friends (or my dad) will get into HP by then. My boyfriend doesn't understand English but he will be working on november 16th so the worst that can happen to me is going to the movies alone ;) (not that I am not used to that already... He works the evening shift) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" wrote: > Hello All!!!!! > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend wrote: > > I not only get the suspicious look, I get the rolling > > eyes and everything else from my husband - especially > > when he comes home from work and finds me reading > > fanfiction! And he's the one who bought me the books > > for our anniversary last year, even though he knew I'd > > already read them all. > > > > BTW, Patricia, where in Canada are you? (I'm in > > Ottawa). > > > > Sheryll, who will also be at the movies on Nov. 16 > > > > Yeah, have to agree with this...Mitch usually says "But you've already > READ them!" or the ever popular, "you don't need more than ONE copy!" > and that kind of thing. He even asked, "What's so great about > HP?".....(gasp)....I slapped him for this one, let me tell you!!! > > I was furious!!! but it's all good, cus HP is wonderful!!! > > I'm in a wierd mood, but that's all good too! Hugs to all (and I'm in > Ottawa too, and Sheryll, are we going to the movies together???) > > Jamieson From promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 03:36:43 2001 From: promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com (promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:36:43 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Gay Culture (was: Lilly a lesbian?) In-Reply-To: <9g9a5o+j698@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9g9bgb+beq6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20780 Wow!!! You guys are really into controversial subjects... When I was 16-17 years old I didn't want to consider my sexuality other then heterosexual (bottom line was I wanted to be like everybody else) I have had time to think over that in the last 10 years (I am 27 now) and I know now that I am 100% heterosexual but I don't think JKR wants to bring topics that are soooooooooooooooooooo controversial. There are already some people who think that HP should be banned because it deals with witchcraft!!! I don't think she'll want to add more to their arguments by dealing with homosexuality (I just want to state at this point that I don't have anything against gay people - my best guy friend is gay). I personnaly think that when you are a teenager you are already confused about sexuality let alone homosexuality. I tend to think that JKR will stick to topics a little less controversial and deal with opposite sex relationships (if any). I don't know if I make any sense at this hour (and in a foreign language) but that is my opinion Patricia --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" wrote: > > Hello All, > > well, I've often wondered if JKR would put something "gay related" > into her books. I mean, she seems have someone of everyone that we can > recognize...a panorama of people. But all the children at Hogwarts are > really too young yet to know about anything like sexual preferences > and the like. > > I also think it's a pretty pointless conversation, really. I mean, the > books are still amazing,a nd JKR probably has her own reasons for not > covering the gay culture, most likely because is would confuse things, > and would really not be part of the story... > > ....that's what fanfic is for!!! > > Hugs > Jamieson From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 04:03:05 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do you get... In-Reply-To: <20010614022528.15492.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010614040305.15542.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20781 --- Sheryll Townsend wrote: > I not only get the suspicious look, I get the > rolling > eyes and everything else from my husband - > especially > when he comes home from work and finds me reading > fanfiction! And he's the one who bought me the books > for our anniversary last year, even though he knew > I'd > already read them all. > > BTW, Patricia, where in Canada are you? (I'm in > Ottawa). > > Sheryll, who will also be at the movies on Nov. 16 > > --- promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com wrote: > > that suspicious look from your significant other > any > > time you refer > > to the Harry Potter books??? My boyfriend is > > getting crazy at me > > cause everything I talk about (or so he says) > refers > > to Harry Potter. > > > > He bought the first book for me as a christmas > gift > > and now that I am > > so much into it he thinks he has created a > monster. > > I must say that > > prior to reading the books (3 times each so far) I > > was a really > > rational 27 year old accountant ;) > > > > To say that I was never a groupie to anything > before > > is an > > understatement and now I just can't wait for book > 5 > > to come out and > > that November 16th seems so far away (don't look > for > > me on November > > 16th cause I will be at the movie theater). > > > > JK Rowling what have you done to me :) Not that I > > don't enjoy it, > > right. > > > > Anyways, I am happy to see that I am not the only > > rational adult to > > LOVE Harry Potter. > > > > Bye > > > > Patricia > > Mine's actually pretty good about it. Which suprises me. He's even letting me get the books in the British version(I got my books from the US Army Post Exchange store in Germany when we were stationed there) even though several people said that they aren't that different. Danette Who is thankful her husband is willing to put up with her addiction. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 05:05:06 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:05:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly a Lesbian? References: <9g97qv+hua2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <014b01c0f48f$94e04400$c511eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20782 Hello, From: "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" > Um.....is anyone else wondering where this is coming from? I know that > I was lost there for a moment...How exactly does HP relate to the gay > culture, and what have I missed? I think there's a webpage somewhere listing all the possibly gay references in HP books. But, the most obvious one for Americans (I think it's us Americans...), Harry darling lived in a closet? Also, it relates to gay people in the way it relates to every minority group that had been discriminated against. Because the books do deal with such issues, therefore Hermy's conclusion. Other than that, anyone else want to chime in? little Alex From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 05:47:51 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 05:47:51 -0000 Subject: Lilly a Lesbian? In-Reply-To: <014b01c0f48f$94e04400$c511eda9@littlealex> Message-ID: <9g9j67+uumb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20783 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Hello, > > From: "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" > > Um.....is anyone else wondering where this is coming from? I know that > > I was lost there for a moment...How exactly does HP relate to the gay > > culture, and what have I missed? > > I think there's a webpage somewhere listing all the possibly gay references > in HP books. But, the most obvious one for Americans (I think it's us > Americans...), Harry darling lived in a closet? > > Also, it relates to gay people in the way it relates to every minority group > that had been discriminated against. Because the books do deal with such > issues, therefore Hermy's conclusion. > > Other than that, anyone else want to chime in? > > little Alex Harry living in a closet...INTERESTING POINT, NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT ONE...If I were to suspect anyone of being gay in the Canon, it would be Gilderoy Lockhart, but perhaps that is just superficial stereotyping (his flamboyant personality amongst other things), and I don't think JKR is making an issue of homosexuality in these works, whether she has pro or con sentiments about gay lifestyles. I just don't think it is a big issue with her at this time. N ;) From mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 05:48:08 2001 From: mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com (Michi) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do you get... In-Reply-To: <9g94j6+mklb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010614054808.11437.qmail@web3203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20784 --- promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com wrote: > that suspicious look from your significant other any > time you refer > to the Harry Potter books??? My boyfriend is > getting crazy at me > cause everything I talk about (or so he says) refers > to Harry Potter. Luckily all my friends are rabid fangirls about various things so I don't get too many Looks (tm)... but I do get that withering, "You've gotten yourself addicted to something ELSE?!" look. In my group of friends, addiction is well recieved and indeed welcomed. I resisted the Harry Potter peer pressure for awhile and... well, lookit me now :P One of my best guy friends offered to go to the bookstore (Borders) with me one night where I promptly toddled myself over to the children's section. He found me a bit later while I was oogling the books I didn't have yet. There was a display of HP plushies there and he offered to buy me Hedwig. He thought Hedwig was cute. But he put his foot down when I asked if I could get the sticker book ^^;; (Hey! I wanted the Quidditch sticker for my car. ^^;;) Michi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 06:06:51 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:06:51 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Gay Culture (was: Lilly a lesbian?) References: <9g9bgb+beq6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <018301c0f498$34e67a20$c511eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20785 Hello, > Wow!!! You guys are really into controversial subjects... When I Hm, it'd long ceased to be controversial for me. I know people might still view it that way, but when you truly start living the life, the novelty wears off rather quickly. > teenager you are already confused about sexuality let alone > homosexuality. I tend to think that JKR will stick to topics a > little less controversial and deal with opposite sex relationships I mean, you're working on straight as default, which is why it'd be a controversial issue. I'm working on bisexual as default, which means for me, the possibility of Harry falling for, er, Ron is as plausible as him falling for Hermione (or Ginny). Or that Remus and Sirius are probably lovers and they'll come out to Harry once he's in his fifth year . I don't actually think Harry is gay or bi, but writing slash about it is pretty fun. And Lockhart is too narcissistic to lust after anyone else. little Alex From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 14 06:36:07 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 06:36:07 -0000 Subject: Weight, race, Peeking, Ships, and others... Message-ID: <9g9m0n+uaob@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20786 I didn't read my digests for 4 days, so when i finally got to, imagine my shock that I had to read about 200 or so messages! Instead of responding to each different one, I took some notes and will reply to everything I want to in one email. Is that ok? :) Weight: When I first read the books, and even when I reread for the umteenth time, I don't think of Dudley as harry's FAT bully cousin, but his bully cousin. It never occured to me that JKR was being mean to fat people. I still don't think she is. It has been said that it was used to show Dudley with an overabunance of everything and Harry with an underabundance. That's my theory. I didn't see it as JKR slighting anyone. Race: It never occured to me that any race was particularly included or excluded. I never really thought about who was what nationality. I guess it is because I was raised in New Zealand and had friends of all different races/colors and then moved to the States and lived in South San Diego (California) and had friends of even more different races/colors. It never occurred to me to think any of them were any different because of their nationality. Now as an adult in my mid- 20's, ok I'm 24, I know that to some race/color/nationality/etc does matter to some people. I'm just not one of them. Viktor Krum: IMHO, Viktor is like a child prodigy that just wants to be a normal kid. In the States, children who show a natural talent for something (in most cases) are pushed hard to excel at that certain thing. Sometimes it becomes more of a burden. Viktor is a smart guy and a quidditch ace, perhaps he likes it at Hogwarts (and with Hermione) because there he isn't being pushed to his limit by everyone. He is allowed to be himself (although he is his schools champions) and that is such a beautiful change for him. Crushes: I'm still totally in love with the guy I had a crush on in high school. He's married (not to me) and I haven't seen him in 5 years. But, man, he was soooo cute and sweet. I think Harry can carry his flame for Cho and Ginny can carry her flame for Harry as long as they want to. :) Peeking: I am a firm believer in reading the last page first. However, I have given up that habit for the HP series. It was tough to not peek ahead in GoF when I first found out the TriWizard Cup was a portkey, but I was so enthralled that I couldn't turn more than one page at a time! Ships: I guess I just don't understand the joy of putting different characters together. But I think it would be funny if Malfoy/Crabbe/Goyle got caught in a romantic triangle with each other Which brings me to the next topic ... Homosexuality: What's the big deal? The end. Harry and Neville: Now there's a ship ... just kidding ANyway, I think we'll find that in the next books, Harry will have an entirely different attitude toward Neville, now that Harry knows about Neville's parents. I think he'll be more tolerant and forgiving of his clumsiness / dumb mistakes / etc. Or at least I hope so. Finally ... Other people: I read the first 2 books in October, went and got the 3rd and 4th, and read them twice each before Christmas. Now, I am waiting impatiently for OoP (when does it come out? I heard Nov. 12th, but that it was pushed back). I have gone to loads of HP websites (love the Lexicon) and read the first 4 books about 15 times each. Sick, I know. I'm only 60% obsessed though (sad). I have spent about $200 on merchandise (and only 60% obsessed) and my roomie thought I was completely nuts. Until the first weekend of this month. Then he finally read SS. Now he understands. And is now reading CoS. And can't wait to finish it so he can read PoA. He wants to start a quidditch team in our neighborhood, but I don't know if the parents will alow their kids to ride their brooms that high. I'm going to start reading them to a friend of mine in about a month (he's 42). The point? I got a solid convert! From ok, you need help to hey, these books ROCK! He doesn't think I'm quite as nuts as he used to! My most humble apologies for the incredible length of this, but I wanted to cover everything I wanted to say. Ok, so most of it has been said before, but if you think about it, everythings been done before anyway! :) thank you for listening to me ramble (did I mention it is 230am?) and please don't send me too much hate mail, although if you want to say hi, feel free. Michelle :) p.s. a little background ... I'm 24, but you knew that, I live in Florida (hi people from Florida), I'm a firefighter, and I am going to be one of the crazy people camping out in front of Barnes and Noble when OoP comes out and will also be camping in front of my local movie theatre to make sure I get tickets to the movie!! m :) ***dang this is long*** From browneyes1420 at aol.com Wed Jun 13 00:41:34 2001 From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:41:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20787 In a message dated 6/12/01 6:20:07 PM Central Daylight Time, andromache815 at hotmail.com writes: > Suzanna: but he has this God-like view of things: He lets them happen and > observes without interfering, at least he does so within Hogwarts. He > certainly reacts in a very different way when it comes to real evil, > which means fighting Voldemort. But inside the school which is a > closed system, he acts like God, watching benevolently, certainly not > liking everything that happens, but not interfering, seeing > everything from a much more elevated point of view. > > Yes. I see your point. Even his name, Albus, is indicative of a pure mind. > However, his judgment is not perfect (Quirrel and Lockhart), and I do think > Harry and Company get away with too much. It annoys me. Maybe that's why > Snape is my favorite character. I can really identify with him. As for the > way he treats his students, I'm sure Dumbledore is aware of it, but since > the students don't seem to be too injured by it, he doesn't step in. But my > concern is why Dumbledore waits until someone is actually injured or killed > before taking action? Seems a bit wreckless. And he does seem to ignore poor > Severus' concerns about the DADA appointees. I do feel, however, that they > share a deep friendship, and that they would sacrifice their lives for each > other. I'm sure Snape would. > > Vicky > > Hi I am going to delurk becuase I want to comment that Dumbledore has an uncanny habit of knowing when to let Harry and co. break his rules. Could Dumbledore be a true seer, or perhaps realize Prof. Trelwany is one (once in a while when she is in a state of 1/2 conciousness. Also,can you use a time tuner to go forward? IMO I think Dumbledore will die for Harry in the 6th book, and Harry will have to face his last year without Dumbledore. Joe [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 14 07:25:29 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:25:29 -0000 Subject: Lilly a Lesbian? In-Reply-To: <014b01c0f48f$94e04400$c511eda9@littlealex> Message-ID: <9g9ot9+d482@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20788 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Hello, > > From: "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" > > Um.....is anyone else wondering where this is coming from? I know that > > I was lost there for a moment...How exactly does HP relate to the gay > > culture, and what have I missed? > > I think there's a webpage somewhere listing all the possibly gay references > in HP books. But, the most obvious one for Americans (I think it's us > Americans...), Harry darling lived in a closet? > > Also, it relates to gay people in the way it relates to every minority group > that had been discriminated against. Because the books do deal with such > issues, therefore Hermy's conclusion. > > Other than that, anyone else want to chime in? > > little Alex That's funny, because this doesn't really cross over. In the UK, we say cupboard in this instance, or wardrobe, yet when we talk about someone coming out, we refer to them coming out of the closet. I wonder why? Catherine From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 14 07:39:09 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:39:09 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Many Death Eaters? In-Reply-To: <20010613194723.18788.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c0f4a5$1958b900$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 20789 + >That's possible after all he(Tom Riddle) was raised in a Muggle orphanage so he would have been exposed to >that culture first and we have seen that your average bad guy doesn't usually have any problems adopting any method they like for themselves regardless of where it >comes from. Not only that, but he was raised in a Muggle orphanage which is probably in London (only evidence is the place where he bought his diary, admittedly, but it's not a bit of London you'd be likely just to go as a tourist) during the years when Oswald Mosley and his blackshirts were pretty active in anti-semitic and pro-fascist activities. Nothing more likely than that he spent his holidays on the fringes of that sort of thing, learnign about techniques of intimidation from the Muggle perspective. Susan From andromache815 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 07:38:13 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:38:13 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: H killing V, Sirius thoughts (was Has anyone thought of this?) References: <102.47d15ae.28582fec@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20790 Devika: I don't think that Harry will be the one to destroy Voldemort, no matter how much he hates him. I think Harry is better than that. But what if he's the only one who can? Then what choice does he have? I doubt he'd feel right about killing him. However, if he lets him go, Voldie will just go on terrorizing the world. Harry wouldn't feel good about that, either. Besides, I'm all set for a show-down between the two. Then again, they actually can't duel. Their wands won't allow it. So how will Voldie be destroyed, if not by dueling? These questions have no definite answers till the end of the series, but I do hope we get to know how the surviving characters are doing, as an epilogue to book 7. Devika: As for what I think about Sirius dying...well, I'd rather not think about it. No! Not my Sirius! Quite apart from what his death would do to Harry (which would be terrible in itself), it would just be incredibly unfair to Sirius. Yes, I know, life isn't fair, but still, hasn't the poor man been through enough? Snape and Lupin have suffered a lot, as well. I don't really care for Sirius, for no other reason than that Snape hates him. I like Lupin, though, and Snape dislikes him, too. Hmmm...But back to Sirius. He has matured a lot, though he still has a nasty temper and seems a bit wand-happy. His temper is kind of like Ron's. I don't know. He's smart and mature now, but I can't get my impression of him as a boy out of my head. Popular, outgoing, and well-liked, probably. That's probably why I don't like him. I was never popular in high school, so automatically dislike fan favorites. Vicky P.S. Before you attack Snape, I'm aware of his childish attitude and vindictive nature. But I kind of know what he feels like. I know it doesn't excuse him, but it's somewhat understandable to me. People ignore me and sometimes, I feel unappreciated... From andromache815 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 09:23:45 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:23:45 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Good/evil, Catherine's poll, Bess's Question etc. References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20791 Jami: I really can't see her killing off Harry ... the way she's set up the series as good vs. evil, with Harry symbolizing good, killing him off would then be saying that evil does triumph over good, It does...However, I doubt he'd be killed, as this is a kids' series. Too bad, though. Then again, he's had so many brushes with death, perhaps one will be one too many. It'd make things interesting if he did die. It's cliche for the hero to survive/win, though one could say that the side of good won with Harry's death, because his death was for the cause. But that's an adult view that kids probably wouldn't grasp. I wonder, though, now that Voldie's got some of Harry's blood, whether their lives are bound together, so that if one dies, so dies the other...As someone said a while back, good cannot exist without evil...Yes, an off-the-wall thought, I know, but then Harry's not one of my fav characters...And it seems just like Voldie to take out his opponent with him. Catherine: Imagine book 7 has just come out... how many people will not be able to resist looking at the final chapters to see who is alive at the end!?? It'll be hard to resist the temptation, but I think I can do it. I couldn't handle it if I found out too soon that they were characters I like. Amber: I started reading HP after GoF was published. Me, too. I was busy with school, and really wanted to get into the books, so I read them right after the semester of college let out this year. I'm very new to the series. I did glimpse SS and CoS, but because I was too busy to get into it properly, I waited till now. Catherine again: Sure, he wanted the glory of winning the Triwizard Tournament, but I think that this was more to do with proving himself, in the same way he does on the Quidditch field, rather than being famous for the sake of something he can't remember. Why would he need to prove himself? He's defeated Voldie four times. And everyone knows about his Quidditch skills. Bess: 2.) How do Fred and George design/develop their pranks if they're not allowed to use magic during the vacations? Millz mentioned chemicals that explode when lit. Also, I think they're old enough to use magic. Remember the famous scene at the end of GoF when everyone curses Malfoy and Co. Perhaps the ban on use of magic out of school is lifted by their fourth year. Amy Z: One thing I'm sure of: JKR is going to kill people we really, really love. She is determined to make us feel the real impact of evil, and killing Cedric Diggory, as much as it might have upset her personally, doesn't do the trick. We're going to shed real tears before this saga comes to a close. Yes. I definitely agree. Besides, the series would be no good without some good people dying. It's unrealistic otherwise. And to Rebecca, I totally agree with your posts on Harry's nonexistent love life and Snape's love for Dumbledore. Vicky From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 10:42:17 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP:(?)Re: No-ship Harry? In-Reply-To: <9g97ee+lmrg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010614104217.84018.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20792 I don't think any of the ships will come in, if you know what I mean. Hogwarts is an artificial environment where boys and girls can develop hormonal impulses and crushes without contact with the outside (wizarding) world. Once JKR gets the Trio out of Hogwarts they can meet other people and broaden their horizons. It would be a very claustrophobic thing if they were paired off with people they've known since they were all 11 years old. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 10:48:15 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do you get... In-Reply-To: <9g97nk+qgud@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010614104815.17733.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20793 Hey Jamieson,I have good news about Roy! He heard us read the Ameerican Books and know we are onto the British ones, he asks us what are the differences and he even keeps asking what's going on! He may not read them for himself, but we keep him wel informed and who's who and who is doing what in the books. He is a good muggle after all! I wish we could be with you all on November 16th! But I am going to make sure we get the tickets well in advance for opening day!!! Marking off the days and were in Canada is Patricia, so we can have another friend up North! We will be with you all in spirit on November 16th!! Hugs to you Jamieson and schnoogles to everybody else, Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts --- Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve wrote: > Hello All!!!!! > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend > wrote: > > I not only get the suspicious look, I get the > rolling > > eyes and everything else from my husband - > especially > > when he comes home from work and finds me reading > > fanfiction! And he's the one who bought me the > books > > for our anniversary last year, even though he knew > I'd > > already read them all. > > > > BTW, Patricia, where in Canada are you? (I'm in > > Ottawa). > > > > Sheryll, who will also be at the movies on Nov. 16 > > > > Yeah, have to agree with this...Mitch usually says > "But you've already > READ them!" or the ever popular, "you don't need > more than ONE copy!" > and that kind of thing. He even asked, "What's so > great about > HP?".....(gasp)....I slapped him for this one, let > me tell you!!! > > I was furious!!! but it's all good, cus HP is > wonderful!!! > > I'm in a wierd mood, but that's all good too! Hugs > to all (and I'm in > Ottawa too, and Sheryll, are we going to the movies > together???) > > Jamieson > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Thu Jun 14 10:52:19 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 14 Jun 2001 10:52:19 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups Message-ID: <992515939.1854.56219.q3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20794 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups group. File : /Club Humour/Harrys spellcheck.jpg Uploaded by : mediaphen at hotmail.com Description : What if Bill Gates and Mr Ollivander had bussiness together? You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Club%20Humour/Harrys%20spellcheck.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, mediaphen at hotmail.com From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 11:53:21 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:53:21 -0400 Subject: No-ship Harry - GLBT - Reading Ahead - Gorgeous Granger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20795 Rebecca asked: >With all of that weighing on his mind, how much time is he going >to spend thinking about dating and romance? >And even if Harry did have the time and energy to include a girlfriend in >his life, do you think he would really want to put her through all the >struggles and dangers that he is about to experience? >I can see another teenaged boy throwing caution to the >wind and starting up a romance anyway (*cough*Ron*cough*) but not Harry. >He >thinks too much, and he worries too much, to do that. All of this is perfectly reasonable. However, the heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing. I wouldn't be surprised if this kind of conflict arose once Harry =was= in love with someone--i.e., nightmares that Voldemort will use his love as a hostage will become a fresh source of worry--but that it would actually keep him from falling for someone? Or even from acting on his feelings, at least initially? Harry worries, but when it comes to rushing in, he's just a step behind Ron. Love has a particular talent for bringing out the impulsivity in people--you know, making them sleep with their potions professor, things like that . I'm actually a Harry no-shipper too, just because I can't really see him with anyone we've met so far. (My favorite Harry/anyone pairing in fanfic is H/D, but do I really imagine that Jo is going to go there . . . ?!) But his feelings could swing overnight. Up through PA 12 we've never heard of Cho; in PA 13 we hear her name for the first time , and by the end of the chapter Harry has a crush on her; by GF we know it has dug in. He could be deeply in love with someone by OoP chapter 2. >David, jumping into the water Terrific post, David--one of those that leaves me with nothing to say but "uh-huh!!" As for being in the water, have no fear. Shippers of all descriptions will be chugging over frantically to be the first to lower you a buoy. Hermy Sue wrote: >Hello, newbie here does anyone feel that jkrowling should have more >lesbianism and gay stuff ::raises hand:: Not H/D, though--like Jo, I think that's just a wee bit improbable in canon. What I would like would be to see gay characters, just as a matter of course, not necessarily with any plot lines or "explorations of gay culture" attached (yeesh, she has enough to do)--just a side comment about Dean and Ernie going to the next ball together (Seamus/Dean shippers, stop throwing things at me. S and D are just friends!). One source of anguish for gay teens in real life is invisibility at things like dances--wouldn't it be great to see a same-sex couple dancing and only the Slytherins having any problem with it? If we didn't already see it with Mad-Eye Moody and Sex-Unknown Sinistra. Anyway, I doubt JKR is going to pull the Invisibility Cloak off gay Hogwarts students and staff, as much as I might wish otherwise. Re: reading the last pages first, I am so relieved to hear I'm not the only person who does this! I almost always regret it, however, so I'm going to resist with this most awaited of books. In the case of OoP, I know I'm going to get there within a matter of hours anyway, so what's the rush? I'm not going to sleep from the moment I pick it up to the moment I finish it. Andrea wrote: >She thinks she's perfectly fine without all that mess of >hair gel and whatever else she had to do in those >hours she prepared for the Ball, and that's something >to admire. I do admire it, and it's the saving of this scene, IMO. Also, I agree with whoever wrote that the brains-OR-beauty dichotomy is too common (in fiction and in life) and that it's nice to see JKR burst it. The problem is that the Plain Girl Who's Just Lovely if She Puts on a Little Makeup and Does Something with Her Hair is a cliche too (all I have to do is think of Ally Sheedy in "The Breakfast Club" and I break out in hives). I have a bunch more to say about this, but it's drifting OT, so bop on over to OT-chatter if you'd like to read it. Amy Z --------------------------------------------- His immediate reaction was that it would be worth becoming a prefect just to be able to use this bathroom. -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From bohners at pobox.com Thu Jun 14 12:51:04 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:51:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] No-ship Harry - Reading Ahead - Gorgeous Granger References: Message-ID: <042801c0f4d0$af89ea40$638f23cf@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20796 > >I can see another teenaged boy throwing caution to the > >wind and starting up a romance anyway (*cough*Ron*cough*) but not Harry. > >He thinks too much, and he worries too much, to do that. > All of this is perfectly reasonable. However, the heart has its reasons of > which reason knows nothing. I wouldn't be surprised if this kind of > conflict arose once Harry =was= in love with someone... but that it would > actually keep him from falling for someone? Or > even from acting on his feelings, at least initially? Oh, I don't think it would keep him from falling in love. But I think he would have to fight his feelings like crazy (and probably be unsuccessful in some regards), which would make it all the more tragic. Or maybe I'm making this TOO dark... > making them sleep with their potions professor, things like that appreciatively at Rebecca>. Hey! She has not! *looks indignantly at Amy, then relents and grins back* I thought I did make that part of it quite clear, but I can't take responsibility for the way my readers may choose to fill in the blanks between scenes... > I'm actually a Harry no-shipper too, just because I can't really see him > with anyone we've met so far. Right. I'm not at all opposed to H/G, but only if Ginny gets more character development and I can see that it would actually make sense. I'm not in favor of Harry being handed off to Ginny just because she's always had a crush on him. I mean, *most* teenaged crushes end up being completely fruitless -- or at least all of mine did. > Terrific post, David--one of those that leaves me with nothing to say but > "uh-huh!!" As for being in the water, have no fear. Shippers of all > descriptions will be chugging over frantically to be the first to lower you > a buoy. Whoop! Whoop! Up periscope on the U-Boat No-Ship... > Re: reading the last pages first, I am so relieved to hear I'm not the only > person who does this! I have to admit that from my perspective, the revelation that people do this is kind of shocking. I mean, I can see doing it with a book you don't really enjoy and just want to know how it turns out so you can toss it aside and get on to something you enjoy more; but spoiling a really GOOD book for yourself? I can't do it, myself. It's not just that it feels like cheating, it's that I know I won't enjoy the book half as much if I do it. Of course, I read so fast that it's no trial to wait until I've gotten to the end legitimately: I read GoF in about three and a half hours. > the Plain Girl Who's Just Lovely if She Puts on a Little Makeup and Does > Something with Her Hair is a cliche too (all I have to do is think of Ally > Sheedy in "The Breakfast Club" and I break out in hives). I don't know how "plain" Hermione really was. I think that Ron and Harry have had a mental block where she's concerned since Day One: they met her before they had any interest in girls romantically, and she became their friend before they had the chance to start thinking of her as A Girl, one of those mysterious alluring creatures capable of causing percolation of the hormones. They've always thought of her as an honorary guy, so of course they wouldn't notice her changing from a skinny little girl to a young woman. What I think the Yule Ball *did* do for Hermione was make her look different, so that Harry & Ron didn't recognize her right away. Her hair was sleek so it didn't immediately yell "Hermione" at them, and she was wearing much more flattering and elegant robes that no doubt made her look older and more sophisticated. So that stripped away their expectations of What Hermione Looks Like and forced them to take a second look -- hey, she's pretty, why didn't we notice that before? I don't recall JKR mentioning cosmetics in her description of Hermione: just the hair and the robes. I think Harry and Ron would have noticed (and probably Ron would have said something acid) if Hermione had been wearing any appreciable amount of makeup. So my take on all this is that Hermione didn't really undergo a Cinderella-like transformation from a plain girl into a pretty one; I think she simply made herself look different for the Ball, and defeated Ron and Harry's expectations of her in such a way that they realized hey, this girl IS a girl and she's not half bad to look at, either. And I too, have more to say on this subject but will say it over on OT-Chatter. :) -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 13:47:06 2001 From: promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com (promeneuse2000 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:47:06 -0000 Subject: Do you get... In-Reply-To: <20010614104815.17733.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gaf8q+3l3i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20797 Hello Wanda, I am in Montreal and I don't have anybody to share my enthousiasm for HP so I have decided to come here and meet adults just like me who still have an inner kid :) Have a great day Patricia --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Wanda Mallett wrote: > Hey Jamieson,I have good news about Roy! He heard us > read the Ameerican Books and know we are onto the > British ones, he asks us what are the differences and > he even keeps asking what's going on! He may not read > them for himself, but we keep him wel informed and > who's who and who is doing what in the books. He is a > good muggle after all! > > I wish we could be with you all on November 16th! But > I am going to make sure we get the tickets well in > advance for opening day!!! > > Marking off the days and were in Canada is Patricia, > so we can have another friend up North! > > We will be with you all in spirit on November 16th!! > > Hugs to you Jamieson and schnoogles to everybody else, > > Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts > > > > > > > > > > > --- Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve > wrote: > > Hello All!!!!! > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend > > wrote: > > > I not only get the suspicious look, I get the > > rolling > > > eyes and everything else from my husband - > > especially > > > when he comes home from work and finds me reading > > > fanfiction! And he's the one who bought me the > > books > > > for our anniversary last year, even though he knew > > I'd > > > already read them all. > > > > > > BTW, Patricia, where in Canada are you? (I'm in > > > Ottawa). > > > > > > Sheryll, who will also be at the movies on Nov. 16 > > > > > > > Yeah, have to agree with this...Mitch usually says > > "But you've already > > READ them!" or the ever popular, "you don't need > > more than ONE copy!" > > and that kind of thing. He even asked, "What's so > > great about > > HP?".....(gasp)....I slapped him for this one, let > > me tell you!!! > > > > I was furious!!! but it's all good, cus HP is > > wonderful!!! > > > > I'm in a wierd mood, but that's all good too! Hugs > > to all (and I'm in > > Ottawa too, and Sheryll, are we going to the movies > > together???) > > > > Jamieson > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 13:48:34 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:48:34 -0000 Subject: No-ship Harry - Gorgeous Granger In-Reply-To: <042801c0f4d0$af89ea40$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9gafbi+u57b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20798 Rebecca wrote: > Oh, I don't think it would keep him from falling in love. But I think he > would have to fight his feelings like crazy (and probably be unsuccessful in > some regards), which would make it all the more tragic. Yep, I'm with you totally. >Or maybe I'm making > this TOO dark... Nah. Pile on the angst! However, speaking of tragedy, I do draw the line at killing Sirius. Is there something personal going on here, I wonder? I am so drawn to Harry's parent issues that you'd think I'd lost =my= parents in infancy. My dad did come very close to dying when I was only in my 20's, so maybe the thought of Sirius dying pushes some buttons. I know Harry's going to suffer in the next three books, and in my perverse way I'm looking forward to it, but Sirius . . . that would be so cruel. Rebecca wrote > I don't recall JKR mentioning cosmetics in her description of Hermione: > just the hair and the robes. I think Harry and Ron would have noticed (and > probably Ron would have said something acid) if Hermione had been wearing > any appreciable amount of makeup. > > So my take on all this is that Hermione didn't really undergo a > Cinderella-like transformation from a plain girl into a pretty one; I think > she simply made herself look different for the Ball, and defeated Ron and > Harry's expectations of her in such a way that they realized hey, this girl > IS a girl and she's not half bad to look at, either. I think that's true--I didn't mean the makeup comment literally. The transformation is mostly in Harry's and Ron's perceptions (and everyone else's--Pansy, Draco, everyone's a little stunned to see how pretty Hermione is). It's still the Cinderella formula--all Cinderella needed was a bath and some nice clothes, right? Amy Z ---------------------------------------------- However, it is easy to repulse the Pogrebin with simple hexes or Stupefying Charms. Kicking has also been found effective. -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them ---------------------------------------------- From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 14 14:01:20 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:01:20 -0000 Subject: Gorgeous Granger In-Reply-To: <9gafbi+u57b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gag3g+br86@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20799 Amy Z wrote: The > transformation is mostly in Harry's and Ron's perceptions (and > everyone else's--Pansy, Draco, everyone's a little stunned to see how > pretty Hermione is). It's still the Cinderella formula--all > Cinderella needed was a bath and some nice clothes, right? > > Amy Z > 'Me Too' to everything snipped. However, I think that a large part, if not most, of the reaction of people generally was that Hermione had landed Krum. Viktor, of course, gets his just reward for noticing Hermione is a girl *before* her makeover. Draco is a different matter, and we await developments with interest. He is strangely silent, not just at the time but also later when people tease Hermione about being Krum's sorely-missed one. Although the transformation thing is a literary (and Hollywood) cliche, it has happened to me in real life enough to find it believable. David, who used to feel insecure at school when people had their hair cut, in case they'd changed inside. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 14:14:33 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:14:33 -0000 Subject: Gorgeous Granger In-Reply-To: <9gag3g+br86@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gags9+qape@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20800 David wrote: > However, I think that a large part, > if not most, of the reaction of people generally was that Hermione > had landed Krum. Viktor, of course, gets his just reward for > noticing Hermione is a girl *before* her makeover. It's one of the things--THE thing--I like best about Viktor. We don't know much about him, but we do know he likes Hermione. Good call, VK! (I think his shyness is touching also. =Months= watching her in the library before he said a word!) > Draco is a different matter, and we await developments with > interest. He is strangely silent, not just at the time but also > later when people tease Hermione about being Krum's sorely-missed one. Uh-oh. Rebecca, you'd better get David onto that U-boat before the D/H ship picks him up. > Although the transformation thing is a literary (and Hollywood) > cliche, it has happened to me in real life enough to find it > believable. Like most cliches, it has an element of reality. It's just a reality that makes me uncomfortable, I suppose. Amy Z From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 14:18:27 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius Black/Gryffindor attitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010614141827.82576.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20801 Snape and Lupin have suffered a lot, as well. I don't really care for Sirius, for no other reason than that Snape hates him. I like Lupin, though, and Snape dislikes him, too. Hmmm...But back to Sirius. He has matured a lot, though he still has a nasty temper and seems a bit wand-happy. His temper is kind of like Ron's. I don't know. He's smart and mature now, but I can't get my impression of him as a boy out of my head. Popular, outgoing, and well-liked, probably. That's probably why I don't like him. I was never popular in high school, so automatically dislike fan favorites. Vicky Vicky, I was never popular in high school either. However, there is something about Sirius that welll interests me. I don't know I doubt he was any more popular than James, who wasn't anymore popular than Harry. I think that it is like Harry and Ron, most people know of them but they don't really know them. I see Sirius as having a temper..very insightful about him and Ron having similar tempers...Not all headboys are popular though, cuz I have a hunch that Percy didn't win any popularity contests (and there isn't anything wrong with that)! You know this is going completely off the subject but I have noticed that most people think that Gryffindors are good and Slytherins are bad. While I understand that logic and agree with you in most cases, we do no of atleast one person who went bad from Gryffindor..and that is Peter Pettigrew. I am assuming that he was in Gryffindor as well...although, I don't think that has ever been stated specifically. Melanie --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 14:49:19 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:49:19 -0000 Subject: what is fan fic and where can I find it? Message-ID: <9gaitf+rot5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20802 Post me a message or email me From joannec at hwy.com.au Thu Jun 14 11:16:59 2001 From: joannec at hwy.com.au (Joanne Collins) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:16:59 +1000 Subject: FF: Pretty stereotypes (some SHIP too) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010614211659.007f8da0@mail.hwy.com.au> No: HPFGUIDX 20803 Ebony wrote: >What annoys me are several fanfics that I have read in which the author has >decided to make Angelina white on purpose, saying, "I always saw her as >being white in my head... I identify with Angelina a lot, so I'm making her >white." Oh, my lord. What a horrid thing for a fanfic writer to say. I'm sorry, but if you're not prepared to at least *acknowledge* the ethnicity of a character, you shouldn't be writing them. Period. I have written a *lot* of fanfic over the years, and some of the characters I've written about have been Asian or black. I'm not saying I did any research outside of the show/movie, aside from what I know from other reading and RL, but I sure as *hell* did not say that an Asian character had porcelain skin (actually, I don't think I've said that *any* character has porcelain skin, I tend to go for creamy). It's unfair to change the canon portrayal of a character. Then you're not writing fanfic, you're writing original fic and giving the character a canon character's name. When I first started writing a fic from Angelina's PoV last >Christmas, there was a thread over at HP_FanFiction that was started when a >certain writer admitted that they'd never pictured her as being "really >black". Well...it depends on what they meant by not "really black". If they meant "I pictured her white," that's blatantly offensive. But if it's "I pictured her light-skinned like Vanessa Williams," that's not *quite* so offensive. However, my cynical side says that it's more likely the former. I can actually picture Angelina or Dean as light-skinned, that's not unlikely to me, but the other - no. >Which brings to mind my post from yesterday--what is it about >characters of color that makes certain readers and fan writers so darn >uncomfortable? Some of it can actually stem from a lack of confidence to write them. People might think that they couldn't do it. But me, I just stumble along *g*. And as John said, there is a societal element to this. >Maybe I'm weird, but I don't have to *look* like a character in order to >identify with them. *shrug* 90% of my favourite characters are male. I sure as hell don't look like any of them. Doesn't stop me identifying with some of them. Joanne. -- Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat. Now, that's a fact. I'll fuckin' kill you. Chuckie (Ben Affleck) Good Will Hunting From blpurdom at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 15:30:13 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:30:13 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Gay Culture (was: Lilly a lesbian?) In-Reply-To: <9g9a5o+j698@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gala5+kn2u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20804 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" wrote: > [snip] But all the children at Hogwarts are really too young yet to know about anything like sexual preferences and the like. > I strongly disagree. All of my gay friends (a large number) knew about themselves when they were very, very young, (younger than Hogwarts age) even the ones who were in denial until adulthood; they knew but didn't WANT to know... > > ....that's what fanfic is for!!! > > Hugs > Jamieson Now, on THAT I agree! There's already enough censorship fascists out there trying to get Harry Potter books out of school libraries because of the magic issue. If a children's book series intimated that girls sometimes loved girls and boys sometimes loved boys, they'd go into overdrive. BTW, one of the biggest HP fans I know is a lesbian United Church of Christ pastor who is an H/H shipper! --Barb From blpurdom at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 15:44:43 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:44:43 -0000 Subject: Lilly a Lesbian? In-Reply-To: <014b01c0f48f$94e04400$c511eda9@littlealex> Message-ID: <9gam5b+434d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20805 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > > Also, it relates to gay people in the way it relates to every > minority group that had been discriminated against. Because the > books do deal with such issues, therefore Hermy's conclusion. > > Other than that, anyone else want to chime in? > I think the best equivalent to gays in the canon books are Squibs. They are born into wizarding families and have a deep, shameful secret: they are different. They cannot help it. It can potentially create a huge rift between them and their families, their friends. They are simply incapable of behaving the same as "normal" witches and wizards. Filch even had that owl-post magic course that Harry found in his office, which in retrospect reminds me of (largely religiously-based) programs that exist to "change" gay people. I think it is no coincidence that it was said in GoF (by D. Malfoy?) that Squibs and Mudbloods would be targeted first, just as gays and Gypsies were first to be put in concentration camps in the thirties in Germany (one is a marginalized group in the community; the other is an "ethnic" group which is insinuating itself into wizarding society). I've also noticed that Voldemort is not unlike Hitler (who I seem to remember was part Jewish) in that his heritage (Muggle father) includes a group he is actively targeting. More than one dangerous person in history acted out of self-hatred. I feel confident that Rowling will not directly address issues concerning sexual minorities; instead, I think she is using her soapbox to create an allegory that may be read one way by kids, and another by adults who are more attuned to the things she is saying about human beings' prejudices and fearful reactions. From pennylin at swbell.net Thu Jun 14 16:01:51 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:01:51 -0500 Subject: Cho -- Geography/Wales -- Various SHIPPing questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20806 Hi everyone -- I could have used a ship, any ship (or an inner tube) last Friday night! For those who didn't hear on OT-Chatter, my home flooded in Storm Allison that hit Houston last weekend. I'm living at my in-laws home for at least another 2-3 weeks it seems as the damage to our home was worse than we first thought (not to mention that everyone in the greater Houston area needs a contractor .. flooring ... building materials ... dehumidifiers, all of which are in short supply). I've been saving up my comments for a few days, and since baby is peacefully asleep at the moment ... Amy Z said: <<>> :::raises hand::: Yes, I think she might have, but then, that's because I have a feeling that Cedric and Cho had been taken with another (if not dating) prior to the Yule Ball. I think Harry just hadn't noticed. :--) GEOGRAPHY: Susan Hall wrote a funny post about how long it would take baby Harry to fall asleep and concluded by saying that it appears Godric's Hollow might be in south or southwestern Wales. Despite Lexicon Steve's arguments to the contrary, I remain convinced that Godric's Hollow is in Wales. I know I know. There are too many unknown variables to say for sure. BUT, I still think it's in Wales. :--) SHIPPING STUFF: Melanie wrote an interesting spin on FITD: that Ron might mistakenly perceive there to be a romantic relationship between Harry and Hermione and act out of jealousy. I've argued that before. In fact, that's one of the most likely scenarios IMHO. Of course, my take on it is that Hermione *does* have feelings for Harry, so Ron won't be too off-base. Jenny wrote: <<>> Gasp!! When Harry met Sally is my favorite romantic comedy, and I think that the scene where they slept together was the *best* scene in the whole movie (well .. the deli scene for pure humor but ...). I really am convinced that one's shipping preferences are largely driven by how one views relationships. I have never in my entire life dated or had a crush on anyone who *wasn't* a friend first & foremost (well other than an occasional casual date that never led anywhere). I also strongly believe that friendship is the foundation for a solid marriage. My husband is my best friend. So ... that does no doubt influence my perceptions of shipping. Ron & Hermione are friends too, but their bickering (the tensions as you say) is really off-putting to me. I can't fathom a relationship like that. <<>> I take it from your last comment that you identify with Hermione? So many of us do. Maybe we're projecting which boy we'd choose? :--) Again, I fail to see why "tensions" in a relationship are necessary; in fact, I don't see them as a good thing at all. Maybe it's just me. :::shrugs::: Rebecca wrote: <<< So although I think Harry/Ginny would be nice, and I could even live with Harry/Hermione (although I think that's far too predictable and therefore not very interesting), I really doubt we're going to see anything serious develop for Harry along romantic lines.>>> I strongly agree with your points in the Harry No-Ship post. I think he may well avoid romantic entanglements. I'll go a step further and say that I can see him pushing his friends away too. But, I agree with Pippin that it wouldn't make sense for JKR to have let us know that Harry has healthy adolescent romantic feelings and then never expand on that. So, I think we will know that he's making a sacrifice, that he's consciously pushing away girls he might like to date. But, I think he will sacrifice this aspect of his adolescence. H/H is predictable? I think R/H and H/G is far more boring. H/H "raises the stakes" as Ebony says. Rebecca again: <<>> Mine too. Maybe that's partially why I'm against H/G. I don't think she should just get Harry because of her crush. She needs to be a much more fleshed-out character to deserve the hero IMO. Right now, I just don't see that we know enough about Ginny (and we haven't seen enough H/G interaction to know whether Harry *or* Ginny would even like each other). I'm still not convinced that she isn't still hero-worshipping. Okay, I'm caught up more or less, and baby is stirring. :--) Penny _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lilith_snape at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 16:23:14 2001 From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:23:14 -0000 Subject: Does Snape like Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <034f01c0f473$59d4ab60$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9gaodi+n5rv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20807 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote: > > I was just going to post a counter-question like that...Actually, I > > think Snape owes Dumbledore too much to be able to like him entirely. > > Respect him, yes. Obey him, yes. But *like* him, I don't know. > > I don't know. From everything I've seen of Snape's interactions with > Dumbledore, he's not merely warily deferential or coldly respectful, he > really seems to care very much what Dumbledore thinks, and be almost > pathetically eager for his understanding and approval. I wouldn't say that > Snape likes Dumbledore -- I'd say that he loves* him. Maybe he does. But that doesn't exclude the possibility of feeling a mixed and weird collection of emotion towards him. Including a frustration and also some hatred. No emotion is entirely pure, there's always something deeper to it, and I *do* think that Snape is extremely fond of Albus Dumbledore, but like I said- he owes him a great deal. > > There doesn't seem to be any resentment in Snape's behaviour toward > Dumbledore, and although I agree with you that Snape owes D. a huge debt, it > doesn't seem to weigh on him the way that his debt to James did. Unless you > have some examples in mind from canon that would indicate Snape's view of > Dumbledore is tinged with bitterness -- I personally can't think of any. I don't have any either. It's just a feeling. > > I've said before and I'll say it again: when Dumbledore goes (as I believe > he will, and soon -- my money's on the end of Book 5), I don't think anyone > will grieve for him more deeply than Severus Snape. But being Snape, he'll > never let us see that grief, either. He'll suffer in silence, and he'll > suffer alone. Yes, Severus will suffer when Dumbledore goes (agree with you about book 5 but feel the need to guarantee with a little money on book 6 as well) because they are close. No one knows Snape better than Albus, I'm sure, and the deep grief would be completely mutual if anyone of them dies. Still, I have my belief that Snape is a tad bothered by his debt, unless of course (this is something I've had in mind for a long time) Dumbledore could diminish this feeling in some way. Maybe Snape isn't the only one to be indebted? Maybe Albus somehow, sometime, managed to put himself in debt to Snape too. And this would in that case explain their relationship a lot better. Gee, I don't know. > > Taking out a handkerchief and blowing my nose very loudly, > -- > Rebecca J. Bohner > rebeccaj at p... > http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj > > *No, not in a slashy way. In a fatherly-mentorly way. Sheesh. Lilith who finds slash between Snape/Dumbledore slightly amusing. From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 16:49:51 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:49:51 -0000 Subject: Has anyone named a child after HP characters? Message-ID: <9gapvf+ea4l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20808 I would say that IMO that is fanatical From ender_w at msn.com Thu Jun 14 15:05:01 2001 From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:05:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly a Lesbian? References: <20010614025130.5787.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00bb01c0f4e3$65b09a00$27e7183f@satellite> No: HPFGUIDX 20809 I agree with Wanda, but I personally think that JKR is going to avoid homosexuality not because of controversy issues, but just because it probably isn't essential to the plot. We've had four books so far and we have yet to see any major indications of heterosexuality (outside of schoolkid crushes), much less homosexuality. As a writer, I have no problem with themes of homosexuality, heterosexuality or bisexuality, if they're important to the plot or to a character's development. To me, these themes are *not* like Mt Everest...they're not meant to be tackled simply because they're "there." IMHO I don't foresee such themes being necessary to JKR's Harry Potter works (though, as someone pointed out, she may bring them up if she decides to write other books), but I could be wrong. There are so many books written for children (both big and small) and adolescents, that are great works of literature without ever touching on sexuality at all. Harry Potter probably will be one of those (though, I'm no Trelawney, so of course anything's possible). Ach! I have more to say about this, but I have to think about it first...my brain takes a while to process. ender ----- Original Message ----- From: Wanda Mallett To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 10:51 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly a Lesbian? Hi Jamieson, I only just read the same email as you did from Hermy Sue and I don't know if anybody else did mention anything about those issues? Where HP is listed as a children's Book, who knows if JK Rowling would go into the gay line of plots. Maybe if she writes something geared towards the adult fans, she might through in all kinds of plot lines! Something for everybody! But I don't think she would with a children's book line. To many parents would revolt like a certain someone who will not be named! But you never know what she has going on in her HP world and if she does do some books only for the adult level group. Your thoughts Jamieson? Hugs to you too! Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts --- Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve wrote: > Hello All!!!!! > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hermionekicks at y... wrote: > > Hello, newbie here does anyone feel that jkrowling > should have more > > lesbianism and gay stuff in her books cus i think > it would be really > > cool! i mean, the gay culture and the gay > community need to have > mroe > > gay representation in stuff that so like > mainstream, so that it like > > gets more out there in the world and stuff. so it > would be > interesting > > if we used hp for like maybe a union between the > gay and the > straight > > and showed the world that we can all get a long. > would that be cool, > i > > think so! let me knowwhat you guys thing k? > > > > Hermy Sue > > > Um.....is anyone else wondering where this is coming > from? I know that > I was lost there for a moment...How exactly does HP > relate to the gay > culture, and what have I missed? > > Sigh, > > Hugs > Jamieson > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Guaranteed Lowest Hotel Rates! _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bbennett at joymail.com Thu Jun 14 17:12:18 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:12:18 -0000 Subject: Has anyone named a child after HP characters? In-Reply-To: <9gapvf+ea4l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gar9i+662m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20810 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > I would say that IMO that is fanatical Rowanbrook, you should try searching the archives; I'm sure this topic as been discussed before. Additionally, this isn't really an n topic discussion - have you had a chance to join HP4GU-Chatter? Lots of OT (off topic) things are brought up there - it's an interesting off shoot of this group. If you check the files group, you'll find information about what gets discussed here and what gets discussed there. And as for naming a child after a character - I personally think it'd have been cool if I'd been named after a beloved literary character from one of my parents' favorite books. If it seems a bit fanatical to some, so what? All my favorite people are fanatical about something. IMO, it's much more interesting to name a child after a character that means something to you than to simply choose a name from a baby book. Best, B From SHENmagic at aol.com Thu Jun 14 17:19:55 2001 From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:19:55 EDT Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:Bill=20Gates=20and=20Mr.=20Ollivander=20in=20busine?= =?UTF-8?Q?ss?= Message-ID: <122.4ede29.285a4c3b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20811 << Uploaded by : mediaphen at hotmail.com Description : What if Bill Gates and Mr Ollivander had bussiness [sic] together? You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Club%20Humour/Harrys%20spell check.jpg >> Absolutely hysterical! Thanks! Aylihael (the flyby lurker, probably for MONTHS more!) "You can tell the quality of your life by the nature of your complaints. May we remember just how blessed a life we live".--Liz Lafferty From neilward at dircon.co.uk Thu Jun 14 17:29:33 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:29:33 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Holocaust discussion (was Re: Lilly a Lesbian?) In-Reply-To: <9gam5b+434d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gas9t+dgo8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20812 Barb said: <> Very few topics are completely banned from the discussions here, but at the moment The Holocaust is one of these. Newer members may not be aware that the topic generated some quite inflammatory discussion (not to mention inaccurate statements) in the past. The moderators respectfully ask that members do not continue this thread of discussion. I'm afraid we haven't noted this particular ban on a flashing neon sign, so please forgive my stepping in on list to call a halt. Thanks Neil Flying Ford Anglia Moderator Team From lrcjestes at earthlink.net Thu Jun 14 17:37:21 2001 From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (lrcjestes at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:37:21 -0000 Subject: Losing Sirius - supporting Penny In-Reply-To: <9gafbi+u57b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gasoh+a5j1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20813 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Nah. Pile on the angst! However, speaking of tragedy, I do draw the > line at killing Sirius. Is there something personal going on here, I > wonder? I am so drawn to Harry's parent issues that you'd think I'd > lost =my= parents in infancy. My dad did come very close to dying > when I was only in my 20's, so maybe the thought of Sirius dying > pushes some buttons. I know Harry's going to suffer in the next three > books, and in my perverse way I'm looking forward to it, but Sirius . > . . that would be so cruel. I agree...and not just because Sirius is my favorite...glances around...REALLY. JKR has begun to allow Harry to rely on Sirius as a mentor and a father figure. Would she be so cruel as to tear that away again? He is just beginning to trust adults and go to them for help. I'm counting on her compassion for Harry to keep Sirius alive. Penny wrote: > Gasp!! When Harry met Sally is my favorite romantic comedy, I also strongly believe that > friendship is the foundation for a solid marriage. My husband is my best > friend. So ... that does no doubt influence my perceptions of shipping. > Ron & Hermione are friends too, but their bickering (the tensions as you > say) is really off-putting to me. I can't fathom a relationship like that. > I just have to creep out of lurkdom and support Penny on this one. I was best friends with my hubby before it ever turned into romance. We palled around together in college. He helped me through physics, I got him through a geology elective. We were buddies for quite awhile before we ever kissed. For those who haven't experienced that I can see why H/H does not have the appeal. But for those of us who *have* experienced its very powerful. You know this person really well. You really really like him or her. When the paradigm suddenly shifts and something makes you think about romance with this person, all those uncertainties are already resolved. When that first kiss does come, its not like kissing a brother. Its just so right. > << tensions between Harry and Hermione the way I see tensions between Ron > and Hermione. I'd like to see their relationship (friendship or > otherwise) be developed a bit more, though, because I am still not > sure why they appear to be attracted to each other (Ron doesn't seem > like my type at all).>>> > > I take it from your last comment that you identify with Hermione? So many > of us do. Maybe we're projecting which boy we'd choose? :--) Again, I > fail to see why "tensions" in a relationship are necessary; in fact, I don't > see them as a good thing at all. Maybe it's just me. :::shrugs::: > Hollywood and romance novels have led a lot of people to believe that a relationship is not intense without tension, fighting, anger, resistance, and spats. A relationship can be very intense even if you agree on a lot of major issues. Passion does not have to derive from anger or spats. We aren't used to seeing relationships without spats, because it wouldn't be dramatic enough to hold a viewer, but it does exist. In fact I venture to suggest that it exists far more often than Hollywood would allow us to believe. Passion without that tension is really very pleasant and not in the least boring. I was a confirmed no-shipper before reading a certain H/H fanfic, which wholeheartedly converted me, but I really think any long term relationships will not be settled in canon. I agree with Magda when she wrote: > Once JKR gets the Trio out of Hogwarts > they can meet other people and broaden their horizons. > > It would be a very claustrophobic thing if they were paired off with > people they've known since they were all 11 years old. The only trouble is that JKR has said she will not write post- Hogwarts. That's why there is fanfic. carole From chl0525 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 17:52:31 2001 From: chl0525 at hotmail.com (chl0525 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:52:31 -0000 Subject: Weight, race, Peeking, Ships, and others... In-Reply-To: <9g9m0n+uaob@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gatkv+2cpi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20814 I think that is an exellent theory about Krum. And I also agree w/ you on the whole fat thing. I am 27 (from Kansas City) and will also be camped out at B&N waiting for the next book. My son (he will be 7 in Aug) and I watched the movie trailer on the websight and he was amazed. All he could say was "that's not what I thought it would be like" (compleatly in awe). Zack will not be camping out. I think my obsession runs deeper than his (sad, huh?) Michelle From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 17:56:23 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gorgeous Granger In-Reply-To: <9gags9+qape@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010614175623.49924.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20815 I think this might have been mentioned before..but the only point to which I think that it is a bad thing for a girl to be like not even noticed until she puts a little makeup. I know somebody brought up the whole Ally Sheedy in the Breakfast Club..that bothered me..I mean if you don't like her before..a little makeup shouldn't matter. Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bohners at pobox.com Thu Jun 14 17:59:55 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:59:55 -0400 Subject: SHIP: The truth about H/H? References: <9gasoh+a5j1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <04f301c0f4fb$da5d7360$638f23cf@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20816 Carole wrote: > I just have to creep out of lurkdom and support Penny on this one. I > was best friends with my hubby before it ever turned into romance. > We palled around together in college. He helped me through physics, > I got him through a geology elective. We were buddies for quite > awhile before we ever kissed. For those who haven't experienced that > I can see why H/H does not have the appeal. But for those of us who > *have* experienced its very powerful. Well, you have just told the story of my own courtship with my husband -- as well as the story of all the romances I always liked and respected most in literature even before I met my husband. And I agree heartily with you that such relationships are the best. However, I am not at all an H/H shipper, even though PoU was the first fic I ever read (oh, no, sorry, it was the second: Pippin's hilarious "Imperius Crush" was the first) and most of the better-quality fics I've read have been H/H to at least some extent. So I don't think you can boil a person's ship preferences down to their life experience, or their fanfic reading experience, or even which boy we'd choose if we were in Hermione's place (I love Ron, but given a choice I would probably choose Harry myself). There are all kinds of reasons, just as there are all kinds of people. > Hollywood and romance novels have led a lot of people to believe that > a relationship is not intense without tension, fighting, anger, > resistance, and spats. A relationship can be very intense even if > you agree on a lot of major issues. Passion does not have to derive > from anger or spats. Again, I agree: my husband and I have literally never had an argument in 3 years of marriage, and I'm more than happy to keep it that way. I never liked the "bickering lovers" motif either; I'd much rather see people laugh together and tease each other. But again, that doesn't make me an H/Her. I don't really see that kind of relaxed openness between Harry and Hermione either. I think they're all still too young and emotionally turbulent for anyone to really say what they'll be like or which relationship (H/H or R/H) would turn out for the best in the end. Ron is easier to object to because he shoots his mouth off more than Harry does, and therefore appears to have more of an attitude problem. But it could just as easily be said that Ron is more open than Harry and therefore resolving conflicts with him wouldn't be so difficult. Remember in the Scabbers-Crookshanks tiff, Hermione was just as stubborn and insensitive as Ron was, indeed in some ways more so. And in the Harry-Ron tiff in GoF, it was Harry who kept it going when Ron wanted to resolve it. IMO, they *all* need to grow up and learn to stop bickering before they're ready for any kind of a serious relationship -- with each other or with anybody else. -- Rebecca J. Bohner (who prefers R/H to H/H simply because it seems more canonically likely, and because she's tired of people slagging Ron -- but really doesn't care if none of them end up with anybody. I'd rather see a relationship for Sirius or Remus, frankly.) From bohners at pobox.com Thu Jun 14 18:03:30 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:03:30 -0400 Subject: Gorgeous Granger References: <9gafbi+u57b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <051701c0f4fc$6f6379a0$638f23cf@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20817 > transformation is mostly in Harry's and Ron's perceptions (and > everyone else's--Pansy, Draco, everyone's a little stunned to see how > pretty Hermione is). It's still the Cinderella formula--all > Cinderella needed was a bath and some nice clothes, right? Now I can't help wondering if Snape is ever going to get similar treatment... after all, Sirius looked pretty awful in PoA when he had bad hair and was pale and haggard, but from his pre-Azkaban photos and GoF we know he's actually quite an attractive guy. Hmmm... Nah, probably not. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 18:07:12 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cho -- Geography/Wales -- Various SHIPPing questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010614180712.23740.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20818 Melanie wrote an interesting spin on FITD: that Ron might mistakenly perceive there to be a romantic relationship between Harry and Hermione and act out of jealousy. I've argued that before. In fact, that's one of the most likely scenarios IMHO. Of course, my take on it is that Hermione *does* have feelings for Harry, so Ron won't be too off-base. Jenny wrote: << Message-ID: <20010614181148.52105.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20819 I was named after Melanie in "Gone with the Wind." My mom read the book before she saw the movie..and my daddy too. They both thought that Melanie was a sweet character, loved the name, and hoped I'd be like that. I think they made the right choice I love her character *g* However, in Harry Potter I kind of like the Hermione honestly or Ginny. I"ve always love Guinevere or Virgina..those names are beautiful. Melanie --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 18:17:30 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: R?H Message-ID: <20010614181730.32036.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20820 Rebecca J. Bohner (who prefers R/H to H/H simply because it seems more canonically likely, and because she's tired of people slagging Ron -- but really doesn't care if none of them end up with anybody. I'd rather see a relationship for Sirius or Remus, frankly.) My boys and I have read together all 4 books, and they commented that Ron likes Hermoine! They liked all the little comments they made at each other. Now that we are on the British versions, it certainly looks that way with the way they banter at each other. So we really won't know until we have the rest of the series to read. Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Jun 14 18:46:34 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:46:34 -0000 Subject: Various SHIPPing questions In-Reply-To: <20010614180712.23740.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gb0qa+bs5q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20821 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > I love When Harry met Sally. Actually I like Ron a lot...I sympathize with Hermione somewhat and Ginny a bit tooo ( I always watch my crushes from afar). However, I think that Hermione is deciding between Ron and Harry..it's natural? Though, if I were her I'd pick Ron. Okay, I understand what everyone (like you, Penny) is saying about friendship turning into romance and all that - I realy do! But it's true - that is something I haven't experienced, even though my boyfriend is my best friend now. It just didn't start out that way. I guess I very much identify with Ginny (which I have said before) and want Harry to see her differently. JKR has said that Ginny's character will develop more in OoP and I hope through that, she will become "worthy" of our hero Harry (I think she's worthy already). As much as I like Hermione, I do not identify with her at all. As far as Ron and Hermione go... maybe tensions isn't the right word. I certainly don't mean that bickering and being upset with someone is the way to become romantically involved, but when I read the scenes in GoF where Ron and Hermione are struggling with each other, I feel that there is something behind their tensions, and they are still trying to fight it. Hmmm... I like reading the shipper debates because I am trying to figure it out. I am also very hot as I am sitting in a classroom with no air condtioning and it is very humid outside - and I'm in the South Bronx - very stifling indeed. That may account for my comments not making the best sense right now. --jenny from ravenclaw******************************************** From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 19:26:59 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:26:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FF: Pretty stereotypes (some SHIP too) References: <3.0.6.32.20010614211659.007f8da0@mail.hwy.com.au> Message-ID: <010d01c0f508$019a3240$810ceda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20822 Hello, > *hell* did not say that an Asian character had porcelain skin (actually, I Actually, classical Chinese writers were fond of describing their female characters as very light-skinned. "White jade" is the most common term in describing skin color. But yes, I do find it quite offensive for FF writers to change a character's ethnicity just because they can't identify with the character otherwise. little Alex From catz109 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 19:26:02 2001 From: catz109 at hotmail.com (catz109 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:26:02 -0000 Subject: Gorgeous Granger In-Reply-To: <051701c0f4fc$6f6379a0$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9gb34a+sj87@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20823 I think it's fine that Hermione looked nice and pretty for the ball. It shows that she isn't vain, considering what she normally looks like, and she just wanted to look different. Probably to impress Krum (or Ron!) Rebekah From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 19:33:46 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Has anyone named a child after HP characters? In-Reply-To: <9gar9i+662m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010614193346.52998.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20824 --- bbennett at joymail.com wrote: > And as for naming a child after a character - I > personally think it'd > have been cool if I'd been named after a beloved > literary character > from one of my parents' favorite books. If it seems > a bit fanatical > to some, so what? All my favorite people are > fanatical about > something. IMO, it's much more interesting to name a > child after > a character that means something to you than to > simply choose a name > from a baby book. > > Best, > B I didn't name my youngest after a HP character but does it count that I named her after a character in Lois MacMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkorsigan series?? Danette We named her Cordelia for Miles' mother. ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From bess_va at lycos.com Thu Jun 14 20:00:35 2001 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va at lycos.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:00:35 -0000 Subject: SHIP: The truth about H/H? In-Reply-To: <04f301c0f4fb$da5d7360$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9gb553+dqtn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20825 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote: > (who prefers R/H to H/H simply because it seems more canonically likely, and because she's tired of people slagging Ron -- but really doesn't care if none of them end up with anybody. I'd rather see a relationship for Sirius or Remus, frankly.) I'd like to see relationships for them also, but when I've tried to envision it, I slam into some brick walls (it's my own lack of imagination, I know other folks have successfully done it). Can you imagine Remus saying "Hey baby, how about we go for some Chinese tonight?" (For that matter, I can't imagine either Sirius or Remus saying "Hey baby...") Seriously, what's he gonna say..."Well, I'm in my mid-thirties, I don't have a steady job, and I can't work in my profession. No one outside my immediate family knows how I support myself. I will join the fight against the Dark Lord whenever I'm needed; I have to redeem myself, I am a coward. So don't count on me to pick you up on Saturday night, even if we do have a date, I may be battling the forces of evil. And if you want to get together anytime during the full moon, forget it. No, I'm not gonna tell you where I am or what I'm doing." Sounds like every girl's dream, doesn't it? (and I have a major league crush on him too!) And Sirius's about the same, only he doesn't even have a home and is running from the law. I think the main problem with finding `em girlfriends is that they both have too much pride to depend on anyone other than themselves. Unless either one has something to offer a woman, he ain't gonna play. (ducking under her desk) Bess From lrcjestes at earthlink.net Thu Jun 14 20:11:50 2001 From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (lrcjestes at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:11:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP:(?) Harry/Ginny In-Reply-To: <9g8kln+83no@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gb5q6+ottl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20826 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > When it comes to Harry and Ginny, I really want to see that happen. I > feel that JKR has set up Ginny to be a good person - compassionate, > patient, comforting... I see some of her traits as ones similar to > Harry's: they are both modest, don't fight for the spotlight and > generally don't antagonize others. Ginny is the underdog here, and I > want to see her get something that will make her happy, and that thing > would be Harry. Of course, Harry returning Ginny's feelings will > enable me to remember all the unrequited crushes I had and to feel > some satisfaction. > I can relate and appreciate seing an unrequited love come to fruition, BUT I disagree necesarily with your characterization of Ginny. We have seen next to nothing of Ginny under normal everyday circumstances. How do we know she's this modest, patient, compassionate, and comforting person. How do we know she doesn't antagonize poor Colin Creevey to death? We don't. That is the impression a lot of people have of her, but she is a Weaseley. Are any of them the shy retiring type? Or are they over-acheivers, dragon tamers, cursebreakers, pranksters, risk takers? Also I would LOVE to see Ginny happy, but why oh why is the source of her happiness always linked to "getting the guy." Why not some achievement of her own? And how do we know Harry will make her happy? Given his propensity towards getting involved in danger, maybe being involved with Harry will only lead to misery and anguish. Carole in defense of Ginny From lrcjestes at earthlink.net Thu Jun 14 20:20:29 2001 From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (lrcjestes at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:20:29 -0000 Subject: Various SHIPPing questions In-Reply-To: <9gb0qa+bs5q@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gb6ad+78ln@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20827 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > But it's > true - that is something I haven't experienced, even though my > boyfriend is my best friend now. It just didn't start out that way. Yeah it is different when your boyfriend becomes your best frind rather than your best friend becoming a boyfriend. Its a whole different dynamic, although it works both ways. > I guess I very much identify with Ginny (which I have said before) > and want Harry to see her differently. JKR has said that Ginny's > character will develop more in OoP and I hope through that, she will > become "worthy" of our hero Harry (I think she's worthy already). As > much as I like Hermione, I do not identify with her at all. Yea!...someone else out there that does not relate to Hermione!!! Of all the women in the books, I'm more a Ginny...although when we all did the quiz about which character we were most like, my list was headed by Bill Weaseley (cool!) I too want to see more of Ginny, but not necessarily to simply become worthy of Harry. I would not be adverse to a Ginny/Harry relationship...my last post not withstanding...but I'd just like to see her more. > I am also very hot as I am sitting in a classroom with no air > condtioning and it is very humid outside - and I'm in the South > Bronx - very stifling indeed. That may account for my comments not > making the best sense right now. Me too sitting in a house with no Air... carole From lemina007 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 00:57:17 2001 From: lemina007 at hotmail.com (Lemina O.) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:57:17 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction References: <9g3413+c789@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20828 I believe Harry's birthday is July 30th. In book 1, when Harry picked up the paper in Hagrids cabin, it said that the bank had been broken into on July 31th. However, Hagrid arrived for Harry the day before, and they spent the night on the rock. That's why I believe his b-day is July 30th. Lemina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From simon at hp.inbox.as Thu Jun 14 20:42:49 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:42:49 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20829 Lemina: <<>> Hagrid arrives at the hut on the stroke of midnight. Harry is looking at Dudley's watch counting down the minutes and then seconds until his birthday. He is thinking of waking Dudley for the fun of it. So the 31st is the correct date. Simon -- "The greatest miracle is not that man stood on the moon; it is that God came and stood in the Earth." - Col. James Irwin --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dragon_starling at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 20:46:36 2001 From: dragon_starling at yahoo.com (dragon_starling at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:46:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gb7rc+3eut@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20830 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lemina O." wrote: > I believe Harry's birthday is July 30th. In book 1, when Harry picked up the paper in Hagrids cabin, it said that the bank had been broken into on July 31th. However, Hagrid arrived for Harry the day before, and they spent the night on the rock. That's why I believe his b-day is July 30th. > > Lemina > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yes but Harry was watching Dudley's watch as it ticked towards midnight, at which time it would be his birthday and July 31, after Hagrid showed up they went to sleep till morning and then went to the back but it was still the same day. Besides, didn't J.K. say July 31 was his b-day in a chat somewhere....? ~Star~ -no not a new Star, same one, new address. I've converted everything to this address. For now. From lrcjestes at earthlink.net Thu Jun 14 20:51:32 2001 From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (lrcjestes at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:51:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gb84k+7a5d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20831 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lemina O." wrote: > I believe Harry's birthday is July 30th. In book 1, when Harry picked up the paper in Hagrids cabin, it said that the bank had been broken into on July 31th. However, Hagrid arrived for Harry the day before, and they spent the night on the rock. That's why I believe his b-day is July 30th. > > Actually he turned 11 during the night he spent on the rock. He was counting down the minutes until July 31st. Later that day they went to Diagon Alley. He says that the Gringotts break-in happened on his birthday. carole From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Jun 14 21:06:39 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:06:39 -0000 Subject: SHIP:(?) Harry/Ginny In-Reply-To: <9gb5q6+ottl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gb90v+5p49@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20832 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lrcjestes at e... wrote: We have seen next to nothing of Ginny under normal everyday > circumstances. How do we know she's this modest, patient, > compassionate, and comforting person. Good points! However, I'll stick by what I said about Ginny and her personality because I feel that JKR has portrayed Ginny that way. If JKR wanted Ginny to antagonize someone else or fight her brothers for some attention, we would have seen that. I imagine JKR's notes on her characters to be very detailed, with lists of traits for each character. I also think her characters have been very consistent; aside from maturing or from experience, her characters have not had sudden personality changes from one book to the next. Ron has always had a bit of a big mouth, Hermione has always been a know-it-all, and Ginny has never been rude, selfish or loud. > > Also I would LOVE to see Ginny happy, but why oh why is the source of > her happiness always linked to "getting the guy." Why not some > achievement of her own? And how do we know Harry will make her > happy? Given his propensity towards getting involved in danger, > maybe being involved with Harry will only lead to misery and anguish. You are so right! No one should count on finding a significant other to also find happiness. About five years ago I said to myself "You need to get your life together and just worry about you", and I did just that; soon after my boyfriend came along and I was ready, not just hoping. I want Ginny to be happy on her own, but for a 14 year old girl who has already had some horrifying experiences, I want her to to be the one Harry dreams of in future books. I'm going with the "these are just books and it's a fantasy" argument here. I was not the most attractive 14 year old myself - let me have my fantasies through HP! --jenny from ravenclaw**************************** From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 21:36:32 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:36:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP:(?) Re: Why *does* Hermione like Ron? References: <9g6q41+toj0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <006f01c0f51a$145714e0$c871023e@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 20833 Jim Ferrer observed, > JKR did say there's something going on, but it's *RON* who doesn't > know it yet ['typical boy', JKR says] meaning it's Hermione who > "knows." This is the opposite of what most of us have thought. After > that, I'm lost. I have no idea what attracts Hermione to Ron. It's too > easy for us to forget that she's only fourteen too. > See above. Apparently he is that thick, a typical fourteen year old > male oaf. With Penny receiving her emails in little bottles on a raft floating somewhere above Houston, I suppose she must have missed that one ... (In passing, must say I'm a little disappointed in the renowned H&H cruise liner ... where's the Good Ship, when you need it, anyway?) So I guess I'll step in to play the ... er ... List Mom's Advocate. Anyway: When I mentioned that quote a few months back, H&H shippers pointed out that the statement above does not actually concern whether Hermione is in love with Ron or vice versa. It only clarifies (1) that something is the case and (2) that Hermione knows it. Who actually has the hots for whom is left open. It could be construed that Ron, as Ovid so aptly put it, "amat sed non sentit amorem," whereas Hermione is aware of a passion she doesn't requite. Of course, Ovid was talking about a girl not a boy--and also (more to the point), he got banished to Romania for epistolary misbehavior, which might well happen to me if I don't slink back into my pen and hide for a while... Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high." From ochfd42 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 21:47:58 2001 From: ochfd42 at yahoo.com (Angela Boyko) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin/Dennis Crevey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010614214758.95591.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20834 Add me to the list of people who just want to give little Dennis Creevey a great big hug. He reminds me of my five year old nephew, who can make an adventure out of anything. As for Colin - well, he does get annoying because most of what he does is hero worship. What I would like to see more of is Colin's interactions with the wizard world as Muggle born. Like the photography thing - is it possible for him to use a Muggle camera to taking moving photos? We know Harry's POV as Muggle-raised, but Harry also has that legacy/scar/avoiding death every book thing going on. He doesn't exactly have time to explore the details of the wizard world. Angela, catching up on 99 posts ===== * * * http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/4439/index.html * * * May the Force be with you _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca From wings909 at aol.com Thu Jun 14 22:01:28 2001 From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:01:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP:(?) Harry/Ginny Message-ID: <32.166b9c3c.285a8e38@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20835 In a message dated 06/14/2001 4:26:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lrcjestes at earthlink.net writes: <<> I can relate and appreciate seing an unrequited love come to > fruition, BUT I disagree necesarily with your characterization of > Ginny. We have seen next to nothing of Ginny under normal everyday > circumstances. How do we know she's this modest, patient, > compassionate, and comforting person. >> We do know she's compassionate and comforting: The first thing comes to mind of the scene right before the Yule Ball where she's comforting Ron over the rejection of Fleur. She wanted to laugh, but didn't for the sake of her brother. Granted, that may or may not be a "normal, everyday" circumstance, just depending on one's point of view, but I'm sure Fred and George wouldn't be patting Ron's arm, can't say I can picture the others doing that either. ; ) Cheers, Paula [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 22:10:01 2001 From: owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com (owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:10:01 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho is wrong Message-ID: <9gbcnp+9gpe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20836 Delurking for a mo' I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but does anyone else feel uncomfortable with Harry having a crush on a Chinese person? I mean, it's not like anything good would come out of it. And plus she's older, so she might try to use him for whatever means. Harry has money, so she might use him for that, or even his great wizard powers. I just get a bad feeling with her being chinese and being older, it's not a good combo, and probably not something that he wants to get into. Just my thoughts...anyone else have anything to add on that? Richard From aaronnicky95 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 22:19:42 2001 From: aaronnicky95 at yahoo.com (aaronnicky95 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:19:42 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: <9gbcnp+9gpe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gbd9u+665p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20837 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., owl_of_hedwig at y... wrote: > Delurking for a mo' > > I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but does anyone else feel > uncomfortable with Harry having a crush on a Chinese person? I mean, > it's not like anything good would come out of it. And plus she's > older, so she might try to use him for whatever means. Harry has > money, so she might use him for that, or even his great wizard powers. > I just get a bad feeling with her being chinese and being older, it's > not a good combo, and probably not something that he wants to get > into. > > Just my thoughts...anyone else have anything to add on that? > > Richard Is this a joke? I can't even be angry because no one can really be so unaware that they are saying something purposefully provoking. If you are just trying to get a rise, try somewhere else. From ebonyink at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 22:28:50 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:28:50 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry/Cho is wrong Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20838 Actively avoiding the rekindling R/H vs. H/H ship debate, but... Richard wrote: >I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but does anyone else feel >uncomfortable with Harry having a crush on a Chinese person? Nope. I think it's pretty cool. :-D >I mean, >it's not like anything good would come out of it. And plus she's >older, so she might try to use him for whatever means. Harry has >money, so she might use him for that, or even his great wizard powers. >I just get a bad feeling with her being chinese and being older, it's >not a good combo, and probably not something that he wants to get >into. Well, I-Think-Cho-is-Evil Syndrome is quite common amongst HP fans, but I haven't caught that dreadful disease yet. There is nothing in canon to support that she is anything but a nice girl who happens to be pretty, popular, and good at Quidditch. Then again, people have this tendency to resent so-called "total packages", those people who seem to be the walking, breathing epitome of Life's Not Fair. As a non-total package who is totally against hatred of got-it-all girls and boys, I always tell people to get over it... when you're occupied with working on the details of your own life, there's little room for envy. Granted, I do not know much about Chinese culture as it exists in the UK, or how traditional Cho's parents might be, but if they didn't have a problem with Cedric, there shouldn't be any problem with Harry on the grounds of race. We also *do not know* how racial and ethnic issues work in this particular milieu, but so far we haven't seen anyone sneering at the notion of interracial dating amongst witches and wizards. As far as Cho being older, she's only a year older. Yes, that's a huge difference at 14 and 15, but I've seen older girl-younger boy matchups amongst high school students in adjacent grades that were quite successful and positive. --Ebony AKA AngieJ <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< Ebony AKA AngieJ ebonyink at hotmail.com Come join us in Paradise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise Visit Schnoogle.com: http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From s_ings at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 22:35:43 2001 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday Danette In-Reply-To: <20010614193346.52998.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010614223543.83377.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20839 'Kay everyone, listen up. It's Danette's birthday today. Anyone care to join in a cyber-toast? Happy Birthday!!!!!!! Sheryll ===== "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From devika261 at aol.com Thu Jun 14 22:41:04 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:41:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: H killing V, Sirius thoughts (was Has anyone thought ... Message-ID: <45.7c47698.285a9780@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20840 In a message dated 6/14/01 5:32:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, andromache815 at hotmail.com writes: > Devika: As for what I think about Sirius dying...well, I'd rather not think > about it. > No! Not my Sirius! Quite apart from what his death would do to Harry > (which would be terrible in itself), it would just be incredibly unfair to > Sirius. Yes, I know, life isn't fair, but still, hasn't the poor man been > through enough? > > Snape and Lupin have suffered a lot, as well. I don't really care for > Sirius, for no other reason than that Snape hates him. I like Lupin, though, > and Snape dislikes him, too. Hmmm...But back to Sirius. He has matured a > lot, though he still has a nasty temper and seems a bit wand-happy. His > temper is kind of like Ron's. I don't know. He's smart and mature now, but I > can't get my impression of him as a boy out of my head. Popular, outgoing, > and well-liked, probably. That's probably why I don't like him. I was never > popular in high school, so automatically dislike fan favorites. > *sigh* I absolutely adore both Lupin and Snape, and I don't want to think about them dying either. There are quite a few characters in the books that I feel sorry for and wish that somehow their suffering could be over...but oh well... As for Sirius, I suppose the impressions we all have of him are purely a matter of opinion, since there is no evidence in canon to support his maturity or immaturity before Azkaban. I personally think that Sirius has many good qualities that must have been present before he was arrested, but that's just my opinion. And if I'm willing to overlook Sirius's temper, I can overlook Snape's vindictiveness and whatever faults Lupin may have as well. I really do like all three of them almost equally, strange though that may be. Sorry for ranting; I just felt like I had to say something about that :) BTW, the description of Sirius as "wand-happy" made me think. I don't think Sirius has a wand at all. I would assume that his wand would have been taken away from him (probably destroyed) when he went to Azkaban. I wonder if he'll get a new one. Does anyone think that might be important? Devika :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 22:55:08 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Girlfriends for Lupin and Black WAS (SHIP: The truth about H/H?) In-Reply-To: <9gb553+dqtn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010614225508.99725.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20841 --- bess_va at lycos.com wrote: > I think the main problem with finding `em > girlfriends is that they > both have too much pride to depend on anyone other > than themselves. > Unless either one has something to offer a woman, he > ain't gonna play. > > (ducking under her desk) Bess > > I have to sgree with you Bess, that is the same feeling I get with these two characters. They both feel responsibily toward those under their charge(and even if she don't like it a girlfriend falls in this catagory) and will do anything and everything to make sure that they are safe (short of breaking the law that is) :) Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From bohners at pobox.com Thu Jun 14 22:57:42 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:57:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry/Cho is wrong References: <9gbcnp+9gpe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <064101c0f525$832e0440$638f23cf@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20842 > Just my thoughts...anyone else have anything to add on that? Yes. Three words: "Yech. Troll bogies." *plonk* -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 14 22:57:45 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:57:45 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday Danette In-Reply-To: <20010614223543.83377.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gbfh9+5l28@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20843 HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, WE LIVE IN A ZOO WE ALL ACT LIKE MONKIES, BUT WE LOVE YOU LOTS TOO!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY DANETTE!!!!!! (Even though it's a crappy poem/song, I hope you will accept it amongst your other birthday wishes!!! Have a great birthday!!!!!!!) Jamieson --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend wrote: > 'Kay everyone, listen up. It's Danette's birthday > today. Anyone care to join in a cyber-toast? > > Happy Birthday!!!!!!! > > Sheryll > > > > > ===== > "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup." > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 23:00:37 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin/Dennis Crevey In-Reply-To: <20010614214758.95591.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010614230037.18485.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20844 --- Angela Boyko wrote: > world as Muggle born. Like the photography thing - > is > it possible for him to use a Muggle camera to taking > moving photos? We know Harry's POV as Muggle-raised, > but Harry also has that legacy/scar/avoiding death > every book thing going on. He doesn't exactly have > time to explore the details of the wizard world. > > Angela, catching up on 99 posts > Actually Angela in CoS colin tells Harry that someone told him that is he develops the pictures in a certain solution(potion? Sorry I don't have the book here to check at the moment can someone pull the relavant text please?) the pictures will move, so there isn't a problem with him taking the pictures with a "normal" camera. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 23:08:37 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Happy Birthday Danette In-Reply-To: <9gbfh9+5l28@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010614230837.2107.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20845 --- Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve wrote: > HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, > WE LIVE IN A ZOO > WE ALL ACT LIKE MONKIES, > BUT WE LOVE YOU LOTS TOO!!! > > HAPPY BIRTHDAY DANETTE!!!!!! (Even though it's a > crappy poem/song, I > hope you will accept it amongst your other birthday > wishes!!! Have > a great birthday!!!!!!!) > > Jamieson > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend > wrote: > > 'Kay everyone, listen up. It's Danette's birthday > > today. Anyone care to join in a cyber-toast? > > > > Happy Birthday!!!!!!! > > > > Sheryll > > > > > > Thanks alot guys. My husband was reading over my shoulder as these came in and tried to take the computer from me so he could go post it on the armouring list we both are on. Needless to say I didn't let him. (Can you imagine what a bunch of 25-45 year old guys that spend their time pounding metal into armour for various middle ages reinactment groups would have to say about this?!?) Danette Amazed that Sheryll even remembered. ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 23:15:53 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:15:53 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday Danette In-Reply-To: <20010614230837.2107.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gbgj9+f3h5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20846 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend > > wrote: > > > 'Kay everyone, listen up. It's Danette's birthday > > > today. Anyone care to join in a cyber-toast? > > > > > > Happy Birthday!!!!!!! > > > > > > Sheryll > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks alot guys. My husband was reading over my > shoulder as these came in and tried to take the > computer from me so he could go post it on the > armouring list we both are on. Needless to say I > didn't let him. (Can you imagine what a bunch of 25-45 > year old guys that spend their time pounding metal > into armour for various middle ages reinactment groups > would have to say about this?!?) > > Danette > > Amazed that Sheryll even remembered. > > ===== > "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? HAPPY BIRTHDAY DANETTE! >From the RodeoDangerQueen! N ;) From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Jun 14 23:59:56 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:59:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand (was Has anyone thought ... In-Reply-To: <45.7c47698.285a9780@aol.com> Message-ID: <9gbj5s+gs4a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20847 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/14/01 5:32:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > andromache815 at h... writes: > > > BTW, the description of Sirius as "wand-happy" made me think. I don't think > Sirius has a wand at all. I would assume that his wand would have been taken > away from him (probably destroyed) when he went to Azkaban. I wonder if > he'll get a new one. Does anyone think that might be important? > Devika :) > The only wands we have seen Sirius use are Ron's and Snape's in PoA. So, he doesn't have his own wand. Am I remembering correctly that Azkaban prisoners have their wands broken, or is that a fanon idea? As a Sirius fan, this is a matter of some concern to me. A wizard without a wand is sort of like a gunslinger without a six-shooter. Well, that's probably an exaggeration, but a wand certainly lets you focus your magical abilities. And it would come in handy if you needed to protect yourself from the odd Death Eater you may run into. Add to that the widening circle of people who know that Sirius can transform into a big, black dog, and I'd say he's running some risks out there in the world. Marianne From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 00:01:33 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: <9gbcnp+9gpe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010615000133.42320.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20848 Hello, --- owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com wrote: > uncomfortable with Harry having a crush on a Chinese > person? I mean, ...?! Please tell me you're joking, 'cause as it is, the only way I can interpret it is that this is one of the most racist thing I've ever heard. So, please explain that comment more thoroughly. > it's not like anything good would come out of it. Why wouldn't anything good come out of it? Many successful marriages are mixed and produce lovely children. Actually, this is probably reverse racism, but mixed-race people seem usually more beautiful... > And plus she's > older, so she might try to use him for whatever > means. Harry has Why would her older age automatically make her a manipulative person? I'm older than my sister and my intentions to her are perfectly altruistic. Actually, my sister might not be a good example. My best friend is 3 years older than his boyfriend and he's got only the best intentions at heart. > money, so she might use him for that, How do we know that Cho didn't come from a rich family herself? > or even his > great wizard powers. Again, how do we know that Harry's powers are any greater than hers? > I just get a bad feeling with her being chinese and > being older, it's I don't understand why would Cho's age or ethnicity make her automatically a scheming witch (pun intended). > Just my thoughts...anyone else have anything to add > on that? I'll refrain from any personal comments, but rest assured that I have'd plenty to make if I have either the time or care to send you an email offlist. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 00:51:11 2001 From: owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com (owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:51:11 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: <20010615000133.42320.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gbm5v+m0nh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20849 > > --- owl_of_hedwig at y... wrote: > > uncomfortable with Harry having a crush on a Chinese > > person? I mean, > > ...?! Please tell me you're joking, 'cause as it is, > the only way I can interpret it is that this is one of > the most racist thing I've ever heard. So, please > explain that comment more thoroughly. > > > it's not like anything good would come out of it. > > Why wouldn't anything good come out of it? Many > successful marriages are mixed and produce lovely > children. > > Actually, this is probably reverse racism, but > mixed-race people seem usually more beautiful... > > > And plus she's > > older, so she might try to use him for whatever > > means. Harry has > > Why would her older age automatically make her a > manipulative person? I'm older than my sister and my > intentions to her are perfectly altruistic. Actually, > my sister might not be a good example. My best friend > is 3 years older than his boyfriend and he's got only > the best intentions at heart. > > > money, so she might use him for that, > > How do we know that Cho didn't come from a rich family > herself? > > > or even his > > great wizard powers. > > Again, how do we know that Harry's powers are any > greater than hers? > > > I just get a bad feeling with her being chinese and > > being older, it's > > I don't understand why would Cho's age or ethnicity > make her automatically a scheming witch (pun > intended). > > > Just my thoughts...anyone else have anything to add > > on that? > > I'll refrain from any personal comments, but rest > assured that I have'd plenty to make if I have either > the time or care to send you an email offlist. > > little Alex > > By refering to this as wrong, it just means that the chinqs are an inferrior race thats all. It's nothing bad, just that they should accept their place in life as being below everyone else. And while we're on the subject of inferiority, faggots should all be below too. God knows that they were created to be killed. If anyone feels that my views are too extreme, then so be it. Richard. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 00:53:09 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does Snape like Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <034f01c0f473$59d4ab60$638f23cf@rebeccab> Message-ID: <20010615005309.78343.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20850 > I've said before and I'll say it again: when Dumbledore goes (as I > believe he will, and soon -- my money's on the end of Book 5), I > don't think anyone will grieve for him more deeply than Severus > Snape. But being Snape, he'll > never let us see that grief, either. He'll suffer in silence, and > he'll suffer alone. > Rebecca J. Bohner I agree with everything Rebecca says except this part. Snape will rage and rant in his grief, lashing out at everyone around him but especially at Harry Potter who will somehow have had something to do with the tragedy. Everyone will be convinced that old Severus has finally cracked and will worry about him returning to the Dark Side. He will help this speculation by disappearing for a while and driving everyone crazy with fear - not so much for him but for what he might do with the info he has on the Good Guys. Eventually he will come around but after a maturation process that will be long and tortuous. My view, anyway. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 15 00:54:54 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:54:54 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: <20010615000133.42320.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gbmcu+m0o6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20851 Hello Everybody!!!!!! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Why would her older age automatically make her a > manipulative person? I'm older than my sister and my > intentions to her are perfectly altruistic. Actually, > my sister might not be a good example. My best friend > is 3 years older than his boyfriend and he's got only > the best intentions at heart. > I have to agree with u here. Age shouldn't make a difference about a person. Almost all the guys I've been with have all been older men. Some really weren't smart decisions, but that's besides the point. . Age doesn't matter in affairs of the heart (though I suspect H and C are far away from that yet), at least in my experience. Hugs Jamieson From lissannej at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 01:08:35 2001 From: lissannej at hotmail.com (lissannej at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:08:35 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: <9gbm5v+m0nh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gbn6j+r94s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20852 By refering to this as wrong, it just means that the chinqs are an > inferrior race thats all. It's nothing bad, just that they should > accept their place in life as being below everyone else. > > And while we're on the subject of inferiority, faggots should all be > below too. God knows that they were created to be killed. > > If anyone feels that my views are too extreme, then so be it. > > Richard. *delurks* this is my first post on the board...and I'm sorry that it has to be to comment on this. I don't think I've *ever* been left speechless by a post before, but you're unbelieveable. What on earth possessed you to post the above? Your views are not extreme...they're incredibly racist. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, but comments like that are, I'm sure, not welcome here. They serve no purpose other than to offend. Inferior race? Last time I looked, there was only *ONE* race - the human race. Richard, grow up, and get a life. Meanwhile, crawl back under the rock from which you came. Lissanne. From mlmnb at msn.com Fri Jun 15 01:16:22 2001 From: mlmnb at msn.com (mlmnb) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:16:22 -0400 Subject: quiz References: <992566503.3243.62531.l9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001201c0f538$cbc2f860$5ad7fea9@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20853 Did I miss the quiz mentioned today about whose personality is most like your own? Anyone know where I can find it? Thanks! Dane, Ravenclaw ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 8:55 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 976 > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > There are 25 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: Various SHIPPing questions > From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net > 2. Re: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction > From: "Lemina O." > 3. RE: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction > From: "Simon" > 4. Re: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction > From: dragon_starling at yahoo.com > 5. Re: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction > From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net > 6. Re: SHIP:(?) Harry/Ginny > From: meboriqua at aol.com > 7. Re: SHIP:(?) Re: Why *does* Hermione like Ron? > From: "Aberforth's Goat" > 8. Re: Re: Colin/Dennis Crevey > From: Angela Boyko > 9. Re: SHIP:(?) Harry/Ginny > From: wings909 at aol.com > 10. Harry/Cho is wrong > From: owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com > 11. Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > From: aaronnicky95 at yahoo.com > 12. Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > From: "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" > 13. Happy Birthday Danette > From: Sheryll Townsend > 14. Re: Re: H killing V, Sirius thoughts (was Has anyone thought ... > From: devika261 at aol.com > 15. Re: Re: Girlfriends for Lupin and Black WAS (SHIP: The truth about H/H?) > From: Danette Schardt-Cordova > 16. Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > From: "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" > 17. Re: Happy Birthday Danette > From: "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" > 18. Re: Re: Colin/Dennis Crevey > From: Danette Schardt-Cordova > 19. Re: Re: Happy Birthday Danette > From: Danette Schardt-Cordova > 20. Re: Happy Birthday Danette > From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com > 21. Re: Sirius' Wand (was Has anyone thought ... > From: Zarleycat at aol.com > 22. Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > From: "Alexandra Y. Kwan" > 23. Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > From: owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com > 24. Re: Does Snape like Dumbledore? > From: Magda Grantwich > 25. Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > From: "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:20:29 -0000 > From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net > Subject: Re: Various SHIPPing questions > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > > > But it's > > true - that is something I haven't experienced, even though my > > boyfriend is my best friend now. It just didn't start out that way. > > Yeah it is different when your boyfriend becomes your best frind > rather than your best friend becoming a boyfriend. Its a whole > different dynamic, although it works both ways. > > > > I guess I very much identify with Ginny (which I have said before) > > and want Harry to see her differently. JKR has said that Ginny's > > character will develop more in OoP and I hope through that, she > will > > become "worthy" of our hero Harry (I think she's worthy already). > As > > much as I like Hermione, I do not identify with her at all. > > Yea!...someone else out there that does not relate to Hermione!!! Of > all the women in the books, I'm more a Ginny...although when we all > did the quiz about which character we were most like, my list was > headed by Bill Weaseley (cool!) I too want to see more of Ginny, but > not necessarily to simply become worthy of Harry. I would not be > adverse to a Ginny/Harry relationship...my last post not > withstanding...but I'd just like to see her more. > > > I am also very hot as I am sitting in a classroom with no air > > condtioning and it is very humid outside - and I'm in the South > > Bronx - very stifling indeed. That may account for my comments not > > making the best sense right now. > > Me too sitting in a house with no Air... > > carole > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:57:17 -1000 > From: "Lemina O." > Subject: Re: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction > > I believe Harry's birthday is July 30th. In book 1, when Harry picked up the paper in Hagrids cabin, it said that the bank had been broken into on July 31th. However, Hagrid arrived for Harry the day before, and they spent the night on the rock. That's why I believe his b-day is July 30th. > > Lemina > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:42:49 +0100 > From: "Simon" > Subject: RE: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction > > Lemina: << picked up the paper in Hagrids cabin, it said that the bank had been broken > into on July 31th. However, Hagrid arrived for Harry the day before, and they > spent the night on the rock. That's why I believe his b-day is July 30th.>>> > > Hagrid arrives at the hut on the stroke of midnight. Harry is looking at > Dudley's watch counting down the minutes and then seconds until his birthday. > He is thinking of waking Dudley for the fun of it. So the 31st is the correct > date. > > > > Simon > -- > "The greatest miracle is not that man stood on the moon; it is that God came > and stood in the Earth." > - Col. James Irwin > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:46:36 -0000 > From: dragon_starling at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lemina O." wrote: > > I believe Harry's birthday is July 30th. In book 1, when Harry > picked up the paper in Hagrids cabin, it said that the bank had been > broken into on July 31th. However, Hagrid arrived for Harry the day > before, and they spent the night on the rock. That's why I believe > his b-day is July 30th. > > > > Lemina > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Yes but Harry was watching Dudley's watch as it ticked towards > midnight, at which time it would be his birthday and July 31, after > Hagrid showed up they went to sleep till morning and then went to the > back but it was still the same day. Besides, didn't J.K. say July 31 > was his b-day in a chat somewhere....? > ~Star~ > > -no not a new Star, same one, new address. I've converted everything > to this address. For now. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:51:32 -0000 > From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net > Subject: Re: Harry's B-Day Proof With a Correction > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lemina O." wrote: > > I believe Harry's birthday is July 30th. In book 1, when Harry > picked up the paper in Hagrids cabin, it said that the bank had been > broken into on July 31th. However, Hagrid arrived for Harry the day > before, and they spent the night on the rock. That's why I believe > his b-day is July 30th. > > > > > > Actually he turned 11 during the night he spent on the rock. He was > counting down the minutes until July 31st. Later that day they went > to Diagon Alley. He says that the Gringotts break-in happened on his > birthday. > > carole > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:06:39 -0000 > From: meboriqua at aol.com > Subject: Re: SHIP:(?) Harry/Ginny > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lrcjestes at e... wrote: > We have seen next to nothing of Ginny under normal everyday > > circumstances. How do we know she's this modest, patient, > > compassionate, and comforting person. > > Good points! However, I'll stick by what I said about Ginny and her > personality because I feel that JKR has portrayed Ginny that way. If > JKR wanted Ginny to antagonize someone else or fight her brothers for > some attention, we would have seen that. I imagine JKR's notes on her > characters to be very detailed, with lists of traits for each > character. I also think her characters have been very consistent; > aside from maturing or from experience, her characters have not had > sudden personality changes from one book to the next. Ron has always > had a bit of a big mouth, Hermione has always been a know-it-all, and > Ginny has never been rude, selfish or loud. > > > > Also I would LOVE to see Ginny happy, but why oh why is the source > of > > her happiness always linked to "getting the guy." Why not some > > achievement of her own? And how do we know Harry will make her > > happy? Given his propensity towards getting involved in danger, > > maybe being involved with Harry will only lead to misery and > anguish. > > You are so right! No one should count on finding a significant other > to also find happiness. About five years ago I said to myself "You > need to get your life together and just worry about you", and I did > just that; soon after my boyfriend came along and I was ready, not > just hoping. I want Ginny to be happy on her own, but for a 14 year > old girl who has already had some horrifying experiences, I want her > to to be the one Harry dreams of in future books. I'm going with the > "these are just books and it's a fantasy" argument here. I was not > the most attractive 14 year old myself - let me have my fantasies > through HP! > > --jenny from ravenclaw**************************** > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:36:32 +0200 > From: "Aberforth's Goat" > Subject: Re: SHIP:(?) Re: Why *does* Hermione like Ron? > > Jim Ferrer observed, > > JKR did say there's something going on, but it's *RON* who doesn't > > know it yet ['typical boy', JKR says] meaning it's Hermione who > > "knows." This is the opposite of what most of us have thought. After > > that, I'm lost. I have no idea what attracts Hermione to Ron. It's too > > easy for us to forget that she's only fourteen too. > > > > > See above. Apparently he is that thick, a typical fourteen year old > > male oaf. > > With Penny receiving her emails in little bottles on a raft floating > somewhere above Houston, I suppose she must have missed that one ... (In > passing, must say I'm a little disappointed in the renowned H&H cruise liner > ... where's the Good Ship, when you need it, anyway?) So I guess I'll step > in to play the ... er ... List Mom's Advocate. > > Anyway: When I mentioned that quote a few months back, H&H shippers pointed > out that the statement above does not actually concern whether Hermione is > in love with Ron or vice versa. It only clarifies (1) that something is the > case and (2) that Hermione knows it. Who actually has the hots for whom is > left open. > > > It could be construed that Ron, as Ovid so aptly put it, "amat sed non > sentit amorem," whereas Hermione is aware of a passion she doesn't requite. > Of course, Ovid was talking about a girl not a boy--and also (more to the > point), he got banished to Romania for epistolary misbehavior, which might > well happen to me if I don't slink back into my pen and hide for a while... > > > Baaaaaa! > > > Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) > _______________________ > > > "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising > inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, > but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high." > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:47:58 -0400 (EDT) > From: Angela Boyko > Subject: Re: Re: Colin/Dennis Crevey > > Add me to the list of people who just want to give > little Dennis Creevey a great big hug. He reminds me > of my five year old nephew, who can make an adventure > out of anything. > > As for Colin - well, he does get annoying because most > of what he does is hero worship. What I would like to > see more of is Colin's interactions with the wizard > world as Muggle born. Like the photography thing - is > it possible for him to use a Muggle camera to taking > moving photos? We know Harry's POV as Muggle-raised, > but Harry also has that legacy/scar/avoiding death > every book thing going on. He doesn't exactly have > time to explore the details of the wizard world. > > Angela, catching up on 99 posts > > ===== > * * * http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/4439/index.html * * * > May the Force be with you > > _______________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:01:28 EDT > From: wings909 at aol.com > Subject: Re: SHIP:(?) Harry/Ginny > > In a message dated 06/14/2001 4:26:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > lrcjestes at earthlink.net writes: > > <<> I can relate and appreciate seing an unrequited love come to > > fruition, BUT I disagree necesarily with your characterization of > > Ginny. We have seen next to nothing of Ginny under normal everyday > > circumstances. How do we know she's this modest, patient, > > compassionate, and comforting person. >> > > We do know she's compassionate and comforting: The first thing comes to mind > of the scene right before the Yule Ball where she's comforting Ron over the > rejection of Fleur. She wanted to laugh, but didn't for the sake of her > brother. > > Granted, that may or may not be a "normal, everyday" circumstance, just > depending on one's point of view, but I'm sure Fred and George wouldn't be > patting Ron's arm, can't say I can picture the others doing that either. ; ) > > > Cheers, > Paula > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:10:01 -0000 > From: owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com > Subject: Harry/Cho is wrong > > Delurking for a mo' > > I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but does anyone else feel > uncomfortable with Harry having a crush on a Chinese person? I mean, > it's not like anything good would come out of it. And plus she's > older, so she might try to use him for whatever means. Harry has > money, so she might use him for that, or even his great wizard powers. > I just get a bad feeling with her being chinese and being older, it's > not a good combo, and probably not something that he wants to get > into. > > Just my thoughts...anyone else have anything to add on that? > > Richard > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:19:42 -0000 > From: aaronnicky95 at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., owl_of_hedwig at y... wrote: > > Delurking for a mo' > > > > I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but does anyone else > feel > > uncomfortable with Harry having a crush on a Chinese person? I > mean, > > it's not like anything good would come out of it. And plus she's > > older, so she might try to use him for whatever means. Harry has > > money, so she might use him for that, or even his great wizard > powers. > > I just get a bad feeling with her being chinese and being older, > it's > > not a good combo, and probably not something that he wants to get > > into. > > > > Just my thoughts...anyone else have anything to add on that? > > > > Richard > > Is this a joke? I can't even be angry because no one can really be > so unaware that they are saying something purposefully provoking. If > you are just trying to get a rise, try somewhere else. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:28:50 > From: "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" > Subject: Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > > Actively avoiding the rekindling R/H vs. H/H ship debate, but... > > Richard wrote: > >I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but does anyone else feel > >uncomfortable with Harry having a crush on a Chinese person? > > Nope. I think it's pretty cool. :-D > > >I mean, > >it's not like anything good would come out of it. And plus she's > >older, so she might try to use him for whatever means. Harry has > >money, so she might use him for that, or even his great wizard powers. > >I just get a bad feeling with her being chinese and being older, it's > >not a good combo, and probably not something that he wants to get > >into. > > Well, I-Think-Cho-is-Evil Syndrome is quite common amongst HP fans, but I > haven't caught that dreadful disease yet. There is nothing in canon to > support that she is anything but a nice girl who happens to be pretty, > popular, and good at Quidditch. Then again, people have this tendency to > resent so-called "total packages", those people who seem to be the walking, > breathing epitome of Life's Not Fair. As a non-total package who is totally > against hatred of got-it-all girls and boys, I always tell people to get > over it... when you're occupied with working on the details of your own > life, there's little room for envy. > > Granted, I do not know much about Chinese culture as it exists in the UK, or > how traditional Cho's parents might be, but if they didn't have a problem > with Cedric, there shouldn't be any problem with Harry on the grounds of > race. We also *do not know* how racial and ethnic issues work in this > particular milieu, but so far we haven't seen anyone sneering at the notion > of interracial dating amongst witches and wizards. > > As far as Cho being older, she's only a year older. Yes, that's a huge > difference at 14 and 15, but I've seen older girl-younger boy matchups > amongst high school students in adjacent grades that were quite successful > and positive. > > --Ebony AKA AngieJ > > <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< > Ebony AKA AngieJ > ebonyink at hotmail.com > > Come join us in Paradise! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise > > Visit Schnoogle.com: > http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ > > Get Psyched out... > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:35:43 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sheryll Townsend > Subject: Happy Birthday Danette > > 'Kay everyone, listen up. It's Danette's birthday > today. Anyone care to join in a cyber-toast? > > Happy Birthday!!!!!!! > > Sheryll > > > > > ===== > "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup." > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:41:04 EDT > From: devika261 at aol.com > Subject: Re: Re: H killing V, Sirius thoughts (was Has anyone thought ... > > In a message dated 6/14/01 5:32:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > andromache815 at hotmail.com writes: > > > > Devika: As for what I think about Sirius dying...well, I'd rather not think > > about it. > > No! Not my Sirius! Quite apart from what his death would do to Harry > > (which would be terrible in itself), it would just be incredibly unfair to > > Sirius. Yes, I know, life isn't fair, but still, hasn't the poor man been > > through enough? > > > > Snape and Lupin have suffered a lot, as well. I don't really care for > > Sirius, for no other reason than that Snape hates him. I like Lupin, though, > > and Snape dislikes him, too. Hmmm...But back to Sirius. He has matured a > > lot, though he still has a nasty temper and seems a bit wand-happy. His > > temper is kind of like Ron's. I don't know. He's smart and mature now, but I > > can't get my impression of him as a boy out of my head. Popular, outgoing, > > and well-liked, probably. That's probably why I don't like him. I was never > > popular in high school, so automatically dislike fan favorites. > > > > *sigh* I absolutely adore both Lupin and Snape, and I don't want to think > about them dying either. There are quite a few characters in the books that > I feel sorry for and wish that somehow their suffering could be over...but oh > well... > As for Sirius, I suppose the impressions we all have of him are purely a > matter of opinion, since there is no evidence in canon to support his > maturity or immaturity before Azkaban. I personally think that Sirius has > many good qualities that must have been present before he was arrested, but > that's just my opinion. And if I'm willing to overlook Sirius's temper, I > can overlook Snape's vindictiveness and whatever faults Lupin may have as > well. I really do like all three of them almost equally, strange though that > may be. > Sorry for ranting; I just felt like I had to say something about that :) > BTW, the description of Sirius as "wand-happy" made me think. I don't think > Sirius has a wand at all. I would assume that his wand would have been taken > away from him (probably destroyed) when he went to Azkaban. I wonder if > he'll get a new one. Does anyone think that might be important? > Devika :) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:55:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Danette Schardt-Cordova > Subject: Re: Re: Girlfriends for Lupin and Black WAS (SHIP: The truth about H/H?) > > > --- bess_va at lycos.com wrote: > > > I think the main problem with finding `em > > girlfriends is that they > > both have too much pride to depend on anyone other > > than themselves. > > Unless either one has something to offer a woman, he > > ain't gonna play. > > > > (ducking under her desk) Bess > > > > > > I have to sgree with you Bess, that is the same > feeling I get with these two characters. They both > feel responsibily toward those under their charge(and > even if she don't like it a girlfriend falls in this > catagory) and will do anything and everything to make > sure that they are safe (short of breaking the law > that is) :) > > Danette > > ===== > "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:57:42 -0400 > From: "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" > Subject: Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > > > Just my thoughts...anyone else have anything to add on that? > > Yes. Three words: "Yech. Troll bogies." > > *plonk* > -- > Rebecca J. Bohner > rebeccaj at pobox.com > http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 17 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:57:45 -0000 > From: "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Danette > > HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, > WE LIVE IN A ZOO > WE ALL ACT LIKE MONKIES, > BUT WE LOVE YOU LOTS TOO!!! > > HAPPY BIRTHDAY DANETTE!!!!!! (Even though it's a crappy poem/song, I > hope you will accept it amongst your other birthday wishes!!! Have > a great birthday!!!!!!!) > > Jamieson > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend wrote: > > 'Kay everyone, listen up. It's Danette's birthday > > today. Anyone care to join in a cyber-toast? > > > > Happy Birthday!!!!!!! > > > > Sheryll > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and > taste good with ketchup." > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 18 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:00:37 -0700 (PDT) > From: Danette Schardt-Cordova > Subject: Re: Re: Colin/Dennis Crevey > > > --- Angela Boyko wrote: > > > world as Muggle born. Like the photography thing - > > is > > it possible for him to use a Muggle camera to taking > > moving photos? We know Harry's POV as Muggle-raised, > > but Harry also has that legacy/scar/avoiding death > > every book thing going on. He doesn't exactly have > > time to explore the details of the wizard world. > > > > Angela, catching up on 99 posts > > > > Actually Angela in CoS colin tells Harry that someone > told him that is he develops the pictures in a certain > solution(potion? Sorry I don't have the book here to > check at the moment can someone pull the relavant text > please?) the pictures will move, so there isn't a > problem with him taking the pictures with a "normal" > camera. > > Danette > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 19 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:08:37 -0700 (PDT) > From: Danette Schardt-Cordova > Subject: Re: Re: Happy Birthday Danette > > > --- Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve > wrote: > > HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, > > WE LIVE IN A ZOO > > WE ALL ACT LIKE MONKIES, > > BUT WE LOVE YOU LOTS TOO!!! > > > > HAPPY BIRTHDAY DANETTE!!!!!! (Even though it's a > > crappy poem/song, I > > hope you will accept it amongst your other birthday > > wishes!!! Have > > a great birthday!!!!!!!) > > > > Jamieson > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend > > wrote: > > > 'Kay everyone, listen up. It's Danette's birthday > > > today. Anyone care to join in a cyber-toast? > > > > > > Happy Birthday!!!!!!! > > > > > > Sheryll > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks alot guys. My husband was reading over my > shoulder as these came in and tried to take the > computer from me so he could go post it on the > armouring list we both are on. Needless to say I > didn't let him. (Can you imagine what a bunch of 25-45 > year old guys that spend their time pounding metal > into armour for various middle ages reinactment groups > would have to say about this?!?) > > Danette > > Amazed that Sheryll even remembered. > > ===== > "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 20 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:15:53 -0000 > From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Danette > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Danette Schardt-Cordova > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sheryll Townsend > > > wrote: > > > > 'Kay everyone, listen up. It's Danette's birthday > > > > today. Anyone care to join in a cyber-toast? > > > > > > > > Happy Birthday!!!!!!! > > > > > > > > Sheryll > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks alot guys. My husband was reading over my > > shoulder as these came in and tried to take the > > computer from me so he could go post it on the > > armouring list we both are on. Needless to say I > > didn't let him. (Can you imagine what a bunch of 25-45 > > year old guys that spend their time pounding metal > > into armour for various middle ages reinactment groups > > would have to say about this?!?) > > > > Danette > > > > Amazed that Sheryll even remembered. > > > > ===== > > "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest > meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > HAPPY BIRTHDAY DANETTE! > From the RodeoDangerQueen! > > N ;) > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 21 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:59:56 -0000 > From: Zarleycat at aol.com > Subject: Re: Sirius' Wand (was Has anyone thought ... > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., devika261 at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 6/14/01 5:32:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > andromache815 at h... writes: > > > > > > BTW, the description of Sirius as "wand-happy" made me think. I > don't think > > Sirius has a wand at all. I would assume that his wand would have > been taken > > away from him (probably destroyed) when he went to Azkaban. I > wonder if > > he'll get a new one. Does anyone think that might be important? > > Devika :) > > > The only wands we have seen Sirius use are Ron's and Snape's in PoA. > So, he doesn't have his own wand. Am I remembering correctly that > Azkaban prisoners have their wands broken, or is that a fanon idea? > > As a Sirius fan, this is a matter of some concern to me. A wizard > without a wand is sort of like a gunslinger without a six-shooter. > Well, that's probably an exaggeration, but a wand certainly lets you > focus your magical abilities. And it would come in handy if you > needed to protect yourself from the odd Death Eater you may run > into. Add to that the widening circle of people who know that Sirius > can transform into a big, black dog, and I'd say he's running some > risks out there in the world. > > Marianne > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 22 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:01:33 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Alexandra Y. Kwan" > Subject: Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > > Hello, > > --- owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com wrote: > > uncomfortable with Harry having a crush on a Chinese > > person? I mean, > > ...?! Please tell me you're joking, 'cause as it is, > the only way I can interpret it is that this is one of > the most racist thing I've ever heard. So, please > explain that comment more thoroughly. > > > it's not like anything good would come out of it. > > Why wouldn't anything good come out of it? Many > successful marriages are mixed and produce lovely > children. > > Actually, this is probably reverse racism, but > mixed-race people seem usually more beautiful... > > > And plus she's > > older, so she might try to use him for whatever > > means. Harry has > > Why would her older age automatically make her a > manipulative person? I'm older than my sister and my > intentions to her are perfectly altruistic. Actually, > my sister might not be a good example. My best friend > is 3 years older than his boyfriend and he's got only > the best intentions at heart. > > > money, so she might use him for that, > > How do we know that Cho didn't come from a rich family > herself? > > > or even his > > great wizard powers. > > Again, how do we know that Harry's powers are any > greater than hers? > > > I just get a bad feeling with her being chinese and > > being older, it's > > I don't understand why would Cho's age or ethnicity > make her automatically a scheming witch (pun > intended). > > > Just my thoughts...anyone else have anything to add > > on that? > > I'll refrain from any personal comments, but rest > assured that I have'd plenty to make if I have either > the time or care to send you an email offlist. > > little Alex > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 23 > Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:51:11 -0000 > From: owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > > > > > > --- owl_of_hedwig at y... wrote: > > > uncomfortable with Harry having a crush on a Chinese > > > person? I mean, > > > > ...?! Please tell me you're joking, 'cause as it is, > > the only way I can interpret it is that this is one of > > the most racist thing I've ever heard. So, please > > explain that comment more thoroughly. > > > > > it's not like anything good would come out of it. > > > > Why wouldn't anything good come out of it? Many > > successful marriages are mixed and produce lovely > > children. > > > > Actually, this is probably reverse racism, but > > mixed-race people seem usually more beautiful... > > > > > And plus she's > > > older, so she might try to use him for whatever > > > means. Harry has > > > > Why would her older age automatically make her a > > manipulative person? I'm older than my sister and my > > intentions to her are perfectly altruistic. Actually, > > my sister might not be a good example. My best friend > > is 3 years older than his boyfriend and he's got only > > the best intentions at heart. > > > > > money, so she might use him for that, > > > > How do we know that Cho didn't come from a rich family > > herself? > > > > > or even his > > > great wizard powers. > > > > Again, how do we know that Harry's powers are any > > greater than hers? > > > > > I just get a bad feeling with her being chinese and > > > being older, it's > > > > I don't understand why would Cho's age or ethnicity > > make her automatically a scheming witch (pun > > intended). > > > > > Just my thoughts...anyone else have anything to add > > > on that? > > > > I'll refrain from any personal comments, but rest > > assured that I have'd plenty to make if I have either > > the time or care to send you an email offlist. > > > > little Alex > > > > > > By refering to this as wrong, it just means that the chinqs are an > inferrior race thats all. It's nothing bad, just that they should > accept their place in life as being below everyone else. > > And while we're on the subject of inferiority, faggots should all be > below too. God knows that they were created to be killed. > > If anyone feels that my views are too extreme, then so be it. > > Richard. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 24 > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:53:09 -0700 (PDT) > From: Magda Grantwich > Subject: Re: Does Snape like Dumbledore? > > > I've said before and I'll say it again: when Dumbledore goes (as I > > believe he will, and soon -- my money's on the end of Book 5), I > > don't think anyone will grieve for him more deeply than Severus > > Snape. But being Snape, he'll > > never let us see that grief, either. He'll suffer in silence, and > > he'll suffer alone. > > Rebecca J. Bohner > > > I agree with everything Rebecca says except this part. Snape will > rage and rant in his grief, lashing out at everyone around him but > especially at Harry Potter who will somehow have had something to do > with the tragedy. Everyone will be convinced that old Severus has > finally cracked and will worry about him returning to the Dark Side. > He will help this speculation by disappearing for a while and driving > everyone crazy with fear - not so much for him but for what he might > do with the info he has on the Good Guys. > > Eventually he will come around but after a maturation process that > will be long and tortuous. > > My view, anyway. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 25 > Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:54:54 -0000 > From: "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" > Subject: Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > > Hello Everybody!!!!!! > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > > > Why would her older age automatically make her a > > manipulative person? I'm older than my sister and my > > intentions to her are perfectly altruistic. Actually, > > my sister might not be a good example. My best friend > > is 3 years older than his boyfriend and he's got only > > the best intentions at heart. > > > > I have to agree with u here. Age shouldn't make a difference about a > person. Almost all the guys I've been with have all been older men. > Some really weren't smart decisions, but that's besides the point. > . Age doesn't matter in affairs of the heart (though I suspect H > and C are far away from that yet), at least in my experience. > > Hugs > Jamieson > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bohners at pobox.com Fri Jun 15 01:18:24 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:18:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does Snape like Dumbledore? References: <20010615005309.78343.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <06d401c0f539$b9049480$638f23cf@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20854 > > I've said before and I'll say it again: when Dumbledore goes (as I > > believe he will, and soon -- my money's on the end of Book 5), I > > don't think anyone will grieve for him more deeply than Severus > > Snape. But being Snape, he'll > > never let us see that grief, either. He'll suffer in silence, and > > he'll suffer alone. > I agree with everything Rebecca says except this part. Snape will > rage and rant in his grief, lashing out at everyone around him but > especially at Harry Potter who will somehow have had something to do > with the tragedy. Everyone will be convinced that old Severus has > finally cracked and will worry about him returning to the Dark Side. I don't think so -- because Snape has always taken pains to give the appearance, especially in front of people like Draco Malfoy, that he doesn't care for Dumbledore at all and would be perfectly content to see him removed. Remember when Draco tells Snape outright that he thinks *he* should be Headmaster, and far from lashing out at him for making disloyal remarks about Dumbledore, Snape just smirks. That is why I am convinced that Snape will practically kill himself to appear detached and even callous toward Dumbledore's death in public, while suffering like a dog in private. And I am sure that Harry, who only gets to see the public Snape, will hate him all the more for it. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 01:39:01 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:39:01 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry/Cho is wrong References: <9gbm5v+m0nh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <003f01c0f53b$f4da59c0$d611eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20855 Hello, > By refering to this as wrong, it just means that the chinqs are an > inferrior race thats all. It's nothing bad, just that they should > accept their place in life as being below everyone else. > > And while we're on the subject of inferiority, faggots should all be > below too. God knows that they were created to be killed. > > If anyone feels that my views are too extreme, then so be it. ...I think I'll just quietly refrain from this discussion and await the decisions of the wise and venerable Mod Squad . Btw, it's chink, not chinq; if you have to resort to racist name-calling, at least get it right. I guess now is not a good time to mention that the people of the Middle Kingdom did once think that they're center of the world and everyone else were just uncivilized barbarians, huh? little Alex From celeste_827 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 01:33:45 2001 From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (celeste_827 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:33:45 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: <9gbn6j+r94s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gbolp+iks9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20856 > By refering to this as wrong, it just means that the chinqs are an > > inferrior race thats all. It's nothing bad, just that they should > > accept their place in life as being below everyone else. > > > > And while we're on the subject of inferiority, faggots should all > be > > below too. God knows that they were created to be killed. > > > > If anyone feels that my views are too extreme, then so be it. > > > > Richard. Either stop this open racism or get off this board now. I- and other Chinese like me- do not have to tolerate this absurdity. This is not a place for you to flaunt your intolerance. Fix your posting style or get out. And if you do not want to change to conform to board rules, I am sure the moderators will be all too happy to oblige me by kicking you out permanently. - Celeste From saitaina at wizzards.net Fri Jun 15 01:35:25 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:35:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry/Cho is wrong References: <9gbolp+iks9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <002501c0f53b$746c3ce0$4f4e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 20857 I am not a moderator and would normally leave this up to them, but I ask in all kindness and love, please ignore this poster. Show them all the respect they deserve (sarcastic tone, notice the sarcastic tone) and ignore them. We don't even need to start acknowledging the comments in the message by responding. Thank you kindly and glomps to all sensible list members, Saitaina ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 6:33 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry/Cho is wrong > > By refering to this as wrong, it just means that the chinqs are an > > > inferrior race thats all. It's nothing bad, just that they should > > > accept their place in life as being below everyone else. > > > > > > And while we're on the subject of inferiority, faggots should all > > be > > > below too. God knows that they were created to be killed. > > > > > > If anyone feels that my views are too extreme, then so be it. > > > > > > Richard. > > Either stop this open racism or get off this board now. I- and other > Chinese like me- do not have to tolerate this absurdity. This is not a > place for you to flaunt your intolerance. > > Fix your posting style or get out. And if you do not want to change to > conform to board rules, I am sure the moderators will be all too happy > to oblige me by kicking you out permanently. > > - Celeste > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Jun 15 02:03:31 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:03:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010614184840.00e27740@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20858 At 10:28 PM 6/14/01 +0000, Ebony Elizabeth Thomas wrote: >Well, I-Think-Cho-is-Evil Syndrome is quite common amongst HP fans, but I >haven't caught that dreadful disease yet. There is nothing in canon to >support that she is anything but a nice girl who happens to be pretty, >popular, and good at Quidditch. Unless one is wondering if the way she takes base advantage of Harry's "being a gentleman" at the Quidditch match is a a sinister bit foreshadowing... (I'm not saying I believe that, but I think it's possible.) >We also *do not know* how racial and ethnic issues work in this >particular milieu, but so far we haven't seen anyone sneering at the notion >of interracial dating amongst witches and wizards. Even V shows no sign of *racial* bigotry... -- Dave From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 15 02:13:33 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 02:13:33 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: <9gbm5v+m0nh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gbr0d+33ha@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20859 Hello Everyone!!!! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., owl_of_hedwig at y... wrote: > > And while we're on the subject of inferiority, faggots should all be > below too. God knows that they were created to be killed. > > If anyone feels that my views are too extreme, then so be it. > > Richard. Um......Okay.... Personally, I feel that the GLBT community is here to show others how to be tolerant, and vise versa. We can all learn from each other, and be happy that we have the world to share with each other. So, why would gays be put here to be killed? Things like this just flabbergast me! Hugs to all (except Richard!) Jamieson From mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 02:26:43 2001 From: mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com (Michi) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: <9gbcnp+9gpe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010615022643.6353.qmail@web3206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20860 --- owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com wrote: > Delurking for a mo' > > I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but does > anyone else feel > uncomfortable with Harry having a crush on a Chinese > person? I mean, > it's not like anything good would come out of it. > And plus she's > older, so she might try to use him for whatever > means. Harry has > money, so she might use him for that, or even his > great wizard powers. > I just get a bad feeling with her being chinese and > being older, it's > not a good combo, and probably not something that he > wants to get > into. *counts to 10 very, very slowly and lets out a long breath* Harry, like any other person/character, has the right to have a crush on anyone that he so chooses. Cho's pretty and she's good at Quidditch and so she happens to be Chinese. And she happens to be older which really isn't that big of a deal ~ lots of young boys get crushes on older girls (like older sisters of their friends, etc.) It's not like there's that much of an age gap. But if you're insuinating that *because* Cho is Chinese that she would use him for his money or his power, I'd suggest that you please re-evaluate your thoughts. That's stereotypical and racist and frankly not nice at all. > Just my thoughts...anyone else have anything to add > on that? My thoughts have been said. There's nothing wrong with interracial couples, crushes, anything. If you posed this question to be inflamatory then well... please get your head checked. If you posed this question as an honest question, please explain a bit further to avoid insulting people. I am Asian and by your phrasing I read that you believe Chinese (and extending, Asians) to be people that would use someone and that nothing good can come of an interracial relationship with them, and was therefore insulted. To put it in polite terms, it's really not nice to think that way . Michelle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 15 02:27:27 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 02:27:27 -0000 Subject: DO NOT REPLY! (was Re: Harry/Cho is wrong) In-Reply-To: <002501c0f53b$746c3ce0$4f4e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <9gbrqf+s3pq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20861 "Saitaina" wrote: "I am not a moderator and would normally leave this up to them, but I ask in all kindness and love, please ignore this poster. Show them all the respect they deserve (sarcastic tone, notice the sarcastic tone) and ignore them. We don't even need to start acknowledging the comments in the message by responding." --A forbidden "me too!" post that I think is justified. The views Richard expressed are not only close-minded, but go against this wonderful series we're here to discuss. I agree with all those who say JKR isn't dealing with injustices from our world, but rather writing allegory of magical groups that parallel those of the "muggle" world. (i.e. Werewolves, Giants, House- Elves, muggle borns, squibs etc.) If you want to discuss this (Cho etc.) issue further in a civilised tone without the hate Richard tried to bring up feel free to do so, but DON'T feed his post! Let's not have a war here. Thanks! Scott Playing moderator in hopes of averting conflict. Hope I don't get hit by an angry rock #47. :-) From heidit at netbox.com Fri Jun 15 02:28:17 2001 From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 02:28:17 -0000 Subject: [LIST ELF - ADMIN] re: the current HARRY/CHO thread Message-ID: <9gbrs1+o0vv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20862 hi - just wanted to remind all of you on HP4GU that we have to abide by Yahoogroups' Terms of Service around here. That means that posts which violate the ToS are not allowed. You can find the ToS at http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Among the ToS guidelines are: >>You agree to not use the Service to: >>upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any >>Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, >>tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of >>another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise >>objectionable. Have a nice diurnal anomaly! heidi, hp4gu list elf From lrcjestes at earthlink.net Fri Jun 15 03:00:41 2001 From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (lrcjestes at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:00:41 -0000 Subject: quiz In-Reply-To: <001201c0f538$cbc2f860$5ad7fea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <9gbtop+10fid@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20864 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "mlmnb" wrote: > Did I miss the quiz mentioned today about whose personality is most like > your own? > Anyone know where I can find it? Thanks! > Dane, Ravenclaw > Here's the link to the character quiz...any results you feel like sharing should be done on the OT-Chatter list. http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php3?client=hpcharacter carole PS..you might edit your reply in order to not include the whole digest in your post...just a helpful hint... :-) From JenniferABacker at cs.com Fri Jun 15 03:13:46 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:13:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] DO NOT REPLY! (was Re: Harry/Cho is wrong) Message-ID: <79.16306e7a.285ad76a@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20865 In a message dated 6/14/01 9:47:40 PM Central Daylight Time, owl_of_hedwig at yahoo.com writes: << You're all just afraid of admiting to yourself that whites are the superior race. Blacks are black, Chinks are yellow, and whites are pure. It's simple really. And faggots?The only reason they screw each other is because they can't make it with a woman. Simple. >> Ok I'm a pure "white" and I'M STILL offended by that. It's very rude!! My cousin is black and I love him dearly. I've never seen anyone look at him differently because he's black. No one cares and I don't see why you do! I hate people who put people in groups and then critize someone because they're in that group. I may love werewolves <3 <3 but a big black dog will <3 <3 always have my heart <3 <3 Please join my weekly *NSYNC zine: Now & Forever Get cash the fun and easy way: RefRewards If you join these zines please put JenniferABacker referred ya! It'd mean a LOT:) Great variety zine: Animosity Learn about a great new singer: Official Gina Marie Zine Daily *NSYNC news & pics; short loading: 'nsync fantasy mad cow season - freebies behind the music - graphics From mdartagnan at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 03:34:46 2001 From: mdartagnan at yahoo.com (mdartagnan at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:34:46 -0000 Subject: Please read! Message-ID: <9gbvom+ip7d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20867 Hi there, I know it's quite a temptation to answer to the troll(s) that have invaded our group. As I write this, I'm already coming with a long string of arguments against them. But that would be playing their game. Guys and girls, please don't descend to the troll's level. Don't reply to them. You don't *need*, as they do, to attract attention in such way. Let our Moderation Team decide what to do. On the meantime, don't reply anymore of those messages, no matter how angry you feel. Can we go back to Harry, please? Take care, Marijose Remember: A flame extinguishes in the lack of oxygen. From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu Fri Jun 15 03:35:07 2001 From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:35:07 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: PLEASE DON'T REPLY !!! Message-ID: <9gbvpb+mitv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20868 We are attempting to stamp out the inflammatory posts that were posted by a *former* member. PLEASE DON'T REPLY TO THEM ON-LIST. This just reproduces his words and adds fuel to the flames. The Moderators From JenniferABacker at cs.com Fri Jun 15 04:06:05 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:06:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] DO NOT REPLY! (was Re: Harry/Cho is wrong) Message-ID: <104.4bc89eb.285ae3ad@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20869 Sorry I sent that to everyone. I didn't mean to. I only wanted to send it to him. Whose the moderators are here anyway? (Just curious!) I may love werewolves <3 <3 but a big black dog will <3 <3 always have my heart <3 <3 From MorganaH3947 at aol.com Fri Jun 15 04:13:55 2001 From: MorganaH3947 at aol.com (MorganaH3947 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 04:13:55 -0000 Subject: Intro Message-ID: <9gc223+dhle@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20870 Hey all! I just joined the group today and decided to post a short introductory message. I'm a 28 year old U.S. history teacher, who discovered Harry Potter 2 weeks before the fourth book came out and has been obsessed since. I only recently found that there was a whole world of other adults just as obsessed as me! A little backround information: I'm from Long Island, New York, have been happily married for two years, and am expecting my first child, Little Julia Marie Hester. I'm working on actually getting my husband to read Harry Potter. I'm getting closer! I hope to be able to keep up with the discussions. It should be easier now that summer vacation has begun and I no longer have to work. ^_^ --Morgan From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 04:19:04 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DO NOT REPLY! (was Re: Harry/Cho is wrong) In-Reply-To: <104.4bc89eb.285ae3ad@cs.com> Message-ID: <20010615041904.80221.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20871 --- JenniferABacker at cs.com wrote: > Sorry I sent that to everyone. I didn't mean to. I > only wanted to send it to > him. Whose the moderators are here anyway? (Just > curious!) > > I may love werewolves <3 <3 > > > > but a big black dog will <3 <3 > > > > always have my HREF="mailto:JenniferABacker at cs.com?subject=Hey > werewolf girl">heart <3 <3 > That's okay, I think people will forgive you. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 05:30:52 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 05:30:52 -0000 Subject: Intro In-Reply-To: <9gc223+dhle@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gc6ic+cet4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20872 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MorganaH3947 at a... wrote: > Hey all! > > I just joined the group today and decided to post a short > introductory message. > > I'm a 28 year old U.S. history teacher, who discovered Harry Potter 2 > weeks before the fourth book came out and has been obsessed since. I > only recently found that there was a whole world of other adults just > as obsessed as me! > > A little backround information: I'm from Long Island, New York, have > been happily married for two years, and am expecting my first child, > Little Julia Marie Hester. I'm working on actually getting my husband > to read Harry Potter. I'm getting closer! > > I hope to be able to keep up with the discussions. It should be > easier now that summer vacation has begun and I no longer have to > work. ^_^ > > --Morgan Morgan-Welcome, and thanks for your refreshing post of introduction! Harry Potter books are some of the best things that have ever happened to me-and I'm sure many in here will agree on how these books have impacted them on a personal level! Natasha aka "N"/"RodeoDangerQueen"/"Twilight Swirl" From SHENmagic at aol.com Fri Jun 15 06:23:29 2001 From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 06:23:29 -0000 Subject: Intro In-Reply-To: <9gc223+dhle@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gc9l1+ofh2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20873 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MorganaH3947 at a... wrote: > I just joined the group today and decided to post a short > introductory message. Welcome Morgan! I'm an alumni of Commack, Long Island (home to Rosie O'Donnell) living in San Diego California--where midnight comes later than most of the rest of the world if one is waiting on line to get a JKR book. Aylihael :::mathematically and now chronologically challenged...: From andromache815 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 06:55:50 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:55:50 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP publishing date, names, ships, quiz References: <9g9m0n+uaob@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20874 M: Now, I am waiting impatiently for OoP (when does it come out? I heard Nov. 12th, but that it was pushed back). Yep. That's what I heard, too. I hear it's supposed to be out in January, but I have also heard it was going to come out in March. So I have no clue. In either case, it's a terribly long wait. It'll probably be worth it, though. rowanbrookt: Has anyone named a child after HP characters? I would say that IMO that is fanatical I have no children, but I see nothing wrong with parents naming their children after characters that they particularly love from any series or story. To me, names mean more if they mean something to the individual. In other words, it's touching to me, rather than obsessive. Besides, if we weren't obsessed with HP, we wouldn't be here. Ships: As I've said before, I feel that Harry/Hermione would work out better than Ron/Hermione. Ron and Hermione fight too much for it to work out. They're both too stubborn and strong-willed for it to be plausible. Harry has shown the capability of being able to see past his own viewpoint, and that would suit Hermione better. However, I see no evidence for Harry liking her. My boyfriend and I are best friends. I wouldn't say we were best friends before we officially became a couple, but we were friends first. He and I have been together for four years and seven months. We've had our differences, but ours is the kind of teasing relationship the Weasleys have. Sure, we disagree, but it's not a constant thing, as I see with R/H. I guess my boyfriend and I are more communicative than R/H. We agree on many major issues, and he's my best friend. And then, there's the amount of work it takes to have a healthy relationship. I don't think the three of them are ready for it. Carol mentioned that passion born of love does exist, and I have to give her a high five for that one. I agree wholeheartedly with the statements by Penny and Carol, and just had to get my rambly input in. Carol: although when we all did the quiz about which character we were most like, my list was headed by Bill Weaseley Hmmm. I like Bill and Charlie. What quiz? Is it the selectsmart one? I got Hermione as the one I most identify with. Vicky From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 15 07:44:35 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:44:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: H killing V, Sirius thoughts (was Has anyone thought ... In-Reply-To: <45.7c47698.285a9780@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c0f56f$0605eb00$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 20875 > I don't think Sirius has a wand at all. I would assume that his wand would have been taken >away from him (probably destroyed) when he went to Azkaban. I wonder if he'll get a new one. Does anyone think that might be important? >Devika :) I agree his original wand would have been taken away/destroyed at that point unless he'd managed to secrete it somehow, and there is no reason why he would have thought of doing that (or unless one of the hit wizards on the scene nabbed it as a trophy of war, perhaps). However, Mr Ollivander reminds me of the Saville Row tailors in a play I saw some years ago called An Englishman Abroad, in which Guy Burgess, living in Russia after his defection, sends back orders for some proper shirts, suits and ties via an American actress he meets. All the tailors, shirtmakers and bootmakers have his measurements on file, none of them bat an eyelid about supplying him, irrespective of what he's done, and all would die rather than betray a customer's confidence. So he might somehow be able to get a new wand - obviously the Wizards didn't confiscate his assets when he went to Azkaban (well, I can't see the Gringotts goblins letting anyone do anything like that) so he can certainly pay for one - it'd be the fitting that would be the problem. Susan From tabouli at unite.com.au Fri Jun 15 08:31:30 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:31:30 +1000 Subject: Hybrid vigour and Cindersnape Message-ID: <003401c0f575$af4223e0$f191aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 20876 In all honesty, I can't see Cho and Harry getting together (more likely that Harry sadly concludes it's not to be in the next book or two), but... Alex (in her deep wisdom) noted that: >Why wouldn't anything good come out of it? Many successful marriages are mixed and produce lovely children. Yeah!! (enthuses the half-Chinese, half-"white" Tabouli, who looks Southern European). Hybrid vigour, that's the stuff. All but one of the weddings of my friends I've been to have been mixed race (one Caucasian, one Asian, including Indian, Chinese, Vietnamese). I've read alarming accounts of mixed race couples being spat on and denounced on the street by both races in parts of the US: eek! Is this common, or just sensationalisation of things rare and localised? No doubt Richard (who presumably used Hedwig in his username because she's a Snowy Owl, not one of these suspect Tawny specimens who might be Touched With The Tar Brush) find the whole concept shockin'. Miscegenation, tsk tsk. Shouldn't be allowed. And as for Angelina going to the ball with Fred...! Has she no shame?? Being *seen* with one of those low-life *white* people... :D > Actually, this is probably reverse racism, but mixed-race people seem usually more beautiful... (Tabouli beams and looks hopefully at the mirror for signs of extreme beauty, slumps, then recalls her screeds on the perils of beauty and sighs in relief). > By refering to this as wrong, it just means that the chinqs are an > inferrior race thats all. It's nothing bad, just that they should > accept their place in life as being below everyone else. > And while we're on the subject of inferiority, faggots should all be > below too. God knows that they were created to be killed. > If anyone feels that my views are too extreme, then so be it. !! Dear, dear, dear. I haven't quite decided whether you're serious or not, but I find your comments not too extreme, but too laughable. I have to wonder how old you are, where you live and what your background is to sprout such stuff, whether as a joke in poor taste, a sneer at "political correctness", or as an attempt to be inflammatory. As for the reference to God, are you a Christian as well? My, my, how do you reconcile dem white supremacist views with Jesus' (whom I hate to tell you sprang from the Middle East and therefore wasn't a blond whitewashed Aryan) teaching on forgiveness, hanging out with a prostitute and advocating friendship between Jews and Samaritans?? I seriously doubt whether He'd be up for a wholesale slaughter of homosexuals, do you? Then again, if you seriously believe the above, who knows... (this is getting waay OT... sorry everyone, I'll get onto that OT list for this sort of stuff in future) Hey, while we're on the subject of homosexuality, I agree with those who say that JKR isn't going to explore the issue in HP. I suspect that the diehard gay-inclusivity fans will have to stick with symbolism until she goes on after HP to write books intended for an older audience, when I imagine she'll slip in a gay character or two without fanfare (a la girls on the Quidditch team). This seems to be her style. Though I do like the Harry coming out of the closet metaphor... very cute. The squibs as gay characters idea is clever too. >Lilith, who finds slash between Snape/Dumbledore slightly amusing. Now that would explain why Snape loathes Harry more and more: he's jealous of all the attention Harry gets from Dumbledore! Maybe Severus needs a makeover to get Dumbledore to notice him... > I can't help wondering if Snape is ever going to get similar treatment... after all, Sirius looked pretty awful in PoA when he had bad hair and was pale and haggard, but from his pre-Azkaban photos and GoF we know he's actually quite an attractive guy. Hmmm... Maybe Snape's real issue is that he has a bad body image. Let's look at him closely. Thin? Hooked nose? Sallow skin? Greasy black hair? None of these are irredeemable flaws. Hey, given the right shampoo, a touch of Sleekezy, a better diet (get Dobby onto the task) and a healthy outdoor lifestyle away from the cauldron to improve the complexion (perhaps Hagrid could take Snape for constitutional hikes in the Forbidden Forest?), he could be lean and handsome, with silky raven locks framing dashingly hawklike features. Then, blossoming in the newfound admiration of his students and colleagues, he would become a warm, fatherly teacher to Harry, forgive Sirius, and win the heart of Dumbledore, who'd abandon his ambiguous relationship with Fawkes and wed Snape in a glamorous occasion in the Great Hall, at which the happy guests would order Phoenix casserole... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sprsun at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 09:09:57 2001 From: sprsun at yahoo.com (Cai Hui) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:09:57 +0800 Subject: Newbie + translation questions Message-ID: <006b01c0f57a$f49cb5e0$f5a55dcb@zjj> No: HPFGUIDX 20877 Hi, I've just subscribed to the list for a couple of days. And I think I should do a bit of introduction before asking questions. I'm a 25 year old Chinese fan of the Harry Potter who lives in Beijing. I bought the Chinese translations last November when the first three books came out. And got addicted instantly. Later I asked a friend of mine to buy the English versions when she's in US. Unfortunately she didn't get PoA, which is just my favourite one (because I have this huge crush on Lupin)! Now I have to wait for another friend to go to the States. :( Anyway, I could spot some mistakes in the Chinese translations even without reading the English version, but I still have a few questions related with translation. I hope someone is kindly enough to answer them! 1. Has anyone ever addressed Lupin by his first name? In the Chinese translation I have everyone is calling him Lupin and that just doesn't look right. Surely Dumbledore would at least call him Remus? How about Snape? Lupin always calls him Severus! 2. At the end of PoA, after Sirius has escaped with Buckbeak, Snape is furious. In my Chinese translation, Fudge suggested that Sirius escaped by *transfiguration,* and Snape answered no one could transfigure in the castle. This is really weird because we've seen both McGonagall and Sirius transform in the castle! Is it an inconsistency or a translation mistake? (I'm inclined to believe the latter.) 3. When Harry tells Lupin that the thing he fears most is not Voldemort but the dementors, does Lupin say "I'm impressed" (my guess)? My translation goes something like "I remember" and that doesn't make sense to me! 4. Does Prof. Trelawney know that Lupin's a werewolf? That conversation she has with McDonagall in the Xmas dinner table reads like she do From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 09:30:52 2001 From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (Vicki Granger) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:30:52 -0000 Subject: Newbie + translation questions In-Reply-To: <006b01c0f57a$f49cb5e0$f5a55dcb@zjj> Message-ID: <9gckkc+k10h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20878 2. At the end of PoA, after Sirius has escaped with Buckbeak, Snape is furious. In my Chinese translation, Fudge suggested that Sirius escaped by *transfiguration,* and Snape answered no one could transfigure in the castle. This is really weird because we've seen both McGonagall and Sirius transform in the castle! Is it an inconsistency or a translation mistake? (I'm inclined to believe the latter.) ~I think it's meant to be 'Apparate' (couldn't be bothered to look it up ;-) 3. When Harry tells Lupin that the thing he fears most is not Voldemort but the dementors, does Lupin say "I'm impressed" (my guess)? My translation goes something like "I remember" and that doesn't make sense to me! ~It's "I'm impressed," Then something about how it's wise to fear fear itself. 4. Does Prof. Trelawney know that Lupin's a werewolf? That conversation she has with McDonagall in the Xmas dinner table reads like she do ~Either she knows (Snape knew...) beacause of Dumbledore saying so, but maybe he only told the 'high up' teachers. I think her Inner Eye tells her something is up, but no specifics... Hope that helps! :-) ~*Vicki*~ From simon at hp.inbox.as Fri Jun 15 09:31:40 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:31:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Newbie + translation questions In-Reply-To: <006b01c0f57a$f49cb5e0$f5a55dcb@zjj> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20879 Cai Hui: <<>> Welcome. C: <<<1. Has anyone ever addressed Lupin by his first name? In the Chinese translation I have everyone is calling him Lupin and that just doesn't look right. Surely Dumbledore would at least call him Remus? How about Snape? Lupin always calls him Severus!>>> Sirius uses his first name in Ch 18: "Hurry up, Remus..." Peter uses his first name in Ch 19. Dumbledore uses it in Ch 22, when Remus is about to leave. C: <<<2. At the end of PoA, after Sirius has escaped with Buckbeak, Snape is furious. In my Chinese translation, Fudge suggested that Sirius escaped by *transfiguration,* and Snape answered no one could transfigure in the castle. This is really weird because we've seen both McGonagall and Sirius transform in the castle! Is it an inconsistency or a translation mistake? (I'm inclined to believe the latter.)>>> It should be that you cannot Apparate or Disapparate in the castle. C: <<<3. When Harry tells Lupin that the thing he fears most is not Voldemort but the dementors, does Lupin say "I'm impressed" (my guess)? My translation goes something like "I remember" and that doesn't make sense to me!>>> In the UK versions (Ch 11) it is '... I'm impressed.... That suggests that what you fear most of all is - fear.' C: <<<4. Does Prof. Trelawney know that Lupin's a werewolf? That conversation she has with McDonagall in the Xmas dinner table reads like she do>>> Lupin says at some stage that all the staff know. Quote (Ch 17) 'But they already know [about him being a werewolf],' said Lupin. 'At least, the staff do.' So it is a guess as to whether or not this also extends to Trelawney, but I would guess it does. Pigwidgeon -- "... a minute owl, small enough to fit into the palm of his hand, whizzing excitedly around the room like a loose firework." "Oh, look at the weeny owl! Isn't he cute?" Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire by Jo Rowling --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From catlady at wicca.net Fri Jun 15 09:32:28 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 02:32:28 -0700 Subject: Gabrielle - HG's race - Part-Veela - Head boy - Prefect - Newbie Message-ID: <3B29D62C.B04700F3@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20880 Craig wrote: > I don't think that Fleur's younger sister was readily at hand. > Gabrielle was age eight which would have made her a bit young > for Beauxbatons; Maybe Gabrielle came with her mother to watch Fleur in the Third Task. I think JKR mentioned Harry glimpsing Fleur talking with Mrs. Delacour, but no description of Mrs. Delacour, so no clue as to whether she is half-Veela. Amy Z wrote: > What happened in GF to make you change your mind? > I don't recall any clues about Hermione's race, except that she blushes Oh, I don't think there was anything in the book. It was something JKR said in an interview, mentioning some actress or something whom Hermione looks like. Tabouli wrote: > As for Malfoy being part-Veela, this would fit with his colouring, > but not with his loud proclamations about pure blood, which > seem quite cocky and genuine and not the protesting-too-much > of someone rejecting their own impurity. Maybe being part-Magical Being is still considered Pure Magic Blood. Oh, Heidi said that, too. > I too have long mused that Cho may have had a rocky road > to Hogwarts. I've never noticed embracing a child who is > markedly different from the Chinese ideal (accomplished, > impressive in the "child as family mascot" competition, > conservative in dress and social behaviour, respectful of > parents, academically brilliant, employed in high-status field > with financial security, married to good catch by mid to late twenties, etc.) I like to believe that Cho does/is all that (except not yet employed or married) and that her parents were persuaded that education in Magic, accompanied by summer school in science and engineering subjects, would be very helpful in landing a prestigious and well-paid Muggle career. That is, the big conflict will come when she finishes Hogwarts and tells them that she's going to be a pro Quidditch player (or some other career in the wizarding world) and NOT going to a Muggle university. It might have come earlier, if Cedric had lived, if Cho and Cedric were, as I believe, serious about each other, and she asked their permission to get engaged to this weirdo with no prospects. Does it being a white weirdo make it worse? Steve Vander Ark wrote: > At that age, I started learning to play guitar because girls love > guitar music. It was all a ploy. And it worked more often than not :) I keep telling Ron to do that, but he doesn't listen to me! Actually, I think even *harmonica* would help Ron. And why doesn't he get Bill to teach him to dress, and/or lend him clothes? Luce wrote: > Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if Draco were made Prefect? I believe there are six prefects per House: one boy and one girl from each of 5th, 6th, and 7th year, and I feel certain that Draco and Pansy will be the Slytherin prefects of their year. Cai Hui wrote: > I have this huge crush on Lupin)! That shows that you have good taste. > Has anyone ever addressed Lupin by his first name? I agree that it doesn't sound right that everyone else is called by first name except dear Remus, but JKR concealed his first name from us until we found out that he was a werewolf, because it is a clue. > In my Chinese translation, Fudge suggested that Sirius escaped by > *transfiguration,* and Snape answered no one could transfigure in the castle. Translation error! Fudge suggested that Sirius had escaped by Apparating way (actually, they say Disapparate for leaving and Apparate for arriving, but maybe only in English) and "You can't Apparate at Hogwarts" is one of the things that Hermione always says. Umm, should I explain that Apparate is not a real English word, but means the same as teleport except by magic? > not Voldemort but the dementors, does Lupin say "I'm impressed Yes. Once upon a time, there was some newspaper article about the Chinese translation of Harry Potter, that said that some of the European folklore would be replaced by Chinese folklore. Did you notice any examples of that? /\ /\ + + Mews and views >> = << from Rita Prince Winston ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 09:48:54 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:48:54 -0000 Subject: Where did the Weasley kids go to school before Hogwarts? Message-ID: <9gclm6+rsu4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20881 Is there any mention of where they went before, or does anyone have a theory about it. They definetly can't have gone to a muggle school because they are way to wizardy and they haven't had contact with a lot of muggle things. From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 09:50:23 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:50:23 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Crouch jr make 1 of HP's possesssions a portkey? Message-ID: <9gclov+d61o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20882 If he had, he wouldn't have to worry about the whole triwizard thing. From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 09:51:52 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:51:52 -0000 Subject: How did Hermione go to Diagon Alley the first time? Message-ID: <9gclro+ljke@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20883 She has muggle parents so she wouldn't have known where it was and might not have even been able to see it. From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 09:54:50 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:54:50 -0000 Subject: If I were invited to HWarts when would my letter arrive? Message-ID: <9gcm1a+pbbk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20884 Would it have come on my 11th birthday (the 16th of October) and then I would wait until September the next year before I went to Hogwarts. Or would the letter arrive in the summer just before September. Please tell me what you think, this one kept me up last night From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Jun 15 10:05:08 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:05:08 -0000 Subject: Too many, let's simply say "Varia" Message-ID: <9gcmkk+e0dg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20885 1) hallo and thanks to all the newcomers who have outed themselves as such, so I don't feel quite so stupid because of repeating things that supposedly have already been said over and over again. 2) Sirius' wand: There is a bit of a logical problem with this: Remember that, when Wormtail escapes, he has to grab Ron's wand to transform himself back into a human? So, does one need a wand to transform or is it necessary for some and for others not? Because it is said more than once that Pettigrew was the least talented of the Marauders' group, so maybe he needed a wand to help him transform, and Sirius, James and McGonagall don't. Which brings me to 3): Do you agree that, the more your magical skills are advanced, the less you need to talk when doing magic? When Dumbledore does magic, he nearly never has to actually say the words and it's the same for most of the grown-up wizards. 4) Tom Riddle/Voldemort: I suppose we all can agree that Tom Riddle killed his father and his father's parents with the Avada Kedavra Curse, as at the beginning of GoF it is clearly stated the police had to release Frank Bryce, as the three Riddles had "neither been shot, nor strangled nor poisoned nor strangled to death, and in fact seemed to enjoy excellent health, apart from the fact that they were dead". They were completely unmarked and just had that look of terror on their faces. (When Moody demostrates the curse on the spiders, the fact of their being unmarked is particularly stressed, same goes for Cedric Diggory). So far, so good. BUT: Combining the time lines of CoS and GoF, we know that fifty years ago 1) Tom Riddle opened the Chamber and 2) killed his father+ family. BIG question: If Riddle had been brought up in a Muggle orphanage until the age of 11, how on earth was he able to perform the Avada Kedavra Curse at 13??? Moody himself says to his 4th- years: "You could all point your wands at me and pronounce the words and I doubt I would get as much as a nosebleed". Voldemort is the legitimate heir of Slytherin, I'll give you that, but was he really so powerful at the age of 13 to be able to do the curse? I'm very curious to read your thoughts. 5) In the light of the deplorable message about Cho and Harry, I just wonder how anybody with an even slightly racistic attitude can like any of the HP books: It starts in CoS and gets extremely outspoken in GoF: There is an anti-racist, anti-discrimination, I'd even say anti- nazi message that hopefully, as it's so well conferred to the reader, will have more effects than many more obvious pedagogic efforts. I don't know whether this has already been discussed, it might also be my combined austro-jewish sensibility that made me notice: Has anybody already underlined the strong ressemblance between the Death Eaters' "fun" with Muggles at the Quidditch World Cup and anti- jewish pogromes? Did you notice that the trials Harry witnesses after falling into the pensieve, bear a strong ressemblance with the Nurenberg processes? This aspect of JKR's writing struck me very much. 6) About book 5: IMO, there are clues that JKR herself gives us in PoA and in GoF: In PoA, Dumbledore says to Harry that saving the life of another wizard creates a very strong bond between saver and saved. And that Voldemort would not like to have a devoted servant- Wormtail- who's got that kind of debt with Harry. To me, this seems a clue for a big conflict that might arise in OoP- how long will Wormtail remain faithful to the Dark Lord and to which lengths will he go against Harry? Second clue: When, at the end of GoF, Harry has to tell Dumbledore all over again, he of course mentions that Wormtail took his blood. And for just a brief moment, he thinks "to see a look of triumph in Dumbledore's eyes" but then convinces himself he was wrong. I can#t imagine what that means, but am sure it is a clue for OoP. Well, I think that'll be all for today, please tell me what you think about it. Susanna From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Jun 15 10:09:59 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:09:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How did Hermione go to Diagon Alley the first time? In-Reply-To: <9gclro+ljke@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010615100959.70168.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20886 I suppose they know at Hogwarts that such a situation might arise and send Muggle-born pupils instructions about how to get there or leave word at the Leaky Cauldron --- rowanbrookt at yahoo.com ha scritto:
She has muggle parents so she wouldn't have known where it was and
might not have even been able to see it.
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com Fri Jun 15 10:27:35 2001 From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle at bigpond.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:27:35 -0000 Subject: Gilderoy (was RE Lilly a Lesbian?) In-Reply-To: <9g9j67+uumb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gcnun+kirl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20887 > Harry living in a closet...INTERESTING POINT, NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT > ONE...If I were to suspect anyone of being gay in the Canon, it would > be Gilderoy Lockhart, but perhaps that is just superficial > stereotyping (his flamboyant personality amongst other things), and I > don't think JKR is making an issue of homosexuality in these works, > whether she has pro or con sentiments about gay lifestyles. I just > don't think it is a big issue with her at this time. > > N ;) Gilderoy Gay? Sorry, I don't buy it - I think the only person Gilderoy would be interested in having sex with is Gilderoy. Rowena From andromache815 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 10:41:07 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:41:07 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Snape thoughts References: <45.7c47698.285a9780@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20888 Devika: As for Sirius, I suppose the impressions we all have of him are purely a matter of opinion, since there is no evidence in canon to support his maturity or immaturity before Azkaban. I personally think that Sirius has many good qualities that must have been present before he was arrested, but that's just my opinion. And if I'm willing to overlook Sirius's temper, I can overlook Snape's vindictiveness and whatever faults Lupin may have as well. I really do like all three of them almost equally, strange though that may be. Sorry for ranting; I just felt like I had to say something about that :) I didn't take it as a rant. You're just defending Sirius, which is perfectly natural. I'm sorry. It's just, I tend to liken him to Ron, and for the record, I don't much like Ron, either, so...it's somewhat fair...You're right about no evidence so far of Sirius' maturity or lack thereof in canon. I have no logical reason for not liking him. I mean, he seems cunning and smart, and is kind to Harry, and he seems mature for the most part. Strange that I don't like him. He and Snape are similar in their stubbornness and vindictiveness against one another, for reasons yet unknown. There's gotta be more to it than the werewolf trick. They are both murderous. Snape was willing to hand Sirius off to the dementors, and Sirius wanted to murder Pettigrew. Of course, *I* wanted to murder Pettigrew, but I think a dementor's kiss is worse than death, so Snape's intent was worse than Sirius's. Both are unwilling to let go of their grudges, which still seem to be going strong, for some odd reason. I would even go so far as to conjecture that Sirius and Snape were the real enemies, and that James, Lupin, and Pettigrew backed Sirius up because they were his friends. Despite all these similarities, I favor Snape. Anyone have any guesses as to why? He seems the more evil of the two. Could it be because I identify with his envy of the Marauders, or that I take a similar view with him on the absurdity of hero worship? I'm taking a leaf from Jamieson's book. Lilith: James only did what anyone with a decent brain would have done- (sorry, I don't count him braver than average...) Yay! Another person who agrees with me. :) Lilith: Dumbledore forgave Snape for being a Death Eater, made him a spy and gave him a job at Hogwarts (in a time when I *do* believe that the name Severus Snape wasn't associated with anything positive in the wizarding world)- just imagine what a debt for Snape to pay back! But just how common was the knowledge of Snape's spy status? I got the impression that Snape's trial wasn't widely known. Heck, Fudge saw the dark mark on him, and thought Snape was joking or something. Makes me wonder if Fudge even knew about his former Death Eater status. And I doubt parents would be comfortable with the knowledge of an ex-Death Eater around their children. Lilith: I imagine him being pretty grateful of course, but also, and more importantly- angry with Albus for doing what he did. "Damn you for making me owe you all this, Albus Dumbledore!" Well, this would be true, on the premise that he hates Dumbledore. However, I think he loves him, and I think Dumbledore loves Snape and has a special place in his heart for him. Only he had the nerve to betray Voldie, and that certainly would have gotten Dumbledore's respect. So I must disagree here. Magda: I agree with everything Rebecca says except this part. Snape will rage and rant in his grief, lashing out at everyone around him but especially at Harry Potter who will somehow have had something to do with the tragedy. Everyone will be convinced that old Severus has finally cracked and will worry about him returning to the Dark Side. He will help this speculation by disappearing for a while and driving everyone crazy with fear - not so much for him but for what he might do with the info he has on the Good Guys. Hmmm, the part about him lashing out at everyone is plausible, but not the part about him turning villain again. I highly doubt this. I firmly believe he is on the good side. If he is shown to be a traitor, I won't like him. His courage and underlying principle is what drew me to him. And it doesn't seem logical for him to betray the team that Dumbledore died for. That would corrupt the sacrifice. Magda: Eventually he will come around but after a maturation process that will be long and tortuous. What maturation process? He's petty and malicious, but he's on the right side. Vicky From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 11:00:11 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 04:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Snape thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010615110011.95858.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20889 > Magda: Eventually he will come around but after a maturation > process that will be long and tortuous. > > What maturation process? He's petty and malicious, but he's on the > right side. > > Vicky I didn't say he WOULD go over to the Dark Side; I said everyone would THINK that he had because of the depth of his emotional upheaval. Actually, I like Rebecca's suggestion that he would suffer in silence and Harry would misinterpret and hate him for it. But only if Dumbledore dies in a later book than Book 5 because I don't think Snape is mature enough (literally, to me he's an adolescent in an adult's body) to fake it that thoroughly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 11:08:16 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:08:16 +0200 Subject: SHIPPING of Love and War References: <000001c0f56f$0605eb00$0101010a@w98-1> Message-ID: <002d01c0f58b$7a930a90$c871023e@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 20890 Hmm. A number of shipping posts have recently pointed out that a lot of bickering may be great for a torrid romance but not for life-long companionship. For the record, I agree. (Sue and I were close friends for a couple of years--and sympathetically watched each other fall in love with several other people--before we fell in love. We now have 8 years' romance, 5 years' wedlock, and two children behind us, but were still best friends, and we still can't figure out why some couples can't get through breakfast without a spat.) HOWEVER: In reading through JKR's interviews and biographical sketches, I get the impression that Jo's romances have tended to be fairly *intense.* (I'm not just thinking of her ex-husband--in an interview with Evan Solomon she told a great story about inventing Quidditch after walking out on a boyfriend.) If we grant that Hermione is JKR's own epiphany in the books, wouldn't it follow that Hermione's love stories would tend to follow a similarly stormy pattern? Of course, my current pet theory is that Hermione will fall in love (with Ron) in OoP, out of love in HP6--and in love with Harry in HP7--pushing Ron over the edge into fury, revenge and betrayal. [But never fear, folks: At the last moment, a dying Wormtail will talk Ron back into his senses. Ron will overcome several rooms full of Death Eaters, who have mauled Harry and are preparing to torture Hermione. Having freed Harry to duel with Voldy, he'll limp towards a weeping Hermione, only to take a fatal stab in the back from Draco Malfoy, who wasn't quite dead after all. He'll expire at Hermione's feet, clutching her dear-Ron letter to his breast. Harry, who has sent Voldy to his destiny but taken a mortal wound of his own, will finish off Draco, stagger over to Ron and Hermione and succumb. Then the roof falls in, banging Hermione on the head, and leaving her with a nasty scar. THE END] Baaa-hoo-hoo--aaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who just finished re-reading The Three Muskateers.) PS See http://www.infoculture.cbc.ca/archives/bookswr/bookswr_07182000_potterinterv iew.phtml for the Quidditch story. _______________________ "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high." From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 11:40:41 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 04:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP publishing date, names, ships, quiz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010615114041.42738.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20891 Hmmm. I like Bill and Charlie. What quiz? Is it the selectsmart one? I got Hermione as the one I most identify with. Vicky I'm probably the most like Hermione...with a bit of Ginny in there too. I feel sorry for anybody who would say they were most like Malfoy. LOL. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vderark at bccs.org Fri Jun 15 12:32:02 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:32:02 -0000 Subject: Too many, let's simply say "Varia" In-Reply-To: <9gcmkk+e0dg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gcv82+dbqv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20892 > Cedric Diggory). So far, so good. BUT: Combining the time lines of > CoS and GoF, we know that fifty years ago 1) Tom Riddle opened the > Chamber and 2) killed his father+ family. BIG question: If Riddle had > been brought up in a Muggle orphanage until the age of 11, how on > earth was he able to perform the Avada Kedavra Curse at 13??? Tom Riddle was born in 1927. He started Hogwarts in 1938. He set about trying to find the Chamber of Secrets but didn't discover how to open it until his fifth year, which is 1942-3. Tom was 16 years old at that time. In the summer of 1944, between Tom's sixth and seventh years, he traveled to Little Hangleton and murdered his father and grandparents. So yes, Tom was a clever kid, but he wasn't casting the Killing Curse at 13. He was 17 years old and had been dabbling in the Dark Arts for years. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com Fri Jun 15 12:43:40 2001 From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle at bigpond.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:43:40 -0000 Subject: visualisation of characters Message-ID: <9gcvts+8mq4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20893 Hi I've just managed to catch up on the last few days posts and would like to share my opinion on the ethnic/race comments of the last week or so. Some, more than others, have completely confounded me (the infamous Richard, but others have also lost me in their discussions) because I have an inability to visualise what characters look like (for any author). I could not say what colour or race a character may be (they could be green and purple for all I know). This is even if an author takes two pages to describe a person's features. The strongest physical image that I can get from the characters is that Harry has a scar and wears glasses, Ron has red hair, Draco is pale etc. I also don't use names as method of working out a characters' physical description because names can be misleading. (eg I have a French surname but I am not french, I have friends with the surname of Lee, some are Chinese some are not.) The only time I am able to link a mental image of the characters to my 'non-physical' image is when I see pictures of the characters. So as far as my visual imagination is concerned Dumbledore looks like Richard Harris, Snape looks like Alan Rickman (in an ideal world *sigh*), Hermonie looks like the actress playing Hermonie. (you get the picture) So my point (there is one) is that I cannot understand why there has been so much debate recently on this point. Does it really matter ? My confusion is, how do you all figure out what colour a character is, and once you have does it make any difference? Rowena who may be living in an idealised world (but why shouldn't I?) and who is sorry in advance is this creates a war of words (and if this is OT). From bohners at pobox.com Fri Jun 15 12:45:57 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:45:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Snape thoughts References: <20010615110011.95858.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <07b201c0f599$72343780$638f23cf@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 20894 > I didn't say he WOULD go over to the Dark Side; I said everyone would > THINK that he had because of the depth of his emotional upheaval. > > Actually, I like Rebecca's suggestion that he would suffer in silence > and Harry would misinterpret and hate him for it. But only if > Dumbledore dies in a later book than Book 5 because I don't think > Snape is mature enough (literally, to me he's an adolescent in an > adult's body) to fake it that thoroughly. Well, this is all in the reading, but I personally think a good deal of the "immaturity" we see from Snape in canon is an act. Not to say that he doesn't have bitter, vindictive, nasty feelings towards people, but rather that he deliberately gives his nastier feelings free rein, and restrains any impulses toward decency and kindness, for reasons only he and Dumbledore fully appreciate (i.e. "deep cover"). I don't think Snape is like a child throwing a tantrum, unable to control his emotions; if anything, I suspect his "default mode" is more calculating and cold-blooded. He *may* have totally lost it at the end of PoA (or not, only time will tell how much was genuine fury and how much was exaggerated for effect) but I'd say that was an exception. All of which is to say that I think Snape could, right now, with no additional "growing up" needed, make it appear as though he were indifferent to Dumbledore's death even though he was going crazy inside. I don't think any of us have an idea (yet) what Snape *really* feels about anything. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Jun 15 12:49:19 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:49:19 -0000 Subject: The Dog on the Lam (filk) Message-ID: <9gd08f+v7mm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20895 The Dog's on the Lamb (from PoA) (To the tune of The Farmer in the Dell) Dedicated to Pippin The dog's on the lam, The dog's on the lam Heigh-ho the derry-O The dog's on the lam And the cat aids the dog The cat aids the dog Heigh-ho the kneazle-O The cat aids the dog And the rat flees the cat The rat flees the cat Heigh-hay to Scabber-ay The rat flees the cat And the rat is the Worm The rat is the Worm Heigh-hail hi Horntail The rat is the Worm And the Worm betrayed Prongs The Worm betrayed Prongs Heigh-hay the Snitch today The Worm betrayed Prongs And Prongs saves Harry Prongs saves Harry Heigh-ho et expecto Prongs saves Harry And Harry drops the cloak Harry drops the cloak Heigh-hee invisibly Harry drops the cloak And the cloak's found by Snape The cloak's found by Snape Hey-here a mean ol' sneer The cloak's found by Snape And Snape hates the Wolf Snape hates the Wolf Hey-hare a vicious glare Snape hates the Wolf And the Wolf's outed by Herm The Wolf's outed by Herm Hay-hize a big surprise The Wolf's outed by Herm And Herm turns the time Herm turns the time Hick-hock it's nine o'clock Herm turns the time And the time's running out The time's running out But thanks, O, to Buckbeak, ho, The dog's back on the lam - CMC From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 13:10:39 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:10:39 -0000 Subject: What are the arguments against the hp books? Message-ID: <9gd1gf+cck8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20896 I know that christians believe that witchcraft is wrong and evil and that is why the churcg are trying to ban the books in school, but are there any other arguments against them. Please post details here. Also does anyone know how I could get hold of a copy of ps in french? From JamiDeise at aol.com Fri Jun 15 13:19:25 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:19:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Snape thoughts Message-ID: <5a.171ea785.285b655d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20897 In a message dated 6/15/2001 8:29:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mgrantwich at yahoo.com writes: << Actually, I like Rebecca's suggestion that he would suffer in silence and Harry would misinterpret and hate him for it. But only if Dumbledore dies in a later book than Book 5 because I don't think Snape is mature enough (literally, to me he's an adolescent in an adult's body) to fake it that thoroughly. >> I agree that Snape is pretty immature, but I think that if Dumbledore dies (which I believe is inevitable), it'll force Snape to grow up. It occurred to me that in three out of the four books published so far, Dumbledore literally saves Harry's life -- in PS/SS, by pulling him off of Quirrell, in CoS through Fawkes, and in GoF by keeping Barty Jr. from killing Harry. And in PoA, Buckbeak and Black would have been toast without Dumbledore. Snape is still nursing a lot of schoolboy grudges, but I think that when Dumbledore dies, he's going to grow up fast and maybe even team up with Harry to overthrow the Dark Lord once and for all. Jami From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Jun 15 13:20:50 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:20:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What are the arguments against the hp books? In-Reply-To: <9gd1gf+cck8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010615132050.1959.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20898 Just look up the Harry potter lexicon, there is a very interesting essay about that topic --- rowanbrookt at yahoo.com ha scritto:
I know that christians believe that witchcraft is wrong and evil and
that is why the churcg are trying to ban the books in school, but are
there any other arguments against them. Please post details here. Also
does anyone know how I could get hold of a copy of ps in french?
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 13:25:09 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:25:09 -0000 Subject: Where can I find some hp slashfic? Message-ID: <9gd2bl+n9e8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20899 Slashfic? From monika at darwin.inka.de Fri Jun 15 13:29:22 2001 From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:29:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' and Ron's temper / Snape thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20900 > -----Original Message----- > From: Vicky Ra [mailto:andromache815 at hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 12:41 PM > I didn't take it as a rant. You're just defending Sirius, which is perfectly > natural. I'm sorry. It's just, I tend to liken him to Ron, and for the > record, I don't much like Ron, either, so...it's somewhat fair...You're > right about no evidence so far of Sirius' maturity or lack thereof in canon. Well, let me add a bit to Devika's rant... We had an interesting discussion a while ago about the similarities between the marauders and H/R/H. I was one of those who didn't think that Sirius and Ron were much alike. I don't want to repeat it all here, but Ron's temper is something entirely different from Sirius' temper (IMHO). Suffice to say that I think that Ron is just still a bit immature and has been overshadowed by his brothers all his life. I *really* hope he will mature soon because I like him, and at least at the moment, I don't mind it too much. Now, Sirius. It seems that he was quite immature at 16 when he told Snape about the Whomping Willow (but he did *not* drag him into the tunnel, Snape's own behavior was just as immature, let's face it), but I am still convinced that Sirius' violent outbursts in PoA have *nothing* to do with overall poor impulse control. (If I bore you, just don't read on.) They look way more like a pretty classic symptom of post-traumatic stress disorder. I'd like to see the individual that would go through what Sirius has gone through and get away without being traumatized. But then, I might be biased because he is my favorite. I just can't see him as a violent git, and the fact that he didn't lose it any more in GoF after recovering for a few months seems to corroborate the theory that his losing control is more likely a symptom of PTSD than a character trait. > He and Snape are similar in their stubbornness and > vindictiveness against one another, for reasons yet unknown. There's gotta > be more to it than the werewolf trick. I have to agree here. It always struck me as not being enough to even think about handing someone over to the dementors. I hope we will learn more about it in future books. > Despite > all these similarities, I favor Snape. Anyone have any guesses as to why? He > seems the more evil of the two. Hm, I don't know if Snape is really evil (I hate him heartily, but I have the impression that he is just a bitter man, why this is, we don't know yet.) But Sirius is definitely *not* evil IMO. And I am convinced that he wouldn't even think of killing Snape even if there hadn't been this stupid handshake ordered by Dumbledore. He still hates Snape, that's true, but he's not interested in killing him, he wouldn't go looking for him. [About Snape] > What maturation process? He's petty and malicious, but he's on the right > side. I think so, too, but Snape is pretty immature IMO. Look at the way he always picks on those who are weaker than him and not likely to defend themselves. The way he treats Harry, and the way he treats Hermione. I don't know if I will ever forgive him the comment he made about Hermione's teeth or threatening Harry with the truth potion. And I doubt he would have threatened Sirius with the dementor's kiss in the Shrieking Shack if Sirius had been his equal, I mean if he would have been able to defend himself with a wand. I always thought that Snape was being sadistic, he could have just put a full body bind on Sirius and bring him in. But no, he first threatened to Avada Kedavra someone who didn't have a wand to duel, and because this still wasn't enough, he threatened his arch-enemy with the dementor's kiss just for the pleasure to see the fear on his face. Not very mature indeed, don't you think so? Monika ------ Book and movie reviews in English and German: http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 13:34:30 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:34:30 -0400 Subject: Broken wands - Hagrid's crime - Sad Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20901 Marianne wrote: >Am I remembering correctly that Azkaban prisoners have their wands broken, >or is that a fanon idea? IIRC, canon never says, but if you get your wand broken when you're expelled from Hogwarts, then it stands to reason it would be broken/confiscated if you went to Azkaban for murder and conspiracy. Actually, if I'm going to demonstrate the precision required in LOON, we don't know that all expelled students get their wands snapped. Hagrid wasn't expelled for skipping exams or something harmless like that. But if underage wizards aren't allowed to do magic, perhaps all expelled students do lose their wands. OK, now I'm thinking (uh-oh, clear the decks!). What, officially, did Hagrid get expelled for? TR seems to be saying that he was literally expelled for opening the Chamber of Secrets (CoS 17), but then why does Binns insist that there's no such thing (CoS 9)? He was around (alive or dead) at the time. He could have been lying to the students when he insisted that the Chamber doesn't exist, but I didn't get the sense that he was lying, but that he was just being his thoroughly unimaginative, anti-superstitious self. Back to Sirius's wand for a moment: Susan H. wrote: >However, Mr Ollivander >reminds me of the Saville Row tailors in a play I saw some years ago called >An Englishman Abroad, in which Guy Burgess, living in Russia after his >defection, sends back orders for some proper shirts, suits and ties via an >American actress he meets. All the tailors, shirtmakers and bootmakers >have >his measurements on file, none of them bat an eyelid about supplying him, >irrespective of what he's done, and all would die rather than betray a >customer's confidence. Maybe--Ollivander does seem to fit that type. But sending Sirius a wand isn't like sending someone new clothes; it's like sending him a bazooka. As for privacy, Ollivander told Dumbledore about Harry's wand immediately. But along those lines, I wouldn't be surprised if Ollivander was in the know about Sirius's innocence. Perhaps Dumbledore has informed him of the situation and given him a heads-up that Sirius would be coming in to his shop for a new wand. (Maybe the fastidious Mr. O would even consent to pay a cave call, boxes of wands in hand, so Sirius didn't have to walk straight into Wizard Central.) Rebecca wrote: >That is why I am convinced that Snape will practically kill himself to >appear detached and even callous toward Dumbledore's death in public, while >suffering like a dog in private. And I am sure that Harry, who only gets >to >see the public Snape, will hate him all the more for it. I can definitely see Snape being detached on the outside, in agony on the inside. But by that point (esp. if Dumbledore lives on through 5 and most of 6) Harry may have a much better insight into Snape; he's already headed that way at the end of GF. So I can also see Harry having a pretty good idea that Snape is miserable but not having any way to express sympathy. Amy Z --------------------------------------------- "I might remind you that =your= pincushion, Thomas, still curls up in fright if anyone approaches it with a pin!" -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Jun 15 13:37:54 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:37:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIPPING of Love and War Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20902 Hi - The Goat wrote: <<>> I've wondered about that too (read the same interview). But, I've also heard that her current fling/boyfriend/what have you is a tall thin man with black hair. That could just be a rumor of course, but she does seem to have a fixation for men with black hair (James, Harry, Voldy, Sirius, Hagrid, Snape ...). Are there *that* many men in the UK with black hair on average? I dunno. I think she's fixated with dark-haired men. :--) <<>> I love this theory! I do believe strongly that the romance triangle could result in some betrayal along the way. Of course, if OoP ends with Ron & Hermione in love, the H/H shippers will have a long sad wait to see how things shake out in the final books. Penny _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Jun 15 13:49:30 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:49:30 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: The truth about H/H? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20903 Hi -- Rebecca wrote: <<>> I also have a largely argument-free (and definitely bicker-free) marriage of nearly 8 years. Well, since I .. ahem.... don't have my HP books exactly *handy,* I'll have to paraphrase, but a couple of scenes came to mind when I read this post about relaxed openness. 1. The scene in PoA where Harry sneaks into Hogsmeade and Hermione starts sputtering about the dangers. He grins at her and says "Are you going to turn me in then?" And she says, "Well, no. No, of course not. But really Harry ...." (something like that). Strikes me that Harry knows how to work around Hermione's sense of propriety, etc. 2. The scene in GoF where Harry hisses, "Yeah but I was supposed to work out the First Task on my own too," and she grins guiltily back at him. I think they could easily settle into a laughing, teasing, bicker-free relationship at some point. <<>> True enough! <<>>> What, you don't like to be wrong? Penny (who thinks FITD or one of its variants is more canonically likely) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 13:38:51 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:38:51 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Grindelwald defeat Message-ID: <9gd35b+bk4b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20904 (I thought of this one on the D.C. beltway the other day. No, I wasn't driving -- but I'm just fascinated with way one's mind wanders in moments of mental solitude.) According to the chocolate frog card, Dumbledore is famous for his defeat of the Dark Lord Grindelwald in 1945. Does anyone else see the WWII connection here? Is it plausible that such a huge war was the result of upheval in the Magical World -- or even that Hitler was controlled by or WAS Grindelwald? Stephanie From gaynor at cheerful.com Fri Jun 15 13:54:12 2001 From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:54:12 -0000 Subject: What are the arguments against the hp books? In-Reply-To: <20010615132050.1959.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gd424+ngsl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20905 Also > does anyone know how I could get hold of a copy of ps > in french? Have you tried www.amazon.fr ? Gaynor From mediaphen at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 13:54:42 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (mediaphen at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:54:42 -0000 Subject: Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie Message-ID: <9gd432+4efe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20906 Hi, everybody! Recently joined, so this would be my first attempt to post a message (although I did successfully upload a nice comic to the files/humour section). Hope it goes through. Short intro: 26-year old, male, Simpsons fanatic and M Sc CE, chosen as Hermione at the SelectSmart quiz (even if I see myself exactly as Lee Jordan, but he wasn't in the quiz) and, apparently, in Ravenclaw. Given JKR's habit of giving her characters names that describes their characteristics, I thought of something that may, or may not, be purely coincidence: Krum is, besides the name of a famous Bulgarian Seeker, a Swedish word meaning "bent" or "crooked". It is used only when referring to limbs, particulary legs: "Krumbent" meaning "with bent legs". Isn't that precisely how Viktor is described when not on a broomstick? Again, a name describing its owner. Now allow me to extend this a little bit further, making it perhaps even more far-fetched: Swedish word krumbent (from which the name Krum may have derived) can be translated into bent legs, crooked legs or crookshanks. Ring a bell? Could it be that Crookshanks the cat in fact is a semi-animagi (as discussed before in the Litter of Werewolves-Animagi-threads) relative of Viktor Krum? And if so, maybe Krum's affection for Hermione is caused, or fueled, by her affection for Crookshanks. That would also explain the fact that Crookshanks is smarter than the average cat. Am I *way* out of line here, or have anybody else out there thought along these lines? I wish to apologise for my poor grammar, vocabulary and spelling, since English obviously isn't my native tounge. Swedish is (surprise?). Also, I'd like to thank everyone on this list for making me work half- time since I joined about a week ago (reading this stuff is much, *much* funnier than actually working). Hope my boss doesn't catch me... But then again, I'd have plenty of more time doing this ;-) Special thanks to Aylihael, who liked my comic picture, told me, and thereby inspiring me to do more. Martin Smith, Gothenburg, Sweden (Wow... Covering four topics (Describing names, Crookshanks' intelligence, Krum/Hermione and Animagi) in my very first message!) From margdean at erols.com Fri Jun 15 13:24:34 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:24:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Grindelwald defeat References: <9gd35b+bk4b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B2A0C92.6525D239@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20907 Stephanie Roark Keener wrote: > According to the chocolate frog card, Dumbledore is famous for his > defeat of the Dark Lord Grindelwald in 1945. Does anyone else see > the WWII connection here? Is it plausible that such a huge war was > the result of upheval in the Magical World -- or even that Hitler was > controlled by or WAS Grindelwald? At the very least, I find it easy to believe that Hitler and Grindelwald were in some way connected (possibly allied?). IIRC it's a documented historical fact that Hitler was "into" the occult (a fact that many writers of fiction have pounced on with glee. Remember "Raiders of the Lost Ark"?). Though I wouldn't go so far as to speculate that WWII was the =result= of an upheaval in the Magical World. More the other way around, if anything, or at the very least the outside causes of the one were the causes of the other. IMHO the two "worlds" are not so separate as either of them likes to believe. :) --Margaret Dean From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 15 14:24:40 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:24:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Grindelwald defeat In-Reply-To: <9gd35b+bk4b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gd5r8+bavh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20908 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" wrote: > (I thought of this one on the D.C. beltway the other day. No, I > wasn't driving -- but I'm just fascinated with way one's mind wanders > in moments of mental solitude.) > > According to the chocolate frog card, Dumbledore is famous for his > defeat of the Dark Lord Grindelwald in 1945. Does anyone else see > the WWII connection here? Is it plausible that such a huge war was > the result of upheval in the Magical World -- or even that Hitler was > controlled by or WAS Grindelwald? > > Stephanie It's possible - but it just doesn't feel like the HP series to bring something like that in. We have no muggle-world events to correspond to Voldemort's reign of terror, though that seems to have been worse. I'm more intrigued that 1945 is around the time Riddle left school. Grindelwald could have been his first attempt to test the water as evil overlord, in which case he was defeated only tactically. Or he could have been Tom's grandfather Marvolo, the then-current Heir of Slytherin. Being a Dark wizard, he was happy to palm his own grandchild off to a muggle orphanage, but, on being defeated he was able to pass on the Sacred Forked Stick (or whatever) to Tom to carry on the struggle. My personal favourite theory is that Defeat The Dark Wizard Grindelwald is a popular contest run annually by the Daily Prophet (who sponsor the Chocolate Frog cards). Dumbledore won in 1945 and it has nothing more to do with anything in the story. David, looking forward to driving home along leafy lanes in Surrey (not Little Whinging) From vderark at bccs.org Fri Jun 15 14:43:59 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:43:59 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Grindelwald defeat In-Reply-To: <9gd5r8+bavh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gd6vf+e7i1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20909 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > > My personal favourite theory is that Defeat The Dark Wizard > Grindelwald is a popular contest run annually by the Daily Prophet > (who sponsor the Chocolate Frog cards). Dumbledore won in 1945 and > it has nothing more to do with anything in the story. I don't usually respond with the little "LOL, loved your post" kind of thing. But I gotta tell you...this is just so funny. I'm working at school today with no one else around but the janitors, and they just glanced up to find out why I was laughing so loudly, all by myself in the office. So...LOL, loved your post :) Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From MorganaH3947 at aol.com Fri Jun 15 14:47:19 2001 From: MorganaH3947 at aol.com (MorganaH3947 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:47:19 -0000 Subject: What are the arguments against the hp books? In-Reply-To: <9gd1gf+cck8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gd75n+nc4c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20910 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > I know that christians believe that witchcraft is wrong and evil and > that is why the churcg are trying to ban the books in school, but are > there any other arguments against them. Please post details here. I can't think of any reason why they hate the books besides what you just stated. As a Christian who is very involved in church myself, I hear a lot of arguments over Harry Potter. I originally read the books just to see what all the fuss was about...and of course I fell in love with little Harry. But many adults at my church, think that the books are evil and really *do* premote witchcraft. Let me tell you...I try not to laugh when I hear this, I really do. But the majority of those who oppose Harry Potter have never read the books. If they could just realize what they were saying...IMO, Harry Potter has nothing to do with religion. In JKR's world, being magical isn't a choice of religion, it's a talent or special trait, something you have no control over. I know this post may not have been very resourceful. I just hoped to give you some insight from a strong Christian who happens to love Harry Potter with all her heart! --Morgan From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Jun 15 15:27:51 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:27:51 -0000 Subject: Casting Message-ID: <9gd9hn+3k2e@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20911 I'm sure that the HP movies will not coincide with my own mental pictues of persons, landscapes etc.- and surely most of the *real* fans- like all of us- do feel like that. but I can't- and certainly don#t want to- keep my imagination from wandering freely and thus I sometimes amuse myself doing the casting for the next films: I would LOVE to see Hugh grant as Gilderoy Lockhart and Daniel Day-Lewis as Sirius Black. Anyway, they have already done a great thing casting Alan Rickman as Snape- I just can't await to see it. From sprsun at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 15:38:34 2001 From: sprsun at yahoo.com (sprsun at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:38:34 -0000 Subject: Newbie + translation questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gda5q+khmd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20912 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > Welcome. Thanks! > Sirius uses his first name in Ch 18: "Hurry up, Remus..." > Peter uses his first name in Ch 19. > Dumbledore uses it in Ch 22, when Remus is about to leave. Good. I thought at least they would use his first name. But Snape calls him Lupin all the time, right? Even though Lupin calls him Severus? Since I'm not very familiar with western customs... is it usual for one person to address another by the last name while being called the first name back? Just wondering. > It should be that you cannot Apparate or Disapparate in the castle. Sigh of relief. So glad it's not another puzzle. > In the UK versions (Ch 11) it is '... I'm impressed.... That suggests that > what you fear most of all is - fear.' Another Lupin quote! I'll copy it down. > C: <<<4. Does Prof. Trelawney know that Lupin's a werewolf? That conversation > she has with McDonagall in the Xmas dinner table reads like she do>>> Actually I was saying "reads like she does not know." Hence the question. For some strange reason that part was cut off. > Lupin says at some stage that all the staff know. Quote (Ch 17) 'But they > already know [about him being a werewolf],' said Lupin. 'At least, the staff > do.' So it is a guess as to whether or not this also extends to Trelawney, but > I would guess it does. I thought it should be the case, too. But then why would she question Lupin whereabout? Shouldn't she just know it's his time of month? Thanks for answering! Hui From bbennett at joymail.com Fri Jun 15 15:40:03 2001 From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:40:03 -0000 Subject: SHIPPING of Love and War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gda8k+a960@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20913 Ab's Goat wrote: I don't think this is an agree or disagree situation ? I don't remember reading a post from anyone who has said a relationship will only work if you have bickering or conflict. This simply depends on the personalities involved (as many here have mentioned as well). I know people who were good friends, fell in love, and after many years and nary an argument are happily married and still tremendously in love. I also have friends who bicker a lot, have less in common temperament-wise, and are more in love after ten years of marriage than when they first went to the alter. It's not fair to a lot of wonderful relationships to say that one in which there is no arguing is better than one in which there are disagreements. Although I think most of us would say that of course we'd prefer to be in a relationship where there is no arguing, how much we bicker in a relationship may just depend on whom we fall in love with. And honestly, bickering/debate is a hobby to some the way gardening is to others. That said, I don't take objection to a H/H relationship because I think a lack of conflict = a lack of sparks; I simply disagree that they are attracted to each other (I understand the discussions and respect the opinions of those who see that Hermione has an underlying attraction for Harry; I don't). Ron and Hermione do argue a lot, but as David theorized in his excellent post (20724), the heart of much of their conflict seems to be over basic respect (and misunderstandings of that respect) for each other. As David also mentioned, when it comes right down to it, Hermione and Ron obviously rate each other very highly (again, see post 20724 ? I can't state it better). These basic misunderstandings are likely to be worked out as they come to understand each other better/grow up. And even if they continue to bicker, it doesn't mean they can't have a lasting and successful relationship. As a side note on the "bickering as a hobby" comment, I see Hermione as someone who enjoys the challenge of a good disagreement. Ron is more than willing to go to bat and argue the opposing viewpoint; Harry is more inclined to disagree privately and go on. Not that this means there is a spark with one that can never be with the other, it's just that Hermione might disagree with the theory that because Ron argues back he's bad for her. Best, B From sprsun at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 15:43:17 2001 From: sprsun at yahoo.com (sprsun at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:43:17 -0000 Subject: Newbie + translation questions In-Reply-To: <9gckkc+k10h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gdael+5p9l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20914 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicki Granger" wrote: > 4. Does Prof. Trelawney know that Lupin's a werewolf? That > conversation she has with McDonagall in the Xmas dinner table reads > like she do > > ~Either she knows (Snape knew...) beacause of Dumbledore saying so, > but maybe he only told the 'high up' teachers. I think her Inner Eye > tells her something is up, but no specifics... I think maybe she doesn't attend the meeting where Dumbledore discusses this with the staff? It just surprised me that she'd ask where Lupin is when everyone else just know it. > Hope that helps! :-) It does. Thanks. Hui From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 15:55:28 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:55:28 -0000 Subject: Various SHIPPing questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gdb5g+6bsc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20915 Jenny wrote: > << tensions between Harry and Hermione the way I see tensions between Ron > and Hermione. I'd like to see their relationship (friendship or > otherwise) be developed a bit more, though, because I am still not > sure why they appear to be attracted to each other (Ron doesn't seem > like my type at all).>>> Penny wrote: > I take it from your last comment that you identify with Hermione? So many > of us do. Maybe we're projecting which boy we'd choose? :--) Again, I > fail to see why "tensions" in a relationship are necessary; in fact, I don't > see them as a good thing at all. I don't know what Jenny meant by "tensions" between Harry and Hermione, but what I mean by it (and the lack of it) is not "they don't bicker" but "there's no romantic/sexual tension." When you fall for someone, it introduces an awkwardness into your thoughts and words that doesn't disperse until your feeling are out in the open. We don't know what Hermione is feeling "first-hand." I have read the H/H Mission Statement (msg 13842) and still don't see any sign of this kind of tension emanating from her. But it's a matter of opinion, of course. We do know a lot of what Harry is feeling, and the best evidence that he has no feelings beyond friendship for Hermione as of the Yule Ball is his utterly commonsensical response to Ron's anger there. He really doesn't care in the slightest who Hermione goes to the ball with, he doesn't care if she hangs out with Viktor, he observes her conversation with him over dinner with the same calm interest as he would observe a conversation between her and anyone else, etc. I would say the same about his conversation with Viktor in "The Madness of Mr. Crouch." This is the kind of conversation that would stir up latent feelings of attraction if they were there: "hmmm, Hermione talks about me?" and/or "hmmm, Viktor's jealous of me? Maybe there =is= something for him to be jealous about, now that I think about it." I know, Penny, FITD means Harry doesn't have a crush on Hermione (yet), but there =are= H/H shippers who think he does (names withheld to protect the guilty ). One piece of evidence for such even sneaked into the H/H Mission Statement. BTW, I do identify with Hermione and I would choose Harry over Ron in a heartbeat, yet I'm still an R/Her. That's because my shipping (in this instance) isn't about what I want to see but what I think JKR is going to do. I certainly don't think my identification with Hermione means she has to have the same taste in boyfriends as I do. My best female friend and I have very different ideas about our ideal partners, even though she and I are very alike in many, many ways. Amy Z ------------------------------------------ "I thought it sounded a bit like Percy singing. Maybe you've got to attack him while he's in the shower, Harry." --HP and the Goblet of Fire ------------------------------------------ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 16:00:39 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] , quiz In-Reply-To: <20010615114041.42738.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010615160039.86960.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20916 --- Melanie Brackney wrote: > Hmmm. I like Bill and Charlie. What quiz? Is it the > selectsmart one? I got > Hermione as the one I most identify with. > > Vicky > > I'm probably the most like Hermione...with a bit of > Ginny in there too. I feel sorry for anybody who > would say they were most like Malfoy. LOL. > > I got Albus Dumbldore followed by Fred/George Weasley. Now there's a strange combination! Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 15 16:04:33 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:04:33 -0000 Subject: Snape, Lupin, Trelawney (was Newbie + translation questions) In-Reply-To: <9gda5q+khmd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gdbmh+9l7t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20917 Hui wrote: > But Snape calls him Lupin all the time, right? Even though Lupin > calls him Severus? Since I'm not very familiar with western > customs... is it usual for one person to address another by the last > name while being called the first name back? Just wondering. > No, it is not usual, and this is a sign of the relationship between Snape and Lupin. This was discussed on the list a few weeks ago On Snape's side, he detests Lupin and uses the last name to put him at a distance. On Lupin's side it is less clear: either he is being rude by assuming familiarity he does not possess, or he is asserting his status as an equal member of the teaching body, or he is trying to signal that he is not hostile and wants to move to a less antagonistic relationship. Lupin's behaviour to Snape is one of the (many) minor puzzles of PoA: he goes out of his way to praise Snape to Harry (compare Hagrid's embarrasment in PS/SS and amusement in GOF) and seems not to have the intense loathing that Sirius has. Either Lupin has accepted his experiences at Hogwarts better than Sirius has, or their experiences of Snape were different in the first place. > > > C: <<<4. Does Prof. Trelawney know that Lupin's a werewolf? >> Lupin says at some stage that all the staff know. So it is a >>guess as to whether or not this also extends to >> Trelawney, but I would guess it does. > > I thought it should be the case, too. But then why would she question > Lupin whereabout? Shouldn't she just know it's his time of month? Perhaps Trelawney knows perfectly well, and is just trying to impress the students, who aren't allowed to know. She knows that she has no credit to lose with Dumbledore and McGonagall. BTW, your guesses based on the Chinese translation were very good - you must have a gift for textual criticism. David, thinking that *if* Snape is a vampire and MWPP knew it, it could explain a lot From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 16:11:58 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:11:58 -0000 Subject: Invisibility takes many forms In-Reply-To: <00bb01c0f4e3$65b09a00$27e7183f@satellite> Message-ID: <9gdc4e+p9u1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20918 Ender wrote: > I agree with Wanda, but I personally think that JKR is going to >avoid homosexuality not because of controversy issues, but just >because it probably isn't essential to the plot. We've had four >books so far and we have yet to see any major indications of >heterosexuality (outside of schoolkid crushes), much less >homosexuality. That parenthesis packs a wallop, though. There is heterosexuality all over the books, whether in crushes, dating, dancing or marriages: -James and Lily -Lucius and Narcissa -Molly and Arthur -Vernon and Petunia -Harry and Cho -Cho and Cedric -Viktor and Hermione -Ron and Hermione -Ginny and Harry -Hagrid and Maxime -all the dancing couples at the Yule Ball In real life, all of these things have homosexual counterparts, though admittedly they are often closeted. In HP, as in most books (and the overwhelming proportion of books for young people), homosexuality is totally nonexistent. Many people don't sort out their sexual orientation 'til they're past the age of Hogwarts students, but many do. I know plenty of GLBT folks who, given safe circumstances, could've identified their orientation at age 5. >As a writer, I have no problem with themes of homosexuality, >heterosexuality or >bisexuality, if they're important to the plot or to a character's >development. Is Dean's being black important to his development or to the plot? So far, no, and I doubt it will be. I venture to say that he is black because there are black people in Britain, and leaving them out of a story entirely would be a very odd thing to do. However, society has not progressed to taking that view of gay and bi characters. Somehow it is deemed worthy of comment when a gay or bi character shows up, when what is really odd is when everyone in a novel is hetero. I believe that one day we'll look back at the books of today and say "Where are all the GLBT folks?," just as we now look at picture books of the 40's and say, "Where are all the people of color?" I look forward to that day. BTW, I don't expect or want JKR to deal with homosexuality as a "theme." She is very interested in prejudice, but she deals with it via the wizard/Muggle/Squib hierarchies, the house elf issue, the prejudice against giants and werewolves, etc. That's terrific. Amy Z --------------------------------------- If only the hat had mentioned a house for people who felt a bit queasy, that would have been the one for him. --HP and the Philosopher's Stone --------------------------------------- From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 16:32:18 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:32:18 -0000 Subject: SHIPPING of Love and War In-Reply-To: <9gda8k+a960@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gddai+qdo7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20919 B wrote: >Ron and Hermione do argue a lot, > but as David theorized in his excellent post (20724), the heart of > much of their conflict seems to be over basic respect (and > misunderstandings of that respect) for each other. As David also > mentioned, when it comes right down to it, Hermione and Ron obviously > rate each other very highly (again, see post 20724 ? I can't > state it better). Me either. I think it's an important point, because all of us, shippers and no-shippers of every description, do seem to agree that Ron, Hermione, and Harry all love each other. Their friendship is a point that isn't in any doubt. (Now someone will come out of the woodwork to cast it in doubt, LOL. Go for it!) So the question is, if bickering ruins romances (and it can), does it ruin friendships too (of course it can, but is it inevitable)? Those of you who think R/H will never fly as a long-term romance, do you predict a cooling in their friendship too? Amy Z From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 15 16:56:51 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:56:51 -0000 Subject: Sirius' anger (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gdeoj+4srj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20920 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Vicky Ra [mailto:andromache815 at h...] > > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 12:41 PM > > > I didn't take it as a rant. You're just defending Sirius, which is perfectly > > natural. I'm sorry. It's just, I tend to liken him to Ron, and for the > > record, I don't much like Ron, either, so...it's somewhat fair...You're > > right about no evidence so far of Sirius' maturity or lack thereof in canon. > > was one of those who didn't think that Sirius and Ron were much alike. > I don't want to repeat it all here, but Ron's temper is something entirely > different from Sirius' temper (IMHO). Suffice to say that I think that > Ron is just still a bit immature and has been overshadowed by his > brothers all his life. I *really* hope he will mature soon because I like > him, and at least at the moment, I don't mind it too much. Now, Sirius. > It seems that he was quite immature at 16 when he told Snape about > the Whomping Willow (but he did *not* drag him into the tunnel, > Snape's own behavior was just as immature, let's face it), but I am > still convinced that Sirius' violent outbursts in PoA have > *nothing* to do with overall poor impulse control. (If I bore you, > just don't read on.) They look way more like a pretty classic symptom > of post-traumatic stress disorder. I'd like to see the individual that > would go through what Sirius has gone through and get away > without being traumatized. > But Sirius is definitely *not* evil IMO. And I am convinced that he wouldn't > even think of killing Snape even if there hadn't been this stupid handshake > ordered by Dumbledore. He still hates Snape, that's true, but he's not > interested in killing him, he wouldn't go looking for him. I agree with this. I think that sending Snape to the Whomping Willow was an immature teenage prank, in which the ramifications hadn't properly been thought through. On to Sirius in PoA, everyone has debated at length why he slashed the Fat Lady etc. I am pretty sure that it is a case of PTSD, but I would go further and say that current circumstances were also at play here, making Sirius even more angry and frustrated. He has spent 12 years in Azkaban for something he didn't do, although he does feel responsible for the death of Lily and James, so guilt is a factor here as well. He knows that Wormtail is alive and close to Harry - giving him the impetous to escape, as he a) wants to protect Harry b) bring Wormtail to justice (by killing him, I know, but the law hasn't served Sirius very well, so this vigilantism seems here to be almost reasonable and c) on some level he wants to atone - assuage his guilt over James and Lily by protecting their son. Circumstances prevent him from doing this adequately. He couldn't risk going to Dumbledore, although I have always wondered why he doesn't try to do this. It would surely have been possible to get Dumbledore to give him the benefit of the doubt and send for Ron and Scabbers, to see if there was any truth in what Sirius is saying. But this takes us back to the PTSD - 12 years in Azkaban means that Sirius is incapable of initially acting in a rational way - and he probably doesn't trust anyone at this point - even Dumbledore, who afterall did confirm to the Ministry that Sirius was secret keeper. I would have been surprised if Sirius had shown less hatred than he does. He is single-mindedly pursuing Wormtail - and takes risks in doing so, although he isn't stupid enough initially to enter the boys' dormitory when they are there - he waits for Hallowe'en to attempt this. The second attempt he makes shows how desperate he has become. Finally, Sirius in GoF. At great personal risk, he comes back to Hogwarts because he is worried about Harry and wants to keep an eye on him. He acts extremely maturely in all his dealings with Harry - ensuring that Harry does not take risks by making him promise not to. He is there to offer counsel when Harry is very low over Ron's temporary defection and his lack of popularity before the first task. The only anger he shows is when he talks about being sent to Azkaban by Barty Crouch without a trial, and when he and Snape confront one another in the final chapters. Considering how the last 13years have been spent for Sirius, it is not surprising that any animosity he felt for people prior to his incarceration are magnified. I don't know whether this is correct, but I thought that the Dementors suck away happy, positive thoughts, leaving those affected to dwell more on the negative, unhappy thoughts, and I therefore think it possible that anger (a negative emotion) is one such emotion which may be magnified. Even if this is not the case, Sirius's childhood animosity towards Snape, which is wholeheartedly reciprocated, is in no way diminished by Snape's behaviour in the Shrieking Shack - Snape refuses to listen, and wants to feed Sirius straight to the Dementors. This would be understandable if he really believed that Harry et al were suffering from a confundus charm. But I didn't think at the time this was the case - I thought it was Snape spitefully revelling in having the upperhand over Sirius, Lupin and Harry. So I am not surprised that the shared animosity between them has not abated. Phew, this was a bit long and rambly - sorry. As you can see, I am also a Sirius fan, and find a lot to admire in the way he behaves in GoF. This is partly to do with the fact that I am desperate for Harry to have a father figure, but also, because I have never seen him as the womanising, immature figure that many on this list seem to believe in. Apart from the scene when he lures Snape to the Whomping Willow, I can't really see how Sirius is differentiated from James in JKR's descriptions of them both. They are both described as very bright, charming, trouble-makers, popular. The only real difference is that James got married and had Harry - and this could just as well be the circumstance of meeting the right person sooner rather than later, not due to any womanising immaturity on Sirius' part. I always wonder if Sirius was in a serious relationship before he was sent to Azkaban. Catherine From banjoken at optonline.net Fri Jun 15 17:03:31 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:03:31 -0000 Subject: , quiz In-Reply-To: <20010615160039.86960.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gdf53+3v64@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20921 > I got Albus Dumbldore followed by Fred/George Weasley. > Now there's a strange combination! I got exactly the same thing, and I think it's a great match! I don't think Dumbledore and Gred and Forge are so different as it might seem at first glance. I have a sneaking suspicion that Dumbledore finds the Weasley twins quite amusing, and will miss having them around when they're out of school. Ken From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:13:03 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma Moniz) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:13:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius' anger (long) In-Reply-To: <9gdeoj+4srj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gdfn0+ng2a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20922 > > > I agree with this. I think that sending Snape to the Whomping Willow was an immature teenage prank, in which the ramifications hadn't properly been thought through. On to Sirius in PoA, everyone has debated at length why he slashed the Fat Lady etc. I am pretty sure that it is a case of PTSD, but I would go further and say that current circumstances were also at play here, making Sirius even more angry and frustrated. He has spent 12 years in Azkaban for something he didn't do, although he does feel responsible for the death of Lily and James, so guilt is a factor here as well. He knows that Wormtail is alive and close to Harry - giving him the impetous to escape, as he a) wants to protect Harry b) bring Wormtail to justice (by killing him, I know, but the law hasn't served Sirius very well, so this vigilantism seems here to be almost reasonable and c) on some level he wants to atone - assuage his guilt over James and Lily by protecting their son. I'm going to add in my two bits here, but I think it's possible that there is a tinge of Suvivor Syndrome tossed in there to magnify everything. Sirius, at that time, was the only one who knew the truth of how James and Lilly died. And he knew about Peter's betrayal, as James and Lilly must have moments before they died. For many people, there is an incredible sense of guilt established by surviving a situation when people dear to the subject do not. This guilt has to be amazing, considering everything Sirius has endured. I'd say some of his outbursts are relevant to Survivor Syndrome. So yes, pretty much the same, but giving it a name. I tend to think names are very important. One has to wonder what dear Remus was thinking when all of this went down. I'm sure it's been covered, but I could analyse my favourite werewolf until doomsday and never tire of it.... ~Emma From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:41:15 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:41:15 -0000 Subject: What are the arguments against the hp books? In-Reply-To: <9gd1gf+cck8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gdhbr+j6oc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20923 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > I know that christians believe that witchcraft is wrong and evil > and that is why the churcg are trying to ban the books in school, > but are there any other arguments against them. I think this misperception needs to be corrected. Most Christians are not trying to get Harry Potter banned -- in schools or anywhere else. There are some Christian ministers and groups who consider Harry Potter to be bad because it talks of wizardry. The opinion is largely based in ignorance, because they won't read the texts to begin with. For the most part, this is likely to be the same contingent who opposed role-playing games and made a fuss about the Proctor and Gamble "man in the moon". It does a disservice to Christians in general, however, to suggest that this vocal minority expresses the views of the religion as a monolithic whole. ....Craig From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:45:48 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:45:48 -0000 Subject: Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie In-Reply-To: <9gd432+4efe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gdhkc+r6it@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20924 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mediaphen at h... wrote: > Krum is, besides the name of a famous Bulgarian Seeker, a Swedish > word meaning "bent" or "crooked". It is used only when referring to > limbs, particulary legs: "Krumbent" meaning "with bent legs". Isn't > that precisely how Viktor is described when not on a broomstick? Krumm has the same meaning in German. > Swedish word krumbent (from which the name Krum may have derived) > can be translated into bent legs, crooked legs or crookshanks. Ring > a bell? Could it be that Crookshanks the cat in fact is a > semi-animagi (as discussed before in the Litter of > Werewolves-Animagi-threads) relative of Viktor Krum? Crookshanks is a kneazle. See the HP school books. ....Craig From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 17:50:29 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:50:29 -0000 Subject: Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie In-Reply-To: <9gd432+4efe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gdht5+7vb0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20925 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mediaphen at h... wrote: > Given JKR's habit of giving her characters names that describes their > characteristics, I thought of something that may, or may not, be > purely coincidence: > > Krum is, besides the name of a famous Bulgarian Seeker, a Swedish > word meaning "bent" or "crooked". It is used only when referring to > limbs, particulary legs: "Krumbent" meaning "with bent legs". Isn't > that precisely how Viktor is described when not on a broomstick? > Again, a name describing its owner. > > Now allow me to extend this a little bit further, making it perhaps > even more far-fetched: > > Swedish word krumbent (from which the name Krum may have derived) can > be translated into bent legs, crooked legs or crookshanks. Ring a > bell? > Could it be that Crookshanks the cat in fact is a semi-animagi (as > discussed before in the Litter of Werewolves-Animagi-threads) > relative of Viktor Krum? And if so, maybe Krum's affection for > Hermione is caused, or fueled, by her affection for Crookshanks. That > would also explain the fact that Crookshanks is smarter than the > average cat. > > Am I *way* out of line here, or have anybody else out there thought > along these lines? > > Martin Smith, Gothenburg, Sweden > Hi, Martin, welcome to the madhouse! You have no reason to apologize. Your observation about Krum's name is completely new to me and to everyone with whom I have spoken, who are all certain that the pun on bent legs was entirely intentional on JKR's part. The origin of Crookshanks has been a matter of much spirited debate, with theories of Kneazles and animagi with connections to various persons clashing merrily. Crookshanks/Krumbent is a worthy addition to the mix. Haggridd p.s. Are you enjoying the visit of George W.? From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 17:54:06 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' anger (long) In-Reply-To: <9gdeoj+4srj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010615175406.2897.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20926 > .....I have never seen > him as the womanising, immature figure that many on this list seem > to believe in. Apart from the scene when he lures Snape to the > Whomping Willow, I can't really see how Sirius is differentiated > from James in JKR's descriptions of them both. They are both > described as very bright, charming, trouble-makers, popular. The > only real difference is that James got married and had Harry - and > this could just as well be the circumstance of meeting the right > person sooner rather than later, not due to any womanising > immaturity on Sirius' part. Well, actually there is a major difference between James and Sirius. (For the record I am one of the people on the list who thinks Sirius is immature although I'm agnostic on the womanising issue.) At the age of sixteen Sirius Black set up his good friend Remus Lupin for murder by giving Severus Snape sufficient information to allow him to intrude on Lupin during a transformation into a werewolf. Yeah, I know Snape made the decision to pursue the matter on his own and that's not Sirius' fault. But I don't think that would have made Lupin feel any better when he returned to his human form and discovered what he'd done. It would be impossible to hide a dead body, someone would find out, Lupin would at the very, very least have been expelled, Hogwarts would be in trouble for letting Lupin in in the first place, Snape's family (or guardians or whatever) would be fired up for blood, etc. etc.etc. And almost twenty years later Sirius still doesn't get it. He still thinks Snape would have deserved it for being such a pain in school. Assuming that Snape deserved it (I don't but for the sake of argument let's suppose), Lupin certainly didn't. And the difference between Sirius (still clueless after twenty years) and James is that it took James figured it all out and made the decision to save Snape from death and Lupin from big, major trouble. So, yes, I do think there's a difference between James and Sirius. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:56:47 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:56:47 -0000 Subject: quiz In-Reply-To: <20010615160039.86960.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gdi8v+pndk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20927 Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > --- Melanie Brackney wrote: > > Hmmm. I like Bill and Charlie. What quiz? Is it the selectsmart > > one? I got Hermione as the one I most identify with. > > > > I'm probably the most like Hermione...with a bit of > > Ginny in there too. I feel sorry for anybody who > > would say they were most like Malfoy. LOL. > > I got Albus Dumbldore followed by Fred/George Weasley. > Now there's a strange combination! I must be your near antithesis then. Dumbledore and the twins came up #15 and #16 (out of #18) on mine. Only Voldemort and Minerva McGonagall were lower. Per the test, I'm most like Ron -- which is no surprise to me. After all, when I got to the part that he was in danger in the tournament, I got angry at JKR and put the book down for a long while, angry that she would kill off my favorite character so soon. (Of course, she didn't, but I'm still on edge about the notion.) After Ron, I had Hermione, Draco, and Severus, which I'm content enough with. :^) ....Craig From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 18:25:05 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:25:05 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Newbie + translation questions References: <9gda5q+khmd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <016301c0f5c8$80d3c380$3911eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20928 Hello, Yay, another Chinese person! One who reads Chinese, too, excellent. I've been thinking about buying the Chinese translation in addition to my USA versions, but with the problems you've stated, I think I'll stick with buying the UK versions when I'm in Hong Kong. > But Snape calls him Lupin all the time, right? Even though Lupin > calls him Severus? Since I'm not very familiar with western > customs... is it usual for one person to address another by the last > name while being called the first name back? Just wondering. No, it's not usual, afaik (as far as I know), which is why Snape (or Lupin) does it. Hmm, was it especially jarring to you that people call each other by first name in the books? (since we Chinese usually call people by family name, or has that changed during the last generation? I know for a fact that fewer than ten people are 'allowed' to call my dad by his given name... And that I've always called my aunt (from mainland) as "small lau aunt") > Lupin whereabout? Shouldn't she just know it's his time of month? His time of the month... Excuse my silliness. little Alex From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 18:31:01 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:31:01 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where can I find some hp slashfic? References: <9gd2bl+n9e8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <018501c0f5c9$54d746c0$3911eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20929 Hello, From: > Slashfic? Too many places. hpslash, snapeslash, harrypotterslash -- all yahoogroups, afaik. I know that there are lists dedicated to specific pairings, too (even one for twincest). little Alex From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 18:27:25 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:27:25 -0000 Subject: Dale V. Fry Comparison-Intrerim Report IV: Revisions, retractions, conclusions Message-ID: <9gdk2d+liqt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20930 Well, I've finally finished the Fry reading of PoA, and I have come to reverse myself on some previous opinions. I have come to like Fry's Hagrid much better. His is equally as good as Dale's. I also have changed my mind on Fry's Ron. It has grown on me. In general, I find that Fry succeeds better with human or part human beings. Dale draws his characters too broadly, and they become caricatures of whatever attribute Dale wants to emphasize. Dale has the better trained voice, with more range of expression, but he uses it without restraint, and his Snape becomes a slavering fool, rather than the extremely intelligent and proud wizard that Fry makes him. There are two humans whose voice I find are better read by Dale, however: Fudge, whom Dale gives a fussy, "sniffy" bureaucratic intonation that works well for me, and Lupin, who seems somehow more empathetic in the Dale rendering than that of Fry. I also confess to liking Dale's Dumbledore. Dale gives Albus his skewed sense of humor as JKR wrote it. Fry has much less range. Many of his characters sound alike, and if it weren't for context, I would confuse one with another. I would love to have him influence a second Dale reading to exercise some restraint. As for new characters introduced in PoA, I love Fry's Sirius Black; while Peter Pettigrew is poorly read and too, too similar to other voices. I also think that his voice breaks here unintentionally. Because of Dale's greater range, I think that he succeeds better with the nonhuman beings: the Centaurs, Aragog, Dobby, Winky. I look forward to comparing Fry's Mme. Maxime to Dale's. Also the other foreign accents: Fleur, Karkaroff, Krum, and Moody. *grin* I would also like to commend Fry for pronouncing "animagus" with a hard "g". I can only surmise that Dale's editors told him to mispronounce it in order not to confuse American readers because of the soft "g" (correct, this time) in the plural, "animagi". I must take issue with Fry for the sound effects. His use of echo for the Howlers works well, but he also used it for all of Harry's dreams and for the fears engendered by the Dementors, where I do not like its use. Less would be more. One thing that I have not encountered is an occasion where a reading from either man has changed my understanding of the meaning of the story. I mention this because I remember a thread about Crouch which asserts this-- I cannot wait until GoF. I have said before that I really like Dale's Winky, and his reading clarified much of the plot for me, but it didn't change what I thought was happening or what portended. We shall see. We shall see. Haggridd From athena.arena at virgin.net Fri Jun 15 18:33:46 2001 From: athena.arena at virgin.net (Rachel Adams) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:33:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If I were invited to HWarts when would my letter arrive? References: <992612074.2439.72420.l8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002801c0f5c9$d39d31e0$08bbfea9@adams> No: HPFGUIDX 20931 Hey everybody, > Would it have come on my 11th birthday (the 16th of October) and then > I would wait until September the next year before I went to Hogwarts. > Or would the letter arrive in the summer just before September. Please > tell me what you think, this one kept me up last night I think actually it would arrive in the July AFTER your eleventh birthday. I have a theory that Hogwarts does in fact mirror a lot of things in British muggle education. Our school terms run from September to July, and one year group takes in kids born within 1st September in say, 1979 to 31st August of 1980. Hence Harry is very young for his year, being 31st July 1980, while Hermione is one of the oldest (September 19th, as JKR stated in a couple of web chats I've read over on hpgalleries). So basically, by the time we reach secondary school, everybody in the year group has turned eleven. Who do I support this British education parallel? Well, it's mainly based on both entrance years and OWL and NEWT timings. We take GCSEs in our fifth year of secondary (high) school, whilst ignoring all the horrible and hideous changes the government have been making, we take our A-levels in our seventh year. Therefore I reckon that OWLs are the equivalent of GCSEs and NEWTs of A-levels, Certainly in the nauseatingly exhausting bit. We don't do any form of Graduation here: We just take our exams, go home and wait until the middle of August for the results to come out. I base the entrance year as being the equivalent of British kids going up to secondary school because both Harry and Dudley are described as going onto their secondary schools after the summer at the beginning of PS/SS. Does that make sense? Rachel xxx A relative newbie who a) can't remember if she's done an introduction and b) is in the middle of her own NEWTs. And they are nauseatingly exhausting, believe me. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 18:34:48 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:34:48 -0000 Subject: Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie In-Reply-To: <9gdhkc+r6it@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gdkg8+nrhe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20932 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mediaphen at h... wrote: > > Crookshanks is a kneazle. See the HP school books. > > ....Craig No, he isn't; I'll bet you a chocolate frog! Haggridd From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Fri Jun 15 18:28:44 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:28:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If I were invited to HWarts when would my letter arrive? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20933 > > Real-To: "Rachel Adams" > > Hey everybody, > > > Would it have come on my 11th birthday (the 16th of > October) and then > > I would wait until September the next year before I went to > Hogwarts. > > Or would the letter arrive in the summer just before > September. Please > > tell me what you think, this one kept me up last night > > I think actually it would arrive in the July AFTER your > eleventh birthday. I > have a theory that Hogwarts does in fact mirror a lot of > things in British > muggle education. Also, Harry wasn't supposed to get his letter *on* his eleventh birthday. If he'd gotten the first one they sent, he would've had it a few days before he turned eleven. From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 18:37:33 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:37:33 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010614184840.00e27740@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9gdkld+394k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20934 I won't even dignify the racist and homophobic comments on this topic with a real retort... I think the only real problem with a Harry/Cho relationship (not race, not age) is the fact that he simply saw her from afar and was smitten. He knows nothing about her, her personality, her likes and dislikes, what kind of student she is, nothing. JKR doesn't even report them having a conversation of more than 30 seconds' duration before he asked her to the Yule Ball. He might as well have a crush on a picture of a model in a magazine. OTOH, she seemed like she might have been inclined to accept his invitation were it not for her already having accepted Cedric's. But I'm guessing that that was for the same reason that a handful of girls Harry didn't even know asked him out; he is Harry Potter, he is one of the school champions, and wouldn't it be cool to go to the ball with HIM and make all your friends jealous? Even if they ever "date" in the canon books, I don't see it going anywhere, and once again, Harry would have to worry about the Forces of Evil targetting her...He's just too nice to want that to happen. From lilith_snape at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 18:39:15 2001 From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:39:15 -0000 Subject: Hybrid vigour and Cindersnape In-Reply-To: <003401c0f575$af4223e0$f191aecb@price> Message-ID: <9gdkoj+og9a@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20935 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > >Lilith, who finds slash between Snape/Dumbledore slightly amusing. > > Now that would explain why Snape loathes Harry more and more: he's jealous of all the attention Harry gets from Dumbledore! Maybe Severus needs a makeover to get Dumbledore to notice him... > LOL! I guess it would. Trying to stop him from entering the office and all...If Albus got a couple of Viagra boxes somewhere I see no actual resons to why they couldn't have a cosy time together... Lilith From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Fri Jun 15 18:36:21 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:36:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20936 > > Real-To: "Haggridd" > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mediaphen at h... wrote: > > > > Crookshanks is a kneazle. See the HP school books. > > > > ....Craig > > No, he isn't; I'll bet you a chocolate frog! Yes, he is. JKR said so in an interview - Amanda Lewanski did a transcript of the interview at message 17808, and you can hear the interview for yourself at http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/harry_potter25.shtml Click on "Watch Lizo's latest interview with J.K" to watch the interview in RealPlayer. You can order the frogs from Marks & Sparks, but they're supposedly not terrific. Maybe when MARS gets involved... From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 19:02:20 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:02:20 -0000 Subject: What are the arguments against the hp books? In-Reply-To: <9gd75n+nc4c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gdm3s+akqt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20937 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MorganaH3947 at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > > I know that christians believe that witchcraft is wrong and evil [snip] Just a post to say that saying that all Christians believe anything is just naive. Just look in your local phone book to see how many different flavors of Christians there are. I think I've said before that some of the biggest Harry Potter fans I know are ministers and church employees (our minister did a fantastic children's sermon about boggarts, and had the entire congregation shouting, "Riddikulous!"). People who are against Harry Potter are against many things that actually induce people to think for themselves...That's what really sets them off. And when I started reading the books to my kids and they wanted to know whether real witches exist, I told them yes, and that I'm friends with some of them (wiccans). However, I told them that my witch friends largely describe themselves as being concerned with treating the earth and all people with respect...Not a bad thing at all, IMHO. From MorganaH3947 at aol.com Fri Jun 15 19:06:56 2001 From: MorganaH3947 at aol.com (MorganaH3947 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:06:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: , quiz Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20938 > I got Albus Dumbldore followed by Fred/George Weasley. >? Now there's a strange combination! Heh heh. I got Ronald Weasley followed by Draco Malfoy. Now what does this say about me, eh? Do I seem to have a little bit of a temper? --Morgan, who is sorry this is OT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lilith_snape at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 19:08:27 2001 From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:08:27 -0000 Subject: Snape and maturity (was: Re: Sirius and Snape thoughts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gdmfb+vp6q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20939 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" wrote: > Lilith: James only did what anyone with a decent brain would have done- > (sorry, I don't count him braver than average...) > > Yay! Another person who agrees with me. :) And besides, James would be expelled in a second if he and his gang killed a fellow student... > > Lilith: Dumbledore forgave Snape for being a Death Eater, made him a spy and > gave him a job at Hogwarts (in a time when I *do* believe that the > name Severus Snape wasn't associated with anything positive in the > wizarding world)- just imagine what a debt for Snape to pay back! > > But just how common was the knowledge of Snape's spy status? I got the > impression that Snape's trial wasn't widely known. Heck, Fudge saw the dark > mark on him, and thought Snape was joking or something. Makes me wonder if > Fudge even knew about his former Death Eater status. And I doubt parents > would be comfortable with the knowledge of an ex-Death Eater around their > children. > I'm not sure about this. When Karkaroff mentioned Snape's name during his own trial, a lot of people must have known. "Not one of the witches and wizards in the room (and there were at least two hundred of them) was looking at him." GoF Ch. 30.- The Pensieve. Fudge must have known that Snape was a DE, something that important cannot have slipped out of his brain! Which leads me to wonder what Dumbledore might have done to make "at least 200" witches and wizards to trust Snape to teach their kids. Maybe something happened during the years that followed? > Lilith: I imagine him being pretty grateful of course, but also, and more > importantly- angry with Albus for doing what he did. "Damn you for > making me owe you all this, Albus Dumbledore!" > > Well, this would be true, on the premise that he hates Dumbledore. However, > I think he loves him, and I think Dumbledore loves Snape and has a special > place in his heart for him. Only he had the nerve to betray Voldie, and that > certainly would have gotten Dumbledore's respect. So I must disagree here. Love doesn't exclude other feelings. And I don't think that Snape is entirely satisfied with owing something to anyone, let it be Dumbledore or someone else. > Magda: Eventually he will come around but after a maturation process that > will be long and tortuous. > > What maturation process? He's petty and malicious, but he's on the right > side. Found this note on the psychological type called Feral Child. Not completely true in Snape's case, but just look at it. A lot of it is him all over! "The Feral Child: This person has overcome adversity her or his whole life, but has never descended into victim status. He or she is proud of not owing anything to anyone. A keen eye for human character flaws allows this person to prey on the weak and not trust the schemers. Actually, the Feral Child trusts no one. Being surrounded by schemers and backstabbers sharpens their belief that humanity is out to get them. The Feral Child was so injured early in life that they remain emotionally young. They've lived the life of Survivor forever, so the game is just an extension of their day-to-day existence." Though, I believe that Snape trusts Dumbledore, more or less. And I'm completely convinced that he *will* suffer greatly when he dies. Yes, Harry will misinterpret as usual and see the fury I'm sure poor Severus will possess as the usual nastiness instead of pure sorrow. > > Vicky Lilith From ebonyink at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 19:10:42 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:10:42 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry/Cho is wrong Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20940 Barbara wrote: >I won't even dignify the racist and homophobic comments on this topic >with a real retort... Neither will I. I wish I had waited to respond to the initial post myself--I thought we were going to actually begin an intelligent ship debate that had nothing to do with R/H or H/H for a change. ;-) >I think the only real problem with a Harry/Cho relationship (not >race, not age) is the fact that he simply saw her from afar and was >smitten. What's wrong with that? Ginny saw Harry from afar and was smitten--yet people defend her crush all the time. >He knows nothing about her, her personality, her likes and >dislikes, what kind of student she is, nothing. JKR doesn't even >report them having a conversation of more than 30 seconds' duration >before he asked her to the Yule Ball. He might as well have a crush >on a picture of a model in a magazine. Well, let them spend a Saturday together in Hogsmeade in some future book just so they can find out how compatible they really are. Just because they're wrong for one another doesn't mean they shouldn't date at all... in fact, I'm all for "try it and see if you like it" in lots of situations. (This is why at this point I don't mind seeing R/H happen in canon.) An easy "first" talking point for Harry and Cho might be Quidditch. Another could be flying in general--Heidi Tandy's recent chapter of "A Surfeit of Curses" (read it, it's really very good) mentions a Hogwarts racetrack. Another could be brooms. They're both well-known students... perhaps Cho feels as trapped in her popularity as Harry feels in his fame. We as readers might get to know Cho and learn she has plenty of substance. I do think it's more likely that JKR will develop Ginny for this purpose instead of Cho, and Cedric could be a major issue, but still, we don't know. I'd hesitate a bit before I dismissed her. >Even if they ever "date" in the canon books, I don't see it going >anywhere, and once again, Harry would have to worry about the Forces >of Evil targetting her...He's just too nice to want that to happen. I totally agree. My money's on canon R/H, and canon Harry-No Ship. The former I'll reserve comment on. The latter just plain makes sense. --EBony AKA AngieJ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 19:29:56 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:29:56 -0000 Subject: Lilly a Lesbian? In-Reply-To: <00bb01c0f4e3$65b09a00$27e7183f@satellite> Message-ID: <9gdnnk+1s01@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20941 Hello, Sorry to return to this after so long... "ender_w" wrote: >>>books so far and we have yet to see any major indications of heterosexuality (outside of schoolkid crushes), much less<<< All the marriages in the book indicates heterosexuality... >>>without ever touching on sexuality at all. Harry Potter probably will be one of those.<<< I hope that it will be one of the great classics in the future, but every time a children's book mentions marriage and someone's straight parents, it's subtly mentioning sexuality, heterosexuality in specific. I sincerely wish that in a future world, authors can mention that the kid hero has gay parents and that'd be as ordinary as if the kid had straight parents. That one of his uncles is married to a man and the kid would think of it as normal as the other uncle who is married to a woman. It would appear that in our current world, I'm asking for too much. Am I? From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 19:41:03 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:41:03 -0000 Subject: Hybrid vigour and Cindersnape In-Reply-To: <003401c0f575$af4223e0$f191aecb@price> Message-ID: <9gdocf+6mvt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20942 Hello, "Tabouli" wrote: >>>read alarming accounts of mixed race couples being spat on and denounced on the street by both races in parts of the US: eek! Is this common, or just sensationalisation of things rare and localised? <<< Good god! I don't doubt that such incidents happen, but I very much doubt that they happen that often. And highly improbable in large cities. So, yes, the sensationalisation. (one more small mention...) >>>serious or not, but I find your comments not too extreme, but too laughable.<<< Exactly my reaction. I can hardly be angered by such an idiot. Pity, I think, was my reaction. >>>in the Forbidden Forest?), he could be lean and handsome, with silky raven locks framing dashingly hawklike features. Then, blossoming in the newfound admiration of his students and colleagues, he would become a warm, fatherly teacher to Harry, forgive Sirius, and win the heart of Dumbledore, who'd abandon his ambiguous relationship with Fawkes and wed Snape in a glamorous occasion in the Great Hall, at which the happy guests would order Phoenix casserole...<<< I think you really should join Snapeslash, they'd love you there . Though I *am* rather fond of poor Fawkes. little Alex From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 20:01:43 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:01:43 -0700 Subject: Crookshanks as Kneazle (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie) References: <9gdkg8+nrhe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <021b01c0f5d6$005ee780$3911eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20943 Hello, Craig stated: > > Crookshanks is a kneazle. See the HP school books. Haggridd objected: > No, he isn't; I'll bet you a chocolate frog! I know Crookshanks is part Kneazle, according to either a JKR interview or something... little Alex From ochfd42 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 19:59:23 2001 From: ochfd42 at yahoo.com (Angela Boyko) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:59:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin/Dennis Crevey In-Reply-To: <20010614230037.18485.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010615195923.28439.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20944 --- Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > > > Actually Angela in CoS colin tells Harry that > someone > told him that is he develops the pictures in a > certain > solution(potion? Sorry I don't have the book here to > check at the moment can someone pull the relavant > text > please?) the pictures will move, so there isn't a > problem with him taking the pictures with a "normal" > camera. Colin did say that, but he didn't know if it was true or not. That's what I would like to know - can he do it? Some people will spend hours theorizing the number of students at Hogwarts, I just want to know more about wizard photography and painting. :-) Angela ===== * * * http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/4439/index.html * * * May the Force be with you _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 20:06:11 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:06:11 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPPING of Love and War References: <9gda8k+a960@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <004501c0f5d6$9fdd70b0$c871023e@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 20945 > I don't think this is an agree or disagree situation - I > don't remember reading a post from anyone who has said a > relationship will only work if you have bickering or conflict. Quite! I guess I shouldn't blather so much. What I was trying to say is that if Jo herself has apparently tended toward stormy relationships, Hermione, who is very similar to Jo, may well do the same. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high." From klhurt at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 20:07:01 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly the Yarn Junkie) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Various Threads Message-ID: <20010615200701.41941.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20946 1. Hermione & Diagon Alley: Instead of recieving a letter by owl, it is my theory that Hermione's letter was delivered by a witch or wizard (McGonagall?) that first year, as are all Muggle-borns'. I have no proof, but it just seems logical. Otherwise the parents might think -- probably, *would* think -- the whole thing a joke. [Harry wasn't visited in person because it was assumed he knew about his parents/magic/Hogwarts. When he didn't answer by July 31, Dumbledore sent Hagrid.] 2. Sirius' Wand: After escaping on Buckbeak, Sirius probably stop by a wandmaker's in a different country -- after a visit to the local branch of Gringott's -- said he'd broken his wand and bought another. 3. HP & Christianity: Not all Christians condemn the books. But there are enough that I urge everyone to read the book _Harry Potter & the Bible_ so that you will know exactly what the objections are and how best to counter them should you feel called on to do so. The author makes a few good points, a few errors, and a few -- in my opinion -- strange leaps. [For the record, I'm agnostic.] 4. Crookshanks: I thought he was a kneazle/cat hybrid? 5. 'Poor' Weasleys: I read a book once where anything 'conjured' out of thin air disappeared in a day, sorta like leprechaun gold. We've never seen anything conjured like that endure in the Potterverse, have we? 6. Wizard Wheezes: I'm sure the twins used magic illegally to develop Ton-Tongue Toffees and Canary Cremes. They didn't get in trouble because A)if someone was monitoring magic use, there were no Muggles nearby and any magic being done at The Burrow could be assumed to be done by adults and B) no one told on them. If you read the Ministry letter Harry received in CoS, it clearly states they had been *informed* of a Hover Charm being used. Clearly, Dobby -- who has his own brand of magic -- used a simple charm Harry could know and then made sure the Ministry knew. Kelly the Yarn Junkie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 15 20:12:05 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:12:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Contemporary relevant issues based childrens literature - and JKR, thank the Lord In-Reply-To: <9gdc4e+p9u1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0f5d7$726b9200$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 20947 I suspect sooner or later (there are, of course, those of us who would say "already") JKR will introduce a gay character or two, in that down played "yes of course they are but who's making an issue of it?" way she has already managed with girls playing sport and not being abused for it (I reckon at least one of the Bulgarian team was female, for a start) and black and Asian characters. what I would be horrified to see (and know I won't) is that oh so worthy lets have real contemporary issues here and make a real point of talking on and on about them garbage that chalked up so many awards in children's literature from the start of the seventies onwards and was so deadly to read ( Joan Lingard and Honor Arundel, you have a lot to answer for). Why bother, when in the wizarding world you can have really *interesting* personal problems. Why should the author who gave us those tantalising glimpses into Wizarding angst ("Men Who Love Dragons Too Much" "Hairy Snout, Human Heart - One Wizard's Tragic Batle With Lycanthropy") limit herself? I long to read the Agony Column of Witch Weekly ("My mother says dating a Veela is just infatuation but I know it's true love" "Is your teenage tearaway a closet Death Eater?" "Fourteen telltale signs to let you know the neighbours are vampires" ). Susan From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 15 20:12:06 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:12:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Newbie + translation questions In-Reply-To: <9gda5q+khmd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000101c0f5d7$7334fc80$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 20948 >But Snape calls him Lupin all the time, right? Even though Lupin calls him Severus? Since I'm not very familiar with western >customs... is it usual for one person to address another by the last >name while being called the first name back? Just wondering. Two rather nasty ways of doing an English insult, I reckon. Honours even. In the 1950s male colleagues, even close friends, addressed each other by the surname only eg Tolkein would probably have called Lewis, Lewis, and Lewis would have called Tolkein, Tolkein. People with whom you were on more formal terms you would have called Professor Tolkein (jolly confusing if they happened to be called Lord Humphrey Vere de Vere, admittedly, but this is etiquette we're talking about here). People who you were extremely close to/had been at school with/ used to turn into animals with you could call by their school nickname eg "Hello, Tumnus, old chap" but not in a formal setting. First names could be used on the death bed, but even then it was more proper not to (remember Nelson?). By the time Snape and Lupin reached school in the 1970s , the older masters would have been using the same convention among themselves, the boys would have been addressing each other by first names or nicknames, but the masters would have addressed the boys by surname only , while the boys would probably still have been expected to address the older masters as "sir" , while the younger and trendier masters would be allowing " Mr x" or "Professor y", especially in arithmancy classes [by the way, I use the terms "master" and "boys" not because I haven't spotted that Hogwarts has been co-ed for about a thousand years, but because the rules for women are different and too complicated to explain here]. Therefore, when Snape addresses Lupin as Lupin it can either be read as (1) "we are close friends and colleagues but I happen to be locked into an old-fashioned mode of expression "or (2)"I loathe you so much I'm going to pretend we're both back at school, I have at least 20 years seniority on you, and regard you as equivalent to a first year kid or a poltergeist. " Guess which I think is intended? The Lupin riposte gallant in which he calls Snape Severus therefore can be read as (1)" I know you're behaving like an unpleasant old git, and I shall address you in the mode which would wind you up most if it really *were* 20 years ago, you *were* a teacher and I *were* a first year kid "or (2)" we are close friends and colleagues and you are sensitive enough to notice that I have always disliked my first name and preferred to be addressed by something less annoying". Guess which I think he is responding to? Susan From vderark at bccs.org Fri Jun 15 20:17:49 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:17:49 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks as Kneazle (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie) In-Reply-To: <021b01c0f5d6$005ee780$3911eda9@littlealex> Message-ID: <9gdqhd+7qcr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20949 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > Hello, > > Craig stated: > > > Crookshanks is a kneazle. See the HP school books. > > Haggridd objected: > > No, he isn't; I'll bet you a chocolate frog! > > I know Crookshanks is part Kneazle, according to either a JKR interview or > something... Alex is quite correct. JKR stated in an interview with Newsround that Crookshanks is part Kneazle. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon which has quite a nice Crookshanks page http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 20:21:23 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:21:23 -0000 Subject: Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie In-Reply-To: <9gdkg8+nrhe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gdqo3+tiue@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20950 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mediaphen at h... wrote: > > > > Crookshanks is a kneazle. See the HP school books. > > No, he isn't; I'll bet you a chocolate frog! I stand corrected - part-kneazle. ....Craig From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 15 20:45:58 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:45:58 -0000 Subject: Various Threads In-Reply-To: <20010615200701.41941.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gds66+vb26@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20951 Hello Everybody!!!! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly the Yarn Junkie wrote: > 6. Wizard Wheezes: I'm sure the twins used magic illegally to develop > Ton-Tongue Toffees and Canary Cremes. They didn't get in trouble > because A)if someone was monitoring magic use, there were no Muggles > nearby and any magic being done at The Burrow could be assumed to be > done by adults and B) no one told on them. If you read the Ministry > letter Harry received in CoS, it clearly states they had been > *informed* of a Hover Charm being used. Clearly, Dobby -- who has his > own brand of magic -- used a simple charm Harry could know and then > made sure the Ministry knew. > First off, let me just say that I feel nothing but pitty for that guy...Richard (?). It's people like him that sometimes make me cry, cus the world will sometimes not let me be who I am. Nuff said on that. On the point of #6, I don't think F and G would have to resort to anything illegal to set up a WW shop. Honeydukes had stuff along the same lines. I mean, F and G had a reputation for being a bit mischieveous, so I'm sure the others just chalked it up to being "another one of those things". Plus, little boys break stuff all the time. Doesn't suprise me that the mom didn't do anyhting about it. Hugs Jamieson From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 15 20:48:22 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:48:22 -0000 Subject: Contemporary relevant issues based childrens literature - and JKR, thank the Lord In-Reply-To: <000001c0f5d7$726b9200$0101010a@w98-1> Message-ID: <9gdsam+o47m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20952 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" wrote: > > Why bother, when in the wizarding world you can have really *interesting* > personal problems. I agree with Susan. There would be no point in having an out and out gay character. If they were in the book, it wouldn't be the main issue anyway. I don't think that the world of HP needs a gay character spelt out for us. We can assume, as we humans and Muggles do, that some of them are gay already. Just because nothings said doesn't mean that they're not there. Hugs Jamieson From JenniferABacker at cs.com Fri Jun 15 21:00:59 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:00:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What are the arguments against the hp books? Message-ID: <102.497f358.285bd18b@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20953 In a message dated 6/15/01 2:04:18 PM Central Daylight Time, blpurdom at yahoo.com writes: << Just a post to say that saying that all Christians believe anything is just naive. Just look in your local phone book to see how many different flavors of Christians there are. I think I've said before that some of the biggest Harry Potter fans I know are ministers and church employees (our minister did a fantastic children's sermon about boggarts, and had the entire congregation shouting, "Riddikulous!"). People who are against Harry Potter are against many things that actually induce people to think for themselves...That's what really sets them off. >> I agree, not all Christians are against it but I can see why some are. I first got hooked by reading it [in class] at a Christian school. My principal is a nun and is obsessed with it =) I may love werewolves <3 <3 but a big black dog will <3 <3 always have my heart <3 <3 Please join my weekly *NSYNC zine: Now & Forever Get cash the fun and easy way: RefRewards If you join these zines please put JenniferABacker referred ya! It'd mean a LOT:) Great variety zine: Animosity Learn about a great new singer: Official Gina Marie Zine Daily *NSYNC news & pics; short loading: 'nsync fantasy mad cow season - freebies behind the music - graphics From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 15 21:07:09 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:07:09 -0000 Subject: Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie In-Reply-To: <9gdkg8+nrhe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gdtdt+e0eg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20954 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mediaphen at h... wrote: > > > > Crookshanks is a kneazle. See the HP school books. > > > > ....Craig > > No, he isn't; I'll bet you a chocolate frog! > > Haggridd We're not going to start this all over again are we? ! I thought JKR had confirmed that Crookshanks was either half or part Kneazle, depending on how an interview was transcripted? I remember Amanda and Doreen (I think ?) debating this and deciding that it wasn't possible to hear exactly what she was saying - but that Crookshanks definitely has some kneazle blood in him. Catherine From andromache815 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 21:07:43 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:07:43 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPPING of Love and War References: <9gddai+qdo7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20955 So the question is, if bickering ruins romances (and it can), does it ruin friendships too (of course it can, but is it inevitable)? Those of you who think R/H will never fly as a long-term romance, do you predict a cooling in their friendship too? Amy Z I think they'll stay friends, but don't believe they'd work out as a couple. I don't believe constant war is a good thing. It's one thing to disagree civilly, but they seem to fuel each other's fires. The reason I think they would work out as friends, but not as a couple, is that once two people become an item, the expectations of each other tend to heighten, and emotions run higher. Or at least, that's what I notice in my own relationship. I expect more from my boyfriend than my regular friends, and I suspect he feels the same. But we do love each other a lot. R/H already fight a lot. It'd make things worse if they became a couple. Poor Harry would be stuck mediating. Vicky From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 21:41:09 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin/Dennis Crevey In-Reply-To: <20010615195923.28439.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010615214109.84373.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20956 --- Angela Boyko wrote: > > Colin did say that, but he didn't know if it was > true > or not. That's what I would like to know - can he do > it? > > Some people will spend hours theorizing the number > of > students at Hogwarts, I just want to know more about > wizard photography and painting. :-) > > Angela Later in the book Colin does show Harry a picture he has taken(again I don't have my book handy can someone find the quote please?) and it says s8omething to the effect of "Lockheart was pulling on what looked like Harry's arm since the rest of him refused to enter the picture--eventually the picture Lockheart gave up and collapsed panting against the little white frame" or something to that effect. So yes he did manage to get the picture to move (Even if the picture Harry didn't want to be in it) :D Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 22:06:54 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where did the Weasley kids go to school before Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: <9gclm6+rsu4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010615220654.36435.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20957 I think they were probably home schooled by there mother.. Melanie --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jun 15 22:52:19 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:52:19 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: <9gdkld+394k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ge3j3+675v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20958 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > I won't even dignify the racist and homophobic comments on this topic > with a real retort... > > I think the only real problem with a Harry/Cho relationship (not > race, not age) is the fact that he simply saw her from afar and was > smitten. He knows nothing about her, her personality, her likes and > dislikes, what kind of student she is, nothing. JKR doesn't even > report them having a conversation of more than 30 seconds' duration > before he asked her to the Yule Ball. He might as well have a crush > on a picture of a model in a magazine. > > OTOH, she seemed like she might have been inclined to accept his > invitation were it not for her already having accepted Cedric's. But > I'm guessing that that was for the same reason that a handful of > girls Harry didn't even know asked him out; he is Harry Potter, he is > one of the school champions, and wouldn't it be cool to go to the > ball with HIM and make all your friends jealous? > > Even if they ever "date" in the canon books, I don't see it going > anywhere, and once again, Harry would have to worry about the Forces > of Evil targetting her...He's just too nice to want that to happen. I agree with you about Harry's infatuation. However, I have a gut feeling that Cho and Cedric were a couple before the Yule Ball and maybe even before the Second Task. At the very least, there was some kind of mutual attraction between them. I think Cho was being sensitive to Harry when she declined his invitation. Milz From ebonyink at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 23:11:27 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:11:27 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPPING of Love and War Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20959 You know, I wasn't going to jump in... but since my summer vacation officially began today, and I'm taking my brand new first-ever laptop (!) on a test drive 'round the Internet... what the hey? Amy Z asked: >So the question is, >if bickering ruins romances (and it can), does it ruin friendships >too (of course it can, but is it inevitable)? Those of you who think >R/H will never fly as a long-term romance, do you predict a cooling in >their friendship too? Vicky answered: "I think they'll stay friends, but don't believe they'd work out as a couple. I don't believe constant war is a good thing. It's one thing to disagree civilly, but they seem to fuel each other's fires. The reason I think they would work out as friends, but not as a couple, is that once two people become an item, the expectations of each other tend to heighten, and emotions run higher. R/H already fight a lot. It'd make things worse if they became a couple. Poor Harry would be stuck mediating." Not if Ginny has anything to say about it. I agree with most of what Vicky said... but then again, we're riding on the same ship. I see R/H being good for a while, but I really don't think they'd spar a la Hepburn and Tracy forever. After a while, I see one or both of them losing interest. You see, after nearly a year of contemplation of the matter, I do think that it's not the bickering that bothers me most about R/H. It's their personalities. Ron at this point in canon has many merits as a character, but you must admit that he is needy. Perhaps he'll grow out of this. My RL experiences with this personality type indicate to me otherwise... we all carry ghosts of childhood along with us, however deep they're buried. I think that Hermione has shown some nurturing tendencies, but after a while, I really do believe she'd feel drained... and Ron would feel dissatisfied with the amount of effort she was putting into their relationship. There are girls whose every waking thought is centered on their significant other. After the first flush of infatuation with Ron (although I'm as lost as Jim Ferer is on this point--if *someone* could show me conclusive evidence of Hermione---->Ron in canon and characterization, I'd consider jumping ship), he'd have to share her with her other interests. All the Rons I've ever known in real life are nice enough people, but they like not only to be their significant other's first priority, but the vast majority of it. I've never seen it work, which is why it doesn't ring true to me whenever I read it... and why what I saw in GoF bothered me so much. R/H may be inevitable in canon. No non-R/H shipper disputes that. But the only way I can see R/H lasting for any significant amount of time is if fundamental aspects of their personalities change. But then, Ron wouldn't be Ron, and Hermione wouldn't be Hermione... which is why the "we dated... it didn't work out" scenario Cassie presents in her Draco Dormiens/Draco Sinister fanfic series is so plausible that even R/Hers don't complain about it. Now, for friendship. I agree with C. S. Lewis (*must* do the Four Loves essay-post this summer... :::makes mental note to self:::) Friendship is based on common ground... shared interests. (QUESTION: What is the basis of Ron and Hermione's friendship? No, not how it began... we know about the troll. No, not just because they are and that's all there is to it. ;-) I'm really trying to understand other PoVs here.) As long as Ron and Hermione have things in common, they'll remain friends. I do think that an unsuccessful romantic relationship involving any of the Three could tarnish their friendship, depending on the length and seriousness of it. This is the thing I like *least* about being a shipper... when all is said and done, I'd much rather have the friendship and everyone looking for outside companionship... but then I can't be a no-shipper, because if Harry, Ron, and Hermione all find other people, their friendship will still suffer... you can't share all your secrets with your two best friends all the time, and expect your sig other to understand why you're keeping all this stuff from them. What's that quote from Stephen King? "The best friends I ever had, I had at twelve years old?" After the latency period ends, everything gets complicated... which is perhaps why JKR has put off letting the characters hit puberty for so long. It's enough to make any decent Harry Potter fan feel like Peter Pan. --Ebony <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< Ebony AKA AngieJ ebonyink at hotmail.com Come join us in Paradise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise Visit Schnoogle.com: http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rucham78 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 23:58:26 2001 From: rucham78 at yahoo.com (rucham78 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:58:26 -0000 Subject: , quiz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ge7f2+n3fe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20960 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MorganaH3947 at a... wrote: > > I got Albus Dumbldore followed by Fred/George Weasley. > >? Now there's a strange combination! > > Heh heh. I got Ronald Weasley followed by Draco Malfoy. Now what does this > say about me, eh? Do I seem to have a little bit of a temper? > > --Morgan, who is sorry this is OT > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] HI [Delurking after a loooong time] Maybe this is slightly OT,but could you tell me where to find the selectsmart Quiz? To get back to the ship, I do agree with all those who say that we wouldnt see Harry find the love of his life by the end of book 7. I seem to remember JK saying in a chat that Harry will push his everyone, and specifically Ron and Hermione away as things start to get grimmer. And yes, I see Harry sacrificing his love life, so that the girl is not in danger. I have a question though. In CoS, after Harry rescues Ginny, she moans about going back to school and says how she is going to be expelled and says that she has looked forward to going to Hogwarts ever since Bill started there. I have an impression that Bill started school before she was born. Any thoughts? Best, Rucha From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 00:25:16 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:25:16 -0400 Subject: ADMIN: How to fight a troll Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20961 Amy Elf tremblingly steps into the vacated DADA position, picks up a piece of chalk, and says: There are three simple steps to fighting a troll, class. However, they require will power and presence of mind. 1. Ignore it 2. Ignore it 3. Ignore it. Many witches and wizards find it helpful to take several deep breaths and chant the catchy little incantation, "Bigots feed on hate like junkies feed on drugs. Without it they shrivel like salted slugs." (This works well with pompoms, by the way. Try it out at your next match against Slytherin!) Your magical moderators may take a few hours to notice the presence of a troll and perform the Banning Charm. In the meantime, please do not feed the troll. Amy Z hastily offering her resignation before the DADA jinx can catch up with her _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From devika261 at aol.com Sat Jun 16 00:44:12 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:44:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Snape thoughts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20962 In a message dated 6/15/01 9:22:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JamiDeise at aol.com writes: > I agree that Snape is pretty immature, but I think that if Dumbledore dies > (which I believe is inevitable), it'll force Snape to grow up. It occurred > to > me that in three out of the four books published so far, Dumbledore > literally > saves Harry's life -- in PS/SS, by pulling him off of Quirrell, in CoS > through Fawkes, and in GoF by keeping Barty Jr. from killing Harry. And in > PoA, Buckbeak and Black would have been toast without Dumbledore I think that Dumbledore's death will make everyone grow up. I do believe that he will die (or be somehow incapacitated), if not in book 5 then in book 6. It's often been stated in the books that Harry feels safe wherever Dumbledore is, that he thinks that Dumbledore can make everything all right, etc. I think that's the reason why Dumbledore has to die. No one will want him to, but I can imagine a deathbed scene where Dumbledore tells Harry and all the others that they must now learn to depend on themselves and that they have the power to defeat Dumbledore without him. If that happens, I'm sure it will be a scene where I'll need my box of tissues, but I think it will be a necessary part of Harry's (and Snape's, and many of the other characters') developments. Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From counterfeitlove at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 00:50:53 2001 From: counterfeitlove at yahoo.com (Sarah Rose) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hogwart's Motto, help! Message-ID: <20010616005053.40197.qmail@web13106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20963 I am aware of the fact that Hogwart's motto is "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus" which means Never Trust a Sleeping Dragon (or something to that extent. I've been racking my brain and rereading all my HP books, but for the life of me I cannot find where it's originally stated. I must be skipping over it's placement. Could somebody please point me to where it's orginally stated, book and chapter. Thanks soo much! Sarah __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 16 00:55:55 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 00:55:55 -0000 Subject: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <20010616005053.40197.qmail@web13106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9geaqr+9cun@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20964 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sarah Rose wrote: > I am aware of the fact that Hogwart's motto is "Draco > dormiens nunquam titillandus" which means Never Trust > a Sleeping Dragon (or something to that extent. I've > been racking my brain and rereading all my HP books, > but for the life of me I cannot find where it's > originally stated. I must be skipping over it's > placement. Could somebody please point me to where > it's orginally stated, book and chapter. Thanks soo > much! > > Sarah > >From my recolection, it's not mentioned anywhere in the book. They mention the motto, but not what it means. Too bad none of us speak Latin! Hugs Jamieson From litalex at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 01:23:17 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:23:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwart's Motto, help! References: <20010616005053.40197.qmail@web13106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <040c01c0f602$eced0e20$3911eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20965 Hello, > I am aware of the fact that Hogwart's motto is "Draco > dormiens nunquam titillandus" which means Never Trust No, it's "Never tickle a sleeping dragon." But alas, I don't know where it was stated originally. little Alex From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 01:16:37 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:16:37 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho is wrong In-Reply-To: <9gdkld+394k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gec1l+i2jl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20966 blpurdom:"I think the only real problem with a Harry/Cho relationship (not race, not age) is the fact that he simply saw her from afar and was smitten. He knows nothing about her, her personality, her likes and dislikes, what kind of student she is, nothing. JKR doesn't even report them having a conversation of more than 30 seconds' duration before he asked her to the Yule Ball." We have to believe that Harry knows more about Cho than JKR has revealed to us. You said it: JKR doesn't report them having any kind of extended conversation. But that doesn't mean they didn't have enough snippets to have at least some interest. If the books reported everything that went on in Harr's life, they'd be thousands of pages and unreadable. I don't think it's possible to say Harry/Cho wouldn't go anywhere, precisely because we don't know much about her. I think you have to be neutral. From litalex at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 01:25:48 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:25:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwart's Motto, help! References: <9geaqr+9cun@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <042001c0f603$468f38e0$3911eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20967 Hello, > mention the motto, but not what it means. Too bad none of us speak > Latin! AFAIK, there are a number of us here who can...read Latin. Speak is another topic. So, you *are* right. None of us really speaks Latin. little Alex From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Sat Jun 16 01:19:10 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:19:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwart's Motto, help! Message-ID: <112.5dc464.285c0e0e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20968 In a message dated 6/15/01 9:15:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, litalex at yahoo.com writes: << > I am aware of the fact that Hogwart's motto is "Draco > dormiens nunquam titillandus" which means Never Trust No, it's "Never tickle a sleeping dragon." But alas, I don't know where it was stated originally. >> It's actually on one of the pre-story pages in the british editions - at least, before the Warner Bros t shirts came out, that was the first place I'd seen it. Of course, sometimes, I want to think it means, Never tickle Draco while he's sleeping, which could be an admonition for a few characters I can think of...depending on the fanfic, of course. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Jun 16 02:18:27 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:18:27 -0700 Subject: Friendship - Bill - Motto Message-ID: <3B2AC1F2.27C4B790@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 20969 Ebony wrote; > Friendship is based on common ground... shared interests. > (QUESTION: What is the basis of Ron and Hermione's > friendship? No, not how it began... we know about the troll. > No, not just because they are and that's all there is to it. ;-) > I'm really trying to understand other PoVs here.) As long as > Ron and Hermione have things in common, they'll remain friends. Shared interests help a great deal, but I don't believe they are the most central thing in friendship. There are people who have the same interests as me whom I hate and strive to avoid. I think friendship probably starts with enjoying each other's company (which would be why Christopher Lasch, in the only one of his books that I ever read (it was LOATHSOME) condemned friendship as being a form of 'narcissism', as opposed to hanging out with and helping relatives or neighbors whom detest but hang out with and help out of duty -- talking about 'enjoyment' DOES make it sound like hedonism). And, y'know, my friend is such a good talker that she makes her boring interests (that I don't share) sound interesting when she tells me about them, and she feels the same about me. So what makes people enjoy each other's company? I suppose that clever, verbal, bookish people tend to like other clever, verbal, bookish people, because you can talk to them without having to all the time stop and explain everything. And people tend to like people who understand their feelings: it's NICE to have a friend who hears someone insult me and understands why it is an insult that bothers me and tries in effective ways to get me to calm down, rather that a friend who can't understand why I didn't take it as a compliment. But, y'know, there has to be something about respecting each other's values... Rucha wrote: > In CoS, after Harry rescues Ginny, she moans about going back > to school and says how she is going to be expelled and says that > she has looked forward to going to Hogwarts ever since Bill > started there. I have an impression that Bill started school > before she was born. Any thoughts? My thought is that JKR made a *typo* and wrote 'since Bill started at Hogwarts' when she meant to write 'since Percy started at Hogwarts'. Amy, what an excellent DADA lesson! Probably where the Hogwarts motto was first published was as part of the Hogwarts coat of arms, which is on the frontispiece of the UK editions. -- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From aiz24 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 02:31:21 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 02:31:21 -0000 Subject: Grindel - R&S anger - Letters - SS liking AD - Ginny crush - R/H friendship Message-ID: <9gegdq+pe40@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20970 David wrote: >My personal favourite theory is that Defeat The Dark Wizard >Grindelwald is a popular contest run annually by the Daily Prophet >(who sponsor the Chocolate Frog cards). Dumbledore won in 1945 and >it has nothing more to do with anything in the story. LSHIGAPIMS! (Laughed So Hard I Got A Pain In My Side) David also wrote: >Lupin's behaviour to Snape is one of the (many) minor puzzles of >PoA: he goes out of his way to praise Snape to Harry (compare >Hagrid's embarrasment in PS/SS and amusement in GOF) and seems not to >have the intense loathing that Sirius has. Either Lupin has accepted >his experiences at Hogwarts better than Sirius has, or their >experiences of Snape were different in the first place. Their initial experiences with Snape may have been different, and their subsequent experiences certainly have been (Lupin's clearly had a tough 15 years, but nothing remotely as tough as Azkaban--great place to stew about old grudges), but more than these things, I'm inclined to put it down to basic personality differences. Lupin is just a milder, gentler person than Sirius generally, and I think his approach to someone who's trying to make life hard for him is to be polite and friendly, not put up his dukes. He isn't a saint (he's not above making a joke at Snape's expense, e.g.); he's just trying to make a bad situation easier for himself. Ever work with a colleague who didn't want you to be hired and hates you? Sirius probably would have challenged Snape to a duel by day two. That just isn't Lupin's way of doing things; it shows in the simplest things, like his defusing Malfoy with "Is there a problem?" instead of "You! Boy! Get in that castle and stop making trouble!" (That would be Snape's approach. I'm not sure what Sirius's would be--Sirius as disciplinarian evokes Moodylike images of turning students into newts. That's the Dursleys' fantasy of how he'd deal with =them=, and we know he's really good at Transfiguration...) This personality difference between Remus and Sirius might be attributed to Azkaban or it might always have been there. Emma wrote: >One has to wonder what dear Remus was thinking when all of this went >down. I could analyze our favorite werewolf 'til doomsday too, so I'll take this opportunity. I think survivor guilt applies to Remus too. He lost all of them in the space of two days--James and Lily, Peter, Sirius, and for all intents and purposes Harry, assuming he cared about keeping that connection--all because he hadn't seen clearly enough to realize Sirius was a DE. That must really be torturing him all those years, especially since he could go over and over all he knew about Sirius and still not see what he missed, since there was nothing to see. Magda wrote: >Sirius (still clueless after twenty years) Hark, I hear a filk. "I met my old schoolmate on the street last night . . . " I think you're a little hard on Sirius, but I'm tired and someone else will no doubt go to bat for him. I'd just say that he says the "he deserved it" under extreme stress and that no one can be fairly expected to come out of Azkaban without bitterness and vindictiveness. Someone wrote (sorry): > Would it have come on my 11th birthday (the 16th of October) and then > I would wait until September the next year before I went to Hogwarts. > Or would the letter arrive in the summer just before September. Please > tell me what you think, this one kept me up last night Rachel wrote: >I think actually it would arrive in the July AFTER your eleventh birthday. That seems like it would introduce a very long delay, though. The magic quill knows exactly when you are born, which allows McGonagall to write to people who aren't 11 when the owls go out but will be before September 1--Harry, for example. Why not do this with people born later still than Harry? If the cutoff date is January 1, as it is in many US schools (it varies from town to town), then Harry wouldn't be particularly young--he'd be in about the middle of his schoolmates--and owls would have to go out to people who aren't going to be 11 until well into their first year. No matter how you manage a system, there will always be some students in a grade who are almost a year older than some other students. Simple math. Maybe the quill (or whatever decides when to send the owls) measures emotional and magical readiness, too, like parents who can choose to make their kids on the young or old side for their grade? Good luck with your NEWTs. Lilith wrote: >If Albus got a couple of Viagra boxes somewhere I see no >actual resons to why they couldn't have a cosy time together... Who needs Viagra when he has Skelegro? (This sick little thought is not original with me, drat it. See msg. #20371 for the genius of Robert Carnegie.) Re: whether Snape likes (rather than loves and/or trusts) Dumbledore, I agree that Snape probably hates being beholden to anyone, but I think there are other reasons he might not "like" Dumbledore. He doesn't share his sense of humor; he disagrees with his methods of discipline; I doubt he thinks it appropriate to choose something as trivial as sweets for the password to someplace as important as the Hogwarts Headmaster's Office. But you can greatly admire, love, trust, respect, etc. someone whom you don't particularly like, IMO. It might go the other way, too; Snape is not very likeable, even by someone as easygoing as Dumbledore, but he commands great respect and admiration from his colleagues, including Dumbledore. Barbara wrote: >I think the only real problem with a Harry/Cho relationship (not >race, not age) is the fact that he simply saw her from afar and was >smitten. Ebony wrote: >What's wrong with that? Ginny saw Harry from afar and was smitten--yet >people defend her crush all the time. You are right on about the date-and-see-if-you're-suited approach, but I just want to defend Ginny defenders here by pointing out that Ginny's crush may have started from afar, but she and Harry aren't afar any more. They really know each other, if not very well, then way better than Harry and Cho do. Common room time, visits to the Burrow, meals . . . we see enough of these to know Harry and Ginny have had some actual conversations, whereas we've seen no interactions between Cho and Harry whatsoever besides one Quidditch match and one picking up of a quill. Ebony wrote later: >QUESTION: What is the basis of Ron and Hermione's friendship? What is the basis of Ron and Harry's? I'm not trying to be difficult. I just don't see how we see more of the one than the other. As I said earlier, the friendship among R, H, and H is something we all accept--and sure enough, here's someone to say "I don't!" (I know that isn't exactly what you're saying, Ebony.) I agree that friendship is based largely on common interests. It's also based on meshing (not necessarily similar) personalities. When you go to school together and live together and spend all your time with the same group of people, you have plenty to talk about without sharing any outside interests at all, as long as you have the right personalities for talking to each other about all those shared experiences. But anyway, I don't know what interests Ron and Hermione have in common; I don't know what interests Ron and Harry have in common (Quidditch will only take you so far); and I don't know what interests Harry and Hermione have in common. I believe nevertheless that they have plenty because I see the rapport between them. This writing business is positively magical. How =does= JKR make it so obvious to me that these three are such good friends? Re: the outside romantic relationships tarnishing the friendship, despair not. People do remain very close to old friends right through their also-close marriages. It can be done. Amy Z -------------------------------------------------------- "I'm =not= going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban -------------------------------------------------------- From nosillaps13 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 02:31:35 2001 From: nosillaps13 at yahoo.com (Allison ) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 02:31:35 -0000 Subject: SHIPPING of Love and War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gege7+kn16@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20971 Alright, I'm going to throw in my two cents worth (though you're getting overcharged)... Ebony/AngieJ said: > I see R/H being good for a while, but I really don't think they'd spar a la > Hepburn and Tracy forever. After a while, I see one or both of them losing > interest. But they don't fight all the time. They do fight a lot, but it's really only been a serious fight that didn't resolve itself quickly once, over Scabbers. But most of their fights are really pretty minor. > > You see, after nearly a year of contemplation of the matter, I do think that > it's not the bickering that bothers me most about R/H. It's their > personalities. > > Ron at this point in canon has many merits as a character, but you must > admit that he is needy. Perhaps he'll grow out of this. My RL experiences > with this personality type indicate to me otherwise... we all carry ghosts > of childhood along with us, however deep they're buried. True, Ron can be a bit needy. But Ron is a teenage boy. As a teenage girl, I'm going to offer my expert opinion that ALL teenage boys are needy. He may not grow out of it completely, but it should lessen with time. All teenagers are somewhat insecure, and this tends to lead to neediness. I think Ron will get better as he gets older. > > I think that Hermione has shown some nurturing tendencies, but after a > while, I really do believe she'd feel drained... and Ron would feel > dissatisfied with the amount of effort she was putting into their > relationship. There are girls whose every waking thought is centered on > their significant other. After the first flush of infatuation with Ron > (although I'm as lost as Jim Ferer is on this point--if *someone* could show > me conclusive evidence of Hermione---->Ron in canon and characterization, > I'd consider jumping ship), he'd have to share her with her other interests. The only thing I have for Hermione being interested in Ron is in GoF (can't quite remember where) she tells Ron if he wanted to go to the ball with her, he should have asked her first, instead of waiting until the last minute. Which suggests to me that if he had asked her earlier, she would have said yes. > > Now, for friendship. > > I agree with C. S. Lewis (*must* do the Four Loves essay-post this summer... > :::makes mental note to self:::) Friendship is based on common ground... > shared interests. (QUESTION: What is the basis of Ron and Hermione's > friendship? No, not how it began... we know about the troll. No, not just > because they are and that's all there is to it. ;-) I'm really trying to > understand other PoVs here.) As long as Ron and Hermione have things in > common, they'll remain friends. Now, I'm an R/Her, but I think it could work because in some ways, they are opposites, but in others, they're very much alike. Both lose their temper at times (Ron more then Hermione of course) - Hermione slapped Malfoy, and yelled at Ron about the Yule Ball. And both have a disadvantage at school: Hermione is Muggle-born, Ron's family is very poor. And they're united by the fact that they would die for Harry. Ron says "You'll have to kill all three of us" in PoA, and you don't hear Hermione objecting. > > I do think that an unsuccessful romantic relationship involving any of the > Three could tarnish their friendship, depending on the length and > seriousness of it. This is the thing I like *least* about being a > shipper... when all is said and done, I'd much rather have the friendship > and everyone looking for outside companionship... but then I can't be a > no-shipper, because if Harry, Ron, and Hermione all find other people, their > friendship will still suffer... you can't share all your secrets with your > two best friends all the time, and expect your sig other to understand why > you're keeping all this stuff from them. *sigh* You're right; a romantic relationship would hurt their friendship. Even one that worked out. Because if R/H works out, that makes Harry no longer their main common point, and it would be awkward with the three to be together, because they're not all doing everything together anymore. > > What's that quote from Stephen King? "The best friends I ever had, I had at > twelve years old?" After the latency period ends, everything gets > complicated... which is perhaps why JKR has put off letting the characters > hit puberty for so long. > > It's enough to make any decent Harry Potter fan feel like Peter Pan. Amen to that. - Allison From toomanyideas at aol.com Sat Jun 16 02:47:59 2001 From: toomanyideas at aol.com (toomanyideas at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 02:47:59 -0000 Subject: Contemporary relevant issues based childrens literature - and JKR, thank the Lord In-Reply-To: <9gdsam+o47m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gehcv+bb34@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20972 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" wrote:> > > I agree with Susan. There would be no point in having an out and out > gay character. If they were in the book, it wouldn't be the main issue > anyway. > Personally, I have just always imagined that Filch is probably gay--this only adds to the lonliness and isolation from society that he feels at Hogwarts. But as Jamieson implied, that is not the main issue for him. His is squib shame. From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 02:53:28 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma Moniz) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 02:53:28 -0000 Subject: SHIPPING of Love and War In-Reply-To: <9gege7+kn16@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gehn8+bl3p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20973 > Ebony/AngieJ said: > > You see, after nearly a year of contemplation of the matter, I do think that it's not the bickering that bothers me most about R/H. It's their personalities. Ron at this point in canon has many merits as a character, but you must admit that he is needy. Perhaps he'll grow out of this. My RL experiences with this personality type indicate to me otherwise... we all carry ghosts of childhood along with us, however deep they're buried. And Allison replied: > True, Ron can be a bit needy. But Ron is a teenage boy. As a teenage girl, I'm going to offer my expert opinion that ALL teenage boys are needy. He may not grow out of it completely, but it should lessen with time. All teenagers are somewhat insecure, and this tends to lead to neediness. I think Ron will get better as he gets older. Now, my two bits: I have issues with Ron. When we were reading Harry Potter together, my psycho ex always identified with Ron, the needy personality type. He never understood why Hermione wasn't more into him, why she wasn't more attentive to him. And now, in retrospect, I see a lot of my ex's neediness in Ron. He has some bluster, but really no deeply- ingrained self-confidence to carry him through the rough spots. He's defined by his family more than by his own actions. And he can't quite seem to go it alone, at least not to me. This is what makes me really dread to see Hermione and Ron end up together. Ron is clingy, yet oblivious. I think he would wear down Hermione, much like my ex wore me down over the years. And I want to see our fiesty Hermione do better for herself than get involved in a relationship with an emotionally needy individual. Now I shall patiently wait for all the Ron fans and the sailors on the Good Ship Hr/R to come out of the woodwork and eat me alive...I taste better with honey mustard, mind... ~Emma From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 02:58:53 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: How to fight a troll In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010616025853.47299.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20974 Thank you Amy Elf! This has been a bad few weeks of many trolls! I love this group and all the many wonderfully different people who are it's members and I will keep on that chany wagon when bumbles along! Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts --- Amy Z wrote: > Amy Elf tremblingly steps into the vacated DADA > position, picks up a piece > of chalk, and says: > > There are three simple steps to fighting a troll, > class. However, they > require will power and presence of mind. > > 1. Ignore it > 2. Ignore it > 3. Ignore it. > > Many witches and wizards find it helpful to take > several deep breaths and > chant the catchy little incantation, > > "Bigots feed on hate like junkies feed on drugs. > Without it they shrivel like salted slugs." > > (This works well with pompoms, by the way. Try it > out at your next match > against Slytherin!) > > Your magical moderators may take a few hours to > notice the presence of a > troll and perform the Banning Charm. In the > meantime, please do not feed > the troll. > > Amy Z > hastily offering her resignation before the DADA > jinx can catch up with her > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From toomanyideas at aol.com Sat Jun 16 03:11:29 2001 From: toomanyideas at aol.com (toomanyideas at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 03:11:29 -0000 Subject: Hitler's Dream and The Malfoys Message-ID: <9geip1+e3mv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20975 Hi. I am new to the boards, so I realize that my point may have already been made... That said, IMHO, I absolutely do NOT think the Malfoy paleness gene has anything to do with vampires! I think it one of the many ways that JKR draws parallels to the Nazi's and the Death's Eaters. When I see the Malfoys, I imagine that they fit Hitlers vision of a so-called Aryan race to a tee. -Debi (who just did her bathroom over in Hogwarts d From lj2d30 at gateway.net Sat Jun 16 03:26:46 2001 From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 03:26:46 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age In-Reply-To: <9g6otq+7tv8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gejlm+tjpl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20976 Steve Vander Ark wrote: Hermione was born on September 19th. I believe that she was born in 1980 as well and that she turned 11 a couple of weeks after she started at Hogwarts, but others feel that the cutoff is September 1 so she must have been born in 1979. I agree with Steve and think that Hermione is one of the younger kids in her year. I base this solely on the fact that my own birthday is September 18th and I was always a bit younger than the rest of the kids in my class. Since this is the wizarding world we are speculating about, who's to say that Muggle age cutoff dates are used at all? My pet theory is that every child who turns 11 in that year (ie 1991) goes on to Hogwarts even if his or her birthday is in November. Meaning, of course, that there may be a few 10 year olds at school in the first half of the school year. Dumbledore also alludes to the fact that Hermione is the same age as Harry and Ron in PoA: "--and the word of two thirteen year old wizards will not convince anybody." (PoA Chapter 21, p. 392, US ed) That's my position and I'm sticking to it... Trina From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 16 03:47:20 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 03:47:20 -0000 Subject: SHIPPING of Love and War In-Reply-To: <9gehn8+bl3p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9geks8+fsve@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20977 Hmmm...Great comments on this subject. I'm not really sure where to start. So I'll begin with... Emma wrote: Allison replied: "True, Ron can be a bit needy. But Ron is a teenage boy. As a teenage girl, I'm going to offer my expert opinion that ALL teenage boys are needy. He may not grow out of it completely, but it should lessen with time. All teenagers are somewhat insecure, and this tends to lead to neediness. I think Ron will get better as he gets older." --I basically agree. As a teenage boy I'm going to offer the "expert" opinion that not *all of us* are *that* needy. I'm certainly needy to a certain extent, but I'm not that much like Ron, far more Harry or Hermione. The thing is that Harry and Hermione are needy too. Their neediness does not come across in the same way, but it's still there. Ron is obviously insecure, but not much less so than Harry or Hermione. (I'm not going to go into a long dissertation on the fact, but Harry has issues with trust and Hermione's studying is IMHO a sign of insecurity. At least I think my own studying habits often reflect as such.) I agree that all teenagers are to a certain extent insecure. At this age we don't even know *who* we really are. Insecurity, at least sometimes, is a given. Emma wrote: "I have issues with Ron. When we were reading Harry Potter together, my psycho ex always identified with Ron, the needy personality type. He never understood why Hermione wasn't more into him, why she wasn't more attentive to him. And now, in retrospect, I see a lot of my ex's neediness in Ron. He has some bluster, but really no deeply- ingrained self-confidence to carry him through the rough spots. He's defined by his family more than by his own actions. And he can't quite seem to go it alone, at least not to me. This is what makes me really dread to see Hermione and Ron end up together. Ron is clingy, yet oblivious. I think he would wear down Hermione, much like my ex wore me down over the years. And I want to see our fiesty Hermione do better for herself than get involved in a relationship with an emotionally needy individual." --We all agree Ron's needy (see above), but what does he need? Hermione may well romantically love Ron in the future, but she is a very independent person. IMO Ron could never be her whole life, a part of it yes, but not the centre of her universe. They both need validation, but I'm not sure Hermione could give Ron what he needs, at least what I think he will need based on his needs at *this* point in his life. I also don't see Ron as the type to support Hermione in her accomplishments (of which she is bound to have many) without ever feeling overshadowed by them. If a Ron/Hermione marriage were to happen I see it being somewhat like Ebony's TiP (wonderful story by the way!). However in my universe, post-canon R/H date, maybe even get engaged, and then realise that their fights aren't funny, and that while they made good friends they could never be husband and wife. (That of course is just IMHO!) Amy wrote: "You are right on about the date-and-see-if-you're-suited approach, but I just want to defend Ginny defenders here by pointing out that Ginny's crush may have started from afar, but she and Harry aren't afar any more. They really know each other, if not very well, then way better than Harry and Cho do. Common room time, visits to the Burrow, meals . . . we see enough of these to know Harry and Ginny have had some actual conversations, whereas we've seen no interactions between Cho and Harry whatsoever besides one Quidditch match and one picking up of a quill." --I've said before that I dislike Ginny, but much more so because I don't feel like we know her than because what we *do* know of her I don't like. (Does that make sense?) I think that it's possible that one day post-canon Harry and Ginny could be involved. In canon I tend to lean toward no-ship-Harry. (Of course Fanon "fashion conscious" Ginny seems to belong with sexy reformed Draco in leather pants, but I digress...) :-) Ebony wrote later: "QUESTION: What is the basis of Ron and Hermione's friendship?" Amy extended this: "What is the basis of Ron and Harry's? I'm not trying to be difficult. I just don't see how we see more of the one than the other. As I said earlier, the friendship among R, H, and H is something we all accept--and sure enough, here's someone to say "I don't!" (I know that isn't exactly what you're saying, Ebony.)I agree that friendship is based largely on common interests. It's also based on meshing (not necessarily similar) personalities." --I don't think we do. Some people of course may argue the other point though. While I think that similar and common interests can certainly build a relationship/friendship I don't think they are the basis of it. Being friends has to do with connecting with other people. One way to do that is with common interests, but once a person becomes friends with someone their experiences together are far more "binding" than their common interests. Though those experiences are likely to be about shared interest. Argh! I'm not sure *what* I'm trying to say. Amy wrote: "When you go to school together and live together and spend all your time with the same group of people, you have plenty to talk about without sharing any outside interests at all, as long as you have the right personalities for talking to each other about all those shared experiences." --This is what I was trying to say in the above paragraph, only less eloquently. Common interest can be a basis for a friendship, but that alone can't sustain it. Personality is important, too. Amy again: "How =does= JKR make it so obvious to me that these three are such good friends?" --I'm not really sure, but she does it effectively. We know they are friends because we see them as friends and we understand their friendship on some level? Again, I'm not really sure. Ebony wrote: "What's that quote from Stephen King? "The best friends I ever had, I had at twelve years old?" After the latency period ends, everything gets complicated... which is perhaps why JKR has put off letting the characters hit puberty for so long." --Isn't this the truth! I could share some stories, but I won't...I'm getting OT as it is. :-) I just hope this doesn't happen to Harry and Ron and Hermione. I want to believe Amy that they can still be friends... Scott Now humming "Can We Still Be Friends" From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 16 04:37:37 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 04:37:37 -0000 Subject: Goin' Out With Viktor (an R/H filk) Message-ID: <9genqh+i0tn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20978 Goin' Out With Viktor (GoF, Ch. 23) (To the tune of Proud Mary) Dedicated to all R/H Shippers THE SCENE: Before the Great Hall on the night of the Yule Ball. Enter HERMIONE, in ordinary apparel HERMIONE (spoken) They say fourth-years should take nice and easy But you see, I never ever do nothin' nice and easy. I always do it nice and Gryff .! (HERMIONE disappears behind a column and re-emerges dazzlingly altered) (music) Got my front teeth shrunk by Pomfrey Fixin' up my hair so it's shiny and fine What a great sensation, a Transfiguration Of a bookworm ready to start butterflyin' This year I ain't time-turnin' Ron's ears will soon be burnin' Cause I'm goin' goin' goin' out with Viktor Turned a lot of heads on Prom night Parkinson was gaping in sheer jealousy But I don't need magic just to be bewitchin' `Cause I'm knowin' how to charm these fellas, see? When I'm at the Yule Ball Ron Weasley, I know you'll squall When I'm goin' goin' goin' out with Viktor Viktor is a star of Quidditch He can show ya how to do a Wronski Feint He comes from that area that they call Bulgaria And when he invites me home, hear Ron's complaints Ronnie's got his little Krum doll But Viktor's really now got some doll (Enter VIKTOR KRUM) KRUM `Cause I am goin' goin' out vith Herm-own-ninny HERMIONE & KRUM Goin' goin' goin' out with/vith Viktor/Granger Goin' goin' goin' out with/vith Viktor/Granger Goin' goin' goin' out with/vith Viktor/Granger (Exit, arm and arm, to the Great Hall) - CMC From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 16 05:39:36 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 05:39:36 -0000 Subject: Hitler's Dream and The Malfoys In-Reply-To: <9geip1+e3mv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gereo+62ha@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20979 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., toomanyideas at a... wrote: > Hi. I am new to the boards, so I realize that my point may have > already been made... > > That said, IMHO, I absolutely do NOT think the Malfoy paleness gene > has anything to do with vampires! I think it one of the many ways > that JKR draws parallels to the Nazi's and the Death's Eaters. When I > see the Malfoys, I imagine that they fit Hitlers vision of a so- called > Aryan race to a tee. > The Munich Post, a stalwart anti-nazi newspaper through the 20s and early 30s, mocked the Aryan ideal as "thin like Goering, tall like Goebbels, blond like Hitler." (the JKR parallel is Slytherin's hatred of mudbloods, whilst their Dark champion is 50% Muggle) - CMC From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 05:40:00 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks WAS( Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie) In-Reply-To: <9gdtdt+e0eg@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010616054000.5131.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20980 --- catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mediaphen at h... wrote: > > > > > > Crookshanks is a kneazle. See the HP school > books. > > > > > > ....Craig > > > > No, he isn't; I'll bet you a chocolate frog! > > > > Haggridd > > We're not going to start this all over again are we? > ! I thought > JKR had confirmed that Crookshanks was either half > or part Kneazle, > depending on how an interview was transcripted? I > remember Amanda > and Doreen (I think ?) debating this and deciding > that it wasn't > possible to hear exactly what she was saying - but > that Crookshanks > definitely has some kneazle blood in him. > > Catherine > > I listened very carefully several times and JKR definately says that Crookshanks is half kneazle. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 05:57:34 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny and Bill at Hogwarts WAS(quiz) In-Reply-To: <9ge7f2+n3fe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010616055734.6704.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20981 --- rucham78 at yahoo.com wrote: > I have a question though. > In CoS, after Harry rescues Ginny, she moans about > going back to > school and says how she is going to be expelled and > says that she has > looked forward to going to Hogwarts ever since Bill > started there. I > have an impression that Bill started school before > she was born. Any > thoughts? > Best, > Rucha > > I'm working on a piece of fan fiction at the moment which was prompted by Ron's comment to Harry "Well you'd be afraid of spider too if you were holding your teddy bear and suddenly it had too many legs" For this I had to figure out the ages of all the Weasley siblings. According to my calculations(if I didn't do them wrong that is) Ginny was aprox. 2-7 when Bill went to Hogwarts. Hope that helps. Danette PS For the quiz go to the message archive if you look through the messages from June 13 and 14 with subject Quiz and quiz you will find one that has the link. Good luck ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sat Jun 16 08:09:01 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:09:01 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: Please read this (warning: contains hairnet, some people may choke) Message-ID: <00b201c0f63b$9ae86a00$b63670c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 20982 Hi everyone, Forgive me for wheeling out this much-loved Broken Record spell once again, but it's high time for some hairnetiquette: [Flying Ford Anglia raises his wand, points it at the innocent and highly individual faces and shouts "Repetitious!"] OT TOPICS OT topics, or threads, once they become OT, should be posted to our OT Chatter list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter). The OT list was created to help keep control of the message volume on the main list, so if you want to discuss the price of eggs, please don't do it on the main list (no one has discussed the price of eggs, before you all start looking - this was just a serving suggestion). YOU HAVE NEW MESSAGES ***"They could hear all the letters streaming into the room, bouncing off the walls and floor"*** There are a number of other points in our Netiquette Tips file aimed at keeping the flow of messages down to a mildly raging torrent instead of something akin to Niagara Falls: - One line posts are discouraged. If you have several short things to say, consider combining them into a single post, noting the various subjects in the header; - Consider sending off list notes (or use OT Chatter) with personal/review comments aimed at only one or two people ("I loved your post.." "I have a spare Hedwig ornament you could have" .. that sort of thing) if that's all you want to say; - If you have questions about the lists that aren't answered by the various files we've created, please contact the moderators or (for the newbies) your List Elf for further information. See bottom of message for addresses. Please don't post your question on the main list; MAKING THINGS EASIER TO READ - Please remember to label posts accurately (especially those of you on Digest) and use prefixes for certain topics: FF (fanfic), MOVIE, SHIP (relationshipping), (filk) etc, so that people can decide what they want to read and skip those things they want to avoid. Anything labelled ADMIN should, of course, be chanted three times in a nasal voice and observed dutifully. ;-) - If you are responding to long posts, please be kind to the rest of us and snip out the bits of the original message that aren't needed. Otherwise your excellent comments may be lost like a tiny saplings in a tangled forest. ANY QUESTIONS? For general reference, please view the Welcome Message in the Files section, and that includes a link to pretty much everything you might need to know (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPFGUWelcome.htm). Among other things, it includes links to the VFAQ, netiquette tips file, shorthand terms (such as IMHO, IIRC, OBHWF) and the Portkey to our sister groups. Moderator Hexquarters (reaches all the moderators): hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com List Elf Dungeon: hp4guelves at yahoo.com. You read this far? My, you were bored indeed.... Magically yours, Neil Moderator Team ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia Mechanimagus Moderator "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything to do with this club: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm From litalex at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 08:30:23 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:30:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SS liking AD References: <9gegdq+pe40@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00e501c0f63e$975e0360$c410eda9@littlealex> No: HPFGUIDX 20983 Hello, From: "Amy Z" > Who needs Viagra when he has Skelegro? (This sick little thought is > not original with me, drat it. See msg. #20371 for the genius of > Robert Carnegie.) I thought one of the things that separates humans from other species is that the males in our species *don't* have bones...there. little Alex From maestrie at libero.it Sat Jun 16 08:21:08 2001 From: maestrie at libero.it (Elena Maestri) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:21:08 +0200 Subject: I Don't Know How To Kill Him (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20984 I Don't Know How To Kill Him (from GoF, Chap. 1) (To the tune of I Don't Know How To Love Him, from Jesus Christ Superstar) THE SCENE: in the Riddle House, on the armchair by the fire, Lord Voldemort is plotting his scheme to return to power and finally kill Harry Potter. VOLDEMORT I don?t know how to kill him! What to do to destroy him? I have failed, yes, thrice I failed Thirteen years ago, nearly killed myself, I changed to something else? I don't know how it happened, I don't see why he lives still. He?s a kid, a wizard kid! And I?ve killed so many of them before, in very many ways: he?s just one more! Should I use Cruciatus? Or the Killing Curse? Should I call Nagini, let her eat him raw? I never thought I'd come to this. Damn this Potter guy! I don?t think it?s very funny, I should be in this position. I?m the One, who?s always been so mean, so cruel, so ?You-Know-Who?, harming everyone: he annoys me so! (Lord Voldemort stops for a moment because he is very annoyed! In the meantime he schemes) I never thought I'd come to this. Damn this Potter guy! But, now I have a good plan: Hogwarts hosts one Death Eater! With his help, Harry will be mine: he?ll win the Cup, I?ll get him then, I?ll use his very blood for my return. This time is right: I?ll kill him so!!! (Calls Wormtail and begins the planning..) Elena From nethilia at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 08:45:09 2001 From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia De Lobo) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My Smartquiz HP results In-Reply-To: <992593736.2021.72035.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20010616084509.72342.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20985 # 1 Albus Dumbledore # 2 Remus Lupin # 3 Harry Potter # 4 Neville Longbottom # 5 Ron Weasley # 6 Draco Malfoy # 7 Voldemort # 8 Rubeus Hagrid # 9 Sirius Black # 10 Bill Weasley # 11 Fred/George Weasley # 12 Gilderoy Lockhart # 13 Minerva McGonagall # 14 Hermione Granger # 15 Charlie Weasley # 16 Percy Weasley # 17 Severus Snape # 18 Ginny Weasley Well, I'm definately not a Weasley...but Dumbledore? O_o --Neth ===== --Nethilia de Lobo-- **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.** http://www.geocities.com/spenecial Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From madhuri567 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 09:16:14 2001 From: madhuri567 at yahoo.com (Madhuri) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:16:14 -0000 Subject: Hermione dying? Message-ID: <9gf84u+k0r2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20986 I realise that it's quite late to be commenting on this, but I just had to raise the question. During the recent 'Who's going to die' thread, I realised that no one mentioned Hermione dying, or even getting hurt. I understand that she is a very dear character to us, and is considered almost perfect by many people I know, but does that make her invincible? Why is it that it's more probably Ron will die, rather than Hermione? I personally think that Ron dying would be terribly cliche, not to mention predictable. Why can't Hermione do something stupid in the course of the series and put herself in danger? So far, I don't think we've ever seen Hermione being stupid, or even silly, but if she were to have a moment of weakness in the later books, what do you think would happen? Madhuri From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sat Jun 16 09:17:40 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:17:40 +0100 Subject: ADMIN: Quiz/sorting etc results go to OT Chatter References: <20010616084509.72342.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015901c0f645$31e8f1a0$b63670c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 20987 A small addendum to the previous ADMIN post: Everyone please note that there are a few HP-related things that should go to OT Chatter, including: - "*** Detailing your results on a HP Quiz or Sorting Hat test ***" If you aren't a member of OT Chatter already, please join to post such things as those listed in this file: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPfGU-OTChatter.txt Thanks Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia Mechanimagus Moderator "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything to do with this club: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm From dosser at btinternet.com Sat Jun 16 10:32:11 2001 From: dosser at btinternet.com (Chris Dosset) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:32:11 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly a Lesbian? References: <9gdnnk+1s01@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000d01c0f64f$cc41fda0$e442073e@chris> No: HPFGUIDX 20988 ----- Original Message ----- From: Alexandra Y. Kwan To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 8:29 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly a Lesbian? Hello, Sorry to return to this after so long... "ender_w" wrote: >>>books so far and we have yet to see any major indications of heterosexuality (outside of schoolkid crushes), much less<<< All the marriages in the book indicates heterosexuality... >>>without ever touching on sexuality at all. Harry Potter probably will be one of those.<<< I hope that it will be one of the great classics in the future, but every time a children's book mentions marriage and someone's straight parents, it's subtly mentioning sexuality, heterosexuality in specific. I sincerely wish that in a future world, authors can mention that the kid hero has gay parents and that'd be as ordinary as if the kid had straight parents. That one of his uncles is married to a man and the kid would think of it as normal as the other uncle who is married to a woman. It would appear that in our current world, I'm asking for too much. Am I? I think it is asking a little too much at the present moment, but in the future, who knows? Sadly, I think that if Jo included openly gay charachters in her books, even as relatives of the main charachters, there would be uproar in certain circles who like to sweep such things under the carpet. Chris P.S. can I say that, as a straight guy, I love the "little Alex" posts. Keep it up little A! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Click for Details _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sprsun at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 10:37:26 2001 From: sprsun at yahoo.com (sprsun at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:37:26 -0000 Subject: Gabrielle - HG's race - Part-Veela - Head boy - Prefect - Newbie In-Reply-To: <3B29D62C.B04700F3@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9gfct6+jlu0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20989 Rita Winston wrote: > I like to believe that Cho does/is all that (except not yet employed or > married) and that her parents were persuaded that education in Magic, > accompanied by summer school in science and engineering subjects, would > be very helpful in landing a prestigious and well-paid Muggle career. > That is, the big conflict will come when she finishes Hogwarts and tells > them that she's going to be a pro Quidditch player (or some other career > in the wizarding world) and NOT going to a Muggle university. It might > have come earlier, if Cedric had lived, if Cho and Cedric were, as I > believe, serious about each other, and she asked their permission to get > engaged to this weirdo with no prospects. Does it being a white weirdo > make it worse? Some Chinese families would be delighted if their daughter is married to a rich white kid whose parent works as some kind of an official (meaning a stable job!) It all depends on what kind of family she's from. There're all types of Chinese families! Some are more supportive of the kids' own choices and some are more old-fashioned. Do we know for sure that Cho is a Chinese? > Cai Hui wrote: > > I have this huge crush on Lupin)! > > That shows that you have good taste. I've never doubted my taste! BTW, I also like Snape quite a lot, but don't care much about Sirius though. Sirius is cool, but he's just not complex enough (yet) for my taste! I love those characters with some dark secrets. > > Has anyone ever addressed Lupin by his first name? > > I agree that it doesn't sound right that everyone else is called by > first name except dear Remus, but JKR concealed his first name from us > until we found out that he was a werewolf, because it is a clue. Well, I'd never have caught that kind of clue! When I was reading it for the first time I'd been dying of worry that he'd turn out to be evil or something like the previous DADA teachers had! I'm sure none of you would be as clueless as I was. On the other hand, JKR doesn't exist in Harry Potter's universe. She might have practical reason for concealing Lupin's first name until the end, but once written this way, it carries its own meaning in the story's context. And imho, when we analyze characters we really shouldn't think too much about the author's intentions. > Once upon a time, there was some newspaper article about the Chinese > translation of Harry Potter, that said that some of the European > folklore would be replaced by Chinese folklore. Did you notice any > examples of that? I haven't noticed any. Maybe it's a Taiwan translation it's talking about? Anyway, it'd be really difficult to fit Chinese folklores into the books without altering the text in a major way. From what I can tell, the translations have been following the original texts quite faithfully, although I really think they should've added much, much more footnotes. There's no explanation of the words on the Mirror of Erised! I wonder if the translator has got it. Hui From andromache815 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 11:32:38 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:32:38 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' and Snape's grudges - Lupin's reserve References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20990 Monika said: It seems that he was quite immature at 16 when he told Snape about the Whomping Willow (but he did *not* drag him into the tunnel, Catherine added: I think that sending Snape to the Whomping Willow was an immature teenage prank, in which the ramifications hadn't properly been thought through. Yes, but Sirius knew Snape would take the bait. He may not have wanted him dead, but it was still pretty mean. Granted, the dementor's kiss is worse, but if Snape had been bitten, Lupin probably would have felt terribly. As for the teenager argument, I can't accept it. Both of them are acting out of hatred, so neither party's actions are excusable. It'll be interesting when we find out what fuels their fires. Monika: but I am still convinced that Sirius' violent outbursts in PoA have *nothing* to do with overall poor impulse control. (If I bore you, just don't read on.) They look way more like a pretty classic symptom of post-traumatic stress disorder. I'd like to see the individual that would go through what Sirius has gone through and get away without being traumatized. But then, I might be biased because he is my favorite. I just can't see him as a violent git, and the fact that he didn't lose it any more in GoF after recovering for a few months seems to corroborate the theory that his losing control is more likely a symptom of PTSD than a character trait. Okay. I suppose that's plausible. Monika: He still hates Snape, that's true, but he's not interested in killing him, he wouldn't go looking for him. Would Snape really kill Sirius, though? It's hard to say. I doubt either of them would help each other out if they were in a bind. They hate each other equally. (About Sirius) Catherine: He acts extremely maturely in all his dealings with Harry Of course, he does. He likes him. [About Snape] > What maturation process? He's petty and malicious, but he's on the right > side. Monika: I think so, too, but Snape is pretty immature IMO. Look at the way he always picks on those who are weaker than him and not likely to defend themselves. The way he treats Harry, and the way he treats Hermione. I don't know if I will ever forgive him the comment he made about Hermione's teeth or threatening Harry with the truth potion. And I doubt he would have threatened Sirius with the dementor's kiss in the Shrieking Shack if Sirius had been his equal, I mean if he would have been able to defend himself with a wand. I always thought that Snape was being sadistic, he could have just put a full body bind on Sirius and bring him in. But no, he first threatened to Avada Kedavra someone who didn't have a wand to duel, and because this still wasn't enough, he threatened his arch-enemy with the dementor's kiss just for the pleasure to see the fear on his face. Okay, I'll give you that. Revelling in someone's fear is pretty immature, but then Snape could have just killed Sirius. He could have slipped Veritaserum in Harry's pumpkin juice whenever Harry wouldn't tell everything he knew. The comment on Hermione's teeth was cruel, though. I guess what I'm saying is that he doesn't act on his threats. He does have a need to threaten people, and to control them, but despite his immaturity, I can't hate him. If I met someone like him IRL, I probably wouldn't like him, and we'd be at each other's throats, since I have a major temper. But somehow, his mysterious past keeps me enthralled, and I'm guessing that he has just as much right to hate Sirius as Sirius does to hate him. I guess what it boils down to is their mutual hatred for each other. Sirius is obviously more mature than Snape, but he can't let go of his grudge, and that's what I can't understand. I can't wait till all is revealed. I wonder if girls were involved. Emma: One has to wonder what dear Remus was thinking when all of this went down. Yes. Lupin is quite secretive. He doesn't seem to like to show emotion. But I suppose that comes of not being around people too much, and closing oneself off. Perhaps he can identify with Snape in the loneliness and being shunned by society. Maybe they both feel as if they have no one to trust with their feelings, or that to analyze their lives brings only pain. They can't trust people, because people don't want to understand them. People only hurt them. I can identify with this kind of loneliness and sorrow, being a misfit in high school. I read too many classics, and was the kid who always knew the answers. These are the things I felt. Vicky From dosser at btinternet.com Sat Jun 16 12:04:38 2001 From: dosser at btinternet.com (Chris Dosset) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:04:38 +0100 Subject: House Elves keep making up my bed (filk) Message-ID: <005001c0f65c$890b09c0$e442073e@chris> No: HPFGUIDX 20991 Hi The wonderful Caius inspired me to try to write a filk, so be nice as it's my virgin attempt. House Elves keep making up my bed (GoF) (To the tune of Rain Drops keep falling on my head) THE SCENE: Gryffindor Tower Common Room, Hermione, Ron and Harry sit near the fire. HERMIONE House Elves keep making up my bed, But that doesn't mean they should be used to keep us fed, Cooking all the meals, Those House Elves keep working all day long, they keep working, So I just did me some thinking, what to do? Then I decided what they needed was to S.P.E.W. Payment for their work, Plus lots of holidays and health care by B.U.P.A. But there's one thing, I know, I'll fight to make them happy... RON (snappily) Don't be sappy! Happiness is theirs already HERMIONE (repeats first verse defiantly) -Chris- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sat Jun 16 12:31:18 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:31:18 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly a Lesbian? References: <9gdnnk+1s01@eGroups.com> <000d01c0f64f$cc41fda0$e442073e@chris> Message-ID: <01bf01c0f660$53f607e0$b63670c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 20992 Chris Dosset said: << I sincerely wish that in a future world, authors can mention that the kid hero has gay parents and that'd be as ordinary as if the kid had straight parents. That one of his uncles is married to a man and the kid would think of it as normal as the other uncle who is married to a woman. It would appear that in our current world, I'm asking for too much. Am I?>> I'm afraid the answer is yes. It will always be an issue until people stop assuming heterosexuality as a default. Being gay is not a choice; the choice is in whether or not to be honest or open about your sexual orientation. That is made doubly difficult by demonstrations of intolerance and ignorance by the people around you. For a sizeable chunk of the earth's population, homosexuality or bisexuality is the norm and not some sort of wild adventure, challenging normality and daring to be different. "Being gay" is not a career, it's just one of the many characteristics of humankind. On a daily basis, I can assure you (not that most of you need assuring) that "being gay" takes a very distant back seat to grocery shopping washing clothes, watching television, paying the bills, sleeping soundly and reading busy message boards... In the Harry Potter books, our gang have reached the age when puberty has arrived for most, and sexual interests are stirring. In the real world, there would be no doubt that some of those students are lesbian, gay or bisexual, even if they haven't realised it yet. I agree with some that it doesn't necessarily follow that JKR will address this directly, but if she plans to explore relationships between the students (and it looks like she might), I would be disappointed if they prove to be unrepresentative of real life. Relationships aside, JKR could, as others have pointed out, indicate, or even imply, that certain characters are lesbian or gay without tying a big label on them. I've expressed a more cautious view before, that JKR would avoid the whole gay issue because of the backlash that could, and probably would, result. I still don't think we can assume that she *should* do anything other than continue to write wonderful books, and there have been a great many works fiction that didn't obviously exclude gay people simply because they failed to mention them. The Harry Potter series is not a panacea for the ills of the world; it's JK Rowling's story - a fantasy - and if we don't see what we'd like to see, we are capable of reading between the lines [enter, stage left, the vast array of slashfic on offer]. Some people express concerns about having their children read about homosexuality in the Harry Potter books, and I can understand that this is a difficult issue for those who hold to the idea that homosexuality is "wrong". I see the issue as one of the responsibility of parents to tell their children the truth about the world around them, and not one of the responsibility of the author to keep such challenging issues out of her books. Is the truth such a bad thing? (Sorry, I know this thread was on its last legs and teetering on OT, but I've been too busy to respond and I wanted to say something...) Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything to do with this club: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm From margdean at erols.com Sat Jun 16 12:51:09 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 08:51:09 -0400 Subject: Cho Chinese? References: <9gfct6+jlu0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B2B563D.B3687B1D@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20993 Rita Winston wrote: > Do we know for sure that Cho is a Chinese? Well, I believe "Chang" is a Chinese name (rather than, say, Japanese or Korean), but I'm not sure about "Cho." She could be a mix, of course, father Chinese and mother something else. --Margaret Dean From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 13:52:23 2001 From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:52:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPPING of Love and War References: <9gehn8+bl3p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <001001c0f66b$980f0a70$c871023e@shasta> No: HPFGUIDX 20994 Emma wrote, > I have issues with Ron. When we were reading Harry Potter together, > my psycho ex always identified with Ron, the needy personality type. > He never understood why Hermione wasn't more into him, why she wasn't > more attentive to him. And now, in retrospect, I see a lot of my > ex's neediness in Ron. He has some bluster, but really no deeply- > ingrained self-confidence to carry him through the rough spots. He's > defined by his family more than by his own actions. And he can't > quite seem to go it alone, at least not to me. This is what makes me > really dread to see Hermione and Ron end up together. Ron is clingy, > yet oblivious. I think he would wear down Hermione, much like my ex > wore me down over the years. And I want to see our fiesty Hermione > do better for herself than get involved in a relationship with an > emotionally needy individual. > > Now I shall patiently wait for all the Ron fans and the sailors on > the Good Ship Hr/R to come out of the woodwork and eat me alive...I > taste better with honey mustard, mind... [A queasy pirate staggers onto deck with a cutlass in his teeth. Drops the cutlass on his foot, retches over the bulwarks and blasphemes profusely as he adjusts his eyepatch ... "Now who told that wench I'm allergic to mustard?"] Actually, I'm not much of Shipper, and you obviously have a point. I think most readers are at least a little worried about Ron. His combination of insecurity and jealousy, his lack of a defining quality or talent (apart from chess-playing and bad jokes)--it's all a little worrisome. OTOH, I wonder whether Jo really meant for him to come across like that. Back in pre-GoF days, a lot of people (including me) were worried about Harry. He seemed emotionally unengaged. He was always receiving presents from his new friends, but he never seemed to be giving anything to anyone else. People voiced these worries in interviews. Come GoF, Harry turns philanthropist and has a big fight with Ron. Now, we're worried about Ron. It could be that the weaknesses we see in Ron are intentional and will have repercussions in the plot. But it also could be that Jo will make OoP the book in which Ron gets to show *his* stuff. For Ron's sake--and maybe because there's a little Ron in me too--I'd like it to be. Baaaaaa! Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray) _______________________ "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high." From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Jun 16 13:58:10 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:58:10 -0000 Subject: SHIPPING of Love and War In-Reply-To: <9geks8+fsve@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gfoli+6n7v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20995 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" wrote: > > The thing is that Harry and Hermione are needy too. Their neediness > does not come across in the same way, but it's still there. Ron is > obviously insecure, but not much less so than Harry or Hermione.> Of course! I haven't been as struck with the thought that Ron was a "typical needy boy" as others here. He seems to hold his own more often than not. I find Neville much needier than Ron (but that's another post entirely), but I see Ron as moody and insecure about certain things. Isn't that normal? I'm a 31 year old woman and I still have some insecurities. I also think Ron, unlike Harry, lets others know his feelings and insecurities and doesn't make excuses for them ("I hate being poor!" and so on). I also have to remind myself that they are only 14 now, and people do grow and usually change for the better as they get older. When I was in college I blamed everyone else for my problems because I had trouble with responsibility and had a jolting realization about that when I was 25 - and boy, have I changed! Ron has a lot of growing to do, and if his parents' relationship is any indication of a relationship he might have, there is hope! > > If a Ron/Hermione marriage were to happen I see it being somewhat > like Ebony's TiP (wonderful story by the way!). However in my > universe, post-canon R/H date, maybe even get engaged, and then > realise that their fights aren't funny, and that while they made > good friends they could never be husband and wife.> Who said anything about marriage? I'm really just talking canon here. Even though I'm still not sure why there's an attraction between Ron and Hermione, I see that JKR has created one and I believe that the two of them will act on it. If they both survive *takes a steadying breath to get the thought out of her head*, they are likely, as someone mentioned, to meet other witches and wizards (or Muggles) who could very well be the Ones for each of them. Harry, too, though I've made it pretty damned clear I want him to give Ginny a chance . > > --I've said before that I dislike Ginny, but much more so because I > don't feel like we know her than because what we *do* know of her I > don't like.> As someone who likes Ginny very much, I'm curious to know what it is exactly about Ginny that people do not like (it has been mentioned before). There are other characters who aren't well developed yet are well loved (Neville, Fred, George...). I think we need to know more about Ginny, though and I'm happy to say that JKR will be developing her character more in OoP. > > Ebony wrote later: > "QUESTION: What is the basis of Ron and Hermione's friendship?" > While I think that similar and common interests can > certainly build a relationship/friendship I don't think they are the > basis of it. Being friends has to do with connecting with other > people. One way to do that is with common interests, but once a > person becomes friends with someone their experiences together are > far more "binding" than their common interests. Though those > experiences are likely to be about shared interest. Argh! I'm not > sure *what* I'm trying to say.> Absolutely! Childhood friendships, whether or not they last, are always remembered fondly - I still keep in touch with my two oldest friends and now they feel more like relatives than friends even though we do not talk regularly. Something very important about the H, H, and R friendship is convenience. They live together and go to most classes together. Had Hermione been placed in Ravenclaw, I don't think they'd be such good friends. I also believe that in times of stress, familiar people are the ones we want to be around, and that is true for the three. When Harry finds something out, it is Hermione and Ron he runs to (although Hermione tends to keep more from Ron and Harry simply because they are boys. She chose to tell Ginny about Krum inviting her to the dance). Just as you mentioned about experiences, the adventures the three have together also keep them together as friends. --jenny from ravenclaw********** From michelleapostolides at lineone.net Sat Jun 16 14:24:46 2001 From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:24:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly a Lesbian? References: <9gdnnk+1s01@eGroups.com> <000d01c0f64f$cc41fda0$e442073e@chris> <01bf01c0f660$53f607e0$b63670c2@c5s910j> Message-ID: <002d01c0f670$1a4e8f20$8259063e@tmeltcds> No: HPFGUIDX 20996 > > In the Harry Potter books, our gang have reached the age when puberty has > arrived for most, and sexual interests are stirring. In the real world, > there would be no doubt that some of those students are lesbian, gay or > bisexual, even if they haven't realised it yet. I agree with some that it > doesn't necessarily follow that JKR will address this directly, but if she > plans to explore relationships between the students (and it looks like she > might), I would be disappointed if they prove to be unrepresentative of real > life. Relationships aside, JKR could, as others have pointed out, indicate, > or even imply, that certain characters are lesbian or gay without tying a > big label on them. > Hi Great thought well expressed. I would like to suggest that JKR may possibly tack the theme of different sexualities by other means - there may be no obvious mention of racism as we know it but I bet loads of kids have thought about their own attitude looking at the prejudice towards muggle born wizards. Not forgetting all the fuss about Hagrid...and Madame Maxime. IF the issue of homosexuality is raised, it won't bother me or stop me encouraging anyone to read the books. But it has to be JKR's descision and nobody else's Michelle From rowanbrookt at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 14:45:52 2001 From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com (rowanbrookt at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:45:52 -0000 Subject: Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie In-Reply-To: <9gd432+4efe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gfrf0+65hi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20997 I have not as yet read a HP book... yet I found your comments about the names very interesting, JKR has obviously taken hints from the good old Dickens. I would like to say, you sound quite nice. Your grammar was quite good, so there was "no need" (Mark & Lard) to apologise... My E- mail is vkgorski at hotmail.com I am using a friends account to post this message. I plan to read a HP book soon. I am 20 and am a student. Hope to hear from you soon. From devika261 at aol.com Sat Jun 16 15:14:47 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:14:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: , quiz Message-ID: <76.bcfffa5.285cd1e7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 20998 I got Hermione followed by Percy. What does that say about me? BTW, Sirius was last on my list. Hmmm...maybe opposites do attract . Devika :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 15:36:42 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:36:42 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPPING of Love and War Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 20999 Me: > > > You see, after nearly a year of contemplation of the matter, I do >think that it's not the bickering that bothers me most about R/H. >It's their personalities. Ron at this point in canon has many merits >as a character, but you must admit that he is needy. Perhaps he'll >grow out of this. My RL experiences with this personality type >indicate to me otherwise... we all carry ghosts of childhood along >with us, however deep they're buried. Allison: > > True, Ron can be a bit needy. But Ron is a teenage boy. As a >teenage girl, I'm going to offer my expert opinion that ALL teenage >boys are needy. He may not grow out of it completely, but it should >lessen with time. All teenagers are somewhat insecure, and this >tends to lead to neediness. I think Ron will get better as he gets >older. I certainly hope so. Rest assured that I am looking forward to Book 5 as eagerly as any R/H shipper. I really want Ron to shine. This was one thing that I do remember being disappointed re: GoF--that Ron didn't get his chance in the sun. (Because of the pre-GoF rumors, I was fully expecting that Ron would do something spectacular, then die... and I was SO nervous until it was obvious that he was safe... I don't want him to die any more than the Ron-fans do.) However, having said that, as a teacher of boys Ron's age... I am quite certain that not all of them are like Ron. How can they be? We've often discussed the factors that have made Ron into who he is--his family's socioeconomic status, birth order, perhaps even his dad's eccentricity. This combined with his personality has made him into the person he is today. Also, *everyone* is needy in some way, not just teenage boys. Some of us are just more needy than others. I am NOT saying that Ron is or will be an emotional leech. But I re-read PS/SS last week--and I must say I miss 11 year old Ron a lot. ;-) So I am sure that after Book Five, things will turn out as the R/Hers and no-shippers say. At least, I hope so. Emma: >I have issues with Ron. When we were reading Harry Potter together, >my psycho ex always identified with Ron, the needy personality type. >He never understood why Hermione wasn't more into him, why she wasn't >more attentive to him. And now, in retrospect, I see a lot of my >ex's neediness in Ron. He has some bluster, but really no deeply- >ingrained self-confidence to carry him through the rough spots. He's >defined by his family more than by his own actions. And he can't >quite seem to go it alone, at least not to me. This is what makes me >really dread to see Hermione and Ron end up together. Ron is clingy, >yet oblivious. I think he would wear down Hermione, much like my ex >wore me down over the years. And I want to see our fiesty Hermione >do better for herself than get involved in a relationship with an >emotionally needy individual. Yes, yes, yes. *This* nagged at me when I closed GoF after reading for the first time. I was thinking, "JKR's about to fix up Ron and Hermione together, and neither of them are going to be very happy." The vast majority of my shipmates that I've corresponded or chatted with don't dislike Ron as much as we're purported to. But you'll find that the two major het-ships have *very* different views of Crookshanksgate... anyway, I'm getting away from what I wanted to post about. Like Emma, real life has influenced my reading of this. I too have an ex who was sarcastic and funny and the sort of guy everyone wants as a good friend, but who is *very* overshadowed by his "total package" older brother. His family is more Malfoy than Weasley, but because of this he always went to exclusive prep schools in which he was often the only black student in his grade, if not the school... so like Ron he felt "different" than the other kids... and then in the black community he was *again* not of the norm because he came from money. He's a brilliant and talented guy, yet is *extremely* moody and insecure. We had a similar relationship pattern to what I see developing in canon between R and H--we were very good friends who liked our spats and debates and differences in opinion. Everyone concluded that we were therefore a love-match... that this sort of thing was cute. He started seeing me as more than a friend first... I'm sure I knew this before he did. I liked him a whole lot, and I was single, so I said "why not?" and we became a couple. It didn't work out. Talk about *draining*. I felt like I was on a constant roller coaster. The good times were extremely good, but the bad times were quite bad. Our relationship lasted a *lot* longer than it should have... three years, while we were ages 16 to 19... and ended very, very (did I say very?) badly. It is only in recent years that we've found each other again and become the best of friends. I do believe that friends make the best lovers, and I've never been in a relationship with someone who I wasn't friends with for a very long time first (which is why I find it easy to be a shipper). But my college LTR was a lot less volatile and a lot more tranquil than my high school one. Having experienced both types, I much prefer the latter. Of course, Hermione might not be really anything like me (although every time I take an HP character test, she *always* pops up first, followed closely by McGonagall and Percy), and I could just be overreacting to something that triggered a lot of bad memories in me. But the inspiration for all my writing comes from real life... so it was very easy for me to think up a Worst Case Scenario for R/H that I hope never, ever happens. I'm sure JKR can convince me that Ron and Hermione can work as a couple. But I'd much rather Harry, Ron, and Hermione just stay good friends in canon. Which is why sometimes on starlit nights, I stand on the deck of the imposing SS H/H, dreaming of the fabled ghost submarine Uboat No-Ship... OK, I'm getting weird. Time to get offline and walk back through the gateway at Platform 9 3/4 to the Muggle world. ;-) --Ebony <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< Ebony AKA AngieJ ebonyink at hotmail.com Come join us in Paradise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise Visit Schnoogle.com: http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 16 16:02:45 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:02:45 -0000 Subject: What about Dudley was Re: Lilly a Lesbian? In-Reply-To: <002d01c0f670$1a4e8f20$8259063e@tmeltcds> Message-ID: <9gfvv5+btdo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21000 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" > > Great thought well expressed. I would like to suggest that JKR may > possibly tack the theme of different sexualities by other means - there > may be no obvious mention of racism as we know it but I bet loads of > kids have thought about their own attitude looking at the prejudice > towards muggle born wizards. Not forgetting all the fuss about > Hagrid...and Madame Maxime. > > IF the issue of homosexuality is raised, The issue of homosexuality has been raised, IMO, though in such an oblique way that some of us may have missed it: Ch. 3. GOF ...Uncle Vernon maintained that "he didn't want some swotty little nancy boy for a son anyway." http://www.effingpot.com/slang.html informs me that "nancy boy" is British slang for a pathetic person, but also for a gay man. JKR has hinted that we are in for some startling developments in the Dursley family. Wouldn't it be ironic if Dudders turned out to be gay? JKR would probably catch flak from both gays and homophobes (good trick, that!) since Dudley is such an unsympathetic "great bullying git" but it would be interesting, wouldn't it? Pippin ( rushing in where angels fear to tread) From simon at hp.inbox.as Sat Jun 16 16:43:59 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:43:59 +0100 Subject: The Valentine's Card, Starting School and Killing Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21001 B wrote: <<>> Heidi: <<>> Adding to this question we would have to ask does Ginny know if she sent the card? If she spent most of the year under some spell of Tom Riddle's and forget chunks of what is going on he could have used her crush to send Harry the card to try and trap him. If so she may well just does not know. Against it being Fred and George I would have to say that to me they come across as people who would want to know that others know the jokes were caused by them. They do their practical jokes to get attention and this is one occasion where this is not the case. > Would it have come on my 11th birthday (the 16th of October) and then > I would wait until September the next year before I went to Hogwarts. > Or would the letter arrive in the summer just before September. Please > tell me what you think, this one kept me up last night Rachel: <<>> I would go with the idea that all the letters, at least to those of wizarding families, which Harry is, would get sent out at the same time. So in mid-July McGonagall consults the books of people who will be starting in September, sends owls off to those from the wizarding families and then some arrangement is made to go and see those of muggle parentage, and Harry who technically comes into this category. Madhuri: <<>> Well the major problem would be a large lack of female characters in major roles in the books. In my view, for Hermione to die, Ginny, or another girl, would have to become a lot more important to Harry. And by this I mean in a friendship sense, someone who is always there for him, and not a romantic sense. If Ron were to die then it is much easier to see one of the other existing characters, probably Neville, filling his role towards Harry. Simon -- 65% Obsessed with Harry Potter. How obsessed are you? Take The Harry Potter Obsession quiz at: http://www.fuuko.com/hpquiz.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From linman6868 at aol.com Sat Jun 16 16:46:28 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:46:28 -0000 Subject: SHIPPING of Love and War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gg2h4+b7eg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21002 Hi -- You know, I wrote a perfectly *brilliant* response to this topic last night, but Yahoo! and AOL between them lost it! ;) So here goes again, going over Niagara Falls in a barrel on a shipping post, for heaven's sake (I guess a good night's sleep didn't restore my sanity. Oh well. Like I'm surprised or anything.) Ebony wrote yesterday: > You see, after nearly a year of contemplation of the matter, I do think that > it's not the bickering that bothers me most about R/H. It's their > personalities. > > Ron at this point in canon has many merits as a character, but you must > admit that he is needy. Perhaps he'll grow out of this. My RL experiences > with this personality type indicate to me otherwise... we all carry ghosts > of childhood along with us, however deep they're buried. > All the Rons I've ever known in real life are nice enough people, but they > like not only to be their significant other's first priority, but the vast > majority of it. A point well taken. If Ron and Hermione entered into a relationship immediately post-GoF, it would be a bad thing. Hermione would be forced to bear the brunt of Ron's growths and recidivisms, and nobody, whatever their age, can sustain another person's sense of well-being in that fashion. However, no such relationship has developed, and even in the Yule Ball episode, Ron's neediness does not *center* on Hermione, though it may momentarily hit her the hardest. For interpreting Ron's interest in Hermione at this point, I think it's best to read what's happening with Ron in the Yule Ball episode in the context of what's just been happening. Ron's self-confidence is already very off-balance: he's let his best friend down by giving in to envy of Harry's public recognition, fought with him over it, and made Harry so mad at him that it looked like Harry might not forgive him. Surely Ron even in his most envious private moments would never want to do this. It probably is, in fact, why Ron let the weight of his envy build up as much as it did -- he cares about Harry and he cares about his relationship with Harry, so naturally, envious thoughts are traitorous and the only thing to do with them is stuff them down, right? Wrong. Ron was seriously wrong about the way he handled his latent envy of Harry, and now he knows it. So what does he do? He gets defensive with Hermione after the first task; he practically kills himself to be helpful and encouraging to Harry all through the preparation for the second task; he hopes Mad- Eye Moody will tell him he has the makings of an Auror; he is eager to dump off the wrongness onto Karkaroff, the ex-Death Eater, and Percy, the pompous junior official. What Ron wants more than anything in this book is to be right, to be spectacularly right, and to be recognized for it. He might have known this looking into the Mirror of Erised; he might have known it during the Crookshanks War; but now that he's been so spectacularly *wrong*, it really sinks in. Sure, he may have feelings for Hermione, but they really are IMO taking a back seat to his consuming inner struggle. I'm willing to bet that if someone went to Ron after the Yule Ball and said, "Hey mate, wake up, you have feelings for Hermione," Ron would be more likely to say (after saying, "You're barking!" of course), "Man, I don't need this. Make it stop!" than to start whining because Hermione doesn't pay enough attention to him. I'm actually impressed with Ron for beginning to face up to himself this early in life. I mean, I've known 24- and 34- and 44- and 74- year-old needy people and they haven't learned much. A needy person can mend (I have known one that did), but I don't know many who begin to go through this struggle at 14. Ron's stumbling apology to Harry, his finally-honest admission to his friends that he hates being poor, his asking Krum for his autograph, are evidences to me, not that we all finally know he's a big whiner and is going to stay that way, but that the door is now open for him to come into his own -- which will most certainly take courage. But he's in Gryffindor, the house of courage. > R/H may be inevitable in canon. No non-R/H shipper disputes that. But the > only way I can see R/H lasting for any significant amount of time is if > fundamental aspects of their personalities change. But then, Ron wouldn't > be Ron, and Hermione wouldn't be Hermione... Since you invoked CSL, I'll only say, "Nothing is yet in its true form," which goes for the friendship as well as any possible romances. > I agree with C. S. Lewis (*must* do the Four Loves essay-post this summer... > :::makes mental note to self:::) Friendship is based on common ground... > shared interests. (QUESTION: What is the basis of Ron and Hermione's > friendship? A lot of people answered this question *much* better than I did in my *brilliant* lost post , so I won't wrangle with Lewis and Philia and Eros today. Maybe on OTChatter... Okay, I guess I've fallen off the lighthouse on Cape Hatteras and am now bobbing in the water in my little barrel (Lord help me). Lisa I. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 16 16:50:29 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:50:29 -0000 Subject: SHIPPING of Love and War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gg2ol+o0m5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21003 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" wrote: > > > > You see, after nearly a year of contemplation of the matter, I do > >think that it's not the bickering that bothers me most about R/H. > >It's their personalities. Ron at this point in canon has many merits > >as a character, but you must admit that he is needy. Perhaps he'll > >grow out of this. My RL experiences with this personality type > >indicate to me otherwise... we all carry ghosts of childhood along > >with us, however deep they're buried. Ebony's RL experience Here's my real life experience, which I put as a counter to all those who can't quite imagine how R/H could work... My husband and I met when we were both 18. In the early stages of our relationship, before either of us was prepared to admit there *was* a relationship, we spatted almost as much as Ron and Hermione. The sparring was, as I look back on it, a way for us to get to know each other, to find out what we cared about about, without dealing with the scary stuff. It was scary not only because we were both immature and inexperienced and insecure, but because we came from very different backgrounds. I was a Jewish city child, he was an suburban W.A.S.P. Neither of us were *at all* what the other had previously envisioned as a romantic partner . Although our immediate families were liberal, we both had grandparents we feared would disown us (turns we needn't have worried). Once we started going out together, the bickering died down. I don't share his grand passion for flying, he doesn't share my grand passion for books...but we're each amazed that we found somebody who was willing to give us space for that passion, and to understand how deeply important it is to us and respect us for something most people think is a bit daft. I don't need him to love HP as much as I do, but I do like it when he tells me that loving HP is okay. On Ron's neediness, I agree that the other two are just as needy, but Ron has a more outspoken style. But none of them seem to have the kind of manipulative neediness that could destroy a relationship. Ron's never said, for example, "Well, if you cared about me, you'd let me copy your papers." They're not, any of them, thinking that if the right person fell in love with them, it would solve all their problems. So, from my perspective (we are celebrating our twentyfifth anniversary) R/H could definitely have "legs". Pippin From klhurt at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 16:51:14 2001 From: klhurt at yahoo.com (Kelly the Yarn Junkie) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nearly Headless Nick in CoS Message-ID: <20010616165114.94271.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21004 Okay, this has been driving me batty since I first read the book: How was Nearly Headless Nick revived after petrification? He's a ghost, so he couldn't actually ingest a potion and a topical solution would flow right through him. Kelly the Yarn Junkie (who has a list of non-plot-related nitpicky questions) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 16:52:23 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:52:23 -0000 Subject: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <20010616005053.40197.qmail@web13106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gg2s7+9nr0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21005 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sarah Rose wrote: > I am aware of the fact that Hogwart's motto is "Draco > dormiens nunquam titillandus" which means Never Trust > a Sleeping Dragon (or something to that extent. I've > been racking my brain and rereading all my HP books, > but for the life of me I cannot find where it's > originally stated. I must be skipping over it's > placement. Could somebody please point me to where > it's orginally stated, book and chapter. Thanks soo > much! > > Sarah > It actually means "Never tickle a sleeping dragon", and it is only found on the front endpapers of each book, not in the text. Haggridd From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 17:38:53 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIPPING of Love and War In-Reply-To: <9geks8+fsve@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010616173853.17230.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21006 The thing is that Harry and Hermione are needy too. Their neediness does not come across in the same way, but it's still there. Ron is obviously insecure, but not much less so than Harry or Hermione. (I'm not going to go into a long dissertation on the fact, but Harry has issues with trust and Hermione's studying is IMHO a sign of insecurity. At least I think my own studying habits often reflect as such.) I agree that all teenagers are to a certain extent insecure. At this age we don't even know *who* we really are. Insecurity, at least sometimes, is a given. That is a very good point that I felt needs to be addressed here. They are all teenagers. Ron came from an environment where obviously he felt that he did not have much of his own. This is why he is always on the defense of what he has for himself. His friends(Harry and Hermione), his family, and his rat. As far as jealously goes, I'd probably be a bit jealous of Harry and his attention too, even if it is unwanted. Hermione's success at school and constant studying is a reflection of the fact that she feels she might be a failure if she doesn't study. She feels that all her worth and wisdom comes directly from books, which is sad but true ( that she feels this way). Harry is insecure because he feels that he will loose everything that he has. He is worried that he will loose his Godfather, his friends, his everything. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Buzz Index - Spot the hottest trends in music, movies,and more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 17:56:59 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Smartquiz HP results In-Reply-To: <20010616084509.72342.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010616175659.91454.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21007 Where is this quiz..could you send me a link? Melanie Hey everyone please go to my Harry Potter site at: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/hogwarts2/index.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Buzz Index - Spot the hottest trends in music, movies,and more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dragon_starling at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 19:08:15 2001 From: dragon_starling at yahoo.com (dragon_starling at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:08:15 -0000 Subject: Hermione's age In-Reply-To: <9gejlm+tjpl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ggaqv+3lvc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21008 When discusing age cut-off I think we should take into thought the 'muggle-born issue' as I call it. I think that all muggle borns who would normally be going into their secondary school years (is that what it's called in the UK?) would start going to Hogwarts. Hermione's parents probly decided Hermione was ready to start school though she'd be among the youngest. As for non-muggle borns then the cut off could still be Sept. 1 if that's what you believe the cut off would be. I personaly think that the cut-off would allow a little room for those who are born in Sept. so they wouldn't have to wait a year. ~Star~ --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" wrote: > Steve Vander Ark wrote: > > Hermione was born on September 19th. I believe that she was born in > 1980 as well and that she turned 11 a couple of weeks after she > started at Hogwarts, but others feel that the cutoff is September 1 > so she must have been born in 1979. > > I agree with Steve and think that Hermione is one of the younger kids > in her year. I base this solely on the fact that my own birthday is > September 18th and I was always a bit younger than the rest of the > kids in my class. Since this is the wizarding world we are > speculating about, who's to say that Muggle age cutoff dates are used > at all? My pet theory is that every child who turns 11 in that year > (ie 1991) goes on to Hogwarts even if his or her birthday is in > November. Meaning, of course, that there may be a few 10 year olds > at school in the first half of the school year. Dumbledore also > alludes to the fact that Hermione is the same age as Harry and Ron in > PoA: "--and the word of two thirteen year old wizards will not > convince anybody." (PoA Chapter 21, p. 392, US ed) > > That's my position and I'm sticking to it... > > Trina From dragon_starling at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 19:13:33 2001 From: dragon_starling at yahoo.com (dragon_starling at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:13:33 -0000 Subject: Hermione dying? In-Reply-To: <9gf84u+k0r2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ggb4t+uok6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21009 In fanfiction ppl can have whoever they want to die but in the 'real' series J.K. said that none of the trio would die. People can go ahead and try to predict who all are going to die but it wont be H, H, or R. I personally think that it's likely one of the Weasleys might die though I hope I'm wrong! ~Star~ --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Madhuri" wrote: > I realise that it's quite late to be commenting on this, but I just > had to raise the question. During the recent 'Who's going to die' > thread, I realised that no one mentioned Hermione dying, or even > getting hurt. I understand that she is a very dear character to us, > and is considered almost perfect by many people I know, but does that > make her invincible? Why is it that it's more probably Ron will die, > rather than Hermione? I personally think that Ron dying would be > terribly cliche, not to mention predictable. Why can't Hermione do > something stupid in the course of the series and put herself in > danger? > So far, I don't think we've ever seen Hermione being stupid, or even > silly, but if she were to have a moment of weakness in the later > books, what do you think would happen? > > Madhuri From dragon_starling at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 19:19:31 2001 From: dragon_starling at yahoo.com (dragon_starling at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:19:31 -0000 Subject: Nearly Headless Nick in CoS In-Reply-To: <20010616165114.94271.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9ggbg3+gptd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21010 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kelly the Yarn Junkie wrote: > Okay, this has been driving me batty since I first read the book: How > was Nearly Headless Nick revived after petrification? He's a ghost, so > he couldn't actually ingest a potion and a topical solution would flow > right through him. > > Kelly the Yarn Junkie > (who has a list of non-plot-related nitpicky questions) That bothered me for awhile along with him actually being petrified but I figure the potion flowing through him was enough to cure his odd situation. Besides, several of the potions we've seen work without really being digested, once they're 'inside' the potion goes to work. ~Star~ From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 16 19:53:17 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:53:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks WAS( Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie) References: <20010616054000.5131.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B2BB92D.B3EA786B@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21011 Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > I listened very carefully several times and JKR > definately says that Crookshanks is half kneazle. Oh, bless you, my child! I did the partial transcript, listening to it a zillion times, and I was also certain that she said half. But nobody else seemed to agree. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 16 19:57:51 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:57:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwart's Motto, help! References: <9gg2s7+9nr0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B2BBA3E.7BDAC43@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21012 Haggridd wrote: > It actually means "Never tickle a sleeping dragon", and it is only > found on the front endpapers of each book, not in the text. AND only in the British editions, I believe, since I was unaware until I got a "Philosopher's Stone" version that it had appeared in the books at all. I thought it was movie-art like all the rest. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sat Jun 16 20:08:37 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 20:08:37 -0000 Subject: 'Cho' = 'butterfly'Re: Cho Chinese? In-Reply-To: <3B2B563D.B3687B1D@erols.com> Message-ID: <9ggec5+bpe1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21013 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean wrote: > Rita Winston wrote: > > > Do we know for sure that Cho is a Chinese? > > Well, I believe "Chang" is a Chinese name (rather than, say, > Japanese or Korean), but I'm not sure about "Cho." She could be > a mix, of course, father Chinese and mother something else. 'Cho' is a Japanese name, like the character 'Cho-Cho San' in the opera "Madame Butterfly". According to a Baby Names book at the office, the name 'Cho' means 'butterfly'-----something for the Animagi speculators and the Patronus speculators to think about. ;-)Milz From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 21:14:56 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's age In-Reply-To: <9ggaqv+3lvc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010616211456.35172.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21014 --- dragon_starling at yahoo.com wrote: > When discusing age cut-off I think we should take > into thought > the 'muggle-born issue' as I call it. I think that > all muggle borns > who would normally be going into their secondary > school years (is If I remember correctly in the States the cutoff is you have to be 6 by Jan 15th to go to kindergarden so that may be how it works in the magical world Danette Just my 2 knuts ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 21:18:20 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks WAS( Linguistic observations + Introduction of me, the newbie) In-Reply-To: <3B2BB92D.B3EA786B@texas.net> Message-ID: <20010616211820.41184.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21015 --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Oh, bless you, my child! I did the partial > transcript, listening to it a > zillion times, and I was also certain that she said > half. But nobody > else seemed to agree. > > --Amanda You're welcome although I never expected to be called "my child" at 29. :D Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Jun 16 21:39:24 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:39:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nearly Headless Nick in CoS In-Reply-To: <20010616165114.94271.qmail@web14205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010616143612.03464100@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21016 At 09:51 AM 6/16/01 -0700, Kelly the Yarn Junkie wrote: >Okay, this has been driving me batty since I first read the book: How >was Nearly Headless Nick revived after petrification? He's a ghost, so >he couldn't actually ingest a potion and a topical solution would flow >right through him. In _Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator_, when Willy Wonka must administer a "potion" to a disembodied, ghost-like entity, he does it using a pesticide spray. Perhaps a similar "spraying" was what was done to Nick. (And perhaps this is how Quirrell would have administered the Elixir of Life to V.) -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sat Jun 16 21:53:03 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 14:53:03 -0700 Subject: OWLs Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010616143933.0346ad40@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21017 Okay, we've talked about who will die, who will fal in love, what the Order of the Phoenix is, what measures will be taken against V, and even what direction Snape's sex life might take. But there's one thing we *know* will happen in Book 5 that hasn't been discussed at all yet: Harry, Ron, and Hermione will be taking their OWLs. How do you think they'll each do? What do you think is the nature of the test? Will they have to do elaborate incantations? Will they have to brave an obstacle course? Will Hagrid supply the beasties? Any ideas? -- Dave From mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 22:11:42 2001 From: mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com (Michi) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] OWLs In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010616143933.0346ad40@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20010616221142.27677.qmail@web3206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21018 --- Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > Okay, we've talked about who will die, who will fal > in love, > what the Order of the Phoenix is, what measures will > be > taken against V, and even what direction Snape's sex > life > might take. But there's one thing we *know* will > happen > in Book 5 that hasn't been discussed at all yet: > Harry, Ron, > and Hermione will be taking their OWLs. How do you > think > they'll each do? What do you think is the nature of > the test? > Will they have to do elaborate incantations? Will > they have > to brave an obstacle course? Will Hagrid supply the > beasties? > Any ideas? Oo~h... good point... I foresee it like this: Ron and Harry both will be hounded to no end by Hermione about how they need to be studying for the OWLs, no matter what sorts of baddies, etc that Harry and them will have to deal with. (Trust Hermione never to shirk her academic work.) Since she has already been taking her practice OWLs for over a year or so, she will, of course, most likely get the highest OWLs. Harry and Ron will come out with a good number of them as well; Harry will likely get more than Ron on the base fact that Harry probably knows a bit more than Ron thanks to the preparations he had to do for the Triwizard tournament (thinking of the last task specifically...) I always imagined the OWLs something like the PSAT or maybe the SAT, whereas the NEWTs (er, was that what Percy was taking?) something like graduate-school level tests. What would they have to do...? Michi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 22:16:03 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:16:03 -0000 Subject: OWLs In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010616143933.0346ad40@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9gglr4+5uj4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21019 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > ...there's one thing we *know* will happen in Book 5 that hasn't been discussed at all yet: Harry, Ron,and Hermione will be taking their OWLs. How do you think they'll each do? What do you think is the nature of the test? Will they have to do elaborate incantations? Will they have to brave an obstacle course? Will Hagrid supply the beasties? Any ideas? > -- Dave This is a GREAT discussion item! Well, my guess is as good as yours on what will actually make up the OWLs. I see it as a series of tests involving everything under the sun...perhaps the tests are somewhat individualized (Ron and Harry wouldn't have Arithmancy on their tests and Hermione would...Hermione would have Divination BASICS only and Muggle Studies on her OWLs...amongst the other things- -Ron and Harry might have more advanced Divination questions on their tests...the test results would reflect a cumulative score of what that particular Hogwarts pupil has learned through their particular path in coursework). Whether the test would be all paperwork or actual application of the knowledge acquired by the student or a combination of both remains to be seen. I see Hermione driving everyone UP THEWALL because she will probably want to get the best OWLs score everseen...perhaps Rowling will surprise us in that Hermione does more poorly than we though capable and Harry's score is higher...I don't know for sure there. I definitely don't see Ron blowing everyone else's score out of the water BUT PERHAPS THIS WILL SERVE AS A MAJOR CATALYST FOR THE R/H ship....Ron, with an awareness that he will need to put on a respectable performance on his OWLs may begin to study intensely with Hermione, whose high-strung attitude will be tempered by Ron's witty remarks and sarcasm....maybe he'll appreciate her bookwormishness more and her natural intelligence and cleverness even more as she helps him...perhaps Hermione will come to see Ron's humor as something of a "relaxant" and maybe at moments she won't feel so crazy...might even laugh....and with each appreciating the other's best qualities during such an important, stressful time...well, you know.... ;) Harry will be around for their studies as he is studying too...and might catch some of the "fireworks"...may even intervene and encourage one of them (R/H)to go after/be more receptive to...the other. :) OK, so this is a response to the OWLs posting that has element of a SHIP post...but can't you all just see this possibility? N From catz109 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 22:19:23 2001 From: catz109 at hotmail.com (catz109 at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:19:23 -0000 Subject: What is the Quiz Message-ID: <9ggm1b+atqv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21020 I have no idea what this quiz thing is, could you tell me? Email me, as this is OT i belive :) ~*Rebekah*~ From catz109 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 22:21:38 2001 From: catz109 at hotmail.com (catz109 at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:21:38 -0000 Subject: End of and Era Message-ID: <9ggm5i+8c12@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21021 JKR said that book #5 will have an "End of an era" I think it may be Dumbledore, but then I'm not sure if she would give us a huge hint toward it like that Rebekah From michelleapostolides at lineone.net Sat Jun 16 22:52:00 2001 From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:52:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OWLs? Explanation of equivalent UK Muggle exams References: <20010616221142.27677.qmail@web3206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002001c0f6b6$f57f1100$6c487bd5@tmeltcds> No: HPFGUIDX 21022 > I always imagined the OWLs something like the PSAT or > maybe the SAT, I have no idea what PSAT is, but OWLs are equivalent to the exams Muggles take at 16 - two years before they leave school. Usually 8 to ten subjects are studied. The results of these exams generally determine what subjects you go on to study at.... whereas the NEWTs (er, was that what > Percy was taking?) something like graduate-school > level tests. What would they have to do...? Nothing like them !!! NEWTS are equivalent to A level - the exams that 16 - 18 year olds study for. Usually 3 or sometimes 4 subject areas. The results of these are used to determine what University one attends and even what course in some cases. Good A levels ( Grades A to C ) are also a way into some corporate training schemes. Michelle > Michi > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From kiary91 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 16 23:16:32 2001 From: kiary91 at hotmail.com (Cait Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:16:32 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Has anyone named a child after HP characters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21023 I don't know, but there is a "Harry Potter" litter of Cardigan corgis, several of whom are on Corgi-L. Golden Snitch is the one I remember, callname is (of course) Harry. I believe there is also a Ginny and a Hermione in the litter... ^_^ Cait (and corgis) >From: rowanbrookt at yahoo.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Has anyone named a child after HP characters? >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:49:51 -0000 > >I would say that IMO that is fanatical > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From fyregirl at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 17 00:00:28 2001 From: fyregirl at cfl.rr.com (M. Barnett) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 00:00:28 -0000 Subject: Trolls, OWLs, and such ... Message-ID: <9ggrus+a0m2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21024 I don't like Trolls. 'nuff said. :) OWLs: I'm sure glad I didn't go to Hogwarts. I am a horrible test taker. What do they do for students that get bad cases of test anxiety? I don't get anxious, but I do become a moron for a while. If you are an exceptional student normally and all of a sudden you get, say 1 or 2 OWL's, would they make special tests? I know they do that for students in the US school system (of course, and I have been in other schools systems (NZ) so I can say this with some authority, the US school system does have something to be desired, compared to other places!) I'm most like Albus Dumbledore. I have a few words to say on the subject: Hurracaneous, Torrential, Blustery, Superfluous. I feel better now! :) Can someone please tell me where in Canon I can find the references to the race of Cho, Angelina, etc.? I've read all 4 books like 15 times each and I apparently keep missing the refernces. Well, I'm back off to save the world. Thank you for your time! Michelle :) p.s. Did anyone enjoy how I snuck the quiz result into an ON topic post! :) woohoo!! (Sorry list guru's, I just had to!) From sprsun at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 00:29:48 2001 From: sprsun at yahoo.com (Cai Hui) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 08:29:48 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 984 References: <992728320.1460.14661.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003901c0f6c4$aa76a8e0$84a55dcb@cagsdic> No: HPFGUIDX 21025 Milz wrote > 'Cho' is a Japanese name, like the character 'Cho-Cho San' in the > opera "Madame Butterfly". According to a Baby Names book at the > office, the name 'Cho' means 'butterfly'-----something for the > Animagi speculators and the Patronus speculators to think about. > > ;-)Milz OTOH, "Cho" could be a Chinese name as well. It could mean "autumn" (the chinese translator thought so), which is a plausible enough name for a Chinese girl. Or it could mean "surpass," which is kind of boyish, but not so bad either. Hui _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From margdean at erols.com Sat Jun 16 23:58:04 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:58:04 -0400 Subject: Cho's Name References: <992728320.1460.14661.l10@yahoogroups.com> <003901c0f6c4$aa76a8e0$84a55dcb@cagsdic> Message-ID: <3B2BF28C.52106CBB@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21026 Cai Hui wrote: > > Milz wrote > > > 'Cho' is a Japanese name, like the character 'Cho-Cho San' in the > > opera "Madame Butterfly". According to a Baby Names book at the > > office, the name 'Cho' means 'butterfly'-----something for the > > Animagi speculators and the Patronus speculators to think about. > > OTOH, "Cho" could be a Chinese name as well. It could mean "autumn" > (the chinese translator thought so), which is a plausible enough name for > a Chinese girl. Or it could mean "surpass," which is kind of boyish, but > not so bad either. Cool! So what are the possibilities for "Chang" as a name? Do they go together to make something interesting? --Margaret Dean From margdean at erols.com Sat Jun 16 23:59:42 2001 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:59:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's age References: <20010616211456.35172.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B2BF2EE.F26BB27@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21027 Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > > --- dragon_starling at yahoo.com wrote: > > When discusing age cut-off I think we should take > > into thought > > the 'muggle-born issue' as I call it. I think that > > all muggle borns > > who would normally be going into their secondary > > school years (is > > If I remember correctly in the States the cutoff is > you have to be 6 by Jan 15th to go to kindergarden so > that may be how it works in the magical world Actually you have to be 5 by the cutoff date (which varies) to go to kindergarten in the States. Six is the age for first grade. --Margaret Dean From jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net Sun Jun 17 00:50:53 2001 From: jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net (Jennye & Michael Woolf) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 17:50:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OWLs In-Reply-To: <9gglr4+5uj4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0f6c7$903c2740$d8094a42@Dexter> No: HPFGUIDX 21028 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > ...there's one thing we *know* will happen in Book 5 that hasn't been discussed at all yet: Harry, Ron,and Hermione will be taking their OWLs. How do you think they'll each do? What do you think is the nature of the test? Will they have to do elaborate incantations? Will they have to brave an obstacle course? Will Hagrid supply the beasties? Any ideas? > -- Dave I've been giving this some thought. I am thinking that OWLs at least to some extent allow magic to be done outside of Hogwarts - maybe some basic wizarding skills, and depending on what you pass and how many O.W.L.s you get depends on what you are allowed to do. They are often called underage wizards, but while there has been a mention of O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s, the specifics haven't been mentioned (all except the apparating test, which I suppose may or may not be a part of N.E.W.T.s. I'm guessing they aren't since you cannot apparate at Hogwarts. But since it is a difficult task to accomplish and Hogwarts is supposed to prepare them as wizards, you would think it would come up. Maybe they do offsite training...? Being as he would never be able to use magic really at the Dursley's without them totally melting down, I don't know if I'm right. If Harry were allowed to use magic away from Hogwarts, it would sure make his summers more interesting! Also, based on the fact that Hermione hs been taking practice O.W.L. tests, they seem to be written, at least to some extent, although it would make a great deal of sense if at least some of them would be practical. I also think they are more standardized, so Arithmancy and Divination and Muggle Studies wouldn't appear, but transfiguration, charms, potions, DADA and history would make appearances. Which would make sense that they test the basic skill sthat wizards need to have and not focus so much on the specialized skills that come with the elective courses. Jennye [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net Sun Jun 17 01:02:24 2001 From: jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net (Jennye & Michael Woolf) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:02:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Various Threads In-Reply-To: <20010615200701.41941.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000501c0f6c9$2beb8a90$d8094a42@Dexter> No: HPFGUIDX 21029 < 6. Wizard Wheezes: I'm sure the twins used magic illegally to develop Ton-Tongue Toffees and Canary Cremes. They didn't get in trouble because A)if someone was monitoring magic use, there were no Muggles nearby and any magic being done at The Burrow could be assumed to be done by adults and B) no one told on them. If you read the Ministry letter Harry received in CoS, it clearly states they had been *informed* of a Hover Charm being used. Clearly, Dobby -- who has his own brand of magic -- used a simple charm Harry could know and then made sure the Ministry knew. I've posted this recently, but my theory on this is that after the O.W.L.s are taken, some magic is allowed because they will have passed at least some level to no longer be fully considered "underage" wizards. In this light, Fred and George would have been allowed to do magic at home since they passed at the end of the previous school year(although with fewer O.W.L.s then their mother would have liked) This is of course JMHO Jennye [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nosillaps13 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 01:28:08 2001 From: nosillaps13 at yahoo.com (Allison ) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 01:28:08 -0000 Subject: OWLs In-Reply-To: <20010616221142.27677.qmail@web3206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gh138+5efk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21030 --- Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > Okay, we've talked about who will die, who will fal > in love, > what the Order of the Phoenix is, what measures will > be > taken against V, and even what direction Snape's sex > life > might take. But there's one thing we *know* will > happen > in Book 5 that hasn't been discussed at all yet: > Harry, Ron, > and Hermione will be taking their OWLs. How do you > think > they'll each do? What do you think is the nature of > the test? > Will they have to do elaborate incantations? Will > they have > to brave an obstacle course? Will Hagrid supply the > beasties? Any ideas? I think, of course, Hermione will get the most, then Harry, then Ron. This could very well be a source of tension, like Scabbers and the Tournament were, with Ron being angry and jealous. And I imagine the tests would change according to the class. Surely a standardized test would be gov't-regulated, so a teacher probably wouldn't make it up. Standardized tests (at least in the US Muggle world) are written, but I bet they have some more practical tests at Hogwarts, actually performing spells and making potions and that sort of thing. But how many OWLs can you get? The highest score mentioned is 12, but it didn't sound like that was the most you could get. Is it one OWL per class? In which case 12 would seem like more then you get theoretically get. *counts on fingers* There are 7 required classes, and it seems like everybody takes 2 extra classes out of 4 choices starting 3rd year, which makes 9, so how do you get 12 OWLs? Even if you took OWL tests for the 2 classes you didn't take (which would be really unfair), that's still 11. Unless Quidditch counts. But Percy got 12 and he didn't play Quidditch. So, does this mirror some British test? If anyone has any idea how this sort of test would work, please let me know. Thanks! Allison From dangermouse42 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 01:37:28 2001 From: dangermouse42 at yahoo.com (DM) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 01:37:28 -0000 Subject: Intro and Lucius may not be evil Message-ID: <9gh1ko+d5se@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21031 Hi! I joined a few days ago and now I'm finally getting around to introducing myself. My handle is DangerMouse and I'm a twenty-year- old college senior majoring in Biology (Environment, Evolution, and Behavior concentration). I've very much enjoyed looking through some of the old posts on this list. And here I was thinking that my sister and I were the only one's arguing Harry Potter this deeply. *smiles* While I'm here, I thought I'd air out a few thoughts of my own. If this has been discussed before, I apologize (the archive for this list is very, very large). I think my sister is tired of hearing my talk about this and I'd also like to get some fresh opinions. Here goes: I don't think Lucius Malfoy is a bad guy. I don't think he wants to be working for Voldemort and was most likely coerced into doing it. And yes, I have some evidence to back this up. Lucius may be a complete jerk, but siding with Voldemort seems like a very, very, very risky venture on his part, especially considering his family is so old (this is all IMHO of course). Plus, we know that Dark Lords have risen and been defeated in recent history before Voldemort ("Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945..." - HP and the SS, Ch6). Given that I believe that Lucius must be around the same age as Arthur Weasley, it's not unlikely that he was alive during that time. Why risk getting involved in something that has already failed once? Also, Lucius ran away from the Dark Mark when it was shot up in the sky during the Quidditch World Cup and sent his son to hide in the forest when the Death Eaters started running around. If he was a loyal and happy Death Eater, why send his son away from the campsite? Why not just let him sit in the tent or even join in? Why run away from the Dark Mark? Another thing that needs mentioning is his large donations to St. Mungos. It seems strange to me for JKR to mention that specifically, unless it had some kind of meaning. Also, the very fact the he was found innocent in his connections with Voldemort by the Ministry leaves one wondering - surely they used some kind of truth potion on the defendants. Finally, the most convincing part about this is how much Voldemort supporters seem to dislike Draco. Scabbers (Peter) attacked Draco on the train to Hogwarts in the first book; Mad-Eye Moody (or rather Crouch) turned him into a ferret and slammed him around the hallway. Also, one of the biggest non-supporters of Voldemort, Severus Snape, really, really seems to like Draco. An individual with whom I was discussing this with through e-mail summed it up best - "The really convincing part is the Snape/Draco dynamic, why would Snape as a Death Eater turned Spy favour the son of a Death Eater unless he also had wavering loyalties?" Another interesting thing to note is the conversation that took place and Severus' reaction to it in GoF Chapter 26: "Look, I saw Voldemort come back!" Harry shouted. He tried to get out of bed again, but Mrs. Weasley forced him back. "I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy--" Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge. "Malfoy was cleared!" said Fudge, visibaly affronted. "A very old family -- donations to excellent causes --" Odd reaction for Snape to have if Lucius was really a heartless Death Eater. It also is good to note that, once more, Lucius' donations to 'excellent causes' was brought up again. Some say this was a way for Lucius to gain power for the Ministry, but maybe it was really a way for him to assuage some of his guilt. The idea of Lucius having 'wavering loyalties' is a very compelling one indeed. Of course, you can argue his actions in the Second book, what with diary and Dobby and all. However, he was not out of line with he treatment of the house-elf as far as Wizarding society is concerned, and as far as we know, he could have been forced by other Death Eaters to make use of the Diary. Anyway, I would like to know what everybody thinks. I don't claim that Lucius is a saint. He was probably dabbling in the Dark Arts long before Voldemort approached him, but that doesn't automatically make you evil. Thanks for taking the time to read this! DangerMouse dangermouse42 at yahoo.com "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." - James Branch Cabell, "The Silver Stallion" From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 17 01:44:36 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:44:36 -0700 Subject: Ginny + Bill - Hermione dying? - Homosexuality - Age - OWLs - Race Message-ID: <3B2C0B83.521D9011@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21032 Danette Schardt-Cordova According to my calculations(if I didn't do them wrong > that is) Ginny was aprox. 2-7 when Bill went to Hogwarts. My time line (I need some place to post it: my folder on HPff?) says Ginny was born in the July-1981 thru June-1982 year, which was Bill's sixth year at Hogwarts, as he was born in the July-1965 thru June-1966 year IMO. I was surprised that I didn't find Bill's birthyear on The Lexicon; I've noticed that the birthyears Steve states for some characters tend to be similar to mine but not identical: for example, I have TMR born in 1926 and Steve has him born in 1927. Madhuri wrote: > Why is it that it's more probably Ron will die, rather than Hermione? Hermione is JKR's Mary-Sue, so for Hermione to die, JKR would have to be suicidal. I personally can't imagine Hermione dying unless EVERYONE dies, but I can imagine the whole wizarding world being destroyed and everyone except Hermione dying, and Hermione being left to write down the whole story for us Muggles. Neil wrote: > It will always be an issue until people stop assuming heterosexuality as a default. Umm, Neil, I want there to be gay characters in HP for the sake of realism and political correctness and more possible ships, but the famous Kinsey statistic that 10% of people are pretty much homosexual and 90% of people are pretty much heterosexual implies that assuming any newly met person is heterosexual will be right 9 out of 10 times -- a probability rate high enough that it will probably stay the default assumption. A higher probability rate than the assumption that any undescribed person mentioned in a fiction or a news article is white, which was discussed recently on OT. Dragon Star-ling wrote: > I think that all muggle borns who would normally be going > into their secondary school years (is that what it's called in > the UK?) would start going to Hogwarts. Hermione's parents > probly decided Hermione was ready to start school though > she'd be among the youngest. That is one of the problems I have with JKR's statement that Hogwarts has a magic quill that writes the name of each magic child born in Britain (and Ireland?) in a book when it is born, so each year McGonagall checks the book to find the students who were born 11 years ago: if Divination is such an imprecise science, how does the quill know which kids are going to start school early or skip a grade? My other objection has to be with kids born in one place who move (usually with their families) to another place before they reach a double-digit age. If they were born in Britain and emigrated to Australia, perhaps Hogwarts would still want to invite them, but their parents might prefer to send them to the Australian wizarding school so as not to be so far away. And if they were born in USA but emigrated to Britain, their parents would probably want them to go to Hogwarts, which is not only closer, but possibly the best wizarding school in the world. And they wouldn't get an invitation from Hogwarts because their name wasn't in the book because they weren't born in Britain... For all these reasons, I think it would be much better if the magic quill wrote the names (& addresses) on the Hogwarts admission letters rather than writing than writing them down in advance. > I personaly think that the cut-off would allow a little > room for those who are born in Sept. so they wouldn't > have to wait a year. As someone already said, no matter WHEN the cut-off date is, SOMEONE will have to wait a year. If the cut-off date is October 31, then the kid born on November 1 has to wait a whole year just because of being born one day late, If the cut-off date is December 31, then the kid born on January 1 has to wait a whole year. When I was very young, the LAUSD (Los Angeles) schools dealt with this by having TWO tracks: kids who entered school in September and kids who entered school in February. Kids who started in September would have summer vacation between first grade and second grade, etc, and graduate high school in June as the Class of 1965a, while kids who started in February would have summer vacation between first semester and second semester of first grade, etc, and graduate in January as the Class of 1966b (yes, within each calendar year, b was before a). When they switched to everyone had to start in September, kids on the b track got a choice between spending one semester or three semesters in the grade that they were in at the time the change was announced. But the school district put a lot of pressure on parents to choose three semesters instead of one semester... Dave Hardenbrook Oz wrote: > Harry, Ron, and Hermione will be taking their OWLs. > How do you think they'll each do? What do you think > is the nature of the test? Someone who took O-levels before they were turned into GCSEs would know better than this USAmerican, but I think that the OWLs are entirely or almost entirely written exams, with essay questions. I think there is one OWL per subject and there are 15 subjects tested. I think the average student would take 10 OWLs and pass with mostly C+s. I think Hermione will take all 15 and get A or A+ on all of them and be written in the next edition of HOGWARTS, A HISTORY as the students who did best ever on the OWLs. I think Harry and Ron will take 12 OWLs and Harry will get Bs and B+s and Ron will get C+s and Bs, and Mrs. Weasley will be torn between her desire to scream at him for not getting As like Bill, Charlie, and Percy, and her relief that at least he did better than the twins. Fyregirl wrote: > What do they do for students that get bad cases of test anxiety? I think it would be very British to just let them fail. But I like to think that Hogwarts is better than that, and I feel sure that Dumbledore is better than that, and I imagine Madam Pomfrey doling out psychoactive potions (calmness, alertness, confidence) to the students as they line up to get their Anti-Cheating Quills. Allison wrote: > There are 7 required classes, and it seems like everybody > takes 2 extra classes out of 4 choices starting 3rd year, which > makes 9, so how do you get 12 OWLs? Let's try to guess the subjects of OWLs. ----History of Magic might have several: Britain before 1000 AD, Britain from 1000 AD to 1603 AD, Britain from 1603 AD to Now, Europe, The Rest of the World. ----Charms could also have several: Charms on Inanimate Objects Charms on Living Beings Charms on Humans ----That was eight. How many others? Transfiguration Potions Astronomy Divination Herbology Muggle Studies Arithmancy ---What did I leave out? Fyregirl wrote: > Can someone please tell me where in Canon I can find > the references to the race of Cho, Angelina, etc.? I don't think JKR told us Cho's race: just her name and that she is even shorter than Harry, who is short. IIRC Angelina is described as "a tall Black girl" when Fred asks her to be his date to the Yule Ball. -- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From sprsun at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 01:47:46 2001 From: sprsun at yahoo.com (Cai Hui) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:47:46 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cho's Name Message-ID: <006901c0f6cf$8a50fb00$84a55dcb@cagsdic> No: HPFGUIDX 21033 Margaret Dean wrote >> OTOH, "Cho" could be a Chinese name as well. It could mean "autumn" >> (the chinese translator thought so), which is a plausible enough name for >> a Chinese girl. Or it could mean "surpass," which is kind of boyish, but >> not so bad either. > > Cool! So what are the possibilities for "Chang" as a name? Do > they go together to make something interesting? Unfortunately not so easy. There're at least two possibilites for the surname "Chang." One of them came from a place name, but the character also means 1. chapter; verse; section. 2. order. 3. literary writing. 4. rules; regulations. 5. stamp, seal. 6. memorial to the throne. 7. badge; insignia; medal. The other is even more interesting. It is formed by two different characters which combined means "a long bow". The meaning of this surname could be: 1.to fix (a bowstring); to string (a musical instrument) 2. open; spread; stretch 3. set out, display. 4. expand, extend. 5. magnify, exaggerate. 6. look. 7.give free rein to, indulge. 8. (of a shop) start business; set up. 9. put to good use; give free play to 10. catch with a net; net; trap. It is also the name of one of the 28 Lunar Mansions. [Source: Chinese-English Dictionary (Shanghai Jiaotong University)] Choose what you like! Hui _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com Sun Jun 17 02:25:48 2001 From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle at bigpond.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:25:48 -0000 Subject: End of and Era In-Reply-To: <9ggm5i+8c12@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gh4fd+hpn1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21034 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catz109 at h... wrote: > JKR said that book #5 will have an "End of an era" I think it may be > Dumbledore, but then I'm not sure if she would give us a huge hint > toward it like that > > Rebekah It could also mean that there is a *massive* sex scandal (not involving any of the teachers) in the school and it ceases to be co- educational. Hence, end of an era. Rowena PS wouldn't that make a delightfully wicked ff ? From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 17 02:38:18 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:38:18 -0700 Subject: Cho's Name - Sex Scandal Era Message-ID: <3B2C181A.33B23BFC@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21035 Margaret Dean wrote: > So what are the possibilities for "Chang" as a name? Do > they go together to make something interesting? and Cai Hui replied: > The other is even more interesting. (snip) > 10. catch with a net; net; trap Is that relevant to a Seeker catching the Snitch? Rowena jacqbeagle wrote: > It could also mean that there is a *massive* sex scandal (not > involving any of the teachers) in the school and it ceases to be > co- educational. Hence, end of an era. Probably the parents would be more upset by a single-sex sex scandal than a co-ed one. -- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 02:45:15 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 02:45:15 -0000 Subject: End of and Era In-Reply-To: <9ggm5i+8c12@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gh5jr+iqmv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21036 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catz109 at h... wrote: > JKR said that book #5 will have an "End of an era" I think it may be > Dumbledore, but then I'm not sure if she would give us a huge hint > toward it like that > Are you sure it is Book #5? >From an interview with Rowling July 18, 2000/CBC Newsworld: Question/Statement: This is the crucial book, because after this book, everything changes. The whole world seems to go through a radical transformation. Answer: Well, it's the end of an era. Book Four is the end of an era for Harry. He's been very protected until now. Interview with the BBC Online - Newsround: Question: And how vital is Book Four in the 7 book series for Harry? Answer: Crucial. Book Four's a very, very, VERY important book. Something very important happens in Book Four. But also, it's literally a central book. It's almost the heart of the series, and it's pivotal......but it's a very important book. From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu Sun Jun 17 03:11:28 2001 From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:11:28 -0000 Subject: OWLs In-Reply-To: <3B2C0B83.521D9011@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9gh750+sicq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21037 Here are the 12 subjects that I remember: ***"Core" Curriculum: Transfiguration Potions Charms History of Magic Defence Against the Dark Arts Herbology Astronomy ***Electives: Care of Magical Creatures Divination Muggle Studies Arithmancy Runes IIRC, the first seven were taken by all students starting in the first year; the remaining five were electives. I think that normal students took three of the five (?). By fifth year, when OWLs are taken, each student will normally have taken 7+3=10 out of the 12 possible subjects. One way to get more than 12 possible OWL exams would be to have *two* exams in certain key subjects, as Rita suggests below. My money's on Transfiguration, Potions, Charms, and/or History of Magic to have two parts. This is not unheard of: English is often divided into composition, reading comprehension, and grammar; math into algebra, geometry, calculus; history into different eras and locations; etc. However, I doubt that there would be more than two OWL exams in any single subject. Assuming "double" exams in three key subjects, a typical student could take up to 13 OWLs (but might opt to sit for only his 10-12 best subjects). Hermione has taken at least one year of all 12 subjects, so she could sit for up to 15 OWLs -- But I wonder if she would have the guts to try Divination? -Jim Flanagan --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston wrote: > Danette Schardt-Cordova >> There are 7 required classes, and it seems like everybody >> takes 2 extra classes out of 4 choices starting 3rd year, which >> makes 9, so how do you get 12 OWLs? > Let's try to guess the subjects of OWLs. > ----History of Magic might have several: > Britain before 1000 AD, > Britain from 1000 AD to 1603 AD, > Britain from 1603 AD to Now, > Europe, > The Rest of the World. > ----Charms could also have several: > Charms on Inanimate Objects > Charms on Living Beings > Charms on Humans > ----That was eight. How many others? > Transfiguration > Potions > Astronomy > Divination > Herbology > Muggle Studies > Arithmancy > ---What did I leave out? From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 17 03:12:21 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 22:12:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] End of and Era References: <9ggm5i+8c12@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B2C2015.208907E7@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21038 catz109 at hotmail.com wrote: > JKR said that book #5 will have an "End of an era" I think it may be > Dumbledore, but then I'm not sure if she would give us a huge hint > toward it like that Where did she say this? Can we have a source? Many times what she actually *said* and what everyone *thinks* she said are different, and it's good to see the words themselves. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tmayor at mediaone.net Sun Jun 17 03:15:46 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:15:46 -0000 Subject: so what *was* crucial? (was End of an Era) In-Reply-To: <9gh5jr+iqmv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gh7d2+6v7p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21039 koinonia02 at y... > quoted from an interview with Rowling with the BBC Online - Newsround: > > Question: And how vital is Book Four in the 7 book series for Harry? > > Answer: Crucial. Book Four's a very, very, VERY important book. > Something very important happens in Book Four. But also, it's > literally a central book. It's almost the heart of the series, and > it's pivotal......but it's a very important book. So, in hindsight, what *was* crucial in Book Four? Plotwise, it seems clear that it's the return of Voldemort to his body. But character-developmentwise (or, nicelier put, Harrywise), I guess it would be his meeting Voldemort face to face (no pun intended re: Quirrel's turban in SS/PS). But maybe more crucial is Harry's direct witnessing of the death of innocents at Voldemort's hand? I think Harry's more afraid of this--hurting innocent people and more personally people who love him--than he is of losing his life, one-on- one, to Voldemort ~Rosmerta From nosillaps13 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 03:22:29 2001 From: nosillaps13 at yahoo.com (Allison ) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:22:29 -0000 Subject: End of and Era In-Reply-To: <9gh5jr+iqmv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gh7pl+j56o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21040 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > > JKR said that book #5 will have an "End of an era" I think it may > be > > Dumbledore, but then I'm not sure if she would give us a huge hint > > toward it like that > > > > catz109 at h... wrote: > Are you sure it is Book #5? > I'm positive JKR said in an interview w/ the Dallas Morning News Book 5 was "the end of an era." I don't think Dumbledore will die - he's too important. He runs the anti-Voldemort group and he has physically saved Harry's life on more then one occasion (SS, GoF). But I think it *is* likely he will be removed from his position as Headmaster. After all, the Minister of Magic doesn't want to believe V came back. If Dumbledore is actively fighting V (which I'm sure he will), Fudge might remove him, if he has the power to do so. And if he can't, he could pressure the school governors to do so. That's what I think "end of an era" means, but hey, that's just me. Allison From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 03:52:29 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:52:29 -0000 Subject: Intro and Lucius may not be evil In-Reply-To: <9gh1ko+d5se@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gh9ht+aih6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21041 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "DM" wrote: > Hi! > I joined a few days ago and now I'm finally getting around to > introducing myself. My handle is DangerMouse DangerMouse? Now that's an interesting handle ;) > > I don't think Lucius Malfoy is a bad guy. I don't think he wants to > be working for Voldemort and was most likely coerced into doing it. First off, let me say I enjoyed your post but I'm going to have to disagree with you already! I wouldn't mind if Lucius turned out to be a good guy but I have my serious doubts. > Lucius may be a complete jerk, but siding with Voldemort seems like a > very, very, very risky venture on his part, especially considering > his family is so old (this is all IMHO of course). Cos Ch 4, "Good day yourself, Mister Malfoy, and if the stories are true, you haven't sold me half of what's hidden in you manor..." CoS Ch 4, "Yeh should've ignored him, Arthur," said Hagrid, almost lifting Mr. Weasley off his feet as he straightened his robes. "Rotten ter the core, the whole family, everyone knows that -- -no Malfoy's worth listernin' ter--bad blood, that's what it is--- I don't believe there is any doubt that the Malfoy family dabbles in the Dark side. They always have and evidently find the risk worth taking. They are a rich, powerful family. It's obvious that Lucius uses his money and power to get what he wants, regardless of who is in the way. Plus, we know > that Dark Lords have risen and been defeated in recent history before > Voldemort ("Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the > dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945..." - HP and the SS, Ch6). Given > that I believe that Lucius must be around the same age as Arthur > Weasley, it's not unlikely that he was alive during that time. Why > risk getting involved in something that has already failed once? Why does anyone risk such things? Power? Hate? Name a time in history when there hasn't been someone who was evil and was defeated. The next person always feels they will be the one to succeed. Maybe this is just a stepping stone for Lucius. Be one of Voldemort's followers and then try for the number one spot some day. > Also, Lucius ran away from the Dark Mark when it was shot up in the > sky during the Quidditch World Cup and sent his son to hide in the > forest when the Death Eaters started running around. If he was a > loyal and happy Death Eater, why send his son away from the > campsite? Why not just let him sit in the tent or even join in? Why > run away from the Dark Mark? Where does it say Lucius ran away from the Dark Mark? As Voldemort says to Lucius: "Your exploits at the Quidditch World cup were fun, I daresay... Draco is still rather young at this time. Also, why take the chance of Draco getting caught with the DE's? I don't think he was told to run away from the DE's but to just get out of the way. > Another thing that needs mentioning is his large donations to St. > Mungos. It seems strange to me for JKR to mention that specifically, > unless it had some kind of meaning. Outward appearance. I sincerely don't believe he is giving from his heart. After all, as you point out later, even Fudge uses this example. It's just a plan to make it look like he is a good, decent guy. Also, the very fact the he was > found innocent in his connections with Voldemort by the Ministry > leaves one wondering - surely they used some kind of truth potion on > the defendants. Like the truth potion they used on Sirius? It's obvious that the truth potion isn't used often. Money can buy many things. Sometimes it can buy an innocent verdict. > Finally, the most convincing part about this is how much Voldemort > supporters seem to dislike Draco. Scabbers (Peter) attacked Draco on > the train to Hogwarts in the first book; Wasn't that because Draco came around Ron? I don't really remember. Mad-Eye Moody (or rather > Crouch) turned him into a ferret and slammed him around the hallway. But Moody (Crouch Jr.) feels that Lucius deserted his master. Crouch Jr. felt the same way about all the DE's. He felt he was the loyal one. > Also, one of the biggest non-supporters of Voldemort, Severus Snape, > really, really seems to like Draco. > An individual with whom I was discussing this with through e-mail > summed it up best - > "The really convincing part is the Snape/Draco dynamic, why would > Snape as a Death Eater turned Spy favour the son of a Death Eater > unless he also had wavering loyalties?" There are many theories on this. Some believe it is all a bigger plan by Snape. He has to appear to still favor the DE's. Word needs to get back to those parents how much he favors his house. Then again, others don't believe in this at all. > Another interesting thing to note is the conversation that took place > and Severus' reaction to it in GoF Chapter 26: > > "Look, I saw Voldemort come back!" Harry shouted. He tried to get > out of bed again, but Mrs. Weasley forced him back. "I saw the Death > Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy--" > Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's > eyes flew back to Fudge. > "Malfoy was cleared!" said Fudge, visibaly affronted. "A very old > family -- donations to excellent causes --" > > Odd reaction for Snape to have if Lucius was really a heartless Death > Eater. Not really. Maybe Snape has a deep hatred for Lucius. He could be thinking he can't wait to get his hands (or teeth) on Lucius. Actually, several people have excellent ideas about this scene but I just can't remember them at this time. Oh, here are some: Snape is concerned that Harry will start mentioning DE's who were at the meeting and since Snape was there he is afraid Harry will mention him (these aren't necessarily my ideas but these are some I have heard). Snape doesn't want Harry to mention any of the DE's. It would interfere with what Snape has to do. It is just a red herring (this I don't believe). Honestly, I'm not sure what to believe about this little scene but I do think it is important and that it has to do with Lucius being mentioned, not just the DE's. > It also is good to note that, once more, Lucius' donations > to 'excellent causes' was brought up again. Some say this was a way > for Lucius to gain power for the Ministry, but maybe it was really a > way for him to assuage some of his guilt. Doubt it! > The idea of Lucius having 'wavering loyalties' is a very compelling > one indeed. Of course, you can argue his actions in the Second book, > what with diary and Dobby and all. However, he was not out of line > with he treatment of the house-elf as far as Wizarding society is > concerned, Actually, he was out of line with his treatment of the house-elf. I can't go back and look everything up but he abused Dobby. It wasn't just a matter of owning a house-elf, it was his abuse of one. > and as far as we know, he could have been forced by other > Death Eaters to make use of the Diary. I don't see anyone forcing Lucius to do anything. > Anyway, I would like to know what everybody thinks. I don't claim > that Lucius is a saint. He was probably dabbling in the Dark Arts > long before Voldemort approached him, but that doesn't automatically > make you evil. Since I'm quoting interviews tonight, let me bring this one up. In the BBC Online - Newsround interview, JKR was talking about prejudice. She mentions that since the beginning of PoS prejudice is a very strong theme. Harry finds out that he is a half-blood; to a wizard like *Lucius Malfoy*, he will never be a true wizard. I don't know. I just get the impression Lucius is rotten and evil to the core. As for Draco, I'm still crossing my fingers for him. > > Thanks for taking the time to read this! I loved it! I won't ask you if you believe the Malfoy family could be vampires as I've been accused of drinking butterbeer ^_~ Koinonia From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 04:03:02 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 04:03:02 -0000 Subject: End of and Era/correction In-Reply-To: <9gh7pl+j56o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gha5m+m83q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21042 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Allison " wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > > > JKR said that book #5 will have an "End of an era" I think it may > > be > > > Dumbledore, but then I'm not sure if she would give us a huge > hint > > > toward it like that > > > > > > > catz109 at h... wrote: > > Are you sure it is Book #5? Just to make a correction here :-) Catz109 wrote that Book #5 will have an "End of an era". I said it was Book #4 and quoted from an interview JKR gave. I don't know where Catz109 got her information but would like to know. > But I think it *is* likely he will be removed from his position as > Headmaster. After all, the Minister of Magic doesn't want to believe > V came back. If Dumbledore is actively fighting V (which I'm sure he > will), Fudge might remove him, if he has the power to do so. And if > he can't, he could pressure the school governors to do so. > > That's what I think "end of an era" means, but hey, that's just me. Removing Dumbledore from Hogwarts would surely mean the end of an era! What a change it would be. Especially when Lucius is made Headmaster. Koinonia From bugganeer at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 04:44:00 2001 From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 04:44:00 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's crime In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ghcig+mo9n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21043 Hagrid had a beast hidden in the dungeon area. The beast was believed to have killed Myrtle. He was of course set up by Tom Riddle. Bugg "Amy Z" wrote: >What, officially, did Hagrid get expelled for? >TR seems to be saying that he was literally expelled >for opening the Chamber of Secrets (CoS 17), but then >why does Binns insist that there's no such thing (CoS 9)? > From bugganeer at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 04:56:31 2001 From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 04:56:31 -0000 Subject: ___ Grindelwald In-Reply-To: <9gd5r8+bavh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ghd9v+oro4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21044 Good thought; What is Grindelwald's first name? Could be Marvolo. Bugg dfrankis wrote: >Grindelwald could have been Tom's grandfather >Marvolo, the then-current Heir of Slytherin. From andromache815 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 17 04:59:54 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:59:54 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius may not be evil References: <9gh9ht+aih6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21045 DM: Scabbers (Peter) attacked Draco on > the train to Hogwarts in the first book; Koinonia: Wasn't that because Draco came around Ron? I don't really remember. IIRC, Scabbers bit Crabbe or Goyle. I don't remember exactly which. I think they tried to attack Ron and Harry. As for Moody, it may be that, in similar circumstances, the real Moody would have transfigured a criminal to punish them better. I personally thought Moody was cool. I'm sure Crouch did a great job impersonating him. I'm with Koinonia on the Lucius thing. Vicky From find_sam at hotmail.com Sun Jun 17 08:00:11 2001 From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 08:00:11 -0000 Subject: Hermione dying? - Homosexuality - Age - OWLs - Race In-Reply-To: <3B2C0B83.521D9011@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9gho2c+8kt0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21046 Rita Winston wrote: > Madhuri wrote: > > > Why is it that it's more probably Ron will die, rather than Hermione? > > Hermione is JKR's Mary-Sue, so for Hermione to die, JKR would have to be > suicidal. I personally can't imagine Hermione dying unless EVERYONE > dies, but I can imagine the whole wizarding world being destroyed and > everyone except Hermione dying, and Hermione being left to write down > the whole story for us Muggles. I never realised it before, but I always had a back-of-the-mindset that if one of the trio were to die, it would be Ron. Maybe it's a gender thing; that if Hermione were to die, then the gender balance of the trio would flip out. Or maybe it's just the whole 'best friend' thing that JKR herself has acknowledged - it seems to be a fairly common literary thing that the main character's best friend dies. Naturally I can't think of any examples of the whole best- friend-dies literary thing, except for the death of a certain character (I won't spoil who it is) in the third book of John Marsden's 'Tomorrow' series. > Neil wrote: > > It will always be an issue until people stop assuming heterosexuality > as a default. > > Umm, Neil, I want there to be gay characters in HP for the sake of > realism and political correctness and more possible ships. Actually, I wouldn't like to see homosexual characters in HP canon. Not because I have any homophobic tendencies, but because I think it *wouldn't* be particularly realistic. From my own understanding and observations, very few homosexuals come out in highschool. As for political correctness, I'd feel disappointed if JKR put a homosexual character at Hogwarts simply for the sake of it. It'd be like her dropping in references to the Bible simply to please the God Squad. I also feel that a homosexual character wouldn't really have any 'place' in the series - while HP focuses on issues such as discrimination and tolerance, I think that JKR has (and will) covered these issues excellently, and does not need to use an actual homosexual character to further the theme. Also, JKR doing *anything* to the canon simply for the sake of 'more possible ships' would be, IMO, sacrilege :) but the > famous Kinsey statistic that 10% of people are pretty much homosexual > and 90% of people are pretty much heterosexual implies that assuming any > newly met person is heterosexual will be right 9 out of 10 times -- a > probability rate high enough that it will probably stay the default > assumption. This is OT (sorry!), but I always thought that there was never any real proof to backup these statistics. And (I know I'm contradicting myself a bit here), didn't Kinsey actually say something more along the lines of '10% of people are definitely hetero, 10% are definitely homo, and the other 80% are somewhere in between'? Don't flame me if I'm wrong, because I'm not sure about this. By the way, I nearly wrote 'the other 90% are somewhere in between' which just goes to show how good at Maths I am. > That is one of the problems I have with JKR's statement that Hogwarts > has a magic quill that writes the name of each magic child born in > Britain (and Ireland?) I have problems with the 'magical quill' statement too - it seems like something JKR made up as an afterthought. Having said that, though, it's still the wonderful little idea I wish *I* had made up! Rita wrote: If they were born in Britain and emigrated to Australia, perhaps Hogwarts would still want to invite them, but their parents might prefer to send them to the Australian wizarding school so as not to be so far away. Australian wizarding school. I love it! It reminds me of the XXXX version of Unseen University of Terry Pratchett's 'The Last Continent' (Motto: 'No Bloody Sheilas'). > Sam From mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 08:07:54 2001 From: mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com (Michi) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 01:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] so what *was* crucial? (was End of an Era) In-Reply-To: <9gh7d2+6v7p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010617080754.16092.qmail@web3206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21047 --- Rosmerta wrote: > But character-developmentwise (or, nicelier put, > Harrywise), I guess > it would be his meeting Voldemort face to face (no > pun intended re: > Quirrel's turban in SS/PS). But maybe more crucial > is Harry's direct > witnessing of the death of innocents at Voldemort's > hand? I think > Harry's more afraid of this--hurting innocent people > and more > personally people who love him--than he is of losing > his life, one-on- > one, to Voldemort I think you've got a very important point there. Harry has always known the consequences of what Voldemort is capable of ~ it's burned into his forehead and the fact that he has no parents ~ but I think Cedric's death really brings the full reality. Harry can't escape it -- not that he's really tried -- and Cedric's death is going to continue to have an effect on him. Harry's going to have to make a conscious decision -- if he hasn't already -- on what he's going to do about Voldemort. He knows the consequences now, that people can and have died and most likely will continue to die. He's going to have to deal with death as it comes closer and closer to him -- perhaps in the death of someone very close to him, but I think we've discussed that one enough ^.- Michi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From tabouli at unite.com.au Sun Jun 17 09:35:57 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:35:57 +1000 Subject: Ron, the Chinese Cho Message-ID: <000801c0f711$48736280$12846fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 21048 Too many ideas said: > Personally, I have just always imagined that Filch is probably gay--this only adds to the lonliness and isolation from society > that he feels at Hogwarts. But as Jamieson implied, that is not the main issue for him. His is squib shame. Hmm, possible. All the same, I've always found Filch's devotion to his cat a bit fishy. Makes me wonder if, under the influence of Quikspell and Magigro potion, Filch summoned all his weedy powers to turn someone into a cat, missed, and hit his beloved, then could never get her to turn human again, leaving him twisted and bitter... Emma: > "True, Ron can be a bit needy. But Ron is a teenage boy. As a teenage girl, I'm going to offer my expert opinion that ALL teenage boys are needy. He may not grow out of it completely, but it should lessen with time. All teenagers are somewhat insecure, and this tends to lead to neediness. I think Ron will get better as he gets older." Scott: > --I basically agree. As a teenage boy I'm going to offer the "expert" opinion that not *all of us* are *that* needy. I'm certainly needy to a certain extent, but I'm not that much like Ron, far more Harry or Hermione. I think the thing with Ron is that he, like Ginny, is too honest and upfront to hide his insecurity effectively. Ron is the classic little brother who's always lived in the shadow of someone else, and is therefore very defensive about anything that lowers his status still further (e.g. poverty, taunting from Draco, etc.) and craves attention and adulation of his own. Hermione, being JKR junior exaggerated, is therefore probably the "little girl who feels plain, and tries instead to gain control and praise by studying furiously and being better than everyone else at all things academic". Especially in PS/SS, she really is a kid with something to prove. Harry, having been raised in an atmosphere of hostility, contempt and disinterest, conceals how he feels (remember in CoS when Dumbledore asks him if he has anything to tell him and he goes through all his horrors privately and then replies "No"?) Hui: > Some Chinese families would be delighted if their daughter is married to a rich white kid whose parent works as some kind of an official (meaning a stable job!) It all depends on what kind of family she's from. There're all types of Chinese families! Some are more supportive of the kids' own choices and some are more old-fashioned. I also think there's a significant cultural difference between mainland Chinese families (you're from mainland China, right Hui?) and the overseas Chinese, particularly those living in Western countries (after all, China's changed a lot since most of the overseas Chinese left). The ol' migrant fossilisation often means that migrants, especially those to a very different culture (e.g. US, Australia) have more old fashioned values: migrants often take with them the customs of the time when they left the motherland. My mother's values are still pretty 1960s Malaysian Chinese, whereas my own visits to Malaysia and the international students from Malaysia I've met suggest a very different country. Margaret: > Well, I believe "Chang" is a Chinese name (rather than, say, Japanese or Korean), but I'm not sure about "Cho." She could be a mix, of course, father Chinese and mother something else. Milz: > 'Cho' is a Japanese name, like the character 'Cho-Cho San' in the opera "Madame Butterfly". According to a Baby Names book at the office, the name 'Cho' means 'butterfly'-----something for the Animagi speculators and the Patronus speculators to think about. Hui: > OTOH, "Cho" could be a Chinese name as well. It could mean "autumn" (the chinese translator thought so), which is a plausible enough name for a Chinese girl. Or it could mean "surpass," which is kind of boyish, but not so bad either. This is veering a bit OT into the dim fields of linguistics, but I've always assumed that Cho is overseas Chinese, not from China, as the romanisation for her name in hanyu pinyin (standard system in mainland China used for converting the sound of Chinese characters in Mandarin into the roman alphabet) would be Qiu Chang or Chou Chang (any comments, Hui??). As her family are presumably living in England, they could well be Hong Kong Chinese, prior to the return of Hong Kong to China in 1997, which would make them Cantonese speakers. "Cho Chang" looks more like a romanised Cantonese name than a Mandarin name to me. The real problem both we and the Chinese translator are having here is that we can't tell what "Cho Chang" really means because this is just a phonetic rendition of a name written in characters. As Hui points out, there are lots of characters which could be pronounced "Cho" and "Chang", all with different meanings. We'd have to ask JKR and see how much research she put into this, and whether she had any particular characters in mind... Aberforth's goat: > I think most readers are at least a little worried about Ron. His combination of insecurity and jealousy, his lack of a defining quality or talent (apart from chess-playing and bad jokes)--it's all a little worrisome. Hey, remember that JKR based Ron on her best friend Sean, so I'm sure she's fond of him. I think the best thing for Ron's insecurity and jealousy would be to achieve something truly great on his own, so he feels like a worthy, successful person in his own right, instead of just Percy's little brother, or Harry's sidekick. Pippin: > JKR has hinted that we are in for some startling developments in the Dursley family. Wouldn't it be ironic if Dudders turned out to be gay? Ooo, as JKR would say, well spotted! Though I thought nancy boy wasn't as specific a term as all that, I though it just meant a boy who was a bit finicky and effeminate and wimpy, not specifically gay... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andromache815 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 10:51:09 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:51:09 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Wand References: <9gbj5s+gs4a@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21049 Marianne: A wizard without a wand is sort of like a gunslinger without a six-shooter. But wands aren't essential to perform magic, right? Perhaps he's powerful enough to perform curses without a wand. Or maybe he acquired a new one somehow. Couldn't Dumbledore get one for him? Speaking of magic without wands, Dumbly and Voldy don't seem to need them often. Does it take more energy to perform magic without a wand, or intent and concentration alone? Vicky From dangermouse42 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 12:59:53 2001 From: dangermouse42 at yahoo.com (DM) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:59:53 -0000 Subject: Lucius may not be evil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gi9k9+8kea@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21050 Well, it was just a thought (an orignial one, I thought). It just seems to easy for JKR to say, yes, he's evil. Really, really evil. I'm always hoping for a twist, somewhere. This is especially true in my mind since we know that Harry and Draco are going to be teaming up at some point in the series and right now, if Lucius is evil evil evil, I really don't see Draco going against him very easily. Ever. Since the end of book four, I don't really trust Dumbledore very much (actually, I never have. He reminds me too much of Fizban from DragonLance). It would be quite interesting if it turns out the Malfoy's aren't half bad and Dumbledore really has been plotting world domination from the start. DM --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Vicky Ra" wrote: > DM: Scabbers (Peter) attacked Draco > on > > the train to Hogwarts in the first book; > > Koinonia: Wasn't that because Draco came around Ron? I don't really > remember. > > IIRC, Scabbers bit Crabbe or Goyle. I don't remember exactly which. I think > they tried to attack Ron and Harry. > > As for Moody, it may be that, in similar circumstances, the real Moody would > have transfigured a criminal to punish them better. I personally thought > Moody was cool. I'm sure Crouch did a great job impersonating him. > > I'm with Koinonia on the Lucius thing. > > Vicky From dangermouse42 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 13:19:28 2001 From: dangermouse42 at yahoo.com (DM) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:19:28 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9giap0+4g1j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21051 > Speaking of magic without wands, Dumbly and Voldy don't seem to need them > often. Does it take more energy to perform magic without a wand, or intent > and concentration alone? Well, and I'm sure this had been said before, we know young children can perform magic when they're under great stress (Neville bouncing down the garden path, Harry on the roof of the school, etc) without wands. Maybe the ability to work magic without wands can be developed in and adult, but I would assume it would take a lot of skill and self control to tap it - something I don't think Sirius has after being locked in Azkaban (we've seen is temper...). I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sirius didn't remeber much of his magic from schooling anyway. The only spell we've seem him perform (as far as I can remember - correct me if I'm wrong) is a disarming spell, which is something they learned very early on. He had been under a lot of stress with no time to practice. I think he would definetly need a wand to help him, but you're right - Dumbledore probably wouldn't. Now wouldn't that be something? If you were wandless and could disarm your opponent and use his own wand against him? DM From sprsun at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 13:35:04 2001 From: sprsun at yahoo.com (Cai Hui) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:35:04 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] the Chinese Cho References: <992750585.1963.69829.l7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <010801c0f732$8f334020$4d299cd3@cagsdic> No: HPFGUIDX 21052 Tabouli wrote: > I also think there's a significant cultural difference between mainland Chinese > families (you're from mainland China, right Hui?) and the overseas Chinese, > particularly those living in Western countries (after all, China's changed a > lot since most of the overseas Chinese left). The ol' migrant fossilisation > often means that migrants, especially those to a very different culture (e.g. > US, Australia) have more old fashioned values: migrants often take with them > the customs of the time when they left the motherland. My mother's values are > still pretty 1960s Malaysian Chinese, whereas my own visits to Malaysia and the > international students from Malaysia I've met suggest a very different country. You're right. I really don't know much about oversea Chinese families. What if the Chang family moved from Hong Kong to England during the 80s though? They should be a lot more open-minded then. And I can't remember if it's mentioned in the book whether Cho's a pure-blood or a muggle-born? After all, there're a huge amount of stories and folklores about magic arts and such in old China. (My best friend still believes in ghost!) I'd like to imagine that Cho's from a family full of powerful Chinese witches and wizards. Could be fun since they wouldn't be using Latin-based spells! > This is veering a bit OT into the dim fields of linguistics, but I've always > assumed that Cho is overseas Chinese, not from China, as the romanisation for > her name in hanyu pinyin (standard system in mainland China used for converting > the sound of Chinese characters in Mandarin into the roman alphabet) would be > Qiu Chang or Chou Chang (any comments, Hui??). Actually "Chang" would be "Zhang" in standard pinyin. And if "Cho" means "to surpass" it'd be "Chao." ^^; I know. Pinyin looks weird to western people. > As her family are presumably > living in England, they could well be Hong Kong Chinese, prior to the return of > Hong Kong to China in 1997, which would make them Cantonese speakers. "Cho > Chang" looks more like a romanised Cantonese name than a Mandarin name to me. I agree. I guess I never thought much about it because I've never seen a western book using pinyin for a Chinese character's name. I never expect pinyin. Hui _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 17 13:53:43 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:53:43 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: <9giap0+4g1j@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gicp7+ra4k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21053 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "DM" wrote: > I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sirius didn't remeber much of his > magic from schooling anyway. The only spell we've seem him perform >(as far as I can remember - correct me if I'm wrong) is a disarming > spell, which is something they learned very early on. I don't know when they would have learned Expelliarmus (early or late in schooling) if Lockhart hadn't started a Dueling Club (which also gave some information about extracurricular clubs at Hogwarts). In the Shrieking Shack, Sirius does a number of spells after Expelliarmus. When Harry jumps him, " there was a blinding flash as [Ron's] wand in Black's hand sent a jet of sparks into the air that missed Harry's face by inches" Lupin hands Black Snape's wand and together they turned Scabbers back into Pettigrew: "A flash of blue-white light erupted from both wands; for a moment,Scabbers was frozen in midair, his small gray form twisting madly -- Ron yelled -- the rat fell and hit the floor. There was another blinding flash of light and then --" Then they were going to kill Peter together -- they both rolled up their sleeves and pointed their wands at him -- WHY did they roll up their sleeves? When they decided to capture Peter instead of killing him, "Black conjured heavy manacles from thin air". T Then they all went back to the castle, with "Next came Professor Snape, drifting creepily along, his toes hitting each stair as they descended, held up by his own wand, which was being pointed at him by Sirius." I admit that one is less impressive, as it was Lupin that orginally cast the Mobilicorpus on Snape. From dangermouse42 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 14:43:09 2001 From: dangermouse42 at yahoo.com (DM) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:43:09 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: <9gicp7+ra4k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9giflt+cfj2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21054 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" wrote: > >The only spell we've seem him perform > >(as far as I can remember - correct me if I'm wrong) is a disarming > > spell, which is something they learned very early on. > > I don't know when they would have learned Expelliarmus (early or late > in schooling) if Lockhart hadn't started a Dueling Club (which also > gave some information about extracurricular clubs at Hogwarts). That's true, but on the other hand, this ~is~ Sirius we're talking about. I'm sure MWPP were 'dueling' with the Slytherins for some time (after all, Severus is skilled in it). Knowing how they have a tendency to stick their noses where they don't belong is a good indication that they may have learned Expelliarmus on their own quite early, IMO. > In the Shrieking Shack, Sirius does a number of spells after > Expelliarmus. When Harry jumps him, " there was a blinding flash as > [Ron's] wand in Black's hand sent a jet of sparks into the air that > missed Harry's face by inches" > > Lupin hands Black Snape's wand and together they turned Scabbers > back into Pettigrew: "A flash of blue-white light erupted from both > wands; for a moment,Scabbers was frozen in midair, his small gray > form twisting madly -- Ron yelled -- the rat fell and hit the floor. > There was another blinding flash of light and then --" You're right about all of those of course (I can't seem to locate my book three and was going on memory alone). Still, none of those spells were very impressive - for the really difficult ones, Lupin was helping him out. As for the sparks, you can shoot sparks out of a wand just by waving it around. It was probably just the shock of the moment when Harry jumped him (since we know he didn't want to hurt Harry). > Then they were going to kill Peter together -- they both rolled > up their sleeves and pointed their wands at him -- WHY did they > roll up their sleeves? Oh, most likely just for effect. One doesn't have to roll up their sleaves to punch somebody, but it's done anyway. I also think it helps with concentration - no billowy sleaves hanging around your wrist. > When they decided to capture Peter instead of killing him, "Black > conjured heavy manacles from thin air". T Right again. But still, manacles - prison... coincidence? Maybe not. > Then they all went back to the castle, with "Next came Professor > Snape, drifting creepily along, his toes hitting each stair as they > descended, held up by his own wand, which was being pointed at him by > Sirius." I admit that one is less impressive, as it was Lupin that > orginally cast the Mobilicorpus on Snape. Also true. Thanks for pointing that out. All right, maybe he can remember a few spells. But my point in the previous post was that he probably (IMO) isn't strong enough to handle doing complicated magic without a wand, like Dumbledore and Voldemort can do to some degree. He didn't seem to perform any magic besides the Animagus transformation (which he had been doing for years and years in Azkaban) up until the end of Book Three, as far as we know. I wonder if magic use can be detected from a distance, like the incident with Harry and the pudding (of course, he could have just been tattled on by Dobby or Mrs. Figg). DM From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Sun Jun 17 14:45:34 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:45:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Intro and Lucius may not be evil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21055 Dangermouse posted a series of "Lucius Isn't Evil" bits of evidence - hey, DM - Rhysenn, who writes excellent fanfic, will probably ask you to join her Lucius Rehab Team pretty soon! Me, however - I think Lucius is actually evil - possibly fully in Voldemort territory but I do appreciate that some evidence could tip the other way. You actually missed one bit - the selling of some of his pieces of Dark Magic in the begining of Book 2 - maybe he *really* wanted to get rid of the stuff and he thought it was finally safe to, given Harry's recent SECOND defeat of Voldemort at the end of book 1. Of course, there are arguments in the other direction - you mentioned some of them, like the donations (Fudge's mention of them is a grab at straws, Lucius is trying for rehabilitation, Lucius really donated the money to have control over what the researchers at St Mungo's are doing into reversing crucio-instigated insanity, so he can make sure no cure is ever publicized, etc), although others of your presumtions, like the truth potion, are only hypotheticals - some of us have talked about truth potions before, and have reasons why they might not be considered in trial processes. IMHO, loosh is an evil, child- and elf-abusing bigot...but if I can redeem Draco Malfoy, who's to say you can't vindicate that horrible parent of his? heidi some people fear death; I fear literalists From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jun 17 16:00:02 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:00:02 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: <9giflt+cfj2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gik62+hcuc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21056 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "DM" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" wrote: > > > Then they were going to kill Peter together -- they both rolled > > up their sleeves and pointed their wands at him -- WHY did they > > roll up their sleeves? > > Oh, most likely just for effect. One doesn't have to roll up their > sleaves to punch somebody, but it's done anyway. I also think it > helps with concentration - no billowy sleaves hanging around your > wrist. > Also, it's the traditional gesture signalling that magic is to be performed without trickery (yeah, that's a Pratchett reference),i.e., "nothing up my sleeve". JKR has Hermione do it in PS/SS when she performs Wingardium Leviosa in Charms class as a bit of comic overstatement. Pippin From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 16:05:15 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius may not be evil In-Reply-To: <9gi9k9+8kea@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010617160515.38633.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21057 --- DM wrote: > This is especially true in > my mind since we know that Harry and Draco are going to be teaming > up at some point in the series and right now, if Lucius is evil > evil evil, I really don't see Draco going against him very easily. Where did this come from? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From dangermouse42 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 16:28:11 2001 From: dangermouse42 at yahoo.com (DM) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:28:11 -0000 Subject: On house-elves and such... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gilqr+lsgc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21058 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > IMHO, loosh is an evil, child- and elf-abusing bigot... Yeah.. about that house-elf thing. Has it ever been mentioned that Dobby might just be insane? Don't get me wrong - I like the way house-elves have been presented in the series and think they're very interesting, but Dobby is completely bonkers, IMHO. The only time we actually see Lucius abusing his house-elf is at the end of book two - for all we know, the majority of Dobby's injuries could be self- inflicted. True, he said at one point that 'they reminded [Dobby] to do extra punishments' at the begining of book two when he first starts talking to Harry, but still... even the other ~house-elves~ don't like him, maybe because they sense something off about his behavior. Another thing is that it is unlikely for Lucius to not notice his elf's strange behavior - if your house-elf disappeared for a couple of hours then suddenly started bashing his head with the oven door when he returned, I for one would wonder and certainly wouldn't trust him with my sercrets. Dobby also seems to have this fixated amount of hero worship for Harry. An important question is Why? If he was living in the Malfoy Manor, I'm sure he didn't hear any good things about Potter. It can be argued that if he heard Draco or Lucius complaining about Harry, Dobby could have felt that maybe here was an ally for him. Yet, he seems actually shocked to discover that he was being freed, in part, by Harry. His motivations for attempting to stop Harry's return to Hogwarts are purely for Harry's best interest, not Dobby's. Why would a house-elf go to such extremes for no reason what so ever? Well, I have another way-the-heck-out-there theory that is purely hypothetical and is not really hinted at in anyway in the books (I think I think too much): Harry's mere presence at Hogwarts puts every other child there (including Draco Malfoy) at great risk. Harry draws trouble to the school - Voldy and Prof. Q, Mad-Eye Moody (Crouch) and Cedric's death (not to put any more guilt on Harry about that, but...). If I were a caring parent (and there is NO evidence that Draco is being abused in any way - not even any that he does not like and respect his father), I certainly wouldn't want Harry Potter, the boy who lived, yet keeps almost getting killed, around my children. Maybe Dobby's reasons for wanting to keep Harry away wasn't really ~all~ for only Harry's benefit after all. At any rate, read the conversation between Dobby and Harry in Chapter 21 of GoF ("The House-Elf Liberation Front") and chapter 28 ("The Madness of Mr. Crouch"). All of the other house-elves can tell Dobby is 'off.' There is something not right about him, as far as their culture is concerned. Interestingly enough, he ~still~ can't talk badly about Lucius without wanting to hit himself, which may only be a product of his training, or possilby because he really does still care about them in some twisted way. A few other things: >hey, >DM - Rhysenn, who writes excellent fanfic, will probably ask you to >join her Lucius Rehab Team pretty soon! Actually, I am working on a fanfic with a "Lucius not a sick, evil bastard" angle at the moment, which is the real reason I brought it up. I was hoping to get some ideas from people who didn't agree with me so I could incoporate them into my story and some how explain them away. Not an easy task, let me tell you. ^_^ DangerMouse (who hopes that S.P.E.W. doesn't bomb her car now) dangermouse42 at yahoo.com From dangermouse42 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 16:45:34 2001 From: dangermouse42 at yahoo.com (DM) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:45:34 -0000 Subject: Lucius may not be evil In-Reply-To: <20010617160515.38633.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gimre+h05d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21059 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich wrote: > > --- DM wrote: > > This is especially true in > > my mind since we know that Harry and Draco are going to be teaming > > up at some point in the series and right now, if Lucius is evil > > evil evil, I really don't see Draco going against him very easily. > > > Where did this come from? > Ah, sorry. On some of the other lists I'm on, we've decided that's a given. I didn't realize that might not be the case here. Well, the reasons we had for this is because, well, it just has to happen. JKR is putting a lot of work into this. Draco's just... too evil at times. It's a very common thread in a lot of stories - two extroverted characters (usually with a healthy rivalry playing off the fact that they have a lot of things in common and have strong personalities) don't like each other very much, but must learn to over come their differences in order to defeat a larger evil for the benefit of man-kind, blah, blah, blah, yackity-shmackity and through adversity, wind up as, if not friends, then at least allies. Harry's already got a villain to fight (Voldemort, et al) and Draco's character isn't just along for the ride, so we just kind of figured he was there for the turning towards the good and all that. It happens all the time (Ash and Gary - "Pok?mon," Angel and Lindsey - "Angel," David Xanatos and Goliath - "Gargoyles" etc, etc. I could name a million of them). Of course, I could be completely wrong about this (is has been known to happen from time to time), but this time, I sort of doubt it. DangerMouse From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 17:07:23 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione dying? In-Reply-To: <9ggb4t+uok6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010617170723.29390.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21060 In fanfiction ppl can have whoever they want to die but in the 'real' series J.K. said that none of the trio would die. People can go ahead and try to predict who all are going to die but it wont be H, H, or R. I personally think that it's likely one of the Weasleys might die though I hope I'm wrong! ~Star~ May I ask when she said this? Cuz I have heard her say stuff that suggested quite the contrary actually. I"m not saying that any in the trio would die..but JKR most definitely did not say it..to my knowledge atleast. She wouldn't devour information like that. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Buzz Index - Spot the hottest trends in music, movies,and more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 17:43:24 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:43:24 -0000 Subject: Intro and Lucius may not be evil In-Reply-To: <9gh1ko+d5se@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9giq7s+hshv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21061 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "DM" > While I'm here, I thought I'd air out a few thoughts of my own. If > this has been discussed before, I apologize (the archive for this > list is very, very large). I think my sister is tired of hearing my > talk about this and I'd also like to get some fresh opinions. Here > goes: > > I don't think Lucius Malfoy is a bad guy. I don't think he wants to > be working for Voldemort and was most likely coerced into doing it. > > Anyway, I would like to know what everybody thinks. I don't claim > that Lucius is a saint. He was probably dabbling in the Dark Arts > long before Voldemort approached him, but that doesn't automatically > make you evil. > Welcome, Dangermouse. You certainly have aroused discussion! As you see, opinion in this thread and in earlier threads seems to be that Lucius Malfoy (does anybody else see the allusion of "Light, doer of Evil" to Lucifer, the most beautiful of angels who fell from heaven?) is a baddy. Rather than being a pawn of Voldermort, I see him as an "eminence grise". It wouldn't be the first time that an old aristocratic family used a poor boy (orphanage) of low birth (half-Muggle) to its own ends. I leave all the textual clues to the other posters, there are surely enough of them. Oh, yeas, Lucius is evil. Haggridd From indigo at indigosky.net Sun Jun 17 17:46:47 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:46:47 -0000 Subject: Nearly Headless Nick in CoS In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010616143612.03464100@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9giqe7+ldrs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21062 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > At 09:51 AM 6/16/01 -0700, Kelly the Yarn Junkie wrote: > >Okay, this has been driving me batty since I first read the book: How > >was Nearly Headless Nick revived after petrification? He's a ghost, so > >he couldn't actually ingest a potion and a topical solution would flow > >right through him. > > In _Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator_, when Willy Wonka must > administer a "potion" to a disembodied, ghost-like entity, he does it > using a pesticide spray. Perhaps a similar "spraying" was what > was done to Nick. (And perhaps this is how Quirrell would have > administered the Elixir of Life to V.) > > > > -- Dave I was thinking Nearly Headless Nick, being already dead, probably ceased to be petrified once the Basilisk was dead -- rather like not- dead victims of a vampire go back to being plain human. The supernatural source of their trauma is no longer there, so neither is the trauma. Indigo From empressmercury at hotmail.com Sun Jun 17 17:56:11 2001 From: empressmercury at hotmail.com (Becca aka Cheyenne Rosemount) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:56:11 -0000 Subject: On house-elves and such... In-Reply-To: <9gilqr+lsgc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9giqvr+df3o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21063 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "DM" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" > wrote: > > > IMHO, loosh is an evil, child- and elf-abusing bigot... > > > Yeah.. about that house-elf thing. Has it ever been mentioned that > Dobby might just be insane? Don't get me wrong - I like the way > house-elves have been presented in the series and think they're very > interesting, but Dobby is completely bonkers, IMHO. **de-lurk** Hmm ... Dobby being bonkers doesn't seem to float right. I mean, he might be, but he seems more saner than the other house-elves, who, it seems, utterly *despise* freedom. But, then again, Dobby is an insane house-elf ... by normal house-elf standards. But most witches and wizards, as proved (IMHO) in Harry, Ron and Hermione's visit to the Hogwarts kitchen, think that the house-elf standards are bonkers. I don't know about what other magical creatures, such as goblins, think about this topic, so I can't say that most magical creatures agree with you or that they agree with me. Another thing is that it is unlikely for Lucius to not > notice his elf's strange behavior - if your house-elf disappeared for > a couple of hours then suddenly started bashing his head with the > oven door when he returned, I for one would wonder and certainly > wouldn't trust him with my sercrets. Perhaps Lucius didn't notice Dobby's strange behavior because he was too busy to care ... or didn't care *what* his house-elf did as long as he was satisfied with its work. That seems Malfoy-ish to me. > Dobby also seems to have this fixated amount of hero worship for > Harry. An important question is Why? If he was living in the Malfoy > Manor, I'm sure he didn't hear any good things about Potter. It can > be argued that if he heard Draco or Lucius complaining about Harry, > Dobby could have felt that maybe here was an ally for him. Yet, he > seems actually shocked to discover that he was being freed, in part, > by Harry. His motivations for attempting to stop Harry's return to > Hogwarts are purely for Harry's best interest, not Dobby's. Why > would a house-elf go to such extremes for no reason what so ever? I don't think that there is no reason. Dobby is a good house-elf. Now, I don't mean a good house-elf, who serves his family well 24/7. He's of the worst kind in that catogory. I mean good as in good/evil. I believe he is *not* on Voldemort's side, nor do I think he will switch sides. When he helps Harry, he isn't really doing it for Harry - he's doing it for the good side. If Harry Potter doesn't survive to fight in the next Voldemort War (if there is another one) then the good side is doomed, IMHO. Harry Potter is probably one of their last hopes. > DangerMouse > (who hopes that S.P.E.W. doesn't bomb her car now) > dangermouse42 at y... Just my ideas, ~Becca **re-lurk** From indigo at indigosky.net Sun Jun 17 17:56:50 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:56:50 -0000 Subject: End of and Era In-Reply-To: <3B2C2015.208907E7@texas.net> Message-ID: <9gir12+nasf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21064 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > catz109 at h... wrote: > > > JKR said that book #5 will have an "End of an era" I think it may be > > Dumbledore, but then I'm not sure if she would give us a huge hint > > toward it like that > > Where did she say this? Can we have a source? Many times what she > actually *said* and what everyone *thinks* she said are different, and > it's good to see the words themselves. > > --Amanda IMO, it's already the end of an era. The good times are over now that You Know Who is back. From catz109 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 17 18:24:52 2001 From: catz109 at hotmail.com (catz109 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:24:52 -0000 Subject: End of and Era In-Reply-To: <3B2C2015.208907E7@texas.net> Message-ID: <9gislk+ge3m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21065 > Where did she say this? Can we have a source? Many times what she > actually *said* and what everyone *thinks* she said are different, and > it's good to see the words themselves. > > --Amanda > I'm *positive* JKR said that book #5 would be the 'End of an era' for something. I'm sorry for not being able to give another reliable source to back me up. It was either A)an interview in Newsround or B) In a recent chat transcript. It was suspected (by the interviewer) that it could possibly Dumbledore's death, but that seems way to obvious to me. Rebekah From andromache815 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 08:18:56 2001 From: andromache815 at hotmail.com (Vicky Ra) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:18:56 -1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death, DADA teachers, looks (was Of Crushes, Kickers of Buckets and Creeveys) References: <003401c0f3e5$c137e4e0$2890aecb@price> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21066 Tabouli: You know, I actually liked Hermione Goes Gorgeous, So did I. I thought it was sweet. Tabouli: and since reading people's grumbles, I'm trying to analyse why. It may have been as a backlash against the "a woman only has a right to either brains or beauty" argument. The ol' Just World Hypothesis, *no-one* is allowed to have it all, it's not fair, which is why anyone who appears to have too much in a desirable domain (beauty, brains, money, talent, etc.) has to be very careful, lest other people get out their daggers and rip him/her to shreds to find some terrible character flaws or gaping voids in other domains or prove that they're Not So Great After All to make them feel better about themselves. Erm. I'm one of those nasty people who think that way. Tabouli: Another possibility (or another dimension of my reaction) is that Hermione copped a lot of rudeness about her looks in GoF, from Snape, Pansy, Draco, Parvati, Rita and so forth, and I felt a bit of "so there!" on her behalf when she showed 'em at the Yule Ball. Hassling an adolescent girl about her looks is very very cruel. And good on her even more for not having her head turned by it afterward! I didn't think of that. I'd thought she'd done it for Viktor. But honestly, it's not practical to spend 3 hours on hair and/or makeup every day. Tabouli: I always did think that hiring an incompetent like Lockhart for a subject as important as DADA for a year was a trifle irresponsible. All the same, JKR once said that Dumbledore hired Snape despite his nastiness because he believes that school should provide a range of life experiences, and teachers like Snape provide one of them. Could the same argument be extended to Lockhart? Perhaps. Or maybe he was just tricked, like everyone else who thought Lockhart actually did the stuff he wrote about. But it just occurs to me that the only people who thought he did that stuff was Molly and Hermione. Hmmm, I guess your theory's right. But I'd rather not have had the class, then to have it taught poorly. Tabouli: As for Quirrell, I didn't think it was clear that he was as useless as Lockhart: Yes. He probably did know his stuff. But how'd he get stuck with Voldie? Did he agree to let him possess him, or was he threatened with death? Tabouli: Reading this list, I realise just how hard I worked to track down all of the chats with JKR on the web! In one of them, she said that characters would continue to die, and that (in OoP?) one would be someone her readers "really gave a damn about", unlike Cedric, who was pretty peripheral in the grand scheme of things. Good. She's going for realism. I'd be disappointed if it were one of those glossed-over series. Then again, I can't bear the thought of dear Remus dying, though I do see your point of him being somewhat peripheral. I'd miss Snape and Hermione as well. Tabouli: She also said something like "the next book will mark the end of an era", which kind of hints at (the pointedly ageing in GoF) Dumbledore, doesn't it? Yeah. I did notice how the fact that Dumbledore was old and weary kept being repeated in that particular book. I, too, see him dying. It just seems inevitable, though I'm thinking he'll go in book 6. That would certainly be sad, though it'd be interesting how the team pulls itself together afterword, and if any reconciliations will happen, seeing as rivals have to work closely with each other for the cause. Vicky From banjoken at optonline.net Sun Jun 17 18:35:36 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:35:36 -0000 Subject: On house-elves and such... In-Reply-To: <9giqvr+df3o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9git9o+627v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21067 > Perhaps Lucius didn't notice Dobby's strange behavior because he was > too busy to care ... or didn't care *what* his house-elf did as long > as he was satisfied with its work. That seems Malfoy-ish to me. Certianly. Also, remember that the mark of a good house-elf is that you don't know it's there. Ken From meboriqua at aol.com Sun Jun 17 18:53:40 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:53:40 -0000 Subject: On house-elves and Lucius In-Reply-To: <9gilqr+lsgc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9giubk+d63f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21068 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "DM" wrote: > > Yeah.. about that house-elf thing. Has it ever been mentioned that > Dobby might just be insane? > (who hopes that S.P.E.W. doesn't bomb her car now)> Welcome to HP4GU! True, you certainly have started several threads of good discussion here... I happen to disagree with you, though. Don't worry, though, we S.P.E.W. types aren't into violence to get our point across! Dobby: I adore Dobby and do not at all think he is insane. Unique, yes, and eccentric (love those socks and tea cozies!), but quite right in the head. As a card carrying outspoken member of S.P.E.W., I see Dobby's plight as one of constant abuse on the part of the Malfoys and then, when he was freed, has been almost feared by other house-elves because they do not understand that their freedom is a good thing. Dobby is the lone elf to stand up and speak out against the situation of house-elves, which I believe to be nothing other than slavery (many have disagreed with me here). History has shown us again and again that people who stand up for what they believe to be right are often ostracized by their peers and just as often targeted by the law (the civil rights movement here in the US, for example, and now, the Vieques, PR bombings). Dobby is not thought of as insane by the other elves at Hogwarts, he is seen as a trouble maker, IMO. I'm with Hermione (and just found out from the quiz that I am most like her - go figure!)- free and pay them all! Lucius: A bad, bad man. He has taught his son to hate those who are not pure-blooded wizards, and to insult them to boot ("mudblood" is an ugly word). Aside from his DE activities at the World Cup (what he and the others did to those Muggles was horrifying), the way he looked at Hermione, a 14 year old girl, is enough to give anyone goose-bumps. I've been looked at like that by people who don't like Jews (obviously I am Jewish) and it feels pretty bad. Lucius also clearly has money with or without Voldemort. Being evil is what he wants, and nothing more. Draco: He is a shadow of daddy right now. I'm not sure what will become of him (I have hope!), but he has yet to really question anything that Daddy says at home. Draco has to learn to think on his own. Will he team up with Harry at some point? I don't know. Perhaps Harry and Draco will form a cold alliance the way Snape and Sirius are trying to do. Again, this one is a mystery to me. Draco fascinates me in much the same way Snape does. --jenny from ravenclaw************** From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 19:44:25 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: On house-elves and Lucius In-Reply-To: <9giubk+d63f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010617194425.68906.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21069 > Draco: He is a shadow of daddy right now. I'm not sure what will > become of him (I have hope!), but he has yet to really question > anything that Daddy says at home. Draco has to learn to think on > his own. Will he team up with Harry at some point? I don't know. > Perhaps Harry and Draco will form a cold alliance the way Snape and > Sirius are trying to do. Again, this one is a mystery to me. > Draco fascinates me in much the same way Snape does. Apologies to Draco fans up front but I can't see Draco having a big part to play in future books or having any kind of major personal transformation to the "good side". I can see him: 1. Developing a crush on Hermione and trying to impress her with name-dropping, flashing his family's wealth and other Malfoy-ish tactics that won't work, to his bafflement. He could also brag to her about V's doings (as he hears them from Daddy) and she might put up with him just to get the info. 2. Being frightened away from the Dark Side because Lucius is killed or because the Malfoys are not given the prominence they feel they deserve and suffer for it. 3. Setting off a crisis in the school that makes like rough for the trio. Draco is painted with strokes that are too broad to make him a carefully delineated character. He's more of a type ("spoiled rich brat") than a real person. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 17 19:57:05 2001 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:57:05 -0000 Subject: Hermione dying? In-Reply-To: <20010617170723.29390.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gj22h+b284@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21070 Melanie Brackney wrote: > In fanfiction ppl can have whoever they want to die but in >the 'real' series J.K. said that none of the trio would die. I think Harry will die in book 7 but even if she had absolutely no intention of ever killing off one of the big three she would have to be incredibly stupid to publicly say so now with 3 more books to come. JKR is not stupid. Conclusion: JKR never said that. From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sun Jun 17 20:00:08 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:00:08 -0000 Subject: Lucius may not be evil In-Reply-To: <9gimre+h05d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gj288+6b68@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21071 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "DM" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich wrote: > > > > --- DM wrote: > > > This is especially true in my mind since we know that Harry > > > and Draco are going to be teaming up at some point in the > > > series > > > > Where did this come from? > > > Ah, sorry. On some of the other lists I'm on, we've decided that's > a given. I didn't realize that might not be the case here. Well, > the reasons we had for this is because, well, it just has to > happen. JKR is putting a lot of work into this. Draco's just... > too evil at times. [snip] > > Of course, I could be completely wrong about this (is has been known > to happen from time to time), but this time, I sort of doubt it. This list holds a high standard for canonicity. To state that you *know* something requires that either (1) it's found in canon or (2) JKR said it herself. There are a lot of strong speculations, many of which may prove to be right, and there is certainly a large bit of extra-canonical contextualization that helps one infer things about the text, but when it comes to actual statements of *knowledge*, they have to be backed up by something. I don't think Draco's future helping Harry fits these criteria. ....Craig From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 20:17:48 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:17:48 -0000 Subject: Lucius may not be evil In-Reply-To: <9gi9k9+8kea@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gj39c+tjar@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21072 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "DM" wrote: > Well, it was just a thought (an orignial one, I thought). It just > seems to easy for JKR to say, yes, he's evil. Really, really evil. > I'm always hoping for a twist, somewhere. This is especially true in > my mind since we know that Harry and Draco are going to be teaming up > at some point in the series and right now, if Lucius is evil evil > evil, I really don't see Draco going against him very easily. Ever. > Since the end of book four, I don't really trust Dumbledore very much > (actually, I never have. He reminds me too much of Fizban from > DragonLance). It would be quite interesting if it turns out the > Malfoy's aren't half bad and Dumbledore really has been plotting > world domination from the start. > DM > > You are more correct than perhaps you intended to be when you said that you are "always hoping" for a twist. The scenario you describe is not in the canon: that is, neither in the texts of the six books already published, nor in JKR's public statements. If you can support your assertion by such references, you will get al our attention, I assure you. Hagridd From deeblite at home.com Sun Jun 17 20:22:33 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:22:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's age In-Reply-To: <20010616211456.35172.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> References: <9ggaqv+3lvc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010617162121.00b7c9a8@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21073 At 02:14 PM 6/16/2001 -0700, you wrote: >--- dragon_starling at yahoo.com wrote: > > When discusing age cut-off I think we should take > > into thought > > the 'muggle-born issue' as I call it. I think that > > all muggle borns > > who would normally be going into their secondary > > school years (is > >If I remember correctly in the States the cutoff is >you have to be 6 by Jan 15th to go to kindergarden so >that may be how it works in the magical world The cutoff is different in every school. Some of them say Jan 1st, some of them say Sept. 1st, others say all sorts of other different dates. There's no government mandated cutoff or anything. If a school wants to let a 5 year old (or younger) in, they can -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 17 20:44:41 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:44:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione dying? References: <20010617170723.29390.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B2D16B9.14F74239@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21074 /rant ON/ Melanie Brackney wrote: > In fanfiction ppl can have whoever they want to die but in the 'real' > series J.K. said that none of the trio would die. AAAAAAAAAAAGH! No offense to Melanie specifically, but there's been just *oodles* of people making "JKR said" claims lately, with no citation of the interview, or link to transcripts, or even specific wording. Can we please have the specifics to these things? I also am betting that JKR actually said no such thing. She should have been a politician, it seems almost inevitable that when such a claim is chased down, that her actual words are ambiguous. Nor would such a savvy P.R.-wise lady give something like that away. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ender_w at msn.com Sun Jun 17 13:38:29 2001 From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:38:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ___ Grindelwald References: <9ghd9v+oro4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <005001c0f732$ce6317c0$99e7183f@satellite> No: HPFGUIDX 21075 It could be, but Tom is the heir of Slytherin through his mother, not his father. CoS, paperback American version, p. 314 "I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side?" ----- Original Message ----- From: Bugg To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 12:56 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ___ Grindelwald Good thought; What is Grindelwald's first name? Could be Marvolo. Bugg dfrankis wrote: >Grindelwald could have been Tom's grandfather >Marvolo, the then-current Heir of Slytherin. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Enter to Win! _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 22:02:54 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:02:54 -0000 Subject: End of and Era/DADA In-Reply-To: <9gh7pl+j56o@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gj9ee+non7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21076 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Allison " wrote: > > I don't think Dumbledore will die - he's too important. He runs the > anti-Voldemort group and he has physically saved Harry's life > on more then one occasion (SS, GoF). > > But I think it *is* likely he will be removed from his position as > Headmaster. After all, the Minister of Magic doesn't want to believe > V came back. If Dumbledore is actively fighting V (which I'm sure he > will), Fudge might remove him, if he has the power to do so. And if > he can't, he could pressure the school governors to do so. > > That's what I think "end of an era" means, but hey, that's just me. The more I think about this the more I think you could be right to some extent. Dumbledore doesn't have to die for everything to turn upside down. If you remove Dumbledore from Hogwarts then things can get very interesting. For instance, Harry and others have always felt safe with D. around. But, if Dumbledore were to be dismissed then who would Harry trust at Hogwarts? McGonagall, I'm sure but would he also trust Snape? Not yet, IMO. Cedric has died and surely there will be an inquiry into how he died. Unless Fudge tries to hide it all under the covers. I can see a scene where Dumbledore is dismissed due to Cedric's death. Not to mention Dumbly's little speech at the end of GoF. Bet that didn't sit very well with Fudge. So maybe Fudge brings in his own headmaster. What if said person is a DE? Or what if Fudge lets Dumbledore stay on but takes away much of D's power to run the school as he has always done? If Fudge starts to do the hiring, who might he hire? I know I have always wondered who Dumbly was going to bring in as the new DADA but he might not have that choice. It might be left up to Fudge. I would be willing to bet that Lucius Malfoy is in the background exerting pressure to get rid of Dumbledore or to have a Voldemort supporter in some high position at Hogwarts. Koinonia From celeste_827 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 22:14:55 2001 From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (celeste_827 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:14:55 -0000 Subject: the Chinese Cho In-Reply-To: <010801c0f732$8f334020$4d299cd3@cagsdic> Message-ID: <9gja4v+hesc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21077 > And I can't remember if it's mentioned in the book whether Cho's > a pure-blood or a muggle-born? After all, there're a huge amount > of stories and folklores about magic arts and such in old China. > (My best friend still believes in ghost!) I'd like to imagine that Cho's > from a family full of powerful Chinese witches and wizards. Could > be fun since they wouldn't be using Latin-based spells! Yeah. I think Latin-based spells are only in use by those who speak Romance languages or English. I would imagine that a Chinese wizard would speak his spells in his own native tongue. > Actually "Chang" would be "Zhang" in standard pinyin. And if "Cho" > means "to surpass" it'd be "Chao." ^^; > I know. Pinyin looks weird to western people. It looks weird to me, and I'm Chinese too. ^^;; I'm an American-born Chinese, however, so I can't say anything. *is still struggling to remember that 'C' in pinyin replaced the 'Ts' in Wade-Giles or romanization or whatever it's called now* *has got 'Q' down though* > > As her family are presumably > > living in England, they could well be Hong Kong Chinese, prior to the return of > > Hong Kong to China in 1997, which would make them Cantonese speakers. "Cho > > Chang" looks more like a romanised Cantonese name than a Mandarin name to me. Well, Chang/Zhang is a common name, so I can't really argue with that. > I agree. I guess I never thought much about it because I've never > seen a western book using pinyin for a Chinese character's name. > I never expect pinyin. My history textbook uses pinyin. Except for names like Chiang Kai-Shek... well, actually, yeah, it uses Jiang Jieshi now. I'm thinking it is pretty likely Cho is originally from Hong Kong, as it's the place which was originally British. - Celeste, at the end of a very meaningless post From dangermouse42 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 23:45:47 2001 From: dangermouse42 at yahoo.com (DM) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:45:47 -0000 Subject: A little OT and a quick age question In-Reply-To: <9gj288+6b68@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gjffb+7n4v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21078 > This list holds a high standard for canonicity. To state that you > *know* something requires that either (1) it's found in canon or (2) > JKR said it herself. There are a lot of strong speculations, many > of which may prove to be right, and there is certainly a large bit > of extra-canonical contextualization that helps one infer things > about the text, but when it comes to actual statements of *knowledge*, > they have to be backed up by something. I don't think Draco's > future helping Harry fits these criteria. > > ....Craig Ack. My apologies. I guess I didn't read my "Welcome to HPforGrownups" e-mail closely enough. I thought speculation was okay (and is usually a good topic for discussion). In my mind, I 'know.' Being a fanfiction writer (which many of us are), cannon is always a kind of hazy line to cross (since so many things can be read into any series). Sorry if I've offended anyone's sensibilities here. I'll be more careful in the future. Oh, and not to bring up another subject, but is it a general consensus that Wizards in the HP universe live longer lives than normal humans? In the timeline I've worked out (seems like everybody's making one, doesn't it?), I have Arthur Weasley getting close to around 65 - 70 or so. DangerMouse "Half of the harm that is done in this world Is due to people who want to feel important." - T. S. Eliot, "The Cocktail Party" From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 18 00:28:08 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:28:08 -0000 Subject: A little OT and a quick age question In-Reply-To: <9gjffb+7n4v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gjhuo+ohfg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21079 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "DM" wrote: > Oh, and not to bring up another subject, but is it a general > consensus that Wizards in the HP universe live longer lives than > normal humans? In the timeline I've worked out (seems like > everybody's making one, doesn't it?), I have Arthur Weasley getting > close to around 65 - 70 or so. JKR said in a Scholastic on=line chat that wizards live longer than Muggles, Dumbledore is 150, and McGonagall is 'a sprightly 70'. It makes sense that Arthur (and Molly -- they were in school together) wouldn't be MUCH yuounger than McGonagall. From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 18 00:36:34 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:36:34 -0000 Subject: ___ Grindelwald In-Reply-To: <005001c0f732$ce6317c0$99e7183f@satellite> Message-ID: <9gjiei+5518@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21080 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis wrote: > Grindelwald could have been Tom's grandfather > Marvolo, the then-current Heir of Slytherin. Bugg replied: > Good thought; What is Grindelwald's first name? > Could be Marvolo. "ender_w" then replied: > It could be, but Tom is the heir of Slytherin through his mother, > not his father. Yes. Tom's mother could have been Mirella Grindelwald: JKR hasn't told us her last name any more than her first name, and there's no reason to beleive my random claim that she was named Mirella Magicker, daughter of Marvolo and Miranda Magicker. From neilward at dircon.co.uk Mon Jun 18 00:36:12 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:36:12 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A little OT and a quick age question References: <9gjffb+7n4v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000e01c0f78e$c44448c0$613670c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 21081 Dangermouse said: <> Speculation is just fine here, provided you make it clear that you are stating your opinion, and throw in the odd "in my opinion..", "some have suggested that..." or "my theory is that..." along the way. If something is stated as a fact, I'm afraid people will jump up and ask for a full citation, with date, page numbers and JKR's inside leg measurement. The way we get round some of the fanfic-style speculation is to request that people prefix such messages with FF (for fanfiction) or SHIP (for relationship-oriented posts), but it's still advisable to have some basis in canon. If it gets too far removed from JKR's world, there's our OT Chatter list, where anything goes (within reason), but since we don't know yet where JKR is heading, who can say for sure that any speculative theory about HP is wrong? If in doubt, you can always check with the moderators or the List Elves. All details are in the Welcome Message. Magically, Neil Moderator Team ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia Mechanimagus Moderator "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything to do with this club: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm From devika261 at aol.com Mon Jun 18 01:09:49 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:09:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: End of and Era Message-ID: <98.16601f77.285eaedd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21082 In a message dated 6/16/01 10:45:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, koinonia02 at yahoo.com writes: > From an interview with Rowling July 18, 2000/CBC Newsworld: > > Question/Statement: This is the crucial book, because after this > book, everything changes. The whole world seems to go through a > radical transformation. > > Answer: Well, it's the end of an era. Book Four is the end of an > era for Harry. He's been very protected until now. > So this means that after book 4, Harry is no longer very protected? Hmmm... Allison wrote: I don't think Dumbledore will die - he's too important. He runs the anti-Voldemort group and he has physically saved Harry's life on more then one occasion (SS, GoF). But I think it *is* likely he will be removed from his position as Headmaster. After all, the Minister of Magic doesn't want to believe V came back. If Dumbledore is actively fighting V (which I'm sure he will), Fudge might remove him, if he has the power to do so. And if he can't, he could pressure the school governors to do so. That's what I think "end of an era" means, but hey, that's just me. I don't think that Dumbledore will die right away. However, I think his time will come in book 6, perhaps early in the book (or even at the very end of book 5). I wrote a post before saying that I can see Dumbledore dying because Harry and co. need to learn to depend on themselves. I still think that's true, but I doubt that they will be capable of that just yet. Book 5 may describe a time when everyone who will be fighting Voldemort is beginning to plan a way to defeat him, and Dumbledore, who will probably know that he won't be around to help them forever, will try to give the others their own major parts to play in the fight. I have another thought, though. Dumbledore seems to be Harry's main protector. Voldemort would not plan a direct attack on Hogwarts because Dumbledore is there, and even Harry's arrangement with the Dursleys (Mrs. Figg, Fidelius Charm, whatever you might think it is) was set up by Dumbledore. If Harry is no longer "very protected" after book 4, could this mean that Dumbledore will no longer be at Hogwarts? At the end of book 4, Fudge was obviously not pleased with Dumbledore. He seems to think that Dumbledore is part of some plot to cause widespread chaos in the wizarding world. He tells Dumbledore that he will be in touch with him shortly to discuss the running of the school. This always struck me as rather ominous. Fudge may very well have forced Dumbledore into retirement at the end of the school year. I agree with Allison that Dumbledore's leaving the school would certainly be the end of an era, and I can see Dumbledore leading the fight from somewhere other than Hogwarts (and then dying in the battle later). Even Dumbledore's speech at the Leaving Feast can be seen, IMO, as a farewell speech with a final plea to the students to do what is right rather than what is easy after he is gone. And Dumbledore's absence would certainly make Harry much more vulnerable and open to attack from outside. This is just random speculation, but maybe Mrs. Figg is somehow part of Harry's protection. And maybe now, with Dumbledore gone, she will have to be the new DADA teacher to continue that protection. Although I'm not sure exactly how that would work... Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 18 02:16:24 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Intro and Lucius may not be evil In-Reply-To: <9giq7s+hshv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010618021624.64638.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21083 elcome, Dangermouse. You certainly have aroused discussion! As you see, opinion in this thread and in earlier threads seems to be that Lucius Malfoy (does anybody else see the allusion of "Light, doer of Evil" to Lucifer, the most beautiful of angels who fell from heaven?) is a baddy. Rather than being a pawn of Voldermort, I see him as an "eminence grise". It wouldn't be the first time that an old aristocratic family used a poor boy (orphanage) of low birth (half-Muggle) to its own ends. I leave all the textual clues to the other posters, there are surely enough of them. Oh, yeas, Lucius is evil. Haggridd Lucius is definitely evil....but I'm not too sure about his son. Yes, he is a jerk, but then again so is a Snape. I am not saying that he's a great person, but I"m not counting Draco out as going to light side. Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 18 02:21:31 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione dying? In-Reply-To: <9gj22h+b284@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010618022131.33516.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21084 Melanie Brackney wrote: > In fanfiction ppl can have whoever they want to die but in >the 'real' series J.K. said that none of the trio would die. I think Harry will die in book 7 but even if she had absolutely no intention of ever killing off one of the big three she would have to be incredibly stupid to publicly say so now with 3 more books to come. JKR is not stupid. Conclusion: JKR never said that. I never did say that she did....somebody else said that. Sorry but it just irritates me when people mis quote me...sorry Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 02:30:37 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma Moniz) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 02:30:37 -0000 Subject: Death, DADA teachers, looks (was Of Crushes, Kickers of Buckets and Creeveys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gjp4d+niet@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21085 Vicky said: > Good. She's going for realism. I'd be disappointed if it were one of those glossed-over series. Then again, I can't bear the thought of dear Remus dying, though I do see your point of him being somewhat peripheral. I'd miss Snape and Hermione as well. Y'know, I hate the thought of dear Remus dying, and I would cry for hours if he did. (I'm not attatched or anything...) But I could see something happening with him. If he does indeed come back in Book 5, as has been speculated in various places and perhaps confirmed, not sure there, he will play a larger role, I think. He's one of those surragate father-figures in Harry's life, and I think as a person as well as a connection to his parents and Sirius, very important. Consider, perhaps, that dear Remus returns to help fight the good fight, as it were. And he, as befitting such a gorgeously angst- ridden character, dies fighting that fight. Perhaps for Harry, perhaps someone else. That would, I think, be feasible. And beautifully angst-ridden. (I'm an angst monger, what can I say...it's the fan-fic writer in me, I swear...) ~Emma, who would mourn dear Remus with an unhealthy intensity From SHENmagic at aol.com Mon Jun 18 02:38:54 2001 From: SHENmagic at aol.com (SHENmagic at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:38:54 EDT Subject: Has Draco been abused? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21086 "DM" writes: << (and there is NO evidence that Draco is being abused in any way - not even any that he does not like and respect his father), >> I'm sorry-- there is the scene in CoS that takes place in Mr. Borgin's "Dark Articles Dispersal Shoppe" in Knockturn Alley that speaks volumes of emotional abuse to me: Lucius didn't stop with merely dispensing parental guidance (paraphrased: "You must remember that your dislike of Potter isn't universal, and it's not wise to publicly rant against him"), he was shaming, quelling, putting down Draco (not that the little git wasn't obnoxiously obssessing over Harry's achievements)directly, and to Mr. Borgin: "Though if his school marks don't pick up, said Mr. Malfoy more coldly still, that may indeed be all he is fit for" (to be a thief or plunderer). I know shaming and guilt inducement are used by many in caregiver roles to "build character" or what have you; that doesn't make it any less emotionally abusive, or even right. --Aylihael, who loved Barbara Purdom's?JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN DOESN?T MEAN YOU SHOULD? line Barb's fan fic Moody spoke to his DADA class in Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent From purplefanta at yahoo.com Mon Jun 18 04:52:32 2001 From: purplefanta at yahoo.com (purplefanta at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 04:52:32 -0000 Subject: Photos, new members, Sirius/Lupin. Scar In-Reply-To: <20010615214109.84373.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gk1eg+un9c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21087 Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > Later in the book Colin does show Harry a picture he > has taken(again I don't have my book handy can someone > find the quote please?) and it says s8omething to the > effect of "Lockheart was pulling on what looked like > Harry's arm since the rest of him refused to enter the > picture--eventually the picture Lockheart gave up and > collapsed panting against the little white frame" or > something to that effect. So yes he did manage to get > the picture to move (Even if the picture Harry didn't > want to be in it) :D > 1) Here is my question... if a magical person (witch, wizard, etc.) take a picture of a muggle and a non muggle, will they both move in the photo? Will neither move? Can a muggle see the people moving in the photos? 2) Ok, I have a small bone to pick, and I know that I am going to get reamed for saying this. BUT, as the membership increases, there are many who ask questions that have been talked about previously. As a new member, I am sure i have done the same. But IMHO, with all the new people, I am sure that there are lots of new ideas on old topics. i don't think it is possible to exist as a discussion group and not bring up topics time and time again. When I have a question, I want to know what this group thinks now... not what they decided a few months ago. Perhaps, I have no right to make this request, but please don't yell "check the archives" everytime us newbies have question... it makes me long for a Cheering Charm... 3) I agree that Sirius made a mistake when he was 16, but I don't think he honestly still thinks he was justified in making that decision. When he made the comment at the end of PoA, Snape had just nearly given him to the dementors AND caused the loss of Wormtail to V. Snape had lost his cool completely, and Sirius was reacting to that situation. Lupin, OTOH, has come across completely as a warm, fun, and couragous man. I would have to say he is my fave charcter (after Hagrid) 4) I am curious as to what format everyone thinks the last three books to have. My guess is that Book 7 will be almost completely explanation. I almost wonder if whether the main climax might happen at the end of 6/ early 7. Then someone (Dumbledore if he is still alive) explains to Harry all that has happend. Or, Harry explains everything to someone else. Explanation proceeds on, ending with the night James and Lily died. Last sentance? "And THAT is how you got your scar." Just My thoughts, please don't hurt me.... Melissa Can't Spell... Admit that freely From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 18 07:32:48 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:32:48 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Redemption of Draco In-Reply-To: <20010617194425.68906.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c0f7c8$dfa18bc0$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 21088 >Draco is painted with strokes that are too broad to make him a carefully delineated character. He's more of a type ("spoiled rich >brat") than a real person. I see Draco as quite a plausible candidate for a last minute, sacrificial switch to the good guys. The question is, what would motivate him to do it? Possible ill-treatment of a loved on by Voldemort would be the classic motive, but who would be the loved one? He goes to the ball with Pansy (but then it seems to be a given that no-one of the principal characters goes to that ball with the person they'd really intended to ask). Perhaps he falls for someone unsuitable, and their death at Voldemort's hands brings about a change of heart. Given recent discussions, maybe he's going to take Justin FF home for the holidays - what an uproar that would cause at the Grange! You can't see Lucius standing for his son having a relationship with a Mudblood. Susan From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 18 07:32:49 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:32:49 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Wand In-Reply-To: <9gicp7+ra4k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000101c0f7c8$e0729760$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 21089 >Then they were going to kill Peter together -- they both rolled up their sleeves and pointed their wands at him -- WHY did they >roll up their sleeves? Dramatic tension. this is one of my favourite bits in canon, and so beautifully written. Rolling up their sleeves emphasises just how carefully and deliberately they're going to kill Pettigrew. Susan From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 18 08:39:03 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:39:03 -0000 Subject: Starting School In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gken7+41l3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21090 Simon wrote: > I would go with the idea that all the letters, at least to those of wizarding families, which Harry is, would get sent out at the same time. So in mid-July McGonagall consults the books of people who will be starting in September, sends owls off to those from the wizarding families and then some arrangement is made to go and see those of muggle parentage, and Harry who technically comes into this category. > It's an interesting commentary on Wizard ignorance of the Muggle world that they leave it so late. The future school of Muggle 11 year olds is sorted out through a complex process which takes up most of the period from October to March, and beyond for many. There is talk of little else among parents with kids of that age over that time, as they balance the chance of getting their dear offspring into the school they want, against the need to ensure avoiding the sink school next door at all costs. Even the Dursleys had sorted out Harry's future before the letters arrived. On the other hand, a number of places at sought-after schools mysteriously come free at the last minute over Summer - could this be the Hogwarts effect as wizard children of Muggle parents are removed from the system? David, still formulating his thoughts about THAT Valentine From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Mon Jun 18 08:52:05 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:52:05 -0000 Subject: Parting of the Ways, SHIPPING Fleur & Bill Message-ID: <9gkffl+fphd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21091 Just caught up with all the mails that had arrived during the weekend (I simply have to get me a PC at home) and all the interesting theories about book 5 etc. Dumbledore: I agree with everybody that he won't be able to be headmaster of Howarts any longer, at least not in the way he has been so far. The question is: If Fudge (who IMO will not play a very sympathetic part in OoP) wants to hush it all up, where is his "official" argument for removing him as a headmaster? Just think what he would have to tell the Daily Prophet! Fudge and Dumbledore could of course come to an agreement as for D. to retire for age or health reasons, but I somehow doubt that, given the way they have separated at the end of GoF. If Dumbledore retired because he himself decided it would be better for the school, who is going to take his place? Snape? (Remember Draco telling him in CoS that he would certainly get his father's vote- which means the rest of the school governors' too?) That would be interesting insofar as Voldemort would think to have an ally as headmaster of Hogwarts, whereas Snape in reality is still a double agent (hopefully!!!), able to work agianst V. and to protect Harry. Or should it be Moody? Anyway, I#d rather exclude McGonagall, who is simply the classical Deputy. Anyway, how's the situtation at Hogwarts going to develop? There are parents that clearly stand on V.'s side (Crabbe, Goyle, malfoy and perhaps others), others who are as clearly on Dumbly's side (Weasleys and a lot of others), but what about the Muggle- borns and the undecided? I somehow feel that life at Hogwarts is not going to be very pleasant, as the gap between pro and contra V. will divide not only Slytherin from the other houses, but also run through the single houses. Maybe the V.-followers are all going to Durmstrang? What do you think of a possible romance coming up between Fleur, who said she was going to return to improve her language skills, and Bill whom she had eyed with great interest not minding he had a ponytail and an earring with a fang? They would make a nice couple. Or is Snape going to develop a crush on her? I would like to see Snape falling in love, maybe that would make him mend his ways- imagine him, all happy and radiant, having his hair washed and pulled back into a ponytail, telling Neville "Now, now, don't cry, no problem if you have melted your tenth cauldron, I'll get you a new one. (Strokes Trevor fondly) And now, everybody, let's try out that love potion, I want you all to share my happy feelings!" No howlers for that one, please, just think it's monday morning and I've got up early!!! Susanna From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 09:12:49 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:12:49 -0000 Subject: End of and Era/DADA In-Reply-To: <9gj9ee+non7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gkgmh+aumb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21092 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote: > Cedric has died and surely there will be an inquiry into how he > died. Unless Fudge tries to hide it all under the covers. I can see > a scene where Dumbledore is dismissed due to Cedric's death. Not to > mention Dumbly's little speech at the end of GoF. Bet that didn't sit > very well with Fudge. So maybe Fudge brings in his own headmaster. The Minsitry right now is indeed trying to hide everything. Remember at the end of GoF there is no mention of Cedric's Death in the Daily Prophet at all? So it kind of depends on how Cedric's parents, particularly Amos, his father reacts. > What if said person is a DE? Or what if Fudge lets Dumbledore stay > on but takes away much of D's power to run the school as he has > always done? If Fudge starts to do the hiring, who might he hire? Lucius Malfoy sounds like fun ... Can he get more unfair than Snape? May be the two of them can start competing with each other ... I > know I have always wondered who Dumbly was going to bring in as the > new DADA but he might not have that choice. It might be left up to > Fudge. I would be willing to bet that Lucius Malfoy is in the > background exerting pressure to get rid of Dumbledore or to have a > Voldemort supporter in some high position at Hogwarts. The thing about evil DADA teacher is that it had become a bit of a cliche. 3 out of 4 is getting a bit much, so IMHO, the next one won't be evil. JKR managed to pull off evil Moody because the last DADA was the very very cool Lupin and she constantly reminded the readers how much Moody and Lupin were alike. We'll begin to suspect the new DADA this time so JKR can't put a DE DADA in book 5. How about that rumour about a female DADA? (I think it was in a chat) If it has to be a female DE DADA, I would like it to be the outrageously evil Mrs. Lestrange. I also wonder whether the DADA job is really jinxed or Dumbledore just like new staff in that position every year to keep himself amused. (may be that's why he hired Lockhart) After all, it seemed like most of the staff except the DADA have been in Hogwarts forever. Fifty years in the same school -- how can Dumbledore stand it? From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 10:31:26 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 06:31:26 -0400 Subject: Magic quill, Cho, Wandless, LM, SB, GL, DM, Pivotal Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21093 a.k.a. "a post with so many subjects that a subject heading is all but pointless"...and I only went away for 36 hours! What will happen at the end of the month when I've been away for 10 days? Ebony wrote: >Crookshanksgate ROFL! Now, that sounds to me like a slightly pro-Ron way to term it. Don't you mean "Scabbersgate"? Rita asked: >if Divination is such an imprecise science, how does the quill know >which kids are going to start school early or skip a grade? Maybe it doesn't? Hogwarts doesn't care what grade you're in when you get your letter. You're 11 (or soon to be), time to drop whatever you're doing and start your proper magical training. Hui wrote Isn't Chang also the most common name in China (and the world, BTW)? If JKR knows this, it's a bit like naming her "Smith." Yes, it means something ("smith"), but primarily it means "very very common name." Vicky wrote: >Speaking of magic without wands, Dumbly and Voldy don't seem to need them >often. Can you give examples? Most of the things they do that come to my mind involve wands. DM wrote: >Well, it was just a thought (an orignial one, I thought). It just >seems to easy for JKR to say, yes, he's evil. Really, really evil. >I'm always hoping for a twist, somewhere. Me too, DangerMouse. 100% evil characters usually bore me (I like the scene in Borgin's a lot, though--Lucius intrigues me even if he's all evil, all the time). Anyway, it was a great post: lots of specific support, and out-there enough to be original but not so out-there as to be insane (though I may not be a good judge, since I am rapidly sliding down into the Snape is a Vampire camp's pit of late). Keep them theories coming! How's this for a theory: Lucius is Mrs. Longbottom's brother and that's why he gives so much money to St. Mungo's. Also, naturally, her torture was what turned him against the Death Eaters. BTW, as you have already discovered, the tough thing about defending Lucius is that not only do most people hate Lucius, but those who you might think would be your natural allies, the Defenders of Draco, are going to try to shoot you down also because their theories depend upon Lucius being an insane, abusive, most likely sexually-abusing father. This is tactless timing--newbies should get 5 free posts before anyone can disagree with them--but I want to defend Sirius against this statement: DM wrote: >Maybe the ability to work magic without wands can be >developed in and adult, but I would assume it would take a lot of >skill and self control to tap it - something I don't think Sirius has >after being locked in Azkaban (we've seen is temper...). I think Sirius shows amazing self-control: not in PA, I grant you, though he does defer to Lupin, but in GF. One thing that really strikes me about Sirius after PA is that he has failed almost completely in what he set out to do. He's been on the lam for a year in hopes of killing Peter and protecting Harry. At the end of the book, Peter is on his way to Voldemort; within two months, Harry's scar is hurting him and bad rumors are flying; within five months someone has put Harry's name in the Goblet. So much for Sirius's plans. In the meantime, Sirius is no closer to having his name cleared (though at least Lupin and Dumbledore now know the true story), and he's a lot closer to getting killed than when he was in Azkaban. He didn't escape in order to clear his name, but still. Considering what a disastrous several months it's been, his restraint and careful action in GF are amazing. More from D "no, it doesn't stand for Draco Malfoy" M: >I thought speculation was okay (and is usually a good topic for >discussion). It is! Yikes, what else would we do all day? Canon clarifications can only occupy so much time, and most of us lack the talent for filks. Speculation is terrific--just delineate it from canon or you'll get 50 posts saying "Where did she say that? That changes everything!" and you'll have to take out an ad in the Times to remedy things. >Oh, and not to bring up another subject, but is it a general consensus that >Wizards in the HP universe live longer lives than normal humans? Consensus, and also canon; JKR said so in an interview. (I don't know which one, but even Amanda the Keeper of Canon will support me on this one .) Vicky re: Dumbledore: >Or maybe he was just tricked, like everyone else who thought >Lockhart actually did the stuff he wrote about. But it just occurs to me >that the only people who thought he did that stuff was Molly and Hermione. Lockhart is a bestselling author--is everyone reading this stuff as fiction or, more likely, does most of the wizarding world think he really does dash around the world fighting off werewolves and trolls? Magda wrote: >I can see him: > >1. Developing a crush on Hermione and trying to impress her with >name-dropping, flashing his family's wealth and other Malfoy-ish >tactics that won't work, to his bafflement. He could also brag to >her about V's doings (as he hears them from Daddy) and she might put >up with him just to get the info. I can see the former, but is he dumb enough for the latter? Hermione and Harry would have to have a serious falling-out (at least an apparent one) for D to think it's safe, or likely to make him look good, to tell her anything about what V is up to. Rosmerta wrote: >So, in hindsight, what *was* crucial in Book Four? Plotwise, it seems >clear that it's the return of Voldemort to his body. I also still wonder about the shift in attitudes toward Harry that get underway in GF and could prove pivotal. Fudge, formerly one of his biggest fans ("Ah, well, Snape--Harry Potter, you know," PA 21), is seriously suggesting that he's off his rocker or evil ("the boy can talk to snakes!") by the end; is this just Fudge being a tad unbalanced and it's temporary, or will it spell serious trouble for Harry and Our Side with the ministry? For Harry Potter no longer to be the emblem of The Good Guys is a sea change. The other reason I think this might be a key issue is the importance of Rita Skeeter. JKR's comments about her "huge plot hole" suggest (not conclusively) that the vehicle for getting info outside Hogwarts was very important to the plot; now, why would that be? I've said this before, but most of what comes of Skeeter's articles is not essential to the plot (so far). It just creates a lot of good side-issue stuff about Hermione, Hagrid, etc. But if it's so all-fired important, perhaps it's because it's due to Rita Skeeter that Harry is now seen in the wizarding world as a crazy and possibly dangerous person. Good thing she didn't get to write her expose on how he killed his fellow Champion. ____ days til OoP, Amy Z P.S. Does anyone else get chills thinking that right this very moment JKR could be writing Lupin's (Dumbledore's, Percy's, fill in your favorite possibly-doomed character here) death scene? Or is it just me? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 10:46:06 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:46:06 -0000 Subject: Photos, new members, Sirius/Lupin. Scar In-Reply-To: <9gk1eg+un9c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gkm5e+jci9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21094 I will try not to use the 'Check Archive' curse but a bit hard to avoid ... > 3) I agree that Sirius made a mistake when he was 16, but I don't > think he honestly still thinks he was justified in making that > decision. When he made the comment at the end of PoA, Snape had just > nearly given him to the dementors AND caused the loss of Wormtail to > V. This is a very, very common misconception -- Snape had absolutely nothing to do with the escape of Wormtail. Wormtail escaped when Lupin transformed into a werewolf because he hadn't taken the potion. It was an absolute accident. Snape had lost his cool completely, and Sirius was reacting to > that situation. Lupin, OTOH, has come across completely as a warm, > fun, and couragous man. I would have to say he is my fave charcter > (after Hagrid) I agree with the comment about Lupin, who is just plain 'cool'. As for the reason Snape totally lost it, there are many, many theories. I'm tempted to yell check archive but since you specifically requested a full explanation/discussion, I will do my best to sum up all the wisdom the posters have come up with in the past. First and foremost is the popular Lily/Snape theory. If Snape had been in love with Lily, then it makes a lot of sense that he would want Sirius to be worse than dead because Sirius killed Lily. (for all the details of Lily/Snape, you really have to check the archive because it is even longer than my dissertation or go to the Snape fans group to restart the big debate we had a few weeks ago ... ) Other posters have also pointed out that Snape has been under a lot of stress in PoA. Note that these events are viewed in Snape's POV which is bound to be a little bit twisted: Snape just found out that D. decided to hire his childhood enemy to be the next DADA teacher, right around the time Lupin's friend had escaped Azkaban and set off to Hogwarts to kill Potter; Dumbledore had made it quite clear that Lupin was above suspicion and that just frustartes Snape; he not only has to keep quiet about Lupin but also brew a Potion for Remus every twenty-eight days; adding to his troubles, the famous Harry Potter thinks that he is above the rules set for his own safety and it falls on Snape to go running after him again. Life is unfair for our Sevvie. Now, he is in the Shrieking Shack and it looks like he is right all along: Lupin's helping his convicted murderer friend and the three obnoxious Gryffindor kids just wouldn't shut up. Is he going to just sit down and listen to wild theories from a convicted murderer? If he did listen, he would be terribly OOC, which can only happen in fanfic. Blame his creator. Of course, as a quintessential Slytheirn he just couldn't resist getting an old enemy AND an order of Merlin at the same time. > 4) I am curious as to what format everyone thinks the last three > books to have. My guess is that Book 7 will be almost completely > explanation. I almost wonder if whether the main climax might happen > at the end of 6/ early 7. Then someone (Dumbledore if he is still > alive) explains to Harry all that has happend. Or, Harry explains > everything to someone else. Explanation proceeds on, ending with the > night James and Lily died.. I agree bk. 7 would be the 'explanation book but I think the big Climax has to be right at the end -- after all the explanations. I have a feeling what has transpired in the Godric's Hollow is important to the defeat of Voldemort. I guess this is one of the reasons JKR said wizards come of age at 17, so Harry will be of age at the beginning of bk. 7 and all the informations would be revealed to him over the course of the book. Also, even if Dumbledore isn't around anymore, there is always the Pensieve. My pure speculation is that Snape is likely to be the 'answer' guy if he is still around and Dumbledore isn't. He seems to be the only other person who knows almost as much as D. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Mon Jun 18 10:48:12 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:48:12 -0000 Subject: DADAism Message-ID: <9gkm9c+c2pj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21095 MMMfanfic wrote: "I also wonder whether the DADA job is really jinxed or Dumbledore just like new staff in that position every year to keep himself amused. (may be that's why he hired Lockhart) After all, it seemed like most of the staff except the DADA have been in Hogwarts forever. Fifty years in the same school -- how can Dumbledore stand it?" I honestly don't think that Dumbledore might go as far as hiring a git like Lockhart in order to amuse himself, he takes his headm?ster duties much too serious. But why did he hire lockhart in the first place? he surely knew what kind of person he was. Perhaps there was nobody else and he really doesn't want to give Severus the job?! From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 18 11:05:42 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:05:42 -0000 Subject: so what *was* crucial? (was End of an Era) In-Reply-To: <9gh7d2+6v7p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gkna6+7kio@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21096 Rosmerta asked: > So, in hindsight, what *was* crucial in Book Four? Plotwise, it seems clear that it's the return of Voldemort to his body. > In the first four books, Harry is a pupil attending a school. In this framework, he is threatened by evil and tugged by romance. In his holidays he does a few other things. Dumbledore is a headmaster running a school, while keeping an eye out for contingencies that might arise from Voldemort. In the last three books Harry is an active fighter against evil who has to do his best to keep up studies in the meantime. He has to start keeping up some pretences, like believing that Snape is just a nasty teacher and no more. Dumbledore is a master plotter who has to run a school on the side. The whole Hogwarts milieu which has been the structure within which everything is set now becomes a piece of cardboard scenery behind which the real story is happening. A lot of the real action may take place at other locations to which JKR will contrive to take Harry - as with V's rebirthing. He will have to get back with plausible excuses for missing Prof Binns, with only covert backup from D. BTW, COS makes it pretty clear that Fudge has very little power to do anything with Hogwarts. When he says not many Ministers would let D appoint werewolves etc I think that's just bluster: he had no choice. He wasn't allowed to bring dementors in in PoA (and McGonagall makes it sound like he broke a 'school rule' bringing one in GOF). But in any case the Wizarding world is now split between D's followers and business-as-usual MOM people (and of course a much smaller no of DEs) David, thinking that transcripts are unreliable, and she meant the end of an ERROR - there will be no more HP books, at all, ever. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Mon Jun 18 11:16:17 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:16:17 -0000 Subject: Lucius & other villains Message-ID: <9gknu1+fugp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21097 I think I know why I have chosen "pigwidgeon" as my ID, I suppose I'm becoming as disorientated as he is- before long I'll be hopping up and down madly, and probably in a cage (at St. Mungo's???) In one of the zillions of mails that came in during the weekend, somebody stated Lucius Malfoy was simply too evil and would therefore become boring if he didn't change. That might be a good point, but just think of Jago who is one of the most evil villains in literature and certainly not boring (and wouldn't have been so in the 5th Othello sequel). I don't see many ways of his going over to our side, though. BUT: What do you think of this one: Lucius gets into some personal conflict with Voldemort in book5, V. Avada Kedavras him out and this is Draco's motive to finally change sides? This theory would go well with what Susan wrote: "I see Draco as quite a plausible candidate for a last minute, sacrificial switch to the good guys. The question is, what would motivate him to do it? Possible ill-treatment of a loved on by Voldemort would be the classic motive, but who would be the loved one? " AmyZ wrote: "BTW, as you have already discovered, the tough thing about defending Lucius is that not only do most people hate Lucius, but those who you might think would be your natural allies, the Defenders of Draco, are going to try to shoot you down also because their theories depend upon Lucius being an insane, abusive, most likely sexually-abusing father." IMHO, Lucius is no more insane than Dumbledore, he is just a real Jago character and very very cruel (doing Muggle- torturing for Voldemort and enjoying it). As JKR anyway is so skilled in avoiding things that might become boring (like abandoning Quidditch matches at Hogwarts for the Triwizard Tournament- I wonder how she'll do it in OoP???), the only way I see is to get Lucius killed. Either, as I already said, by V. himself, or maybe by Snape??? He'd do it for the good cause, but Draco would think he did it for V. and therefore change sides. I solemnly declare that this has been the last mail for today!! Susanna From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 18 11:34:54 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:34:54 -0000 Subject: Race/ethnicity nitpicks (was Re: Trolls, OWLs, and such) In-Reply-To: <9ggrus+a0m2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gkp0u+co0d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21098 "Michelle Barnett" asked: > Can someone please tell me where in Canon I can find the references > to the race of Cho, Angelina, etc.? I've read all 4 books like 15 > times each and I apparently keep missing the refernces. > Cho Chang. AFAIK, it's the name only. As some of the other posts are making clear, that's not conclusive. Angelina. In the 'Goblet of Fire' chapter of GOF, I think. She's tall too. Lee's dreadlocks are mentioned on the platform in PS/SS. In the UK this would usually imply he's Black. Dean. This is interesting. I'm pretty sure he's not described as Black in the UK editions, but he is in the US. Given that JKR kept control of the US versions, I take this to mean he really is Black, but she thought explicitly mentioning it was too obvious (ie might smack of tokenism), but that Scholastic thought different. In any case, an interesting little light on the publishing process. Parvati and Padma. Names only, I think. Seamus' family supports Ireland and he is scared of Banshees. Krum is in the Bulgarian team (birth qualification?). His dad speaks Bulgarian. Karkaroff's name sounds like long-standing Russian (or Belorussian, Ukrainian, even Bulgarian etc.) emigre family perhaps via France (Russian names are now transliterated into English ending in -ov). It doesn't sound Polish, Czech, Yugoslav etc to my ear. Ludo and Otto Bagman have a slight thousand years out-of-date German ring to them. Ollivander - ancient Greek? Dedalus Diggle - an immigrant from Tolkien's Middle Earth? Finally, I don't think we should assume that Asian or other immigrant families are Muggles, so that, for example, Cho could be from a Wizarding family. David, still waiting for Ms E. E. Thomas to bring the unique insights of her Welsh heritage... From blpurdom at yahoo.com Mon Jun 18 12:41:53 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:41:53 -0000 Subject: Parting of the Ways, SHIPPING Fleur & Bill In-Reply-To: <9gkffl+fphd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gksuh+arg0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21099 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Dumbledore: I agree with everybody that he won't be able to be > headmaster of Howarts any longer, at least not in the way he has > been so far. Everybody! Who's everybody? (Man, I've been too busy writing fanfic to pay attention to every post; gotta make more time...) Dumbledore will go on as Headmaster, IMO, although he may again here or there be temporarily removed as loyalties on the board of governors shift with how powerful Voldemort is and what Fudge's position is. But although I think he may perish at the end (and only VERY close to the end) I think he will always nominally be the Headmaster. > If Dumbledore retired because he himself decided it would be better > for the school, who is going to take his place? Snape? (Remember > Draco telling him in CoS that he would certainly get his father's > vote- which means the rest of the school governors' too?) Snape's going to be targeted by Voldemort. Remember the Pensieve? Dumbledore vouching for Snape...It is public knowledge that he turned against Voldemort, and it's possible that the reason why Dumbledore hired him in the first place was to give him refuge at Hogwarts, where he would be safe. If an interim head teacher is needed from time to time (since Dumbledore may also engage in some covert work, along with Snape) that head teacher will probably be McGonagall. > > Anyway, how's the situtation at Hogwarts going to develop? There > are parents that clearly stand on V.'s side (Crabbe, Goyle, malfoy > and perhaps others), others who are as clearly on Dumbly's side > (Weasleys and a lot of others), but what about the Muggle- borns > and the undecided? I somehow feel that life at Hogwarts is not > going to be very pleasant, as the gap between pro and contra V. > will divide not only Slytherin from the other houses, but also run > through the single houses. I definitely see divisions coming between purebloods, half-bloods, Muggle-borns, and purebloods and half-bloods who are considered "traitors" to their "races." This will probably even occur in good old Gryffindor house. Perhaps even instructors will begin to behave differently toward their students because of their background (I have a vision of little Flitwick getting very snippy to anyone who's not pureblood). No one will know who to trust... --Barb (catching up...) From bohners at pobox.com Mon Jun 18 12:45:13 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:45:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: so what *was* crucial? (was End of an Era) References: <9gkna6+7kio@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <043801c0f7f5$6590a3c0$26b9e2d1@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 21100 I kept waiting for somebody to mention this, but either nobody did, or I missed it. To me the biggest change in GoF is not the return of Voldie to his body, but the fact that he used Harry's blood to do it -- AND NOW HE CAN TOUCH HARRY. Before this, Harry was still under protection from a direct assault by V., but now there's nothing "special" about him any more, or so it seems (though I very much doubt this is the case). I'd call that "the end of an era", too. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Mon Jun 18 13:31:32 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:31:32 -0400 Subject: On Draco (characterization, abuse), topics in general, and canon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21101 Magda wrote: > > Apologies to Draco fans up front but I can't see Draco having a big > part to play in future books or having any kind of major personal > transformation to the "good side". > Draco is painted with strokes that are too broad to make him a > carefully delineated character. He's more of a type ("spoiled rich > brat") than a real person. But a lot of the "major-minor" characters (those with not many lines but a presence that is visible in all 4 books to date) have the capability of becoming much more - look at Ginny - yes, she had a role in Book 2, but a lot of that role was to be unconscious while Harry battled Riddle and the basilisk. And until the very end of Book 3, Snape was not a carefully delineated character at all - he was the Mean Teacher, really. And it was only in Book 4 that we got a picture of some of the Nuances of Snape Amy wrote: "BTW, as you have already discovered, the tough thing about defending Lucius is that not only do most people hate Lucius, but those who you might think would be your natural allies, the Defenders of Draco, are going to try to shoot you down also because their theories depend upon Lucius being an insane, abusive, most likely sexually-abusing father." It all depends on how you define insane. Obviously, he's not insane under the M'Naughton rule - he does know where he is & what is happening, and he doesn't think, in CoS, that he's handing a jelly donut to a puppy dog when he gives Riddle's diary to Ginny. You can argue that he has a mental illness - possibly antisocial personality disorder, which is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the culture. But that would require the moral and/or legal standards in the wizarding world to think badly of those prejudiced against house elves and muggle-born wizards & witches, and I'm not perfectly sure that he is so diametrically outside the moral & legal standards that he would match that definition in the wizarding culture, which is, of course, the only one that counts here. Abusive? Yes, I think he is - at least psychologically abusive - the scene in CoS at Mr Borgin provides at least a hook to hang that theory on. But I don't defend the idea that Draco may not end up as a Bad Death Eater Guy based solely on the impression of evilness that Lucius gives - but if he isn't going to end up Bad, then he's going to have to break with Lucius at some point, mentally and physically and emotionally. DM wrote: > Ack. My apologies. I guess I didn't read my "Welcome to > HPforGrownups" e-mail closely enough. I thought speculation was okay > (and is usually a good topic for discussion). In my mind, > I 'know.' Being a fanfiction writer (which many of us are), cannon > is always a kind of hazy line to cross (since so many things can be > read into any series). Sorry if I've offended anyone's sensibilities > here. I'll be more careful in the future. I don't think this is something that's so clearly spelled out in the Welcome message (hey, elves - is this something we want to add to our general checklist for Elflings?). Speculation is wonderful and ok and all those other good things. I write (and beta-read) fanfic as well, and I personally feel (IMHO and all) that anything can be done in fanfic as long as you have canon backup for it. In other words, since JKR has said in a chat that Ron's birthday is March 1, anyone who writes fanfic after that chat *must* have his birthday then. Or since she wrote in canon that Angelina is black, anyone who writes fanfic after GoF came out *must* have her as being black. But if you want to speculate as to how wizards travel long distances based on the one line in QTTA that many wizards do not apparate long distances and therefore before brooms were comfortable, they traveled by ship, all the better for you! Just sprinkle your posts with a few IMHO and AFAIK and drop the "know" and replace it with "think" or "believe" or "have concluded that it is possible that..." and you'll be alright. PurpleFanta wrote > As a new member, I am sure i have done the same. But IMHO, with all > the new people, I am sure that there are lots of new ideas on old > topics. i don't think it is possible to exist as a discussion group > and not bring up topics time and time again. When I have a question, > I want to know what this group thinks now... not what they decided a > few months ago. Perhaps, I have no right to make this request, but > please don't yell "check the archives" everytime us newbies have > question... it makes me long for a Cheering Charm... For discussion topics, that's a perfectly reasonable request. For fact questions, like When is Ron's Birthday (see above) or "Which House Is Flitwick Head Of (ravenclaw, in case someoene forgot) there's nothing to discuss and there are no ideas to have. There is information from JKR which is either in the archives or in Steve's Lexicon (linked to from the front page of the yahoogroup) and when it comes to things like that, people should do a simple search, like RON BIRTHDAY, and get the info they need. I haven't noticed many "stiffles" of dicsussion, just pointers to the archives for "fact" questions From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jun 18 13:46:47 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 06:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Has Draco been abused? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010618134647.60524.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21102 << (and there is NO evidence that Draco is being abused in any way - not even any that he does not like and respect his father), >> > I'm sorry-- there is the scene in CoS that takes place in Mr. > Borgin's "Dark Articles Dispersal Shoppe" in Knockturn Alley that > speaks volumes of emotional abuse to me:... Lucius didn't stop with > merely dispensing parental guidance, he was > shaming, quelling, putting down Draco... > I know shaming and guilt inducement are used by many in caregiver > roles to "build character" or what have you; that doesn't make it > any less emotionally abusive, or even right. I'm with Dangermouse on this one: granted that it's a put-down, it doesn't qualify as emotional abuse to me. It didn't even work, IIRC. I thought there was a tone of "determined to get the last word" to Lucius' comments. Like a lot of parents, Lucius has selective memories of his own childhood and is trying to keep his kid in line (and failing) without realizing what he's doing. Sensitive new-age guy he's not but we really don't have any evidence that he's mean to Draco at all. They certainly talk about many things together - to the point where I wonder just how incredibly trustworthy the owl post is if letters about delicate subjects like the heir of Slytherin in CoS go back and forth so much. I don't think Draco exhibits any signs of being an abused or even mistreated child. The Malfoy's probably have a warped sense of love just like everything else about them is skewed but abusive isn't there. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Jun 18 14:10:51 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:10:51 -0500 Subject: SHIP: Of Love and War (More) Message-ID: <3B2E0BEB.C4EAA96B@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21103 Hi everyone -- My favorite topic and I've been unable to get online to do more than *read* messages (fuming all the while that I haven't had time to respond) ... Amy Z wrote: > I don't know what Jenny meant by "tensions" between Harry and > Hermione, but what I mean by it (and the lack of it) is not "they > don't bicker" but "there's no romantic/sexual tension." When you fall > for someone, it introduces an awkwardness into your thoughts and words > that doesn't disperse until your feeling are out in the open. > > We don't know what Hermione is feeling "first-hand." I have read the > H/H Mission Statement (msg 13842) and still don't see any sign of this > kind of tension emanating from her. But it's a matter of opinion, of > course. We have a "Mission Statement"? Did I write it? Sorry ... no time to check that reference right now. > > > BTW, I do identify with Hermione and I would choose Harry over Ron in > a heartbeat, yet I'm still an R/Her. That's because my shipping > (in this instance) isn't about what I want to see but what I think JKR > is going to do. Amy isn't the only one to say recently, "I'm R/H because that's where I see the canon going." Can someone explain this philosophy to me? Am I reading "I might possibly *prefer* another pairing other than R/H, but I don't see it ever happening so I'll just favor R/H by default"? I admit to not understanding this position too well. > So the question is, > if bickering ruins romances (and it can), does it ruin friendships > too (of course it can, but is it inevitable)? Those of you who think > R/H will never fly as a long-term romance, do you predict a cooling in > their friendship too? Just like romances, bickering *can* ruin friendships too. I don't, however, necessarily predict a cooling off in the R/H friendship due to their bickering. It's still possible that another "Crookshanksgate" as Ebony termed it could irreparably damage their friendship. But, I think I see the friendship aspect being pretty solid at this point, although Ron's jealousies, insecurities & ambitions make me nervous for his friendships with both Hermione & Harry. But, I think a romantic relationship between R/H would take the bickering & spatting to a whole new level. Seems to me that the barbs would cut a bit deeper and be harder to repair if there was a romance involved. I do know that there are couples who thrive on this sort of thing, so I do acknowledge that there are successful bickering-style relationships out there. I would personally not want to be involved in one. I think Carole was right: Hollywood would have us believe this is far more common than is the case though. Ebony wrote: > What's that quote from Stephen King? "The best friends I ever had, I had at > twelve years old?" After the latency period ends, everything gets > complicated... which is perhaps why JKR has put off letting the characters > hit puberty for so long. I think you've hit on why GoF really didn't take our characters as far into adolescence as their chronological ages might dictate. She has said she doesn't want to keep them rooted in pre-pubescence forever, and I do think she means that. But, I think it gets more complicated and perhaps she wasn't ready to introduce that sort of complication into the plot at the GoF stage. Maybe she used GoF to lay the groundwork. Maybe I'm about to ramble my way right into my pet theories about FITD, perceived FITD, love, betrayal, blah, blah, blah. I'll stop now! Jenny wrote: > As someone who likes Ginny very much, I'm curious to know what it is > exactly about Ginny that people do not like (it has been mentioned > before). There are other characters who aren't well developed yet are > well loved (Neville, Fred, George...). I think we need to know more > about Ginny, though and I'm happy to say that JKR will be developing > her character more in OoP. I disagree that Neville & Fred/George aren't well developed yet. I think those characters are definitely more fleshed out than Ginny. I can probably name all the Ginny scenes, because I've studied them carefully in an effort to understand why I don't like her character much. I know I should be more forgiving of what I perceive as faults in the first two books since she is so very young in those books but .... She has 2 lines in SS, both of which are whining to her mother about spotting HP (she seems more like 6 than 10/11 in my book). While we see glimmers of strength & character by GoF, she really only has one scene of gumption in CoS (the bookstore scene) and is hardly seen at all in PoA. F&G, by contrast, are really portrayed as Harry's only real friends outside of the Trio. Someone posted a link a few months ago to some online source that had ranked each character in order of the character's spoken words. F&G were considerably higher than Ginny IIRC. Speaking of sources (and BTW, I agree heartily with Amanda that things stated as "JKR said" should really be accompanied by a source please) -- could someone please point me to the source that supports the notion that JKR has said Ginny will be important/developed more in Book 5. I've seen repeated references to that but never heard a source. I've read tons of JKR interviews -- not just out of interest but also because I've written the JKR FAQ. I don't recall where people have picked up on Ginny's future importance to the plot as confirmed by JKR. RON: Thanks to Lisa I for a wonderfully insightful post about Ron and how he might actually pull himself together post-GoF. I have had alot of doubts about Ron, based on GoF. Your post gave me some good reasons to expect more from him in OoP & beyond. :--) Lots of other great posts on non-shipping topics, but I'm sadly low on time for online interaction right now. Will hopefully catch up later! Penny From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 18 15:32:53 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:32:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP: What is Shipping? (was Of Love and War (More)) In-Reply-To: <3B2E0BEB.C4EAA96B@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9gl6v5+kn5v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21104 Penny wrote: > Hi everyone -- > > Amy Z wrote: > > > BTW, I do identify with Hermione and I would choose Harry over Ron in > > a heartbeat, yet I'm still an R/Her. That's because my shipping > > (in this instance) isn't about what I want to see but what I think JKR > > is going to do. > > Amy isn't the only one to say recently, "I'm R/H because that's where I > see the canon going." Can someone explain this philosophy to me? Am I > reading "I might possibly *prefer* another pairing other than R/H, but I > don't see it ever happening so I'll just favor R/H by default"? I admit > to not understanding this position too well. > Penny When I joined this list, (mid-April) and read the VFAQ, I realised that considerable energy had been expended for and against various shipping positions (BTW, is Ship a purely HP term?) and thought, how is there a contest, it's obviously Ron and Hermione? Some time later, looking at the archives, I realised, d'oh, that people were talking about what they'd *prefer* to see, either in future canon, or post-canon, in fanfic. My personal reaction to that is, why should anyone care about that? But if they do want to care, that's fine. I don't intend to get involved. However, it is of great interest to me, and On-Topic as I understand it (is that OT for short?) to consider: a) what are the characters' feelings for each other at any stage in the story b) where this is leading in future canon I think these are different from preferences, but someone who has an answer to one of these questions might still be fairly regarded as a 'shipper'. I also think that they have historically (ie in the last few months!) been termed as 'no-shippers'. Hence the confusion. I have fairly firm views (they have been modified by posts of H/H shippers, (Mission Statement by Ebony) BTW) about the former, see below. I would like to have views about the latter, but don't. My initial R/H position, in the sense that I felt there was a developing attachment between Ron and Hermione, has changed in that I now think that what Hermione really feels is covered by a very old- fashioned bit of maidenly modesty. Krum flatters her but does not touch the core of her being: she will be very proper toward him. As Amy Z says in the comments I now realise I've snipped, there is no 'tension' in her dealing with Harry . Nearly all of her behaviour towards Ron is most easily explained as injured pride and righteous anger at his appalling behaviour; all of it could be explained that way but one or two bits I feel on balance indicate feelings for Ron - but it's all pretty inconclusive. All JKR's comments in chats etc that I've come across (see how he cunningly avoids the lengthy hunt for chapter and verse) are mostly testament to her talent for ambiguity. They are not inconsistent with the above, IMO. Ginny demands a separate, possibly lengthy post. I hear the groans. Suffice to say that when Ron tells her brutally to 'go away' near the beginning of PoA, the brutality seems to me to be JKR's in shoving her off the stage effectively for at least two books (why didn't she put her in the hospital scene at the end of GOF? I don't know). If I say any more you can call me Narcissa, David, deeply impressed by the standard of debate here. From lrcjestes at earthlink.net Mon Jun 18 15:30:03 2001 From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (lrcjestes at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:30:03 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Of Love and War (More) In-Reply-To: <3B2E0BEB.C4EAA96B@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9gl6pr+qksr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21105 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote: > > Speaking of sources (and BTW, I agree heartily with Amanda that things > stated as "JKR said" should really be accompanied by a source please) -- > could someone please point me to the source that supports the notion > that JKR has said Ginny will be important/developed more in Book 5. > I've seen repeated references to that but never heard a source. It's in an interview with the Philadelphia Inquirer: My mom sent me the actual article, which I can not find at the moment, but did find it online: Here is the quote and below it is the link to the full article. Also, Rowlings said, Ginny Weasley - little sister to Harry's best friend, Ron, who's been nursing a crush on Harry for the first four books - "will play more of a role in Book Five." http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/11/12/books/ROWL12.htm carole From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Mon Jun 18 16:20:08 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:20:08 -0000 Subject: Parting of the Ways, SHIPPING Fleur & Bill In-Reply-To: <9gkffl+fphd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gl9no+fm52@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21106 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Maybe the V.-followers are all going to Durmstrang? > I think that's possible. However, I can easily see DE parents siding with Fudge about Harry's delusions. Moreover I can see another PJP (polyjuice potion)incident in which a DE child is substituted by the DE parent or another DE (Wormtail) to spy for the Dark Side. Remember Hagrid said that once a wizard(witch) went over to the Dark Side they didn't care about anything else. Even if the DEs have reformed, Voldemort can use their children's safety as blackmail. > What do you think of a possible romance coming up between Fleur, who > said she was going to return to improve her language skills, and Bill > whom she had eyed with great interest not minding he had a ponytail > and an earring with a fang? Personally, I found the Fleur character very irritating and the more I re-read GOF, the more irritating the character becomes. Fleur was the one 'checking out' Bill; IIRC, the book didn't say if Bill noticed her. I just hope there isn't yet another 'crush' theme in the books. A big problem I see with a Fleur-Bill relationship is distance. Bill works at Gringotts-Egypt. Fleur is in England or France. Unless, Bill get transferred to Gringotts-London or Gringotts-Paris (if such a branch exists). I really don't see how J.K. Rowling will put them in close enough proximity to even talk to each other. Milz From vderark at bccs.org Mon Jun 18 16:59:22 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:59:22 -0000 Subject: searching for facts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9glc1a+m7sc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21107 Forgive the Lexicon-related post, but this is a follow-up to Heidi's post about finding basic facts, such as Ron's birthday. She suggested doing a search for RON BIRTHDAY and find what you need. You can do that here in the message archives, but that's not going to do you any good in the Lexicon. If you're not familiar with the Lexicon, it's a browsable encyclopedia of the Harry Potter universe. It contains quite a lot of information (and more all the time) organized by topic. That means that if you're looking for Ron's birthday you will want to find the page that includes biographical information about Ron Weasley. That page might not actually include the word "birthday" on it (in fact, it doesn't...it says "born:"). So probably the best way to track down a tidbit like that is to browse to the Wizarding World index and find the link for Wizard Folk. There's a list of main characters there with links to their pages. As long as I'm stealing everyone's email time with this Lexicon business, let me just mention that there are now THREE special sections -- reference works from Madam Pince's ready referernce shelf, shall we say -- that are now live. I've been adding information to them as fast as I can. They are The Bestiary, The Encyclopedia of Spells, and The Wizard's Atlas. Click on The Wizarding World and you'll find nice clickable logos for each one. Thanks Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Jun 18 17:37:22 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:37:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: What is Shipping? (was Of Love and War(More)) References: <9gl6v5+kn5v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B2E3C52.4CB41886@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21108 Hi -- dfrankis at dial.pipex.com wrote: > > When I joined this list, (mid-April) and read the VFAQ, I realised > that considerable energy had been expended for and against various > shipping positions (BTW, is Ship a purely HP term?) and thought, how > is there a contest, it's obviously Ron and Hermione? Some time > later, looking at the archives, I realised, d'oh, that people were > talking about what they'd *prefer* to see, either in future canon, or > post-canon, in fanfic. Actually, that's not a true statement with many H/H types. Yes, we'd *prefer* to see H/H. But, we also see evidence that Hermione has feelings for Harry, not Ron. So, it's more than just something we'd prefer. Many of us believe in FITD (Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Harry and Harry likes no one or someone else altogether). There's plenty of canon evidence for that outcome. You'll find that most shippers have solid canon evidence to back up their positions. :--) > I think these are different from preferences, but someone who has an > answer to one of these questions might still be fairly regarded as > a 'shipper'. I also think that they have historically (ie in the > last few months!) been termed as 'no-shippers'. Hence the confusion. Actually, historically, a "no-shipper" is someone who either doesn't care at all which characters get paired up with other characters OR someone who actively wants there to be no romance angle subplots in the books at all. Penny From counterfeitlove at yahoo.com Mon Jun 18 17:54:15 2001 From: counterfeitlove at yahoo.com (Sarah Rose) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADAism In-Reply-To: <9gkm9c+c2pj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010618175415.86818.qmail@web13102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21109 --- pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it wrote: > I honestly don't think that Dumbledore might go as > far as hiring a > git like Lockhart in order to amuse himself, he > takes his headmster > duties much too serious. But why did he hire > lockhart in the first > place? he surely knew what kind of person he was. > Perhaps there was > nobody else and he really doesn't want to give > Severus the job?! I personally think Dumbledore doesn't give Sev the job because he's good at Potions, and there's probably not a lot of people who are that well-skilled at them. And hiring Lockhart: Maybe, he did it to teach all the kids a lesson. I mean, Lockhart was stupid, but he was "pretty" and supposedly did all those things, so it was to teach them not to believe everything they read. and on the DADA job, I don't think it's jinxed, its professors always just seem to have some afflicition. I'm wondering if Lupin will be coming back, he did teach all the students, but was a werewolf. (did any of that make sense?) oy--thanks to everyone who helped me with the motto, I appreciate it! -sarah __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 18:06:09 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:06:09 -0000 Subject: DE profs, AD out?, Dean, LM insane/abusive?, SHIPping, starting school Message-ID: <9glfuh+2109@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21110 MMM wrote: >If it has to be a female DE DADA, I would like it to be the outrageously evil Mrs. Lestrange. Yeah, but everyone knows about her. Got any suggestions as to how she could infiltrate the place? It's hard to introduce evil professors in other positions because they're always the same person. So if we're going to get a DE professor, someone will have to retire or otherwise vacate the position (Dumble gets kicked out, McGonagall becomes Headmistress, the new Transfiguration teacher is a DE?) or someone we know goes bad (Professor Sprout, Mata Hari of Hogwarts?). Or someone we don't really know goes bad. Professor Sinistra could start tossing students off the Astronomy tower. Re: Dumbledore leaving, that parting shot by Fudge was indeed ominous, but we have yet to see whether he really has the influence to get Dumbledore kicked out. His speech about always having given him free rein might just be bluster, as David suggested, but to me it suggests that he does have the power, whether formal or informal, to replace him. (As for his getting reamed out for violating a mere "school rule," okay, but the rule was set by the greatest wizard of the age, not some hack administrator.) OTOH, if the wizarding world is going to split into those lined up behind Dumbledore and Fudge, which looks likely, Hogwarts may end up a renegade but still functioning school/headquarters for anti-V activity. I definitely can't see Dumbledore being out of the picture even if he's no longer Head. (I wonder what he did for those 3 weeks when he was suspended in CS? Took a much-needed vacation, I hope? Probably not.) David wrote: >Dean. This is interesting. I'm pretty sure he's not described as Black in the UK editions, but he is in the US. Oh, wow. This sent me poring over the books, wondering where on earth she says he's black. Someone else with either edition, please help! I wrote: >the Defenders of Draco, are going to >try to shoot you down also because their theories depend upon Lucius being >an insane, abusive, most likely sexually-abusing father." Heidi wrote: >It all depends on how you define insane. Obviously, he's not insane under >the M'Naughton rule - he does know where he is & what is happening, and he >doesn't think, in CoS, that he's handing a jelly donut to a puppy dog when >he gives Riddle's diary to Ginny. LOL! I assume the M'Naughton rule is the legal standard? I always thought it was cockeyed. I've known lots of crazy people--I mean, diagnosably, inarguably severely mentally ill--and most of them were quite cogent most of the time. It's the 5% of the time, or 5% of the insights, that are screwy that cause the trouble. Anway, I was using "insane" very loosely, but yes, you could easily imagine a Lucius who obsessively controls his wife and/or son, is paranoid, has delusions of grandeur, is narcissistic (meaning clinically), or has some other form of mental illness that doesn't keep him from being an intelligent and mostly rational person. Magda wrote: >I don't think Draco exhibits any signs of being an abused or even mistreated child. Well, he's a bully, both one-on-one and in his general attitude toward the world (i.e., racist). Not all bullies are mistreated, by a long shot, but it to steal Heidi's apt phrase, it's a hook to hang the theory on. Penny wrote: > Am I reading "I might possibly *prefer* another pairing other than R/H, but I >don't see it ever happening so I'll just favor R/H by default"? Nope. You're reading "shipper can mean either 'I want this romance to happen' or 'I think this romance is going to happen,'" and I'm an R/H shipper of the latter variety. I don't care whether they get together. I am a shipper of the former variety about some other relationships. I don't want Harry and Ginny to get together (sorry, Jenny--does this mean you won't want to share my cabin on the Good Ship R/H?). I do want Hagrid and Maxime to get together, if they aren't already. Uh, let's see. I don't want Molly and Arthur to get divorced, but then I haven't noticed anyone worrying about that one. I don't want Percy to marry Penny. I don't care if Harry dates Cho but I don't want it to get serious. I don't want RL to marry anyone but AZ. ::pauses to wipe off hands, get better grip on reality: David wrote: >There is >talk of little else among parents with kids of that age over that >time, as they balance the chance of getting their dear offspring into >the school they want, against the need to ensure avoiding the sink >school next door at all costs. Even the Dursleys had sorted out >Harry's future before the letters arrived. By sending him to the sink school. ?? I don't know the term, but I think I get the idea and Stonewall sounds like it. BTW, is "Stonewall" another underground GLBT reference? ::ducks as hexes fly in from all over the globe:: >On the other hand, a number of places at sought-after schools >mysteriously come free at the last minute over Summer - could this be >the Hogwarts effect as wizard children of Muggle parents are removed >from the system? Some lucky kid got off the waiting list to Eton thanks to Justin . . . of course, he/she wasn't nearly as lucky as Justin himself. Amy Z who would gladly have traded in her college and grad school admissions for 7 years at Hogwarts -------------------------------------------------------- "I'm =not= going to be murdered," Harry said out loud. "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban -------------------------------------------------------- From deeblite at home.com Mon Jun 18 18:27:01 2001 From: deeblite at home.com (Deeblite) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:27:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DE profs, AD out?, Dean, LM insane/abusive?, SHIPping, starting school In-Reply-To: <9glfuh+2109@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010618142556.00b67dd0@netmail.home.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21111 At 06:06 PM 6/18/2001 +0000, you wrote: >MMM wrote: >Or someone we don't >really know goes bad. Professor Sinistra could start tossing students >off the Astronomy tower. Well considering the name that's not really far-fetched. -- Deeblite WTF is an acronym? From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 18:15:45 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:15:45 -0000 Subject: DADAism - Another motto question In-Reply-To: <20010618175415.86818.qmail@web13102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9glggh+5133@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21112 I really lean towards Hagrid's explanation as to how Lockhart got the job: they needed someone and there was literally no one else who would apply. Sarah wrote: > oy--thanks to everyone who helped me with the motto, I > appreciate it! Now I have a motto question. Who drew the crest? JKR herself? The book covers don't say. (FYI, confused newbies, that's the kind of factual question that you can just answer by sending it to me offlist. aiz24 at hotmail.com. Or, if you think the answer is of general interest, which I humbly think it might be, do answer onlist, but check first to make sure 10 other people haven't done so already.) Amy Z -------------------------------------------------------------------- "I've got two Neptunes here," said Harry after a while, frowning down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?" "Aaaaah," said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry. . . ." -HP and the Goblet of Fire -------------------------------------------------------------------- From linman6868 at aol.com Mon Jun 18 18:45:08 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:45:08 -0000 Subject: DE profs, AD out?, Dean, LM insane/abusive?, SHIPping, starting school In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010618142556.00b67dd0@netmail.home.com> Message-ID: <9gli7k+cmhj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21113 Deeblite wrote: > At 06:06 PM 6/18/2001 +0000, you wrote: > >MMM wrote: > >Or someone we don't > >really know goes bad. Professor Sinistra could start tossing students > >off the Astronomy tower. > > Well considering the name that's not really far-fetched. Or (s)he could just be really left-handed, which is where "sinister" came from...the left hand of God and all that stuff. What would be significant about a left-handed astronomy prof? Hmm... (And are we going to attend an Astronomy lesson with H/R/H any time in the future? I'm curious as to how Astronomy differs from Divination, and would like to see some action!) Lisa I. From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 18 19:30:53 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:30:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Of Love and War (More) In-Reply-To: <3B2E0BEB.C4EAA96B@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9glktd+kp2i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21114 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote: > > I disagree that Neville & Fred/George aren't well developed yet. I > think those characters are definitely more fleshed out than Ginny.> Hi Penny - You are absolutely right - Neville, Fred and George are definitely more developed than Ginny, but I feel that we don't know them as well as, say, Ron. I want to know more about Neville, for example, in much the same way I'd like to get to know Ginny better. I read what you said about not liking Ginny and I was wondering if your dislike of her could be that you see her as weak? If I compare Hermione and Ginny, for example, Hermione stands head and shoulders above Ginny in many ways (not counting the fact that she is one of the most important characters in the stories), such as her bravery, being outspoken and always standing up for herself. Perhaps people who don't like Ginny see her as "whining" (as Penny put it) or too unsure of herself (always blushing around Harry) or just too damned quiet? It is interesting to me that the H/H shippers believe that there is canonical evidence that Hermione is interested in Harry beyond friendship, because I never for one minute thought that. After reading some of the examples given, such as Hermione's kiss at the end of GoF and some of the interactions between the two of them, I undertstand where they're coming from, but I still don't see it. However, I am more of an R/H shipper because JKR seems to be taking it that way, not because I think they should be together (although JKR convinces me that they should, at least, give it a shot). I know that I am definitely NOT an H/H shipper; the thought of Hermione and Harry dating makes me weirdly uncomfortable. Amy Z - My cabin on the good ship R/H still has plenty of extra space but I stand alone proudly (like Hermione with S.P.E.W.) on the deck of the good ship H/G, gazing sadly into the distance! --jenny from ravenclaw, who is very happy that all but three of her students passed the English Regents exam, so not much can upset her right now!*********************************** From cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com Mon Jun 18 20:14:00 2001 From: cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com (cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:14:00 -0000 Subject: Movie money Message-ID: <9glne8+7s4v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21115 Today my boyfriend sent me an e-mail with pictures of the money that was made for the Harry Potter movie. There was a picture each of a galleon, sickle, and a knut. But I have to say I was a little bothered by the pictures. They were all round coins and i specifically remember a scene in one of the books where Harry gives Ron muggle money and he is taken by the round shape. Am I being too nitpicky?? I just wonder if this was changed what else was changed. Christine From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Mon Jun 18 21:26:51 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:26:51 -0000 Subject: LM insane/abusive?, SHIPping, In-Reply-To: <9glfuh+2109@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9glrmr+i07b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21116 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > Heidi wrote: > > >It all depends on how you define insane. Obviously, he's not insane > under > >the M'Naughton rule - he does know where he is & what is happening, > and he > >doesn't think, in CoS, that he's handing a jelly donut to a puppy dog > when > >he gives Riddle's diary to Ginny. > > LOL! I assume the M'Naughton rule is the legal standard? I always > thought it was cockeyed. I've known lots of crazy people--I mean, > diagnosably, inarguably severely mentally ill--and most of them were > quite cogent most of the time. It's the 5% of the time, or 5% of the > insights, that are screwy that cause the trouble. Anway, I was using > "insane" very loosely, but yes, you could easily imagine a Lucius who > obsessively controls his wife and/or son, is paranoid, has delusions > of grandeur, is narcissistic (meaning clinically), or has some other > form of mental illness that doesn't keep him from being an intelligent > and mostly rational person. I think we need to differentiate the state of insanity, from that ofbeing responsible for ones actions. I don't believe that any current legal standard need necesarily apply. It is a moral reponsibility that obtains here. IMO, JKR has demonstrated that Lucius is a player, not a pawn, and deserves whatever end he receives. > > Penny wrote: > > > Am I reading "I might possibly *prefer* another pairing other than > R/H, but I > >don't see it ever happening so I'll just favor R/H by default"? > > Nope. You're reading "shipper can mean either 'I want this romance to > happen' or 'I think this romance is going to happen,'" and I'm an R/H > shipper of the latter variety. I don't care whether they get > together. > > I am a shipper of the former variety about some other relationships. > I don't want Harry and Ginny to get together (sorry, Jenny--does this > mean you won't want to share my cabin on the Good Ship R/H?). I do > want Hagrid and Maxime to get together, if they aren't already. Uh, > let's see. I don't want Molly and Arthur to get divorced, but then I > haven't noticed anyone worrying about that one. I don't want Percy to > marry Penny. I don't care if Harry dates Cho but I don't want it to > get serious. I don't want RL to marry anyone but AZ. ::pauses to > wipe off hands, get better grip on reality: > I too believe that Ron and Hermione will end up together, but that is my assessment of JKR's intent; I am disinterested (not uninterested, I do want to know, I just don't have any emotional stke in the outcome.) in who ends up with whom, be it Harry, Ginny, Ron, Krum, Draco, or even Millicent Bulstrode. I just want it to be as well written as JKR usually writes. Hagridd From crabtree at ktc.com Mon Jun 18 21:41:18 2001 From: crabtree at ktc.com (crabtree at ktc.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:41:18 -0000 Subject: Dean Thomas black? Message-ID: <9glshu+p6g5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21117 Amy Z asked: "Oh, wow. This sent me poring over the books, wondering where on earth she says he's black. Someone else with either edition, please help!" According the web site The Leaky Cauldron (which has a translation comparison including English to American) in the UK version of SS on page 91 during the sorting ceremony it is written, "...three people left to be sorted. "Turpin, Lisa became..." and in the US version on page 122 it is written, "...three people left to be sorted. "Thomas, Dean," a black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the Griffindor table. "Turpin..." There is also somewhere on that site an interview with the American editor who says that he and JKR worked together to translate. I think he even comments on this passage. Sorry I'm not clever enough to give you a link, but this is the address: http://www.hpgalleries.com/wordgallery.htm ProfessorPhlash From linman6868 at aol.com Mon Jun 18 21:58:33 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:58:33 -0000 Subject: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships Message-ID: <9glti9+qeai@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21118 Hello all -- I checked the schedule and there's no-one posting on this in depth, so I thought I'd post a few notes and musings on the Weasleys, since they've been on the listmembers' (and my) mind lately. Each member of the Burrow seems to have their particular way of dealing with the infamous Weasley poverty, which is often inconvenient and embarrassing, if not exactly as dire as Draco Malfoy makes out. So here's my take on the nine Weasleys... ARTHUR WEASLEY According to Molly, has been "held back" by being actually interested in the nowhere job of protecting Muggles. No-one else is particularly interested in protecting Muggles or improving Muggle- wizard relations, so clearly not much money gets funneled into that branch of the Ministry (although they obviously have to pay lots of Obliviators to protect *wizards* from *Muggles*). Arthur is willing to pay the price, and have his family pay the price, for that interest and integrity, but it doesn't stop him being tired and worried most of the time we see him. MOLLY WEASLEY Has a fierce family patriotism. Her practical ingenuity holds the family's finances together, and her loyalty makes her a tigress when the sneering Daily Prophet comes to call. Worries as much as Arthur, but takes it out in energetic work and chivvying her children. Wants her children to succeed but not to compromise the Weasley name. BILL WEASLEY Works for the *bank*. And what the heck is a "charm-breaker" at Gringotts? He tells Molly that the goblins don't care how he dresses "as long as he brings home plenty of treasure." Does this mean he's a forecloser or something? Does "bringing treasure home" mean bringing it to the bank or bringing it to himself by working hard at the bank? I suspect it's the former, because of the word "treasure." But I don't see "cool" Bill Weasley taking up anything in the tax-collecting line. Maybe he raids Egyptian tombs like Indiana Jones. He's obviously acquired the ponytail and earring since his Hogwarts days, since Molly tells him his hair's "getting ridiculous". Is this typical firstborn behavior, to sort of kick loose once he leaves school? Not, I think, in a rebellious way exactly; I think Bill has a good humor about himself, and doesn't take himself so seriously that his appearance is an all-important statement. He seems pretty well-adjusted, if that term really means anything. CHARLIE WEASLEY According to Oliver Wood, he "could have played Quidditch for England if he hadn't gone off chasing dragons." Like Arthur, he seems to have pursued his interests regardless of whether they'll pay off financially, like those of us who sell our souls to get a post- graduate degree and become a Starving Artist or Starving Writer. :) Is Charlie a kind of Jane Goodall, or is he working toward a CoMC degree of some sort? PERCY WEASLEY Percy seems to me to be the quintessential Scholarship Boy, what Richard Rodriguez calls a child who plunges headlong into academia and worships authority so as to escape from the hardship of his background (in Rodriguez's case, he was from a working-class Hispanic family). Percy seeks to be the Perfect Customer Service Representative with everyone he deals with, doling out advice and information, teaching or learning with equal alacrity where it might earn him credit. The members of Percy Lovers Unite! may have a soft spot for Percy, but I doubt Percy has a soft spot for himself. At this moment (post-GoF), if he's not sitting in Azkaban for offing BCSr. (whoever posted that gave me thrills and chills), he's probably sitting by the Weasley fireside with his hands clasped miserably between his knees, his mother dosing him with cups of chamomile tea and Ginny trying to badger him into a chess game. FRED and GEORGE WEASLEY Fred and George, in a backlash against Percy's Scholarship-Boyism, have put their considerable wit to work being the zaniest and most mischievous rascals ever to set foot in Hogwarts. They earn their mother's wrath for dawdling about their OWLs, and they plan to become entrepreneurs of joke candies. However, as many have pointed out, they are always generous when they have anything to be generous with, and they notice other people's hardships more than any of the other characters except perhaps Dumbledore. It's one of the twins who worries grimly about their parents' being able to afford all those Lockhart books, and it's usually the twins who notice Harry's various social plights and lend him a hand. These characteristics intensify their anger against Ludo Bagman for cheating them, and test their diplomacy in dealing with him. They also have the Weasley pride; Harry has to threaten them with a hex before they'll take the Triwizard winnings off his hands. I'll post on Ron and Ginny later -- running out of time at the moment. Lisa I. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 18 22:14:55 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:14:55 -0000 Subject: Magic quill, Cho, Wandless, LM, SB, GL, DM, Pivotal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9glugv+4dvt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21119 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > I also still wonder about the shift in attitudes toward Harry that get > underway in GF and could prove pivotal. Fudge, formerly one of his biggest > fans ("Ah, well, Snape--Harry Potter, you know," PA 21), is seriously > suggesting that he's off his rocker or evil ("the boy can talk to snakes!") > by the end; is this just Fudge being a tad unbalanced and it's temporary, or > will it spell serious trouble for Harry and Our Side with the ministry? The portentous title of Chapter 36 in GoF "The Parting of the Ways" suggests a serious long-term breach between Hogwarts and MOM, IMO. > P.S. Does anyone else get chills thinking that right this very moment JKR > could be writing Lupin's (Dumbledore's, Percy's, fill in your favorite > possibly-doomed character here) death scene? Or is it just me? I worry that at this very moment she's not writing "Phoenix" but is instead firing off another memo to Warners' about a flaw in the script or inadequate lighting in the first Great Hall scene. - CMC From vderark at bccs.org Mon Jun 18 22:29:39 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:29:39 -0000 Subject: Movie money In-Reply-To: <9glne8+7s4v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9glvcj+1eas@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21120 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cetoll-calafiore at y... wrote: > Today my boyfriend sent me an e-mail with pictures of the money that > was made for the Harry Potter movie. There was a picture each of a > galleon, sickle, and a knut. These pictures were emailed to me too, along with a blurb about some kind of exclusive first chance to see blah blah blah. The funny thing is, these same pictures appeared on the Harry Potter Galleries website three MONTHS ago! I don't know where they came from this time around, but I'm guessing that Warner Bros might be behind the mysterious emails, trying to scare up a little publicity, but all the while unaware that they're three months behind the rest of us. They are really cool pictures, though. But I have to say I was a little bothered > by the pictures. They were all round coins and i specifically remember > a scene in one of the books where Harry gives Ron muggle money and he > is taken by the round shape. That's what I thought at first too. But then one of my British friends pointed out that the coin Ron was referring to in that passage is in fact hexagonal (or is is septagonal?) and that indicates that Wizard money is almost certainly round. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 22:31:23 2001 From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (Adrienne Nicole Williams) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:31:23 -0000 Subject: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships In-Reply-To: <9glti9+qeai@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9glvfr+ck0b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21121 Over all, I would consider the Weasleys metaphorically the richest family I know. There is a father who is devoted to bettering his family by working. There is a mother who loves all her children equally . The siblings all love each other and are there for each other whenever they need it. I know the characters wouldn't admit it, but they do love each other. Perhaps it is the love in the Weasley house is what Malfoy is jealous of. And, knowing Draco, he's not one to show his insecurity, so he belittles Ron by stressing his poverty. Just a thougth. BTW: I agree with what Linman says about the individual family members. They each have their own ways of dealing with their lack of money. Adrienne --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > Hello all -- > > I checked the schedule and there's no-one posting on this in depth, > so I thought I'd post a few notes and musings on the Weasleys, since > they've been on the listmembers' (and my) mind lately. > > Each member of the Burrow seems to have their particular way of > dealing with the infamous Weasley poverty, which is often > inconvenient and embarrassing, if not exactly as dire as Draco Malfoy > makes out. So here's my take on the nine Weasleys... > > ARTHUR WEASLEY > According to Molly, has been "held back" by being actually interested > in the nowhere job of protecting Muggles. No-one else is > particularly interested in protecting Muggles or improving Muggle- > wizard relations, so clearly not much money gets funneled into that > branch of the Ministry (although they obviously have to pay lots of > Obliviators to protect *wizards* from *Muggles*). Arthur is willing > to pay the price, and have his family pay the price, for that > interest and integrity, but it doesn't stop him being tired and > worried most of the time we see him. > > MOLLY WEASLEY > Has a fierce family patriotism. Her practical ingenuity holds the > family's finances together, and her loyalty makes her a tigress when > the sneering Daily Prophet comes to call. Worries as much as Arthur, > but takes it out in energetic work and chivvying her children. Wants > her children to succeed but not to compromise the Weasley name. > > BILL WEASLEY > Works for the *bank*. And what the heck is a "charm-breaker" at > Gringotts? He tells Molly that the goblins don't care how he > dresses "as long as he brings home plenty of treasure." Does this > mean he's a forecloser or something? Does "bringing treasure home" > mean bringing it to the bank or bringing it to himself by working > hard at the bank? I suspect it's the former, because of the > word "treasure." But I don't see "cool" Bill Weasley taking up > anything in the tax-collecting line. Maybe he raids Egyptian tombs > like Indiana Jones. He's obviously acquired the ponytail and earring > since his Hogwarts days, since Molly tells him his hair's "getting > ridiculous". Is this typical firstborn behavior, to sort of kick > loose once he leaves school? Not, I think, in a rebellious way > exactly; I think Bill has a good humor about himself, and doesn't > take himself so seriously that his appearance is an all-important > statement. He seems pretty well-adjusted, if that term really means > anything. > > CHARLIE WEASLEY > According to Oliver Wood, he "could have played Quidditch for England > if he hadn't gone off chasing dragons." Like Arthur, he seems to > have pursued his interests regardless of whether they'll pay off > financially, like those of us who sell our souls to get a post- > graduate degree and become a Starving Artist or Starving Writer. :) > Is Charlie a kind of Jane Goodall, or is he working toward a CoMC > degree of some sort? > > PERCY WEASLEY > Percy seems to me to be the quintessential Scholarship Boy, what > Richard Rodriguez calls a child who plunges headlong into academia > and worships authority so as to escape from the hardship of his > background (in Rodriguez's case, he was from a working-class Hispanic > family). Percy seeks to be the Perfect Customer Service > Representative with everyone he deals with, doling out advice and > information, teaching or learning with equal alacrity where it might > earn him credit. The members of Percy Lovers Unite! may have a soft > spot for Percy, but I doubt Percy has a soft spot for himself. At > this moment (post-GoF), if he's not sitting in Azkaban for offing > BCSr. (whoever posted that gave me thrills and chills), he's probably > sitting by the Weasley fireside with his hands clasped miserably > between his knees, his mother dosing him with cups of chamomile tea > and Ginny trying to badger him into a chess game. > > FRED and GEORGE WEASLEY > Fred and George, in a backlash against Percy's Scholarship-Boyism, > have put their considerable wit to work being the zaniest and most > mischievous rascals ever to set foot in Hogwarts. They earn their > mother's wrath for dawdling about their OWLs, and they plan to become > entrepreneurs of joke candies. However, as many have pointed out, > they are always generous when they have anything to be generous with, > and they notice other people's hardships more than any of the other > characters except perhaps Dumbledore. It's one of the twins who > worries grimly about their parents' being able to afford all those > Lockhart books, and it's usually the twins who notice Harry's various > social plights and lend him a hand. These characteristics intensify > their anger against Ludo Bagman for cheating them, and test their > diplomacy in dealing with him. They also have the Weasley pride; > Harry has to threaten them with a hex before they'll take the > Triwizard winnings off his hands. > > I'll post on Ron and Ginny later -- running out of time at the moment. > > Lisa I. From ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 22:36:03 2001 From: ChinaChick1616 at hotmail.com (Adrienne Nicole Williams) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:36:03 -0000 Subject: Dean Thomas black? In-Reply-To: <9glshu+p6g5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9glvoj+sv7d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21122 Of course he's black. Anyways, about the editors, I think there should only be one editor. We Americans know enough about England to grasp the fact that we speak different forms of English. We are also more exposed to the English English than most of the English think. We are not *that* stupid! Also, how is JKR supposed to keep her story line straight when she has to worry about aditional characters being added that she doesn't know about? Adrienne PS: Thanks for the link. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., crabtree at k... wrote: > Amy Z asked: > > "Oh, wow. This sent me poring over the books, wondering where on > earth she says he's black. Someone else with either edition, please > help!" > > According the web site The Leaky Cauldron (which has a translation > comparison including English to American) in the UK version of SS on > page 91 during the sorting ceremony it is written, "...three people > left to be sorted. "Turpin, Lisa became..." and in the US version on > page 122 it is written, "...three people left to be sorted. "Thomas, > Dean," a black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the > Griffindor table. "Turpin..." > > There is also somewhere on that site an interview with the American > editor who says that he and JKR worked together to translate. I > think he even comments on this passage. > > Sorry I'm not clever enough to give you a link, but this is the > address: http://www.hpgalleries.com/wordgallery.htm > > ProfessorPhlash From cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com Mon Jun 18 22:48:45 2001 From: cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com (cetoll-calafiore at yorktel.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:48:45 -0000 Subject: Movie money In-Reply-To: <9glvcj+1eas@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gm0gd+8461@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21123 > Steve said: > That's what I thought at first too. But then one of my British > friends pointed out that the coin Ron was referring to in that > passage is in fact hexagonal (or is is septagonal?) and that > indicates that Wizard money is almost certainly round. > So then a 50 pence piece isn't round? That would explain it. I have never seen a pence so I just assumed that it would be round like American money. My mistake. Thanks for the info. Christine From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 23:12:29 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:12:29 -0000 Subject: Movie money In-Reply-To: <9gm0gd+8461@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gm1st+rpl3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21124 Christine wrote: > So then a 50 pence piece isn't round? That would explain it. I have > never seen a pence so I just assumed that it would be round like > American money. Me too (I've been to England but didn't recall any non-round coins). I got the explanation from this list some time back, but I still think the joke would be funnier if a 50p piece were round and wizard money were something weird to our eyes, normal to Ron's. Most coinage I've ever seen around the world is round, so a 50p piece really is weird, not just to wizards. But I guess JKR was making fun of her own mint for coming up with an original but not very practical shape (doesn't it wear holes in your pockets?). Amy Z _____________________________________________________________________ Can't get enough of Comparative Numismatics? Search the OT-chatter archives for extremely long, fascinating discussions on just this topic! ______________________________________________________________________ From linman6868 at aol.com Mon Jun 18 23:14:36 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:14:36 -0000 Subject: Notes on the Weasleys continued... Message-ID: <9gm20s+c8fc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21125 Here are the rest of my musings on the Weasley family in re their hardships... RONALD WEASLEY I've posted a lot on Ron in the last several weeks, so I won't cover the same ground twice...it's probably obvious by now that I really like Ron. We see that what he tells Harry on their first train trip to Hogwarts is true: His brothers before him have all run the spectrum of How To Carry Proudly the Weasley Name, and he's going to have a *very* difficult time trying to find his own niche without being either a cookie-cutter or a loser. He shares Charlie's love of Quidditch, but like Charlie doesn't regard it as a career option, and it's not mentioned that he's even tried out for a spot on the Gryffindor team. He plays lots of chess with Percy, and seems to have the better strategical mind, but like Fred and George is irritated by Percy's obsequiousness. Unlike F&G, however, Ron's wit is too dry to put to active use playing pranks, and so doesn't have much of a way to let off his irritation in some good-old-fashioned fun. He'd probably excel if he acted like Percy, but he can't stand Percy, so he doesn't work at his studies. He's very slowly tumbling to the fact that if he's going to find that niche of his, he's going to have to do it himself; it's not going to fall into his lap. Ron has a challenge ahead of him; and I'm really curious to find out what JKR will do with him next. GINNY WEASLEY Okay, it's been pretty well-established that Penny Doesn't Like Ginny , and that the main reason Ginny's fans are mostly in the closet is that, well, that's where Ginny is most of the time, too. In my view, she has less of a challenge ahead of her than Ron; she's a girl, and whatever that means, it most certainly means that there aren't any other Weasleys who beat her to the punch in every way. Tom Riddle mocks her private anguish when he repeats her diary entries to Harry: "She said her brothers *tease* her, that she had to come to school with secondhand robes and books, and the good, great Harry Potter might *never* like her"... If Riddle hadn't mocked her for us to hear, we might never have known that she has the Weasley pride too. She loves Hogwarts, has been looking forward to getting in on the fun all her life. She "never shuts up normally" -- that is, at home, according to Ron -- but at school, or at least in Harry's presence, keeps her mouth shut except for the occasional leap to Harry's defence. She suffers in silence, but when we get to see her act, she is very practical-minded -- mends her books with Spellotape whereas Ron lets his fall apart (see FB margin notes). She seems to have a special relationship with Percy -- at least, Percy's taken it upon himself to parent her whether she needs it or not, and I suspect she has an instinct similar to his. We don't know what kind of student she is. I'm beating on the glass to see more of her, frankly. Well, that's all on the Weasleys for now. I feel better. Lisa I. From ebonyink at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 23:33:28 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:33:28 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Of Love and War (More) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21126 Hey, HP4GUers! I laughed when I saw David's post... *I* wrote the H/H mission statement? Moi? Fearing a past attack by rogue Obliviators, I checked the archives. Msg. 13842 is entitled "Where to Find the H/H Mission Statement"--something I wrote during the last shipping debate (much more intense than this one is IMO--this one has no teeth, which is nice). In that post, I said "there is no blanket H/H "ship position". I only stated what *I* think, but of course I'm not the entire ship. If there was an H/H Mission Statement, our dear Captain Penny would be the best one to write it. I'm only along for the food... you know, Scott's a terrific SS H/H chef! And my compliments to the bartender as well. ;-) Jenny wrote: >>It is interesting to me that the H/H shippers believe that there is >canonical evidence that Hermione is interested in Harry beyond >friendship, because I never for one minute thought that. After >reading some of the examples given, such as Hermione's kiss at the end >of GoF and some of the interactions between the two of them, I >undertstand where they're coming from, but I still don't see it. That's completely understandable! I can't tell you how many of the posts I've read over the past 11 months on this list that have made me goggle and wonder what books these strange people are reading. The message I referred to above contains a list of off-the-top-of-Eb's-head places in canon. Every time I cycle through all the books, the less I'm convinced that we know what's going on in the romance department. >However, I am more of an R/H shipper because JKR seems to be taking it >that way, not because I think they should be together (although JKR >convinces me that they should, at least, give it a shot). I know that >I am definitely NOT an H/H shipper; the thought of Hermione and Harry >dating makes me weirdly uncomfortable. To tell you the truth, the thought of any of them dating seriously during canon makes me wince a little. :-) It's not really a matter of right or wrong, I believe. It's just a matter of preference. Personally, I think R/H would be comitragic... but I'm sure JKR will write it up OBHWF beautifully, tie it up with a bow, and all the much-maligned H/H shippers will be converted to the truth... then we can sink the SS H/H and come party with the folks on the Good Ship R/H. How's that sound? Okay, okay. I'm trying too hard. >My cabin on the good ship R/H still has plenty of extra space >but I stand alone proudly (like Hermione with S.P.E.W.) on the deck of >the good ship H/G, gazing sadly into the distance! Come to think of it, I have absolutely no opinion on Harry/Ginny. I like it about as much as I do Harry/Cho these days. --Ebony (who actually did something S.P.E.W.-like in high school, and got the standard GoF reaction from her peers at first) <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< Ebony AKA AngieJ ebonyink at hotmail.com Come join us in Paradise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise Visit Schnoogle.com: http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ebonyink at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 23:40:42 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:40:42 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Race/ethnicity nitpicks (was Re: Trolls, OWLs, and such) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21127 >David, still waiting for Ms E. E. Thomas to bring the unique insights >of her Welsh heritage... > Was this really necessary, David? --Ebony <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< Ebony AKA AngieJ ebonyink at hotmail.com Come join us in Paradise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise Visit Schnoogle.com: http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aiz24 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 23:45:59 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:45:59 -0000 Subject: Dean again - Bill's living - JKR's activities Message-ID: <9gm3rn+44u4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21128 ProfessorPhlash has opened the can of worms yet wider (and you did give a link, Professor--you're cleverer than you know). Dean Thomas is not mentioned in the Philosopher's Stone version of "The Sorting Hat" at all (it would be p. 91 of the paperback, those of you too tired to link over to hpgalleries). By the time Harry tunes back in after being Sorted himself, "And now there were only three people left to be sorted. [NB: This sentence exists in the US version, but it's a Flint, because the book then goes on to name Thomas, Turpin, Weasley, and Zabini.] 'Turpin, Lisa' became a Ravenclaw and then it was Ron's turn. He was pale green by now . . ." etc. This doesn't mean Dean isn't there; Harry just isn't watching or listening, just as he isn't for the R's and S's who are probably in there somewhere; he's getting his hand shaken by Percy, his arm patted by Nick, etc. But we're still ISO Dean's race in the UK edition (and his extreme height, for that matter--the US says he's "even taller than Ron," a descriptor that I don't believe shows up anywhere else in the books). Other references, anyone? Lisa wrote: >And what the heck is a "charm-breaker" at Gringotts? Maybe he raids Egyptian tombs like Indiana Jones. Great posts, Lisa! I think the Indiana Jones stuff is pretty much what Bill does, yes (minus the smashing every ancient artifact he comes across, I hope). The UK PA (ch. 1) refers to him as a "curse-breaker," which is distinctly "cool," IMHO. Maybe that's what Harry will do with his DADA talent, once he's done defeating Voldemort of course. I picture treasure all over the world protected by curses that only skilled witches and wizards know how to lift; Muggles who ignore them, or try to counteract them, end up with multiple heads (same chapter, a favorite image of mine). Anyway, as to pay, it may pay very well. It would be nice to think that Bill can help the family out by sending some of his pay home to Mom. CMC wrote: >I worry that at this very moment she's not writing "Phoenix" but is >instead firing off another memo to Warners' about a flaw in the >script or inadequate lighting in the first Great Hall scene. Me too, me too . . . She says her favorite things to do in the world are (a) spend time with her daughter and (b) write. Now she has a beau, we may fairly add (c) spending time with =him=; okay, it can even rank above writing if it must, but I hope and pray that fiddling with the interior workings of Hollywood remains a distant fourth and she finishes this book before I go insane. One could argue that my worry about this kind of thing, as well as my worry that she's holed up in her study killing characters I like, are in fact signs the damage is already done, but never mind. Amy Z ------------------------------------------------ "I've told you before, Ron, keep your nose out if you like it the shape it is. Can't see why you would, but--" -HP and the Goblet of Fire ------------------------------------------------ From sprsun at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 00:46:09 2001 From: sprsun at yahoo.com (Cai Hui) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:46:09 +0800 Subject: Lucius & other villains References: <992873131.4137.19917.l9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <008d01c0f859$3e766c20$8d44873d@cagsdic> No: HPFGUIDX 21129 Susanna wrote: > In one of the zillions of mails that came in during the weekend, > somebody stated Lucius Malfoy was simply too evil and would therefore > become boring if he didn't change. > That might be a good point, but just think of Jago who is one of the > most evil villains in literature and certainly not boring (and > wouldn't have been so in the 5th Othello sequel). I don't see many > ways of his going over to our side, though. BUT: What do you think of > this one: Lucius gets into some personal conflict with Voldemort in > book5, V. Avada Kedavras him out and this is Draco's motive to > finally change sides? Slightly OT here. But Iago isn't just an inhuman embodiment of Evil. There're many interesting aspects of his character and if you want, you can interpret his reasons for doing the things he does. He is an experienced soldier from a lower class and the Moor passed over him to a clearly less competent Cassio; And then there's the possibility that he's attracted to Othello and feels neglected. What do we have from the canon that reveals Lucius' inner motivations to us? Right now he just looks like one of those rich and evil aristocrat to me. I'd like to know why he hates mud-blood so much and why he chooses to follow Voldemort who is a half-bred. He seems to me a fine tactician, good at manipulaton and comfortable in a position to order other people around. How does he feel having to follow someone who is more powerful than him? I'd like to see more of his character and it'd be such a let-down for me if he's easily killed off in Book 5. Hui _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jun 19 02:12:30 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 02:12:30 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Of Love and War (More) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gmcee+upke@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21130 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" wrote: Personally, I think R/H would be comitragic... but I'm sure > JKR will write it up OBHWF beautifully, tie it up with a bow, and all the > much-maligned H/H shippers will be converted to the truth... then we can > sink the SS H/H and come party with the folks on the Good Ship R/H. How's > that sound? Come aboard, anyway! Hey, a party is a party, right? Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, Hedwig/Pigwidgeon... summer is here, school is almost over for me, my students did well on their state exams, and OoP is nowhere in sight. I need something to take my mind off the torture that waiting brings. I'll bring the keg - anyone care to join me? -jenny from ravenclaw************************************ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 02:45:31 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dean-black In-Reply-To: <9glfuh+2109@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010619024531.69644.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21131 --- Amy Z wrote: > David wrote: > > >Dean. This is interesting. I'm pretty sure he's > not described as > Black in the UK editions, but he is in the US. > > Oh, wow. This sent me poring over the books, > wondering where on earth > she says he's black. Someone else with either > edition, please help! > >From the US Hardback Edition {Chapter 7 page 122 {And now there were only three people left to be {sorted. "Thomas, Dean," a Black boy even taller than {Ron, joined Harry at the Gryffindor table. Hope that helps. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 03:03:03 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <3B2BBA3E.7BDAC43@texas.net> Message-ID: <20010619030303.73110.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21132 --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Haggridd wrote: > > > It actually means "Never tickle a sleeping > dragon", and it is only > > found on the front endpapers of each book, not in > the text. > > AND only in the British editions, I believe, since I > was unaware until I > got a "Philosopher's Stone" version that it had > appeared in the books at > all. I thought it was movie-art like all the rest. > > --Amanda I would be inclined to agree here as I've had both the hard and the soft copies of US edition SS and never saw anything like what you are describing. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 19 03:33:01 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 03:33:01 -0000 Subject: Dean-black In-Reply-To: <20010619024531.69644.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gmh5d+qm55@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21133 Amy wrote: "Dean Thomas is not mentioned in the Philosopher's Stone version of "The Sorting Hat" at all (it would be p. 91 of the paperback, those of you too tired to link over to hpgalleries). By the time Harry tunes back in after being Sorted himself, "And now there were only three people left to be sorted. [NB: This sentence exists in the US version, but it's a Flint, because the book then goes on to name Thomas, Turpin, Weasley, and Zabini.] 'Turpin, Lisa' became a Ravenclaw and then it was Ron's turn. He was pale green by now . . ." etc. " --Perhaps it is just me but now I'm *really* confused. On page *134* of the british paperback version of PS- "And now there were only three people left to be sorted. 'Turpin, Lisa' became a Ravenclaw and then it was Ron's turn. He was pale green by now. Harry crossed his fingers under the table and a second later the hat had shourted, 'GRYFFINDOR!'" On page 122 of the american hardback version of SS- "And now there were only three people left to be sorted. "Thomas, Dean," a Black boy even taller than Ron, joined Harry at the Gryffindor table. "Turpin, Lisa," became a Ravenclawand then it was Ron's turn. He was pale green by now. Harry crossed his fingers under the table and a second later the hat shouted, "GRYFFINDOR!"" Maybe this is what you were trying to say, and I think it is, but I'm just a little confused. So to clear up the confusion which was most likely only on my part, Dean Thomas isn't sorted *at all* in the british editions. Scott From editor at texas.net Tue Jun 19 03:36:11 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:36:11 -0500 Subject: Heraldry Class/Bad Amy! was Another motto question References: <9glggh+5133@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B2EC8AA.259C299F@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21134 Amy Z wrote: > Now I have a motto question. Who drew the crest? JKR herself? The > book covers don't say. Amy, for shame. You have sat through Amanda Binns' Lectures on Heraldry. Fifty points from your house. (1) This is not a motto question, it asks nothing about the motto. (2) :::more attentive students chorus:::"Nor is it a CREST. It is a coat of arms." No really interesting heraldic threads have come up in a bit, and I had a really, really stressful day, so I did a little therapeutic escapism. Rather than cast the "Archivus Referendum" spell at you all, I dug through and found some highlights. Sooo, you new folks interested in a dry, dusty discourse or two on Hogwarts heraldry, please refer to the following. Message numbers are listed, followed by a brief summary often noted for piquancy or superb choice of words. 6929 -- a forwarded comment from my heraldry group, discussing the movie heraldry a bit 7078 -- Catlady inserting her opinion on the forwarded commentary 7192 -- my discussion of the arms of the four Houses, non-movie 7528 -- Christian's discussion of hatchings and how those illustrated on Hogwarts arms are not correct 11399 -- heidi tandy asking a question incorrectly using the term "crest" destined to ignite my never-too-low-burning fires of desire to educate the world about heraldry 11458 -- Amanda's huge, long, grandmother of all heraldry posts "Clarification of Hogwarts Heraldry." Not to be missed by the nitpicky or the insomniac. 13539 -- prince_galrion's discussion of the House arms, interestingly using the terminology correctly, containing much wailing and gnashing of teeth 13799 -- my lengthy, long, very verbose response to the wailing and gnashing of teeth (did I mention it's kind of long?) 13809 -- pengolodh's response (I think he's also prince_galrion? sounds like it) 13831 -- My venerable opinions on why Ravenclaw bears an eagle and not a raven (at least in the books) 13839 -- yet another commentary on the minutiae of the book versions of the House arms, on the thread begun by the wailing and gnashing 13844 -- response by me to Amy Z, speculating on why Gryffindor bears a lion and not a griffin 13852 -- Wildly OT discussion of the genders of griffins. Really. 13866 -- Discussion by Kelley on why each House's symbol is what it is, edging into the "four elements" speculation 14028 -- Many topics touched by Catlady, among them our four elements thing. Have fun. I'm off! to continue my work, pontificating, edifying, and generally shining the light of heraldic knowledge into the narrow, frightening world of mall heraldry kiosks. --Amanda (who, to answer the original question, dimly remembers hearing that yes, JKR drew the Hogwarts arms, but I've honestly no idea where at all. I didn't want to put this tidbit too high in the message, having just fussed at everyone for saying similar unsubstantiated things.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 03:48:09 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 03:48:09 -0000 Subject: Blacks in HP (was: Dean again - Bill's living - JKR's activities) In-Reply-To: <9gm3rn+44u4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gmi1p+esad@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21135 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > ProfessorPhlash has opened the can of worms yet wider (and you did > give a link, Professor--you're cleverer than you know). Dean Thomas > is not mentioned in the Philosopher's Stone version of "The Sorting > Hat" at all (it would be p. 91 of the paperback, those of you too > tired to link over to hpgalleries). By the time Harry tunes back in > after being Sorted himself, > > "And now there were only three people left to be sorted. [NB: This > sentence exists in the US version, but it's a Flint, because the book > then goes on to name Thomas, Turpin, Weasley, and Zabini.] 'Turpin, > Lisa' became a Ravenclaw and then it was Ron's turn. He was pale > green by now . . ." etc. > > This doesn't mean Dean isn't there; Harry just isn't watching or > listening, just as he isn't for the R's and S's who are probably in > there somewhere; he's getting his hand shaken by Percy, his arm patted > by Nick, etc. But we're still ISO Dean's race in the UK edition (and > his extreme height, for that matter--the US says he's "even taller > than Ron," a descriptor that I don't believe shows up anywhere else in > the books). Other references, anyone? I don't recall any references to Dean's race. The only persons described as black are both friends of the twins: Lee Jordan, and Angelina, who went to the Yule Ball with Gred--or was it Forge? I hope I haven't restated the obvious. Haggridd From editor at texas.net Tue Jun 19 03:53:32 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:53:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Photos, new members, Sirius/Lupin. Scar References: <9gk1eg+un9c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B2ECCBB.9A79D26@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21136 purplefanta at yahoo.com wrote: > 1) Here is my question... if a magical person (witch, wizard, etc.) > take a picture of a muggle and a non muggle, will they both move in > the photo? Will neither move? Can a muggle see the people moving in > the photos? The motion of the subjects is due to the potion in which the film is developed. Colin tells Harry that a classmate told him (Colin) that if he developed the film in the right potion, the pictures would move. (CoS, but no page, sorry, it's on loan). So I imagine anything animate would move, muggles and wizards alike (wonder if animals would?). And sure, I think a muggle can see the motion. Why wouldn't they? I dimly remember a post sometime back where we built on the developer potion, and speculated that the paintings move because the paint contains a similar potion or ingredient. I bet the developer potion was developed based on the recipe for the paint, whatcha think? > 2) Ok, I have a small bone to pick, and I know that I am going to get > reamed for saying this. BUT, as the membership increases, there are > many who ask questions that have been talked about previously. As a > new member, I am sure i have done the same. But IMHO, with all the > new people, I am sure that there are lots of new ideas on old topics. > i don't think it is possible to exist as a discussion group > and not bring up topics time and time again. When I have a question, > I want to know what this group thinks now... not what they decided a > few months ago. Perhaps, I have no right to make this request, but > please don't yell "check the archives" everytime us newbies have > question... it makes me long for a Cheering Charm... How about if we think of really, really endearing ways to yell "check the archives"? On my part, as an oldie, I always remember saying something Just Perfectly, and I always want to say it just as well again, and I never feel like I do, and I also rarely have time to go find the message numbers. I promise I'll try not to refer people to the archives without message numbers or some idea of what to search on, is that better? We were all newbies, I know how you feel, in my first post I declared my wonderful original thought that Snape might have been in love with Lily. > 3) I agree that Sirius made a mistake when he was 16, but I don't > think he honestly still thinks he was justified in making that > decision. When he made the comment at the end of PoA, Snape had just > nearly given him to the dementors AND caused the loss of Wormtail to > V. Snape never saw Wormtail, much less actively caused his escape. Wormtail's escape, if you must lay blame, is more accurately Lupin's fault, for failing to take his potion. *ahem* Please refer to message #15233, "What Snape Knew and When" by yours truly, the anal wonder. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From purplefanta at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 04:31:58 2001 From: purplefanta at yahoo.com (purplefanta at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 04:31:58 -0000 Subject: Photos, new members, Sirius/Lupin. Scar In-Reply-To: <9gkm5e+jci9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gmkju+e0l1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21137 Warning:: This message appears to be a rant. But i am not really all that emotional... just discouraged MMMfanfic at h... wrote: > This is a very, very common misconception -- Snape had absolutely > nothing to do with the escape of Wormtail. Wormtail escaped when > Lupin transformed into a werewolf because he hadn't taken the > potion. It was an absolute accident. This is where I disagree. IMHO, Snape's inability to listen to reason caused himself to have to be "eliminated" by way of being knocked out. True, he did not directly cause Wormtail to escape, but I hold him responsible for his escape. Having another experienced wizard on hand on that walk back to the castle would have IMHO saved the day. Then there is the fact that Snape knew Lupin hadn't taken hs potion that night. Having Snape alert and part of the "team" would have been a great help. However, because he refused to listen to Black's side of the story, he was actually working against them. There was only two sides that night... the good and the bad. Snape made the wrong choice. As for my request to please stop yelling at us newbies to check the archives...? Sounds to me like I better start reading unless I want to get my head bit off... number 826 here I come... Melissa From JenniferABacker at cs.com Tue Jun 19 05:08:12 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 01:08:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dean-black Message-ID: <125.7e049d.2860383c@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21138 Ok does anyone know what Dean will look like in the movie? From what I heard, the people who publish the book in Britian didn't want Dean to black. If that's right what will they do in the movie? Just curious to see if there's been a picture of him. j*B From catlady at wicca.net Tue Jun 19 05:10:40 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:10:40 -0700 Subject: Weasley Poverty - Ron - Heraldry - Message-ID: <3B2EDED0.9A073BCB@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21139 Lisa Inman wrote: > Each member of the Burrow seems to have their > particular way of dealing with the infamous > Weasley poverty, While I believe that the Weasleys were never wealthy (The Burrow is described as "It looked as though it had once been a large stone pigpen, but extra rooms had been added here and there until it was several stories high"), I suspect that they aren't as poor as all that. They not only have a large (albeit ramshackle) house and never seem to go hungry, but they managed to scrape up Comet 260 broomsticks for the twins and enough textbooks for all those kids. I'm thinking that the problem is trying to spread the available money over So Many kids. Bill and Charlie could have had school stuff bought new for them and the usual amount of pocket money when they went to Hogwarts, as there were no smaller mouths to compete with them at the time they started school. And Ron and Ginny could have their allowances increased after Fred and George finish school and the parents are back down to supporting only two kids. *counts on fingers* that would be books 6 and 7, when they will have other things to worry about. Lisa Inman wrote about Ron: > His brothers before him have all run the spectrum > of How To Carry Proudly the Weasley Name, and he's > going to have a *very* difficult time trying to > find his own niche without being either a > cookie-cutter or a loser. I think the older brothers have left part of the spectrum unclaimed: I don't recall any canonical evidence that any of them are musical, play an instrument, sing, draw pictures, act in theatre. I keep hollering at Ron (but he never listens) that he should learn to play guitar (or at least harmonica): it was my childhood observation that kids who play portable live music get a lot of favorable attention from other kids, who like to listen or sing along. And someone on list (I think it was Steve Vander Ark) mentioned playing guitar as having been a good way to attract girls. (I took guitar lessons, altho' I wasn't trying to attract girls, but I am tone-deaf and it was hopeless.) Sketching in a realist style can also be popular with the other kids: accurate and/or humorous caricatures of fellow students and teachers are like magic to us Muggles, and no doubt MORE amazing than magic to the wizard folk. Or if style at chess comes from the same abilities as skill at poker (or bridge), he could take up playing poker (or bridge) for money and gain some fame/respect among his schoolmates as well as enough money for some new clothes. MAYBE even a decent broomstick. A summer job wouldn't do much for the fame, but would help with the finances.. > He shares Charlie's love of Quidditch, but like > Charlie doesn't regard it as a career option, > and it's not mentioned that he's even tried out > for a spot on the Gryffindor team. I believe Ron would have tried out for the team if there had been try-outs. I believe there haven't been any try-outs yet. In Book 1, the team already had all positions except Seeker filled with returning players and one Chaser up from the reserves, but I gather that she had been chosen end of previous year. Then Harry was given the Seeker position without try-outs. It seems to me that the team members made a decision (or Wood decided and the rest went along with him) that they 1) would not have reserves, 2) would keep the same first-string players as long as those players were at school. The first of our familiar team to finish school was Wood, at the end of Book 3. Finally, a vacancy on the team: I thought there would be try-outs for the Keeper position in Book 4, but there wasn't any House Quidditch in Book 4. I want them to have House Quidditch in Book 5 (altho' VWII may interfere) and I can't decide which I would prefer: 1) Ron gets the Keeper position and is really good, better than Wood, and is recruited by pro teams, or 2) Ron is beaten out for the Keeper position, by sports-loving but Muggle-born Dean Thomas, or by a girl, or by some little second-year baby -- the emotion stress of Yet Again not getting what he wants, especially losing it to someone he would probably consider (albeit unconsciously) to be less worthy of it, might be maximised if the person who beat him out was not merely a girl, but his very own beloved baby sister Ginny. Professor Amanda Binns wrote: > I'm off! to continue my work, pontificating, > edifying, and generally shining the light of > heraldic knowledge into the narrow, frightening > world of mall heraldry kiosks. What?! I can't imagine that you would do the Carry Nation thing (smash them up with an axe)... -- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 06:07:34 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Of Love and War (More) In-Reply-To: <9gmcee+upke@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010619060734.13596.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21140 --- meboriqua at aol.com wrote: > Come aboard, anyway! Hey, a party is a party, > right? Harry/Hermione, > Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, Hedwig/Pigwidgeon... > summer is here, school > is almost over for me, my students did well on their > state exams, and > OoP is nowhere in sight. I need something to take > my mind off the > torture that waiting brings. I'll bring the keg - > anyone care to join > me? > > -jenny from > ravenclaw************************************ > > Hedwig/Pigwidgeon?? Okay sure why not?? I'll bring the appetizers. :D I'm going into Harry Potter withdrawls waiting for OoTP. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 06:32:12 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heraldry Class/Bad Amy! was Another motto question In-Reply-To: <3B2EC8AA.259C299F@texas.net> Message-ID: <20010619063212.45210.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21141 --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Amy, for shame. You have sat through Amanda Binns' > Lectures on Heraldry. > Fifty points from your house. (1) This is not a > motto question, it asks > nothing about the motto. (2) :::more attentive > students chorus:::"Nor is > it a CREST. It is a coat of arms." > > > > Have fun. I'm off! to continue my work, > pontificating, edifying, and > generally shining the light of heraldic knowledge > into the narrow, > frightening world of mall heraldry kiosks. > > --Amanda (who, to answer the original question, > dimly remembers hearing > that yes, JKR drew the Hogwarts arms, but I've > honestly no idea where at > all. I didn't want to put this tidbit too high in > the message, having > just fussed at everyone for saying similar > unsubstantiated things.) Are we a frustrated Herald Amanda? Actually I have a tincture question. (I haven't seen this coat of arms yet but will be getting Brit editions soon). Are the coats color pictures? If not what's the blazon? Thanks. Danette (Who's mother would kill her if she didn't know the proper terminology) ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Jun 19 06:56:09 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 06:56:09 -0000 Subject: a word in favour of Sirius & more twins??? Message-ID: <9gmt29+qeom@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21142 Melissa wrote "3) I agree that Sirius made a mistake when he was 16, but I don't think he honestly still thinks he was justified in making that decision." And someone else wrote that this wasn't just a boy's joke, because Snape could have been killed by Lupin/werewolf. Sp far, so good, but, as we know from Sirius himself, Snape was very advanced in magic when he came to Hogwarts ("...when he came to Hogwarts, he knew more curses than most of us in their seventh year.."). So, I'm convinced that, in his 5th vear, he would surely have been able to defend himself against a werewolf- after all, when he replaces Lupin for that famous DADA-lesson, he wonders that third- years are not even able to recognize a werewolf (certainly also an exageration, because he wants to criticize Remus before his class, but anyway...) My conclusion is that james Potter did a favour to Remus rather than to old Sevvie, preventing him from enterin the Shrieking Shack, because IMO he thought that remus, not Severus might have been killed. I promise to everybody to read up in the archives when I have my next brilliant idea, but I simply have to tell you this one, whether it has already been said or not: As JKR is so careful about chosing names, might "Remus Lupin" not have a double meaning, or rather, might it not be a clue to more than just his being a werewolf (lupus- Lupin)? In other words: Where there is a Remus, there could be a Romulus, more so because those twins had been raised by a WOLF? I sincerely hope not to be OT, but might there be coming up some problem with a Remus-twin we haven't yet heard of? OK, I know this is all mad, but tonight I dreamed my umbrella was a portkey. Susanna From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 19 07:31:25 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:31:25 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dean-black In-Reply-To: <9gmh5d+qm55@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0f891$d8a34920$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 21143 >Maybe this is what you were trying to say, and I think it is, but I'm just a little confused. So to clear up the confusion which was most >likely only on my part, Dean Thomas isn't sorted *at all* in the british editions. You mean, he is sorted but we don't get to hear about it. All we actually know about his background in the British editions is that he supports West Ham, and therefore probably is an incurable optimist who comes from the East End of London/Essex. Susan From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 19 08:25:17 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:25:17 -0000 Subject: Movie money In-Reply-To: <9glvcj+1eas@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gn29d+vnjm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21144 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > That's what I thought at first too. But then one of my British > friends pointed out that the coin Ron was referring to in that > passage is in fact hexagonal (or is is septagonal?) and that > indicates that Wizard money is almost certainly round. > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon > http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon Steve, it's septagonal. So is the smaller 20p. It seems very un-British, doesn't it? More like the old (ie Communist era) Albanian 3 Lek note. regards David From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 19 09:13:18 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:13:18 -0000 Subject: Quidditch trials, oops! In-Reply-To: <3B2EDED0.9A073BCB@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9gn53e+b7ue@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21145 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston wrote: > > I believe Ron would have tried out for the team if there had been > try-outs. I believe there haven't been any try-outs yet. So it certainly seems. But there *ought* to have been try-outs. IIRC, Dumbledore mentions them in his notices at the start of term feast. BTW, my apologies for my previous post - it was intended for Steve alone; I'm sure you didn't all want to know about Voldeort's adventures with Muggle Money. David From jwh at comp.leeds.ac.uk Tue Jun 19 09:52:15 2001 From: jwh at comp.leeds.ac.uk (James Handley) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:52:15 +0100 Subject: New Places In-Reply-To: <992907965.2894.56502.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21146 Hello all, I'm new to this group - my name is James, and I'm a PhD student at Leeds University in England (should be researching right now!!). I've been lurking for a couple of weeks, but decided to show my face! I resisted HP until last Christmas, when curiosity finally overcame me, and I read PS.. of course I was hooked at once, and have avidly read the other 3 (halfway through second reading of GoF). I've been pondering something JKR said in her latest (?) Newsround interview, where she says something along the lines of the characters will be going to some new places, but that people will probably be able to guess where... I had a quick search through the archive, and haven't found any guesses, so I thought I'd post my thoughts. The places that have been particularly mentioned, but not yet visited are: The Ministry of Magic Azkaban Godric's Hollow Beauxbatons Drumstrang + any others? The MoM could be interesting - perhaps Harry is called up for trial (!!), and thereon to Azkaban (perhaps Lupin, Black, Dumbledore, and even Snape have to mount a rescue bid?) Godric's Hollow is the most obvious and interesting choice IMO. Perhaps Harry could find a diary belonging to his parents, or letters, or some other personal possesion in the remains (?) of the house. Open up a bit more of his past, or something. In any case it would certainly be very poignant for Harry. As an aside - do you think Harry was ever tempted to use the Time-turner to go back 13 (or however many) years to see what happened. Is it possible that he did, and it was Harry's intervention which ended up saving him, but then he had to adopt a different identity because he'd broken wizard law - so Harry is simultaneously HP and another character in the book? Um - better stop there, I think. :) (or perhaps he was/is killed saving himself - he goes back in time after killing V because he /has/ to know what really happened) The two schools - well there's potential for both - obviously H and Krum, but maybe Fleur's parents will ask Harry to stay out of gratitude for saving Fleur's sister? Just some thoughts for a Tueday morning. James From mark_weasley at hotmail.com Tue Jun 19 09:55:17 2001 From: mark_weasley at hotmail.com (mark_weasley at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:55:17 -0000 Subject: Dean-black In-Reply-To: <125.7e049d.2860383c@cs.com> Message-ID: <9gn7i5+5dmo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21147 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JenniferABacker at c... wrote: > Ok does anyone know what Dean will look like in the movie? From what I heard, > the people who publish the book in Britian didn't want Dean to black. If > that's right what will they do in the movie? Just curious to see if there's > been a picture of him. j*B Hi. Yes, there have been pics of the actor playing Dean Thomas. His name is Alfred "Alfie" Lewis Enoch; he's the son of English actor William Russell and a Brazilian doctor. You can see his pics at the HP Galleries at www.hpgalleries.com. (I think you can also catch a glimpse of Dean in the movie trailer.) By the way: HP Galleries, in my opinion, is the BEST Harry Potter site for news and features. You can also find there most (if not all) transcripts of interviews/chats with JKR, pictures of the movie cast (including Ginny, Percy, Oliver, Seamus, Neville, Flint, etc. and unconfirmed pics of Angelina, Alicia, Katie, even Pansy), book and magazine cover galleries of HP from all over the world, and loads of other neat features! Really a great resource for HP fans (next to the Lexicon, of course). Anyway, here's the caption that goes with Alfie Enoch's photo: "Son of an Afro-Brazilian doctor from Rio de Janeiro who's married to an English "white-like-milk" actor, Alfie, (as he's called), was born in London and studies in an English school - though he's already spending lots of time in Salvador. He only has two places in the movie where he speaks but appears with Harry and his gang throughout much of the movie." --Mark From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Jun 19 11:12:55 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:12:55 +1000 Subject: Lupin, coins, Cho, Ginny and Lily: livered or white? Message-ID: <003001c0f8b1$2fbeb0e0$1a90aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 21148 David: > (see how he cunningly avoids the lengthy hunt for chapter and verse) Which raises the main reason why people don't proclaim their sources on JKR chats: what a major hassle! I've seen probably 15+ chats with JKR on the web, some of which took considerable effort to track down, some of which were actual videos. some transcripts, etc.etc., and it would take me days of rereading and research to figure out exactly which one was the one where she made the comment I was quoting. Let's be realistic. While I can understand that people are suspicious without clearly footnoted sources, I can't help wondering if the immediate effect of insisting on citing actual verified sources is to close down the option of quoting JKR to all but those who have photographic memories and/or bookmarked links to every chat they've read (or are you all this devoted except me?). Then again, it's possible that one of our trusty members knows the links to all the existing chats, which would be a handy thing to post if draconian citation laws were enforced... Milz: > Personally, I found the Fleur character very irritating and the more I re-read GOF, the more irritating the character becomes. Hear, hear, found her irritating myself, and I've only read it twice and don't own a copy yet. This is one case where I think a little deliberate affirmation action would have been a good idea. Given the comparative irrelevance of the performances of Krum and Fleur in the tournament and the 3:1 gender ratio, I really wish JKR had let her perform a bit better. Steve: > the coin Ron was referring to in that passage is in fact hexagonal Hey, in Australia the 50 cent piece is decagonal! Must be something we imitated from the motherland, so to speak... > Emma, who would mourn dear Remus with an unhealthy intensity Melissa: > Lupin, OTOH, has come across completely as a warm, fun, and couragous man. Ahh, Lupin. Remarkably mild, calm, and level headed, a fine contrast to Sirius the hothead. Hui: (re Cho Chang / Zhang Qiu) > Pinyin looks weird to western people. Yes, I must say when I first started studying Mandarin and learnt pinyin, my thought was "what *were* they thinking? C is pronounced TS and Q as CH??" Then, a few years later, a mainland Chinese friend of mine pointed out that they were, in fact, thinking of their Russian allies. Apparently a lot of the apparently bizarre aspects of pinyin reflect Russian pronunciation rather than English pronunciation. Jenny: > Hermione stands head and shoulders above Ginny in many ways Too right (declares Tabouli, who to no-one's surprise got Hermione top of the list when she did the quiz, followed by Harry and then Voldemort (?!)). Ginny's just a bit Nice for me: so noble, so trustworthy, so earnest, so sweet, so sensitive, so loyal... gah, give me Hermione and her interesting character flaws and temper any day. As for G/H, in my view the girl needs a serious injection of oomph and vim and zing before she could come close to handling the stress of a relationship with Harry (the boy who almost dies regularly). Now for some untrammelled speculation on my part... the mysterious Lily. Some of you complained that we know very little about Lily: where are her girl friends? etc. Well it just occurred to me that we don't, to the best of my knowledge (though after my whinge above someone will no doubt trump me with some obscure chat reference!), know for sure that she was in Gryffindor. Perhaps the reason why we haven't heard about her from Lupin and Sirius is that she was in another house. ***Could she have been in Slytherin??*** As an investor in the failed Snape/Lily ship building project, I find this possibility intriguing. Perhaps all her friends went off to be Death Eaters, and she was rejected for being Muggle-born, sparking Snape's first doubts about the dark side. Perhaps she didn't meet James Potter until they were sharing happy Head Girl and Head Boy cosy chats in Dumbledore's office, or played against him in Quidditch, to foreshadow a family tendency to fall for opposing team members. Perhaps, in this vein, Harry will end up not with Ginny or Hermione, but with Pansy...! The good ship P/H, anyone? (evil chuckling) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From simon at hp.inbox.as Tue Jun 19 12:42:14 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:42:14 +0100 Subject: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21149 Hello all, The chapter summary for this week is going to be fairly brief, but do not worry as the Quidditch summary is hot on its heels and hopefully is fairly comprehensive. Scene 1: Ron and Harry find out that Buckbeak is up for the chop. Hermione breaks down and hugs Ron. Scene 2: Malfoy insults Hagrid, Hermione slaps him and then she misses a lesson. Hermione gets upset in Divination and storms out. Scene 3: Easter Holidays - not very relaxing. Scene 4: Night before the match. Scene 5: Harry has a dream about Quidditch and Dragons. Then he sees Crookshanks with the 'Grim'. Scene 6: The game. Lots of foul play by the Slytherins and then Harry pulls of a spectacular move to win the game. Questions and discussion points: 1) Hermione hugs Ron. Love interest or a friend apologising? (Especially relevant as we seem to be having a shipper conference at the moment ? I think calling it a war would be going too far) 2) Hermione stands up to Malfoy over his comments about Hagrid. A foreshadowing of the SPEW events in GoF? An indicator of why she is in Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw? 3) Has Hermione got the right idea about Divination? Or is it actually useful for something? If so what and who will be the one to show its uses? 4) Harry has a dream about being chased by a dragon. In GoF Harry flies a broom around a dragon. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. 5) Ron predicts that he will get an owl since Scabbers is no longer around. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. Discussion of the match itself will be added into the Quidditch discussion. Simon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com Tue Jun 19 13:01:55 2001 From: hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com (Sara Metz) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:01:55 -0500 Subject: Snape as DADA Teacher Message-ID: <20010619.080156.-349037.0.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21150 I'm not sure whether this has ever been brought up before (and if it has, forgive me), but could it possibly be that Snape wants to be the DADA professor because it would prove that Dumbledore trusted him? After all, we know about Snape's checkered past, and perhaps he feels that as long as Dumbledore gives the job to someone else, it proves that Dumbledore doesn't trust Snape enough to entrust what has become (or will become) a very vital class to Hogwarts students. On the other side of the coin, could Dumbledore just be thinking that Snape is too good a potions teacher to waste? Even though he treats Harry and the rest of the Gryffindors rather meanly, he is known to be rather a whiz at making potions. Well, any thoughts? Sara Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus Proud of my **120%** Harry Potter Obsession Rating (Thank you, fanfiction!) ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From ebonyink at hotmail.com Tue Jun 19 13:16:39 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:16:39 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21151 :::dances::: I get to go first... first... first... >Questions and discussion points: >1) Hermione hugs Ron. Love interest or a friend apologising? (Especially >relevant as we seem to be having a shipper conference at the moment I >think calling it a war would be going too far) Foreshadowing of a future passionate love affair, of course. (Thinking that if JKR ever read a summary of the HP4GU archives, she wouldn't faint from shock (she doesn't seem like that type), she'd most likely die laughing.) >2) Hermione stands up to Malfoy over his comments about Hagrid. A >foreshadowing of the SPEW events in GoF? An indicator of why she is in >Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw? Yes. Hermione's social activism is one of her key characteristics. It'd be very interesting to see if there are the equivalent of British political parties affiliated with the MoM--Hermione's the classic bleeding-heart liberal, I think. >3) Has Hermione got the right idea about Divination? Or is it actually >useful for something? If so what and who will be the one to show its uses? Well, we had that great fate vs. free will discussion a month or so ago (waves at Amy Z). Personally, I don't think that the Divination courses are just there for laughs... >4) Harry has a dream about being chased by a dragon. In GoF Harry flies a >broom around a dragon. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. If Harry is a Seer, you'll have mass book burnings by fans who think Harry Gets Enough Attention And Has Enough Talent As It Is. Even I had a fleeting second like this ("WHY is this kid a Champion?") upon first reading of GoF, but now I think that the Bad Guys are so intent on killing him that he needs all the help he can get. If he wants to survive canon, his bag of tricks had better be full, I'm thinking. >5) Ron predicts that he will get an owl since Scabbers is no longer around. > This means he is a Seer. Discuss. We've had some interesting discussions in the past re: Ron's prescience. Many people like the idea of Ron Being a Seer, for obvious balancing-the-Trio reasons... count me among the Committee for the Granting of Special Psychic Powers to the Guy Sidekick. I know I think that getting clairvoyance would be a much better "consolation prize" for him than just getting Hermione by default. It would also serve several purposes: a very obvious one is that Ron will be less likely to be tricked by the Dark Side if he sees them coming. The more I think about this, the more I like it. --Ebony <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< Ebony AKA AngieJ ebonyink at hotmail.com Come join us in Paradise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise Visit Schnoogle.com: http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Jun 19 13:35:10 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:35:10 -0000 Subject: Movie money In-Reply-To: <9gn29d+vnjm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gnkee+mnqd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21152 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > That's what I thought at first too. But then one of my British > > friends pointed out that the coin Ron was referring to in that > > passage is in fact hexagonal (or is is septagonal?) and that > > indicates that Wizard money is almost certainly round. > > it's septagonal. So is the smaller 20p. It seems very un-British, > doesn't it? More like the old (ie Communist era) Albanian 3 Lek > note. Nitpick: the word is "heptagonal" and the object is a "heptagon". "septem" is Latin, but "heptagon" comes from the Greek (as do all the other geometric figure names ending in "-gon" ("angle"). ....Craig From ebonyink at hotmail.com Tue Jun 19 13:55:16 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:55:16 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blacks in HP (was: Dean again - Bill's living - JKR's activities) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21153 Haggridd wrote: >I don't recall any references to Dean's race. The only persons >described as black are both friends of the twins: Lee Jordan, and >Angelina, who went to the Yule Ball with Gred--or was it Forge? I >hope I haven't restated the obvious. Lee's never mentioned as being black... it just states that he has dreadlocks. Anyone with a certain type of hair can twist it into dreads. So the probability of him being of another ethnicity is there, because I went to school with a Jewish guy who wore dreads. Dean's mentioned as black in the American edition of PS (SS 122). If he's not black in the UK, then the obvious conclusion is that Scholastic did some tampering with the MS for profit's sake. A great selling point for modern kidlit is "multiculturalism"--fellow American teachers, how many inservices/workshops/conferences have you attended on this theme? The United States has a significantly greater "ethnic" population than the United Kingdom does... bet you anything Scholastic would've put a Hispanic character somewhere in Hogwarts if they could have gotten away with it. :-D In a couple of weeks, I'll be in the UK attending summer classes at Corpus Christi. One of my two electives is a comparative US/UK education course... the research paper I plan to do is a comparison/contrast of literate practices between majority/minority children in the schools I'll survey. I wonder if the UK has the same problems educating children who are not "the norm" that our country does. Of course, we know Hogwarts doesn't have that problem. :-) --Ebony <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< Ebony AKA AngieJ ebonyink at hotmail.com Come join us in Paradise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise Visit Schnoogle.com: http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Jun 19 14:01:32 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:01:32 -0000 Subject: Lupin, coins, Cho, Ginny and Lily: livered or white? In-Reply-To: <003001c0f8b1$2fbeb0e0$1a90aecb@price> Message-ID: <9gnlvs+lt9h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21154 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > Hui: (re Cho Chang / Zhang Qiu) > > Pinyin looks weird to western people. > > Yes, I must say when I first started studying Mandarin and learnt > pinyin, my thought was "what *were* they thinking? C is pronounced > TS and Q as CH??" Then, a few years later, a mainland Chinese > friend of mine pointed out that they were, in fact, thinking of > their Russian allies. Apparently a lot of the apparently bizarre > aspects of pinyin reflect Russian pronunciation rather than English > pronunciation. Well, not quite. Your mainland Chinese friend perpetuates a long- standing myth about Pinyin, which is nicely rebuffed here: http://www.angelfire.com/pop2/pkv/myth.html ....Craig From reanna20 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 14:08:33 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010619140833.82755.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21155 --- Simon wrote: > Questions and discussion points: > 1) Hermione hugs Ron. Love interest or a friend apologising? Well as one who has a blind side to romance, I see this as a friends apologizing. I personally would rather not see Ron/Harry/Hermione end up with romantically with each other. But I can see how the signs of friendly affection might be perceived as a possible romance. > 3) Has Hermione got the right idea about Divination? Or is it > actually useful for something? If so what and who will be the one to > show its uses? Nope, she doesn't. Divination is a vastly different kind of magic. It takes more patience and doesn't yield immediate results like the other kinds of magic. Not to say that Hermione doesn't have patience, it's just a different kind of patience. > 4) Harry has a dream about being chased by a dragon. In GoF Harry > flies a broom around a dragon. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. Oh, heavens no! Although, I know that JKR is heading in that direction, what with the dreams that Harry is plagued with. I guess I should just get used to it. Actually, I've got a clarification question. Is a Seer someone who can divinate the future, or one who can see events that are happening currently? It seems that Harry definitely has the second type of Seer talent (the beginning of GoF) but I'm not sure about the first. > 5) Ron predicts that he will get an owl since Scabbers is no longer > around. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. I don't know what to think about this. Part of me screams enough with the Seer stuff. Another part of me likes the idea of Ron being a Seer better than Harry being a Seer. It might balance him out better, make up a bit for his fabulous temper. But my knee jerk reaction to special powers being granted to the trio is to scream "No!". I mean, honestly, what a fabulous coincidence that the people with "special powers" all happen to be best friends. Make *Draco* the Seer instead! Now, that would create some interesting situations! And why can't the "predictions" that Harry and Ron make up on their homework be honestly just make ups? I mean an owl is a fairly common animal, it's not hard to believe that he would eventually get one at some point. Now if Ron "predicted" that he would've gotten an electric purple lizard that can recite the full Shakespearean library, and he actually got one, I would probably grant that it wasn't a coincidence... ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/12/2001 "DON'T THINK OF IT AS DYING, said Death. JUST THINK OF IT AS LEAVING EARLY TO AVOID THE RUSH." - N. Gaiman and T. Prachett, "Good Omens" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 14:27:48 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:27:48 -0000 Subject: Chats &Lily (house) WAS Lupin, coins, Cho... In-Reply-To: <003001c0f8b1$2fbeb0e0$1a90aecb@price> Message-ID: <9gnnh4+68km@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21156 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > Which raises the main reason why people don't proclaim their sources on JKR chats: what a major hassle! I've seen probably 15+ chats with JKR on the web, some of which took considerable effort to track down, some of which were actual videos. some transcripts, etc.etc., Let's be realistic. While I can understand that people are suspicious without clearly footnoted sources, I can't help wondering if the immediate effect of insisting on citing actual verified sources is to close down the option of quoting JKR to all but those who have photographic memories and/or bookmarked links to every chat they've read (or are you all this devoted except me?). I agree with you to an extent. However, there are times when it would help to know where that information came from. Example, where did so many people come up with the idea that Harry has a fan who will die? I have never seen that in any interview. I would just like to be able to see that one for myself. I know I have not tracked down all her interviews and I don't have a photograpic memory ;-) > > Now for some untrammelled speculation on my part... the mysterious Lily. > > Some of you complained that we know very little about Lily: where are her girl friends? etc. Well it just occurred to me that we don't, to the best of my knowledge (though after my whinge above someone will no doubt trump me with some obscure chat reference!), know for sure that she was in Gryffindor. Perhaps the reason why we haven't heard about her from Lupin and Sirius is that she was in another house. ***Could she have been in Slytherin??*** Well......Scholastic, October 16, 2000: Q: Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? A: Her maiden name was Evans and she was in Gryffindor (naturally). > > As an investor in the failed Snape/Lily ship building project I'm one of the few who don't like the idea of Snape/Lily :-0 Koinonia From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Tue Jun 19 14:33:15 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:33:15 -0000 Subject: Lily: livered or white? and New Places In-Reply-To: <003001c0f8b1$2fbeb0e0$1a90aecb@price> Message-ID: <9gnnrb+k9gq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21157 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: Some of you complained that we know very little about Lily: where are her girl friends? etc. Well it just occurred to me that we don't, to the best of my knowledge (though after my whinge above someone will no doubt trump me with some obscure chat reference!), know for sure that she was in Gryffindor. Perhaps the reason why we haven't heard about her from Lupin and Sirius is that she was in another house. ***Could she have been in Slytherin??*** Nice theory, but here I am to trump you with the obscure chat reference: Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally). You can find this at: http://www.hpgalleries.com/c102.htm James Handley: The places that have been particularly mentioned, but not yet visited are: The Ministry of Magic Azkaban Godric's Hollow Beauxbatons Drumstrang + any others? Another new place, besides the ones you mentioned, could be St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries (is that the precise title?) I believe this was brought up before by someone else, but I did think of it immediately after I saw that interview. Because Fudge claims that Harry must be disturbed, maybe he gets sent over there for a checkup? He might learn a bit more about the Longbottoms too. From jwh at comp.leeds.ac.uk Tue Jun 19 14:38:16 2001 From: jwh at comp.leeds.ac.uk (jwh at comp.leeds.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:38:16 -0000 Subject: a word in favour of Sirius & more twins??? In-Reply-To: <9gmt29+qeom@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gno4o+3jpo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21158 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > My conclusion is that james Potter did a favour to Remus rather than > to old Sevvie, preventing him from enterin the Shrieking Shack, > because IMO he thought that remus, not Severus might have been killed. Although everyone (including Snape, it would seem) believes Snape has a wizard's debt to James because of this action (ie James saved Snap's life) - so if Dumbledore, Snape, etc believe /now/ that Snape would have been killed by Lupin, then surely James etc would have believed it then? Just a thought. J. From pennylin at swbell.net Tue Jun 19 15:08:36 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:08:36 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Sources for JKR Interviews, Chats, Etc. Message-ID: <3B2F6AF4.8AEB3EA5@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21159 Hi -- I see there have been some complaints about the request that people cite sources when they say "JKR said ..." or "Such & such is going to happen in Book 5." Let me explain a bit .... The reason that you see some of the older members requesting that these statements be accompanied by a source is that we've seen things misconstrued or misquoted many times over. Here's an example. The quote that JKR made in a recent chat about Ron and Hermione -- several months ago, a shipping war ensued and the quote was bandied about by the R/H crowd quite a bit. We had acrimonious debates about the meaning of the word "between" because someone early on had attributed JKR as saying "there's something going on between them, Ron just doesn't know it yet." Turns out that the word "between" (the word that caused all the controversy & arguments amongst the shippers) was never used by JKR. There was considerably more ambiguity in JKR's words when someone else actually looked up the quote itself from the transcript. The above is but one recent example. So, many of us are in fact very skeptical about believing "JKR said ..." statements without viewing the actual transcript. One way that people can find a source is to search the chats that are linked on the HP Lexicon site. Steve & Doreen have collected links to a large number of JKR chat transcripts & interviews. I've done that before when I wanted to be sure about the wording. You can't globally search (a drawback admittedly), but you can search keywords in each individual chat transcript file. In closing, this is not an official policy or draconian rule. It's simply a request. But, don't be surprised if you are asked for the source if you don't provide it upfront. That's all. Hope that clarifies things -- Penny From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jun 19 15:06:27 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:06:27 -0000 Subject: Heraldry Class/Bad Amy! was Another motto question In-Reply-To: <20010619063212.45210.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gnppj+7ppc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21160 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Danette Schardt-Cordova > Are we a frustrated Herald Amanda? Actually I have a > tincture question. (I haven't seen this coat of arms > yet but will be getting Brit editions soon). Are the > coats color pictures? If not what's the blazon? > Thanks. > > Danette > (Who's mother would kill her if she didn't know the > proper terminology) Read this web site, and your mother (or Amanda) won't have to kill you. http://www.baronage.co.uk/1999/contjag1.html There's a color code for black and white drawings so you can figure out what the color is supposed to be. IIRC there was some discussions earlier this year about how the WB renderings weren't accurate or something to that affect. Milz From linman6868 at aol.com Tue Jun 19 15:14:30 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:14:30 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gnq8m+df4d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21161 Ebony wrote: > >Questions and discussion points: > >1) Hermione hugs Ron. Love interest or a friend apologising? (Especially > >relevant as we seem to be having a shipper conference at the moment ? I > >think calling it a war would be going too far) > > Foreshadowing of a future passionate love affair, of course. > (Thinking that if JKR ever read a summary of the HP4GU archives, > she wouldn't faint from shock (she doesn't seem like that type), she'd most > likely die laughing.) *snerk* That was funny. Well, in for a penny, in for a pound...paddling my barrel over to the conference. IMO this scene is one of the most (if not *the* most) hilarious comedic moments in the canon -- all the more so because it comes in the middle of Very Sirius Things. (I just couldn't resist the pun.) I can just see Hermione boo-hooing on Ron's shoulder, and the line about Ron being really relieved when she let go of him is priceless! Now: if R/H happens, the comedic value of the scene in hindsight multiplies exponentially...but if it doesn't, it's still funny. Lisa I. From sprsun at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 15:48:07 2001 From: sprsun at yahoo.com (sprsun at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:48:07 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gns7n+g76h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21162 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > 4) Harry has a dream about being chased by a dragon. In GoF > Harry flies a broom around a dragon. This means he is a Seer. > Discuss. I don't really think he's Seer. But for anyone who wants to support that theory, later in the book, during the Divination exam, Harry said that the Hippogriff was going to fly away free. I remember laughing aloud when I reached the part during the second reading, and wondering if he'd get top mark for that correct prediction. I thought it's just meant to be funny. Hui hoping it's not been discussed at length before. From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 19 15:55:14 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:55:14 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gnsl2+g7ih@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21163 Simon wrote: Questions and discussion points: "1) Hermione hugs Ron. Love interest or a friend apologising? (Especially relevant as we seem to be having a shipper conference at the moment ? I think calling it a war would be going too far)" --I don't see this as romantic any more than "the kiss" at the end of GoF (Which BTW I don't). Look at how much stress Hermione is under at this point in the book. She's been using the time turner for months, researching for Buckbeak's trial, and having a terrible row with Ron. "Yeah it will," said Ron fiercely. "You won't have to do all the work alone this time, Hermione. I'll help." Hermione flung her arms around Ron's neck and boke down completely..." By ending her arguement with Ron she got such a load off her shoulders that I think this is simply a natural reaction. "2) Hermione stands up to Malfoy over his comments about Hagrid. A foreshadowing of the SPEW events in GoF? An indicator of why she is in Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw?" --Yes (to both points). I know Hermione did that in a moment of anger, but you can't help stand by her for it. Draco was being such a git, and for Hermione to slap him not only shut him up, but put him into shock as well. (that last bit, put him into..., isn't worded right, is it?) "3) Has Hermione got the right idea about Divination? Or is it actually useful for something? If so what and who will be the one to show its uses? "4) Harry has a dream about being chased by a dragon. In GoF Harry flies a broom around a dragon. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. "5) Ron predicts that he will get an owl since Scabbers is no longer around. This means he is a Seer. Discuss." --I'm going to answer these three questions together because they tie in so nicely. Firstly I don't think Harry is a seer. After all his clairvoyant dreams are limited to the Voldemort variety. IOW he may be connected to Voldemort to the point that he can sense and see his actions through the scar connection, but that doesn't give him a gift of second sight. Secondly this is just one of the many little things Ron has said that later came true. (I won't go into all of them now, but there are other examples.) Does this mean Ron is a seer? I don't know, but I certainly think he could be. If Ron is a seer, and that's a big *if* at the moment, then how would this affect him? The most obvious thing is that it would give him fame above his siblings. But how would it affect his relationship with Hermione? After all she's not the biggest supporter of the art. Would she believe in Ron's powers, or deny them. This could create some interesting interactions between the two of them. Scott From blpurdom at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 16:55:07 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:55:07 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9go05b+5nsg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21164 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" wrote: > >Questions and discussion points: > >1) Hermione hugs Ron. Love interest or a friend apologising? > Foreshadowing of a future passionate love affair, of course. You jest, but I think it's true... > >2) Hermione stands up to Malfoy over his comments about Hagrid. A > >foreshadowing of the SPEW events in GoF? An indicator of why she > is in Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw? > Yes. Hermione's social activism is one of her key > characteristics. It'd be very interesting to see if there are the > equivalent of British political parties affiliated with the MoM-- > Hermione's the classic bleeding-heart liberal, I think. Yes but. Her standing up to him at this point seems to stem more from her lack of sleep and being on edge emotionally from it. She normally has more restraint (she's always trying to keep Ron and Harry from fighting with Malfoy to avoid Gryffindor losing house points). In that scene, JKR is depicting a typical sleep-deprived person. > >3) Has Hermione got the right idea about Divination? Or is it > actually useful for something? If so what and who will be the one > to show its uses? > > Well, we had that great fate vs. free will discussion a month or so > ago (waves at Amy Z). Personally, I don't think that the > Divination courses are just there for laughs... If it weren't for Divination, we wouldn't be privy to Trelawney's prediction about Wormtail returning to Voldemort...and in either 5, 6, or 7 we have to find out what the FIRST prediction was that she got right. Plus, it's good comic relief when they're fooling around making up horrible fates for themselves. > > >4) Harry has a dream about being chased by a dragon. In GoF Harry > flies a broom around a dragon. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. > > If Harry is a Seer, you'll have mass book burnings by fans who > think Harry Gets Enough Attention And Has Enough Talent As It Is. > Even I had a fleeting second like this ("WHY is this kid a > Champion?") upon first reading of GoF, but now I think that the Bad > Guys are so intent on killing him that he needs all the help he can > get. If he wants to survive canon, his bag of tricks had better be > full, I'm thinking. > I'm saying NOT a seer; JKR could be foreshadowing either the GoF first task, or the dragon could stand for Draco, who is definitely an enemy... > >5) Ron predicts that he will get an owl since Scabbers is no > longer around. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. > > We've had some interesting discussions in the past re: Ron's > prescience. Many people like the idea of Ron Being a Seer, for > obvious balancing-the-Trio reasons... count me among the Committee > for the Granting of Special Psychic Powers to the Guy Sidekick. I > know I think that getting clairvoyance would be a much > better "consolation prize" for him than just getting Hermione by > default. It would also serve several purposes: a very > obvious one is that Ron will be less likely to be tricked by the > Dark Side if he sees them coming. The more I think about this, the > more I like it. Ron was speculating that his parents might get him an owl, now that he no longer had Scabbers. Not an unreasonable expectation. It hardly makes him clairvoyant. And Ron already has shown that he is brave, he can strategize and he is self-sacrificing (the transfigured chess game that was McGonagall's obstacle to the Sorcerer's/ Philosopher's Stone; going into the Chamber of Secrets; telling Sirius Black that he'd have to kill him and Hermione too, if he killed Harry). He has also leaped in to defend Hermione from Malfoy on repeated occasions...He has faults too, of course, and after PoA they pretty much overshadow his good points. I think we'll see more of his cons and fewer of his pros before JKR "rehabilitates" him near the end of the series... --Barb From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Jun 19 17:11:55 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:11:55 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: <9gns7n+g76h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9go14r+5iu1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21165 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sprsun at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > > > 4) Harry has a dream about being chased by a dragon. In GoF > > Harry flies a broom around a dragon. This means he is a Seer. > > Discuss. > > > I don't really think he's Seer. But for anyone who wants to support > that theory, later in the book, during the Divination exam, Harry > said that the Hippogriff was going to fly away free. I remember > laughing aloud when I reached the part during the second reading, and > wondering if he'd get top mark for that correct prediction. I thought > it's just meant to be funny. > > Hui > hoping it's not been discussed at length before. More accurately, Ron's precognitive. Harry's Clairvoyant. Which, if the traits continue on true, Ron's talent will be the stronger of the two because they'll have advance warning. Harry's dreams in GoF were mostly "within minutes of them happening." I'm not so sure about either one of them, though. Trelawney being the big quasi-fake she is, latched onto Lavender and Padma [or was it Parvati?] as her star students...you'd think she'd have noticed if Ron and/or Harry had the Sight too, wouldn't she? Indigo From saitaina at wizzards.net Tue Jun 19 17:23:50 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:23:50 -0700 Subject: Funny quote from a JKR transcript References: <9go14r+5iu1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <017501c0f8e4$9c331800$044e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 21166 Several of you have probably seen this before but I just had to laugh at this question and awnser. She's imortalizing many a child's words when this happens to them. Is that a danger with the internet? The Internet! Twice I've been on the internet. Friends of mine were telling me what's on there and I'd never gone looking before. First time, I thought I was never coming back, it's too scary. Some of the stuff that's out there is very weird. Second time I went in there someone had set up an unofficial fan site where you can be sorted, they have a Sorting Hat, and I was Hufflepuff. I wasn't that pleased! If anyone's meant to be Griffyndor, it's me. From indigo at indigosky.net Tue Jun 19 17:56:18 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:56:18 -0000 Subject: Love Those Weasleys [re: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships] Message-ID: <9go3o5+6ckh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21167 >>ARTHUR WEASLEY According to Molly, has been "held back" by being >>actually interested in the nowhere job of protecting Muggles. No- >>one else is particularly interested in >>protecting Muggles or >>improving Muggle- wizard relations, so clearly not much money gets >>funneled into that branch of the Ministry (although they obviously >>have to pay lots of Obliviators to protect *wizards* from >>*Muggles*). Arthur is willing to pay the price, and have his family >>pay the price, for that interest and integrity, but it doesn't stop >>him being tired >>and worried most of the time we see him. Interesting. I also think they like their life in the Burrow and think the rich are a bit snobby and shallow. The Malfoys prove this supposition, too. >>MOLLY WEASLEY Has a fierce family patriotism. Her practical >>ingenuity holds the family's finances together, and her loyalty >>makes her a tigress when the sneering Daily Prophet comes to call. >>Worries as much as Arthur, but takes it out in energetic work and >>chivvying her children. Wants her children to succeed but not to compromise the Weasley name. She's proud of all her children with the possible exception of the twins. She's being a little myopic about them developing their natural talents. She seems to want a houseful of MoM boys, and is not really happy her sons have shown independence to some degree. However, her worry does tend to show itself in her temper, too, and in her tendency to be impulsive. She actually believed Rita Skeeter's article in Daily Prophet and treated Hermione coolly at best until Harry told her Skeeter was just making up nasty stories. Considering Ron thinks well of Hermione and Harry does too, even the fact that she doesn't know the girl well should not have evoked this sort of a negative reaction. >>BILL WEASLEY Works for the *bank*. And what the heck is a "charm- >>breaker" at Gringotts? My guess is that it's someone who breaks hexes and charms on money that has either been spelled by a wizard who is deceased, or money that was stolen and hexed to prevent it being taken back to its rightful owners. >>He tells Molly that the goblins don't care how he dresses "as long >>as he brings home plenty of treasure." Does this mean he's a >>forecloser or something? Does "bringing treasure home" >>mean bringing it to the bank or bringing it to himself by working >>hard at the bank? I suspect it's the former, because of the >>word "treasure." Same here! I doubt he's a forecloser. The Weasley heart is too big for something that cruel, if necessary. Bill seems far too laid back in my mind. >>But I don't see "cool" Bill Weasley taking up anything in the tax- >>collecting line. Maybe he raids Egyptian tombs like Indiana Jones. >>He's obviously acquired the ponytail and earring since his Hogwarts >>days, since Molly tells him his hair's "getting ridiculous". Is >>this typical firstborn behavior, to sort of kick loose once he >>leaves school? Definitely it is! He's also trying, to some degree, to distance himself from Arthur's name. Yes, he's a Weasley, with Weasley pride, but Arthur is thought of as "that poor Muggle-loving guy," and clucked at with a mixture of confusion and pity, often. >>Not, I think, in a rebellious way exactly; I think Bill has a good >>humor about himself, and doesn't take himself so seriously that his >>appearance is an all-important statement. He seems pretty well- >>adjusted, if that term really means anything. >>CHARLIE WEASLEY According to Oliver Wood, he "could have played >>Quidditch for England if he hadn't gone off chasing dragons." Feh! Oliver is Quidditch Obsessed. Charlie, like his brother and his father, went into a line of work that called him. Dragon-tending is too dangerous and intense an activity for him to be in that line of work if he loved Quidditch so mcuh, or had other opportunities. That's a labor of love to my mind. >>Like Arthur, he seems to have pursued his interests regardless of >>whether they'll pay off financially, like those of us who sell our >>souls to get a post-graduate degree and become a Starving Artist or >>Starving Writer. :) Is Dragon-tending a poor-paying job? I had the impression that it was the opposite, due to its high risk nature, and the fact that it requires a good many wizards to get a spell to WORK on a dragon's magic-resistant hide. >> Is Charlie a kind of Jane Goodall, or is he working toward a CoMC >>degree of some sort? I don't think so. >>PERCY WEASLEY Percy seems to me to be the quintessential >>Scholarship Boy, what Richard Rodriguez calls a child who plunges >>headlong into academia and worships authority so as to escape from >>the hardship of his background (in Rodriguez's case, he was from a >>working-class Hispanic family). Molly would be utterly mortified if this were the case. That house is full to bursting with love, and Molly makes sure everyone is so well looked after. And it's obvious she encourages her sons to follow their hearts, not necessarily their wallets -- even if she's not happy with Bill's long hair and earring. >> Percy seeks to be the Perfect Customer Service Representative with >>everyone he deals with, doling out advice and information, teaching >>or learning with equal alacrity where it might earn him credit. The >>members of Percy Lovers Unite! may have a soft spot for Percy, but >>I doubt Percy has a soft spot for himself. At this moment (post- >>GoF), if he's not sitting in Azkaban for offing BCSr. (whoever >>posted that gave me thrills and chills), YIKES! Given Fudge would want to cover up that Barty Junior the Death Eater, Percy would make a good fall guy, yes. >> he's probably sitting by the Weasley fireside with his hands >>clasped miserably between his knees, his mother dosing him with >>cups of chamomile tea and Ginny trying to badger him into a >>chess game. Hopefully he's learned something about being such a martinet with regard to his job. Strictness is no good by itself, without empathy and intuition. Percy does have his human side, though. We saw it in GoF when Ron came up out of the lake, and when he got bashful about his girlfriend. I personally need more scenes like that to become anything resembling sympathetic to him. >> FRED and GEORGE WEASLEY Fred and George, in a backlash against >>Percy's Scholarship-Boyism, have put their considerable wit to work >>being the zaniest and most mischievous rascals ever to set foot in >>Hogwarts. They earn their mother's wrath for dawdling about their >>OWLs, and they plan to become entrepreneurs of joke candies. >>However, as many have pointed out, they are always generous when >>they have anything to be generous with, and they notice other >>people's hardships more than any of the other >>characters except perhaps Dumbledore. It's one of the twins who >>worries grimly about their parents' being able to afford all those >>Lockhart books, and it's usually the twins who notice Harry's >>various social plights and lend him a hand. These characteristics >>intensify their anger against Ludo Bagman for cheating them, and >>test their diplomacy in dealing with him. They also have the >>Weasley pride; Harry has to threaten them with a hex >>before they'll take the Triwizard winnings off his hands. Spot-on. They also have the Weasley temper, but are quick-burning about it as opposed to long-stewing about it like their younger brother. >>RONALD WEASLEY I've posted a lot on Ron in the last several weeks, >>so I won't cover the same ground twice...it's probably obvious by >>now that I really like Ron. >>Same here, though I've stood on the "Hey, Ron needs to grow up and >>get his act together" platform, I reallly do like and feel for the >>kid. >>We see that what he tells Harry on their first train trip to >>Hogwarts is true: His brothers before him have all run the spectrum >>of How To Carry Proudly the Weasley Name, and he's going to have a *very* difficult time trying to find his own niche without being >>either a cookie-cutter or a loser. Yes. This is one of the reasons I most empathize with Ron. I dealt with the "Oh, you're ______'s kid sister" angst in high school. During the years when you most need to establish you're YOURSELF and that your own personality traits matter, it hurts to be compared to older siblings, especially if they're very successful. >>He shares Charlie's love of Quidditch, but like Charlie doesn't >>regard it as a career option, and it's not mentioned that he's even >>tried out for a spot on the Gryffindor team. >> I'm inclined to think he probably didn't try out for one. I think he enjoys Quidditch; and the mirror of Erised showed him as Head Boy with a Quidditch Cup, but I think all of that was just Ron's fantasy. He wants to be as good as ALL his older brothers, which would make him better because he'd top Bill, Charlie and Percy, all together, not one at a time. >>He plays lots of chess with Percy, and seems to have the better >>strategical mind, but like Fred and George is irritated by Percy's >>obsequiousness. Unlike F&G, however, Ron's wit is too dry to put to >>active use playing pranks, and so doesn't have much of a way to let >>off his irritation in some good-old-fashioned fun. He'd probably >>excel if he acted like Percy, but he can't stand Percy, so he >>doesn't work at his studies. He also is irritated by Hermione's constant "You should study!" and "Doesn't anyone ever read ?" protestations. Ron's one of those people who will do the opposite of what is demanded of him, just to feel independent. >>He's very slowly tumbling to the fact that if he's going to find >>that niche of his, he's going to have to do it himself; it's not >>going to fall into his lap. Ron has a challenge ahead of him; and >>I'm really curious to find out what JKR will do with him next. He needs to get over his "everything I own is rubbish" idea first I think >>GINNY WEASLEY Okay, it's been pretty well-established that Penny >>Doesn't Like Ginny , and that the main reason Ginny's fans are >>mostly in the closet is that, well, that's where Ginny is most of >>the time, too. In my view, she has less of a challenge ahead of her >>than Ron; she's a girl, and whatever that means, it most certainly >>means that there aren't any other Weasleys who beat her to the >>punch in every way. True. She is the only girl, so that gives her an advantage over Ron. She's also the baby, so that's two advantages she has over Ron and the others. >> Tom Riddle mocks her private anguish when he repeats her diary >>entries to Harry: "She said her brothers *tease* her, that she had >>to come to school with secondhand robes and books, and the good, >>great Harry Potter might *never* like her"... If Riddle hadn't >>mocked her for us to hear, we might never have known that she has >>the Weasley pride too. She loves Hogwarts, has been looking forward >>to getting in on the fun all her life. She "never shuts up >>normally" -- that is, at home, according to Ron -- but at school, >>or at least in Harry's presence, keeps her mouth shut except for >>the occasional leap to Harry's defence. She suffers in silence, but >>when we get to see her act, she is very practical-minded -- mends >>her books with Spellotape whereas Ron lets his fall apart (see FB margin notes). Again, Ron's got the hangup about all his belongings being trash, since he's never had anything that wasn't a hand-me-down except his new wand. >>She seems to have a special relationship with Percy -- at least, >>Percy's taken it upon himself to parent her whether she needs it or >>not, and I suspect she has an instinct similar to his. We >>don't know what kind of student she is. I'm beating on the glass to >>see more of her, frankly. I don't really care one way or the other about Ginny, sadly. I think the "baby sister of the best friend has a crush on the hero" a tiny bit clicheed. Indigo From pbarhug at earthlink.net Tue Jun 19 18:07:54 2001 From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:07:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blacks in HP References: Message-ID: <3B2F94FA.AF15689C@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21168 Ebony Elizabeth Thomas wrote: > > > Lee's never mentioned as being black... it just states that he has > dreadlocks. Anyone with a certain type of hair can twist it into > dreads. > So the probability of him being of another ethnicity is there, because > I > went to school with a Jewish guy who wore dreads. Quite true. When I was in college, there was an Asian guy who tried and tried to develop dreds; unforutnately, he never got anything but long, tangly braids. But while there is the possibiliyt that Lee could be of any ethnicity, I think we have to assume some things about JKR's real life cultural contexts and experiences. After all, don't these form the bases of the things that are written about? While it's *possible* that Lee is white, it us more probable that he is a person of color. We'll not know for sure until someone asks JKR. > Dean's mentioned as black in the American edition of PS (SS 122). If > he's > not black in the UK, then the obvious conclusion is that Scholastic > did some > tampering with the MS for profit's sake. A great selling point for > modern > kidlit is "multiculturalism"--fellow American teachers, how many > inservices/workshops/conferences have you attended on this theme? The > > United States has a significantly greater "ethnic" population than the > > United Kingdom does... bet you anything Scholastic would've put a > Hispanic > character somewhere in Hogwarts if they could have gotten away with > it. :-D > How about a different explanation for this one, too? When I read PS the first time, I was a bit confused by all of the dialogue and page time devoted to Dean Thomas. Who was he? Did I miss him in the Sorting? I kept turning back to look for him. It may be that an American editior had the same trouble and said to JKR, can we put him in the Sorting, just to give him a bit more context? so, in she drops a little reference to and description of Dean. It's likely that his ethnicity is JKR's creation; she saw him as a tall black boy. If it were more likely a creation of American editors, then I would expect to see Julio Garcia just before Hermione or Miranda Perez just before Harry. drpam From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Tue Jun 19 18:28:54 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 18:28:54 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9go5l6+1mjn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21169 > >5) Ron predicts that he will get an owl since Scabbers is no longer around. > > This means he is a Seer. Discuss. > > We've had some interesting discussions in the past re: Ron's prescience. > Many people like the idea of Ron Being a Seer, for obvious > balancing-the-Trio reasons... count me among the Committee for the Granting > of Special Psychic Powers to the Guy Sidekick. I know I think that getting > clairvoyance would be a much better "consolation prize" for him than just > getting Hermione by default. It would also serve several purposes: a very > obvious one is that Ron will be less likely to be tricked by the Dark Side > if he sees them coming. The more I think about this, the more I like it. > Regarding Ron's possible Seer abilities, I've heard it argued (expect it was here, but not recently in any case) that he could in fact be the seventh son of Arthur and Molly if there was another between Charlie and Percy that died in childhood. The only tenuous argument in favour of this is Ron's staement in PS "I'm the sixth in our family to go to Hogwarts" which is the kind of statement people who have lost children/siblings make when they don't want to deny the existance of another, but don't want to discuss them either. As I understand it seventh sons are supposed to have prophetic or healing powers - more so if their father was also a seventh son. I'm not sure I really buy into this argument myself. It seems to me that JKR would have given us more hints/clues, but who knows? Florence From oppen at cnsinternet.com Tue Jun 19 18:44:07 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:44:07 -0500 Subject: A couple of questions from a new member.... Message-ID: <009001c0f8ef$d2f4baa0$b8ae1cce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 21170 I was reading along, and got to the part where we find out what happened to Neville's parents. A question occured to me: _Is_ there a real "St. Mungo," possibly with some sort of connection in his life or his saintly specialty either to magic and wizardry? I have no idea, and don't know where to look. There are literally thousands of little-known saints, so Herself could easily have found one that would be particularly appropriate for this hospital. A lot of religious institutions are named after appropriate saints; an example is the chapel in the Tower of London, St. Peter Ad Vincula, meaning "Saint Peter, in chains," referring to St. Peter's experience as a prisoner under the Romans. Given the Tower's status as a prison, it was a natural choice of a name. I was quite surprised to find that there was a "real" Saint Trinian, since I had thought it was something the cartoonist made up. (Harry Potter and his friends teaming up with the Belles of St. Trinians---what a horrifying thought!) Secondly: Could someone mail me offlist at oppen at cnsinternet.com the URL for the quiz everybody's talking about? From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jun 19 18:49:37 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 18:49:37 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9go6s1+49t2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21171 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > 1) Hermione hugs Ron. Love interest or a friend apologising? Definitely a friend apologizing. I don't think Hermione feeling bad about Scabbers had anything to do with any possible growing feelings towards Ron (and I'm an R/H shipper). > 2) Hermione stands up to Malfoy over his comments about Hagrid. A > foreshadowing of the SPEW events in GoF? An indicator of why she is in Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw? You know, I don't really care why she slapped him - I just love that she did. I hope she gets to put Malfoy in his place again (I was going to say that I hope she beats the crap out of him, but I don't wish violence on others like that). > 3) Has Hermione got the right idea about Divination? Or is it actually useful for something? If so what and who will be the one to show its uses? I think Hermione has the right idea about Trelawney, not necessarily Divination. If Hermione had a better professor, she might feel differently. > 4) Harry has a dream about being chased by a dragon. In GoF Harry flies a broom around a dragon. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. Someone just mentioned that Harry's Seeing was mainly in relation to Voldie, which is an excellent point. However, I think there is more to it than just Voldie. Harry's dream about trying to catch up to something with hoofs (PoA) is not coincidental enough for me. I think he's got the Sight. > 5) Ron predicts that he will get an owl since Scabbers is no longer around. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. I see no real evidence of this, other than coincidence, like Harry's "prediction" to Trelawney that Buckbeak would get away. My books are at home; I'll post more on this later. > --jenny from ravenclaw******************************************** From ochfd42 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 18:52:51 2001 From: ochfd42 at yahoo.com (Angela Boyko) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: <9go14r+5iu1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010619185251.92765.qmail@web11704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21172 --- Indigo wrote > > I'm not so sure about either one of them, though. > Trelawney being > the big quasi-fake she is, latched onto Lavender > and Padma [or was > it Parvati?] as her star students...you'd think > she'd have noticed if > Ron and/or Harry had the Sight too, wouldn't she? I think she latched on to Lavender and Parvati because they do believe she has the Sight, and are fans, the way Colin is a fan of Harry's. The girls take Trelawney's predictions very seriously, which flatters her a lot more than two teenaged boys who can't stop laughing in class. Myself, I'm with Hermione when it comes to Trelawney. Angela ===== * * * http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/4439/index.html * * * May the Force be with you _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 19 19:08:47 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 19:08:47 -0000 Subject: St. Mungo (was Re: A couple of questions from a new member....) In-Reply-To: <009001c0f8ef$d2f4baa0$b8ae1cce@hppav> Message-ID: <9go7vv+t6ej@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21173 Eric wrote: "I was reading along, and got to the part where we find out what happened to Neville's parents. A question occured to me: _Is_ there a real "St. Mungo," possibly with some sort of connection in his life or his saintly specialty either to magic and wizardry? I have no idea, and don't know where to look." --We've discussed this before, and you can find more speculation in the archives (I know! I know!. He is the patron saint of Glasgow, and his activity centered around parts of Scotland, N. England, and Wales, and according to a website I found- (http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/plaza/aaj50/mungo.htm) he is mentioned in many Arthurian legends. Try that website, and it should help with your question. Does the fact that the wizarding hospital is named after a saint mean that it is Anglican (or Catholic)? I guess it's not a given, but it does make sense. This is almost the only Christian (or religious for that matter) reference in the books of which I know, but in and of itself I don't think it proves the religion of the WW, since it could have been founded by St. Mungo without being religously affiliated (right?). I do think that it proves St. Mungo's is in Glasgow though. Scott From joy0823 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 19 19:27:48 2001 From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:27:48 -0400 Subject: oppen@cnsinternet.com References: <009001c0f8ef$d2f4baa0$b8ae1cce@hppav> Message-ID: <009101c0f8f5$ed91b880$3248fea9@cp124541b> No: HPFGUIDX 21174 Hi Eric, I'm not sure about St. Mungo, but I'm an avid fan of the quiz you asked about (54% obsessed here!). You can find it at http://www.fuuko.com/hpquiz.html. Incidentally, the answers to that question and other common ones are compiled at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm. You might want to check it out. Enjoy the group! ~Joy~ http://www.geocities.com/joy0823 Last Movie Seen: "Almost Famous" Now Reading: "On the Street Where You Live" by Mary Higgins Clark From JenniferABacker at cs.com Tue Jun 19 19:35:22 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:35:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] St. Mungo (was Re: A couple of questions from a new membe... Message-ID: <65.160032df.2861037a@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21175 In a message dated 6/19/01 2:26:13 PM Central Daylight Time, insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk writes: << This is almost the only Christian (or religious for that matter) reference in the books of which I know, but in and of itself I don't think it proves the religion of the WW, since it could have been founded by St. Mungo without being religously affiliated (right?). I do think that it proves St. Mungo's is in Glasgow though. >> Hi, I don't if you mean the only reference in the whole book or just when it's about the whole WW. Either way, Sirius is Harry's Godfather is another religious reference. I don't know much about other religion so it may bot be Catholic but I know when you're baptized in a Catholic Church you get Godparents. I want to know about Harry's Godmother. Think she's still around? Maybe she could explain things...hey maybe it's Figg! ::shrugs:: Worth a shot ;-) I may love werewolves <3 <3 but a big black dog will <3 <3 always have my heart <3 <3 Please join my weekly *NSYNC zine: Now & Forever Get cash the fun and easy way: RefRewards If you join these zines please put JenniferABacker referred ya! It'd mean a LOT:) Great variety zine: Animosity Learn about a great new singer: Official Gina Marie Zine Daily *NSYNC news & pics; short loading: 'nsync fantasy mad cow season - freebies behind the music - graphics From joy0823 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 19 19:36:55 2001 From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:36:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] oppen@cnsinternet.com References: <009001c0f8ef$d2f4baa0$b8ae1cce@hppav> <009101c0f8f5$ed91b880$3248fea9@cp124541b> Message-ID: <00a201c0f8f7$3592d640$3248fea9@cp124541b> No: HPFGUIDX 21176 Oops, sorry. That was supposed to go directly to Eric. I guess I put his e-mail address in the subject line instead of the to line. ~Joy~ http://www.geocities.com/joy0823 Last Movie Seen: "Almost Famous" Now Reading: "On the Street Where You Live" by Mary Higgins Clark From chl0525 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 19 19:58:17 2001 From: chl0525 at hotmail.com (chl0525 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 19:58:17 -0000 Subject: oppen@cnsinternet.com In-Reply-To: <00a201c0f8f7$3592d640$3248fea9@cp124541b> Message-ID: <9goasp+sngh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21177 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "- Joy -" wrote: > Oops, sorry. That was supposed to go directly to Eric. I guess I put his > e-mail address in the subject line instead of the to line. red and walks away with head hung> > > ~Joy~ > > http://www.geocities.com/joy0823 > Last Movie Seen: "Almost Famous" > Now Reading: "On the Street Where You Live" by Mary Higgins Clark I wanted to know too, so THANKS! Michelle only 32% obsessed, but working on it. (back to lurking now) From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jun 19 20:46:12 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:46:12 -0000 Subject: Why Ron Isn't a Seer Message-ID: <9godmk+74bc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21178 Hello again! I wrote earlier that I would post something about Ron and Seeing, but I was at school without my books. Now I am home, with the air conditioning on and the books by my side. I don't understand why people think Ron is a Seer. I do think JKR is trying to show us just how imprecise an art Divination really is, and she does it nicely through Trelawney, and I do think Harry has the ability. I also believe that Ron has some moments of real insight, but that doesn't mean that he is Seeing. I don't have lists of examples, but I have a few to back up why I think Ron isn't a Seer. * He is often wrong about who he believes to be guilty. He continues to be suspicious of Snape even though he knows that in SS, Snape saved Harry from Quirrel. Ron is also very quick to accuse Malfoy of nearly everything under the sun, simply because he dislikes Malfoy so much, not necessarily because Malfoy does things that arouse real suspicion. Wouldn't he have felt otherwise if he was a Seer? * Ron was quite insightful when he, Harry and Hermione visited Sirius in GoF when he says "I know Dumbledore's brilliant and everything, but that doesn't mean a really clever Dark wizard couldn't fool him-" (Ch 27). Here, he was right, but not due to any psychic abilities. He was just stating something that anyone could think of on their own. In fact, in the same chapter, he accuses Snape of being a DE and Lucius Malfoy of stealing Harry's wand at the World Cup. * We have also never heard of Ron having any real "visions" or dreams the way Harry has. I feel that we would have been privy to such experiences of Ron's had they happened. Perhaps his Seeing hasn't been truly discovered or even developed yet, but I doubt it. I'm sure there is more, but this is what I found so far. I'm also sure people will jump in to tear my points to shreds, which I'm used to by now *sigh*. I'd like to hear what people think, regardless. --jenny from ravenclaw, who has six day left until her summer vacation!*********************************** From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 19 21:03:12 2001 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:03:12 -0000 Subject: My prediction Message-ID: <9goemg+n844@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21179 My prediction: After a difficult struggle Fudge is defeated and Arthur Wesley is made the new minister of magic. The first thing Arthur does in his new position is grant Sirius a full pardon, but then Sirius is killed defending Harry from the forces of Voldemort. At least Sirius dies a free man. Not long after that Arthur is killed by Voldemort too, this brings Harry and Ron even closer together, they virtually become brothers, Ron lost his father and Harry lost his surrogate father. From eccleston at clara.co.uk Tue Jun 19 22:09:15 2001 From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:09:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's past Message-ID: <9goiib+l1cr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21180 I don't often feel informed enough to post here, but having re-read all 4 HP books on a recent holiday I feel impelled to write. My 7 year old daughter has been very struck by, in effect, the moral tone of the books. For example Dumbledore talks about the importance of making choices, and Sirius points out to Pettigrew that he had the choice not to go to the dark side, but do the honourable thing & get killed. All this talk about making choices forced me to give examples to my daughter and I found myself talking about resistance in Germany and across Europe to facism in the 30's and then in WW II. That then made me think of the comments on the chocolate frog card in PS stating that Dumbledore had defeated the dark wizard ? "Grunwald" in 1945. Given JKR's constant hinting & giving of clues I tend to look for meanings in most of her statements & it made me wonder if she was trying to draw any comparisons or allusions here, given the date. All of this could, of course, merely be the early onset of dementia, but I wonder if anyone else has any views about parallels with resistance to oppresive states. Steve eccleston at clara.co.uk From dosser at btinternet.com Tue Jun 19 22:12:42 2001 From: dosser at btinternet.com (Chris Dosset) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:12:42 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Ron Isn't a Seer References: <9godmk+74bc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <002301c0f90c$f80b7c80$9a08073e@chris> No: HPFGUIDX 21181 ----- Original Message ----- From: meboriqua at aol.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 9:46 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Ron Isn't a Seer Hello again! I wrote earlier that I would post something about Ron and Seeing, but I was at school without my books. Now I am home, with the air conditioning on and the books by my side. (snip) One of my favourite scenes where Ron sees into the future is in GoF where Hermiony is wolfing her food and Ron asks if she is going to help her House Elf movement by making herself throw up. What does Hermiony come up with? S.P.E.W. of course! :-) Chris --jenny from ravenclaw, who has six day left until her summer vacation!*********************************** Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Click for Details _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 19 22:18:38 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:18:38 -0000 Subject: Dark Mark Sparking Again (filk) Message-ID: <9goj3u+jvlk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21182 Dark Mark Sparking Again (From GoF, Chapter 33) (To the tune of Lightnin' Strikin' Again) Dedicated to Wanda Mallett The Scene: The Cemetery at Little Hangleton. VOLDEMORT addresses the assembled DEATH EATERS as HARRY remains bound against the tomb of Tom Riddle VOLDEMORT I won't deny my methods may have been a tad grotesque But I've now made a comeback that's supremely Nixon-esque Even now our enemies are drawing their last breaths It's within our grasp again, those days we dined on death Dark Wizards want chattel who will be obedient When I see you groveling I feel radiant VOLDEMORT AND (HARRY) I see all my old tattoos takin' on stronger hues (Stop!) I won't stop (Stop!) I won't stop myself (Stop! Stop!) VOLDEMORT Dark Mark sparkling again Dark Mark sparkling again Since our last assembly, we've had 13 years elapse Within the DE circle, I take note of certain gaps There were three who died for me in a brave defeat One's too craven to return, and one is soon dead meat But the third servant has proven his fierce loyalty He has made capturing Harry his specialty VOLDEMORT AND (HARRY) When my servant brings good news he will get rave reviews (stop!) He won't stop (Stop!) He won't stop himself (Stop! Stop!) VOLDEMORT & DEATH EATERS Dark Mark sparkling again Dark Mark sparkling again and again, you/we are Voldemort's men VOLDEMORT Since last time things got messed up at the Potter house This time I'll make sure that we create a slaughterhouse VOLDEMORT & (HARRY) Because now I'm gonna vent all of my ill intent (Stop!) I won't stop! (Stop!) I'm never gonna stop! VOLDEMORT AND DEATH EATERS Dark Mark sparkling again! Dark Mark sparkling again and again We hate Potter times ten! Dark Mark sparkling again (fade-out) - CMC From eccleston at clara.co.uk Tue Jun 19 22:27:10 2001 From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:27:10 -0000 Subject: Blacks in HP (was: Dean again - Bill's living - JKR's activities) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gojju+4lh0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21183 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" wrote: > Haggridd wrote: > > >I don't recall any references to Dean's race. The only persons > >described as black are both friends of the twins: Lee Jordan, and > >Angelina, who went to the Yule Ball with Gred--or was it Forge? I > >hope I haven't restated the obvious. > > > Lee's never mentioned as being black... it just states that he has > dreadlocks. Anyone with a certain type of hair can twist it into dreads. > So the probability of him being of another ethnicity is there, because I > went to school with a Jewish guy who wore dreads. > > Dean's mentioned as black in the American edition of PS (SS 122). If he's > not black in the UK, then the obvious conclusion is that Scholastic did some > tampering with the MS for profit's sake. A great selling point for modern > kidlit is "multiculturalism"--fellow American teachers, how many > inservices/workshops/conferences have you attended on this theme? The > United States has a significantly greater "ethnic" population than the > United Kingdom does... bet you anything Scholastic would've put a Hispanic > character somewhere in Hogwarts if they could have gotten away with it. :-D > > In a couple of weeks, I'll be in the UK attending summer classes at Corpus > Christi. One of my two electives is a comparative US/UK education course... > the research paper I plan to do is a comparison/contrast of literate > practices between majority/minority children in the schools I'll survey. I > wonder if the UK has the same problems educating children who are not "the > norm" that our country does. > > Of course, we know Hogwarts doesn't have that problem. :-) > > --Ebony I think most people in the UK would assume "dreadlocks = black". White people with dreadlocks really is quite unusual here From simon at hp.inbox.as Tue Jun 19 22:35:17 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:35:17 +0100 Subject: DISCUSSION - Quidditch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21184 Shall Binkly: "Some people believe Quidditch is a matter of life and death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that." [1] [2] Quidditch - The Noble Sport of Warlocks? A simple sport involving fourteen players, one referee, four balls and six goal hoops. We have three Chasers on each team and it is there job to pass the Quaffle between them and get it through one of the oppositions goal hoops. Doing so gains the team ten points. Trying to stop the Quaffle from entering one of the goal hoops is the Keeper. Then we have two Beaters who knock the Bludgers around the pitch, attempting to stop them from crashing into their own teammates while sending them in the direction of the opposition. Finally we have perhaps the most important player on the team and the smallest of the four balls. The Seeker who is attempting to catch the rapidly moving Golden Snitch and doing so gains the team one hundred and fifty points and also ends the game. --------------------- POSITIONS Seeker: Arguably the most important player on the pitch and especially so in the context of the school games. Instinct and observation are key. Keeper: Cunning and fearlessness are important. You need to be able to fool the opposition and intimidate them into doing something silly. Chaser: Teamwork. The Chasers have to be able to communicate well. The Gryffindor girls and the Irish chasers seem to know what the others are going to do and so work amazingly well together. A high skill level is important, but the teamwork and coordination between the three is even more crucial. Beater: Power and brains. It is not just a case of hit and hope, you need to be able to think and attack the right person at the right time. --------------------- FLYING We learn in QTtA that 'no spell yet devised enables wizards to fly unaided in human form' and so they instead ride on a broom. "Flying is a strange thing. You can't settle for a broom, you have to love it as though it were your arm or your leg. Treating the broom like it's just something you sit on to help you fly is not enough, ... Beware flying with a broomstick that isn't a part of you - it only leads to trouble." [3] I would guess that I am not alone in wishing for a broomstick and sometime in the air to fly. For an incredibly long time it has been an ambition of the human race to be able to fly with the birds. Seemingly this is not possible by ones self, but with the aid of a broomstick a wizard can fly high in the sky. In the first flying lesson (PS Ch 9) we see how a broom reacts to different people. For the nervous nothing, but for the gifted an instant attraction. Flying, especially as a part of playing Quidditch, seems to be based around natural instinct. Harry is one of those with natural talent. The broom seems to obey his every thought and this shows through in his flying ability. The big question here is how much is flying instinct and how much is training? Also how much does this alter for the different positions on the Quidditch field? --------------------- GAMES Gryffindor vs. Slytherin - PS Ch 11 Gryffindor win 170 - 60. Harry nearly swallows the Snitch after Quirrell has hexed his broom. Gryffindor vs. Hufflepuff - PS Ch 13 Gryffindor win. Snape referees and the game is incredibly short. Gryffindor vs. Slytherin - CoS Ch 10 Gryffindor win. Harry catches Snitch after having his arm broken by the Rogue Bludger. Gryffindor vs. Hufflepuff - PoA Ch 9 Hufflepuff win. Harry falls off broom due to the Dementors. Gryffindor vs. Ravenclaw - PoA Ch 13 Gryffindor win. Malfoy and co. play a trick on Harry, but it fails. Gryffindor vs. Slytherin - PoA Ch 15 Gryffindor win 230 - 20. Slytherin play dirty, but Gryffindor win thanks to some inspired play by Harry and a faster broom than Malfoy. The cup goes to Gryffindor. Ireland - Bulgaria - GoF Ch 8 Ireland win 170 - 160. Bulgaria are outclassed by a very good Irish team and Krum catches the Snitch to end the game even though his team then loses. How realistic are these games? Do any of us have a decent grasp of the rules and logistics of the game of Quidditch? I have many ideas, but still seem unsure about some crucial details. The games are an important part of PS and PoA, but are pushed out of the way in CoS and GoF. How will people feel if Quidditch is side tracked for the rest of the series? I for one will be mightily disappointed if we see no more Quidditch. --------------------- TEAMS UK and Ireland: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Geographic%20Locations/ukmap .jpg Europe and Africa: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/atlas-q-eu-af.html Asia and Oceania: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/atlas-q-as-au.html If my positioning of the teams in the UK map is correct then they all seem to be situated fairly near to the coast. Looking further at the other teams mentioned in QTtA it seems that many of these are also situated near the coast, a big river or lake. Could this be part of the precautions to stop the muggles from finding out about the wizards or is it just a coincidence? --------------------- QUESTIONS AND DISCUSSION POINTS (In addition to the ones asked above) 1) Who will be the new captains for the Hogwarts Quidditch teams? Oliver Wood and Marcus Flint left Hogwarts after PoA [4] and Cedric Diggory died in GoF. This means that Gryffindor, Slytherin and Hufflepuff are definitely in need of new Quidditch team captains and maybe Ravenclaw are also in need of a new captain, depending on the age of Roger Davies. So who will these new captains be? Well we do not know how the captains are chosen, but this has never stopped us speculating on such matters! (a) For Gryffindor we have a choice of 6 people, the three chasers [5], the Weasley Twins or Harry. I cannot see the justification for bringing a new player into the team and instantly making them the captain. The first five of these have the most experience, but there is the problem that they are all in their final year at Hogwarts. This means that at the end of the year all of them will leave, leaving Harry, and possibly the new Keeper, as the only players left on the team for the following year [6]. I would think it is unlikely that a new person to the team would be made captain; the Houses are most likely to pick someone who has played for the team before to be captain, as they will know the set-up a lot better than a new player. So if Harry were not made captain in his fifth year then whoever gets the job in the following year will be left in a horribly complex position. They will be a person with no experience at being the captain of a team and they will also be in the position of having to pick nearly a complete new team and train them from scratch. (b) For Slytherin will we be seeing a new set of brooms for the team and a certain Draco Malfoy as captain? This is another opportunity to get one over on Harry but will he take it? Or will he, instead, just let it pass and not bother with this anymore? He has failed in almost everything he has tried to do against Harry and maybe he will give up and not worry about Quidditch anymore. (c) For the other two houses do we know of any possibilities? Will Cho continue to play after the death of Cedric? 2) Keeper out of the scoring area? Seemingly the rules allow for the Keeper to go anywhere on the pitch. In PoA all of the Slytherin team, apart from Draco as Seeker, converge on one of the Gryffindor Chasers in a very interesting manoeuvre. So, if you were a Keeper, would you consider the possibility of flying out of the scoring area and assisting the Chasers on an attack? If you needed quick scores then 4 on three attacking makes a lot more sense than 3 on 3 (c.f. removing the goaltender in ice hockey and the goalkeeper going up front in football [7]). It would give you the spare person to attack with, but does leave you vulnerable to the quick break. Is the risk worth the reward? 3) Other players touching the Quaffle? There is definitely a rule against any player, except for the Seeker, touching the Snitch [QTtA]. Is there a similar rule that bans the Seeker and Beaters from touching the Quaffle? From my understanding of what is written in QTtA there is not. Does this make sense? Would it be an idea that if needed your Beaters could get involved with the Quaffle if it came their way? 4) Who won the Quidditch Cup in Harry's first year? We know that Gryffindor did not. The results we know are Gryffindor beat Hufflepuff and Slytherin. Ravenclaw beat Gryffindor. I do not think we know of any of the other results. So who did win? My money would be on Ravenclaw, but it is not definite. 5) How are new moves created? [8] "... he gripped his broomstick with his right hand, as tightly as he could, and threw his body to the left side, his hand outstretched. The momentum through the air from his thrust send him spinning in a circle. While he was halfway into it, he pulled his broom up, which made him spin in two directions at the same time, to the left, and backwards. His eyes were wide open as he forced them to focus on anything that might pass his field of vision, ideally a tiny golden orb." [9] In QTtA we are told about various moves that are commonly found in Quidditch games and in GoF we see Krum pull off one of these moves, The Wronski Feint, in the Quidditch World Cup. What we know little about is how anyone thinks up a new move. Does the Muggle knowledge of various other sports give rise to many new moves? Or do you just need an insane person to try something stupid to come up with a fantastic new move to astound the opposition? 6) Harry, Draco or Viktor? Which of these three is the best Seeker? A seemingly innocent question, but do we have a clue. Draco is talented and has won a fair number of games, against some decent opposition (in Cho and Cedric as Seekers for Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff). When he plays against Harry he is seemingly too intent on winding him up to actually concentrate on his own game. If he were to actually concentrate on his own game, instead of Harry's, he could be a great player. But how great? Harry seems to be the one how plays most to his instincts, but has he got the brains to go with the raw talent? He has only played 6 games as Seeker and seemingly needs to play more to become really talented. Viktor is impressed with Harry's flying ability, but is flying enough to be a good Seeker? Is Harry's problem likely to be that he just plays far too fair for his own good? In PoA (Ch 13) Wood makes a comment about knocking Cho off her broom and to stop being the gentleman. Krum we only see play once, but he comes across as being much better than the Irish Seeker. Ron, who knows a fair amount about Quidditch, thinks that Viktor is good. He definitely has the match practise to get an experienced Irish Seeker to fall for his Wronski Feint. And to be thrown into this discussion on Seekers is the one we hear about but do not see play. How good is Charlie? Is Harry really better than him or is this just everyone going over the top on the praise? 7) Hogwarts Dream Team In PoA, when he is announcing the teams, Lee remarks that the current Gryffindor team is one of the best to have graced Hogwarts Quidditch Pitch. Just how good are they? If there were a Hogwarts team (and why is there not one? Or will there be one in the future to promote links between the schools?) who would be in it? To make this slightly easier I think we will have to allow anyone who has been at Hogwarts during Harry's time there (else the list of Keepers is very short). --------------------- REFERENCES PS: Harry Potter and the Philopsher's Stone (Ch.'s 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 13 and 17) CoS: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (Ch.'s 7 and 10) PoA: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (Ch.'s 8, 9, 13 and 15) GoF: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (Ch 8) QTtA: Quidditch Through the Ages Lex: http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/quidditch.html --------------------- FOOTNOTES 1: True Quote - Bill Shankly (Liverpool FC manager): "Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that." 2: Related to Oliver Wood or just his inspiration? 3: From Ben Granger and the Legacy of Icarus by Helmione Nightingranger (Helen) 4: Assuming Jo Rowling remembers that Flint should have left then and does not decide that he is so stupid that he needs to remain at the school for a few extra years! 5: Alicia Spinnet, Angelina Johnson and Katie Bell 6: Assuming that all of the above mentioned players do actually play in OotP 7: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/funny_old_game/newsid_1373000/1373339.s tm 8: Question raised by Heidi Tandy in a recent IM conversation with me 9: From A Surfeit of Curses by Heidi Tandy --------------------- Simon PS: Before anyone asks - Yes I do watch and know about a lot of different sports and hence why I am interested in Quidditch and eagerly awaiting seeing it in the film. PPS: Sorry this is a couple of days late. Seemingly I have far too many things happening at the moment. I think I am done now, but may find some more questions at some stage in the future. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 19 22:49:04 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:49:04 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gokt0+7ik1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21185 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > Hello all, > 4) Harry has a dream about being chased by a dragon. In GoF Harry flies a > broom around a dragon. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. Well, all of Harry's dreams come true in some way or other. This could mean that Harry is a seer. But since nearly the entire Canon is from Harry's POV, it is only his dreams that are directly reported to us. And of course no writer since the days of Homer and Genesis would ever introduce a dream into the narrative that was irrelevant to the larger meaning of the story. - CMC From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 19 22:57:05 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:57:05 -0000 Subject: Funny quote from a JKR transcript In-Reply-To: <017501c0f8e4$9c331800$044e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <9golc1+93ea@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21186 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" wrote: > Several of you have probably seen this before but I just had to laugh at > this question and awnser. [Quote from JKR) Second time I went in there someone had set up an unofficial > fan site where you can be sorted, they have a Sorting Hat, and I was > Hufflepuff. I wasn't that pleased! If anyone's meant to be > Griffyndor, it's me. Although if we take into account the process through which JKR created her stories: the years she spent outlining and creating the "background" for the narrative before she began the actual writing of the series would certainly suggest a very Hufflepuffian work ethic. - CMC (sorted in Ravenclaw - hi Jenny!) From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Jun 19 23:08:03 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:08:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Ron Isn't a Seer In-Reply-To: <002301c0f90c$f80b7c80$9a08073e@chris> References: <9godmk+74bc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010619155945.00e37eb0@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21187 At 11:12 PM 6/19/01 +0100, Chris Dosset wrote: >One of my favourite scenes where Ron sees into the future is in GoF where >Hermiony is wolfing her food and Ron asks if she is going to help her >House Elf movement by making herself throw up. What does Hermiony come up >with? S.P.E.W. of course! :-) This is a good point -- I think Ron is an *unconscious* Seer, so the moments when his "Seer-ness" comes out are not when he's consciously making a prediction or judgement, but when he's making a "random" statement like a joke. -- Dave From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 23:11:13 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Of Love and War (More) In-Reply-To: <20010619060734.13596.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010619231113.73624.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21188 > Hedwig/Pigwidgeon?? Okay sure why not?? I'll bring the appetizers. :D I'm going into Harry Potter withdrawls waiting for OoTP. Aren't they both girls? Danette --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 19 23:14:48 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:14:48 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - Quidditch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gomd8+82hl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21189 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > Shall Binkly: "Some people believe Quidditch is a matter of life and death, I > am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much > more important than that." [1] [2] > > > Quidditch - The Noble Sport of Warlocks? Excellent summary! JKR writes as lovingly of Quidditch as (say) Stephen Gould or George Will write of baseball, or David Halberstam of basketball. The famous line of the Duke of Wellington: "The battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton." Will the battle of Voldemort II be won on the playing fields of Hogwarts? Consider these two scenes from GoF: "[Harry] swung his leg over the broom and kicked off from the ground. And a second later, something miraculous happened.... As he soared upward, as the wind rushed through his hair, as the crowd's faces became mere flesh-colored pinpnicks below, and the Horntail shrank to the size of a dog, he realized that he had left not only the ground behind, but also his fear. . . . He was back where he belonged.... This was just another Quidditch match, that was all. . . just another Quidditch match, and that Horntail was just another ugly opposing team." (Chapter 21) And later against a dude who make Horntails look cuddly: "Voldemort raised his wand, but this time Harry was ready; with the reflexes born of his Quidditch training, he flung himself sideways onto the ground; he rolled behind the marble headstone of Voldemort s father, and he heard it crack as the curse missed him. "We are not playing hide-and-seek, Harry," said Voldemort's soft, cold voice, drawing nearer, as the Death Eaters laughed. "You cannot hide from me." (Ch. 34) But of course we know that Harry - thanks to Quidditch - can best Voldy in hide-and-seek (and most other games as well). Did Tom Riddle ever fly for Slytherin? - CMC From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 19 23:21:05 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:21:05 -0000 Subject: New Places In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gomp1+beso@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21190 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., James Handley wrote: > > > I've been pondering something JKR said in her latest (?) Newsround > interview, where she says something along the lines of the characters will > be going to some new places, but that people will probably be able to > guess where... > > I had a quick search through the archive, and haven't found any guesses, > so I thought I'd post my thoughts. > > The places that have been particularly mentioned, but not yet visited > are: > The Ministry of Magic > Azkaban > Godric's Hollow > Beauxbatons > Drumstrang > > + any others? Another possibility is the realm of the giants, since Hagrid is making a pilgrimmage to them. My guess is that it will be Azkaban (I'm hoping - I have a great idea for a filk if so) - CMC From simon at hp.inbox.as Tue Jun 19 23:20:38 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:20:38 +0100 Subject: Pigwidgeon and Hedwig In-Reply-To: <20010619231113.73624.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21191 Someone <<>> Question <<>> Nope. Pig is male and Hedwig female (or male if you remember that mistype from me nearly a year ago). In GoF chapter 5 Ron says, 'Ginny named him [Pig].' PS chapter 5, '... a beautiful snowy owl, fast asleep with her head under her wing.' Pigwidgeon -- "... a minute owl, small enough to fit into the palm of his hand, whizzing excitedly around the room like a loose firework." "Oh, look at the weeny owl! Isn't he cute?" Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire by Jo Rowling --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Jun 19 23:38:44 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:38:44 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gonq4+7047@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21192 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > 1) Hermione hugs Ron. Love interest or a friend apologising? A friend apologising. Sometimes it takes something awful outside the friendship to make people realize that what they have been fighting or arguing about is not worth it in the grand scheme of things. Add to that Hermione's obvious stress at having too many classes, and it's not surprising that she shows her emotions more openly. > 2) Hermione stands up to Malfoy over his comments about Hagrid. A > foreshadowing of the SPEW events in GoF? An indicator of why she is in > Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw? See above. This was another incident that pushed her a bit over the edge, and I bet secretly she's been wanting to clout Draco for a long time. And yes to Gryffindor. > 3) Has Hermione got the right idea about Divination? Or is it actually > useful for something? If so what and who will be the one to show its uses? I think that Divination is one of those branches of magic where only a small percentage of the population has any true ability in it. And while I wouldn't quite agree with Ron when he describes Trelawney as a "right old fraud" in the next chapter, her powers do seem to come and go (mostly go - much like my ability to pick winners at the race track!) I think Hermione would have had more patience with a professor who was more down-to-earth and practical. > 4) Harry has a dream about being chased by a dragon. In GoF Harry flies a > broom around a dragon. This means he is a Seer. Discuss. I don't think this is indicative of Seeing ability. He dreamt that the whole Slytherin team was mounted on dragons. I think, rather, that this was one of those anxiety-ridden dreams you have before an important event. > 5) Ron predicts that he will get an owl since Scabbers is no longer around. > This means he is a Seer. Discuss. > Maybe it's really just wishful thinking... Marianne, working diligently on the next two chapter summaries From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 23:42:04 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin, coins, Cho, Ginny and Lily: livered or white? In-Reply-To: <003001c0f8b1$2fbeb0e0$1a90aecb@price> Message-ID: <20010619234204.35358.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21193 The good ship P/H, anyone? (evil chuckling) I actually thought about that once LOL... I"m serious..it doesn't seem very likely..but who knows? I was thinking about it yesterday...I think that Percy might end up throwing one of the main men in jail (perhaps Sirius). And that Penny will be some sort of device to lure him. And another thing about Percy many people have said that he will not go to the dark side but he might side with Fudge at first at least. Which would mean that he is believing the lies over the truth..while I don't think that Fudge is with Voldemort..yet! I do believe that any time you go along with lies, resisting to believe the truth (that Voldemort is back) then you are aiding the dark side, indirectly at least. Will he stay on the dark side? No, someone like Ron, or even Harry ( he does seem to be very fond of Harry) or both of course will be in danger and then he will see the truth. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 19 23:45:25 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:45:25 -0000 Subject: Lucius & other villains In-Reply-To: <008d01c0f859$3e766c20$8d44873d@cagsdic> Message-ID: <9goo6l+rstk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21194 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Cai Hui" wrote: > Susanna wrote: > > > Slightly OT here. But Iago isn't just an inhuman embodiment of Evil. > There're many interesting aspects of his character and if you want, > you can interpret his reasons for doing the things he does. He is > an experienced soldier from a lower class and the Moor passed > over him to a clearly less competent Cassio; Again OT (but the Bard can never be totally OT) - we really are not shown Cassio as being less competent - we only have Iago's less than reliable word for it. Iago is consistently identified with Hell and demonic powers, and although he gives some reasons for his hatred of Othello, he rarely mentions them more than once (and no one has ever been better at portraying obsessiveness than Shakespeare). > > What do we have from the canon that reveals Lucius' inner > motivations to us? Right now he just looks like one of those > rich and evil aristocrat to me. I'd like to know why he hates > mud-blood so much and why he chooses to follow Voldemort > who is a half-bred. Next to Voldy himself, Lucius strikes me as the most evil individual in the narrative to date. Like Voldemort, he acts with a supreme consciousness of his personal evil, and rejoices in it. I'm reminded of the taunt that the Auschwitz-imprisoned Father Riccardo hurls at Dr. Mengele in Rolf Hochhuth's holocaust tragedy The Deputy: "I have never seen a man more wretched than you, for you *know* what you do..." (That's an allusion to Luke 23:34 for all you Sec Hums out there) - CMC From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 19 23:50:32 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:50:32 -0000 Subject: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships In-Reply-To: <9glti9+qeai@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9goog8+bqgp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21195 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., linman6868 at a... wrote: > Hello all -- > > I checked the schedule and there's no-one posting on this in depth, > so I thought I'd post a few notes and musings on the Weasleys, since > they've been on the listmembers' (and my) mind lately. Your literary analysis is as skillful as your filks (and that's says a lot!) Thanks for sharing! - CMC From niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 20 00:05:12 2001 From: niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk (niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:05:12 -0000 Subject: Where is Fluffy Message-ID: <9gopbo+7cp9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21196 being the proud owner of a cuddly fluffy has got me to wondering yet again where is he now, sorry if it has already been discussed but does anyone know what happened to him after his admirable work in the P.S.? From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 00:25:11 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:25:11 -0000 Subject: Pigwidgeon and Hedwig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9goqh7+5qsh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21197 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > Someone <<>> > > Question <<>> > > > Nope. Pig is male and Hedwig female (or male if you remember that mistype from > me nearly a year ago). > > In GoF chapter 5 Ron says, 'Ginny named him [Pig].' > > PS chapter 5, '... a beautiful snowy owl, fast asleep with her head under her > wing.' > > > > Pigwidgeon Hey couldn't it be a slash/owl SHIP? *Haggridd covers his head and waits for the tomatoes to be thrown* > -- > "... a minute owl, small enough to fit into the palm of his hand, whizzing > excitedly around the room like a loose firework." > "Oh, look at the weeny owl! Isn't he cute?" > Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire by Jo Rowling > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 02:39:17 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 19:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Love Those Weasleys [re: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships] In-Reply-To: <9go3o5+6ckh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010620023917.1236.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21199 However, her worry does tend to show itself in her temper, too, and in her tendency to be impulsive. She actually believed Rita Skeeter's article in Daily Prophet and treated Hermione coolly at best until Harry told her Skeeter was just making up nasty stories. Considering Ron thinks well of Hermione and Harry does too, even the fact that she doesn't know the girl well should not have evoked this sort of a negative reaction. In defense of Molly, who is one of my favorite characters, she does think of Harry as a second son...so the reaction to Hermione was because she was upset with her for hurting her child. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From lrcjestes at earthlink.net Wed Jun 20 02:55:54 2001 From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (lrcjestes at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 02:55:54 -0000 Subject: FANFIC - one liner In-Reply-To: <20010619231113.73624.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gp3bq+h7oq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21200 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > > > > Hedwig/Pigwidgeon?? Okay sure why not?? I'll bring > the appetizers. :D I'm going into Harry Potter > withdrawls waiting for OoTP. > Try fanfic to ease those withdrawls. carole From linman6868 at aol.com Wed Jun 20 03:08:19 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 03:08:19 -0000 Subject: Weasley Addendum (was Re: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships) In-Reply-To: <9goog8+bqgp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gp433+ugel@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21201 Caius wrote: > Your literary analysis is as skillful as your filks (and that's says > a lot!) Thanks for sharing! *goes very red* Thanks for the compliment! Actually, I just can't stop myself, I have to add something regarding the Weasleys as a whole. They may be infamous for their "poverty" -- those who posted to the effect that the Weasleys' impecunious lifestyle doesn't cause them as much suffering as we might think from Malfoy's comments are quite right -- but they are famous for their loyalty in a pinch. Ron ends the Crookshanks War when Hermione is devastated by Hagrid's loss of Buckbeak's hearing (and is it possible he was ready to do so anyway and just wanted a good excuse?). "Christmas is a time for family," F&G insist to Percy at Christmastime. Any Weasley will jump to another Weasley's defence, and none of them, even Percy, is *sorry* to be a Weasley, no matter what it entails. This is why Ron's comment in GoF about Percy's ambition possibly coming before his family comes off as incredibly bitter. I think Ron's pets join in the family loyalty. Scabbers bit Goyle; when Ron is told he's a traitor Animagus by the name of Peter Pettigrew, he can't take it in. Pigwidgeon is a fluffy little git according to Ron, but again, he'd do anything for Ron and like it. Even Ron's wand chooses a perfect time to explode. I think I've done enough damage around this popsicle stand. Lisa I. From dragon_starling at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 03:19:11 2001 From: dragon_starling at yahoo.com (dragon_starling at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 03:19:11 -0000 Subject: Hermione dying? In-Reply-To: <20010618022131.33516.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gp4nf+bmb0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21202 I said it and truly believe it. Not that long ago I went and read a bunch of chat transcripts and Jo did say that none of the trio would die or at least the Harry wouldn't. I will go find the chat transcript and come back when I find it. I do realize that Jo can change her mind about what she hasn't written but she has planned out where the books are heading for an ending so I don't think that she will change something as big as that. Of chorse I might have gone completely mental at which case I apologize for any mistakes I've made. ~Star~ --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > Melanie Brackney wrote: > > > In fanfiction ppl can have whoever they want to die > but in > >the 'real' series J.K. said that none of the trio > would die. > > I think Harry will die in book 7 but even if she had > absolutely no > intention of ever killing off one of the big three she > would have to > be incredibly stupid to publicly say so now with 3 > more books to > come. JKR is not stupid. Conclusion: JKR never said > that. > > I never did say that she did....somebody else said > that. Sorry but it just irritates me when people mis > quote me...sorry > Melanie From catlady at wicca.net Wed Jun 20 03:22:53 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:22:53 -0700 Subject: New Places - DADA Snape - Saving a Life - Grindelwald - Quidditch - Lee Jordan Message-ID: <3B30170D.B37A2F23@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21203 James Handley wrote: > where she says something along the lines of the > characters will be going to some new places, but > that people will probably be able to guess where... I CAN'T guess, but I HOPE they will go to Egypt, where Bill works as a cursebreaker. More foxy Bill. Finally finding out what a cursebreaker does. And I am a BIG fan of Kemet, Ta-wy, Ta-meri (Pharaonic Egypt) and eager to see what JKR does with it. Sara Metz wrote: > but could it possibly be that Snape wants to be the > DADA professor because My own personal theory is that Snape DOESN'T want to be the DADA professor. The students believe that he wants the DADA job because older students told them so, and as an explanation of why he hates all the DADA teachers, but Snape LOVES his Potions, and had reason to dislike each DADA teacher we've seen other than envy of the job. jwh chimed in about: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: >> My conclusion is that james Potter did a favour >> to Remus rather than to old Sevvie, preventing >> him from enterin the Shrieking Shack, because IMO >> he thought that remus, not Severus might have been >> killed. > Although everyone (including Snape, it would seem) > believes Snape has a wizard's debt to James because > of this action (ie James saved Snape's life) - I think that James was doing a favor to Remus, but the favor wasn't saving him from being killed, it was saving him from becoming a murderer. Steve Eccleston wrote: > That then made me think of the comments on the > chocolate frog card in PS stating that Dumbledore > had defeated the dark wizard ? "Grunwald" in 1945. > Given JKR's constant hinting & giving of clues I > tend to look for meanings in most of her statements > & it made me wonder if she was trying to draw any > comparisons or allusions here, given the date. Yes. Enough people have noticed that date that several people on this list are bogged down in the middle of writing fanfic about Dumbledore, Grindelwald, Riddle, and Hitler in the World War. Simon Pigwidgeon quoted: > Quidditch - The Noble Sport of Warlocks? Yet another clue that 'warlock' means something in the Potterverse besides a synonym for 'wizard', and NOT an oathbreaker or other disgraceful person. When I read Book 1, I assumed that Lee Jordan was a white boy with dreadlocks. Then somewhere it book 4 it mentioned that Lee Jordan is black, and I felt extremely stupid (unless, of course, I only DREAMED that somewhere in GoF says that Lee is black, in which case I feel even stupider). I may have mentioned that my old boss was constantly making me write ASS U ME on his whiteboard -- to the point that he just had to look meaningfully at the whiteboard and I would go and write it -- but all my assumptions at work turned out to be RIGHT, not like in the Potterverse. Anyway, I'm glad that JKR didn't do the cliche where the one black girl and the one black boy are paired off for the dance. -- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From JamiDeise at aol.com Wed Jun 20 03:38:09 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:38:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Ron Isn't a Seer Message-ID: <6a.f95c5ff.286174a1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21204 In a message dated 6/19/2001 7:09:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes: << At 11:12 PM 6/19/01 +0100, Chris Dosset wrote: >One of my favourite scenes where Ron sees into the future is in GoF where >Hermiony is wolfing her food and Ron asks if she is going to help her >House Elf movement by making herself throw up. What does Hermiony come up >with? S.P.E.W. of course! :-) This is a good point -- I think Ron is an *unconscious* Seer, so the moments when his "Seer-ness" comes out are not when he's consciously making a prediction or judgement, but when he's making a "random" statement like a joke. >> Or perhaps Ron's talent isn't that he's seeing the future, but by putting these thoughts out in the universe, he's actually causing them to occur. Jami From tmayor at mediaone.net Wed Jun 20 03:39:44 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 03:39:44 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's past In-Reply-To: <9goiib+l1cr@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gp5u0+b7u0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21205 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eccleston at c... wrote: My 7 year old daughter has been very struck by, in effect, the moral > tone of the books. All this talk about making choices forced me to give examples to my > daughter and I found myself talking about resistance in Germany and > across Europe to facism in the 30's and then in WW II. I wonder if anyone else has any views about parallels with > resistance to oppresive states. Hi, Steve, great post, but, er, I think we're not allowed to talk about WWII and HP due to past unpleasantness on the list (which predates me as well as you). I can certainly see why it would raise people's hackles. But generically speaking, yes, I think it's not hard to imagine Dumbledore as a resistance fighter in his day, and given what we've seen of JKR's economy as a writer, I can easily imagine that, having been mentioned so specifically, Grunwald and Dumbledore's past heroics in general will resurface later. ~Rosmerta, who also read HP to her 7-yr-old and now understands a little better why that's legally considered "the age of reason." From JenniferABacker at cs.com Wed Jun 20 03:57:11 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:57:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Places - DADA Snape - Saving a Life - Grindelwald - Q... Message-ID: <3a.16a9e34a.28617917@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21206 In a message dated 6/19/01 10:34:23 PM Central Daylight Time, catlady at wicca.net writes: << >> My conclusion is that james Potter did a favour >> to Remus rather than to old Sevvie, preventing >> him from enterin the Shrieking Shack, because IMO >> he thought that remus, not Severus might have been >> killed. > Although everyone (including Snape, it would seem) > believes Snape has a wizard's debt to James because > of this action (ie James saved Snape's life) - >> OK I just thought of something. Let's say Snape did feel he owed James. Since James is gone, he can't save his life or anything to repay the debt exactly. Hoever, Snape saved Harry in the first book. That'd be repayment right? I'm sure if James was still alive he'd be VERY thankful that. Anyone agree? If you reply I'd rather you not mention how Snape saves Harry exactly. It's been a year since I read it and I'm re-reading it now. [I just got my book Saturday and I'm almost done though.] j*Black I may love werewolves <3 <3 but a big black dog will <3 <3 always have my heart <3 <3 Please join my weekly *NSYNC zine: Now & Forever Get cash the fun and easy way: RefRewards If you join these zines please put JenniferABacker referred ya! It'd mean a LOT:) Packed *NSYNC zine: *NSYNC Academy Learn about a great new singer: Official Gina Marie Zine Daily *NSYNC news & pics; short loading: 'nsync fantasy mad cow season - freebies behind the music - graphics From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 04:18:32 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Of Love and War (More) In-Reply-To: <20010619231113.73624.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010620041832.2755.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21207 --- Melanie Brackney wrote: > --- I wrote: > > > >Hedwig/Pigwidgeon?? Okay sure why not?? I'll bring > >the appetizers. :D I'm going into Harry Potter > >withdrawls waiting for OoTP. > > ---Melanie wrote > Aren't they both girls? > > >From what I've seen no. Pig is male, at least no one has refered to Pig as a female owl. Danette __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 04:36:04 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] FANFIC - one liner In-Reply-To: <9gp3bq+h7oq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010620043604.86602.qmail@web14406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21208 --- lrcjestes at earthlink.net wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hedwig/Pigwidgeon?? Okay sure why not?? I'll > bring > > the appetizers. :D I'm going into Harry Potter > > withdrawls waiting for OoTP. > > > > Try fanfic to ease those withdrawls. > > carole > > I'm running out of fanfic to read though. :D I read too fast (I read GoF TWICE the day I got it) But I'm getting the Brit edition of the books so that should help. I hope. :D Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From joym999 at aol.com Wed Jun 20 06:58:46 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 06:58:46 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #6 Message-ID: <9gphj6+9kn6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21209 I have been out of town, so the HP4GU Contest is a little behind schedule. The deadline for entering was a few hours ago, but if you still want to enter, you can do so until around noon EST Wednesday June 20, since I wont get around to doing anything until then. Details on this particular contest can be found in message #20409, or in the Files section in the HP4GU Contest folder. --Joywitch From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 20 07:42:12 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 08:42:12 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasley Addendum (was Re: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships) In-Reply-To: <9gp433+ugel@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0f95c$8500bf20$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 21210 The other point about the Weasleys is their incredible kindness. The first time we see a Weasley (Molly) she's helping out a lost little new boy. He later turns out to be the famous Harry Potter, but what she responds to is "new-on his own - lost- what can I do to make him feel better?". Then she tells her offspring in no uncertain terms not to goggle at him. It goes on through the series. Fred and George respond with tact and imagination to Harry's isolation in Co S ("Seriously evil wizard coming through") and to his exclusion from the Hogsmeade trips in PoA. Charlie unhesitatingly falls in with Ron's plans for getting rid of Norbert. Bill takes a couple of days off from his no doubt high powered job to come and lend moral support at the Triwizard final. Arthur is incredulous at how appalling the Dursleys behave toward Harry (so is Molly, but she seems to work on the principle that as she can't say anything good she doesn't say anything). In fact, one of the most convincing arguments for the "Lucius Malfoy is irremediably evil" school of thought (to which I subscribe) is that Arthur Weasley unhestitatingly starts a fight with him on sight. When someone who has been trying for so long to see the good in everyone does that, I know whose side I'm on. However, apropos of Weasleys and the coming conflict, I do hope that JKR hasn't read Gone With The Wind. Which, to remind you, features the Tarleton family. Lots of boys - including twins of Scarlett's age who dance with her, flirt with her and make her laugh - devoted dishevelled mother who runs the family farm and patches up her madcap sons hurts - all red heads - unsuspected hopeless crush involving one Tarleton boy.....and Gettysburg. Susan From Allyse at my-deja.com Wed Jun 20 07:47:18 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 07:47:18 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gpke6+pa6t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21211 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > Ron and Harry find out that Buckbeak is up for the chop. > Hermione breaks down and hugs Ron. It suddenly occurs to me that there may be a more cogent reason why Hermione suddenly broke down at this point. All along, she's been (hurtfully) dismissive of Ron's loss of Scabbers; now, when Ron offers to help "save" Buckbeak, she bursts into tears and apologizes. Perhaps one really does have to do with the other. Seeing Hagrid's tear-stained note might very well have driven home the anguish of losing a pet, so that Hermione now understands exactly why Ron is so upset. Could that be why she is suddenly "really, really sorry" about Scabbers? Just a thought. :) Allyse From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Jun 20 07:59:51 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 07:59:51 -0000 Subject: Ron's jealousy, Lucius the villain again, Percy&Fudge (no SHIP!!) Message-ID: <9gpl5n+tdji@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21212 Melanie wrote: "In defense of Molly, who is one of my favorite characters, she does think of Harry as a second son...so the reaction to Hermione was because she was upset with her for hurting her child." Good point, I agree with you that Molly is some kind of a mother- archetype, who just can't resist giving love- especially to Harry whom she knows to have been deprived of love until he was 11. She would defend him, as she would do with all her children, like a lioness, if anybody tried to hurt him. This is one more thing for Ron to accept: Not only does he always have to compete with his brothers, but there is one more to share his mother's love with. Considering this and the way he copes with it, I'd judge him very mature for his age. Caius Marcius wrote: "Next to Voldy himself, Lucius strikes me as the most evil individual in the narrative to date. Like Voldemort, he acts with a supreme consciousness of his personal evil, and rejoices in it." Yep, certainly right, Caius Marcius! I'm sure you've read your Shakespeare as well as I did my canonic authors of german language, so I won't certainly compete with you in that field. It was just that Lucius reminded me so much of him, being evil not without, but beyond reason. There's a reason for Jago's hating Cassio and Othello, but revenge could have stopped at a certain point. No need to cross the border between revenge and evil for evil's sake. Problem is, it will be difficult to find any motivation or explanation for *that* kind of character which IMO is the most purely fictional- you hardly come across such persons in real life. (And please nobody quote Hitler to me- he's just a case of insane parvenu, whereas Lucius, IMHO, is everything but insane)And he has to be one of Voldy's closest DEs, otherwise how could we explain V. barely mentions that Lucius has not been searching for him more intensely? Could Lucius be Voldie's (illegitimate) son, result of a short affair Lucius' mother had with him?? He's fair-haired and Riddle/Voldie was dark, but both of them are very often described as *pale*. Hmmmm, I have to meditate on that! But wouldn't refuse everybody's help. Melanie wrote: "I think that Percy might end up throwing one of the main men in jail (perhaps Sirius). And that Penny will be some sort of device to lure him. And another thing about Percy many people have said that he will not go to the dark side but he might side with Fudge at first at least. Which would mean that he is believing the lies over the truth..while I don't think that Fudge is with Voldemort..yet!" Personally, I think that Percy is of average intelligence which, combined with hyper- obedience may lead to devastating results (I hate to bring up the nazi topic, but I'll just say that there are a lot of parallels). Percy will never (or won't for a very long time) break rules, for he doesn't believe in anything but rules and would go bonkers if there weren't any. IMHO, he's the most immature of all, equaled only by my own darling Gilderoy Lockhart. And maybe by Fudge, who is less in love with rules than with power and titles and being MoM. Fudge is (and believe me, I'm working for a ministry and it consists mostly of Fudges) loyal as long as it suits him; if his loyalty might get him into trouble, he lets people down- that's certainly what he will do with Dumbledore. I think, he'll be with V. before long. Susanna From taivimbra at interlap.com.ar Wed Jun 20 10:15:36 2001 From: taivimbra at interlap.com.ar (taivimbra at interlap.com.ar) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:15:36 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <9gpt48+a8ir@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21213 Hi! A new place that hasn't been mentioned yet is Dervish and Banges. I think it must be quite interesting and useful for Harry and co. in the future (isn't it the shop with items like Sneakoscopes and such? sorry if I'm wrong) I think that it's also easier to believe that they'll go to the only shop in Hogsmeade that they haven't visited yet than picture them in Azkaban (not that I would't like to see it!! ) And now that they're growing up maybe they'd like to visit the Hog's Head, have something stronger than butterbeer, and meet some "funny folk" like Hagrid's card players... well, I know you Americans cannot drink till 21, but in GB? and they could go just to take a look, I suppose ;) or to escape from all those teachers and nosy first years when they have a date... or just for the fun. Besos Violeta From taivimbra at interlap.com.ar Wed Jun 20 10:17:57 2001 From: taivimbra at interlap.com.ar (taivimbra at interlap.com.ar) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:17:57 -0000 Subject: New places Message-ID: <9gpt8l+moa0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21214 First of all sorry for posting without subject... Hi! A new place that hasn't been mentioned yet is Dervish and Banges. I think it must be quite interesting and useful for Harry and co. in the future (isn't it the shop with items like Sneakoscopes and such? sorry if I'm wrong) I think that it's also easier to believe that they'll go to the only shop in Hogsmeade that they haven't visited yet than picture them in Azkaban (not that I would't like to see it!! ) And now that they're growing up maybe they'd like to visit the Hog's Head, have something stronger than butterbeer, and meet some "funny folk" like Hagrid's card players... well, I know you Americans cannot drink till 21, but in GB? and they could go just to take a look, I suppose ;) or to escape from all those teachers and nosy first years when they have a date... or just for the fun. Besos Violeta From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Jun 20 10:58:51 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:58:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Places In-Reply-To: <9gpt48+a8ir@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010620105851.76694.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21215 I think, too, that Azkaban might be a bit far-fetched. Let's hope nobody goes there!!! But maybe Harry might have to stay a little longer at the Dursleys': I remember distinctly to have read a newspaper clip where JKR said that some unexpected things were going to happen with them (I just tried desperately to find it, but couldn't.) Would be interesting on whose side the Dursleys would be, if Voldemort tried to attack Harry there. --- taivimbra at interlap.com.ar ha scritto:
Hi!
A new place that hasn't been mentioned yet is Dervish and Banges. I
think it must be quite interesting and useful for Harry and co. in
the future (isn't it the shop with items like Sneakoscopes and such?
sorry if I'm wrong)
I think that it's also easier to believe that they'll go to the only
shop in Hogsmeade that they haven't visited yet than picture them in
Azkaban (not that I would't like to see it!! )

And now that they're growing up maybe they'd like to visit the Hog's
Head, have something stronger than butterbeer, and meet some "funny
folk" like Hagrid's card players... well, I know you Americans cannot
drink till 21, but in GB? and they could go just to take a look, I
suppose ;) or to escape from all those teachers and nosy first years
when they have a date... or just for the fun.

Besos
Violeta
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jun 20 14:08:05 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:08:05 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: Historical Discussions (was Dumbledore's past) References: <9gp5u0+b7u0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B30AE45.E74FFA9F@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21216 Hi Rosmerta wrote: > > great post, but, er, I think we're not allowed to talk about WWII and > HP due to past unpleasantness on the list (which predates me as well > as you). Actually, a point of clarification. Discussion of historical parallels is perfectly fine, including historical parallels to WWII in the HP series (there are many IMO!). BUT, please avoid discussion of the Holocaust specifically. The banned discussions on this list fall into two categories: (1) the Holocaust, and (2) politics (especially current US & UK politics), not including speculation about Wizarding World politics. Penny The Moderator Team From reanna20 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 14:21:47 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:21:47 -0000 Subject: Intro and Lucius may not be evil In-Reply-To: <9gh1ko+d5se@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gqbhr+588t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21217 Ack, this is quite late, but I had some thoughts that just recently blossomed. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "DM" wrote: > Lucius may be a complete jerk, but siding with Voldemort seems like > a very, very, very risky venture on his part, especially > considering his family is so old (this is all IMHO of course). > Plus, we know that Dark Lords have risen and been defeated in > recent history before Voldemort ("Dumbledore is particularly famous > for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945..." - HP and > the SS, Ch6). Given that I believe that Lucius must be around the > same age as Arthur Weasley, it's not unlikely that he was alive > during that time. Why risk getting involved in something that has > already failed once? Two explanations for this. 1) He doesn't believe that it will fail this time. He thinks that Voldie will learn from his mistakes. However, I don't see this as the probable explanation. I rather think it's 2) Lucius is planning on taking over sometime. Kinda let Voldemort start the whole World Domination thing, kill him, and take hold of the reins. Of course, whether or not he'll succeed in defeating Voldemort is an entirely other issue. Why didn't Lucius try and start his own plan for World Domination? Er, I don't know. I'll have to think of why. But I do believe that Lucius is after the same thing as Voldemort, power, power, and more power. > If he was a loyal and happy Death Eater, why send his son away from > the campsite? Why not just let him sit in the tent or even join > in? Why run away from the Dark Mark? His son goes to Hogwarts. In a sense, Draco is his prescence there. He doesn't want his son thrown out or expelled. So Draco wouldn't be allowed to participate due to appearences. Or maybe an age thing? Maybe the Death Eaters need to be a certain age to join in? Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm grasping at straws. > Another thing that needs mentioning is his large donations to St. > Mungos. It seems strange to me for JKR to mention that > specifically, unless it had some kind of meaning. It's his way to stay in "nice" with the Ministry. To have a voice in what goes on. It also ties in with a pet theory of mine. Lucius gives large donations to St. Mungos which means that he has a sort of say there. After all, they want to keep the person giving them money happy. I've always thought the worst torture would be to be sane but everyone else think you are *insane*. What if the Longbottoms are perfectly fine mentally but have been cursed to act crazy? The donations could be a way for Lucius to keep from anyone discovering the truth about them and helping them. But this theory is a lot of whatifs and fanciful imagining on my part. > Also, the very fact the he was found innocent in his connections > with Voldemort by the Ministry leaves one wondering - surely they > used some kind of truth potion on the defendants. Actually, this isn't so sure. Sirius wasn't given any truth potion when he was sentenced. Also I wouldn't be surprised if someone has developed a spell/potion that can overcome the effects of Veritaserum. It's certainly possible. > Finally, the most convincing part about this is how much Voldemort > supporters seem to dislike Draco. Scabbers (Peter) attacked Draco > on the train to Hogwarts in the first book; Mad-Eye Moody (or > rather Crouch) turned him into a ferret and slammed him around the > hallway. Hrm. Interesting. I'll have to think more on these. > Also, one of the biggest non-supporters of Voldemort, Severus > Snape, really, really seems to like Draco. Several other explanations for this. One is that Snape knows that Draco is reporting back to his father on what happens at Hogwarts and doesn't want him to say something or wants a favorable report. Second, Snape thinks that Draco isn't cozy with his father and wants to bring him over to Dumbledore's side. Of course, all of this is speculation. We really don't know what Lucius/Draco/Snape is thinking. But I have the tendency to lean towards that Lucius does not have Dumbledore's ideology. I think that Lucius' possible death by Voldemort or succession of Voldemort would have a fascinating effect on Draco. ~Amber From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 20 15:42:56 2001 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:42:56 -0000 Subject: I'm wrong Message-ID: <9gqga0+33hj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21218 After thinking about it some more I've come to the conclusion that I'm wrong, nobody will die in the next book and I'll tell you why. Everybody is certain somebody will die but Rowling ALWAYS surprises us. Nobody can die on the last page of the book because if there has been no death by the time we read the second to the last page we will know somebody must die on the last page and so we will not be the slightest bit surprised, thus nobody will die on that page. What a surprise! In the same way after we have read the third to the last page we will be certain that nobody can die on the second to the last page, using the same reasoning we can work our way all the way back to page 1. Thus we can be absolutely positively 100% certain that nobody will die in the next book; and if there is a death on page 117 we will be very surprised. From indigo at indigosky.net Wed Jun 20 17:11:47 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:11:47 -0000 Subject: Pigwidgeon and Hedwig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gqlgj+mis4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21219 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" wrote: > Someone <<>> > > Question <<>> > > > Nope. Pig is male and Hedwig female (or male if you remember that mistype from > me nearly a year ago). > > In GoF chapter 5 Ron says, 'Ginny named him [Pig].' > > PS chapter 5, '... a beautiful snowy owl, fast asleep with her head under her > wing.' > > > *chuckle* Somehow, I believe Pigwidgeon is going to have to do a lot of growing up both emotionally and physically before Hedwig thinks of him as anything more than a little hyper git of an owlet. Indigo From indigo at indigosky.net Wed Jun 20 17:15:17 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:15:17 -0000 Subject: Love Those Weasleys [re: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships] In-Reply-To: <20010620023917.1236.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gqln5+mqvt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21220 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > However, her worry does tend to show itself in her > temper, too, and > in her tendency to be impulsive. She actually > believed Rita > Skeeter's article in Daily Prophet and treated > Hermione coolly at > best until Harry told her Skeeter was just making up > nasty stories. > Considering Ron thinks well of Hermione and Harry does > too, even the > fact that she doesn't know the girl well should not > have evoked this > sort of a negative reaction. > > In defense of Molly, who is one of my favorite > characters, she does think of Harry as a second > son...so the reaction to Hermione was because she was > upset with her for hurting her child. > > > Molly's one of my favourites too, which is why it bothers me so much. Hermione is Ron and Harry's best friend. It just sticks in my craw that she could think so poorly of the girl her son and "son" think so well of. Somehow I don't see Harry or Ron being still-tongued if someone had bothered them in school...to say nothing of Gred and Forge. I am sure the whole house knows that Malfoy is not beloved of Harry/Ron, so it strikes me as weird that Molly doesn't know that Hermione's okay with Ron/Harry, enough to dismiss Skeeter's article as a fat load of codswallop. Indigo From catz109 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 20 17:17:15 2001 From: catz109 at hotmail.com (catz109 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:17:15 -0000 Subject: New Places In-Reply-To: <20010620105851.76694.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9gqlqr+8394@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21221 ---Susanne Schmid wrote: > I think, too, that Azkaban might be a bit far-fetched. > Let's hope nobody goes there!!! > But maybe Harry might have to stay a little longer at > the Dursleys': I remember distinctly to have read a > newspaper clip where JKR said that some unexpected > things were going to happen with them (I just tried > desperately to find it, but couldn't.) Would be > interesting on whose side the Dursleys would be, if > Voldemort tried to attack Harry there. I thought that maybe it could be Godric's Hollow? Personally, I hope that the Dursley's all turn into termites :) then Harry could live with the lovable Weasleys. Or not...Ok, I have have also read somewhere that Harry uses magic against the Dursley's. I hope so, It's about time they had a shock. Rebekah From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jun 20 17:31:23 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:31:23 -0000 Subject: Love Those Weasleys [re: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships] In-Reply-To: <9gqln5+mqvt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gqmlb+vsno@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21222 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > However, her worry does tend to show itself in her > > temper, too, and > > in her tendency to be impulsive. She actually > > believed Rita > > Skeeter's article in Daily Prophet and treated > > Hermione coolly <> > > > > Molly's one of my favourites too, which is why it bothers me so > much. <> strikes me as weird that Molly doesn't know that > Hermione's okay with Ron/Harry, enough to dismiss Skeeter's article > as a fat load of codswallop. It dawned on me finally: it's not that Molly doesn't know Hermione's okay. It's just that Molly's one of those people who believes *everything* she reads. Remember in CoS, she wanted the twins to look up how to denome the garden in Lockhart's books, even though they'd obviously been doing it all their lives. We've been discussing the changes in Ron, Molly, Percy and the Twins as though *they* went considerably darker, or at least more complex in GoF, but maybe that's not the way to look at it. Maybe the point is that *Harry* is growing up, and inclined to view people, including his friends, a bit more critically. Pippin From saitaina at wizzards.net Wed Jun 20 17:37:33 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:37:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Intro and Lucius may not be evil References: <9gh1ko+d5se@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007601c0f9af$b0f7d980$0c4e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 21223 > Another thing that needs mentioning is his large donations to St. > Mungos. It seems strange to me for JKR to mention that specifically, > unless it had some kind of meaning. In the history of the world many rich, and evil people have given donations to worthy causes. It's best not to read too much into this as it's Lucius's way of keeping up a good front. Remember no one belive's he's a death eater, especially not Fudge. So a very large donation to St. Mungo's would help promote the image he wants people to see. Sort of, "See I'm doing a good thing by donating a million Galleons to this hospital, I couldn't possibly be an evil Death Eater who goes around torturing muggles in my spare time," You'd be amazed how often this trick actually works in real life, and probably even works easier with Fudge around. Also, the very fact the he was > found innocent in his connections with Voldemort by the Ministry > leaves one wondering - surely they used some kind of truth potion on > the defendants. Most likely not, but does that matter? This is LUCIUS MALFOY we're talking about. Latest son of the richest and currently most powerful wizzading family around (or at least mentioned at the moment). No one wants to belive that a child of a long standing family with money is really and evil bastard. It's proven time an again in RL and why shouldn't that hold in the wizzarding world? We dont' like to remind ourselves that those we admire and that are famous have flaws, but they do. So when Lucius said he was under the Imperious Curse, they wanted to belive him with all their hearts so he probably didn't have much of a trial. > Finally, the most convincing part about this is how much Voldemort > supporters seem to dislike Draco. Scabbers (Peter) attacked Draco on > the train to Hogwarts in the first book; Mad-Eye Moody (or rather > Crouch) turned him into a ferret and slammed him around the hallway. We have to remember, when using this evidence, both of these character were trying to play at being someone else. Peter was pretending to be a loyal wizzarding pet, which is often a protector of it's master as well as being a letter carrier or a magic enhancer and friend. So when Peter bit GOYLE's finger, he decided it was time to actually do something to help out his Master and keep up appearances. His behavior probably wouldn't have been stood for with a family less kind hearted and he most likely would have been taken back to the sewer he had been found in for not doing anything. But luckily he was taken in by the Weasleys. His behavior on the train was sort of, inssuring he would be kept by Ron. As for Crouch, he was playing a slightly crazed auror, what better form of punishment could you think of for the child of a DE then smacking him around a bit? Also, Draco attacked when Harry's back was turned and Crouch, who is as nobel as his father when it comes down to it, REALLY diddn't like that idea, it was a wimpy choice of action. To sum up what my personal beliefs are, I think Lucius is quite happy on the dark side and not about to switch. Despite my waving of Peter and Lucius support signs, I believe he is as un-redeemable as Voldemort himself and shall morn his death in coming books, but this is of course, my humble opinion. As for what made Lucius as dark as he is...I believe while he was quite young (late teens early 20's) He was most likely seduced to the side of Dark by Voldemort offering him what he wanted most, more power. Like Peter, Lucius wants to be protected by the biggest bully on the playground. Why choose the other side when this snakey looking man can kill with two words? I don't think though, that Lucius has plans as anything more then Voldemort's Number one DE. He hasn't exampled the power needed nor gave any indication he was disgusted with his position, save GoF when it was mentioned he never looked for Voldie. While I do believe Lucius wanted to be the big bad, he knows he can't do it with Voldemort around, hence his not looking for him. If you want to be the biggest kid on the block, why go looking for someone whom you know can squash you like bug. I do believe Lucius held control of the remaining free Death Eaters while the dark lord was gone, (most likely the World Cup fiasco was his idea), but when Voldemort returned I do believe he lost his position and will spend more of his energies on regaining his master's good graces then trying to over throw him. As for Draco, it's too soon to be sure, but he's still a child. While he has his father's love of power and hatred of all things muggle and mudblood in him, he's a different person, free to make his own choices. While he most likely won't suddenly choose the side of light (or ever really choose it) he may not become a DE. For Draco the world is still all cotton candy and plated in gold. He had yet to experience how harsh the battle between good and evil really is. He's only heard it through his father whom probably told how GLORIOUS the dark side is and how the side of right is filled with stupid idiots who would rather commit suicide (facing Voldemort) then join the side that they should. His second meeting with Harry most likely re-enforced this believe and it would take a great deal to un-do 14 years of parental teachings. But that day will come when Draco has to choose between his father, and what is good, and while Draco may choose his father (what child wouldn't really, it's a very hard thing to go against your parents), there's always a chance he chooses to stand for what be believes in, and that just might mean the safety of the wizzarding world and the muggle one. No one can be certain what he will choose, because, as I said before, he is a child. This is a moment of changing ideals and growing up. What he, (or Harry, or Ron, or Hermione) believe now, probably won't be what they believe in book Seven. And Snape is not wavering in loyalty, he's a spy with too many memories of the Dark Side and that's all I'm saying on that. From eccleston at clara.co.uk Wed Jun 20 17:46:14 2001 From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:46:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's past In-Reply-To: <9gp5u0+b7u0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gqnh6+tcnk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21224 > Hi, Steve, > > great post, but, er, I think we're not allowed to talk about WWII and > HP due to past unpleasantness on the list (which predates me as well > as you). I can certainly see why it would raise people's hackles. But > generically speaking, yes, I think it's not hard to imagine > Dumbledore as a resistance fighter in his day, and given what we've > seen of JKR's economy as a writer, I can easily imagine that, having > been mentioned so specifically, Grunwald and Dumbledore's past > heroics in general will resurface later. > > ~Rosmerta, who also read HP to her 7-yr-old and now understands a > little better why that's legally considered "the age of reason." Sorry! I hope no one was offended. Steve From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jun 20 17:55:20 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:55:20 -0000 Subject: Pigwidgeon and Hedwig In-Reply-To: <9gqlgj+mis4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gqo28+6h41@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21225 You know, it's funny that my comment started a bit of discussion on the romance of owls because I was just kidding. I really just love the ongoing shipper debate (even though I know I am right about R/H ). However, since we are on the subject of owls, let's not rule out the possibility of Hedwig falling madly in love with Draco's eagle owl... --jenny from ravenclaw, who'd like to see more development of Hedwig in general*********************************************************** From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 20 18:04:54 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:04:54 -0000 Subject: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <9gg2s7+9nr0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gqok6+7h52@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21226 (Okay, so I'm like 200 messages behind -- that's the way I do things, leave me alone.) Also, "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" is JKR's homage to Tolkien. Bilbo Baggins claims to have coined the phrase at the end of _The Hobbit_. Stephanie --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Sarah Rose wrote: > > I am aware of the fact that Hogwart's motto is "Draco > > dormiens nunquam titillandus" which means Never Trust > > a Sleeping Dragon (or something to that extent. I've > > been racking my brain and rereading all my HP books, > > but for the life of me I cannot find where it's > > originally stated. I must be skipping over it's > > placement. Could somebody please point me to where > > it's orginally stated, book and chapter. Thanks soo > > much! > > > > Sarah > > > It actually means "Never tickle a sleeping dragon", and it is only > found on the front endpapers of each book, not in the text. > > Haggridd From indigo at indigosky.net Wed Jun 20 18:37:20 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:37:20 -0000 Subject: Pigwidgeon and Hedwig In-Reply-To: <9gqo28+6h41@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gqqh0+cshu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21227 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > You know, it's funny that my comment started a bit of discussion on > the romance of owls because I was just kidding. I really just love > the ongoing shipper debate (even though I know I am right about R/H > ). However, since we are on the subject of owls, let's not rule > out the possibility of Hedwig falling madly in love with Draco's > eagle owl... > > --jenny from ravenclaw, who'd like to see more development of Hedwig > in general *********************************************************** Draco's Owl and Harry's Owl. Oh, there's an interesting sequence of events waiting to happen. And I can see Pigwidgeon, the rejected suitor, finally growing up with intent to earn the Snowy Owl's love. This is all very silly. Indigo From indigo at indigosky.net Wed Jun 20 18:43:31 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:43:31 -0000 Subject: Love Those Weasleys [re: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships] In-Reply-To: <9gqmlb+vsno@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gqqsk+aske@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21228 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > > However, her worry does tend to show itself in her > > > temper, too, and > > > in her tendency to be impulsive. She actually > > > believed Rita > > > Skeeter's article in Daily Prophet and treated > > > Hermione coolly <> > > > > > > Molly's one of my favourites too, which is why it bothers me so > > much. > > <> strikes me as weird that Molly doesn't know that > > Hermione's okay with Ron/Harry, enough to dismiss Skeeter's article > > as a fat load of codswallop. > > It dawned on me finally: it's not that Molly doesn't know > Hermione's okay. It's just that Molly's one of those people who > believes *everything* she reads. Remember in CoS, she wanted the twins to look up how to denome the garden in Lockhart's books, even though they'd obviously been doing it all their lives. This is very true, and I was rather incensed that the usually level- headed Molly and the alarmingly frequently level-headed Hermione were both taken in by Lockhart's schtick...just as I was that Molly believed Skeeter. My guess on Lockhart is that he actually has a smidge of writing talent, and that he does have some clue about magic -- but nothing of as grand a scope as he'd want people to believe. He probably just didn't believe that de-gnoming a garden would get him the glamour and fame he desired. > We've been discussing the changes in Ron, Molly, Percy and the > Twins as though *they* went considerably darker, or at least more > complex in GoF, but maybe that's not the way to look at it. Maybe the > point is that *Harry* is growing up, and inclined to view people, > including his friends, a bit more critically. > > Pippin Very good thought, Pippin. I hadn't considered that. But on the other hand, I think the Weasleys have been through a good bit of stuff that would darken anyone. The Ginny crisis in CoS. Arthur's crisii at work with Moody and the Dark Mark at the Quidditch final...not to mention his failure to keep his temper around Lucius Malfoy. Percy's blind loyalty to a boss who turned out to have been acting under an unforgivable curse. The Twins trusting a MoM official and getting swindled out of their life savings. Charlie's dangerous dragon job. Bill's solemn reaction to Voldemort's return. It's possible it's more a combination of the two. Harry is spending more time around the Weasleys than just about anyone else in the wizarding world...but their proximity to him has resulted in a lot of fallout hitting them, IMHO. Indigo From bohners at pobox.com Wed Jun 20 18:52:27 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:52:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwart's Motto, help! References: <9gqok6+7h52@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <008401c0f9ba$4bb59ac0$6d39acce@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 21229 > Also, "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" is JKR's homage to Tolkien. > Bilbo Baggins claims to have coined the phrase at the end of _The > Hobbit_. Er... no. Bilbo's motto is "Never laugh at live dragons". Not the same at all. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From indigo at indigosky.net Wed Jun 20 18:56:38 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:56:38 -0000 Subject: FILK/SHIP Hedwig Love Message-ID: <9gqrl6+vto@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21230 All this discussion of Hedwig and the "Love those Weasleys!" thread have combined in my brain and produced a filk. This is dedicated to Drea, Caius Marcus, and Pippin, and especially to Jenny from Ravenclaw for starting the Hedwig-shipper thread. Hedwig, Love [to the tune of "Muskrat Love" by The Captain and Tenille] ERROL, in a wheezy, soft voice Hedwig, Hedwig, candlelight Brings out your eyes in the dark of the night You're simply lovely Just turtle-dovely Young Pigwidgeon and that Eagle Owl Are just a pair of fledglings on the prowl I can't blame them. Your love might tame them. CHORUS I remember your coo and your kind heart When I nearly fell apart Your wings are like the heavens above Oh, my Hedwig Love.... I'll bring you rats and plump little mice. If you'll only say that you'll be so nice Love is brewing... Want your billin' and cooin'. Let me tickle your fancy Preen your feathers so white Wrap you in my wings All through the night and all weather. We'll hunt together. CHORUS Indigo From dosser at btinternet.com Wed Jun 20 19:00:21 2001 From: dosser at btinternet.com (Chris Dosset) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:00:21 +0100 Subject: Minor characters Message-ID: <002c01c0f9bb$43840520$c8d97ad5@chris> No: HPFGUIDX 21231 Hi all! I was just wondering if anybody had any favourite "minor" characters in the books? My personal fave is Archie, the old wizard at the quidditch world cup who refuses to change out of his flowery dress into a pair of trousers saying "I like a healthy breeze round my privates, thanks". It was not only Hermiony who giggled uncontrollably at this. cheers Chris (who likes frivolous subjects as well as the deep discussions) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Jun 20 19:36:00 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:36:00 -0700 Subject: Ron hungry for mother-love and the Malfoys related to V? (was: Ron's jealousy, Lucius the villain again, Percy&Fudge) In-Reply-To: <9gpl5n+tdji@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010620123000.00dd5640@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21232 At 07:59 AM 6/20/01 +0000, pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it wrote: >This is one more thing for Ron to accept: Not only does he always >have to compete with his brothers, but there is one more to share his >mother's love with. >Considering this and the way he copes with it, I'd judge him very >mature for his age. It might help if she occasionally showed Ron the kind of affection she shows Harry. >V. barely mentions that Lucius has not >been searching for him more intensely? Could Lucius be Voldie's >(illegitimate) son, result of a short affair Lucius' mother had with >him?? He's fair-haired and Riddle/Voldie was dark, but both of them >are very often described as *pale*. Hmmmm, I have to meditate on >that! But wouldn't refuse everybody's help. Interesting idea -- The only hitch I see is that this would make Draco the Heir of Slytherin. -- Dave From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jun 20 20:39:26 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:39:26 -0000 Subject: Minor characters In-Reply-To: <002c01c0f9bb$43840520$c8d97ad5@chris> Message-ID: <9gr1lu+7hju@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21233 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Chris Dosset" wrote: > Hi all! > > I was just wondering if anybody had any favourite "minor" characters in the books?> Oh, my favorite minor character is definitely Hedwig. Her attitude reminds me of my cat. If she was my owl, I'd spoil her rotten. I must also add that the scene with old Archie and his "privates" was one of my favorites, and I don't know why it was just Hermione who had to walk away laughing. I would have lost it completely, had I been there. --jenny from ravenclaw, whose dreams of living in the wizard world sometimes worry her****************************************** From Lindsay at stirton.net Wed Jun 20 21:10:42 2001 From: Lindsay at stirton.net (Lindsay Stirton) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:10:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I'm wrong In-Reply-To: <9gqga0+33hj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21234 > > After thinking about it some more I've come to the conclusion that > I'm wrong, nobody will die in the next book and I'll tell you why. > Everybody is certain somebody will die but Rowling ALWAYS surprises > us. Nobody can die on the last page of the book because if there has > been no death by the time we read the second to the last page we will > know somebody must die on the last page and so we will not be the > slightest bit surprised, thus nobody will die on that page. What a > surprise! In the same way after we have read the third to the last > page we will be certain that nobody can die on the second to the last > page, using the same reasoning we can work our way all the way back > to page 1. Thus we can be absolutely positively 100% certain that > nobody will die in the next book; and if there is a death on page 117 > we will be very surprised. I like this argument. And of course the last clause shows just the weakness of this kind of logical induction. Then again, there is no obvious place to stop the argument. If we are likely to very surprised that there will be a death on page 117, we know that there will be such a death, since JKR is a master of surprise, so we should not at all be surprised which means that... Technically, the way out of such a dilemma is a mixed strategy equilibrium: JKR could use randomness (e.g. by rolling a dice) to determine the balance between surprise and certainty. Every mixed strategy game has a unique equilibrium. I think we think about these things too hard. Lindsay Stirton > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, > to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read > and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your > cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! > For more details, contact the Moderator Team at > hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From devika261 at aol.com Wed Jun 20 21:57:30 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:57:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Wand Message-ID: <34.16c3a693.2862764a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21235 In a message dated 6/19/01 8:54:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk writes: > Dramatic tension. this is one of my favourite bits in canon, and so > beautifully written. Rolling up their sleeves emphasises just how carefully > and deliberately they're going to kill Pettigrew. > Yes. And I also believe that there was a feeling of regret in the back of their minds (a *very* small feeling in the very back of their minds) that they had to kill him. I think that scene is one of the most moving in the series. Devika (whose collector's edition of SS was just delivered yesterday--about time, right?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pennylin at swbell.net Wed Jun 20 22:09:22 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:09:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DISCUSSION - Quidditch References: Message-ID: <3B311F12.F699C87D@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21236 Hi -- Great Quidditch summary, Simon!!! > How will people feel if > Quidditch is side tracked for the rest of the series? I for one will > be > mightily disappointed if we see no more Quidditch. Me too! I love the Quidditch scenes and was disappointed that we saw no Quidditch other than the World Cup in GoF. We saw Harry show off his flying ability at the First Task, but I want more Quidditch! > 1) Who will be the new captains for the Hogwarts Quidditch teams? > > > (a) For Gryffindor we have a choice of 6 people, the three chasers > [5], the > Weasley Twins or Harry. I cannot see the justification for bringing a > new > player into the team and instantly making them the captain. The first > five of > these have the most experience, but there is the problem that they are > all in > their final year at Hogwarts. I don't think this matters so much (someone being made captain who is in his/her final year). This happens frequently with US sports teams anyway. I would like to think that the next Gryffindor captain *won't* be Harry. I like the twins for Co-Captains or Angelina as sole captain. Why Angelina and not Katie or Alicia, you say? I'm shamelessly influenced by Ebony's fabulous fanfic, Trouble in Paradise. I wonder if we will see more about Quidditch "try-outs" in OoP (if Quidditch is indeed continued). I always wonder if Ron has tried out for the team before & been rejected. Don't they need reserve players? Harry mentions that Gryffindor has no reserve seeker in PoA. Are there reserve chasers and beaters though? Hmmm... > > (c) For the other two houses do we know of any possibilities? Will Cho > continue to play after the death of Cedric? I think if there is still Quidditch, both Draco (with the other variable of "if Draco and the other Slytherins turn up for the next term AND there is still Quidditch) and Cho will still play. As to whether either of them would be captains, I can't say. > > > 3) Other players touching the Quaffle? > There is definitely a rule against any player, except for the Seeker, > touching > the Snitch [QTtA]. Is there a similar rule that bans the Seeker and > Beaters > from touching the Quaffle? From my understanding of what is written in > QTtA > there is not. Does this make sense? Would it be an idea that if needed > your > Beaters could get involved with the Quaffle if it came their way? There is such a ban against the beaters or seeker touching the quaffle in the Warner Brothers Quidditch board game. :--) > And to be thrown into this discussion on Seekers is the one we hear > about but > do not see play. How good is Charlie? Is Harry really better than him > or is> this just everyone going over the top on the praise? I think Oliver said that Harry *could* turn out to be better than Charlie. We don't know if he's achieved that status yet or not, although given Charlie's praise of Harry's flying when he went up against the Horntail, I think we can feel sure that he is at least close by now. Again, I really enjoyed this summary. Are you writing the Quidditch FAQ, Simon?? If not, do you want to be? Penny From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Jun 20 22:26:28 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 22:26:28 -0000 Subject: More about Lucius Message-ID: <9gr7uk+362v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21237 Saitaina wrote: "To sum up what my personal beliefs are, I think Saitaina wrote: To sum up what my personal beliefs are, I think Lucius is quite happy on the dark side and not about to switch. Despite my waving of Peter and Lucius support signs, I believe he is as un-redeemable as Voldemort himself and shall morn his death in coming books, but this is of course, my humble opinion. As for what made Lucius as dark as he is...I believe while he was quite young (late teens early 20's) He was most likely seduced to the side of Dark by Voldemort offering him what he wanted most, more power. Like Peter, Lucius wants to be protected by the biggest bully on the playground. Why choose the other side when this snakey looking man can kill with two words? I don't think though, that Lucius has plans as anything more then Voldemort's Number one DE. He hasn't exampled the power needed nor gave any indication he was disgusted with his position, save GoF when it was mentioned he never looked for Voldie. While I do believe Lucius wanted to be the big bad, he knows he can't do it with Voldemort around, hence his not looking for him. If you want to be the biggest kid on the block, why go looking for someone whom you know can squash you like bug. I do believe Lucius held control of the remaining free Death Eaters while the dark lord was gone, (most likely the World Cup fiasco was his idea), but when Voldemort returned I do believe he lost his position and will spend more of his energies on regaining his master's good graces then trying to over throw him. and not about to switch. Despite my waving of Peter and Lucius support signs, I believe he is as un-redeemable as Voldemort himself and shall morn his death in coming books, but this is of course, my humble opinion. As for what made Lucius as dark as he is...I believe while he was quite young (late teens early 20's) He was most likely seduced to the side of Dark by Voldemort offering him what he wanted most, more power. Like Peter, Lucius wants to be protected by the biggest bully on the playground. Why choose the other side when this snakey looking man can kill with two words? I don't think though, that Lucius has plans as anything more then Voldemort's Number one DE. He hasn't exampled the power needed nor gave any indication he was disgusted with his position, save GoF when it was mentioned he never looked for Voldie. While I do believe Lucius wanted to be the big bad, he knows he can't do it with Voldemort around, hence his not looking for him. If you want to be the biggest kid on the block, why go looking for someone whom you know can squash you like bug. I do believe Lucius held control of the remaining free Death Eaters while the dark lord was gone, (most likely the World Cup fiasco was his idea), but when Voldemort returned I do believe he lost his position and will spend more of his energies on regaining his master's good graces then trying to over throw him." This contains certainly one of the most interesting oxymorons I have ever read: Lucius being "quite happy on the Dark side"! I think that the notion of happiness does not exist there. Lucius has certainly found the right place on the Dark Side and that's why (here I agree with you) he will never change sides. And, frankly, I don't think that he joined Voldemort because he was longing for power: He's coming from one of those very ancient wizard families who just have, or rather, who just *are* power. They are very wealthy and can buy themselves everything they want, including power, which is surely one of the most easy things to buy, if only you've got enough money. This discussion has made me think about lucius more than I originally wanted to, because until now, he has always been a rather marginal figure, in terms of apparitions in the books. And I've come to the conclusion that what he could do with, and only with, Voldemort, was giving free rein to his cruelty. I think he just likes torturing people and I'd say that's a hobby you can't enjoy within "normal" society. which brings me back to my thought of this morning (and thank you, Dave, for commenting on it): If Lucius *was* V.'s illegitimate son, this doesn't necessarily make him or Draco slytherin's *true* heir. One of the heirs, of course, but not the true one, obviously this requires something more than being just a blood relative. Between slytherin and Riddle, there have been lots of Slytherin's heirs at Hogwarts, I suppose, but the legend does not mention the chamber having been opened before Tom Riddle did it. And Draco is, IMO, just a mere shadow of his father. At least, I can't imagine Lucius at the age of 13 squealing "He's killed me, he's killed me", when injured by a Hippogriff. Draco is just copying what he sees his father doing, and not giving a very convincing performance. That's why I don't agree with those speaking of Lucius as a child- abuser: He just wanted a son he could be proud of and has got only Draco ( who seems to be the only son)---serves him right!!!, the put-down Draco gets in the shop at Knockturn Alley won't be neither the first nor the last. susanna (who absolutely dislikes her sudden fascination with Lucius) From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Jun 20 22:37:21 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 22:37:21 -0000 Subject: Minor characters In-Reply-To: <9gr1lu+7hju@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gr8j2+v2is@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21238 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Chris Dosset" wrote: > > Hi all! > > > > I was just wondering if anybody had any favourite "minor" characters > in the books?> I'm rather fond of Neville's grandmother. She's one of those characters we hear more about that actually see. - CMC From ebonyink at hotmail.com Wed Jun 20 23:00:46 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:00:46 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron hungry for mother-love Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21239 >At 07:59 AM 6/20/01 +0000, pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it wrote: > >This is one more thing for Ron to accept: Not only does he always > >have to compete with his brothers, but there is one more to share his > >mother's love with. > >Considering this and the way he copes with it, I'd judge him very > >mature for his age. Dave wrote: >It might help if she occasionally showed Ron the kind of affection >she shows Harry. How do we know she doesn't? After all, one of the first glimpses we have of Molly and Ron is of her wiping off his face in public. I like Molly. The books are from Harry's PoV, so of course he wouldn't witness most mother/son interaction. I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I think that Ron *is* well loved within his family, and outside of it. Readers certainly like him. --Ebony <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< Ebony AKA AngieJ ebonyink at hotmail.com Come join us in Paradise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise Visit Schnoogle.com: http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Jun 20 23:07:52 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:07:52 -0000 Subject: Love Those Weasleys [re: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships] In-Reply-To: <9gqmlb+vsno@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9grac8+9n4l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21240 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > > However, her worry does tend to show itself in her > > > temper, too, and > > > in her tendency to be impulsive. She actually > > > believed Rita > > > Skeeter's article in Daily Prophet and treated > > > Hermione coolly <> > > > > > > Molly's one of my favourites too, which is why it bothers me so > > much. > > <> strikes me as weird that Molly doesn't know that > > Hermione's okay with Ron/Harry, enough to dismiss Skeeter's article > > as a fat load of codswallop. > > It dawned on me finally: it's not that Molly doesn't know > Hermione's okay. It's just that Molly's one of those people who > believes *everything* she reads. I'm not sure that's entirely the case. After all, Molly knows, due to her husband's complaints, that the Daily Prophet articles about the DE's at the Quidditch World Cup were highly sensationalized. George Orwell once wrote that "Early in life I had noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper." If you are highly knowledgable about a particular subject, you are quite likely to be appalled when you see an article in Time or Newsweek about it; yet, we often continue to take Time and Newsweek's at face value when they deal with other matters in which we lack expertise. The sad fact is that the mass media (both in real life and in JKR's alternate universe), widely relied upon as a means of information, is superficial, frivolous and inaccurate in matters large and small. - CMC ....we are in for a sequentiality of improbable possibles though possibly nobody after having grubbed up a lock of cwold cworn above his subject probably in Harrystotalies or the vivle will go out of his way to applaud him on the onboiassed back of his remark for utterly impossible as are all these events they are probably as like those which may have taken place as any others which ever took person at all are ever likely to be. Ahahn! - Finnegans Wake, p. 110 From JenniferABacker at cs.com Wed Jun 20 23:55:52 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 19:55:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] DISCUSSION - Quidditch Message-ID: <51.d3818a1.28629208@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21241 In a message dated 6/20/01 5:16:50 PM Central Daylight Time, pennylin at swbell.net writes: << I wonder if we will see more about Quidditch "try-outs" in OoP (if Quidditch is indeed continued). I always wonder if Ron has tried out for the team before & been rejected. >> I don't know if they ever had "try-outs" for Quidditch because Harry was picked by Professor McGonagall. Ron never had a chance up untill now to try-out. The rules had to be bended for Harry because he was a first year so Ron couldn't have tried out. Make sense or did I say something wrong? j*Black I may love werewolves <3 <3 but a big black dog will <3 <3 always have my heart <3 <3 From saitaina at wizzards.net Wed Jun 20 23:55:45 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:55:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Minor characters References: <9gr8j2+v2is@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <005801c0f9e4$8888cba0$514e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 21242 One of my favorite minor characters (as you guys know I have a few) is Sprout. I don't know why but I just love her. Course I see her as the loving grand mum type that's always puttering around the gardens so maybe that's why. ----- Original Message ----- From: Caius Marcius To: Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 3:37 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Minor characters > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Chris Dosset" wrote: > > > Hi all! > > > > > > I was just wondering if anybody had any favourite "minor" > characters > > in the books?> > > I'm rather fond of Neville's grandmother. She's one of those > characters we hear more about that actually see. > > - CMC > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > > All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From lilith_snape at hotmail.com Wed Jun 20 23:59:16 2001 From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:59:16 -0000 Subject: Minor characters In-Reply-To: <002c01c0f9bb$43840520$c8d97ad5@chris> Message-ID: <9grdck+gn6k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21243 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Chris Dosset" wrote: > Hi all! > > I was just wondering if anybody had any favourite "minor" characters in the books? My personal fave is Archie, the old wizard at the quidditch world cup who refuses to change out of his flowery dress into a pair of trousers saying "I like a healthy breeze round my privates, thanks". It was not only Hermiony who giggled uncontrollably at this. Two words- Millicent Bulstrode. (I also find Bill Weasley extremely interesting, but don't mention it to anyone!) > cheers > > Chris (who likes frivolous subjects as well as the deep discussions) Lilith Morgana ----- A proud Slytherin Promising Beater Wand: Unicorn Hair, Mahogany, 8 inches according to www.harrypotter.com ----- From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 21 00:19:05 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 00:19:05 -0000 Subject: Goodness Gracious, Goblet of Fire (filk) Message-ID: <9grehp+37kn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21244 Goodness Gracious, Goblet of Fire (GoF, Chap 16 & 17) (To the tune of Great Balls of Fire) Dedicated to Indigo (great job on the Hedwig filk!) THE SCENE: The Great Hall. DUMBLEDORE is presiding over the ceremonial selection of the Three Tri-Wizard champions. All of Hogwarts in is attendance, along with visitors from Durmstrang and Beauxbatons. DUMBLEDORE (to the Goblet) You picked our champs, and they are lookin' rum It's Cedric, Delacour and Viktor Krum We'll see great feats when they compete Goodness Gracious, Goblet of Fire! (During the second verse, the Goblet unexpectedly re-ignites, and ejects a fourth roll of parchment, which Dumbledore intercepts) Give all of your applause now to our three Tri-Wiz Oops, the Goblet's givin' out more blazin' fizz It's getting hotter ? it says H. Potter??? DUMBLEDORE & CHORUS Goodness Gracious, Goblet of Fire! HARRY You stun me, goblet, woo ..it feels bad Hold on, Goblet, it's the most stupendous shock I ever had You've surmised I'm surprised ALL (except Gryffindor students, Moody, and Dumbledore) You're a stinkin' fraud and you're lyin' lyin' lyin'! HARRY (making his way forward) I chew my nails, I'm shakin' in my shoes I'm really panicked and I ain't amused Come on goblet, don't wanna squabble-it Goodness gracious, I've raised some ire! KARKAROFF & MADAME MAXINE Exclude him, Albus, woo-ooo..that'd be right Hold off, Albus, we can't have small boys competing in this fight We say "NO WAY!" Both of our schools will take flight flight flight MOODY I'm stompin' on my peg leg and I swivel my eye Some dark wizard's plannin' to see Potter die That's why his name emerged from flame Goodness gracious, his straits are dire! MOODY/HARRY I say goodness gracious, his/my straits are dire...oooh... - CMC (amused by the image of Dumbledore dancing around like Jerry Lee Lewis) From editor at texas.net Thu Jun 21 01:38:05 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:38:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwart's Motto, help! References: <9gqok6+7h52@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B314FFD.4F141CCF@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21245 Stephanie Roark Keener wrote: > Also, "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" is JKR's homage to Tolkien. > Bilbo Baggins claims to have coined the phrase at the end of _The > Hobbit_. However (and I'm doing here what I was fussing at all of you about, sorry), hasn't JKR said that she has never read Tolkien? Nor am I certain that's exactly what Bilbo said. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Thu Jun 21 01:42:38 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 01:42:38 -0000 Subject: Minor characters In-Reply-To: <9grdck+gn6k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9grjee+d0cs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21246 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Chris Dosset" wrote: > > Hi all! > > > > I was just wondering if anybody had any favourite "minor" > characters in the books? Eloise Midgen. I've made up this huge backstory for her, some of which is going to turn up in a later chapter of Surfeit of Curses - the most salient point is, I am convinced that she is 1/4 Muggle, and her grandmother grew up in New York City where she was raised mostly by a nanny because Ms Midgen's great-grandma traveled a lot...and she and her grandma share a name... From tmayor at mediaone.net Thu Jun 21 02:14:45 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:14:45 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's past In-Reply-To: <9gqnh6+tcnk@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9grlal+f7m1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21247 Since I inadvertently cut off discussion (see Penny's post) of Dave's wondering if there are parallels between Dumbledore's past and resistance fighters in WWII, maybe I should be the person to revive it: It seems pretty clear, given Dumbledore's relationship with authority (amused, not ambitious--he humors Fudge as long as he can but with the gentle condescension of one who turned down the man's job) and his stature in the community (if he *is* the most powerful wizard we see in the books, what's he doing running a boarding school--unless, of course, he's doing a lot of other stuff on the side, and the boarding school's mission is to raise like-minded and like-talented wizards) that he's a behind-the-scenes kind of operative. And certainly his "remember Cedric Diggory" speach, his "parting of the ways" stance with the MOM, and his olive branches to the giants and other undesirables indicate he's getting his underground connections in place. So all of those would indicate resistance-fighter personality: wants to win the war, doesn't much care for the glory, just the outcome (and the lowest body count possible, because he *is* still headmaster and these are his students). This ties into the "end of an era" discussion, but I do think all of the above would make him a candidate to be removed as headmaster by a Fudge-fueled smear campaign in book V, which would make him truly a resistance fighter working completely underground. Don't forget how quietly he went when Malfoy kicked him out in CoS! It's not his nature to grandstand and make the big political gestures. ~Rosmerta From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 21 02:24:34 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:24:34 -0000 Subject: Slytherin Dot Com Message-ID: <9grlt2+l61q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21248 One would have thought that WB Studios (insert Trademark Sign) would have claimed every major HP-related web by now. Well, there is a hogwarts dot com, and a ravenclaw dot com, but there is no dot com website for the other three houses. And there is no dot org website for any of them. Something, as Nietzsche once said, for the industrious. - the slothful CMC From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 21 02:40:38 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:40:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's past In-Reply-To: <9grlal+f7m1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9grmr6+ikcs@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21249 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" wrote: > Since I inadvertently cut off discussion (see Penny's post) of Dave's > wondering if there are parallels between Dumbledore's past and > resistance fighters in WWII, maybe I should be the person to revive > it: but I do think all of > the above would make him a candidate to be removed as headmaster by a > Fudge-fueled smear campaign in book V, which would make him truly a > resistance fighter working completely underground. Don't forget how > quietly he went when Malfoy kicked him out in CoS! It's not his > nature to grandstand and make the big political gestures. > This also ties into the "new places" thread - I think Dumbledore will perish, but he is too important a character to be finished off before Book Seven. since he's already been removed once as Hogwarts Headmaster, he won't be temporarily removed again. what I think more likely: We already know that Voldy intends to move on Azkaban to liberate his supporters, and to enlist the Dementors on his side. I see Voldy securing Azkaban as his base of operations, and then doing a raid on MOM (stil locked in deep official denial of the Dark Lord's return) with all the advantages of surprise, and taking as hostage a large number of MOM officials, including Cornelius Fudge, Diggory, etc. as well as - teh emotional kicker - Percy and Arthur Weasley. They are all taken to Azkaban and held hostage, under sadistic Dementor guards. Dumbledore organizes a rescue operation headed by the two wizards who have mastered the Patronus charm: Remus Lupin & Harry Potter. - CMC Just remember that when you enter You'll run smack-dab into Dementors Make that you're dronin' Expecto Patronum Doing the Azkaban Rag (hypothetical Book Five filk, to the tune of Tom Lehrer's The Vatican Rag) From banjoken at optonline.net Thu Jun 21 03:13:15 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 03:13:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's past In-Reply-To: <9grmr6+ikcs@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9groob+37hc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21250 > I see Voldy securing Azkaban as his base of operations, and > then doing a raid on MOM (stil locked in deep official denial of > the Dark Lord's return) with all the advantages of surprise, and >taking as hostage a large number of MOM officials, including >Cornelius Fudge, Diggory, etc. as well as - teh emotional kicker - >Percy and Arthur Weasley. They are all taken to Azkaban and held >hostage under sadistic Dementor guards. Dumbledore organizes a >rescue operation headed by the two wizards who have mastered the >Patronus charm: Remus Lupin & Harry Potter. This doesn't really seem like Voldemort's style. He seems to like working more in secret. I don't see him doing a big raid like that. First, it would require quite a few DE's, and I'm sure he doesn't want to give away so many identities. Also, he wouldn't really want hostages. He'd rather just kill them (or try to make them DE's), IMHO. Ken From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Jun 21 05:17:14 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 05:17:14 -0000 Subject: New places, minor characters,a minor illumination Message-ID: <9gs00q+4i1i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21251 Caius Marcius wrote: "This also ties into the "new places" thread - I think Dumbledore will perish, but he is too important a character to be finished off before Book Seven. since he's already been removed once as Hogwarts Headmaster, he won't be temporarily removed again." Not only is he too important a character, but he's also *the* carismatic leader- who could possibly take his place if he died too soon? JKR would already have had to build up a character who'd be up to his level, if se wanted to finish him off in book 5. Because nobody on Dumbledore's side is a personality accepted by everybody else, everybody's got a little smirk on his/her character: Severus was a DE and some important people like Sirius and Remus don't trust him; Sirius' name is not yet cleaned and few people would trust *him*, Lupin's a werewolf (big sigh!), Moody's a bit too crazy, McGonagall is no leader ec.etc., you can tick everybody off the possible leaders' list. So obviously, some character has to be made credible as a leader during book 5 and Dumbledore, IMO can't die before book 6, or the anti-V. communiy would fall apart. still Caius Marcius: "what I think more likely: We already know that Voldy intends to move on Azkaban to liberate his supporters, and to enlist the Dementors on his side. I see Voldy securing Azkaban as his base of operations, and then doing a raid on MOM (stil locked in deep official denial of the Dark Lord's return) with all the advantages of surprise, and taking as hostage a large number of MOM officials, including Cornelius Fudge, Diggory, etc. as well as - teh emotional kicker - Percy and Arthur Weasley. They are all taken to Azkaban and held hostage, under sadistic Dementor guards. Dumbledore organizes a rescue operation headed by the two wizards who have mastered the Patronus charm: Remus Lupin & Harry Potter." I'd categorize that one clearly under "Die Hard IV" and cast Bruce Willis for Remus Lupin!!!!(Hans Gruber from part 1 returning, because he's really Snape/Alan Rickman and the jump out of the window hasn't hurt him in the least, because he's changed into a vulture, hiding on the hat of Nevile's grandmother) My favourite minor character is the ministry wizard from the department of experimental magic, Gilbert Wimple, who can't get rid of his horns. I'm reading GoF for the millionth time and was just about to post an SOS, shamefuly asking everybody whether they could explain what the heck a Bong-sewer was (GoF, chapter 19, Hagrid says it when Madame Mxime steps out of the carriage), when I suddenly realized it meant "bon soir"!! Susanna (who's glad not to have studied at Howarts because she would have developed huge crushes on Snape *and* Lupin and therefore undergone a severe crisis of schizophrenia) From miss_megan at dingoblue.net.au Thu Jun 21 06:56:51 2001 From: miss_megan at dingoblue.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:56:51 -0000 Subject: Where is Fluffy In-Reply-To: <9gopbo+7cp9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gs5rj+jiij@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21252 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., niamh at r... wrote: > being the proud owner of a cuddly fluffy has got me to wondering yet > again where is he now, sorry if it has already been discussed but > does anyone know what happened to him after his admirable work in the > P.S.? I don't know, but you are not the only one who is wondering . Something I read the other day (not in cannon) suggested he was roaming around the Forbben Forest. I guess he could be there but he would be cold at night. Maybe Hagrid has sent him back to Greece where the weather is more congenial? storm From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 21 08:44:26 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:44:26 -0000 Subject: death by logic - Ghosts. In-Reply-To: <9gqga0+33hj@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gsc5a+3hvc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21253 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eggplant107 at h... wrote: > After thinking about it some more I've come to the conclusion that > I'm wrong, nobody will die in the next book and I'll tell you why. > Everybody is certain somebody will die but Rowling ALWAYS surprises > us. Nobody can die on the last page of the book because if there has > been no death by the time we read the second to the last page we will > know somebody must die on the last page and so we will not be the > slightest bit surprised, thus nobody will die on that page. What a > surprise! In the same way after we have read the third to the last > page we will be certain that nobody can die on the second to the last > page, using the same reasoning we can work our way all the way back > to page 1. Thus we can be absolutely positively 100% certain that > nobody will die in the next book; and if there is a death on page 117 > we will be very surprised. Of course, if OoP is only twenty pages long, with a death of a major character on every page, that would be a bit of a shocker. The sort of book Rita Skeeter or Trelawney would write. A slightly more serious issue on death in HP: we are repeatedly told that you can't get the dead back. At the same time, we have a number of ghosts floating about to contradict this. Can we be sure that if, to take a random example, Snape is bumped off that that's the end? Who would be your favourite character to be a ghost in the next episode? David, wondering if there's a similar issue about the undead... From sprsun at yahoo.com Thu Jun 21 08:59:05 2001 From: sprsun at yahoo.com (sprsun at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:59:05 -0000 Subject: Love Those Weasleys [re: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships] In-Reply-To: <9grac8+9n4l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gsd0p+gd76@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21254 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > > It dawned on me finally: it's not that Molly doesn't know > > Hermione's okay. It's just that Molly's one of those people who > > believes *everything* she reads. > > > I'm not sure that's entirely the case. After all, Molly knows, due > to her husband's complaints, that the Daily Prophet articles about > the DE's at the Quidditch World Cup were highly sensationalized. And she was criticizing Amos Diggory's cold treatment of Harry because of the Rita Skeeter's article, just moments before she met Hermione and gave her the cold shoulder herself. I think the irony is intentional and it shows us that people react more emotionally when it comes to the persons or things they care about. After all, being a MoM official, Diggory should've been familiar with Skeeter's usual twisting of facts as well. Hui From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 21 09:36:15 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:36:15 -0000 Subject: Minor characters In-Reply-To: <002c01c0f9bb$43840520$c8d97ad5@chris> Message-ID: <9gsf6f+oo26@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21255 Chris Dosset asked: > Hi all! > > I was just wondering if anybody had any favourite "minor" characters in the books? > cheers > > Chris (who likes frivolous subjects as well as the deep discussions) > Otto Bagman, who has a lawnmower with unnatural powers (at the end of book 5, he will come charging onto the scene with his lawnmower and Wormtail will escape *again*); Mortlake and his odd ferrets; Boris the bewildered, with his gloves on the wrong hands. Just because he's a statue doesn't mean he's dead yet - I hope we see more of him; (not really a minor character but he cracks me up all the time) Arthur Weasley, who got rather overexcited when it came to using the mallets. Frivolously yours David From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 21 10:59:38 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:59:38 -0000 Subject: Love Those Weasleys [re: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships] In-Reply-To: <9gqmlb+vsno@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gsk2q+a89o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21256 Pippin wrote: > It dawned on me finally: it's not that Molly doesn't know > Hermione's okay. It's just that Molly's one of those people who > believes *everything* she reads. Remember in CoS, she wanted the twins > to look up how to denome the garden in Lockhart's books, even though > they'd obviously been doing it all their lives. It strikes me that in all areas where she has not had direct experience to the contrary (Fudge), Molly is very traditional in her views. Evidence: Arthur agrees with Hermione about House-elves. Where do Ron and Percy get their views? Not from Dumbledore. Similarly Ron on giants and werewolves. "Mum has a second cousin who's an accountant. But we never talk about him." Arthur would be fascinated by a Muggle relative, however distant. ("but you're an *accountant*! Do you use *Claculators*?") Why don't they talk about him - Molly doesn't want to. She married into a very old wizarding family; she has not to our knowledge pursued a career of her own; she doesn't approve of Bill's dress; getting a MOM job is the ideal career choice; she reads Witch Weekly. It will be interesting to see what her expectations for Ginny are. She would disbelieve Rita Skeeter about MOM news, but not about other things; she would believe Lockhart not only because of his personal charm but also because he endorses traditional views (werewolves are a scourge, etc.). This is not to say that her beliefs are deeply entrenched or she is not open minded: she just hasn't thought much about things that don't affect her directly, such as Arthur's career at the MOM. It's the more to her credit that she doesn't pressure Arthur to modify his stance for his career. David From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 21 11:36:03 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:36:03 -0000 Subject: DISCUSSION - Quidditch - perilously nearly OT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gsm73+q25f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21257 Thought provoking discussion, Simon. I think Quidditch will play a role in the final showdown. Can the Quidditch captain be a prefect as well? May I draw attention to the unusual scoring system for the Hogwarts Quidditch league (and perhaps other leagues)? The winning team is the one with the highest overall score, not the one with the most points on a 2 or 3 for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a lose basis. (BTW, *can* you draw at Quidditch? If the scores are even, does the snitch-taker win?) This could lead to the following interesting situation. Suppose there are four teams, G, H, R and S. Their results at the end of the league are (the winning score in a match must be at least 150): S defeats R 200 - 0 S defeats H 400 - 200 R defeats H 600 - 400 S defeats G 600 - 400 R defeats G 800 - 600 H defeats G 1000 - 800 Total scores: S 1200, R 1400, H 1600, G 1800. G wins the league despite losing all their matches and S loses despite winning all theirs. H is above R despite a worse win-loss record. A similar procedure works for any league with more than two members. It works because the game-losing teams have high scoring matches. Now this is surely a metaphor for something, and an encouragement to the Chudley Cannons. David From mediaphen at hotmail.com Thu Jun 21 11:50:02 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (mediaphen at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:50:02 -0000 Subject: Of OWL:s, Broomsticks and Kneazles Message-ID: <9gsn1b+chka@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21258 Hi everybody! Picking up some threads: OWL:s IMO, there must be some classes regarded as more important than others (for instance, runes couldn't possibly be equally important as charms) and thus given more lesson time. Therefore, an equivalent to the university units system must be made, in which the runes class is, say, 0.5 u, DADA is 2.0, charms is 1.8 and so forth (I'm not stating these numbers as absolute facts, just to illuminate my general idea). As for the grades, I believe there to be only two options: Either you fail, or you pass. Let's say, for the sake of understanding, that two fictional students (let's call them Pippi and Emil to pay respect to another outstanding author of children's literature, Astrid Lindgren) perform like this on their OWL exams: Pippi passes DADA, Charms, Transfiguration, Potions and Arithmancy, and fails every other class. Emil passes Runes, CoMC, Divination, Astronomy and Herbology, and fails everything else. Now, who is the better student? With each class meaning one OWL, both Pippi and Emil would receive five OWL:s, so they would be just as good as the other. But, with the unit system suggested above, Pippi would receive appr 9 OWL:s, whereas Emil would score appr. 3 OWL:s, which gives a much more realistic picture of their qualities as magical students, IMHO. (Does it show that I am a University graduate?) Broomsticks: I watched the well known Swedish folklore researcher Ebbe Sch?n on the telly (TV, that is), stating that in good old folklore tradition, witches used to fly on broomsticks. However, they flied with the tail first, and once they were up in the air, they turned around and flied upside-down. This because of, in the old time Muggle's belief, everything magical was to be done backwards. So why is it that Harry & Co don't fly like this? Could it be that some magician with skills in aerodynamics found that flying with the broom's tail-end last gave him a tremendous increase in speed and agility, won fame, respect and Galleons at the Quidditch pitch, and thereby changing the way witches and wizards flew their brooms entirely (much like Dick Fosbury did with the Fosbury Flop in high jump...)? Or could it be that only the bad witches/wizards (as you probably know, most Muggles consider witches as evil) fly BW/USD (backwards/upside down). Just imagine Lucie M flying his brand new Nimbus 500 CDL Extravaganza Convertible to pick up Draco at graduation day, tail-end first, bumping his head into the top of the walls of Hogwarts :-D Any thoughts? Craig wrote: > Crookshanks is a kneazle. See the HP school books. > > ....Craig Haggridd wrote: >No, he isn't; I'll bet you a chocolate frog! > >Haggridd I have to go with both here. I wrote, in my first ever post to this group, that Crookshanks might be a semi-animagus related to Krum. Well, I don't honestly believe that world famous Krum were to find his long lost brother in cat/kneazle form all of a sudden (how soap opera is that?). However, IMO Crookshanks is more than a cat. Checking my copy of FB, I found that kneazles have a lion-like tail, and AFAIK it's not mentioned in canon. Now, this doesn't rule out the kneazle possibility, since the opposite isn't stated either. But what really made me doubt that Crookshanks is a 100% kneazle is that FB states that in order to own a kneazle, the owner must have a licence for it. Hermione buying Crookshanks is, IMO, an impulse, spirit-of- the-moment purchase, and surely she wouldn't have gotten a kneazle permit, carrying it around "...just in case I happen to go to a pet store and find a nice little kneazle I can buy and annoy Ronnie and Scabs with..." (Herm's thoughts made up by me). So my bet, Mr Bagman, is two sickles on Crookshanks being part kneazle, part cat, with the physique mainly of a cat (which would explain why the pet shop boy (sorry, don't recall his/her name) sold him to Herm, believing `twas a cat). Phew! Long sentence... Haggridd (again) wrote: >p.s. Are you enjoying the visit of George W.? > I jumped there for a second. George Weasley is in town? Wow! Coolness! Then I realised you probably meant George W Bush, which IMHO is much less exciting (saying that isn't too political, right? ). And so, I leave the civilised world for a few days to celebrate Midsummer (big thing in Sweden...) Martin (Hermione act-a-like, Ravenclaw sorted, favourite minor character: Lee Jordan) From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Jun 21 12:30:25 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:30:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's past In-Reply-To: <9grlal+f7m1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gspd1+hb41@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21259 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" wrote: if he *is* the most powerful wizard we > see in the books, what's he doing running a boarding school--> See, now, this bothers me a bit. I think Dumbledore is in the best place possible. Hogwarts, for one is no ordinary boarding school. It's considered, IIRC, one of the best schools of magic around. Also, what else could Dumbledore do that would be *better* than running an educational institution? He not only makes sure the students there learn the most they can in the best possible way, but he is also protecting a large group of adolescents - the future of the wizarding world. I can't imagine that Dumbledore ever questions his choice to be a professor/headmaster. I also think he is far more appreciated by the Hogwarts community than he would be by the MoM. Give me Hogwarts any day! Although as a teacher in the NYC public school system, I might be a bit biased here. --jenny from ravenclaw******************************************* From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 21 12:43:11 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:43:11 -0000 Subject: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <008401c0f9ba$4bb59ac0$6d39acce@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9gsq4v+be13@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21260 Oh, yes, sorry, probably that thick layer of dust my copy of the Hobbit accounts for my confusion. Stephanie --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote: > > Also, "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" is JKR's homage to Tolkien. > > Bilbo Baggins claims to have coined the phrase at the end of _The > > Hobbit_. > > Er... no. Bilbo's motto is "Never laugh at live dragons". Not the same at > all. > -- > Rebecca J. Bohner > rebeccaj at p... > http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From simon at hp.inbox.as Thu Jun 21 12:43:35 2001 From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:43:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DISCUSSION - Quidditch In-Reply-To: <9gsm73+q25f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21261 David: <<>> I see no reason for the Quidditch captain to be excluded from being prefect. David: <<>> I am not sure that this is the case. My understanding was that in Harry's third year, going into the final game, we have: Gryffindor: 1 win (R), 1 loss (H) Slytherin: 2 wins (R, H) Ravenclaw: 1 win (H) and 2 losses (G, S) Hufflepuff: 1 win (G) and 2 losses (R, S) So going into the last game we have the situation that if Gryffindor win then two teams will each have 2 wins (G, S). If this is the case then the teams need to be separated by some other means to decide which one wins the cup. Seemingly this is done by points difference (points scored - points conceded). Hence Gryffindor must win by a certain number of points in the final game, thus enabling them to end up with a better points difference than Slytherin and win the cup. Me: <<< > 1) Who will be the new captains for the Hogwarts Quidditch teams? (a) For Gryffindor we have a choice of 6 people, the three chasers [5], the Weasley Twins or Harry. I cannot see the justification for bringing a new player into the team and instantly making them the captain. The first five of these have the most experience, but there is the problem that they are all in their final year at Hogwarts.>>> Penny: <<>> My question is more over what then happens to the team in the following year. The best thing for the team in OotP is for one of the 7th years to be made captain, but this leaves problems for Harry's 6th year. Either he or someone else would then become captain as the only players left on the team from the preceding year. Meaning that they would have to learn the captain job and pick an entire new team all in one go. Not an easy thing to do. It would benefit the person who is going to be captain in Harry's 6th year if they are captain in his 5th year. Thus enabling them to get practise as captain with the added bonus of a team that practically runs itself. Me: <<<3) Other players touching the Quaffle?>>> Penny: <<>> Where would you like for your ton of salt to be delivered? Simon -- Dr. Simon Branford: "...a handsome blond mediwizard who really seemed a bit too young to be fully credentialed..." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trouble in Paradise Chapter 5: Flipping the Script by Ebony, a.k.a. AngieJ, (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ochfd42 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 21 14:42:50 2001 From: ochfd42 at yahoo.com (Angela Boyko) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Minor characters In-Reply-To: <002c01c0f9bb$43840520$c8d97ad5@chris> Message-ID: <20010621144250.19305.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21262 --- Chris Dosset wrote: > Hi all! > > I was just wondering if anybody had any favourite > "minor" characters in the books? My personal fave > is Archie, the old wizard at the quidditch world cup > who refuses to change out of his flowery dress into > a pair of trousers saying "I like a healthy breeze > round my privates, thanks". It was not only > Hermiony who giggled uncontrollably at this. I'm not sure where Bill Weasley would be classified, but he's major in my books. I still smile when I recall Molly and Bill showing up for the Third Task as Harry's family. The way he acted in the hospital wing - taking the time to clasp Harry's shoulder and kiss Molly on the cheek before running out to start the battle against Voldy - he's a class act. And dead sexy, I am sure! I also like Oliver Wood, who left Hogwarts on a Quidditch high. Angela ===== * * * http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/4439/index.html * * * May the Force be with you _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca From ebonyink at hotmail.com Thu Jun 21 15:18:50 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:18:50 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Love Those Weasleys [re: Notes on the Weasleys and their Hardships] Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21263 Great post, David! >>It strikes me that in all areas where she has not had direct >experience to the contrary (Fudge), Molly is very traditional in her >views. >It will be interesting to see what her expectations for Ginny are. I agree. I *really* see the potential for generational conflict between mother and daughter. I always thought of Molly as a rather traditional woman, and I think that post-women's lib "traditional" women's roles are much more entrenched in wizarding society than in the Muggle--Quidditch notwithstanding. The problem is, we don't know much about Ginny. Reading between the lines, I think she either has a very close relationship with her mother or her mother has simply kept her close. We don't yet know enough about Ginny to say whether or not she'll conform or rebel. Most fanfic writers like Rebel!Ginny, but I think we all ought to pay closer attention to clues we have in canon and birth order rationale. >She would disbelieve Rita Skeeter about MOM news, but not about other >things; she would believe Lockhart not only because of his personal >charm but also because he endorses traditional views (werewolves are >a scourge, etc.). > >This is not to say that her beliefs are deeply entrenched or she is >not open minded: she just hasn't thought much about things that don't >affect her directly, such as Arthur's career at the MOM. It's the >more to her credit that she doesn't pressure Arthur to modify his >stance for his career. I would have hoped she would have been a bit more understanding re: Hermione's portrayal in the Rita Skeeter articles. This is yet another thing that bothers me about long-term R/H--unless they change, at this point I see them going through everlasting cycles of intensity and cooling down. If Molly was upset over an article by a questionable source, imagine how she'll react to Hermione if they are dating/engaged/married and R/H ever *did* have a major yet resolvable conflict. Talk about mother-in-law problems... --Ebony <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< Ebony AKA AngieJ ebonyink at hotmail.com Come join us in Paradise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise Visit Schnoogle.com: http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ebonyink at hotmail.com Thu Jun 21 15:50:44 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:50:44 Subject: Dumbledore and Teaching Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21264 >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" wrote: >if he *is* the most powerful wizard we > > see in the books, what's he doing running a boarding school--> Jenny wrote: >See, now, this bothers me a bit. I think Dumbledore is in the best >place possible. Hogwarts, for one is no ordinary boarding school. >It's considered, IIRC, one of the best schools of magic around. >Also, what else could Dumbledore do that would be *better* than >running an educational institution? He not only makes sure the >students there learn the most they can in the best possible way, but >he is also protecting a large group of adolescents - the future of >the wizarding world. You know, if it wasn't for your ship preference, Jenny, I'd think we were HP fandom twins. ;-) Same favorite character... same views on most things... Because of our perception that teachers are all talentless lugs, unfit to do anything beside be overpriced babysitters, we look at talented people who choose to go into education and write them off as hopeless eccentrics and dreaming fools. Yet how do we know that McGonagall, Snape, Lupin, etc. aren't among the most powerful and talented witches and wizards of the world? Some of the most talented and creative people I know in RL are teachers. I was taught high school English and Spanish by two lawyers who'd passed the Michigan Bar before they realized they'd rather go into the classroom. My eleventh grade chemistry teacher was more than halfway through medical school when he heard the call to the classroom... of course, we students all viciously said he flunked out when he gave us 4 hours of homework every night, but now that I'm a teacher I believe him. My twelfth grade Advanced Placement Spanish teacher had a Ph.D in linguistics and spoke A DOZEN languages fluently (he used to tell us stories about dreaming in Arabic one night, and Japanese the next) and conversational in almost 20 others. I know teachers here in Detroit who own their own businesses, teach college classes, sell real estate, and are part-time accountants and financial planners. >I can't imagine that Dumbledore ever questions his choice to be a >professor/headmaster. I also think he is far more appreciated by the >Hogwarts community than he would be by the MoM. Jenny, I think only teachers understand this. Nobody sane teaches for the money. We teach because of the 1001 "little rewards" that we get. Just like Hermione's mentoring relationship with McGonagall, Snape's with Draco, and Harry's with Dumbledore, real-life teachers form those kinds of mentorships with real-life kids. Students talk to us about just about everything... it's humbling to have that kind of trust from a young person, that they'd share stuff with you that they're scared to tell their parents: "I'm scared of the dark... My uncle's coming to visit, but I don't like being around him... I think my girlfriend is pregnant--what should I do?" In just three short years of teaching kids in grades five through twelve, I've heard all of the above. We teach because seeing confusion transformed into understanding on a young person's face is a thrill that can be compared to nothing else. As an English teacher whose area of expertise is composition and creative writing, there are kids who I *know* I taught how to write fluent essays and creative forms of expression.... kids who came to my class not knowing how to read and write on grade level at all. (TAG programs in inner-city schools are strange--bright kids, lots of previous educational gaps.) My friends in business and engineering get bonuses and stock options... but over 90% of my students passed the MEAP writing test, a score that puts my kids on the top of the state. Smart kids, of course--but the year before I took over our middle school's writing program, we were at 59%. I say my friends can keep their bonuses and stock portfolios... I'm ensuring that businesses get qualified workers in the future. Without me, Jenny, and the millions of others who teach, there wouldn't be any corporations at all! I wonder if Snape feels the same way I do when all of the kids in his Potions class have prepared the concoction of the moment correctly--even Neville. We teach because if we didn't, who would? When I was a kid growing up relatively poor, I dreamed of having a career that would help change the world I lived in. So lastly, I teach because when you think about it, next to parenting there is no more powerful influence that you can have on a person's life. Dumbledore's no fool. He has the right idea. :-D For what better way to fight ignorance, prejudice, cowardice, and all the other vices that aided Voldemort's first rise to power... than to capture the attention and respect of the youngest, help them "unlearn" erroneous beliefs (READ: Draco Malfoy), then learn a new way? >Give me Hogwarts any day! Although as a teacher in the NYC public >school system, I might be a bit biased here. LOL! You're in NYC? We must talk... I say we both find enchanted owls and write proposals to Hogwarts about a new and expanded Muggle Studies curriculum... for which we know two *extremely* qualified instructors... --Ebony (who *will* visit King's Cross Station while she is in the UK) <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< Ebony AKA AngieJ ebonyink at hotmail.com Come join us in Paradise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise Visit Schnoogle.com: http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From bess_va at lycos.com Thu Jun 21 16:06:43 2001 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va at lycos.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:06:43 -0000 Subject: newbie Speculation about Rita Skeeter Message-ID: <9gt62j+d47f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21265 so, what is the consensus (if there is one) about *what* Rita will do? When we last see her, she's under Hermione's physical control (glass jar with an unbreakable spell), with a forced promise for Rita not to publish for a year. Now Rita was present (as a bug) during at least part of the hospital wing scene between Dumbledore-Fudge-Harry-Snape-Sirius (we don't know how much she heard). So she may know Sirius is an animagi, she may know Dumbledore has been harboring a fugitive, she may know that Mr. Weasley will probably be conducting gross insubordination at the Ministry, she may know that Snape goes off to do "something", she may know Dumbledore believes Voldy is back, she may know Fudge ain't playing and threatens Dumbledore. (what I find incomprehensible is that Hermione doesn't tell any adult about this! this woman is dangerous! she ain't nice! and isn't a promise made under duress unenforceable morally and legally?) So if she does know all these things, I don't think she's gonna fly to Remus's house and say "Hey guys! Guess what! I'm an illegal animagi also and I want to join in your war against Voldy". I don't think she's gonna be like Fudge, and pretend this isn't happening. I wonder if she'll try to find Voldy...that would be one heck of a scoop wouldn't it? I bet 5 chocolate frogs that she'll at least inform the MOM that Dumbledore was harboring Sirius (one way of getting rid of Dumbledore), and that Sirius can now be found at the residence of one Remus Lupin. From blpurdom at yahoo.com Thu Jun 21 17:44:05 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ghosts/Diggory/Minor Characters/Classes/Backwards stuff Message-ID: <20010621174405.17566.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21266 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > Who would be your favourite character to be a ghost in the next > episode? Cedric didnt get to finish school, so he has unfinished business. Also, he could give Harry advice on how to win Cho, which would really embarrass Harry... --- In HPforGrownups at y..., sprsun at y... wrote: After all, > being a MoM official, Diggory should've been familiar with Skeeter's > usual twisting of facts as well. Were shown how dim Diggory can be at the beginning of GoF when Crouch reams him out for accusing the two people in the woods LEAST likely to conjure the Dark Mark: him and Harry. (Although Crouch isnt such a stretch if you consider he helped his Death Eater son escape from Azkaban...) Chris Dosset asked: > Hi all! > > I was just wondering if anybody had any favourite "minor" characters in the books? Portraits: The fat lady in the pink dress (why doesnt she have a name?); her witch friend, Violet; and all-time-favorite is Sir Cadogan! Hes fantastic! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mediaphen at h... wrote: > > IMO, there must be some classes regarded as more > important than others (for instance, runes couldn't > possibly be equally important as charms) and thus > given more lesson time. Since some classes are referred to as Double Potions and Double Divination, there do seem to be longer periods for some things (although Im not sure I see the point of prolonging Divination class). The way I accommodated this in my fic is to put important classes 3 days a week (Potions, Transfiguration, DADA and Charms) and minor classes 2 days a week (Care of Magical Creatures, Herbology, History of Magic, Divination). > Broomsticks: > I watched the well known Swedish folklore researcher > Ebbe Schn on the telly (TV, that is), stating that > in good old folklore tradition, witches used to fly > on broomsticks. However, they flied with the tail > first, and once they were up in the air, they turned > around and flied upside-down. This because of, in > the old time Muggle's belief, everything magical was > to be done backwards. Actually, The Witch Family, by Eleanor Estes was one of my favorite books as a kid, and in it witch math and spelling does indeed go backwards. I also read some other childrens book where the brooms are ridden with the twigs in front. In addition, when there were major witch hunts here in Europe and New England in the seventeenth century (and earlier), one thing accused-witches/wizards were charged with was reciting the Lords Prayer backwards. This was supposed to be some form of hex. I seem to be caught up now... --Barb ===== Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From meboriqua at aol.com Thu Jun 21 17:46:33 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:46:33 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Teaching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gtbtp+b090@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21267 Hooray for Ebony! I couldn't have said it better myself! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" wrote: > You know, if it wasn't for your ship preference, Jenny, I'd think we were HP > fandom twins. ;-) Same favorite character... same views on most things... Just remember, I love a good party and leave plenty of room on the good ships R/H *and* H/G... come aboard any time - I do not discriminate against other shippers! > > Because of our perception that teachers are all talentless lugs, unfit to do > anything beside be overpriced babysitters, we look at talented people who > choose to go into education and write them off as hopeless eccentrics and > dreaming fools. > > Yet how do we know that McGonagall, Snape, Lupin, etc. aren't among the most > powerful and talented witches and wizards of the world? I believe that they are. Snape has a bravery, aside from his Potions talent that I could never possess. Lupin has been able to overcome the small handicap of being a werewolf to become a beloved professor who really knows his stuff. As for McGonagall - any teacher who needn't shout to keep the class quiet is a good teacher in my book! I have an enormous amount of respect for McGonagall. I'd study my butt off for her classes. > > Jenny, I think only teachers understand this. Nobody sane teaches for the > money. We teach because of the 1001 "little rewards" that we get. > > Just like Hermione's mentoring relationship with McGonagall, Snape's with > Draco, and Harry's with Dumbledore, real-life teachers form those kinds of > mentorships with real-life kids. Absolutely. The fact that Harry always feels safe when Dumbledore is around is an enormous compliment to Dumbledore. When my students passed their English Language Arts Regents Exam last week, two of my girls said to me "You did a good job with us!". I almost cried. > > I say my friends can keep their bonuses and stock portfolios... I'm ensuring > that businesses get qualified workers in the future. Without me, Jenny, and > the millions of others who teach, there wouldn't be any corporations at all! > > I wonder if Snape feels the same way I do when all of the kids in his > Potions class have prepared the concoction of the moment correctly-- even > Neville. How could he not? I am sure that he loves passing on his knowledge to his students, even if he isn't too crazy about them. I am waiting for the day when Harry really needs Snape's help (and I believe he will), because I think Snape will help him. As nasty as he is to a good portion of his students, I never felt that Snape hated teaching. I can't prove that - just call it teacher's intuition, I guess. > > We teach because if we didn't, who would? Ebony, I don't know, but I wouldn't give up teaching for anything. I adore my students and they know it. People also do not realize how loyal kids are when they trust and like you. Since I teach in the South Bronx, a number of my students have had problems with the law. They are not afraid to fight. They have offered to beat people up for me, which sounds strange, but coming from them, is a highly paid compliment (and as tempting as it is, I have never taken them up on their offers). It is their way of letting me know that they trust me and don't want harm to come my way. To bring it back to HP, in PoA, when the troika confronted Snape in the Shreiking Shack, they used their wands against them partly because they did not like how he was treating their other teacher, Lupin. That's student loyalty! > > > >Give me Hogwarts any day! Although as a teacher in the NYC public > >school system, I might be a bit biased here. > > LOL! You're in NYC? We must talk... I say we both find enchanted owls and > write proposals to Hogwarts about a new and expanded Muggle Studies > curriculum... for which we know two *extremely* qualified instructors... > As long as I don't have to work at the MoM (or any other office, for that matter), you can put me in the dungeons and I'll work magic (pun intended) with those kids... --jenny from ravenclaw, who still loves her summer vacation********* From a_serber at yahoo.com Thu Jun 21 18:23:55 2001 From: a_serber at yahoo.com (a_serber at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:23:55 -0000 Subject: book5 Message-ID: <9gte3r+j4ou@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21268 when does book 5 come out? From michelleapostolides at lineone.net Thu Jun 21 18:26:04 2001 From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:26:04 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] book5 References: <9gte3r+j4ou@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <028a01c0fa7f$a2268d40$a7427bd5@tmeltcds> No: HPFGUIDX 21269 I think this is in our VFAQ ( Very Frequently Asked Questions ) but all we know is that it will be in the first half of next year - but don't hold you r breath for it. Michelle From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Jun 21 19:42:09 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:42:09 -0000 Subject: Minor characters In-Reply-To: <002c01c0f9bb$43840520$c8d97ad5@chris> Message-ID: <9gtimh+695p@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21270 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Chris Dosset" wrote: > Hi all! > > I was just wondering if anybody had any favourite "minor" characters in the books? My personal fave is Archie, the old wizard at the quidditch world cup who refuses to change out of his flowery dress into a pair of trousers saying "I like a healthy breeze round my privates, thanks". It was not only Hermiony who giggled uncontrollably at this. > > cheers > > Chris I am quite fond of Stan Shunpike, whose observation about Muggle sight and hearing crack me up. I also like Moaning Myrtle, who lurks in the prefects' bathroom to spy on the boys. Haggridd From JenniferABacker at cs.com Thu Jun 21 19:54:59 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:54:59 EDT Subject: Chance to win books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21271 First I want to say that if "promoting" this is against a rule, I'm VERY sorry!! I'm just trying to help because I heard a few people mention they didn't have the books. I've found a way where you can earn the books. There's a place called elementusa.com where you fill out surveys and get points. You can exchange those points for chances to win prizes. (Or you can automatically win CDs.) Lately they've been giving out $250 gift certificates to places like amazon.com (where you can by HP stuff.) It's really simple to get points. If you answer a poll you get 25 points in which you can exchange for 25 chances to win the certificate. This is VERY worth it in my opinion. You really get this stuff if you win. Again if I crossed a line, yell at me all you want (I deserve it if I did) as long as you don't kick me out or anything. If you need help with anything. Just ask ;-) J*Black Gryffindor Beater 50% obsessed From draco at antisocial.com Thu Jun 21 20:15:11 2001 From: draco at antisocial.com (bitchboy) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:15:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts/Diggory/Minor Characters/Classes/Backwards stuff Message-ID: <412001642120151161@antisocial.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21272 <> whoa. creepy. ---------------------------------------------- Original Message From: "Barbara Purdom" Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts/Diggory/Minor Characters/Classes/Backwards stuff Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:44:05 -0700 (PDT) >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., dfrankis at d... wrote: > >> Who would be your favourite character to be a ghost >in the next >> episode? > >Cedric didnt get to finish school, so he has >unfinished business. Also, he could give >Harry advice on how to win Cho, which would really >embarrass Harry... > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sprsun at y... wrote: > >After all, >> being a MoM official, Diggory should've been >familiar with Skeeter's >> usual twisting of facts as well. > >Were shown how dim Diggory can be at the beginning of >GoF when Crouch reams him out for accusing the two >people in the woods LEAST likely to conjure the Dark >Mark: him and Harry. (Although Crouch isnt such a >stretch if you consider he helped his Death Eater son >escape from Azkaban...) > >Chris Dosset asked: > Hi all! > > I was just wondering >if anybody had any favourite >"minor" characters in the books? > >Portraits: The fat lady in the pink dress (why doesnt >she have a name?); her witch friend, Violet; and >all-time-favorite is Sir Cadogan! Hes fantastic! > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mediaphen at h... wrote: >> >> IMO, there must be some classes regarded as more >> important than others (for instance, runes couldn't >> possibly be equally important as charms) and thus >> given more lesson time. > >Since some classes are referred to as Double Potions >and Double Divination, there do seem to be longer >periods for some things (although Im not sure I see >the point of prolonging Divination class). The way I >accommodated this in my fic is to put important >classes 3 days a week (Potions, Transfiguration, DADA >and Charms) and minor classes 2 days a week (Care of >Magical Creatures, Herbology, History of Magic, >Divination). > >> Broomsticks: >> I watched the well known Swedish folklore researcher > >> Ebbe Schn on the telly (TV, that is), stating that >> in good old folklore tradition, witches used to fly >> on broomsticks. However, they flied with the tail >> first, and once they were up in the air, they turned > >> around and flied upside-down. This because of, in >> the old time Muggle's belief, everything magical was > >> to be done backwards. > >Actually, The Witch Family, by Eleanor Estes was one >of my favorite books as a kid, and in it witch math >and spelling does indeed go backwards. I also read >some other childrens book where the brooms are ridden >with the twigs in front. In addition, when there were >major witch hunts here in Europe and New England in >the seventeenth century (and earlier), one thing >accused-witches/wizards were charged with was reciting >the Lords Prayer backwards. This was supposed to be >some form of hex. > >I seem to be caught up now... > >--Barb > > > >===== >Get Psyched out... >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail >http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > >_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > >All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for >everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > >Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter >to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > >(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 21 20:29:20 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Love Those Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010621202920.48495.qmail@web10902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21273 --- Ebony Elizabeth Thomas wrote: > We don't yet know enough about Ginny to say whether > or not she'll conform or > rebel. Most fanfic writers like Rebel!Ginny, but I > think we all ought to > pay closer attention to clues we have in canon and > birth order rationale. I think that the only hint we've been given about Ginny's beliefs on this matter so far is in GOF when Molly is trying to talk Bill into letting her cut his hair and Ginny pipes up that she likes it long and Molly is being too old-fashioned. (Sorry for inexact quote, but I'm at work.) Now, this is a pretty minor little quote to draw a lot out of - she might just be a worshipful little sister who thinks anything Bill does is utterly wonderful. *But* I don't think JKR would've thrown that in just for the heck of it. She might've been foreshadowing some future difficulties between mother and daughter. Just my two Knuts on the subject, since I've been too quiet lately! Andrea PS - I think my favorite minor character would have to be Lee Jordan. I really missed his Quiddich commentaries during GOF! ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From JenniferABacker at cs.com Thu Jun 21 20:47:22 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:47:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Love Those Weasleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21274 In a message dated 6/21/01 3:36:16 PM Central Daylight Time, ra_1013 at yahoo.com writes: << PS - I think my favorite minor character would have to be Lee Jordan. I really missed his Quiddich commentaries during GOF! >> Amen to that!! He's my favorite if you count his as "minor". I miss Wood too. Quidditch should be different [for me at least] without Ced and Wood....think when Lee, Fred, and Forge go! Ahh!!! I may love werewolves <3 <3 but a big black dog will <3 <3 always have my heart <3 <3 From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Jun 21 21:59:47 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:59:47 -0000 Subject: Why does Snape teach?/ Molly & Ginny/SHIP: Ginny&Draco Message-ID: <9gtqoj+5i0c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21275 Sincere thanks to Ebony for the things she wrote about teaching. I profoundly agree with her. Anyway, I was thinking about snape today and I seriously asked myself: Why has he become a *teacher*???? Jenny from ravenclaw wrote: "I am sure that he loves passing on his knowledge to his students, even if he isn't too crazy about them. I am waiting for the day when Harry really needs Snape's help (and I believe he will), because I think Snape will help him. As nasty as he is to a good portion of his students, I never felt that Snape hated teaching. I can't prove that - just call it teacher's intuition, I guess." Snape does not hate teaching, but he hates children: He hates their way of being, of behaving and thinking, their way of not "Understanding the beauty of the simmering cauldron...." (unexact quotation from SS, sorrry for that). Old Sevvie is a top potion maker, why did he not try and earn his money by opening a wizards' drugstore? Calculating Hogwarts wages: Dumbledore offered Dobby 10 galleons a week, for cleaning, cooking etc. I suppose that a teacher's income should at least be the double, which would make 80 galleons a month and 960 galleons a year (seems reasonable, as the price money the winner of the Triwizard Tournament gets would be about a year's income of a teacher) Certainly, by selling his potions, Snape would earn a lot more than that. Which brings us once more to the crucial question: why the heck does he teach? Possible answers: 1) He is an idealist and puts his teaching vocation above everything else. No, I certainly wouldn't say that. 2) He has another reason why he would rather stay at Hogwarts than anywhere else. Much more plausible, IMHO. Knowing about his troubled and certainly not unstained past as a DE who then *betrayed* Voldemort, the only secure place for him to go was logically Hogwarts. As the post of gamekeeper was already occupied, what else could he be than a teacher? And what else could he teach than what he was best at? As for what Jenny from ravenclaw or Ebony wrote about his mentor- relationship with Draco, I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you on this point. Even if I wouldn't say that he's showing favouritism towards Draco because he hopes to get some privileges out of it by way of Lucius (I don't think he's a materialist or ambitious kind of person the Way Fudge is), I'm sure that in Draco he sees the most "adult" (?n he worst sense of the word, because Draco is only copying his father) student of this particular class ( we don't know how he behaves to other classes and whom he favours there). And, of course, he's head of Slytherin House that welcomes "the most ambitious", and has also been in Slytherin- which explains perfectly why he's taking points from the others and giving them to Slytherin, mostly in the person of Draco: He wants his house to win because he's ambitious. (Think of his very sharp comments about the Quidditch Cup to McGonagall) Anyway, to me, Snape is one of the (alas, too many) teachers who have chosen this professsion not by vocation, but because of some other reason(in Snape's case, I think it's to be protected from the revenge of Voldemort)., and who therefore feel bad about teaching, not admitting this to themselves, but making their students pay for it by bullying them and treating them unjustly. As to Molly & Ginny: Ebony wrote: "The problem is, we don't know much about Ginny. Reading between the lines, I think she either has a very close relationship with her mother or her mother has simply kept her close." I thought about this and would have given the answer that Andrea gave: "I think that the only hint we've been given about Ginny's beliefs on this matter so far is in GOF when Molly is trying to talk Bill into letting her cut his hair and Ginny pipes up that she likes it long and Molly is being too old-fashioned." Ginny is certainly in a very difficult situation: she's the youngest of seven. assuming that Molly had her first child rather early (she and Arthur were a couple when they both were at still Hogwarts) let's say at the age of 20, that would lead to the following scheme (always based on the belief that witches, as Muggle women, are pregnant for 9 months and giving her a bit of a rest between each birth): Bill Molly 20 Charlie Molly 22 Percy Molly 27 (because Percy is in his 4th year when charlie is already working as a dragon keeper) Gred&Forge Molly 29 Ron Molly 31 Ginny Molly 32 Therefore, in GoF, Molly would be about 45. For the last 25 years, she has been playing- and IMHO gladly- the role of the loving wife and mother. she certainly had no easy time with her Muggle-loving husband who isn't ambitious in the least, never promoted and entirely relying on her when it comes to manage the household and getting their children school books and clothes out of his modest salary. In fact, there might be a conflict coming on between her and Ginny, who certainly won't fit into her mother's role but seems to have ideas quite of her own. Might Ginny fall in love with a Muggle???? Or decide to live an independent life of her own? Ginny strikes me as a possible rebel of the Weasley family, getting completely off the family line. She might even be attracted to Draco, merely because he could offer her enough power and money to pursue her very own goals in life. susanna From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Jun 21 22:43:55 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:43:55 -0000 Subject: IMPORTANT!!!Outrageous translations Message-ID: <9gttbb+dth2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21276 I just have to write this, partly because I'm doing literary translations myself, but mostly because I LOVE HP and can't stand these wonderful texts mutilated by- sorry to have to say so- STUPID translators. As I'm living in Italy, however not yet having read italian translations of HP book (suspecting the worst and being, alas, justified and more than that), I just visited one of the Italian HPhomepages to find THIS: Do you know how the names (and I just don't dare to think of the books themselves) are translated-I'd rather say mutilated? Albus Dumbledore- Albus SILENTE( which means albus the Silent) Minerva McGonagall- Minerva MCGRANITT(no comment on this one) Severus Snape- Severus PITON (could it be that the translator read Snape for SNAKE?? or was he/she just a fan pof the Monty Pythons???) Professor Quirrell- Professor RAPTOR (is this Jurassic Park???) Gilderoy Lockhart- Gilderoy ALLOCK (which doesn't signify anything in Italian, assure you) Mad-Eye Moody- MALOCCHIO Moody (but: malocchio means "the evil eye") Sibyl Trelawney- Sibilla COOMAN (this name, as Allock, doesn't have any sense in Italian, execpt if you think of the Sibylla of Cumae?!)) Prof. Flitwick- Prof. VITIOUS (read vicious- what the hell did they change his name for????) Prof. Sprout- Prof. SPRITE (this is the most outrageous, I hope it's at least for sponsoring reasons) Prof. Binns- Prof. RUF (not having any sense in Italian) As far as I'm concerned, I'm speechless. Anyway, I'll read at least one of the Italian translations and, if it's as bad as I suspect after having read the names' list, I strongly recommend handing the translator straight over to the Dementors. (furious) susanna From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 21 22:28:00 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:28:00 -0000 Subject: HP fanfiction?? Message-ID: <9gtsdg+uoaj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21277 Hey guys - I was just thinking about writing a little Harry Potter fan fiction just for the heck of it - I was wondering if maybe any of you out there have any ideas for a plot line? If so, e-mail me at HarryNHedwigNRon at AOL.com! Thanks - if the story is good, I may come back and post it here! From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 21 22:54:22 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:54:22 -0000 Subject: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <9gsq4v+be13@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gttuu+ari3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21278 Yes - I actually translated Hogwart's motto while daydreaming in my Highschool Latin II class... I just totally don't agree with the Latin grammer JK uses in her books (Not only here but in the spells as well...) I know what you are thinking - she's an author, not a Latin expert, and I understand that... I just am appalled at the way the words have no traditional endings (us, a, i, etc...) If she is to use Latin, use it right, otherwise just make up a random word - LOL... Ok. I am going overboard, I'll admit... Just wanted to get that off my chest!! From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Thu Jun 21 23:59:44 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:59:44 -0000 Subject: Already discussed this (was Re: IMPORTANT!!!Outrageous translations) In-Reply-To: <9gttbb+dth2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gu1pg+7o5c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21279 Go back to message #17791. The thread on Italian translation names starts there. I have a few corrections to your post, though: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > I just have to write this, partly because I'm doing literary > translations myself, but mostly because I LOVE HP and can't stand > these wonderful texts mutilated by- sorry to have to say so- STUPID > translators. > As I'm living in Italy, however not yet having read italian > translations of HP book (suspecting the worst and being, alas, > justified and more than that), I just visited one of the Italian > HPhomepages to find THIS: > Gilderoy Lockhart- Gilderoy ALLOCK (which doesn't signify anything > in Italian, assure you) Actually this is probably based on "allocco", which is literally a "horned owl", but figuratively means "dolt, nincompoop". > Sibyl Trelawney- Sibilla COOMAN (this name, as Allock, doesn't have > any sense in Italian, execpt if you think of the Sibylla of > Cumae?!)) Yup, that's probably what it is. The Sibyl of Cumae is called the Sibylla Cumana and "Cooman" approaches this pronunciation in English. ....Craig From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Fri Jun 22 00:10:42 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:10:42 -0000 Subject: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <9gttuu+ari3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gu2e2+s7ep@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21280 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose" wrote: > Yes - I actually translated Hogwart's motto while daydreaming in my > Highschool Latin II class... I just totally don't agree with the > Latin grammer JK uses in her books (Not only here but in the spells > as well...) I know what you are thinking - she's an author, not a > Latin expert, and I understand that... I just am appalled at the > way the words have no traditional endings (us, a, i, etc...) If > she is to use Latin, use it right, otherwise just make up a random > word - LOL... Ok. I am going overboard, I'll admit... Just > wanted to get that off my chest!! Actually, Meg, I think it's quite the opposite. I believe that Rowling is quite knowledgeable about Latin, but instead of using correct Latin, she chooses to only base her spells on Latin roots. After all, if the only trick to magic were to say everything in Latin, then anyone could do magic from learning Latin.... ....Craig From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 01:31:57 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:31:57 -0000 Subject: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <9gttuu+ari3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gu76d+e5j7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21281 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose" wrote: > Yes - I actually translated Hogwart's motto while daydreaming in my > Highschool Latin II class... I just totally don't agree with the > Latin grammer JK uses in her books (Not only here but in the spells > as well...) I know what you are thinking - she's an author, not a > Latin expert, and I understand that... I just am appalled at the > way the words have no traditional endings (us, a, i, etc...) If she > is to use Latin, use it right, otherwise just make up a random > word - LOL... Ok. I am going overboard, I'll admit... Just wanted > to get that off my chest!! Actually, former Classics Major speaking here... When some of the spells are done, such as "Imperio!" and "Crucio!" the form that these are taking is called the VOCATIVE, which means a command is being given. The endings you mention are not "traditional," they in fact have very specific meanings. She is not in fact just "throwing" Latin around. (She is probably quite well-versed in Latin.) Also, the spelling of the word you used above is GRAMMAR. End of Latin rant. Et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis... --Barb (who actually prefers using Greek for potions names in her fic because it's more obscure...) Get Psyched Out! HP_Psych at yahoogroups.com From tmayor at mediaone.net Fri Jun 22 01:47:23 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:47:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Teaching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9gu83b+dpi9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21282 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" wrote: > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rosmerta" wrote: > >if he *is* the most powerful wizard we > > > see in the books, what's he doing running a boarding school--> > > Jenny wrote: > > >See, now, this bothers me a bit. I think Dumbledore is in the best > >place possible. and Ebony wrote: Because of our perception that teachers are all talentless lugs, unfit to do > anything beside be overpriced babysitters...etc. etc. Now I'm writing: Uh, guys, I'm feeling a little misquoted here! My point was not that Dumbledore is wasting his time at Hogwarts, but rather the reverse (as the rest of my original post indicated): he's obviously there for a much larger purpose than ushering teenaged wizards through their OWLs on the way to some dead-end MOM job. Therefore, he sees the education of his students as central to the fight against Voldemort, to which he has dedicated his life, and so on and so on. At which point you can then logically insert all the wonderful things Jenny and Ebony said about education and teachers. ~Rosmerta who's all for ing, done with care of course From jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net Fri Jun 22 01:56:09 2001 From: jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net (Jennye & Michael Woolf) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:56:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Bloody Baron In-Reply-To: <9gtqoj+5i0c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0fabe$81e1e810$d8094a42@Dexter> No: HPFGUIDX 21283 OK, I checked the archives and couldn't find a single discussion on this, so I'm wondering... Why is Peeves (and all the other ghosts, so it seems) afraid of the Bloody Baron? Especially in SS/PS, he is used as a threat to keep Peeves in line (i.e. when Percy is trying to get the first years back to Gryffindor Tower he threatens Peeves with the BB. And when Harry et al runs into him while they are headed for the AStronomy Tower under the invisibility cloak, and Peeves senses someone, Harry disguises his voice and pretends to be the BB. Filch often threatens to report Peeves to the Bloody Baron) Also, in Nearly Headless Nick's conversation with the newly sorted Harry (SS/PS), Harry asks what the silvery blood is from on the BB, and Nick responds that he's never asked him. Is this important for future books? Will it come up again? Could the blood possibly be unicorn blood? Do I just have waaaaaaaaaay too much time on my hands? Inquiring minds want to know... Jennye [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 22 02:00:14 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma Moniz) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 02:00:14 -0000 Subject: Minor characters In-Reply-To: <9gtimh+695p@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gu8re+p4s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21284 I was reading GoF today for the umpteenth time while the power was out, and the character who tickled me the most was a little boy at the Quidditch World Cup, Kevin. He takes his father's wand and makes a slug the size of a salami. His mother comes out and stomps it, chastising her son for taking the wand and he cries, "You bust slug! You bust slug!" That just cracked me up so bad... ~Emma From celeste_827 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 02:14:28 2001 From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (celeste_827 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 02:14:28 -0000 Subject: Ron's Jealousy and Astrology Message-ID: <9gu9m4+4jb9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21285 If I remember correctly, it was in GoF that Ron and Harry were making up the false predictions for Divination, correct? Some people think that JKR doesn't have a high opinion of astrology, but she may have some experience in it. She mentions that Ron suggest that Harry write, "Why don't you get stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a friend?" She then proceeds to make Harry say, "Yeah, good idea... because... Venus is in the twelfth house." Or something to that effect. I noticed that the twelfth house on an astrological chart is Pisces, which is Ron's astrological sign. Venus is an astrological symbol that represents jealousy and envy. Getting stabbed in the back by a friend because Venus(jealousy) is in the twelfth house(Pisces, Ron's sign) The twelfth house also deals with the unconscious- dreams, hidden problems, and secret enemies. Color that with Venus's jealousy and you get the hidden problem of Ron's jealousy against Harry, which could lead to a betrayal, a "stabbing in the back". Is JKR trying to say something? I'm no expert in the field of astrology, this is based off what I can understand of this astrology book, but it looks suspicious nonetheless. Anybody have any opinion? - Celeste, who thought she'd throw in her two cents about the Ron/betrayal issue From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu Fri Jun 22 03:00:19 2001 From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <9gu76d+e5j7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21286 On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 blpurdom at yahoo.com wrote: > Actually, former Classics Major speaking here... > > When some of the spells are done, such as "Imperio!" and "Crucio!" > the form that these are taking is called the VOCATIVE, which means a > command is being given. The endings you mention are > not "traditional," they in fact have very specific meanings. She is > not in fact just "throwing" Latin around. (She is probably quite > well-versed in Latin.) Also, the spelling of the word you used above > is GRAMMAR. End of Latin rant. Actually, 'imperio' and 'crucio' are definitely not vocatives (which never end in -o), as a vocative is a noun form used in direct address, identical to the nominative in every declension except 2nd decl. masc. in -us, which has -e in the vocative. Neither are they imperatives, the verbal form used for commands. ('Crucio' is a correct 1st person singular present active indicative; 'imperio' is most likely 'impero', same form as 'crucio', with an -i- inserted.) I've posted about the spells and their Latinity before, message 12572. Basically, some are perfectly correct Latin, but many are not quite Latin in form (using an ending from the wrong declension, or so on; using an oblique case ending for no reason apparent to me) or have non-Latin roots. Personally, it doesn't bother me a bit that the Latin used isn't 'correct'; after all, if wizardry were simply a matter of speaking Latin properly, they'd be studying Classics, not magic, at Hogwarts. Probably like the wand, the words of the incantation are simply a focus for the witch/wizard's power, and not significant in and of themselves. They don't work for me, anyway. :) --jen :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From JamiDeise at aol.com Fri Jun 22 03:13:39 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:13:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasleys Message-ID: <77.167e600d.286411e3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21287 Re-reading GoF with my son tonight; the "Dark Mark" chapter ... got to the part where Arthur talks about the meaning of the Mark -- I can't quote directly because Alex is sleeping with the book, but he said something like, "You can't imagine how horrible it was to come home and find that Mark over your house, not knowing the horrors that awaited inside ..." (to which Alex said, "that's what Harry's house looked like.") It read to me like Arthur was remembering a time when he'd returned home to find the Mark over the Burrow ... could the Weasleys have been personally touched by the war against the Dark Lord more than we've been told? Could it have something to do with the reason they're poor? Jami From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Jun 22 03:51:29 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:51:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's Jealousy and Astrology In-Reply-To: <9gu9m4+4jb9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010621204802.00d0a140@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21288 At 02:14 AM 6/22/01 +0000, celeste_827 at yahoo.com wrote: >Is JKR trying to say something? I dunno, but Ron was right about Harry getting stabbed in the back by someone he thought was a friend (Pseudo-Moody), wasn't he? (More Ron-is-a-True-Seer evidence?) -- Dave From JenniferABacker at cs.com Fri Jun 22 03:50:37 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:50:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasleys Message-ID: <109.19739ce.28641a8d@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21289 You know that does make some sense. Also it ties into someone's theory about Ron having another brother. Some people Ron is a seer and it'd make more sense if he's the seventh son. Something about seventh sons having magical powers. Ah I don't remember ;x You got a smart little boy cause I don't think anyone noticed that? How old is he? He must look sweet sleeping with the book ;D j*Black I may love werewolves <3 <3 but a big black dog will <3 <3 always have my heart <3 <3 From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 22 03:57:10 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma Moniz) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:57:10 -0000 Subject: Weasleys In-Reply-To: <109.19739ce.28641a8d@cs.com> Message-ID: <9gufmm+773v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21290 > You know that does make some sense. Also it ties into someone's theory about Ron having another brother. Some people Ron is a seer and it'd make more sense if he's the seventh son. Something about seventh sons having magical powers. Ah I don't remember The Seventh Son is often gifted with psychic powers, at least according to European folklore. Legends in my own family pass down the Sight that way, at least on the Portuguese side. Seven is a magical number, a powerful number. I can almost see this being so in the Weasley household, especially given how Arthur talked about the Dark Mark. The poor dears...even though I have my issues with Ron, I still adore the Weasleys. ~Emma From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 04:26:07 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:26:07 -0000 Subject: Weasleys In-Reply-To: <109.19739ce.28641a8d@cs.com> Message-ID: <9guhcv+tqk7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21291 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JenniferABacker at c... wrote: > You know that does make some sense. Also it ties into someone's theory about > Ron having another brother. Some people Ron is a seer and it'd make more > sense if he's the seventh son. Something about seventh sons having magical > powers. Ah I don't remember ;x Actually, it is the seventh son of a seventh son who is supposed to have such powers. Well, we know that the Weaseys run to large families-- from our sample of one-- so Arthur could well be a seventh son. That still leaves us in search of Ron's missing older brother. hmm. Haggridd From oppen at cnsinternet.com Fri Jun 22 04:39:05 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:39:05 -0500 Subject: The Hogwarts Express Message-ID: <008401c0fad5$45b5e320$8bc71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 21292 Whimpering house-elf-style apologies if this has been brought up before, but something occured to me about something that seems to be pretty much taken for granted in the Potterverse: the Hogwarts Express. This would have to be a fairly major passenger train, and unlike (forex) automobiles, trains have to be fairly coherently scheduled to avoid accidents. Also, they require upkeep, maintenance, and crews. How is all this done? Are there wizards working "under cover" at British Rail to ensure that the Hogwarts Express gets the tracks it needs and schedule it so that it doesn't interfere with other train traffic? I doubt that British Rail operates it---apparently the food available on board is edible, which is a clue that British Rail is nowhere near its actual operations. My own impressions of British Rail food were of something that H.P. Lovecraft might have written about. And who provides the train crews? Are some wizards trained as engineers, firemen and the like, or do they get "seconded" from British Rail? Come to it, AFAIK there are no other steam locomotives operating on regular service in the UK---wouldn't parts and upkeep be a problem? There'd either have to be Muggles involved at all levels *sound of Lucius Malfoy and those who think like him having a fit of the Vapors* or some wizards would have to get these skills somewhere, or they'd have to use a _lot_ of Memory Charms. Maybe one day we'll find out about this, if Herself is kind and we're very very good. --Eric Oppen Gryffindor Redwood, phoenix feather, eight-and-a-half inches From oppen at cnsinternet.com Fri Jun 22 05:11:16 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:11:16 -0500 Subject: Harry's Doomed Admirer Message-ID: <009201c0fad9$c43aa9c0$8bc71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 21293 I wonder...if one of Harry's admirers is doomed to join the 'Eavenly Choir Invisibule in the next book, couldn't we all have been barking up the wrong tree? Hogwarts, and people at it, are fairly safe. Not so the rest of the wizarding world---_including the Burrow!_ I've got a horrid suspicion that the next victim is none other than...Molly Weasley! Think about it: She's at a known location that's less well-protected than Hogwarts and less under wizard eyes day-to-day than Diagonal or Knockturn Alleys, or, for that matter, the Ministry of Magic, she's apparently a competent-enough witch but we've seen no evidence that she's had any combat training (no reminisces about "Before I married your father, Ron, I was the belle of the Aurors...handsome wizards throwing themselves at my feet when I brought in another Death Eater...) and she could, to be blunt about it, be lured out fairly easily by a report that one of her children or Harry (or, for that matter, Hermione or her parents) was in danger. I hope to heaven I'm wrong; Molly Weasley is one of my favorite "minor" characters, and I envy Ron having such a mother (mine could, when in a bad mood, have eaten Voldemort for breakfast and picked her teeth with his bones) but this might be the Big Trauma that not only forces Ron to grow up some, but draws him and Hermione closer together. Comments? Eric Oppen Gryffindor Redwood, phoenix feather, eight-and-a-half inches From bugganeer at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 05:28:43 2001 From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:28:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Teaching In-Reply-To: <9gu83b+dpi9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gul2b+npbe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21294 Rosmerta wrote: >if he *is* the most powerful wizard we see in the books, what's he doing running a boarding school--> By staying headmaster, Dumbledore has a knowledge of hundreds of young wizards. When he needs something he can choose who is best suited for the task. He has contacts working for many area of the wizarding world. This includes MoM and Gringotts. He has made more impact on wizard society than Fudge. I would do more for a teacher/mentor than for a major or police chief. Dumbledore knows where he is needed and is powerful in many ways. Bugg Dumbledore friend and supporter. ______________________________________________________ Ebony Elizabeth Thomas wrote: >I think only teachers understand this. Nobody sane teaches for the money. We teach because of the 1001 "little rewards" that we get. Jenny wrote: > I think Dumbledore is in the best place possible. Rosmerta Wrote: > he's obviously there for a much larger purpose than ushering teenaged wizards through their OWLs on the way to some dead-end MOM job. Therefore, he sees the education of his students as central to the fight against Voldemort, to which he has dedicated his life, and so on and so on. At which point you can then logically insert all the wonderful things Jenny and Ebony said about education and teachers. > ~Rosmerta Jenny wrote: >People also do not realize how loyal kids are when they trust and like you. ___________________________________________________________ 'Those who can do, those who can't teach.' This is a quote that is most often used incorrectly. Many teachers choose to teach because that IS their field. Dumbledore doesn't need more money or more noticeable power. Yes, teaching is also a very good alternative for those who can no longer work in their field. [Former Quidditch players becoming managers, etc] Bugg Teacher friend and supporter. Thank you Jenny, Rosmerta, and Ebony From catlady at wicca.net Fri Jun 22 05:40:51 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:40:51 -0700 Subject: Lucius - Teachers - Snape - fanfic - Quidditch Message-ID: <3B32DA63.D495E60F@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21295 Susanna Pigwidgeon37 wrote: > And he has to be one of Voldy's closest DEs, > otherwise how could we explain V. barely mentions > that Lucius has not been searching for him more > intensely? Could Lucius be Voldie's (illegitimate) son, Yes, Lucius is Voldie's little pet (as in teacher's pet), and Voldie lets him get away with a lot of crap. At first I thought it was a social class snobbery thing: that the former Tom M. Riddle, raised in a orphanage to be some kind of lower middle class, is so impressed by the upper class aristocrat that it is a very big deal to him to be liked by the aristocrat. Even tho' he is really much more powerful than the aristocrat. But then I came up with some other ideas which conflict with the social class snobbery idea. One is that Tom Riddle, before he became a snake-man, was Lucius's GODFATHER rather than FATHER. That he was friend and ally of Malfoys before Lucius was born, and that his influence on Lucius's upbringing had something to do with how VERY evil Lucius turned out. Friend and ally of Malfoys -- the poor but ambitious aspiring Dark Wizard who finished school at age 17 or 18 and has no home to go to (as he was raised in an orphanage) could do a lot worse for himself than being taken on as a protege - permanent houseguest - co-conspirator by the Malfoys. I think the Malfoys have quite a library at Malfoy Manor, as well as money and social influence. The social influence part would come in handy when it comes to providing young Tom with an alibi for the murder of his father and paternal grandparents... I think it was Lucius's father who was head of the Malfoy family and member of the Hogwarts Board of Governors at that time and Lucius's older brother who was Tom Riddle's classmate in Slytherin House. He could have arrived in Malfoy Manor as the guest of the son of the house, and used the opportunity to charm, seduce, make an alliance with the more powerful father. Or the father, being on the Board of Governors, could have noticed the boy who won the Award for Special Services, and noticed his talent, ambition, and Darkness, all appealing to Malfoys... (I think Tom Riddle didn't recruit Death Eaters until he had turned into an immortal Snake Man, and I think he didn't turn from a human into a Snake Man until just before the beginning of his Reign of Terror -- which began about ten years before Harry was born, ie 1970, because of Dumbledore's statement "we've had precious little to celebrate these last eleven years.") Amber wrote: > Why didn't Lucius try and start his own plan for > World Domination? Er, I don't know. I'll have to > think of why. But I do believe that Lucius is > after the same thing as Voldemort, power, power, > and more power. Either Lucius habitually looks up to Voldemort/Riddle because that was a reasonable attitude when he was a baby and Riddle was an adult (see above) OR Lucius knows he can't gain World Domination on his own (knows he has to settle for Voldemort gaining WOrld Domination and Lucius being either the 'power behind the throne' or the spoiled pet) because Riddle has MUCH more magical power/talent than anyone around at the time except Dumbledore. Ebony wrote: > Yet how do we know that McGonagall, Snape, Lupin, > etc. aren't among the most powerful and talented > witches and wizards of the world? Ebony, I love all the passionately devoted things you and Jenny said about teaching. It never occurred to me to doubt that most of the Hogwarts professors (not Lockhart) are the most powerful, talented, intellectually brilliant, best educated witches and wizards of the British Isles. Not because there exist fantastically talented people who happen to be dedicated to teaching children, but rather because I think of Hogwarts as filling the place of a university (because JKR keeps saying there is no university for wizards). That is, the place where the most brilliant and accomplished scholars are given professorships and honor regardless whether they're any good at teaching. Susanna Pigwidgeon37 wrote: > Anyway, to me, Snape is one of the (alas, too > many) teachers who have chosen this professsion > not by vocation, but because of some other reason > (in Snape's case, I think it's to be protected > from the revenge of Voldemort)., and who therefore > feel bad about teaching, not admitting this to > themselves, but making their students pay for it by > bullying them and treating them unjustly. I AGREE!!! Meg Rose wrote: > Hey guys - I was just thinking about writing > a little Harry Potter fan fiction just for the > heck of it - I was wondering if maybe any of > you out there have any ideas for a plot line? You could write about any of the ideas that were speculated on this list in the last two days: What is the relationship between Lucius and Voldemort? Why are the other ghosts and the poltergeist scared of the Bloody Baron? Do Bill and Charlie send money home to their parents? (I have a feeling that Charlie is not well-paid: dragon wrangling could be one of those dangerous, unpleasant, highly-skilled jobs that people do for love rather than for money, like Muggle 'hot shot' fire fighters.) What would the rest of the characters do if Molly Weasley were killed by Death Eaters? Dfrankis wrote: > May I draw attention to the unusual scoring system > for the Hogwarts Quidditch league (and perhaps other > leagues)? The winning team is the one with the > highest overall score, not the one with the most points > on a 2 or 3 for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a lose basis. I put it in Installment Two of my Snape/Draco romance (posted to HPff back in March): Draco said, "Well, I do care, and I *am* a good player, and last year I won every match I played, 150 Slytherin to 140 Gryffindor, and that Potter still walked away with the Cup, on the points his Chasers racked up against Hufflepuff, and thumbed his nose at me." Draco didn't trouble to keep the pain out of his voice. I'm in the midst of writing up that event in more detail. -- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Jun 22 06:44:25 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:44:25 -0000 Subject: True Heirs Message-ID: <9gupg9+5etl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21296 after a more or less thorough search of the archives (finally understood how to do it- stupid,stupid Susanna, I've already ironed my hands for it), I think might rise this topic, hoping it's not OT. Could the fact that Lily & James' house and perhaps also Harry's birthplace are at Godric's Hollow not mean that Harry is the True Heir of Gryffindor, as Voldemort is the heir of Slytherin? and, if those two are true heirs, might there be two other True Heirs around? Female heirs of Rowena Ravenclaw and Helga Hufflepuff? They would of course have to be linked to the respective houses, either as teachers or students. Which brings me ito some dfficulties, as I can't yet see a character strong and elaborated enough to be up t the heir role. Or is the name of "Godric's Hollow"jus a red herring and the True Heir theme will never turn up again? susanna From vderark at bccs.org Fri Jun 22 12:17:36 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:17:36 -0000 Subject: The Hogwarts Express In-Reply-To: <008401c0fad5$45b5e320$8bc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9gvd10+qqi2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21297 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > This would have to be a fairly major passenger train, and unlike (forex) > automobiles, trains have to be fairly coherently scheduled to avoid > accidents. Also, they require upkeep, maintenance, and crews. How is all > this done? The Hogwarts Express is not a steam train. It does look like one and it acts like one in certain key ways, but it isn't one. It's a magical device. It borrows its form and it's intended function from real steam trains, but it isn't one. It's like the Ministry Cars, the Knight Bus, and Wizarding Wireless, which also borrow their form from Muggle technology but which are magical devices. Wizard "machines" aren't Muggle machines. They don't work on petrol or coal, they work by magic. In some cases, such as the Hogwarts Express, they are copied from Muggle machinery (and in this case it's clearly a copy of a Muggle device, since many parts of it would have no function in the Wizard version, but there they are, clearly copied from the Muggle original without an understanding of what those parts were for). The Hogwarts Express, powered by magic, goes where it's supposed to because that's what it's supposed to do. Magic is more than anything else intention made reality. The Hogwarts Express chugs away up north because it is magicked to do so. So what about the track? Someone on this list some time ago came up with a perfect and wonderful solution: the Hogwarts Express uses existing track for most of the journey, but just squeezes past the other trains on the line or cars at the crossings. It follows the same pattern as the other magical transportation devices we've seen, the Knight Bus and the Ministry Cars, and just somehow manages to jump/squeeze/slip through. It's not heard by Muggles because, as Stan Shunpike points out, "they don't hear nuffink, do they." The driver (engineer to us Americans) and the guard (brakeman? porter?) and the lady with the cart are the equivelent of Ernie Prang and Stan Shunpike: trained to operate magical devices using magic, but not really understanding the technology from which their devices are copied. Ernie shifts the wheel back and forth but doesn't really steer the bus along the road specifically, he's making the magic work. One turn could send them to the left side of the motorway or halfway to Torquay, depending on what he intended it to do. The train itself looks like a train from the outside and pretty much looks like a train on the inside, although I think it's likely that it adjusts it's interior dimensions for the task at hand (there is always one more compartment, but never an extra, it seems). Unlike the Knight Bus, which looks fairly similar to a bus on the outside but nothing like a bus on the inside, the Hogwarts Express seems to be to most appearances a real train. But it isn't. It's magic. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon which has a page about the Hogwarts Express http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 15:06:19 2001 From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:06:19 -0000 Subject: Speculation about Rita Skeeter In-Reply-To: <9gt62j+d47f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gvmtb+93ka@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21298 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bess_va at l... wrote: > so, what is the consensus (if there is one) about *what* Rita will do? > > When we last see her, she's under Hermione's physical control (glass > jar with an unbreakable spell), with a forced promise for Rita not to > publish for a year. Now Rita was present (as a bug) during at least > part of the hospital wing scene between > Dumbledore-Fudge-Harry-Snape-Sirius (we don't know how much she > heard). So she may know Sirius is an animagi, she may know Dumbledore > has been harboring a fugitive, she may know that Mr. Weasley will > probably be conducting gross insubordination at the Ministry, she may > know that Snape goes off to do "something", she may know Dumbledore > believes Voldy is back, she may know Fudge ain't playing and threatens > Dumbledore. (what I find incomprehensible is that Hermione doesn't > tell any adult about this! this woman is dangerous! she ain't nice! > and isn't a promise made under duress unenforceable morally and > legally?) > > So if she does know all these things, I don't think she's gonna fly to > Remus's house and say "Hey guys! Guess what! I'm an illegal animagi > also and I want to join in your war against Voldy". I don't think > she's gonna be like Fudge, and pretend this isn't happening. I wonder > if she'll try to find Voldy...that would be one heck of a scoop > wouldn't it? I bet 5 chocolate frogs that she'll at least inform the > MOM that Dumbledore was harboring Sirius (one way of getting rid of > Dumbledore), and that Sirius can now be found at the residence of one > Remus Lupin. It seems to me that Rita never does anything unless it helps her in some way, so I doubt that she joins with Fudge. I also don't think she would be much use for Voldemort because her writing is primarily sensational - not propaganda. However, I wouldn't be surprise to see her go after Voldmort - to get the big scoop. Hmmmm. Also, it seems like their are very strict penalties for being an undeclared animagi, so Hermione's threat may very well prevent Rita from saying anything. And finally - Welcome! - Jamie P.S. Strangely enough - I think I had a dream about Rita the beetle last night. From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Fri Jun 22 15:46:18 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:46:18 -0000 Subject: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <9gu76d+e5j7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gvp8a+er16@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21299 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., blpurdom at y... wrote: > When some of the spells are done, such as "Imperio!" and "Crucio!" > the form that these are taking is called the VOCATIVE, which means > a command is being given. The endings you mention are not > "traditional," they in fact have very specific meanings. Actually, this isn't correct. The command form of verbs is the imperative. The Latin imperative (which is a mood) has two tenses (present and future) and two voices (active and passive), with 2d and 3d person singular and plural forms in the future, and only 2d person forms in the present. However, neither "imperio" nor "crucio" is an imperative in Latin. "Crucio", which is an actual Latin verb (crucio, cruciare, cruciavi, cruciatus), is in the first person singular present indicative active = "I crucify". As a present active imperative, it would be "cruci" in the singular, and "crucite" in the plural. "Imperio", in contrast, is the ablative or dative of the noun "imperium" = "an order". The vocative of "imperium" is simply "imperium", as neuter nouns do not change between the nominative and the vocative. [The corresponding verb is "imperare", with present imperative forms of "impera" and "imperate".] By way of correction: the vocative is not a command, nor does it signify necessarily that a command is being given. The vocative is simply the form used to address someone (or occasionally something). For most nouns, it is identical to the nominative, except in the 2d declension for masculine nouns, in which case, "-e" is added to the genitive stem. E.g. servus --> serve = "Slave!", dominus --> domine = "O Lord!", etc. All this being said, I think that JKR probably knows a reasonable amount of Latin AND chose deliberately to vary the endings, as these are *spells*. When everything else in the books seems to indicate great attention to detail and much research and thought, it is unreasonable that she would be consistently careless here.... ....Craig From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jun 22 15:52:30 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:52:30 -0000 Subject: Ron's Jealousy and Astrology In-Reply-To: <9gu9m4+4jb9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gvpju+s6cf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21300 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., celeste_827 at y... wrote: > If I remember correctly, it was in GoF that Ron and Harry were making > up the false predictions for Divination, correct? Some people think > that JKR doesn't have a high opinion of astrology, but she may have > some experience in it. > > She mentions that Ron suggest that Harry write, "Why don't you get > stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a friend?" She then > proceeds to make Harry say, "Yeah, good idea... because... Venus is in > the twelfth house." Or something to that effect. > > I noticed that the twelfth house on an astrological chart is Pisces, > which is Ron's astrological sign. Venus is an astrological symbol that > represents jealousy and envy. Getting stabbed in the back by a friend > because Venus(jealousy) is in the twelfth house(Pisces, Ron's sign) > > The twelfth house also deals with the unconscious- dreams, hidden > problems, and secret enemies. Color that with Venus's jealousy and you > get the hidden problem of Ron's jealousy against Harry, which could > lead to a betrayal, a "stabbing in the back". > > Is JKR trying to say something? I'm no expert in the field of > astrology, this is based off what I can understand of this astrology > book, but it looks suspicious nonetheless. Anybody have any opinion? I can't confirm nor answer any of the astrology facts you brought up, but I think the devaluation of divination in the books is a "red herring". In PS/SS, the "divination is a faulty system" is set up. Harry tells Hermione of the Centaur's prophecies. She replies that Professor McGonagall says divination is inaccurate and Harry shouldn't take it seriously. However, the Centaur's aren't completely wrong are they? Jump tp PoA, and we're introduced to Trelawney and more "divination is a faulty system". But Trelawney was correct about Voldemort rising, she's half-right about Parvati's "beware of a red-haired man" and (imo) she was right about Hermione leaving the class. I have a feeling that the divination thing is a cautionary tale about making hasty decisions without examining it objectively. Milz From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 15:55:18 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasleys In-Reply-To: <9guhcv+tqk7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010622155518.10218.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21301 --- Haggridd wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JenniferABacker at c... > wrote: > > You know that does make some sense. Also it ties > into someone's > theory about > > Ron having another brother. Some people Ron is a > seer and it'd make > more > > sense if he's the seventh son. Something about > seventh sons having > magical > > powers. Ah I don't remember ;x > > > Actually, it is the seventh son of a seventh son who > is supposed to > have such powers. Well, we know that the Weaseys run > to large > families-- from our sample of one-- so Arthur could > well be a seventh > son. That still leaves us in search of Ron's > missing older brother. > hmm. > > Haggridd > > Actually that is a very plausable theory. I can see if happening especially if you compare Bill's age to Charlie's, Charlie's age to Percy's, Percy's age to the Twins, the Twins' age to Ron, and Ron's age to Ginny. There is a rather large gap between Charlie and Percy and compared to the gap between any of the other siblings so it is very easy to see there being another child in there that died one way or another. Danette Just my two Knuts Who is now thinking about a story to explain the missing Weasley __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Jun 22 16:10:21 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:10:21 -0000 Subject: Ron's Jealousy and Astrology In-Reply-To: <9gvpju+s6cf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gvqld+1q33@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21302 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: I think the devaluation of divination in the books is a "red > herring". I tend to agree with you on the Divination points, because there have already been predictions made (the biggest one being Trelawney's at the end of PoA). However, I stand by my belief that Trelawney herself is, for the most part, "a right old fraud". I believe that JKR created her to show us that not all teachers have unquestionable knowledge (I know I don't), and some teachers pretend to be more than what they really are. It is easy to say that Trelawney's comments to her students on the first day of class are accurate preditcions, but it is just as easy to say that Trelawney simply knew about the students before they came to her class. For example, everyone already knows about Harry and Voldie (as Hermione so wisely pointed out), and it is quite possible that Trelawney knew that Neville is a clumsy and nervous wizard (especially since we found out in GoF that the Longbottoms were both well known and well liked in the wizard world). People who claim to be psychics in the real world do similar things. They listen to tones of voices on the phone, and in person, check out how people dress, sit, move, etc. It is more an art of reading people than it is predicting people's lives. It is also easy for psychics to make vague comments sound like real predictions - "You will have hardships ahead with your family," and so forth. Trelawney strikes me as someone who is caught up with the idea of being a Seer - the way she dresses and speaks in that misty voices are indications of that. She also has something in common with Snape, as she likes to intimidate her students by predicting their deaths or threatening them to not disclose final exam answers or terrible things would happen. The fact that Trelawney can make real predictions occasionally doesn't really mean all that much to me. She clearly does not have any real control over her abilities and does not even appear to know that she can See at all - "I wouldn't presume to predict something as far fetched as that!" (or some such similar comment). Because she doesn't know that she can predict things, I don't think she is the real deal. I absolutely believe that there are people who have psychic abilities (and I believe that people can definitely see ghosts), but she is not one of them. She's too caught up in her image to control and perfect her talent if indeed she really has one. --jenny from ravenclaw, whose dislike for Trelawney is obvious****** From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jun 22 16:07:23 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:07:23 -0000 Subject: Why does Snape teach?/ Molly & Ginny/SHIP: Ginny&Draco In-Reply-To: <9gtqoj+5i0c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gvqfr+lh26@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21303 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > > As to Molly & Ginny: > Ebony wrote: > > "The problem is, we don't know much about Ginny. Reading between the > lines, > I think she either has a very close relationship with her mother or > her > mother has simply kept her close." > > I thought about this and would have given the answer that Andrea gave: > > "I think that the only hint we've been given about > Ginny's beliefs on this matter so far is in GOF when > Molly is trying to talk Bill into letting her cut his > hair and Ginny pipes up that she likes it long and > Molly is being too old-fashioned." > > Ginny is certainly in a very difficult situation: she's the youngest > of seven. assuming that Molly had her first child rather early (she > and Arthur were a couple when they both were at still Hogwarts) let's > say at the age of 20, that would lead to the following scheme (always > based on the belief that witches, as Muggle women, are pregnant for 9 > months and giving her a bit of a rest between each birth): > > Bill Molly 20 > Charlie Molly 22 > Percy Molly 27 (because Percy is in his 4th year when > charlie is already working as a dragon keeper) > Gred&Forge Molly 29 > Ron Molly 31 > Ginny Molly 32 > > Therefore, in GoF, Molly would be about 45. For the last 25 years, > she has been playing- and IMHO gladly- the role of the loving wife > and mother. she certainly had no easy time with her Muggle-loving > husband who isn't ambitious in the least, never promoted and entirely > relying on her when it comes to manage the household and getting > their children school books and clothes out of his modest salary. > > In fact, there might be a conflict coming on between her and Ginny, > who certainly won't fit into her mother's role but seems to have > ideas quite of her own. > Might Ginny fall in love with a Muggle???? Or decide to live an > independent life of her own? Ginny strikes me as a possible rebel of > the Weasley family, getting completely off the family line. She might > even be attracted to Draco, merely because he could offer her enough > power and money to pursue her very own goals in life. > >From what little is written about Ginny I think we do know quite a bit about her. She loves her brothers: crying and running after the Hogwarts Express in SS/PS. She has a sense of morality: she was the one who said Ludo Bagman should know better than to wear his Quidditch robes around the Muggle Camp Site Manager. She has compassion: she semi-scolded Fred when he joked about Scabbers death in front of Ron and gave Harry a hand-made 'get well' card after Lockhart de-boned him. We know she has shares the similar insecurities of girls her age from what she wrote to Tom Riddle. And Ginny knows how to get what she wants: she wanted to go to the Yule Ball so she went with Neville. Ginny has a vantage point as most "youngest children" have: she can see how and where her brothers have messed up and with any degree of insight she could avoid them. My best childhood friend and I were the youngest and only girls of our families. We both avoided the problems of our elder siblings. Milz From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 22 17:32:15 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:32:15 -0000 Subject: Trelawney, Divination, and Seers In-Reply-To: <9gvpju+s6cf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9gvvev+uhkm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21304 Milz wrote: I think the devaluation of divination in the books is a "red > herring". > > In PS/SS, the "divination is a faulty system" is set up. Harry tells > Hermione of the Centaur's prophecies. She replies that Professor > McGonagall says divination is inaccurate and Harry shouldn't take it > seriously. However, the Centaur's aren't completely wrong are they? > Jump tp PoA, and we're introduced to Trelawney and more "divination > is a faulty system". But Trelawney was correct about Voldemort > rising, she's half-right about Parvati's "beware of a red-haired man" > and (imo) she was right about Hermione leaving the class. > > I have a feeling that the divination thing is a cautionary tale about > making hasty decisions without examining it objectively. > > Milz Part of this issue is that the whole area of foretelling/predicting is complex and contains a variety of types of activity. Each of these has its own definition in English, which may or may not be precisely the same as JKR's meaning in the Potterverse. Trelawney teaches Divination, which appears to be defined (in HP) as actively trying to find out what is in the future. It includes a version of astrology. So far, it has been presented as either a complete failure (my view) or a partial failure (view as I understand it of those who think Hermione leaving, Lavender's rabbit etc aren't just lucky hits). The most striking thing about Trelawney's true prediction is that it has nothing to do with divination - it just happened. (Dumbledore's view of T's ability is beautifully conveyed in his remark to Harry: Harry says something to the effect that Trelawney acted strange, and D replies 'er, stranger than usual, you mean?' - one of my favourite moments in the canon). MacGonagall affirms the reality of some form of prediction when she says True Seers are very rare. We don't know what a seer is - Trelawney would like us to think it's someone who uses their Eye in conjunction with her techniques to get results, but we don't know if it's technique-based in reality. The word would imply that it involves seeing things - rather different from the apparent verbal channelling of Trelawney's moment of truth. Ron apparently says things almost at random which later turn out to be true (in which case Percy beware). This isn't quite like either of the above, though is verbal rather than visual. Fred and George's bet on Ireland seems similar, though I'd like to know the source of their confidence in hazarding their entire savings. (BTW, prediction of this sort must be pretty rare, or Bagman wouldn't go round trying to bet with every wizard he meets.) The centaurs are concerned with the future, but dispute among themselves over the fundamental meaning of what they are doing. Bane and Ronan take the classic passive view that the future is 'out there' and we wait for it to happen. Firenze, who gets author and reader sympathy, implies both that the heavens can be wrong and that even when they are right, it can be right to try to avert what they foretell. It's not clear that what the centaurs do has any but the most superficial resemblance to Trelawney's astrology. 'Mars is bright tonight' is unlike any astrology I've ever heard of, but my experience is pretty limited. Harry has dreams, which correspond most closely with the idea of a seer (though a true pedant might want a seer to have waking visions and use some other term for a dreamer). These however are more like normal dreams in that they reveal the meaning of things that Harry already has inside himself, such as his patronus. (No, I don't understand the significance of Malfoy chasing him on a dragon.) Finally, it's worth noting that visions of the *past*, let alone the future, require considerable interpretation. Tom Riddle uses true scenes to mislead. Dumbledore must constrain sharply what Harry understands from the Pensieve. I'd say that there's plenty of evidence that, in the HP universe, real knowledge about the future is gained. Divination as a technique for wizards so far is failing badly. Dumbledore, Lupin, MacGonagall all think Trelawney is a complete fraud. Centaurs may have techniques that work. It's possible that Hermione is being set up to wrongly discount *all* prediction. The value and meaning of information about the future is moot, as Firenze and Dumbledore both state in their different ways. David, realising he's jumped the gun on the next chapter summaries (though who can foretell whether they will come to pass?) From indigo at indigosky.net Fri Jun 22 19:10:07 2001 From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:10:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's Doomed Admirer In-Reply-To: <009201c0fad9$c43aa9c0$8bc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9h056f+ofs3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21305 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > Hogwarts, and people at it, are fairly safe. Not so the rest of the > wizarding world---_including the Burrow!_ I've got a horrid suspicion that > the next victim is none other than...Molly Weasley! > > Think about it: She's at a known location that's less well- protected than > Hogwarts and less under wizard eyes day-to-day than Diagonal or Knockturn > Alleys, or, for that matter, the Ministry of Magic, she's apparently a > competent-enough witch but we've seen no evidence that she's had any combat > training (no reminisces about "Before I married your father, Ron, I was the > belle of the Aurors...handsome wizards throwing themselves at my feet when I > brought in another Death Eater...) and she could, to be blunt about it, be > lured out fairly easily by a report that one of her children or Harry (or, > for that matter, Hermione or her parents) was in danger. I don't see that happening. She may not have any wizarding training, but she can do a good bit of 'Accio!' which means she can summon pots and pans and knives and saws and chairs to zoom around her, between her and an assailant. Not to mention all the potentially dangerous stuff the twins have made that she's confiscated. Arthur is not a nitwit git of a wizard. I'm pretty sure he has all kinds of charms, hexes, and jinxes on the house to protect his family, and such charms and hexes and jinxes are added by the kids as they grow up, constantly reinforcing the protections, layering them, and making it effectively impossible to make a successful attack on the house [because you have 11 different magic styles in that house when all the Weasleys are in it]. At least, I HOPE that's what has been done. I also doubt the boys would stand by knowing Voldemort's back without putting protections on their Mom, whom they know is Harry's mother figure. And Molly would probably rush out to see one of her kids' clock hands turn to "MORTAL PERIL," but Harry has no such clock hand. Plus, Molly knows Dumbledore has the entire Hogwarts staff looking out for him. Much as she'd like to rush to his aid, she knows he's looked after, and by some of The Best. I doubt she'll go rushing off to save him if Rita Skeeter [who's been proven fraudulent to Molly] prints an article saying "BOY WHO LIVED IN DANGER FOR HIS LIFE!" Just my two Knuts. Indigo also Griffindor Phoenix Feather, Holly, 10 inches -- must not be Fawkes! From pennylin at swbell.net Fri Jun 22 20:02:56 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:02:56 -0500 Subject: Ginny & Molly: Mother-Daughter Thoughts Message-ID: <3B33A470.5AC7507@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21306 Hi -- There've been some discussions about what sort of relationship Molly likely has, and particularly *will have* in the future, with daughter Ginny. I'm no expert on mother-daughter relationships from the mother's perspective *yet* (my daughter being only 2 mths old), but I have a daughter's perspective. I think fanon Ginny -- rebellious & spirited -- is possible because I think Molly has been over-protective & in fact smothering of Ginny. Ginny seems very very young in PS/SS and CoS. In PS/SS, we don't know her exact age IIRC. We see her holding on to her mother's hand as they walk through King's Cross. Then, we hear her whining about wanting to go on the train & goggle at HP and her mother hushes her, telling her she's already seen him. We then see her being told that she's too young to go to Hogwarts. Then, our last impression of Ginny is her running after the train, laughing & crying. These actions don't seem like a 9/10 yr old girl to me. This behavior seems to me to be of a much younger child (child expert that I am -- ). In any case, it's clear that Molly keeps a firm hold on Ginny at that point anyway. And, when first reading this one, I definitely wouldn't have pegged Ginny to be as old as she was. In CoS, we again see Molly holding Ginny's hand in at least one instance, reinforcing the image of a much younger child. At least my memory of being 11 or 12 would *not* include willingness to hold my mother's hand in public. Perhaps it is another British cultural difference. But, it's another reason why I have viewed Ginny as being very young. She's the same age as our Trio were in PS/SS and yet contrast the difference in how she's depicted. Don't get me wrong: young does not necessarily mean weak. But, IMO, this depiction only reinforces the one-dimensional stereotypical "Ron's younger sister" characterization of Ginny. She's not so much her own person as she is Ron's little sister & the youngest Weasley, who's still very much under her mum's thumb. The same thing holds true in the later books. When you compare how she is depicted against how the Trio were in the previous volume, she comes off looking much younger than just one year younger than Ron. So, is Molly overly protective? Is it because Ginny is the only girl, the youngest child or some combination of both factors? Will Ginny continue to be stifled by her mother & excluded from the Trio? I know, I know. The Ginny fans will all point to her strong character as evidenced by the pre-Yule Ball scene. I guess it's possible. She did tell Molly she was being old-fashioned when Molly criticized Bill's earring & hair. But, where was she during the Final Task & its aftermath? Did her mum scivvy her off to Gryffindor tower, perhaps under the care of the twins? Was she watching the Task with friends from her year, and if so, why didn't she join her family & Hermione when it was apparent that Harry was in trouble? Doesn't this raise some doubts about whether she does in fact still have a crush on Harry? Why wouldn't she stand her ground with her mum in this case, and if she didn't put up a fight, why not? If H/G is to happen, there just has to be more development of Ginny individually & Ginny interacting with Harry and the Trio in Book 5. IMO. All in all, I'm anxious to see what happens with Ginny, particularly with regard to her relationship with her mum. Penny From bess_va at lycos.com Fri Jun 22 19:59:52 2001 From: bess_va at lycos.com (bess_va at lycos.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:59:52 -0000 Subject: Speculation about Rita Skeeter In-Reply-To: <9gvmtb+93ka@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h083o+ctk3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21307 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., beyondthelamppost at y... wrote: > > Also, it seems like their are very strict penalties for being an > undeclared animagi, so Hermione's threat may very well prevent Rita > from saying anything. yes, I thought about that as soon as I pressed the "send" button. There is after all, more than one way to skin a cat (or kneazle). She could feed the information to the MOM anonymously (an unmarked letter delivered by an unmarked owl?), or through other means (maybe a slip to another "journalist" who thinks s/he would be scooping the great Rita Skeeter, or by a new "pen name") she definatly has to protect her own interests but I don't think she's gonna let Hermione curtail her life for a whole year. > > And finally - Welcome! > Thanks, this is fun. > - Jamie > > P.S. Strangely enough - I think I had a dream about Rita the beetle > last night. I've dreamed I was in an English garden, *my* newly inherited English garden (have no idea how I aquired it LOL I haven't had any "English" relatives since the 18th century). I couldn't get to one section of it, I physically couldn't cross a path. As I stood there flummoxed, I heard a voice say something about an impressive display of foxgloves and wolfbane. I turned in confusion because all I saw was hollyhocks. Standing by the gate was *WHO*! I don't know! I can't remember that part of the dream. But whoever it was, s/he saw something different in the garden than I did. And I knew they were magical. From a_serber at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 20:04:06 2001 From: a_serber at yahoo.com (a_serber at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:04:06 -0000 Subject: Book5 Message-ID: <9h08bm+68o6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21308 when is book 5 coming out? i heard novemeber 17 but then my friend said in 4 weeks. are either true? From litalex at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 23:10:22 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:10:22 +0800 Subject: the Latin in the spells (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwart's Motto, help!) References: <9gvp8a+er16@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00c801c0fb70$846e3d60$e705bacb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 21309 Hello, > However, neither "imperio" nor "crucio" is an imperative in Latin. > "Crucio", which is an actual Latin verb (crucio, cruciare, cruciavi, > cruciatus), is in the first person singular present indicative > active = "I crucify". As a present active imperative, it would be > "cruci" in the singular, and "crucite" in the plural. True and true, but I think "crucio" makes more sense than "cruci" as a spell, 'cause "crucio" probably has the implication of "I crucify [you]" but "cruci" is telling the object to go crucify someone. The latter doesn't sound like it can hurt the object of the spell... I'll leave the "imperio" for someone else. little Alex _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 23:55:38 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:55:38 -0000 Subject: Book5 In-Reply-To: <9h08bm+68o6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h0ltq+77mv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21310 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., a_serber at y... wrote: > when is book 5 coming out? > > i heard novemeber 17 but then my friend said in 4 weeks. are either > true? Actually, the Movie for book 1 is coming out around Novermber 17th. Book 5 is scheduled to come out early next year but will probably be even later than that (You can't rush a writer, you know! LOL) From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 00:05:21 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:05:21 -0000 Subject: Has anyone read this book?? Message-ID: <9h0mg1+tr4c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21311 I was reading this book I have recently purchased out of curiosity, titled "Harry Potter and the Bible". I don't have the authour handy, as I have lent the book to a friend. But my point is that I was TOTALLY APPALLED by the opinions put forth in this book: He claims that Harry Potter is totally immoral, satanic, and should be banned because it "apparently is trying to lure young children into the world of wicca and modern day witchcraft...Yadda yadda yadda...." But it was explaining how Harry is constantly lying, cheating, stealing, and overall breaking rules and he never is punished and how this is a bad influence on children... I swear - this book is a total piece of BS!! Seriously... It's like saying they should ban Snow White because in involves witches and witchcraft! From edjbroker at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 00:09:04 2001 From: edjbroker at yahoo.com (edjbroker at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:09:04 -0000 Subject: Has anyone read this book?? In-Reply-To: <9h0mg1+tr4c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h0mn0+psl1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21312 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose" wrote: > I was reading this book I have recently purchased out of curiosity, > titled "Harry Potter and the Bible". I don't have the authour handy, > as I have lent the book to a friend. But my point is that I was > TOTALLY APPALLED by the opinions put forth in this book: He claims > that Harry Potter is totally immoral, satanic, and should be banned > because it "apparently is trying to lure young children into the > world of wicca and modern day witchcraft...Yadda yadda yadda...." > But it was explaining how Harry is constantly lying, cheating, > stealing, and overall breaking rules and he never is punished and how > this is a bad influence on children... I swear - this book is a > total piece of BS!! Seriously... It's like saying they should ban > Snow White because in involves witches and witchcraft! *************************** Yes, it's amazing how HP is about Good over Evil and sticking up for your friends can be put forth as "the Devil's work". Of course as early as 150 years ago, we burned mostly women because they were witches! Ignore the bible thumpers...or pray they get a real life! From ebonyink at hotmail.com Sat Jun 23 01:31:53 2001 From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony Elizabeth Thomas) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:31:53 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Has anyone read this book?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21313 Hi, Meg-- For informed and reasoned commentary about Harry Potter and the Bible, try "What's a Christian to Do With Harry Potter?" by Connie Neal: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-1877586-8061526 I own this book and love it to pieces. It's a complete overview of the debate--and even included chapters on how to use HP to help kids "grow in goodness"... and even how you can use HP to preach the gospel, as a growing number of ministers have used HP illustrations in their sermons! --Ebony >From: "Meg Rose" > >I was reading this book I have recently purchased out of curiosity, >titled "Harry Potter and the Bible". I don't have the authour handy, >as I have lent the book to a friend. <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< Ebony AKA AngieJ ebonyink at hotmail.com Come join us in Paradise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise Visit Schnoogle.com: http://www.geocities.com/heiditandy/ Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From devika261 at aol.com Sat Jun 23 01:51:49 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:51:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's Jealousy and Astrology Message-ID: <124.ab75fb.28655035@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21314 In a message dated 6/21/01 10:16:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, celeste_827 at yahoo.com writes: > If I remember correctly, it was in GoF that Ron and Harry were making > up the false predictions for Divination, correct? Some people think > that JKR doesn't have a high opinion of astrology, but she may have > some experience in it. > > She mentions that Ron suggest that Harry write, "Why don't you get > stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a friend?" She then > proceeds to make Harry say, "Yeah, good idea... because... Venus is in > the twelfth house." Or something to that effect. > > I noticed that the twelfth house on an astrological chart is Pisces, > which is Ron's astrological sign. Venus is an astrological symbol that > represents jealousy and envy. Getting stabbed in the back by a friend > because Venus(jealousy) is in the twelfth house(Pisces, Ron's sign) > > The twelfth house also deals with the unconscious- dreams, hidden > problems, and secret enemies. Color that with Venus's jealousy and you > get the hidden problem of Ron's jealousy against Harry, which could > lead to a betrayal, a "stabbing in the back". > > Is JKR trying to say something? I'm no expert in the field of > astrology, this is based off what I can understand of this astrology > book, but it looks suspicious nonetheless. Anybody have any opinion Wow, that's interesting. I have to admit, I felt a bit uneasy when I was reading that part of the book...especially given what we know about JKR's ability to drop hints in seemingly innocuous phrases. I really don't know much about astrology, but if what you say is correct, I think it could very well be a foreshadowing of something more to come. I've already said that I can see Ron's envy causing him to do something that he, and most likely many others, will regret (how sad!). Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From devika261 at aol.com Sat Jun 23 02:14:08 2001 From: devika261 at aol.com (devika261 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:14:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] newbie Speculation about Rita Skeeter Message-ID: <12.e8dba80.28655570@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21315 In a message dated 6/21/01 12:27:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bess_va at lycos.com writes: > So if she does know all these things, I don't think she's gonna fly to > Remus's house and say "Hey guys! Guess what! I'm an illegal animagi > also and I want to join in your war against Voldy". I don't think > she's gonna be like Fudge, and pretend this isn't happening. I wonder > if she'll try to find Voldy...that would be one heck of a scoop > wouldn't it? I bet 5 chocolate frogs that she'll at least inform the > MOM that Dumbledore was harboring Sirius (one way of getting rid of > Dumbledore), and that Sirius can now be found at the residence of one > Remus Lupin. > Or what if she publishes her sensational article about the shocking story behind the imprisonment of Sirius Black, the MOM's injustice, and the true story of Peter Pettigrew...nah, she couldn't possibly be that helpful. Devika [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 23 02:34:35 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 02:34:35 -0000 Subject: Missing Weasleys and QWC ( was Re: Weasleys) In-Reply-To: <20010622155518.10218.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9h0v7r+th1h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21316 Danette wrote: "Actually that is a very plausable theory. I can see if happening especially if you compare Bill's age to Charlie's, Charlie's age to Percy's, Percy's age to the Twins, the Twins' age to Ron, and Ron's age to Ginny. There is a rather large gap between Charlie and Percy and compared to the gap between any of the other siblings so it is very easy to see there being another child in there that died one way or another." --We've discussed this before, I think, but the idea is interesting. I went back and read the passage where Arthur describes the Dark mark (the last pages of chapter nine GoF, page 142 in the american edition specifically) with the idea that he had lost a child in the manner he's talking about. I picked up some interesting undertones. "The terror it inspired...you have no idea, your're too young. Just picture coming home and finding the Dark Mark hovering over your house and knowing what you're about to find inside..." Mr. Weasley winced. "Everyone's worst fear...the very worst..." Why did Mr. Weasley wince? He worked for the ministry so it could easily be that the pain he feels at remembering is for other people. However because he's a ministry offical he would me in more danger, no? The idea that a "missing Weasley" who died in VWI is plausible, but even if this didn't happen his recollection makes me think he has had some personal experience. (a relative or close friend?) In this scene all the Weasley children, Mr. Weasley, Harry and Hermione are present. If one of the Weasley children *did* die then who knows about it? Obviously not Ron since he doesn't even know what the dark mark is. By that same token neither would Ginny; their being the youngest. What about Percy? Bill and Charlie would have been alive at the time so they'd surely know. I'm not sure about Percy since we don't know when this possible event could have possibly taken place. After Arthur makes the above statement there was silence for a moment, and then Bill says "Well, it didn't help us tonight, whoever conjured it." (This sentence confuses me the more I read it. Is he saying that they "didn't help" by scaring away the DEs? How *could* the Dark Mark "help" them?) He goes on to say "It scared the Death Eaters away the moment they saw it. They all Disapparated before we'd got near enough to unmask any of them. We caught the Robertses before they hit the ground though." Is Bill changing the subject to avoid painful memories? If a Weasley died why wouldn't Ron know about it by now? Am I speculating to much? Scott BTW, another thing that I *know* we've discussed before, but I can't remember is why Molly Weasley didn't apparate to the campsite if she was so worried (and rightly so), or just check the clock (I remember this). Can she not apparate? From tmayor at mediaone.net Sat Jun 23 02:44:01 2001 From: tmayor at mediaone.net (Rosmerta) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 02:44:01 -0000 Subject: Ginny & Molly: Mother-Daughter Thoughts In-Reply-To: <3B33A470.5AC7507@swbell.net> Message-ID: <9h0vph+on42@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21317 Penny's insightful post on Ginny and her Great post, Penny! See what a little motherhood does for your POV? . I'm afraid all your excellent observations point to one thing: IMO Ginny's just not a real, fully developed character, despite her brief starring role in CoS. I don't fault the author--we couldn't *read* a book in which every person who walked on stage was given a full rounded history--but Ginny's particularly anemic, and a little curiously so, given her prior prominence to the plot. I just don't think it's physically possible for a child of either sex who's last in a line of 7 not to be way *way* more street-smart than Ginny is. It's a struggle to keep the younger of just two kids from becoming too hip, and by time you reach the last of seven, well, it's impossible not to have exposed her to way more than she appears to have absorbed, even if we're just talking gross bodily humor. She's a very strangely depicted character, actually, given that the rest of the Weasleys are rather with-it and happening. Having said all that, I do think that Ginny and Molly probably have a well-balanced relationship. Sometimes having all those boys in the family neutralizes some of the very intense female-female vibes that can over-electify the mother-daughter relationship. I would take the fact that she *didn't* tell her parents about Tom Riddle's diary as a sign (however disastrously misguided it was) that she was trying to grow up and pull away. And even though Ginny does, as Penny said, act very very young, I don't think Molly smothers her; she (Molly) seems in every other aspect far too practical for that. And while she is certainly aware of Ginny's feelings, she doesn't commit that cardinal Mom sin and make overly familiar comments (as when Harry first visits the Burrow and Ginny is peeking out behind doors, Molly doesn't make those "oh I see your boyfriend's here" jokes that can start a lifetime of M-D strife.) And Molly seemed sufficiently shocked and clueless at the end of Cos to indicate that she wasn't talking to Ginny on a what'd- you-have-for-lunch-today basis. ~Rosmerta who has three brothers and could burp the alphabet by the time she was Ginny's age From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 23 03:20:51 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:20:51 -0500 Subject: Final Blazon w/discussion, LONG, mostly for Steve (was Re: Heraldry Class References: <20010619063212.45210.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B340B12.BD1BA18A@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21318 Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > Are we a frustrated Herald Amanda? Nope. I *are* a herald. I'm in a medieval group, so I get to really do it. > Actually I have a tincture question. (I haven't seen this coat of > arms yet but will be getting Brit editions soon). Are the coats color > pictures? If not what's the blazon? > Thanks. Yeesh. You *would* ask me this. I'm supposed to be getting the Official Blazon together for Steve, and am some months behind. I was sure this was in one of the referenced messages, oh well. I've got to have missed a few. Here ya go. 1. Someone asked about the hatchings (the patterning behind each animal). The drawing in the book is not in color; it's a pen-&-ink. The background patterns behind each animal are not heraldic "hatchings" (i.e., standard ways of indicating color on a drawing by using certain established patterns [i.e., azure [blue] is horizontal lines, Or [gold] is dots, etc.]). We can tell because the blazons (descriptions of the arms in heraldic terminology that indicate what's on the shield, its position, and its color) for the House arms as given in the books don't agree with what you get if you follow those background patterns as hatchings. The background patterns on the pen-&-ink are simply contrasting patterns, there to enhance a black and white drawing. The colored version is *gasp* correct, which means Hell froze over and somebody in Marketing actually read the books and got the colors right when they colored the drawing in. Or JKR corrected them. 2. The full blazon: Steve, pay attention, this is mostly for you, late but correct. The best way to blazon the whole thing is elegant, but not helpful with describing the colors: "Quarterly Gryffindor, Slytherin, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw, on an inescutcheon Or the letter H sable." To ensure clarity, you must then continue and blazon the arms of the Houses separately, so I actually find this rather cumbersome. There's a different way, though. Even though the appearance of the House coats are well known to the audience/readers, their *blazons* are not, so the other method is to include the individual blazons of each quarter in the longer blazon (it gets really awkward if the blazons for each quarter are really, really long, but these aren't). There's more than one style of doing this. The goal of blazon is clarity, not form-- "Quarterly, 1st: Gryffindor (gules a lion Or), 2nd: Slytherin (vert a snake erect argent), ..." [House name precedes its blazon] "Quarterly, 1st: gules a lion Or, for Gryffindor, 2nd: ..." [House name follows its blazon] Anyway. I'd tend to put the blazons of each House in the main blazon. So the full formal blazon, as I would write it, is as follows (here you go, Steve!): Hogwarts, School of. Quarterly: 1st, Gryffindor (gules, a lion rampant to sinister Or), 2nd, Slytherin (vert, a serpent embowed erect argent), 3rd, Hufflepuff (Or, a badger rampant regardant sable, marked azure), 4th, Ravenclaw (azure, an eagle displayed Or), overall in fess point on an inescutcheon Or the Roman letter "H" sable. Note on Hufflepuff - my blazon here does not agree with the the colored version as marketed, which shows the badger is sort of gray, with the standard black cheek stripes. But we all know from the book that the badger is black. A totally black badger with no cheek stripes looks like a stunted dog, so it has to have its markings visible. The choice would be silver or white, to contrast with the gold background. Hence my choice of blazon. 3. Errata for those of you who aren't asleep yet: Most heraldic terminology comes from medieval French roots, since when true heraldry developed, French was the language of court and diplomacy. I've gone through my blazon above and defined all the jargon terms for all you lucky readers (but mostly for Steve). They're in order as you find them as you read the blazon. gules = red rampant = rearing up, with one hind foot off the ground (often incorrectly drawn as salient, "leaping", which has both hind feet down). It's the most "unnatural" of the positions of animals found in heraldry, and probably originated from a desire to "fill up" the area of the shield. to sinister = facing the sinister side of the shield (the *bearer's* left, the left of an imaginary person behind the shield, holding it, so to the viewer it looks like it's facing to the right). Or = gold. I adhere to the old-fashioned practice of capitalizing this prince of metals, but not any of the other tinctures (heraldic terms of color). vert = green embowed = in a knot (the standard position for serpents) erect = upright. For a snake, it means it's rearing its head up like that. argent = silver badger = you know this one, of course, but I wanted to mention that an archaic term for the badger is the brock, so if this is as old a coat as it seems, it should probably be blazoned a brock. Oh, well. regardant = looking back over its shoulder. Simply "guardant" is looking directly out from the shield at you. marked = for a badger, this means the cheek stripes. azure = blue eagle displayed = the standard position for an eagle, looking a bit like it flew into a window (about as unnatural as "rampant" and for the same reason, it fills all the space nicely). Wings spread and wingtips up (if they were spread with tips pointing down, you must specify "wings inverted"), feet splayed to each side, head looking up and to the dexter (bearer's right, see "sinister" above). I think I've seen Ravenclaw's eagle drawn with wings inverted, but I'm going from the drawing in the book I've got here, and the wingtips are up. overall = lying over the top of the other stuff, i.e., it can obscure them (cover them up) if necessary in fess point = in the middle of the shield, as opposed to honor point (in the middle left/right, but above center) or base point (in the middle left/right, but below center). inescutcheon = a small shield used as a charge on a coat of arms. A shield itself, such as you would paint a coat of arms onto, a full shield, is an "escutcheon." Roman letter = just so you know it's not some weird alphabet or something. Probably extraneous. sable = black. Anyone who actually read all of this gets ten points to their House. Congratulations. You may win someday on a game show because of me. I do expect a cut. --Amanda Binns [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joym999 at aol.com Sat Jun 23 03:43:11 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:43:11 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #6 Results Message-ID: <9h138f+8v4j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21319 Well, the results are finally in for HP4GU Contest #6 ? and quite a contest it was, too. In this contest you were asked to find words or phrases from the Potterverse that began with certain letters in 5 different categories. There were many entries from people who clearly scoured the HP books, looking for obscure People, Places, Beings, Things and Terms. In fact, people were so intent on finding obscure words that the Person entries for the letter H consisted of 2 Olive Hornbys and 2 Hannah Abbots, but only 1 Hagrid, 1 Hermione, and no Harrys at all! Players were asked to choose a word ? SNAPE, GHOST, or MAGIC, and submit 25 words or phrases beginning with each letter from the word chosen in each of the five categories. Each unique entry was worth 2 points, making 50 points the highest possible score for any one entry. Eleven people submitted entries for the word GHOST. The highest score was 34 points, by Mark Navarrete (mark_weasley at hotmail.com), who has gone through all the footnotes in QTTA and FB with a fine- toothed comb. Anne (old_wych at yahoo.com) and Lea (f95lean at dd.chalmers.se) also did quite well, scoring 30 points. The word MAGIC was the most popular, with 12 players sending in entries. The winner of this one was also Mark Navarrete (mark_weasley at hotmail.com), with 30 points. Elena (elena.maestri at unipr.it) and Brandon (bak42 at netzero.net ) also did quite well, scoring 29 and 28 points, respectively. The SNAPE contest attracted only 6 entries. The winner was, yep, you guessed it, Mark Navarrete (mark_weasley at hotmail.com), with 38 points. Catherine (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) and Joy (joy0823 at earthlink.net) each got 34 points. Clearly, Mark is desperately in need of a 12-step program for his HP addiction. However, I am instead sending him an HP Journal and owl bookmark to reward his amazing obsessiveness. (This is also known as the Vander Ark Prize, given only to people who truly impress me with their fanaticism.) Thanks very much for participating, everyone! A list of all the words and phrases from the contest entries can be found in the Files section. ?Joywitch From jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu Sat Jun 23 03:47:43 2001 From: jfaulkne at eden.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <9h0l20+ocgh@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21320 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > However, neither "imperio" nor "crucio" is an imperative in Latin. > "Crucio", which is an actual Latin verb (crucio, cruciare, cruciavi, > cruciatus), is in the first person singular present indicative > active = "I crucify". As a present active imperative, it would be > "cruci" in the singular, and "crucite" in the plural. *frowns* Unless I'm missing something very obvious, a present active imperative from 'crucio' would be 'crucia', singular, 'cruciate', plural. First conjugation. But I'd also be willing to bet that you never, ever find an active imperative, since crucio occurs nearly always in the passive. It also means something more like 'to torment, esp. mentally', rather than 'to be crucified', in non-ecclesiastical Latin.[1] 'Cruciare' and 'cruciamini' would really be the most natural Latin, I think. In fact, if I were coming up with a spell in correct Latin, I'd probably use the future imperative, 'cruciator', since spells, like legal language, should use the formal, solemnizing future imperative. Along these same lines, little alex wrote: > True and true, but I think "crucio" makes more sense than "cruci" as > a spell, 'cause "crucio" probably has the implication of "I crucify > [you]" but "cruci" is telling the object to go crucify someone. > The latter doesn't sound like it can hurt the object of the spell... I agree; the active imperative would make much less sense than a 1st person present active indicative (crucio). The finite form (with a personal subject) also makes you think a little more about the wizard casting the spell as the agent. It's not like a cloud of torture is floating around, waiting to descend and torture victims, but rather the wizard casting the crucio spell must actively torture the victim: *I* am torturing you. Much more chilling that way, isn't it? > I'll leave the "imperio" for someone else. As I said yesterday, I really believe 'imperio' is intended to be a 1st person singular present active indicative, like 'crucio' or 'accio', with an -i- introduced by analogy. Analyzing it as a dative or ablative noun makes little to no sense. (But in form, it could be that, sure.) [1] As in the poem of Catullus: odi et amo. quare id faciam fortasse requiris. / nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior. --jen :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From joym999 at aol.com Sat Jun 23 03:57:15 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:57:15 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #7 Message-ID: <9h142r+jcif@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21321 This week's contest requires some speculation. We all know from the HP books that while some wizards and witches live in places like Hogsmeade, and others live in out-of-the-way places like The Burrow, some, like Mrs. Figg, live in muggle communities. These wizards and witches must have to pass as muggles by disguising their magical characteristics. But some of us muggles are suspicious. Are there people who you think are really wizards or witches in disguise? Tell me who they are and why you think that they must be magical. For example, I think that Boston Red Sox pitcher Pedro Martinez must be a wizard. (I apologize to non-Americans and/or non-baseball fans who won't understand this.) If you have ever seen him pitch, you know what I mean. Somehow, his pitches defy the laws of physics -- they shoot out of his glove at almost 100 miles per hour, then seem to turn 90 degrees and fall to the ground over home plate. No way he is not using magic. Anyway, that is the contest. Send your entry to me at HP4GUcon at aol.com (I will send you a notification that I have received your entry; if you don't get one re-send it to joym999 at aol.com) Remember, don't post your entry to the list! I will be extending the deadline for this contest, since I get the impression that 4 days is not enough time for most people. If you have any thoughts about this, email me. I will decide the date for the submission deadline based on what everyone thinks. --Joywitch From catlady at wicca.net Sat Jun 23 04:04:00 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:04:00 -0700 Subject: Skeeter - Trelawney - Ginny - Blazon - That Book Message-ID: <3B341530.9AE962E5@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21322 beyondthelamppost wrote: > It seems to me that Rita never does anything > unless it helps her in some way, so I doubt > that she joins with Fudge. I also don't think > she would be much use for Voldemort because her > writing is primarily sensational - not propaganda. > However, I wouldn't be surprise to see her go > after Voldmort - to get the big scoop. Hmmmm. > Also, it seems like their are very strict penalties > for being an undeclared animagi, so Hermione's > threat may very well prevent Rita from saying anything. I deeply resent the noxious Ms. Skeeter having *stolen* my personal name, Rita. Why not Dita Skeeter like Dita Beard? She could join with Fudge to get a Pardon for being an unregistered Animagus, or in order to get the Order of Merlin, or in order to get a job that paid more for less work... depending on what she values in life. She's a pretty good snoop, good at finding the truth even tho' she doesn't publish the truth, and thus could be useful to the Dark Side as an intelligence officer (like a spy). Or stirring up public rage against innocent parties by way of protecting perpetrators... If there are very strict penalties for being an unregistered Animagus (one more strike against Sirius), then if she did something bad and Hermione punished her by turning her in to MoM, she would have nothing to lose by telling the rest of her information against the good guys. Hermione would be aware of that: it's the Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) theory of deterrence that she would have learned from reading history books about the Muggles's Cold War. Devika wrote: > Or what if she publishes her sensational article > about the shocking story behind the imprisonment > of Sirius Black, the MOM's injustice, and the true > story of Peter Pettigrew...nah, she couldn't > possibly be that helpful. She would do it if it was to her own advantage. If the DAILY PROPHET only cares about big circulation, not about supporting Fudge or supporting Lucius Malfoy, then if Fudge spited her, she could tear him and his Ministry down for punishment. Or there could be another amoral politician who wants to replace Fudge, and the rival and Skeeter could make a deal to build up the rival by tearing down Fudge, if the rival didn't also hate Sirius and Dumbledore (who would benefit by the side effects of that method of tearing Fudge down). My implication being that part of the deal is that the rival would reward Skeeter for her help. Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote of Dear Sybil: > I believe that JKR created her to show us that > not all teachers have unquestionable knowledge > (I know I don't), and some teachers pretend to > be more than what they really are. She already showed that with Lockhart. Rosmerta wrote: > I just don't think it's physically possible for > a child of either sex who's last in a line of 7 > not to be way *way* more street-smart than Ginny is. Does it make a difference that the older children were away at boarding school for 3/4 of each year since age 11? (September 1 to a two week break for Xmas to very late June) Amanda wrote: > I wanted to mention that an archaic term for > the badger is the brock Which is why the Badger Animagus (registered) in my LilyFic has the nickname Brock. An article about badgers in SMITHSONIAN magazine IIRC in 1999 said the name 'badger' comes from the idea of a heraldic 'badge', referring to those bold white stripes. (Do I recall correctly that the 'badge' is the logo worn by followers, such as the Rose of England, Thistle of Scotland, Shamrock of Ireland, etc?) Are a critter's markings allowed to violate the no-color-on-color azure on sable) rule? I believe that the Sinister lion and Regardant brock on the School arms are Dexter and Gardant on the House arms (and the respective Founder's arms), but were changed on the Quartered arms in order to face center. I believe that was allowed back in the days when William Marshal made his living fighting in tournaments. Even if it wasn't allowed, other people's rules can be forced on Hogwarts School no more than on Alaric Morgan of Deryni. I want the Snape family to have long ago grabbed themselves invalid arms reflecting their claim to be descended for Salazar Slytherin, and all I've thought of so far is green background (field vert) marked with a big black X (saltire sable) with a silver serpent plopped down over it -- if I said vert, ON a saltire sable, a serpent argent, wouldn't the serpent be small enough to fit entirely on the saltire? And I keep trying to figure out if the Crest of the Malfoys is the Head of Janus crowned with laurel, the Masks of Comedy and Tragedy, or the Kallisti Apple (an apple Or marked with the Greek letter Kappa: K). Meg Rose wrote: > I was reading this book I have recently purchased > out of curiosity, titled "Harry Potter and the Bible". > I don't have the authour handy, as I have lent the > book to a friend. But my point is that I was > TOTALLY APPALLED by the opinions put forth in this > book: He claims that Harry Potter is totally immoral, The author of that book, Richard Abaness, posted in this egroup back in April. He was reasonably polite but no one in the group agreed with his ideas. He seems to view any violations of rules (e.g. going out after curfew) as a Sin, and any telling of a lie as a sin. I get really Annoyed when people accuse me of Situation Ethics meaning No ethics, but I do believe that the situation makes a difference: even tho' I care very much about truthfulness, the people concealing Anne Frank's family in the attic SHOULD have lied when the Gestapo asked them: "Do you know where any Jews are hidden?" In addition to a higher rule superseding a lower rule, I believe that some rules are just stupid, and obeying them is matter of self-preservation (from Law Enforcement) rather than Ethics. Abaness claimed not to agree, and if we had been talking one on one, I would have asked about Christian martyrs killed for practising their faith in Ancient Rome or Communist China: were they sinning by refusing to obey the national laws against Christianity? Abaness seemed concerned that a child who sometimes breaks rules and sometimes is impolite is a Bad Role Model. Personally, the point at which I knew I LIKED this Harry Potter book was page 53 of Book 1, when Dudley threatened to shove Harry's head down the toilet and Harry turns it into an insult against Dudley and then runs away before Dudley has finished figuring out the insult. I was So Pleased that I wasn't being asked to read about some unrealistic, boring, annoying, inhuman Plaster Saint of a Perfect (according to adults) Child. I was glad that the Dursleys hadn't been able to beat all the spirit out of him. --- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 23 04:29:05 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 04:29:05 -0000 Subject: Has anyone read this book?? In-Reply-To: <9h0mn0+psl1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h15uh+kaq4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21323 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., edjbroker at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose" wrote: > > I was reading this book I have recently purchased out of curiosity, > > titled "Harry Potter and the Bible". > > But it was explaining how Harry is constantly lying, cheating, > > stealing, and overall breaking rules and he never is punished and > how > > this is a bad influence on children I can think of another major literary work in which major characters continually lie and break rules and seemingly profit from it Genesis Chapter 20: Abraham lies about his relationship with his wife Sarah - saying that she is his sister, and implyies (in a blatant and rather sleazy effort to curry favor) to King of Gerar, Abilemelech, that he can "fix them up" - - and gets away with it! Genesis Chapter 27: Jacob tricks his blind father Isaac into giving hin the blessing intended for older brother Esau - and once again gets away with it! (He certainly has his share of trials, but he becomes the patriarch, not the deserving Esau) Genesis Chapter 34: Jacob's daughter Dinah is raped by Scechem, the son of King Hamor of the Hevites; her brothers devise a singularly gruesome and excruciating revenge for him and his entourage which for some reason is almost never mentioned in sermons and Sunday School lessons (although it has been in mine!) Genesis Chapter 44 & 45: Joseph (often described as the "Ron Weasley of Scripture") is allowed to get away with lording it over his older brothers merely to satisfy his childish need for revenge A lot more examples from the Hebrew Scriptures - but may a higher moral standard be discerned in the Gospels? Well, it seems that one of the perennial complaints that the Pharisees lodged against Jesus is that the man felt he could just plain old ignore all the Rules. JC was clearly the kind of guy who would have snuck down to Hogsmeade without his guardian's signature (changing water into Butterbeer all the while) Matthew Chapter 12 1: At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2: But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath." 3: He said to them, "Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5: Or have you not read in the law how on the sabbath the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are guiltless? 6: I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7: And if you had known what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8: For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath." 9: And he went on from there, and entered their synagogue. 10: And behold, there was a man with a withered hand. And they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath?" so that they might accuse him. 11: He said to them, "What man of you, if he has one sheep and it falls into a pit on the sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12: Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath." 13: Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, whole like the other. 14: But the Pharisees went out and took counsel against him, how to destroy him. And there was that later unpleasantness around Golgotha due to certain failures to follow the established rules. Of course as > early as 150 years ago, we burned mostly women because they were > witches! Whose "we"? Why were mostly women burned (why not entirely?) Can you document any 1851 witch burnings? Why did they stop in 1852? (AFAIK, in America, all we ever did was drown 'em) Ignore the bible thumpers...or pray IRONY (ka-BOOM!) they get a real life! No, what everyone needs to thump 'em even harder (i.e., actually read them, and that includes all you Sec Hums out there) - hey, even Nietzsche said that compared to the Bible, "everything else is merely literature." - CMC (Presbyterian Sunday School Teacher) From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 23 04:31:14 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:31:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weasleys References: <109.19739ce.28641a8d@cs.com> Message-ID: <3B341B91.64C96221@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21324 JenniferABacker at cs.com wrote: > You know that does make some sense. Also it ties into someone's theory > about Ron having another brother. Some people Ron is a seer and it'd > make more sense if he's the seventh son. Something about seventh sons > having magical > powers. Ah I don't remember ;x It was me. I'm revealing my age, but in keeping with the spirit of providing support when we invoke Archivus Referendum, here ya go: 1809 - I speculate that Ron might have had a missing brother, which would make him a seventh son. 1817 - discusses the attributes of seventh sons of seventh sons in a couple of cultures. 1826 - says that a power of a 7/7 born under a caul was divination (!) And on an even older thread called "the gap in the Weasley family". Other messages in this thread involve establishing the gap via intricate, detailed, mind-numbing comparisons of references of dates of winning Quidditch cups and the like. Look them up if you want. I dozed off. 1666 - Original question from Heather, noticing the gap. 1694 - Me, suggesting that there might have been other Weasleys that fell to Voldemort 1714 - Penny's opinion on the gap and other possible causes 1720 - complaint that if there were others, they'd be mentioned (Vicki) 1725 - why other sibling(s) might not be mentioned (sister mary lunatic) 1728 - why other sibling(s) are not mentioned (me) I haven't been following the latest Weasley family discussions, but I also remember somewhere postulating that Molly didn't look at the clock when she was worried about the family at the Cup, because she was afraid to, because she'd seen the worst on it before. As for Apparating, wasn't Ginny with Molly? Ginny can't Apparate, and Molly can't "carry" her when *she* does, so unless there was someone close by and trustworthy to guard Ginny--and I can't imagine, if the Dark Mark were seen and danger was in the air, that Molly would leave Ginny alone--Molly *had* to stay at the Burrow. --Amanda, the tired, the life-less, the anal [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 04:43:19 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blazon In-Reply-To: <3B341530.9AE962E5@wicca.net> Message-ID: <20010623044319.25619.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21325 --- Rita Winston wrote: > Amanda wrote: > An article about badgers in SMITHSONIAN magazine > IIRC in 1999 said the > name 'badger' comes from the idea of a heraldic > 'badge', referring to > those bold white stripes. (Do I recall correctly > that the 'badge' is the > logo worn by followers, such as the Rose of England, > Thistle of > Scotland, Shamrock of Ireland, etc?) > > Are a critter's markings allowed to violate the > no-color-on-color azure > on sable) rule? Okay time to dust off my rusty herald's skills (I'm part of a middle ages reinactment group). If the critter is normally portrayed in it's natural or "proper" colors then it is NOT considered a violation of the no color on color rule. > > I want the Snape family to have long ago grabbed > themselves invalid arms > reflecting their claim to be descended for Salazar > Slytherin, and all > I've thought of so far is green background (field > vert) marked with a > big black X (saltire sable) with a silver serpent > plopped down over it > -- if I said vert, ON a saltire sable, a serpent > argent, wouldn't the > serpent be small enough to fit entirely on the > saltire? > First yes if you blazoned it that way then the emblazon would show the serpent as entirely on the saltire. However here you ARE violating the color on color ruling if you where to change that the say : Vert, on a saltire sable fimbriated argent a serpent argent. Then you would be within legal bounds with your arms. Fimbriated by the way means that you have outlined something with the named color. By doing this you separate the two colors so you remove the color on color problem. By doing it in silver(argent) you make sure you stay within the 2 colors-one metal rule. Hope that helps. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 04:56:01 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Missing Weasleys and QWC ( was Re: Weasleys) In-Reply-To: <9h0v7r+th1h@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010623045601.26830.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21326 --- Scott wrote: > Is Bill changing the subject to avoid painful > memories? If a Weasley > died why wouldn't Ron know about it by now? Am I > speculating to much? > > Scott > Reading over the passage(about 6 or 7 times with your words in mind) I think that you might have something there. You can very well see that Bill IS changing the subject, and very quickly at that. As far as Ron knowing about it it would really depend on how the particular sibling was lost. It's entirely possible that if it's particularly painful to think about (much less talk about it) that the younger children (and I include the Twins in this) have never heard about the missing child. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From meckelburg at foni.net Sat Jun 23 05:05:21 2001 From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 05:05:21 -0000 Subject: Molly- why didn't Ron/Harry help? Message-ID: <9h182h+stsd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21327 Hi! When I read the part about the Easter-Eggs I wondered why Ron or Harry didn't react after they realised that Molly believed Rita. If my Mum had thought bad about a friend of mine and I knew why, I'd try to correct her. I imagine letter like this: *** Hi Mum! Thanks for the lovely Easter presents. We are having a lot of excitement here at the moment. I don't know if you read it, but Rita wrote an absolutely stupid letter about Hermione and Harry in WW ( you know how she writes, not a word is true of course!). Harry and I are helping Hermione with opening all the Howlers and cursed letters from all the witches, who believe that rubbish. I hope, everything cools down, when Rita finds someone new to pick on. I have to get back to homework, greetings to Dad and Percy ( and Bill and Charlie when you hear from them) Ron *** Now why didn't Ron or Harry think of doing something? They knew Hermione suffered. Just my 2 Sickles on the point Mecki -------------------------------------------------------------------- Neville's aim was so poor that he kept accidentally sending much heavier things flying across the room - Professor Flittwick for instance. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 23 05:57:47 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 05:57:47 -0000 Subject: Goblet of Fire (filk) Message-ID: <9h1b4r+k0m3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21328 The Goblet of Fire (To the tune of Ring of Fire) Dedicated to Jenny of Ravenclaw THE SCENE: Gryffindor Common Area. Enter HARRY, RON & HERMIONE, each of them facing away from the others) HARRY There was this Tri-Wiz cup And I think that it set me up I didn't think that I'd compete But that mug sure turned up the heat My name came from the Goblet of Fire I was not involved But Ron thinks that I'm a liar I've been spurned spurned spurned Claims I conspired, that's what transpired HERMIONE Fights between friends aren't fit As when they're both half-wits These boys, they are so hard-wired To act like in bad satire RON His name came from the Goblet of Fire He can't tell me how So our friendship should expire I feel stern stern stern Toward that broomflyer I once admired HERMIONE Harry got snagged by the Goblet of Fire And each boy thinks that The other should some trust acquire They can't learn learn learn To just desire to call ceasefire .. (Exit Severally) - CMC From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sat Jun 23 06:04:19 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:04:19 +0100 Subject: Has anyone read this book??/+ADMIN note References: <9h0mg1+tr4c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <007a01c0fbaa$583d5340$e73670c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 21329 Meg Rose: < >> A while back, we had a brief and fiery discussion with Richard Abanes, the author of Harry Potter and The Bible, and for a while after that he remained a member of the list (I think he has unsubbed now). If any recent joiners are interested in what was said, you will find some colourful posts in the archives by searching on "rabanesss" - part of the author's e-mail address - or reading the thread, from #17513 onwards. I warn you: in places, it ain't pretty... Also of interest is a full and excellent critique of the book, among several others, on Amazon.com, written by Penny Linsenmayer (owner of this list). ADMIN NOTE The mod squad would like to remind everyone to respect the diversity of this list and avoid making comments referring to "bible thumpers" or similar comments that paint any religious group with a broad brush. Whilst the intention in making such comments may be to refer to those who are more extreme in their views on Harry Potter, they could easily offend those of less extreme opinion. Thanks for your cooperation. Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything to do with this club: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 23 06:08:40 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma Moniz) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 06:08:40 -0000 Subject: Death Eater Similarities Message-ID: <9h1bp8+ps02@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21330 I checked the archives and everything, and I saw that no-one had made the commentary that the Death Eaters are strikingly similar to the Klu Klux Klan Stateside. I realise that this rather excludes the Brits from a lot of commentary and I apologise for that. But growing up in an area with high KKK activity, as well as being a target for said activity, it seems strikingly similar. Never knowing when you might be hit, dreading seeing the mark outside your house (Dark Mark for the DE, burning cross for the KKK), never knowing if they let your family get out unscathed, uncertain of who is a member and who isn't.... I was discussing this tonight, and the things the Death Eaters and the KKK share in common realy hit home when I read GoF for the umpteenth time this week. I can understand that fear, now. Are there other groups, aside from everybody's favourite, the Nazis, who share characteristics like this? I understand the Death Eaters are a compilation of all hate groups, but they seem to function more like some than others... ~Emma From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Sat Jun 23 07:41:44 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:41:44 -0000 Subject: enigmatic Bill,"that book", Trelawney, the missing Weasley child Message-ID: <9h1h7o+rvps@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21331 Scott wrote: "After Arthur makes the above statement there was silence for a moment, and then Bill says "Well, it didn't help us tonight, whoever conjured it." (This sentence confuses me the more I read it. Is he saying that they "didn't help" by scaring away the DEs? How *could* the Dark Mark "help" them?) He goes on to say "It scared the Death Eaters away the moment they saw it. They all Disapparated before we'd got near enough to unmask any of them. We caught the Robertses before they hit the ground though." You're not te only one to be confused about this sentence. I tried the old trick reading it aloud, putting the emphasis on different words (it *didn't* help us tonight, it didn't *help* us tonight, it didn't help *us* tonight, it didn't help us *tonight*), but didn't get much more sense out of it. Because who has ever been *helped* by the Dark Mark? It would be clear if he said something like "It made our work even more difficult tonight" which would be the "it didn't *help* us tonight" version. Edjbroker wrote "Yes, it's amazing how HP is about Good over Evil and sticking up for your friends can be put forth as "the Devil's work". Of course as early as 150 years ago, we burned mostly women because they were witches!" I really dislike commenting on books I haven't read, but as the HP vs. religion discussion seems to be going on everywhere (an Austrian bishop went as far as saying HP books were the work of the devil), I would like to say that probably none of those who make similar statements, has read the books. Which would be sufficient to get them off their (to me, very strange and medieval) opinions: Just think of Dumbledore's speech to the students at the end of GoF where he says that the time has come to decide between what is right and what is easy. This is practically a quotation from the New Testament where Jesus says that you have to choose the stony path to arrive in paradise. The books certainly do not encourage neither to lie nor to break rules. In fact, they strongly encourage to develop a conscience, to mature and not to hide behind rules and double-faced morals. jenny from ravenclaw wrote: "Trelawney strikes me as someone who is caught up with the idea of being a Seer - the way she dresses and speaks in that misty voices are indications of that. She also has something in common with Snape, as she likes to intimidate her students by predicting their deaths or threatening them to not disclose final exam answers or terrible things would happen. The fact that Trelawney can make real predictions occasionally doesn't really mean all that much to me. She clearly does not have any real control over her abilities and does not even appear to know that she can See at all - "I wouldn't presume to predict something as far fetched as that!" (or some such similar comment). Because she doesn't know that she can predict things, I don't think she is the real deal. I absolutely believe that there are people who have psychic abilities (and I believe that people can definitely see ghosts), but she is not one of them. She's too caught up in her image to control and perfect her talent if indeed she really has one." Dear Jenny, not only do I like everything you say about teaching, I also agree with you in my profound dislike of Sibyl Trelawney. IMO, it's not only her predicitions that are made up (but for the one in PoA), but what makes her extremely scary to me, is that her whole personality is made up: Sometimes the facade gets a little crack, when she's too annoyed whith her pupils, and then her voice becomes "more like professor McGonagall's" and she is "not her usual airy fairy self". I don't know whether I'd like to know what's really under that mask!! The "old fraud" theory, IMHO, is corroborated by the fact that she really "laps up" the predictions invented by Harry and Ron, because, even if the predicted *facts* might pass closer examination, the planetar constellations they refer to certainly wouldn't. This does nothing to diminish my fear of her real character. On the contrary: Just imagine *you* were a teacher( if you really are, that's even better) and two students hand you in a piece of homework which is so obviously and insultingly made up you can't just look past it. Would *you* "read out great portions" of it and "congratulate your students"??? If you were a Snape-type, you would completely destroy them before the whole class and give two weeks of detention. If you were a teacher with a pedagogic conscience, you would speak to those two in private and have a serious word with them about their behaviour in class and their lousy technique of making up predictions. But WHY would you react as Trelawney did? I still have to think aout this (feeling still more uneasy) and would like to hear what everybody thinks of it! Danette wrote: "Actually that is a very plausable theory. I can see if happening especially if you compare Bill's age to Charlie's, Charlie's age to Percy's, Percy's age to the Twins, the Twins' age to Ron, and Ron's age to Ginny. There is a rather large gap between Charlie and Percy and compared to the gap between any of the other siblings so it is very easy to see there being another child in there that died one way or another" I don't think that's a really stringent argument for another Weasley child died or gone lost. There may be lots of reasons not to have a child every year, even if there is the biological possibility to do so. Just think of he Weasleys' financial situation! When they had had both Bill and Charlie, they were still very young and,as we all know, juniors in ministries don't get overlarge salaries. How did this whole discussion about the dead weasley come up? I think, it was by way of what Arthur said about the Dark Mark, giving some of us the impression that he might have had a personal experience with it. Now, may I just tell you one thing: My mother is born in 1929, and of course she remembers WWII very well (she lived in Vienna). When we went to the cinema lots of years ago to see "The Battle of Midway"; which was one of the first films to use the sensorround tecnique, I still remember her coming out of the cinema all white and shaking, because the fim had brought back the memory of the bombs faling on Vienna, the houses trembling by their impacts, hiding in the cellar etc.etc. She reacted that way, even if she had never lost a family member by a bombardment and their house had never been actually hit. And by the time we saw the film, the war had been over for 35 years! Arthur speaks of terrible things that happened only 15 years ago and we know him to be a very sensitive person (remember what Gred or Forge says in PoA, telling Harry about Arthur's visit to Azkaban!). To come to a conclusion, I'm not at all convinced that arthur had an immediate personal experience with the Dark Mark hovering over The Burrows. Susanna From litalex at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 10:39:07 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010623103907.59556.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21332 Hello, --- Jen Faulkner wrote: > [1] As in the poem of Catullus: odi et amo. quare > id faciam fortasse > requiris. / nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior. Translation? My understanding is: "I hate and I love. How am I to make what I perhaps sought. I know not, but I become knowing and tortured." Quite wrong, I'm sure. little Alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Sat Jun 23 13:25:03 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:25:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwart's Motto, help! In-Reply-To: <20010623103907.59556.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010623132503.11001.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21333 --- "Alexandra Y. Kwan" ha scritto:
Hello,

--- Jen Faulkner wrote:
> [1] As in the poem of Catullus: odi et amo. quare
> id faciam fortasse
> requiris. / nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.

Translation?

My understanding is: "I hate and I love. How am I to
make what I perhaps sought. I know not, but I become
knowing and tortured."

Quite wrong, I'm sure.

little Alex

Not entirely. It is: I love and I hate. You might perhaps ask why I'm doing that. I don't know. But I feel it's happening and I suffer. susanna (who is some kind of latin teacher) __________________________________________________
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Jun 23 13:47:00 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:47:00 -0000 Subject: Weasleys In-Reply-To: <3B341B91.64C96221@texas.net> Message-ID: <9h26kk+h9c4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21334 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > > As for Apparating, wasn't Ginny with Molly? Ginny can't Apparate, and > Molly can't "carry" her when *she* does, so unless there was someone > close by and trustworthy to guard Ginny--and I can't imagine, if the > Dark Mark were seen and danger was in the air, that Molly would leave > Ginny alone--Molly *had* to stay at the Burrow. > Ginny went to the World Cup with everyone else. When the Dark Mark was seen, she had been separated from H,H, and R and was with Fred and George somewhere in the woods. It was Molly who was home alone those few days. --jenny from ravenclaw***************************************** From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 23 13:50:16 2001 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:50:16 -0000 Subject: enigmatic Bill In-Reply-To: <9h1h7o+rvps@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h26qo+kjtt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21335 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Scott wrote: > "After Arthur makes the above statement there was silence for a > moment, and then Bill says "Well, it didn't help us tonight, whoever > conjured it." (This sentence confuses me the more I read it. Is he > saying that they "didn't help" by scaring away the DEs? How *could* > the Dark Mark "help" them?) He goes on to say "It scared the Death > Eaters away the moment they saw it. They all Disapparated before we'd > got near enough to unmask any of them. We caught the Robertses before > they hit the ground though." > > You're not te only one to be confused about this sentence. I tried > the old trick reading it aloud, putting the emphasis on different > words (it *didn't* help us tonight, it didn't *help* us tonight, it > didn't help *us* tonight, it didn't help us *tonight*), but didn't > get much more sense out of it. Because who has ever been *helped* by > the Dark Mark? It would be clear if he said something like "It made > our work even more difficult tonight" which would be the "it didn't > *help* us tonight" version. I think emphasis on *help* is correct, and the meaning is indeed "it made our work more difficult". It's British ironic understatement, the same way "a small fortune" means "fabulous wealth", and "a spot of bother" means "an earthshaking disaster". Pippin From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Jun 23 14:06:40 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:06:40 -0000 Subject: Trelawney In-Reply-To: <9h1h7o+rvps@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h27pg+e1c7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21336 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > The "old fraud" theory, IMHO, is corroborated by the fact that she > really "laps up" the predictions invented by Harry and Ron, because, > even if the predicted *facts* might pass closer examination, the > planetar constellations they refer to certainly wouldn't. > This does nothing to diminish my fear of her real character. On the > contrary: Just imagine *you* were a teacher( if you really are, > that's even better) and two students hand you in a piece of homework > which is so obviously and insultingly made up you can't just look > past it. Would *you* "read out great portions" of it > and "congratulate your students"??? > If you were a Snape-type, you would completely destroy them before > the whole class and give two weeks of detention. > If you were a teacher with a pedagogic conscience, you would speak to > those two in private and have a serious word with them about their > behaviour in class and their lousy technique of making up predictions. > But WHY would you react as Trelawney did? > I still have to think aout this (feeling still more uneasy) and would > like to hear what everybody thinks of it! I knew there was another example I missed as to why I feel Trelawney is a right old fraud! You nailed it on the head for me. As for being a teacher, I certainly would not read to the class an essay that I believed was made up or copied word for word from another source. When we grade the English Regents exams here in NYC, we are given many instructions as to how to grade each essay. One of the notes says that if an essay is completely copied from the text, the grade should be a ZERO. No credit should be given. The fact that Trelawney did not even recognize that her students were making things up makes me question how well she knows her topic. I can tell if a student hasn't read a book that she wrote an essay about, and I do not accept it. I don't pull a Snape and humiliate the student, but I'll write a note at the end of the essay expressing my suspicions and concerns. I've have many a discussion with students about handing in work that is not their own, and they never get the credit from me for it. Harry and Ron clearly knew they could get away with faking it for Trelawney. What is sad to me is that she accepts it so readily. I also do not like that the students who haunt her classroom during lunch times (like Lavender) are the ones she tells have the makings of true Seers - now that's being biased! --jenny from ravenclaw************************* From vayabe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 14:12:02 2001 From: vayabe at yahoo.com (vayabe at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:12:02 -0000 Subject: enigmatic Bill,"that book", Trelawney, the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9h1h7o+rvps@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h283i+ial9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21337 Greetings from a very tired newbie who has spent the night going through HP4GU's archives ! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Scott wrote: > "After Arthur makes the above statement there was silence for a > moment, and then Bill says "Well, it didn't help us tonight, whoever > conjured it." (This sentence confuses me the more I read it. Is he > saying that they "didn't help" by scaring away the DEs? How *could* > the Dark Mark "help" them?) He goes on to say "It scared the Death > Eaters away the moment they saw it. They all Disapparated before we'd > got near enough to unmask any of them. We caught the Robertses before > they hit the ground though." > > You're not te only one to be confused about this sentence. I tried > the old trick reading it aloud, putting the emphasis on different > words (it *didn't* help us tonight, it didn't *help* us tonight, it > didn't help *us* tonight, it didn't help us *tonight*), but didn't > get much more sense out of it. Because who has ever been *helped* by > the Dark Mark? It would be clear if he said something like "It made > our work even more difficult tonight" which would be the "it didn't > *help* us tonight" version. For what it's worth, I think that is what he meant, which makes perfect sense in that they were wondering why and by whom the mark had been summoned and Bill is remarking that whatever the reasons, it complicated things for those trying to stop the DEs. If your saying it out loud, I imagine the tone would be quite wry. This doesn't mean of course that he wasn't changing the subject (Arthur sounded quite intense) and he might indeed have lost a brother to Voldemort. However, if that's the case, it was more likely an older brother as I don't see why only one child would have been killed if a DE had attaqued Arthur's familly and it seems unlikely that Molly would have left a very young child alone. A thew thoughts while I'm posting (happens so rarely) : was Sirius on Gryffindor's quidditch team ? I like to imagine James and him as a pair of unbeatable chasers confounding their opponents with Porkoff ploys and Reverse passes. My apologies for bringing this up again but my take on Snape's love-life is that he fell for Mrs Lestrange (we really need to learn what her first name is). His choosing what was right over the love of his life could be one reason why Dumbledore trusts him and besides she's still alive to make trouble, unlike Lily. How long can Pig stay an owlet ? Surely by the end of GoF he's no longer the baby described. And if Hagrid is part giant, could prof. Flitwick be part goblin/leprechaun/insert-your-favourite-small-being ? Alice From golden_faile at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 14:18:30 2001 From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's Jealousy and Astrology In-Reply-To: <124.ab75fb.28655035@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010623141830.9801.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21338 --- devika261 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/21/01 10:16:38 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > celeste_827 at yahoo.com writes: > > > > If I remember correctly, it was in GoF that Ron > and Harry were making > > up the false predictions for Divination, correct? > > > > > She mentions that Ron suggest that Harry write, > "Why don't you get > > stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a > friend? If JKR was using astrology to foreshadow, could it have been about their upcoming fight? Just a thought. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From pennylin at swbell.net Sat Jun 23 14:34:57 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:34:57 -0500 Subject: Trelawney, Divination, and Seers References: <9gvvev+uhkm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B34A911.29834423@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21339 Hi everyone -- dfrankis at dial.pipex.com wrote: > > > MacGonagall affirms the reality of some form of prediction when she > says True Seers are very rare. I'm curious to know what others think. David has made the same point that Richard Abanes made in a footnote in his book, HP & the Bible (which I did recently review on amazon.com). In my review, I stated that I thought it was clear that McGonagall (and Rowling) was being sarcastic, ironic. I think she's saying "very rare" in the sense of "non-existent." Would some of our British members care to comment? It seems to me to be another example of British dry humor rather than any sort of affirmation that there are *any* "Seers." Thoughts? Penny From catlady at wicca.net Sat Jun 23 15:32:02 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:32:02 -0000 Subject: enigmatic Bill .... the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9h283i+ial9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h2cpi+94us@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21340 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., vayabe at y... wrote: > [Bill] might indeed have lost a brother to Voldemort. However, if > that's the case, it was more likely an older brother as I don't see > why only one child would have been killed if a DE had attaqued > Arthur's familly and it seems unlikely that Molly would have left a > very young child alone. One way in which older siblings could survive an attack that killed younger siblings is if the older siblings were away at Hogwarts when their home was attacked. The parents could have survived the attack because they were away from home and had left one pair of grand- parents babysitting. We haven't heard any mention of Weasley grand- parents, but it's hard to view that as proof that they're dead (and must have died young, considering that wizard folk live twice as long as Muggles), as we haven't heard of ANY grand-parents except Neville's grandmother. I wonder why JKR wrote such a grand-parent- less world, no one even receiving mail from grandparents who retired to Florida... During that digression, I was checking my time-line, which says that Percy was born during Bill's first year at Hogwarts and the twins were born during Charlie's first year at Hogwarts, so if child[ren] born between Charlie and Percy were killed while Bill and Charlie were at school, such as while Mrs. Weasley had gone to hospital to birth the twins, the question would be 'why did Percy survive?" So I have suddenly just now come up with a New Theory: Arthur and Molly had originally intended to have only the usual two children, but when Bill went away to school, they found that they were lonely with only one at home, and would be even lonelier in two years when Charlie also was away, so they decided to have some more. From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Sat Jun 23 15:46:41 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:46:41 -0000 Subject: Has anyone read this book?? In-Reply-To: <9h0mg1+tr4c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h2dl1+pve6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21341 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose" wrote: > But it was explaining how Harry is constantly lying, cheating, > stealing, and overall breaking rules and he never is punished and how > this is a bad influence on children... I swear - this book is a > total piece of BS!! Seriously... It's like saying they should ban > Snow White because in involves witches and witchcraft! In all fairness, Harry, Ron and Hermione have lied (Harry's scar-ache, the Marauder's Map, etc.), stolen (the Boomslang skin from Snape's office), cheated (if you consider the Moody/Crouch Triward Tournament hints as cheating) and have broken the rules on more than one occasion. Come to think of it, Ron, Fred and George have even abducted Harry using an illegal enchanted car and the Weasley's have harbored a runaway (CoS). One of the running HP themes I personally find rather concerning is the theme of "the ends justify the means", such as stealing boomslang skin from Snape's office because it's being used for a good purpose. The main thing to remember is that Harry Potter is fiction. IMO, regardless of whether the books are labeled "children's literature" or not, it doesn't absolve parents and other adults from discussing the practical morality with their children. HP and other similar books can be a great starting point for meaningful parent-child discussions. Milz From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sat Jun 23 15:54:58 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:54:58 -0000 Subject: Latin corrections - Note for the Lexicon (was Re: Hogwart's Motto, help!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9h2e4i+he78@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21342 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jen Faulkner wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > > As a present active imperative, it would be "cruci" in the > > singular, and "crucite" in the plural. > > *frowns* Unless I'm missing something very obvious, a present > active imperative from 'crucio' would be 'crucia', singular, > 'cruciate', plural. First conjugation. Oops. No need to frown. Even though I *knew* that the verb is "cruciare", for whatever reason, my brain switched it to "crucire" (UGH!) when I conjugated it. Bad Craig! (slams head into oven door) [Skip long discussion on the passive imperative, which I agree with.] > > I'll leave the "imperio" for someone else. > > As I said yesterday, I really believe 'imperio' is intended to be > a 1st person singular present active indicative, like 'crucio' or > 'accio', with an -i- introduced by analogy. Analyzing it as a > dative or ablative noun makes little to no sense. (But in form, > it could be that, sure.) I was merely indicating that that is the only Latin form that is an *actual word*, since the correct verb is imperare and not imperiare. I really don't have a problem with these being 1st person singular present verbs - certainly all of the following fit that bill: accio crucio densaugeo expecto patronum engorgio incendio reducio relashio** reparo ** Although "relashio" is clearly not a Latin word with that "sh", it still has the same form, and I assume that this was an anglicised spelling of the Italian "rilascio" - to release, to relax, to issue. Perhaps Steve could include this possible etymology in the Lexicon. ....Craig From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sat Jun 23 16:22:49 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:22:49 -0000 Subject: Trelawney In-Reply-To: <9h27pg+e1c7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h2fop+l68r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21343 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > > The fact that Trelawney did not even recognize that her students > were making things up makes me question how well she knows her > topic. [Snip] > Harry and Ron clearly knew they could get away with faking it for > Trelawney. What is sad to me is that she accepts it so readily. OTOH, if Harry and Ron have natural gifts of seership, then they could unconsciously get their made-up horoscopes correct, just on the basis of it *sounding good to them*. There would be nothing for Trelawney to object to. ....Craig From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 23 17:23:57 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:23:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwart's Motto, help! References: <20010623103907.59556.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B34D0AC.66045310@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21344 "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote: > --- Jen Faulkner wrote: > > [1] As in the poem of Catullus: odi et amo. quare > > id faciam fortasse > > requiris. / nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior. > > Translation? > > My understanding is: "I hate and I love. How am I to > make what I perhaps sought. I know not, but I become > knowing and tortured." > > Quite wrong, I'm sure. Not unless Catullus knew Snape. Spot-on. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sat Jun 23 17:31:27 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:31:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trelawney, Divination, and Seers References: <9gvvev+uhkm@eGroups.com> <3B34A911.29834423@swbell.net> Message-ID: <003601c0fc0a$5596e9c0$853670c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 21345 dfrankis at dial.pipex.com wrote: Penny said: <> I don't think McGonagall was being ironic; I think she was stating what she saw as fact. To me, her reference to true seers being "very rare" meant she thinks exactly that, and not that they are non-existent. I think the comment was meant at face value; true seers exist, they are very rare, Trelawney isn't one of them. Minerva makes it clear to Harry that she views Trelawney as a fraud. Hinting that she was one of these 'very rare' talents would indeed have been ironic, but she didn't do that. Just before making the statement about true seers, she says, "If it were not for the fact that I never speak ill of my colleagues --," and she seemed about to question Trelawney's talents quite openly. I would agree, though, that British irony often loses something in the translation. Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything to do with this club: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm From oppen at cnsinternet.com Sat Jun 23 18:16:07 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:16:07 -0500 Subject: Death Eater Similarities References: <993302610.359.5185.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004c01c0fc10$939ba020$fbc71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 21346 > Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 06:08:40 -0000 > From: "Emma Moniz" > Subject: Death Eater Similarities > > I checked the archives and everything, and I saw that no-one had made > the commentary that the Death Eaters are strikingly similar to the > Klu Klux Klan Stateside. I realise that this rather excludes the > Brits from a lot of commentary and I apologise for that. But growing > up in an area with high KKK activity, as well as being a target for > said activity, it seems strikingly similar. Never knowing when you > might be hit, dreading seeing the mark outside your house (Dark Mark > for the DE, burning cross for the KKK), never knowing if they let > your family get out unscathed, uncertain of who is a member and who > isn't.... I was discussing this tonight, and the things the Death > Eaters and the KKK share in common realy hit home when I read GoF for > the umpteenth time this week. I can understand that fear, now. > > Are there other groups, aside from everybody's favourite, the Nazis, > who share characteristics like this? I understand the Death Eaters > are a compilation of all hate groups, but they seem to function more > like some than others... > > ~Emma This is true enough, however, the KKK (_Ku_ Klux Klan, not _Klu_ Klux Klan, BTW) is itself not wildly dissimilar to other groups that operate(d) in the US in the nineteenth century---the Antirent agitators in upstate NY State and the pro- and anti-Mormon raiders in 1840s Missouri and Illionis, for instance. One thing that struck _me_ about the scene in the cemetery where Voldie reunites with his "faithful" Death Eaters is that he apparently has no problem calling them by name. Why bother with those stupid robes if you're going to be using real names, out loud? I'm sure that Voldemort's easily smart enough to come up with code names, which would also make it a lot harder for a traitor to betray the whole lot of them in one fell swoop. In addition, taking a new name is traditional upon religious or magical initiation---converts to Christianity, Judaism or Islam, as well as outfits like the Hare Krishnas, can often take new names for use within the group, if not in the outside world. Part of DE initiation could well have been the selection of a new name for the initiate, either by Voldemort himself (and, note, he himself changed his name) or by the initiate, or by both of them working together. Pettigrew became Wormtail, and the others could've done likewise. For that matter, how did they get into their robes so quickly? I'm sure that it would be a _tad_ suspicious for (spoiler) who destroys dangerous beasties for the Ministry of Magic, if the cleaning staff found his Official Death Eater Robe(tm) in his closet at work one day. Places like the Malfoys' manor probably have enough hiding places for tons of DE gear, but not everybody's got a manor to play with. And, one final thought---is it a requirement that DEs must be able to Apparate? It would certainly come in very handy, but I don't think Wormtail could, otherwise he'd have done it when he set up Sirius Black. Maybe this is a requirement only for the highest ranks of the organization---as I've said before, I do not think for a second that the people we saw in the graveyard are anything like the total number of DEs. Voldemort would probably only summon the highest-ranking members to him at such an occasion. From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 23 19:00:42 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma Moniz) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:00:42 -0000 Subject: Death Eater Similarities In-Reply-To: <004c01c0fc10$939ba020$fbc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9h2p0q+hsrq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21347 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > (_Ku_ Klux Klan, not _Klu_ Klux Klan, BTW) Ergh...I noticed that after I sent. Teaches me to type at odd hours of the morning. *G* > One thing that struck _me_ about the scene in the cemetery where Voldie reunites with his "faithful" Death Eaters is that he apparently has no problem calling them by name. Why bother with those stupid robes if you're going to be using real names, out loud? I'm sure that Voldemort's easily smart enough to come up with code names, which would also make it a lot harder for a traitor to betray the whole lot of them in one fell swoop. Considering the power that the Death Eaters held, I don't think they are overly worried about traitors. If you're going to take over the world, be proud about it, really. I don't think they're out there to be a secret society, really. I think they're there to launch their campaign of covert terror and open destruction. Possibly, using their given names might be a sign of their faith in Voldemort's power. A sign that they feel he is quite capable of rooting out traitors who could destory them. Also, does Voldie really care if his Death Eaters die? He apparently has some solid recruiting happening, of his reign of terror is any indication. The US Army ought to take recruiting tips from him. He never seems to be under quota. > For that matter, how did they get into their robes so quickly? I'm sure that it would be a _tad_ suspicious for (spoiler) who destroys dangerous beasties for the Ministry of Magic, if the cleaning staff found his Official Death Eater Robe(tm) in his closet at work one day. Places like the Malfoys' manor probably have enough hiding places for tons of DE gear, but not everybody's got a manor to play with. Couldn't they Transfigure their robes to make them appear to be something else? Or, conversely, Transfigure their usual robes into the DE outfit? That would be my first instinct. And I can see Lucius with his own room of DE equipment and such...the height of DE fashion, Lucius. > And, one final thought---is it a requirement that DEs must be able to Apparate? It would certainly come in very handy, but I don't think Wormtail could, otherwise he'd have done it when he set up Sirius Black. Maybe this is a requirement only for the highest ranks of the organization---as I've said before, I do not think for a second that the people we saw in the graveyard are anything like the total number of DEs. Voldemort would probably only summon the highest-ranking members to him at such an occasion. I recall someone, I think Snape, claiming that when the Dark Mark on their arms burned, they had to Apparate immediately to Voldemort's side. Apparation seems to be a bit of higher level magic that every witch and wizard learns. If they can't master Apparition, how good would a DE be at the Unforgivable Curses and such? I think Wormtail is a fluke, there because of what only he could give Voldemort. And I'd wager he probably can Apparate. Just not well. ~Emma From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 20:22:24 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] enigmatic Bill,"that book", Trelawney, the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9h1h7o+rvps@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010623202224.16607.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21348 --- pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it wrote: > How did this whole discussion about the dead weasley > come up? I > think, it was by way of what Arthur said about the > Dark Mark, giving > some of us the impression that he might have had a > personal > experience with it. Actually the discussion arose from talking about Ron as a Seer. We were discussing how 7th sons (and 7th sons of 7th sons) are traditionally supposed to have special abilities. So we've all been thoerizing on how Ron could be a seventh son. Thus the whole Dead Weasley child thread. Sorry if we confused you. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 20:31:59 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Doomed Admirer In-Reply-To: <009201c0fad9$c43aa9c0$8bc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <20010623203159.90221.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21349 Eric, While Molly seems like a likely canidate I think its more likely that it will be Arthur. That's just me though... --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 20:44:08 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: enigmatic Bill,"that book", Trelawney, the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9h283i+ial9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010623204408.14452.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21350 --- vayabe at yahoo.com wrote: > > For what it's worth, I think that is what he > meant, which makes > perfect sense in that they were wondering why and by > whom the mark > had been summoned and Bill is remarking that > whatever the reasons, it > complicated things for those trying to stop the DEs. > If your saying > it out loud, I imagine the tone would be quite wry. > This doesn't mean of course that he wasn't > changing the subject > (Arthur sounded quite intense) and he might indeed > have lost a > brother to Voldemort. However, if that's the case, > it was more likely > an older brother as I don't see why only one child > would have been > killed if a DE had attaqued Arthur's familly and it > seems unlikely > that Molly would have left a very young child alone. Ohhhh...I didn't think of that possiblity. That would also make it even more unlikely that the younger kids (F & G, R and G, maybe even P) would know anything about it. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From eccleston at clara.co.uk Sat Jun 23 20:51:15 2001 From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:51:15 -0000 Subject: Why Latin? In-Reply-To: <9h2e4i+he78@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h2vg3+6rh6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21351 > > > > > I'll leave the "imperio" for someone else. > > > > As I said yesterday, I really believe 'imperio' is intended to be > > a 1st person singular present active indicative, like 'crucio' or > > 'accio', with an -i- introduced by analogy. Analyzing it as a > > dative or ablative noun makes little to no sense. (But in form, > > it could be that, sure.) > It's funny, isn't it, how we want our words to have a power and potential beyond that which we know they have. Perhaps thats why we so readily accept latin-esque words and want them to be "magic". I think it is the same with Tolkein, Ursula Le Guin etc. Why is it, do you think, that it tends to be Latin that is used in this way? Steve eccleston at clara.co.uk From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 21:13:37 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death Eater Similarities In-Reply-To: <004c01c0fc10$939ba020$fbc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <20010623211337.89806.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21352 --- Eric Oppen wrote: > > For that matter, how did they get into their robes > so quickly? I'm sure > that it would be a _tad_ suspicious for (spoiler) > who destroys dangerous > beasties for the Ministry of Magic, if the cleaning > staff found his Official > Death Eater Robe(tm) in his closet at work one day. > Places like the > Malfoys' manor probably have enough hiding places > for tons of DE gear, but > not everybody's got a manor to play with. > *Snort* Ouch! Okay that's what I get for trying to drink soda while reading my mail. Official Death Eater Robe(tm) huh? Do you think they get the club decoder ring too? *giggle* Danette Who needed a laugh today and was very glad to get it here. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 21:36:21 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Final Blazon w/discussion, LONG, mostly for Steve (was Re: Heraldry Class In-Reply-To: <3B340B12.BD1BA18A@texas.net> Message-ID: <20010623213621.39508.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21353 Does anyone know where tuo find a picture of the *color* version of the coat of arms on the Web? Any help is appreciated. Thanks. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Sat Jun 23 22:18:23 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:18:23 -0000 Subject: Latin lovers, DE dress code, Molly's age Message-ID: <9h34jf+4o8o@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21354 Thanks to everybody for having revived the "Why latin?" discussion. I simply love that language and liked the spell formulas JKR has imagined. Thinking a bit more about it, frankly I wouldn't put it past her having consulted medieval sources and having taken formulas directly from there. Having done not only classic, but also medieval latin (even if that was hundred years ago), I remember most clearly how incorrectly the more popular medieval texts use latin. There would be a lot of wrong verb endings and lots of influences from other languages (e.g. "Alohomora" strikes me more as an arabian influence) Eric wrote: "For that matter, how did they get into their robes so quickly? I'm sure that it would be a _tad_ suspicious for (spoiler) who destroys dangerous beasties for the Ministry of Magic, if the cleaning staff found his Official Death Eater Robe(tm) in his closet at work one day. Places like the Malfoys' manor probably have enough hiding places for tons of DE gear, but not everybody's got a manor to play with." GoF is certainly the one of the four books I've read most times, and I don't remember any indication about special robes the DE wore. Wouldn't it be just a *bit* ridiculous to imagine everybody dashing through the house (if he or she is at home!) in search for his "uniform" in order to Apparate correctly dressed? I think you have done quite a job of a"Ridikkulus" charm about that. still Eric: "And, one final thought---is it a requirement that DEs must be able to Apparate? It would certainly come in very handy, but I don't think Wormtail could, otherwise he'd have done it when he set up Sirius Black. Maybe this is a requirement only for the highest ranks of the organization---as I've said before, I do not think for a second that the people we saw in the graveyard are anything like the total number of DEs. Voldemort would probably only summon the highest-ranking members to him at such an occasion." IMHO, DEs *are* the most powerful wizards around and to them, Apparating is just a piece of cake. Wormtail never was part of the group and will be admitted as long as he is useful and obedient. Although I have no warm feelings towards him, I'm a bit afraid for him. IMO, he will die in a rather nasty way. Rita wrote: "During that digression, I was checking my time-line, which says that Percy was born during Bill's first year at Hogwarts and the twins were born during Charlie's first year at Hogwarts, so if child[ren] born between Charlie and Percy were killed while Bill and Charlie were at school, such as while Mrs. Weasley had gone to hospital to birth the twins, the question would be 'why did Percy survive?" well, because he probably bored his murderer to death before he could harm him. But seriously: How did you get those time lines? I agree with you that it's much more sensible to reconstruct relative time-lines without exact dates, but did you take into consideration that,if yours was correct, Mrs. Weasly in GoF would have arrived at the venerable age of about 58? She certainly strikes me more as an about 45 year-old. Susanna From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Sat Jun 23 22:22:16 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 00:22:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Final Blazon w/discussion, LONG, mostly for Steve (was Re: Heraldry Class In-Reply-To: <20010623213621.39508.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010623222216.71174.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21355 --- Danette Schardt-Cordova ha scritto:

Does anyone know where tuo find a picture of the
*color* version of the coat of arms on the Web? Any
help is appreciated. Thanks.

Danette

Yes, go to http://utenti.tripod.it/hogwarts, there you get it in colours. Susanna =====
"Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun"

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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From mlmnb at msn.com Sat Jun 23 22:23:50 2001 From: mlmnb at msn.com (mlmnb) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:23:50 -0400 Subject: Ginny/Molly Message-ID: <000501c0fc33$31cfaf80$a304183f@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 21356 I'm a day late catching up on posts. Allow my two cents. Ginny seems immature (holding her mom's hand at the station as she departs her first year). I've seen both sides of this coin with my friends' children. 1/ She's the only girl, she's the baby--two reasons she would be very sheltered. And as some of the other posts have pointed out, I agree with Arthur's dark mark comment/ theory that there's a missing Weasley, (should have been the third child?) Yet another reason to be overprotective. One of my dearest friends walked her youngest, then 6th grader (about the age of 1st yr. Hogwarts) to the bus stop, one block from her home, every day! And she didn't have to stand alone at a rural stop, there were other kids in this suburban neighborhood. I remember being embarrassed for this girl, and I consider myself a somewhat over protective mom to an only child. 2/ Her other option would be for Ginny to be the rough and tumble tomboy that was always tagging along with the boys. I think JKR opted for the sheltered version as she needed someone more vulnerable for plot purposes, and she already had Hermione as the female sidekick. Enjoying the heraldy info! Dane from Ravenclaw From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 22:31:29 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:31:29 -0000 Subject: Why Latin? In-Reply-To: <9h2vg3+6rh6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h35c1+dnk7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21357 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eccleston at c... wrote: > > > > It's funny, isn't it, how we want our words to have a power and > potential beyond that which we know they have. Perhaps thats why we > so readily accept latin-esque words and want them to be "magic". I > think it is the same with Tolkein, Ursula Le Guin etc. Why is it, do > you think, that it tends to be Latin that is used in this way? > > Steve > I suppose it is due to the Fall of the Roman Empire, the Dark Ages, and the various renaissances (Carolingian, English, Italian). The Romans could do things completely out of the realm of possibility for medieval Europeans. It was, to coun a phrase, "like magic" and Latin was the common tongue of all educated Western Europeans for hundreds of years, whatever country they lived in. It was the "lingua franca" before there even was a lingua franca. It seems inevitable that those seekers of lore and knowledge would use the language of that civilization that had already performed what were in the present day of the seekers, miracles. Hence, Latin as the language of magic. Haggriddus *heh heh* From samanthakent72 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 23 23:23:46 2001 From: samanthakent72 at hotmail.com (Samantha) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 23:23:46 -0000 Subject: FANFICTION Message-ID: <9h38e2+3qqt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21358 Hey guys, since that *damn* thing on ff.net about Cassie, I'm not posting on ff.net anymore. Yet I want to keep going with my fic. Can I post it here? please reply to this so I know if I can or not. Love ~*~Samantha~*~ From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 23 23:27:23 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 23:27:23 -0000 Subject: FANFICTION In-Reply-To: <9h38e2+3qqt@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h38kr+t01k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21359 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Samantha" wrote: > Hey guys, > > since that *damn* thing on ff.net about Cassie, I'm > not posting on ff.net anymore. Yet I want to keep going > with my fic. Can I post it here? please reply to this > so I know if I can or not. > > Love > ~*~Samantha~*~ Why? What happened with Cassie? (This is probably in a previous post, but you can still enlighten me... LOL From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Sat Jun 23 23:45:52 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:45:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] FANFICTION Message-ID: <4b.d445e5a.28668430@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21360 In a message dated 6/23/01 7:23:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, samanthakent72 at hotmail.com writes: > > since that *damn* thing on ff.net about Cassie, I'm > not posting on ff.net anymore. Yet I want to keep going > with my fic. Can I post it here? please reply to this > so I know if I can or not. hi - anyone who wants to quit ffnet, like I did earlier today should check into the hp_fanfiction yahoogroup - you can post your fics there - although not in the body of messages - you post them into the files section & post an announcement to the list. you can also post announcements of your fics on HP4GUAnnouncements From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sun Jun 24 01:38:31 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 01:38:31 -0000 Subject: Death Eater Similarities In-Reply-To: <004c01c0fc10$939ba020$fbc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9h3gan+mjr4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21361 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > This is true enough, however, the KKK (_Ku_ Klux Klan, not _Klu_ > Klux Klan, BTW) is itself not wildly dissimilar to other groups > that operate(d) in the US in the nineteenth century---the Antirent > agitators in upstate NY State and the pro- and anti-Mormon raiders > in 1840s Missouri and Illionis, for instance. Hmmm, I'm not sure I fully buy into the latter analogy (if I may call it that), but perhaps religious bias is peeking through on my part.... ....Craig From jlwc222 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 01:50:22 2001 From: jlwc222 at yahoo.com (jlwc222 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 01:50:22 -0000 Subject: Moody, Voldemort's wand, Snape predictions Message-ID: <9h3h0u+ttvb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21362 Hi everyone, I am new to the group, and this is my first post. I just finished re-reading GoF and I have a few questions. First of all, why was Crouch/Moody so determined to teach Harry to throw off the Imperius curse? Why would he give his master's most hated enemy such a skill? Was he trying to fit into his "Moody" persona more completely, or did he have such a hatred of that curse, having been placed under it for an extended period of time, that he couldn't stand the thought of anyone being controlled by it that he let his emotions overcome his "better judgment?" Also, how did Voldemort get a hold of his old wand? Did Wormtail pick it up for him after he was nearly killed at the Potters' cottage and hid it in a safe place until he could return it someday? That seems a bit farfetched to me, so if anyone has another suggestion, I'd be glad to hear it. Finally, on page 651 when Voldemort is addressing the circle of Death Eaters, he mentions, "One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course." I am assuming that Voldemort is referring to Karkaroff and Snape, respectively. Will Snape be in mortal danger in OoTP? Will Harry save his life, as his father did so many years before? Will that cause Snape's feelings for him to become even more bitter? Just thought I'd stir the pot a bit and see if any interesting predictions come out. Any word on when OoTP is due out? Joelle dragon heartstring, ash, 7" From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sun Jun 24 02:22:05 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 02:22:05 -0000 Subject: Why Latin? In-Reply-To: <9h2vg3+6rh6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h3isd+4ps6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21363 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., eccleston at c... wrote: > > It's funny, isn't it, how we want our words to have a power and > potential beyond that which we know they have. Perhaps thats why we > so readily accept latin-esque words and want them to be "magic". I > think it is the same with Tolkein, Ursula Le Guin etc. I assume you don't mean that Tolkien used Latin-esque words, right? Especially given that Quenya is based morphologically on Finnish, and Sindarin on Welsh, to name but a few of his languages. > Why is it, do you think, that it tends to be Latin that is used in > this way? The mystery that Catholicism imbued into it certainly had a large part to play--after all, imagine the "magic" involved in a priest taking the bread and wine, and after speaking the "magic words" (at least from the view of the peasantry who couldn't speak them) transmogrifying them into the very Body and Blood of Christ. I don't think you can get more magical/mysterious. Latin gave both terrestrial and celestial power to the Catholic clergy, so it's little wonder that it has become linked to magic.... ....Craig From jlwc222 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 02:30:14 2001 From: jlwc222 at yahoo.com (jlwc222 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 02:30:14 -0000 Subject: Why does Snape teach? In-Reply-To: <9gtqoj+5i0c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h3jbm+9chr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21364 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Certainly, by selling his potions, Snape would earn a lot more than > that. Which brings us once more to the crucial question: why the heck > does he teach? Possible answers: > 1) He is an idealist and puts his teaching vocation above everything > else. No, I certainly wouldn't say that. > 2) He has another reason why he would rather stay at Hogwarts than > anywhere else. Much more plausible, IMHO. Knowing about his troubled > and certainly not unstained past as a DE who then *betrayed* > Voldemort, the only secure place for him to go was logically > Hogwarts. > As the post of gamekeeper was already occupied, what else could he be > than a teacher? And what else could he teach than what he was best at? I think another reason Snape became a teacher was for the sense of power. He left the Death Eaters to work for Dumbledore (we still don't have all the details on that), changing from one lifestyle to an entirely different one. I think that teaching gives him the control over others lives that he may have grown used to as a Death Eater, although in a lesser portion. No doubt he loves his work, and he may have initially gone to Hogwarts for protection, but at the end of GoF, Dumbledore asks him to do an undoubtedly difficult task on pg. 713: "'Severus,' said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, 'you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready...if you are prepared...' 'I am,' said Snape. He looked slightly paler that usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely." To me, that doesn't sound like a man hiding from danger. Joelle dragon heartstring, ash, 7 inches From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com Sun Jun 24 02:39:31 2001 From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle at bigpond.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 02:39:31 -0000 Subject: FANFICTION In-Reply-To: <9h38kr+t01k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h3jt3+c0dq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21365 Samantha wrote: since that *damn* thing on ff.net about Cassie, I'm not posting on ff.net anymore. Yet I want to keep going with my fic. Can I post it here? please reply to this so I know if I can or not. Meg Rose asked: Why? What happened with Cassie? (This is probably in a previous post, but you can still enlighten me... LOL I'm replying: Apparently cassie has been blacklisted from the site for plagarism. If you would like to read more, try the Paradigm of Uncertainty group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParadigmOfUncertainty The group has really gone ballistic over this. Rowena From pennylin at swbell.net Sun Jun 24 03:08:09 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:08:09 -0500 Subject: ADMIN: FANFICTION (FF) Message-ID: <3B355999.AF58EBED@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21366 Hi -- Quick ADMIN reminders: 1. Fanfiction should not be posted to this list -- not in the Files area and definitely not in the text of email messages. You should post fanfic to one of the HP fanfic groups. You can then announce where it has been posted to this group through the HPFGU-Announcements list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements 2. Discussions about the blacklisting of Cassie should please move over to our OT-Chatter List (which is where all fanfic discussions should be): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter As Heidi mentioned, there is also plenty of discussion of this topic over on the PoU list. Thanks! Penny The Magical Moderator Team From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 03:27:23 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 03:27:23 -0000 Subject: escape of Wormtail/ Was Photos, new members, Sirius/Lupin. Scar In-Reply-To: <9gmkju+e0l1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h3mmr+e68i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21367 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., purplefanta at y... wrote: > Warning:: This message appears to be a rant. But i am not really all > that emotional... just discouraged > > This is where I disagree. IMHO, Snape's inability to listen to > reason caused himself to have to be "eliminated" by way of being > knocked out. True, he did not directly cause Wormtail to escape, but > I hold him responsible for his escape. Having another experienced > wizard on hand on that walk back to the castle would have IMHO saved > the day. Then there is the fact that Snape knew Lupin hadn't taken > hs potion that night. Having Snape alert and part of the "team" > would have been a great help. However, because he refused to listen > to Black's side of the story, he was actually working against them. > There was only two sides that night... the good and the bad. Snape > made the wrong choice. Sorry I couldn't respond to this sooner. I'm not ranting either but I must greatly disagree with the above. Snape was not the one responsible for the escape of Wormtail. Harry, Hermione, Ron, Lupin and Sirius are far more responsible than Snape. Why should Snape have listened to anything Lupin and Black had to say? > > As for my request to please stop yelling at us newbies to check the > archives...? > > Sounds to me like I better start reading unless I want to get my head > bit off... number 826 here I come... Ah.....let me help you out here. Message 15233 by Amanda on this board should help you to understand the SS scene a bit better. Also, Message 751 by Windgedkeys on the Snapefans board has a part about the SS that is very good. I always seem to feel the need to defend Snape :-D Koinonia From vderark at bccs.org Sun Jun 24 04:12:51 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 04:12:51 -0000 Subject: Latin corrections - Note for the Lexicon (was Re: Hogwart's Motto, help!) In-Reply-To: <9h2e4i+he78@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h3pc3+69p0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21368 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > ** Although "relashio" is clearly not a Latin word with that "sh", it > still has the same form, and I assume that this was an anglicised > spelling of the Italian "rilascio" - to release, to relax, to issue. > Perhaps Steve could include this possible etymology in the Lexicon. I changed it this afternoon. I really appreciate input on those etymologies. I study Latin for many years, but that was about 25 years ago. My two Latin dictionaries aren't the best, either. By the way, in regard to Alohomora, "mora" means obstacle, so perhaps we're part way there? Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon home to the Encyclopedia of Spells, Wizard's Atlas, and Bestiary http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 24 04:36:10 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 21:36:10 -0700 Subject: The Hogwarts Arms (not a pub) - Timeline - Molly's Age Message-ID: <3B356E3A.14AE4FBC@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21369 Danette wrote: > Does anyone know where tuo find a picture of the > *color* version of the coat of arms on the Web? http://www.sylvanlaneshoppe.com/xpress_611288.jpg is a good-sized picture of a WB licensed mug with a picture of the arms on one side. Susanna Pigwidgeon wrote: > How did you get those time lines? I agree with you > that it's much more sensible to reconstruct relative > time-lines without exact dates, but did you take into > consideration that,if yours was correct, Mrs. Weasley > in GoF would have arrived at the venerable age of > about 58? She certainly strikes me more as an about > 45 year-old. I constructed my time line from clues in the books, starting with CoS is in the 1992-93 school year because of the Deathday Party. I just posted it in my folder at HPff: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_FanFiction/files/Catlady%27s%20Stories/ In a Scholastic on-line chat that was part of the PR campaign for the release of GoF, JKR said that wizards live longer than Muggles, Dumbledore is 150 and McGonagall "is a sprightly 70". Even if those were their ages in 2000 when she answered the question rather than in 1994-5 when GoF took place, that means that Dumbledore was almost 100 in the Tom Riddle flashbacks in CoS, even tho' his hair was still "auburn". I take this to mean that wizards not only live longer, but age slower. I think Molly could be the same age as McGonagall. Aging slower would allow childbearing to continue to a later age than us Muggles. When Molly and Bill turned up as Harry's family for the Third Task, Molly reminisced about her student days, telling some anecdotes about the gamekeeper before Hagrid, a man named Ogg. Readers immediately assumed that either that was a JKR error, or Hagrid had worked as Ogg's assistant for some number of years, because if Hagrid became gamekeeper '50 years ago' (at age 13) when he was expelled, Molly couldn't be old enough to have been in school before 50 years ago and also be young enough to have a child of 13 (Ginny). But the info that the wizarding folk live longer and age slower made me think that Molly COULD be old enough to have been an older classmate of Hagrid. -- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Sun Jun 24 05:43:45 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 05:43:45 -0000 Subject: Latin corrections - Note for the Lexicon (was Re: Hogwart's Motto, help!) In-Reply-To: <9h3pc3+69p0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h3umh+bnut@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21370 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > > By the way, in regard to Alohomora, "mora" means obstacle, so > perhaps we're part way there? Well, actually, "mora" means "delay" or "pause", or by extension, "something that causes a delay", a "hindrance"; cf. English, "moratorium". I suppose it's a quibble, since a "hindrance" can be an "obstacle" too. :^) As for "aloho", I have another longshot guess to throw in the ring, with Greek "aloo" here (first o = omicron, second o = omega). The breathing is wrong (not "aloho"), but "aloo" is 2d singular present imperative middle voice of "alaomai" = "to wander, to stray, roam about". If I understand the many explanations of the Greek middle voice, this would be translated "Let yourself wander" or "Let yourself stray". So, if this is the correct "root", then *maybe*, JKR is conveying "Begone, hindrance!"; though I think it comes across softer, more like "Please go away delay." Perhaps someone more acquainted with Greek can chime in.... ....Craig From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Sun Jun 24 07:53:54 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 07:53:54 -0000 Subject: Snape's mission accomplished, Message-ID: <9h46ai+516v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21371 Having searched the archive, I think that this hasn't yet been brought up: After the scene in the hospital wing at theend of GoF,Dumbledore sends both Sirius and Snape away on ther respective missions. Between this and the end of term feast there is, as in every book, one entire week, during which Harry slowly recovers from his shock. IMHO, Snape has accomplished his mission, at least the first part of it, during that week. This seems quite logical, given that returning to Voldemort was already very risky, but would have been even more so, had he waited for a whole week before going there. He'll have had one hell of a job to convince V. he's still on his side (his reason for not Apparating immediately when he felt the mark burning on his arm, would certainly have been that leaving Hogwarts at that moment would have destroyed his cover identity), but how could he excuse an absence of a whole week? The thing I'm asking myself (and, of course, all of you) is: What as happened during that week? Has he been with V. all the time, his absence being excused, with those who don't know, by Dumbledore? Has he been tortured? On p.625 GoF, before the feast starts, it says: "His eyes lingered on Hary for a moment as Harry looked at him. His expression was difficult to read. He looked as sour and unpleasant as ever. Harry continued to watch him, long after Snape had looked away." IMHO, at this point it dawns on Harry tha Snape has probably gone through some very unpleasant experiences during the last week.This might be a turning point in the relationship Harry-Snape: Snape'e expression when he looks at Harry is not the usual hate, because he has heard from V. himself what happened in the night of his re-birth. I think we might see Harry and Snape getting n together much better in book 5, because now they will be on a basis of mutual respect. Please, plese, tell me what you think about all this!! susanna, who is becoming more and more snape-ist From oppen at cnsinternet.com Sun Jun 24 07:55:45 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 02:55:45 -0500 Subject: Death Eaters and their robes Message-ID: <00d901c0fc83$13d64a20$f0c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 21372 It was a good point, and something I hadn't remembered, that wizards generally _do_ wear robes...however, AFAIK normal wizards' robes do not include deep hoods, which the DEs were wearing at their meeting. I don't have the book open in front of me, but I do remember that they were wearing something that disguised their looks---Harry recognised some of their names, either from having to put up with their children as his schoolmates or from having met them elsewhere. Herself doesn't describe normal wizards' robes much, but I have an impression that they're not much different from choir robes, or the robes that British barristers wear. (Hmmm...Rumpole of the Bailey in an AU fanfic, as a wizard? As soon as I finish the one I've got planned about how Harry Potter and his pals have to team up with Flashman, I might give that one a go) Another reason that DEs might have something distinctive in the way of wizard-wear is to identify who is friendly and who isn't, in the middle of a fight. It would be a trifle unpleasant to find out that instead of the Auror you were aiming at, you'd Avala-Kedavra'd someone on your own side. I do think decoder rings are a bit much...what next? "Look, it's the Dark Mark! Quick, fellow Death Eaters---to the Deatheatercave!" As for why they would be secretive---well, something about the threat of a life sentence in Azkaban might induce a little trend toward secrecy, don't you think? _After_ Voldemort takes over the wizarding world, they'd probably reason, _then_ we can cast off this disguise and revel in our rightful power and glory...but, until then, secrecy is necessary if only to stop the Aurors from finding out who everybody is. It's true, at this sort of high-level meeting, that they can use their real names, but I'd still think that code names in public would be a good idea. That meeting would not count as "in public," since the only non-DE present wasn't expected to survive. Good thing that Voldie never read the Evil Overlord's Rule List, at www.eviloverlord.com, isn't it? Finally---again, we don't _know_ that DEs are necessarily the most powerful wizards (except Dumbledore) around. In fact, I could see Voldemort recruiting people by promising them shortcuts to power, and maybe even being able to deliver in a lot of cases. What would someone like Filch, forex, do if he were promised that he'd no longer be a Squib, but be one of the most powerful and feared wizards around, and nobody would be able to kick sand in his face at the beach again? A really powerful wizard wouldn't be too likely to join Voldemort---nothing much to gain, and potentially a lot to lose. Could Voldemort have ways of augmenting his followers' powers? And Pettigrew _is_ an Animagus---maybe he can't Apparate, but he's still quite useful. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Sun Jun 24 08:15:48 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 10:15:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody, Voldemort's wand, Snape predictions In-Reply-To: <9h3h0u+ttvb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010624081548.64412.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21373 --- jlwc222 at yahoo.com ha scritto:
Hi everyone,
I am new to the group, and this is my first post.
So, first of all: Welcome! I just finished re-reading GoF and I have a few questions. First of
all, why was Crouch/Moody so determined to teach Harry to throw off
the Imperius curse? Why would he give his master's most hated enemy
such a skill? Was he trying to fit into his "Moody" persona more
completely, or did he have such a hatred of that curse, having been
placed under it for an extended period of time, that he couldn't
stand the thought of anyone being controlled by it that he let his
emotions overcome his "better judgment? Crouch/Moody knew exactly what was planned for Voldemort's birthday party. Harry was to give his blood and then be killed. There wouldn't ave been any dfference whether he knew how to fight the Imperius curse or not. It even might have added to the fun if he did. Remember that he is saved not because he has equal powers to those of Voldemort, but because of the twin wands! And Crouch didn't know anything about that, nor did Voldemort. "
Also, how did Voldemort get a hold of his old wand? Did Wormtail
pick it up for him after he was nearly killed at the Potters' cottage
and hid it in a safe place until he could return it someday? well, the wand was in the pocket of his robes which I think are his own. It's quite probable that Peter took all the stuff and hid it- maybe in the Riddle house? That
seems a bit farfetched to me, so if anyone has another suggestion,
I'd be glad to hear it.
Finally, on page 651 when Voldemort is addressing the circle of Death
Eaters, he mentions, "One, too cowardly to return...he will pay.
One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of
course." I am assuming that Voldemort is referring to Karkaroff and
Snape, respectively. Will Snape be in mortal danger in OoTP? Will
Harry save his life, as his father did so many years before? Will
that cause Snape's feelings for him to become even more bitter? Just
thought I'd stir the pot a bit and see if any interesting predictions
come out.
Any word on when OoTP is due out?
Joelle
dragon heartstring, ash, 7"
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Sun Jun 24 11:52:35 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:52:35 -0000 Subject: Photos, new members, Sirius/Lupin. Scar In-Reply-To: <9gmkju+e0l1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h4ka4+7rq1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21374 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., purplefanta at y... wrote: >Then there is the fact that Snape knew Lupin hadn't taken > hs potion that night. Having Snape alert and part of the "team" > would have been a great help. However, because he refused to listen > to Black's side of the story, he was actually working against them. > There was only two sides that night... the good and the bad. Snape > made the wrong choice. It's not quite the good and the bad, more like the good and the deranged and the bad. Pettigrew is the bad; Sirius, Lupin, Harry and co. is the good; Snape is totally Out of Control in the scene. The beauty of his character is that he is never clear-cut bad or good. And why should Snape be the one who has to do all the work all the time? Especially when no one ever thank him for it. The reason I don't like to play the blame game is because the beauty of the ending of PoA rests with the complication and the poignant sense of inevitability. The whole story of the Marauders, the time- turner, Trelaway's prediction etc. all gave me the feeling that the escape of Wormtail and consequently, the return of Voldemort, is fate. You can call me fatalistic. If you read fanfiction, there is an excellent story by Blaise called the Wolfsbane Potion, which looks at PoA from Snape's perspective. Don't worry, this is not one of our Snape fans production. He's totally in canon (nasty, vindictive and annoying) and it did invent a theory that end up blaming Snape for the entire incident. I think you will love it. I love it myself, even though it essentially framed Snape. Here's the link: http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=109904 From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Sun Jun 24 12:00:46 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:00:46 -0000 Subject: the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <20010623204408.14452.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9h4kpe+qjn1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21375 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Danette Schardt-Cordova > > This doesn't mean of course that he wasn't > > changing the subject > > (Arthur sounded quite intense) and he might indeed > > have lost a > > brother to Voldemort. However, if that's the case, > > it was more likely > > an older brother as I don't see why only one child > > would have been > > killed if a DE had attaqued Arthur's familly and it > > seems unlikely > > that Molly would have left a very young child alone. > > Ohhhh...I didn't think of that possiblity. That would > also make it even more unlikely that the younger kids > (F & G, R and G, maybe even P) would know anything > about it. > > Danette I think the whole family would have known about this tragedy, but it is still quite likely that they never talk about it much, especially around other people. I'm sure Ron knows or his "I'm the sixth one of my family to go to Hogwarts" statement doesn't make sense. For some seventh son stuff to work the six older brothers are supposed to be alive at the time of birth, which means Percy and probably Fred/George would have dim memories of the incident. It could have happened I guess anytime from Ron's birth until Voldies defeat (assuming he was responsible) - Bill/Charlie would be at school, missing child/children could be between say 10 and 5, Percy about 4+, F+G 2+ and Ron 0+. It's quite easy to see that Molly/Arthur might make separate care arrangements for an older child/children than for the younger ones. The younger ones would still not remember the terror of the moment or the dark mark. It's all still rather in the realm of wild speculation, but possible non-the-less. Florence From maestrie at libero.it Sun Jun 24 15:43:07 2001 From: maestrie at libero.it (Elena Maestri) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:43:07 +0200 Subject: Oops!... I did it again (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21376 Oops! ..I did it again (based on the tune of Oops! ..I did it again by Britney Spears) THE SCENE: the dungeons, at the Double Potions lesson, chapter seven of PoA. The class has to prepare a Shrinking Solution, and Neville works with Hermione. NEVILLE yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I think I did it again! I made a mistake, in a potion for Snape! Oh my dear! SNAPE Let?s see what we have got here: not a Shrinking Solution, ?cause it?s not bright green. Well, as usual, Longbottom, uou have obviously missed certain things! Oh yes, Longbottom! NEVILLE Oops!...I did it again! I?ve tried to behave as a wizard all right, a bad idea. But I think I am wrong; everyone sees that I?m no more than just a Squib! HERMIONE Professor Snape, let me help. I?m finished with mine. You can see that it is, well, so very green. SNAPE Miss Granger, please shut your mouth! No help for Longbottom, he must do this alone. At the end of the lesson we will test this on Trevor the toad! He may die! (in the meantime Hermione helps Neville correcting the potion) NEVILLE Oops!...I did it again! I?ve tried to behave as a wizard all right, a bad idea. But I think I am wrong: everyone sees that I?m no more than just a Squib! Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah (spoken bit) "Here?s the toad" SNAPE "Everyone please gather round: let?s see what happens to this toad.? THE CLASS (after witnessing that the potion had the right effect) "Hey it becomes a tadpole; the Solution is right!? HERMIONE "Yeah, yes it is!" SNAPE (knowing that Hermione has helped Neville) "Five points from Gryffindor. Class dismissed." HARRY (while leaving the classroom) ?Hermione, you should have lied to Snape.? RON (looking for Hermione who ?disappeared?) ?Where is she?? NEVILLE Oops!... I did it again by myself, got punished, once more and again! Oops!... You think I am no wizard at all: I?m really not a Squib! Oops!...I did it again! I?ve tried to behave as a wizard all right, a bad idea. But I guess I am wrong: everyone thinks that I?m no more than just a Squib! Oops!...I did it again! I?ve tried to behave as a wizard all right, a bad idea. But I know I am wrong: everyone knows that I?m no more than just a Squib! (Everyone leaves the classroom) Elena From browneyes1420 at aol.com Sat Jun 23 16:00:24 2001 From: browneyes1420 at aol.com (browneyes1420 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:00:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] More about Lucius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21377 In a message dated 6/20/01 8:04:24 PM Central Daylight Time, pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it writes: > And Draco is, IMO, just a mere shadow of his father. At least, I > can't imagine Lucius at the age of 13 squealing "He's killed me, he's > killed me", when injured by a Hippogriff. Draco is just copying what oe > he sees his father doing, and not giving a very convincing > kperformance. That's why I don't agree with those speaking of Lucius > as a child- abuser: He just wanted a son he could be proud of and has > got only Draco ( who seems to be the only son)---serves him right!!!, > the put-down Draco gets in the shop at Knockturn Alley won't be > neither the first nor the last. > > I Know I'm late responding to this but I have a problem with Draco being evil through and through. He strikes me as the type who has been mislead. I think he IS the heir of Slytherin and Harry is the heir of Gryffindor. I think Draco and Harry will become friends, and Draco will help Harry and Hermi defeat Voldi. Ron strikes me as a pettigrew . Please I do not mean to insult all Ron lovers. Joe [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jun 24 19:10:10 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Jun 2001 19:10:10 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups Message-ID: <993409810.7250.38440.qc@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21378 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups group. File : /Fan Fiction/Ginny The Vampire Slayer/gtvsseason1episode5.htm Uploaded by : keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk Description : Stalkers You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan%20Fiction/Ginny%20The%20Vampire%20Slayer/gtvsseason1episode5.htm To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Jun 24 19:19:25 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:19:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's mission accomplished, In-Reply-To: <9h46ai+516v@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010624121430.00c3b940@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21379 At 07:53 AM 6/24/01 +0000, pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it wrote: >Please, plese, tell me what you think about all this!! I agree with what you say, and hope that if Snape doesn't start respecting Harry, Harry at least starts respecting Snape. (I though he was going to in the Chamber of Secrets when he says to Lockhart, "You shouldn't have let *Professor* Snape teach us that one!" and was disappointed when things were back to status quo over the next two books. But perhaps it will change now.) -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun Jun 24 19:20:53 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:20:53 -0700 Subject: Another Snape = bat similie spotting Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010624121941.00c3d6c0@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21380 Another for the Snape-as-Vampire proponents: "A bad idea, Professor Lockhart," said Snape, gliding over like a large and malevolent bat. (CoS, Chapter 11) -- Dave From joym999 at aol.com Sun Jun 24 19:48:39 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:48:39 -0000 Subject: the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9h4kpe+qjn1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h5g6n+s25c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21381 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" wrote: > I think the whole family would have known about this tragedy, but it > is still quite likely that they never talk about it much, especially > around other people. I'm sure Ron knows or his "I'm the sixth one of > my family to go to Hogwarts" statement doesn't make sense. > > For some seventh son stuff to work the six older brothers are supposed > to be alive at the time of birth, which means Percy and probably > Fred/George would have dim memories of the incident. > > It could have happened I guess anytime from Ron's birth until Voldies > defeat [snip] If there is indeed a missing Weasley son, it would make sense for him to fall somewhere between Charlie and Percy, since as somebody once pointed out, the Weasley males names are more or less alphabetical: A--Arthur B--Bill C--Charlie D--the hypothetical dead son (Dilbert Weasley?) E--Percy (ok, Percy begins with a P but maybe it is a nickname and his real name is Ethelbert Percival Weasley. You see, they were going to call him Edward, but Great-Uncle Ethelbert died right before he was born, so they had to name him Ethelbert but they didnt have the heart to actually call the poor kid Ethelbert so they called him Percy. Hey, I like it!) F--Fred G--George H--Ron (ok, his name should start with H. Maybe Arthur and Molly were going to name him Harry, but something made them change their minds. Hmmmmmmm.) Well, its a theory, anyway. --Joywitch From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com Sun Jun 24 20:38:55 2001 From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:38:55 -0000 Subject: Harry respecting Snape, Vampire etc. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010624121430.00c3b940@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9h5j4v+a3vn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21382 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > (I though he was going to in the Chamber of Secrets when > he says to Lockhart, "You shouldn't have let *Professor* > Snape teach us that one!" and was disappointed when things > were back to status quo over the next two books. But perhaps > it will change now.) > I know, I know. I love that scene in CoS. *Professor* Snape. LOL. But I think Snape has a way getting to Harry. If Harry starts respecting Snape, I think Snape will just have to go up to a higer level of vindictiveness still. (Although I can't think of anything that can top 'I see no difference'.) I thought there may be grounds for better relation at the end of SS/PS or the beginning of CoS. If Harry had just gone to thank Snape for saving his life or apologise for his false accusation etc, it could have been the turning point of their relationship. Too late for that now. The Vampire: Oh, another bat reference. May be Snape was transfigured into a bat once by the Marauders, made to stay in that form for weeks and now he can't get out of the habit of walking like a bat. From editor at texas.net Sun Jun 24 21:43:45 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 16:43:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Hogwarts Arms (not a pub) - Timeline - Molly's Age References: <3B356E3A.14AE4FBC@wicca.net> Message-ID: <3B365F10.7B30FFF7@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21383 Rita Winston wrote: > Danette wrote: > > Does anyone know where tuo find a picture of the > > *color* version of the coat of arms on the Web? > > http://www.sylvanlaneshoppe.com/xpress_611288.jpg > is a good-sized picture of a WB licensed mug with a picture of the > arms on one side. Note that this is the one that has altered the position of the eagle's wings, to where the wingtips are down. Otherwise it's faithful to the drawing in the book. --Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 21:59:42 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skeeter & Snape's Task In-Reply-To: <3B341530.9AE962E5@wicca.net> Message-ID: <20010624215942.51843.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21384 - > I deeply resent the noxious Ms. Skeeter having *stolen* my personal > name, Rita. Why not Dita Skeeter like Dita Bear Maybe that's Snape's task: he has to go undercover to woo Skeeter to find out if she's passing info. No wonder Dumbledore asked him twice if he was ready. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 22:18:16 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic quill, Cho, Wandless, LM, SB, GL, DM, Pivotal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010624221816.54929.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21385 > Magda wrote: > > >I can see him: > > > >1. Developing a crush on Hermione and trying to impress her with > >name-dropping, flashing his family's wealth and other Malfoy-ish > >tactics that won't work, to his bafflement. He could also brag to > >her about V's doings (as he hears them from Daddy) and she might > >put up with him just to get the info. > > I can see the former, but is he dumb enough for the latter? He's not dumb enough to give her chapter-and-verse descriptions about V's activities but he might make what he thinks are fiendishly obscure hints or allusions, not realizing how smart she is and that the Trio are busy figuring things out. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 22:36:35 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wizard Aging Process In-Reply-To: <9gtqoj+5i0c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010624223635.59551.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21386 Something has been bugging me about the wizard aging process. Dumbledore is 150 (or so). McGonigall is 75ish. Now this would make sense if a wizard ages one year for every two Muggle years: a man of 75 is old and a woman of 37ish is middle-aged (sorry if anyone out there faints over this). So that's nice and logical. AND... Snape is 35 (or so). Does he act like a 17 year old? Yes, sometimes. BUT... THe trio is 11 to 14 in four books and they reflect their ages just as they would if they were muggles. So my question is: when does a wizard's aging process slow down so he/she can reach the 100 plus stage? When you hit adulthood? When you reach 70 or so? Is it simply an extended old age? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 22:48:13 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: enigmatic Bill .... the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9h2cpi+94us@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010624224813.55032.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21387 It isn't necessary to assume that the DE's killed a Weasley child. It could be that Arthur was promoted during that period and his responsibilities kept him away from home quite a bit during that time. While Arthur does indeed wince as he describes what the Dark Mark would signify to wizards and witches, we should remember that he is speaking in front of Harry. Arthur, IMO, is being delicate about his words to avoid causing Harry pain by remembering the circumstances of his parents deaths. Had Arthur lost a child, he would have been much more emotional about the subject. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From samiamthelast at hotmail.com Sun Jun 24 22:56:48 2001 From: samiamthelast at hotmail.com (Samantha Boylan) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 18:56:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Aging Process Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21388 From: Magda Grantwich Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Aging Process Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Something has been bugging me about the wizard aging process. Dumbledore is 150 (or so). McGonigall is 75ish. Now this would make sense if a wizard ages one year for every two Muggle years: a man of 75 is old and a woman of 37ish is middle-aged (sorry if anyone out there faints over this). So that's nice and logical. AND... Snape is 35 (or so). Does he act like a 17 year old? Yes, sometimes. BUT... THe trio is 11 to 14 in four books and they reflect their ages just as they would if they were muggles. So my question is: when does a wizard's aging process slow down so he/she can reach the 100 plus stage? When you hit adulthood? When you reach 70 or so? Is it simply an extended old age? >>>>>>>>> I've alway seen it as changing after you hit the top of the hill. Once you reach about 30(when you begin to deteriorate), you begin to age more slowly. Just my theory, Sam I Am The Last __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Jun 25 01:29:52 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 01:29:52 -0000 Subject: Wizard Aging Process In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9h646g+qeqh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21389 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Samantha Boylan" wrote: > > > > From: Magda Grantwich > Reply-To: HPforGrownups at y... > To: HPforGrownups at y... > Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Aging Process > Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:36:35 -0700 (PDT) > > Something has been bugging me about the wizard aging process. > > Dumbledore is 150 (or so). McGonigall is 75ish. > > Now this would make sense if a wizard ages one year for every two > Muggle years: a man of 75 is old and a woman of 37ish is middle-aged > (sorry if anyone out there faints over this). So that's nice and > logical. > > AND... > > Snape is 35 (or so). Does he act like a 17 year old? Yes, > sometimes. > > BUT... > > THe trio is 11 to 14 in four books and they reflect their ages just > as they would if they were muggles. > > So my question is: when does a wizard's aging process slow down so > he/she can reach the 100 plus stage? When you hit adulthood? When > you reach 70 or so? Is it simply an extended old age? > > > >>>>>>>>> > I've alway seen it as changing after you hit the top of the hill. Once you > reach about 30(when you begin to deteriorate), you begin to age more slowly. > Just my theory, > Sam I Am The Last I see wizards as maturing at the same rate as muggles, but having an extended adulthood and an old age that is relatively impervious (from a muggle viewpoint) to the physical ravages of aging. Or, at least, they don't show the effects of old age until they are REALLY old. To compare the aging thing in a different direction, my vet has a chart on cat ages. The first year of a cat's life equals 15 of a human's, which makes sense since a cat goes from birth to sexual maturity within about 6 months. The second year equals 24 in human terms and then you figure 4 years per every human year for the rest of the cat's life. I see a reverse progression for wizards. Once they reach maturity, and I'm assuming not just sexual maturity, but also adult-responsibility-type maturity, then the muggle to wizard time ratio becomes something like 1 muggle year equals 1/2 wizard year. Which then leads to another question. If you are a wizard married to a muggle, and your muggle spouse dies at a normal muggle age, is it customary/unheard of/possible to find a new (wizard) partner, remarry and start a second family? To my knowledge, we have no evidence of this sort of second-tier family in canon, although the possibilities might prove interesting. Marianne From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jun 25 02:37:57 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:37:57 -0700 Subject: Wizard Aging Process Message-ID: <3B36A405.EDA1515B@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21390 Zarleycat wrote: > If you are a wizard married to a muggle, and your > muggle spouse dies at a normal muggle age, is it > customary/unheard of/possible to find a new (wizard) > partner, remarry and start a second family? Or a new Muggle partner. Based not on canon, but on the fact that the wizarding folk are human beings, I feel it's not that unusual for a never-married wizard aged 100 to marry a nice witch aged 25 and have a few children, spaced at convenient 10 or 20 year intervals. She'll be in the market for a second husband in another 50 years, sooner if he got mixed up with Death Eaters and so on. Magda Grantwich wrote: > Something has been bugging me about the wizard aging process. > Dumbledore is 150 (or so). McGonigall is 75ish. > Now this would make sense if a wizard ages one year for every two > Muggle years: a man of 75 is old and a woman of 37ish is middle-aged (snip) > Snape is 35 (or so). Does he act like a 17 year old? Yes, sometimes. > > THe trio is 11 to 14 in four books and they reflect their ages just > as they would if they were muggles. (snip) > So my question is: when does a wizard's aging process slow down so > he/she can reach the 100 plus stage? When you hit adulthood? When > you reach 70 or so? Is it simply an extended old age? > I take 'Snape is around 35 or 36' to mean he was around 35 or 36 in PoA. Born 1957-8, aged 42-43 in 2001. Anyway, his emotional immaturity is not reflected by his apparent physical age, which could perfectly well be early 30s. As if he, like the kids, has been aging one for one so far. In the Young Tom Riddle flashback in CoS, that was 50 years ago, so Dumbledore was 100, but his hair was still auburn. i don't think I know ANY men of 50 with NO gray in their hair -- some are already quite silver by that age. That suggests that Dumbledore aged slower than one for two in his first 100 years. Meanwhile, as a Muggle woman of 43, I am quite sure that McGonagall is older than me, not just older than 37. She also has been aging more than one for two, altho' less than one for one. Altho she is for sure not over 60 in Muggle years. My time line has Bill born in 1965-6 school year (could be born one year later if only one year older than Charlie not two years older), which would make him 29 in GoF, and Charlie 27 in GoF, and they both seemed slightly younger than that. I think the previous guesses were 24-25 for Bill and 22-23 for Charlie. So they have concealed around 4 years each. The example of Bill and Charlie suggests that the aging slows down starting even before the full maturity of, say, 25. *counts on fingers* Suppose they reach age 21 and then start aging at one for two for a while ... Bill = 21 + 1/2(29-21=8) = 25, okay, Charlie = 21 + 1/2(27-21=6) = 24, not so okay, Snape = 21 + 1/2(35-21=14) = 28, I don't think so.... Dumbledore in TMR Diary = 21 + 1/2(100-21=79) = 60, i don't think so... I don't see how to fix a system that makes Charlie and Albus come out more aged than they really are AND Severus less aged. -- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu Mon Jun 25 03:46:29 2001 From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 03:46:29 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Files Cleanup Message-ID: <9h6c6l+n2dr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21391 It's time for our semi-annual Files Area Cleanup, so I'd like to ask everyone who has posted any files in the top level directory to move them into an appropriate sub-folder. If something is out of date and no longer relevant, please delete it. Only the person who posted a file is allowed to edit, move or delete it (other than a moderator or the list owner, of course). Anything that isn't moved to a subdirectory by Tuesday evening will be taken care of by the Mod Squad, but nothing will be deleted. I hope that people will also take the opportunity to browse through our files. We have some interesting stuff both here and on our sibling group, HPforGrownUps-Graphics. Jim Flanagan Moderator-in-charge-of-messy-files From colin at ccomm.com Mon Jun 25 04:39:50 2001 From: colin at ccomm.com (Colin) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:39:50 -0000 Subject: I've just posted some of my fics here... Message-ID: <9h6fam+rsek@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21392 And I'm supposed to make an announcement here, right? That's what I've heard, anyway. So yes. They're up. Feel free to peruse and laugh. ;) ===== Yours truly, Colin "If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of your life." --Brooke Shields "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the show?" --Anon. From caitie_liz at hotmail.com Mon Jun 25 05:35:05 2001 From: caitie_liz at hotmail.com (Caitlin MacCallum) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:35:05 -0000 Subject: the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9h5g6n+s25c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h6ii9+74bp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21393 Maybe there is a missing Weasley child, it seems a likely possibility. In response to the alphebetical Weasley names, wouldn't Bill actually be William? That would skew the albphebet theory. Florence metioned it not making sense that Ron said he was the sixth Weasley to attend Hogwarts...he's right : Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred, George and that makes Ron number 6. From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Mon Jun 25 05:36:17 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:36:17 -0000 Subject: the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9h5g6n+s25c@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h6ikh+tmms@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21394 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > If there is indeed a missing Weasley son, it would make sense for > him to fall somewhere between Charlie and Percy, since as somebody > once pointed out, the Weasley males names are more or less > alphabetical: > > A--Arthur > B--Bill > C--Charlie > D--the hypothetical dead son (Dilbert Weasley?) Obviously, it's DEAD Weasley. ;^) > E--Percy (ok, Percy begins with a P but maybe it is a nickname and > his real name is Ethelbert Percival Weasley. [SNIP] OK, I've got the cool tie-it-all-together theory here!!! Percy is REALLY named.... ....drumroll..... Evans Perseus Weasley, after Snape's anagrammatical alter ego! > F--Fred > G--George > H--Ron (ok, his name should start with H. Maybe Arthur and Molly > were going to name him Harry, but something made them change their > minds. Hmmmmmmm.) > > Well, it's a theory, anyway. Or maybe, *JKR* was going have the books be about *Ronald* Potter and his best friend *Harry* Weasley, but then decided that names didn't sound good. Just listen to their sing-song rhythm: DAH-duh DAH-duh & DAH-dee DEE-dee. Also "hairy weasel" sure bodes ill.... ....Craig From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Mon Jun 25 05:50:38 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:50:38 -0000 Subject: the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9h6ii9+74bp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h6jfe+7eih@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21395 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caitlin MacCallum" wrote: > In response to the alphebetical Weasley names, wouldn't Bill > actually be William? That would skew the alphabet theory. But you assume that Bill is a nickname; it doesn't have to be. I have a family of friends whose given names (of the ones I know) are respectively: Jamie, Corrie, Jennie, Annie, Lindsie - two boys, three girls, and that's how the names appear on their birth certificates. So, if Arthur and Molly wanted Bill to be named Bill and not William, I'm sure they could have arranged it to be that way. > Florence metioned it not making sense that Ron said he was the > sixth Weasley to attend Hogwarts...he's right : Bill, Charlie, > Percy, Fred, George and that makes Ron number 6. True, if the hypothetical missing Weasley son died while still younger than 11, he would not have attended Hogwarts.... ....Craig From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Mon Jun 25 06:35:11 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 06:35:11 -0000 Subject: Who is Lucius Malfoy's informant? Message-ID: <9h6m2v+t2pi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21396 I'm re-reading CoS at the time and something is bothering me: Dobby came to Harry in Privet Drive to warn him about the danger he would be in when returning to Hogwarts. His exact words are: "There is a plot, Harry Potter. A plot to make most terrible things happen at Hogwarts...this year.<>Dobby has known it for months, sir...." 1) How did Dobby come to know about the plot? Certainly overhearing Lucius talking to somebody about his evil intentions. But who did he talk to? Now, IMHO, not to his wife Narcissa. This is just a feeling of mine, but based also on the fact that Narcissa isn't a DE (we know, from the Lestranges, that there are DE couples). I don't think Lucius talks "politics" with her. So the big question is: Who did he talk to? 2) In Cos, the Weasleys go for the traditional Diagon Alley-shopping on some day in August, not on the last day before school starts, as they do in PoA and GoF- just some day. The question that seems obvious to me is: How did Lucius know they were to go there on this particular day? The apriori for putting the problem this way is of course that he was targeting Ginny in the first place, which I believe he did: She was in many ways the ideal victim- girls of that age are more likely to write diaries than boys are; and certainly the youngest sister of six brothers would have something to write! Of course, he could've put the diary in some of the school books just at random, somebody would have bought it anyway, but it might have been a 7th year boy. Riddle has certainly told Lucius WHAT to do, but who told him WHEN to do it? 3) I'm not an English native speaker, but unless I'm very much mistaken, a plot is something that requires more than one person?! Excluding Narcissa, as I did above, this seems another clue to somebody else being involved. Maybe someone's got suggestions? susanna From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Jun 25 09:25:49 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:25:49 -0000 Subject: CHAP. 16 SUMMARY: Trelawney's Prediction Message-ID: <9h702t+iiiq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21397 It's exam time at Hogwarts. Hermione has several exams scheduled at the same time and is showing some strain at all the studying she must do. The news that an executioner will be at Buckbeak's appeal makes Harry and friends believe that the appeal process has been unduly influenced by the Malfoys. The final for DADA consists of an obstacle course created by Professor Lupin. Harry receives full marks, Ron has a problem with the hinkypunk and Hermione's boggart is McGonagall, who tells Hermione that she fails all her exams. On the way back to the castle, the three run into Cornelius Fudge, who tells them hs is there to be the required witness to the execution of a mad hippogriff. Ron confronts Fudge by reminding him that, as the appeal has not yet been heard, perhaps there will be no need for an execution. However, at this point two other wizards join Fudge, one of them a tall, black-mustached man fingering an ax. Harry, Ron and Hermione eat a quiet lunch, lost in worry about Hagrid and Buckbeak. After lunch Harry and Ron go off to their Divination final. Professor Trelawney examines each student individually. Ron and Harry are the last to be tested. Harry, like Ron, sees nothing in the crystal ball, so makes up a vision of seeing a hippogriff with its head firmly in place. He sticks to this story even though Trelawney attempts to guide his vision towards seeing the hippogriff with its head chopped off. As Harry turns to leave the tower, Trelawney's voice becomes harsh and loud. She appears to be having some sort of seizure. Then she speaks and predicts that the Dark Lord's servant will break free to rejoin his master before midnight. When she comes back to herself Harry tells her what she said. She brushes him off, saying she wouldn't presume to make that sort of prediction. When Harry gets back to the Gryffindor common room, all thoughts of the prediction fly out of his head when he hears that Buckbeak is to be executed. The three frineds decided they'll use the Invisibility Cloak to sneak out to Hagrid's cabin. Hermione volunteers to retrieve the cloak from the passageway under the one-eyed witch, much to Ron's admiration. After dinner the three go to Hagrid's to try to give him some comfort. While in Hagrid's cabin, Hermione finds Scabbers. The rat looks worse than ever and keeps struggling to get away from Ron. This struggle continues as the Trio leave to return to the castle. However, even Scabbers' mad squealing isn't loud enough to drown out the sound of the swish and thud of the ax. Questions: 1. WHen Harry confronted the boggart in the DADA exam, did it turn into a dementor? 2. Lucius Malfoy wields a lot of influence. What does this tell us about the role of status and wealth in wizard society? 3. Trelawney questions Harry's interpretation of his imaginary vision of the hippogriff in the crystal ball. Is this because she knows he's faking it or because she is actually making a prediciton herself about the outcome of the appeal? 4. Why doesn't Trelawney recognize that she has made a prediciton when she speaks about the servant of the Dark Lord? 5. Ron sees Hermione in a different light since she slapped Draco, dropped Divination class and now volunteers to retrieve the Cloak. What is it about her actions that he finds most appealing? Marianne - stay tuned for Chapter 17 From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Jun 25 09:49:36 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:49:36 -0000 Subject: CHAP. 17 SUMMARY: Cat, Rat, and Dog Message-ID: <9h71fg+ltmq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21398 Stunned at the execution of Buckbeak, the Trio walk back towards the castle. Scabbers continues to struggle to get away from Ron, and finaly succeeds, only to be pursued by Crookshanks. Ron gives chase, followed by the other two. Scabbers is recaptured, but suddenly an enormous, pale-eyed, jet-black dog appears. It attacks Ron and drags him into the tunnel under the Whomping Willow, breaking his leg in the process. Crookshanks places his paws on a knot on the tree trunk, which freezes the Willow and allows Harry and Hermione to get into the tunnel to attempt to rescue Ron. They eventually come to a disordered, dusty room, with stained floors and smashed furniture. They realize they're in the Shrieking Shack. Once upstairs they find Ron and Crookshanks in a room with a magnificent four-poster bed. Ron, in pain, tells them the dog is really an Animagus. Harry and Hermoine now find themselves facing Sirius Black. Black remarks that, in coming to try to help his friend, Harry had acted exactly as James Potter would have acted. Harry, filled with rage, lunges forward to attack Black. A tangled battle ensues, ending up with Sirius sprawled on the floor with Crookshanks perched protectively on his chest, and Harry pointing his wand at Black's heart. Muffled footsteps are heard from the floor below, and Professor Lupin burst into the room. He disarms Harry and Hermione, and then asks of Black, "Where is he, Sirius?" Thinking aloud, Remus realizes that a switch had been made without his knowledge. Remus helps Sirius to his feet and embraces him like a brother. Harry and Hermione feel betrayed by Lupin and Hermione screams out that he is a werewolf. In an effort to calm the Trio and explain the situation, Lupin gives them their wands back. Lupin reveals that he was one of the creators of the Marauder's Map, and is also familiar with the Invisibility Cloak. He tells them he had been looking at the Map earlier that evening and saw that the three of them were accompanied by a fourth being once they left Hagrid's. The Map also showed Sirius dragging two of them into the Willow. This makes no sense to the Trio. Ron takes a still struggling Scabbers out of his robes to show Remus. Black tells them that the rat is Peter Pettigrew. Questions: 1. Why does Scabbers try to escape from Ron before the Trio even leaves Hagrid's? 2. JKR has said that Crookshanks is part Kneazle. Kneazles make excellent pets if they take a liking to someone. Why has Crookshanks formed an apparent attachment to Sirius? 3. What stopped Harry from killing Sirius? 4. Why is there a magnificent bed in the Shrieking Shack, when everything else in the building is stained and broken? 5. Should Remus have told Harry earlier in the school year about his true relationship with James? Marianne, off to feed the part-Kneazles that are screaming around her feet. From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 14:03:35 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAP. 17 SUMMARY: Cat, Rat, and Dog In-Reply-To: <9h71fg+ltmq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010625140335.534.qmail@web10906.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21399 1. Why does Scabbers try to escape from Ron before the Trio even leaves Hagrid's? Wasn't he trying to escape the entire time. He knew he was no longer safe with Ron, eventually Sirius would catch up with him. 2. JKR has said that Crookshanks is part Kneazle. Kneazles make excellent pets if they take a liking to someone. Why has Crookshanks formed an apparent attachment to Sirius? Um he has lived the 12 (or about that) years in Azkaben...no real contact with outside world. Since his escape he has lived as a dog *still no real human contact atleast* I'm sure he needed someone to talk to. 3. What stopped Harry from killing Sirius? Paternal love...does that make sense? James would have never killed Sirius and I believe there was a part of James that was telling Harry not to go there. I definitely think that in his heart Harry wanted to believe Sirius and Lupin, I mean who wants to believe that they were betrayed by their best friend. And atleast a part of him still trusted Lupin to some degree. 4. Why is there a magnificent bed in the Shrieking Shack, when everything else in the building is stained and broken? Lupin wanted a nice bed for when he was there...LOL... 5. Should Remus have told Harry earlier in the school year about his true relationship with James? I don't know. It really wasn't neccessary for Harry to know at that point. He was trying to keep everything out of his mind. Especially his friendship with Sirius. Marianne, off to feed the part-Kneazles that are screaming around her feet. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From koinonia02 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 14:06:30 2001 From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:06:30 -0000 Subject: Weasleys/Seventh Son/Missing Child In-Reply-To: <9guhcv+tqk7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h7gh6+r4d0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21400 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JenniferABacker at c... wrote: > > You know that does make some sense. Also it ties into someone's > theory about > > Ron having another brother. Some people Ron is a seer and it'd make > more > > sense if he's the seventh son. Something about seventh sons having > magical > > powers. Ah I don't remember ;x > > > Actually, it is the seventh son of a seventh son who is supposed to > have such powers. Well, we know that the Weaseys run to large > families-- from our sample of one-- so Arthur could well be a seventh > son. That still leaves us in search of Ron's missing older brother. > hmm. > In some folklore the seventh son of a seventh son is endowed with gifts of second sight, predicting the future, healer, lucky. He has a devil may care attitude and is cursed by the good and evil forces battling for his soul. Also, if the seventh child is a girl then she would be a witch. I don't know how this would apply to Ginny as she is already a witch ;) But why couldn't she be the one who is endowed with some special ability? I do find the comments Arthur Weasley made concerning the dark mark interesting. He could well be thinking of a child he has lost. However, surely *all* the family would know about this child, regardless of when the child was born or how the child died. Why would they not talk about their loved one? It could be that all the family does know but they don't feel the need to bring the subject up to those outside the family. Dave Hardenbrook said in message 21187: >This is a good point - I think Ron is an *unconscious* Seer, so the >moments when his "Seer-ness" comes out are not when he's consciously >making a prediction or judgement, but when he's making a "random" >statement like a joke. I tend to agree with that. Someone might have brought this up but what about when Ron joked about Harry getting 'a windfall, unexpected gold.' I know there are other examples like that but I don't have time to look them up. I just hope that if Ron turns out to be a seer that there is a difference between what Ron can foretell and what he hopes will happen. PoA: 'Why couldn't Black have hidden in Snape's office, eh? He could have finished him off for us!' Koinonia From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Mon Jun 25 14:52:50 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:52:50 -0000 Subject: Who is Lucius Malfoy's informant? In-Reply-To: <9h6m2v+t2pi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h7j82+soin@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21401 Really good questions! According to Dumbledore at the end of the book, Lucius sets TMR's diary on Ginny specifically because she is Arthur Weasley's daughter, and he is trying to overturn the Muggle Protection Act (I'm not sure that's the name) that Arthur Weasley had just submitted. Although you're right in saying how on earth was Lucius to know when the Weasleys would be going to Diagon Alley. The question is what are Lucius' real motives? Is it just to get Arthur Weasley or is it something Harry-related? If Lucius' intention was to get Ginny and her father in trouble, what does Harry have to do with that? I suppose he reasoned that TMR would go after Harry... I see what you mean about Narcissa in a way, because it seems Draco had no idea either. Do you think Lucius talked to TMR via the diary and Dobby witnessed this? The whole Dobby thing is still a mystery to me - I know that the reason he came to warn Harry was because he is Harry Potter and he rescued house elves from something really bad by 'defeating' Voldemort. The other thing is, and I was never able to figure this one out - why does Lucius bring Dobby with him when he comes back to Hogwarts at the end of the book? There seems to be no reason given for this. From wings909 at aol.com Mon Jun 25 14:59:57 2001 From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:59:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is Lucius Malfoy's informant? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21402 I've been working on a story telling the events of CoS from Ginny Weasley's PoV and have often thought about this topic myself. I think Dobby perhaps might have known about the diary; perhaps Lucius had been writing in it himself and was under the orders of TR. As a house-elf, I think that they go relatively unnoticed in the homes, so Lucius could have been a bit careless about leaving around information such as the diary or even perhaps Dobby caught Lucius writing in it. Dobby knew Lucius was a dark wizard. He could have been overheard talking to someone as well, as you say. Perhaps one of his other DE friends? Crabbe and Goyle Srs are the first to come to mind. And I do believe Ginny was the target, no doubt about it in my mind. She's the youngest daughter of his enemy, new student at Hogwarts, Ginny is the perfect person to plant the diary on. As for how Lucius planted the diary, like you, that's another question that I've been pondering. It does seem to be a bit random, yet I don't believe that is the case. Perhaps Lucius is a bit of a diviner? :) My other random guess is that with the letters Dobby took from Harry, most likely in a letter Hermione writes, the date of the Hogwarts trip was mentioned. We don't see what happens to the letters that Dobby stole, so it could be possible that Lucius might have had them from Dobby. Seems highly unlikely, but its the only think I could think of. Cheers, Paula Queen of H/G In a message dated Mon, 25 Jun 2001 3:02:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it writes: << I'm re-reading CoS at the time and something is bothering me: Dobby came to Harry in Privet Drive to warn him about the danger he would be in when returning to Hogwarts. His exact words are: "There is a plot, Harry Potter. A plot to make most terrible things happen at Hogwarts...this year.<>Dobby has known it for months, sir...." 1) How did Dobby come to know about the plot? Certainly overhearing Lucius talking to somebody about his evil intentions. But who did he talk to? Now, IMHO, not to his wife Narcissa. This is just a feeling of mine, but based also on the fact that Narcissa isn't a DE (we know, from the Lestranges, that there are DE couples). I don't think Lucius talks "politics" with her. So the big question is: Who did he talk to? 2) In Cos, the Weasleys go for the traditional Diagon Alley-shopping on some day in August, not on the last day before school starts, as they do in PoA and GoF- just some day. The question that seems obvious to me is: How did Lucius know they were to go there on this particular day? The apriori for putting the problem this way is of course that he was targeting Ginny in the first place, which I believe he did: She was in many ways the ideal victim- girls of that age are more likely to write diaries than boys are; and certainly the youngest sister of six brothers would have something to write! Of course, he could've put the diary in some of the school books just at random, somebody would have bought it anyway, but it might have been a 7th year boy. Riddle has certainly told Lucius WHAT to do, but who told him WHEN to do it? 3) I'm not an English native speaker, but unless I'm very much mistaken, a plot is something that requires more than one person?! Excluding Narcissa, as I did above, this seems another clue to somebody else being involved. Maybe someone's got suggestions? susanna _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> From pennylin at swbell.net Mon Jun 25 16:02:55 2001 From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:02:55 -0500 Subject: FANFICTION (Please Read) (yes, ADMIN included) Message-ID: <3B3760AF.4F649FD6@swbell.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21403 Hi everyone -- The Moderator Team has had another flurry of discussions this morning. We are all in agreement that this group is not the place for Fanfic to be uploaded. There are numerous other HP fanfic groups out there (even if you are boycotting fanfiction.net). Try HP_Fanfic at yahoogroups.com for example. We are aware that a large number of our members read, enjoy & even write fanfic. However, this group's main purpose remains discussion of the HP books. As I mentioned above, we believe that there are plenty of fanfic groups to satisfy your need for HP fanfic discussions. The Moderators are debating whether or not we should create another sister group (like Announcements & OT-Chatter) to house fanfics of our members. However, until a decision is made, these are the House Rules on fanfic (beware: fail to heed the Rules may garner you the wrath of Neil in his Hairnet -- ) : 1. Do not upload Fanfic to the Files area. If you have uploaded fanfic to our Files area in the past, please be sure that it is housed somewhere else as we are doing a Files clean-out and plan to remove all fanfic and other old files in the next 2 weeks. 2. Do not send Fanfic to the group by including it in a message to the group. 3. If you wish to let members of the group know about your fanfic and where it can be read, please post a message to the Announcements list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements 4. All discussions of Fanfic should be taken to the OT-Chatter list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter 5. Discussions about fanfic *in general* (NOT specific fanfics) can be done on this group, but please put the abbreviation FF (short for Fanfic) in your subject heading as several members have no interest in fanfic. Please don't do the following though: -- Ask for plot ideas for your fanfic -- Ask for fanfic recommendations -- Discuss or ask questions about specific fanfic authors or stories All of the above is appropriate for OT-Chatter of course. :--) Thanks!! Penny The Moderator Team From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Mon Jun 25 15:52:46 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:52:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FANFICTION (Please Read) (yes, ADMIN included ) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21404 Penny forgot to get her post beta-read! She wrote: > There are numerous other HP fanfic groups out > there (even > if you are boycotting fanfiction.net). Try HP_Fanfic at yahoogroups.com > for example. > It's actually HP_FanFiction at yahoogroups.com Shays and Yael are doing wonderful things there - hope to see all of you who want to read and/or write fanfiction! From monika at darwin.inka.de Mon Jun 25 16:02:43 2001 From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:02:43 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAP. 17 SUMMARY: Cat, Rat, and Dog In-Reply-To: <9h71fg+ltmq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21405 > Questions: > > 1. Why does Scabbers try to escape from Ron before the Trio even > leaves Hagrid's? Why had he faked his own death some time before? Sorry to answer your question with another question. ;-) But seriously, he must have thought that he didn't run away far enough the first time (after faking his death and leaving Crookshanks as the "bad guy"), and I wonder why he stayed at Hagrid's hut. Maybe his intentions already were to return to his master? > 2. JKR has said that Crookshanks is part Kneazle. Kneazles make > excellent pets if they take a liking to someone. Why has Crookshanks > formed an apparent attachment to Sirius? I just think that Sirius, being a dog in his Animagus form, has perhaps a thing for animals. He also keeps Buckbeak around after his escape, and I always thought it wasn't only as a transportation means, but also for company. And Crookshanks is perhaps the first creature he comes in contact with after his escape. He is extremely lonely, he hasn't anybody to talk to, and this is at least some sort of company. Also, cats have the reputation to have always been around witches and wizards, and Crookshanks has certainly sensed that Sirius was a good guy, like he had sensed that Scabbers was a bad guy. And apart from Hermione, no one exactly liked him in the first place, so he looked somewhere else for company. > 3. What stopped Harry from killing Sirius? His innate sense for justice, I'd say. He can't kill anyone who is without defense. This isn't something like blowing your aunt up, killing is irreparable, and Harry can't do it. > 4. Why is there a magnificent bed in the Shrieking Shack, when > everything else in the building is stained and broken? Good question. I always thought that this was kind of weird. Maybe everything else is broken because Lupin always stayed downstairs when he transformed? Just an idea, not a very good one I suppose... > 5. Should Remus have told Harry earlier in the school year about his > true relationship with James? They are all very secretive about what happened to the Potters, and I think Lupin is no exception here. Also, think of the painful memories all this evokes - I think Lupin had just tried to forget everything during the last twelve years, and then he is confronted with Harry who looks just like James. I guess it needs time to adapt to such a situation. I think he had his reasons for not saying anything, and the thought of Sirius whom he believed to be a traitor must have been very painful, too. I can somehow understand that he didn't say anything. > Marianne, off to feed the part-Kneazles that are screaming around her > feet. I would love to see a photo of those, lol! Monika ------ Book and movie reviews in English and German: http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Mon Jun 25 16:32:27 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:32:27 -0000 Subject: enigmatic Bill .... the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <20010624224813.55032.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9h7p2r+dcak@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21406 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich wrote: > It isn't necessary to assume that the DE's killed a Weasley child. > It could be that Arthur was promoted during that period and his > responsibilities kept him away from home quite a bit during that > time. > > While Arthur does indeed wince as he describes what the Dark Mark > would signify to wizards and witches, we should remember that he is > speaking in front of Harry. Arthur, IMO, is being delicate about his > words to avoid causing Harry pain by remembering the circumstances of > his parents deaths. Had Arthur lost a child, he would have been much > more emotional about the subject. > It could be Arthur and Molly lost other family members (parents, brothers, sisters) during the Voldemort years. Or, maybe Molly is the step-mother of Bill and Charlie. She and Arthur could have been Hogwarts sweethearts and broke up after graduation. Arthur marries another woman, who later dies (maybe killed by DEs?) after Charlie is born. Then he and Molly met again and pick up where they left off. They marry. Bill and Charlie call Molly 'mum', because she's the only one they remember. Lots has been said of the Weasley's lack of remembrance of this hypothesized lost child. Here's a quote from "The Story of the Treasure Seekers" by E. Nesbit that I think sums up the Weasley perspective on this speculative topic. "Our Mother is dead, and if you think we don't care because I don't tell you much about her you only show that you do not understand people at all. " Milz From BrownieH6 at aol.com Mon Jun 25 16:56:08 2001 From: BrownieH6 at aol.com (BrownieH6 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:56:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: enigmatic Bill .... the missing Weasley child Message-ID: <39.16b24940.2868c728@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21407 Don't you think, though, that if there was a missing Weasley child, or is Molly was a step-mother, that Ron would have mentioned something to Harry about it by now? I can't see Ron not knowing about something like that, or not telling Harry at some point. MA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kabuki_darling at hotmail.com Mon Jun 25 17:28:35 2001 From: kabuki_darling at hotmail.com (Sylph ~*~) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:28:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAP. 17 SUMMARY: Cat, Rat, and Dog Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21408 Well, Scabbers ran away in the first place, right? Since Sirius had broken into the dorm and was obviously looking for him. Scabbers had a great hiding place in Hagrid's shack-can you expect Sirius to look there, if he knew Scabbers was gone and he didn't kill him? So Scabbers was obviously trying to get back to his best hiding place, IMHO. >From: Zarleycat at aol.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAP. 17 SUMMARY: Cat, Rat, and Dog >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:49:36 -0000 > >Stunned at the execution of Buckbeak, the Trio walk back towards the >castle. Scabbers continues to struggle to get away from Ron, and >finaly succeeds, only to be pursued by Crookshanks. > >Questions: > >1. Why does Scabbers try to escape from Ron before the Trio even >leaves Hagrid's? > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From kabuki_darling at hotmail.com Mon Jun 25 17:38:14 2001 From: kabuki_darling at hotmail.com (Sylph ~*~) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:38:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] the missing Weasley child Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21409 Hello Group, I just recently joined, so I never saw the original post for 'the missing Weasley child'. I was wondering why you started hypothesizing about a missing child in the first place? So far the theories all sound very plausible, if only I knew why you were making them in the first place... :) Sylph _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Mon Jun 25 17:39:58 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:39:58 -0000 Subject: enigmatic Bill .... the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <39.16b24940.2868c728@aol.com> Message-ID: <9h7t1e+prus@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21410 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., BrownieH6 at a... wrote: > Don't you think, though, that if there was a missing Weasley child, or is > Molly was a step-mother, that Ron would have mentioned something to Harry > about it by now? I can't see Ron not knowing about something like that, or > not telling Harry at some point. > > MA > Actually no, I've very seldom discussed my brother who died when I was 7 with anyone (you lot being cyber-friends don't count, sorry). But I totally relate to Rons statement that he's "the 6th TO GO TO HOGWARTS" (it's not the 6th bit that's odd, but why he didn't he just say he was the sixth child?). I usually go to any lengths to avoid a direct answer to any question relating to how many older siblings I have. It could well be a "Britsh reserve" thing and that we're less open about discussing such matters as Americans. However I'm still not sure about the 7th son theory, I sort of feel JKR would have given us more clues if it was true, and this could be just an odd comment by Ron, and Arthur could be refering to parents or siblings or friends or anyone when he speaks of the dark mark. Florence From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 25 18:04:20 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:04:20 -0000 Subject: Three Little Thugs (filk) Message-ID: <9h7uf4+atbl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21411 Three Little Thugs (To the tune of Three Little Maids, from The Mikado) Dedicated to Chris Dosset and Lisa THE SCENE: The Great Hall. Enter DRACO MALFOY, VINCENT CRABBE and GREGORY GOYLE ALL: Three little thugs from school are we We'll break the caps of both your knees Through magical delinquency Three little thugs from school C: We're forming tight little male bonds G: Nobody's safe when we have our wands M: I'm the most gorgeous, being blonde ALL: Cute little thugs from school Three little thugs who quite contrary Meaner than Curly, Moe and Larry Make it their mission to harass Harry Three little thugs from school C: One little thug just slithered in G: Two thugs ask where the third one's been M: Executing a cardinal sin ALL: Three little thugs from school M: When three little thugs master Dark Arts C: Gryffindor will not feel so smart G: After we've torn them all apart ALL: Three little thugs from school . Three little thugs by the name of Goyle Vince Crabbe and Draco Malfoy'll Keep trying to make Mudblood boil Three little thugs who rule! (Enter, from several directions, FRED, GEORGE, RON, HERMIONE & HARRY, who simultaneously hex them with their wands. Slowly exit MALFOY, CRABBE & GOYLE to Pomfrey's) - CMC From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 25 18:42:58 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:42:58 -0000 Subject: CHAP. 16 SUMMARY: Trelawney's Prediction In-Reply-To: <9h702t+iiiq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h80ni+tcbr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21412 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > 1. WHen Harry confronted the boggart in the DADA exam, did it turn > into a dementor? I would assume so. Throughout PoA, Harry's fear is the dementors and as the story progresses, his ability to fight them off gets stronger. His good marks in DADA are an indication of how he'll be able to fight the dementors later when he really needs to. > 2. Lucius Malfoy wields a lot of influence. What does this tell us > about the role of status and wealth in wizard society? I see the Malfoys as not only wealthy, but a family that has been around for quite a long time. They also seem quite resourceful, so I'd say that status and wealth is not only respected, but when used well, can wield power as well. That's what Lucius Malfoy is - high in status, wealth, and cleverness. > 3. Trelawney questions Harry's interpretation of his imaginary > vision of the hippogriff in the crystal ball. Is this because she > knows he's faking it or because she is actually making a prediciton > herself about the outcome of the appeal? I think she simply believes that Buckbeak will be executed. She doesn't strike me as the kind of person to think things through, but to make assumptions. She heard about Buckbeak's attack and immediately believed he wouldn't be found innocent. I also think Trelawney has a morbid fascination with death, and almost enjoys when it approaches... > 4. Why doesn't Trelawney recognize that she has made a prediciton > when she speaks about the servant of the Dark Lord? She doesn't know enough about Divination to know if even she has talent to be a Seer. I think she wings it quite a bit in her classes. I could be biased, though, because I don't like her and wouldn't want her as a professor. > 5. Ron sees Hermione in a different light since she slapped Draco, > dropped Divination class and now volunteers to retrieve the Cloak. > What is it about her actions that he finds most appealing? He's thrilled to see her breaking out a bit and not following every rule to a tee. Of course, he would have loved to slap Draco himself, so it's nice that a friend did it first. --jenny from ravenclaw******************************* From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Jun 25 18:52:33 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:52:33 -0000 Subject: CHAP. 17 SUMMARY: Cat, Rat, and Dog In-Reply-To: <9h71fg+ltmq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h819h+q80h@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21413 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > > 1. Why does Scabbers try to escape from Ron before the Trio even > leaves Hagrid's? Panic. He is terrified now, knowing that Sirius and Crookshanks (whether working together or separately) are after him. At this point, he probably knows that it is only a matter of time before he is caught and exposed, so he no longer feels the need to act as Ron's pet. > 2. JKR has said that Crookshanks is part Kneazle. Kneazles make > excellent pets if they take a liking to someone. Why has Crookshanks formed an apparent attachment to Sirius? He not only knows Sirius is not bad, but obviously somehow Sirius was able to communicate with him. As someone mentioned earlier, Crookshanks could probably also use some company, as Ron is always trying to kick him and Harry always shoos him away. > 3. What stopped Harry from killing Sirius? First of all, how would Harry have killed Sirius? Avada Kedavra was not known to Harry yet. Second, as angry as Harry is, he is not capable of murder. That's just not Harry. > 5. Should Remus have told Harry earlier in the school year about his true relationship with James? Do I think he should have confided in one of his students? Absolutely not. I think Lupin should have communicated more with Dumbledore. It is interesting to me that so many characters are afraid to tell Dumbledore things when he is a good listener, open-minded and rarely judgmental. --jenny from ravenclaw******************************** From blpurdom at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 19:06:18 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (Barbara Purdom) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CoS Stuff Message-ID: <20010625190618.5998.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21414 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote: > Really good questions! According to Dumbledore at the end of the > book, Lucius sets TMR's diary on Ginny specifically because she is > Arthur Weasley's daughter, and he is trying to overturn the Muggle > Protection Act (I'm not sure that's the name) that Arthur Weasley > had just submitted. Although you're right in saying how on earth > was Lucius to know when the Weasleys would be going to Diagon > Alley. He could have been planning to give it to her just about anytime, and decided when he saw the Weasleys in the bookstore that he had lucked out and decided there and then to slip it into Ginny's book. Perhaps he would have had Draco or even Dobby slip it in her belongings if that opportunity hadn't arisen. At least I thought that until I read: --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote: > As for how Lucius planted the diary, like you, that's another question that I've been pondering. [snip] My other random guess is that with the letters Dobby took from Harry, most likely in a letter Hermione writes, the date of the Hogwarts trip was mentioned. We don't see what happens to the letters that Dobby stole, so it could be possible that Lucius might have had them from Dobby. Seems highly unlikely, but its the only think I could think of. > > Cheers, > Paula > Queen of H/G Really good point, Paula! I didnt think about the stolen letters. Theres a reason why there are penalties for stealing mail. Another question could be, if Dobby testified against him, could Lucius be prosecuted for mail theft? Would this be a crime in the wizarding world? (And what else could Malfoy have learned about from the stolen letters that he shouldnt have known?) --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote: > The question is what are Lucius' real motives? Is it just to get > Arthur Weasley or is it something Harry-related? If Lucius' > intention was to get Ginny and her father in trouble, what does > Harry have to do with that? I suppose he reasoned that TMR would go > after Harry...[snip] Do you think Lucius talked to TMR via the > diary and Dobby witnessed this? I would in fact be very interested in knowing whether Lucius Malfoy had used the diary. Even more interesting would be to know what sort of relationship he had with Riddle and whether, like Harry, he had been able to enter into the diary and walk around the Hogwarts of yesteryear. OTOH, when Harry talks to TMR in the Chamber of Secrets, he identifies Ginny as the one who told him all about Harry. You'd think Lucius would have told him something if he'd used the diary. (On the other-other hand, maybe TMR wouldn't have told Harry this.) > The whole Dobby thing is still a mystery to me - I know that the > reason he came to warn Harry was because he is Harry Potter and he > rescued house elves from something really bad by 'defeating' > Voldemort. He did? Where did you read this? I must have missed it. Also, I always got the impression that Dobby was trying to prevent Harry from returning to Hogwarts on orders from Lucius Malfoy, but was pretending he was really looking after Harry's welfare (also part of Malfoy's plan). If Dobby was trying to prevent Harry from going to really protect Harry, I think it was because he hated the Malfoys and working for them, pure and simple. Frankly, what with the enslavement and all, were house elves really any better off after Voldemort fell than before? > The other thing is, and I was never able to figure this one out - > why does Lucius bring Dobby with him when he comes back to Hogwarts > at the end of the book? There seems to be no reason given for this. It just seemed to be one of those I'm-a-rich-guy-with-a-servant-waiting-on-me-hand-and-foot show-off things. Just Lucius and his ego out for a stroll... --Barb ===== Get Psyched out... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 20:12:25 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is Lucius Malfoy's informant? In-Reply-To: <9h7j82+soin@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010625201225.46405.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21415 --- hfakhro at nyc.rr.com wrote: The other thing is, and I > was never able to > figure this one out - why does Lucius bring Dobby > with him when he > comes back to Hogwarts at the end of the book? There > seems to be no > reason given for this. > > Actually it says in the book that Dobby was polishing Mr Malfoy's shoes. Obviously he was getting ready for something when he had to go to the school and he wasn't about to have Dobby stop getting him ready for whatever it was just for Dumbledore. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 20:16:27 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010625201627.47192.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21416 --- Sylph ~*~ wrote: > Hello Group, > I just recently joined, so I never saw the original > post for 'the missing > Weasley child'. I was wondering why you started > hypothesizing about a > missing child in the first place? So far the > theories all sound very > plausible, if only I knew why you were making them > in the first place... :) > > Sylph > > We are trying to justify Ron Weasley as a 7th son thus heir to "Fabulous Powers" :). Does that help? Danette > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com > > ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Mon Jun 25 20:17:48 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:17:48 -0000 Subject: enigmatic Bill .... the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <39.16b24940.2868c728@aol.com> Message-ID: <9h869c+8nqh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21417 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., BrownieH6 at a... wrote: > Don't you think, though, that if there was a missing Weasley > child, or is Molly was a step-mother, that Ron would have mentioned > something to Harry about it by now? I can't see Ron not knowing > about something like that, or not telling Harry at some point. That's two different questions. If Molly were his stepmother, which I don't believe, I agree it probably would have come up by now -- especially given the nature of "stepmother literature". On the other hand, it is quite possible that if Ron had a deceased brother he might not mention it simply because there might not be much of a story to it. I know that some people in the "dead Weasley" camp expect that it had something to do with VWI. I think it could easily have been more mundane -- like an infant dying shortly after childbirth, who might otherwise have been stillborn or the like. Stillbirths are more common than people tend to think and though infants are dying less frequently from birthing complications than in times past, it still does happen. Bill and Charlie would have likely been young when the posited missing Weasley died and the younger children might not have been made fully aware of it. As far as telling Harry, I suppose it might eventually come up, but it hasn't yet. I have a very good friend who is the oldest in his family, but his older-brother-to-have-been was stillborn. I didn't find this out about him until we knew each other for about 2? years and had we not started talking about the topic of genealogy, I might still not have known. For Ron, who would have been greatly removed from the missing brother, the importance of this sibling would be far less than if he were closer in age, like Percy.... ....Craig From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 20:25:33 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:25:33 -0000 Subject: Who is Lucius Malfoy's informant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9h86nt+amfr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21418 I think that the only reason Dobby is there at the end of the book is that he was polishing Mr. Malfoy's shoes or something (isn't he mentioned as carrying a towel of some sorts?) I don't know maybe I am making this up but for some reason I remember this and I am too lazy to go pick up my copy - LOL but I think Dobby wanted to finish his job so he wouldn't get into trouble and without realizing it followed Malfoy all the way to Hogwarts? Whatever... CHeck the book - LOL From Lindsay at stirton.net Mon Jun 25 20:38:56 2001 From: Lindsay at stirton.net (Lindsay Stirton) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:38:56 -0500 Subject: Seventh Son In-Reply-To: <9h7gh6+r4d0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21419 It is worth pointing out that there is no reason why Ginny has to be the last child. Molly could announce the happy news that she is expecting a seventh son/second daughter of a seventh son any day now. Pedantically yours, Lindsay Stirton From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 20:42:47 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CoS Stuff (Dobby the Mail Thief) In-Reply-To: <20010625190618.5998.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010625204247.78280.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21420 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote: > My other random guess is that > with > the letters Dobby took > from Harry, most likely in a letter Hermione writes, > the date of the Hogwarts trip was > mentioned. We don't see what happens to the letters > that Dobby stole, so it could be > possible that Lucius might have had them from Dobby. But don't we? Dobby shows the letters to Harry after inadvertantly revealing that he'd been stealing them, and Harry grabs them. I never thought of the mail theft as something that Lucius inspired, but rather something Dobby did on his own to make Harry think his friends and forgotten him. Thus, Lucius never even knew Dobby had the letters, much less got to read them and use the information inside them. Just my two Knuts on the subject. :) Andrea ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 20:46:53 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:46:53 -0000 Subject: FANFICTION (Please Read) (yes, ADMIN included ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9h87vt+bi33@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21421 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" wrote: > Penny forgot to get her post beta-read! > > She wrote: > > There are numerous other HP fanfic groups out > > there (even > > if you are boycotting fanfiction.net). Try HP_Fanfic at y... > > for example. > > > > It's actually HP_FanFiction at y... > > > Shays and Yael are doing wonderful things there - hope to see all of you who > want to read and/or write fanfiction! HP_FanFiction at yahoo.com is an e-mail address, not a URL. How can we get to the website? Haggridd From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 25 21:06:12 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (*~Jamieson Wolf~*) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:06:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FANFICTION (Please Read) (yes, ADMIN included) References: <3B3760AF.4F649FD6@swbell.net> Message-ID: <3B37A7C4.DA884E7C@sympatico.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 21422 Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote: > Hi everyone -- > > The Moderator Team has had another flurry of discussions this morning. > We are all in agreement that this group is not the place for Fanfic to > be uploaded. There are numerous other HP fanfic groups out there (even > if you are boycotting fanfiction.net). Try HP_Fanfic at yahoogroups.com > for example. If people are looking for a group to post fiction, you all can load fics to my group, Penny_Dredfule at yahoogroups.com Just thought I'd mention that... hugs Jamieson -- Excuse me, but I just have to explode, explode this body off me, wake-up tomorrow brand new, a little tired but brand new. (Pluto, by Bjork) how could i be so immature to think he would replace the missing elements in me? How extremely lazy of me! (Immature, by Bjork) From JamiDeise at aol.com Mon Jun 25 22:20:36 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:20:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: enigmatic Bill .... the missing Weasley child Message-ID: <10d.1d7083c.28691334@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21423 In a message dated 6/25/2001 4:25:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rcraigharman at hotmail.com writes: << On the other hand, it is quite possible that if Ron had a deceased brother he might not mention it simply because there might not be much of a story to it. I know that some people in the "dead Weasley" camp expect that it had something to do with VWI. I think it could easily have been more mundane -- like an infant dying shortly after childbirth, who might otherwise have been stillborn or the like. >> I doubt it, just because if there were something as significant as a deceased child, it would be pointless to have the baby die from natural causes ... unless it forwards the plot in some way, there's no reason for it. Jami From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 22:47:30 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: enigmatic Bill .... the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9h7t1e+prus@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010625224730.20664.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21424 > Actually no, I've very seldom discussed my brother who died when I > was 7 with anyone (you lot being cyber-friends don't count, sorry). > But I totally relate to Rons statement that he's "the 6th TO GO TO > HOGWARTS" (it's not the 6th bit that's odd, but why he didn't he > just say he was the sixth child?). Because he's talking about Hogwarts and goes on to explain to Harry that his older brothers have made their own marks on the school, all he gets is hand-me-downs, he's worried about being seen as just the kid brother, etc. He's not talking about his family and his place in it. (SS/PS, CHapter 6) I agree with MA that speculations about Molly being a step-mum and a missing Weasley are exactly that without some indication from JKR that there's something there. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Mon Jun 25 23:24:50 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:24:50 -0000 Subject: Dobby in CoS In-Reply-To: <20010625190618.5998.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9h8h82+b1s2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21425 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Purdom wrote: > He did? Where did you read this? I must have missed > it. Also, I always got the > impression that Dobby was trying to prevent Harry from > returning to Hogwarts on orders > from Lucius Malfoy, but was pretending he was really > looking after Harry's welfare (also > part of Malfoy's plan). > > If Dobby was trying to prevent Harry from going to > really protect Harry, I think it was > because he hated the Malfoys and working for them, > pure and simple. Frankly, what with > the enslavement and all, were house elves really any > better off after Voldemort fell than > before? Well I read it in CoS, "The Rogue Bludger": " 'Ah, if Harry Potter only knew!' Dobby groaned, more tears dripping onto his ragged pillowcase. 'If he knew what he means to us, to the lowly, the enslaved, us dregs of the magical world! Dobby remembers how it was when He Who Must Not Be Named was at the height of his powers, sir! We house-elves were treated like vermin, sir! Of course, Dobby is still treated like that, sir,' he admitted drying his face on the pillowcase. 'But mostly, sir, life has improved for my kind since you triumphed over He Who Must Not Be Named. Harry Potter survived, and the Dark Lord's power was broken, and it was a new dawn, sir, and Harry Potter shone like a beacon of hope for those of us who thought the dark days would never end, sir...' " I think Dobby is very selfless here, because although he is not one of the lucky ones whose life improved after the fall of Voldemort, he is thinking about the wellbeing of all his 'kind.' I never doubted for one minute that Dobby was acting of his own accord, and not on Lucius Malfoy's orders, and I don't think that he gave Lucius those letters from Hermione/Ron. He seems too sincere in his conversations with Harry, and he risks his life and his master's temper by warning Harry. (Even if you speculate that he does all this on Lucius' orders, note the scene in Dumbledore's office when he is trying to tell Harry that Lucius was responsible for the diary debacle - that is obviously *not* something that Lucius made him do.) Speaking of that scene, I find no mention of the shoe-polishing that other members have brought up as a reason for Dobby's being there. I have the British edition of that book; I wonder if this is a case of American vs. British editing. Perhaps the American editor added that scene so that it would make sense for Dobby to be there? As far as I can see, the British edition makes no mention of any reason for Dobby's being there. From pbnesbit at msn.com Mon Jun 25 23:35:11 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:35:11 -0000 Subject: URL for HP Fanfiction (Was Re: FANFICTION (Please Read) (yes, ADMIN included ) In-Reply-To: <9h87vt+bi33@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h8hrf+dl64@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21426 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > (Snip) > > Shays and Yael are doing wonderful things there - hope to see all of > you who > > want to read and/or write fanfiction! > > HP_FanFiction at y... is an e-mail address, not a URL. How can we > get to the website? > > Haggridd It's http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Fanfiction You can also go to Groups Home & type in HP_Fanfiction in the little search box. Come join us! It's a great site! Peace & Plenty, Parker From nosillaps13 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 23:48:17 2001 From: nosillaps13 at yahoo.com (Allison) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:48:17 -0000 Subject: Death Eater Similarities In-Reply-To: <004c01c0fc10$939ba020$fbc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9h8ik1+sork@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21427 > One thing that struck _me_ about the scene in the cemetery where Voldie > reunites with his "faithful" Death Eaters is that he apparently has no > problem calling them by name. Why bother with those stupid robes if you're > going to be using real names, out loud? I'm sure that Voldemort's easily > smart enough to come up with code names, which would also make it a lot > harder for a traitor to betray the whole lot of them in one fell swoop. In > addition, taking a new name is traditional upon religious or magical > initiation---converts to Christianity, Judaism or Islam, as well as outfits > like the Hare Krishnas, can often take new names for use within the group, > if not in the outside world. Part of DE initiation could well have been the > selection of a new name for the initiate, either by Voldemort himself (and, > note, he himself changed his name) or by the initiate, or by both of them > working together. Pettigrew became Wormtail, and the others could've done > likewise. I think V's calling Pettigrew "Wormtail" is his way of reminding Pettigrew of his failings. After all, he _was_ friends with several people who were most certainly not DEs. V is probably a master a psychological (hope I spelled that right) manipulation, and for someone like Pettigrew, who, IMO, probably already has an inferiority complex (his friends in school were smarter then him - so sayeth McGonagall - and most of the DEs are probably smarter then him too) and "Wormtail" is his way of hurting Pettigrew, fo aming him feel guilty, constantly. > For that matter, how did they get into their robes so quickly? I'm sure > that it would be a _tad_ suspicious for (spoiler) who destroys dangerous > beasties for the Ministry of Magic, if the cleaning staff found his Official > Death Eater Robe(tm) in his closet at work one day. Places like the > Malfoys' manor probably have enough hiding places for tons of DE gear, but > not everybody's got a manor to play with. My guess would be there's some sort of spell to alter regular robes into DE robes. But then, maybe most of the DEs _do_ have manors to play with. After all, they're Purebloods, and Purebloods have long been established in the wizarding community, so wealth and a Dark Mark may go hand in hand. > And, one final thought---is it a requirement that DEs must be able to > Apparate? It would certainly come in very handy, but I don't think Wormtail > could, otherwise he'd have done it when he set up Sirius Black. Maybe this > is a requirement only for the highest ranks of the organization--- as I've > said before, I do not think for a second that the people we saw in the > graveyard are anything like the total number of DEs. Voldemort would > probably only summon the highest-ranking members to him at such an occasion. Apparition, I would think, is probably a required skill on the DE application. But I think most of the DEs _have_ to be smarter then Pettigrew, or else how could V have gotten so strong? A leader needs strong followers. Pettigrew, I bet, got in b/c of his connection to James, and the Animagi skill was a big bonus. And to me, it sounds like most adult wizards can Apparate - it's just the easiest and most convenient way of travel. Allison From wings909 at aol.com Mon Jun 25 23:53:55 2001 From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:53:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dobby in CoS Message-ID: <78.16a9745d.28692913@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21428 In a message dated 6/25/01 7:35:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hfakhro at nyc.rr.com writes: > I think Dobby is very selfless here, because although he is not one > of the lucky ones whose life improved after the fall of Voldemort, he > I'm not too clear on what is meant by "acting on LM's orders" unless it is meant that Dobby is acting under LM's orders to go and try to save HP? I'm not too sure what LM could possibly have to gain by that. <> I never meant in my original statment that Dobby had given the letters to LM, sorry I guess my original post didn't come in too clear. I seem to think either Dobby was "tortured" (for a lack of a better description) to give LM the letters or that either LM found them on Dobby. That's the only reason I can think of as to how everyone managed to meet up at the right moment. Cheers, Paula "At that moment, there was a diversion in the form of a small, red-headed figure in a long nightdress, who appeared in the kitchen, gave a small squeal, and ran out again." The Chamber of Secrets [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princess_danika at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 00:48:14 2001 From: princess_danika at hotmail.com (danika saal) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:48:14 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More about Lucius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21429 >From: browneyes1420 at aol.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] More about Lucius >Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:00:24 EDT > >In a message dated 6/20/01 8:04:24 PM Central Daylight Time, >pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it writes: > > > > And Draco is, IMO, just a mere shadow of his father. At least, I > > can't imagine Lucius at the age of 13 squealing "He's killed me, he's > > killed me", when injured by a Hippogriff. Draco is just copying what oe > > he sees his father doing, and not giving a very convincing > > kperformance. That's why I don't agree with those speaking of Lucius > > as a child- abuser: He just wanted a son he could be proud of and has > > got only Draco ( who seems to be the only son)---serves him right!!!, > > the put-down Draco gets in the shop at Knockturn Alley won't be > > neither the first nor the last. > > > > > >I Know I'm late responding to this but I have a problem with Draco being >evil >through and through. He strikes me as the type who has been mislead. I >think >he IS the heir of Slytherin and Harry is the heir of Gryffindor. I think >Draco and Harry will become friends, and Draco will help Harry and Hermi >defeat Voldi. Ron strikes me as a pettigrew . Please I do not mean to >insult >all Ron lovers. >Joe > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > That actually sounds like a feasible idea. But I still bleive that Ron and Harry's relationship is too strong to be upset like that. But, on the other hand, Sirius obviously thought that Wormtail was trustworthy enough to be the potter's secret keeper..... Danika _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 01:36:25 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:36:25 -0000 Subject: enigmatic Bill .... the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <10d.1d7083c.28691334@aol.com> Message-ID: <9h8oup+f4a7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21430 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JamiDeise at a... wrote: > I doubt it, just because if there were something as significant as > a deceased child, it would be pointless to have the baby die from > natural causes ... unless it forwards the plot in some way, there's > no reason for it. I don't buy that JKR couldn't simply do this to hide Ron's seership. I think many adult readers would immediately have said "aha, he's the seventh son, that makes him a seer", if she were to made his place explicit. By having a deceased extra child, you hide Ron's order from the reader and by having the child die *naturally*, you create plausible reasons for Ron to have never been told.... ....Craig From kabuki_darling at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 01:54:55 2001 From: kabuki_darling at hotmail.com (Sylph ~*~) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:54:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] the missing Weasley child Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21431 was said: We are trying to justify Ron Weasley as a 7th son thus >heir to "Fabulous Powers" :). Does that help? > >Danette > > I'm still confused-are you doing it for fun, or was there something in the books that hinted Ron as a seventh son? >_________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > >===== >"Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have >been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail >http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jun 26 02:07:11 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:07:11 -0000 Subject: the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9h8qof+9mvh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21432 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sylph ~*~" wrote: > was said: > We are trying to justify Ron Weasley as a 7th son thus > >heir to "Fabulous Powers" :). Does that help? > > > >Danette > > > > I'm still confused-are you doing it for fun, or was there something in the > books that hinted Ron as a seventh son? Hi. This is just speculation. We do alot of it here. Sometimes it's fun to discuss ideas about the books and read what other people think. My post about Molly as a step-mother was purely speculative. In fact I made it up while I was writing my reply because it was something I never saw speculated before. lol in fact, I could speculate that Molly and Arthur were going through are rather rough time in their marriage between Charlie and Percy. Perhaps they were separated, with her and the boys living with her mum. Maybe something happened that made them both realize that they could work through their problems and they reconciled. Of course, there is nothing in the books to support this hypothesis except for the age gap between Charlie and Percy. Speculation is endless and until Rowling definitely writes something to support or contradict the speculation, I think it's fair to speculate. (Just make sure you indicate that something is a speculation) ;-)Milz From claudiambr2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 02:11:31 2001 From: claudiambr2001 at yahoo.com (claudiambr2001 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:11:31 -0000 Subject: COS Question... Message-ID: <9h8r0j+6cfe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21433 I've only read the Brazilian version of the Books But in the end off Cos Lucios and Dobby desapear while in the castle dobby with a *POP* and Malfoy with a "swish of his cloak" but how could They have done it if you can't aparate or disaparate in Hogwarts as Hermione likes to remind us... I would like to know if this is a flaw in the Brazilian version or is it present in others editions?and What could it Mean? Sorry If spelled things wrong... CLaudiaMBR From claudiambr2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 02:19:23 2001 From: claudiambr2001 at yahoo.com (claudiambr2001 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:19:23 -0000 Subject: Ages in the books,... Message-ID: <9h8rfb+4hmc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21434 We know that : McGonagall is around 70 Dumbledore is around 150 Snape is 36 Percy is 19 But what are Bill and Charlies ages or off the other characters execpt (s/p?) hagrid and those still in Hogwarts... Does anyone knows their age???? ClaudiaMBR From BrownieH6 at aol.com Tue Jun 26 02:24:27 2001 From: BrownieH6 at aol.com (BrownieH6 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:24:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the missing Weasley child Message-ID: <37.1703d42b.28694c5b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21435 In a message dated 6/25/01 10:12:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, absinthe at mad.scientist.com writes: > ...lol in fact, I could speculate that Molly > and Arthur were going through are rather rough time in their marriage > between Charlie and Percy. Perhaps they were separated, with her and > the boys living with her mum. > > *I know this is a bit OT, but is divorce ever mentioned in the books? I mean, I'm > assuming that wizards can get divorced, but I don't think it's ever > mentioned...in our world, divorce is very common, and perhaps it isn't in > the Wizarding world. That could support the theory of MOlly and Arthur > being separated but not divorced...they could have just been > *cooling-off*...then got back together and had Percy...I've always wondered > why there was such a big gap. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From BrownieH6 at aol.com Tue Jun 26 02:33:48 2001 From: BrownieH6 at aol.com (BrownieH6 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:33:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ages in the books,... Message-ID: <21.d9114c4.28694e8c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21436 In a message dated 6/25/01 10:25:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, claudiambr2001 at yahoo.com writes: > But what are Bill and Charlies ages or off the other characters execpt > (s/p?) hagrid and those still in Hogwarts... > > Does anyone knows their age???? > Well, we can make assumtions using the ages we know... If Dumbledore is 150 in book 4, we can say he's around that in book two. We know that the CoS was first opened fifty years before book 2, when Tom Riddle was fifteen. So then Dumbledre was around 100 when Tom Riddle/Voldemort was 15. So they are 85 years apart. So right now, Voldemort is around 65. We know that Hagrid was expelled in his third year, when Tom was in his fifth. Therefore, Hagrid is 63. As to the ages of Bill and Charlie, I've no idea. I'd assume in their early 30's/late 20's, but I could be wrong. Marie Antoinette [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jun 26 02:38:10 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:38:10 -0000 Subject: Ages in the books,... In-Reply-To: <9h8rfb+4hmc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h8sii+i0he@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21437 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., claudiambr2001 at y... wrote: > We know that : > > McGonagall is around 70 > Dumbledore is around 150 > Snape is 36 > Percy is 19 > But what are Bill and Charlies ages or off the other characters execpt > (s/p?) hagrid and those still in Hogwarts... > > Does anyone knows their age???? > > ClaudiaMBR Rowling has never come straight out and written exactly how old Bill and Charlie are. I figure Bill is at least one or two years older than Charlie. Charlie can be anywhere from 6 years older than Percy to a mere 4 years older than Percy. The 6 year gap comes from the date of the last time the Gryffindor Quidditch Team won the Quidditch Cup (7 years before CoS). Charlie was Captain of that team. IF Charlie won that cup in his seventh year, that would make him about 6 years older than Percy. However, I have a feeling Charlie didn't play Quidditch in his final year or two or three of Hogwarts and spent that time gearing up for his dragon studies; therefore, Oliver Wood's disgust at Charlie running off to chase dragons rather than playing Quidditch for England. (IIRC, in PS/SS, Ron states that Charlie is *studying* dragons in Romania, implying to me, that Charlie is in some kind of post-Hogwarts study program similar to graduate school in the US.) That would close the age gap between Charlie and Percy to anywhere between 3-5 years and that would also close the age gap between Bill and Percy. I think most people here agreed that Bill and Charlie are more or less in their mid-20s. Steve's web site the HP Lexicon has a listing of the students and their respective years. The link is on this list's home page. Milz From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Tue Jun 26 02:44:53 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:44:53 -0000 Subject: COS Question... In-Reply-To: <9h8r0j+6cfe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h8sv5+7ca6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21438 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., claudiambr2001 at y... wrote: > > I've only read the Brazilian version of the Books > But in the end off Cos Lucios and Dobby desapear while in the castle > dobby with a *POP* and Malfoy with a "swish of his cloak" but how > could They have done it if you can't aparate or disaparate in > Hogwarts as Hermione likes to remind us... > > I would like to know if this is a flaw in the Brazilian version or is > it present in others editions?and What could it Mean? > > Sorry If spelled things wrong... > > CLaudiaMBR In the US edition, Dobby DOES disappear (with a "crack"). Fred or George says earlier in the book that house elves have their own brand of magic. Maybe this is what enables Dobby to apparate and dissapparate on Hogwarts grounds. Lucius Malfoy in the US edition DOESN'T leave Hogwarts with a "swish of his cloak". If I recall correctly, the last time he's mentioned in CoS, he's lying at the bottom of the stairs glaring at Harry and Dobby. I assume he storms out of the castle. Milz From claudiambr2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 02:57:53 2001 From: claudiambr2001 at yahoo.com (claudiambr2001 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:57:53 -0000 Subject: COS Question... In-Reply-To: <9h8sv5+7ca6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h8tnh+au40@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21439 > In the US edition, Dobby DOES disappear (with a "crack"). Fred or > George says earlier in the book that house elves have their own brand > of magic. Maybe this is what enables Dobby to apparate and > dissapparate on Hogwarts grounds. > > Lucius Malfoy in the US edition DOESN'T leave Hogwarts with a "swish > of his cloak". If I recall correctly, the last time he's mentioned in > CoS, he's lying at the bottom of the stairs glaring at Harry and > Dobby. I assume he storms out of the castle. > > Milz thanks that cleared some off my doubts the editors here musthave aded the scene when they traslated to give it more "glamour" or something like that.... Thanks Again ClaudiaMBR From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 26 02:41:13 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:41:13 -0000 Subject: COS Question... In-Reply-To: <9h8r0j+6cfe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h8so9+2nm9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21440 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., claudiambr2001 at y... wrote: > > I've only read the Brazilian version of the Books > But in the end off Cos Lucios and Dobby desapear while in the castle > dobby with a *POP* and Malfoy with a "swish of his cloak" but how > could They have done it if you can't aparate or disaparate in > Hogwarts as Hermione likes to remind us... > > I would like to know if this is a flaw in the Brazilian version or is > it present in others editions?and What could it Mean? > House-elves can perform a magic more powerful than humans, including apparation to and from locations like Hogwarts. In the American edition, LM, after "a last, incensed stare" at Harry and Dobby, "swung his cloak around him and hurried out of sight." Nothing magical in his departure. - CMC From toomanyideas at aol.com Tue Jun 26 03:23:58 2001 From: toomanyideas at aol.com (toomanyideas at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:23:58 -0000 Subject: Harry never gets anyone presents In-Reply-To: <9g7roo+ojs6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h8v8e+ks8l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21441 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > In the books Harry always gets christmas presents from Ron Hermione, > rons family and Hagrid but it never mentions him giving any presents, > does it? He does buy socks for Dobby, though.. From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Tue Jun 26 03:47:30 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:47:30 -0000 Subject: Dobby in CoS In-Reply-To: <78.16a9745d.28692913@aol.com> Message-ID: <9h90ki+pv4u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21442 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote: > I'm not too clear on what is meant by "acting on LM's orders" unless it is > meant that Dobby is acting under LM's orders to go and try to save HP? I'm > not too sure what LM could possibly have to gain by that. Yes, sorry I wasn't too clear about what I meant. I was arguing against the point made by another listmember that Dobby may have been going to Harry not to protect him per se, but under LM's orders as part of a plan by LM. I presume this is the same conclusion that Harry and Ron come to at the beginning of CoS when they are speculating about why Dobby came to Harry (only they suspected Draco). The other point that was made was that Dobby, if he was going to Harry to protect him, was doing it only because he hated the Malfoys. I was arguing that IMHO (of course I could be wrong) Dobby is sincerely protecting Harry because he wants to preserve the relative stability/happiness that house elves have had ever since the fall of Voldemort. > I never meant in my original statment that Dobby had given the letters to LM, > sorry I guess my original post didn't come in too clear. I seem to think > either Dobby was "tortured" (for a lack of a better description) to give LM > the letters or that either LM found them on Dobby. That's the only reason I > can think of as to how everyone managed to meet up at the right moment. No I'm sorry! Yes of course that is plausible. I have to admit that I hadn't really thought about why LM and the Weasleys were in Diagon Alley on the same day, but this theory probably makes the most sense. After all, I don't think Dobby gave Harry those letters in the end. Yes, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that Lucius took them from Dobby. Sorry about the confusion! From find_sam at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 03:52:21 2001 From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:52:21 -0000 Subject: Voldemort, the Scheming Villain In-Reply-To: <004c01c0fc10$939ba020$fbc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9h90tl+taoe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21443 Eric Oppen wrote: > One thing that struck _me_ about the scene in the cemetery where Voldie reunites with his "faithful" Death Eaters is that he apparently has no problem calling them by name. Why bother with those stupid robes if you're going to be using real names, out loud? I'm sure that Voldemort's easily smart enough to come up with code names, which would also make it a lot harder for a traitor to betray the whole lot of them in one fell swoop. Voldemort makes his Death Eaters wear the robes, IMO, because he is a Scheming Villain. His ultimate goal is to dominate the wizarding world, yes, but he wants everything to be 'perfect' as he does so. His creepy followers *must* wear spooky black robes. Having evil followers who wear their usual apparel to meetings is hardly the proper way to go about things, is it? Especially when you're a Scheming Villain. This idea of Voldemort as the Scheming Villain is especially important in GoF. One of the regularly discussed topics on this list is: Why did Voldemort have to wait until the Last Task until he got Harry to Portkey over to him; why didn't Moody just make Harry's toothbrush a Portkey? The answer, I believe, is that Voldemort is a Scheming Villain. He wants to succeed, but he wants to scheme, too. He's so sadistic that there's no fun in it for him if he's not scheming. It's hardly going to look impressive to his followers if he killed Harry Potter by transfiguring his toothbrush. OTOH, coming back to power and killing Harry Potter under the noses of the whole wizarding community... *that's* impressive. Of course, it's also a great device on which JKR can construct the canon. I suppose in a way we're all scheming readers - GoF would hardly be such a great book if Moody had turned Harry's *toothbrush* into a Portkey. PoA would have sucked if Sirius had killed 'Scabbers' on his first visit to Hogwarts. And so on. > Sam From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 04:04:40 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010626040440.43803.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21444 --- Sylph ~*~ wrote: > was said: > We are trying to justify Ron Weasley as a 7th son > thus > >heir to "Fabulous Powers" :). Does that help? > > > >Danette > > > > I'm still confused-are you doing it for fun, or was > there something in the > books that hinted Ron as a seventh son? > You mean I'm going to have to dig into the archives? They hate me, Okay let me see if I can get you on the right track. msg # 21149 : DISCUSSION - PoA Ch 15: The Quidditch Final Here is the question that started the whole thread. Specifically it was question 5. That transmuted into... msg # 21178 : Why Ron Isn't a Seer Where people went back and forth about how Ron could or couldn't have "The Sight" That became.... msg # 21331 : enigmatic Bill,"that book", Trelawney, the missing Weasley child Where we started wrangling the idea of a missing Weasley to make Ron a seventh son. There are probably a couple more hiding in there but this should be enough to bring you up to speed (plus I don't feel like fighting with the archives anymore :D ). All these posts have followup which are easy to find at the bottom of the message (so you don't have to fight the archives too much ;D ). Hope that clears up the confusion for you. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jun 26 04:05:13 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:05:13 -0000 Subject: Weasleys In-Reply-To: <3B341B91.64C96221@texas.net> Message-ID: <9h91lp+10ero@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21445 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > JenniferABacker at c... wrote: > > > You know that does make some sense. Also it ties into someone's theory > > about Ron having another brother. Some people Ron is a seer and it'd > > make more sense if he's the seventh son. Something about seventh sons > > having magical > > powers. Ah I don't remember ;x > > It was me. I'm revealing my age, but in keeping with the spirit of > providing support when we invoke Archivus Referendum, here ya go: > > 1809 - I speculate that Ron might have had a missing brother, which > would make him a seventh son. > 1817 - discusses the attributes of seventh sons of seventh sons in a > couple of cultures. > 1826 - says that a power of a 7/7 born under a caul was divination (!) > > And on an even older thread called "the gap in the Weasley family". > Other messages in this thread involve establishing the gap via > intricate, detailed, mind-numbing comparisons of references of dates of > winning Quidditch cups and the like. Look them up if you want. I dozed > off. > > 1666 - Original question from Heather, noticing the gap. > 1694 - Me, suggesting that there might have been other Weasleys that > fell to Voldemort > 1714 - Penny's opinion on the gap and other possible causes > 1720 - complaint that if there were others, they'd be mentioned (Vicki) > 1725 - why other sibling(s) might not be mentioned (sister mary lunatic) > > 1728 - why other sibling(s) are not mentioned (me) > > I haven't been following the latest Weasley family discussions, but I > also remember somewhere postulating that Molly didn't look at the clock > when she was worried about the family at the Cup, because she was afraid > to, because she'd seen the worst on it before. > > As for Apparating, wasn't Ginny with Molly? Ginny can't Apparate, and > Molly can't "carry" her when *she* does, so unless there was someone > close by and trustworthy to guard Ginny--and I can't imagine, if the > Dark Mark were seen and danger was in the air, that Molly would leave > Ginny alone--Molly *had* to stay at the Burrow. > > --Amanda, the tired, the life-less, the anal > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Fun. It would be interesting if Ron were 7th son of 7th son...but it seems to me that if he were in fact a seer SOMEthing would have happened in Divination class, where after all, the Professor DID have a real live true prediction about Wormtail (gosh that is so close to Worm Tongue) returning to Voldemort...... I think the gap might be due to fear/depression...that's when people don't have sex, because they don't feel good about themselves....or perhaps Arthur was gone....he might have been on a secret mission for Dumbledore or for the Order of the Phoenix..or Arthur and Molly might have been on the outs...or it might have been about money... Maybe one or two of us should take on the role of Molly and Arthur for this discussion (helpful in putting ourselves into their mind sets) and answer questions... Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jun 26 04:15:27 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:15:27 -0000 Subject: CHAP. 17 SUMMARY: Cat, Rat, and Dog/Richard III In-Reply-To: <9h71fg+ltmq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h928v+o0a3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21446 Has anyone else noticed the similarity to the satiric jingle circulated in England under the reign of (and attacking) Richard III The Cat, the Rat, and Lovell (our Dog) ruleth all England under a Hog? The Cat, Rat, and Lovell were advisors to Richard III..the hog Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Jun 26 04:19:16 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:19:16 -0000 Subject: CoS Stuff (Dobby the Mail Thief)/Dobby testifying In-Reply-To: <20010625204247.78280.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9h92g4+9f1f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21447 I do NOT think it would work -- dobby testifying.. It is quite clear that most wizards/witches see house elves as inferior and unreliable and that their testimony would not be seen as reliable.. From neilward at dircon.co.uk Tue Jun 26 05:04:38 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:04:38 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FANFICTION (Please Read) (yes, ADMIN included ) References: <9h87vt+bi33@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00c201c0fdfd$808f44c0$823470c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 21448 Haggridd said: > HP_FanFiction at yahoo.com is an e-mail address, not a URL. How can we get to the website? The URL is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_FanFiction I think this was Penny and Heidi's impromptu 'lateral thinking' competition for this week. Well done all those who made it to the site without the aid of a portkey! Neil Moderator Team ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia Mechanimagus Moderator "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything to do with this club: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm From catlady at wicca.net Tue Jun 26 05:31:00 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:31:00 -0700 Subject: Bill Weasley - PoA Chapter Questions - More Little Weasleys Message-ID: <3B381E14.D18FA806@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21449 Caitlin MacCallum wrote: > In response to the alphebetical Weasley names, > wouldn't Bill actually be William? I always wonder if 'Bill' is short for Bilius, after Ron's uncle (who was probably also Bill's uncle) who died from seeing a Grim. Milz wrote: > (IIRC, in PS/SS, Ron states that Charlie is > *studying* dragons in Romania, implying to me, > that Charlie is in some kind of post-Hogwarts > study program similar to graduate school in the US.) 'Studying' is a great word, as it can mean grad school or apprenticeship or being the lead researcher. What we've seen of Charlie and dragons looks to me a lot more like wrangling dragons than studying them, but FABULOUS BEASTS says something about the wizard folk gathered specimens of all 16 species of dragons in the world and put them together in a Muggle-proof are of Rumania in order to study them. I suspect it's not a very academic kind of study, more trying out different techniques of dragon husbandry to see which are the least dangerous ... Zarleycat wrote: > 3. Trelawney questions Harry's interpretation of > his imaginary vision of the hippogriff in the > crystal ball. Is this because she knows he's > faking it or because she is actually making a > prediciton herself about the outcome of the appeal? IMHO she doesn't know that Harry is faking and happily believes that he is reporting a real vision. She 'knows' that if only Harry were better at seeing the future, he would see the execution, because 'everyone knows' that a Beast brought up on charges before the committee is always executed: only Hagrid and the children are naive enough to believe in the judicial process. It's like predicting that the sun will rise tomorrow: no Divination is needed. > 4. Why doesn't Trelawney recognize that she has > made a prediciton when she speaks about the servant > of the Dark Lord? Her mind was in a fugue state while her body/voice were being possessed (new question: was she possessed by her own dissociated pre-cog ability, or by some other being as in "channelling"?) so she has amnesia about it. > 5. Ron sees Hermione in a different light since > she slapped Draco, dropped Divination class and now > volunteers to retrieve the Cloak. What is it about > her actions that he finds most appealing? Personally, I don't read it as JKR making a feminist point about assertive girls being attractive. I read it that what most bugged Ron about Hermione was that she was a goody-goody, who obeyed rules and respected teachers, and here she is most dramatically BREAKING rules and dissing the Divination teacher. > 4. Why is there a magnificent bed in the Shrieking > Shack, when everything else in the building is stained > and broken? "On a magnificent four-poster bed with dusty hangings lay Crookshanks," It never occurred to me that there weren't chunks bitten out of the formerly magnificent four-poster. If there aren't,, someone must have repaired it with as many repetitions as needed of the Reparo! Charm (IIRC, that's the one Arthur used on Harry's glasses). Someone who, in the intervening years, found that the Shrieking Shack was not actually haunted and would therefore be a good hiding place, may have found the secret passageway which would make it an even better hiding place, and had a need for a hidden bed. Sounds like someone having romantic trysts. *snicker* Maybe dear Severus, who already knew about the secret passage, and that it wasn't really haunted... Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: > First of all, how would Harry have killed Sirius? > Avada Kedavra was not known to Harry yet. Avada Kedavra is not the only way to kill someone. Levitation can do it -- remember in Book 1, when Ron cast Wingardium Leviosa and the troll's own club hit it on the head? That would have killed someone with a less hard head than a troll's. Susan wrote: > The Cat, the Rat, and Lovell (our Dog) > ruleth all England under a Hog? I read that verse in Josephine Tey's THE DAUGHTER OF TIME. IIRC, she said the Cat and the Rat were Sir William Catesby and Sir Richard Ratcliffe. There was a Virginian girl named Catesby in my college dorm who claimed to be descended from that Sir William Catesby. Lindsay Stirton wrote: > Molly could announce the happy news that she is > expecting a seventh son/second daughter of a seventh > son any day now. Not if she is through menopause, which would relate to other questions such as how old is Molly and in what age range do witches (living longer and aging slower than Muggle women) have menopause? -- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From joym999 at aol.com Tue Jun 26 06:08:16 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:08:16 -0000 Subject: musings about things, mostly PoA Chapter 17 Message-ID: <9h98sg+891g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21450 I think that the reason many of us like the HP books (aside, of course, from wanting to be wizards or witches and go to Hogwarts, or just wanting the world to be a more magical place) is because of JKR's strong sense of social justice, and the powerful yet never preachy, often metaphorical, treatment of some important political and moral issues. Some of those issues are more obvious than others. There are obvious parallels between racial prejudice and the prejudice of some pureblood wizards against those with muggle blood. There are some issues which are not metaphorical at all; such as the ineptitude of bureaucracies and bureaucrats and the disdain that the rich often have for the poor. Then there is the whole house elf mistreatment issue, which may be a metaphor for how certain groups of humans have been known to treat other groups of humans, or it may be a metaphor for how humans treat certain species of animals (whales?), or it may be something else entirely. But that's not what I want to talk about. There is another issue which I believe that JKR treats metaphorically in PoA. In her summary of Chapter 17, Marianne asks "What stopped Harry killing Sirius?" I believe that Harry does not kill Sirius, and later does not allow Sirius and Remus to kill Peter Pettigrew, because he realizes the moral implications of doing so. I think that this whole chapter is a metaphorical argument against the death penalty. I am basing this conclusion not only on the text, but also on the fact that we know that JKR's political leanings are to the left and that she once worked for Amnesty International, an organization which is adamantly and actively opposed to the death penalty. Harry is, at one point, consumed with anger and convinced that he wants to kill Sirius Black. However, when the opportunity is presented to him, something prevents him. He "knows" that Sirius Black killed his parents, is the right-hand man of a mass murderer, and is the cause of much of the misery and pain he has experienced in his young life. Yet he pauses, perhaps wondering if he has the right to kill Sirius, perhaps thinking that maybe it is wrong to kill no matter what Sirius has done, or even that maybe there is no way of knowing for sure that Sirius is guilty. Then again, maybe Harry pauses because he realizes that he's a 13-year old wizard who doesn't know enough magic to actually kill anyone. Anyway, he pauses long enough for Crookshanks to get in the way. This ups the ante. Now, in order to kill Sirius Black, Harry will also have to kill an innocent cat who has befriended Sirius, which will in turn cause pain to his close friend Hermione, reminding us (IMHO) that if you kill one person, you will also injure anyone who cares for him or her. And of course it turns out that Sirius Black is not guilty at all, reminding us that just because everyone believes something doesn't make it the truth. We find out who is really responsible for James and Lily's deaths, who is really Voldemort's right-hand man. But Harry stops Sirius and Remus from killing Wormtail, despite the fact that he admits his guilt and clearly (again, my opinion) deserves to die. There are several reasons why people are opposed to the death penalty. (There are also a lot of reasons why people support the death penalty, which I won't recount here, not because I am biased but because I am trying to explain only what I think it is that JKR is trying to say.) Some people feel that any killing is wrong. Others feel that justice systems do not always reach the correct conclusions about guilt and innocence, therefore one can never know for sure if the person executed is truly guilty. Just before Timothy McVeigh's execution, Helen Prejean (the nun who wrote the book "Dead Man Walking," who was played by Susan Sarandon in the movie) said (not her exact words) "The question is not whether Timothy McVeigh deserves to die but who deserves to kill him." This is my opinion on the issue, in case anyone cares. I am convinced that there are times when killing is necessary, and there is no doubt in my mind that there are people (too many, unfortunately) without whom the world would be a much better place. I'm just not convinced that I, or anyone else (especially a clearly prejudiced court system) has the right to make that decision. I also think that anyone who kills suffers greatly, even if they kill someone who deserves to die and/or if the killing is state-sponsored. OK, back to HP. I think that Harry goes through some of the same thought processes I have just recounted. I think he gains a tremendous amount of maturity and knowledge in this process, and this is why I think that this chapter is the most powerful and moving in what is my favorite HP book so far. I don't think that Harry necessarily becomes convinced that killing is always wrong ? I think that probably Harry will, eventually, kill Voldemort. (And good riddance to him, IMHO.) He just realizes that the best decisions are not made in anger, and that there are tremendous moral consequences to killing someone, whether or not they deserve to die. He decides that although Peter Pettigrew probably deserves to die, Remus and Sirius do not deserve to have to kill him. Well, anyway, that's my point ? that JKR is arguing against the death penalty in this chapter. I hope my analysis is coherent. --Joywitch From princess_danika at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 06:40:51 2001 From: princess_danika at hotmail.com (danika saal) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:40:51 +1000 Subject: The Fate of Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21451 Since everyone is analysing the past, I would like, for my first 'BIG' post, to ask about people's predictions of the future. What do we think the fate of Hogwarts will be? What role will this fabulous castle play in the drama's and dangers to follow? DO you think it is feasible that people will take refuge at Hogwarts when He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named starts to run amuck? That those who agree with Dumbldore, and the actions that he proposed that night in Madam Pomfrey's room, will find shelter in the castle, away from the Dementors and Death Eaters? Also, do you think that the Giants will become allied with the Ministry of Magic? Or just with Dumbledore and Hogwarts? After the stupid reaction of Fudge when told of the return of You-Know-Who, do you think it likely that the giants, lead by Hagrid will turn back to Him? I think that Dumbledore will play a huge part in bringing the community to safety, and that maybe it will be a collaboration between him and the teachers, and even Harry, that will bring You-Know-Who down once and for all. With all the protection in store at Hogwarts already it would be easy to make it into a strong hold for those who need protection. What does everyone else think? Danika 'Longbottom' (Neville's Cousin, twice removed) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From professorpotter at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 06:48:32 2001 From: professorpotter at hotmail.com (Danika Nicole) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:48:32 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort, the Scheming Villain Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21452 >From: find_sam at hotmail.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort, the Scheming Villain >Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:52:21 -0000 > >Eric Oppen wrote: > > One thing that struck _me_ about the scene in the cemetery where >Voldie reunites with his "faithful" Death Eaters is that he >apparently has no problem calling them by name. Why bother with >those stupid robes if you're going to be using real names, out loud? >I'm sure that Voldemort's easily smart enough to come up with code >names, which would also make it a lot harder for a traitor to betray >the whole lot of them in one fell swoop. > >Voldemort makes his Death Eaters wear the robes, IMO, because he is a >Scheming Villain. His ultimate goal is to dominate the wizarding >world, yes, but he wants everything to be 'perfect' as he does so. >His creepy followers *must* wear spooky black robes. Having evil >followers who wear their usual apparel to meetings is hardly the >proper way to go about things, is it? Especially when you're a >Scheming Villain. > >This idea of Voldemort as the Scheming Villain is especially >important in GoF. One of the regularly discussed topics on this list >is: Why did Voldemort have to wait until the Last Task until he got >Harry to Portkey over to him; why didn't Moody just make Harry's >toothbrush a Portkey? > >The answer, I believe, is that Voldemort is a Scheming Villain. He >wants to succeed, but he wants to scheme, too. He's so sadistic that >there's no fun in it for him if he's not scheming. It's hardly going >to look impressive to his followers if he killed Harry Potter by >transfiguring his toothbrush. OTOH, coming back to power and killing >Harry Potter under the noses of the whole wizarding community... >*that's* impressive. > >Of course, it's also a great device on which JKR can construct the >canon. I suppose in a way we're all scheming readers - GoF would >hardly be such a great book if Moody had turned Harry's *toothbrush* >into a Portkey. PoA would have sucked if Sirius had killed 'Scabbers' >on his first visit to Hogwarts. And so on. > > > Sam > I very dearly agree with you. It all comes down to suspense. If there was non and Harry was transfigured by a roving toothbrush , it just wouldnt be the same. I agree 100%. Danika Longbottom _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Jun 26 06:55:14 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:55:14 -0000 Subject: Ron's subconscious,heretical question about time lines,Molly's age Message-ID: <9h9bki+2saq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21453 Please don't send me howlers for what I'm going to say now- I know that many of us have become really enthusiastic about the Ron-the- unconscious-seer theory. IMHO, Ron is nothing less than a seer, he's just a person with a very good intuition. Let me explain: To me, Hermione and, to a lesser degree, Harry, are persons who do a lot of analyzing, logical thinking, they are brainy and use only their brains to work things out. Ron, OTOH, is not this kind of person. You know where you can see that best? At the beginning of GoF, when Harry pictures his friends' reactions to his scar hurting angain. Ron is the more impulsive of the trio, the one who doesn't think before he reacts (think of how many times he has to be pulled back by his "logical" friends when he wants to get at Draco). Therefore, IMHO, Ron being the more intuitive (hope that word's right, but you'll understand anyway) kind of person, the thing he says about Harry's "being stabbed in the back by someone whom he thought of as a friend", to me simply reveals that unconsciously, he is well aware of his jealousy and that he can't go on like this forever. In CoS, when somebody mentions for the first time that the monster killed somebody the last time it was set free, Ron says "Maybe it killed Moaning Myrtle, that would have done everybody a favour". He doesn't *know* and he doesn't *see*, things are just kind of "coming up". Sorry to question authorities, but I just have to say something about time-lines (I already did so in an other msg): To me, it doesn't make much sense establishing *absolute* time-lines with exact dates. The maximum we can do is working out *relative* time-lines. The motive for my somewhat heretical question is that it was stated that "we know Dumbledore's age is about 150". How do we know? Maybe I've missed some detail, but the only *date* we know is the defeat of Grindelwald in 1945, the rest is all relative stuff: D's still having auburn hair and being transfiguration teacher 50 years before CoS (which should be 1942, according to NHN's Deathday party)etc.etc. We know that Lucius was at Hogwarts between TMR and the Marauders, we know that the Riddles were killed 50 years before GoF, and so on and so on. Which brings me to Molly's age: Someone mentioned she had to be older than she seems to be, because when coming to Hogwarts for the Triwizard final, she remembers that at her time there was a gamekeeper called Ogg. This is only true if we suppose that Hagrid was made gamekeeper at the age of 13, immediately after being expelled. BUT: Who choses the gamekeeper? The Headmaster. And Dumbledore wasn't Headmaster at that time, we don't even know when he took over.I imagine that Hagrid was expelled and, considering what he was accused of, he wasn't allowed to enter the school grounds for quite a long time. Later, when dumbledore became Headmaster and Ogg retired, he called Hagrid. (Wouldn't somebody like to write some piece of fanfic about Hagrid's years as an outcast?) This takes about 20 years off Molly's age. OK, I'm waiting for the howlers! Susanna From professorpotter at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 07:05:11 2001 From: professorpotter at hotmail.com (Danika Nicole) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:05:11 +1000 Subject: Mrs Figg Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21454 I just had a look at the Lexion site, and there is a mistake in the list of 'Muggles' in the HP books. In case no one here noticed, Mrs Figg, the lady who in PS babysits Harry on Dudleys birthdays, etc, and has loads of smelly cats, is in fact not a muggle, but a witch. At the end of GOF Dumbledore instructs Sirius to contact the 'Old' crowd and this includes one "Arabella Figg". Perhaps she was the reason it was safe for Harry to go home each summer, cause there was a witch always close by......? Danika Longbottom. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From princess_danika at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 07:21:00 2001 From: princess_danika at hotmail.com (Danika Saal) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:21:00 +1000 Subject: hpforgrownups-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21455 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 26 07:29:52 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:29:52 -0000 Subject: CoS Stuff (Dobby the Mail Thief) In-Reply-To: <20010625204247.78280.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9h9dlg+u109@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21456 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Andrea wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote: > > My other random guess is that > > with > > the letters Dobby took > > from Harry, most likely in a letter Hermione writes, > > the date of the Hogwarts trip was > > mentioned. We don't see what happens to the letters > > that Dobby stole, so it could be > > possible that Lucius might have had them from Dobby. > > But don't we? Dobby shows the letters to Harry after > inadvertantly revealing that he'd been stealing them, > and Harry grabs them. I never thought of the mail > theft as something that Lucius inspired, but rather > something Dobby did on his own to make Harry think his > friends and forgotten him. Thus, Lucius never even > knew Dobby had the letters, much less got to read them > and use the information inside them. > > Just my two Knuts on the subject. :) Yes, but Harry still didn't get them back, did he? Dobby says he will only return them if Harry promises not to return to Hogwarts that year. There is no mention of Harry getting the letters back, so it is still conceivable that Dobby took them back with him when he disapparated, thereby making it possible for Lucius to intercept them. Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 26 08:06:31 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:06:31 -0000 Subject: Jumbled thoughts on how Harry could have killed Sirius Message-ID: <9h9fq7+1bnm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21457 Joy's post on Harry being unable to kill Sirius due to his innate morality really made me think (excellent post!). I have often wondered how Harry was going to kill Sirius. The conclusion I came to, was that Harry has on occassions, let his emotions get the better of him and performed uncontrolled magic - the blowing up of Marge is an excellent example of this. Would it therefore be a natural progression to assume that Harry's anger over Sirius' alleged betrayal of his parents is an anger which is a huge magnification of his anger at Aunt Marge? If he can blow up his aunt as a result of his anger, is it possible that his anger during this scene, which must be much stronger, could allow him to kill someone, without knowing exactly how to do so? The fact that he is holding his wand could serve him to channel his anger, thereby making his actions more effective. I think there is a moment there when it would have been possible. The difference between this scene and the one with Aunt Marge, is that (as Joy says) Harry knows that the ramifications of what he is doing are much further reaching, which gives him pause for thought. Crookshanks' involvement also hinders him - this delay forces him to control his anger, therefore stopping him from acting on it. I did initially think that the two incidents above were materially different, as with Aunt Marge it was a very hotheaded emotional reaction, whereas with Sirius it was a very cold fury which had been allowed to fester over a period of time. Now, however, I think that they are more similar than I thought - Harry's anger at Aunt Marge was a culmination of years of abuse - the one week we see at the beginning of PoA could be seen as a microcosm of the whole of her treatment of him over the past years. Harry, until this point had reined in his anger - controls it until the memory of his parents are abused which is when he loses control. With Sirius, Harry has had time to dwell on his alleged betrayal of his parents, and seeing Sirius in the flesh has the effect of bringing his long-felt anger to the fore. What also interests me is the fact that on the few occassions that Harry does lose his temper, it is generally because of his parents. Aunt Marge, Sirius, Snape. Sorry about the confusion. I should perhaps have waited until my thoughts were clearer and easier to express, but I suppose that this way there may be more reaction! Catherine From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 26 08:26:56 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:26:56 -0000 Subject: Why Ron Isn't a Seer In-Reply-To: <9godmk+74bc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h9h0g+35sb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21458 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote: > I don't understand why people think Ron is a Seer. I agree with everything you say here. I can't see any evidence at all that Ron is a Seer. In fact, I have always thought that out of the three, he is the one who seems to get the most wrong. This is despite the fact that many of his comments are intuitive. An example of this is Snape. Ron hates Snape, period. This is obviously understandable, because Snape does treat all the Gryffindors abominably, but Ron is still adamant, despite a great deal of evidence to the contrary, that Snape=evil and that therefore he can't be trusted, and is "after" Harry. The other two do not see this. Harry hates Snape, but has begun to trust him. Hermione also doesn't like Snape, but always refutes any idea that Snape is evil and can't be trusted, whenever Ron brings it up. This to me seems to be an example of Ron seeing things at face value and not exploring beyond this, whereas both Harry and Hermione are prepared to explore the fact that things and people are not always as they appear to be. Ron always seems to me to be grasping at straws when trying to work out what is going on. He often comes up with one idea after the other, many of which do not even come close to hitting the mark - if something does, it seems to be more through luck and because he has exhausted so many other implausible ideas rather than any real understanding of the situation and foresight. His "intuition" is really feelings developed from personal gripes and wizarding prejudice. I think that the real Seer is Harry. However, I am not sure whether this sight has only one focus - that of Voldemort, who is, afterall, a part of him (transferal of powers etc.) IIRC, the only other dream unconnected to Voldemort is when he is chasing Prongs through the forest - again, a manifestation of his father, therefore a part of him. The only other incident which made me think was his prediction that Buckbeak would not be executed. Did he really predict this, or was it just stubbornness? I can quite imagine that he would say this because a) it's what he wants to happen and b) because he knows that Professor Trelawney is only interested in the doom and gloom side of divination an he therefore is deliberately contrary. Catherine From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Jun 26 10:54:39 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:54:39 -0000 Subject: Harry's temperament/killing Sirius Message-ID: <9h9plf+p4qe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21459 Catherine wrote: ?I have often wondered how Harry was going to kill Sirius. The conclusion I came to, was that Harry has on occassions, let his emotions get the better of him and performed uncontrolled magic - the blowing up of Marge is an excellent example of this." <> ?Now, however, I think that they are more similar than I thought - Harry's anger at Aunt Marge was a culmination of years of abuse - the one week we see at the beginning of PoA could be seen as a microcosm of the whole of her treatment of him over the past years. Harry, until this point had reined in his anger - controls it until the memory of his parents are abused which is when he loses control. With Sirius, Harry has had time to dwell on his alleged betrayal of his parents, and seeing Sirius in the flesh has the effect of bringing his long-felt anger to the fore." I don't think, personally, that Harry *would* have been able to kill Sirius, neither in terms of magical skills nor in terms of character. I mean, if he stopped because of Crookshanks, he wouldn't have killed a human being. It was just a *wish*, an uncontrollable urge, the gesture of complete helplessness in a situation more than one number too big for him. still Catherine writing: ?What also interests me is the fact that on the few occassions that Harry does lose his temper, it is generally because of his parents. Aunt Marge, Sirius, Snape." I think that a person who has been growing up like Harry did, is indeed very difficult to humiliate- even if I wouldn't say the Dursleys (except for Dudley) beat him, the way they treated him didn't leave him many possibilities of developing something like pride and self- consciousness. Just think of the clothes they forced him to wear at school!! One group member coined the very good expression (in that case related to Snape)of being on "emotional auto- pilot". IMO, that's the way Harry got through the first eleven years of his life: Being on auto-pilot, allowing himself the odd joke at Dudley, but nothing else. His only source of pride, after having found out about his parents, are James and Lily, the heroic couple that died protecting him and thinking him worth of this sacrifice. But the only point of pride is also the only vulnerable point: He really loses his temper when somebody insults his parents (Marge, snape) and, of course, with Sirius. Susanna From meijen_s at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 11:20:03 2001 From: meijen_s at hotmail.com (Meijen Shaggy) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:20:03 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21460 And that's mentioned in the Lexicon too. See the Riddles Page, it's all there. JKR have been asked whether Arabella Figg and Mrs. Figg were the same person, and her answer was (sort of...) positive... Meijen Shaggy :o) >From: "Danika Nicole" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg >Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:05:11 +1000 > >I just had a look at the Lexion site, and there is a mistake in the list of >'Muggles' in the HP books. > >In case no one here noticed, Mrs Figg, the lady who in PS babysits Harry on >Dudleys birthdays, etc, and has loads of smelly cats, is in fact not a >muggle, but a witch. > >At the end of GOF Dumbledore instructs Sirius to contact the 'Old' crowd >and >this includes one "Arabella Figg". > > > >Perhaps she was the reason it was safe for Harry to go home each summer, >cause there was a witch always close by......? > > >Danika Longbottom. >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From pbnesbit at msn.com Tue Jun 26 11:38:22 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:38:22 -0000 Subject: CHAP. 17 SUMMARY: Cat, Rat, and Dog/Richard III In-Reply-To: <9h928v+o0a3@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h9s7e+ktsc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21461 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote: > Has anyone else noticed the similarity to the satiric jingle > circulated in England under the reign of (and attacking) Richard III > > The Cat, the Rat, and Lovell (our Dog) ruleth all England > under a Hog? > > The Cat, Rat, and Lovell were advisors to Richard III..the hog > > Susan :Raises hand: I did. Interesting reference (Richard III was much- maligned, IMNSHO), though I'm not quite sure what it has to do with HP. Maybe JKR just liked the way it sounded? Peace & Plenty, Parker From dianne at surfshop.net.ph Tue Jun 26 11:50:12 2001 From: dianne at surfshop.net.ph (-=dianne=-) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:50:12 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating DEs References: <993531905.2523.25870.l6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3B3876F4.131C9F2@surfshop.net.ph> No: HPFGUIDX 21462 > > And, one final thought---is it a requirement that DEs must be able > to > > Apparate? It would certainly come in very handy, but I don't think > Wormtail > > could, otherwise he'd have done it when he set up Sirius Black. > Maybe this > > is a requirement only for the highest ranks of the organization--- > as I've > > said before, I do not think for a second that the people we saw in > the > > graveyard are anything like the total number of DEs. Voldemort > would > > probably only summon the highest-ranking members to him at such an > occasion. > > Apparition, I would think, is probably a required skill on the DE > application. But I think most of the DEs _have_ to be smarter then > Pettigrew, or else how could V have gotten so strong? A leader needs > strong followers. Pettigrew, I bet, got in b/c of his connection to > James, and the Animagi skill was a big bonus. And to me, it sounds > like most adult wizards can Apparate - it's just the easiest and most > convenient way of travel. > > Allison > Speaking of Apparating, how do the DEs know where Voldie is? I mean, how do they know where to Apparate to when they feel the Dark Mark burning? --Dianne From bkdelong at pobox.com Tue Jun 26 12:56:50 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:56:50 -0400 Subject: Harry Potter TRAILER available NOW Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010626085644.067d51a0@brain-stream.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21463 Hi all - Someone just sent us the URL for the trailer on AOL and it's worked for several of us. Check it out here: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_06_24_archive.html#4248063 -- B.K. DeLong Editor-in-Chief The Leaky Cauldron an (unofficial) Harry Potter news site +1.617.877.3271 bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org From mediaphen at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 13:12:48 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (mediaphen at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:12:48 -0000 Subject: the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <37.1703d42b.28694c5b@aol.com> Message-ID: <9ha1og+ubm5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21464 Hi everybody! This missing-weasley-child-thread has been very interesting, indeed. However, the speculation seems to be about a son between Charles and Percival being killed by V/DE/insert-favourite-nasty-critter-here or sadly stillborn. Now, here're my thoughts on the matter, and please forgive me if someone has posted this before (I searched the archives but didn't find it): When Arthur and Molly got married they had their first child, a boy whose name we do not know yet. They had two more babies, Bill and Charlie, but shortly after Charlie was born, the oldest boy started behaving strangely. He seemed to be extremely rude and nasty to his brothers and all the other kids in the neighbourhood. By the time he was old enough to go to school, he promptly declared that he was going to Durmstrang to get the best education in the Dark Arts as possible. Arthur and Molly was of course both depressed and furious that their child had turned out to be evil. Once finished at Durmstrang, The Bad Weasley returned to Britain to join Voldie, and wether he died in VWI or was taken to Azkaban is besides the point, he was neither a son af Arthur's and Molly's, nor a brother of B, C, P, F&G, R and G's, as far as they saw. This little theory of mine would explain a few things: 1. If, indeed, Ron has an unknown older brother, it would explain why the Weasleys never talk about him. When you reject a son or brother you're not too keen on bringing this up: "Well, I have to keep up with my brothers, you know, Harry." said Ron. "Percy is a prefect, Charlie was the best Quidditch player in years, Bill was Head Boy, and my oldest brother was a personal advisor to You-know-who." 2. The gap between Charlie and Percy. If Charlie was newborn when the Bad Weasley started showing his true colours, A&M wanted to be sure he was the only bad apple in the bag. When Bill turned out fine, they started, hmm, reproducing again. 3. Ron's comment about being the sixth of his brothers to go too Hogwarts. True (according to this theory), The Bad Weasley went to Durmstrang. Please don't hurt me, Weasley-lovers out there (mind you, I too love the Weasleys as much as the next guy, Gredandforge is definately my favourite major character). The bad Weasley is probably misled by the Dark side, and it is not A&M's fault, whatsoever. We don't blame Lily for Petunia's being an arse, do we? As for the little "jokes" I threw in, please forgive me, they're only there to lighten up an otherwise rather dark subject (and a dark theory). >From one thing to another: I see people throw in their personal wand specifications here and there. Where can I find that quiz? I have located the character quiz and the sorting (Hermione/Ron, of Ravenclaw, BTW) but not the Wand-chose-o-matic. Martin, who is yet to find GoF in Swedish bookstores (thank the maker for Amazon!) Favourite Being: The Swedish Shourt-Snout Favourite Magical Sport: The Annual broom race between Kopparberg and Arjeplog. From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Jun 26 13:14:29 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:14:29 -0000 Subject: Bill Weasley - PoA Chapter Questions - More Little Weasleys In-Reply-To: <3B381E14.D18FA806@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9ha1rl+3e8f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21465 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rita Winston wrote: > Avada Kedavra is not the only way to kill someone. Levitation can do it > -- remember in Book 1, when Ron cast Wingardium Leviosa and the troll's > own club hit it on the head? That would have killed someone with a less > hard head than a troll's.> IIRC, there is no evidence that Ron's spell actually killed the smelly troll - I thought the troll was knocked out. Either way, Harry not only didn't kill Sirius, he didn't even hurt him when his wand was pointing right at Sirius. Yes, Harry's temper came out when he physically attacked Sirius (I understand that and have lost my temper similarly), but when he really has the upper hand, he cannot do it. Like other people have said in various posts, Harry is aware of the consequences if he kills Sirius, and he does not want to suffer those consequences or allow his friends to suffer the consequences either. --jenny from ravenclaw************************************ From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Jun 26 13:58:32 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:58:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9ha1og+ubm5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010626135832.64894.qmail@web14703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21466 Hi, Martin, great post!!! And great theory. An evil Weasley-son would certainly spice up the whole thing. My only argument against it: I don't think Durmstrang has always been the haven of Dark Arts- don't you think that Karkaroff brought about a change when he became Headmaster? Now, Karkaroff seems rather of the Voldemort generation, maybe he was a classmate of Riddle/Voldemort at Hogwarts? Therefore, he couldn't possibly have become Headmaster of Durmstrang before V's downfall (before, he would have been to young, I suppose) which brings us to 14 years ago. Supposing that you enter Durmstrang at the same age as Hogwarts, the "evil Weasley" would now be 25 which I think is too young to fit into the picture. But he could have been second or third- born, so that would make Percy the first attempt at another child after the evil one. Susanna/pigwidgeon37 --- mediaphen at hotmail.com ha scritto:
Hi everybody!

This missing-weasley-child-thread has been very interesting, indeed.
However, the speculation seems to be about a son between Charles and
Percival being killed by V/DE/insert-favourite-nasty-critter-here or
sadly stillborn.
Now, here're my thoughts on the matter, and please forgive me if
someone has posted this before (I searched the archives but didn't
find it):
When Arthur and Molly got married they had their first child, a boy
whose name we do not know yet. They had two more babies, Bill and
Charlie, but shortly after Charlie was born, the oldest boy started
behaving strangely. He seemed to be extremely rude and nasty to his
brothers and all the other kids in the neighbourhood. By the time he
was old enough to go to school, he promptly declared that he was
going to Durmstrang to get the best education in the Dark Arts as
possible. Arthur and Molly was of course both depressed and furious
that their child had turned out to be evil. Once finished at
Durmstrang, The Bad Weasley returned to Britain to join Voldie, and
wether he died in VWI or was taken to Azkaban is besides the point,
he was neither a son af Arthur's and Molly's, nor a brother of B, C,
P, F&G, R and G's, as far as they saw.
This little theory of mine would explain a few things:
1. If, indeed, Ron has an unknown older brother, it would explain why
the Weasleys never talk about him. When you reject a son or brother
you're not too keen on bringing this up: "Well, I have to keep up
with my brothers, you know, Harry." said Ron. "Percy is a prefect,
Charlie was the best Quidditch player in years, Bill was Head Boy,
and my oldest brother was a personal advisor to You-know-who."
2. The gap between Charlie and Percy. If Charlie was newborn when the
Bad Weasley started showing his true colours, A&M wanted to be sure
he was the only bad apple in the bag. When Bill turned out fine, they
started, hmm, reproducing again.
3. Ron's comment about being the sixth of his brothers to go too
Hogwarts. True (according to this theory), The Bad Weasley went to
Durmstrang.

Please don't hurt me, Weasley-lovers out there (mind you, I too love
the Weasleys as much as the next guy, Gredandforge is definately my
favourite major character). The bad Weasley is probably misled by the
Dark side, and it is not A&M's fault, whatsoever. We don't blame Lily
for Petunia's being an arse, do we?
As for the little "jokes" I threw in, please forgive me, they're only
there to lighten up an otherwise rather dark subject (and a dark
theory).

>From one thing to another: I see people throw in their personal wand
specifications here and there. Where can I find that quiz? I have
located the character quiz and the sorting (Hermione/Ron, of
Ravenclaw, BTW) but not the Wand-chose-o-matic.

Martin, who is yet to find GoF in Swedish bookstores (thank the maker
for Amazon!)

Favourite Being: The Swedish Shourt-Snout
Favourite Magical Sport: The Annual broom race between Kopparberg and
Arjeplog.
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From kdevine at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 14:06:33 2001 From: kdevine at yahoo.com (Kevin Devine) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:06:33 -0000 Subject: Voldemort, the Scheming Villain In-Reply-To: <9h90tl+taoe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ha4t9+qc69@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21467 I have to agree with these statements. Voldemort could have easily gotten HP's toothbrush and then killed him, but Volde needs drama. He needs to feel that he can create the unescapable death trap and let's be perfectly honest, it nearly worked. There are many occurences that, upon analysis, we say 'Why didn't they...' to the villians (and even the heroes). In Terminator II, I constantly wonder why the T1000 didn't assume the form of the Arnie bot instead of the Conners, but that would have ended the movie too quickly. Why didn't the Ghostbusters just buy some heavy explosives (hey, they bought nuclear accelerators) and demolish the building. Why did every Bond villian spell out his plan before attempting to kill Bond. Its just what villians do. Voldemort is a great, classic villian, evil enough to kill the bystanders, but he cannot simply destroy the hero. Just my 2c, Kevin --- In HPforGrownups at y..., find_sam at h... wrote: > Eric Oppen wrote: > > One thing that struck _me_ about the scene in the cemetery where > Voldie reunites with his "faithful" Death Eaters is that he > apparently has no problem calling them by name. Why bother with > those stupid robes if you're going to be using real names, out loud? > I'm sure that Voldemort's easily smart enough to come up with code > names, which would also make it a lot harder for a traitor to betray > the whole lot of them in one fell swoop. > > Voldemort makes his Death Eaters wear the robes, IMO, because he is a > Scheming Villain. His ultimate goal is to dominate the wizarding > world, yes, but he wants everything to be 'perfect' as he does so. > His creepy followers *must* wear spooky black robes. Having evil > followers who wear their usual apparel to meetings is hardly the > proper way to go about things, is it? Especially when you're a > Scheming Villain. > > This idea of Voldemort as the Scheming Villain is especially > important in GoF. One of the regularly discussed topics on this list > is: Why did Voldemort have to wait until the Last Task until he got > Harry to Portkey over to him; why didn't Moody just make Harry's > toothbrush a Portkey? > > The answer, I believe, is that Voldemort is a Scheming Villain. He > wants to succeed, but he wants to scheme, too. He's so sadistic that > there's no fun in it for him if he's not scheming. It's hardly going > to look impressive to his followers if he killed Harry Potter by > transfiguring his toothbrush. OTOH, coming back to power and killing > Harry Potter under the noses of the whole wizarding community... > *that's* impressive. > > Of course, it's also a great device on which JKR can construct the > canon. I suppose in a way we're all scheming readers - GoF would > hardly be such a great book if Moody had turned Harry's *toothbrush* > into a Portkey. PoA would have sucked if Sirius had killed 'Scabbers' > on his first visit to Hogwarts. And so on. > > > Sam From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 14:10:29 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:10:29 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9ha54l+n2ag@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21468 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Danika Nicole" wrote: > I just had a look at the Lexion site, and there is a mistake in the > list of 'Muggles' in the HP books. > > In case no one here noticed, Mrs Figg, the lady who in PS babysits > Harry on Dudleys birthdays, etc, and has loads of smelly cats, is > in fact not a muggle, but a witch. > > At the end of GOF Dumbledore instructs Sirius to contact the 'Old' > crowd and this includes one "Arabella Figg". Well, until Mrs. Figg is positively identified as being one in the same with Arabella Figg, that comes down to speculation. Granted, I think most believe that they are the same, but it's not yet explicit in the canon. ....Craig From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Tue Jun 26 14:38:50 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:38:50 -0000 Subject: Voldemort, the scheming villain Message-ID: <9ha6pq+48vv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21469 Kevin Devine wrote: "I have to agree with these statements. Voldemort could have easily gotten HP's toothbrush and then killed him, but Volde needs drama. He needs to feel that he can create the unescapable death trap and let's be perfectly honest, it nearly worked." I completely agree with you! If othello had talked sensibly to desdemona for just once, if Violetta *had* spoken to Alfredo- but there you go, that's drama and, honestly, we *love* it.... And JKR used another old, but very effective dramatic trick: The murderer that can't just kill but has to show his superiority- this has saved the lives of countless heroes who would have died, hadn't the villain given in to temptation. Voldy could have killed Harry by Avada Kedavra, leaving him tied to the tombstone. But 1) he wants to destroy forever the myth of Harry causing his downfall, and 2) he's a bloody sadist and enjoys nothing as much as torturing. susanna From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 26 14:58:49 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:58:49 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: <9ha54l+n2ag@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ha7v9+92oj@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21470 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Danika Nicole" > wrote: > > I just had a look at the Lexion site, and there is a mistake in the > > list of 'Muggles' in the HP books. > > > > In case no one here noticed, Mrs Figg, the lady who in PS babysits > > Harry on Dudleys birthdays, etc, and has loads of smelly cats, is > > in fact not a muggle, but a witch. > > > > At the end of GOF Dumbledore instructs Sirius to contact the 'Old' > > crowd and this includes one "Arabella Figg". > > Well, until Mrs. Figg is positively identified as being one in the > same with Arabella Figg, that comes down to speculation. Granted, > I think most believe that they are the same, but it's not yet > explicit in the canon. > > ....Craig It isn't speculation. It is confirmed by JKR. If you look at the Blue Peter transcript in the Files section, you will see that she unequivocally says that "Arabella Figg is Mrs Figg" but that we'd have to wait until Book 5 to see where she fits in. Catherine From mariannayus at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 15:04:29 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS Stuff (Dobby the Mail Thief) In-Reply-To: <20010625204247.78280.qmail@web10907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010626150429.27177.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21471 > But don't we? Dobby shows the letters to Harry > after > inadvertantly revealing that he'd been stealing > them, > and Harry grabs them. I never thought of the mail > theft as something that Lucius inspired, but rather > something Dobby did on his own to make Harry think > his > friends and forgotten him. Thus, Lucius never even > knew Dobby had the letters, much less got to read > them > and use the information inside them. > > Just my two Knuts on the subject. :) > > > Andrea > > Hi! This is my first post here :) I agree with someone who posted earlier, saying that it was "lucky" chance. Another alternative is that possibly there is a tracking spell, or such, that Lucius could use to find out where the Weasleys were going to be. However, I think that it is not necessarily clear that LM had this diary on purpose to stick into Ginny's bag on that day. He possibly, and very probably, planned to "give" it to a Hogwarts student (either a Mudblood or Muggle-lover). Either before or during school year. That it happened to be Ginny is (a) partly by chance (she was there) and (b) she is a Weasley, wose father provoked LM once more. So LM's planting the diary on Ginny is a combination of his plan to plant it on someone and her being around, and also the fact that AW just fought him. It might have been a general plan, but after the scuffle, it also became directed malice. Another alternative is that he might have contemplated doing something unsavory with it, and the nebulous idea was crystallized by his meeting the Weasleys. As to why he was carying it around? I believe if you shook LM upside down at any given time, at least half a dozen Dark Magic objects would fall out. As to a point someone else made (I am sorry, I did not keep the previous posts), I do not believe LM ever wrote in the diary. He might be a Death Eater, but he is also powerful and intelligent wizard. He knows how dangerous that type of magic could be. Much more than my 2cents Marsha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mariannayus at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 15:12:03 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death Eater Similarities In-Reply-To: <9h8ik1+sork@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010626151203.80239.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21472 --- Allison wrote: > > One thing that struck _me_ about the scene in the > cemetery where > Voldie > > reunites with his "faithful" Death Eaters is that > he apparently has > no > > problem calling them by name. Why bother with > those stupid robes > if you're > > going to be using real names, out loud? I'm sure > that Voldemort's > easily > > smart enough to come up with code names, which > would also make it a > lot > > harder for a traitor to betray the whole lot of > them in one fell > swoop. The robes are for terrifying the general populace, IMO. The death eaters know who they are, but every one else does not. Wizards seem to be awfully trusting, considering the existence of Imperio and the "change yourself into looking like someone else spell." No wonder Moody is paranoid. Marsha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 15:21:42 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:21:42 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: <9ha54l+n2ag@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9ha9a6+vh2g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21473 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Danika Nicole" > wrote: > > I just had a look at the Lexion site, and there is a mistake in the > > list of 'Muggles' in the HP books. > > > > In case no one here noticed, Mrs Figg, the lady who in PS babysits > > Harry on Dudleys birthdays, etc, and has loads of smelly cats, is > > in fact not a muggle, but a witch. > > > > At the end of GOF Dumbledore instructs Sirius to contact the 'Old' > > crowd and this includes one "Arabella Figg". > > Well, until Mrs. Figg is positively identified as being one in the > same with Arabella Figg, that comes down to speculation. Granted, > I think most believe that they are the same, but it's not yet > explicit in the canon. > > ....Craig Craig, JKR said that Mrs. Figg was Arabella Figg in an interview, either a Scholastic online chat or from the "Today" show, I forget which. Haggridd From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Tue Jun 26 15:15:56 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:15:56 -0400 Subject: MWPP Summary Coming Soon To This Bat-Station Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21474 Actually, it won't be on the Bat-Station; Snape objected after I wrote that subject line... I an supposed to be doing a summary of James, Sirius, Remus & Peter (aka Prongs, Padfoot, Moony and Wormtail) for the "character discussion" this week and next week. However, due to some recent alterna-obligations, including but not limited to beta-reading Trouble In Paradise and A Sirius Affair, I haven't been able to finish it. But I will, by the end of the day tomorrow, and I will post it then. So Carole, Monika - calm DOWN! You can talk about sirius VERY VERY soon :) From galtvort2000 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 16:12:09 2001 From: galtvort2000 at hotmail.com (@lba Humlesnurr) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:12:09 -0000 Subject: hpforgrownups-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21475 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vderark at bccs.org Tue Jun 26 16:46:06 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:46:06 -0000 Subject: Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9hae8e+4p76@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21476 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Danika Nicole" wrote: > I just had a look at the Lexion site, and there is a mistake in the list of > 'Muggles' in the HP books. Yes, that page has not been updated. However, if you do a search for "Figg" you will find that the new information about her has been incorporated into other pages. I just missed the mention on the Muggle page. I am getting a little nervous about all the changes that I'll have to make when OP comes out. I'm just getting caught up from FB and QA! Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 17:26:25 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry never gets anyone presents In-Reply-To: <9h8v8e+ks8l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010626172625.14109.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21477 --- toomanyideas at aol.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > > In the books Harry always gets christmas presents > from Ron Hermione, > > rons family and Hagrid but it never mentions him > giving any > presents, > > does it? > > He does buy socks for Dobby, though.. And he gets Ron a Chudley Cannons hat in GOF. And from the way he and Ron are talking at the beginning of GOF when he buys the binoculars, he gives Christmas presents regularly, at least. It's never really mentioned in the earlier books, but I think that's more a case of excluding unimportant things so the book isn't too long. Besides, when you're 11, what do you think about on Christmas morning - all the stuff you gave other people, or all the cool stuff *you* got? ;) Andrea 7 1/2 inches, maple, phoenix feather ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From pjern1 at home.com Tue Jun 26 18:01:19 2001 From: pjern1 at home.com (Phil Jern) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:01:19 -0000 Subject: 2nd Trailer - Spoilers - You can see it now Message-ID: <9hailf+mp44@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21478 http://bb1.stream.aol.com:8080/ramgen/demand/harrypotter/pottertrailer 2_aolgeneral.rm It's up as of right now, I'll try to describe it a bit: (My first go at this, so be nice) s p o i l e r s p a c e s p o i l e r s p a c e Opens with shots of Diagon Alley & Gringotts...leading to Ollivander's wand shop... Same music, more fleshed out - very cool VOICE (Ollivander?) "Didja ever make anything happen? Anything you couldn't explain?" HAGRID: "Yer a Wizard, Harry!" HARRY: "I'm a wot?" (WB LOGO APPEARS) Night shot of First Years crossing the lake, Hogwarts in Distance Voice reading the first part of Harry's letter (not sure whose, sounds like a preteen girl) Shot of Minerva McGonagall in front of door with 1st years MM: "In a few moments you will pass throough These doors and join your new classmates" Dissolve to Great Hall Scene as in Teaser Trailer Cut to Moving Staircase PERCY (?): "Keep an eye on the Staircases, they like to change" Cut to overhead Zoom in (Hedwig's POV) of Great hall, then to scene of Hedwig delivering Harry's Broom (WAY COOL!!!!!!!!) Cut to Flying Lesson MME HOOCH: "Good afternoon, class, welcome to your first Flying Lesson! take your right hand over the broom and say 'UP'" HARRY AND CLASS: "UP!" Broom ZAPS into his hand HARRY: "Wow!" Shot of feet leaving the ground unsteadily MME HOOCH: "MR Longbottom? Exactly where do you think you're going? (This is the same shot as the teaser trailer, zooming up from the class, but Neville is CGI'ed into the frame wobbling upwards, out of control. Funny!) Short cut of Harry,Hermione,& Ron walking CUT to Harry and Ron on train RON: "Do you really have the-- the scar?" (Harry lifts up his hair) RON: "Wicked!" Cut to Potions class, SNAPE: "Mr. Potter... Our new ... Celebrity." (Oh, the ladies are gonna have the vapors hearing Alan Rickman deliver this line... Wonderful!) DUMBLEDORE V.O. "First years should note that the Dark Forest is strictly forbidden... that no magic is to be used between clases in the corridors...(shot of HARRY holding the Snitch, it's wings flutter and it flies off) Cut to Hermione pointing her wand at NEVILLE HERMIONE: "Petrificous Totalis!" NEVILLE stiffens like a board and falls backwards. DUMBLEDORE: "The first floor corridor is out-of-bounds to anyone who does not wish to suffer....a most painful death." Cut to GREAT HALL QUIRRELL: "Troll!!!!! TROLL in the Dungeon!!!" Quick cut to brief shot of Troll (AWESOME!!!!!!!!) Quirrell faints in the middle of the hall HAGRID: "Understand this Harry, because it's very important: Not all Wizards are Good (CUT to QUIRRELL and SNAPE conspiring) Cut to the magic CHESSBOARD HERMIONE: "I'm going back to bed, till either of you come up with anothert clever idea to get us killed- or worse, expelled!" RON: "She needs to sort out her priorities" CUT to FLUFFY: (Ooooooooooooooh yeah, this can account for the screaming scene!!!) OLLIVANDER (?): "I think it is clear, that we can expect grat things from you" Cut to harry on broom as WOOD tosses the snitch (Quidditch practice, but looks like it takes place on a hilltop) HARRY zooms out-of-frame Cut to stormy skies, magic begins, etc. Whoo, lotta typing! From pbarhug at earthlink.net Tue Jun 26 18:13:23 2001 From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:13:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter TRAILER available NOW References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010626085644.067d51a0@brain-stream.com> Message-ID: <3B38D0C3.B09D98DB@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21479 "B.K. DeLong" wrote: > Hi all - > > Someone just sent us the URL for the trailer on AOL and it's worked > for > several of us. Check it out here: > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_06_24_archive.html#4248063 > I just tried it and it works just fine. I have DSL; the picture and the sound were both top quality. All I can say is: WOW! This ttrailer has dispelled many if my doubts about the movie. Shall I describe the trailer? Or are we going to hold off on that so as not to spoil it for others? I am willing to provide a description in as much detail as I can muster. drpam From colin at ccomm.com Tue Jun 26 18:20:20 2001 From: colin at ccomm.com (Colin) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:20:20 -0000 Subject: 2nd Trailer - Spoilers - You can see it now In-Reply-To: <9hailf+mp44@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hajp4+c9p1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21480 > Cut to harry on broom as WOOD tosses the snitch (Quidditch practice, > but looks like it takes place on a hilltop) > > HARRY zooms out-of-frame Actually, it's Draco Malfoy, and he's throwing the Remembrall. :) But good recap anyway! --Colin From MadameAnonyme at aol.com Tue Jun 26 18:24:50 2001 From: MadameAnonyme at aol.com (MadameAnonyme at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:24:50 -0000 Subject: 2nd Trailer - SPOILERS - You can see it now In-Reply-To: <9hailf+mp44@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hak1i+906f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21481 --- "Phil Jern" wrote: > [The second HP trailer is] up as of right now, > I'll try to describe it a bit: ::looks around shyly and waves:: Hi all. Delurking briefly to add a comment or two. I've watched the trailer numerous times since the URL got...um..."discovered" early this morning (::grin::), and I just wanted to add some additional comments. :-) > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > s > p > a > c > e > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > s > p > a > c > e > VOICE (Ollivander?) "Didja ever make anything happen? Anything you > couldn't explain?" I believe the voice is Hagrid's (although the scene does look to be set in Ollivander's Wand Shop). > Voice reading the first part of Harry's letter (not sure whose, > sounds like a preteen girl) ::big grin:: Methinks that's Daniel Radcliffe reading the letter. > PERCY (?): "Keep an eye on the Staircases, they like to change" Yep, that's Percy. > RON: "Do you really have the-- the scar?" > (Harry lifts up his hair) > RON: "Wicked!" And I sure wish I could *see* that scar! ::sigh:: RealPlayer has its limitations. > Cut to harry on broom as WOOD tosses the snitch > (Quidditch practice, > but looks like it takes place on a hilltop) > HARRY zooms out-of-frame This is actually the scene with Draco and Harry and Neville's Remembrall. Things should be made just a little bit clearer when the QuickTime version of the trailer is released. ::returns to lurker mode:: :-) -- Anonyme From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 18:30:31 2001 From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:30:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's Doomed Admirer In-Reply-To: <20010623203159.90221.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hakc7+mt9g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21482 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > Eric, > > While Molly seems like a likely canidate I think its more likely that it will be Arthur. That's just me though... > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] However, I bet 5 Galleons, 9 Sickles, and 14 Knuts that it will be Dobby. (Sorry, not a big wager, but it's all I've got!) - Jamie From pjern1 at home.com Tue Jun 26 18:34:09 2001 From: pjern1 at home.com (Phil Jern) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:34:09 -0000 Subject: 2nd Trailer - Spoilers - corrections In-Reply-To: <9hailf+mp44@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hakj2+q6fo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21483 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Phil Jern" wrote: > > http://bb1.stream.aol.com:8080/ramgen/demand/harrypotter/pottertrailer > 2_aolgeneral.rm > > > It's up as of right now, I'll try to describe it a bit: > (My first go at this, so be nice) > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > s > p > a > c > e > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > s > p > a > c > e In my mad typing, I made some errors. Corrections noted > > Opens with shots of Diagon Alley & Gringotts...leading to > Ollivander's wand shop... > > Same music, more fleshed out - very cool > > VOICE (Ollivander?) "Didja ever make anything happen? Anything you > couldn't explain?" Could also be HAGRID, but doesn't sound like him in the next line. > > HAGRID: "Yer a Wizard, Harry!" > > HARRY: "I'm a wot?" > > (WB LOGO APPEARS) > > Night shot of First Years crossing the lake, Hogwarts in Distance > > Voice reading the first part of Harry's letter (not sure whose, > sounds like a preteen girl) Could also be a boy, I couln't really identify the voice. > > Shot of Minerva McGonagall in front of door with 1st years > > MM: "In a few moments you will pass throough These doors and join > your new classmates" > > Dissolve to Great Hall Scene as in Teaser Trailer > > Cut to Moving Staircase > > PERCY (?): "Keep an eye on the Staircases, they like to change" > > Cut to overhead Zoom in (Hedwig's POV) of Great hall, then to scene > of Hedwig delivering Harry's Broom (WAY COOL!!!!!!!!) > > Cut to Flying Lesson > > MME HOOCH: "Good afternoon, class, welcome to your first Flying > Lesson! take your right hand over the broom and say 'UP'" > > HARRY AND CLASS: "UP!" > > Broom ZAPS into his hand > > HARRY: "Wow!" > > Shot of feet leaving the ground unsteadily > > MME HOOCH: "MR Longbottom? Exactly where do you think you're going? > > (This is the same shot as the teaser trailer, zooming up from the > class, but Neville is CGI'ed into the frame wobbling upwards, out of > control. Funny!) > > Short cut of Harry,Hermione,& Ron walking > > CUT to Harry and Ron on train > > RON: "Do you really have the-- the scar?" > > (Harry lifts up his hair) > > RON: "Wicked!" > > Cut to Potions class, > > SNAPE: "Mr. Potter... Our new ... Celebrity." > > (Oh, the ladies are gonna have the vapors hearing Alan Rickman > deliver this line... Wonderful!) > > DUMBLEDORE V.O. "First years should note that the Dark Forest is > strictly forbidden... that no magic is to be used between clases in > the corridors...(shot of HARRY holding the Snitch, it's wings flutter > and it flies off) > > Cut to Hermione pointing her wand at NEVILLE > > HERMIONE: "Petrificous Totalis!" > > NEVILLE stiffens like a board and falls backwards. > > DUMBLEDORE: "The first floor corridor is out-of-bounds to anyone who > does not wish to suffer....a most painful death." > Make that THIRD floor , ARGH! > Cut to GREAT HALL > > QUIRRELL: "Troll!!!!! TROLL in the Dungeon!!!" > > Quick cut to brief shot of Troll (AWESOME!!!!!!!!) > > Quirrell faints in the middle of the hall > > HAGRID: "Understand this Harry, because it's very important: Not all > Wizards are Good (CUT to QUIRRELL and SNAPE conspiring) > > Cut to the magic CHESSBOARD > > HERMIONE: "I'm going back to bed, till either of you come up with > anothert clever idea to get us killed- or worse, expelled!" > change "till" to "before" > RON: "She needs to sort out her priorities" > > CUT to FLUFFY: (Ooooooooooooooh yeah, this can account for the > screaming scene!!!) Also a quick cut of HAGRID on the flying motorcycle. > > OLLIVANDER (?): "I think it is clear, that we can expect grat things > from you" > > Cut to harry on broom as WOOD tosses the snitch (Quidditch practice, > but looks like it takes place on a hilltop) MALFOY throwing the Remembrall, tiny screen and bad eyes, sorry. > > HARRY zooms out-of-frame > > Cut to stormy skies, magic begins, etc. > > Whoo, lotta typing! From mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 18:42:45 2001 From: mizuki_kaho at yahoo.com (Michi) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry never gets anyone presents In-Reply-To: <9h8v8e+ks8l@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010626184245.21815.qmail@web3201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21484 --- toomanyideas at aol.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > > In the books Harry always gets christmas presents > from Ron Hermione, > > rons family and Hagrid but it never mentions him > giving any > presents, > > does it? > > > He does buy socks for Dobby, though.. In GoF, Ron gets all "eh"-like when he realizes that leprechaun gold disappears and he tells Harry something to the tune of, "You shouldn't have gotten me that Chudley Cannons hat for Christmas." So Harry DOES give presents; I can't see him giving just Ron a present and not bothering to give one to Hermione and Hagrid and some kind of present to the Weasleys... Michi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From MadameAnonyme at aol.com Tue Jun 26 18:53:28 2001 From: MadameAnonyme at aol.com (MadameAnonyme at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:53:28 -0000 Subject: 2nd Trailer - Spoilers - corrections In-Reply-To: <9hakj2+q6fo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9haln8+r2e5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21485 --- "Phil Jern" wrote: > http://bb1.stream.aol.com:8080/ramgen/demand/harrypotter/ > pottertrailer2_aolgeneral.rm There's also a high res version of the trailer at -- http://bb1.stream.aol.com:8080/ramgen/demand/harrypotter/pottertrailer 2_aolplus.rm Eeeek! Two posts in one day! ::runs and hides:: :-) -- Anonyme From pjern1 at home.com Tue Jun 26 18:57:12 2001 From: pjern1 at home.com (Phil Jern) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:57:12 -0000 Subject: The trailer seems to have disappeared Message-ID: <9halu8+585f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21486 for now....... Did someone somewhere screw up? Heh... From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 19:03:16 2001 From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:03:16 -0000 Subject: Weasley's & the Dark Mark - Scabber's - Dobby - Riddle's Diary Message-ID: <9ham9k+50mh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21487 Weasley's and the Dark Mark - It seems to me that Arthur's wincing reaction to the dark mark would not necessarily mean that he has lost a child. I think that everyone alive at Voldemort's rise to power was touched in someway - it could have been a child, a sibling, a parent or grandparent, a close friend, a co-worker (especially seeing as Arthur is at the ministry), a mentor/teacher. (I know this point was already brought up - I'm just agreeing) ;o) Also, the gap between Charlie and Percy could easily have to do with Arthur putting in so much overtime at the ministry during the height of V's power. ____________________ Scabbers - If Sirius could communicate with Crookshanks, then Scabbers probably caught enough from Crookshanks to know that he was helping Sirius to destroy him. Thus, his escape from Ron. The dormitory was no longer safe. _____________________ Dobby - The thing is that Dobby is quite an odd house elf, so we can't base a lot of generalities on him. However, we learn from Winky that part of a house elf's duty is to help keep the family secrets, so then, why would Lucius Malfoy need to hide anything from Dobby? I don't think that it would ever occur to them to act cautiously. However, Dobby breaks these rules (which, btw, I think is an exception to the rule). I think it is set up by JKR that we will be distrusting of Dobby, thinking he comes of Lucius's orders, when in fact he is going behind Lucius back. So, I don't think that the Malfoy's found out when the Weasley's were planning a trip to Diagon Alley through Dobby. It could have been an intelligent guess (since many Hogwart's students were present that day). However, it is a curious question why Dobby came to Hogwart's with Lucius Malfoy. Was he just hoping for a sight of Harry? Was he really polishing the shoes? (And you've got to love the line "YOU WILL NOT HURT HARRY POTTER, SIR!") _________________________ Riddle's Diary If TMR did find out about Harry from Ginny, then we can assume that Lucius never wrote in it. Maybe he knew it as a dark object that would brainwash anyone who wrote in it to join Voldemort. That would be great revenge to have Arthur the "muggle-lover's" daughter to switch sides. However, I don't think we can full trust Tom either. If he had said - "I heard about you from the Malfoy's" then Harry would have jumped to his guard. Anyway...just some thoughts. - Jamie From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 26 19:49:22 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:49:22 +0100 Subject: Depressed about Neville's fate Message-ID: <000001c0fe79$18f6cfa0$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 21488 I cannot help feeling that poor Neville will shortly fall victim to the curse of the Longbottoms, best expressed as "Ars longa, vita brevis". Susan From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Tue Jun 26 19:52:28 2001 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 26 Jun 2001 19:52:28 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups Message-ID: <993585148.2074.5390.s3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21489 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups group. File : /Fan Fiction/Alicia-Sue's Fics/AUC #01/CovenEp.htm Uploaded by : misanthropicsocialite at hotmail.com Description : Chapter 16: Epilogue You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan%20Fiction/Alicia-Sue%27s%20Fics/AUC%20%2301/CovenEp.htm To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, misanthropicsocialite at hotmail.com From meckelburg at foni.net Tue Jun 26 21:07:27 2001 From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:07:27 -0000 Subject: evil Weasly? was Re: the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <9ha1og+ubm5@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hatif+2ebk@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21490 Hi All! great explanation. if an additional Weasly, before Charlie,or between Bill and Percy doesn't change much, was evil, and perhaps sent to Azkaban, this would also explain the following. When Harry asked Ron about Azkaban, Ron said his father hadhad to make a visit there and came back very shaken ( can't give the exacte quote. my HP-books are upstairs- and so are thhe children (never tickle a sleeping dragon- and never ever wake up a 2year old wizard!!)) I always thought he had to go there for the MoM, but do we know for sure? just a thought Mecki --- In HPforGrownups at y..., mediaphen at h... wrote: > Hi everybody! > > This missing-weasley-child-thread has been very interesting, indeed. > However, the speculation seems to be about a son between Charles and > Percival being killed by V/DE/insert-favourite-nasty-critter-here or > sadly stillborn. > Now, here're my thoughts on the matter, and please forgive me if > someone has posted this before (I searched the archives but didn't > find it): > When Arthur and Molly got married they had their first child, a boy > whose name we do not know yet. They had two more babies, Bill and > Charlie, but shortly after Charlie was born, the oldest boy started > behaving strangely. He seemed to be extremely rude and nasty to his > brothers and all the other kids in the neighbourhood. By the time he > was old enough to go to school, he promptly declared that he was > going to Durmstrang to get the best education in the Dark Arts as > possible. Arthur and Molly was of course both depressed and furious > that their child had turned out to be evil. Once finished at > Durmstrang, The Bad Weasley returned to Britain to join Voldie, and > wether he died in VWI or was taken to Azkaban is besides the point, > he was neither a son af Arthur's and Molly's, nor a brother of B, C, > P, F&G, R and G's, as far as they saw. > This little theory of mine would explain a few things: > 1. If, indeed, Ron has an unknown older brother, it would explain why > the Weasleys never talk about him. When you reject a son or brother > you're not too keen on bringing this up: "Well, I have to keep up > with my brothers, you know, Harry." said Ron. "Percy is a prefect, > Charlie was the best Quidditch player in years, Bill was Head Boy, > and my oldest brother was a personal advisor to You-know-who." > 2. The gap between Charlie and Percy. If Charlie was newborn when the > Bad Weasley started showing his true colours, A&M wanted to be sure > he was the only bad apple in the bag. When Bill turned out fine, they > started, hmm, reproducing again. > 3. Ron's comment about being the sixth of his brothers to go too > Hogwarts. True (according to this theory), The Bad Weasley went to > Durmstrang. > > Please don't hurt me, Weasley-lovers out there (mind you, I too love > the Weasleys as much as the next guy, Gredandforge is definately my > favourite major character). The bad Weasley is probably misled by the > Dark side, and it is not A&M's fault, whatsoever. We don't blame Lily > for Petunia's being an arse, do we? > As for the little "jokes" I threw in, please forgive me, they're only > there to lighten up an otherwise rather dark subject (and a dark > theory). > > From one thing to another: I see people throw in their personal wand > specifications here and there. Where can I find that quiz? I have > located the character quiz and the sorting (Hermione/Ron, of > Ravenclaw, BTW) but not the Wand-chose-o-matic. > > Martin, who is yet to find GoF in Swedish bookstores (thank the maker > for Amazon!) > > Favourite Being: The Swedish Shourt-Snout > Favourite Magical Sport: The Annual broom race between Kopparberg and > Arjeplog. From priscilla at theninemuses.net Tue Jun 26 21:57:58 2001 From: priscilla at theninemuses.net (Priscilla Spencer) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:57:58 -0000 Subject: The trailer seems to have disappeared In-Reply-To: <9halu8+585f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hb0h6+hivn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21491 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Phil Jern" wrote: > for now....... > > Did someone somewhere screw up? Heh... It certainly appears that way. On "Keyword: Harry Potter", all that I can get is the old trailer. Is anyone else experiencing this problem? Priscilla From remcwill at aol.com Tue Jun 26 22:03:32 2001 From: remcwill at aol.com (remcwill at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:03:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 2nd Trailer - Spoilers - corrections Message-ID: <117.d81ac8.286a60b4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21492 Hi, I've been trying to get into both of the links listed and haven't been able to - its telling me the links are not good. Waaa! Is anyone else having this problem? Ruth From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 22:13:31 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS Stuff (Dobby the Mail Thief) In-Reply-To: <20010626150429.27177.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010626221331.57084.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21493 --- Marianna Lvovsky wrote: > Another alternative is that he might have > contemplated > doing something unsavory with it, and the nebulous > idea was crystallized by his meeting the Weasleys. > As > to why he was carying it around? I believe if you > shook LM upside down at any given time, at least > half > a dozen Dark Magic objects would fall out. > I read that and the image of LM being held upside-down by a "Wingardium Leviosa" spell just entered my head. After the day I've had today I really needed the laugh. Especially with the added imagery of everything from dark potions to Voldie's newest address coming out of his pockets to add to it. :D On a serious note, I can very easily see LM carring around the diary simply looking for the right mark to plant it on. After all hadn't he just been in Knockturn Alley? Trying to sell some Dark Magic items? So he might also have had it on him as something he was going sell but changed his mind at the last minute. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From reanna20 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 22:14:12 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: 2nd Trailer - Spoilers - corrections In-Reply-To: <117.d81ac8.286a60b4@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010626221412.77586.qmail@web14507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21494 --- remcwill at aol.com wrote: > Hi, I've been trying to get into both of the links listed and haven't > been > able to - its telling me the links are not good. Waaa! Is anyone > else > having this problem? > > Ruth > I can't either. I believe it's because I'm not an AOL member. They have restricted viewing to only AOL members. However, I think tomorrow other sites will be showing the trailer as well. I imagine by this weekend, somebody will have released the trailer in Quicktime. At least I hope so; RealPlayer tends to be grainy at times. ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/21/2001 "It never happened if there is no memory of it. Human memory is just a record. You can rewrite the record." - Serial Experiments Lain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From banjoken at optonline.net Tue Jun 26 22:16:50 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:16:50 -0000 Subject: The trailer seems to have disappeared In-Reply-To: <9hb0h6+hivn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hb1ki+6df0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21495 As I understand it, AOL had rights to the trailer starting tomorrow. My guess is that somebody saw they had it up early and gave them a warning about possible legal action. I would expect it'll be back to stay tomorrow. I hope so anyway, it looked great! Ken From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 22:32:39 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 2nd Trailer - Spoilers - corrections In-Reply-To: <117.d81ac8.286a60b4@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010626223239.11380.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21496 --- remcwill at aol.com wrote: > Hi, I've been trying to get into both of the links > listed and haven't been > able to - its telling me the links are not good. > Waaa! Is anyone else > having this problem? > > Ruth > I had THREE different links to try and they ALL came up bad. Isn't AOHe** FUN!?! Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bkdelong at pobox.com Tue Jun 26 22:51:58 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:51:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The trailer seems to have disappeared In-Reply-To: <9hb1ki+6df0@eGroups.com> References: <9hb0h6+hivn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010626184957.053d7630@brain-stream.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21497 At 10:16 PM 06/26/2001 +0000, you wrote: >As I understand it, AOL had rights to the trailer starting tomorrow. >My guess is that somebody saw they had it up early and gave them a >warning about possible legal action. I would expect it'll be back to >stay tomorrow. I hope so anyway, it looked great! Doubtful since AOL *IS* Warner bros and vice versa.... You see, AOL has the ability to restrict certain sections of their site to AOL users...but they didn't in the case of the trailer... Someone on AOL - replace the http:// in the URL for the trailer to aol:// and let me know if it works. To everyone else - WE KNOW THE LINK IS NOT WORKING. So we posted screenshots of the trailer and a text-review...soon to come are MP3s of the characters and their voices....please pass along. -- B.K. DeLong Editor-in-Chief The Leaky Cauldron an (unofficial) Harry Potter news site +1.617.877.3271 bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org From driveslucy at aol.com Tue Jun 26 22:53:54 2001 From: driveslucy at aol.com (driveslucy at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:53:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: 2nd Trailer - Spoilers - corrections Message-ID: <54.16647ecb.286a6c82@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21498 In a message dated 6/26/01 5:34:30 PM Central Daylight Time, reanna20 at yahoo.com writes: > --- remcwill at aol.com wrote: > > Hi, I've been trying to get into both of the links listed and haven't > > been > > able to - its telling me the links are not good. Waaa! Is anyone > > else > > having this problem? > > > > Ruth > > > > I can't either. I believe it's because I'm not an AOL member. They have > restricted viewing to only AOL members. However, I think tomorrow other > sites will be showing the trailer as well. > > I imagine by this weekend, somebody will have released the trailer in > Quicktime. At least I hope so; RealPlayer tends to be grainy at times. > > ~Amber > No, it's not that. I'm not able to view it either :( Luce [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jun 27 00:33:07 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:33:07 -0000 Subject: Voldemort, the Scheming Villain In-Reply-To: <9h90tl+taoe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hb9k3+crnq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21499 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., find_sam at h... wrote: > Eric Oppen wrote: > > One thing that struck _me_ about the scene in the cemetery where > Voldie reunites with his "faithful" Death Eaters is that he > apparently has no problem calling them by name. Why bother with > those stupid robes if you're going to be using real names, out loud? It's like the army or the KKK - you make them wear the robes so that you reinforce the idea that they are all part of the same "movement" or army. And, if you call the shots and can tell them what to wear, and your followers do it, then you've also subtly reinforced your dominance over them. > I'm sure that Voldemort's easily smart enough to come up with code > names, which would also make it a lot harder for a traitor to betray > the whole lot of them in one fell swoop. True enough, and we'd have had more fun speculating on who was who. snip > This idea of Voldemort as the Scheming Villain is especially > important in GoF. One of the regularly discussed topics on this list is: Why did Voldemort have to wait until the Last Task until he got Harry to Portkey over to him; why didn't Moody just make Harry's > toothbrush a Portkey? > > The answer, I believe, is that Voldemort is a Scheming Villain. He > wants to succeed, but he wants to scheme, too. He's so sadistic that there's no fun in it for him if he's not scheming. It's hardly going to look impressive to his followers if he killed Harry Potter by transfiguring his toothbrush. OTOH, coming back to power and killing Harry Potter under the noses of the whole wizarding community...*that's* impressive. > For that matter, why not assign a DE to go to Hogwarts and kill Harry outright? I'm sure there are some Voldemort supporters who are not suspected of being Dark Wizards who could manage to stroll into the school grounds one fine day on some sort of fake mission and find a way to attack Harry. Maybe V should start thinking about changing his tactics, especially since Harry always seems to come out ahead whenever he faces Voldemort. Isn't it a sign of insanity if you do the same thing over and over, and expect a different outcome? You'd think V would start thinking about some other way to kill Harry. Send McNair back with his ax...But, OTOH, I think V is vain enough that he will never willingly let someone else bump Harry off. It's got to be him. Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jun 27 00:58:06 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:58:06 -0000 Subject: musings about things, mostly PoA Chapter 17 In-Reply-To: <9h98sg+891g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hbb2u+f5b6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21500 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > I think that the reason many of us like the HP books (aside, of > course, from wanting to be wizards or witches and go to Hogwarts, or > just wanting the world to be a more magical place) is because of > JKR's strong sense of social justice, and the powerful yet never > preachy, often metaphorical, treatment of some important political > and moral issues. > snip > > There is another issue which I believe that JKR treats metaphorically > in PoA. In her summary of Chapter 17, Marianne asks "What stopped > Harry killing Sirius?" I believe that Harry does not kill Sirius, > and later does not allow Sirius and Remus to kill Peter Pettigrew, > because he realizes the moral implications of doing so. I think that > this whole chapter is a metaphorical argument against the death > penalty. I am basing this conclusion not only on the text, but also > on the fact that we know that JKR's political leanings are to the > left and that she once worked for Amnesty International, an > organization which is adamantly and actively opposed to the death > penalty. > > Harry is, at one point, consumed with anger and convinced that he > wants to kill Sirius Black. However, when the opportunity is > presented to him, something prevents him. He "knows" that Sirius > Black killed his parents, is the right-hand man of a mass murderer, > and is the cause of much of the misery and pain he has experienced in > his young life. Yet he pauses, perhaps wondering if he has the right > to kill Sirius, perhaps thinking that maybe it is wrong to kill no > matter what Sirius has done, or even that maybe there is no way of > knowing for sure that Sirius is guilty. Then again, maybe Harry > pauses because he realizes that he's a 13-year old wizard who doesn't > know enough magic to actually kill anyone. Anyway, he pauses long > enough for Crookshanks to get in the way. This ups the ante. Now, > in order to kill Sirius Black, Harry will also have to kill an > innocent cat who has befriended Sirius, which will in turn cause pain > to his close friend Hermione, reminding us (IMHO) that if you kill > one person, you will also injure anyone who cares for him or her. > > And of course it turns out that Sirius Black is not guilty at all, > reminding us that just because everyone believes something doesn't > make it the truth. We find out who is really responsible for James > and Lily's deaths, who is really Voldemort's right-hand man. But > Harry stops Sirius and Remus from killing Wormtail, despite the fact > that he admits his guilt and clearly (again, my opinion) deserves to > die. > > There are several reasons why people are opposed to the death > penalty. (There are also a lot of reasons why people support the > death penalty, which I won't recount here, not because I am biased > but because I am trying to explain only what I think it is that JKR > is trying to say.) Some people feel that any killing is wrong. > Others feel that justice systems do not always reach the correct > conclusions about guilt and innocence, therefore one can never know > for sure if the person executed is truly guilty. Just before Timothy > McVeigh's execution, Helen Prejean (the nun who wrote the book "Dead > Man Walking," who was played by Susan Sarandon in the movie) said > (not her exact words) "The question is not whether Timothy McVeigh > deserves to die but who deserves to kill him." > snip > OK, back to HP. I think that Harry goes through some of the same > thought processes I have just recounted. I think he gains a > tremendous amount of maturity and knowledge in this process, and this > is why I think that this chapter is the most powerful and moving in > what is my favorite HP book so far. I don't think that Harry > necessarily becomes convinced that killing is always wrong ? I think > that probably Harry will, eventually, kill Voldemort. (And good > riddance to him, IMHO.) He just realizes that the best decisions are > not made in anger, and that there are tremendous moral consequences > to killing someone, whether or not they deserve to die. He decides > that although Peter Pettigrew probably deserves to die, Remus and > Sirius do not deserve to have to kill him. > > Well, anyway, that's my point ? that JKR is arguing against the death > penalty in this chapter. I hope my analysis is coherent. > > --Joywitch Beautifully stated. I, too, have similar feelings regarding the death penalty. However, I do think that, if Harry had had his wand in his hand when he originally attacked Sirius, he would have tried to do some harm. Not necessarily kill, but I think he was so consumed with rage that he may have done something in the heat of the moment. I think his hesitation, both before and after Crookshanks intervention, was caused by a combination of uncertainty on how to actually kill someone and the knowledge that action would be wrong. Harry goes through an internal dialog about killing Crookshanks, too. He tries to convince himself that Sirius deserves to die and hears the voice in his head say, "Do it now" but doesn't act on that command. Plus, Sirius tells him he doesn't know the whole story about his parents' deaths. That pushes a button with Harry. It brings up the whole question of who you can believe and the reliability of witnesses. As we discover, the street full of people who saw Sirius kill Peter and the Muggles were wrong. Sometimes, even with the best intentions, people don't see what really happened. Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jun 27 01:12:17 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 01:12:17 -0000 Subject: Jumbled thoughts on how Harry could have killed Sirius In-Reply-To: <9h9fq7+1bnm@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hbbth+mf0i@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21501 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote: > I have often wondered how Harry was going to kill Sirius. The > conclusion I came to, was that Harry has on occassions, let his > emotions get the better of him and performed uncontrolled magic - the > blowing up of Marge is an excellent example of this. Would it > therefore be a natural progression to assume that Harry's anger over > Sirius' alleged betrayal of his parents is an anger which is a huge > magnification of his anger at Aunt Marge? If he can blow up his aunt > as a result of his anger, is it possible that his anger during this > scene, which must be much stronger, could allow him to kill someone, > without knowing exactly how to do so? The fact that he is holding > his wand could serve him to channel his anger, thereby making his > actions more effective. > > I think there is a moment there when it would have been possible. > The difference between this scene and the one with Aunt Marge, is > that (as Joy says) Harry knows that the ramifications of what he is > doing are much further reaching, which gives him pause for thought. > Crookshanks' involvement also hinders him - this delay forces him to > control his anger, therefore stopping him from acting on it. > > I did initially think that the two incidents above were materially > different, as with Aunt Marge it was a very hotheaded emotional > reaction, whereas with Sirius it was a very cold fury which had been > allowed to fester over a period of time. Now, however, I think that > they are more similar than I thought - Harry's anger at Aunt Marge > was a culmination of years of abuse - the one week we see at the > beginning of PoA could be seen as a microcosm of the whole of her > treatment of him over the past years. Harry, until this point had > reined in his anger - controls it until the memory of his parents are > abused which is when he loses control. With Sirius, Harry has had > time to dwell on his alleged betrayal of his parents, and seeing > Sirius in the flesh has the effect of bringing his long-felt anger to > the fore. > > What also interests me is the fact that on the few occassions that > Harry does lose his temper, it is generally because of his parents. > Aunt Marge, Sirius, Snape. Sirius is probably lucky that Harry didn't have his wand in his hand when he first broke free from Hermione and Ron. I think damage would have been done to everyone's favorite convict. And I agree that Crookshank's intervention caused Harry to pause. On the point of Harry's losing his temper when someone verbally trashes his parents. I have wondered if, in the future, we will see Harry have the same reaction people making disparaging comments about Sirius. Harry has not had many adults in his life he can trust and respect and love. If the relationship that's growing between Harry and Sirius continues (no death in book 5, please), and if Sirius is unable to clear his name, Harry can easily be in situations where he will hear people revile Sirius. I think it will be harder and harder for Harry to remain quiet. Marianne From Hermione556 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 27 01:51:06 2001 From: Hermione556 at hotmail.com (Hermione556 at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 01:51:06 -0000 Subject: Newbie! Message-ID: <9hbe6a+8uf7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21502 Just wanted to say hi! I am new to this site - I've been obsessed with HP for ages but just recently started exploring all the fun groups on yahoo...I was misled by far inferior sites and message boards...it's so nice to see a place devoted to ADULT HP fans. I like kids as much as the same person but you can't have an intelligent exchange of ideas with little kids... Ummm - as for me I'm a 21 yr old Boston-area college student, Ron and Hermione are my favorite characters (both seperately and as a couple) I am fascinated by the missing Weasley theories (always wondered about that gap) and despise the "Ron-will-turn-evil" theories (I will be VERY upset if that happens) Anyways thanks for having such a great site! From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 02:02:59 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The trailer seems to have disappeared In-Reply-To: <9hb0h6+hivn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010627020300.99985.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21503 --- Priscilla Spencer wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Phil Jern" > wrote: > > for now....... > > > > Did someone somewhere screw up? Heh... > > It certainly appears that way. On "Keyword: Harry > Potter", all that I > can get is the old trailer. Is anyone else > experiencing this problem? > > Priscilla > > I haven't been able to get it. I keep getting an error message of "Requested file not found. The link you followed may be outdated or inaccurate." Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Jun 27 02:27:27 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:27:27 -0700 Subject: More on Lucius /_CoS_ In-Reply-To: <20010626221331.57084.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010626150429.27177.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010626190433.00d0e100@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21504 At 03:13 PM 6/26/01 -0700, Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: >On a serious note, I can very easily see LM carring >around the diary simply looking for the right mark to >plant it on. After all hadn't he just been in >Knockturn Alley? Trying to sell some Dark Magic >items? So he might also have had it on him as >something he was going sell but changed his mind at >the last minute. I can't see it as a spur-of-the-moment decision, and I also always assumed that planting the diary was the "Important Business Elsewhere" of which he speaks to Mr. Borgin. (Will we ever see Borgin again? I find that an ominous name, too good to be a throw-away, like Daedalus Diggle.) hfakhro at nyc.rr.com wrote: >The question is what are Lucius' real motives? Is it just to get Arthur >Weasley or is it something Harry-related? If Lucius' intention was to >get Ginny and her father in trouble, what does Harry have to do with >that? I suppose he reasoned that TMR would go after Harry... While embarassing Mr. W would have been icing on the cake, I think the #1 objective was to "clone" Voldy 'a la _The Boys From Brazil_, the full-strength "Voldemort Mark 2" being potentially as strong as the original, but with no memory of his downfall and desertion by Lucius and other DE's who pleaded temporary insanity to the Ministry. So my question from way back when still stands -- What would He-Who-Must do if he found out that dear old Lucius tried to bring him back without bringing him back? -- Dave From kabuki_darling at hotmail.com Wed Jun 27 03:06:36 2001 From: kabuki_darling at hotmail.com (Sylph ~*~) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:06:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry never gets anyone presents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21505 I know Harry once got Ron a Chudley Cannons hat...but I never reacall him shopping anywhere. >From: toomanyideas at aol.com >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry never gets anyone presents >Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:23:58 -0000 > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rowanbrookt at y... wrote: > > In the books Harry always gets christmas presents from Ron Hermione, > > rons family and Hagrid but it never mentions him giving any >presents, > > does it? > > >He does buy socks for Dobby, though.. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Jun 27 03:21:05 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:21:05 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort, the Scheming Villain In-Reply-To: <9h90tl+taoe@eGroups.com> References: <004c01c0fc10$939ba020$fbc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010626201105.00e57500@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21506 At 03:52 AM 6/26/01 +0000, find_sam at hotmail.com wrote: >The answer, I believe, is that Voldemort is a Scheming Villain. He >wants to succeed, but he wants to scheme, too. He's so sadistic that >there's no fun in it for him if he's not scheming. This reminds me of the following passage from L. Frank Baum's _Ozma of Oz_: "You are a fool to waste so much time upon these people." "What!" cried [the Nome King], ... "How dare you call me a fool?" "Because I like to speak the truth," said the Steward. "Why didn't you [curse the Oz people] all at once, instead of allowing them to go one by one...?" "Why, you stupid rascal, it is more fun this way," returned the King, "and it serves to keep me amused for a long time." So it would appear that Voldemort and the Nome King are kindred spirits, as far as sadism goes. (As evil overlordism goes, the Nome King is so bumbling that if he were to offer his services to Voldy, he would take one look at the Nome's record and say, "I think I'll stick with Wormtail, thanks." -- Dave From kabuki_darling at hotmail.com Wed Jun 27 03:26:46 2001 From: kabuki_darling at hotmail.com (Sylph ~*~) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:26:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Fate of Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21507 Danika: >Since everyone is analysing the past, I would like, for my first 'BIG' >post, >to ask about people's predictions of the future. >DO you think it is feasible that people will take refuge at Hogwarts when >He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named starts to run amuck? That those who agree with >Dumbldore, and the actions that he proposed that night in Madam Pomfrey's >room, will find shelter in the castle, away from the Dementors and Death >Eaters? Me: I always had a vision of Hogwarts being a new city. After all, we know there are many secret passages known, and many unknown. It's a magic castle and there have always been dark times throughout history. Secret passagesways were everywhere. I always imagine that they may have created even more, and those passageways would lead to undergroud caverns that people would take refuge in. Obviously they would make new passages because there were a lot of peole at Hogwarts *especially Wormtail* that went over to the dark side. I'm also worried that if a DE figures out how to make Moody's magic eye, or takes over Moody's body again, they could probably see all the secret passageways. However Hogwarts is a strong fortress...fairly strong...the teachers, especially the old ones, are loyal; Dumbledore is as powerful as Voldemort and extremely wise; and of course they have Harry :) Sylph _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From kabuki_darling at hotmail.com Wed Jun 27 03:37:25 2001 From: kabuki_darling at hotmail.com (Sylph ~*~) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:37:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Jumbled thoughts on how Harry could have killed Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21508 Catherine wrote: I have often wondered how Harry was going to kill Sirius. The >conclusion I came to, was that Harry has on occassions, let his >emotions get the better of him and performed uncontrolled magic - the >blowing up of Marge is an excellent example of this. Would it >therefore be a natural progression to assume that Harry's anger over >Sirius' alleged betrayal of his parents is an anger which is a huge >magnification of his anger at Aunt Marge? If he can blow up his aunt >as a result of his anger, is it possible that his anger during this >scene, which must be much stronger, could allow him to kill someone, >without knowing exactly how to do so? The fact that he is holding >his wand could serve him to channel his anger, thereby making his >actions more effective. Me: Wow-that's a very good idea, and it made me think of another possibility. Several of the more advanced wizards/witches are seemingly able to perform magic without muttering an incantation. For example. Molly Weasley skinned potatoes and made a dustpan pick them up with a point of the wand. Bill and Charlie battled tables, repaired a table leg, and conjured tablecloths with a flick of the wand. Dumbledore delivered hundreds of sleeping bags with one point. Perhaps all these people had to do was imagine what they wanted, and channel it to the wand. Perhaps all Harry needed to do was imagine Sirius dying, and channel it through his wand! Sylph _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From catlady at wicca.net Wed Jun 27 03:38:31 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:38:31 -0700 Subject: "Dead" Troll - Voldemort as stupid Evil Overlord Message-ID: <3B395537.6B76CD61@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21509 Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: > IIRC, there is no evidence that Ron's spell actually > killed the smelly troll - I thought the troll was > knocked out. That's right. Ron's spell (Levitating the troll's club and hitting him with it) only knocked out the troll, but would have killed a mere human. Btw, at first I typed "Ron's smell knocked out the troll"! Zarleycat wrote: > For that matter, why not assign a DE to go to > Hogwarts and kill Harry outright? The fake Moody was well positioned to kill Harry all school year, possibly under cover of one of the Tasks. > Isn't it a sign of insanity if you do the same thing > over and over, and expect a different outcome? > You'd think V would start thinking about some > other way to kill Harry. I'm sure that Voldemort IS insane. -- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From vderark at bccs.org Wed Jun 27 05:28:10 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:28:10 -0000 Subject: the next best thing to a trip to Diagon Alley Message-ID: <9hbqta+n8mr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21510 Well, okay, so maybe it's not really the next best thing. But I got your attention, anyway. I normally don't make Lexicon announcements here unless I've added something so cool I just can't help myself. Which I just did. I have spent the last two days researching Diagon Alley. I've been noting every clue about each shop -- where it is in relationship to other shops, which ones are mentioned but not named, and so on. Armed with all my notes, I worked this evening on creating a map of Diagon Alley, with each shop that appears in the books placed as close as possible to where it "really" is. And it's a pretty darn cool map. I just uploaded it to the Wizard's Atlas under the Atlas of Wizarding Britain. You'll find the Wizard's Atlas in the Wizarding World section of the Lexicon. Now this brings up something that I've been struggling with. Is this map canon? True, as much as humanly possible it places things according to the official word in the books, but there was no way to create a map like this without a liberal amount of guesswork. So no, it's not canon. But then what is it? Semi-canon? Canon-ish? Oh well. Now today I caught a glimpse of Diagon Alley in the second trailer and I am even more excited to see the film. (My wife and I just made a date to see A.I. Friday afternoon, mostly to see the HP trailer.) I wonder if they researched their version of Diagon Alley as closely as I researched this map? Bet not. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon home of the new map of Diagon Alley http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon From corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 05:55:57 2001 From: corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com (Doreen Rich) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:55:57 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldron stills ?? Message-ID: <9hbshd+q4if@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21511 In the Leaky Cauldron stills, the Professor Dumbledore's picture says under it, "Richard Smith as Professor Albus Dumbledore (Picture courtesy of AOL)" Did I miss something? Or is that an error? Doreen, cornfused as usual From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed Jun 27 03:22:55 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 03:22:55 -0000 Subject: musings about things, mostly PoA Chapter 17 In-Reply-To: <9hbb2u+f5b6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hbjif+lgh7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21512 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote: > snip > > > > There is another issue which I believe that JKR treats > metaphorically > > in PoA. In her summary of Chapter 17, Marianne asks "What stopped > > Harry killing Sirius?" I believe that Harry does not kill Sirius, > > and later does not allow Sirius and Remus to kill Peter Pettigrew, > > because he realizes the moral implications of doing so. I think > that > > this whole chapter is a metaphorical argument against the death > > penalty. I am basing this conclusion not only on the text, but > also > > on the fact that we know that JKR's political leanings are to the > > left and that she once worked for Amnesty International, an > > organization which is adamantly and actively opposed to the death > > penalty. > > > > Harry is, at one point, consumed with anger and convinced that he > > wants to kill Sirius Black. However, when the opportunity is > > presented to him, something prevents him. He "knows" that Sirius > > Black killed his parents, is the right-hand man of a mass murderer, > > and is the cause of much of the misery and pain he has experienced > in > > his young life. Yet he pauses, perhaps wondering if he has the > right > > to kill Sirius, perhaps thinking that maybe it is wrong to kill no > > matter what Sirius has done, or even that maybe there is no way of > > knowing for sure that Sirius is guilty. Then again, maybe Harry > > pauses because he realizes that he's a 13-year old wizard who > doesn't > > know enough magic to actually kill anyone And there's also a Shakespearean parallel: in Hamlet III,iii, the Prince is prepared to wreak vengeance against Claudius, but hesitates when he finds him praying: HAMLET Now might I do it pat, now he is praying; And now I'll do't. And so he goes to heaven; And so am I revenged. That would be scann'd: A villain kills my father; and for that, I, his sole son, do this same villain send To heaven. O, this is hire and salary, not revenge. He took my father grossly, full of bread; With all his crimes broad blown, as flush as May; And how his audit stands who knows save heaven? But in our circumstance and course of thought, 'Tis heavy with him: and am I then revenged, To take him in the purging of his soul, When he is fit and season'd for his passage? No! Up, sword; and know thou a more horrid hent: When he is drunk asleep, or in his rage, Or in the incestuous pleasure of his bed; At gaming, swearing, or about some act That has no relish of salvation in't; Then trip him, that his heels may kick at heaven, And that his soul may be as damn'd and black As hell, whereto it goes. My mother stays: This physic but prolongs thy sickly days. "Thus conscience doth make cowards of us all" - the difference is that Hamlet's hesitation has catastrophic consequences; none of the other deaths in the play would have occurred if Hamlet had dispatched Claudius on the spot. OTOH, Harry's hesitation has (at least so far) entirely fortunate consequences - we might well imagine the effects on Harry had he killed Sirius only to later learn of his innocence. - CMC From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Wed Jun 27 07:02:02 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:02:02 -0000 Subject: new (?) thoughts about the Dursleys Message-ID: <9hc0da+3csc@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21513 I've been working like a house elf this morning, going through the archives and finding that there has been quite a lot of Dursley discussion going on. Anyway, the fact that it seems to be confirmed that Arabella Figg *is* the elderly, cat-loving Mrs. Figg who occasionally baby-sits Harry, cast a new light upon our least favourite chracters: It all comes up to the question: What did Dumbledore write in his letter he left at the Dursleys' doorstep together with baby Harry? Who is in possession of the letter right now? Did the Dursleys burn it, or keep it? Dumbledore must have been giving them explanations and instructions, as it was vital to keep Harry safe until he was old enough to enter Hogwarts. He must have told them that Harry was safe under their roof (WHY???- did he put some spell on the house?) and that, if they went somewhere else, he had to stay with Mrs. Figg. The Dursleys' behaviour to Harry can never be really justified, but I think we should look at some parts of it from a slightly different angle: They didn't take him anywhere because it wouldn't have been safe. (What about school, though? Could there have been some undercover wizard to look after Harry?) Closing him in the cupboard and humiliating him certainly wasn't necessary, but maybe Dumbledore's instruction was: "Don't let him become aware, under whatever circumstance, that he is a wizard". That would explain why they punished him most when he did "abnormal things", like making his hair grow or jumping up on the school roof. Any comments? Susanna From mediaphen at hotmail.com Wed Jun 27 07:54:39 2001 From: mediaphen at hotmail.com (mediaphen at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:54:39 -0000 Subject: the missing Weasley child In-Reply-To: <20010626135832.64894.qmail@web14703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hc3fv+9f2v@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21514 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Susanne Schmid wrote: > Hi, Martin, > great post!!! And great theory. An evil Weasley-son > would certainly spice up the whole thing. > My only argument against it: I don't think Durmstrang > has always been the haven of Dark Arts- don't you > think that Karkaroff brought about a change when he > became Headmaster? > Now, Karkaroff seems rather of the Voldemort > generation, maybe he was a classmate of > Riddle/Voldemort at Hogwarts? Therefore, he couldn't > possibly have become Headmaster of Durmstrang before > V's downfall (before, he would have been to young, I > suppose) which brings us to 14 years ago. Supposing > that you enter Durmstrang at the same age as Hogwarts, > the "evil Weasley" would now be 25 which I think is > too young to fit into the picture. > But he could have been second or third- born, so that > would make Percy the first attempt at another child > after the evil one. > > Susanna/pigwidgeon37 > Hi everybody! OK, I can be flexible. How about this even more evil (and possibly more plasuible?) explanation: At young age, Bad Weasley showed great magical talent, and this was discovered by a nearby dark wizard. He took it upon him to train him as a pupil of his (the classic master-apprentice scenario), focusung in the Dark Arts. So, he was at young age destined to be a really, really, dark wizard, and A&M were quite displeased with that, and denied him. And he didn't go to Hogwarts. Or Durmstrang. Or Beauxbatons. Just a thought. Martin Wand: Maple/mahogny, 4 ft, sheeps-guts Oh, sorry, that was my guitar, I'll have to get back with some proper wand specifications... From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 11:49:23 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:49:23 -0000 Subject: new (?) thoughts about the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <9hc0da+3csc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hch83+jopl@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21515 Actually, I'd have to disagree with one part of your post: The letter must have clearly said to inform Harry of his powers because Hagrid flipped when he learned of the fact that he didn't know what he was. From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Jun 27 13:24:41 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:24:41 -0000 Subject: new (?) thoughts about the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <9hch83+jopl@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hcmqp+5rv4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21516 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meg Rose" wrote: > Actually, I'd have to disagree with one part of your post: > The letter must have clearly said to inform Harry of his powers > because Hagrid flipped when he learned of the fact that he didn't > know what he was.> Maybe the letter was vague, and said something like "Keep him hidden from the wizarding world", but didn't say that the Dursleys should or should not tell Harry he is a wizard. This is actually something that has speculated on at length. Some people believe that Dumbledore put a spell on the Dursleys to make sure they kept Harry, and others think that the Dursleys were simply too terrified of Dumbledore and the wizarding community in general to deny Harry a home with them. Whatever the letter said, I'm sure it wasn't clear enough about how the Dursleys should treat Harry. That's why I always call them the dreadful Dursleys. --jenny from ravenclaw********************************************** From JamiDeise at aol.com Wed Jun 27 13:50:30 2001 From: JamiDeise at aol.com (JamiDeise at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:50:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] new (?) thoughts about the Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21517 In a message dated 6/27/2001 6:09:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it writes: << The Dursleys' behaviour to Harry can never be really justified, but I think we should look at some parts of it from a slightly different angle: They didn't take him anywhere because it wouldn't have been safe. (What about school, though? Could there have been some undercover wizard to look after Harry?)>> I doubt it. They didn't seem to me to really care about Harry's safety. I don't think Dumbledore's letter -- and oh how I wish we could someday read it! (and I also got the impression that there were two letters; one for the Dursleys, and one for Harry to read when he was older ... or maybe just one letter with two parts) -- was too alarmist ... after all, this baby just destroyed Voldemort; how could any other wizard possibly harm him? >>Closing him in the cupboard and humiliating him certainly wasn't necessary, but maybe Dumbledore's instruction was: "Don't let him become aware, under whatever circumstance, that he is a wizard".<< I doubt it. Hagrid had expected Harry to know everything, after all. >> That would explain why they punished him most when he did "abnormal things", like making his hair grow or jumping up on the school roof. >> I believe those punishments were in the hope that they'd teach him not to use his magic. Whether or not Mrs. Figg turns out to be a witch, it still doesn't explain why Dumbledore insisted that Harry return to the Dursleys at the end of GoF before joining the Weasleys. After all, why would one witch offer more protection than a houseful of wizards and witches ... unless Mrs. Figg has something she needs to give or tell Harry at this point in the epic. I'm also wondering whether a yearly dose of the Dursleys somehow provides Harry with a kind of innoculation ... after all, Petunia, as Lily's sister, is her closest genetic match ... could exposure to her somehow reinforce the protection Harry received when Lily died for him? I'm probably really grasping now ... Jami From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 14:09:03 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The trailer seems to have disappeared In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010626184957.053d7630@brain-stream.com> Message-ID: <20010627140903.52858.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21518 --- "B.K. DeLong" wrote: > Someone on AOL - replace the http:// in the URL for > the trailer to aol:// > and let me know if it works. > > B.K. DeLong > Editor-in-Chief > The Leaky Cauldron > an (unofficial) Harry Potter news site > +1.617.877.3271 I gave it a shot and got an error message of "Invalid Resource Identifier" Sorry. Danette Pheonix feather, maple, 8 1/2 inches __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 14:35:17 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] new (?) thoughts about the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <9hc0da+3csc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010627143517.52019.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21519 Susanna, I never thought about it until now. However, it did appear to me that they were trying to keep Harry from Hogwarts..and acted like they had never heard of the place. Perhaps, Dumbledore made no mention of Hogwarts in the letter. For legal purposes only, I'm assuming that the Dursley's did keep the letter. My reasons for believing this are simple: To my knowledge the closest thing that the Potters had to a will indicated that if anything were to happen to them Sirius would be granted custody. Therefore, if they had a letter telling them to keep Harry they couldn't get in trouble at all. However, I doubt they were told anything about Sirius Black. And part of me also wonders if they were lied to about other living relatives. It seems very odd that he would have no living relatives..I mean when this is disscussed we seem to focus on LIly, however, James had a family too. Where are the other Potters? --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mariannayus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 15:09:11 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Jumbled thoughts on how Harry could have killed Sirius In-Reply-To: <9hbbth+mf0i@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010627150911.75166.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21520 > On the point of Harry's losing his temper when > someone verbally > trashes his parents. I have wondered if, in the > future, we will see > Harry have the same reaction people making > disparaging comments about > Sirius. Harry has not had many adults in his life he > can trust and > respect and love. If the relationship that's > growing between Harry > and Sirius continues (no death in book 5, please), > and if Sirius is > unable to clear his name, Harry can easily be in > situations where he > will hear people revile Sirius. I think it will be > harder and harder > for Harry to remain quiet. > > Marianne > > However, I think he will remain quiet: otherwise he will be betraying Sirius. And not only is it easier to control oneself when one gets older, Harry demonstrated he can control himself when necessary (if nothing else, living with the Dursleys would have taught him that). Harry is reckless to *personal* consequences when someone bashes his parents (e.g. going for Sirius even though he is much smaller than SB and Sirius is supposed to be an unhinged murderer, or going for Aunt Marge even though that would get Dursleys after him as never before). I don't recall him endangering anyone else with these outbursts. Lily and James are dead, they won't be endangered, but Sirius is alive, and very much will be. Marsha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From joym999 at aol.com Wed Jun 27 15:40:29 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:40:29 -0000 Subject: trailer Message-ID: <9hcupd+62ib@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21521 The new trailer is available today (wed June 27) only to AOL members, but starting tomorrow will be available to everyone on various websites including Netscape. It is cool. November can not come soon enough for me. Who is going to join me at the Uptown Cinema in Washington, DC (the only Cinerama theatre in the U.S.) for the premiere. Should we get in line now? --Joywitch From bkdelong at pobox.com Wed Jun 27 15:45:32 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:45:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer In-Reply-To: <9hcupd+62ib@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010627114414.05592530@pop.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21522 At 03:40 PM 06/27/2001 +0000, you wrote: >The new trailer is available today (wed June 27) only to AOL members Actually, it's available to everyone: http://bb1.stream.aol.com:8080/ramgen/demand/harrypotter/hp2trlr_ga.rm if it's blurry, I have directions on how to download the whole thing: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_06_24_archive.html#4265763 -- B.K. DeLong The Harry Potter Galleries http://www.hpgalleries.com/ Editor-in-Chief The Leaky Cauldron News section bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ +1.617.877.3271 From sdrk1 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 17:06:47 2001 From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:06:47 -0000 Subject: new (?) thoughts about the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <20010627143517.52019.qmail@web10903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hd3r7+rpcr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21523 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > I never thought about it until now. However, it did appear to me that they were trying to keep Harry from Hogwarts..and acted like they had never heard of the place. Perhaps, Dumbledore made no mention of Hogwarts in the letter. > Doesn't Petunia, in one of her rants somewhere say something like, "Lily got one of those letters, and then went off to that school and she came home turning teapots into mice -- my parents were so proud to have a witch in the family. BUt I saw her for what she was -- a freak" (I can't look this up at the moment) My take was that the Durselys took Harry in, and this is awful, to beat out his "abnormality" out of him -- I get the impression that Petunia was jealous of Lily and is quite bitter at the wizarding world -- so she wanted to deprive HArry of his legacy as revenge. I think they either hid or destroyed the letter, and hoped that would be that. I really doubt they know about Mrs. Figg, they were probably just happy to have a reliable (maybe even free) sitter, if she's kind of wierd, smells like cabbages, and makes Harry uncomfortable, all the better in thier opinion. My question is, if Mrs. Figg is the right Figg, why didn't she ever let it slip to Harry OR tell Dumbledore the kind of abuse HArry is suffering? >Where are the other Potters? And what happened to those O-so-supportive Lily/Petunia parents? Stephanie From joym999 at aol.com Wed Jun 27 17:29:31 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:29:31 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest Message-ID: <9hd55r+706l@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21524 I have decided to let each contest run for about 10 days, rather than just 4 days, in order to give people more time to respond. Therefore, this weeks contest (#7) is still open -- the deadline for submissions in next Tuesday, July 3, midnight EST. Contest #7 asks for speculation on which people you think are really wizards and witches. (My submission is Red Sox pitcher Pedro Martinez.) More detail can be found in message # 21321. --Joywitch From pbarhug at earthlink.net Wed Jun 27 17:41:40 2001 From: pbarhug at earthlink.net (Pam Hugonnet) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:41:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer References: <9hcupd+62ib@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B3A1AD4.95EC6BC1@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21525 joym999 at aol.com wrote: > The new trailer is available today (wed June 27) only to AOL members, > but starting tomorrow will be available to everyone on various > websites including Netscape. It is cool. November can not come soon > enough for me. Who is going to join me at the Uptown Cinema in > Washington, DC (the only Cinerama theatre in the U.S.) for the > premiere. Should we get in line now? > > --Joywitch > You can count me in. The Uptown often begins advance sales 4 to 8 weeks in advance; I am so excited. Since this is in danger of being an off-topic post, let me get some Harry content: I was impressed by the acting skills of the kids playing the Trio. I think Emma Watson does a brilliant job in giving Hermione a sniffy-bossy tone and that Rupert Grint has a great wry/dry note in his voice that is essential for Ron. Off to watch the trailer again, drpam who wants to be Madame Hooch when she grows up. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From michelleapostolides at lineone.net Wed Jun 27 18:03:15 2001 From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:03:15 +0100 Subject: FILM : Trailer 2 comments ( SPOILERS ? ) Message-ID: <016201c0ff33$72e37c60$44407bd5@tmeltcds> No: HPFGUIDX 21526 Whoa. Amazing... S P O I L E R S P A C E Well, I liked it. I am now soo excited. HPfGU-Londoners, we are going to meet up to see the film, I hope ? I like the fact that Neville is in the trailer. The thing that I don't like is Maggie Smith's accent. She sounds like she's from Northern Ireland. Or is that deliberate ? And is it me or does Quirell look like James Dreyfus ( The Think Blue Line and Gimme, Gimme ) ? I know it's not him but.... I like Ollivander - and the effect when Harry holds his wand for the first time. Ohh, getting all wriggly and excited already !! Michelle From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Wed Jun 27 18:07:58 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:07:58 -0000 Subject: new (?) thoughts about the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <9hc0da+3csc@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hd7du+2r6r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21527 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pigwidgeon37 at y... wrote: > Any comments? I think Dumbledore was very thorough in his letter. No doubt, Dumbledore assumed Petunia, being Lily's sister, was familiar to the wizarding world. For all we know, Dumbledore might have included instructions to contact this person or that person if they had questions. Maybe Prof. McGonagall interceded when they returned to Hogwarts. Remember she did observe the Dursley's for a day and was shocked that Dumbledore left Harry with them. Or maybe the letter contained instructions for the Dursleys to stay in contact with Dumbledore and they didn't. Arabella Figg was one of the "old crowd" during the Voldemort years. Maybe she was sent by Dumbledore to live incognito near the Dursleys to guard Harry in the event the DEs attempted to retaliate against Harry and to keep Dumbledore apprised of the situation. I wouldn't be terribly surprized if attempts were made upon Harry and the Dursleys in the early days. As for the Dursleys, I can't excuse them for their poor treatment of Harry. However, I can see why they kept Harry unaware of his wizard heritage and why they even attempted to "squash the magic out of him". Think of it, you find your baby nephew on the doorstep. A letter informs you that this is your nephew Harry. His parents have been killed by Voldemort, a powerful dark wizard bent on ruling the world. The bads news: Voldemort tried to kill Harry too. The good news: he couldn't kill Harry but Harry managed to kill or weaken him. It would scare me! I would think "why did this dark wizard want to kill a baby?", "does this baby have any powers?", "will other dark wizards try to kill Harry?", "will other dark wizards try to kill me because I have Harry?". I suppose the Dursleys thought that Harry's magical powers were dangerous to himself and to them because magic is the reason why Lily and James were killed. If Harry didn't use magic, then no one will try to kill or harm him. Keeping him ignorant of his magical heritage will keep him ignorant of his magic powers. I bet the Dursleys were hoping too that Harry had no powers and were very frightened that he did (growing his hair back, apparating to the roof of the school). The Dursley's methods were totally wrong. But I think deep down in their hearts they thought they were doing the right thing for Harry and for themselves. As strange as it may sound I think Petunia does love Harry in her own way and I think she loved Lily too. If she didn't love Lily, Petunia wouldn't have been upset that she married James, whom she thought was a good-for-nothing. you only get upset about people making what you think are bad choices if you care for them. However, her fear about magic manifests as anger directed toward the two magical people in her family, Lily and Harry, because her fear is just too great for her to cope properly. Vernon probably behaves that way because he feels Harry's presence in their home is a threat to their safety and probably because he's been influenced by Petunia to the degree that he too is scared of magic. But I still have to hand it to Vernon: he went to extraordinary lengths to keep Harry away from Hogwarts. It can be easily said that he did that because he hates Harry so much he wanted to keep Harry aways from something that might be good for Harry. But considering his family's experience with magic (Lily's death by Voldemort), magic isn't good. That's why I can't definitely say Vernon and Petunia hate Harry. If they really hated Harry, they would have turned him over to Hagrid immediately and let him live in an environment they think is bad. They wouldn't have gone to those lengths to keep him away from that bad environment. Milz From jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net Wed Jun 27 18:11:44 2001 From: jennyemike-1 at mediaone.net (Jennye & Michael Woolf) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:11:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Revisiting the Ron as 7th son thing In-Reply-To: <9hbshd+q4if@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c0ff34$a069e290$d8094a42@Dexter> No: HPFGUIDX 21528 I was just browsing AOL's pics from the movie and the accompanying info on characters and the actors who play them. For Ron, it says "Ron is the youngest of 7 Weasley brothers and best friend to Harry Potter." Mistake or accidental slip up? You decide. *g* Jennye [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 18:25:41 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Revisiting the Ron as 7th son thing In-Reply-To: <000001c0ff34$a069e290$d8094a42@Dexter> Message-ID: <20010627182541.54446.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21529 LOL...interesting... Accidental slip-up....but then again I can't see how that could really be accidental..considering Ginny is the seventh child, not Ron...very interesting. I wouldn't hold to much stock in it..just cuz JKR didn't write the bio..atleast I don't think she did. MElanie --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 27 18:55:24 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:55:24 -0000 Subject: Revisiting the Ron as 7th son (and Snape as Vampire) In-Reply-To: <20010627182541.54446.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hda6s+sseh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21530 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > LOL...interesting... > > Accidental slip-up....but then again I can't see how that could really be accidental..considering Ginny is the seventh child, not Ron...very interesting. I wouldn't hold to much stock in it..just cuz JKR didn't write the bio..atleast I don't think she did. > > MElanie I've largely ignored (sorry!) all this speculation about Ron being a 7th son of a 7th son before, mainly because I don't think that Ron is a Seer, or has 6th sense, whatever. But I just had a thought that if Arthur Weasley was also a 7th son, then surely we would have heard something about the rest of his family by now. Unless most of his family was wiped out during the VW1, then surely there would be other Weasley cousins at Hogwarts, unless Arthur and Molly started having children much later than is usual. This seems unlikely considering that it is extremely probable (if not a certainty) that they have been together since their time at Hogwarts. Of course this can be explained away by saying perhaps the other Weasleys all live abroad etc., but this doesn't seem very likely, given Ron's ignorance over other wizarding schools etc. Anyway, I think that this is one of the less plausible speculations running at the moment. BTW: Pippin has really got me going about this Snape the Vampire thing. I think JKR is always very deliberate in her descriptions, and the repetition here does seem very pointed. As does Lupin saying to Snape that he needs a word with Ron and Harry about their vampire essay. I am reluctantly giving this whole idea more credence than I did originally. Confusedly, Catherine From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 20:13:02 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:13:02 -0000 Subject: Final Blazon w/discussion, LONG, mostly for Steve (was Re: Heraldry Class In-Reply-To: <3B340B12.BD1BA18A@texas.net> Message-ID: <9hdeoe+6t87@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21531 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > > > Actually I have a tincture question. (I haven't seen this coat of > > arms yet but will be getting Brit editions soon). Are the coats color > > pictures? If not what's the blazon? > > Thanks. > > (Amanda's excellent discussion snipped) > > Anyone who actually read all of this gets ten points to their House. > Congratulations. You may win someday on a game show because of me. I do > expect a cut. > > --Amanda Binns > While listening to the Fry tapes, I came across a decription of the Hogwarts coat of arms in the text. It occurs in Chapter 15 of GoF, when the school is waiting for the arrival of the Beauxbatons and Durmstrang delegations. It is here that the Beaucbatons coat of atrms is also described. Haggridd From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 20:36:35 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:36:35 -0000 Subject: Welcome, newbie! In-Reply-To: <9hbe6a+8uf7@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hdg4j+k2ni@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21532 Wecome to the group. You'll find more sophisticated (well, sometimes) discussion of Harry Potter here than you'll find anywhere else. Many of us are adult professionals. You're not alone in Boston. Sinead Clements is a BU student very active in the group; she's even come to New York for two or our get-togethers in the city. Read some of the great fanfiction written by members of this group. Ebony Elizabeth Thomas (Detroit schoolteacher) has written the incomparable Trouble in Paradise, a book-length work; Lori Summer's Paradigm of Uncertainty, another book-length fic; and may I humbly suggest my own, very short, "The Granger Interview" and "The Letter?" You can have a lot of fun here. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Hermione556 at h... wrote: > Just wanted to say hi! I am new to this site - I've been obsessed > with HP for ages but just recently started exploring all the fun > groups on yahoo...I was misled by far inferior sites and message > boards...it's so nice to see a place devoted to ADULT HP fans. I > like kids as much as the same person but you can't have an > intelligent exchange of ideas with little kids... > > Ummm - as for me I'm a 21 yr old Boston-area college student, Ron and > Hermione are my favorite characters (both seperately and as a couple) > I am fascinated by the missing Weasley theories (always wondered > about that gap) and despise the "Ron-will-turn-evil" theories (I will > be VERY upset if that happens) > > Anyways thanks for having such a great site! From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 20:49:01 2001 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:49:01 -0000 Subject: "Dead" Troll - Voldemort as stupid Evil Overlord In-Reply-To: <3B395537.6B76CD61@wicca.net> Message-ID: <9hdgrt+ikrd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21533 Rita:"Zarleycat wrote: For that matter, why not assign a DE to go to Hogwarts and kill Harry outright?' The fake Moody was well positioned to kill Harry all school year, possibly under cover of one of the Tasks." You could say this is related to what Roger Ebert, the film critic, calls "The Fallacy of the Talking Killer", having to do with murderers who by gloating give the hero enough time to get out of whatever jam he's in. In tis case, though, Voldemort wanted Harry alive for his little revival ritual. A dead Harry wouldn't be any good. From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Wed Jun 27 21:05:39 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 21:05:39 -0000 Subject: Dobby's history Message-ID: <9hdhr3+utev@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21534 I just had a wild idea that perhaps Dobby (or his father/mother) had previously belonged to the Potters and was relocated to the Malfoys after the Godrics Hollow massacre. James Potter was from an old wizarding family and might have owned a house elf? Could this explain why Dobby is such a fan of Harry? Florence From editor at texas.net Wed Jun 27 21:44:51 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:44:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010627114414.05592530@pop.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3B3A53D3.CEBEFBA6@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21535 "B.K. DeLong" wrote: > At 03:40 PM 06/27/2001 +0000, you wrote: > >The new trailer is available today (wed June 27) only to AOL members > > Actually, it's available to everyone: > > http://bb1.stream.aol.com:8080/ramgen/demand/harrypotter/hp2trlr_ga.rm Oh, bless you. Blurry, but the audio came through. I liked it all, but I must once again reiterate, with apologies for those of you who've been listening to me sing Alan Rickman's praises since before the REST of you were converted and stopped sniping about his age---that man has the most amazing voice, and control of it. That "celebrity" line was a caress. How *can* the man sound so threatening with such a, well, silky voice? --Amanda, happy now (although your other link with directions on downloading gives me a "contains no data" box, oh, well) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bkdelong at pobox.com Wed Jun 27 21:49:44 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:49:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer In-Reply-To: <3B3A53D3.CEBEFBA6@texas.net> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010627114414.05592530@pop.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010627174746.04d03ec0@pop.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21536 At 04:44 PM 06/27/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Oh, bless you. Blurry, but the audio came through. I liked it all, but I >must once again reiterate, with apologies for those of you who've been >listening to me sing Alan Rickman's praises since before the REST of you >were converted and stopped sniping about his age---that man has the most >amazing voice, and control of it. That "celebrity" line was a caress. >How *can* the man sound so threatening with such a, well, silky voice? Follow the instructions on my site to download a copy of it....the full copy (though 10MB) is small but crystal clear: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_06_24_archive.html#4265763 Tomorrow the main Web site should have 3 levels of hi-res Quicktimes, we hope. -- B.K. DeLong The Harry Potter Galleries http://www.hpgalleries.com/ Editor-in-Chief The Leaky Cauldron News section bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ +1.617.877.3271 From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 22:08:16 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: trailer In-Reply-To: <3B3A53D3.CEBEFBA6@texas.net> Message-ID: <20010627220816.84527.qmail@web10905.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21537 Oh my...[happy sigh] Can I just say that I simply *ADORE* Ron? Well, Rupert-as-Ron. He is just so cute and absolutely PERFECT! When he asks about the scar and then sighs admiringly, "Wicked!"...when Hermione says they're going to get expelled and he replies in exasperation, "She has *got* to get her priorities sorted out."...[sigh] He's perfect. I couldn't design a more perfect Ron! THe rest of the trailer seemed great, though very blurry. The audio seems fabulous. I'm not sure if I can manage to wait until November! Heck, I'm not sure if I can manage to wait until Friday when I can see the trailer on the big screen! Andrea 7 1/2 inches, maple, phoenix feather ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 22:23:39 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trailer Message-ID: <20010627222339.96603.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21538 A BIG THANK YOU TO B.K.LONG! My boys and I just watched the new trailer and WOW! We loved what we saw and November just can't get here fast enough! That was a great surprise and we THANK YOU! Wanda the Very Happy Witch and Her Merry Band of Very Happy Muggles __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From nosillaps13 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 22:27:48 2001 From: nosillaps13 at yahoo.com (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:27:48 -0000 Subject: Dobby's history In-Reply-To: <9hdhr3+utev@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hdml4+odjp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21539 Florence wrote: > I just had a wild idea that perhaps Dobby (or his father/mother) had > previously belonged to the Potters and was relocated to the Malfoys > after the Godrics Hollow massacre. > > James Potter was from an old wizarding family and might have owned a > house elf? Could this explain why Dobby is such a fan of Harry? Maybe, but I doubt it. Dobby says he is a fan of Harry's because Harry's defeat of V. changed the way house-elves were treated, Dobby himself being the exception. And in the 4th book, doesn't Winky say her mother and her grandmother both served the Crouches? I think house-elves probably get one family (or school or business, like Hogwarts) and that family serves it until they're released or fired. Allison From reanna20 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 27 23:01:51 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: trailer In-Reply-To: <3B3A53D3.CEBEFBA6@texas.net> Message-ID: <20010627230151.47487.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21540 --- Amanda Lewanski wrote: > Oh, bless you. Blurry, but the audio came through. I liked it all, > but I must once again reiterate, with apologies for those of you > who've been listening to me sing Alan Rickman's praises since before > the REST of you were converted and stopped sniping about his > age---that man has the most amazing voice, and control of it. That > "celebrity" line was a caress. How *can* the man sound so threatening > with such a, well, silky voice? I most emphatically agree with you! Alan Rickman was the *perfect* choice as Snape, both in look and voice. I must say that when I read the books, I *hated* Snape with a passion. However after reading some fanfics and seeing that Rickman as Snape, my icy demeanor towards the character is melting, melting, melting... It was really nice to be able to hear people's voices (besides Hagrid and Dumbledore) in this trailer. I remember thinking when I saw the first trailer 'What do these people sound like?'. Now I know! I'm definitely more approving of Emma as Hermione and Rupert as Ron. Wow, Diagon Alley! What they've done looks fantastic! Ooo, if only I could go to Ollivander's. I didn't like the CG broom flying shots. They just didn't look real at all. But that's to be expected I suppose, there's only so much the studios can do with blue screens and computer special effects. Regardless, I'm still *extremely* interested in seeing how they're going to do the Quidditch matches. Now that is going to be something... ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/21/2001 "It never happened if there is no memory of it. Human memory is just a record. You can rewrite the record." - Serial Experiments Lain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From potterlovingash at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 00:07:26 2001 From: potterlovingash at hotmail.com (Ashley Kelly) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 00:07:26 -0000 Subject: USA Today Potter Article and Pictures Message-ID: <9hdsfu+79tq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21541 Well, I never ever post but I came across an article in USA Today that has pictures out of the trailer including the shot with Harry showing off his scar. And... if you go to movies.usatoday.com you can see the awesome shots yourself in perfect focus. Sorry I don't know how to put the link into the post... I'll learn someday. Well, back to lurkdom. Enjoy everyone. Ashley K. (potterlovingash) From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 00:29:03 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma Moniz) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 00:29:03 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: trailer In-Reply-To: <20010627230151.47487.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hdtof+7vnu@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21542 Amber wrote: > I most emphatically agree with you! Alan Rickman was the *perfect* choice as Snape, both in look and voice. I must say that when I read the books, I *hated* Snape with a passion. However after reading some fanfics and seeing that Rickman as Snape, my icy demeanor towards the character is melting, melting, melting... I'm beginning to warm up to Snape as well. Gods, that voice...just dead sexy...he purrs those lines and is so meanacing...*wibbles and melts* Never thought I'd be a Snape fan... > It was really nice to be able to hear people's voices (besides Hagrid and Dumbledore) in this trailer. I remember thinking when I saw the first trailer 'What do these people sound like?'. Now I know! I'm definitely more approving of Emma as Hermione and Rupert as Ron. I keep seeing my name (Emma) popping up. Makes a girl's head turn. I like Emma as Hermione, and Rupert as Ron...just wicked. And she shots I saw of Draco have definite potential. However, I think I'm going to have to re-read SS/PS just to make sure I'm recalling everything. But the thing that jumps out at me is this: wasn't Neville the one who couldn't make his broom rise? And wasn't Harry's broom delivered wrapped so that some people (cough*Draco*cough) wouldn't make a fuss about a first year getting his own broom? Or am I just going crazy again? ~Emma Gryffindor 8" Mahogany with unicorn hair From bugganeer at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 00:40:59 2001 From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 00:40:59 -0000 Subject: USA Today Link In-Reply-To: <9hdsfu+79tq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hduer+2coq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21543 http://www.usatoday.com/life/2001-06-27-potter.htm They are very nice stills and there are links for more info. Thanks to Ash for delurking, Bugg. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ashley Kelly" wrote: > Well, I never ever post but I came across an article in USA Today that has pictures out of the trailer including the shot with Harry showing off his scar. And... if you go to movies.usatoday.com you can see the awesome shots yourself in perfect focus. Sorry I don't know how to put the link into the post... I'll learn someday. Well, back to lurkdom. Enjoy everyone. > Ashley K. (potterlovingash) From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com Thu Jun 28 01:03:36 2001 From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 21:03:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: trailer Message-ID: <12f.a4ed6b.286bdc68@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21544 On the USA Today website, they show several pictures from the trailer. Is it just me, or does it bother anyone else that they moved Harry's scar from the middle of his foredead to above his right eyebrow? Why couldn't they have kept it in the middle? I dunno, go check out the pictures. It looks like it's more to the side and they even mention something about it being moved. It's www.movies.usatoday.com ***Dixie Malfoy*** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saitaina at wizzards.net Thu Jun 28 01:04:09 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:04:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: trailer References: <20010627230151.47487.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006b01c0ff6e$3d63a5c0$bb4e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 21545 Actually, I do belive they're using the green screen for this which leaves more room for movement, and we did only see one on-broom sceen (besides Neville's floating) so it may look better. From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Fri Jun 22 22:11:32 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:11:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Teaching In-Reply-To: <9gul2b+npbe@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9h0fqk+cfee@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21546 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" wrote: > Rosmerta wrote: > >if he *is* the most powerful wizard we see in the books, > what's he doing running a boarding school--> > > By staying headmaster, Dumbledore has a knowledge > of hundreds of young wizards. When he needs something > he can choose who is best suited for the task. He has > contacts working for many area of the wizarding world. > This includes MoM and Gringotts. He has made more > impact on wizard society than Fudge. I would do more > for a teacher/mentor than for a major or police chief. > Dumbledore knows where he is needed and is powerful > in many ways. > > Bugg > Dumbledore friend and supporter. > ______________________________________________________ > > > Ebony Elizabeth Thomas wrote: > >I think only teachers understand this. Nobody sane > teaches for the money. We teach because of the 1001 > "little rewards" that we get. > But how much teaching do people think Dumbledore actually does? His role seems more of a managerial one, and he's not really in that close contact with the students (like they don't even know where hs office is). How many "little rewards" are there in that? Do you think he teaches Advanced transfiguration or DADA at NEWT level? I'd really like to see him in action in the classroom, unfortunately I think he's more likely to die in the next book than start taking classes. Florence From pbnesbit at msn.com Thu Jun 28 01:51:16 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 01:51:16 -0000 Subject: USA Today Link In-Reply-To: <9hduer+2coq@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9he2ik+4dar@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21547 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" wrote: > http://www.usatoday.com/life/2001-06-27-potter.htm > They are very nice stills and there are links for more info. > > Thanks to Ash for delurking, > Bugg. > > > Waaah! I couldn't see the stills from the link Ash gave. Peace & Plenty, Parker (off to try again) Keeper of Remus Lupin's heart Keeper of Sirius Black's body Keeper of Severus Snape's soul From ra_1013 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 02:44:46 2001 From: ra_1013 at yahoo.com (Andrea) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's Scar (was: trailer) In-Reply-To: <12f.a4ed6b.286bdc68@cs.com> Message-ID: <20010628024446.98544.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21548 --- UcfRentLuvr at cs.com wrote: > On the USA Today website, they show several > pictures from the trailer. Is > it just me, or does it bother anyone else that they > moved Harry's scar from > the middle of his foredead to above his right > eyebrow? That was the one thing that I didn't like about the latest glimpses from the trailer. Harry's scar is much too faint and definitely off-center. It looked more like he just got up and has sheet-creases on his forehead! The scar is supposed to be noticable enough that it *can* be seen by others - people are staring at Harry's scar all the time. While it may be partially screened by his hair (especially when he smashes it down like on the Knight Bus), it's still visible. Andrea 7 1/2 inches, maple, phoenix feather ===== "Reality is for people who lack imagination." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Jun 28 03:02:03 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 03:02:03 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: trailer In-Reply-To: <9hdtof+7vnu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9he6nb+3jcv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21549 However, I think I'm > going to have to re-read SS/PS just to make sure I'm recalling > everything. But the thing that jumps out at me is this: wasn't > Neville the one who couldn't make his broom rise? And wasn't Harry's > broom delivered wrapped so that some people (cough*Draco*cough) > wouldn't make a fuss about a first year getting his own broom? Or am > I just going crazy again? > > ~Emma > Gryffindor > 8" Mahogany with unicorn hair This is from faulty mommybrain memory -- but Neville's broom rose and he fell off and was injured....the broom was concealed in a package when delivered to Harry...but wow, the way Hedwig swoops into the dining hall is outstanding Susan From joym999 at aol.com Thu Jun 28 03:58:44 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 03:58:44 -0000 Subject: USA Today Link In-Reply-To: <9he2ik+4dar@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hea1k+f9ao@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21550 > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" wrote: > http://www.usatoday.com/life/2001-06-27-potter.htm This site has some nice stills, but the captions were clearly written by someone who doesnt know the HP books from his elbow. The captions are full of minor inaccuracies. The weirdest one is the caption for the photo of Neville on a broomstick: > Up, up and away > Unlike Neville, seen here, Harry Potter has never been the star of > a Quidditch team, scoring points while riding a broom far above the > ground. When Harry begins life at Hogwart`s, he knows no spells and > has never helped catch a dragon, an important event in a wizard`s > life. Huh? I can just picture the USA website editor: I need some captions for these photos. You, over there, make something up. Well, USA Today isnt much of a newspaper, IMHO, so I suppose accuracy is way too much to hope for. --Joywitch From kateyes444 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 04:00:46 2001 From: kateyes444 at yahoo.com (kateyes444 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 04:00:46 -0000 Subject: I'm New :) Message-ID: <9hea5e+nmhg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21551 Hi all, I was recommended to this mailing list by a friend so I thought that I would give it a try. :) I love Harry Potter of course - and I'm basically just a fan of fantasy and sci fi in general. I tried posting at the HP fandom board (I was already a regular poster at ringbearer) but it kind of scared me...(big understatement!) so now I giving this a go. I have one quick question in relation to the HP trailer (and apologies if it was answered already!). Will it be attached to Artifical Intelligence? I was planning on seeing that already - and the HP trailer would just be an added bonus. Anyway - I'm happy to join you all and excited about discussing theories and such. :) -Kathy From rcraigharman at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 04:05:35 2001 From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 04:05:35 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: trailer In-Reply-To: <9hdtof+7vnu@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9heaef+p8mp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21552 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Emma Moniz" wrote: > > But the thing that jumps out at me is this: wasn't Neville the one > who couldn't make his broom rise? Initially, yes: "Harry's broom jumped into his hand at once, but it was one of the few that did. [....] and Neville's hadn't moved at all." Two paragraphs later, after training from Madam Hooch: "But Nevile, nervous and jumpy and frightened of being left on the ground, pushed off hard before the whistle had touched Madam Hooch's lips. [....] Neville was rising straight off the ground like a cork shot out of a bottle -- twelve feet -- twenty feet." He fell sideways off the broom and landed with a thud. [SS 146-147, passim.] ....Craig From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 28 04:22:49 2001 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 04:22:49 -0000 Subject: PoA Chapter 17+MOVIE: Trailer opinions+Boggarts+Various Ramblings In-Reply-To: <9hbb2u+f5b6@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hebep+990u@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21553 Hi everybody! I've really been a lurker lately, but I've been busy getting ready for my trip so I've not had much time... Prision of Azkaban- I totally agree with everything Joywitch wrote on the Death Penalty and its relation to HP. In fact I readily agree with everything everyones written, but I still wanted to comment. I brought this up long ago, and I still don't think Harry was *ever* going to kill Sirius. Not that he physically couldn't, (like someone wrote- there are other ways of killing someone that AK.) but I don't think he was thinking clearly enough in that moment to know what he was doing, or to have a certain spell in mind. He was filled with rage and anger to bursting, and then when he stopped and in that moment saw the implications of what he was threatening to do he didn't. PoA is my favourite book, and its largely due to the fact that Harry deals with his "inner demons". That's personified in the dementors, but comes through even better in this scene. Harry is truly a person of moral courage. Movie Trailer- Ok I've watched it numerous times, blurry though it is, and I love it...EXCEPT for (do you really want to know?) 1. Harry's Scar is in the wrong place. 2. It looks like Neville is out of the Fluffy scene for sure, and they aren't wearing pyjamas! 3. What is it with the "Petrificus Totalus" line that they aren't wearing robes? I thought they had robes on all the time! (Well they have to launder them once and awhile, but-). If they wear muggle clothes even at Hogwarts then GoF and the QWC isn't going to make much sense. 4. The moving staircase looks a little, uh...dangerous. I know they move but this makes it look as though one could easily fall to ones death. I didn't think they were quite so risky. (are they supposed to be?) 5. Hogwarts. When they are coming in the boats, and you see Hogwarts...erm..what to say? It's not right, but I *know* I can't expect it to be. *loud sigh* 6.When Dumbledore says that the third floor corridor is off-limits it sounds like "first", but this could be my american ears being confused. Boggarts- I think maybe someone already reponded, but one of the questions for the last chapter summeries was about whether Harry's boggart was still a dementor at the end of PoA? I'd assume yes since it was still a dementor and the third task in GoF. The lingering question is why. Why would the Dementor still be Harry's fear when he has the power of the patronus over it? We have to assume the Boggart can't change of over time, or to assume it can for that matter. So why in GoF is Harry still most afraid of the Dementor? Because even the patronus doesn't calm his fears? Because it was a fast moving section and JKR didn't feel like being very origninal or distracting to the plot at that point? Hmmm... I hope that I'll have time to drop in during July, but since I'm not sure how much computer access I'll have that's iffy! Have a great July everyone! Scott From joym999 at aol.com Thu Jun 28 04:40:42 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 04:40:42 -0000 Subject: Trailer question Message-ID: <9hecga+9320@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21554 Spoiler Space For Those of you who havent seen it yet There is a very brief shot, towards the end of the new trailer, that looks like an explosion or maybe something made of stone falling over and crashing. It is just after the brief scene of Hagrid on the flying motorbike and just before the shot of Mr. Ollivander. Does anyone know what that scene is supposed to be? Also, I know a lot of people are upset because Harrys scar is not in the middle of his forehead, but does it ever actually say in the books that that is where the scar is supposed to be? IIRC, the books just say that he has a scar ON his forehead. Maybe we have just assumed it is in the middle because of the artwork. I am more bothered by the fact that Harrys hair looks brown, rather than black. --Joywitch From crstbo623 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 04:42:15 2001 From: crstbo623 at yahoo.com (crstbo623 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 04:42:15 -0000 Subject: PoA Chapter 17+MOVIE: Trailer opinions+Boggarts+Various Ramblings In-Reply-To: <9hebep+990u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hecj7+1fjt@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21555 Two points: 1) I also heard the trailer as if it said the first floor corridor and not third. 2) Harry's boggart is still a demeantor because it is not truly the demeantor that he is fearful of but the painful memories of his parents dying that the demeantor evokes who he comes in contact with it. Harry doesn't want to be continually haunted by those memories, and they are what he is fearful of. He may have the ability to protect himself from it but he doesn't want to have to think about it. --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" wrote: > Hi everybody! I've really been a lurker lately, but I've been busy > getting ready for my trip so I've not had much time... > > Prision of Azkaban- > > I totally agree with everything Joywitch wrote on the Death Penalty > and its relation to HP. In fact I readily agree with everything > everyones written, but I still wanted to comment. > > I brought this up long ago, and I still don't think Harry was *ever* > going to kill Sirius. Not that he physically couldn't, (like someone > wrote- there are other ways of killing someone that AK.) but I don't > think he was thinking clearly enough in that moment to know what he > was doing, or to have a certain spell in mind. He was filled with > rage and anger to bursting, and then when he stopped and in that > moment saw the implications of what he was threatening to do he > didn't. > > PoA is my favourite book, and its largely due to the fact that Harry > deals with his "inner demons". That's personified in the dementors, > but comes through even better in this scene. Harry is truly a person > of moral courage. > > Movie Trailer- > > Ok I've watched it numerous times, blurry though it is, and I love > it...EXCEPT for (do you really want to know?) > 1. Harry's Scar is in the wrong place. > 2. It looks like Neville is out of the Fluffy scene for sure, and > they aren't wearing pyjamas! > 3. What is it with the "Petrificus Totalus" line that they aren't > wearing robes? I thought they had robes on all the time! (Well they > have to launder them once and awhile, but-). If they wear muggle > clothes even at Hogwarts then GoF and the QWC isn't going to make > much sense. > 4. The moving staircase looks a little, uh...dangerous. I know they > move but this makes it look as though one could easily fall to ones > death. I didn't think they were quite so risky. (are they supposed to > be?) > 5. Hogwarts. When they are coming in the boats, and you see > Hogwarts...erm..what to say? It's not right, but I *know* I can't > expect it to be. *loud sigh* > 6.When Dumbledore says that the third floor corridor is off-limits it > sounds like "first", but this could be my american ears being > confused. > > Boggarts- > > I think maybe someone already reponded, but one of the questions for > the last chapter summeries was about whether Harry's boggart was > still a dementor at the end of PoA? I'd assume yes since it was still > a dementor and the third task in GoF. The lingering question is why. > Why would the Dementor still be Harry's fear when he has the power of > the patronus over it? We have to assume the Boggart can't change of > over time, or to assume it can for that matter. So why in GoF is > Harry still most afraid of the Dementor? Because even the patronus > doesn't calm his fears? Because it was a fast moving section and JKR > didn't feel like being very origninal or distracting to the plot at > that point? Hmmm... > > I hope that I'll have time to drop in during July, but since I'm not > sure how much computer access I'll have that's iffy! Have a great > July everyone! > > Scott From bkdelong at pobox.com Thu Jun 28 04:48:46 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 00:48:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer question In-Reply-To: <9hecga+9320@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010628004313.05274620@pop.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21556 At 04:40 AM 06/28/2001 +0000, you wrote: >Spoiler > > >Space > > >For > > >Those > > >of > > >you > > >who > > >havent > > >seen > > >it > > >yet > > >There is a very brief shot, towards the end of the new trailer, that >looks like an explosion or maybe something made of stone falling over >and crashing. It is just after the brief scene of Hagrid on the >flying motorbike and just before the shot of Mr. Ollivander. Does >anyone know what that scene is supposed to be? I'm PRETTY sure it's this: "Harry -- move diagonally four squares to the right." Their first real shock came when their other knight was taken. The white queen smashed him to the floor and dragged him off the board, where he lay quite still, facedown. "Had to let that happen," said Ron, looking shaken. "Leaves you free to take that bishop, Hermione, go on." >Also, I know a lot of people are upset because Harrys scar is not in >the middle of his forehead, but does it ever actually say in the >books that that is where the scar is supposed to be? IIRC, the books >just say that he has a scar ON his forehead. Maybe we have just >assumed it is in the middle because of the artwork. I am more >bothered by the fact that Harrys hair looks brown, rather than black. Then I suggest you read this: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_06_24_archive.html#4278308 THANKS AMANDA! -- B.K. DeLong The Harry Potter Galleries http://www.hpgalleries.com/ Editor-in-Chief The Leaky Cauldron News section bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ +1.617.877.3271 From bsmjs at csu.edu Thu Jun 28 05:22:17 2001 From: bsmjs at csu.edu (M.J. Stallworth) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 00:22:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer question In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010628004313.05274620@pop.earthlink.net> References: <9hecga+9320@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <200106280518.AAA19963@academic1.csu.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 21557 DANG!!! It is taking forever to load!! And I'm Potterholic enough to sit here and wait it out!! BTW, I'm new to the list. Been lurking and am so incredibly relieved to find out that I'm not only "seasoned citizen" to have been infected with Pottermania. I have Potter paraphenalia coming out the wazoo....I'm almost scared of myself. Ok, so I'm not *really* a "seasoned citizen".....but it's getting closer every day! Cafe Latte **************************************************************************** ************************* I wont have this namby- pamby, wishy- washy nonsense about not hitting people who deserve it - Aunt Marge Unicorn Hair, Mahogany, 8 inches **************************************************************************** ************************** From vayabe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 06:15:49 2001 From: vayabe at yahoo.com (vayabe at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:15:49 -0000 Subject: Dobby's history In-Reply-To: <9hdml4+odjp@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hei2l+acva@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21558 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Allison" wrote: > Florence wrote: > > I just had a wild idea that perhaps Dobby (or his father/mother) > had > > previously belonged to the Potters and was relocated to the Malfoys > > after the Godrics Hollow massacre. > > > > James Potter was from an old wizarding family and might have owned > a > > house elf? Could this explain why Dobby is such a fan of Harry? > > > Maybe, but I doubt it. Dobby says he is a fan of Harry's because > Harry's defeat of V. changed the way house-elves were treated, Dobby > himself being the exception. > > And in the 4th book, doesn't Winky say her mother and her grandmother > both served the Crouches? I think house-elves probably get one > family (or school or business, like Hogwarts) and that family serves > it until they're released or fired. > > Allison Which raises the question of who Winky's father was and, for that matter, the one of how house elves reproduce seing as there rarely seems to be more than one elf per household. Do their masters get them to breed or do they only have one parent ? As for Dobby once being the Potter's elf, I like the idea but wouldn't the shame of surviving his familly drive even an unconventional elf to suicide ? Besides, hell, high water and Dumbledore combined wouldn't have kept him from Harry for so long in that case. Alice From lumen_dei at freeler.nl Thu Jun 28 06:39:32 2001 From: lumen_dei at freeler.nl (lumen_dei at freeler.nl) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:39:32 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Harry_Potter_Still_from_the_Trailer=A0_?= Message-ID: <9hejf4+v12s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21559 Hello, I just wanted to let everyone know that we have posted some of the stills from the 2nd trailer. Hope you enjoy. They are under the "Harry Potter's Press Page". http://www.geocities.com/lumen_dei/intro.html From oppen at cnsinternet.com Thu Jun 28 07:26:58 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 02:26:58 -0500 Subject: new (?) thoughts about the Dursleys References: <993688146.2012.4932.l9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <010201c0ffa3$c2e7d7e0$9bc71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 21560 > > Subject: Re: new (?) thoughts about the Dursleys > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > I never thought about it until now. However, it did appear to me > that they were trying to keep Harry from Hogwarts..and acted like > they had never heard of the place. Perhaps, Dumbledore made no > mention of Hogwarts in the letter. > > > > Doesn't Petunia, in one of her rants somewhere say something > like, "Lily got one of those letters, and then went off to that > school and she came home turning teapots into mice -- my parents were > so proud to have a witch in the family. BUt I saw her for what she > was -- a freak" (I can't look this up at the moment) My take was that > the Durselys took Harry in, and this is awful, to beat out > his "abnormality" out of him -- I get the impression that Petunia was > jealous of Lily and is quite bitter at the wizarding world -- so she > wanted to deprive HArry of his legacy as revenge. I think they > either hid or destroyed the letter, and hoped that would be that. I > really doubt they know about Mrs. Figg, they were probably just happy > to have a reliable (maybe even free) sitter, if she's kind of wierd, > smells like cabbages, and makes Harry uncomfortable, all the better > in thier opinion. My question is, if Mrs. Figg is the right Figg, > why didn't she ever let it slip to Harry OR tell Dumbledore the kind > of abuse HArry is suffering? > > >Where are the other Potters? > > And what happened to those O-so-supportive Lily/Petunia parents? > > Stephanie This is a really good question. I kind of think that Petunia and Lily were already on bad terms before Lily got The Letter, and Petunia was not only jealous of her sister's chance to study at Hogwarts, but felt that this gave her sister an undeserved high position in the family. Could it be that she was the Squib daughter of magical parents, and her current attitude toward the whole subject is a combination of jealousy and sour grapes? I think that if they had known about Mrs. Figg, they'd have kept Harry a million miles away from her...remember how they reacted to anybody acting even slightly strangely? Why Mrs. Figg herself didn't break cover around Harry (on a "this is our secret, little Harry---you don't want your cousin Dudley to know this, now do you?" basis) is something I want to know. Her willingness to let the Dursleys mistreat Harry is bad enough, but keeping up the mad-old-bat act even when it's just the two of them is taking things a trifle far for my taste. Also, if the wizards knew what sort of mistreatment Harry was getting, I would have thought that they could have leaned on Vernon and Petunia good and hard. No matter _how_ the Dursleys felt about Harry, or about wizards, I rather think that a little "friendly visit" from some people from the wizarding world would have adjusted their attitude pretty quick, like so: "Mr. Dursley? I'm Guido Breakbonelli from the Ministry of Magic, and this is my assistant, Rubeus Hagrid. We want to discuss this little nephew of yours. The one you're mistreating." "Yes, we know, it's your household. However, this _is_ a rather accident-prone neighborhood...you know, people trip over nothing at all and get their arms broken, people have something happen to them that makes them spend the rest of their lives sitting on lily pads, croaking and eating flies, people even have been known to have their clothing disappear, right in the middle of important business meetings with valued clients, right, Hagrid?" (Hagrid speaks for the first time) "I was just thinking about the days when I played rugby. The sound of bones breaking, the screams and squeals for mercy...I miss it so much!" "So we understand each other, _don't_ we, Mr. Dursley? We're very superstitous at the Ministry. If anything bad happens to your nephew, like being treated a lot worse than that oinker of a son of yours, or being bullied by your son _or anybody else,_ we're going to hold you responsible. Even if you aren't at fault. Even if you can _prove_ you aren't at fault. *cue music from _The Godfather_ movies* Consider this an offer you can't refuse." From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Jun 28 07:45:34 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:45:34 -0000 Subject: Trailer envy, the dreadful Dursleys, Lily- thoughts Message-ID: <9henau+s72g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21561 First of all: I nearly decided to take a weekend flight to London just to see the trailer you lucky US and UK friends can already see on the big screen. Here in good old Europe it will take ages until I'll be able to see it. BIG sigh!:( So, to the Dursleys: Milz wrote: ?The Dursley's methods were totally wrong. But I think deep down in their hearts they thought they were doing the right thing for Harry and for themselves. As strange as it may sound I think Petunia does love Harry in her own way and I think she loved Lily too. If she didn't love Lily, Petunia wouldn't have been upset that she married James, whom she thought was a good-for-nothing. you only get upset about people making what you think are bad choices if you care for them. However, her fear about magic manifests as anger directed toward the two magical people in her family, Lily and Harry, because her fear is just too great for her to cope properly." I don't really agree with you there. IMHO, Petunia has alway been extremely jealous of her sister, just think of P. being described as horse- faced and bony, and Lily as a beautiful, green-eyed redhead. (Which makes me wonder, BTW, if they are *really* sisters?????? Couldn't Lily be a stepdaughter? Is it possible that one single witch is born into a Muggle family?- The Creevey brothers are Muggle-born, too, but BOTH of them are wizards) Therefore, her resentments about Lily having married James might come from jealousy as well (I mean, I would be jealous seeing my sister going off with deadly attractive James when I'm having nobody or, which is worse, Vernon!) Which is very much the same as Stephanie wrote: ?I get the impression that Petunia was jealous of Lily and is quite bitter at the wizarding world -- so she wanted to deprive HArry of his legacy as revenge. I think they either hid or destroyed the letter, and hoped that would be that. I really doubt they know about Mrs. Figg, they were probably just happy to have a reliable (maybe even free) sitter, if she's kind of wierd, smells like cabbages, and makes Harry uncomfortable, all the better in thier opinion. My question is, if Mrs. Figg is the right Figg, why didn't she ever let it slip to Harry OR tell Dumbledore the kind of abuse HArry is suffering?" This last question makes me wish even more to know WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THAT LETTER!!!! Had Dumbledore *really* wanted Harry to know about his wizard identity, he could have asked Mrs. Figg (who, if she is a witch, certainly *was* in contact with him) to tell him about it if the Dursleys didn't. So, maybe D. preferred Harry suffering instead of Harry knowing and putting himself into danger. Melanie wrote: ?For legal purposes only, I'm assuming that the Dursley's did keep the letter. My reasons for believing this are simple: To my knowledge the closest thing that the Potters had to a will indicated that if anything were to happen to them Sirius would be granted custody. Therefore, if they had a letter telling them to keep Harry they couldn't get in trouble at all. However, I doubt they were told anything about Sirius Black. And part of me also wonders if they were lied to about other living relatives. It seems very odd that he would have no living relatives..I mean when this is disscussed we seem to focus on LIly, however, James had a family too. Where are the other Potters?" I agree with you in doubting the Dursleys knew anything about Sirius, the letter presumably being written by Dumbledore and not by J&L. And what sense would it have made leaving Harry with them, but informing them Harry had a godfather/guardian? They probably would have gone to any lengths to find Sirius and dump Harry on him, just to get rid of him, which would have been exactly opposed to what Dumbledore wanted. Jami wrote: ?Whether or not Mrs. Figg turns out to be a witch, it still doesn't explain why Dumbledore insisted that Harry return to the Dursleys at the end of GoF before joining the Weasleys. After all, why would one witch offer more protection than a houseful of wizards and witches ... unless Mrs. Figg has something she needs to give or tell Harry at this point in the epic." Don't you think he made Harry return for 2 reasons, 1) security, 2) recovery (far away from wizarding world without lots of persons unable to resist questioning him about Voldemort &company)? Susanna From bugganeer at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 07:49:27 2001 From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:49:27 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Teaching In-Reply-To: <9h0fqk+cfee@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9heni7+79ja@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21562 He may be managerial now but he taught for many years and still keeps active in student affairs. Most students appear to respect him. IMO he is active enough to enjoy the rewards of educating even if he doesn't teach a specific class anymore. The owner of the day care I used to work at still enjoys spending time with the kids. She knows the value of active participation. Although the kids know where her office is they seldom go there. They see her in the classrooms, lunch area, or play areas. [I hope I made sense] I don't see Dumbledore teaching a Hogwarts class, but he may run teacher clinics or advanced transfiguration seminars. Dumbledore could die, but that is too big to deal with now. Bugg Florence wrote: > But how much teaching do people think Dumbledore actually does? His role seems more of a managerial one, and he's not really in that close contact with the students (like they don't even know where hs office is). How many "little rewards" are there in that? Do you think he teaches Advanced transfiguration or DADA at NEWT level? I'd really like to see him in action in the classroom, unfortunately I think he's more likely to die in the next book than start taking classes. > > Florence From tabouli at unite.com.au Thu Jun 28 06:35:46 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:35:46 +1000 Subject: Owls, Teachers, Death and Housism Message-ID: <005201c0ffa7$b87a0680$ca93aecb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 21563 (Tabouli presses "send/receive" and watches the "receiving mail" message twinkling on and on and on in growing dismay) ArrrgyeEEEurgggh... I *knew* it was a bad idea to leave myself subscribed and nip off to Tasmania for a week... my mailbox is positively overflowing with HP4GU, both OT and O! O well, I suppose that's one of the great things about mailing lists like this: when you go away on holiday you can be guaranteed plenty of letters when you get home! Right. (rolls up sleeves in manner of Sirius and Remus in the Shrieking Shack) A question to begin with: what's this VW1 abbreviation stand for? (Voldemort War 1? Vile Wizards in Wonderland?) Alice: > How long can Pig stay an owlet ? Surely by the end of GoF he's no longer the baby described. And if Hagrid is part giant, could prof. Flitwick be part goblin/leprechaun/insert-your-favourite-small-being ? I'm with Ginny on Ron's inglorious shortening of Pigwidgeon's name... why shorten a name that whimsical? I always saw him as a young, high-spirited miniature adult rather than a baby owl. Aren't Scops owls a tiny species when adult? As for the good ship P/H, Hedwig's made it clear that she thinks Pigwidgeon rather juvenile and undignified, so I doubt she'd be snatching him from the cradle/nest. He needs a she-owl with a better sense of humour to appreciate him, and she needs someone older and more serious (a lovesick Hedwig going over all cooey and hooty would be very endearing!) And yeah, I mused ages ago that Flitwick's probably part pixie or something: another of Dumbledore's controversial appointments? Craig: > OTOH, if Harry and Ron have natural gifts of seership, then they could unconsciously get their made-up horoscopes correct, just on the basis of it *sounding good to them*. Err, given they were doing their best to come up with dire and tragic predictions of their own demises in GoF, I have to hope not! > This is true enough, however, the KKK (_Ku_ Klux Klan, not _Klu_ Klux Klan, BTW) Now, all you history buffs out there, where exactly does the name "Ku Klux Klan" come from anyway? Joelle: > I think another reason Snape became a teacher was for the sense of power >From my memories of my long trek through the HP4GU holiday mail backlog, I seem to remember this thread implying that Snape would have made more money by being a potion peddler or something. My impression has always been that to be a teacher in Hogwarts is a very prestigious and probably well-paid profession in the magic world, in contrast to the Anglophone muggle world, where they mostly seem to have low status and salaries. Remember that Dumbledore is considered the greatest wizard alive, and he prefers being headmaster at Hogwarts to being Minister of Magic. Certainly Hagrid is overwhelmed at the prospect of being a teacher there and considers Hogwarts teachers to be eminently worthy of respect. I haven't heard any snooting about teaching being a lowly profession from the status-conscious Malfoys, either. Lindsay: > It is worth pointing out that there is no reason why Ginny has to be the last child. Molly could announce the happy news that she is expecting a seventh son/second daughter of a seventh son any day now. A still *bigger* gap between children, this would be! What would the missing Weasley speculators do then? Susanna: > I imagine that Hagrid was expelled and, considering what he was accused of, he wasn't allowed to enter the school grounds for quite a long time. Later, when dumbledore became Headmaster and Ogg retired, he called Hagrid. Exactly. Surely no-one would make Hagrid gamekeeper at the age of 13, no matter how big and beast-oriented he was. Meijen Shaggy: > JKR have been asked whether Arabella Figg and Mrs. Figg were the same person, and her answer was (sort of...) positive... Didn't she say that Mrs Figg was a Squib in the same chat where she said that Crookshanks was part-Kneazle? Susanna: > Where are the other Potters? Stephanie: > And what happened to those O-so-supportive Lily/Petunia parents? I think we're to presume that Voldemort polished off the lot looking for Harry, hence the great crowd Harry sees in the Mirror of Erised. Which would give Petunia still more reasons to be bitter about magic in general and Harry in particular: her sister's magical connection caused the death of all her and her husband's relatives. Michelle: > The thing that I don't like is Maggie Smith's accent. She sounds like she's from Northern Ireland. I always thought JKR was driving home the point that McGonagall is Scottish pretty heavily, so I'd assume that's the accent Maggie's aiming for (making her a Hogwarts local!). Though some vague memory tells me that "Mc" with no "a" in the middle is originally Irish and that the Irish also have tartans, so Northern Ireland is possible. Any wisdom from the founts out there? One last gripe: OK, so I gracefully sink my exciting theory that Lily may have been a Slytherin in the light of JKR's chatscript, grumbling darkly to myself. *However*, does anyone else besides me feel faintly bothered by JKR's shameless partisanship for Gryffindor? Yes, I know she values bravery more highly than the virtues embodied in the other houses, but making all but a couple of the significant unambiguously "good" characters in the books Gryffindors strikes me as a touch housist (?). Are hard workers and those of "ready mind" really so intrinsically weak at Quidditch that they accept without question that the Cup is always a fight between Slytherin and Gryffindor (in which they of course support Gryffindor, the Good Guys)?? Don't Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff ever win the House Championship? Why don't Ravenclaws make up for lost Quidditch points by getting points for classwork? Hermione aside, you'd expect them to dominate in the top students of the year. Speculations welcome... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fgcjnk at btinternet.com Thu Jun 28 08:05:05 2001 From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:05:05 -0000 Subject: Dobby's history In-Reply-To: <9hei2l+acva@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9heofh+10s17@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21564 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., vayabe at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Allison" wrote: > > Florence wrote: > > > I just had a wild idea that perhaps Dobby (or his father/mother) > > had > > > previously belonged to the Potters and was relocated to the > Malfoys > > > after the Godrics Hollow massacre. > > > > > > James Potter was from an old wizarding family and might have > owned > > a > > > house elf? Could this explain why Dobby is such a fan of Harry? > > > > > > Maybe, but I doubt it. Dobby says he is a fan of Harry's because > > Harry's defeat of V. changed the way house-elves were treated, > Dobby > > himself being the exception. > > > > And in the 4th book, doesn't Winky say her mother and her > grandmother > > both served the Crouches? I think house-elves probably get one > > family (or school or business, like Hogwarts) and that family > serves > > it until they're released or fired. > > > > Allison > > Which raises the question of who Winky's father was and, for that > matter, the one of how house elves reproduce seing as there rarely > seems to be more than one elf per household. Do their masters get > them to breed or do they only have one parent ? > As for Dobby once being the Potter's elf, I like the idea but > wouldn't the shame of surviving his familly drive even an > unconventional elf to suicide ? Besides, hell, high water and > Dumbledore combined wouldn't have kept him from Harry for so long in > that case. > > Alice Yes, You're probably right. It all depends if the House elf relocation department can actually break the old bond and bind an elf to its new family. It would explain where Dobby got his values from though don't you think? As far as house elf reproduction goes, I think it happens in the usual way (you do have male/female elves after all). I guess the elf children get relocated to new families when they're old enough and traditionally the family owning the mother would keep the oldest female (maybe the oldest Male goes to the fathers family). I suspect that they either don't have large families or they don't get the chance to breed very often, otherwise house elves would be much more plentiful, cheap and Mrs Weasley could have one. Florence From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Jun 28 08:11:55 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:11:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: new (?) thoughts about the Dursleys In-Reply-To: <010201c0ffa3$c2e7d7e0$9bc71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <20010628081155.96504.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21565 --- Eric Oppen ha scritto:
>
> Subject: Re: new (?) thoughts about the Dursleys
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote:
> > I never thought about it until now. However, it did appear to me
> that they were trying to keep Harry from Hogwarts..and acted like
> they had never heard of the place. Perhaps, Dumbledore made no
> mention of Hogwarts in the letter.
> >
>
> Doesn't Petunia, in one of her rants somewhere say something
> like, "Lily got one of those letters, and then went off to that
> school and she came home turning teapots into mice -- my parents were
> so proud to have a witch in the family. BUt I saw her for what she
> was -- a freak" (I can't look this up at the moment) My take was that
> the Durselys took Harry in, and this is awful, to beat out
> his "abnormality" out of him -- I get the impression that Petunia was
> jealous of Lily and is quite bitter at the wizarding world -- so she
> wanted to deprive HArry of his legacy as revenge. I think they
> either hid or destroyed the letter, and hoped that would be that. I
> really doubt they know about Mrs. Figg, they were probably just happy
> to have a reliable (maybe even free) sitter, if she's kind of wierd,
> smells like cabbages, and makes Harry uncomfortable, all the better
> in thier opinion. My question is, if Mrs. Figg is the right Figg,
> why didn't she ever let it slip to Harry OR tell Dumbledore the kind
> of abuse HArry is suffering?
>
> >Where are the other Potters?
>
> And what happened to those O-so-supportive Lily/Petunia parents?
>
> Stephanie
This is a really good question. I kind of think that Petunia and Lily were
already on bad terms before Lily got The Letter, and Petunia was not only
jealous of her sister's chance to study at Hogwarts, but felt that this gave
her sister an undeserved high position in the family. Could it be that she
was the Squib daughter of magical parents, and her current attitude toward
the whole subject is a combination of jealousy and sour grapes?

Ah, so you had the same idea, the other way round! Because I thought they might be stepsisters, but with Lily being an adopted daughter. I think that if they had known about Mrs. Figg, they'd have kept Harry a
million miles away from her...remember how they reacted to anybody acting
even slightly strangely? Why Mrs. Figg herself didn't break cover around
Harry (on a "this is our secret, little Harry---you don't want your cousin
Dudley to know this, now do you?" basis) is something I want to know. Her
Just read my enourmously witty, brilliant etc.etc mail of today about the Dursleys.(Won't give you a clue, but read it all the same) willingness to let the Dursleys mistreat Harry is bad enough, but keeping up
the mad-old-bat act even when it's just the two of them is taking things a
trifle far for my taste.

Also, if the wizards knew what sort of mistreatment Harry was getting, I
would have thought that they could have leaned on Vernon and Petunia good
and hard. No matter _how_ the Dursleys felt about Harry, or about wizards,
I rather think that a little "friendly visit" from some people from the
wizarding world would have adjusted their attitude pretty quick, like so:

You know what I suspect you of? You have copied this (wonderful!!) scene from the Monty Pythons, when Michael Palin and the other one do the mafiosi-sketch with the general (But parachutes can catch fire, general....) LOL Susanna/pigwidgeon37 "Mr. Dursley? I'm Guido Breakbonelli from the Ministry of Magic, and this
is my assistant, Rubeus Hagrid. We want to discuss this little nephew of
yours. The one you're mistreating."
"Yes, we know, it's your household. However, this _is_ a rather
accident-prone neighborhood...you know, people trip over nothing at all and
get their arms broken, people have something happen to them that makes them
spend the rest of their lives sitting on lily pads, croaking and eating
flies, people even have been known to have their clothing disappear, right
in the middle of important business meetings with valued clients, right,
Hagrid?"
(Hagrid speaks for the first time) "I was just thinking about the days when
I played rugby. The sound of bones breaking, the screams and squeals for
mercy...I miss it so much!"
"So we understand each other, _don't_ we, Mr. Dursley? We're very
superstitous at the Ministry. If anything bad happens to your nephew, like
being treated a lot worse than that oinker of a son of yours, or being
bullied by your son _or anybody else,_ we're going to hold you responsible.
Even if you aren't at fault. Even if you can _prove_ you aren't at fault.
*cue music from _The Godfather_ movies* Consider this an offer you can't
refuse."
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 28 08:20:59 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:20:59 -0000 Subject: Harry's Scar (was: trailer) - movie as canon? In-Reply-To: <20010628024446.98544.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hepdb+3h0r@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21566 Andrea wrote: > > That was the one thing that I didn't like about the > latest glimpses from the trailer. Harry's scar is > much too faint and definitely off-center. It looked > more like he just got up and has sheet-creases on his > forehead! The scar is supposed to be noticable enough > that it *can* be seen by others - people are staring > at Harry's scar all the time. While it may be > partially screened by his hair (especially when he > smashes it down like on the Knight Bus), it's still > visible. > > Andrea > > 7 1/2 inches, maple, phoenix feather > My take on this is that Harry is very conscious of the scar and tries to hide it on various occasions. Mostly people staring at it are those who already know he's Harry and are trying to see the scar, which implies that it's *less* obvious than Harry thinks it is. Karkaroff is an exception as IIRC he recognises Harry by the scar - but they are in a logjam at the time. More typical is the Bulgarian MOM who has to have the scar pointed out by Fudge (again IIRC). David, haven't seen the trailer, happy to wait From joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 08:47:34 2001 From: joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com (Joy the Lemur) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 01:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Peter/Scabbers Message-ID: <20010628084734.45948.qmail@web9208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21567 (and no, that's not intended to be a 'ship!) Greetings! Posting-Newbie alert! I've searched the archives on several keywords but I'm afraid my keywords on this topic are a bit too general. So I've probably missed the prior discussions. However, I really need to get this thought out into the forum or else I'll never fall asleep tonight. I'll just toss and turn wondering... Peter Pettigrew is said to be, I believe, a fellow who basically cannot risk his life for the Greater Good. He would rather join the powerful evil forces than be killed by them. Likewise, those people who would break the strike and go to work for the "evil" management rather than risk their own livelihood for the Greater Good...are also known as "scabs." scabs...scabbers... Am I reaching here? Actually, now that I'm typing this out, it seems a bit too obvious that I don't trust it to be legitimate speculation. I'm sure y'all have discussed it to death...I apologize now and hope someone can direct me to the relevant thread. :D -joy the lemur __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Thu Jun 28 09:25:17 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:25:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Owls, Teachers, Death and Housism In-Reply-To: <005201c0ffa7$b87a0680$ca93aecb@price> Message-ID: <20010628092517.7618.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21568 --- Tabouli ha scritto: Tabouli wrote: I'm with Ginny on Ron's inglorious shortening of Pigwidgeon's name... why shorten a name that whimsical? I always saw him as a young, high-spirited miniature adult rather than a baby owl. Aren't Scops owls a tiny species when adult? As for the good ship P/H, Hedwig's made it clear that she thinks Pigwidgeon rather juvenile and undignified, so I doubt she'd be snatching him from the cradle/nest Yep, I'm with you on that one! Remember when in SS/PS harry first sees the owl shop? It is clear there that they are all trained post owls and therefore grown up, but they range from very small to huge barn owls. >From my memories of my long trek through the HP4GU holiday mail backlog, I seem to remember this thread implying that Snape would have made more money by being a potion peddler or something. That was me, actually. But I didn't mean he should have done it for the money and the prestige, I was just wondering WHY on earth a person that loathed children, their ways of thinking an behaving so much, would become a teacher and not earn his living in a may more fitting his character? My impression has always been that to be a teacher in Hogwarts is a very prestigious and probably well-paid profession in the magic world, in contrast to the Anglophone muggle world, where they mostly seem to have low status and salaries. Remember that Dumbledore is considered the greatest wizard alive, and he prefers being headmaster at Hogwarts to being Minister of Magic. Certainly Hagrid is overwhelmed at the prospect of being a teacher there and considers Hogwarts teachers to be eminently worthy of respect. I haven't heard any snooting about teaching being a lowly profession from the status-conscious Malfoys, either.
Susanna:
> I imagine that Hagrid was expelled and, considering what he
was accused of, he wasn't allowed to enter the school grounds for
quite a long time. Later, when dumbledore became Headmaster and Ogg
retired, he called Hagrid.

Exactly. Surely no-one would make Hagrid gamekeeper at the age of 13, no matter how big and beast-oriented he was.
Me again, oh God! But we *are* right, when re-reading CoS I found that Dumbledore (still as TF teacher) persuaded the Headmaster to keep hagrid and *train* him as a gamekeeper. Which, to my enormous relief, makes Molly weasley younger that 63 :) Susanna:
> Where are the other Potters?
Stephanie:
> And what happened to those O-so-supportive Lily/Petunia parents?

I think we're to presume that Voldemort polished off the lot looking for Harry, hence the great crowd Harry sees in the Mirror of Erised. Which would give Petunia still more reasons to be bitter about magic in general and Harry in particular: her sister's magical connection caused the death of all her and her husband's relatives.
Possible, but do you really think nobody would have told Harry about this? And, yet another thought, inspired by your mention of the mirror of Erised: Those people Harry saw must have been Potters, not Lily's family, who are Muggles and probably (???) wouldn't move on a wizard foto. So, where are Lily's Muggle parents, according to Petunia so proud of their witch daughter? Petunia would certainly have mentioned in one of her rants if *they* had all been killed! However*, does anyone else besides me feel faintly bothered by JKR's shameless partisanship for Gryffindor? Yes, I know she values bravery more highly than the virtues embodied in the other houses, but making all but a couple of the significant unambiguously "good" characters in the books Gryffindors strikes me as a touch housist (?). Are hard workers and those of "ready mind" really so intrinsically weak at Quidditch that they accept without question that the Cup is always a fight between Slytherin and Gryffindor (in which they of course support Gryffindor, the Good Guys)?? Don't Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff ever win the House Championship? Why don't Ravenclaws make up for lost Quidditch points by getting points for classwork? Hermione aside, you'd expect them to dominate in the top students of the year.

Speculations welcome...
You said it, your fault! Yes, JKR is in fact taking the Malfoy point of view about the houses- Hufflepuffs are useless anyway, just good workers and nothing else. LOL susanna/pigwidgeon37
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From jwh at comp.leeds.ac.uk Thu Jun 28 09:28:58 2001 From: jwh at comp.leeds.ac.uk (James Handley) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:28:58 +0100 Subject: musings about things, mostly PoA Chapter 17 In-Reply-To: <993650895.1575.47772.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21569 Zarleycat at aol.com wrote: > > Harry goes through an internal dialog about killing Crookshanks, > too. He tries to convince himself that Sirius deserves to die and > hears the voice in his head say, "Do it now" but doesn't act on that > command. Plus, Sirius tells him he doesn't know the whole story about > his parents' deaths. That pushes a button with Harry. Reading this made me think about the imperio curse.. perhaps scabbers could muster up enough magic to do half an imperio (because if Harry had killed Sirius, that could only be beneficial for scabbers and V.) I don't /really/ think that, but it's the thought that came to mind! :) J, From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 09:34:08 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:34:08 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: canon scar (was trailer) In-Reply-To: <12f.a4ed6b.286bdc68@cs.com> Message-ID: <9hetmg+tbq1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21570 Dixie Malfoy (I picture an American cousin, perhaps living in a trailer park, whom Lucius and Narcissa pretend doesn't exist) wrote: > On the USA Today website, they show several pictures from the trailer. Is > it just me, or does it bother anyone else that they moved Harry's scar from > the middle of his foredead to above his right eyebrow? Why couldn't they have > kept it in the middle? I dunno, go check out the pictures. It looks like it's > more to the side and they even mention something about it being moved. Yup, it's definitely over his right eyebrow and yup, it bothers me, but neither one of us has a canon leg to stand on, IIRC. I don't think the books ever say where on his forehead it is; they only say it's thin and "clearly visible through his hair" (PA 1), though it's clear elsewhere (e.g. in PS/SS) that people often miss it until he pushes his hair back. It's one of those things, like Harry's glasses being black, that has been portrayed so consistently by illustrators that it seems like canon, even though it's not. Amy Z --------------------------------------------- Professor Trelawney kept predicting Harry's death, which he found extremely annoying. -HP and the Goblet of Fire --------------------------------------------- From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 09:51:07 2001 From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth C) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:51:07 +1000 Subject: Trailer 2 question? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21571 Just a quick tech question - how do I save the second trailer (the Real Player version) to my computer? Ta, Liz xxx _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 10:07:14 2001 From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Lizzie) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:07:14 -0000 Subject: Trailer 2 question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9hevki+gne5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21572 I stand corrected. I mean I want the QUICKTIME version. Gahhh. Lx --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth C" wrote: > Just a quick tech question - how do I save the second trailer (the Real > Player version) to my computer? > > Ta, > Liz xxx > ______________________________________________________________________ ___ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From bsmjs at csu.edu Thu Jun 28 12:21:03 2001 From: bsmjs at csu.edu (M.J. Stallworth) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:21:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer question In-Reply-To: <200106280518.AAA19963@academic1.csu.edu> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010628004313.05274620@pop.earthlink.net> <9hecga+9320@eGroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21573 I've got it! I've got it! The 2nd trailer has joined the first on my desktop, and is already in heavy rotation. Snape - that voice...... ohhhhhh *shudders and melts* I'd always been intrigued by Snape...wondering what his whole backstory was....but Rickman as Snape...MMMMMMmmmmm I'm now in a quandrangular love affair with Snape, Lupin, and Black. I love them each for different qualities....but the common thread is that each has shown himself noble while still harboring a scary dark side. I guess I like the scary dark sides. BTW it took 47 minutes to load on my pc...and I waited. Cafe Latte **************************************************************************** ************************* I wont have this namby- pamby, wishy- washy nonsense about not hitting people who deserve it - Aunt Marge Unicorn Hair, Mahogany, 8 inches **************************************************************************** ************************** From bsmjs at csu.edu Thu Jun 28 12:32:33 2001 From: bsmjs at csu.edu (M.J. Stallworth) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:32:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trailer 2 question? In-Reply-To: <9hevki+gne5@eGroups.com> References: Message-ID: <200106281228.HAA02279@academic1.csu.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 21574 Liz, If you've played the QT version from the HP website, you should have the trailer somewhere on your computer. What you do is click FIND on your start menu, and then click FILES OR FOLDERS. >From there, search for files created during the last day. Just look for a huge .mov file (a little over 10 megs). Move it to where you want it, rename it if you want (but don't change the file extension)...and vi-o-lay! you have the trailer whenever you want to play it. Cafe Latte At 05:07 AM 6/28/01 , Liz wrote: >I stand corrected. I mean I want the QUICKTIME version. Gahhh. >Lx > >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth C" wrote: >> Just a quick tech question - how do I save the second trailer (the >Real >> Player version) to my computer? >> >> Ta, >> Liz xxx >> >______________________________________________________________________ **************************************************************************** ************************* I wont have this namby- pamby, wishy- washy nonsense about not hitting people who deserve it - Aunt Marge Unicorn Hair, Mahogany, 8 inches **************************************************************************** ************************** From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 12:51:47 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:51:47 -0000 Subject: Heraldry Class/Bad Amy! was Another motto question In-Reply-To: <3B2EC8AA.259C299F@texas.net> Message-ID: <9hf993+mjp4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21575 > Amy Z wrote: > > > Now I have a motto question. Who drew the crest? JKR herself? The > > book covers don't say. > > Amy, for shame. You have sat through Amanda Binns' Lectures on Heraldry. > Fifty points from your house. (1) This is not a motto question, it asks > nothing about the motto. (2) :::more attentive students chorus:::"Nor is > it a CREST. It is a coat of arms." I humbly bash myself over the head with a saucepan for my inattentiveness in Heraldry. Everyone has his/her zone-out class, even Hermione--I guess this one is mine. However, the post WAS about the motto, albeit so badly written so that it is perfectly understandable that you might miss that fact. If JKR didn't draw the COAT OF ARMS, did she invent the motto and tell it to the artist? I.e., what I really want to know is: is "Nunquam etc." canon or not? This is a very important matter for the L.O.O.N. files. Amy Z --------------------------------------- If only the hat had mentioned a house for people who felt a bit queasy, that would have been the one for him. --HP and the Philosopher's Stone --------------------------------------- From bsmjs at csu.edu Thu Jun 28 12:57:41 2001 From: bsmjs at csu.edu (M.J. Stallworth) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:57:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter/Scabbers In-Reply-To: <20010628084734.45948.qmail@web9208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200106281253.HAA03116@academic1.csu.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 21576 Hi Joy, I'm a newbie too, and I think that's an excellent idea! I wouldn't worry about it being 'obvious', as Rowling has at times been rather obvious in her naming (e.g. Argus Filch, Remus Lupin, Sirius Black).... Cafe Latte At 03:47 AM 6/28/01 , you wrote: >Peter Pettigrew is said to be, I believe, a fellow who >basically cannot risk his life for the Greater Good. >He would rather join the powerful evil forces than be >killed by them.? > >Likewise, those people who would break the strike and >go to work for the "evil" management rather than risk >their own livelihood for the Greater Good...are also >known as "scabs." > >scabs...scabbers... > >Am I reaching here? > >Actually, now that I'm typing this out, it seems a bit >too obvious that I don't trust it to be legitimate >speculation.? I'm sure y'all have discussed it to >death...I apologize now and hope someone can direct me >to the relevant thread.? :D > >-joy the lemur > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail >http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > >_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ > >All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. > >Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group /HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. > >(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > **************************************************************************** ************************* I won?t have this namby- pamby, wishy- washy nonsense about not hitting people who deserve it - Aunt Marge Unicorn Hair, Mahogany, 8 inches **************************************************************************** ************************** From reanna20 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 12:59:23 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 05:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] MOVIE: Trailer: moving staircase In-Reply-To: <9hebep+990u@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010628125923.98919.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21577 --- Scott wrote: > 4. The moving staircase looks a little, uh...dangerous. I know they > move but this makes it look as though one could easily fall to ones > death. I didn't think they were quite so risky. (are they supposed to > be?) In my mind, I've always thought the moving staircases didn't move with people on them. I thought it was more of one day the staircase is there, the next it may be somewhere else. Or one day the staircase would lead to Trelawney's classroom and the next day it would lead to the prefect's bathroom. But I don't think there is any firm canon evidence that it is one instance or the other, or both. I think it looks dangerous too. But there's probably magic on them to prevent students from falling. An invisible safety net or a 'Stay on the darn stairs' Charm. ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/21/2001 "It never happened if there is no memory of it. Human memory is just a record. You can rewrite the record." - Serial Experiments Lain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 13:07:35 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:07:35 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: moving staircase In-Reply-To: <20010628125923.98919.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hfa6n+r2n0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21578 Scott wrote: > > 4. The moving staircase looks a little, uh...dangerous. I know they > > move but this makes it look as though one could easily fall to ones > > death. I didn't think they were quite so risky. (are they supposed to > > be?) Amber wrote: > In my mind, I've always thought the moving staircases didn't move with > people on them. I thought it was more of one day the staircase is > there, the next it may be somewhere else. Or one day the staircase > would lead to Trelawney's classroom and the next day it would lead to > the prefect's bathroom. That's what I pictured too. But they do have to move at some particular moment, a moment at which, if you're very unlucky (e.g., your name is Neville), you might be standing on them. I've been waiting since book 1 for the moving staircases to be a plot point. Just a small thing, like Harry really needs to get somewhere in a hurry and the *&#%$ staircase isn't where he expects it to be. Amy Z who will forgive JKR if it never happens From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 28 13:38:52 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:38:52 -0000 Subject: Another motto question In-Reply-To: <9hf993+mjp4@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hfc1c+n4kf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21579 "Amy Z" wrote: If JKR > didn't draw the COAT OF ARMS, did she invent the motto and tell it to > the artist? I.e., what I really want to know is: is "Nunquam etc." > canon or not? This is a very important matter for the L.O.O.N. files. > > Amy Z And if it is canon, why isn't it on the US editions? I had assumed it is canon, and that, when I put down Book 7, I will strike my forehead and say 'It's all obvious - if only I'd thought for two seconds about the motto, the whole plot development would have been clear'. David "Never touch the magazines in Draco's dorm" From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 13:43:15 2001 From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:43:15 -0000 Subject: Trailer question In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010628004313.05274620@pop.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <9hfc9j+ieup@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21580 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "B.K. DeLong" wrote: > At 04:40 AM 06/28/2001 +0000, you wrote: > >Spoiler > > > > > >Space > > > > > >For > > > > > >Those > > > > > >of > > > > > >you > > > > > >who > > > > > >havent > > > > > >seen > > > > > >it > > > > > >yet > > > > > >There is a very brief shot, towards the end of the new trailer, that > >looks like an explosion or maybe something made of stone falling over > >and crashing. It is just after the brief scene of Hagrid on the > >flying motorbike and just before the shot of Mr. Ollivander. Does > >anyone know what that scene is supposed to be? > > I'm PRETTY sure it's this: > > "Harry -- move diagonally four squares to the right." > > Their first real shock came when their other knight was > taken. The white queen smashed him to the floor and dragged him > off the board, where he lay quite still, facedown. > > "Had to let that happen," said Ron, looking shaken. "Leaves > you free to take that bishop, Hermione, go on." > > >Also, I know a lot of people are upset because Harrys scar is not in > >the middle of his forehead, but does it ever actually say in the > >books that that is where the scar is supposed to be? IIRC, the books > >just say that he has a scar ON his forehead. Maybe we have just > >assumed it is in the middle because of the artwork. I am more > >bothered by the fact that Harrys hair looks brown, rather than black. > > Then I suggest you read this: > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2001_06_24_archive.html#4278308 > > THANKS AMANDA! > > > -- > B.K. DeLong > > The Harry Potter Galleries > http://www.hpgalleries.com/ > > Editor-in-Chief > The Leaky Cauldron News section > bkdelong at t... > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ > +1.617.877.3271 Actually, it's Ron. He is riding on a stone horse (the horse is what is crushed) - this is the part where he sacrifices himself to get Harry and Hermione across the board. (You can see the red hair.) ;o) - Jamie From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 14:05:06 2001 From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:05:06 -0000 Subject: Trailer question In-Reply-To: <9hfc9j+ieup@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hfdii+ifeo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21581 > > Actually, it's Ron. He is riding on a stone horse (the horse is what > is crushed) - this is the part where he sacrifices himself to get > Harry and Hermione across the board. (You can see the red hair.) ;o) > > - Jamie Hey. Here - I took some stills since this scene is pretty hard to see in real player. http://www.geocities.com/beyondthelamppost/ron.html From a_serber at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 15:49:20 2001 From: a_serber at yahoo.com (a_serber at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:49:20 -0000 Subject: new trailer Message-ID: <9hfjm0+10299@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21582 please also visit and look around http://serberinc.epinions.com/user-avi1020 the link to the new trailer http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/dailyprophet/article.jsp? id=trailer2 thanks, Avi From litalex at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 15:57:45 2001 From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:57:45 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Another motto question References: <9hfc1c+n4kf@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <00bb01c0ffeb$138d5200$1706bacb@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 21583 Hello, From: > And if it is canon, why isn't it on the US editions? 'Cause Scholastic is being stupid? Oh, how I love my UK versions (now that I've bought them in Hong Kong...). Though, I find it strange that both Taiwan and mainland China translated from the USA version instead of the Brit one. > strike my forehead and say 'It's all obvious - if only I'd thought > for two seconds about the motto, the whole plot development would > have been clear'. Draco Malfoy little Alex _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From mariannayus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 16:04:46 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: USA Today Link In-Reply-To: <9hea1k+f9ao@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010628160446.74356.qmail@web14408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21584 """"""" Up, up and away > Unlike Neville, seen here, Harry Potter has never been the star of > a Quidditch team, scoring points while riding a broom far above the > ground. When Harry begins life at Hogwart`s, he knows no spells and > has never helped catch a dragon, an important event in a wizard`s > life."""""""" LOL! *Image of Neville catching a dragon* No doubt done between winning Quidditch matches. I honestly laughed at that caption. Thatnks!!! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From irbohlen at email.unc.edu Thu Jun 28 16:46:31 2001 From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:46:31 -0000 Subject: Trailer question -- Mac users? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010628004313.05274620@pop.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <9hfn17+dg5n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21585 Can somebody help Mac/Internet Explorer/Quicktime users to download the trailer? I can't find downloading as an option, and we Mac users don't have "right-click" buttons...[just hockey pucks! :)] Many thanks! Ivis From oppen at cnsinternet.com Thu Jun 28 16:54:25 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:54:25 -0500 Subject: Two questions answered, one rather OT: Message-ID: <007c01c0fff2$fd55c8c0$c9c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 21586 First off, the name "Ku Klux Klan" derives from the Greek word "kuklos," meaning "circle," and "clan," referring to the original members all being of Scots descent, which was a status symbol in the Old South, largely due to the Sir Walter Scott novels. A lot of the South's sillier attitudes came from reading the "Waverley" novels, practically memorizing them, and mentally casting themselves as the heroes. Secondly, as far as the "visit from the MoM enforcers" scene goes---I never even knew there _was_ such a Python sketch. Python was thin on the ground when I was growing up. Come to it, I wonder what the Pythons would be like if _they_ were wizards? I could see them as a wizard comedy troupe, greatly in demand in the magical world. Of course, if they were, er, "incautious" enough to do skits that seriously irritated He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, they might have had "accidents" themselves..."shocking, how they mis-Apparated so spectacularly. Showing up, starkers, in Holloway Prison...before the guards could rescue them, they were literally drained of life!" Eric Oppen Gryffindor, but with strong Ravenclaw sympathies, and a sneaking liking for the Slytherins---hey, two hundred or more kids can't _all_ be bad, we just see the ones that are because JKR wants us to. Redwood, phoenix feather, eight-and-a-half inches. "Elder gods? Old Ones? Bunch of hooey! Hastur, Hastur, Hastur! See, nothing happ---" From joym999 at aol.com Thu Jun 28 16:57:23 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:57:23 -0000 Subject: Peter/Scabbers In-Reply-To: <20010628084734.45948.qmail@web9208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hfnlj+clhe@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21587 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Joy the Lemur wrote: > > Peter Pettigrew is said to be, I believe, a fellow who > basically cannot risk his life for the Greater Good. > He would rather join the powerful evil forces than be > killed by them. > > Likewise, those people who would break the strike and > go to work for the "evil" management rather than risk > their own livelihood for the Greater Good...are also > known as "scabs." > > scabs...scabbers... > > Am I reaching here? > > Actually, now that I'm typing this out, it seems a bit > too obvious that I don't trust it to be legitimate > speculation. I'm sure y'all have discussed it to > death...I apologize now and hope someone can direct me > to the relevant thread. :D Actually, that is a very good catch which IIRC no one on this group has ever noticed before, so there are no relevant threads. Scabbers is indeed a scab, breaking the "union" of the Marauders. Thanks very much, Ms. Lemur. --Joywitch From linman6868 at aol.com Thu Jun 28 17:13:01 2001 From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 17:13:01 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: moving staircase In-Reply-To: <9hfa6n+r2n0@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hfoit+l9cd@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21588 Amy Z wrote: > > That's what I pictured too. But they do have to move at some > particular moment, a moment at which, if you're very unlucky (e.g., > your name is Neville), you might be standing on them. > > I've been waiting since book 1 for the moving staircases to be a plot > point. Just a small thing, like Harry really needs to get somewhere > in a hurry and the *&#%$ staircase isn't where he expects it to be. > > Amy Z > who will forgive JKR if it never happens Does the trick step in "The Egg and the Eye" chapter of GoF count? Lisa I. who now, BTW, thanks to Rita, wishes they would start a band program at Hogwarts, if only so that we can see Ron empty the spit valve of his magical trombone onto Lavender Brown's foot... From joym999 at aol.com Thu Jun 28 18:11:13 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 18:11:13 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: moving staircase In-Reply-To: <9hfoit+l9cd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hfs01+coq8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21589 OK, maybe I am just a hopeless curmudgeon (as if there is really any "maybe" about it) but the moving staircase in the trailer really bothered me. It seemed so cheesy; I mean they have gazillions of dollars worth of special effects equipment and the best they could come up with is a staircase with a motor in it? Go ahead, roll your eyes at me. --Joywitch From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 18:10:33 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 18:10:33 -0000 Subject: Two questions answered, one rather OT: In-Reply-To: <007c01c0fff2$fd55c8c0$c9c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9hfrup+opga@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21590 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > Secondly, as far as the "visit from the MoM enforcers" scene goes---I never > even knew there _was_ such a Python sketch. Python was thin on the ground > when I was growing up. > "NOBODY EXPECTS THE MoM ENFORCERS!!!" (with apologies to Monty Python and their Spanish Inquisition sketch) Haggridd From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com Thu Jun 28 18:43:20 2001 From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 18:43:20 -0000 Subject: In defense of JKR's view of Hufflepuff and (to a lesser degree) Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <20010628092517.7618.qmail@web14706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hfts9+fnla@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21591 I have to defend JKR's stance on Hufflepuff for a moment here. I think the whole "Hufflepuff are duffers" thing is thrown out there to show us that this is what people generally believe about hard workers, that they are too stupid to be anywhere better. I think that JKR is gently unraveling that stereotype for us, by showing us that there is much more to them than that. Bear with me while I think of examples. The only Hufflepuffs we know to a certain degree are Professor Sprout, Ernie MacMillan, Justin Finch-Fletchley, and Cedric Diggory. The first time Hufflepuff is mentioned is when Draco Malfoy scoffs at it, and Hagrid tells Harry better Hufflepuff than Slytherin; so we get the impression that Hufflepuff is only better by virtue of it being relatively slightly better than Slytherin. Everyone else seems to value Gryffindor or Ravenclaw, unless they want to be in Slytherin, and in that case, it seems to be Slytherin or Ravenclaw. Never Hufflepuff. Professor Sprout: the only time we really see her in action is in CoS when she's bandaging up the Whomping Willow and looking "disgruntled" by Lockhart's attempts to prove that he knows more about it than she does. This can be compared to Hagrid's reaction when Lockhart's trying to tell him something about kelpies, Hagrid tells him that Harry is more famous than him without even trying, and that he never read any of Lockhart's books. Second reaction is Snape's when Lockhart offers to brew the mandrake potion: "`Excuse me,' said Snape icily, `but I believe I am the Potions master at this school.'" Professor Sprout is calmer than these two and knows that Lockhart doesn't know his stuff, but does not feel the need to tell him that. She ignores him and calmly goes about her business "Greenhouse Three today, chaps!" Whatever way you admire the most (Hagrid's or Snape's or Sprout's) is down to personal preference. However her way of dealing with it is just as effective, if different and not as sexy/glamourous/slimy/what-have-you (Snape) or speaking their mind (Hagrid). I think JKR *is* showing that. The description of her is as follows, "Professor Sprout was a squat little witch who wore a patched hat over her flyaway hair, there was usually a large amount of earth on her clothes, and her fingernails would have made Aunt Petunia faint. Gilderoy Lockhart, however, was immaculate in sweeping robes of turquoise, his golden hair shining under a perfectly positioned turquoise hat with gold trimming." She is later on described as usually being "cheerful." This passage, and the section when she deals with mandrakes tells us that she is extraordinarily good and passionate about her subject (Snape's "stopper death, brew glory" speech aside, this is a more subtle way of showing that she is as skilled in her subject as Snape, McGonagall, and Flitwick are in theirs.) The obvious contrast to Lockhart in physical appearance also shows that she is not afraid of getting on her hands and knees and working in the dirt etc, whereas Lockhart is more interested in the superficialities of his appearance. The second thing this passage tells us is that she is more sensible than Molly Weasley and Hermione, in not falling for the charms of Lockhart (and they are two of the most sensible characters in the books!) The other thing that Sprout does is she gives twenty points to Gryffindor (in two ten-point installments) because Hermione answers her questions correctly. No house prejudice here; she gives the points to the house of the student who has clearly done her homework. Snape would probably ignore Hermione and wait for a Slytherin to answer the question, and McGonagall tends to be a bit harder on Gryffindor than the other heads of houses are with their own houses. Sprout is a very fair professor. Don't forget also in GoF, fake Moody tells Neville that Professor Sprout mentioned that Neville was good in Herbology (even if he did tell Neville that on the pretext of giving him the Mediterranean plants book, I think that Sprout probably did mention that at some point, which is very nice of her.) Next Hufflepuff is Ernie MacMillan. Yes he and the other Hufflepuffs believe Harry is the Heir of Slytherin and he seems to be the ringleader of their conspiracy theory group. However even though he really believes that Harry is opening the Chamber, he is not afraid to tell him this to his face. He doesn't lie or cower or deny having said anything, he tells Harry all the `proof' that he has that indicates that Harry is the Heir. He is worried about his fellow house-mate Justin, and tells him to hide in the dormitory. He obviously was mistaken in following the crowd that point fingers at Harry, but when Hermione is attacked, Ernie apologizes: "Ernie took a deep breath and said, very formally, `I just want to say, Harry, that I'm sorry I ever suspected you. I know you'd never attack Hermione Granger, and I apologise for all the stuff I said. We're all in the same boat now, and, well-.' He held out a pudgy hand, and Harry shook it." How fair is that? He admits that he was mistaken, and he is not afraid to face up to that. For a twelve-year old boy, that is quite impressive. Justin Finch-Fletchley: "Harry didn't know whether the best bit was Hermione running towards him, screaming, `You solved it! You solved it!' or Justin hurrying over from the Hufflepuff table to wring his hand and apologise endlessly for suspecting him " Again, we see the nobility and fairness of Hufflepuff. The other time that we see Hufflepuff portrayed `badly' is in GoF. Right after Harry's name came out of the Goblet of Fire there is an entire passage about the Hufflepuffs and how they are rude to him (particularly Ernie and Justin) in a Herbology lesson. To be fair, *everyone* thought Harry had put his name in the goblet, with the exception of Hagrid, Dumbledore and Hermione. The Weasleys believe he put his name in it, and so do the other champions and the other judges. Plus the Hufflepuffs had the glory that would have been theirs (by having a Hufflepuff the sole Hogwarts champion) taken away from them. It might not have been the most mature way to act, but it is perfectly understandable, and I think even Harry admits that to himself in GoF. Finally Cedric Diggory. There is no doubt that he is one of the most decent and bravest characters in the books. When he beats Gryffindor in Quidditch he asks for a rematch because he hadn't seen Harry fall off his broom. I can't see anyone in Slytherin doing that. When he is about to win the Cup he insists that Harry take it, because Harry saved his life twice in the maze. "He stepped over the spider's tangled legs to join Harry, who stared at him. Cedric was serious. He was walking away from the sort of glory Hufflepuff house hadn't had in centuries. `Go on,' Cedric said. He looked as though this was costing him every ounce of resolution he had, but his face was set, his arms were folded, he seemed decided." I don't think I need to emphasize Cedric's qualities further. His actions speak for themselves. The only Ravenclaw we really `know' is Cho. I think she's a character portrayed in a very good light. Even though she is Cedric's girlfriend (we don't know that she was his girlfriend at the time that Harry's name came out of the goblet, but she may very well have been) she does not wear the "Potter Stinks" badge like most other students do. When Harry asks her to the ball, she does not laugh at him. When he asks her for a word, her friends giggle, but she doesn't even wink back at them, she takes him seriously and she acts maturely. In the Quidditch match, I don't believe that she purposely pointed out the fake dementors to make him lose the match, I think she was worried that he would fall off his broom again (but that's entirely speculation.) Professor Flitwick is another Ravenclaw portrayed in a positive light. As for the question about why Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw stand by while Gryffindor and Slytherin have it out in Quidditch, I don't think that's the case. It is only at the end of the year when the final match has proven to be between Gryffindor and Slytherin, do they seem resigned to their fate. And then they support Gryffindor probably because Slytherin has been cheating at Quidditch all year. I think it also emphasizes how good the Gryffindor and Slytherin Quidditch house teams are. I understand what you mean by `housism' and although it is glaringly obvious that JKR emphatically prefers Gryffindor above all, I think she subtly shows the good in all the houses. With the exception of Slytherin, and even there we see how cool and complex Snape is. I'm waiting to see more interesting students from Slytherin too. Still I think that house exposure is limited to Gryffindor and Slytherin because it is Harry's story and those are the houses that affect him the most. Also there are space constraints in the book, I don't know how much she can talk about other students without each book being a thousand pages long. That's why I like these small tidbits about Ernie and Cho and Cedric that show their Hufflepuff- ness or Ravenclaw-ness in action. If you read this far, thanks! 50 points to whatever house you associate yourself with! From kabuki_darling at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 19:03:59 2001 From: kabuki_darling at hotmail.com (Sylph ~*~) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:03:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA Chapter 17+MOVIE: Trailer opinions+Boggarts+Various Ramblings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21592 I think maybe someone already reponded, but one of the questions for >the last chapter summeries was about whether Harry's boggart was >still a dementor at the end of PoA? I'd assume yes since it was still >a dementor and the third task in GoF. The lingering question is why. >Why would the Dementor still be Harry's fear when he has the power of >the patronus over it? We have to assume the Boggart can't change of >over time, or to assume it can for that matter. So why in GoF is >Harry still most afraid of the Dementor? Because even the patronus >doesn't calm his fears? Because it was a fast moving section and JKR >didn't feel like being very origninal or distracting to the plot at >that point? Hmmm... > Well, remember what Lupin said when Harry told him what he feared most. "That's very wise...it suggests that what you fear most is - fear itself." That's not exact quote. The dementor wasn't really about his parents, it was really just about being afraid. Hmm...am I making much sense? > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From kabuki_darling at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 19:08:54 2001 From: kabuki_darling at hotmail.com (Sylph ~*~) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:08:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21593 >Also, I know a lot of people are upset because Harrys scar is not in >the middle of his forehead, but does it ever actually say in the >books that that is where the scar is supposed to be? IIRC, the books >just say that he has a scar ON his forehead. Maybe we have just >assumed it is in the middle because of the artwork. I am more >bothered by the fact that Harrys hair looks brown, rather than black. > >--Joywitch Sorry I can't answer your actual question :) The scar shoudl be in the middle, though, it looks more proportioned that way. I'm bothered too by the actors' hair...besides Harry's brown hair, Hermione's hair is blonde, and not as bushy as I'd like. And Ron is SHORTER than Harry! They've always described Harry as a midget...well, at least shorter than Ron. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 19:20:47 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:20:47 -0000 Subject: moving staircase (not only MOVIE) In-Reply-To: <9hfoit+l9cd@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hg02f+626f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21594 I wrote: > > I've been waiting since book 1 for the moving staircases to be a > plot > > point. Lisa asked: > Does the trick step in "The Egg and the Eye" chapter of GoF count? Not quite, but it's just the kind of thing I mean. She tells us about the trick step in PS/SS, IIRC, reminds us of it at the start of the school year in GF by having Neville get stuck in it (I love the laughing armor and Ron's response to it), and then voila, it becomes a really important device. I'm wondering if the moving staircases will be used in a similar way. BTW, on a tangent, I just noticed the apparent throwaway line "Harry was getting very good at [Expelliarmus]" on the train home in CoS. Not at all a throwaway, as it turns out, but an Important Fact to Keep in Mind Two Books Hence. Joywitch, I can't properly judge the movie stairs's cheese factor because this bit is very rough on the only trailer version I've been able to get, but they did look pretty cheesy from what I could see. Amy Z From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 28 19:22:00 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:22:00 -0000 Subject: Two questions answered, one rather OT: In-Reply-To: <9hfrup+opga@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hg04o+5pjh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21595 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Haggridd" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > > > > Secondly, as far as the "visit from the MoM enforcers" scene > goes---I never > > even knew there _was_ such a Python sketch. Python was thin on the > ground > > when I was growing up. > > > "NOBODY EXPECTS THE MoM ENFORCERS!!!" (with apologies to Monty Python > and their Spanish Inquisition sketch) > > Haggridd I'm so sorry for the brevity of this message, but I am laughing out loud! Thanks Haggridd! Catherine From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:28:52 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of JKR's view of Hufflepuff and (to a lesser degree) Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <9hfts9+fnla@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010628192852.50465.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21596 --- hfakhro at nyc.rr.com wrote: > If you read this far, thanks! 50 points to whatever > house you associate yourself with! Hummm...well HarryPotter.com says I'm Slytherin. Are you sure you want to give that many points away? :D Actually you make some good points that I have to agree with. I'd completely forgotten about Finch-Fletchley apologizing to Harry at the end of CoS (Now I have to go dig my book out and read it again). You're right also in saying that the books are from Harry's POV so he would be more concerned with the Houses that affect him the most. I don't think we have even heard of any of them taking any classes with the Ravenclaws and only Herbology with Hufflepuff so there doesn't seem to be much interaction with them anyway. OTOH they do have both Potions and Care of Magical Creatures and in first year Flying Lessons with the Sytherins so we hear more about them. Just MHO. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mariannayus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:29:26 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Two questions answered, one rather OT: In-Reply-To: <007c01c0fff2$fd55c8c0$c9c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <20010628192926.50575.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21597 --- Eric Oppen wrote: > First off, the name "Ku Klux Klan" derives from the > Greek word "kuklos," > meaning "circle," and "clan," referring to the > original members all being of > Scots descent another reason that I've heard is that Ku Klux is the sound the rifle makes when you pull the trigger. Marsha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:30:59 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010628193059.769.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21598 --- Sylph ~*~ wrote: > > Sorry I can't answer your actual question :) The > scar shoudl be in the > middle, though, it looks more proportioned that way. > I'm bothered too by the > actors' hair...besides Harry's brown hair, > Hermione's hair is blonde, and > not as bushy as I'd like. And Ron is SHORTER than > Harry! They've always > described Harry as a midget...well, at least shorter > than Ron. > I hadn't noticed that but you are right they do say (in the books) that Ron is taller, if not by a lot at least by a noticable amount than Harry. Maybe they couldn't find an actor that fit that criteria? Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mariannayus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:43:41 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why was Harry sent to live with the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010628194341.2907.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21599 It just struck me today on the umpteenth reread of SS/PS. Hagrid brings baby Harry and deposits him on the Durleys' doorstep. The question is, why wasn't Harry left with Sirius? After all, he was the one who was HP's godfather, and I think, guardian. And it is not because of his being "evil Voldemort supporter." At least at the time of the Potters' house blast, no one seems to think of him as a traitor. Hagrid borrows his bike (and he says he got it from "young Sirius Black" which does not seem the way to refer to a murderer), and later in PoA, he talks about how he comforted "the filthy traitor" (presumably when got the bike). So, why leave young Harry with two nasty, Muggle people who clearly do not want him, and not with Sirius, who is a wizard, and Potters' best friend. More than that, he's HP's guardian, so would have the legal rights. Yet the thought does not seem to occur to anyone (and as for protection Dumbledore cast around Dursleys, unless it's something he could only do with the family with Lily's blood), I am sure he could do it around Sirius' house (whatever that may be). Besides, at that moment, there is every indication LV is gone forever. I understand that Sirius was in no condition that night to either take HP, or ask to take him (he was probably on auto-pilot and shock), but it's strange that no one else seems to think twice on leaving HP with the Dursleys. And no, I do not think "he would have a big head if he was brought up in the magical world" counts as a sufficient excuse. Not when going against the Potters' clear wishes, that are put in legal form. Marsha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 19:48:04 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:48:04 -0000 Subject: House-elves' transport revisited In-Reply-To: <9h8so9+2nm9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hg1lk+9jaf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21600 Caius Marcius wrote: > House-elves can perform a magic more powerful than humans, including > apparation to and from locations like Hogwarts. Dobby's disappearances are even marked by an unusual sound (a "crack" instead of a "pop"), as if to let us know that what he's doing isn't the same as Disapparating. Lest anyone find it improbable that house-elves can get around Hogwarts' anti-Disapparition charms, the scene referred to (with Lucius Malfoy at the end of CoS) shows that Dobby, once released, is much more powerful than a wizard. All he has to do is point a finger and LM slinks off. This may be raw magical power or just authority-- perhaps the taboo against contradicting the wish of one's ex-house- elf is so strong that even LM won't break it. I lean toward the former, however. Amy Z From megrose_13 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 19:53:07 2001 From: megrose_13 at yahoo.com (Meg Rose) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:53:07 -0000 Subject: Why was Harry sent to live with the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <20010628194341.2907.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hg1v3+76j9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21601 Well, they couldn't leave HArry with SB because he was locked up and sent to Azkaban... Most people thought he was still guilty and wouldn't want the (wizarding) world's most famous celebrity staying with a convicted felon... From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 20:01:06 2001 From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:01:06 -0000 Subject: Why was Harry sent to live with the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <20010628194341.2907.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hg2e2+qkgi@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21602 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Marianna Lvovsky wrote: > It just struck me today on the umpteenth reread of > SS/PS. > > Hagrid brings baby Harry and deposits him on the > Durleys' doorstep. The question is, why wasn't Harry > left with Sirius? After all, he was the one who was > HP's godfather, and I think, guardian. > > And it is not because of his being "evil Voldemort > supporter." At least at the time of the Potters' house > blast, no one seems to think of him as a traitor. > Hagrid borrows his bike (and he says he got it from > "young Sirius Black" which does not seem the way to > refer to a murderer), and later in PoA, he talks about > how he comforted "the filthy traitor" (presumably when > got the bike). > > So, why leave young Harry with two nasty, Muggle > people who clearly do not want him, and not with > Sirius, who is a wizard, and Potters' best friend. > More than that, he's HP's guardian, so would have the > legal rights. Yet the thought does not seem to occur > to anyone (and as for protection Dumbledore cast > around Dursleys, unless it's something he could only > do with the family with Lily's blood), I am sure he > could do it around Sirius' house (whatever that may > be). Besides, at that moment, there is every > indication LV is gone forever. > > I understand that Sirius was in no condition that > night to either take HP, or ask to take him (he was > probably on auto-pilot and shock), but it's strange > that no one else seems to think twice on leaving HP > with the Dursleys. > > And no, I do not think "he would have a big head if he > was brought up in the magical world" counts as a > sufficient excuse. Not when going against the Potters' > clear wishes, that are put in legal form. > > Marsha > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Hey Marsha! I think you are onto a lot of stuff here. First you hit the $10,000 question of why put Harry with the Dursley's. ;o) All we know is that Voldemort tells Harry in GoF that, because of some ancient magic invoked by Dumbledore, he cannot touch Harry while he is with his relatives. I don't have a direct quote (Sorry. I'm at work.), but it is my impression that there are no more Potter's.(Sirius refers to Harry as the last of the Potter's in the Shrieking Shack.) So, I'm not sure if it's a matter of Petunia being related to Lily as much as it's that the Durlsey's are Harry's *only* living relations and that Harry must live with his relations in order for the spell to work. But I think you are right in that Harry should have legally been given to Sirius. However, it was known (to those deciding Harry's fate) that Sirius was James's secret keeper - so that would explain some of the mistrust, but I also don't believe that Dumbledore has ever thought that Voldemort was destroyed - defeated perhaps, but not finished off, hence the protective spell he put on Harry. So he was probably reading the signs and being (wisely) cautious. However, I am with you in that I totally disagree with "he would have a big head if he was brought up in the magical world." I believe if there had been a better way that he would have been put elsewhere, but *alas!* we have a long time before we find out why. ;o) - Jamie From f95lean at dd.chalmers.se Thu Jun 28 20:02:44 2001 From: f95lean at dd.chalmers.se (Lea Niiniskorpi) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 22:02:44 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why was Harry sent to live with the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <20010628194341.2907.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21603 On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Marianna Lvovsky wrote: > Hagrid brings baby Harry and deposits him on the > Durleys' doorstep. The question is, why wasn't Harry > left with Sirius? After all, he was the one who was > HP's godfather, and I think, guardian. Perhaps they thought that his aunt (who also had a baby) had better chances to take care of a baby. -- // Lea From JenniferABacker at cs.com Thu Jun 28 20:07:23 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:07:23 EDT Subject: About Precy in the trailer Message-ID: <35.1727e118.286ce87b@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21604 Does anyone know where more wavs/mp3s of the trailer [preferably Percy] are? All I have is Alan and I listened to that 50+ times already. I want more, especially of Percy! Let me know please ;) From catz109 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 20:14:37 2001 From: catz109 at hotmail.com (catz109 at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:14:37 -0000 Subject: Why was Harry sent to live with the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9hg37d+n5pr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21605 Besides, Sirius was going to be found guilty of murder, so Harry wouldn't have been able to live with him for long. http://harryshouse.cjb.net --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Lea Niiniskorpi wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, Marianna Lvovsky wrote: > > > Hagrid brings baby Harry and deposits him on the > > Durleys' doorstep. The question is, why wasn't Harry > > left with Sirius? After all, he was the one who was > > HP's godfather, and I think, guardian. > > Perhaps they thought that his aunt (who also had a baby) had better > chances to take care of a baby. > > -- > // Lea From joym999 at aol.com Thu Jun 28 20:26:45 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:26:45 -0000 Subject: more trailer blather Message-ID: <9hg3u6+iiml@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21606 I downloaded the Quiktime version of the trailer and I have a few more observations: S P S O P I A L C E E R In the Great Hall scene where Hedwig delivers the broom to Harry, if you watch the Quiktime version, you see that the broom IS wrapped up, in brown paper, although it is very obviously a broom. Also in that scene, the kid sitting to the right of Ron ducks as Hedwig dives in. Not very brave for a Gryffindor. In the brief scene of Dumbledore at the table McGonagal and Flitwick are on his right and there is a black woman (witch, I suppose I should say) wearing a pointy hat on his left. Who is she? Do we know this actress? I guess she is supposed to be one of the professors we never meet, maybe Vector. In the 2nd scene in the Forbidden Forest it looks like a dark shadowy figure is gliding and then leaning over what looks like a dead horse ? is this our first glimpse of Voldy? Pretty creepy. Neville has his fists up at the beginning of the "Petrificus Totalus" scene. Cute. Poor Neville. In the first Great Hall scene, the one that is also in the 1st trailer of the first years walking in for the Sorting Ceremony, the non-first year students are wearing pointy hats. Later, there is one brief scene of a group of students walking in the corridor, just before the Fluffy scene. It looks like the older student (Percy?), who is leading a group of younger students, may be wearing a pointy hat. Otherwise, in none of the other scenes do any of the students ever wear their hats. But isn't the hat part of the Hogwarts uniform? I guess the film makers decided they would look stupid so they would just to use them for special occasions, except for McGonagal who always wears hers. As further evidence of my previous comment that the special effects for the moving staircase scene are cheesy, I want to point out that it takes place in a huge stairwell with hundreds of paintings on the wall, none of which are moving. BTW, I am having a problem with the Quiktime version. The audio is lagging a few seconds behind the video, although if I pause it and then restart they are in sync for a few seconds, then the audio starts to lag again. Is this fixable? Other than this problem, the Quiktime version is far superior in quality to the Realtime version. --Joywitch From mariannayus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 20:35:45 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why was Harry sent to live with the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <9hg1v3+76j9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010628203545.40774.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21607 --- Meg Rose wrote: > Well, they couldn't leave HArry with SB because he > was locked up and > sent to Azkaban... Most people thought he was still > guilty and > wouldn't want the (wizarding) world's most famous > celebrity staying > with a convicted felon... > > But taking Harry to the Dursleys was BEFORE everyone thought Sirius was a murderer. So why take Harry away then? Marsha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bkdelong at pobox.com Thu Jun 28 20:37:43 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:37:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] About Precy in the trailer In-Reply-To: <35.1727e118.286ce87b@cs.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010628163651.051501f0@pop.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21608 At 04:07 PM 06/28/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone know where more wavs/mp3s of the trailer [preferably Percy] are? >All I have is Alan and I listened to that 50+ times already. I want more, >especially of Percy! Let me know please ;) Actually tomorrow, The Leaky Cauldron will be releasing clips of all the voices in the trailer. If you want a sneak preview, go here: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/sounds/ Enjoy ;) -- B.K. DeLong The Harry Potter Galleries http://www.hpgalleries.com/ Editor-in-Chief The Leaky Cauldron News section bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ +1.617.877.3271 From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 20:45:18 2001 From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:45:18 -0000 Subject: Why was Harry sent to live with the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <20010628203545.40774.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hg50v+h23b@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21609 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Marianna Lvovsky wrote: > > --- Meg Rose wrote: > > Well, they couldn't leave HArry with SB because he > > was locked up and > > sent to Azkaban... Most people thought he was still > > guilty and > > wouldn't want the (wizarding) world's most famous > > celebrity staying > > with a convicted felon... > > > > > But taking Harry to the Dursleys was BEFORE everyone > thought Sirius was a murderer. So why take Harry away > then? > > Marsha > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ The number one reason is probably that they knew there was a spy passing on information to Voldemort. At this time it was supposed to be Lupin (see CoS). Sirius was supposed to be the Potter's secret keeper, but he switched with Peter who no one ever assumed would turn spy. Since the main reason for the switch was to put the spy on the wrong trail, I'm sure that very few people were told. So, I assume that all those deciding where to place Harry thought that Sirius was the secret keeper and that he had been the one who betrayed the Potters (even before the confrontation with Peter). Thus, they did not feel safe about placing Harry with Sirius because they believed he was the spy. - Jamie From blpurdom at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 20:51:24 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:51:24 -0000 Subject: HP/Python casting In-Reply-To: <007c01c0fff2$fd55c8c0$c9c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <9hg5cc+ho65@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21610 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Eric Oppen" wrote: > Secondly, as far as the "visit from the MoM enforcers" scene goes--- I never > even knew there _was_ such a Python sketch. Python was thin on the ground > when I was growing up. > > Come to it, I wonder what the Pythons would be like if _they_ were wizards? Speaking of Pythons, I'm trying to remember: did I read on here at some point that John Cleese is going to be Nearly-Headless-Nick and that Eric Idle is going to be Peeves? Incidentally, I can't get it out of my head that Michael Palin should play Rita Skeeter in drag, using a very high-pitched Pepper Pot voice...(Python fans know what I mean). --Barb From bkdelong at pobox.com Thu Jun 28 20:55:13 2001 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:55:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP/Python casting In-Reply-To: <9hg5cc+ho65@eGroups.com> References: <007c01c0fff2$fd55c8c0$c9c71bce@hppav> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010628165429.04e19a60@pop.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21611 At 08:51 PM 06/28/2001 +0000, you wrote: >Speaking of Pythons, I'm trying to remember: did I read on here at >some point that John Cleese is going to be Nearly-Headless-Nick and >that Eric Idle is going to be Peeves? Incidentally, I can't get it >out of my head that Michael Palin should play Rita Skeeter in drag, >using a very high-pitched Pepper Pot voice...(Python fans know what I >mean). No, Peeves will definitely be played by Rik Mayall. -- B.K. DeLong The Harry Potter Galleries http://www.hpgalleries.com/ Editor-in-Chief The Leaky Cauldron News section bkdelong at the-leaky-cauldron.org http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ +1.617.877.3271 From matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com Thu Jun 28 20:59:59 2001 From: matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com (Matthew Dawdy) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:59:59 -0500 Subject: Help please! In-Reply-To: <01c101c0e63e$fd78ff20$a2d30941@mtgmry1.md.home.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21612 I have forgotten what username and password I was using for Yahoo groups -- I have tried many different ones. Is there a way that YOU can look them up? I am asking because I want to be able to search the archive messages for some questions before I ask them. Thanks! matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From FearNoG0d at aol.com Thu Jun 28 21:01:49 2001 From: FearNoG0d at aol.com (FearNoG0d at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 17:01:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why was Harry sent to live with the Dursleys? Message-ID: <129.aa4337.286cf53d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21613 Didn't everyone think that SB was the Potters' secret keeper? The fact that LV found them probably made everyone believe that SB had betrayed them, and that's why Harry wasn't taken to him. In a message dated 6/28/01 3:54:41 PM Central Daylight Time, mariannayus at yahoo.com writes: > But taking Harry to the Dursleys was BEFORE everyone > thought Sirius was a murderer. So why take Harry away > then? > > Marsha > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From BrownieH6 at aol.com Thu Jun 28 21:11:49 2001 From: BrownieH6 at aol.com (BrownieH6 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 17:11:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why was Harry sent to live with the Dursleys? Message-ID: <11c.f5cb1d.286cf795@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21614 Because DUmbledore Thought that Sirius had been the Secret-Keeper... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saitaina at wizzards.net Thu Jun 28 21:15:17 2001 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:15:17 -0700 Subject: Trailer: Harry's Hair, Ron's height, Herm's hair and the stairs (and some others) References: <9hg50v+h23b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <03b901c10017$71116de0$844e28d1@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 21615 Below are my observations, note that they differ from yours and these are just my opinions on my observations. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Okay, yes, there are many things diffrent from the books then the movies, that is why, one is a book, the other a movie :) First off, Harry's hair. Yes I agree they could have just died his hair black and been done with it, but I do think that the bigger problem is the weak attempt at tousled hair. This kid (Harry) couldn't get his hair to lie strait if he tried, so WHY is it evertime we see him, it is either strait, or only a few strands out of place. Does the make-up personal not have mouse? After all, I'm not talking gel where the spikes could stand strait up if we wished, or the shlack type of hairspray that could withstand a nucular attact, just plain old mousse. And it wouldn't be that hard to achive said effect, Apply mousse to head, gently rub in, then ruffle his hair like that annoying aunt you all know and love, add glasses and scar, Voila! Harry Potter. Now many have echoed sentamints of hating that fact that Actor! Ron (or Rupert) is shorter then Daniel. Yes he's shorter, but he's the better actor. Meaning he's better then the other Ron's not Daniel. I have seen good actors, and I have seen REALLY REALLY bad actors in my day, and guys, Rupert is GOOD. Feel glad they overlooked his height and went with him then someone whom fit all the requirments of playing Ron and got a really bad actor. Besides, by the time we get to the third movie he might grow to be more then Harry. I don't remember his height being an issue until GoF which does happen to be smack in the middle of most adolesent male growth spurts. Hermione's hair, is another real non issure. They could have died it, but besides the fact it would take forever to grow out again, I do think her hair is brown, granded redish brown but we can't have everything we want. I rather like Emma as Herm and will defend her appointment until I find out she really sucks, so far, that hadn't happened. She's good at playing Hermione and thats what we should be concerned with, not just her hair. Now if she were to go as orange blond as Felton, well then we can start complaining :). The stairs are motorized, that's why they look it. I rather like the look of them but I understand some of the problems. My main problem is why are the kids on it when it's moving, shouldnt' the stiars realize there are people on it? I know, it's a great effect in th movie, it shows the kids seeing how the school is alive as they are, blah, blah, but still, I keep picturing one of them falling off, mostly Neville since he's the clumbsyist. Hedwig delivering the broom-Who wouldnt' duck in that moment? This bird is flying at you with is what is obviously a broom, ye're gonna duck. I would duck, many people I know would duck. And although I'm more then sure I would have been slytherin the second I put the sorting hat on, I don't think that house had an issure of, Big bird, big broom, my head must move thinking in that moment. The hats-ARe the characters supposed to be wearing they're hats constantly? I've always deemed it a special occation part of the uniform and obmited it from my mental vision when reading unless it was spciffically mentioned. Of course, I obmit anything that makes a character look like a ninny mentioned or not. Now onto my favorite character-Draco. Now I've got a problem with hair. IT DOESN"T MOVE! I have not seen a lock of that kid's hair move in any scene. Now, granted it's all slicked back and nice looking, but what 11 year old uses enough hairspray and gel to make his hair resistant to a tornado? Please for the love of god make-up people, lay off the shlack! Okay, I think I've covered every relevent trailer topic I have an opinion on, and now I shall go and get caffinee and re-read what an idiot I made of myself. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 21:34:02 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:34:02 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?V=92s_Scheming_-_Boggarts_-_Divination_-_Ginny?= Message-ID: <9hg7sa+e883@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21616 Marianne wrote: >For that matter, why not assign a DE to go to Hogwarts and kill >Harry outright? I'm sure there are some Voldemort supporters who are >not suspected of being Dark Wizards who could manage to stroll into >the school grounds one fine day on some sort of fake mission and >find a way to attack Harry. >Maybe V should start thinking about changing his tactics, especially >since Harry always seems to come out ahead whenever he faces >Voldemort. Isn't it a sign of insanity if you do the same thing over >and over, and expect a different outcome? You'd think V would start >thinking about some other way to kill Harry. Send McNair back with >his ax...But, OTOH, I think V is vain enough that he will never ? >willingly let someone else bump Harry off. It's got to be him. He is too vain, and also, looking at it from V's point of view, sending a lieutenant to kill Harry for him would be a very bad strategy in the long run. That lieutenant, having defeated someone whom Voldemort could not, might begin to fancy himself the next Dark Lord, and loyalties of other DEs might shift as well. Once Harry had defeated V once (back in 1981), it became very important, not just for V's ego but for his hold on power, for V to defeat him himself. Scott wrote: >Why would the Dementor still be Harry's fear when he has the power >of the patronus over it? crstbo623 at yahoo.com wrote: >2) Harry's boggart is still a demeantor because it is not truly the >demeantor that he is fearful of but the painful memories of his >parents dying that the demeantor evokes who he comes in contact with >it. Harry doesn't want to be continually haunted by those memories, >and they are what he is fearful of. He may have the ability to >protect himself from it but he doesn't want to have to think about >it. That pretty much sums up my response, but I would just add this. Boggarts still turn into the moon for Lupin, even though his transformation is no longer physically painful and one could probably think of a long list of things that are scarier?isn't he more afraid of being killed, of the Cruciatus curse, etc., than of turning into a wolf? One could ask the same about Ron: which does he really find more terrifying on a rational level, Aragog or Voldemort? I'd bet it's the latter, yet boggarts turn into spiders when they see him. There is a quality to fear that has nothing to do with logic; our most visceral fears aren't necessarily in response to the things that are actually most dangerous, but to the ones that have some other kind of psychological hold on us because of past experience, or what they symbolize, or because they have an immediacy that realer threats don't have. I like that the boggart responds to this kind of illogical but very powerful fear. David wrote: >Ron apparently says things almost at random which later turn out to >be true (in which case Percy beware). Fred and George's bet >on Ireland seems similar, though I'd like to know the source of ? >their confidence in hazarding their entire savings. An ability to divine the future is only useful if you know you have it and know the difference between a guess and Seeing. If Ron, Fred, and/or George made true predictions because they're Seers, but didn't know they were true predictions at the time, then they aren't any better off than non-Seers. (If F & G really =knew= how the World Cup was going to come out [not the bet on Ireland, which was the favorite, but the double bet on Ireland to win and Krum to get the Snitch], and knew they knew it, they should forget about the Wheezes and just go to Vegas.) All of which is to say that a Seer has to know he/she's a Seer or he/she isn't much of a Seer. >(No, I don't understand the significance of Malfoy chasing him on a >dragon.) Aah, that one's easy. Draco=dragon, and he's one of the major obstacles to happiness in Harry's life. Plus, the opposing team being on dragons sounds like the wizarding version of your everyday, routine anxiety dream?take an anxiety (having to take an exam; being beaten by the upcoming opponent) and exaggerate it (having to take an exam in the nude; being roasted by the opponent's steed). I like your thought that we've been set up to discount Divination but that it will prove true at a key moment. Or that it already has. Penny wrote re: Ginny: >In PS/SS, we don't know her exact age IIRC. snipped> These actions don't seem like a 9/10 yr old girl to me. >This behavior seems to me to be of a much younger child (child >expert that I am -- ). I thought the same, and I wonder whether JKR knew Ginny was 10 at that point in her writing. Maybe Ginny wasn't originally meant to be in CoS but it changed in the writing; maybe she was meant to still be at home. So far, with the exception of CoS, she =could= be 5 years younger than Ron for all she's needed at Hogwarts in the rest of canon. It'll be interesting to see if she is key to later plots. Amy Z who loved Saitaina's trailer rant From mdartagnan at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 21:54:24 2001 From: mdartagnan at yahoo.com (mdartagnan at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:54:24 -0000 Subject: Trailer question -- Mac users? In-Reply-To: <9hfn17+dg5n@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hg92g+ekee@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21617 > Can somebody help Mac/Internet Explorer/Quicktime users to > download the trailer? Hi! Well, I use Netscape Navigator, but I don't think the procedure is very different with Internet Explorer. If you download the trailer on a new window, as soon as it has been downloaded on its completition, choose "Save as". On the following window, you'll see that you can save it as "web document", "plain text" or "html source", but also you'll find a button named "Options". If you push it (or at least that happens on IE5), it will give you the option to save it as a movie. If you use Netscape (IMO, much easier), just choose "Save as"; on the following window, choose "Source" (as opposed to "Text"). Anyway, on Comingsoon.net, as soon as you click on the link, you get the choice to save it on your hard disk, or at least that's what happened with my iMac. Sorry about the semi-offtopic, but I prefered to send this message to the main list just in case there were other Mac users in need of help. Take care, Altair Who's beginning to drool for Christian Bale... From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 22:18:44 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trailer 2 - where is it? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010628163651.051501f0@pop.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20010628221844.23253.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21618 Was there not a post this afternoon that had the three QuickTime trailers available for downloading? I thought it was at the Leaking Cauldron but all it has is the link to the WB-HP site and I can't download from there. Second question: is anyone else getting multiple postings of some people's messages? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 22:19:24 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of JKR's view of Hufflepuff and (to a lesser degree) Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <20010628192852.50465.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010628221924.12878.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21619 Actually you make some good points that I have to agree with. I'd completely forgotten about Finch-Fletchley apologizing to Harry at the end of CoS (Now I have to go dig my book out and read it again). You're right also in saying that the books are from Harry's POV so he would be more concerned with the Houses that affect him the most. I don't think we have even heard of any of them taking any classes with the Ravenclaws and only Herbology with Hufflepuff so there doesn't seem to be much interaction with them anyway. OTOH they do have both Potions and Care of Magical Creatures and in first year Flying Lessons with the Sytherins so we hear more about them. Just MHO. Danette That brings up a good point. No offense to Hufflepuffs or Ravenclaws but without the trio and Draco Malfoy they aren't really that important. They aren't really interesting and the story isn't in there point of view. And as far as I'm concerned (yell at me if you'd like) I think that Cedric probably did win the Triwizard Cup...I Mean no he didn't...but on the same token he deserved it as much as Harry. Had he lived he would have been a very important character. I am looking for more Ravenclaws to be developed..in reality we have seen 2 members of that house that I can think of..Cho Chang and Penolpe Clearwater. Both of them have been developed as romance prospects for Gryffindors....hmm...I wonder....LOL Melanie --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET Thu Jun 28 22:24:17 2001 From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 18:24:17 -0400 Subject: trailer Message-ID: <000c01c10021$135d7fe0$07841440@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 21620 Oh am I excited now! My kids and I just watched the entire trailer on the Baltimore news! It's so much better on a 31 inch screen when you can see it clearly. November 16th can't come soon enough. My 10 year old ( who is on her 8th time listening to the books on tape!) wants to know when we can buy our tickets! Not soon enough! Diana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 22:42:02 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why was Harry sent to live with the Dursleys? In-Reply-To: <9hg2e2+qkgi@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010628224202.15402.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21621 Dumbledore was insistent that he NOT live in the wizard world. To quote SS/Ps "It would be enough to turn any boy's head. Famous before he could walk and talk! Famous for something he won't even remember! Can't you see how much better off he'll be, growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it?" Now obviously I believe there is more to the Dumbledore's decision than that. I do believe however that growing up in a wizard world would be very confusing for poor Harry. He'd eventually get sick of it. And if everyone knows where to find him, it puts him at risk(considering there are still those people who want to harm him). He didn't alert the MOM due to the fact that it was secret, his where-A-bouts are unknown to most of the wizard world perhaps because Dumbledore believed at that point that there were still several people who were not to be trusted. He also probably put a protective curse over 4 Pivet Dr. so that Harry would not be harmed. It's also a possibility that he can't be harmed when in the care of relatives, aka Petunia. Everything lies with her, she is the answer to all our unanswered questions about this. Also, I am not really sure if in fact Harry would have been able to live with Sirius after POA....I Mean it seemed like wishful thinking on their parts. Of course, that remains speculation because obviously Sirius was never cleared. Melanie --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aiz24 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 22:57:14 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 22:57:14 -0000 Subject: Why couldn't Harry live with Sirius? (was Dursleys) In-Reply-To: <20010628224202.15402.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hgcoa+dqbb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21622 Melanie wrote: > Also, I am not really sure if in fact Harry would have been able to >live with Sirius after POA....I Mean it seemed like wishful thinking >on their parts. Of course, that remains speculation because >obviously Sirius was never cleared. Now that's interesting. Why do you think it seems like wishful thinking? Is there a reason besides Sirius's not being cleared and Dumbledore, as we later learn, possibly objecting for reasons of Harry's safety? The dream of the cool godfather actually being able to adopt one away from one's nasty foster family would be unrealistic for most kids, but the Dursleys really would be happy to get rid of Harry. I don't think he would have met with any resistance from that quarter. Likewise, most kids may dream of leaving home, but very few would actually say yes to someone they'd just met, knowing next to nothing about him. But that, too, fits with Harry's extreme misery at Privet Drive. A pleasant-seeming alternative walks into his life and he says "YES!" without really knowing anything about the man. Also, what Harry does know about Sirius is that he was his parents', in particular his dad's, best friend, and Harry longs for a connection to his parents and in particular his father. And finally, the other thing he knows about him, the importance of which can't be discounted, is that he's a wizard. Hermione might not greatly care that she spends 2 months a year in the Muggle world, but for Harry it's all but intolerable because the Dursleys don't acknowledge that part of his life--i.e., who and what he is--at all. (Next to people insulting his parents, one of the things that riles him up most is Vernon's ignorance of Quidditch in GF. I think that's significant.) Amy Z From rosewoof at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 23:36:57 2001 From: rosewoof at earthlink.net (Rose Woofenden) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:36:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer: Harry's Hair, Ron's height, Herm's hair and the stairs (and some others) In-Reply-To: <03b901c10017$71116de0$844e28d1@oemcomputer> References: <9hg50v+h23b@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010628163510.009f5a70@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21623 > >Hedwig delivering the broom-Who wouldnt' duck in that moment? This bird is >flying at you with is what is obviously a broom, ye're gonna duck. I would >duck, many people I know would duck. And although I'm more then sure I >would have been slytherin the second I put the sorting hat on, I don't think >that house had an issure of, Big bird, big broom, my head must move thinking >in that moment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the broom wrapped up in some manner? Doesn't McG. put a note on that says something along the lines of "don't open this at the table. It's your new broom."? -Rose [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Jun 28 23:35:14 2001 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:35:14 -0000 Subject: Jumbled thoughts on how Harry could have killed Sirius In-Reply-To: <20010627150911.75166.qmail@web14404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hgevi+l47n@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21624 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Marianna Lvovsky wrote: > > On the point of Harry's losing his temper when > > someone verbally > > trashes his parents. I have wondered if, in the > > future, we will see > > Harry have the same reaction people making > > disparaging comments about > > Sirius. Harry has not had many adults in his life he > > can trust and > > respect and love. If the relationship that's > > growing between Harry > > and Sirius continues (no death in book 5, please), > > and if Sirius is > > unable to clear his name, Harry can easily be in > > situations where he > > will hear people revile Sirius. I think it will be > > harder and harder > > for Harry to remain quiet. > > > > Marianne > > > > > > However, I think he will remain quiet: otherwise he > will be betraying Sirius. And not only is it easier to > control oneself when one gets older, Harry > demonstrated he can control himself when necessary (if > nothing else, living with the Dursleys would have > taught him that). Harry is reckless to *personal* > consequences when someone bashes his parents (e.g. > going for Sirius even though he is much smaller than > SB and Sirius is supposed to be an unhinged murderer, > or going for Aunt Marge even though that would get > Dursleys after him as never before). I don't recall > him endangering anyone else with these outbursts. Lily > and James are dead, they won't be endangered, but > Sirius is alive, and very much will be. > > Marsha Actually, I was thinking mostly of Snape when I mused about Harry verbally jumping to Sirius' defense. We all know that Snape and Sirius can't stand each other. At the end of GoF, Snape sees the interaction between Sirius and Harry right before Sirius leaves. So he knows that the two are more than just casual acquaintances. Even though it seems that JKR hints at the end of that book that Harry and Snape are heading towards a better understanding of each other, I wouldn't be surprised to see Snape deliberately provoking Harry about Sirius. If you can say nasty things to a 13-year-old kid about his murdered father, you're not above saying nasty things to a 15- year-old kid about his godfather, especially when you can't stand said godfather. I think that if this were to happen, especially in private, Harry would by no means hold his tongue. Marianne From rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com Thu Jun 28 23:45:56 2001 From: rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com (rodeodangerqueen at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:45:56 -0000 Subject: Unless... Message-ID: <9hgfjk+p931@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21625 Unless they deviate from the main ideas in the books to a significant...and I REPEAT....SIGNIFICANT....extent...I'm just going to go and enjoy the movie unless the movie ITSELF is not good. Just my two cents. N :0 From vderark at bccs.org Thu Jun 28 23:50:37 2001 From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:50:37 -0000 Subject: assorted notes on the trailer frame-by-frame Message-ID: <9hgfsd+oriv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21626 Here's a collection of notes I took as I stepped through the trailer frame by frame: Diagon Alley - note the variety of hats and robes and the way the buildings lean in at various angles - and is that Hedwig flying overhead? Seems unlikely, since Harry leaves Diagon Alley with her in a cage, but there aren't many Snowy owls around. Note the hanging balls on the sign on the right - I can't rembember my symbols, but isn't that the sign of an apothecary? Or is it a pawnshop? Eeylops - Is Hedwig the one we zero in on or the one we pass in the cage on the left? ext. Ollivanders - note that there are long thin boxes stacked up even in the upstairs windows how many students in the Great Hall scene? Approximately 250 sitting and another 30 coming in as first years. No matter what JK says, about 300 students just works right from any standpoint. Can you imagine what the Great hall would look like with four times as many kids sitting and four times as many kids walking in? The number of boats approaching two scenes previous also lends credence to this. Great Hall, delivery of broomstick - It is apparent that Gryffindor is the second table from the right. But in the books it's clearly on the far side. Of course, in the books the main entrance is on the side of the room, not opposite the teacher's table, so they really have it all wrong. Flying Lesson - 26 students. Madam Hooch wears falconers gauntlets. Her eyes are yellow in the book, but apparently they aren't in the film. Her whistle is shaped like a feather. Order of students: middle of the row is Dean Thomas, Neville, Ron, Harry, Hermione. Opposite them are Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle. Three walking together - Ron is taller than Harry, but not by much. I love the look of this scene, especially Ron's tie undone and shirt tail hanging out. Snape scene - this is supposed to be in a dungeon, but there are big windows with light coming in. That's too bad... Dumbledore speaking at Start of Term Feast - We're not seeing lots of room for extra teachers here. We see Flitwick, McGonagall, Dumbledore, and another female teacher (Sprout? Vector?). If you compare this to the wide angle shots of the Great Hall, it is clear that there isn't space for the forty or fifty teachers which would be required for a student body of a thousand. I know the movie isn't canon, but I think it can be counted on to interpret visually what JKR wants, since she's given so much input. And I think she visualized it like this (as did I) and never really thought about how many students that would actually work out to be. Excellent motion of Quirrell/Voldemort on the ground - just sort of gliding without visible legs touching the ground, like a snake. Scary. In the close up of Harry a moment later, there is something moving behind him. Fang running away? Golden Snitch - that is simply fabulous. What an incredible effect. Watch Harry's eyes - he follows the Snitch perfectly, even though it was almost certainly added later in post production. Petrificus Totalus - will they add some post production rotoscoping to that, I hope? I want to see a little sparkle there. Poor Neville. I hope that kid didn't really have to fall over like that. That had to hurt. Tell me they used a dummy... Percy leading first years down the corridor - if this is after the opening feast, why is there light coming in the windows? So if not, when is this scene? And then, is it Percy? Hogwarts Library - where's the Invisibility Cloak? Or will that be added in post production? I love the way Richard Harris delivers the line "most painful death." Very dry. And Harry and Ron's reactions are great. Quirrell running into the Great Hall - there is lightning, which I assume is because of the Enchanted Ceiling? That troll is absolutely fantastic. Love the eyes. More lightning, you'll notice. Great Hall - they sit on benches. Never thought about this before. I'll have to draw it that way on my map, since it makes perfect sense. giant chess game - Harry's sweater has been damaged - burned? Is that from the Devil Snare? This scene looks far better than I could have hoped. Explosion on the stone horse - whoever is on that horse is wearing a long-sleeved shirt, unbuttoned, over a t-shirt, which I think (if I can make it out on the long shot) is what Ron is wearing. So yes, that would be his sacrificial move in the chess game. Another nice effect is when Harry blows past Malfoy in midair at the end. Malfoy bounces around a little because of it. Very well done. From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com Fri Jun 29 00:02:20 2001 From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:02:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] more trailer blather Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21627 Also in that scene, the kid sitting to the right of Ron ducks as Hedwig dives in. Not very brave for a Gryffindor.>> He might've ducked just because he didn't want to get whomped in the head by the broom and/or Hedwig. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From JenniferABacker at cs.com Fri Jun 29 00:08:46 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:08:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer: Harry's Hair, Ron's height, Herm's hair and the ... Message-ID: <73.f506419.286d210e@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21628 In a message dated 6/28/01 5:39:34 PM Central Daylight Time, saitaina at wizzards.net writes: << Now onto my favorite character-Draco. Now I've got a problem with hair. IT DOESN"T MOVE! I have not seen a lock of that kid's hair move in any scene. Now, granted it's all slicked back and nice looking, but what 11 year old uses enough hairspray and gel to make his hair resistant to a tornado? Please for the love of god make-up people, lay off the shlack! >> Sorry but I just have to say, my brother! I don't know about where you live but in my town it's the 'new thing'. Very few boys don't slick their hair back. I don't see why they do it, but they do! Therefore I know several stupid little 11 who do it. They don't look like Draco though. His hair's not bad. I wish he didn't have like that though... I may love werewolves <3 <3 but a big black dog will <3 <3 always have my heart <3 <3 Please join my weekly *NSYNC zine: Now & Forever Get cash the fun and easy way: RefRewards If you join these zines please put JenniferABacker referred ya! It'd mean a LOT:) Get daily banners with matching custom colors: Background Daily Ran/Rave zine ran by a guy: abominate Packed *NSYNC zine: *NSYNC Academy Learn about a great new singer: Official Gina Marie Zine Daily *NSYNC news & pics; short loading: 'nsync fantasy mad cow season - freebies behind the music - graphics From mariannayus at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 00:18:09 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 17:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Harry couldn't live with Sirius (and a few other questions) In-Reply-To: <9hgcoa+dqbb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010629001809.94639.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21629 I went back and checked in PoA (ah, the sacrifices we make). on p. 206-7 (American edition), there is Hagrid's little speech that explains most of it. I guess I should have checked before posting. But I don't have the book at work. Earlier Hagrid states that Dumbledore knew that Sirius was James' secret keeper and wanted to be keeper himself (worrying about a spy in James' circle). So at least Dumbledore knew about Sirius connection (I don't think that many other people knew about the secret keeper business, at least not until PP "died", because the less people know the better). And then, after the LV visit, to quote Hagrid: "An' then he says, 'Give Harry ter me, Hagrid, I'm his godfather, I'll look after him-' Ha! But I'd had me orders from DUMBLEDORE, an' I told Black no, Dumbledore said Harry was ter go ter his aunt an' uncle's. Black argued, but in the end he gave in." It makes sense that Dumbledore put 2 and 2 together (or so he thought: Sirius=secret keeper, Potters=dead, therefore Sirius=traitor), and that's why he didn't want Harry with him. Couple of related questions though. 1. Fidelius charm: the secret keeper can only reveal the secret voluntarily, I presume? Otherwise a simple veritas curse would work. 2. How does that secret keeping business work? Fidelius charm works to keep everyone away except the secret keeper? So how come Sirius, Hagrid and half the wizard population were able to get to Godric's Hollow after the Potters bought it? Is the fidelius charm automatically broken the minute the keeper tells somebody? Or did James trust Sirius enough to tell him even without the charm (I presume so, since he flew to where the Potters were, and had no doubt he would find them, even though at that point he did not know PP was a traitor). Or did V put a counter-spell? Or is it just V who couldn't find them? 3. James Potter must have been truly reckless. If he thought there was a suspicion of one of his 3 friends being a traitor, he should have picked Dumbledore for the secret keeper. Or at least stuck with Sirius, since he's Potter's best friend, and James seems to be 100% sure of him, that leaves either Lupin or Pettigrew as the traitor, and a 50/50 chance is too much to take in this instance. There is no doubt that if Dumbledore suspects a traitor, there must be one. 3. Sirius. One minute he wants the child and is apparently in a long argument with Hagrid, the next he gives away his motorbike and sys he won't need it again. Is it shock? it's hard imagine him carrying Harry to the Pettigrew confrontation. What would he do with him? 4. OK, not Sirius, but does it have to be the Dursleys? Marsha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 00:18:30 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 17:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why couldn't Harry live with Sirius? (was Dursleys) In-Reply-To: <9hgcoa+dqbb@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010629001830.74066.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21630 Now that's interesting. Why do you think it seems like wishful thinking? Is there a reason besides Sirius's not being cleared and Dumbledore, as we later learn, possibly objecting for reasons of Harry's safety? Well, it goes back to the whole thing that 4 Pivet Dr has something that protects Harry..whether a Protective charm or maybe the fact that Harry can't be harmed while under the protection of a family member. This is the theory that makes the most sense...IMHO..it's not original (I won't take credit for it..but it just seems to make sense). Melanie --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 00:38:45 2001 From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:38:45 -0000 Subject: Harry's wand-- my two cents- And Hair issues, of course In-Reply-To: <73.f506419.286d210e@cs.com> Message-ID: <9hgiml+hph8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21631 LOL What a great trailer and what an even greater discussion! There is so much I love about this, it is hard to know where to start.... But I will say this: GROAN!! Don't those prop people understand that HOLLY (the material of which Harry's wand is made)is a pale ivory white??? In its natural shade, it is one of the palest and lightest woods you can find. Which is why it goes so splendidly with ebony for holly and ebony onlays. The wand I see in this trailer is a dark walnut color. Argh. Sorry, nobody picks over details as much as I do. I too am irritated by the neatness of Harry's hair-- a little mousse would go fabulously, I think! Come on guys!! And I guess it is just Draco's character, but everytime I see him on screen I want soooo much to mess up his careful coiffure! Cheers... It is good to see you all again!!! Love, Suzanne From princess_danika at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 01:10:20 2001 From: princess_danika at hotmail.com (Danika Saal) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:10:20 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter/Scabbers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21632 >From: Joy the Lemur >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peter/Scabbers >Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 01:47:34 -0700 (PDT) > >(and no, that's not intended to be a 'ship!) > >Greetings! Posting-Newbie alert! I've searched the >archives on several keywords but I'm afraid my >keywords on this topic are a bit too general. So I've >probably missed the prior discussions. > >However, I really need to get this thought out into >the forum or else I'll never fall asleep tonight. >I'll just toss and turn wondering... > >Peter Pettigrew is said to be, I believe, a fellow who >basically cannot risk his life for the Greater Good. >He would rather join the powerful evil forces than be >killed by them. > >Likewise, those people who would break the strike and >go to work for the "evil" management rather than risk >their own livelihood for the Greater Good...are also >known as "scabs." > >scabs...scabbers... > >Am I reaching here? > >Actually, now that I'm typing this out, it seems a bit >too obvious that I don't trust it to be legitimate >speculation. I'm sure y'all have discussed it to >death...I apologize now and hope someone can direct me >to the relevant thread. :D > >-joy the lemur > > Joy, I agree with that! I read a book in primary school that talked about scabs, so that makes sense to me. It is a very appropriate name for Peter anyway. Either relating to him being a filthy vermin, or as you say a scab. But maybe thats because I am an Aussie........ (our history is swarming with strikes and scabs) Danika Longbottom _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 01:27:54 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 01:27:54 -0000 Subject: Why Harry couldn't live with Sirius (and a few other questions) In-Reply-To: <20010629001809.94639.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hgliq+r98t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21633 Actually, I was asking that question about Harry at age 13, not at 15 months. I think you sum up the reasons why Dumbledore didn't give him to his godfather in the first place quite well. Marianna wrote: > 3. Sirius. One minute he wants the child and is > apparently in a long argument with Hagrid, the next he > gives away his motorbike and sys he won't need it > again. Is it shock? it's hard imagine him carrying > Harry to the Pettigrew confrontation. What would he do > with him? Now that you've posed this question, the whole situation seems even more tragic to me. I think everything might have gone very differently if Hagrid had given Harry to Sirius (or if Sirius had gotten to the house before Hagrid and taken him). Scenario #1: Sirius gets to the house and discovers the worst has happened--but at least Harry, for some unfathomable reason, is alive. Here is something, at least, that he can do for James and Lily. In all seriousness, though no doubt in a state of shock, he asks Hagrid for Harry--"I'm his godfather." Hagrid says sorry, no, I have my orders, and Sirius gives way to his other main impulse of the moment, which is revenge. He tells Hagrid to keep the bike and he goes off looking for Peter. In this scenario, he doesn't necessarily think he's losing custody of Harry permanently--he isn't thinking at all. He's just seizing hold of the only action he can take at the moment. He might not realize until Peter catches up with him that he has been well and truly set up. Scenario #2: Alternatively, and possibly even more bitterly, Sirius isn't even going to try to kill Peter until he meets up with Hagrid and, hearing that he has orders from Dumbledore, realizes in that moment that everyone will think he's the traitor and that his chances of adopting Harry are nil unless he can capture Peter. In either case, if he =had= gotten Harry, you're right, he couldn't have carried him to the confrontation with Peter--and that's the most tragic aspect, because if he'd had Harry, he probably would have seen no alternative but to go to Dumbledore and explain what happened. Who knows what would have happened then, but at least it wouldn't be Sirius trying to duel Peter and losing spectacularly; Dumbledore might have been able to track Peter down and discover the truth. But it didn't happen that way, because Dumbledore, foreseeing that if Sirius got to Harry first he'd kill him (so he thinks), acted too fast. He thought that he'd gotten Hagrid to the house just in the nick of time, but in fact if Sirius had gotten there first, the whole second half of the tragedy might never have happened. Amy Z new obsession rating: 65% -------------------------------------------------- The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that stood alone in the middle of the grounds. -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban -------------------------------------------------- From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Jun 29 01:29:44 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 01:29:44 -0000 Subject: Unless... In-Reply-To: <9hgfjk+p931@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hglm8+e9k8@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21634 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rodeodangerqueen at y... wrote: > Unless they deviate from the main ideas in the books to a > significant...and I REPEAT....SIGNIFICANT....extent...I'm just going > to go and enjoy the movie unless the movie ITSELF is not good. Just > my two cents. I just *love* the idea of closing down Hogwarts the educational facility and reopening it as a Muggles Theme Park ("Not Just for the Literate Anymore!"). I just get goose pimples imagining Harry Potter as the Warner Brothers house-elf. It will be so thrilling to use the TM symbol every time we type Quidditch, Platform Nine 3/4, or Sorting Hat. Hopefully, the movie version will correct the sentimental JKR and put Harry in Slytherin House, where WB so clearly feels their elf belongs. HP the Motion Picture will stand in relation to the Canon where Space Jam the Motion Picture stands in relation to the Termite Terrace (if you have the wit to concieve me). ...doesn't the fact that Book Five is being significantly delayed because of this dreadful cinematographication of HP scare the holy You-Know-What of anyone besides me? The late novelist Jerzy Kosinski said that when he was involved in the filming of his novel Being There, he felt his creative novelistic powers being literaly drained from his psyche (like cheerful thoughts in the presence of a Dementor). And Kosinski went through a hell of a lot rougher experiences than (thank goodness!) JKR or you or I will ever be compelled to meet. - CMC (who likes movies, but likes books better) From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri Jun 29 01:32:21 2001 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 18:32:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why couldn't Harry live with Sirius? (was Dursleys) In-Reply-To: <9hgcoa+dqbb@eGroups.com> References: <20010628224202.15402.qmail@web10904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010628183027.03721d70@pop.mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21635 At 10:57 PM 6/28/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote: >(Next to people insulting his parents, one of the things that riles him up >most is >Vernon's ignorance of Quidditch in GF. I think that's significant.) Not just that, but Uncle Vernon says, "What's this rubbish?" A Anything that Harry knows about and loves that he doesn't must be "rubbish". What a way to treat a kid! -- Dave From kabuki_darling at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 01:31:46 2001 From: kabuki_darling at hotmail.com (Sylph ~*~) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:31:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why was Harry sent to live with the Dursleys? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21636 Marsha wrote: >Hagrid brings baby Harry and deposits him on the >Durleys' doorstep. The question is, why wasn't Harry >left with Sirius? After all, he was the one who was >HP's godfather, and I think, guardian. > Well, James, Lily, and Sirius didn't tell anyone about switching the secret keeper, did they? So Dumbledore still thought that Sirius was the Secret Keeper and therefore betrayed the Potters. Also, wasn't there something in the books about Harry having a bit of natural protection by living with blood relatives? I also believe Dumbledore wanted Harry in a low profile place, disconnected from the wizarding world and therefore dark wizards who may have wanted revenge. Sylph _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 01:35:19 2001 From: ilovbrian_99 at yahoo.com (Melanie Brackney) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 18:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hermione/Draco question In-Reply-To: <20010629001830.74066.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010629013519.82246.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21637 Hello, I was reading GOF yesterday, I was at the part when the Death Eaters were wearing hoods and destroying Muggles for entertainment. Malfoy makes a statement that is similar to "You better go hide, you wouldn't want her to get into trouble" referring to Hermione. Now as bratty as this sounds...if he really wanted to see Hermione hurt (as one would suspect, considering he's never really showed any respect towards her before) why would he even suggest that she could possibly in danger by staying out in the open. It seems to me that in an odd, maybe even snape like way, he was trying to help Hermione. Does anyone else see this? Or am i out of my mind? Melanie --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From reanna20 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 01:52:45 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 18:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] assorted notes on the trailer frame-by-frame In-Reply-To: <9hgfsd+oriv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010629015245.22614.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21638 Ooo, nice notes Steve. I'll add my own agree's, disagree's, addendums... > Diagon Alley - note the variety of hats and robes and the way the > buildings lean in at various angles - and is that Hedwig flying > overhead? I absolutely love the way Diagon Alley looks. I can't wait to see the movie to scruntinize those scenes. It matches almost exactly with what I pictured. > Eeylops - Is Hedwig the one we zero in on or the one we pass in the > cage on the left? Of course we can't know for sure, but I would bank on yes. > ext. Ollivanders - note that there are long thin boxes stacked up > even in the upstairs windows Wow, I missed that. Good eyes! > Great Hall, delivery of broomstick - It is apparent that Gryffindor > is the second table from the right. But in the books it's clearly on > the far side. Of course, in the books the main entrance is on the > side of the room, not opposite the teacher's table, so they really > have it all wrong. Agreed. I've always thought for some reason that Gryffindor table was the one nearest to the entrance on the side. > Three walking together - Ron is taller than Harry, but not by much. I > love the look of this scene, especially Ron's tie undone and shirt > tail hanging out. I love it too. It just seems so Ron! I'm liking Rupert Grint more and more as I watch the second trailer... Oh, for some reason Hooch's eyes look yellow to me. Not bright yellow, but definitely a very light color. Of course, it could just be my eyes acting up on me... > Snape scene - this is supposed to be in a dungeon, but there are big > windows with light coming in. That's too bad... Ooo, you're right! I guess I didn't notice because I was too busy swooning over Alan Rickman. > Excellent motion of Quirrell/Voldemort on the ground - just sort of > gliding without visible legs touching the ground, like a snake. > Scary. Not sure quite what I think of this. Something about this scene seems wrong to me but I don't know what yet... > Percy leading first years down the corridor - if this is after the > opening feast, why is there light coming in the windows? So if not, > when is this scene? And then, is it Percy? Perhaps this is after Quirrel comes running in gasping about the Troll? I think this scene is supposed to happen during dinner and it could conceivably be light out still. I happen to think it's Percy in that scene leading the Gryffindors back to the tower. But only time will tell... > Quirrell running into the Great Hall - there is lightning, which I > assume is because of the Enchanted Ceiling? Hrm, don't know. There's nothing that say lightning in the book. Dumbledore's wand is supposed to give off purple firecrackers to get everyone's attention, but I imagine it wouldn't happen that quickly. Stranger and stranger... > Great Hall - they sit on benches. Never thought about this before. > I'll have to draw it that way on my map, since it makes perfect > sense. Didn't they always sit on benches? I've always imagined them that way...isn't there a reference in one of the books? Oh, and I like how in the snitch scene Wood obviously doesn't know where the snitch is while Harry has his eyes right one it. > giant chess game - Harry's sweater has been damaged - burned? Is that > from the Devil Snare? This scene looks far better than I could have > hoped. Ditto. I love the set-up, the general feeling of it. I'm a little confused about the falling sword bit; I assume it's part of the game and the knight has been just been taken? Can anyone clarify? > Another nice effect is when Harry blows past Malfoy in midair at the > end. Malfoy bounces around a little because of it. Very well done. It's so fast! I mean, I know that the wizards/witches moved fast on the brooms but I guess I just slowed them down in my mind's eye. It's just a little startling to see them zoom like that! Something more to add, I like the bit with Hagrid flying on the motorcycle. Very cool. And the small bit were Snape and Quirrel are talking looks marvelous as well. I'm gaining respect for whoever is doing Quirrel... I agree with what's been said about Malfoy's hair. I just want to mess it up so badly! It looks almost painted on! For some reason, Hagrid's voice bothered me in the beginning. And then I realized the reason...he says "You" instead of "Yeh"! Interesting how small things can jar me right out of what's happening... That's all for now! ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/21/2001 "It never happened if there is no memory of it. Human memory is just a record. You can rewrite the record." - Serial Experiments Lain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Jun 29 01:53:27 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 01:53:27 -0000 Subject: Hermione/Draco question In-Reply-To: <20010629013519.82246.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hgn2n+rs9k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21639 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > Hello, > > I was reading GOF yesterday, I was at the part when the Death Eaters were wearing hoods and destroying Muggles for entertainment. Malfoy makes a statement that is similar to "You better go hide, you wouldn't want her to get into trouble" referring to Hermione. Now as bratty as this sounds...if he really wanted to see Hermione hurt (as one would suspect, considering he's never really showed any respect towards her before) why would he even suggest that she could possibly in danger by staying out in the open. It seems to me that in an odd, maybe even snape like way, he was trying to help Hermione. Does anyone else see this? Or am i out of my mind? IMO, Draco just wants to make sure that Harry, Ron and Hermione know that he's "inside the loop," privy to all kinds of top secret information that the impoverished and Mudbloods lack access to. It's kind of the same thing on PoA, where Draco feigns astonishment that Harry doesn't know that Sirius Black was alleged to have betrayed James and Lily. In that instance, Draco was hardly trying to help Harry - he just wanted to make sure that Harry knew how much better informed he was. And also, the campground DEs were a pretty cowardly lot, picking only on helpless Muggles, and dispersing as soon as the Dark Mark was projected. Without Voldy, IMO they would have been too craven to have attacked anyone with magical prowess who could have struck back (meaning Hermione was safe) - CMC From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 02:01:04 2001 From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 02:01:04 -0000 Subject: Why couldn't Harry live with Sirius? (was Dursleys) In-Reply-To: <20010629001830.74066.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hgnh0+ms7t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21640 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > Now that's interesting. Why do you think it seems like wishful > thinking? Is there a reason besides Sirius's not being cleared and > Dumbledore, as we later learn, possibly objecting for reasons of > Harry's safety? > > Well, it goes back to the whole thing that 4 Pivet Dr has something that protects Harry..whether a Protective charm or maybe the fact that Harry can't be harmed while under the protection of a family member. This is the theory that makes the most sense...IMHO..it's not original (I won't take credit for it..but it just seems to make sense). > > Melanie ______________ But it's not a theory - it's fact. (Well, in a HP canon sense that is) Voldemort himself says "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relation's care. Not even I can touch him there...." (GoF ch.33) But now *all* i want to know about how this ancient magic works.....anyone have any ideas? - Jamie From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 02:27:36 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] assorted notes on the trailer frame-by-frame In-Reply-To: <20010629015245.22614.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010629022736.25440.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21641 --- Amber wrote: > > giant chess game - Harry's sweater has been > damaged - burned? Is that > > from the Devil Snare? This scene looks far better > than I could have > > hoped. > > Ditto. I love the set-up, the general feeling of it. > I'm a little > confused about the falling sword bit; I assume it's > part of the game > and the knight has been just been taken? Can anyone > clarify? > > ~Amber > > I hate to say this but after watching the real play version of the trailer about 15 times (my 5-year kept saying "again, play it again") I have to say(although I'm sure someone will disagree with me) that is actually the end of the game there, only in the book (sorry can't pull the exact reference my books are still packed somewhere - I HATE moving) it says the king threw his "crown" at Harry's feet NOT a sword. Hollywood! Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From editor at texas.net Fri Jun 29 02:32:46 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:32:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] About Precy in the trailer References: <35.1727e118.286ce87b@cs.com> Message-ID: <3B3BE8CE.46D0FECC@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21642 JenniferABacker at cs.com wrote: > Does anyone know where more wavs/mp3s of the trailer [preferably > Percy] are? All I have is Alan and I listened to that 50+ times > already. I want more, especially of Percy! Let me know please ;) Hmph. "All I have is Alan." ALL she has is Alan. Poor, poor, poor baby. --Amanda "all I have is caviar and champagne" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From potterlovingash at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 02:40:43 2001 From: potterlovingash at hotmail.com (Ashley Kelly) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 02:40:43 -0000 Subject: assorted notes on the trailer frame-by-frame In-Reply-To: <9hgfsd+oriv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hgprb+dgo0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21643 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" wrote: > Eeylops - Is Hedwig the one we zero in on or the one we pass in the > cage on the left? > Hedwig is the one we pass on the left... months ago the picture with Harry and Hedwig (in real like Ook) outside matches the first owl on the left. Beautiful creatures, aren't they... Whoa, out of lurkdom twice in one week, Ashley K. From bohners at pobox.com Fri Jun 29 02:44:16 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 22:44:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] About Percy in the trailer References: <35.1727e118.286ce87b@cs.com> <3B3BE8CE.46D0FECC@texas.net> Message-ID: <09ed01c10045$66801ce0$0938acce@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 21644 > > Does anyone know where more wavs/mp3s of the trailer [preferably > > Percy] are? All I have is Alan and I listened to that 50+ times > > already. I want more, especially of Percy! Let me know please ;) > Hmph. "All I have is Alan." ALL she has is Alan. Poor, poor, poor baby. > > --Amanda "all I have is caviar and champagne" ROTFL! Amanda, you made my day. -- Rebecca J. Bohner (who keeps meaning to check the Alan Rickman Fan Page's guestbook to see exactly how much hysteria the latest trailer is generating) rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Fri Jun 29 02:47:29 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 02:47:29 -0000 Subject: Ancient/Old Magic In-Reply-To: <9hgnh0+ms7t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hgq81+457t@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21645 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jamie" wrote: > > But now *all* i want to know about how this ancient magic > works.....anyone have any ideas? > Earlier in the same chapter, we learn that Lily saved Harry from Voldy's AK curse by invoking "old" magic. "I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it." - of course, Tom Riddle forgot in CoS that Phoenix tears have a healing property - maybe Voldy has a memory as crummy as Neville Longbottom. Old/Ancient magic seems to be incredibly powerful - not even Voldy can countermand it. This would not seem to be the magic which is taught at Hogwarts, but a more esoteric magic perhaps open only to the more spirtually ambitious (which may mean either striving toward a greater purity or a greater corruption). - CMC Making megical history all over the show! - Finnegans Wake, p. 514 From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 02:52:15 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 02:52:15 -0000 Subject: Unless... In-Reply-To: <9hglm8+e9k8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hgqgv+20a9@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21646 Caius Marcius pleaded: > ...doesn't the fact that Book Five is being significantly delayed > because of this dreadful cinematographication of HP scare the holy > You-Know-What of anyone besides me? Yes. >The late novelist Jerzy Kosinski > said that when he was involved in the filming of his novel Being > There, he felt his creative novelistic powers being literaly drained > from his psyche (like cheerful thoughts in the presence of a > Dementor). If it's true that JKR's consulting has slowed her writing, I hope it is draining only her time, not her creative novelistic powers. And I fervently hope that she has learned by now that she can't do it all, and that she should retire to her favorite cafe (can she still write in cafes, or has fame made that impossible?) and write and devote at most 2 hours a week to answering WB's questions. > - CMC (who likes movies, but likes books better) Me too, but I still hope I can have both. Amy Z for whom a Boggart takes on the grinning visage of Steven Spielberg From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 03:09:55 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:09:55 -0000 Subject: more trailer grumpiness (was assorted notes) In-Reply-To: <20010629022736.25440.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hgri3+ntij@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21647 Danette wrote: > I have to say(although > I'm sure someone will disagree with me) that is > actually the end of the game there, only in the book > (sorry can't pull the exact reference my books are > still packed somewhere - I HATE moving) it says the > king threw his "crown" at Harry's feet NOT a sword. > Hollywood! > I can't see the trailer well enough to be sure what's going on here. It is definitely his crown, not his sword, in the book. My gripe of the day: Ron's obvious, redundant "She needs to sort out her priorities" after Hermione's "get us killed--or worse, expelled." I'm hoping these lines are actually from different scenes and don't go together at all; that does get done a lot in trailers. Hermione's line speaks for itself, and Ron's just seems to yell at us, "SEE? WHAT SHE SAID WAS FUNNY! GET IT? HUH?" Amy Z From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Jun 29 03:13:25 2001 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:13:25 -0000 Subject: Obsessing about the trailer - the film - and the Order of the Phoenix Message-ID: <9hgrol+7hj3@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21648 I trust that JKR will eventually get the Order of the Phoenix written and finish the series. I'm excited about the film (although I, too, prefer books big time) because it seems to be congruent with JKR's vision. I was more annoyed that she was writing Quidditch Through the Ages, etc. instead of spending time on Book Five. Comments about the Trailer: Diagon Alley looked exactly like I imagined it would...a combination of the old city in Lindos, Rhodes, Hanoi with its second story shops, and a bunch of wizards/witches thrown in (although I, too, cannot get used to those pointed hats...) I continue to love Albus Dumbledore, and applaud the selection of Richard Harris. His speech at the feast is wonderful...who is the teacher to the right of him? Amazing to see Hagrid on a flying motorcycle, and to think about Sirius Black and what we now know about him..... I felt shivers watching the first years in their boats crossing the lake and seeing Hogwarts for the first time...wow.... I'm having a little bit of a hard time hearing dialogue that wasn't in the book (which is silly, I guess). I expected Maggie Smith to sound like Jim Dale doing McGonagall (I just love Jim Dale -- in the minority again...!) Alan Rickman is perfect as Snape..although it doesn't make me like Snape any more..that voice is perfect..... I love the way Quirrell collapses in the great hall..just as I imagined it.... Invisibility Cloak...we see Harry react as if he were visible, but do others react as if they had seen him? In other words, could he have the invisibility cloak on in those scenes? (oh well, probably not) Fascinating to see so much more of Neville -- on his broom, being magicked by Hermione... Hair..sigh....well, yes, Harry's hair should be sticking up, also Harry should probably not be quite so adorable..... Ook/Hedwig is indeed an amazing creature..that's a wonderful shot...of Hedwig swooping..re Gryffindor and being brave courage? courage isn't not flinching when surprised by an owl..it's much more profound and deep than that sheer physical nerve or bravery... I LOVE Madam Hooch...great gauntlets........ blither, blather, obsess, obsess... Susan (my almost four year old - September -- when seeing the trailer and coming upon the scene where Professor McGonagall leads the students into the great hall said "mommy, we've seen that before".....and said five times tonight "Mommy, can we please watch Harry Powder advertisement again?" It's wonderful to hear a four year old say "There's Snape!" "That's Harry" and "Why those stairs doing that?" Also wonderful to have a perfect excuse for watching the trailer again and again and again] From phantomangel90 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 03:33:21 2001 From: phantomangel90 at hotmail.com (Emma Moniz) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:33:21 -0000 Subject: Music at Hogwarts--Why Not? Message-ID: <9hgsu1+trsv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21649 Someone mentioned Ron, his magical trombone's spit valve and I believe Lavander's feet, and a thought hit me: where is music in the magical world, and, more specifically, in a magical education? Suffer the band geek and potental SAI sister that I am, and ponder. Music is mentioned only in passing throughout the series. The music group called the Wierd Sisters, the Sorting Hat's Song and the School Song. In PS/SS, we read: "'Ah, music,' he [Dumbledore] said, wiping his eyes. 'A magic beyond all we do here!'..." If Dumbledore has such an appreciation for music, which he obviously does, why is there no music at Hogwarts? Musical education is a part of most schools, to varying degrees of importance, from elementary schools through college here in the States. Band, orchestra and chorus are all incorporated into the education of young people. Why is music ignored at Hogwarts? Are there no specifically wizarding instruments or composers? Is music simply perifrial entertainment, like the Wierd Sisters? I personally would like to believe that there is indeed magic inherent in music. The song of the siren, the keening dirge of the banshee...all of these are magical, moreso than anything that comes out of a wand. They are old magics, something that has been mentioned time and time again. Why are they overlooked? Is music not given the emphasis in Britain it is here in the States? Is that why JKR left it out, even in passing? I think Ron's a trombone kind of man. Hermione has the lungs and the discipline for the trumpet. And, simply because I was a drummer chick, give Harry a snare instead of a snitch and let him go to town. ~Emma Gryffindor 8" Mahogany, unicorn hair From JenniferABacker at cs.com Fri Jun 29 03:45:21 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:45:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] About Precy in the trailer Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21650 In a message dated 6/28/01 10:23:42 PM Central Daylight Time, editor at texas.net writes: << Hmph. "All I have is Alan." ALL she has is Alan. Poor, poor, poor baby. >> LOL Trust me, I LOVE that wav! Did you ever get it? Want it? From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 04:02:27 2001 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trailer complaints? Message-ID: <20010629040227.33707.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21651 Atleast we have the trailers to watch until the movie is out! My husabnd downloaded both so we can watch and listen to that haunting music over and over again! We loved what we saw and knew that a movie is always different from the book but atleast we have something to help our imaginations further along until book 5 is out! These trailers will keep us going until November 16th! Our household will be humming that music for a long time! Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From oppen at cnsinternet.com Fri Jun 29 05:07:57 2001 From: oppen at cnsinternet.com (Eric Oppen) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:07:57 -0500 Subject: Answer a question, and some speculations about why the Dursleys Message-ID: <009f01c10059$76df0060$c9c71bce@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 21652 The story that "Ku Klux Klan" comes from the sound of cocking a rifle is an urban legend. The founders' own tale spoke of the "kuklos" taken from the Greek. Keep in mind, the original Klansmen (Reconstruction variety; there have been quite a few organisations over the years that have used this name) were quite proud of themselves and what they did. Sort of like Death Eaters would be, if Lord Voldemort's cause was seen as a noble failure. As for why Harry wasn't left with Sirius Black, as a lifelong bachelor I can tell you that I'd probably be one of the last people that folks would trust with a baby. Not because I'm cruel to children, but just because I don't have any experience with same, and lack "baby-nalia" around the house, which would be there with the Dursleys. In fact, if I _were_ landed with a baby, one word to my circle of friends would bring all the experienced mothers over to my house, mob-handed, to all but snatch the little person away from me before I did something Stupid And Male. I'm sure that if the wizards had known just _how_ hostile the Dursleys would be to little Harry, and how they would treat him, almost any alternative would have looked better (wonder how Hagrid would do with a baby? My own guess is that after a few all-nighters with a crying child, he'd have a new name---Hagridden) than the Dursleys. You know, there's an interesting fanfic in the idea of "what if the Dursleys were very different?" Imagine if HP had been raised to the age of eleven, not by the Dursleys, but by the Corleones! In that case, LV would wake up one morning to find Nagini's severed head in his bed. From BS31988 at msn.com Fri Jun 29 05:07:01 2001 From: BS31988 at msn.com (BS31988 at msn.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 05:07:01 -0000 Subject: Unless...and this is a question for Amy Z... In-Reply-To: <9hgqgv+20a9@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hh2dl+3ota@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21653 Amy Z, Why Steven Spielberg? He's a great director! He'd probably do a better job on this film than Chritopher Comlumbus :::mutters darkly about the choice of director:::. ***D~M~L***, who is pondering whether or not the movie is still going to be worth while with Columbus directing. ______________________________________________________________________ --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > Caius Marcius pleaded: > > > ...doesn't the fact that Book Five is being significantly delayed > > because of this dreadful cinematographication of HP scare the holy > > You-Know-What of anyone besides me? > > Yes. > > >The late novelist Jerzy Kosinski > > said that when he was involved in the filming of his novel Being > > There, he felt his creative novelistic powers being literaly > drained > > from his psyche (like cheerful thoughts in the presence of a > > Dementor). > > If it's true that JKR's consulting has slowed her writing, I hope it > is draining only her time, not her creative novelistic powers. And I > fervently hope that she has learned by now that she can't do it all, > and that she should retire to her favorite cafe (can she still write > in cafes, or has fame made that impossible?) and write and devote at > most 2 hours a week to answering WB's questions. > > > - CMC (who likes movies, but likes books better) > > Me too, but I still hope I can have both. > > Amy Z > for whom a Boggart takes on the grinning visage of Steven Spielberg From crabtree at ktc.com Fri Jun 29 05:20:39 2001 From: crabtree at ktc.com (crabtree at ktc.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 05:20:39 -0000 Subject: Snape-Harry Message-ID: <9hh377+bp23@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21654 I feel that if Snape it acting as a spy for Dumbledore, he has to keep up appearances in front of the death eaters. That means he has to appear evil to the Gryffindor house in order to impress all of those "Baby Death Eaters." He wouldn't want any of them going home to tell dad that Snape was decent to Harry or anyone else - other than them. I truly believe that Snape hates Harry because of the hatred he felt for James. However, after listening to Barty Crouch's confession, realizing that Harry didn't put his own name into the goblet, and knowing that Harry wasn't the one who had stolen the ingredients for the Polyjuice Potion from his office, Snape has to be looking at Harry from a different perspective. This is evident in the final feast in GoF when Harry looks at Snape and can't read his expression, then Snape looks away from Harry first. This seems to be a sign that Snape is "backing down" from Harry. Now, will this affect the way Snape treats Harry in the next book? It can't. At the very least Snape will have to keep up appearances for the "little snakes in the dungeons." Besides, he still believes that Harry gets away with too much and deserves to be punished more often. To all of you who are less timid than those of us who spend most of our time lurking in the shadows, thank you for the hours of enjoyment from reading your posts. ********************************************************************* My 17 year old daughter shares my obsession; my husband accepts it; and my 20 year old son recommends theropy for the three of us. My daughter and I are going to see A.I. Friday. Can't wait to see the trailer on the big screen. ProfessorPhlash Mesquite, Pegasus feather, 11 inches (We have our own wand maker in Texas.) From joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 06:19:13 2001 From: joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com (joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 06:19:13 -0000 Subject: Trailer: Hooch's Eyes In-Reply-To: <20010629015245.22614.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hh6l1+po17@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21655 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amber wrote: > > Oh, for some reason Hooch's eyes look yellow to me. Not bright yellow, > but definitely a very light color. Of course, it could just be my eyes > acting up on me... > Having just seen the trailer on the big screen (AI sneak preview!), I can say that they definitely looked yellow to me. It goes by quickly, but I guess I noticed because I happened to be looking at her eyes at the time and the color just registered in my mind. It probably helped that it was on a large theater screen too. :) They weren't bright per se. There was just a moment when the light hit it and they looked rather light goldish yellow. -Joy the lemur From bugganeer at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 06:34:27 2001 From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 06:34:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's wand, Accents In-Reply-To: <9hgiml+hph8@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hh7hj+dohp@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21656 That may have been a wand he was testing at Ollivander's before trying the Holly one. I loved the accents. They didn't take long to get used to. Wicked. Bugg rainy_lilac wrote: > > Don't those prop people understand that HOLLY (the material of which Harry's wand is made)is a pale ivory white??? In its natural shade, it is one of the palest and lightest woods you can find. Which is why it goes so splendidly with ebony for holly and ebony onlays. > > The wand I see in this trailer is a dark walnut color. Argh. Sorry, nobody picks over details as much as I do. > > Suzanne From BS31988 at msn.com Fri Jun 29 06:42:05 2001 From: BS31988 at msn.com (BS31988 at msn.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 06:42:05 -0000 Subject: Er...about Harry's Scar... Message-ID: <9hh7vt+1h36@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21657 ...did anyone see how it was placed on Harry's forehead? It was more off to the left (when you see him head-on) rather than right above the bridge of his nose. I thought JK mentioned somewhere in the books that it was placed smack in the middle of Harry's forehead. ***Draco~Malfoy~Lover***, who is pondering about all the little improvisations WB has made... From Allyse at my-deja.com Fri Jun 29 07:19:13 2001 From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:19:13 -0000 Subject: In defense of JKR's view of Hufflepuff and (to a lesser degree) Ravenclaw In-Reply-To: <9hfts9+fnla@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hha5h+hm6m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21658 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote: > I have to defend JKR's stance on Hufflepuff for a moment here. I > think the whole "Hufflepuff are duffers" thing is thrown out there to > show us that this is what people generally believe about hard > workers, that they are too stupid to be anywhere better. I think that > JKR is gently unraveling that stereotype for us, by showing us that > there is much more to them than that I just wanted to applaud this marvelous post that doesn't deserved to get buried in a flurry of trailer comments! :) Very well done. I think the Hufflepuff "stigma" is mostly among students (let's face it, Hagrid is still a kid at heart ). If I had to hire someone for a responsible job, I would be much more interested in someone with the admirable traits of hard-working loyalty than bravery (who knows how they'd misuse equipment or endanger the work force) or ambition (too much ambition and they'll be running off to the first new employer who offers a higher salary). And even intelligence, if it isn't matched with application, wouldn't do much good. So three cheers for Sprout and her students! Allyse From shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 08:05:53 2001 From: shall at sfiweb.demon.co.uk (Susan Hall) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:05:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c10072$5119c680$0101010a@w98-1> No: HPFGUIDX 21659 >Sorry I can't answer your actual question :) The scar shoudl be in the >middle, though, it looks more proportioned that way. Somehow, I can't quite imagine the revived Voldemort turning to his personal design consultant and saying "I do so hate that off-centre assymetric look, it's just so last decade. If only I'd hit him dead centre in the first place. Can we lighten up the look with some strategic MDF motifs, glued and painted, do you suppose?" Susan From jacqbeagle at bigpond.com Fri Jun 29 09:55:17 2001 From: jacqbeagle at bigpond.com (jacqbeagle at bigpond.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:55:17 -0000 Subject: HP/Python casting In-Reply-To: <9hg5cc+ho65@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hhja5+7lmr@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21660 Barb wrote: >Incidentally, I can't get it out of my head that Michael Palin >should play Rita Skeeter in drag, using a very high-pitched Pepper >Pot voice...(Python fans know what I mean). Good but disturbing - I personally find Mr Palin to be incredibly sexy. I don't imagine this would work for Rita Rowena (who has not read GOF yet - so I'm just speculating) From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 10:12:45 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Harry couldn't live with Sirius (and a few other questions) In-Reply-To: <20010629001809.94639.qmail@web14402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010629101245.9327.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21661 > 3. Sirius. One minute he wants the child and is > apparently in a long argument with Hagrid, the next he > gives away his motorbike and sys he won't need it > again. Is it shock? it's hard imagine him carrying > Harry to the Pettigrew confrontation. What would he do > with him? Not really. His first instinct (and he is in shock, as you say) is to take Harry but when Hagrid says no, Black's next instinct is to think "Right then, I'm going to hunt down Pettigrew and kill him. It will probably cost me my life and my bike should go to someone I can trust." Black is a very emotional guy at the best of times and this was definitely NOT even close to the best of times. I'm still a little foggy on the actual time chronology of that day that the Potters died and who did what when. Anyone want to put it together. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From tabouli at unite.com.au Fri Jun 29 10:28:50 2001 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 20:28:50 +1000 Subject: Trailer trials, ghosts, Gilderoy, elves, actors & the paternal Hagrid Message-ID: <005801c10086$633945c0$a1846fcb@price> No: HPFGUIDX 21662 Now I've quit my job I don't have access to a system fast enough to view the new trailer!! Gahhh! That, my home computer won't run it on the slowest settings of any of the available video-running whatchacallems. Is there no hope? Will I have to bribe someone with a faster modem, or is there some crafty way of persuading a 33600 modem to whir fast enough to let me at it? Rita: >Why are the other ghosts and the poltergeist scared of the Bloody Baron? This is something I've been dying to know since Book 1. It's interesting to know what frightened ghosts are actually frightened *of*... after all, sticks and stones will no longer hurt their bones, they're dead already! Must be something sinisterly psychological. Humiliation, intimidation, etc? Was Nearly Headless Nick afraid of the mythical "rough crowd" in the Shrieking Shack because he thought they might add inverted snobbery insult to his already ignominiously inadequate injury? hfakhro: > Gilderoy Lockhart, however, was immaculate in sweeping robes of turquoise, his golden hair shining under a perfectly positioned turquoise hat with gold trimming. > The second thing this passage tells us is that she is more sensible than Molly Weasley and Hermione, in not falling for the charms of Lockhart (and they are two of the most sensible characters in the books!) Alas that Lockhart won't be appearing again (JKR called him a one joke character): on rereading CoS, I really started to wonder about his history. Now assuming he went to Hogwarts, what house do you think *he* was in? Slytherin, surely! And how old is the git? (Steve?) Might he have been at school with Snape and the Marauders, a meek, mousy individual until Memory Charms and Platinum Potion changed his life? Amy: > Dobby, once released, is much more powerful than a wizard. All he has to do is point a finger and LM slinks off. This may be raw magical power or just authority--perhaps the taboo against contradicting the wish of one's ex-house-elf is so strong that even LM won't break it. You know, the powers of those house-elves do intrigue me. If their wandless magical might is so magnificent, how did they come to be enslaved in the first place? A general lack of brains to temper their powers, leading to a symbiotic relationship with witches and wizards? And are the other humanoids, such as goblins, giants, hags, Veela, etc. similarly powerful? Certainly the half-trained Hagrid doesn't seem to have an extra dose of giant juice in his spells, though the fact that Veela hair can be used in wands suggests that Fleur might harbour a volume of Veela vim... Saitaina: > what 11 year old uses enough hairspray and gel to make his hair resistant to a tornado? For the record, my little brother was well and truly onto the mousse by the age of 11. Gave his hair a sort of wood shaving consistency, slices of hair that quivered in the wind. Me, I think immaculate hair rather suits Malfoy's smooth, snooty persona, though were I to add my whinge quota I wish it looked less obviously peroxided against his roots and brown eyes (futile wish, but every time I see the actor it irks me, much as Dominique Swain's brown roots in Lolita annoyed me. For God's sake, surely the budget would have stretched to a couple of touchups!). Of the trio, the boy playing Harry is the one who sits least well with my mental image. His face is a bit too round and silken (especially in the last scene in trailer 1), his hair too sleek (yes, I agree they should have dyed it black and messed it up more!)... I imagined him skinnier and scruffier than Daniel Radcliffe as he looks in excerpts to date: I pictured him as a green-eyed, boyhood version of my friend Andrew in Adelaide, who truly is skinny with glasses and springy, unruly black hair (albeit with blue eyes). I told him he should get green contacts and try out for the role of James Potter! Emma Watson is remarkably close to how I imagined Hermione, which seems to surprise everyone, who mostly declared her too pretty for the role. However, I think at age 11 a girl whose strongest identifying feature is her know-all braininess is likely to have rendered her looks more or less irrelevant to her classmates unless some change draws attention to them (see the Yule Ball). A friend of mine who had a very abusive childhood and bad self-esteem spent her year at a residential college being resident loser. She walked around half hunched over with ratty hair sounding desperate and fragile and apologetic and utterly uncool, and when she unleashed herself at the annual ball in a dashing, revealing red dress to have a conventionally stunning figure, perfect skin and deep blue eyes everyone's heads were positively swivelling in shock and disbelief. Similarly, the "beautiful popular girls" people were muttering about a few weeks ago often aren't that spectacular if you scrutinise them closely, people just assume they are because of their social status and confident body language. The gulf between good looks and attractiveness is deeper than Hollywood would have us believe... Eric: > (wonder how Hagrid would do with a baby? My own guess is that after a few all-nighters with a crying child, he'd have a new name---Hagridden) Then again, look at Hagrid's patient tenderness with Norbert! Can't find my copy of PS at the moment, but I seem to remember him rising every couple of hours to dose the little monster with chicken blood and whiskey and clucking indulgently at his foibles. I'm sure he'd have melted at the feisty screams of infant Harry at 4 in the morning. Hagrid thrives on creatures that are troublesome and destructive and difficult to look after. He'd adore a two year old boy who toddled about putting forks in electric sockets and eating spiders! Not that I'm saying he'd have been a good foster father, mind you: Harry would have probably been eaten by one of his pets or poisoned by his cooking before he reached the age of 3. I just think the trials of raising a baby would have been the least of Hagrid's worries... The alliterative Tabouli [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meakerfamily at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 12:36:37 2001 From: meakerfamily at earthlink.net (meakerfamily at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:36:37 -0000 Subject: Exchange on GoF Message-ID: <9hhsol+p5n1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21663 Hi, Does anyone know exactly what that exchange in GoF was between Dumbledore, Sirius and Severus? From something along the lines of "There are 2 of us who should know each other for who they are" to Severus leaving the room. I am a dedicated audio version listner and don't have the actual words available. Thanks Pax, Crys From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 29 12:36:50 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:36:50 -0000 Subject: Movie as canon? (was notes on the trailer frame-by-frame) In-Reply-To: <9hgfsd+oriv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hhsp2+qa6s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21664 Steve Vander Ark wrote: > Madam Hooch wears falconers gauntlets. Her eyes are yellow in the book, but apparently they aren't in the film. Her whistle is shaped like a feather. and then: > I know the movie isn't canon, but I think it can be counted on to interpret visually what JKR wants, since she's given so much input. And I think she visualized it like this. Thank you, Steve! As usual, a few words paint a thousand pictures. You have raised an issue that has been bothering me. You can imagine JKR saying to WB: "It's very important that Hooch wears gauntlets and has a whistle shaped like a feather, but I can't tell you why, and you mustn't breathe a word to a SOUL." In the book, she can get away with just not describing things that she wants to conceal for now - eg no whomping willow in PS. In the movie things like Hooch's whistle have to be given definition. Of course another author might just let a whole lot of stuff slide that would be inconsistent between later movies (will they keep the same cast over 7 movies?), but not our Jo. What might we be able to deduce and what status will it have? Will there be (have there been) rumours from the set that might originate in a JKR instruction of some sort? BTW, we sat on benches at meals in our Hall at college - I hadn't imagined anything different, so the movie is anyway a good spur to sorting out matters of intepretation. David, wondering whether we will be allowed to see Alan Rickman's canines. From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Jun 29 12:38:59 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:38:59 -0000 Subject: Python casting,house elf magic, secret keepers,Draco&Hermione&DEs Message-ID: <9hhst3+dkok@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21665 As for Pythons playing persons of the HP universe, I'd cast young Eric Idle as Gilderoy Lockhart (remember Loretta in Life of Brian?) Tabouli wrote: "You know, the powers of those house-elves do intrigue me. If their wandless magical might is so magnificent, how did they come to be enslaved in the first place?" I hope it's not politically incorrect or something, but I could think of a parallel thing in our poor Muggle world: We have noses and dogs have noses. Dogs have their olfactive abilities developed in a much more impressive way than we have. Anyway, it was us to fly to the moon first.(So much for the seemingly more powerful magic of house elves) But the fact of being able to smell something that's 10 km away doesn't prevent a dog from becoming a domesticated animal. Even if during the first, let's say, 2000 years it made no difference to dogs whether they were domesticated or not, nowadays, after thousands of years of domesticated existence and evolution, most of them depend on us to survive in a "dignified" way. Hope this doesn't sound too stupid. Marsha wrote: "3. James Potter must have been truly reckless. If he thought there was a suspicion of one of his 3 friends being a traitor, he should have picked Dumbledore for the secret keeper. Or at least stuck with Sirius, since he's Potter's best friend, and James seems to be 100% sure of him, that leaves either Lupin or Pettigrew as the traitor, and a 50/50 chance is too much to take in this instance. There is no doubt that if Dumbledore suspects a traitor, there must be one." That's true, but think of this: If you believe in and fight for a cause and on your side there is the *one* charismatic leader on whose personality and ability to integrate your group probably depends your victory, would you really risk this leader to be endangered because you made him your secret keeper? IMHO, chosing not Dumbledore but somebody else was not recklessness, but a sign of great sense of responsibility towards the anti-V community. Caius Marcius wrote: "And also, the campground DEs were a pretty cowardly lot, picking only on helpless Muggles, and dispersing as soon as the Dark Mark was projected. Without Voldy, IMO they would have been too craven to have attacked anyone with magical prowess who could have struck back (meaning Hermione was safe)" Yes, but what did YOU expect from a lot like that? Given that we have already discussed KKK and Nazi- similarities so many times, I think it obvious that DEs won't make a very different choice of victims: known group phenomenon. And I can't agree with you about Hermione's being safe because of being able to do magic: Cowards as they may be, they are full blown wizards against whom Hermione would *never* stand a chance. The only reason I can imagine for Draco not attracting the DE's attention to Hermione, is his fear of the possible consequences for himself: Imagine him calling the DEs with Harry and Ron as eye witnesses!? He would be expelled from Hogwarts and maybe not even admitted to Durmstrang. Susanna (who just got herself a new PC at home and dies to leave her office, run home and see the TRAILER!!!!) From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 29 12:46:02 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:46:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione/Draco question In-Reply-To: <9hgn2n+rs9k@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hhtaa+n7m2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21666 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I was reading GOF yesterday, I was at the part when the Death > Eaters were wearing hoods and destroying Muggles for entertainment. > Malfoy makes a statement that is similar to "You better go hide, you > wouldn't want her to get into trouble" referring to Hermione. Now as > bratty as this sounds...if he really wanted to see Hermione hurt (as > one would suspect, considering he's never really showed any respect > towards her before) why would he even suggest that she could possibly > in danger by staying out in the open. It seems to me that in an odd, > maybe even snape like way, he was trying to help Hermione. Does > anyone else see this? Or am i out of my mind? > > IMO, Draco just wants to make sure that Harry, Ron and Hermione know > that he's "inside the loop," privy to all kinds of top secret > information that the impoverished and Mudbloods lack access to. Exactly. And why is it important to Draco to impress his importance on H,H and R? This scene shows he's vulnerable, whatever may be going on on the surface. Fast forward to the ball. David From pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it Fri Jun 29 12:48:08 2001 From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it (=?iso-8859-1?q?Susanne=20Schmid?=) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:48:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Exchange on GoF In-Reply-To: <9hhsol+p5n1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010629124808.5314.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21667 Well, not exactly, as I haven't got the book with me, but here you are: D. asks Sirius to assume his human form which he does, causing great shock to Mrs. Weasley and making Severus literally freeze with anger. But Sirius and Severus have to shake hands and bury their old conflict for a while, in the interest of the common cause uniting them. They do so, quite unwillingly, then D. gives out orders: Sirius has to go and get together what D. calls "the old crowd" (Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher etc.), taking headquarters at Lupin's; Snape's task is not clearly formulated, D. just says something like "you know what I have to ask you to do, if you feel ready to do it". Then Sirius transforms back into a dog and leaves, followed by Snape. It is supposed, however, that Snape is going to reassume his role as a double agent with Voldemort, a task certainly not too pleasant, given that he did not apparate at his side when called. Susanna/pigwidgeon37 --- meakerfamily at earthlink.net ha scritto:
Hi,

Does anyone know exactly what that exchange in GoF was between
Dumbledore, Sirius and Severus? From something along the lines
of "There are 2 of us who should know each other for who they are" to
Severus leaving the room. I am a dedicated audio version listner and
don't have the actual words available.

Thanks
Pax,
Crys
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______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Jun 29 12:54:26 2001 From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:54:26 -0000 Subject: I hate to talk about the trailer, but... Message-ID: <9hhtq2+ibsf@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21668 I must admit it - I've been skipping most of the posts about the trailer. Perhaps, though, it is because my computer will not allow me to properly see the trailer. Last night my friend (who'll be joining this site as soon as she finishes GoF) got on her computer and I listened to the trailer over the phone (yes, I know how pathetic that is). I got very excited when I heard Harry's own voice reading his Hogwarts letter. Why? I'm a New Yorker, see, and it's hard to read the books and think of their British accents at the same time. I also like the music, even though I'm sure others have heartily complained about it. John Williams can do no wrong in my book. Anyone who can make the music to "Schindler's List" and bring me to tears every time I hear it is a genius. --jenny from ravenclaw, who would rather that November 16 be the date that OoP hits the shelves********************************* From atwood at netvision.net.il Fri Jun 29 14:05:47 2001 From: atwood at netvision.net.il (Akiva Atwood) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:05:47 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] assorted notes on the trailer frame-by-frame In-Reply-To: <9hgfsd+oriv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000201c100a4$9b44d2e0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21669 > a cage, but there aren't many Snowy owls around. Note the hanging > balls on the sign on the right - I can't rembember my symbols, but > isn't that the sign of an apothecary? Or is it a pawnshop? Pawnshop. Akiva From reanna20 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 13:07:39 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 06:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Music at Hogwarts--Why Not? In-Reply-To: <9hgsu1+trsv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010629130739.33310.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21670 --- Emma Moniz wrote: > I personally would like to believe that there is indeed magic > inherent in music. The song of the siren, the keening dirge of the > banshee...all of these are magical, moreso than anything that comes > out of a wand. They are old magics, something that has been > mentioned time and time again. Why are they overlooked? Is music > not given the emphasis in Britain it is here in the States? Is that > why JKR left it out, even in passing? I think that JKR hasn't enough time or space to mention it in the books. And as for music not being taught at Hogwarts, perhaps there are specific schools for magic music like Durmstrang seems to be a school that focuses on the Dark Arts. And I do think that there are wizarding composers. The notion of the "Bard" seems popular throughout fantasy literature. And we've only seen four books. Music as magic might come up within the next three. We have seen a bit of that with Fluffy in the first book. I know I'd like to see more mention of the Creative Arts in the wizarding world (theatre, art, music, etc) > I think Ron's a trombone kind of man. Hermione has the lungs and the > discipline for the trumpet. And, simply because I was a drummer > chick, give Harry a snare instead of a snitch and let him go to town. As a former female trumpet player myself, I love the idea of Hermione playing trumpet. She can show those power-obsessed, ego-maniac males that insist that the person who plays the highest note is by default the best a thing or two. I agree that Ron's a trombone. He could even carry off the tuba since he's so tall. I see Harry as a trumpet or alto sax for some reason. But a snare works as well! Does anyone else just *see* Draco being forced to play the flute? Er, maybe not... Dang, I miss band... ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/21/2001 "It never happened if there is no memory of it. Human memory is just a record. You can rewrite the record." - Serial Experiments Lain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From pbnesbit at msn.com Fri Jun 29 13:17:46 2001 From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:17:46 -0000 Subject: Trailer problems Message-ID: <9hhv5q+k3d2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21671 Hi, everyone! Is anyone else having problems with the trailer on the official site? I've tried to watch it twice; the first time I merely got a 'one item remaining' message & the second time I tried it seemed to seize up. Am I just not giving the thing enough time to load? Thanks in advance. Peace & Plenty, Parker Keeper of Remus Lupin's heart Keeper of Sirius Black's body Keeper of Severus Snape's soul From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 13:28:59 2001 From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:28:59 -0000 Subject: Trailer problems In-Reply-To: <9hhv5q+k3d2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hhvqr+q3ca@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21672 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote: > Hi, everyone! > > Is anyone else having problems with the trailer on the official site? > > I've tried to watch it twice; the first time I merely got a 'one item > remaining' message & the second time I tried it seemed to seize up. > Am I just not giving the thing enough time to load? > > Thanks in advance. > > Peace & Plenty, > > Parker > > Keeper of Remus Lupin's heart > Keeper of Sirius Black's body > Keeper of Severus Snape's soul I've been having the same problem. I can watch it on RealPlayer without any difficulties, but I really want to see it on Quicktime and I am getting the same "one item remaining" problem. Perhaps it will be easier in a few days time when the site isn't so busy with people trying to download/view it. Catherine From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 13:47:13 2001 From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:47:13 -0000 Subject: Ancient/Old Magic In-Reply-To: <9hgq81+457t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hi0t1+d85g@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21673 > Old/Ancient magic seems to be incredibly powerful - not even Voldy > can countermand it. This would not seem to be the magic which is > taught at Hogwarts, but a more esoteric magic perhaps open only to > the more spirtually ambitious (which may mean either striving toward > a greater purity or a greater corruption). > > - CMC ______________________ This somehow invokes memories of Lewis's Narnia and Aslan and Deep Magic. In Lewis's world, this Deep Magic seems to be tied into the natural order of things in the same way that gravity is part of the natural order of things. Everytime I think about Dumbledore's ancient magic, I try to make this comparison, though I'm wondering if it is a stretch seeing as we are talking about two different worlds here. - Jamie From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu Fri Jun 29 14:05:15 2001 From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:05:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione/Draco question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21674 > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I was reading GOF yesterday, I was at the part when the Death > Eaters were wearing hoods and destroying Muggles for entertainment. > Malfoy makes a statement that is similar to "You better go hide, you > wouldn't want her to get into trouble" referring to Hermione. Now as > bratty as this sounds...if he really wanted to see Hermione hurt (as > one would suspect, considering he's never really showed any respect > towards her before) why would he even suggest that she could possibly > in danger by staying out in the open. It seems to me that in an odd, > maybe even snape like way, he was trying to help Hermione. Does > anyone else see this? Or am i out of my mind? > not a bit! I have my own views in my fanfic-draco universe, but I think that even Canon!Draco does not much like to see messy violence right up close. He fled from Voldemort when he saw him drinking the Unicorn blood in the forest 1st year, for example, and even the curses he's thrown aren't particularly messy ones (tickling charm? big teeth?) And if he called the death eaters over, or handed Hermione to them, he would've been directly involved in the unplesantness, and he seems to have a disinclination to get his hands dirty. Clearly, Lucius doesn't have the same disinclination at this point (this scene is another peg in my Draco Is Redeemable bulletin-board) From matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com Fri Jun 29 14:49:07 2001 From: matt.dawdy at gpsys-inc.com (Matthew Dawdy) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:49:07 -0500 Subject: Hermione/Draco question In-Reply-To: <993802043.74741.72934.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21675 > Melanie Brackney wrote > > It seems to me that in an > odd, maybe even snape like way, he was trying to help Hermione. > Does anyone else see this? Or am i out of my mind? I see what you mean, but I don't buy it. Personally, I think his warning was said to inspire fear in HRH, rather than warn Hermione. He's been nothing but mean to her the entire time. Now, I want to apologize for that message I sent a day or so ago -- it was supposed to go purely to my list elf Joy -- too tired to be on the computer some days. Matt From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 14:53:52 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer problems In-Reply-To: <9hhv5q+k3d2@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010629145352.95916.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21676 I will tell you it took me 9 (yes NINE) tries to get the Quicktime trailer off the official site. However I also have to say "IT WAS WORTH IT!" (Sorry for the screaming but it did take me until almost 2 am to get the thing and I was very happy about it). So I can symphithize with you about the trailer. Danette --- pbnesbit at msn.com wrote: > Hi, everyone! > > Is anyone else having problems with the trailer on > the official site? > > I've tried to watch it twice; the first time I > merely got a 'one item > remaining' message & the second time I tried it > seemed to seize up. > Am I just not giving the thing enough time to load? > > Thanks in advance. > > Peace & Plenty, > > Parker > > Keeper of Remus Lupin's heart > Keeper of Sirius Black's body > Keeper of Severus Snape's soul > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 15:07:36 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:07:36 -0000 Subject: Trailer: Hooch's Eyes In-Reply-To: <9hh6l1+po17@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hi5jo+pudv@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21677 Joy_the_lemur wrote: > Having just seen the trailer on the big screen (AI sneak > preview!), I can say that they definitely looked yellow to me. All right! ::looks around for someone to high-five:: This is just the kind of picayune detail I'm hoping the filmmakers attend to. Amy Z who loves lemurs, especially ringtails P.S. Re: D~M~L's query, I'm posting my Spielberg rant over on OT-Chatter. You may take that as an inducement or a warning. From crowswolf at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 29 15:12:37 2001 From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:12:37 -0000 Subject: Trailer problems In-Reply-To: <20010629145352.95916.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hi5t5+gl4k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21678 Hello All!!! --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Danette Schardt-Cordova wrote: > I will tell you it took me 9 (yes NINE) tries to get > the Quicktime trailer off the official site. However > I also have to say "IT WAS WORTH IT!" (Sorry for the > screaming but it did take me until almost 2 am to get > the thing and I was very happy about it). So I can > symphithize with you about the trailer. > > Danette > I cannot view the trailer!!! It won't work for me off the official website...does anyone know anywhere else I can see it? I've seen the stills, and I NEED to see it!! Help!! Many thanx and hugs Jamieson From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 29 15:19:09 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:19:09 -0000 Subject: Protection at the Dursleys (was Sirius) In-Reply-To: <9hgnh0+ms7t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hi69d+21qb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21679 Jamie wrote: > > But it's not a theory - it's fact. (Well, in a HP canon sense that > is) Voldemort himself says "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he > has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in > ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange > the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the > boy's protection as long as he is in his relation's care. Not even I > can touch him there...." (GoF ch.33) > > But now *all* i want to know about how this ancient magic > works.....anyone have any ideas? > > - Jamie My understanding - and really we have very little yo go on - is that the ancient magic is something that is already 'there', but it needs invoking. That is, it's not just a (very old) spell cast by Dumbledore which would have worked anywhere, but neither is every child living with relatives automatically safe. In the case of the Dursleys, a good guess might be that it's possible to protect a wizard child from magical harm if: they live with their last remaining (close - how close?) relatives *and* these relatives are Muggles *and* the wizard child practices no (deliberate) magic while under their care. This would explain why it's so important that Harry not practice magic while all the others get away with, well, not actual murder but explosions etc. Also it would still allow Harry to be hurt by normal means such as Dudley's gang. By rights, Dumbledore invoking the magic should have some hidden cost: when he grows up Harry will have to go to the Well at the World's End and do whatever the old lady (transfigured young maiden) tells him to do, or some such. Or there's a picture, or a rose, in the Dursley's attic. Or there's a 'secret keeper' type of person (Mrs Figg?). Or something. I don't see Lily's protection as 'invoking' anything. She loved Harry; she died protecting him; that's enough to stop AK. It wouldn't have worked if Voldemort had used a gun. There would be something about the *quality* of her love for Harry that mattered, or, though I hope it's not quite like this, the purity of her character (I think D almost says as much at the end of PS), else Harry wouldn't be so unusual in this respect. In ther any relationship or interaction between the Lily-protection and the Dursley-protection, perhaps via Petunia? David, imagining a scene where the Dursleys defeat Voldemort by locking him in the cupboard under the stairs, which they can do because V has Harry's blood in him... From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 15:17:53 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:17:53 -0000 Subject: In defense of JKR's view of Hufflepuff (Sprout particularly) In-Reply-To: <9hfts9+fnla@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hi671+clr4@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21680 hfakhro wrote Another place Sprout makes an appearance is in the telling-off-Lockhart scene (CS 16). The Man from Slytherin takes the lead, but she's the first time to chime in after him. Way to go, Professor Sprout! Amy Z ----------------------------------------------------------- "You've got just as much right as wizards to be unhappy!" -HP and the Goblet of Fire ----------------------------------------------------------- From meakerfamily at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 15:37:23 2001 From: meakerfamily at earthlink.net (Meaker Domus Ludus) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:37:23 -0500 Subject: Horribly dissapointed References: <9hi5jo+pudv@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <002d01c100b1$65740c00$60090e3f@ELNmeakerfam> No: HPFGUIDX 21681 I really hope no one here will be horribly disappointed (and I don't doubt everyone will ) when Hollywood (a collective Hollywood, but the WB is among the worst) manages to take this movie and screw it up so bad it is hardly recognizable. Books do not make good movies. Period. I give you The two attempts at the Lord of the Rings as glaring examples of what can happen when Horrorwood decides to put a book on film. Examples in HP movie are things like: Hagrid is twice the height of a normal man. The actor is not. Lots of visual stunts will be missed. Ghosts. Theoretically they should be computer animated, unless they can find a way for people to stand in the actor portraying him when they get to CoS. The broomstick. Came in a box. Period. Cope. Fix it. It was a big deal in the book. The Human Mind . I like the actor they have for Snape, but he's just too full in the face and not quite tall enough. That's the Snape in my mind. Their Ron is not the same (too short, IMO they should have gone for an older, taller but younger looking actor) the Hagrid (also too short) and Dumbledore looks like a thousand Merlins before him. And their Hermione!!!!!!! GODS grant me patience!! I take my hat off, however, to Rowling who gave the thumbs down to Speilberg who would have made a movie worthy of throwing rotten eggs at, I have NO doubt. He owuld have moved the story to HIS audience -- iow, Americans. And it is NOT an american movie. The more aimed towards Americans it is, the less I like it (and *I* am American). They also do a pretty good job pronouncing their Latin (I will wait and see how they pronounce Severus before I'm satisfied) Well, I took my turn, I'm happy. Pax, Crys Severus Snapes True Love http://home.earthlink.net/~crysmeaker/sstl/ From blpurdom at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 15:42:08 2001 From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:42:08 -0000 Subject: Trailer trials, ghosts, Gilderoy, elves, actors & the paternal Hagrid In-Reply-To: <005801c10086$633945c0$a1846fcb@price> Message-ID: <9hi7kg+grtq@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21682 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > Now I've quit my job I don't have access to a system fast enough to > view the new trailer!! Gahhh! That, my home computer won't run it > on the slowest settings of any of the available video-running > whatchacallems. Is there no hope? I'm going to try to view it online at my public library. If your local library has computers with access to the web, try that. If that doesn't work, my other option is the local science museum (Franklin Institute, in Philadelphia) where they also have computers that access the web. I really need to upgrade my system! > Alas that Lockhart won't be appearing again (JKR called him a one > joke character): on rereading CoS, I really started to wonder about > his history. Now assuming he went to Hogwarts, what house do you > think *he* was in? Slytherin, surely! It would also be interesting to know what houses some of the other teachers were in as well. Sprout and Flitwick were presumably in Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw, and McGonagall in Gryffindor. What about Madam Hooch? Professor Sinistra? (I'm guessing Slytherin, with that name.) Professor Vector? (Arithmancy is tough on the brain; I'm going with Ravenclaw.) And do we even know who teaches Ancient Runes or Muggle Studies? Might that be what Madam Hooch does with the rest of her time? A Muggle Studies teacher seems like a Hufflepuff candidate for some reason (certainly NOT Slytherin), while Ancient Runes seems like either Ravenclaw or Slytherin. And what about Madam Pomfrey and Filch? So many questions... --Barb Get Psyched Out! HP_Psych at yahoogroups.com http://minzzer.tripod.com/serpent/serpentmain.htm From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 15:46:24 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:46:24 -0000 Subject: Trailer: Scar In-Reply-To: <000901c10072$5119c680$0101010a@w98-1> Message-ID: <9hi7sg+fnc1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21683 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Susan Hall" wrote: > Somehow, I can't quite imagine the revived Voldemort turning to his personal > design consultant and saying "I do so hate that off-centre assymetric look, > it's just so last decade. If only I'd hit him dead centre in the first > place. Can we lighten up the look with some strategic MDF motifs, glued and > painted, do you suppose?" > ROFL, Susan! Who d'you suppose is his personal design consultant? Crabbe Sr.? Can we clear this up right now? I will personally send $20 to the first person who can point to evidence in the books (non-JKR illustrations don't count) that the scar is dead center. I see it that way, along with 99% of the fandom, but it isn't canon. JKR even said something in an interview about imagining baby H turning his head when the big scary man came after him (or maybe in response to the flash of light?) and getting hit off-center. (Bad Amy, I have no reference--but go forth and seek it in the Holy Lexicon if you want the specifics). There is, of course, that exasperating, invisible-scarred Harry in the deluxe edition of PS/SS; JKR drawings are canon, no? (Though they can be wrong, like her assertion that there are 1000 students at Hogwarts .) Perhaps we've all been missing it because we've been looking in the middle of his forehead where she puts a bit of bangs, and it's actually over his right eye? Amy Z --------------------------------------------------------- "We didn't give it to him because he's a Muggle!" said Fred indignantly. "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying git," said George. "Isn't he, Harry?" "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly. --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire ---------------------------------------------------------- From ender_w at msn.com Fri Jun 29 16:08:53 2001 From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:08:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer problems References: <20010629145352.95916.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001701c100b5$cc4159c0$a6421e3f@satellite> No: HPFGUIDX 21684 It took me one try, but i had to wait nearly an hour while it downloaded. ender ----- Original Message ----- From: Danette Schardt-Cordova To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Trailer problems I will tell you it took me 9 (yes NINE) tries to get the Quicktime trailer off the official site. However I also have to say "IT WAS WORTH IT!" (Sorry for the screaming but it did take me until almost 2 am to get the thing and I was very happy about it). So I can symphithize with you about the trailer. Danette --- pbnesbit at msn.com wrote: > Hi, everyone! > > Is anyone else having problems with the trailer on > the official site? > > I've tried to watch it twice; the first time I > merely got a 'one item > remaining' message & the second time I tried it > seemed to seize up. > Am I just not giving the thing enough time to load? > > Thanks in advance. > > Peace & Plenty, > > Parker > > Keeper of Remus Lupin's heart > Keeper of Sirius Black's body > Keeper of Severus Snape's soul > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________ All OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't. Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bohners at pobox.com Fri Jun 29 16:03:26 2001 From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:03:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer: Scar References: <9hi7sg+fnc1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <0c9801c100b5$0ae75d60$0938acce@rebeccab> No: HPFGUIDX 21685 May I meekly put my hand up and confess that I not only have no problem at all with Harry's scar not being in the centre of his forehead, but that I actually prefer it where it is in the trailer? I mean, Voldemort wasn't exactly measuring Harry's forehead with his wand before he cursed him, so it makes perfect sense to me that the scar would be off-centre. I never quite liked the cover art (especially in the American editions) for that reason. My only complaint would be that I think Harry's scar ought to be at an angle, as well. Straight vertical with a bit of a zig-zag in it is just too neat for me. -- Rebecca J. Bohner rebeccaj at pobox.com http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jun 29 16:13:02 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:13:02 -0000 Subject: Trailer: Scar In-Reply-To: <9hi7sg+fnc1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hi9ee+hfdn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21686 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" wrote: > > Can we clear this up right now? I will personally send $20 to the > first person who can point to evidence in the books (non-JKR > illustrations don't count) that the scar is dead center. I see it > that way, along with 99% of the fandom, but it isn't canon. JKR even > said something in an interview about imagining baby H turning his head > when the big scary man came after him (or maybe in response to the > flash of light?) and getting hit off-center. (Bad Amy, I have no > reference--but go forth and seek it in the Holy Lexicon if you want > the specifics). > > There is, of course, that exasperating, invisible-scarred Harry in the > deluxe edition of PS/SS; JKR drawings are canon, no? (Though they can > be wrong, like her assertion that there are 1000 students at Hogwarts > .) Perhaps we've all been missing it because we've been looking > in the middle of his forehead where she puts a bit of bangs, and it's > actually over his right eye? IIRC there isn't anything in the canon that specifically describes the location and orientation of the scar. All it says is that the scar is thin and lightening bolt shaped on his forehead. It doesn't say if the scar is vertically oriented or horizontally oriented or tips to the right or left. Nor does it say where on the forehead it is, other than that Harry's hair covers it at times. Personally, I like to picture the scar as vertically oriented and in the middle of his forehead with the upper most part beginning just at the hairline and the lowest point of the lightening bolt shape ending just between his eyebrows. (The anatomical name for the area between your eyebrows is the glabella.) I think Voldemort was aiming for Harry right between the eyes (or maybe at Harry's eyes). By virtue of being an infant at the time, Harry's head (like all infants) was disproportionally larger that the rest of his body and the forehead is generally more prominent. But being an infant Harry's head was still smaller than an adult's and Voldemort didn't adjust for that when he took aim. From a forensic point of view, it's a shame Cedric's face wasn't described after he was killed as it would be interesting if he had a similar wound. Milz From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 16:24:05 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:24:05 -0000 Subject: AK scars (no longer trailer) Message-ID: <9hia35+4m6d@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21687 Milz wrote: >From a forensic point of view, it's a shame Cedric's face >wasn't described after he was killed as it would be interesting if he >had a similar wound. Cedric's face isn't described (not on this point, that is), but Riddle Sr.'s and his parents' are and they have no scars, or surely the police would have noted it. They appear unharmed. We don't know for sure that Voldemort killed them with Avada Kedavra, but they probably were, given the other mention of what the results of AK look like--Harry's dazed speculation on his parents' deaths in Moody's first class. Interestingly, then, a failed AK may leave a scar while a successful one makes no wound whatsoever. That makes some kind of sense to me. Amy Z -------------------------------------------- "Winky is having trouble adjusting, Harry Potter," squeaked Dobby confidentially. -HP and the Goblet of Fire -------------------------------------------- From dfrankis at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 29 16:27:15 2001 From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com (dfrankis at dial.pipex.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:27:15 -0000 Subject: Scar In-Reply-To: <9hi9ee+hfdn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hia93+6o6j@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21688 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" wrote: > From a forensic point of view, it's a shame Cedric's face wasn't described after he was killed as it would be interesting if he had a similar wound. > > Milz The Riddle family were examined with great forensic care and had no marks or other evidence of being killed (other than being dead that is). Harry's scar symbolises his survival, not just that he was attacked. David From catlady at wicca.net Fri Jun 29 16:59:59 2001 From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:59:59 -0700 Subject: House Elves - Killing Sirius - Harry's Family - Weasleys - Music - More Message-ID: <3B3CB40F.CE17E69E@wicca.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21689 Allison wrote: > I think house-elves probably get one family > (or school or business, like Hogwarts) and > that family serves it until they're released > or fired. Yes, but what if that family dies out (or that school or business goes out of business)? Btw, are the House Elves attached to the *family* or to the *house*? As long as old wizarding families keep living in their old family homes, the effect is the same, but suppose the latest heir of a British old wizarding family emigrates? Do the House Elves stay in the old house to serve the next occupants? One tentacle says, George said in CoS: "House-elves come with big old manors and castles and places like that." Another tentacle says, MoM has an Office of House Elf Relocation, Newt Scamander had a very boring job there when he was young. Alice vayabe wrote: > Which raises the question of who Winky's father was > and, for that matter, the one of how house elves > reproduce seing as there rarely seems to be more > than one elf per household. *IS* there rarely more than one elf per household? The Dobby/Malfoy and Winky/Crouch interactions look so, but someone says in GoF that Hogwarts has the most House Elves of any house in Britain. That suggests that there are quite a few houses that have a couple of elves or even a dozen elves, but not the hundred that Hogwarts has. Even if there is usually only one Elf per household, they could sneak for conjugal visits on occasional nights when the family members are all asleep or away from home, and all the housework is done. Caius Marcius Coriolanus (of whom Plutarch did not think well) wrote: > And there's also a Shakespearean parallel: in > Hamlet III,iii, the Prince is prepared to wreak > vengeance against Claudius, but hesitates when he > finds him praying (snip): > "Thus conscience doth make cowards of us all" It must be very convoluted to attribute Hamlet's staying his hand from killing Claudius to Conscience, as Hamlet's motive was not a queasiness about taking a human life, but rather was a desire to damn Claudius's soul as well as kill his body. Magda Grantwich: > I'm still a little foggy on the actual time chronology > of that day that the Potters died and who did what when. I *think* everyone is foggy on the chronology of the day from the parental Potters' death to Harry's arrival on the Dursley doorstep. I think Steve's Lexicon lists it under Mysteries. Melanie Brackney wrote: > Where are the other Potters? Maybe the Potter family had dwindled from several generations of Potters who had no children or only one child because Voldemort did the coup de grace. Stephanie added: > And what happened to those Oh-so-supportive Lily/Petunia parents? Sometimes I wonder if Petunia murdered them in a temper tantrum over their favoritism of Lily. The Ancient Magic sure sounds like Lily and Petunia were blood sisters, but I wish Petunia was Narcissa's sister who was thrown away for being a Squib and adopted by the Evanses. That would give a good reason for her resentment of magic (magic being why her birth parents rejected her) and her envy of Lily (who got to live with her own biological parents). Catherine wrote: > But I just had a thought that if Arthur Weasley > was also a 7th son, then surely we would have > heard something about the rest of his family by > now. Unless most of his family was wiped out > during the VW1, then surely there would be other > Weasley cousins at Hogwarts, In Book 1, Draco (no doubt quoting his father) said: "All the Weasleys have red hair, no money, and more children than they can afford." That phrase "all the Weasleys" wouldn't mean anything if there was only one Weasley. There would at least be one brother of Arthur who also had a large family, and I like to believe that Arthur was one from a large family himself, several of whom went on to have large families. Despite the death toll of VWI, I can't understand why there aren't at least a dozen red-haired Weasleys first and second cousins running around Hogwarts. Emma Moniz wrote: > where is music in the magical world, and, more > specifically, in a magical education? (snip) > Is music simply peripheral entertainment, like the > Weird Sisters? Music for entertainment includes chamber music and opera, which are mentioned on Dumbledore's and Flamel's Famous Wizard cards, not just pop music. I think there are an awful lot of subjects that are voluntary extracurricular activities at Hogwarts instead of being classes, and music is one of them. I'm sure that wizard folk must learn to play instruments and to sing, in order to become lead guitarists and singing sorceresses, but I have this curiosity about how common are instruments magicked to more or less play themselves? Like Muggles can buy a toy guitar that contains an electronic chip that plays recorded music while the player (non-sexual double entendre) just randomly touches strings that are just painted on. ***D~M~L*** wrote: > Why Steven Spielberg? He's a great director! He'd > probably do a better job on this film than Christopher Comlumbus I have heard that Spielberg cannot stand to make a movie without changing it all around in order to make it more personally 'his'. Barbara Purdom wrote: > It would also be interesting to know what houses some > of the other teachers were in as well. (snip) And what > about Madam Pomfrey and Filch? I suspect Filch, as Squib, never was a student at Hogwarts: remember Neville saying that his family was afraid that he wasn't magic enough to go to Hogwarts? But then how did Dumbledore run across poor Squib Argus and his need for a job? -- /\ /\ ___ ___ + + Mews and views ( @ \/ @ ) >> = << from Rita Prince Winston \ @ @ / \ () / ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ \ / `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) \/ (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( From A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk Fri Jun 29 17:05:35 2001 From: A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk (A.E.B.Bevan at open.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:05:35 -0000 Subject: Biblical Magic In-Reply-To: <9cvb9l+ohel@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hicgv+fje0@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21690 On attitudes of Church people to HP... The new Bishop of London (Richard Chartres) gave an interview (published in 'the Guardian' 23 Decembere 2000) in which its reported he said: >>> And, of course, he has read Harry Potter. Some Christians have raised objections to its portrayal of magic. Does he have any theological problems with it? "Oh, come off it," he guffaws. "Children's stories have always been full of magic and marvels and here is an attractive group of three children having adventures in a fantasy environment which involves giving the evil lord a bloody nose. That seems to me rather good news. I've never had any difficulty in reading fairy stories to my children and I'd happily supply a chaplain to Hogwarts for next term." <<< There are lots of reasons I am wary of this Bishop (off -topic threads here! ) but its good to see some sensible comment from a senior christian on HP and religion. Edis From sjk36 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 17:13:43 2001 From: sjk36 at hotmail.com (S. G.) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:13:43 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Boggarts, Harry, Dementors.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21691 Scott wrote: >Boggarts- > >I think maybe someone already reponded, but one of the questions for >the last chapter summeries was about whether Harry's boggart was >still a dementor at the end of PoA? I'd assume yes since it was still >a dementor and the third task in GoF. The lingering question is why. >Why would the Dementor still be Harry's fear when he has the power of >the patronus over it? We have to assume the Boggart can't change of >over time, or to assume it can for that matter. So why in GoF is >Harry still most afraid of the Dementor? Because even the patronus >doesn't calm his fears? Because it was a fast moving section and JKR >didn't feel like being very origninal or distracting to the plot at >that point? Hmmm... I assumed that this was because, as Lupin? (I think) put it, Harry's greatest fear was fear--which is represented by the Dementor, not the Dementor itself. Sarah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From absinthe at mad.scientist.com Fri Jun 29 17:23:11 2001 From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:23:11 -0000 Subject: AK scars (no longer trailer) In-Reply-To: <9hia35+4m6d@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hidhv+u6fh@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21692 D'OH! I forgot about the Riddles. Good point about the wound indicating survival. The forehead scar somewhat reminds me of "David and Goliath", though reversed. David (little guy) throws a stone that hits Goliath (big guy) between the eyes and kills him. Voldemort (big dark wizard) uses the AK to kill Harry. Harry leaves with a forehead scar; Voldemort is almost killed. Milz From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 17:45:22 2001 From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:45:22 -0000 Subject: Trailer: Scar In-Reply-To: <0c9801c100b5$0ae75d60$0938acce@rebeccab> Message-ID: <9hieri+9gr7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21693 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote: > May I meekly put my hand up and confess that I not only have no problem at > all with Harry's scar not being in the centre of his forehead, but that I > actually prefer it where it is in the trailer? ___________________ What??? You too?!?! I thought that *I* was the only one who actually preferred it off-center! You've got more guts than I do speaking up first! 10 points for [Insert your house here]. ;o) - Jamie From neilward at dircon.co.uk Fri Jun 29 17:52:07 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:52:07 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Use prefixes on movie-related posts Message-ID: <9hif87+upl1@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21694 A reminder to all: Please remember to use the prefix 'MOVIE:' in your subject header if you are discussing the Harry Potter movie. Alternatively, please be clear that you are commenting on the movie trailer. In general, please make the topic of each post clear in the subject header. Some members don't have the time to read every single message posted to the list, so a clear indication of subject is very helpful. Thanks Neil ___________ Flying Ford Anglia Moderators From muggle-reader at angelfire.com Fri Jun 29 17:53:03 2001 From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (Demelza) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:53:03 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Where are Fred and George? Message-ID: <9hif9v+jk8f@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21695 Does anyone know who will be playing Fred and George in the movie? I've looked at the cast list on imdb.com and saw no sign of the Weasley Twins anywhere. Surely they couldn't have edited those characters out. Demelza From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 17:56:17 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:56:17 -0000 Subject: Trailer, si! Tapes, no!; End of an Era; Final Report: Dale v. Fry Message-ID: <9hifg1+4okb@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21696 I had thought that when I had finally heard all four books by both readers, I would do some enormous recapitulation of each character and compare each one in light of hearing all the extant recordings. Sadly, I no longer think it as important as I previously believed. For better or worse, will he, nill he, the voices associated with the HP characters will be those portrayed in the movie. The combination of the visual, the vocal, the special effects and the score will drive these impressions inexorably into our minds, even if the movies are not completely faithful to the books. So, I just have some housekeeping chores left to do. In GoF, we are quickly introduced to a number of new voices, and I regret to say that Fry disappoints with his handling of each of them. If any characters were designated to speak in dialect, they would be Mad-Eye Moody, Fleur, Mme. Maxime, and Karkaroff. For JKR has provided textual evidence in their dialogues, not merely painting the characters as French, Scots, etc. Fry has attempted to do them both as different voices, rather than simply reading their speech, and to have them speak in dialect. He therefore is obligated to keep the voices distinct and to be consistent. Say what you will about Dale's overbroad portrayal of his voices, he is consistent. Mad-Eye Moody must have a Scots burr. As with too many of his characters, Fry has him speak with the same proper educated English intonation, albeit in a deeper register. He also does a nice thing when he uses an echo chamber for Moody's speaking the commands under the Imperius curse, but as I have said previously, he overuses this effect so it loses its effect somewhat. Mme. Maxime should speak in a deep register. Dale does this, but her voice is rather muddy, in my opinion. Fry should have scored easily here, but he did not, because Olympe kept going higher and lower with every bit of dialogue. Good French accent, though, as was Fleur's. Fry's Karkaroff is a dismal failure. The man is Slavic, and Fry introduces him with a Slavic accent, but immediately changes to a bloody awful Low German or Austrian accent. He had Karakaroff sounding like Walt Disney's Ludwig van Drake! I like Fry's Rita Skeeter. I much prefer Dale's Winky. To wrap up, I would have preferred that Fry did all the narrating, Snape, Hermione Ron and Harry. I also prefer Fry's pronunciation of the various spells, of animagus, of Durmstrang, and of Beauxbatons. All the other voices were done better by Dale, to varying degrees. IMHO Haggridd "Lights, Camera, Action!" From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 18:12:17 2001 From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:12:17 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Horribly dissapointed Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21697 >From: "Meaker Domus Ludus" > > >I really hope no one here will be horribly disappointed (and I don't doubt >everyone will ) when Hollywood (a collective Hollywood, but the WB is >among the worst) manages to take this movie and screw it up so bad it is >hardly recognizable. > >Books do not make good movies. Period. I give you The two attempts at the >Lord of the Rings as glaring examples of what can happen when Horrorwood >decides to put a book on film. Examples in HP movie are things like: > >Hagrid is twice the height of a normal man. The actor is not. Lots of >visual stunts will be missed. > >Ghosts. Theoretically they should be computer animated, unless they can >find a way for people to stand in the actor portraying him when they get to >CoS. > >The broomstick. Came in a box. Period. Cope. Fix it. It was a big deal >in the book. > >The Human Mind . I like the actor they have for Snape, but he's just >too >full in the face and not quite tall enough. That's the Snape in my mind. >Their Ron is not the same (too short, IMO they should have gone for an >older, taller but younger looking actor) the Hagrid (also too short) and >Dumbledore looks like a thousand Merlins before him. And their >Hermione!!!!!!! GODS grant me patience!! > >I take my hat off, however, to Rowling who gave the thumbs down to >Speilberg >who would have made a movie worthy of throwing rotten eggs at, I have NO >doubt. He owuld have moved the story to HIS audience -- iow, Americans. >And it is NOT an american movie. The more aimed towards Americans it is, >the less I like it (and *I* am American). > >They also do a pretty good job pronouncing their Latin (I will wait and see >how they pronounce Severus before I'm satisfied) > >Well, I took my turn, I'm happy. > In my opion you are wrong when you say that books do not make good movies....Jaws, Murder on the Orient Express,To Kill a Mockingbird and the Colour Purple, which was done by Steven Spielburg made excellent movies. The problem with making books into movies is that you are never going to be able to satisify everyone who has ever read the book. Since reading books involves our imaginations everyone interpretes the characters differently. Also you are never going to be able to make something exactly like the book because it is impossible, the human imagination can go anywhere but Hollywood can't. Also I am not going to base a feature length movie on the 8 minutes of previews that I have seen so far. Heidi. H. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 18:16:04 2001 From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:16:04 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] I hate to talk about the trailer, but... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 21698 >From: meboriqua at aol.com > > > >I also like the music, even though I'm sure others have heartily >complained about it. John Williams can do no wrong in my book. >Anyone who can make the music to "Schindler's List" and bring me to >tears every time I hear it is a genius. > I wholeheartly agree John Williams is god. I mean Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Jaws, Jurassic Park and Schindler's List. I have enjoyed the music in the previews very much. Heidi . H. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From mariannayus at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 18:33:54 2001 From: mariannayus at yahoo.com (Marianna Lvovsky) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ancient/Old Magic In-Reply-To: <9hgq81+457t@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010629183354.35721.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21699 --- Caius Marcius wrote: of course, Tom > Riddle forgot in > CoS that Phoenix tears have a healing property - > maybe Voldy has a > memory as crummy as Neville Longbottom. > LOL! Thanks for my laugh of the day...... Btw, I love the screen name (Coriolanus I presume). Marsha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 18:42:24 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:42:24 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Where are Fred and George? In-Reply-To: <9hif9v+jk8f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hii6g+807s@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21700 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Demelza" wrote: > Does anyone know who will be playing Fred and George in the movie? > I've looked at the cast list on imdb.com and saw no sign of the > Weasley Twins anywhere. Surely they couldn't have edited those > characters out. Have no fear, the twins ARE here. According to hpgalleries.com, they're played by James and Oliver Phelps, and I think you can see them in the shot where Harry gets his Nimbus--a good still of this is also available on hpgalleries.com (as Gryffindor Breakfast). Amy Z From beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 18:45:58 2001 From: beyondthelamppost at yahoo.com (Jamie) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:45:58 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Where are Fred and George? In-Reply-To: <9hif9v+jk8f@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hiid6+dg7k@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21701 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Demelza" wrote: > Does anyone know who will be playing Fred and George in the movie? > I've looked at the cast list on imdb.com and saw no sign of the > Weasley Twins anywhere. Surely they couldn't have edited those > characters out. > > Demelza Hello. Gred and Feorge are being played by James & Oliver Phelps - though I've not yet seen a photo of either of them. However you can see the backs of their heads at this link - http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery44.htm From aiz24 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 18:51:54 2001 From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:51:54 -0000 Subject: V's memory (was Ancient/Old Magic) In-Reply-To: <20010629183354.35721.qmail@web14407.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hiioa+45ac@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21702 Caius Marcius wrote: > of course, Tom > > Riddle forgot in > > CoS that Phoenix tears have a healing property - > > maybe Voldy has a > > memory as crummy as Neville Longbottom. Or never took Care of Magical Creatures. He probably had a copy of Fantastic Beasts (seems to be required reading for DADA nowadays), but I can just see him skipping over all the boring creatures like Phoenixes and Unicorns and going right to the deadly ones, not for Hagrid's charming reasons, but in order to amuse himself imagining tortures like siccing a Lethifold on a Muggle. Amy Z ------------------------------------- "We don't send people to Azkaban just for blowing up their aunts!" -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban ------------------------------------- From chl0525 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 19:24:20 2001 From: chl0525 at hotmail.com (chl0525 at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:24:20 -0000 Subject: Hermione/Draco question In-Reply-To: <20010629013519.82246.qmail@web10908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hikl4+9bum@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21703 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Melanie Brackney wrote: > > Hello, > > I was reading GOF yesterday, I was at the part when the Death Eaters were wearing hoods and destroying Muggles for entertainment. Malfoy makes a statement that is similar to "You better go hide, you wouldn't want her to get into trouble" referring to Hermione. Now as bratty as this sounds...if he really wanted to see Hermione hurt (as one would suspect, considering he's never really showed any respect towards her before) why would he even suggest that she could possibly in danger by staying out in the open. It seems to me that in an odd, maybe even snape like way, he was trying to help Hermione. Does anyone else see this? Or am i out of my mind? > > Melanie Some one has probably already addressed this (I am terribly behind) but here's my 2 knuts on Little Mister Malfory: I think that even though Draco is still a total butt-head, maybe he is seeing things (behavior, comments, etc.) in his father that he doesn't like. I picked up on that bit about the back-handed warning to Hermione too. This makes me think that maybe he is torn between wanting to be like dear old dad/seeking approval from him and the thought that somewhere deep down inside Draco REALY knows better. As Draco stands before us all today is is an evil mean spitited little twit. BUT, (and please do not think that I am a Draco fan as that is not the case) I can't help but feel that since he is still very much a child, he has the oppertunity to change. People do change and I hope for Draco's sake that by the end of this marvolus series Draco has changed for the better. Michelle (swiftly returns to lurking...) From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 19:35:10 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer problems In-Reply-To: <001701c100b5$cc4159c0$a6421e3f@satellite> Message-ID: <20010629193510.22200.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21704 --- ender_w wrote: > It took me one try, but i had to wait nearly an hour > while it downloaded. > I WISH it had only taken me an hour it took over 2 hours for me to download it! But I still say it was worth it. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From JenniferABacker at cs.com Fri Jun 29 19:50:43 2001 From: JenniferABacker at cs.com (JenniferABacker at cs.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:50:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: Where are Fred and George? Message-ID: <88.8967e97.286e3613@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21705 Ok first I want to say that it may jest be my *lovely* computer playing tricks on me that make me see this way. Anyway, in the first trailer, at the very end where they're throwing up hats, is that a red headed kid? Another Weasly boy perhaps? Just thought I ask. If my computer is playing tricks on me....nevermind ;-) j*Black From meakerfamily at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 21:07:43 2001 From: meakerfamily at earthlink.net (Meaker Domus Ludus) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:07:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Horribly dissapointed References: Message-ID: <000501c100df$8ba2e4e0$c5090e3f@ELNmeakerfam> No: HPFGUIDX 21706 Crystallina Auctia's Library http://mylibrary.keeboo.com/public/crys/ Severus Snape's True Love http://home.earthlink.net/~crysmeaker/sstl/ ----- Original Message ----- > > In my opion you are wrong when you say that books do not make good > movies....Jaws, Murder on the Orient Express,To Kill a Mockingbird and the > Colour Purple, which was done by Steven Spielburg made excellent movies. The Color Purple was an American Movie, made for americans by americans. Harry Potter is Britisha nd should be treated as such. And for every Color Purple there is a Lord of the rings. Maybe two . Also I am not going to base a feature length movie on the > 8 minutes of previews that I have seen so far. > Heidi. H. > _________________________________________________________________________ The thing with trailers is they show you the best of the movie ......... and sometimes you see the best of the movie in 8 minutes . Pax, Crys From lilith_snape at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 21:36:28 2001 From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 21:36:28 -0000 Subject: Horribly dissapointed In-Reply-To: <002d01c100b1$65740c00$60090e3f@ELNmeakerfam> Message-ID: <9hiscs+111oo@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21707 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meaker Domus Ludus" wrote: > > I really hope no one here will be horribly disappointed (and I don't doubt > everyone will ) when Hollywood (a collective Hollywood, but the WB is > among the worst) manages to take this movie and screw it up so bad it is > hardly recognizable. I expect the worst, so don't worry. > Books do not make good movies. Period. It's not a imperishable truth though. Books *can* be darn good films. As far as I've seen and heard about the Lord of the Rings, people are considering it being rather good, too. But you're right that a certain type of books are better of as books. > Hagrid is twice the height of a normal man. The actor is not. Lots of > visual stunts will be missed. But is Hagrid's height ?really THAT important for the story? (she says and purse her mouth muttering "Hagrid, who gives a toss about Hagrid!") > Ghosts. Theoretically they should be computer animated, unless they can > find a way for people to stand in the actor portraying him when they get to > CoS. Oh, they can make believable ghosts. At least Swedes can when making films where the costs are MUCH lower, and since this film is SO expensive I'm sure we'll get to see special effects that makes us drowl, no matter of the film's quality otherwise. > The Human Mind . I like the actor they have for Snape, but he's just too > full in the face and not quite tall enough. That's the Snape in my mind. Alan Rickman...*deep, happy sigh* I don't care. I don't care that I had expected him to be thinner and have greasier hair- Alan is Alan and he is *WONDERFUL*. The line from the trailer is just causing sheer madness! "Our new celebrity..." I saw "Dogma" about one week before I started reading PS and I have to say that Alan Rickman as Snape was something that came up in my mind while reading. He IS Snape. Period. > And it is NOT an american movie. The more aimed towards Americans it is, > the less I like it (and *I* am American). Agree. Call me European Snobb, but I'm fed up with the American way of dealing with films, tv, you name it! I was horrified with the thougt of Columbus as well, since his other films are heading towards Sappy Hell, but let's keep out fingers crossed that he's not screwing up this. Please! > They also do a pretty good job pronouncing their Latin (I will wait and see > how they pronounce Severus before I'm satisfied) Quite a bit impressed myself. Of course *I* would chose a slightly different pronuoncation of some words...*grins* > Well, I took my turn, I'm happy. > > Pax, > Crys Lilith Morgana From meakerfamily at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 21:45:47 2001 From: meakerfamily at earthlink.net (Meaker Domus Ludus) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:45:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horribly dissapointed References: <9hiscs+111oo@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <001001c100e4$e323c400$c5090e3f@ELNmeakerfam> No: HPFGUIDX 21708 Crystallina Auctia's Library http://mylibrary.keeboo.com/public/crys/ Severus Snape's True Love http://home.earthlink.net/~crysmeaker/sstl/ ----- Original Message ----- It's not a imperishable truth though. Books *can* be darn good films. As far as I've seen and heard about the Lord of the Rings, people are considering it being rather good, too. But you're right that a certain type of books are better of as books. The Color Purple was a good example. BUT it was still a deviation from the book. As was Starship Troopers (I may never forgive Ironside for making that movie and I am among those who believe Voorheeven should be shot for what he did to that film!!), etc etc etc. > Hagrid is twice the height of a normal man. The actor is not. Lots of > visual stunts will be missed. But is Hagrid's height really THAT important for the story? (she says and purse her mouth muttering "Hagrid, who gives a toss about Hagrid!") Well, he's a major player in the books ------- but other than that ......... Oh, they can make believable ghosts. At least Swedes can when making films where the costs are MUCH lower, and since this film is SO expensive I'm sure we'll get to see special effects that makes us drowl, no matter of the film's quality otherwise. ROFL!!!! Again, I give you Starship Troopers LOL!! > The Human Mind . I like the actor they have for Snape, but he's just too > full in the face and not quite tall enough. That's the Snape in my mind. Alan Rickman...*deep, happy sigh* I don't care. I don't care that I had expected him to be thinner and have greasier hair- Alan is Alan and he is *WONDERFUL*. The line from the trailer is just causing sheer madness! "Our new celebrity..." I saw "Dogma" about one week before I started reading PS and I have to say that Alan Rickman as Snape was something that came up in my mind while reading. He IS Snape. Period. Be ya a Snape Fan??? You should se the pics of Snape in SSTL. And hopefully more to come. I'm working with a guy willing to illustrate for me . > And it is NOT an american movie. The more aimed towards Americans it is, > the less I like it (and *I* am American). Agree. Call me European Snobb, but I'm fed up with the American way of dealing with films, tv, you name it! I was horrified with the thougt of Columbus as well, since his other films are heading towards Sappy Hell, but let's keep out fingers crossed that he's not screwing up this. Please! Fingers, toes, legs, arms. I'll even braid my hair!!!! Pax, Crys From suebaru_27 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 22:34:27 2001 From: suebaru_27 at yahoo.com (suebaru_27 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:34:27 -0000 Subject: Invisibility cloak? Message-ID: <9hivpj+t01m@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21709 If you watch the scene where Hermione is performing the Petrificus Totalus curse on Neville, you'll notice Ron has a large piece of cloth over his right shoulder. Then look at the scene where a hand pushes open a door to the library, it's a red sweater w/ something over the arm. Then Harry is in the library looking through the books. On the counter is the same piece of cloth that Ron had over his shoulder. Could it be the Invisibility cloak? From dance4life1791 at msn.com Sat Jun 30 00:02:44 2001 From: dance4life1791 at msn.com (dance4life1791 at msn.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:02:44 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Where are Fred and George? In-Reply-To: <9hii6g+807s@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hj4v4+8hl2@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21710 I don't think that the twins are really in that many scenes in the trailer. The scenes depicted in the trailer are mostly scenes with Harry, Ron and Hermione. But I really would like to see them, to see what they look like. Hopefully they look like Ron, or else I'll be extremely angry. -Dana From suebaru_27 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 00:34:16 2001 From: suebaru_27 at yahoo.com (suebaru_27 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:34:16 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: Where are Fred and George? In-Reply-To: <88.8967e97.286e3613@cs.com> Message-ID: <9hj6q8+8i33@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21711 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JenniferABacker at c... wrote: > Ok first I want to say that it may jest be my *lovely* computer playing > tricks on me that make me see this way. Anyway, in the first trailer, at the > very end where they're throwing up hats, is that a red headed kid? Another > Weasly boy perhaps? Just thought I ask. If my computer is playing tricks on > me....nevermind ;-) j*Black The redhead is Chris Rankin who plays Percy Weasley. Suzy From captain_debrowe at yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 00:40:03 2001 From: captain_debrowe at yahoo.com (Danette Schardt-Cordova) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer: Invisibility cloak? In-Reply-To: <9hivpj+t01m@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010630004003.14896.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21712 --- suebaru_27 at yahoo.com wrote: > If you watch the scene where Hermione is performing > the Petrificus Totalus curse on Neville, you'll > notice Ron has a large piece of cloth > over his right shoulder. Then look at the scene > where a hand pushes open a door to the library, it's > a red sweater w/ something over the arm. > Then Harry is in the library looking through the > books. On the counter is the same piece of cloth > that Ron had over his shoulder. > Could it be the Invisibility cloak? > > > After watching the trailer carefully about 6 times and doing a frame by frame on the specific scenes I have to say : yes the fabric over Ron's shoulder and in the library IS indeed the Invisibility cloak. Danette ===== "Humans? I like humans -- some of my closest friends and finest meals have been human." Dunkelzahn "Shadowrun" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From reanna20 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 01:51:48 2001 From: reanna20 at yahoo.com (Amber) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MOVIE: trailer: Percy and Lee (short) In-Reply-To: <9hj6q8+8i33@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <20010630015148.97472.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21713 --- suebaru_27 at yahoo.com wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., JenniferABacker at c... wrote: > > Ok first I want to say that it may jest be my *lovely* computer > > playing tricks on me that make me see this way. Anyway, in the > > first trailer, at the very end where they're throwing up hats, is > > that a red headed kid? > > The redhead is Chris Rankin who plays Percy Weasley. Most emphatically agree. And I think I can also see a boy in dredlocks directly behind Harry. I assume that would be Lee Jordan? I just can't wait to hear his commentary during the Quidditch games! ~Amber ===== http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com Just another crappy homepage...updated 6/21/2001 "It never happened if there is no memory of it. Human memory is just a record. You can rewrite the record." - Serial Experiments Lain __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 30 02:15:47 2001 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 02:15:47 -0000 Subject: A Wrong Way to Grapple (filk) Message-ID: <9hjcoj+79jm@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21714 A Wrong Way to Grapple (GoF, Chap. 18) (To the tune of It's a Long Way to Tipperary) Dedicated to Steve Vander Ark THE SCENE: The Great Hall. HARRY laments how the Triwizards Tournament has turned his life upside-down HARRY Since this Triwizards mess began, I've had no peace at all I'm greeted with immense distrust as I walk down the halls My best friend will not speak to me, and views me with disdain And everywhere that I now go, I hear the same refrain CHORUS OF SLYTHERIN, HUFFLEPUFF & RAVENCLAW STUDENTS It's a wrong way to grapple, Harry It's a wrong way, we think That's why we all now buttons carry Which proclaim that "Potter Stinks" Goodbye to your reputation! Farewell to Ron's friendship! It's a wrong wrong way to grapple, Harry You ought to get a grip HARRY I got yanked out of Potions class for the Weighing of the Wands That Rita Skeeter questioned me, and was I ever conned! The quotes that she did fabricate made me sound like Gilderoy And every moment of my shame was cherished by Malfoy CHORUS It's a wrong way to grapple, Harry It's a wrong way, you know They call this the TriWizards Tourney But you think it's Quattro-Pro Harry chose to challenge Cedric, who's our one true Hogwarts Champ Is this ego trip so necessary That his style you must cramp? (Enter HERMIONE & PROF. MOODY) HERMIONE Harry is not deceiving you, I know this for a fact I saw his face when his name was called, and Harry cannot act Professor Moody has declared that some Dark Plot is certain That somewhere 'twixt Tasks One and Three, Harry might well get "curtains" MOODY It's a wrong thing to gripe at Potter It's a wrong thing, I cry Someone wants to get Harry slaughtered Someone wants to watch him die Only the most potent magic could've entered his name, I judge It's wrong thing then to gripe at Harry (to himself) Hint hint wink wink nudge nudge - CMC From kris403 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 03:50:36 2001 From: kris403 at yahoo.com (kris403 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 03:50:36 -0000 Subject: Trailer: Invisibility cloak? In-Reply-To: <20010630004003.14896.qmail@web14405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9hjiac+ob1q@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21715 If anyone hasn't seen the trailer on the big screen, YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST!!! I just came back from A.I. (which is an excellent movie) and the trailer is excellent on the big screen. The only thing bad about it was that I couldn't keep replaying it to get all the details when they were perfectly clear and smooth. Alan Rickman's line is so perfect it gave me chills. I also think that the special effects looked better. I thought on the computer they looked a lot more fake than when I saw them in the theater. I'm not sure why that is. I also feel like I need to voice my opinion... I personally will completely love the movie even if it has a few small details changed. I have no problem that Harry's delivery looks like a broomstick. Yes, I find it fun to try to find all the things that are different, but there is no way that the director can recreate every single line to be identical to the original text. I will be upset if the entire book would have been re-written, but I really don't feel that is the case here. I also love the scar. I think it's more realistic this way. Kris (going back to lurking) From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sat Jun 30 10:58:32 2001 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:58:32 +0100 Subject: WEEKLY DISCUSSION SUMMARIES: More volunteers please! Message-ID: <002701c10153$9ac80e40$fb3770c2@c5s910j> No: HPFGUIDX 21716 Hi everyone, We're coming to the end of our discussions based on PoA and will soon be moving on to CoS, so we're looking for some more able volunteers to write lead-off summaries. If you're interested in volunteering, please check the schedule linked below and send me a previate e-mail (neil.ward at dircon.co.uk or the Chasers link in the schedule file). PLEASE DO NOT send a message to the list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion%20Summaries/New Discussions.htm ***What's involved? Every week, we have a discussion based on a chapter or two from one of the books, and another on a themed essay. We started out with GoF chapters and profiles of most of the main HP characters, and decided to continue, as we had so much time on our hands. We're now moving backwards through the series, aiming to complete the chapter discussions around the time of the movie release date. The essays are now on a variety of HP themes. Volunteers write a summary in their own style and pose a few questions at the end to get the discussion moving. The summaries are scheduled to be posted on Mondays. People can volunteer to write either or both the chapter and themed summaries for a week. Please specify (if you don't say, I will assume you are offering to do all of them). NB: These discussions are, of course, an optional activity and we are all free to comment on any topic at any time, provided we follow the netiquette guidelines and rules of the list and YahooGroups. Magically, Neil ________________________________________ Flying Ford Anglia Mechanimagus Moderator "The cat's ginger fur was thick and fluffy, but it was definitely a bit bow-legged and its face looked grumpy and oddly squashed, as though it had run headlong into a brick wall" ["The Leaky Cauldron", PoA] Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything to do with this club: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 13:47:05 2001 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 13:47:05 -0000 Subject: Trailer: Found it and Dumbledore's Floor Message-ID: <9hkl8p+9fm5@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21717 Thanks to whoever posted comingsoon.com as a source for QuickTime downloads; it took 90 minutes but it worked. Looks like a nice movie. I thought everyone looked fine and the owl swooping over the table with the broom was great. And Richard Harris does say "third floor" albeit not very clearly. From lilith_snape at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 15:09:52 2001 From: lilith_snape at hotmail.com (*Lilith Morgana*) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:09:52 -0000 Subject: Horribly dissapointed In-Reply-To: <001001c100e4$e323c400$c5090e3f@ELNmeakerfam> Message-ID: <9hkq40+u1bn@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21718 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meaker Domus Ludus" wrote: > > Crystallina Auctia's Library > http://mylibrary.keeboo.com/public/crys/ > Severus Snape's True Love > http://home.earthlink.net/~crysmeaker/sstl/ > ----- Original Message ----- > It's not a imperishable truth though. Books *can* be darn good films. > As far as I've seen and heard about the Lord of the Rings, people are > considering it being rather good, too. But you're right that a > certain type of books are better of as books. > > > The Color Purple was a good example. BUT it was still a deviation from the > book. As was Starship Troopers (I may never forgive Ironside for making > that movie and I am among those who believe Voorheeven should be shot for > what he did to that film!!), etc etc etc. I'm the girl who didn't even see Starship Troopers in the first place... > > > > Hagrid is twice the height of a normal man. The actor is not. > Lots of > > visual stunts will be missed. > > But is Hagrid's height ?really THAT important for the story? > (she says and purse her mouth muttering "Hagrid, who gives a toss > about Hagrid!") > > > Well, he's a major player in the books ------- but other than that ......... But his height is never a topic of great importance, is it? Can be that I just ignored this man... > > > Oh, they can make believable ghosts. At least Swedes can when making > films where the costs are MUCH lower, and since this film is SO > expensive I'm sure we'll get to see special effects that makes us > drowl, no matter of the film's quality otherwise. > > > > ROFL!!!! Again, I give you Starship Troopers LOL!! > LOL! How so? > > The Human Mind . I like the actor they have for Snape, but he's > just too > > full in the face and not quite tall enough. That's the Snape in my > mind. > > Alan Rickman...*deep, happy sigh* I don't care. I don't care that I > had expected him to be thinner and have greasier hair- Alan is Alan > and he is *WONDERFUL*. The line from the trailer is just causing > sheer madness! "Our new celebrity..." I saw "Dogma" about one week > before I started reading PS and I have to say that Alan Rickman as > Snape was something that came up in my mind while reading. He IS > Snape. Period. > > > > > Be ya a Snape Fan??? You should se the pics of Snape in SSTL. And > hopefully more to come. I'm working with a guy willing to illustrate for me > . > :::nods excitedly::: Who's not a Snape fan? Though, he is one tricky guy to portrait in this film, since he's supposed to be a bad guy and a good guy wrapped in the same - dead sexy- box! I do hope that Rickman is informed about every detail in Snape's past and that he strongly avoid reading any post about him in the forums talking about what the adult Snape fans expects from him...LOL And what is SSTL? If it involves Snape, I'm in for it! > > And it is NOT an american movie. The more aimed towards Americans > it is, > > the less I like it (and *I* am American). > > Agree. Call me European Snobb, but I'm fed up with the American way > of dealing with films, tv, you name it! > I was horrified with the thougt of Columbus as well, since his other > films are heading towards Sappy Hell, but let's keep out fingers > crossed that he's not screwing up this. Please! > > > > Fingers, toes, legs, arms. I'll even braid my hair!!!! I'll do the same! Except that my hair is too short to do anything else than stand right up. > Pax, > Crys Lilith who tried to find a Grown Up excuse for satisfying the urge of buying four REALLY fine paper organisers with Snape on them, earlier today. From meakerfamily at earthlink.net Sat Jun 30 15:18:34 2001 From: meakerfamily at earthlink.net (Meaker Domus Ludus) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 10:18:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horribly dissapointed References: <9hkq40+u1bn@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000901c10177$f87d9400$6dff0a3f@ELNmeakerfam> No: HPFGUIDX 21719 Crystallina Auctia's Library http://mylibrary.keeboo.com/public/crys/ Severus Snape's True Love http://home.earthlink.net/~crysmeaker/sstl/ ----- Original Message ----- From: *Lilith Morgana* To: Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 10:09 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horribly dissapointed --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Meaker Domus Ludus" wrote: And what is SSTL? If it involves Snape, I'm in for it! It's my little fic. 13 chapters complete with illustrations (OK, only two, but we're working on it ) http://home.earthlink.net/~crysmeaker/sstl/ Lilith who tried to find a Grown Up excuse for satisfying the urge of buying four REALLY fine paper organisers with Snape on them, earlier today. Hmmmmm, how bout you buy it for my kid and just decide not to give it to her . Pax, Crys From joym999 at aol.com Sat Jun 30 15:21:52 2001 From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:21:52 -0000 Subject: HP4GU Contest #8 -- Trailer Trash (ing) Message-ID: <9hkqqg+f7h7@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21720 This weeks contest is sponsored by L.O.O.N. (The League of Obsessed Nitpickers). The contest is to find the smallest, nitpickiest detail in either of the 2 HP movie trailers and criticise it. For example, it bothers me that the pictures in the portraits on the walls are not moving around and talking to one another. And Harrys hair is not black. And I want the scar in the middle, the way Mary Grandpre drew it. And Ron should be taller. And Hermiones teeth....well, you get the point. Anyway, these are all pretty reasonable criticisms. Can you find any more pickier, much more trivial complaints? Come on, folks, this is everyones opportunity to whine to their hearts content. The contest deadline is Tuesday, July 10, so you have about 10 days to complain. Remember, do NOT post your contest entries to the list. Email them to me at HP4GUCon at aol.com, or at the above address. (You will receive an acknowledgement when I get your entry; send it again if you dont.) And, contest #7 is still open. See message 21321 for details. --Joywitch From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 30 15:17:58 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 10:17:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer: Scar References: <9hi7sg+fnc1@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <3B3DEDA6.9733F38E@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21721 Amy Z wrote: > Can we clear this up right now? I will personally send $20 to the > first person who can point to evidence in the books (non-JKR > illustrations don't count) that the scar is dead center. I see it > that way, along with 99% of the fandom, but it isn't canon. JKR even > said something in an interview about imagining baby H turning his head > when the big scary man came after him (or maybe in response to the > flash of light?) and getting hit off-center. (Bad Amy, I have no > reference--but go forth and seek it in the Holy Lexicon if you want > the specifics). Bother not! 'Twas I that posted that last tidbit. When Fred Bode, who did the artwork that's out there on the puzzles and such, did that signing at the WB store in San Antonio, I went, and I asked him about the alignment of the scar (horizontal vs. vertical). He then relayed that he'd had a conversation with JKR about it, and that she had said that in her mind's eye, she saw baby Harry flinching away as the spell was cast, so the scar is, in fact, diagonal. So it was secondhand but still pretty direct; I don't know if Steve deemed it canon or not. However, alas, nowhere did we discuss on- or off-center. --Amanda P.S. - If any of you kindred anal spirits really do want to check the archives, I think it the thread was under HP Artist in San Antonio or something to that effect. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 30 15:55:29 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 10:55:29 -0500 Subject: MOVIE: Re: [HPforGrownups] Horribly dissapointed References: <000501c100df$8ba2e4e0$c5090e3f@ELNmeakerfam> Message-ID: <3B3DF670.E62B9954@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21722 Crys, sounds like you're going into this ready to be disappointed. I bet you succeed in your quest. Me, I'm approaching this as an evening out with a friend, who's going to tell me their version of a story I already know by heart. I expect some stuff'll be different, and they won't say some things that I love just the way my other friend always does, but they may have new turns of phrase or ways of seeing things that I love just as well. I already know that these two friends know each other, that the person I'm going to see has heard this story from my older friend, and so I'm not expecting any major things to be *wrong,* just different. The story will be the same, in the main. My main worry was always that the special effects would drown anything else, story included. No more; the cast is more than able to carry the movie, relegating the effects back to where they belong, in a "supporting" role. I never thought they'd be able to make a movie with this much "magic," where it was nonetheless almost not noticed (i.e., in that it is simply appropriate and fits, the way a superb soundtrack is "not heard"). So I, myself, fully expect changes, but I also expect to have more positives than negatives about the movie version. --Amanda, philosophical this morning, oh, my Meaker Domus Ludus wrote: > The Color Purple was an American Movie, made for americans by > americans. > Harry Potter is Britisha nd should be treated as such. > > And for every Color Purple there is a Lord of the rings. Maybe two > . > > > > Also I am not going to base a feature length movie on the > > 8 minutes of previews that I have seen so far. > > Heidi. H. > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > > The thing with trailers is they show you the best of the movie > ......... and > sometimes you see the best of the movie in 8 minutes . > > Pax, > Crys [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 30 15:55:36 2001 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 10:55:36 -0500 Subject: MOVIE: one more word (okay, lots) on Horribly dissapointed References: <9hiscs+111oo@eGroups.com> <001001c100e4$e323c400$c5090e3f@ELNmeakerfam> Message-ID: <3B3DF678.CD4A5B57@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 21723 I forgot this, sorry. I also have to point out something that my husband and I, and other friends, have discussed over the years when favorite books became non-favorite movies (or sometimes favorites, quien sabe?). The visual medium of movies is different from the text medium of literature. Even if a moviemaker did a movie of some work, absolutely faithful to every single jot and tittle of text, some things will be altered; it's inevitable. Bear with me, here. A scene taking place in a room, in a book, need only describe the setting sufficient to set the mood, or maybe refers to only one item or glance that is significant. Translating this to a visual, even with slavish adherence, is going to provoke discussion, for now we must build and furnish a room. Where are the windows? Does it say anywhere? If there are no windows, can the mood we want still occur, visually? What furniture is in there? Where is it placed? That lamp she mentions, what's it sitting on? What are the characters wearing? What time of day is it? What direction do the windows face, will they have full or indirect sun? Etc., ad nauseam. If the author is available to ask, they're going to be able to get more accurate details, because she can provide more information as to how she "saw" the characters standing, who was facing which way, what was on the bookshelves, if the room was well-lit, etc. But even so.... The point here is that the answer to every single one of these questions will be argued with by at least one, maybe more, dedicated reader of the work. When the domino effect starts, and the answer to others of these questions depends on an earlier answer (which readers believe was Wrong), it gets worse. But movies build their atmosphere and direct their emphasis in a totally different format than the written word; they have to give you a whole world and then winnow it, where text gives you only what you need and builds on it. An example here from the trailer is the clearly NON-dungeon where Snape says that purring line to Harry. We ALL know the potions classroom is in the dungeons. No windows. Period. So in this instance, the movie is inarguably WRONG. But. But. But. Watch the trailer and look at the angle from which they introduce Snape. You're looking up at him, and those windows (lovely, by the way, if inaccurate) backlight him so that he is a towering, indistinct, threatening figure. Whose line parallels this in its ambiguity--soft, calm, measured, but clearly powerfully threatening. So I totally applaud this change; it took the "feel" that the books had, and translated it into a faithful visual--faithful to the "feel," not to the letter of the book. Granted, it's iffy extrapolating a whole movie from a trailer or two. But again, although details are altered, the whole "feel" or atmosphere that comes across from the trailers is correct, perfect, much more than I expected them to achieve. I would rather have a movie that is, well, magical in its scope and cinematic sweep, and not entirely faithful to all the little details, than a movie which renders each and every detail perfectly, but which falls flat. --Amanda, really have to stop pontificating now, I have to go buy shoes for my boys....sigh From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 30 16:53:21 2001 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 16:53:21 -0000 Subject: Horribly dissapointed In-Reply-To: <002d01c100b1$65740c00$60090e3f@ELNmeakerfam> Message-ID: <9hl061+33ac@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21724 "Meaker Domus Ludus" wrote: >Books do not make good movies. Period. The Godfather movie was far better than the book. Period >Hagrid is twice the height of a normal man. The actor is not. Yes, shame on those movie people for not hiring one of the many 12 foot actors looking for a job. >The broomstick. Came in a box. Period. Cope. Fix it. Right! The box was the best part of the book, when I think of Harry Potter the first thing I think of is that box, without that box the movie can't possibly be any good. In fact, I think they should make an entire movie just about that wonderful cardboard box. >I like the actor they have for Snape, but he's just too full in the >face and >not quite tall enough. I would humbly submit that how they look is not the only consideration when picking actors, another small consideration just might be how well they act. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Jun 30 17:25:00 2001 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:25:00 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: one more word (okay, lots) on Horribly dissapointed In-Reply-To: <3B3DF678.CD4A5B57@texas.net> Message-ID: <9hl21c+8rmg@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21725 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski wrote: > I forgot this, sorry. I also have to point out something that my husband > and I, and other friends, have discussed over the years when favorite > books became non-favorite movies (or sometimes favorites, quien sabe?). > The visual medium of movies is different from the text medium of > literature. Even if a moviemaker did a movie of some work, absolutely > faithful to every single jot and tittle of text, some things will be > altered; it's inevitable. > > Bear with me, here. A scene taking place in a room, in a book, need only > describe the setting sufficient to set the mood, or maybe refers to only > one item or glance that is significant. Translating this to a visual, > even with slavish adherence, is going to provoke discussion, for now we > must build and furnish a room. Where are the windows? Does it say > anywhere? If there are no windows, can the mood we want still occur, > visually? What furniture is in there? Where is it placed? That lamp she > mentions, what's it sitting on? What are the characters wearing? What > time of day is it? What direction do the windows face, will they have > full or indirect sun? Etc., ad nauseam. If the author is available to > ask, they're going to be able to get more accurate details, because she > can provide more information as to how she "saw" the characters > standing, who was facing which way, what was on the bookshelves, if the > room was well-lit, etc. But even so.... > > The point here is that the answer to every single one of these questions > will be argued with by at least one, maybe more, dedicated reader of the > work. When the domino effect starts, and the answer to others of these > questions depends on an earlier answer (which readers believe was > Wrong), it gets worse. But movies build their atmosphere and direct > their emphasis in a totally different format than the written word; they > have to give you a whole world and then winnow it, where text gives you > only what you need and builds on it. > > An example here from the trailer is the clearly NON-dungeon where Snape > says that purring line to Harry. We ALL know the potions classroom is in > the dungeons. No windows. Period. So in this instance, the movie is > inarguably WRONG. But. But. But. Watch the trailer and look at the angle > from which they introduce Snape. You're looking up at him, and those > windows (lovely, by the way, if inaccurate) backlight him so that he is > a towering, indistinct, threatening figure. Whose line parallels this in > its ambiguity--soft, calm, measured, but clearly powerfully threatening. > So I totally applaud this change; it took the "feel" that the books had, > and translated it into a faithful visual--faithful to the "feel," not to > the letter of the book. > > Granted, it's iffy extrapolating a whole movie from a trailer or two. > But again, although details are altered, the whole "feel" or atmosphere > that comes across from the trailers is correct, perfect, much more than > I expected them to achieve. I would rather have a movie that is, well, > magical in its scope and cinematic sweep, and not entirely faithful to > all the little details, than a movie which renders each and every detail > perfectly, but which falls flat. > > --Amanda, really have to stop pontificating now, I have to go buy shoes > for my boys....sigh The most faithful movie to its book of origin that I have seen was "Rosemary's Baby." Ira Levin's novel was so tightly plotted that the director (Sidney Lumet, I believe) felt he could not alter it. Even so, there are those choices Amanda has so eloquently delineated that must be made in order to translate a scene from one's mind's eye to a scene that will be viewed bu other real eyes. They are two different media. I find that I enjoy reading far more books than I have enjoyed seeing movies, but those movies were in no way inferior to the books, be they original screenplays or adaptations. Haggridd (who was most like Albus Dumbledore according to the test on the link in OT, with Hagrid a close second--Yay!) From meakerfamily at earthlink.net Sat Jun 30 17:56:52 2001 From: meakerfamily at earthlink.net (Meaker Domus Ludus) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 12:56:52 -0500 Subject: MOVIE: Re: [HPforGrownups] Horribly dissapointed References: <000501c100df$8ba2e4e0$c5090e3f@ELNmeakerfam> <3B3DF670.E62B9954@texas.net> Message-ID: <000701c1018e$0c789f20$71ff0a3f@ELNmeakerfam> No: HPFGUIDX 21726 Crystallina Auctia's Library http://mylibrary.keeboo.com/public/crys/ Severus Snape's True Love http://home.earthlink.net/~crysmeaker/sstl/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Amanda Lewanski To: Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: MOVIE: Re: [HPforGrownups] Horribly dissapointed > Crys, sounds like you're going into this ready to be disappointed. I bet > you succeed in your quest. Actually you might lose some money . I LOVED Starship Troopers BECAUSE of my attitude. I know Hollywood and I know it won't be JUST like the book. Actually what I see so far looks pretty good. Pax, Crys From meakerfamily at earthlink.net Sat Jun 30 17:57:42 2001 From: meakerfamily at earthlink.net (Meaker Domus Ludus) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 12:57:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horribly dissapointed References: <9hl061+33ac@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <000c01c1018e$2a2a8ce0$71ff0a3f@ELNmeakerfam> No: HPFGUIDX 21727 Crystallina Auctia's Library http://mylibrary.keeboo.com/public/crys/ Severus Snape's True Love http://home.earthlink.net/~crysmeaker/sstl/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 11:53 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Horribly dissapointed > "Meaker Domus Ludus" wrote: > > >Books do not make good movies. Period. > > The Godfather movie was far better than the book. Period That's 2. > > >Hagrid is twice the height of a normal man. The actor is not. > > Yes, shame on those movie people for not hiring one of the many 12 > foot actors looking for a job. > But plenty of computers. > > I would humbly submit that how they look is not the only > consideration when picking actors, another small consideration just > might be how well they act. > > > Noted. Pax, Crys From banjoken at optonline.net Sat Jun 30 20:22:29 2001 From: banjoken at optonline.net (banjoken at optonline.net) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 20:22:29 -0000 Subject: MOVIE: one more word (okay, lots) on Horribly dissapointed In-Reply-To: <3B3DF678.CD4A5B57@texas.net> Message-ID: <9hlce5+9s6c@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21728 > Granted, it's iffy extrapolating a whole movie from a trailer or two. > But again, although details are altered, the whole "feel" or atmosphere > that comes across from the trailers is correct, perfect, much more than > I expected them to achieve. I would rather have a movie that is, well, > magical in its scope and cinematic sweep, and not entirely faithful to > all the little details, than a movie which renders each and every detail > perfectly, but which falls flat. I hate to do a "me too" post, but this sums up my feelings about the movie exactly. When I watch the trailer, I really feel like I'm looking into the world JKR created. I don't really care that the scar is off to the side, or Ron is too tall, or the Nimbus isn't delivered in a box. When I look at the big picture, I'm amazed by what they've done and I can't wait to see the whole thing. It seems to me that despite a few very minor details, they're being remarkably faithful to the book, and while it's impossible to please everyone, I think the majority of HP fans are going to be very happy with the outcome. Ken From eccleston at clara.co.uk Sat Jun 30 22:14:17 2001 From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 22:14:17 -0000 Subject: Ancient/Old Magic - Why is Harry protected? In-Reply-To: <9hi0t1+d85g@eGroups.com> Message-ID: <9hlivp+fqe6@eGroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 21729 --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jamie" wrote: > > Old/Ancient magic seems to be incredibly powerful - not even Voldy > > can countermand it. ... > > - CMC > > ______________________ > > This somehow invokes memories of Lewis's Narnia and Aslan and Deep > Magic. In Lewis's world, this Deep Magic seems to be tied into the > natural order of things in the same way that gravity is part of the > natural order of things. Everytime I think about Dumbledore's > ancient magic, I try to make this comparison, though I'm wondering if > it is a stretch seeing as we are talking about two different worlds > here. > > - Jamie This is something that has really puzzled me. What is it about the Dursley's that protects Harry? The only other really deep magic that has defeated Mr.V. in the past is the subtle and profound love of a mother for her baby. So, what is it at the D's that is so powerful? I think JKR is setting something up here & I'm waiting to be surprised (yet again)! Steve Eccleston