Drumstrang location
mlmnb
mlmnb at msn.com
Fri Jun 8 01:25:14 UTC 2001
No: HPFGUIDX 20401
Thanks for pointing out the Hapsburg connection. Since these schools are a
few centuries old (at least) it stands to reason that Durmstrang was at one
time in the Austro-Hungarian empire.
Take a look at the maps of Europe, cartographers were never out of work
updating the boundaries that happened rather frequently in Europe. Hence, a
person named "Berger", very German sounding, could actually have been born
in Poland, died in Russia or a satellite country and never have moved
from his original home.
dane - ravenclaw
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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Re: Snape as vampire
From: Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at mindspring.com>
2. PS/SS quotes
From: Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at mindspring.com>
3. Re: Rita Skeeter Bug-Brain (was: Rita Skeeter Bug)
From: buster at dnahelix.com
4. Re: Snape as vampire
From: "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com>
5. Malfoy's Quidditch prank, was Re: Chapter 13 Summary
From: Allyse at my-deja.com
6. Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover?
From: "Gaynor Thomas" <gaynor at cheerful.com>
7. Grim, Kiss, Muggles/Wizards, Quidditch, Cho, Florence, Vampires,
Ducks, Seekers
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
8. Re: Re: FAT
From: Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at yahoo.com>
9. Re: FAT
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
10. Re: Vampire Info--rather long
From: atypke at yahoo.com
11. Re: Vampire Info--rather long
From: atypke at yahoo.com
12. Re: Snape and Hermione (was vampires)
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com
13. Re: Draco - Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com
14. correction
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
15. Spells & Charms; the nature of magic
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
16. Re: Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius
From: hamster8 at hotmail.com
17. Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover?
From: meboriqua at aol.com
18. Re: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic
From: meboriqua at aol.com
19. Re: Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix"
From: "Saitaina" <saitaina at wizzards.net>
20. Re: FAT
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com
21. Re: Snape as vampire
From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it
22. Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover?
From: "Demelza" <muggle-reader at angelfire.com>
23. short introduction & lots of questions
From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it
24. Re: Snape and Hermione (was vampires)
From: "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com>
25. Re: Draco - Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius
From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:35:45 -0700
From: Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Snape as vampire
At 08:49 PM 6/6/01 -0400, JamiDeise at aol.com wrote:
>because a werewolf is a mere beast and a vampire is the epitome of undead
>cool?
They *do* sell blood-flavored lollies for vampires in Hogsmeade...
-- Dave
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:46:09 -0700
From: Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at mindspring.com>
Subject: PS/SS quotes
Someone has asked for a couple of quotes, which as it turns
out occur very close to each other in PS/SS:
*** Hermione's remark about bravery over books and cleverness:
"Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know."
"I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of
him.
"Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important
things -- friendship and bravery and -- oh Harry -- be careful!"
*** And the other Snape = Bat simile we've had (so far):
"But I thought -- Snape --"
"Severus?" Quirrell laughed, and it wasn't his usual quivering treble,
either, but cold and sharp. "Yes, Severus does seem the type, doesn't
he? So useful to have him swooping around like an overgrown bat. Next to
him, who would suspect p-p-poor, st-stuttering P-Professor Quirrell?"
(Hmmm... Maybe he *is* a vampire... Could explain why Quirrell
fears him, which I think he does -- I don't think Q was faking
that part, at least not entirely...)
-- Dave
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 04:53:16 -0000
From: buster at dnahelix.com
Subject: Re: Rita Skeeter Bug-Brain (was: Rita Skeeter Bug)
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...>
>
> On the subject of Ms. Skeeter - how did she do all of that insider
> reporting with the brain of a bug? JKR is pretty inconsistent
about
> this, but it is often implied that an Animagi lose at least some of
> their human-level intellectual capabilities. Sirius Black fools the
> Dementors by changing into a dog: "They could tell that my feelings
> were less -- less human, less complex when I was a dog... but they
> thought, of course, that I was losing my mind like everyone else in
> there, so it didn't trouble them." Mr. Kennilworthy Whisp at the
> beginning of QTA tells us that, "[The Animagi] who finds..
> [themselves] transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but,
having
> a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go the
> moment they take flight."
>
> OTOH, McGonagall seems fully aware in her feline guise, and
> Pettigrew's squeaks and attempts to escape while in his Scabbers
> identity certainly indicate he knows exactly what the score is.
> Perhaps this has to do with the relatively larger mammalian brain.
> But if a bat-Animagi can't even be expected to remember to go from
> Point A to Point B, how much more limited is the near-microscopic
> insect brain going to be in action?
>
> - CMC
Here's a theory: Perhaps the 'intelligence level' of an Animagi in
animal form could be relative to their skill of the transformation,
so the better one is at the process the more one's intellect is
retained. ITC, McGonagall and Skeeter might be better at the
process than perhaps Sirius is.
This could be one of the reasons why it is such a difficult skill to
develop and would also make it more dangerous. If an untrained
wizard attempted to turn into an animal and then only possessed the
intellect of that creature (like a bug) then how would he or she know
how to change back???
-Beau
"Never trust anything that can think for itself,if you can't see
where it keeps its brain."
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 05:27:05 -0000
From: "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com>
Subject: Re: Snape as vampire
Yes, well, I'm a little late to the party, but here's my two cents
anyway.
Koinonia wrote:
>> When Snape took over the class, they were studying what I consider
to be *lesser* creatures. I would imagine when the class got to
werewolves and vampires they were finally getting to the *big* guys.
After all, werewolves were at the very back of the book. Was the
class moving at such a fast pace that they finally made it to
vampires? They might have studied vampires to a lesser degree
previously, however I would think it would take many lessons on how
to deal with vampires. Plus I don't believe Lupin included any
vampire stuff in that test he gave the class. It was *tit for tat*.<<
About that Vampire essay... alright, I'm pretty sure the general
theory that you Vampire-Snapefans have is that when Lupin rescues
Harry from Snape's evil clutches after the Hogsmeade incident Lupin
said his little line about the "Vampire essay" simply to get back at
Snape for the little werewolf essay stunt. That they weren't
necessarily studying it in class (at least, not in much depth) and it
was just a kind of reserved warning or something of Lupin's.
However... forget not that it couldn't have been just a simple
warning of Lupin's, as Neville makes it obviously clear that the
assigned essay was real. Page 276, PoA, American version:
"Er-- not now-- I was going to the library and do that vampire essay
for Lupin--"
"I'll come with you!" Neville said brightly. "I haven't done it
either!"
So, the essay *was* really assigned. Which brings me to my next
conclusion: If Hermione, who puts an insane amount effort into her
homework, can figure out the truth about Lupin's lycanthropy from
doing Snape's essay, then wouldn't she also be able to understand the
truth about Snape's "Vampirism" from Lupin's essay?
Now, I know you guys will contadict me with the usual excuses ("It's
a potion he uses to conceal his symptoms!" and so on...) BUT, Lupin
has a potion too, and it does not conceal all of his symptoms. I have
my doubts that there is a cure-all potion for the symptoms of
Vampirism (that greasy hair is not a side-effect, sorry) and
therefore, it would seem to me that Hermione would be able to
discover that Snape is not what he seems.
Now, of course, Hermione could be protecting Snape's secret, like she
did with Lupin, but even this I have my doubts upon. I think that
Hermione, although she has that great reverence for teachers, would
tell Harry and Ron the truth about Snape. Perhaps not right away, but
I would think she definitely would in GoF when they are musing over
what Snape did with his "first chance"...
Snape is already quite the complex character. He has a bitter current
life, he doesn't appear to venture out anywhere, he was once a spy
and he may have resumed his double life, he has a dark past of
alliance with Voldemort, he's got a longstanding hatred of Harry's
father... why does JKR need to add vampirism to the pot? I mean,
really, how much can the poor guy deal with? I think he's got enough
characterization to build on as is.
Lyda
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 06:28:34 -0000
From: Allyse at my-deja.com
Subject: Malfoy's Quidditch prank, was Re: Chapter 13 Summary
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Robert Carnegie <robertc at r...> wrote:
> >Malfoy and
> >company specifically intended that Harry at the least
> >be distracted and lose the game, and at the most be
> >seriously injured.
>
> But _seeing_ Dementors isn't what affects Harry so badly - it's
their, um, dementing-power.
While that is certainly true, Malfoy has a very poor opinion of
Harry. I would imagine that he sneeringly thinks that the mere sight
of the Dementors would be enough to make Harry go to pieces.
Remember, Harry has good reason to be affected more than others, but
Malfoy doesn't know that (nor care). As far as he's concerned, Potter
is a weakling.
So while his ploy was doomed to failure, his intentions were
certainly repulsive.
Allyse
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:32:41 -0000
From: "Gaynor Thomas" <gaynor at cheerful.com>
Subject: Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover?
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:
> This cover is indeed a fake as I have seen it in many contests
It is part of the Harry Potter Galleries Book 5 cover contest at:
http://www.hpgalleries.com/covercontest4.htm
There's quite a few entries from different age-groups. Some are
pretty cool!
Gaynor
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 04:52:43 -0400
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Grim, Kiss, Muggles/Wizards, Quidditch, Cho, Florence, Vampires,
Ducks, Seekers
Warning: most of this post was written at 3 a.m. and is therefore prone to
sarcasm, silliness and sheer illogic.
>2. Did Harry see the Grim on the way back to the castle or was he
>just imagining things?
Neither. I think he really does see Crookshanks. I'm really surprised by
how many listies think otherwise. Am I being naive? You who think it's the
Grim, why do you?
CMC wrote:
>So how does having one's soul sucked out by a
>Dementor affect one's afterlife spiritual status? My guess is that
>the Kiss has a most unfavorable effect on same. I'll stick with
>Death.
It all comes down to what happens to your soul when you die. If it departs
from your body but lives on in some way, that's very different from what
happens to a Kissed person, whose soul is actually devoured. Shudder. If
death causes the soul to disperse (i.e. if the soul can't exist separate
from the body) then the net effect is the same either way. But I would
still rather die than be Kissed, even if the death is the death of my soul
as well. It's hard to think of a death worse than having one's soul
forcibly sucked out while one relives one's worst moments of life.
Robert wrote:
>Species diverge, but the point at which two branches of a species become
>two separate species is, I
>propose, an arbitrarily drawn line. I don't want to offend anyone,
>but I hear that it's a fact that most individual conjunctions between
>sets of human genes aren't successful.
Some taxonomic divisions are quite arbitrary, but the distinguishing line
between species is relevant to this discussion: creatures within the same
species can conceive fertile offspring, whereas creatures from different
species cannot. (A horse and a donkey, two species, can conceive a mule,
but the mule is sterile.) Or is this the distinction you're questioning? I
don't understand your second sentence.
Anyway, this is relevant because wizards and humans do have fertile
offspring. Well, we assume they're fertile, since intermarriage has been
going on a long time. It will certainly break a lot of fanfic hearts if
Harry can't have kids.
Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
>I think that wizards and witches are able to use more of their brains (or
>parts of their brains that
>muggles can't use). I remember Amanda Lewinski (and others, too)
>talking about how magic comes from the self, and stronger selves (or
>focus) can result in magic without a wand.
JKR has talked about magical ability as being like any other extraordinary
ability--like being a great pianist or pitcher or painter. In that sense,
wizards and witches do use "a part of their brain" that Muggles don't, but
they don't necessarily have more capabilities overall. They have a talent
that most people don't; so does Itzhak Perlman. Does that fit with what
you're saying?
David wrote:
>Apart, maybe, from the first (I'm a little hazy) I'm pretty sure there is
>*not one* Quidditch match which does not serve some plot purpose (I exclude
>those where Harry is not there).
I'm pretty sure you're right, with "The Quidditch Final" in PoA being the
one account that doesn't convey any plot points except Gryffindor Wins the
Cup. That one gives the most detailed account of the game itself and was
the most boring for me (even though I do like sports and don't mind
well-written descriptions of games, especially livened by Lee). I found it
so thrilling and satisfying for Gryffindor to win at last that I would have
felt cheated if JKR had put it "off-camera" ("On Saturday, Gryffindor beat
Slytherin by just enough points to win the Quidditch Cup. Harry was very,
very happy. On Sunday, he spent the entire day on his Divination
homework"--please!). I haven't been so happy since the Mets won the Series.
::begs fellow New Englanders not to revoke her Red Sox fan
privileges--I've repented, I swear!::
The very first game does serve a plot purpose; it's the one where Quirrell
jinxes the broom.
Jami wrote:
>Cho saw the faux dementors before Harry. She screamed and pointed down. Was
>that really a spontaneous reaction of
>fear? Or did she deliberately point down, hoping Harry would fall again and
>give her a clear shot at the Snitch?
Interesting question. I am inclined to think of Cho as a consistently nice
person, based on GF, but we don't know much about her. Maybe she's a
conniving creep. Maybe she paid Malfoy et al to appear as Dementors. The
plot thickens!
Re: the elusive Florence as a professor: maybe she already is. We don't
know the first name of Professors Possibly Female Sinistra, Vector,
or--appropriately for a girl who hung out around the greenhouses--Sprout.
(Florence Sprout, very botanical indeed.)
Koinonia wrote:
>Why can't JKR make up her own type of vampires? I think that is
>the stumbling block for many people.
If Snape does turn out to be a vampire, one reason Harry would be slow on
the uptake is that he has the same Hollywood-induced misconceptions about
vampires as we Muggles do, e.g. that they can't go out in the daylight.
You'd think Hermione would have caught on by now, though. Or Ron, who would
know about JKR-style vampires and who is inclined to believe anything bad
about Snape.
How about this: in JKR's universe, vampires can't lie. That's why
Dumbledore knows he can trust Snape, and why the reason why is a matter
between Prof. Snape and himself . . . This is fun! We can make up anything
at all!
Koinonia also wrote:
>Let's talk about Krum. There has to be more to Krum than we know. I
>have stated that before, as have others. In GoF it says; Harry had
>never seen anyone fly like that; Krum hardly looked as though he was
>using a broomstick at all; he moved so easily through the air that
>he looked unsupported and weightless.
>Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to
>mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal people
>can't swim in water like that.
Red flag: Krum is actually a duck. Terrific flyer, swims in water too cold
for humans, and (the capper) is duck-footed.
Catherine wrote:
>One thing strikes me however - isn't it strange that 3 out of 4 champions
>are
>seekers?
I noticed this too. And at the Yule Ball, of the eight people who are
champions or dates thereof, six are Quidditch players.
Amy Z
--------------------------------------------
The clock on Lupin's wall . . . had twelve
divisions, ranging from Sound Asleep to
Murderous Intent And No Human Conscience.
-Amanita Lestrange, "Fool's Paradise"
--------------------------------------------
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 02:20:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: FAT
Dudley's weight and Harry's skinniness are metaphors for the way they
are treated by the Dursley's: Dudley is stuffed full of good things
like his favourite foods and toys and gadgets while Harry gets by
with the bare essentials to sustain life and lives under the stairs.
It's not a weight issue per se but rather an abundance one. Kids
reading the book get the symbolism right away.
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 05:30:44 -0400
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: FAT
I don't think JKR portrays overweight people unkindly overall. There are a
couple of characters who are described as fat in whom it is not in any way
tied to their character: Bagman (GF 7), Neville (PS/SS 9). I don't have
any problem with these descriptions, and they create an overall sense that
some characters are thin, some are fat, and nothing is to be imputed to
characters based on this aspect of their looks.
However. I really, really dislike JKR's obsession with Dudley's weight. It
is not that he's a jerk; Draco's thin and he's a worse jerk--JKR is an
equal-opportunity insulter. It has to do with the way she mentions his
weight so often, like a little child who can't talk about an overweight
classmate without mentioning his weight in every other sentence. (Grownups
do this too, heaven knows. People who do not feel the need to describe an
acquaintance as "short" or "redheaded" every time they mention her seem
unable to stop saying "overweight" or "big" or "heavy." Is it just the US,
or are people everywhere unable to see past fat?)
A case in point: CoS chapter one.
"'I know what day it is,' sang Dudley, waddling towards him."
A few lines later:
"Dudley hitched up his trousers, which were slipping down his fat bottom."
A few lines after that:
"Dudley stumbled backwards at once, a look of panic on his fat face."
Why his =fat= bottom? Why his =fat= face? We don't hear about Ron's
freckled face or Hermione's bucktoothed smile on a regular basis.
This was my very first experience of HP, and it's a wonder I got through it.
I was thinking, geez, I really like this book, but what is this woman's
problem? I could give more examples from the other books, but this is the
worst scene.
One more However: As Saitaina wrote, we are seeing Dudley through Harry's
eyes. I can cut JKR some slack because I can imagine that Harry, who, being
noble and Practically Perfect, wouldn't judge someone based on his weight,
is nevertheless so filled with justified loathing for Dudley that he thinks
about him in insults. I can almost convince myself that we're getting
Harry's viewpoint here, not JKR's. Almost.
Amy Z
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you mean ter tell me," he growled at the Dursleys, "that
this boy--this boy!--knows nothin' abou'--about ANYTHING?"
Harry thought this was going a bit far.
-HP and the Philosopher's Stone
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:43:50 -0000
From: atypke at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Vampire Info--rather long
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:
>
> From 1730-35 Hungary, the Balkans, Poland, Bulgaria (!) and
> > Bohemia (now the Czech Republic) had a Vampire Epidemic>
>
> The word "vampire" comes from the Slavic word obyri or obiri, which
> > evolved into the Bulgarian(!) word "vampir".
>
>
> Where is Durmstrang? Could it be somewhere around Romania, Poland,
> Bulgaria? Seems to be very close to areas that are filled with
> vampire folklore.
>
> Krum's father spoke in Bulgarian.
>
Durmstrang is described as being in a cold climate. Both Bulgaria and
Romania have rather mild-to-mediterranean climates. Wine is produced
in both countries, for example. I'm not really sure Poland would be
cold enough either - how about Russia, Ukraine, or the Slavic Baltics?
Agatha, who finally quit lurking.
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:50:27 -0000
From: atypke at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Vampire Info--rather long
>
> Then we are told how awkward Krum looks while walking. Not to
> mention his swimming in that freezing lake in January. Normal
people
> can't swim in water like that.
>
Swimming in ice cold water is a custom in Russia and the Ukraine
(don't know about Belorus). I think they particularly do this around
Easter. I lived in Poland for a few years on a study abroad thing, and
every year the news would show "what those crazy russians" were doing.
If Durmstrang is in fact in the cold north eastern slavic countries,
then Krum's behaviour wouldn't be all that strange.
Agatha
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:06:37 -0000
From: dfrankis at dial.pipex.com
Subject: Re: Snape and Hermione (was vampires)
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at x> wrote:
> So, the essay *was* really assigned. Which brings me to my next
> conclusion: If Hermione, who puts an insane amount effort into her
> homework, can figure out the truth about Lupin's lycanthropy from
> doing Snape's essay, then wouldn't she also be able to understand
the
> truth about Snape's "Vampirism" from Lupin's essay?
<some snippage>
> Now, of course, Hermione could be protecting Snape's secret, like
she
> did with Lupin, but even this I have my doubts upon. I think that
> Hermione, although she has that great reverence for teachers, would
> tell Harry and Ron the truth about Snape. Perhaps not right away,
but
> I would think she definitely would in GoF when they are musing over
> what Snape did with his "first chance"...
>
> Snape is already quite the complex character. He has a bitter
current
> life, he doesn't appear to venture out anywhere, he was once a spy
> and he may have resumed his double life, he has a dark past of
> alliance with Voldemort, he's got a longstanding hatred of Harry's
> father... why does JKR need to add vampirism to the pot? I mean,
> really, how much can the poor guy deal with? I think he's got
enough
> characterization to build on as is.
>
> Lyda
While agree with your general comments about characterisation, I
think Hermione might keep Snape's secret secret - because of the
prejudice issue. I'm guessing that vampires are generally hated and
feared by wizards - the note in FB about the centaurs is a clue.
Hermione might then adopt a similar attitude to the one she has about
giants and cut Snape a lot of slack (as well as realising after GOF
that a word in the wrong place might blow a hole in Dumbledore's
strategy).
If Snape is a vampire, then this puts his ignoring of Hermione's
sudden tooth growth in a different light: to comment on the length of
her teeth would be a racist remark (or possibly his anti-fang,
sunlight protection potion has some odd side effects on his vision).
Finally, his task at the end of GOF would be to get the vampires on
side with Dumbledore. This could be scary if joining the wizards is
seen as a betrayal by the 'vampiring community' at large.
David, now seiously worried that Snape might trip and fall on the
point of his wand
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:42:33 +0200
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Draco - Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius
Saitaina wrote:
>Each of these quotes point to the dangerous behavior of a bullying child.
>That in itself is really a bigger issue then his weight. That bullying will
>stay with him in life and later endanger his own children. Draco Malfoy is
>not the only one indager having having the SCF (Services to Children and
>Families) or the British equvilent called on him to remove a child from his
>care in this series and it's very sad, and disturbing to see people refer
to
>such behavior as popularity.
While I'm not a Draco apologist, I really do not understand this. Draco
exhibits his bullying behavior towards the people he considers inferior to
him. While his mental processes are definitely warped (at this time- I like
the redemption scenario), this doesn't mean he cannot be genuinely devoted
to his family. Actually, that's my take on Lucius, too. (Well, not
completely. No redemption for him.)
Koinonia quotes from:
>--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub <rhodhry at y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > One could also look at this linguistically. While
> > Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm
> > und Drang, a literary movement advocating the
> > abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German
> > relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic.
> > This suggests a closer connection to Russia and
> > Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a
> > later development. To me, it doesn't not seem
> > immediately logical that Slavic students would accept
> > learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance,
> > when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to
> > justify one or more schools on their own
I wouldn't be so sure. The Habsburghs have a lot to answer for. Vienna was
the center for much of Central and Eastern Europe, and for a long time.
Consequently, German was the primary foreign language learned in those
regions (Now it's English)
I have a question regarding the friendship between Karkaroff and
Lucius. It is not clear to me when it started exactly. If it was during
their Death Eating days, than why Igor didn't rat on him, as well. Igor did
seem pretty desperate to deliver as many names as possible.
Another possibility is that they met elsewhere (possibly at Hogwarts, Igor
does say something like "good to be back" when he arrives there in GoF) and
that Igor knew nothing about Lucius' involvement.
Also, I think that Lucius wouldn't want to associate too much with someone
who is on Voldemort's hit list and a security risk (Not quite slippery
enough).
Does anyone have any ideas?
Vlatka
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 10:40:43 -0000
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
Subject: correction
I wrote:
> Anyway, this is relevant because wizards and humans do have fertile
> offspring.
I meant "wizards and Muggles." My slip rather undermined my point.
;-)
Amy Z
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 11:31:16 -0000
From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic
Spells & Charms; the nature of magic
Here it is at long last. Thanks for your patience, everybody. Not
one person sent me a Howler.
This piece is not about the class Charms, since that's an upcoming
topic, and I've left aside the vexing question of the difference
between Charms and Transfiguration (e.g. why are winged keys a Charm
and giant moving chesspieces are a Transfiguration?) because it seems
to fit in better there. Rather, I'm looking at Charms in the general
sense, as a synonym for spells, that is, magic in general. I also
haven't posed any questions; all of the below is my opinion and meant
to stimulate discussion, counter-examples, and alternative theories.
What I really wanted to write was a lyrical ode to magic such as Snape
likes to deliver to his first-years. I also wanted to compare JKR's
vision of magic to other authors'. However, I haven't the lyrical
talent of a Severus Snape nor the Comparative Magical Theories
background of many other list members. I urge those who have observed
interesting differences between the rules and nature of magic in the
Potterverse and others to take this discussion in that direction, by
all means.
One point I do notice is that unlike in some books, magic in HP is not
a matter of wishes or anything so simple; perhaps the characters in
books that feature this kind of magic have gotten a hold of a
wizard-Charmed object so that for them, all they have to do is make a
wish and magical things begin to occur. In JKR's universe, and this
is in fact the very basis for the books, which are structured around
an educational system, magic is a talent but also a discipline--a
technology that one can master only with a great deal of study and
hard work. There are other magical universes in which a school for
witchcraft and wizardry would be an odd concept.
JKR doesn't spend much time giving us Magical Theory (maybe Adalbert
Waffling's book will be the next Schoolbook to be released if we ask
very nicely); we have to draw our own conclusions from the spells we
see. Magic has its own laws. It doesn't have to fit physics or any
other system we know, but it has to be internally consistent. We can
believe in an Invisibility Cloak, but if there are then cases where it
doesn't work, we require a plausible a reason why (e.g. a magical eye,
or powers unknown but believable, such as Dumbledore's
as-yet-unexplained ability to see through it). We can believe that
one can conjure useable items out of thin air ("hundreds of squashy
purple sleeping bags" [PA 9], "heavy manacles" [PA 19]), but there
must then be a consistent reason why the Weasleys can't simply conjure
up all the things that usually require money (and good theories do
abound, which I won't detail here). Even though the laws of magic in
the HP universe are seldom made explicit, they have a high level of
internal consistency; if they did not, we would be finding holes in
every chapter instead of the occasional "how does the Fidelius Charm
work, exactly?" that surfaces.
Some of the laws seem to be:
-The world is full of naturally-occurring magic aside from that
created by humans. There are magical plants (mandrakes, Devil's
Snare, etc. etc.) and animals (dozens; see FB) as well as magical
people. Whether there are any naturally-occurring magical objects is
unknown; the books are filled with magical objects, but most seem to
be enchanted (e.g. flying Ford Anglia) or created (e.g. the
Philosopher's Stone) by humans. There are many whose magical
properties may be human in origine or not (crystal balls, the Mirror
of Erised). If anyone can identify an object that we know for a fact
doesn't get its magical properties from humans, please do.
-It is not possible to bring the dead back to life (GF 36)
-Less definitively, it is not possible to re-ensoul victims of a
Dementor's Kiss (PA 12)
Spells, at least some of them, behave like physical energy, with
forces, counterforces, and vectors much like those seen in physical
objects. A spell can be "deflected" and "rebound," as Voldemort's
attempted Avada Kedavra against Harry in 1981 did (GF 33). Two spells
can collide like billiard balls: "Jets of light shot from both wands,
hit each other in midair, and ricocheted off at angles--Harry's hit
Goyle in the face, and Malfoy's hit Hermione" (GF 18). The storm of
Stunning spells that the Ministry wizards send over Harry, Ron, and
Hermione's heads in the wood after the World Cup create a wind that
ripples their hair. Making magic uses energy as well. "[H]is
Patronus was too feeble to drive the Dementor away. All it did was
hover, like a semi-transparent cloud, draining Harry of energy as he
fought to keep it there" (PA 12).
Likewise, there are certain basic elements of magic that are a matter
of mechanics: pronouncing words correctly (otherwise, you might end up
with a buffalo on your chest, PS/SS 10), learning wrist movements
(PS/SS 10), adding Potions ingredients in just the right proportions
(PA 7) and at the right times (PS/SS 8). A wand is necessary for most
magic.
However, magic is far more than mechanics.
* * * * *
"But that was the easy part, I'm afraid. You see, the word alone is
not enough." --Professor Lupin, PA 7
The words are just one ingredient of a spell, and there is only so
much magic one can learn from books. An intangible and crucial
element of most spells is intention, which can even make words
unnecessary. Some wand-spells seem not to require an incantation at
all (e.g. Snape conjuring up ropes, PA 19; the rope-ends fly to him
with a click of his fingers), though this may just be Rowling tiring
of coming up with a pithy quasi-Latin term every time someone waves a
wand. "Accio" is enough to Summon whatever one is thinking of,
without the noun; Molly Summons the Ton-Tongue Toffees (GF 6) and
Harry the Triwizard Cup (GF 34) this way. For that matter, intention
is key even when one does speak the noun; otherwise, "Accio Firebolt"
would bring every Firebolt in the world that isn't nailed down, but it
doesn't; it only brings the one Harry is thinking of, his own. Even
charmed objects will respond more or less strongly depending on the
intention of the wizard; Neville's broom does not at first respond to
"Up!" while Harry, who is a natural flier, is unafraid of heights, and
has been "looking forward to learning to fly more than anything else,"
gets an instantaneous response (PS/SS 9). Although Harry's
speculation that brooms, like horses, can sense fear may be tongue in
cheek, it is true that Neville's feelings do not match his words, and
his intention to keep his feet on the ground appears to hamper his
ability to command the broom. An ability to concentrate one's mind
under stress is therefore very important to making magic.
* * * * *
"Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know."
"I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let
go of him.
"Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more
important things -- friendship and bravery and . . ." --PS/SS 17
Another necessary element of many spells is, for lack of a more
precise word, character. In some cases the personal element needed is
some kind of experience, as with Harry's struggles to find a memory
that is happy enough to make the Patronus incantation effective, since
it "will work only if you are concentrating, with all your might, on a
single, very happy memory" (PA 12). In others it is a personal
quality such as the independence and will power that enable Harry to
resist the Imperius Curse appears to stem from his independence and
will power. Less nobly, Harry is stubborn, which also stands him in
good stead. His inner voice balks at doing something as pointless as
jumping onto the desk just on Moody's say-so: "Stupid thing to do,
really . . . . I don't think I will, thanks" (GF 15). Perhaps some
spells require downright evil characteristics; for example, perhaps
only those who can call upon an inner reserve of sadism can
successfully cast the Cruciatus. The intricate interaction of magic
and character is crucial to JKR's universe; she is writing about
Harry's development, not only into a practitioner of magic, but into
adulthood, and his adventures are as much explorations of human
experience and emotion and his own deepening character as magical
exploits. Otherwise the books would not be nearly so enchanting (pun
intended).
Finally, magic requires innate magical ability. It may be that
Muggles could wave wands and order broomsticks, "up!" without the
slightest response. Some magical objects respond to Muggles--hence
the necessity of the Muggle Protection Act, to protect unwary Muggles
from enchanted objects such as sugar tongs that will clamp on their
noses (CS 3, 4). But others, surely, respond only to a wizard/witch,
or else there would be no difference between Muggles and magical folk.
However, "wands and magical ability" is an upcoming topic, so I'll
leave it at that.
* * * * *
"Take it, or I'll hex you. I know some good ones now." --Harry, GF 37
A brief note on hexes, jinxes, and curses. One can hex/jinx/curse
both people and objects. Just like "spell" and "charm," these terms
for "not very nice spell" seem to be used more or less
interchangeably, though "curse" is generally reserved for very
destructive spells such as the Unforgivable Curses. "Jinx" may have a
light tone to the Muggle ear (it does to mine), but McGonagall uses
the term to describe the things she fears Sirius Black might have done
to Harry's Firebolt (PA 11), such as a "Hurling Hex" (PA 12), which
are far from playful.
So . . . your thoughts?
Amy Z
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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 11:31:34 -0000
From: hamster8 at hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius
Wow ... I actually have stuff to say!
*Al delurks in a shower of purple sparks*
Christian Stub -
"One could also look at this linguistically. While
Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm
und Drang, a literary movement advocating the
abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German
relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic.
This suggests a closer connection to Russia and
Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a
later development. To me, it doesn't not seem
immediately logical that Slavic students would accept
learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance,
when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to
justify one or more schools on their own "
Me -
I mentally located it in Norway, I have to say. There is some point
in GoF (I think on the Hogwarts Express where 'our gang' overhear
Draco drawling to himself) where Harry imagines throwing Draco off a
glacier, or something of that ilk. To my mind, where else in Europe
are there glaciers? Switzerland doesn't really seem right. But then
again, my knowledge of the Carpathians is very limited, and who's to
say Durmstrang might not be as far away as the Caucasus Mountains, or
even the Urals. I have to admit, I find JK's Germanic/Slavic fusion
quite confusing. Then again, perhaps I should consider that the books
are fiction, and JK probably didn't expect us to pick up on it (this =
my standard explanation for anything in HP that defies explanation,
like the missing 24 hours thingie)
Of course, Hogwarts was surrounded by very tall mountains, and JK's
descriptions certainly don't (to my mind, others may disagree) make it
sound like it is located in a part of the UK that exists to Muggles;
Scotland at a pinch, but in my experience the Highlands aren't
rugged enough to be in Hogwarts' neighbourhood. Perhaps Durmstrang is
likewise in some sort of 'magical dimension' kind of thing.
Vlatka -
"I have a question regarding the friendship between Karkaroff and
Lucius. It is not clear to me when it started exactly. If it was
during their Death Eating days, than why Igor didn't rat on him, as
well. Igor did seem pretty desperate to deliver as many names as
possible. Another possibility is that they met elsewhere (possibly at
Hogwarts, Igor does say something like "good to be back" when he
arrives there in GoF) and that Igor knew nothing about Lucius'
involvement.
Also, I think that Lucius wouldn't want to associate too much with
someone who is on Voldemort's hit list and a security risk (Not quite
slippery enough)."
Lucius did evade Azkaban, of course. Perhaps neither of them were
aware the other was a Death Eater. IIRC they wore masks most of the
time when together ... would it be *too* difficult to remain quite
anonymous?
P'raps Igor didn't grass up Lucius because they already were great
friends - Igor knew Lucius was free, and knew that if he gave the name
of a man who had managed to escape Azkaban, Lucius would come and hunt
him down *if* and when Igor was released, (which, obviously, he was).
Lucius certainly won't want to associate with Igor in future
installments (if JK keeps the characters 'in play' so to speak)
because Igor didn't Apparate immediately to Voldemort's side in the
graveyard at Little Hangleton.
Al
*medics cuff Al, and drag him screaming back to lurkdom*
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:04:52 -0000
From: meboriqua at aol.com
Subject: Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover?
I have seen this cover beofre - quite a few months ago, actually. I
also read somewhere (can't remember where) that this cover is already
the cover of another, older book.
Sorry to be so vague, but I can't imagine that JKR would allow the
cover of OoP to be released when the book itself won't be out for
*sob* another year!
--jenny from ravenclaw*********************************************
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:47:52 -0000
From: meboriqua at aol.com
Subject: Re: Spells & Charms; the nature of magic
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
>
> Another necessary element of many spells is, for lack of a more
> precise word, character.>
<The intricate interaction of magic
> and character is crucial to JKR's universe; she is writing about
> Harry's development, not only into a practitioner of magic, but
into
> adulthood, and his adventures are as much explorations of human
> experience and emotion and his own deepening character as magical
> exploits. Otherwise the books would not be nearly so enchanting
(pun intended)>.
>
Great comments! What you wrote is pretty much what I, too think of
magic in HP's world.
I snipped the comments about magic ability, development and character
because that is something I have noticed throughout the books so
far. The more powerful the wizard/witch, the more and better magic
they are able to perform.
In GoF, when BC Sr. is delirious and goes into his memories, he
mentions that his son received a nice number of O.W.L.S. I thought
this was an important tidbit, because it helped convince me, later,
that Crouch Jr. was truly able to impersonate Moody for so long. He
had obviously been an excellent student at Hogwarts (much like
Hermione, I imagine) who took his studies very seriously. He was
clearly a powerful wizard (especially being able to fight the
Imperius Curse and remember all of his magic after his stay in
Azkaban).
As for Harry, his abilities are getting stronger and more precise
each year he is in school, regardless of his grades (I don't think he
spends even a fraction of the time studying that Hermione does). We
know already how much character Harry has because he has managed, for
the most part, to come out of the Dreadful Dursleys' home relatively
unscathed. He even has quite a bit of confidence in himself, if not
a good deal of pride (as Crouch Jr. mentions to him about Harry not
asking for help with the 2nd Task). I believe all of these things
play a part in his abilities in magic.
I really like how JKR doesn't make magic limitless, like in
the "Sabrina, the Teenage Witch" series. There are laws and serious
consequences for breaking them. If there weren't, there'd be many
more Voldie types running around, IMO. For example, if everyone
could Apparate, that's all anyone would ever do, as well as do a
little Imperius action if one wanted the object of his/her affectins
to respond.
I could go on and on, but I won't.
Thanks again for the great post!
--jenny from ravenclaw*********************************************
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 05:51:46 -0700
From: "Saitaina" <saitaina at wizzards.net>
Subject: Re: Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix"
Hun, the tentative release date is January, not another year. That's what,
seven months away, chill out, no need to sob.
----- Original Message -----
From: <meboriqua at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 5:04 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover?
> I have seen this cover beofre - quite a few months ago, actually. I
> also read somewhere (can't remember where) that this cover is already
> the cover of another, older book.
>
> Sorry to be so vague, but I can't imagine that JKR would allow the
> cover of OoP to be released when the book itself won't be out for
> *sob* another year!
>
> --jenny from ravenclaw*********************************************
>
>
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:57:13 -0000
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com
Subject: Re: FAT
This really bothered me too, especially when I was reading GoF. That
was when Dudley was forced on a diet, and when the twins played a
prank on him with the toffee. I thought Harry was awful for laughing
at him then (at least, it keeps us knowing that he's not perfect.)
Well I hope JKR is going somewhere with this fat thing. I believe her
point here is to criticize the parenting that he has received from
the Dursleys. She's said in an interview that she really feels sorry
for Dudley; that in some ways, he's had just as scarred a childhood
as Harry. Look at him - he's a bully, he's a glutton. Dudley is
portrayed as a spoiled kid (doesn't McGonagall say he was screaming
for sweets in the beginning of PS/SS - and that's when he was a
really small child!) before Harry comes along, or I might suggest
that this has something to do with the Dursleys treating Dudley
better than Harry out of spite. As some other people have mentioned,
I don't think this will affect overweight children (I hope not) but
it does raise important questions about the Dursleys and makes me
wonder about them, especially about their pasts. Petunia strikes me
as someone who was very lonely and maybe depressed before she got
married and had a baby. There is no evidence for that, but in the
beginning of PS/SS, that is just the impression I get.
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:46:46 -0000
From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it
Subject: Re: Snape as vampire
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 08:49 PM 6/6/01 -0400, JamiDeise at a... wrote:
> >because a werewolf is a mere beast and a vampire is the epitome of
undead
> >cool?
>
> They *do* sell blood-flavored lollies for vampires in Hogsmeade...
>
>
>
>
-- Dave
Sorry, Dave,
but that's not really correct: They sell blood-flavoured lollies, but
it's Hermione who thinks Harry wouldn't like them an supposes they
are for Vampires.
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:50:35 -0000
From: "Demelza" <muggle-reader at angelfire.com>
Subject: Re: SPOILER: "Order of the Phoenix" book cover?
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> The fake cover seems to suggest a desire for the Fab Three to
> acquire an (illegal?) flying carpet.... Might there be something in
> this? It *does* come up in GoF...
>
The cover has an interesting concept nonetheless. The phoenix,
erupting like an atomic bomb-mushroom cloud, over what looks like a
city of tents and three figures on a flying carpet zooming away, very
"Enola Gay"-ish.
Demelza.
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:06:11 -0000
From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it
Subject: short introduction & lots of questions
Hi, everybody,
first I have to make an apologetical auto- presentation: I'm an
Austrian (NOT having voted Haider, just to get things straight)
currently living in Italy, so please everybody forgive me if my
English is not quite up to your standards.
Anyway: This is my first day in this group and I'm quite thrilled
writing this message.
Question 1: Can anybody tell me how a person becomes Minister of
Magic? Because it is mentioned that e.g. Barty Crouch was believed to
be the next minitser, but after his son's trial and his wife's death
his popularity went down and so, in the end, the lucky one was
Cornelius fudge. But it is never made clear who nominates or elects
the minister. (On the contrary, the Hogwarts Headmaster is obviously
elected by the board of governors)
Question 2: Who on earth had the idea that snape might be a Vampire?
he most certainly would need a shrink, as he's suffering from a very
bad inferiority complex, but a Vampire....
Question 3: How will, in your opinion, continue the relationship
between Hermione and duck-footed Viktor Krum? because he seems much
more interested in her than she in him.
Well, that's enough for the moment.
Pigwidgeon37
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:15:19 -0000
From: "Lyda Clunas" <lydaclunas at xfilesfan.com>
Subject: Re: Snape and Hermione (was vampires)
David wrote:
> While agree with your general comments about characterisation, I
> think Hermione might keep Snape's secret secret - because of the
> prejudice issue. I'm guessing that vampires are generally hated
> and feared by wizards - the note in FB about the centaurs is a
> clue. Hermione might then adopt a similar attitude to the one she
> has about giants and cut Snape a lot of slack (as well as realising
> after GOF that a word in the wrong place might blow a hole in
> Dumbledore's strategy).
Good point. I suppose it's possible; Hermione is a pretty mature
girl. However, we don't see *any* indication at all that she knows
something about Snape. We did see an indication with Lupin. Has she
suddenly become a better secret-keeper? I can't say. But I'm still
anti-Vampire!Snape nonetheless.
> If Snape is a vampire, then this puts his ignoring of Hermione's
> sudden tooth growth in a different light: to comment on the length
> of her teeth would be a racist remark (or possibly his anti-fang,
> sunlight protection potion has some odd side effects on his vision).
So, your saying that he says "I see no difference" because he doesn't
want to be racist? Forgive the snort (*snort*), but if he didn't want
to appear to be making an off-color remark that might implicate him,
why couldn't he just say "Hospital wing" and leave it at that?
> Finally, his task at the end of GOF would be to get the vampires on
> side with Dumbledore. This could be scary if joining the wizards
> is seen as a betrayal by the 'vampiring community' at large.
This I have considered. In fact, this is the only thing about the
entire Vampire theory that I like, because it's a plausible idea on
what Snape is actually does that fateful evening. However, it's still
not enough to convert me to support the Vampire idea.
Snape may be a lot of nasty things, but I'm also quite convinced that
he's very very human, as well.
> David, now seiously worried that Snape might trip and fall on the
> point of his wand
LOL, what an undignified way to die! :)
Lyda
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 16:20:21 -0000
From: pigwidgeon37 at yahoo.it
Subject: Re: Draco - Durmstrang loction - Igor and Lucius
Hi,Vlatka,
as to Malfoy- karkaroff: That those two are friends (if Lucius malfoy
can be somebody's friend, which I strongly doubt), is something Draco
says when talking to Crabbe and Goyle on the train. And Ron deducts
that they met at the Quidditch World- Cup.
Of course, they met much earlier, being both of them Death Eaters.
Lucius M. would not have wanted to send his son to Durmstrang because
he was such a good friend of Karkaroff's, but because there, he would
have thorougly learned the Dark Arts, not only defence against them.
And don't forget that the desire to send Draco there goes back to the
period of book 1, where the resurrection of Voldemort was not as
palpable as in book 4- so being associated with somebody on
voldemort's hit list wouldn#t have been as embarrassing as in book 4.
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., zora_djevojka at y... wrote:
>
> Saitaina wrote:
>
>
> >Each of these quotes point to the dangerous behavior of a bullying
child.
> >That in itself is really a bigger issue then his weight. That
bullying will
> >stay with him in life and later endanger his own children. Draco
Malfoy is
> >not the only one indager having having the SCF (Services to
Children and
> >Families) or the British equvilent called on him to remove a child
from his
> >care in this series and it's very sad, and disturbing to see
people refer to
> >such behavior as popularity.
>
> While I'm not a Draco apologist, I really do not understand this.
Draco
> exhibits his bullying behavior towards the people he considers
inferior to
> him. While his mental processes are definitely warped (at this
time- I like
> the redemption scenario), this doesn't mean he cannot be genuinely
devoted
> to his family. Actually, that's my take on Lucius, too. (Well, not
> completely. No redemption for him.)
>
> Koinonia quotes from:
>
> >--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub <rhodhry at y...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > One could also look at this linguistically. While
> > > Durmstrang is a name derived from German (from Sturm
> > > und Drang, a literary movement advocating the
> > > abandonment of sense), and seems to indicate a German
> > > relation, both Karkaroff and Viktor Krum are Slavic.
> > > This suggests a closer connection to Russia and
> > > Eastern Europe than Germany, though that may be a
> > > later development. To me, it doesn't not seem
> > > immediately logical that Slavic students would accept
> > > learning in German, rather than Russian, for instance,
> > > when Slavic-speakers certainly are numerous enough to
> > > justify one or more schools on their own
>
> I wouldn't be so sure. The Habsburghs have a lot to answer for.
Vienna was
> the center for much of Central and Eastern Europe, and for a long
time.
> Consequently, German was the primary foreign language learned in
those
> regions (Now it's English)
>
>
>
> I have a question regarding the friendship between Karkaroff and
> Lucius. It is not clear to me when it started exactly. If it was
during
> their Death Eating days, than why Igor didn't rat on him, as well.
Igor did
> seem pretty desperate to deliver as many names as possible.
> Another possibility is that they met elsewhere (possibly at
Hogwarts, Igor
> does say something like "good to be back" when he arrives there in
GoF) and
> that Igor knew nothing about Lucius' involvement.
>
> Also, I think that Lucius wouldn't want to associate too much with
someone
> who is on Voldemort's hit list and a security risk (Not quite
slippery enough).
>
> Does anyone have any ideas?
>
>
> Vlatka
>
>
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