From optimistic_88 at msn.com  Thu Mar  1 00:11:21 2001
From: optimistic_88 at msn.com (optimistic_88 at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 00:11:21 -0000
Subject: Shippers
Message-ID: <97k439+umii@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13200

I was wondering who are on what ships for this group? And do you see 
the relationships you are for are long or short term? I am personally 
a H/H shippers (my long term couple), I am also a D/G shipper (though 
I'm not sure how long that will last...), I see R/H (but not as a 
long term relationship between the two.), I also see all slash 
couples (some of which I think are quite funny like H/V, R/L, R/V...I 
DON'T see Draco slash though. As Cassandra Claire's Draco said to 
Harry: "Paying attention to my hair does not make me gay. Paying 
attention to your hair, that would make me gay. Anyway, that's a 
laughable assumption. Me, gay? Draco Malfoy? Madly loved by all women 
over the age of twelve? Six times already The Teenage Witches' `Most 
Eligible" list? Author of the best-selling autobiography "Why I Like 
to Do It With Girls?'") ect. So...........where are the shippers?
~Kim B.




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Thu Mar  1 00:40:29 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:40:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie dialogue (FF)
In-Reply-To: <97jgpg+8udr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102281915460.6459-100000@er6.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13201

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Amy Z wrote:

> Damn it all, I only know one line from the movie and I dislike it.  
> Grrr.
(retaining Amy's spoiler space, just in case)
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
<snip>
> www.countingdown.com reports that the one line of dialogue in the 
> teaser trailer is Hagrid saying, "Harry, you're the boy that lived!"  
> I have a pet peeve about this line.  Don't ask me to explain it 
> rationally, but it has to do with the fact that fans (e.g. writers, 
> and presumably readers, of fanfic) are WAY more enamored of the whole 
> "Boy Who Lived" thing than Jo herself seems to be.  
<snip>
> In fanfic it's everywhere.  I'm not sure why people seize on this 
> phrase, but in my mind it says little about Harry that I care about, 
> and just has the ring of a slogan, which is the closest I can come to 
> explaining why I dislike the emphasis on it.  

I think it does indeed sound like a slogan; I've always assumed that it
was oft-repeated at the fall of Voldemort by newspapers, Ministry
spokespeople, etc., becoming part of the general mythology of the
struggle with Voldemort.  It strikes me as a rather propagandistic
phrase (without presupposing either a negative or positive value for
propaganda), that would have to be familiar to everyone raised in the
Wizarding world. I think it can't help but be a phrase that would inform
everyone perceptions of Harry -- but that is not the same as saying that
any particular wizard would ever use the phrase when talking *to*
Harry.  After all, no one would have addressed Augustus as
"Romulus" in person, though there are many references in art and
literature to him as the 'new Romulus'.  (I'm sorry -- I did try to
think of a 20th c. example, really I did.)  Likewise I'm sure many
magical folk continue to think of H. as 'The Boy Who Lived', even if
only subconsciously, but would never say, "Oh, you're Harry Potter, The
Boy Who Lived?"

I have, I must admit, used the term myself in a fic -- but I think of it
as precisely a slogan that is appropriate in circumstances emphasizing
Harry's fame for his survival as a baby.  I agree there are many
examples in which the phrase is poorly placed (e.g., "Lunch was almost
over.  Ron looked over at his best friend Harry, The Boy Who Lived, and
then they went to Potions class."), but I think it can be effective in
the right context.

And I rather like the way it sounds, myself, but that might just be
because it has the ring of a nice epic epithet...

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Thu Mar  1 01:22:24 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:22:24 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie Trailer
Message-ID: <d3.1122a232.27cefe51@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13202

In a message dated Wed, 28 Feb 2001  4:07:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com writes:

<< OK... Does anyone know when the trailer is in Australia? I really 
want to see it... the stills look AWESOME but I don't know how I can 
see it in Australia...

~*Vicki*~>>


It will be available on the Harry Potter web site as well.

Warner Bros. doesn't want to create another 'Star Wars' frenzy where fans go to see a film, they would otherwise not go to, just to see a trailer.

~Hedwig~






From wings909 at aol.com  Thu Mar  1 01:39:33 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:39:33 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie Trailer
Message-ID: <da.2f4a2b2.27cf0255@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13203

In a message dated 02/28/2001 8:35:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hedwigthecat at aol.com writes:

<< Warner Bros. doesn't want to create another 'Star Wars' frenzy where fans 
go to see a film, they would otherwise not go to, just to see a trailer.
  >>
 
Instead they plan to cause the sites to crash because everyone tried to view 
the trailer at once....just like Star Wars (sigh).

Is this thing going to show on American TV stations any time soon?  Just 
thinking that channels like Nickelodeon and the Fox Family Channel would be 
ripe breeding grounds for HP movie buzz.

Cheers,
Paula 
Gryffindor



From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  1 01:49:55 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:49:55 -0500
Subject: Non-Serious Black Summary
Message-ID: <000001c0a1f3$744e7e80$0159d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13204

Since Carole is worn out from a lack of sleep, she has allowed me to provide
a brief character summary of Sirius Black.   She believes that my summary
may deviate slightly form the normal character summaries, so she promises to
provide a more suitable one in a few days.  And so we begin...

Call me Anamagi.  I am a cool lookin' biker dude with long black hair and a
washboard stomach, and whenever life would get me down, I would leave my job
and head for one special place.  When my spirits needed restoring, I could
always count on a trip to the forest.  Just think of all those trees!!!
Anyway, I have this habit of turning into a salivating, scruffy-looking,
black furry wild animal... every Friday and Saturday night!  I also change
into a dog on occasions.

  Back in School, I hung out with Wormtail, Moony, and Prongs.  We were all
able to transform into different animals, so that we could spy on chicks
while they were taking showers... I mean so that we could keep Lupin company
on those nights with a full moon.  He tended to turn into a Werewolf and so
he needed other animals around to keep him form tearing other people to
shreds or dressing up in sheep's clothing and hanging out with the nancyboys
on the weekends.

James Potter was my best friend in school, and he was nicknamed Prongs
because he was always watching stag films in the school dorms...I mean..
because he turned into a buck ( which of course by today's standards is only
worth about 35 cents).  Wormtail was a fellow named Peter Pettrigrew who
turned out to be a real rat in the end because he turned James and Lily
Potter in to the Dark Lord Himself ( Squidward ) sometimes referred to "He
who must not be Blamed".   You know the fellow that Clinton just pardoned
after receiving a few small donations to the keep Bill off the streets fund
and a weekend with his spouse.

Anyway, I took the rap for Wormtail when the Wizard Police found James and
Lily dead.  So I had to spend a few years in Azkaban (located somewhere near
Serbia, I think).  The place is guarded by all these goonbaits in oversized
robes (to hide their severe skin rashes, you know the heartbreak of
scoriosis and such).  These guards are called Doctor Dimentos and they
listen to silly songs from the Spike Jones era every Sunday night.  I
escaped one Sunday night when they were listening to a Weird Al Yankovic
marathon on the radio.  I had to get that scoundrel Wormtail who was hanging
out with Harry Potter's best friend Ron.  He kept himself in his rat form
all the time ( probably waiting for a pardon from Bill Clinton or
something). But I tracked him down and I would have eaten him with a some
fava beans if Harry hadn't stopped me.

Harry's my Godson, and my favorite person in the world.  I wanted him to
come live with me so we could watch stag films together like his father... I
mean so we could become reacquainted and make up for all that time I spent
in prison.  I am unable to have Harry stay with me unfortunately because I
am on the run from the law thanks to that no-good slimy Professor Snape and
that Crazy werewolf Lupin who turned into a furball at the wrong moment.  I
knew we shouldn't have taken that path by the girls' showers..but anyway...
I escaped from certain death (being kissed by a pimply-faced Dr. Dimento
who's never had a date) and flew off on the back of a Hypocrite ( i.e..
someone who drives to a "Save the Earth Rally" in an oversized Sport Utility
Vehicle).

Nowadays I give Harry advice during our famous "fireside chats" and help him
win valuable prizes at the Tri-Sexual Tournaments..( I mean Tri-Wizard's
Tournaments).  I like to hang out in coffee shops and hit on unsuspecting
undersexed American female lawyers.   I show them my stunning pecs and abs,
then I slip 'em my magic wand.  The rest is just magic!!!  Let's face it,
I'm a babe magnet.  Aloof and dangerous, yet vulnerable somehow.  I give
them my best James Dean look and serve them a cup of my special brand of
java.  If you ever happen to see a black dog staring at you for a long time,
it's probably me.  I usually hang out near the girls' showers.  They just
can't resist a cute dog!!!

Well I hope I hit on all the right points.  I am a bit rusty these days.

Later
Randy








From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  1 02:16:26 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:16:26 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Cedric (was Envy/Respect)
References: <97je03+esn6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9DB0FA.FCA9E52E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13205

Amy Z wrote:

> One more point in *support* of the homoerotic interpretation:  we hear
> a few times that Cedric is extremely good-looking, not from others,
> but from our Harry-oriented narrator.  So we are getting that opinion
> from Harry's POV.

Could someone define "homoerotic" for me, then? I'm perfectly capable of
appreciating that another woman is beautiful, without any erotic content
in the observation.

To expand in rambling fashion--I think it's a mark of a great work, that
it can be validly interpreted any number of ways. [Best example: the
Bible.] So I'm certain the homoerotic reading of this scene has some
validity, but this discussion seems to be edging the way of the theories
of Marja Gambutas (cultural anthropologist, I think), a big proponent of
the goddess theory (women had all the power and most deities were female
before men figured out they had something to do with kids--as in Jean
Auel's stuff). Gambutas has some good points, but her theories carry a
rational hypothesis to the point where any prehistoric depiction
involving a circle with a dot in it is a "breast." Yeesh.Thus I'm asking
for a definition, for clarity's sake.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Thu Mar  1 02:45:15 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:45:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie Trailer
In-Reply-To: <da.2f4a2b2.27cf0255@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFAELICCAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13206

We agree with you! Roy and I would think they would want to where so many
families watch those channels. So far we have read the first 3 books and are
on chapter 10 in GoF. We do a family read time for at least 2 chapters. We
are all anxious for November 16 to get here in Revere,Massachusetts! Anyway
time will show us where to look. Going to try the bbc web site later and
maybe they might show a peek. Keeping reading HP and if you find out
anything all of us on HP for grownups will check in to it too. Same here if
we find out anything on the trailer.  Your friends in Revere, Roy and Wanda

-----Original Message-----
From: wings909 at aol.com [mailto:wings909 at aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 8:40 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Movie Trailer


In a message dated 02/28/2001 8:35:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hedwigthecat at aol.com writes:

<< Warner Bros. doesn't want to create another 'Star Wars' frenzy where fans
go to see a film, they would otherwise not go to, just to see a trailer.
  >>

Instead they plan to cause the sites to crash because everyone tried to view
the trailer at once....just like Star Wars (sigh).

Is this thing going to show on American TV stations any time soon?  Just
thinking that channels like Nickelodeon and the Fox Family Channel would be
ripe breeding grounds for HP movie buzz.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor

_______________________________________________

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From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Mar  1 02:55:10 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:55:10 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Non-Serious Black Summary
In-Reply-To: <000001c0a1f3$744e7e80$0159d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEAPDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13207

Oh Randy... we've missed you.  This is the best character summary yet!  Did
you write "Harry Has Two Godfathers" as well?  (j/k)

Thanks for a glorious laugh, which came hard on the heels of a prime
belly-laugh visit to the Twinkie Experiment Page so kindly pointed out by my
fellow lunatics over on the OTChatter group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter


SML

==============================================
"Harry," said Lockhart, his large white teeth
gleaming in the sunlight as he shook his head.
"Harry, Harry, Harry."
Completely nonplussed, Harry said nothing.
   ---Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
==============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Carole Estes [mailto:lrcjestes at earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 6:50 PM
To: HPforGrownups
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Non-Serious Black Summary


Since Carole is worn out from a lack of sleep, she has allowed me to provide
a brief character summary of Sirius Black.   She believes that my summary
may deviate slightly form the normal character summaries, so she promises to
provide a more suitable one in a few days.  And so we begin...

Call me Anamagi.  <snip>
Later
Randy





From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  1 03:39:17 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:39:17 -0600
Subject: Harry and Cedric (was Envy/Respect)
References: <97k0nj+39nn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9DC465.B5666C79@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13208

Hi --

eccleston at clara.co.uk wrote:

> Shouldn't we remember that, despite JKR writing for a steadily
> evolving audience following her success, that these are childrens
> books? JKR is showing herself to be very sensitive to childrens
> issues in the UK e.g. one parent families. How would a child of, say
> 12, read this?

I must disagree that they are "childrens' books."  Pet peeve of mine
(laughs thinking about all the "old-timers" running to hide now -- "Oh,
no!  Another Penny rant.  What happened to her gestational carpal tunnel
affliction?").  Back to the rant: would there really be close to 1000
members of this group, HP for Grownups, if these were just childrens'
books that happen to be enjoyed by some parents or what have you?  JKR
herself also has said countless times that she did not write the HP
books with a target audience in mind.  She wrote the first one as
something she herself would enjoy reading (she was, obviously, an adult
at that time).  She's also said over & over since GoF that she does not
intend to "tone it down" for her younger readers.

My second point to the above is that we are an adult literary discussion
group, so we needn't worry about whether a 12 yr old child would
understand Jen's homo-erotic literary crit analysis of the Harry/Cedric
dynamic (or what said 12 yr old might think of that analysis).  This
group is for adults to discuss the books after all.  :--)

I enjoyed Jen's analysis.  My lit crit days are in such the distant past
that I don't really feel qualified to chime in with too much original
thought.  I hadn't really thought about that angle before, and it's
interesting.  Like Amanda, I think it's a mark of really great
literature when different interpretations can be brought to bear.  I'd
also second Amanda's request for a nice definition of homo-erotic, just
for discussion purposes.  :--)

I do think Harry was relieved in some measure when Cho turned him down
for the Ball.  And, as our dear Catlady has pointed out numerous times,
Harry really done much more than fantasize about winning Cho's
admiration.  At least he hasn't shared with the readers any more
explicit fantasies that he might have had with regard to Cho
(specifically, he hasn't even envisioned what it might be like to kiss
her).  I think it's interesting that JKR had really played up the whole
"they will be adolescents in Book 4" thing, but Hermione is the only one
of the Trio who really had any sort of true romantic relationship in
GoF.  Harry & Ron were both still fairly mired in pre-adolescence IMO.

Gwen said:


> It's also ironic that Cedric's death means Harry will probably never get
> Cho. Regardless of how "in love" or "not in love" she was with Cedric (and
> personally I think not so much), her feelings toward him will always remain
> unresolved. She will not be able to distinguish how she felt before he died
> from how she felt when he did not come back, and Harry did. IMO, they will
> probably become friends, and maybe down the line lovers, but nothing will
> happen on that front for a while.
>
I'm wondering how you square your first sentence with your last point.
I'm in the camp that believes that there's too much tragedy for any
Harry/Cho romance now, so I agree with your first point.  But, it seems
unlikely to me that they would be lovers down the road ... the "too much
tragedy" thing will always be there.  I do think they might become
friends though.

Jen said:

> But, I would argue, it's not so simple as that.  Harry is certainly
> jealous that Cedric, and not he, is going with Cho.  I wouldn't deny
> that.  However, (love) triangles are funny structures, because by their
> nature they set up a connection between the two rivals, mediated through
> the presence of the beloved.  And since Harry repeatedly casts Cedric in
> the role of desired object, I get a distinct sense from the text that
> Harry's desire is moving (though not consciously) towards both.  Nor
> would I say that Harry is necessarily jealous of Cho.  I see no
> evidence of that in the text; mostly he's emotionally uninvested in her
> following her refusal.  However, his emotional reactions to Cedric
> continue.  But I'm definitely not positing any sort of situation where
> his 'real feelings' are the inverse of what he believes he is feeling
> (reaction-formation).
>
Jen I'd love to hear your thoughts on a possible love triangle among the
Trio (Harry, Ron & Hermione that is).  I guess there are various ways
that triangle might work, eh?  In any case, I'd welcome your analysis.

> You know, it often seems in lit crit that exactly the opposite of
> Occam's razor applies: the more convoluted a reading, the more
> persuasive the argument for it. *g*
>
Since many of the arguments of the H/H crowd (myself included) are
accused of being "convoluted," maybe we are on more solid ground then.
<vbg>

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  1 03:55:50 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:55:50 -0600
Subject: Fleur's Intelligence
References: <97jceh+n8s9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9DC846.3FEF9BF@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13209

Hi --

Amy Z wrote:

> I strongly disagree with the characterization of Fleur as stupid.  She
> is vain, which fits another blond stereotype, but not stupid.  Not
> only is she a champion, but let's remember that the Triwizard
> Tournament is not played fair; Crouch cheats on behalf of both Cedric
> and Harry.  Fleur might have won if she weren't Stunned by Crouch.
> For that matter, maybe she'd have had time to study up on grindylows
> if someone had given *her* a hint about the egg early on.

I disagree that the mere fact that she's the BeauxBatons Champion means
she is *not* stupid.  What if she happens to be the most intelligent of
the BeauxBatons bunch but isn't really all that bright?  What if the
Goblet of Fire doesn't really evaluate one's intelligence?  I don't see
where we've any proof that intelligence is necessarily a critical aspect
of being selected as a school champion.  And, as far as I can tell,
Fleur is *not* depicted as being particularly bright.  She was
consistently in 4th place I believe.  Even if Crouch hadn't stunned her
and she had reached the Cup first, would the points she might have
garnered been enough to propel her into being the TriWizard Champion?  I
don't think so.  Plus, we *know* Madame Maxime clued her in with the 1st
Task.  Who's to say she didn't help her with that Egg too?

I really actively disliked Fleur though so perhaps I'm not being fair.
But, my overall impression is that she is vapid, shallow.  I share
Hermione's overall dislike of the girl (and, like Hermione, my dislike
of her has *nothing* to do with the fact that she flirts with Ron
occasionally either!  <g>).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  1 04:16:00 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Cluiss)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:16:00 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] WWII Analogy
Message-ID: <F6383sntGWIxd3SiSkC0002b46e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13210

After reading all of the "Blonde Hair" posts, I remembered that when I first 
joined the list, there were many posts about JKR and the posibility of WW2 
analogies.  I put 2 and 2 together... Nazis thought that blonde haired 
people were the Aryan race, and that these people were superior to the rest. 
  I am sure you have all heard this story before.  Except Hitler failed to 
acknowledge that the Aryans were a group of fairly light-skinned people who 
migrated from the fertile plain to India.  I assume she gives her own blonde 
characters the same character: they look like they should be wonderful, 
superior people considering they are from good breeding, etc, but they 
aren't.  I think JKR was mocking misconception, but I am probably reading 
too into it.

Signe Weasley

"You can never have too many Weasleys"

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  1 04:00:05 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:00:05 -0600
Subject: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
References: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKGEDCCAAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <3A9DC945.80DF29AD@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13211

Hi --

Monika Huebner wrote:

> > 2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or
> > vital to the plot
> > and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?
>
> I think it was completely gratuitous. And no, I confess that I
> wasn't that much upset about it. It bothered me because it
> was an unnecessary death that illustrated both Voldemort's
> and Wormtail's ruthlessness, but I wasn't really upset. I
> think I was too afraid that Sirius would die at the end of the
> book, so it was a minor issue to me...

I know I've said this before but .... I too was not all that shaken by
Cedric's death on my first read.  I really & truly was not convinced
that this was the much-hyped death that the reader would care about.  I
remained leery that Cedric was just a prelude or red herring.

Like Monika, I was very concerned for Sirius.  Especially when it was
revealed that there was a Dementor in the castle (taking care of Crouch
Jr.).  I was biting my nails, muttering "No ... not Sirius ... not
Sirius ... no" and dreading turning each page for fear that Sirius would
be given the Kiss or killed.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 04:16:43 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 04:16:43 -0000
Subject: Fleur's Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <3A9DC846.3FEF9BF@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97kifb+7sbk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13212

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
<snip>
> I disagree that the mere fact that she's the BeauxBatons Champion 
means
> she is *not* stupid.  What if she happens to be the most 
intelligent of
> the BeauxBatons bunch but isn't really all that bright?  

Er.... I don't think JKR, even considering the longstanding enmity 
across the Channel, would make the French all stupid. 

What if the
> Goblet of Fire doesn't really evaluate one's intelligence?  I don't 
see
> where we've any proof that intelligence is necessarily a critical 
aspect
> of being selected as a school champion.  And, as far as I can tell,
> Fleur is *not* depicted as being particularly bright.  

Yes, I agree that Fleur doesn't do anything extremely intelligent. 
Neither Krum nor Cedric are protrayed as being the Hermiones of their 
classes either. They must have a certain level of competence, 
however, to be champions, which probably means that Fleur isn't an 
airhead. I don't think Mme Maxime would have picked someone without 
any talent. 

<snip>
> But, my overall impression is that she is vapid, shallow.  

I thought she was unpleasant, rude, and shallow as well. She struck 
me as the sort who knows she's good-looking, and skates by on it. But 
these traits, while not incompatible with stupidity, do not 
necessarily indicate unintelligence. 

Charmian





From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  1 04:03:20 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:03:20 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Re: Shippers
References: <97k439+umii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9DCA08.B9893BBD@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13213

Hi --

optimistic_88 at msn.com wrote:

> I was wondering who are on what ships for this group? And do you see
> the relationships you are for are long or short term?

We just went through 2 big "shipping" debates since Christmas so if you
wanted to search through the Archives in Dec & January, you'd get a good
idea of who is associated with which ship.  They tend to come & go in
cycles (the shipping debates that is), and the no-shippers tend to groan
when they get started up again.  So ... I'll just suggest that you check
the Archives to satisfy your curiosity.  As soon as our FAQs are
uploaded, you can also check out the "Potential Romantic Pairings" FAQ
for arguments for & against each preferred pairing.

We also preface all shipping posts with SHIP so that people who hate
them can skip (similarly, fanfic related posts are to be labelled FF).

Penny
(Captain of the H/H Cruiseship)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kathleen at carr.org  Thu Mar  1 03:52:43 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:52:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shippers
Message-ID: <200103010422.f214MTS22702@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 13214

>I was wondering who are on what ships for this group? And do you see
>the relationships you are for are long or short term? <snip>
>So...........where are the shippers?
>~Kim B.


Hmmm. I saw this post and the term "can of worms" immediately sprang to 
mind...who's up for another round of shipper debates? ;)

Captain Kathy of the Good Ship R/H,
which is made of stronger stuff than some seem to think
and is not sinking anytime soon!




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Mar  1 04:32:54 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:32:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] It's Trelawney (filk)
References: <982924096.448.54607.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <004901c0a208$afd9d2a0$93c64b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13215

It's Trelawney

(To the tune of It's De-Lovely)

Dedicated to Angela Boyko

(AUTHOR'S NOTE:  The mysterious workings of the Inner Eye can no longer be
denied. After writing the first six lines of this filk two evenings ago, I
logged on HP4GU only to find the sublime "Ballad of Professor Trelawney," by
Angela Boyko - which again serves to demonstrate that the I.E. directs her
favorites in similar directions...)

Not up on Cole Porter? Try the following "Port" Key

http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/anything_goes.html

(THE SCENE: Gryffindor Common Room. Pro- and anti-Trelawney factions have
their say about Hogwarts' notorious Divination Professor)

(Enter LAVENDER BROWN AND PARVATI PATIL)

LB: The stairs are long and the ladder steep
But the metaphysics are awfully deep
BOTH: It's transcendent, it's tremendous, it's Trelawney

PP: She teaches how us to read tea leaves
To learn what the future has up its sleeves
BOTH: It's transcendent, it's tremendous, it's Trelawney

LB: When we enter her room, we are elated by her brand of perfume
And the rhythms of the grand celestial dance
Put us in a trance!

PP: When you gaze into her crystal ball the inner eye will reveal all
BOTH: It's transcendent, it's tremendous,
It's transfixing, it's translucent,
It's a treasure, it's tranquil'ty
It's terrific, it's Trelawney!

(Exit LAVENDER & PARVATI. Enter HARRY & RON, in a flippant mood)

RW: If into the future we would see
We must learn better to hold our tea
BOTH: It's trumpery, it's trifling, it's Trelawney

HP (laughing): That class never fails to entertain us
Now please, Ron, no jokes about Uranus
BOTH: It's trivial, it's a trinket, it's Trelawney

RW (pretending to gaze into a crystal ball):
As the future unfogs, I see a midget pursued by a gigantic dog
He was born 'neath the baleful planet of Saturn
Hence this pattern..

HP: In Divination to earn an "A"
I predict my death three times each day
BOTH: She's pretentious, she's prepost'rous,
She's too precious, she's a problem,
She's provincial, she's a prune
She's the Predictions Professor!

(Exit all, except HARRY, who alone ponders the matter more seriously)

With all her bangles and beads so odd
She seems no more than a blatant fraud
Is it trickery? Is it transient? Is it Trelawney?

She conjures portents from the vasty deep
In a room so warm that I fall asleep
Is it trendy? Is it triteness? Is it Trelawney?

Yet I still recall a day when a weird voice through her had its say
Which informed us that Peter, that Wormtail git
Would hightail it
And though she often seems absurd
It all came true, her every word
Of his treachery, of his travesty,
Of his treason as it triggered
His transgressions towards the triumph
Of our Travail, 'told Trelawney!

(Exit HARRY)

     - CMC






From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  1 04:10:42 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:10:42 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Viktor Krum
References: <200102270543.f1R5htC20080@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <3A9DCBC2.8CB22E5C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13216

Hi --

Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:

> OK, what do we think of Viktor?  Is he a good guy?  (Well, we know he
> has great taste in women at any rate!)  Is he, as some have suggested,
> just
> downright creepy?

I don't think his behavior is particularly creepy, and I think he
probably is a good guy.  I think this is particularly likely since
Hermione seems to be such a good judge of character.  I don't think it's
weird for him to have been interested in someone so much younger, and
yes, he does seem to have good taste in women!  The only thing about him
that I *do* find vaguely creepy are the descriptions of his physical
appearance.  It's not just that he's somewhat awkward & somewhat
unattractive.  It's more that his appearance is couched in such ...
creepy ... terms.  I don't feel like getting passages from GoF, but ...
that's my impression.

I also agree that he does not like his fame or being singled out.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kathleen at carr.org  Thu Mar  1 04:03:00 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:03:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Viktor Krum
Message-ID: <200103010432.f214WqS24180@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 13217

>I also agree that he does not like his fame or being singled out.
>Penny

Penny!  We agreed on something else!  Add it to the list (I think we're up to 
5 or 6 now!  Let's hear it for Inter-Ship Cooperation! :)

Captain Kathy
who is feeling very silly tonight




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  1 04:26:29 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:26:29 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fleur's Intelligence
References: <97kifb+7sbk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9DCF75.59825909@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13218

Hi again --

I should really lay off the typing soon ....

ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...>
> wrote:
> <snip>
> > I disagree that the mere fact that she's the BeauxBatons Champion
> means she is *not* stupid.  What if she happens to be the most
> intelligent of the BeauxBatons bunch but isn't really all that bright?
>
> Er.... I don't think JKR, even considering the longstanding enmity
> across the Channel, would make the French all stupid.

My point was really more that being School Champion does not necessarily
mean one is intelligent  -- see more below.  I wasn't suggesting that
JKR would make all the French students "stupid."  But, we don't know
anything about any of the Beaux Batons students other than Fleur.

> Yes, I agree that Fleur doesn't do anything extremely intelligent.
> Neither Krum nor Cedric are protrayed as being the Hermiones of their
> classes either. They must have a certain level of competence,
> however, to be champions, which probably means that Fleur isn't an
> airhead. I don't think Mme Maxime would have picked someone without
> any talent.

I don't think it's necessary to be a "Hermione" to be school champion.
None of the 4 seem to be on that level of academic achievement.
Dumbledore says that the Tasks were designed to test "their magical
prowess -- their daring -- their powers of deduction -- and, of course,
their ability to cope with danger."  Of the above, really only powers of
deduction requires mental agility.  Magical prowess could be just innate
ability after all.  Anyway .. bottom line is that I'm not convinced at
this point that Fleur is necessarily intelligent *just because* she was
selected as the Beaux Batons Champion.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu  Thu Mar  1 04:40:36 2001
From: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 04:40:36 -0000
Subject: wand error ... revised copy
In-Reply-To: <005f01c0a1d0$0d6a1760$8614a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <97kjs4+dt8h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13219

Here's the scan of the corrected text:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Publications/priori-
s.jpg

Be sure to paste the entire URL into your address window.

-Jim Flanagan

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> ok just call me stupid or blonde or both ... I have followed the 
links and then some. All I have come up with is the copy of the error 
version of the wand, not the corrected version. Can someone kindly 
send me the exact url of that page? My email address is nera at r... 
> 
> I would like to have both copies for reference sake. Both letters 
in the list archives lead to the error page, not the corrected 
version.\
> 
> Doreen who is still looking but not finding
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Shan't say nothing if you don't say, please," said Peeves in his 
annoying singsong voice. 
> "All right --- please."
> "NOTHING! Ha ha! Haaaaaa!"
> Peeves the Poltergeist, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  1 04:44:43 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:44:43 -0500
Subject: Mass. people
References: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFAELICCAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <003401c0a20a$5655a540$0159d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13220


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Mallett Jr" <wr7238 at worldnet.att.net>

> We
> are all anxious for November 16 to get here in Revere,Massachusetts!
Anyway
> time will show us where to look.

Hey there, where is Revere?  I'm in Uxbridge...we are thinking of some sort
of Mass get together sometime or other...Are you all interested?

email me at lrcjestes at earthlink.net  if you are...

carole







From summers.65 at osu.edu  Thu Mar  1 05:08:54 2001
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 00:08:54 -0500
Subject: Trailer sites
Message-ID: <v02140b20b6c389ba3da1@[140.254.113.133]>

No: HPFGUIDX 13221


For Net sites, www.darkhorizons.com has trailers a lot and as soon as
they're shown...they have some great LOTR trailers.

Lori


**************************************************
Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

     "Do you know why you're afraid when you're alone?"
                                --Vincent Gray

Last movie seen:  "Hollow Man"
Discman's spinning:  "Pleasantville" soundtrack
Nighttable:  "The List of 7" by Mark Frost
***************************************************





From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 05:44:42 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 05:44:42 -0000
Subject: Fleur's Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <3A9DCF75.59825909@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97knka+681e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13222

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
<snip>

> I don't think it's necessary to be a "Hermione" to be school 
champion.
> None of the 4 seem to be on that level of academic achievement.
> Dumbledore says that the Tasks were designed to test "their magical
> prowess -- their daring -- their powers of deduction -- and, of 
course,
> their ability to cope with danger."  Of the above, really only 
powers of
> deduction requires mental agility.  Magical prowess could be just 
innate
> ability after all.  Anyway .. bottom line is that I'm not convinced 
at
> this point that Fleur is necessarily intelligent *just because* she 
was
> selected as the Beaux Batons Champion.
> 

Yes, but I wasn't arguing that it meant that she was intelligent, I 
just said it argued against her being stupid. She could be simply 
mediocre mentally, while being above average in some other way. But 
what are the grounds for assuming Fleur's stupidity? (Refresh me, I 
haven't been looking at all the threads)

As for selection, it depends how much other factors play in the 
process. And plus there's the question of how intelligent someone 
must be to be considered "intelligent." But I'd argue that Mme Maxime 
chose Fleur because Fleur was above the rest of the students in some 
way, and would probably not want someone stupid to be the champion. 
So not stupid doesn't necessarily mean intelligent, and vice versa. 

Charmian




From rainesj at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  1 06:30:04 2001
From: rainesj at hotmail.com (Justin Raines)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:30:04 -0000
Subject: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97kq9c+4ke3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13223

2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or vital to 
the plot
and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?


I was upset by Cedric's Death.  He was a fair, kind and good-natured 
person.  He was always kind to Harry.  In POA, for instance, after 
Harry passed out because of the Dementors and Gryffindor lost the 
Quidditch match as a result, Cedric wanted to to have a rematch.  In 
GOF, Harry and Cedric helped each of the tasks.  I believe that their 
experience at the end of the maze would probably have made them good 
friends, if Cedric wouldn't have been killed.  

I also think that Cedric's death was gratuitous for Voldemort's 
character development.  It seemed to me to do little to further the 
story except to reiterate what everyone already knows, that Voldemort 
is a heartless killer.  Think of what he said when he wanted Cedric 
killed...he said, "kill the spare."  Cedric didn't matter to him one 
way or the other, so it was easier just to kill him.

I do, however, believe that Cedric's death was vital to the story.  
Chapter 32 in general gave the story a darker and more sinister 
tone.  It was necessary for JKR to have an innocent, minor character 
to die to set what I believe will be the tone for the next book.  




From hermitchick at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 07:25:10 2001
From: hermitchick at yahoo.com (Persephone)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:25:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: OT:Newby, Hello!
Message-ID: <20010301072510.38534.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13224

Hi,

Hello, my name's Kate, or Kathryn, or Persephone to
some, I'm 17, and obsessed with HP.  I've been lurking
one this list for... a while now, and thought I might
say hi, and introduce myself.  I'm usually present in
the Sunday chats for anyone that frequents them.  I've
come to the conclusion that it's impossible to read
all the messages on this list, to damn many!  I have
nothing better to do at 2am.

I probably won't post much, I'm a member of over 115
MLs at present, and never really post much anywhere. 
I own a couple of MLs, a HP slash list dedicated to
Harry/Draco,
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Harry_and_Draco) for
anyone who's interested.  Although I have a high
dislike of yahoo at the moment.  I miss eGroups, and
Onelist before that.

I'm working on a fic at the moment, het not slash,
which would be a first!  I've never actually wrote a
het fic before, which is strange I know. 

I have a question: Did the books say what Lily's (or
Lilly?) maden name was?  I've heard Evens, but I'm not
sure, and too lazy to look through the books myself! 
Any help would be appricated.

-Kate, god I ramble a lot!



=====
"So we reach into the raging chaos, and we pluck some small glittering thing, and we cling to it, and tell ourselves it has meaning, and that the world is good, and we are not evil and we will all go home in the end."
- Lestat, "Tale of the Body Thief" by Anne Rice

Persephone's Lair: http://geocities.com/hermitchick
Harry and Draco Archive: http://geocities.com/harry_and_draco

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From andeinmn at aol.com  Thu Mar  1 07:31:43 2001
From: andeinmn at aol.com (andeinmn at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 02:31:43 EST
Subject: How I found HP
Message-ID: <de.10df63eb.27cf54df@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13225

Doreen wrote:

>   He also likes to tease me that "his" copy of GoF is sitting among "my" 
> other three HP books on my shelf. Which makes me wonder how many of you 
were 
> introduced to HP by your children? Or how did you first get interested in 
> reading HP?

I have a friend whose kids received the first three books for Christmas a 
year ago.  When I had knee surgery last March she loaned them to me to help 
pass the time during my recovery.  I must have read them three times through 
in the week I had them!

When GoF came out I had arranged to borrow it from another friend who had 
pre-ordered it from Amazon.  I had this INSANE notion that I could wait the 
day or two it would take her to read it.   But the closer it got to midnight 
the more I knew I couldn't wait even another minute and so found myself in my 
car, driving through a nasty electrical storm, to be among the first in line. 
 Naturally, once I had my own copy of GoF, I simply could not rest until I 
had 1-3 as well!

Andrea



From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  1 07:37:55 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:37:55 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT:Newby, Hello!
References: <20010301072510.38534.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00fb01c0a222$89d80f80$5814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13226


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Persephone 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 1:25 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT:Newby, Hello!


  I have a question: Did the books say what Lily's (or
  Lilly?) maden name was?  I've heard Evens, but I'm not
  sure, and too lazy to look through the books myself! 
  Any help would be appricated.

  -Kate, god I ramble a lot!
  Hi Kate!

  In the Scholastic interview with JK Rowlings on  October 16, 2000, she was asked:

  Q. Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? 

  A. Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally). 

  Doreen 





  =====
  "So we reach into the raging chaos, and we pluck some small glittering thing, and we cling to it, and tell ourselves it has meaning, and that the world is good, and we are not evil and we will all go home in the end."
  - Lestat, "Tale of the Body Thief" by Anne Rice

  Persephone's Lair: http://geocities.com/hermitchick
  Harry and Draco Archive: http://geocities.com/harry_and_draco

  __________________________________________________
  Do You Yahoo!?
  Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/


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From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Mar  1 07:55:29 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:55:29 -0800
Subject: Only Child - Lily - cat,rat,dog - JKR's PA - wizarding HIV -  Harry/Cho/Cedric
Message-ID: <3A9E0070.AB003362@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13227

Btw, I LOVED Randy's Sirius character sketch!

Whoever recently pointed out that we are not shown any spouses or
children for Hogwarts professors also pointed out that it seems like
many characters are only children. I think, with that wizarding long
lifespan and slower aging, that witches probably stay fertile into their
60s, thus could have two or three only children -- that is, the one
child isn't born until the previous child has grown up and left home.

***
Persephone asked: "Did the books say what Lily's (or Lilly?) maiden name
was?  I've heard Evens,"

Hi, Persephone, good to see you post! The books don't say what Lily's
(single L) maiden name was, but someone asked in one of JKR's on-line
chats, and she said "Evans".

***
Marcius Caius Coriolanus mentioned the cat, the rat, and Lovell our dog
rhyme and quoted someone saying: "I can't remember where I read about
this bit of graffiti,"

I would be willing to bet an entire dollar that he read it in THE
DAUGHTER OF TIME by Josephine Tey, the book clearing Richard III's name
disguised as a modern detective novel.

***
Nick used the following sig: "(the groups direct link to Fiddy, PA for
JKR)."

Does that mean that you found her address that you had lost? Snail mail
or e-mail?

***
Joanne Collins asked:
> So do you think HIV/AIDS would be a concern in the wizarding
> world, or one of those muggle problems?

I personally believe that the wizarding folk not only have easy and
reliable contraceptive charms (and conception / healthy pregnancy / easy
childbirth charms), they also have easy and reliable anti-STD charms.
Just remember to cast the right pair of charms and no need to bother
with condoms, spermicides, side-effects of contraceptive hormones (the
Pill, Norplant, etc)!

I can argue for their great skill with sex appeal, fertility,
anti-fertility, anti-impotence spells, as those are the things that
magic was, historically, first invented for -- invented before chipped
stone tools, I am sure.

I can't use the same argument to argue for anti-STD spells, as it seems
that no one even thought of trying to prevent catching STDs until early
modern times. And if they had general anti-coming-down-with-a-disease
spells, why did all the students catch a rheum in CoS and have to be
treated with Pepper-Up Potion? However, CURING diseases is something
that mages have been working on for a lo-oo-oong time.

***
Gwen wrote:
> How many people have had the experience of a bad break-up,
> only to see one's ex with someone new soon afterward (before
> getting over the old relationship)? How many people were sainted
> enough NOT to feel some hostility and exaggerate the inadequacy
> of the new flame--whether it's a comment on looks, personality,
> or fashion sense?

Being turned down by someone on whom one has a crush is not the same as
a bad breakup. I've had experience of both. For the former, see my reply
to the next paragraph. For the latter -- I suppose you would consider it
commenting on the inadequacy of the new flame when one worries that the
new flame is so pretty and so nice and doesn't know what the man is
really like and he's going to abuse her like he did me?

Katie Kearns wrote:
> But I have a question for you: if the genders of everyone were
> switched --  Harry-ette is thinking mean thoughts about
> Cedric-ette because she's going to the dance with Mr. Cho
> .... would you consider the scene homoerotic? ;)

Oh, yes. That one's easier for me to see because, being female, I am
much more familiar with being in Harriet's position than in Harry's.
There have sure been plenty of times in my life when some madly
attractive man/boy turned me down and then spent the party with some
gorgeous (and often charming, intelligent, talented, and kind)
woman/girl holding his hand or sitting on his lap... And plenty of times
that I've spent the party surreptitiously staring at them, at least as
much for aesthetic pleasure of appreciating both their beauty as for the
masochism of whipping my heart with what I was deprived of having (him)
and what I was deprived of being (her). If the girl who won out isn't
pretty, I'm more likely to find some other man/boy to ogle...

I'm accustomed to explaining to people that appreciating beauty is not
always sexual. I tell them: "I like to look at beautiful men, beautiful
sunsets, beautiful flowers, and beautiful women -- are you trying to
tell me that I am a repressed sunset-philiac?" However, just because it
isn't sexual doesn't mean it isn't erotic. Oh, God, I've been wondering
how to explain what the difference is and somehow it has gotten past my
bedtime and I have to go to work tomorrow!!!
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  1 07:59:54 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:59:54 -0600
Subject: from Middle-earth to Hogwarts 
Message-ID: <011301c0a225$9a732160$5814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13228

To help pass the time from now until book five, I picked up a copy of JRR Tolkien's, The Hobbit, to read again. I read the preface (I think that is the right word) and I could not help but to compare what Peter Beagle said about Middle-earth to the way that I feel about Hogwarts and Harry Potter.      
 I thought I would share it with you all. It just sums everything up so nicely.

"... lovers of the Middle-earth want to go there. I would, myself, like a shot.
For in the end, it is Middle-earth and its dwellers that we love, not Tolkein's considerable gifts in showing it all to us. I said once that the world he charts was there long before him, and I still believe it. He is a great enough magician to tap our most common nightmares, daydreams, adn twilight fancies, but he never invented them either: he found them a place to live, a green alternative to each day's madness here in a poisoned world. We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers -- thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses. Let us last praise the colonizers of dreams."
Peter S. Beagle
Watsonville, California
14 July 1973

Doreen


 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Thu Mar  1 10:00:07 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 05:00:07 EST
Subject: HP Trailer
Message-ID: <60.c0913e0.27cf77a7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13229

Hi all

The BBC are planning to publish the trailer on their Childrens News website 
(Newsround) at around 2pm today (that's 4 hours from the time this message is 
posted).

See this page for a link to the trailer:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/

Nick.



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  1 11:53:56 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:53:56 -0000
Subject: Harry and Cedric (was Envy/Respect)
In-Reply-To: <3A9DC465.B5666C79@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97ld8k+2jut@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13230

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Gwen said:
> 
> > It's also ironic that Cedric's death means Harry will probably never get
> > Cho. Regardless of how "in love" or "not in love" she was with Cedric (and
> > personally I think not so much), her feelings toward him will always remain
> > unresolved. She will not be able to distinguish how she felt before he died
> > from how she felt when he did not come back, and Harry did. IMO, they will
> > probably become friends, and maybe down the line lovers, but nothing will
> > happen on that front for a while.
> >
> I'm wondering how you square your first sentence with your last point.
> I'm in the camp that believes that there's too much tragedy for any
> Harry/Cho romance now, so I agree with your first point.  But, it seems
> unlikely to me that they would be lovers down the road ... the "too much
> tragedy" thing will always be there.  I do think they might become
> friends though.
> 
Hmmm... too much tragedy to become lovers down the road ... because girl's first love and 
boy's friend died ... strikes a chord.. familiar in a lop-sided kind of way.. . Por.. 
no..Par ..yeah - Paradigm of Indeci.. no.. Uncertainty maybe?. Thats it - Paradigm of 
Uncertainty! Its quite a well-known fan fiction, Penny, you should read it. Who knows - you 
might like it.. <wink>

Naama




From prince_galrion at yahoo.no  Thu Mar  1 11:57:13 2001
From: prince_galrion at yahoo.no (prince_galrion at yahoo.no)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:57:13 -0000
Subject: Fleur's Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <3A9DC846.3FEF9BF@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97ldep+pjr5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13231

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
[snip]
> Even if Crouch hadn't stunned her and she had reached the Cup 
> first, would the points she might have garnered been enough to 
> propel her into being the TriWizard Champion?  I don't think so.  
[snip]

It would be enough, regardless of how many points each contestant 
had.  Getting to the cup first would not result in earning a number 
of points, it would result in winning the Triwizard Tournament.  
Points earned in the previous tasks were only to determine the order 
in which the champions were allowed to start, and the time between 
them, thus meaning that the participant placed first after the 2nd 
task would have a better chance of getting to the cup first than 
no.2, and so forth.  The combined event in Nordic skiing works much 
the same way, even if contestants there are spared from facing 
Hungarian horntails and blastended skrewts (sp?). (The combined event 
combines ski-jimping and cross-country skiing.  Contestants first 
have a skijumping-contest, the point-results of which determines the 
starting-order and how many seconds there are between each contestant 
for the cross-country race.  In the race, it is the first participant 
to reach the finish-line who wins, even if they don't all start at 
the same time.)




From optimistic_88 at msn.com  Thu Mar  1 12:20:24 2001
From: optimistic_88 at msn.com (optimistic_88 at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 12:20:24 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Re: Shippers
In-Reply-To: <3A9DCA08.B9893BBD@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97leq8+i6t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13232

Ok, thank you! I'll be sure to check it out! H/H! Go You! Thank you 
once again.
~Kim B.
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> optimistic_88 at m... wrote:
> 
> > I was wondering who are on what ships for this group? And do you 
see
> > the relationships you are for are long or short term?
> 
> We just went through 2 big "shipping" debates since Christmas so if 
you
> wanted to search through the Archives in Dec & January, you'd get a 
good
> idea of who is associated with which ship.  They tend to come & go 
in
> cycles (the shipping debates that is), and the no-shippers tend to 
groan
> when they get started up again.  So ... I'll just suggest that you 
check
> the Archives to satisfy your curiosity.  As soon as our FAQs are
> uploaded, you can also check out the "Potential Romantic Pairings" 
FAQ
> for arguments for & against each preferred pairing.
> 
> We also preface all shipping posts with SHIP so that people who hate
> them can skip (similarly, fanfic related posts are to be labelled 
FF).
> 
> Penny
> (Captain of the H/H Cruiseship)
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Thu Mar  1 11:48:40 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 22:48:40 +1100
Subject: Dream casting for HP and OT: Winona Ryder (was: Little Women) 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010301224840.007e1b20@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 13233

This is more OT than not, but there is one *very* vaguely relevant part.
Maybe this should be moved to OTChatter? I will go and sign up there ASAP.

>Well, I like Noni (I'm a sucker for those big eyes I guess), and think she
>made a much better Jo than June Allison; 

Actually, my favourite Jo is Katharine Hepburn in the old b&w version, and
I don't think anyone can hold a candle to Kate in anything. Kate *is* the
Jo I saw while growing up (and I actually didn't see her version till I was
a legal adult).

The dream casting would be to get Kate into the HP movies somewhere,
somehow, someway, but I think she has retired now, and there's also the
British thing. But wouldn't she make a wonderful older witch?

but then I'm a Gen-X-er, and so
>liking Noni is almost required by law.  :)

I think I'm a Gen-X-er too. I like her in some of her movies (I think she
was brilliant in The Age Of Innocence and I adored Heathers), but when
she's not good, she's *really* not good. Actually, she wasn't awful as Jo,
just not right, in my eyes. For a movie no one was good in (so it's not
really her fault) try Autumn In New York.

>(Oh dear, I've just made a good argument
>against expecting much from the Harry Potter movie, haven't I?)

Er...yes, you have. Still, I think, if we don't expect much and it turns
out to be really wonderful, then we'll be pleasantly surprised. If it turns
out to be average, we'll be unshocked, and if it turns out bad, we won't be
surprised at all (actually, I think it's more likely to be average than
anything else).

>The only movie adaptation of a children's book I've really liked is
>_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_, but then in that
>case the original author wrote the screenplay!

Well, that would probably help. But isn't JKR really involved in the movie
process? That can only be good for the movie(s?), can't it?

I have to say, I agree on Willy Wonka. Wonderful movie.

Joanne.



From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  1 13:22:04 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:22:04 -0600
Subject: FF/SHIP: PoU and Harry/Cho (was Harry and Cedric)
References: <97ld8k+2jut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9E4CFC.DC3485ED@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13234

Hi --

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...>
> wrote:
> > Gwen said:
> >
> > > It's also ironic that Cedric's death means Harry will probably
> never get Cho. Regardless of how "in love" or "not in love" she was
> with Cedric (and personally I think not so much), her feelings toward
> him will always remain > unresolved. She will not be able to
> distinguish how she felt before he died> from how she felt when he did
> not come back, and Harry did. IMO, they will> probably become friends,
> and maybe down the line lovers, but nothing will happen on that front
> for a while.
> > >
> > I said: I'm wondering how you square your first sentence with your
> last point. I'm in the camp that believes that there's too much
> tragedy for any Harry/Cho romance now, so I agree with your first
> point.  But, it seems> unlikely to me that they would be lovers down
> the road ... the "too much tragedy" thing will always be there.  I do
> think they might become
> > friends though.
> >

Naama said:

> Hmmm... too much tragedy to become lovers down the road ... because
> girl's first love and boy's friend died ... strikes a chord.. familiar
> in a lop-sided kind of way.. . Por.. no..Par ..yeah - Paradigm of
> Indeci.. no.. Uncertainty maybe?. Thats it - Paradigm of Uncertainty!
> Its quite a well-known fan fiction, Penny, you should read it. Who
> knows - you
> might like it.. <wink>

There are some fairly profound differences between PoU and a Harry/Cho
fling down the road.  First, "girl's first love and boy's friend" -- is
that all Ron is to Hermione & Harry?  I was under the impression that he
was a *best* friend of them both.  Cedric, by contrast, is possibly
Cho's "first love" but he's really not Harry's "friend" at all.  Harry
regards him as a rival for most of GoF.  They've reached an uneasy
truce/compromise and then Cedric dies -- Harry will blame himself for
that.  Cho may, on some level, also blame him for that.  I won't give
away PoU plot details (although it's in Ch 1) but there is a similarity
of guilt reactions.  However, the *huge* distinction is that Harry &
Hermione are also *best* friends (in canon and in PoU).  They just
continue to solidify an already-existing friendship in PoU.  Cho is in
no way a friend to Harry.  They would have to develop a friendship, and
it would need to progress to the "best friends" level for there to be
similarity to PoU.  Cho becoming a part of the Trio and a "best friend"
to Harry seems pretty unlikely to me.  If they'd had something more than
a passing acquaintance when Cedric died, it might be possible.  But, I
don't see how they can, at this point, establish much more than a better
friendship -- a friendship that may grow slowly over the years (but a
friendship that will probably always have a slight reserve due to the
guilt factor IMO).

Sorry, Naama -- I don't see any real similarities.  :--)

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar  1 13:43:49 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:43:49 -0000
Subject: a harry-reference in the NY Times (no, penny, it's not a bestseller list thing)
Message-ID: <97ljml+8mp5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13235

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/01/technology/01NEXT.html

HARRY POTTER, the star of the children's book series, has a 
Marauder's Map, with tiny moving symbols that show the location of 
everyone in his school. It is very handy when he is out late at night 
solving mysteries and wants to avoid bumping into enemies.

Now scientists have devised a real map that has a lot in common with 
Harry's magic one. Visitors can see it at the AT&T Laboratories in 
Cambridge, England, perhaps not far from Harry's fictional home, 
somewhere in England.

There, in a three-story, 10,000-square-foot space, AT&T staff members 
have developed a constantly updated map that can track people with 
ultrasound signals as they move through the building. It pinpoints 
their locations within inches, as long as they are wearing a 
transmitter the size of a key chain.






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  1 13:44:58 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:44:58 -0000
Subject: Fleur's Intelligence w/a Quidditch aside
In-Reply-To: <3A9DCF75.59825909@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <97ljoq+636b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13236

Penny wrote:

>Even if Crouch hadn't stunned her
>and she had reached the Cup first, would the points she might have
>garnered been enough to propel her into being the TriWizard Champion? 
>I don't think so.  

Actually, I'm pretty sure the rules were that whoever touched the 
Triwizard Cup first won, not only the the 3rd task, but the 
tournament.  Kinda dumb if you ask me (like having the Snitch be 15 
times the value of a goal*), but I think that was it.  They 
handicapped the champions according to points, and then whoever got to 
the cup first was to win.

Anyway, back to Fleur...


> I don't think it's necessary to be a "Hermione" to be school 
champion.
> None of the 4 seem to be on that level of academic achievement.
> Dumbledore says that the Tasks were designed to test "their magical
> prowess -- their daring -- their powers of deduction -- and, of 
course,
> their ability to cope with danger."  Of the above, really only 
powers of
> deduction requires mental agility.  Magical prowess could be just 
innate
> ability after all.  Anyway .. bottom line is that I'm not convinced 
at
> this point that Fleur is necessarily intelligent *just because* she 
was
> selected as the Beaux Batons Champion.

All good points.  What is intelligence anyway?  "Innate ability" or 
something else?  And can one be extremely talented at magic but 
downright dumb in other ways?  I'm sure.  But if the original question 
is "Does Fleur fulfill a particular stereotype of blondes, e.g. a lack 
of intelligence," then I'd have to say that looking at the big picture 
of Fleur, we can take into account her evident magical talent (and 
hard work and all the other things that presumably go into being that 
good a witch) and say No, she really doesn't.  

If the original question is, can we add Fleur to the list of blond 
characters who are unsavory in one way or another, the answer seems to 
be a clear Yes.  She certainly isn't going to win any popularity 
prizes on this list (though she grew on me, as she did on Harry).

Amy Z

*Actually, this isn't quite so dumb a rule (the Quidditch one) if 
rankings are by points rather than by wins and losses.  In the 
intra-Hogwarts Q. tournament, it's overall points that matter, so that 
the point difference made by a couple of goals could mean the Cup 
(this is what happens the year Gry. wins the Cup).  If it were just 
total wins that won a house the Cup--whoever wins three matches wins 
it--the Chasers and Keeper would be almost irrelevant, and in fact, a 
good strategy would be to ignore offense entirely and put the entire 
team to the task of backing up their Seeker and interfering with the 
other team's Seeker.  I wonder how it works in the national and 
international Quidditch leagues.  Maybe QTA will tell us (ordered mine 
last night! <g>)

-------------------------------------------------
  "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye
Moody," said Mrs. Weasley sternly.
  "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he,"
said Fred quietly, as Mrs. Weasley left the room.  
"Birds of a feather."
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
-------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  1 14:01:07 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:01:07 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Re: Shippers
In-Reply-To: <97leq8+i6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97lkn3+plei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13237

Hi, Kim!  Check out the Polls section too.  You can vote for as many 
ships as you like (but you can only vote once for any given 
ship...unless you register under several names! <g>).  There is an 
all-important "other" option for those opting for such ships as 
Hedwig/Errol, Hagrid/Goyle, and Lupin/yourself.

;-)
Amy Z

----------------------------------------
 "We don't send people to Azkaban 
 just for blowing up their aunts!"
       -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
----------------------------------------




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Thu Mar  1 09:12:23 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:12:23 EST5EDT
Subject: Movie trailer...I love it!
Message-ID: <A6DDA877A8@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13238

I've watched it four or five times already (you know...I should do 
some work, now that I think about it) and I LOVE it!!!!!!!

Alan looks INCREDIBLE as Snape...that smug look of Hermione's 
is PERFECT....I'm in love with this trailer.  And now I can't wait to 
see the movie even more.  ARGH!  I have no patience for this kind 
of thing!!!!!
Rachel Bray

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From wings909 at aol.com  Thu Mar  1 14:15:40 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:15:40 EST
Subject: Just saw the trailer!
Message-ID: <dd.10ddaa32.27cfb38c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13239

Just saw the trailer, I'm going to try and not give any spoilers, but it 
might be a good idea to watch this at home.  LOL, I was determined not to 
leave for class until I saw it, and it was pretty darn good.  I got a little 
overexcited when I saw Snape though,  I threw my hands in the air and yelled 
"SNAPE!" would have been terribly embarassing if I did that at work....


Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From saitaina at wizzards.net  Thu Mar  1 14:19:24 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 06:19:24 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie trailer...I love it!
References: <A6DDA877A8@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <001d01c0a25a$9ed21ba0$234e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13240

And just where did you get to see it love?

Saitaina
*****



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wings909 at aol.com  Thu Mar  1 14:22:17 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:22:17 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie trailer...I love it!
Message-ID: <86.7873512.27cfb519@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13241

They're at harrypotter.com or harrypotter.co.uk, both have them.  Doesn't 
take too long to download either, which is good if you're like me and happen 
to have a sucky internet connection.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From saitaina at wizzards.net  Thu Mar  1 14:27:27 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 06:27:27 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie trailer...I love it!
References: <86.7873512.27cfb519@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002801c0a25b$c241f500$234e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13242

Thanks for the info love, easier then waiting for certain sites to put the stupid thing up.

Saitaina
*****
-From: "The Dark Lord's Servant?"

Sirius was standing amid a gaggle of James's female cousins, sans shirt and flexing his muscles. The girls fawned over him, complimenting his hard pecs. Peter sighed when he saw this and immediately changed course, knowing that Sirius was likely to blast him from here to tomorrow for interrupting the drool fest. Peter wandered around groups of party goers, hands in his pockets, feeling more and more helpless as time moved on. Even the arrival of Remus didn't boost his spirits. Although his lover was concerned with his behavior, he was more interested in telling James and Sirius all about his latest adventure. Finally Peter pretty much lost it. As the other guests gathered around James, Lilly and Harry to open Harry's presents, Peter cleared his throat and yelled out. "I'm working for Lord Voldemort!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar  1 14:35:07 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:35:07 -0000
Subject: trailer is up
Message-ID: <97lmmr+3ibb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13243

at the wb site - http://www.harrypotter.com

I need to see it again, a dozen more times, before I comment....

GO WATCH IT!




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Thu Mar  1 14:39:52 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 06:39:52 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer is up
References: <97lmmr+3ibb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003101c0a25d$7b242b00$234e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13244

Wish I could....keeps not connecting on my end.  *pouts and glares at her computer about to kick it*

Saitaina
*****



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Thu Mar  1 09:38:47 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:38:47 EST5EDT
Subject: Yes!!!  Snape!!
Message-ID: <A74E2D40FE@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13245

I AM at work and I gasped when they showed Alan.  Then I burst  
into uncontrollable laughter.  Several people came by and I had to 
play it over again so they could see it.  I'm rather embarrassed now 
because all the talk about me lusting after a long haired old man.  
Ha ha.

Darn it....I KNEW this would happen when it was announced Alan 
took the part.  

That last shot of Harry's smile is priceless.  Absolutely priceless.

Rachel Bray

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar  1 14:42:18 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:42:18 -0000
Subject: Yes!!!  Snape!!
In-Reply-To: <A74E2D40FE@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <97ln4a+u41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13246

s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
f
o
r
t
h
e
t
r
a
i
l
e
r



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> I AM at work and I gasped when they showed Alan.  Then I burst  
> into uncontrollable laughter. 

I just gasped. He does look *good* (and I am *not* a snape fan - but 
I do adore Rickman...)

And yes, cassie, rhysenn, etc., - they did lighten the hair of the 
boy playing draco (personally, I think he looks fine!)

And I loved hermione's expression (and the frizziness of her hair) 
and want to note, most prominently, that if there's that many kids in 
the gryffindor-only transfiguration class, then there are 1000 kids 
in the school...but I'm waiting for someone with more time than me to 
count the number of people in the Great Hall, add an additional 13 
percent to cover the Ickle Firsties...and tell us the correct number. 

I'm going to go watch it again....


 Several people came by and I had to 
> play it over again so they could see it.  I'm rather embarrassed 
now 
> because all the talk about me lusting after a long haired old man.  
> Ha ha.
> 
> Darn it....I KNEW this would happen when it was announced Alan 
> took the part.  
> 
> That last shot of Harry's smile is priceless.  Absolutely priceless.
> 
> Rachel Bray
> 
> "Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
> in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
> and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
>  - Ron Weasley




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  1 14:33:54 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:33:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer is up
References: <97lmmr+3ibb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c601c0a25c$a510b380$0159d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13247

Its so tiny!  Is anyone else getting it in that little box?  It looks so
cool!

carole

----- Original Message -----
From: <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 9:35 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer is up


> at the wb site - http://www.harrypotter.com
>
> I need to see it again, a dozen more times, before I comment....
>
> GO WATCH IT!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
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consult our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @
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>
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> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>





From ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Mar  1 14:52:49 2001
From: ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com (Erich)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:52:49 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer is up
References: <97lmmr+3ibb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001201c0a25f$49801ee0$3b82d2cc@rochester.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13248

It's awesome, I was wondering if they were going to do something about making Hagrid so big......I think it's going to be very good.
Now I'll have to drag a few of my nieces and nephews along with me when it comes out.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 9:35 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer is up


  at the wb site - http://www.harrypotter.com

  I need to see it again, a dozen more times, before I comment....

  GO WATCH IT!


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 

        Click here for Classmates.com 
       

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  Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From optimistic_88 at msn.com  Thu Mar  1 14:57:44 2001
From: optimistic_88 at msn.com (optimistic_88 at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:57:44 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Re: Shippers
In-Reply-To: <97lkn3+plei@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97lo18+bbi3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13249

Hello *waves* OK, thank you. I'll check that out!
~Kim "Don't hate me just cause I'm gorgeous." B.~
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Hi, Kim!  Check out the Polls section too.  You can vote for as 
many 
> ships as you like (but you can only vote once for any given 
> ship...unless you register under several names! <g>).  There is an 
> all-important "other" option for those opting for such ships as 
> Hedwig/Errol, Hagrid/Goyle, and Lupin/yourself.
> 
> ;-)
> Amy Z
> 
> ----------------------------------------
>  "We don't send people to Azkaban 
>  just for blowing up their aunts!"
>        -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> ----------------------------------------




From andrea at noembromation.com.br  Thu Mar  1 15:01:35 2001
From: andrea at noembromation.com.br (andrea at noembromation.com.br)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:01:35 -0000
Subject: trailer!!! (spoilers abound)
Message-ID: <97lo8f+95qi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13250

I can't get enough of it, just can't get enough of it! When I finish 
typing this, I'll go try to find someone with a *good* Internet 
connection so that I can watch it like it's supposed to be watched.

Questions: That scene with the trio screaming, then running away, 
which one is it? I thought it might be the one when they first saw 
Fluffy (the "Midnight Duel"), but then Neville should be with them, 
and they should be wearing pajamas...

I just *love* Hermione's expressions! She looks perfect, IMO. Dan's 
looking fine as well, his smile in the last scene is really sweet. 
I'm not so convinced about Ron/Rupert, though. And Draco looks ok, 
though not as cute as we would expect.

AAAAhh!! Gotta see it again!

Andrea




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Thu Mar  1 15:05:51 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:05:51 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer is up
References: <97lmmr+3ibb@eGroups.com> <00c601c0a25c$a510b380$0159d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <004d01c0a261$1c15ebe0$234e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13251

Oh my god, oh my god, OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!

I am now in love with Thomas Felton...and we won't mention how icky that is but OH MY GOD!  The rest of the trailer was quite good too....I now have to go re-read SS until Nov.

Saitaina


*****
-From: "The Dark Lord's Servant?"

Sirius was standing amid a gaggle of James's female cousins, sans shirt and flexing his muscles. The girls fawned over him, complimenting his hard pecs. Peter sighed when he saw this and immediately changed course, knowing that Sirius was likely to blast him from here to tomorrow for interrupting the drool fest. Peter wandered around groups of party goers, hands in his pockets, feeling more and more helpless as time moved on. Even the arrival of Remus didn't boost his spirits. Although his lover was concerned with his behavior, he was more interested in telling James and Sirius all about his latest adventure. Finally Peter pretty much lost it. As the other guests gathered around James, Lilly and Harry to open Harry's presents, Peter cleared his throat and yelled out. "I'm working for Lord Voldemort!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From margdean at erols.com  Thu Mar  1 15:18:11 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:18:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How I found HP
References: <de.10df63eb.27cf54df@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A9E6833.7C8DDF28@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13252

Doreen wrote:

> Which makes me wonder how many of you were 
> introduced to HP by your children? Or how did you first get interested in 
> reading HP?

First a few lines of introduction, since I'm new to the list:  my
name is Margaret Dean, I'm a 44-year-old stay-at-home mom and
freelance proofreader.  I live in the little old Victorian
(mostly) town of Port Deposit, Maryland, with husband Rob and
sons Norman (11) and William (7).

The whole family enjoys the Harry Potter books, which we
discovered a couple of years ago while on vacation in Canada. 
(This is why we have one paperback copy of "Philosopher's Stone"
[sic] while all our other copies -- including one of "Sorcerer's
Stone" -- are U.S. hardcovers.)  I'd heard something about the
books, so when we were poking around a bookstore looking for
something to read, I pointed that one out to Norman, mentioning
that I'd heard good things about it and he might like to try it. 
He was agreeable, so we bought the book.

Over the course of the next few days he read it four or five
times.  This is generally a good sign.  Then he started to read
it out loud to the rest of us.  His father and I (longtime
fantasy readers) got interested . . .  And here we are.  So I
guess you'd say Norman and I both helped each other with the
introduction!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  1 15:18:33 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:18:33 -0000
Subject: tech help needed!
Message-ID: <97lp89+1qt4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13253

Whether I watch the wee little box on the WB site or get it from the 
BBC Newsround site (Carole: that's the way to see it big), I'm getting 
the trailer in bits and pieces--the sound rolls fine but the video is 
a bunch of stills.  Different stills each time, so that if I watch it 
all day I might eventually get the idea, but it's a tad frustrating.  
I know this is probably just my poky modem (I think it comes of living 
in the sticks; I only connect at 28 bps even though I have a 56k 
modem), but can any of you computer wizards and witches out there 
help?

Draco looks incredible!  Ditto Harry in the last shot!  Haven't seen 
Snape, Ron or Hermione except the first time.

Amy Z





From morine10 at aol.com  Thu Mar  1 15:22:39 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:22:39 -0000
Subject: Trailer 
In-Reply-To: <A74E2D40FE@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <97lpfv+g13b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13254

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> That last shot of Harry's smile is priceless.  Absolutely priceless.


Oh, I have to agree - that smile is absolutely priceless.  Also, 
Draco looks a lot like I pictured him and Alan as Snape looks 
fantastic.  I love the look Hermione gives to Ron and I just cannot 
wait to see flying and Quidditch!  :)

-Mo







From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Thu Mar  1 15:29:46 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:29:46 -0000
Subject: Trailer
Message-ID: <97lpta+bj12@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13255

Oh baby.
Following a marathon nine and half meg download over a 56k modem at 
peak rate. I saw it. Um wow. I counted about 60-80 students at each 
table in the great hall incidentally which gives about 350 odd 
students (adding first years). Umm. What to say... The music sounded 
a bit generic, so I would imagine that John Williams has not finished 
the actual score yet and what I heard on the trailer won't appear in 
the film.
Little, details, not much out of order, except that Mr Dursley was 
holding a shotgun not a rifle and the walls of the hut on the rock 
were stone not wood.

Ummm, well wow. It was good.



Dai




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 15:30:26 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:30:26 -0000
Subject: Trailer
In-Reply-To: <97lpfv+g13b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97lpui+noqk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13256

I can't make it load! Grrr. And all these comments are making me very 
impatient. !!!!

HEather M.


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morine10 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> > That last shot of Harry's smile is priceless.  Absolutely 
priceless.
> 
> 
> Oh, I have to agree - that smile is absolutely priceless.  Also, 
> Draco looks a lot like I pictured him and Alan as Snape looks 
> fantastic.  I love the look Hermione gives to Ron and I just cannot 
> wait to see flying and Quidditch!  :)
> 
> -Mo




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Thu Mar  1 10:35:11 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:35:11 EST5EDT
Subject: How I found Harry Potter
Message-ID: <A83F5D7883@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13257

I was at a party and one of the women there was talking about the 
first book.  My friend Nancy said she's give it a go (I didn't think it 
sounded interesting *gasp!*).  She borrowed a copy of it and called 
me the next day telling me "You've GOT to read this book, Rachel.  
You've GOT to!  You'll love it."

So she went and bought 1, 2 and 3 (4 wouldn't be out for another 8 
months or so) and I borrowed her copy of 1.  I had a sleepless 
night.  I couldn't put it down!  The next day I went out and bought 
all three of them.  The following month we put in our reservation for 
book 4 and we joined the hundreds of people at the store at 
midnight the night it went on sale.  Even ended up on the news.

Obession is an ugly thing but.....I can't help it.  I'm truly obsessed 
with it.  And when I found out we were reading CoS for my class 
here at Ohio State, I laughed out loud (nice first impression with 
my professor...had to go up and explain after the class was 
dismissed.  She said she completely understood.)
Rachel Bray

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Mar  1 15:41:24 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:41:24 -0000
Subject: SHIPs
Message-ID: <97lqj4+j1qf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13258

Someone asked last night what ships are sailing on this (s)e(a)group. 
I woke up with a mood to tell what ships **I** believe in. Marriage
or at least long-term effectively primary 'romantic' relationship or 
at least heading in that direction when interrupted by death.

CERTAINTIES

Hooch/McGonagall. 
I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that Minnie and Hoochie have been a couple 
since they were both in their early 20s. This is from my intuition,
as canon shows nothing of their private lives and I don't think it 
even shows them together.

Cho/Cedric.
Some people say what's the big deal, they just went to the Yule Ball 
together. I say, NO, they started dating during PoA, they were going 
steady until the Yule Ball, where they upgraded to 'engaged to be 
engaged'. They were making plans to meet each other's parents over
 the summer -- this means, one morning Cho meets Mr and Mrs Diggory 
for the first time, Cedric introducing her as 'This is Cho, the one 
I've said so much about', and that very evening he was dead. Canon 
doesn't specify -- POV Harry doesn't pay enough attention to Cho to 
notice whom she's dating! 

But I believe it possible that Cho/Harry *could* spring from their 
shared mourning.  That would depend on Harry opening up enough to be 
willing to share his mourning..

Pansy/Draco.
A lot of fanfic seems to think that Pansy is ugly, stupid, and as 
nasty to her fellow Slytherins as she is to Harry. I am sure she is 
pretty despite JKR calling her 'hard-faced', at least average in 
intelligence, and quite charming to people she LIKES. A lot of fanfic 
has gay Draco using Pansy only as a disguise, or straight Draco 
disliking Pansy but forced by his parents to date her, or using her 
only for sex. I believe that she and Draco find it a lot of fun to 
hang out together, not just for sex, and also find the sex a lot of 
fun.

Lily/James. 
I believe they married for love and Harry was, if not planned, at 
least wanted. Someone pointed out the other day that we don't know 
that Harry wasn't an unwelcome surprise, and I have suggested 
discussing the possibility that James and Lily were each engaged to 
someone they had chosen (maybe Severus for Lily) but broke those 
engagements to marry because the prophecy said that only their child 
could destroy the Dark Lord.

Angelina/Fred.
To me, he stated that he was taking her to the Ball despite admitting 
that he hadn't asked her yet, and could ask her by yelling across the 
room, BECAUSE they were going steady, therefore knew without asking 
that they were going to the Ball together. Either Ron just hadn't 
noticed that F and A were dating, or they were dating secretly to 
avoid mockery, as did Percy and Penelope.

POSSIBILITIES

Penelope/Percy.
She isn't even MENTIONED in GoF, which does not give the impression 
that the relationship survived leaving school. However, Penelope is 
the name of Odysseus's wife who waited twenty years for him to 
return, therefore I can't be sure that this relationship is over.

George/Katie.
It would be tidily parallel to A/F.

Pomfrey/Dumbledore.
Well, she did compliment his new earmuffs.

Remus/Sirius.
Sirius being bi and Remus being either gay or bi. It would be putting 
their sex lives where their hearts are. That would be sweet and it 
would mean that I wasn't losing Remus to ANOTHER GIRL, but I don't 
think men care very much whether sex and love are in the same place.  

Snape loved Lily.
I don't believe it, but must admit that it's the basis of an entirely 
consistent explanation of Snape's behavior.

Snape/Filch.
I don't know if I believe it, but Pippin has presented a great deal
of strong evidence from canon.

Snape/Draco.
I've been writing it, thus discovered that it's OOC -- Snape may be 
desperately in love with Draco, but he has too much willpower to do 
anything about it, and Draco might be willing to peddle his ass for 
good grades, but is not capable of LOVING a person who isn't fun to 
hang around with.

Millicent / Crabbe-Goyle.
They're big and strong and stupid and hideous. She's big and strong 
and hideous and we don't know whether she's stupid. If they're too 
stupid to notice that she's hideous and too stupid to know that boys 
aren't supposed to share a girlfriend, if they could all happily be 
big and strong and hideous together, that would be a great rescue for 
all the other people whom any of that three might otherwise have 
tried to date.

Harry/Ron.
To me is more plausible than Hermione/Harry or Hermione/Ron, which 
isn't saying much.

Ginny/Hermione.
I don't feel that it is at all LIKELY, but I would like it.







From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 15:47:22 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:47:22 -0000
Subject: tech help needed!
In-Reply-To: <97lp89+1qt4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97lqua+mr40@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13259

I'm getting the same stills over and over from HP.com; I connect at 
56k. I haven't tried Newsround yet because it's not set up for Win 
Media Player and I don't have time to download RealPlayer.


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Whether I watch the wee little box on the WB site or get it from 
the 
> BBC Newsround site (Carole: that's the way to see it big), I'm 
getting 
> the trailer in bits and pieces--the sound rolls fine but the video 
is 
> a bunch of stills.  Different stills each time, so that if I watch 
it 
> all day I might eventually get the idea, but it's a tad 
frustrating.  
> I know this is probably just my poky modem (I think it comes of 
living 
> in the sticks; I only connect at 28 bps even though I have a 56k 
> modem), but can any of you computer wizards and witches out there 
> help?
> 
> Draco looks incredible!  Ditto Harry in the last shot!  Haven't 
seen 
> Snape, Ron or Hermione except the first time.
> 
> Amy Z




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Mar  1 16:03:06 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:03:06 -0000
Subject: Trailer
In-Reply-To: <97lpui+noqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97lrrq+ko3k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13260

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aichambaye at y... wrote:
> I can't make it load! Grrr. And all these comments are making me 
very 
> impatient. !!!!
> 
> HEather M.
> 
> 
> Me neither!  I went to the site this morning & *heard* it, but no 
pictures.  Grrr!  

Parker




From prince_galrion at yahoo.no  Thu Mar  1 16:11:23 2001
From: prince_galrion at yahoo.no (prince_galrion at yahoo.no)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:11:23 -0000
Subject: tech help needed!
In-Reply-To: <97lqua+mr40@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97lsbb+ri80@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13261

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nlpnt at y... wrote:
> I'm getting the same stills over and over from HP.com; I connect at 
> 56k. I haven't tried Newsround yet because it's not set up for Win 
> Media Player and I don't have time to download RealPlayer.
> 

Oh yes, it is (but it takes *forever* to load - I just started said 
process, and it looks set to take 45 min at least, on single ISDN-
line)




From SoSilently at aol.com  Thu Mar  1 16:14:03 2001
From: SoSilently at aol.com (SoSilently at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:14:03 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: tech help needed!
Message-ID: <8c.307dbdd.27cfcf4b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13262

I'd suggest going to the Newsround website that was mentioned before 
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/news/hpmovie4.shtml). I actually saved 
the RealAudio version to my computer (only about a megabyte, just right-click 
and "save target as"), and it runs smooth (albeit small).

-chloe



From bohners at pobox.com  Thu Mar  1 16:36:13 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:36:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: tech help needed!
References: <8c.307dbdd.27cfcf4b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <04a801c0a26d$d77e7da0$0a38acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 13263

FWIW, I have a connection as slow and crappy as anyone's (28.8K) but after
trying the RealAudio and Windows Media versions and getting a bunch of
choppy, blurry stills I tried the QuickTime version (slow) and it's PERFECT.
Took about five min. to download but WELL worth it -- smooth clear images,
sound in sync, and a nice size screen.  Got it at www.harrypotter.com , too,
with no errors or delays.

And oh my, but Snape looks FINE.  Ran that part of the trailer back and
forth about 100 times... <g>  Furthermore, Hermione's hair is definitely
frizzy (yay!) and I loved Harry's megawatt grin.  I do agree with those who
can't quite feature Rupert Grint as Ron, though.  I'll have to see him on
screen to make up my mind, but he just doesn't conform to my mental image of
Ron -- too short, face too round.  Oh, well.  At least his hair is red.  :)
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From mdartagnan at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 16:34:55 2001
From: mdartagnan at yahoo.com (mdartagnan at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:34:55 -0000
Subject: tech help needed!
In-Reply-To: <8c.307dbdd.27cfcf4b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <97ltnf+10vaq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13264

Hi there! Delurking again. ^^

I also suggest you to go to ComingSoon.net (http://www.comingsoon.net/
trailers). You'll only find two Quicktime versions there, anyway.

I saved the Hi-Res version to my computer (9.6 megabytes O_O) but it 
looks great and has quite a decent size.

BTW, if it continues playing "choppy" after you've saved it on your PC, 
you might need to increase the memory of your player. 




Misbehave,
Marijose
Who just can't stop drooling. ^^U







From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar  1 16:59:30 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:59:30 -0000
Subject: Yes!!!  Snape!!...and Draco
In-Reply-To: <97ln4a+u41@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97lv5i+pjsg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13265

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> s
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
> s
> f
> o
> r
> t
> h
> e
> t
> r
> a
> i
> l
> e
> r
> 
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> > I AM at work and I gasped when they showed Alan.  Then I burst  
> > into uncontrollable laughter. 
> 
> I just gasped. He does look *good* (and I am *not* a snape fan - but 
> I do adore Rickman...)
> 
> And yes, cassie, rhysenn, etc., - they did lighten the hair of the 
> boy playing draco (personally, I think he looks fine!)
-------------------------
> 
He looks all right.

<huge grin>

Okay, okay, he looks good. I can't stay -- I've got to run back and 
see if I can figure out how to pause the trailer on the little bit 
with Draco in it. He looks properly blond and malicious, doesn't he? 
May I say I screamed out loud when he showed up in the trailer? And 
threw my book across the room? Yay!!!!

Oh and Harry and Hermione were adorable too. Loved that look she gave 
Ron. "It's wingardium leviosa, stupid."

Cassie




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Thu Mar  1 17:11:20 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:11:20 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <3A9DC945.80DF29AD@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKOEDKCAAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 13266


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer [mailto:pennylin at swbell.net]
> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 5:00 AM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood

> I know I've said this before but .... I too was not all that shaken by
> Cedric's death on my first read.  I really & truly was not convinced
> that this was the much-hyped death that the reader would care about.  I
> remained leery that Cedric was just a prelude or red herring.

I truly didn't think it was a prelude or a red herring, but it wasn't the
death of a beloved character I had expected. Ok, Cedric got a bit of
character development in GoF, and he was an important character,
too, because  he was the second school champion, but after all the
hype about someone dying I would have expected at least one of
the Weasleys to die (not Ron at this point, but maybe one of the
twins).

> Like Monika, I was very concerned for Sirius.  Especially when it was
> revealed that there was a Dementor in the castle (taking care of Crouch
> Jr.).  I was biting my nails, muttering "No ... not Sirius ... not
> Sirius ... no" and dreading turning each page for fear that Sirius would
> be given the Kiss or killed.

Well, the Dementor made me feel uneasy, but I didn't expect another
death in the book, and administering the Dementor's Kiss to Sirius
would have been like killing him. I was much more concerned for
him at the end of PoA, when the Dementors encircled Sirius and Harry
near the lake. When I first read it and saw the chapter named "The
Dementor's Kiss" I was sure that he would be the chosen target.
I remember that I had to finish it before going to work that day, I
couldn't stand waiting until the evening, that would have been
sheer torture, and I'm not sure that I would have got much work
done...

Monika


Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From katie at vquill.com  Thu Mar  1 17:12:30 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:12:30 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer
In-Reply-To: <97lpta+bj12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010301091109.00af2730@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13267

At 03:29 PM 3/1/01 +0000, you wrote:
>  Umm. What to say... The music sounded
>a bit generic, so I would imagine that John Williams has not finished
>the actual score yet and what I heard on the trailer won't appear in
>the film.

Acutally, it sounded just like John Williams to me. I heard his 
characteristic trumpets and happy flowing woodwinds. ;)  I don't think it's 
a fanfare or anything, but its John Williamsy. :)


-Katie, who wanted to be a Boston Pop when she grew up ;)




From hamster8 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  1 17:21:04 2001
From: hamster8 at hotmail.com (hamster8 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:21:04 -0000
Subject: Yes!!!  Snape!!...and Draco
In-Reply-To: <97lv5i+pjsg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97m0e0+4aih@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13268

What?

Trailer?

Why was I not informed?
Annoyingly, I can't get to it.  University network regulations 
probably forbid it somewhere.  So I have to wait 2 whole weeks before 
I go home again ... unless anybody feels like being *very* naughty, 
saving it to disk and emailing it to me as an attachment ... *Al bats 
eyelids*

They lightened Draco's hair ... that's good.  Was Slut!Draco in there 
anywhere ... maybe strutting his funky stuff on the dancefloor or ... 
well, I dunno.  Good if he was.  Actually, I saw the kid playing Draco 
in 'The Borrowers' over Christmas, and he proved then he could play an 
annoying whiny brat.  What vexes me about the movie is that in general 
I can't stand kids in movies ... they either can't act, or are 
disgustingly cute -- this is why I cringe whenever I watch ET, 
Jurassic Park, or any other film that relies on kids.  It worries me 
that I'm going to *hate* the movie because of this.  Anyone else 
feel the same way?  Having said that I *am* feverishly excited, and 
have just bought the calendar for my room at uni, a snitch keyfob and 
have ordered the textbooks at my local Borders in central Brighton.  
There is *no* doubt I will be seeing the film come November, though to 
excuse myself, I think I'm going to have to take my little cousins or 
the neighbour's kids so I don't look silly.  Or maybe not.

Oh well.

On a happy note, I have a nagging feeling that this may well be my 
first ever post to this group, even though I've been lurking for the 
better part of two months ... chat involvement cannot be too far away 
*Al grins suspiciously*

Just my 2 Knuts
*Al saunters vaguely westwards*

PS (OT) -- If *anybody* on list can tell me of *any* offline sources 
in the UK (i.e. not Amazon) where I can get Weird Al Yankovic CD's, I 
would be forver grateful - don't have a credit card so can't shop 
online.




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Mar  1 17:31:50 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:31:50 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer
In-Reply-To: <97lpta+bj12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEHODEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13269

Moderators - are we required to put spoiler space in for this?

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

T
H
E

T
R
A
I
L
E
R

Dai: "Following a marathon nine and half meg download over a 56k modem at
peak rate. I saw it. Um wow. I counted about 60-80 students at each table
in the great hall incidentally which gives about 350 odd students (adding
first years). Umm. What to say... The music sounded a bit generic, so I
would imagine that John Williams has not finished the actual score yet and
what I heard on the trailer won't appear in the film.
Little, details, not much out of order, except that Mr Dursley was holding
a shotgun not a rifle and the walls of the hut on the rock were stone not
wood."

Heidi: "And yes, cassie, rhysenn, etc., - they did lighten the hair of the
boy playing draco (personally, I think he looks fine!)

And I loved hermione's expression (and the frizziness of her hair) and want
to note, most prominently, that if there's that many kids in the
gryffindor-only transfiguration class, then there are 1000 kids in the
school...but I'm waiting for someone with more time than me to count the
number of people in the Great Hall, add an additional 13 percent to cover
the Ickle Firsties...and tell us the correct number."


Well in that lesson we can see 12 people in shot. Each person has a set of
textbooks and a feather in front of them (the set of text books in the top
right hand corner of the picture correspond to the kid in the top left who
should be Neville as Seamus is working with Harry (according to the books)
and Harry is in the front row). I would guess that as Hermione is a
workaholic (add extra stuff in here as you see applicable) she would be
seated in the front row. This means that if there is no one lese out of
shot (apart from Flitwick teaching) then there are 12 Gryffindors, 5 male
and 7 female (I leave someone else to work out who the mystery people are).

A bit later they run through a classroom, which corresponds to the
following picture of Durham Cathedral (I believe):
http://beta.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Movie%20Settings/cla
ssroomDurham.jpg
This picture has 15 desks and I will leave you to guess on which lesson
they are for.

I guessed reckoned at 50-60 students seated at each table for the start of
year feast. This gives a student population of 230-280, but I am prepared
to agree with Dai that it might be a little higher. Certainly there is
nothing like 1000 people in that hall and to get 1000 in would require the
hall to be 2 to 3 times longer and it already looks to be absolutely
massive (I will stop here on the student numbers rant).


The Quidditch at Alnwick Castle looks fun. This is one part of the movie I
am really looking forward to. The next bit after that must be of the first
broomstick lesson, they have all just turned to look at something. I guess
that this something is Neville flying off. There are 26 people in shot, 25
students and Hooch with Neville flying off into the sunset out of shot.
Hooch is the one in the middle. Ron Harry Hermione and Seamus are the ones
behind her. Draco, flanked by Crabbe and Goyle, are those in front
(identifiable as they are much larger than the rest and have a blond in
between them).


Hagrid has been made to look big by a mixture of special effect and some
good old-fashioned camera trickery. Draco is blond and there is absolutely
no doubt about it. Worryingly Hermione's hair is blonder than mine and I
consider myself to be blond. Rickman as Snape looks to be an inspired
decision. That facial expression says it all.


And of course all those owls are cool.


Simon
--
55% Obsessed with Harry Potter. How obsessed are you?
Take The Harry Potter Obsession quiz at: http://www.fuuko.com/hpquiz.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------







From saitaina at wizzards.net  Thu Mar  1 17:51:57 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:51:57 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yes!!!  Snape!!...and Draco
References: <97lv5i+pjsg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005101c0a278$549ca0a0$024e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13270

hehe, Cassie, I already have it paused on the bit and I figured otu the scene, it's from when Draco first meets Harry as he's actually looking nice (not in the sense of looking handsome though he is that)


Saitaina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From amy at pressroom.com  Thu Mar  1 18:16:40 2001
From: amy at pressroom.com (Amy Gourley)
Date: Thu,  1 Mar 2001 13:16:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer SPOILERS
Message-ID: <200103011316.AA1978269854@pressroom.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13271

SPOILERS!!!!
SPOILERS!!!!
Read with care

Ok, I LOVE the trailer! I think everything looks great!The Great Hall is just like I pictured it and so is the Hut on the Rock-it's amazing that they look just like the pictures in my head! I love the music in the trailer-I wish there would have been a little dialogue though. I want to hear Harry speak! Snape looks great too-Alan Rickman does not look too old. Yes, Hermione's look to Ron in the classroom is priceless! Draco looks good too.In the last scene of the trailer with everyone cheering, there is a red headed boy you see from behind. Either one of the twins or Percy? Looks like Percy to me from the actor's picture I've seen.

Is that the snitch flying off in the Quidditch scene? It looks a little big than I thought if that is the snitch. The brooms look a little bushy to me too. I guess those are my only negative comments so far.

Overall, it looks really good! It makes me more excited! 

Amy














From chessdiva at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  1 18:10:13 2001
From: chessdiva at hotmail.com (Lisa Gansky)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:10:13 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] WWII Analogy
Message-ID: <F82CdICpfbVaoevpOnA000032a8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13272

Sigh. After reading all this, I'm thinking it's time to die my hair.
~Lisa


>From: "Signe Cluiss" <signe_weasley at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [HPforGrownups] WWII Analogy
>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:16:00 -0600
>
>After reading all of the "Blonde Hair" posts, I remembered that when I 
>first
>joined the list, there were many posts about JKR and the posibility of WW2
>analogies.  I put 2 and 2 together... Nazis thought that blonde haired
>people were the Aryan race, and that these people were superior to the 
>rest.
>   I am sure you have all heard this story before.  Except Hitler failed to
>acknowledge that the Aryans were a group of fairly light-skinned people who
>migrated from the fertile plain to India.  I assume she gives her own 
>blonde
>characters the same character: they look like they should be wonderful,
>superior people considering they are from good breeding, etc, but they
>aren't.  I think JKR was mocking misconception, but I am probably reading
>too into it.
>
>Signe Weasley
>
>"You can never have too many Weasleys"
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
>website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also consult 
>our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @ 
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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From optimistic_88 at msn.com  Thu Mar  1 19:34:59 2001
From: optimistic_88 at msn.com (optimistic_88 at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:34:59 -0000
Subject: WWII Analogy
In-Reply-To: <F82CdICpfbVaoevpOnA000032a8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <97m893+45hi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13273

Yes, I for one have noticed this analogy, and think it is true down 
to the bit where these blonds really aren't that wonderful-there is 
one blond that's wonderful but everybody else is not; this blond is 
sexy, looks good in leather, is part veela and has an ego the size of 
the sun! *coughs* Yes, I know we ALL love him-Draco Malfoy! *coughs* 
Ok....back to the work I'm supposed to be doing...*zooms back to 
loking as if she's typing up some importanat memo and whatnot when 
she's really reading her email....Shhhh, don't tell!*
~Kim "Never trust a doctor whose office plants are dying." B~

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Lisa Gansky" <chessdiva at h...> wrote:
> Sigh. After reading all this, I'm thinking it's time to die my hair.
> ~Lisa
> 
> 
> >From: "Signe Cluiss" <signe_weasley at h...>
> >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at y...
> >To: HPforGrownups at y...
> >Subject: [HPforGrownups] WWII Analogy
> >Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:16:00 -0600
> >
> >After reading all of the "Blonde Hair" posts, I remembered that 
when I 
> >first
> >joined the list, there were many posts about JKR and the 
posibility of WW2
> >analogies.  I put 2 and 2 together... Nazis thought that blonde 
haired
> >people were the Aryan race, and that these people were superior to 
the 
> >rest.
> >   I am sure you have all heard this story before.  Except Hitler 
failed to
> >acknowledge that the Aryans were a group of fairly light-skinned 
people who
> >migrated from the fertile plain to India.  I assume she gives her 
own 
> >blonde
> >characters the same character: they look like they should be 
wonderful,
> >superior people considering they are from good breeding, etc, but 
they
> >aren't.  I think JKR was mocking misconception, but I am probably 
reading
> >too into it.
> >
> >Signe Weasley
> >
> >"You can never have too many Weasleys"
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, 
see our
> >website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please 
also consult 
> >our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @ 
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
> >
> >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at y...
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  1 19:40:52 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:40:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer is up Dark Horizons has the best viewing
References: <97lmmr+3ibb@eGroups.com> <003101c0a25d$7b242b00$234e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <000a01c0a287$885f3740$1814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13274


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Saitaina 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 8:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] trailer is up


  Wish I could....keeps not connecting on my end.  *pouts and glares at her computer about to kick it*

  Saitaina

  I had lots of trouble on the Warner Bros site trying to view the trailer. Dark Horizons worked perfectly for me and was much bigger than that tiny little box. I want to see the movie! It looks like it is going to be a good movie. If I had never read the books, I think that it is a movie that I would have loved. Since I have read the books, I know that there has never been a movie that has completely measured up to the one in my imagination, but that doesn't stop me from being able to enjoy the story in a different format.

  Doreen who watched it over and over and thinks that Harry's smile reminds her a bit of John Lennon's smile


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From prince_galrion at yahoo.no  Thu Mar  1 19:44:21 2001
From: prince_galrion at yahoo.no (prince_galrion at yahoo.no)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:44:21 -0000
Subject: Potter on the pyre
Message-ID: <97m8ql+bgn5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13275

The following appeared today, Thursday 01.03.2001, in the Norwegian 
newspaper VG.  Klaes Krog is that newspaper's correspondent in 
Germany.  Hopefully, our German members can shed more light on what 
actually happened, and on reactions to this in Germany.


-----------------------------------
Potter on the Pyre 
By KLAES KROG 

BERLIN (VG) Fear of exciting magic caused a German Christian youth-
group to burn Harry Potter books recently, in the village Schramberg 
in Schwabische Alb not far from Stuttgart. 

It is no longer possible to borrow books at the library in M?nsingen, 
because conservative members of the parishional council fear that the 
contents of the books will cause a growth of occultism.  That Land-
church in Stuttgart is shocked to hear these news.  Spokesman for the 
church in the region, Christof Vetter, is anxious to point out that 
the church in no way supports these actions. 

? the only thing that helps against this is irony, says Vetter.  In 
Germany, they find consolation that it is not only in pietistic 
Schwaben that bible-bloated guardinas of morale are in action.  The 
books are reportedly also banned in one English comprehensive school, 
because it is not in accordance to the word of the Bible, the way the 
headmistress of the school feels good literature should be ? at her 
school. 

Spokesman for the stock-exchange-association of German bookdealers is 
clear in his views: 

? For the moment we have an occult wave.  The trigger for this is 
without question the four Harry Potter-books, which have beaten all 
previous sales-records for children's books, and have sold in 60 
million copies across the world. 

A similar wizardry-wave was experienced in 1970 as well, with the 
adventures of Frodo and Sam in their quest with Gandalf against evil, 
in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. 

? Purely entertainment 
The publishing-house that publishes the Harry Potter-books in Norway, 
has not experienced reactions of the kind now seen in Germany. 

This  according to Tove Steinbo, responsible for public relations in 
the Publishin-house Damm & S?n a/s.

? What wizardry is seen in these books, is purely entertainment.

These are not books that encourage children to do the same things 
that Harry Potter does, says Steinbo, and points to this maybe being 
part of what fascinates readers.

? We know that we cannot bring this magic into our everyday lives.

For this reason it is silly to be afraid of this; you realise that 
this is a universe that does not really exist, says Steinbo.
-----------------------------------




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Mar  1 19:46:41 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:46:41 -0000
Subject: Trailer
In-Reply-To: <97lrrq+ko3k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97m8v1+oea0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13276

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., aichambaye at y... wrote:
> > I can't make it load! Grrr. And all these comments are making me 
> very 
> > impatient. !!!!
> > 
> > HEather M.
> > 
> > 
> > Me neither!  I went to the site this morning & *heard* it, but no 
> pictures.  Grrr!  
> 
> Parker

I finally took Rebecca's suggestion & downloaded Quicktime.  It 
works!!  It *is* small, but ohmygosh!!  Everything everyone's been 
saying is true & then some.  I can hardly wait!

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker

----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to brew fame, bottle glory, even stopper 
death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

'Sarcasm--just another service I offer'  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  1 19:59:44 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:59:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: tech help needed!
References: <97lqua+mr40@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005301c0a28a$2b342c80$1814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13277

Use the Dark Horizons version of it and it is played on Quick Time, which doesnt take all that long to download. The different clips are extremely short. At times, they almost look like stills, except for Hedwig's wings flapping, and Hermione floating the feather, etc.

Who is walking next to the Hogwarts Express? Anyone care to guess? Is it just any man or is it maybe Hagrid?

Doreen
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nlpnt at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 9:47 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: tech help needed!


  I'm getting the same stills over and over from HP.com; I connect at 
  56k. I haven't tried Newsround yet because it's not set up for Win 
  Media Player and I don't have time to download RealPlayer.


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
  > Whether I watch the wee little box on the WB site or get it from 
  the 
  > BBC Newsround site (Carole: that's the way to see it big), I'm 
  getting 
  > the trailer in bits and pieces--the sound rolls fine but the video 
  is 
  > a bunch of stills.  Different stills each time, so that if I watch 
  it 
  > all day I might eventually get the idea, but it's a tad 
  frustrating.  
  > I know this is probably just my poky modem (I think it comes of 
  living 
  > in the sticks; I only connect at 28 bps even though I have a 56k 
  > modem), but can any of you computer wizards and witches out there 
  > help?
  > 
  > Draco looks incredible!  Ditto Harry in the last shot!  Haven't 
  seen 
  > Snape, Ron or Hermione except the first time.
  > 
  > Amy Z


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From katie at vquill.com  Thu Mar  1 19:58:51 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:58:51 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: tech help needed!
In-Reply-To: <005301c0a28a$2b342c80$1814a3d1@doreen>
References: <97lqua+mr40@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010301115841.00b25460@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13278

At 01:59 PM 3/1/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Use the Dark Horizons version of it and it is played on Quick Time, which 
>doesnt take all that long to download. The different clips are extremely 
>short. At times, they almost look like stills, except for Hedwig's wings 
>flapping, and Hermione floating the feather, etc.
>
>Who is walking next to the Hogwarts Express? Anyone care to guess? Is it 
>just any man or is it maybe Hagrid?
>
>Doreen

Looked like Hagrid to me. :>




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Thu Mar  1 20:01:55 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:01:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trailer
In-Reply-To: <97m8v1+oea0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFCEMICCAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13279

The family and I watched the trailer ,let's see how many times? Oh well we
lost count! The music is haunting and what else can we say ! We need the
movie! November can't get here fast enough! If you haven't been to the wb
site do so,from Roy and Wanda.

-----Original Message-----
From: pbnesbit at msn.com [mailto:pbnesbit at msn.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 2:47 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trailer


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., aichambaye at y... wrote:
> > I can't make it load! Grrr. And all these comments are making me
> very
> > impatient. !!!!
> >
> > HEather M.
> >
> >
> > Me neither!  I went to the site this morning & *heard* it, but no
> pictures.  Grrr!
>
> Parker

I finally took Rebecca's suggestion & downloaded Quicktime.  It
works!!  It *is* small, but ohmygosh!!  Everything everyone's been
saying is true & then some.  I can hardly wait!

Peace & Plenty,

Parker

----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to brew fame, bottle glory, even stopper
death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

'Sarcasm--just another service I offer'  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  1 20:17:47 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:17:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yes!!!  Snape!!...and Draco
References: <97m0e0+4aih@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c0a28c$afda14c0$1814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13280

There is *no* doubt I will be seeing the film come November, though to 
excuse myself, I think I'm going to have to take my little cousins or 
the neighbour's kids so I don't look silly.  Or maybe not.
Just my 2 Knuts
*Al saunters vaguely westwards*

Not me ... I am going to take the night off, drive 45 miles to Mason City, cuz our podunk lil town won't have it for a couple of months later... and I am going to sit through it as many times as I can manage in the number of showings that they have there. Although I am above shoving little kids out of line, I am not above keeping them from jumping ahead of me.

Doreen, just a big kid when I want to be





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mschub at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 20:18:11 2001
From: mschub at yahoo.com (Mike Schubert)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 20:18:11 -0000
Subject: Fleur's Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <97knka+681e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97maq3+huje@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13281

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ourobouros_1999 at y... wrote:

> Yes, but I wasn't arguing that it meant that she was intelligent, I 
> just said it argued against her being stupid. She could be simply 
> mediocre mentally, while being above average in some other way. But 
> what are the grounds for assuming Fleur's stupidity? (Refresh me, I 
> haven't been looking at all the threads)

I don't think of Fleur as necessarily BRILLIANT, but at the same 
time, I certainly don't think of her as stupid. When I think of her, 
for some reason, the adjectives that jump to mind are somewhat 
fox-like: "cunning", "sly", and so on. I think she's very used to 
manipulating people to get her way. She may not have been the 
valedictorian, but I'd bet she would have been voted both "Most 
Popular" and "Most Likely to Succeed".
-Mike




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Thu Mar  1 20:13:25 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:13:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potter on the pyre
In-Reply-To: <97m8ql+bgn5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFEEMJCCAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13282

Reminds me of the book burning during WWII. Or when John Lennon had said
that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus and all of the Bible Belt
shown in the news the burning of anything and everything of the Beatles.
There will always be a group somewhere to be fanatical about what ever is
popular of the time. I fell sorry for them to miss out on a grand adventure
and live a little. Even Jesus tells you to balance your life. If it was all
religion all the time I would get bored. I know my boys would be. People are
people and not everyone likes something at one point or another. Harry
Potter lives on in our home! Roy and Wanda

-----Original Message-----
From: prince_galrion at yahoo.no [mailto:prince_galrion at yahoo.no]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 2:44 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potter on the pyre


The following appeared today, Thursday 01.03.2001, in the Norwegian
newspaper VG.  Klaes Krog is that newspaper's correspondent in
Germany.  Hopefully, our German members can shed more light on what
actually happened, and on reactions to this in Germany.


-----------------------------------
Potter on the Pyre
By KLAES KROG

BERLIN (VG) Fear of exciting magic caused a German Christian youth-
group to burn Harry Potter books recently, in the village Schramberg
in Schwabische Alb not far from Stuttgart.

It is no longer possible to borrow books at the library in Mnsingen,
because conservative members of the parishional council fear that the
contents of the books will cause a growth of occultism.  That Land-
church in Stuttgart is shocked to hear these news.  Spokesman for the
church in the region, Christof Vetter, is anxious to point out that
the church in no way supports these actions.

 the only thing that helps against this is irony, says Vetter.  In
Germany, they find consolation that it is not only in pietistic
Schwaben that bible-bloated guardinas of morale are in action.  The
books are reportedly also banned in one English comprehensive school,
because it is not in accordance to the word of the Bible, the way the
headmistress of the school feels good literature should be  at her
school.

Spokesman for the stock-exchange-association of German bookdealers is
clear in his views:

 For the moment we have an occult wave.  The trigger for this is
without question the four Harry Potter-books, which have beaten all
previous sales-records for children's books, and have sold in 60
million copies across the world.

A similar wizardry-wave was experienced in 1970 as well, with the
adventures of Frodo and Sam in their quest with Gandalf against evil,
in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

 Purely entertainment
The publishing-house that publishes the Harry Potter-books in Norway,
has not experienced reactions of the kind now seen in Germany.

This  according to Tove Steinbo, responsible for public relations in
the Publishin-house Damm & Sn a/s.

 What wizardry is seen in these books, is purely entertainment.

These are not books that encourage children to do the same things
that Harry Potter does, says Steinbo, and points to this maybe being
part of what fascinates readers.

 We know that we cannot bring this magic into our everyday lives.

For this reason it is silly to be afraid of this; you realise that
this is a universe that does not really exist, says Steinbo.
-----------------------------------


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From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Mar  1 20:24:47 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 1 Mar 2001 12:24:47 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blonde canon Draco Malfoy
Message-ID: <20010301202447.19594.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13283

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From zsenya at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 20:51:01 2001
From: zsenya at yahoo.com (zsenya at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 20:51:01 -0000
Subject: SHIPs
In-Reply-To: <97lqj4+j1qf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97mcnl+b6o8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13284

I am known for my fierce support of Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny on 
the SHIP front, so I won't even go there right now, but I'd like to 
express my agreement at some of the others listed below.
 
> Cho/Cedric.
> Some people say what's the big deal, they just went to the Yule Ball 
> together. I say, NO, they started dating during PoA, they were going 
> steady until the Yule Ball, where they upgraded to 'engaged to be 
> engaged'...

I am in total agreement about this - I choose to use Cho's sobs at the 
end of GoF as evidence that the relationship was fairly deep.
 
> But I believe it possible that Cho/Harry *could* spring from their 
> shared mourning.  That would depend on Harry opening up enough to be 
> willing to share his mourning..

Yeah, I could see them dating, or, at least become fairly good 
friends.  I have this feeling that Harry's going to feel some guilt 
over what happened to Cedric and this will pretty much cancel out any 
feelings he has towards Cho.


> Lily/James. 
> I believe they married for love and Harry was, if not planned, at 
> least wanted. Someone pointed out the other day that we don't know 
> that Harry wasn't an unwelcome surprise, and I have suggested 
> discussing the possibility that James and Lily were each engaged to 
> someone they had chosen (maybe Severus for Lily) but broke those 
> engagements to marry because the prophecy said that only their child 
> could destroy the Dark Lord.

Well, in PoA, Lily is described as shining with happiness in her 
wedding picture.  Why would she be if she wasn't in love?

> Penelope/Percy.
> She isn't even MENTIONED in GoF, which does not give the impression 
> that the relationship survived leaving school. However, Penelope is 
> the name of Odysseus's wife who waited twenty years for him to 
> return, therefore I can't be sure that this relationship is over.

I know, I've been thinking a lot about this one because of a fic that 
I'm writing.  You'd think that she'd be chatting with Percy at the 
Yule Ball, but she isn't even mentioned, is she?  In my mind, they're 
together still, but I have nothing to base it on.

> Remus/Sirius.
> Sirius being bi and Remus being either gay or bi. It would be 
putting 
> their sex lives where their hearts are. That would be sweet and it 
> would mean that I wasn't losing Remus to ANOTHER GIRL, but I don't 
> think men care very much whether sex and love are in the same place. 
 
This is *exactly* what I've been thinking lately.  Maybe it's all in 
my head, but I just feel that those two were meant for each other.  
Once again, not a whole lot to go by - Remus did embrace Sirius "like 
a brother" but that was from Harry's POV.  In terms of fan fiction, 
although I love Thing1's stories about Remus, they're the only fics 
where Remus is with a woman that I like.  It's so strange really - 
I'm not gay or bi, I don't know many people who are, but I just *feel* 
it with R/S.  I've been wondering if JKR did that or if it's the 
fanfic messing with my head.  I am dying to know the history that JKR 
has going on in her head with those two. Didn't she mention somewhere 
that she already has it all planned out for her own benefit?


:)Zsenya




From prince_galrion at yahoo.no  Thu Mar  1 20:59:11 2001
From: prince_galrion at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:59:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Trailer
In-Reply-To: <983477077.2654.76309.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010301205911.26387.qmail@web12805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13285

--- HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com skrev: 
The omnipresent Dr. Branford <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk> said:
> Moderators - are we required to put spoiler space in for this?
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> F
> O
> R
> 
> T
> H
> E
> 
> T
> R
> A
> I
> L
> E
> R
[snip]
> I guessed reckoned at 50-60 students seated at each table for the start of
> year feast. 

Which gives only 25-30 for each side of the table - there are more than that in the
picture.  I've been at family-gatherings in restaurants with tables that long (25-30 per
side).

"Saitaina" <saitaina at wizzards.net> said
> hehe, Cassie, I already have it paused on the bit and I figured otu the scene, it's
> from when Draco first meets Harry as he's actually looking nice (not in the sense of
> looking handsome though he is that)

I do not believe so - Harry looks to be wearing a white shirt, which he was not when he
went shopping in Diagon Alley - then he had that ghastly green T-shirt and the
tartan-patterned shirt over it (since that's what he's wearing in the Gringotts-scene).


"Amy Gourley" <amy at pressroom.com> said:
> SPOILERS!!!!
> SPOILERS!!!!
> Read with care
[snip]
> Is that the snitch flying off in the Quidditch scene? It looks a little big than I
> thought if that is the snitch. The brooms look a little bushy to me too. I guess those
> are my only negative comments so far.
[snip]

The brooms are of course the school-brooms of dubious quality, used for flying-training
for first-years.  

The ball flying away is definately a bludger - I stopped the movie, and it is one of two
smaller balls in a crate.  There is a larger red ball between the two smaller ones.  The
shock on Harry's face suggests that he has never seen anything like that before, meaning
that this is when Oliver wood explains Quidditch to him, and they did not release the
snitch at that time.


The AVI-version has been taken off the Newsround-site again.

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From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 21:01:16 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:01:16 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potter on the pyre
References: <97m8ql+bgn5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008301c0a292$c64e0260$5e00a8c0@cablecom.ch>

No: HPFGUIDX 13286

> Hopefully, our German members can shed more light on what
> actually happened, and on reactions to this in Germany.

Some parts of the German-speaking Christian community have followed the lead
of our U.S. counterparts, with a few months worth of translation lag. I've
got into a few rumpuses, and a friend of mind nearly got himself lynched for
organizing an information evening in which he warmly recommended that
parents read HP to their kids.

For the most part, however, German-speaking Christians tend to be less
trigger happy--if only because the community is much smaller.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, now back in the happy pastures of
Potterdom! It was a heck of a long swim back from that dumb island where
Neil marooned me during that Great Shipping Debate.)
_______________________

"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising
inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers,
but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high."




From ljl236 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 21:04:16 2001
From: ljl236 at yahoo.com (LJL)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:04:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Harry, Cho, Cedric, Ron etc.
In-Reply-To: <983459920.3226.41393.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010301210416.33417.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13287

Friends on the list, am I the only one who feels we are WAY overanalyzing
scenes meant to describe early teen crushes, friendships and puppy love? I
mean, we met Harry when he turned 11; it's only to be expected he will
"notice" girls at some point, and Cho's the first. The whole setup for a
boy/girl mixer at the Yule Ball is just so evocative of that age group --
who's going to ask me, whom shall I ask, what shall I wear, the boys who
wait too long because they're still too embarrassed...I just have a hard
time seeing it as anything more serious than that.
  Lilah

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From shades_of_black at mail.com  Thu Mar  1 21:07:18 2001
From: shades_of_black at mail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:07:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Trailer
Message-ID: <387912077.983480838446.JavaMail.root@web572-mc>

No: HPFGUIDX 13288

Oh, lord on high. I just saw the trailer. I started *weeping*. I kid you
not. I was so thrilled and freaked at the same time. I weeped, I screamed, I
was thankful no one else was at home >_< That was amazing. I'm beyond words.
And I didn't even get to hear it because my speakers are broken. But I saw
it! That was without a doubt the happiest I have been in at least a year.
I'm such a loser. We even saw Draco! And Snape! That was the coolest thing
*ever*! Oh, I'm making an ass out of myself. It was like seeing my
imagination from a third person perspective. I need to go take some Valium.

========
Morsus "Can't Touch This" Crustum *dry laugh* [get it? MC?]

"Well I'm up to my neck in the crumbling wreckage
Of all that I wanted from life
When I looked for respect all I got was neglect
Though I swallowed the line as a sign of the times
But dealing a jack from the back of the pack
They said-"You lose again"
Oh, I said, who needs it?"

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From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Mar  1 21:12:10 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (Jeralyn)
Date: 1 Mar 2001 13:12:10 -0800
Subject: ADMIN (sort of but not really) & FF:  The Letter
Message-ID: <20010301211210.26031.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13289

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From aravenna at bigfoot.com  Thu Mar  1 21:20:58 2001
From: aravenna at bigfoot.com (Ara or Heather)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:20:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer
In-Reply-To: <387912077.983480838446.JavaMail.root@web572-mc>
Message-ID: <20010301212058.58290.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13290

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Hey everyone...this is my first post, although I've
been reading for weeks.  Haven't had anything to say
until now!

Like everyone else, I've spent the day watching the
trailer over and over and over and obsessing over the
little details.  I don't think anyone's mentioned this
yet today.  In the flying lesson scene, there are two
lines of students.  One is apparently the Gryffindor
line (Harry, Ron, and Hermione are in it) and one is
apparently the Slytherin line (the blond between two
large boys is apparently Draco with Crabbe and Goyle).
 There are twelve students in the Gryffindor line,
with (presumably) Neville rapidly rising above them
making thirteen.  There are thirteen students in the
Slytherin line.  In the charms class scene where
Hermione is levitating the feather, there are twelve
students visible, with a textbook in the upper right
which may belong to a student out of shot.  This would
add up to thirteen as well.  Perhaps the filmmakers
decided that Hogwarts would have thirteen students per
house, per year, as in the traditional witches' coven?
 That would equal 364 students at Hogwarts total, and
91 students at each of the long tables.  Anyone want
to check to see if there are 91 plates in the Great
Hall scene? 

I *don't* think that JKR plans for there to be 13
students per house per year, but I do think it's
interesting that the filmmakers chose to do so (so far
as I can tell).  In addition, in the charms class
scene, there are Ron, Harry, Seamus (working with
Harry), two boys behind them (Dean and Neville?) and
possibly two more boys in the back row on the
left...plus the student out of shot, if he's a
boy...too many boys again.  Grrr...and we hoped the
trailer might solve some problems...

In the closeup of Ron and Harry before the sorting, is
that Pansy Parkinson to their left?

LOVE the bit where the three are screaming!  Harry
turns and runs while Hermione and Ron are still
standing there, then IN SYNC Herm and Ron turn to run
as well!  Further proof they belong together! *ducks
the flying shoes thrown by the H/Hers* :)

When Harry looks up at the (bludger? I think), his
hair flies up and if you pause it just right (or are
running it frame by frame) there's a tiny blob of pink
on his forehead.  Admittedly, that may be the
awfulness of the format on my computer, but I like to
think it's his scar!

All in all, YAY!  Can't wait for November!

Ara Davies
aravenna at bigfoot.com

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From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  1 21:23:43 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:23:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer screaming and running from?
References: <387912077.983480838446.JavaMail.root@web572-mc>
Message-ID: <011e01c0a295$e5b75cc0$1814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13291

Could the scene with them running and screaming, be the Sorting Hat scene, where they see the Hogwarts ghosts go streaming through for the first time? 

Just guessing 
Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 21:24:50 2001
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (neptune_1984)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:24:50 -0600
Subject: Movie Trailer
References: <983459920.3226.41393.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c0a296$0d86b520$84301a3f@f7yt10b>

No: HPFGUIDX 13292

I downloaded the trailer from www.darkhorizons.com onto my computer in
QuickTime format, so that I'll be able to watch it without Internet
connection. I think it's amazing. I was a bit disapointed that we didn't get
to hear Harry, Ron, Hermoine, Snape, or Draco. But the presentation of the
trailer as a whole made up for it. I was also amazed by the set designs and
that they showed the bank.

--Erin

================
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if you do,
lucky end
for  them and you
<\-/>
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From hermitchick at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 21:29:21 2001
From: hermitchick at yahoo.com (Persephone)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:29:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Trailer
Message-ID: <20010301212921.34726.qmail@web9704.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13293

Ohh...Pretty...

Took freaken' forever to download the 10mb one, on a
56k modem working at it's usual 28k, hate my computer!
 My quicktime player is really screwed up, again; it
kept skipping and the sound is crappy, but the pieces
that I actually got to see were cool. Little flash of
Snape and I think I saw Draco too!  Have to try to see
if I can get it to work latter tonight.  I can't wait
to see the movie now! 

*Happy dance* Well gotta go to work now, hate my
life:(

Ja ne,
The hyperactive one:P



=====
"So we reach into the raging chaos, and we pluck some small glittering thing, and we cling to it, and tell ourselves it has meaning, and that the world is good, and we are not evil and we will all go home in the end."
- Lestat, "Tale of the Body Thief" by Anne Rice

Persephone's Lair: http://geocities.com/hermitchick
Harry and Draco Archive: http://geocities.com/harry_and_draco

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From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  1 21:17:35 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:17:35 -0600
Subject: Techie Question re: the Trailer
Message-ID: <3A9EBC6F.B4D4728B@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13294

Hi --

Okay, I first went to the Warner Bros. site.  I heard the audio clearly,
but the visual was really a series of "choppy" stills.  There were parts
that I later saw on QuickTime that weren't on the first Real Player
version that I saw.

Here's my question: I've tried the QuickTime version on Warner Bros. and
now on Darkhorizons.  Neither version has any audio going.  My speakers
are working, and like I said, I heard it all on the RealPlayer version.
So, why no sound on the QuickTime versions?  Now that I've taken the
time to download the high resolution QuickTime version (which is
*phenomenal* btw -- Cassie, if you didn't figure out how to pause it on
Draco, email me -- with this you can).  But, I want the audio *and* the
video together now!  Help!!

Penny




From bohners at pobox.com  Thu Mar  1 21:38:22 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:38:22 -0500
Subject: FF:  I've committed a fic...
Message-ID: <002101c0a298$0ddeae40$3f3cacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 13295

...heaven help us all.  In any case I'd value comments, especially critical
ones (i.e. if anybody spots a glaring continuity error, or finds fault with
my Latin).

For those wary of the more far-flung types of fanfic, I've tried to be true
to the characters as Rowling's shown them to us so far, while at the same
time showing them in a new but plausible light.  If I've failed in either
respect, I hope you'll let me know.

You can find "The Potions Master's Apprentice" at
http://fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=219220 .

Thanks,
--
Rebecca J. Bohner (a.k.a. R. J. Anderson)
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Mar  1 21:13:47 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:13:47 -0000
Subject: The movie trailer
Message-ID: <019301c0a294$9625e7e0$c83570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 13296

The Mechanimagus Moderator suggests (not having consulted the others):  Okay... I guess we should put spoiler space re the trailer, unless we're just going to say: "Wow, it looks cool.  I have to see the movie!"

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

"Wow, it looks cool.  I have to see the movie!"




Only kidding.  I'm still working on seeing a non-choppy version of the trailer, so I've missed some details.

A few comments:

McGonagall isn't wearing her glasses!  Is she?  Otherwise, Maggie Smith looks just as I'd hoped.

Snape looks fabulous.  The Great Hall looks fantastic.  The music sounds great.  I'm almost wetting my pants with excitement!!!

Why does everyone keep saying they've lightened Tom Felton's hair?  That's his natural colour (see the 'blond' pic I posted in the Movie Cast files). He looks like he's lost some weight for this part.

Interesting that they made one of the teachers non-human: the one that looks a bit like Yoda from Star Wars?  I don't think that's Flitwick (it doesn't look like Warwick Davis for a start) - it has to be Binns.

Harry and Hermione look adorable.  I love what they've done with Hermione's hair - she looks positively evil.  Like many others, I think Ron looks too squat and round-faced.  I'm prepared to forgive this glitch, as the casting is so spot on in other areas...

BTW, the voiceover voice sounds to me like an American version of a British accent - perhaps it's Richard Harris having spent too long in the US!?

Oh.... I can't wait.  I really can't.

Neil

________________________________________

flying_ford_anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, 
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint 
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything 
to do with this club:

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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  1 21:54:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:54:25 -0000
Subject: The movie trailer
In-Reply-To: <019301c0a294$9625e7e0$c83570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <97mgeh+2bee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13297



> Interesting that they made one of the teachers non-human: the one 
that looks a bit like Yoda from Star Wars?  I don't think that's 
Flitwick (it doesn't look like Warwick Davis for a start) - it has to 
be Binns.

I think the Yoda-like beings are goblins--if you see Harry looking 
around while walking alongside Hagrid, that's Gringott's.

I'm still not seeing the Snitch, or Neville, or most of the things 
people seem to be seeing in the flying scene...ah, technology, you 
two-faced god.

Amy Z





From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  1 21:57:44 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:57:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The movie trailer Yoda looking person
References: <97mgeh+2bee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <015a01c0a29a$a714dec0$1814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13298

I thought that the Yoda looking guy was a teller from Gringotts... 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amy Z 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 3:54 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The movie trailer




  > Interesting that they made one of the teachers non-human: the one 
  that looks a bit like Yoda from Star Wars?  I don't think that's 
  Flitwick (it doesn't look like Warwick Davis for a start) - it has to 
  be Binns.

  I think the Yoda-like beings are goblins--if you see Harry looking 
  around while walking alongside Hagrid, that's Gringott's.

  I'm still not seeing the Snitch, or Neville, or most of the things 
  people seem to be seeing in the flying scene...ah, technology, you 
  two-faced god.

  Amy Z



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From bkdelong at pobox.com  Thu Mar  1 22:06:09 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:06:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The movie trailer
In-Reply-To: <019301c0a294$9625e7e0$c83570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010301170427.05514a40@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13299

At 09:13 PM 03/01/2001 +0000, Neil Ward wrote:
>Interesting that they made one of the teachers non-human: the one that 
>looks a bit like Yoda from Star Wars?  I don't think that's Flitwick (it 
>doesn't look like Warwick Davis for a start) - it has to be Binns.

Yeah, it was confusing for them to put that picture in between the teachers 
- but I'm pretty sure it's the Goblin Bank Teller.

--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
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From klaatu at primenet.com  Thu Mar  1 22:07:13 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:07:13 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yes!!!  Snape!!...and Draco
In-Reply-To: <006a01c0a28c$afda14c0$1814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIECLDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13300

Not only will I take my 49-year-old self to the film without any kids
tagging along, but I have the sneaking feeling that my parents (78 and 74
years old) will want to go with me.  They are currently fighting over who
gets to read Azkaban first.

SML

==============================================
"Harry," said Lockhart, his large white teeth
gleaming in the sunlight as he shook his head.
"Harry, Harry, Harry."
Completely nonplussed, Harry said nothing.
   ---Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
==============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Doreen [mailto:nera at rconnect.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 1:18 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yes!!! Snape!!...and Draco


There is *no* doubt I will be seeing the film come November, though to
excuse myself, I think I'm going to have to take my little cousins or
the neighbour's kids so I don't look silly.  Or maybe not.
Just my 2 Knuts
*Al saunters vaguely westwards*

Not me ... I am going to take the night off, drive 45 miles to Mason City,
cuz our podunk lil town won't have it for a couple of months later... and I
am going to sit through it as many times as I can manage in the number of
showings that they have there. Although I am above shoving little kids out
of line, I am not above keeping them from jumping ahead of me.

Doreen, just a big kid when I want to be





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From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Mar  1 21:43:14 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:43:14 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The movie trailer
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010301170427.05514a40@brain-stream.com>
Message-ID: <01ca01c0a298$9ee7e460$c83570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 13301





> At 09:13 PM 03/01/2001 +0000, Neil Ward wrote:

> >Interesting that they made one of the teachers non-human: the one that
> >looks a bit like Yoda from Star Wars?  I don't think that's Flitwick (it
> >doesn't look like Warwick Davis for a start) - it has to be Binns.

> Yeah, it was confusing for them to put that picture in between the
teachers
> - but I'm pretty sure it's the Goblin Bank Teller.


Hmmm.  Well, not much point in a spoiler now, I guess (<g>)     Okay... I've
watched it again.  You're all right...it was a goblin (so, it probably is
Warwick Davis).

In the 'trio screaming' shot, Ron looks taller than the other two - am I
imagining that?

I really need to get a version I can pause/still (... and I can't wait for
the DVD).

Okay. I'm going to stop wittering on now...

Neil
________________________________________

flying_ford_anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

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From heiditandy at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 22:17:33 2001
From: heiditandy at yahoo.com (heiditandy at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 22:17:33 -0000
Subject: PS? SS?
Message-ID: <97mhpt+n3dk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13302

The trailer that I pulled from the WB site this morning says HP & the 
PHILOSOPHER'S STONE.
What have the rest of you seen?




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  1 22:21:50 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 22:21:50 -0000
Subject: SHIPs - trailer
In-Reply-To: <97mcnl+b6o8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97mi1u+b597@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13303

Rita, I believe it was, wrote:

> > I believe they married for love and Harry was, if not planned, at 
> > least wanted. Someone pointed out the other day that we don't 
know 
> > that Harry wasn't an unwelcome surprise, and I have suggested 
> > discussing the possibility that James and Lily were each engaged 
to 
> > someone they had chosen (maybe Severus for Lily) but broke those 
> > engagements to marry because the prophecy said that only their 
child 
> > could destroy the Dark Lord.

Zsenya wrote:
 
> Well, in PoA, Lily is described as shining with happiness in her 
> wedding picture.  Why would she be if she wasn't in love?
> 

Because she, and she alone, knows that the man standing behind her is 
in fact Snape, who has conked James on the noggin, stolen his 
fingernail for Polyjuice Potion, and usurped his place at his own 
wedding.  It can't last long, but for the moment she's with The Man 
She Truly Loves.

Sorry, I'm feeling a bit punchy from the trailer and all.

Zsenya said re: penny/percy:
> 
> I know, I've been thinking a lot about this one because of a fic 
that 
> I'm writing.  You'd think that she'd be chatting with Percy at the 
> Yule Ball, but she isn't even mentioned, is she?  In my mind, 
they're 
> together still, but I have nothing to base it on.

Well, she's already graduated.  Maybe they're still a couple but she 
didn't come along, though it seems like as fun a way to spend 
Christmas night as any.

Re: trailer:

Mea culpa, Mechanimagus--you had just written that we should put in 
spoiler space and in my reply I forgot to.

My 2 knuts is that those who haven't seen the trailer should probably 
avoid posts with trailer in the title.  When HP5 comes out, I'm just 
going to stay off the list until I've finished it.  But if the Mod 
Squad wants to impose a week-long spoiler rule or something, I will 
of course oblige.

Amy Z




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  1 22:24:07 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:24:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The movie trailer
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010301170427.05514a40@brain-stream.com> <01ca01c0a298$9ee7e460$c83570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <017101c0a29e$5623e7a0$1814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13304

With the Quick Time version, you can force the little arrow thingy (that moves when the movie is playing) to slow down or stop or back up. I just saw a scene with Harry, locked in his cupboard, looking out of the air-vent part of the door. I missed that my first 20-30 times through.
And right after the Hedwig/Harry scene, I see Hagrid walking towards a building .. what is the gray and white lumpy looking thing behind him? Is that Hedwig? Or what? I love the forbidden forest scene ... it looks so creepy and scary! I just love being creeped out and scared.
Doreen 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Neil Ward 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 3:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] The movie trailer






  > At 09:13 PM 03/01/2001 +0000, Neil Ward wrote:

  > >Interesting that they made one of the teachers non-human: the one that
  > >looks a bit like Yoda from Star Wars?  I don't think that's Flitwick (it
  > >doesn't look like Warwick Davis for a start) - it has to be Binns.

  > Yeah, it was confusing for them to put that picture in between the
  teachers
  > - but I'm pretty sure it's the Goblin Bank Teller.


  Hmmm.  Well, not much point in a spoiler now, I guess (<g>)     Okay... I've
  watched it again.  You're all right...it was a goblin (so, it probably is
  Warwick Davis).

  In the 'trio screaming' shot, Ron looks taller than the other two - am I
  imagining that?

  I really need to get a version I can pause/still (... and I can't wait for
  the DVD).

  Okay. I'm going to stop wittering on now...

  Neil
  ________________________________________

  flying_ford_anglia

  "Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
  was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
  of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

  Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
  to do with this club:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm







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From bkdelong at pobox.com  Thu Mar  1 22:33:46 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:33:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The movie trailer
In-Reply-To: <017101c0a29e$5623e7a0$1814a3d1@doreen>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010301170427.05514a40@brain-stream.com> <01ca01c0a298$9ee7e460$c83570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010301173152.05bce420@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13305

At 04:24 PM 03/01/2001 -0600, Doreen wrote:
>And right after the Hedwig/Harry scene, I see Hagrid walking towards a 
>building .. what is the gray and white lumpy looking thing behind him? Is 
>that Hedwig? Or what?

Actually it's after the forbidden forest scene. That's Hagrid dragging in 
the huge Christmas Tree.

>I love the forbidden forest scene ... it looks so creepy and scary! I just 
>love being creeped out and scared.

Yeah, you can see Fang bounding around.


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
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From margdean at erols.com  Thu Mar  1 22:52:57 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:52:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yes!!!  Snape!!...and Draco
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIECLDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3A9ED2C9.B18A4297@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13306

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:
> 
> Not only will I take my 49-year-old self to the film without any kids
> tagging along, but I have the sneaking feeling that my parents (78 and 74
> years old) will want to go with me.  They are currently fighting over who
> gets to read Azkaban first.

Well, if I left either my kids OR my husband at home, they'd kill
me...  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Mar  1 22:48:46 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:48:46 -0000
Subject: Trailer
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEIGDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13307

Heidi: "The trailer that I pulled from the WB site this morning says HP &
the PHILOSOPHER'S STONE."

Humph - I have only got SS and want PS! Which version did you go for? Now
the site seems to be down totally!


The Car has spoken and so spoiler space for the trailer follows.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

T
R
A
I
L
E
R

Neil: "In the 'trio screaming' shot, Ron looks taller than the other two -
am I imagining that?"

Camera angle. He is smaller in one of the other shots.


Ara: "Like everyone else, I've spent the day watching the trailer over and
over and over and obsessing over the little details.  I don't think
anyone's mentioned this yet today.  In the flying lesson scene, there are
two lines of students.  One is apparently the Gryffindor line (Harry, Ron,
and Hermione are in it) and one is apparently the Slytherin line (the blond
between two large boys is apparently Draco with Crabbe and Goyle).
 There are twelve students in the Gryffindor line, with (presumably)
Neville rapidly rising above them making thirteen.  There are thirteen
students in the Slytherin line.  In the charms class scene where Hermione
is levitating the feather, there are twelve students visible, with a
textbook in the upper right which may belong to a student out of shot.
This would add up to thirteen as well.  Perhaps the filmmakers decided that
Hogwarts would have thirteen students per house, per year, as in the
traditional witches' coven?
 That would equal 364 students at Hogwarts total, and 91 students at each
of the long tables.  Anyone want to check to see if there are 91 plates in
the Great Hall scene?
I *don't* think that JKR plans for there to be 13 students per house per
year, but I do think it's interesting that the filmmakers chose to do so
(so far as I can tell).  In addition, in the charms class scene, there are
Ron, Harry, Seamus (working with Harry), two boys behind them (Dean and
Neville?) and possibly two more boys in the back row on the left...plus the
student out of shot, if he's a boy...too many boys again."

I have mentioned some of the stuff about numbers earlier, but am now going
to confuse things a little further.

Slow motion of the scene with Hermione floating the feather past a
disgruntled Ron reveals a boy sitting behind Ron. This would be a problem
if he was a Gryffindor, but he appears to be wearing a blue tie. Which
gives us another problem. Why are Ravenclaws' in this class?

The textbook evidence for there being 13 is inconclusive. In the first part
of the scene it is possible to see a pile of textbooks behind Hermione, but
not anyone sitting near them. I would guess these are the ones you can then
see to the right of Neville later in the scene. This can also be noted by
pairing up people and textbooks.


Christian: "Which gives only 25-30 for each side of the table - there are
more than that in the picture.  I've been at family-gatherings in
restaurants with tables that long (25-30 per side)."

Re-evaluation (i.e. I learnt to count) gives nearer 40.


In the scene with Draco in it, it is worth noting that his tie is black.
This suggests that it is before they have been sorted. I am still not sure
if it is Ron or Harry that is in the foreground of this scene. My guess is
Ron as the hair does seem to have a red tinge and I can see no evidence of
glasses.


When Harry is holding the letter in his hand it includes one that has been
postmarked in the pile (you can see part of the postmark behind the
envelope with his Cupboard address). This is from when he goes to pick up
the post on the first day of the letters. The letters flying is still
seemingly in the wrong room but I will ignore that!



Simon (about to do a scene by scene commentary for it)




From hermione_heidi at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  1 22:53:32 2001
From: hermione_heidi at hotmail.com (Heidi Henshaw)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:53:32 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer screaming and running from?
Message-ID: <F123UQ9cAgjHXwKHvyo00001067@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13308





>Doreen wrote:
>Could the scene with them running and screaming, be the Sorting Hat scene, 
>where they see the Hogwarts ghosts go streaming through for the first time?
>

>I think that it is supposed to be the scene where Harry Ron and Hermione 
>all meet the troll in the bathroom.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 22:58:43 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 22:58:43 -0000
Subject: The movie trailer-- use quicktime!
In-Reply-To: <01ca01c0a298$9ee7e460$c83570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <97mk73+3cd2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13309


View it in Quicktime! It will let you pause!



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > At 09:13 PM 03/01/2001 +0000, Neil Ward wrote:
> 
> > >Interesting that they made one of the teachers non-human: the one 
that
> > >looks a bit like Yoda from Star Wars?  I don't think that's 
Flitwick (it
> > >doesn't look like Warwick Davis for a start) - it has to be 
Binns.
> 
> > Yeah, it was confusing for them to put that picture in between the
> teachers
> > - but I'm pretty sure it's the Goblin Bank Teller.
> 
> 
> Hmmm.  Well, not much point in a spoiler now, I guess (<g>)     
Okay... I've
> watched it again.  You're all right...it was a goblin (so, it 
probably is
> Warwick Davis).
> 
> In the 'trio screaming' shot, Ron looks taller than the other two - 
am I
> imagining that?
> 
> I really need to get a version I can pause/still (... and I can't 
wait for
> the DVD).
> 
> Okay. I'm going to stop wittering on now...
> 
> Neil
> ________________________________________
> 
> flying_ford_anglia
> 
> "Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
> was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
> of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]
> 
> Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
> to do with this club:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET  Thu Mar  1 23:08:19 2001
From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:08:19 -0500
Subject: trailer
Message-ID: <00b301c0a2a4$836144a0$13841440@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13310

    My daughter, son & I just watched the trailer. We were all excited!!! We think the "unhuman" thing is probably one of the trolls from Gringotts. I just wish we could see it on High instead of low resolution, the picture is so small. Drat!
Diana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Thu Mar  1 23:15:31 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:15:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: trailer
In-Reply-To: <00b301c0a2a4$836144a0$13841440@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010301181442.05b9c5f0@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13311

At 06:08 PM 03/01/2001 -0500, Diana Wisniewski wrote:
>We think the "unhuman" thing is probably one of the trolls from Gringotts

You mean the Goblin, yes? ;)


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET  Thu Mar  1 23:18:30 2001
From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:18:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Cho, Cedric, Ron etc.
References: <20010301210416.33417.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00c301c0a2a5$ef010960$13841440@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13312



> Friends on the list, am I the only one who feels we are WAY overanalyzing
> scenes meant to describe early teen crushes, friendships and puppy love? I
> mean, we met Harry when he turned 11; it's only to be expected he will
> "notice" girls at some point, and Cho's the first. The whole setup for a
> boy/girl mixer at the Yule Ball is just so evocative of that age group --
> who's going to ask me, whom shall I ask, what shall I wear, the boys who
> wait too long because they're still too embarrassed...I just have a hard
> time seeing it as anything more serious than that.
>   Lilah


Lilah,
    I completely agree with you. I can't see Jo putting anything else into
this scene. Having 4 teenage sons of my own, I have seen them moon over way
too many girls only to not be able to talk to them when they got the chance.
Harry is only 14 at this time, and most 14 year olds aren't quite sure how
to talk to the opposite sex yet. I don't think you can read any other
meaning in to it other than teenage anxity.
Diana




From Allyse at my-deja.com  Thu Mar  1 23:32:41 2001
From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 23:32:41 -0000
Subject: The movie trailer
In-Reply-To: <019301c0a294$9625e7e0$c83570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <97mm6p+pr1n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13313

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:

> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> Interesting that they made one of the teachers non-human: the one 
that looks a bit like Yoda from Star Wars?  I don't think that's 
Flitwick (it doesn't look like Warwick Davis for a start) - it has to 
be Binns.

I haven't seen the trailer yet (darn thing keeps freezing at 96K when 
I try to download it) but perhaps it's Professor Kettleburn, the 
teacher for CoMC that Hagrid replaced when Kettleburn wanted to 
retire "in order to enjoy more time with his remaining limbs." I 
always assumed it meant a non-human of some sort.

Of course, if I actually *do* see the trailer, the theory might be 
proven wrong. :)

Allyse




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Thu Mar  1 23:44:54 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:44:54 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Movie Trailer
Message-ID: <96.10bdd828.27d038f7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13314

In a message dated Wed, 28 Feb 2001  8:42:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, wings909 at aol.com writes:

<< In a message dated 02/28/2001 8:35:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hedwigthecat at aol.com writes:

<< Warner Bros. doesn't want to create another 'Star Wars' frenzy where fans 
go to see a film, they would otherwise not go to, just to see a trailer.
  >>
 
<<Instead they plan to cause the sites to crash because everyone tried to view 
the trailer at once....just like Star Wars (sigh).>>

Would you prefer to have to pay to go to a movie to see it?

<<Is this thing going to show on American TV stations any time soon?>>

It showed this morning, nationally.

Entertainment Tonight and shows of the like will have it this evening.


~Hedwig~
  



From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Thu Mar  1 23:47:32 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:47:32 -0000
Subject: Trailer - scene by scene guide
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEIIDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13315

Hello all,

After the spoiler space I have done a scene-by-scene guide to the trailer.
It should cover it all. Hope it is helpful.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

T
R
A
I
L
E
R

Trailer rating information.

WB logo. Music starts.

Harry locked in his cupboard, looking out from between the bars (camera in
cupboard with him). Person walking, then someone, probably Vernon, saying,
"There is no such thing as magic". (Chapter 2/3)

Loud bang, which cause freshly arrived WB logo to shake.

Logo breaks up into owls flying towards the camera.

Letter flying around a room with Harry jumping around attempting to catch
one. Dudley in Petunia's arms on a seat, both look frightened. Vernon half
protecting himself, half trying to get letters out of the way. Harry
catches one. Switches to Harry's PoV, looking at the front of a letter,
while holding other letter and postcard. (Chapter 3).

Letter moved out of shot and reveals Hogwarts Express on its travels.
Proper trains noises accompanying. Someone, possibly Dumbledore says, "You
have been accepted to Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry." (Chapter
6)

Shot has by now changed to one of Hagrid, walking away from camera on the
Hogsmeade train station platform. He is carrying a lantern. When voice
finishes we hear an owl hooting. (Chapter 6)

Doors to main hall open as McGonagall arrives at them with the first years
following behind her. Voice continues with, "Soon, you and your school
mates will join us here and your education in the magical arts shall
begin." At this point the music sounds particular imposing. (Chapter 7)

Shot of Harry, Ron and some of the other first years waiting to be sorted.
(chapter 7)

Switches to picture of Snape looking straight at us, I would assume this is
the point when he looks straight at Harry and so we are back in Harry's
PoV. Can also see the back of Quirrell's turban as he is facing Snape to
talk to him. (Chapter 7)

McGonagall looking strict. The Dumbledore raising his glass to the camera.
Assume this is a continuation of the start of year feast.

Door to hut on the rock is broken down. Hagrid comes in, Vernon and Petunia
are huddled together looking scared and Vernon is holding a gun. Thunder
and lightening outside. Dudley trying to get as far away as possible by
pressing himself right up against a wall. Hagrid looking upset and stuffing
his umbrella into his coat. (Chapter 4)

Gringotts. Harry and Hagrid walking down the centre of two rows of working
goblins. Various other people walking around, doing bank business. Harry
looks worried. (Chapter 5)

Charms lesson. Hermione is getting the feather to fly past a fed up and
annoyed looking Ron. Hermione is revelling in her ability to do the magic
and all the others are looking on at her successful spell, while they,
themselves, are unable to do it. (Chapter 10)

Outside shot of Hagrid walking along with Hermione, Ron and Harry in tow.
(Guesses?)

Harry walking through a snow filed quad with Hedwig on his arm. Possibly
Hedwig has just flown to him as she is flapping her wings. (Chapter 12)

Forbidden forest scene. With Fang and two people walking along. Choices are
Harry and Draco or Neville and Draco. Looking at the way they are
purposefully striding along I am guessing at Harry rather than Neville, as
he is more likely to be showing such purposefulness. (Chapter 15)

Hagrid dragging a Christmas tree into the school. (Chapter 12)

Draco looking into the camera. Pre sorting as Draco's toe is black. Someone
in foreground. Possibly Ron. (Chapter 5, 6 or 7)

Gringott goblin. (Chapter 5)

Harry, Hermione and Ron screaming at something then turning and running.
They continue to run through a classroom. (Guesses?)

Broomstick lesson. Harry's jumps straight into his hand, with Hermione
looking on and her broom not moving into shot. (Chapter 9)

Quidditch scene where Oliver Wood teaches Harry about the balls. Bludger
released that rockets off and Harry swivels head quickly up to follow its
path. (Chapter 10)

Slytherin and Gryffindor flying lesson. All have turned to look in the same
direction suggesting that Neville has just flown off too early and is about
to fall off his broom. (Chapter 9)

Hagrid says to Harry, "You are the boy who live."  (Chapter 4, but not
quite the line that Hagrid say, which is, "...you was only a baby, an' you
lived.")

End of year celebration feast with the students throwing their hats into
the air. Gryffindor colours visible in the background. We can only see
three houses, so suppose Slytherin are out of shot to the right and not
celebrating. (Chapter 17)

Harry looking into camera, possibly actually looking at Draco and laughing
at his annoyance at the change of house cup points. One of the Weasley's is
sitting next to Harry. One of the twins. (Chapter 17)

Harry Potter logo and lightening when it arrives on a cloudy background.
The add Sorcerer's Stone to this. Owl flies at the screen. Words replaced
by details of when the film comes out.



Simon
--
"I was a workaholic. I was up to three bottles of workahol a day." - Paul
Merton
---------------------------------------------------------------------------








From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Thu Mar  1 23:57:39 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:57:39 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Techie Question re: the Trailer
Message-ID: <3c.81cc47f.27d03bf3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13316

<<<Here's my question: I've tried the QuickTime version on Warner Bros. and
now on Darkhorizons.  Neither version has any audio going.  My speakers
are working, and like I said, I heard it all on the RealPlayer version.
So, why no sound on the QuickTime versions?  Now that I've taken the
time to download the high resolution QuickTime version (which is
*phenomenal* btw -- Cassie, if you didn't figure out how to pause it on
Draco, email me -- with this you can).  But, I want the audio *and* the
video together now!  Help!!

Penny>>

There is audio on all versions.  You have to not only turn your speakers all the way up...but also the right hand corner speaker button on your PC...sorry folks, don't know what it is for MAC's.

Hope it works for you Penny.


~Hedwig~


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From bkdelong at pobox.com  Thu Mar  1 23:58:48 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:58:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer - scene by scene guide
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEIIDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac .uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010301185737.05613ec0@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13317

At 11:47 PM 03/01/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>After the spoiler space I have done a scene-by-scene guide to the trailer.
>It should cover it all. Hope it is helpful.

Great Job Simon....I'm finishing up one of my own complete with pictures. 
It'll be posted to The Leaky Cauldron soon. I'm including the actual text 
from the book as well.


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From shades_of_black at mail.com  Fri Mar  2 00:12:29 2001
From: shades_of_black at mail.com (shades_of_black at mail.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 00:12:29 -0000
Subject: Trailer - scene by scene guide
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEIIDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <97mohd+l9os@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13318

*snicker* Using the already provided spoiler space:

> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> F
> O
> R
> 
> T
> R
> A
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 

 That would have been annoying to do myself. Thank you, Simon.


> 
> Outside shot of Hagrid walking along with Hermione, Ron and Harry 
in tow.
> (Guesses?)
> 

 I figured that this would be one of the times the Trio go down to 
visit Hagrid at his hut....but does he ever accompany them down? 
Could it be before a Norbert scene?

 The Bludger That Flies (lol, that sounds like some spy password) - I 
thought that was the snitch?? It looks gold when it flies by...

> 
> Harry, Hermione and Ron screaming at something then turning and 
running.
> They continue to run through a classroom. (Guesses?)
> 

 I can't figure this one out. The scene starts with them looking 
distinctly upwards, and then their mouths drop open in horror and 
they scream, then flee. There are only a few horrific scenes in the 
book that they all witness. Hell, there are only a few horrific 
scenes in the book at all. There is the Fluffy thing, but there isn't 
Neville or pajamas, so that's out. There's the scene where they walk 
in on Snape and Filch, but only Harry sees that, right? There's the 
part where they are after the stone, but there isn't a class room 
down there *smacks forehead* What scene have I left out? There can't 
be much else. Ron and Harry walk in on the troll...lovely. Well, I've 
found several things that it isn't. >_< Help.


Are we sure the Weasley in the celebration scene isn't Percy?

Morsus Crustum




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar  2 00:15:41 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:15:41 -0600
Subject: Techie Question re: the Trailer
References: <3c.81cc47f.27d03bf3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A9EE62D.C086B98C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13319

Hi --

hedwigthecat at aol.com wrote:

> There is audio on all versions.  You have to not only turn your
> speakers all the way up...but also the right hand corner speaker
> button on your PC...sorry folks, don't know what it is for MAC's.

Nothing doing.  No audio on my QuickTime version.  I just don't
understand.  I feel certain it's just something I'm missing.  I've got
AudioPCIMixer (that's what I see when I click on the right hand speaker
button that you mentioned).  It shows the volume is up.  QuickTime shows
that AudioPCIMixer is the audio component installed.  Believe me, the
volume is turned all the way up -- scared the beejeebers out of me when
a message downloaded a second ago.  <g>

If anyone has any thoughts, I'd sure appreciate it.  Off to see if I can
tape it on ET.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lhunneb at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 00:20:08 2001
From: lhunneb at yahoo.com (lhunneb at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 00:20:08 -0000
Subject: Now that HE is back, Harry should have special permission to...
Message-ID: <97movo+crns@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13320

Now that Voldemort is back in his body, I think that the headmaster 
should petition the Ministry to get Harry special permission to use 
magic during the summer to protect himself, if necessary.  After 
all, "he who should not be named" won't hold back just because it's 
summer vacation!




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Fri Mar  2 00:26:00 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:26:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trailer - scene by scene guide
In-Reply-To: <97mohd+l9os@eGroups.com>
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEIIDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010301191405.05525ec0@brain-stream.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13321

At 12:12 AM 03/02/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>  I figured that this would be one of the times the Trio go down to
>visit Hagrid at his hut....but does he ever accompany them down?
>Could it be before a Norbert scene?

That sounds right.

>  The Bludger That Flies (lol, that sounds like some spy password) - I
>thought that was the snitch?? It looks gold when it flies by...

No...for the first frame it's a bludger and quaffle in the box. Then Oliver 
Wood (Sean Biggerstaff) unchains the bludger (grr. what happened to the 
strap?) and it shoots into the air. Harry looks stunned and then we see 
what looks like the snitch flying up, with Wood and Harry staring at it as 
it flys out of camera range. Keep in mind this is a trailer and even the 
close scenes don't have to be tied together.

>There's the
>part where they are after the stone, but there isn't a class room
>down there *smacks forehead* What scene have I left out?

Not quite sure about the "scream" scene. But similar to the bludger/snitch 
scene....we may have moved to where they're running away from Filtch. I 
think they run through a trophy room and maybe a dungeon/classroom on the way.

>Are we sure the Weasley in the celebration scene isn't Percy?

Take a look at the picture of the actor playing Percy - I think you're right:
http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/movie40.jpg

Also you can see a guy directly behind Harry with black dreadlocks - much 
different hair then the black kid in several other scenes most likely 
playing Dean Thomas. I think that's Lee Jordan.

--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
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From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Fri Mar  2 00:53:25 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 00:53:25 -0000
Subject: Trailer
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOEIKDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13322

Heidi: "The trailer that I pulled from the WB site this morning says HP &
the PHILOSOPHER'S STONE.
What have the rest of you seen?"

All the ones I have pulled from WB have been SS. I have tried going through
www.harrypotter.co.uk for the main site, but have always ended up in the
same place and got the SS trailers.

I have just been to Newsround
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/potter/news/hpmovie4.shtml), however, and
have got a PS. It is interesting to note that the PS trailer I got from
them does not have a release date but the SS trailers do.


Countdown.com has some screenshots up now. Look at:
http://www.countingdown.com/features?feature_id=12560 - I could have done a
lot better and not written something about the flying lesson class watching
the golden snitch! Oh wait have found a more comprehensive lot of pictures
on their site now.


B.K.: "Great Job Simon....I'm finishing up one of my own complete with
pictures. It'll be posted to The Leaky Cauldron soon. I'm including the
actual text from the book as well."

I was feeling too lazy to type it all in. I was guessing that you, or
someone else, would do that kind of detailed job to save me the trouble.
Mine was just a quickly knocked out for discussion purposes.

I look forward to reading your guide, including book excerpts.

> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> F
> O
> R
>
> T
> R
> A
> I
> L
> E
> R
>

Simon: "Outside shot of Hagrid walking along with Hermione, Ron and Harry
in tow."
Dervish (or whatever the correct name is today - I can't keep up): "I
figured that this would be one of the times the Trio go down to visit
Hagrid at his hut....but does he ever accompany them down? Could it be
before a Norbert scene?"

I cannot find a situation where he accompanies them down or when they leave
together. I have only skimmed the books quickly,, so could easily have
missed it.


Simon: "Harry, Hermione and Ron screaming at something then turning and
running. They continue to run through a classroom."
Dervish: "I can't figure this one out. The scene starts with them looking
distinctly upwards, and then their mouths drop open in horror and they
scream, then flee. There are only a few horrific scenes in the book that
they all witness. Hell, there are only a few horrific scenes in the book at
all. There is the Fluffy thing, but there isn't Neville or pajamas, so
that's out. There's the scene where they walk in on Snape and Filch, but
only Harry sees that, right? There's the part where they are after the
stone, but there isn't a class room down there *smacks forehead* What scene
have I left out? There can't be much else. Ron and Harry walk in on the
troll...lovely. Well, I've found several things that it isn't. >_< Help."

I have looked at all of the above mentioned bits, but as stated none of
them fit the bill. I then looked for other instances of the three together,
but found nothing suitable.


Dervish: "Are we sure the Weasley in the celebration scene isn't Percy?"

Well Harry is meant to be seated between Ron and Hermione, but that does
not seem to be the case. Percy is heard to be talking to the other prefects
and telling them that Ron is his brother. I took this to mean that the
Gryffindor prefects are all congregated together and so it is unlikely to
be him in the shot.


B.K.: "Take a look at the picture of the actor playing Percy - I think
you're right: http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/movie40.jpg

Also you can see a guy directly behind Harry with black dreadlocks - much
different hair then the black kid in several other scenes most likely
playing Dean Thomas. I think that's Lee Jordan."

The picture does suggest that it might be Percy, but if that is Lee with
the dreadlocks then it is more likely to be one of the twins with him. I
have no pictures of the twins for comparison purposes.


Dervish: "The Bludger That Flies (lol, that sounds like some spy
password) - I thought that was the snitch?? It looks gold when it flies
by..."
B.K.: "No...for the first frame it's a bludger and quaffle in the box. Then
Oliver Wood (Sean Biggerstaff) unchains the bludger (grr. what happened to
the strap?) and it shoots into the air. Harry looks stunned and then we see
what looks like the snitch flying up, with Wood and Harry staring at it as
it flys out of camera range."

Though it looks golden in that scene, the picture ties in with it having
come straight out of the box when we see Wood unleashing a bludger. At that
scene in the book the Snitch is not let out and at the games the balls are
released by the referee. Also the person in the bottom left corner of the
picture, who I presume is Harry, is holding a rounder bat. Suggesting it is
a bludger as you do not need such an item against a snitch. Also where does
the Snitch go in that box? There seems to be no space for it!



I wish they had used Hedwig for the owl scenes. Also annoyed that there is
not a good shot of Hedwig in the trailer. The already released picture is
much better.

I am having fun discussing this, but will have to give in and go to bed
soon!


Simon
--
Come and talk about anything with other Harry Potter fans:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From shades_of_black at mail.com  Fri Mar  2 01:53:01 2001
From: shades_of_black at mail.com (shades_of_black at mail.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 01:53:01 -0000
Subject: Trailer
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOEIKDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <97mudt+tu8l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13323


> 
> Countdown.com has some screenshots up now. Look at:
> http://www.countingdown.com/features?feature_id=12560 - I could 
have done a
> lot better and not written something about the flying lesson class 
watching
> the golden snitch! Oh wait have found a more comprehensive lot of 
pictures
> on their site now.
> 

 The screen shots were nice. But the one of Malfoy sucked. If they 
would have stilled it a fraction of a second later he wouldn't look 
so bad. Honestly.

> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> >
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> >
> > F
> > O
> > R
> >
> > T
> > R
> > A
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> >
> 
> Simon: "Outside shot of Hagrid walking along with Hermione, Ron and 
Harry
> in tow."
> Dervish (or whatever the correct name is today - I can't keep 
up): "I
> figured that this would be one of the times the Trio go down to 
visit
> Hagrid at his hut....but does he ever accompany them down? Could it 
be
> before a Norbert scene?"
> 
> I cannot find a situation where he accompanies them down or when 
they leave
> together. I have only skimmed the books quickly,, so could easily 
have
> missed it.
>


> 
> Simon: "Harry, Hermione and Ron screaming at something then turning 
and
> running. They continue to run through a classroom."
> Dervish: "I can't figure this one out. The scene starts with them 
looking
> distinctly upwards, and then their mouths drop open in horror and 
they
> scream, then flee. There are only a few horrific scenes in the book 
that
> they all witness. Hell, there are only a few horrific scenes in the 
book at
> all. There is the Fluffy thing, but there isn't Neville or pajamas, 
so
> that's out. There's the scene where they walk in on Snape and 
Filch, but
> only Harry sees that, right? There's the part where they are after 
the
> stone, but there isn't a class room down there *smacks forehead* 
What scene
> have I left out? There can't be much else. Ron and Harry walk in on 
the
> troll...lovely. Well, I've found several things that it isn't. >_< 
Help."
> 
> I have looked at all of the above mentioned bits, but as stated 
none of
> them fit the bill. I then looked for other instances of the three 
together,
> but found nothing suitable.
> 
> 
 The really odd thing is that my mother just finished reading PS for 
the first time this morning, and when she saw the trailer she 
said "But there isn't any scene like that!" My sentiments exactly. 
When they run from Filch they are in their pajamas, so it isn't that 
either. They never run through a classroom together, damn it! I'm 
determined to skim the entire book tonight to determine what this 
could possibly be. Maybe they changed a scene? Stranger things have 
happened, you know.


> Dervish: "Are we sure the Weasley in the celebration scene isn't 
Percy?"
> 
> Well Harry is meant to be seated between Ron and Hermione, but that 
does
> not seem to be the case. Percy is heard to be talking to the other 
prefects
> and telling them that Ron is his brother. I took this to mean that 
the
> Gryffindor prefects are all congregated together and so it is 
unlikely to
> be him in the shot.
> 
> 

 I have yet to see a twin picture, so I can't tell who it is. It 
looks a *lot* like Percy, but it's true that he was speaking to the 
other prefects in that scene...so who knows? But if you'll look in 
that scene, the other people behind Harry look older, so maybe once 
everyone is standing up and cheering, they're mixed together?

I have noticed one thing that annoys me to no end: They made 
Hermione's hair nice and bushy, but Harry's isn't messed up at all. 
And am I the only one who noticed that in the smile scene (end) it 
looks positively *brown*?

Dervish, etc.




From msl at fc.net  Fri Mar  2 02:15:32 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 02:15:32 -0000
Subject: Chapter 32 Summary - Flesh, Bone, and Blood
In-Reply-To: <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97mvo4+9mpq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13324

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1.  When Peter Pettigrew is serving the dark lord is he always 
> called wormtail?  As if his name was changed once he went over to 
> the dark side.

I think Voldemort uses the name Wormtail for Peter specifically to 
mock him.   I imagine that once upon a time, Wormtail was a name for 
which Peter had affection, as it was the name his friends 
affectionately bestowed upon him.  When Voldmort utters the name, it 
solidifies into Peter's shame and damnation.  It brands him a traitor 
and a murderer and reinforces Peter's self-loathing--which in turn 
reinforces his willingness to toady for Voldemort.

> Do the other Death Eaters know who Wormtail is?

Probably.  They probably look on him with contempt.  After all, the 
only reason to follow Voldemort is because he offers a quick avenue 
to power, and V's supporters are too shrewd not to understand that V 
considers them his tools.  To keep their pride they regard V as their 
tool in turn and, I'm sure, all would be happy to betray V for the 
sake of their own advancement, and V knows this and relishes it 
because it makes ruling them through fear all the more delicious.  
BUT...Wormtail doesn't fit this pattern.  He's too clingy, too 
subservient, too loyal in his treason, and V's other followers 
really, REALLY, resent, I bet, being pulled from their comfortable 
lives back into V's dangerous plan, all because Wormtail couldn't 
figure out a way to stand on his own two bloody feet.

 
> 2. Were you upset by Cedric's death?  Was it gratuitous or vital to 
> the plot and / or Lord Voldemort's character development?

Fairly vital to the development of Voldemort and Pettigrew, not 
visceral enough to be "gratuitous."  Extremely vital to Harry's 
development.

> 3.  Why didn't Wormtail bleed to death after he cut off his arm?

I imagine him pressing his bleeding stump into his side while he 
finishes Voldemort's spell, then collapsing against the cauldron, 
still clutching his stump as he loses strength and starts to bleed to 
death.  Voldemort gives Peter his new arm as sort of an afterthough, 
because Peter remembered to ask for his reward before passing out.

Marvin Long
Austin, TX




From purdymango1 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 03:11:50 2001
From: purdymango1 at yahoo.com (Teek)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:11:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer SPOILERS
In-Reply-To: <200103011316.AA1978269854@pressroom.com>
Message-ID: <20010302031150.1862.qmail@web4704.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13325


--- Amy Gourley <amy at pressroom.com> wrote:
Either one of the twins or Percy? Looks
> like Percy to me from the actor's picture I've seen.
> 
> Is that the snitch flying off in the Quidditch scene? It looks a
> little big than I thought if that is the snitch. The brooms look a
> little bushy to me too. I guess those are my only negative comments
> so far.
>

It looks like Percy to me, but if you look next to him, there's a boy
in dreadlocks, who I'm pretty sure must be Lee. But it looks like
PERCY and not like one of the shorter and stockier twins, so I'm
hoping that that's who it is, and he just happens to be next to
Feorge and Greds' best friend.

I for one have always like Rupert as Ron, despite the height thing. I
think Daniel might be a little on the chubby side for my version of
Harry, something about being kept in a cupboad makes me think of him
as extremely pale and skrawny. Knobby knees and all. Hermione is
adorable, which I can deal with it being slightly uncannon cos I
always thought she was cuter than she was described. Wingardum
Levoooosa, Ron. 

I'm hardly a Snape fan, but I must admit he looks good.
Draco seems to have the right attitude, but he just doens't have the
pointy faced look I was expecting, and Dumbledore looks... Old.
Grizzled, as someone said. And Minerva is no where near that age in
my mind. 

Wondering where they picked up those extra 2-4 students, not liking
the broomsticks (too big, but maybe they just look that way around
children?), loving the robes and the forest, an I can't wait to see
the quidditch. And Gringotts looks GREAT. 

ButI want to hear them talk! =pouts=

Loved the trailer, watching it over and over again. Feeling more like
a pedophile than ever, but damn, I love Harry half to death. 
-Teek


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From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Mar  2 03:11:09 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 20:11:09 -0700
Subject: Thoughts on Trailer & movie
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIEDCDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13326

Okay...Having watched the trailer at least 25 times, I thought I'd throw out
a few comments:

1.  That is Richard Harris's voice saying "Dear Mr. Potter, you have been
accepted..." etc).  I've heard enough of him in other movies to recognize
it, even though it is pitched much lower than he normally speaks.

2.  Rupert Grint as Ron -- I think he's adorable.  He reminds me a bit of
very young Ron Howard playing Opie Taylor on the Andy Griffith show (from
the 1960's).  I know he's not tall like in the book, but honestly I've
always pictured him as the same height as Harry, just because I can't
imagine Harry having to crane his neck upwards to talk to Ron as much as
they do talk.  Rupert has a wonderfully expressive face, and I think he'll
do great.

3.  Hermione is perfect -- that smug look on her face as she levitates the
feather... HA!  Wonderful.

4.  The screaming scene.  Probably this is when they see Fluffy the 3-Headed
Dog.  I know they are not in their pajamas, and Neville does not appear to
be with them, but some things are expendable when filming a book.  It's not
really necessary for Neville to be with them, and they could just as well be
wandering the halls at midnight in their black robes.  We can't expect every
detail to be identical to the book.  Someone has already mentioned that the
snake scene in the zoo might be cut.  It's really not necessary for us to
know, in the first film, that Harry can talk to snakes.  It's a wonderful
scene and I hope it's included, but I can see where it could be eliminated
for the sake of screentime (wonder if the movie will be two hours or only an
hour and a half?)

5.  Snape is luscious.  YUM YUM YUM.

6.  Draco looks perfect too.  Even in that itty bitty 2 or 3 seconds we see
him, you can tell he's DRACO.

7.  The train doesn't have very many cars -- how many students can actually
fit on that train they show?  Students who live nearer to Scotland must
travel some other way... Perhaps on another train, or on broomsticks, or
with Floo Powder into Hogsmeade, or maybe their Muggle parents might even
DRIVE them to school.

8.  Where's McGonagall's spectacles?  Put them on, Maggie!!

9.  They've spliced the scenes of the first Flying Class with the scenes of
Oliver Wood showing Harry the Bludger, so it looks like it's all the same
scene in the trailer, but I'm sure that the scene where the whole class
looks up is when Neville takes off, and the scene where Harry's head whips
up is the next day (?) when Wood takes him out to practice.  The Snitch is
not visible in the box they show in the trailer... just one big Quaffle and
two bludgers.

10.  Harry's hair does not appear black, and is not as messy as it's
described in the book, but Daniel is so cute I could just eat him up.  I
hope his head is screwed on straight and that he doesn't get his ego messed
up by the publicity and the fame.

OK, I'll stop talking now...
SML


==============================================




From wings909 at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 03:26:26 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:26:26 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer SPOILERS
Message-ID: <fe.3067123.27d06ce2@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13327

How many times has everyone seen the trailer?  LOL, I think I'm on my 100th 
time, seriously.  

Personally, it was worth the whole hour and a half download just to be able 
to see Snape (Alan Rickman) over and over and over and over....wished I could 
see Ian Hart as Quirrel, but I'm sure as time goes by we'll get another 
trailer, maybe with dialogue!

I love Harry, Hagrid, Hermione, Ron, and Malfoy. They are all exactly as I 
pictured them in my head.  Wish we could get a close up of Harry and the scar 
though.

I love McGonagall!  She is going to rock!

Someone mentioned the broomsticks: Didn't JKR describe the school broomsticks 
as being "old with the twigs stuck out at odd angles"?  That's not the Nimbus 
2000 he's holding : )

Well, I'm off to watch the trailer again...

Cheers,
Paula 
Gryffindor



From recla at magick.net  Fri Mar  2 03:30:36 2001
From: recla at magick.net (Dennis)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:30:36 -0000
Subject: The Movie Trailer
Message-ID: <97n44s+akgc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13328

Woweeee !!  Loved it..
Saw it on FOX this morning, the Sorcerer's Stone Version.  It had a 
date of comming --- November 16th.

I downloaded (DSL at work) the Philosopher's Stone Version, 30 Megs 
in AVI format.  Now I and sit and enjoy playing it over and over and 
over again.  At the end of it is just said Comming --- SOON.

I saw a note somewhere, that there were some additional ones comming 
soon.

Can't wait for the movie.. Ummm wonder If Diann and I can get tickets 
now ???  ha !!







From shades_of_black at mail.com  Fri Mar  2 03:33:19 2001
From: shades_of_black at mail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:33:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer SPOILERS
Message-ID: <386575523.983503999332.JavaMail.root@web597-mc>

No: HPFGUIDX 13329

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

Y
A
D
A
,

Y
A
D
A
,

Y
A
D
A
,

Brooms: Okay. I happen to *really* like the booms. They look old fashioned,
like everything in the Wizarding world (think quills). IMO, they are
perfect.

Percy vs. The Twins: Both have problems - Percy should be with the prefects,
one twin is almost always with the other. Sigh. The world may never know
(until November).

I think that it's a big, fat, contradiction to make McGonagal old. If
Dumbledore is 150, than (duh) wizarding years work way differently than
normal years. If she's seventy, she's not going to look old. She'd look
about forty-something, no?

I'm an Alan Rickman fan, so I think that Snape is perfect, but I always
envisioned him having a bit of a gotee. Actually, I pictured Snape looking a
lot like Rickman in Robin Hood: Prince of Theives. The hair, the beard...it
worked. But this is okay.

I really liked the Gringott's Goblins. I was so afraid they would make them
look corny, but they don't! Yea!

<Loved the trailer, watching it over and over again. Feeling more like
a pedophile than ever, but damn, I love Harry half to death.>

ROFL! Join the club, m'dear. Tom Felton was rather adorible, too. Sigh.

Morsus Crustum/Dervish/Blythe Spirit


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From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Fri Mar  2 03:10:29 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:10:29 -0500
Subject: New Harry Potter Song
Message-ID: <002f01c0a2c6$56bfab40$7f5fd63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13330

Sung to the tune of "Feelin' Alright"  by Dave Mason of Traffic

Feelin' Alright  ( Harry's version)  by Randy Estes

Seems I've got to have a change of scene.
"Cause every night I have the strangest dreams.
Awakened by the pain coming from my scar.
A green flash, a woman's voice, it's so bizarre.
I've got to leave before I start to scream
But Voldemort's alive, and coming after me !

You Feelin' Alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.
Well you feelin' alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.

Well, they say I saved the world from He who shan't be Named.
But he just killed my folks, you know, Lily and James.
And when I think of them, I start to cry.
I just can't waste my time, I must keep dry
Gotta learn my magic spells, cant' stop and wonder why.
"Cause there's too much to do before I die.

You Feelin' Alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.
Well you feelin' alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.

I saw my family while lookin' in the mirror.
Though Dumbledore said stop and let your mind clear.
But that was then, now it's today
I can't stop now, I've got dragons to evade.
Till Voldemort comes back in a bowl next to a grave
With a brand new body, and Wormtail as his slave.

You Feelin' Alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.
Well you feelin' alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.








From wings909 at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 03:35:12 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:35:12 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Movie Trailer
Message-ID: <56.7e907f4.27d06ef0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13331

In a message dated 03/01/2001 10:30:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
recla at magick.net writes:

<< Can't wait for the movie.. Ummm wonder If Diann and I can get tickets 
 now ???  ha !! >>

I'm wondering though, if they don't do like they did with Star Wars and start 
selling the tickets like a month in advance.  LOL, it sure was fun standing 
in line that day talking with other fans to get tickets.  

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From recla at magick.net  Fri Mar  2 03:40:16 2001
From: recla at magick.net (Dennis Recla)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:40:16 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Movie Trailer
In-Reply-To: <97n44s+akgc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBLMIEAKMHNMICJHAHMEBMDCAA.recla@magick.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13332

Sorry.. I should have read my post.. ARRGGhhhh   excuse the errors..  :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis [mailto:recla at magick.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 7:31 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Movie Trailer


Woweeee !!  Loved it..
Saw it on FOX this morning, the Sorcerer's Stone Version.  It had a
date of comming --- November 16th.

I downloaded (DSL at work) the Philosopher's Stone Version, 30 Megs
in AVI format.  Now I and sit and enjoy playing it over and over and
over again.  At the end of it is just said Comming --- SOON.

I saw a note somewhere, that there were some additional ones comming
soon.

Can't wait for the movie.. Ummm wonder If Diann and I can get tickets
now ???  ha !!





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From inyron at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 03:41:43 2001
From: inyron at yahoo.com (inyron at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:41:43 -0000
Subject: Yes!!!  Snape!!
In-Reply-To: <A74E2D40FE@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <97n4pn+k1a6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13333

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> I AM at work and I gasped when they showed Alan.  Then I burst  
> into uncontrollable laughter.  Several people came by and I had to 
> play it over again so they could see it.  I'm rather embarrassed 
now 
> because all the talk about me lusting after a long haired old man.  
> Ha ha.
> 
> Darn it....I KNEW this would happen when it was announced Alan 
> took the part.  
> 
> That last shot of Harry's smile is priceless.  Absolutely priceless.



My roommate was giving me weird looks all afternoon.  I don't know 
whether it was from me playing the trailer for an hour straight, or 
from me repeatedly freezing it on Snape and giggling. Luckily, she 
thinks he's cute too.  Don't worry Rachel, Alan gets thumbs up from 
19 year old college girls here.  I love his expression.  Less Evil 
Dictator-y, more, "Oh my God... that's James Potter's son!" But still 
slimy enough to be the minor bad guy/red herring.

inyron

* inyron's first post *







From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar  2 03:52:18 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:52:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 32 Filk
References: <982924096.448.54607.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c0a2cc$2e6d0a60$8fc54b0c@cq5wu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13334

Filk on Chapter 32

Dedicated to Carol Estes

(To the tune of I Just Can't Wait to Be King, from The Lion King)

(The Scene: The Cemetery at Little Hangleton. HARRY is tied against the
tombstone of Tom Riddle, Sr. WORMTAIL is scurrying about, making
preparations to restore the shrunken and hideous VOLDEMORT to corporeal
form)

VOLDEMORT
I've got the elements in place, so enemies watch out!

WORMTAIL
He's about to show once more that he's a guy with clout

VOLDEMORT
I've said ta-ta to Tirana
Adios Albania
Now say hello to tyranny
Catch that Voldy-mania

WORMTAIL(displaying a vial of Harry's blood and the bones of Riddle, Sr)
All he needs is that blood and flesh and bone

VOLDEMORT
Oh, I just can't wait to be cloned!

WORMTAIL(spoken)
I've rather just begun heating the cauldron, my master, if you please.....

VOLDEMORT
Ev'ryone sayin' Yes Sir

WORMTAIL (spoken)
Yes Sir!

VOLDEMORT
Ev'ryone sayin' Right Sir

HARRY (spoken)
Yeah right

VOLDEMORT
No one daring to say No

WORMTAIL (spoken)
No way

VOLDEMORT
No one sayin' my name

WORMTAIL (spoken)
No say

VOLDEMORT
Free to inflict great dismay
Free then to enslave my prey
Now it's time is finally here to execute my plan
As I ask my servant here to lend a helping hand

(WORMTAIL "grips the dagger and swings it upward")

HARRY
I've gotta keep my fingers crossed that Voldy's scheme flunks out
Out of luck, or out of sorts, or please just drown him out

WORMTAIL
He's on the verge of being re-enthroned!

VOLDEMORT & WORMTAIL
Oh I/he just can't wait to be cloned!

VOLDEMORT
No one else will be left
When I finish off the upright
After that you'll see my grand theft
Is really gonna take flight!

HARRY
Not yet!

(WORMTAIL places VOLDEMORT inside the huge bubbling cauldron)

HARRY (simultaneous with below)
This horror can no longer be postponed
Will his potion work? - it is still unknown
If it fails, hallelujahs shall be intoned

WORMTAIL (simultaneous with above)
This magic can no longer be postponed
Will his potion work? - it is still unknown
If it fails, lamentations shall be intoned

(The freshly resurrected VOLDEMORT rises triumphantly from the cauldron)

VOLDEMORT (simultaneous with below)
Oh, I just feel great, I've been cloned!
Oh, I just feel great, I've been cloned!

VOLDEMORT & WORMTAIL (simultaneous with below)
Oh, I just feel great, I've/he's been cloned!

HARRY (simultaneous with above)
Oh, I just hate to see he's been cloned!
Oh, I just hate to see he's been cloned!
Oh, I just hate to see he's been cloned!

    - CMC

AUTHOR'S NOTE: I realize that "cloning" is not the best description of the
process that Lord Voldemort undergoes in Chapter 32, but I needed a one
syllable word with a "K" sound.

Tirana is the capital of Albania






From inyron at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 03:58:10 2001
From: inyron at yahoo.com (inyron at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:58:10 -0000
Subject: Trailer SPOILERS
In-Reply-To: <386575523.983503999332.JavaMail.root@web597-mc>
Message-ID: <97n5oi+jeti@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13335

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Morsus Crustum <shades_of_black at m...> 
wrote:
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> 
> Y
> A
> D
> A
> ,
> 
> Y
> A
> D
> A
> ,
> 
> Y
> A
> D
> A

> Percy vs. The Twins: Both have problems - Percy should be with the 
prefects,
> one twin is almost always with the other. Sigh. The world may never 
know


Do we have any pictures of the twins to compare?  Do we know who's 
playing them?  The imdb has a no listing for them, even though they 
have listings for everyone from Percy to Pansy Parkinson.  I would 
think the twins should have a larger part than Percy- I hope their 
roles aren't cut down at all.

inyron





From shades_of_black at mail.com  Fri Mar  2 04:42:27 2001
From: shades_of_black at mail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:42:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Trailer SPOILERS
Message-ID: <380968489.983508147931.JavaMail.root@web572-mc>

No: HPFGUIDX 13336

> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
>
> Y
> A
> D
> A
> ,
>
> Y
> A
> D
> A
> ,
>
> Y
> A
> D
> A


<Do we have any pictures of the twins to compare?  Do we know who's
playing them?>

I have yet to see a picture, but I belive there is one floating around out
there...
I figured out why I don't care for Dumbledore: What's with the Boy George
get up? For some reason, I always pictured him in a nice blue, if not black.
Maroon? Patches? What the. . .?

Also: The Trio and Hagrid scene - If you thumb through PS/SS, you will see
that the Dream Team don't become friends until *very* close to the end;
there isn't much that and the Scream scene could be. It helps narrow it down
a bit. But I have yet to figure out anything that resembles these. I do like
the notion that the Scream scene is spliced with something else, since we
don't see them enter the classroom.

I just love the how we get a glimpse of Hagrid's umbrella. That's so funny!
And if you want a laugh - check out the Hermione/Ron scene (mua-ha-ah, just
had to write that!) with the feather in slow motion. Emma Watson's acting is
so exaggerated it's rather humorous to see. It looks like Harry, two seats
over from Ron, so that means the one next to Ron is Seamus, according to the
book....so I am presuming that is Lavender on the other side of Harry, and
Parvati next to her. The one farthest from Harry looks like she's black, but
then I suppose "Parvati" is an Indian sort of name, so the looks are about
right. Nitpicking, I know. Sorry.

As for the Harry and Snape scene - I would think that if Harry's scar was
hurting, he would look more like he was in pain, not like he was smelling
something nasty, but what can you do? I think the shocked, horrified look on
Snape's face is *amazing*. You can just see what he's thinking. Wonderful.

I'm dying to know what the scene with Draco really is. The way his head
snaps up, you'd think it was one of the insult-exchanging things, but that
doesn't appear to be Harry, and Draco's tie is black. Arrgh. I am starting
to wonder just how much they changed around....

MC


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From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 05:02:59 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 05:02:59 -0000
Subject: You guessed it- another trailer post!
Message-ID: <97n9i3+lc64@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13337

Hi you guys!

Anyone remember me? I feel like I've been gone a LONG time, but 
perhaps I've just been really busy lately. Anyway I finally caught up 
(hurrah!) and I just HAD to comment on the trailer. 

No surprise that I loved it. A lot of the images really matched the 
ones in my head some didn't but that's ok. A few questions- What is 
that voice over supposed to be. Someone said Dumbledore, but hey that 
doesn't even sound British (at least not to my sensitive American 
ears...) 

For the most part however it was really great especially Draco. That 
look-my God that IS Draco! Hermione's smug expression is almost 
exactly like one of my friends when she was younger. (A very Hermione 
type, BTW.)

Needless to say I'm very happy. I musta watched fifty times. 

If you've been wondering where I've been, and I know you were DYING 
to know...I've been in Oklahoma!. What a great show, not my favourite 
but still great!  We've had so much fun and it really makes you want 
to adapt Harry Potter to the stage!

I've got so much to comment on, but it's midnight, and my math 
homework is beconing...school tomorrow and a show tomorrow night. 
I've got lots to say when I get the chance though!

Scott




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar  2 05:36:06 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:36:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer screaming and running from?
References: <F123UQ9cAgjHXwKHvyo00001067@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c0a2da$af8875e0$1d14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13338


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Heidi Henshaw 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 4:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Trailer screaming and running from?






  >Doreen wrote:
  >Could the scene with them running and screaming, be the Sorting Hat scene, 
  >where they see the Hogwarts ghosts go streaming through for the first time?
  >

  >I think that it is supposed to be the scene where Harry Ron and Hermione 
  >all meet the troll in the bathroom.

  I don't think it was the bathroom scene. First Harry & Ron locked the troll inside. Then, they went in and were on opposite sides of it... Hermione didn't run .. she was in shock .. then the teachers showed up. 

  I still opt for the ghost scene during the sorting.

  Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  2 05:42:38 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 05:42:38 -0000
Subject: Trailer - scene by scene guide
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010301191405.05525ec0@brain-stream.com>
Message-ID: <97nbse+qk62@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13339

B.K. wrote:

> Keep in mind this is a trailer and even the 
> close scenes don't have to be tied together.

For example, it seems likely, not only from the book, but from the 
context of the shot, that the trailer has a cut from Harry grabbing at 
the flying letters back to a previous scene with Harry (? or Vernon?) 
holding the letter to Harry + two others.  

The details y'all are able to see are amazing.  My resolution 
doesn't permit me to sort out Bludger from Snitch.  Thanks, Simon, for 
the great scene-by-scene!  

Keeping in mind said lousy resolution, I'm pretty sure Harry is 
smiling at the very end of the shot in Gringott's.  So I'd upgrade the 
look from "worried" to "curious," or "worried-then-happy."

One version I saw said "The magic begins soon."  Did someone scream 
"November 16 is NOT SOON!" (I know I did) and so they changed it 
sometime today?  ;-)

I agree with whoever noted the John Lennon resemblance in the last 
shot.  (Now don't make me cry.)

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------------------
"Blimey," said the other twin.  "Are you--?"
"He *is*," said the first twin.  "Aren't you?" he added to Harry.
"What?" said Harry.
"*Harry Potter*," chorused the twins.
"Oh, him," said Harry.  "I mean, yes, I am."
                                 --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
-------------------------------------------------------------------




From whimzical at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 05:50:27 2001
From: whimzical at yahoo.com (whimzical at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 05:50:27 -0000
Subject: Now that HE is back, Harry should have special permission to...
In-Reply-To: <97movo+crns@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97ncb3+kvi5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13340

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lhunneb at y... wrote:
> Now that Voldemort is back in his body, I think that the headmaster 
> should petition the Ministry to get Harry special permission to use 
> magic during the summer to protect himself, if necessary.  After 
> all, "he who should not be named" won't hold back just because it's 
> summer vacation!

But Harry has special protection while he's at the Dursley's. I'm not 
sure if Dumbledore has mentioned it, but in GoF Voldemort says 
something like 'he has protection even he does not know about 
yet...while he is in the care of his relations even I cannot touch 
him there' Anyways that's the gist of it, I'm too lazy to get the 
direct quote. Also, I think Harry would object to special priveleges, 
as well as other people (like Malfoy)
Julie




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar  2 05:53:19 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:53:19 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The movie trailer Professor Kettleburn's limbs
References: <97mm6p+pr1n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003101c0a2dd$171b2160$1d14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13341


  I try to download it) but perhaps it's Professor Kettleburn, the 
  teacher for CoMC that Hagrid replaced when Kettleburn wanted to 
  retire "in order to enjoy more time with his remaining limbs." I 
  always assumed it meant a non-human of some sort.

  Allyse
  Hmmm When I read that about Kettleburn, I assumed that it meant he was not a very adept Magical Creatures caretaker and this resulted in his getting a finger or hand nipped off. Thus, he wanted to quit while he was ahead .. or while he still had his head. hee hee
  Doreen




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From kippesp at swbell.net  Fri Mar  2 06:01:13 2001
From: kippesp at swbell.net (kippesp at swbell.net)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 06:01:13 -0000
Subject: Tiny Trailer
Message-ID: <97ncv9+oldt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13342

For those of you with QuickTime, the trailer can be viewed in nearly 
the full size of your monitor.  (Slow computers need not apply.)  The 
only requirement is you need to download the entire trailer.  I saw 
an earlier post with a link.  (I didn't verify this link.)

Alternatively, you can "View Source" and pull out the link to 
the .mov file.

Enjoy the trailer.

Smitster1

p.s. If this is John Williams, he's doing a wonderful job at sounding 
like Danny Elfman.  I may actually like the soundtrack if this 
represents the final product!





From kippesp at swbell.net  Fri Mar  2 06:16:16 2001
From: kippesp at swbell.net (kippesp at swbell.net)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 06:16:16 -0000
Subject: Trailer soundtrack
Message-ID: <97ndrg+f824@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13343

Humm.  On further consideration of the WHOLE track, I think this is 
closer John Williams than I originally thought.  (But I still like 
the opening sequence.  Reminds me of either Poltergeist or Edward 
Scissorhands but I don't have access to either of those to check my 
memory.)

As far as why I now think that this is by John Williams (assuming you 
care).  In particular, listen to the melodic line at 0:57-1:13.  
Nearly straight out of Star Wars.  And then the trumpet upward 
progression at 1:20-1:21.  And finally the rapid trumpet pattern at 
1:29-1:32.

My two bits.





From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 06:20:22 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 06:20:22 -0000
Subject: Now that HE is back, Harry should have special permission to...
In-Reply-To: <97ncb3+kvi5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97ne36+cfgv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13344

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., whimzical at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lhunneb at y... wrote:

Lhunneb:"Now that Voldemort is back in his body, I think that the 
headmaster should petition the Ministry to get Harry special 
permission to use magic during the summer to protect himself, if 
necessary.  After all, "he who should not be named" won't hold back 
just because it's summer vacation!"


Julie:"But Harry has special protection while he's at the Dursley's. 
I'm not sure if Dumbledore has mentioned it, but in GoF Voldemort 
says something like 'he has protection even he does not know about 
yet...while he is in the care of his relations even I cannot touch 
him there' Anyways that's the gist of it, I'm too lazy to get the 
direct quote. Also, I think Harry would object to special priveleges, 
as well as other people (like Malfoy)"

He does have something special protection from the Dursleys, teaching 
the important lesson that almost anybody is good for something. We 
may find out the limitations of that protection as we go on, or we 
may see attempts to break or circumvent it. 

OTOH, if I was Harry, and the Death Eaters show up at my door, then 
underage restrictions be damned, special permission or no; and 
Arabella Figg down the street, who was three-time dueling champion at 
Hogwarts in her day, does her Toshiro Mifune Cuisinart routine with 
her wand on about half a dozen DE's or so.




From rainesj at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  2 06:30:20 2001
From: rainesj at hotmail.com (Justin Raines)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 06:30:20 -0000
Subject: The trailer
Message-ID: <97nels+f8t9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13345

I have confess I haven't been paying much attention lately, since I 
only found out this trailer was going to be released a couple of days 
ago.  I watched it as soon as I got the chance, of course.  I thought 
it was great except for one complaint and one wish unfulfilled.  
First, I didn't like it when Hagrid said, "You're the boy who lived!" 
It seemed pretty corny to me and I think the line from the book would 
have sounded much better.  ("an' you was only a baby, an' you 
lived.")  The look on Harry's face when Hagrid said this seemed to be 
of slight surprise, not the look I would expect on the face of 
someone who had been told how his parents had been murdered.  As for 
the second part, as much as I like the narration.  I would have like 
to hear Harry and/or Ron and Hermione say something.  On a scale of 0 
to 10, I give it and 9.




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Fri Mar  2 06:39:58 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:39:58 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The trailer (Percy and Hagrid's line)
References: <97nels+f8t9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000601c0a2e3$9ac74380$3c4e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13346

After watching the trailer for the 50th time full screen and comparing pictures, the redhead next to Harry at the end IS Percy.

That line Hagrid says is NO WHERE in the book save for the end of the first chapter (and Hagrid doesn't say that) so I'm a bit miffed, except....if they didn't have SOMEONE say the line, it wouldn't be in the movie at all as it's said in the narrator's section so I guess it's okay.

PS-Anyone else see Petunia's curlers?

Saitaina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From natabat at crosswinds.net  Fri Mar  2 06:42:56 2001
From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:42:56 -0800
Subject: Trailer formats
Message-ID: <005101c0a2e4$06fa8b20$0201a8c0@hp>

No: HPFGUIDX 13347

I've been running around since about 2:00 finding as many different trailer
files as I could. Most of the sites linked directly to the official site,
but I found three (before I got tired of looking) that didn't. The list of
those sites (and the official one) can be found here:
http://www.hpsearch.f2s.com/Movies/Trailers (yes, that is my site, no this
is not a plug! <g>)

My conclusions: (these all apply to the high bandwith versions)

The official versions are pretty nice, my faves being the QuickTime and
Windows Media. Of course, RealPlayer always seems pretty choppy to me, even
on my new computer.

The ones from BBC Online are RealPlayer and not real big (ie image size).
The best thing about them are that they are titled "Harry Potter and the
Philosopher's Stone" and have the magic beginning "soon." All the others
I've seen are SS and Nov. 16th.

I didn't try the QuickTime or RealPlayer from Hollywood.com, but the Windows
Media Player is so-so. The best part is that the videos are embedded in a
pop-up window that looks like a theater. Their bandwidth choices range from
28K-300K. I think all the others started at 56K. The Windows Media one (and
the RealPlayer one as well, I'm assuming) is streamed, so you can't save it
to your computer. (Well, you can't normally...there is software out there
that will do it for you.)

My fave is the Windows Media from ComingSoon.com. It's got the biggest
screen size, and doesn't look half bad even when playing in full screen.
Plus, it doesn't stream, so you can keep it on your computer.

Well, that's my bit of obsession. Have fun!

Natalie
natabat at flashmail.com / natabat at crosswinds.net
http://www.natabat.com
-----
You gotta live somewhere.
Motto for Cleveland suggested by Jimmy Brogan







From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Mar  2 07:20:24 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 00:20:24 -0700
Subject: More Trailer Comments
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEDIDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13348

More comments on the trailer.

11. Did you notice the candles floating in the air as they walk into the
Great Hall for the first time?

12. Dudley seems to be merely slightly plump -- he doesn't look as obese as
I imagined him.

13. That whole Richard Harris/Dumbledore voice-over at the beginning... I
assume it was recorded strictly for the trailer, since at no point in the
book does anyone say or write "Soon you and your classmates will be joining
us...blah blah blah"

14. They seemed very careful not to show many special effects... we don't
see any ghosts, we don't see any Quidditch, and the only 'supernatural'
critters we see are the goblins. (We see no Fluffy, no unicorn, no centaurs,
no baby dragon, no Invisibility Cloak, no Mirror of Erised, and of course,
nothing from the climactic scenes where they get past the barriers to the
Stone...).  Even if I wear out my computer re-watching the trailer, there's
still guaranteed to be plenty of delicious scenes to provide a wonderful
movie experience. (I got the 22 MB avi file from the UK - the one that plays
on Windows Media Player -- it plays quite smoothly, but I have 128 MB of
RAM, thank heaven.)

15. I'd no idea that owls were so huge.  I had pictured Hedwig as much
smaller and lighter.  I wonder how much that bird weighs?  Dan looked like
he was putting a bit of effort into holding her on his arm.

SML

==============================================
"Harry," said Lockhart, his large white teeth
gleaming in the sunlight as he shook his head.
"Harry, Harry, Harry."
Completely nonplussed, Harry said nothing.
   ---Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
==============================================




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 10:36:47 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 05:36:47 EST
Subject: Techie Question re: the Trailer
Message-ID: <8e.11d43dbb.27d0d1bf@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13349

Hi

Firstly, for those looking for the largest image and best quality trailer, 
download the Hi-Res Quicktime version - just under 10MB (I managed to drink a 
coffee during the download on my 56k modem - but it's worth the wait).
 
> Okay, I first went to the Warner Bros. site.  I heard the audio clearly,
 but the visual was really a series of "choppy" stills.  There were parts
 that I later saw on QuickTime that weren't on the first Real Player
 version that I saw.
 
Real & Windows Media versions use far more compression than QuickTime, and 
thus the downloads are quicker, but the images are not as fluid.  Don't try 
to STREAM the files, try instead to download the full .RM file in the case of 
Real, or MOV file for Quicktime.

> Here's my question: I've tried the QuickTime version on Warner Bros. and
 now on Darkhorizons.  Neither version has any audio going. 

The WBros QuickTime version does have audio... so check you have your 
soundcard set up correctly.  If you are trying to watch it LIVE (streaming) 
then don't... download the file instead, then you should get the audio.

> My speakers are working, and like I said, I heard it all on the RealPlayer 
version.
 So, why no sound on the QuickTime versions?  Now that I've taken the
 time to download the high resolution QuickTime version (which is
 *phenomenal* btw -- Cassie, if you didn't figure out how to pause it on
 Draco, email me -- with this you can).  But, I want the audio *and* the
 video together now!  Help!!
 
Strange... check your QuickTime settings... if using Windows, it's found in 
Control Panel.  Makesure RealPlayer and any other applications using sound 
are not running, especially things like ICQ Telephone.

If there are still problems... try downloading the latest version of 
QuickTime Player.

Hope that helps.

Nick.



From morine10 at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 12:09:37 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 07:09:37 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Viktor Krum
Message-ID: <d0.12325845.27d0e781@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13350

In a message dated 2/28/01 11:26:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
pennylin at swbell.net writes:


> I don't think his behavior is particularly creepy, and I think he
> probably is a good guy.  I think this is particularly likely since
> Hermione seems to be such a good judge of character.  I don't think it's
> weird for him to have been interested in someone so much younger, and
> yes, he does seem to have good taste in women!  

I agree 110%.  Then again Ron has excellent taste as well!  I wonder if 
anyone out there who agrees with the above statement is also in the "Ron will 
go bad" camp?  You know, since we've established Hermione as such a good 
judge of character.


-Moey
First Mate GS R/H :)
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Wonderful girl.  Either I'm going to kill her or I'm beginning to like her." 
                      -Han Solo, Star Wars Episode IV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heiditandy at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 12:35:22 2001
From: heiditandy at yahoo.com (heiditandy at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:35:22 -0000
Subject: electronic arts/pogo.com
Message-ID: <97o42a+of5b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13351

Video game publisher Electronic Arts Inc. is hoping its $42 million 
purchase of gaming Web site (http://www.pogo.com) will draw more new 
paying subscribers to help meet its online division's financial 
targets, analysts and sources close to the deal said on Thursday.

Electronic Arts plans to launch a series of fee-based games this 
month costing from $5 to $10 a month, he said. Among the offerings 
are new games designed to appeal to a mass audience, featuring its 
popular The Sims role-playing game and ***characters from the best-
selling Harry Potter novels.***

Analysts noted that visitors to the pogo.com site are likely 
attracted to its free games and might not be willing to pay to play. 
But they added that it will be cheaper for EA.com to acquire paying 
customers from pogo.com gamers than from the general public.





From heiditandy at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 12:42:07 2001
From: heiditandy at yahoo.com (heiditandy at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:42:07 -0000
Subject: trailer thoughts on th e"last line"
Message-ID: <97o4ev+qi6t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13352

s
p
o
i
l
e
r
f
o
r
t
h
e
t
r
a
i
l
e
r

It seems my first post on this didn't go through. Grrr.
I watched the end of the trailer very carefully on the highest 
resolution possible, and I am convinced that Hagrid's mouth movements 
and words do NOT match up when he says, "Harry, you're the boy who 
lived" - it looks like he's saying the line from the book - "Harry, 
you're a wizard!" but I wouldn't bet gryffindor's sword on it...
If someone who is better than me at lip reading could check it out, 
that would be great.

On a different screen-freezing note, the only part of the trailer 
where it looks like harry's hair is off his forehead is the bit when 
the Bludger is released from the strap. Has anyone been able to 
freeze that bit so we can see if the scar is visible?
I am not surprised that they gave him heavy bangs - it says very 
clearly in Book 1 that his hair was worn in a fringe - the bit where 
aunt petunia cuts everything but that is the longest description, and 
to be honest, since the first book cover I saw was for SS, not PS, I 
assumed he did have bangs/fringe, and it was just being blown back as 
he flew to catch the Snitch. 




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Fri Mar  2 12:53:47 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:53:47 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer thoughts on th e"last line"
In-Reply-To: <97o4ev+qi6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEJHDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13353

SML: "I got the 22 MB avi file from the UK - the one that plays on Windows
Media Player -- it plays quite smoothly, but I have 128 MB of RAM, thank
heaven."
Dennis: "I downloaded (DSL at work) the Philosopher's Stone Version, 30
Megs in AVI format."

Where are these files from? The WMP/avi files I have found have only been
quite small.

S
p
o
i
l
e
r
f
o
r
t
h
e
t
r
a
i
l
e
r

Heidi: <<<I watched the end of the trailer very carefully on the highest
resolution possible, and I am convinced that Hagrid's mouth movements and
words do NOT match up when he says, "Harry, you're the boy who lived" - it
looks like he's saying the line from the book - "Harry, you're a wizard!"
but I wouldn't bet gryffindor's sword on it... If someone who is better
than me at lip reading could check it out, that would be great.>>>

I have also watched this scene again and again, but the beard is in the way
for me to tell anything conclusive.


Heidi: "On a different screen-freezing note, the only part of the trailer
where it looks like harry's hair is off his forehead is the bit when the
Bludger is released from the strap. Has anyone been able to freeze that bit
so we can see if the scar is visible?"

I have done a freeze frame of this bit and it is not clear enough to tell.
The whole bit of his head being thrown back takes 12 frames.
The first three have his head moving slowly up with his fringe covering his
forehead.
Numbers 4 and 5 have his forehead off shot.
Number 6, 7 and 8 are just not clear enough to tell. With number 6 being
the best possibility, but I could see nothing that was clear enough to tell
off.
The last 5 have his head tilted too far back to tell.



Simon




From jaffa276 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Mar  2 13:20:33 2001
From: jaffa276 at yahoo.co.uk (Benjamin)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:20:33 -0000
Subject: trailer thoughts on th e"last line"
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEJHDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <97o6n1+s1bi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13354


> 
> S
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
> f
> o
> r
> t
> h
> e
> t
> r
> a
> i
> l
> e
> r
> 
> Heidi: I am convinced that Hagrid's mouth movements and
> words do NOT match up when he says, "Harry, you're the boy who 
lived" - it
> looks like he's saying the line from the book - "Harry, you're a 
wizard!"

Ah - I take it there is sound to this then...  <scowls at computer>


Simon:
> I have done a freeze frame of this bit and it is not clear enough 
to tell.
> The whole bit of his head being thrown back takes 12 frames.
> The first three have his head moving slowly up with his fringe 
covering his
> forehead.
> Numbers 4 and 5 have his forehead off shot.
> Number 6, 7 and 8 are just not clear enough to tell. With number 6 
being
> the best possibility, but I could see nothing that was clear enough 
to tell
> off.
> The last 5 have his head tilted too far back to tell.

Are you sure you're only 55% obsessed with this??

-Ben.

"Any well developed technology is indistinguishable from magic" 
-Arthur C. Clarke





From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Mar  2 08:39:06 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:39:06 EST5EDT
Subject: Well....
Message-ID: <BE509568B3@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13355

After taping the trailer from Extra and Access Hollywood last night, 
I rewound the tape several times to freeze frame and look for other 
people in the background.  *sniff*  No Fred and George 
anywhere....*weeping weeping weeping* (sorry, it was from a 
commercial around Christmas where a robot was sad that the store 
was selling his "girlfriend"...a printer.)

BUT, I wish I had WebTV or some way to get a great shot of Alan 
as Snape.  I'd freeze the picture and look at it from all different 
angles....across the room, from the kitchen, off to the side from my 
couch, two inches from the screen.  And I still have the same 
opinion that he's totally HOT!  Grrrrrrrr.......I would like to choke the 
casting people.  I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE A CRUSH ON 
SNAPE!  IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT!!!  :-)

So, if anyone has WebTV or something along the same route and 
got the trailers on TV last night, could you please send me a freeze-
frame of Alan.  *sigh*  Thanks.



Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar  2 13:46:49 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 07:46:49 -0600
Subject: (trailer) I told you so! I told you so!
Message-ID: <3A9FA449.C68583A8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13356

HAH.

About Snape. I have been sitting back smugly enjoying all the comments
from you unbelievers, who did not believe before you saw! I've put so
much energy into explaining why Alan Rickman is perfect, that this is
wonderful.

Most of you approve of his "look." Most of the fear that he's too old
has evaporated. Many of you have marveled at the precision of his
expression, the sizing-up, speculative, unpleasant look rather than
hatred on his face. None of this surprises me. He's looking and acting
exactly as I expected. HAH.

Not only does he match the physical appearance for the character, Alan
Rickman is a superlative actor in the realm of shades and nuance. He is
one of the few actors on the planet who will be able to do Snape to OUR
satisfaction, and that's saying something. You just wait (like we have a
choice?).

--Amanda, smug


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 14:04:52 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:04:52 EST
Subject: Trailer - Harry's Scar
Message-ID: <e2.1117d2f6.27d10284@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13357

Someone asked if you could see Harry's Scar in the trailer.  I can't locate 
it so far.
Even in the bludger scene where he looks up, all you can see is his forehead 
- no scar - but it is hard to tell from the trailer image.

I've uploaded the image in question:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Movie%20Trailer/hp_trailer.j

pg
(If link does not work, look in Movie Trailer folder of Files section)

Nick.




From wings909 at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 14:13:43 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:13:43 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The trailer (Percy and Hagrid's line)
Message-ID: <fd.306c451.27d10497@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13358

In a message dated 03/02/2001 1:38:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
saitaina at wizzards.net writes:

<< That line Hagrid says is NO WHERE in the book save for the end of the 
first chapter (and Hagrid doesn't say that) so I'm a bit miffed, except....if 
they didn't have SOMEONE say the line, it wouldn't be in the movie at all as 
it's said in the narrator's section so I guess it's okay. >>

Like it or not, I'm sure that's not going to be the only line that either 
isn't in the book altogether, or someone else will say a certain line.  I 
don't think we are going to have narrator in the movie, at least I haven't 
been able to see any hints toward one.

Cheers,
Paula
Griffindor  



From msl at fc.net  Fri Mar  2 14:17:37 2001
From: msl at fc.net (Marvin Long, Jr.)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:17:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: trailer music
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10103020812230.38043-100000@freeside.fc.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13359


Love the trailer, but the music sounds to my ears more like the sort of
thing Danny Elfman would write for a Tim Burton movie than the usual John
Williams.  Also, the way the WarnerBros. logo dissolves into owls is just
so "Batman."  Urk.  


Seeing the Quiddditch balls shoot up into the air was absolutely
marvelous.  And Oh! isn't Hermione so smug with her feather!


Marvin Long
Austin, Texas




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Mar  2 09:26:35 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:26:35 EST5EDT
Subject: *pout*
Message-ID: <BF1B171C7C@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13360

Anyone else having some trouble getting onto harrypotter.com?  I 
NEED MY TRAILER FIX!

*pant....pant....pant...*  Throat tightening.....breathing 
staggered.....heart rate rising....feeling faint.....

Today's Gryffindor day on the daily calendar!  Let's all celebrate by 
going up to any random door and yelling out "Pig Snout!"  until it 
opens on it's own....then again...maybe not.



Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From andrea at noembromation.com.br  Fri Mar  2 14:30:29 2001
From: andrea at noembromation.com.br (andrea at noembromation.com.br)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:30:29 -0000
Subject: Trailer again: screaming scene, etc
Message-ID: <97oaq5+6keh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13361

Has anyone else noticed that Hermione's carrying a bag (briefcase, 
schoolbag?) while they're running through that classroom? If I'm not 
mistaken, the boys don't have anything in their hands. Is that 
helpful information at all?

Some people have complained that Hagrid shows up way too much (yes, 
that was you, Cassie). I guess that happens just because they've 
already shot all the pre-Hogwarts scenes, in which Hagrid is very 
important, but not much of the school ones. We must remember that the 
movie's not ready yet, they aren't done with the filming yet. That 
also explains the relative lack of special effects in the trailer, 
which are post-production stuff, right?

Ah, something else came up to me: if that's Percy in the last 
("smile") scene, then where are his glasses? McGonagall's have 
already been removed, so have Percy's? Weird! It may be one of the 
twins after all.
 
Andrea




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Mar  2 14:40:05 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:40:05 -0000
Subject: (trailer) question on the Great Hall
Message-ID: <97obc5+idqi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13362

The Great Hall is wonderful. The candles in midair, the impressive 
size and grandeur of it, it's just fantastic. Too bad we couldn't see 
the ceiling, but that will come, I'm sure. 

I did do a count as best I could, and I count about 120 kids at each 
table, which would give us a student count of about 500. And 
that "looks" right to me, that size crowd. It looks like there really 
are only about 12-15 teachers for all that. As a fellow educator, my 
heart goes out to them. I thought I had it bad...

One little question: they changed the orientation of the hall for the 
film, didn't they? I think it works great and I don't exactly mind, 
but in the books, the Slytherin table is mentioned as being closest 
to the door and the Gryffindor table is farthest. That seems to me to 
suggest that you don't enter from the back and walk up the center but 
that you enter from one side and walk across the front of the tables. 
In GF, for example, in chapter 12, it says:

     Harry, Ron, and Hermione walked past the Slytherins, the 
     Ravenclaws, and the Hufflepuffs, and sat down with the rest
     of the Gryffindors at the far side of the Hall...

If they came in at the back, this wouldn't make much sense. You could 
say it that way, I suppose, but you probably wouldn't. And I believe 
there are other examples, although my notes are at home so I can't 
check it out right now. Anyone else have any notion on this?

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
where I was about to post a map of the main floor, but now...
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  2 14:48:19 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:48:19 -0000
Subject: Trailer
Message-ID: <97obrj+rb6s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13363

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

T
R
A
I
L
E
R

This Quicktime stuff is going to drive me bats.  I just spent an hour 
and a half downloading the hi-res version, or so I thought.  It is 
worse quality than the lo-res (although overall focus is better, so 
here and there I can see things I couldn't catch before), and not only 
that, it didn't really download as a permanent file.  It's just within 
Netscape, and I have the horrible feeling it'll vanish for good once I 
log off.

Cassie wrote:

>May I say I screamed out loud when [Draco] showed up in the trailer? 
>And threw my book across the room?

Not an HP book, I trust!

You know, *none* of the spoken stuff is strictly canon (the letter 
isn't from Dumbledore, Vernon never says "there's no such thing as 
magic"--unless I'm forgetting--and Hagrid never says "you're the boy 
who lived"), but I don't even care.  I'm even going to let up on the 
"boy who lived" thing (audible sighs of relief from list).  I will be 
sad if the screaming scene puzzle means we're not going to see Neville 
in his pajamas <g>, but right now the movie looks really, really good 
to me.  I'll let up on John Williams too.  I think Dai hit it on the 
head when he said he thought it was generic--I thought it sounded 
straight out of The Witches of Eastwick, another JW score--but it has 
a magical/happy/creepy feel that matches the book, IMO, so JW, you 
just go on and do your generic stuff!  Tralalalalala!

I think I'm going to have to go to the movie alone.  My dh, if so 
inclined, can come along the second time.  The first time, like 
Doreen, I'm going to sit there all afternoon (haven't done that since 
I was 9 and watched Star Wars back-to-back for one buck).  And if I go 
with anyone else, I'll just make a fool out of myself gushing.

Parker:  You can probably enlarge your Quicktime screen.  
Right-clicking on it should yield a Zoom option.

Simon wrote:

>Also the person in the bottom left corner of the
>picture, who I presume is Harry, is holding a rounder bat. Suggesting 
it is
>a bludger as you do not need such an item against a snitch. 

He might just still be holding it from when Wood released the 
bludgers.  Also, with the shots spliced in from different scenes, we 
can't draw any conclusions.

Dervish wrote:

> The screen shots were nice. But the one of Malfoy sucked. If they
>would have stilled it a fraction of a second later he wouldn't look
>so bad. Honestly.

He's supposed to look bad!  We love him bad!  I thought he was *bad* 
in every sense of the word:  evil bad, good bad, and 
looks-good-in-leather-pants bad.

SML wrote of Richard Harris:

>I've heard enough of him in other movies to recognize
>it, even though it is pitched much lower than he normally speaks.

AD is described as having a low voice, though Jim Dale's John Houseman 
impression works for me too, and it's higher than Harris's voice here.

We've known for months that Ron is too short.  He doesn't fit my 
mental picture at all, but if they found a good actor I'll live with 
it, much as I like my own image of a short Harry and tall, lanky Ron 
walking the corridors together.  Face it, most redheads look like 
Rupert Grint--round faces, short noses.

Amy Z
long-nosed redhead who read too late that the trailer would show up on 
Entertainment Tonight last night...why didn't I think of that?  
Videotaping would be so much easier than this insanity...





From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Mar  2 09:52:57 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:52:57 EST5EDT
Subject: Rowling gets Order of the British Empire
Message-ID: <BF8B9736A0@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13364

Didn't know if this had been posted yet but I just read it in the NY Times:
In honor of her services to children's literature, Rowling will go to 
Buckingham Palace Friday to receive an Order of the British Empire 
award from Queen Elizabeth. 



Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  2 14:53:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:53:44 -0000
Subject: Cedric's death
In-Reply-To: <001701c0a111$cd181f40$5477d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97oc5o+tvcg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13365

It really goes to show you how much being in or out of the hype loop 
affects your reading of the books.  I hadn't heard any of JKR's dark 
hints before reading GF, so I had no particular expectation that 
anyone was going to die.  When it comes to 5, it will be very 
different because I've heard all her warnings.

I thought his death was important, not so much to the plot (though 
that remains to be seen) or V's character development (he's done 
worse), but to Harry's character development.  Judging from the final 
chapters, I think it affected him even more than seeing his parents, 
at least in the short term.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
Crabbe and Goyle chuckled trollishly.
             -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
---------------------------------------------




From recla at magick.net  Fri Mar  2 14:57:09 2001
From: recla at magick.net (Dennis Recla)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 06:57:09 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer thoughts on th e"last line"
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEJHDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <NBBBLMIEAKMHNMICJHAHIECGDCAA.recla@magick.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13366

The file vanished...(As if by magic ??)

I got it from the BBC site, but when I went back there today, the 22 meg AVI
file had been removed from the web page.
Not sure if it was a bandwidth/too many downloads problem, or if WB dosen't
want the better quality image being spread around.  Sure glad I grabbed it
early.  It did take a few tries, as I was probably one of hundreds who were
also trying to download it.  I should have taped the trailer off FOX when
they showed it, and converted to a higher quality file format.

November 16... Arrrrgggghhhhh !!!!!!



Dumbledore (Dennis)


-----Original Message-----
From: Simon [mailto:simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 4:54 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] trailer thoughts on th e"last line"


SML: "I got the 22 MB avi file from the UK - the one that plays on Windows
Media Player -- it plays quite smoothly, but I have 128 MB of RAM, thank
heaven."
Dennis: "I downloaded (DSL at work) the Philosopher's Stone Version, 30
Megs in AVI format."

Where are these files from? The WMP/avi files I have found have only been
quite small.




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar  2 15:14:54 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:14:54 -0000
Subject: *pout*
In-Reply-To: <BF1B171C7C@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <97odde+9epn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13368

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> Anyone else having some trouble getting onto harrypotter.com?  I 
> NEED MY TRAILER FIX!
> 
> *pant....pant....pant...*  Throat tightening.....breathing 
> staggered.....heart rate rising....feeling faint.....

Me too, Rachel.  I tried it last night & again this morning.  It 
seems to be down.
> 
> Today's Gryffindor day on the daily calendar!  Let's all celebrate 
by 
> going up to any random door and yelling out "Pig Snout!"  until it 
> opens on it's own....then again...maybe not.

Yes!!  Having been sorted into Gryffindor (by several different sites-
-including the official one) the calendar page will be going up on 
the wall of my office, along with my other Harry Potter art (pictures 
of Sirius, Remus, & Severus, the teaser poster).
> 
> 
> 
> Rachel Bray
> 74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)
> 
> "Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
> in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
> and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
>  - Ron Weasley

Any percent obsessed has to be good!  

Peace & Plenty,
Parker (over 90% obsessed)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...'

'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------






From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar  2 15:29:07 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:29:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer again: screaming scene, Hagrid
References: <97oaq5+6keh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009201c0a32d$86173ea0$0914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13369

Has anyone else noticed that Hermione's carrying a bag (briefcase, 
schoolbag?) while they're running through that classroom? If I'm not 
mistaken, the boys don't have anything in their hands. Is that 
helpful information at all?

Some people have complained that Hagrid shows up way too much 
Andrea

I noticed that too ... which makes me think that this could not be the trapdoor scene, since they did plan that trip ... and Hermione would not have dragged her schoolbag along. (I know they are not in their pajamas, either, but I was beginning to think they had changed that for the movie)

Since she does have her schoolbag, I still don't think it is the Troll scene. If they see the Troll, and all three of them run from it ... how would they get them back in the bathroom to fight it? 

I still say it is the ghost/Sorting Hat scene and they are just overdoing the fright from the ghosts appearing out of nowhere... they are looking up ... and that is probably where the ghosts would be floating, on their way through.

"Then something happened that made him jump about a foot in the air -- several people behind him screamed.
"What the ---?"
He gasped. So did the people around him. About twenty ghosts had just streamed through the back wall."

Yes, I can imagine Hermione carrying her schoolbag with her, to be prepared for anything... 

Like someone else said, this scene just doesn't fit .. so the great WB has to have taken license with this scene, just as they probably have with the Hagrid and the Trio scene. As for Hagrid showing up way too much... never! I am in lust with the big hairy guy! But then, I have always had a thing for big hairy guys.

Doreen 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Fri Mar  2 14:01:01 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 01:01:01 +1100
Subject: SHIP: Question for shippers
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010303010101.007e0cf0@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 13370

>Does everyone, H/H shippers, R/H shippers, no-shippers, H/G shippers, D/H
shippers etc. etc. all think that it's completely ovious that Ron likes
Hermione?  

Hmmm, well, I'm sure Ron likes Hermione. They're friends. And that's
exactly how I see that relationship. I also see Harry and Hermione as
friends. This isn't because I'm a slash fan, but more due to the ages of
the characters and their circumstances.

Harry's been neglected and non-physically abused for years, and I think
that he would latch on very tightly to the people who showed the slightest
sign of caring for him, but for now, and I think for a long time, they
won't be seen as romantic possibilities, but the love and caring he's
needed all his life.

One thing that kind of puzzles me, and I really hope gets some page time in
the future books, is that Harry seems to have adjusted awfully well,
awfully quickly (relatively speaking) to being at Hogwarts and being, for
lack of a better word, free. I can understand that at first it would be
very liberating (again, for lack of a better word) to be taken away from
all that and put into a place where he's accepted and loved, but still, I
think there are very deep scars (and I don't mean the one from Voldemort)
that we haven't touched the surface of.

As for shipping...I don't really see Harry, Ron or Hermione as having a
relationship yet. They are only fourteen, and they may be looking (like
Harry was at Cho in GoF), but they wouldn't really be doing more yet. I
think I personally need to see them as a little older before I can judge
who would go well with whom.

However, for older characters, I'm very convinced of the Remus/Sirius
relationship in slash.

Joanne, who would go for Bill Weasley herself. Damn...another crush on a
literary character. Oh, well.



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  2 15:40:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:40:28 -0000
Subject: Too much Hagrid? - orientation of Hall -HG's hair
Message-ID: <97oetc+bngt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13371

T
R
A
I
L
E
R

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

.
.
.
.
.

B
E
W
A
R
E

Andrea wrote:

>Some people have complained that Hagrid shows up way too much (yes, 
>that was you, Cassie). I guess that happens just because they've 
>already shot all the pre-Hogwarts scenes, in which Hagrid is very 
>important, but not much of the school ones. We must remember that the 
>movie's not ready yet, they aren't done with the filming yet. That 
>also explains the relative lack of special effects in the trailer, 
>which are post-production stuff, right?

It also fits with the whole way they're building up to this film 
release:  they're emphasizing Harry's entrance into the wizarding 
world, rather than the adventures that happen afterwards.  Hence the 
teaser poster with the invitation letter.  It makes sense; it invites 
us into the world of HP (as if we haven't all been walking, talking, 
breathing and dreaming it for months or years).

Doreen wrote:

>As for Hagrid showing up way too much... never! I am in
>lust with the big hairy guy! But then, I have always had a thing for 
big hairy
>guys.

Hmmmm, blonde...American...goes for big hairy guys... The truth comes 
out:  Doreen *is* Fay Wray.

Steve wrote:

>If they came in at the back, this wouldn't make much sense. You could 
>say it that way, I suppose, but you probably wouldn't. And I believe 
>there are other examples, although my notes are at home so I can't 
>check it out right now. Anyone else have any notion on this?

In the book, I think the first-years might enter from the chamber off 
the Great Hall (same one the Champions go into in 4), but that isn't 
what's happening here either--they certainly seem to be coming in 
through the main doors.  Looks like they changed the orientation.

Go ahead and post that map.  We're depending on you to keep canon 
sorted out from the movies, and it'll get more important as the movies 
become ingrained in our heads (horrible thought:  future children will 
watch the movies before they read the books!  I hereby swear I will 
never allow a child of mine to do such a thing...).

Parker wrote:

>the calendar page will be going up on 
>the wall of my office, along with my other Harry Potter art (pictures 
>of Sirius, Remus, & Severus, the teaser poster).

Ooh, where'd you get the teaser poster?  Printed it off the web or did 
you get a real one?

I went to a lot of trouble last year to get my dh the original Pauline 
Baynes map of Middle Earth from ebay.  I wonder if he'll get me HP 
posters if I hint enough?

Amy Z

P.S.  Hermione's hair here is not what I think of as "bushy."  It's 
frizzy, but I pictured it more like a medium-length, tighter-curled 
version of Roseanne Roseannadanna.  But I am happy because I have a 
very vivid image of Hermione's *features* (more so than any other 
character's) and when I first saw Emma Watson's photo I almost 
fainted.  It was as if someone had taken a picture from inside my 
brain.

--------------------------------------------------------
Dudley thought for a moment.  It looked like hard work.
            --Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
--------------------------------------------------------





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 15:47:03 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:47:03 -0000
Subject: Now that HE is back, Harry should have special permission to...
In-Reply-To: <97ncb3+kvi5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97of9n+j69e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13372

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., whimzical at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., lhunneb at y... wrote:
> > Now that Voldemort is back in his body, I think that the 
headmaster 
> > should petition the Ministry to get Harry special permission to 
use 
> > magic during the summer to protect himself, if necessary.  After 
> > all, "he who should not be named" won't hold back just because 
it's 
> > summer vacation!
> 
> But Harry has special protection while he's at the Dursley's. I'm 
not 
> sure if Dumbledore has mentioned it, but in GoF Voldemort says 
> something like 'he has protection even he does not know about 
> yet...while he is in the care of his relations even I cannot touch 
> him there' Anyways that's the gist of it, I'm too lazy to get the 
> direct quote. Also, I think Harry would object to special 
priveleges, 
> as well as other people (like Malfoy)
> Julie

Don't worry - even underaged wizards are allowed to use magic if it's 
a real emergency.  Just ask Ron - he says it's in: "...section 
nineteen or something of the Restriction of Thingy--" CoS ch 5 - The 
Womping Willow.  

kimberly,
Friend of the Weasleys, 
who recently re-took the obsession quiz, thinking my obsession had 
surely increased in the weeks since the quiz came out, and instead 
went from a 39% obsession rate to a 37%.  I just don't understand...
I guess it's my stubborn resistance of fanfic.




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar  2 15:55:32 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:55:32 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rowling gets Order of the British Empire
References: <BF8B9736A0@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <00a901c0a331$38520c00$0914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13373




  Didn't know if this had been posted yet but I just read it in the NY Times:
  In honor of her services to children's literature, Rowling will go to 
  Buckingham Palace Friday to receive an Order of the British Empire 
  award from Queen Elizabeth. 
  Rachel Bray
  74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

  Ahh so that's what an OBE is? I thought it had something to do with Star Wars... just kidding... but I didn't know.. so thanks for clearing that bit up for me. 

  Doreen, who would be Hagrid's Fay Wray any day


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Mar  2 16:13:23 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:13:23 -0800
Subject: Potter on Pyre - Death Eaters - Mrs Figg
Message-ID: <3A9FC6A2.828A1890@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13374

Christian Stubo quoted Klaes Krog:
> the [Norwegian] Publishing-house Damm & Son a/s.

If that was the name of a JKR publishing house in an English speaking
country, I wouldn't believe them saying that some book they published
wasn't Satanic...

Marvin wrote:
> After all, the only reason to follow Voldemort is because he
> offers a quick avenue to power, and V's supporters are too
> shrewd not to understand that V considers them his tools.
> To keep their pride they regard V as their tool in turn and,
> I'm sure, all would be happy to betray V for the sake of
> their own advancement,

That describes Lucius Malfoy and perhaps Nott Sr who spoke in such a
manipulative voice, but isn't it more likely that the reason Crabbe Sr
and Goyle Sr joined the Death Eaters is because Lucius told them to, and
that what they enjoy about it is not power, but simply the opportunity
to hurt/kill people?

Mrs  Lestrange, Crouch Jr, and perhaps others in Azkaban or who died
resisting arrest are passionately loyal to Voldemort, perhaps because
they expect him to give them something 'better' than power (perhaps
immortality for themselves).

Probably some people joined the Death Eaters out of sincere
anti-Mudblood feelings.

MC Crusty wrote:
>  I always envisioned [Snape] having a bit of a goatee.

Me, too.

Jim Ferer wrote:
> Arabella Figg down the street, who was three-time dueling champion at
Hogwarts in her day,

I want that to be true, but I seem to recall there being one chat in
which JKR strongly hinted that Mrs. Figg is the person who will get
magic late in life, and one chat where she said Arabella Figg is the
(daughter? niece?) of Mrs. Figg.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar  2 16:15:55 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:15:55 -0600
Subject: QuickTime problem solved; Great Hall & Students; Other Thoughts
References: <97obc5+idqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9FC73B.18F36494@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13375

Hi --

Thanks to Jim Ferer who wrote me offline and to Nick, who both suggested
downloading a newer version of QuickTime.  That is all it took -- easy
to download all this stuff with my beloved DSL connection!

Amy Z wrote:

> This Quicktime stuff is going to drive me bats.  I just spent an hour
> and a half downloading the hi-res version, or so I thought.  It is
> worse quality than the lo-res (although overall focus is better, so
> here and there I can see things I couldn't catch before), and not only
> that, it didn't really download as a permanent file.  It's just within
> Netscape, and I have the horrible feeling it'll vanish for good once I
> log off.
>
Amy -- you can save it to your hard drive via Netscape.  That's what I
use too.  You've downloaded it, so now hit File-Save As on your Netscape
browser.  Then, put it wherever you want on your hard drive.  It saved
automatically as a quicktime format name for me.  I didn't have any
trouble with that aspect of it.  Then open QuickTime & open the movie
itself.  This *should* work!  Good luck.

You can enlarge the screen too, by hitting Movie in QuickTime & then
selecting double size version.

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> I did do a count as best I could, and I count about 120 kids at each
> table, which would give us a student count of about 500.

Actually, I slowed it down in QuickTime last night & could clearly count
15 plates with my mouse up to about the mid-point of each table when
things got fuzzy.  So, I would actually place it at half that number: 30
on each side of the table -- 60 kids at each table for a total of 240,
plus the 40 first years, yielding *exactly* the 280 students number I'm
so sold on.  <g>  Even if my judgment of the mid-point is a bit off, I
still think we're looking at 280-350 *tops*!  :--)

> And that "looks" right to me, that size crowd.

It looks exactly right to me too -- I'm just disagreeing with the count.

ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT -- It was not on ET last night here, but my
husband thinks that it may be day delay in broadcasting for whatever
reason.  We'll be out, but I'll tape the whole episode tonight just in
case.  For others who might have missed the news, this may be true where
you are too (the delayed broadcast that is).

Amy Z again:

> Hermione's hair here is not what I think of as "bushy."  It's
> frizzy, but I pictured it more like a medium-length, tighter-curled
> version of Roseanne Roseannadanna.  But I am happy because I have a
> very vivid image of Hermione's *features* (more so than any other
> character's) and when I first saw Emma Watson's photo I almost
> fainted.  It was as if someone had taken a picture from inside my
> brain.
>
I don't picture her with tight curls at all -- the bushiness factor is
about right as far as I'm concerned.  I do picture darker brown hair.
But, overall, I share Amy's view that Emma Watson is spot-on as far as
features, expression, etc.  I too thought she was a perfect casting
choice.  Her expression with that feather is *perfect*!!  <huge smile
from the Hermione fan>

Harry's appearance -- I still don't understand why they don't dye his
hair a bit darker, spike it up a bit and give him some green contacts.
But, he's still cute as can be and I think he looks great in this role
so far!  :--)

All in all, I thought the trailer was fabulous, and like Neil, I
absolutely cannot wait!!

Penny





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar  2 16:17:15 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:17:15 -0000
Subject: trailer music
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10103020812230.38043-100000@freeside.fc.net>
Message-ID: <97oh2b+lsnf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13376

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marvin Long, Jr." <msl at f...> wrote:
> 
> Love the trailer, but the music sounds to my ears more like the 
sort of
> thing Danny Elfman would write for a Tim Burton movie than the 
usual John
> Williams.  Also, the way the WarnerBros. logo dissolves into owls 
is just
> so "Batman."  Urk.  

Trailers do not necessarily use the score of the finished film. This 
far in advance, Williams probably hasn't even completed it. It may 
have been Danny Elfman that you heard: I wish I had a nickel for 
every time I've heard his Beetlejuice score in another movie's 
trailer.

    - CMC




From wings909 at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 16:20:24 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:20:24 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rowling gets Order of the British Empire
Message-ID: <f8.7c6fa86.27d12248@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13377

Hey, where's the quiz you all keep refering to?  I wanna take it...I think...


Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar  2 16:22:24 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:22:24 -0600
Subject: Ron Betrayal Possibilities
References: <d0.12325845.27d0e781@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3A9FC8C0.F7951378@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13378

Hi --

morine10 at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/28/01 11:26:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> pennylin at swbell.net writes:
>
> > I don't think his behavior is particularly creepy, and I think he
> > probably is a good guy.  I think this is particularly likely since
> > Hermione seems to be such a good judge of character.  I don't think
> it's
> > weird for him to have been interested in someone so much younger,
> and
> > yes, he does seem to have good taste in women!
>
> I agree 110%.  Then again Ron has excellent taste as well!  I wonder
> if
> anyone out there who agrees with the above statement is also in the
> "Ron will go bad" camp?  You know, since we've established Hermione as
> such a good judge of character.

I'm not (and have never been) in any "Ron will go bad" camp.  I am,
however, in the "Ron may unwittingly betray Harry or Ron may be more
easily seduced by the dark side due to his ambitions & insecurities &
unwittingly betray Harry as a result" camp.

I firmly believe that Ron is a good person with his heart in the right
place and that he cares very much for both Harry and Hermione.  But, I
still think his ambitions & insecurities have been played up so subtly
(and are becoming harder & harder to ignore by GoF) -- it just seems
that it is possibly the groundwork for an eventual betrayal scenario
(although still an unwitting betrayal in my mind).  The only scenario
that I can envision Ron intentionally betraying Harry has to do with
Hermione (and I've explained it before so I'll skip it).

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar  2 16:29:50 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:29:50 -0000
Subject: Teaser Poster (was Re: Too much Hagrid? - orientation of Hall -HG's hair
In-Reply-To: <97oetc+bngt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97ohpu+nlme@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13379

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Parker wrote:
> 
> >the calendar page will be going up on 
> >the wall of my office, along with my other Harry Potter art 
(pictures 
> >of Sirius, Remus, & Severus, the teaser poster).
> 
> Ooh, where'd you get the teaser poster?  Printed it off the web or 
did 
> you get a real one?
> 
> I went to a lot of trouble last year to get my dh the original 
Pauline 
> Baynes map of Middle Earth from ebay.  I wonder if he'll get me HP 
> posters if I hint enough?
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> P.S.  Hermione's hair here is not what I think of as "bushy."  It's 
> frizzy, but I pictured it more like a medium-length, tighter-curled 
> version of Roseanne Roseannadanna.  But I am happy because I have a 
> very vivid image of Hermione's *features* (more so than any other 
> character's) and when I first saw Emma Watson's photo I almost 
> fainted.  It was as if someone had taken a picture from inside my 
> brain.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Dudley thought for a moment.  It looked like hard work.
>             --Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
> --------------------------------------------------------


I printed mine from the WB site.  I want a big one, though (wonder if 
a movie house would give me one?).  

I agree on Hermione, Amy.  She looks *just* like I pictured her in my 
head.  Daniel Radcliffe looks to me like I pictured Harry, & Rickman 
*is* Severus.  Would go back & look at the trailer again (and again, 
and..., but I can't seem to get it today.  Worked fine yesterday 
after Quicktime 4 installation, but today I can get nothing--no 
picture, no sound, nada.  

Peace & Plenty,

Parker
----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar  2 16:25:13 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:25:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: trailer music
In-Reply-To: <97oh2b+lsnf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJOAAJGJCFLFLCLLFAEOBCCAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13380

We liked it! It was very haunting and November can't get here fast enough
for us! From Roy and Wanda

-----Original Message-----
From: Caius Marcius [mailto:coriolan at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 11:17 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: trailer music


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marvin Long, Jr." <msl at f...> wrote:
>
> Love the trailer, but the music sounds to my ears more like the
sort of
> thing Danny Elfman would write for a Tim Burton movie than the
usual John
> Williams.  Also, the way the WarnerBros. logo dissolves into owls
is just
> so "Batman."  Urk.

Trailers do not necessarily use the score of the finished film. This
far in advance, Williams probably hasn't even completed it. It may
have been Danny Elfman that you heard: I wish I had a nickel for
every time I've heard his Beetlejuice score in another movie's
trailer.

    - CMC


_______________________________________________

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From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Mar  2 16:32:06 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:32:06 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer thoughts on th e"last line"
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEJHDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEEEDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13381

>>>>>>>Simon wrote:
SML: "I got the 22 MB avi file from the UK - the one that plays on Windows
Media Player -- it plays quite smoothly, but I have 128 MB of RAM, thank
heaven."
Dennis: "I downloaded (DSL at work) the Philosopher's Stone Version, 30
Megs in AVI format."

Where are these files from? The WMP/avi files I have found have only been
quite small.<<<<<<<<<<


I got mine from http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/ , but I just double-checked
the site, and the "avi" version is no longer there.  Hmmmmm.......  Anyone
have any idea why it was pulled?

SML




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Mar  2 12:00:47 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:00:47 EST5EDT
Subject: The music
Message-ID: <C1AD3A33FC@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13382

One thing I've learned through the last dozen years or so...never 
trust the music you hear in a trailer.  It doesn't mean the music we 
hear on the trailer is even in the movie at all.  It's very John 
Williams-ish with a touch of Danny Elfman...this is true.  But...it 
doesn't mean that this is the music they'll be using.

The music from Dragon:The Bruce Lee Story was beautiful.  And 
they used it for the trailers of Forest Gump and several others.  
And every once in awhile you'll hear the music for Edward 
Scissorhands being used for other Danny Elfman/Tim Burton movie 
trailers.

Anyway.....that's my two knuts worth.

Hmm...do you think we crashed the movie site, people?  I've yet to 
get back on it today.  Had to rely on Dark Horizon for it.  *whew!*  I 
was starting to turn purple......


Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Mar  2 17:12:54 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:12:54 -0000
Subject: slightly OT OBE was Re: Rowling gets Order of the British Empire
In-Reply-To: <BF8B9736A0@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <97okam+8s6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13383

Someone asked what's an OBE. Here's a blurb about it.

http://ebooks.whsmithonline.co.uk/encyclopedia/33/M0018033.htm

:-)Milz




From heiditandy at bigfoot.com  Fri Mar  2 17:10:56 2001
From: heiditandy at bigfoot.com (heiditandy at bigfoot.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:10:56 -0000
Subject: JKR comments after her OBE ceremony
Message-ID: <97ok70+7uti@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13384

``I saw the trailer early and thought it was absolutely wonderful, so 
I was really happy,'' Rowling told ITN news.

``From what I've seen so far it's a great film. The three main 
children, the leads, who are unknowns, they are absolutely wonderful. 
They couldn't have been better cast,'' Rowling added.

the whole piece is at 
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010302/re/arts_rowling_dc_1.html





From john at walton.to  Fri Mar  2 17:18:35 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:18:35 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (trailer) question on the Great Hall
In-Reply-To: <97obc5+idqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6C5866B.D00C%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 13385

Steve Vander Ark quoth:

> One little question: they changed the orientation of the hall for the
> film, didn't they?
> (snippedidoodah)
> If they came in at the back, this wouldn't make much sense. You could
> say it that way, I suppose, but you probably wouldn't. And I believe
> there are other examples, although my notes are at home so I can't
> check it out right now. Anyone else have any notion on this?

Steve's mental picture matches mine. My best guess as to why they changed
the orientation is that it's a real-life building, and they probably can't
knock another door through a side wall :)

--John, who wishes that WB would upgrade their servers -- it took 2 hours to
actually get a connection to download the hi-res QT trailer!

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

John Walton                 john at walton.to

"Con-ser-va-tive, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others."
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary", 1842-c.1914

== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == 




From wings909 at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 17:23:08 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:23:08 EST
Subject: Hogwarts Hierarchy?
Message-ID: <d.10f60926.27d130fc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13386

This has been bugging me for quite a while in regards to Prefects and Head Boys and Girls.

How many Prefects can each house have?  Was Percy the only one for Gryffindor?

How are the Prefects chosen? Good grades, teachers vote?

According to my best guess, Percy was a Prefect in his fifth year, so is year 5 the year that you can be chosen to be Prefect?

Now onto the Head Students...we all know that James and Lily were both Head Boy and Girl for their year, and both in Gryffindor.  Percy was in Gryffindor and Penelope was in Ravenclaw.  So, are the Head Boy and Girl chosen to be like the best students in the whole school?  

This has just bothered me for some reason...

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor (86% obsessed...apparently I don't have a life)



From heiditandy at bigfoot.com  Fri Mar  2 17:30:12 2001
From: heiditandy at bigfoot.com (heiditandy at bigfoot.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:30:12 -0000
Subject: Teaser Poster (was Re: Too much Hagrid? - orientation of Hall -HG's hair
In-Reply-To: <97ohpu+nlme@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97olb4+i5sk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13387

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> 
> 
> I printed mine from the WB site.  I want a big one, though (wonder 
if 
> a movie house would give me one?).  

I bought one via ebay - there's a bunch of them on sale over there at 
varying prices - browse before you bid!And check a few online movie 
poster companies - you can search them via yahoo - some might have it 
as well.




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar  2 17:32:44 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:32:44 -0000
Subject: Techie Question re: the Trailer
In-Reply-To: <3c.81cc47f.27d03bf3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <97olfs+qef@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13388

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., hedwigthecat at a... wrote:
> <<<Here's my question: I've tried the QuickTime version on Warner 
Bros. and
> now on Darkhorizons.  Neither version has any audio going.  My 
speakers
> are working, and like I said, I heard it all on the RealPlayer 
version.
> So, why no sound on the QuickTime versions?  Now that I've taken the
> time to download the high resolution QuickTime version (which is
> *phenomenal* btw -- Cassie, if you didn't figure out how to pause 
it on
> Draco, email me -- with this you can).  But, I want the audio *and* 
the
> video together now!  Help!!
> 
> Penny>>
> 
> There is audio on all versions.  You have to not only turn your 
speakers all the way up...but also the right hand corner speaker 
button on your PC...sorry folks, don't know what it is for MAC's.
> 
> Hope it works for you Penny.
> 
> 
> ~Hedwig~

Just *where* is the trailer on the darkhorizons site?  I've looked & 
looked but I can't find it!  Also, on a techie help note, I can't 
seem to get anything today with QuickTime.  No picture, no sound, 
nada.  What's up with this?  

Parker
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, 
see our
> website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also 
consult our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @ 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
> 
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at y...
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>  >>




From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar  2 17:33:16 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:33:16 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: trailer music
References: <97oh2b+lsnf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9FD95C.67BC4C7B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13389

Caius Marcius wrote:

> Trailers do not necessarily use the score of the finished film. This
> far in advance, Williams probably hasn't even completed it. It may
> have been Danny Elfman that you heard: I wish I had a nickel for every
> time I've heard his Beetlejuice score in another movie's trailer.

Okay, you can have the nickels for Beetlejuice if I can have the ones
for Carmina Burana. Deal?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  2 17:42:58 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:42:58 -0000
Subject: trailer music
In-Reply-To: <3A9FD95C.67BC4C7B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <97om32+i5dd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13390

Amanda wrote:

> Okay, you can have the nickels for Beetlejuice if I can have the 
ones
> for Carmina Burana. Deal?

Don't take her up on it, CM.  Carmina Burana has to win the 
all-time nickels-generating prize.  (And I think it would make great 
HP music too...but then, I think it would make great anything music.)

We did hear something early on about how Williams had something ready 
for the trailer, or was going to, so this might be a case where the 
composer did score the trailer with stuff he was working on for the 
final production.  This movie is aiming to be the blockbuster of the 
year, and it wouldn't be surprising for them to pull out all the stops 
(to use a musical metaphor).

Amy Z
now in a singing mood

----------------------------------------------------
Asleep was the way Harry liked the Dursleys best.
                    --HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------




From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar  2 17:50:52 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:50:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (trailer) question on the Great Hall
References: <97obc5+idqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3A9FDD7B.E3E0B10E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13391

Steve Vander Ark wrote:

> In GF, for example, in chapter 12, it says:
>
>      Harry, Ron, and Hermione walked past the Slytherins, the
> Ravenclaws, and the Hufflepuffs, and sat down with the rest of the
> Gryffindors at the far side of the Hall...
>
> If they came in at the back, this wouldn't make much sense. You could
> say it that way, I suppose, but you probably wouldn't. And I believe
> there are other examples, although my notes are at home so I can't
> check it out right now. Anyone else have any notion on this?

(a) great halls have loads of doors?
(b) special "entrance" for the first entrance of the first-years?
(c) great hall is periodically rearranged because the castle itself gets
bored every so often?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar  2 18:13:56 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:13:56 -0600
Subject: OT! OT![Fwd: The first antiquity fair in Sweden with the following  theme]
Message-ID: <3A9FE2E3.69E9A6C5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13392

Sorry about the OT, but I know we've some Northern European folk on the
group, and I don't know how many belong to the Chatter splinter group,
and I thought they might be interested.

--Amanda

-------- Original Message --------
 Subject: The first antiquity fair in Sweden with the following theme
    Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:26:47 +0100
    From: Bj?rn M Jakobsen <bmj at foteviken.se>
Reply-To: Bj?rn M Jakobsen <bmj at foteviken.se>
      To: <viking at foteviken.se>

The first antiquity fair in Sweden with the following theme:
"ANCIENT MEDIATION"


 Exhibitions
 Lectures
 Music in archaeology
 Craftsmen
 Ancient dancinglook at
http://welcome.to/slf  regardsBjorn   If you don't like to be on this
list, please unsubscribe to

Viking at foteviken.se

If you got more then one mail, please let me know


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sdrk1 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 18:52:06 2001
From: sdrk1 at yahoo.com (Stephanie Roark Keener)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:52:06 -0000
Subject: Trailer on E! (HURRY!)
Message-ID: <97oq4m+gksl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13393

I just saw the trailer on E!'s Coming Attractions.  It ran at the end 
of the show which airs at 1pm on the East Coast.  IF they air it at 
the same time in MT/PST -- maybe some of you can catch it on TV 
during lunch.  Good Luck!

A lurker steps out of the forest,
Stephanie Keener




From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar  2 19:19:37 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:19:37 -0600
Subject: (trailer) Tech help for the idiot, please
Message-ID: <3A9FF249.488F521A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13394

I'm frustrated. Yesterday, I downloaded Windows Media Player, since what
I saw of the trailer off the WB site using RealPlayer was choppy.
Download and installation went fine but it was real late so I went to
bed.

Today, when I try to download the MediaPlayer version off the
countingdown site, my browser screen fills with gibberish. (I use
Netscape.) I let it finish, and saved the gibberish as a file in the
correct format for MediaPlayer, but the player says the file is corrupt
or damaged.

So I tried to play the MediaPlayer version off the WB site, and I get
the audio, but no video (in their little window). I tried to paste the
URL for the WB MediaPlayer version into my player's selector, and it
didn't work.

I can't find the trailers anywhere on DarkHorizons today.

Somebody tell me why nothing I touch is working today. This is getting
massively frustrating. I know I'm not the most technologically capable,
but sometimes it seems like the computer and the little sprites who run
the websites are having a bit of conspiratorial fun at my expense.

--Amanda, feeling generally stupid




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar  2 19:21:39 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:21:39 -0000
Subject: WB site running again! & a techie question
Message-ID: <97ors3+srp6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13395

The WB site is up and running again.  Hurrah!  I just had my daily 
trailer fix.  

Now, another techie question.  I downloaded the snitch screensaver, 
but it doesn't seem to be saving my screen.  Any pointers? 

Peace & Plenty,

Parker

----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Mar  2 19:34:29 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:34:29 -0000
Subject: Trailer on E! (HURRY!)
In-Reply-To: <97oq4m+gksl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97osk5+i4rv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13396

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Stephanie Roark Keener" <sdrk1 at y...> 
wrote:
> I just saw the trailer on E!'s Coming Attractions.  It ran at the 
end 
> of the show which airs at 1pm on the East Coast.  IF they air it at 
> the same time in MT/PST -- maybe some of you can catch it on TV 
> during lunch.  Good Luck!
> 
> A lurker steps out of the forest,
> Stephanie Keener

Hey, Stephanie, I also saw it on E! News Daily at noon (CST).  It was 
the very last thing on the show.  I don't know if this show was a 
rerun of yesterday evening's ep, or not, but it may be on again.  I 
tried searching Coming Attractins on Click TV earlier, but it doesn't 
list the specific movies shown on each ep.  Glad to know it's already 
showing.  Thanks, Stephanie.

Kelley




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Mar  2 14:37:45 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:37:45 EST5EDT
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (trailer) question on the Great Hall
Message-ID: <C44AAD05C7@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13397

(a) great halls have loads of doors? (b) special "entrance" for the first 
entrance of the first-years? (c) great hall is periodically rearranged 
because the castle itself gets bored every so often? 

HAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!  I think I'd like to go with answer C, Amanda.  That's 
such a wonderful mental image!!!!!!!!


Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar  2 19:49:53 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:49:53 -0000
Subject: Trailer stills
Message-ID: <97oth1+ufek@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13398

The Harry Potter Gallery at www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery 
has some *amazing* stills from the trailer.  Close-ups!!

Peace & Plenty,

Parker

----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From wings909 at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 19:53:53 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:53:53 EST
Subject: Order of the Phoenix Pre-Sale
Message-ID: <cb.e9e8b8d.27d15451@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13399

This may already be old news or not, but Amazon.com has The Order of the Phoenix on pre-sale.  They have the publication date set for 2002!  

Amazon.co.uk doesn't have the OotP on pre-sale yet, but they do mention that GoF will be on sale in paperback in July 2001.  

Well, at least we have the Quidditch Though the Ages, and Fantastic Beasts books to help us with the withdrawal.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor (86% obsessed...I've lost my mind)



From shades_of_black at mail.com  Fri Mar  2 19:59:15 2001
From: shades_of_black at mail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:59:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (trailer) question on the Great Hall
Message-ID: <389402606.983563155445.JavaMail.root@web149-mc>

No: HPFGUIDX 13400

W
H
Y

H
A
V
E
N
'
T

Y
O
U

S
E
E
N

I
T

B
Y

N
O
W
?


*looks dazed* Errrgh. I stayed up most of the night reading and re-reading
and re-re-reading PS and I cannot, for the life of me, find any scene in
which Hagrid walks The Trio down to his hut. He sends them invitations by
owl. *beats head against keyboard*
As for the now infamous Scream scene... There is not a scene where this
happens. At all. So this means they have changed the script. I seriously
doubt that this is the ghost-in-the-Great-Hall thing, simply because they
weren't standing together at that point (and if they were, Neville would be
with them since he was in thier boat), there isn't anyone else around, they
turn and run away, and, um, the trump card: wizards and witches would know
about ghosts. For cripe's sake, Ron has a goul living in his attic (better
than a skeleton in his closet, LOL). I know that there are gasps and shreiks
in the book, but I presume that is from the Muggle borns. The part where
they are running through a classroom is supposed to be day time. Freeze it
at some point - the light cast on the far wall is white, which signifies it
isn't candle light. Plus, it's in roughly the same shape as a window.
*wiggles eyebrows* Thank you, thank you, no applause, just throw money.
As for the theory that this is the Fluffy Thing - no. One of the main points
in that whole escapade was the fact Hermione was interfering with their
plans. She was waiting up for them. Besides, you think they would cut the
part where Hermione is wearing a pink bathrobe? ^_^ I doubt it. Neville is
crucial because this is where we learn more about Madam Pomfrey's cures.
"[My arm is] fine....Madam Pomfrey mended it in about a minute." * plus *
the running thing is during the day, as stated above. Unless, of course, it
is a spliced scene, mixing two events, which it very well could be. Hum.

MC/Blythe Spirit/Dervish


______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup



From wings909 at aol.com  Fri Mar  2 20:19:03 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:19:03 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (trailer) question on the Great Hall
Message-ID: <5a.11cf6f76.27d15a37@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13401

I'm almost positive that they have *added* scenes or changed certain ones....this should be no big surprise to anyone who's ever followed a book-to-film process.  While there are a lot of HP fans out there, as I see from the steady river of email in my box a day, but this movie will primarily be for those muggles who have no inkling about who Harry Potter is.  They're making a movie that will be based on the book, but...you won't have to read the book to understand what's going on in the movie.  

The "screaming" scene may very well have no basis in the book, something the movie-makers stuck in the middle of the movie as a scare.  Dear me, can everyone imagine what this list will be like when the movie *does* come out?  

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor (86% obsessed...I'm nutters)



From flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 20:32:42 2001
From: flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com (flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 20:32:42 -0000
Subject: Trailer stills
In-Reply-To: <97oth1+ufek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97p01a+5lr7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13402

I just tried that link and it comes up with a message that it is 
closed!  





--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> The Harry Potter Gallery at 
www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery 
> has some *amazing* stills from the trailer.  Close-ups!!
> 
> Peace & Plenty,
> 
> Parker
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> '...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
> death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
> 
> 'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--




From rcraigharman at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  2 21:09:40 2001
From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com (rcraigharman at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:09:40 -0000
Subject: Trailer stills
In-Reply-To: <97p01a+5lr7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97p26k+d3kt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13403

Go here instead:

http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/intro.htm

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., flaearthgoddess at y... wrote:
> I just tried that link and it comes up with a message that it is 
> closed!  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> > The Harry Potter Gallery at 
> www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery 
> > has some *amazing* stills from the trailer.  Close-ups!!
> > 
> > Peace & Plenty,
> > 
> > Parker
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> --
> > '...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
> > death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
> > 
> > 'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> --




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar  2 21:12:06 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:12:06 -0000
Subject: Trailer stills
In-Reply-To: <97p01a+5lr7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97p2b6+ckoo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13404

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., flaearthgoddess at y... wrote:
> I just tried that link and it comes up with a message that it is 
> closed!  

OK, try this one: 

www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery3.htm

That should get it & there are links to the stills.  It's on my 
favourites list!

Parker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> > The Harry Potter Gallery at 
> www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery 
> > has some *amazing* stills from the trailer.  Close-ups!!
> > 
> > Peace & Plenty,
> > 
> > Parker
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> --
> > '...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
> > death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
> > 
> > 'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> --




From flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  2 21:30:48 2001
From: flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com (flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:30:48 -0000
Subject: Trailer stills
In-Reply-To: <97p26k+d3kt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97p3e8+fv3v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13405

Thank You! It worked.

Michelle


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> Go here instead:
> 
> http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/intro.htm
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., flaearthgoddess at y... wrote:
> > I just tried that link and it comes up with a message that it is 
> > closed!  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> > > The Harry Potter Gallery at 
> > www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery 
> > > has some *amazing* stills from the trailer.  Close-ups!!
> > > 
> > > Peace & Plenty,
> > > 
> > > Parker
> > > 
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
--
> --
> > --
> > > '...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even 
stopper 
> > > death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's 
Stone
> > > 
> > > 'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
--
> --
> > --




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar  2 21:42:31 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:42:31 -0000
Subject: Screaming scene
Message-ID: <97p447+jk4u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13406

Did anyone think we were gonna get a  movie *without* a screaming 
scene? From *this* director? At least they don't have their hands up 
around their faces.
Pippin





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Mar  2 21:42:48 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:42:48 -0000
Subject: Casting for the twins?
Message-ID: <97p44o+raqc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13407

Redmailorder has these names listed as unconfirmed for playing F & 
G:  James Phelps -- Fred, and Oliver Phelps -- George.  I know we had 
been wondering if there was any word on who the actors might be, but 
don't recall if this was mentioned yet.  Has anyone heard anything 
definite about this?

Kelley -- off to search for pics now 




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Fri Mar  2 21:49:48 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:49:48 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The trailer (Percy and Hagrid's line)
References: <fd.306c451.27d10497@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008701c0a362$b4a971e0$0e4e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13408

I know, just annoys me when there are lines that aren't in a novel I damn near have memorized...but at least theirs a movie at all.  I shall be grateful and keep my yap shut...most of the time.


Saitaina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hermitchick at crosswinds.net  Sat Mar  3 00:04:08 2001
From: hermitchick at crosswinds.net (Persephone)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:04:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer thoughts on th e"last line"
References: <97o4ev+qi6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA034F6.AED0BC0B@crosswinds.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13409

heiditandy at yahoo.com wrote:

> s
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
> f
> o
> r
> t
> h
> e
> t
> r
> a
> i
> l
> e
> r
>
> It seems my first post on this didn't go through. Grrr.
> I watched the end of the trailer very carefully on the highest
> resolution possible, and I am convinced that Hagrid's mouth movements
> and words do NOT match up when he says, "Harry, you're the boy who
> lived" - it looks like he's saying the line from the book - "Harry,
> you're a wizard!" but I wouldn't bet gryffindor's sword on it...
> If someone who is better than me at lip reading could check it out,
> that would be great.
>

I couldn't tell, mine keeps jumping, and I have to watch it fraim by
frame to see it all, this gets really anoying.


> On a different screen-freezing note, the only part of the trailer
> where it looks like harry's hair is off his forehead is the bit when
> the Bludger is released from the strap. Has anyone been able to
> freeze that bit so we can see if the scar is visible?
> I am not surprised that they gave him heavy bangs - it says very
> clearly in Book 1 that his hair was worn in a fringe - the bit where
> aunt petunia cuts everything but that is the longest description, and
> to be honest, since the first book cover I saw was for SS, not PS, I
> assumed he did have bangs/fringe, and it was just being blown back as
> he flew to catch the Snitch.
>

Here are some rather bad scren shots made by myself, they're rather
blurey to see, and  if I mak it bigger it gets really blury; but I did
makethem from the 10kb Quick time version.  I hope they work, I uploaded
them to geocities, and they sometimes mix up file names when you upload
more than one at a time, I really hate that!

Here they are:
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry1.jpg
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry2.jpg
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry3.jpg
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry4.jpg
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry5.jpg
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry6.jpg
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry7.jpg
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harryr8.jpg

An attempt to sharpen the closer shots, very bad though:
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry2-s.jpg
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry3-s.jpg
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry4-s.jpg
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry5-s.jpg

And Snape, because I wanted to:
http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/snape.jpg

-Kate, who has too much free time and no life

--
"So we reach into the raging chaos, and we pluck some
small glittering thing, and we cling to it, and tell
ourselves it has meaning, and that the world is good,
and we are not evil and we will all go home in the end."
- Lestat, "Tale of the Body Thief" by Anne Rice

Persephone's Lair: http://geocities.com/hermitchick
Harry and Draco Archive: http://geocities.com/harry_and_draco



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 00:15:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 00:15:02 -0000
Subject: Finding the trailer on Dark Horizons
Message-ID: <97pd26+dh8o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13410

Dark Horizons has been updated.  What you have to do is click on News 
& Rumours, scroll down to yesterday's date (March 1) and click on 
that, and you'll come to the page of March 1 updates.  The trailer 
links are about halfway down that page.

Boy, it's not often I can give any tech advice.

Still gritting my teeth over spotty Quicktime and spottier RealPlayer 
versions, but taking comfort in the superclear stills at 
redmailorder.com,

Amy Z

---------------------------------------
 If only the hat had mentioned a house 
 for people who felt a bit queasy, 
 that would have been the one for him.
     --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sat Mar  3 00:22:43 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 00:22:43 -0000
Subject: The trailer (Hagrid's line)
In-Reply-To: <fd.306c451.27d10497@aol.com>
Message-ID: <97pdgj+3r7p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13411

I know that Hagrid never says "Harry, you're the boy who lived"; 
however, I am not letting this bother me.  For one thing, I think it 
may mean that the bit in the book where people are meeting in secret 
and toasting "Harry Potter--the boy who lived!" is probably not in 
the film (just my opinion) and they wanted to get it in the film 
somewhere.  And for another, it wouldn't be the first time that a 
line is in the trailer but not in the final film version.  For 
example, when I went to see "My Best Friend's Wedding" I fully 
expected to hear Julia Roberts utter the line, "In situations like 
this, I try to figure out what Lucy Ricardo would do." (or something 
like that, my memory is a bit fuzzy) because it was in the trailer.  
But she never said it in the film.  So, we shall just have to wait 
and see!

Trina 




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 02:22:42 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 02:22:42 -0000
Subject: Screaming scene
In-Reply-To: <97p447+jk4u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97pkhi+8dp0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13412

Delurking for a sec to read trailer posts...

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> Did anyone think we were gonna get a  movie *without* a screaming 
> scene? From *this* director? At least they don't have their hands 
up 
> around their faces.
> Pippin

Aw, c'mon, Pip!  :-D  You can't say that Dan is a dead ringer for 
Macaulay Culkin (BTW, wonder what Home Alone Boy's up to these 
days?).  Just from the little we can discern from the trailer, I 
don't think a case can be made for sickly-sweet "I'm soo cute" 
acting.  Which was one of my fears about a live-action movie.  

Despite the screaming and giggling I've been doing to fandom friends 
via IM over the past 48 hours ("Aah!  I can't stop watching it, 
Carole!"), my optimism is still cautious.  It'll be great to come out 
of the closet to my sisters (who will LOVE the movie--they're just 
not big on recreational reading!), but it'll be even more great if 
some of the small nitpicks are corrected.

The Great Hall was perfect IMHO.  I always imagined a larger room, 
but after watching the trailer, it's now fixed in my memory and will 
remain there as I read.

I have to get used to seeing the actors in their roles, especially 
Emma and Rupert.  The glimpse of Felton made me exhale (winks at all 
the Draco fans)--yes, that's Draco.  Dan is perfect as Harry... hope 
they'll do movie versions of the PS and SS covers.  Except... where's 
the scar?  I know his hair's covering it, but...

Have no problem with the "Boy Who Lived" line, especially when it was 
my sig quote in early fandom days some months back.  What's wrong 
with slogans?  Campaigns are run, wars waged, and empires built on 
their foundation.  Ender Wiggin is the Xenocide and the Speaker for 
the Dead, Superman's Faster Than a Speeding Bullet... Harry Potter's 
the Boy Who Lived.  Works for me.

The Wingardium Leviosa business was too cute... now we'll have to 
endure months of the Feather Theory, right, Kathy and Mo?  

(Which reminds me.  Kathy and Mo and others of like temperament, go 
to ff.net and read "Picturesque"... you'll know why once you start 
reading it.  Penny and crew, read that one with a grain of salt, then 
if you're in the mood for fluff designed for those of our 
inclination, read "Dancing Shoes".)  ;-)

Back to deep lurkdom... 

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 02:39:56 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 02:39:56 -0000
Subject: Scar, Boy Who Lived (was Screaming scene)
In-Reply-To: <97pkhi+8dp0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97plhs+cp1v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13413

>Dan is perfect as Harry... hope 
> they'll do movie versions of the PS and SS covers.  

Dan is great, I agree, but if they're going to do a new cover, I wish 
it would have Jo's Harry drawing on it.  That's my Harry!

>Except... 
>where's 
> the scar?  I know his hair's covering it, but...

Am I being paranoid, or do you get the sense they're teasing us?  I 
can just see the editor now, deciding to cut an otherwise perfect shot 
out of the trailer because it shows The Scar and we aren't supposed to 
see it yet!

Or maybe they've decided to make Harry scarless.  I mean, 
it's not that central to the plot, right?  (evil screenwriter's laugh)

> Have no problem with the "Boy Who Lived" line, especially when it 
was 
> my sig quote in early fandom days some months back.  What's wrong 
> with slogans?  Campaigns are run, wars waged, and empires built on 
> their foundation. 

Well, there's your answer.  <g>

As I said, I really can't defend this opinion of mine rationally.  I 
think that, like anything else in writing, it is okay in moderation, 
but when you take fanfic as a whole, it goes way overboard.  I'm aware 
that that's very unfair--I can't hold it against one piece of fanfic 
(or one movie) that it does something that all the others do.  Still, 
when a writer is doing something that all the others do, it may be a 
warning sign.

Amy Z
running an all-PS/SS sigs special this week in honor of the trailer

------------------------------------------------------
 "We could all have been killed--or worse, expelled."
                   -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------------





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Mar  3 03:04:06 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 03:04:06 -0000
Subject: trailer music
In-Reply-To: <3A9FD95C.67BC4C7B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <97pmv6+6mof@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13414

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Caius Marcius wrote:
> 
> > Trailers do not necessarily use the score of the finished film. 
This
> > far in advance, Williams probably hasn't even completed it. It may
> > have been Danny Elfman that you heard: I wish I had a nickel for 
every
> > time I've heard his Beetlejuice score in another movie's trailer.
> 
> Okay, you can have the nickels for Beetlejuice if I can have the 
ones
> for Carmina Burana. Deal?
> 
> 
We'd make a fortune - or should I say a "Fortuna"? 

 - CMC (way Orff-track)




From kathleen at carr.org  Sat Mar  3 03:02:41 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:02:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wingardium Leviosa (trailer)
Message-ID: <200103030307.f2337T613150@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 13415

Ebony wrote:
>The Wingardium Leviosa business was too cute... now we'll have to
>endure months of the Feather Theory, right, Kathy and Mo?

You betcha!  I have to say, seeing a Ron and Hermione scene in the trailer 
made me grin like an idiot.


>(Which reminds me.  Kathy and Mo and others of like temperament, go
>to ff.net and read "Picturesque"... you'll know why once you start
>reading it.

Oh, Ebony, I've missed you and your wonderful recommendations!  Off to read it 
now... (but maybe I'll watch the trailer just one more time first...)

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From shades_of_black at mail.com  Sat Mar  3 03:20:02 2001
From: shades_of_black at mail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:20:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wingardium Leviosa (trailer)
Message-ID: <387945975.983589602917.JavaMail.root@web349-mc>

No: HPFGUIDX 13416

Ebony wrote:
>The Wingardium Leviosa business was too cute... now we'll have to
>endure months of the Feather Theory, right, Kathy and Mo?

<You betcha!  I have to say, seeing a Ron and Hermione scene in the trailer
made me grin like an idiot.>

Ditto on the grinning...that was such an awesome scene. But what do you mean
by the Feather Theory?

Ginny Love, Blythe Spirit, MC, or Loser With Too Many Names


______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup



From morine10 at aol.com  Sat Mar  3 03:44:21 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:44:21 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wingardium Leviosa Scene
Message-ID: <80.794d2d4.27d1c295@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13417

In a message dated 3/2/01 9:24:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ebonyink at hotmail.com writes:


> The Wingardium Leviosa business was too cute... now we'll have to 
> endure months of the Feather Theory, right, Kathy and Mo?  
> 

Ah yes, my favorite scene from the trailer.  I'll *try* to wait until I see 
the movie before I make any comments.  However I suggest that we reserve the 
acronym WLFT for future use.  ; )

-Mo
Peace, Love, Harry Potter ~8^)
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Wonderful girl.  Either I'm going to kill her or I'm beginning to like her." 
                      -Han Solo, Star Wars Episode IV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sat Mar  3 04:32:15 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:32:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Cedric, with a stab at definition
In-Reply-To: <3A9DC465.B5666C79@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103022022320.6796-100000@er2.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13418

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> My second point to the above is that we are an adult literary discussion
> group, so we needn't worry about whether a 12 yr old child would
> understand Jen's homo-erotic literary crit analysis of the Harry/Cedric
> dynamic (or what said 12 yr old might think of that analysis).  This
> group is for adults to discuss the books after all.  :--)

Thanks, Penny!  That's exactly how I feel about it.  And even a true
'children's book', if there can ever be such a thing, is susceptible to
literary analysis.  While the 12 yr old's reactions might be interesting
for, say, a reader-response based criticism, they're irrelevant, at
best, to the particular analysis I'm offering.

> I'd also second Amanda's request for a nice definition of
> homo-erotic, just for discussion purposes.  :--)

Amanda's request:
> Could someone define "homoerotic" for me, then? I'm perfectly capable
> of appreciating that another woman is beautiful, without any erotic
> content in the observation.

Since I didn't want this discussion to be too much my own (inevitably
idiosyncratic) point of view, I spent about half an hour in the library
yesterday looking at various handbooks and lexica of literary criticm
and theory and critical theory, and eventually found *one* definition of
homoerotic:

"Homoerotic denotes erotic (though not necessarily overtly sexual)
depictions that imply same-sex attraction or that might appeal sexually
to a same-sex reader, for example a sensually evocative description of
women in the process of helping each other undress or of nude men
bathing in a pond.  Such depiction can occur in any medium, such as
film, painting, sculpure, photography, and, of course, literature."  L.
Tyson, _Critical theory today: a user-friendly guide_ (New York and
London: Garland, 1999), 322.

It's not a definition I'm entirely happy with, as I hope to make clear
shortly, but it's a starting place.  I was completely unable to find any
sort of scholarly genealogy for the term (who coined it, who's used it,
etc.).  But it's part of the widely varied approaches that make up
what's known as queer theory, a type of critical theory which owes much
of its impetus and terminology to feminist criticism.  I had hoped that
Eve Kosofsky Sedgewick would have used it, but no, she doesn't.  
Nonetheless, I think most uses of the term are informed by readings of
her work (_Between Men: English Literature and Male Homosocial Desire_;
_Epistemology of the Closet_, particularly).

Homoerotic is basically a term used in contrast with two others:
homosexual and homosocial.  It is used specifically to describe
portrayals (as in literature or film) of same-sex eroticism; you would
never say, "The poet Walt Whitman was homoerotic."  (I'm sorry if any of
this is obvious.)  You could, however, say that "Whitman's poetry is
highly homoerotic."  It does not necessarily imply same-sex sexual
behavior; one can argue that, for example, the letters of Pliny the
Younger to the historian Tacitus have homoerotic overtones without ever
suggesting that Pliny was having any sort of 'affair' with Tacitus.  (I
mention, only in passing, that Whitman once, after a letter from a
(male) admirer suggested that it might be, maybe, remotely possible that
Whitman himself had been with a man sexually, responded vehemently in
the negative, (feigning to be) shocked that anyone could make such a 
suggestion...)  Similarly, homosexual is generally reserved as a
description of behavior, rather than portrayals of the expression 
of emotion.  (I leave aside the question of whether it should be applied
as a label of identity rather than behavior.)  One would much more
regularly describe Michelangelo's David as homoerotic than
homosexual.  

IOW, despite the claim of my otherwise very reliable Webster's
Collegiate dictionary, homoerotic is not a synonym for homosexual.

A second distinction between these two words is in the use of the noun
'homoeroticism', which *is* used to refer to behavior rather than
portrayal, for the period before the word 'homosexuality' is appropriate
(in accordance with Foucauldian analysis of the construction of the
concept of homosexual/gay identity in the 20th century).  One thus will
see reference to, for example, 'female homoeroticism in ancient Greece',
where behavior is actually meant.  Such use should be avoided, however,
in my opinion.  I tend to go for the rather more cumbersome, but more
accurate, 'same-sex sexual behavior' or 'same-sex sexual/affectional
relationship' vel sim.  But this distinction is obviously tangential to
HP, which is a 20th/21st c. work.

Homoerotic can also be used to refer to behavior and emotions that,
while not sexual proper, are heading, as it were, towards the sexual.  
In these cases, homoerotic signals mainly the lack of any possibility of
genital contact, while not precluding other sorts of physical contact
(hugging, kissing, etc.).  This point is where there can begin to be
some fuzziness of the sort that Amanda was alluding to.  The erotic is
not the sexual, but it can be extremely difficult to say exactly what
the difference between the two is, as it can be very difficult to
distinguish the erotic from the so-called platonic.  Intensity and
exclusivity are two important markers of the erotic here.  This usage
definitely has heterosexual in mind as the contrast, actually, rather
than homosexual, and is, I think, mainly current in the social sciences.

The other term from which homoerotic is distinguished is homosocial,
which properly refers to same-sex relationships which are formally
lacking in sexual or erotic elements.  In reference to activities,
homosocial is used of what is more commonly termed, for instance,
male-bonding.  It can also be used (unlike homoerotic) of people, to
refer to those whose primary preference is to associate (as friends, as
colleagues, etc.) with their own gender.  It thus can also be opposed to
homosexual -- a gay man whose friends are primarily women could be said
to be homosexual, but heterosocial.  Institutions and such are often
described as homosocial.  

But again, the categories begin to overlap to some extent, and it is
completely unclear (particularly before the turn of the century, again
relying on Foucauldian analysis of the history of sexuality) where to
mark the boundary between homosocial and homosexual, which exist rather
(in Sedgwick's analysis in _Between Men_) on a continuum.  She
introduces the concept of 'homosocial desire', a term which is in many
instances synonymous, as I understand her, with 'homoerotic'.  
(Genital) sexuality / sexual activity is not at issue, but the *emotion*
which otherwise might give rise to sexual behavior is there in the text.

Homoerotic is also used particularly of texts that are 'non-gay',
whether because of time period (pre 20th c.), or because of their
homophobic main text, or because, as in HP, of the supposed absence of
gay issues.  

I hope that helped, and didn't just make things more confusing!  My own
field is Classics, so I also hope I've not made any misrepresentations
when making statements about the word's usage outside of Classics (which
is entirely possible).  I'm trying to be more general than just Latin or
Greek literature, and I might be losing a little of the specificity of
definition in so doing.

Amanda:
> To expand in rambling fashion--I think it's a mark of a great work,
> that it can be validly interpreted any number of ways. [Best
> example: the Bible.]

I agree, absolutely.  And I'm *definitely* not claiming that my reading
of the Harry/Cedric relationship is the only 'correct' one.  Most works
of literature can be interpreted through any critical method/theory,
though certain works lend themselves more easily to analysis by certain
methodologies.  One could offer all sorts of literary analyses of HP 
-- Freudian, Lacanian (the Mirror of Erised *g*), feminist, New
Critical, deconstructionist, reader-response, etc., etc... (And of
course, the relationship between David and Jonathan or Ruth and Naomi
in the Bible has been read as homoerotic...)

> So I'm certain the homoerotic reading of this scene has some
> validity, but this discussion seems to be edging the way of the
> theories of Marja Gambutas 
<snip of discussion of Gimbutas' theories about the prehistoric goddess>
> Thus I'm asking for a definition, for clarity's sake.

I hope I've made it a little bit clearer that the term does have a
fairly rigorous meaning, though it can sometimes be applied a little
loosely, particularly for polemic's sake.  To be more explicit --
aesthetic appreciation and erotic appreciation are certainly not the
same thing.  But neither are they entirely discrete categories.  There
can (must) be overlap between the two, just as there can (must) be
overlap between the erotic and the sexual.  In literary analysis there
will be at some point a subjective judgement call as to when something
is erotic and when it is not; language and context are the two most
important factors in this decision.  I've tried to show how I see both
language and context contributing to a homoeroticized portrayal of
Harry's feelings for Cedric in the Yule Ball scene, but I think one
would have a much more difficult time, for example, showing any
eroticism in Harry's feelings for Ron.  Though there are no fixed
criteria, all I can say is that there must be specific evidence from a
text that demonstrates eroticism to call a passage homoerotic.  But
precisely *what* such evidence consists of is a matter of debate.

Moving on...

AmyZ wrote:
> Girls follow him around as much as they do Viktor Krum; people wear
> "Support Cedric Diggory" badges (is this treating someone as an
> object of desire?  My lit-crit jargon is rusty); he is the stand-in
> for all Hufflepuffs in their usually-thwarted dreams of glory.  He
> is their champion.

I don't have my copy of GoF here, so I can't look at the text as I would
like to.  I suspect that there is some eroticism implicit in the
description of girls following him (opposite-sex eroticism is always
less problematic than same-sex eroticism)...  but I'd *really* have to
look at the text to know about the badges bit.  It's well within the
realm of possiblity that such a scene could be (homo)erotic, but it
could also not be.  Does anyone want to quote the text?  The mere fact
of his being a role model definitely doesn't make him an object of
desire.  Only if there is a slippage between a desire to be Cedric and a
desire for Cedric would there be eroticism.

--jen, heeing the cries of 'enough already'! :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From purdymango1 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 04:53:01 2001
From: purdymango1 at yahoo.com (Teek)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 20:53:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (trailer) question on the Great Hall
In-Reply-To: <389402606.983563155445.JavaMail.root@web149-mc>
Message-ID: <20010303045301.15661.qmail@web4705.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13419


--- Morsus Crustum <shades_of_black at mail.com> wrote:

> As for the now infamous Scream scene... There is not a scene where
> this
> happens. At all. So this means they have changed the script. I
> seriously
> doubt that this is the ghost-in-the-Great-Hall thing, simply
> because they
> weren't standing together at that point (and if they were, Neville
> would be
> with them since he was in thier boat), there isn't anyone else
> around, they
> turn and run away, and, um, the trump card: wizards and witches
> would know
> about ghosts. For cripe's sake, Ron has a goul living in his attic
> (better
> than a skeleton in his closet, LOL

'nother reason it can't be the ghost scene at the sorting - they're
wearing the gryfindor ties, not the black ones with the crest seen at
the sorting. If they've fogotten the pajamas/neville in the fluffy
scene I will be more than frustrated, but that seems the most likely
posibility right now. Neville could possibly be standing off screen,
I think there might be a shadow there. They're right in front of a
door, which they run towards... They never run from the troll all
together like that. 

I have the horrible feeling we won't know until November, and with
our luck, that particular shot will end up on the cutting room floor.

I've been watching it, and I LOVE Emma Watson, she's growing on me.
She's VERY Hermione, if not the one that lived in my head.
And my parents were spazzing out about how wonderful Snape is going
to be... hehe. It's nice to be around Potterphiles all day.
-Teek

__________________________________________________
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From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 04:58:22 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 04:58:22 -0000
Subject: trailer help (no spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <20010303045301.15661.qmail@web4705.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <97ptle+sbg2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13420

I've watched the high res quick time version several times, but when 
I right click, I can't a.)save or b.) get a frame URL so I can play 
it on the quick time program (not the teeny little quick time window) 
and see it BIG.

Windows media gives me sound and no pics; when I right click I get a 
URL that won't work in the Media Player itself.

Can anyone email me a URL off-list or give me some tips on making it 
work? I have a large monitor and would like to see the darned trailer 
bigger than a 3 by 4 inch box.

Thanks,
Heather M.




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 05:02:01 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:02:01 -0000
Subject: He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Name (who Voldemort?) Shhh!!!!
Message-ID: <97pts9+kr31@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13421

I know that it's not time for our discussion on everyone's favourite 
villian, but the it is scheduled for next week so I will jump ahead. 
I'm sort of responding to something that was posted in the past week 
(what I can't remember after plowing through 300+ messages. Do ya 
think I need a rememberall? No don't answer that I would just forget 
where I'd put it...)

Nota Bene: I am NOT supposed to be giving Voldy's character summary, 
and that's NOT what this is. It's only my ramblings on the big V.

"Could you write it down?" Harry suggested?

"Nah-can't spell it. All right- *Voldemort*." Hagrid shuddered. "Don' 
make me say it again..."

--Would there be a Harry Potter story without Voldemort? Probably 
not. Yet as important to the plot as he is there are some real 
problems with him in my opinon. Voldemort may be a murdering 
psychopath but he is your TYPICAL murdering psyhopath. He is very 
predictable. 

In other words, Hannibal Lecter he's not. (However I liked Hannibal 
the movie and loved Scilence of the Lambs. The books were still 
better though. As much as I probably should hate Hannibal "the 
Cannibal" I don't. I really wanted him and Clarice to get together at 
the end, as unrealistic as that is...erm how did I get on THIS 
subject? Oh yeah-)

Cedric Diggory's death showed that Voldemort was evil, and that he 
didn't care who he killed to get what he wanted. However Voldemort 
himself had no personal connections to Diggory, (does he have any 
personal connections to ANYONE) and so this made it seem I don't know 
"less". A villian that can kill his "friends" without any remorse is 
far scarier than one that simply kill those that he doesn't know to 
gain power. Perhaps this is a personal perception.

Voldemort is to me the weakest part of the HP stories, (the Trio's 
friendship being one of the strongest).  He was in book one and he 
tried to kill Harry. Harry wins, and he HAS to so that he can be in 
book II right? In the second he tries yet again to kill Harry...and 
so on. That is why I liked PoA so much because Harry was dealing with 
"inner demons" brought out through the Dementors instead of a 
storybook villian.

Again I am NOT saying that Voldemort is not a serious villian or that 
the war he will seemingly cause in future willn't be devastating and 
hit Harry and our other characters very hard. But evil as a concept 
can be more frightening than its incarnation (i.e. Voldy). So what is 
scarier- Voldemort himself, or how people become Voldemort?  

How will Harry continue to fight the big V in the future?
Will Harry defeat Voldemort completely at the end of book seven, even 
if it kills him?* 
*(Will he defeat VOLDEMORT not necessarialy EVIL?)

Scott
Who has decided to once again use his favourite sig...
Oh by the way that last picture of Harry smiling in the Trailer DOES 
look like John Lennon.
______________________________________________________________________

"I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in 
fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your 
mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the 
here and now?  Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." - John 
Lennon 

 







From wings909 at aol.com  Sat Mar  3 05:09:52 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:09:52 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Name (who Voldemort?) Shhh!!!!
Message-ID: <6c.83c96f2.27d1d6a0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13422

In a message dated 03/03/2001 12:03:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
harry_potter00 at yahoo.com writes:

<<  A villian that can kill his "friends" without any remorse is 
 far scarier than one that simply kill those that he doesn't know to 
 gain power. Perhaps this is a personal perception. >>

If that is true Scott...then what do you think about V killing his father?  
Didn't seem to me that V was remorseful telling Harry about that.  "I killed 
my father, and see how useful he has proved himself, in death..."

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From kris403 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 05:20:23 2001
From: kris403 at yahoo.com (kris403 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:20:23 -0000
Subject: trailer
Message-ID: <97puun+v8g7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13423

I give up.  I can't possibly keep up with all the posts on this site.  The trailer was wonderful.  I thought I had the scream scene figured out, then I reread a chapter, saw the trailer again... and no.  

I can't believe how observant everyone is.  I think we have to be realistic though and realize that some things will have to be changed from the books.  Not every line will be the same, and unfortunately we won't get to see the thoughts inside Harry's head at times.  I can deal with the small changes.  I've heard that quiddich may not be as in depth as the book because of special effects, and that other scenes will incorporate more than what was in the book.  That is all fine.  I was simply terrified that this would end up a movie where the book and the movie are not even related.  I'm sure you have all read a book, then viewed the movie, only to wonder how they ever got the script.  I don't think that will be a problem in this case.  

Also, I have seen many trailers that have used scenes that have never made it into the movie.  I always left the movie wondering if I missed something.  That is probably the case with the boy who lived line.  It's there right now for show.  It's big, dramatic.  The book line, while we all love it, isn't as bold for a trailer.  I guess we'll all just have to wait.  

I for one was very happy to see that there didn't seem to be a lot of phony looking computer animation.  The goblins were real, not generated.

November seems forever away.




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 05:22:06 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:22:06 -0000
Subject: (trailer) Screams, and Great Hall...
In-Reply-To: <20010303045301.15661.qmail@web4705.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <97pv1u+lgcl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13424

Ok Moderators can one of you explain why we're using a spoiler? I 
mean who HASN'T seen the thing?
H
U
R
R
Y
 
A
N
D

W
A
T
C
H

I
T

O
K
!
!
Morsus Crustum wrote:
As for the now infamous Scream scene... There is not a scene where
this happens. At all. So this means they have changed the script. I
seriously doubt that this is the ghost-in-the-Great-Hall thing, simply
because they weren't standing together at that point (and if they 
were, Neville would be with them since he was in thier boat), there 
isn't anyone else around, they turn and run away, and, um, the trump 
card: wizards and witches would know about ghosts. For cripe's sake, 
Ron has a goul living in his attic (better than a skeleton in his 
closet," 

Teek wrote
'nother reason it can't be the ghost scene at the sorting - they're 
wearing the gryfindor ties, not the black ones with the crest seen at
the sorting. If they've fogotten the pajamas/neville in the fluffy
scene I will be more than frustrated, but that seems the most likely 
posibility right now. Neville could possibly be standing off screen, 
I think there might be a shadow there. They're right in front of a 
door, which they run towards... They never run from the troll all 
together like that."

--I thought that maybe this is that scene where they've gone through 
the trapdoor and land on that plant and they are screaming because it 
is growing out toward them. However if they follow the book them they 
won't be screaming after they get away b/c they'll already know what 
it is, and I REALLY don't want them to change that part. (THERE'S NO 
WOOD, honestly are you a witch or not!)

"I have the horrible feeling we won't know until November, and with 
our luck, that particular shot will end up on the cutting room floor."

--We can guess all we want but we won't know for sure until then. 
You're right though, after all that editing what we saw will likely 
end up being very little if any of the finished product. 
 
"I've been watching it, and I LOVE Emma Watson, she's growing on me.
She's VERY Hermione, if not the one that lived in my head.
And my parents were spazzing out about how wonderful Snape is going 
to be... hehe. It's nice to be around Potterphiles all day." 

--Who's Emma Watson? That's Hermione up there! Her expression is 
PERFECT!!! God, but I'm in love with that little girl.

About the Great Hall- what is everyone talking about. The door table 
relationship is how I've always pictured it. What is this other way 
you guys were discussing? I'm just confused I guess.

Scott
______________________________________________________________________

"I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in 
fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your 
mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the 
here and now?  Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." - John 
Lennon 





From whimzical at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 05:25:48 2001
From: whimzical at yahoo.com (Julie Smith)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 21:25:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unforgivable Curses
Message-ID: <20010303052548.36321.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13425

 Okay, enough posts about the movie trailers already!
It's crazy. Okay, so I have two questions:

1) In PoA, Harry corners Sirius and contemplates
killing him. Sirius asks Harry if he's going to kill
him. Earlier in the book, Ron and Hermione are afraid
that Harry is going to try and find Sirius and seek
revenge (presumably kill him) So the question is, how
would Harry be able to kill him, or anyone? It's
pretty clear he was going to do it with his wand. In
GoF when they learn about the Killing Curse from
Moody, he says something like 'the Avada Kedavra curse
needs a powerful bit of magic behind it, you all could
point your wands at me and say those words and I doubt
I'd even get a nosebleed' So how could Harry alone
kill Sirius?

2) This doesn't really have a point but...wouldn't
Voldemort get bored and tired of the same three curses
over and over again? I mean, obviously he's a pretty
powerful and intelligent wizard, somewhat of a
criminal mastermind perhaps, surely he would lose
enjoyment after awhile. The killing curse is so
simple, just mutter a few words and bang-they're dead.
No challenge, no thinking behind it, no great
accomplishment. I can see how the Imperius curse would
amuse him for awhile....but the Cruciatus curse? After
watching hundreds of people being tortured in the
exact same way every time the novelty must wear off.
 If V is as intelligent and powerful as we've assumed,
I believe he would yearn for a challenge, something to
test his great mind, push the envelope further than
torturing Muggles and mudbloods.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 05:25:00 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:25:00 -0000
Subject: He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Name (who Voldemort?) Shhh!!!!
In-Reply-To: <6c.83c96f2.27d1d6a0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <97pv7c+921a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13426

Paula wrote:
"If that is true Scott...then what do you think about V killing his 
father? Didn't seem to me that V was remorseful telling Harry about 
that.  "I killed my father, and see how useful he has proved himself, 
in death..."

--Oops! (very embarassed!) Of course you're right! What was I 
thinking about? This does seem to prove that Voldemort is more of 
what I was just arguing he wasn't. 

I think I need sleep...

Scott
______________________________________________________________________

"I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in 
fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your 
mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the 
here and now?  Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." 
- John Lennon 




From summers.65 at osu.edu  Sat Mar  3 05:37:01 2001
From: summers.65 at osu.edu (summers.65 at osu.edu)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:37:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 625
Message-ID: <v02140b2bb6c63255260c@[140.254.113.133]>

No: HPFGUIDX 13427

>
>Message: 1
>   Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:53:53 EST
>   From: wings909 at aol.com
>Subject: Order of the Phoenix Pre-Sale
>
>This may already be old news or not, but Amazon.com has The Order of the
>Phoenix on pre-sale.  They have the publication date set for 2002!
>
>Amazon.co.uk doesn't have the OotP on pre-sale yet, but they do mention
>that GoF will be on sale in paperback in July 2001.
>
>Well, at least we have the Quidditch Though the Ages, and Fantastic Beasts
>books to help us with the withdrawal.
>
>Cheers,
>Paula
>Gryffindor (86% obsessed...I've lost my mind)
>
>
Unlikely about GoF paperback.  PoA isn't even out yet.  It should come out
in paperback this summer and GoF next year in summer.

Lori


**************************************************
Lori   "Too Much Ponch, Not Enough Jon"  Summers

     "Do you know why you're afraid when you're alone?"
                                --Vincent Gray

Last movie seen:  "Hollow Man"
Discman's spinning:  "Pleasantville" soundtrack
Nighttable:  "The List of 7" by Mark Frost
***************************************************





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 05:44:21 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:44:21 -0000
Subject: Killing Curses (was Unforgivable Curses)
In-Reply-To: <20010303052548.36321.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <97q0bl+qtc8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13428

Julie asked:
1) In PoA, Harry corners Sirius and contemplates
killing him. Sirius asks Harry if he's going to kill
him. Earlier in the book, Ron and Hermione are afraid
that Harry is going to try and find Sirius and seek
revenge (presumably kill him) So the question is, how
would Harry be able to kill him, or anyone? It's
pretty clear he was going to do it with his wand. In
GoF when they learn about the Killing Curse from
Moody, he says something like 'the Avada Kedavra curse
needs a powerful bit of magic behind it, you all could
point your wands at me and say those words and I doubt
I'd even get a nosebleed' So how could Harry alone
kill Sirius?

--Well there are lots of way to kill someone. Harry could have 
levitated Sirius at a great height and dropped him, or levitatied 
something very heavy over top of him and dropped it. He could even 
have used a severing charm, like Ron did on his robes, on Sirius' 
neck. However I imagine that it was mostly blind rage talking and 
Harry didn't really have a clear imtention or plan of How to kill 
Sirius.

AK is sort of like a gun in the muggle world. Not the only way to 
kill someone but certainly one of the most common, and quickest. 
Harry could have used another spell more akin to stabbing someone or 
drowning them- a messier spell and a messier death. Voldemort most 
likely sticks to AK cause it's the quickest.

Scott
What a wonderful subject to discuss before bed.
______________________________________________________________________

"I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in 
fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your 
mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the 
here and now?  Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." 
- John Lennon  




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Mar  3 05:52:14 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:52:14 -0000
Subject: He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Name (who Voldemort?) Shhh!!!!
In-Reply-To: <97pts9+kr31@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97q0qe+hlmu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13429

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:

>
> 
> Cedric Diggory's death showed that Voldemort was evil, and that he 
> didn't care who he killed to get what he wanted. However Voldemort 
> himself had no personal connections to Diggory, (does he have any 
> personal connections to ANYONE) and so this made it seem I don't 
know 
> "less". A villian that can kill his "friends" without any remorse 
is 
> far scarier than one that simply kill those that he doesn't know to 
> gain power. Perhaps this is a personal perception.

Look at Chap 32/33 of GoF: Just think of Voldy's flippant 
indifference to Wormtail's sacrifice (which, if I pat myself on the 
back, I think I portrayed fairly well in my most recent filk), or his 
casually sadistic taunting of the returning Death-Eaters. JKR 
powerfully gives us the sense that he would kill any of them with the 
flimsiest pretext, without the slightest remorse.  

And is Hitler - who primarily murdered "those he [didn't] know" - any 
less evil than Stalin,  the majority of whose victims came from among 
his "own" people?  

I'm working on an essay for HP4GU about a man named Enver Hoxha. If 
you think EVil in the ultimate sense is merely a literary 
affectation, a deeper acquaintance with the likes of Mr. Hoxha might 
give you a different persepective.

Who is Evner Hoxha? He was the dictator of Albania at the time that 
Lord Voldemort was exiled to that most unhappy of nations....   

    - CMC




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat Mar  3 06:05:16 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:05:16 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Killing Curses (was Unforgivable Curses)
References: <97q0bl+qtc8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c0a3a7$ec377fe0$a84e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13430

1.  He could have beat Sirius to death with it...or stabbed him....just because it's a piece of wood doesn't mean it can't be lethal in a blind rage.

Saitaina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Mar  3 06:31:02 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 06:31:02 -0000
Subject: trailer trivia
Message-ID: <97q336+n3o2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13431

OK, kids, (oh wait I mean grownups) now that you have watched the 
trailer a kazillion times, WITHOUT WATCHING IT AGAIN OR LOOKING AT 
STILLS, answer this:

What is the serial number on the Hogwarts Express?

First one to answer wins Witch/Wizard of the Week award.

--Joywitch




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat Mar  3 06:37:04 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:37:04 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] trailer trivia
References: <97q336+n3o2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009a01c0a3ac$5da3eb60$a84e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13432

5972?  Or was it 5729...one of those two I believe.


Saitaina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainesj at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 07:02:24 2001
From: rainesj at hotmail.com (Justin Raines)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 07:02:24 -0000
Subject: Screaming Scene (Trailer)
Message-ID: <97q4u0+mqdr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13433

I think this is probably the scene from Chapter 9 when Harry, Ron and 
Hermione are trying get to the room where Harry was supposed to duel 
with Draco.  When Mr. Filch get close to them, they run away and 
Hermione opens a locked door with a spell.  They turn around and find 
Fluffy, the three headed dog that is guarding the entrance to where 
the Stone is hidden.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar  3 08:06:43 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 08:06:43 -0000
Subject: He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Name (who Voldemort?) Shhh!!!!
In-Reply-To: <6c.83c96f2.27d1d6a0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <97q8mj+b20e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13434

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> harry_potter00 at y... writes:
> > A villian that can kill his "friends" without any remorse is 
> > far scarier than one that simply kill those that he doesn't know
> > to gain power. Perhaps this is a personal perception. 
> 
> If that is true Scott...then what do you think about V killing his
> father? Didn't seem to me that V was remorseful telling Harry about
> that.  

Tom Marvolo Riddle's father was NOT someone that TMR liked, not 
someone he had spent time with. TMR's father was someone whom TMR 
hated and wanted revenge on. TMR told Harry that his father had 
deserted his mother before he was born. I have no reason to doubt 
that statement; if I did, I would have to think up another reason why 
a child with a living parent -- a *prosperous* living parent -- 
would have to live in an orphanage.

TMR told HP that his parents were married but his father deserted his 
pregnant mother because he found out that she was a witch, thus 
motivating his us-against-them hatred of Muggles. I don't doubt that 
he believed that -- neither his maternal grandparents nor the 
orphanage people would have been really eager to tell him that he was 
not only an accident but a bastard -- but it may not be true. It 
could be that his parents were not married nor even engaged, that his 
father never even knew that his mother was a witch, that his father's 
desertion of his mother consisted of refusing to marry her or even 
pay child support when she told him she was pregnant. 

I really appreciated the irony of TMR growing up to lead a mage 
anti-Muggle crusade out of deep rage at how he himself had been hurt 
by a Muggle's anti-mage prejudice, when really mage vs Muggle had 
nothing to do with it and it would have been more relevant for him to 
crusade against premarital sex.




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Mar  3 08:10:12 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 08:10:12 -0000
Subject: trailer trivia
In-Reply-To: <009a01c0a3ac$5da3eb60$a84e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97q8t4+e265@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13435

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:
> 5972?  Or was it 5729...one of those two I believe.
> 
> 
> Saitaina
> 
> 
It WAS 5972!  It only took 3 minutes for someone to post the correct 
response!  Are we obsessed or what?????

I declare Saitaina to be Witch of the Week.  Or, possibly, Wizard of 
the Week.  (My virtual gender identification skills are weak, which 
possibly explains the problems I have with...on second thought, lets 
not go there.)

--Joywitch




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat Mar  3 08:15:03 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:15:03 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: trailer trivia
References: <97q8t4+e265@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017001c0a3ba$0d8a8400$a84e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13436

Wow I got it right...helps I was watching it in slow motion all night last night.  And I'm female love.

Saitaina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar  3 08:21:56 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 08:21:56 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Hierarchy?
In-Reply-To: <d.10f60926.27d130fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <97q9j4+2s6u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13437

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> This has been bugging me for quite a while in regards to Prefects
> and Head Boys and Girls.
> 
> How many Prefects can each house have?
> Was Percy the only one for Gryffindor?
> How are the Prefects chosen? Good grades, teachers vote?
> According to my best guess, Percy was a Prefect in his fifth year,
> so is year 5 the year that you can be chosen to be Prefect?

I hope John Walton is writing the FAQ on prefects, because last year 
he wrote a detailed and extremely funny description of prefects at 
his boarding school.

John indicated that his school's opinion of how many Prefects each 
House should have is the more prefects there are, the more can 
share the work. 

However, discussion on this list has often sounded to me like most of 
the people on this list think Hogwarts has six prefects per House -- 
one boy and one girl from each of fifth, sixth, and seventh year. The 
prefects are chosen by the faculty and list people seem to believe 
that good grades must have something to do with it. I say, it CANNOT 
be limited to students of good behavior and obedience to the rules, 
or James Potter, well known to the Head of his House as a big-time 
troublemaker and rulebreaker, would not have a prefect. I think John 
said that one well-known troublemaker at his school was made a 
prefect as an effort to correct his behaviour.

I'm inclined to think that Hogwarts faculty, when choosing prefects, 
would take into consideration which kids were already leaders in 
their Houses -- which could possibly result into making Neville a 
prefect in order to force him to grow a spine.

There is only ONE Head Boy and ONE Head Girl for the entire school. 
Where does it say that Penelope was Head Girl?





From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 08:53:40 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 08:53:40 -0000
Subject: OOT - **% obsessed?
Message-ID: <97qbek+3p1l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13438

Where is everyone getting these **% Harry Potter obsessed? I want one! 
*lol*

~*Vicki Granger*~




From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 09:17:04 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 09:17:04 -0000
Subject: The Feather Theory?
Message-ID: <97qcqg+ij32@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13439

OK, I should have posted this before... with my other incredably short 
post but I've been going through messages and the Feather Theory came 
up a couple of times... but no post explaining it... what IS the 
Feather Theory?

~*Vicki*~




From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 10:34:38 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael-pou)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:34:38 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: trailer trivia
References: <97q8t4+e265@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE9gJKVApwOLZCHusMj00001c91@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13440

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: joym999 at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 10:10 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: trailer trivia


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:
  > 5972?  Or was it 5729...one of those two I believe.
  > 
  > 
  > Saitaina
  > 
  > 
  It WAS 5972!  It only took 3 minutes for someone to post the correct 
  response!  Are we obsessed or what?????

  I declare Saitaina to be Witch of the Week.  Or, possibly, Wizard of 
  the Week.  (My virtual gender identification skills are weak, which 
  possibly explains the problems I have with...on second thought, lets 
  not go there.)

  --Joywitch

OMG! I'm so embarrassed! I just saw the message, but knew the answer immediately - 5972. I swear I'm not that obsessed! I just wanted to see if they made sure it's the same number in both scenes (of course it is!) I only watched it about four times and, oh, all right, another time to see if the downloaded file was okay, and another to make sure it had no jumps. Oh, and two more with my husband (the first time, the speakers were turned too low, we had to watch it again). I was just standing aside when i let my daughters view it. Just watching over the computer - they're too little to handle it alone. So what if they don't know who Harry Potter is?

About Saitaina - She's a she. Definitely a she. She's the most beautiful witch in my fic. Writing a 800K fic doesn't make me obsessed does it?

Head turned down shamefully,
yael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar  3 10:27:52 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 04:27:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Screaming Scene (Trailer)  Waiting for November
References: <97q4u0+mqdr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00cc01c0a3cc$9b2ac060$2714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13441


  From Justin Raines:

  I think this is probably the scene from Chapter 9 when Harry, Ron and 
  Hermione are trying get to the room where Harry was supposed to duel 
  with Draco.  When Mr. Filch get close to them, they run away and 
  Hermione opens a locked door with a spell.  They turn around and find 
  Fluffy, the three headed dog that is guarding the entrance to where 
  the Stone is hidden.

  Although, from evidence cited earlier, I am reluctantly willing to give up my ghost theory, I have to disagree with your idea for the same reasons ... the scene in the movie was shot during the day. The Fluffy scene happened at night ... and there is the bath-robes problem too.

  I had toyed with the thought of waiting until the 17th or 18th to see the movie on a night that I am not scheduled to work. Then, after reading all of these trailer posts, I decided that there is no way that I could be the only one in the group who had not seen the movie yet. It would mean staying away from my computer for a day or two, which we won't even discuss here because the thought is just too ugly to contemplate.
  Doreen 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com  Sat Mar  3 12:50:50 2001
From: ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com (Erich)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 07:50:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Screaming Scene (Trailer)
References: <97q4u0+mqdr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f501c0a3e0$93939b60$3b82d2cc@rochester.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13442

That could be it, but where is Neville?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Justin Raines 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 2:02 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Screaming Scene (Trailer)


  I think this is probably the scene from Chapter 9 when Harry, Ron and 
  Hermione are trying get to the room where Harry was supposed to duel 
  with Draco.  When Mr. Filch get close to them, they run away and 
  Hermione opens a locked door with a spell.  They turn around and find 
  Fluffy, the three headed dog that is guarding the entrance to where 
  the Stone is hidden.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sat Mar  3 13:01:32 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:01:32 -0000
Subject: London Meet up - 14th March
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEELMDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13443

Hello Group members,

This message is aimed at those who live in and around London (the one that
is the capital of the UK rather than one of the several others I found maps
for earlier when doing an on line search!).

A few of us are planning to get together on the evening of Wednesday 14th
of March. We plan to partake a little bit of food and then to sit in a pub
and talk about various things. You never know Harry Potter may get
mentioned!

Current plan is to meet somewhere in either the Victoria Station,
Piccadilly Circus or Oxford Circus area. Exact details will depend on who
is going to be there and where they are going to and from.

If you are interested in being at this gathering then contact me and we can
arrange the details.

E-mail: simon.Branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk . That is
simon.branfordathertford.ox.ac.uk (where you substitute a @ for the at in
the middle).


Simon
--
Dominus Illuminatio Mea ...
"The Lord is my light, and my salvation; whom shall I fear?"
-Psalm 27
---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Mar  3 12:42:17 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:42:17 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Spoilers on the trailer
References: <97pv1u+lgcl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <015901c0a3df$76816580$203370c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 13444

Scott said:

<<Ok Moderators can one of you explain why we're using a spoiler? I mean who
HASN'T seen the thing?>>

Early on (and not in full-on Moderator costume, I admit), I suggested that
people use spoiler space if they were making any detailed comments about the
trailer, but since most people didn't do that, it has become a bit
pointless.  There may be some people who haven't had a chance to see the
trailer yet (perhaps for technical reasons), so if people could at least
mention "trailer" or "movie trailer" in their headers - as most of us have -
those who haven't seen the trailer will have the choice of skipping those
posts.  Other people, of course, have watched the trailer hundreds of times
(if so, I'd say you can add at least 10% to your obessiveness score!).

I cannot imagine what the posting rate here will be like when the film
itself is released, but I look forward to Dr Branford's frame by frame
description of the film <g>

Neil
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (ignition on)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From tominvermont at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 13:55:04 2001
From: tominvermont at yahoo.com (Tom Hansen)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 08:55:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Screaming Scene (Trailer)  Waiting for November
In-Reply-To: <00cc01c0a3cc$9b2ac060$2714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <B6C661E7.45F6%tominvermont@yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13445

On 3/3/01 5:27 AM, "Doreen" <nera at rconnect.com> wrote:

> Although, from evidence cited earlier, I am reluctantly willing to give up my
> ghost theory, I have to disagree with your idea for the same reasons ... the
> scene in the movie was shot during the day. The Fluffy scene happened at night
> ... and there is the bath-robes problem too.

Just because it looks like daytime now, doesn't mean it will stay that way.
Many "night" scenes are actually shot with a lot of light and then later
adjusted to look like nighttime.


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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 14:14:34 2001
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (neptune_1984)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 08:14:34 -0600
Subject: trailer music
References: <983562601.3243.64637.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ac01c0a3ec$4aec8dc0$90301a3f@f7yt10b>

No: HPFGUIDX 13446


>>Trailers do not necessarily use the score of the finished film. This
far in advance, Williams probably hasn't even completed it. It may
have been Danny Elfman that you heard: I wish I had a nickel for
every time I've heard his Beetlejuice score in another movie's
trailer.

    - CMC<<

I'm glad I'm not the first one to notice this. "Beetlejuice" being my second
favorite movie (and being my favorite movie since the age of 6), it quite
peeved me. Another score that's used over and over (and not just in movie
trailers; I once heard it during the World Series) is the score for "Dragon
Heart".

--Erin

================
Share this dragon
if you do,
lucky end
for  them and you
<\-/>
 | " |
(o_o)









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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar  3 14:52:25 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:52:25 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Hierarchy?
In-Reply-To: <97q9j4+2s6u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97r0f9+b1uk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13447

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> > This has been bugging me for quite a while in regards to Prefects
> > and Head Boys and Girls.
> > 
> > How many Prefects can each house have?
> > Was Percy the only one for Gryffindor?
> > How are the Prefects chosen? Good grades, teachers vote?
> > According to my best guess, Percy was a Prefect in his fifth year,
> > so is year 5 the year that you can be chosen to be Prefect?
> 
>  
> However, discussion on this list has often sounded to me like most 
of 
> the people on this list think Hogwarts has six prefects per House --
 
> one boy and one girl from each of fifth, sixth, and seventh year. 

This seems like an awful lot ~ 24 prefects? If Hogwarts is (as many 
think) a small school, is this not too many? In a school of about 600 
we have 14 "pupil officers" ~ 10 prefects, head boy and girl and 
deputy head boy and girl. We have no sixth form so all are from fifth 
year. I was under the impression when I read the books that prefects 
were from fifth year and that the heads were ex-prefects in the 
seventh year. This leaves out the sixth years, so I'm not too sure 
whether this can be right.

>The 
> prefects are chosen by the faculty and list people seem to believe 
> that good grades must have something to do with it. 

Grades tend to have less bearing on this than characteristics like 
responsibility and of course the ability and willingness to take on 
extra duties. At our school, pupils in fifth year vote for the pupil 
officers then the teachers vote from a shortlist. This does not 
happen at Hogwarts because it would have probably been mentioned by 
now. I think that house rivalry may cause problems in fair voting, so 
perhaps the head of each house gives the names of a few students to 
Dumbledore to make the final decision. Head boy and girl would then 
be chosen from those who had made good prefects, I suppose.

Sarah




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sat Mar  3 15:11:32 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:11:32 -0000
Subject: Job description (Re: Hogwarts Hierarchy?)
In-Reply-To: <d.10f60926.27d130fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <97r1j4+clfq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13448

After reading the responses in this thread, I have a couple 
questions. What exactly do Prefects and Heads do? That is, what role 
do they play in the student body? Are they the equivalent of the 
student government/council schools in the US have? 

:-)Milz




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Mar  3 15:15:45 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:15:45 -0000
Subject: London Meet up - 14th March
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEELMDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <97r1r1+nfvg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13449

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" <simon.branford at h...> wrote:
> Hello Group members,
> 
> This message is aimed at those who live in and around London (the 
one that
> is the capital of the UK rather than one of the several others I 
found maps
> for earlier when doing an on line search!).
> 
> A few of us are planning to get together on the evening of Wednesday 
14th
> of March. We plan to partake a little bit of food and then to sit in 
a pub
> and talk about various things. You never know Harry Potter may get
> mentioned!
> 
> Current plan is to meet somewhere in either the Victoria Station,
> Piccadilly Circus or Oxford Circus area. Exact details will depend 
on who
> is going to be there and where they are going to and from.

Hi!
I am so jealous!  I wish I lived in London so I could meet with other 
grownups to discuss Harry Potter!
Maybe we can have a get together in New York City, because that is my 
home!  
Please share your get together with the rest of us online!
--Jenny
> 
> If you are interested in being at this gathering then contact me and 
we can
> arrange the details.
> 
> E-mail: simon.Branford at h... . That is
> simon.branfordathertford.ox.ac.uk (where you substitute a @ for the 
at in
> the middle).
> 
> 
> Simon
> --
> Dominus Illuminatio Mea ...
> "The Lord is my light, and my salvation; whom shall I fear?"
> -Psalm 27
> 
-----------------------------------------------------------------




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Sat Mar  3 14:41:34 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 09:41:34 -0500
Subject: trailer music - A new filk?
References: <97oh2b+lsnf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c0a3f5$0b7b0320$575dd63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13450

I enjoyed the trailer and see that the usual flood of emails has started
again.  This happens with every new Harry Potter event.  I felt inspired to
poke a little fun at the process.  I hope no one gets too offended.  Maybe
just a little offended.  By the way, what does filk stand for?  I write a
lot of silly songs, but I didn't know there was a name for it.


Sung to the tune of "Lucille" by Kenny Rogers

You picked a fine time to start a new film  (New words by Randy Estes)

I woke up this morning
And glanced at the email
And saw that everyone has a new rash.
They saw a new trailer
Then the comments start flailin'
You know they're actin' just like "trailer trash" !

It'll take a long time to release this film !!
With four movie trailers and a few hundred stills.
Harry's had some bad times, and lived through some sad times
But the fans need to all take a pill !
It'll take a long time to release this film!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 11:17 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: trailer music


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marvin Long, Jr." <msl at f...> wrote:
> >
> > Love the trailer, but the music sounds to my ears more like the
> sort of
> > thing Danny Elfman would write for a Tim Burton movie than the
> usual John
> > Williams.  Also, the way the WarnerBros. logo dissolves into owls
> is just
> > so "Batman."  Urk.
>
> Trailers do not necessarily use the score of the finished film. This
> far in advance, Williams probably hasn't even completed it. It may
> have been Danny Elfman that you heard: I wish I had a nickel for
> every time I've heard his Beetlejuice score in another movie's
> trailer.
>
>     - CMC
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also
consult our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>





From msl at fc.net  Sat Mar  3 15:34:58 2001
From: msl at fc.net (Marvin Long, Jr.)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 09:34:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Death Eaters
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10103021429400.4832-100000@freeside.fc.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13451

Catlady <catlady at wicca.net> said:

>Marvin wrote:
>> After all, the only reason to follow Voldemort is because he
>> offers a quick avenue to power, and V's supporters are too
>> shrewd not to understand that V considers them his tools.
>> To keep their pride they regard V as their tool in turn and,
>> I'm sure, all would be happy to betray V for the sake of
>> their own advancement,

> That describes Lucius Malfoy and perhaps Nott Sr who spoke in such a
> manipulative voice, but isn't it more likely that the reason Crabbe Sr
> and Goyle Sr joined the Death Eaters is because Lucius told them to, and
> that what they enjoy about it is not power, but simply the opportunity
> to hurt/kill people?
>
> Mrs  Lestrange, Crouch Jr, and perhaps others in Azkaban or who died
> resisting arrest are passionately loyal to Voldemort, perhaps because
> they expect him to give them something 'better' than power (perhaps
> immortality for themselves).
> Probably some people joined the Death Eaters out of sincere
> anti-Mudblood feelings.

Ok, I'll rescind my earlier generalization and say that yes, people would
have joined Voldemort's gang for a variety of motives--avenue to power,
Voldemort as Messiah, chances to kill people, fear the mudbloods are
lowering property values, etc.

But I want to ask another question:  what are the motives of the people
who return to Voldemort's side in GoF?  One gets the feeling that
Karkaroff and Snape are the only holdouts, and everybody else is
demonstrably someone more interested in saving his own skin than in
making a statement on Voldy's behalf by going to prison.

Fear and curiosity are part of it, I'm sure.  Possibly Crabbe Sr. & Goyle
Sr. are as easily led as their sons and do whatever Malfoy tells them so
long as it involves blood.  But I cannot believe, at this point, that any
of them can be as sincere as they were 15 years ago or so.  In the
intervening time they must have enjoyed a chance to say to themselves,
"Thank [whoever] that's over; I nearly got myself sent to (*$&*! Azkaban!"

On the other hand, perhaps some will be so impressed by Voldy's
resurrection that their faith will be redoubled.  Well, except for Harry
out-dueling him, of course.  So what kind of conversations will the Death
Eaters have amongst themselves...

"I *knew* this day would come, I knew it!  Now all mudbloods will perish
in agony!"

"Are you nuts?  Lord Voldemort just got his butt handed to him by a little
kid!  Something is not right with this picture."

"Coward?  Pay you no heed to the stars?  They fortell war and suffering
and a change in the nature of things."

"So?  How do you know that's not us suffering and getting our souls sucked
out by dementors after we lose the war because Voldemort's been a nutjob
all along?"

(A high, shrill, sinister voice pierces the air.)

"That's LORD Nutjob to you, Goyle."  KA-zam!


Marvin Long
Austin, Texas






From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Sat Mar  3 16:04:09 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 11:04:09 -0500
Subject: This must be a Filk - Randy & Carole's status
References: <002f01c0a2c6$56bfab40$7f5fd63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <005a01c0a3fb$95f11f20$575dd63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13452

For sorting purposes to the great HP librarians in cyberspace, this now has
the filk title for easy sorting.  I assume that allows most people to sort
it into the round file more quickly.

Thanks to Neil for the compliment.  I apologize for being out of touch for
so long.  I have allowed my job to interfere with my Harry Potter activities
over the last 6 months.  I have to work extra hours to support my wife's HP
habit. nowadays.

Carole feels guilty about not getting her Serious Sirius summary out yet.  I
think my Non-Serious summary is just fine and stands alone.  She actually
missed a few days because we took a 5 day vacation to Phoenix, Arizona.
Heaven forbid she actually go out into the sunshine for a few days instead
of hibernating in cold Massachusetts with her space heater and internet life
support system.

While in Phoenix, we stayed with some old friends for two nights and found a
new HP victim.  She had only read 3 of the books so far.  Carole has now
hooked her onto fanfic and email support groups.  Deanna has not been
branded with the HP "Net Eaters" emblem.  She is now drawn to the net by the
flashing of her brand.  I admit that I have been disloyal to the Net Eaters
for the last few months, so Lord Gates will be angry with me!  Perhaps if I
sacrifice my right mouse button, he will allow me to live.

I do miss the days when I could read all of the message posts for  the day
in an hour before I left work.  Alas, the Net Eaters have grown to such a
large number, I must defer to my wife's summary's of what is happening.  As
you can tell by my Trailer Trash song, I suffer from Foot in Mouth disease.
I guess it was that beef I ate in Germany a couple of year's ago.  Ha.

Ravenclaw Randy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at earthlink.net>
To: "HPforGrownups" <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 10:10 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Harry Potter Song


> Sung to the tune of "Feelin' Alright"  by Dave Mason of Traffic
>
> Feelin' Alright  ( Harry's version)  by Randy Estes
>
> Seems I've got to have a change of scene.
> "Cause every night I have the strangest dreams.
> Awakened by the pain coming from my scar.
> A green flash, a woman's voice, it's so bizarre.
> I've got to leave before I start to scream
> But Voldemort's alive, and coming after me !
>
> You Feelin' Alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.
> Well you feelin' alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.
>
> Well, they say I saved the world from He who shan't be Named.
> But he just killed my folks, you know, Lily and James.
> And when I think of them, I start to cry.
> I just can't waste my time, I must keep dry
> Gotta learn my magic spells, cant' stop and wonder why.
> "Cause there's too much to do before I die.
>
> You Feelin' Alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.
> Well you feelin' alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.
>
> I saw my family while lookin' in the mirror.
> Though Dumbledore said stop and let your mind clear.
> But that was then, now it's today
> I can't stop now, I've got dragons to evade.
> Till Voldemort comes back in a bowl next to a grave
> With a brand new body, and Wormtail as his slave.
>
> You Feelin' Alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.
> Well you feelin' alright?  I'm not feelin' too good myself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also
consult our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>





From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 16:37:48 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 16:37:48 -0000
Subject: paperbacks
In-Reply-To: <v02140b2bb6c63255260c@[140.254.113.133]>
Message-ID: <97r6ks+cdeo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13453

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., summers.65 at o... wrote:
> >This may already be old news or not, but Amazon.com has The Order 
of the
> >Phoenix on pre-sale.  They have the publication date set for 2002!
> >
> >Amazon.co.uk doesn't have the OotP on pre-sale yet, but they do 
mention
> >that GoF will be on sale in paperback in July 2001.
> >
> >Well, at least we have the Quidditch Though the Ages, and 
Fantastic Beasts
> >books to help us with the withdrawal.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Paula
> >Gryffindor (86% obsessed...I've lost my mind)
> >
> >
> Unlikely about GoF paperback.  PoA isn't even out yet.  It should 
come out
> in paperback this summer and GoF next year in summer.
> 
> Lori

Hi all!

Amazon UK has the GoF paperback scheduled for summer. PoA _is_ out in 
the UK. I have one and lots of others do, as well. PoA should be out 
this summer here (according to a local bookstore).

Hope this clears things up.

Heather




From wings909 at aol.com  Sat Mar  3 16:38:59 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 11:38:59 EST
Subject: Snape's Potion Class
Message-ID: <59.79d1f07.27d27823@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13454

For those on the list with AOL, they now have a link on the main, page to the 
HP trailer and some of the merchandise that will be sold for the movie.  One 
of them, is "Snape's Potion Class".  This is hysterical..."Brush up on your 
spells and potions with this cool laboratory.  Use the magic wand and 
bubbling cauldron to mix-up 16 different drinks and over 1,000 different 
yummy treats."

God help the parents of HP fans.....I'll say a prayer for you!

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 16:47:17 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 16:47:17 -0000
Subject: TR: Feather theory - Screaming - Unforgivable
Message-ID: <97r76l+gb7n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13455

(TR stands for TRailer, not Tom Riddle.)

Vicki wrote:

>the Feather Theory came 
>up a couple of times... but no post explaining it... what IS the 
>Feather Theory?

It's a joking jab at R/H shippers, suggesting that we are going to 
come up with a theory in which the Wingardium Leviosa scene proves Ron 
and Hermione belong together.  And we will, we will...just give us 
time!

It seems clear that there is no way to account for the screaming scene 
without a change from the book to the movie.  Bathrobes and time of 
day are unimportant to me, but a lack of Neville, if this is indeed th 
e meeting-Fluffy scene, is a shame.  

I wanted a glimpse of Neville in the trailer.  I suppose he is in the 
Charms class but I can't pick him out on my screen, and 
redmailorder.com is being updated.  Maybe in another, longer 
trailer--will we see one, or more, between now and November?  Hedwig 
or someone else who knows these things, can you tell us?

And how does one find out who scored a trailer?  Look in Variety?

Julie asked:

>So the question is, how
>would Harry be able to kill him, or anyone? It's
>pretty clear he was going to do it with his wand.

I posted a similar question awhile back, and got similar responses:  
he could throttle him with his bare hands, drop a heavy weight on him, 
stab him . . . in short, it became clear that the people on this list 
are folks you do not want to cross.

All very possible answers, but it still seems to me that Harry had 
something magical in mind and that while he might not actually 
be capable of killing someone with any curse he knows, Sirius thought 
it was possible.  Crookshanks is in between Harry's wand and Sirius's 
heart, which means, Harry reflects, that Harry would have to kill him 
too; this wouldn't make sense if Harry were just going to strangle him 
(though it would if he were going to drop the chest of drawers on him 
<g>).  And clearly, Harry now has the upper hand because, and only 
because, he has a wand and Sirius doesn't.

I think there must be curses besides AK that directly kill someone.  
(Another listie suggested turning someone's aorta to tissue 
paper--yikes.)  They must qualify as Unforgivable also, unless they 
are easier to block than AK and therefore less dangerous.  ??

Julie:

> wouldn't Voldemort get bored and tired of the same three curses
> over and over again? <snip> I can see how the Imperius curse would
> amuse him for awhile....but the Cruciatus curse?

I look at it this way: the man is a sadist.  He gets a charge out of 
seeing people in pain, just as he gets a charge from feeling his power 
over them.  We see it clearly in the way the 16-year-old Riddle talks 
about Ginny.  I'm sure he does enjoy elaborate plots and the many 
spells that are at his fingertips, but I doubt he ever finds Cruciatus 
boring.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------
"And now, before we go to bed, let us sing the school 
song!" cried Dumbledore.  Harry noticed that the other 
teachers' smiles had become rather fixed.
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
-------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 16:52:13 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 16:52:13 -0000
Subject: *Whose* Potion Class?!
In-Reply-To: <59.79d1f07.27d27823@aol.com>
Message-ID: <97r7ft+8n4c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13456

Paula wrote:

> For those on the list with AOL, they now have a link on the main, 
page to the 
> HP trailer and some of the merchandise that will be sold for the 
movie.  One 
> of them, is "Snape's Potion Class".  This is hysterical..."Brush up 
on your 
> spells and potions with this cool laboratory.  Use the magic wand 
and 
> bubbling cauldron to mix-up 16 different drinks and over 1,000 
different 
> yummy treats."

Uh . . . yummy treats?  In SNAPE'S class??  Not unless you like 
sauteed frog liver.  As for the drinks, if they want to be realistic 
they'll have to teach kids how to make delicious, bubbly sulfuric 
acid.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
"Flint nearly kills the Gryffindor Seeker,
which could happen to anyone, I'm sure . . . "
	    -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
----------------------------------------------




From klaatu at primenet.com  Sat Mar  3 17:39:40 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:39:40 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Potion Class
In-Reply-To: <59.79d1f07.27d27823@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEGIDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13457

Good grief!  Not only does Harry Potter get boys to read a book... Now he's
going to teach them how to COOK!

When my sister and I were home alone during summer vacation in grade school,
we used to get out a big mixing bowl and put a dollop of EVERYTHING IN THE
KITCHEN into the bowl... spices, ketchup, mustard, milk, flour, pickle
relish, brown sugar.  Ooof, my stomach turns as I think of it.  It ALWAYS
ended up brown.  And no, we never tasted it.  We just gloated over it and
then threw it away and cleaned up before Mom got home from work.  Snape
wouldn't have been pleased at all.

SML

==============================================
"Harry," said Lockhart, his large white teeth
gleaming in the sunlight as he shook his head.
"Harry, Harry, Harry."
Completely nonplussed, Harry said nothing.
   ---Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
==============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: wings909 at aol.com [mailto:wings909 at aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 9:39 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Potion Class


For those on the list with AOL, they now have a link on the main, page to
the
HP trailer and some of the merchandise that will be sold for the movie.  One
of them, is "Snape's Potion Class".  This is hysterical..."Brush up on your
spells and potions with this cool laboratory.  Use the magic wand and
bubbling cauldron to mix-up 16 different drinks and over 1,000 different
yummy treats."

God help the parents of HP fans.....I'll say a prayer for you!

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor

_______________________________________________

Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also consult
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm

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From katie at vquill.com  Sat Mar  3 17:39:50 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 09:39:50 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] (trailer) question on the Great Hall
In-Reply-To: <389402606.983563155445.JavaMail.root@web149-mc>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010303093704.00a40700@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13458

At 02:59 PM 3/2/01 -0500, you wrote:

>
>As for the now infamous Scream scene... There is not a scene where this
>happens. At all. So this means they have changed the script. I seriously
>doubt that this is the ghost-in-the-Great-Hall thing, simply because they
>weren't standing together at that point
>
>MC/Blythe Spirit/Dervish


Yeah, I don't see this actually happening... It's really the only part of 
the trailer I don't like. I think it's definitely where Chris Columbus' 
"Home Alone" feel is shining through. (And sorry, but I hate that sort of 
thing. :D)

It looks cartoonish, not realistic.  There *are* points in the book that 
could look cartoonish (say, Ron and his slugs for example...) but this 
scene just really sorta bothered me :/

-Katie





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 17:49:07 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 17:49:07 -0000
Subject: Snape's Potion Class
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOGEGIDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <97raqj+p0r0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13459

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:
"Good grief!  Not only does Harry Potter get boys to read a book... 
Now he's going to teach them how to COOK!"

--That would be astounding wouldn't it? (I for one have always loved 
to cook.)

"When my sister and I were home alone during summer vacation in grade 
school, we used to get out a big mixing bowl and put a dollop of 
EVERYTHING IN THE KITCHEN into the bowl... spices, ketchup, mustard, 
milk, flour, pickle relish, brown sugar.  Ooof, my stomach turns as I 
think of it.  It ALWAYS ended up brown.  And no, we never tasted it.  
We just gloated over it and then threw it away and cleaned up before 
Mom got home from work.  Snape wouldn't have been pleased at all."

--Haven't we all done this? I know I did! No Snape wouldn't be 
pleased at all. ("Five points from Gryffindor!") But if there goal is 
to teach kids to become chefs I'm not sure that Snape is the best way 
to market it.

Scott
Who is laughing at the thought of Snape in a chef's outfit...
______________________________________________________________________

"I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in 
fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your 
mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the 
here and now?  Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." 
- John Lennon 




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 17:57:23 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 17:57:23 -0000
Subject: Death Eaters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10103021429400.4832-100000@freeside.fc.net>
Message-ID: <97rba3+vsu8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13460

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marvin Long, Jr." <msl at f...> wrote:
> Catlady <catlady at w...> said:
> 
> >Marvin wrote:
> >> After all, the only reason to follow Voldemort is because he
> >> offers a quick avenue to power, and V's supporters are too
> >> shrewd not to understand that V considers them his tools.
> >> To keep their pride they regard V as their tool in turn and,
> >> I'm sure, all would be happy to betray V for the sake of
> >> their own advancement,
> 
> > That describes Lucius Malfoy and perhaps Nott Sr who spoke in 
such a
> > manipulative voice, but isn't it more likely that the reason 
Crabbe Sr
> > and Goyle Sr joined the Death Eaters is because Lucius told them 
to, and
> > that what they enjoy about it is not power, but simply the 
opportunity
> > to hurt/kill people?
> >
> > Mrs  Lestrange, Crouch Jr, and perhaps others in Azkaban or who 
died
> > resisting arrest are passionately loyal to Voldemort, perhaps 
because
> > they expect him to give them something 'better' than power 
(perhaps
> > immortality for themselves).
> > Probably some people joined the Death Eaters out of sincere
> > anti-Mudblood feelings.
> 
> Ok, I'll rescind my earlier generalization and say that yes, people 
would
> have joined Voldemort's gang for a variety of motives--avenue to 
power,
> Voldemort as Messiah, chances to kill people, fear the mudbloods 
are
> lowering property values, etc.
> 
> But I want to ask another question:  what are the motives of the 
people
> who return to Voldemort's side in GoF?  One gets the feeling that
> Karkaroff and Snape are the only holdouts, and everybody else is
> demonstrably someone more interested in saving his own skin than in
> making a statement on Voldy's behalf by going to prison.
> 
> Fear and curiosity are part of it, I'm sure.  Possibly Crabbe Sr. & 
Goyle
> Sr. are as easily led as their sons and do whatever Malfoy tells 
them so
> long as it involves blood.  But I cannot believe, at this point, 
that any
> of them can be as sincere as they were 15 years ago or so.  In the
> intervening time they must have enjoyed a chance to say to 
themselves,
> "Thank [whoever] that's over; I nearly got myself sent to (*$&*! 
Azkaban!"
> 
> On the other hand, perhaps some will be so impressed by Voldy's
> resurrection that their faith will be redoubled.  Well, except for 
Harry
> out-dueling him, of course.  


Its an interesting question. I think the problem arises for us 
because Voldemort and his supporters are supposed to be totally evil. 
That makes it contradictory for them to have any attribute that we 
think of as good - loyalty, courage, perseverance. So we naturally 
look for ulterior motives - they are not really loyal to Voldemort, 
they want to get something out of serving him. After all, if a person 
supports total evil, how can we say of her that she is sincere? For 
one, we can't understand it (I hope), and secondly, sincerity is a 
good quality so an evil person can't be sincere. 
I don't think we should disbelieve the Death Eaters' sincerity in 
their support of Voldemort (obviously some may have ulterior motives 
too). I personally prefer (in fiction!) the darker and more 
incomprehensible motivation - attraction to evil. People who are not 
strong enough to be evil by themselves join Voldemort because he 
makes it possible for them (because he is powerful). Think of fan 
letters that serial killers get. These "fans" couldn't possibly think 
they will "get something" from him, when he's in jail for the rest of 
his life! So they must be sincere in their - admiration? - for him, 
probably because he stands for something inside them. I think its the 
same thing for the Death Eaters and Voldemort.

Naama




From katie at vquill.com  Sat Mar  3 17:59:51 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 09:59:51 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: trailer music
In-Reply-To: <97oh2b+lsnf@eGroups.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10103020812230.38043-100000@freeside.fc.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010303095009.00b1d770@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13461

At 04:17 PM 3/2/01 +0000, you wrote:
>
>Trailers do not necessarily use the score of the finished film. This
>far in advance, Williams probably hasn't even completed it. It may
>have been Danny Elfman that you heard: I wish I had a nickel for
>every time I've heard his Beetlejuice score in another movie's
>trailer.
>
>     - CMC

John WIlliams has a little more range than people are giving him credit for 
here. ;)  His fanfares certainly don't sound like this music does, but he's 
quite capable of writing music that isn't a fanfare.  You won't find 
anything like this in Superman, or star wars or maybe even Indiana Jones -- 
but I do have the Jurassic Park soundtrack, and there are plenty of things 
that aren't all trumpets blaring. ;)

Maybe William's listened to Elfman for inspiration... ;D  (teehee)

The music at end of the scene with Hermione and her feather, and the 
begginning of the scene in the forbidden forest is practically right out of 
Star Wars. ;)  Right after that, all of that trumpeting is just screaming 
Williams at me. ;)  Elfman isn't as obsessed with making sure the trumpets 
always have something to play... Sort of that pisses me off about Williams, 
actually. I play clarinet, but the brass got all the good parts!

When the bludger is let free -- I think of Star Wars again.

And the woodwinds always get those horrible parts where you just play the 
same freaking note five million times fast. So Williamsy (think Superman... 
I hate playing that thing...)

-Katie





From editor at texas.net  Sat Mar  3 18:10:59 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:10:59 -0600
Subject: A.P.R.M.L.A.T.F.P.O.
Message-ID: <3AA133B3.9964C8C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13462

For all of you out there who have memorized the book, and are going
crazy trying to place the now-infamous "Screaming Scene" from the
trailer--I have a therapy program!

Amanda's Pre-Release Movie Letdown Avoidance Therapy for Potter
Obsessives

1. Become familiar with the following definitions:
         a. "adapt" -- to make fit (as for a specific or new use) often
by modification
         b. "adaptation" -- something that is adapted: specif. a
composition rewritten into a new form.

Repeat these definitions aloud until you can say "modification" and
"rewritten" without choking, coughing, gagging, passing out, or other
generally negative reactions.

2. Go to the various HP sites, and follow links to various JKR,
screenwriter, etc., interviews, and read again how they are encouraging
her input, trying to remain true to her vision, etc.

3. Realize that JKR's vision is a broad one, not necessarily confined to
the specific words in the book, no matter how we might have our favorite
lines.

4. Watch the trailer again (or view the stills, for those of you like me
who have computer imps who delight in confounding you), and soak up the
atmosphere. Realize that in the face of most of our experience with
movie adaptations, they seem to have accurately caught the "feel" of the
world and the character of its inhabitants.

5. Remember that the special effects are being done by some of the
finest effects people on the planet.

6. Remember that the cast is, unbelievably, talented enough to keep the
focus on THEM and not on the special effects.

Okay, are you calmed down now? Because without a doubt there will be
major things that have been altered. I'm certain the screaming scene is
either the troll or Fluffy, and we all know they're dressed wrong. So
what? Some changes must be made for an adaptation to screen. Plot
devices are compressed, some things are left out, etc. Because the goal
is a film that can translate the STORY told in the book, not the book
itself.

I'm approaching the film as a version of a story I love, and I'm not too
worried. I do understand that quality pieces (actors, effects, music,
etc.) do not necessarily make a quality whole, but JKR's involvement,
and now the trailer, seems to indicate that this is going to be really
good.

Hope I helped!

--Dr. Amanda




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 19:11:14 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:11:14 -0600
Subject: FOOD!
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10103020812230.38043-100000@freeside.fc.net> <4.2.0.58.20010303095009.00b1d770@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <017601c0a415$c43bdd60$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13463

Due to the amount of talk about food on the various lists, I thought it
might be easier to have all the recipes (hopefully?) and discussion located
on one spot!

Here goes!

http://beta.groups.yahoo.com/group/HP4GUFoodGroup

And, surprisingly, we've got 4 members so far!  Thanks guys!


~~Dee~~
:)
______________________________________________
 ICQ me @ 21282374
For those who love Dark Shadows:
http://beta.groups.yahoo.com/group/DarkShadows
______________________________________________




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Mar  3 18:18:27 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 18:18:27 -0000
Subject: the trailer again
In-Reply-To: <OE9gJKVApwOLZCHusMj00001c91@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <97rchj+t203@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13464

I had a thought about the Screaming Scene.  The only possible scene 
in the book that fits the feel of that sort of fright is, IMHO, the 
scene after the midnight trophy room visit where they stumble on to 
Fluffy.  Of course, as lotsa folks have noticed, that scene is 
supposed to have Neville in it.  But the way the scene is shown in 
the trailer, it looks like Neville could just be outside the shot.  
In other words, the trailer just shows focuses in on the famous three 
and Neville is off to one side, same with the next scene where they 
are running -- Neville could be running behind them.  Or, possibly, 
the screenwriter took some liberties and edited Neville out of that 
scene but I hope not.

Did anyone other than me think that the trailer had a creepy, Tim 
Burton-ish sort of feel to it?  Personally, that made me really happy 
because I love Tim Burton and wish he were directing the movie.

Oh, I am so impressed by the level of obsessiveness in Yaels post 
that I declare her to be Assistant Witch of the Week.  She can help 
Saitaina stir her cauldron.

--Joywitch




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 18:20:09 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 18:20:09 -0000
Subject: Death Eaters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10103021429400.4832-100000@freeside.fc.net>
Message-ID: <97rckp+209c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13465

Marvin wrote:
"But I want to ask another question:  what are the motives of the 
people who return to Voldemort's side in GoF?  One gets the feeling 
that Karkaroff and Snape are the only holdouts, and everybody else is
demonstrably someone more interested in saving his own skin than in
making a statement on Voldy's behalf by going to prison.

"Fear and curiosity are part of it, I'm sure.  Possibly Crabbe Sr. & 
Goyle Sr. are as easily led as their sons and do whatever Malfoy 
tells them so long as it involves blood.  But I cannot believe, at 
this point, that any of them can be as sincere as they were 15 years 
ago or so.  In the intervening time they must have enjoyed a chance 
to say to themselves, 'Thank [whoever] that's over; I nearly got 
myself sent to (*$&*! Azkaban!'"

--There might be some people, like Lucius who never really 'turned 
good' in that Voldemort-less space of time. Then again Lucius and 
others may still have kept their biggoted views, but they definately 
didn't march around saying look at me I'm a Deatheater. Those former 
DE's were in a pretty bad spot when you think about it. If they 
stayed pro-Voldy then they risked being sent to Azkaban. If they went 
back to the good side (like we assume that Snape did) then they 
risked being killed and tortured by Voldy if he ever came back.  
There was not a really good choice for them to make. It was a bad 
situation and they were afraid, of the good, of Voldemort, of the 
faithful DE's, the non-faithful ones, anyone who diagreed with them. 
The majority of the DE's probably tried to melt away, and if they 
were caught made up lies to get out of the tight spot they'd gotten 
into. 

NB:But I'm not say that Lucius was afraid of Dumbledore of anything. 
I'm mostly talking about the other DE's...the vast majority of which 
we don't know.

Marvin wrote:
"On the other hand, perhaps some will be so impressed by Voldy's
resurrection that their faith will be redoubled.  Well, except for 
Harry out-dueling him, of course.  So what kind of conversations will 
the Death Eaters have amongst themselves..."

--Exactly! Those DE's who came back to Voldemort and thought they 
really had saved their skins by coming back may have second thoughts. 
I mean a BABY "defeat" their lord the first time and now at fourteen 
that kid is still managing to escape death from someone who has dealt 
out death to God knows how many. Would YOU be willing follow someone 
who claims to be powerful but can't even stop a scrawny little kid?
What must they have been thinking when they saw the fright on V's 
face during PI? I'd guess that doubt had to of crossed their minds.

Scott
______________________________________________________________________

"I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in 
fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your 
mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the 
here and now?  Reality leaves a lot to the imagination."
 - John Lennon 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 18:35:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 18:35:02 -0000
Subject: Chef Snape - Scream - Death Eaters
Message-ID: <97rdgm+lqmi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13466

SML wrote:

>Good grief!  Not only does Harry Potter get boys to read a book... 
Now he's
>going to teach them how to COOK!

LOL!  We can only hope so!

I bet little Sev started out just like you and your sister...except 
that he actually ate the stuff (correction: fed it to his sister's 
puppy).  But now he demands a little more precision from his students.

Katie wrote of the scream:

>It looks cartoonish, not realistic.  

It'll depend on the context.  If the preceding shot is of 
something really scary and their screams sound really scared, it'll be 
fine, IMO.

>There *are* points in the book that 
>could look cartoonish (say, Ron and his slugs for example...) but 
this 
>scene just really sorta bothered me :/

Ugh, add that to Scenes I Don't Want to See.  But if Columbus directs 
CoS, we can bet it'll be in there.  Nothing wrong with a little 
grossout humor--I laughed so hard when Ron snorted slugs all over the 
pumpkin patch--but it might make me ill.

Naama wrote:

>I think the problem arises for us 
>because Voldemort and his supporters are supposed to be totally evil. 
>That makes it contradictory for them to have any attribute that we 
>think of as good - loyalty, courage, perseverance.

Yes, and I think they do have those attributes.  Loyalty, courage, and 
perseverance are three perfect examples of qualities that one can put 
to the service of good ends or evil ones.  I think V's followers are 
motivated by a lust for power (plus a good dose of race hatred), and 
whatever qualities they have that could be powerful forces for good 
are turned to evil.

One of my favorite lines (I have a lot of those <g>)--hope it makes it 
into the film:  "There is neither good nor evil, there is only power, 
and those too weak to seek it..." (Quirrell's new creed, 291 US ed, 
"The Man with Two Faces").  The difference between good people and 
evil ones isn't usually their talents, or even many of their qualities 
such as loyalty, IMO; it's their choice of where to put those 
energies.  And whether they want power for themselves or use it only 
for the good of others.  Harry can get the Stone only because he 
doesn't want to use it for unworthy ends, i.e., because he refuses to 
abuse, or even use, its power.

Basically good people can fall prey to the love of power, also--that's 
what Dumbledore says is happening to Fudge ("you are blinded by the 
love of the office you hold," GF page whatever, "The Parting of the 
Ways").  Fudge is (probably) the farthest thing from a Death Eater, 
and he has used his power mostly to good ends thus far, but now that 
he has to choose between that power and facing the truth, he seems to 
be failing.  

But anyway, I think by the end of GF, it's going to take a lot of pure 
terrorizing to keep the DE's in line.  As Marvin wrote:

>On the other hand, perhaps some will be so impressed by Voldy's
>resurrection that their faith will be redoubled.  Well, except for 
>Harry out-dueling him, of course.  So what kind of conversations will 
>the Death Eaters have amongst themselves...

I really wonder what V said to them all after Harry Portkeyed out of 
there.  Voldemort, thinking fast:  "Okay, the only way that could've 
happened is if Potter's wand has a feather from the same phoenix as 
mine!  What are the chances--one in a million!  Right, boys?  Right?!" 
 Death Eaters mutter to themselves, thinking, "Yeah, there's always 
some excuse:  'His mother was there.' 'It was his wand.'"  I think 
it's going to take a lot of Crucios to whip them into shape.  They've 
got to be wondering whether they've backed the right horse.

This is triggering some thoughts about wands, but I'll post them 
separately.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
  The snake jerked its head toward Uncle Vernon
and Dudley, then raised its eyes to the ceiling.  
It gave Harry a look that said quite plainly:
  "*I get that all the time*."
                -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 19:34:21 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:34:21 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A.P.R.M.L.A.T.F.P.O.
References: <3AA133B3.9964C8C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <01bc01c0a41a$2ffeb320$b7e2fea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13467

SPOILER, hence typing BELOW my own signature, lol!
~~Dee~~
:)
______________________________________________
 ICQ me @ 21282374
For those who love Dark Shadows:
http://beta.groups.yahoo.com/group/DarkShadows
______________________________________________
I've figured it out.  That first scene is NOT Harry in the Stair-closet.
He's spying on Snape and his knee!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 12:10 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A.P.R.M.L.A.T.F.P.O.


> For all of you out there who have memorized the book, and are going
> crazy trying to place the now-infamous "Screaming Scene" from the
> trailer--I have a therapy program!
>
> Amanda's Pre-Release Movie Letdown Avoidance Therapy for Potter
> Obsessives
>
> 1. Become familiar with the following definitions:
>          a. "adapt" -- to make fit (as for a specific or new use) often
> by modification
>          b. "adaptation" -- something that is adapted: specif. a
> composition rewritten into a new form.
>
> Repeat these definitions aloud until you can say "modification" and
> "rewritten" without choking, coughing, gagging, passing out, or other
> generally negative reactions.
>
> 2. Go to the various HP sites, and follow links to various JKR,
> screenwriter, etc., interviews, and read again how they are encouraging
> her input, trying to remain true to her vision, etc.
>
> 3. Realize that JKR's vision is a broad one, not necessarily confined to
> the specific words in the book, no matter how we might have our favorite
> lines.
>
> 4. Watch the trailer again (or view the stills, for those of you like me
> who have computer imps who delight in confounding you), and soak up the
> atmosphere. Realize that in the face of most of our experience with
> movie adaptations, they seem to have accurately caught the "feel" of the
> world and the character of its inhabitants.
>
> 5. Remember that the special effects are being done by some of the
> finest effects people on the planet.
>
> 6. Remember that the cast is, unbelievably, talented enough to keep the
> focus on THEM and not on the special effects.
>
> Okay, are you calmed down now? Because without a doubt there will be
> major things that have been altered. I'm certain the screaming scene is
> either the troll or Fluffy, and we all know they're dressed wrong. So
> what? Some changes must be made for an adaptation to screen. Plot
> devices are compressed, some things are left out, etc. Because the goal
> is a film that can translate the STORY told in the book, not the book
> itself.
>
> I'm approaching the film as a version of a story I love, and I'm not too
> worried. I do understand that quality pieces (actors, effects, music,
> etc.) do not necessarily make a quality whole, but JKR's involvement,
> and now the trailer, seems to indicate that this is going to be really
> good.
>
> Hope I helped!
>
> --Dr. Amanda
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also
consult our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 19:14:59 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 19:14:59 -0000
Subject: Thoughts and questions on wands
Message-ID: <97rfrk+kpes@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13468

-Witches and wizards can identify their own wand very easily, so 
easily that it seems to be done by a sense other than sight:  Harry 
knows his immediately when Amos Diggory holds it up in GF.

-They can also easily match up another witch/wizard and her/his wand, 
or at least Lupin does in the Shrieking Shack (he throws Harry, Ron, 
and Hermione their wands, the right one to each).  Again, is this 
done by some kind of magical sense that connects a person to her/his 
wand?  Could anyone have done this with a moment's reflection, or is 
it because Lupin knows them?  Or is it simply that he's seen their 
wands in their hands many times, and the differences in size and color 
are obvious to wizards and witches, though they might be too subtle to 
your average Muggle?  (I think of a fascinating study I saw on TV, of 
Australian Aboriginal children whose ability to pick out which small 
rock or twig was missing from an assortment they had just seen for 60 
seconds was astounding to someone from my culture.)

-Every wand is unique and uniquely matched to the witch/wizard 
(therefore, Ron would've had a hard time owl-ordering one in CoS, even 
if he'd been willing to tell his parents he needed one), and although 
you can use someone else's wand, it won't work as well  (Ollivander, 
84 US ed. of SS, "Diagon Alley").  Is this going to figure into a plot 
at some point?  Someone uses someone else's wand and the results 
aren't powerful enough to do what she/he needs to do?

-They are apparently quite easy to break; Ron's snaps in the car 
accident and Hagrid's was broken when he was expelled.  The latter, 
being a deliberate attempt to deprive a wizard of his power (unlike 
the intent-less violence that snapped Ron's), *might* take powerful 
magic.  If not, it's pretty scary, since in a duel one could easily 
render one's opponent helpless by breaking his/her wand.  Scary, also, 
because we know that Harry's wand is one of the few weapons in the 
world that's effective against V, certainly the only thing known that 
can block his Avada Kedavra.  That's a mighty fragile thing to have 
standing between the well-being of the world and Voldemort.  Maybe 
Fawkes could be persuaded to donate a magical army's worth of 
feathers--hence the name, "The Order of the Phoenix"?

Off the point but sweet: my mom says the scene she most wants to see 
is Harry in Mr. Ollivander's.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------------
  "What's this?" he asked Aunt Petunia.  Her lips tightened
as they always did if he dared to ask a question.
  "Your new school uniform," she said.
  Harry looked in the bowl again.
  "Oh," he said, "I didn't realize it had to be so wet."
                           -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------------------




From rainesj at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  3 19:45:25 2001
From: rainesj at hotmail.com (Justin Raines)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 19:45:25 -0000
Subject: Screaming Scene (Trailer)  Waiting for November
In-Reply-To: <00cc01c0a3cc$9b2ac060$2714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <97rhkl+c60p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13469

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> 
>   From Justin Raines:
> 
>   I think this is probably the scene from Chapter 9 when Harry, Ron 
and 
>   Hermione are trying get to the room where Harry was supposed to 
duel 
>   with Draco.  When Mr. Filch get close to them, they run away and 
>   Hermione opens a locked door with a spell.  They turn around and 
find 
>   Fluffy, the three headed dog that is guarding the entrance to 
where 
>   the Stone is hidden.
> 
>   Although, from evidence cited earlier, I am reluctantly willing 
to give up my ghost theory, I have to disagree with your idea for the 
same reasons ... the scene in the movie was shot during the day. The 
Fluffy scene happened at night ... and there is the bath-robes 
problem too.
> 
>   I had toyed with the thought of waiting until the 17th or 18th to 
see the movie on a night that I am not scheduled to work. Then, after 
reading all of these trailer posts, I decided that there is no way 
that I could be the only one in the group who had not seen the movie 
yet. It would mean staying away from my computer for a day or two, 
which we won't even discuss here because the thought is just too ugly 
to contemplate.
>   Doreen 
> 

Those are good points Doreen.  I have to admit I didn't come up with 
this theory on my own.  I got it from pictures of a still I saw.  
Here is the site:  http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/mgallery19.htm
I just noticed they put a question mark by it.  Thanks for the reply, 
I always like to get feedback.  

Justin




From margdean at erols.com  Sat Mar  3 20:00:55 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:00:55 -0500
Subject: Filk
References: <97oh2b+lsnf@eGroups.com> <000001c0a3f5$0b7b0320$575dd63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3AA14D77.2595A76F@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13470

Carole Estes wrote:
> 
> By the way, what does filk stand for?  I write a
> lot of silly songs, but I didn't know there was a name for it.

Apparently it started life as a typo for "folk" on the program of
a science fiction convention, and went on from there to mean
"parody-type songs written to the tune of existing songs" up to
and including "fannish music in general."


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Sat Mar  3 19:48:39 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 14:48:39 -0500
Subject: Character Summary - Sirius (is sexy) Black
Message-ID: <014701c0a41a$f2516760$575dd63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13471

I've done this summary three time now...one with way too much detail, one
with way too little detail...then Randy's just made me laugh...OK I know
this is really late and it will probably run up against next weeks, but here
goes.

What to say about this delectable character.  I'll try to stay as close to
canon as possible and not stray into fanfic impressions (hmmm...this is
going to be difficult)

Sirius Black
AKA The Prisoner of Azkaban
AKA Padfoot
AKA Snuffles

Chronologically:

He attended Hogwarts and was best friends with James, Lily, and Remus.  We
think he must have been at Hogwarts sometime in the seventies.  While there
he was a trouble maker along with James but described as exceptionally
bright.  He proves this by becoming an unregistered Animagi in his 5th year
with James Potter and Peter Pettigrew in order to keep Remus company on the
full moon. He's a Marauder, and pulled a prank on Snape we still don't quite
know the
reason for or all the details of.  He and Snape despise each other.

He had a really cool motorcycle that he enchanted to fly. He was best man at
James and Lily's wedding.  He was described as handsome and full of laughter
in a wedding photo Harry has of his parents and Sirius.  He decided to
convince James and Lily to switch secret keepers for their Fidelius charm.
He saw the wreckage of their house and set out to find Peter.  They found
each other on a London street, Peter blew up the place and left him to not
only take the blame for that incident, but for James and Lily's betrayal and
death as well.

He's spent 12 years in Azkaban, but the dementors didn't drive him insane.

He's the only prisoner to have escaped from Azkaban without assistance (we
learn Crouch, Jr. was removed by his father).  And spends the better part of
his first year of freedom lurking about Hogwarts waiting for an opportunity
to seek revenge on Scabbers.  He nearly gets caught, gets away and goes
someplace tropical on Buckbeak.

He's Harry's godfather.  It seems to be a responsibility he takes very
seriously.  We see a lot of letters from him to Harry and he makes three
appearances in GoF.  He's looking and behaving better in GoF, although near
the end he's back to living in caves with a hippogriff and eating rats.

So who is he.  He's universally feared in the wizard community.  He seems to
care very deeply about and is loyal to his friends.  Despite being thought
to have gone to the dark side he is very much against the Dark Arts and
those that practice them.

A short personal interpretation based on canon:

Monika and I have spent reams of emails discussing Sirius' character and
picking up details about his behavior from the books.  We believe a lot of
the volatility he displays in PoA is not necessarily a character trait but
can be attributed to a latent and rather severe case of post-traumatic
stress disorder.  This is not to say that his behavior in some parts of PoA,
such as slashing the fat lady, and slashing Ron's bed hangings, should be
excused because of this. However, this perspective instead gives a different
light to his core personality, if volatility is not a trait he had before
the trauma.

Okay so now for the questions:

1. How did he survive with his brain intact in Azkaban all those years?

2. Do you think volatility is a character trait or a symptom?

3. Would he really make a good parent to Harry or would that relationship
falter if it was too close (so far Sirius has been there for advice but
hasn't had to play an authority figure to Harry yet)?

4.  Why do a large part of the HP fandom think he's sexy (besides the fact
that JKR said so...actually when asked if he was supposed to be dead sexy,
JKR said yes.)?  What is it about his personality that is or is not
attractive?

5. With apologies to Monika, who just wrote to me and asked this question
this morning and I thought it was so good I included it....don't you think
it's a bit weird that Dumbledore sends Sirius to alert everyone? What will
they think when the escaped murderer knocks at their door?








From ljl236 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 20:57:02 2001
From: ljl236 at yahoo.com (LJL)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:57:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: were they really screaming?
In-Reply-To: <983643400.1989.29898.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010303205702.6060.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13472

Just a thought -- next time you look at the scream scene -- is it possible
they were't screaming in terror? The more I looked at those facial
expressions, the less they looked like "Help, a Three-Headed Dog!" or
"It's a Troll!" and more like a shriek that could have had its source in
something much more benign, like (and I'm making this up) "Gryffindor won
the Cup!"
  Now I'm going back to the book to see if I can find a scene that
supports my theory...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar  3 21:31:26 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 15:31:26 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scream
References: <97rdgm+lqmi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c0a429$5114b5a0$2e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13473



  Katie wrote of the scream:

  >It looks cartoonish, not realistic.  

  Doreen writes:

  I am already tired of re re re reading to find something that fits. Heck .. maybe they are just singing the school song really really really enthusiastically.  (sort of like the Mouseketeers did the Mickey Mouse song ... hmmm HAR RYP OTTER ... OMG it fits .. No, it doesnt take much to amuse me these days.)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar  3 21:44:02 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 15:44:02 -0600
Subject: JKR's play on words, other than the spells/charms
Message-ID: <003b01c0a42b$112a2ea0$2e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13474

I just love JKR's play on words. The ones in the spells/charms are more obvious. I was thinking more along the lines of "Slytherin" which immediately makes one think of a snake that slithers in. I also noticed this in "Gringotts" "gold ingots". I know there are more. Has this been discussed before? If not, are there any other words like this that others have noticed?

Something to think about besides the scream, she said distractedly.
Doreen

"Shan't say nothing if you don't say, please," said Peeves in his annoying singsong voice. 
"All right --- please."
"NOTHING! Ha ha! Haaaaaa!"
Peeves the Poltergeist, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From shades_of_black at mail.com  Sat Mar  3 22:01:14 2001
From: shades_of_black at mail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 17:01:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Screaming Scene (Trailer)
Message-ID: <387079606.983656874393.JavaMail.root@web569-mc>

No: HPFGUIDX 13475

<I think this is probably the scene from Chapter 9 when Harry, Ron and
Hermione are trying get to the room where Harry was supposed to duel
with Draco.  When Mr. Filch get close to them, they run away and
Hermione opens a locked door with a spell.  They turn around and find
Fluffy, the three headed dog that is guarding the entrance to where
the Stone is hidden.>

Aside from the fact that Neville isn't around, the scene where they run
through the class room is during the day, as I said before. The light cast
on the far wall is white, making it appear to be natural light (candel light
looks quite yellow).


MC


______________________________________________
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From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Mar  3 22:04:33 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:04:33 -0000
Subject: Character Summary - Sirius (is sexy) Black
In-Reply-To: <014701c0a41a$f2516760$575dd63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97rpph+aavn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13476

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> I've done this summary three time now...one with way too much 
detail, one
> with way too little detail...then Randy's just made me laugh...OK I 
know
> this is really late and it will probably run up against next weeks, 
but here
> goes.
> 
> What to say about this delectable character.  I'll try to stay as 
close to
> canon as possible and not stray into fanfic impressions (hmmm...this 
is
> going to be difficult)
> 
> Sirius Black
> AKA The Prisoner of Azkaban
> AKA Padfoot
> AKA Snuffles
> 
> Chronologically:
> 
> He attended Hogwarts and was best friends with James, Lily, and 
Remus.  We
> think he must have been at Hogwarts sometime in the seventies.  
While there
> he was a trouble maker along with James but described as 
exceptionally
> bright.  He proves this by becoming an unregistered Animagi in his 
5th year
> with James Potter and Peter Pettigrew in order to keep Remus company 
on the
> full moon. He's a Marauder, and pulled a prank on Snape we still 
don't quite
> know the
> reason for or all the details of.  He and Snape despise each other.
> 
> He had a really cool motorcycle that he enchanted to fly. He was 
best man at
> James and Lily's wedding.  He was described as handsome and full of 
laughter
> in a wedding photo Harry has of his parents and Sirius.  He decided 
to
> convince James and Lily to switch secret keepers for their Fidelius 
charm.
> He saw the wreckage of their house and set out to find Peter.  They 
found
> each other on a London street, Peter blew up the place and left him 
to not
> only take the blame for that incident, but for James and Lily's 
betrayal and
> death as well.
> 
> He's spent 12 years in Azkaban, but the dementors didn't drive him 
insane.
> 
> He's the only prisoner to have escaped from Azkaban without 
assistance (we
> learn Crouch, Jr. was removed by his father).  And spends the better 
part of
> his first year of freedom lurking about Hogwarts waiting for an 
opportunity
> to seek revenge on Scabbers.  He nearly gets caught, gets away and 
goes
> someplace tropical on Buckbeak.
> 
> He's Harry's godfather.  It seems to be a responsibility he takes 
very
> seriously.  We see a lot of letters from him to Harry and he makes 
three
> appearances in GoF.  He's looking and behaving better in GoF, 
although near
> the end he's back to living in caves with a hippogriff and eating 
rats.
> 
> So who is he.  He's universally feared in the wizard community.  He 
seems to
> care very deeply about and is loyal to his friends.  Despite being 
thought
> to have gone to the dark side he is very much against the Dark Arts 
and
> those that practice them.
> 
> A short personal interpretation based on canon:
> 
> Monika and I have spent reams of emails discussing Sirius' character 
and
> picking up details about his behavior from the books.  We believe a 
lot of
> the volatility he displays in PoA is not necessarily a character 
trait but
> can be attributed to a latent and rather severe case of 
post-traumatic
> stress disorder.  This is not to say that his behavior in some parts 
of PoA,
> such as slashing the fat lady, and slashing Ron's bed hangings, 
should be
> excused because of this. However, this perspective instead gives a 
different
> light to his core personality, if volatility is not a trait he had 
before
> the trauma.
> 
> Okay so now for the questions:
> 
> 1. How did he survive with his brain intact in Azkaban all those 
years?
> 
> 2. Do you think volatility is a character trait or a symptom?
> 
> 3. Would he really make a good parent to Harry or would that 
relationship
> falter if it was too close (so far Sirius has been there for advice 
but
> hasn't had to play an authority figure to Harry yet)?
> 
> 4.  Why do a large part of the HP fandom think he's sexy (besides 
the fact
> that JKR said so...actually when asked if he was supposed to be dead 
sexy,
> JKR said yes.)?  What is it about his personality that is or is not
> attractive?
> 
> 5. With apologies to Monika, who just wrote to me and asked this 
question
> this morning and I thought it was so good I included it....don't you 
think
> it's a bit weird that Dumbledore sends Sirius to alert everyone? 
What will
> they think when the escaped murderer knocks at their door?

Hi!

I really liked your analysis of Sirius Black (of course, I always like 
analysis, as I am a high school teacher!).  I'm kind of thinking and 
writing at the same time here, so bear with me while I struggle 
through my response.

How did Sirius survive Azkaban with his brain intact?  He actually 
explained it to Harry in PoA: he knew he was innocent, which wasn't a 
happy thought, so the dementors couldn't suck it out of him.  I 
understand that, too; when you just know you are right and someone 
else is wrong and you're waiting for light to be shed.  He probably 
focused all of his energy on remembering his innocence and planning 
his escape (though how a skinny dog swam across the North Sea is 
beyond me).

I never really thought of Sirius' appeal, but I certainly understand 
that, too.  He's the rebel type who fights for what's right and stands 
up to those in power (the dementors, saying Voldemort's name unafraid, 
etc).  He has that "misunderstood" quality about him that just makes 
you want to help him, you know?  I also picture him a bit dark and 
brooding - and I personally like those dark and brooding types (my 
sweetie is a dark haired man and quite sexy, if I do say so myself!).  
If he was your man, you know he'd do anything in his power to protect 
you.  The fact that he does have a paternalistic side to him is also 
very nice, as he is so concerned with Harry's safety and general well 
being - he's not all hardened and cold.  All in all, he's a good man.

I think that Dumbledore sent Sirius out because I suppose (?) that 
those who were close to Sirius when he was younger will still believe 
in and trust him... but I also think he'll first go to Lupin (who I 
adore) and they'll figure out together how to approach "the old 
crowd".

Sirius has also a kind of reckless freedom that we don't have, because 
in many ways he's invisible to the public.  He can roam the 
countryside as a dog and has no job, no permanent residence, no bills 
to pay... he's all about fighting and exposing the bad and supporting 
the good.  I like that!  I LOVE that Harry now has someone like Sirius 
in his life, too because he's been so downtrodden.  Sirius boosts him 
up and no one deserves that more than Harry.

Sorry for rambling - I could talk




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Mar  3 22:08:06 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:08:06 -0000
Subject: were they really screaming?
In-Reply-To: <20010303205702.6060.qmail@web9104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <97rq06+ab4o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13477

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., LJL <ljl236 at y...> wrote:
> Just a thought -- next time you look at the scream scene -- is it 
possible
> they were't screaming in terror? The more I looked at those facial
> expressions, the less they looked like "Help, a Three-Headed Dog!" 
or
> "It's a Troll!" and more like a shriek that could have had its 
source in
> something much more benign, like (and I'm making this up) 
"Gryffindor won
> the Cup!"
>   Now I'm going back to the book to see if I can find a scene that
> supports my theory...
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Hi!

Maybe they were screaming for Ron to win his life sized chess game 
when they were trying to get through the staff's traps to get to the 
Sorcerer's Stone?  Because Ron should be in that shot, too, but he's 
not, if I remember correctly.






From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 22:17:26 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:17:26 -0000
Subject: were they really screaming?
In-Reply-To: <97rq06+ab4o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97rqhm+a9ks@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13478


> Hi!
> 
> Maybe they were screaming for Ron to win his life sized chess game 
> when they were trying to get through the staff's traps to get to the 
> Sorcerer's Stone?  Because Ron should be in that shot, too, but he's 
> not, if I remember correctly.

Ahh... but Ron *is* there.  However, you've made me think of another 
possibility.  What if this is when they first enter the flying keys 
room?  I mean, it's supposed to be the trio, it says in the book that 
they all covered themselves believing the keys to be birds that would 
swarm them... I don't know.  In truth, I think it's the fluffy scene 
without Neville, but I'm just racking my brains to find SOMETHING 
else it could be.  

Jen (who is going to have to get the baby up now... and the phone...)





From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sat Mar  3 22:21:48 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:21:48 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Screaming Scene (Trailer)
In-Reply-To: <387079606.983656874393.JavaMail.root@web569-mc>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEMKDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13480

MC: "Aside from the fact that Neville isn't around, the scene where they
run through the class room is during the day, as I said before. The light
cast on the far wall is white, making it appear to be natural light (candel
light looks quite yellow)."

This scene is split into two parts. One where they are standing still, they
scream and then start to turn. The second part has them running through a
classroom. There is no reason that these two parts have to follow on from
each other. They may be totally separate in the film, but put together in
the trailer, because they fit quite well.

In the trailer the classroom they are running through is the one in the
picture:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Movie%20Settings/classroo
mDurham.jpg
It is interesting to note that they are running towards the teacher's desk
where there seem to be no doors to get out of the room! Am I meant to point
such matters out? Or does that make me sound to obsessive? If so, ignore
the comment about doors.

Also in this shot Hermione is carrying a bag. If she were carrying the same
bag in the scream scene (when I write that I start to think of the horror
movie!) then in all probability we would be able to see it, or her
accidentally hitting Ron with it as she turned. But there is no evidence
that she is carrying it in that shot.

So the problems of finding one bit in the book for this could be that it is
in fact two very different scenes.

The running could be them leaving a class, or exams. Why no other students
I do not know, but maybe they were kept late!



Simon (the only possible signature in this occasion)
--
65% Obsessed with Harry Potter. How obsessed are you?
Take The Harry Potter Obsession quiz at: http://www.fuuko.com/hpquiz.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar  3 22:24:47 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 16:24:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: were they really screaming?
References: <97rq06+ab4o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005901c0a430$c34a8440$2e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13481



Maybe they were screaming for Ron to win his life sized chess game 
when they were trying to get through the staff's traps to get to the 
Sorcerer's Stone?  Because Ron should be in that shot, too, but he's 
not, if I remember correctly.

Sorry, Ron, Harry, and Hermione are all in the scream shot.
Doreen




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From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar  3 22:29:39 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:29:39 -0000
Subject: JKR's play on words, other than the spells/charms
In-Reply-To: <003b01c0a42b$112a2ea0$2e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <97rr8j+nqpa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13482

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> I just love JKR's play on words. The ones in the spells/charms are
> more obvious. (snip)I also noticed this in "Gringotts" "gold
> ingots". I know there are more. Has this been discussed before?

Yes, the words are one of the things that people love about HP. 
Someone said that GRINGOTTS is STTORINGG (it also contains I GOT, 
altho' I don't think she intended GRINGO). PENSIEVE is pensive 
(thoughtful) plus seive (colander), and I think it was Flying Ford 
Anglia who said it's IN PEEVES and suggested that this is a hint that 
Peeves is Dumbledore's dissociated id. REMEMBRALL is Remember All
plus Remember Ball.

I mostly pay attention to the names. Remus Lupin is a werewolf. 
'Lupin' comes from the Latin word 'lupus' which means 'wolf' and 
became English adjective 'lupine'. Remus and his brother Romulus 
(the founders of Rome) were abandoned at birth by their mother and 
adopted by a wolf bitch. Sirius is the Dog Star and Sirius Black 
turns into a big black dog. I noticed the 'black' but had been 
thinking that 'sirius' referred to something celestial rather than 
something canine. The name of the star Sirius is Greek for 'scorcher' 
and Sirius is Really Hot. Someone pointed out that Peter Pettigrew's 
names both mean 'to become smaller'. Peter as in 'peter out' and 
petti-grew as in 'to grow petty'. 

List member ellimist created a web site with dictionaries of HP 
character names, but I don't seem able to find that site just now.





From wings909 at aol.com  Sat Mar  3 22:32:17 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 17:32:17 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's play on words, other than the spells/charms
Message-ID: <48.123bf6f4.27d2caf1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13483

In a message dated 03/03/2001 4:43:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
nera at rconnect.com writes:

<< I just love JKR's play on words. The ones in the spells/charms are more 
obvious. I was thinking more along the lines of "Slytherin" which immediately 
makes one think of a snake that slithers in. I also noticed this in 
"Gringotts" "gold ingots". I know there are more. Has this been discussed 
before? If not, are there any other words like this that others have noticed?
  >>

Such as Remus Lupin...Remus-the name of the twin of Romulus (founder of Rome) 
who where both raised by a wolf.  Lupin- from the latin word Lupus- meaning 
wolf.  Lupine-wolfish.

Sirius Black- (this is pretty much what I think it means) Sirius-the 
brightest star in the sky (aka the DOG star)  note the word DOG?  Black- I'm 
thinking that this would be in reference to Azkaban, but I'm sure there just 
might be a hidden meaning JKR will get to.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From eccleston at clara.co.uk  Sat Mar  3 22:38:23 2001
From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:38:23 -0000
Subject: A.P.R.M.L.A.T.F.P.O.
In-Reply-To: <3AA133B3.9964C8C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <97rrov+taij@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13484

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> For all of you out there who have memorized the book, and are going
> crazy trying to place the now-infamous "Screaming Scene" from the
> trailer--I have a therapy program!
> 
> Amanda's Pre-Release Movie Letdown Avoidance Therapy for Potter
> Obsessives
> 
> 1. Become familiar with the following definitions:
>          a. "adapt" -- to make fit (as for a specific or new use) 
often
> by modification
>          b. "adaptation" -- something that is adapted: specif. a
> composition rewritten into a new form.
> 
> Repeat these definitions aloud until you can say "modification" and
> "rewritten" without choking, coughing, gagging, passing out, or 
other
> generally negative reactions.
> 
> 2. Go to the various HP sites, and follow links to various JKR,
> screenwriter, etc., interviews, and read again how they are 
encouraging
> her input, trying to remain true to her vision, etc.
> 
> 3. Realize that JKR's vision is a broad one, not necessarily 
confined to
> the specific words in the book, no matter how we might have our 
favorite
> lines.
> 
> 4. Watch the trailer again (or view the stills, for those of you 
like me
> who have computer imps who delight in confounding you), and soak up 
the
> atmosphere. Realize that in the face of most of our experience with
> movie adaptations, they seem to have accurately caught the "feel" 
of the
> world and the character of its inhabitants.
> 
> 5. Remember that the special effects are being done by some of the
> finest effects people on the planet.
> 
> 6. Remember that the cast is, unbelievably, talented enough to keep 
the
> focus on THEM and not on the special effects.
> 
> Okay, are you calmed down now? Because without a doubt there will be
> major things that have been altered. I'm certain the screaming 
scene is
> either the troll or Fluffy, and we all know they're dressed wrong. 
So
> what? Some changes must be made for an adaptation to screen. Plot
> devices are compressed, some things are left out, etc. Because the 
goal
> is a film that can translate the STORY told in the book, not the 
book
> itself.
> 
> I'm approaching the film as a version of a story I love, and I'm 
not too
> worried. I do understand that quality pieces (actors, effects, 
music,
> etc.) do not necessarily make a quality whole, but JKR's 
involvement,
> and now the trailer, seems to indicate that this is going to be 
really
> good.
> 
> Hope I helped!
> 
> --Dr. Amanda

Hear hear. The film won't be exactly like the book, but then how 
could it? It's only a film, and the books are only books. We need to 
enjoy them for what they are.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar  3 22:46:23 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:46:23 -0000
Subject: Character Summary - Sirius (is sexy) Black
In-Reply-To: <97rpph+aavn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97rs7v+3pvv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13485

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> > .....don't you think it's a bit weird that Dumbledore sends
> > Sirius to alert everyone? What will they think when the escaped
> >  murderer knocks at their door?
> I think that Dumbledore sent Sirius out because I suppose (?) that
> those who were close to Sirius when he was younger will still
> believe in and trust him... 

Urm, Lily mumu 2001, Remus, who was the closest to Sirius, had spent 
12 years believing him to be guilty, as did the wise Dumbledore. I 
don't expect the rest of the old gang to be any more perceptive.

Urm, Carole, when Dumbledore sent Sirius to alert the old gang, it 
was one year after Dumbledore had learned of Sirius's innocence. I 
expect that one year is enough time for Dumbledore to have spread the 
word of Sirius's innocence and Peter's guilt, either to the selected 
few who would trust his word more than Fudge's, or to everyone and 
damn the consequence of being thought loony by most Daily Prophet 
readers.






From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat Mar  3 22:55:53 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:55:53 -0000
Subject: Filk
In-Reply-To: <3AA14D77.2595A76F@erols.com>
Message-ID: <97rspp+5p4o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13486

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> Carole Estes wrote:
> > 
> > By the way, what does filk stand for?  I write a
> > lot of silly songs, but I didn't know there was a name for it.
> 
> Apparently it started life as a typo for "folk" on the program of
> a science fiction convention, and went on from there to mean
> "parody-type songs written to the tune of existing songs" up to
> and including "fannish music in general."
> 
> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   <margdean at e...>

In Sing Out! magazine, they call it the Folk Process.  BTW, Randy, 
*loved* your songs.  True genius!  (all I do is come up with words & 
music--it takes talent to take an existing piece of music & write 
words that fit--my hat's off to you!)

Peace & Plenty,

Parker
----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...' Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From wings909 at aol.com  Sat Mar  3 22:57:35 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 17:57:35 EST
Subject: More Double Meaning Names
Message-ID: <67.107a96f6.27d2d0df@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13487

Love the double meaning of names, and here are a couple more:

Minerva- the Roman goddess of Wisdom.

Sibyll- from the word "Sybil" meaning a female prophet.  

I even looked up Harry to see if there was a meaning:  Harry- (verb 
transitive) *harried, harrying* - to torment by or as if by constant attack, 
to make a pillaging  or destructive raid on.  

You could see how that could be twisted into his name....Harry has been 
tormented, and under attack, hasn't he?

Severus- although this was not in the dictionary- does have the word Severe 
(-e) in it...Snape is a bit of a *severe* teacher, is he not?

Voldemort has the word mort- from the french word for "death".  

Lily- (adj) meaning fairness, purity, or fragileness.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Mar  4 00:07:25 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 00:07:25 -0000
Subject: were they really screaming?
In-Reply-To: <005901c0a430$c34a8440$2e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <97s0vt+29b4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13488

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Maybe they were screaming for Ron to win his life sized chess game 
> when they were trying to get through the staff's traps to get to the 
> Sorcerer's Stone?  Because Ron should be in that shot, too, but he's 
> not, if I remember correctly.
> 
> Sorry, Ron, Harry, and Hermione are all in the scream shot.
> Doreen
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>             
>                The Perfect StormThe PatriotU571Erin BrockovichMore 
Movies...



Oops!
I feel so stupid (or maybe just left out). The only trailer shot I've 
seen of screaming is with Hermione and Harry only (I double checked).  
Not fair!
--Jenny  
>      
>      
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, 
see our
> website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also 
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> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at y...
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been re




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Mar  4 00:13:27 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 00:13:27 -0000
Subject: A.P.R.M.L.A.T.F.P.O.
In-Reply-To: <97rrov+taij@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97s1b7+s5j0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13489

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eccleston at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > For all of you out there who have memorized the book, and are 
going
> > crazy trying to place the now-infamous "Screaming Scene" from the
> > trailer--I have a therapy program!
> > 
> > Amanda's Pre-Release Movie Letdown Avoidance Therapy for Potter
> > Obsessives
> > 

I think we'll really all benefit from your therapy sessions when the 
movie comes out.  It's just too hard now to accept that the movie is 
being made without MY imagination's images of everything... and when 
the movie comes out, I may really need some help.  
But I'll be buying my tickets extra early anyway.
--Je




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar  4 00:28:45 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 4 Mar 2001 00:28:45 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <983665725.5916.22046.k5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13490


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Fan Fiction/Dadgrid/The Letter Part two final.htm 
  Uploaded by : jferer at yahoo.com 
  Description : "The Letter," Part Two 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan%20Fiction/Dadgrid/The%20Letter%20Part%20two%20final.htm 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

jferer at yahoo.com
 







From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 01:04:17 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 01:04:17 -0000
Subject: Rowling story at MSN.com
In-Reply-To: <983665725.5916.22046.k5@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <97s4ah+he94@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13491


While it's probable that many of you've seen this (or a version of 
it), here's a nice like to a story. Inside of this link, there's 
another - for "The Guilty Pleasure of Harry Potter"

http://www.msnbc.com/news/538550.asp


Heather M.




From kris403 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 01:28:20 2001
From: kris403 at yahoo.com (kris403 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 01:28:20 -0000
Subject: therapy
Message-ID: <97s5nk+cg39@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13492

Amanda... Wonderful suggestions for therapy.  I know that there might be in depth discussion here, but I hope everyone completely enjoys the film.  It may not be completely perfect in book standards, but just think of how lucky we are to be getting it at all.  I hope everyone doesn't walk out of the theater angry because one line wasn't quoted exactly right.  I'm sure we will all see the differences, but I know I will love it anyway..

About the last line.."Harry, you're the boy who lived."  On the version of the trailer I downloaded you only see Hagrid say "Harry, your're" and then for "the boy who lived" it switches over to Harry's astonished face.  That leads me to believe that the exact quote will not be used in the movie, but that it's the slogan they are going with and made sure it had some impact in the trailer.

My two cents worth.





From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Sun Mar  4 01:46:14 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:46:14 -0400
Subject: Character Summary - Sirius (is sexy) Black
Message-ID: <3AA19E65.F8DF14B1@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 13493

Thank you Carole, for such a well-done summary of such a seriously sexy
man.

>1. How did he survive with his brain intact in Azkaban all those years?

Like he said, knowing he was innocent.

>2. Do you think volatility is a character trait or a symptom?

I'm going to say trait - Sirius strikes me as a doer, not a thinker (but
he can think! Don't flame!)

But I also think that the volatile Sirius we see in PoA is fuelled by
PTSD. He's spent twelve years simmering in Azkaban with grief at James &
Lily's deaths, and rage at Peter's betrayal.

Once he finds people who believe his innocence, and assumes his role as
Harry's godfather, Sirius begins the healing process. He's not so
volatile in GoF - he gets the most upset listening to Harry's recounting
of what happened in the graveyard, and his reactions stem from his
desire to protect Harry and his anger at what pain Harry suffered in the
graveyard. Who wouldn't get upset listening to what Harry endured? I got
upset reading it!

>3. Would he really make a good parent to Harry or would that relationship
>falter if it was too close (so far Sirius has been there for advice but
>hasn't had to play an authority figure to Harry yet)?

I think he would make a good parent. He makes Harry promise to be
careful, and Harry responds to that, albeit reluctantly. Harry didn't
have any positive role models growing up (with the possible exception of
Mrs Figg, I'm eager to learn what role she has been filling) and over
the course of the four books, Harry has been slowly learning to trust
adults.

He came back to Hogsmeade specifically so he could be close to Harry, at
the risk of his being captured. He knew Harry was in grave danger, and
he stayed as close as he could. I think Sirius has all the good
instincts of a loving but firm parent, even if he lacks the experience.

>4.  Why do a large part of the HP fandom think he's sexy (besides the fact
>that JKR said so...actually when asked if he was supposed to be dead sexy,
>JKR said yes.)?  What is it about his personality that is or is not
>attractive?

I fell in love with Sirius when he asked Harry if he'd like to live with
him. I fell deeper after his joy that Harry responded so positively. To
see Sirius care so much about Harry's welfare, after all the crap the
Dursleys have put him through, and to be so shy and hesitant about
asking Harry if he'd like to live with him ... mreow.

And yeah, there's the motorcycle riding bad boy theory. ;-)

>5. With apologies to Monika, who just wrote to me and asked this question
>this morning and I thought it was so good I included it....don't you think
>it's a bit weird that Dumbledore sends Sirius to alert everyone? What will
>they think when the escaped murderer knocks at their door?

As Rita pointed out, a year has gone by, time enough for word to spread
to the old gang that Sirius is innocent. It could be that members of the
old gang helped Sirius and Buckbeak escape to their tropical
destination.

Or maybe he and Lupin will bring a bottle of Veritaserum along to help
prove his innocence. ;-)

Angela
-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
    "There is in the worst of fortune the best of chances 
        for a happy change."    Euripedes



From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 02:35:23 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 18:35:23 -0800
Subject: Sirius
Message-ID: <F251z6Np3XdflFMYcsQ0000192f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13494


Here's my opinions on the following points. Yada, yada, yada....

 >1. How did he survive with his brain intact in Azkaban all those years?

I believe that most prisoners of Azkaban are actually guilty of horrific 
crimes, and don't have much to look back on with happiness in the first 
place. I think that the Azkaban theory is that the guilt of said crimes is 
what haunts the people to the point of insanity. Sirius was innocent, and he 
lead a very happy, contented life (as far as we know). He had good friends, 
etc., so he probably had enough joy in him that he was able to withstand the 
Dementors. If you will remember, Hagrid was in Azkaban for a certain amount 
of time. Yes, he said it was horrible, yes, he said all he could think of 
were bad memories, but Hagrid is quite possibly the most innocent character 
in the entire book series, and I think that's what kept him sane.

 >2. Do you think volatility is a character trait or a symptom?

This is very hard to say. We don't really know enough figure this out. I 
would say that it's really just a symptom of a traumatizing *twelve years* 
in a black pit of Doom, knowing that your very best friends were dead, 
knowing that everyone thought that you had killed them, and knowing that 
their killer had happily sashayed into the sunset with the Dark Lord, 
receiving no punishment what-so-ever. But that's just my opinion.


 >3. Would he really make a good parent to Harry or would that relationship
 >falter if it was too close (so far Sirius has been there for advice but
 >hasn't had to play an authority figure to Harry yet)?

Sirius Black strikes me as a very good man, but a very irresponsible one. 
*dodges tomatoes* Face it. He was a Marauder. I don't think that James could 
have succeeded at single parenting. If Sirius adopted Harry, I would hope he 
would have found a wife *coughCordeliacough* to balance things out. In the 
cannon situation we have, I think that he would be infinitely better than 
the Dursleys. In short: Sirius is great, but I doubt fatherhood would sit 
well with him.


 >4.  Why do a large part of the HP fandom think he's sexy (besides the fact
 >that JKR said so...actually when asked if he was supposed to be dead sexy,
 >JKR said yes.)?  What is it about his personality that is or is not
 >attractive?

Sirius is a good bad guy. Seriously. I think that women, in general, tend to 
go for rugged "bad guy" types (okay, all Alan Rickman fans raise their 
hands....now all Snape fans....Draco? Point made). Sirius packs the tough 
image (Motorcycle, eating rats....) with the good guy bonuses (er, he isn't 
evil. That's a big plus!). I like him because he seems so fun. If a guy owns 
a flying Harley, he's got to be a *lot* of fun to be around, no? And am I 
the only one who wonders why the collective fanfic populous hasn't given 
*Draco* the obligatory flying motorbike?

 >5. With apologies to Monika, who just wrote to me and asked this question
 >this morning and I thought it was so good I included it....don't you think
 >it's a bit weird that Dumbledore sends Sirius to alert everyone? What will
 >they think when the escaped murderer knocks at their door?

I think that at this point, there are so very few people that Dumbledore can 
trust, he goes ahead and uses Sirius. I'm not sure I agree with the idea 
that the Old Guard would suddenly trust him, since I doubt they know 
everyone trusts him (if the news that Dumbledore trusted *Sirius Black* 
leaked, all hell would break loose), but there is the possibility that a 
situation born out of sheer desperation would merit the measure of using 
him. Is it just me, or does it seem that you would be interested in hearing 
the other side of the story if someone you grew up with as a friend was 
suddenly thrown in jail? The scene in PoA where Harry finds out Lupin knew 
Sirius, Lupin says something like "Yes, I knew him. Or I thought I did," 
this always struck me as him not believing that Sirius was guilty. At this 
point in my reading of PoA I began to suspect that there was (a lot) more to 
the story of Sirius. In fact, I was rather certain that Lupin *was* Sirius. 
So I never developed the hatred that I believe many fans had to overcome.

*wanders away*




==============
Morsus Crustum

Pen Name: Blythe Spirit, formerly Dervish
Obsession: 119%
Ship: Draco/Harry.
Favorite Book: Chamber Of Secrets
Favorite Character: Lucius Malfoy
HP Actor That's Unnervingly Adorible: Daniel Radcliffe

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From margdean at erols.com  Sun Mar  4 03:12:02 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:12:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's play on words, other than the spells/charms
References: <48.123bf6f4.27d2caf1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AA1B282.80FE3598@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13495

wings909 at aol.com wrote:
 
> Sirius Black- (this is pretty much what I think it means) Sirius-the
> brightest star in the sky (aka the DOG star)  note the word DOG?  Black- I'm
> thinking that this would be in reference to Azkaban, but I'm sure there just
> might be a hidden meaning JKR will get to.

Try this on for size:

=Albus= Dumbledore
=Rubeus= Hagrid
Sirius =Black=

Arguably the three adults closest to Harry at this point.

There are three "stages" in the alchemical process (and we =know=
JKR has researched alchemy to a degree -- Nicolas Flamel was a
real person, and of course the Philosopher's Stone is the stated
goal of alchemy) called the albedo (white), rubedo (red) and
nigredo (black).

=Can= this be coincidental?  Somehow I doubt it.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From margdean at erols.com  Sun Mar  4 03:14:04 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:14:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Double Meaning Names
References: <67.107a96f6.27d2d0df@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AA1B2FC.F9C55B8A@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13496

wings909 at aol.com wrote:

> Lily- (adj) meaning fairness, purity, or fragileness.

And note that her sister, Petunia, also has a flower name.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From wings909 at aol.com  Sun Mar  4 03:00:47 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:00:47 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's play on words, other than the spells/charms
Message-ID: <11.108e05ec.27d309df@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13497

In a message dated 03/03/2001 9:58:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
margdean at erols.com writes:

<< rguably the three adults closest to Harry at this point.
 
 There are three "stages" in the alchemical process (and we =know=
 JKR has researched alchemy to a degree -- Nicolas Flamel was a
 real person, and of course the Philosopher's Stone is the stated
 goal of alchemy) called the albedo (white), rubedo (red) and
 nigredo (black).
 
 =Can= this be coincidental?  Somehow I doubt it.
  >>

AH HA!  I *knew* there was something to Dumbledore's and Hagrid's names, I 
just couldn't put my finger on it!  Thanks for the infor!

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar  4 03:01:45 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:01:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius
References: <F251z6Np3XdflFMYcsQ0000192f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AA1B019.404DC1B5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13498

Morsus Crustum wrote:

> Sirius is a good bad guy. Seriously. I think that women, in general,
> tend to go for rugged "bad guy" types (okay, all Alan Rickman fans
> raise their hands....now all Snape fans....Draco? Point made). Sirius
> packs the tough
> image (Motorcycle, eating rats....) with the good guy bonuses (er, he
> isn't evil. That's a big plus!). I like him because he seems so fun.
> If a guy owns a flying Harley, he's got to be a *lot* of fun to be
> around, no?

I just had an interesting thought. I, for one, never really found Sirius
that attractive, but your "bad boy" theory got me thinking. At the
moment, and for the past five or so years, I have been a wife and
companion but mostly a mother. Frankly, when your kids are as young as
mine (5, 4, 1) you don't focus on much else. You hope you have a patient
husband. Or you throw the kids at him until he's so tired all *he* wants
to do is sleep, too.

My point is, maybe I'm not attracted to Sirius at this point in time
because I *don't* think he'd be a good parent, and that's my modus
operandi at the moment. Other moms of small children on the list? Do I
just have no life, or do you think this holds any water? Ordinarily he's
just my type. I raised my hand for Alan Rickman, after all....

--Amanda, pondering


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 03:07:39 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 19:07:39 -0800
Subject: JKR's play on words, other than the spells/charms
Message-ID: <F57ZCHusMjQHtMFauky00016996@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13499



<< arguably the three adults closest to Harry at this point.

  There are three "stages" in the alchemical process (and we =know=
  JKR has researched alchemy to a degree -- Nicolas Flamel was a
  real person, and of course the Philosopher's Stone is the stated
  goal of alchemy) called the albedo (white), rubedo (red) and
  nigredo (black).

  =Can= this be coincidental?  Somehow I doubt it.
   >>

And then there's my therory....you all read *way* too much into half of this 
stuff. It's rather like the notion (that some people swear by) that 
"Hermione" has something to do with "Hermy" from Rudolph the Red Nosed 
Reindeer...because he wanted to be a dentist, and Hermione's parents are. 
Can we say "out on a limb"? I think we can!

*slinks away*

==============
Morsus Crustum

Pen Name: Blythe Spirit
Obsession: 119%
Ship: Draco/Harry. Opposites attract, baby.
Favorite Book (yet): Chamber Of Secrets
Favorite Character: Lucius Malfoy
HP Actor That's Unnervingly Adorible: Daniel Radcliffe

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar  4 03:05:22 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:05:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary - Sirius (is sexy) Black
References: <97rs7v+3pvv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA1B0F1.AE4F377A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13500

Rita Winston wrote:

> Urm, Carole, when Dumbledore sent Sirius to alert the old gang, it was
> one year after Dumbledore had learned of Sirius's innocence. I expect
> that one year is enough time for Dumbledore to have spread the word of
> Sirius's innocence and Peter's guilt, either to the selected few who
> would trust his word more than Fudge's, or to everyone and
> damn the consequence of being thought loony by most Daily Prophet
> readers.

I suspect this is the case. I had brought up some months ago that as of
the end of PoA, Snape was still operating under the honest belief that
Sirius was not only an old loathed enemy, but a dangerous murderer and
follower of Voldemort. However, when Dumbledore has Sirius reveal
himself to Snape at the end of GoF, Snape's reaction is only one of
loathing. He reacts to the old enemy, but not to an escaped, murdering
DeathEater. So clearly Snape has been clued in "offscreen" by
Dumbledore, and I'd imagine by extension that others of Dumbledore's
close circle have been similarly clued in.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar  4 03:07:12 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:07:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Filk
References: <97rspp+5p4o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA1B160.98F6F9D4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13501

pbnesbit at msn.com wrote:

> > Carole Estes wrote:
> > >
> > > By the way, what does filk stand for?  I write a
> > > lot of silly songs, but I didn't know there was a name for it.
> >
> > Apparently it started life as a typo for "folk" on the program of >
> a science fiction convention, and went on from there to mean >
> "parody-type songs written to the tune of existing songs" up to > and
> including "fannish music in general."

I always thought it was a play on both "folk" and "filch," because the
tunes are generally filched from other sources.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar  4 03:17:58 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:17:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's play on words, other than the spells/charms
References: <48.123bf6f4.27d2caf1@aol.com> <3AA1B282.80FE3598@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3AA1B3E6.8E70E069@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13502

Margaret Dean wrote:

> Black- I'm thinking that this would be in reference to Azkaban, but
> I'm sure there just might be a hidden meaning JKR will get to.

Well, I for one figured that he had to be a black dog, or else Harry
could not mistake him for the Grim, and that was a plot device, so she
needed him to be black. Legends of black dogs portending death do not
originate with JKR. And since he was a black dog in animagus form, she
named him Sirius Black.

> =Albus= Dumbledore
> =Rubeus= Hagrid
> Sirius =Black=
>
> Arguably the three adults closest to Harry at this point.
>
> There are three "stages" in the alchemical process (and we =know= JKR
> has researched alchemy to a degree -- Nicolas Flamel was a real
> person, and of course the Philosopher's Stone is the stated goal of
> alchemy) called the albedo (white), rubedo (red) and nigredo (black).
>
> =Can= this be coincidental?  Somehow I doubt it.

This is a wonderful observation. But I doubt she did it consciously. I
think this is a sterling example of that indefinable "thing" that JKR
has, that makes her work great. She has a talent for making things work
right. Her names sound and "feel" right, her characters ring true. One
of the reasons this is so is that she is, somehow, plugged into the
collective pool of cultural knowledge better than the rest of us.

I am not saying she is not aware of some of the associations and
connotations of the names she picks. But I am saying that she's not
aware of a lot of them, that she named the characters the names she
thought fit them. It is her talent that the fit is so perfect. I think
she herself would be astonished at some of the relationships and
resonances we've found (like that Ron/Scabbers/yellow rat story
connection a while back).

My favorite illustration of this is the lucky gambler, who just seems to
win a lot, or (for you gamers out there), the nights you're playing and
the dice seem to know what's going on--the high rolls make sense, the
low rolls make sense, and it all comes together so well that you're
*there.* That is what JKR has, that ability to write so that it all
comes together. Perhaps her subconscious just percolates better than
most.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Mar  4 03:42:25 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 19:42:25 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thoughts and questions on wands
In-Reply-To: <97rfrk+kpes@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193521.03a20100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13503

At 07:14 PM 3/3/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>If not, it's pretty scary, since in a duel one could easily
>render one's opponent helpless by breaking his/her wand.  Scary, also,
>because we know that Harry's wand is one of the few weapons in the
>world that's effective against V, certainly the only thing known that
>can block his Avada Kedavra.

And an order of magnitude more scary, if the rumors are true that
Harry will be expelled in Book 5 (and his precious, Voldy-fighting
wand snapped in two??)!!

Personally, though, I'm not convinced they really break wands in
in two... Why does Hagrid's seem to work well (for growing
pumpkins and putting curly tails on bullying gits, anyway)?

>Maybe Fawkes could be persuaded to donate a magical army's worth of
>feathers--hence the name, "The Order of the Phoenix"?

Not a bad idea... Maybe a spare Fawkes-wand will be part of the
Hogwarts uniform next year.



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Mar  4 03:47:19 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 19:47:19 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Summary - Sirius (is sexy) Black
In-Reply-To: <014701c0a41a$f2516760$575dd63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303191730.029cccd0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13504

At 02:48 PM 3/3/01 -0500, Carole Estes wrote:
>1. How did he survive with his brain intact in Azkaban all those years?

He must have a self-esteem we'd all give anything for.  I think he also
must have had genuine faith that someday he'd get out, if only by a
change of MoM administrations to one that would insist that Magna
Carta applies to non-Muggles too, and that all must be granted
a fair trial.  Maybe he worked for 12 years to muster the strength to
turn into a dog and escape...  Seeing the photo of Wormtail in the
  _Prophet_ merely solidified his resolve.

And going back -- as I inevitably will -- to my analogy with Louisa May
Alcott's Dan, perhaps Sirius also had books to keep him sane in that
place.  (Though surely 12 years amongst the dementors required a few books
more than the Bible and "Aslauga's Knight".)  Also, he probably never told
anyone that he *had* any books -- That was Sir Thomas More's boo-boo.

And *does* Sirius have an "Aslauga"?  Madam Rosmerta, perhaps?  :)

>2. Do you think volatility is a character trait or a symptom?

Maybe he went a *little* mad in Azkaban... Who wouldn't, if they
knew they were innocent?

>3. Would he really make a good parent to Harry or would that relationship
>falter if it was too close (so far Sirius has been there for advice but
>hasn't had to play an authority figure to Harry yet)?

He gets pretty angry when he hears about Harry going off with Krum.
I think he could keep Harry in check.  I also think he's the only adult
that Harry entirely trusts (except reserved Lupin and "very busy"
Dumbledore).  I think he's the best candidate parent for Harry.

>4.  Why do a large part of the HP fandom think he's sexy (besides the fact
>that JKR said so...actually when asked if he was supposed to be dead sexy,
>JKR said yes.)?  What is it about his personality that is or is not
>attractive?

Well, he's a bit of a role model for guys like me with a tendancy
towards timidity.

>5. With apologies to Monika, who just wrote to me and asked this question
>this morning and I thought it was so good I included it....don't you think
>it's a bit weird that Dumbledore sends Sirius to alert everyone? What will
>they think when the escaped murderer knocks at their door?

D. must have already informed "the old crowd" that Sirius is innocent.



                                                 -- Dave




From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar  4 03:38:11 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:38:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry expelled?
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193521.03a20100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3AA1B8A3.DBA01B7D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13505

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:

> And an order of magnitude more scary, if the rumors are true that
> Harry will be expelled in Book 5 (and his precious, Voldy-fighting
> wand snapped in two??)!!

Source, please? This is the first I've heard of this, and there's rumors
and then there's rumors.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Mar  4 03:45:33 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:45:33 -0000
Subject: I know I'm more obsessed than THAT - a new quiz
Message-ID: <97sdot+b381@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13506

Okay, I took the 'How obsessed are you' quiz and I was disappointed to 
find that I am only 49% obsessed.  How little they know!  I want to 
add some questions of my own to that list. How do you rate with these?

*Do you Sort all the people you know?
*Are you shocked and horrified when people tell you they've never read 
HP?
*Or only read some of the books?
*Or only read all of them once?
*Do you feel a bit nervous if you say 'Voldemort' instead of 
'You-Know-Who'?
*Do you wish that you could go to Hogwarts and get asked by Harry 
Potter to the Yule Ball?
*Do you constantly think of people of Muggles - and you're not 
including yourself?
*Do you spend time wondering what wand would really be the best for 
you?
*Are you already worried about what you'll do after book 7 is 
released?

Now, my answer is yes to each and every one of these questions?  Am I 
missing any?  And how do others rate?

--




From rboswell at mediaone.net  Sun Mar  4 03:47:24 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:47:24 -0500
Subject: Harry's Scar
References: <983596826.1970.79512.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c0a45d$d5e76780$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13507

<snip?>
Am I being paranoid, or do you get the sense they're teasing us?  I
can just see the editor now, deciding to cut an otherwise perfect shot
out of the trailer because it shows The Scar and we aren't supposed to
see it yet!
Or maybe they've decided to make Harry scarless.  I mean,
it's not that central to the plot, right?  (evil screenwriter's laugh)
<un-snip>

    Nooo, Harry's scar is very essential!  The scar is the aftermath of the
curse that changed Harry's life, and it is obvious the scar has more meaning
than it's current, if the last word of the seventh book (a well known
rumour) *is* scar.  Plus, if it's not there, I know for a fact that JKR
would have a royal fit as well as all of us potter-maniacs.  :-)

--Becca
----- Original Message -----
From: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 12:20 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 625


> _______________________________________________
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also
consult our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @
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>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 25 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Order of the Phoenix Pre-Sale
>            From: wings909 at aol.com
>       2. Re: (trailer) question on the Great Hall
>            From: Morsus Crustum <shades_of_black at mail.com>
>       3. Re: (trailer) question on the Great Hall
>            From: wings909 at aol.com
>       4. Re: Trailer stills
>            From: flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com
>       5. Re: Trailer stills
>            From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com
>       6. Re: Trailer stills
>            From: pbnesbit at msn.com
>       7. Re: Trailer stills
>            From: flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com
>       8. Screaming scene
>            From: foxmoth at qnet.com
>       9. Casting for the twins?
>            From: "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com>
>      10. Re: The trailer (Percy and Hagrid's line)
>            From: "Saitaina" <saitaina at wizzards.net>
>      11. Re: trailer thoughts on th e"last line"
>            From: Persephone <hermitchick at crosswinds.net>
>      12. Finding the trailer on Dark Horizons
>            From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
>      13. Re: The trailer (Hagrid's line)
>            From: "Trina" <lj2d30 at gateway.net>
>      14. Re: Screaming scene
>            From: "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at hotmail.com>
>      15. Scar, Boy Who Lived (was Screaming scene)
>            From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
>      16. Re: trailer music
>            From: "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>
>      17. Wingardium Leviosa (trailer)
>            From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at carr.org>
>      18. RE: Wingardium Leviosa (trailer)
>            From: Morsus Crustum <shades_of_black at mail.com>
>      19. Re: Wingardium Leviosa Scene
>            From: morine10 at aol.com
>      20. Re: Harry and Cedric, with a stab at definition
>            From: Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu>
>      21. Re: (trailer) question on the Great Hall
>            From: Teek <purdymango1 at yahoo.com>
>      22. trailer help (no spoilers)
>            From: aichambaye at yahoo.com
>      23. He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Name (who Voldemort?) Shhh!!!!
>            From: "Scott" <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com>
>      24. Re: He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Name (who Voldemort?) Shhh!!!!
>            From: wings909 at aol.com
>      25. trailer
>            From: kris403 at yahoo.com
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:53:53 EST
>    From: wings909 at aol.com
> Subject: Order of the Phoenix Pre-Sale
>
> This may already be old news or not, but Amazon.com has The Order of the
Phoenix on pre-sale.  They have the publication date set for 2002!
>
> Amazon.co.uk doesn't have the OotP on pre-sale yet, but they do mention
that GoF will be on sale in paperback in July 2001.
>
> Well, at least we have the Quidditch Though the Ages, and Fantastic Beasts
books to help us with the withdrawal.
>
> Cheers,
> Paula
> Gryffindor (86% obsessed...I've lost my mind)
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:59:15 -0500 (EST)
>    From: Morsus Crustum <shades_of_black at mail.com>
> Subject: Re: (trailer) question on the Great Hall
>
> W
> H
> Y
>
> H
> A
> V
> E
> N
> '
> T
>
> Y
> O
> U
>
> S
> E
> E
> N
>
> I
> T
>
> B
> Y
>
> N
> O
> W
> ?
>
>
> *looks dazed* Errrgh. I stayed up most of the night reading and re-reading
> and re-re-reading PS and I cannot, for the life of me, find any scene in
> which Hagrid walks The Trio down to his hut. He sends them invitations by
> owl. *beats head against keyboard*
> As for the now infamous Scream scene... There is not a scene where this
> happens. At all. So this means they have changed the script. I seriously
> doubt that this is the ghost-in-the-Great-Hall thing, simply because they
> weren't standing together at that point (and if they were, Neville would
be
> with them since he was in thier boat), there isn't anyone else around,
they
> turn and run away, and, um, the trump card: wizards and witches would know
> about ghosts. For cripe's sake, Ron has a goul living in his attic (better
> than a skeleton in his closet, LOL). I know that there are gasps and
shreiks
> in the book, but I presume that is from the Muggle borns. The part where
> they are running through a classroom is supposed to be day time. Freeze it
> at some point - the light cast on the far wall is white, which signifies
it
> isn't candle light. Plus, it's in roughly the same shape as a window.
> *wiggles eyebrows* Thank you, thank you, no applause, just throw money.
> As for the theory that this is the Fluffy Thing - no. One of the main
points
> in that whole escapade was the fact Hermione was interfering with their
> plans. She was waiting up for them. Besides, you think they would cut the
> part where Hermione is wearing a pink bathrobe? ^_^ I doubt it. Neville is
> crucial because this is where we learn more about Madam Pomfrey's cures.
> "[My arm is] fine....Madam Pomfrey mended it in about a minute." * plus *
> the running thing is during the day, as stated above. Unless, of course,
it
> is a spliced scene, mixing two events, which it very well could be. Hum.
>
> MC/Blythe Spirit/Dervish
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
> Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
>    Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:19:03 EST
>    From: wings909 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: (trailer) question on the Great Hall
>
> I'm almost positive that they have *added* scenes or changed certain
ones....this should be no big surprise to anyone who's ever followed a
book-to-film process.  While there are a lot of HP fans out there, as I see
from the steady river of email in my box a day, but this movie will
primarily be for those muggles who have no inkling about who Harry Potter
is.  They're making a movie that will be based on the book, but...you won't
have to read the book to understand what's going on in the movie.
>
> The "screaming" scene may very well have no basis in the book, something
the movie-makers stuck in the middle of the movie as a scare.  Dear me, can
everyone imagine what this list will be like when the movie *does* come out?

>
> Cheers,
> Paula
> Gryffindor (86% obsessed...I'm nutters)
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
>    Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 20:32:42 -0000
>    From: flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: Trailer stills
>
> I just tried that link and it comes up with a message that it is
> closed!
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> > The Harry Potter Gallery at
> www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery
> > has some *amazing* stills from the trailer.  Close-ups!!
> >
> > Peace & Plenty,
> >
> > Parker
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > '...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper
> > death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
> >
> > 'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
>    Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:09:40 -0000
>    From: rcraigharman at hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: Trailer stills
>
> Go here instead:
>
> http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/intro.htm
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., flaearthgoddess at y... wrote:
> > I just tried that link and it comes up with a message that it is
> > closed!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> > > The Harry Potter Gallery at
> > www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery
> > > has some *amazing* stills from the trailer.  Close-ups!!
> > >
> > > Peace & Plenty,
> > >
> > > Parker
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > --
> > > '...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper
> > > death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
> > >
> > > 'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > --
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
>    Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:12:06 -0000
>    From: pbnesbit at msn.com
> Subject: Re: Trailer stills
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., flaearthgoddess at y... wrote:
> > I just tried that link and it comes up with a message that it is
> > closed!
>
> OK, try this one:
>
> www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery3.htm
>
> That should get it & there are links to the stills.  It's on my
> favourites list!
>
> Parker
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> > > The Harry Potter Gallery at
> > www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery
> > > has some *amazing* stills from the trailer.  Close-ups!!
> > >
> > > Peace & Plenty,
> > >
> > > Parker
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > --
> > > '...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper
> > > death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
> > >
> > > 'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > --
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
>    Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:30:48 -0000
>    From: flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: Trailer stills
>
> Thank You! It worked.
>
> Michelle
>
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rcraigharman at h... wrote:
> > Go here instead:
> >
> > http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/intro.htm
> >
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., flaearthgoddess at y... wrote:
> > > I just tried that link and it comes up with a message that it is
> > > closed!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> > > > The Harry Potter Gallery at
> > > www.redmailorder.com/potter/moviegallery
> > > > has some *amazing* stills from the trailer.  Close-ups!!
> > > >
> > > > Peace & Plenty,
> > > >
> > > > Parker
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > --
> > > --
> > > > '...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even
> stopper
> > > > death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's
> Stone
> > > >
> > > > 'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > --
> > > --
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
>    Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:42:31 -0000
>    From: foxmoth at qnet.com
> Subject: Screaming scene
>
> Did anyone think we were gonna get a  movie *without* a screaming
> scene? From *this* director? At least they don't have their hands up
> around their faces.
> Pippin
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
>    Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:42:48 -0000
>    From: "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com>
> Subject: Casting for the twins?
>
> Redmailorder has these names listed as unconfirmed for playing F &
> G:  James Phelps -- Fred, and Oliver Phelps -- George.  I know we had
> been wondering if there was any word on who the actors might be, but
> don't recall if this was mentioned yet.  Has anyone heard anything
> definite about this?
>
> Kelley -- off to search for pics now
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
>    Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:49:48 -0800
>    From: "Saitaina" <saitaina at wizzards.net>
> Subject: Re: The trailer (Percy and Hagrid's line)
>
> I know, just annoys me when there are lines that aren't in a novel I damn
near have memorized...but at least theirs a movie at all.  I shall be
grateful and keep my yap shut...most of the time.
>
>
> Saitaina
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
>    Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:04:08 -0500
>    From: Persephone <hermitchick at crosswinds.net>
> Subject: Re: trailer thoughts on th e"last line"
>
> heiditandy at yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > s
> > p
> > o
> > i
> > l
> > e
> > r
> > f
> > o
> > r
> > t
> > h
> > e
> > t
> > r
> > a
> > i
> > l
> > e
> > r
> >
> > It seems my first post on this didn't go through. Grrr.
> > I watched the end of the trailer very carefully on the highest
> > resolution possible, and I am convinced that Hagrid's mouth movements
> > and words do NOT match up when he says, "Harry, you're the boy who
> > lived" - it looks like he's saying the line from the book - "Harry,
> > you're a wizard!" but I wouldn't bet gryffindor's sword on it...
> > If someone who is better than me at lip reading could check it out,
> > that would be great.
> >
>
> I couldn't tell, mine keeps jumping, and I have to watch it fraim by
> frame to see it all, this gets really anoying.
>
>
> > On a different screen-freezing note, the only part of the trailer
> > where it looks like harry's hair is off his forehead is the bit when
> > the Bludger is released from the strap. Has anyone been able to
> > freeze that bit so we can see if the scar is visible?
> > I am not surprised that they gave him heavy bangs - it says very
> > clearly in Book 1 that his hair was worn in a fringe - the bit where
> > aunt petunia cuts everything but that is the longest description, and
> > to be honest, since the first book cover I saw was for SS, not PS, I
> > assumed he did have bangs/fringe, and it was just being blown back as
> > he flew to catch the Snitch.
> >
>
> Here are some rather bad scren shots made by myself, they're rather
> blurey to see, and  if I mak it bigger it gets really blury; but I did
> makethem from the 10kb Quick time version.  I hope they work, I uploaded
> them to geocities, and they sometimes mix up file names when you upload
> more than one at a time, I really hate that!
>
> Here they are:
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry1.jpg
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry2.jpg
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry3.jpg
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry4.jpg
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry5.jpg
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry6.jpg
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry7.jpg
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harryr8.jpg
>
> An attempt to sharpen the closer shots, very bad though:
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry2-s.jpg
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry3-s.jpg
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry4-s.jpg
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/harry5-s.jpg
>
> And Snape, because I wanted to:
> http://geocities.com/hermitchick/trailer/snape.jpg
>
> -Kate, who has too much free time and no life
>
> --
> "So we reach into the raging chaos, and we pluck some
> small glittering thing, and we cling to it, and tell
> ourselves it has meaning, and that the world is good,
> and we are not evil and we will all go home in the end."
> - Lestat, "Tale of the Body Thief" by Anne Rice
>
> Persephone's Lair: http://geocities.com/hermitchick
> Harry and Draco Archive: http://geocities.com/harry_and_draco
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
>    Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 00:15:02 -0000
>    From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Finding the trailer on Dark Horizons
>
> Dark Horizons has been updated.  What you have to do is click on News
> & Rumours, scroll down to yesterday's date (March 1) and click on
> that, and you'll come to the page of March 1 updates.  The trailer
> links are about halfway down that page.
>
> Boy, it's not often I can give any tech advice.
>
> Still gritting my teeth over spotty Quicktime and spottier RealPlayer
> versions, but taking comfort in the superclear stills at
> redmailorder.com,
>
> Amy Z
>
> ---------------------------------------
>  If only the hat had mentioned a house
>  for people who felt a bit queasy,
>  that would have been the one for him.
>      --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
> ---------------------------------------
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 13
>    Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 00:22:43 -0000
>    From: "Trina" <lj2d30 at gateway.net>
> Subject: Re: The trailer (Hagrid's line)
>
> I know that Hagrid never says "Harry, you're the boy who lived";
> however, I am not letting this bother me.  For one thing, I think it
> may mean that the bit in the book where people are meeting in secret
> and toasting "Harry Potter--the boy who lived!" is probably not in
> the film (just my opinion) and they wanted to get it in the film
> somewhere.  And for another, it wouldn't be the first time that a
> line is in the trailer but not in the final film version.  For
> example, when I went to see "My Best Friend's Wedding" I fully
> expected to hear Julia Roberts utter the line, "In situations like
> this, I try to figure out what Lucy Ricardo would do." (or something
> like that, my memory is a bit fuzzy) because it was in the trailer.
> But she never said it in the film.  So, we shall just have to wait
> and see!
>
> Trina
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
>    Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 02:22:42 -0000
>    From: "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Screaming scene
>
> Delurking for a sec to read trailer posts...
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> > Did anyone think we were gonna get a  movie *without* a screaming
> > scene? From *this* director? At least they don't have their hands
> up
> > around their faces.
> > Pippin
>
> Aw, c'mon, Pip!  :-D  You can't say that Dan is a dead ringer for
> Macaulay Culkin (BTW, wonder what Home Alone Boy's up to these
> days?).  Just from the little we can discern from the trailer, I
> don't think a case can be made for sickly-sweet "I'm soo cute"
> acting.  Which was one of my fears about a live-action movie.
>
> Despite the screaming and giggling I've been doing to fandom friends
> via IM over the past 48 hours ("Aah!  I can't stop watching it,
> Carole!"), my optimism is still cautious.  It'll be great to come out
> of the closet to my sisters (who will LOVE the movie--they're just
> not big on recreational reading!), but it'll be even more great if
> some of the small nitpicks are corrected.
>
> The Great Hall was perfect IMHO.  I always imagined a larger room,
> but after watching the trailer, it's now fixed in my memory and will
> remain there as I read.
>
> I have to get used to seeing the actors in their roles, especially
> Emma and Rupert.  The glimpse of Felton made me exhale (winks at all
> the Draco fans)--yes, that's Draco.  Dan is perfect as Harry... hope
> they'll do movie versions of the PS and SS covers.  Except... where's
> the scar?  I know his hair's covering it, but...
>
> Have no problem with the "Boy Who Lived" line, especially when it was
> my sig quote in early fandom days some months back.  What's wrong
> with slogans?  Campaigns are run, wars waged, and empires built on
> their foundation.  Ender Wiggin is the Xenocide and the Speaker for
> the Dead, Superman's Faster Than a Speeding Bullet... Harry Potter's
> the Boy Who Lived.  Works for me.
>
> The Wingardium Leviosa business was too cute... now we'll have to
> endure months of the Feather Theory, right, Kathy and Mo?
>
> (Which reminds me.  Kathy and Mo and others of like temperament, go
> to ff.net and read "Picturesque"... you'll know why once you start
> reading it.  Penny and crew, read that one with a grain of salt, then
> if you're in the mood for fluff designed for those of our
> inclination, read "Dancing Shoes".)  ;-)
>
> Back to deep lurkdom...
>
> --Ebony AKA AngieJ
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
>    Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 02:39:56 -0000
>    From: "Amy Z" <aiz24 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Scar, Boy Who Lived (was Screaming scene)
>
> >Dan is perfect as Harry... hope
> > they'll do movie versions of the PS and SS covers.
>
> Dan is great, I agree, but if they're going to do a new cover, I wish
> it would have Jo's Harry drawing on it.  That's my Harry!
>
> >Except...
> >where's
> > the scar?  I know his hair's covering it, but...
>
> Am I being paranoid, or do you get the sense they're teasing us?  I
> can just see the editor now, deciding to cut an otherwise perfect shot
> out of the trailer because it shows The Scar and we aren't supposed to
> see it yet!
>
> Or maybe they've decided to make Harry scarless.  I mean,
> it's not that central to the plot, right?  (evil screenwriter's laugh)
>
> > Have no problem with the "Boy Who Lived" line, especially when it
> was
> > my sig quote in early fandom days some months back.  What's wrong
> > with slogans?  Campaigns are run, wars waged, and empires built on
> > their foundation.
>
> Well, there's your answer.  <g>
>
> As I said, I really can't defend this opinion of mine rationally.  I
> think that, like anything else in writing, it is okay in moderation,
> but when you take fanfic as a whole, it goes way overboard.  I'm aware
> that that's very unfair--I can't hold it against one piece of fanfic
> (or one movie) that it does something that all the others do.  Still,
> when a writer is doing something that all the others do, it may be a
> warning sign.
>
> Amy Z
> running an all-PS/SS sigs special this week in honor of the trailer
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>  "We could all have been killed--or worse, expelled."
>                    -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 16
>    Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 03:04:06 -0000
>    From: "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Re: trailer music
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > Caius Marcius wrote:
> >
> > > Trailers do not necessarily use the score of the finished film.
> This
> > > far in advance, Williams probably hasn't even completed it. It may
> > > have been Danny Elfman that you heard: I wish I had a nickel for
> every
> > > time I've heard his Beetlejuice score in another movie's trailer.
> >
> > Okay, you can have the nickels for Beetlejuice if I can have the
> ones
> > for Carmina Burana. Deal?
> >
> >
> We'd make a fortune - or should I say a "Fortuna"?
>
>  - CMC (way Orff-track)
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 17
>    Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:02:41 -0500
>    From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at carr.org>
> Subject: Wingardium Leviosa (trailer)
>
> Ebony wrote:
> >The Wingardium Leviosa business was too cute... now we'll have to
> >endure months of the Feather Theory, right, Kathy and Mo?
>
> You betcha!  I have to say, seeing a Ron and Hermione scene in the trailer
> made me grin like an idiot.
>
>
> >(Which reminds me.  Kathy and Mo and others of like temperament, go
> >to ff.net and read "Picturesque"... you'll know why once you start
> >reading it.
>
> Oh, Ebony, I've missed you and your wonderful recommendations!  Off to
read it
> now... (but maybe I'll watch the trailer just one more time first...)
>
> Kathy
> AKA Elanor Gamgee
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 18
>    Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:20:02 -0500 (EST)
>    From: Morsus Crustum <shades_of_black at mail.com>
> Subject: RE: Wingardium Leviosa (trailer)
>
> Ebony wrote:
> >The Wingardium Leviosa business was too cute... now we'll have to
> >endure months of the Feather Theory, right, Kathy and Mo?
>
> <You betcha!  I have to say, seeing a Ron and Hermione scene in the
trailer
> made me grin like an idiot.>
>
> Ditto on the grinning...that was such an awesome scene. But what do you
mean
> by the Feather Theory?
>
> Ginny Love, Blythe Spirit, MC, or Loser With Too Many Names
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
> Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 19
>    Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:44:21 EST
>    From: morine10 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: Wingardium Leviosa Scene
>
> In a message dated 3/2/01 9:24:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> ebonyink at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
> > The Wingardium Leviosa business was too cute... now we'll have to
> > endure months of the Feather Theory, right, Kathy and Mo?
> >
>
> Ah yes, my favorite scene from the trailer.  I'll *try* to wait until I
see
> the movie before I make any comments.  However I suggest that we reserve
the
> acronym WLFT for future use.  ; )
>
> -Mo
> Peace, Love, Harry Potter ~8^)
> *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
> "Wonderful girl.  Either I'm going to kill her or I'm beginning to like
her."
>                       -Han Solo, Star Wars Episode IV
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 20
>    Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:32:15 -0500 (EST)
>    From: Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: Harry and Cedric, with a stab at definition
>
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
>
> > My second point to the above is that we are an adult literary discussion
> > group, so we needn't worry about whether a 12 yr old child would
> > understand Jen's homo-erotic literary crit analysis of the Harry/Cedric
> > dynamic (or what said 12 yr old might think of that analysis).  This
> > group is for adults to discuss the books after all.  :--)
>
> Thanks, Penny!  That's exactly how I feel about it.  And even a true
> 'children's book', if there can ever be such a thing, is susceptible to
> literary analysis.  While the 12 yr old's reactions might be interesting
> for, say, a reader-response based criticism, they're irrelevant, at
> best, to the particular analysis I'm offering.
>
> > I'd also second Amanda's request for a nice definition of
> > homo-erotic, just for discussion purposes.  :--)
>
> Amanda's request:
> > Could someone define "homoerotic" for me, then? I'm perfectly capable
> > of appreciating that another woman is beautiful, without any erotic
> > content in the observation.
>
> Since I didn't want this discussion to be too much my own (inevitably
> idiosyncratic) point of view, I spent about half an hour in the library
> yesterday looking at various handbooks and lexica of literary criticm
> and theory and critical theory, and eventually found *one* definition of
> homoerotic:
>
> "Homoerotic denotes erotic (though not necessarily overtly sexual)
> depictions that imply same-sex attraction or that might appeal sexually
> to a same-sex reader, for example a sensually evocative description of
> women in the process of helping each other undress or of nude men
> bathing in a pond.  Such depiction can occur in any medium, such as
> film, painting, sculpure, photography, and, of course, literature."  L.
> Tyson, _Critical theory today: a user-friendly guide_ (New York and
> London: Garland, 1999), 322.
>
> It's not a definition I'm entirely happy with, as I hope to make clear
> shortly, but it's a starting place.  I was completely unable to find any
> sort of scholarly genealogy for the term (who coined it, who's used it,
> etc.).  But it's part of the widely varied approaches that make up
> what's known as queer theory, a type of critical theory which owes much
> of its impetus and terminology to feminist criticism.  I had hoped that
> Eve Kosofsky Sedgewick would have used it, but no, she doesn't.
> Nonetheless, I think most uses of the term are informed by readings of
> her work (_Between Men: English Literature and Male Homosocial Desire_;
> _Epistemology of the Closet_, particularly).
>
> Homoerotic is basically a term used in contrast with two others:
> homosexual and homosocial.  It is used specifically to describe
> portrayals (as in literature or film) of same-sex eroticism; you would
> never say, "The poet Walt Whitman was homoerotic."  (I'm sorry if any of
> this is obvious.)  You could, however, say that "Whitman's poetry is
> highly homoerotic."  It does not necessarily imply same-sex sexual
> behavior; one can argue that, for example, the letters of Pliny the
> Younger to the historian Tacitus have homoerotic overtones without ever
> suggesting that Pliny was having any sort of 'affair' with Tacitus.  (I
> mention, only in passing, that Whitman once, after a letter from a
> (male) admirer suggested that it might be, maybe, remotely possible that
> Whitman himself had been with a man sexually, responded vehemently in
> the negative, (feigning to be) shocked that anyone could make such a
> suggestion...)  Similarly, homosexual is generally reserved as a
> description of behavior, rather than portrayals of the expression
> of emotion.  (I leave aside the question of whether it should be applied
> as a label of identity rather than behavior.)  One would much more
> regularly describe Michelangelo's David as homoerotic than
> homosexual.
>
> IOW, despite the claim of my otherwise very reliable Webster's
> Collegiate dictionary, homoerotic is not a synonym for homosexual.
>
> A second distinction between these two words is in the use of the noun
> 'homoeroticism', which *is* used to refer to behavior rather than
> portrayal, for the period before the word 'homosexuality' is appropriate
> (in accordance with Foucauldian analysis of the construction of the
> concept of homosexual/gay identity in the 20th century).  One thus will
> see reference to, for example, 'female homoeroticism in ancient Greece',
> where behavior is actually meant.  Such use should be avoided, however,
> in my opinion.  I tend to go for the rather more cumbersome, but more
> accurate, 'same-sex sexual behavior' or 'same-sex sexual/affectional
> relationship' vel sim.  But this distinction is obviously tangential to
> HP, which is a 20th/21st c. work.
>
> Homoerotic can also be used to refer to behavior and emotions that,
> while not sexual proper, are heading, as it were, towards the sexual.
> In these cases, homoerotic signals mainly the lack of any possibility of
> genital contact, while not precluding other sorts of physical contact
> (hugging, kissing, etc.).  This point is where there can begin to be
> some fuzziness of the sort that Amanda was alluding to.  The erotic is
> not the sexual, but it can be extremely difficult to say exactly what
> the difference between the two is, as it can be very difficult to
> distinguish the erotic from the so-called platonic.  Intensity and
> exclusivity are two important markers of the erotic here.  This usage
> definitely has heterosexual in mind as the contrast, actually, rather
> than homosexual, and is, I think, mainly current in the social sciences.
>
> The other term from which homoerotic is distinguished is homosocial,
> which properly refers to same-sex relationships which are formally
> lacking in sexual or erotic elements.  In reference to activities,
> homosocial is used of what is more commonly termed, for instance,
> male-bonding.  It can also be used (unlike homoerotic) of people, to
> refer to those whose primary preference is to associate (as friends, as
> colleagues, etc.) with their own gender.  It thus can also be opposed to
> homosexual -- a gay man whose friends are primarily women could be said
> to be homosexual, but heterosocial.  Institutions and such are often
> described as homosocial.
>
> But again, the categories begin to overlap to some extent, and it is
> completely unclear (particularly before the turn of the century, again
> relying on Foucauldian analysis of the history of sexuality) where to
> mark the boundary between homosocial and homosexual, which exist rather
> (in Sedgwick's analysis in _Between Men_) on a continuum.  She
> introduces the concept of 'homosocial desire', a term which is in many
> instances synonymous, as I understand her, with 'homoerotic'.
> (Genital) sexuality / sexual activity is not at issue, but the *emotion*
> which otherwise might give rise to sexual behavior is there in the text.
>
> Homoerotic is also used particularly of texts that are 'non-gay',
> whether because of time period (pre 20th c.), or because of their
> homophobic main text, or because, as in HP, of the supposed absence of
> gay issues.
>
> I hope that helped, and didn't just make things more confusing!  My own
> field is Classics, so I also hope I've not made any misrepresentations
> when making statements about the word's usage outside of Classics (which
> is entirely possible).  I'm trying to be more general than just Latin or
> Greek literature, and I might be losing a little of the specificity of
> definition in so doing.
>
> Amanda:
> > To expand in rambling fashion--I think it's a mark of a great work,
> > that it can be validly interpreted any number of ways. [Best
> > example: the Bible.]
>
> I agree, absolutely.  And I'm *definitely* not claiming that my reading
> of the Harry/Cedric relationship is the only 'correct' one.  Most works
> of literature can be interpreted through any critical method/theory,
> though certain works lend themselves more easily to analysis by certain
> methodologies.  One could offer all sorts of literary analyses of HP
> -- Freudian, Lacanian (the Mirror of Erised *g*), feminist, New
> Critical, deconstructionist, reader-response, etc., etc... (And of
> course, the relationship between David and Jonathan or Ruth and Naomi
> in the Bible has been read as homoerotic...)
>
> > So I'm certain the homoerotic reading of this scene has some
> > validity, but this discussion seems to be edging the way of the
> > theories of Marja Gambutas
> <snip of discussion of Gimbutas' theories about the prehistoric goddess>
> > Thus I'm asking for a definition, for clarity's sake.
>
> I hope I've made it a little bit clearer that the term does have a
> fairly rigorous meaning, though it can sometimes be applied a little
> loosely, particularly for polemic's sake.  To be more explicit --
> aesthetic appreciation and erotic appreciation are certainly not the
> same thing.  But neither are they entirely discrete categories.  There
> can (must) be overlap between the two, just as there can (must) be
> overlap between the erotic and the sexual.  In literary analysis there
> will be at some point a subjective judgement call as to when something
> is erotic and when it is not; language and context are the two most
> important factors in this decision.  I've tried to show how I see both
> language and context contributing to a homoeroticized portrayal of
> Harry's feelings for Cedric in the Yule Ball scene, but I think one
> would have a much more difficult time, for example, showing any
> eroticism in Harry's feelings for Ron.  Though there are no fixed
> criteria, all I can say is that there must be specific evidence from a
> text that demonstrates eroticism to call a passage homoerotic.  But
> precisely *what* such evidence consists of is a matter of debate.
>
> Moving on...
>
> AmyZ wrote:
> > Girls follow him around as much as they do Viktor Krum; people wear
> > "Support Cedric Diggory" badges (is this treating someone as an
> > object of desire?  My lit-crit jargon is rusty); he is the stand-in
> > for all Hufflepuffs in their usually-thwarted dreams of glory.  He
> > is their champion.
>
> I don't have my copy of GoF here, so I can't look at the text as I would
> like to.  I suspect that there is some eroticism implicit in the
> description of girls following him (opposite-sex eroticism is always
> less problematic than same-sex eroticism)...  but I'd *really* have to
> look at the text to know about the badges bit.  It's well within the
> realm of possiblity that such a scene could be (homo)erotic, but it
> could also not be.  Does anyone want to quote the text?  The mere fact
> of his being a role model definitely doesn't make him an object of
> desire.  Only if there is a slippage between a desire to be Cedric and a
> desire for Cedric would there be eroticism.
>
> --jen, heeing the cries of 'enough already'! :)
>
> * * * * * *
> Jen's HP fics:
> http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
> Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
> Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 21
>    Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 20:53:01 -0800 (PST)
>    From: Teek <purdymango1 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: (trailer) question on the Great Hall
>
>
> --- Morsus Crustum <shades_of_black at mail.com> wrote:
>
> > As for the now infamous Scream scene... There is not a scene where
> > this
> > happens. At all. So this means they have changed the script. I
> > seriously
> > doubt that this is the ghost-in-the-Great-Hall thing, simply
> > because they
> > weren't standing together at that point (and if they were, Neville
> > would be
> > with them since he was in thier boat), there isn't anyone else
> > around, they
> > turn and run away, and, um, the trump card: wizards and witches
> > would know
> > about ghosts. For cripe's sake, Ron has a goul living in his attic
> > (better
> > than a skeleton in his closet, LOL
>
> 'nother reason it can't be the ghost scene at the sorting - they're
> wearing the gryfindor ties, not the black ones with the crest seen at
> the sorting. If they've fogotten the pajamas/neville in the fluffy
> scene I will be more than frustrated, but that seems the most likely
> posibility right now. Neville could possibly be standing off screen,
> I think there might be a shadow there. They're right in front of a
> door, which they run towards... They never run from the troll all
> together like that.
>
> I have the horrible feeling we won't know until November, and with
> our luck, that particular shot will end up on the cutting room floor.
>
> I've been watching it, and I LOVE Emma Watson, she's growing on me.
> She's VERY Hermione, if not the one that lived in my head.
> And my parents were spazzing out about how wonderful Snape is going
> to be... hehe. It's nice to be around Potterphiles all day.
> -Teek
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 22
>    Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 04:58:22 -0000
>    From: aichambaye at yahoo.com
> Subject: trailer help (no spoilers)
>
> I've watched the high res quick time version several times, but when
> I right click, I can't a.)save or b.) get a frame URL so I can play
> it on the quick time program (not the teeny little quick time window)
> and see it BIG.
>
> Windows media gives me sound and no pics; when I right click I get a
> URL that won't work in the Media Player itself.
>
> Can anyone email me a URL off-list or give me some tips on making it
> work? I have a large monitor and would like to see the darned trailer
> bigger than a 3 by 4 inch box.
>
> Thanks,
> Heather M.
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 23
>    Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:02:01 -0000
>    From: "Scott" <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Name (who Voldemort?) Shhh!!!!
>
> I know that it's not time for our discussion on everyone's favourite
> villian, but the it is scheduled for next week so I will jump ahead.
> I'm sort of responding to something that was posted in the past week
> (what I can't remember after plowing through 300+ messages. Do ya
> think I need a rememberall? No don't answer that I would just forget
> where I'd put it...)
>
> Nota Bene: I am NOT supposed to be giving Voldy's character summary,
> and that's NOT what this is. It's only my ramblings on the big V.
>
> "Could you write it down?" Harry suggested?
>
> "Nah-can't spell it. All right- *Voldemort*." Hagrid shuddered. "Don'
> make me say it again..."
>
> --Would there be a Harry Potter story without Voldemort? Probably
> not. Yet as important to the plot as he is there are some real
> problems with him in my opinon. Voldemort may be a murdering
> psychopath but he is your TYPICAL murdering psyhopath. He is very
> predictable.
>
> In other words, Hannibal Lecter he's not. (However I liked Hannibal
> the movie and loved Scilence of the Lambs. The books were still
> better though. As much as I probably should hate Hannibal "the
> Cannibal" I don't. I really wanted him and Clarice to get together at
> the end, as unrealistic as that is...erm how did I get on THIS
> subject? Oh yeah-)
>
> Cedric Diggory's death showed that Voldemort was evil, and that he
> didn't care who he killed to get what he wanted. However Voldemort
> himself had no personal connections to Diggory, (does he have any
> personal connections to ANYONE) and so this made it seem I don't know
> "less". A villian that can kill his "friends" without any remorse is
> far scarier than one that simply kill those that he doesn't know to
> gain power. Perhaps this is a personal perception.
>
> Voldemort is to me the weakest part of the HP stories, (the Trio's
> friendship being one of the strongest).  He was in book one and he
> tried to kill Harry. Harry wins, and he HAS to so that he can be in
> book II right? In the second he tries yet again to kill Harry...and
> so on. That is why I liked PoA so much because Harry was dealing with
> "inner demons" brought out through the Dementors instead of a
> storybook villian.
>
> Again I am NOT saying that Voldemort is not a serious villian or that
> the war he will seemingly cause in future willn't be devastating and
> hit Harry and our other characters very hard. But evil as a concept
> can be more frightening than its incarnation (i.e. Voldy). So what is
> scarier- Voldemort himself, or how people become Voldemort?
>
> How will Harry continue to fight the big V in the future?
> Will Harry defeat Voldemort completely at the end of book seven, even
> if it kills him?*
> *(Will he defeat VOLDEMORT not necessarialy EVIL?)
>
> Scott
> Who has decided to once again use his favourite sig...
> Oh by the way that last picture of Harry smiling in the Trailer DOES
> look like John Lennon.
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> "I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in
> fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your
> mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the
> here and now?  Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." - John
> Lennon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 24
>    Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:09:52 EST
>    From: wings909 at aol.com
> Subject: Re: He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Name (who Voldemort?) Shhh!!!!
>
> In a message dated 03/03/2001 12:03:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> harry_potter00 at yahoo.com writes:
>
> <<  A villian that can kill his "friends" without any remorse is
>  far scarier than one that simply kill those that he doesn't know to
>  gain power. Perhaps this is a personal perception. >>
>
> If that is true Scott...then what do you think about V killing his father?
> Didn't seem to me that V was remorseful telling Harry about that.  "I
killed
> my father, and see how useful he has proved himself, in death..."
>
> Cheers,
> Paula
> Gryffindor
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 25
>    Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:20:23 -0000
>    From: kris403 at yahoo.com
> Subject: trailer
>
> I give up.  I can't possibly keep up with all the posts on this site.  The
trailer was wonderful.  I thought I had the scream scene figured out, then I
reread a chapter, saw the trailer again... and no.
>
> I can't believe how observant everyone is.  I think we have to be
realistic though and realize that some things will have to be changed from
the books.  Not every line will be the same, and unfortunately we won't get
to see the thoughts inside Harry's head at times.  I can deal with the small
changes.  I've heard that quiddich may not be as in depth as the book
because of special effects, and that other scenes will incorporate more than
what was in the book.  That is all fine.  I was simply terrified that this
would end up a movie where the book and the movie are not even related.  I'm
sure you have all read a book, then viewed the movie, only to wonder how
they ever got the script.  I don't think that will be a problem in this
case.
>
> Also, I have seen many trailers that have used scenes that have never made
it into the movie.  I always left the movie wondering if I missed something.
That is probably the case with the boy who lived line.  It's there right now
for show.  It's big, dramatic.  The book line, while we all love it, isn't
as bold for a trailer.  I guess we'll all just have to wait.
>
> I for one was very happy to see that there didn't seem to be a lot of
phony looking computer animation.  The goblins were real, not generated.
>
> November seems forever away.
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 03:51:42 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 19:51:42 -0800
Subject: I know I'm more obsessed than THAT - a new quiz
Message-ID: <F253gX2XdoYfYoiB5AN00003d27@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13508


*snort* I was yes to all of those questions, too. But I rated 119% on the 
offical test, so I have nothing to complain about ^_^ There is somthing 
distinctly creepy about being that obsessed with a book series. I mean, 
where would we all be if JK Rowling's manuscript got turned down by 
Bloomsbury? We'd all be screwed. *shudder* That's like trying to imagine the 
world if you didn't exsist.....impossible. Nasty.



==============
Morsus Crustum

Pen Name: Blythe Spirit
Obsession: 119%
Ship: Draco/Harry. Opposites attract, baby.
Favorite Book (yet): Chamber Of Secrets
Favorite Character: Lucius Malfoy
HP Actor That's Unnervingly Adorible: Daniel Radcliffe

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Mar  4 04:01:34 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:01:34 -0800
Subject: New Thought about Dumbledore's "Look of triumph"
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303194735.029ca230@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13509

Consider this bit from PS/SS:

"That is because it is a monstrous thing, to slay a unicorn," said
Firenze. "Only one who has nothing to lose, and everything to gain,
would commit such a crime. The blood of a unicorn will keep you alive,
even if you are an inch from death, but at a terrible price. You have
slain something pure and defenseless to save yourself, and you will have
but a half-life, a cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your
lips."

Does the above apply to Voldemort using Harry's blood?  Is he now
cursed, as a result of slaying something pure and defenseless (Lilly)
and then taking blood through which Lilly's love flows?   And/Or will
the Flesh, Blood, and Bone incantation, cute though it is, *not*
protect him from the curse he acquired from drinking the unicorn's
blood?  In any case, are his days now truly numbered because he's
slowly dying of a disease that only afflicts totally evil beings called
"Hate Cancer"?


                                                 -- Dave




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar  4 05:00:33 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:00:33 -0800
Subject: Sirius - Flying Motorbike - Snape/Amanda - Albus 
Message-ID: <3AA1CBEE.1F9BFB6E@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13510

MC Crusty wrote:
> Sirius Black strikes me as a very good man, but a very irresponsible
> one. *dodges tomatoes* Face it. He was a Marauder. I don't think
> that James could have succeeded at single parenting.

I never want to sound sentimental; I always want to be a hardheaded
realist. But over time (I'm 43), I have discovered that some of the
things I used to believe were wrong. When I was 23, my friend Robyn, a
19 year old high school dropout and runaway, had a baby -- her boyfriend
broke up with her when she refused to have an abortion, so she went on
welfare. I felt sure that  irresponsible flakey Robyn who couldn't even
manage to keep a job (she always got fired, usually for excessive
absenteeism) would not be very good at raising her child. I was wrong.
Pregnancy somehow caused her to become friends with her parents about
whom she had said so many hostile things. Her parents let her live at
home and offered to babysit on evenings when she was in school, so she
passed her high school equivalency exam and went to college at night.
After a couple of years, she got a job that let her pay for her own home
AND daycare. She worked the way up the career ladder at that job and
bought a house. Her kid grew up just fine.

My point is, even tho' it sounds sentimental, sometimes it does happen
that when an irresponsible (but not drug addicted) person suddenly has
to take responsibility for a child, they somehow BECOME responsible. I'm
sure it would have worked that way for James, and maybe it would have
worked that way for Sirius if Azkaban hadn't interfered. Now Sirius has
to take responsibility for a premature adult, not a baby. More of an
older brother than a father. Does that mean I have to actually read
David Eggars's book?

Amanda wrote:
>  maybe I'm not attracted to Sirius at this point in time because I
> *don't* think he'd be a good parent, and that's my modus
> operandi at the moment.

If that were the reason, you WOULD fancy Remus. How does your hypothesis
sit with your fondness for Snape? He WOULD be a BAD parent, turning his
vicious tongue, perfection and endless anger against the children. But
he also would do EVERYTHING that he perceives to be his duty -- there
would be no falling asleep while supposed to be babysitting from
Severus.

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> I think [Sirius] also must have had genuine faith that someday he'd
get out,

But Dementors EAT faith.
Dementors are major depression (except that even major depression
doesn't cause victims to become eternally lost in psychotic
hallucinations, nor cause them to simply waste away to death -- those
are symptoms of magical mental illnesses). Both book learning and
personal experience teach me that depression destroys faith. Which is a
problem for people who are religiously inclined: if 'the dark night of
the soul' is supposed to be a test of faith, but whether one keeps faith
or gives in to despair depends on whether one take drugs to balance the
chemicals in your brain, how is that a fair test of your soul? It
appears that my conscience was raised to believe that a person should
have enough will power to overcome any mental illness by will power
alone.

Amanda wrote:
> However, when Dumbledore has Sirius reveal himself to Snape at
> the end of GoF, Snape's reaction is only one of loathing. He reacts
> to the old enemy, but not to an escaped, murdering Death Eater.

I HATE to disagree with someone who is agreeing with me, but Severus
himself is a murdering Death Eater who walked free -- a repentant one.
He need not believe Sirius innocent, merely repentant.

I'm torn between my belief that Dumbledore has told Snape about it
really being Peter who was the murderer (they're together at Hogwarts
all the time, Dumbledore wouldn't even need to send an owl) and my
feeling that Severus cannot believe that what he views as little wimp
Peter could have been such an effective murderer.

MC Crusty wrote:
> am I the only one who wonders why the collective fanfic populous
> hasn't given *Draco* the obligatory flying motorbike?

Draco is a different style of bad boy -- he's the money & high-class
one, not the r(u/a)ggedly independent one. He would be suited not by a
flying motorcycle but by a flying Lamborghini.

Margaret Dean wrote:
> =Albus= Dumbledore     =Rubeus= Hagrid      Sirius =Black=

I hadn't even noticed the triad of white, red, black, let alone
connected it to alchemy (my usual connection with white, red, black is
Robert Graves's Triple Goddess, clearly not relevant here). Thank you.

I noticed White and Red, but didn't have an interpretation for it. They
are on the same side, so it is not the colors of the two sides of Chess.
It might be the white skinned indoor person and red skinned outdoor
person (which Ancient Egyptian art used as a cliche to show women as
white and men as red). Speaking of Latinate color names, one of the
authors (he of the curse book) had the personal name Veridian, but we
have yet to see a Sapphirus.

As for Dumbledore's name in particular, I agree with what so many others
have said about 'albus' meaning 'white' having a secondary meaning of
'pure' and virtuous, and I also remain convinced that it has something
to do with Albion (a poetic name for the island of Britain that I
believe to be derived from the color of the White Clilffs of Dover).

Speaking of purity,
Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> Does the above [Firenze quote in re killing Unicorns] apply to
Voldemort
> using Harry's blood?  Is he now cursed, as a result of slaying
something
> pure and defenseless (Lilly) and then taking blood through which
Lilly's
> love flows?

L-i-l-y like the flower.
Kimberly Moon (Hogwarts '98) already wrote her theory about Firenze's
unicorn quote applying to Voldemort  --  that V had tried to kill
something 'pure and defenseless' (Harry as an innocent baby -- altho' I
have my doubts how pure and how defenseless a baby is by age 1.5 years)
and he did it only "to save [him]self" -- he may have killed other
babies, but that was for fun not because of the prophecy. Moongirl
suggested that it was Lily's love that kept Harry from being killed by V
but it was the unicorn effect that caused V to lose his powers.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 05:18:20 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 05:18:20 -0000
Subject: JKR's play on words, other than the spells/charms
In-Reply-To: <F57ZCHusMjQHtMFauky00016996@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <97sj6s+j6sa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13511

Morsus Crustum wrote:
"And then there's my therory....you all read *way* too much into half 
of this stuff. It's rather like the notion (that some people swear 
by) that "Hermione" has something to do with "Hermy" from Rudolph the 
Red Nosed Reindeer...because he wanted to be a dentist, and 
Hermione's parents are. Can we say "out on a limb"? I think we can!"


--But thats what this list if for isn't it? I mean sure we probably 
"read *way* too much" into the books, but I for one think it's fun! 
Not to make you mad or anything but that is the whole point of 
literary discussion. (Kinda like that rhinoceros reference that 
supposedly had something to do with Ionesco...)

Scott




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 05:23:17 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 05:23:17 -0000
Subject: Thoughts and questions on wands
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193521.03a20100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <97sjg5+clbb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13512

Dave wrote:

> And an order of magnitude more scary, if the rumors are true that
> Harry will be expelled in Book 5 (and his precious, Voldy-fighting
> wand snapped in two??)!!

Whence these rumors?  Are these Jo-hint-originated rumors or 
fans-stirring-the-pot rumors?
 
> Personally, though, I'm not convinced they really break wands in
> in two... Why does Hagrid's seem to work well (for growing
> pumpkins and putting curly tails on bullying gits, anyway)?

Spellotape?  I think they really do.  Hagrid and Ollivander 
mention it, independently--my sense was that this is the standard way 
of demonstrating a wizard's expulsion from magic-making.

But if Harry's remains uniquely suited to duelling Voldemort, 
Dumbledore won't break it, even if Harry does get expelled (perish the 
thought . . . the "character" I'm most in love with is Hogwarts 
itself.  I can't imagine reading the books if I don't get to live 
there while I do.)

> >(Amy wrote) Maybe Fawkes could be persuaded to donate a magical 
army's worth of
> >feathers--hence the name, "The Order of the Phoenix"?
> 
> (Dave) Not a bad idea... Maybe a spare Fawkes-wand will be part of 
the
> Hogwarts uniform next year.

Nah, you don't want a bunch of Slytherins or other DE-bound people to 
have them.  They'll have to be given out very carefully . . .

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
  "Don't you call me an idiot!" said Neville.  "I don't think
you should be breaking any more rules!  And you were the one
who told me to stand up to people!"
  "Yes, but not to *us*," said Ron in exasperation.
                            -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 05:29:49 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 05:29:49 -0000
Subject: Harry's Scar
In-Reply-To: <000c01c0a45d$d5e76780$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <97sjsd+mr4s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13513

Rebecca Boswell wrote:
"<snip?>
Am I being paranoid, or do you get the sense they're teasing us?  I
can just see the editor now, deciding to cut an otherwise perfect shot
out of the trailer because it shows The Scar and we aren't supposed to
see it yet!
Or maybe they've decided to make Harry scarless.  I mean,
it's not that central to the plot, right?  (evil screenwriter's laugh)
<un-snip>

Nooo, Harry's scar is very essential!  The scar is the aftermath of 
the curse that changed Harry's life, and it is obvious the scar has 
more meaning than it's current, if the last word of the seventh book 
(a well known rumour) *is* scar.  Plus, if it's not there, I know for 
a fact that JKR> would have a royal fit as well as all of us potter-
maniacs.  :-)"

--When you think about it though a scar isn't really that obvious. In 
fact they are usually, erm...(examining my own) a glossy type of pink 
colour. A scar WOULDN'T show up that well on film. Perhaps they plan 
to digitally enhance it during post production editing...

BTW, whilst we're being nit-picky Dans eyes could be greener too.

Scott




From vderark at bccs.org  Sun Mar  4 05:33:19 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 05:33:19 -0000
Subject: about those Evans girls' names
Message-ID: <97sk30+vfhr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13514

My wife just made an interesting observation. She pointed out, when I 
mentioned that Lily and Petunia's names were both flowers, that 
Malfoy's mother's name is ALSO a flower (with a letter or two 
changed). Now wouldn't it be interesting if Narcissa Malfoy's maiden 
name was also Evans...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which includes a link to Ellie's fabulous "What's In A Name" site on 
both it's Resources page and on its Word Sources page
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 05:39:41 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 05:39:41 -0000
Subject: Sirius - Harry's freedom in GoF
In-Reply-To: <97rs7v+3pvv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97sket+8au7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13515

Rita wrote:

> when Dumbledore sent Sirius to alert the old gang, it 
> was one year after Dumbledore had learned of Sirius's innocence. I 
> expect that one year is enough time for Dumbledore to have spread 
the 
> word of Sirius's innocence and Peter's guilt, either to the selected 
> few who would trust his word more than Fudge's, or to everyone and 
> damn the consequence of being thought loony by most Daily Prophet 
> readers.

I wondered about this question vis-a-vis Harry's freedom in GoF.  As 
far as the teachers know, the situation is unchanged from PoA:  Sirius 
Black is still on the loose, still a mad murderer, and still after 
Harry.  Yet Harry is allowed to go to Hogsmeade, teachers aren't 
escorting him around the school, etc.

I think, therefore, that it must be the case that Dumbledore *has* 
told some people, if not the whole story, then just "don't worry, 
Harry's safe" and/or "don't worry, Sirius Black isn't really a 
killer."  But the MOM doesn't know/believe it, or else Sirius wouldn't 
have to be in hiding.  In PoA, in the hospital wing, Dumbledore tells 
Harry and Hermione that with Peter gone, no one will believe Sirius is 
innocent.  This seems unchanged; only those who trust Dumbledore's 
judgment absolutely will believe the story (or, as in Ron's case, 
those who trust Harry and Hermione). 

And it makes sense that Sirius will have to go to Remus first and then 
Remus will have to be the ambassador to most of "the old crowd."  (The 
Weasleys can help, now that Molly has been filled in.)  I'm really 
curious (and nervous) about how things will unfold for Sirius.  Right 
now everyone is gunning for him:  the Ministry AND the Death Eaters.  

Amy Z

---------------------------------------
 If only the hat had mentioned a house 
 for people who felt a bit queasy, 
 that would have been the one for him.
     --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 05:43:06 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:43:06 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] about those Evans girls' names
Message-ID: <F2792DWQiagZjxYImYU000040cb@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13516



<My wife just made an interesting observation. She pointed out, when I
mentioned that Lily and Petunia's names were both flowers, that
Malfoy's mother's name is ALSO a flower (with a letter or two
changed). Now wouldn't it be interesting if Narcissa Malfoy's maiden
name was also Evans...>

*blanch* But that would mean that Draco and Harry were realated, and then 
D/H slash theory would be relinquished to the very un-squicky. Can't a 
slasher dream, man?

*wanders away*


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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 06:03:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 06:03:25 -0000
Subject: JKR's plays on words
In-Reply-To: <3AA1B3E6.8E70E069@texas.net>
Message-ID: <97slrd+61ei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13517

Amanda wrote:

> My favorite illustration of this is the lucky gambler, who just 
seems to
> win a lot, or (for you gamers out there), the nights you're playing 
and
> the dice seem to know what's going on--the high rolls make sense, 
the
> low rolls make sense, and it all comes together so well that you're
> *there.* That is what JKR has, that ability to write so that it all
> comes together. Perhaps her subconscious just percolates better than
> most.
> 

Basketball players call it "the zone," and when they're in the zone, 
their teammates know to get them the ball and get the hell out of the 
way because they just can't miss.  (Can you tell I went to a Celtics 
game the other night?  Swish!  Pierce for two!)

But it's born of hard work, and the same is true for good writing; I 
think JKR knows the cultural background because she pays attention to 
it, reads obsessively, etc.  And we know from interviews that she 
loves funny words and unusual names and collects them.  I *love* 
Paula's color-names observation, and I wouldn't be surprised if JKR 
was completely aware of these meanings.  It may seem obscure to some, 
but to people who find etymology interesting, it's second nature to 
look up and remember the meanings of names.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
Snape made them all nervous, breathing down
their necks while they tried to remember 
how to make a Forgetfulness potion.
             -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar  4 06:28:41 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 06:28:41 -0000
Subject: about those Evans girls' names
In-Reply-To: <97sk30+vfhr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97snap+e6ed@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13518

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> I mentioned that Lily and Petunia's names were both flowers, 
> Malfoy's mother's name is ALSO a flower 

Pansy Parkinson's name is also a flower, Poppy Pomfrey's name is 
also a flower, Lavender Brown's name is also a flower (a little 
flower which gave its name to a color), there are probably others 
named after flowers whom I don't recall just now.

I think that Petunia and Narcissa are both blonde and thin and 
snotty. Petunia named for being Petulant or at least Petty, Narcissa 
named for being Narcissistic (an argument against my theory that she 
loves her evil husband and her pet of a son). 

We were told that Narcissa would be attractive except for her facial 
expression as if she smelled dung. I think Petunia is supposed to 
would be attractive if it weren't for her snoopy long neck and long 
nose. I could easily believe that Petunia and Narcissa were sisters
IF I could believe that Petunia is a Pureblood witch -- I CANNOT 
believe that Lucius Malfoy would marry a Muggle, Muggleborn, or 
Halfblood. 

Lily has dark-red hair, not blonde, and a sweet personality (the 
sweet personality is my opinion, not proven by canon). Perhaps she 
isn't really related to Petunia. 

Could Petunia have been a Squib who was placed with a Muggle family 
because having a Squib offspring was such a disgrace to a proud 
Pureblood family? A Muggle family named Evans, who somehow already 
knew enough about the wizarding world to be thrilled when they found 
out that their real daughter was a witch? If Petunia had confused 
memories that, when she was two or three or four years old, her real 
parents had given her away for not being magic, that would go a long 
way to explain her hatred of magic.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 06:32:37 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 06:32:37 -0000
Subject: Harry's scar/eyes - Names
Message-ID: <97sni5+83f1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13519

> Am I being paranoid, or do you get the sense they're teasing us?  I
> can just see the editor now, deciding to cut an otherwise perfect 
shot
> out of the trailer because it shows The Scar and we aren't supposed 
to
> see it yet!
> Or maybe they've decided to make Harry scarless.  I mean,
> it's not that central to the plot, right?  (evil screenwriter's 
laugh)

The above was me, and I was being sarcastic!!  Drat, I need an irony 
marker.  Maybe a big "I" before and after statements like "it's not 
that central to the plot." 

Scott wrote:

> --When you think about it though a scar isn't really that obvious. 
In 
> fact they are usually, erm...(examining my own) a glossy type of 
pink 
> colour. A scar WOULDN'T show up that well on film. Perhaps they plan 
> to digitally enhance it during post production editing...

This is true.  On most of the covers they're red, but in real life 
it's not easy to see a scar (and Harry's is a thin one, PS/SS ch 2) 
unless you're quite close to the person.  I have no doubt we'll be 
able to see it just fine once we see the whole movie.  Harry is 
described as having bangs (maybe he's changed his hairstyle by GF, 
since everyone seems to notice his scar?), so if the filmmakers stuck 
to canon 100%, it would be covered up a lot of the time.  We know it's 
there!

> 
> BTW, whilst we're being nit-picky Dans eyes could be greener too.

I'm hoping that they are, and that the color just isn't coming through 
well on my Quicktime.  IMO, he really needs to have strikingly green 
eyes, not greenish like you see on lots of people, but *bright green.* 
 It's got to be easier to do this with contacts than with digital 
enhancement.  The pic that gets run a lot, one of the few in which you 
can really see the color of his eyes (the one where he's leaning 
against a pillar), seems to be a publicity still of the actor, not an 
in-character shot, so I'm not going to fret about the fact that his 
eyes aren't green there.

While we're on flower names (thanks, Steve's wife, for pointing out 
Narcissa, but I like D/Ha so I'm with Morsus--let's not make Draco and 
Harry related):  don't forget Pansy and Lavender.

Durmstrang is a sort of Spoonerism of Sturm und Drang, "storm and 
stress" (hence turmoil; also the name of a German literary movement).

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
  The snake jerked its head toward Uncle Vernon
and Dudley, then raised its eyes to the ceiling.  
It gave Harry a look that said quite plainly:
  "*I get that all the time*."
                -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 06:55:36 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 00:55:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Yes!!! Snape!!...and Draco
Message-ID: <F104Wecm9t0CI76rOJh00004005@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13520


>hehe, Cassie, I already have it paused on the bit and I figured otu the 
>scene, it's from when Draco first meets Harry as he's actually looking nice 
>(not in the sense of looking handsome though he is that)
>
>
>Saitaina
>

Actually, it has to be a confronttion scene, see Ron's red hair.

Stephanie
Who has many trailer thoughts yet to come(i had like 400 emails to go 
through, dang being sick)

_________________________________________________________________
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From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar  4 07:23:44 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 01:23:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's play on words, other than the spells/charms
References: <11.108e05ec.27d309df@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005201c0a47c$0f612aa0$1814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13521




  In a message dated 03/03/2001 9:58:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
  margdean at erols.com writes:

  << rguably the three adults closest to Harry at this point.

  There are three "stages" in the alchemical process (and we =know=
  JKR has researched alchemy to a degree -- Nicolas Flamel was a
  real person, and of course the Philosopher's Stone is the stated
  goal of alchemy) called the albedo (white), rubedo (red) and
  nigredo (black).

  =Can= this be coincidental?  Somehow I doubt it.
    >>

  AH HA!  I *knew* there was something to Dumbledore's and Hagrid's names, I 
  just couldn't put my finger on it!  Thanks for the infor!

  Cheers,
  Paula
  Gryffindor
  These replies are just mind boggling, to say the least. I really feel sorry for all of the people who have read HP and upon closing the books, are left only to their own thoughts and interpretations. 
  Doreen





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From msl at fc.net  Sun Mar  4 07:28:24 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 07:28:24 -0000
Subject: Character Summary - Sirius (is sexy) Black
In-Reply-To: <014701c0a41a$f2516760$575dd63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97sqqo+bmrn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13522

> 
> 1. How did he survive with his brain intact in Azkaban all those 
> years?

I imagine that Sirius is a good existentialist & figured out a way to 
use his innate psychological freedom to react to bad circustances in 
a productive way.  Which is not to say that he is unscarred or 
unaffected, but he must have found a way to transcend the trap of 
assuming, "It's my willpower vs. the power of the dementors."  I 
think that most people in Azkaban try to survive on sheer willpower 
alone, which is why they crumble as soon as their strength fails.  
(Of course, having vast resevoirs of will power wouldn't hurt either.)

> 2. Do you think volatility is a character trait or a symptom?

A little of both.  I imagine that Sirius was still rather a wild guy 
at the time of the murder of James & Lilly--still enjoying his 
bachelorhood, riding around on flying motorcycles, etc.  But 
those "unstable" traits would be emphasized right after escaping from 
Azkaban, especially if he went from Azkaban straight to living in the 
wilderness.

> 3. Would he really make a good parent to Harry or would that 
> relationship falter if it was too close (so far Sirius has been 
> there for advice but hasn't had to play an authority figure to 
> Harry yet)?

I think Sirius would do a fine job.  1) He's humble enough about his 
relationship to Harry that he wouldn't put on Snapish or Dursleyesque 
airs.  2) Harry is a pretty mature boy with lots of serious things to 
preoccupy his mind, so he's probably not going to provide the kinds 
of headaches one associates with stereotypical "wild-child" 
teenagers.  3) Harry's a teenager, not an infant, so he won't require 
round-the-clock care, something Sirius might not be suited to at all 
at this point.

> 4.  Why do a large part of the HP fandom think he's sexy (besides 
> the fact that JKR said so...actually when asked if he was supposed 
> to be dead sexy, JKR said yes.)?  What is it about his personality 
> that is or is not attractive?

In my mind's eye, Sirius looks like a rather dishevelled (sp?) 
Gabriel Byrne or even the young Harrison Ford--a tall, dark, lean, 
rawboned kind of guy.  With deep, dark, haunted eyes.  He seems to be 
a straightforward, no-nonsense kind of fellow, the sort of person who 
wouldn't fiddle-faddle around with you...rakish, romantic, 
adventurous, but not trifling or clingy.  What's not to like?

Marvin Long
Austin, Texas




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 07:34:18 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 07:34:18 -0000
Subject: JKR's play on words, other than the spells/charms
In-Reply-To: <97sj6s+j6sa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97sr5q+nreu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13523

Scott said:

> --But thats what this list if for isn't it? I mean sure we probably 
> "read *way* too much" into the books, but I for one think it's fun! 
> Not to make you mad or anything but that is the whole point of 
> literary discussion. (Kinda like that rhinoceros reference that 
> supposedly had something to do with Ionesco...)

Oh PLEASE, let's not talk about that one again.  I was the one who 
brought up the rhino-allusion originally, and let me just tell you, I 
got very sick of the "you're reading WAY too much into this - it's 
just ridiculous" posts/emails that just seeing a reference to it 
raises my blood pressure.

;)

Jen (who subconciously wants more credit for such an astute 
observation - and further Hermione-izes herself in her quasi-.sigs)




From msl at fc.net  Sun Mar  4 07:46:27 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 07:46:27 -0000
Subject: Death Eaters
In-Reply-To: <97rba3+vsu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97srsj+f9tv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13524

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> After 
> all, if a person supports total evil, how can we say of her that 
> she is sincere? For one, we can't understand it (I hope), and 
> secondly, sincerity is a good quality so an evil person can't be 
> sincere. I don't think we should disbelieve the Death Eaters' 
> sincerity in their support of Voldemort (obviously some may have 
> ulterior motives too). 

But I think we need to consider *which* Death Eaters and *when.*  
Crouch Jr. is an excellent example of a virtuous follower of a wicked 
path, and I'm sure that many who died or went to Azkaban also fit the 
bill.  For the remaining Death Eaters, I think they've proven that 
they feel discretion is the better part of valour.

I think that the fact that the remaining DEs felt safe to "play" with 
muggles at the World Cup implies that for the most part they like 
Voldy's anti-muggle, anti-mudblood ideology but feel happier not 
having to deal with the danger of following Voldemort personally.    
A good analogy might be serving as an Imperial officer in the Star 
Wars universe:  you might approve of a fascist, human-only 
government, but god help you if you're obliged to work with Darth 
Vader or the Emperor directly.

(Which is not to say that these remaining DEs are incapable of 
courage or loyalty; just that they're the types who are calculating 
enough to prefer other people to take the kinds of risks which demand 
the exercise of those virtues.)

> I personally prefer (in fiction!) the darker and more 
> incomprehensible motivation - attraction to evil. People who are 
> not strong enough to be evil by themselves join Voldemort because 
> he makes it possible for them (because he is powerful). 

Not just Death Eaters, but Death Groupies, eh?  :-)  That's a really 
interesting point.  Maybe even the attraction to evil as such isn't 
required, just the desire to be Great, or to be associated with the 
Great, regardless of morals.  (Seems to describe Pettigrew, anyway.)

Marvin Long
Austin, Texas




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Mar  4 07:53:02 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 07:53:02 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Comments on 'over-analysis'  (was Re: JKR's play on words etc...)
References: <97sr5q+nreu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01ce01c0a480$2482e0a0$9c3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 13525

Crustum the Clown wrote:

<<And then there's my therory....you all read *way* too much into half of
this stuff.>>

Scott responded:

<<--But thats what this list if for isn't it? I mean sure we probably  "read
*way* too much" into the books, but I for one think it's fun!  Not to make
you mad or anything but that is the whole point of  literary discussion.
(Kinda like that rhinoceros reference that
 supposedly had something to do with Ionesco...)>>

Jen said:

<<Oh PLEASE, let's not talk about that one again.  I was the one who brought
up the rhino-allusion originally, and let me just tell you, I got very sick
of the "you're reading WAY too much into this - it's just ridiculous"
posts/emails that just seeing a reference to it raises my blood pressure.>>


Yes, let's leave the scab over that wound, shall we?

Jen is referring to an old thread that ended up causing some bad feeling on
the list.  So, in case anyone else was planning to comment on whether or not
some of us 'over-analyse' the Harry Potter books, I'll say, quite firmly,
don't even go there!  It may start off in good humour, but we could easily
end up with elevated blood pressure all round.

Thanks, everyone.

(Yes, I am wearing the moderator hairnet... and bunny slippers.  Wanna make
something of it?)

Neil

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

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From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Sun Mar  4 10:08:03 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:08:03 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FILM/MOVIE/FLICK - request for post identification
Message-ID: <01C0A4E6.D591A820.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 13526

Dear Everyone

Please put FILM or MOVIE or FLICK or something at the front of your post if 
that's what it's about (FLICK has that appropriate english 50's feel to me <g>)

I'd like to be able to weed out more effectively the posts I don't want to know 
about.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

storm, was a top 30 poster, now the unseen beast of the bottom of the lake  :_(

(thank you)




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sun Mar  4 10:14:41 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:14:41 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Summary - Sirius (is sexy) Black
In-Reply-To: <014701c0a41a$f2516760$575dd63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKIEGKCAAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 13527

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carole Estes [mailto:lrcjestes at earthlink.net]
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Character Summary - Sirius (is sexy) Black

> 1. How did he survive with his brain intact in Azkaban all those years?

I know that I have said this before, but I think that it was his depression
that saved him from the Dementors. There wasn't anything they could
feed on, so his brain wasn't affected like that of other prisoners who might
still have had happy thoughts. His ability to transform might have
helped, too, because his emotions are less complex when he takes
his animagus form, but the main reason that he survived with his
brain intact was his depression IMHO.

> 2. Do you think volatility is a character trait or a symptom?

Well, I have explained in another message a few weeks ago why I
think that it is nearly impossible that he doesn't have PTSD, so I repeat
that I believe that his volatility is a symptom and not a character
trait.

> 3. Would he really make a good parent to Harry or would that relationship
> falter if it was too close (so far Sirius has been there for advice but
> hasn't had to play an authority figure to Harry yet)?

I truly believe that he would make a good parent. Whoever he was
before Azkaban, this experience has very likely matured him a good
deal, and a close relationship to Harry will help him to heal himself
emotionally.

> 4.  Why do a large part of the HP fandom think he's sexy (besides the fact
> that JKR said so...actually when asked if he was supposed to be dead sexy,
> JKR said yes.)?  What is it about his personality that is or is not
> attractive?

I am one of those who think he is dead sexy, but I confess that it is the
older Sirius I find attractive. Maybe it's an age thing (I am 41), but since
I believe that he might have been a rather carefree womanizer before
Azkaban, it's definitely the post-Azkaban Sirius who is attractive to me.
Maybe it's also his vulnerability after all he's been through. As I said
above, I don't think his volatility is a character trait, and in GoF he
definitely showed a lot of common sense in the letters he wrote to
Harry. He has shown that he is capable of taking his responsibility
for Harry, even though he cannot be with him, but that's not his
fault. And I think that I would find a good-looking guy under the
matted hair, once cleaned up and after a few good meals he should
be quite irresistible. <grin>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Morsus Crustum [mailto:slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com]

> Sirius Black strikes me as a very good man, but a very irresponsible one.
> *dodges tomatoes* Face it. He was a Marauder. I don't think that James could
> have succeeded at single parenting. If Sirius adopted Harry, I would hope he
> would have found a wife *coughCordeliacough* to balance things out. In the
> cannon situation we have, I think that he would be infinitely better than
> the Dursleys. In short: Sirius is great, but I doubt fatherhood would sit
> well with him.

Don't worry, I'll leave the tomatoes in the kitchen. ;) But I have to disagree
here. We are no longer talking about the 16year old boy who played a
rather dangerous prank on Snape but about a man of about 40 (no, I don't
believe that James and Lily died at 21) who has had a rather unpleasant
adult life that has certainly left its traces. The carefree Marauder is long
since
gone, and I cannot subscribe to the theory that he is a very irresponsible
man. His whole behavior in GoF showed me the contrary, but maybe my
British edition reads differently. <grin> We didn't see him do anything
rash, he has taken additional measures to ensure his own security, and
the advices he gives Harry look like those of a responsible parent to me.

> Sirius is a good bad guy. Seriously. I think that women, in general, tend to
> go for rugged "bad guy" types (okay, all Alan Rickman fans raise their
> hands....now all Snape fans....Draco? Point made).

Well, I have to disagree another time. I don't go for rugged bad guy types
nor for biker guys in leather. I don't like Snape, and I think that canon Draco
is an insufferable little git. I *do* read fanfic, but it couldn't change my
mind
about Draco. That doesn't mean I don't believe he is redeemable, but in
canon that has yet to happen. So nothing of the above explains why
I find Sirius attractive. I think that once recovered, he will be a responsible,
caring man, and that's what I like about him.

Monika


Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sun Mar  4 12:56:09 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 12:56:09 -0000
Subject: Character Summary - Sirius (is sexy) Black
In-Reply-To: <014701c0a41a$f2516760$575dd63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97te19+kh3o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13528

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:

(Character study snipped)
Excellent character study, Carole!


> > Okay so now for the questions:
> 
> 1. How did he survive with his brain intact in Azkaban all those 
years?

As he said in PoA, he really didn't know how he did it.  He knew he 
was innocent, though.  Maybe he ran the scene with Pettigrew over and 
over in his head.  I think when times got rough, he probably went 
into Snuffles mode to help relieve the pressure. 
> 
> 2. Do you think volatility is a character trait or a symptom?

I think it's more of a symptom.  He's just recognised Peter, knows 
who he is & knows he's with Harry at Hogwarts.  I think he's 
*desparate* to protect Harry in any way he can.  
> 
> 3. Would he really make a good parent to Harry or would that 
relationship
> falter if it was too close (so far Sirius has been there for advice 
but
> hasn't had to play an authority figure to Harry yet)?

I think he'd be marvelous.  Protective, but willing to let Harry 
learn from his own mistakes (as long as they had *nothing* to do with 
Voldy).  I think we've seen what he would be like as an authority 
figure when he tells Harry to get through the Triwizard Tournament & 
*then* worry about all the other stuff (in GoF).
> 
> 4.  Why do a large part of the HP fandom think he's sexy (besides 
the fact
> that JKR said so...actually when asked if he was supposed to be 
dead sexy,
> JKR said yes.)?  What is it about his personality that is or is not
> attractive?

He's fiercly loyal to those he loves.  I mean, in his eyes, *nobody* 
messes with Harry or Remus.  That, to me, is immensely attractive 
(I'm the same way, btw).  I get the feeling that he lives life by his 
own set of rules & that it's in some cases just a higher moral 
standard than what is required.  Plus, he's dark-haired.  I agree 
with (I believe it was) Marvin, who described him as rugged.  That's 
my picture of him.  Rugged, independent, loyal...
> 
> 5. With apologies to Monika, who just wrote to me and asked this 
question
> this morning and I thought it was so good I included it....don't 
you think
> it's a bit weird that Dumbledore sends Sirius to alert everyone? 
What will
> they think when the escaped murderer knocks at their door?

I think Dumbledore's probably spread the word quietly that Sirius was 
wrongly imprisoned.  The 'old crowd' seems to trust Dumbledore more 
than they do the Ministry, so I don't think there will be many 
problems.  

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From ender_w at msn.com  Sun Mar  4 13:35:36 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 08:35:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius
References: <F251z6Np3XdflFMYcsQ0000192f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c0a4af$ffce0de0$72421e3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 13529


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Morsus Crustum 
  To: HPforgrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 9:35 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius

  >3. Would he really make a good parent to Harry or would that relationship
  >falter if it was too close (so far Sirius has been there for advice but
  >hasn't had to play an authority figure to Harry yet)?

  >>Sirius Black strikes me as a very good man, but a very irresponsible one. 
  >>*dodges tomatoes* Face it. He was a Marauder. I don't think that James could 
  >>have succeeded at single parenting. 


  If everyone who was ever irresponsible in their youth was disqualified from being a good parent...then there would be almost no good parents.  Many young men (and women)are irresponsible, mischievous, and rash in their school-days.  That doesn't mean they can't mature into good parent material.  However, I don't think Sirius would make a good parent to Harry, not because of his rule-breaking past, but because he's had very little experience in the adult world (most of his adulthood has been spent in Azkaban), and parenting an adolescent is difficult enough even for those who have raised them from infants.  To suddenly take on the job of parenting a thirteen year old would be difficult for any single man...or woman.

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar  4 13:39:10 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 07:39:10 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius
References: <F251z6Np3XdflFMYcsQ0000192f@hotmail.com> <000e01c0a4af$ffce0de0$72421e3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <002901c0a4b0$7f4372e0$7214a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13530

I dunno ... teenagers, like Dementors, can sometimes suck the happiness right out of a place.
Doreen, whose fifteen year old is presently acting like a Dementor... and she feels that a weekend at Azkaban might be a more pleasant place to be...
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ender_w 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 7:35 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Sirius



    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Morsus Crustum 
    To: HPforgrownups at yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 9:35 PM
    Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius

    >3. Would he really make a good parent to Harry or would that relationship
    >falter if it was too close (so far Sirius has been there for advice but
    >hasn't had to play an authority figure to Harry yet)?

    >>Sirius Black strikes me as a very good man, but a very irresponsible one. 
    >>*dodges tomatoes* Face it. He was a Marauder. I don't think that James could 
    >>have succeeded at single parenting. 


    If everyone who was ever irresponsible in their youth was disqualified from being a good parent...then there would be almost no good parents.  Many young men (and women)are irresponsible, mischievous, and rash in their school-days.  That doesn't mean they can't mature into good parent material.  However, I don't think Sirius would make a good parent to Harry, not because of his rule-breaking past, but because he's had very little experience in the adult world (most of his adulthood has been spent in Azkaban), and parenting an adolescent is difficult enough even for those who have raised them from infants.  To suddenly take on the job of parenting a thirteen year old would be difficult for any single man...or woman.

    ender


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From ender_w at msn.com  Sun Mar  4 13:46:09 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 08:46:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts and questions on wands
References: <97sjg5+clbb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002701c0a4b1$78b701c0$72421e3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 13531


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amy Z 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 12:23 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts and questions on wands


  Dave wrote:

  > Personally, though, I'm not convinced they really break wands in
  > in two... Why does Hagrid's seem to work well (for growing
  > pumpkins and putting curly tails on bullying gits, anyway)?

  >>Spellotape?  I think they really do.  Hagrid and Ollivander mention it, independently--my sense was that this is the >>standard way 
  >>of demonstrating a wizard's expulsion from magic-making.

  And we all remember how well spellotape worked on Ron's broken wand.  I just reread CoS and it left me wondering why Ron's broken, spellotaped wand is always backfiring, yet Hagrid's supposedly fractured wand seems to work through his umbrella just fine...though he did have a little trouble when he tried to turn dudley into a pig.

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 13:53:03 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 05:53:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] about those Evans girls' names
In-Reply-To: <97sk30+vfhr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010304135303.28111.qmail@web5204.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13532


--- Steve Vander Ark <vderark at bccs.org> wrote:
> Now wouldn't it be interesting if Narcissa
> Malfoy's maiden 
> name was also Evans...
> 
And then what do you do with Poppy Pomfrey and Pnasy
Parkinson?

Anne

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From prince_galrion at yahoo.no  Sun Mar  4 13:54:13 2001
From: prince_galrion at yahoo.no (prince_galrion at yahoo.no)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 13:54:13 -0000
Subject: Thoughts and questions on wands
In-Reply-To: <002701c0a4b1$78b701c0$72421e3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <97the5+ho6u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13534

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
[snip]
>   And we all remember how well spellotape worked on Ron's broken 
> wand.  I just reread CoS and it left me wondering why Ron's broken, 
> spellotaped wand is always backfiring, yet Hagrid's supposedly 
> fractured wand seems to work through his umbrella just 
> fine...though he did have a little trouble when he tried to turn 
> dudley into a pig.

But Ron's wand was not Ron's match - it was a second- or third-hand 
wand (probably third-hand, I believe).  If Hagrid's wand was the 
match for Hagrid, it might work better (not to mention that he may 
have had some aid from Dumbledore for a more professional repair-job).




From joannec at lisp.com.au  Sun Mar  4 14:31:20 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 01:31:20 +1100
Subject: Harry's hair/how I got into HP
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010305013120.007ca360@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 13535

>>I was thinking dark brown, and I get it from the picture on the 
>>cover of GoF. It looks brown there.
>
>Forget the grinning imbecile on the cover, he's not Harry Potter, 
>he's an imposter and not a very good one either. Rowling had
>nothing to do with the cover or the brainless looking jerk
>depicted there.     

Do I take it you don't like the cover, then? *grin*

I have always taken the covers of books with a grain of salt, ever since
finding out that it was rare, if not completely unheard of, for the artist
to read the books before painting the cover (not sure if it's the same for
photographs, but one presumes so), and that they were often given no more
than the back cover/jacket blurb (also often written by someone who never
read the book, which *does* strike me as odd), but I have usually presumed
that the artists were given accurate physical descriptions (well, except
for the women who somehow manage to balloon in the bust area on some
covers), and have taken the depictions to be reasonably accurate if not
completely so.

Of course, in the case of GoF, one could argue that it was supposed to be
the effect of the dragon's fire on Harry's appearance, too.

As for the question of how I got into Harry Potter, there were a few things
that led to it. I had read a few stories that came over my slash lists (the
ones that had no spoilers in them), and my best friend who works in a
library told me that she'd read the first one and loved it. So one day I
was in front of the book display at one of the stores in the mall, and it
was Harry Potter, and I just picked up PS. The rest is history.

Joanne.



From joannec at lisp.com.au  Sun Mar  4 14:31:20 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 01:31:20 +1100
Subject: SHIPs
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010305013120.007ca360@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 13536

Zsenya wrote re Remus/Sirius:

>It's so strange really - 
>I'm not gay or bi, I don't know many people who are, but I just *feel* 
>it with R/S.  

Being gay or bi has very little to do with seeing slash relationships.
Historically (so to speak), most m/m slash writers have been straight
women. It's usually being able to, as you say, *feel* a relationship,
regardless of the gender of those involved. At least that's what it is for me.

Joanne.



From uibristol at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 14:12:06 2001
From: uibristol at yahoo.com (uibristol at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 14:12:06 -0000
Subject: Roots of Evans' Girls Names
In-Reply-To: <20010304135303.28111.qmail@web5204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <97tifm+thq7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13537

I think the roots of the names are curious...

Petunia-"Petunia "A genus of ornamental herbaceous plants (N.O. 
Solanace? or Atropace?) nearly allied to tobacco, natives of South 
America; they bear white, violet or purple, and variegated funnel-
shaped flowers. Also, a plant or flower of this" 

Lily-"any of a genus (Lilium of the family Liliaceae, the lily 
family) of erect perennial leafy-stemmed bulbous herbs that are 
native to the northern hemisphere and are widely cultivated for their 
showy flowers; broadly : any of various plants of the lily family or 
of the related amaryllis or iris families"

One is related to tobacco, while the other, though not clearly 
mentioned above, is associated with rebirth. 

and, for a little bit of overanalysis, one from north, while the 
other from the south.  polar opposites?




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 14:12:39 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 06:12:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Comments on 'over-analysis'  (was Re: JKR's play on words etc...)
In-Reply-To: <01ce01c0a480$2482e0a0$9c3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <20010304141239.18309.qmail@web210.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13538


--- Neil Ward <neilward at dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> Crustum the Clown wrote:
> 
> <<And then there's my therory....you all read *way*
> too much into half of
> this stuff.>>
> 
> Scott responded:
> 
> <<--But thats what this list if for isn't it? I mean
> sure we probably  "read
> *way* too much" into the books, but I for one think
> it's fun!  Not to make
> you mad or anything but that is the whole point of 
> literary discussion.
> (Kinda like that rhinoceros reference that
>  supposedly had something to do with Ionesco...)>>
> 
> Jen said:
> 
> <<Oh PLEASE, let's not talk about that one again.  I
> was the one who brought
> up the rhino-allusion originally, and let me just
> tell you, I got very sick
> of the "you're reading WAY too much into this - it's
> just ridiculous"
> posts/emails that just seeing a reference to it
> raises my blood pressure.>>
> 
> 
> Yes, let's leave the scab over that wound, shall we?
> 
> Jen is referring to an old thread that ended up
> causing some bad feeling on
> the list.  So, in case anyone else was planning to
> comment on whether or not
> some of us 'over-analyse' the Harry Potter books,
> I'll say, quite firmly,
> don't even go there!  It may start off in good
> humour, but we could easily
> end up with elevated blood pressure all round.
> 
> Thanks, everyone.
I agree with Neil on this, when things get out of hand
on this list it can be a very ugly thing.

Sheryll, who responded to this only so she could ask
when we get to see photos of Neil in his moderator
hairnet and bunny slippers!

> (Yes, I am wearing the moderator hairnet... and
> bunny slippers.  Wanna make
> something of it?)
> 
> Neil


=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From prince_galrion at yahoo.no  Sun Mar  4 14:16:28 2001
From: prince_galrion at yahoo.no (prince_galrion at yahoo.no)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 14:16:28 -0000
Subject: House-badges/devices
Message-ID: <97tins+sphg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13539

If you go to 

http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery22.htm

you can see the house-badges/devices designed for the school-uniforms 
in the movie.  Now, if some-one can lend me a larg sail-ship and some 
cable-lengths of rope, so I can properly keelhaul the artist(s) who 
was (were) responsible for this mess (after frocefeeding him/her 
lutefisk, smalahove and codfish-tongue), I would feel much better.  

As far as the devices go (they are not crests, but they do have 
crests, barely visible on top of the helms), we have already seen the 
Gryffindor device.  I still don't like it - the lion is facing the 
wrong way, for goodness' sake.  The crest may be a lion-head, but it 
is very difficult to see clearly.

The Ravenclaw device, for some reason, does not show a bronze eagle 
displayed - it shows a black crow perched on a twig (at least it 
looks more like a crow, or sparrow, or magpie, than a rawen or 
eagle).  At least most of the field is blue (though the part below 
the twig, for some odd reason, is white).  I will expect the crest is 
supposed to have some connection with the birdie on the chield, but 
it looks more like a horse's head in profile.  

The Hufflepuff-device shows a grey and black badger on a field that 
is quarterly of black and yellow.  This means that from a distance 
more than a few inches, it will be impossible to see what the device 
shows, lest you know what is supposed to be there - this problem is 
similar for the Gryffindor-badge.  The crest is a badger passant.

The Slytherin-device has been mauled to the least degree.  The field, 
which should have been green, appears black on the picture, but it 
may just be a rather dark green.  The crest is a snake.

If they spent 80 mio USD on the movie, they could at least have had 
soemone with a passing knowledge of heraldry device the badges, or 
simply stick to what was already in the books.  It is not that hard 
to do

Now, if someone could please pass the ship and the rope...




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar  4 14:34:18 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 14:34:18 -0000
Subject: House-badges/devices
In-Reply-To: <97tins+sphg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97tjpa+9a61@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13540

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., prince_galrion at y... wrote:
If you go to 
 
http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery22.htm
<big snip>
 
 Now, if someone could please pass the ship and the rope...

I would gladly hand you the ship and the rope. I agree, they are 
crude and poorly done. 

I did notice, though, that following the link on that page to:

http://www.southwestnews.com/potter5.htm

There are two pictures of Harry from the movie. Or I think it is 
Harry. It is supposed to be Harry, anyway, but these pictures make 
him look a bit different. It's not that stand-in again, is it?

Doreen, going back to the page and having a closer look-see.




From Ellimist15 at aol.com  Sun Mar  4 15:41:22 2001
From: Ellimist15 at aol.com (Ellimist15 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:41:22 EST
Subject: about those Evans girls' names
Message-ID: <d9.11076593.27d3bc23@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13541

Steve said:

<< My wife just made an interesting observation. She pointed out, when I mentioned that Lily and Petunia's names were both flowers, that Malfoy's mother's name is ALSO a flower (with a letter or two changed). Now wouldn't it be interesting if Narcissa Malfoy's maiden name was also Evans... >>

Oh, wow. I never even thought about that! Do you mind if I add that to "What's in a Name"?

Ellie - who is really happy about the direction these conversations are going
What's In a Name?
http://www.stas.net/5/wian/



From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Mar  4 15:49:37 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 15:49:37 -0000
Subject: Harry's hair/how I got into HP
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010305013120.007ca360@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <97to6h+4mbd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13542

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Joanne Collins <joannec at l...> wrote:
> >>I was thinking dark brown, and I get it from the picture on the 
> >>cover of GoF. It looks brown there.
> >
> >Forget the grinning imbecile on the cover, he's not Harry Potter, 
> >he's an imposter and not a very good one either. Rowling had
> >nothing to do with the cover or the brainless looking jerk
> >depicted there.     
> 

Am I a big dork, then for loving the cover of GoF?  I think HP looks 
like such a cutie there!  When I was fourteen that face is exactly the 
kind of face that made me not concentrate on my schoolwork because I 
was too busy trying to get that boy to notice me!

--Je




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Mar  4 15:56:18 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 15:56:18 -0000
Subject: Over analysis
Message-ID: <97toj2+tae@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13543

KEEP IT COMING!  I love overanalyzing!  I think it is amazing that JKR 
has written these stories and we all sit around thinking, writing and 
discussing little details the way we do.
Besides, I've read some posts that I certainly would not have thought 
of on my own.

--Je




From prince_galrion at yahoo.no  Sun Mar  4 15:58:45 2001
From: prince_galrion at yahoo.no (prince_galrion at yahoo.no)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 15:58:45 -0000
Subject: FILM:  Not-Harry-pictures at Southwestnews.com (was Re: House-badges/devices)
In-Reply-To: <97tjpa+9a61@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97tonl+fn5p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13544

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
[snip]
> I did notice, though, that following the link on that page to:
> 
> http://www.southwestnews.com/potter5.htm
> 
> There are two pictures of Harry from the movie. Or I think it is 
> Harry. It is supposed to be Harry, anyway, but these pictures make 
> him look a bit different. It's not that stand-in again, is it?
> 
> Doreen, going back to the page and having a closer look-see.

I'd say stand-in.  He does not look like Daniel Radcliffe to me, 
particularly in the righthand picture.  That redhaired fellow in the 
righthand picture does not look completely right for Rupert Gint 
either.  Probably both are regular stand-ins, doing homework for 
reallife school (look at the table - that is not the kind of table 
I'd expect to find at Hogwarts).  

What is more interesting to me, however, is that the site proposes 
that it is a picture of Draco Malfoy.  Last time I checked, said 
Draco should be silver-blond and not ravenhaired, but evidently not 
all creators of sites about Harry Potter bother to read the books 
(incidentally, one fan-site posted the oddest theory that I've ever 
read - that it was Harry who, using a timeturner, had gone back in 
time to murder the Riddles).  




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Sun Mar  4 15:05:40 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 10:05:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius
References: <F251z6Np3XdflFMYcsQ0000192f@hotmail.com> <3AA1B019.404DC1B5@texas.net>
Message-ID: <000001c0a4cc$e6d24f00$4751d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13545


----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>

> My point is, maybe I'm not attracted to Sirius at this point in time
> because I *don't* think he'd be a good parent, and that's my modus
> operandi at the moment. Other moms of small children on the list? Do I
> just have no life, or do you think this holds any water? Ordinarily he's
> just my type. I raised my hand for Alan Rickman, after all....
>

Ummmmm, as being one of the other moms of 3 small kids (7,4,2) on the list,
what's my excuse for being a Sirius obsessive  ;  )  ? Maybe its the slight
difference in ages...but I certainly can't help your theory...sorry...

carole





From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Sun Mar  4 17:00:00 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:00:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Comments on 'over-analysis'  (was Re: JKR's play on words etc...)
References: <97sr5q+nreu@eGroups.com> <01ce01c0a480$2482e0a0$9c3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <000101c0a4cc$e8006ec0$4751d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13546

Ah yes, I can picture it now...  Professor Neil, dressed in his night
robe,bunny slippers, and hairnet with his reading material clutched in his
hand and his reading glasses sliding halfway down his nose....He comes to
the door of his living quarters to answer the frantic knocking by the
troubled students....

Professor Neil:  "What's all this about then?"

Student named Malodorous Brat:  "Sir, Hermione is trying to summon up that
irritating rhino into the Gryffindor hallway, again!"

Hermione: "It's not that way at all Sir!  He keeps telling me that I'm
reading too much into this storyline again!  And I said if you don't stop it
this instant, I'll be forced to put that Rhino into your subconscious mind
again.  And he said.."

Professor Neil: "Enough !  Enough, I said!!  Hermione, if I've told you
once, I've told you a thousand times, it's not polite to force large animals
into the subconscious minds of the first year students!  They wake up
screaming and wailing, and disturbing the entire House with their antics!"

Hermione:  "But you don't really believe that the words on the printed page
represent everything that's in the mind of "She Who Must Not Be Named" when
she writes this stuff!  Do you?  I mean I get such limited material to work
with here...Harry and Ron get to say and do all the fun stuff!  I'm the one
who always has to be practical.  I always have to play fair, and I have to
be the bad guy every time one of them starts to get into trouble.  I feel
like calling my agent every time I see one of those scenes in the script.
But JK...I mean "She Who Must Not Be Named" always talks me into doing it
again and again.  I swear I'll be in therapy for the rest of my life trying
to work through these repressed feelings.  I see myself as the true star of
the books.  After all, I am the smartest character in the whole series...If
it weren't for all of those boy action scenes, I'd be getting top billing.
"Hermione Granger and the Lesser Beings battle the Evil Ones"... that's what
they ought to call the next book.  But noooo..."

Professor Neil: " That's quite enough young lady!  We all have our place in
the storyline.  If you keep talking this way, you'll upset Ron and Harry,
and then how are we supposed to resolve all the love relationships that will
happen in the future. After all, fans like Penny have donated thousands of
galleons to the H/H ship fund, and JK..I mean "She Who Must Not Be Named"
has to wait for the final negotiations to be completed before awarding you
to the winner!"

Hermione: "Paaleeease stop that nonsense, would you?  Why would I be
interested in Harry or Ron, when it should be obvious to everyone that I can
create my own Brad Pitt and Fabio lookalikes to satisfy my every desire just
like every other mature witch can!  Harry's been alternating between his
Brittany Spears and Claudia Schiffer clones for months now.  Ron, of course
has Super Model Orgies every night.  I guess that's just the result of
growing up in a large family... What I'm trying to say here is that the fans
have got to stop assuming that we are only what our storyline allows us to
be!  Those silly stories that the fans write are so limiting!  I can act
better than that for goodness sake.  But what I really want to do is
direct..."

Professor Neil: " Well, I have heard about all I can stand for one night.
Put the Rhino back into the abstract closet and go back to your evening
studies.  Let the fans have their fantasies, and be thankful that "She Who
Must Not Be Named" doesn't just write for kids!  We all have to do our jobs
and read the lines, and go about our lives."

Professor Randy pokes his head out of the next door down the hall. "What's
all the racket, Neil?"

Professor Neil: "Just the same old Rhino thing!"

Professor Randy: "Well you know sometimes a Rhino is just a Rhino.  And
sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!  But a popular book series can be all
things to all people!"

Professor Neil: "Now don't you start with your crude remarks again!  We all
know how you got the name Randy after all!  I'll never understand how
Dumbledore allowed you to teach Magical Practical Jokes for Fun and Profit!
We should be teaching the classics!  Not all this common trade school fluff
for the working class!  But you did pull off one of the all time best with
that 2000 election in the United States...The way you kept changing the vote
count in Florida was hilarious!  I've never seen Dan Rather look so
embarrassed in all my life!  Too bad they ended up with that Bush
character!"

Professor Randy: " You're missing the whole point, my good man!  I really
did like Al Gore.  But without Bush in the White House, the world would
become too well ordered, and where would the fun be in that?  I plan to keep
scaring the American public with the Dick Cheney near death experiences.
Nobody is more scared that George W. about the prospect of losing the leader
of the free world.  George has no interest in listening to his Dad's friends
debate over who George should replace Dick with."

Professor Neil;  " You are truly cruel!  But I must admit that the world
would be boring without all of those Magical Practical Jokes controlling the
events of the day!  That trick you played on Ronald Reagan's memory was a
bit much.  But he did say he did not want to recall the events of
Iran-Contra in all honesty."

Professor Randy:  "I do regret that one a bit.  But keeping the Muggle World
free from the sheer boredom of logical thought controlling world affairs is
a burden that I must bear."

Professor Neil:  " Hermione back to your room.  Malodorous, get back to your
studies.  Randy, I've got to get back to my reading.  Tell Carole I loved
her seminar on Controlling the Earth's Crust Movement through Magical
Methods".

Professor Randy:  " I'll tell her tomorrow when she calls.  She and Penny
get back from Paris next week.  I kind of worry about Sirius being escort,
but I've got to trust her."

Professor Neil:  "Don't worry about it.  I spoke to Sirius about them, and
he assured me that he's not going to get involved with another threesome
like he did last time!"

Professor Randy:  " Well that's good to hear!  Goodnight Neil."

Professor Neil:  "Goodnight"

(Wow.  I have no idea where all that came from.  It all started with those
bunny slippers.)

Time to sign off.  Randy goes back to his spellwork to cause George W. to
make more gaffs in his latest speech before the public.  ;0)

Randy



----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Ward" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 2:53 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Comments on 'over-analysis' (was Re: JKR's
play on words etc...)


> Crustum the Clown wrote:
>
> <<And then there's my therory....you all read *way* too much into half of
> this stuff.>>
>
> Scott responded:
>
> <<--But thats what this list if for isn't it? I mean sure we probably
"read
> *way* too much" into the books, but I for one think it's fun!  Not to make
> you mad or anything but that is the whole point of  literary discussion.
> (Kinda like that rhinoceros reference that
>  supposedly had something to do with Ionesco...)>>
>
> Jen said:
>
> <<Oh PLEASE, let's not talk about that one again.  I was the one who
brought
> up the rhino-allusion originally, and let me just tell you, I got very
sick
> of the "you're reading WAY too much into this - it's just ridiculous"
> posts/emails that just seeing a reference to it raises my blood
pressure.>>
>
>
> Yes, let's leave the scab over that wound, shall we?
>
> Jen is referring to an old thread that ended up causing some bad feeling
on
> the list.  So, in case anyone else was planning to comment on whether or
not
> some of us 'over-analyse' the Harry Potter books, I'll say, quite firmly,
> don't even go there!  It may start off in good humour, but we could easily
> end up with elevated blood pressure all round.
>
> Thanks, everyone.
>
> (Yes, I am wearing the moderator hairnet... and bunny slippers.  Wanna
make
> something of it?)
>
> Neil
>
> _____________________________________
>
> Flying-Ford-Anglia
> Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)
>
> "Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
> was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
> of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]
>
> Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
> to do with this club:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also
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>
>





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Mar  4 16:47:09 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:47:09 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: about those Evans girls' names
References: <d9.11076593.27d3bc23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008701c0a4ca$c17cbb20$923770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 13547

Steve said:

<< My wife just made an interesting observation. She pointed out, when I
mentioned that Lily and Petunia's names were both flowers, that Malfoy's
mother's name is ALSO a flower (with a letter or two changed). Now wouldn't
it be interesting if Narcissa Malfoy's maiden name was also Evans... >>

Ellie said:

<Oh, wow. I never even thought about that! Do you mind if I add that to
"What's in a Name"?>

This has come up before, and I agree with Catlady, that JKR has used flower
names for different reasons.

The two things counting against the theory that Narcissa is related to Lily
and Petunia are:

(a)  Since Harry is identified as not being pureblood, it is most likely
that Lily was a witch in a family of Muggles, rather than Petunia being a
squib in a family of wizards (which would suggest that James Potter was of
non-wizard parentage).  Following this logic, Narcissa would have to be a
Muggle if she was Lily's 'other' sister.

(b) The Dursleys are meant to be Harry's only living relatives, which is why
he is forced to live with them.  If Narcissa is also his aunt and Petunia's
living sister, wouldn't we have heard about this?  Wouldn't the Dursleys
have tried to get Harry sent to live with the Malfoys?

Neil
________________________________________

flying_ford_anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm







From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar  4 17:38:30 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:38:30 -0600
Subject: dining hall in movie stills
Message-ID: <001b01c0a4d1$eec0b260$8e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13548

If you lighten the picture from the movie stills, in the one where they are tossing their hats into the air (which btw, is this in the book? I think not) ... in the lower right hand section, while everyone else is looking up at the hats, some redheaded boy is busy doing something else entirely. Any comments? One of the Weasley twins pulling a prank? 

Doreen, who just loves to stir things up, especially conversations


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com  Sun Mar  4 17:38:32 2001
From: ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com (Erich)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:38:32 -0500
Subject: Death-eater----Beef eaters?
Message-ID: <001d01c0a4d1$ef00c8a0$3b82d2cc@rochester.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13549

I was wondering if J.K. Rowlings borrowed death eaters from Beef eaters?
Beef eater guard the Tower of london and I believe the crown jewels.
I don't know why they're are called beef eaters. Is there anyone with this information?
Yahoo Messenger - discords_child 14456
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar  4 17:39:44 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:39:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] dining hall in movie stills
References: <001b01c0a4d1$eec0b260$8e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <002101c0a4d2$1a9f2a60$8e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13550


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Doreen 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 11:38 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] dining hall in movie stills


  If you lighten the picture from the movie stills, in the one where they are tossing their hats into the air (which btw, is this in the book? I think not) ... in the lower right hand section, while everyone else is looking up at the hats, some redheaded boy is busy doing something else entirely. Any comments? One of the Weasley twins pulling a prank? 

  Doreen, who just loves to stir things up, especially conversations
  Also, when you lighten the picture, a set of doors? shows up in the back of the room.



  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 18:11:38 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:11:38 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House-badges/devices
Message-ID: <F42KzPZ2GtBYxIwFbB700004439@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13551


<There are two pictures of Harry from the movie. Or I think it is
Harry. It is supposed to be Harry, anyway, but these pictures make
him look a bit different. It's not that stand-in again, is it?>

The Gossip Queen must jump to the occasion to tell you all that this has 
been long since debunked by the producers of SS/PS....it was a publicity 
thing on behalf of the magazine/newspaper that published it in the first 
place, and others took it and ran. It really doesn't look a thing like 
Daniel Radcliffe - it's just some kid with black hair.

Morsus, who finds the need to defend darling Daniel....


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar  4 19:16:55 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 11:16:55 -0800
Subject: Sirius Depression - Teenagers - House patches - Pictures of Characters -  Beefeater
Message-ID: <3AA294A7.91D49B84@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13552

LOL at Randy's fan-fanfic.

Monika Huebner wrote:
>  I think that it was his depression  that saved him from the
> Dementors. There wasn't anything they could feed on, so
> his brain wasn't affected like that of other prisoners who might
> still have had happy thoughts.

I don't understand why Death Eaters whose Lord was destroyed would have
happier thoughts than Sirius.

Doreen wrote:
> whose fifteen year old is presently acting like a Dementor.

I seriously suggest that you arrange to swap teenagers with another
parent who has the same problem. There is some inborn instinct for teens
and their parents to irritate each other, which is why parents
despairingly wonder how their kid is able to behave so decently to other
adults while being such a monster to them, and kids wonder despairingly
"How come all my friends think my parents are nice people?"

Christian Stubo wrote:
> the house-badges/devices designed for the school-uniforms
> in the movie.  Now, if some-one can lend me a large sail-ship and some

> cable-lengths of rope, so I can properly keelhaul the artist(s) who
> was (were) responsible for this mess (after frocefeeding him/her
> lutefisk, smalahove and codfish-tongue), I would feel much better.

I followed the link and looked at the embroideries and they are every
bit as bad as you said. I can't even SEE that there is a crest on G and
R, and the crests on H and S look like tiny blobs. Slytherin is the only
one with ANY color contrast. This is a strong argument for Hogwarts
being the only school, so there is no see to see the symbols, just to
get a general sense of the color: white for S, yellow for H, blue/dark
for R, and bronze for G. Even for that, they should have made G redder,
to avoid confusion with H.

Yuck, now it is this garbage that will appear on merchandise rather than
the very good symbols from the Hogwarts shield in the books.

I loved the suggested use of lutefisk, smalahove, and cod-fish tongue,
but I thought your previous sig said you were a Naval Architect, so
can't you build your own ship for the keel-hauling?

Je wrote:
> Am I a big dork, then for loving the cover of GoF?  I think HP
> looks like such a cutie there!

I like the American cover of GoF because of all the images mixed into it
(like Padfoot looking out from the horizon), but I DO NOT LIKE the
central faces. To me, they ALL look like female faces -- Krum is the
only one I can believe was intended to be a male.

Christian Stubo wrote:
> Last time I checked, said Draco should be silver-blond and
> not ravenhaired, but evidently not all creators of sites about
> Harry Potter bother to read the books

IIRC last time I checked, JKR hadn't called Draco's hair silver-blond
until PoA. Before that, she only described him as 'pale'. I had imagined
the pale boy as light blond and was surprised that she hadn't SAID SO
earlier. However, I don't know that we can fault people for thinking
pale skin contrasting with 'hair as dark as his heart' until they read
PoA.

Erich wrote:
> I was wondering if J.K. Rowlings borrowed death eaters
> from Beef eaters? Beef eater guard the Tower of london and
> I believe the crown jewels. I don't know why they're are called
> beef eaters.

Beefeater is what English speakers made of the French word 'buffetier',
which means a waiter at the buffet. According to the annotated Yeoman of
the Guard (the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta), there are two
organizations with similar looking uniforms, and the name Beefeaters
really belongs only to those who are royal household attendants, not to
the ones who guard the Tower of London, who are named Yeomen Warders.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From Zarleycat at aol.com  Sun Mar  4 19:47:39 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 19:47:39 -0000
Subject: Character Summary - Sirius (is sexy) Black
In-Reply-To: <014701c0a41a$f2516760$575dd63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97u64r+ob2d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13553

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
 
 1. How did he survive with his brain intact in Azkaban all those 
years?

I agree with all that's been said about Sirius' being able to survive 
Azkaban because he knew he was wrongly imprisoned and that was not a 
happy thought.  However, he would still have had many memories of 
happier days and these surely would be good Dementor fodder.  I think 
the ability to transform into his Animagus state was enough to fend 
off madness, although not enough to leave Sirius unmarked.  

> 2. Do you think volatility is a character trait or a symptom?

I think a little of both.  Certainly in PoA, Sirius was just a tad 
DRIVEN, at times, although not without cause.  From what we know of 
his pre-Azkaban days, this was a guy who was constantly in trouble, 
along with the other Maurauders, but who seemed to be able to charm 
people nonetheless, and who owned a flying motorcycle, which surely 
would not meet the approval of the folks from the MOM.  Maybe these 
are not signs of volatility, but I'd say they indicate that Sirius 
was a bit of a wild child in his younger days.

> 3. Would he really make a good parent?

Yes, but that may be my wish for a sappy, happy ending -  We'll find 
out that Arabella Figg was the daughter of the old, cat lady from 
Harry's neighborhood, and was Sirius' old flame and knew in her heart 
that he was innocent and they can all get together and have a 
perfectly fine life.  Some how I doubt it'll play out that way.

Also, I don't think we'll see Harry living with Sirius any time soon. 
If he did, he'd logically have a lot of questions to ask about his 
parents, to which Sirius probably knows the answers, which JKR won't 
want to reveal at this point.
  
> 4.  Why do a large part of the HP fandom think he's sexy? What is 
it about his personality that is or is not attractive?

The "wronged man" character, especially one who originally seems dark 
and dangerous, has a certain appeal.  And this wouldn't work as well 
in one's imagination if the man was short, fat and bald, with bad 
skin, and hair sprouting out of his ears.  Granted, Sirius was no 
prize, appearance-wise in PoA, but we knew from the wedding picture 
that he was handsome at one point in his life.  Plus, you know there 
has to be something of substance there if this emaciated wreck of a 
man could find the words to convince Harry in the Shrieking Shack 
that he would never have willingly betrayed James and Lily.

One other note re: appearance.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've 
gone back through PoA (US edition) and not once is there a clear 
statement regarding Sirius' hair or eye color, except where his 
Animagus form is referred to as a "pale-eyed, jet black dog."
In that respect, he seems to be the only character where JKR has not 
given us, up front, some details of what someone looks like.

> 5. With apologies to Monika, who just wrote to me and asked this 
question
> this morning and I thought it was so good I included it....don't 
you think
> it's a bit weird that Dumbledore sends Sirius to alert everyone? 
What will
> they think when the escaped murderer knocks at their door?

I think Dumbledore will alert the old crowd to trust his unusual 
choice of messenger before the messenger actually arrives.  And, 
maybe the message will be more of summons for everyone to meet 
somewhere that is safe for Sirius, so he has the means to escape, if 
necessary.  If these old acquaintences are people who knew Sirius 
fairly well in the past, then Dumbledore may be able to convince them 
that he really is the person they thought they knew and not a 
murderous traitor.

Marianne




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Sun Mar  4 19:52:06 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:52:06 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Depression
In-Reply-To: <3AA294A7.91D49B84@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKGEHCCAAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 13554

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Catlady [mailto:catlady at wicca.net]
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 8:17 PM
> To: HP4G
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Depression - Teenagers - House patches -
> Pictures of Characters - Beefeater

> I don't understand why Death Eaters whose Lord was destroyed would have
> happier thoughts than Sirius.

I didn't exactly say that. I think we will have some surprises in the next
book when the Dementors will leave Azkaban and the remaining Death
Eaters will be freed and will rejoin Voldemort. I just wanted to point out that
it can't be Sirius' happy memories that saved him from the Dementors
like Morsus Crustum had said in her comment. Happy thoughts are
exactly what Dementors use to feed on, but if you haven't any, there
isn't much they can take from you. And if you don't have any happy
thoughts, you are depressed (IMHO).

Monika

Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 




From tacrader at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 20:00:52 2001
From: tacrader at yahoo.com (tacrader at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:00:52 -0000
Subject: A question about Pigwidgeon.
Message-ID: <97u6tk+s3k0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13555

I have searched this site and have yet to find the answer to my 
question, so here goes:

At the end of PoA Sirius sends a letter to Harry with a P.S. that Ron 
might like to keep the small owl since it was his (Sirius) fault that 
Ron had lost his rat.

Why then does Harry act like he has no idea who Pig is in the 
beginning of GoF? After Ron explains who Pig is, Harry asks about 
Crookshanks. Why wouldn't he have asked about Pig, knowing that his 
godfather had given it as a present to his best friend?

I must have missed something, but I cannot for the life of me figure 
out what it is!

Thanks!




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar  4 20:09:15 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:09:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question about Pigwidgeon.
References: <97u6tk+s3k0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00db01c0a4e6$fe9fe920$8e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13556

I think Harry was puzzled as to why Ron called him, "Pig" ... not that he had no idea who the owl was. Then Ron explained why he calls him Pig ... this is off the top of my head you understand.
Doreen
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: tacrader at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 2:00 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question about Pigwidgeon.


  I have searched this site and have yet to find the answer to my 
  question, so here goes:

  At the end of PoA Sirius sends a letter to Harry with a P.S. that Ron 
  might like to keep the small owl since it was his (Sirius) fault that 
  Ron had lost his rat.

  Why then does Harry act like he has no idea who Pig is in the 
  beginning of GoF? After Ron explains who Pig is, Harry asks about 
  Crookshanks. Why wouldn't he have asked about Pig, knowing that his 
  godfather had given it as a present to his best friend?

  I must have missed something, but I cannot for the life of me figure 
  out what it is!

  Thanks!


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From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  4 20:31:48 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael-pou)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:31:48 +0200
Subject: where is everyone?
Message-ID: <OE46kuGP7BiuRcT2edY0000266f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13557

We're waiting for you over in the chat room.

If you get an odd 'You have been disconnected..." message, just ignore it. Let it float on your screen and chat like it's not there.

Thanks, Yael
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Their  clothes  were  cut  off  the  edge of  the latest
fashion,  which was currently inclining  towards  wide
hats,  padded  shoulders, narrow  waists and pointed
shoes and gave its followers the appearance of being
very well-dressed nails."
      - Terry Pratchett, Pyramids.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Sun Mar  4 20:12:02 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:12:02 -0500
Subject: chat
References: <97u6tk+s3k0@eGroups.com> <00db01c0a4e6$fe9fe920$8e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <000901c0a4e7$669f7220$a456d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13558

Hi there was wondering if there is a massive chat boycott, whether the
chatroom is malfunctioning for most people or what?  Its 3:15 and there are
only 3 of us around...hmmmm

carole
(wondering if its her breath or her husbands strange posts that are scaring
everyone off)








From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Sun Mar  4 20:13:16 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:13:16 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question about Pigwidgeon.
In-Reply-To: <97u6tk+s3k0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJHGODKMAPNGJPPHEKECBCAAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13559

Ron explains to Harry who Pig is as the nickname his sister Ginny calls
Pigwidgeon. It is only short for Pigwidgeon. I just read that with my boys a
few nights ago. From Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts

-----Original Message-----
From: tacrader at yahoo.com [mailto:tacrader at yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 3:01 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A question about Pigwidgeon.


I have searched this site and have yet to find the answer to my
question, so here goes:

At the end of PoA Sirius sends a letter to Harry with a P.S. that Ron
might like to keep the small owl since it was his (Sirius) fault that
Ron had lost his rat.

Why then does Harry act like he has no idea who Pig is in the
beginning of GoF? After Ron explains who Pig is, Harry asks about
Crookshanks. Why wouldn't he have asked about Pig, knowing that his
godfather had given it as a present to his best friend?

I must have missed something, but I cannot for the life of me figure
out what it is!

Thanks!


_______________________________________________

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From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar  4 20:28:33 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:28:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] chat
References: <97u6tk+s3k0@eGroups.com> <00db01c0a4e6$fe9fe920$8e14a3d1@doreen> <000901c0a4e7$669f7220$a456d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <00e201c0a4e9$b0b597c0$8e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13560

most of us are in cheetah as we can not use Yahoo
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Carole Estes 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 2:12 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] chat


  Hi there was wondering if there is a massive chat boycott, whether the
  chatroom is malfunctioning for most people or what?  Its 3:15 and there are
  only 3 of us around...hmmmm

  carole
  (wondering if its her breath or her husbands strange posts that are scaring
  everyone off)






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From jfenne at uwalumni.com  Sun Mar  4 20:29:50 2001
From: jfenne at uwalumni.com (Jennifer Fenne)
Date: 4 Mar 2001 12:29:50 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Thought about Dumbledore's "Look of triumph"
Message-ID: <20010304202950.21624.cpmta@c014.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13561

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From wings909 at aol.com  Sun Mar  4 20:33:21 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:33:21 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Thought about Dumbledore's "Look of triumph"
Message-ID: <74.8498520.27d40091@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13562

In a message dated 3/4/01 3:31:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jfenne at uwalumni.com writes:

<< By using Harry's blood, is V unwittingly infecting himself with some of 
Harry's goodness, as well as with the protection he inherited from Lily?   >>

Neat thought!  I was thinking that maybe since Voldemort was now so "inhuman" 
that he was perhaps taking some of Harry's mortality....thereby making it 
easier for V to actually die.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor








~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nothing is real.  It's all in the mind.  



From ljl236 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 20:37:02 2001
From: ljl236 at yahoo.com (LJL)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:37:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the extra questions
In-Reply-To: <983683832.38411.97340.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010304203702.24689.qmail@web9102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13563

Love, love, LOVE the query that asks if we regard others (never us!) as
muggles! some things just go without saying!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From tacrader at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 20:37:04 2001
From: tacrader at yahoo.com (tacrader at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:37:04 -0000
Subject: A question about Pigwidgeon.
In-Reply-To: <MABBJHGODKMAPNGJPPHEKECBCAAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <97u91g+oc67@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13564

It still doesn't sit well with me because Harry first sees Pig when 
Ron sends the note that they will be coming to get him whether the 
Muggles like it or not. Though he doesn't know its name yet, he still 
acts like he has no idea who it is.

No matter, I just had that in my head and hadn't been able to work it 
out to my satisfaction. Thanks for the replies!




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Sun Mar  4 20:38:16 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:38:16 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Important note for all those who use cheeta for the chat
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEODDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13565

Apologies for doing an admin message.


This is for anyone who uses Cheeta Chat to log into the HPforGU chat
session (which is going on as I type).

The room name has changed. It is now grp*g.2176166:1

Note the addition of the grp to the previous name. If this is not there you
will end up in the wrong place.

This does not affect those who log in via the website.


If you have any question then let me know.


Simon
--
HPforGrownUps is the place for the best weekly chat about all things
related to the Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling. That chats are on
Sunday, starting at around 8 pm GMT. For more information please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownupsChatScripts or feel free to
e-mail me at mailto:simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar  4 20:45:59 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:45:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A question about Pigwidgeon.
References: <97u91g+oc67@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f001c0a4ec$200353e0$8e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13566

Yes, going back over when the owl arrives .. and then the conversation about its name at the Weasleys .. it does seem a bit disjointed. That is one of those things that makes you go hmmm
Doreen
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: tacrader at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 2:37 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A question about Pigwidgeon.


  It still doesn't sit well with me because Harry first sees Pig when 
  Ron sends the note that they will be coming to get him whether the 
  Muggles like it or not. Though he doesn't know its name yet, he still 
  acts like he has no idea who it is.

  No matter, I just had that in my head and hadn't been able to work it 
  out to my satisfaction. Thanks for the replies!


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From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Sun Mar  4 20:53:23 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:53:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Shippers
Message-ID: <20010304205323.E38F036F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13567

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From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 21:00:51 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 21:00:51 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Comments on 'over-analysis'  (was Re: JKR's play on words etc...)
In-Reply-To: <000101c0a4cc$e8006ec0$4751d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <97uae3+l019@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13568

Carole wrote:
>>Insert long, hilarious post here<<

*cracks up* Oh, that is the sort of thing rainy Sunday mornings were 
made for!

As someone who plans on over analyzing things for a living someday 
(future college literature professor, hopefully), I have to say that 
sometimes I stop and wonder why we do it. Most of the time, this 
happens when one of my friends (usually one of those engineering 
major people) asks me where I come up with the @$#$% I say in English 
class (read: stuff I see in the stories that they don't). And it's 
because the characters become real people to us, with real motives 
and lives beyond what we get to see in the book.

The HP books are no exception to this. These are real people to us, 
and that's the real magic of reading (to be completely cliched). To 
some people, it might be overanalyzing; but we *know* Jo puts stuff 
in there on purpose -- and writers also put stuff in without meaning 
to. So it's interesting, and entertaining, and a great way to occupy 
ourselves until the next book.

Stacy

PS -- I did not mean to offend any engineering majors on this list! 
If you're on this list, then it probably means that you enjoy reading 
into things! My friends don't (tell me why you would take AP English 
if you hate to read and write? Ugh).




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sun Mar  4 21:19:19 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 21:19:19 -0000
Subject: about those Evans girls' names
In-Reply-To: <97sk30+vfhr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97ubgn+eoaq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13569

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> My wife just made an interesting observation. She pointed out, when 
I 
> mentioned that Lily and Petunia's names were both flowers, that 
> Malfoy's mother's name is ALSO a flower (with a letter or two 
> changed). Now wouldn't it be interesting if Narcissa Malfoy's maiden 
> name was also Evans...
> 

The Victorians had a "language of flowers" where each flower was given 
some meaning. 

According to this web site 
http://www.pioneerthinking.com/flowerlanguage.html Petunia 
can mean resentment.

:-)Milz




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Sun Mar  4 21:23:04 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:23:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Question for shippers
Message-ID: <20010304212304.37A382742@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13570

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From kathleen at carr.org  Sun Mar  4 21:39:06 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:39:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ron likes Hermione?
Message-ID: <200103042151.f24LpY622128@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 13571

OK, I am sure that no one will be surprised that I don't agree with the idea 
that Ron doesn't like Hermione!

Star wrote all the stuff after the >s:
>Ron thought of Hermione as a last resort, if he liked her why didn't he ask
>her before hand, he could have 'pretended' he wanted to go as friends but
>no, he didn't even think of her till it was too late.

JKR herself has said that Ron doesn't know what's going on yet.  I think it's 
pretty clear he just hasn't admitted his feelings, even to himself, yet.

>Also, Ron didn't seem mad that she was going with some one else before the
>dance at all, if it would have been just another student I don't think ROn
>would have gotten mad.

I definitely have to disagree here.  He asked her repreatedly who she was 
going with.  That wasn't casual curiosity.

>I think Ron got mad b/c he was jealous not of not going with Hermione but
>b/c Hermione got to go with his 'hero'.

I think you have a point; the fact that it was Krum was probably a part of it.
 But I disagree that he wouldn't have been jealous if it had been anyone else.
 Remember how extra-disgusted Ron was at Hermione's crush on Lockhart?  The 
fact that it's Krum she goes with makes it sting more.  But it would have 
gotten to him either way.  There's no doubt in my mind about that.

I think this is an interesting argument but, like I said, I don't buy it.  If 
nothing else, I don't see how you could square this with Hermione's statement 
and Harry's thoughts at the end of the Yule Ball, about how Hermione had 
gotten the point much better than Ron had.  This exchange makes it very clear 
to me, at least, that Ron wanted to go to the Ball with Hermione.


Cap'n Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
eagerly preparing for another round of shipper fun




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Mar  4 22:00:45 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 14:00:45 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry expelled?
In-Reply-To: <3AA1B8A3.DBA01B7D@texas.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193521.03a20100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010304135515.03177400@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13572

At 09:38 PM 3/3/01 -0600, Amanda Lewanski wrote:
>Source, please? This is the first I've heard of this, and there's rumors
>and then there's rumors.
>
>--Amanda

While I've heard this repeated several places, I can find no
reliable source.  I humbly apologize for perpetuating an apparently
unfounded rumor.

I will now go and surrender myself to Filch and volunteer to polish
the entire Trophy Room without magic.  :)



                                                 -- Dave




From jfenne at uwalumni.com  Sun Mar  4 22:38:27 2001
From: jfenne at uwalumni.com (Jennifer Fenne)
Date: 4 Mar 2001 14:38:27 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Thought about Dumbledore's "Look of triumph" Pt II
Message-ID: <20010304223827.25487.cpmta@c014.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13573

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From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Sun Mar  4 23:47:55 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 19:47:55 -0400
Subject: FILM: The Quest for the Trailer
Message-ID: <3AA2D42A.74E08411@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 13574

Well, I've learned a lot about downloading Quicktime over the last week.
:-)

This is how I finally figured out how to download the high resolution
trailer:  In Netscape, in the Location: field, I pasted in
http://a1652.g.akamaitech.net/7/1652/559/96504077ca22bab4aa3f1447992178c8/harrypotter.warnerbros.com/med/trailer/harry_potter_trailer_qt_hi.mov

The trailer downloaded, and I watched it. It's not all there, but a lot
less patchy or black as the low resolution version, or the Real Player
version.

Then to download it, I chose "Save as:" under File. There may have been
a quicker or more direct way, but this was the best I could do. I
thought I'd share in case there is someone else who's struggled as much
as I have trying to download the trailer so we can watch it over and
over again without having a temporary download.

Oh, and I loved the trailer. Although I *really* can't see snotty little
Draco in leather pants after that!

Angela
-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
    "There is in the worst of fortune the best of chances 
        for a happy change."    Euripedes



From fefe at fazekas.hu  Mon Mar  5 00:02:40 2001
From: fefe at fazekas.hu (fefe at fazekas.hu)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:02:40 -0000
Subject: Stupid thoughts about half-giants :)
Message-ID: <97ul30+a65b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13575

Hi !

If you are under 14, stop reading :)

In GoF, Chapter 23, we get to know that Hagrid and Madame Maxime are 
both half-giants. Their conversation:

"I jus' knew . . . knew you were like me. . . . Was it yer mother or 
yer father?
"
"I - I don't know what you mean, 'Agrid. ..."
"It was my mother," said Hagrid quietly.

We get to know that half-giants are people one of whose parents was a 
giant. It seems from the conversation that it can be either the 
mother or the father. In Hagrid's case, it was his mother.
In the beginning of Chapter 24, Hermione says:

"Well, I thought he must be," she said, shrugging. "I knew he 
couldn't be pure giant because they're about twenty feet tall.

I just wrote this because i just found the idea funny... can you 
imagine an ordinary man or woman and a 20 feet tall giant having 
sex ? :)
Yes, it's unimportant, but i'm sure that millions of little children 
started to think about this... poor parents, who had to explain it 
somehow to their little children who they've just told about the way 
babies are born :)

Excuse me for my stupid thoughts :)

Fefe





From bohners at pobox.com  Sun Mar  4 21:19:25 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:19:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius
References: <F251z6Np3XdflFMYcsQ0000192f@hotmail.com> <3AA1B019.404DC1B5@texas.net>
Message-ID: <07d001c0a508$66bc1ee0$3f3cacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 13576

> My point is, maybe I'm not attracted to Sirius at this point in time
> because I *don't* think he'd be a good parent, and that's my modus
> operandi at the moment. Other moms of small children on the list? Do I
> just have no life, or do you think this holds any water? Ordinarily he's
> just my type. I raised my hand for Alan Rickman, after all....

I have a nine-month-old son, and I like Sirius just fine, though as of the
end of GoF my heart belongs to Snape.

I can see why Sirius is attractive, and I don't even think that he would
make a bad parent (I'd love to see Harry go to live with him rather than the
Dursleys, for sure!).  I honestly didn't think of him as a "bad boy" when I
read PoA -- I guessed quite soon that he was really not the villain he was
made out to be, and that he would be somehow vindicated, and I was pleased
to find that I was right.  I still don't quite understand the slashing of
the Fat Lady and Ron's bed hangings (other than that JKR felt this was
necessary to keep up the dramatic tension, of course) because it just didn't
seem in character, and still doesn't.  So I practically ignore those
incidents, for all intents and purposes, when thinking of Sirius's
character.

And although I was first bedazzled by Alan Rickman when I saw him playing
the villain in DIE HARD (the only thing worth watching in that movie, IMO),
I actually found him most appealing in TRULY, MADLY, DEEPLY, a movie in
which his role was not even remotely sinister.  Nevertheless, I think that I
first started to like Snape because he reminded me of Alan Rickman playing a
villain -- he always seemed to steal the scenes he was in, and always seemed
to have much more to him than met the eye.  Finding out that AR was actually
*going* to play Snape was pure serendipity, but I have to say it didn't
actually increase my fascination with Snape, merely cemented it.

I am not interested in Snape because he is a "bad boy".  I'm interested in
Snape because I think he is actually a good boy with a phenomenal amount of
courage and resolution who is willing to be regarded as -- and indeed to
pretend very convincingly to be -- a bad boy in the service of Dumbledore
and of the greater good.  Although his feelings of resentment and bitterness
toward James Potter and the other Marauders were very real and to some
extent are still there (making it not too much of a stretch for Snape to act
harshly toward Harry, who is after all the spitting image of his father), I
believe that Snape's behaviour to date has been largely a theatrical
performance.  I don't think we've ever yet seen the real Snape, and I look
forward to meeting him soon.  If my theory is right, I think he has the
potential to fulfill a sort of fatherly role in Harry's life, and indeed may
have to do so when Dumbledore is taken out of the picture.
--
Rebecca





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Mon Mar  5 00:23:33 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 5 Mar 2001 00:23:33 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <983751813.190.1397.k6@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13577


Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
HPforGrownups group:

Are you a fan of Sherlock Holmes as 
well as Harry Potter, and do you belong 
to any Sherlockian groups or mailing 
lists? 

  o An enthusiastic yes to both 
  o I like Holmes, but I don't belong to any lists/groups 
  o No, I'm not interested in Sherlock Holmes 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/polls 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 







From bohners at pobox.com  Mon Mar  5 00:39:56 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:39:56 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stupid thoughts about half-giants :)
References: <97ul30+a65b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <083601c0a50c$d0c16620$3f3cacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 13578

Re the size disparity between Hagrid's parents:

Two words:  Engorgement Charm.  It's even been mentioned in the books
(though admittedly not in *that* context).

I thought of that problem too.
--
The Marauder's Map
rebeccaj at pobox.com





From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Mon Mar  5 00:49:20 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:49:20 -0400
Subject: FILK:  All the Creatures in the World
Message-ID: <3AA2E290.4B85DF72@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 13579

Dedicated to Caius Marcius

(To the tune of 'Calendar Girl' by Neil Sedaka)

The scene:  the last Care of Magical Creatures class for the year, end
of GoF.
Harry, Hermione, and Ron help Hagrid clean up after another Blast-Ended
Skrewt 'incident'

Ron:  Hagrid, your classes are always "interesting", to say the least.
When
do we study hamsters?

Hermione:  The library has "Hamsters and Gerbils and Guinea Pigs, Oh
My!", Ron

Harry:  Ever reckon you'd be the Magical Creatures prof, Hagrid?

Hagrid (blushing): It's all thanks to that great man, Albus Dumbledore

Ron: Well, you're the best man for the job!

Hagrid:  Well, I do have a fancy for lots of creatures ...

(The kids): No! Go on!

Hagrid: Well ... 

(Sprightly music starts)

HAGRID:
I love, I love, I love the little creatures,
Yeah, all sorts of creatures
I love, I love, I love the big creatures too
I love all the creatures in the world!

THE KIDS:	Spiders!
HAGRID:		Cute and covered with fuzz

THE KIDS:	Cornish Pixies!	
HAGRID:		They got me all abuzz

THE KIDS:	Snakes!	
HAGRID:		They like to lovingly entwine	

THE KIDS:	Dragons!			
HAGRID:		They make the cutest babies, oh so fine!

Yeah, yeah, all the creatures in the world!
I love to hug and cuddle them in my great big arms
Every one (THE KIDS: Every one!) in the world!

THE KIDS:	Animagi!
HAGRID:		Who they are can be a great surprise

THE KIDS:	Owls!
HAGRID:		Deliverin' messages and lookin' wise

THE KIDS:	Banshees!
HAGRID:		I think they're just misunderstood	

THE KIDS:	Centaurs!				
HAGRID:		Coolest pals in the neighbourhood	

Yeah, yeah, all the creatures in the world!
I love to hug and cuddle them in my great big arms
Every one (THE KIDS: Every one!) in the world!

THE KIDS:	Those bleeping Skrewts!
HAGRID:		I love to watch them eat a ton of slugs	

THE KIDS:	Basilisks!
HAGRID:		They really need a lot of tender hugs	

THE KIDS:	Unicorns!
HAGRID:		They're shiny and pretty and they glow!	
					
THE KIDS:	Hippogriffs!				
HAGRID:		Grandest creatures and quite a fierce foe 

Yeah, yeah, all the creatures in the world!
I love to hug and cuddle them in my great big arms
Every one (THE KIDS: Every one!) in the world!
-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
    "There is in the worst of fortune the best of chances 
        for a happy change."    Euripedes



From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 00:47:59 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:47:59 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stupid thoughts about half-giants :)
Message-ID: <f9.7d0572e.27d43c3f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13580

In a message dated 03/04/2001 7:34:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bohners at pobox.com writes:

<< Two words:  Engorgement Charm.  It's even been mentioned in the books
 (though admittedly not in *that* context).
  >>

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!  Oh God, I can't stop laughing!

GOOD ANSWER!

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar  5 01:14:41 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:14:41 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: about those Evans girls' names
References: <97ubgn+eoaq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012a01c0a512$ae76f5c0$8e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13581

The Victorians had a "language of flowers" where each flower was given 
some meaning. 

According to this web site 
http://www.pioneerthinking.com/flowerlanguage.html Petunia 
can mean resentment.

:-)Milz

I think it is interesting that it also said that Petunia can mean, "your presence soothes me". Maybe when push comes to shove, the Dursleys will rally behind Harry and act like real family. Now thete's a stretch.

"Tussie-Mussies reacquaints readers with the complex and delightful language of flowers, and the art of making them speak through Victorian "talking bouquets" called tussie-mussies."

Don't you just adore the word, "tussie-mussies"?
I didn't realize that Angelica was a flower. (inspiration). One of the meanings for Lily was "keep visitors away". And what about Myrtle? (love, marriage) I can just hear the shippers now.

Thanks for leading me to that page.
Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  5 01:38:03 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:38:03 -0500
Subject: Filk - Hermione Don't Use that Rhino
References: <97sr5q+nreu@eGroups.com> <01ce01c0a480$2482e0a0$9c3670c2@c5s910j> <000101c0a4cc$e8006ec0$4751d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <009d01c0a514$ec5200e0$a456d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13582

The silly story about the Rhino incident was written about an earlier
reference to the rhino in lonesco to ease some tensions on this message
board.  It is okay to step outside the written lines once and again.  The
story now brings to mind an old Steely Dan song "Rikki Don't lose that
Number."  The original silly story is attached below in case you missed it.
My apologies to Neil Ward for interrupting his late night reading.

Hermione Don't Use that Rhino  (words by Randy Estes)

We hear your studying, that's okay!
I thought our little storyline was a little bland.
I guess you kind of scared that kid.
He turned and ran.
So won't you have a change of heart?

Hermione don't use that Rhino
You don't want to scare nobody else
Send it back to the closet, up on the shelf.
Hermione don't use that Rhino
It's the one with thoughts all of its own.
If they find it out in the hallway,
You'll be sent home.

I have a friend at school
He's heard your name.
He might go tell the teachers about that Rhino.
We better stay inside the "read" lines.
I don't know.
And you don't have to act so smart...

Hermione don't use that Rhino
You don't want to scare nobody else
Send it back to the closet, up on the shelf.
Hermione don't use that Rhino
It's the one with thoughts all of its own.
If they find it out in the hallway,
You'll be sent home.

You tell yourself you're not that kind
But you don't even know your mind
And you could have a change of heart.

Hermione don't use that Rhino
You don't want to scare nobody else
Send it back to the closet, up on the shelf.
Hermione don't use that Rhino
It's the one with thoughts all of its own.
If they find it out in the hallway,
You'll be sent home.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at earthlink.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Comments on 'over-analysis' (was Re:
JKR's play on words etc...)


> Ah yes, I can picture it now...  Professor Neil, dressed in his night
> robe,bunny slippers, and hairnet with his reading material clutched in his
> hand and his reading glasses sliding halfway down his nose....He comes to
> the door of his living quarters to answer the frantic knocking by the
> troubled students....
>
> Professor Neil:  "What's all this about then?"
>
> Student named Malodorous Brat:  "Sir, Hermione is trying to summon up that
> irritating rhino into the Gryffindor hallway, again!"
>
> Hermione: "It's not that way at all Sir!  He keeps telling me that I'm
> reading too much into this storyline again!  And I said if you don't stop
it
> this instant, I'll be forced to put that Rhino into your subconscious mind
> again.  And he said.."
>
> Professor Neil: "Enough !  Enough, I said!!  Hermione, if I've told you
> once, I've told you a thousand times, it's not polite to force large
animals
> into the subconscious minds of the first year students!  They wake up
> screaming and wailing, and disturbing the entire House with their antics!"
>
> Hermione:  "But you don't really believe that the words on the printed
page
> represent everything that's in the mind of "She Who Must Not Be Named"
when
> she writes this stuff!  Do you?  I mean I get such limited material to
work
> with here...Harry and Ron get to say and do all the fun stuff!  I'm the
one
> who always has to be practical.  I always have to play fair, and I have to
> be the bad guy every time one of them starts to get into trouble.  I feel
> like calling my agent every time I see one of those scenes in the script.
> But JK...I mean "She Who Must Not Be Named" always talks me into doing it
> again and again.  I swear I'll be in therapy for the rest of my life
trying
> to work through these repressed feelings.  I see myself as the true star
of
> the books.  After all, I am the smartest character in the whole
series...If
> it weren't for all of those boy action scenes, I'd be getting top billing.
> "Hermione Granger and the Lesser Beings battle the Evil Ones"... that's
what
> they ought to call the next book.  But noooo..."
>
> Professor Neil: " That's quite enough young lady!  We all have our place
in
> the storyline.  If you keep talking this way, you'll upset Ron and Harry,
> and then how are we supposed to resolve all the love relationships that
will
> happen in the future. After all, fans like Penny have donated thousands of
> galleons to the H/H ship fund, and JK..I mean "She Who Must Not Be Named"
> has to wait for the final negotiations to be completed before awarding you
> to the winner!"
>
> Hermione: "Paaleeease stop that nonsense, would you?  Why would I be
> interested in Harry or Ron, when it should be obvious to everyone that I
can
> create my own Brad Pitt and Fabio lookalikes to satisfy my every desire
just
> like every other mature witch can!  Harry's been alternating between his
> Brittany Spears and Claudia Schiffer clones for months now.  Ron, of
course
> has Super Model Orgies every night.  I guess that's just the result of
> growing up in a large family... What I'm trying to say here is that the
fans
> have got to stop assuming that we are only what our storyline allows us to
> be!  Those silly stories that the fans write are so limiting!  I can act
> better than that for goodness sake.  But what I really want to do is
> direct..."
>
> Professor Neil: " Well, I have heard about all I can stand for one night.
> Put the Rhino back into the abstract closet and go back to your evening
> studies.  Let the fans have their fantasies, and be thankful that "She Who
> Must Not Be Named" doesn't just write for kids!  We all have to do our
jobs
> and read the lines, and go about our lives."
>
> Professor Randy pokes his head out of the next door down the hall. "What's
> all the racket, Neil?"
>
> Professor Neil: "Just the same old Rhino thing!"
>
> Professor Randy: "Well you know sometimes a Rhino is just a Rhino.  And
> sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!  But a popular book series can be all
> things to all people!"
>
> Professor Neil: "Now don't you start with your crude remarks again!  We
all
> know how you got the name Randy after all!  I'll never understand how
> Dumbledore allowed you to teach Magical Practical Jokes for Fun and
Profit!
> We should be teaching the classics!  Not all this common trade school
fluff
> for the working class!  But you did pull off one of the all time best with
> that 2000 election in the United States...The way you kept changing the
vote
> count in Florida was hilarious!  I've never seen Dan Rather look so
> embarrassed in all my life!  Too bad they ended up with that Bush
> character!"
>
> Professor Randy: " You're missing the whole point, my good man!  I really
> did like Al Gore.  But without Bush in the White House, the world would
> become too well ordered, and where would the fun be in that?  I plan to
keep
> scaring the American public with the Dick Cheney near death experiences.
> Nobody is more scared that George W. about the prospect of losing the
leader
> of the free world.  George has no interest in listening to his Dad's
friends
> debate over who George should replace Dick with."
>
> Professor Neil;  " You are truly cruel!  But I must admit that the world
> would be boring without all of those Magical Practical Jokes controlling
the
> events of the day!  That trick you played on Ronald Reagan's memory was a
> bit much.  But he did say he did not want to recall the events of
> Iran-Contra in all honesty."
>
> Professor Randy:  "I do regret that one a bit.  But keeping the Muggle
World
> free from the sheer boredom of logical thought controlling world affairs
is
> a burden that I must bear."
>
> Professor Neil:  " Hermione back to your room.  Malodorous, get back to
your
> studies.  Randy, I've got to get back to my reading.  Tell Carole I loved
> her seminar on Controlling the Earth's Crust Movement through Magical
> Methods".
>
> Professor Randy:  " I'll tell her tomorrow when she calls.  She and Penny
> get back from Paris next week.  I kind of worry about Sirius being escort,
> but I've got to trust her."
>
> Professor Neil:  "Don't worry about it.  I spoke to Sirius about them, and
> he assured me that he's not going to get involved with another threesome
> like he did last time!"
>
> Professor Randy:  " Well that's good to hear!  Goodnight Neil."
>
> Professor Neil:  "Goodnight"
>
> (Wow.  I have no idea where all that came from.  It all started with those
> bunny slippers.)
>
> Time to sign off.  Randy goes back to his spellwork to cause George W. to
> make more gaffs in his latest speech before the public.  ;0)
>
> Randy
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neil Ward" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
> To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 2:53 AM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Comments on 'over-analysis' (was Re: JKR's
> play on words etc...)
>
>
> > Crustum the Clown wrote:
> >
> > <<And then there's my therory....you all read *way* too much into half
of
> > this stuff.>>
> >
> > Scott responded:
> >
> > <<--But thats what this list if for isn't it? I mean sure we probably
> "read
> > *way* too much" into the books, but I for one think it's fun!  Not to
make
> > you mad or anything but that is the whole point of  literary discussion.
> > (Kinda like that rhinoceros reference that
> >  supposedly had something to do with Ionesco...)>>
> >
> > Jen said:
> >
> > <<Oh PLEASE, let's not talk about that one again.  I was the one who
> brought
> > up the rhino-allusion originally, and let me just tell you, I got very
> sick
> > of the "you're reading WAY too much into this - it's just ridiculous"
> > posts/emails that just seeing a reference to it raises my blood
> pressure.>>
> >
> >
> > Yes, let's leave the scab over that wound, shall we?
> >
> > Jen is referring to an old thread that ended up causing some bad feeling
> on
> > the list.  So, in case anyone else was planning to comment on whether or
> not
> > some of us 'over-analyse' the Harry Potter books, I'll say, quite
firmly,
> > don't even go there!  It may start off in good humour, but we could
easily
> > end up with elevated blood pressure all round.
> >
> > Thanks, everyone.
> >
> > (Yes, I am wearing the moderator hairnet... and bunny slippers.  Wanna
> make
> > something of it?)
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > _____________________________________
> >
> > Flying-Ford-Anglia
> > Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)
> >
> > "Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
> > was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
> > of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]
> >
> > Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
> > to do with this club:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see
our
> > website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also
> consult our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also
consult our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>





From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar  5 01:47:10 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 19:47:10 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Comments on 'over-analysis'  (was Re: JKR's  play on words etc...)
References: <97sr5q+nreu@eGroups.com> <01ce01c0a480$2482e0a0$9c3670c2@c5s910j> <000101c0a4cc$e8006ec0$4751d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3AA2F01D.FBAE8CF5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13583

Carole Estes wrote:

> Time to sign off.  Randy goes back to his spellwork to cause George W.
> to make more gaffs in his latest speech before the public.  ;0)

Which will surely be less embarrassing than, say, misspelling a critical
word in his signoff on an email, eh?

You get to figure out which one. Have fun spear-fishing.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar  5 01:52:07 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 19:52:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Depression - Teenagers - House patches -  Pictures of Characters -  Beefeater
References: <3AA294A7.91D49B84@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3AA2F146.7EFDB3F0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13584

Catlady wrote:

> I seriously suggest that you arrange to swap teenagers with another
> parent who has the same problem. There is some inborn instinct for
> teens and their parents to irritate each other, which is why parents
> despairingly wonder how their kid is able to behave so decently to
> other adults while being such a monster to them, and kids wonder
> despairingly
> "How come all my friends think my parents are nice people?"

Oh, dear. That must be it. My daughter has managed to access teen mode
at age five. Pray for me.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar  5 02:02:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:02:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry expelled?
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303193521.03a20100@pop.mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010304135515.03177400@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3AA2F39D.E2C4F29E@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13585

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:

> While I've heard this repeated several places, I can find no
> reliable source.  I humbly apologize for perpetuating an apparently
> unfounded rumor.
>
> I will now go and surrender myself to Filch and volunteer to polish
> the entire Trophy Room without magic.  :)

Naah. Your task is to obtain a photo of Neil in hairnet and bunny
slippers.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 02:28:50 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 02:28:50 -0000
Subject: Neil's footwear - Sirius - Timeturner - Cover art
Message-ID: <97utl2+6tog@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13586

Ne[v]il[le] wrote:

>(Yes, I am wearing the moderator hairnet... and bunny slippers.  
>Wanna make something of it?)

Since it appears we may be deprived of the sight of Neville in robe 
and fuzzy slippers in this here movie, we will enjoy to the fullest 
the appearance of our dear FFA in net and bunnies.  Where do you wear 
those, anyway--one on each tire?

Carole on Sirius:

> 3. Would he really make a good parent to Harry or would that 
relationship
> falter if it was too close (so far Sirius has been there for advice 
but
> hasn't had to play an authority figure to Harry yet)?

Sirius's womanizing (yuck, what a word) and irresponsibility are 
legendary, and certainly plausible, but not particularly supported by 
canon.  So he was a troublemaker in school--okay.  So was James, so 
are the twins, so are H/R/H for that matter--none of that adds up to 
being particularly irresponsible in later life, or even as a 
teenager.  The one thing we know about Sirius that really shows he 
was once highly irresponsible is his prank on Snape (at Remus's 
expense, to boot).  I take that very seriously--I'd be worried about 
the conscience of a 16-year-old who did something that dangerous--but 
people do change.

What we know about Sirius as an adult, IMO, indicates that he's 
extremely responsible.  We discussed awhile back whether he was being 
impulsive when he came back north in GoF; I think his action was 
normal and responsible under the anything-but-normal circumstances.  
This is rather an extraordinary situation--what *is* the responsible 
thing for a godfather to do when he's wanted by the MOM with orders 
to soul-suck on sight, and the most evil wizard of all time is trying 
to murder his godson?  Stay safe, or get as close to the kid as 
possible?  He opts for the latter, and I'm not going to second-guess 
him.

His gentle acknowledgement and yet refusal of Harry's attempts to 
take care of *him* say a lot about his maturity and grasp of his 
role.  I'm thinking of the bit in "Padfoot Returns" where Harry 
says, "What are you doing here?"...darn, I need the book so I can 
quote it, but I just love the little exchange between them.  Harry's 
too concerned about him to be entirely happy that he's there; Sirius 
wants to joke about it but also recognizes that Harry's deeply 
worried, and reassures him.

What will happen when their relationship is a more everyday thing?  
They'll get on each other's nerves, test each other's limits, etc.  
It's like the "what would this couple talk about?" question--we can't 
fill this all in, but we can see that they have a solid relationship 
thus far and that they'll deal with whatever adjustments have to be 
made for normal life.  (Let's hope they get one.)

>4. <snip> What is it about his personality that is or is not
> attractive?

Monika, I don't go for bad-boy types either.  Maybe that's why Sirius 
doesn't particularly float my boat.  But what is appealing about him 
is his devotion to Harry, willingness to show his feelings, courage, 
loyalty, sense of humor, etc...there's a lot there for us attracted-
to-nice-guys types to love!

prince galrion wrote:

>(incidentally, one fan-site posted the oddest theory that I've ever 
>read - that it was Harry who, using a timeturner, had gone back in 
>time to murder the Riddles).  

Cool!  Ultimately unsupportable, IMHO, but a cool idea for those of 
us who thought "Harry?" when Frank described a pale, dark-haired 
teenager.  Very clumsy of him, though, if he was trying to do away 
with Voldy; he arrived about 18 years too late to prevent his 
conception.  And Harry, being the noble young man that he is, would 
kill V. if he had to, but not his dad and grandparents.

Je, I like the US GoF cover Harry too.  Naturally he'd be a dope if 
he grinned like that all the time, but I take this as the just-
survived-the-first-task-and-Ron's-my-friend-again giddiness.

The wand is way too long, though.  Now why does a detail like that 
bother me so much?

Obsessively-compulsively yours,
Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------
"And now, before we go to bed, let us sing the school 
song!" cried Dumbledore.  Harry noticed that the other 
teachers' smiles had become rather fixed.
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
-------------------------------------------------------




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Mar  5 02:02:47 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 02:02:47 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Weekly discussion summaries
Message-ID: <008401c0a518$6075b9a0$3b3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 13587

Hi everyone,

It looks like this week's discussion summaries will not be appearing on Monday as scheduled, as the volunteer (Vivienne O'Regan) is nowhere to be found and isn't responding to e-owls.   Maybe she's transferred to Durmstrang..?  

As soon as we have a sub writer for this week, I'll let you know.  It's supposed to be Chap 33 of GoF and Lord Voldemort...in case you were wondering.  Holds those interesting thoughts on the Dark Lord and his Death Eaters!!!

Neil (not describing what he's wearing unless you pay him 50p a minute...)

________________________________________

flying_ford_anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, 
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint 
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything 
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 02:43:38 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:43:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius
In-Reply-To: <97utl2+6tog@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010305024338.6738.qmail@web213.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13588


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >4. <snip> What is it about his personality that is
> or is not
> > attractive?
> 
> Monika, I don't go for bad-boy types either.  Maybe
> that's why Sirius 
> doesn't particularly float my boat.  But what is
> appealing about him 
> is his devotion to Harry, willingness to show his
> feelings, courage, 
> loyalty, sense of humor, etc...there's a lot there
> for us attracted-
> to-nice-guys types to love!

I have to confess a certain attraction to the
bad-boys, having married a convicted felon. However,
that doesn't preclude him from possessing all the good
qualities you mentioned (aside from the devotion to
Harry, this my husband does not possess, won't even
read the books <g>). By which I mean to say that
Sirius can be appealing on both levels, for the good
qualities and the bad-boy stuff, too.

Sheryll (who is imagining the reactions to her being
married to a felon, saying 'wait, it's not like I
married a murderer or something', but wait, um, I did)

=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 02:44:41 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:44:41 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownUps]   Trailer: I am Sorry
Message-ID: <F2846UuEhjJ8uT6Ssuo000017b6@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13589

I am sorry, i know, getting tired of trailer posts, BUT, I just read through 
200 of you guys' trailer posts plus about 300 more misc posts before I would 
post anything, so I am going to do it anyways.

Ok, Let me begin with the general.  I love the music, it is great, and I can 
feel the John Williams in it.  I get a very "ET" vibe though, of course with 
some Star Wars in the trumpet fanfare. (I play french horn, so Long Live 
John Williams!!)

Next, I like Uncle Vernon's voice.  It is great.  BUT, i didnt picture a 
hole in the cupboard, unless I missed something.

I love the Hogwarts Express, and Hagrid.  Hagrid is a lot more like i 
pictured him than I had expected.  As to his line, I don't remember who said 
it before, but I agree that they probably put it in there to say it, bc I 
dount that there will be a narrator.(But shouldn't there be, I mean, most of 
CH 1 is a narrator...."Mr and Mrs Dursley were...")

Hermione's "See, Easy" look to Ron was classic, I loved it.  I also like 
draco MUCH more than i thought i would.  When i saw the picture of Tom 
Felton, i was worried, but they almost did him justice <grins>

Ok, next is the flying scenes. This HAS to be when Nelville takes off, bc 
they are all looking skyward and Madam Hooch appears to be shouting.  Plus, 
if you look at the still, you can see both Harry and Draco on the ground.  
Here is a question though, The kid who appeared to be wearing the Hufflepuff 
badge in some of the earlier pics is standing next to Draco, i hope i am 
mistaken though.

Kudos to whomever called it that Hagrid was dragging a Christmas Tree, I 
thought about it forever!!

But overall, this renews my faith that the movie will be great, in the 
calliber of Interview with the Vampire as far as going from novel to script. 
  Except for the whole screaming thing...I don't get it, but I guess I will 
have to wait and see.

I realise this is rambling, but this is the first that i have gotten to say 
and I am quite Giddy.  I love it!!

Stephanie
Who is skipping school to watch every showing of HP at her local theatre on 
release day, well, ALMOST every showing...
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  5 02:50:05 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 21:50:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Weekly discussion summaries
References: <008401c0a518$6075b9a0$3b3670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <00c601c0a51e$fe7bc4e0$a456d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13590

I, the evil half of the Estes duo, would be willing to write the summary for
this chapter and the character study of Voldemort.  But of course you would
be giving me ultimate power in using my discretion on the proper wording.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  I think that I would be perfect for this task.  Perhaps
this time I can settle that dispute with that pesky kid once and for all
!!!!!

Lord Randemort

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Ward" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 9:02 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Weekly discussion summaries


> Hi everyone,
>
> It looks like this week's discussion summaries will not be appearing on
Monday as scheduled, as the volunteer (Vivienne O'Regan) is nowhere to be
found and isn't responding to e-owls.   Maybe she's transferred to
Durmstrang..?
>
> As soon as we have a sub writer for this week, I'll let you know.  It's
supposed to be Chap 33 of GoF and Lord Voldemort...in case you were
wondering.  Holds those interesting thoughts on the Dark Lord and his Death
Eaters!!!
>
> Neil (not describing what he's wearing unless you pay him 50p a minute...)
>
> ________________________________________
>
> flying_ford_anglia
>
> "Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
> was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
> of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]
>
> Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
> to do with this club:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Brought to you by Harry Potter for Grownups. For more information, see our
> website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups. Please also
consult our Very Frequently Asked Questions file @
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>





From landers at email.unc.edu  Mon Mar  5 02:59:24 2001
From: landers at email.unc.edu (Betty Landers)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 21:59:24 -0500
Subject: Dumbledore and the "Old Crowd
Message-ID: <3AA30109.6192480F@email.unc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13591

Hello all!  Coming out of deep lerkdom to bring up a question.
Reading all this discussion of Sirius and the fifth question about the
old crowd made me think of someone who Dumbledore mentions and we've
heard his name a couple times, but only in passing. Mundungus Fletcher
(sp?).  Book 2: Arthur Weasley is checking for illegal (misused) muggle
stuff and rades Fletcher's place, and Fletcher tries to curse him.  Book
4: Toward the beginning, just before they get to HOgwarts, we here Percy
talking about all the howlers and stuff he's been getting after the
incident in the woods, and he mentions in passing that Fletcher has
tried to take out a claim on a 12 bedroom tent or something like that.
HOwever, according to Percy, Fletcher was sleeping under a cloak propped
up with sticks.  Also in book 4: Toward the end, when Dumbledore is
sending Sirius to alert the "old crowd", he specifically mentions
Fletcher.
What, in your opinion, does this little bit of information suggest about
Fletcher?  Is it even the same person?  Why might Dumbledore trust him?
D you think Fletcher has always mistrusted the ministry?  General
speculation?
OK, going back to the land of Lerkdom and waiting for your ideas.




From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 03:03:19 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:03:19 EST
Subject: Music for HP
Message-ID: <8b.330998d.27d45bf7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13592

No, this isn't yet another discussion on the HP movie music....

I was just wondering if anyone else is like me and sort of has to set up a 
"setting" to read books to.  Like for the HP books, I have a certain cet of 
CD's that I will play while reading (or in my case re-reading) the books.  
Anyway, here is my list: artist name, then Album

Loreena McKennitt- The Mast and the Mirror, The Visit, The Book of Secrets 
(that's Book, and not Chamber...)

Sarah Brightman-  La Luna, Eden

Cantiga- Once Upon a Time

Ensemble Galilei- The Mystic and the Muse, Come, Gentle Night

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor  (who's listening to the wind howl outside and think it might be 
Remus coming to visit her ; )





From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 03:06:21 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:06:21 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Music for HP
Message-ID: <f3.8011a19.27d45cad@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13593

In a message dated 03/04/2001 10:04:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
wings909 at aol.com writes:

<< I have a certain cet >>

I must apologize for that horrible spelling of the word "Set".  Think of it 
as a finger twister..."a certain set of CD's"....

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 03:06:53 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 19:06:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Weekly discussion summaries
In-Reply-To: <00c601c0a51e$fe7bc4e0$a456d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20010305030653.10503.qmail@web206.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13594


--- Carole Estes <lrcjestes at earthlink.net> wrote:
> I, the evil half of the Estes duo, would be willing
> to write the summary for
> this chapter and the character study of Voldemort. 
> But of course you would
> be giving me ultimate power in using my discretion
> on the proper wording.
> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  I think that I would be perfect
> for this task.  Perhaps
> this time I can settle that dispute with that pesky
> kid once and for all
> !!!!!
> 
> Lord Randemort

I will throw my support behind Lord Randemort, please
let him write this one. 

Excuse me, Lord Randemort, sir, you had some serious
bargaining power there to get us a description of what
Neil was wearing and you didn't use it. Now I have to
sit and wonder, as I can't afford the 50p a minute
(the Canadian dollar being what it is).

Sheryll


=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Mar  5 03:17:50 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 03:17:50 -0000
Subject: Don't Know Much About Accio (filk)
Message-ID: <97v0gu+8o82@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13595

Don't Know Much About Accio (from GoF, Chap. 20)

(To the tune of Wonderful World)

Dedicated to Ellie Rosenthal

(THE SCENE: Prof. Sprout's greenhouse. Enter HARRY POTTER, who 
breathlessly rushes to HERMIONE GRANGER)

HARRY (spoken): Hermione ? I need you to help me

HERMIONE (spoken): What  d'you think I've been trying to do,
Harry?

HARRY (spoken): Hermione, I need to learn to do a Summoning Charm 
properly by tomorrow afternoon



(music)
Don't know much about Accio
Through the air can't make things go
Don't know how to cast Summon Spells
Don't know how to levitate too well
But if I cannot learn to beckon brooms
I am going to meet certain doom
I'll be a Horntail snack, you should know

So tomorrow I'm facing a dragon
They bought in from Hungary
And if you can't teach me to summon
I can only hope that she's not hungry
.

HERMIONE 
When it comes to saying Accio
Talk to me, I'm the CEO
When I've taught to you that Summon Charm
You'll face dragons without much alarm
Even though we will lose some sleep
I'll guarantee you'll make a clean sweep
When your Firebolt goes with the flow!

(They retreat to an empty classroom, where Hermione drills Harry 
relentlessly in the correct procedure) 

HERMIONE
Accio!

HARRY (concentrating intently)
Girl, you go!
Summon charm!

HERMIONE
No alarm!
Now I know that you're on the road 
Cause you've teleported Neville's toad
What a Tri-Wizards champ you will be!

	- CMC





From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 03:40:32 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 03:40:32 -0000
Subject: For SW fans
Message-ID: <97v1rg+dqak@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13596

I just saw a funny HP/SW crossover at TheForce.Net; it's one of 
those  add-on fanfics. I supplied the cantina scene.

http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2043648






From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 03:45:28 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 03:45:28 -0000
Subject: Neil's footwear - Sirius - Timeturner - Cover art
In-Reply-To: <97utl2+6tog@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97v24o+70h7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13597

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Ne[v]il[le] wrote:
> 
> >(Yes, I am wearing the moderator hairnet... and bunny slippers.  
> >Wanna make something of it?)
> 
> Since it appears we may be deprived of the sight of Neville in robe 
> and fuzzy slippers in this here movie, we will enjoy to the fullest 
> the appearance of our dear FFA in net and bunnies.  Where do you 
wear 
> those, anyway--one on each tire?
> 
 I can only assume that those only appear in his human form; in 
Mechanimagus form, the hairnet and bunny slippers manifest themselves 
as a roof rack (one of those old-fashioned flimsy ones that clamped 
to the drip rails) and whitewalls that look sort of pinkish in 
certain light and have those little plastic eyes on the valve stems.




From bbennett at joymail.com  Mon Mar  5 03:54:51 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 03:54:51 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Question for shippers
In-Reply-To: <20010304212304.37A382742@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <97v2mb+c8r1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13598

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Star <star_ling at w...> wrote:

> People always talk about the dance when supporting ROn 
likes Hermione saying Ron was mad b/c he liked Hermione and 
she didn't break off her date to go with him, I don't see this.  Ron 
thought of Hermione as a last resort, if he liked her why didn't he 
ask her before hand, he could have 'pretended' he wanted to go 
as friends but no, he didn't even think of her till it was too late.  >

This is the first time I've heard the theory that Ron was angry 
because Hermione wouldn't break her date to go with him - I 
don't agree with this either, Star.  I do disagree when you say he 
thought of her as a last resort, however - she may very well have 
been the first thing on his mind. Ron is a 14 year old boy who 
has a crush on a girl - a scary situation, made more so by the 
fact said girl has been a good friend for 3 years. If you go back 
through GoF, you'll see that Ron didn't initially ask Hermione, but 
he didn't ask anyone else either (brain-dead veela-induced 
moment with Fleur aside), even though he mentioned to Harry 
the need to find a date. Why not look? Well, he appeared quite 
shocked to find out Hermione had a date; I think in his 
self-centered-14-year-old-boy-with-a-crush-arrogance, he 
assumed Hermione wouldn't have a date, so he could fail to find 
one and then they could conveniently both go stag and hang out 
the ball (as friends, of course). Why not just ask? I remember 
having crushes on friends in middle school, and going out of the 
way to seem normal around the person (even to the point of 
being distant or acting oblivous).  I agree with you that it would 
have been easier if he'd just asked her to go as a friend, but 
when there's a 2nd friend involved who could potentially tease 
you (Harry), as well as siblings who wouldn't mind a little 
younger brother torture (Fred and George)... that's an emotional 
risk I don't think Ron was ready to take (not this makes him a big 
coward -he's young, and not the first to behave this way). Ron 
doesn't find a date (which Harry had to do for him) until after he 
finds out Hermione has one, and then it's someone he doesn't 
give two flips about going with - because the girl he really wanted 
to go with was taken. 

<Also, Ron didn't seem mad that she was going with some one 
else before the dance at all, if it would have been just another 
student I don't think ROn would have gotten mad.  I think Ron got 
mad b/c he was jealous not of not going with Hermione but b/c 
Hermione got to go with his 'hero'.  Ron couldn't believe that 
Hermion went with Krum and she wouldn't even tell him, this is 
the guy he wanted an autograph from and here his friend his 
going to the dance with Krum and didn't even tell him.  I see 
Ron's anger and jealousy coming not from like for Hermione but 
his like (hero type peoples) of Krum.  >

Star, I think you're right in regard to Ron being jealous of whom 
Hermione went to the ball with, but I see it as icing on the cake 
rather than the main reason for his anger. I think Kathy pointed 
out that Ron continued to pester Hermione into telling him who 
she was going with. Being angry at Hermione for going with 
Krum was easier than being angry at himself for not asking her, 
and more rational (to his mind, anyway) than being angry with 
her for looking pretty and having a good time at a ball.

> This is just part of an argument at one sense that is used for 
supporting ROn likes Hermione.  I have a lot of arguments 
against this I suppose b/c I've been in this type of thing with a guy 
friend of mind.  He acts towards me just like ROn acts towards 
Hermione and I know he doesn't have a crush one me for a fact 
so I suppose that tends to reflect my views.  >

Hmmm, I wouldn't be so sure about that, Star (just teasing ;*). 
Seriously, there are all kinds of relationships and situations (you 
heard it here first!), and this is the way I interprete Ron's feelings. 

Now, I'm going to go pout because the storm swerved and I'm 
not going to be snowed in tomorrow morning.

Best Regards,
B




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 04:14:35 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Clayton)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:14:35 +1000
Subject: TRAILER: urgent help needed!
Message-ID: <F267MJiQTyfPefLJGWS0001458e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13599

Hi all, I know the trailer has been done to death, but I've been 
computerless for the last few days and haven't seen it yet. I've tried a 
couple of different places, but none of the ones I've found have good 
quality. Which site is the best to get it from (I want to save it to my 
computer as well, if possible) and which player (ie, Windows Media, 
Quicktime etc) is best?
Thanks heaps,
Liz

-----
'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry.
'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second cousin who's 
an accountant, but we never talk about him.'
-----

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 01:03:11 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 01:03:11 -0000
Subject: Stupid thoughts about half-giants :)
In-Reply-To: <97ul30+a65b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <97uokf+s16r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13600

Yup, Engorgement Charm. But on all of Pa Hagrid, or just his.....

(AHEM) Anyway. Just curious, Fefe, but how long have you been sitting 
on that question; I can hear the embarrassment in your voice as you 
type! Oh, and the grand total of 5 smilies adds to that impression, 
too :)






From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Mon Mar  5 04:23:59 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 5 Mar 2001 04:23:59 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <983766239.5189.72290.f3@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13601


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Fan Fiction/Fanfic by Catlady/Lily04.htm 
  Uploaded by : catlady at wicca.net 
  Description : "Lily Potter and a Small Circle of Friends" Installment 04, Rest of Summer 1979 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan%20Fiction/Fanfic%20by%20Catlady/Lily04.htm 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

catlady at wicca.net
 







From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar  5 04:30:34 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:30:34 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownUps]   Trailer: Trailer still of Harry in cupboard
References: <F2846UuEhjJ8uT6Ssuo000017b6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <015201c0a52d$07b3a920$8e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13602


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stephanie Malfoy 
  To: HPforGrownUps at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 8:44 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownUps] Trailer: I am Sorry
  `Next, I like Uncle Vernon's voice.  It is great.  BUT, i didnt picture a 
  hole in the cupboard, unless I missed something.

  Stephanie
  Someone else said they thought that it was Harry peeking in on Snape, rather than out of his cupboard.
  In SS, it does say that Harry's cupboard is dark and it doesn't say whether or not there is a grate opening in it. (I guess that I just assumed there was, as there are in a lot of cupboard/closet doors, to cut down on dampness being trapped).

  But, in the Snape scene in SS, it does say:

  "He made his way down to the staffroom and knocked. There was no answer. He knocked again. Nothing. Perhaps Snape had left the book in there? It was worth a try. He pushed the door ajar and peeked inside --- and a horrible scene met his eyes. 

  So ... no peeking thru the grate opening here ... so I am back to saying it was out of the cupboard. :)
  Doreen 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainesj at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 04:43:17 2001
From: rainesj at hotmail.com (Justin Raines)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 04:43:17 -0000
Subject: TRAILER: urgent help needed!
In-Reply-To: <F267MJiQTyfPefLJGWS0001458e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <97v5h5+7io1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13603

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth Clayton" <nizbet_noni at h...> 
wrote:
> Hi all, I know the trailer has been done to death, but I've been 
> computerless for the last few days and haven't seen it yet. I've 
tried a 
> couple of different places, but none of the ones I've found have 
good 
> quality. Which site is the best to get it from (I want to save it 
to my 
> computer as well, if possible) and which player (ie, Windows Media, 
> Quicktime etc) is best?
> Thanks heaps,
> Liz
> 
> -----
> 'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry.
> 'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second 
cousin who's 
> an accountant, but we never talk about him.'
> -----


What sites have you tried?  There are lots of places where you can 
view it.  The official site from WB first.  Second you can download 
it from http://www.darkhorizons.com  If not then 
http://www.comingsoon.net  If these still don't work for you let me 
know and I can give you more sites or email it to you.

Justin




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Mar  5 04:47:06 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 04:47:06 -0000
Subject: Filk
In-Reply-To: <3AA1B160.98F6F9D4@texas.net>
Message-ID: <97v5oa+kf0a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13604

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> 
> > > Carole Estes wrote:
> > > >
> > > > By the way, what does filk stand for?  I write a
> > > > lot of silly songs, but I didn't know there was a name for it.
> > >
> > > Apparently it started life as a typo for "folk" on the program 
of >
> > a science fiction convention, and went on from there to mean >
> > "parody-type songs written to the tune of existing songs" up to > 
and
> > including "fannish music in general."

I never heard the term "filk" until I had posted several specimens of 
same to HP4GU: the term I've hitherto used was "Burlesque," which 
Dwight MacDonald defines as "[differing] from parody in that the 
writer is concerned with the original not in itself but merely as a 
device for topical humor....[as opposed to] parody [which] 
concentrates on the style and the thought of the original.  If 
burlesque is pouring old wine into new bottles, parody is making a 
new wine that tastes like the old but has a slightly lethal effect." 


    - CMC 




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 05:01:52 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 21:01:52 -0800
Subject: Trailer (again) Mention of ships
Message-ID: <F103jQTrO4xwv4hJzp700009003@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13605


Hmm. Comment time. First off, if we are going through another cycle of the 
Grand Shipper Posts, I demand a rally of the Draco/Harry shippers. Indeed. 
Secondly...I have been watching the trailer over and over, and (not like 
anyone but me cares) I think that the scene in which Draco appears is on the 
Hogwarts Express. If that is, in fact, Ron, than I think it is the "You 
think my name is funny, do you?" bit. It can't be much of anything else, 
since Draco's tie *is* black, so it was pre-sorting. The background could 
very well be the train...why not?

==============
"Morsus Crustum/Dervish/Blythe Spirit"

My Personal Ship: Draco/Harry
Favorite HP Character: Lucius Malfoy
Favorite Actor: Tom Felton...and Daniel Radcliffe. *sob*
Creepy Knowladge: "Draco" is in 27 frames of the trailer
Favorite Movie: The Harry Potter Trailer *snerk*

"I'll cable Hitler and tell him to shoot around you."



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Mar  5 07:46:49 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 07:46:49 -0000
Subject: Thoughts and questions on wands
In-Reply-To: <002701c0a4b1$78b701c0$72421e3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <97vg99+v9ol@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13606

>   Dave wrote:
>   > Personally, though, I'm not convinced they really break wands in
>   > in two... Why does Hagrid's seem to work well (for growing
>   > pumpkins and putting curly tails on bullying gits, anyway)?
> 
>   >>Spellotape?  I think they really do.  Hagrid and Ollivander 
mention it, independently--my sense was that this is the >>standard 
way of demonstrating a wizard's expulsion from magic-making.<<
> 
>   And we all remember how well spellotape worked on Ron's broken 
wand.  I just reread CoS and it left me wondering why Ron's broken, 
spellotaped wand is always backfiring, yet Hagrid's supposedly 
fractured wand seems to work through his umbrella just fine...though 
he did have a little trouble when he tried to turn dudley into a pig.
> 
>   ender

In SS, Ollivander says "...But I supposed *they* snapped it in half 
when you got expelled?"  Hagird agrees that, yes, *they* did.  Who 
would *they* be?  Headmaster at the time, Proffessor Dippet?  The 
MoM?  My theory of Hagrid's wand pieces seemingly working quite well 
in his umbrella is that when Dumble brought him on as groundskeeper, 
Dumble 'fixed' Hagrid's wand.  Either put it back together, or 
charmed the pieces to work properly.  (Hagrid tells Ollivander that 
he kept the pieces--maybe he kept the pieces and Dumble 'put' them 
back together; Hagrid just doesn't mention this part to Ollivander.)  
Dumble, knowing that Hagrid's a 'white hat', may have felt Hagrid 
would need that wand at some point.  (I think Dumble has 
always 'known' that Vold would undoubtedly be back--first correct 
prediction and all that.)  So, Dumble knew Hagrid would be a useful 
ally, and thus, had an extra motive for keeping Hagrid around, and 
with a functioning wand, beyond just the fact that Hagrid got a raw 
deal being expelled.  (Hagrid's thoughts on why Dudley only received 
a tail when being turned into a pig were that he was already most of 
the way there; the tail was all that was needed.  His wand makes the 
boat work quite well when he and Harry leave hut-on-the-rock...)

Kelley




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Mon Mar  5 08:00:20 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (monika at darwin.inka.de)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:00:20 -0000
Subject: Sirius
In-Reply-To: <07d001c0a508$66bc1ee0$3f3cacce@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <97vh2k+2grp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13607

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:

> I still don't quite understand the slashing of
> the Fat Lady and Ron's bed hangings (other than that JKR felt this 
was
> necessary to keep up the dramatic tension, of course) because it 
just didn't
> seem in character, and still doesn't.  So I practically ignore those
> incidents, for all intents and purposes, when thinking of Sirius's
> character.

Well, I think it is important for the understanding of his character 
*not* to ignore those incidents. You are right in believing that it
is a plot device, but there is more, because it is also a very
realistic reaction to all he is been through. As Carole explained
in her summary, we believe that he is suffering from post-traumatic
stress disorder, and his violent outbursts fit perfectly into this
theory. For anyone who doesn't know it (sorry to repeat myself), this
is a *mental* disorder that some (not all) people develop after
being exposed to a traumatic event. Year long imprisonment and
torture absolutely qualify as a traumatic stressor. And being exposed
to Dementors over years *is* torture, you won't be able to convince
me that it is not. The longer the trauma lasts or the more often you
are retraumatized the higher the possibility that you will develop
PTSD. There is only so much a human being can take. And if you look
at Sirius' behavior in PoA carefully, you will find that he has some
pretty classic PTSD symptoms. You don't do him justice if you ignore
his ordeal or if you think he got away unscarred. I think JKR did a
very good job with his characterization, including the events that
disturb us like the slashing of the Fat Lady or when he nearly choked
Harry in the Shrieking Shack. At this point, he can't control his
reactions, and I am convinced that we don't see his real self in PoA.
There's a reason why he had to pass the summer (four months to be
precise) in a place where he could feel safe and begin to recover
from the last thirteen years. He seems to be a different man in GoF,
but I truly believe that we finally got a glimpse at his real
personality. I also believe that he has matured a lot, and that's why
he will be a good parent to Harry, once they will have the chance to
be together, something that I don't see coming for a while.

Monika







From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 09:06:17 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:06:17 -0000
Subject: another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
Message-ID: <97vku9+t42j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13608

Hi,

I don't remember whether this has been broached (lovely word, never used it before) in the 
past. If it has - my apologies to the veterans here.
I spent quite a while on Saturday morning, instead of doing all the things I should have 
been doing, trying to decide what are my favorite HP magical objects or features. In the end 
I decided that the three top ones (not in any particular order) are the Sorting Hat that 
sings, Bertie Botts All Flavor Beans and the Weasley's ghoul in the attic.
The Sorting Hat because there's something so funny to me about the mouth that appears and 
the different song every year. Also I can't write verse to save my life, and that makes the 
hat extra admirable for me.
The All Flavor Beans I think because it reminds me of the fascination new food and new 
tastes had for me as a child.
The ghoul I find extremely funny because of the nonchalant way that its mentioned as a not 
very exciting feature of the house. 

So, I thought I'd put it as a question for you guys here - what do you find most 
imaginative, funny or otherwise exhilirating in HP? 



WARNING to the squeamish - ignore next paragraph!

On a different note, but related to Bertie's Beans - Does anybody else find it highly 
suspicious that Dumbledore recognized the taste of earwax? Vomit I understand, even bogies I 
understand (yuck), but earwax?!! 


Naama







From yael_pou at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 09:34:00 2001
From: yael_pou at hotmail.com (yael oren)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:34:00 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
References: <97vku9+t42j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OE29KpDS7hx27kBnccY000029ab@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13609

  So, I thought I'd put it as a question for you guys here - what do you find most 
  imaginative, funny or otherwise exhilirating in HP? 
Easy - Sirius, Lupin and Charlie!

No. Seriously - 1) The magnificent Fawkes the phoenix. 2) The moving photographs (especially the one in which Harry tried to release himself from Lockhart's grip). 3) Mediwizardry in general, Madam Pomfrey's magic in particular. 

  WARNING to the squeamish - ignore next paragraph!

  On a different note, but related to Bertie's Beans - Does anybody else find it highly 
  suspicious that Dumbledore recognized the taste of earwax? Vomit I understand, even bogies I 
  understand (yuck), but earwax?!! 

Also easy - haven't you ever had an accident when you picked your ear, forgot about it, and sometime later put your pinkie in your mouth? Didn't happen to me, but I watched my mother going through the experience. I was about three, but i still remember it well... :)

thanks, yael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From purdymango1 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 11:54:11 2001
From: purdymango1 at yahoo.com (Teek)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 03:54:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
In-Reply-To: <97vku9+t42j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010305115411.2555.qmail@web4703.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13610


--- naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I don't remember whether this has been broached (lovely word, never
> used it before) in the 
> past. If it has - my apologies to the veterans here.
> I spent quite a while on Saturday morning, instead of doing all the
> things I should have 
> been doing, trying to decide what are my favorite HP magical
> objects or features. 

Mine, in no particular order...

wands. I know, I know, they're not unique to the Potterverse, but
wouldn't YOU love to have one? and I love Mr. Oliviander. He's one of
my absolute favorite minor characters. I love his concentration and
knowledge about something which is obviously a highly skilled
disapline but that we muggles know utterly nothing about. I like how
they choose their owners, and how each core is unique, and how they
break, and "spellotape" and aah, have I mentioned lately that I
really like this series?

Wizarding trasportation: C'mon, you have to love this. The Floo
Network, including the summoning which resulted in decapitated Amos
and Sirius. The lines in GoF about flying carpets, the broomsticks in
general, Apparation/Disapparation, I want to be a wizard just so I
can move from point A to point B. I love Ebony's freeway broom paths,
(Hi, I can't remember the name right now.) too. 

Professor Binns: One day he got up and didn't notice he was dead.
Enough said. 

-Teek, who's suddenly feeling the urge to go read very strongly. 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 13:18:40 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:18:40 -0000
Subject: SB's sanity-SS's cruelty-DM's tie-DH's punishment-analysis
Message-ID: <9803ng+a33i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13611

Monika wrote:

>And if you don't have any happy thoughts, you are depressed (IMHO).

Can you really survive for 12 years without any happy thoughts at all? 
   
I am not saying this to downplay depression in any way--I know it is 
sheer torture and can kill Muggles as surely as Dementors can kill 
wizards--but I do think what the Dementors do is beyond what we 
generally call depression.  I would call it despair:  the absolute 
lack of any happiness and any sense that future happiness is possible. 
 Maybe at its worst major depression *is* despair...

So, can "not having any happy memories" be a protection?  The 
Dementors do two things:  they suck out all the happy thoughts and 
they also force you to relive terrible memories.  JKR has a scarily 
sharp imagination; this latter is one of the worst tortures I can 
imagine.  The only comforts for someone who's found the wreck of his 
best friend's body (murdered because of his own, Sirius's, bad 
judgment) is that the memory will fade over time, and that he can 
block it out with happy thoughts when it threatens to overwhelm him.  
The Dementors keep it as fresh as if it were happening for the first 
time and block happy thoughts.  This has to be as maddening as 
anything the Death Eaters have to remember.

...Except...

that Sirius does have a sense of identity, a conviction, that the 
Death Eaters can't have.  When all their happy times are stripped 
away, what do they have?  Sirius talks about holding onto the 
conviction that he was innocent, and that makes sense to me.  He 
couldn't feel good about being framed, but it did give him a sense of 
identity and purpose.  Can people who have made the purpose of their 
lives terror and torture hold onto something like this?  The Dementors 
must force them to see how utterly valueless their lives have been.  
In that sense, an innocent man will have comforts that the guilty 
don't.

The worst thing for Sirius himself seems to be his guilt.  It is 
positively suicidal for him to say to Harry (when H first accuses 
him), "I don't deny it," but he does it because he is so tortured by 
guilt about their deaths.  This is one thing the Dementors seemed to 
be able to inflict on him that he found impossible to shake.

Sorry, that was kind of rambling.  I can't quite work out 
myself what I'm trying to say.

Rebecca wrote:

>I'm interested in
>Snape because I think he is actually a good boy with a phenomenal 
amount of
>courage and resolution who is willing to be regarded as -- and indeed 
to
>pretend very convincingly to be -- a bad boy in the service of 
Dumbledore
>and of the greater good.  Although his feelings of resentment and 
bitterness
>toward James Potter and the other Marauders were very real and to 
some
>extent are still there (making it not too much of a stretch for Snape 
to act
>harshly toward Harry, who is after all the spitting image of his 
father), I
>believe that Snape's behaviour to date has been largely a theatrical
>performance.

Oh boy, dare I take on all these rabid Snapefans?  You all probably 
know some pretty scary potions.  Well, I can always drink out of a hip 
flask from now on.  I think Snape is good in the ultimate sense (i.e. 
is on the Right Side and will even sacrifice himself to defeat V), but 
I just can't buy the idea that he's really a nice guy.  There is no 
earthly reason why he has to treat his students so cruelly just to 
convince the world that he's a baddie.  Whenever I start to think that 
he's just a very grumpy person with an overly sarcastic sense of 
humor, I remember Trevor.  We're talking about someone who would force 
a student to kill his own pet.  (And as long as I'm being a party 
pooper, I'll confess that I'm one of the few who really hates the 
Malfoy-bouncing scene.  I just can't take physical cruelty.  Seeing 
Malfoy get slapped was fun; seeing him slammed against a stone floor 
in the form of a small animal wasn't.  Sorry, Ron, didn't mean to ruin 
your moment.)

Draco's tie (WARNING: TRAILER):  from my version, I'm not sure whether 
it's black or you just can't see the stripes.  If the latter, it could 
be any time.  

Dave humbly wrote:

>I will now go and surrender myself to Filch and volunteer to polish
>the entire Trophy Room without magic.  :)

Well, it beats answering Lockhart's fan mail.

Stacy in defense of "over"analyzing:

>it's because the characters become real people to us, with real 
motives
>and lives beyond what we get to see in the book.

Yes, beautifully said!  Thanks, Stacy!

Amy Z
who KNOWS that these people are real

---------------------------------------------
 "Before we begin our banquet, I would like 
 to say a few words.  And here they are: 
 Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
            --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 13:25:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:25:53 -0000
Subject: another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
In-Reply-To: <OE29KpDS7hx27kBnccY000029ab@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <980451+nchl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13612

Yael wrote:
> 
> Also easy - haven't you ever had an accident when you picked your 
>ear, forgot about it, and sometime later put your pinkie in your 
>mouth? Didn't happen to me, but I watched my mother going through the 
>experience. I was about three, but i still remember it well... :)

Because you're all so wonderful and I trust you to be kind, I will 
boldly confess that I know what boogers (that's what we call 'em in 
the USA) and earwax taste like, and believe you me, earwax is worse.

Geez, hasn't anyone else tasted disgusting things from sheer 
curiosity?  I thought that the fact that even as a child I never 
tasted a bug or a worm put me in a minority.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
  "Don't you call me an idiot!" said Neville.  "I don't think
you should be breaking any more rules!  And you were the one
who told me to stand up to people!"
  "Yes, but not to *us*," said Ron in exasperation.
                            -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Mon Mar  5 13:39:02 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:39:02 -0000
Subject: another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
In-Reply-To: <97vku9+t42j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9804tm+bo1s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13613

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
[snip]
 
> WARNING to the squeamish - ignore next paragraph!
> 
> On a different note, but related to Bertie's Beans - Does anybody 
> else find it highly suspicious that Dumbledore recognized the taste 
> of earwax? Vomit I understand, even bogies I understand (yuck), but 
> earwax?!! 

I tried answering this one once already, but somehow the message has 
not shown up on the site yet...  What bugs Yahoo today, I wonder?

Anyway, I do not find it suspicious at all.  After all, in 1994 a 
journalist in Sports Illustrated found it appropriate to compare the 
taste of lutefisk to the taste of wolf-urine - which he could not 
have done, unless he knew what the latter tasted like...






From margdean at erols.com  Mon Mar  5 14:27:31 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:27:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
References: <980451+nchl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA3A253.1465FFB3@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13614

Amy Z wrote:
> 
> Yael wrote:
> >
> > Also easy - haven't you ever had an accident when you picked your
> >ear, forgot about it, and sometime later put your pinkie in your
> >mouth? Didn't happen to me, but I watched my mother going through the
> >experience. I was about three, but i still remember it well... :)
> 
> Because you're all so wonderful and I trust you to be kind, I will
> boldly confess that I know what boogers (that's what we call 'em in
> the USA) and earwax taste like, and believe you me, earwax is worse.

Cats, however, love it.  At least mine does.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From margdean at erols.com  Mon Mar  5 14:37:15 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:37:15 -0500
Subject: SS's cruelty
References: <9803ng+a33i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA3A49B.7967BF8D@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13615

Amy Z wrote:

> Oh boy, dare I take on all these rabid Snapefans?  You all probably
> know some pretty scary potions.  Well, I can always drink out of a hip
> flask from now on.  I think Snape is good in the ultimate sense (i.e.
> is on the Right Side and will even sacrifice himself to defeat V), but
> I just can't buy the idea that he's really a nice guy.  There is no
> earthly reason why he has to treat his students so cruelly just to
> convince the world that he's a baddie.  Whenever I start to think that
> he's just a very grumpy person with an overly sarcastic sense of
> humor, I remember Trevor.  We're talking about someone who would force
> a student to kill his own pet.  

I agree with this, and it's part of why I =like= Snape as a
character.  (Not necessarily the same thing as liking him as a
person, but since I don't have to deal with him in Real Life,
that's irrelevant!)  He has definite virtues, among them courage,
competence, and a strong sense of professional ethics, but he
also has large character flaws:  he's envious, he holds grudges,
plays favorites, =hurts= people.  He is Not A Nice Person.  But
he =is= on the right side.  And I think that's a valuable
insight.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 14:36:18 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:36:18 -0000
Subject: SS's cruelty - Sirius again
In-Reply-To: <3AA3A49B.7967BF8D@erols.com>
Message-ID: <980892+tu17@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13616

Margaret wrote:
> 
> I agree with this, and it's part of why I =like= Snape as a
> character.  (Not necessarily the same thing as liking him as a
> person, but since I don't have to deal with him in Real Life,
> that's irrelevant!)  He has definite virtues, among them courage,
> competence, and a strong sense of professional ethics, but he
> also has large character flaws:  he's envious, he holds grudges,
> plays favorites, =hurts= people.  He is Not A Nice Person.  But
> he =is= on the right side.  And I think that's a valuable
> insight.
> 

I agree completely.  And I love Snape as a character also, for the 
same reasons.  (In real life, I wouldn't want to have him as a 
teacher or colleague, or run into him in a dark alley for that matter 
. . .)

I think Sirius's slashing of the Fat Lady is important for the same 
reason--that complexity is a part of why he's such a great character. 
 He has a good excuse, though, IMO, and is overall a kind and 
compassionate person, unlike SS.  And slashing a painting, even an 
animate one, isn't as bad as a lot of the things Snape does.  She can 
be repaired, and although she is embarrassed and scared, she doesn't 
seem to be in actual pain.

Slashing Ron's curtains is even more excusable.  I mean, he scared 
poor Ron senseless, but he was trying to get at Peter as fast as 
possible, and all he did was ruin some drapery.  We know he wouldn't 
have stabbed Ron.  (Broken his leg, yes, but he was nice about it. 
<g>)

Amy Z

(Singing her favorite part of Pippin's marvelous filk quietly to 
herself..."Oh, I can tell you why / I broke Ron's leg in two...")




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Mon Mar  5 13:40:33 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 05:40:33 -0800
Subject: OT-fic dervived from chat
References: <9803ng+a33i@eGroups.com> <3AA3A49B.7967BF8D@erols.com>
Message-ID: <008101c0a579$e5c6a2c0$1f4e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13617

Okay all you evil people from last night's chat.  *looks at Al*  I did it, I warned you I would after you started suggesting it.  Below is a link for "Voldemort's Harley Vacation".  Read if you want, it's stupid and slashy and has weird bits...but if you don't wand to read it there's a message for most of you at the very bottom so just skip the story and read the second A/N.

http://www.members.fanfiction.net:88/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=221913

Thanks,

Saitaina
http://www.angelfire.com/al/Diarys/index.html
The New and Improved Watcher's Diarys-Come, Enjoy the Musty Smell!
Home of BTVS, Angel, Anita Blake and one Harry Potter Fanfiction


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar  5 15:00:57 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:00:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
References: <97vku9+t42j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c0a585$165e8320$2614a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13618


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: naama_gat at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:06 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] another fun question - earwax? hmmm...


  I spent quite a while on Saturday morning, instead of doing all the things I should have 
  been doing, trying to decide what are my favorite HP magical objects or features. So, I thought I'd put it as a question for you guys here - what do you find most 
  imaginative, funny or otherwise exhilirating in HP? 

  WARNING to the squeamish - ignore next paragraph!

  On a different note, but related to Bertie's Beans - Does anybody else find it highly 
  suspicious that Dumbledore recognized the taste of earwax? Vomit I understand, even bogies I 
  understand (yuck), but earwax?!! 
  Naama

  I think that as a child, we inspect the smells and tastes of quite a lot of things that as adults, we would never admit to having experimented with. Most of us stop at the vile smell of things, while the more adventuresome have a go at a taste. How many of us know what blood tastes like?
  As for my favorite magical things, the mirror of Erised ... I can see myself in it, sitting in the darkened theatre, surrounded by my favorite HP merchandise, watching the 7th HP movie, while clutching an autographed copy of JKR's surprise 8th book, "Harry's Adventures After Hogwarts", while munching on some Bertie's Every Flavor Beans.

  My second favorite thing would have to be Floo Powder ... what a great way to travel! I live in Iowa, where you have to brave the cold, warm your car while scraping and defrosting your windows, before venturing out on icy, snowy roads while snow is falling and/or blowing. To just jump into the fireplace and arrive at the mom's would be divine. (I do wonder, though, what one could do to prevent being dropped in on by unexpected, unannounced visitors... like when the house is not up to snuff or you are entertaining *wink* *wink*)

  Doreen, whose house is always up to snuff, and who never entertains, and has a bridge to sell




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bohners at pobox.com  Mon Mar  5 15:07:02 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:07:02 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius
References: <97vh2k+2grp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <08b401c0a586$21bb5620$3f3cacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 13619

>> I still don't quite understand the slashing of the Fat Lady and Ron's bed
hangings... So I practically ignore those incidents, for all intents and
purposes, when thinking of Sirius's character. <<

> Well, I think it is important for the understanding of his character *not*
to ignore those incidents. [much good stuff about PTSD snipped] <

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.  I agree with you completely:  in fact,
the longest fic I've ever written centres around an ordinarily resilient and
strong character who has been emotionally and physically shattered by a
traumatic experience (shameless plug:  my Eleventh Doctor/Thea story
"Communion", at
http://www.members.fanfiction.net:88/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=213
953 -- though for full impact you should really read at least the preceding
story, "Sacrifice", first).

So I have no difficulty believing that Sirius is suffering from some serious
aftereffects of his ordeal, including sudden bursts of rage that might
indeed lead him to act in irrational and destructive ways.  However, what I
*didn't* understand, up until this morning, was why Sirius was trying so
hard to get into the Gryffindor dormitory, or why he would be carrying a
knife on his way to the dormitory in the first place, since he had never
intended to hurt Harry.  Especially, I couldn't figure why he would scare
the pants off Ron and slash up his bed hangings, if he was just looking for
Harry to try and talk to him.  These actions seemed to me not to fit at all
with Sirius's agenda, and I could only think that JKR had put them in there
just to make Sirius seem more scary and the case against him all the more
strong -- even though they made no sense.

Of course, it has now occurred to me that Sirius wasn't really planning to
*talk* to Harry at all, at least not yet.  He was trying to get into the
dormitory so he could find and kill Scabbers.  That's why he looked at Ron's
bed instead of Harry's and why he was so furious when he couldn't find or
get at Scabbers that he slashed up Ron's bed hangings.  Under those
circumstances, it's very natural that he would get furious and take out his
frustrations on the nearest inanimate object -- an over-reaction caused by
his PTSD.

So never mind.
--
The Marauder's Map
rebeccaj at pobox.com




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar  5 15:09:01 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:09:01 -0000
Subject: Boogers  (was earwax)
In-Reply-To: <980451+nchl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <980a6d+3tct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13620

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> boogers (that's what we call 'em in the USA) 

Which is why I have always wondered whether the Curse of the 
Bogies is really the Curse of the Boogers, rather than boogeymen 
or bad golf scores.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 15:13:06 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:13:06 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and the "Old Crowd
In-Reply-To: <3AA30109.6192480F@email.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <980ae2+b19f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13621

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Betty Landers <landers at e...> wrote:
> H
> What, in your opinion, does this little bit of information suggest 
about
> Fletcher?  Is it even the same person?  Why might Dumbledore trust 
him?
> D you think Fletcher has always mistrusted the ministry?  General
> speculation?
> OK, going back to the land of Lerkdom and waiting for your ideas.

I remember reading about Fletcher too.  I imagine him as a 
cantankerous elderly guy who's a general pain in the you know what, 
but probably hilarious too!
I'm looking forward to meeting him.
--J




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 15:20:25 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:20:25 -0000
Subject: another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
In-Reply-To: <97vku9+t42j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <980arp+j3on@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13622

 
> 
> So, I thought I'd put it as a question for you guys here - what do 
you find most 
> imaginative, funny or otherwise exhilirating in HP? 
> 
>

What a great question!
Hmmm, I love Harry's invisibility cloak (oh, the places I'd go!).  I 
also love the idea of moving photos and paintings you can communicate 
with (you'd always have company).  Having a wand (and the power to use 
it) would be super.  I've had dreams about that.

There are quite a few other things I could mention, but I'll stop 
here.  If I could just jump into the HP books and live there, I'd be a 
very happy Muggle indeed!
-




From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 15:26:22 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:26:22 -0000
Subject: What is a SHIP?
Message-ID: <980b6u+6h74@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13623

Please help!  Ever since I took that 'How obsessed are you' quiz I've 
been tortured with my 49% rating.  I skipped the 'ship' questions 
because I don't know what that is.
Can someone please explain to me what a 'ship' is?  And tell me again 
where I can take the quiz to prove my dedication to HP?
Thanks!
--Je




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Mon Mar  5 10:56:54 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:56:54 EST5EDT
Subject: Casting question
Message-ID: <1089E34657A@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13624

First off, I went to see Chocolat last night and made sure it was 
really close to when See Spot Run was playing....so about 6 of us 
sneeked into See Spot Run and grabbed seats in the mid-section.  
Harry was the first preview they showed.  IT LOOKS SO 
DIFFERENT ON A BIG SCREEN!  It was like watching it for the 
first time.  Wow!  It was sweet though.  All these people gasped 
when it started.  I guess some didn't know about it coming out as a 
movie (*deer caught in the headlight look*).

Anyway, as soon as the preview was over, we jumped up and left.  
I heard this woman say "Well...they came in here just for the 
preview!"  Well...DUH!  :-)

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has heard who they casted as 
Bane, Ronan and Firenze?

Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From katie at vquill.com  Mon Mar  5 15:56:03 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 07:56:03 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SB's sanity-SS's cruelty-DM's tie-DH's punishment-analysis
In-Reply-To: <9803ng+a33i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010305075344.00b0a7a0@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13625

At 01:18 PM 3/5/01 +0000, you wrote:
>
>I am not saying this to downplay depression in any way--I know it is
>sheer torture and can kill Muggles as surely as Dementors can kill
>wizards--but I do think what the Dementors do is beyond what we
>generally call depression.  I would call it despair:  the absolute
>lack of any happiness and any sense that future happiness is possible.
>  Maybe at its worst major depression *is* despair...

Um, I'd agree with that. Depression can suck every last happy thought out 
of you. People generally consider suicide just because they have the 
absolute lack of happiness and any sense that future happiness is possible. 
That's how suicide can seem like "a good idea".

I think Sirius lived through sheer determination -- he knew that Peter was 
still out there and would do bad things. It's not a happy thought. :P

-Katie



From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar  5 15:35:47 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:35:47 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
References: <20010304212304.37A382742@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <3AA3B253.FFA1CAEA@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13626

Hi --

Continue to read R/H shippers.  Believe it or not, I'm largely on your
side on this one.  <g>

Star wrote:

> Ron thought of Hermione as a last resort, if he liked her why didn't
> he ask her before hand, he could have 'pretended' he wanted to go as
> friends but no, he didn't even think of her till it was too late.

Well, he's 14 yrs old, and I don't think he knew on any conscious level
that he had feelings for Hermione.  He's just sort of bumbling along
(like Harry) into the whole "girls are more than just the opposite sex"
idea.  I don't think that, at the end of GoF, Ron even yet really knows
what's going on as far as his feelings go.  He was astonished that she
was going with someone else, but I think this is more to do with his
perception that she was just "good old Hermione" who wasn't really a
"girl" in his mind until it was becoming clear that he was going to have
trouble getting a date at the 11th hour.

Kathy said:

> JKR herself has said that Ron doesn't know what's going on yet.  I think
> it's pretty clear he just hasn't admitted his feelings, even to himself, yet.
>
I agree with Kathy on that one!  I'm *not*, however, expressing any
agreement with the position that JKR has said that it *will* be R/H or
any of that nonsense.  Her statement was "Yes, there's something going
on between them, Ron just doesn't know it yet."  I still say that it's
arguable that the "something going on" is one-sided.  I think JKR's
statement was sufficiently ambiguous. But, it's clear that Ron just
hasn't admitted his own feelings.  We're in agreement on that much
anyway.

> Also, Ron didn't seem mad that she was going with some one else before
> the dance at all, if it would have been just another student I don't
> think ROn would have gotten mad.

I agree with Kathy that his repeated questioning of her was not just
casual curiosity.

> I think Ron got mad b/c he was jealous not of not going with Hermione
> but b/c Hermione got to go with his 'hero'.  Ron couldn't believe that
> Hermion went with Krum and she wouldn't even tell him, this is the guy
> he wanted an autograph from and here his friend his going to the dance
> with Krum and didn't even tell him.  I see Ron's anger and jealousy
> coming not from like for Hermione but his like (hero type peoples) of
> Krum.

I do think it's interesting that the fact that she went with Krum was a
particular sticking point for Ron.  I think that's a good observation.
It doesn't negate Ron's own feelings for her though; I think it just
made the situation worse than if she'd gone with Neville or someone
else.  Hmm ....now I'm curious to know what would have happened in this
case:

*****************************

"Hermione, you are a girl .. . . " [changed this line somewhat -- assume
Neville didn't ask Hermione first -- but he did ask Ginny]

"Oh, well spotted," she said acidly.

"Well -- you can come with one of us!"

"What as a last resort?" Hermione retorted furiously.

"Oh come on," Ron said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going to
look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has ...."

Hermione's eyes were still flashing dangerously but she shrugged
slightly.  "Fine," she muttered stiffly.

"Right," said Ron quickly.  "So, Ginny you can go with Harry and . . . .
"

"I can't," Ginny muttered, looking utterly miserable.  [I'm assuming
here that Neville asked Ginny as a first choice rather than 2nd
choice].  She exits, looking dejected.

Harry turned to Hermione.  "Great, so you'll come with me then?" Harry
said, relieved that his search for the required dance partner was over.
"I have to have a partner, remember?" he muttered to Ron.  [......]

**********************

What would Ron have thought if Hermione had gone with Harry?  One point
I'll make at this stage is that it is interesting that Ron does *not*
specifically ask her to ball.  He at first says, "Well, you can come
with one of us."  If she had said fine, it would be logical that she
would have gone with Harry because of his heightened need for a
partner.  Even Ron would have seen that.  Later in the conversation, he
says, "Okay, okay, *we* know you're a girl.  ... That do?  Will you come
now?"  He's *still* not out & out asking her to be *his* date.

I like Bbennet's observation that he may have, in the back of his mind,
assumed that they would both go stag and "hang out" at the Ball.

Anyway, back to the Hermione goes with Harry scenario.  I think Ron's
reactions might have been very interesting, but I don't think the
post-Ball row would have occurred if she'd gone with Harry.  Reason: I'm
still not convinced that Ron said anything personal to Hermione in the
common room.  I think he continued to fling the "consorting with the
enemy" stance at her just as he had at the Ball (of course, this is just
masking his real feelings but I think he doesn't recognize his feelings
for what they are).  I've said many times before that we don't know what
Ron said to her before Harry enters the room & overhears the last bit of
their row.  But, consider this (a point I don't think I've made):

["Well," he spluttered, looking thunderstruck.  "well --- that just
proves ---- completely missed the point."]

Okay R/H types: if Ron *did* say something personal ("why didn't you go
to the Ball with me rather than Krum?"), why in the world would he think
she'd missed the point?  Why would he look thunderstruck?

No -- it seems to me that he said pretty much what he said to her at the
Ball, "You're consorting with the enemy by going with Krum.  How could
you do that to Hogwarts?  To Harry?"  The dialogue we hear from that
point forward makes sense with that sort of an argument.  It does *not*
make sense to me that he said something like "I asked you -- why didn't
you break your date to go with me?" or anything even remotely personal.
First, he really *didn't* ask her to be *his* date, and second, I can't
imagine why he would say that she'd missed the point if he did say
something personal to her.

Harry's observation about Hermione getting the point more than Ron had
is, I think, just making it more clear that Harry himself has figured
out that Ron likes Hermione.  But, her feelings are still a mystery to
us all.

> ROn wa This is just part of an argument at one sense that is used for
> supporting ROn likes Hermione.  I have a lot of arguments against this
> I suppose b/c I've been in this type of thing with a guy friend of
> mind.  He acts towards me just like ROn acts towards Hermione and I
> know he doesn't have a crush one me for a fact so I suppose that tends
> to reflect my views.

Well, to most of us who have fully traversed those adolescent years
(long ago for many of us), it does appear pretty clear that Ron likes
Hermione.  <shares Bbennett's wink to Star about her "friend">

But, you can't look at the Yule Ball incident in isolation.  His
feelings have been becoming increasingly apparent, starting back in CoS
actually.

See -- I do believe that canon supports the notion that Ron likes
Hermione.  I just don't believe her feelings are clear either way.  <g>

For once the R/H shippers shouldn't be too up & arms about one of my
shipping posts --

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar  5 15:43:55 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:43:55 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Re: What is a SHIP?
References: <980b6u+6h74@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA3B43B.6DEE644B@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13627

Hi --

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:

> Please help!  Ever since I took that 'How obsessed are you' quiz I've
> been tortured with my 49% rating.  I skipped the 'ship' questions
> because I don't know what that is.  Can someone please explain to me
> what a 'ship' is?  And tell me again where I can take the quiz to
> prove my dedication to HP?

An excellent time for an ADMIN reminder from the Moderator Team for
everyone (especially the newbies) to please (please, please, please)
*read* the VFAQs (Very Frequently Asked Questions) in the Files section
as well as the Netiquette file.  We've gone to alot of trouble to be
sure that questions that get asked frequently can be answered without
posting a message to the main group.  There's also a file with
commonly-used acronyms.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-shorthand.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

Look for more ADMIN messages this week -- we've got lots of new things
we'd like to introduce.

Penny
The Moderator Team


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 16:28:01 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 16:28:01 -0000
Subject: SB's sanity
In-Reply-To: <9803ng+a33i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <980eqh+3f09@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13628

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> The worst thing for Sirius himself seems to be his guilt.  It is 
> positively suicidal for him to say to Harry (when H first accuses 
> him), "I don't deny it," but he does it because he is so tortured 
by 
> guilt about their deaths.  This is one thing the Dementors seemed 
to 
> be able to inflict on him that he found impossible to shake.
> 
> Sorry, that was kind of rambling.  I can't quite work out 
> myself what I'm trying to say.

Snip

Your overview of Sirius' sanity was not at all rambling.  I think you 
summed up the subject quite nicely.  

The guilt Sirius feels regarding the Potters' deaths doesn't seem to 
have lessened in GoF.  I'm thinking of the scene in Dumbledore's 
office where Harry recounts his experience with Priori Incantatem.  
At the beginning of this scene, Sirius has his hand on Harry's 
shoulder, a gesture of support and comfort.  By the time Harry 
mentions his parents' appearances, Sirius has released his grip on 
Harry and has hidden his face in his hands. 

This guilt is a huge motivating factor for Sirius.  Not only does he 
want to help and protect Harry because Harry is his godson, but I 
think he also feels that there is a debt to be repayed.  Sirius feels 
he failed James and Lily, so he's going to make damned sure he 
doesn't fail Harry.

Marianne





From bohners at pobox.com  Mon Mar  5 16:57:14 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:57:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SS's cruelty
References: <9803ng+a33i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <092f01c0a595$7c89f520$3f3cacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 13629

I wrote:

>> I'm interested in Snape because I think he is actually a good boy ... who
is willing to ... pretend very convincingly to be ... a bad boy in the
service of
Dumbledore and of the greater good... I believe that Snape's behaviour to
date has been largely a theatrical performance. <<

Amy Z replied:

> I think Snape is good in the ultimate sense (i.e. is on the Right Side and
will even sacrifice himself to defeat V), but I just can't buy the idea that
he's really a nice guy.  There is no earthly reason why he has to treat his
students so cruelly just to convince the world that he's a baddie. <

I don't think Snape is "nice", even at his best:  and I don't personally
agree with his methods.  But I think the cruelty he shows to Harry and the
other Gryffindors like Neville is something he believes is actually
necessary.

I think Snape really *was* that cruel when he was at Hogwarts, and
especially when he was a Death Eater, before he repented and joined the good
guys; so he scarcely has to think about it in order to play his part
convincingly.  And I think that although he might not absolutely *have* to
be as cruel as he sometimes is in order to convince the world he's a baddie,
he is determined not to leave the DE's (and DE's in training, like Draco)
any possible shadow of doubt -- and if that means Neville's toad gets
poisoned along the way, so be it.  (I think he knew that he would very
likely not have to go that far, with someone like Hermione around to help
Neville out; but he was still prepared to carry through on his threat
without hesitation if need be.)

IMO, Snape's commitment to his role is so absolute that he won't settle for
merely keeping up appearances:  he's ready to seize every available
opportunity to underline and reinforce his reputation as a bad guy in front
of his audience (the Slytherins in general and Draco Malfoy in particular).
What do you bet that Snape deliberately planned to have the Slytherins and
Gryffindors always do Double Potions together for just that reason?

The stakes for which Snape is playing are so high, I think, that he's
prepared to be ruthless in smaller matters, to make sure his reputation as
an evil git is airtight.  And if that seems unlikely to you, consider the
actions of (not) Mad-Eye Moody in GoF, who was aiming for the opposite
effect.  Some of his "good" actions were just as excessive and unnecessary
to his alibi as anything Snape ever did (or threatened to do) on the bad
side.  But not-Moody was determined to maintain and fortify the illusion of
authenticity at all costs, and it worked -- or nearly did, anyway.

Maybe I've been reading too much Dorothy Dunnett, but I think every one of
Snape's actions to date can bear some other interpretation than him simply
enjoying being nasty for nastiness' sake.

Uh-oh.  Now we're all in trouble:

IF DOROTHY DUNNETT WROTE THE HP BOOKS...
...Harry's glasses would be bifocals.
...By four books into the series, Harry would have more scars than Mad-Eye
Moody.
...Snape, driven by self-loathing at the cruelty he must show to the
Gryffindors, would be taking massive doses of opium and ranting in his
sleep.
and
...In the giant chess game at the end of PS, Ron would have DIED.

(Apologies to those who have no idea what I'm talking about, but I couldn't
resist.)
--
The Marauder's Map
rebeccaj at pobox.com




From bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr  Mon Mar  5 16:57:02 2001
From: bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr (bob.mornington at wanadoo.fr)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 16:57:02 -0000
Subject: TRAILER: urgent help needed!
In-Reply-To: <97v5h5+7io1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <980ggu+eoan@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13630

Well it looks like someone posted here in the FILES section, but I 
had to download it to my disk to get it to run properly with Real 
Player


Wr--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Justin Raines" <rainesj at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Elizabeth Clayton" <nizbet_noni at h...> 
> wrote:
> > Hi all, I know the trailer has been done to death, but I've been 
> > computerless for the last few days and haven't seen it yet. I've 
> tried a 
> > couple of different places, but none of the ones I've found have 
> good 
> > quality. Which site is the best to get it from (I want to save it 
> to my 
> > computer as well, if possible) and which player (ie, Windows , 
> > Quicktime etc) is best?
> > Thanks heaps,
> > Liz
> > 
> > -----
> > 'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry.
> > 'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second 
> cousin who's 
> > an accountant, but we never talk about him.'
> > -----
> 
> 
> What sites have you tried?  There are lots of places where you can 
> view it.  The official site from WB first.  Second you can download 
> it from http://www.darkhorizons.com  If not then 
> http://www.comingsoon.net  If these still don't work for you let me 
> know and I can give you more sites or email it to you.
> 
> Justin




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 17:17:21 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:17:21 -0000
Subject: Ship?? Me and ... Sirius or Snape?
Message-ID: <980hn1+ksib@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13631

All:

This may be sort of funny, but I never thought Snape was terribly 
sexy. I got **shivers** over Sirius and Lupin. Good guys with a bit 
of bad... ooooh! So sexy! Both good to kids, but not goodie-goodie to 
the point of irrationality. Both capable of friendship, both with 
some trust issues and personal problems.

And let me preface what I am about to say with a comment about 
Rickman. I've seen him in LOTS of stuff and he's quite good, but he 
never struck me as particularly sexy. 

But the trailer has made clear to me the error of my ways. Alan 
Rickman has Snape down, no doubt about that creepy look in the 
trailer. But he's also dead sexy as Snape. Now, maybe I just like bad 
guys-who-aren't- really- that- bad. But seriusly, (no pun intended) 
Snape is a hottie. I can't wait to re-read the books with new eyes. 
Snape fans unite and tell me why I have the hots for a man who is 
twice my age (It's not rickman, again, it's the Snape charachter!)!
HELP!

Heather M.




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Mon Mar  5 17:32:06 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:32:06 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <3AA3B253.FFA1CAEA@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <980iim+kr33@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13632

Oh dear, I fear that I've opened a can of worms here but oh well.  I 
know that everyone disagrees with me, that's why I started this 
simply to see if one other person thought along similar lines, I 
guess not, oh well I'm used to being the odd ball.  One reason why I 
think that we differ so much is that I'm bot an adult, yes I know 
there are otehr teenagers on here but for the most part it's adults.  
I'm only 15 (16 in May YAY!) so I can see other sides to what is 
happening to the characters not to mention I've been in wierd 
relationships enables me be different and see things as most don't.  
Sense I'm about the same age as the characters and have been 
in `weird relationships' and all my good friends are guys (and they 
always want me to do their work, geeeeeze I am a lot like Hermione, I 
even have bushy brown hair) so my views are tainted.  You've all been 
saying things along the line of  `Ron is a 14 year old boys he 
doesn't know he has feelings for Hermione, he hasn't figured it out 
yet' well I suppose sense I view Ron as being emotionally imature
(less then Hermione and Harry) that could be but I don't really see 
that sense I have many 14 year old guy friends who know exactly 
what's going on, they know who they like and some even have steady 
girls friends, however Jo is the writer and as she is an adult and 
didn't grow up in the atmoshpere I do where I have friends not much 
older then me already engaged and I fact I have a 17 year old friend 
who is already married so she wont write the characters in that sorta 
atmosphere, besides I don't know how coomon that is, maybe it's just 
this town that's weird.  I will always persieve the wierd and and 
take different opinions, I'll try to explain them to you but I don't 
expect you to agree.  Even if Ron does like Hermione only some of the 
evidence that has been offered in support of this could convience me 
so, there will always be certain `scenes' that I will percieve 
differently.  I think that in realness Ron would be more in tune with 
his feelings judging by the people around me but I know `we' are 
thought of as younger minded then what we are and I'm sure the same 
goes with how Jo views `us' therefor that is how it's written in her 
books.  Jo might be leading to Ron liking Hermione but I'm looking at 
it not as a story written by an adult but how I would see most things 
if they were really happening around me, I suppose if it was real 
though and I was there I'd be able to tell a lot easier by 
expressions and such and I'd be seeing it through my eyes and not 
Harry's.  Well I've got to go before the teacher catches me on the 
internet, I'll talk more on this subject later, I don't expect anyone 
to agree, in fact I know that you all don't agree and will argue 
against me, these are my views and I'll explain them they aren't 
meant to be a counter argument trying to be persesive but hey, I like 
debates, so respond away, I'll be happy to see the response.     

~Star~

Smile Everyone!!!! And Be Happy 





--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Continue to read R/H shippers.  Believe it or not, I'm largely on 
your
> side on this one.  <g>
> 
> Star wrote:
> 
> > Ron thought of Hermione as a last resort, if he liked her why 
didn't
> > he ask her before hand, he could have 'pretended' he wanted to go 
as
> > friends but no, he didn't even think of her till it was too late.
> 
> Well, he's 14 yrs old, and I don't think he knew on any conscious 
level
> that he had feelings for Hermione.  He's just sort of bumbling along
> (like Harry) into the whole "girls are more than just the opposite 
sex"
> idea.  I don't think that, at the end of GoF, Ron even yet really 
knows
> what's going on as far as his feelings go.  He was astonished that 
she
> was going with someone else, but I think this is more to do with his
> perception that she was just "good old Hermione" who wasn't really a
> "girl" in his mind until it was becoming clear that he was going to 
have
> trouble getting a date at the 11th hour.
> 
> Kathy said:
> 
> > JKR herself has said that Ron doesn't know what's going on yet.  
I think
> > it's pretty clear he just hasn't admitted his feelings, even to 
himself, yet.
> >
> I agree with Kathy on that one!  I'm *not*, however, expressing any
> agreement with the position that JKR has said that it *will* be R/H 
or
> any of that nonsense.  Her statement was "Yes, there's something 
going
> on between them, Ron just doesn't know it yet."  I still say that 
it's
> arguable that the "something going on" is one-sided.  I think JKR's
> statement was sufficiently ambiguous. But, it's clear that Ron just
> hasn't admitted his own feelings.  We're in agreement on that much
> anyway.
> 
> > Also, Ron didn't seem mad that she was going with some one else 
before
> > the dance at all, if it would have been just another student I 
don't
> > think ROn would have gotten mad.
> 
> I agree with Kathy that his repeated questioning of her was not just
> casual curiosity.
> 
> > I think Ron got mad b/c he was jealous not of not going with 
Hermione
> > but b/c Hermione got to go with his 'hero'.  Ron couldn't believe 
that
> > Hermion went with Krum and she wouldn't even tell him, this is 
the guy
> > he wanted an autograph from and here his friend his going to the 
dance
> > with Krum and didn't even tell him.  I see Ron's anger and 
jealousy
> > coming not from like for Hermione but his like (hero type 
peoples) of
> > Krum.
> 
> I do think it's interesting that the fact that she went with Krum 
was a
> particular sticking point for Ron.  I think that's a good 
observation.
> It doesn't negate Ron's own feelings for her though; I think it just
> made the situation worse than if she'd gone with Neville or someone
> else.  Hmm ....now I'm curious to know what would have happened in 
this
> case:
> 
> *****************************
> 
> "Hermione, you are a girl .. . . " [changed this line somewhat -- 
assume
> Neville didn't ask Hermione first -- but he did ask Ginny]
> 
> "Oh, well spotted," she said acidly.
> 
> "Well -- you can come with one of us!"
> 
> "What as a last resort?" Hermione retorted furiously.
> 
> "Oh come on," Ron said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going 
to
> look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has ...."
> 
> Hermione's eyes were still flashing dangerously but she shrugged
> slightly.  "Fine," she muttered stiffly.
> 
> "Right," said Ron quickly.  "So, Ginny you can go with Harry 
and . . . .
> "
> 
> "I can't," Ginny muttered, looking utterly miserable.  [I'm assuming
> here that Neville asked Ginny as a first choice rather than 2nd
> choice].  She exits, looking dejected.
> 
> Harry turned to Hermione.  "Great, so you'll come with me then?" 
Harry
> said, relieved that his search for the required dance partner was 
over.
> "I have to have a partner, remember?" he muttered to Ron.  [......]
> 
> **********************
> 
> What would Ron have thought if Hermione had gone with Harry?  One 
point
> I'll make at this stage is that it is interesting that Ron does 
*not*
> specifically ask her to ball.  He at first says, "Well, you can come
> with one of us."  If she had said fine, it would be logical that she
> would have gone with Harry because of his heightened need for a
> partner.  Even Ron would have seen that.  Later in the 
conversation, he
> says, "Okay, okay, *we* know you're a girl.  ... That do?  Will you 
come
> now?"  He's *still* not out & out asking her to be *his* date.
> 
> I like Bbennet's observation that he may have, in the back of his 
mind,
> assumed that they would both go stag and "hang out" at the Ball.
> 
> Anyway, back to the Hermione goes with Harry scenario.  I think 
Ron's
> reactions might have been very interesting, but I don't think the
> post-Ball row would have occurred if she'd gone with Harry.  
Reason: I'm
> still not convinced that Ron said anything personal to Hermione in 
the
> common room.  I think he continued to fling the "consorting with the
> enemy" stance at her just as he had at the Ball (of course, this is 
just
> masking his real feelings but I think he doesn't recognize his 
feelings
> for what they are).  I've said many times before that we don't know 
what
> Ron said to her before Harry enters the room & overhears the last 
bit of
> their row.  But, consider this (a point I don't think I've made):
> 
> ["Well," he spluttered, looking thunderstruck.  "well --- that just
> proves ---- completely missed the point."]
> 
> Okay R/H types: if Ron *did* say something personal ("why didn't 
you go
> to the Ball with me rather than Krum?"), why in the world would he 
think
> she'd missed the point?  Why would he look thunderstruck?
> 
> No -- it seems to me that he said pretty much what he said to her 
at the
> Ball, "You're consorting with the enemy by going with Krum.  How 
could
> you do that to Hogwarts?  To Harry?"  The dialogue we hear from that
> point forward makes sense with that sort of an argument.  It does 
*not*
> make sense to me that he said something like "I asked you -- why 
didn't
> you break your date to go with me?" or anything even remotely 
personal.
> First, he really *didn't* ask her to be *his* date, and second, I 
can't
> imagine why he would say that she'd missed the point if he did say
> something personal to her.
> 
> Harry's observation about Hermione getting the point more than Ron 
had
> is, I think, just making it more clear that Harry himself has 
figured
> out that Ron likes Hermione.  But, her feelings are still a mystery 
to
> us all.
> 
> > ROn wa This is just part of an argument at one sense that is used 
for
> > supporting ROn likes Hermione.  I have a lot of arguments against 
this
> > I suppose b/c I've been in this type of thing with a guy friend of
> > mind.  He acts towards me just like ROn acts towards Hermione and 
I
> > know he doesn't have a crush one me for a fact so I suppose that 
tends
> > to reflect my views.
> 
> Well, to most of us who have fully traversed those adolescent years
> (long ago for many of us), it does appear pretty clear that Ron 
likes
> Hermione.  <shares Bbennett's wink to Star about her "friend">
> 
> But, you can't look at the Yule Ball incident in isolation.  His
> feelings have been becoming increasingly apparent, starting back in 
CoS
> actually.
> 
> See -- I do believe that canon supports the notion that Ron likes
> Hermione.  I just don't believe her feelings are clear either way.  
<g>
> 
> For once the R/H shippers shouldn't be too up & arms about one of my
> shipping posts --
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 17:33:01 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:33:01 EST
Subject: My Personal Cast (was Re: Ship?? Me and ... Sirius or Snape?)
Message-ID: <17.12748391.27d527cd@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13633

Snape *is* a hottie!  LOL, I liked him from the first, since after reading 
the PS/SS book and coming to the conclusion (hopless romantic that I am) that 
Snape might have been in love with Lily.  There is no basis for this in the 
books, except in my own imagination. 

I had originally had Snape cast as either Alan Rickman (I'm a huge fan of 
his) or Ralph Fiennes (ever see him in Wuthering Heights?).  However, I've 
now cast in my RF as Sirius, with Jeremy Northam as a runner up. Now onto 
Remus (sigh).  Rupert Everett would be perfect, I think.   Alan Cumming would 
be an excellent Wormtail, he has that "ratty" look anyway.  Can't seem to 
think of a James...although for some inexplicable reason, I have Amy Weiz or 
Kate Winslet in mind for Lily.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Mar  5 18:03:05 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:03:05 -0700
Subject: The Ghostly Potters
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEKDDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13634

JKR has promised that she will reveal why some people become ghosts and
others don't.  What if Harry's parents are ghosts who are tied to Godric's
Hollow?  What if some time in the next 3 books he actually visits his old
home (or what's left of it) and discovers his parents waiting there.  He's
already seen them in the Mirror of Erised, and they even SPOKE to him and
helped him fight off Voldemort in GoF, although they weren't permanent
ghosts.

I've always found it strange that Harry has a remarkable lack of
investigative curiosity concerning the death of his parents.  He's
apparently never done any research into old news items, or talked much to
older people about his parents; he was apparently even unaware of HOW they
had been killed until Moody's first DADA lesson for 4th-Years when the Avada
Kedavra curse was demonstrated.

Maybe the reason is that Rowling is saving that discovery until some time in
the future when
Harry must go and talk to them, discover just what it was they did for a
living, and why Voldemort came to kill James and Harry.  What if the Potters
can't be released from their place of death until Harry kills Voldemort --
imagine him knowing that if he destroys Lord V, his parents will disappear
as well.

Anyway, it just struck me that JKR must have some serious reason why the
ghosts of dead people do, or do not, linger.

What do the ghosts of Nearly Headless Nick, The Fat Friar, The Bloody Baron,
and Myrtle have in common?  Why are they at Hogwarts?  Someone already
mentioned that the ghosts at Nick's Deathday Party obviously can move around
the country, since they are not all permanent residents of the school.

SML

==============================================
"Very well," said Madame Maxime, bowing
slightly. "Will you please inform zis 'Agrid
zat ze 'orses drink only single-malt whiskey?"
     --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
==============================================




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 18:17:05 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:17:05 -0000
Subject: The Ghostly Potters
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEKDDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <980l71+tf31@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13635

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> JKR has promised that she will reveal why some people become ghosts 
and
> others don't.  What if Harry's parents are ghosts who are tied to 
Godric's
> Hollow?   [snip]
> What do the ghosts of Nearly Headless Nick, The Fat Friar, The 
Bloody Baron,
> and Myrtle have in common?  Why are they at Hogwarts?

Good questions from the good sister.  I think JKR sort of addressed 
them at an interview.  Someone less senile than I will probably 
remember better, but didnt JKR say specifically that

(1) Happy people do not become ghosts; and
(2) James and Lily ARE not ghosts.

Of course, I could be making that up, if so, just lock me back in my 
cage.

--Joywitch






From bray.262 at osu.edu  Mon Mar  5 13:48:29 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:48:29 EST5EDT
Subject: slightly OT: Today on MSNBC
Message-ID: <10B7AC1198B@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13636

Saw this and thought I'd share.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/538550.asp


Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From msl at fc.net  Mon Mar  5 18:53:55 2001
From: msl at fc.net (Marvin Long, Jr.)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:53:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Sirius and the thirst for revenge
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10103051239080.94163-100000@freeside.fc.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13637


I wonder how much Sirius's desire for revenge on Pettigrew would have
helped him stay sane in Azkaban.  The desire for revenge is not a happy
one, not for somebody who is essentially a good person, but it can be a
*sustaining* emotion.  Dementors wouldn't take one's thirst for vengeance,
recognizing it as a negative and self-destructive emotion.  But for the
person who desires revenge above all things, it gets elevated to a kind of
holy purpose, a cause for which to live, and if Sirius enshrined revenge
in his consciousness as a just and crucial goal, perhaps that was enough
to help him get through.

This raises a question about Voldemort's followers, however.  The more
bourgeois types would succumb to Azkaban quickly.  What what about the
really, really, nasty bastards?  What if Azkaban has a "cell block"
devoted to a more psychotic class of wizard criminal that grows stronger
in hatred and rage under the dementors' influence, not less?

Assuming Voldemort succeeds in recruiting the dementors, what happens when
the really hard cases escape from Azkaban?

Marvin Long
Austin, Texas




From larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 19:00:34 2001
From: larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com (larryngocnguyen at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:00:34 -0000
Subject: (trailer) question on the Great Hall
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010303093704.00a40700@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <980noi+6gl4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13638

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Katie Kearns <katie at v...> wrote:
> At 02:59 PM 3/2/01 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >
> >As for the now infamous Scream scene... There is not a scene where 
this
> >happens. At all. So this means they have changed the script. I 
seriously
> >doubt that this is the ghost-in-the-Great-Hall thing, simply 
because they
> >weren't standing together at that point
> >
> >MC/Blythe Spirit/Dervish
> 
> 
> Yeah, I don't see this actually happening... It's really the only 
part of 
> the trailer I don't like. I think it's definitely where Chris 
Columbus' 
> "Home Alone" feel is shining through. (And sorry, but I hate that 
sort of 
> thing. :D)
> 
> It looks cartoonish, not realistic.  There *are* points in the book 
that 
> could look cartoonish (say, Ron and his slugs for example...) but 
this 
> scene just really sorta bothered me :/
> 
> -Katie


I think the scene comes from when Ron, Harry and Hermione finally 
discover the three-headed beast.
         Larry 




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Mon Mar  5 19:04:53 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:04:53 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SB's sanity
In-Reply-To: <9803ng+a33i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKKEIBCAAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 13639


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Z [mailto:aiz24 at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 2:19 PM

> Can you really survive for 12 years without any happy thoughts at all?

Well, I don't know, but I have to believe it. Dementors seem to suck any
happy thought you could have out of you. I don't deny that Sirius is
an exceptionally strong personality (one of the reasons why I like him so
much), but I don't believe that this is what saved him from the Dementors.
It just helped him to survive.

> I am not saying this to downplay depression in any way--I know it is
> sheer torture and can kill Muggles as surely as Dementors can kill
> wizards--but I do think what the Dementors do is beyond what we
> generally call depression.

I agree here, but that's my point: I think that Sirius' depression wasn't
Dementor-induced in the first place but a result of the trauma he had
suffered (the deaths of his best friends for which he felt responsible).

> So, can "not having any happy memories" be a protection?  The
> Dementors do two things:  they suck out all the happy thoughts and
> they also force you to relive terrible memories.  JKR has a scarily
> sharp imagination; this latter is one of the worst tortures I can
> imagine.

Yes, but she hasn't exactly invented this: PTSD does the same thing
in flashbacks and nightmares. I think that Sirius didn't need the presence
of Dementors to relive his worst memories, and that's why the Dementors
couldn't affect him like they would affect anyone else. His non-magical
depression protected him against the magical depression the Dementors
would normally cause. Maybe this doesn't make sense to you, but I
believe that this is what has made him somewhat immune. He had lost
this immunity when the Dementors encircled him near the lake at
Hogwarts at the end of PoA, remember that he was affected in the
same way as Harry was, he lost consciousness. This isn't surprising,
because for the first time in 13 years he had new hope. He thought
that his name would probably be cleared soon and that he could start
a normal life with Harry.

> In that sense, an innocent man will have comforts that the guilty
> don't.

Of course you have a point here. And I think that this is why he
didn't try to commit suicide (even though the chances of committing
suicide in Azkaban are pretty low, the only possibility I see is to
stop eating). The knowledge that he was innocent kept him sane
and helped him to survive, but it was not the cause of his immunity
to the Dementors (IMHO).

> The worst thing for Sirius himself seems to be his guilt.  It is
> positively suicidal for him to say to Harry (when H first accuses
> him), "I don't deny it," but he does it because he is so tortured by
> guilt about their deaths.  This is one thing the Dementors seemed to
> be able to inflict on him that he found impossible to shake.

I have to disagree another time. I don't believe that the Dementors
inflicted the guilt on him. Feelings of guilt are a classic PTSD symptom,
too, often there is unresolved grief involved like in Sirius' case, too. I don't
want to say that Dementors cannot cause all this, I just think that
they aren't the cause of his depression and guilt. Of course you
don't have to subscribe to this theory, but Sirius' mental disorder
isn't a magical one IMHO. I think you cannot recover from
Dementor-induced, magical insanity, at least that's how I understood
it. And Sirius is recovering rather well, so I tend to believe in the
PTSD theory which explains his symptoms and behavior without
any problems. *And* it is reversible.

Monika

Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html




From bbennett at joymail.com  Mon Mar  5 19:07:51 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:07:51 -0000
Subject: SHIP: re: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <3AA3B253.FFA1CAEA@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <980o67+4es6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13640


Penny wrote:  

Hmm ....now I'm curious to know what would have happened in this case:

> *****************************
> 
> "Hermione, you are a girl .. . . " [changed this line somewhat -- 
>assume Neville didn't ask Hermione first -- but he did ask Ginny]
> 
> "Oh, well spotted," she said acidly.
> 
> "Well -- you can come with one of us!"
> 
> "What as a last resort?" Hermione retorted furiously.
> 
> "Oh come on," Ron said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going 
>to look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has ...."
> 
> Hermione's eyes were still flashing dangerously but she shrugged
> slightly.  "Fine," she muttered stiffly.
> 
> "Right," said Ron quickly.  "So, Ginny you can go with Harry 
>and . . . .
> "
> 
> "I can't," Ginny muttered, looking utterly miserable.  [I'm assuming
> here that Neville asked Ginny as a first choice rather than 2nd
> choice].  She exits, looking dejected.
> 
> Harry turned to Hermione.  "Great, so you'll come with me then?" 
>Harry said, relieved that his search for the required dance partner 
>was over.
> "I have to have a partner, remember?" he muttered to Ron.  [......]
> 
> **********************
 
> What would Ron have thought if Hermione had gone with Harry?  One 
point I'll make at this stage is that it is interesting that Ron does 
*not*specifically ask her to ball.  He at first says, "Well, you can 
come with one of us."  If she had said fine, it would be logical that 
she
> would have gone with Harry because of his heightened need for a
> partner.  Even Ron would have seen that.  Later in the 
conversation, he says, "Okay, okay, *we* know you're a girl.  ... 
That do?  Will you come now?"  He's *still* not out & out asking her 
to be *his* date.

At this point, I think Ron thought (or it may be more accurate to say 
didn't *think*), that Ginny could go with Harry and he could go with 
Hermione. As Penny pointed out, he never actually asked Hermione, and 
this would in a way absolve him of that task ("Well, I had to go with 
her, I couldn't very well go with my sister!"). Ginny already having 
a date messed that up. It would have been quite interesting if the 
scene had worked out as Penny just described. My interpretation of 
Harry is that he recognizes Ron's interest in Hermione, but not until 
a bit later (Ron asking Hermione repeatedly about her date, Ron 
pitching a fit over Viktor, Ron pouting during much of the dance). I 
don't think Harry would have asked had he thought Ron liked Hermione 
(keeping in mind my stance that the book is limited omniscience 
Harry's POV, and we would know if he recognized an attraction on his 
part toward Hermione), but if he had no idea Ron likes Hermione
 It 
would have been very interesting to see how Ron would have responded. 

Penny also wrote:
> Anyway, back to the Hermione goes with Harry scenario.  I think 
Ron's reactions might have been very interesting, but I don't think 
the post-Ball row would have occurred if she'd gone with Harry.  
Reason: I'm  still not convinced that Ron said anything personal to 
Hermione in the common room.  I think he continued to fling 
the "consorting with the enemy" stance at her just as he had at the 
Ball (of course, this is just masking his real feelings but I think 
he doesn't recognize his feelings for what they are).  I've said many 
times before that we don't know what Ron said to her before Harry 
enters the room & overhears the last bit of
> their row.  But, consider this (a point I don't think I've made):
> 
> ["Well," he spluttered, looking thunderstruck.  "well --- that just
> proves ---- completely missed the point."]
> 
> Okay R/H types: if Ron *did* say something personal ("why didn't 
you go to the Ball with me rather than Krum?"), why in the world 
would he think she'd missed the point?  Why would he look 
thunderstruck?

I don't think he did say anything personal, although by this point he 
may have started to recognize the cause of his jealousy (although 
Penny's idea that he doesn't really know his own feelings by the end 
of GoF is certainly plausible). Ron being so stunned by 
Hermione's "Well, you know what the solution is 
" line supports the 
argument from Ron's side remained about Krum, I think ? she got that 
it was personal before he did, threw it back at him, and he went into 
a big denial loop ("Well ---that just proves---completely missed the 
point").  I also agree that Ron wouldn't have ranted if it'd been 
Harry ? what would he have done? Again, this would have been an 
interesting scenario!

As an aside, Moey wrote an interesting post ball story (The Yule 
Brawl, which I know is at SugarQuill and maybe at FF.net) where 
during Ron's rant over Viktor, he slipped in something along the 
lines of "and you go and make yourself all pretty for *him*, don't 
you have any sense whatsoever? I can't believe you went with him, 
he's Harry's rival...". In the story, this comes across as an 
unrecognizable slip on Ron's part, which doesn't take away from his 
shock at Hermione's comment. It's a believable, entertaining story. 

Star wrote: 
> Oh dear, I fear that I've opened a can of worms here but oh well.  
I know that everyone disagrees with me, that's why I started this 
> simply to see if one other person thought along similar lines, I 
> guess not, oh well I'm used to being the odd ball. 

Not a can of worms, Star ?I just happen to disagree with you :*) This 
is good thread!

> One reason why I  think that we differ so much is that I'm bot an 
adult, yes I know 
> there are otehr teenagers on here but for the most part it's 
adults.   I'm only 15 (16 in May YAY!) so I can see other sides to 
what is 

<sigh> I wish I could get this excited about my upcoming 31st. Why is 
this bugging me so much more than 30? Well, happy birthday in 
advance. 

> You've all been saying things along the line of  `Ron is a 14 year 
old boys he 
> doesn't know he has feelings for Hermione, he hasn't figured it out 
> yet' well I suppose sense I view Ron as being emotionally imature 
(less then Hermione and Harry) that could be but I don't really see 

Why? I do see Hermione as a mature young lady, but I don't see Ron as 
unusually immature in comparison to Harry. He has his hangups, but so 
does Harry. 

> that sense I have many 14 year old guy friends who know exactly 
> what's going on, they know who they like and some even have steady 
> girls friends,

And I have 30 year old friends who are still trying to figure things 
out :*) Please don't think I was trying to say 14 year olds don't 
know what's going on, Star. What I think is based on memories of 
myself and my friends at that age. Everyone is different. 

> I think that in realness Ron would be more in tune with 
> his feelings judging by the people around me but I know `we' are 
> thought of as younger minded then what we are and I'm sure the same 
> goes with how Jo views `us' therefor that is how it's written in 
her books.

Do you think JKR writes her characters as young? In general, or only 
in regard to relationships? My impression is that they are a bit more 
savvy than I was at that age, and their struggles as they try to 
figure out feelings for the opposite sex seem quite realistic to me - 
but it's been a while. 

<Smile, everyone, and be happy!>

Of course! We're debating Harry Potter ? how could we not be happy?

Best,
B





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar  5 19:29:01 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:29:01 -0000
Subject: really nasty bastards (was Re: Sirius and the thirst for revenge
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10103051239080.94163-100000@freeside.fc.net>
Message-ID: <980pdt+oc5i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13641

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Marvin Long, Jr." <msl at f...> wrote:
> 

> This raises a question about Voldemort's followers, however.  The more
> bourgeois types would succumb to Azkaban quickly.  What what about the
> really, really, nasty bastards?  What if Azkaban has a "cell block"
> devoted to a more psychotic class of wizard criminal that grows stronger
> in hatred and rage under the dementors' influence, not less?
> 
> Assuming Voldemort succeeds in recruiting the dementors, what happens when
> the really hard cases escape from Azkaban?

	I have a feeling that JKR introduced us to the Lestranges, who 
were presumably two of those on trial with Barty Crouch Jr, for just 
that reason...I feel sure the female will be far more than a basket 
case when she is set loose.  Azkaban will probably become a Death Eater 
fortress when the Dementors change sides.
Pippin





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 19:37:52 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:37:52 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore and the "Old Crowd
In-Reply-To: <3AA30109.6192480F@email.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <980pug+419p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13642

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Betty Landers <landers at e...> wrote:
> Hello all!  Coming out of deep lerkdom to bring up a question.
> Reading all this discussion of Sirius and the fifth question about 
the
> old crowd made me think of someone who Dumbledore mentions and we've
> heard his name a couple times, but only in passing. Mundungus 
Fletcher
> (sp?).  Book 2: Arthur Weasley is checking for illegal (misused) 
muggle
> stuff and rades Fletcher's place, and Fletcher tries to curse him. 
 
Book
> 4: Toward the beginning, just before they get to HOgwarts, we here 
Percy
> talking about all the howlers and stuff he's been getting after the
> incident in the woods, and he mentions in passing that Fletcher has
> tried to take out a claim on a 12 bedroom tent or something like 
that.
> HOwever, according to Percy, Fletcher was sleeping under a cloak 
propped
> up with sticks.  Also in book 4: Toward the end, when Dumbledore is
> sending Sirius to alert the "old crowd", he specifically mentions
> Fletcher.
> What, in your opinion, does this little bit of information suggest 
about
> Fletcher?  Is it even the same person?  Why might Dumbledore trust 
him?
> D you think Fletcher has always mistrusted the ministry?  General
> speculation?
> OK, going back to the land of Lerkdom and waiting for your ideas.


Hey all!  I felt the need to pipe up, as I've been intrigued by 
this character as well.  I've decided I quite like him.  In fact, I've 
decided to adopt his name for my dog, when I get a dog, which will 
probably not happen any time soon (but there's no harm in planning 
ahead, right?)  In CoS, Arthur does say he's making raids, but what he 
says is:  "Nine Raids.  Nine!  And old Mundungus Fletcher tried to put 
a hex on me when my back was turned..."

It doesn't necessarily follow that Fletcher was the one being raided 
(although I wouldn't rule it out), and it doesn't say what kind of hex 
(could've been a giggling hex or the jelly-legs or something fun).  I 
like to imagine him as a crotchety old man sort of version of Fred and 
George or the Marauders - one of the good guys, but a trickster, and 
maybe quirky and exhasperating, and as he's gotten older, he doesn't 
quite feel the rules apply to him, as an honoured  veteran of VWI.  
You know what I mean?  I think he and Alastor Moody are old drinking 
buddies, and I hope they get the British equivalent of Jack Klugman to 
play him (whoever *that* may be).

Actually, even if it was his house they were raiding, I still like to 
think of him this way.  I mean the twins (or was it Ron?) said that if 
Arthur raided the Burrow he'd have to arrest himself, so good old Gus 
(that's what I plan to call the puppy, for short, unless Fletch suits 
him better) could be just one of those guys who makes joke stuff like 
the biting teacups, but he's naughty enough to do it with muggle 
teacups, which would, of course, violate the Muggle Protection Act.
Basically, I think Fletcher's a good guy with a mischevious streak.

kimberly,
who really wants a dog now




From paxber at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 19:43:34 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:43:34 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <980iim+kr33@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <980q96+4bvk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13643

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., star_ling at w... wrote:
> Oh dear, I fear that I've opened a can of worms here but oh well.  
I 
> know that everyone disagrees with me, that's why I started this 
> simply to see if one other person thought along similar lines, I 
> guess not, oh well I'm used to being the odd ball.  One reason why 
I 
> think that we differ so much is that I'm bot an adult, yes I know 
> there are otehr teenagers on here but for the most part it's 
adults.  
> I'm only 15 (16 in May YAY!) so I can see other sides to what is 
> happening to the characters not to mention I've been in wierd 
> relationships enables me be different and see things as most 
don't.  

Oh, please. I refuse to use the phrase "typical teenager", especially 
since several of the people I know who are currently in that age 
bracket are quite extraordinary people.... But stereotyping in the 
opposite direction doesn't work either.  I don't think it's quite 
safe to assume that those who are now adults haven't been in, aren't 
in, or don't remember "weird relationships". Ditto with having 
friends who are mostly of the other gender; I did in nursery school, 
I did in grade school, I did in college, and I do now.

All that said, I do agree that being in the thick of what the 
characters are experiencing has to give you a bit of a different 
viewpoint. In fact, I think that's one of the tests of good writing, 
that it can stand up to a multiplicity of views, and mean something a 
little different to each reader.

the other Paula




From morine10 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 19:52:41 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:52:41 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
Message-ID: <5c.8072649.27d54889@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13644

Penny:
Continue to read R/H shippers.  Believe it or not, I'm largely on your
> side on this one.  <g>
> 

Yikes!  'Tis the calm before the storm.  Cap'n Kathy - batten down the 
hatches!!!! <vbg>

> 
> this is 
more to do with his
> perception that she was just "good old Hermione" who wasn't really a
> "girl" in his mind until it was becoming clear that he was going to have
> trouble getting a date at the 11th hour.
> 

I agree, Ron is not very self aware. He just hasn't got a clue yet.  I know 
he's going to come around though. :)

> I agree with Kathy on that one!  I'm *not*, however, expressing any
> agreement with the position that JKR has said that it *will* be R/H or
> any of that nonsense.  Her statement was "Yes, there's something going
> on between them, Ron just doesn't know it yet."  I still say that it's
> arguable that the "something going on" is one-sided.  I think JKR's
> statement was sufficiently ambiguous. But, it's clear that Ron just
> hasn't admitted his own feelings.  We're in agreement on that much
> anyway.
> 

First off - R/H nonsense?  Come now, we have extremely valid points and 
*very* strong textual evidence. It's hardly nonsense. <g>  As for JKR's 
statement, IMO the only thing you could call ambiguous is her use of the word 
"something."  But is there really any question as to what she means?  I think 
that her use of the word "between" means just that - between Ron and 
Hermione.  It involves *both* parties.  I interpret her statement to mean 
that Hermione knows but Ron is a clueless boy. :)


One point I'll make at this stage is that it is interesting that Ron does 
*not*
> specifically ask her to ball.  He at first says, "Well, you can come
> with one of us."  If she had said fine, it would be logical that she
> would have gone with Harry because of his heightened need for a
> partner.  Even Ron would have seen that.  Later in the conversation, he
> says, "Okay, okay, *we* know you're a girl.  ... That do?  Will you come
> now?"  He's *still* not out & out asking her to be *his* date.
> 
> I like Bbennet's observation that he may have, in the back of his mind,
> assumed that they would both go stag and "hang out" at the Ball.
> 

I like B's observation as well. :)  I can still remember when I was that age 
and for the most part groups of girls would meet up a the  movies or the mall 
with groups of boys.    No one specifically asked anyone out.  More of a 
"Hey, you going to the mall tonight?"  'Yeah, I guess."  "Cool, I guess I'll 
see you guys there."  The pairing off would take place when you found your 
seat in the theater or at the food court.  You just hoped that the *right* 
person sat next to you!  ;)


> I'm still not convinced that Ron said anything personal to Hermione in the
> common room.  I think he continued to fling the "consorting with the
> enemy" stance at her just as he had at the Ball (of course, this is just
> masking his real feelings but I think he doesn't recognize his feelings
> for what they are).  I've said many times before that we don't know what
> Ron said to her before Harry enters the room & overhears the last bit of
> their row.  But, consider this (a point I don't think I've made):
> 
> ["Well," he spluttered, looking thunderstruck.  "well --- that just
> proves ---- completely missed the point."]
> 
> Okay R/H types: if Ron *did* say something personal ("why didn't you go
> to the Ball with me rather than Krum?"), why in the world would he think
> she'd missed the point?  Why would he look thunderstruck?
> 

I agree with you, I don't think that he said anything personal to her.  I 
think that Ron continued his "fraternizing with the enemy" stance.  Even if 
he was *thinking* something more personal, he would never have said it.  The 
"missing the point" and "thunderstruck" statements would not make much sense 
otherwise.  


> Harry's observation about Hermione getting the point more than Ron had
> is, I think, just making it more clear that Harry himself has figured
> out that Ron likes Hermione.  But, her feelings are still a mystery to
> us all.
> 

Now I have to half disagree with this.  Yes, Harry is acknowledging that Ron 
likes Hermione, but I feel that he is also saying that Hermione likes Ron.  
Why?  Well let's look at Hermione's statement from the row:

"Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last 
resort!"

First, Hermione says this to Ron and NOT to Harry.  Why would she bother 
(IMO) *telling* Ron to ask her to be his date next time if she liked Harry or 
anyone else for that matter?  There are plenty of things she could have said 
such as "shut up" or "I can date whoever I want to."  Really, I think that 
the above statement may as well say, "The minute they announce the next ball 
you had better be over here begging me to go with you!"  <VBG>  She does NOT 
tell Harry to ask her out next time.  

I guess I really don't think that Hermione's feelings are some big mystery.  
She may not be as transparent as Ron and the hints may be a bit more subtle 
but I feel that they are there.  Especially after that statement during the 
infamous Yule fight.  :)


BTW, if anyone is interested in seeing some *R/H-Type* interpretations on the 
Yule Ball fight I suggest a trip to Sugar Quill Island (www.sugarquill.com)  
Arabella and Elanor Gamgee (AKA Cap'n Kathy) each have stories that contain 
the scene as well as my own "Yule Brawl" (I go by Moey over there and on 
ff.net) 


Peace, Love, Harry Potter #~8^) 

-Mo
First Mate of the Good Ship R/H

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Wonderful girl.  Either I'm going to kill her or I'm beginning to like her."
       -Han Solo, Star Wars Episode IV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Mon Mar  5 20:17:10 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:17:10 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <5c.8072649.27d54889@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEPPDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13645

I am sure I have said before that I do not want to comment on shipper
stuff, but a few points came to mid when reading the latest debate.

I am a H/H person. The true H/H, which is Harry/Hedwig and none of this
Hermione nonsense. Hence I should support the Ron/Hermione lot, as that
would leave the path open for my preference.



Penny: <<<Harry's observation about Hermione getting the point more than
Ron had is, I think, just making it more clear that Harry himself has
figured out that Ron likes Hermione.  But, her feelings are still a mystery
to us all.>>>

Mo: <<<Now I have to half disagree with this.  Yes, Harry is acknowledging
that Ron likes Hermione, but I feel that he is also saying that Hermione
likes Ron.  Why?  Well let's look at Hermione's statement from the row:
"Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a
last resort!"
First, Hermione says this to Ron and NOT to Harry.  Why would she bother
(IMO) *telling* Ron to ask her to be his date next time if she liked Harry
or anyone else for that matter?  There are plenty of things she could have
said such as "shut up" or "I can date whoever I want to."  Really, I think
that the above statement may as well say, "The minute they announce the
next ball you had better be over here begging me to go with you!"  <VBG>
She does NOT tell Harry to ask her out next time.
I guess I really don't think that Hermione's feelings are some big mystery.
She may not be as transparent as Ron and the hints may be a bit more subtle
but I feel that they are there.  Especially after that statement during the
infamous Yule fight.  :)>>>


Hermione may say that line to Ron, but that is almost certainly because it
is Ron that is making a big deal about all of the ball stuff. They are in
the middle of an argument in which Ron is making a big deal out of nothing
and Harry has just walked in and witnesses the end of it.

Hermione's point would not have been as well made if the comment were aimed
at Harry or both. It is Ron that is making a deal out of this 'consorting
with the enemy' and so Hermione is pointing out that in future if he does
not want this to happen then he will have to act first.

Harry does not at any stage make a deal out of Hermione and Krum, from the
sense of being against it for 'consorting with the enemy'. It is Hagrid and
Ron that mention it and Ron especially makes a big deal out of it.


Simon
--
"Welcome to my temporary abode, Slayer." the leader said with a sweeping
bow. "Allow me to introduce myself - I am Simon Branford." - Ginny The
Vampire Slayer - Season 1, Episode 3: The Curse Of Simon Branford by Keith
Fraser
(http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=132489)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Mar  5 20:38:55 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:38:55 -0000
Subject: Bookbuying (aka Ammunition For Penny)
Message-ID: <980tgv+ofei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13646

>From today's associated press:
The group also reported that while the sales of Harry Potter books 
more than doubled last year compared to the year before, the majority 
of those books were bought for readers over the age of 14, while in 
1999 most of the books were brought for under-14 readers.


Please forward to the NYTimes!




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar  5 03:29:54 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 03:29:54 -0000
Subject: the extra questions
In-Reply-To: <20010304203702.24689.qmail@web9102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <97v17i+i8sl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13647

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., LJL <ljl236 at y...> wrote:
> Love, love, LOVE the query that asks if we regard others (never 
us!) as
> muggles! some things just go without saying!

To LJL
Yes! I tend to regard anyone who either has not/will not read Harry 
Potter, or anyone who has anything negative to say about Harry Potter 
as a Muggle. No magic in their lives, whether it be HP or anything 
related to imagination.

Doreen the snow is melting ... elting ... lting ... ting .. ing




From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 20:51:29 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:51:29 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
Message-ID: <fd.32ae67f.27d55651@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13648

In a message dated 03/05/2001 3:19:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk writes:

<< I am a H/H person. The true H/H, which is Harry/Hedwig >>

LMAO!  I love that!  I've always thought about writing a fanfic where Hedwig 
is an animagus in disguise.....

I haven't exactly been following this discussion from day one, but...has no 
one pointed out that Harry goes out of his way to point out to Mrs. Weasley 
that he and Hermione are just friends? (If so then ignore my late ramblings.) 
 Now, that may have been just to get Mrs. W to stop being so cold to Hermione 
in the first place, but I've always wondered if the reason why Mrs. W was so 
cold to her was because she knew of her son's crush on Hermione.  She 
immediately "became warmer to Hermione after that."  Mrs. W may have motherly 
affections for Harry, but I feel that she was thinking of Ron's feelings for 
Hermione, who was made out by Skeeter to be a "Scarlet Woman."  

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor (who should probably add that she's a Ron/Hermione shipper....in 
addition to being on the Ginny/Harry ship.)



From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Mon Mar  5 12:24:07 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:24:07 -0000
Subject: another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
In-Reply-To: <97vku9+t42j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9800h7+470q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13649

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
[snip]
> 
> WARNING to the squeamish - ignore next paragraph!
> 
> On a different note, but related to Bertie's Beans - Does anybody 
> else find it highly suspicious that Dumbledore recognized the taste 
> of earwax? Vomit I understand, even bogies I understand (yuck), but 
> earwax?!! 

Not suspicious at all, given that a journalist in Sports Illustrated 
in 1994 decided that lutefisk tasted like wolf-urine  - which he 
could not have done, unless he knew what wolf-urine tasted like...




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Mon Mar  5 13:53:16 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 5 Mar 2001 13:53:16 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <983800396.35244.21531.k4@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13650


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Movie Trailer/trailer1_01mar.rm 
  Uploaded by : snapeman at spray.fr 
  Description : Here is the whole movie trailer 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Movie%20Trailer/trailer1_01mar.rm 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

snapeman at spray.fr
 







From yo_loser at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 18:05:27 2001
From: yo_loser at yahoo.com (yo_loser at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:05:27 -0000
Subject: quiz
Message-ID: <980kh7+dfe7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13651

Hi, I'm relativly new to the list and searching through the posts I 
came across references to a obsessed quiz...where exactly is that 
found? I would like to know how obsessed I really am, relative to 
others...if anyone knows could they e-mail me...thanks

Molly

"254 days and counting"


----------------------------------------------------------
Make the soldiers rich, and forget about everyone else
                                                ~Severus




From bbennett at joymail.com  Mon Mar  5 20:55:57 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:55:57 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEPPDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <980ugt+socg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13652

Simon wrote: 
<I am a H/H person. The true H/H, which is Harry/Hedwig and none of 
this Hermione nonsense. Hence I should support the Ron/Hermione lot, 
as that would leave the path open for my preference. >

Simon, I've just seen the light - H/H all the way! :*)

> Hermione may say that line to Ron, but that is almost certainly 
because it is Ron that is making a big deal about all of the ball 
stuff. They are in the middle of an argument in which Ron is making a 
big deal out of nothing and Harry has just walked in and witnesses 
the end of it.>

Having been a 14 year old girl, I have to disagree with your 
reasoning, Simon.  At that age, I never would have said something 
like that to a boy (and a close friend, at that) and have expected 
him to take it as a generic, blanket sort of statement - as a 30 year 
old, I'd still assume that by saying something like this I'm
letting the guy know I'm interested! 

Simon also wrote:
< Hermione's point would not have been as well made if the comment 
were aimed at Harry or both. It is Ron that is making a deal out of 
this 'consorting with the enemy' and so Hermione is pointing out that 
in future if he does not want this to happen then he will have to act 
first.>

Yes, by saying he should ask her to be his date. If she
wasn't actually suggesting to Ron specifically that he should
have asked, then why say it at all - why not just tell him to bugger 
off? 

Again, this is an interesting thread!

B




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  5 20:55:27 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:55:27 -0500
Subject: Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters
Message-ID: <006b01c0a5b6$9ed405a0$5674d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13653

Contributed by: Randy

After six months wandering the planet without contact with the HP email
group, Lord Randemort stumbles upon Carole and takes possession of her email
account.  He disposes of the person who is supposed to summarize chapter 33
and summons the Net Eaters to feast on his own version of the chapter.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....



Chapter 33  The Death Eaters

Voldemort reappears in bodily form with long white fingers and red eyes with
slits for pupils like a cat's.  He gives out a cold laugh (BWAHAHAHAHAHA)
and touches the left arm of Wormtail where a red tattoo of the Dark Mark
turns jet black and summons the Death Eaters to Voldemort.  Voldemort brags
to Harry about killing his own father because the father abandoned his
mother when he learned she was a witch.

The Death Eaters appear, crawl on their knees to kiss the robe of the Big V,
and slink backward into a circle enclosing the grave, Harry, Wormtail, and
Voldemort.  Voldemort chastises the Death Eaters for not coming to find him
over the past thirteen years.  He then gives Wormtail a silver right hand to
replace the one he sacrificed.  He points out who has returned to him (
Avery, Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, Macnair), and those who are missing
(either dead, in Azkaban, or missing).  Of the three missing Death Eaters,
one is too cowardly to return, one has left him forever, and one is his
faithful servant.

He points out that Harry Potter is the guest of honor at this ceremony.
Harry's mother's sacrifice had saved Harry and turned Voldemort into a
spirit form that wandered the world possessing the bodies of small animals
until it found Quirrell.  Then Wormtail finds him and through the
information about the Tri Wizard tournament obtained by torturing Bertha
Jorkins, they devised a plan to get Harry Potter to this cemetery (where his
father was buried) via a portkey with the help of his one most faithful
servant at Hogwarts.

Voldemort tortures Harry with his wand to the laughter of the Death Eaters.
He then wishes to prove to the Death Eaters his superiority to Harry Potter
by battling Harry in front of them.  He has Wormtail untie Harry and give
him back his wand.  Voldemort thus exhibits the fatal flaw of all super
villains.  His pride will not allow him to easily dispose of his archrival.

Questions:

1. Why is Lucius Malfoy considered by Voldemort to be a better servant than
most of the other Death Eaters?

2. Who are the Lestranges that are serving time in Azkaban?

3. Will Voldemort get the dementors and the giants to follow him in his
"army of creatures whom all fear"?

4. And of course the eternal question.Why did Voldemort untie Harry and give
him back his wand?









From katie at vquill.com  Mon Mar  5 21:09:59 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:09:59 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters
In-Reply-To: <006b01c0a5b6$9ed405a0$5674d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010305130618.00ae52a0@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13654

At 03:55 PM 3/5/01 -0500, you wrote:
>
>1. Why is Lucius Malfoy considered by Voldemort to be a better servant than
>most of the other Death Eaters?

He's powerful, he's rich, he's capable. He's also kept up a good deal of 
his evilness even while Voldy was gone. He's had the ministry of magic 
under his thumb -- and probably still has total power over them. That's no 
small thing!  He even got Dumbledore thrown out as headmaster for a short 
period of time.


>3. Will Voldemort get the dementors and the giants to follow him in his
>"army of creatures whom all fear"?

Yes. Especially the dementors. Maybe not the giants. :) I'm sure of the 
dementors. She's been hinting her butt off.


>4. And of course the eternal question.Why did Voldemort untie Harry and give
>him back his wand?

Because he never read the list of "Things I will Not Do if I Become An Evil 
Overlord".

Perhaps he feels he can't win the respect of his followers until he proves 
that he can defeat Harry. After all, he's the one who stopped him last 
time, and there are probably plenty of people of there who doubt Voldy can 
kill him. Maybe many of the followers won't come back until he can prove 
that it's going to go the right way this time.

-Katie




From morine10 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 21:27:52 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:27:52 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
Message-ID: <10.99fd6a3.27d55ed8@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13655

Dr. Branford, I cannot believe that you do not have *any* medi-wizard 
emergencies!  I can't imagine with all your duties you have time to spend on 
this silly shipper stuff. :)  


> Simon wrote: 
> <I 
> this Hermione nonsense. Hence I should support the Ron/Hermione lot, 
> as that would leave the path open for my preference. >
> 
> Simon, I've just seen the light - H/H all the way! :*)
> 
> > Hermione may say that line to Ron, but that is almost certainly 
> because it is Ron that is making a big deal about all of the ball 
> stuff. They are in the middle of an argument in which Ron is making a 
> big deal out of nothing and Harry has just walked in and witnesses 
> the end of it.>
> 
> Having been a 14 year old girl, I have to disagree with your 
> reasoning, Simon.  At that age, I never would have said something 
> like that to a boy (and a close friend, at that) and have expected 
> him to take it as a generic, blanket sort of statement - as a 30 year 
> old, I'd still assume that by saying something like this I'm
> letting the guy know I'm interested! 
> 

I have to agree  with B, I would never (as a 14 year old or now as a 30 year 
old) say that as a generic statement.  Maybe Ron isn't the only one that 
doesn't get it.  :)  Is it me or does this seem like a Venus/Mars thing?  We 
woman think we are being *so* incredibly obvious and the men think, *what* 
the heck is she talking about?  


Simon also wrote:
> < Hermione's point would not have been as well made if the comment 
> were aimed at Harry or both. It is Ron that is making a deal out of 
> this 'consorting with the enemy' and so Hermione is pointing out that 
> in future if he does not want this to happen then he will have to act 
> first.>
> 
> Yes, by saying he should ask her to be his date. If she
> wasn't actually suggesting to Ron specifically that he should
> have asked, then why say it at all - why not just tell him to bugger 
> off? 
> 

Thanks B.  I think that was my original point.  *Why* would she *tell* him to 
ask her out if she didn't want to.  Again, this is from the female POV.  I 
know that I would *never* say something like that to someone that I didn't 
want to ask me out.  



-Mo
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Wonderful girl.  Either I'm going to kill her or I'm beginning to like her."
       -Han Solo, Star Wars Episode IV



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 21:45:07 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:45:07 -0000
Subject: another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
In-Reply-To: <97vku9+t42j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9811d3+sccu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13656


Naama said:
<<So, I thought I'd put it as a question for you guys here - what do 
you find most imaginative, funny or otherwise exhilirating in HP?>>


I had a very hard time narrowing it down to three, but I'd say 

I really like Fawkes, the actual phoenix, who really *does* rise from 
his own ashes.

I love the Weasley's clock that tells where/how everyone is.

The pensieve seems to me to be absolute genious in it's conception, 
and I could put it to good use immediately.

But if I'm allowed, a happy runner-up is Quidditch itself.  Hard 
enough to invent a new sport, but to invent one this exciting, 
complicated and magical is just further evidence that JK's imagination 
is made of the finest stuff.


Naama again:
                 <<WARNING to the squeamish - ignore next paragraph! 
On a different note, but related to Bertie's Beans - Does anybody else 
find it highly suspicious that Dumbledore recognized the taste of 
earwax? Vomit I understand, even bogies I understand (yuck), but 
earwax?!!>>

There are a few reasons I can think of that one might have a 
familiarity with the taste of earwax beyond the reasonable 
explanations that have already been mentioned.  Anyone ever heard of a 
'wet willy'?  Involving having a wet finger stuck in your ear - 
usually by an annoying sibling or the equivalent?  I have seen (with 
glee) the attempt to repeat such a procedure result in learning 
something one might rather never to know.  
Also... well, I'm actually a real prude, but I've... accidentally come 
across such a thing in the past.  As I'm blushing about 12 different 
shades of red now, I don't think I'll elaborate.


In fact, let me change the subject dramatically so as to divert your 
attention from the orange glow of my face.  Hmmm... Ah!  The shipper 
debate always makes for a good diversion.  

Mo says of the Yule Ball argument quote:

<<First, Hermione says this to Ron and NOT to Harry.  Why would she 
bother (IMO) *telling* Ron to ask her to be his date next time if she 
liked Harry or anyone else for that matter?  There are plenty of 
things she could have said such as "shut up" or "I can date whoever I 
want to."  Really, I think that the above statement may as well say, 
"The minute they announce the next ball you had better be over here 
begging me to go with you!"  <VBG>  She does NOT tell Harry to ask her 
out next time. I guess I really don't think that Hermione's feelings 
are some big mystery.  She may not be as transparent as Ron and the 
hints may be a bit more subtle but I feel that they are there.  
Especially after that statement during the infamous Yule fight.  :)>>>

Simon responded:

                 <<Hermione may say that line to Ron, but that is 
almost certainly because it is Ron that is making a big deal about all 
of the ball stuff. They are in the middle of an argument in which Ron 
is making a big deal out of nothing and Harry has just walked in and 
witnesses the end of it. <snip>>>

While I agree with Simon that it wouldn't have made much sense in the 
context for Hermione to include Harry in that statement, I 
respectfully submit that that does not explain why she would not have 
chosen, as Mo says, to use a different retort alltogether.  Why, if 
Hermione would prefer *not* to date Ron, would she not only suggest 
that he ask her out in the future, but also suggest that she would go 
- by implying that had he asked her to the ball first, it would have 
"solved" the problem.  "Well if you don't like it, you know what the 
solution is, don't you?  Next time there's a ball, ask me before 
someone else does, and not as a last resort!"
She could easily, as Mo said, have told him to go soak his head, or to 
stay out of her personal business, or that she didn't need him to tell 
her who to date, but instead she said that to solve his problem, he 
should ask her out.
Is she being cruel, setting him up to fail?  Doesn't seem like her.

kimberly






From xine48 at ync.net  Mon Mar  5 22:05:50 2001
From: xine48 at ync.net (Christine Olson)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 16:05:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
In-Reply-To: <9811d3+sccu@eGroups.com>
References: <97vku9+t42j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010305155459.02bb28a0@pop31.ync.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13657

At 09:45 PM 03/05/2001 +0000, you wrote:

>Naama said:
>So, I thought I'd put it as a question for you guys here - what do
>you find most imaginative, funny or otherwise exhilirating in HP?>>
>
House elves, what I would do for a house elf.  I would be really nice to 
her and get her the fanciest silk pillow slips and tea towels and all the 
time off she wants (which of course we know she wouldn't want).  They are 
funny, useful and portray a moral dilenma

Transportation, flying cars, a train that know one sees, a bus with 
sleeping compartments and hot chocolate, floo powder, port keys and 
Last  but not least apparation.

without a doubt quidditch,  how did she think that up.  Especially the 
snitch.  AMAZING!!


         christine




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Mon Mar  5 22:08:33 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:08:33 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <fd.32ae67f.27d55651@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9812p1+96as@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13658

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:

> 
> I haven't exactly been following this discussion from day one, 
but...has no one pointed out that Harry goes out of his way to point 
out to Mrs. Weasley  that he and Hermione are just friends? (If so 
then ignore my late ramblings.)  Now, that may have been just to get 
Mrs. W to stop being so cold to Hermione in the first place, but I've 
always wondered if the reason why Mrs. W was so cold to her was 
because she knew of her son's crush on Hermione.  She  
immediately "became warmer to Hermione after that."  Mrs. W may have 
motherly  affections for Harry, but I feel that she was thinking of 
Ron's feelings for  Hermione, who was made out by Skeeter to be 
a "Scarlet Woman."  
> 
> Cheers,
> Paula


**** 
It seems pretty clear that the reason that Mrs. Weasley was cold to 
Hermione was that she had read the Rita Skeeter article claiming that 
Hermione had broken Harry's heart. In fact, she states as much, and I 
see no reason to assume that she is lying or that there's any more to 
it. The moment she found out that Hermione didn't hurt Harry, as 
Harry and Hermione were just friends, she stopped being cold to 
Hermione. I think we would all agree that Mrs. Weasley loves Harry 
and is protective of him and that there is nothing wrong with that. 
This seems to me as clear and obvious as the fact that Ron likes 
Hermione, and I don't really think there's any subtext there to 
explore. Sorry. 

Cassandra




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar  5 21:57:43 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:57:43 -0600
Subject: SHIP: re: Ron & the Yule Ball
References: <980o67+4es6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA40BD7.9DB06A19@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13659

Hi --

bbennett at joymail.com wrote:

> I do see Hermione as a mature young lady, but I don't see Ron as
> unusually immature in comparison to Harry. He has his hangups, but so
> does Harry.

I agree that both Ron & Harry are so far pretty immature in the romance
category.

> > that sense I have many 14 year old guy friends who know exactly
> > what's going on, they know who they like and some even have steady
> > girls friends,
>
> And I have 30 year old friends who are still trying to figure things
> out :*) Please don't think I was trying to say 14 year olds don't
> know what's going on, Star. What I think is based on memories of
> myself and my friends at that age. Everyone is different.

Yes, I think alot of us "30 somethings" (or 20-somethings or
40-somethings for that matter) tend to project our own memories of
adolescence into these debates.

> Do you think JKR writes her characters as young? In general, or only
> in regard to relationships? My impression is that they are a bit more
> savvy than I was at that age, and their struggles as they try to
> figure out feelings for the opposite sex seem quite realistic to me -
> but it's been a while.

Been awhile for me too.  Like B, I think the characters are in general
more savvy than the average kids their age.  But, I think they might be
a bit slower in the romance department than kids that age these days.  I
can't help wonder if it's because JKR didn't find it was as easy to
tackle that aspect as she thought it would be (she had said strongly
that she did not intend to keep the characters mired in pre-adolescence
forever, but I'm not sure that GoF advanced them all that much really).

I know this is a general observation, but it does appear to me that of
the teenagers on the list who have spoken up on the issue (or who have
spoken to listies like Ebony & Cassie & Heather), more of them interpret
Hermione as liking Harry than liking Ron.  Interesting.  :--)

Shifting to Mo:

> I said: > I agree with Kathy on that one!  I'm *not*, however, expressing any
> > agreement with the position that JKR has said that it *will* be R/H or
> > any of that nonsense.  Her statement was "Yes, there's something going
> > on between them, Ron just doesn't know it yet."  I still say that it's
> > arguable that the "something going on" is one-sided.  I think JKR's
> > statement was sufficiently ambiguous. But, it's clear that Ron just
> > hasn't admitted his own feelings.  We're in agreement on that much
> > anyway.
> >
>
> Mo responded: First off - R/H nonsense?  Come now, we have extremely valid points and
> *very* strong textual evidence. It's hardly nonsense.
>
Um .... did you miss the phrase "or any of that"?  I was *not* saying
that R/H is nonsense by any stretch.  The "nonsense" that I was
referring to is the argument that JKR's statement is irrefutably saying
that there will be a canon romance between Ron & Hermione.  :--)

> As for JKR's statement, IMO the only thing you could call ambiguous is her use of the
> word "something."  But is there really any question as to what she means?  I
> think that her use of the word "between" means just that - between Ron and
> Hermione.  It involves *both* parties.  I interpret her statement to mean
> that Hermione knows but Ron is a clueless boy. :)
>
Well, she made alot of pre-GoF statements that had everyone utterly &
completely convinced that Harry & Cho would date each other in GoF.
She's quite good IMO at making public statements that appear to be clear
but are, in reality, rather ambiguous.  I interpret what she said as
being clear only that Ron doesn't know what's going on yet.  There's
more than one spin to be put on virtually everything JKR says -- that's
all I'm saying.  :--)

> Now I have to half disagree with this.  Yes, Harry is acknowledging that
> Ron likes Hermione, but I feel that he is also saying that Hermione likes Ron.
>
> Why?  Well let's look at Hermione's statement from the row:
>
> "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a
> last resort!"
>
> First, Hermione says this to Ron and NOT to Harry.  Why would she bother
> (IMO) *telling* Ron to ask her to be his date next time if she liked Harry
> or anyone else for that matter?  There are plenty of things she could have
> said such as "shut up" or "I can date whoever I want to."  Really, I think that
> the above statement may as well say, "The minute they announce the next
> ball you had better be over here begging me to go with you!"    She does
> NOT tell Harry to ask her out next time.
>
Well, she and Harry weren't having an argument though, were they?  I
agree with Simon's points.  Ron is the one who made the big deal about
her ball date and it possibly being a disloyal act.  She was having a
fight with Ron.  Of course, she wouldn't direct that sort of line at
Harry.  He made a point of saying that he didn't mind that she went with
Krum.

Besides, I don't think she was so much *telling* him to ask her as his
date next time as she was telling him that if he didn't like her going
with another student, he should have asked her himself.  Subtle
difference.  They were having a huge fight ... and the context involves
thinking back to the "couple of trolls" remark that Ron made within
Hermione's hearing, her reaction to that & her sarcastic glee at his
predicament later on.  I also think she was unbelievably furious that
Ron would accuse her of "consorting with the enemy" & possibly betraying
Harry.  Loyalty is very important to Hermione so a jab that she was
being disloyal would not sit well with her at all.

Bbennett said:

> Having been a 14 year old girl, I have to disagree with your
> reasoning, Simon.  At that age, I never would have said something
> like that to a boy (and a close friend, at that) and have expected
> him to take it as a generic, blanket sort of statement - as a 30 year
> old, I'd still assume that by saying something like this I'm
> letting the guy know I'm interested!
>
Well, I've been a 14 yr old girl myself, and I agree with Simon.  They
were having a fight.  The words were spoken in anger, and most of us
have agreed that it seems most likely that the words that prompted her
remark were not personal.  So, why should her retort be taken as
personal if his initial triggering remark wasn't personal?

Mo has since pointed out also that she was *telling* him to ask her to
the next Ball.  Again, I disagree.  IMO, she was just pointing out that
if he didn't want her consorting with the enemy so to speak, he'd better
queue up a bit sooner than asking her as a last resort.  I definitely
don't think this is a Mars/Venus thing -- I'm a female & I just
interpret her statement as anger ... not definitive evidence that she
has an interest in him.

Penny (who should be doing a million other things right now ...)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 22:12:24 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:12:24 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
Message-ID: <21.8492f37.27d56948@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13660

In a message dated 03/05/2001 5:08:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
xine48 at ync.net writes:

<< without a doubt quidditch >>

I know!  Imagine, the only sport that I probably would be interested in, and 
it's completely FICTIONAL!    

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 22:39:54 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:39:54 -0000
Subject: Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters
In-Reply-To: <006b01c0a5b6$9ed405a0$5674d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9814jq+uhf9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13661


> 
> 1. Why is Lucius Malfoy considered by Voldemort to be a better 
servant than most of the other Death Eaters?

Yes, I agree that Lucius is rich and very influential.  I tend to 
think that he is a sniveling brat, but he certainly is a vicious 
racist, who is taking pains to pass his ideals along to his offspring 
- Voldie would like that!

> 
> 2. Who are the Lestranges that are serving time in Azkaban?

I think they are the death eaters who were caught with Crouch Jr.  
They continued to openly act as dark wizards even after Voldie lost 
his power and so many death eaters crawled to the Minstry crying foul.
 
>  3. Will Voldemort get the dementors and the giants to follow him in 
his "army of creatures whom all fear"?

What a great question!  I can't for the life of me figure out what 
will come of the the dementors - they are frightening to me.  What 
will happen to Azkaban?  
As for the giants, I'm quite sure Hagrid was sent by Dumbledore to 
make peace with them before Voldie can get to them.  What I really 
question is what Hagrid will do when he meets up with his mother again 
(I'm sure he will).  Will he question his loyalty to Dumbledore?  I've 
thought at times that Hagrid's adoration of Dumbledore is a bit too 
much - almost blind, if you will.  Can his mind be changed, especially 
if he comes into contact with a crowd who can offer him freedom and 
assimilation like the giants might?
> 
> 4. And of course the eternal question.Why did Voldemort untie Harry 
and give him back his wand?

'Cause Voldemort is an egomanaical single minded shmuck ('scuse me).  
He wants to make Harry suffer the way he did for 13 years.  He also 
probably wants to prove his worth to his loyal followers (someone just 
mentioned that and I agree).  Let's not rule out plot device as well 
(how dare I!).

--Jenny from Ravenclaw (three different sites Sorted me there - 





From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 22:43:57 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:43:57 -0000
Subject: Yay for all the obsessed grownups!
Message-ID: <9814rd+fmk0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13662

I just wanted to mention (I might have before but I'm having a happy 
lesson plan free snow day) how much I enjoy this site.  It's such a 
treat to read and respond to all these great postings presented by 
adults who adore HP as much as I do!

Thank you for creating a site that I check four times a day!

:-)

--Jenny from Ravenc




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 22:45:51 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:45:51 -0000
Subject: SHIP--Ron and the Yule Brawl (yawn)
In-Reply-To: <9811d3+sccu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9814uv+15bg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13663

The real SS H/H (clarification:  the one on which Hedwig is just 
Harry's courier pet and *nothing more*) appears in the distance.

It is being trailed by the Good Ship R/H... a self-destructing VIP 
message has fallen into the hands of a certain vacationing Special 
Agent... all other ranking H/H officers are otherwise occupied around 
the HP Fan World, as active H/Hers tend to be busy types.

On a nearby tropical island, Agent Ebony waves off the handsome 
Jamaican wizard-masseuse and sets her margarita on the beach blanket 
with a sigh.  "Call that a holiday?  I thought they were *done* with 
main-list shipping until the schoolbooks come out!"  Sighing, she 
tosses aside the message before it explodes, zips up her wetsuit, and 
dives back into the choppy waters of the Shipping Seas.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
"While I agree with Simon that it wouldn't have made much sense in 
the context for Hermione to include Harry in that statement, I  
respectfully submit that that does not explain why she would not have 
chosen, as Mo says, to use a different retort alltogether.  Why, if 
Hermione would prefer *not* to date Ron, would she not only suggest 
that he ask her out in the future, but also suggest that she would 
go - by implying that had he asked her to the ball first, it would 
have "solved" the problem.  "Well if you don't like it, you know what 
the solution is, don't you?  Next time there's a ball, ask me before 
someone else does, and not as a last resort!"

"She could easily, as Mo said, have told him to go soak his head, or 
to stay out of her personal business, or that she didn't need him to 
tell her who to date, but instead she said that to solve his problem, 
he should ask her out. Is she being cruel, setting him up to fail?  
Doesn't seem like her."
--------------------

Penny's going to kill me, and so will the rest of my shipmates.  But 
I'll begin my approach to the Yule Brawl with this: I grudgingly 
agree with most of the R/H platform.  It was after reading the Yule 
Ball scene on July 8 that I mentally picked up an R/H pennant, glared 
at it, and waved it with a halfhearted "Whoop-dee-doo."  ;-)

Having conceded that, a whole realm of possibilities are opened up.  
There's another, deeper level of reasoning that could be at work on 
Hermione's part.

Taking for granted FITD (new members, check the archives--no time to 
explain it), IF Hermione's remarks were intended as encouragement to 
Ron, they may have been prompted by several other factors, none of 
which necessarily include "wow, I'm really starting to see Ron in a 
different light!"  

I'd elaborate at length, but this list is still on webview, and I'm 
on vacation.  :::Applause from the veterans!:::  Shipmates, just send 
me another message off list if the gloating continues... I just 
finished re-reading GoF, and I'd dearly love to use the R/H reading 
of the Yule Brawl to illustrate some of our points.  Besides, that 
masseuse of mine isn't going anywhere.  :)

I leave you with this cheesy paraphrase from the movie Titanic:  "A 
woman's heart is a deep ocean of secrets."  Cliche?  Yes.  But aren't 
cliches just truths in proverbial form?

Who knows what going on with Hermione's?  We certainly don't... and 
that's because Hermione's thoughts and feelings are not something 
Harry's really interested in at this juncture.  (Waves at Jim Ferer--
I owe you an e-mail.)

There is a silver lining in canonical R/H IMO... since the books are 
told from Harry's point of view, we won't be subjected to it very 
much.  I can't imagine he'll be terribly interested in giving us a 
blow-by-blow of R/H, either.  

Let us hope that if JKR is really the captain of the OBHWF Cruise 
Lines *in absentia*, Harry in the remaining books will be too busy 
fighting Voldemort/learning more about his parents and the 
past/trying to stay alive to moon over Ginny too much.  :-)

Swimming away...

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From msl at fc.net  Mon Mar  5 22:40:59 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:40:59 -0000
Subject: Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters
In-Reply-To: <006b01c0a5b6$9ed405a0$5674d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9814lr+k4au@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13664

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> Contributed by: Randy

> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Why is Lucius Malfoy considered by Voldemort to be a better 
> servant than most of the other Death Eaters?

Perhaps because Malfoy has continued to agitate and promote Voldy's
basic agenda in his absence, thus paving the way for his return to
wizarding society at large.

> 2. Who are the Lestranges that are serving time in Azkaban?

Dunno.  Bet they turn out to be some really nasty bastards, though.
<g>

Query:  Could the name "Lestranges" be a play on the French title of
Camus' "The Stranger?"  Maybe we'll hear their story...maybe they were
blinded by Lord V into a state of guiltless amorality....

> 3. Will Voldemort get the dementors and the giants to follow him in 
> his "army of creatures whom all fear"?

The dementors, surely:  I think JKR wants to make a point about the
hazards of using evil means to pursue an otherwise good goal.  I fear
the giants will be thrown into a civil war amongst themselves.

> 4. And of course the eternal question.Why did Voldemort untie Harry 
> and give him back his wand?

Remember the end of _Austin Powers_, when Dr. Evil's son Scott offers
to get a gun from his room and pop the good guys right there and then,
but Dr. Evil says, no, you can't do that because that's just not the
way things are done--instead he will tie up the good guys in a room
full of mutant sea bass and trust the bass to finish the job?

That's why.  The aesthetics of evil overlordship preclude the
efficient elimination of the protagonist.

Marvin Long
Austin, Texas




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  5 23:00:21 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:00:21 -0800
Subject: Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters
Message-ID: <F200A5ycQpCiygl2UJE00004635@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13665




Questions:

<1. Why is Lucius Malfoy considered by Voldemort to be a better servant than 
most of the other Death Eaters?>

I would guess it is the fact that he is in a postion of power, and no one 
can revoke it, because they can't prove that he is a Death Eater. From what 
we know, we know that he has power over Hogwarts, the court system (think 
Buckbeak), and I'm sure there were others. We haven't heard of any other DE 
with that kind of totalitarian power over everyone. He has an obvioius 
hatred for Muggles and "Mudbloods", and we all know about Tom Riddle's 
opinion of his father...it's all about The Cause, baby, and Lucius is a big 
believer.

<2. Who are the Lestranges that are serving time in Azkaban?>

That seems rather retorical, since no one really knows, and...I have no 
clue.

<3. Will Voldemort get the dementors and the giants to follow him in his
"army of creatures whom all fear"?>

That really is The Question, isn't it? I would think that the dementors 
would be all too willing to join up with him, since what they want are happy 
people to suck to joy out of, and I'm sure Voldemort would provide them with 
the people he has abducted and has no use for. However, we must remember 
that the dementors are not evil; they are currently compling with the 
Ministry by working at Azkaban, and not roaming the streets sucking the 
souls from children. Of course, they *are* dark creatures. Hmmm. I think the 
jury is still out on them. As for Giants, I would think they would be likely 
to help the good side, since Hagrid is such a sweetie. Plus, the moral of 
these books seems to be "Sterotypes are almost always very wrong", and 
everyone thinks that Giants are bad, soooo. Of course, they are thought to 
be bad, and that might mean they are predjudice. . . and Hagrid is a half 
breed of human/giant, so that might not go over so well.

<4. And of course the eternal question. Why did Voldemort untie Harry and 
give him back his wand?>

I think that Voldemort was either trying to show all of his minions (the 
Death Eaters) that he could kill the silly Potter boy even when he was 
armed, that what happened before was just a fluke, etc. Or he was just 
toying with Harry, letting him think he might have a chance, and then bling, 
pow, he's dead.


==============
"Morsus Crustum/Dervish/Blythe Spirit"

My Personal Ship: Draco/Harry
Favorite HP Character: Lucius Malfoy
Favorite Actor: Tom Felton...and Daniel Radcliffe. *sob*
Creepy Knowladge: "Draco" is in 27 frames of the trailer
Favorite Movie: The Harry Potter Trailer *snerk*

"I'll cable Hitler and tell him to shoot around you."



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ljl236 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 23:11:05 2001
From: ljl236 at yahoo.com (LJL)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:11:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: snape's cruelty and Dorothy Dunnett
In-Reply-To: <983813608.7380.53536.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010305231105.23711.qmail@web9101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13666

   Rebecca, LOL in delight over your Dunnett observations. 
     I'm ashamed to say I don't follow you with the bifocals. But if DD
were writing HP, a Greek with a wooden leg would come to teach
Divination....and we'd have a hard time figuring out the plot...BUT we'd
gradually learn why Harry is said to resemble Tom Riddle. 
   Wait, maybe DD has a hand in this after all...
   Lilah


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 23:16:30 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:16:30 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <fd.32ae67f.27d55651@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9816oe+ua2n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13667

Mrs. Weasley is also well aware of her daughter Ginny's infatuation 
with Harry. *smile*


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 03/05/2001 3:19:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> simon.branford at h... writes:
> 
> << I am a H/H person. The true H/H, which is Harry/Hedwig >>
> 
> LMAO!  I love that!  I've always thought about writing a fanfic 
where Hedwig 
> is an animagus in disguise.....
> 
> I haven't exactly been following this discussion from day one, 
but...has no 
> one pointed out that Harry goes out of his way to point out to Mrs. 
Weasley 
> that he and Hermione are just friends? (If so then ignore my late 
ramblings.) 
>  Now, that may have been just to get Mrs. W to stop being so cold to 
Hermione 
> in the first place, but I've always wondered if the reason why Mrs. 
W was so 
> cold to her was because she knew of her son's crush on Hermione.  
She 
> immediately "became warmer to Hermione after that."  Mrs. W may have 
motherly 
> affections for Harry, but I feel that she was thinking of Ron's 
feelings for 
> Hermione, who was made out by Skeeter to be a "Scarlet Woman."  
> 
> Cheers,
> Paula
> Gryffindor (who should probably add that she's a Ron/Hermione 
shipper....in 
> addition to being on the Ginny/Harry ship.)




From rebrown12 at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  5 23:20:47 2001
From: rebrown12 at earthlink.net (Ruth Brown)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:20:47 -0500
Subject: R/H ship?
Message-ID: <412001315232047460@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13668


My first post, so forgive any mishaps, but I love this discussion about Ron 
and Hemione.  

 

I haven't seen anyone mention Hermione's visit to Krum over the summer - 
the beginning of the next book, perhaps?  The desire of Krum to attend 
Hogwarts next year to complete his wizard training?  I see a really 
interesting love triangle that even Days of Our Lives writers would be desperate 
to get their claws into.  

 

I see Ron as very reactionary in his emotions - he doesn't think much 
before he talks and then he usually says something he'll regret, but then he is 
overly stubborn (much like Harry) to apologize even when he knows he 
should.  Playing a bit on the male stereotype, eh JK?  Maybe Hermione 
IS attracted to Krum because he is famous like Harry, yet she is relieved by his 
seemingly MATURE attitude towards relationships.  And what girl wouldn't 
swoon to know that she was the one thing most prized that was taken by the 
merpeople?  That would go along way to gain my affection.  When I was 
14, I'da flipped if the captain of the football team had the hots for me like 
that, but I'm marrying someone like Ron, so... there are a few years to go in 
the series... 

 

I cannot remember who mentioned it, but I love the idea that Snape had a 
crush on Lily Potter (before she was "Potter," of course).  This could help 
cross the generations and connect some of the story lines (like we have already 
seen in the Maurauders' Map).

--- Ruth E. Brown

--- ICQ #65931921

--- rebrown12 at earthlink.net 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Mon Mar  5 23:24:30 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:24:30 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <9816oe+ua2n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98177e+q3ct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13669


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> Mrs. Weasley is also well aware of her daughter Ginny's infatuation 
> with Harry. *smile*
-----

Erm. If that was the explanation for her coldness to Hermione, that 
would make Mrs, Weasley a pretty awful person. Punishing a teenage 
girl for dating a boy that has never shown the slightest bit of 
interest in your daughter at all? Oh dear. I really like her, so I'd 
hope that's not the case.


Cassandra

> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 03/05/2001 3:19:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> > simon.branford at h... writes:
> > 
> > << I am a H/H person. The true H/H, which is Harry/Hedwig >>
> > 
> > LMAO!  I love that!  I've always thought about writing a fanfic 
> where Hedwig 
> > is an animagus in disguise.....
> > 
> > I haven't exactly been following this discussion from day one, 
> but...has no 
> > one pointed out that Harry goes out of his way to point out to 
Mrs. 
> Weasley 
> > that he and Hermione are just friends? (If so then ignore my late 
> ramblings.) 
> >  Now, that may have been just to get Mrs. W to stop being so cold 
to 
> Hermione 
> > in the first place, but I've always wondered if the reason why 
Mrs. 
> W was so 
> > cold to her was because she knew of her son's crush on Hermione.  
> She 
> > immediately "became warmer to Hermione after that."  Mrs. W may 
have 
> motherly 
> > affections for Harry, but I feel that she was thinking of Ron's 
> feelings for 
> > Hermione, who was made out by Skeeter to be a "Scarlet Woman."  
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Paula
> > Gryffindor (who should probably add that she's a Ron/Hermione 
> shipper....in 
> > addition to being on the Ginny/Harry ship.)




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 23:36:32 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:36:32 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <98177e+q3ct@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9817u0+nh2m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13670


I was teasing, Cassandra. *smile* Mainly I think that Ginny is the 
Weasley whois most obviously lovelorn.

My own point of view is that Mrs. Weasley is cold to Hermione because 
A.) The idea of anyone hurting Harry! and B.) Heavens! My son's best 
friend is... is... a VIXEN!!

She is in short being motherly and maybe a bit conservative. Probably 
a little embarrassed to admit it. I don't think she means any harm, 
and quickly warms back up to Hermione.

--Suzanne



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> > Mrs. Weasley is also well aware of her daughter Ginny's 
infatuation 
> > with Harry. *smile*
> -----
> 
> Erm. If that was the explanation for her coldness to Hermione, that 
> would make Mrs, Weasley a pretty awful person. Punishing a teenage 
> girl for dating a boy that has never shown the slightest bit of 
> interest in your daughter at all? Oh dear. I really like her, so I'd 
> hope that's not the case.
> 
> 
> Cassandra
> 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> > > In a message dated 03/05/2001 3:19:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> > > simon.branford at h... writes:
> > > 
> > > << I am a H/H person. The true H/H, which is Harry/Hedwig >>
> > > 
> > > LMAO!  I love that!  I've always thought about writing a fanfic 
> > where Hedwig 
> > > is an animagus in disguise.....
> > > 
> > > I haven't exactly been following this discussion from day one, 
> > but...has no 
> > > one pointed out that Harry goes out of his way to point out to 
> Mrs. 
> > Weasley 
> > > that he and Hermione are just friends? (If so then ignore my 
late 
> > ramblings.) 
> > >  Now, that may have been just to get Mrs. W to stop being so 
cold 
> to 
> > Hermione 
> > > in the first place, but I've always wondered if the reason why 
> Mrs. 
> > W was so 
> > > cold to her was because she knew of her son's crush on Hermione. 
 
> > She 
> > > immediately "became warmer to Hermione after that."  Mrs. W may 
> have 
> > motherly 
> > > affections for Harry, but I feel that she was thinking of Ron's 
> > feelings for 
> > > Hermione, who was made out by Skeeter to be a "Scarlet Woman."  
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > Paula
> > > Gryffindor (who should probably add that she's a Ron/Hermione 
> > shipper....in 
> > > addition to being on the Ginny/Harry ship.)




From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar  5 23:42:28 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:42:28 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
Message-ID: <17.1278f7a0.27d57e64@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13671

In a message dated 03/05/2001 6:26:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cassandraclaire at mail.com writes:

<<  If that was the explanation for her coldness to Hermione, that 
 would make Mrs, Weasley a pretty awful person.  >>

I disagree.  I don't think she was punishing Hermione. From Mrs. Weasley's 
point of view, if the article was correct, then *two* of her children stood a 
chance of being hurt.  I think she was just reacting like a mother would.  

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar  5 23:45:14 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:45:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Personal Cast (was Re: Ship?? Me and ... Sirius or Snape?)
References: <17.12748391.27d527cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c0a5ce$59126e40$3914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13672



  Snape *is* a hottie!  LOL, I liked him from the first, since after reading 
  the PS/SS book and coming to the conclusion (hopless romantic that I am) that 
  Snape might have been in love with Lily.  There is no basis for this in the 
  books, except in my own imagination. 
  Cheers,
  Paula
  Gryffindor

  I never thought that Snape was a hottie .. but I definitely think Alan Rickman who plays him is. 

  I don't know about Snape having been in love with Lily, but I think that Voldemort might have been.

  Doreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From katie at vquill.com  Mon Mar  5 23:47:44 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:47:44 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Personal Cast (was Re: Ship?? Me and ... Sirius or Snape?)
In-Reply-To: <005d01c0a5ce$59126e40$3914a3d1@doreen>
References: <17.12748391.27d527cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010305154640.00b21870@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13673

At 05:45 PM 3/5/01 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>   I never thought that Snape was a hottie .. but I definitely think Alan 
> Rickman who plays him is.
>
>   I don't know about Snape having been in love with Lily, but I think 
> that Voldemort might have been.
>
>   Doreen


It's an interesting idea, but how would they have met?  Voldy was at 
hogwarts a good 30 (?) years before Lily was, wasn't he?

-Katie





From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar  6 00:00:38 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:00:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ghostly Potters
References: <980l71+tf31@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006601c0a5d0$8133a540$3914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13674

What makes some witches/wizards become ghosts after they die and some not? 

You don't really find that out until Book VII, but I can say that the happiest people do not become ghosts. As you might guess, Moaning Myrtle! 

I can not find the other part... sorry

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: joym999 at aol.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:17 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ghostly Potters


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
  > JKR has promised that she will reveal why some people become ghosts 
  and
  > others don't.  What if Harry's parents are ghosts who are tied to 
  Godric's
  > Hollow?   [snip]
  > What do the ghosts of Nearly Headless Nick, The Fat Friar, The 
  Bloody Baron,
  > and Myrtle have in common?  Why are they at Hogwarts?

  Good questions from the good sister.  I think JKR sort of addressed 
  them at an interview.  Someone less senile than I will probably 
  remember better, but didnt JKR say specifically that

  (1) Happy people do not become ghosts; and
  (2) James and Lily ARE not ghosts.

  Of course, I could be making that up, if so, just lock me back in my 
  cage.

  --Joywitch




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From paxber at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 00:05:36 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 00:05:36 -0000
Subject: Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters
In-Reply-To: <9814jq+uhf9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9819kg+oi5f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13675

--- Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> > > 
> > 2. Who are the Lestranges that are serving time in Azkaban?
> 
> I think they are the death eaters who were caught with Crouch Jr.  
> They continued to openly act as dark wizards even after Voldie lost 
> his power and so many death eaters crawled to the Minstry crying 
foul.

I agree, but I seem to recall (out of town, don't have my books 
here :-(     ) that they were also the ones who tortured Neville's 
parents.

Paula, who has also been sorted into Ravenclaw (I'm going to have to 
find a good nom, since Paula from Gryffindor was here first!)







From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Mar  6 00:08:02 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 00:08:02 -0000
Subject: The Ghostly Potters
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEKDDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <9819p2+cvsf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13676

 "Sister Mary Lunatic"  wrote:
 
> I've always found it strange that Harry has a remarkable lack of
> investigative curiosity concerning the death of his parents.  He's
> apparently never done any research into old news items, or talked 
much to
> older people about his parents; he was apparently even unaware of 
HOW they
> had been killed until Moody's first DADA lesson for 4th-Years when 
the Avada
> Kedavra curse was demonstrated.
> 

I guess Harry follows the "what you don't know won't hurt you" 
sentiment. Even the photo album Hagrid gave him in SS/PS, Harry didn't 
pick it up again until PoA. It makes me wonder why Harry shows an 
extreme lack of curiosity about his parents. 

If I were told that my parents were magical and that I, as an infant, 
took down the world's greatest villian, I would be very curious about 
it all.  

:-)Milz




From bohners at pobox.com  Tue Mar  6 00:16:36 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:16:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] snape's cruelty and Dorothy Dunnett
References: <20010305231105.23711.qmail@web9101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0a3601c0a5d2$b95bf2e0$3f3cacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 13677

> I'm ashamed to say I don't follow you with the bifocals. But if DD
> were writing HP, a Greek with a wooden leg would come to teach
> Divination....and we'd have a hard time figuring out the plot...BUT we'd
> gradually learn why Harry is said to resemble Tom Riddle.

*giggling*

I knew I could count on someone to add to the list.

FWIW, the "bifocals" joke comes from the Johnson Johnson mysteries, which
are my favorite unappreciated Dunnett works.  They all begin with some
comment about Johnson's bifocal glasses.
--
The Marauder's Map
rebeccaj at pobox.com




From paxber at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 00:14:38 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 00:14:38 -0000
Subject: SHIP--Ron and the Yule Brawl (yawn)
In-Reply-To: <9814uv+15bg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <981a5e+h3eq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13678

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> Taking for granted FITD (new members, check the archives--no time 
to 
> explain it), 

Sorry, but could someone *please*? I tried searching the archives -- 
first of this group, but only found messages from this month that 
didn't really explain it. Then I joined the HPfGU archives group and 
searched that and for some odd reason still didn't find anything, 
even though I know it must be there.  I even tried both fitd and FITD 
just in case, though I don't think YahooGroups is case-sensitive.

Paula2




From fefe at fazekas.hu  Tue Mar  6 00:18:46 2001
From: fefe at fazekas.hu (fefe at fazekas.hu)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 00:18:46 -0000
Subject: Stupid thoughts about half-giants :)
In-Reply-To: <97uokf+s16r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <981ad6+uo6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13679

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nlpnt at y... wrote:
> Yup, Engorgement Charm. But on all of Pa Hagrid, or just his.....

Probably on all of him, unless he's in a very good physical 
condition :)

> (AHEM) Anyway. Just curious, Fefe, but how long have you been 
sitting 
> on that question; I can hear the embarrassment in your voice as you 
> type! Oh, and the grand total of 5 smilies adds to that impression, 
> too :)

Excuse me about this, i always use too much smilies... I've almost 
put one here, too... :) Ahh, i did it again :) Btw having read all 
your thoughtful discussions, i got embarrassed because i'm disturbing 
you with my unimportant, stupid post ;) 

Another "problem": in the case of an ordinary mother and a giant 
father, pregnancy and the birth of the child can not be too 
pleasant :) OK, i have to go learning, i'm having a Digital Systems 
univ. exam tomorrow...

bye

  Fefe




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 00:21:26 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:21:26 EST
Subject: More Trailer Comments- Effects
Message-ID: <83.7b3224d.27d58786@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13680

In a message dated Fri, 2 Mar 2001  2:25:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at primenet.com> writes:

<<14. They seemed very careful not to show many special effects... we don't
see any ghosts, we don't see any Quidditch, and the only 'supernatural'
critters we see are the goblins. (We see no Fluffy, no unicorn, no centaurs,
no baby dragon, no Invisibility Cloak, no Mirror of Erised, and of course,
nothing from the climactic scenes where they get past the barriers to the
Stone...).  Even if I wear out my computer re-watching the trailer, there's
still guaranteed to be plenty of delicious scenes to provide a wonderful
movie experience. (I got the 22 MB avi file from the UK - the one that plays
on Windows Media Player -- it plays quite smoothly, but I have 128 MB of
RAM, thank heaven.)>>


The effects are not done yet and they are very, very propriatary. Nothing is getting out of marketing that they do not want released.


~Hedwig~





From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 00:23:59 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:23:59 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Well....
Message-ID: <33.118ad210.27d5881f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13681

In a message dated Fri, 2 Mar 2001  8:41:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at osu.edu> writes:

BUT, I wish I had WebTV or some way to get a great shot of Alan 
as Snape.  I'd freeze the picture and look at it from all different 
angles....across the room, from the kitchen, off to the side from my 
couch, two inches from the screen.  And I still have the same 
opinion that he's totally HOT!  Grrrrrrrr.......I would like to choke the 
casting people.  I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE A CRUSH ON 
SNAPE!  IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT!!!  :-)<>>


Agreed! Snape looks incredibly yummy....


~Hedwig~



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 00:27:16 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 00:27:16 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <17.1278f7a0.27d57e64@aol.com>
Message-ID: <981at4+3m2h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13682

Sigh... swimming back...

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 03/05/2001 6:26:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> cassandraclaire at m... writes:
> 
> <<  If that was the explanation for her coldness to Hermione, that 
>  would make Mrs, Weasley a pretty awful person.  >>
> 
> I disagree.  I don't think she was punishing Hermione. From Mrs. 
Weasley's 
> point of view, if the article was correct, then *two* of her 
children stood a 
> chance of being hurt.  I think she was just reacting like a mother 
would.  
> 

Sorry... I don't buy this at all.  Molly Weasley's not a fool.  She 
wasn't born yesterday.  She had to know what sort of journalist Rita 
Skeeter was if only from the post-World Cup article (see GoF, "Mayhem 
at the Ministry").  I'm sure Rita Skeeter had a reputation around 
England's wizarding community for yellow journalism.  

Is she that horrible a judge of character?  Valuing Rita Skeeter's 
word--a woman who gave her husband, Dumbledore, and Hagrid hell--
people Molly Weasley should respect if only by association--over 
everything she knows about the type of girl Hermione is?

The reactions of the kids to the articles were not surprising... kids 
are kids, after all.

But Molly's reaction provided some insight into her character.  Don't 
get me wrong, you won't find anyone on my ship who loves the Weasley 
family as much as I do, and I adore Molly as a character, but... she 
was wrong.  In all fairness, one must admit that she jumped to 
conclusions.  

As for two of her children "standing a chance of being hurt"... well, 
Hermione *was* hurt.  Remember the bubotuber pus?  And all for the 
sin of offending Rita Skeeter and being portrayed as some sort 
of "vixen" (love that term!).  I'd think that would warrant motherly 
affection... not a cold shoulder.  Especially from a woman who wants 
me for her son.

It's all becoming clear now... it's a Weasley family conspiracy to 
Railroad Hermione into Becoming One of Them!  Molly Weasley, 
Matchmaker Extraordinaire!  Muwhahahahahaha!  

:::giggling, then sobering up:::

I think I'll stick around this evening for a while... waiting on DS 
anyway... so the margarita and beach massages can wait.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar  6 00:33:26 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:33:26 -0600
Subject: SHIP--Ron and the Yule Brawl (yawn) (another ADMIN reminder)
References: <981a5e+h3eq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA43056.E4D0CC68@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13683

Hi --

paxber at yahoo.com wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> > Taking for granted FITD (new members, check the archives--no time
> to
> > explain it),
>
> Sorry, but could someone *please*? I tried searching the archives --
> first of this group, but only found messages from this month that
> didn't really explain it.

It's in the Acronym Sheet -- the one that I posted the link to this
morning!  :--)

But, here it is anyway:

FITD -- Farmer in the Dell Theory
    Ron likes Hermione
    Hermione likes Harry
    Harry likes no one or someone outside the Trio

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 00:40:47 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Clayton)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:40:47 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ghostly Potters
Message-ID: <F57mTIVvLVKi3s1wsXZ0000011e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13684

This is a bit OT, and i don't know if anyone else has pointed this out, but 
has it been noticed that the Potters lived in Godrics Hollow - ie, Godric 
Gryffindor?

Liz
-----
'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry.
'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second cousin who's 
an accountant, but we never talk about him.'
-----


>From: "Doreen" <nera at rconnect.com>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ghostly Potters
>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:00:38 -0600
>
>What makes some witches/wizards become ghosts after they die and some not?
>
>You don't really find that out until Book VII, but I can say that the 
>happiest people do not become ghosts. As you might guess, Moaning Myrtle!
>
>I can not find the other part... sorry
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: joym999 at aol.com
>   To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:17 PM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ghostly Potters
>
>
>   --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
>   > JKR has promised that she will reveal why some people become ghosts
>   and
>   > others don't.  What if Harry's parents are ghosts who are tied to
>   Godric's
>   > Hollow?   [snip]
>   > What do the ghosts of Nearly Headless Nick, The Fat Friar, The
>   Bloody Baron,
>   > and Myrtle have in common?  Why are they at Hogwarts?
>
>   Good questions from the good sister.  I think JKR sort of addressed
>   them at an interview.  Someone less senile than I will probably
>   remember better, but didnt JKR say specifically that
>
>   (1) Happy people do not become ghosts; and
>   (2) James and Lily ARE not ghosts.
>
>   Of course, I could be making that up, if so, just lock me back in my
>   cage.
>
>   --Joywitch
>
>
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>         Click here for Classmates.com
>
>
>   _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
>   From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to 
>the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort 
>through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
>   Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point 
>your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to 
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>
>
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>



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From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar  6 00:44:50 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:44:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort/Lily
References: <17.12748391.27d527cd@aol.com> <4.2.0.58.20010305154640.00b21870@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <00c901c0a5d6$a8a8e800$3914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13685

At 05:45 PM 3/5/01 -0600, you wrote:

   I never thought that Snape was a hottie .. but I definitely think Alan Rickman who plays him is.
   I don't know about Snape having been in love with Lily, but I think that Voldemort might have been.
Doreen

It's an interesting idea, but how would they have met?  Voldy was at 
hogwarts a good 30 (?) years before Lily was, wasn't he?

-Katie

Just one more reason to hate him? ... Cuz he is a dirty old man. (sorry, I guess I didn't think that one out when I typed it) 

I do wonder at his statement that she did not need to die ... villain that he is ... if he was there to kill James and Harry .. why would he NOT have killed Lily? He must have not intended to ... or the thought of not needing to would make no sense.
Doreen 





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Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

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From rina at love-productions.com  Tue Mar  6 00:47:17 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:47:17 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ghostly Potters
Message-ID: <003001c0a5d6$fedc2ac0$8e2c9fac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 13686

Possibly SML wrote:

<<>   > What do the ghosts of Nearly Headless Nick, The Fat Friar, The
>   Bloody Baron,
>   > and Myrtle have in common?  Why are they at Hogwarts?>>

Well, Myrtle at least died at Hogwarts, and she spends most of her time where she died. Prof. Binns also died at Hogwarts and stays there. My guess is that the house ghosts also died there.

I've been at no mail for the past 5 days while I was on vacation, and am just jumping right back in. <g> I got kinda confused in various responses as to who said what, so I appologize if I attributed the above question to the wrong person. : )

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 01:11:19 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:11:19 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The music
Message-ID: <38.12dfe224.27d59337@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13687

In a message dated Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:03:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at osu.edu> writes:

<< One thing I've learned through the last dozen years or so...never 
trust the music you hear in a trailer.  It doesn't mean the music we 
hear on the trailer is even in the movie at all.  It's very John 
Williams-ish with a touch of Danny Elfman...this is true.  But...it 
doesn't mean that this is the music they'll be using.>>

Very true!

Did you all notice the trailer music for 'Cast Away' was the music for Braveheart?


~Hedwig~




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 01:14:55 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:14:55 EST
Subject: WB Servers
Message-ID: <ce.117cdeed.27d5940f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13688

In a message dated Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:24:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, John Walton <john at walton.to> writes:


--John, who wishes that WB would upgrade their servers -- it took 2 hours to
actually get a connection to download the hi-res QT trailer!>>>

Unfortunately, it isn't the servers that are having the problem. It is the sheer number of people accessing the net at the same time and trying to download the trailer.....

Think of a highway/freeway...the more people on it, the slower it gets....


~Hedwig~



From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Mar  6 01:17:44 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:17:44 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ghostly Potters
In-Reply-To: <006601c0a5d0$8133a540$3914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMELEDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13689

>>>>>>...the happiest people do not become ghosts<<<<<<<

Hmmm... the Fat Friar seems pretty jolly.  Professor Binns doesn't seem
particularly UNhappy, just lost in a fog of magical history.  Sir "Properly
Decapitated Podmore" seems rather ebullient.

Oh well....

I'm still trying to figure out exactly WHAT those ghostly people who came
out of Voldemort's want WERE.  They apparently could think for themselves,
and knew they were dead, but also knew that they couldn't stick around for
very long.

Well, I'll go back to sucking my thumb and waiting for Books 5, 6, and 7.

SML

==============================================
"Very well," said Madame Maxime, bowing
slightly. "Will you please inform zis 'Agrid
zat ze 'orses drink only single-malt
whiskey?"
     --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
==============================================




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Tue Mar  6 01:20:13 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:20:13 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <17.1278f7a0.27d57e64@aol.com>
Message-ID: <981e0d+oio8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13690

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:

> 
> I disagree.  I don't think she was punishing Hermione. From Mrs. 
Weasley's 
> point of view, if the article was correct, then *two* of her 
children stood a 
> chance of being hurt.  I think she was just reacting like a mother 
would.  
> 
____

Sorry. I'm with Ebony, I don't buy that at all. She WAS punishing 
Hermione, for goodness sake she pointedly gave the girl a substandard 
present, and glared at her, and was cold to her, and so on. I just 
think she was punishing her for a percieved maltreatment of Harry, 
and not for any other reason. Like I've said before, Mrs. Weasley 
loves Harry, is protective of him, and doubtless thinks that with all 
the loss in his life, it would be a sad thing indeed if his first 
girlfriend stomped all over his heart with hobnailed boots. 

This in no way supports any particular ship, either, IMHO. I simply 
happen to believe that Mrs. Weasley cares about Harry, is protective 
of him, that this speaks very well of her and her family, and that 
she is not the type of person to go around being nasty to teenage 
girls over things they cannot help. We all already agree that Ron 
likes Hermione anyway. That theory needs no extraneous support.

Cassandra




From Emerald7586 at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 01:28:24 2001
From: Emerald7586 at aol.com (Emerald7586 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:28:24 -0000
Subject: SHIP: re: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <3AA40BD7.9DB06A19@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <981efo+sr3r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13691

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

> 
> I know this is a general observation, but it does appear to me that 
of
> the teenagers on the list who have spoken up on the issue (or who 
have
> spoken to listies like Ebony & Cassie & Heather), more of them 
interpret
> Hermione as liking Harry than liking Ron.  Interesting.  :--)

I'd say general, too.  I happen to actually be 14, and I have to say 
I definatly sympathize with the R/HE camp (ship?) for reasons which 
have been gone over numerous times and that I'm sure no one 
(especially the no-shippers) wants to hear again.

 
> Bbennett said:
> 
> > Having been a 14 year old girl, I have to disagree with your
> > reasoning, Simon.  At that age, I never would have said something
> > like that to a boy (and a close friend, at that) and have expected
> > him to take it as a generic, blanket sort of statement - as a 30 
year
> > old, I'd still assume that by saying something like this I'm
> > letting the guy know I'm interested!
> >
> Well, I've been a 14 yr old girl myself, and I agree with Simon.  
They
> were having a fight.  The words were spoken in anger, and most of us
> have agreed that it seems most likely that the words that prompted 
her
> remark were not personal.  So, why should her retort be taken as
> personal if his initial triggering remark wasn't personal?


Again, actually being a 14 year old (girl, BTW), albeit a somewhat 
shy and reserved one, I would NEVER say that to a guy unless I was 
interested and let my mouth run away with me, as could be the 
scenario due to the argument.

Although I would dearly love for Harry and Ginny and Ron and Hermione 
to start going out in the next book, grow up, and get married, 
because I'm a sucker for happy endings (I feed my hunger for G/H, R/H 
happy endings with fanfiction), I hardly see G/H happening, and 
although R/H is definatly a possibility in future books (to me, 
anyway), I really don't see them as having a Corey - Topanga 
relationship and going out for the rest of their Hogwarts years and 
then getting married.  How many people actually marry their first 
boyfriend or girlfriend?  But then again, this is fiction.  Who's to 
say that JKR won't make it happen?   

Emerald  




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 01:30:00 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:30:00 EST
Subject: Trailer - CGI and Scars
Message-ID: <cc.1192cb28.27d59799@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13692

In a message dated Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:22:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, kris403 at yahoo.com writes:

<< I give up.  I can't possibly keep up with all the posts on this site.  >>

That is an understatement if I've ever heard one! :)

<<I for one was very happy to see that there didn't seem to be a lot of phony looking computer animation.  The goblins were real, not generated.>>

You haven't seen the CGI yet. It's not completed. There will be quite a bit of it...including Fluffy.

Re-scars. A scar is not always easy to see. Only an extreme close-up will reveal it. But then...they could CGI the scar as well.....


~Hedwig~



From rboswell at mediaone.net  Tue Mar  6 01:28:34 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:28:34 -0500
Subject: Ron/Hermione from the viewpoint of a 14 yr. old
References: <983838442.2222.60676.l9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c0a5dc$c2d067c0$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13693

<delurks>

    About the Ron/Hermione brawl, as a 14 year old myself I think Hermione
WAS egging Ron into asking her out.  A statement like
"Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a
last resort!" from a teen is an act of frustration because of total
crush-ness.  Most people my age certainly wouldn't say that to their best
friend if it didn't mean something.  IMHO Hermione *is* telling Ron, "You
should have asked me first and if you don't next time I'll learn a new
unforgivable curse to use on you!".  And plus, why would Ron tear apart his
little Krum "action figure" (arm found under bed...forgot which chapter...)
if he wasn't jealous?  Fraternizing with the "enemy" couldn't have been why
Ron was angry, because he got Krum's autograph in the end.   There are lots
of other facts that point to a Ron/Hermione romance, and I think it's coming
up in canon.

Becca, who really needs to get a life.

<trudges back into lurk-dom>




From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Mar  6 01:34:09 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:34:09 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <981e0d+oio8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <981eqh+313h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13694


> Bbennett said:

> > Having been a 14 year old girl, I have to disagree with your
reasoning, Simon.  At that age, I never would have said  
something like that to a boy (and a close friend, at that) and have 
expected him to take it as a generic, blanket sort of statement - 
as a 30 year old, I'd still assume that by saying something like 
this I'm letting the guy know I'm interested!>>

Penny wrote: 
> Well, I've been a 14 yr old girl myself, and I agree with Simon.  
They were having a fight.  The words were spoken in anger, and 
most of us have agreed that it seems most likely that the words 
that prompted her remark were not personal.  So, why should 
her retort be taken as personal if his initial triggering remark 
wasn't personal?

I do agree that the words that prompted her remark weren't 
personal, but I think she was aware that the feelings behind 
them were.  Ron spent the days leading up to the ball repeatedly 
questioning her on whom she was going with; he also blew the 
issue of her appearing at the ball with Viktor ridiculously out of 
proportion, then spent the better part of the evening sulking. 
Compare this with Harry, who didn't pester her about her date 
and wasn't horrible to her at the ball. I think it's quite possible 
that by the end of the evening she was aware Viktor wasn't the 
real issue, and that her final words were not just about him 
running the Viktor thing into the ground, but in being too chicken 
to say what the problem really was. That's the way I interpreted it. 

Oh, and my 2 cents on the Rita Skeeter article thing - I simply 
took it that Molly was outraged on Harry's behalf and didn't think 
(as Ebony pointed out, she should have been more than aware 
of Rita's less than honest writing). That's all.

> Penny (who should be doing a million other things right now ...)

And I bet half of those aren't as much fun as this :*)

B




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 01:36:47 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:36:47 EST
Subject: Music
Message-ID: <6b.10b59429.27d5992f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13695

The music is very reminicent of Indiana Jones in many places and Star Wars others. I'd never really listened to the track before. Hard to keep the eyes off the picture and focus on the music...:)


~Hedwig~



From zsenya at sugarquill.com  Tue Mar  6 01:49:03 2001
From: zsenya at sugarquill.com (zsenya at sugarquill.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:49:03 -0000
Subject: Announcement: W.A.I.L.
Message-ID: <981fmf+7se0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13696

I hope this is okay - I just wanted to invite anyone who's interested 
to pay a visit to a new section on our sugarquill website.  W.A.I.L 
(the Weasley Adoration and Idolatry League) is now up and running at 
http://www.sugarquill.com/wail.html.  There's a section devoted to 
each member of the Weasley family, including quotes, fan fiction, and 
fan art.  Soon to come will be links to other fan sites.

It's not completely done - our quotes only go up to CoS and I haven't 
finished all the fan fic links yet (it's not so easy to find fan 
fiction focusing on Arthur or Charlie Weasley, for example...).   We 
need help! Any suggestions for fan fic to link to, fan art or links, 
etc. can be posted at our W.A.I.L. discussion board.

Hope to see you there!
Zsenya
(who would really love to get into the whole R/H Yule Ball debate, 
but feels that her shipmates are keeping afloat quite nicely...)




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 02:11:29 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:11:29 -0800
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
Message-ID: <F50BnccYTjr8cU6xfPT000001b2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13697


Arrgh. I have been resisting the temptation to respond to this, but I must. 
As my alter ego, I hold the postion of Marketing Director on the good ship 
R/Hr, so I'll fight for them.

Ron and Hermione's post Yule Ball fight: I think that what Hermione said was 
a mix of frustration at the fact that Ron obviously was ignoring the real 
issue - that he liked her - and blurting out what was on her mind. If you 
will remember, she turned on her heel and ran up the stairs after saying 
this, so she obviously wasn't too keen on sticking around to hear his 
thoughts on the matter...and maybe she was a little embaressed.

Mrs. Weasley: Honestly. I think that the Weasleys have made Harry be a 
surrogate member of their family. Mrs. Weasley's mother hen instincts take 
over when she's around him - more than they do with her own children! She 
thought that Hermione, who she never really got to know, was toying with 
poor, orphaned, vulnerable (<- all in her eyes) Harry. She wanted to protect 
him. IMNSHO, nothing more.


MC/Ginny Love
Slogan of the moment -
The Kiss: Proof denies faith.




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From Zarleycat at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 02:24:28 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 02:24:28 -0000
Subject: SS's cruelty/Dorothy Dunnett
In-Reply-To: <092f01c0a595$7c89f520$3f3cacce@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <981hos+v615@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13698

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:
 
> IF DOROTHY DUNNETT WROTE THE HP BOOKS...
> ...Harry's glasses would be bifocals.
> ...By four books into the series, Harry would have more scars than 
Mad-Eye
> Moody.
> ...Snape, driven by self-loathing at the cruelty he must show to the
> Gryffindors, would be taking massive doses of opium and ranting in 
his
> sleep.
> and
> ...In the giant chess game at the end of PS, Ron would have DIED.
> 
> (Apologies to those who have no idea what I'm talking about, but I 
couldn't
> resist.) --

Interesting thoughts on Dunnett.  However, if we're going to draw 
parallels between Snape and Francis Crawford, Snape has to quote the 
classics, develop a fashion sense and be more particular about his 
grooming regimen!!

Marianne, who is awfully fond of blond, Scottish bad boys, as well as 
black-haired, wizard bad boys.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 02:49:07 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 02:49:07 -0000
Subject: Ron/Hermione from the viewpoint of a 14 yr. old
In-Reply-To: <000e01c0a5dc$c2d067c0$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <981j73+f8f2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13699

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rebecca Boswell" <rboswell at m...> wrote:
> <delurks>
> 
>     About the Ron/Hermione brawl, as a 14 year old myself I think 
Hermione
> WAS egging Ron into asking her out.  A statement like
> "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not 
as a
> last resort!" from a teen is an act of frustration because of total
> crush-ness.  Most people my age certainly wouldn't say that to their 
best
> friend if it didn't mean something.  IMHO Hermione *is* telling Ron, 
"You
> should have asked me first and if you don't next time I'll learn a 
new
> unforgivable curse to use on you!".

Becca-

You are 14?  I wish you were one of my students!  Anyway, you 
explained exactly what I think about the R/H ship.  I think it's 
really that simple (not that I'm criticizing all the psychoanalyzing 
:-) ).  Ron is just too awkward and silly to realize that his 
disappointment in Hermione going with someone else was because he 
wanted to ask her but didn't have the nerve!  

By the way, I love Harry even more for asking Cho because that's hard 
for a 14 year old to do - even if he is a famous and powerful wizard.

--Jenny from Ravenc




From tmayor at mediaone.net  Tue Mar  6 03:22:03 2001
From: tmayor at mediaone.net (tmayor at mediaone.net)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 03:22:03 -0000
Subject: Voldie's Insecurities (was Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters)
In-Reply-To: <F200A5ycQpCiygl2UJE00004635@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <981l4r+jq4g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13700

Hi...I've been lurking on this list for a long time but couldn't 
resist adding one thought to the excellent summary of the DE chapter 
regarding Voldemort's state of mind. 

He starts off the chapter being happy with his new (weird) bod, but 
gets pretty tense during the few moments he has to wait to see which 
(if any) DE's will return to him. After all, he's spent the last 13 
years in various states of loathsome amorphousness while his once-
loyal henchmen have been lunching at the Malfoy's, collecting their 
MOM paychecks and generally getting off pretty easy. I think he's 
secretly worried *nobody's* going to show--and then where would he 
be? He makes it clear he thinks his best people are still in Azkaban, 
so (with the exception maybe of Lucius Malfoy) he's stuck having to 
make his comeback with the B team. 

And it's a team that's not even 100 percent behind him. They kiss his 
robes and are obviously frightened of him, but seem kind of repulsed 
at the same time. And really, isn't every one of them better off with 
him defeated? Now they've got to go back to work killing, etc. All of 
this spills into the next chapter, where he does something really 
impressive: torturing an injured teenaged boy. And then fails to kill 
him in front of the very people he's trying to reassert power over! 
So IMO, Voldemort isn't exactly home free yet with his former 
supporters. I wonder if, in the next book, we'll see Dumbledore & Co. 
recognizing and exploiting those weaknesses before Voldemort has a 
chance to overcome them. 

That's all! 
Rosemerta




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar  6 03:03:28 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:03:28 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: OT messages to move to the OTChatter List
Message-ID: <3AA45380.4E0CFA17@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13701

Hi everyone --

Starting with March 12th, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup. This is in order to make it easier to
sort through messages and reduce overall message volume on this list.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

You will need to join this list, but as with any yahoogroup, you may set
your subscription options to (a) individual emails, (b) digests or (c)
webview only.  There are about 60 or so members over there already, and
the message volume promises to be high.  So, if you might not care much
about OT posts or care only now & again, the webview option might be a
good choice.

On this OT-Chatter list, you may discuss anything unrelated to Harry
Potter (subject to the rule against inflammatory topics - see below),
and you should, in addition, discuss the following
HP-related things on this list rather than the main HPforGrownups list
(this is *not* an exhaustive list):

*** Fanfic recommendations (recommending/discussing a fanfic by someone
else - unless
it can be tied to canon)

*** Listings of HP merchandise collections

*** Answering a roll call (e.g. for the H/H Cruiseliner or the Good Ship
R/H)

*** Detailing your results on a HP Quiz or Sorting Hat test

*** Short, fun posts, such as 'Tom Swifties'

*** Shipper Debates not supported by examples from canon

*** Opinions on HP artwork, book covers and other paraphernalia

*** Definitions or explanations of British words, phrases and traditions
related to HP

***  Exchanges of cultural information between the Americans and the
Brits

*** Anything that you would preface with "This is slightly OT but ..."

We wish this area of the club to remain friendly and welcoming, so the
Moderators will step in if any thread appears to be veering in a
contentious direction.   Examples of prohibited subjects include
politics and The Holocaust.

This message will be resent every day for the next 2 weeks.  If you've
read it once, there will be no need to re-read it.  We just want to be
sure that everyone gets the message.  Don't be surprised if you get an
e-howler (or at least a friendly reminder) from one of the Moderators if
you violate the OT policy.

Thanks for listening (more ADMIN messages to come -- please continue to
read them as they are important).

Penny
The Moderator Team




From rebrown12 at earthlink.net  Tue Mar  6 03:29:16 2001
From: rebrown12 at earthlink.net (Ruth Brown)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:29:16 -0500
Subject: Harry's curiosity
Message-ID: <41200132632916330@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13702



On 5, March, 2001, Milz wrote:

 If I were told that my parents were magical and that I, as an infant, 


 took down the world's greatest villian, I would be very curious about 


 it all.  

 

 :-)Milz

 

At first, Harry was rather curious about his past, trying to ask Dumbledore 
questions and such, but IMO, he also feels a little uncommon and out of place 
because of his noteworthy debut into the wizarding world.  I can only 
imagine what I would feel as a pre-teen and now a teenager who is 
"different."  He continually tries to take notice away from himself because 
he feels it always turns around somewhat negatively, as we see with Lockhart, 
the bafoon Dark Arts teacher, Draco Malfoy and Snape.

 

Also, he probably feels a great deal of guilt because he feels somewhat 
responsible for his mother's death.

 


--- Ruth E. Brown


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar  6 03:14:51 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:14:51 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Announcements List is up & running
Message-ID: <3AA4562B.13963220@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13703

Hi everyone --

Your Moderator Team has been hard at work, looking for ways to reduce
message volume and keep the main group friendly & organized.

We've set up another sister Yahoogroup -- the HP4GU - Announcements
list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

This list is intended for those who want to receive announcements about
HP news, book release dates, fanfic plugs by the author, notification of
new merchandise, as well as periodic summaries of what the main group
has been discussing (including those members who cannot cope with the
high posting rate on the main list).

Please note that we are requiring the types of announcements that you
see listed below be made *only* to the Announcements List.  This will
reduce message volume on the main group.  The only messages that will be
duplicated will be the ADMIN messages posted to the main group and
copied to the Announcements list.

To manage the volume on this list, it is a moderated group.  This means
that one of the Moderators on the Moderator Team must approve your
message before it gets sent out to the list.

The following announcements are permitted (not an exhaustive list -
please check with the Moderators if you are unsure about your message):

*** The HPforGrownUps Newsletter (edited by Jeralyn and Ebony)

*** ADMIN messages from the Moderator Team (copies of those posted to
the main group)

*** Announcements of chat room sessions

*** Announcements of new discussion summaries posted to the main list

*** Plugs of fanfiction (one plug per chapter by the author)

*** Plugs of HP-related events (including regional Members' meetings)

*** Plugs of new HP websites or of new HP information on other websites

*** News releases, with links (this should include things related to the
Warner Brothers' movie)

*** Fun HP links, such as Sorting Hat quizzes

*** Alerts to new HP merchandise

*** JKR sightings; JKR events (book signings, tours, TV appearances,
chats, etc.)

*** Information on HP fan clubs

Again, we encourage everyone to join this group as well.  The message
volume should remain relatively low & focused (because the Moderators
must approve each message, you can be assured that the subject heading
will be relevant!).

Please remember that beginning March 12th, fanfic plugs, merchandise
sightings, news links and the like need to be posted *only* to the
Announcements list.  This message will be repeated several times over
the next few weeks to be sure everyone is aware of the changes.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team





From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 03:30:15 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 03:30:15 -0000
Subject: Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters
In-Reply-To: <006b01c0a5b6$9ed405a0$5674d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <981lk7+sgb7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13704


 Questions:
> 
> 1. Why is Lucius Malfoy considered by Voldemort to be a better 
servant than
> most of the other Death Eaters?
He's obviously smart and cunning.  He seems to have every 
known 'official' organisations under his control: The Minsitry, The 
school board, the court system etc.  Plus he's rich and evil.
 
> 2. Who are the Lestranges that are serving time in Azkaban?
Nothing in the canon yet but remember the Penseive?  I always thought 
the woman in the Longbottom's trial is Mrs. Lestrange and the quiet 
man behind her is Mr. Lestrange.

> 3. Will Voldemort get the dementors and the giants to follow him in 
his
> "army of creatures whom all fear"?
Definitely the Dementors; a split between the Giants.

> 4. And of course the eternal question.Why did Voldemort untie Harry 
and give
> him back his wand?
To quote Dr. Evil: 'I'm the one who's in charge here.  I deserve a 
little respect.' or THIS IS NOT BOOK 7.

How about that other eternal question i.e. the three missing DEs?  Is 
there anyone out here who is not sick of it yet?






From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar  6 03:19:56 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:19:56 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Spoilers for the JKR Schoolbooks
Message-ID: <3AA4575C.CC21A664@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13705

Hi everyone --

I warned you -- lots of ADMIN messages this evening.  :--)

The Moderator Team has decided to require spoiler warnings & spoiler
space for discussion of the schoolbooks to be released next Monday
(March 12th).  These 2 books are: Quidditch Through the Ages and
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.

For those of you unfamiliar with spoiler warnings, etc. -- here's a
brief review.  Put something like the following as your subject heading:
Quidditch book (SPOILER WARNING)

Then, after your greeting, type the following

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

This will allow anyone who inadvertently opens your message to avoid
seeing any text.

Again, this ADMIN message will be sent out daily through the end of next
week.  We are currently thinking that spoilers should stay in place
about 2 weeks from the release date of March 12th.  You will be notified
when spoilers are no longer required.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 03:42:58 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Abigail Tilden)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:42:58 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters
References: <9819kg+oi5f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006501c0a5ef$8b0066c0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13706

**newbie delurks**

Paula was correct about the Lestranges, they were convicted for using Unforgivable Curses on Frank Longbottom and his wife, along with Barty Crouch jr. and were sent to Azkaban.  When Harry "fell" into Dumbledore's pensive, he relived the memory of that trial...i'd give a better cite, but i'm at college and my copy of book four is at home in my sister's hot little hands...

and btw, can i just thank all you lovely people for encouraging my HP habit?  It's always great to find fellow Potterites over the age of 12.
ok, enough chatter...
**lurks back into her corner, and begs her laptop to continue cooperating so she can read more**

Starling
starling823 at yahoo.com

But wherever they go, and whatever happens to them on the way, 
in that enchanted place on the top of the forest, 
a little Boy and his Bear will always be playing. 
                     -Winnie the Pooh

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: paxber at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, 05 March, 2001 7:05 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters


  --- Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
  > > > 
  > > 2. Who are the Lestranges that are serving time in Azkaban?
  > 
  > I think they are the death eaters who were caught with Crouch Jr.  
  > They continued to openly act as dark wizards even after Voldie lost 
  > his power and so many death eaters crawled to the Minstry crying 
  foul.

  I agree, but I seem to recall (out of town, don't have my books 
  here :-(     ) that they were also the ones who tortured Neville's 
  parents.

  Paula, who has also been sorted into Ravenclaw (I'm going to have to 
  find a good nom, since Paula from Gryffindor was here first!)





        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 

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  _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

  From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.

  Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

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  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From purdymango1 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 03:48:06 2001
From: purdymango1 at yahoo.com (Teek)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:48:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts at Hogwarts (was: The Ghostly Potters)
In-Reply-To: <003001c0a5d6$fedc2ac0$8e2c9fac@shelley>
Message-ID: <20010306034806.14357.qmail@web4704.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13707



It was a dark and stormy night. Possibly SML wrote:
> What do the ghosts of Nearly Headless Nick, The Fat Friar,
> The Bloody Baron,
> and Myrtle have in common?  Why are they at Hogwarts?>>

and then, suddently, a shot rang out. Rina Stewart wrote:
> Well, Myrtle at least died at Hogwarts, and she spends most of her
> time where she died. Prof. Binns also died at Hogwarts and stays
> there. My guess is that the house ghosts also died there.

Hmm, anyone want to propose a reason why Nick would have been
executed at a school? Why would the Bloody Baron be so... bloody? Did
the ghoul in the Weasley's attic die there? I hope not. I'd say that
ghosts probably have some choice as to where they haunt, maybe the
places that have significance for them? 
Myrtle is the kind of person who WOULD haunt a toliet just for the
sheer misery of it - I don't know if we can take her as an example.
But perhaps the Hogwarts house ghosts had particularly fond memories
of their Hogwarts days... or particularly un-fond. I wonder what it
is that has the Fat Friar so unhappy.

--Teek, who is short on catchy sig files today.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar  6 03:22:10 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:22:10 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Logo Competition Details
Message-ID: <3AA457E2.CBCA8E62@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13708

Hi --

To further encourage you to join the HP-Announcements List, the
Moderator Team has decided to run the voting on the HPforGrownups logo
over at the new HP-Announcements list.

Details regarding where to view the entries and how to vote will be
forthcoming from Dr. Simon Branford.  We plan to get the voting underway
this week, with a view to concluding & announcing a winning logo design
by the end of the month.

Thanks for your continuing attention (I did warn you that the Moderators
had lots to tell you!) --

Penny
The Moderator Team




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar  6 03:40:43 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:40:43 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Reminders
Message-ID: <3AA45C3B.10892C1B@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13709

Hello --

It's me again.  I don't have Neil's bunny slippers or tartan dressing
gown & hairnet.  Instead, you have pregnant (read: slightly grumpy)
Moderator to contend with.

VFAQs -- Very Frequently Asked Questions -- This file is available --
please read it.  I've noticed lots & lots of questions over the last few
weeks that get posted to the main group, even though the answer is very
clearly in the VFAQs.  Here's the link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm

The Acronym/Shorthand Guide for this group may also be helpful to you if
you've not read it yet:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-shorthand.htm

SUBJECT HEADINGS -- A familiar refrain from me, but it bears repeating
over & over again apparently.  Make it your habit to look at the subject
heading (& revise accordingly) before you hit Send.  There's a thread
today that has a subject heading having to do with ear wax.  I finally
opened one of those messages out of curiosity late in the day and
discovered the message had nothing whatever to do with earwax any
longer.  I possibly missed some substantive messages.

DIGEST USERS (yes, this means *you*) -- Do not send messages with a
subject header that says "Re: Digest #___".  I'm sure I'm not the only
one who simply skips these as I have no clue what they will be about.  I
don't care how familiar I am with you or your wonderful insightful posts
-- if you use Re: Digest #___ as your subject heading, I'm not going to
read your message (this is no great loss other than I am slated to
maintain several FAQs .... so your insightful message about R/H won't
make it into the Romance FAQ if I miss it because it's buried under an
irrelevant subject heading).

NETIQUETTE & GROUP EXPECTATIONS -- If you haven't read it (or it's been
awhile), please do read the Netiquette File:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

Thanks for your attention this evening! (I know, I know ... Neil in a
hairnet is much more fun than Penny the grouchy pregnant listmom ... )

Penny
The Moderator Team




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 03:57:51 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 03:57:51 -0000
Subject: The trailer (Hagrid's line)
In-Reply-To: <97pdgj+3r7p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <981n7v+lpph@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13710

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
> I know that Hagrid never says "Harry, you're the boy who lived"; 
> however, I am not letting this bother me.  For one thing, I think 
it 
> may mean that the bit in the book where people are meeting in 
secret 
> and toasting "Harry Potter--the boy who lived!" is probably not in 
> the film (just my opinion) and they wanted to get it in the film 
> somewhere.  And for another, it wouldn't be the first time that a 
> line is in the trailer but not in the final film version.  For 
> example, when I went to see "My Best Friend's Wedding" I fully 
> expected to hear Julia Roberts utter the line, "In situations like 
> this, I try to figure out what Lucy Ricardo would do." (or 
something 
> like that, my memory is a bit fuzzy) because it was in the 
trailer.  
> But she never said it in the film.  So, we shall just have to wait 
> and see!
> 
> Trina


Oh, goodness, I've been gone, and now I had a moment to come back..Of 
course I knew that 4 days after the trailer was up would be too late 
to engage in any DIALOGUE about it...(I love this list), oh c'mon, I 
can't keep my mouth shut. 

I loved the trailer, and I got chills, then my partner and I watched 
it together and got more chills!  

I HOPE that they put in a scene in the beginning about the demise 
(okay temporary but still demise) of Lord Voldemort, the night 
McGonagall as the cat sat outside the Dursley home and Albus 
Dumbledore arrived with his putter-outer...how wonderful to see quick 
glimpses of owls flying, fireworks, men in violet cloaks, and toasts 
to Harry Potter the boy who lived. Wonderful visualization I just 
had -- thank you!

Oh, I loved it! and I knew I could come here and obsess.
Anyone up for a quick petition (we could gather 10,000 names in an 
afternoon) to say that it should be called the Philosopher's Stone 
here in the U.S.?

I did not like Harry, Ron or Hermione's hair. Hermione's should be 
MORE bushy!!!!, Ron's is too perfect, and for gosh sakes, Harry's 
should be sticking up every which way!.....

I agree that Snape is perfect...anyone notice McGonagall's broach? 
Maggie Smith is sure going to augment/bolster/round out her 
character...

Wow, Hagrid is outstanding.....He looks "normal" (or maybe he just 
looks like Hagrid to me)...but then when you see him next to Harry in 
Gringotts he looks like a giant. Excellent.

Nothing ever matches one's inward visualization..but for me this is 
so much better than (for example) the LOTR movie...it literally gave 
me chills...

The ink looked green on the letter -- did they fix it?

With renewed and mounting excitement.

Susan McGee......





From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 04:02:37 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 04:02:37 -0000
Subject: trailer music
In-Reply-To: <97pmv6+6mof@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <981ngt+432d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13711

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > Caius Marcius wrote:
> > 
> > > Okay, you can have the nickels for Beetlejuice if I can have 
the 
> ones
> > for Carmina Burana. Deal?
> > 
> > 
> We'd make a fortune - or should I say a "Fortuna"? 
> 
>  - CMC (way Orff-track)


Oh, how dreadful...when I was in Hanoi I was trapped with three
punsters....

I will never forget my Latin professor (or was it in high school) who 
played it for us again and again..I think it was he who said "Hurrah, 
hurrah, 'tis spring. The bird is on the wing. How utterly absurd..the 
wing is on the bird."  

The things one remember.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 04:13:20 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 04:13:20 -0000
Subject: London Meet up - 14th March
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEELMDEAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <981o50+5qua@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13712

> 
> A few of us are planning to get together on the evening of 
Wednesday 14th
> of March in London. We plan to partake a little bit of food and 
then to sit in a pub
> and talk about various things. You never know Harry Potter may get
> mentioned!
> 
> 

The 15th is my birthday! Hmmmmm... how many frequent flyer miles do I 
have..could I fly to London, and just arrive and have a little chat?

Susan in Michigan, U.S.A.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 04:22:13 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 04:22:13 -0000
Subject: A.P.R.M.L.A.T.F.P.O.
In-Reply-To: <3AA133B3.9964C8C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <981oll+omh4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13713

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> For all of you out there who have memorized the book, and are going
> crazy trying to place the now-infamous "Screaming Scene" from the
> trailer--I have a therapy program!
> 
> Amanda's Pre-Release Movie Letdown Avoidance Therapy for Potter
> Obsessives
> 
> 1. Become familiar with the following definitions:
>          a. "adapt" -- to make fit (as for a specific or new use) 
often
> by modification
>          b. "adaptation" -- something that is adapted: specif. a
> composition rewritten into a new form.
> 
> Repeat these definitions aloud until you can say "modification" and
> "rewritten" without choking, coughing, gagging, passing out, or 
other
> generally negative reactions.
> 
> 2. Go to the various HP sites, and follow links to various JKR,
> screenwriter, etc., interviews, and read again how they are 
encouraging
> her input, trying to remain true to her vision, etc.
> 
> 3. Realize that JKR's vision is a broad one, not necessarily 
confined to
> the specific words in the book, no matter how we might have our 
favorite
> lines.
> 
> 4. Watch the trailer again (or view the stills, for those of you 
like me
> who have computer imps who delight in confounding you), and soak up 
the
> atmosphere. Realize that in the face of most of our experience with
> movie adaptations, they seem to have accurately caught the "feel" 
of the
> world and the character of its inhabitants.
> 
> 5. Remember that the special effects are being done by some of the
> finest effects people on the planet.
> 
> 6. Remember that the cast is, unbelievably, talented enough to keep 
the
> focus on THEM and not on the special effects.
> 
> Okay, are you calmed down now? Because without a doubt there will be
> major things that have been altered. I'm certain the screaming 
scene is
> either the troll or Fluffy, and we all know they're dressed wrong. 
So
> what? Some changes must be made for an adaptation to screen. Plot
> devices are compressed, some things are left out, etc. Because the 
goal
> is a film that can translate the STORY told in the book, not the 
book
> itself.
> 
> I'm approaching the film as a version of a story I love, and I'm 
not too
> worried. I do understand that quality pieces (actors, effects, 
music,
> etc.) do not necessarily make a quality whole, but JKR's 
involvement,
> and now the trailer, seems to indicate that this is going to be 
really
> good.
> 
> Hope I helped!
> 
> --Dr. Amanda


Oh, my goodness, Dr., you have helped! I am trying to explain to my 
son (now aged 3.5) about different versions of stories. He has no 
problem with the different versions of Robin Hood (he's seen at least 
four), Zorro (at least six)...he's figured out that Zorro is Don 
Diego, and the Scarlet Pimpernel (4 or 5 versions?)....He has a hard 
time distinguishing who is Robin Hood and who is Errol Flynn..but 
what he is REALLY struggling with is that he's seen the videotape of 
the Hobbit, and the audio tape doesn't sound the same (the audiotapes 
of Star Wars are close enough to the movies)...anyway...this is a 
long pompous way of saying that thinking of the movie as a VERSION
of the story is very helpful to me...

Various versions of all of the above are tolerated pretty well. I can 
tell you who I would like to play the various parts in the various 
versions of the Scarlet Pimpernel...who is the best Chauvelin, who is 
the best Marguerite St. Just, who is the best Robespierre....

OT (those youngsters who think some of us are too old for this 
stuff), let me remind you that the Swamp Fox (Colonel later General 
Francis Marion) took to the swamps to wage guerilla warfare against 
the British at age 44. He left the swamps at 50 to live in the newly 
independent United States of America. (hee, hee.....Snape is NOT some 
old guy, okay? Albus Dumbledore is rather elderly, perhaps)

While I was gone, things were changed. Should I take this post to OT 
chat? Even though I'm thanking Amanda for her therapy about the HP 
movie?

I really want to follow the rules.

Susan




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Tue Mar  6 04:28:28 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 23:28:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts at Hogwarts (was: The Ghostly Potters)
In-Reply-To: <20010306034806.14357.qmail@web4704.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103052307550.15260-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13714

On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Teek wrote:

> Did the ghoul in the Weasley's attic die there? I hope not. 

Aren't ghouls different from ghosts, though?  (I thought ghouls were
properly a type of evil spirit that feeds on dead bodies, though I think
JRK's using it in a more general sense, as in the prayer, "From ghoulies
and ghosties, and long-leggedy beasties, and things that go bump in the
night, good Lord, deliver us!")  If it were just a ghost like all the
others, wouldn't JKR have given it a name?

> I'd say that ghosts probably have some choice as to where they
> haunt, maybe the places that have significance for them?

I doubt they have conscious choice over where to haunt, but it would
probably be the place most significant to them, which might or might not
be the place they died.  And some of them, at least, can move around and
go visiting, as they do for the Deathday party -- and isn't the Headless
Hunt a sort of roaming band of ghosts who aren't tied to a particular
place?

Is the idea of the Headless Hunt based on the folkloric tradition of the
Wild Hunt?  I assumed that it was...

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.





From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 04:38:11 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 04:38:11 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Reminders/congratulations to the moderators
In-Reply-To: <3AA45C3B.10892C1B@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <981pjj+q96m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13715

Congratulations to Penny, and to the moderator team for the most 
frequently asked questions and all the other work they've done
to make it more clear and easier for all of us to happily obsess.

I really appreciate their work.

Susan McGee




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 04:40:40 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 04:40:40 -0000
Subject: The temptation of Dark Arts
Message-ID: <981po8+7bbt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13716

Now, I know JKR said that there is no way on God's green earth that 
Harry is going over the Dark side but I just want to throw this into 
the ring and see what you guys think of it:


Chapter 18: The Weighing of the Wands pg. 263 - 264 (U.K. edition)
This is after Snape's infamous 'I see no difference' remark.

Harry sat there staring at Snape as the lesson began, picturing 
horrific things happening to him ... if only he knew how to do the 
Cruciatus curse .. he'd have Snape flat on his back like that spider, 
jerking and twitching ...



Personally, I think this passage shows two very important messages:

1. Harry, although noble and courageous, can harbour rather dark 
thoughts.  It's only his self-control (or limited knowledge?) that 
stops him from acting on them.  THe complexity of Harry's character 
is much understated.  He's definitely not the one dimensional young 
hero.
2. The Temptation of Dark Arts.  It also shows that Dark Art can be 
very tempting for all wizards and witches.  Not just the power-hungry,
cunning Slytherins.  I can imagine Ravenclaw getting into Dark Art 
out of curiosity; Hufflepuff and Gryffindor into Dark Art out of 
loyalty and desire to right wrongs.(i.e. Crouch's authorisation for 
the use of unforgivable curses.)
If even someone with Harry's moral would be tempted, who knows what
someone of lesser moral would do if they are presented with the 
opportunity?






From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Tue Mar  6 04:53:33 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 00:53:33 -0400
Subject: another fun question  -  earwax? hmmm...
Message-ID: <3AA46D4C.B0E32205@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 13717

> Naama said:
> So, I thought I'd put it as a question for you guys here - what do 
> you find most imaginative, funny or otherwise exhilirating in HP?>>

(1) Moving pictures! Too cool!

(2) The Gringotts transport system. I'm prone to motion sickness and I'm
sure I'd barf at least twice - but I'd still like to go for a ride.

(3) The Quidditch World Cup. Particularly Ireland's mascots spelling out
messages.

Angela

-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
    "There is in the worst of fortune the best of chances 
        for a happy change."    Euripedes



From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar  6 04:37:25 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:37:25 -0600
Subject: Ron/Hermione from the viewpoint of a 14 yr. old
References: <983838442.2222.60676.l9@yahoogroups.com> <000e01c0a5dc$c2d067c0$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <3AA46985.F1060E3E@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13718

Hi --

Rebecca Boswell wrote:

> <delurks>
>
> And plus, why would Ron tear apart his little Krum "action figure"
> (arm found under bed...forgot which chapter...)if he wasn't jealous?
> Fraternizing with the "enemy" couldn't have been why Ron was angry,
> because he got Krum's autograph in the end. There are lots
> of other facts that point to a Ron/Hermione romance, and I think it's
> coming up in canon.

Jenny added:

> You are 14?  I wish you were one of my students!  Anyway, you
> explained exactly what I think about the R/H ship.  I think it's
> really that simple (not that I'm criticizing all the psychoanalyzing
> :-) ).  Ron is just too awkward and silly to realize that his
> disappointment in Hermione going with someone else was because he
> wanted to ask her but didn't have the nerve!
>

Sigh.  No one (well, except maybe Star) disputes that Ron likes
Hermione.  No one said that "consorting with the enemy" was why Ron was
angry.  I think that's what he *said* to Hermione (masking his true
feelings because he doesn't recognize them yet).  And, I think that's
what she was responding to in anger.

Where I (and many H/H types) disagree is with the notion that Hermione
likes Ron back in a romantic way.

Bbennett said:

> I do agree that the words that prompted her remark weren't
> personal, but I think she was aware that the feelings behind
> them were.  Ron spent the days leading up to the ball repeatedly
> questioning her on whom she was going with; he also blew the
> issue of her appearing at the ball with Viktor ridiculously out of
> proportion, then spent the better part of the evening sulking.
> Compare this with Harry, who didn't pester her about her date
> and wasn't horrible to her at the ball. I think it's quite possible
> that by the end of the evening she was aware Viktor wasn't the
> real issue, and that her final words were not just about him
> running the Viktor thing into the ground, but in being too chicken
> to say what the problem really was. That's the way I interpreted it.
>
I think you're correct that she was aware of Ron's feelings by the end
of the evening.  But, IMO, that still doesn't mean that she returns his
feelings or that her remark was in fact inviting him to ask her to the
next Ball (or hoping that he would).  I think they were having a huge
fight, and her temper flared up because of the context (Ron's earlier
remarks about not being stuck with "trolls" as dates, etc.).  Just my
two galleons of course --

Penny



>
>
> Becca, who really needs to get a life.
>
> <trudges back into lurk-dom>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 04:55:06 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 04:55:06 -0000
Subject: Slytherin and Death eaters
Message-ID: <981qja+89tq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13719

This is kind of a spin-off to my other post.

I am kind of perplexed by the link between the Slytherin House and 
the Death Eaters.  Is Slytherin House an in-house-training-camp for 
future Death Eaters?  Can you imagine what the graduation ceremony 
would be like:

Rosier: let's join the dark Lord.
Wilkens: And torture some Muggles.
The Lestranges: And don't forget the Mudblood.

It would be strange if the entire year of Slytherins all become Death 
Eaters. (which seems to be the case with Snape's year, as Sirius has 
implied)  That, seriously, would make one doubt the value of a 
Hogwarts education.  I can understand how two or three may become DE 
but the 'entire gang'?  Even if we take the 'bad seeds' approach 
(i.e. all Slytherins are destined to become Dark Witches and Wizards, 
which even a 12 year-old can't believe.), it's just extreme to think 
that DE=Slytherin.  (I look forward to a non-Slytherin DE, someone 
other than that pathetic rat, Wormtail, who show us, so far, no trait 
of a Gryffindor.)

And while we are on the topic of nature vs nurture vs free will 
again, one of the argument against the Harry as Gryffindor heir 
theory is precisely this: it mires the CoS theme of freewill and 
choice.  If Harry is indeed the Gryffindor's heir and destined to 
defeat the dark lord, then Dumbledore's 'free choice' seems void.





From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Mar  6 06:17:52 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 01:17:52 -0500
Subject: SHIP: Ron, Hermione, the Yule Ball, and Mrs. Weasley
Message-ID: <200103060641.f266fk613958@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 13721

Ahoy there!  Ah, the choppy waters in these parts tell me another shipping 
debate lies in our path!  The Captain of the Good Ship R/H steps forward to 
take her watch, allowing the beleaguered First Mate, who has held the wheel 
for several hours straight, to take some much-deserved rest.

Penny wrote:
>Continue to read R/H shippers. Believe it or not, I'm largely on your
>side on this one. <g>

Isn't that one of the seven signs of the Apocalypse? <g>
(OK, I just read through Penny's message again and realized that she agreed 
with me three times in a row!  I *know* that's one of the signs!...OK,OK, I'm 
getting back on topic, I promise...)

Penny:
>He was astonished that she
>was going with someone else, but I think this is more to do with his
>perception that she was just "good old Hermione" who wasn't really a
>"girl" in his mind until it was becoming clear that he was going to >have 
trouble getting a date at the 11th hour.

And, I would point out, the fact that he realizes she's a girl doesn't mean 
he's anywhere near admitting that he has feelings for her.

Penny:
>What would Ron have thought if Hermione had gone with Harry?

An interesting question (I snipped your whole scenario here, but I agree it's 
plausible.)  However, to me, one of the reasons H/H doesn't ring true is 
precisely because Ron *doesn't* seem terribly bothered by the insinuations 
that Hermione is Harry's girlfriend.  If there were subtext, I would think he 
would at least show some resentment.  (And don't tell me he wouldn't pick up 
on it--he may be a dolt who doesn't know his own feelings yet, but he knows 
enough to get jealous.)

Penny:
>One point I'll make at this stage is that it is interesting that Ron
>does *not* specifically ask her to ball. He at first says, "Well, you
>can come with one of us."

This didn't surprise me a bit.  He hasn't admitted to himself how he feels, so 
it doesn;t surprise me that he wouldn't put himself out there by asking her.  
I'm with B.--I think he probably did (consciously or subconsciously) wait 
until the last minute, assuming he'd go with Hermione one way or another.  
That still means he took her for granted, of course.


Penny:
>Okay R/H types: if Ron *did* say something personal ("why didn't you
>go to the Ball with me rather than Krum?"), why in the world would he> >think 
she'd missed the point? Why would he look thunderstruck?

*blinks and looks around at shipmates*  Did any of us say we thought that was 
the case? If so, I don't remember it.  In fact, I absolutely agree that Ron 
wouldn't have said anything personal--he's still too out of touch with his own 
feelings at this point.  On the contrary, I think it would be *Hermione* who 
would bring it up, if anything personal was said.  Something along the lines 
of "I know what's *really* bothering you!"


Penny:
>For once the R/H shippers shouldn't be too up & arms about one of my
>shipping posts --

Oh, Penny, my dear.  You underestimate us. ;)

Paula:
>All that said, I do agree that being in the thick of what the
>characters are experiencing has to give you a bit of a different
>viewpoint. In fact, I think that's one of the tests of good writing,
>that it can stand up to a multiplicity of views, and mean something a
>little different to each reader.

Hear, hear!  It consistently amazes me, the number of different 
interpretations can be placed on the same words.

First Mate Mo wrote:
>As for JKR's statement, IMO the only thing you could call ambiguous is
>her use of the word "something." But is there really any question as
>>to what she means? I think that her use of the word "between" means
>>just that - between Ron and Hermione. It involves *both* parties. I
>>interpret her statement to mean that Hermione knows but Ron is a
>>>>>>clueless boy. :)

Exactly.  This is how I interpret it as well.  Penny has a point about JKR's 
statements sometimes being misleading, but I still heartily doubt that is the 
case here.


Mo again:
>Yes, Harry is acknowledging that Ron likes Hermione, but I feel that
>>he is also saying that Hermione likes Ron. Why? Well let's look at
>>>Hermione's statement from the row:

This was pretty clear to me too.  But then, one of the things I love about 
JKR's style is that things, especially emotional things, are rarely laid out.  
She shows rather than tells.  So it's up to the reader to interpret what's 
going on.Despite the over-the-top nature of much of what she writes about, 
JKR's style is fairly understated.


Mo again:
>I guess I really don't think that Hermione's feelings are some big
>>>>mystery. She may not be as transparent as Ron and the hints may be
>a bit more subtle but I feel that they are there. Especially after
>>>>that statement during the infamous Yule fight. :)

Surprise, surprise...I agree.  Hermione's not as much of an open book as Ron 
is.  (Remember, it's Harry's POV and he's absolutely mystified by girls in 
general anyway!)  But I maintain that her jealous looks cannot be explained 
away as easily as some H/H-ers would like.  And don't even get me started on 
that semicolon thing again! :)


Mo:
>BTW, if anyone is interested in seeing some *R/H-Type* interpretations
>on the Yule Ball fight I suggest a trip to Sugar Quill Island
>>>>>>>>>(www.sugarquill.com) Arabella and Elanor Gamgee (AKA Cap'n
>>>>Kathy) each have stories that contain the scene as well as my own
>"Yule Brawl"

Thanks for the plug, Mo!


Penny:
>  The "nonsense" that I was referring to is the argument that JKR's statement
>is irrefutably saying that there will be a canon romance between Ron &
>Hermione. :--)

Of course, it would equally be nonsense to say that said statement  
irrefutably *doesn't* mean that.

Penny:
>Well, she and Harry weren't having an argument though, were they? I
>agree with Simon's points. Ron is the one who made the big deal about
>her ball date and it possibly being a disloyal act. She was having a
>fight with Ron. Of course, she wouldn't direct that sort of line at
>Harry. He made a point of saying that he didn't mind that she went with
>Krum.

Hmmm, it doesn't seem to me she cares much *what* Harry thinks.  Funny how 
Ron's opinion seems to matter to her though...

And about Mrs. Weasley...

Cassie said:
>It seems pretty clear that the reason that Mrs. Weasley was cold to
>Hermione was that she had read the Rita Skeeter article claiming that
>Hermione had broken Harry's heart.

I agree with this.  I never liked the idea that Mrs. Weasley's giving Hermione 
the cold shoulder had anything to do with Ron.  Mrs. Weasley clearly dotes on 
Harry (sometimes more so than her own children).  Actually, I find it a bit 
troubling at times, the way she underestimates Ron and coddles Harry.  I don't 
think she's noticed Ron's feelings on the matter one way or another.

Ebony:
>Is she that horrible a judge of character? Valuing Rita Skeeter's
>word--a woman who gave her husband, Dumbledore, and Hagrid hell--
>people Molly Weasley should respect if only by association--over
>everything she knows about the type of girl Hermione is?

Well, she did swoon over Gilderoy Lockhart too...what does that tell us?



Captain Kathy of the Good Ship R/H
off to de-gnome the Lido Deck
while her alter ego, Elanor Gamgee, merrily slides down the giant water slide
(oh, I'm going to be paying for this late night when I get up in 5 hours!)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 08:16:13 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 08:16:13 -0000
Subject: SS's cruelty-SB's sanity-Mundungus-Ghostly Potters
Message-ID: <9826cd+p6vm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13722

Rebecca wrote:

>The stakes for which Snape is playing are so high, I think, that he's
>prepared to be ruthless in smaller matters, to make sure his 
reputation as
>an evil git is airtight. 

Wow, you've convinced me.  I'd still put my money on most of Snape's 
nastiness being the genuine article, but I can accept that it could be 
an act.   

I wrote re: the Dementors:

> they also force you to relive terrible memories.  JKR has a scarily
> sharp imagination; this latter is one of the worst tortures I can
> imagine.

Monika wrote:

>Yes, but she hasn't exactly invented this: PTSD does the same thing
>in flashbacks and nightmares.

Oh yeah.  And I don't suffer from PTSD, but I still know the feeling 
enough to know it's torture.  We all have those memories that we'd 
like to put into a Pensieve (and never look at again).

Monika wrote:

>He had lost
>this immunity when the Dementors encircled him near the lake at
>Hogwarts at the end of PoA, remember that he was affected in the
>same way as Harry was, he lost consciousness. This isn't surprising,
>because for the first time in 13 years he had new hope. He thought
>that his name would probably be cleared soon and that he could start
>a normal life with Harry.

This is a really fascinating idea.  Next time I read PoA, I'll be 
thinking about this!  

I wrote:

>he is so tortured by
> guilt about their deaths.  This is one thing the Dementors seemed to
> be able to inflict on him that he found impossible to shake.

Monika wrote:

>I have to disagree another time. I don't believe that the Dementors
>inflicted the guilt on him

You are right, of course--I didn't mean they inflicted the original 
guilt, but that it was the piece of his own past (amplified by the 
Dementors) that he found hardest to cope with.

Kimberly, I love your take on Mundungus.  That is exactly the way I 
thought of him, though I hadn't pictured Jack Klugman (that really 
works, though!  How about Leo McKern for a British equivalent?).

Joywitch recalled JKR saying:

>(1) Happy people do not become ghosts; and
>  (2) James and Lily ARE not ghosts.

I recall (and Doreen supplied the quote for) #1, but not #2.  Now, it 
seems J&L were happy, but then they also died tragically and with a 
lot of unfinished business (namely, a baby son).  That would qualify 
as unhappiness, I'd say.

Milz wrote:

>Even the photo album Hagrid gave him in SS/PS, Harry didn't
>pick it up again until PoA.

I don't think this is the case.  Like SML, I wonder about Harry's lack 
of curiosity about his parents, but I don't think it extends as far as 
not looking at their photos.  We just don't see him do it more than a 
couple of times.  IIRC, when we do see him look at them in PoA (b/c 
he's looking for a picture of Sirius), it says something like "he'd 
never noticed him before," which implies that he's looked at the 
pictures many times.

Amy Z
still too keyed up from writing Lord V's unauthorized biography to 
sleep, and hey, we'll be snowed in tomorrow anyway

------------------------------------------------------------------
"Blimey," said the other twin.  "Are you--?"
"He *is*," said the first twin.  "Aren't you?" he added to Harry.
"What?" said Harry.
"*Harry Potter*," chorused the twins.
"Oh, him," said Harry.  "I mean, yes, I am."
                                 --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
-------------------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 08:20:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 08:20:53 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
Message-ID: <9826l5+gk8d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13723

Lord Voldemort (born Tom Marvolo Riddle)
   AKA He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named
       You-Know-Who
       The Dark Lord (mostly by followers)
       Master (by followers)
       Voldy (by his nearest and dearest...well, actually, just by us)

   Harry, Dumbledore, Sirius, and Remus (Those Unafraid to Speak the 
Name) generally omit the "Lord" too.  I mean, come on.  Exactly what 
peerage *is* he a lord in?
   According to his Creator, the "t" is silent.

Physical Characteristics:

   In youth: tall, dark-haired, pale-skinned, handsome.
   Between defeat (Halloween, 1981) and full re-embodiment (June 24, 
1995): first a disembodied "less than spirit" (GF 33).  When he used 
Quirrell's body (1992), had a flat face like a snake's, catlike eyes 
that glow red, slits for nostrils.
   In proto-human form (1994-95): as above, except like a child with 
thin arms and legs; also, hairless, with reddish-black, scaly skin
   Post-return to power: extremely pale (13 years out of the sun, 
don't you know); long fingers; tall and skeletally thin.  Features the 
same as in 1993.
   At any age, has a high, cold laugh.

Biography:

   Most of the following information comes from Voldemort himself, and 
as such should be taken with several grains of salt, though we have no 
particular reason to doubt it (apart from his general 
untrustworthiness).
   Born c. 1927.  His father, a wealthy Little Hangleton Muggle not 
much liked by his townsfolk (he was "rich, snobbish, and rude," GF 1), 
abandoned his mother (also from Little Hangleton), who was pregnant at 
the time, when she told him she was a witch.  It is not clear whether 
they were ever married.  She died giving birth, but not before naming 
her son Tom Riddle after his father, with the middle name Marvolo 
after his maternal grandfather (which might have been his first or 
last name).  Now *why* do some women name their sons after the scum 
who got them pregnant and split?  Fortunately, I don't have to answer 
that, because this is a profile of Voldemort, not his mother.
   He was raised in a Muggle orphanage and attended Hogwarts with 
great success (including becoming head boy), where he began calling 
himself Lord Voldemort among his friends (how egotistical is that?).  
During his 5th year he succeeded in opening the Chamber of Secrets.  
However, when Myrtle was killed by the basilisk, the school was in 
such turmoil that he feared having to return to the Muggle orphanage; 
he sealed it, framed Hagrid (then in his third year), and received an 
Award for Service to the School for his heroism to boot.  Before 
leaving Hogwarts, he created an enchanted diary to give himself 
another shot at opening the Chamber at some future date, and got it in 
1992-93 by enchanting Ginny Weasley, but his diary-self overreached, 
tried to kill Harry, and was destroyed.
   On a summer day c. 1944, he murdered his father and paternal 
grandparents in their Little Hangleton home, presumably with Avada 
Kedavra, by the description of their bodies (GF 1).
   The missing years . . . He reappeared at an unknown date as 
Voldemort, whom few people know is the same person as Tom Riddle.  His 
reign of terror began c. 1970; was marked by mass murders of magical 
and Muggle folk, alliances with the giants, and chaos in the MOM; and 
ended in 1981 with his unsuccessful attempt to kill Harry.
   He fled in disembodied form to the Albanian forest, where he 
inhabited small animals but could perform no other magic; took over 
Quirrell in 1991, came to Hogwarts, and regained strength through 
drinking unicorn blood; hoped to steal the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's 
Stone, but was foiled by (notice a pattern?) Harry Potter, whom, he 
discovered, he could not touch without harming himself.  Four years 
later, thanks to Wormtail, was able to gain proto-human form and 
return to the UK...for the rest, see Chapter 32 and 33 summaries 
(Messages #13116 and #13653).  He can now touch Harry without causing 
himself pain.

Bad qualities

   You name `em, he's got `em.  Power-mad, multiple-murdering, racist 
(vs. Muggles and their descendants), sadistic, sarcastic, vengeful, 
unforgiving, arrogant, manipulative, megalomaniacal, duplicitous; a 
hater of Hitlerian proportions.  He even smells bad (PS/SS 17).  

Good qualities:

   Umm...

Other notable characteristics:

   Speaks Parseltongue and has an affinity for snakes
   Extremely intelligent, charming, and one of the most talented 
students Hogwarts has ever had; capable of advanced magic while still 
in school, despite Muggle upbringing
   Has "powers [Dumbledore] will never have" (PS/SS 1); according to 
McGonagall, however, this refers only to his willingness to practice 
the Dark Arts, not actual ability
   Is the Heir of Slytherin (last descendant, or is it ancestor . . . 
so far)
   According to popular belief, is afraid of Dumbledore, and only 
Dumbledore (although you have to wonder whether Harry has been added 
to the roster now that he's bested him three times)
   Possibly immortal
   Has a knack for inventing anagrams
   His wand (yew, 13.5 inches) has the same core as Harry's, a feather 
from Fawkes
   Has some kind of magical link to Harry, via the scar and perhaps in 
other ways (e.g., Harry can sometimes witness what he's doing through 
"dreams").

Questions:

1. What is Voldemort's primary motivation?  To live forever?  To rid 
the world of the non-pureblood (I know, he doesn't qualify 
himself--racism knows no logic)?  Sheer lust for power?

2. Can he be killed?  Hagrid surmises that by the time he killed the 
Potters, he was no longer human enough to die (PS/SS 4); Dumbledore 
says "not being truly alive, he cannot be killed" (PS/SS 17); 
Voldemort himself surmises that his experiments in immortality were 
successful enough for him to survive a deflected AK, albeit barely.  
However, Voldemort also describes his new (post-1995) life as a mortal 
one, not yet the immortality he's seeking (GF 33).

3. How will having been restored by Harry's blood affect him?

4. Does he have an heir, and does he want one?  (I hate to ask this, 
but it seems obligatory:) Is he going to prove to be related to anyone 
we know?

5. Is he your typical Evil Overlord who repeatedly makes unbelievably 
dumb mistakes, or are we underestimating him?

Amy Z





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Tue Mar  6 11:48:29 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (monika at darwin.inka.de)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:48:29 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <9826l5+gk8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <982iqd+n77q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13724

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> 1. What is Voldemort's primary motivation?  To live forever?  To 
rid 
> the world of the non-pureblood (I know, he doesn't qualify 
> himself--racism knows no logic)?  Sheer lust for power?

I'd say a bit of all of the above. He wanted the philosopher's stone
to overcome his mortality, which would have given him enough time
to achieve his other goals. He wanted to rid the world of the
non-purblood and opened the chamber of secrets for the first time
(I suppose) after Salazar Slytherin. It doesn't matter that his
father was a Muggle, remember that Hitler didn't exactly look like
the type of human being he favored, that is tall, blonde and fair-
skinned. Lust for power plays a predominant role, too. He likes to
hear himself speaking to his inferiors (or followers) as we have
seen in GoF.

> 2. Can he be killed

I think he can be killed now that he has Harry's blood in him. I
believe that it would have been at least very hard to kill him when
he still was that ghostly being - how do you kill someone who is a
mere shadow? Maybe it could have been done with powerful magic, but
then, why didn't Dumbledore ever try to finish him off before he
regained a new body?


> 3. How will having been restored by Harry's blood affect him?

As I said above, I believe this is the first step leading to his
second (and final) downfall.

> 
> 4. Does he have an heir, and does he want one?  (I hate to ask 
this, 
> but it seems obligatory:) Is he going to prove to be related to 
anyone 
> we know?

Since I am not a Star Wars fan, I would be *very* disappointed if
he would prove to be related to anyone of the good guys. JKR has a
thing for dark-haired men, and the superficial physical resemblance
between the young Riddle and Harry doesn't prove anything to me.
 
> 5. Is he your typical Evil Overlord who repeatedly makes 
unbelievably 
> dumb mistakes, or are we underestimating him?

Hm, difficult question. As I see quite a few parallels between him
and Hitler, I believe that he will finally be so convinced of his
own infallibility that he will commit a dumb mistake that will give
Harry the chance to finish him off.

Monika






From paxber at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 14:55:48 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:55:48 -0000
Subject: more on wizard ages
In-Reply-To: <9826l5+gk8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <982tpk+nnb1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13725

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Lord Voldemort (born Tom Marvolo Riddle)
>    Born c. 1927.  

Now this is interesting. Remember Hagrid was at school with V. -- he 
might be a couple of years younger but not more than that. So Hagrid 
is roughly 60 at the time of the books. For some reason, he strikes 
me as a good bit younger than McGonagall, but apparently he's not (10 
years = 5 wizard years). Is it just the different personalities?

If they were Muggles, I'd have envisioned Hagrid as maybe 35-40, but 
McGonagall as 50+.

Paula2




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 15:03:11 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:03:11 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <981e0d+oio8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <982u7f+m8mv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13726

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I disagree.  I don't think she was punishing Hermione. From Mrs. 
> Weasley's 
> > point of view, if the article was correct, then *two* of her 
> children stood a 
> > chance of being hurt.  I think she was just reacting like a mother 
> would.  
> > 
> ____
> 
> Sorry. I'm with Ebony, I don't buy that at all. She WAS punishing 
> Hermione, for goodness sake she pointedly gave the girl a 
substandard 
> present, and glared at her, and was cold to her, and so on. I just 
> think she was punishing her for a percieved maltreatment of Harry, 
> and not for any other reason. Like I've said before, Mrs. Weasley 
> loves Harry, is protective of him, and doubtless thinks that with 
all 
> the loss in his life, it would be a sad thing indeed if his first 
> girlfriend stomped all over his heart with hobnailed boots. 
> 
> This in no way supports any particular ship, either, IMHO. I simply 
> happen to believe that Mrs. Weasley cares about Harry, is protective 
> of him, that this speaks very well of her and her family, and that 
> she is not the type of person to go around being nasty to teenage 
> girls over things they cannot help. We all already agree that Ron 
> likes Hermione anyway. That theory needs no extraneous support.
> 
> Cassandra,

I agree with you completely here.  I love Molly to death - she's a 
loving mother and a fierce protector, but in this instance, I think 
she was protecting Harry, not Ron or Ginny.  In Molly's case, she 
tends sometimes to be affected by star power *coughLockhartcough*.  I 
think she just read the article, made the mistake of taking Skeeter at 
her word, and reacted out of her protective feelings for Harry.  She 
was very cold to Hermione, and I think that it reveals clearly that 
Molly doesn't have the same familial feelings for Hermione that she 
does for Harry, which I think is more hurtful to Hermione than her 
believing Skeeter's drivel, as many people have been taken in by 
Skeeter in the past.  I'm guessing, though, that Hermione is going to 
become more a part of her life, and hopefully eventually she will come 
to love and accept Hermione as much as she does Harry.  

kimberly




From uibristol at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 15:30:33 2001
From: uibristol at yahoo.com (uibristol at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:30:33 -0000
Subject: Harry's curiosity/ambiguity
In-Reply-To: <41200132632916330@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <982vqp+oqma@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13727

I think Harry does have an innate curiousity, but generally is trying 
to get by.  JKR said somewhere (I'm sorry I can't remember where) 
that Harry was just trying to get by.  His general attitude still 
seems that he was thrown in and is still learning to swim.  At least, 
that's the form the first three books took.  Book four really was a 
keystone, and I think in a way Harry's starting to turn the corner to 
curiosity.  He has now confronted his fame, and seen consequences of 
his actions on others.  I think we will see more curiosoity in V.

Finishing the JKR quote, she also said something along the lines of 
Hermione covered for her inadequacies through studying, and Ron's 
attitude was much like Harry's--instead of intimidated by his fate, 
by his brothers' accomplishments.  A small little group of misfits?




From luv697 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 16:04:31 2001
From: luv697 at yahoo.com (luv697 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 16:04:31 -0000
Subject: Mistakes?
Message-ID: <9831qf+9d73@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13728

Hello

I am new to this club, and glad to have found it.

It would take me forever to go through all the post, but I wanted to 
know if anyone one else had spotted the same mistakes as I have. 
Other then the mistake about Harry's parents comeing out of the wand 
in the wrong order, I also noticed that Harry's mother is reffered to 
as a muggle. If I remember correctly, it was in the first book that 
his mother is said to be a witch that attended Hogwarts.
Also, if Harry started Hogwarts at age 11, his birthday being in 
July, then how is it that in his 4th year he is only 13?

Forgive me if these mistakes have already been covered in previous 
posts.


LOVE





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 16:35:00 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 16:35:00 -0000
Subject: more on wizard ages
In-Reply-To: <982tpk+nnb1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9833jk+5s0a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13729

paxber wrote:

> > Lord Voldemort (born Tom Marvolo Riddle)
> >    Born c. 1927.  
> 
> Now this is interesting. Remember Hagrid was at school with V. -- he 
> might be a couple of years younger but not more than that. So Hagrid 
> is roughly 60 at the time of the books. For some reason, he strikes 
> me as a good bit younger than McGonagall, but apparently he's not 
(10 
> years = 5 wizard years). Is it just the different personalities?
> 
> If they were Muggles, I'd have envisioned Hagrid as maybe 35-40, but 
> McGonagall as 50+.

That's about what I picture too, or maybe MM 55, RH 45.  I think you 
have to think of it like dog years.  People say a dog year = 7 human 
years, but the years aren't distributed the same way; dogs reach 
maturity much faster than humans (otherwise a dog wouldn't be 
full-grown 'til age 3) and spend more time in "middle age."  The same 
with wizards.  We don't know how old James and Lily were when they had 
Harry, but we know they weren't 50, nor do wizards seem to mature more 
slowly than Muggles (though with all the comments lately about Ron's 
arrested development, one might wonder--can we lay off him?  How many 
12-year-olds do you know who would calmly allow themselves to be 
attacked by giant stone creatures in order to help Save the World?).  

See the Lexicon for the full timeline stuff, but briefly, I got V's 
year of birth this way:

-CoS takes place 1992-93 (proof: Nick's deathday cake)
-Chamber of Secrets first opened about 50 years earlier, when Riddle 
age 16/5th year student: c. 1943
-Subtract 16: c. 1927.

And yes, we know that Hagrid was a 3rd-year when he was expelled, so 
he is 2 years younger than Voldemort, give or take a year.  Sure wears 
his years better than V, don't he?

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
  "Do you mean to tell me," he growled at the Dursleys, "that
this boy--this boy!--knows nothin' abou'--about ANYTHING?" 
  Harry thought this was going a bit far. 
                               -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 16:52:12 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 16:52:12 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <9826l5+gk8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9834js+81b4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13730

Excellent, excellent character summary, Amy.  Voldy is a tough one to 
summarize...I am impressed.  Of course, this wouldnt be HP4Gups 
without a few nits to pick:

> Lord Voldemort (born Tom Marvolo Riddle)
[snip]
> I mean, come on.  Exactly what 
> peerage *is* he a lord in?

Good question.  The Universal Peerage of Evil Entities, or the Evil 
Overlords Association.  Or maybe the more anagramically-correct Evil 
Vile Insidious League.  One thing that is striking about Voldy is his 
adolescentness.  His title is simply an anagram of his real name, 
created while still a student -- it has a boyish cleverness.  And 
calling himself Lord also seems very adolescent.  I think that kids 
often give themselves royal titles to make themselves feel bigger.  
It seems as childish as those one of those stupid ''Kentucky 
Colonels'', like calling yourself Colonel Sanders or something.  And 
the only time we really get to know him very well is when he appears 
as his adolescent self out of the diary.  Maybe this is true of all 
Evil Overlord-types, but Voldy does seem awfully adolescent.

> Now *why* do some women name their sons after the scum 
> who got them pregnant and split?

Depressing, isnt it?

> The missing years . . . He reappeared at an unknown date as 
> Voldemort, whom few people know is the same person as Tom Riddle.  
His 
> reign of terror began c. 1970; was marked by mass murders of 
magical 
> and Muggle folk, alliances with the giants, and chaos in the MOM; 
and 
> ended in 1981 with his unsuccessful attempt to kill Harry.

But what did he really do?  It is still unclear to me.  OK, he 
murdered a bunch of people, but is that enough to get an Evil 
Overlord rating?  I thought you had to be more than just Jack the 
Ripper or Son of Sam to be an Evil Overlord.  What did Voldy do that 
rates him higher than just a garden-variety serial killer?

Also, I dont remember Voldy having an alliance with giants.  Did I 
miss something? (Likely, but if anyone could point me to the 
appropriate chapter and verse I will reread.)
> 
> Bad qualities
> 
>    You name `em, he's got `em.  Power-mad, multiple-murdering, 
racist 
> (vs. Muggles and their descendants), sadistic, sarcastic, vengeful, 
> unforgiving, arrogant, manipulative, megalomaniacal, duplicitous; a 
> hater of Hitlerian proportions.  He even smells bad (PS/SS 17).  
> 
Sarcastic?  SARCASTIC?  What is wrong with being sarcastic?  Are you 
trying to tell me something?

> Good qualities:
> 
>    Umm...
> 
He looks sort of like Harry, or did when he was younger.  And he is 
smart.  And Ollivander points out that he did great things...evil, 
yes, but great.  OK, pretty minimal in the good qualities department.

> 
> 1. What is Voldemort's primary motivation?  To live forever?  To 
rid 
> the world of the non-pureblood (I know, he doesn't qualify 
> himself--racism knows no logic)?  Sheer lust for power?
> 

It seems to me that there are two possibilities:
(1) Voldy will turn out to be your standard evil guy, just out to do 
evil for the hell of it -- essentially a plot device so that the hero 
has someone to best.
(2) Voldy will turn out to have some Hitlerian Evil Plan to rule the 
world, live forever, kill all the non-pure types, market his own 
brand of hair-care produces, take over Hogwarts, etc.

> 2. Can he be killed?
> 3. How will having been restored by Harry's blood affect him?

This questions, IMHO, are intimately related.  I am of the school of 
thought that says that having Harry's blood makes him mortal enough 
to be killed, and that is such good news that it made Dumbledore's 
eye gleam. 

> 4. Does he have an heir, and does he want one?

Draco Malfoy seems to be doing a pretty good job, so far.

> 5. Is he your typical Evil Overlord who repeatedly makes 
unbelievably 
> dumb mistakes, or are we underestimating him?
> 

We are underestimating him.  He will eventually defeat Harry Potter, 
Dumbledore, and the other forces of good and take over the world.  In 
fact, the HP books are documents of his rise to power.   JKR has been 
ordered to write them in order to prepare us to bow down and serve 
him.  However, the resistance survives. If you want to join, meet in 
Joywitch's  cave  in the woods over near the.......NO, NO, 
STOP....AARRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

******green flash of light*******




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Tue Mar  6 17:01:19 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:01:19 -0500 
Subject: Ch. 33 and Voldemort sketch: DE questions
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0735@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13731

 
Carole's discussion Questions:
> 
> 1. Why is Lucius Malfoy considered by Voldemort to be a 
> better servant than
> most of the other Death Eaters?

Besides echoing what has already been said about Lucius, I think it's also
worth noting that Dumbledore indicates that Malfoy may have in his
possession some of Tom Riddle's things, most notably the diary, and
therefore it's reasonable to conclude that he is one of the few people who
knows who Voldemort used to be. Voldy called him a friend--a slippery one,
but a friend, nonetheless. I think that while Lucius isn't old enough to
have been at school with Tom Riddle, he has certainly been with him since a
very early date, probably well before his rise to power. (This goes
hand-in-hand with my Lucius Malfoy theories, but I'll save those for an LM
sketch, if one ever comes up.)

> 2. Who are the Lestranges that are serving time in Azkaban?
> 
I think everyone's identified who they are from the Pensieve scene. But what
interests me is who were they? Sirius mentions them as part of Snape's gang
in Slytherin, so presumably one or both are the same age as Snape or near to
it. Also, this is the only instance of a female DE that we know of. We've
only met Narcissa Malfoy briefly, and while Narcissa must be aware of her
husband's activities, we have no idea how she feels about them. And there's
been no suggestion that she's an active participant, either.

<snip qu. 3>

> 4. And of course the eternal question.Why did Voldemort untie 
> Harry and give
> him back his wand?
 
My take on this is not necessarily the Evil Overlord blunder. I believe it
is to impress the DE's, but I think it's also to prove TO HIMSELF that he
can do it. This has been nettling him for a long time, and in his mania, he
can't understand why this silly boy is so all-fired immune to his assaults.
I think he gives Harry back his wand as much to satisfy his own curiosity as
anything else. It's hubris.

[Note that I do not think he knew about Lucius's activity with his diary in
CoS, and there is no connection between the Tom Riddle in the diary and
Voldemort's current incarnation. As far as he knows, this is only the third
time he's faced Harry. He doesn't recount anything in his lecture regarding
the second year.] 

 Amy Z's Discussion Questions:
> 
> 1. What is Voldemort's primary motivation?  To live forever?  To rid 
> the world of the non-pureblood (I know, he doesn't qualify 
> himself--racism knows no logic)?  Sheer lust for power?
> 
I think this falls under the heading, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
As with other genres involving a "dark side" of magic, I believe that in the
Potterverse, the deeper one becomes involved in dark arts, the more one is
enslaved by them. I think at this point, Voldemort has become so mired in
"black" magic that he no longer needs motivation per se. As for the others,
they come to him for a variety of reasons, and I believe he would easily
promise each one whatever they desire to gain their support. Whether he will
deliver is another question entirely. 

Rowling hints that immortality is his ultimate goal, or was when he started
down his path. I think that holds true, but that he will not need his
supporters once he gains what he seeks. Too much of his backstory revolves
around the search for immortality and indestructibility. So I definitely
think that's part of the equation, but at this point, any dark arts
knowledge is something he'll soak up just for its own sake.

There is an argument that he is addicted to being worshipped. However, he
disdains those who submit abjectly (such as Avery and Nott) and respects
those who defer to him, yet stand up to him (such as Lucius Malfoy). He even
tells Harry in SS/PS that he has always valued bravery (ch. 17). As far as
the holy war, I do think it's important to him, but not as important as
personal power and gain. Again, if he can live forever and continue to amass
more knowledge of the dark arts, who cares about the rest of the world?


> 2. Can he be killed?  <snip>
> Voldemort himself surmises that his experiments in immortality were 
> successful enough for him to survive a deflected AK, albeit barely.  
> However, Voldemort also describes his new (post-1995) life as 
> a mortal 
> one, not yet the immortality he's seeking (GF 33).
> 

See above in motivations. Again, it's linked closely to the discussion
questions from Ch. 33 as well.


> 4. Does he have an heir, and does he want one?  (I hate to ask this, 
> but it seems obligatory:) Is he going to prove to be related 
> to anyone 
> we know?
 
I can't see Voldemort wanting to pass his knowledge and/or power on to
anyone else. He's too selfish in all other respects. Also, if immortality is
his ultimate goal, he doesn't need to worry about leaving a legacy.

> 5. Is he your typical Evil Overlord who repeatedly makes unbelievably 
> dumb mistakes, or are we underestimating him?

I think this too is truly linked to the reasons behind why he gave Harry the
wand. But what other mistakes has he made? In SS/PS, he was looking for the
Stone to make himself a new body, the very thing he finally accomplished in
GoF. Neither he nor Quirrell expected Harry to come after him. Quirrell
tried to kill Harry in SS/PS because of his snooping, though I'm sure he
figured Voldemort wouldn't mind if he disposed of his nemesis for him. When
Voldemort does tell Quirrell to let him take over the talking, he still has
to rely on the professor to do the physical work, because of his disembodied
state. He's not directly involved in CoS or PoA. The memory of Tom Riddle
does underestimate Harry, but I concluded that his mistakes derive from the
twin factors of being an imperfect magic item and being based on a cocky
sixteen year old boy.

In GoF, though, it's different. His servants do what they are expected to
do, his plans go well, and he achieves his goal of regaining a body. The
only "mistake" he makes is to give Harry the wand, which, again, I feel is a
matter of pride and personal revenge between them. I doubt he had any idea
that Harry's wand shared its core with his. I certainly have trouble
believing that he would have risked Priori Incantatem if he suspected
anything of the kind.

So exactly what other Evil Overlord blunders has he committed? He hasn't
offered Harry a place by his side, supplanting loyal lieutenants as his
heir; he has an easy identifying mark to check against disguise spells and
so forth; he has exhibited his superiority over his minions and rules by
fear; he certainly hasn't devised elaborate death schemes involving vats of
oil or aligator pits. He's one-dimensional, that I'll concede. But I don't
think we've seen him be active enough yet to determine for sure whether he's
incompetent.

MMMfanfic made a comment that I'd also like to address:
> It would be strange if the entire year of Slytherins all become Death 
> Eaters. (which seems to be the case with Snape's year, as Sirius has 
> implied)  That, seriously, would make one doubt the value of a 
> Hogwarts education.  I can understand how two or three may become DE 
> but the 'entire gang'?  Even if we take the 'bad seeds' approach 
> (i.e. all Slytherins are destined to become Dark Witches and Wizards, 
> which even a 12 year-old can't believe.), it's just extreme to think 
> that DE=Slytherin.  (I look forward to a non-Slytherin DE, someone 
> other than that pathetic rat, Wormtail, who show us, so far, no trait 
> of a Gryffindor.)

I find this an interesting concept as well. I think that at Voldy's height,
there Were Voldy supporters (or at least those who were prejudiced against
Mudbloods) who weren't in Slytherin, and I think there are also Slytherins
who are just as upstanding as Gryffindors. The points about why the dark
appeals to different personalities are well taken, I think. Bravery and
loyalty and cleverness can still lead to doing the wrong things for the
right reasons. What Rowling has said repeatedly is that "nearly all the
wizards who've gone bad have been from Slytherin." I don't think it's
necessarily a breeding ground for bad wizards, but the essential trait of a
Slytherin, IMO, is that Slytherins are willing to do "whatever it takes" to
succeed. Their ambition is paramount, and it usually takes the form of
sneakiness. While one has to assume that there are safeguards against
cheating outright (c.f. the magic quills in SS/PS), Slytherins are much more
likely to manipulate the situation to their advantage than other houses. The
evidence so far suggests that a Gryffindor will break the rules if it's for
a good cause. A Slytherin will bend them or get around them if possible if
it advances a personal agenda. I doubt Hufflepuffs would have it in them to
break a rule outright, nor for that matter Ravenclaws. But I can easily see
any of them being seduced by the easy, attractive promises of dark wizardry,
given the right set of circumstances.

Gwen (getting out the fireproof shield)



From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Tue Mar  6 17:07:45 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:07:45 -0000
Subject: Important Announcement
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEBODFAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13732

Dear HPforGU Group members,

We have received intelligence that the 1000th member joined this group, via
the Yahoo Groups site, at 4 pm (GMT).

As you know the moderators have worked hard to make this group the success
that it is and I take this opportunity to thank them, on behalf of myself
and all of the members of this group, for all there hard work (Decree for
Reasonable Thanks to Group Moderators, 1657, Paragraph F).

I also ask you to remember and take note of the new groups set up by the
moderators, specifically deigned to make your life as Harry Potter fans
more enjoyable. I am talking about the Announcements
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements) and OT-Chatter groups
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter). The use of these groups is
for the benefit of all members of HPforGU, under section 56 of the
International Confederation for the Enjoyment of the HPforGU Groups by List
Members.

Enjoy your time here!

Yours Sincerely
Simon Branford
Proper use of the HPforGU Groups office
Ministry of Magic




From Allyse at my-deja.com  Tue Mar  6 17:28:11 2001
From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:28:11 -0000
Subject: Slytherin and Death eaters
In-Reply-To: <981qja+89tq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9836nb+p4j2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13733

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote:

>It would be strange if the entire year of Slytherins all become 
Death 
>Eaters. (which seems to be the case with Snape's year, as Sirius has 
>implied)  That, seriously, would make one doubt the value of a 
>Hogwarts education.  I can understand how two or three may become DE 
>but the 'entire gang'?  Even if we take the 'bad seeds' approach 
>(i.e. all Slytherins are destined to become Dark Witches and 
Wizards, 
>which even a 12 year-old can't believe.), it's just extreme to think 
>that DE=Slytherin.  

Ain't that the truth. :)

There's a fanfic out there (the name escapes me, sorry) that touches 
on this very point. I'm sorry to say the fic lost my interest after a 
while, but the initial chapters were a fascinating insight into the 
question of DE=Slytherin.

>From the Slytherin POV, then: Slytherin is for people of great 
ambition. Ambitious people, even if less brilliant or talented than 
others (such as Ravenclaws), will usually succeed because of their 
sheer determination and doggedness. This will translate into 
resentment by the others (Slytherin has won the cup seven years in a 
row) and sour grapes. If you think about the behavior of Hufflepuff 
and Ravenclaw at End of Year feasts and Quidditch matches, this 
becomes very clear.

As for the DE thing? Well, no one denies that Voldemort was a 
Slytherin, but that means that all Slytherins are painted with the 
same brush. Hagrid's line to Harry that there wasn't a wizard that 
went bad that wasn't from Slytherin (paraphrase, the book isn't at 
hand) is a broad, sweeping statement - one that has been repeated so 
often that it's more or less believed as the truth. Non-Slytherins 
that went bad? (Like Sirius is believed to be) Well, those are 
aberrations. But bad Slytherins? Naturally! All Slytherins are Death 
Eaters!

Since we see Slytherin only through Harry's limited POV, it's hard to 
judge them properly. Yes, they sneer at Harry constantly. So do 
Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff in large portions of PS, CoS, and GoF. 
(Losing  150 points, "seriously evil wizard coming through!" 
and "Support Cedric Diggory!") But Jo's abilty to provide us with 
lovely deep layers serves as a pretty good indication that there 
*has* to be more to Slytherin House than Harry thinks.

Allyse, who despite this long-winded post doesn't like Slytherin :)




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 18:07:18 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:07:18 -0800
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
Message-ID: <F22seVwrblZz02H67yR00000bf1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13734




<1. What is Voldemort's primary motivation?  To live forever?  To rid
the world of the non-pureblood (I know, he doesn't qualify
himself--racism knows no logic)?  Sheer lust for power?>

I subscribe to the notion that he has other motives all together for his 
plot to Rule The World...


<2. Can he be killed?  Hagrid surmises that by the time he killed the
Potters, he was no longer human enough to die (PS/SS 4); Dumbledore
says "not being truly alive, he cannot be killed" (PS/SS 17);
Voldemort himself surmises that his experiments in immortality were
successful enough for him to survive a deflected AK, albeit barely.
However, Voldemort also describes his new (post-1995) life as a mortal
one, not yet the immortality he's seeking (GF 33).>

It's one of those typical horror movie things - the killer cannot be killed 
until the very end, when you chop him into fish sticks, decapitated him and 
hydroliclly freeze his head (however you do that; sounds impressive) or rip 
his beating heart out of his chest. He has immortal tendencies, but I think 
it'll take good old fashioned medevil tourture techniqes to knock off that 
bad boy.


<3. How will having been restored by Harry's blood affect him?>

"...blood of the enemy, forceably taken.." I think it is like the whole 
Count Dracula (the *real* one, not the vampire) thing. He thought that by 
drinking his enemies' blood he could get their strengths and powers. I'm 
almost sure that his haveing some of Harry's blood in his veins will mean 
Harry has to do some impossible task later to kill him.

<4. Does he have an heir, and does he want one?  (I hate to ask this,
but it seems obligatory:) Is he going to prove to be related to anyone
we know?>

*snort* want an heir? Why the bloody hell would he * want * an heir when his 
goal is to be immortal? Of course, the fanfic world automaticly dubs Draco 
Malfoy ('finger puppet of evil', to quote Cass) as Voldemort's heir, but 
that's just a silly notion, IMO. Related to someone we know? I doubt it. 
Star Wars, anyone?

<5. Is he your typical Evil Overlord who repeatedly makes unbelievably
dumb mistakes, or are we underestimating him?>

I cannot believe that JK would fall subject to this Big, Icky Pit. Why does 
the bad guy need to be a bumbling idiot? I don't think that from what we 
have seen of him he is. Think the Chamber part, and the GoF scenes...he 
seems quite pulled together and Machiavellian.



==============
MC Crusty

My Personal Ship: Draco/Harry
Favorite HP Character: Lucius Malfoy
Favorite Actor: Tom Felton...and Daniel Radcliffe. *sob*
Creepy Knowladge: "Draco" is in 27 frames of the trailer
Favorite Movie: The Harry Potter Trailer *snerk*

"I'll cable Hitler and tell him to shoot around you."



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From margdean at erols.com  Tue Mar  6 19:35:53 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:35:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mistakes?
References: <9831qf+9d73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA53C19.FA6FD85E@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13735

luv697 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Other then the mistake about Harry's parents comeing out of the wand
> in the wrong order, I also noticed that Harry's mother is reffered to
> as a muggle. If I remember correctly, it was in the first book that
> his mother is said to be a witch that attended Hogwarts.

Harry's mother (Lily Evans Potter) was apparently "Muggle-born,"
that is, a witch born into a Muggle family -- rather like
Hermione.  I'd have to go back and check to see if Harry's mother
is ever referred to as simply a "Muggle."  But it would be easy
to mix up the two, and somebody like Draco Malfoy might do it
deliberately in order to be insulting.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Mar  6 20:32:43 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:32:43 -0700
Subject: Order of Merlin, First Class (was: Important Announcement)
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEBODFAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEENBDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13736

The Ministry of Magic proudly awards the Order of Merlin, First Class, to
our Honorable Listmom and Moderators:

	Penny Linsenmayer - Listmom and soon-to-be-real-mom
	Jeralyn (Voicelady)
	Jim Flanagan
	John Walton (Crazy Ivan)
	Neil Ward (Flying Ford Anglia)
	Melanie Moore (is she still out there?)

for the outstanding job they do -- keeping hundreds of unruly adults in
line, working on the FAQs, posting thought-provoking messages, and being
just plain silly.  And they do it for free!  Great job, Pottermaniacs!!:


SML
==============================================
"Very well," said Madame Maxime, bowing
slightly. "Will you please inform zis 'Agrid
zat ze 'orses drink only single-malt
whiskey?"
     --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
==============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon [mailto:simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 10:08 AM
To: HPforGU
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Important Announcement


Dear HPforGU Group members,

We have received intelligence that the 1000th member joined this group, via
the Yahoo Groups site, at 4 pm (GMT).

As you know the moderators have worked hard to make this group the success
that it is and I take this opportunity to thank them, on behalf of myself
and all of the members of this group, for all there hard work (Decree for
Reasonable Thanks to Group Moderators, 1657, Paragraph F).

I also ask you to remember and take note of the new groups set up by the
moderators, specifically deigned to make your life as Harry Potter fans
more enjoyable. I am talking about the Announcements
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements) and OT-Chatter groups
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter). The use of these groups is
for the benefit of all members of HPforGU, under section 56 of the
International Confederation for the Enjoyment of the HPforGU Groups by List
Members.

Enjoy your time here!

Yours Sincerely
Simon Branford
Proper use of the HPforGU Groups office
Ministry of Magic


_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join
now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 21:11:10 2001
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (neptune_1984)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:11:10 -0600
Subject: Music
References: <983850489.1674.56111.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000901c0a681$f8e01180$280a303f@f7yt10b>

No: HPFGUIDX 13737

My friend, who doesn't have a computer and had to come to my house to see
the trailer, thought the begining music was very much like the music from
"Home Alone," which isn't surprising since "Home Alone" was directed by
Chris Colombus and the music was done by John Williams.

================
Share this dragon
if you do,
lucky end
for  them and you
<\-/>
 | " |
(o_o)





_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From john at walton.to  Tue Mar  6 21:14:24 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:14:24 +0000
Subject: Order of Merlin, First Class Acceptance Speech
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEENBDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <B6CB03B0.D5BE%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 13738

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> The Ministry of Magic proudly awards the Order of Merlin, First Class, to
<snip> John Walton (Crazy Ivan) <snip> for <snip> being just plain silly.

::loud cough:: Er...taxi and one of those funny jackets with the arms the
wrong way round for Ms Lunatic, please.

::approaches podium flanked by the other Mods, grabs the microphone and
pulls off coat to reveal the Celine Dion drag-clad Russian Cabin Boy::

Thank you, thank you, thank you, there's a whole team behind us, I'd like to
thank the people at YahooGroups for constant amusement; our Manager, Holotta
Lafs; our Medical team, led by the Dishy Dr Branford, soon to appear on ER
[oohs and aahs from crowd] yeah yeah, calm down. I'd also like to thank our
house-elves and my personal Secret Secluded Sex Room Slaves. (aside: What? I
can't say that onlist? Damn...) I will now do a charming Medley of Caius'
Filks. Thank you and good night. ::hands microphone over::

((What's that, you ask? A winner of the Draco Malfoy Teacher Appreciation
Prize? That's right...it's SISTER MARY LUNATIC! ::wild applause::))

--John




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Mar  6 21:30:24 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:30:24 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <9826l5+gk8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <983ktg+2ts2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13739


> 
> 1. What is Voldemort's primary motivation?  To live forever?  To rid 
> the world of the non-pureblood (I know, he doesn't qualify 
> himself--racism knows no logic)?  Sheer lust for power?

Gosh, I think it is all of those things.  Powerful people (uh, beings) 
seem to want nothing more than more POWER.  He also lives to 
continually avenge his father's abandonment of his mother (like many 
survivors of abuse who grow up to abuse do).
> 
> 2. Can he be killed?  Hagrid surmises that by the time he killed the 
> Potters, he was no longer human enough to die (PS/SS 4); Dumbledore 
> says "not being truly alive, he cannot be killed" (PS/SS 17); 
> Voldemort himself surmises that his experiments in immortality were 
> successful enough for him to survive a deflected AK, albeit barely.  
> However, Voldemort also describes his new (post-1995) life as a 
mortal one, not yet the immortality he's seeking (GF 33).

Killed, vanquished - sure, but I worry that he will kill Harry along 
the way (the heartbreak of that is overwhelming just to think about).  
I am quite sure that Dumbledore will also die along the way.  Believe 
me, Voldemort will not go peacefully!  
> 
> 3. How will having been restored by Harry's blood affect him?

I'm not so sure about that one.  I was excited to see how many others 
picked up on Dumbledore's triumphant look when he heard of this, so we 
know it is significant.  However, whether Harry's blood weakens poor 
old Voldie or makes him mortal or maybe gives him a little bit o' love 
remains to be seen.
> 
> 4. Does he have an heir, and does he want one?  (I hate to ask this, 
> but it seems obligatory:) Is he going to prove to be related to 
anyone we know?

Please NO!  I hate the idea of Harry being related to him.  Am I the 
only one who is tired of that surprise ending?
> 
> 5. Is he your typical Evil Overlord who repeatedly makes 
unbelievably dumb mistakes, or are we underestimating him?

I think his mistakes are all ego motivated.  You know, serial killers 
like to collect memorabilia from their victims and brag about their 
deeds.  Voldie sense of logic is almost gone, and when you lose focus 
of your quest, you will get sidetracked and may not succeed.  Then 
again, Voldie is no dummy.  I'd like to think that we are 
underestimating Harry.  I also go back to point I made earlier: plot 
development.
> 
> --




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 21:45:20 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:45:20 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <983ktg+2ts2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <983lpg+k486@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13740

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 1. What is Voldemort's primary motivation?  To live forever?  To 
rid 
> > the world of the non-pureblood (I know, he doesn't qualify 
> > himself--racism knows no logic)?  Sheer lust for power?
> 
> Gosh, I think it is all of those things.  Powerful people (uh, 
beings) 
> seem to want nothing more than more POWER.  He also lives to 
> continually avenge his father's abandonment of his mother (like 
many 
> survivors of abuse who grow up to abuse do).

Agree here. I think they all kind of merge together in the Voldemort 
master plan which goes something like this:  Rule a world purged of 
muggles as an omnipotent, immortal emperor. Because we haven't seen 
situations in which his professed goals are in conflict, we can't 
really say which one is in first place. Certainly they aren't in 
conflict inherently. 

<Vold. immortal?>
> Killed, vanquished - sure, but I worry that he will kill Harry 
along 
> the way (the heartbreak of that is overwhelming just to think 
about).  
> I am quite sure that Dumbledore will also die along the way.  
Believe 
> me, Voldemort will not go peacefully!  

There is some sense in some passages that Voldemort is an immortal 
evil, or what he has come to stand for will never go away. However, I 
think it is quite possible now that the revived Voldemort is 
killable. 


<snip>

> > 
> > 4. Does he have an heir, and does he want one?  (I hate to ask 
this, 
> > but it seems obligatory:) Is he going to prove to be related to 
> anyone we know?
> 
> Please NO!  I hate the idea of Harry being related to him.  Am I 
the 
> only one who is tired of that surprise ending?
> > 

That's the problem with all these tropes. Done once, they were 
powerful, and we overlooked the downsides to them. Done for the 
thirtieth time, they can become irritating, if not executed in a very 
good way. Plus there is a certain paradox in this being referred to 
as a "surprise ending." I also agree that someone who wants to be 
immortal would have no need for an heir. 


> > 5. Is he your typical Evil Overlord who repeatedly makes 
> unbelievably dumb mistakes, or are we underestimating him?
> 
> I think his mistakes are all ego motivated.  You know, serial 
killers 
> like to collect memorabilia from their victims and brag about their 
> deeds.  Voldie sense of logic is almost gone, and when you lose 
focus 
> of your quest, you will get sidetracked and may not succeed.  Then 
> again, Voldie is no dummy.  I'd like to think that we are 
> underestimating Harry.  I also go back to point I made earlier: 
plot 
> development.
> > 

I think that Voldemort's sense of logic is not necessarily bad. You 
could also look at it this way. Whatever Voldemort's continual flaws 
as a plotter, leader, or manager of evil minions are, the fact that 
he's a genius at magic compensates for them, which is why he wasn't 
defeated before. Also, no matter how realistic it is to have his ego 
undo him, he has minions who can work to compensate for his 
misjudgements as well. 

Charmian





From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Mar  6 21:43:43 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:43:43 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of Merlin, First Class Acceptance Speech
In-Reply-To: <B6CB03B0.D5BE%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOEENEDCAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13741

Crazy Ivan wrote:
((What's that, you ask? A winner of the Draco Malfoy Teacher Appreciation
Prize? That's right...it's SISTER MARY LUNATIC! ::wild applause::))

SML says, aside to Ivan, "I TOLD my Dad you were the BEST moderator, so he
would vote you the recognition you deserve."  Tossing back my black leather
wimple and allowing my thigh-high boots to show through the slit in my
form-fitting black habit as I walk to the podium, I produce a Lockhart-like
smile and thank my parents, my pit crew, my makeup team, and the Aztec God
Queetzel for this award, but most of all, I thank YOU ALL, my FANS, who made
this wonderful evening possible.

(Reporter's note:  Shortly after this speech, SML was mowed down by a
hit-and-run driver.  Witnesses say the auto resembled an old Ford
Anglia....)



==============================================
"Very well," said Madame Maxime, bowing
slightly. "Will you please inform zis 'Agrid
zat ze 'orses drink only single-malt
whiskey?"
     --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
==============================================




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Mar  6 22:02:34 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:02:34 -0800
Subject: Lucius Malfoy (was: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010305130618.00ae52a0@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
References: <006b01c0a5b6$9ed405a0$5674d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306134536.039916b0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13742

At 01:09 PM 3/5/01 -0800, Katie Kearns wrote:
>He's powerful, he's rich, he's capable. He's also kept up a good deal of
>his evilness even while Voldy was gone.

One question I have -- Does Voldy know about the CoS/Diary incident?
He makes no mention of it in his speech.  Perhaps LM would not be so
much in V's good graces if V knew that he had cravenly tried to bring
him back by "cloning" (via the Diary) rather than searching out the real
mccoy and having to answer for his seeming disloyalty since V vanished.

>He's had the ministry of magic
>under his thumb -- and probably still has total power over them. That's no
>small thing!

*Why* does he have so much power over the MoM?  Is he a big
campaign donor?  Is he president of the National Unforgivable-Curses
Association?  Does he have more dirt on everyone than Rita Skeeter?
("I have in my cloak a LIST...")

>He even got Dumbledore thrown out as headmaster for a short
>period of time.

And now I'm worried that next time he'll get D. ousted for a *long*
period of time.  (Disclaimer: No rumors that I know of to this effect --
Just my own  personal anxiety about the "talk" Fudge is going to
have with D.)



                                                 -- Dave




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 22:06:40 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:06:40 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <9834js+81b4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <983n1g+hitq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13743

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
<snip>\
Or maybe the more anagramically-correct Evil 
> Vile Insidious League.  One thing that is striking about Voldy is 
his 
> adolescentness.  His title is simply an anagram of his real name, 
> created while still a student -- it has a boyish cleverness.  And 
> calling himself Lord also seems very adolescent.  I think that kids 
> often give themselves royal titles to make themselves feel bigger.  
> It seems as childish as those one of those stupid ''Kentucky 
> Colonels'', like calling yourself Colonel Sanders or something.  
And 
> the only time we really get to know him very well is when he 
appears 
> as his adolescent self out of the diary.  Maybe this is true of all 
> Evil Overlord-types, but Voldy does seem awfully adolescent.
> 

That's true. I'm trying to think of what would make an Evil Overlord 
type more adult. But he can't exactly change the Lord Voldemort name 
after carrying it so long, can he? Look what happened to the artist 
formerly known as Prince. 

<snip>
> But what did he really do?  It is still unclear to me.  OK, he 
> murdered a bunch of people, but is that enough to get an Evil 
> Overlord rating?  I thought you had to be more than just Jack the 
> Ripper or Son of Sam to be an Evil Overlord.  What did Voldy do 
that 
> rates him higher than just a garden-variety serial killer?

Well, I think it is the nature of the ambition. Lord Voldemort is not 
really a serial killer in the clinical sense of the term, as opposed 
to the literal sense. He doesn't only want to kill people, but wants 
to take over the world and leads an organization of people who want 
to help him do it (that's the overlord part. To be an overlord, you 
need minions), overthrow the government, rebuild the world in his own 
image, etc. 
> 

> Also, I dont remember Voldy having an alliance with giants.  Did I 
> miss something? (Likely, but if anyone could point me to the 
> appropriate chapter and verse I will reread.)

Somewhere in GoF, I recall. That's the reason for Hagrid's mission. 

<snip>

> It seems to me that there are two possibilities:
> (1) Voldy will turn out to be your standard evil guy, just out to 
do 
> evil for the hell of it -- essentially a plot device so that the 
hero 
> has someone to best.
> (2) Voldy will turn out to have some Hitlerian Evil Plan to rule 
the 
> world, live forever, kill all the non-pure types, market his own 
> brand of hair-care produces, take over Hogwarts, etc.

I think canon currently supports the second. Muggle oppression is a 
large part of his program, as can be seen from his statements. 
Voldemort, like most evil villains, probably sees his goals as good 
(no matter twisted his logic is), rather than bad. So he can't really 
be described as out to do evil for the hell of it. He's not doing 
gratuitous acts. 

<snip>

Other questions:  (geez, I am responding waaaay too much to these 
Lord Voldemort threads)

How many people know of his true identity as Tom Marvolo Riddle? 
Isn't it odd that no one, after his defeat, would write about it or 
discuss where Lord V came from? Certainly wizards just don't pop out 
of nowhere. 

Is Lord V the evil wizard to end all evil wizards, or are movements 
like the Death Eaters not unprecedented in the HP world?

Before he became Lord Voldemort, did he act in a somewhat psychotic 
way at Hogwarts? (From what we see now, Voldster always behaves in a 
very melodramatic way) Dumbledore suspected something, didn't he? 

Is Lucius Malfoy really his friend, if Voldemort can be said to have 
any, or was that just a figure of speech? 

Why are some of the Death Eaters so loyal to him that they'd be 
willing to go to Akzaban for his sake? (The rest just seem along for 
the ride/out for their own interests)

Charmian





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Mar  6 22:14:09 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:14:09 -0800
Subject: Taking Sides (was: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters)
In-Reply-To: <006b01c0a5b6$9ed405a0$5674d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306140344.00ded3b0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13744

At 03:55 PM 3/5/01 -0500, Carole Estes wrote:
>3. Will Voldemort get the dementors and the giants to follow him in his
>"army of creatures whom all fear"?

Dementors, yes.  Giants, maybe.

What other creatures will he recruit?  I have this recurring nightmare about
Voldy with an diverse army of horrific monsters that make Baum's Phanfasms,
Whimsies, and Growleywogs look warm and cuddly.

I've brought this up before, but whay side will the Centaurs take?  Or will
they be equivalent to Switzerland?

And then there's the snakes -- I think D. should send Harry as envoy
to the snakes of Britian.  (I'm really hoping JKR doesn't pigeonhole snakes
as "evil" creatures... I've even got this idea about the Boa that Harry freed
coming back and finishing off Nagini.)



                                                 -- Dave




From hipsbeforehands at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 22:25:26 2001
From: hipsbeforehands at yahoo.com (hipsbeforehands at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:25:26 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <983ktg+2ts2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <983o4n+o18d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13745

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:

> > 2. Can he be killed?  
 
> Killed, vanquished - sure, but I worry that he will kill Harry 
along the way (the heartbreak of that is overwhelming just to think 
about).  I am quite sure that Dumbledore will also die along the 
way.  Believe me, Voldemort will not go peacefully!  

I wonder if the key to killing Voldemort is related to how Harry 
originally survived (i.e., the power of Lily's love protecting Harry, 
unforseen by Voldemort). Might Harry have to make the ultimate 
sacrifice and give his own life/love to save the entire world? As 
saddening as the idea of offing Harry is--it does seem fair to the 
story and characters. JKR would probably go there. (Of course, that's 
not to say her publishers would actually let her at this point.) 

Caren
~newbie cautiously delurking




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 22:34:54 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:34:54 -0000
Subject: Mortality and Harry
In-Reply-To: <983o4n+o18d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <983ome+3q2a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13746

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., hipsbeforehands at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:

(You know, I almost titled this post "Offing Harry" but felt that 
would be bad for the cardiovascular health of us all)

> 
> I wonder if the key to killing Voldemort is related to how Harry 
> originally survived (i.e., the power of Lily's love protecting 
Harry, 
> unforseen by Voldemort). Might Harry have to make the ultimate 
> sacrifice and give his own life/love to save the entire world? As 
> saddening as the idea of offing Harry is--it does seem fair to the 
> story and characters. JKR would probably go there. (Of course, 
that's 
> not to say her publishers would actually let her at this point.) 
> 

Probably does have something important to do with his mom, given that 
JKR has said we'll be hearing more about the mysterious Lily Potter 
(n?e Evans). I'm not quite convinced yet JKR's going in that 
direction, but killing off Harry would only happen in book seven, I 
believe. So I think the publishers wouldn't really care. Besides, 
killing Harry would probably increase sales if anything, just from 
the shock value. Plus the more an author sells, the more clout s/he 
has with his or her publisher. 

Charmian, verbosely




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 22:51:03 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:51:03 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <983n1g+hitq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <983pkn+jdd0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13747

Charmian posed:

> Other questions:  (geez, I am responding waaaay too much to these 
> Lord Voldemort threads)

Welcome to the Evil Vile Insidious League!
 
> How many people know of his true identity as Tom Marvolo Riddle? 
> Isn't it odd that no one, after his defeat, would write about it or 
> discuss where Lord V came from? Certainly wizards just don't pop out 
> of nowhere. 

Dumbledore, Harry, Lucius (he knows now, if he wasn't 100% sure what 
the diary was when he passed it on to Ginny, 'cause Dumbledore warned 
him against "giving away any more of Tom Riddle's school 
things")...anyone else?  There could be a plausible backstory to how 
he rose to power, but we might never learn it.

> Is Lord V the evil wizard to end all evil wizards, or are movements 
> like the Death Eaters not unprecedented in the HP world?

Sometimes he's referred to as the worst dark wizard "in a century," 
sometimes "ever"; both are probably more hyperbole than verifiable 
fact (how does one quantify Evil Wizardry?).  Suffice it to say he's 
really, really evil and really, really powerful.  I'd imagine someone 
like him, if not as strong, comes along every so often--human nature 
being what it is.
   One thing I believe strongly is that he is not Evil Itself, i.e. 
killing him won't destroy Evil.  Again, human nature being what it is. 
 There can always be another Hitler, Stalin, Amin, Pol Pot...the fact 
that we can generate a list like that proves it.

> Before he became Lord Voldemort, did he act in a somewhat psychotic 
> way at Hogwarts? (From what we see now, Voldster always behaves in a 
> very melodramatic way) Dumbledore suspected something, didn't he? 

I agree AD was on to him (judging from the diary scene).  The great 
man is not one to be fooled by a pretty face and a charming 
manner--something those who think he's overly trusting would do well 
to remember (got that, Cornelius?  Alastor?).  But by the same token, 
I don't think too many others were on to him, nor that AD had anything 
concrete he could point to.  TR was clearly viewed as a model student 
even while he was busy releasing basilisks, framing other students, 
etc.

> Is Lucius Malfoy really his friend, if Voldemort can be said to have 
> any, or was that just a figure of speech? 

I opt for the latter.  Some people use the phrase "my friend" 
precisely when they're feeling unfriendly.  Hard to imagine V really 
has friends, isn't it?  Tools and allies, not friends.

To Joywitch re: sarcasm as a bad quality:  I knew I was running a risk 
with that one.  There's sarcasm and there's sarcasm.  Ron's is 
generally affectionate and harmless; Voldemort's is cutting and cruel. 
 On the whole, it's not a form of humor I'm crazy about, but it all 
depends on context.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
 "We could all have been killed--or worse, expelled."
                   -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------------




From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 23:10:07 2001
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:10:07 -0000
Subject: Ron/Hermione from the viewpoint of a 14 yr. old
In-Reply-To: <000e01c0a5dc$c2d067c0$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <983qof+tlnj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13748

*delurks momentarily*

After viewing the whole ship/to crash the ship situation, I've been 
struck to toss my not-so-random opinions on this subject onto the 
dock.  Just for the record, I'm a fervent-- almost rabid-- 
Harry/Hermione shipper, and hell nor high water will ever change 
that.  Even if Harry/Draco does result in cute mental imagery.  ("You 
know, Potter, the only reason I'm sleeping with you is because your 
coloring compliments my skin tone, so don't flatter yourself.")  
Ahem.  Anyway.  On with the post.

>About the Ron/Hermione brawl, as a 14 year old myself I think 
>Hermione WAS egging Ron into asking her out.  

I wouldn't call it a "brawl", would you?  Brings to mind overfed 
participants in the WWF, and I don't think Hermione nor Ron would 
take very kindly to being compared to such lifeforms.  *eg*

Speaking as someone (not saying the age... if you don't know already, 
guess *g*) who can say "been there, done that, lived to tell about 
it, wrote the fanfic based on it, complained to the world about it" 
on this situation, I must disagree.  Although that particular excerpt 
from the book serves well to illustrate the reasoning behind Ron 
having feelings for Hermione, it does absolutely nothing to further 
the theory of Hermione liking Ron at all.  I believe that Hermione 
acted as any member of the Sisterhood would in such a situation: when 
faced with something she found to be degrading and irrational, she 
vociferously attacked the offender.  In this case, the "degrading and 
irrational" situation was that of Ron, someone who purports himself 
to be a dear friend, taking her for granted in the cruelest way 
possible.  He didn't ask her to the Ball in the first place; and for 
some warped reason, he percieved this to be *her* fault, almost.  Or 
at least, that is the way it came out.  He blatantly accused her of 
something that wasn't her fault; as she stated, if he wished to go to 
the Ball with her, he should have asked first.  Not Hermione's fault 
in the least, and Ron was a jackalope for even daring to take his 
frustration out on her.  

I also don't believe this reaction would have been limited solely to 
Ron; if Harry, Dean, Seamus, or any other male had been in his place 
and taken his actions, Hermione would have chided them in a similar 
manner.  So, this in no way supports the idea that Hermione 
was "egging" Ron into asking her out.  All it serves to show is that 
she's a girl after my own heart-- one that doesn't take any guff!


>A statement like "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone 
>else does, and not as a last resort!" from a teen is an act of 
>frustration because of total crush-ness.  Most people my age 
>certainly wouldn't say that to their best friend if it didn't mean 
>something.  

I agree on the count of total frustration; however, I must disagree 
on the count of "total crush-ness".  Once again, going back to my 
earlier explanation: it was frustration at the *situation*, of Ron 
being so pigheaded as to blame it solely on her.  

Although the age-group awkwardness must be taken into consideration, 
remember that Harry and Ron *are* her best friends, and *are* male.  
Hermione is most certainly *not* uncomfortable with the male species, 
and there would be no reason for her to have any qualms about 
blasting Ron's head off into oblivion for treating her in that 
manner.  Although some girls, the ones who have acquaintances that 
are primarily female, might say this out of some sort of romantic 
interest, I highly doubt that Hermione would.  One of the reasons 
that I identify so much with Hermione is that we're in similar 
situations: the Brains of the class, with boys for best friends.  In 
most scenes of the book, the actions she takes are the ones I would 
take, also.  And I can see myself lambasting any one of my friends 
for daring to accuse me of something that was their fault, not 
because I have a romantic interest in them, but because they're 
idiots.  There *is* room for interpretation, but overall, I'd have to 
disagree.  Hermione isn't the type of girl to say that in a manner 
indicative of feelings any more than those of a platonic nature.    

>IMHO Hermione *is* telling Ron, "You should have asked me first and 
>if you don't next time I'll learn a new unforgivable curse to use on 
>you!".  

I agree with this, in a different sense.  *g*  I'd like to take this 
as, "If you wanted to go so badly with me, you should have asked 
first; and if you dare to blame this all on me next time, you'll be 
so sorry that you'll go groveling to Draco Malfoy for sympathy."

>And plus, why would Ron tear apart his little Krum "action figure" 
(arm found under bed...forgot which chapter...) if he wasn't 
>jealous?  Fraternizing with the "enemy" couldn't have been why
> Ron was angry, because he got Krum's autograph in the end.

Unfortunately, I must acquiesce on the point of Ron having an 
interest in Hermione.  I don't like it, but it's fact, just like the 
fact that George W. Bush is now President.  I don't like either fact, 
but I'm stuck with it.  (And I only have to wait four years on 
both!)  But, this does nothing to say that Hermione will reciprocate 
his feelings.  Hermione liked Professor Lockhart, that was definitely 
obvious, but you didn't see him putting himself in a Mary Kay 
Letourneau position just because she liked him, did you?  (If you 
did, tell me; I think I missed that passage in that case.)  The point 
is, just because someone feels something for someone doesn't 
necessarily mean that the object of the lavished affections feels the 
same, at all. 

>There are lots of other facts that point to a Ron/Hermione romance, 
>and I think it's coming up in canon.

For the sake of saving my fast-sinking shipmates and I, could you 
enlighten me?  Perhaps it comes about from my refusal to read 
anything into R/H and adamance in dissecting the events that could be 
interpreted as H/H, but I really don't see them as being very 
obvious.  On the contrary, I see the current situation as standing: 
Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Harry, Harry likes Cho/no one at 
this moment.

Poor things.

Sinking back into lurkdom, 

Alicia/Sue Spinnet, Second-Mate on the SS H/H, Cptn. of the SS D/G




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Tue Mar  6 23:11:07 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:11:07 -0000
Subject: Lord Voldermort as Evilness?
Message-ID: <983qqb+94kq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13749


 As Lord Voldemort Tom seems to grow immortal. He cannot be killed, 
and he surrenders by living of the minds of weaker souls. As Tom he 
does have characteristics besides being wicked (smart, handsome, all 
that) but Voldemort is evil and evil only. he know not love nor pity 
nor mercy. and so on.
 Couldnt you just say that Voldemort is evilness personified? even if 
it would be to make it easy.

/jennifer  




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 23:42:16 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:42:16 -0000
Subject: Ron/Hermione from the viewpoint of a 14 yr. old
In-Reply-To: <983qof+tlnj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <983sko+8c7e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13750

Though I'm fifteen, not fourteen, I have to agree with what Alicia has 
said- I myself was a girl who grew up associating more with males than 
with girls, and while a 'girly' girl of my age would shriek and act 
like a helpless little oh-my-god twit if some boy insulted her, I 
would most definitely make sure he regretted it. *censors further 
violent comments*

Hermione is a girl. Like me, she is learning to adopt girlish ways 
for big social events- the usage of the Hair Potion, the special 
attention to appearance- but also like me she is at heart more 'male' 
than a normal girl- more willing to strike out and blow the heads off 
of people who piss her off, more willing to throw a punch at some 
insolent boy rather than shriek. I don't think Hermione is the 
temptress kind, luring Ron on with "next time ask me before someone 
else does" statement- she is honestly attacking him right back for 
having been insensible to her.

And now that I've basically gone in circles and confused myself, I'm 
going to go into lurk mode.

- Celeste Chang


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., AliciaSpinnet at h... wrote:
> *delurks momentarily*
> 
> After viewing the whole ship/to crash the ship situation, I've been 
> struck to toss my not-so-random opinions on this subject onto the 
> dock.  Just for the record, I'm a fervent-- almost rabid-- 
> Harry/Hermione shipper, and hell nor high water will ever change 
> that.  Even if Harry/Draco does result in cute mental imagery.  
("You 
> know, Potter, the only reason I'm sleeping with you is because your 
> coloring compliments my skin tone, so don't flatter yourself.")  
> Ahem.  Anyway.  On with the post.
> 
> >About the Ron/Hermione brawl, as a 14 year old myself I think 
> >Hermione WAS egging Ron into asking her out.  
> 
> I wouldn't call it a "brawl", would you?  Brings to mind overfed 
> participants in the WWF, and I don't think Hermione nor Ron would 
> take very kindly to being compared to such lifeforms.  *eg*
> 
> Speaking as someone (not saying the age... if you don't know 
already, 
> guess *g*) who can say "been there, done that, lived to tell about 
> it, wrote the fanfic based on it, complained to the world about it" 
> on this situation, I must disagree.  Although that particular 
excerpt 
> from the book serves well to illustrate the reasoning behind Ron 
> having feelings for Hermione, it does absolutely nothing to further 
> the theory of Hermione liking Ron at all.  I believe that Hermione 
> acted as any member of the Sisterhood would in such a situation: 
when 
> faced with something she found to be degrading and irrational, she 
> vociferously attacked the offender.  In this case, the "degrading 
and 
> irrational" situation was that of Ron, someone who purports himself 
> to be a dear friend, taking her for granted in the cruelest way 
> possible.  He didn't ask her to the Ball in the first place; and for 
> some warped reason, he percieved this to be *her* fault, almost.  Or 
> at least, that is the way it came out.  He blatantly accused her of 
> something that wasn't her fault; as she stated, if he wished to go 
to 
> the Ball with her, he should have asked first.  Not Hermione's fault 
> in the least, and Ron was a jackalope for even daring to take his 
> frustration out on her.  
> 
> I also don't believe this reaction would have been limited solely to 
> Ron; if Harry, Dean, Seamus, or any other male had been in his place 
> and taken his actions, Hermione would have chided them in a similar 
> manner.  So, this in no way supports the idea that Hermione 
> was "egging" Ron into asking her out.  All it serves to show is that 
> she's a girl after my own heart-- one that doesn't take any guff!
> 
> 
> >A statement like "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone 
> >else does, and not as a last resort!" from a teen is an act of 
> >frustration because of total crush-ness.  Most people my age 
> >certainly wouldn't say that to their best friend if it didn't mean 
> >something.  
> 
> I agree on the count of total frustration; however, I must disagree 
> on the count of "total crush-ness".  Once again, going back to my 
> earlier explanation: it was frustration at the *situation*, of Ron 
> being so pigheaded as to blame it solely on her.  
> 
> Although the age-group awkwardness must be taken into consideration, 
> remember that Harry and Ron *are* her best friends, and *are* male. 
 
> Hermione is most certainly *not* uncomfortable with the male 
species, 
> and there would be no reason for her to have any qualms about 
> blasting Ron's head off into oblivion for treating her in that 
> manner.  Although some girls, the ones who have acquaintances that 
> are primarily female, might say this out of some sort of romantic 
> interest, I highly doubt that Hermione would.  One of the reasons 
> that I identify so much with Hermione is that we're in similar 
> situations: the Brains of the class, with boys for best friends.  In 
> most scenes of the book, the actions she takes are the ones I would 
> take, also.  And I can see myself lambasting any one of my friends 
> for daring to accuse me of something that was their fault, not 
> because I have a romantic interest in them, but because they're 
> idiots.  There *is* room for interpretation, but overall, I'd have 
to 
> disagree.  Hermione isn't the type of girl to say that in a manner 
> indicative of feelings any more than those of a platonic nature.    
> 
> >IMHO Hermione *is* telling Ron, "You should have asked me first and 
> >if you don't next time I'll learn a new unforgivable curse to use 
on 
> >you!".  
> 
> I agree with this, in a different sense.  *g*  I'd like to take this 
> as, "If you wanted to go so badly with me, you should have asked 
> first; and if you dare to blame this all on me next time, you'll be 
> so sorry that you'll go groveling to Draco Malfoy for sympathy."
> 
> >And plus, why would Ron tear apart his little Krum "action figure" 
> (arm found under bed...forgot which chapter...) if he wasn't 
> >jealous?  Fraternizing with the "enemy" couldn't have been why
> > Ron was angry, because he got Krum's autograph in the end.
> 
> Unfortunately, I must acquiesce on the point of Ron having an 
> interest in Hermione.  I don't like it, but it's fact, just like the 
> fact that George W. Bush is now President.  I don't like either 
fact, 
> but I'm stuck with it.  (And I only have to wait four years on 
> both!)  But, this does nothing to say that Hermione will reciprocate 
> his feelings.  Hermione liked Professor Lockhart, that was 
definitely 
> obvious, but you didn't see him putting himself in a Mary Kay 
> Letourneau position just because she liked him, did you?  (If you 
> did, tell me; I think I missed that passage in that case.)  The 
point 
> is, just because someone feels something for someone doesn't 
> necessarily mean that the object of the lavished affections feels 
the 
> same, at all. 
> 
> >There are lots of other facts that point to a Ron/Hermione romance, 
> >and I think it's coming up in canon.
> 
> For the sake of saving my fast-sinking shipmates and I, could you 
> enlighten me?  Perhaps it comes about from my refusal to read 
> anything into R/H and adamance in dissecting the events that could 
be 
> interpreted as H/H, but I really don't see them as being very 
> obvious.  On the contrary, I see the current situation as standing: 
> Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Harry, Harry likes Cho/no one at 
> this moment.
> 
> Poor things.
> 
> Sinking back into lurkdom, 
> 
> Alicia/Sue Spinnet, Second-Mate on the SS H/H, Cptn. of the SS D/G




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  6 23:49:39 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:49:39 -0800
Subject: SHIP: R/H Yule Ball
Message-ID: <F220qIfQdmEB4HGXAwx00001155@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13751


"<snip>I don't think Hermione is the
temptress kind, luring Ron on with "next time ask me before someone
else does" statement- she is honestly attacking him right back for
having been insensible to her."

I don't think that she was being temptress-y about it, but Ithink that she 
is trying to make a point, not insult Ron. She may have some hidden feelings 
for him, and that could be a part of this statement. Then again, she might 
have been trying to humilite him by letting on that she knew how he felt 
about her. It might have been an unintentional below-the-belt (<g>) hit on 
her part.

One, two, three -crunch-...the world may never know, baby.



========
Morsus "MC" Crustum
-D/H, R/Hr shipper-

"Romeo and Juliet are together in eternity, 40,000 men and women everyday, 
we can be like they are;love of two is one, here but now they're gone; it 
came last night as sadness, it was clear that she couldn't go on; the door 
was open and the wind appeared, the candels blew and then dissapeared; the 
curtians flew and then he appeared; saying 'don't be afraid', and she had no 
fear...."


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 23:49:37 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:49:37 -0000
Subject: Lucius Malfoy (was: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306134536.039916b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <983t2h+upo4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13752

He's powerful, rich, capable, yes.

But if he's anything like his son, he's also dead sexy. *coughs*

Anyway, yes, Lucius may have kept that diary incident from Voldie 
intentionally, knowing Voldie's aversion to failure. 

And basically, it is because he is so powerful, rich, capable, (and 
hot *cough* okay maybe not THAT) that so many people in the Ministry 
FEAR him. Lucius is the kind of person I can imagine ruling by 
intimidation. In Latin, his name means 'brilliant' but it isn't 
necessarily a good light- it could be a blinding beacon of darkness 
that most people find they cannot face head-on. Plus, Fudge LIKES him. 
Fudge is oblivious to Lucius's true (or maybe not so true) nature. 
Which may or may not be evil, as many fanfic writers have explored. 
Third, people *fear* him. Yes, I know, I said it twice, but it's an 
important point. Lucius is an intimidating person. He knows how to 
threaten, and he knows where to threaten. He digs deep and uses 
people's own emotions against them. He is, in a nutshell, a cunning 
person.

- Celeste Chang

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 01:09 PM 3/5/01 -0800, Katie Kearns wrote:
> >He's powerful, he's rich, he's capable. He's also kept up a good 
deal of
> >his evilness even while Voldy was gone.
> 
> One question I have -- Does Voldy know about the CoS/Diary incident?
> He makes no mention of it in his speech.  Perhaps LM would not be so
> much in V's good graces if V knew that he had cravenly tried to 
bring
> him back by "cloning" (via the Diary) rather than searching out the 
real
> mccoy and having to answer for his seeming disloyalty since V 
vanished.
> 
> >He's had the ministry of magic
> >under his thumb -- and probably still has total power over them. 
That's no
> >small thing!
> 
> *Why* does he have so much power over the MoM?  Is he a big
> campaign donor?  Is he president of the National Unforgivable-Curses
> Association?  Does he have more dirt on everyone than Rita Skeeter?
> ("I have in my cloak a LIST...")
> 
> >He even got Dumbledore thrown out as headmaster for a short
> >period of time.
> 
> And now I'm worried that next time he'll get D. ousted for a *long*
> period of time.  (Disclaimer: No rumors that I know of to this 
effect --
> Just my own  personal anxiety about the "talk" Fudge is going to
> have with D.)
> 
> 
> 
>                                                  -- Dave




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Mar  7 00:13:50 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:13:50 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: HPforGU Logo
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAECJDFAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13753

Hello all,

The time is upon us we all can vote to make an important decision. Every
man, woman and child (not forgetting the goat, owl or car) has the chance
to vote and decide on the logo that will be used to declare the Harry
Potter for Grown Ups Internet presence.


I take this opportunity to thank everyone who has deigned logos for us.
Your efforts are much appreciated.


The logos are viewable at the graphics group
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics).
There are two pages of logos to cast your beady eyes over. They are
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logo
s.htm and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logo
s2.htm.

Each of the logos has a number to the left of it. These are the logo
identification numbers, and you will need to remember the number of your
favourite logo so that you can vote for it.


To vote you have to go to the Announcements group
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements). Once there you head
towards the polls section and there you will find the logo poll.  First you
will have to join the Announcements group, if you have not done so already.
Joining the Announcements list will also benefit your life by giving you
information about Harry Potter stuff.

You have until the end of this month (31st March) to cast your vote. There
will be no recounts.


If you have any questions or problems then feel free to contact me and,
hopefully, I will be able to supply you with an answer.

Simon Branford




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Wed Mar  7 01:30:17 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 01:30:17 -0000
Subject: another fun question  - imaginative, funny or otherwise (was earwax? hmmm...
In-Reply-To: <3AA46D4C.B0E32205@nb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9842v9+a1j4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13754

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Angela Boyko <aboyko at n...> wrote:
> > Naama said:
> > So, I thought I'd put it as a question for you guys here - what 
do 
> > you find most imaginative, funny or otherwise exhilirating in HP?
>>
> 
Mmmmm I want a dragon. I've seen the pitfalls and, though they have a 
horrible diet, I still want one. I think we could work on 
vegitarianism for them (FFA - Are you in?). Some early dominance 
work, in that important first fortnight when they are not big enough 
to kill one, would be good too.  

And a wand (not very original but still)

And I LOVE the way the ppl in the pictures run from frame to frame. 
What happens to them in between? Do they have ghoastly images on the 
way, do they disappear? are the pictures hung so closely together 
that they can just jump from one to another (err I think not from the 
description of Ron and Harry being led to Diviniation)

<sigh> I'm sure I will have thought of a whole different lot by 
tommorow. So many options

storm




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Wed Mar  7 01:51:11 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 01:51:11 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <983n1g+hitq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98446f+f9bl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13755

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ourobouros_1999 at y... wrote:
Great Post Amy!

Sorry it's not clear to me from the previous post who said what
> 
"He doesn't only want to kill people, but wants > to take over the 
world and leads an organization of people who want > to help him do 
it (that's the overlord part. To be an overlord, you > need minions), 
overthrow the government, rebuild the world in his own > image, etc." 

poor darling obviously has poor self-esteem and needs lots of 
external reinforcement <g>

> How many people know of his true identity as Tom Marvolo Riddle? 
> Isn't it odd that no one, after his defeat, would write about it or 
> discuss where Lord V came from? Certainly wizards just don't pop 
out > of nowhere. 

I've thought about this before. THe only analalogy I have is with the 
Japanese attitude to thier actions in WW2. Historically in Japan 
school books have been very quite about Japanses actions during WW2.

However, it was reported in Australian papers a couple of weekends 
ago that school books are now being released which referred to the 
Japanese acts as assisting SE asia to through of the chains of 
european domination. The same books deny the existance of the mass 
enslavement and rape of Korean and other women as 'comfort women', 
stating that the women choose this occupation. My point is that it is 
possible to ignore inconveient or uncomfortable information, even if 
it stares you in the face. Japanese society began immeaidately after 
the war to wipe out accounts of thier aggression, 50 years on they 
have completely remodeled thier history.*

If Wizard society is anything like Japanese society in this respect 
(and if Fudge is at all representive it may well be) then it is 
entierly possible they suffer a similar cultural amnesia about 
otherwise well documented events.

Storm

*In case anyone thinks I'm having a shot at the Japanese, I'm not. 
Australia did the same thing in re-writing history regarding its 
polices towards Aboriginal ppl and towards not English migrants (the 
'White Australia' policy). This has begun to change in the past 15 
years in terms of our history books.





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar  7 01:52:56 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 01:52:56 -0000
Subject: Gryffindor Wins! (Quidditch filk)
Message-ID: <98449o+8ipo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13756

Gryffindor Wins! (from PoA, Chap. 15)

(To the tune of Hooray for Hollywood)

Dedicated to Rebecca Boswell

(THE SCENE:  Hogwarts' Quidditch field.  Gryffindor has just
defeated Slytherin, and for the first time in seven years, takes the 
Quidditch Cup)

GRYFFINDOR TEAM (except OLIVER WOOD)
Now, with this season, 
We had a reason 
For the Scarlet to strive to be supreme
Because our Keeper 
Can no more sleep here 
After he ages off the team 
We knew this would be his final chance, 
So we choreographed today's game like it was Flashdance

GRYFFINDOR FANS
Hooray for Ollie Wood! 
Each Gryffindorean just knew he would!
As Fred just  said to Alicia Spinnet 
"I know we'll win it, 
Our Keeper can't be withstood"

TEAM
He's bought us vict'ry  
As we evict the 
Reigning champs of the Slyther-Hood!

FANS
Potter's flight was extra good
He saw nothing in a Dementor's hood
Marcus Flint looked especially measly next to the Weasleys
And Johnson her ground she stood.
Bell played like only Katie could! 

ALL (except WOOD)
                                  Hooray for Ollie Wood!

FANS
It wasn't perty, 
Slytherin played dirty, 
They aimed all their blows below the belt

TEAM
But we did not whine, 
We stiffened our spine, 
We played the cards that we were dealt
And it all went without a glitch
 
ALL (except HARRY and OLIVER)
`Cause at the end Harry snatched the Snitch

TEAM
Hooray for Ollie Wood!  But what will happen if in Hollywood
They direct this scene with Chris Columbus, 
Who'll downward dumb us, 
With a script carved from antique wood? 
It may gross a billion
But if we look Vaudevillian
We'll tell all our friends that it's no damn good! 

ALL (except WOOD)
So let's cheer for Ollie Wood!  
He taught to us the true meaning of brotherhood!
Just watch him overwhelmed and choked up take the Quidditch Cup
Such feeling by all's understood
We'll weep too, there's that likelihood!
Hooray for Ollie 

WOOD
We won, by golly!

ALL (except WOOD)
Hooray for Ollie Wood! 

 - CMC






From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 02:18:35 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 02:18:35 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <98446f+f9bl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9845pr+jv84@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13757

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Snuffles MacGoo" <msmacgoo at o...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., ourobouros_1999 at y... wrote:
> Great Post Amy!

Agreed. :)

<snip>
> > How many people know of his true identity as Tom Marvolo Riddle? 
> > Isn't it odd that no one, after his defeat, would write about it 
or 
> > discuss where Lord V came from? Certainly wizards just don't pop 
> out > of nowhere. 
> 
<snip>

> 
> If Wizard society is anything like Japanese society in this respect 
> (and if Fudge is at all representive it may well be) then it is 
> entierly possible they suffer a similar cultural amnesia about 
> otherwise well documented events.
> 

I think this could be even extended to US society on certain matters, 
or all societies that have done something they currently aren't proud 
of. But this is an imperfect analogy. Wizarding society and 
government was against Voldemort, and doesn't regard itself as 
culpable for his actions. The examples you cited were of past state 
activities, and the guilt societies feel or avoid feeling over what 
their governments did in the past. Voldemort is roundly condemned by 
most wizards, at least in public, and did not become, if I read the 
books correctly, the controller of public opinion/ideology. So I see 
him as more of a rebel/conspirator figure than a head of state. 

What I was trying to get at there was that a)everyone knows Lord V 
went to Hogwarts. b)There is no Lord V in the school records, only 
Tom Riddle c)Why should Dumbledore/those in the know keep quiet about 
his true identity?

Charmian




From margdean at erols.com  Wed Mar  7 02:52:30 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:52:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
References: <983pkn+jdd0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA5A26E.9F6853CB@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13758

Amy Z wrote:
> 
> Charmian posed:
 
> > Is Lord V the evil wizard to end all evil wizards, or are movements
> > like the Death Eaters not unprecedented in the HP world?
> 
> Sometimes he's referred to as the worst dark wizard "in a century,"
> sometimes "ever"; both are probably more hyperbole than verifiable
> fact (how does one quantify Evil Wizardry?).  Suffice it to say he's
> really, really evil and really, really powerful.  I'd imagine someone
> like him, if not as strong, comes along every so often--human nature
> being what it is.

It's mentioned that Dumbledore previously defeated another dark
wizard called Grindelwald.  So apparently they do pop up from
time to time.  Probably with depressing regularity, human nature
being what it is.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From rebrown12 at earthlink.net  Wed Mar  7 02:59:33 2001
From: rebrown12 at earthlink.net (Ruth Brown)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:59:33 -0500
Subject: Voldy untied Harry's hands
Message-ID: <41200133725933610@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13759


  And of course the eternal question.Why did Voldemort untie 
   Harry and give him back his wand?

 

Gwen said:


 Rowling hints that immortality is his ultimate goal, or was when he 
started

 down his path. I think that holds true, but that he will not need 
his

 supporters once he gains what he seeks. Too much of his backstory 
revolves

 around the search for immortality and indestructibility. So I 
definitely

 think that's part of the equation, but at this point, any dark 
arts

 knowledge is something he'll soak up just for its own sake.

 

We have talked about the fact that Voldy is deep into the dark arts and he 
took a great deal of time determining what would be necessary to bring a body to 
his magical self.  What if the process of getting the blood from Harry was 
not enough to make him "solid?"  

 

Maybe he had to kill the person who defeated him in battle in a wizard's 
duel to break the spell and bring him immortality?  Those of you who are 
Star Wars fans, maybe you can see the reverse logic - as Luke had to "defeat" 
Darth Vader to become a Jedi Knight, to whit, Voldy must "defeat" Harry to 
become immortal and all-powerful?  

 

I definitely think this was not so much a mistake as perhaps, something 
required for his rise to power.  This could also be tied into why he had to 
kill James Potter, but not Lily.  James HAD to die, but Lily did 
not... why?

 

--- Ruth E. Brown




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rebrown12 at earthlink.net  Wed Mar  7 03:05:55 2001
From: rebrown12 at earthlink.net (Ruth Brown)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:5:55 -0500
Subject: Aging of Wizards
Message-ID: <4120013373555230@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13760



   Lord Voldemort (born Tom Marvolo Riddle)

      Born c. 1927.  

 

 Now this is interesting. Remember Hagrid was at school with V. -- he 


 might be a couple of years younger but not more than that. So Hagrid 


 is roughly 60 at the time of the books. For some reason, he strikes 


 me as a good bit younger than McGonagall, but apparently he's not (10 


 years = 5 wizard years). Is it just the different personalities?

 

 If they were Muggles, I'd have envisioned Hagrid as maybe 35-40, but 


 McGonagall as 50+.

 

Maybe Giants don't age as humans do?  Muggles and Wizards/Witches are 
all humans, but Hagrid is half-human and giant.  He might be like turtles 
or parrots and age slowly/live a long time.  I think this is fascinating, 
because much of this history could be in Hagrid's memory, but with his 
child-like attitude, it can be hard to realize he knows what has been happening 
for the last 60 years.

 


--- Ruth E. Brown


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar  7 03:10:52 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:10:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HPforGU Logo
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAECJDFAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3AA5A6BB.7CF37C9C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13761

Simon wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> The time is upon us we all can vote to make an important decision.

<yadda, yadda snipped>

I was disappointed that there wasn't an associated "second choice" poll,
because I was terribly torn betwixt nos. 10 and 7. By the way, no. 12
did not come through; 'twas a broken icon.

AND it took forever to get to the files, too, and I had to reconstruct
one of the longer URLs you gave, because when I clicked on the top link
I got the Yahoo "OOPS" page saying there was no group
HPforGrownUps-Graphics. Love that Yahoo, um hmm.

--Amanda

> Every
> man, woman and child (not forgetting the goat, owl or car) has the
> chance
> to vote and decide on the logo that will be used to declare the Harry
> Potter for Grown Ups Internet presence.
>
>
> I take this opportunity to thank everyone who has deigned logos for
> us.
> Your efforts are much appreciated.
>
>
> The logos are viewable at the graphics group
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics).
> There are two pages of logos to cast your beady eyes over. They are
>
> ttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logo
>
> s.htm and
>
> ttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logo
>
> s2.htm.
>
> Each of the logos has a number to the left of it. These are the logo
> identification numbers, and you will need to remember the number of
> your
> favourite logo so that you can vote for it.
>
>
> To vote you have to go to the Announcements group
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements). Once there you
> head
> towards the polls section and there you will find the logo poll.
> First you
> will have to join the Announcements group, if you have not done so
> already.
> Joining the Announcements list will also benefit your life by giving
> you
> information about Harry Potter stuff.
>
> You have until the end of this month (31st March) to cast your vote.
> There
> will be no recounts.
>
>
> If you have any questions or problems then feel free to contact me
> and,
> hopefully, I will be able to supply you with an answer.
>
> Simon Branford
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor




>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
> the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort
> through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
> your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
> to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
> hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Mar  7 03:32:58 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:32:58 -0000
Subject: film characters pictures?
Message-ID: <984a5a+d5ti@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13762

What happened to the pictures of the actors in the film?

Has it been moved to list #10 of the Harry Potter for Grownups group?

Does anyone realize that someone could make a lot of money marketing 
HP products for grownups?

Wish I had some $$$ to invest...

Susan




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Mar  7 04:27:04 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:27:04 -0600
Subject: Ron/Hermione from the viewpoint of a 14 yr. old
References: <983qof+tlnj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA5B898.7550AE65@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13763

Hi --

Alicia  --- please don't lurk anymore!  :--)

AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com wrote:

> Although that particular excerpt
> from the book serves well to illustrate the reasoning behind Ron
> having feelings for Hermione, it does absolutely nothing to further
> the theory of Hermione liking Ron at all.  I believe that Hermione
> acted as any member of the Sisterhood would in such a situation: when
> faced with something she found to be degrading and irrational, she
> vociferously attacked the offender.

Exactly!  And, this is *exactly* how I interpret her reactions to Fleur
(the "Semi-colon Theory" be damned!).  I think she reacts to Fleur in a
very feminist way (and she did this from the *very beginning* -- even
before Ron first made googly eyes at Fleur).  She disliked Fleur from
the get-go, and Fleur's effect on one of her best friends was just icing
on the cake.  Doesn't mean she's jealous of Ron's attentions to Fleur;
it just means that Hermione has no respect for Fleur.

> <snip> He didn't ask her to the Ball in the first place; and for some
> warped reason, he percieved this to be *her* fault, almost.  Or at
> least, that is the way it came out.  He blatantly accused her of
> something that wasn't her fault; as she stated, if he wished to go to
> the Ball with her, he should have asked first.  Not Hermione's fault
> in the least, and Ron was a jackalope for even daring to take his
> frustration out on her.

Not only does she say that if he wanted to go with her, he should have
asked her first.  She's also not saying that she would accept if he did
ask.

> I also don't believe this reaction would have been limited solely to
> Ron; if Harry, Dean, Seamus, or any other male had been in his place
> and taken his actions, Hermione would have chided them in a similar
> manner.

I agree completely!  She is exasperated with both of them for their
reactions to the Veela at the Quidditch World Cup.  It just happens that
for most of the rest of the story (and particularly with respect to the
Yule Ball), Ron acts very churlish.  Harry does not.  If Harry had acted
in the same way that Ron did, he would have also been subjected to
Hermione's vociferous reaction (IMO).

> Although the age-group awkwardness must be taken into consideration,
> remember that Harry and Ron *are* her best friends, and *are* male.
> Hermione is most certainly *not* uncomfortable with the male species,
> and there would be no reason for her to have any qualms about
> blasting Ron's head off into oblivion for treating her in that
> manner.  Although some girls, the ones who have acquaintances that
> are primarily female, might say this out of some sort of romantic
> interest, I highly doubt that Hermione would.

That's what I think too.  I said earlier that I'm speaking from the
perspective of having been a 14 yr old girl myself.  At 14, I had
primarily male friends.  That's been true for me since about age 12 or
so (having more male friends than female friends).  The question was
raised eons ago as to whether it was *odd* for Hermione to have 2 male
best friends.  My answer then was a resounding "no!"  One of my friends
from age 14 was a reader at my wedding, and my best friend since I was
15 was a groomsman.  My male friends have been more consistently a part
of my life by far than my female friends.  I very much identify with
Hermione in that respect, and it's not the least bit strange to me to
think that she wouldn't hesitate to give Ron all holy hell for treating
her poorly.

> I agree with this, in a different sense.  *g*  I'd like to take this
> as, "If you wanted to go so badly with me, you should have asked
> first; and if you dare to blame this all on me next time, you'll be
> so sorry that you'll go groveling to Draco Malfoy for sympathy."

I can agree with this interpretation.  I'd add that it does not mean
that she'd go with Ron; she's just telling him to ask her first if
that's what he wants to do.  She'll consider it.  <g>

> The point is, just because someone feels something for someone doesn't
>
> necessarily mean that the object of the lavished affections feels the
> same, at all.

Well put, Alicia!  Again .... please stop lurking.  You're quite
articulate, and the H/H Cruiseliner needs you.  :--)

> For the sake of saving my fast-sinking shipmates and I, could you
> enlighten me?  Perhaps it comes about from my refusal to read
> anything into R/H and adamance in dissecting the events that could be
> interpreted as H/H, but I really don't see them as being very
> obvious.  On the contrary, I see the current situation as standing:
> Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Harry, Harry likes Cho/no one at
> this moment.

Yep.  I hope to be passing out the lyrics to Farmer in the Dell soon
after everyone finishes OoP.  <vbg>

Thanks also to ship-mate Celeste for speaking up (you didn't talk in
circles at all).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hermitchick at crosswinds.net  Wed Mar  7 05:05:01 2001
From: hermitchick at crosswinds.net (Persephone)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:05:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron/Hermione from the viewpoint of a 14 yr. old
References: <983sko+8c7e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA5C17C.B17071F6@crosswinds.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13764



Celeste Chang wrote:

> Though I'm fifteen, not fourteen, I have to agree with what Alicia has
>
> said- I myself was a girl who grew up associating more with males than
>
> with girls, and while a 'girly' girl of my age would shriek and act
> like a helpless little oh-my-god twit if some boy insulted her, I
> would most definitely make sure he regretted it. *censors further
> violent comments*
>

I have to agree with both of you, I know I'm seventeen but I've never
dated anyone.   I also grew up with the boys and not with other girls,
never could stand most of them (don't you want to strangle some of the
really whiny girls?), still hang out with the guys.  Infact, Friday I
was told that "You're one of the guys" by my friends.  If I some guy
ever insluts me, there's usually hell to pay.  I'm good at getting out
of truble too.

> Hermione is a girl. Like me, she is learning to adopt girlish ways
> for big social events- the usage of the Hair Potion, the special
> attention to appearance- but also like me she is at heart more 'male'
> than a normal girl- more willing to strike out and blow the heads off
> of people who piss her off, more willing to throw a punch at some
> insolent boy rather than shriek. I don't think Hermione is the
> temptress kind, luring Ron on with "next time ask me before someone
> else does" statement- she is honestly attacking him right back for
> having been insensible to her.
>

I'm still learning how to adopt girlish ways for big social events, (I'm
the girl who went to the Christmas formal with a freshman and in a dress
from Hot Topic with full goth makeup).  I think she's pissed that Ron
didn't ask her as soon as they found out about it, so she's being kinda
mean to him to get back at him for ignoring her.  I know I'd be POed if
it happened to me.


And now that I've basically gone in circles and confused myself, I'm

> going to go into lurk mode.
>
> - Celeste Chang

I confuse myself a lot.  it's best to just ignore it, and hope it won't
catch back up with you:)

--
-Kate, 85% obsessed with Harry Potter

"So we reach into the raging chaos, and we pluck some
small glittering thing, and we cling to it, and tell
ourselves it has meaning, and that the world is good,
and we are not evil and we will all go home in the end."
- Lestat, "Tale of the Body Thief" by Anne Rice

Persephone's Lair: http://geocities.com/hermitchick
Harry and Draco Archive: http://geocities.com/harry_and_draco



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar  7 05:21:00 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:21:00 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort alliance with Giants
References: <983n1g+hitq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c0a6c6$66f5e3e0$7214a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13765

In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
<snip>\

 Also, I dont remember Voldy having an alliance with giants.  Did I
> miss something? (Likely, but if anyone could point me to the
> appropriate chapter and verse I will reread.)

Joy:

GoF ch 36 "Extend them (the Giants) the hand of friendship, now, before it
is too late," said Dumbledore, or Voldemort will persuade them, as he did
before, that he alone among wizards will give them their rights and their
freedom."
Doreen






From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 05:34:17 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 05:34:17 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
Message-ID: <984h8q+dsf4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13766

Hello all!

I have been induced to delurk to add my voice once more for my Good 
Ship R/H, although my fellowshipmates B, Moey and Captain Kathy have 
been doing very well so far :-) I have been reading the shipper 
debates avidly and so I have a lot to say, so beware, long post 
coming up :-)!!

I agree and support everything that B, Moey and Captain Kathy have 
said in regards to R/H and the Yule Ball. Ron's remarks were not 
personal but Hermione was aware that the sentiments behind the words 
were. 

Many of the H/H fans see Ron is an open book so it's obvious that he 
likes Hermione, but Hermione is not so easy to read therfore doesn't 
like Ron back. We R/H fans agree that Hermione is not so easy to read 
but the signs she likes Ron back are there, and have been covered in 
detail before so I will not reiterate them now. Well, if Hermione is 
not so easy to decipher, then how do you H/H fans deduce she likes 
Harry instead? Aaahhh, subtext right <vbg>.

I only discovered this wonderful group after Christmas, so I am still 
waiting to hear all about this 'subtext' that emphatically shows that 
Hermione likes Harry not Ron. Also, for FITD, if Ron likes Hermione, 
Hermione likes Harry, and Harry likes Cho/no one/someone outside the 
Trio (if I am correct and that is FITD) then how does that support 
H/H? I always thought that it took two people to make a relationship 
<g> so if Harry doesn't like Hermione back romantically how does FITD 
support H/H? Aaaah, subtext right ;-) I think that H/H fans who 
believe in FITD are saying then is that Harry may not like Hermione 
on the surface, but he loves her in subtext, so eventually he will 
like her back? Seems pretty farfetched to me, since all the books are 
from Harry's POV. As many people have already mentioned, if Harry 
even had an inkling of a romantic notion towards Hermione 
subtextually or otherwise we would have known about it by now and as 
for the future, well please read on <bg>. 

The definition of subtext, implicit and metaphor taken straight from 
Merriam Webster dictionary online is:

Main Entry: sub?text
Pronunciation: 's&b-"tekst
Function: noun
Date: 1950
: the implicit or metaphorical meaning (as of a literary text)
- sub?tex?tu?al /"s&b-'teks-ch&-w&l, -ch&l/ adjective 

Main Entry: im?plic?it
Pronunciation: im-'pli-s&t
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin implicitus, past participle of implicare
Date: 1599
1 a : capable of being understood from something else though 
unexpressed : IMPLIED <an implicit assumption>.

Main Entry: met?a?phor
Pronunciation: 'me-t&-"for also -f&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French metaphore, from 
Latin metaphora, from Greek, from metapherein to transfer, from meta- 
+ pherein to bear -- more at BEAR
Date: 1533
1 : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting 
one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a 
likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly : 
figurative language -- compare SIMILE
2 : an object, activity, or idea treated as a metaphor : SYMBOL 2
- met?a?phor?ic /"me-t&-'for-ik, -'f?r-/ or met?a?phor?i?cal /-i-k&l/ 
adjective
- met?a?phor?i?cal?ly /-i-k(&-)lE/ adverb 

So, if 'subtext' means 'implied' or 'figurative language', where in 
Books I to IV is it implied or figuratively written that Hermione 
likes Harry and Harry likes Hermione romantically (we all agree that 
H and H like each other as friends ;-))? 

Book 1: before H and H drink Snapes potion, 'Hermione's lip trembled 
and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him'. One 
could argue that the 'subtext' for this little demonstration is that 
Hermione likes Harry therfore she throws her arms around him. But of 
course not, H/H fans hastily say! They are only eleven years old! So, 
this is not a good example of subtext <g>. 

So how about the infamous Kiss at the end of Book IV, 'she did 
something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek'. 
H/H fans have pointed out the JKR has stressed this kiss by adding 
the line 'she did something she had never done before'. Well, 
according to the definition of subtext I found, that is not implied, 
that is stated outright and we faithful Harry Potter fans know that 
she has never kissed Harry on the cheek before. So, what is the 
subtext in The Kiss? Aaaahhh, her overwhelming love for Harry 
carefully hidden, only implied, burst forth due to the anxiety and 
the dire circumstances he faces so that Hermione couldn't help 
herself, she KISSED him! I read some posts earlier were I believe H/H 
fans polled teenagers to get their take on the KISS and I also 
believe that the results of THAT poll were unanimous that Hermione 
and Harry liked each other, or at least that Hermione like Harry. 
Well, I haven't been a teenager for quite some time (I am thirty and 
proud of it ;-)) but I do remember vividly what it felt like to be 
fourteen and IMO I would never kiss the boy I liked on the cheek 
especially if I wasn't sure if he returned my feelings (I believe we 
all, H/H fans included, agree that Harry doesn't like Hermione 
romantically, with an added 'yet' for the benefit of H/H fans <g>). 
So, once again the kiss can be interpreted in many ways just as all 
things shippy can, based on everyones recollections of being a teen :)

The point that I am trying to make of all my rambles is that 
EVERYTHING that points to a particular ship can be interpreted 
differently by the other ship based on personal experience. What we 
R/H fans say is that what we interpret has been bourne out by JKR 
herself <vbg>. 

I believe it was Penny that mentioned that the 'there's something 
going on between Ron and Hermione' comment of JKR's can be 
interpreted as Ron liking Hermione, but Hermione not returning the 
feelings. Moey pointed that the only thing one can interpret 
differently in this statement is the 'something', but the 'between' 
most definitely means:

Main Entry: 1be?tween
Pronunciation: bi-'twEn
Function: preposition
Etymology: Middle English betwene, preposition & adverb, from Old 
English betwEonum, from be- + -twEonum (dative plural) (akin to 
Gothic tweihnai two each); akin to Old English twA two
Date: before 12th century
1 a : by the common action of : jointly engaging <shared the work 
between the two of them> <talks between the three -- Time> b : in 
common to : shared by <divided between his four grandchildren>

This definition and common sense tells us that between means 'jointly 
engaging' and 'shared by'. Since the two people in JKR's statement 
are Hermione and Ron (Harry is NOT mentioned, subtext or no subtext 
<vbg>) they are 'jointly engaging' and 'sharing' in the 'something 
going'. Now as an expert in subtext, I am sure that Penny agrees that 
the subtext of 'something going on' is the implication that Hermione 
and Ron have romantic feelings. Please do not launch forth an all out 
attack on me for clarifying JKR's statement H/H fans, because all I 
am pointing out is that there really is no other way to 
interpret 'between' if the 'between' being referred to is the one in 
the English language <g>! So if H/H fans can follow the logic of my 
ramble so far, they will have to agree that JKR is saying that 
Hermione DOES have romantic feelings (if we agree that 
the 'something' being referred to here is 'romantic feelings' <g>) 
for Ron, but Ron, typical boy, is clueless.

Penny wrote:
Well, she made alot of pre-GoF statements that had everyone utterly &
completely convinced that Harry & Cho would date each other in GoF.
She's quite good IMO at making public statements that appear to be 
clear
but are, in reality, rather ambiguous.  I interpret what she said as
being clear only that Ron doesn't know what's going on yet.  There's
more than one spin to be put on virtually everything JKR says -- 
that's
all I'm saying.  :--)

Well if the pre-GoF statements that Penny is referring to are the 
ones were JKR stated that the Trio would 'fall in love with the wrong 
people' or that they 'would date the wrong person' then that has been 
bourne out in GoF since none of us seriously believe that Hermione is 
going to actually fall in love with Krum, Ron with Padma/Fleur or 
Harry with Parvati/Cho, the obvious 'wrong people' in GoF. I don't 
remember any chat/interview, other than the one mentioned above, 
where JKR stated or implied that Harry would date Cho, so if you have 
a link or the name of this article where this was said, I would 
really love to read it please ;-) 

JKR may be 'ambiguous' about things such as whether any of the Trio 
will die or who will actually die, but most everything else that I 
remember she has said in the chats and interviews I have read has 
been bourne out in the books so far. JKR said that the hormones would 
start to kick in in GoF, and they have (though not to the degree we 
shippers hoped for <vbg>), there would deaths in the later books, 
starting in Book IV and there have been. She has been straight 
forward about H/H so far as well. In an earlier Scholastic interview 
(Feb. 3, 2000):
http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm 

Q: Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he 
going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley?  
JKR: In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not 
Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time 
for him to change his mind. ;-)  

Now, in Book IV, it has been bourne out that Harry does decide he 
likes a girl, and that girl everyone knows is Cho Chang. JKR also 
says that he is only fourteen, so there's plenty of time for him to 
change his mind, implying that he will fall out of love with Cho and 
fall in love with either Hermione or Ginny, the only two girls 
mentioned in the question. 

In the Barnes and Noble chat, she says that there is 'something going 
on between Ron and Hermione' meaning that Hermione DOES return Ron's 
feelings (if you agree that the word 'between' means 'jointly 
engaging in' <vbg>). In an audio interview prior to the release of 
GoF, if you go to the last question, JKR says:

"Oh, I like this one. 'Do Harry and Hermione have a date?' No. Harry 
and Hermione are very platonic. But I won't speak for anyone else, 
nudge nudge wink wink."

You can hear this interview at:

http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/exrad/991020.jkrowling.ram

Now, this inteview was held a short time before GoF, and you have to 
agree that JKR was straight forward about Harry and Hermione not 
having a date in GoF <vbg>. By saying that Harry and Hermione are 
very platonic she does not rule out the possibility of of there 
always being platonic, but that would be like putting words in her 
mouth, since the only thing open to interpretation is the "but I 
won't speak for anyone else, nudge nudge wink wink". That I take to 
mean that the 'anyone else' she refers to is Ron and that is again 
bourne out by his reactions in GoF (I believe the common consensus is 
that Ron DOES like Hermione) and her 'something going on between' 
comment later on. The 'anyone else' could refer to Krum, but in all 
honesty it doesn't seem likely she would refer to a character that we 
haven't met yet, since this interview occured before GoF. These are 
the only common sense interpretations of this statement <g>.

Going back to the Feb. 3, 2000 chat, since it is apparent that there 
is 'something going on between' Ron AND Hermione as of Book IV, and 
Harry and Hermione are very platonic as of Book IV, common sense 
indicates that the only one left is Ginny (since Cedric's death rules 
out Cho, and JKR has said that Ginny will play more of a role in Book 
V <g>). That is unless anyone thinks that Hermione can be in love 
with TWO people at the same time or that JKR, the creator of all 
things HP who made these statements, is shall we say, less than 
truthful <g>? These statements IMO can only be open to only so much 
interpretation no matter how one might wish it otherwise (but of 
course, I am sure H/H fans will have no difficulty interpreting these 
differently *smile*). Not ALL words in the English language can be 
interpreted differently. Some words such as 'between' and 'platonic' 
really have only one meaning <vbg>.

So, regarding RELATIONSHIPS, JKR has been pretty straight forward and 
hasn't really said anything that has not been bourne out in the books 
so far, no matter how you interpret it (again there are only so many 
ways one can interpret certain words such as 'platonic' or 'between' 
<vbg>). R/H is the way JKR is headed IMO, and since none of us REALLY 
believe that the canon HP is a soap opera (as much as we enjoy HP 
fanfics of this genre ;-)), it serves no purpose for JKR to build up 
R/H and then switch to H/H post-Hogwarts, as some H/H fans believe 
will happen. Teenagers in real life may not form attachments as 
teenagers that last into adulthood, but HP is NOT the real world, so 
R/H lasting into adulthood is a real possibility <g>. But despair not 
H/H fans, there are always fanfics :-)! 

Now, having said all this, I know that I have in no way swayed the 
truly dedicated H/H fan who sees subtexts in HP <g>, and my ramble is 
NOT meant to sway anyone, it is only meant to (hopefully) clarify why 
we R/H fans feel that R/H is the way the books will go EVENTUALLY. HP 
is not a romance so none of us expect a declaration of love between 
R/H or H/G any time soon (perhaps only a little paragraph in a 
summary JKR may write at the end of Book VII, or just hints are good 
enough for us, despite the lovely fanfics archived on Sugar Quill 
Island <vbg>). Nor do we think that R/H or H/G when they eventually 
DO get together will break up and not last. That is not in keeping 
with the tone of the HP books, however 'unrealistic' that may be and 
despite all the fanfics out there <vbg>.

I am sure only the truly dedicated shipper will even attempt to read 
this or have gotten this far ;-). Now I will go back into lurkdom and 
good ol' Sugar Quill Island, were the breeze blows only to further 
advance the Good Ship R/H with the SS H/G alongside. 

P. S. please H/H fans, don't take my words out of context, they are 
just my responses to the ongoing debate and meant to be taken in a 
light hearted fashion <g>. I feel I have said all I can and have 
spent WAY too much time on this post, so any further communications I 
will leave to my capable shipmates <vbg>. Real life calls!

Disclaimer: Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, these are 
just mine :--)

Bouncer Firoza of the Good Ship R/H :-)




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar  7 06:24:52 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:24:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort & Tom's school things
References: <983pkn+jdd0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009201c0a6cf$54c4d240$7214a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13767


<SNIP>

Dumbledore, Harry, Lucius (he knows now, if he wasn't 100% sure what
the diary was when he passed it on to Ginny, 'cause Dumbledore warned
him against "giving away any more of Tom Riddle's school
things")...anyone else?
<SNIP>
 Amy Z

Do you think that we will be seeing more of Tom Riddle's school things
"popping up" in future books? Was this a "hint" of stuff to come?
Doreen






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Mar  7 05:58:37 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 05:58:37 -0000
Subject: Order of Merlin, First Class Acceptance Speech (part 2)
References: <B6CB03B0.D5BE%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <026d01c0a6cb$bdf9a3c0$e83770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 13768

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

<< The Ministry of Magic proudly awards the Order of Merlin, First Class, to
<snip> [list of moderators]

John Celine Dion Crazy Ivan Walton said:

<<<::approaches podium flanked by the other Mods, grabs the microphone and
 pulls off coat to reveal the Celine Dion drag-clad Russian Cabin Boy::

 Thank you, thank you, thank you, there's a whole team behind us, I'd like
to thank the people at YahooGroups for constant amusement; our Manager,
Holotta
Lafs; our Medical team, led by the Dishy Dr Branford, soon to appear on ER
[oohs and aahs from crowd] yeah yeah, calm down. I'd also like to thank our
house-elves and my personal Secret Secluded Sex Room Slaves. (aside: What? I
can't say that onlist? Damn...) I will now do a charming Medley of Caius'
Filks. Thank you and good night. ::hands microphone over::>>>

*****

Flying Ford Anglia grabs the microphone and tosses aside velvet cape and
hairnet to reveal a capacious floor-length gown of pink silk (borrowed from
the Fat Lady) and a hairdo of Titian ringlets.  Waits for John to stop
catterwauling his way through Caius' back-catalogue... looks at watch...taps
foot....grows attractive but unruly beard...

Days later, he takes the podium:

"Dear, dear friends, listees and multiplying acquaintances, I'm filling up,
honest to goodness.  But, if I could just mention a few people.. [unfurls
huge roll of parchment].... it isn't *just* us Moderators you know.  As my
ladyboy friend here hinted, there are a gaggle of other notable Mugwumps
working behind the scenes to make your Potter obessession as rumple-free as
possible.  Allow me to expand:

Apart from the hardy scrutineering skills and other talents of the
aforementioned Dr Simon Branford, we should mention the legal observations
of Madam Tandy from the Department of Magical Law and the mysterious
technical wizardry of Dr Kippes of the Sub-Committee for Plugs and
Batteries.  Then there is Mistress Ebony - Ships' Counsellor and co-editress
of our (coming soon) newsletter - who refuses to wear the Deanna Troi
outfit, and who can blame her?   And, of course, special mention must go out
to Keeper of the Canon, Lexicon Maestro, Professor Steve Vander Ark.

We are also thankful for the occasional use of the magical eye and wit of
Aberforth's Goat and the bodice-ripping assistances of Mistress Estes (wife
of Randemort) and Mistress McNie in our FAQ dungeons  [dabs eyes with
lace-edged hankie].   Oh...and how could we do less than give hearty thanks
to the misty ministrations of Catlady de Los Angeles and Gypsy Caine in the
castle chatroom and to Madam Joywitch in the art of cauldron-stirring and
erstwhile chasing of the weekly inscriptions?  Finally, and by no means
least, a 'big up' to my Mother, who sewed all the sequins on my
underskirt... yo, Momma!"

Speech over, Flying Ford Anglia joins the Celine Dion Cabin Boy in a beery
rendition of "Sisters Are Doing It For Themselves," which brings the crowd
out of their trance-like stupor.  Behind them, a frowning Madam Linsenmayer
is seen holding up a placard, bearing the glowing words: "OFF TOPIC!"
Looking sheepish, all exuant to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join all the other list
members who have obediently joined that group so that they can post
off-topic remarks there rather than here ... or risk a very nasty scalding
under the fierce headlights of Flying Lord Angliamort...

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar  7 06:47:32 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:47:32 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HPforGU Logo
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAECJDFAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <00a801c0a6d2$7dfdc560$7214a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13769

Simon

#12 did not show up on my browser. Is this a problem for anyone else?
Doreen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon" <simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk>
To: "HPforGU" <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 6:13 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HPforGU Logo


Hello all,

The time is upon us we all can vote to make an important decision. Every
man, woman and child (not forgetting the goat, owl or car) has the chance
to vote and decide on the logo that will be used to declare the Harry
Potter for Grown Ups Internet presence.


I take this opportunity to thank everyone who has deigned logos for us.
Your efforts are much appreciated.


The logos are viewable at the graphics group
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics).
There are two pages of logos to cast your beady eyes over. They are
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logo
s.htm and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logo
s2.htm.

Each of the logos has a number to the left of it. These are the logo
identification numbers, and you will need to remember the number of your
favourite logo so that you can vote for it.


To vote you have to go to the Announcements group
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements). Once there you head
towards the polls section and there you will find the logo poll.  First you
will have to join the Announcements group, if you have not done so already.
Joining the Announcements list will also benefit your life by giving you
information about Harry Potter stuff.

You have until the end of this month (31st March) to cast your vote. There
will be no recounts.


If you have any questions or problems then feel free to contact me and,
hopefully, I will be able to supply you with an answer.

Simon Branford


_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join
now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/







From jackie_martinson at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 07:11:19 2001
From: jackie_martinson at yahoo.com (Jackie Martinson)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:11:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Voldemort Questions
Message-ID: <20010307071119.80201.qmail@web13103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13770

Hello. I'm new. I just got done sifting through the
past several posts. And I have acquainted myself with
the files, so as far as I know, I understand
everything. I'll just jump right in and offer my
opinions on Voldemort - 



> 
> 1. What is Voldemort's primary motivation?  To live
forever?  To 
rid 
> the world of the non-pureblood (I know, he doesn't
qualify 
> himself--racism knows no logic)?  Sheer lust for
power?
> 

 I believe that Lord Voldemort's motivation is to
avenge his mother. I'm aware it's an unusual theory,
but it seems in cannon that it's a real sore spot for
him; people's hang-ups tend to fuel their obsessions.


> 2. Can he be killed?

 Having Harry's blood should have something to do with
it, I would imagine. Avada Kedavra obviously has no
effect on him, and it's the strongest spell, so that
leads one to think that a muggle way is needed. Either
that or a potion of some sort, but that's a bit
anti-climactic, don't you think?

> 3. How will having been restored by Harry's blood
affect him?

 Well, Dumbledore's over anylized "triumphant look" is
a big pointer to *something*. I cannot imagine that it
makes him any weaker; what kind of evil lord could
overlook something that big?

> 4. Does he have an heir, and does he want one?

 It's a real possibility. I would think that one of
the many young Slytherins would qualify. Draco is the
most popular candidate.

> 5. Is he your typical Evil Overlord who repeatedly
makes 
unbelievably 
> dumb mistakes, or are we underestimating him?

 Well, I hardly think he has made any dumb mistakes
yet, so you would be underestimating him to think he
would. There is the bit about giving Harry his wand
back, but how was he to know the wand had the other
feather in it? 


Jackie Martinson


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 08:51:43 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (~*Vicki Granger*~)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:51:43 +1100
Subject: Australia Radio - Radio National (ABC) JKR interview
Message-ID: <F207WfkxERL3kxs4rxw0000170b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13771

Apparently just a few minutes ago a JKR interview on ABC radio - Radio 
National (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/). My dad was trying to reach me on the 
phone but I was on the internet... Does anyone have a transcript, tape of 
it? Can anyone find the info on the site? I'm searching for a *mention* of 
JKR but I can't find anything!!!!

========

~*Vicki Granger*~
FanFiction.Net Author
Hermione Granger in Harry_Potter_RPG2
113% Obsessed with Harry Potter
~*~MeMbEr Of EvIl ClUb~*~
:>(*)<: Reserve Seeker :>(*)<:
Proud Ravenclaw

"Oh, think nothing of it. I love getting free snogs from women on the verge 
of a nervous breakdown who are using me to piss off their fiancees." 
--Napolean Jones ("Harry Potter and the Show That Never Ends" by Lori)

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 09:02:27 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (~*Vicki Granger*~)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:02:27 +1100
Subject: Rowling Interview False Alert... Sorry :) Update...
Message-ID: <F28dIBirXXeQM7gyoPB000017ee@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13772

I managed to just catch the last 10mins... It was the show 'Encounter' and 
in the credits it said that it had some disscussion about HP and excerpts 
from the Audio Books (Fry does a bad job with Hermione's voice... otherwise 
a great reading!) but no actual JKR... I'll post the transcript of on topic 
parts asap...

========

~*Vicki Granger*~
FanFiction.Net Author
Hermione Granger in Harry_Potter_RPG2
113% Obsessed with Harry Potter
~*~MeMbEr Of EvIl ClUb~*~
:>(*)<: Reserve Seeker :>(*)<:
Proud Ravenclaw
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Wed Mar  7 09:12:45 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 04:12:45 EST
Subject: Australia Radio - Radio National (ABC) JKR interview
Message-ID: <44.be34d02.27d7558d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13773

>Does anyone have a transcript, tape of it? Can anyone find the info on the 
site? I'm searching for a *mention* of  JKR but I can't find anything!!!!

>From the look of things, ABC Australia will most likely provide a transcript 
/ tape in the near future.  No Transcript yet - but should be found at 
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/relig/enc/index/default.htm in a month or so.

There was readings of Philosopher's Stone on ABC Encounter 4/03/01  (Sunday, 
repeated Wednesday)

Details at: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/relig/enc/promo.htm

Nick



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 11:41:04 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 11:41:04 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <982u7f+m8mv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9856og+a8qg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13774

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > I disagree.  I don't think she was punishing Hermione. From Mrs. 
> > Weasley's 
> > > point of view, if the article was correct, then *two* of her 
> > children stood a 
> > > chance of being hurt.  I think she was just reacting like a mother 
> > would.  
> > > 
> > ____
> > 
> > Sorry. I'm with Ebony, I don't buy that at all. She WAS punishing 
> > Hermione, for goodness sake she pointedly gave the girl a 
> substandard 
> > present, and glared at her, and was cold to her, and so on. I just 
> > think she was punishing her for a percieved maltreatment of Harry, 
> > and not for any other reason. Like I've said before, Mrs. Weasley 
> > loves Harry, is protective of him, and doubtless thinks that with 
> all 
> > the loss in his life, it would be a sad thing indeed if his first 
> > girlfriend stomped all over his heart with hobnailed boots. 
> > 
> > This in no way supports any particular ship, either, IMHO. I simply 
> > happen to believe that Mrs. Weasley cares about Harry, is protective 
> > of him, that this speaks very well of her and her family, and that 
> > she is not the type of person to go around being nasty to teenage 
> > girls over things they cannot help. We all already agree that Ron 
> > likes Hermione anyway. That theory needs no extraneous support.
> > 
> > Cassandra,
> 
> I agree with you completely here.  I love Molly to death - she's a 
> loving mother and a fierce protector, but in this instance, I think 
> she was protecting Harry, not Ron or Ginny.  In Molly's case, she 
> tends sometimes to be affected by star power *coughLockhartcough*.  I 
> think she just read the article, made the mistake of taking Skeeter at 
> her word, and reacted out of her protective feelings for Harry.  She 
> was very cold to Hermione, and I think that it reveals clearly that 
> Molly doesn't have the same familial feelings for Hermione that she 
> does for Harry, which I think is more hurtful to Hermione than her 
> believing Skeeter's drivel, as many people have been taken in by 
> Skeeter in the past.  I'm guessing, though, that Hermione is going to 
> become more a part of her life, and hopefully eventually she will come 
> to love and accept Hermione as much as she does Harry.  

Somebody here mentioned Molly's mother hen instincts. I think that's what at the base of 
Molly's "favoritism". Its not so much that she likes Hermione less, but that Harry, because 
he is an orphan, awakens maternal feelings that Hermione, who has a normal happy home, 
doesn't.

Naama




From simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk  Wed Mar  7 12:43:03 2001
From: simon.branford at hertford.ox.ac.uk (Simon)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:43:03 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HPforGU Logo
In-Reply-To: <3AA5A6BB.7CF37C9C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEDFDFAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 13775

Amanda: "By the way, no. 12 did not come through; 'twas a broken icon."

Number 12 is no longer in the competition. The pages displaying the logos
have been changed accordingly. Note that number 12 has been removed, but it
still appears on the poll. This is because for me to change anything on the
poll would delete all votes currently cast in the poll.


Amanda: "AND it took forever to get to the files, too, and I had to
reconstruct one of the longer URLs you gave, because when I clicked on the
top link I got the Yahoo "OOPS" page saying there was no group
HPforGrownUps-Graphics. Love that Yahoo, um hmm."

The files are on the graphics group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics
Go to Files and then Logos and then the two files are logos.htm and
logos2.htm
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logos.htm
groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logos2.htm

Voting is on the Announcements list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements
The poll itself is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements/surveys?id=584551


Hope this answers the queries.


Simon
--
Decide on the logo to represent this group. Details at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/13753
Voting closes at the end of March.





From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar  7 13:18:41 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:18:41 -0600
Subject: Lucius Malfoy (was: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 33 - The Death Eaters)
References: <006b01c0a5b6$9ed405a0$5674d63f@oemcomputer> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306134536.039916b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3AA63531.89B2539D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13776

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:

> One question I have -- Does Voldy know about the CoS/Diary incident?
> He makes no mention of it in his speech.  Perhaps LM would not be so
> much in V's good graces if V knew that he had cravenly tried to bring
> him back by "cloning" (via the Diary) rather than searching out the
> real mccoy and having to answer for his seeming disloyalty since V
> vanished.

I didn't get the impression that Lucius was trying to bring back a
shadow Voldemort. I thought he was sowing the seeds for the Chamber's
reopening, leading to Dumbledore's removal as headmaster, thus
substantially weakening the Good Side. [Especially if Dumbledore is
somehow "connected" to Hogwarts, a la Charles DeLint's fiction.]

Removing Dumbledore is a Major Thing, since he was apparently a major
obstacle to Voldemort before. I looked upon this whole thing as Lucius
serving his master well in absentia, and who would, when V did reappear,
be jumping up and down saying, "Master, I got Dumbledore out of the way
for you! I did it! Wasn't that good, master?" Etc.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Wed Mar  7 13:40:39 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:40:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: not so long response (was Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR)
References: <984h8q+dsf4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002501c0a70c$33a0db80$e579d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13777


----- Original Message -----
From: <firoza10 at yahoo.com>

I'm leaving most of this post alone in that the R/H'ers and the H/H'ers
obviously disagree in the interpretation of various passages of the books
and interviews.  My one commmnet is that H/H is not just wishful thinking on
our part any more than R/H is wishful thinking on your part.  JKR could go
either or no way on this issue.

I do however take issue with this statement:

you wrote:

 R/H is the way JKR is headed IMO, and since none of us REALLY
believe that the canon HP is a soap opera (as much as we enjoy HP
fanfics of this genre ;-)), it serves no purpose for JKR to build up
R/H and then switch to H/H post-Hogwarts, as some H/H fans believe
will happen.

My comment:

Why not? There are loads of reasons why she might do R/H and then tear them
assunder...come on use your imagination and think of the great dramatic and
not necessarily soapish dramatic potential there.  Including but not limited
to exploring feelings of loss and betrayal and individuals deciding to do
what is good for them vs. what is good for the wizard community as a whole.
We can't possibly know what JKR has up her sleeve as far as relationships
and their repercussions.   I see no reason for your confidence that while
OBHWF (one big happy weasley family) might happen, why it necessarily will
be preserved.

Your comment:
Teenagers in real life may not form attachments as
teenagers that last into adulthood, but HP is NOT the real world, so
R/H lasting into adulthood is a real possibility <g>. But despair not
H/H fans, there are always fanfics :-)!

my comment:
Yes it is a possibility but so is H/H. And I'd say the chances of either or
neither are equal.

you comment:
Nor do we think that R/H or H/G when they eventually
DO get together will break up and not last. That is not in keeping
with the tone of the HP books, however 'unrealistic' that may be and
despite all the fanfics out there <vbg>.


My comment:
Again Why not? Could you predict the tone of GoF from the previous books.
There are still 3 massive books out there to be written.  I think you give
wayb too little credit to JKR's imagination.  No, romance is not the prime
theme of these books, but I think it will play a role if even a rather minor
one.  But since there is just the beginnings of evidence for these
relationships to happen at all, how can you predict that once these
relationships (that you are so sure of) form they will last forever?



carole








From rhodhry at yahoo.no  Wed Mar  7 14:11:28 2001
From: rhodhry at yahoo.no (rhodhry at yahoo.no)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 14:11:28 -0000
Subject: Scholastic-editor on the Sorceror's Stone
Message-ID: <985fig+8g33@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13778

While it appears to be an originally relatively dated item, the Harry 
Potter-galleries apparently consider it news.  Also, in my half year 
or so on this group, I do not recall seeing this mentioned before:  
Arthur Levine speaks on the translation of "Harry Potter and the 
Philosopher's Stone" into "Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone".

http://www.hpgalleries.com/c117.htm

My apologies if this has indeed been mentioned previously.

Regards
Christian Stub?




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Wed Mar  7 14:20:04 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 14:20:04 -0000
Subject: Using the Diary (was Lucius Malfoy) 
In-Reply-To: <3AA63531.89B2539D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <985g2k+9i4t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13779

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I didn't get the impression that Lucius was trying to bring back a
> shadow Voldemort. I thought he was sowing the seeds for the 
Chamber's
> reopening, leading to Dumbledore's removal as headmaster, thus
> substantially weakening the Good Side. <snip> I looked upon this 
whole thing as 
Lucius
> serving his master well in absentia, and who would, when V did 
reappear,
> be jumping up and down saying, "Master, I got Dumbledore out of the 
way
> for you! I did it! Wasn't that good, master?" Etc.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
But his motives in using the diary and opening the Chamber had nothing 
to do with paving the way for Voldemort to return. In Ch. 18 of CoS, 
we have the following:

"'A clever plan,' said Dumbledore in a level voice, still staring Mr. 
Malfoy straight in the eye. 'Because if Harry here'--Mr. Malfoy shot 
Harry a swift, sharp look--'and his friend Ron hadn't discovered this 
book, why--Ginny Weasley might have taken all the blame. No one would 
ever have been able to prove she hadn't acted of her own free 
will....'
"Mr. Malfoy said nothing. His face was suddenly masklike.
"'And imagine,' Dumbledore went on, 'what might have happened then.... 
The Weasleys are one of our most prominent pure-blood families. 
Imagine the effect on Arthur Weasley and his Muggle Protection Act, if 
his own daughter was discovered attacking and killing 
Muggle-borns.... Very fortunate the diary was discovered, and Riddle's 
memories wiped from it. Who knows what the consequences might have 
been otherwise...."

I believe Malfoy arranged the whole thing as a political ploy to shoot 
down the Muggle Protection Act, dicredit Dumbledore, and possibly get 
a Headmaster who will support banning Muggle-born students again.

Gwen




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Mar  7 15:12:41 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:12:41 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Announcements List is up & running (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AA64FE9.A996618@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13780

Hi everyone --

Your Moderator Team has been hard at work, looking for ways to reduce
message volume and keep the main group friendly & organized.

We've set up another sister Yahoogroup -- the HP4GU - Announcements
list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

This list is intended for those who want to receive announcements about
HP news, book release dates, fanfic plugs by the author, notification of
new merchandise, as well as periodic summaries of what the main group
has been discussing (including those members who cannot cope with the
high posting rate on the main list).

Please note that we are requiring the types of announcements that you
see listed below be made *only* to the Announcements List.  This will
reduce message volume on the main group.  The only messages that will be
duplicated will be the ADMIN messages posted to the main group and
copied to the Announcements list.

To manage the volume on this list, it is a moderated group.  This means
that one of the Moderators on the Moderator Team must approve your
message before it gets sent out to the list.

The following announcements are permitted (not an exhaustive list -
please check with the Moderators if you are unsure about your message):

*** The HPforGrownUps Newsletter (edited by Jeralyn and Ebony)

*** ADMIN messages from the Moderator Team (copies of those posted to
the main group)

*** Announcements of chat room sessions

*** Announcements of new discussion summaries posted to the main list

*** Plugs of fanfiction (one plug per chapter by the author)

*** Plugs of HP-related events (including regional Members' meetings)

*** Plugs of new HP websites or of new HP information on other websites

*** News releases, with links (this should include things related to the
Warner Brothers' movie)

*** Fun HP links, such as Sorting Hat quizzes

*** Alerts to new HP merchandise

*** JKR sightings; JKR events (book signings, tours, TV appearances,
chats, etc.)

*** Information on HP fan clubs

Again, we encourage everyone to join this group as well.  The message
volume should remain relatively low & focused (because the Moderators
must approve each message, you can be assured that the subject heading
will be relevant!).

Please remember that beginning March 12th, fanfic plugs, merchandise
sightings, news links and the like need to be posted *only* to the
Announcements list.  This message will be repeated several times over
the next few weeks to be sure everyone is aware of the changes.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team







From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Mar  7 15:15:44 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:15:44 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Spoilers for the JKR Schoolbooks (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AA650A0.97D4A322@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13781

Hi everyone --

The Moderator Team has decided to require spoiler warnings & spoiler
space for discussion of the schoolbooks to be released next Monday
(March 12th).  These 2 books are: Quidditch Through the Ages and
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.

For those of you unfamiliar with spoiler warnings, etc. -- here's a
brief review.  Put something like the following as your subject heading:
Quidditch book (SPOILER WARNING).  Include a minimum of 15 lines of
spoiler space before typing your message.  If you are replying, be sure
to include spoiler space and put your reply *under* the part that you
are replying to (ensuring plenty of spoiler space).  Here's how it
should look:

After your greeting, type the following

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

This will allow anyone who inadvertently opens your message to avoid
seeing any text.

Again, this ADMIN message will be sent out daily through the end of next
week.  We are currently thinking that spoilers should stay in place
about 2 weeks from the release date of March 12th.  You will be notified
when spoilers are no longer required.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team






From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Mar  7 15:10:52 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:10:52 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: OT messages to move to the OTChatter List (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AA64F7C.E7B1557B@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13782

Hi everyone --

Starting with March 12th, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup. This is in order to make it easier to
sort through messages and reduce overall message volume on this list.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

You will need to join this list, but as with any yahoogroup, you may set
your subscription options to (a) individual emails, (b) digests or (c)
webview only.  There are about 60 or so members over there already, and
the message volume promises to be high.  So, if you might not care much
about OT posts or care only now & again, the webview option might be a
good choice.

On this OT-Chatter list, you may discuss anything unrelated to Harry
Potter (subject to the rule against inflammatory topics - see below),
and you should, in addition, discuss the following
HP-related things on this list rather than the main HPforGrownups list
(this is *not* an exhaustive list):

*** Fanfic recommendations (recommending/discussing a fanfic by someone
else - unless
it can be tied to canon)

*** Listings of HP merchandise collections

*** Answering a roll call (e.g. for the H/H Cruiseliner or the Good Ship
R/H)

*** Detailing your results on a HP Quiz or Sorting Hat test

*** Short, fun posts, such as 'Tom Swifties'

*** Shipper Debates not supported by examples from canon

*** Opinions on HP artwork, book covers and other paraphernalia

*** Definitions or explanations of British words, phrases and traditions
related to HP

***  Exchanges of cultural information between the Americans and the
Brits

*** Anything that you would preface with "This is slightly OT but ..."

We wish this area of the club to remain friendly and welcoming, so the
Moderators will step in if any thread appears to be veering in a
contentious direction.   Examples of prohibited subjects include
politics and The Holocaust.

This message will be resent every day for the next 2 weeks.  If you've
read it once, there will be no need to re-read it.  We just want to be
sure that everyone gets the message.  Don't be surprised if you get an
e-howler (or at least a friendly reminder) from one of the Moderators if
you violate the OT policy.

Thanks for listening (more ADMIN messages to come -- please continue to
read them as they are important).

Penny
The Moderator Team




From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Wed Mar  7 15:35:27 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:35:27 -0800 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] R/H ship?
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BE87@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 13783

Just a quick *wave* to Ruth!  She's a longtime friend of mine and I got to
learn about her HP love this past weekend and told her she had to come over
here.  Glad you made it!
 
Meredith

-----Original Message-----
From: Ruth Brown [mailto:rebrown12 at earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:21 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] R/H ship?



My first post, so forgive any mishaps, but I love this discussion about Ron 
and Hemione.  



I haven't seen anyone mention Hermione's visit to Krum over the summer - 
the beginning of the next book, perhaps?  The desire of Krum to attend 
Hogwarts next year to complete his wizard training?  I see a really 
interesting love triangle that even Days of Our Lives writers would be
desperate 
to get their claws into.  



I see Ron as very reactionary in his emotions - he doesn't think much 
before he talks and then he usually says something he'll regret, but then he
is 
overly stubborn (much like Harry) to apologize even when he knows he 
should.  Playing a bit on the male stereotype, eh JK?  Maybe Hermione 
IS attracted to Krum because he is famous like Harry, yet she is relieved by
his 
seemingly MATURE attitude towards relationships.  And what girl wouldn't 
swoon to know that she was the one thing most prized that was taken by the 
merpeople?  That would go along way to gain my affection.  When I was 
14, I'da flipped if the captain of the football team had the hots for me
like 
that, but I'm marrying someone like Ron, so... there are a few years to go
in 
the series... 



I cannot remember who mentioned it, but I love the idea that Snape had a 
crush on Lily Potter (before she was "Potter," of course).  This could help 
cross the generations and connect some of the story lines (like we have
already 
seen in the Maurauders' Map).

--- Ruth E. Brown

--- ICQ #65931921

--- rebrown12 at earthlink.net 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
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From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Wed Mar  7 15:43:28 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:43:28 -0800 
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Music
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BE88@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 13784

That's how I've been, too.  My sister says she's been going around singing
the music in her head since she first watched the trailer, but although I
heard it enough to know I love that style, I couldn't for the life of me
think of the tune because I'd been so focused on the picture.  She made me
watch (or rather listen to it) last night with my eyes closed so she could
say 'see what I mean?'
 
Mer
 -----Original Message-----
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com [mailto:hedwigthecat at aol.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 5:37 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Music



The music is very reminicent of Indiana Jones in many places and Star Wars
others. I'd never really listened to the track before. Hard to keep the eyes
off the picture and focus on the music...:)


~Hedwig~


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From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar  7 15:58:18 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:58:18 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Music
References: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BE88@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <00bf01c0a71f$6e358580$5614a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13785

The music is very reminicent of Indiana Jones in many places and Star Wars
others. I'd never really listened to the track before. Hard to keep the eyes
off the picture and focus on the music...:)
~Hedwig~

Someone else said it first ... I also think the music is very much like Home
Alone music... I think in the beginning of the movie. I immediately thought
of HA when I heard the trailer music. But then, I have been subjected to
listening to HA a few hundred times.  Revenge is sweet, though. My son
commented the other day, "Geez, mom, how many times are you going to play
that thing?"

Just wait until the movie is out on video!!! hee hee
Doreen






From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 16:09:41 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 16:09:41 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: not so long response (was Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball 
Message-ID: <985mg5+m4sb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13786

Hello once again!

Carol wrote in response to my long post:
My comment:

Why not? There are loads of reasons why she might do R/H and then 
tear them
assunder...come on use your imagination and think of the great 
dramatic and
not necessarily soapish dramatic potential there.  Including but not 
limited
to exploring feelings of loss and betrayal and individuals deciding 
to do
what is good for them vs. what is good for the wizard community as a 
whole.
We can't possibly know what JKR has up her sleeve as far as 
relationships
and their repercussions.   I see no reason for your confidence that 
while
OBHWF (one big happy weasley family) might happen, why it necessarily 
will
be preserved

As I mentioned in my long post, these are MY opinions and are in no 
way meant to imply that H/H is wishful thinking, as Carole has put 
into my mouth :-). I will not go over it all again, but I believe 
once again that the R/H and H/H stance to what JKR will eventually do 
remains unchanged (as I mentioned in my post, it was NOT meant to 
change the H/H viewpoint, only clarify why we R/H-er's are so sure 
that R/H is the way JKR is headed<g>) So, please do not take umbrage 
at my OPINIONS, as I do not take any umbrage at yours *smile* This 
debate is all in good nature (as I mentioned in my previous post as 
well). 

As for JKR doing R/H and then 'tearing them asunder', as Carole has 
pointed out, HP is not a romance, even if romance will play a minor 
role, and I respectively disagree with her. It is my OPINION that 
JKR, who is doing such a slow build up to ANY sort of romance in the 
HP books, will with only one or two books remaining have R/H hook up 
and then break up so, as dramatic as that may be <g>. And how does 
R/H breaking up have anything to do with their 'exploring feelings of 
loss and betrayal and individuals deciding to do what is good for 
them vs. what is good for the wizard community as a whole'. How does 
R/H breaking up become 'good for the wizard community as a whole'? Is 
there something special about H/H that makes that particulary 
pairing 'good for the wizard community as a whole' vs. R/H? I thought 
people got together mainly because of 'individuals deciding to do 
what is good for them', not because of community pressures, or am I 
reading some other book <g>? So, if R/H decide they like each other 
romantically, isn't it archaic to assume that they will put aside 
their burgeoning feelings for the 'good of the community' since as I 
stressed, these feelings are still waiting to be explored and IMO are 
just a side note to the overall plot of the remaining books? Again, 
these are MY opinions, and of course H/H fans have their own, else 
where would the debate be <vbg>? I agree with Carole, that we cannot 
possible know what JKR has up her sleeve as far as relationships and 
their repercussions. But since relationships are not the main focus 
of HP as we all agree, as dramatic and imaginative as it would be to 
have R/H (or even H/H ;-) to happen only for the couple to be later 
torn asunder, I don't think JKR has TIME to explore that aspect if 
Harry and Company's main concern is to fight Voldemort. The most that 
IMO JKR will have is some subtle hints. I see every reason to be 
confident that OBHF may take place, just as you are confident it will 
not, and never the twain shall meet :-)

Carole also wrote:
Again Why not? Could you predict the tone of GoF from the previous 
books.
There are still 3 massive books out there to be written.  I think you 
give
wayb too little credit to JKR's imagination.  No, romance is not the 
prime
theme of these books, but I think it will play a role if even a 
rather minor
one.  But since there is just the beginnings of evidence for these
relationships to happen at all, how can you predict that once these
relationships (that you are so sure of) form they will last forever?


Well yes, I could predict the tone of GoF since JKR had stressed in 
chats and interviews held prior to the release of GoF, that the tone 
of the books would get darker and that there would be deaths starting 
in Book IV. As I elaborated in length in my long previous post, JKR 
has been ambigious about WHO will die, but not about deaths 
occurring. And JKR has said the remaining books will be getting even 
darker so really, the romance angle will most likely be very minor so 
again, I must ask, as dramatic as it would be to have R/H split up 
for the 'good of the community' I really don't see what purpose that 
would serve to further the plot sense as we both agree romance is a 
subplot not the main emphasis. Although, R/H splitting up to make way 
for H/H who will somehow be 'good for the community' sounds like it 
would make a terrific fanfic <vbg>. Book IV was massive, but I doubt 
that the next three books will be as 'massive', as much as we would 
wish it otherwise, so again romance is most likely going to only be a 
side note <vbg>.

As Carole said, this IS just the beginning for these relationships to 
happen, but IMO, breaking up R/H to make way for H/H does not follow 
the tone of the books, whose main emphasis IMO is friendship, family, 
good battling evil with romance as just a side note <g>. I find it 
amusing (but not surprising, given the dedication of H/H fans ;-) 
that for a romance that is just barely budding, we already have 
people looking for it's demise <vbg>. 

Now, I have to ask, if the shoe was on the other foot and H/H was the 
way JKR was headed <g>, would H/H fans be so quick to predict it not 
lasting into adulthood? Would it still be dramatic to have H/H split 
up in order for them to 'explore their feelings of loss and betrayal' 
and make way for R/H? Why is it that a relationship started as 
teens can work for H/H but not for R/H? Even though some H/H fans say 
that they see H/H post-Hogwarts, from the vigour of the Yule Ball 
debate and the shipping debates in general, most H/H fans do see 
a 'subtext' for H/H even as teens, so why are H/H fans so sure H/H 
will last into adulthood, but R/H cannot possibly do so? Because R/H 
fight? That is a matter of personal experience and that aspect has 
already been covered so I will not go into it again <g>. 

Since IMO the R/H is as yet 'implied' (no where in Books I-IV have 
Ron and Hermione outright said they like each other romanticaly ;-), 
I can go back and see a 'subtext' for an R/H relationship easily 
("Whatever house she's in I hope I am not in it." Ron, Book I, 
referring to Hermione ;-), so if 'subtext' means 'implied' well I see 
more instances of an implied relationship between Ron and Hermione, 
than between H/H <g>. I guess 'subtext' is not just valid for H/H, 
since so far R/H has only been implied ;-)

I give very high credit to JKR's imagination which is why I am sure 
she can make even OBHF have a new and fresh feel <vbg>. 

I will end by stating once again, to please keep my comments in 
context, I am NOT trying to make H/H fans take umbrage :-) I am just 
voicing my OPINION and if I sound confident, it is because I have the 
courage of my convictions to back me up, just as I am sure the truly 
dedicated H/H fan does for THEIR stance <vbg>. If we all agreed on 
the same couple, this debate would not be as highly entertaining as 
it is :-)

Bouncer Firoza of the Good Ship R/H with the SS H/G on the side.

Going back into lurkdom, but ready to come out if need be....




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Wed Mar  7 16:55:56 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 16:55:56 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <980q96+4bvk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <985p6s+sc80@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13787

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., paxber at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., star_ling at w... wrote:
> > Oh dear, I fear that I've opened a can of worms here but oh 
well.  
> I 
> > know that everyone disagrees with me, that's why I started this 
> > simply to see if one other person thought along similar lines, I 
> > guess not, oh well I'm used to being the odd ball.  One reason 
why 
> I 
> > think that we differ so much is that I'm bot an adult, yes I know 
> > there are otehr teenagers on here but for the most part it's 
> adults.  
> > I'm only 15 (16 in May YAY!) so I can see other sides to what is 
> > happening to the characters not to mention I've been in wierd 
> > relationships enables me be different and see things as most 
> don't.  
> 
> Oh, please. I refuse to use the phrase "typical teenager", 
especially 
> since several of the people I know who are currently in that age 
> bracket are quite extraordinary people.... But stereotyping in the 
> opposite direction doesn't work either.  I don't think it's quite 
> safe to assume that those who are now adults haven't been in, 
aren't 
> in, or don't remember "weird relationships". Ditto with having 
> friends who are mostly of the other gender; I did in nursery 
school, 
> I did in grade school, I did in college, and I do now.
> 
> All that said, I do agree that being in the thick of what the 
> characters are experiencing has to give you a bit of a different 
> viewpoint. In fact, I think that's one of the tests of good 
writing, 
> that it can stand up to a multiplicity of views, and mean something 
a 
> little different to each reader.
> 
> the other Paula

I know that most have been in 'wierd relationships' and didnt mean 
for it ti sound otherwise, I meant that their have been situations 
that I know that most haven't been in by looking at my friends and 
many adults who I'm in contact over the internet.  I'm sorry to be a 
typical teenager if that's how you saw that.  We all see things 
alittle differently just in the past I usually see things way 
differently then those around me and I have in other areas n the 
group but have kept my 'mouth' shut.  Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong 
way, didn't mean to.
~Star~




From woodbs1 at uk.ibm.com  Wed Mar  7 17:12:17 2001
From: woodbs1 at uk.ibm.com (woodbs1 at uk.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:12:17 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <3AA5A26E.9F6853CB@erols.com>
Message-ID: <985q5h+cq9f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13788

Just adding to that, Voldermort seems undefeatable. He has been able 
to stay alive even as a shadow of himself. He uses the bodies of 
others including his own father to feed his evil. Others have been 
defeated, he is yet to be so.




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Wed Mar  7 17:13:36 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:13:36 -0000
Subject: SHIP: re: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <980o67+4es6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <985q80+h3fr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13789


> > I think that in realness Ron would be more in tune with 
> > his feelings judging by the people around me but I know `we' are 
> > thought of as younger minded then what we are and I'm sure the 
same 
> > goes with how Jo views `us' therefor that is how it's written in 
> her books.
> 
> Do you think JKR writes her characters as young? In general, or 
only 
> in regard to relationships? My impression is that they are a bit 
more 
> savvy than I was at that age, and their struggles as they try to 
> figure out feelings for the opposite sex seem quite realistic to 
me - 
> but it's been a while. 
> 
Yes I do to an extent, but let's not start a new thred on that, 
without a computer I'm having trouble keeping up with this thred
~Star~




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Wed Mar  7 17:13:41 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:13:41 -0000
Subject: SHIP: re: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <980o67+4es6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <985q85+q48v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13790

.
> 
> Do you think JKR writes her characters as young? In general, or 
only 
> in regard to relationships? My impression is that they are a bit 
more 
> savvy than I was at that age, and their struggles as they try to 
> figure out feelings for the opposite sex seem quite realistic to 
me - 
> but it's been a while. 
> 
Yes I do to an extent, but let's not start a new thred on that, 
without a computer I'm having trouble keeping up with this thred
~Star~




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Wed Mar  7 17:17:12 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:17:12 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
In-Reply-To: <981e0d+oio8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <985qeo+4tt2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13791

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I disagree.  I don't think she was punishing Hermione. From Mrs. 
> Weasley's 
> > point of view, if the article was correct, then *two* of her 
> children stood a 
> > chance of being hurt.  I think she was just reacting like a 
mother 
> would.  
> > 
> ____
> 
> Sorry. I'm with Ebony, I don't buy that at all. She WAS punishing 
> Hermione, for goodness sake she pointedly gave the girl a 
substandard 
> present, and glared at her, and was cold to her, and so on. I just 
> think she was punishing her for a percieved maltreatment of Harry, 
> and not for any other reason. Like I've said before, Mrs. Weasley 
> loves Harry, is protective of him, and doubtless thinks that with 
all 
> the loss in his life, it would be a sad thing indeed if his first 
> girlfriend stomped all over his heart with hobnailed boots. 
> 
> This in no way supports any particular ship, either, IMHO. I simply 
> happen to believe that Mrs. Weasley cares about Harry, is 
protective 
> of him, that this speaks very well of her and her family, and that 
> she is not the type of person to go around being nasty to teenage 
> girls over things they cannot help. We all already agree that Ron 
> likes Hermione anyway. That theory needs no extraneous support.
> 
> Cassandra

I disagree, I see things way differently!
just kidding, I agree with this whole heartedly, wow did I just say 
that? :) 
~Star~




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Mar  7 17:20:50 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 11:20:50 -0600
Subject: SHIP: RE: not so long response (was Long Post Re: R/HYule Ball
References: <985mg5+m4sb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA66DF2.86AAE9EA@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13792

Hi --

I will want to reply to the "Long" version of Firoza's post later when I
have more time, but wanted to make a few quick comments here.

First, my compliments to Firoza.  I like people who use logic in their
analysis, and your post definitely does that.  You're working with a few
flawed assumptions about the H/H position though .... so I do need to at
least correct those before we could have a proper debate.  I'm cutting &
pasting some of your basic assumptions from your long post here ...
although, like I said, I'm short on time this morning & cannot respond
to all your long post points in this message.

Note: I'm using "My" opinions, which may or may not speak for the entire
H/H community.

As an aside, you should be careful: you're soon going to have my
reputation for being "overly vehement" in your posts!  <vbg>

firoza10 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Many of the H/H fans see Ron is an open book so it's obvious that he
> likes Hermione, but Hermione is not so easy to read therfore doesn't
> like Ron back. We R/H fans agree that Hermione is not so easy to read
> but the signs she likes Ron back are there, and have been covered in
> detail before so I will not reiterate them now. Well, if Hermione is
> not so easy to decipher, then how do you H/H fans deduce she likes
> Harry instead? Aaahhh, subtext right.
>
My position is not: Hermione is hard to decipher and *therefore* doesn't
like Ron back.  My position is simply that Hermione is hard to
decipher.  Period.  It can be argued that she likes Harry.  It can also
be argued that she likes Ron.  We H/H types deduce that it's possible
that she likes Harry the same way that you all deduce she possibly likes
Ron: reading her overt actions, her remarks *and* the subtext.

> I only discovered this wonderful group after Christmas, so I am still
> waiting to hear all about this 'subtext' that emphatically shows that
> Hermione likes Harry not Ron.
>
No subtext "emphatically" shows Hermione likes Harry and not Ron.  It
can be intepreted both ways.  It all depends on which evidence each
individual gives more weight to.  You'll be able to read the full H/H
position (hopefully with some of the latest theories under development
by Ebony, Carole & others) in the "Potential Romance Pairings" FAQ,
which will be uploaded soon (as soon as it can technically be taken care
of by the techies).

> Also, for FITD, if Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Harry, and Harry likes Cho/no one/someone outside the
> Trio (if I am correct and that is FITD) then how does that support
> H/H? I always thought that it took two people to make a relationship
>  so if Harry doesn't like Hermione back romantically how does FITD
> support H/H?
>
FITD doesn't support H/H as much as it detracts from R/H.  If it takes 2
people to make a relationship work and Herminone likes Harry and not Ron
(as FITD posits), then R/H won't occur.  FITD does not then logically
dictate that H/H will follow since Harry has as yet never expressed any
interest in Hermione.

My belief is that H/H *could* follow later because I see the two
characters as being very well-suited for one another eventually.  If
Hermione expresses her interest in him and once he's eventually defeated
Voldy, well .... who's to say what might happen later on when they're
adults & out of school?

What I do believe wholeheartedly is that JKR is going FITD in the canon
(rather than R/H).  I also can't imagine that she's going OBHWF at this
point since Ginny is a complete non-entity.  You can make arguments both
ways (FITD or R/H), and either way is quite quite plausible.  She could
go either direction from where she left everything in GoF (IMO).

> I think that H/H fans who believe in FITD are saying then is that Harry may not like Hermione
> on the surface, but he loves her in subtext, so eventually he will
> like her back? Seems pretty farfetched to me, since all the books are
> from Harry's POV.
>
Nope.  Dead wrong assumption.  We'll forgive you since you're new (<g>),
but that is most assuredly not the position of the H/H types.  I don't
even have to qualify that as my opinion.  Any of the H/H types would
back me up here.  None of us can make any straight-faced argument that
Harry likes Hermione back in a romantic way *at this point*.  Jim
Flanagan did make a nice argument that it's *possible* that the
vehemence of Harry's denial of a romance between himself & Hermione when
confronted by Krum could be an indication that he's repressing something
(and Jim is not even a shipper of any stripe).  But that is the closest
thing to an argument for subtext that Harry might like Hermione.

> Now as an expert in subtext, I am sure that Penny agrees that
> the subtext of 'something going on' is the implication that Hermione
> and Ron have romantic feelings.
>
The sarcasm directed at me personally is really pretty unnecessary.
I've never held myself out as an "expert" in subtextual interpretation.
It's that sort of remark that tends to put people off the shipping
debates.  You did keep most of your post in a light-hearted vein, so
I'll just ignore it but wanted to point out that we could all do without
sarcastic remarks directed at a specific person.  I'll address the
substance of the above in a later post.

> As I mentioned in my long post, these are MY opinions and are in no
> way meant to imply that H/H is wishful thinking, as Carole has put
> into my mouth :-). I will not go over it all again, but I believe
> once again that the R/H and H/H stance to what JKR will eventually do
> remains unchanged (as I mentioned in my post, it was NOT meant to
> change the H/H viewpoint, only clarify why we R/H-er's are so sure
> that R/H is the way JKR is headed<g>) So, please do not take umbrage
> at my OPINIONS, as I do not take any umbrage at yours *smile* This
> debate is all in good nature (as I mentioned in my previous post as
> well).

I didn't interpret Carole's post as "taking umbrage" at your opinions.
Quite the contrary.  She was posing questions -- asking you to clarify
some of your statements.  That's what a *debate* is.

> As for JKR doing R/H and then 'tearing them asunder', as Carole has
> pointed out, HP is not a romance, even if romance will play a minor
> role, and I respectively disagree with her. It is my OPINION that
> JKR, who is doing such a slow build up to ANY sort of romance in the
> HP books, will with only one or two books remaining have R/H hook up
> and then break up so, as dramatic as that may be <g>.

There are 3 books left -- plenty of time for a teenage relationship to
come & go IMO.  :--)

> And how does R/H breaking up have anything to do with their 'exploring
> feelings of loss and betrayal and individuals deciding to do what is
> good for them vs. what is good for the wizard community as a whole'.

I think Carole was probably hinting at future plots that some of us have
speculated about.  Scenarios such as: (a) Hermione telling Ron she
doesn't like him back & that she likes Harry instead, and Ron possibly
misinterpreting (or correctly interpreting) Harry as returning
Hermione's feelings and betraying Harry as a result; (b) Harry
developing romantic feelings for Hermione but shoving her aside because
he wouldn't want to endanger her (this holds true for any person he
might have romantic interest in btw, including Ginny), etc.  There is,
IMO, the potential for a romantic subplot that works into the main
struggle between Voldemort & the good guys.

> I agree with Carole, that we cannot
> possible know what JKR has up her sleeve as far as relationships and
> their repercussions. But since relationships are not the main focus
> of HP as we all agree, as dramatic and imaginative as it would be to
> have R/H (or even H/H ;-) to happen only for the couple to be later
> torn asunder, I don't think JKR has TIME to explore that aspect if
> Harry and Company's main concern is to fight Voldemort.

Again, see above.  I'm sure some of our creative fanfic writers can come
up with even more possibilities.  Even though it is impossible to
accurately predict exactly which course JKR is likely to take, it bears
noting that there is more than one possibility for a romance subplot
being tied up into the main overarching struggle in the books.

> Well yes, I could predict the tone of GoF since JKR had stressed in
> chats and interviews held prior to the release of GoF, that the tone
> of the books would get darker and that there would be deaths starting
> in Book IV.

We all knew it would be darker, but I will note that I was extremely
surprised that Voldemort returned to power at the end of Book 4 (I would
have predicted Book 6 at the earliest).

> And JKR has said the remaining books will be getting even
> darker so really, the romance angle will most likely be very minor

What if Ron dies whilst trying to undo his mistaken betrayal of Harry?
Dark ... involves the romance subplot .... also involves the struggle
against Voldemort.

> Book IV was massive, but I doubt that the next three books will be as
> 'massive', as much as we would wish it otherwise, so again romance is
> most likely going to only be a side note <vbg>.

I can't predict with Books 5 or 6 but JKR said Book 7 promises to be the
"Encyclopedia Brittanica" it will be so long.  I'll find the reference
on that when I go back through the chats to address your other points.

> As Carole said, this IS just the beginning for these relationships to
> happen, but IMO, breaking up R/H to make way for H/H does not follow
> the tone of the books,

Who's said that the only reason for a R/H breakup would be to "make way
for H/H"?  They might just find themselves ill-suited.  Ron might even
break up with Hermione.  Gasp!  :--)

> Now, I have to ask, if the shoe was on the other foot and H/H was the
> way JKR was headed <g>, would H/H fans be so quick to predict it not
> lasting into adulthood?

Actually, possibly.  Most of us H/H types see it as something that
develops later -- post-Voldy defeat, when the characters are adults,
when they've matured, had other relationships, lived a little.

> Would it still be dramatic to have H/H split
> up in order for them to 'explore their feelings of loss and betrayal'

Yes!

> Why is it that a relationship started as teens can work for H/H but
> not for R/H?

Most of us don't see H/H happening while they're teens.  If it did, it
might work.  Then again, R/H might work too.  I just see R/H as being so
fundamentally incompatible though that I don't see it working when
they're 27 anymore than I see it working when they're 17.  Just my
opinion.

> Even though some H/H fans say
> that they see H/H post-Hogwarts, from the vigour of the Yule Ball
> debate and the shipping debates in general, most H/H fans do see
> a 'subtext' for H/H even as teens, so why are H/H fans so sure H/H
> will last into adulthood, but R/H cannot possibly do so?

Again, you've misinterpreted the subtext argument.  The subtext argument
has to do with Hermione's feelings for Harry, which in & of itself does
not support H/H as teens.  Harry has no interest in her as yet.

Penny (who really must dash!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Mar  7 17:39:26 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:39:26 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch: Lord Voldemort & Tom's school things
In-Reply-To: <009201c0a6cf$54c4d240$7214a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <985roe+q048@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13793

"Doreen" wrote:

> Do you think that we will be seeing more of Tom Riddle's school 
things
> "popping up" in future books? Was this a "hint" of stuff to come?

I wonder if Arthur and the Ministry ever raided Malfoy's house 
afterwards. 

:-)Milz




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Mar  7 17:44:26 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:44:26 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
In-Reply-To: <984h8q+dsf4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <985s1q+t5u3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13794

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., firoza10 at y... wrote:

F: Many of the H/H fans see Ron is an open book so it's obvious that 
he  likes Hermione, but Hermione is not so easy to read therfore 
doesn't  like Ron back. 

Nope. She is not easy to read therefore we do not know for CERTAIN 
that she likes Ron back.


F: We R/H fans agree that Hermione is not so easy to read  but the 
signs she likes Ron back are there, and have been covered in  detail 
before so I will not reiterate them now. Well, if Hermione is  not so 
easy to decipher, then how do you H/H fans deduce she likes   Harry 
instead? Aaahhh, subtext right <vbg>.

So it's all right if you R/H ers interpret the subtext to conclude 
that Hermione likes Ron, but not okay if we interpret the subtext to 
conclude that she likes Harry? Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF; 
Hermione's are not. Her words and actions can be interpreted in 
various ways. This, IMHO, is part of what literary analysis is about.


> 
F: I only discovered this wonderful group after Christmas, so I am 
still  waiting to hear all about this 'subtext' that emphatically 
shows that  Hermione likes Harry not Ron.

Well, just now I went through the archives and gave up after finding 
more than forty posts on exactly this topic. I am very unclear how 
you managed to miss them, as there have been several after Christmas. 
Perhaps you might want to email Penny off-list as she may have 
collected the message numbers for the relationships FAQ.

F: Also, for FITD, if Ron likes Hermione,  Hermione likes Harry, and 
Harry likes Cho/no one/someone outside the  Trio (if I am correct and 
that is FITD) then how does that support  H/H? I always thought that 
it took two people to make a relationship  <g> so if Harry doesn't 
like Hermione back romantically how does FITD   support H/H? Aaaah, 
subtext right ;-) I think that H/H fans who  believe in FITD are 
saying then is that Harry may not like Hermione 
> on the surface, but he loves her in subtext, so eventually he will 
> like her back? 

No again. It's got nothing to do with subtext. Nobody has argued that 
Harry shows feelings for Hermione which are present in the subtext. I 
really suggest that perhaps you go back and read the messages posted 
before Christmas. Otherwise you're coming into the discussion late 
and therefore may be assuming that points were made that were, in 
fact, never made.


F: So, if 'subtext' means 'implied' or 'figurative language', where 
in Books I to IV is it implied or figuratively written that Hermione 
likes Harry and Harry likes Hermione romantically (we all agree that 
> H and H like each other as friends ;-))? 

Okay, taking the dictionary definition of subtext a tad too literally 
here, aren't we? Especially since, as I already pointed out, nobody 
has argued that Harry likes Hermione. It has repeatedly been argued 
that the subtext indicates that Hermione likes Harry, meaning that we 
are interpreting this from her actions as the text never comes out 
with the sentence HERMIONE LIKES HARRY. As for those actions, I am 
afraid I cannot be bothered to repeat them for the ninetieth time. 
They ARE in the archives. This is why the search function is so 
useful.


F: So how about the infamous Kiss at the end of Book IV, 'she did 
> something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek'. 
> H/H fans have pointed out the JKR has stressed this kiss by adding 
> the line 'she did something she had never done before'. Well, 
> according to the definition of subtext I found, that is not 
implied,  that is stated outright and we faithful Harry Potter fans 
know that 
> she has never kissed Harry on the cheek before. So, what is the 
> subtext in The Kiss? 

*clears throat* What? The fact that it is clearly stated in the text 
that Hermione has never kissed Harry before means that there isn't 
any subtext? Subtext is in part the intepretation put on ACTIONS in 
the text; the clause that Hermione has never done this before 
modifies/describes the action, but is not itself the action. The kiss 
is the action and is open to subtextual interpretations exactly like 
the subtextual interpretation you put on it in the following 
paragraph. Or did you not realize that's what you were doing?


F: "I read some posts earlier were I believe H/H 
> fans polled teenagers to get their take on the KISS and I also 
> believe that the results of THAT poll were unanimous that Hermione 
> and Harry liked each other, or at least that Hermione like Harry. 
> Well, I haven't been a teenager for quite some time (I am thirty 
and  proud of it ;-)) but I do remember vividly what it felt like to 
be  fourteen and IMO I would never kiss the boy I liked on the cheek 
> especially if I wasn't sure if he returned my feelings"

And if this isn't a subtextual interpretation of the kiss, I don't 
know what is. So Hermione having kissed Harry proves she doesn't like 
him, because if she did like him, she'd be far too paralyzed with 
fear to even go near him? Instead, she would probably just have 
fainted at his feet. Or perhaps she would have glared at him, since 
her repeated glaring at Ron seems to be interpreted as a sign of deep 
affection by R/H ers.  

> 
F: The point that I am trying to make of all my rambles is that 
> EVERYTHING that points to a particular ship can be interpreted 
> differently by the other ship based on personal experience. What we 
> R/H fans say is that what we interpret has been bourne out by JKR 
> herself <vbg>. 

I think you mean "borne out." "Bourne" is something quite different. 
Also, I disagree, but then, we knew that.

> 
> 
F: This definition and common sense tells us that between 
means 'jointly 
> engaging' and 'shared by'. Since the two people in JKR's statement 
> are Hermione and Ron (Harry is NOT mentioned, subtext or no subtext 
> <vbg>) they are 'jointly engaging' and 'sharing' in the 'something 
> going'. Now as an expert in subtext, I am sure that Penny agrees 
that  the subtext of 'something going on' is the implication that 
Hermione  and Ron have romantic feelings. 

I'd hesitate for a good long time before assuming that Penny would 
agree with that. 


F: Please do not launch forth an all out   attack on me for 
clarifying JKR's statement H/H fans, because all I  am pointing out 
is that there really is no other way to 
> interpret 'between' if the 'between' being referred to is the one 
in 
> the English language <g>! So if H/H fans can follow the logic of my 
> ramble so far, they will have to agree that JKR is saying that 
> Hermione DOES have romantic feelings (if we agree that 
> the 'something' being referred to here is 'romantic feelings' <g>) 
> for Ron, but Ron, typical boy, is clueless.


No. I don't agree at all. I'm sorry about that. First off, I'm rather 
shocked that so much weight is being put on something JKR said in 
chat. As has been stated here before, chat is not canon. Also, my 
personal guess would be that she did not have a dictionary with her 
at the time open to the page with the definition for "between." I 
also cannot believe that we are expected to change our entire view of 
the series based on an offhand comment she made in chat. Books are 
living things in the process of writing; they change and grow, and my 
personal opinion is that she gives such evasive answers partly 
because she has not yet made up her mind and doesn't want to get 
boxed into a corner. 
And I myself would never claim I was "clarifying" something for JKR 
(how unfortunate that she didn't take the time to clarify it herself, 
tsk tsk, good thing WE know what she REALLY meant) unless I'd talked 
to her about it personally. As far as I'm concerned, if I were an 
author, I might easily have said that there was something between Ron 
and Hermione even if all I meant was that Ron likes Hermione and 
Hermione had feelings of affection/guilt/confusion in return.
> 
> 
F: Well if the pre-GoF statements that Penny is referring to are the 
> ones were JKR stated that the Trio would 'fall in love with the 
wrong  people' or that they 'would date the wrong person' then that 
has been  bourne out in GoF since none of us seriously believe that 
Hermione is   going to actually fall in love with Krum, Ron with 
Padma/Fleur or  Harry with Parvati/Cho, the obvious 'wrong people' in 
GoF. 

Which could be extended to assume that Ron falling for Hermione meant 
he had fallen for the wrong person. Now there's an interpretation I 
could get behind, IF I thought there was a whole lot of point trying 
to interpret comments made in chat.

F: "Q: Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is 
he 
> going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley?  
> JKR: In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not 
> Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time 
> for him to change his mind. ;-)  
> 
> Now, in Book IV, it has been bourne out that Harry does decide he 
> likes a girl, and that girl everyone knows is Cho Chang. JKR also 
> says that he is only fourteen, so there's plenty of time for him to 
> change his mind, implying that he will fall out of love with Cho 
and   fall in love with either Hermione or Ginny, the only two girls 
> mentioned in the question. 

Even as a die-hard H/H shipper, there is no way on earth that I would 
interpret that comment as meaning that just because Harry doesn't 
fall for Hermione or Ginny in Book 4, but may change his mind about 
who he likes in the future, that that made Hermione a stronger 
candididate to be his Love Object. Especially considering that JKR 
was responding to a question that *specifically* mentioned Hermione 
and Ginny, rather as if they were Harry's only two options, which 
IMHO is pretty silly.



> 
F: In the Barnes and Noble chat, she says that there is 'something 
going  on between Ron and Hermione' meaning that Hermione DOES return 
Ron's  feelings (if you agree that the word 'between' means 'jointly 
> engaging in' <vbg>). 

I agree that the word between means jointly engaging in, and yet do 
not at all agree with this interpretation of her comment.  


F: In an audio interview prior to the release of 
> GoF, if you go to the last question, JKR says:
> 
> "Oh, I like this one. 'Do Harry and Hermione have a date?' No. 
Harry  and Hermione are very platonic. But I won't speak for anyone 
else,   nudge nudge wink wink."

*sigh* Yes, they are platonic in Book 4, which was what she was 
referring to in the chat. I don't think I see anyone disagreeing with 
that. Ron and Hermione are platonic all through Books 1-3. Does that, 
in your mind, mean they'll never be anything else?
Didn't think so.
> 
"That I take to 
> mean that the 'anyone else' she refers to is Ron and that is again 
> bourne out by his reactions in GoF (I believe the common consensus 
is  that Ron DOES like Hermione) and her 'something going on between' 
> comment later on. The 'anyone else' could refer to Krum, but in all 
> honesty it doesn't seem likely she would refer to a character that 
we   haven't met yet, since this interview occured before GoF. These 
are  the only common sense interpretations of this statement <g>.

To me, it doesn't seem like a common sense interpretation, it seems 
like a bizarre one. I didn't take the "anyone else" comment to mean 
Ron, I took it as a blanket reference to the hormones springing up 
all around in GoF. Ron's feelings for Fleur, Krum's for Hermione, 
Harry's for Cho, Cho's for Cedric, etc etc ad infinitum. I don't 
think she was being all that specific. And again, far too much weight 
put on offhand comments made in chat. Also, I cannot see why on earth 
she wouldn't reference a character we haven't met yet. Why not?


> 
F: "Going back to the Feb. 3, 2000 chat, since it is apparent that 
there 
> is 'something going on between' Ron AND Hermione as of Book IV, and 
> Harry and Hermione are very platonic as of Book IV, common sense 
> indicates that the only one left is Ginny (since Cedric's death 
rules   out Cho, and JKR has said that Ginny will play more of a role 
in Book   V <g>)." 

This just doesn't make any sense to me. It seems to be a chain of 
faulty reasoning. Cedric's death does not rule out Cho. The fact that 
Harry and Hermione are platonic in Book 4 doesn't rule out Hermione. 
Nor does anything JKR says rule out the possibility of the 
introduction of a new female character. This seems to be the 
arguement that Harry and Ginny will get together, not because they 
are comaptible, not because there's any evidence he likes her, but 
because she is the only living female character not ruled out by a 
comment made in chat.
Okay....


F: That is unless anyone thinks that Hermione can be in love 
> with TWO people at the same time

WHERE is this coming from? Who ever said she was in love with even 
one person?

F: or that JKR, the creator of all 
> things HP who made these statements, is shall we say, less than 
> truthful <g>? 

Good Lord, the poor woman, are we supposed to assume that the 
interpretations put on what she said in chat are gospel truth? The 
fact is that she said a beloved character would die in GoF, and that 
didn't really happen. Does that make her a liar?

f: Some words such as 'between' and 'platonic' 
> really have only one meaning <vbg>.

There are words, and their definitions. And then there is CONTEXT.

> 
F: So, regarding RELATIONSHIPS, JKR has been pretty straight forward 
and   hasn't really said anything that has not been bourne out in the 
books  so far.

She hasn't said much of anything at all.


F: But despair not 
> H/H fans, there are always fanfics :-)! 

Somehow I've managed to avoid despair. Possibly because I know that 
there will be unexpected twists in the future of the books, Ron might 
not even survive them, not to mention Harry and Hermione. If you 
think any outcome that doesn't feature R/H is by extension a soap 
opera, that's your business. I don't.
> 
"Nor do we think that R/H or H/G when they eventually 
> DO get together will break up and not last. That is not in keeping 
> with the tone of the HP books, however 'unrealistic' that may be 
and  despite all the fanfics out there <vbg>."

The fact is that we will probably never know, since the books will 
only take us to age 17 and I strongly doubt anyone will be getting 
married or that we will ever find out what happens to anyone's 
relationships. And dedicated H/H fan and ship debater that I am, I 
just can't read any farther. I think I've said what I had to say, and 
more besides. Peace out.

Cassandra
> 





From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 18:47:11 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:47:11 -0800
Subject: ship:  JK  chat, R/H vs. H/H
Message-ID: <F286tFR3wNgP1f3L0zG00001b4c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13795

Hi, guys -


F = Firoza,

CC = Cassandra Claire

F: Many of the H/H fans see Ron is an open book so it's obvious that
he  likes Hermione, but Hermione is not so easy to read therfore
doesn't  like Ron back.

CC: Nope. She is not easy to read therefore we do not know for CERTAIN
that she likes Ron back.

I have to agree with this. I think that most R/Hr shippers will have to 
agree with this. Because, strictly speaking, Ron is Harry's best friend (and 
he's rather obvious) we know more about how he feels. Harry just seems to be 
around him more, which is probably why we see more of his emotions. However, 
you can look at Hermione's issues with Fleur as her showing some feelings 
for Ron. I have, however, heard H/H shippers mention that the scene where 
she glares when Fleur kisses them could, in fact, be her glaring at Harry, 
but JK writes it like that to confuse us.


F: We R/H fans agree that Hermione is not so easy to read  but the
signs she likes Ron back are there, and have been covered in  detail
before so I will not reiterate them now. Well, if Hermione is  not so
easy to decipher, then how do you H/H fans deduce she likes   Harry
instead? Aaahhh, subtext right <vbg>.

CC: <So it's all right if you R/H ers interpret the subtext to conclude
that Hermione likes Ron, but not okay if we interpret the subtext to
conclude that she likes Harry? Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF;
Hermione's are not. Her words and actions can be interpreted in
various ways. This, IMHO, is part of what literary analysis is about.>

Ron is very obvious, and Hermione is not. This probably comes from the fact 
that Ron has grown up in a large family where no one notices what you do 
unless you explode something (which the twins do, so come to think of it, 
that doesn't even get much reaction). Gah. You could turn these shipper 
debates into some cheesy soap opera - "Hermione's Heart". It doesn't really 
matter *who* she loves, Harry does not like her (yet), and Ron's too shy to 
do much of anything, so we don't have much to worry about. Anyway, what 
about the subtext that says Draco and Harry are ment to be?


F: So how about the infamous Kiss at the end of Book IV, 'she did
 > something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek'.
 > H/H fans have pointed out the JKR has stressed this kiss by adding
 > the line 'she did something she had never done before'. Well,
 > according to the definition of subtext I found, that is not
implied,  that is stated outright and we faithful Harry Potter fans
know that
 > she has never kissed Harry on the cheek before. So, what is the
 > subtext in The Kiss?

CC: <*clears throat* What? The fact that it is clearly stated in the text
that Hermione has never kissed Harry before means that there isn't
any subtext? Subtext is in part the intepretation put on ACTIONS in
the text; the clause that Hermione has never done this before
modifies/describes the action, but is not itself the action. The kiss
is the action and is open to subtextual interpretations exactly like
the subtextual interpretation you put on it in the following
paragraph. Or did you not realize that's what you were doing?>

*wince* The Kiss has no subtext. Put that on hold. The kiss is an out right 
mushy thing to do. Something JK did to keep us guessing. To let H/H shippers 
scream "I'm right!". Something to make R/Hr shippers shrug at. Plotwise, it 
is something to confuse Harry and frustrate Ron. No subtext is needed.


F: Please do not launch forth an all out   attack on me for
clarifying JKR's statement H/H fans, because all I  am pointing out
is that there really is no other way to
 > interpret 'between' if the 'between' being referred to is the one
in
 > the English language <g>! So if H/H fans can follow the logic of my
 > ramble so far, they will have to agree that JKR is saying that
 > Hermione DOES have romantic feelings (if we agree that
 > the 'something' being referred to here is 'romantic feelings' <g>)
 > for Ron, but Ron, typical boy, is clueless.


I am forced to say that this was a highly dangerous thing to do. One rule in 
debating a logical point - *never* presume *anything*. Paraphrasing an 
off-the-cuff comment made by JK is in no way proof of anything. An issue 
between them could most definitly be unrequited love. Is that so far 
fetched? It certianly makes there be "something between them". Even more so 
when you look at the fact that Hermione has to be blind to not pick up on 
it. Ron will probably make some move in the next book, and Hermione will or 
will not respond, either way it will cause something to happen. And just 
because something is going one way, it doesn't mean it's going the other.





F: "Q: Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is
he
 > going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley?
 > JKR: In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not
 > Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time
 > for him to change his mind. ;-)
 >
 > Now, in Book IV, it has been bourne out that Harry does decide he
 > likes a girl, and that girl everyone knows is Cho Chang. JKR also
 > says that he is only fourteen, so there's plenty of time for him to
 > change his mind, implying that he will fall out of love with Cho
and   fall in love with either Hermione or Ginny, the only two girls
 > mentioned in the question.

It's been addressed, but this is very fuzzy logic. She says that he changes 
his mind. This doesn't mean she isn't saying that he'll date Lavender Brown 
later on. Reading too much into comments is, as I have said, a dangerous 
thing to do.



 >
F: "Going back to the Feb. 3, 2000 chat, since it is apparent that
there
 > is 'something going on between' Ron AND Hermione as of Book IV, and
 > Harry and Hermione are very platonic as of Book IV, common sense
 > indicates that the only one left is Ginny (since Cedric's death
rules   out Cho, and JKR has said that Ginny will play more of a role
in Book   V <g>)."

CC: This just doesn't make any sense to me. It seems to be a chain of
faulty reasoning. Cedric's death does not rule out Cho. The fact that
Harry and Hermione are platonic in Book 4 doesn't rule out Hermione.
Nor does anything JKR says rule out the possibility of the
introduction of a new female character. This seems to be the
arguement that Harry and Ginny will get together, not because they
are comaptible, not because there's any evidence he likes her, but
because she is the only living female character not ruled out by a
comment made in chat.
Okay....

Cassandra! This would have been a perfect time to whip out the comment you 
used on me in one of the last shipper debates when *I* used this kind of 
logic.... "I would hate for the books to end with Harry getting together 
with Ginny simply to further the Potter gene pool". Or something like that. 
It applies. Here, we have eleminated every possible female in the books 
using strange ideas to get us here, and assuming that JK was asking us to. 
Cedric's death puts a damper on the H/C thing, but it might pull them closer 
together. Just because H/H didn't happen in Book 4 doesn't mean it's ruled 
out. Gah. Besides, he's hooking up with Draco. You didn't cross him off the 
list.


F: That is unless anyone thinks that Hermione can be in love
 > with TWO people at the same time

WHERE is this coming from? Who ever said she was in love with even
one person?

F: or that JKR, the creator of all
 > things HP who made these statements, is shall we say, less than
 > truthful <g>?

CC: Good Lord, the poor woman, are we supposed to assume that the
interpretations put on what she said in chat are gospel truth? The
fact is that she said a beloved character would die in GoF, and that
didn't really happen. Does that make her a liar?

*bangs head* This isn't even interpreting it in a semi-acceptable light. Odd 
spin-offs at best. The beloved character thing is a prime example of how It 
Is All Up To Opinion. If you got attached to Cedric in his one pre-GoF 
scene, he was beloved. If not, bully for you. Maybe she was trying to throw 
us off. Maybe she thought we all liked him?

And now onto Penny's post:

<I think Carole was probably hinting at future plots that some of us have 
speculated about.  Scenarios such as: (a) Hermione telling Ron she
doesn't like him back & that she likes Harry instead, and Ron possibly
misinterpreting (or correctly interpreting) Harry as returning
Hermione's feelings and betraying Harry as a result; (b) Harry
developing romantic feelings for Hermione but shoving her aside because
he wouldn't want to endanger her (this holds true for any person he
might have romantic interest in btw, including Ginny), etc.  There is,
IMO, the potential for a romantic subplot that works into the main
struggle between Voldemort & the good guys.>

I, for one, just do not understand the whole Betrayal!Ron thing. There are 
so very few good guys in the plot to begin with, and a select few of them 
are close to Harry. Close to him and his age? Two. Life would be very odd 
for him without Ron around. He was is his best friend, he was the first 
person to look beyond the scar, so to speak. He introduced him to Quiddich. 
They talk about sports. They will most likely talk about girls later. He 
needs that male friendship in his life. The only other boys are Seamus and 
Dean (and Neville), and they just aren't on his wave length. Harry isn't 
even really friends with them. When he and Ron got into their fight in GoF, 
*Ron* was the one to hang out with the other boys. And about that fight - 
Christ! They are teenage boys, not saints. Can't they get into an argument 
with out it meaning that one will sell the other's soul to the Dark Lord? 
Please.
  I agree with the idea that Harry will shove aside the love in his love 
(whoever that may be), because he doesn't want them hurt. To be quite 
honest, I see Harry more as a solitairy guy. He just seems to have too many 
issues to have a stable love life. But that's an argument I have said way 
too many times before.

Morsus "MC" Crustum


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From rmatovic at ssk.com  Wed Mar  7 19:00:03 2001
From: rmatovic at ssk.com (rmatovic at ssk.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:00:03 -0000
Subject: Character Sketch/ch.33
In-Reply-To: <9826l5+gk8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9860fj+2c1g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13796


> 
> 4. Does he have an heir, and does he want one?  (I hate to ask this, 
> but it seems obligatory:) Is he going to prove to be related to
> anyone we know?
>

On the relationship to Harry question, it seems there must be some kind 
of connection (not Darth Vader style, but something).

James and Lilly were fighting against V.  Makes sense that V wanted to 
kill James (although we obviously don't know the whole story about that 
yet).  But why did Harry need to die?  Lilly didn't need to -- in GoF V 
says specifically that she didn't need to die, and was only killed for 
protecting Harry.  It seems like V was seeking out Harry, that he knew 
there was something about this boy that he had to stamp out in order to 
meet his own goals.  

Maybe this has been discussed ad nauseum.  I'm new and reviewed only a 
week or so of messages before posting.

Rebecca






From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Wed Mar  7 19:01:02 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 14:01:02 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Music
Message-ID: <96.11043eab.27d7df6e@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13797

In a message dated Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:59:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Doreen" <nera at rconnect.com> writes:

Someone else said it first ... I also think the music is very much like Home
Alone music... I think in the beginning of the movie. I immediately thought
of HA when I heard the trailer music. But then, I have been subjected to
listening to HA a few hundred times.  Revenge is sweet, though. My son
commented the other day, "Geez, mom, how many times are you going to play
that thing?"

Just wait until the movie is out on video!!! hee hee
Doreen>>

I agree, the very beginning is very much like Home Alone. Someone else also mentioned the corrolation with Chris Columbus (who was not the first choice to direct this film) acting as director for the film as well as having done HA.

With smatterings of IJ and SW thrown in throughout the trailer as well. Williams doing the soundtrack will be excellent. He's one of the best theatrical composers, if not THE best, out there.


~Hedwig~





From wings909 at aol.com  Wed Mar  7 19:11:01 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:11:01 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Music
Message-ID: <d9.112d4531.27d7e1c5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13798

In a message dated 03/07/2001 2:07:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hedwigthecat at aol.com writes:

<< Chris Columbus (who was not the first choice to direct this film)  >>


Who was the first choice?  Just curious..

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar  7 19:27:27 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 13:27:27 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] House-badges/devices
References: <97tins+sphg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA68B9E.B973A915@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13799

prince_galrion at yahoo.no wrote:

> If you go to
> http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery22.htm
>
> you can see the house-badges/devices designed for the school-uniforms
> in the movie.  Now, if some-one can lend me a larg sail-ship and some
> cable-lengths of rope, so I can properly keelhaul the artist(s) who
> was (were) responsible for this mess (after frocefeeding him/her
> lutefisk, smalahove and codfish-tongue), I would feel much better.

Calm yourself. These are at least heraldic *looking,* which is more than
I expected after having seen the "outlined heads over same-color
background" nightmares on some of the merchandise. No, these are fine,
they don't even look remotely like artwork you'd find on a skateboard.

> As far as the devices go (they are not crests, but they do have
> crests, barely visible on top of the helms), we have already seen the
> Gryffindor device.  I still don't like it - the lion is facing the
> wrong way, for goodness' sake.

Where do you get that? I don't recall the orientation of Gryffindor's
lion being mentioned specifically anywhere (although I could be
wrong--Steve?). I think it *is* referred to as rampant (for you
non-herald types, one back foot down, the rest in the air) instead of
salient (both back feet down), which is what you usually get when people
try to draw a heraldic lion. This lion is, in fact, correctly rampant.

It does face to dexter (the right of the shield, but from the position
of the person who would be HOLDING it, i.e., the guy behind it, thus to
the *viewer's* left). However, facing to dexter is the correct assumed
default. Facing the other way would be "rampant to sinister," and
generally must be specified. Again, does it say somewhere in the books
that I'm forgetting, that the lion faces to sinister (or to the viewer's
right)?

On the Hogwarts device, the quartering that combines all the House
devices, the lion is depicted as to sinister, but I think that was done
for visual balance--another bit of artistic license.

They quartered the background, for some unknown reason, presumably to
include both the House colors on the field, which makes part of the gold
lion have to compete with a gold field. But it has a far more heraldic
"feel" than I was expecting and I'm pleased. I mean, it even has a
*helm.* Wow. Sometimes modern attempts at heraldry-looking stuff just
"float" a torse with a crest on it, with no helm. Nor is this mantling
threatening to eat Cincinatti or anything. The design is good and
balanced.

>  The crest may be a lion-head, but it is very difficult to see
> clearly.

Tremendously. I can't make it into a lion-head by looking at it, but I
can't figure out anything else.

> The Ravenclaw device, for some reason, does not show a bronze eagle
> displayed - it shows a black crow perched on a twig (at least it looks
> more like a crow, or sparrow, or magpie, than a rawen or eagle).

No, you're right, this is a raven. This is the most arrant departure
from the book, in that they totally redesigned it.

>  At least most of the field is blue (though the part below the twig,
> for some odd reason, is white).

Well, black on blue is not good contrast, but they used light blue (Bleu
Celeste, a later heraldic color, sky-blue, as different from a true
heraldic royal blue) so you can see the shape of the raven. I'm
suspecting they used a white base because *brown8 on blue is hopeless,
they wanted the perch identifiable as a branch, and so increased the
contrast.

> I will expect the crest is supposed to have some connection with the
> birdie on the chield, but it looks more like a horse's head in
> profile.

I can make out stitching that looks like it's around the point of a
beak, so I'm betting it's a black raven's head.

> The Hufflepuff-device shows a grey and black badger on a field that is
> quarterly of black and yellow.  This means that from a distance more
> than a few inches, it will be impossible to see what the device shows,
> lest you know what is supposed to be there

I think they did a badger proper (in its actual colors) rather than the
black badger that is specified. Hard to tell, because even when you
color a badger black heraldically, there's parts you have to have light,
like the facial stripes, to identify it as a badger. But I think it's a
badger proper.

I think they quartered the field here because the badger doesn't fill
the space on the shield as well as the lion does (not many things
do--another reason lions were so popular). Harder to say why they
departed from the Hufflepuff colors of white and black, unless a
quartering of white and black had a greater contrast problem. By that, I
mean that the badger would stand out clearly against the white sections,
but blend very much into the black; the combination of high-contrast and
low-contrast quarters is avoided by using gold. It's hard to make out,
but not so hard as if you thought it was an odd shape involving the two
dark quarters; this way, the contrast is low all-round, more visually
balanced.

They could, by the way, have improved both identifiability and contrast
by "fixing" the position of the badger, but they stayed with rampant
regardant (looking back over its shoulder) which I believe is specified
in the books, so vivat to them on that point (is it, Steve?).

> - this problem is similar for the Gryffindor-badge.

Not as great for Gryffindor, because a rampant lion is familiar to most
people, and a rampant badger is not something they will likely have seen
before, especially not one regardant.

>  The crest is a badger passant.

Statant, from what I can see. (passant = walking; statant = standing)

> The Slytherin-device has been mauled to the least degree.  The field,
> which should have been green, appears black on the picture, but it may
> just be a rather dark green.

I think that's black, but you may be right, we'll have to see. Again I
am hampered by the heraldry books all being in the room where the baby
is at the moment sleeping. I have simply GOT to get the term for that
snake's position. It dances on the tip of my tongue every time, and I
never recall it.

>  The crest is a snake.

Yup, a little version entire of the one on the shield.

> If they spent 80 mio USD on the movie, they could at least have had
> soemone with a passing knowledge of heraldry device the badges,

They did. Or have you not seen the nightmares of which I spoke? Does
anyone have a merchandise URL that shows those lozengy-background,
modern-logo head-outline things? In "cool" modern colors, not even close
to heraldic? I was almost ill right there in the store.

> or simply stick to what was already in the books.

They did pretty well. The amount of tinkering is, in my estimation,
refreshingly small and explainable. No, they don't follow the Rules of
Heraldry precisely, but they did a surprisingly minor amount of
alteration, and the devices are immediately recognizable as
such--devices, heraldry, shields, medieval things, etc. They have helms!
The helms are depicted in three-quarter facing, but that's acceptable.
Further, the helms are nice, simple, early helms, recognizable as such,
not late-period, fourteenth-century tilting nightmares, and thus they
match the nice, simple heraldry. The mantlings aren't overdone,
enhancing and framing rather than taking over. In short, I could blazon
these easily [which does mean something, see definition below if you're
really, really interested, or just masochistic]. (Do you want me to,
Steve? They're slightly different from the quarters on the Hogwarts
device).

I do take issue with using a raven rather than an eagle, but considering
how such projects are usually "dumbed down" for the audience, if this
rather irresistible cant is the only major sin of change the designers
did, I will forgive. They did what it seems the movie is determined to
do, kept the character of the work while adapting it for a movie
audience. I'm actually quite pleased with this.

--Amanda

P.S. -- Definition, if anyone made it this far-- To blazon a device or
coat of arms, means to describe it in words so that any heraldic artist
can take your description and draw the coat of arms correctly from it.
This is harder than it sounds; the terminology must be precise, down to
positions of legs or wings, etc. Many designs are "unblazonable," that
is, you can't describe them, using terms of heraldry, in sufficient
specific detail that someone could recreate the design going by the
words alone. I frankly had expected that whatever the movie designers
came up with for the House "badges" would be modern-looking and
unblazonable, so this is a nice surprise.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar  7 19:41:08 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:41:08 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Music composers & directors
References: <d9.112d4531.27d7e1c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c0a73e$c47e5b00$6a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13800

I think it was Spielberg, if I am not mistaken. He claimed to have been busy
with another film.


In a message dated 03/07/2001 2:07:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
hedwigthecat at aol.com writes:

<< Chris Columbus (who was not the first choice to direct this film)  >>

Who was the first choice?  Just curious..

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor






From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 19:46:19 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:46:19 -0000
Subject: SHIP: RE: not so long response (was Long Post Re: R/HYule Ball
Message-ID: <98636b+2e0n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13801

Hello again!

Penny, thank you for the compliment on my logic :-)

Penny wrote:
> Now as an expert in subtext, I am sure that Penny agrees that
> the subtext of 'something going on' is the implication that Hermione
> and Ron have romantic feelings.
>
The sarcasm directed at me personally is really pretty unnecessary.
I've never held myself out as an "expert" in subtextual 
interpretation.
It's that sort of remark that tends to put people off the shipping
debates.  You did keep most of your post in a light-hearted vein, so
I'll just ignore it but wanted to point out that we could all do 
without
sarcastic remarks directed at a specific person.  I'll address the
substance of the above in a later post.

I apologize if my statement that you are an 'expert in subtext' came 
across as sarcasm, it was NOT meant as such :-) What I meant to say 
was that it seems to me (please correct me if I am wrong) that you 
are a vocal proponent for subtext (at least that has been my 
impression), so I thought therefore you would be pick up on 
the 'something' implication quickly and so I would not have to go 
into too much detail regarding the subtext of 'something'. That is 
all, no sarcasm intended, I leave that to Ron :-)

Thank you for correcting my interpretatin of FITD!

Penny wrote:
FITD doesn't support H/H as much as it detracts from R/H.  If it 
takes 2 people to make a relationship work and Herminone likes Harry 
and not Ron (as FITD posits), then R/H won't occur.  FITD does not 
then logically dictate that H/H will follow since Harry has as yet 
never expressed any interest in Hermione. <snip>
My belief is that H/H *could* follow later because I see the two
characters as being very well-suited for one another eventually.  If
Hermione expresses her interest in him and once he's eventually 
defeated Voldy, well .... who's to say what might happen later on 
when they're adults & out of school?

I will have to disagree with the assumption that FITD detracts from 
R/H for the same reason that Penny sees H/H *could* happen later, 
i.e., suitability of the couples. We have three people, Ron, 
Hermione, and Harry. R/H fans see R/H because they see a MUTUAL 
attraction between Ron and Hermione, not just Hermione liking Ron or 
vice versa. Penny (and perhaps other H/H fans as well) see Hermione 
liking Harry but *could* see H/H following later based on the belief 
that 'the two characters as being very well-suited for one another 
eventually'. R/H fans see the two characters being very well-suited 
for one another now AND eventually <vgb>. So, if Ron likes Hermione 
and Hermione likes Harry, and Harry likes someone else/no one yet, 
that to me does not detract from R/H because R/H-er's see a MUTUAL 
attraction, not just Ron liking Hermione. If it takes 2 people to 
make a relationship to work and Hermione likes Harry and not Ron, 
then I agree R/H will not occur :-) So, we are back to square one 
again, since R/H-er's see a MUTUAL attraction at this point in time, 
while Penny and possibly other H/H fans, see a FUTURE relationship 
based on how compatible Harry and Hermione are as a couple in their 
view, so I will just leave it at that :-)

Penny wrote:
I didn't interpret Carole's post as "taking umbrage" at your opinions.
Quite the contrary.  She was posing questions -- asking you to clarify
some of your statements.  That's what a *debate* is.


I will have to respectfully disagree, but the words 'I do however 
take issue with this statement' implies to me "umbrage" :-) and that 
was not my intention, as I stressed in my original post. And I have 
tried to clarify some of my statements in my response to Carole's 
post :-)

My original posts and this post is meant ONLY as a light-hearted 
airing of views and if I haven't been clear in some of my statements 
I have tried to rectify that, as is I believe customary in a 
*debate*. My statements are NOT meant to be taken issue of, they are 
as I have stressed my opinions only :-) 

Penny wrote:
I think Carole was probably hinting at future plots that some of us 
have speculated about. Scenarios such as: (a) Hermione telling Ron 
she doesn't like him back & that she likes Harry instead, and Ron 
possibly misinterpreting (or correctly interpreting) Harry as 
returning Hermione's feelings and betraying Harry as a result; (b) 
Harry developing romantic feelings for Hermione but shoving her aside 
because he wouldn't want to endanger her (this holds true for any 
person he might have romantic interest in btw, including Ginny), etc. 
There is,IMO, the potential for a romantic subplot that works into 
the main struggle between Voldemort & the good guys.

As I mentioned in my post to Carole, R/H breaking up (whether to make 
way for H/H or just because people do break up ;-) would indeed make 
a great fanfic. The scenarios Penny has outlined above ARE great 
scenarios and all very plausible, but I believe we differ in how we 
see he canon eventually going (an understatement of massive 
proportions <vbg>). I and my fellow shipmates see R/H in the canon 
staying together as MORE plausible than their breaking up due to any 
of the various, different scenarios we fans may come up with, that's 
all. As fun as it is to predict what JKR will do, I have great faith 
in JKR's imagination so I doubt that any one of us will actually 
predict what she will do correctly, as I am sure you will agree ;-) 
But, hey that's what fanfics are for, to explore all possible 
scenarios and plausible outcomes :-)

I agree with Penny, there IS 'potential for a romantic subplot that 
works into the main struggle between Voldemort & the good guys'. I 
just see a different potential than the ones involving Harry and 
Hermione <vbg>. As for Ron getting killed in saving Harry, that is 
very possible (but heartbreaking scenario), but I still don't see 
Hermione turning to Harry for comfort, since I don't see any H/H 
subtext ;-) That too me would be like Harry playing second-fiddle to 
Ron <vbg> nor do I see Ron breaking up with Hermione. Ronniekins may 
be immature now, but hey we still have three books to go and boys do 
eventually turn into men if they live ;-)

Penny wrote:
Again, you've misinterpreted the subtext argument. The subtext 
argument has to do with Hermione's feelings for Harry, which in & of 
itself does not support H/H as teens. Harry has no interest in her as 
yet.

Yes, I did figure out that H/H fans do not believe that Harry has any 
interest in Hermione as YET <vbg>. That was my point! 

So just to clarify, I think what Penny is saying, regarding FITD is:

FITD detracts from R/H because Ron likes Hermione, but Hermione does 
not like Ron, and we all agree that you need 2 people in a 
relationship.

FITD does not support H/H as TEENS, but it does support a *future* 
H/H pairing, since Harry does not like Hermione *as yet* but will 
return her feelings ENENTUALLY.

FITD makes sense for a FUTURE H/H pairing because H/H fans see H/H as 
more suited to each other than R/H.

I still do not see there being a FUTURE H/H pairing based on the 
subtext argument of Hermione's feelings for Harry because:

IMO H/H are not compatable as a romantic couple, nor does Hermione 
have feelings for Harry. WE R/H fans see R/H as far more suitable 
romantically than H/H <vgb>.

My fellow R/H-er's and I do not see Harry's interest in Hermione 
changing in the future, so Harry does not like her romantically now, 
nor will he in the future <vbg>. 

That my friends is the crux of the whole HP shipper debate in a 
nutshell, don't you agree (just to clarify, I meant that rhetorically 
<vbg>)? So, once again let us agree to disagree, since we seem to be 
going in circles with this :-)

I hope that I have clarified things from my previous posts somewhat :-
) As interesting, entertaining, and enjoyable as this *debate* has 
been, I have said nothing to change the minds of true H/H fans and 
nor was that my intention, so please do not take my words as personal 
attacks or in any manner other than light-hearted :-) 

The main point and bottom line of this and my previous posts is that 
we all agree that there are different INPTERPRETATIONS of who likes 
who, which is based on opinion and personal experience, so there 
really is no right or wrong <bg>. None of us are JKR, nor can we read 
her mind (as much as we all wish we could ;-). So, I am NOT saying 
H/H-er's are wrong. I am just voicing my reasons why I do not agree 
with H/H. My belief in R/H is as strong as any true H/H fans is in 
H/H <g>. MY stance on R/H is based on MY interpretation of the books, 
chats and interviews, just as H/H fans view is based on their 
interpretation, and I will leave it at that :-).

If I come across as confident and vocal regarding R/H <vbg>, it is 
because I believe that is the way JKR is headed (NOTE: the stress is 
on 'believe' ;-)). I believe I have posted the main reasons WHY I see 
R/H in my original post, so I will not repeat them here. Nor, do I 
wish to take the helm of the Good Ship R/H :-) Captain Kathy is doing 
a wonderful job, so I will leave her to take up the shipping debate. 
I am merely a lurker who delurked for a moment and now I will return 
to Sugar Quill Island, having said my piece. Happy sailing everyone!

Bouncer Firoza, who will now try to go back to delurking...




From maleninha at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 20:14:46 2001
From: maleninha at hotmail.com (maleninha at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:14:46 -0000
Subject: obssession quiz...
Message-ID: <9864rm+eevu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13802

This is the first time I post... And is a kind of silly question... I 
get the messages in my e-mail and I always read at the end "..% 
obssessed with Harry Potter". Is there some kind of quiz/test?? 
because if there is I absolutely HAVE to do it!
I don't have the time to read all the posts, so I'd really thank if 
someone could e-mail me...

mada (desperate to know how obssessed she is!!!)




From paxber at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 20:16:16 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:16:16 -0000
Subject: SHIP: RE: not so long response (was Long Post Re: R/HYule Ball
In-Reply-To: <3AA66DF2.86AAE9EA@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9864ug+vc08@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13803

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Most of us don't see H/H happening while they're teens.  If it did, 
it
> might work.  Then again, R/H might work too.  I just see R/H as 
being so
> fundamentally incompatible though that I don't see it working when
> they're 27 anymore than I see it working when they're 17.  Just my
> opinion.
> 
I found this fascinating, though that might just prove I'm an idiot. 
I had honestly (really, no sarcasm) never considered this 
point.....and you're right. R&H are *not* well-suited to each other. 
I think I've managed to overlook this through being so immersed in 
the classic paradigm used from Jane Austen to Hollywood, in which the 
couple who start out hating each other are obviously destined to fall 
in love. And there's no reason JKR has to follow that tradition.

That said, I would prefer to see them together, but mostly as a 
function of my own prejudices:
-- I'm a sucker for a happy ending.
-- Which means I wouldn't want to see Ron die
-- So he should end up with the girl in order to be happy, and I 
think even the H/Hers do agree that currently, R likes H.
Now, from what I said above, there wold have to be some changes (H 
mellowing, R maturing) for this to work, and I don't even want to try 
to predict what JKR weill do with her characters.

The main reason I don't see H/H working out is that I just don't feel 
any chemistry, any 'juice' there, suited though they may otherwise 
be. Clearly some fanfic authors disagree here though, and even if I'm 
right, this is a matter always subject to change.

I also find it interesting that so many of us seem to feel there has 
to be a romance at all. Judging by the questions Jo has gotten asked, 
we're far from alone in this. Do you think it's another case of 
Hollywood's influence, or is it entirely due to Rowling's hints in 
and out of canon? Compare this to The Dark is Rising series, where 
there is almost no hint of romance (well, aside from a very brief 
interaction between Bran and Jane).

Paula2, who has just written a whole page to say she doesn't know 
anything




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Wed Mar  7 20:28:34 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:28:34 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:ship:  JK  chat, R/H vs. H/H
Message-ID: <ad.7daa5fa.27d7f3f2@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13804

In a message dated 3/7/2001 12:49:22 PM Central Standard Time, 
slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com writes:


> I see Harry more as a solitairy guy. He just seems to have too many 
> issues to have a stable love life. But that's an argument I have said way 
> too many times before.
> 
> 

Hey MC,

(and anyone else who's interested)

I've feeling a teeny bit claustrophobic here in the U-boat No Ship, so I've 
built the SKHIFF* Defiance.  

It is a fun, adventurous and happy vessel that visits many varied ports and 
is never in drydock.  ;)  Wanna join me?


* Society to Keep Harry Independent, Free and unFettered    

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 21:39:13 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:39:13 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
Message-ID: <9869q1+fk0t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13805

Well I seem to have opened up a hornets nest here :-) But not to 
worry, I will respond and THEN go back to delurking :-)

Cassandra wrote:
So it's all right if you R/H ers interpret the subtext to conclude 
that Hermione likes Ron, but not okay if we interpret the subtext to 
conclude that she likes Harry? Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF; 
Hermione's are not. Her words and actions can be interpreted in 
various ways. This, IMHO, is part of what literary analysis is about.

Perhaps I missed something? If Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF, 
how is that 'subtext'? So how can R/H-er's and myself included have 
interpreted the subtext to conlude that Ron likes Hermione and 
Hermione likes Ron if 'Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF'? I 
believe that you misunderstood me :-) What I was saying is that IMO 
there is more evidence for a 'subtext' meaning between Ron and 
Hermione than there is for H/H, since I see the R/H interactions in 
GoF as subtle and implied, NOT 'clear' just as H/H fans see a subtext 
meaning. If Ron's feelings were as clear as you claim, then there 
really wouldn't be the 'Yule Ball' debate of late <g>. I have not 
said that it was 'okay' for us to interpret the subtext to conclude 
that Hermione likes Ron, but not for H/H fans to do say. I SAID that 
if we are to look at subtext, I (stress on the 'I') MO there is more 
evidence for an R/H subtext than an H/H one :-)

Cassandra wrote:
Well, just now I went through the archives and gave up after finding 
more than forty posts on exactly this topic. I am very unclear how 
you managed to miss them, as there have been several after Christmas. 
Perhaps you might want to email Penny off-list as she may have 
collected the message numbers for the relationships FAQ.

My, my I am sorry if I have offended you in wanting clarification 
on 'subtext' :-) I have read as many posts as I could including the 
ones after Christmas, but my brain may not be too quick since I still 
wanted clarification. But that's ok, Penny has already replied to my 
post and clarified FITD and subtext for me, so I won't have to bother 
Penny off-list :-) And for any further clarification I will wait for 
the relationships FAQ to be posted, okay :-)?

Cassandra wrote:
No again. It's got nothing to do with subtext. Nobody has argued that 
Harry shows feelings for Hermione which are present in the subtext. I 
really suggest that perhaps you go back and read the messages posted 
before Christmas. Otherwise you're coming into the discussion late 
and therefore may be assuming that points were made that were, in 
fact, never made.

I am sorry if my perusal of the message boards (which BTW I did read 
especially the ones before Christmas ;-) and my grasp of what they 
contain is not up to par, but my original post was made taking into 
account what points were made, or at least MY take on them. There are 
many of them and some are not as clear as others, so I apologize if I 
picked up on the wrong points. Thank you for clarifying that FITD has 
nothing to do with 'subtext'. 

What I was trying to say was that if FITD means that Hermione likes 
Harry, then for H/H to happen Harry will eventually have to like 
Hermione, right? Since I don't think Harry will like Hermione back, 
FITD makes no sense to me, that's all, even if it makes sense to H/H 
fans :-)

Cassandra wrote:
Okay, taking the dictionary definition of subtext a tad too literally 
here, aren't we? Especially since, as I already pointed out, nobody 
has argued that Harry likes Hermione. It has repeatedly been argued 
that the subtext indicates that Hermione likes Harry, meaning that we 
are interpreting this from her actions as the text never comes out 
with the sentence HERMIONE LIKES HARRY. As for those actions, I am 
afraid I cannot be bothered to repeat them for the ninetieth time. 
They ARE in the archives. This is why the search function is so 
useful. 

It seems I cannot please :-) On the one hand I am being chastised for 
not 'reading' the archives properly and on the other hand using a 
dictionary definiton of subtext as taking things a 'tad too 
literally' <vbg>. Again, you have misunderstood me. So, I will try 
once again to clarify myself :-) As dense as I may seem to you <vbg>, 
I did pick up that 'nobody has argued that Harry likes Hermione'. 
That was my POINT. If 'the subtext indicates that Hermione likes 
Harry, meaning that we are interpreting this from her actions as the 
text never comes out with the sentence HERMIONE LIKES HARRY', it can 
be argued in the same way that HERMIONE LIKES RON since the text 
never comes out with the sentence Hermione likes Ron ;-) All I was 
saying was that R/H fans see Hermione liking Ron and Ron liking 
Hermione, therefore WE do not see a subtext for Hermione liking 
Harry :-)

Cassandra wrote:
*clears throat* What? The fact that it is clearly stated in the text 
that Hermione has never kissed Harry before means that there isn't 
any subtext? Subtext is in part the intepretation put on ACTIONS in 
the text; the clause that Hermione has never done this before 
modifies/describes the action, but is not itself the action. The kiss 
is the action and is open to subtextual interpretations exactly like 
the subtextual interpretation you put on it in the following 
paragraph. Or did you not realize that's what you were doing?

Well, that is why I gave the 'dictionary' meaning of subtext in my 
post, just so that readers would now where I was coming from ;-) But 
thank you for YOUR definition of subtext :-) What I said was that the 
KISS can be interpreted subtextually to mean Hermione has feelings 
for Harry, but NOT solely to mean that Hermione has feelings for 
Harry. The ACTION of kissing could be intrepreted two ways, as 
Hermione having romantic feelings for Harry or only friendship. So, 
yes I agree that the action of the kiss is OPEN to interpretation. 
That was my POINT <vbg>. The statement that 'she had done something 
she had never done before' WAS stressed in one of those earlier posts 
you have suggested I read ;-) so I was just coming back to that. The 
statement cannot be interpreted, but the action can :-)

Cassandra wrote:
And if this isn't a subtextual interpretation of the kiss, I don't 
know what is. So Hermione having kissed Harry proves she doesn't like 
him, because if she did like him, she'd be far too paralyzed with 
fear to even go near him? Instead, she would probably just have 
fainted at his feet. Or perhaps she would have glared at him, since 
her repeated glaring at Ron seems to be interpreted as a sign of deep 
affection by R/H ers.  

Well, once again you have misunderstood me :-) I did not say that 
Hermione kissing Harry PROVES she doesn't like him, I SAID that was 
my OPINION and how I interpreted the KISS. I believe we have already 
established that it is okay to intrepret things differently, or am I 
wrong in that assumption as well <vbg>? As for Hermione glaring at 
Ron being interpreted as a sign of deep affection by R/H ers, the 
ACTION of the glare can be intrepreted as indicating that Ron gets 
under Hermione's skin, so yes, in essence the 'glare' can be thought 
of a sign of deep affection <vbg>.

Cassandra wrote:
I think you mean "borne out." "Bourne" is something quite different. 
Also, I disagree, but then, we knew that.
 
Thank you so much for correcting my spelling and giving a further 
definition of 'subtext' earlier on :-) I am glad that I was clear 
enough in my ramble for you to understand the meaning behind what I 
was saying :-) And of course, you disagree, this would not be a 
debate if you did <vbg>.

Cassandra wrote:
No. I don't agree at all. I'm sorry about that. First off, I'm rather 
shocked that so much weight is being put on something JKR said in 
chat. As has been stated here before, chat is not canon. Also, my 
personal guess would be that she did not have a dictionary with her 
at the time open to the page with the definition for "between." I 
also cannot believe that we are expected to change our entire view of 
the series based on an offhand comment she made in chat. Books are 
living things in the process of writing; they change and grow, and my 
personal opinion is that she gives such evasive answers partly 
because she has not yet made up her mind and doesn't want to get 
boxed into a corner. 
And I myself would never claim I was "clarifying" something for JKR 
(how unfortunate that she didn't take the time to clarify it herself, 
tsk tsk, good thing WE know what she REALLY meant) unless I'd talked 
to her about it personally. As far as I'm concerned, if I were an 
author, I might easily have said that there was something between Ron 
and Hermione even if all I meant was that Ron likes Hermione and 
Hermione had feelings of affection/guilt/confusion in return.

Since you do not consider what JKR says in a chat as 'canon', that is 
fine, but my post was meant to just 'clarify' MY stance on why I 
believe JKR is headed towards R/H. I would never dream of claiming 
to 'clarify' something for JKR either, so again (surprise, surprise)
you have misundertood me :-) As for defining 'between', that was once 
again to clarify MY interpretation of that statement. Sorry, if I 
ruffled and feathers, but as I stressed in my original post, my 
comments were meant in to be taken light-heartedly and NOT in hopes 
of converting die-hard H/H shippers ;-)

Cassandra wrote:
*sigh* Yes, they are platonic in Book 4, which was what she was 
referring to in the chat. I don't think I see anyone disagreeing with 
that. Ron and Hermione are platonic all through Books 1-3. Does that, 
in your mind, mean they'll never be anything else?
Didn't think so.

Well, umm, that's what I said didn't I, that just because they were 
platonic now, didn't meant that they would remain so forever :-) You 
have taken my comment out of context, since the point I was trying to 
make was that SO FAR what JKR has said in the chats that I mentioned 
in my original post has been BORNE out in the books: she said Harry 
and Hermione will not date in Book IV and by golly they didn't did 
they and yes, H/H and R/H have been platonic from Books 1-3. So, so 
far JKR has followed canon :-)

Cassandra wrote:
To me, it doesn't seem like a common sense interpretation, it seems 
like a bizarre one. I didn't take the "anyone else" comment to mean 
Ron, I took it as a blanket reference to the hormones springing up 
all around in GoF. Ron's feelings for Fleur, Krum's for Hermione, 
Harry's for Cho, Cho's for Cedric, etc etc ad infinitum. I don't 
think she was being all that specific. And again, far too much weight 
put on offhand comments made in chat. Also, I cannot see why on earth 
she wouldn't reference a character we haven't met yet. Why not?

Well, once again my interpretation is different from yours, no 
surprise there!

Cassandra wrote:
This just doesn't make any sense to me. It seems to be a chain of 
faulty reasoning. Cedric's death does not rule out Cho. The fact that 
Harry and Hermione are platonic in Book 4 doesn't rule out Hermione. 
Nor does anything JKR says rule out the possibility of the 
introduction of a new female character. This seems to be the 
arguement that Harry and Ginny will get together, not because they 
are comaptible, not because there's any evidence he likes her, but 
because she is the only living female character not ruled out by a 
comment made in chat.
Okay....

Since, you yourself don't hold much with offhand comments made in 
chats by JKR, I can see why you would see my 'reasoning' as faulty :-
) That's okay, like I said these are MY opinions :-)

Cassadra wrote:
WHERE is this coming from? Who ever said she was in love with even 
one person?
 
I was just following my 'faulty reasoning' :-) And, ummm, did you not 
just say that H/H fans interpret Hermione as having feelings for 
Harry, and does not 'having feelings' hopefully lead to love? 
If 'having feelings' will not lead to love, then you're right, who 
ever said she was in love with even ONE person, let alone two <vbg>.

Cassandra wrote:
Good Lord, the poor woman, are we supposed to assume that the 
interpretations put on what she said in chat are gospel truth? The 
fact is that she said a beloved character would die in GoF, and that 
didn't really happen. Does that make her a liar?

Well, beloved is open to interpretion <vbg>, since JKR said she cried 
when she wrote Cedric's death, so I interpret that as a beloved 
character FOR JKR dying in GoF, although not MY beloved character :-
). And I am not assuming 'that interpretatins put on what JKR said in 
chat are gospel truth'. What I AM saying is that what JKR has said in 
chats is helpful IN MY OPINION, in helping ME interpret the HP books, 
that is all :-) 

Cassandra wrote:
She hasn't said much of anything at all. 

Yup, that's why what she does say helps ME to interpret the HP 
books ;-)

Cassandra wrote:
The fact is that we will probably never know, since the books will 
only take us to age 17 and I strongly doubt anyone will be getting 
married or that we will ever find out what happens to anyone's 
relationships. And dedicated H/H fan and ship debater that I am, I 
just can't read any farther. I think I've said what I had to say, and 
more besides. Peace out.

Yes, the books will only take us to age 17, but I am sure JKR will 
not leave us fans in a lurch, and still manage to hint the future. I 
am sorry if my post offends you <vbg> since you 'just can't read any 
further' but as I said in my original post it was not intended to 
offend, just to offer a differing viewpoint about why I am so 
adamantly R/H :-) Since I feel I have responded as much as I can to 
your post Cassandra, and you have said all that you had to say, I 
will wish you happy sailing and go back to lurking, as all this ship 
debate, as fun as it is, is very time consuming. Bon Voyage!

Firoza :-)







From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 21:41:43 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 13:41:43 -0800
Subject: SHIP: RE: not so long response (was Long Post Re: R/HYule Ball
Message-ID: <F2887M6ggPSDpTgzeKu0000766f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13806



F:
<<I will have to disagree with the assumption that FITD detracts from
R/H for the same reason that Penny sees H/H *could* happen later,
i.e., suitability of the couples. We have three people, Ron,
Hermione, and Harry. R/H fans see R/H because they see a MUTUAL
attraction between Ron and Hermione, not just Hermione liking Ron or
vice versa. Penny (and perhaps other H/H fans as well) see Hermione
liking Harry but *could* see H/H following later based on the belief
that 'the two characters as being very well-suited for one another
eventually'. R/H fans see the two characters being very well-suited
for one another now AND eventually <vgb>. So, if Ron likes Hermione
and Hermione likes Harry, and Harry likes someone else/no one yet,
that to me does not detract from R/H because R/H-er's see a MUTUAL
attraction, not just Ron liking Hermione. If it takes 2 people to
make a relationship to work and Hermione likes Harry and not Ron,
then I agree R/H will not occur :-) So, we are back to square one
again, since R/H-er's see a MUTUAL attraction at this point in time,
while Penny and possibly other H/H fans, see a FUTURE relationship
based on how compatible Harry and Hermione are as a couple in their
view, so I will just leave it at that :-)>>

Gross generalization. Technicly I'm a crew member of the good ship R/H 
(though none of them will admit they know me), and I don't see a mutual 
attraction. We haven't been given any evidence either way as to Hermione's 
feelings. I think that we can see the Fleur epidsode as giving weight to the 
R/H side, but the kiss balance those scales, if not tip them more in the H/H 
favor. As I have said before, Harry isn't as close with Hermione as he is 
with Ron, and doesn't seem to pick up on her feelings like he does with Ron. 
Besides, she's a girl and all of that, so...yeah. It would be rather akward 
for them to discuss her feelings about Ron, don't you think?

F:
<<As I mentioned in my post to Carole, R/H breaking up (whether to make
way for H/H or just because people do break up ;-) would indeed make
a great fanfic. The scenarios Penny has outlined above ARE great
scenarios and all very plausible, but I believe we differ in how we
see he canon eventually going (an understatement of massive
proportions <vbg>). I and my fellow shipmates see R/H in the canon
staying together as MORE plausible than their breaking up due to any
of the various, different scenarios we fans may come up with, that's
all. As fun as it is to predict what JKR will do, I have great faith
in JKR's imagination so I doubt that any one of us will actually
predict what she will do correctly, as I am sure you will agree ;-)
But, hey that's what fanfics are for, to explore all possible
scenarios and plausible outcomes>>

*sigh* I know I am not * that * much of a black sheep when I say that there 
is a real possibility that Ron and Hermione will hook up and not stay 
together. If there is hope for their relationship, I only hope they keep 
away from romance for awhile, so they can grow up and get some experiance 
under their belts. Woah. That was not ment how it sounded.



<snip> "That my friends is the crux of the whole HP shipper debate in a
nutshell, don't you agree (just to clarify, I meant that rhetorically
<vbg>)? So, once again let us agree to disagree, since we seem to be
going in circles with this"

Er, we can't agree to disagree. That's why we're here, debating over it. 
It's just too much fun to let it rest.

Oh, and Elizabeth - I can't currently switch ships. I am one of the few 
Harry/Draco shippers. In cannon I think he'll be alone, * but * who will put 
in inapropriate H/D comments if I stop?


MC
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Mar  7 21:42:16 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:42:16 -0000
Subject: SHIP: couples 'lasting' in the HP world...
In-Reply-To: <002501c0a70c$33a0db80$e579d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9869vo+l1lq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13807

> Carole wrote:
>>  My one commmnet is that H/H is not just wishful thinking on our 
part any more than R/H is wishful thinking on your part.  JKR could 
go either or no way on this issue.
> I do however take issue with this statement:
> 
> firoza wrote:
> >  R/H is the way JKR is headed IMO, and since none of us REALLY
> believe that the canon HP is a soap opera (as much as we enjoy HP
> fanfics of this genre ;-)), it serves no purpose for JKR to build up
> R/H and then switch to H/H post-Hogwarts, as some H/H fans believe
> will happen.
> 
> Carole wrote: 
> Why not? There are loads of reasons why she might do R/H and then 
tear them assunder.  Including but not limited to exploring feelings 
of loss and betrayal and individuals deciding to do what is good for 
them vs. what is good for the wizard community as a whole.
> We can't possibly know what JKR has up her sleeve as far as 
relationships and their repercussions.   I see no reason for your 
confidence that while OBHWF (one big happy weasley family) might 
happen, why it necessarily will be preserved. 
>
> firoza commented:
> Nor do we think that R/H or H/G when they eventually
> DO get together will break up and not last. That is not in keeping
> with the tone of the HP books, however 'unrealistic' that may be and
> despite all the fanfics out there <vbg>.
>  
> Carole's comment:
> Again Why not? Could you predict the tone of GoF from the previous 
books.  There are still 3 massive books out there to be written.  I 
think you give way too little credit to JKR's imagination.  No, 
romance is not the prime theme of these books, but I think it will 
play a role if even a rather minor one.  But since there is just the 
beginnings of evidence for these relationships to happen at all, how 
can you predict that once these relationships (that you are so sure 
of) form they will last forever? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Here's me:
Actually, I can see JKR have some of the characters in relationships 
in books 5 and 6, and not necessarily keeping them together 'til the 
end of 7 and beyond.  Death would seem to be the most likely cause of 
a relationship ending, but yes, there are other ways this can happen, 
too.  What I would expect, however, is that -whomever- she puts 
together as a couple by the end of 7, will stay together.  Divorce 
hasn't been introduced in the series yet, and the only abandonment 
we've seen is Vold's father and Hagrid's mother.  Since we haven't 
met her yet, who can say what she'll be like.  Other married couples 
seem to have been together for quite some time, with no impending 
signs of a breakup.  So, to me, if JKR really doesn't want to return 
to HP, I would think that the couples, if any, at the end, will be 
intended to give us the impression that their relationships/marriages 
will be lasting.  I'll also say that since GoF is the pivotal book in 
the series, and that so far she has been dealing with the romantic 
subplots very gradually, it doesn't look as though she's planning to 
do something different later on.  I know about JKR pulling the rug 
out and all that, but this usually seems to happen within the main 
storyline of a single book, e.g. the 'bad guy' isn't who we all 
expected it to be, etc.  It seems if JKR tries to do this with 
romantic couples, while that might be fun for her to write, it might 
seem too out-of-the-blue and unsatisfying to the story as a whole.  
IOW, if she's been leading us one way through half the series now, 
and maybe even more once we get 5, then to suddenly change the 
couples around might diminish the story's integrity.

I've written enough for now, and if my thoughts are unclear, which 
would be likely, let me know.  I'll try again.

Kelley






From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Wed Mar  7 21:49:25 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 16:49:25 EST
Subject: Directing HP
Message-ID: <fe.34b28cb.27d806e5@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13808

In a message dated Wed, 7 Mar 2001  2:13:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, wings909 at aol.com writes:

<< In a message dated 03/07/2001 2:07:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hedwigthecat at aol.com writes:

<< Chris Columbus (who was not the first choice to direct this film)  >>


Who was the first choice?  Just curious..

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor>>



Steven Spielberg.

Due to another Warner Bros. project in the works, Spielberg was unable to take on Harry Potter.

~Hedwig~



From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Wed Mar  7 22:02:46 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:02:46 -0000
Subject: House-badges/devices
In-Reply-To: <3AA68B9E.B973A915@texas.net>
Message-ID: <986b66+85bd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13809

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
[snip]
> Calm yourself. 

I was presumably a bit cranky that day - our computer is fond of 
crashing, freeezing (meaning that it doe not even respond to 
Ctrl+Alt+del), and at times has a negative bearing on the mood of the 
day.  That day was one of those.  Also, I am not always good enough 
at throwing in emoticons to brighten the tone of my posts.

> Where do you get that? I don't recall the orientation of 
> Gryffindor's lion being mentioned specifically anywhere (although I 
> could be wrong--Steve?). I think it *is* referred to as rampant 
> (for you non-herald types, one back foot down, the rest in the air) 
> instead of salient (both back feet down), which is what you usually 
> get when people try to draw a heraldic lion. This lion is, in fact, 
> correctly rampant.
> 
> It does face to dexter (the right of the shield, but from the 
> position of the person who would be HOLDING it, i.e., the guy 
> behind it, thus to the *viewer's* left). However, facing to dexter 
> is the correct assumed default. Facing the other way would 
> be "rampant to sinister," and generally must be specified. Again, 
> does it say somewhere in the books that I'm forgetting, that the 
> lion faces to sinister (or to the viewer's right)?
> 
> On the Hogwarts device, the quartering that combines all the House
> devices, the lion is depicted as to sinister, but I think that was 
> done for visual balance--another bit of artistic license.

Yes, I also think it is referred to as rampant somewhere, but is it 
referred to as rampant when describing a Gryffindor-banner, or when 
describing the hogwarts arms?  I do not remember.  I do not think 
that the use of the term rampant in the books is as strictly adhering 
to the rules of heraldry as it would be in a textbook on heraldry, 
and therefore rampant to sinister would not encessarily be described 
as such.  I think the word rampant when used in the books should 
probably be taken as a general description of an animal standing 
upright (which is what my dictionary gives as the meaning 
of "rampant" when used about animals).  Given that the Hogwarts arms 
are the only visual evidence of the Gryffindor lion in the books, I 
still hold rampant to sinister as the mroe correct choice.

> They quartered the background, for some unknown reason, presumably 
> to include both the House colors on the field, which makes part of 
> the gold lion have to compete with a gold field. 

[snip]

> > The Ravenclaw device, for some reason, does not show a bronze 
> > eagle displayed - it shows a black crow perched on a twig (at 
> > least it looks more like a crow, or sparrow, or magpie, than a 
> > rawen or eagle).
> 
> No, you're right, this is a raven. This is the most arrant departure
> from the book, in that they totally redesigned it.

I must have typed that without thinking too clearly - obviously, if 
it is similar to a crow, then it is similar to a raven (and given the 
context probably is a raven).  What happened was that I was mixing up 
ravens and hawks - i.e. connecting the word raven with the physical 
image of a hawk.  And you didn't even call me on that one! :-)

[snip]

> Harder to say why they departed from the Hufflepuff colors of white 
> and black, 

[snip]

But were not Hufflepuff's colours black and yellow in the first 
place?  A black badger in a yellow field, I believe.


> They could, by the way, have improved both identifiability and 
> contrast by "fixing" the position of the badger, but they stayed 
> with rampant regardant (looking back over its shoulder) which I 
> believe is specified in the books, so vivat to them on that point 
> (is it, Steve?).

It is shown visually as rampant regardant - the only memory in my 
head of a description of the hufflepuff device is that of a balck 
badger on yellow.  The best improvement to contrast would of course 
have been to retain the field as uniform yellow.  

[snip]

> They did. Or have you not seen the nightmares of which I spoke? Does
> anyone have a merchandise URL that shows those lozengy-background,
> modern-logo head-outline things? In "cool" modern colors, not even 
> close to heraldic? I was almost ill right there in the store.

[snip]

I think I have seen them, and I believe they are in the graphics-
group - I seem to recall something along those lines from the 
pictures from that WB display-show before Christmas...  

I got to see a picture of the mugs, however - those with some form of 
shields on them.  I think you've seen hem - you made a reference in a 
previous post to some calendar would-be heraldry for Gryffindor, 
sounding a lot like the description of the Gryffindor mug.  If you 
care for a second look at these, they can be seen at 
http://www.hpgalleries.com/muggallery.htm

I saw those for the first time a couple of days after I posted the 
original post of this thread, and all of a sudden, I was much, much 
less bothered by the devices for the movie.

Still, I think they would have made happier choices by simply 
duplicating what has been displayed at least in th UK-editions for 
the house-arms.




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Wed Mar  7 22:11:14 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:11:14 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: RE: not so long response (was Long Post Re: R/H...
Message-ID: <b9.c11c21e.27d80c02@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13810

In a message dated 3/7/2001 3:44:37 PM Central Standard Time, 
slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com writes:


> Oh, and Elizabeth - I can't currently switch ships. I am one of the few 
> Harry/Draco shippers. In cannon I think he'll be alone, * but * who will 
> put 
> in inapropriate H/D comments if I stop?
> 
> 
> 

Understandable, MC ... and someone does need to captain the H/D ship round 
here.  Please feel free to pull alongside the Defiance anytime ... Harry's 
awfully fond of those visits with Draco!

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Wed Mar  7 22:38:50 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:38:50 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
In-Reply-To: <985s1q+t5u3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <986d9q+qcmr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13811


Cassandra -

Hooray for all 30 year olds who love HP as much as we do!

Anyway, I am also a die hard R/H shipper, and cannot for the life of 
me see into a H/H thing.  It just doesn't work.

The kiss - ah, the kiss!  Made no impression on me.  I though Hermione 
gave Harry a "I'm glad you're okay and will be worrying about you over 
the summer and I'm quite maternal" sort of kiss.  Hermione can show 
affections to Harry that Ron cannot without being called a "swotty 
little Nancy boy".

I wouldn't want Harry and Hermione to date anyway.  Something about 
that is stupid to me.  'Nuff said.

--Jenny from Rav




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 22:42:20 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 14:42:20 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: RE: not so long response (was Long Post Re: R/H...
Message-ID: <F218tSqUETtXUKykXXe0000782e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13812




 > Oh, and Elizabeth - I can't currently switch ships. I am one of the few
 > Harry/Draco shippers. In cannon I think he'll be alone, * but * who will
 > put
 > in inapropriate H/D comments if I stop?
 >
 >
 >

<Understandable, MC ... and someone does need to captain the H/D ship round
here.  Please feel free to pull alongside the Defiance anytime ... Harry's
awfully fond of those visits with Draco!>

*snerk* *cough* *choke, for good mesure* I hardly call myself the captian of 
H/D....hardly. High ranking officer is more like it. Third mate? Something 
like that. But no one takes me seriously. Hey, anything is possible, baby. 
Discrimination! Discrimination!

Morsus "MC" Crustum, who wonders why she feels the need to further alienate 
herself.
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From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 22:45:36 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:45:36 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  RE: couples 'lasting' in the HP world...
Message-ID: <986dmg+f9n0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13813

My original comment:
> Nor do we think that R/H or H/G when they eventually
> DO get together will break up and not last. That is not in keeping
> with the tone of the HP books, however 'unrealistic' that may be and
> despite all the fanfics out there <vbg>.

Kelley wrote:
Here's me:
Actually, I can see JKR have some of the characters in relationships 
in books 5 and 6, and not necessarily keeping them together 'til the 
end of 7 and beyond.  Death would seem to be the most likely cause of 
a relationship ending, but yes, there are other ways this can happen, 
too.  What I would expect, however, is that -whomever- she puts 
together as a couple by the end of 7, will stay together.  Divorce 
hasn't been introduced in the series yet, and the only abandonment 
we've seen is Vold's father and Hagrid's mother.  Since we haven't 
met her yet, who can say what she'll be like.  Other married couples 
seem to have been together for quite some time, with no impending 
signs of a breakup.  So, to me, if JKR really doesn't want to return 
to HP, I would think that the couples, if any, at the end, will be 
intended to give us the impression that their relationships/marriages 
will be lasting.  I'll also say that since GoF is the pivotal book in 
the series, and that so far she has been dealing with the romantic 
subplots very gradually, it doesn't look as though she's planning to 
do something different later on.  I know about JKR pulling the rug 
out and all that, but this usually seems to happen within the main 
storyline of a single book, e.g. the 'bad guy' isn't who we all 
expected it to be, etc.  It seems if JKR tries to do this with 
romantic couples, while that might be fun for her to write, it might 
seem too out-of-the-blue and unsatisfying to the story as a whole.  
IOW, if she's been leading us one way through half the series now, 
and maybe even more once we get 5, then to suddenly change the 
couples around might diminish the story's integrity.


Yup, that is what I basically meant when I said that I see R/H and 
H/G staying together in the long term :-) 

Firoza :-)





From rboswell at mediaone.net  Wed Mar  7 22:52:25 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:52:25 -0500
Subject: Ron/Hermione and other paraphernalia
References: <983953794.666.61253.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <003601c0a759$47c9a860$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13814

    Woah~ Brace yourselves, long post ahead!

    ::smiles:: Something has been dedicated to *me*!  ::gloats:: Heeheeee! I
have my own song thing! YAYAYAY! Thank you, thank you, thank you Caius!  And
it's super cute too!  :-)

    ARGGHH! My argument.down the toilet! ::sobs:: Good job, Alicia!  You
have a very good point, and I am yet again dislodged in a rowboat between
the H/Hr and R/Hr ships.   But, I still firmly hold that JKR *is* going for
R/Hr in canon.  I have to applaud Morsus and Firoza immensely as well for
their two knuts into the R/Hr ship, I was looking all day for the quote that
Firoza had from JKR:
"Oh, I like this one. 'Do Harry and Hermione have a date?' No. Harry and
Hermione are very platonic. But I won't speak for anyone else, nudge nudge
wink wink."  Very VERY strong point, Firoza!
    I personally don't have only friends who are guys.but I do have some
very good friends who are guys.  Alicia and Celeste have some superiority in
that area to me.  From my perspective, though, I openly state that Ron does
like Hermione.  There are so many obvious places where that is stated in the
book, and there is no denying it.  Whether Ron consciously knows that yet is
another thing.  His sub-consciousness is totally infatuated with Hermione,
but he's in denial.  That substantiates for the pig-headedness,
impulsiveness, and idiocy in the situation with Hermione and Krum.  I have
three conflicting views of Hermione that I will have to clarify to myself
sometime in the future. One is of a completely outspoken and empowered girl
who will tell people her point of view whether they like it or not, and the
second is of a more reserved but still straightforward girl who argues a lot
of the time (be it SPEW or Ron, etc.).  Basically, on a scale of 1-10 in
straightforwardness, one Hermione is a 7, one an 8.5, and one a strong 10.
All of them have the possibility to be just royally pissed at Ron, or the
possibility to be insulted and trying to tell Ron inconspicuously that what
he said really hurt her in more than one way.  There is a lot of room for
interpretation, and it all depends on your point of view.
    I don't agree that Hermione would have equally lashed out with such
force against Dean or Seamus as she did to Ron.  Ron is one of her closest
friends, and naturally she feels more comfortable saying things to him, if
they're good or not.  If Harry had done the same thing, I think he would
have had an easier time as well, even though he's Hermione's friend.  Note:
I THINK.  I don't know this for sure, because Hermione hasn't been royally
pissed off at Harry nor had any of the forceful confrontations she's had
with Ron.  Hermione has arguments naturally with Ron, and that's part of
their friendship, so I think she jumped into full-argument mode with Ron
easier than she would have with Harry.

Some R/Hr interpretation points:

"Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't you?"
yelled Hermione. "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does,
and not as a last resort!".
Ron mouthed soundlessly like a goldfish out of water."Well.well--that just
proves--completely missed the point."

 Ron lost the argument that he started, noticed he was being an ass, and
found a hint of jealously toward Krum coming out.  But, one other point is,
was Hermione (un)intentionally trying to make Ron really upset by appealing
to the fact that he likes her, or just trying to prove her point.  To quote
Morsus,
<snip>
She may have some hidden feelings for him, and that could be a part of this
statement. Then again, she might have been trying to humilite him by letting
on that she knew how he felt about her. It might have been an unintentional
below-the-belt (<g>) hit on her part.
<unsnip>

"Known what?" said Ron quickly. "You haven't been mixing up Love Potions,
have you?"
"Don't be stupid," Hermione snapped, starting to pound up her beetles again.
"No, it's just.how did she know Viktor asked me to visit him over the
summer?"
 Hermione  blushed scarlet as she said this and determinedly avoided Ron's
eyes.
 "What?" said Ron, dropping his pestle with a loud clunk..
"And what did you say?" Ron repeated, pounding his pestle down so hard it
dented the desk.
 "Well, I was too busy seeing whether you and Harry were okay to---"

Lots of stuff here! =-).  Ron questions Hermione, Hermione snaps at Ron,
then blushes and won't look at him, Ron beats up his desk.  Now, Ron is
either very jealous here or in big-brother-mode.  Hermione is embarrassed
that Ron's defenses are going up.  Now, why Hermione's embarrassed because
of Ron is either that she isn't going to go with Krum and she's flattered
that Ron is worried or because Ron is making a big deal out of nothing (to
her).  This could be a sign that Hermione likes Ron because she avoids his
eyes and gets shy-ish, and it is a sign that Ron likes Hermione.  I could
probably elaborate.but I have math homework to do so this post is in haste.

 "If you don't know," said Ron scathingly, "then I'm not going to tell you."

 Hmm, this most probably isn't fraternizing with the enemy he's talking
about here.  He's jealous and he's pouting.

 Well, for the time being I'm running out of arguments for the R/Hr ship.
Just out of curiosity, is there any evidence to Hermione liking Harry other
than the kiss on the cheek?  I honestly don't think that can amount to
anything, seeing as in Miami a kiss on the cheek is like a handshake.
Maybe it's different in the UK?  I have no idea...but in my opinion its just
a friendly kiss.  Well, signing off!

---Becca, whose fingers are getting tired already and has to finish a
Biology essay.----




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 23:11:45 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 15:11:45 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron/Hermione and other paraphernalia
Message-ID: <F299AX7Ur5qWn3GCIFo000020ba@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13815



Becca:
  "<snip> Well, for the time being I'm running out of arguments for the R/Hr 
ship. Just out of curiosity, is there any evidence to Hermione liking Harry 
other than the kiss on the cheek? <snip>"

Well, aside from the kiss (which is a pretty big "aside from"), there is the 
fact that when they are in the Quiddich top box, Ron and Harry go ga-ga over 
the veela. Hermione pulls Harry back down and apparently would be happy to 
see Ron jump right over the side. When Harry and Ron get into The Fight, she 
seems to spend a lot of time with him. And then there's just the fact she 
never calls him a git, etc., which she calls Ron daily. There are more, I 
know it, but I can't think of any.

Confusing everyone as to where exactly her loyalties are,

MC

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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  7 23:40:50 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 23:40:50 -0000
Subject: Simple H/H confusion
Message-ID: <986gu2+ha3j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13816

Here's my shipping position up front:  I see the canon drifting R/H, 
but I wouldn't put money on it continuing to do so, JKR being the 
gloriously unpredictable writer that she is, nor do I care a 
shrivelfig whether it does.  

Firoza was ISO explanations of the subtext suggesting that Hermione 
likes Harry...

Cassie wrote:

>Well, just now I went through the archives and gave up after finding 
>more than forty posts on exactly this topic. I am very unclear how 
>you managed to miss them, as there have been several after Christmas. 

I haven't seen them either.  Maybe it's been gone over so many times 
that H/Hers assume that when they allude to this subtext, it's clear 
what they mean.  I'm open to seeing it (since joining HPforGU, I've 
looked for it as I've reread the books--and even found it here and 
there!) but since joining this list just before Christmas, I don't 
believe I've seen a simple list of phrases/incidents/etc. that support 
Hermione Likes Harry.

I know such a list is coming in the FAQ, and I don't want to throw 
gasoline on what seems to be a fire in a jam jar...I just want you to 
know that it's not only rabid R/Hers who plain old just don't get the 
H/H argument.

Where's that Ron/Harry ship?  Let me climb aboard before this ol' dock 
town goes up in flames.  Hell, I bet even Hermione would want to join 
me, just so this thing gets settled.

Amy Z

with a new sig, a cautionary tale about the utter unreliability of 
predictions . . . even by a Seer like Ron:
------------------------------------------------------
  "So you mean the Stone's only safe as long as 
Quirrell stands up to Snape?" said Hermione in alarm.
  "It'll be gone by next Tuesday," said Ron.
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------------




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Mar  7 23:47:31 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 23:47:31 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
In-Reply-To: <986d9q+qcmr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <986haj+6r34@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13817

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> 
> Cassandra -
> 
> Hooray for all 30 year olds who love HP as much as we do!
> 
> Anyway, I am also a die hard R/H shipper, and cannot for the life 
of 
> me see into a H/H thing.  It just doesn't work.
> 
> The kiss - ah, the kiss!  Made no impression on me.  I though 
Hermione 
> gave Harry a "I'm glad you're okay and will be worrying about you 
over 
> the summer and I'm quite maternal" sort of kiss.  Hermione can show 
> affections to Harry that Ron cannot without being called a "swotty 
> little Nancy boy".
> I wouldn't want Harry and Hermione to date anyway.  Something about 
> that is stupid to me.  'Nuff said.
> 
> --Jenny from Rav

***
*scratches head.* I am not thirty. Nor do I think there is anything 
to the H/H kiss. Never have I thought there was anything to it. All I 
said was that it is an action open  to interpretation. My 
interpretation is that it doesn't mean much.

Cassandra




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Mar  7 23:50:27 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 23:50:27 -0000
Subject: Raven vs. Eagle
In-Reply-To: <3AA68B9E.B973A915@texas.net>
Message-ID: <986hg3+1phf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13818

> I do take issue with using a raven rather than an eagle, but 
considering how such projects are usually "dumbed down" for the 
audience, if this rather irresistible cant is the only major sin of 
change the designers did, I will forgive. They did what it seems the 
movie is determined to do, kept the character of the work while 
adapting it for a movie audience. I'm actually quite pleased with 
this.
> 
> --Amanda

Did we ever learn why Ravenclaw's mascot is an eagle rather than a 
raven?  I  thought this was a bit strange, and would assume this was 
deliberately changed for the movie ("why not have a raven as the 
mascot for Ravenclaw?").  Has JKR ever commented on this?

Kelley





From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 00:06:51 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:06:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownUps]  Pin the tail on Dudley
Message-ID: <F23ZzapQA8U6CuyzC0b0000ea16@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13819

This is a fun post, but I would not deem it necessary for the OT chat list 
so I post it here.  My physics teacher's son is a HUGE HP fan(heh, i even 
bought him and his sister HP posters, brown noser that I am) Anyways, his 
son's birthday is coming up, and he is having an HP themed party.  They are 
simulating the tri-wizard tournament by going lasertagging(the maze) and a 
lot of other really fun stuff.  They got all the HP party supplies.  Well 
anyways, he told me that his son came up with the idea of "pin the tail on 
dudley" where they are going to pin a pigs tail on a picture of a fat, "pig 
in a wig".  I thought this was hysterical, and I spent most of my 
electronics class laughing about it.
Anyways, for those of you who are lucky enough to have kids to share HP 
with(when I read harry, thats the only time i want a kid<vbg>), this would 
be a really fun idea, or hey, even for yourselves.  Signe and I may have to 
play when her birthday comes up soon....

Stephanie
Who is shamelessly(ok fine, with a little shame)plugging her fic "The Good, 
The Bad, The Malfoy" written under her pen name "Lady Malfoy"  I need 
reviews!!  I get all these hits, but all the mean people on ff.net read and 
dont review.
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 00:14:46 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:14:46 -0000
Subject: House-badges/devices
In-Reply-To: <986b66+85bd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <986itm+fh2a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13820

pengolodh_sc at y... wrote:

> Still, I think they would have made happier choices by simply 
> duplicating what has been displayed at least in th UK-editions for 
> the house-arms.

Does anyone know who drew this?  I really like it, and the artist 
isn't credited.  We don't have them in the US editions, sadly.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------
  "See, there was this wizard who went . . . bad.  
As bad as you could go.  Worse.  Worse than worse.  
His name was . . ."
  Hagrid gulped, but no words came out.
  "Could you write it down?" Harry suggested.
  "Nah--can't spell it."
                  -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------




From StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 00:19:45 2001
From: StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com (Stephanie Malfoy)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:19:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Directing HP
Message-ID: <F2838pkpLkTgbLYluLC00002342@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13821


>Steven Spielberg.
>
>Due to another Warner Bros. project in the works, Spielberg was unable to 
>take on Harry Potter.
>
>~Hedwig~

Ahem, heaven forbid i take onto the rumor mill, but i heard he was REALLY 
interested, but they said no to having Haley Joel Osment as Harry, so he was 
reluctant, and then he was GOING to, and then whoever was directing A.I. 
died and he got offered that, so he dropped PS/SS offers like a hot 
potatoe!!

Stephanie
<cough cough, "the good, the bad, the malfoy", cough cough>

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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 00:21:15 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:21:15 -0000
Subject: Music composers & directors
In-Reply-To: <002d01c0a73e$c47e5b00$6a14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <986j9r+6m7g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13822

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> I think it was Spielberg, if I am not mistaken. He claimed to have 
been busy
> with another film.
> 

I thought I read somewhere that he wanted Haley Joel Osment for Harry 
and wouldn't direct otherwise.  Sounds like we came out ahead on both 
points.  I have nothing against HJO, never having seen him in 
anything, but I'm thrilled about DR from the little I've seen of him. 
 And you don't want to get me started on the topic of Spielberg; how 
many shots of people gazing openmouthed at things can you take?  I got 
sick of it way back at Close Encounters...all in all, Spielberg is one 
of those very frustrating artists to me, someone whose talent is great 
but who puts it in the service of a shallow vision (no, I'm not 
including Schindler, which I haven't seen).  Unlike JKR!

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
Snape made them all nervous, breathing down
their necks while they tried to remember 
how to make a Forgetfulness potion.
             -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------




From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 00:32:36 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:32:36 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Directing HP
Message-ID: <db.1133e657.27d82d25@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13823

In a message dated Wed, 7 Mar 2001  7:21:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Stephanie Malfoy" <StephanieMalfoy at hotmail.com> writes:

<<Ahem, heaven forbid i take onto the rumor mill, but i heard he was REALLY 
interested, but they said no to having Haley Joel Osment as Harry, so he was 
reluctant, and then he was GOING to, and then whoever was directing A.I. 
died and he got offered that, so he dropped PS/SS offers like a hot 
potatoe!!>>

Not all rumors you hear are true. Some are deliberately planted:)

Yes, Spielberg dropped Harry Potter for A.I.

HJO was never considered for the role of Harry.


~Hedwig~



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 00:39:18 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:39:18 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Responses to Firoza (and Cassie) on R/H and Such...
In-Reply-To: <9869q1+fk0t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <986kbm+9jpl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13824

Zipping up the wetsuit again...

Hi, Firoza!  Ebony here.  I've seen your posts over at the 
SugarQuill.  <vbg>  I may be a devoted H/H shipper, but you won't 
find one who loves the Weasley family more than I do.  I'd love to 
see more of your posts over here at HP4GU.

Let's sit and chat for a while... which do you prefer, tea, coffee, 
or hot chocolate?

Firoza wrote:
> Well I seem to have opened up a hornet's nest here :-) But not to 
> worry, I will respond and THEN go back to delurking :-)

Lurking, you mean?  <vbg>  Really, my shipmates are reasonable, fun 
people... just like many of my R/H friends.  No nasty insect stings 
intended, I'm sure.

Before I begin, let me issue a blanket disclaimer--I'm too tired for 
subtlety right now. My sixth graders and I had a Harry Potter-themed 
pizza party this afternoon as their House Cup Competition prize.  
While fun, it wore me out.  We played a lot of games, and talked a 
lot about the books... more to come later.  :) 

Cassie wrote:
"So it's all right if you R/H ers interpret the subtext to conclude 
that Hermione likes Ron, but not okay if we interpret the subtext to 
conclude that she likes Harry? Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF; 
Hermione's are not. Her words and actions can be interpreted in 
various ways. This, IMHO, is part of what literary analysis is about."

Firoza wrote in response:
"Perhaps I missed something? If Ron's feelings are quite clear in 
GoF, how is that 'subtext'? So how can R/H-er's and myself included 
have interpreted the subtext to conlude that Ron likes Hermione and 
Hermione likes Ron if 'Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF'? I 
believe that you misunderstood me :-) What I was saying is that IMO 
there is more evidence for a 'subtext' meaning between Ron and 
Hermione than there is for H/H, since I see the R/H interactions in 
GoF as subtle and implied, NOT 'clear' just as H/H fans see a subtext 
meaning."

Subtext... uh, something I can sink my teeth into.  I live on Subtext 
Island--grad school is corrupting me to the point where I can't read 
a novel without trying to get into the author's head, analyzing the 
historical and cultural context, and examining the intersecting 
traditions/genres/philosophies within which the author is writing.  :-
)

I've talked to a lot of people in online fandom, of all ages and ship 
preferences, including no-shippers.  The trend that I've personally  
noticed is that R/H fans mention GoF to support their position.  
Which makes sense--after not reading books 1-3 for a couple of months 
and going into GoF cold on July 8, I saw the R/H position as well.  

The only way I can explain why I'm H/H (and I'm asked all the time) 
is to use the entire canon we have thus far, and read it as a 
singular narrative.

GoF is not a standalone book.  It's the fourth part in a seventh 
volume series.  It can't be read most effectively in isolation any 
more than Wilder's "Farmer Boy" or Tolkien's "The Return of the King" 
can.  Serial novels of this nature are actually one continuous 
narrative in multiple parts.

The most intriguing thing in any potential romance subplot is this:  
JKR has held back from spelling out Hermione's feelings.  I've read 
*a lot* of serial fiction in which an author follows a remarkable 
character and their friends from youth to maturity... and I've rarely 
seen so much smoke and mirrors when it came to developing 
attractions.  

It would have been infinitely easy for Jo Rowling to indicate 
Hermione's feelings clearly, if they were indeed for Ron.  After all, 
there isn't much room for a fully developed, tangential romantic plot 
in her storyline... any pairings would have to tie directly into one 
of several non-romantic storylines.  

If Ron likes Hermione, and vice versa, and this is what our beloved 
author intended for her series, GoF would have been a good place to 
show both characters making tentative steps towards one another... 
nothing ambiguous.  If romance was not going to play a major role in 
the main storylines of the later books (as some of my no-ship buddies 
posit), or if Jo Rowling had a consistent R/H-during-canon pairing in 
mind... GoF would have read quite differently.

I believe that Rowling is "cloaking" Hermione's feelings for a 
reason.  If I'm correct, it wouldn't be the first time in which 
Hermione was hiding something that was integral to the main plot.  
Remember the Time-Turner?

If I could ask JKR one question before the fifth installment comes 
out next year, I'd ask her this:  "Are you a fan of Louisa May 
Alcott?"  Her answer would tell me a lot.

All writer know that plot=conflict.  If plot=the obvious or 
plot=peace, "we could have all stayed at home".  The best writers 
raises the stakes whenever they can, add dramatic tension here and 
there, are masters of subtlety and misdirection, and leave their 
readers hanging from scene to sequel.

Yet writers also have to deliver on the promises that they make.  If 
JKR is throwing up smoke and mirrors around potential R/H, and it's 
really all "much ado about nothing--Hermione really likes Ron", 
there's a contingent of close readers who will always remain 
unconvinced about that aspect of her story.  To set the table for 
your invited dinner guests and then not serve a well-anticipated meal 
is considered Very Bad Manners... and the analogy to fiction writing 
is obvious.

Cassie wrote:
"Well, just now I went through the archives and gave up after 
finding  more than forty posts on exactly this topic. I am very 
unclear how you managed to miss them, as there have been several 
after Christmas.  Perhaps you might want to email Penny off-list as 
she may have collected the message numbers for the relationships FAQ."

Check message #7708 (I think), Firoza--my classic "Freudian/Lacanian 
Support for H/H" may be the wildest subtext interp ever posted here 
at HP4GU.  Again, if you want to talk subtext, pick on me--most of 
the popular threads that are obvious I don't even think about 
debating.  Wand Order and Number of Students, IMO, are clear from 
surface-level text.

I'm looking forward to that relationships FAQ as well.  

Firoza wrote:
"I am sorry if my perusal of the message boards (which BTW I did read 
especially the ones before Christmas ;-) and my grasp of what they 
contain is not up to par, but my original post was made taking into 
account what points were made, or at least MY take on them. There are 
> many of them and some are not as clear as others, so I apologize if 
I picked up on the wrong points. Thank you for clarifying that FITD 
has nothing to do with 'subtext'."

FITD is based on text (I've found support for various parts of the 
theory in every book), subtext, and surveys of children and teens 
which are admittedly not scientific.  

I'm not sure who first coined the name for that theory or defined its 
terms (my gut says it's all Penny's fault, but I have this sneaking 
suspicion that I'm not innocent either).  But the first I ever heard 
of it was on July 11 last year... and I thought my students were 
crazy at the time.  

So FITD actually sprang from the minds of kids, Athena-like, who 
didn't have the benefit of fandom or fanfic... only the books and 
their own life experiences.  

It's as valid a hypothesis as any.   :)

Firoza wrote:
"What I was trying to say was that if FITD means that Hermione likes 
Harry, then for H/H to happen Harry will eventually have to like 
Hermione, right?"

In a world where terrible spells like the Imperius Curse exist?  
No.  :)  (I'm kidding, everyone.  Really.)

The thing that most intrigues me at this point is how the friendship 
amongst the Trio will be developed in future books.  An H/G friend 
(waves at Jim) and I have discussed this at length... and I've 
mentioned some of our conclusions on list before.  Though we 
sometimes differ as far as what trees are there, both of us see the 
same forest.

Firoza wrote:
"That was my POINT. If 'the subtext indicates that Hermione likes 
Harry, meaning that we are interpreting this from her actions as the 
text never comes out with the sentence HERMIONE LIKES HARRY', it can 
be argued in the same way that HERMIONE LIKES RON since the text  
never comes out with the sentence Hermione likes Ron ;-) All I was 
saying was that R/H fans see Hermione liking Ron and Ron liking 
Hermione, therefore WE do not see a subtext for Hermione liking 
Harry  :-)"

Actually, the text never states RON LIKES HERMIONE, either.  ;-) 

Subtext contains an underlying meaning or message.  Surface text are 
questions that can be answered using the author's own 
words.  :::restrains herself from subjecting the list to her lesson 
on QARs and waves at the teachers on list:::

Cassie wrote:
"Subtext is in part the intepretation put on ACTIONS in the text; the 
clause that Hermione has never done this before modifies/describes 
the action, but is not itself the action. The kiss 
is the action and is open to subtextual interpretations..."

Amen, Cass.  Couldn't have said it better myself.

This is why I am bewildered when people take it personally when I 
debate ship positions that counter my own.  For me, it's not personal-
-it's just who I am. 

Cassie again:
"And if this isn't a subtextual interpretation of the kiss, I don't 
know what is. So Hermione having kissed Harry proves she doesn't like 
him, because if she did like him, she'd be far too paralyzed with 
fear to even go near him? Instead, she would probably just have 
fainted at his feet. Or perhaps she would have glared at him, since 
her repeated glaring at Ron seems to be interpreted as a sign of deep 
affection by R/Hers."

OMG!  I haven't laughed so hard while reading a post in AGES!   You 
see, Cassie's expressing the confusion of every H/Her I've ever 
spoken to.  I know I think the *same thing* whenever the ship debate 
rolls around.  I identify strongly with Hermione, I put myself in her 
shoes... and the "I glare at him because I like him" argument is 
unconvincing to me.  The first thing I think to myself is, "well, 
Hermione glares at Draco as well, doesn't she?  So following your 
rhetoric, this means that she likes Ron, and Draco, and everyone 
who "gets under her skin"."  

On the other hand, who else has Hermione shown clear evidence of 
being somewhat attracted to in canon?  She *was* attracted to 
Lockheart (twelve year old girl's crush on a teacher--even Ron admits 
to it)--how did she react while she was around him?  She may not have 
been swept off her feet by Krum, but she liked him enough to go to 
the Yule Ball with him--did she glare at him all the time, too?  Or 
initially?

Cassie wrote:
"No. I don't agree at all. I'm sorry about that. First off, I'm 
rather shocked that so much weight is being put on something JKR said 
in chat. As has been stated here before, chat is not canon. <snip> 
Books are living things in the process of writing; they change and 
grow, and my 
personal opinion is that she gives such evasive answers partly 
because she has not yet made up her mind and doesn't want to get 
boxed into a corner.  <snip some more good stuff> As far as I'm 
concerned, if I were an author, I might easily have said that there 
was something between Ron and Hermione even if all I meant was that 
Ron likes Hermione and Hermione had feelings of 
affection/guilt/confusion in return."

Not to mention the fact that JKR is notoriously evasive in interviews 
and in chats.  :)

I'll challenge anyone to do the following:  go to our site's 
archives, and the UHPFC message board archives *pre-GoF*.  It is 
obvious that JKR has said a lot of things in interviews and chats 
about GoF that did not exactly pan out the way her fans interpreted 
them in advance.

Also, as Cassie alludes to, writers are tricky people by nature.  
We're storytellers, yarn-spinners, and dream sellers.  As the old 
argument against fiction writing goes, "we tell lies for a living."  

Again, JKR's being evasive for a reason.  What she says in chat is 
not canon... it's planon.  :::winks at Neil for the coined word:::

Firoza wrote:
"Since you do not consider what JKR says in a chat as 'canon', that 
is fine, but my post was meant to just 'clarify' MY stance on why I 
believe JKR is headed towards R/H. I would never dream of claiming 
to 'clarify' something for JKR either, so again (surprise, surprise) 
you have misundertood me :-) As for defining 'between', that was once 
again to clarify MY interpretation of that statement. Sorry, if I 
ruffled and feathers, but as I stressed in my original post, my 
comments were meant in to be taken light-heartedly and NOT in hopes 
 of converting die-hard H/H shippers ;-)"

Of course not... H/H is the Ship that Proselytizes, remember?  
Converting all dreamers to our version of this fairy tale.  Search 
the archives if you don't believe we've been accused of this.  Me?  
Guilty as charged.  <vbg>

What looks like ruffling of feathers is actually quite the opposite.  
Intelligent ship debates get me all fired up.  I love a good debate, 
and I love a worthy opponent even more.  So do many of my shipmates.  
This is why we don't cluster and only talk to one another all the 
time in places where disparate PoVs are not encouraged.  It gets 
boring talking about how right we are and how much Harry and Hermione 
are meant to be with other like-minded souls.  Not to mention "time 
consuming."  

But to each his own.

Please tell all my friends over at the SugarQuill that the H/H 
Special Agent bids them a fond hello, Firoza--I'll drop by one day 
soon to inquire about W.A.I.L.  :-)

And to the rest of you, thanks for hearing me out.

All the best,

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From linman6868 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 00:50:15 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:50:15 -0000
Subject: Harry's curiosity/ambiguity
In-Reply-To: <982vqp+oqma@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <986l07+o75v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13825

::delurking nervously for the first time::

Going to retrace my steps to a thread that piqued me before the 
shipper deluge...  :)

Harry's curiosity seems to be most eager when he comes into contact 
with people who knew what his parents were like as people.  By 
talking to them, Harry can glean a little knowledge-by-acquaintance 
of them.

Harry's attitude toward his parents' death-story, OTOH, seems to 
consist mainly of overwhelmed feelings at first.  When his curiosity 
about the story begins to kick in by the end of SS/PS, his attitude 
becomes the same as that which Dumbledore asks him to adopt toward 
the Mirror of Erised:  don't go looking for it, but be ready for it 
when you meet it.  

This attitude, though not his trust in Dumbledore, is put to a severe 
test in PoA when he discovers that several people whom he sees every 
day know a great many more details about his parents' death than he 
does, and have never volunteered any of it to him.  His resulting 
frustration and anger are temporarily relieved in the encounter with 
Sirius, but I suspect that if he hadn't been subsequently distracted 
by scar pains and worry about Sirius and the Triwizard Tournament, 
that frustration would have resurfaced.

I'm continually impressed with JKR's ability to draw a fine thread of 
tension like this over four books--it took Harry till PoA to have a 
real outburst of anger, and as yet there's been no real opportunity 
for him to really weep; the emotional power of such scenes hasn't 
been wasted early in the series, and it reinforces our interest in 
the story.

I'm so happy to have discovered a great place to lurk in on awesome 
discussions of HP; none of my friends have read the books yet and 
I've been dying.

Lisa, scuttling like a spider back into lurkdom





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 01:00:09 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 01:00:09 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Defining R/Hdom etc. - A Plea
Message-ID: <986lip+u07d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13826

Bouncer (or is it Spokesperson?) Firoza wrote:

>R/H fans see R/H because they see a MUTUAL 
>attraction between Ron and Hermione, not just Hermione liking Ron or 
>vice versa.

Not this R/Her.  I *can* see subtext supporting Hermione-likes-Ron, 
but it's faint, and IMO, those signs are only slightly more clear than 
those pointing to Hermione-likes-Harry.  The jury is still out in my 
personal court of opinion re: Hermione's heart.  My R/Hdom is almost 
entirely based on Ron's feelings and my *guess* as to where they will 
lead.

>I and my fellow shipmates see R/H in the canon 
>staying together as MORE plausible than their breaking up due to any 
>of the various, different scenarios we fans may come up with, that's 
>all. 

Once again, this is not my view.

>My fellow R/H-er's and I do not see Harry's interest in Hermione 
>changing in the future, so Harry does not like her romantically now, 
>nor will he in the future <vbg>. 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record . . . I disagree.  I 
don't think Harry is interested in Hermione now, but I could easily 
see his feelings changing.

>All I was 
>saying was that R/H fans see Hermione liking Ron and Ron liking 
>Hermione, therefore WE do not see a subtext for Hermione liking 
>Harry

"Sorry, squire, I scratched the record" (Python reference, sorry to 
the non-MP fans).  You already know I disagree with the first part; I 
also disagree with the logic.  The "therefore" doesn't follow; 
Hermione can like both of them.  Haven't you ever been in love with 
two people at once?  Not that I think Hermione is in love with even 
one, but just that it is distinctly possible.

Do I get bounced off the ship?  I hope there is room for diverse 
opinions within R/Hdom.

Paula2 wrote:

>Paula2, who has just written a whole page to say she doesn't know 
>anything

Didn't someone say that that's the beginning of wisdom?  I hope all 
your nothings will be so interesting--I thought it was a great post.

A plea to shippers:  can we be kinder to each other?  Things are 
getting unpleasantly snippy; is it that time of the month?  Ah, yes, a 
look out my window confirms that the moon's only a couple days from 
the full.  Fortunately, I have some monkshood, also known as 
wolfsbane, in my garden (I really do), and will be happy to pass 
around the potion.  I have really appreciated the measured tones of 
this list and hope we can keep them so.  

Aooooooooooooo!
Amy Z, aka lupinesque

-------------------------------------------------------
"And now, before we go to bed, let us sing the school 
song!" cried Dumbledore.  Harry noticed that the other 
teachers' smiles had become rather fixed.
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
-------------------------------------------------------




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  8 00:57:29 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:57:29 -0600
Subject: SHIP: RE: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
References: <984h8q+dsf4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6D8F8.CF8B397A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13827

Hi --

firoza10 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Ron's remarks were not personal but Hermione was aware that the
> sentiments behind the words were.

I take it your implication is that this means that Hermione must return
his feelings or she'd never have said what she said to him.  Sorry but I
disagree for the reasons I've stated previously.  I think she was in the
midst of a fight & giving him hell for blaming her for the fact that
she'd gone with someone else.

> What we R/H fans say is that what we interpret has been bourne out by
> JKR herself <vbg>.

Hmmmm .... an awfully confident pronouncement.

> I believe it was Penny that mentioned that the 'there's something
> going on between Ron and Hermione' comment of JKR's can be
> interpreted as Ron liking Hermione, but Hermione not returning the
> feelings. Moey pointed that the only thing one can interpret
> differently in this statement is the 'something', but the 'between'
> most definitely means: <snip>
>
> Now as an expert in subtext, I am sure that Penny agrees that
> the subtext of 'something going on' is the implication that Hermione
> and Ron have romantic feelings.

Morsus Crustum (and all her alias identities) wrote:

> An issue between them could most definitly be unrequited love. Is that so far
> fetched? It certianly makes there be "something between them". Even more so
> when you look at the fact that Hermione has to be blind to not pick up on
> it. Ron will probably make some move in the next book, and Hermione will or
> will not respond, either way it will cause something to happen. And just
> because something is going one way, it doesn't mean it's going the other.
>
I absolutely couldn't agree more with MC on this one.  That's exactly
what I think is *one* possible interpretation of her offhand comment in
chat.  It may not be the right one, but it *is* possible.  I think
Hermione does know how Ron feels.  But, how does she feel back?  That's
open to alot of debate obviously.  Like MC said, she either will or will
not respond to Ron the way he would like, and either way she goes,
there's "something going on between them."

> Please do not launch forth an all out attack on me for clarifying
> JKR's statement H/H fans,

You later wrote: "my post was meant to just 'clarify' MY stance on why I
believe JKR is headed towards R/H. I would never dream of claiming to
'clarify' something for JKR either, so again (surprise, surprise) you
have misundertood me :-)."

I think if you read the quoted portion, you'll understand why we all
interpreted what you said as "clarifying" JKR for us all.

> because all I am pointing out is that there really is no other way to
> interpret 'between' if the 'between' being referred to is the one in
> the English language <g>! So if H/H fans can follow the logic of my
> ramble so far, they will have to agree that JKR is saying that
> Hermione DOES have romantic feelings (if we agree that
> the 'something' being referred to here is 'romantic feelings' <g>)
> for Ron, but Ron, typical boy, is clueless.

Just because I can follow your argument does not mean that I *must*
agree with your conclusions.  In any case, as I noted above, I think
you're putting a strict interpretation on the word "between" and
ignoring the forest for the trees so to speak.

> Penny wrote:
> Well, she made alot of pre-GoF statements that had everyone utterly &
> completely convinced that Harry & Cho would date each other in GoF.
> She's quite good IMO at making public statements that appear to be
> clear but are, in reality, rather ambiguous.  I interpret what she
> said as being clear only that Ron doesn't know what's going on yet.
> There's
> more than one spin to be put on virtually everything JKR says --
> that's all I'm saying.  :--)
>
> Well if the pre-GoF statements that Penny is referring to are the
> ones were JKR stated that the Trio would 'fall in love with the wrong
> people' or that they 'would date the wrong person' then that has been
> bourne out in GoF since none of us seriously believe that Hermione is
> going to actually fall in love with Krum, Ron with Padma/Fleur or
> Harry with Parvati/Cho, the obvious 'wrong people' in GoF. I don't
> remember any chat/interview, other than the one mentioned above,
> where JKR stated or implied that Harry would date Cho, so if you have
> a link or the name of this article where this was said, I would
> really love to read it please ;-)

Well, one might start with the book jacket to GoF.  "He wants to dream
about Cho Chang, his crush (and maybe do more than dream)."  I remember
reading that in line at the bookstore and thinking, "Ugh.  Well, at
least she'll be his "Ms. Wrong" presumably."

September 1999 B&N Chat: "I'm having so much fun writing Book 4 because
for the first time Harry, Ron and Hermione are starting to recognize
boys and girls as boys and girls.  Everyone is in love with the wrong
people.  Let no one say my books lack realism."  [If Ron's in love with
Hermione, is she the "wrong" person?  That's one spin to put on that
remark.]

There's an interview that I cannot find in my print-outs.  It's the one
where she says something about clever readers (or careful readers) of
Book 3 could figure who Harry's first love interest in Book 4 is.  So,
of course, all of us adults deduced it would be Cho because she made his
tummy flutter.  We then took all further hints about the kids "falling
in love" with the wrong people & having their hormones kick in to mean
that they would all *date* the wrong people.  Harry really doesn't do
much more than have the occasional image of Cho's smiling face in front
of him; his fantasies about her don't extend all that far.  He really
doesn't interact with her much; he doesn't even know if he'd like her
much if he actually spent time with her.

BTW, the reference to Book 4 not being the longest book is in the
Newsweek interview with JKR (10 July 2000 issue).

> JKR may be 'ambiguous' about things such as whether any of the Trio
> will die or who will actually die, but most everything else that I
> remember she has said in the chats and interviews I have read has
> been bourne out in the books so far.

In that same February chat that you quote below, she's asked how old
Dumbledore is (a specific question), and she answered then with "Wizards
have a longer life expectancy than Muggles!"  She answered the question
finally in an October chat but .... point is, she's not totally serious
about every chat response she gives out (and/or she can be ambiguous
when it suits her).

> That is unless anyone thinks that Hermione can be in love
> with TWO people at the same time

One of your shipmates asserted that this is possible I believe, and
actually, I agree with her.  Hermione could very well be confused.
She's *14* -- of course, she could be confused & have romantic feelings
for more than one person.

> Some words such as 'between' and 'platonic'really have only one
> meaning <vbg>.

Sometimes you have to look at context though, as Cassie pointed out.

> Teenagers in real life may not form attachments as
> teenagers that last into adulthood, but HP is NOT the real world, so
> R/H lasting into adulthood is a real possibility <g>.

Well, there's the chat quote from Sept 1999 that I quoted above though
where JKR says "Let it not be said that my books lack realism."  So ...
uh .... do you interpret that to mean that she wants the romantic
relationships depicted therein to be realistic and multi-faceted (and
full of the conflicts & mysteries & problems that accompany romantic
entanglements in real life) or do you think she'll just go for the OBHWF
theory?  It could be dangerous to rely fully on chat statements .... it
might trap you into a position that's counter to what you want to
believe also.

> Nor do we think that R/H or H/G when they eventually
> DO get together will break up and not last. That is not in keeping
> with the tone of the HP books, however 'unrealistic' that may be and
> despite all the fanfics out there <vbg>.

Still don't understand why this would "not be in keeping with the tone
of the HP books."  Color me puzzled on that one.

> My statements are NOT meant to be taken issue of, they are
> as I have stressed my opinions only :-)
>
Well .... if you state an opinion on an internet *discussion* list,
you're opening yourself up to having that opinion be subjected to
questioning.  That's the point.  It's a discussion group so that there
can be back & forth debate.  You don't just express opinions & then say,
"But, I don't want to hear any arguments, and I don't want to have to
defend my views."  If that's your hope, then you're better off being
silent on a discussion group, because the whole point is to engage in a
conversation with one another.

> As for Ron getting killed in saving Harry, that is
> very possible (but heartbreaking scenario), but I still don't see
> Hermione turning to Harry for comfort, since I don't see any H/H
> subtext ;-) That too me would be like Harry playing second-fiddle to
> Ron
>
My envisioned scenario has Ron getting killed in a betrayal of Harry
*because* Hermione rejected him (Ron) in favor of Harry.  My scenario
does not involve Hermione turning to Harry as a second choice.

> So just to clarify, I think what Penny is saying, regarding FITD is:
>
> FITD detracts from R/H because Ron likes Hermione, but Hermione does
> not like Ron, and we all agree that you need 2 people in a
> relationship.
>
> FITD does not support H/H as TEENS, but it does support a *future*
> H/H pairing, since Harry does not like Hermione *as yet* but will
> return her feelings ENENTUALLY.
>
No on this last bit.  FITD does not currently support H/H, but it
*COULD* support H/H in the future at some point, since Harry *COULD*
return her feelings at some point.  [In other words, replace "does" with
"could" and replace "will" with "could"]

> Cassandra wrote:
> So it's all right if you R/H ers interpret the subtext to conclude
> that Hermione likes Ron, but not okay if we interpret the subtext to
> conclude that she likes Harry? Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF;
> Hermione's are not. Her words and actions can be interpreted in
> various ways. This, IMHO, is part of what literary analysis is about.
>
> Firoza: Perhaps I missed something? If Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF,
> how is that 'subtext'? So how can R/H-er's and myself included have
> interpreted the subtext to conlude that Ron likes Hermione and
> Hermione likes Ron if 'Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF'? I
> believe that you misunderstood me :-)
>
I think you misunderstood Cassie.  Subtext has to do with *Hermione* --
not Ron.  JKR has all but beat us over the head with the fact that Ron
likes Hermione.  There is no need to look for subtext going that
direction.  Where you have to look at the subtext is with Hermione's
interactions with each of Ron and Harry.  As I said, both sides are
looking at Hermione's statements, actions & the subtext of her
interactions with her friends to reach conclusions about her feelings.

> If Ron's feelings were as clear as you claim, then there really wouldn't be the 'Yule Ball' debate of late .
>
The Yule Ball debate does not have anything to do with Ron's feelings.
We're all agreed on that score.  The Yule Ball debate has to do with
what Hermione meant by her last remark to Ron before she headed upstairs
after the Yule Ball (and with what might or might not have been said by
both characters before Harry steps into the Common Room).

> Thank you for clarifying that FITD has nothing to do with 'subtext'.
>
That's not correct either.  What Cassie was saying is that there is no
subtext supporting the notion that Harry likes Hermione.  FITD does in
fact require some read of subtext -- unless you can find enough support
in overt surface-level interactions between Harry and Hermione to
support the 2nd prong: Hermione likes Harry.  IMO, to support that part
of FITD, one must look at the subtext.

> What I was trying to say was that if FITD means that Hermione likes
> Harry, then for H/H to happen Harry will eventually have to like
> Hermione, right? Since I don't think Harry will like Hermione back,
> FITD makes no sense to me, that's all, even if it makes sense to H/H
> fans :-)
>
<clears throat and takes a deep breath>.  Okay guys: FITD does *not*
mean H/H is an eventuality.  FITD has to do with the here & now.  FITD
posits that Hermione does not return Ron's romantic interest.
Accordingly, under FITD, there can be no R/H at the current time.  It
also posits that Harry does not like Hermione.  Accordingly, under FITD,
there can be no H/H at the current time.  Under FITD, it is possible
that (a) no combination of these 3 characters will *ever* end up as a
couple, and (b) any possible combination of the 3 characters *could* end
up as a couple in the future.  The "future" could be within the confines
of Book 5 or it could be post-Hogwarts.

H/H types tend to support FITD because (a) it looks like that is where
the canon is headed (our interpretation of all available evidence is
that Hermione likes Harry rather than Ron), and (b) if there is FITD,
there is no R/H and it leaves the possibility of H/H open & on the
table.

Penny
(who will make some effort to see that the Romance Pairings FAQ is one
of the first ones uploaded since there is a general call for
clarification of issues & arguments expounded in the past)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 01:07:02 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:07:02 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Responses to Firoza (and Cassie) on R/H and Such...
Message-ID: <F137NVU5S1aTeeCXjiG00002359@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13828


I want to make a comment. I have been looking closer at the people who ship, 
and I think that I have a pretty accurate theory about them. H/H shippers 
are (usually; by no means are all) older fans of the HP books. As in, 
they've been around for the long haul, ever since the beginning. They have 
had time to analyze and over-analyze the other books vivaciously. Subtext? 
They've been there, done that, bought the tee-shirt. These people have 
pretty much raked through the first three books tirelessly and plucked out 
all of the H/H preludes to assure themselves that Is The Way It Is. (That 
wasn't a diss. Read on.)
R/Hr shippers tend to be newer fans of the books. They went from one book to 
the next, and so on, not re-reading a million times * before * moving on. 
They make their opinions, then go back and re-read the books, pulling out 
what supports R/Hr, and convince themselves that Is The Way It Is.
The idea is - there has been subtle H/H overtures for a long time. But you 
only catch them when you *really* look. Now, obviously, there will be a 
bunch of people yelling "no, no, I have thought it was R/Hr and I was 
reading HP before it was cool!" or "I am a H/H shipper, and I just started 
reading them." I know. It's just a theory. I'm certain there is an exception 
to that rule.

Flame away.

MC


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  8 01:09:42 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:09:42 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:ship:  JK  chat, R/H vs. H/H
References: <ad.7daa5fa.27d7f3f2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6DBD5.AC3528C1@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13829

mlleelizabeth at aol.com wrote:

> I've feeling a teeny bit claustrophobic here in the U-boat No Ship, so
> I've built the SKHIFF* Defiance.

No, no, there's lots of us here. But by definition, we're not in a ship
at all; we're bobbing around in inner tubes, drinking beer and watching
the fireworks shows from the big ships (a la tubing down the Guadalupe,
for you Texans). Just paddle over. Want a nacho?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 01:22:51 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 01:22:51 -0000
Subject: SHIP: RE:  Defining R/Hdom etc. - A  Plea
Message-ID: <986mtb+npa6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13830

Just to clarify, Amy Z's post, I shall say then that THIS particular 
R/H fan and any other like-minded R/H fans, see things the way I have 
posted them, and no not necessarily ALL R/H fans :-) 

Yes there is always room on the Good Ship R/H for differing R/H 
opinions, a read through the Veritaserum board on Sugar Quill Island 
will verify that :-)

Bouncer Firoza :-)




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  8 01:24:25 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:24:25 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Raven vs. Eagle
References: <986hg3+1phf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6DF49.14612B63@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13831

Kelley wrote:

> Did we ever learn why Ravenclaw's mascot is an eagle rather than a
> raven?

Easiest answer--because it is. Same reason Gryffindor's is a golden lion
and not a golden griffin (gryffin of gold = gryffin d'or).

>  I  thought this was a bit strange, and would assume this was
> deliberately changed for the movie ("why not have a raven as the
> mascot for Ravenclaw?").

Yeah, when things in a coat of arms have the same sound as the name of
the bearer, it's called a "cant" (like my name in my medieval society is
Oliphant, and I have an elephant on my arms). Cants are fun and
instinctive, and I figured they changed it for that, and because it
seemed to make more sense.

<lecture mode/ON> Medievally, though, which is technically when the
symbols of the houses would have solidified into tradition, the eagle
was the lord of the birds, as the lion was the lord of beasts. They had
some tremendously heavy positive symbolism about power and virture and
stuff like that, hence their frequent use in actual heraldry. <lecture
mode/OFF>

By the way, I haven't had time to look into it, but the badger's a
pretty respected creature of the earth. I haven't had time to research
the badger's and snake's heraldic histories, but it'd be fun if I could
tie them to the four elements, eh?.

ANYway, it's also been postulated (by others) that an eagle was Rowena's
animagus form, and postulated (by me) that said eagle had black claws
(most of them do), hence Raven-claw for her name. But this is way too
complicated for a movie audience, so they made it a raven. Because it
seemed logical. I bet.

>  Has JKR ever commented on this?

Dunno, but she must have okayed it, because there it is, and if it were
vital to the plot that Ravenclaw bear an eagle, she'd have fussed about
it.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  8 01:26:59 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:26:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House-badges/devices
References: <986itm+fh2a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6DFE2.DD5B7BA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13832

Amy Z wrote:

> pengolodh_sc at y... wrote:
>
> > Still, I think they would have made happier choices by simply
> > duplicating what has been displayed at least in th UK-editions for
> > the house-arms.
>
> Does anyone know who drew this?  I really like it, and the artist
> isn't credited.  We don't have them in the US editions, sadly.

No, but I've been toying with the idea of drawing up a full achievement
for Hogwarts, complete with supporters and stuff, just for fun. I'd
probably use winged boars, since those top the pillars at the main gate,
and a demi-boar or a sleeping dragon for the crest. Other thoughts?

--Amanda, onetime herald's painter


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar  8 01:39:59 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 01:39:59 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
In-Reply-To: <9869q1+fk0t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <986ntf+qp94@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13833

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., firoza10 at y... wrote:
>
F: Perhaps I missed something? If Ron's feelings are quite clear in 
GoF,  how is that 'subtext'?

It's not. I think you did miss something, or simply misunderstood
me. The subtext arguments have nothing to do with Ron's feelings,
they have to do with Hermione's.  


F: So how can R/H-er's and myself included have
> interpreted the subtext to conlude that Ron likes Hermione and
> Hermione likes Ron if 'Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF'? I
> believe that you misunderstood me :-) What I was saying is that IMO
> there is more evidence for a 'subtext' meaning between Ron and
> Hermione than there is for H/H, since I see the R/H interactions in
> GoF as subtle and implied, NOT 'clear' just as H/H fans see a 
subtext meaning. If Ron's feelings were as clear as you claim, then 
there really wouldn't be the 'Yule Ball' debate of late <g>.

Everything is open to debate here, that's the point of the message 
board. And the Yule Ball debate has to do with Hermione's
feelings, not Ron's. 
I'd say the majority of people would say that Ron's feelings for 
Hermione are clear in GoF; even the most die-hard H/H of us (*winks 
at Sue, Penny, Ebony, Carole, Heidi, Lori, etc.*) agree that Ron's 
actions in GoF suggest that he likes Hermione. Possibly not everyone 
agrees with this: there are the people who suggest that Harry
and Ron like each other due to the infamous "ankles scene" in GoF. 
You are never going to get unanimity on any point on a message board 
like this one; I was referencing the observation of the wide 
majority, which is that Ron Likes Hermione.


F: "Thank you for clarifying that FITD has
> nothing to do with 'subtext'."

*looks puzzled* I never mentioned the FITD theory in my post. And I 
never said it has nothing to do with subtext. The Ron segment of it 
has nothing to do with subtext; the Hermione segment has everything 
to do with subtext.

>
F: What I was trying to say was that if FITD means that Hermione 
likes  Harry, then for H/H to happen Harry will eventually have to 
like Hermione, right? Since I don't think Harry will like Hermione 
back, FITD makes no sense to me, that's all, even if it makes sense 
to H/H fans :-)

So it's just a sort of subjective feeling that Harry will never like
Hermione, then? Ah. I thought it had some basis in the text. <g> 


F: <vbg>? As for Hermione glaring at
> Ron being interpreted as a sign of deep affection by R/H ers, the
> ACTION of the glare can be intrepreted as indicating that Ron gets
> under Hermione's skin, so yes, in essence the 'glare' can be thought
> of a sign of deep affection <vbg>.

Okay. If that's your interpretation. She glares at Draco a lot, too. 
And smacks him. He obviously gets under her skin. *g* I like where 
THIS train of argument is going.


F:  Since you do not consider what JKR says in a chat as 'canon', 
that is  fine, but my post was meant to just 'clarify' MY stance on 
why I believe JKR is headed towards R/H."

You didn't say it was clarifying your stance. You said it was 
clarifying her statement.

F: I would never dream of claiming to 'clarify' something for JKR 
either.

*cough.* F: "Please do not launch forth an all out attack on me for 
clarifying JKR's statement." That's what you said.
 
>
F: She (JKR) said Harry and Hermione will not date in Book IV and by 
golly they didn't did they and yes, H/H and R/H have been platonic 
from Books 1-3. So, so far JKR has followed canon :-)

Um, yes she's followed canon. She wrote the canon. It's a bit of a 
tautology to say she's followed it. I am bewildered as to what this 
means.
>

"I was just following my 'faulty reasoning' :-) And, ummm, did you 
not just say that H/H fans interpret Hermione as having feelings for
 Harry, and does not 'having feelings' hopefully lead to love?

Hopefully according to whom? I don't hope that Harry's having 
feelings for Cho will lead to love; that Viktor's feelings for 
Hermione will lead to love. Having feelings and being in love are 
not, obviously, the same. Having feelings does not
always lead to love; otherwise there would be far fewer unhappy 
romances. Also, I think Hermione's too young for In Love.

F: "And I am not assuming 'that interpretatins put on what JKR said in
> chat are gospel truth'. What I AM saying is that what JKR has said 
in  chats is helpful IN MY OPINION, in helping ME interpret the HP 
books, that is all :-)

No, that's not what you said. Maybe it's what you meant, but these 
are two different things. 
You said: "Going back to the Feb. 3, 2000 chat, since it is apparent 
that there is 'something going on between' Ron AND Hermione as of 
Book IV, and
Harry and Hermione are very platonic as of Book IV, common sense
indicates that the only one left is Ginny (since Cedric's death rules
out Cho, and JKR has said that Ginny will play more of a role in Book
V <g>). That is unless anyone thinks that Hermione can be in love
with TWO people at the same time or that JKR, the creator of all
things HP who made these statements, is shall we say, less than
truthful <g>?"

It sounds like you are saying that JKR would not be truthful if Harry 
and Hermione or Draco and Hermione or Harry and Seamus got together 
because at one point she said that there 'was something going on 
between Ron and Hermione' and that Ginny would play a bigger role in 
Book 5. I simple didn't see how that would make her untruthful. I 
still don't.

Also, just because something is your opinion, does not mean we cannot 
or should not disagree with it. If you state your opinion, you should 
expect to have to defend that opinion. Especially on a message board 
like this one, where a wide variety of views are represented.

F: I am sorry if my post offends you <vbg> since you 'just can't read 
any further."

Your previous post didn't offend me, I simply ran out of time and 
energy. Around here we like a lively debate, and I speak for all
my H/H shipmates when I say that, I believe. As Ebony said "This
is 
why we don't cluster and only talk to one another all the time in 
places where disparate PoVs are not encouraged." <lol> Couldn't
agree 
more. Hugs to you, Eb.

Cassie





From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Mar  8 01:40:56 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 01:40:56 -0000
Subject: House-badges/devices
In-Reply-To: <3AA6DFE2.DD5B7BA@texas.net>
Message-ID: <986nv8+9jfp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13834

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Amy Z wrote:
> 
> > pengolodh_sc at y... wrote:
> >
> > > Still, I think they would have made happier choices by simply
> > > duplicating what has been displayed at least in th UK-editions 
for
> > > the house-arms.
> >
> > Does anyone know who drew this?  I really like it, and the artist
> > isn't credited.  We don't have them in the US editions, sadly.
> 
> No, but I've been toying with the idea of drawing up a full 
achievement
> for Hogwarts, complete with supporters and stuff, just for fun. I'd
> probably use winged boars, since those top the pillars at the main 
gate,
> and a demi-boar or a sleeping dragon for the crest. Other thoughts?
> 
> --Amanda, onetime herald's painter

Amanda--

No other ideas but I do like the winged boars and the sleeping 
dragon.  So glad to find someone else interested in heraldry (and a 
RenFairer to boot!).  The Hogwarts poster is pretty decent--it *does* 
show the eagle for Ravenclaw.  To answer part of an earlier post you 
made about badgers.  Yes, they are an earth creature (they den) and 
also mean little buggers when they're cornered (although not as mean 
as weasels or polecats).  

Peace & Plenty,

Parker
----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  8 01:38:43 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:38:43 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: couples 'lasting' in the HP world...
References: <9869vo+l1lq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008701c0a770$83c0cbc0$fe64d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13835


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com>



> Here's me:

> Actually, I can see JKR have some of the characters in relationships
> in books 5 and 6, and not necessarily keeping them together 'til the
> end of 7 and beyond.  Death would seem to be the most likely cause of
> a relationship ending, but yes, there are other ways this can happen,
> too.  What I would expect, however, is that -whomever- she puts
> together as a couple by the end of 7, will stay together.

Again I ask, why?  Because that's the way we want it?   Even if JKR ended it
H/H I wouldn't presume to *know* definitvely what happens post book #7.
There's just no way.

Divorce
> hasn't been introduced in the series yet, and the only abandonment
> we've seen is Vold's father and Hagrid's mother.  Since we haven't
> met her yet, who can say what she'll be like.  Other married couples
> seem to have been together for quite some time, with no impending
> signs of a breakup.

Yeah, but how many wizarding couple have we met for goodness sake?  Malfoys,
Weasleys, ummmmm....and how many are there in the wizarding world?  Come on
use your imagination.  Why wouldn't there be romantic break ups and
divorces?  Not everyone has the *inner eye* as Trelawney likes to say.

to quote JKR:  .  "Let no one say my books lack realism."

>So, to me, if JKR really doesn't want to return
> to HP, I would think that the couples, if any, at the end, will be
> intended to give us the impression that their relationships/marriages
> will be lasting.

Why limit her or the story like that?

> I'll also say that since GoF is the pivotal book in
> the series, and that so far she has been dealing with the romantic
> subplots very gradually, it doesn't look as though she's planning to
> do something different later on.  I know about JKR pulling the rug
> out and all that, but this usually seems to happen within the main
> storyline of a single book, e.g. the 'bad guy' isn't who we all
> expected it to be, etc.  It seems if JKR tries to do this with
> romantic couples, while that might be fun for her to write, it might
> seem too out-of-the-blue and unsatisfying to the story as a whole.
> IOW, if she's been leading us one way through half the series now,
> and maybe even more once we get 5, then to suddenly change the
> couples around might diminish the story's integrity.

And why would having matters of the heart complicate various plots about
good vs evil diminish the integrity of the story?  Has she done that yet?
Can't we trust her to surprise us?

>
> I've written enough for now, and if my thoughts are unclear, which
> would be likely, let me know.  I'll try again.

Maybe I'm just misinterpreting and I do not intend to sound at all snippy.
I'm just honestly curious.

carole





From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 01:48:28 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 01:48:28 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
In-Reply-To: <986haj+6r34@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <986odc+fqen@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13836

Cassandra -

Oops about the 30 year old thing (even though I am 30).  After reading 
50 posts at once, sometimes I confuse things.  So sorry!

--Jenny from Ravencla




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar  8 01:48:36 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:48:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
References: <986ntf+qp94@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6E4F3.D93194DB@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13837

cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:

> F: <vbg>? As for Hermione glaring at
> > Ron being interpreted as a sign of deep affection by R/H ers, the
> > ACTION of the glare can be intrepreted as indicating that Ron gets
> > under Hermione's skin, so yes, in essence the 'glare' can be thought
>
> > of a sign of deep affection <vbg>.
>
> Cass: Okay. If that's your interpretation. She glares at Draco a lot,
> too.
> And smacks him. He obviously gets under her skin. *g* I like where
> THIS train of argument is going.

Cassie set this up JUST so I could make my happy little D/H (no, not
that D?H, although I think there's subtext for that as well) argument
that Draco & Hermione really have potential.
We, the readers, have little to know idea of what Hermione or Draco do
when they're not hanging out with (for the former) or hanging out near
(for the latter) Harry.
For all we, the readers, know, they've had a regular study date in the
library twice a week for the last two books, or spent a morning together
in Hogsmeade during third year, when she wasn't speaking to Ron or
Harry, and perhaps he's the one who introduced her to Krum...
Maybe we'll find out in book 5...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 01:54:07 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 01:54:07 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Unpredictability - Heraldry
In-Reply-To: <986kbm+9jpl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <986onv+rm8i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13838

Ebony wrote:

>Yet writers also have to deliver on the promises that they make.  If 
>JKR is throwing up smoke and mirrors around potential R/H, and it's 
>really all "much ado about nothing--Hermione really likes Ron", 
>there's a contingent of close readers who will always remain 
>unconvinced about that aspect of her story.  To set the table for 
>your invited dinner guests and then not serve a well-anticipated meal 
>is considered Very Bad Manners... and the analogy to fiction writing 
>is obvious.

Very good point, as always, Ebony.  The line between dramatic 
tension/misdirection and failing to deliver on promises is a fine and 
wobbly one.  At this point I would not accuse JKR of failing to 
deliver on past hints if she revealed in book 5, chapter 1 that 
Hermione was wildly in love with Ron.  Nor would I do so if she 
revealed in book 5, chapter, let's say, 10, that Ron wasn't interested 
in Hermione (I *would* feel like she was breaking the rules if he lost 
interest in her *too* fast--unless we got an alternative explanation 
for his actions in GF; there are plausible explanations besides the 
obvious one).  She has left a lot of possibilities open with romance, 
as with everything else.

The catch about delivering the promised meal when it comes to 
characters is that characters change, and the best-developed ones have 
the most room to change without making us cry "foul play!"  People can 
be very unpredictable and still be in character.  Whether a writer 
who makes a character take an unexpected direction has lost touch with 
that character or found heretofore hidden aspects of him/her is always 
a matter of opinion.  So far, Jo has done a masterful job of being 
true to the characters while allowing them to change and also to 
reveal aspects of themselves we hadn't seen.  Several examples come to 
mind of aspects of the characters that I didn't anticipate but that 
fit:  

Ron's romantic interest in Hermione
Harry's hatred for Sirius (mid-PA of course)
Neville's deep dark secret
Snape's having been a spy against Voldemort

etc. etc.

I think Snape is the best example.  We now take for granted that he's 
a good guy.  Who thought this on July 7?  And yet it doesn't challenge 
credulity at all, IMO.  It fits.

Or to give another example:  Harry's irritation about his fame is 
almost entirely a GF phenomenon.  JKR plants it with a couple of 
comments and incidents; in ch 2 it says he got used to everyone 
staring; we see Amos D, Bagman and Karkaroff all do it; we get the 
interaction between Colin and Dennis, and Harry's reaction to it.  
These are small but significant signs that set up the explosion 
between Harry and Ron.  If you'd asked me at the end of PA whether 
Harry felt his fame to be a heavy burden, I'd have said, "not really." 
 By chapter 12 of GF I would have said "definitely"; and yet it didn't 
come out of the blue.  And, as with the shipping, I can look back and 
find traces of it in the earlier books, but only because I'm looking.

Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if Hermione fell in love with Ron, 
Harry, or Neville for that matter--as long as Jo builds up to whatever 
happens with the same skill she used in the above examples.

Amy Z

P.S. to those using the abbreviation R/Hr:  it does not clarify, since 
HaRry and HeRmione both have "r" as their third letter.  How about 
using R/He and R/Ha if you're concerned we'll get mixed up.

P.P.S. re: Gryffindor lion, a griffin has a lion's body and an eagle's 
head, so a lion is a logical choice.  But I bet Amanda knew that.

--------------------------------------------------------
Dudley thought for a moment.  It looked like hard work.
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
--------------------------------------------------------




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  8 01:59:11 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:59:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House-badges/devices
References: <986b66+85bd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6E76E.16638449@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13839

pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no wrote:

> Yes, I also think it is referred to as rampant somewhere, but is it
> referred to as rampant when describing a Gryffindor-banner, or when
> describing the hogwarts arms?  I do not remember.

I think it's when it's talking about the Gryffindor banner, as I dimly
recall, but not which book. Nor do I have them to hand, alas. Argh.
Those of us who are anal need to have extra copies.

>  I do not think that the use of the term rampant in the books is as
> strictly adhering to the rules of heraldry as it would be in a
> textbook on heraldry, and therefore rampant to sinister would not
> encessarily be described as such.

Well, yeah, but you were using a bit more heraldic jargon yourself than
I'm used to hearing, living in a country where living, breathing
armigers are rare and "crest" commonly means coat of arms. It sounded
like you had a specific citation or text justification for knowing the
lion faced to sinister.

I didn't for a minute think the words "rampant to sinister" occurred in
the books; I just thought you might have seen some "to the left" or "to
the right" or something similar that made you so certain.

Otherwise, the most "honorable" part of a shield was the dexter chief
(that's upper left, to those of you looking at it), and so in most
heraldry the animals tended to face that direction by default. The lions
of England face to dexter, and lions facing that way probably just look
right, for no reason a person in the street could put a finger on, for
you Brits out there. So the Gryffindor device is to dexter; makes sense
to me.

>  I think the word rampant when used in the books should probably be
> taken as a general description of an animal standing upright (which is
> what my dictionary gives as the meaning of "rampant" when used about
> animals).

I don't. Brits as a rule are a bit more aware of heraldry than
Americans. Wish I could find my references, but I seem to recall that
JKR was pretty descriptive of the positions of the other animals, albeit
they were described in English and not heraldese. I could be totally
wrong, but I still think that an English person is familiar enough with
"rampant" and heraldic depictions to know what that particular term of
jargon means.

>  Given that the Hogwarts arms are the only visual evidence of the
> Gryffindor lion in the books, I still hold rampant to sinister as the
> mroe correct choice.

Yeah, but the Hogwarts arms don't appear in the US editions, and other
illustrations I've seen are also not supported by the text. Snape with a
moustache and beard springs to mind--he is illustrated so in one of my
books, over a chapter head, but clearly he is clean-shaven (since JKR
approved the clean-shaven Snape for both the Bode artwork and Rickman's
makeup). So I don't take any artistic interpretation to be solid canon,
especially when artistic balance is so clearly the reason for facing the
lion to sinister in the Hogwarts arms.

> But were not Hufflepuff's colours black and yellow in the first
> place?  A black badger in a yellow field, I believe.

Yeah, I think you're right. As I said I don't have the books to hand,
and my Hogwarts fridge magnet's downstairs. So their quartered field is
the House colors, just as Gryffindor's. Makes sense.

> It is shown visually as rampant regardant - the only memory in my head
> of a description of the hufflepuff device is that of a balck badger on
> yellow.  The best improvement to contrast would of course have been to
> retain the field as uniform yellow.

I was just certain that somewhere there was a description of the
position of the badger, in some aside, but I might be doing the "take
the Hogwarts arms as canon" thing here. Can anyone help us out, here?
Any of you with time on your hands, or who have read this a jillion
times more than I have?

> Still, I think they would have made happier choices by simply
> duplicating what has been displayed at least in th UK-editions for the
> house-arms.

Post a picture file to the group! I haven't seen a UK edition yet.

And yes, I disagree with a couple of aspects of the house "badges," but
still, if 90% of what I think is right is what I get, well hot damn! I
was expecting, in all honesty, something that looked more like the mugs,
or worse. As I've said, these are heraldic, if not strictly canon, and I
think they're just fine.

Byt the way, if you feed people smalahove and keel-haul them when you're
cranky, what do you do when you're truly P.O.'d?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 02:03:03 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:03:03 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
Message-ID: <F2306uIU1Gj03oHMwVN0000235b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13840




 > F: <vbg>? As for Hermione glaring at
 > > Ron being interpreted as a sign of deep affection by R/H ers, the
 > > ACTION of the glare can be intrepreted as indicating that Ron gets
 > > under Hermione's skin, so yes, in essence the 'glare' can be thought
 >
 > > of a sign of deep affection <vbg>.
 >
 > Cass: Okay. If that's your interpretation. She glares at Draco a lot,
 > too.
 > And smacks him. He obviously gets under her skin. *g* I like where
 > THIS train of argument is going.

Heidi<Cassie set this up JUST so I could make my happy little D/H (no, not 
that D?H, although I think there's subtext for that as well) argument
that Draco & Hermione really have potential.>
*g* I love both D/H ships. And *snerk* the "D?H" was a type-o, but that 
certainly sums it up. And I will happily point out all of the subtext 
(subtext - why is everyone so fond of it?) that is blatently pointing to 
Draco/Harry romance. Er - sorry, everyone.

<We, the readers, have little to know idea of what Hermione or Draco do
when they're not hanging out with (for the former) or hanging out near
(for the latter) Harry.
For all we, the readers, know, they've had a regular study date in the
library twice a week for the last two books, or spent a morning together
in Hogsmeade during third year, when she wasn't speaking to Ron or
Harry, and perhaps he's the one who introduced her to Krum...
Maybe we'll find out in book 5...>

Rock on, Heidi. We don't know anything. It's a good philosophy for those of 
us with eclectic preferances. I like the study date theory. Oh, dear. I 
think my ship mates are pointing at a canon. What? No! Don't shoot me over 
to SS Leather Pants! Nooooo!

MC


_________________________________________________________________
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From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 02:03:16 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 02:03:16 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Responses to Firoza (and Cassie) on R/H and Such...
In-Reply-To: <F137NVU5S1aTeeCXjiG00002359@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <986p94+b0b6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13841

Yes - I had to respond because I am so proud of my HP story:

I didn't know a single thing about HP, other than that B&N had huge 
displays in their stores in the children's section (where I love to 
browse, teacher that I am).  I was strangely drawn to the books...

After struggling with my thoughts of "Why are you buying a children's 
book just to read?", I broke down and bought SS.  I knew I was in love 
when Dumbldedore told Harry he had eaten a vomit-flavored Bertie 
Bott's. The rest is history.

I can't count how many times I've read each book, but I never once 
suspected H/H. Howver, to me the tension between R/H was practically 
jumping out of the pages.  I've never even had to go back through the 
books to prove it - it's just there.  I remember having that tension 
when I was a teen (sigh).

My faith in R/H is unwavering!

--Jenny from 




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 02:04:22 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 02:04:22 -0000
Subject: Where to find the H/H Mission Statement
Message-ID: <986pb6+960m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13842

-- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Here's my shipping position up front:  I see the canon drifting 
R/H, but I wouldn't put money on it continuing to do so, JKR being 
the gloriously unpredictable writer that she is, nor do I care a 
shrivelfig whether it does.  

Amy Z, you're one of my favorite people around here.  I love your 
posts, and I mostly agree with the "trees" of your shipping position, 
if not the forest.  At times like these, I wish I could trade your 
cool resolve for my bushel of shrivelfigs.  

I did laugh out loud when I saw that it's been said that the H/Hers 
haven't stated their positions.  The most vocal H/Hers on list 
include a couple of lawyers, a journalist, an English teacher, and a 
scientist or two.  

Not only are we the State Your Position crowd, we have *asked* the 
R/Hers repeatedly to do the same.  Repeatedly.

The Potential Romantic Pairings FAQ is coming.  Until then, let me 
see what I can do to help.  :)

First, there is no blanket H/H "ship position".  Most H/Hers read the 
subtext in various ways.  Some of the posts in which I explain my 
position include 7335, 7284, 10085, 10958, 10997, 12092.  (D/G 
support as early as 2077--I wasn't nearly as vocal pre-Christmas as I 
am now.)  Not all H/H shippers agree with me all the time, though... 
and vice versa.

And Penny has *repeatedly* summed up the supports that most H/Hers 
seen in canon.  Repeatedly.  So repeatedly, in fact, that this was 
the source of my amusement.

Then I realized something.  We haven't been communicating the terms 
of the ship debate very well.  You see, the H/Hers want the R/Hers to 
synthesize all the GoF quotes into theories and postulates.  The 
H/Hers aren't as interested in your list of facts as they are in 
conclusions that can be defended according to logic.

The R/Hers, on the other hand, don't care about our theories.  To 
them, all our theories, all the extrapolated trends we can point to 
in fan writing, all our anecdotes, and all our "gut feelings" are 
bunk... if not sheer insanity.  I do believe that the Ron/Hermione 
camp wants to knows want to know exactly what JKR wrote *in canon* 
that rings the H/H bell in our minds... chapter and verse.  Am I 
correct?

If so, here's my answer.  Keep in mind that this is NOT official H/H 
rhetoric--it's 100% me.  So all dissention should be directed to me, 
not my shipmates.  Thanks in advance!

As I read canon, this is the evidence I see for the He--->Ha aspect 
of FITD.  I am not about to give chapters and a full analysis 
tonight.  I have neither the time nor the inclination.  However, I am 
willing to discuss.

PS/SS
1)  Train scene, first introduction
2)  Post-chess scene, after the Potions test (can't wait to see how 
they interpret that in the upcoming movie)

CoS
Haven't re-read it in a while... nothing sticks out, as Hermione was 
petrified for half the book.  Didn't even think of R/H at the time.  
It did raise the H/G question for me though when I first read it (it 
was my entrance into HP)... but PoA and GoF answered it.

PoA
Whole book, esp. trends in the last 6-7 chapters... led me to write a 
paper on it and 3 other elements of PoA's ending for grad school.  
For the five months between my first read of it and the GoF release, 
my gut was eventual H/H.

GoF
1)  First person Harry thinks of after the Scar dream is Hermione
2) Quidditch World Cup, during the game
3) The post-GoF, pre-First Task stretch of time
4)  House-Elf Liberation Front chapter... sneaking to the kitchens, 
etc.
5)  Post-Second Task (Penny and I have already *explained* how we 
read this)
6)  Third Task and Hermione's reaction (Parker's interp is just how I 
see things...)
And I'd leave it out personally, because I don't think it meant all 
that much, but...
7)  The Kiss

The problem is certainly not that the subtextual evidence for H/H 
that we see in canon has not been explained.  It's just that it isn't 
recognized as valid by some... and I'm sorry, but I can't help you 
there.  :-)

Best,

Ebony AKA AngieJ




From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 02:15:28 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 02:15:28 -0000
Subject: SHIP: RE: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
Message-ID: <986q00+c6io@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13843

Just a few points and then back to LURKDOM :-) 

My reasons for my original post was to: 

a)have subtext and FITD clarified. Penny has done a wonderful job 
there, so thank you for the clarifications :-)

b)voice my opinion. 

Penny wrote:
Well .... if you state an opinion on an internet *discussion* list,
you're opening yourself up to having that opinion be subjected to
questioning.  That's the point.  It's a discussion group so that there
can be back & forth debate. You don't just express opinions & then 
say, "But, I don't want to hear any arguments, and I don't want to 
have to defend my views."  If that's your hope, then you're better 
off being silent on a discussion group, because the whole point is to 
engage in a conversation with one another.

I did not say 'do not respond to my opinions' nor am I adverse to 
hearing any arguments :-) I know that this is a DISCUSSION group, but 
many of you who have been on this list for a long time, DO come 
across as rather intimidating, however UNINTENTIONAL that may be, so 
I just wanted to point out that what I was and AM saying now is not 
meant to offend :-) Feel free to dissect what I have said and voice 
your opinions and views regarding my views :-) 

I have devoted more than three long posts to this discussion already 
today, and have not been afraid defend MY views. I thought that is 
what I was doing in posting initially, defending MY views, but I 
guess that did not come across?

But since I HAVE read most of the shipping debates on this list 
(despite what Cassandra thought <g>), the 'subtext' and FITD 
positions were not clear to me, hence my questioning them. Once 
again, thank you Penny for clarifiying them :-) I will await to read 
the FAQ if I have any further questions regarding these issues. 

Penny wrote:
The Yule Ball debate does not have anything to do with Ron's feelings.
We're all agreed on that score. The Yule Ball debate has to do with
what Hermione meant by her last remark to Ron before she headed 
upstairs after the Yule Ball (and with what might or might not have 
been said by both characters before Harry steps into the Common Room).


Actually, I believe it was Star who had a differing view regarding 
Ron's feelings towards Hermione and that is what IMO started 
the 'Yule Ball' debate, which has since turned into a debate over 
what Hermione meant by her last remark to Ron :-)

Penny wrote:
H/H types tend to support FITD because (a) it looks like that is where
the canon is headed (our interpretation of all available evidence is
that Hermione likes Harry rather than Ron), and (b) if there is FITD,
there is no R/H and it leaves the possibility of H/H open & on the
table.

I say:
R/H types (NOTE: not ALL R/H fans will agree with this ;-) really 
don't have a concrete theory as to why we see R/H except:

a)it looks like R/H is where the canon is headed (our *or most of 
our* interpretations of all available evidence is that Hermione likes 
RON rather than Harry), and 

b)FITD since it is a theory that leaves the possibility of H/H open 
and on the table for the H/H types, we (or some of us like-minded R/H 
types) don't see it as a possibility (but thanks to Penny's 
clarification of FITD some of us, or more specifically I, can see WHY 
H/H types would see it now :-)

So, once again I will end by saying let us agree to disagree, as fun 
as all this discussion of opinions and views has been :-) Happy 
sailing everyone!

Firoza

*who will try once more to go back to LURKDOM, but if she feels the 
need to, will come back to defend her opinions ;-)*



 





From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  8 02:17:38 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:17:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heraldry
References: <986onv+rm8i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6EBC2.3AB41F17@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13844

Amy Z wrote:

> P.P.S. re: Gryffindor lion, a griffin has a lion's body and an eagle's
> head, so a lion is a logical choice.  But I bet Amanda knew that.

Yeah, but griffins were a classical monster, as I recall, and have been
a common charge in heraldry from the 15th century or so. Common enough
for me to suspect that JKR wanted the associations of the lion (king of
beasts, symbol of authority, nobility, longtime association with royalty
of England, etc.) that the griffin simply does not have (for the modern
reader).

--Amanda

P.S.--Griffins more correctly are the front half of an eagle and the
back half of a lion. Their forward limbs are the legs and claws of an
eagle, and they have wings. They do have tufty feathery ears, though.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 02:19:27 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 21:19:27 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:ship:  JK  chat, R/H vs. H/H
Message-ID: <fe.3512315.27d8462f@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13845

In a message dated 3/7/2001 8:12:21 PM EST, editor at texas.net writes:

<< No, no, there's lots of us here. But by definition, we're not in a ship
 at all; we're bobbing around in inner tubes, drinking beer and watching
 the fireworks shows from the big ships (a la tubing down the Guadalupe,
 for you Texans). Just paddle over. Want a nacho?
 
 --Amanda
  >>

Glad to hear there's lots of us!  I think Harry would get a kick out of 
tubing after all those years of tension and misery at the Dursleys and 
fighting Voldy.  He deserves a nice vacation in the Texas hills!  Please pass 
the nachos and make my beer Shiner Boch!  But I'm going to keep on calling my 
innertube the Skhiff Defiance.

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From margdean at erols.com  Thu Mar  8 02:41:47 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:41:47 -0500
Subject: Four Elements/Houses, was Raven vs. Eagle
References: <986hg3+1phf@eGroups.com> <3AA6DF49.14612B63@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AA6F16B.BE3CF95F@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13846

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> By the way, I haven't had time to look into it, but the badger's a
> pretty respected creature of the earth. I haven't had time to research
> the badger's and snake's heraldic histories, but it'd be fun if I could
> tie them to the four elements, eh?.

Just off the top of my head and without doing any research, I'd
peg them:

Lion/Gryffindor/fire
Eagle/Ravenclaw/air
Badger/Hufflepuff/earth
Snake/Slytherin/water


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From margdean at erols.com  Thu Mar  8 02:48:06 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:48:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heraldry
References: <986onv+rm8i@eGroups.com> <3AA6EBC2.3AB41F17@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AA6F2E6.EE3552F@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13847

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> P.S.--Griffins more correctly are the front half of an eagle and the
> back half of a lion. Their forward limbs are the legs and claws of an
> eagle, and they have wings. They do have tufty feathery ears, though.

Except if they're male, in which case they are wingless, but have
spiky tufts scattered here and there over their bodies.

I am =not= making this up.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  8 02:32:39 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:32:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Four Elements/Houses, was Raven vs. Eagle
References: <986hg3+1phf@eGroups.com> <3AA6DF49.14612B63@texas.net> <3AA6F16B.BE3CF95F@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6EF46.2C829397@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13848

Margaret Dean wrote:

> Just off the top of my head and without doing any research, I'd peg
> them:
>
> Lion/Gryffindor/fire
> Eagle/Ravenclaw/air
> Badger/Hufflepuff/earth
> Snake/Slytherin/water

Well, yeah, that's how I'd ranked them, but the lion and snake's
associations seem a bit shaky to me, and I'd wanted to shore them up
with something. Any bells ringing for anyone out there? Because a snake
is a creature of the earth, too, when you think about it, although JKR
did have the entrance to the Chamber through a bathroom, via the pipes.
And bravery as a main characteristic sits well with fire, yes? Other
thoughts? Had this been discussed before and done to death before I
joined and started my chart-topping voluminous posting?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 02:34:05 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:34:05 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where to find the H/H Mission Statement
Message-ID: <F10653PMAbj1dGatRVA0000243c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13849


Ebony wrote:
<Then I realized something.  We haven't been communicating the terms
of the ship debate very well.  You see, the H/Hers want the R/Hers to
synthesize all the GoF quotes into theories and postulates.  The
H/Hers aren't as interested in your list of facts as they are in
conclusions that can be defended according to logic.

The R/Hers, on the other hand, don't care about our theories.  To
them, all our theories, all the extrapolated trends we can point to
in fan writing, all our anecdotes, and all our "gut feelings" are
bunk... if not sheer insanity.  I do believe that the Ron/Hermione
camp wants to knows want to know exactly what JKR wrote *in canon*
that rings the H/H bell in our minds... chapter and verse.  Am I
correct?>

No. Not from over here, anyway. I am a believer in "gut feelings", etc., I 
think that with some logic and some text, you can make one hell of an 
argument with them. There *is* no cannon romance yet; asking for where 
exactly you see exaples of H/H is insane. All I have ever wanted is to know 
is *why* you see it the way you do. Then again, as R/Hers go, I seem to be 
quite the freak.

Part of this statement makes me think of one of my shipper opinions (about 
the people, not characters). Cassie will hurt me if I use the "cool kid" 
thing, so....H/Hers seem like they are just more pulled together and suave 
about things than R/H shippers, who are more like country bumpkins to the 
H/H city slickers. And that's not ment as a R/H slam, it's just the 
sterotype. *wince* Don't take that in the wrong way. Damn, I think I need to 
use the Cool Kid thing as a clarifacation. H/H seem like the "cool kids" on 
the perverbial Shipper playground. They are the famous ones (Cassandra, 
Lori, Carole, Ebony, Sue, Penny, etc.). Meanwhile, R/Hers are the 
slightly-less-than-popular kids [and then there's the Draco/Harry shippers, 
who are the stoners of the playground. Woah, dude].

And Ebony - the after potions test, post-chess thing? I have no clue what 
reference that one was to... Help?

MC
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From hermitchick at crosswinds.net  Thu Mar  8 02:35:42 2001
From: hermitchick at crosswinds.net (Persephone)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:35:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: RE: not so long response (was Long Post  Re: R/HYule Ball
References: <F2887M6ggPSDpTgzeKu0000766f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6EFFB.DF7A336@crosswinds.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13850



Morsus Crustum wrote:

> Oh, and Elizabeth - I can't currently switch ships. I am one of the
> few
> Harry/Draco shippers. In cannon I think he'll be alone, * but * who
> will put
> in inapropriate H/D comments if I stop?
>
>
> MC

There are too few of us no?  We must band together, or something like
that.  Ok, so I defend anything slash, but that's not the point.  It's
good to see that's there's some Harry/Draco shippers on this list.   We
need some more, come on people you know you like the pairing, so join
the revolution!  Hmm... maybe I should leave now befor I get killed by
angry het shippers.

btw there are more that a few H/D shippers on the net, I have almost a
hundred on my Harry/Draco list </ML pimping>

--
-Kate,  who's always a Slytherin no matter what quiz she takes, am I
that bad?
85% obsessed with Harry Potter

"So we reach into the raging chaos, and we pluck some
small glittering thing, and we cling to it, and tell
ourselves it has meaning, and that the world is good,
and we are not evil and we will all go home in the end."
- Lestat, "Tale of the Body Thief" by Anne Rice

Persephone's Lair: http://geocities.com/hermitchick
Harry and Draco Archive: http://geocities.com/harry_and_draco



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar  8 02:44:56 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 02:44:56 -0000
Subject: Where to find the H/H Mission Statement
In-Reply-To: <F10653PMAbj1dGatRVA0000243c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <986rn8+1mdu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13851

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Morsus Crustum" <slytherin_daughter at h...> 
wrote:
> 
> Part of this statement makes me think of one of my shipper opinions 
(about   the people, not characters). Cassie will hurt me if I use 
the "cool kid"  thing, so....H/Hers seem like they are just more 
pulled together and suave  about things than R/H shippers, who are 
more like country bumpkins to the  H/H city slickers. And that's not 
ment as a R/H slam, it's just the  sterotype. *wince* Don't take that 
in the wrong way. Damn, I think I need to   use the Cool Kid thing as 
a clarifacation. H/H seem like the "cool kids" on  the perverbial 
Shipper playground. They are the famous ones (Cassandra,  Lori, 
Carole, Ebony, Sue, Penny, etc.). Meanwhile, R/Hers are the   
slightly-less-than-popular kids [and then there's the Draco/Harry 
shippers,  who are the stoners of the playground. Woah, dude].
> 
> And Ebony - the after potions test, post-chess thing? I have no 
clue what 
> reference that one was to... Help?
> 
***** 
Well, since I'm a Draco/Harry and/or Hermione/Draco shipper primarily 
(I can't choose between my favorites) and an H/H shipper secondarily, 
what does that make me? <g>

And Ebony means the Hermione throwing her arms around Harry and 
telling him he's a great wizard, brave and courageous, and all that, 
in Book 1.

Cassie




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  8 02:46:19 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:46:19 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heraldry
References: <986onv+rm8i@eGroups.com> <3AA6EBC2.3AB41F17@texas.net> <3AA6F2E6.EE3552F@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6F27B.187AEF3D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13852

Margaret Dean wrote:

> Amanda Lewanski wrote:
>
> > P.S.--Griffins more correctly are the front half of an eagle and the
>
> > back half of a lion. Their forward limbs are the legs and claws of
> an
> > eagle, and they have wings. They do have tufty feathery ears,
> though.
>
> Except if they're male, in which case they are wingless, but have
> spiky tufts scattered here and there over their bodies.
>
> I am =not= making this up.

Sorry, moderators. I'll be quiet after this unless it's HP heraldry.

>From Stephen Friar's wonderful "A Dictionary of Heraldry," under
griffin:

"There is in armory a separate animal called the male griffin, which has
sharp spikes protruding from its body instead of wings. However, there
is no suggestion of this version amongst legendary griffins, and in
these stories there does not appear to be any distinction between male
and female, and in armory both creatures posess the usual male
attributes."

Which means that in heraldry there's a creature called a male griffin,
that looks different from a run-of-the-mill griffin, but that both are
depicted as, um, having a pizzle, if you get my drift (and the usually
rampant position leaves little to the imagination....not to mention in
period heraldry where lots of times it was colored a bright, contrasting
color just like the claws or tongue!). Male griffins seem to be found
only in heraldry, too. And where little griffins come from remains
anyone's guess.

On behalf of the moderators, and to ameliorate their wrath that I didn't
move this to the Chatter group, I will ask that any theorizing about the
origins of young griffins appear there. <g>

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morine10 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 02:51:56 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 21:51:56 EST
Subject: SHIP:  Waving the White Flag
Message-ID: <e1.114e5ac9.27d84dcc@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13853

<Mo is launched in the R/H dinghy, white hanky dangling from the end of her 
wand.>

Apparently as R/H First Mate, one of my duties was to recruit an official  
message bearer.  Since I slacked, it seems I must do this myself.  So please, 
hold your fire! <VBG>

Firoza:
> My statements are NOT meant to be taken issue of, they are
> as I have stressed my opinions only :-)
Penny:
Well .... if you state an opinion on an internet *discussion* list,
you're opening yourself up to having that opinion be subjected to
questioning.  That's the point.  It's a discussion group so that there
can be back & forth debate.  You don't just express opinions & then say,
"But, I don't want to hear any arguments, and I don't want to have to
defend my views."  If that's your hope, then you're better off being
silent on a discussion group, because the whole point is to engage in a
conversation with one another.

Mo:
While I don't think that my dear shipmate was attempting to quell the battle, 
I do think she was trying to prevent mass casualties.  I think she was trying 
to avoid ill-will and harsh feelings.  All in good fun!  Eh Firoza?


> Cassandra -
>Hooray for all 30 year olds who love HP as much as we do!
> Anyway, I am also a die hard R/H shipper, and cannot for the life 
of  me see into a H/H thing.  It just doesn't work.
> The kiss - ah, the kiss!  Made no impression on me.  I though 
Hermione  gave Harry a "I'm glad you're okay and will be worrying about you 
over  the summer and I'm quite maternal" sort of kiss.  Hermione can show 
affections to Harry that Ron cannot without being called a "swotty 
 little Nancy boy".  I wouldn't want Harry and Hermione to date anyway.  
Something about  that is stupid to me.  'Nuff said.
> --Jenny from Rav

***
*scratches head.* I am not thirty. Nor do I think there is anything 
to the H/H kiss. Never have I thought there was anything to it. All I 
said was that it is an action open  to interpretation. My 
interpretation is that it doesn't mean much.

Cassandra

Flag Bearing Mo:
Seems to be a little confusion on who-said-what.  I know I sometimes get 
dazed and confused. <g>  It's been especially hard since these back and forth 
posts have been oh-so-long!  I believe, Jenny, that you meant to quote 
Firoza. But *this* 30 year old thanks you for the Hooray!

Cassie wrote:
>Well, just now I went through the archives and gave up after finding 
>more than forty posts on exactly this topic. I am very unclear how 
>you managed to miss them, as there have been several after Christmas. 

AmyZ:
I haven't seen them either.  Maybe it's been gone over so many times 
that H/Hers assume that when they allude to this subtext, it's clear 
what they mean.  I'm open to seeing it (since joining HPforGU, I've 
looked for it as I've reread the books--and even found it here and 
there!) but since joining this list just before Christmas, I don't 
believe I've seen a simple list of phrases/incidents/etc. that support 
Hermione Likes Harry.
I know such a list is coming in the FAQ, and I don't want to throw 
gasoline on what seems to be a fire in a jam jar...I just want you to 
know that it's not only rabid R/Hers who plain old just don't get the 
H/H argument.

Flag Waving Mo:
Thanks AmyZ! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one and that it's not just the 
R/H-ers. :)  That said, perhaps we could be a little less harsh?  I know it 
gets tedious when you feel you're repeating yourself (I teach middle school, 
I AM a broken record! <g>) But I think that a gentle reminder is all that is 
necessary. I for one read EVERY shipping post but I still don't have a clear 
understanding of the H/H argument.  Perhaps I'm a bit thick or perhaps, as 
Amy stated, it isn't as clear as some think.  Who knows?  I know I'm eagerly 
awaiting the FAQ's.  :)

Ebony:
This is why we don't cluster and only talk to one another all the 
time in places where disparate PoVs are not encouraged.  It gets 
boring talking about how right we are and how much Harry and Hermione 
are meant to be with other like-minded souls.  Not to mention "time 
consuming."  

Now, now Ebony!  I don't think that's fair!  We may have our ship in common, 
but it's hardly an "I sooo agree with you- you're so right-kiss-kiss-Love 
Fest."  We enjoy discussing and arguing the books as much as anyone. :)  
Speaking for myself, I enjoy hearing and discussing other POV's.  That's why 
I belong to this list.  I also enjoy a plethora of fanfic, which includes 
several authors that subscribe to this list. :)  

Just because some of us get together to discuss canon, fanfic, etc. as OBHF <g
>  on the Good Ship R/H, it does NOT mean that we don't enjoy a good debate! 
Why just the other day Cap'n Kathy and I got into a rather heated row over 
what to do about the loo. (I still say that a nice tan tile will compliment 
the Weasley-red towels and accessories.  She has her heart set on dragon 
stencils Yuck!)  It took three petty officers and one house-elf to separate 
us!  And I won't even go into the the spats I've had over who thinks they can 
beat me at chess!  Ebony, do stop by and *tell* them that I am *that* good.  <
VBG>


-Mo
R/H First Mate and Champion Wizarding Chess Player :)
Still waving the white hanky!  Hold your fire until I get out of this damn 
dinghy, please!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Wonderful girl.  Either I'm going to kill her or I'm beginning to like her."
       -Han Solo, Star Wars Episode IV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From margdean at erols.com  Thu Mar  8 03:12:38 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:12:38 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heraldry
References: <986onv+rm8i@eGroups.com> <3AA6EBC2.3AB41F17@texas.net> <3AA6F2E6.EE3552F@erols.com> <3AA6F27B.187AEF3D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AA6F8A6.122E703A@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13854

Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> 
> Margaret Dean wrote:
> 
> > Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> >
> > > P.S.--Griffins more correctly are the front half of an eagle and the
> > > back half of a lion. Their forward limbs are the legs and claws of
> > > an eagle, and they have wings. They do have tufty feathery ears,
> > > though.
> >
> > Except if they're male, in which case they are wingless, but have
> > spiky tufts scattered here and there over their bodies.
> >
> > I am =not= making this up.
> 
> Sorry, moderators. I'll be quiet after this unless it's HP heraldry.

Oops!  I apologize too, for aiding and abetting an OT thread. 
Although . . .

Can't you just see Hagrid showing off a shipment of male griffins
in his "Care of Magical Creatures" class?

Student:  "But I thought griffins had wings."

Hagrid:  "Th' females do, right enough, but these here are the
males.  Cute, aren't they?  Go ahead an' pet 'em, jus' be careful
o' the spikes . . ."  


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From hermitchick at crosswinds.net  Thu Mar  8 02:59:15 2001
From: hermitchick at crosswinds.net (Persephone)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:59:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where to find the H/H Mission Statement
References: <F10653PMAbj1dGatRVA0000243c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6F582.B0492F4D@crosswinds.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13855



Morsus Crustum wrote:

> No. Not from over here, anyway. I am a believer in "gut feelings",
> etc., I
> think that with some logic and some text, you can make one hell of an
> argument with them. There *is* no cannon romance yet; asking for where
>
> exactly you see exaples of H/H is insane. All I have ever wanted is to
> know
> is *why* you see it the way you do. Then again, as R/Hers go, I seem
> to be
> quite the freak.
>

I agree with you, there isn't  cannon romance yet; they're 14 at the
moment, no need for romance you.  But then again at 14 there were kids
at school who already had kids; but that's evil American public school,
the growth place of the vialest of vermin.  (you can see I love school)


>
> Part of this statement makes me think of one of my shipper opinions
> (about the people, not characters). Cassie will hurt me if I use the
> "cool kid"
> thing, so....H/Hers seem like they are just more pulled together and
> suave about things than R/H shippers, who are more like country
> bumpkins to the
> H/H city slickers. And that's not ment as a R/H slam, it's just the
> sterotype. *wince* Don't take that in the wrong way. Damn, I think I
> need to use the Cool Kid thing as a clarifacation. H/H seem like the
> "cool kids" on the perverbial Shipper playground. They are the famous
> ones (Cassandra, Lori, Carole, Ebony, Sue, Penny, etc.). Meanwhile,
> R/Hers are the slightly-less-than-popular kids

Has absolutely no idea what the hell that whole paragraph ment.  I'm an
idiot slasher:P

> [and then there's the Draco/Harry shippers, who are the stoners of the
> playground. Woah, dude]

Whoa, I get to be one of the stoners?  How cool is that?  Join the H/D
stoner movement!  Because... we just rock or something, I have like a
head ache or something now:( Ignore the creapy goth chick:P  You'll be
better off if you do.

--
-Kate,  Slytherine anyone else?
85% obsessed with Harry Potter

"So we reach into the raging chaos, and we pluck some
small glittering thing, and we cling to it, and tell
ourselves it has meaning, and that the world is good,
and we are not evil and we will all go home in the end."
- Lestat, "Tale of the Body Thief" by Anne Rice

Persephone's Lair: http://geocities.com/hermitchick
Harry and Draco Archive: http://geocities.com/harry_and_draco



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 03:17:36 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 03:17:36 -0000
Subject: Music
In-Reply-To: <96.11043eab.27d7df6e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <986tkg+e77m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13856

Hedwig wrote: 
"I agree, the very beginning is very much like Home Alone. Someone 
else also mentioned the corrolation with Chris Columbus (who was not 
the first choice to direct this film) acting as director for the film 
as well as having done HA.
 
"With smatterings of IJ and SW thrown in throughout the trailer as 
well. Williams doing the soundtrack will be excellent. He's one of 
the best theatrical composers, if not THE best, out there."

--The best? Erm, no offence or anything, he's just not my favourite. 
Not that it doesn't fit SOME things. BTW I took out my copy of Home 
Alone, and I swear it was almost identical in some spots. I even 
tried to close my eyes throughout the trailer to concentrate on the 
music as someone suggested, but I gave in by the time they walked 
into the great hall.

I have a definite idea of what the HP music should be, and whilst I 
think that the John Williams will do the movie justice, there is 
something about cloisters and Gregorian Chants that seem to go 
together. Having visited many cathederals its a hard get that image 
out of my head. However I don't think that we should turn Hogwarts 
into a monastery. But there MUST be a choir (someone suggested that 
the sorting hat leads it) and I can hear them chanting/singing in 
latin at dawn...

I'm "SURE" that he remember reading something about John Williams 
composing this spring and recording in London in APRIL. If that's 
true (most likely isn't and I most likely made it up. Anyone?) then 
it CAN'T be the HP music.

Scott
Who would love to be in the "HP Orchestra". I don't think that they 
need a meager pianist or a sitar player though. (Well I don't 
actually play the sitar, but I'm planning on learning...)




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 03:39:11 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:39:11 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where to find the H/H Mission Statement
Message-ID: <F17xpAOAkK5LqN33HFn00002203@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13857


Persephone wrote:
<There are too few of us no?  We must band together, or something like
that.  Ok, so I defend anything slash, but that's not the point.  It's
good to see that's there's some Harry/Draco shippers on this list.   We
need some more, come on people you know you like the pairing, so join
the revolution!  Hmm... maybe I should leave now befor I get killed by
angry het shippers.

btw there are more that a few H/D shippers on the net, I have almost a
hundred on my Harry/Draco list </ML pimping>>

This is rapidly becoming an OT tango, but yes, I know there are more than a 
few altogether. As far as I know, Rhysenn is the offical capitan of the 
motley crew that is the D/H shippers.

Cass wrote:
<Well, since I'm a Draco/Harry and/or Hermione/Draco shipper primarily
(I can't choose between my favorites) and an H/H shipper secondarily,
what does that make me? <g>>

*ponders, consults sterotype list* you're one of those jocks who pops speed 
so you can stay up all night cramming. I forgot to tell you what D/Hermione 
shippers are - they're the more the yoga-y, granola head, yuppie, hippie, 
out there kids. Think tye die. Think peace. So that applies because....you, 
um, Christ, I don't know. And if you fashion yourself to be such a D/H 
shipper, why must you pair him with *Hermione*? Gah. Unsolved Mysteries.

MC



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  8 03:36:16 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:36:16 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Where to find the H/H Mission Statement
References: <986pb6+960m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA6FE30.2B00EA2B@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13858

Hi --

Ebony AKA AngieJ wrote:

> I did laugh out loud when I saw that it's been said that the H/Hers
> haven't stated their positions.  The most vocal H/Hers on list
> include a couple of lawyers, a journalist, an English teacher, and a
> scientist or two.

Not only that, but we've been accused of being "too vocal," "overly
vehement," and "intimidating."  How can we be all those things and still
unclear about our position(s)?  <g>

> The Potential Romantic Pairings FAQ is coming.  Until then, let me
> see what I can do to help.  :)

It's written.  It does, however, need to be updated with uh ... a "few"
message numbers from today's postings.  As soon as Lexicon Steve clears
his plate, he's supposed to start converting and uploading the FAQs that
have been written thus far.  I'm leaving the techie areas to the techie
folks, so I can't promise anyone when this might be.  I can tell you
that somewhere between 1/3 & 1/2 of the FAQs are written & largely ready
to be uploaded.  Another percentage are in some stage of completion.

> And Penny has *repeatedly* summed up the supports that most H/Hers
> seen in canon.  Repeatedly.  So repeatedly, in fact, that this was
> the source of my amusement.

Yes.  :::cough::::   I've definitely been told over and over and over
again that I'm too vocal, too vehement, etc. in my defense of H/H.  I
have posted summaries of the general H/H arguments at various points,
but I can't point you to specific message #s unfortunately.

> GoF
> 1)  First person Harry thinks of after the Scar dream is Hermione
> 2) Quidditch World Cup, during the game
> 3) The post-GoF, pre-First Task stretch of time

She means the Harry/Ron Fight in (3) if it's not clear.  Hermione chose
to spend virtually all her time with Harry from what we can tell.

> 4)  House-Elf Liberation Front chapter... sneaking to the kitchens,
> etc.
> 5)  Post-Second Task (Penny and I have already *explained* how we
> read this)
> 6)  Third Task and Hermione's reaction (Parker's interp is just how I
> see things...)
> And I'd leave it out personally, because I don't think it meant all
> that much, but...
> 7)  The Kiss

I'd add in: Krum's conversation with Harry.  I find this to be very
significant.  He clearly doesn't regard Ron as a romantic rival, but he
does see Harry as enough of a rival to confront him about it.  So, 18-yr
old Viktor Krum thinks Hermione's actions indicate a possible romantic
dalliance between her and Harry, and he confronts 14 yr old Harry on
this score.  Seems reasonably significant to me.  He doesn't cite the
Skeeter articles as the basis for his suspicions either.  He says it's
because Hermione talks about Harry all the time.  He doesn't say that
she talks about Harry and Ron all the time.  She talks about Harry all
the time.  If only Harry had said, "Well, she probably talks about Ron
alot too."  Think how the H/H position would be strengthened if Krum had
shrugged and said, "No ... just you."  :--)

Paula wrote:

> -- I'm a sucker for a happy ending.
> -- Which means I wouldn't want to see Ron die
> -- So he should end up with the girl in order to be happy, and I
> think even the H/Hers do agree that currently, R likes H.
>
Paula, you're probably too new to realize you've stepped in a virtual
land mine with that last comment.  That's the "consolation prize"
argument, which the H/H types hate with a passion.  That is: Harry has
everything (fame, wealth) so Ron should "get the girl."  We maintain
that Hermione is not some prize to be won, and Ron must earn her
affection & love if he's to have her.  :--)

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  8 03:44:32 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:44:32 -0600
Subject: SHIP: RE: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
References: <986q00+c6io@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA70020.554BF508@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13859

Hi --

firoza10 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Just a few points and then back to LURKDOM :-)
>
> My reasons for my original post was to:
>
> a)have subtext and FITD clarified. Penny has done a wonderful job
> there, so thank you for the clarifications :-)

Glad to have helped.  The FAQ will be more helpful .... and will
hopefully be available soon.

> I did not say 'do not respond to my opinions' nor am I adverse to
> hearing any arguments :-)

I was merely responding to this statement that you made in response to
Carole:

        <<<My statements are NOT meant to be taken issue of, they are as
I have stressed my opinions only :-)>>>>

> I have devoted more than three long posts to this discussion already
> today, and have not been afraid defend MY views. I thought that is
> what I was doing in posting initially, defending MY views, but I
> guess that did not come across?

No, it did.  I was just taken aback that you didn't think Carole should
debate with you.  You seemed very affronted that she had responded to
your post.  She said that she was taking issue with one of your
statements and explained why.  You replied that your statements were not
to be taken issue with and were merely opinions.  I was just noting that
if you make a statement of opinion in an internet discussion group,
you're opening yourself up to having someone disagree with you.  That's
all.

> Actually, I believe it was Star who had a differing view regarding
> Ron's feelings towards Hermione and that is what IMO started
> the 'Yule Ball' debate, which has since turned into a debate over
> what Hermione meant by her last remark to Ron :-)

Correct.  :--)

Penny (who really should be finishing an ASA scene before Carole kills
her ....)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 03:59:41 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 03:59:41 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Re: Waving the White Flag
Message-ID: <98703d+ncuq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13860

Mo:
While I don't think that my dear shipmate was attempting to quell the 
battle, I do think she was trying to prevent mass casualties.  I 
think she was trying to avoid ill-will and harsh feelings.  All in 
good fun!  Eh Firoza?

You got it in one First Mate Moey! I WAS trying to avoid ill-will and 
harsh feelings and at the same time air my views, in which endevour I 
have apparently sunk <vbg>. My posts ARE meant in good fun! 
Surprising how I have no trouble being understood by my fellow 
shipmate Moey, isn't it, but have been floundering trying to explain 
my views to others <g>? Birds of a feather...

Bouncer Firoza :-)
*who really will now go back to the relative tranquilty of Sugar 
Quill Island, having said her say, waving her white flag behind her! 
Peace, peace my fellow HP fans <vbg>*




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 04:04:06 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 04:04:06 -0000
Subject: SHIP: My comments on yours...(doesn't that sound fun!)
Message-ID: <9870bm+ehnt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13861

Another Shipping debate! Yummy! I wanted to reply to this yesterday 
but I decided not to (ran out of internet time) and anyway there's 
been loads said today that I want to respond to. Anchor's Away!

THE YULE BALL:
Firstly I just have to comment on this because it was a great scene, 
and there are sooo many interpretations of it. I'm a male and I can't 
say that I've ever been in Hermione's position. However I'm not sure 
that I've ever been in Ron's spot either. I think we are all clear on 
Ron's feelings though. He certainly likes Hermione. Even if he 
doesn't realise it yet. Which is interesting because I have a hard 
time believing that he has NO inkling of his feelings toward 
Hermione. (Is he thinking: "Hmmm lets see I really like her. she's 
one of my best friends. I really want to ask her out. I think about 
her a lot. I must like...no there's no way I like her." Seriously.)
I'm only saying that knowing that I have been a 14 year old boy and I 
don't think I was that blind to my emotions. I do agree however that 
Ron doesn't have all his feelings worked out yet.  Erm, back to 
Hermione...

I interpreted this as Hermione saying "Ron you're such a prat. Don't 
complain about a situation that has nothing to do with you, and the 
only reason it has nothing to do with you is because you didn't TRY 
to get involved until you realised that you didn't like the outcome." 
IOW, she was annoyed that Ron was being stupid by complaining about 
something just because he didn't like it, but not trying to do 
anything about it. If it bothered him THAT MUCH why didn't he just 
ask her? 

Firoza wrote:
"Perhaps I missed something? If Ron's feelings are quite clear in 
GoF, how is that 'subtext'? So how can R/H-er's and myself included 
have interpreted the subtext to conlude that Ron likes Hermione and 
Hermione likes Ron if 'Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF'? I 
believe that you misunderstood me :-) What I was saying is that IMO 
there is more evidence for a 'subtext' meaning between Ron and 
Hermione than there is for H/H, since I see the R/H interactions in 
GoF as subtle and implied, NOT 'clear' just as H/H fans see a subtext 
meaning."

--You don't see R/H as clear in GoF? I do and I'm a H/H shipper! 
Goggling over the fact. I mean it's painfully obvious what Ron's 
feelings are, or am I missing your point? Sure we don't know what 
Hermoine wants, but there's nothing subtle about Ron's feelings, IMO.

Ebony wrote:
"The most intriguing thing in any potential romance subplot is this:  
JKR has held back from spelling out Hermione's feelings.  I've read 
*a lot* of serial fiction in which an author follows a remarkable 
character and their friends from youth to maturity... and I've rarely 
seen so much smoke and mirrors when it came to developing 
attractions."

--Why is this? Is it because Harry is possibly less perceptive of 
other people's feelings since he was in a sense isolated from 
feelings in his "Dursley years"? Could the fact that we aren't sure 
of Hermione's feelings be that they are more subtle than Rons and 
Harry (and in turn the reader) don't pick up on them? Maybe, whilst 
JKR wants to create the right amount of romance in the books as to 
correspond to the characters ages (I think it's safe to say however 
that they wont become Harlequin Romances) she is only emphasising 
relationships that might have some bearing on the plot. 

Meaning maybe Penny was right in saying that Ron could unwittingly 
betray Harry b/c of his feelings toward Hermione. A theory that I 
stand beside wholeheartedly. Sorry Ron fans but I do. And don't be 
offended I did say "unwittingly".

Also Ron has a crush on Hermione. A crush. It is just as easy to have 
a crush on someone you've never met (i.e. Movie Stars, Singers, 
Fictional Characters *ahem*). A crush is the object of desire, not 
necessarily the object of affection. Ron already loves Hermione (and 
Harry) very much as a friend. The affection, in a romantic sense, 
that I am talking about it totally different. He only desires (even 
unknowingly) to have a romantic relationship with Hermione. The love 
that already exists isn't romantic.

I am H/H and almost by default that means a FITDer too. I'm not 
saying that we can 'read' Hermione at this point, but I see Hermione 
and Harry as being more likely to "get together" post-canon because 
they are well suited for each other (most-so than R/H. But don't get 
that started. I think it boils down to how we view relationships).

Scott
Who isn't sure whether he wants JKR to include a(n?) epilouge at the 
end of books seven or just allow us to wonder...








From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 04:09:59 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 04:09:59 -0000
Subject: Lack of Wizard Sport...
Message-ID: <9870mn+kld8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13862

I love Quidditch, and you don't know how much I would love to play 
it, or to just have a broom to fly on...(wouldn't we all?) Anyway it 
occured to me how strange it seems that Qudditch seems to be one of 
if not THE only wizarding sport of which we've heard. 

Quidditch is comparable to Muggle Soccer (Football), and don't get me 
wrong I LOVE Soccer, but it would get awfully boring if it were the 
only sport. So do you think there are other sports we don't know of 
yet, or is Quidditch it? Do you think that the kids ever play a good 
ol' game of Rugby? 

Scott




From wings909 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 04:23:54 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:23:54 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lack of Wizard Sport...
Message-ID: <c.1236b27f.27d8635a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13863

In a message dated 03/07/2001 11:12:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
harry_potter00 at yahoo.com writes:

<< Quidditch is comparable to Muggle Soccer (Football) >>

I see Quidditch as more of a combination of football (soccer), hockey, 
baseball, and basketball.  Maybe one day in the future, we might actually be 
able to PLAY the game instead of reading about it.  

Another thing I love about the game is the commentary of Lee Jordan.  I am 
going to be so sad when he leaves Hogwarts, he totally makes me hysterical.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 04:39:01 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:39:01 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lack of Wizard Sport...
References: <9870mn+kld8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000501c0a789$b40ec980$45e01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 13864

I think there could be hippogryph (sp?) racing, (comparable to horse
racing), watergames/swimming, but I wonder just how many sports we can
come up with, that would be difficult to manipulate using magic. Where
is the fun in sports if you can always be the best simply by using
some magic?
Even in Quidditch the wizzards try to use spells (e.g. the bludger
which focused on Harry), but at least there you have to have the skill
of flying a broom that matters.

Rena

> I love Quidditch, and you don't know how much I would love to play
> it, or to just have a broom to fly on...(wouldn't we all?) Anyway it
> occured to me how strange it seems that Qudditch seems to be one of
> if not THE only wizarding sport of which we've heard.
>
> Quidditch is comparable to Muggle Soccer (Football), and don't get
me
> wrong I LOVE Soccer, but it would get awfully boring if it were the
> only sport. So do you think there are other sports we don't know of
> yet, or is Quidditch it? Do you think that the kids ever play a good
> ol' game of Rugby?
>
> Scott
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted
to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to
sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages,
point your cyberbroomstick at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more
details, contact the Moderator Team at
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>
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hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 05:32:58 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 05:32:58 -0000
Subject: SHIP: RE: My comments on yours...(doesn't that sound fun!)
Message-ID: <9875ia+lj7h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13865

Firoza (moi) wrote:
"Perhaps I missed something? If Ron's feelings are quite clear in 
GoF, how is that 'subtext'? So how can R/H-er's and myself included 
have interpreted the subtext to conlude that Ron likes Hermione and 
Hermione likes Ron if 'Ron's feelings are quite clear in GoF'? I 
believe that you misunderstood me :-) What I was saying is that IMO 
there is more evidence for a 'subtext' meaning between Ron and 
Hermione than there is for H/H, since I see the R/H interactions in 
GoF as subtle and implied, NOT 'clear' just as H/H fans see a subtext 
meaning."

--You don't see R/H as clear in GoF? I do and I'm a H/H shipper! 
Goggling over the fact. I mean it's painfully obvious what Ron's 
feelings are, or am I missing your point? Sure we don't know what 
Hermoine wants, but there's nothing subtle about Ron's feelings, IMO.

Clear, IMHO means that the words "Ron likes Hermione and Hermione 
likes Ron" or WORDS to that effect, appear in the canon :-) Due to 
the diversity of the views on this discussion board, I prefer not to 
use the word CLEAR so lightly <vbg>, since if even one person 
disagrees with Ron liking Hermione, then IMO it is not 'clear' and I 
believe Star is one such person who at this moment in time does not 
see Ron liking Hermione :-). Therefore, I prefer not to use the 
word 'clear' <g>. 

I DO intrepret R/H especially from GoF, but like most H/H fans who 
see hints of Hermione liking Harry, I see HINTS of Ron and Hermione 
mutually liking each other. IMO R/H is still 'subtle' and 'implied' 
but most definitely there <vbg>. I guess if I grade the degree of 
subtlety, Ron liking Hermione is the least 'subtle' while Hermione 
liking Ron (or Harry <g>) is the most subtle. I hope that makes more 
sense :-)

Firoza :-)





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Mar  8 05:52:27 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 05:52:27 -0000
Subject: Raven vs. Eagle
In-Reply-To: <3AA6DF49.14612B63@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9876mr+liel@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13866

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Kelley wrote:
> > Did we ever learn why Ravenclaw's mascot is an eagle rather than a
> > raven?
> Amanda:
> Easiest answer--because it is. Same reason Gryffindor's is a golden 
lion and not a golden griffin (gryffin of gold = gryffin d'or).<<<<<<

Well, yes.  I know what Gryffindor means, I guess I was figuring that 
kids would understand 'lion' better than gryphon, so that's why she 
went with that.  As for the Ravenclaw mascot, it seems less likely 
(to me) that a raven would be that unfamiliar to kids so why change 
it?  Suppose JKR liked the 'eagle' and wanted to keep it in there.  
Aren't ravens 'familiars' though, like cats?  

> > Kelley:
> > I  thought this was a bit strange, and would assume this was
> > deliberately changed for the movie ("why not have a raven as the
> > mascot for Ravenclaw?").
> 
> Amanda:
> Yeah, when things in a coat of arms have the same sound as the name 
of the bearer, it's called a "cant" (like my name in my medieval 
society is Oliphant, and I have an elephant on my arms). Cants are 
fun and instinctive, and I figured they changed it for that, and 
because it seemed to make more sense. <<<<<<<

Haha, I like that.  You're probably right, about this being the 
reason it was changed.  I have no knowledge about this, and have 
found your comments on all of it quite interesting.  

> Amanda:
> <lecture mode/ON> Medievally, though, which is technically when the
> symbols of the houses would have solidified into tradition, the 
eagle was the lord of the birds, as the lion was the lord of beasts. 
They had some tremendously heavy positive symbolism about power and 
virture and stuff like that, hence their frequent use in actual 
heraldry. <lecture
> mode/OFF>
> By the way, I haven't had time to look into it, but the badger's a
> pretty respected creature of the earth. I haven't had time to 
research the badger's and snake's heraldic histories, but it'd be fun 
if I could tie them to the four elements, eh?. <<<<<<<<<<

Yeah, I think it'd be fun.  I'd love to hear more on this.
 
> Amanda:
> ANYway, it's also been postulated (by others) that an eagle was 
Rowena's animagus form, and postulated (by me) that said eagle had 
black claws (most of them do), hence Raven-claw for her name.  But 
this is way too complicated for a movie audience, so they made it a 
raven. Because it seemed logical. I bet. <<<<<<<<<<

I can understand this, but it even seems a complicated stretch for 
JKR, to me.  Occham's razor and all that.  

> > Kelley:
> >  Has JKR ever commented on this?
>
> Amanda:
> Dunno, but she must have okayed it, because there it is, and if it 
were vital to the plot that Ravenclaw bear an eagle, she'd have 
fussed about it. <<<<<<<<<<<

Yeah, I was thinking that as well, that she must have okayed it.  
Perhaps she went with eagle and lion in the books to have a better 
variety of animals as mascots, and eagle is perceived as a 'cooler' 
bird than the raven.  (This way, there wouldn't be two animals 
with "bird-heads" on the crest, and so forth.)  Thanks for the 
clarification, Amanda.

Kelley





From hermitchick at crosswinds.net  Thu Mar  8 05:55:40 2001
From: hermitchick at crosswinds.net (Persephone)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:55:40 -0500
Subject: Slytherin and Death eaters
References: <981qja+89tq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA71EDA.7474BDE8@crosswinds.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13867

MMMfanfic at hotmail.com wrote:

> I am kind of perplexed by the link between the Slytherin House and
> the Death Eaters.  Is Slytherin House an in-house-training-camp for
> future Death Eaters?  Can you imagine what the graduation ceremony
> would be like:
>
> Rosier: let's join the dark Lord.
> Wilkens: And torture some Muggles.
> The Lestranges: And don't forget the Mudblood.
>

I personally think that she makes all the Slytherins look bad in the
books.  They all seam like thugs and evil bastards, and the Griffandors,
who seam to do a lot of rule breaking and cause just as much trouble,
get made out to be the 'good guys'.  I mean just because the majority of
them don't really like the muggleborn students, doesn't mean they all
want to go and torture them.  Also, it's strange that 'all' Death
Eaters, 'cept wormtail, are Slytherins.  That seams improbable that they
are all Slytherins.

> It would be strange if the entire year of Slytherins all become Death
> Eaters. (which seems to be the case with Snape's year, as Sirius has
> implied)  That, seriously, would make one doubt the value of a
> Hogwarts education.  I can understand how two or three may become DE
> but the 'entire gang'?  Even if we take the 'bad seeds' approach
> (i.e. all Slytherins are destined to become Dark Witches and Wizards,
> which even a 12 year-old can't believe.), it's just extreme to think
> that DE=Slytherin.  (I look forward to a non-Slytherin DE, someone
> other than that pathetic rat, Wormtail, who show us, so far, no trait
> of a Gryffindor.)

Well, if all Death Eaters were Slytherins, that doesn't necessarily mean
that all Slytherins are Death Eaters.  (Why does that sound like
geometry class?)   It does seam rather stupid that she made all Death
Eaters Slytherins,  and  an entire class became Death Eater?  That is
even more improbable.  I personally don't see the Slytherins as 'bad'.
Draco is pretty much all talk, his flunkies are the stereotypical goons,
but none of them are really evil.  Were they all really truly evil in
the past?  It confuses me somewhat.

Personally, if I was in any house it would be Slytherin.  And although
I'm not really a 'good' person, trust me on that,  I wouldn't exactly
call myself evil (Although there are people I know who would).  I think
that the Griffandors are made out to be the brave heroes in the book and
the Slytherins are the evil bad guys.  This in its self seams wrong
because most of the traits of the Griffandors are rather impulsive, they
tend to do things without thinking, but because they are brave, they're
good.  And the Slytherins are more ambitious and cunning, which seams to
be a bad trait.

Is anyone as confused as I am now?  Well that was my twisted logic in
work, maybe I should just stick to lurking, it's easier on everyone
else's sanity that way.   btw I made a list for discussing the Slytherin
issues, if you want to talk about it, join us, if not, just ignore me.


-Kate,  join SlytherinsML: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SlytherinsML

85% obsessed with Harry Potter

"So we reach into the raging chaos, and we pluck some
small glittering thing, and we cling to it, and tell
ourselves it has meaning, and that the world is good,
and we are not evil and we will all go home in the end."
- Lestat, "Tale of the Body Thief" by Anne Rice

Persephone's Lair: http://geocities.com/hermitchick
Harry and Draco Archive: http://geocities.com/harry_and_draco



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 05:59:53 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 21:59:53 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Voldy untied Harry's hands
References: <41200133725933610@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <009301c0a794$ffd93fc0$45e01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 13868

>   And of course the eternal question.Why did Voldemort untie
>    Harry and give him back his wand?
>
My take on that, he wanted to show that he could defeat Harry now,
even if he was untied and had his wand. Must be an ego thing, cause he
couldn't kill Harry when he was a baby. Off couse, he didn't think it
would backfire and Harry could escape. I guess no one told him that
Harry's wand was Voldemort's wand's brother. He might have had second
thoughts then and finished Harry off without untieing him first.

Rena



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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 06:14:46 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 01:14:46 -0500
Subject: H/H Mission Statement
Message-ID: <F241i9vdMIoq5ZdfXTV00002d49@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13869

Ebony wrote:

>Then I realized something.  We haven't been communicating the terms
>of the ship debate very well.  You see, the H/Hers want the R/Hers to
>synthesize all the GoF quotes into theories and postulates.  The
>H/Hers aren't as interested in your list of facts as they are in
>conclusions that can be defended according to logic.

>The R/Hers, on the other hand, don't care about our theories.  To
>them, all our theories, all the extrapolated trends we can point to
>in fan writing, all our anecdotes, and all our "gut feelings" are
>bunk... if not sheer insanity.  I do believe that the Ron/Hermione
>camp wants to knows want to know exactly what JKR wrote *in canon*
>that rings the H/H bell in our minds... chapter and verse.  Am I
>correct?

Not exactly...I have no problem with the gut feelings and such.  (The fanfic 
trends, however, are completely unconvincing to me.  If I found fanfiction 
convincing on the matter of canon, I'd think Harry was receiving angsty 
love/lust notes via a certain eagle owl on a regular basis.  Much as I love 
the idea, when I go back to canon I laugh aloud at the very thought.)  I 
just like to see the whole thing laid out.  I'd seen a few of the 
arguments--like the one about the end of the 2nd task, the H/H piece I find 
most convincing both on a gut and an analytical level--but not a whole list 
of Exhibits A through Infinity.  Sorry to make you repeat it, but I've only 
been on the list since late December.

So, thanks, Ebony!  Your chapters and verses were what I wanted to see.  I 
look forward to poring over the messages you list and the passages you cite. 
  They might even convince me to swim over to y'all's cruiseship!

Like you, I hate to be proven wrong.  So I'm not going to do any 
Trelawneyizing here.  Whatever JKR does in Books 5-6-7, I'm sure I'll be 
thinking, "Well, I didn't see THAT coming."

Amy Z
who thought Lupin was a baddie just 'cause the Sneakoscope was whistling on 
the train...so much for prescience

---------------------------------------
If only the hat had mentioned a house
for people who felt a bit queasy,
that would have been the one for him.
     --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------
_________________________________________________________________
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From kathleen at carr.org  Thu Mar  8 05:18:45 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 00:18:45 -0500
Subject: SHIP: How Shippers Come to Be
Message-ID: <200103080616.f286GU612912@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 13870

Well, this has been an interesting day for shipping.  I am finding myself too
worked up at the moment to respond to many of the things that have been said
recently, but I had to reply to this:

MC wrote:
>R/Hr shippers tend to be newer fans of the books. They went from one book to
>the next, and so on, not re-reading a million times * before * moving on.
>They make their opinions, then go back and re-read the books, pulling out
>what supports R/Hr, and convince themselves that Is The Way It Is.
>The idea is - there has been subtle H/H overtures for a long time. But you
>only catch them when you *really* look. Now, obviously, there will be a
>bunch of people yelling "no, no, I have thought it was R/Hr and I was
>reading HP before it was cool!" or "I am a H/H shipper, and I just started
>reading them." I know. It's just a theory. I'm certain there is an exception
>to that rule.


I realize this is just a theory, but I must whole-heartedly disagree with this
interpretation of the Good Ship R/H, at least.  (I obviously cannot speak for
anyone on the SS H/H.)  I, for one, have read each book multiple times and
analyzed and re-analyzed them just as closely as any H/H-er, and I know this
to be true of many of the others aboard my ship as well.  As I said, I know
you were just throwing this out as a theory and I am not trying to flame you
or anything, but I had to respond because, quite frankly, I am really tired of
the insinuation that R/H-ers are somehow not reading the books with same
heightened perception and advanced reasoning as H/H-ers.  True, many younger
fans are R/H, perhaps because it is "the more obvious interpretation", as
H/H-ers might say.  Personally, I see just as many young fans who are H/H
because of the whole Hero-Gets-the-Girl thing, which is a less well-reasoned
position as well.

I completely disagree with the idea that there are "subtle H/H overtures"
(obviously) and I have detailed my reasons for this countless times, so I
won't go into it here.

As long as we're analyzing ship preferences, I would be interested to see how
many other vocal shippers have jumped from one major ship to another at some
point.  I have admitted, reluctantly, that I once was half-heartedly H/H (Hey!
 Admitting is the first step to healing!).  Ebony has said the reverse, as she
went from half-hearted R/H to out-and-out H/H.  What about other people?

And by th by, Firoza has officially been promoted from Bouncer to
Sergeant-at-Arms of the Good Ship R/H, with a Special Service Award for
extreme valor in the face of enemy fire. :)

Captain Kathy of the Good Ship R/H
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 06:31:16 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:31:16 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: How Shippers Come to Be
Message-ID: <96.110a8b41.27d88134@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13871

In a message dated 3/8/2001 1:24:29 AM EST, kathleen at carr.org writes:

<< As long as we're analyzing ship preferences, I would be interested to see 
how
 many other vocal shippers have jumped from one major ship to another at some
 point.  I have admitted, reluctantly, that I once was half-heartedly H/H 
(Hey!
  Admitting is the first step to healing!).  Ebony has said the reverse, as 
she
 went from half-hearted R/H to out-and-out H/H.  What about other people? >>

Count me in that number, please.  I was once an H/H shipper.

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 06:31:50 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 06:31:50 -0000
Subject: Music
In-Reply-To: <986tkg+e77m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98790m+10cpi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13872

Scott wrote:

> I'm "SURE" that he remember reading something about John Williams 
> composing this spring and recording in London in APRIL. If that's 
> true (most likely isn't and I most likely made it up. Anyone?) then 
> it CAN'T be the HP music.
> 

Rames (www.hpgalleries.com, look under movie, then John Williams) says 
 he was composing this summer while at Tanglewood (not while actually 
conducting, one hopes...sighs, reminds herself to get Tanglewood tix 
for a day when there's a guest conductor), and recording the 
soundtrack in August, BUT that he wrote special music for the trailer. 

Parenthetically yours,
Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
   The snake jerked its head toward Uncle Vernon
 and Dudley, then raised its eyes to the ceiling.  
 It gave Harry a look that said quite plainly:
   "*I get that all the time*."
                -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
--------------------------------------------------




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 06:34:22 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:34:22 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: How Shippers Come to Be
Message-ID: <F179IZS2TRqf69aZbLA0000218d@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13873


Now that I have gritted my teeth into a fine powder, I will reply to this. I 
am fighting the urge to jump up and down and scream "I'm a R/Hr shipper! I'm 
a R/Hr shipper!" At this point, everyone is against me. The H/Hers know I'm 
not one of them, and the R/Hers are acting like I'm from Mars. I'm one of 
you, damn it!

MC wrote:
 >R/Hr shippers tend to be newer fans of the books. They went from one book 
to
 >the next, and so on, not re-reading a million times * before * moving on.
 >They make their opinions, then go back and re-read the books, pulling out
 >what supports R/Hr, and convince themselves that Is The Way It Is.
 >The idea is - there has been subtle H/H overtures for a long time. But you
 >only catch them when you *really* look. Now, obviously, there will be a
 >bunch of people yelling "no, no, I have thought it was R/Hr and I was
 >reading HP before it was cool!" or "I am a H/H shipper, and I just started
 >reading them." I know. It's just a theory. I'm certain there is an 
exception
 >to that rule.

Capitan Kathy wrote:
<I realize this is just a theory, but I must whole-heartedly disagree with 
this
interpretation of the Good Ship R/H, at least.  (I obviously cannot speak 
for
anyone on the SS H/H.)  I, for one, have read each book multiple times and
analyzed and re-analyzed them just as closely as any H/H-er, and I know this
to be true of many of the others aboard my ship as well.  As I said, I know
you were just throwing this out as a theory and I am not trying to flame you
or anything, but I had to respond because, quite frankly, I am really tired 
of
the insinuation that R/H-ers are somehow not reading the books with same
heightened perception and advanced reasoning as H/H-ers.  True, many younger
fans are R/H, perhaps because it is "the more obvious interpretation", as
H/H-ers might say.  Personally, I see just as many young fans who are H/H
because of the whole Hero-Gets-the-Girl thing, which is a less well-reasoned
position as well.>

I am not saying that R/Hers don't read the books with the "heightened 
perception and advanced reasoning as H/H-ers". At all. God, you must have * 
really * been pissed at the 'cool kid' analogy. I am a R/Hr shipper. All the 
way. I have read all four books countless times. What my half-assed theory 
was saying is thus: I think that H/Hism is born out of lack of anyting else. 
Before GoF, we don't see any R/H at all, not even Ron unknowingly mooning 
after Hermione. People who had to deal with only the first books (and wanted 
romance, no offense to the inner-tubers out there) and go thorough them 
endlessly came to the H/H conclusion. Only looking at the pre-GoF books, I 
think that Harry is a likely option, since Ron is pretty much just a git to 
Hermione before then. They are set in their ways and won't change. 
*However*, R/Hers tend to be people who read them all straight through, one 
after the other. They have all the information and can make an educated 
guess, so to speak.

Now. I am not saying that is gospel truth. I am saying that it is an 
observation that I made. Yes, the D/H, R/H (other one), No-Shippers, etc., 
are all exceptions to this observation. I'm sure there were R/H shippers 
from the beginning, yada, yada, yada. Just an idea.

MC, aka Ginny Love, who is a R/H shipper, wheather her fellow shipmates like 
it or not. Grrrr....
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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 06:37:05 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 06:37:05 -0000
Subject: SHIP/FF: Stereotypes
In-Reply-To: <986rn8+1mdu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9879ah+au53@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13874

Cassie wrote:

> Well, since I'm a Draco/Harry and/or Hermione/Draco shipper 
primarily 
> (I can't choose between my favorites) and an H/H shipper 
secondarily, 
> what does that make me? <g>

You may NOT do that.  I just finished DS 13 and it got me all thrilled 
about D/G!  Stop toying with us!

I quit.  I'm going to shave my head, retire to a whitewashed cell, and 
dedicate my life to Minerva/Hedwig.  (Why not?  The owl is the goddess 
Minerva's animal, and hey, they're both Gryffindors.)

Amy Z

-------------------------------------
 "Yeah, Dumbledore's off his rocker, 
 all right," said Ron proudly. 
     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
--------------------------------------




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Mar  8 06:40:11 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 06:40:11 -0000
Subject: SHIP: couples 'lasting' in the HP world...
In-Reply-To: <008701c0a770$83c0cbc0$fe64d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9879gb+827g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13875

> > Kelley:
> > Actually, I can see JKR have some of the characters in 
relationships in books 5 and 6, and not necessarily keeping them 
together 'til the end of 7 and beyond.  Death would seem to be the 
most likely cause of a relationship ending, but yes, there are other 
ways this can happen, too.  What I would expect, however, is that -
whomever- she puts together as a couple by the end of 7, will stay 
together.
> 
> Carole:
> Again I ask, why?  Because that's the way we want it?   Even if JKR 
ended it H/H I wouldn't presume to *know* definitvely what happens 
post book #7.
> There's just no way. <<<<<<<<<<<

No, not because that's the way we want it; what I mean is, that I 
expect JKR to hint (or even say straight out, who knows?) if any 
characters are going to be together romantically after Hogwarts and 
the Voldy war ends.  Just for the sense of closure for the reader.  
It wouldn't seem likely, to me anyway, that JKR will say "Ron and 
Herm did date for a while, but it didn't work out, then she and Harry 
got together and got married..." or whatever.  From the sense I get 
of JKR's work from the first four books, I expect her to not do too 
much juggling with 'who ends up with whom'.  (I absolutely concede 
that she may shake things up in the romantic arena, I just don't 
~expect~ it.)  And, because, after JKR finishes #7, and if there will 
not be any books to follow, then how she has the characters end up at 
the end of 7 will be how they end up.  How can it be otherwise, 
except in our imaginations?

> > Kelley:
> Divorce
> > hasn't been introduced in the series yet, and the only abandonment
> > we've seen is Vold's father and Hagrid's mother.  Since we haven't
> > met her yet, who can say what she'll be like.  Other married 
couples seem to have been together for quite some time, with no 
impending signs of a breakup.
> 
> Carole:
> Yeah, but how many wizarding couple have we met for goodness sake?  
Malfoys, Weasleys, ummmmm....and how many are there in the wizarding 
world?  Come on use your imagination.  Why wouldn't there be romantic 
break ups and divorces?  Not everyone has the *inner eye* as 
Trelawney likes to say. <<<<<<<<<<<

LOL, well, Carole, sure I can imagine ~anything~, but in the HP 
universe, JKR is God, so I can think anything I want, but I'm 
following her story, you know? ;o)
 
> Carole:
> to quote JKR:  .  "Let no one say my books lack realism."

Agree, she has done an admirable job of creating a world that seems 
so real to so many.  Though at the same time, she's not brought up 
divorce in the HP world, so she is being selective, so far, about 
what realities are in the books. 

> > Kelley:
> >So, to me, if JKR really doesn't want to return
> > to HP, I would think that the couples, if any, at the end, will be
> > intended to give us the impression that their 
relationships/marriages will be lasting.
> 
> Carole:
> Why limit her or the story like that?
 
Well, those are just personal differences in how people approach a 
story.  I would like to see her return to the HP world at some point, 
but I don't want to get my hopes up that she will.  Just because I 
expect her to give the impression that some characters get married, 
work for the Ministry, work at Hogwarts, etc., doesn't mean that she 
will.  But, really, you don't think she'll do something like that?

> > Kelley:
> > I know about JKR pulling the rug out and all that, but this 
usually seems to happen within the main storyline of a single book, 
e.g. the 'bad guy' isn't who we all expected it to be, etc.  It seems 
if JKR tries to do this with romantic couples, while that might be 
fun for her to write, it might seem too out-of-the-blue and 
unsatisfying to the story as a whole.
> > IOW, if she's been leading us one way through half the series now,
> > and maybe even more once we get 5, then to suddenly change the
> > couples around might diminish the story's integrity.
>
> Carole: 
> And why would having matters of the heart complicate various plots 
about good vs evil diminish the integrity of the story?  Has she done 
that yet?

Oh, I don't think matters of the heart complicating the good vs. evil 
plot will diminish the story's integrity, what I was referring to was 
leading us to think 'these two like each other' let it seem to grow 
more and more serious, then in the last chapter pull a switcheroo and 
have them wind up with completely different people.  At this point 
(end of #7), there won't be any more opportunity to flesh out 
the 'new' relationships, and to me, it would be unsatisfying.  For 
her to pull that kind of last minute surprise would seem to diminish 
the story's integrity, if for no other reason than that it would 
wreck closure for lots of readers.  Sort of like Jo ending up with 
the Professor instead of Laurie thing.  Some people were fine with 
it, some were thunderstruck.  If JKR does the last minute switch, 
I'll be in the thunderstruck category.

> Carole:
> Can't we trust her to surprise us?

Certainly.  I just hope that it seems genuine, whatever she does.  
I'd hate for the ending to just utterly disappoint me, as I love the 
books so.  (Not that I think I'll be disappointed at all.)

> > Kelley:
> > I've written enough for now, and if my thoughts are unclear, which
> > would be likely, let me know.  I'll try again.
> 
> Carole:
> Maybe I'm just misinterpreting and I do not intend to sound at all 
snippy. <<<<

Not a bit. :o)

> Carole>  I'm just honestly curious.

I'm that way, too.  I couldn't even begin to list the things that 
people on this list have given me new perspectives on.  Let me know 
if this post doesn't help any. ;oD

Kelley





From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 06:36:39 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:36:39 -0800
Subject: movie trailer
References: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BE88@MAILSRV> <00bf01c0a71f$6e358580$5614a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <028101c0a7a3$0c090740$45e01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 13876

I love that trailer and am counting the days till the movie comes out.
Is there a site where you can download the trailer? The site I use to
watch it, won't let me do it. It opens in its own little window within
the site and not as I'm used to in a separate one.

Rena

> listening to HA a few hundred times.  Revenge is sweet, though. My
son
> commented the other day, "Geez, mom, how many times are you going to
play
> that thing?"
>
> Just wait until the movie is out on video!!! hee hee
> Doreen



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From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar  8 08:06:18 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:06:18 -0000
Subject: SHIP/FF: Stereotypes
In-Reply-To: <9879ah+au53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <987ehq+touv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13877

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Cassie wrote:
> 
> > Well, since I'm a Draco/Harry and/or Hermione/Draco shipper 
> primarily  (I can't choose between my favorites) and an H/H shipper 
> secondarily,  what does that make me? <g>
> 
> You may NOT do that.  I just finished DS 13 and it got me all 
thrilled   about D/G!  Stop toying with us!

-----------
LOL! Hey, one doesn't have to write one's ship; in fact, it's good 
excercise to write outside it. Penny and Carole write H/G even though 
they don't like it; Heidi writes D/H even though H/H and D/Ha are her 
primary ships. Everyone on PoU's all wound about the "R/H trend" in 
DS, and we all know how I feel about R/H. Rest assured my ship 
preference will not affect Draco and Ginny's future schnooglies.

:)

Cassie




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  8 08:22:30 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:22:30 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Music composers & directors & actors
References: <986j9r+6m7g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003901c0a7a8$ec227780$1714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13878


I thought I read somewhere that he wanted Haley Joel Osment for Harry
and wouldn't direct otherwise.  Sounds like we came out ahead on both
points.  I have nothing against HJO, never having seen him in
anything, but I'm thrilled about DR from the little I've seen of him.
 And you don't want to get me started on the topic of Spielberg; how
many shots of people gazing openmouthed at things can you take?  I got
sick of it way back at Close Encounters...all in all, Spielberg is one
of those very frustrating artists to me, someone whose talent is great
but who puts it in the service of a shallow vision (no, I'm not
including Schindler, which I haven't seen).  Unlike JKR!

Amy Z

Yes, that is what I read too... I just couldnt remember anything except he
was the first one they asked and he turned it down etc.

HJO was good in what he did ... I saw Sixth Sense and liked it. But as Harry
... no... no... no...  He doesnt LOOK at all like Harry as, IMHO, I am
fairly certain most of us have him pictured. DR comes much much closer, even
with his too-tidy-hair.

While we are on the subject of actors, I am so glad that they are all
British actors, for a very selfish reason. *smile* The only one that I have
seen in other movies is Richard Harris. It will be SO Harry Potter real for
me ... I won't have to do any un-thinking like I would have if say, (God
forbid) Robin Williams had been one of the Professors ... or if John Goodman
played Hagrid NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

So I am very happy with JKR's all British cast. Come on November ... I can
NOT believe I just said that ... while all of Iowa is so sick of winter and
waiting anxiously for spring ...

Doreen... counting.....




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 08:39:39 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 00:39:39 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Music composers & directors & actors
References: <986j9r+6m7g@eGroups.com> <003901c0a7a8$ec227780$1714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <02db01c0a7ab$516825c0$45e01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 13879

> I thought I read somewhere that he wanted Haley Joel Osment for
Harry
> and wouldn't direct otherwise.  Sounds like we came out ahead on
both

I've seen him in "the sixth sense" and while he did a good job there,
I cannot picture him as Harry. I think they got a perfect match in DR
as they did with the actors for Herminoe and Ron.

Rena



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From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  8 09:27:08 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 03:27:08 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] movie trailer
References: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BE88@MAILSRV> <00bf01c0a71f$6e358580$5614a3d1@doreen> <028101c0a7a3$0c090740$45e01b3f@rena>
Message-ID: <019101c0a7b1$f4885800$1714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13880

I love that trailer and am counting the days till the movie comes out.
Is there a site where you can download the trailer? The site I use to
watch it, won't let me do it. It opens in its own little window within
the site and not as I'm used to in a separate one.
Rena

I copied this for you from HPforGrownups in yahoogroups. You can go there
and click on "message" and type in a key word and find almost any HP related
item.
Doreen

From:  <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Date:  Mon Mar 5, 2001 7:53am
Subject:  New file uploaded to HPforGrownups

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups
group.

  File        : /Movie Trailer/trailer1_01mar.rm
  Uploaded by : snapeman at s...
  Description : Here is the whole movie trailer

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Movie20Trailer/trailer1_01
mar\.rm

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

snapeman at s...








From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 09:30:40 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (~*Vicki Granger*~)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:30:40 +1100
Subject: Trailer Download
Message-ID: <F115fYIu5vC8UO0ryOn0000291e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13881

Trailer Available From - http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/

At least it was last time I tried :)

========

~*Vicki Granger*~
FanFiction.Net Author
Hermione Granger in Harry_Potter_RPG2
113% Obsessed with Harry Potter
~*~MeMbEr Of EvIl ClUb~*~
:>(*)<: Reserve Seeker :>(*)<:
Proud Ravenclaw
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From dmjil at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 10:29:38 2001
From: dmjil at hotmail.com (dmjil at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 10:29:38 -0000
Subject: Gvia HaEsh (hebrew GOF)
Message-ID: <987mui+oima@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13882

The hebrew verion of the GOF will be available on April 1st (itsn't
a joke)
One may already order it at
http://www.francophones.org.il/mitos/hp4.htm

MdA




From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Mar  8 12:15:14 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 07:15:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lack of Wizard Sport...
References: <9870mn+kld8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002601c0a7c9$6f0c0e20$02421e3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 13883

I personally imagine that the Americans have come up with a full-contact version of Quidditch that needs no bludgers.

ender
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 11:09 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lack of Wizard Sport...

  Quidditch is comparable to Muggle Soccer (Football), and don't get me 
  wrong I LOVE Soccer, but it would get awfully boring if it were the 
  only sport. So do you think there are other sports we don't know of 
  yet, or is Quidditch it? Do you think that the kids ever play a good 
  ol' game of Rugby? 

  Scott


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From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 13:01:17 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:01:17 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Responses to Firoza (and Cassie) on R/H and Such...
In-Reply-To: <986kbm+9jpl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <987vqt+okum@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13884

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:
> Zipping up the wetsuit again...
> 

<snip>
> Subtext... uh, something I can sink my teeth into.  I live on Subtext 
> Island--grad school is corrupting me to the point where I can't read 
> a novel without trying to get into the author's head, analyzing the 
> historical and cultural context, and examining the intersecting 
> traditions/genres/philosophies within which the author is writing.  :-
> )
> 
> I've talked to a lot of people in online fandom, of all ages and ship 
> preferences, including no-shippers.  The trend that I've personally  
> noticed is that R/H fans mention GoF to support their position.  
> Which makes sense--after not reading books 1-3 for a couple of months 
> and going into GoF cold on July 8, I saw the R/H position as well.  
> 
> The only way I can explain why I'm H/H (and I'm asked all the time) 
> is to use the entire canon we have thus far, and read it as a 
> singular narrative.
> 
> GoF is not a standalone book.  It's the fourth part in a seventh 
> volume series.  It can't be read most effectively in isolation any 
> more than Wilder's "Farmer Boy" or Tolkien's "The Return of the King" 
> can.  Serial novels of this nature are actually one continuous 
> narrative in multiple parts.
> 
> The most intriguing thing in any potential romance subplot is this:  
> JKR has held back from spelling out Hermione's feelings.  I've read 
> *a lot* of serial fiction in which an author follows a remarkable 
> character and their friends from youth to maturity... and I've rarely 
> seen so much smoke and mirrors when it came to developing 
> attractions.  
> 
> It would have been infinitely easy for Jo Rowling to indicate 
> Hermione's feelings clearly, if they were indeed for Ron.  After all, 
> there isn't much room for a fully developed, tangential romantic plot 
> in her storyline... any pairings would have to tie directly into one 
> of several non-romantic storylines.  
> 
> If Ron likes Hermione, and vice versa, and this is what our beloved 
> author intended for her series, GoF would have been a good place to 
> show both characters making tentative steps towards one another... 
> nothing ambiguous.  If romance was not going to play a major role in 
> the main storylines of the later books (as some of my no-ship buddies 
> posit), or if Jo Rowling had a consistent R/H-during-canon pairing in 
> mind... GoF would have read quite differently.
> 
> I believe that Rowling is "cloaking" Hermione's feelings for a 
> reason.  If I'm correct, it wouldn't be the first time in which 
> Hermione was hiding something that was integral to the main plot.  
> Remember the Time-Turner?
> 
> If I could ask JKR one question before the fifth installment comes 
> out next year, I'd ask her this:  "Are you a fan of Louisa May 
> Alcott?"  Her answer would tell me a lot.
> 
> All writer know that plot=conflict.  If plot=the obvious or 
> plot=peace, "we could have all stayed at home".  The best writers 
> raises the stakes whenever they can, add dramatic tension here and 
> there, are masters of subtlety and misdirection, and leave their 
> readers hanging from scene to sequel.
> 
> Yet writers also have to deliver on the promises that they make.  If 
> JKR is throwing up smoke and mirrors around potential R/H, and it's 
> really all "much ado about nothing--Hermione really likes Ron", 
> there's a contingent of close readers who will always remain 
> unconvinced about that aspect of her story.  To set the table for 
> your invited dinner guests and then not serve a well-anticipated meal 
> is considered Very Bad Manners... and the analogy to fiction writing 
> is obvious.

As I understatnd it, you're maintaining that Hermione's feelings are a mystery (that is, we 
don't know how she's feeling towards Ron, or Harry). At the same time you claim that if 
Hermione ends up with Ron, JKR will have somehow disappointed some of her loyal fans, and, 
again if I understand correctly, the disappointment would be because that romance is too 
expected? How can it be expected if, according to your point of view, Hermione's feelings 
for Ron are unknown? You say that an interesting plot should not be obvious. Is R/H obvious 
then? And doesn't this admission seriously undermine the H/H position which does claim to 
see MORE textual evidence to Hermione liking Harry than to Hermione liking Ron? 

 
<a lot snipped>

> Cassie again:
> "And if this isn't a subtextual interpretation of the kiss, I don't 
> know what is. So Hermione having kissed Harry proves she doesn't like 
> him, because if she did like him, she'd be far too paralyzed with 
> fear to even go near him? Instead, she would probably just have 
> fainted at his feet. Or perhaps she would have glared at him, since 
> her repeated glaring at Ron seems to be interpreted as a sign of deep 
> affection by R/Hers."
> 
> OMG!  I haven't laughed so hard while reading a post in AGES!   You 
> see, Cassie's expressing the confusion of every H/Her I've ever 
> spoken to.  I know I think the *same thing* whenever the ship debate 
> rolls around.  I identify strongly with Hermione, I put myself in her 
> shoes... and the "I glare at him because I like him" argument is 
> unconvincing to me.  The first thing I think to myself is, "well, 
> Hermione glares at Draco as well, doesn't she?  So following your 
> rhetoric, this means that she likes Ron, and Draco, and everyone 
> who "gets under her skin"."  

Oh, but thats not fair! I claim a foul <g>. You know its not fair. Draco is Hermione's enemy 
and her glares at him do not call for any special attention. But Ron? He is one of her best 
friends, she obviously cares about him very much (as a friend), and it is in *this* context 
that the antagonism he so easily awakens in her seems indicative of underlying feelings 
Hermione has for him. 


> 
> On the other hand, who else has Hermione shown clear evidence of 
> being somewhat attracted to in canon?  She *was* attracted to 
> Lockheart (twelve year old girl's crush on a teacher--even Ron admits 
> to it)--how did she react while she was around him?  She may not have 
> been swept off her feet by Krum, but she liked him enough to go to 
> the Yule Ball with him--did she glare at him all the time, too?  Or 
> initially?

'Like' is not the same as 'attract'. It is quite obvious (to me) that she is not *at all* 
attracted to Krum. The "beetle in your hair scene" makes that abundantly clear, I believe. 
As for Lockhart, believe me, if I met a guy I had an impossible crush on I wouldn't glare at 
him either. I would be too busy blushing. Its to do with familiarity, of course.

 
Naama




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 13:50:05 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:50:05 -0000
Subject: SHIP: not so long response (was Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR)
In-Reply-To: <002501c0a70c$33a0db80$e579d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9882md+vlmb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13885

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Carole Estes" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <firoza10 at y...>
> 
> I'm leaving most of this post alone in that the R/H'ers and the H/H'ers
> obviously disagree in the interpretation of various passages of the books
> and interviews.  My one commmnet is that H/H is not just wishful thinking on
> our part any more than R/H is wishful thinking on your part.  JKR could go
> either or no way on this issue.
> 
> I do however take issue with this statement:
> 
> you wrote:
> 
>  R/H is the way JKR is headed IMO, and since none of us REALLY
> believe that the canon HP is a soap opera (as much as we enjoy HP
> fanfics of this genre ;-)), it serves no purpose for JKR to build up
> R/H and then switch to H/H post-Hogwarts, as some H/H fans believe
> will happen.
> 
> My comment:
> 
> Why not? There are loads of reasons why she might do R/H and then tear them
> assunder...come on use your imagination and think of the great dramatic and
> not necessarily soapish dramatic potential there.  Including but not limited
> to exploring feelings of loss and betrayal and individuals deciding to do
> what is good for them vs. what is good for the wizard community as a whole.
> We can't possibly know what JKR has up her sleeve as far as relationships
> and their repercussions.   I see no reason for your confidence that while
> OBHWF (one big happy weasley family) might happen, why it necessarily will
> be preserved.
> 
> Your comment:
> Teenagers in real life may not form attachments as
> teenagers that last into adulthood, but HP is NOT the real world, so
> R/H lasting into adulthood is a real possibility <g>. But despair not
> H/H fans, there are always fanfics :-)!
> 
> my comment:
> Yes it is a possibility but so is H/H. And I'd say the chances of either or
> neither are equal.
> 
> you comment:
> Nor do we think that R/H or H/G when they eventually
> DO get together will break up and not last. That is not in keeping
> with the tone of the HP books, however 'unrealistic' that may be and
> despite all the fanfics out there <vbg>.
> 
> 
> My comment:
> Again Why not? Could you predict the tone of GoF from the previous books.
> There are still 3 massive books out there to be written.  I think you give
> wayb too little credit to JKR's imagination.  No, romance is not the prime
> theme of these books, but I think it will play a role if even a rather minor
> one.  But since there is just the beginnings of evidence for these
> relationships to happen at all, how can you predict that once these
> relationships (that you are so sure of) form they will last forever?
> 

Very simply - Because thats the sense I get from the books. 
The main point I disagree with is this: "We can't possibly know what JKR has up her sleeve 
as far as relationships and their repercussions." 
If that were true, why do you participate in shipping debates? It would be like arguing on 
which side a spinning coin is about to fall. We obviously can't know *for sure* but we do 
discuss trends, likelihoods, probablities, right? And yes, we can make educated guesses as 
to what *will* happen based on what *has* happened. Its called inductive logic. And based on 
what I *have* read of JKR's work I have to say that her characters are EXTREMELY stable. 
That is, except for characters like Moody, Quirrel and Snape (of PS) who are more plot 
devices serving the local mystery plot. 
So, based on this impression of the HP-verse I'll say, yeah, it does not make *HP* sense to 
have the kind of romantic twists you envision. 
Just to clarify - JKR can do what she wants. She can have them all shave their heads and 
become Hara Krishna monks. The point is not that everything can happen, the point is what is 
most likely to happen.

I'm sorry if I sound a little abrupt, but it seems to me that arguing that anything can 
happen, that in three books JKR can change everything, is really no argument at all. You 
CANNOT argue unless you base your arguments on what is already known. 

Naama





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 14:20:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:20:30 -0000
Subject: SHIP: H/H Mission Statement - FF: DS - Sport
In-Reply-To: <3AA6FE30.2B00EA2B@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9884fe+47tp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13886

Penny wrote:

>Not only that, but we've been accused of being "too vocal," "overly
>vehement," and "intimidating."  

*Sigh*  Not by me.  The people accusing H/Hers of being too vocal 
aren't necessarily the same people who are asking for more specifics. 
 I know we all blur together here online; I'm the one with the red 
hair, the neverending supply of sigs, and the "I Brake for Werewolves" 
bumper sticker.

>How can we be all those things and still
>unclear about our position(s)? 

Well, it IS possible to be overly vocal, vehement and intimidating 
without ever actually making the merits of one's point clear. 
<g> However, I haven't noticed you doing that, Penny--you or any other 
H/Hers that spring to mind.

>That is: Harry has
>everything (fame, wealth) so Ron should "get the girl."

Urgh.  I refuse to be tarred with this one.  MY argument is that once 
reason I DON'T like H/H is that I DON'T want to see "the hero gets the 
girl."  I wouldn't turn it around to say the above at all.  Nor does 
it have to do with Harry's fame and wealth; I'd rather be Ron than 
Harry any day.  For me, it's an objection to a cliche; Harry's the one 
we spend all our time with as readers, so naturally if there's an 
interesting girl around he has to end up with her . . . that's what I 
don't want to see.  (I was SO happy when Cho turned him down, not 
because I don't want to see that romance happen but because I wanted a 
monkey wrench thrown into Harry's plans...again, it's not that Harry 
has it so good, but that as Hagrid says, everything happens to him.  
The non-date was a nice change from that.)

Having said all that, I will once again repeat my litany (with rosary, 
on knees) that Our Goddess Jo will manage to avoid cliches even if 
Harry and Hermione jump onto a white horse and ride into the sunset.  
Anything CAN turn into a cliche (HGTG, OBHWF, even 
funny-#2-character-gets-the-girl due to all those bantering couples 
movies).  Jo won't let it, will you, Jo?

I like the Ron-unwittingly-betrays-Harry plotline too.  It would be 
very exciting. 

And I don't think that the way the characters are at the end of canon 
is the way they're going to stay, pairings-wise or otherwise.  The 
books end where they end; closure doesn't require that we know the 
rest of their life story.  And they'll only be 18!!

Cassie wrote:

>Everyone on PoU's all wound about the "R/H trend" in 
>DS, and we all know how I feel about R/H.

???  POUers think DS is too R/H?  Are they just all totally paranoid 
H/Hers, or what?  (Don't answer that.)  Come on, Hermione and Harry 
belong to each other, heart and soul...I'll eat my broomstick if DS 
goes otherwise (slipping a fifty to Cassie).

Scott wrote:

>Do you think that the kids ever play a good
>ol' game of Rugby?

I doubt Quidditch is the only sport; it's a compression thing 
again; JKR can only tell us so much about the wizarding world so she 
picks some key examples.  But I do buy the idea that it's THE sport, 
the way in many places soccer or basketball or whatever is the great 
passion and other sports get much less attention.

Since so much in the wizarding world has a real sense of antiquity 
about it, modern sports like baseball and basketball haven't caught on 
or been adapted into magic-enhanced forms.  I don't know how long 
rugby's been around.  But things like racing seem more likely, since 
they're so ancient.  And martial arts, sadly.

Amy Z
who'd be happy to accompany Dean to a plain old, boring West Ham 
United match--or come on over and watch the Revolution with us, Dean!

---------------------------------------------
 "Before we begin our banquet, I would like 
 to say a few words.  And here they are: 
 Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
            --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 14:32:19 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:32:19 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Glaring
In-Reply-To: <987vqt+okum@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98855j+t216@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13887

Ebony wrote:

> >  I identify strongly with Hermione, I put myself in 
her 
> > shoes... and the "I glare at him because I like him" argument is 
> > unconvincing to me.  The first thing I think to myself is, "well, 
> > Hermione glares at Draco as well, doesn't she?  So following your 
> > rhetoric, this means that she likes Ron, and Draco, and everyone 
> > who "gets under her skin"."  
> 

Naama wrote:

> Oh, but thats not fair! I claim a foul <g>. You know its not fair. 
Draco is Hermione's enemy 
> and her glares at him do not call for any special attention. But 
Ron? He is one of her best 
> friends, she obviously cares about him very much (as a friend), and 
it is in *this* context 
> that the antagonism he so easily awakens in her seems indicative of 
underlying feelings 
> Hermione has for him. 

Well said, Naama, and also, it's not glaring per se but the immediate 
context thereof.  Glaring at Draco when he's said something cutting 
just means "Draco, you're an A-1 jerk."  Scowling when Ron has just 
given Fleur a compliment is a different matter.  

Foul! Foul!  Show 'er the red card, ref!  (Or at least the 
yellow...Ebony, you get off with a warning.)

Amy Z 

----------------------------------------------------
   "See, there was this wizard who went . . . bad.  
 As bad as you could go.  Worse.  Worse than worse.  
 His name was . . ."
   Hagrid gulped, but no words came out.
   "Could you write it down?" Harry suggested.
   "Nah--can't spell it."
                  -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
----------------------------------------------------




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  8 14:41:00 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:41:00 -0600
Subject: SHIP: How Shippers Come to Be -- Take Responses to OT-Chatter unless ...
References: <200103080616.f286GU612912@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <3AA799FC.4B2B5D6D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13888

Hi --

Kathleen Kelly MacMillan wrote:

> As long as we're analyzing ship preferences, I would be interested to
> see how many other vocal shippers have jumped from one major ship to
> another at some point.  I have admitted, reluctantly, that I once was
> half-heartedly H/H (Hey! Admitting is the first step to healing!).
> Ebony has said the reverse, as she went from half-hearted R/H to
> out-and-out H/H.  What about other people?

Just keep in mind everyone that your *responses* to this question should
be taken to the OT-Chatter group *unless* you include it in a post that
either discusses some other substantive HP topic or discusses shipping
supported by examples from canon.  Any sort of "roll call" response is
required to be in OT-Chatter, starting next week.

When asking folks for this sort of response, it's a good idea for the
requesting party to also make that clear.  We don't want to be bombarded
on the main group with short little posts detailing who has jumped ships
or which ship they are currently on.

Thanks,

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar  8 14:48:25 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:48:25 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Glaring
In-Reply-To: <98855j+t216@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98863p+9fus@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13889

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Ebony wrote:
> 
> > >  I identify strongly with Hermione, I put myself in 
> her 
> > > shoes... and the "I glare at him because I like him" argument 
is 
> > > unconvincing to me.  The first thing I think to myself 
is, "well, 
> > > Hermione glares at Draco as well, doesn't she?  So following 
your 
> > > rhetoric, this means that she likes Ron, and Draco, and 
everyone 
> > > who "gets under her skin"."  
> > 
> 
> Naama wrote:
> 
> > Oh, but thats not fair! I claim a foul <g>. You know its not 
fair. 
> Draco is Hermione's enemy 
> > and her glares at him do not call for any special attention. But 
> Ron? He is one of her best 
> > friends, she obviously cares about him very much (as a friend), 
and 
> it is in *this* context 
> > that the antagonism he so easily awakens in her seems indicative 
of 
> underlying feelings 
> > Hermione has for him. 
> 
> Well said, Naama, and also, it's not glaring per se but the 
immediate 
> context thereof.  Glaring at Draco when he's said something cutting 
> just means "Draco, you're an A-1 jerk."  Scowling when Ron has just 
> given Fleur a compliment is a different matter.  
> 
> Foul! Foul!  Show 'er the red card, ref!  (Or at least the 
> yellow...Ebony, you get off with a warning.)


And here, I cry "Foul!" Honestly, Hermione's glares at Draco could 
mean at least 4 different things:
1. You're a bigoted git and I wish you'd go away.
2. Why do you act like a bigoted git in public when I know that you 
don't act that way when other Slytherins aren't around.
3. You really hate ron, don't you? Did he mess up your fingerpainting 
at Wizarding Nursery School?
or 4. How can someone so completely cute and sexy be such a bigoted 
git?

I'm sure others can come up with other explanations. Cass?


I don't think that many R/Herm people, Yael excepted, have read 
my "what else happened during books 3 & 4 and beyond" fanfic, A 
Surfeit of Curses, which is at http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?
action=story-read&storyid=96654 and in the HP_Paradise group at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise - it was inspired, in part, 
by comments by R/Herm shippers that Ron and Hermione are meant for 
each other because of the volatility in their relationsip, and 
certain snips of dialogue, and a subsequent statement by another 
listie (this was all in October, so forgive me if I forget who said 
what!) that if Hermione's irritation towards Ron was a sign of 
crush/lust/romance, then imagine that her irritation towards Draco is 
a sign of...

To add to Penny's earlier request, I'm interested in getting a Roll 
Call of people who are R/Herm and people who are Ha/Herm who think 
that under certain circumstances, Draco may not be irredeemable - but 
please do the roll call on the HP4GU-OT list.

One thing I've observed, which I know has been discussed here before, 
is just how little we know and see about Hermione or Draco (or Ron, 
for that matter) when Harry isn't around. I know canon is a harry-
centric story AND that we don't see much of the day to day life OR 
conversations (each book would be over 4000 pages!), which creates a 
wide open space where all the shippers can sail our wonderful boats.

And this has led me to wonder if the R/Herm shippers are more prone 
to the Draco Is Irredemable sentiment than the Ha/Herm shippers. 




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  8 14:51:01 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:51:01 -0600
Subject: SHIP: How Shippers Come to Be
References: <F179IZS2TRqf69aZbLA0000218d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AA79C55.FE747CAF@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13890

Hi --

Morsus Crustum wrote:

> What my half-assed theory was saying is thus: I think that H/Hism is
> born out of lack of anyting else. Before GoF, we don't see any R/H at
> all, not even Ron unknowingly mooning after Hermione. People who had
> to deal with only the first books (and wanted romance, no offense to
> the inner-tubers out there) and go thorough them endlessly came to the
> H/H conclusion.

Actually, I (yes, me, Captain of the H/H Cruiseliner) would disagree
here.  I saw evidence of Ron liking Hermione as early as CoS.  He
overcame his fear of spiders enough to go chasing after Aragog -- why?
Because he looked over at Hermione's empty seat & stiffened his
resolve.  He seemed very affected when she was petrified.  He cursed
Malfoy & ate slugs because Malfoy insulted Hermione (granted Harry had
no idea it *was* an insult).  His first question when returning from the
Chamber and learning that the petrified students were being revived was,
"So, Hermione's okay, then?"

PoA -- similar trends continue.  I won't detail them as I typed far too
much yesterday & my wrists are killing me this morning.

But, there's plenty of evidence of Ron's growing feelings -- starting
with CoS.

I was never R/H really, because I didn't (and don't) see any evidence of
Hermione returning his feelings for certain.  I also don't buy into the
"sparks = romance" thing either.  I was picking up on clues that
Hermione has her cap set on Harry beginning with PoA.  So, FITD,
although not labelled as such & not really clearly formulated, was
beginning to gel for me with PoA.  I read 1-3 in rapid succession last
January.  And, of course, had to re-read them countless times waiting
for GoF.  But, I think it would be incorrect to say that everyone who
read the books pre-GoF was forced into the H/H camp by default for lack
of evidence of a possibility of R/H.  Ron's been on a path toward liking
Hermione since CoS.  But, Ebony's right IMO: I think JKR has
purposefully cloaked Hermione's feelings from the get-go.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Thu Mar  8 14:57:13 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 8 Mar 2001 14:57:13 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <984063433.2983.53813.s5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13891


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Fan Fiction/Fanfic by Catlady/Snape02.htm 
  Uploaded by : catlady at wicca.net 
  Description : "BAD DREAMS: A Snape/Draco Romance" - Be warned that there is a little bit of torture at the beginning and the end. In between, there is m/m sex, m/f sex, mushiness, Muggle literary references, and *good* dreams about the fun in dysFUNction. 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Fan%20Fiction/Fanfic%20by%20Catlady/Snape02.htm 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

catlady at wicca.net
 







From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  8 15:08:36 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:08:36 -0600
Subject: SHIP: R/He compared to D/He
References: <987vqt+okum@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA7A074.796803D9@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13892

Hi --

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> As I understatnd it, you're maintaining that Hermione's feelings are a
> mystery (that is, we don't know how she's feeling towards Ron, or
> Harry). At the same time you claim that if Hermione ends up with Ron,
> JKR will have somehow disappointed some of her loyal fans, and, again
> if I understand correctly, the disappointment would be because that
> romance is too expected? How can it be expected if, according to your
> point of view, Hermione's feelings for Ron are unknown? You say that
> an interesting plot should not be obvious. Is R/H obvious then? And
> doesn't this admission seriously undermine the H/H position which does
> claim to
> see MORE textual evidence to Hermione liking Harry than to Hermione
> liking Ron?

I think (Ebony can correct me if I'm wrong) that Ebony is saying if
Hermione's feelings are not ambiguous & conflicted and in fact are for
Ron, that build-up of ambiguity & conflict will have been unwarranted
and "unfair."  If she was going to end up R/H *without any conflict,
soul-searching or problems*, then why cloak Hermione's feelings at all?
Why not make it as obvious that Hermione likes Ron (and leave off with
anything that could possibly be interpreted as Herm liking Harry)?  If
she put in subtext that could support Hermione liking Harry when she
never really intended to act on that or make anything of it *at all,*
then it's just disingenous.

I'm pretty sure that Ebony agrees with me that JKR is in fact setting up
a conflict within the Threesome: FITD.  If she is not and she's going to
open up Book 5 with Hermione declaring her love for Ron, then all the He
likes Ha subtext in the previous 4 books becomes problematic.  JKR will
have essentially been dishonest with some segment of her readers if she
doesn't set up some sort of conflict.  It can still *end up* being R/H
and not be a problem.  But, if it just segues right into R/H with no
conflict on Hermione's part, then JKR will (IMO) have been guilty of
unnecessarily raising the stakes so to speak.

> Ebony: OMG!  I haven't laughed so hard while reading a post in AGES!
> You see, Cassie's expressing the confusion of every H/Her I've ever
> > spoken to.  I know I think the *same thing* whenever the ship debate
>
> > rolls around.  I identify strongly with Hermione, I put myself in
> her
> > shoes... and the "I glare at him because I like him" argument is
> > unconvincing to me.  The first thing I think to myself is, "well,
> > Hermione glares at Draco as well, doesn't she?  So following your
> > rhetoric, this means that she likes Ron, and Draco, and everyone
> > who "gets under her skin"."
>
> Oh, but thats not fair! I claim a foul <g>. You know its not fair.
> Draco is Hermione's enemy and her glares at him do not call for any
> special attention. But Ron? He is one of her best friends, she
> obviously cares about him very much (as a friend), and it is in *this*
> context that the antagonism he so easily awakens in her seems
> indicative of underlying feelings Hermione has for him.

How is that a "foul"?  There are plenty of romantic comedies where the
two eventual romantic partners *hate* each other (are enemies) prior to
falling madly in love.  If you subscribe to the R/H theory on the
grounds that sparks = passion (in the fine tradition of romantic
comedies), it hardly seems unfair that you consider the D/He possibility
on the same grounds.  That is decidedly *not* unfair at all.  It's a
very appropriate and logical conclusion.

Of course, I have absolutely no understanding of this sort of
interaction being the basis for a lasting romantic relationship.  I had
lunch with a friend yesterday -- her husband's best friend is going
through marital woes.  Seems they are the classic "bickering, then
passion" couple who have bickered & fought their entire relationship
(since college).  They have now reached the point where they don't even
*like* being around one another & are only staying together "for the
kids."  Too bad my friend has never read HP at all ... since all I could
think was "Yep.  Classic R/H."  Just my opinion of course -- to each his
own.  But, I definitely don't understand it ... and it seems to me that
it is reasonably rare for the true "romantic comedy-esque bickering
couple" to actually have a solid relationship.


> Ebony: > On the other hand, who else has Hermione shown clear evidence
> of > being somewhat attracted to in canon?  She *was* attracted to
> > Lockheart (twelve year old girl's crush on a teacher--even Ron
> admits
> > to it)--how did she react while she was around him?  She may not
> have
> > been swept off her feet by Krum, but she liked him enough to go to
> > the Yule Ball with him--did she glare at him all the time, too?  Or
> > initially?
>
> 'Like' is not the same as 'attract'. It is quite obvious (to me) that
> she is not *at all* attracted to Krum. The "beetle in your hair scene"
> makes that abundantly clear, I believe.

Ah, yes.  The scene where she couldn't stop talking to Harry, cheering
for Harry.  That one?  <g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  8 15:16:01 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:16:01 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Announcements List is up & running (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AA7A230.4FABA75A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13893

Hi everyone --

Your Moderator Team has been hard at work, looking for ways to reduce
message volume and keep the main group friendly & organized.

We've set up another sister Yahoogroup -- the HP4GU - Announcements
list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

This list is intended for those who want to receive announcements about
HP news, book release dates, fanfic plugs by the author, notification of
new merchandise, as well as periodic summaries of what the main group
has been discussing (including those members who cannot cope with the
high posting rate on the main list).

Please note that we are requiring the types of announcements that you
see listed below be made *only* to the Announcements List.  This will
reduce message volume on the main group.  The only messages that will be
duplicated will be the ADMIN messages posted to the main group and
copied to the Announcements list.

To manage the volume on this list, it is a moderated group.  This means
that one of the Moderators on the Moderator Team must approve your
message before it gets sent out to the list.

The following announcements are permitted (not an exhaustive list -
please check with the Moderators if you are unsure about your message):

*** The HPforGrownUps Newsletter (edited by Jeralyn and Ebony)

*** ADMIN messages from the Moderator Team (copies of those posted to
the main group)

*** Announcements of chat room sessions

*** Announcements of new discussion summaries posted to the main list

*** Plugs of fanfiction (one plug per chapter by the author)

*** Plugs of HP-related events (including regional Members' meetings)

*** Plugs of new HP websites or of new HP information on other websites

*** News releases, with links (this should include things related to the
Warner Brothers' movie)

*** Fun HP links, such as Sorting Hat quizzes

*** Alerts to new HP merchandise

*** JKR sightings; JKR events (book signings, tours, TV appearances,
chats, etc.)

*** Information on HP fan clubs

Again, we encourage everyone to join this group as well.  The message
volume should remain relatively low & focused (because the Moderators
must approve each message, you can be assured that the subject heading
will be relevant!).

Please remember that beginning March 12th, fanfic plugs, merchandise
sightings, news links and the like need to be posted *only* to the
Announcements list.  This message will be repeated several times over
the next few weeks to be sure everyone is aware of the changes.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team









From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  8 15:16:55 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:16:55 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Spoilers for the JKR Schoolbooks (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AA7A267.EAD1436B@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13894

Hi everyone --

The Moderator Team has decided to require spoiler warnings & spoiler
space for discussion of the schoolbooks to be released next Monday
(March 12th).  These 2 books are: Quidditch Through the Ages and
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.

For those of you unfamiliar with spoiler warnings, etc. -- here's a
brief review.  Put something like the following as your subject heading:
Quidditch book (SPOILER WARNING).  Include a minimum of 15 lines of
spoiler space before typing your message.  If you are replying, be sure
to include spoiler space and put your reply *under* the part that you
are replying to (ensuring plenty of spoiler space).  Here's how it
should look:

After your greeting, type the following

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

This will allow anyone who inadvertently opens your message to avoid
seeing any text.

Again, this ADMIN message will be sent out daily through the end of next
week.  We are currently thinking that spoilers should stay in place
about 2 weeks from the release date of March 12th.  You will be notified
when spoilers are no longer required.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team








From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  8 15:14:46 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:14:46 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: OT messages to move to the OTChatter List (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AA7A1E6.50615E47@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13895

Hi everyone --

Starting with March 12th, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup. This is in order to make it easier to
sort through messages and reduce overall message volume on this list.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

You will need to join this list, but as with any yahoogroup, you may set
your subscription options to (a) individual emails, (b) digests or (c)
webview only.  There are about 60 or so members over there already, and
the message volume promises to be high.  So, if you might not care much
about OT posts or care only now & again, the webview option might be a
good choice.

On this OT-Chatter list, you may discuss anything unrelated to Harry
Potter (subject to the rule against inflammatory topics - see below),
and you should, in addition, discuss the following
HP-related things on this list rather than the main HPforGrownups list
(this is *not* an exhaustive list):

*** Fanfic recommendations (recommending/discussing a fanfic by someone
else - unless
it can be tied to canon)

*** Listings of HP merchandise collections

*** Answering a roll call (e.g. for the H/H Cruiseliner or the Good Ship
R/H)

*** Detailing your results on a HP Quiz or Sorting Hat test

*** Short, fun posts, such as 'Tom Swifties'

*** Shipper Debates not supported by examples from canon

*** Opinions on HP artwork, book covers and other paraphernalia

*** Definitions or explanations of British words, phrases and traditions
related to HP

***  Exchanges of cultural information between the Americans and the
Brits

*** Anything that you would preface with "This is slightly OT but ..."

We wish this area of the club to remain friendly and welcoming, so the
Moderators will step in if any thread appears to be veering in a
contentious direction.   Examples of prohibited subjects include
politics and The Holocaust.

This message will be resent every day for the next 2 weeks.  If you've
read it once, there will be no need to re-read it.  We just want to be
sure that everyone gets the message.  Don't be surprised if you get an
e-howler (or at least a friendly reminder) from one of the Moderators if

you violate the OT policy.

Thanks for listening (more ADMIN messages to come -- please continue to
read them as they are important).

Penny
The Moderator Team






From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  8 15:31:46 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:31:46 -0600
Subject: SHIP: RE: H/H Mission Statement - FF
References: <9884fe+47tp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA7A5E2.3622E43F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13896

Hi --

Amy Z wrote:

> Penny wrote:

> >How can we be all those things and still >unclear about our
> position(s)?
>
> Well, it IS possible to be overly vocal, vehement and intimidating
> without ever actually making the merits of one's point clear.
> <g> However, I haven't noticed you doing that, Penny--you or any other
>
> H/Hers that spring to mind.

Thanks!  I agree -- it *is* possible.  <g>

> >That is: Harry has
> >everything (fame, wealth) so Ron should "get the girl."
>
> Urgh.  I refuse to be tarred with this one.

That was Paula, not you.  I know I combined them into one post but I'm
pretty sure I wrote "Paula said:"

> MY argument is that once reason I DON'T like H/H is that I DON'T want
> to see "the hero gets the girl."

Even if the "girl" wants the Hero?

>  I wouldn't turn it around to say the above at all.  Nor does
> it have to do with Harry's fame and wealth; I'd rather be Ron than
> Harry any day.  For me, it's an objection to a cliche; Harry's the one
>
> we spend all our time with as readers, so naturally if there's an
> interesting girl around he has to end up with her . . . that's what I
> don't want to see.  <snip>

But, again: what about Hermione's thoughts & feelings?  Why does it
always have to be about Harry not getting everything he wants? He
doesn't even want her right now.  But, what if she wants him?  I still
object to Hermione sort of being viewed as a commodity that gets
rewarded to the Hero or the Sidekick.

> Having said all that, I will once again repeat my litany (with rosary,
>
> on knees) that Our Goddess Jo will manage to avoid cliches even if
> Harry and Hermione jump onto a white horse and ride into the sunset.
> Anything CAN turn into a cliche (HGTG, OBHWF, even
> funny-#2-character-gets-the-girl due to all those bantering couples
> movies).  Jo won't let it, will you, Jo?

I don't think she will.  I think it will be done well, regardless how it
turns out.  I hope!

> And I don't think that the way the characters are at the end of canon
> is the way they're going to stay, pairings-wise or otherwise.  The
> books end where they end; closure doesn't require that we know the
> rest of their life story.  And they'll only be 18!!

I don't forsee JKR writing any sort of epilogue that clues us in to
their future either.  And, I don't see how it will be possible to throw
in hints that settle it once & for all.  JKR could surprise us ... but
I'm guessing the end of the series will be rather open-ended as far as
their adult lives go.  She keeps saying that she hasn't ruled out
writing more HP at some later time.  If she means that, she won't box
herself into a corner with Book 7 IMO.

> ???  POUers think DS is too R/H?  Are they just all totally paranoid
> H/Hers, or what?  (Don't answer that.)  Come on, Hermione and Harry
> belong to each other, heart and soul...I'll eat my broomstick if DS
> goes otherwise (slipping a fifty to Cassie).

Not this PoUer.  I'm with Amy -- H/H it is!  (slipping another fifty to
Cassie under the table)

Penny
(who is signing off now and getting on with a productive day!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 15:59:39 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:59:39 -0000
Subject: SHIP: RE: H/H Mission Statement - FF
In-Reply-To: <3AA7A5E2.3622E43F@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <988a9b+s8kn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13897

I wrote:

> > MY argument is that [one] reason I DON'T like H/H is that I DON'T 
want
> > to see "the hero gets the girl."

Penny wrote:
 
> Even if the "girl" wants the Hero?

Yes!  Yes, yes, yes!  Precisely.  ESPECIALLY.  

Let's forget for a moment that we are talking about real people with 
real feelings and opinions about how their lives should go, and let's 
pretend that Hermione, Ron, and Harry are simply inventions of a 
fiction writer.  Okay.  My objection to Harry and Hermione ending up 
together is that it seems like a very safe, simple, and obvious thing 
for a writer to do.  She creates a hero, writes the entire series from 
his POV, gives him one female friend, and what do you know--they fall 
in love.  Not only does he fall in love with her, but she falls in 
love with him.  Yawn.  Boring, and treats the girl (and the boy, to 
some extent) as a commodity--as you've said.

Now, it ain't necessarily so...JKR could put them together but make it 
interesting.  She could put in lots of conflict (I don't mean 
bickering).  She could keep one of them in doubt about the other's 
feelings for a long time.  Lots of possibilities that spice it up.  
But as a *very* rough rule, as a gross generalization, I would prefer 
that the hero and the one interesting female character not end up 
together.  (Introducing another interesting female character would be 
a start . . . but that's another topic.)

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------------------
 "Blimey," said the other twin.  "Are you--?"
 "He *is*," said the first twin.  "Aren't you?" he added to Harry.
 "What?" said Harry.
 "*Harry Potter*," chorused the twins.
 "Oh, him," said Harry.  "I mean, yes, I am."
                                 --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 16:15:09 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:15:09 -0000
Subject: SHIP: R/He compared to D/He
In-Reply-To: <3AA7A074.796803D9@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <988b6d+f11s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13898

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> naama_gat at h... wrote:
> 
> > As I understatnd it, you're maintaining that Hermione's feelings 
are a
> > mystery (that is, we don't know how she's feeling towards Ron, or
> > Harry). At the same time you claim that if Hermione ends up with 
Ron,
> > JKR will have somehow disappointed some of her loyal fans, and, 
again
> > if I understand correctly, the disappointment would be because 
that
> > romance is too expected? How can it be expected if, according to 
your
> > point of view, Hermione's feelings for Ron are unknown? You say 
that
> > an interesting plot should not be obvious. Is R/H obvious then? 
And
> > doesn't this admission seriously undermine the H/H position which 
does
> > claim to
> > see MORE textual evidence to Hermione liking Harry than to 
Hermione
> > liking Ron?
> 
> I think (Ebony can correct me if I'm wrong) that Ebony is saying if
> Hermione's feelings are not ambiguous & conflicted and in fact are 
for
> Ron, that build-up of ambiguity & conflict will have been 
unwarranted
> and "unfair."  If she was going to end up R/H *without any 
conflict,
> soul-searching or problems*, then why cloak Hermione's feelings at 
all?
> Why not make it as obvious that Hermione likes Ron (and leave off 
with
> anything that could possibly be interpreted as Herm liking Harry)? 
 If
> she put in subtext that could support Hermione liking Harry when 
she
> never really intended to act on that or make anything of it *at 
all,*
> then it's just disingenous.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Ebony agrees with me that JKR is in fact 
setting up
> a conflict within the Threesome: FITD.  If she is not and she's 
going to
> open up Book 5 with Hermione declaring her love for Ron, then all 
the He
> likes Ha subtext in the previous 4 books becomes problematic.  JKR 
will
> have essentially been dishonest with some segment of her readers if 
she
> doesn't set up some sort of conflict.  It can still *end up* being 
R/H
> and not be a problem.  But, if it just segues right into R/H with 
no
> conflict on Hermione's part, then JKR will (IMO) have been guilty 
of
> unnecessarily raising the stakes so to speak.

Okay. I see your position more clearly now. But we're back to square 
one, aren't we? Its back to Ha/Her textual (/subtextual) evidence, 
and that's something I just can't see. As far as my impressions go, 
it just aint there. 
When I have more time, I'm planning on going over Ebony's list of 
Ha/Her textual evidence and mull over the issue.

> 
> > Ebony: OMG!  I haven't laughed so hard while reading a post in 
AGES!
> > You see, Cassie's expressing the confusion of every H/Her I've 
ever
> > > spoken to.  I know I think the *same thing* whenever the ship 
debate
> >
> > > rolls around.  I identify strongly with Hermione, I put myself 
in
> > her
> > > shoes... and the "I glare at him because I like him" argument 
is
> > > unconvincing to me.  The first thing I think to myself is, 
"well,
> > > Hermione glares at Draco as well, doesn't she?  So following 
your
> > > rhetoric, this means that she likes Ron, and Draco, and 
everyone
> > > who "gets under her skin"."
> >
> > Oh, but thats not fair! I claim a foul <g>. You know its not 
fair.
> > Draco is Hermione's enemy and her glares at him do not call for 
any
> > special attention. But Ron? He is one of her best friends, she
> > obviously cares about him very much (as a friend), and it is in 
*this*
> > context that the antagonism he so easily awakens in her seems
> > indicative of underlying feelings Hermione has for him.
> 
> How is that a "foul"?  There are plenty of romantic comedies where 
the
> two eventual romantic partners *hate* each other (are enemies) 
prior to
> falling madly in love.  If you subscribe to the R/H theory on the
> grounds that sparks = passion (in the fine tradition of romantic
> comedies), it hardly seems unfair that you consider the D/He 
possibility
> on the same grounds.  That is decidedly *not* unfair at all.  It's 
a
> very appropriate and logical conclusion.

<ahem> Draco and Hermione seem to you like the typical bickering 
romantic comedy couple?! I'm sorry, but I haven't seen many romantic 
comedies where the couple are a Ku-Klux-Klan man and a black woman! 
Which is essentialy what a Draco-Hermione romance would be. That kind 
of stuff does not easily lend itself either to comedy or to romance 
(well, maybe very heavy tragedy). Draco and Hermione are *real* 
enemies in a good vs. evil fight. What they have between them is real 
bad blood, not "sparks". 
Again, please think of the context of what's happening between the 
characters - the sparks between Hermione and Ron happen in the 
context of friendship; the sparks between Hermione and Draco happen 
in the context of deadly serious hatred (with life and death 
implications - he wants her dead because she's a mudblood, 
remember?).
Regarding Ron and Hermione I'll rephrase my point: What do we 
actually *know* for certain about Hermione's feelings for Ron? Well, 
we know he's one of Hermione's two best friends; we know she likes 
him and cares for him a lot. With this in the background the question 
arises - why then are there so much "sparking" going on between them? 
A fairly reasonable answer is that she has unacknowledged feelings 
for him which make her more sensitive and  vulnerable to him, and 
therefore more easily angered by him. It's the sparks-within- 
friendship that arouses our (R/H-ers) "worse suspicions", not sparks 
as such, see? <g>

> Ebony: > On the other hand, who else has Hermione shown clear 
evidence
> > of > being somewhat attracted to in canon?  She *was* attracted 
to
> > > Lockheart (twelve year old girl's crush on a teacher--even Ron
> > admits
> > > to it)--how did she react while she was around him?  She may 
not
> > have
> > > been swept off her feet by Krum, but she liked him enough to go 
to
> > > the Yule Ball with him--did she glare at him all the time, too? 
 Or
> > > initially?
> >
> > 'Like' is not the same as 'attract'. It is quite obvious (to me) 
that
> > she is not *at all* attracted to Krum. The "beetle in your hair 
scene"
> > makes that abundantly clear, I believe.
> 
> Ah, yes.  The scene where she couldn't stop talking to Harry, 
cheering
> for Harry.  That one?  <g>
> 

Ouch.  
But I'm not going there, Penny. I know that you know that I know that 
you don't really think that it's conclusive Hermione-likes-Harry 
evidence <g> umm.. actually <vbg>

BTW, I must say whenever I read that scene I really feel sorry for 
Krum. He has just carried her safely to the shore, and what's more he 
knows that everybody now knows that he is in love with her - and she 
just ignores him. Very humiliating. 

Naama




From paxber at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 16:29:04 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:29:04 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Where to find the H/H Mission Statement
In-Reply-To: <3AA6FE30.2B00EA2B@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <988c0g+dkgq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13899

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

Penny answered me
> 
> Paula wrote:
> 
> > -- I'm a sucker for a happy ending.
> > -- Which means I wouldn't want to see Ron die
> > -- So he should end up with the girl in order to be happy, and I
> > think even the H/Hers do agree that currently, R likes H.
> >
> Paula, you're probably too new to realize you've stepped in a 
virtual
> land mine with that last comment.  That's the "consolation prize"
> argument, which the H/H types hate with a passion.  That is: Harry 
has
> everything (fame, wealth) so Ron should "get the girl."  We maintain
> that Hermione is not some prize to be won, and Ron must earn her
> affection & love if he's to have her.  :--)

I see your point, but that's not quite how I saw it. I meant that for 
a completely happy ending, everyone should get what s/he wants most. 
At the moment, as of Vol. 4, Ron does want Hermione, Harry doesn't 
seem to (just at the moment), and we're not sure about Hermione. I 
think you're right that this is largely contingent on what Hermione 
wants. I also think it's quite likely that JKR will *not* give us an 
unalloyed happy ending. Heck, maybe *Hermione* dies. That would at 
least be a bit less hackneyed than Ron buying the farm. Or maybe 
Hermione and Ginny end up together -- who knows what they were 
talking about when H stayed in G's room at the beginning of GoF?

I'm sort of in the water between ships at the moment, possibly closer 
to SS R/He but not over with the Unshippers tube float, so I don't 
want to sound like I'm arguing too hard for one side or the other. 
Plus, if my gut tells me anything, it's that Hermione would totally 
agree with the H/Hers in their revulsion for the idea of her as a 
booby prize.

Paula2




From prince_galrion at yahoo.no  Thu Mar  8 16:49:18 2001
From: prince_galrion at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:49:18 +0100 (CET)
Subject: House-badges/devices AND punishment&crankiness AND warSHIPS for hire.
In-Reply-To: <984017973.1410.93353.l8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010308164918.83921.qmail@web12815.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13900

Blimey!  I seem to have started off quite a topic here. 

--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> skrev: 
> pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no wrote:

[snip]
> >  I do not think that the use of the term rampant in the books is as
> > strictly adhering to the rules of heraldry as it would be in a
> > textbook on heraldry, and therefore rampant to sinister would not
> > encessarily be described as such.
> 
> Well, yeah, but you were using a bit more heraldic jargon yourself than
> I'm used to hearing, living in a country where living, breathing
> armigers are rare and "crest" commonly means coat of arms. It sounded
> like you had a specific citation or text justification for knowing the
> lion faced to sinister.

Well, I'm Norwegian, so I am at least closer to regions where heraldry was common - it
was not too common in Norway, though it was in use here.  Nowadays, personal arms will be
frowned upon by some people (who see it as a way of upholding a classist society), but
municipal arms are very alive, and the choice of municipal devices is subject to public
interest.  You would probably like Norwegian municipal heraldry - it is very simple, as
the rules dictate that it is limited to two tinctures and a single charge (which may be
repeated - i.e., two lions passant is allowable, but not a lion passant and a lion
rampant, or a lion passant and a badger passant).  Also, no supporters, helmets or
crests.  Fortified cities are allowed a mural crown, however.

Of course, I also have more of an interest in heraldry than most of my peers - acquired
in part through an rpg where we played upper-class brits in the 1920s, and in part from
an rpg placed in Flanders anno 1240.

> I didn't for a minute think the words "rampant to sinister" occurred in
> the books; I just thought you might have seen some "to the left" or "to
> the right" or something similar that made you so certain.
> 
> Otherwise, the most "honorable" part of a shield was the dexter chief
> (that's upper left, to those of you looking at it), and so in most
> heraldry the animals tended to face that direction by default. The lions
> of England face to dexter, and lions facing that way probably just look
> right, for no reason a person in the street could put a finger on, for
> you Brits out there. So the Gryffindor device is to dexter; makes sense
> to me.
> 
> >  I think the word rampant when used in the books should probably be
> > taken as a general description of an animal standing upright (which is
> > what my dictionary gives as the meaning of "rampant" when used about
> > animals).
> 
> I don't. Brits as a rule are a bit more aware of heraldry than
> Americans. Wish I could find my references, but I seem to recall that
> JKR was pretty descriptive of the positions of the other animals, albeit
> they were described in English and not heraldese. I could be totally
> wrong, but I still think that an English person is familiar enough with
> "rampant" and heraldic depictions to know what that particular term of
> jargon means.

[snip]

> > But were not Hufflepuff's colours black and yellow in the first
> > place?  A black badger in a yellow field, I believe.
> 
> Yeah, I think you're right. As I said I don't have the books to hand,
> and my Hogwarts fridge magnet's downstairs. So their quartered field is
> the House colors, just as Gryffindor's. Makes sense.

Except that the quartered fields is not really a happy solution.

[snip]

> > Still, I think they would have made happier choices by simply
> > duplicating what has been displayed at least in th UK-editions for the
> > house-arms.
> 
> Post a picture file to the group! I haven't seen a UK edition yet.

Actually, on of the mugs has an almost excact reproduction.  If you again direct your
browser to http://www.hpgalleries.com/muggallery.htm and look at the picture at the left
on the top (entitled "Journey to Hogwarts"), the arms displayed there are almost exactly
the same as in the UK books, down to the shape of the shield.  The difference is that the
arms on the cup are coloured, and those in the books simply have something meant to be
hatching (but it is not).  The background on the mug (the red and blue lozengy pattern)
and the scroll bearing the name "Hogwarts" are not in the books, but the scroll with the
school motto is there, in the same position as in the books. The central field witht he
letter "H" is also a bit different in the books - it is a completely square,s
traight-edged block, with the letter in the style of an engraving in stone, roman-style.

I also see that I worder myself somewhat unclearly - what I meant was to repeat, for the
hosue-devices in the movie, the design used in the quarters of the Hogwarts arms as shown
in the UK books.

> Byt the way, if you feed people smalahove and keel-haul them when you're
> cranky, what do you do when you're truly P.O.'d?

Do you really want to know?  OK.  Norway simply does not have punishments stringent
enough for those cases, so we simply ship them off to Sweden and expose them to
surstrmming.  surstrmming is apparently a form of fermented freshwater fish, but the
exact procedure of manufacture is still a secret heavily guarded by the Swedish
armament-industry.  Secret movements are underway to have the use of surstrmming in war
condemned, in the same manner as chemical and biological weapons are today.  Sweden did
threaten Denmark with surstrmming in a recent disagreement between the two countries
regarding a Swedish nuclear powerplant, but the Danes carried out a preemptive strike
with Danish "gammelost", and the Swedes surrendered.  The powerplant is, AFAIK, due to
shut down within five years.  <g>

ANNOUNCEMENT:  WarSHIPs for hire!

The heavy scouting-squadron of the mercenary fleet is now for hire for any SHIPs that
feel they need protection.  The squadron will include the battlecruiser HMS Lion; the
aircraft-carrier HMS Eagle; the light cruisers HMS Sirius, HMS Minerva, HMS Centaur and
HMS Dragon; several torpedoboats and TBDs, including, but not restricted to, HMS Griffin
(H31), HMS Basilisk (H11), HMS Venomous (D75), HMS Witch (D89), HMS Wizard (R72), HMS
Sybille, HMS Sorceress, HMS Owl, HMS Harpy, HMS Stag, HMS Express (H61, shortly to have
its name amended to HMS Hogwarts Express) and USS Fletcher (DD445); an
antisubmarine-flotilla consisting of the corvettes HMS Pansy, HMS Lily and HMS Petunia; a
minesweeping-group consisting of the minesweepers HMS Poppy, HMS Myrtle and HMS Lupin;
and HM submarine Sibyl.  Torpedo-gunboats HMS Hazard, HMS Speedy and HMS Spanker and the
gunboat HMS Gay Viking are kept in reserve for the time being.

Attempts to refit the light cruiser HMS Cordelia, HMS Hermione and the
torpedoboat-destroyers HMS Keith (D06), HMS Clare(I14), HMS Cassandra (R62) and HMS Wild
Swan (D62) for service, have so far not been succesful, as it appears they have been
taken over by other SHIPping-entities, one of which appears to be the H/H SteampSHIP
navigation Co. Ltd.

Services offered include, but are not limited to; raiding, piracy, disruption of general
SHIPpinglanes and general escort against various forms of attack.  Landing-parties can
also be organised to search out and apprehend fugitive farmers and return them, under
armed guard, to their dells.  ;-)

Best regards
Christian Stub
Captain-General of the heavy scouting-squadron of the mercenary navy
Hailing from the country of recent political purges.

P.S.    All shipnames given above *are* genuine ship-names of the Royal Navy of Great
Britain, with the exception of USS Fletcher, which was the lead-ship of an American class
of destroyers.  The names can be found by looking through "Destroyers of World war Two: 
An international Encyclopedia" by M. J. Whitley, "Jane's Fighting Ships of World War I"
and "Jane's Fighting Ships of World War II".

P.P.S.  The paragraphs on surstrmming and warships are of course entirely tongue-in-cheek.

______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Organiser sammenkomsten p http://no.invites.yahoo.com



From katie at vquill.com  Thu Mar  8 16:48:21 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:48:21 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Responses to Firoza (and Cassie) on R/H and Such...
In-Reply-To: <F137NVU5S1aTeeCXjiG00002359@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010308083853.00b37f00@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13901

At 05:07 PM 3/7/01 -0800, you wrote:
>
>R/Hr shippers tend to be newer fans of the books. They went from one book to
>the next, and so on, not re-reading a million times * before * moving on.
>They make their opinions, then go back and re-read the books, pulling out
>what supports R/Hr, and convince themselves that Is The Way It Is.
>
>Flame away.
>
>MC


At risk of people not understanding my sense of humor:  perhaps the H/H 
shippers just over-analyze? ;)  Really, it's only a joke and does not 
reflect the way I feel at all. Ahem.

Anyhow, frankly I think that the book supports just about anything if you 
read it the right way.  If it were easy to pick up on who likes who, the 
books wouldn't be half as good as they are! It's JKR's ability to paint a 
picture that is so realistic, because people have life-like reactions in 
crazy situations.

Sure, Ron and Hermione may just argue. Or maybe it's flirting. Or not. Who 
knows? I certainly don't think it's anything to fight over, and it's 
impossible to *prove* anything. :)

Frankly, when I first read it, I thought we'd end up with Harry/Hermione... 
until book 4 when it seemed that a Ron/Hermione thing was obvious, despite 
the fact that Ginny obviously was ga-ga over Harry. Going back to book 3 
again, I see a lot more Ron/Hermione there than I did before. I think when 
I read it the first time, I had the pre-conceived idea that the main hero 
(Harry) and the heroine (Hermione) would end up together and live happily 
ever after because it's what we've grown to expect.

(Note: JKR has 'gotten' me on *every* *single* *book*!  I'm a sucker for 
red-herrings....)

It's complicated. It's why I love them. :) It's not a love triangle.. it's 
a love polygon of life-like proportions.  It shows the complexity of Real 
Life, especially for teenagers who are still trying to figure out who they 
are. :)

*shrug*  :)  I don't really care who ends up with who. :D  Just let me read 
them all right NOW! :D

-Katie



From flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 17:13:32 2001
From: flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com (flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:13:32 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups
In-Reply-To: <984063433.2983.53813.s5@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <988ejs+3b9c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13902


Wow, great story!  Are you going to continue with it?  I would love 
to read more. 

Michelle





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 17:26:15 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:26:15 -0000
Subject: Request for information
Message-ID: <988fbn+4uc0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13903

Hi,

I've tried to search but can't find the reference to the chat where 
JKR made the famous (and contentious) statement about there being 
"something between Ron and Hermione". Could someone kindly direct me 
to it?

Thanks.

Naama




From john at walton.to  Thu Mar  8 17:30:16 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:30:16 +0000
Subject: A book-banning giggle
Message-ID: <B6CD7228.D908%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 13904

IIRC, book-banning discussion is not verboten on the main list ::looks
hurriedly around for the sight of hairnet 'n' bunny slippers descending onto
the scene:: so I'll post this here :) It's amusing in that it's actually a
real "Ban Potter Books" site, down to the lovely hi-tech "King Jesus"
background and the Satan-in-every-other-sentence drivel it spouts.

Do any of the Buffy fans think this is a bit like MOO?

Oh, one last thing before I go, and something that's really annoying me
recently -- *Pagans, Wiccans and other modern-day Witches don't believe in
or worship Satan*. Satan is a Judeo-Christian-Islamic creation and is a
propagandised corruption of the Pagan God, just like Hallowe(')en is a
corruption of the Pagan festival Samhain (pronounced Sow-inn). Just wanted
to make that abundantly clear.

Amusedly,

--John

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///

John "Such a Witch!" Walton                 john at walton.to

Remember: socks then shoes.

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 17:44:11 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:44:11 -0000
Subject: Trailer, Shipping, Logo Poll and anything else I happen to think of
Message-ID: <988gdb+ft5s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13905

I have also been seeking to download the trailer.  There was a 
message a few days ago that someone had uploaded it to our Files 
section, but it is NOT there -- I have checked several times.  
Possibly it is too large; I know there is some limit to how much you 
can store; in that case maybe it could be stored in the HP4GUps 
Graphics group? (I am not sure how these things work -- maybe someone 
could clarify?)

Also, someone at some point posted a list of all the sites that had 
the trailer, but I can not seem to find it in the morass of trailer 
posts.  Could that person post that list to the Files section?

As for the BBC Newsround link, you can download the trailer from 
there but it is the RealPlayer version which IMHO is very poor 
quality.  If anyone could tell me where to download the Quicktime or 
Windows Media version, I would give their House 50 points.  Or better 
yet, upload it to somewhere accessible to the group.

And I would like to make a request, actually a plea to the Shippers.  
There have been an awful lot of shipping posts lately, MANY of which 
did NOT have the word *SHIP* in the Subject Header.  Please remember 
that some of us get seasick when we accidently stumble aboard your 
incessently rocking boats.  Check those Subject Headings!  (And no, I 
am not just saying that in the hopes that the Moderators will make me 
a Prefect.)

I also second the motion for a second place poll for the logo, which 
would enable us to determine the winner in the event of a tie, or of 
any voting irregularities in, say, Florida.  (I will now stand in the 
corner for 15 minutes wearing a duncecap which says *I made an 
election joke*.)  Seriously, though, I was also torn between numbers 
7 and 10 and would like at opportunity to vote for a 2nd choice.

OK, I will stop here as I am obviously being a grumpy little witch 
today.

--Joywitch




From john at walton.to  Thu Mar  8 17:52:42 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:52:42 +0000
Subject: ADMIN: Legality of having the trailer in Files
In-Reply-To: <988gdb+ft5s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6CD7769.D918%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 13906

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> I have also been seeking to download the trailer.  There was a
> message a few days ago that someone had uploaded it to our Files
> section, but it is NOT there -- I have checked several times.
> Possibly it is too large; I know there is some limit to how much you
> can store; in that case maybe it could be stored in the HP4GUps
> Graphics group? (I am not sure how these things work -- maybe someone
> could clarify?)

Actually, Joywitch, the Moderator Team made the decision to take it out of
the Files section as it violates WB's copyright for us to store it. Heidi
suggested (but did not legally advise...did I get that right, Heidi?) that
we dissuade folks from putting it back.

However, it's fine to post a link to the actual trailer instead of the WB
site, if anybody wants to. I know it was on DarkHorizons.com in the News
Section at one point, but can't vouch that it's still there.

Incidentally, another reason not to have huge files like the trailer there
is that YahooGroups now has a daily File Transfer limit based on the number
of listees in a group. As yet we've had no problems with this, but if we
were to put an enormous file in there I'm sure we'd have issues.

--John, always willing to discuss this further through private email :)
________________________________________________

John "Such A Witch!" Walton                 john at walton.to

=| HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47

=| The Moderators say: "Do you want a better career? Sure, we all do. So
read the Very FAQ and Make More Money!"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
________________________________________________




From chessdiva at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 18:06:32 2001
From: chessdiva at hotmail.com (Lisa Gansky)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 10:06:32 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron/Hermione and other paraphernalia
Message-ID: <F225449kFL1ahdtT8es0000474c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13907

>Becca:
>   "<snip> Well, for the time being I'm running out of arguments for the 
>R/Hr
>ship. Just out of curiosity, is there any evidence to Hermione liking Harry
>other than the kiss on the cheek? <snip>"
>
>Well, aside from the kiss (which is a pretty big "aside from"), there is 
>the
>fact that when they are in the Quiddich top box, Ron and Harry go ga-ga 
>over
>the veela. Hermione pulls Harry back down and apparently would be happy to
>see Ron jump right over the side. When Harry and Ron get into The Fight, 
>she
>seems to spend a lot of time with him. And then there's just the fact she
>never calls him a git, etc., which she calls Ron daily. There are more, I
>know it, but I can't think of any.

This is true MC, but remember back when you were younger? :) Didn't you 
tease/make fun of your "crush"? I think we all did that...I see Hermione as 
being more interested in Ron...if we're talking "in that way."

~Lisa
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar  8 18:14:47 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:14:47 -0600
Subject: Trailer, Shipping
References: <988gdb+ft5s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA7CC17.DE6B9334@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13908

Hi --

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> I have also been seeking to download the trailer.  There was a
> message a few days ago that someone had uploaded it to our Files
> section, but it is NOT there -- I have checked several times.
> Possibly it is too large; I know there is some limit to how much you
> can store; in that case maybe it could be stored in the HP4GUps
> Graphics group? (I am not sure how these things work -- maybe someone
> could clarify?)

John already mentioned this, but it would be violative of copyright for
us to store the Trailer in our files section.  It was removed for that
reason.

> And I would like to make a request, actually a plea to the Shippers.
> There have been an awful lot of shipping posts lately, MANY of which
> did NOT have the word *SHIP* in the Subject Header.  Please remember
> that some of us get seasick when we accidently stumble aboard your
> incessently rocking boats.  Check those Subject Headings!  (And no, I
> am not just saying that in the hopes that the Moderators will make me
> a Prefect.)

I just went back through the SHIP'ing posts that began on Tues night &
ran through this morning thus far.  You might need to point out the
"Many" posts that were lacking clear subject headings for me, Joywitch.
The only ones that do not have SHIP clearly in the subject heading *did*
have H/H or R/H in the subject heading (and were otherwise pretty darn
clear that shipping was the subject).  There weren't all that many that
I saw that lacked the SHIP designation, but the ones that did were
otherwise quite clear about the subject.

But, I do agree with the sentiment of reminding people about the need to
use the SHIP, FF, MOVIE prefixes as appropriate.  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wings909 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 18:40:11 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:40:11 EST
Subject: Godric's Hollow Location
Message-ID: <f.10e67708.27d92c0c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13909

Does anyone know where the possible location of Godric's Hollow is?  I've been going by what little we know from the books, and this is just off the top of my head but if Hagrid brought Harry to the Dursleys, which we know is in Surrey, and Harry fell asleep flying over Bristol, then Godric's Hollow would be where?

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From snapeman at spray.fr  Thu Mar  8 18:42:18 2001
From: snapeman at spray.fr (snapeman at spray.fr)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 18:42:18 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Legality of having the trailer in Files
In-Reply-To: <B6CD7769.D918%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <988jqa+6rgt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13910

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
 
> Actually, Joywitch, the Moderator Team made the decision to take it 
out of
> the Files section as it violates WB's copyright for us to store it. 
Heidi
> suggested (but did not legally advise...did I get that right, 
Heidi?) that
> we dissuade folks from putting it back.
> 
> 
OK, I confess. I was the irresponsible person who uploaded the 
trailer on to the Files section.
I wanted to make it easier for fellow HP fans to access it. I 
originally downloaded it from the BBC site.
So what are you going to do? Set Voldemort and his pals on me as 
punishment?

Snape Snape Man (Double good)





From wings909 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 18:44:48 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:44:48 EST
Subject: Godric's Hollow Location
Message-ID: <2f.11fe8986.27d92d20@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13911

I forgot to add that I think it's somewhere in Wales, but I wanted to know if there was a more pinpoint location.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor

In a message dated Thu, 8 Mar 2001  1:40:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Wings 909 writes:

<< Does anyone know where the possible location of Godric's Hollow is?  I've been going by what little we know from the books, and this is just off the top of my head but if Hagrid brought Harry to the Dursleys, which we know is in Surrey, and Harry fell asleep flying over Bristol, then Godric's Hollow would be where?

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor
 >>





From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 18:55:57 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:55:57 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Music
Message-ID: <f9.7f19d88.27d92fbd@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13912

<<--The best? Erm, no offence or anything, he's just not my favourite. 
Not that it doesn't fit SOME things. 

Scott>>

We all have our favorites. Williams does his work well and has definitely been recognized for it. Not to say there are not other composers out there equally as talented but Williams is one of the best for the kind of work he does.

If we all had the same opinions, life would be dull:)

~Hedwig~



From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  8 19:28:27 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:28:27 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House-badges
References: <20010308164918.83921.qmail@web12815.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00ac01c0a805$f4be7800$5414a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13913

Blimey!  I seem to have started off quite a topic here.
--- Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net> skrev:
> pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no wrote:

[snip]
Well, yeah, but you were using a bit more heraldic jargon yourself than
I'm used to hearing, living in a country where living, breathing
armigers are rare and "crest" commonly means coat of arms.

And I live in a country where "crest" commonly means toothpaste and fewer
cavities.
Doreen, who lurks and watches the rest go at it tooth & nail, or rather fang
& talon *smile*




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar  8 19:37:06 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:37:06 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Glaring and D/H
In-Reply-To: <98863p+9fus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <988n12+gq2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13914

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
 > > 
Amy: Well said, Naama, and also, it's not glaring per se but the 
> immediate  context thereof.  Glaring at Draco when he's said 
something cutting  just means "Draco, you're an A-1 jerk."  Scowling 
when Ron has just  given Fleur a compliment is a different matter.  
 > > Foul! Foul!  Show 'er the red card, ref!  (Or at least the 
> > yellow...Ebony, you get off with a warning.)
---------------

Cassie also cries "Foul!" Hermione hardly limits her glaring at Ron 
to the times when he's goggling at Fleur. She glares at him * plenty* 
in Books 1- 3, when there is no Fleur, not even counting the times he 
makes her cry.
> 
> 
Heidi: And here, I cry "Foul!" Honestly, Hermione's glares at Draco 
could 
> mean at least 4 different things:
> 1. You're a bigoted git and I wish you'd go away.
> 2. Why do you act like a bigoted git in public when I know that you 
> don't act that way when other Slytherins aren't around.
> 3. You really hate ron, don't you? Did he mess up your 
fingerpainting 
> at Wizarding Nursery School?
> or 4. How can someone so completely cute and sexy be such a bigoted 
> git?
> 
> I'm sure others can come up with other explanations. Cass?
> 
* is ROTFL about the cute and sexy business.* I suppose it depends 
whether you hold out hope for Draco's redemption or not -- whether 
you would prefer to see him as a purely evil little cardboard cutout 
with no depth; or are hoping for a bit more in the way of levels from 
him in canon. For some reason, the R/H ers seem to hate him more than 
the H/H ers (I know, I know MASS generalization, always exceptions, 
etc.) -- perhaps because he's so very unpleasant to Ron? I mean, he 
*hates* Harry, but, in a yuck sort of way, respects and fears him. 
Ron, he just has withering and total contempt for. *realizes she's 
really selling Draco here* 
I also can't get with whoever said (Naama?) D/H was like a romance 
between a black woman and a man in the Ku Klux Klan. I don't agree 
for the reason that Draco is a CHILD, he's a LITTLE BOY, and children 
are mutable. The actions he takes in the next few years will 
determine what kind of person he turns out to be -- as far as I'm 
concerned, he hasn't *done* anything unforgivable yet, even if the 
attitudes he espouses are repellent. And *cough* Snape. Nuff said.

Cassie

NB: Hey, Amy gave me fifty bucks to make DS R/H and Penny gave me 
fifty bucks to make it H/H. <vbeg> A cottage industry. Amy, for sixty 
bucks you get a date with Lupin, how's that?!




From john at walton.to  Thu Mar  8 19:36:42 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:36:42 +0000
Subject: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
In-Reply-To: <B6CD7228.D908%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <B6CD8FCA.D940%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 13915

John Walton wrote:

> IIRC, book-banning discussion is not verboten on the main list ::looks
> hurriedly around for the sight of hairnet 'n' bunny slippers descending onto
> the scene:: so I'll post this here :) It's amusing in that it's actually a
> real "Ban Potter Books" site, down to the lovely hi-tech "King Jesus"
> background and the Satan-in-every-other-sentence drivel it spouts.
> 
> Do any of the Buffy fans think this is a bit like MOO?
> 
> Oh, one last thing before I go, and something that's really annoying me
> recently -- *Pagans, Wiccans and other modern-day Witches don't believe in
> or worship Satan*. Satan is a Judeo-Christian-Islamic creation and is a
> propagandised corruption of the Pagan God, just like Hallowe(')en is a
> corruption of the Pagan festival Samhain (pronounced Sow-inn). Just wanted
> to make that abundantly clear.
> 
> Amusedly,
> 
> --John

Oops. I appear to have forgotten to paste in the link to the site. Please
put that down to a brain FART (Forgetful And Really Tired). ::apologetic
look:: Here it is --

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter.htm

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///

John "Such a Witch!" Walton                 john at walton.to

Remember: socks then shoes.

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///




From john at walton.to  Thu Mar  8 19:41:16 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:41:16 +0000
Subject: SHIP: R/D Hatred (was:  Glaring and D/H)
In-Reply-To: <988n12+gq2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6CD90DC.D948%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 13916

cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:

> * is ROTFL about the cute and sexy business.* I suppose it depends
> whether you hold out hope for Draco's redemption or not -- whether
> you would prefer to see him as a purely evil little cardboard cutout
> with no depth; or are hoping for a bit more in the way of levels from
> him in canon. For some reason, the R/H ers seem to hate him more than
> the H/H ers (I know, I know MASS generalization, always exceptions,
> etc.) -- perhaps because he's so very unpleasant to Ron? I mean, he
> *hates* Harry, but, in a yuck sort of way, respects and fears him.
> Ron, he just has withering and total contempt for. *realizes she's
> really selling Draco here*

As some *other* blond guy paraphrased, "Hey, Malfoy, if you're going to be
unpleasant to Ron..." Two Thumbs Up. >:)

--John, who knows at least two people will get that...

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///

John "Such a Witch!" Walton                 john at walton.to

Remember: socks then shoes.

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar  8 19:48:06 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:48:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Request for information
References: <988fbn+4uc0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c201c0a808$b57f56c0$5414a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13917

I've tried to search but can't find the reference to the chat where
JKR made the famous (and contentious) statement about there being
"something between Ron and Hermione". Could someone kindly direct me
to it?
Thanks.
Naama

This is the only thing I could find that even comes close to what you are
looking for. I will keep looking, though
Doreen

Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he going to
fall in love with Ginny Weasley?
 In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not Hermione or
Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time for him to change
his mind. ;-)







From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 19:50:45 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 11:50:45 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Glaring and D/H
Message-ID: <F19jBOh8s4KWiGtXsL1000007b4@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13918





--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
  > >
Amy: Well said, Naama, and also, it's not glaring per se but the
 > immediate  context thereof.  Glaring at Draco when he's said
something cutting  just means "Draco, you're an A-1 jerk."  Scowling
when Ron has just  given Fleur a compliment is a different matter.
  > > Foul! Foul!  Show 'er the red card, ref!  (Or at least the
 > > yellow...Ebony, you get off with a warning.)
---------------

<Cassie also cries "Foul!" Hermione hardly limits her glaring at Ron
to the times when he's goggling at Fleur. She glares at him * plenty*
in Books 1- 3, when there is no Fleur, not even counting the times he
makes her cry.>

MC would also cry "Foul!", but it's becoming overdone. Hermione is a master 
employer of the glare. It's just a trademark thing. I do think there is some 
significance in the fact that she glares at Fleur right then, but the girl * 
does * glare an awful lot.

About the whole KKK D/Hr thing - gah. Not at all, really. Draco is born into 
an uppity family where you just don't except those that are different. If 
you want to compare it to a black/white thing, it's more like a southern 
belle from the old south falling in love with a black man. Not that I'm 
saying Draco is anything like a southern belle...bad mental image.


MC

Psst, Cass - seventy bucks if Emily and Ben have a wild affair!



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From john at walton.to  Thu Mar  8 19:51:15 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:51:15 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN: Legality of having the trailer in Files
In-Reply-To: <988jqa+6rgt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6CD9333.D957%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 13919

I said:
>> Actually, Joywitch, the Moderator Team made the decision to take it out of
>> the Files section as it violates WB's copyright for us to store it. Heidi
>> suggested (but did not legally advise...did I get that right, Heidi?) that we
>> dissuade folks from putting it back.

Snape Snape Man said:
> OK, I confess. I was the irresponsible person who uploaded the
> trailer on to the Files section.
> I wanted to make it easier for fellow HP fans to access it. I
> originally downloaded it from the BBC site.
> So what are you going to do? Set Voldemort and his pals on me as
> punishment?

No, not irresponsible at all, and my wasn't intended to be a public
recrimination in any way. I just wanted to prevent others taking the time to
upload with good intentions and in good faith a large file which the Mods
would then have to delete for legal reasons :)

With the current climate of Warner Bros. litigiousness (see
www.potterwar.org.uk), the Moderator Team has made a general decision that
we're going to err on the side of caution with regard to copyright and
intellectual property issues. After all, nobody wants to see this list get
shut down by WB for copyright infringement.

Lastly, please don't take my message above as a thinly-veiled jibe because,
quite frankly, I'm very bad at thinly-veiled anythings. I tend to tear thin
veils, and anyway, what's the point of having a veil that's so thin you can
see through it? ::v b e g::

--John, recently voted Mr Semantics UK

________________________________________________

John "Diet Coke Addict" Walton                 john at walton.to

=| HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47

=| The Moderators say: "Do you want a better career? Sure, we all do. So
read the Very FAQ and Make More Money!"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
________________________________________________




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Mar  8 20:09:27 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:09:27 -0000
Subject: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
In-Reply-To: <B6CD8FCA.D940%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <988otn+bjfj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13920

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> John Walton wrote:
> 
> > IIRC, book-banning discussion is not verboten on the main list 
::looks
> > hurriedly around for the sight of hairnet 'n' bunny slippers 
descending onto
> > the scene:: so I'll post this here :) It's amusing in that it's 
actually a
> > real "Ban Potter Books" site, down to the lovely hi-tech "King 
Jesus"
> > background and the Satan-in-every-other-sentence drivel it spouts.
> > 
[snip] 
> http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter.htm

Particularly amusing on this stupid site are the "S-shaped sign of 
Satan on Harrys forehead" and this charming excerpt, which quotes JKR:

"The author also uses occult terms in her thinking. Look at this new 
age phrase. "I have a very visual imagination. I see it, then I try 
to describe what is in my mind's eye," This minds eye concept is the 
heart of the new age movement." 

Seriously, though, it is really disturbing that these sort of 
fascists exist.  Yes, they are fascists, IMHO.  They not only believe 
that their way of life is right and everyone elses is wrong, but they 
want to dictate to the rest of us how to live.  They have a lot in 
common with Voldemort, in fact.

--Joywitch




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 20:12:42 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:12:42 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Glaring and D/H
In-Reply-To: <988n12+gq2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <988p3q+tmrm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13921

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:

> I also can't get with whoever said (Naama?) D/H was like a romance 
> between a black woman and a man in the Ku Klux Klan. I don't agree 
> for the reason that Draco is a CHILD, he's a LITTLE BOY, and 
> children are mutable. The actions he takes in the next few years 
> will determine what kind of person he turns out to be -- as far as 
> I'm concerned, he hasn't *done* anything unforgivable yet, even if 
> the attitudes he espouses are repellent. And *cough* Snape. Nuff 
> said.

Yup, it was me (Naama) who said that. And the point I was making was 
not that Draco is not redeemable. If Snape, who was presumably a 
fully fledged DE, can convert to the good side, Draco certainly can. 
The point is that *now* he is a Ku Klux Klan guy (in the sense that 
in his opinions at least, if not in his actions, he is a bloodthirsty 
racist). So, a romance between Hermione and Dracto NOW *is* similar 
to a romance between a Ku Klux Klan guy and a black woman. Thats all.

Naama






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 20:15:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:15:30 -0000
Subject: SHIP/FF: Glaring and D/H
In-Reply-To: <988n12+gq2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <988p92+tkql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13922

> Amy: Well said, Naama, and also, it's not glaring per se but the 
> > immediate  context thereof.  Glaring at Draco when he's said 
> something cutting  just means "Draco, you're an A-1 jerk."  
Scowling 
> when Ron has just  given Fleur a compliment is a different matter.  
>  > > Foul! Foul!  Show 'er the red card, ref!  (Or at least the 
> > > yellow...Ebony, you get off with a warning.)
> ---------------

Cassandra:

> Cassie also cries "Foul!" Hermione hardly limits her glaring at Ron 
> to the times when he's goggling at Fleur. She glares at him * 
plenty* 
> in Books 1- 3, when there is no Fleur, not even counting the times 
he 
> makes her cry.

Okay, but the original comment by Ebony was along the lines that if 
we're going to read into Hermione's glares at Ron, we have to do the 
same with her glares at Draco.  Not so.  Glares have many meanings, 
yes, including "how can you be so hot and such a $@!#* jerk?" (LOL, 
Heidi!).  The point is that we can go ahead and read romance into one 
glare and not another with perfect logic.  What R/Her claimed that a 
glare in and of itself was a sign of underlying affection?

And you know I love Draco, so no drawing sweeping conclusions about 
R/Hers!  Hey, I'd even go for a D/H romance if Jo wanted to try that 
one on us.  Poor Hermione would spend another chunk of a year with 
Harry AND Ron boycotting her.  

Re: $60 for a date with Lupin, he's definitely worth it, but I'm 
cleaned out.  Besides, I thought I was getting one for free!  Or is 
it hopeless now because it'd be too confusing what with Sirius's ex 
named Amy?  You've got the makings of a good soap there:  Lupin goes 
to the wedding with an ex of Sirius's...you take it from there.

Ever-hopefully,
Amy Z




From schmiksue at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 20:25:04 2001
From: schmiksue at yahoo.com (schmiksue at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:25:04 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Please don't kill me
Message-ID: <988pr0+espq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13923

I have been lurking for quite a while, and I can't seem to not get 
caught up in shipper debates.

I am a proud R/He and Ha/G shipper.  I had a few different views on 
the subject that I have not seen yet, so I thought I'd throw them out. 
 I have a bad feeling I'm going to get mangled here, but please don't 
kill me:) It's all in fun.

One thing that seems to bug me about H/H is that most of the fans say 
basically that, "they make a good couple."  I think people in general 
make this statement a lot without considering the actual feelings of 
the couple.  Now, I know I'm taking into consideration that Hermione 
does not have any romantic feelings towards Harry, and vice versa.  
But what if, even though they would make a good couple, Harry and 
Hermione simply do not feel anything above friendship for each other?

I've had a very simular situation happen to me.  In highschool, a boy 
that I got along with very well asked me out.  However, I had no 
feelings for him whatsoever.  Oh the tourture my classmates put on me 
to simply go to prom with him.  They just could not understand why I 
would not go with him, and I heard day after day what a perfect couple 
we would make.

As time went on, we became really good friends.  I have never 
regretted the fact that I would not go out with him.  Why should I?  I 
cannot see him as a romantic interest.  He feels the same way.  Just 
the other day he was saying that he was glad I didn't go out with him. 
 He got to know me, and he sees me as me.  He values my friendship, 
but he honestly can't see me as anything more.

And why can't a boy and a girl have a strictly platonic relationship?  

I also feel like I should defend H/G a little.  I was a Ginny in high 
school.  I could not talk to anyone unless they were my close friend.  
Simply saying "hi" was a major feat for me.  I remember saying time 
and time again to my friends, "if only they took the time to know the 
real me."  I was actually screaming out for attention, but all the 
attractive guys were too busy playing sports, or hanging out with 
their friends to notice.  I never did get them to notice, but 
something inside of me just screams out to poor Ginny.  I guess since 
I never got noticed, deep down inside I hope she will.  Does that make 
any sense?  Seriously, I'm not even sure if it makes sence to me:)

So, I don't know if I made my views clear at all, or if I just made a 
bunch of people sit there, staring at my post thinking, "what the hell 
is she on?"  Just to answer the question:  It's strictly caffine, I 
swear:)

Sue 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 20:32:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:32:34 -0000
Subject: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
In-Reply-To: <B6CD8FCA.D940%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <988q92+bfg1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13924

Some goodies from http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter.htm?-

>Now just as Halloween is an abomination to God, so is writing books 
that glorify >witchcraft or any kind of mythology. 

Not including Christian mythology, I take it.

>Note how the adults are depicted as hateful and perhaps strict. Then 
>note how these >wizards and other creatures are the good guys. These 
>types of writings are nothing >more then Satan's way to undermine 
>the family

Now, now, don't get your panties in a bunch.  Harry has a very 
wholesome family.  Just look at his surrogate family, the Weasleys?-
those folks know how to obey God's first commandment ("Be fruitful 
and multiply")!  And his godfather turned his life around the day 
Chuck Colson came to preach at Azkaban.  (That's how he REALLY 
maintained his sanity, for those who were wondering.)

>This minds eye concept is the heart of the new age movement. It is 
>the ability to >escape ones confines of this world and to explore 
>the other dimensions of existence. 

I thought that's what the Christian religion was all about: escaping 
the confines of this world and not only exploring, but living 
permanently, in the other dimensions of existence.  While those of us 
who believe firmly in the sacredness of THIS existence get called 
pagans . . . not that I mind the label.

Yeesh.  One begins to wonder whether Christianity will survive the 
stupidity of some of its more disturbed adherents.  Sign me up for 
CRUCIO as a non-Christian auxiliary member.  Non-Christians for a Non-
Idiotic Christianity (I know it's not a cute acronym-?I'll leave that 
to John or Caius).

Amy Z





From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar  8 20:35:55 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:35:55 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Please don't kill me
In-Reply-To: <988pr0+espq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <988qfb+jhaq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13925

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., schmiksue at y... wrote:

Hi Sue! Thanks for posting.

Sue: One thing that seems to bug me about H/H is that most of the 
fans say  basically that, "they make a good couple."  I think people 
in general  make this statement a lot without considering the actual 
feelings of  the couple.  Now, I know I'm taking into consideration 
that Hermione  does not have any romantic feelings towards Harry, and 
vice versa.   But what if, even though they would make a good couple, 
Harry and   Hermione simply do not feel anything above friendship for 
each other?

Erm. But the whole H/H premise is predicated on the theory that 
Hermione has feelings for Harry. Not a one of us believes that Harry 
and Hermione should be forced into a barren, tragic, loveless 
connection simply because they are intellectually compatible. Not a 
one of us isn't taking their feelings into consideration -- in fact, 
a big arguement of the H/H shippers is that R/H shippers *don't* take 
Hermione's feelings into consideration because she so very obviously 
likes Harry. <g> Also I fail to see what's wrong with H/H fans saying 
that Hermione and Harry make a good couple. Don't R/H fans say that 
Ron and Hermione would make a good couple? It depends, in part, on 
your view of what makes a good relationship.  

Sue: "And why can't a boy and a girl have a strictly platonic 
relationship?"

Of course they can. We here on the SS H/H sincerely hope that Ron  
and Hermione will continue having a lovely friendship even after she 
marries Harry.

> 
> I also feel like I should defend H/G a little.  I was a Ginny in 
high  school...I guess since  I never got noticed, deep down inside I 
hope she will.  Does that make  any sense?  Seriously, I'm not even 
sure if it makes sence to me:)

That seems like a defense of Ginny but...I'm not sure how it's a 
defense of H/G. My argument against H/H has always been that Ginny 
isn't a very developed character. If Jo develops her in an 
interesting way, than I'd be open to H/G. (And that would clear up 
Hermione for Draco. Whee! And Ron can have the giant squid.)


Cassie





From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar  8 20:38:27 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:38:27 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Please don't kill me
In-Reply-To: <988qfb+jhaq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <988qk3+6bjs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13926

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:

"My argument against H/H has always been that Ginny 
> isn't a very developed character."

LOL! I meant my argument against H/G of course. Why must H and G be 
next to each other on the keyboard?! Penny will slay me for sure.

giggles, 
 
Cassie




From yesanotherone7 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 20:57:07 2001
From: yesanotherone7 at yahoo.com (yes anotherone)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 12:57:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP:  Please don't kill me
In-Reply-To: <988qfb+jhaq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010308205707.82015.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13927


--- cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., schmiksue at y... wrote:
> 
> Hi Sue! Thanks for posting.
> 
> Sue: One thing that seems to bug me about H/H is
> that most of the 
> fans say  basically that, "they make a good couple."
>  I think people 
> in general  make this statement a lot without
> considering the actual 
> feelings of  the couple.  Now, I know I'm taking
> into consideration 
> that Hermione  does not have any romantic feelings
> towards Harry, and 
> vice versa.   But what if, even though they would
> make a good couple, 
> Harry and   Hermione simply do not feel anything
> above friendship for 
> each other?
> 
> Erm. But the whole H/H premise is predicated on the
> theory that 
> Hermione has feelings for Harry. Not a one of us
> believes that Harry 
> and Hermione should be forced into a barren, tragic,
> loveless 
> connection simply because they are intellectually
> compatible. Not a 
> one of us isn't taking their feelings into
> consideration -- in fact, 
> a big arguement of the H/H shippers is that R/H
> shippers *don't* take 
> Hermione's feelings into consideration because she
> so very obviously 
> likes Harry. <g> Also I fail to see what's wrong
> with H/H fans saying 
> that Hermione and Harry make a good couple. Don't
> R/H fans say that 
> Ron and Hermione would make a good couple? It
> depends, in part, on 
> your view of what makes a good relationship.  
 
I guess I forgot to mention that this also comes out
several times in the books, like the Rita Skeeter
articles.  It seems like everyone just assumes Harry
and Hermione will get together.  Heck, I admit I even
did at first:)  I guess it just does depend on weather
Hermione has feelings for Harry (I think it could go
either way), but it also depends on weather Harry has
feelings for Hermione.  

> Sue: "And why can't a boy and a girl have a strictly
> platonic 
> relationship?"
> 
> Of course they can. We here on the SS H/H sincerely
> hope that Ron  
> and Hermione will continue having a lovely
> friendship even after she 
> marries Harry.

Lol, good one!!  Yes, even though I have a differing
opinion, I do hope they all continue to be friends for
the rest of their lives!!
 
> > I also feel like I should defend H/G a little.  I
> was a Ginny in 
> high  school...I guess since  I never got noticed,
> deep down inside I 
> hope she will.  Does that make  any sense? 
> Seriously, I'm not even 
> sure if it makes sence to me:)

> That seems like a defense of Ginny but...I'm not
> sure how it's a 
> defense of H/G. My argument against H/H has always
> been that Ginny 
> isn't a very developed character. If Jo develops her
> in an 
> interesting way, than I'd be open to H/G. (And that
> would clear up 
> Hermione for Draco. Whee! And Ron can have the giant
> squid.)
> 
> 
> Cassie
> 
> 
I guess I didn't mention with the H/G that I hope once
we do get to know Ginny, Harry finds something out
about her that he can not live without:)


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From bohners at pobox.com  Thu Mar  8 21:08:24 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:08:24 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
References: <988q92+bfg1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <038c01c0a813$eee98420$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 13928

Well, this particular evangelical fundamentalist Christian is tearing her
hair out in despair over the stupidity of it all...  Harry's lightning-bolt
scar a "Satanic S"?  How much more idiotic does it get?

I think if Satan is laughing about anything to do with the HP books, it's
the incredible amount of time and energy some Christians are wasting on
attacking JKR and her work when so many *real* spiritual battles are being
ignored.
--
The Marauder's Map
rebeccaj at pobox.com




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Mar  8 21:04:15 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:04:15 -0000
Subject: A book-banning giggle
In-Reply-To: <B6CD7228.D908%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <988s4f+tm2v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13929

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> IIRC, book-banning discussion is not verboten on the main 
list ::looks
> hurriedly around for the sight of hairnet 'n' bunny slippers 
descending onto
> the scene:: so I'll post this here :) It's amusing in that it's 
actually a
> real "Ban Potter Books" site, down to the lovely hi-tech "King 
Jesus"
> background and the Satan-in-every-other-sentence drivel it spouts.
> 
> Do any of the Buffy fans think this is a bit like MOO?
> 
> Oh, one last thing before I go, and something that's really 
annoying me
> recently -- *Pagans, Wiccans and other modern-day Witches don't 
believe in
> or worship Satan*. Satan is a Judeo-Christian-Islamic creation and 
is a
> propagandised corruption of the Pagan God, just like Hallowe(')en 
is a
> corruption of the Pagan festival Samhain (pronounced Sow-inn). Just 
wanted
> to make that abundantly clear.
> 
> Amusedly,
> 
> --John
> 
> ///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///
\\\///
> 
> John "Such a Witch!" Walton                 john at w...
> 
> Remember: socks then shoes.
> 
> ///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///
\\\///


John--

Well, I won't look t the site (sorry, but puking is *not* one of my 
favourite things to do).  

Thanks for your comments on pagans/wiccans/Other modern-day Witches.  
I'm a pagan, a fact I keep pretty damn quiet down here in the South.  
To your Hallowe'en, I'd add Christmas and Easter.  Christmas was once 
Saturnalia, a Roman orgyday, and Easter comes from Oester, a pagan 
celebration of Rebirth after Winter. 

Parker (holding down the Pagan fort here in Charleston)




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Thu Mar  8 16:10:43 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:10:43 EST5EDT
Subject: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
Message-ID: <155DB984385@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13930

*dragging over my soap box to the middle of the room and 
adjusting the spotlight so it shows only my face because I'm having 
a really bad hair day*

As a Christian and Harry Obsessor...I deeply apologize for this 
site.  I do not support anything that has to do with banning a book, 
period.  Let alone when it is done in the name of God.

Please don't lump all Christians together as Harry haters.....believe 
me when I say there are TONS of us out there that not only  
worship the Holy Trinity but read Harry obsessively and do not 
believe we're all going to Hell because of it.

*climbs off soap box and walks away, head hung in sadness*

Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From starling823 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 21:07:34 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Abigail Tilden)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:07:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
References: <988q92+bfg1@eGroups.com> <038c01c0a813$eee98420$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <004901c0a813$cdb7e580$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13931

**delurks**
regarding our good friends the religious right:

"The attempt to silence a man is the greatest honour you can bestow on him.  It means you recognize his superiority to yourself." -- J. Sobran

no other comments really necessary.  except for a request that they pray for my soul, since, by their defination, i 
am not only going straight to hell, but will laugh the whole way there.  wahoo!

**relurks, shaking her head at the sheer persistance of some beliefs**
Abigail Tilden
starling823 at yahoo.com

But wherever they go, and whatever happens to them on the way, 
in that enchanted place on the top of the forest, 
a little Boy and his Bear will always be playing. 
                     -Winnie the Pooh

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, 08 March, 2001 4:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...


  Well, this particular evangelical fundamentalist Christian is tearing her
  hair out in despair over the stupidity of it all...  Harry's lightning-bolt
  scar a "Satanic S"?  How much more idiotic does it get?

  I think if Satan is laughing about anything to do with the HP books, it's
  the incredible amount of time and energy some Christians are wasting on
  attacking JKR and her work when so many *real* spiritual battles are being
  ignored.
  --
  The Marauder's Map
  rebeccaj at pobox.com


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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Thu Mar  8 21:25:25 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 8 Mar 2001 21:25:25 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <984086725.1147.26303.jb@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13932


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Movie Trailer/trailer.html 
  Uploaded by : natabat at crosswinds.net 
  Description : List of various locations to d/l the trailer. 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Movie%20Trailer/trailer.html 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

natabat at crosswinds.net
 







From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Mar  8 21:29:47 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:29:47 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Please don't kill me
In-Reply-To: <988pr0+espq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <988tkb+h4n2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13933

 schmiksue at y... wrote:
> I have been lurking for quite a while, and I can't seem to not get 
> caught up in shipper debates.
> 
> I am a proud R/He and Ha/G shipper.  I had a few different views on 
> the subject that I have not seen yet, so I thought I'd throw them 
out. 
>  I have a bad feeling I'm going to get mangled here, but please 
don't 
> kill me:) It's all in fun.
> 
> One thing that seems to bug me about H/H is that most of the fans 
say 
> basically that, "they make a good couple."  I think people in 
general 
> make this statement a lot without considering the actual feelings of 
> the couple.  Now, I know I'm taking into consideration that Hermione 
> does not have any romantic feelings towards Harry, and vice versa.  
> But what if, even though they would make a good couple, Harry and 
> Hermione simply do not feel anything above friendship for each 
other?
> 
> I've had a very simular situation happen to me.  In highschool, a 
boy 
> that I got along with very well asked me out.  However, I had no 
> feelings for him whatsoever.  Oh the tourture my classmates put on 
me 
> to simply go to prom with him.  They just could not understand why I 
> would not go with him, and I heard day after day what a perfect 
couple 
> we would make.
> 
> As time went on, we became really good friends.  I have never 
> regretted the fact that I would not go out with him.  Why should I? 
 I 
> cannot see him as a romantic interest.  He feels the same way.  Just 
> the other day he was saying that he was glad I didn't go out with 
him. 
>  He got to know me, and he sees me as me.  He values my friendship, 
> but he honestly can't see me as anything more.
> 
> And why can't a boy and a girl have a strictly platonic 
relationship?  
> 
> I also feel like I should defend H/G a little.  I was a Ginny in 
high 
> school.  I could not talk to anyone unless they were my close 
friend.  
> Simply saying "hi" was a major feat for me.  I remember saying time 
> and time again to my friends, "if only they took the time to know 
the 
> real me."  I was actually screaming out for attention, but all the 
> attractive guys were too busy playing sports, or hanging out with 
> their friends to notice.  I never did get them to notice, but 
> something inside of me just screams out to poor Ginny.  I guess 
since 
> I never got noticed, deep down inside I hope she will.  Does that 
make 
> any sense?  Seriously, I'm not even sure if it makes sence to me:)
> 
> So, I don't know if I made my views clear at all, or if I just made 
a 
> bunch of people sit there, staring at my post thinking, "what the 
hell 
> is she on?"  Just to answer the question:  It's strictly caffine, I 
> swear:)
> 

Note: the following is purely my opinion.

First of all, I'm not a "shipper" in anyway...okay, well, maybe me and 
Sirius <g> so I really don't have any vested interest in R/He or He/Ha 
whatever.

This is what I think about Hermione and the Yule Ball thingy. Hermione 
is 14 years old. She doesn't seem like typical "girly-girl", who piles 
on make-up, giggles inanely about boys, fusses with her hair etc. She 
hangs around two boys, who treat her like "one of the guys". While 
studying in the library she notices that a celebrity is constantly 
surrounded by other girls, most likely girls who are the 
anti-Hermione in terms of appearance and attitude. This 18 year old 
celebrity asks her out to a Ball. That's really an ego-booster! 
Imagine an older and popular guy asking her out...over those other 
girls who probably fuss over their looks and are probably older. It's 
sort of a wake-up call to Hermione about her (dare I say) sexuality? 
To this older popular boy, she's not "ordinary" Hermione: she's 
attractive Hermione. I don't think she went with Krum to make Harry or 
Ron jealous. I think she went with Krum to show them that she's not to 
be taken for granted in anyway.

Secondly, there is nothing absolutely concrete in the canon that says 
Hermione has a crush on Harry or a crush on Ron. The whole kiss on the 
cheek good-bye at the train station can interpreted many ways. But 
look at the entire situation. Voldemort is back at full strength and 
will most likely try to kill Harry. Harry witnessed Cedric's death. 
Harry knew retrospectively that the Cup was meant to transport *him* 
to Voldemort, not him and Cedric. Furthermore, Cedric was killed for 
being a "spare". Harry's went through ALOT! Then he has to go homw to 
the Dursleys, as if that isn't a punishment! The kiss on the cheek 
could be interpreted as romantic or it could be interpreted as 
supportive. If Hermione had given him a full on the lips kiss, I would 
wholeheartedly agree with the romantic interpretation. (And I do think 
Hermione has become more assertive throughout the series and it 
wouldn't be inconceivable for her to do so. Hermione doesn't play 
games: she's straight forward with her friends.) 

As for Ginny, we don't know too much about her, but what we do know is 
she is shy. She has a crush on Harry (from the earlier books) but she 
gave up on him asking her out too when she accepted Neville's 
invitation. Harry might be her heart's desire but surely that Ball 
might make her re-think her feelings about Harry and about herself.

As for Ron and Harry, they may behave relatively more mature in other 
aspects of their lives but I think they are behaving like *boys* in 
terms of romantic relationships. With any luck they will presumably 
grow out of this tendency when they reach age 40 or at least by the 
time the series finishes <g>. 

:-)Milz




From bbennett at joymail.com  Thu Mar  8 21:34:56 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:34:56 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ships, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20010308205707.82015.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <988tu2+bu34@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13934

Wow. I get busy with work and all sorts of things go on here. I read 
through the SHIP posts and started to respond individually, but I 
figured I'd be backtracking, so I thought I'd combine a bunch
of thoughts into 1 post. I apologize if I'm being obvious ?
I've been grafted to my office chair for three days now and have 
possibly lost all common sense. Here goes:

1. Someone stated that R/Hrs think H/Hr's theories are bunk. Not 
true. I understand the arguments, I just don't agree with them
<g>. This doesn't mean I think the people making the arguments
are uneducated, unintelligent, or that I don't respect their
opinions.

2. Character interpretations are based on personal experience.  I 
interpret from the post-Yule Ball argument that Hermione likes Ron 
because at 14 (or now at 30) I would not have said something like 
that to a boy unless I meant it literally. Other HP4GUs have agreed, 
and I think this is a valid argument. On the other hand, some members 
have stated that they interpret this as something said in anger, they 
can relate, and that it should not be taken so literally. This is 
also a valid argument. Does this make the first theory therefore 
irrational? Nope. Character interpretation isn't a black and
white issue, and just because you don't agree with an
interpretation of subtext doesn't mean it's nonexistent or
illogical.

3. This is a group of intelligent, interesting people, and I visit 
here because I enjoy the posts. To emphasize a point, however, I've 
seen posters deliberately misquote or not-so-subtly suggest 
other posters lack intelligence because they overlook
"obvious" material. This makes the original poster feel angry
and foolish and the responding poster look like they can't defend
their theories without resorting to nastiness. Re-read before you hit 
send.

4. Could everyone watch the "lumping all opinions into one
ship" thing?  Just because one person posts an opinion
doesn't mean every other shipper has the same opinion. In
anything I  post relationship-related, I try to make sure my point is 
well thought out and reasonable; it makes me grit my teeth to 
see "All R/Hrs think Hermione and Ron should get together just 
because they think it's unfair for the hero to get the girl and
for no othe reason" type posts. I'm sure some H/Hrs feel the
same way about some of the generalizations thrown out in argument 
against their ship. 

5. Moey, I totally agree with you on the bathroom tile thing on the 
Good Ship R/H. Captain Kathy, I'm sorry, but the stencil thing
isn't going to work. We went with you on the Fred/George
mural in the dining hall; you're just going to have to give on this. 
 
6. Cassie, I'll up the offer to make DS R/H to $75. I think your
Ron is the bee's knees.

7. Read my stories (thought I'd slip that one in there <g>).
They're R/H in nature, but as I said earlier, I respect and enjoy
the opinions of the list members, and I'd love to have your
thoughts to help improve my writing. If you have trouble stomaching 
R/H ? well, they're really short!

That's it ? my 2 cents. I'll stop now. I'm going to go
join my fellow SugarQuiller's for dinner on the Good Ship R/H
<g>. 

B





From bray.262 at osu.edu  Thu Mar  8 16:45:01 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:45:01 EST5EDT
Subject: Hermione and her crush...
Message-ID: <1566E0B487A@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13935

I've been reading these SHIP things and just thought I'd throw in my 
two knuts worth....

If I were Hermione, I'd go for one of the twins (or, Hell...both of 
them!).

But that's just my thought on the subject.....


Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 22:26:30 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:26:30 -0000
Subject: SHIP:  Why Mo Has the Right Idea (veering OT)
In-Reply-To: <e1.114e5ac9.27d84dcc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9890um+f99i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13936

Good evening, list...

Mo wrote:

"Thanks AmyZ! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one and that it's not 
just the R/H-ers. :)  That said, perhaps we could be a little less 
harsh?  I know it gets tedious when you feel you're repeating 
yourself (I teach middle school, I AM a broken record! <g>)"

AMEN!  :::hugs Mo with understanding:::  We middle school teachers, 
IMHO, deserve to be canonized.  Won't make up for the paltry pay and 
the lack of societal respect that accompany the job, but it's a 
start.  :-)

Anyway, I came home from a great day at school (Ancient Egypt is 
FASCINATING, and my kids are loving this unit... more about that on 
the Chatter group, I think) and was looking forward to a sensible 
online discussion on canon ship formation and text vs. subtext.  Last 
night I tried my best to explain my position clearly, thumbing 
through a slew of old posts and straining my brain to save myself a 
flip-through of over 1500 pages of canon.

Instead, I'm reading posts decrying alleged foul play, red cards 
flashing, and rhetoric that contradicts itself within the same post, 
and then goes back to the original reasoning.

The thing that bothers me most about the shipping debates on this 
list is that so many participants won't abide by the rules they 
themselves have requested.  

For the record--if I was an R/H shipper, I was a very reluctant one.  
R/H was never a ship preference for me--it was based upon a number of 
things.  And I'm sure my ship preference was always H/H... because I 
mentally argued with JKR even after coming to a post-GoF, R/H 
conclusion.  Kathy and Elizabeth, I'm intrigued... can you really say 
that H/H was a real preference for you?  Or were you as disquieted on 
the SS H/H as I was on the Good Ship R/H?

If my gut wasn't H/H, there is no way that a bunch of adolescents 
could have persuaded me to their side.  My students have tried to 
persuade me on the merits of everything from anime to Lil' Bow Wow, 
and usually I just stare at them blankly.  And I'm sure I would have 
rejected the inner tube Penny tossed me in July if I hadn't had H/H 
leanings.  

But... so what?  That's why I became a shipper... but then again, I 
ship absolutely *everything*--movies, books, television shows.  So 
this doesn't generate into another round of "How I Became a Fill-in-
the-Blank Shipper", I'll get to the point.

I'm taking the white flag away from Mo, and waving it myself.

I had a list of a half dozen posts that I was going to respond to.  
But this is ceasing to be fun.  I consider redlining argumentative 
essays for consistency in rhetoric work, not recreation.  That isn't 
meant to come across as anything but honest.  When I get to the point 
where I have to delete paragraph in which I e-lecture about the 
difference between facts/inferences/opinions or QARs before I can 
hit "send", it's time for me to be quiet for a while.

Although I love debating in forums online and in real life, I see 
nothing further that I can contribute based on canon to the shipping 
debates on this list.  There are no new books, and I've laid all my 
cards out on the table.  After the 12th, ship posts that have nothing 
to do with canon will be deemed OT and banished to the Chatter group--
and I say it's a Good Thing.  Lately I'm envying the no-shippers--and 
wishing their U-Boat was a real option.  Fandom life seems so easy in 
their submarine.  And none of them are half as misunderstood.  :-)

It's really gotten to the point where I have nothing left to say.

I wrote:
"This is why we don't cluster and only talk to one another all the  
time in places where disparate PoVs are not encouraged.  It gets 
boring talking about how right we are and how much Harry and Hermione 
are meant to be with other like-minded souls.  Not to mention "time 
consuming."  

Mo replied: 
"Now, now Ebony!  I don't think that's fair!  We may have our ship in 
common, but it's hardly an "I sooo agree with you- you're so right-
kiss-kiss-Love Fest."  We enjoy discussing and arguing the books as 
much as anyone. :)"

<vbg> -- I'll leave it at that.  :) 

Mo also said:
"Speaking for myself, I enjoy hearing and discussing other POV's.  
That's why I belong to this list.  I also enjoy a plethora of fanfic, 
which includes several authors that subscribe to this list. :)"

An emphatic "me too"!  Some of my *favorite* people are R/Hers--Kathy 
is a great one for fanfic recommends, B Bennett is one of my Top 20 
fandom writers, and I visit the SugarQuill on a regular basis.  Two 
of my betas are R/H, and one is D/Ha.  The fanfic writers who are 
featured on the list I moderate run the shipping gamut.  The majority 
of fellow HP fans that I chat with on a regular basis (cough!daily!
cough) via IM are *not* H/H.  I'm neither an R/Her nor a slasher, but 
I enjoy visiting their online forums.  That's not shipping--that's 
just being a well-rounded HP obsessive.  :-)  

You see, when HP fandom grows to the point in which we have real 
conventions (don't you dare laugh!  It's coming sooner than you guys 
think!), I want to have dinner with all these people, attend the 
lookalike/costuming contests with them, enter the virtual Quidditch 
tourneys, and engage in a CM filksing with the best of them.  No 
matter *what* their ship or slash preference.

And Mo, I'm sure you'll beat me at chess.  :-)  But that's OK--you 
know that we teachers can talk shop all day, so it'll still be a 
blast!

--Ebony AKA AngieJ

Overheard from one teacher to another:  "They call this a PAYCHECK?  
Well, I call it a tip... and not even fifteen percent, either."




From gaynor at cheerful.com  Thu Mar  8 23:09:24 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:09:24 -0000
Subject: Comic Relief books - already available in South Wales!
Message-ID: <9893f4+n0ob@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13937

Hello

I have been reading with interest the previews for the Comic Relief 
books i.e. Quidditch through the Ages and Fantastic Beasts and Where 
to Find Them. I thought they weren't available until March 12th.

However, I've just been to visit my friend Cath (who also lurks on 
this list) and was astounded to find both books on the shelf in her 
toilet!

It seems she bought them at a bookshop in a certain out-of-town 
shopping centre near Bridgend, South Wales earlier this week. They 
were just sitting on the counter, apparently!

I won't spoil, but I just thought any South Wales people on the list 
might be interested!

Gaynor 




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 23:25:46 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:25:46 -0000
Subject: SHIP
Message-ID: <9894dq+gvh3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13938

Well, here's my two bits.

People on this list are arguing over shipping. I don't think we are 
ever going to convince one another, and the debates are ever more 
repetitive and convoluted. People who won't discuss again the gleam 
in Dumbledore's eye - and are sometimes a bit rude to newbies who 
ask "the same old questions" - will repeat their interpretation of a 
peck on the cheek umpteen times. That's a bit contradictory, isn't it?

For the record, I am a R/H shipper (and a H/G shipper) because I want 
to be. It's my choice. It's more based on how I feel, what I would 
do, who I would like (I think I see myself in the female's shoes, and 
interpret their behavior along the lines of what I would do and have 
done). None of the H/H arguments are "wrong", they I just don't agree 
with the various interpretations. It feels wrong to me, and you guys, 
smart and interesting tho some of the arguments are, are not going to 
suddenly make me see the light. It's just a personal choice, like a 
favorite conductor or an actor. I've seen the same "evidence" 
accompanied by different interpretations. There are no new books, as 
someone just said. I believe what Jo said. nudge nudge wink wink. I 
think I'm just lucky that what she said coincides with what I wanted 
all along! And if it doesn't happen, nearly every couple I can 
imagine from the books has been done in fanfic, and usually in good 
fanfic. So everyone wins, as long as no one gets truely nasty in 
debate, and no one gets hurt. No one has so far, but it could 
(because this issue is nearly as explosive as politics!)

Oh, and the peck on the cheek? At 14, there was NO WAY I was kissing 
anyone on the cheek if I was romantically interested. I turned into a 
bumbling, slient, embarrassed idiot when confronted with my crush. 
Not going to pull a smooth kiss on the cheek. So you see, how we are 
interpreting. 

Heather M., who should probably not be pushing send....




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  8 23:30:47 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:30:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A book-banning giggle
References: <988s4f+tm2v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA81627.F71500AB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13939

pbnesbit at msn.com wrote:

> I'm a pagan, a fact I keep pretty damn quiet down here in the South.
> To your Hallowe'en, I'd add Christmas and Easter.  Christmas was once
> Saturnalia, a Roman orgyday, and Easter comes from Oester, a pagan
> celebration of Rebirth after Winter.
>
> Parker (holding down the Pagan fort here in Charleston)

Hey, Parker, don't feel alone, I suspect to these types us Roman
Catholics aren't much better. My husband has a huge collection of the
little booklets some fundamentalist sect or other gives out exposing the
mind-controlling practices of the Catholic church and how we're all
going to hell. Sigh. At least we can dance there, eh?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 23:49:14 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:49:14 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
Message-ID: <9895pq+4bcb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13940

I've decided to not even pretend to lurk--although I'm on webview, 
I'm back to checking the site daily again.  :)

Might as well try to start a new thread...

This idea came out of a recent offlist discussion (waves at Jim 
Ferer) and from some lay research on the SF subgenre.

Is Harry Potter really a fantasy series?

It's not high fantasy--this milieu is not Middle-Earth, and Harry's 
not the Heir of Shannara.  :-)

It's not urban fantasy--or is it?  Haven't read much in that 
subcategory, I'll admit... anyone familiar with it?

It's not dark fantasy--dark fantasies are Gothic reads like Anne 
Rice's *Vampire Chronicles* and Stephen King's *The Dark Tower* 
series.

And--much to my surprise--it's not even traditional fantasy.

>From what I understand, in traditional fantasy, there is no objective 
Outside.  (The postmodernist thinkers would love 'em.)  No distincion 
is made between the tangible and the psyche. The characters 
themselves may also be representational in nature, such as 
allegorical figures or archetypes.  What occurs in the mind can just 
as easily occur physically, because there is no real difference 
between the two.  (Just like "there is no spoon"... big-ups to all 
the Matrix fans out there.  <g>)

This is what one of my speculative fiction writing references has to 
say re: the use of magic in traditional fantasy:

"The Western version of magic, which goes back centuries, is founded 
on the notion that the whole world exists within the soul of each of 
us.  A magician is simply someone who has the force of will to change 
the part of his or her consciousness that corresponds to an outside 
part of the world.  Changing any given internal object automatically 
assumes that the external, "real" one will be changed with real, 
physical results.  Or, as the sorcerers say, "As above, so below."  

"Most of what passes for fantasy these days is just SF in disguise.  
Adventures told in worlds where the physical laws are different, 
allowing "magic" in one form or another.  But there is still a 
physical world in these stories, and it is still more "real" than 
what goes on in the minds of the characters.  So these tales... are 
still rationalist, materalist fiction--science fiction.

"A lot of "fantasy" stories use what we call the utility theory of 
magic.  In the utility theory, magic is a kind of natural force, like 
magnetic fields, and magicians perform magic by tapping into this 
force.  It's like plugging into a wall socket.  Because this is a 
purely materialist conception (even if the magician shapes the result 
with his mind), we tend to think of these stories as a form of SF, 
rather than truly fantastic."

Perhaps I was the only one intrigued by this reasoning.  But Jim, who 
knows a whole lot more about speculative fiction than I do, quoted 
Arthur C. Clarke on this... something along the lines of extremely 
advanced technologies being indistinguishable from magic.  

And then today while learning about the Carnavon/Carter dig of 
Tutankhmen's tomb, my students and I stumbled upon the subject of 
magic and superstition.  (Of course, some smart-alec fifth grader 
inspired this tangent by mentioning the Curse.)  I took an instant 
poll--do you believe in magic and superstition in real life?  In this 
particular class, all of the students said "no" save one.  As we 
moved on, his tablemates asked him why.

"Because... magic *is* science," he said, as if this was the most 
obvious thing in the world.

Well... is it?

Is Harry Potter a fantasy series... or sci-fi?  Or something else 
altogether?

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar  8 23:49:07 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:49:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A book-banning giggle, this time with site  included...
References: <988q92+bfg1@eGroups.com> <038c01c0a813$eee98420$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <3AA81A72.60FAAC07@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13941

"Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote:

> I think if Satan is laughing about anything to do with the HP books,
> it's the incredible amount of time and energy some Christians are
> wasting on attacking JKR and her work when so many *real* spiritual
> battles are being ignored.

For some reason, this makes me think of that quote from someone--Dave
Barry? I think, along the lines of "If God decides to reveal his truth
to a person on earth, it will not be a televangelist with big hair, and
it will not concern the sexual orientation of a character on a
children's program." [That whole Tinky-Winky (the purple teletubbie) is
gay thing, for those of you with no children]

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Mar  9 00:08:55 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:08:55 -0000
Subject: Godric's Hollow Location
In-Reply-To: <f.10e67708.27d92c0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9896uo+d34n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13942

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., wings909 at a... wrote:
> Does anyone know where the possible location of Godric's Hollow 
is?  I've been going by what little we know from the books, and this 
is just off the top of my head but if Hagrid brought Harry to the 
Dursleys, which we know is in Surrey, and Harry fell asleep flying 
over Bristol, then Godric's Hollow would be where?
> 
> Cheers,
> Paula
> Gryffindor

We don't know at all where Godric's Hollow is, although the fact that 
you mention, that Harry fell asleep over Bristol, has been used 
to "prove" that Godric's Hollow has to be in Wales. That isn't by any 
means proven. In fact, I would argue that it's highly UNlikely that 
Godric's Hollow is in Wales. Here's what we do know:

On the evening of October 31, Voldemort attacked the Potters in 
Godric's Hollow. This was just before midnight. Hagrid arrived 
shortly after the attack and rescued the infant Harry from the ruins 
of the cottage. He also met Sirius Black there and borrowed his 
flying motorcycle. All this happened within a fairly short time of 
midnight, October 31. 

In the next few hours, Hagrid took Harry somewhere. We have no idea 
where he took him and we don't know the speed of a flying motocycle 
so we can't even estimate how FAR he took him. But I think it's 
unlikely that he stayed anywhere near Godric's Hollow, since that was 
1) swarming with Muggles, and 2) the scene of the disappearance of 
Voldemort, which would mean that the Death Eaters were also probably 
all over the place, looking for their master. Hagrid left Harry in 
this place, wherever it is, in the very early morning. Sometime after 
that, but still in the early morning, Hagrid encountered McGonagall. 
Surprisingly, Hagrid told her practically nothing at all about what 
had happened. He didn't tell her that the Potters had been killed, he 
didn't tell her that he had rescued Harry or where he had taken him, 
he basically told her nothing. All he did say was that Dumbledore was 
going to be in some place called Privet Drive at some point that day. 
Hagrid didn't even tell her who lived in Privet Drive or what their 
relationship was to all that was going on. McGonagall goes to Privet 
Drivet at this point as a cat and waits all day on the garden wall.

We don't know where Hagrid went after this. We don't know at what 
point he was given Harry back to carry to Privet Drive. We might 
assume that wherever Harry was, he wasn't with Dumbledore, since 
otherwise Dumbledore wouldn't have needed someone to bring the baby 
to him. However, since Dumbledore obviously apparated into Privet 
Drive, and since it seems unlikely that anyone can carry a baby when 
apparating, and since Hagrid certainly doesn't have a license to 
apparate, Dumbledore might have given Harry to Hagrid for safe 
transport from wherever they were to Privet Drive. 

At any rate, this unidentified place, where Harry spent the day, is 
where Harry and Hagrid were coming from and it is on this trip that 
Harry fell asleep. And since they passed over Bristol on the way from 
there to Surrey, it is logical to assume that Harry spent the day 
somewhere 1) in Wales, and 2) NOT Godric's Hollow. So Godric's Hollow 
is very likely NOT in Wales at all; Wales would be a place that is a 
safe distance AWAY from Godric's Hollow, which would be a dangerous 
place to be on that day, especially for Harry Potter.

That brings us to Privet Drive. It is almost midnight when Dumbledore 
finally appears, and Hagrid arrives soon after. It is 24 hours since 
the attack in Godric's Hollow and Harry and Hagrid have traveled a 
good many kilometers in between.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon






From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 00:18:12 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:18:12 -0000
Subject: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
In-Reply-To: <B6CD8FCA.D940%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9897g4+lnng@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13943

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> John Walton wrote:
It's amusing in that it's actually a
> > real "Ban Potter Books" site, down to the lovely hi-tech "King 
Jesus"
> > background and the Satan-in-every-other-sentence drivel it spouts.

And yet...the site owner seems to posess a very nice, clothbound, UK 
deluxe edition PS. I wonder how much he'll sell it for (races 
to "send email" button)
 




From vderark at bccs.org  Fri Mar  9 00:28:39 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:28:39 -0000
Subject: Comic Relief books - already available in South Wales!
In-Reply-To: <9893f4+n0ob@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98983n+hici@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13944


> It seems she bought them at a bookshop in a certain out-of-town 
> shopping centre near Bridgend, South Wales earlier this week. They 
> were just sitting on the counter, apparently!

Well, here in Grand Rapids, Michigan, none of the bookstores will be 
selling the books until Monday. They are not allowed to, although 
they do have them in the back. I told them I would be happy to buy 
them early if they cared to slit open one of the boxes, but no dice. 
The clerks were all just about as eager as I was to read them, but 
they said they were required to wait until Monday.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From paxber at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 01:04:28 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 01:04:28 -0000
Subject: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
In-Reply-To: <9897g4+lnng@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <989a6s+sh1j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13945


That bit about S as a symbol of Satanism is reminiscent of "If the 
King's English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!" 
(I could go find the etymologic roots of "Satan" -- certainly not 
originally in English or in any language using the Roman alphabet -- 
but that *would* be OT).

It is clear from the siet that its author has not actually read the 
HP books. I know there are some people who have read the books and 
still disapprove of them on religious grounds, but have noticed that 
those people tend to sound a lot less hysterical and a lot more 
logical (they also tend not to advocate keeping the books away from 
*other* people's children).

I have found it interesting to see the range of obsessed Harry-ites 
posting here, from pagan to evangelical Christian. I say again, it is 
the mark of a good writer to speak to a range of readers and let each 
one see a slightly different, but still beautiful, color from the 
prism.

APaula2








From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Fri Mar  9 01:05:55 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 01:05:55 -0000
Subject: Comic Relief books - already available in South Wales!
In-Reply-To: <9893f4+n0ob@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <989a9j+gip8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13946

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gaynor Thomas" <gaynor at c...> wrote:
> I have been reading with interest the previews for the Comic Relief 
> books i.e. Quidditch through the Ages and Fantastic Beasts and 
Where 
> to Find Them. I thought they weren't available until March 12th.
> 
> However, I've just been to visit my friend Cath (who also lurks on 
> this list) and was astounded to find both books on the shelf in her 
> toilet!
> 
> It seems she bought them at a bookshop in a certain out-of-town 
> shopping centre near Bridgend, South Wales earlier this week. They 
> were just sitting on the counter, apparently!

Dammit, that's about 6 miles from my parents house. Why do I have to 
be in uni now?!

Dai




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 01:12:14 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 01:12:14 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
In-Reply-To: <9895pq+4bcb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <989ale+tuo3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13947

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:

> Might as well try to start a new thread...
>

Good thread. :) Now this is something we non-shippers can sink our 
teeth into. 

> 
> Is Harry Potter really a fantasy series?

I'd say yes, partially. Not pure fantasy though. Hybrid with school 
story genre, which means it wants to deliver the elements that make 
that genre popular too. (Nostalgia, commitment to a certain realism, 
coming-of-age-tale, etc.)

<snip>
> 
> "Most of what passes for fantasy these days is just SF in 
disguise.  
> Adventures told in worlds where the physical laws are different, 
> allowing "magic" in one form or another.  But there is still a 
> physical world in these stories, and it is still more "real" than 
> what goes on in the minds of the characters.  So these tales... are 
> still rationalist, materalist fiction--science fiction.

Yes. I'd agree that if you use this definition, then the HP books are 
not pure fantasy, although, as above, I would not classify them as 
so. There tends to be a lot of emphasis on realism in the books. In 
fact, I guess you could also make them all psionists/espers, and the 
essential idea of the books would still kind of work. Also, given 
that magical power in general is an inborn capacity, this would make 
the HP wizards more like the people with special powers one sees in 
so often in sci-fi. 

> 
> "A lot of "fantasy" stories use what we call the utility theory of 
> magic.  In the utility theory, magic is a kind of natural force, 
like 
> magnetic fields, and magicians perform magic by tapping into this 
> force.  It's like plugging into a wall socket.  Because this is a 
> purely materialist conception (even if the magician shapes the 
result 
> with his mind), we tend to think of these stories as a form of SF, 
> rather than truly fantastic."
> 

Hmmm. This is very interesting....the pure magic thing seems to be 
quasi-mystical. Who is this writer? IIRC, most magical systems in the 
stuff I've read follow a more "utility theory" model. Some turn 
magicians into druids, getting their power from nature, or priests, 
from a god. I had thought that most people currently were jettisoning 
the distinction between fantasy and sci-fi in favor of putting it all 
under the "speculative fiction" catagory. 

BTW, I was a bit confused by the description of pure fantasy. Could 
someone just give a quick example of what books/series have this 
depiction of magic? And what is the exact difference between 
traditional and high fantasy? 

Going back to HP... JKR never really outlines a theory of magic. She 
doesn't really explain why some people are muggles and why some are 
wizards, doesn't explain the origin of their powers or why magic 
works, and doesn't come up with a kind of mythic framework to explain 
it all. (The books seem to have a very realistic, materialist-in-a-
non-pejorative-way feel, IMHO). These are not meant to be criticisms, 
but merely reflections on how it might be difficult to really 
classify the books given the lack of magic detail to focus on. 

Well, maybe because Harry will be going to some new magic realm in 
book five, we'll get more info on the HP universe. 

Charmian the long-winded. 




From yyhgnumberonejgn at aol.com  Fri Mar  9 01:17:40 2001
From: yyhgnumberonejgn at aol.com (yyhgnumberonejgn at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:17:40 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Request for information
Message-ID: <c1.c449660.27d98934@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13948

<<I've tried to search but can't find the reference to the chat where JKR 
made the famous (and contentious) statement about there being "something 
between Ron and Hermione". Could someone kindly direct me to it?>>

It was a Barnes & Noble.com chat.
Here is a transcript, although it has no date on it.
www.hpnetwork.f2s.com/jkrowling/jkrbnchat.html
It says:
Question: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione 
during the last half of Goblet of Fire? I love your books, by the way, and 
two of them I've read straight through cover to cover in under 24 hours.
JKR: Well done on the reading speed! Yes, something's "going on," but Ron 
doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 02:06:53 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:06:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
References: <9897g4+lnng@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002601c0a83d$9cfef580$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13949

Satan must be on vacation.
I was bored at work before and was rereading Sorcerer's Stone, and lo and behold:

"And you're not sitting with the prefects today, either," said George.  "Christmas is a time for family."

Yup.  Can really see Satan's influence there...

Abbie
starling823 at yahoo.com

"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nlpnt at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, 08 March, 2001 7:18 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
  > John Walton wrote:
  It's amusing in that it's actually a
  > > real "Ban Potter Books" site, down to the lovely hi-tech "King 
  Jesus"
  > > background and the Satan-in-every-other-sentence drivel it spouts.

  And yet...the site owner seems to posess a very nice, clothbound, UK 
  deluxe edition PS. I wonder how much he'll sell it for (races 
  to "send email" button)



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Fri Mar  9 02:14:22 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 9 Mar 2001 02:14:22 -0000
Subject: Poll results for HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <984104062.399.27741.s4@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13950


The following HPforGrownups poll is now closed.  Here are the 
final results: 


POLL QUESTION: What type of shipper are you? If that's 
to hard to decide then what's your 
favourite ship?  

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Harry-Hermione, 27 votes, 12.98%  
- Harry-Ron, 5 votes, 2.40%  
- Harry-Cho, 4 votes, 1.92%  
- Harry-Parvati, 0 votes, 0.00%  
- Harry-Hedwig, 2 votes, 0.96%  
- Harry-Ginny, 15 votes, 7.21%  
- Harry-other, 6 votes, 2.88%  
- Ron-Hermione, 43 votes, 20.67%  
- Ron-Padma, 0 votes, 0.00%  
- Ron-Fluer, 0 votes, 0.00%  
- Ron-other, 4 votes, 1.92%  
- Hermione-Neville, 0 votes, 0.00%  
- Hermione-Krum, 2 votes, 0.96%  
- Hermione-other, 2 votes, 0.96%  
- Draco-Pansy, 3 votes, 1.44%  
- Draco-Ginny, 12 votes, 5.77%  
- Sirius-yourself, 19 votes, 9.13%  
- Sirius-Lupin, 17 votes, 8.17%  
- Sirius-Mcgonagall, 0 votes, 0.00%  
- Dumbledore-Madam Pomfrey, 1 votes, 0.48%  
- Other teacher- other partner, 3 votes, 1.44%  
- Lupin-Mcgonagall, 0 votes, 0.00%  
- Mcgonagall-other, 1 votes, 0.48%  
- Fred-Angelina, 31 votes, 14.90%  
- Other, 11 votes, 5.29%  



For more information about this group, please visit 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups 

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/

 







From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar  9 02:17:14 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:17:14 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Various Stuff
References: <c1.c449660.27d98934@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AA83D29.6CE8ECDB@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13951

Hi --

I'm just going to reply to various things that have been raised today by
different folks.

yyhgnumberonejgn at aol.com wrote:

> Naama asked: <<I've tried to search but can't find the reference to
> the chat where JKR made the famous (and contentious) statement about
> there being "something between Ron and Hermione". Could someone kindly
> direct me to it?>>
>
> It was a Barnes & Noble.com chat. Here is a transcript, although it
> has no date on it. www.hpnetwork.f2s.com/jkrowling/jkrbnchat.html
> It says:
> Question: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and
> Hermione during the last half of Goblet of Fire? I love your books, by
> the way, and two of them I've read straight through cover to cover in
> under 24 hours.
> JKR: Well done on the reading speed! Yes, something's "going on," but
> Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy.

If this is an accurate transcript, then the whole debate over the
meaning of the word "between" was rather pointless, wasn't it?  <g>

I searched the official bn site, and they haven't posted the chat from
last October (amazingly!).

Heather wrote:

> People on this list are arguing over shipping. I don't think we are
> ever going to convince one another, and the debates are ever more
> repetitive and convoluted. People who won't discuss again the gleam
> in Dumbledore's eye - and are sometimes a bit rude to newbies who
> ask "the same old questions" - will repeat their interpretation of a
> peck on the cheek umpteen times. That's a bit contradictory, isn't it?
>
I remain hopeful that the FAQs will reduce the need for rehashing a
number of subjects, including the gleam in Dumbledore's eye, the wand
order "mistake," and "what is FITD?"

However, I will point out that a number of us on different ships do
enjoy the debates, and if there are folks out there who want to rehash
this stuff every single day, I don't know why it should be objectionable
to those who wish to avoid it.  95% of the shipping posts in the last
2.5 days have subject headings with the acronym "SHIP" so .... I guess
I'm just bewildered why anyone would care whether we continue the
discussions or not.

I might not have jumped into this latest round of discussions myself but
for the fact that Firoza's initial post on the topic (a) contained
erroneous assumptions about the position of the H/H shippers and so had
flawed logical reasoning, and (b) contained a reference to my name.

Thanks to Bbennett for her sane, reasoned comments -- as always.  :--)
Each side has valid points to make, and it's nice when we can
respectfully listen to one another.  She said:

> To emphasize a point, however, I've seen posters deliberately misquote or not-so-subtly suggest
> other posters lack intelligence because they overlook obvious" material. This makes the original poster feel angry
> and foolish and the responding poster look like they can't defend
> their theories without resorting to nastiness. Re-read before you hit
> send.
>
This is excellent advice!  I would also add: please don't personalize
your comments.  I'll be honest that I'm really really tired of seeing my
name pop up in less than complimentary ways in some shipping posts.  I'm
reasonably thick-skinned, but it sometimes has hurt my feelings to be
honest.  Try putting yourself in the other person's shoes before you
make personal jabs.  It's a matter of netiquette and just good manners.

On a more light-hearted note:

> Sue said: > I also feel like I should defend H/G a little.  I was a Ginny in
> high  school...I guess since  I never got noticed, deep down inside I
> hope she will.  Does that make  any sense?  Seriously, I'm not even
> sure if it makes sence to me:)
>
> Cassie replied: That seems like a defense of Ginny but...I'm not sure how it's a
> defense of H/G. My argument against H/G has always been that Ginny
> isn't a very developed character. If Jo develops her in an
> interesting way, than I'd be open to H/G. (And that would clear up
> Hermione for Draco. Whee! And Ron can have the giant squid.)
>
LOL about Ron & the giant squid Cassie!  :--)  I too would be open to
H/G *if* Ginny were at all developed as a character.  Prior to GoF, lots
of us said that JKR pretty much needed to develop her much more fully in
GoF if she was to be a valid love interest for the hero.  That didn't
happen at all.  Now, I suppose it's possible that she could *still* do
that in Book 5, but I can't help wondering if there will still be people
saying, "Well, as long as she develops Ginny more fully early enough in
Book 7, there could still be H/G."  <vbg>  I *love* fanon Ginny.  I
think her character has lots of potential, and if JKR chooses to flesh
her out more, then I could maybe get behind it.  Possibly.  Nah.  I'd
probably always favor H/H ... but I wouldn't *hate* H/G if Ginny had a
personality.  Right now though -- she's too blah for my taste.

On the glares thing -- switching gears.

I agree with Amy Z that not all glares are created equal.  *But,* I
don't think that it's valid to dismiss the possibilities that her sparks
with Draco might not be just as indicative of possible romance as her
fights with Ron.  Maybe I'm just influenced by Heidi's excellent
back-story "Surfeit of Curses."  Oh well.  Ruined by fanfic I am I
suppose.

Naama wrote:

> Draco and Hermione seem to you like the typical bickering
> romantic comedy couple?! I'm sorry, but I haven't seen many romantic
> comedies where the couple are a Ku-Klux-Klan man and a black woman!
> Which is essentialy what a Draco-Hermione romance would be. That kind
> of stuff does not easily lend itself either to comedy or to romance
> (well, maybe very heavy tragedy). Draco and Hermione are *real*
> enemies in a good vs. evil fight. What they have between them is real
> bad blood, not "sparks".
>
I'm not a movie buff by any means.  But, I'm confident that there must
be a number of "enemies" turning into lovers type movies out there.  The
only one that comes readily to mind is "You've Got Mail."  I realize
that your point is that business enemies like depicted in "You've Got
Mail" present quite a different scenario than something more
fundamentally insidious.

I realize it's anathema to many R/H types to have the R/H bickering
compared with the D/He bickering.  But, a number of people can make
strong cases for the comparison.  Since I don't really see bickering &
fighting as a sound basis for any romantic relationship, I'm probably
not the best person to defend that case.  But, I do see the inherent
logic there.

If you're not one of the anti-fanfic types and you haven't read it, give
Heidi's "Surfeit of Curses" a whirl.  It's a really really interesting
interpretation of a possible D/He relationship of sorts (not necessarily
romantic as yet).

Penny






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Fri Mar  9 02:46:23 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:46:23 EST
Subject: SHIP:  Answering Ebony's Question (some mention of FF)
Message-ID: <dc.3564de7.27d99dff@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13952

Hi Ebony and All,

Ebony asks:

<<Kathy and Elizabeth, I'm intrigued... can you really say that H/H was a 
real preference for you?  Or were you as disquieted on the SS H/H as I was on 
the Good Ship R/H?>>

And I respond -

After reading GoF I fell in the "think canon is going R/H, but just really 
don't care" category.  Ships were a distraction to me at that point.  I was 
subsequently persuaded to board the H/H ship for a few months after reading a 
fanfic.  As I continued to read that particular fic and others like it, I 
most definitely did become disquieted, as I realized that I was not on what I 
would consider a true H/H ship at all and, therefore, jumped ship.  
Fortunately, there was an innertube floating below to catch me!

So, in answer to your excellent question: no, I was not a true H/H shipper, 
assuming that the Hermione in question is actually canon Hermione.  I do not 
consider canon Hermione and the fanfic Hermione I met the same person at all. 
 As I have stated previously, I do not identify at all with canon Hermione, 
nor do I particularly care for her.  The part of GoF in which Harry spends 
considerable time alone with Hermione is my model for a hypothetical 
long-term H/H ship and it is so very depressing to me that I almost quit 
reading GoF during it.  I was extremely thankful when Harry and his Wheezey 
got back together!

That was my personal experience with shipping.  I'm sure there are lots and 
lots of different povs out there, all equally valid.

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~



From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  9 02:58:15 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (Morsus Crustum)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 18:58:15 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Answering Ebony's Question (some mention of FF)
Message-ID: <F135XoZl0fqWcH8A1aW0000355b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13953



Ebony wrote:
<<Kathy and Elizabeth, I'm intrigued... can you really say that H/H was a
real preference for you?  Or were you as disquieted on the SS H/H as I was 
on
the Good Ship R/H?>>

*glances back and forth* Is this OT? Because I thought I read somewhere that 
it was. Oh, well, I'll just hope to god that it isn't. >_<

I started out as a H/H shipper. Then I switched over to R/Hr. I was a 
whole-hearted H/H shipper for a while. I honestly believed it. And then I 
started rereading the books, and...well, I just started looking at it in a 
different way, and got sucked into the R/H way of thinking.
IMO, there is text in cannon that can support both - it just depends on how 
you look at it. For instance, the PS/SS hug can be looked at as Hermione 
showing more-than-friendly affection towards Harry. Or it can be looked at 
as a nothing-more-than-friendly gesture. Same with Hermione glaring at 
Fleur... At this point, there are no wrong answers. Not even the Ron/Squid 
shippers. (God, I love that squid...)

MC
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From margdean at erols.com  Fri Mar  9 03:15:42 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:15:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
References: <989ale+tuo3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA84ADE.F47EBE0C@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13954

What a fascinating subject!

Just for the sake of discussion, here's a different set of
criteria.  I read an article once written about ELFQUEST, another
favorite series of mine (at least in its original incarnation),
which described EQ as having a fantasy setting but a
science-fiction worldview.  By this the author meant,
essentially, that EQ was more morally ambiguous than classic
fantasy.

In classic fantasy, good and evil are pretty well polarized.  The
=characters= may have elements of both (if they're going to be
interesting at all), but it's still fairly easy to distinguish
Good-with-a-capital-G from Evil-with-a-capital-E.

Science fiction, OTOH, more often deals with moral ambiguities,
characters and groups with different definitions of "good" coming
into conflict, "it all depends on your point of view," etc.

(And I should say straight out that the above characterizations
are definitions, not value judgments!  I don't personally think
that either style is inherently "better."  They are simply very
different in tone and "feel.")

Using this definition, I think the Harry Potter books sit pretty
firmly in the classic fantasy camp, despite their
slightly-altered-today's-world setting, the fact that the magic
is portrayed as a counterpart to technology in being morally
neutral in itself (as far as I can make out, the "Dark Arts"
spells are mainly classified that way because they have very
limited, if any, "good" uses), etc.  It's fairly obvious where
the lines are drawn between the Good Guys and the Bad Guys, and
which is which -- even if some characters straddle the lines.

Comments on this?


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 03:21:58 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 03:21:58 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Various Stuff
In-Reply-To: <3AA83D29.6CE8ECDB@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <989i8m+qp82@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13955

More shipping stuff...yeah. Several of you mentioned shipping post 
that were not interesting and had nothing new to offer, not to 
mention contradicting themselves...I now have this great fear that 
you're talking about mine. I TRIED really hard to be original, 
honest. But it does get redundant. No offence anyone, but we all 
(myself included) should try to refrain from shipping if all we can 
do is make biting comments at other people's comments and yet not add 
anything new to the discussion. Maybe we will find out something to 
use in the shipping debates from the schoolbooks, but I doubt it. 
(Are there going to be sidenotes written by Harry et al in the 
margins? If so then maybe they're like my friends and I and write 
notes about who they like and such in the margins of old 
textbooks...I'm thinking back to the sixth grade, I was twelve) Erm 
anyway we wont really have any good "ammunition" until book five 
comes out. Maybe we could negotiate a ceasfire. Anyone?

Penny wrote:
"LOL about Ron & the giant squid Cassie!  :--)  I too would be open to
H/G *if* Ginny were at all developed as a character.  Prior to GoF, 
lots of us said that JKR pretty much needed to develop her much more 
fully in GoF if she was to be a valid love interest for the hero.  
That didn't happen at all.  Now, I suppose it's possible that she 
could *still* do that in Book 5, but I can't help wondering if there 
will still be people saying, "Well, as long as she develops Ginny 
more fully early enough in Book 7, there could still be H/G."  <vbg>  
I *love* fanon Ginny.  I think her character has lots of potential, 
and if JKR chooses to flesh her out more, then I could maybe get 
behind it.  Possibly.  Nah.  I'd probably always favor H/H ... but I 
wouldn't *hate* H/G if Ginny had a personality.  Right now though --
she's too blah for my taste."

--I with you Penny. I don't see H/G in the canon right now. (What can 
I say, I'm H/H?) I think that Harry Ginny without major 
characterization of Ginny would be a cop out on Jo's side (not to 
mention unbelievable). If I could see Ginny as a real person, and not 
just Ron's giggling younger sister then H/G might be at least 
believable. The only thing is that it would (coupled with R/H) almost 
certainly lead to OBHWF *shudders at the thought*. Needless to say 
OBHWF is way to cliche for me and hopefully for Jo as well (Yes I 
know HGTG is also a cliche. I also know there are way Jo could un-
cliche both scenarios. Not sure what they are but I'm sure Jo could 
do it!).

Penny also wrote:
"On the glares thing -- switching gears.
I agree with Amy Z that not all glares are created equal.  *But,* I
don't think that it's valid to dismiss the possibilities that her 
sparks with Draco might not be just as indicative of possible romance 
as her fights with Ron.  Maybe I'm just influenced by Heidi's 
excellent> back-story "Surfeit of Curses."  Oh well.  Ruined by 
fanfic I am I suppose."

--I don't think that Hermione's glaring looks at Draco have anything 
to do with attraction. Unless you're saying that Hermione sees that 
Draco has more potential than to turn into the Voldemort-groveling 
racist bigot that his father is. I could see that. ("Why can't you be 
what you have the potential to be Draco?") I also don't think that 
Hermione's glares at Ron mean attraction to him either. I think 
perhaps Hermione just glares a lot.

Penny wrote:
"I realize it's anathema to many R/H types to have the R/H bickering
compared with the D/He bickering.  But, a number of people can make
strong cases for the comparison.  Since I don't really see bickering &
fighting as a sound basis for any romantic relationship, I'm probably
not the best person to defend that case.  But, I do see the inherent
logic there."

--I'm with Penny on this. It goes back to the whole "How do you view 
relationships" thread. I could go on and on, and garner plenty of 
personal examples but I'll leave it at this. I have a female friend 
and we can flirt, but I don't have that emotional spark that comes 
from having a heart-to-heart with someone. Ok, that's not the same 
thing but it's the best way I can back up my opinon. 

Neither [ship] is wrong, or right for that matter right. It all 
depends on how you look at it. Lets all be friends (these are 
friendly waters mates!) Think of the glare Hermione would give us if 
she saw how we are bickering.

Scott






From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 03:27:51 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 03:27:51 -0000
Subject: SHIP:Shipping Poll
Message-ID: <989ijn+au7m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13956

I concluded the shipping poll today. I hope that everyone had a 
chance to vote. The result are overwhelmingly R/H. Which isn't all 
that suprising, but still furthers the (now dead?) arguement that H/H 
shippers aren't greater in number if not more vocal. I'd say we're 
both very vocal about our views.

Scott




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 04:00:30 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 04:00:30 -0000
Subject: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
In-Reply-To: <B6CD8FCA.D940%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <989kgu+lobg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13957

Ugh. That site, while amusing, is also embarassing. That type of site 
drives me nuts -- it's so ridiculous. The only one of the books that 
I can see any reasonable Christian -- or person of any religion -- 
even remotely having a problem with is GoF. My dad read it and had 
little twinge of uncomfortableness because he said that the Wormtail-
hand, Flesh-Blood-Bone thing had a few resonances of sacrifice.

Oh well. It's the bad guys, right? The good guys NEVER do anything 
like that (all I thought about it was, "Good grief, that's creepy and 
I wish I hadn't read it at midnight in a nearly-empty house on a half-
deserted lake" -- no joke, that's really where I read it, and boy, 
did I regret i!). And frankly, if kids had a little power (as this 
guy seemed so dead set against), the world might be a better place. 
Milk and cookies and an afternoon nap for everyone, and we'd all be a 
lot happier.

Stacy (who had no idea that using her mind's eye to picture something 
and then write about it was against Christianity . . .)




From bohners at pobox.com  Fri Mar  9 04:15:35 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 23:15:35 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
References: <989kgu+lobg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <04c201c0a84f$aa04d4e0$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 13958

> Stacy (who had no idea that using her mind's eye to picture something 
> and then write about it was against Christianity . . .)

As a Christian writer who does that incessantly, neither did I.  :)
--
The Marauder's Map
rebeccaj at pobox.com




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 04:26:43 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 04:26:43 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
In-Reply-To: <9895pq+4bcb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <989m23+imtd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13959

Ebony asked:
"Is Harry Potter really a fantasy series?"

--In a sense it is. I have a mental image of Fantasy and Sci-Fi 
being  "traditional" magic and future star-ship alien stuff 
respectively. However that is a not the best view, and is, I'll admit 
rather limiting. In the sense of Fantasy that you gave I'd classify 
Harry Potter as Sci-Fi. After all it is  connected with our world and 
the magic does have that seperate entity that people draw from type 
effect. I think that real magic is much like the magic in that 
description of fantasy in that it comes from us (see my OT-chatter 
post...)

I think HP is some of both, and therefore it is in another category 
altogether. 

Scott
______________________________________________________________________

"I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in 
fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your 
mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the 
here and now?  Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." 
- John Lennon 





From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar  9 04:30:17 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 23:30:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A book-banning giggle, this time with site included...
In-Reply-To: <04c201c0a84f$aa04d4e0$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <MABBJHGODKMAPNGJPPHEOEHACAAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13960

This is from witchwanda2002 and I would like to respond to this about the
book banning. I would have done this at the to site but I'm waiting for my
membership to be approved for that group and also the sister site of
HPFGUPS. My Aunt who lives in San Antoino,Texas sent me a very long letter
from a Mr. Williams. He is very against anything to do with HP books and
thinks JKRowlings needs long praying over her LOST SOUL! I sent my Aunt a HP
OWL Postcard and the feedback was this letter. This Williams wants you to
believe that all children reading these books will be devil worshipers!
There will always be a group out there to reject something. If he feels that
way he would have to ban just about all books out there. Even classics have
a witch or fairy or something magical in there. Heck, he probably wouldn't
like Looney Toons. Just wanted to add my thoughts. If you think about it, it
reminds me of the book burnings of World War Two! Hopefully my next OT post
will be where it should be. WitchWanda2002 in Revere,Ma USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner [mailto:bohners at pobox.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 11:16 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: A book-banning giggle, this time with
site included...


> Stacy (who had no idea that using her mind's eye to picture something
> and then write about it was against Christianity . . .)

As a Christian writer who does that incessantly, neither did I.  :)
--
The Marauder's Map
rebeccaj at pobox.com


_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join
now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





From kathleen at carr.org  Fri Mar  9 03:16:44 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:16:44 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: How Shippers Come to Be
Message-ID: <200103090438.f294cu609609@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 13961

MC/Ginny Love wrote:
>At this point, everyone is against me. The H/Hers know I'm
>not one of them, and the R/Hers are acting like I'm from Mars. I'm one of
>you, damn it!

Well, of course you are!  You are our excellent Marketing Director.  We'd 
never throw you to the sharks, don't worry.

*Turns to list*  See, there is differing interpretation represented on the 
Good Ship R/H.  Told ya so.

MC/Ginny LOve
>I am not saying that R/Hers don't read the books with the "heightened
>perception and advanced reasoning as H/H-ers". At all. God, you must have *
>really * been pissed at the 'cool kid' analogy.

I didn't mean to imply that that's necessarily what you were saying.  What I 
was trying to say is: That attitude is one I have seen implied fairly 
consistently and your statement seemed to reflect it.  Your statement just 
brought my irritation with it to the surface.

MC/Ginny Love:
>Before GoF, we don't see any R/H at all, not even Ron unknowingly mooning
>after Hermione.

Actually, I disagree with this.  True, we don't see any *obvious* signs of 
anyone mooning over anyone else, but I think that there is plenty of building 
of R/H tension, right from the very first time they meet.  And I was sure by 
CoS that Ron liked Hermione.  There are a lot of clues, I think.  But I think 
they've been listed before, so I won't go into that now unless someone is 
dying to argue it.

All right, I'll stop there, because I still have bunches more messages to wade 
through and I'm sure lots of fascinating replies to this thread have already 
been posted.

>MC, aka Ginny Love, who is a R/H shipper, wheather her fellow shipmates like
>it or not. Grrrr....

We do like it!  I'm sorry if you took offense to my original post.  I was 
rather...er, worked up...about some of the other messages that came through 
yesterday, so I may not have been as pleasant and bubbly as usual <g>.

Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee




From whimzical at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 05:21:32 2001
From: whimzical at yahoo.com (whimzical at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 05:21:32 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
In-Reply-To: <9895pq+4bcb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <989p8s+p1u2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13962

-> 
> "Because... magic *is* science," he said, as if this was the most 
> obvious thing in the world.
> 
> Well... is it?
> 
> UGH! I shudder at the thought. It seems like people nowadays call 
*everything* a science. What could be less scientific (read mundane) 
than magic? How could there be scientific evidence to support why 
some people have certain powers and others don't? Where does it come 
from? To me, magic is an art. It is unique to each person and can be 
expressed in a large variety of creative ways.




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar  9 06:14:46 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 00:14:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rules? We don't need no stinking rules! What other lists?
References: <984086725.1147.26303.jb@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <007e01c0a860$3ec1f800$0714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 13963

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Movie Trailer/trailer.html 
  Uploaded by : natabat at crosswinds.net 
  Description : List of various locations to d/l the trailer. 

Come on, people ... these behind the scenes people, who spend their time, talent, and efforts to give us all these opportunities to share our HP thoughts, feelings, ideas etc. are probably collectively banging their heads against their monitors.

It is my understanding that we are supposed to put:

HP stuff on the HPforGrownups website or mailing list.
NON HP stuff on the HPFGU-OTChatter website or mailing list
Announcements on the HPFGU-Announcements website or mailing list

Or did I misunderstand something along the way? (Is it because I am blonde, or from Iowa, or older than dos?)

I went  to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements
Joining was as easy as it was to join the main HPforGrownups list 

I went  to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
Joining this was also as easy.... yada yada

There are 1019 people on the HPforGrownups mailing list.
There are only 107 people on the HPFGU-OTChatter mailing list.
There are only 103 people on the HPFGU-Announcements list.

Unless you never plan to ever have anything to say other than what ties to Harry Potter ... and you never plan to add to the fantastic library of files or view any of the totally neat stuff there (you could spend a week there getting your HP cravings filled) ... then you might want to think about  to joining these lists. 

If the rules are enforced ... you may find yourself missing out on a lot of thought provoking or fun poking stuff.

Do not pass Godrick's Hollow.
Do not collect 200 sickles.
Go directly to join.

BTW ... the first 200 to join get an autographed picture of Neil in his hairnet and bunny slippers. 
Doreen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From natabat at crosswinds.net  Fri Mar  9 06:31:45 2001
From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:31:45 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rules? We don't need no stinking rules! What other lists?
References: <984086725.1147.26303.jb@yahoogroups.com> <007e01c0a860$3ec1f800$0714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <000701c0a862$a0ecaaa0$0201a8c0@hp>

No: HPFGUIDX 13964

Although I thought about not doing so, I put an announcement in because
someone did ask me to upload the list to the files area. I suppose it would
have been better to just reply to the e-mail saying I had done so.

Terribly sorry. Won't ever happen again, I promise!
Natalie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doreen" <nera at rconnect.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Rules? We don't need no stinking rules! What
other lists?



> Come on, people ... these behind the scenes people, who spend their time,
talent, and efforts to give us all these opportunities to share our HP
thoughts, feelings, ideas etc. are probably collectively banging their heads
against their monitors.
>
> It is my understanding that we are supposed to put:
>
> HP stuff on the HPforGrownups website or mailing list.
> NON HP stuff on the HPFGU-OTChatter website or mailing list
> Announcements on the HPFGU-Announcements website or mailing list

<snip the admittedly amusing part where I get yelled at <g>>




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Mar  9 06:42:40 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 06:42:40 -0000
Subject: A book-banning giggle, this time with site  included...
In-Reply-To: <3AA81A72.60FAAC07@texas.net>
Message-ID: <989u10+q7ua@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13965

Amanda says:

> For some reason, this makes me think of that quote from someone--
Dave
> Barry? I think, along the lines of [That whole Tinky-Winky (the 
purple teletubbie) is
> gay thing, for those of you with no children]
> "If God decides to reveal his truth
> to a person on earth, it will not be a televangelist with big hair, 
and
> it will not concern the sexual orientation of a character on a
> children's program." 

Nitpicker Alert!

I think you are mixing 2 quotes.  I just happen to have here a gen-u-
ine list o Dave Barry quotes [rustles papers] and he said:

"If there really is a God who created the entire universe with all of 
its glories, and He decides to deliver a message to humanity, He WILL 
NOT use, as His messenger, a person on cable TV with a bad hairstyle."

-- Dave Barry, # 16 of "Sixteen Things That Took Me 50 Years to 
Learn", from Dave Barry Turns 50

Although Dave B. as well as many others have commented on the idiocy 
of religious types who worry about things like Tinky-Winkys sexual 
orientation.

However, I feel that Amanda and I, in a genuine bipartisan and 
spiritual effort, should paraphrase Funny Dave and launch this little 
bit of wisdom:

"If there really is a God who created the entire universe with all of 
its glories, and He decides to deliver a message to humanity, He WILL 
NOT use, as His messenger, a person on cable TV with a bad hairstyle, 
and His message WILL NOT concern the sexual orientation of a 
character on a children's program or the fictional exploits of a 
magical character in a children's book."

I mean, really, with all the problems in this world could you imagine 
that if God dropped by Earth he would tell us all not to read Harry 
Potter?

"Listen, my children, thou have sinned.  I dont care that you 
slaughter each other because you dont like the color of other peoples 
skin or their ancestry, or because you want their land or 
possessions, I dont care that women are raped and brutalized, or that 
children are abused, but I really think you should stop reading about 
a school where kids are learning how to make a pineapple tap dance 
across the desk."

I dont trust these anti-Harry Potter morons because although they 
sometimes seem to be able to think for themselves, I cant see where 
they keep their brains.

--Joywitch





From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Mar  9 08:42:15 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:42:15 -0800
Subject: New OT Group - many comments on Voldemort and Lucius - Lack of  Curiousity - Ghosts  
Message-ID: <3AA89766.C3C8E94A@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13966

I last looked at the egroup on Sunday, so tonight I have read through
hundreds and hundreds of posts and I'm still only on 13834 out of 13965
but it's my bedtime and I am So Tired!

I saw the announcements that the Moderators are forcing us into HPfGU-OT
group. I'm not happy about that -- I expect that my responses to chapter
and character summaries will all be banished to the OT group -- but if
the Mod Squad is DEEPLY concerning with reducing the traffic on the main
list, they should exile ALL Harry/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione
shipping to a group of its own. Maybe they'll want to put all shipping
involving Draco there, too, altho' I desperately loved the suggested
quote: "I'm only sleeping with you, Potter, because your hair
complements my coloring, so don't flatter yourself."

Randy's Voldemort sketch asked:
> 1. Why is Lucius Malfoy considered by Voldemort to be a
> better servant than most of the other Death Eaters?

Voldemort treats Lucius as his pet, calling him by first name, giving
him favoritism, and letting him get away with stuff that the other Death
Eaters would be killed for. If he actually BELIEVES that Lucius IS a
better servant, that is simply the result of believing his own
favoritism. I believe that the reason Voldemort fusses over Lucius like
that is because he never got over the social class attitudes of being
Tom Riddle, working class orphan, who snobbishly admires and yearns to
be accepted by the toffs.

There could also be a good bit of personal history between them. Today,
when I was supposed to be working, I was wondering why Department of
Magical Law Enforcement hadn't gone after Tom Riddle for murdering three
Muggles with an Unforgivable Curse. Had he fled the country until he
could come back as Lord Voldemort? To study Dark Arts in the ancient
libraries of Egypt, perhaps?

Then it occurred to me that Malfoy Manor has one hell of a library of
Dark Arts, and Tom Riddle 'earning' that award for Special Services to
the school would catch the attention of members of the Board of
Governors, of which Lucius's father was probably one...

...either of them might have noticed that they both were attracted to
Dark Arts, either of them might have noticed that they both were
attractive, either of them might have made an effort to charm the other
in order to use him for his own purposes, altho' Tom's purposes would
have included access to the Malfoy library, wealth, and protection from
DMLE, while Lucius's father's purpose might have been access to this
boy's large magic power...

.... TMR might have been firmly ensconced in Malfoy Manor before he
murdered his father, and been given an alibi by the Malfoys...

... And I was wondering if, as Lucius grew from baby to young man, Tom
might have found Lucius more sympathico (because more thoroughly evil)
than his father, and helped Lucius murder the senior Malfoy in order to
get his inheritance quicker. If Lucius had an older brother, that
brother would have to be murdered for Lucius to get his inheritance at
all....

Amy Z's sketch of Voldemort said:
> When he used Quirrell's body (1992), had a flat face like a
> snake's, catlike eyes that glow red, slits for nostrils.
> In proto-human form (1994-95): as above, except like a
> child with thin arms and legs; also, hairless, with reddish-black,
> scaly skin
> Post-return to power: extremely pale (13 years out of the sun,
> don't you know); long fingers; tall and skeletally thin.  Features the

> same as in 1993.

Post-return, isn't he still scaly, altho' no longer reddish-black?
Snakes don't really have flat faces, altho' they have non-blinking eyes
which often have odd-shaped pupils. Besides the 'face like a snake', the
scales AND the tall skinniness strike me as serpentine characteristics.
Not only is he a Parselmouth with a pet giant cobra (Nagini), he turned
himself into a snake-man in his quest for immortality.

That's actually logical, as snakes have been traditional symbols of
immortality, because the skin shedding has been mistaken for
rejuvenation or because one can draw a snake swallowing its own tail as
a symbol of eternity. However, it is my strong feeling that, in the
process of becoming an immortal snake-man, he gave up sex, sexual
desire, and sexual organs.

Therefore, if he ever had an affair with Lucius (or with Lucius's
father) as so many fanfics assume, it must have been BEFORE he achieved
his transformation. I can guess that he achieved his transformation only
shortly before he began his Reign of Terror (11 years before Halloween
1981 = 1970).  The far-above H/D quote about their dark and blond
coloring would apply equally to Tom and Lucius. I don't know whether
Lucius's father was as pale as he.

> 1. What is Voldemort's primary motivation?  To live forever?  To rid
> the world of the non-pureblood (I know, he doesn't qualify
> himself--racism knows no logic)?  Sheer lust for power?

He wants to be FEARED by every wizard and witch on Earth: he said so
someplace. He wants to HURT every person who is not one of his special
pets, out of a consuming anger/hatred against all people due to blaming
all people for his own unhappy childhood, and have them know that it is
HE who is hurting them. He LOVES dramatic spectacles, which is what
leads him to do foolish Evil Overlord things. He wants power only as a
means to those ends. He wants immortality only as a means to those ends.
Perhaps he wants to destroy the whole world like Samson pulling down the
pillars of the Philistine temple?

Charmian asked:
> Why are some of the Death Eaters so loyal to him that they'd be
> willing to go to Akzaban for his sake?

I've been wondering that for years. All I've been able to guess is that
he has some powerful charisma, to which people who had an instinct for
followership responded by accepting that the right and proper way of the
world is that they should be utterly loyal to him and sacrifice
themselves for him like he was their daimyo or something, but he should
treat them as expendable. Less than expendable -- to be tortured for
amusement, not just killed to achieve a goal or as deserved punishment.

Gwendolyn Grace wrote:
> I believe Malfoy arranged the whole thing [with the Riddle diary]
> as a political ploy to shoot down the Muggle Protection Act,
> discredit Dumbledore, and possibly get a Headmaster who will
> support banning Muggle-born students again.

I agree that Malfoy's plot was to discredit Dumbledore and replace him
with a more Dark headmaster. Amanda suggested that Malfoy thus plotted
for V's sake, removing V's enemy D, and you may be suggested that Malfoy
thus plotted simply for his own sake. I don't agree that Malfoy's plot
was to shoot down the Muggle Protection Act and discredit Arthur
Weasley...

... because Lucius had brought the diary to Flourish and Blotts before
he knew that any Weasleys or Potters would be there that day. I think he
was just going to slip it into a Hogwarts textbook on the shelves and
let young TMR take over whichever random student bought that book. But
after he had that punch-up with Arthur, he suddenly realized that he
could get back at Arthur by slipping the book to Arthur's daughter. I
think he wasn't even thinking of the Muggle Protection Act at that
moment, just that it would hurt the man he hated when that man's young
daughter was killed by the Basilisk.

Milz wrote:
> If I were told that my parents were magical and that I, as an infant,
> took down the world's greatest villain, I would be very curious about
>  it all.

I think the Dursleys managed to beat the impulse to ask questions out of
him.

Jen Faulkner wrote:
> I doubt [ghosts] have conscious choice over where to haunt, but
> it would probably be the place most significant to them, which might
> or might not be the place they died.

I'm too tired to look up the quote, but IIRC Moaning Myrtle said some
happily nasty reminiscent about having made Olive Hornsby's
post-Hogwarts life a misery to her, until Olive got an MoM restraining
order against Myrtle, after which Myrtle had to haunt at Hogwarts
because no one else was willing to take her.

And it is now an hour after my bedtime! I will suffer terribly tomorrow!

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From NicMitUK at aol.com  Fri Mar  9 09:37:04 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 04:37:04 EST
Subject: Godric's Hollow Location
Message-ID: <6a.bfa4daf.27d9fe40@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13967

<< Does anyone know where the possible location of Godric's Hollow is?  

A while back we had this discussion... can't recall when - but it must be in 
the archives somewhere.

There was speculation (on my part) that the location was in South Wales, and 
a location was found that may be the place Godrics Hollow was based on.

Check the archives for further information - it must be in there somewhere.

Nick.



From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Fri Mar  9 10:13:52 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:13:52 -0000
Subject: Sirius hiding place
Message-ID: <98aad0+pgm0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13968

 In an online chat ms rowling were asked where sirius and buckbek 
headed when escaping from hogwarts. she answered (with the usual 
smiley) "Somewhere nice and warm :)".
 Surely that could have been just a reference to a fireplace and some 
hot chocolate (after a truly hard day). but it could also have been 
mentioned as a hint to the location of sirius hiding place (it would 
have been a la rowling). 
so - it could be located in south, or in some specific place, famous 
for its warmth/heat.

that I had to get out :)  
/jennifer 





From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar  9 11:41:48 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 11:41:48 -0000
Subject: Rules? We don't need no stinking rules! What other lists?
In-Reply-To: <007e01c0a860$3ec1f800$0714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <98afhs+thco@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13969

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:

(Snip)
> > 
> I went  to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
> Joining this was also as easy.... yada yada
> 
> There are 1019 people on the HPforGrownups mailing list.
> There are only 107 people on the HPFGU-OTChatter mailing list.
> There are only 103 people on the HPFGU-Announcements list.
> 
> Unless you never plan to ever have anything to say other than what 
ties to Harry Potter ... and you never plan to add to the fantastic 
library of files or view any of the totally neat stuff there (you 
could spend a week there getting your HP cravings filled) ... then 
you might want to think about  to joining these lists. 
> 
> If the rules are enforced ... you may find yourself missing out on 
a lot of thought provoking or fun poking stuff.
> 
> Do not pass Godrick's Hollow.
> Do not collect 200 sickles.
> Go directly to join.
> 
> BTW ... the first 200 to join get an autographed picture of Neil in 
his hairnet and bunny slippers. 
> Doreen

I'm on both lists--among the first to join, btw.  When can I expect 
my picture?  <vbg>

Parker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Fri Mar  9 11:58:35 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian=20Stub=F8?=)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:58:35 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Portrait photograph of Harry
Message-ID: <20010309115835.29830.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13970

My apologies to those who see this more than one time.  I am in the belief that this is
not off-topic to any of the groups I am posting it too - if I am mistaken, then my
apologies to the relevant mod-squads.

If you go to

http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery23.htm

you will find a large portrait photograph of Daniel Radcliffe as Harry.  Somehow that
picture is just perfectly Harry, IMO.  Something for your desktop wallpapers, perhaps? 
It will work well on an 800x600 screen.  Now, would somebody *please* get that boy a pair
of longer trousers!

Best regards
Christian Stub

______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Organiser sammenkomsten p http://no.invites.yahoo.com



From snowy_owl05 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 12:47:00 2001
From: snowy_owl05 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Claire=20Saunders?=)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 04:47:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Comic Relief Harry Potter Books
In-Reply-To: <984106007.2673.37043.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010309124700.344.qmail@web1801.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13971

Hi everyone

I know I'm very quiet on this list, mostly lurk
watching for all your wonderful opinions on HP. I have
the great luck to be able to write an essay on the
strengths of HP PS/SS for a final year module for my
degree. Your input has been invaluable.

But to the books:

I pre-ordered mine from alphabetstreet several weeks
ago, and to my wonderous amazement I received a large
parcel this morning containing .. yes, you've guessed
it, my copies of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find
Them, and Quidditch through the Ages. I won't give
anything away, but get your hands on them as soon as
you can - they're more than worth it, especially as
the vast majority of what you pay for them goes to
charity.

Oh the temptation to miss my lectures this morning to
read them!!!

Enjoy!
Claire :-)

=====


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Mar  9 12:21:15 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:21:15 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Re: New OT Group/response to Rita and some background
References: <3AA89766.C3C8E94A@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <004001c0a893$70f46e60$b53670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 13972

A tired Rita said:

<<I saw the announcements that the Moderators are forcing us into HPfGU-OT
group. I'm not happy about that -- I expect that my responses to chapter and
character summaries will all be banished to the OT group -- but if the Mod
Squad is DEEPLY concerning with reducing the traffic on the main list, they
should exile ALL Harry/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione
shipping to a group of its own...<snip> >>

Dear Rita - I hope you had a good night's sleep!

GET THIS: NEIL IN SERIOUS MODE

Responses to chapter and character summaries would, by definition, be tied
to canon, so I doubt very much that your wonderfully informative posts would
be banished to OTChatter.   If a thread that started off relating to HP
generated a completely off topic branch, we might step in and suggest that
people move the discussion over to OTChatter, if they hadn't done so
voluntarily.  There are also a few borderline HP topics that we feel are
best posted on the OT list, including many that tend to be short and
personal (e.g. "I took the HP obsessiveness test and I'm 98% obssessed!").
These are listed in the ADMIN posts Penny has been making on a daily basis
and they are outlined in the homepage of the OTChatter club and in the Files
section here (with a link there from the VFAQ, whcih is also in the Files
section, and also at the end of this message).

As for the high traffic on the main list, the moderators' "deep" concern
stems from the deep concern of many of the list members (and we are list
members too, don't forget).  We received comments about the high volume on
the main list and heard useful suggestions on how we might handle this.  We
have discussed the matter at length and invested quite some time in managing
the situation and working on ways to ease the problem.  If anyone feels that
we have been too heavy handed, I would ask them to imagine what the list
would be like if we just folded our hands behind our heads and did nothing.

The problem of list volume was first raised after the Salon/CNN article was
published and we had a massive influx of new members.  As the membership
crept towards and beyond 1000, our aim was to do something that would make a
consistent impact on the the message volume.  Since most themes (such as
shipping) come and go in waves (ahem), it made more sense to remove OT
posts, which are multi-topic and featured more regularly.  The Announcements
list was created to be useful in its own right, but also for those people
who cannot keep up with the volume on the main list, but want to be kept
informed on the major news and events.

Shipping posts seem to be quite a bone of contention here, but this is
partly because relationships between certain book characters have ended up
under the label 'SHIP' and the topic has been somewhat enduring, due to
certain R/H and H/H supporters squaring up to each other (as is their
right).  Repetitive though some of the themes are to *some* of us, most
shipping posts are, undeniably, on topic.  There are other themes that come
and go in waves, such as HP movie discussions, and the best approach to
these seems to be clear labelling in the message headers, so that people can
skip or delete them if they wish.

Since I'm on my soapbox -  without the aid of a hairnet or other
accoutrements, note -  another way in which list members can help out is to
read and observe the ADMIN messages that we post from time to time and pay
attention to reminders on things such as use of correct message headers.
For example, if one wants to skip anything on H/H vs R/H, it's very annoying
if a post is labelled "Re: Digest Number #234".

Finally, new or confused members really should read the VFAQ, not because we
want to drown them in rules and regulations, but because we have spent time
putting together a 'package' of information on very frequently asked
questions.   It's meant to be helpful to you, not have you walking on
eggshells!

Neil (not even trying to be funny this time)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar  9 13:00:36 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 07:00:36 -0600
Subject: Award for Joywitch (was book banning)
References: <989u10+q7ua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA8D3F3.5BC9D4BB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13973

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> I dont trust these anti-Harry Potter morons because although they
> sometimes seem to be able to think for themselves, I cant see where
> they keep their brains.

::gasping with laughter::

MODERATORS AND OTHER ESTEEMED LISTMEMBERS--I hereby nominate Joywitch
for some sort of award for the absolute best, consummate, penultimate,
unsurpassable summation of those who seek to ban, eradicate, or
otherwise denigrate Rowling's work for reasons of its amorality,
Satanism, anti-Christian message, drug message, etc. This was wonderful.
I woke up the baby, I laughed so loud. This woman needs a signed
certificate on her wall from CACKLE or CRUCIO or whatever we decided the
organization should be called!

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar  9 13:52:36 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 13:52:36 -0000
Subject: Portrait photograph of Harry
In-Reply-To: <20010309115835.29830.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <98an74+eleo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13974

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub? <pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:
> My apologies to those who see this more than one time.  I am in the 
belief that this is
> not off-topic to any of the groups I am posting it too - if I am 
mistaken, then my
> apologies to the relevant mod-squads.
> 
> If you go to
> 
> http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery23.htm
> 
> you will find a large portrait photograph of Daniel Radcliffe as 
Harry.  Somehow that
> picture is just perfectly Harry, IMO.  Something for your desktop 
wallpapers, perhaps? 
> It will work well on an 800x600 screen.  Now, would somebody 
*please* get that boy a pair
> of longer trousers!
> 
> Best regards
> Christian Stub?


Thanks, Christian!

It's going on my wall of pictures.  Regarding the trousers--I think 
it's the way he's sitting and they are just pulled up.  (let's hope 
that's the case!)

Peace & Plenty,

Parker
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Organiser sammenkomsten p? http://no.invites.yahoo.com




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Mar  9 13:57:22 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:57:22 -0000
Subject: MOVIE: Re: Portrait photograph of Harry
References: <98an74+eleo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c0a8a0$fcf014c0$573470c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 13975

Christian posted a link to a really nice photo of Dan Radcliffe:

 http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery23.htm

and said: <<Now, would somebody *please* get that boy a pair of longer
trousers!>>

Parker said:

<<Regarding the trousers--I think it's the way he's sitting and they are
just pulled up.  (let's hope that's the case!)>>

I love that picture and the fact that his hair looks quite messy.  On the
subject of the trousers, Harry is supposed to be wearing Dudley's cast-offs
(he buys his robes at Diagon Alley, but wears regular clothes underneath),
so my first thought would be that he would likely be wearing over-large
trousers, perhaps held up with string.  On the other hand, if Petunia had
boiled the trousers to shrink them, they might have ended up too short for
him.  Either way, ill-fitting trousers would probably be the norm.  All in
all, he seems rather better dressed that I would have expected!

Neil
________________________________________

flying_ford_anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm












From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 15:39:39 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:39:39 -0600
Subject: Comments to Neil & Rita about Shippers, and wondering if anyone else agrees with me
References: <3AA89766.C3C8E94A@wicca.net> <004001c0a893$70f46e60$b53670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <009701c0a8af$30a2e960$10ccfea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 13976


Rita,
I also agree with you about the shippers.  I have even set up my email to
"catch" ship headings, and plop them into a folder.  In the beginning, I had
an "auto-delete" message rule, but I lost a few "real" posts too.

It's not that I don't have a preference.  Perhaps, it can be best said that
after almost a year of hearing about it, I'm not wanting to listen to it any
more?

(Hopes that makes sense?)

I second Rita's motion for a SHIP-list.  (Don't know if it works that way,
but it's a start?)

Neil, I do hope you understand?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Ward" <neilward at dircon.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 6:21 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Re: New OT Group/response to Rita and some
background


> A tired Rita said:
>
> <<I saw the announcements that the Moderators are forcing us into HPfGU-OT
> group. I'm not happy about that -- I expect that my responses to chapter
and
> character summaries will all be banished to the OT group -- but if the Mod
> Squad is DEEPLY concerning with reducing the traffic on the main list,
they
> should exile ALL Harry/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione
> shipping to a group of its own...<snip> >>
>
> Dear Rita - I hope you had a good night's sleep!
>
> GET THIS: NEIL IN SERIOUS MODE
>
> Responses to chapter and character summaries would, by definition, be tied
> to canon, so I doubt very much that your wonderfully informative posts
would
> be banished to OTChatter.   If a thread that started off relating to HP
> generated a completely off topic branch, we might step in and suggest that
> people move the discussion over to OTChatter, if they hadn't done so
> voluntarily.  There are also a few borderline HP topics that we feel are
> best posted on the OT list, including many that tend to be short and
> personal (e.g. "I took the HP obsessiveness test and I'm 98% obssessed!").
> These are listed in the ADMIN posts Penny has been making on a daily basis
> and they are outlined in the homepage of the OTChatter club and in the
Files
> section here (with a link there from the VFAQ, whcih is also in the Files
> section, and also at the end of this message).
>
> As for the high traffic on the main list, the moderators' "deep" concern
> stems from the deep concern of many of the list members (and we are list
> members too, don't forget).  We received comments about the high volume on
> the main list and heard useful suggestions on how we might handle this.
We
> have discussed the matter at length and invested quite some time in
managing
> the situation and working on ways to ease the problem.  If anyone feels
that
> we have been too heavy handed, I would ask them to imagine what the list
> would be like if we just folded our hands behind our heads and did
nothing.
>
> The problem of list volume was first raised after the Salon/CNN article
was
> published and we had a massive influx of new members.  As the membership
> crept towards and beyond 1000, our aim was to do something that would make
a
> consistent impact on the the message volume.  Since most themes (such as
> shipping) come and go in waves (ahem), it made more sense to remove OT
> posts, which are multi-topic and featured more regularly.  The
Announcements
> list was created to be useful in its own right, but also for those people
> who cannot keep up with the volume on the main list, but want to be kept
> informed on the major news and events.
>
> Shipping posts seem to be quite a bone of contention here, but this is
> partly because relationships between certain book characters have ended up
> under the label 'SHIP' and the topic has been somewhat enduring, due to
> certain R/H and H/H supporters squaring up to each other (as is their
> right).  Repetitive though some of the themes are to *some* of us, most
> shipping posts are, undeniably, on topic.  There are other themes that
come
> and go in waves, such as HP movie discussions, and the best approach to
> these seems to be clear labelling in the message headers, so that people
can
> skip or delete them if they wish.
>
> Since I'm on my soapbox -  without the aid of a hairnet or other
> accoutrements, note -  another way in which list members can help out is
to
> read and observe the ADMIN messages that we post from time to time and pay
> attention to reminders on things such as use of correct message headers.
> For example, if one wants to skip anything on H/H vs R/H, it's very
annoying
> if a post is labelled "Re: Digest Number #234".
>
> Finally, new or confused members really should read the VFAQ, not because
we
> want to drown them in rules and regulations, but because we have spent
time
> putting together a 'package' of information on very frequently asked
> questions.   It's meant to be helpful to you, not have you walking on
> eggshells!
>
> Neil (not even trying to be funny this time)
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements
>
> _____________________________________
>
> Flying-Ford-Anglia
> Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)
>
> "Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
> was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
> of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]
>
> Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
> to do with this club:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>




From ajpresto at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 15:04:43 2001
From: ajpresto at yahoo.com (Andrew Preston)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:04:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pagans read Potter!
In-Reply-To: <988s4f+tm2v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010309150443.8556.qmail@web124.yahoomail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13977

I've been lurking for a bit, but had to make this comment...

John Walton:

> > Oh, one last thing before I go, and something that's really annoying me
> > recently -- *Pagans, Wiccans and other modern-day Witches don't believe in
> > or worship Satan*. Satan is a Judeo-Christian-Islamic creation and is a
> > propagandised corruption of the Pagan God, just like Hallowe(')en is a
> > corruption of the Pagan festival Samhain (pronounced Sow-inn). Just wanted
> > to make that abundantly clear.

While I understand that....

Parker:

> Thanks for your comments on pagans/wiccans/Other modern-day Witches.  
> I'm a pagan, a fact I keep pretty damn quiet down here in the South.  

Aha! Proof that Pagans read Potter. It's obviously geared to Pagans! Ahh!
And I'm an Atheist. Oh no! Now it's crossing religious beliefs.

It's just too much fun. Of course, I hope we all know that I'm joking.. Right?
Right?? :]

> Parker (holding down the Pagan fort here in Charleston)

(PS, I'm from Charleston, too.)

Andy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 15:12:39 2001
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:12:39 +0100
Subject: intro to list
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010309145916.009f48a0@rudjer.irb.hr>

No: HPFGUIDX 13978

Hello,

I've decided to introduce myself to the list before the March 12. events 
(publishing, not the list admin) overtake us all. I've become a Harry 
Potter fan over the last couple of months. I was at first reluctant to read 
the books because, as someone whose teenage years (I'm 25 now) were 
influenced by Tolkien, I sometimes tend to be vary of other fantasy genre 
works. Needless to say, my fears were unfounded, and I greatly enjoyed all 
four books.

I've read most of the book reviews I cold find (do I sound like Hermione 
now?) and my favorite one is the "Harry Potter's Magic" by Alan Jacobs. I 
especially liked the way he linked the approach to magic to the problem of 
technology in our world. I would greatly appreciate if anyone can send me 
more links to similar thought provoking reviews (off list is fine).
My favorite book to date remains PoA. In many ways I found it more 
emotionally engaging than any other book. Because of the themes of betrayal 
and loss (Harry coming so close to having a family, only to have this dream 
taken from him again) I found it even "darker" than GoF, although 
undoubtedly less graphic.

My second favorite is CoS. Many issues and complexities that trouble the 
wizarding world are first introduced here (Mudbloods and Rumours), only to 
be further developed (with examples!) in GoF. Additionally, Voldemort as 
Tom Riddle just seems so much more disturbing a villain than Voldemort in 
his snakelike incarnation, even though I understand that this (partial) 
loss of human form is a result of the quest for power and immortality. But 
the loss of humanity came first, as Harry finds out during the 
confrontation in the chamber.

I'm very grateful to JK Rowling for introducing the veela (vila) reference 
in the GoF. It brought back memories (albeit muddled ones) of my 
grandfather telling me stories about them. I have since reread the tales 
inspired by local folklore (I live in Croatia) that were forgotten since 
childhood, and I am now looking for more.

I've made this post longer than intended, so I'll just finish by saying 
that I'm really looking forward to taking part in discussions (time 
permitting) especially since it seems that there is so much to talk about.

Vlatka


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar  9 15:11:43 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:11:43 -0600
Subject: Comments to Neil & Rita about Shippers,and wondering if anyone else agrees with me
References: <3AA89766.C3C8E94A@wicca.net> <004001c0a893$70f46e60$b53670c2@c5s910j> <009701c0a8af$30a2e960$10ccfea9@computer>
Message-ID: <3AA8F2AF.25237B51@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13979

Hi --

Denise R wrote:

> Rita,
> I also agree with you about the shippers.  I have even set up my email
> to
> "catch" ship headings, and plop them into a folder.  In the beginning,
> I had an "auto-delete" message rule, but I lost a few "real" posts
> too.
>
> It's not that I don't have a preference.  Perhaps, it can be best said
> that after almost a year of hearing about it, I'm not wanting to
> listen to it any more?
>
> (Hopes that makes sense?)
>
> I second Rita's motion for a SHIP-list.  (Don't know if it works that
> way, but it's a start?)
>
> Neil, I do hope you understand?

Neil may understand.  *I* do not.  The shipping posts are clearly
labelled (95% of the time).  The people engaging in the debates enjoy
them.  They come & go in waves.  As Neil said, most all of the shipping
posts are considered on-topic and the overwhelming majority of them use
examples from canon to support their positions.  We are relegating
shipping posts that do *not* use examples from canon to OT-Chatter.

You've set up a system for filtering the shipping posts into a single
folder in your email system, and you *could* just trash them all
automatically if you wanted.  I fail to understand why this is a problem
for you.

There are plenty of topics that also come & go in waves that I ignore
and/or delete automatically.  I do not, however, take my *personal
disinterest* in those topics as license to denigrate those who do (or to
call for some sort of mass ban on a topic that is considered by most
everyone to be On-Topic).

CASTING as an example.  How many of those posts really have anything at
all to do with the *books* (canon)?  I skipped them all (almost).  I
mentioned that I was skipping them, but I didn't feel the need to
criticize all the people who wanted to engage in that debate or propose
that a separate Casting/Movie list be created.

The Moderator Team decided that any topic that we've written (or are
writing) a FAQ to cover is considered "On-Topic" for the main group.  To
the extent that any of those topics veer OT, they will be asked to move
over to OT-Chatter.  We've made it abundantly clear that shipping posts
that do not use examples from canon need to go to OT-Chatter.

Just so no one is confused, with the exception of the foregoing
paragraph, this rant is in my capacity as Joe Q. ListMember #157 (not in
my capacity as a Moderator).

Penny
List-Member


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar  9 15:26:01 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:26:01 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Announcements List is up & running (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AA8F609.25E1A95E@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13980

Hi everyone --

Your Moderator Team has been hard at work, looking for ways to reduce
message volume and keep the main group friendly & organized.

We've set up another sister Yahoogroup -- the HP4GU - Announcements
list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

This list is intended for those who want to receive announcements about
HP news, book release dates, fanfic plugs by the author, notification of
new merchandise, as well as periodic summaries of what the main group
has been discussing (including those members who cannot cope with the
high posting rate on the main list).

Please note that we are requiring the types of announcements that you
see listed below be made *only* to the Announcements List.  This will
reduce message volume on the main group.  The only messages that will be
duplicated will be the ADMIN messages posted to the main group and
copied to the Announcements list.

To manage the volume on this list, it is a moderated group.  This means
that one of the Moderators on the Moderator Team must approve your
message before it gets sent out to the list.

The following announcements are permitted (not an exhaustive list -
please check with the Moderators if you are unsure about your message):

*** The HPforGrownUps Newsletter (edited by Jeralyn and Ebony)

*** ADMIN messages from the Moderator Team (copies of those posted to
the main group)

*** Announcements of chat room sessions

*** Announcements of new discussion summaries posted to the main list

*** Plugs of fanfiction (one plug per chapter by the author)

*** Plugs of HP-related events (including regional Members' meetings)

*** Plugs of new HP websites or of new HP information on other websites

*** News releases, with links (this should include things related to the
Warner Brothers' movie)

*** Fun HP links, such as Sorting Hat quizzes

*** Alerts to new HP merchandise

*** JKR sightings; JKR events (book signings, tours, TV appearances,
chats, etc.)

*** Information on HP fan clubs

Again, we encourage everyone to join this group as well.  The message
volume should remain relatively low & focused (because the Moderators
must approve each message, you can be assured that the subject heading
will be relevant!).

Please remember that beginning March 12th, fanfic plugs, merchandise
sightings, news links and the like need to be posted *only* to the
Announcements list.  This message will be repeated several times over
the next few weeks to be sure everyone is aware of the changes.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team











From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar  9 15:27:00 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:27:00 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Spoilers for the JKR Schoolbooks (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AA8F644.29C632C0@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13981

Hi everyone --

The Moderator Team has decided to require spoiler warnings & spoiler
space for discussion of the schoolbooks to be released next Monday
(March 12th).  These 2 books are: Quidditch Through the Ages and
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.

For those of you unfamiliar with spoiler warnings, etc. -- here's a
brief review.  Put something like the following as your subject heading:
Quidditch book (SPOILER WARNING).  Include a minimum of 15 lines of
spoiler space before typing your message.  If you are replying, be sure
to include spoiler space and put your reply *under* the part that you
are replying to (ensuring plenty of spoiler space).  Here's how it
should look:

After your greeting, type the following

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

This will allow anyone who inadvertently opens your message to avoid
seeing any text.

Again, this ADMIN message will be sent out daily through the end of next
week.  We are currently thinking that spoilers should stay in place
about 2 weeks from the release date of March 12th.  You will be notified
when spoilers are no longer required.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team










From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar  9 15:24:37 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:24:37 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: OT messages to move to the OTChatter List (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AA8F5B4.EAF90EB8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13982

Hi everyone --

Starting with March 12th, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup. This is in order to make it easier to
sort through messages and reduce overall message volume on this list.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

You will need to join this list, but as with any yahoogroup, you may set
your subscription options to (a) individual emails, (b) digests or (c)
webview only.  There are about 60 or so members over there already, and
the message volume promises to be high.  So, if you might not care much
about OT posts or care only now & again, the webview option might be a
good choice.

On this OT-Chatter list, you may discuss anything unrelated to Harry
Potter (subject to the rule against inflammatory topics - see below),
and you should, in addition, discuss the following
HP-related things on this list rather than the main HPforGrownups list
(this is *not* an exhaustive list):

*** Fanfic recommendations (recommending/discussing a fanfic by someone
else - unless
it can be tied to canon)

*** Listings of HP merchandise collections

*** Answering a roll call (e.g. for the H/H Cruiseliner or the Good Ship
R/H)

*** Detailing your results on a HP Quiz or Sorting Hat test

*** Short, fun posts, such as 'Tom Swifties'

*** Shipper Debates not supported by examples from canon

*** Opinions on HP artwork, book covers and other paraphernalia

*** Definitions or explanations of British words, phrases and traditions
related to HP

***  Exchanges of cultural information between the Americans and the
Brits

*** Anything that you would preface with "This is slightly OT but ..."

We wish this area of the club to remain friendly and welcoming, so the
Moderators will step in if any thread appears to be veering in a
contentious direction.   Examples of prohibited subjects include
politics and The Holocaust.

This message will be resent every day for the next 2 weeks.  If you've
read it once, there will be no need to re-read it.  We just want to be
sure that everyone gets the message.  Don't be surprised if you get an
e-howler (or at least a friendly reminder) from one of the Moderators if
you violate the OT policy.

Thanks for listening (more ADMIN messages to come -- please continue to
read them as they are important).

Penny
The Moderator Team








From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Mar  9 10:30:49 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:30:49 EST5EDT
Subject: Portrait photograph of Harry
Message-ID: <168320D6745@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 13983

OK...back to the drawing board.  I now have to figure how to add 
this to my Harry movie picture wallpaper....what an EXCELLENT 
picture!!!!!!

And yes....the pants are a wee bit short.  :-)  Poor Harry.  To go 
from clothes that are too big to clothes that are too short.  :-)  But 
yes, it's probably just because he's sitting.

	

Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From margdean at erols.com  Fri Mar  9 16:18:21 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 11:18:21 -0500
Subject: Harry's Curiosity, Etc.
References: <3AA89766.C3C8E94A@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3AA9024D.E65DF2CC@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13984

Catlady wrote:
 
> Milz wrote:
> > If I were told that my parents were magical and that I, as an infant,
> > took down the world's greatest villain, I would be very curious about
> >  it all.
> 
> I think the Dursleys managed to beat the impulse to ask questions out of
> him.

Though it's surprising, when you come to think about it, how
little =else= the Dursleys managed to beat out of Harry,
considering how they treated him.  In Book I he's somewhat
withdrawn, and suspicious of adults/authority, but his self-image
is better than you'd expect and he's certainly never bought into
the notion that he =deserves= the treatment he's gotten.  =Not=
the effects we're normally led to expect from child abuse these
days.

So . . . was Lily's love protecting him from evils other than
Voldemort's?  Did he (being magical), somehow "know" throughout
his childhood that someone did indeed love him, though none of
the living, breathing people around him ever showed it?


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Fri Mar  9 16:04:49 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:04:49 -0000
Subject: SHIP: RE: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR
In-Reply-To: <986q00+c6io@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98auv1+db1t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13985


> Actually, I believe it was Star who had a differing view regarding 
> Ron's feelings towards Hermione and that is what IMO started 
> the 'Yule Ball' debate, which has since turned into a debate over 
> what Hermione meant by her last remark to Ron :-)
> 

*slowly raises hand* Yep that's me, guilty, sorry, didn't mean to 
start any problems if I did, I probly shouda kept my mouth shut b/c I 
was pretty sure nobudy agreed with me anyways oh well, now I know for 
sure, I'll leave other responses to Penny sense other then the issue 
I just started I like her way of thinking and agree with many of her 
opinions and I'm sure I do along the tred of your post
~Star~




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Fri Mar  9 16:14:23 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:14:23 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ships, etc.
In-Reply-To: <988tu2+bu34@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98avgv+7ul0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13986


> 6. Cassie, I'll up the offer to make DS R/H to $75. I think your
> Ron is the bee's knees.
> 

Cass, anything they offer to make DS R/H don't please, I'll match 
anything
~Star~




From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 16:16:45 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:16:45 -0000
Subject: SHIPS
Message-ID: <98avld+4pdg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13987

B, you are an awesome Good Will Embassador !! (B., please don't be 
offended that I used your name directly :-)

I am just going to say a few quick things and then head back to Sugar 
Quill Island. 

Penny wrote:
I might not have jumped into this latest round of discussions myself 
but
for the fact that Firoza's initial post on the topic (a) contained
erroneous assumptions about the position of the H/H shippers and so 
had
flawed logical reasoning, and (b) contained a reference to my name.


I echo this sentiment! Since I see my name mentioned I will respond. 
My initial 'erroneous assumptions' about the position of the H/H 
shippers DID have flawed logical reasoning since the assumptions I 
was working on where themselves flawed :-). But, thanks to the 
various responses to my initial post, I do have a clearer idea of the 
H/H position. I still don't agree with it, and myself see various 
aspects of flawed logical reasoning in it :-) But that is because I 
am looking at the H/H position as a non-H/H person. I am sure if I 
was H/H, it would make perfect logical sense to me, just like my R/H 
reasoning makes perfect logical sense to me :-) We are all looking at 
the same written words and putting our own personal interpretations 
into them. So yes, what I see as perfectly logical may not tally with 
someone elses view therefore appear flawed to them. Since I don't 
feel like taking out my old logic textbook and going back to fix 
my 'flaws' (but if any one else wants to do this, feel free!), I will 
leave my reasoning as is :-)

I would also like to suggest giving the great fanfics on Sugar Quill  
a try. B. herself has some wonderful pieces archived there :-)

Happy sailing!

Firoza :-)




From firoza10 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 16:22:24 2001
From: firoza10 at yahoo.com (firoza10 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:22:24 -0000
Subject: SHIPS
In-Reply-To: <98avld+4pdg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98b000+aa4c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13988

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., firoza10 at y... wrote:

I just wanted to make a quick correction to my post below.

I should have added 'to the Good Ship R/H', so the first line should 
read,

B., you are an awesome Good Will Embassador for the Good Ship R/H!!

Bouncer (or Sergeant-at-Arms) Firoza of the Good Ship R/H :-)

> B, you are an awesome Good Will Embassador !! (B., please don't be 
> offended that I used your name directly :-)
> 
> I am just going to say a few quick things and then head back to 
Sugar 
> Quill Island. 
> 
> Penny wrote:
> I might not have jumped into this latest round of discussions 
myself 
> but
> for the fact that Firoza's initial post on the topic (a) contained
> erroneous assumptions about the position of the H/H shippers and so 
> had
> flawed logical reasoning, and (b) contained a reference to my name.
> 
> 
> I echo this sentiment! Since I see my name mentioned I will 
respond. 
> My initial 'erroneous assumptions' about the position of the H/H 
> shippers DID have flawed logical reasoning since the assumptions I 
> was working on where themselves flawed :-). But, thanks to the 
> various responses to my initial post, I do have a clearer idea of 
the 
> H/H position. I still don't agree with it, and myself see various 
> aspects of flawed logical reasoning in it :-) But that is because I 
> am looking at the H/H position as a non-H/H person. I am sure if I 
> was H/H, it would make perfect logical sense to me, just like my 
R/H 
> reasoning makes perfect logical sense to me :-) We are all looking 
at 
> the same written words and putting our own personal interpretations 
> into them. So yes, what I see as perfectly logical may not tally 
with 
> someone elses view therefore appear flawed to them. Since I don't 
> feel like taking out my old logic textbook and going back to fix 
> my 'flaws' (but if any one else wants to do this, feel free!), I 
will 
> leave my reasoning as is :-)
> 
> I would also like to suggest giving the great fanfics on Sugar 
Quill  
> a try. B. herself has some wonderful pieces archived there :-)
> 
> Happy sailing!
> 
> Firoza :-)




From niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Mar  9 16:26:35 2001
From: niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk (niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:26:35 -0000
Subject: chocolate frog easter eggs!
Message-ID: <98b07r+gg2d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13989

maybe im a little sad but I was in M&S this morning and saw that they 
were selling choclate frog easter eggs so I bought a couple ALL for 
me! Cant wait till easter





From snapeman at spray.fr  Fri Mar  9 16:49:58 2001
From: snapeman at spray.fr (snapeman at spray.fr)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:49:58 -0000
Subject: Trailer about the Trailer
Message-ID: <98b1jm+mvtu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13990

You can see a trailer about the trailer here :
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/a/g/nm/latest/latest_10.html?u
Cheers
Snapeman





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  9 17:17:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:17:53 -0000
Subject: Sirius hiding place
In-Reply-To: <98aad0+pgm0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98b381+9ihn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13991

Jennifer wrote:

>  In an online chat ms rowling were asked where sirius and buckbek 
> headed when escaping from hogwarts. she answered (with the usual 
> smiley) "Somewhere nice and warm :)".
>  Surely that could have been just a reference to a fireplace and 
some 
> hot chocolate (after a truly hard day). but it could also have been 
> mentioned as a hint to the location of sirius hiding place (it 
would 
> have been a la rowling). 
> so - it could be located in south, or in some specific place, 
famous 
> for its warmth/heat.
> 

Ch. 2 of GoF: Instead of using an owl, Sirius sends a letter to Harry 
via some kind of unidentified, but beautiful and exotic, bird that 
suggests a tropical location.  (Hedwig treats it like a "scarlet 
woman.")

Amy Z 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  9 17:21:39 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:21:39 -0000
Subject: Portrait photograph of Harry
In-Reply-To: <20010309115835.29830.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <98b3f3+pl1q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13992

Thanks so much, Christian!  What a terrific photo!

Okay, this is the first pic that reveals his forehead and I *still* 
don't see a scar.

However, his hair is properly untidy at last.  ;-)

Wondering how I'm going to survive to Nov. 16,
Amy Z




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Mar  9 17:51:05 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:51:05 -0000
Subject: MOVIE Re: Portrait photograph of Harry
In-Reply-To: <20010309115835.29830.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <98b569+t05p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13993

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub? <pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:
> If you go to
> 
> http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery23.htm
> 
> you will find a large portrait photograph of Daniel Radcliffe as 
Harry.  Somehow that 
> picture is just perfectly Harry, IMO

This is a wonderful photo by Annie Leibowitz, one of my favorite 
photographers.  A wonderful photo of Daniel Radcliffe, anyway, whose 
facial expression and body language does seem very Harry-like.  But 
-- his hair is brownish, not jet-black (although it is appropriately 
mussy), his eyes are brown and he has NO scar on his forehead.  Will 
the filmmakers

1) Add in those little details later, or
2) Are the details added in makeup, and this photo was taken with his 
makeup off, or will they
2) Just ignore them because who would notice except a bunch of 
obsessive lunatics?

And why dont the kids in the movie ever wear their pointy hats?

Cool photo, anyway.  I predict a run on the March issue of Vanity 
Fair by members of this group.

--Joywitch, who wants Harry to be EXACTLY right




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Mar  9 18:08:34 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:08:34 -0000
Subject: Comments to Neil & Rita about Shippers, and wondering if anyone else agrees with me
In-Reply-To: <009701c0a8af$30a2e960$10ccfea9@computer>
Message-ID: <98b672+44i7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13994

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> 
> Rita,
> I also agree with you about the shippers.  

> > A tired Rita said: {previously)
> >
> > if the Mod
> > Squad is DEEPLY concerning with reducing the traffic on the main 
list,
> they
> > should exile ALL Harry/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione
> > shipping to a group of its own...<snip> >>
> >

Neil responded:
> > Since most themes (such as
> > shipping) come and go in waves (ahem), it made more sense to 
remove OT
> > posts, which are multi-topic and featured more regularly 
> > [snip]
> > Shipping posts seem to be quite a bone of contention here, .....

First of all, Neil, as punishment for that horrible pun about 
shipping and waves I am lopping of one or your bunny ears. Now, let 
me add my voice to the clamor for banning shipping discussions to 
another group.  I think the shippers would be much happier in their 
own group, anyway.  They could decorate it anyway they chose, use any 
subject headings they want, spray their various-colored water pistols 
at each other, WITHOUT GETTING THE REST OF US SEASICK.  After they 
are all done dissecting everyones love lives, they could come home to 
HP4GUps main group and rant about the Chapter summaries and the movie 
trailer and whether the Harry Potter frames are cheesy looking or 
not, like us normal HP addicts.

Speaking of Harry Potter frames, I have an empty one here just 
waiting for my photo of Neil in bunny slippers and hairnet like 
Doreen promised me.

--Joywitch




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 18:14:26 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:14:26 -0000
Subject: Comments to Neil & Rita about Shippers,and wondering if anyone else agrees with me
In-Reply-To: <3AA8F2AF.25237B51@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <98b6i2+9ac8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13995

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
<snip>
As Neil said, most all of the shipping
> posts are considered on-topic and the overwhelming majority of them 
use
> examples from canon to support their positions.  We are relegating
> shipping posts that do *not* use examples from canon to OT-Chatter.
> 
> You've set up a system for filtering the shipping posts into a 
single
> folder in your email system, and you *could* just trash them all
> automatically if you wanted.  I fail to understand why this is a 
problem
> for you.
> 

Yes. If the volume is getting difficult, I would suggest going to 
read on web like I have. Then you don't even have to bother about 
deleting, and people have gotten tons better about labelling their 
messages properly with the prefixes, or renaming digest posts, though 
I'd personally prefer if people used the "MOVIE" tag more. 

<snip>

I didn't think that anyone was specifically "denigrating" people who 
enjoy shipping, but even as someone who doesn't get involved in those 
debates (The only thing I want to see is how what people think about 
new developments, whatever they will be, in book five when it comes 
out). I feel that the best solution to being tired of reading them is 
to start new threads that don't involve shipping. Kind of change the 
stream of the discourse in a positive way rather than a negative one. 
I think we will be seeing more non-shipping posts as the Monster and 
Quidditch books come out. Sigh...someone post a review once they read 
it, huh? :)

Charmian




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  8 23:12:31 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Clayton)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:12:31 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer, Shipping, Logo Poll and anything else I happen to think of
Message-ID: <F11SWTgZu6WY9IuXZ2y0000091e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13996

>As for the BBC Newsround link, you can download the trailer from
>there but it is the RealPlayer version which IMHO is very poor
>quality.  If anyone could tell me where to download the Quicktime or
>Windows Media version, I would give their House 50 points.  Or better
>yet, upload it to somewhere accessible to the group.

If you go to www.harrypotter.com and watch it online using Quicktime/Windows 
Media, it downloads to your computer as well. After you've watched it, do a 
search for harry_potter_trailer_qt_hi.mov, and there you have it! And I have 
to admit that Lynn told *me* how to do that, so maybe her house should get 
the points :)

Liz

-----
'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry.
'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second cousin who's 
an accountant, but we never talk about him.'
-----

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar  9 19:01:04 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 13:01:04 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer
References: <F11SWTgZu6WY9IuXZ2y0000091e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AA92870.74F58E4C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 13997

Elizabeth Clayton wrote:

> If you go to www.harrypotter.com and watch it online using
> Quicktime/Windows Media, it downloads to your computer as well. After
> you've watched it, do a search for harry_potter_trailer_qt_hi.mov, and
> there you have it! And I have to admit that Lynn told *me* how to do
> that, so maybe her house should get the points :)

I have Windows Media, but every time I click on that at the official
site, I get their tiny screen opening, the Windows Media logo swirling
around, and then the audio from the trailer. In the meantime Netscape
has opened another browser window and is writing gibberish onto my
screen. Thus I can neither download nor watch it here. I am a confused
person. My house-elves know nothing about computers either (maybe that's
why it won't work..?).

I have only seen the trailer twice, and I'm aggravated. An aggravated
mother of three kids under six facing Spring Break next week and
houseguests tomorrow is NOT something you want to deal with. Rrrrrrr.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jheen at netzero.net  Fri Mar  9 19:19:56 2001
From: jheen at netzero.net (Genevieve Pratt)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:19:56 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer
References: <F11SWTgZu6WY9IuXZ2y0000091e@hotmail.com> <3AA92870.74F58E4C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00c301c0a8cd$edad6620$59e91a41@mmcable.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13998

*creeps out of lurkdom*

Just a hint from a techie ;) When you go to the website, instead of clicking on it, right click on it. Then select save target as and it'll save the trailer. I'm not sure if that works with netscape (i use ie), but it definitely does with internet explorer

I hope that helps!

*scuttles back into her dark little corner*
Genevieve

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Amanda Lewanski 
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Trailer


Elizabeth Clayton wrote:

> If you go to www.harrypotter.com and watch it online using
> Quicktime/Windows Media, it downloads to your computer as well. After
> you've watched it, do a search for harry_potter_trailer_qt_hi.mov, and
> there you have it! And I have to admit that Lynn told *me* how to do
> that, so maybe her house should get the points :)

I have Windows Media, but every time I click on that at the official
site, I get their tiny screen opening, the Windows Media logo swirling
around, and then the audio from the trailer. In the meantime Netscape
has opened another browser window and is writing gibberish onto my
screen. Thus I can neither download nor watch it here. I am a confused
person. My house-elves know nothing about computers either (maybe that's
why it won't work..?).

I have only seen the trailer twice, and I'm aggravated. An aggravated
mother of three kids under six facing Spring Break next week and
houseguests tomorrow is NOT something you want to deal with. Rrrrrrr.

--Amanda


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From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar  9 19:19:55 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 19:19:55 -0000
Subject: Trailer
In-Reply-To: <3AA92870.74F58E4C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <98bacr+q7e5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 13999

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> (Snip)> 
> I have Windows Media, but every time I click on that at the official
> site, I get their tiny screen opening, the Windows Media logo 
swirling
> around, and then the audio from the trailer. In the meantime 
Netscape
> has opened another browser window and is writing gibberish onto my
> screen. Thus I can neither download nor watch it here. I am a 
confused
> person. My house-elves know nothing about computers either (maybe 
that's
> why it won't work..?).

I have Windows Media as well.  Won't work for me & the house-elves 
won't tell me how to fix it.  I installed Quicktime (which you can do 
from the WB site).  This works, although the picture is *still too 
bloody small*!
> 
> I have only seen the trailer twice, and I'm aggravated. An 
aggravated
> mother of three kids under six facing Spring Break next week and
> houseguests tomorrow is NOT something you want to deal with. 
Rrrrrrr.
> 
> --Amanda

Hope this helps, Amanda.  You're right--an aggravated mum is *not* a 
good thing.  

Parker
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Fri Mar  9 20:13:05 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 21:13:05 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius hiding place
In-Reply-To: <98aad0+pgm0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKAENACAAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 14000


> -----Original Message-----
> From: jennifer.k at lycos.com [mailto:jennifer.k at lycos.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 11:14 AM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius hiding place
 
>  In an online chat ms rowling were asked where sirius and buckbek 
> headed when escaping from hogwarts. she answered (with the usual 
> smiley) "Somewhere nice and warm :)".
[...]
> so - it could be located in south, or in some specific place, famous 
> for its warmth/heat.

I always assumed that he passed the summer on a tropical island,
remember the birds (instead of owls) that he sent Harry.  Also, his
letters sounded "cheerful", so it must have a been a place far away
from England where the MoM - and the Dementors - could not reach
him. I don't think he had to hide there, apparently he was able to
get enough food to regain some weight. He looked better when Harry
saw him again after his return, not only had he cleaned himself up
but his face was fuller. So he had been able to recover a bit over
these months, although not completely since he still had that haunted
look in his eyes. 

Just my 2 cents.
Monika

------
Check out our book and movie reviews:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar  9 20:16:51 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:16:51 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
In-Reply-To: <9895pq+4bcb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98bdnj+mfrs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14001

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink at h...> wrote:

> Is Harry Potter a fantasy series... or sci-fi?  Or something else 
> altogether?

Wow Ebony, thanks for asking such a fascinating question. Here's my two 
knuts.

	The marvelous cannot by definition be a part of everyday life, and 
therefore stories of the marvelous must take place in a marvelous 
milieu. If this milieu is supposed to have been produced by the 
application of scientific understanding, then we have a science fiction 
story. 

	The appetite for marvels has always been suspect, and this 
suspicion extends to the literary critical establishment. The 
practitioners of science fiction, which originated as a subgenre of 
fantasy, therefore agitated to have their work considered separately 
from the discredited fantasy genre. They wished to escape the 
'escapist' label attached to fantasy and graft themselves onto the more 
academically respectable 'revelatory'  branch of the lit-crit  tree. 
They claimed that science fiction stories were an attempt to anticipate 
and reveal the effects of possible future technological developments 
and so were not escapist at all. 

	Your source accepts this division and then attempts to distinguish 
between imaginary magic, which is the supposed province of fantasy, and 
imaginary technology, which is the supposed province of science 
fiction, by presuming that magic operates by direct intention of the 
magician without the need for tools.  The claim is that since magic of 
the kind described in most fantasies requires tools or processes of 
some kind, it should really be called  technology and such works ought 
to be considered science fiction. 

	This is a misunderstanding of the use of the word technology as 
applied to science fiction. The word technology has two meanings: one 
applies to the exploitation of scientific knowledge, the other applies 
to the entire body of knowledge related to tools and processes. The 
imaginary technology of science fiction is specifically the first kind 
of technology: the technology which is derived from scientific 
understanding: from the systematic study of a universe which is 
presumed to operate according to discoverable natural laws. 

	The Harry Potter stories are not science fiction. The whole point 
of science is that it is discoverable, the essence of magic is that it 
is not. (Aspiring fantasy writers are told over and over again by every 
practitioner of the art that the one thing they must never do is 
explain how the magic works.) The Potterverse never offers any kind of 
scientific explanation for its magical devices, nor do the characters 
presume that there is one. Therefore, while those devices are indeed 
technology in the broader sense, they are not technological in the 
sense which I would apply to science fiction.
	
Pippin





From imperiatus at excite.com  Fri Mar  9 20:23:16 2001
From: imperiatus at excite.com (victor mcpherson)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:23:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIPS
Message-ID: <11084015.984169396457.JavaMail.imail@bernie.excite.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14002

im sorry for appearing stupid, but every bit of what you said went over my
head
On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:16:45 -0000, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote:

>  B, you are an awesome Good Will Embassador !! (B., please don't be 
>  offended that I used your name directly :-)
>  
>  I am just going to say a few quick things and then head back to Sugar 
>  Quill Island. 
>  
>  Penny wrote:
>  I might not have jumped into this latest round of discussions myself 
>  but
>  for the fact that Firoza's initial post on the topic (a) contained
>  erroneous assumptions about the position of the H/H shippers and so 
>  had
>  flawed logical reasoning, and (b) contained a reference to my name.
>  
>  
>  I echo this sentiment! Since I see my name mentioned I will respond. 
>  My initial 'erroneous assumptions' about the position of the H/H 
>  shippers DID have flawed logical reasoning since the assumptions I 
>  was working on where themselves flawed :-). But, thanks to the 
>  various responses to my initial post, I do have a clearer idea of the 
>  H/H position. I still don't agree with it, and myself see various 
>  aspects of flawed logical reasoning in it :-) But that is because I 
>  am looking at the H/H position as a non-H/H person. I am sure if I 
>  was H/H, it would make perfect logical sense to me, just like my R/H 
>  reasoning makes perfect logical sense to me :-) We are all looking at 
>  the same written words and putting our own personal interpretations 
>  into them. So yes, what I see as perfectly logical may not tally with 
>  someone elses view therefore appear flawed to them. Since I don't 
>  feel like taking out my old logic textbook and going back to fix 
>  my 'flaws' (but if any one else wants to do this, feel free!), I will 
>  leave my reasoning as is :-)
>  
>  I would also like to suggest giving the great fanfics on Sugar Quill  
>  a try. B. herself has some wonderful pieces archived there :-)
>  
>  Happy sailing!
>  
>  Firoza :-)
>





_______________________________________________________
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/





From imperiatus at excite.com  Fri Mar  9 20:37:15 2001
From: imperiatus at excite.com (victor mcpherson)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:37:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] intro to list
Message-ID: <1471715.984170235671.JavaMail.imail@bernie.excite.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14003

since you are a fellow enthusiast of tolkien, you may enjoy another author
who writes adventure books involving animals, rats, badgers, etc. his name
is Brian Jacques. the titles include. Redwall, Luke, and many others. i am
an avid reader of adventure. i syill love the classics of the 1800's thru to
the 1940's. which also i might add, you havent read the fairy tales like
Goldilocks, Hansel and Gretel, and others until you have read the original
books by the Brothers Grimm. Those books are horrificly graphic with blood
and destruction. These same fairy tales you and others read to your children
these days to put them to sleep cause them to dream wonderful dreams. but in
the 1800's, children, having been read the original, unedited books, were
subject to nightmares of such ferocity that back then it was everyday
normalcy, where as today everything has been censored and edited so children
would never learn the truth to fairy tales today.
On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:12:39 +0100, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote:

>  Hello,
>  
>  I've decided to introduce myself to the list before the March 12. events 
>  (publishing, not the list admin) overtake us all. I've become a Harry 
>  Potter fan over the last couple of months. I was at first reluctant to
read 
>  the books because, as someone whose teenage years (I'm 25 now) were 
>  influenced by Tolkien, I sometimes tend to be vary of other fantasy genre

>  works. Needless to say, my fears were unfounded, and I greatly enjoyed
all 
>  four books.
>  
>  I've read most of the book reviews I cold find (do I sound like Hermione 
>  now?) and my favorite one is the "Harry Potter's Magic" by Alan Jacobs. I

>  especially liked the way he linked the approach to magic to the problem
of 
>  technology in our world. I would greatly appreciate if anyone can send me

>  more links to similar thought provoking reviews (off list is fine).
>  My favorite book to date remains PoA. In many ways I found it more 
>  emotionally engaging than any other book. Because of the themes of
betrayal 
>  and loss (Harry coming so close to having a family, only to have this
dream 
>  taken from him again) I found it even "darker" than GoF, although 
>  undoubtedly less graphic.
>  
>  My second favorite is CoS. Many issues and complexities that trouble the 
>  wizarding world are first introduced here (Mudbloods and Rumours), only
to 
>  be further developed (with examples!) in GoF. Additionally, Voldemort as 
>  Tom Riddle just seems so much more disturbing a villain than Voldemort in

>  his snakelike incarnation, even though I understand that this (partial) 
>  loss of human form is a result of the quest for power and immortality.
But 
>  the loss of humanity came first, as Harry finds out during the 
>  confrontation in the chamber.
>  
>  I'm very grateful to JK Rowling for introducing the veela (vila)
reference 
>  in the GoF. It brought back memories (albeit muddled ones) of my 
>  grandfather telling me stories about them. I have since reread the tales 
>  inspired by local folklore (I live in Croatia) that were forgotten since 
>  childhood, and I am now looking for more.
>  
>  I've made this post longer than intended, so I'll just finish by saying 
>  that I'm really looking forward to taking part in discussions (time 
>  permitting) especially since it seems that there is so much to talk
about.
>  
>  Vlatka
>  
>  
>  
>  _________________________________________________________
>  
>  Do You Yahoo!?
>  
>  Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>  
>  
>





_______________________________________________________
Send a cool gift with your E-Card
http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar  9 20:48:42 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:48:42 -0000
Subject: Avada Kedavra Filk
Message-ID: <98bfja+cnkm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14004

Avada Kedavra 
A filk by Pippin, to the tune of Hakuna Matata, from the Lion King. 

Enter Voldemort, Lucius Malfoy, and Draco 
Voldemort (spoken):
	Avada Kedavera!
	What a wonderful curse
Lucius:(spoken)
	Avada Kedavra

	(sung)
	Can't do any worse

Voldemort:
	We're unforgiven
	for the rest of our days.

Voldemort and Lucius:
	It's our morals free
	philosophy.
	Avada Kedavra!

Voldie:
	When I was a young Hogwart
Lucius :
	When he was a young Hogwart
	He found his destiny with a certain basilisk
	He could clear the school of Mudbloods
	But it was a frightful risk
Voldie:
	I'm only half blood
	Though I  am Slytherin
	But my intimate friends
	Knew I stood to win
		
	(Spoken)
Voldemort:
	But  oh the shame
Lucius:
	He was ashamed
Voldemort:
	Thought of changing my name
Lucius:
	You Must Not Be Named
Voldemort:
	Every time that it hit
     And I felt like --
Lucius:
	Hey Voldie, not in front of the kid
Voldemort:
	Oh, sorry

	(All sing)
	Avada Kedavera
	What a wonderful phrase
	Avada Kedavra
	Ain't no passing craze
	Annihilation
	In a flash of green haze
	It's our Muggle free
	philosophy
	Avada Kedavra
	Avada Kedavra, etc.

(Voldemort, Lucius and Draco draw their wands, form a conga line and 
exit, chanting)





From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Mar  9 20:53:39 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:53:39 -0000
Subject: Trailer
In-Reply-To: <3AA92870.74F58E4C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <98bfsj+6b3p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14005

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> I have only seen the trailer twice, and I'm aggravated. An 
aggravated
> mother of three kids under six facing Spring Break next week and
> houseguests tomorrow is NOT something you want to deal with. 
Rrrrrrr.

My advice (applicable to other trailer-hungry members):

1.  Throw all children in car.
2.  Drive to local movie theatre.
3.  Buy tickets for See Spot Run.
4.  Watch Harry Potter trailer.
5.  Tell oldest child to watch younger ones carefully or else he/she 
will be attending military school next semester.
6.  Leave theatre before stupid movie starts.
7.  Go to local bar.
8.  Have drink.
9.  Repeat as necessary.

--Joywitch





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 21:47:02 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:47:02 -0000
Subject: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
Message-ID: <98bj0m+hjd7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14006

Hey gang!

I had a whole bunch of what I hoped were cheerful, positive and 
insightful comments (but were probably just random babble) on the 
shipping debate. But since shipping appears to have ticked so many 
people off just lately, I'm trying, in my cheerful and positive way, 
to avoid getting myself clobbered by the seasick on the list.

So I decided to tuck those away for now and go another route 
entirely, so as to add a (hopefully) interesting non-ship thread to 
appease the seasick (from whom I expect to get some brilliant 
responses on this topic.  Or barring that, money would be nice.  Note 
to Moderators:  Is extortion from the seasick for not posting 
shipping stuff allowed?).

Oh yeah, I should probably get to the point, huh?

Ok, here goes.  All the silly stuff above was to work up my nerve to 
discuss something that I find somewhat difficult.  I've been reading 
in various threads over time, and I have noticed two main trends when 
discussing the possible defeat of Voldemort.

In the first, Voldemort is killed by Harry.

In the second, Harry dies in order for Voldemort to be defeated.

Both of these scenarios make me a bit queasy.  I know Voldemort is 
evil, and has to be defeated, but I'd hate for Harry to actually have 
to kill him.  I keep remembering his decision in PoA to stop Sirius 
and Remus from killing Pettigrew, and it makes me sad, because I 
thought he was so wise to make the decision he did.  I know it's 
different - I know that at the time Pettigrew was helpless, and not a 
threat to anyone, which means that killing him was simply revenge, 
and not self(or world)-defense, as it would be with Harry and 
Voldemort, but it still makes me terribly sad to think that Harry 
would have to kill someone, even if that someone is Voldy.

The second scenario, of course, is sick-making just because I love 
Harry so.  It would break my heart if he had to die.  On top of that, 
though, I think the messianic nature of that scenario is kinda creepy.

So anyway, what I'd like to know is, are there other major theories 
that I've missed?  Do most people feel that one of these two is what 
is going to happen? Which one?  Why?  How do people feel about it?  
Do these two possibilities freak anyone else out, or am I just too 
wimpy?  

Any thoughts, ideas, rogue theories?

kimberly, all worried and wishing she'd just gone ahead with less 
depressing shipping after all.




From margdean at erols.com  Fri Mar  9 22:28:45 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:28:45 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
References: <98bj0m+hjd7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA9591D.FECBFEC@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14007

Kimberly wrote:
 
> Ok, here goes.  All the silly stuff above was to work up my nerve to
> discuss something that I find somewhat difficult.  I've been reading
> in various threads over time, and I have noticed two main trends when
> discussing the possible defeat of Voldemort.
> 
> In the first, Voldemort is killed by Harry.
> 
> In the second, Harry dies in order for Voldemort to be defeated.
> 
> Both of these scenarios make me a bit queasy.  I know Voldemort is
> evil, and has to be defeated, but I'd hate for Harry to actually have
> to kill him.  I keep remembering his decision in PoA to stop Sirius
> and Remus from killing Pettigrew, and it makes me sad, because I
> thought he was so wise to make the decision he did.  I know it's
> different - I know that at the time Pettigrew was helpless, and not a
> threat to anyone, which means that killing him was simply revenge,
> and not self(or world)-defense, as it would be with Harry and
> Voldemort, but it still makes me terribly sad to think that Harry
> would have to kill someone, even if that someone is Voldy.
> 
> The second scenario, of course, is sick-making just because I love
> Harry so.  It would break my heart if he had to die.  On top of that,
> though, I think the messianic nature of that scenario is kinda creepy.
> 
> So anyway, what I'd like to know is, are there other major theories
> that I've missed?  Do most people feel that one of these two is what
> is going to happen? Which one?  Why?  How do people feel about it?
> Do these two possibilities freak anyone else out, or am I just too
> wimpy?
> 
> Any thoughts, ideas, rogue theories?

Well, let's think this out logically.  I assume we're all agreed
that Voldemort is not destined to =win,= right?  So he'll either
have to be killed or otherwise neutralized.  He could be reduced
to powerlessness like he was the first time (when he tried to
kill the infant Harry), but as we've seen, that was only a
temporary solution.  Magic leaves too many loopholes for him to
slip back through.

Another alternative for getting rid of villains is redeeming
them, so that they're not villains anymore.  Darth Vader in the
first Star Wars trilogy is a good example, switching sides at the
last moment because of his love for Luke.  (Of course, then he
also conveniently dies after killing the other major baddie.) 
Somehow I can't quiiiiiite see this happening in Voldy's case,
since he's never shown the least glimmering of affection or
loyalty toward anyone but his own sweet self (unlike Vader, who
was at least loyal to the Emperor) -- not even when he was Tom
Riddle, and certainly not now when he's become something that can
hardly even be called human.

So I think that Voldemort being killed is the most likely
possibility.  However, this doesn't necessarily mean that Harry
has to do it, or that Harry has to die in order for it to
happen.  (In fact, there have been enough remarks by JKR about it
not being =impossible= that she'd write more Harry books after
the seven, to make me think she doesn't plan to have him die at
the end of the series.)  It could be that someone else will kill
Voldemort in order to save Harry, and it wouldn't entirely
surprise me if =that= person died in the process.

Care to line up a few candidates?  <grinning evilly>

Pettigrew?
Sirius?
Ron?
Hermione?

Volunteers?


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From eccleston at clara.co.uk  Fri Mar  9 22:24:29 2001
From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 22:24:29 -0000
Subject: Harry's Curiosity, Etc.
In-Reply-To: <3AA9024D.E65DF2CC@erols.com>
Message-ID: <98bl6t+3op9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14008

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> Catlady wrote:
>  
> > Milz wrote:
> > > If I were told that my parents were magical and that I, as an 
infant,
> > > took down the world's greatest villain, I would be very curious 
about
> > >  it all.
> > 
> > I think the Dursleys managed to beat the impulse to ask questions 
out of
> > him.
> 
> Though it's surprising, when you come to think about it, how
> little =else= the Dursleys managed to beat out of Harry,
> considering how they treated him.  In Book I he's somewhat
> withdrawn, and suspicious of adults/authority, but his self-image
> is better than you'd expect and he's certainly never bought into
> the notion that he =deserves= the treatment he's gotten.  =Not=
> the effects we're normally led to expect from child abuse these
> days.
> 
> So . . . was Lily's love protecting him from evils other than
> Voldemort's?  Did he (being magical), somehow "know" throughout
> his childhood that someone did indeed love him, though none of
> the living, breathing people around him ever showed it?
> 
> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   <margdean at e...>

I think Harry's resilience is surprising, given the extreme treatment 
dished out by the Dursley's. In reality, in England, a child who was 
forced to sleep in a cupboard under the stairs and wear the clothes 
Harry does, would have ended up with Social Services getting 
interested. 

I read it as entertaining artistic licence which comically makes a 
point. In most good childrens literature the action takes place after 
the main protagonist has left home for some reason or other. JKR is 
following a tried and tested route into engaging a child readers 
sympathies with a character, and setting an interesting scene for a 
great story.





From john at walton.to  Fri Mar  9 22:29:10 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 22:29:10 +0000
Subject: The Big SH1P Issue
In-Reply-To: <98b6i2+9ac8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6CF09B6.DB14%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14009

Allow me, as a non-shipping Moderator (well, okay, I'm fond of Harry/Draco,
but ::ahem::) to elaborate on our thinking. Contrary to public belief,
ladies and gents, we do actually think our actions through in a reasonable
way and talk about them over on the Moderators list. Once done, we run it by
the people writing the FAQs (our guineapigs, if you will) and if they don't
go "What? Are you INSANE?" then we implement the changes. We're real people
too (well, all but the wacko who thinks he's a CAR), and we realise that we
do make mistakes sometimes. However, we have thought the SHIP issue through,
and we're happy with the current system.

So...let me explain the SHIP issue and that system in more detail.

Q) Why don't you ban SHIP posts to a new SHIP list?

A) We're trying to balance maintaining a community feel on the list (which
we feel would suffer if we split into smaller lists) with allowing people to
filter messages they're not interested in -- which, by nature of a community
of 1000+ members, will happen. The SHIPpers are *very* good about making
sure their messages are properly headed with SHIP. I'd estimate there are
more "Digest #153" messages than mistitled SHIP posts. All you have to do is
have your email program filter SHIP posts into a different folder (the Trash
if you want) or into a different, less-noticeable color (perhaps gray?) in
case somebody puts the word "ship" in a non-SHIP post by mistake. Outlook
Express is a free program that does this very well indeed.

Dee said that her program "catch"es SHIP posts before they get into her box.
This means the system works! It's far easier and better for everyone if,
rather than having separate lists to subscribe to (which the Moderators must
police), people USE THE SUBJECT MARKERS. These are:

* ADMIN: Moderator or approved persons only please!
* FF: FanFiction -- discussing or recommending stories written in the HP
universe. Announcements of new chapters should be made to the
HPFGU-Announcements list by the author.
* SHIP: RelationSHIPping -- discussing which, if any, of the main characters
will have romantic relationships.
* MOVIE (or FILM): Discussion of the upcoming movie/film.
* [OT should no longer be used. Rather, OT posts should be moved to the
OTChatter list.]


Q) Can't the SHIP posts go to the new OTChatter list?

A) No, because they're not off-topic. Any topic which has a FAQ being
written is by nature on-topic. Therefore, SHIP debates are on-topic.


Q) ::whinge:: But there's so much volume! Why can't you stop them?

A) If you think there's too much SHIP volume, post something else! Talk
about ::shock, horror:: book-banning, the movie (about which there have
recently been a lot more posts than there have been SHIP posts), or any
other on-topic subject. Do not whine about there being subjects on the list
you're not interested in but do nothing to create other subjects. Besides,
the schoolbooks are out on Monday. :)


Q) But what should I DO?! My email, 'ee eez dying! ::melodramatic swoon::

A) To reduce your list volume, the Moderators have some suggestions:

1) Switch to web view. Many people use this handy feature and find it's
great not to have emails clogging up your box and system.
2) Use HPFGU-Announcements to keep up on the vital issues and set the main
HPforGrownups group to web-only.
3) Set up sorting rules in your email program to filter out posts you'd
rather skip.
4) Use the Digest form -- one big message instead of 25 little messages.
5) Make concrete suggestions (that means suggesting solutions to problems)
to the Moderators at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com -- please don't
make your problem worse by cluttering up the main list with it.


ONE FINAL NOTE -- please refrain from creating additional lists in the style
of "HPFGU-ASubjectIDontLike". The Moderators have enough to do to sort
problems out without extra lists popping up out of nowhere. (::whisper:: It
makes Penny grouchy. This is a Bad Thing. Why, just today, she actually
started to eat a table, she was so grouchy. Neil and I are thinking of
buying her a trashcan and a green wig. [Just kidding there Penny. :)])

As ALWAYS, please feel free to email the Moderators with any suggestions for
improvements that could be made. We read and consider every suggestion in
detail -- for instance, the SUBJECT: headings were suggested to us by
someone in a chat! So write in!

Cheers,

--John, Moderator With Rock #47

__________________________________
The HPforGrownups Moderator Team
HPforGrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com

Website -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

Browse the Files Section for more documents relating to this group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  9 22:54:13 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 22:54:13 -0000
Subject: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
In-Reply-To: <98bj0m+hjd7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98bmul+orbn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14010

Kimberly wrote:

> In the first, Voldemort is killed by Harry.

<snip>
> 
> Both of these scenarios make me a bit queasy.  I know Voldemort is 
> evil, and has to be defeated, but I'd hate for Harry to actually 
have 
> to kill him.  I keep remembering his decision in PoA to stop Sirius 
> and Remus from killing Pettigrew, and it makes me sad, because I 
> thought he was so wise to make the decision he did.  I know it's 
> different - I know that at the time Pettigrew was helpless, and not 
a 
> threat to anyone, which means that killing him was simply revenge, 
> and not self(or world)-defense, as it would be with Harry and 
> Voldemort, but it still makes me terribly sad to think that Harry 
> would have to kill someone, even if that someone is Voldy.

Really interesting question, Kimberly!  

I also get a little queasy at the thought of Harry killing 
Voldemort--but I'm also intrigued at the possibility of seeing Harry 
deal with being a killer.  I think his refusal to kill Pettigrew (and 
Sirius, for that matter) shows that he wouldn't kill anyone except 
with extreme reluctance and if given no alternative that he could see. 
 He would suffer a lot if he killed even Voldemort, I think, and in my 
perverse way, I'd like to see that suffering.

I get queasy in a different way at the thought of JKR killing 
Voldemort in a way that releases everyone from guilt.  I recently read 
three books by P. D. James (excellent British mystery novelist) and 
noticed a trend that really bothered me:  in every one, the killer 
died at the end, either by an accident or suicide.  In one book it 
wouldn't be so noticeable, but in three novels, in a single volume, no 
less, it really stood out.  I felt as if James was trying to have her 
cake and eat it too.  She wanted to satisfy the blood-lust of readers 
and/or the readers' sense that justice isn't done unless the killer 
dies; without capital punishment, she couldn't just wrap it up with a 
"and he was found guilty and hanged"; and she didn't want our hero to 
have blood on his hands.  So she found easy-to-swallow ways to kill 
the guilty.  (In contrast, Dorothy L. Sayers has a killer get executed 
and shows the agony of the detective, who goes about getting people 
convicted but can't bear the guilt of their then being executed.  
Much, much better!  but I take it the death penalty has been repealed 
in England since her day.)

All of which is to say that if it is unpleasant to think of Voldemort 
getting his just desserts, which I think it is, then I want JKR to 
make us deal with it, and not sugar-coat it by having him die in some 
more palatable way.  I would be disappointed by a scenario in which 
he's standing on the Astronomy tower when it crumbles to dust from 
his own curses, carrying his screaming form with it, yada yada-- a way 
to give us all the thrill of seeing him die without anyone we care 
about having to soil his/her hands.  To me this poses real moral 
implications for the readership: as if we really have executed someone 
without acknowledging the weight of that responsibility.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------------
   "See, there was this wizard who went . . . bad.  As bad as 
you could go.  Worse.  Worse than worse.   His name was . . ."
   Hagrid gulped, but no words came out.
   "Could you write it down?" Harry suggested.
   "Nah--can't spell it."
                              -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
--------------------------------------------------------------




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Fri Mar  9 23:18:01 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:18:01 -0000
Subject: HP in my library's  Adult Fiction 
Message-ID: <98bob9+5ojr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14011

After school today (a teacher inservice day in which I never once had 
to remind children to walk in the halls or keep all 4 legs of their 
chairs on the floor) I went to the county library to get something to 
read while keeping my HP-longing at bay.  While standing in line to 
check out my pile of books, I overheard the woman in front of me ask 
about the HP books.  Amazingly enough, I became an unrepentant 
eavesdropper!:^) The librarian did the computer search while the lady 
asked which book was first "because I'd like to read them in order."  
I piped up with the information as well as the obligatory, "You won't 
be able to stop once you start reading them."  By this time Marian 
the Librarian (not her real name, I'm sure, but a little levity makes 
the day pass by lightly) reported that most of them were checked out 
over in the children's section, but there might be one over in the 
*adult* fiction section.  The adult fiction section!  See, Penny, the 
NY Times may not think that HP belongs on the regular bestseller 
list, but the Anderson, SC library thinks it belongs in the "regular" 
fiction section!

Trina




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Fri Mar  9 23:30:11 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:30:11 -0000
Subject: Sirius hiding place
In-Reply-To: <98aad0+pgm0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98bp23+b31r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14012

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
>  In an online chat ms rowling were asked where sirius and buckbek 
> headed when escaping from hogwarts. she answered (with the usual 
> smiley) "Somewhere nice and warm :)".
>  Surely that could have been just a reference to a fireplace and 
some 
> hot chocolate (after a truly hard day). but it could also have been 
> mentioned as a hint to the location of sirius hiding place (it 
would 
> have been a la rowling). 
> so - it could be located in south, or in some specific place, 
famous 
> for its warmth/heat.
> 
> that I had to get out :)  
> /jennifer

The previous two responses to this post cover my thoughts on this 
location being someplace tropical, because of the flashy birds Sirius 
used to send messages to Harry.  However, I've always thought there 
was the possibility that Sirius hooked up with someone sympathetic to 
him during this period, simply because he has no wand, so is somewhat 
hindered in his wizarding abilities, and no money.  Since his 
physical condition improved, one would think he was eating at least 2 
square meals a day. And he obviously has parchment, quills and ink 
handy...maybe he just hung around the wizard version of a tropical 
Club Med...

Marianne
"This is a late parrot!"  Monty Python; The Parrot Sketch
 




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 23:32:09 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:32:09 -0000
Subject: Four Elements/Houses, was Raven vs. Eagle
In-Reply-To: <3AA6EF46.2C829397@texas.net>
Message-ID: <98bp5p+raga@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14013

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Margaret Dean wrote:
> 
> > Just off the top of my head and without doing any research, I'd 
peg
> > them:
> >
> > Lion/Gryffindor/fire
> > Eagle/Ravenclaw/air
> > Badger/Hufflepuff/earth
> > Snake/Slytherin/water
> 
> Well, yeah, that's how I'd ranked them, but the lion and snake's
> associations seem a bit shaky to me, and I'd wanted to shore them up
> with something. Any bells ringing for anyone out there? Because a 
snake
> is a creature of the earth, too, when you think about it, although 
JKR
> did have the entrance to the Chamber through a bathroom, via the 
pipes.
> And bravery as a main characteristic sits well with fire, yes? Other
> thoughts? Had this been discussed before and done to death before I
> joined and started my chart-topping voluminous posting?
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

*blinks*

I always rated them the same way- in fact, I did so in my fanfic- but 
yes, serpents are often creatures of water in mythology... and the 
rubies that represent Gryffindor suggest fire.

- Celeste




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar  9 23:40:28 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:40:28 -0000
Subject: HP in my library's  Adult Fiction
In-Reply-To: <98bob9+5ojr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98bplc+i10g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14014

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
> After school today (a teacher inservice day in which I never once 
had 
> to remind children to walk in the halls or keep all 4 legs of their 
> chairs on the floor) I went to the county library to get something 
to 
> read while keeping my HP-longing at bay.  While standing in line to 
> check out my pile of books, I overheard the woman in front of me 
ask 
> about the HP books.  Amazingly enough, I became an unrepentant 
> eavesdropper!:^) The librarian did the computer search while the 
lady 
> asked which book was first "because I'd like to read them in 
order."  
> I piped up with the information as well as the obligatory, "You 
won't 
> be able to stop once you start reading them."  By this time Marian 
> the Librarian (not her real name, I'm sure, but a little levity 
makes 
> the day pass by lightly) reported that most of them were checked 
out 
> over in the children's section, but there might be one over in the 
> *adult* fiction section.  The adult fiction section!  See, Penny, 
the 
> NY Times may not think that HP belongs on the regular bestseller 
> list, but the Anderson, SC library thinks it belongs in 
the "regular" 
> fiction section!
> 
> Trina


One of our local libraries (I have 2 because, although my mailing 
address is Charleston, I live in Dorchester County) has the books 
shelved with the adult fiction; they also have it in their children's 
section (several copies of each book, btw).  Our other library has it 
in the children's section.  Go figure.

Parker




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 01:09:11 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:09:11 -0000
Subject: Portrait photograph of Harry
In-Reply-To: <20010309115835.29830.qmail@web10805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <98burn+9fui@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14015

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Christian Stub? <pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:
> 
> http://www.hpgalleries.com/mgallery23.htm
> 
> you will find a large portrait photograph of Daniel Radcliffe as 
Harry.  Somehow that
> picture is just perfectly Harry, IMO.  Something for your desktop 
wallpapers, perhaps? 

Ok, "set as wallpaper". Guess I'll have to stop turning my comp off 
whenever I'm away from it!

>  Now, would somebody *please* get that boy a pair
> of longer trousers!

Actually they're already a lot longer than I'd expected; call me an 
American with a dated view of the UK (or one who's noticed how dated 
the wizard world is), but I was picturing Harry in shorts and 
kneesocks under those robes.
 Too bad- one of those *huge* socks would've made an excellent "book 
cover" at the end of CoS!




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Mar 10 01:50:19 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:50:19 -0000
Subject: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
In-Reply-To: <98bj0m+hjd7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98c18r+goqe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14016

>I love Harry so.  It would break my heart if he had to die.

Truer words never spoken!  Only at this site would I proudly admit how 
in love with Harry Potter I am (and I mean Harry Potter himself).  The 
thought of Harry dying is painful (and JKR herself has alluded to 
that) and might change my feelings about the books (as I did when I 
read the last installment of the Narnia series - I think I've even 
mentioned that before).  So I won't dwell on the death of Harry.

I think something that Harry has had to deal with in his life so far 
is GUILT.  He is alive when his parents aren't, he has money when his 
best friend doesn't, and he had to witness the murder of an innocent 
and very good person while he, once again, lived.  JKR could very well 
use that angle, by having someone important to Harry die to save him, 
yet again, from Voldie.  Dumbledore (the only wizard other than Harry 
Voldie is afraid of) is my favorite (and also heartbreaking) 
candidate.  Yet there is another that is quite wonderfully 
complicated...

Severus Snape.  We know he is NOT bad, yet we all love to hate him for 
and with Harry.  Wouldn't it just blow us away if Snapey was the one 
to help vanquish Voldemort after all - and lose his own life in the 
process?  Just like we all dislike certain people but wouldn't wish 
death on them, Harry would have a lot to deal with if Snape died while  
helping Harry.

Somehow, I can't see Ron or Hermione dying - neither is powerful 
enough to really take on Voldie - though Hermione comes close.  And we 
know Pettigrew still owes Harry big time, and we also kinda know he'll 
pay up.  

I'll stick with Snape, thank you very much.

--Jenny from Ravenclaw
--61% obsessed (still not enough for me)
--100% R/He shipper

"Percy wouldn't recognize a joke if it danced naked in front of him 
wearing Dobby's tea 




From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET  Sat Mar 10 02:24:15 2001
From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 21:24:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Avada Kedavra Filk
References: <98bfja+cnkm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000901c0a909$36057120$64851440@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14017

I can sing this one!!!!!

----- Original Message -----
From: <foxmoth at qnet.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 3:48 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Avada Kedavra Filk


> Avada Kedavra
> A filk by Pippin, to the tune of Hakuna Matata, from the Lion King.
>
> Enter Voldemort, Lucius Malfoy, and Draco
> Voldemort (spoken):
> Avada Kedavera!
> What a wonderful curse
> Lucius:(spoken)
> Avada Kedavra
>
> (sung)
> Can't do any worse
>
> Voldemort:
> We're unforgiven
> for the rest of our days.
>
> Voldemort and Lucius:
> It's our morals free
> philosophy.
> Avada Kedavra!
>
> Voldie:
> When I was a young Hogwart
> Lucius :
> When he was a young Hogwart
> He found his destiny with a certain basilisk
> He could clear the school of Mudbloods
> But it was a frightful risk
> Voldie:
> I'm only half blood
> Though I  am Slytherin
> But my intimate friends
> Knew I stood to win
>
> (Spoken)
> Voldemort:
> But  oh the shame
> Lucius:
> He was ashamed
> Voldemort:
> Thought of changing my name
> Lucius:
> You Must Not Be Named
> Voldemort:
> Every time that it hit
>      And I felt like --
> Lucius:
> Hey Voldie, not in front of the kid
> Voldemort:
> Oh, sorry
>
> (All sing)
> Avada Kedavera
> What a wonderful phrase
> Avada Kedavra
> Ain't no passing craze
> Annihilation
> In a flash of green haze
> It's our Muggle free
> philosophy
> Avada Kedavra
> Avada Kedavra, etc.
>
> (Voldemort, Lucius and Draco draw their wands, form a conga line and
> exit, chanting)
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From rainesj at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 02:27:33 2001
From: rainesj at hotmail.com (Justin Raines)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:27:33 -0000
Subject: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
In-Reply-To: <98c18r+goqe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98c3el+dlml@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14018

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> >I love Harry so.  It would break my heart if he had to die.
> 
> Truer words never spoken!  Only at this site would I proudly admit 
how 
> in love with Harry Potter I am (and I mean Harry Potter himself).  
The 
> thought of Harry dying is painful (and JKR herself has alluded to 
> that) and might change my feelings about the books (as I did when I 
> read the last installment of the Narnia series - I think I've even 
> mentioned that before).  So I won't dwell on the death of Harry.
> 
> I think something that Harry has had to deal with in his life so 
far 
> is GUILT.  He is alive when his parents aren't, he has money when 
his 
> best friend doesn't, and he had to witness the murder of an 
innocent 
> and very good person while he, once again, lived.  JKR could very 
well 
> use that angle, by having someone important to Harry die to save 
him, 
> yet again, from Voldie.  Dumbledore (the only wizard other than 
Harry 
> Voldie is afraid of) is my favorite (and also heartbreaking) 
> candidate.  Yet there is another that is quite wonderfully 
> complicated...
> 
> Severus Snape.  We know he is NOT bad, yet we all love to hate him 
for 
> and with Harry.  Wouldn't it just blow us away if Snapey was the 
one 
> to help vanquish Voldemort after all - and lose his own life in the 
> process?  Just like we all dislike certain people but wouldn't wish 
> death on them, Harry would have a lot to deal with if Snape died 
while  
> helping Harry.
> 
> Somehow, I can't see Ron or Hermione dying - neither is powerful 
> enough to really take on Voldie - though Hermione comes close.  And 
we 
> know Pettigrew still owes Harry big time, and we also kinda know 
he'll 
> pay up.  
> 
> I'll stick with Snape, thank you very much.

I agree completly with these theories.  Harry's humility is one of 
his most endearing qualities, despite his fame.  I think that this 
trait comes from his feelings of guilt and remorse from the reasons 
you mentioned.  I think you are absolutly correct about Snape, 
Wormtail and Dumbledore being involved in Harry's salvation, and I am 
waiting to see how it will all play out.  There are several different 
possibilities, but think one or more of them might have to die to 
save Harry.  I can't really see him killing Voldie, or being killed 
by him.  Harry symbolizes Hope and Innocence in these books and I 
find it difficult to believe JKR will let him be killed...

Justin




From margdean at erols.com  Sat Mar 10 02:55:30 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:55:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
References: <98c18r+goqe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AA997A2.C414008D@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14019

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:
 
> I think something that Harry has had to deal with in his life so far
> is GUILT.  He is alive when his parents aren't, he has money when his
> best friend doesn't, and he had to witness the murder of an innocent
> and very good person while he, once again, lived.  JKR could very well
> use that angle, by having someone important to Harry die to save him,
> yet again, from Voldie.  Dumbledore (the only wizard other than Harry
> Voldie is afraid of) is my favorite (and also heartbreaking)
> candidate.  Yet there is another that is quite wonderfully
> complicated...
> 
> Severus Snape.  We know he is NOT bad, yet we all love to hate him for
> and with Harry.  Wouldn't it just blow us away if Snapey was the one
> to help vanquish Voldemort after all - and lose his own life in the
> process?  Just like we all dislike certain people but wouldn't wish
> death on them, Harry would have a lot to deal with if Snape died while
> helping Harry.

Oh, I =like= this!  I like this a =lot.=  The more so because
Snape would thus be canceling out his own burdensome (as he sees
it) debt to Harry's father . . . and he's also a character who
wouldn't necessarily =mind= the fact that he was laying a
certain, similar amount of guilt on Harry.  (Well, he
wouldn't...)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 03:21:44 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 03:21:44 -0000
Subject: Snape the martyr? (was Re: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer)
In-Reply-To: <3AA997A2.C414008D@erols.com>
Message-ID: <98c6k8+67b7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14020

Who wrote this? (I forgot to check):
"Yet there is another that is quite wonderfully
complicated...

"Severus Snape.  We know he is NOT bad, yet we all love to hate him 
for and with Harry.  Wouldn't it just blow us away if Snapey was the 
one to help vanquish Voldemort after all - and lose his own life in 
the process?  Just like we all dislike certain people but wouldn't 
wish death on them, Harry would have a lot to deal with if Snape died 
while helping Harry."

--Wow, this is really interesting. I REALLY like this theory. Harry 
does struggle with his guilt, and that is a real problem for him. 
What would make Harry more guilty, killing Voldemort, or say having 
Dumbledore die saving him from Voldy? And if Snape were to die to 
save Harry (as horrible as it sounds) would he be sort of, glad. Glad 
in a sense that he didn't have to die, and neither did oh say Ron, 
Hermione, Hagrid or someone else.  The thought of the adult and 
person (aside from Draco) that Harry hates the most giving his life 
for Harry, and how he'd react to that is something that could bring 
about a lot of possibilities. However this would probably be in book 
seven and so there might no be a lot of time to explore Harry's 
reactions.

Scott




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 03:37:48 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 03:37:48 -0000
Subject: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
In-Reply-To: <98bmul+orbn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98c7ic+7h57@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14021

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> I get queasy in a different way at the thought of JKR killing 
> Voldemort in a way that releases everyone from guilt. 
<snip>
I felt as if James was trying to have her 
> cake and eat it too.  She wanted to satisfy the blood-lust of 
readers 
> and/or the readers' sense that justice isn't done unless the killer 
> dies; without capital punishment, she couldn't just wrap it up with 
a 
> "and he was found guilty and hanged"; and she didn't want our hero 
to 
> have blood on his hands.  So she found easy-to-swallow ways to kill 
> the guilty.  (In contrast, Dorothy L. Sayers has a killer get 
executed 
> and shows the agony of the detective, who goes about getting people 
> convicted but can't bear the guilt of their then being executed.  
> Much, much better!  but I take it the death penalty has been 
repealed 
> in England since her day.)
> 

My goodness, yes. This was always happening in those books. Sometimes 
we wouldn't care much about the executed person, but some of those 
endings were.....[ouch]. Lord Peter's one of my favorite recurring 
literary characters too. He *really* deals with the guilt aspect of 
it all....he even has to agonize about the fact that sometimes his 
stirring things up causes suffering. Er, (steering on topic), kind of 
like how Harry still has survivors guilt, and will probably feel more 
in the future if other characters die to save him. 

<snip>To me this poses real moral 
> implications for the readership: as if we really have executed 
someone 
> without acknowledging the weight of that responsibility.
> 

Yes. Although Voldemort lacks enough redeeming characteristics for us 
to really feel squicky about his messy death, I think it would fit in 
with the tone of the book not to have the end be unyieldingly sunny. 

(What's that sad part in GoF where Harry reflects on all the human 
relationships blasted because Voldemort, both directly and 
indirectly?)

Charmian





From rainesj at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 03:58:34 2001
From: rainesj at hotmail.com (Justin Raines)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 03:58:34 -0000
Subject: Harry's Scar
Message-ID: <98c8pa+gfoe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14022

Has anyone ever noticed that the shape of Harry's scar, often refered 
to as lightning shaped, could have a duel meaning?  I just had an 
epiphany that it could mean something extra.  I found that it also 
could be representative of the old Anglo-Saxon rule called Sigel.  
This ancient rune symbolized Victory.  It is Rune of Will and Self-
Confidence. Provides the power and the path to follow to make 
positive changes in life, in the position shown on Harry's head.  It 
is supposedly a rune of great power and strength.  Another funny 
thing about this rune is that they usually have duel meanings, one 
positive and one negative, but his rune only has a positive meaning.  
Could this just be a coincidence, or perhaps something more?  

Justin




From editor at texas.net  Sat Mar 10 04:27:32 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 22:27:32 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
References: <98c18r+goqe@eGroups.com> <3AA997A2.C414008D@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3AA9AD33.C12C17A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14023

Margaret Dean wrote:

> > Severus Snape.  We know he is NOT bad, yet we all love to hate him
> for
> > and with Harry.  Wouldn't it just blow us away if Snapey was the one
>
> > to help vanquish Voldemort after all - and lose his own life in the
> > process?  Just like we all dislike certain people but wouldn't wish
> > death on them, Harry would have a lot to deal with if Snape died
> while
> > helping Harry.
>
> Oh, I =like= this!  I like this a =lot.=  The more so because Snape
> would thus be canceling out his own burdensome (as he sees it) debt to
> Harry's father . . . and he's also a character who wouldn't
> necessarily =mind= the fact that he was laying a certain, similar
> amount of guilt on Harry.  (Well, he wouldn't...)

I will add to this. I was impressed, Jenny, because as I was reading
your post I was thinking "Snape!" and then you went and said it. Great
minds, I guess.

I still favor the theory that Snape loved Lily, in some way, some
fashion, spoken or no, whatever, and that the tangled mess of past
associations in part accounts for the way he treats Harry. Snape's
actual actions, removed from the manner in which he performs them, often
are protective of Harry.

I think there's loads more reason for Snape to watch out for Harry than
an old debt to James (which was repaid, anyway, in book 1, and could be
considered as no longer applying). I think Snape hates Harry because
Lily would be alive if not for him. But he protects Harry because he's
Lily's son, and Lily loved Harry, died to keep him alive, and clearly
would have wanted him safe. Snape, however, doesn't mind trying to get
Harry expelled because safe does not equal happy, and also because he
does hate Harry because he's James' son, too.

What all this boils down to, is that I can see Snape making the
sacrifice for Harry, for two reasons. One, the whole Lily connection,
which just *feels* so valid to me. I've known people of Snapelike
intensity, and it just works; they love with a passion, they hold
grudges forever, they are incredibly loyal, they think they act very
simply and straightforwardly but they confuse everyone, because they
neglect to inform others of their internal codes and parameters. I think
Dumbledore knows Snape's internal code, and details of Snape's past,
which is why he trusts him. I think precious few others will ever know.
But in any case, it would take more than a resented debt to James, or
even the ultimate goal of Good, to make Snape die for Harry. But an old
love, stronger and on a deeper level than "schoolboy grudges" (as Lupin
put it) could bring Snape to it.

Second reason--Snape is coming to see Harry as his own person. For
whatever reason, Snape has never given Harry a chance to be Harry. To
Snape, he's James' son, he's a reminder of his unhappy school days, he's
a reminder of his old master who did something Snape cannot forgive,
he's probably a reminder of why he's at Hogwarts doing a job he patently
dislikes, etc. As I've put it before, Harry is a walking mass of
associations for Snape. BUT. I think the unreadable expression on
Snape's face as he looked at Harry at the close of book 4 is the herald
of a change. I don't think their relationship will get any better. But I
think Snape will begin to be able to see Harry and Harry's strengths on
their own merits. Snape is not a person who will ever apologize for
anything. Snape is not really someone who will even admit misjudgement
unless forced to. But he is someone who will repay. I think when push
comes to shove, Snape will realize that Harry is not James, never even
knew James, and will act accordingly.

In additional support for this, evidence suggests that Snape will be in
a unique position to aid Harry, if he indeed returns to Voldemort's
service at Dumbledore's bidding.

--Amanda (you all knew I'd be chiming in, right? Snape, after all....)

You will not explain yourself, for you will see no need.
Some will love and follow you, and you will learn to lead.
Some will find you difficult and hard to understand.
You will be as intricate as any simple man.

---from a poem to my then-unborn son, likening him to his father; it
seemed to fit


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 05:24:22 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:24:22 -0000
Subject: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
In-Reply-To: <98bmul+orbn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98cdq6+1he6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14024

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> 
> Really interesting question, Kimberly!  
> 
> I also get a little queasy at the thought of Harry killing 
> Voldemort--but I'm also intrigued at the possibility of seeing 
Harry 
> deal with being a killer.  I think his refusal to kill Pettigrew 
(and 
> Sirius, for that matter) shows that he wouldn't kill anyone except 
> with extreme reluctance and if given no alternative that he could 
see. 
>  He would suffer a lot if he killed even Voldemort, I think, and in 
my 
> perverse way, I'd like to see that suffering.
> 
> I get queasy in a different way at the thought of JKR killing 
> Voldemort in a way that releases everyone from guilt.  

<snip>

> All of which is to say that if it is unpleasant to think of 
Voldemort 
> getting his just desserts, which I think it is, then I want JKR to 
> make us deal with it, and not sugar-coat it by having him die in 
some 
> more palatable way.  I would be disappointed by a scenario in which 
> he's standing on the Astronomy tower when it crumbles to dust from 
> his own curses, carrying his screaming form with it, yada yada-- a 
way 
> to give us all the thrill of seeing him die without anyone we care 
> about having to soil his/her hands.  To me this poses real moral 
> implications for the readership: as if we really have executed 
someone 
> without acknowledging the weight of that responsibility.
> 

Drat Amy!

What are you thinking, being so sensible?  No fair!

Of course, you're right.  I suppose I wouldn't want to see a scenario 
where Voldemort inadvertently splats himself - saving the day and 
releasing everyone from responsibility, or has an emotional 
breakthrough and forms a wizard chapter of Evil Overlords Anonymous, 
complete with amends letters to nearly every family in England.

I guess part of my problem is my own inner conflict with the idea of 
capital punishment, which, in the case of your average heinous 
murderer who might somehow be redeemable, sort of removes any 
possibility for repentance/redemption.  I am not a vocal opponent of 
capital punishment, as I admittedly don't fully grasp all of the 
issues involved, but I find the idea terribly upsetting, from a lot 
of angles, as even with someone like Voldemort, I don't want to be 
responsible for deciding if that person's life still has value - if 
they are redeemable or not.

Then, when you take that a step further, and instead of capital 
punishment, the responsiblity for which at least can be passed off on 
the governmental body in charge, you have an individual...
I have to admit, in all honesty, that given the choice, I'd far 
rather die to protect others than kill to do so, and I have serious 
doubts as to whether, if the situation ever presented itself, I'd be 
capable of killing even someone like Voldemort.  

So, all that said, when I think of Harry, who is still a child, and 
has already been subjected to entirely too much, who lives daily with 
the fact that his mother would be alive if she hadn't chosen to die 
in order to protect him, who has seen Cedric die too, simply for 
standing too close to him...  I just imagine that he must already 
feel like he's responsible for a few deaths.  For him to have to 
*choose* to kill someone, even the one who really *is* responsible 
for all those deaths... it's just too much to ask of one kid.

I just keep coming back to the following:

-Harry saved Peter, saying he doesn't reckon his father would want 
Remus and Sirius to become killers because of the little rat.

-Sirius (maybe?) and Dumbledore indicated that it was wrong for the 
MoM to allow the auror's to use the unforgiveable curses on dark 
wizards, and that evil for the greater good is still evil (or at 
least that's my interpretation).

In light of the above, I'm hoping that there's some secret option D, 
where nobody has to kill him, and they can somehow squibify him or 
something, so that he is no longer a threat.  

kimberly 
who just caught herself praying for the mental/emotional health of 
fictional characters, and who therefore she probably be praying for 
her own.




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 06:32:55 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 06:32:55 -0000
Subject: Avada Kedavra Filk
In-Reply-To: <98bfja+cnkm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98chqn+mpie@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14025

> 	Annihilation
> 	In a flash of green haze

Just pulling one of my occasional unlurks to say that I love this 
filk, especially the 'annihilation' line! I really enjoy all the 
filks that are written, so keep up the good (and often very funny) 
work.

--> Sam





From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar 10 07:06:51 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:06:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
References: <98bj0m+hjd7@eGroups.com> <3AA9591D.FECBFEC@erols.com>
Message-ID: <004701c0a930$b18b61c0$2014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14026

It could be that someone else will kill
Voldemort in order to save Harry, and it wouldn't entirely
surprise me if =that= person died in the process.

Care to line up a few candidates?  <grinning evilly>
--Margaret Dean

I was going to say Dumbledore, Hagrid, or Sirius, but I think that all three
of those are too obvious. I think JKR has been building Snape up for the
part. I think she wants us to miss the forest for the trees, and hate or
mistrust Snape. Then, in the end, he will reveal his true self and save
Harry, while defeating the Evil Lord Voldemort.
Doreen




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar 10 07:26:33 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:26:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
References: <98c18r+goqe@eGroups.com> <3AA997A2.C414008D@erols.com> <3AA9AD33.C12C17A@texas.net>
Message-ID: <007601c0a933$70fe15a0$2014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14027

Margaret Dean wrote:

> > Severus Snape.  We know he is NOT bad, yet we all love to hate him
> for
> > and with Harry.  Wouldn't it just blow us away if Snapey was the one
>
> > to help vanquish Voldemort after all - and lose his own life in the
> > process?

My apologies to Margaret Dean, who stated what I felt, so much more
eloquently. I did not read your letter until after I answered that question,
myself.
Doreen




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar 10 07:47:43 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:47:43 -0800
Subject: Gryffin - Four Elements - Sports - Slytherin - Lily - Snape
Message-ID: <3AA9DC1E.D47F6653@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14028

Amanda wrote:
> Griffins more correctly are the front half of an eagle and the
> back half of a lion. Their forward limbs are the legs and claws of an
> eagle, and they have wings. They do have tufty feathery ears, though.

Just as tigers (500 lb stripy pussy cats with big fangs and claws) don't
look anything like tygres (heraldic monsters), so feathery furry
heraldic griffins disguise the fact that gryphons were really dinosaurs,
Oviraptors from the Flaming Cliffs area (in Altai Mountains IIRC) in
Mongolia....  Gold nuggets and fossils erode out of the windworn
cliffsides, some of the oviraptor fossils are found nowdays sitting on
their eggs in their nests (therefore the name 'egg-thief' when it was
not known that the eggs were their own), the Mongolians were perfectly
capable of recognizing nesting like a bird, huge beak and huge claws,
and quadruped bone structure. And it was up there on the cliff where it
couldn't go without wings... so they told themselves they were lucky
that they didn't stumble over the LIVE ones and told the Scythians who
traded to the Black Sea Greeks  (and some people to the east who traded
to China) that only very special people could pick up the gold where it
was scattered on the ground, because it was guarded by dangerous
gryphons (named, it says, from the Greek word for 'grabber' because of
those claws). This doesn't have to be in the OT group until Monday.

Btw, I am for no canonical reason convinced that Godric Gryffindor's
name had nothing to do with any golden griffin (maybe a red griffin:
Dai?), but actually he was a Welshman named Gryffydd Glyndwr and the
Sais couldn't pronounce his name right so they called him Godric
Gryffindor and he put up with it. Long time members of the group will
wearily recognize the beginning of my oft-repeated rant about the
ethnicity of the Founders.

Amanda Lewanski and Margaret Dean wrote:
> Lion/Gryffindor/fire
> Eagle/Ravenclaw/air
> Badger/Hufflepuff/earth
> Snake/Slytherin/water

I mouthed off at length about the Elements-Houses back when this club
was on Yahoo. Check HPfGU-Archives post # 2802 and 2638 and hpa post #
(looks like 1423, but I can't' read my own writing). Courage-Fire,
Intellectualism-Air, Loyalty/Patience/Hard Work-Earth and
Deviousness-Water are all fitting assignments (devious water, it's very
good at finding the loophole in any obstacle that was put in its path),
altho' I am both a Scorpio and a Water being and resent JKR choosing one
Element to be Evil and the others to be Good.

Fire-red, Air-blue, Earth-yellow, Water-green are the colors assigned
(to those Houses according to canon) to the Elements by some Wiccan
trads I know, altho' there are many different possible assignments of
colors to Elements. The Four Elements come from ancient Greeks
philosophers and were part of science and medicine as well as magic and
philosophy until WELL INTO Christian times, so they are NOT in HP as a
Wiccan reference.

Paula Gryffindor wings909 (are you Paula Leiberman?) wrote:
> Maybe one day in the future, we might actually be
> able to PLAY [Quidditch] instead of reading about it.

One of the Stephanies on this list is already playing Quidditch. See
post 9216 for Backyard Quidditch (which uses a trampoline to make the
broomstick-riding players fly).

Scott wrote:
> So do you think there are other sports we don't know of  yet,
> or is Quidditch it? Do you think that the kids ever play a good
> ol' game of Rugby?

Rena answered:
>I think there could be hippogriff (sp?) racing, (comparable to horse
>  racing), watergames/swimming, (snip)
> Even in Quidditch the wizards try to use spells (e.g. the bludger
> which focused on Harry),

I think they MUST play some kind of football (rugby, soccer, or
american) as well as running footraces, climbing trees, and brawling:
healthy kids who are full of energy want to do physical things, not just
magical things. For older kids, there could be HORSE riding and racing:
most modern Muggles ride horses for fun not for transportation. I
believe there is broomstick racing, and I like the idea of broomstick
obstacle racing that I learned in a fanfic. The use of spells in sports
is Cheating and should be stopped by the referee in official
competition, or by running to parents in childish games. The Bludger
that was aimed at Harry was trying to murder him, not just to win the
match.

btw, on the matter of what Sirius did between PoA and GoF, I think he
got a lot of outdoor exercise: walking, running, swimming, rockclimbing
(mostly solitary outdoor exercise, and who really believes that Sirius
wouldn't be so foolish as to go rockclimbing without a buddy?). Most
people hearing of that would think that he simply missed the outdoors
after so many years locked in a cell, and he would tell anyone who asked
that he needed to get really good at running, swimming, and climbing in
case he ever needed to escape from Azkaban again, but if Remus were
around, he would secretly know that Sirius' real goal was to get his
beautiful figure back (and he doesn't want to admit to being so vain,
which is why he doesn't work out with weights: motive too obvious).

Persephone Kate Slytherin wrote:
>  Also, it's strange that 'all' Death Eaters, 'cept Wormtail, are
> Slytherins.  That seams improbable that they are all Slytherins.

Agree! If all Death Eaters were Slytherins, it would have been a lot
easier for Arthur Weasley to have known whom he could or couldn't trust
during the Bad Times.

> I think that the Griffyndors are made out to be the brave heroes
> in the book and the Slytherins are the evil bad guys.  This in its
> self seems wrong because most of the traits of the Griffyndors
> are rather impulsive, they tend to do things without thinking, but
> because they are brave, they're good.  And the Slytherins are more
> ambitious and cunning, which seams to be a bad trait.

Yes. We are shown a world in which all Gryffindors are good and
good-looking and all Slytherins are evil and (except for Draco) ugly,
because we are shown it from Harry's and JKR's POV, and they both are
Gryffindors, and there is a traditional, perhaps instinctive, enmity
between Gryffindors and Slytherins. If JKR were an outsider instead of a
Gryffindor, she might blow Harry's mind by revealing that some
Slytherins are virtuous and even heroic, just as she revealed that Snape
is on the Light Side and saving Harry's life. Mind you, I do believe old
Salazar must have been evil to have hidden a basilisk in the basement.

Christian Stubo wrote post # 39000, a round enough number to be worthy
of this lovely post on heraldry, biohazardous foodstuffs, and
marvelously named warSHIPs, especially HMS Gay Viking.

Vlatka wrote:
> I would greatly appreciate if anyone can send me
> more links to similar thought provoking reviews

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/ESSAYS%20-%20Peg%20Kerr/

That's the Folder in the Files section of this egroup for Peg Kerr's
essays on the Seven Deadly Sins and Seven Heavenly Virtues in relation
to HP.

Penny wrote:
> Neil may understand.  *I* do not.  The shipping posts are clearly
> labelled (95% of the time)

Well, I admit I was expressing negative emotion rather than making a
constructive suggestion. More negative emotion: laboring through the
quarrels of the shippers made me wish that Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny,
and Draco will ALL die in Book 7, so that ALL shippers will be
disappointed.

However, it is true that good subject lines don't do me a whole lot of
good as I read the posts on the website, by clicking the NEXT button,
and the website's NEXT button doesn't sort posts by subject line as a
good e-mail pgm does. In theory, I could look at the subject line and
immediately click NEXT again, but sometimes it takes significant time
for each post to come up...

Margaret Dean wrote:
> Though it's surprising, when you come to think about it, how
> little =else= the Dursleys managed to beat out of Harry, (snip)
> So . . . was Lily's love protecting him from evils other than
> Voldemort's?  Did he (being magical), somehow "know" throughout
> his childhood that someone did indeed love him, though none of
> the living, breathing people around him ever showed it?

In my baseless opinion, oh yes indeed. Lily in her death managed not
only to shelter baby Harry with her body or levitate him aside or
something (yes, it was not moving him physically out of the line of the
curse that saved him, but surely it would have been maternal instinct to
do so) but also to put an image of herself into his mind, an image of a
loving mother who would hug him when he was particularly miserable with
the Dursleys and whisper to him that TV and books and school lessons
were telling the truth when they said there were better places to live,
and who made him resist the Imperius Curse. In paraphrase, when "Moody"
put the Imperius Curse on him, he felt all muddled and cozy and was
about to obey when A VOICE IN HIS HEAD said No.

JKR might believe that she represented Harry's own thought as a voice in
his head because that is an old literary cliche (and I myself usually
think in spoken words, i.e. voices, usually my own), but I believe it
was really Lily's voice. I just realized this minute that that would
explain why we see Harry thinking about and wishing for James so much
more than for Lily: Lily in his head was wishing for James, not for
herself.

Eccleston wrote:
> In reality, in England, a child who was forced to sleep in a
> cupboard under the stairs and wear the clothes Harry does,
> would have ended up with Social Services getting interested.

In USA, sometimes prosperous suburban couples are able to keep extreme
child abuse concealed for a long time. Maybe even in England, the
Dursleys kept much of their treatment of Harry a secret.

Margaret Dean  wrote of Snape possibly dying to save Harry and defeat
Voldemort:
> The more so because Snape would thus be canceling out his own
> burdensome (as he sees it) debt to Harry's father . . . and he's also
> a character who wouldn't necessarily =mind= the fact that he was
> laying a certain, similar amount of guilt on Harry.

I think, unless Snape had a LOT of time to think about what he was
doing, he would not be thinking of that silly debt to Harry's father,
but rather of his duty to serve the Light, fight the Dark, and make
Dumbledore proud of him, and he would not be thinking of making Harry
feel guilty, but rather that death would release him from his own burden
of guilt. And horrible memories. And hated job.

Justin Raines wrote:
> as anyone ever noticed that the shape of Harry's scar, often refered
> to as lightning shaped, could have a dual meaning?  I just had an
> epiphany that it could mean something extra.  I found that it also
> could be representative of the old Anglo-Saxon rule called Sigel.
> This ancient rune symbolized Victory.  (snip)
> Another funny  thing about this rune is that they usually have dual
> meanings, one positive and one negative, but his rune only has a
> positive meaning.

I'm not up on Anglo-Saxon runes, but the related Norse rune named Sig (a
word for victory, used in names like Sig-fried), which sounds like S and
looks like a lightning bolt, was used in pairs as the logo of Hitler's
SS. I'd say that even if this rune originally had no negative meaning,
Hitler gave it one.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar 10 08:21:26 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 00:21:26 -0800
Subject: Fanfic by Catlady
Message-ID: <3AA9E405.45D463BD@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14029

I meant to hide this in my previous post, but forgot, even tho' I could
have disguised it as a reply: IIRC some kind person said they liked my
Snape story. In accordance with the space limitations of this group, I
have copied my stories from this group's Files/Fanfic/Fanfic by Catlady
folder to a folder in the HP Fanfiction group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_FanFiction/files/Catlady%27s%20Stories/

When I write new episodes, I will upload them to the HPff folder. The
stuff that is already in this group's file section, I will leave there
until it is deleted in a regular clean-up.
This doesn't have to go into the Announcements group until Monday.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 09:43:42 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:43:42 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
In-Reply-To: <98bdnj+mfrs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98ct0e+5eq4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14030


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 
>The marvelous cannot by definition be a part of everyday 
life, and 
> therefore stories of the marvelous must take place in a marvelous 
> milieu. If this milieu is supposed to have been produced by the 
> application of scientific understanding, then we have a science 
fiction story. 

Can the marvelous be "supposed to have been produced by the 
application of scientific undestanding"? It seems to me that by 
postulating the existence of a scientfic explanation you take the 
marvel out of the marvelous, don't you? I mean, we say of 
technological innovations "wow, its like a miracle!", but we do use 
"like" and not "is", because we are sure there is a scientific 
explanation even if we don't know what it is at the moment. But 
perhaps your "marvelous" is not the same as the "miraculous"?

> 
>The appetite for marvels has always been suspect, and this 
> suspicion extends to the literary critical establishment. The 
> practitioners of science fiction, which originated as a subgenre of 
> fantasy, therefore agitated to have their work considered 
> separately from the discredited fantasy genre. They wished to > 
escape the 'escapist' label attached to fantasy and graft > 
themselves onto the more academically respectable 'revelatory'  > 
branch of the lit-crit tree. 
> They claimed that science fiction stories were an attempt to 
> anticipate and reveal the effects of possible future technological 
> developments and so were not escapist at all.
>
<snip>
> 
>The Harry Potter stories are not science fiction. The whole 
point 
> of science is that it is discoverable, the essence of magic is that 
it 
> is not. (Aspiring fantasy writers are told over and over again by 
every 
> practitioner of the art that the one thing they must never do is 
> explain how the magic works.) The Potterverse never offers any kind 
of 
> scientific explanation for its magical devices, nor do the 
characters 
> presume that there is one. Therefore, while those devices are 
indeed 
> technology in the broader sense, they are not technological in the 
> sense which I would apply to science fiction.
> 	

I agree with this. But I would like to point that the question is 
exactly the "discoverability" of the laws of magic. If magic is 
conceived as a natural force of some kind ("the utility theory" in 
Ebony's quote) then presumably you can discover its laws. For 
instance (and as far as my limited knowledge goes), a lot of what we 
call magic in the middle ages was inseparable, at the time, from what 
we now call science. 
I do think, however, that if we look at the way 'magic' is conceived 
today (the way it's generally used), it is almost the antinomy of 
'science'. It refers to the (inherently) miraculous, the (inherently) 
unexplainable. From this point of view writers who use magic in its 
"utility" sense (natural force) are actually writing a fantasy, 
because they're depicting a world that is very essentially different 
from our own - a world where magic is explainable. This is rather off 
the top of my head. Ebony, if you read this, can you give a few 
examples of such books?
Harry Potter is also a fantasy for the reasons Pippin gave - the 
magic in HP is "magical" - unexplainable, unpredictable, and very 
clearly antithetic to science.

Naama, rambling away...






From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 09:59:11 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:59:11 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Request for information
References: <c1.c449660.27d98934@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014b01c0a948$cebce800$9f481c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14031

> Question: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and
Hermione
> during the last half of Goblet of Fire? I love your books, by the
way, and
> two of them I've read straight through cover to cover in under 24
hours.
> JKR: Well done on the reading speed! Yes, something's "going on,"
but Ron
> doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy.

O.K. I think this is totally up for interpretation in every direction
you want to take it whether that be pro or con something between Ron
and Hermione.

Rena
Gryffindor


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 10:42:17 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:42:17 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trailer, Shipping, Logo Poll and anything else I happen to think of
References: <F11SWTgZu6WY9IuXZ2y0000091e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <01fc01c0a94e$c8761920$9f481c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14032

> Media, it downloads to your computer as well. After you've watched
it, do a
> search for harry_potter_trailer_qt_hi.mov, and there you have it!
And I have
> to admit that Lynn told *me* how to do that, so maybe her house
should get
> the points :)

I tried that, but it didn't work. I did however manage to download the
trailer for quicktime from countingdown.com. Now I can watch them all
the time *s*

Rena



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Mar 10 11:38:21 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:38:21 -0000
Subject: from an AL poll today
Message-ID: <98d3nd+t7ao@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14033

If you want to guess an answer, put it on the HP_OT Chatter list here 
on yahoogroups:

Where will Harry Potter be in five years? 
 -- Starring in 'Welcome Back Potter' 
 -- Headlining a Las Vegas magic show where he turns Wayne Netwon into 
a Fig Newton 
 -- Star of his own Saturday morning cartoon 
 -- Signing a contract with NBC to start new sports league: XQuidditch 
 -- Starring opposite Britney Spears in 'When Harry Met Sally II' 




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Mar 10 12:07:28 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:07:28 -0000
Subject: Crossposting from the Announcements list
Message-ID: <98d5e0+64m4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14034

There will be an online chat with J K Rowling on Monday, March 12th 
 at 5:35 GMT (12:35 ET).  You can send in questions now - the e-mail 
address is - rnd at bbc.co.uk



Penny - shall we do question coordination again?
For the newbies, back in October, when JKR did a few online chats, we 
had a series of questions, which are now located at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Chat-related/QUESTIO
NS%20FOR%20JKR%20CHATS.htm - as you can see, most of them weren't 
answered, but some were. 
As members of the group submitted questions, we said "On behalf of the 
YahooGroup Harry Potter for Grownups, we wanted to know, [Insert 
Question Here]. 
I think that if people submit questions to the bbc chat, it would be 
great if they did it the same way. 

I plan to ask, of course, about Draco, in connection with evil, about 
Ron's birthday and about James' house. These aren't on the list, but 
they *should* be. 





From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sat Mar 10 12:17:06 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:17:06 -0000
Subject: Comic Relief-books (no spoilers)
Message-ID: <98d602+3qhk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14035

Well, I got my books in the mail today (along with my ECDL - all 
seven modules passed!) - seems the Norwegian Mail is a bit more 
efficient than the online book-store expected.  I have not really had 
a chance to read them yet (just a quick look-through), but of course, 
I will.  I will not say anything of them yet, waiting until March 
12th for the benefit of y'all, apart from the fact that they are 
funny, and there are things which *will* be subject to discussion - 
putting on my Trewlaney-hat, I can even predict that there may be 
things with which we will disagree.  I will also say that I think 
fanfic-writers will find these books very valuable aids.

Myself, I think I will probably need to get the Norwegian 
translations as well - just to compare and see if there are any 
particular Norwegian beasts whose English names I do not recognise.  
Ah - the troublesome life of an obsessed... ;-)

Best regards 
Christian Stub?




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 12:41:35 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:41:35 -0000
Subject: Snape/Pettigrew the martyr?
In-Reply-To: <98c6k8+67b7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98d7dv+imc8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14036

Scott wrote:

 > --Wow, this is really interesting. I REALLY like this theory. Harry 
> does struggle with his guilt, and that is a real problem for him. 
> What would make Harry more guilty, killing Voldemort, or say having 
> Dumbledore die saving him from Voldy? And if Snape were to die to 
> save Harry (as horrible as it sounds) would he be sort of, glad. 
Glad 
> in a sense that he didn't have to die, and neither did oh say Ron, 
> Hermione, Hagrid or someone else.  The thought of the adult and 
> person (aside from Draco) that Harry hates the most giving his life 
> for Harry, and how he'd react to that is something that could bring 
> about a lot of possibilities. However this would probably be in book 
> seven and so there might no be a lot of time to explore Harry's 
> reactions.

I like this theory as long as JKR, in keeping with my plea a few posts 
back, doesn't make it too easy for us.  I want us to really care about 
Snape before he goes to his noble death.  Among the folks on this 
list, I don't think it's a problem <g>; kids, however, may still hate 
Snape absolutely, so they wouldn't feel the loss.  But she has a long 
time to turn that around. 

Now, Snape has already repaid his debt to James by saving Harry from a 
very nasty death in his first Quidditch match.  But I wonder how much 
other guilt SS is carrying around from whatever he did while a DE.  
I'm reckoning he has a lot of sins on his conscience that may not feel 
redeemed until he's done something spectacular against V.  Even if he 
was the spy who tipped off J&L, whatever redemption that should have 
given him may have been diminished in his eyes by the fact that they 
were murdered anyway.  (Yet another reason for him to hate Sirius 
passionately . . . it's not just a grudge from their teenage years.  
He still hates him for betraying J&L, which, as far as we know, SS 
still believes he did right up to the second-to-last chapter of GF.)

I was happy Peter didn't repay his debt in book 4.  I'm betting he 
will in time, but I would've been disappointed if it happened too 
soon.  It seems much more realistic that he'd do Harry a lot more dirt 
before grappling with his conscience and standing up against 
Voldemort--and he sure has.  (PPs don't do too well in these books, do 
they?  Peter Pettigrew, Piers Polkiss--if Muggles could be 
Slytherins, he'd be one--Pansy Parkinson.  Poppy Pomfrey is the 
exception.  But I think of Poppy as a nickname for Mary or Margaret, 
not sure why.)

Amy Z
still hoping Snape survives Book 7

-------------------------------------------------------------
   "What's this?" he asked Aunt Petunia.  Her lips tightened
 as they always did if he dared to ask a question.
   "Your new school uniform," she said.
   Harry looked in the bowl again.
   "Oh," he said, "I didn't realize it had to be so wet."
                           -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
-------------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 12:49:51 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:49:51 -0000
Subject: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
In-Reply-To: <98c7ic+7h57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98d7tf+go05@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14037

I wrote:

>To me this poses real moral 
> > implications for the readership: as if we really have executed 
> someone 
> > without acknowledging the weight of that responsibility.
> > 
Charmian wrote:
 
> Yes. Although Voldemort lacks enough redeeming characteristics for 
us 
> to really feel squicky about his messy death, I think it would fit 
in 
> with the tone of the book not to have the end be unyieldingly sunny. 

In a way, that would be the problem.  In real life, before we execute 
people, we tend to dehumanize them; that's what I see in the press 
here around executions.  I'm not starting a death penalty debate; I'm 
just saying that whatever you think about the justice of execution, we 
all ought to acknowledge that with execution, we (all of us, in a 
democracy) are killing another human being.  Often, the language of 
"monster," "demon," "animal" for convicted murderers allows us to act 
as if we are just ridding the world of a problem, without any feeling 
of sorrow or remorse.  IMO, there should be some sadness even when a 
serial killer or genocidal ruler is put to death; there's always the 
tension between our need for justice (and perhaps revenge) and the 
hope that no one is utterly beyond redemption.

I like evil characters to have a scrap of humanity so that this 
tension remains.  So far, Voldemort doesn't really show that, except 
that we can sympathize with him in an abstract way for his horrible 
childhood.  He's what Harry could have become.

> (What's that sad part in GoF where Harry reflects on all the human 
> relationships blasted because Voldemort, both directly and 
> indirectly?)

It's after the Pensieve, when he's aware for the first time of what 
Neville's lost and thinks it's worse than his own tragedy.  I love 
that part too.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------
 "Yeah, Dumbledore's off his rocker, 
 all right," said Ron proudly. 
     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
--------------------------------------




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sat Mar 10 13:34:11 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:34:11 -0000
Subject: The Cup as Portkey Question
Message-ID: <98dagj+adj8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14038

Or, By George I've Got It!

Having recently done a GoF re-read, the last terrifying and emotional 
chapters have been on my mind a lot.  This morning, while briefly 
considering the What Might Have Been if Cedric had been the only one 
to grasp the cup--a thoroughly frightning idea which is a post of its 
own, I returned to the Eternal Question--

Why make the Cup a portkey when Harry's toothbrush would work just as 
well?

Like the Grinch, we have all puzzled on this till our puzzlers were 
sore, but today an answer hit me with the force of a well-placed 
Impedimenta charm.  It was so simple. The answer lie in the portkey 
itself.

Picture it Little Hangleton, June.  Voldy and Wormtail await the bane 
of their existences--young Harry Potter.  Once he arrives, 
disoriented and properly frightened, he is tied to Daddy Riddle's 
tombstone, and forced to provide Voldy with a blood sample.  Voldy 
reincorporates into the Big Bad of yesteryear, at which point he 
calls in his Death Eaters, chastises them for a bit, and then 
disposes of Harry, after an invigorating game of cat and mouse.

(With me so far?  Okay. Because here's where it gets good.)

At this point Voldy and his lowly minions *Touch The Portkey And 
Return To Hogwarts* to begin the new Reign of Terror. *This* is why 
the portkey was rigged to return to Hogwarts.

They arrive outside of the maze, with Harry's lifeless body (after 
all a good gloat is needed) and begin decimating the future wizarding 
population.  They're merely students (and not just Hogwarts students 
either, but Beauxbatons and Durmstrang as well), easy prey.  Also in 
the arena is Karakoff the coward, Snape the spy, Bagman, the MoM 
Fudge, Dumbledore, and, of course, Crouch as Moody.  Crouch didn't 
just "forget" to take his Polyjuice Potion.  It wasn't needed.  He 
could begin hurling hexes as Moody (in all the chaos who could tell 
for which side he was playing?) and after the potion wore off, he 
could fight clearly as himself, alongside his Dark Lord.  

After the battle, Voldemort would be in absolute power and all would 
be right in his world.

It was so brilliant. It was so simple.  It should have worked.

Fortunately for us, Harry had an ace up his sleeve, or rather, a 
pheonix feather in his wand and managed to foil Voldy's plan once 
again.

Respectfully submitted for your approval...

Trina
Now 86% obssessed.







From dwe199 at soton.ac.uk  Sat Mar 10 13:47:34 2001
From: dwe199 at soton.ac.uk (Dai Evans)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:47:34 -0000
Subject: Gryffin - Four Elements - Sports - Slytherin - Lily - Snape
In-Reply-To: <3AA9DC1E.D47F6653@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <98db9m+khk8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14039

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:

> Btw, I am for no canonical reason convinced that Godric Gryffindor's
> name had nothing to do with any golden griffin (maybe a red griffin:
> Dai?), but actually he was a Welshman named Gryffydd Glyndwr and the
> Sais couldn't pronounce his name right so they called him Godric
> Gryffindor and he put up with it. Long time members of the group 
will
> wearily recognize the beginning of my oft-repeated rant about the
> ethnicity of the Founders.

Sorry Rita but I don't see it. In my post #10681 I analysed the 
sorting hat song from GoF which fairly clearly placed Griffindors 
origins outside of Wales. Also, the golden dragon and red dragon have 
both been symbols of Wales going back years (to Roman times), and 
these are often mistaken for Griffons.


Dai




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 14:31:01 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:31:01 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
In-Reply-To: <98ct0e+5eq4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98ddr5+h75i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14040

Naama:"From this point of view writers who use magic in its 
"utility" sense (natural force) are actually writing a fantasy, 
because they're depicting a world that is very essentially different 
from our own - a world where magic is explainable. This is rather 
off the top of my head. Ebony, if you read this, can you give a few 
examples of such books? Harry Potter is also a fantasy for the reasons 
Pippin gave - the magic in HP is "magical" - unexplainable, 
unpredictable, and very clearly antithetic to science."

I disagree. The Harry Potter books are a recognized subgenre of 
science fiction, the "scientific magic" type.  In Harry's world, magic 
*is* discoverable. Albus Dumbledore himself is known for having 
discovered the uses of dragon's blood during his researches with 
Nicolas Flamel.  Remus Lupin takes a potion to control his lycanthropy 
which wasn't available when he was a student.  Sounds like research to 
me.

There are plenty of examples to illustrate the difference. The late 
Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy series was squarely in this genre in an 
alternate history timeframe, when the Plantagenets did not die out but 
instead ruled the Anglo-French Empire and Lord Darcy solved mysteries 
with his wizard assistant, Master Sean.  You couldn't read these books 
without being struck by the connections between them and Harry Potter. 
(There wasn't any copying or idea stealing by JKR; it's just clear the 
two series are the same genre.) Garrett vigorously defended his 
stories as science fiction. 

The Lord of the Rings, OTOH, is fantasy; there is no explanation for 
any of the 'magic' that takes place, and it appears to come solely 
from a supernatural source, all of it mysterious. There is no way that 
a wizard's skill can be increased by study or application, at least 
none we hear about. There's nothing like Hogwarts in Middle-Earth. 
It's a different world altogether.  

"Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic" -- 
Arthur C. Clarke (Grand Master of SF, author of 2001, 2010, etc.)




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar 10 14:47:28 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 08:47:28 -0600
Subject: Fw: [HPforGrownups] Crossposting from the Announcements list
Message-ID: <024b01c0a971$08340780$0314a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14041

There will be an online chat with J K Rowling on Monday, March 12th 
 at 5:35 GMT (12:35 ET).  You can send in questions now - the e-mail 
address is - rnd at bbc.co.uk

This is what I got for my questions:
The original message was received at Sat, 10 Mar 2001 08:28:37 -0600 (CST)
from pmchar1-3.rconnect.com [209.163.20.3]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<rnd at bbc.co.uk>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to mail.bbc.co.uk.:
>>> RCPT To:<rnd at bbc.co.uk>
<<< 550 5.1.1 <rnd at bbc.co.uk>... User unknown
550 <rnd at bbc.co.uk>... User unknown
Doreen






From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET  Sat Mar 10 14:57:40 2001
From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:57:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Cup as Portkey Question
References: <98dagj+adj8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00de01c0a972$a0b29d40$88841440@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14042

Trina, That is absolutely brilliant!! We should all have had an Impedimenta
charm! I need one to get through my class each day and my own kids each
evening :) .
Diana
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trina" <lj2d30 at gateway.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 8:34 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Cup as Portkey Question


> Or, By George I've Got It!
>
> Having recently done a GoF re-read, the last terrifying and emotional
> chapters have been on my mind a lot.  This morning, while briefly
> considering the What Might Have Been if Cedric had been the only one
> to grasp the cup--a thoroughly frightning idea which is a post of its
> own, I returned to the Eternal Question--
>
> Why make the Cup a portkey when Harry's toothbrush would work just as
> well?
>
> Like the Grinch, we have all puzzled on this till our puzzlers were
> sore, but today an answer hit me with the force of a well-placed
> Impedimenta charm.  It was so simple. The answer lie in the portkey
> itself.
>
> Picture it Little Hangleton, June.  Voldy and Wormtail await the bane
> of their existences--young Harry Potter.  Once he arrives,
> disoriented and properly frightened, he is tied to Daddy Riddle's
> tombstone, and forced to provide Voldy with a blood sample.  Voldy
> reincorporates into the Big Bad of yesteryear, at which point he
> calls in his Death Eaters, chastises them for a bit, and then
> disposes of Harry, after an invigorating game of cat and mouse.
>
> (With me so far?  Okay. Because here's where it gets good.)
>
> At this point Voldy and his lowly minions *Touch The Portkey And
> Return To Hogwarts* to begin the new Reign of Terror. *This* is why
> the portkey was rigged to return to Hogwarts.
>
> They arrive outside of the maze, with Harry's lifeless body (after
> all a good gloat is needed) and begin decimating the future wizarding
> population.  They're merely students (and not just Hogwarts students
> either, but Beauxbatons and Durmstrang as well), easy prey.  Also in
> the arena is Karakoff the coward, Snape the spy, Bagman, the MoM
> Fudge, Dumbledore, and, of course, Crouch as Moody.  Crouch didn't
> just "forget" to take his Polyjuice Potion.  It wasn't needed.  He
> could begin hurling hexes as Moody (in all the chaos who could tell
> for which side he was playing?) and after the potion wore off, he
> could fight clearly as himself, alongside his Dark Lord.
>
> After the battle, Voldemort would be in absolute power and all would
> be right in his world.
>
> It was so brilliant. It was so simple.  It should have worked.
>
> Fortunately for us, Harry had an ace up his sleeve, or rather, a
> pheonix feather in his wand and managed to foil Voldy's plan once
> again.
>
> Respectfully submitted for your approval...
>
> Trina
> Now 86% obssessed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 16:03:52 2001
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:03:52 -0000
Subject: Not The Order Of The Phoenix
Message-ID: <98dj9b+j34a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14043

This is how I would write the first chapter of a certain book you may 
have heard of. It doesn't prove anything of course except perhaps 
that Rowling is not out of a job, but some of you may enjoy parts of 
it. 

                NOT THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX 

                             CHAPTER 1

                            THE WARRIOR 

As Hagrid said, what would come, would come
 and he would have to 
meet it when it did. Yes, it was foolish to worry about it now, very 
good advice no doubt about it, Harry just wished he knew how to 
follow it. As he sat on the enormous back seat of the car on his way 
to Privet Drive he noticed that Uncle Vernon had been talking to him, 
probably for some time and doubtless cataloging Harry's many faults, 
but he hadn't been paying attention. After all he'd been through 
paying attention to any of the noises Uncle Vernon made with his 
mouth seemed too insignificant to bother with, there was no point 
wasting valuable brain cells on that, he had far more important 
things to think about. The truth was he no longer cared very much 
what any of the Dursleys said or did. Although his mind seemed 
clearer than it ever had before this brought him no joy, he was weary 
of relieving all the pain and ugliness and death he'd seen in stark 
relief. But he knew he should make an effort to think about something 
else at least for a while, just to see if he was still capable of it. 
For the first time he became fully aware of his surroundings.
"Hey, nice car" Harry said. 
"That school of yours must have made you simple" Uncle Vernon said 
with fury "Haven't you been listening? I just told you it's a brand 
new custom supercharged Bentley with a Rootes type positive 
displacement blower to produce 513 horsepower and no turbo lag. They 
only make ten of these beauties a year and it's just about the most 
expensive car in the world. It cost more than the likes of you will 
make in a lifetime I can tell you that, so sit still and don't kick 
anything. And none of that,.. that funny stuff of yours!" "Pretty 
fancy for a company car, a Bentley" Harry said. "It's my own personal 
car" said Uncle Vernon proudly "and if you must know I've retired 
from the company".
Harry thought for a moment as he looked at the mahogany dashboard 
with teak inlay and the ostrich skin seat covers, then things 
suddenly became clear.
"Congratulations" Harry said "You must have a terrific pension plan 
to retire so young, and with such style. Most wizards don't know much 
about pensions or muggle money, for example if a muggle were to say 
how much it cost to raise a child, a wizard would probably believe 
him, even if the figure was 10 times or 20 times too high."
"Is.. is that so" said Uncle Vernon.
"Yes" said Harry, "of course not all wizards are like that, I have a 
friend in The Department of Muggle Frauds and Swindles who's very 
good at audits"
"Audits?" said Uncle Vernon trying, unsuccessfully, to sound casual 
"They know about those sort of things do they". 
"Oh sure" said Harry cheerfully "whenever they get a report of 
something suspicious they go to work, they love to send people to 
Azkaban, that's the wizard prison. Interesting place that, it's 
guarded by dementors, you know I see weird magical stuff every day 
but those things still give me the creeps, but you may be made of 
sterner stuff. I've heard stories that would make your hair curl, My 
godfather could tell you more, he's the only person to have ever 
escaped from there, if I asked him I'm sure he'd be willing to give 
you some pointers. Who knows, you might find them useful someday."
"What are deme.." But Uncle Vernon stopped, he wasn't sure he was 
really ready to hear the answer to that. He tried again "What are you 
insinuating?" 
Harry smiled pleasantly and said "Just making conversation"
"Right" said Uncle Vernon trying to sound confident "Well there will 
be a lot less conversation and a lot more rules and a lot more work 
this year. I have a list of the chores you will perform every day, 
scrub the kitchen, wash the windows, weed the garden, cut the grass, 
wash the car, mop the "
"No, I won't be doing any of those things" Harry said quietly but 
firmly, he wasn't trying to be defiant, he was simply stating a 
fact "It's important for me to do a lot of studying this summer and I 
can't be distracted with trivialities."
"Trivialities! You'll do what I tell you to do or I'll kick you and 
that stupid owl of yours out of my house!" Vernon bellowed.
"Oh I doubt you'll do that" Harry said calmly.
"And why is that?"
"Because you don't want to get off the gravy train. Give it up 
Vernon, I found out the truth, I know the Ministry Of Magic has been 
paying you to take care of me since I was one year old, grossly 
overpaying in fact. Nice little scam."
"I, I don't know what you're talking about"
"Well" said Harry "If you really don't know what I'm talking about 
then prove it, stop the car and I'll get out right here. Perhaps 
you're tired of getting the ministry's money but I'm sure there are 
others willing to take up the burden. By the way, have you made all 
the payments on the Bentley yet? What's the maintenance and insurance 
costs on this monster?"
Vernon turned purple and looked like he was about to explode, but he 
did not stop the car "They promised me! They said you would never 
find out! I demand to know who told you!"
"Why you told me Vernon, just now, I thank you for confirming my 
suspicions." Said Harry with a smile "And now I'd like to talk about 
some rules of my own."
===== 

Harry sat down and picked up a quill, his diminutive model of the 
horntail was marching along the edge of the desk, occasionally a tiny 
spark came from her mouth. This letter was going to be tricky, he 
didn't want to panic her nor did he want her to think he was trying 
to run her life, but he had to tell her of his concerns because he 
didn't think he could retain his sanity if anything happened to 
Hermione. Best to start with some chitchat.  

Dear Hermione

I hope you're well, I'm fine, in some ways better than fine, for the 
first time in my life I feel like I'm fully awake. Yes I know that 
sounds dumb. Anyway this first week back has been going really great 
for me. On the car trip from the station I pulled a sort of bluff on 
Uncle Vernon and it worked better than I dreamed, they try hard to 
stay out of my way now and I don't think they've spoken a dozen words 
to me since. That's just the way I like it, a good Dursley is one you 
can't see or hear. I'll never beat Ron at chess but I think I could 
hold my own at poker.  

Harry stopped for a minute to considered what he had written. He had 
told the truth, just not the entire truth. No point in telling 
Hermione about the nightmares he thought, she can't do anything about 
them. He didn't know that his feint was only part of the reason the 
Dursley's avoided him, Harry didn't realize that he unnerved them 
with the profoundly powerful stare he had newly developed, a stare 
that almost seemed to give off sparks. Life lived at Harry's 
intensity was alien and freighting to many. He picked up his quill 
and continued.

Would you believe I've already finished my homework? I've decided to 
really concentrate on studying because I have a hunch I'll run into 
Voldemort again someday and I need to be much better prepared. It's 
relaxing too, when you're focused on trying to master a difficult 
spell you sort of forget your troubles. I've found a nice stealth 
spell to prevent the ministry from detecting the unauthorized use of 
magic, I can only make it big enough to cover my bedroom but that's 
big enough for me to practice without interference. I've learned to 
apparate, at least I can do it from one side of the room to the 
other, they say distance only makes it slightly harder, I hope that's 
true. These new fifth year book are a bit disappointing don't you 
think, most of the stuff seems pretty obvious. Dumbledore said I 
should read a few seventh year books this summer and they are a lot 
better but still not quite what I'd hoped for. By the way I know a 
really nifty invigorate charm that's like drinking 10 cups of black 
coffee and it really cuts down on the time wasted sleeping.

The horntail had wandered onto his parchment and was getting in the 
way of his quill, he gently pushed her back to the edge of the desk. 
Yea it was a good charm but Harry wished he could find one that 
eliminated sleep entirely, 3 hours a night is long enough for 
horrible memories to resurface. Ok, stop stalling it's time to get to 
business. He wished he didn't have to write the next part but he knew 
he had to, he thought again of that incredibly gruesome book he'd 
seem in the forbidden section of the school library, the one that 
showed the agonizing deaths of people Voldemort particularly didn't 
like. Harry shuttered. He doubted the Dark Lord hated any of those 
people as much as he hated him, especially now that he'd embarrassed 
Tom Riddle Junior by escaping from right under his nose and looking 
like a fool in front of his Death Eaters. Junior probably has 
something very creative in mind for me Harry thought, and physical 
pain would not be enough for that sadist, he'd want to scar me 
emotionally too. The method was obvious. He picked up the quill again.

I hope you're still not planing to visit Victor Krum in Romania 
because I think that could be very dangerous. Now that Voldemort is 
back I worry that he may try to punish me by hurting my friends. I 
think Krum is a good man but I don't like the idea of you being in a 
foreign country that I know little about except that it's full of 
graduates from Durmstrang taught by Karkaroff. I worry about Ron too 
but at least he's in a house full of friendly witches and wizards, 
I'd be really happy if there was one more witch there, you. You're 
the smartest person I ever met so I know you won't do anything stupid 
whatever you decide, but promise me one thing anyway, be careful, 
because if you were to go and get yourself killed it would ruin my 
entire day.

             Harry
====

Cho looked beautiful in her formal robes as Harry danced with her at 
the Yule Ball.
"You dance wonderfully" she said as she stared at him adoringly.
"Thanks" said Harry grinning from ear to ear "I was a little nervous 
at first yet I think I'm starting to get the hang of it, but you 
dance much better than I do".
"I love to dance" Cho said "that's why I'm so glad you murdered 
Cedric, he couldn't dance at all".
"WHAT!" Harry screamed in horror "NO! I DIDN'T! I DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS 
A PORT KEY!"
Cho started to laugh, a high cold mirthless laugh, and it was 
Voldemort standing before him not Cho and those weren't other dancers 
surrounding him, they were Death Eaters. Harry pulled out his wand 
pointed it at Voldemort and yelled "Avada Kedavra" but it was Cedric 
who received the curse, and died before he hit the floor, a look of 
surprise on his lifeless face. Harry dropped his wand and fell to his 
knees crying "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry". The Death Eaters 
bowed to Harry and chanted "All hail to Harry Potter, all hail the 
new Dark Lord"
NOOOOOOOOO!
Harry sat up in bed drenched in cold sweat his heart beating like a 
jackhammer. "I am not a dark wizard" Harry cried into the empty 
room "Cedric I .." but he could not say more. When he finally got his 
voice back he just muttered "stupid dream" and got up. This was the 
worse one yet he thought as he splashed cold water on his face from 
the basin, he wondered if he'd have them until the day he died, and 
he wondered how soon that day would come. He put on his glasses and 
looked at his watch, it was 2:45 am. Harry glanced at the face in the 
mirror and was appalled, he was starting to look like Sirius did when 
he was in Azkaban. This is foolish Harry thought, I've got to take 
better care of myself, when was the last time I ate? Let's see, I did 
have breakfast, but that must have been yesterday morning, or maybe 
it was the day before. He touched his cheek and felt stubble, I guess 
I'm going have to start shaving too. He still wasn't hungry but he 
had just decided to go down to the kitchen and eat something anyway 
when a owl carrying a package and a letter flew into his room. She 
seemed quite proud of herself for delivering such a heavy bundle by 
herself. "Hedwig!" Harry yelled with delight "It's good to see you 
girl". He thought she might show up tonight so he had some bacon 
ready for her that she quickly devoured. He opened the letter and saw 
it was from Hermione.

  Dear Harry

You have to be careful with those invigorating charms, they're not 
good for you if used too often. I hope you're getting plenty of sleep 
as you could use some rest after all you've been through last year.
Don't worry I won't ruin your entire day because I'm at the Burrow, I 
decided to accept Ron's invitation instead of Victor's. I hope you 
can join us as soon as Dumbledore says it's ok. In the meantime don't 
work too hard and try to have a little fun, you deserve it.

A wave of relief swept over Harry, Hermione was safe, and the idea of 
visiting his two best friends at the Burrow was wonderful as he was 
starting to feel quite lonely. Imagine Hermione telling him not to 
work too hard. Harry smiled. Ginny would be there too Harry realized 
and his grin increased. He read on.

The package is your birthday present, I know it's a bit early but as 
soon as I found out it existed I knew you had to have it immediately. 

Intrigued Harry opened the package and saw that it was a large red 
book, on the cover it said "Advanced Charms And Transfiguration 
Theory With Examples" in smaller print under that it said "with a 
introduction by Albus Dumbledore" then Harry looked at the authors 
and his jaw dropped "Lilly and James Potter". With trembling hands he 
opened the book as if it were more fragile than glass and more 
valuable than gold, he looked at the dedication page, all it said 
was "To Our Son Harry". It took a moment for his eyes to clear enough 
to read the rest of Hermione's letter. 

Professor McGonagall says the book was published less than a month 
before your mom and dad died, she said it's the best book on 
transfiguration she ever read and Professor Flitwick says the same 
thing about charms. Harry your parents must have been very very 
powerful wizards to write a book like that. I tried to read parts of 
it but it's way beyond me, maybe in a few years. Hope to see you soon.

 Love from  Hermione 

Harry was still standing and did not move for several minutes while a 
thousand thoughts ran through his mind each demanding his full 
attention. When he got control of himself again he read Dumbledore's 
introduction.

Lilly and James Potter were two of the best students I ever had so I 
always expected great things from them, but even so I was stunned by 
the sheer brilliance of their first book which is I believe the most 
important treatise on magic published this century. The depth of 
their explanation of magical theory is unrivaled by any other work I 
am aware of. Nor is their originality limited to pure theory, this 
volume contains dozens of powerful spells the likes of which I have 
never seen before. The chapter on Animagi is certain to become a 
classic in the field but it is the astounding chapter on charms 
without wands that opens up an entire new branch of sorcery that has 
never been touched on before. This is not light reading, it can be 
quite demanding even for a talented wizard but those who make the 
effort will be well rewarded. 

      Albus Dumbledore 
      Hogwarts  October 4 1981

Harry sat down at his desk and started to read chapter 1, all 
thoughts of food forgotten.
=====
Harry had thought he understood how transfiguration worked but he 
didn't, not until now. But he wondered why mom and dad said 
transfiguration was one branch of magic that really did always 
require a wand. Sure a wand contains a core of some magical creature 
he thought, but I'm a magical creature myself. Ok, maybe it is 
impossible but I'm going to try anyway. I'll see if I can turn a 
match into a needle, that's the first thing they teach you in 
transfiguration class but I'll try it without a wand. At first 
nothing happened so Harry tried again, this time the match went 
silver. He tried a third time and found he was holding a perfectly 
ordinary needle. Well, Harry thought with a smile, if there's a 
second edition of mom and dad's book it's going to need some 
revisions.
OUCH! A minute gray owl was pecking at his shoulder, he recognized 
Pigwidgeon at once and knew the letter he carried had to have come 
from Ron. 

Harry- Hermione is fine and here at the Burrow. Every day mom asks 
Dumbledore if you can come too but he keeps saying not yet, but I 
think he'll say yes before the summer is over.
You're not going to believe this but Fred and George brought me to 
the best tailor in Diagon Alley and bought me the most expensive 
dress robe in the shop. I'm not kidding! I have no idea where they 
got the money I thought they were broke, all they'll say is that 
they're tired of having a kid brother who looks so shabby at fancy 
parties. I do know one thing, that stupid git Malfoy won't be 
laughing at my robes this year.
It's all over the wizard world but you're sort of cut off from news 
so you may not have heard that the day after we left school Fudge 
issued something called an emergency executive decree and fired 
Dumbledore as headmaster and put Lucius Malfoy in his place, but 
don't worry, it's only on parchment. Dumbledore is still at Hogwarts 
because the teachers are more important than Fudge and they say he's 
still headmaster, every one of the them still supports him. An hour 
after Fudge gave that stupid order dad resigned from the ministry and 
he was just the first, by now about half the ministry employees have 
quit in disgust. So far they haven't tried to use force to remove 
Dumbledore but if they do dad reckons that means civil war. He really 
hopes it doesn't come to that because we should be united now that 
you know who is back, but there is just no way Lucius Malfoy will 
ever be headmaster of Hogwarts. Mom is mad at Percy because he didn't 
quit, he says he's for Dumbledore too and just wants to work for 
change from within the system but I think he's waiting to see which 
way the wind is blowing so he can jump on the winning side. 
Don't let the Dursleys get you down.  RON

Harry went to his trunk and dug out The Marauder's Map, yes Ron was 
right, there was a little dot in his office that said Albus 
Dumbledore, a very reassuring little dot. It was easy to scan the 
rest of the map because there were no students at school this time of 
the year and he was pleased that Lucius Malfoy was not on the 
Hogwarts grounds. The dot appeared to be pacing, Dumbledore often did 
that when he was deep in thought. Harry wished the map could tell him 
what that wise wizard was thinking.     
======
Harry was in deep concentration when he turned the page of his 
parent's book, the rest of the world did not exist for him at that 
moment. Oh good another one of those spells without wands, I want to 
learn as many of those as I can, I hate feeling helpless, I hated it 
when I was tied to that tombstone and could do nothing because I 
couldn't reach my wand, I never want to feel like that again, conjure 
fire into your bare hands, pretty cool, the only wizard I've ever 
seen do something like that is Professor Lupin on the first day I 
ever met him, I'll bet he learned how from mom and dad, come to think 
of it that invisibility without a cloak spell I learned last night is 
like the one Dumbledore told me he knew how to do when I was in the 
first year, I'll bet he learned how from mom and dad's book too, I'll 
give my cloak to Ron and Hermione I don't need it anymore, time to 
see what makes this fire spell tick, ok I understand that part, 
right, right, that makes sense, wait a minute why do they say.. ok 
now I see, and then you invert that then repeate this middle part 
again put that there then just cancel that out and it all should 
work, well lets give it a try.
Harry held up his index finger and a flame leapt from the tip.
Neat, the flame looks just as the book says it should, but actually 
the fire is really no better than what you'd get from a cigarette 
lighter, I wonder if I can do a little better, let me look at that 
spell again, hmm this part seems too convoluted to me, I'll bet the 
same thing could be accomplished more directly, yes that would be 
better, now there's room to do it twice and double the heat, no I can 
fit three of them in there, and there seems to be something working 
at cross purposes, I mean when you really think about it 95% of the 
heat you gain here you lose over there, that won't do, but if I just 
repeated that part again then turn it inside out the negative would 
change into a positive and everything would be pulling in the same 
direction and the problem would go away, and no point in doing this 
step here, it should be done at the very end because then you can 
eliminate all that useless overhead. Harry tried again, a foot long 
white hot torch roared from his fingertip powerful enough to cut 
through the armor on a battleship. That's better Harry thought, then 
he turned the page only to discover with disappointment that he'd 
finished the book. Harry got up, stretched, and walked to the window, 
there was a violent thunder storm underway, there were deep puddles 
in the street so it must have been going on for a long time but he 
didn't remember when it started. He'd once played a Quidditch match 
in weather like this, it was the only time he ever lost, it seemed 
like a very long time ago. He wondered if he'd ever play Quidditch 
again, he vowed never return to Hogwarts if a Death Eater is 
headmaster.
Well, Harry thought, I've successfully performed every spell in mom 
and dad's book, except the one on Animagi, I might be able to do that 
too but I don't dare try, I'd need more space, a lot more space, I 
could try it when I go to Ron's house, the orchard might be big 
enough and it's well hidden from muggles, I hope Charlie will be 
there. 
Harry became aware of a pain in his stomach and at first thought he 
was sick but then realized he was hungry, ravenously hungry. As he 
headed for the kitchen he passed the Dursleys in the living room, the 
TV was turned up loud and they were watching a special report on the 
severe weather. They looked at him and then as usual became 
uncomfortable and quickly turned away pretending they hadn't seen 
him. It was almost noon but was so dark he had to turn on the lights 
in the kitchen to see what he was doing. He'd about eaten his fill of 
cold leftover spaghetti while standing over the sink when a huge clap 
of thunder shook the house. Apparently it didn't impress Dudley 
because Harry could hear him whine "Weather is boring, I want to 
watch the mega-mutilation festival, change the chan.." and then the 
TV went silent and so did Dudley. Any second now he expected to hear 
Dudley moaning that he was missing his favorite show, but he heard 
nothing from his cousin, in fact he heard nothing at all.
Puzzled he walked into the living room and was astounded to discover 
nobody there, the TV was still on but there was no sound or picture, 
a large dish of ice cream was on the table next to where Dudley was 
siting and steam was coming off the tea Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia 
were drinking. Harry changed the channel on the TV while he mulled 
over the situation but couldn't find a signal anywhere. Harry 
couldn't imagine where the hell they went to so fast, they couldn't 
be upstairs, they would have had to walk right next to him in the 
kitchen, they must have made a sprint for the front door and dashed 
outside, it's a little odd that he didn't hear the door open but 
that's the only thing that makes sense, if you can call running 
outside in the middle of a thunderstorm sensible. He opened the front 
door and looked at the sky, he saw a featureless blue dome with not a 
cloud in the sky. How could a storm stop that suddenly? He thought of 
the eye of a hurricane but Briton doesn't get tropical storms, and 
that wouldn't explain why the ground was dry. The sun was bright, 
harsh, pitiless, and everything had the wrong hue, the colors were 
vivid but unhealthy like those you see under a brilliant mercury 
vapor street lamp. And then he heard something he had never heard 
before, absolute silence. There was not a breath of wind no rustle of 
leaves no sound of birds or insects or dogs or cars or people. 
Nothing. Harry drummed his fingers on the door just to be sure he 
hadn't gone deaf. Nobody is outside Harry thought and the unpleasant 
glare of that strange sunlight was hurting his eyes so he closed the 
door, but Harry was wrong somebody was outside. Just a few seconds 
later as he walked toward the living room he heard a powerful 
pounding on the door from the other side. His heart started to race, 
don't be stupid he told himself, Voldemort wouldn't knock, would he? 
Harry opened the door.






From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Mar 10 16:35:20 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:35:20 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: OT messages to move to the OTChatter List (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AAA57C8.C94D28D4@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14044

Hi everyone --

Starting with March 12th, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup. This is in order to make it easier to
sort through messages and reduce overall message volume on this list.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

You will need to join this list, but as with any yahoogroup, you may set
your subscription options to (a) individual emails, (b) digests or (c)
webview only.  There are about 60 or so members over there already, and
the message volume promises to be high.  So, if you might not care much
about OT posts or care only now & again, the webview option might be a
good choice.

On this OT-Chatter list, you may discuss anything unrelated to Harry
Potter (subject to the rule against inflammatory topics - see below),
and you should, in addition, discuss the following HP-related things on
this list rather than the main HPforGrownups list (this is *not* an
exhaustive list):

*** Fanfic recommendations (recommending/discussing a fanfic by someone
else - unless
it can be tied to canon)

*** Listings of HP merchandise collections

*** Answering a roll call (e.g. for the H/H Cruiseliner or the Good Ship
R/H)

*** Detailing your results on a HP Quiz or Sorting Hat test

*** Short, fun posts, such as 'Tom Swifties'

*** Shipper Debates not supported by examples from canon

*** Opinions on HP artwork, book covers and other paraphernalia

*** Definitions or explanations of British words, phrases and traditions
related to HP

***  Exchanges of cultural information between the Americans and the
Brits

*** Anything that you would preface with "This is slightly OT but ..."

We wish this area of the club to remain friendly and welcoming, so the
Moderators will step in if any thread appears to be veering in a
contentious direction.   Examples of prohibited subjects include
politics and The Holocaust.

This message will be resent every day for the next 2 weeks.  If you've
read it once, there will be no need to re-read it.  We just want to be
sure that everyone gets the message.  Don't be surprised if you get an
e-howler (or at least a friendly reminder) from one of the Moderators if
you violate the OT policy.

Thanks for listening (more ADMIN messages to come -- please continue to
read them as they are important).

Penny
The Moderator Team










From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Mar 10 16:36:29 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:36:29 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Announcements List is up & running (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AAA580D.A83DD283@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14045

Hi everyone --

Your Moderator Team has been hard at work, looking for ways to reduce
message volume and keep the main group friendly & organized.

We've set up another sister Yahoogroup -- the HP4GU - Announcements
list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

This list is intended for those who want to receive announcements about
HP news, book release dates, fanfic plugs by the author, notification of
new merchandise, as well as periodic summaries of what the main group
has been discussing (including those members who cannot cope with the
high posting rate on the main list).

Please note that we are requiring the types of announcements that you
see listed below be made *only* to the Announcements List.  This will
reduce message volume on the main group.  The only messages that will be
duplicated will be the ADMIN messages posted to the main group and
copied to the Announcements list.

To manage the volume on this list, it is a moderated group.  This means
that one of the Moderators on the Moderator Team must approve your
message before it gets sent out to the list.

The following announcements are permitted (not an exhaustive list -
please check with the Moderators if you are unsure about your message):

*** The HPforGrownUps Newsletter (edited by Jeralyn and Ebony)

*** ADMIN messages from the Moderator Team (copies of those posted to
the main group)

*** Announcements of chat room sessions

*** Announcements of new discussion summaries posted to the main list

*** Plugs of fanfiction (one plug per chapter by the author)

*** Plugs of HP-related events (including regional Members' meetings)

*** Plugs of new HP websites or of new HP information on other websites

*** News releases, with links (this should include things related to the
Warner Brothers' movie)

*** Fun HP links, such as Sorting Hat quizzes

*** Alerts to new HP merchandise

*** JKR sightings; JKR events (book signings, tours, TV appearances,
chats, etc.)

*** Information on HP fan clubs

Again, we encourage everyone to join this group as well.  The message
volume should remain relatively low & focused (because the Moderators
must approve each message, you can be assured that the subject heading
will be relevant!).

Please remember that beginning March 12th, fanfic plugs, merchandise
sightings, news links and the like need to be posted *only* to the
Announcements list.  This message will be repeated several times over
the next few weeks to be sure everyone is aware of the changes.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team













From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Mar 10 16:37:24 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:37:24 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Spoilers for the JKR Schoolbooks (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AAA5844.394675E7@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14046

Hi everyone --

The Moderator Team has decided to require spoiler warnings & spoiler
space for discussion of the schoolbooks to be released next Monday
(March 12th).  These 2 books are: Quidditch Through the Ages and
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.

For those of you unfamiliar with spoiler warnings, etc. -- here's a
brief review.  Put something like the following as your subject heading:
Quidditch book (SPOILER WARNING).  Include a minimum of 15 lines of
spoiler space before typing your message.  If you are replying, be sure
to include spoiler space and put your reply *under* the part that you
are replying to (ensuring plenty of spoiler space).  Here's how it
should look:

After your greeting, type the following

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

This will allow anyone who inadvertently opens your message to avoid
seeing any text.

Again, this ADMIN message will be sent out daily through the end of next
week.  We are currently thinking that spoilers should stay in place
about 2 weeks from the release date of March 12th.  You will be notified
when spoilers are no longer required.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team










From margdean at erols.com  Sat Mar 10 17:06:28 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:06:28 -0500
Subject: PP's and Nicknames
References: <98d7dv+imc8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AAA5F14.78773DB5@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14047

Amy Z wrote:

> (PPs don't do too well in these books, do
> they?  Peter Pettigrew, Piers Polkiss--if Muggles could be
> Slytherins, he'd be one--Pansy Parkinson.  Poppy Pomfrey is the
> exception.  But I think of Poppy as a nickname for Mary or Margaret,
> not sure why.)

"Polly" is a nickname for "Mary" . . . is that what you're
thinking of?


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 17:15:49 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:15:49 -0000
Subject: Questions for Jo
Message-ID: <98dng5+86g5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14048

Should this be on OT-chatter?

Shall we organise ourselves this time? Last time we made that long 
list and everyone sent it in but no more than (if) one question was 
answered. Do you think we'll have any better luck this time?

I sent in about eight questions off the top of my head and may send 
it more. She most likely wont respond but I can dream...In fact I 
actually asked a shipper question. I'm sure it wont be answered but I 
felt that it was at least it was worth asking, and I felt that I 
worded it in a way where she COULD respond without giving anything 
away. Here it is-(paraphrased)

If you were a reader, and assuming the trio are alive at the end of 
book seven, which romance to you think is most likely post-canon, 
Harry and Hermione, or Ron and Hermione?

Also someone, I might, should ask if she's ever read PoU, ASA, TIP, 
DD and other wonderful fanfics...

Scott

 

 




From margdean at erols.com  Sat Mar 10 17:36:24 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:36:24 -0500
Subject: Snape's Job
References: <3AA9DC1E.D47F6653@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3AAA6618.34BD80DB@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14049

Catlady wrote:

> Margaret Dean  wrote of Snape possibly dying to save Harry and defeat
> Voldemort:
> > The more so because Snape would thus be canceling out his own
> > burdensome (as he sees it) debt to Harry's father . . . and he's also
> > a character who wouldn't necessarily =mind= the fact that he was
> > laying a certain, similar amount of guilt on Harry.
>
> I think, unless Snape had a LOT of time to think about what he was
> doing, he would not be thinking of that silly debt to Harry's father,
> but rather of his duty to serve the Light, fight the Dark, and make
> Dumbledore proud of him, and he would not be thinking of making Harry
> feel guilty, but rather that death would release him from his own burden
> of guilt. And horrible memories. And hated job.

On consideration I agree with most of this, but I don't
necessarily agree that Snape hates his job.  Sure, everybody
keeps saying that Snape wants the Defense Against the Dark Arts
professorship, but I have yet to see Snape himself saying
anything of the kind.

On the contrary, I see Snape having quite a lot of perfectly
justifiable pride in his Potions work.  He's one of the few
wizards who can make a successful Wolfsbane Potion, for instance,
and he'll do it for Remus Lupin even though he can't stand him. 
(Yes, I'm sure it's also partly because Dumbledore asked him to,
but you won't convince me that professional pride and
professional ethics aren't involved as well.)

He may not be as fond of the teaching aspect, of course, though
there again, he's certainly a =competent= teacher in many ways
(e.g. being able to hold a class silent without effort).  His
main fault here is rampant favoritism.  I suspect he's also
frustrated by the fact that so few of his students share his
enthusiasm for potion-making.  He likes the work itself, but he
don't get no respect.  :)

What Snape really needs is a nice research position in a
top-secret lab someplace . . .


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From margdean at erols.com  Sat Mar 10 17:37:57 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:37:57 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
References: <98c18r+goqe@eGroups.com> <3AA997A2.C414008D@erols.com> <3AA9AD33.C12C17A@texas.net> <007601c0a933$70fe15a0$2014a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3AAA6675.C74BA686@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14050

Doreen wrote:
> 
> Margaret Dean wrote:
> 
> > > Severus Snape.  We know he is NOT bad, yet we all love to hate him
> > > for and with Harry.  Wouldn't it just blow us away if Snapey was the one
> > > to help vanquish Voldemort after all - and lose his own life in the
> > > process?
> 
> My apologies to Margaret Dean, who stated what I felt, so much more
> eloquently. I did not read your letter until after I answered that question,
> myself.

I cannot take credit for another person's work.  Jenny wrote
that.  (Though I agree with it!)


--Margaret Dean 
  <margdean at erols.com>



From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sat Mar 10 17:36:40 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:36:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions for Jo
In-Reply-To: <98dng5+86g5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103101231350.14652-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14051

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Scott wrote:

> Also someone, I might, should ask if she's ever read PoU, ASA, TIP, 
> DD and other wonderful fanfics...

We have actual legal experts on here who're undoubtedly more qualified
than I to answer this, but my understanding from other fandoms is that
the people involved in the show (book, movie, etc.) *can't* read fanfic
(and definitely can't admit to it if they have), due to the horrid mess
that would result if they subsequently used an idea that had appeared in
fanfic?  And drawing TPTB's attention to fanfic is probably never a good
idea -- we don't really want to see a court test of its legality...  
I'm not saying that JKR would sue (I doubt she would), but WB and
Scholastic inter alios might decide to take the cease and desist letter
route...

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 18:55:14 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:55:14 -0000
Subject: PP's and Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <3AAA5F14.78773DB5@erols.com>
Message-ID: <98dtai+slj3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14052

Margaret wrote:
> 
> "Polly" is a nickname for "Mary" . . . is that what you're
> thinking of?
> 
Yeah, that and the fact that in the case of the only person I've ever 
met named Poppy, it was a nickname.  Not a very sound basis for a 
decision, I admit.  Most likely Madam Pomfrey's name is simply Poppy.

Just the same, if we meet any more PPs in the books, I'm going to 
regard them with suspicion 'til I'm sure they're not spies for V.

;-)
Amy Z.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 19:01:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:01:30 -0000
Subject: FF (was Questions for Jo)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103101231350.14652-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <98dtma+mgn2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14053

Jen wrote:

>And drawing TPTB's attention to fanfic is probably never a good
> idea -- we don't really want to see a court test of its 
legality...  
> I'm not saying that JKR would sue (I doubt she would), but WB and
> Scholastic inter alios might decide to take the cease and desist 
letter
> route...

Perish the thought.  Some of us are only surviving week to week 
because of fanfic...

...and some of us are going to die before the next chapter of DS 
anyway, thanks to the lovely image Cassie left us with at the end of 
ch. 13.

(If you don't know what I'm talking about, go read DD and DS from the 
start right away!)

Hoping that gets me a date with Remus without my having to re-enter 
the bidding war,
Amy Z




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 10 18:39:32 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (Rosemary)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:39:32 -0800
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi? 
Message-ID: <3AAA74C1.B915C1D2@qnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14054

I said:
>The marvelous cannot by definition be a part of everyday 
life, and 
> therefore stories of the marvelous must take place in a marvelous 
> milieu. If this milieu is supposed to have been produced by the 
> application of scientific understanding, then we have a science 
fiction story. 

and Naama asked:
>>Can the marvelous be "supposed to have been produced by the 
application of scientific undestanding"? It seems to me that by 
postulating the existence of a scientfic explanation you take the 
marvel out of the marvelous, don't you? I mean, we say of 
technological innovations "wow, its like a miracle!", but we do use 
"like" and not "is", because we are sure there is a scientific 
explanation even if we don't know what it is at the moment. <<

	It's the Wow! reaction, that sense of awe, which the marvelous tale
aims to produce. That's a gut reaction and it's impervious to criticism
because it can't be analyzed. You either feel it or you don't. It's also
problematic from the political point of view because awe can be used to
control people.  So   whether a particular marvel is labelled 
"illusion" or "miracle" or "magic" becomes  a political decision rather
than a critical one. Our culture makes the judgement for us and we as 
individuals either accept it, or separate ourselves.  
	So, the star destroyer zooms over head at the beginning of  Star Wars,
and I say, "Wow" and then I say "special effects" and I presume that it
was created by the wizards at Industrial Light and Magic, because that's
what I've been told. I put it in the 'illusion' category and I give it
what Tolkien calls "secondary belief". I believe it's a starship, but
only in the context of the movie. 
	But if I didn't know any better, I might have screamed and tried to run
away, as film audiences are said to have done at the beginning of the
twentieth century when the screen first showed a head-on shot of a
locomotive bearing down on them. The audience in that case gave the
image what Tolkien called "primary belief", and they didn't stop to try
and figure out whether the locomotive was magical or miraculous, they
were too busy trying to get away. 
	
and Naama asked also:
>>But 
perhaps your "marvelous" is not the same as the "miraculous"?<<

	 "Miraculous" implies to me the operation of a divine agency. I used
"marvelous" because I was trying to discuss "wow" producing phenomena
without making implications about the cause. 

Jim said:
>>The Harry Potter books are a recognized subgenre of 
science fiction, the "scientific magic" type.  In Harry's world, magic 
*is* discoverable. Albus Dumbledore himself is known for having 
discovered the uses of dragon's blood during his researches with 
Nicolas Flamel.  Remus Lupin takes a potion to control his lycanthropy 
which wasn't available when he was a student.  Sounds like research to 
me.<<
	Good point. The wizards are using scientific understanding...or are
they? How do we know it's not magical understanding? Could a Muggle or a
Squib discover the twelve uses of dragon's blood, or produce an anti
werewolf potion? I think not. One could write  about the attempt of a
non-magical person to deal with the magical world by means of scientific
understanding, and that would indeed be science fiction. Your "The
Letter" story might be an example. The Lord Darcy books might be
another.  But that's not what Rowling's books are about. "This," says
Dumbledore, "is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable." (Prisoner
of Azkaban, ch. 22) Try substituting the word 'science' for the word
'magic' in that sentence. Doesn't make sense, does it?

"Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic" -- 
Arthur C. Clarke (Grand Master of SF, author of 2001, 2010, etc.)
	Well, to quote another acknowledged master, "A great many of the truths
we cling to depend upon our point of view." <g>
Pippin



From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Mar 10 19:25:16 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:25:16 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: FAQs Update
Message-ID: <3AAA7F9C.2713C99C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14055

Hi --

We thought that we should fill everyone in on the topics covered in the
FAQs, since we noted yesterday that every topic that is covered in a FAQ
is considered On-Topic by the Moderators.  So, here they are (I've put
an asterisk) by the FAQs that are complete or virtually complete (just
need editing & fine-tuning).

THE WORLD OF HARRY POTTER
    British Education System
    Character Accents
    Character Names (Meaning, Origin, Pronounciation, etc.)
    Chronology & Timeline(s)
    Geography*
    Hogwarts
    Mysteries & Inconsistencies*
    Potential Romance Pairings*
    Predictions*
    Quidditch

CHARACTERS in HP
    Animal Characters*
    Sirius Black
    Albus Dumbledore
    Dursley Family*
    Hermione Granger*
    Rubeus Hagrid
    Neville Longbottom
    Remus Lupin
    Minerva McGonagall*
    Draco Malfoy (and Malfoy Family)
    Peter Pettigrew
    Harry Potter
    James & Lily Potter*
    Severus Snape
    Weasley Family*
    Ron Weasley*
    Lord Voldemort

    Similarities between Voldemort & the Potters

APPEAL & CRITICISM OF THE HP SERIES
    Universal Appeal of HP*
    Book Banning & Controversies
    Lawsuits*
    Racial Diversity & HP
    Religion & HP*

FANDOM
    Audio Versions
    CoverArt & Covers from Around the World
    Fan Clubs
    Fanfiction*
    Harry Potter Humor
    Movie*
    Merchandise
    Other Recommended Reading*

WIZARDING WORLD
    Clothing
    Economy
    Government*
    Magical Devices*
    Mythology & Magical Creatures
    Social Issues
    Spells & Charms*
    Wands*

J.K. ROWLING*

My estimate of completion wasn't too far off -- 22 of 50 are pretty
close to being ready to upload.  I suspect we are even further along
than that since I think some of the FAQ'ers just haven't uploaded drafts
that are fairly complete.  Additionally, some of the FAQs remaining will
be quite short & easy to write (Audio Versions, Fan Clubs, Character
Accents, etc.).

Hopefully, this message will also spur those FAQ'ers who are lagging a
bit behind to redouble their efforts.  <vbg>

Happy weekend to all --

Penny
The Moderator Team




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 19:47:57 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:47:57 -0000
Subject: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
In-Reply-To: <98cdq6+1he6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98e0dd+9m27@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14056

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Really interesting question, Kimberly!  
> > 
> > I also get a little queasy at the thought of Harry killing 
> > Voldemort--but I'm also intrigued at the possibility of seeing 
> Harry 
> > deal with being a killer.  I think his refusal to kill Pettigrew 
> (and 
> > Sirius, for that matter) shows that he wouldn't kill anyone 
except 
> > with extreme reluctance and if given no alternative that he could 
> see. 
> >  He would suffer a lot if he killed even Voldemort, I think, and 
in 
> my 
> > perverse way, I'd like to see that suffering.
> > 
> > I get queasy in a different way at the thought of JKR killing 
> > Voldemort in a way that releases everyone from guilt.  
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > All of which is to say that if it is unpleasant to think of 
> Voldemort 
> > getting his just desserts, which I think it is, then I want JKR 
to 
> > make us deal with it, and not sugar-coat it by having him die in 
> some 
> > more palatable way.  I would be disappointed by a scenario in 
which 
> > he's standing on the Astronomy tower when it crumbles to dust 
from 
> > his own curses, carrying his screaming form with it, yada yada-- 
a 
> way 
> > to give us all the thrill of seeing him die without anyone we 
care 
> > about having to soil his/her hands.  To me this poses real moral 
> > implications for the readership: as if we really have executed 
> someone 
> > without acknowledging the weight of that responsibility.
> > 
> 
> Drat Amy!
> 
> What are you thinking, being so sensible?  No fair!
> 
> Of course, you're right.  I suppose I wouldn't want to see a 
scenario 
> where Voldemort inadvertently splats himself - saving the day and 
> releasing everyone from responsibility, or has an emotional 
> breakthrough and forms a wizard chapter of Evil Overlords 
Anonymous, 
> complete with amends letters to nearly every family in England.
> 
> I guess part of my problem is my own inner conflict with the idea 
of 
> capital punishment, which, in the case of your average heinous 
> murderer who might somehow be redeemable, sort of removes any 
> possibility for repentance/redemption.  I am not a vocal opponent 
of 
> capital punishment, as I admittedly don't fully grasp all of the 
> issues involved, but I find the idea terribly upsetting, from a lot 
> of angles, as even with someone like Voldemort, I don't want to be 
> responsible for deciding if that person's life still has value - if 
> they are redeemable or not.
> 
> Then, when you take that a step further, and instead of capital 
> punishment, the responsiblity for which at least can be passed off 
on 
> the governmental body in charge, you have an individual...
> I have to admit, in all honesty, that given the choice, I'd far 
> rather die to protect others than kill to do so, and I have serious 
> doubts as to whether, if the situation ever presented itself, I'd 
be 
> capable of killing even someone like Voldemort.  
> 
> So, all that said, when I think of Harry, who is still a child, and 
> has already been subjected to entirely too much, who lives daily 
with 
> the fact that his mother would be alive if she hadn't chosen to die 
> in order to protect him, who has seen Cedric die too, simply for 
> standing too close to him...  I just imagine that he must already 
> feel like he's responsible for a few deaths.  For him to have to 
> *choose* to kill someone, even the one who really *is* responsible 
> for all those deaths... it's just too much to ask of one kid.
> 
> I just keep coming back to the following:
> 
> -Harry saved Peter, saying he doesn't reckon his father would want 
> Remus and Sirius to become killers because of the little rat.
> 
> -Sirius (maybe?) and Dumbledore indicated that it was wrong for the 
> MoM to allow the auror's to use the unforgiveable curses on dark 
> wizards, and that evil for the greater good is still evil (or at 
> least that's my interpretation).
> 
> In light of the above, I'm hoping that there's some secret option 
D, 
> where nobody has to kill him, and they can somehow squibify him or 
> something, so that he is no longer a threat.  
> 

I have several comments on this really interesting subject (thanks, 
Kimberly!).

I think there is an option D that ties in very nicely, IMO, with a 
lot of what happened so far and with fantasy literature logic in 
general. It is that Voldemort will die by his own hand. Not in the 
sense of suicide, I hasten to add, but that his evil actions will 
rebound back on him, like the first time he was vanquished by his own 
AK curse. It's poetic justice (.. as well as plain old justice) and 
it also seems necessary to me, because it has been said that 
Voldemort, not being truly human (or alive?), cannot be killed. So it 
makes sense that only his own unique powers can kill him. 

As to Amy's reluctance to have Voldemort death sugar coated, I 
generally agree with this sentiment. Killing any human being should 
be presented as a real moral dilemma. It's just that I really don't 
see how JKR can make any moral dilemma concerning Voldemort's death 
seem credible, or interesting. He is evil personified. Its true that 
he used to be human and that we can find it in our hearts to be sorry 
for the child Tom Marvolo Riddle, but what he is now is really a 
monster. He is a fantasy figure, so, in contra distinction to real 
life serial killers, he can be made to be inhuman and completely 
evil. I think that if and when he dies, the reader will feel nothing 
but enormous relief.


Rita said:
"I think, unless Snape had a LOT of time to think about what he was
doing, he would not be thinking of that silly debt to Harry's father,
but rather of his duty to serve the Light, fight the Dark, and make
Dumbledore proud of him, and he would not be thinking of making Harry
feel guilty, but rather that death would release him from his own 
burden of guilt. And horrible memories. And hated job."

And I had to quote this, because I so so so agree! I agree so much it 
hurts (oh, but it hurts good!). Thank you, lady of Cat.



Naama





From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 20:19:48 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:19:48 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
In-Reply-To: <3AAA74C1.B915C1D2@qnet.com>
Message-ID: <98e294+q8j6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14057

Pippin:"Good point. The wizards are using scientific 
understanding...or are they? How do we know it's not magical 
understanding? Could a Muggle or a Squib discover the twelve uses of 
dragon's blood, or produce an anti werewolf potion? I think not. One 
could write  about the attempt of a non-magical person to deal with 
the magical world by means of scientific understanding, and that 
would indeed be science fiction."

I would argue that your definitions of "science", "science fiction," 
and "scientific understanding" are narrow ones. The marvel of the 
world is not diminished at all by an attempt to understand it, any 
more than the wonder of Mozart is reduced by an understanding of how 
the instruments work.

We have seen that magic in Harry's world is discoverable, and that 
knowledge of it can and is extended.  This is just like any other 
form of scientific inquiry; all that's changed is the starting point. 
So whether we're talking about "scientific" or "magical" 
understanding, the tools are the same. Our 'eclectricity' and plugs 
(all our science and technology) are substitutes for magic that we 
Muggles are forced to use. Magic replaces technology. That wouldn't 
happen in Tolkien's world.




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Mar 10 20:41:35 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:41:35 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions for Jo
In-Reply-To: <98dng5+86g5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010310121341.03e6e770@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14058

Here is a list of questions I'd liked answered that I think
she could without any "spoilers" (If she gives a simple "yes",
"no", or "maybe" to most of them):

-- Is the Ministry of Magic a democracy, a dictatorship,
      or a secret department in the Muggle Cabinet?

-- Was the "Voldemort is the last remaining ancestor of
      Salazaar Slytherin" line a typo or did Dumbledore really
      *mean* to say "ancestor"??

-- Will the remaining three books be mostly devoid of Quidditch?
       (i.e. Will Harry be too busy fighting Voldemort to attend
        Practice?)

-- Will we ever meet some nice Slytherins, or are they
       all inherently bad?

-- Will we ever meet some nice snakes?  (e.g. will Harry
       ever cross paths with his Brazilian boa again?)

-- Will Professor Sinistra ever have a speaking part?  (What
      do Wizards need astronomy for, anyway?)

-- Will Harry try any new elective classes, or is he stuck with
        Divination for another three years?

-- Will we ever find out why Peeves fears the Bloody Baron?

-- Will Professor Trelawney make a third correct prediciton and
      thereby earn her pension?



                                                 -- Dave




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sat Mar 10 21:17:01 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:17:01 -0000
Subject: Questions for Jo
In-Reply-To: <98dtma+mgn2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98e5kd+kej3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14059

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Jen wrote:
> 
> >And drawing TPTB's attention to fanfic is probably never a good
> > idea -- we don't really want to see a court test of its 
> legality...  
> > I'm not saying that JKR would sue (I doubt she would), but WB and
> > Scholastic inter alios might decide to take the cease and desist 
> letter
> > route...
> 
I agree with Jen here - it's probably a bit more prudent to not ask 
about Fanfiction, especially by title (we don't want her to be 
prevented from giving a chapter a certain title in, say, Book 6, when 
Draco Malfoy deliberates turning to the good side (which is as  likely 
a plot twist as any, and would in no way be related to Cassie's story) 
just because she's seen the DRACO SINISTER title...)


> ...and some of us are going to die before the next chapter of DS 
> anyway, thanks to the lovely image Cassie left us with at the end of 
> ch. 13.
Oh yeah. That. Poor remus, locked in a room witha  pack 
ofwerewolves.... ;)




From slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 21:35:37 2001
From: slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com (slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:35:37 -0000
Subject: Questions for Jo
In-Reply-To: <98e5kd+kej3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98e6n9+nul6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14060

 
 I agree that it's best not to ask about fanfiction. My burning 
question for her is - did Sirius play Quiddich? If so, what 
position? - I can't be the only person who wants to know this, can I?

MC




From TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET  Sat Mar 10 21:41:07 2001
From: TEAPOT1 at PRODIGY.NET (Diana Wisniewski)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:41:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Not The Order Of The Phoenix
References: <98dj9b+j34a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c0a9aa$d276a820$63841440@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14061

Please tell me you are going to put more of this story on the fan-fic site.
I got very involved in it and was so depressed when it ended. I am anxiously
awaiting March 12th and hoping Amazon.com will be sending me my 'text books'
on that date. But they will be too short to hold me very long, as I read
book 4 in a 3 day week end( my husband and kids suffered through that
one:) ).
So please,please write more and let us know where to find it on the fan-fic
site.
Diana
----- Original Message -----
From: <eggplant107 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 11:03 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Not The Order Of The Phoenix


This is how I would write the first chapter of a certain book you may
have heard of. It doesn't prove anything of course except perhaps
that Rowling is not out of a job, but some of you may enjoy parts of
it.

                NOT THE ORDER OF THE PHOENIX

                             CHAPTER 1

                            THE WARRIOR

As Hagrid said, what would come, would come. and he would have to ....





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar 10 22:51:38 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:51:38 -0800
Subject: Question for JKR - SF/Fantasy - Initials PP - Wales - Eggplant's Fic -  Sanape's Possible Heroic Death
Message-ID: <3AAAAFFA.20E69A2B@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14062

Catlady grovels to Neil, Penny, Heidi, John, and all Moderator Team.
Catlady REALLY should not have said spiteful things on-list. (Catlady
hopes that, rather than having to kiss all feet, she can imitate Skadi
Njord's-wife and choose the cleanest pair of feet.)

Having insulted everyone, I now ask a favor: if someone is sending
questions to the on-line chat, can they ask: What is a warlock? Is
warlock just another word for wizard? (Then I will be heartbroken when
she says Yes and ruins my theory about 'warlock' being a Member of
not-Parliament. That's why I hope no one asks when is Draco's birthday,
ruining my theory of June 24.)

IIRC JKR already answered a question about why the original printing
said "last ancestor" -- IIRC she gave a non-committal answer beginning
"Good catch!" but then hinting that it was an error. I  have a much
vaguer, much less reliable feeling, recollection that someone already
asked her whether LILY played Quidditch, and she said No..

All the debate about whether most of what common Muggles considered
fantasy is really science fiction is pretty amusing considering that 1)
the traditional definition of science fiction among sf fandom is "I know
what it is when I point at it", and 2) a few vocal science fiction fans
frequently argue that a great deal of what is generally sold as science
fiction is really NOT science fiction, but really mush-brain fantasy,
better labelled as science fantasy than science fiction.  The debate
on-list seems to be heavily about "the marvellous", which is interesting
considering that sf fans seem unable to discuss what is sf or why do
they like sf without mentioning sensawunder -- I mean, "sense of
wonder", a term so commonly used that it developed the above mentioned
nickname.

Amy Z wrote:
> (PPs don't do too well in these books, do
> they?  Peter Pettigrew, Piers Polkiss--if Muggles could be
> Slytherins, he'd be one--Pansy Parkinson.  Poppy Pomfrey is the
> exception.  But I think of Poppy as a nickname for Mary or
> Margaret,  not sure why.)

Parvati Patil, Padma Patil.

Speaking of people who don't do too well in these books, there was
recent discussion of all the villainous characters who are blonde, and a
suggestion that this showed that JKR doesn't like blondes (if Gilderoy
Lockhart is, as suggested, her ex-husband, that makes sense). Last night
I put 2 + 2 together (slow on the uptake, Kitten!). With all the
descriptions of Cedric's conventional good looks, I always see him as
blond (golden) haired and blue eyed, but JKR specifically SAID his hair
is brown. If she has a squick, she just goes Yuck whenever she sees
blonde hair, she would quickly change a Good Guy's hair to brown!

Dai wrote:
> Sorry Rita but I don't see it. In my post #10681 I analysed the
> sorting hat song from GoF which fairly clearly placed Griffindors
> origins outside of Wales. Also, the golden dragon and red dragon have
> both been symbols of Wales going back years (to Roman times), and
> these are often mistaken for Griffons.

I remain convinced that the Hat's verbiage about dale, glen, fen, vale
was just poetic license (the words rhymed!). Further, that when the
Founders came together to found Hogwarts, they came from their latest
place of residence rather than from their birthplaces, and Godric had
been a travellin' wizard, first leaving home to fight as a mercenary, I
mean man-at-arms, among the Saxons who changed his name, then going off
pirating with Northmen, which may have included visits to France and
Byzantium as well as raids, before fetching up in the Danelaw and
meeting/marrying Helga Hufflepuff. Who knows where Godric and Helga were
living at the time that some friend owled them that Rowena Ravenclaw was
going to found a school and needed some older and wiser heads to guide
her?

[btw I see Helga as blonde with long, fat, braids even tho' red hair is
attested among Danes. To me, it's Rowena Ravenclaw who's the redhead of
the group (long DARK red hair like Lily's) despite being the Saxon (and
the youngest), because the name Rowena always makes me thinking of Rowan
Tree.]

I confess I had not known that the Golden Dragon was a symbol of Wales
-- I only knew about the Red Dragon. With this new-to-me info, I can
reinforce that Gryffindor really does mean Gryphon d'Or and that is WHY
Gryffydd Glyndwr ALLOWED the Sais to call him Gryffindor.

Eggplant wrote:
> This is how I would write the first chapter of a certain book you may
have heard of.

Hey, Eggplant, I like the story and want to know what happens next!
Altho' I think you may be making it too heavy for Book 5 -- will there
be enough danger and angst and new powers left for Book 7? And if
writing The Book on Magic Without Wands and Easy Animagery was James and
Lily's big-deal job that had something to do with why V wanted to kill
them and Harry, then JKR said their job would be revealed in Book 7, not
5.

I previously wrote:
> I think, unless Snape had a LOT of time to think about what he was
> doing, he would not be thinking of that silly debt to Harry's father,
> but rather of his duty to serve the Light, fight the Dark, and make
> Dumbledore proud of him, and he would not be thinking of making Harry
> feel guilty, but rather that death would release him from his own
> burden of guilt. And horrible memories. And hated job."

And that got more replies than, I think, anything else I've ever posted.

Margaret Dean questioned my mention of Snape's hated job. (I did put it
as his afterthought to an afterthought.) I am one who believes that
Snape LOVES Potions and doesn't want the DADA job, but I think he hates
teaching. To me, he may be proud of what a good teacher he is (!) and
may believe that it is his DUTY to teach the next generation, but he
still HATES dealing with students who are less clever and less
interested in Potions than he was at their age.

It occurred to me while I was typing this multi-topic post that Snape's
heroic death would be more angsty if something had just happened to ease
his pain and give him a reason to live and THEN he had to die. (Then the
conflict wouldn't be simply between the biological instinct to go on
living on one side and everything else on the other side.) The usual
something is falling in requited love -- I am aware of the axiom that
'love solves all' is a literary gimmick that doesn't work in real life
(where one must FIRST be healed in order to THEN be loved), but it FEELS
like it works in real life: falling in love is a wonderful drug like
hashish or something which FEELS like the pain was wiped out and
replaced by happiness. OTOH, it is SUCH a cliche that many readers would
cuss at the cliche rather than cry in shared pain.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 10 23:00:17 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:00:17 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
In-Reply-To: <98e294+q8j6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98ebm1+qqii@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14063

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
 
> So whether we're talking about "scientific" or "magical" 
> understanding, the tools are the same. Our 'eclectricity' and plugs 
> (all our science and technology) are substitutes for magic that we 
> Muggles are forced to use. Magic replaces technology. That wouldn't 
> happen in Tolkien's world.
	Look at your words. What you describe is not magic replacing 
technology, but technology replacing magic. And that is exactly what 
happens in Tolkien's world when the Fourth Age arrives and all that 
belongs to the elder eras fades and is forgotten.
	
   The Lord of the Rings is not a science fiction story, even though 
the Elven smiths use research to create the Elven rings, and Sauron 
steals their secrets in order to construct the One, because the story 
is not about that. It is not about Frodo trying to learn about  the One 
Ring, it is about Frodo trying to get rid of it. Frodo never has to 
figure  out how to do that, all the information he needs is revealed to 
him.
	Now I will agree that Rowling's magic is very technological, in 
the broad sense. It can be studied, it uses tools and devices. Harry 
studies that technology, but the stories are not about that. It is 
never anything Harry has figured out about  magic which enables him to 
escape the final crisis at the end of each book. Even when he conjures 
the Patronus at the end of book three, he does it without really 
knowing how. The narration makes a point of saying that Harry doesn't 
know the fang will destroy the diary in CoS. 
	That's different than the only Lord Darcy I have read, where Darcy 
figures out that magic couldn't have been used to kill the victim, who 
was in fact slain by a perfectly ordinary sword.
	It's also different than typical science fiction, say, a Star Trek 
episode, where it is always something the crew figures out about the 
situation which enables them to resolve it. Ohh! the Horta's a mother, 
ohh! this planet's really an amusement park, ohh! Nils is a Klingon. 
You get the idea.
Pippin





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 10 23:26:47 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:26:47 -0000
Subject: Apologies to PPs - convention? - Ron/Squid
In-Reply-To: <3AAAAFFA.20E69A2B@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <98ed7n+p637@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14064

Catlady pointed out:

> Parvati Patil, Padma Patil.

Okay, I guess that theory is shot to hell.  Unless the Patils are 
going to go over to Voldemort, driven to Dark Magic by the loutish 
treatment they received at the hands of those stars of Gryffindor and 
The Side of Right, Ron and Harry...  Nah, Amy, give it up.  JKR just 
seems to like naming a lot of characters PP.

BTW, Ebony mentioned an HP convention . . . is anyone actually 
starting to work on such a thing?  Please say yes!  That would be so 
cool.  Sign me up for the filksing!

Re: Ron/Squid:  Cassie, I believe the squid already has something 
going with the twins and Lee:

"The Weasley twins and Lee Jordan were tickling the tentacles of a 
giant squid, which was basking in the warm shallows" (PS/SS ch16).  
Ooh la la...

Ron might have to settle for Myrtle.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
 "We could all have been killed--or worse, expelled."
                   -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------------




From MrsRyan6 at aol.com  Sat Mar 10 23:59:47 2001
From: MrsRyan6 at aol.com (MrsRyan6 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:59:47 -0000
Subject: Muggle for Harry
Message-ID: <98ef5j+djc2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14065

I just discovered this board and I am so excited!  I teach 6th grade 
and I have taught the first book the last two years.(you would not 
believe lessons that can be developed from this book!)   My students 
enjoy it more than anything else we do all year.  I also read books 
2, 3 and this year, 4 out-loud to the students.  I am going to enjoy 
talking to some adults about this wonderful story.  My own 7 year old 
is having me read the first book to him every night.  I love Harry 
and am looking forward to sharing thoughts and ideas with each of you.
Take care
Wendy




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Sun Mar 11 01:48:25 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (Star)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:48:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ron likes Hermione?
Message-ID: <20010311014825.665C436F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14066

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010310/8ed942b3/attachment.ksh>

From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Mar 11 01:57:27 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 01:57:27 -0000
Subject: For the love of Snape
Message-ID: <98em27+juvo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14067

  Hi-
Thanks to everyone for reading my post about Snape dying for Harry.  I 
was so glad to read that you liked it.  I have to give credit to my 
mom, though, for suggesting it - I just went with it from there (yes, 
I made her read all 4 books!).

Anyway, does anyone else think Snape is as complicated as I do?  It's 
so interesting to me that he hates Harry and his Gryffindor friends so 
much, was once a death eater, and yet is so loyal to Dumbledore - we 
know from the Pensieve that he tells Dumbledore some very private 
things.  I never thought that he had a thing for Lily until I read 
your posts - how interesting.  It certainly raises questions for me as 
to why he really hated James so much in the first place...

I find that I just can't hate Snape.  In fact, I like him quite a bit.  
I am very much looking forward to seeing him more developed in the 
next books.  Will he always so openly hate Harry, or will we see a 
change of heart in him?  Hmmm...

--Jenny from Ravenclaw

"Or maybe," said a very cold voice right behind them, "he's waiting to 
hear why you two didn't arrive on the school train."
--Severus S




From margdean at erols.com  Sun Mar 11 02:42:41 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:42:41 -0500
Subject: Snape's Job II
References: <3AAAAFFA.20E69A2B@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3AAAE621.9B3D36E4@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14068

Catlady wrote:

> Margaret Dean questioned my mention of Snape's hated job. (I did put it
> as his afterthought to an afterthought.) I am one who believes that
> Snape LOVES Potions and doesn't want the DADA job, but I think he hates
> teaching. To me, he may be proud of what a good teacher he is (!) and
> may believe that it is his DUTY to teach the next generation, but he
> still HATES dealing with students who are less clever and less
> interested in Potions than he was at their age.

Yes!!  cf. his comment in his introductory speech to his class
about the "dunderheads I usually have to teach."  Snape is not a
person who suffers fools gladly.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From bohners at pobox.com  Sun Mar 11 02:46:39 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:46:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Cup as Portkey Question
References: <98dagj+adj8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <085901c0a9d5$832d82e0$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14069

Trina --

Only one problem with your logic.  It tells us why the Cup was rigged to
return to Hogwarts, but it still doesn't tell us why they used the Cup for
the portkey and didn't use something far simpler like (as you suggested, to
my considerable amusement) Harry's toothbrush.  Surely *that* could have
been enchanted to return Voldemort & Co. to Hogwarts just as easily as the
Cup?
--
The Marauder's Map
rebeccaj at pobox.com
only 41% obsessed -- what's a girl gotta do?




From margdean at erols.com  Sun Mar 11 03:06:11 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:06:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Cup as Portkey Question
References: <98dagj+adj8@eGroups.com> <085901c0a9d5$832d82e0$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <3AAAEBA3.73FCC247@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14070

"Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote:
> 
> Trina --
> 
> Only one problem with your logic.  It tells us why the Cup was rigged to
> return to Hogwarts, but it still doesn't tell us why they used the Cup for
> the portkey and didn't use something far simpler like (as you suggested, to
> my considerable amusement) Harry's toothbrush.  Surely *that* could have
> been enchanted to return Voldemort & Co. to Hogwarts just as easily as the
> Cup?

Yes, but then they'd all appear in the boys' bathroom.  =Most=
undignified.  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From jferer at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 03:04:36 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 03:04:36 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
In-Reply-To: <98ebm1+qqii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98eq04+s37q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14071

Pippin:"It's also different than typical science fiction, say, a Star 
Trek episode, where it is always something the crew figures out about 
the situation which enables them to resolve it. Ohh! the Horta's a 
mother, ohh! this planet's really an amusement park, ohh! Nils is a 
Klingon. You get the idea."

I don't know what typical science fiction is. Is it Heinlein and 
Asimov, or is it Orson Scott Card, or is it Philip K. Dick?  I just 
spanned an immense distance there.  There is more than enough room in 
science fiction/speculative fiction to include Harry Potter's world. 
Does Harry Potter have more in common with Randall Garrett's work or 
with the Lord of the Rings? Or with Robert Jordan's work?

Ebony said it best. In fantasy, there is no objective Outside, no 
distinction between the tangible and the psyche. "What occurs in the 
mind can just  as easily occur physically, because there is no real 
difference between the two." (Ebony)




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 04:24:15 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:24:15 -0000
Subject: The Cup as Portkey Question
In-Reply-To: <3AAAEBA3.73FCC247@erols.com>
Message-ID: <98eulf+mn37@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14072

Trina (?) wrote:
"Only one problem with your logic.  It tells us why the Cup was 
rigged to return to Hogwarts, but it still doesn't tell us why they 
used the Cup for the portkey and didn't use something far simpler 
like (as you suggested, to my considerable amusement) Harry's 
toothbrush.  Surely *that* could have been enchanted to return 
Voldemort & Co. to Hogwarts just as easily as the Cup?"

Margaret wrote:
"Yes, but then they'd all appear in the boys' bathroom.  =Most=
undignified.  :)"

--Not to mention the fact that by using the Cup as a portkey they 
would've been right there at Dumbledore, the other Hogwarts teacher's 
and the Minister of Magic just to name a few. 

Not to mention it would've been far more dramatic than popping into 
the loo and scaring a bunch of teenage boys taking showers... :-)

Scott  





From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sun Mar 11 04:27:48 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:27:48 -0000
Subject: The Cup as Portkey Question
In-Reply-To: <085901c0a9d5$832d82e0$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <98eus4+r5aj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14073

"Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner wrote in response to my portkey theory:
> Trina --
> 
> Only one problem with your logic.  It tells us why the Cup was 
rigged to return to Hogwarts, but it still doesn't tell us why they 
used the Cup for the portkey and didn't use something far simpler 
like (as you suggested, to my considerable amusement) Harry's 
toothbrush.  Surely *that* could have been enchanted to return 
Voldemort & Co. to Hogwarts just as easily as the Cup?


Yes, but it would not have the theatricality of returning in front of 
the entire school and honored guests, and let's face it, Voldy likes 
putting on a show.  He's been exiled for 13 years by a fluke of 
chance (in his eyes at least) in the form of an unkillable baby.  He 
doesn't just want to kill Harry and quietly get on with his hostile 
takeover; he wants everyone to *know* he's killed Harry and that he 
and his minions are back in force.  Arriving on the Hogwarts grounds 
on some idle Tuesday when no one is around would not have the visual 
and emotional impact of arriving in front of an audience who is 
already worried about Harry's disappearance.  Can you imagine being 
in the stands, seeing Harry touch the Cup and vanish, only to have 
You-know-who and an army of hooded goons show up?  

Trina, prepared to defend this theory to the death--or at least until 
it is completely disproven.




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Mar 11 04:36:36 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:36:36 -0000
Subject: Taunt Your Children Well (a Snape Filk)
Message-ID: <98evck+dsu6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14074

Taunt Your Children Well

(To the Tune of Teach Your Children Well)

(The Scene: Potions Class. Enter SEVERUS SNAPE)

SNAPE
Taunt your children well 
Put them through Hell
Inside the classroom

When it's time to teach 
Be sure to screech
And make `em sense doom 

As the Potions Prof
They won't dare scoff
Cause you're the top wiz

Surprise them all with tests
Make them detest 
And fear each pop quiz

Persecute a student's toad
His self-esteem you will corrode
And within him seeds you've sowed 
To make him hate you

Flash a mocking smile
And assign a pile
Of dreary homework

Watch their spirit fade
As a failing grade
You grant with a smirk

In your seminar
You can start war
If you play favorites

Select a teacher's pet
The rest forget
Sit back and savor it

Give each child what he deserves
You'll augment his learning curve
If you jangle all his nerves
Until he hates you
Uh-huh!

   - CMC





From Court6702 at aol.com  Sun Mar 11 04:38:12 2001
From: Court6702 at aol.com (Court6702 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:38:12 -0000
Subject: The Cup as Portkey Question
In-Reply-To: <98eus4+r5aj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98evfk+q2k9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14075

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Trina" <lj2d30 at g...> wrote:
> "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner wrote in response to my portkey theory:
> > Trina --
> > 
> > Only one problem with your logic.  It tells us why the Cup was 
> rigged to return to Hogwarts, but it still doesn't tell us why they 
> used the Cup for the portkey and didn't use something far simpler 
> like (as you suggested, to my considerable amusement) Harry's 
> toothbrush.  Surely *that* could have been enchanted to return 
> Voldemort & Co. to Hogwarts just as easily as the Cup?

Here is another problem about the Portkey.  This group might have 
discussed this already but as I have just joined I wouldn't know.  
How is it that the Portkey worked when in the beginning of the book 
Arthur Weasley stated that Portkeys worked at predestined times?  
Moody couldn't possibly have known the exact time in which Harry and 
Cedric were to be touching the Cup.
-Courtney




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 04:50:04 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:50:04 -0000
Subject: Snape's job and death
In-Reply-To: <3AAAAFFA.20E69A2B@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <98f05s+ijgd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14076

Rita previously wrote:
"I think, unless Snape had a LOT of time to think about what he was
doing, he would not be thinking of that silly debt to Harry's father,
but rather of his duty to serve the Light, fight the Dark, and make
Dumbledore proud of him, and he would not be thinking of making Harry
feel guilty, but rather that death would release him from his own
burden of guilt. And horrible memories. And hated job.

"And that got more replies than, I think, anything else I've ever 
posted."

--Are you saying we don't listen to you? Excuse me did anyone hear 
something? Um, no I didn't think so :-)

Rita also wrote:
"Margaret Dean questioned my mention of Snape's hated job. (I did put 
it as his afterthought to an afterthought.) I am one who believes that
Snape LOVES Potions and doesn't want the DADA job, but I think he 
hates teaching. To me, he may be proud of what a good teacher he is 
(!) and may believe that it is his DUTY to teach the next generation, 
but he still HATES dealing with students who are less clever and less
interested in Potions than he was at their age."

--I don't think that Snape hates his job , because he doesn't hate 
the subject. How can you effectively teach something if you hate it? 
You can't. (Does that make sense?) I think that Snape hates his 
students. Not even all of them, but enough to make the job 
miserable.  If he really loves what he's doing then he maybe he 
should seek a job at Merlin College Oxford where he can teach 
graduate students like Ebony who only SAY they're going to study 
literature...

(Do Slytherins just do better at Potions than others. After all you 
can be VERY sneaky with a potion- i.e. Polyjuice, but not nearly as 
much with a charm.)

Rita also also wrote:
"It occurred to me while I was typing this multi-topic post that 
Snape's heroic death would be more angsty if something had just 
happened to ease his pain and give him a reason to live and THEN he 
had to die. (Then the conflict wouldn't be simply between the 
biological instinct to go on living on one side and everything else 
on the other side.) The usual something is falling in requited love
<snip>
(where one must FIRST be healed in order to THEN be loved), but it 
FEELS like it works in real life: falling in love is a wonderful drug 
like hashish or something which FEELS like the pain was wiped out and
replaced by happiness. OTOH, it is SUCH a cliche that many readers 
would cuss at the cliche rather than cry in shared pain."


--But you have to admit that it's quite a nice cliche, and one that 
we somehow enjoy no matter how many times it's repeated. Yes I think 
JKR could handle it to the point of which it is still interesting 
despite being cliched.

I think the idea of Snape falling in love is quite sweet, if not a 
bit mushy. However if you go with the whole "Snape loved Lily" thing 
then it would only work so well. 

Unless of course if Petunia discovers she's a witch, comes to 
Hogwarts, falls in love with Snape, and leaves Vernon for him. Snape 
falling in love with her because he knew that Lily always WANTED to 
forgive her sister but was never able to tell her so, and so he is 
not only finding true love but in a way honouring his first love... 
:-)

Scott
 




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Mar 11 05:40:03 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 05:40:03 -0000
Subject: my three year old; the trailer; explanations for young children../long
Message-ID: <98f33j+h7fg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14077

Well, my son is now three and a half....you can see his picture under 
Files, group members, JesseHarry.jpg...

He has known about HP for quite a while, having listened to tapes, 
and seen various books. He proclaimed last September that he wanted 
to be "Harry Powder" for Halloween, and of course, I acquiesced.

At three and a half, I felt that it was important that he see
the trailer so that eventually he would understand/not be upset by
the film that I will eventually purchase as a videotape.....I am of 
course entirely motivated by his welfare.....(all right, so we 
watched it ten times together)

So, anyway, he loved it..and got a lot of it immediately..
Owls!They send messages!
Harry is my favorite..
When we got to the picture of Dumbledore he said "Dumbledore. He is 
your friend and my friend" !!!!

What was interesting was that he wanted to understand the whole 
beginnings of the plot..so I had to explain that Lord Voldemort
(the bad guy) had killed Harry's parents and had tried to kill Harry, 
but failed (Jesse is now at dinner time saying VIVA! Long live Harry, 
the boy who lived!") I'm not making this up....

What was interesting was my explanation of the first part of the 
book....and his interpretation....(note: he has seen the Sword in the 
Stone and likes it a lot)...


My explanation:  Voldemort tried to kill Harry and failed.....and 
then Hagrid rescued Harry, and Dumbledore decided to send Harry 
somewhere where he would be safe until he went to Hogwarts....

But the problem was that he sent him to his Uncle Vernon and Aunt 
Petunia and they didn't like him...

Jesse says "Why? Why they not like him?"

Me: "Uh, well, because they were bigots..they were uh prejudiced 
against wizards and witches.."

Jesse: "They bullies?"

Me: " yes, that's right, sweetheart, so they didn't treat Harry very 
well...They thought that anyone who was a wizard or a witch was bad"

Me: So Dumbledore sent Harry to safety, but the safe place wasn't as 
good as it could have been."

Jesse: "Like King Arthur?"

Me: (dumfounded) "yes?"

Jesse: Merlin sent Wart to place they weren't nice to him (remember 
folks that in the Sword in the Stone video, Sir Ector and Kay were 
really awful to Arthur)

Me: yes, that's right darling...they wanted to keep Wart safe until 
he could become king, just like Dumbledore wanted to keep Harry safe..

Okay, so these explanations, discussions continued for several hours 
on and off......but I found it fascinating that my almost four year 
old son found a parallel I had not thought of, but should have, given 
that I've read the Once and Future King about ten times...

And what did Jesse like best?

"The goblins! But, Mommy, why goblins in bank? Why Harry go there to 
get money?:  

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Mar 11 05:44:41 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 05:44:41 -0000
Subject: Not The Order Of The Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <98dj9b+j34a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98f3c9+o1s4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14078

Respectfully, moderator team, should this not be labeled as Fan 
Fiction?

I realize that I am in the (vocal) minority, but I do not read
fan fiction and do not really want to.....

susan




From andrea at noembromation.com.br  Sun Mar 11 05:48:15 2001
From: andrea at noembromation.com.br (andrea at noembromation.com.br)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 05:48:15 -0000
Subject: Why Voldemort wanted to spare Lily
Message-ID: <98f3iv+m4su@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14079

Hi, everyone!

My sister's just finished PoA and was totally blown away ("Geez, I'd 
thought Book 2 was *good*, but this beats the hell out of it!","I 
told you!") We were talking about the whole business of Harry being 
merciful to Peter and Dumbledore's words about how Peter now owed 
Harry something. That got me thinking...

What if the same thing happened to Lily and Voldemort? What if Lily 
once showed mercy to Voldemort, and he had that debt with her? 
Dumbledore said it's a powerful connection. Maybe, because of a 
prophecy or something, Voldy had to kill James and Harry, but 
*couldn't* kill Lily. Then, when he actually got to murder her, it 
all turned back to him, because he had broken the magical bond. 
That'd be why he wanted to spare her in the first place. I mean, the 
guy's a big time baddy, has killed lots of people, why would he care 
about murdering an extra one? He finished Cedric off without thinking 
twice.

Does it make any sense, or is it too late for me to be awake?

Andrea, from Brazil




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Mar 11 05:52:05 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 05:52:05 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
In-Reply-To: <98e294+q8j6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98f3q5+74vl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14080

sorry, but I think that it is quite clear that harry potter
is fantasy and not science fiction (and CERTAINLY NOT Sci-Fi)

Could our acknowledged scientific knowledge and practice be extended 
to the future..if yes, then its science fiction...

but when you introduce magic.....it's fantasy

Susan




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Mar 11 06:00:06 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:00:06 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Cup as Portkey Question
In-Reply-To: <98eus4+r5aj@eGroups.com>
References: <085901c0a9d5$832d82e0$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010310214841.03936100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14081

At 04:27 AM 3/11/01 +0000, Trina wrote:
>Yes, but it would not have the theatricality of returning in front of
>the entire school and honored guests, and let's face it, Voldy likes
>putting on a show.  He's been exiled for 13 years by a fluke of
>chance (in his eyes at least) in the form of an unkillable baby.  He
>doesn't just want to kill Harry and quietly get on with his hostile
>takeover; he wants everyone to *know* he's killed Harry and that he
>and his minions are back in force.

Which on reflection seems actually a bit foolish on Voldy's part.
Isn't he in a better position this way, with the Wizarding World
more divided than the Democrats, half of them refusing to believe
he's back?  A dramatic demonstration would have united the good
guys and "filled them with a terrible resolve", to quote one unusally
wise Japanese warlord who saw the folly of Pearl Harbor.



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Mar 11 06:15:08 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:15:08 -0800
Subject: Why Voldemort wanted the Potters dead?
In-Reply-To: <98f3iv+m4su@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010310220632.00baa730@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14082

Has anyone else read a disturbing little editorial in the National Review
entitled, "Chelsea Clinton, Be Very Afraid", by John Derbyshire?
I'm not saying that Mr. Derbyshire is any Voldemort, but reading
his views on the Clintons made me wonder: Given that Voldemort is
someone whose thinking is not exactly that of a normal rational person, is
it possible that the reason that he wants Harry dead is simply because
he's persuaded that the Potter family are genetically corrupt and
degenerate and that they *all* must be exterminated to save all of
Wizard-kind?



                                                 -- Dave




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Mar 11 06:19:42 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 06:19:42 -0000
Subject: religion, that website, and HP
Message-ID: <98f5du+q89f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14083

Taking a big risk here...

In response to the (what some might call) Christian web site about 
Harry Potter, I think I'd like to suggest the following:

 - The significant opposition/concerns about HP come from
those who identify as Christian
 - These are Christians who represent a minority of Christians in the 
United States..
 - There are many Christians on this list who support and embrace HP,
and endorse the understanding that JKR is not anti-Christian, and 
that the values in the books are about courage, commitment, goodness, 
morality, and that they are congruent with Christian values..
and therefore Christians should not apologize for the censorship/
ignorance/lack of understanding that some Christians embody...

That (more controversially)

pagans (also known as modern day witches..usually not 
wizards..usually male witches are called witches)
do not

embrace, endorse or support evil
worship Satan (Satan as the enemy of God is a Christian, Jewish, 
Islamic concept)

Pagans are in general an earth-based spiritual tradition that 
invokes the Goddess and/or the God.....as positive forces in the 
universe....

That, in my opinion, JKR is not a pagan, nor a witch (in modern day 
understanding) and that the HP universe is a mythological construct
and is magical, but not pagan in a spiritual sense.

That, therefore, pagans and Christians and Jews, find much to 
resonate with in the HP stories......


The website talks about how Tolkien and Lewis really contributed
to the slide towards Satanism that ended in JKR's works....

Susan McGee





From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 11 07:45:50 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 07:45:50 -0000
Subject: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
In-Reply-To: <98c18r+goqe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98fafe+rnuo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14084

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:
> >I love Harry so.  It would break my heart if he had to die.
> 
> Truer words never spoken!  Only at this site would I proudly admit 
how 
> in love with Harry Potter I am (and I mean Harry Potter himself).  
The 
> thought of Harry dying is painful (and JKR herself has alluded to 
> that) and might change my feelings about the books (as I did when I 
> read the last installment of the Narnia series - I think I've even 
> mentioned that before).  So I won't dwell on the death of Harry.
> 
> I think something that Harry has had to deal with in his life so 
far 
> is GUILT.  He is alive when his parents aren't, he has money when 
his 
> best friend doesn't, and he had to witness the murder of an 
innocent 
> and very good person while he, once again, lived.  JKR could very 
well 
> use that angle, by having someone important to Harry die to save 
him, 
> yet again, from Voldie.  Dumbledore (the only wizard other than 
Harry 
> Voldie is afraid of) is my favorite (and also heartbreaking) 
> candidate.  Yet there is another that is quite wonderfully 
> complicated...
> 
> Severus Snape.  We know he is NOT bad, yet we all love to hate him 
for 
> and with Harry.  Wouldn't it just blow us away if Snapey was the 
one 
> to help vanquish Voldemort after all - and lose his own life in the 
> process?  Just like we all dislike certain people but wouldn't wish 
> death on them, Harry would have a lot to deal with if Snape died 
while  
> helping Harry.
> 
> Somehow, I can't see Ron or Hermione dying - neither is powerful 
> enough to really take on Voldie - though Hermione comes close.  And 
we 
> know Pettigrew still owes Harry big time, and we also kinda know 
he'll 
> pay up.  
> 
> I'll stick with Snape, thank you very much.
> 
> --Jenny from Ravenclaw
> --61% obsessed (still not enough for me)
> --100% R/He shipper

For Harry to be able to have the choice of 'killing', he will first 
have to *know* how to use the curses.  I can't quite see him going 
off to the library and looks it up in the restricted section.
Someone would have to take the initiative to teach him.  I nominate 
our dear Potions Master for the job, who after all has already taught 
Harry one useful spell (and fast becoming the spell for all 
occasion)  Mainly because I can't see any other teacher doing it, not 
even the real Moody.

I can really see Snape dies to protect Harry but not defeating 
Voldemort.  The book is called Harry Potter after all and like it or 
not, the series on the whole does follow a popular formula -- 
although I would dearly love to see Snape defeating V.

How about this: Snape dies in the middle of BK. 7 to help Harry to 
escape back to Hogwarts; (thus giving Harry (and JKR) plenty of time 
to milk all possible angst out of it) Harry blame himself because if 
only he had used the killing curse on V, Snape would have been saved; 
big V attacks Hogwarts; tries to use the killing curse on either Ron 
or Hermione and this time Harry seizes the chance ...






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 11 07:54:29 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:54:29 -0800
Subject: Granger - technology - Snape - Triwizard Portkey - Lily
Message-ID: <3AAB2F32.B78FBAF7@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14085

Part of my insanity is my conviction that Cressida Granger, who owns the
company that makes Lava Lites, is Hermione Granger's much older sister
-- both their personal names come from Shakespeare. My web searching
turned up tons of stuff on her company and their products but nothing on
her personally. So I asked my friend whose web searches always work, and
she found that Ms. Cressida was born in 1963. I know people who've had a
'change of life baby' 17 years after they thought they'd completed their
family! The article is called Magic of the lamp lights up the path to
success: http://www.lineone.net/express/00/11/05/city/m0300-d.html

Pippin wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> > So whether we're talking about "scientific" or "magical"
> > understanding, the tools are the same. Our 'eclectricity' and plugs
> > (all our science and technology) are substitutes for magic that we
> > Muggles are forced to use. Magic replaces technology. That
> > wouldn't happen in Tolkien's world.
> Look at your words. What you describe is not magic replacing
> technology, but technology replacing magic. And that is exactly
> what happens in Tolkien's world when the Fourth Age arrives
> and all that belongs to the elder eras fades and is forgotten.

The wizarding folk tell Harry that electricity and Sony Gameboys are the
stuff Muggles invented to make up for our lack of magic. I feel that the
real situation is more complicated. At first, Muggle tinkerers invented
things to accomplish results they had seen when visiting wizards --
indoor plumbing with flush toilets, for example. But at some point,
Muggle inventions got ahead of wizarding magic, and the situation
changed to wizarding folk trying to invent magic things to accomplish
results that they see when visiting Muggles. For example, it is obvious
from its NAME that the Wizarding Wireless Network was invented to
imitate Muggle wireless -- they wouldn't be inspired to call a wave on
in the air, a song on the wind, "wire less" since they hadn't had an
earlier version WITH wires (i.e. the telegraph). I speculate that the
transition occurred during the Gaslight Era -- gas lights were invented
to imitate wizarding automatic candles and railway trains were invented
to imitate wizarding self-propelled carriages. But electric light, an
improvement over wizarding automatic candles (except when there are
rolling blackouts), was an original Muggle invention.

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> Anyway, does anyone else think Snape is as complicated as I do?

There are a ton of people who love Snape, enough that they have at least
one egroup dedicated only to discussing Snape, which I am not in and do
not know the URL off-hand, even tho' I enjoy Snape's complicated
messed-up mind enough to write fic about him. Pippin wrote a song in
post #6914 of this group:

>To the tune of: A Bicycle Built for Two
> [Enter Pippin, Dinah, Amanda and others]

> Snape-y, Snape-y,
> Give us your answer do.
> We're half crazy,
> All for the love of you.
> We know that you would disparage
> A wizard-Muggle marriage,
> But come, we entreat,
> To the Prefect's bath suite,
> And we'll give you a good shampoo!

Rebecca Bohner wrote:
> Trina --
> Only one problem with your logic.  It tells us why the Cup was
> rigged to return to Hogwarts, but it still doesn't tell us why they
> used the Cup for the portkey and didn't use something far simpler
> like (as you suggested, to my considerable amusement) Harry's
> toothbrush.  Surely *that* could have been enchanted to return
> Voldemort & Co. to Hogwarts just as easily as the Cup?

IIRC the last time this subject came around, it was suggested that it is
normally impossible to use a Portkey at Hogwarts, much the same way that
it is impossible to Apparate at Hogwarts. But that the Triwizard Cup
already was a Portkey with an exemption to that rule, because it was
supposed to bring the Champion to the judges' stand. Thus, converting
the Cup to a Portkey to the graveyard saved young Crouch from having to
create his own exception to the no-Portkey-at-Hogwarts rule. Maybe only
Dumbledore is a great enough wizard or only Dumbledore knows the
necessary secret spell to create an exemption to the hypothetical
no-Portkey-at-Hogwarts rule.

Courtney asked:
> How is it that the Portkey worked when in the beginning of the book
> Arthur Weasley stated that Portkeys worked at predestined times?
> Moody couldn't possibly have known the exact time in which Harry
> and Cedric were to be touching the Cup.

IIRC Arthur explained that there are several kinds of Portkeys and one
kind is set to work at a pre-set time; that's the kind that they used to
go to the World Cup. But the Triwizard Cup is another kind, a kind that
works at any time that a witch or wizard touches it.

Andrea from Brazil wrote:
> What if Lily once showed mercy to Voldemort, and he had
> that debt with her? Dumbledore said it's a powerful connection.
> Maybe, because of a prophecy or something, Voldy had to
> kill James and Harry, but *couldn't* kill Lily. Then, when he
> actually got to murder her, it all turned back to him, because
> he had broken the magical bond. That'd be why he wanted to
> spare her in the first place. I mean, the guy's a big time baddy,
> has killed lots of people, why would he care about murdering
> an extra one? He finished Cedric off without thinking twice.

I've never heard this suggestion before, and it does make sense. I'm
going to be brooding all night whether I can think up any little scrap
of a reason to contradict this.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 09:55:01 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 01:55:01 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Cup as Portkey Question
References: <98dagj+adj8@eGroups.com> <085901c0a9d5$832d82e0$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <00a801c0aa11$58673a60$70e01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14086

The only reason I can think of, why the cup had to be used, rather
than any ordinary item belonging to Harry, is that portkeys won't work
inside the castle. Similar to the inability to apparate onto Hogwarts
grounds.

Rena

> Only one problem with your logic.  It tells us why the Cup was
rigged to
> return to Hogwarts, but it still doesn't tell us why they used the
Cup for
> the portkey and didn't use something far simpler like (as you
suggested, to
> my considerable amusement) Harry's toothbrush.  Surely *that* could
have
> been enchanted to return Voldemort & Co. to Hogwarts just as easily
as the
> Cup?
> --
> The Marauder's Map
> rebeccaj at pobox.com
> only 41% obsessed -- what's a girl gotta do?
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted
to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to
sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages,
point your cyberbroomstick at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more
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>


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From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 10:11:59 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 02:11:59 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Cup as Portkey Question
References: <98evfk+q2k9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c201c0aa13$b7248ba0$70e01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14087

> Here is another problem about the Portkey.  This group might have
> discussed this already but as I have just joined I wouldn't know.
> How is it that the Portkey worked when in the beginning of the book
> Arthur Weasley stated that Portkeys worked at predestined times?
> Moody couldn't possibly have known the exact time in which Harry and
> Cedric were to be touching the Cup.

Maybe the portkeys to the quidditch game were set to work at
predestined times so that the wizards wouldn't all arrive at the same
time. I can easily imagine that it is possible to make them work in
both directions and on touch even set in a way it will only do one
return trip.

Rena



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 11 10:20:08 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:20:08 -0000
Subject: What do the onlookers see?
Message-ID: <98fjgo+q3sv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14088

Trina asked:
> Can you imagine being 
> in the stands, seeing Harry touch the Cup and vanish, only to have 
> You-know-who and an army of hooded goons show up?  

This raises a question I was saving for next month when we're out of 
character sketches and chapter summaries, but what the heck, it's come 
up so I'll ask it now.  Maybe I should ask JKR.  I also want to ask 
her to finish Dumbledore's joke from GF ch 12.  *What* happens when a 
troll, a hag, and a leprechaun go into a bar together?  But back to 
the third task:

What do the onlookers see during the 3rd Task?  Can they see down into 
the maze?  If so, don't they see Krum attacking Cedric (and possibly 
Moody attacking Fleur, blasting various obstacles out of Harry's way, 
etc.)?  Or can they not see anything?  (Like the 2nd Task, it doesn't 
seem like a very interesting spectator event in that case...)

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------------
  "Do you mean to tell me," he growled at the Dursleys, "that
this boy--this boy!--knows nothin' abou'--about ANYTHING?" 
  Harry thought this was going a bit far. 
                               -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
---------------------------------------------------------------




From john at walton.to  Sun Mar 11 10:41:28 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:41:28 +0000
Subject: ADMIN: Re: Not The Order Of The Phoenix (FF authors take note)
In-Reply-To: <98f3c9+o1s4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6D106D8.DCB2%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14089

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> Respectfully, moderator team, should this not be labeled as Fan
> Fiction?
> 
> I realize that I am in the (vocal) minority, but I do not read
> fan fiction and do not really want to.....
> 
> susan

A note from the Mods:

While we enjoyed eggplant's fanfiction, HPFGU is not really the place to
post it in its entirety. The proper procedure is:

1) Post it at fanfiction.net, HP_FanFiction YahooGroup or, as a last resort,
in the files section here.

2) Send an email to HPFGU-Announcements announcing (geddit?) your fic and
including the URL -- do NOT send the entire thing to the list.

3) The Moderators will approve the message and it will go to everybody on
the Announcements list.

Thanks for listening,

--John

________________________________________________

John "Diet Coke Addict" Walton                 john at walton.to

=| HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47

=| The Moderators say: "Do you want a better career? Sure, we all do. So
read the Very FAQ and Make More Money!"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
________________________________________________




From john at walton.to  Sun Mar 11 10:57:23 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:57:23 +0000
Subject: ADMIN: Questions, questions, questions
In-Reply-To: <00e001c0aa14$74dbbec0$70e01b3f@rena>
Message-ID: <B6D10A93.DCB6%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14090

Hi again from the friendly Moderator Team.

We seem to be having a spate of folks asking questions that we all asked
back when we were newbies -- who is Nancy Stouffer (not Schafer)? -- What's
this Obsessiveness Test?

Well, the Moderators have taken the time to put together a whole heap of
information to answer your questions. It can all be found in the Files
Section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files

Read all the files there, but especially the VFAQ, Netiquette, Shorthand and
Welcome Message files.

And then, if you still have questions, fire them away to the list or to the
Moderators at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com

Cheers,

--John

________________________________________________

John "Diet Coke Addict" Walton                 john at walton.to

=| HPforGrownups Moderator With Rock #47

=| The Moderators say: "Do you want a better career? Sure, we all do. So
read the Very FAQ and Make More Money!"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
________________________________________________




From john at walton.to  Sun Mar 11 11:05:32 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:05:32 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] religion, that website, and HP
In-Reply-To: <98f5du+q89f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6D10C7C.DCBA%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14091

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> That (more controversially)
> 
> pagans (also known as modern day witches..usually not
> wizards..usually male witches are called witches)

AKA also Wiccans, Druids, Shamans, or just Pagans. Interestingly, the
"default" name in the UK for Earth Religions is Paganism, while in the US it
appears to be Wicca, which is in fact a subgroup of Paganism. (i.e. Every
Wiccan is Pagan but not every Pagan is Wiccan.) You're correct in calling
male witches witches; another option is to call the Wiccan community as a
whole "The Wicca", as in "The Church" as a people.

> do not embrace, endorse or support evil
> worship Satan (Satan as the enemy of God is a Christian, Jewish,
> Islamic concept)

Entirely correct :) The JudeoChristian Satan is a corruption of the Pagan
Horned God -- except they turned the Horned God's antlers into bull horns
and made him the colour of a radish. Not to mention that silly tail.
Honestly! Talk about *totally* not-scary!

> Pagans are in general an earth-based spiritual tradition that
> invokes the Goddess and/or the God.....as positive forces in the
> universe....

The Goddess and God (some more feminist groups invoke only the Goddess, but
it doesn't work the other way round with masculist groups) are not exactly
"positive forces", more like Divine Creators. We embrace the shadow as well
as the light, the night as well as the day, seeing them as integral parts of
the Goddess and God and therefore the universe. We do not have a
Satan-figure to blame the Woes of the World (tm) on; rather, as day follows
night, we realise that good things follow the bad.

> That, in my opinion, JKR is not a pagan, nor a witch (in modern day
> understanding) and that the HP universe is a mythological construct
> and is magical, but not pagan in a spiritual sense.

Indeed. I have never flown on a broom, battled a troll (or, for that matter,
seen a flying car [sorry, Neil...]) or even an Evil Dark Wizard

> That, therefore, pagans and Christians and Jews, find much to
> resonate with in the HP stories...

People of all religions and people of no religion love HP!

--John

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///

John "Such a Witch!" Walton                 john at walton.to

Remember: socks then shoes.

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 11 11:09:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:09:34 -0000
Subject: Portkeys - Jesse - Why V wanted...
Message-ID: <98fmde+spc2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14092


Courtney asked:

>Here is another problem about the Portkey.  This group might have 
>discussed this already but as I have just joined I wouldn't know.  
>How is it that the Portkey worked when in the beginning of the book 
>Arthur Weasley stated that Portkeys worked at predestined times?  
>Moody couldn't possibly have known the exact time in which Harry and 
>Cedric were to be touching the Cup.

I think Arthur says that so that we know that Portkeys don't stay 
Portkeys indefinitely.  Otherwise it would be very dangerous; what if 
someone decided not to go to the Cup after reserving a Portkey, and 
the boot or popsicle stick or whatnot sat there for months until a 
litter-conscious Muggle picked it up?  So a Portkey only works for a 
particular period of time.  In the case of the QWC, when they're 
trying to coordinate thousands of arrivals, the window is very small. 
 In the case of the Cup (or toothbrush <g>), it can be set for a 
couple of hours.

Susan, your message 14077 got cut off.  Do write more and tell us what 
Jesse said about Harry Powder!

I'm going to chime in a minority opinion on the 
Why-Voldemort-Wanted-to-Kill-the-Potters/Didn't-Have-to-Kill-Lily 
question, and suggest that perhaps he didn't have to kill James 
either.  The text in question (from PS/SS ch17) *implies* that he 
viewed James and Lily differently, but it's not at all a sure thing.

  "How touching..." it hissed.  "I always value bravery...Yes, boy, 
your parents were brave....I killed your father first, and he put up a 
courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died...she was trying 
to protect you....Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have 
died in vain."

So, as far as we can tell from this and PoA, V showed up at the 
Potters' house, and Lily grabbed Harry and tried to run (she never 
even got out of the house).  V encountered James first and killed him, 
then turned on Harry.  But that still leaves open the possibility that 
he killed James only to get to Harry.  He just doesn't say so 
explicitly.  In Lily's case, she was actually holding Harry in her 
arms so the whole issue was much more pointed than with James, who was 
just out in the living room or whatnot on his own.

I also don't think we can read into this scene any particular 
reluctance on V's part to kill Lily.  She didn't need to die in that 
she wasn't his primary target, but that doesn't mean he was trying to 
avoid killing her.  So why didn't he just AK her without an argument 
and go on to Harry?  Perhaps just because she was a powerful witch and 
he didn't want to tangle with her any more than necessary.  (V, being 
clueless about love, would not have known what most people would know 
from the start:  that you can't ask a woman to hand over her son to 
save her own life and expect her to do it.  You may as well just kill 
her from the start and not argue with her...)

Amy Z
up way too early

--------------------------------------------------------
 "And now, before we go to bed, let us sing the school 
 song!" cried Dumbledore.  Harry noticed that the other 
 teachers' smiles had become rather fixed.
                     -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
--------------------------------------------------------




From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 11 13:05:57 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:05:57 -0000
Subject: For the love of Snape
In-Reply-To: <98em27+juvo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98ft7l+jmcj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14094

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meboriqua at a... wrote:

 
> I find that I just can't hate Snape.  In fact, I like him quite a 
bit.  
> I am very much looking forward to seeing him more developed in the 
> next books.  Will he always so openly hate Harry, or will we see a 
> change of heart in him?  Hmmm...
> 
I like Snape too, and judging by the number of fansites so do 
hundreds of other HP fans.  Several fanfics I have read suggest that 
Snape hates Harry because he always "gets there first" and sort of 
steals the limelight. Others say he has worked hard and risked his 
life to spy against Voldemort and resents the fact that Harry is 
given all credit fo his defeat.  There are also some people who think 
that Snape hates Harry and Gryffindors because they are all friends. 
Snape on the other hand was a loner, and Slytherins tend to stab each 
other in the back to get what they want. Some say Snape loved Lily 
but couldn't have her so he hates the product of her and James' love. 
The fact that Harry disregards the rules laid down to protect him may 
also annoy Snape. I personally like to think Snape has a special 
relationship with Dumbledore (not a slash) and he feels threatened by 
Harry's closeness to the Headmaster. 

There are many more theories out there, but these are all I can 
remember right now. I do not want him to have a change of heart, it 
doesn't suit my impression of Snape's character. I am looking forward 
to book 5, JKR has promised lots of Snape :). I just hope he will 
survive until book 7, I have a nasty feeling "lots of Snape, keep 
your eye on him" may possibly involve his death.

Sarah




From rboswell at mediaone.net  Sun Mar 11 13:44:13 2001
From: rboswell at mediaone.net (Rebecca Boswell)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:44:13 -0500
Subject: Portkey mysteries
References: <984251735.730.64878.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c0aa31$5c3d1400$d32c2241@se.mediaone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14095

    I have one question that has been bothering me for a while, and I was
wondering if you guys could help me with it.
    Why would Moody/Crouch have to get Harry to thew Triwizard Cup?
Couldn't be have just thrown Harry something that was a portkey, or knocked
him over the head and sent him to Voldemort?  And how could Harry get back
to Hogwarts if Portkeys have specific times where they work?

   --Becca




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 14:16:12 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 14:16:12 -0000
Subject: RE - technology - Snape - Harry's trousers again
In-Reply-To: <3AAB2F32.B78FBAF7@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <98g1bc+kd6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14096

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Catlady <catlady at w...> wrote:

> 
> Pippin wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> > > So whether we're talking about "scientific" or "magical"
> > > understanding, the tools are the same. Our 'eclectricity' and 
plugs
> > > (all our science and technology) are substitutes for magic that 
we
> > > Muggles are forced to use. Magic replaces technology. That
> > > wouldn't happen in Tolkien's world.
> > Look at your words. What you describe is not magic replacing
> > technology, but technology replacing magic. And that is exactly
> > what happens in Tolkien's world when the Fourth Age arrives
> > and all that belongs to the elder eras fades and is forgotten.
> 
> The wizarding folk tell Harry that electricity and Sony Gameboys 
are the
> stuff Muggles invented to make up for our lack of magic. I feel 
that the
> real situation is more complicated. At first, Muggle tinkerers 
invented
> things to accomplish results they had seen when visiting wizards --
> indoor plumbing with flush toilets, for example. But at some point,
> Muggle inventions got ahead of wizarding magic, and the situation
> changed to wizarding folk trying to invent magic things to 
accomplish
> results that they see when visiting Muggles. For example, it is 
obvious
> from its NAME that the Wizarding Wireless Network was invented to
> imitate Muggle wireless -- they wouldn't be inspired to call a wave 
on
> in the air, a song on the wind, "wire less" since they hadn't had an
> earlier version WITH wires (i.e. the telegraph). I speculate that 
the
> transition occurred during the Gaslight Era -- gas lights were 
invented
> to imitate wizarding automatic candles and railway trains were 
invented
> to imitate wizarding self-propelled carriages. But electric light, 
an
> improvement over wizarding automatic candles (except when there are
> rolling blackouts), was an original Muggle invention.
> 
I've noticed that when wizards adopt/adapt "Muggle" items, they do so 
*once* and never seem to update or improve them, or even adopt Muggle 
improvements to these items; the Hogwarts Express is still a steam 
carriage, flying brooms use no metal or plastic in their 
construction, wizards' radios all seem to be 1930s-style wood jobs, 
etc.
  It'll be interesting to see what Riddle and Hagrid have on under 
their robes in the CoS flashback scenes; Harry wearing long trousers 
(well, sort of) at age 11 in an English boarding school certainly 
points to the policy of Hogwarts' students wearing Muggle-style 
school uniform under their robes having been adopted sometime after 
1970 or so; had they started doing this when shorts and kneesocks 
were the norm, they'd have developed a Knee-Warming Charm and left it 
at that.
   
> >To the tune of: A Bicycle Built for Two
> > [Enter Pippin, Dinah, Amanda and others]
> 
> > Snape-y, Snape-y,
> > Give us your answer do.
> > We're half crazy,
> > All for the love of you.
> > We know that you would disparage
> > A wizard-Muggle marriage,
> > But come, we entreat,
> > To the Prefect's bath suite,
> > And we'll give you a good shampoo!
  
He would certainly benefit from it! What does he use for hair gel-
used motor oil?







From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 15:06:59 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 07:06:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Snape & Hello
In-Reply-To: <98ft7l+jmcj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010311150659.15201.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14097

Hello, I am a newcomer and have spent my first week just lurking and
reading.  I'm afraid I'm not as devoted a Potterphile as many of you
appear to be but FWIW, this is what I think about Snape:

I too like Snape - the character.  I think he's a wonderful creation.

What strikes me most about Snape is how childlike he is.  He hates
Harry like another child would: wholly, completely and with no
attempt to hide it.  I don't think it has anything to do with having
a crush on Harry's mother: that's too mature an emotion for him, even
in the adolescent-crush sense.  

I think Sarah is bang on:

> I personally like to think Snape has a special 
> relationship with Dumbledore (not a slash) and he feels threatened
> by Harry's closeness to the Headmaster. 

A nasty little boy who spent his time spying on James Potter and gang
to see if they were breaking rules is a little boy who wants adult
approval and has a very warped idea of how to get it.  (Might be why
he signed up with Voldemort in the first place.) Dumbledore, to his
credit, can see this and gives him the approval he still craves. 
Someone else wrote that Snape never DOES anything to harm Harry; I
think he knows that Dumbledore would never forgive that.  And notice
that Harry never fails Potions?  Harry thinks Dumbledore won't let
Snape fail him but that's just Harry's opinion.

Based on what we've read so far, I think a transformation would be
both Harry and Snape growing up.  Harry is child enough to feel that
the good guys are people that he likes.  Despite Dumbledore's
assurances, he does not trust Snape at all.  I don't think it's
illogical to assume that Harry's lack of trust will result in near
catastrophe because he will not be able to trust Snape in a crucial
situation.  He will then realize that his own biases have almost
caused a crisis and will adjust accordingly.  Snape meanwhile will
realize you can't be a jerk forever and expect people to trust you.

A maturation for both.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Mar 11 16:05:29 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (Rosemary)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:05:29 -0800
Subject: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
Message-ID: <3AABA23D.680E4170@qnet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14098

Jim wrote:
Does Harry Potter have more in common with Randall Garrett's work or 
with the Lord of the Rings? Or with Robert Jordan's work?


Well, actually, I keep my Potter books on the same shelf with my
collection of Terry Pratchett's discworld stuff.  The covers say that's
fantasy, although as Pratchett remarks, cardboard isn't very smart. <g>

	Jim asked what I meant by typical science fiction, and mentioned some
of the masters. The trouble  is, works of genius transcend their genre.
You'd have to be a nutter to argue that the Mona Lisa is not a portrait,
but it also contains one of the most perfectly realized and influential
landscapes in the history of art. 
	The insistence that the science fiction and fantasy categories be
mutually exclusive says more about the politics of the critic  than it
does about the work. But what I expect from science fiction is the
Eureka! moment. Somewhere at or near the climax of the story, the
protagonist observes or deduces something about the nature of his world
which leads directly to the resolution of the story. When Paul Atreides
says, "I've seen the Now.", when Louis Wu realizes what Fist-Of-God
mountain has to be, when Luke Skywalker pushes away his targeting
computer...those are Eureka! moments.
	There are Eureka! moments in the background of Harry Potter, just as
there is a landscape in the background of the Mona Lisa. But in the
foreground, there is what Tolkien calls the Eucatastrophe, the "sudden
glorious turn that lifts the heart", when, by something we never
expected to happen, the day is saved. When the Stone drops into Harry's
pocket, when the sword drops out of Gryffindor's hat, when Prongs
gallops out of the darkness, when Harry's parents appear from
Voldemort's wand...those are  Eucatastrophes. They belong to the genre
Tolkien called fairy-story and we call fantasy: the genre of The Lord of
the Rings and of Harry Potter.
	
Pippin



From andrea at noembromation.com.br  Sun Mar 11 16:48:52 2001
From: andrea at noembromation.com.br (andrea at noembromation.com.br)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:48:52 -0000
Subject: Why V wanted to spare Lily (was: Portkeys - Jesse - Why V wanted...)
In-Reply-To: <98fmde+spc2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98ga9k+ht42@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14099

Amy Z wrote:
 
> I'm going to chime in a minority opinion on the 
> Why-Voldemort-Wanted-to-Kill-the-Potters/Didn't-Have-to-Kill-Lily 
> question, and suggest that perhaps he didn't have to kill James 
> either.  The text in question (from PS/SS ch17) *implies* that he 
> viewed James and Lily differently, but it's not at all a sure thing.
> 
>   "How touching..." it hissed.  "I always value bravery...Yes, boy, 
> your parents were brave....I killed your father first, and he put 
up a 
> courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died...she was 
trying 
> to protect you....Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to 
have 
> died in vain."
> 
> So, as far as we can tell from this and PoA, V showed up at the 
> Potters' house, and Lily grabbed Harry and tried to run (she never 
> even got out of the house).  V encountered James first and killed 
him, 
> then turned on Harry.  But that still leaves open the possibility 
that 
> he killed James only to get to Harry.  He just doesn't say so 
> explicitly.  In Lily's case, she was actually holding Harry in her 
> arms so the whole issue was much more pointed than with James, who 
was 
> just out in the living room or whatnot on his own.
> 
> I also don't think we can read into this scene any particular 
> reluctance on V's part to kill Lily.  She didn't need to die in 
that 
> she wasn't his primary target, but that doesn't mean he was trying 
to 
> avoid killing her.  So why didn't he just AK her without an 
argument 
> and go on to Harry?  Perhaps just because she was a powerful witch 
and 
> he didn't want to tangle with her any more than necessary.  (V, 
being 
> clueless about love, would not have known what most people would 
know 
> from the start:  that you can't ask a woman to hand over her son to 
> save her own life and expect her to do it.  You may as well just 
kill 
> her from the start and not argue with her...)

Hi, Amy!

I see your point. But it still seems to me that Voldy *went out of 
his way* NOT to kill Lily. I compare it with the Cedric situation: 
then, he killed the "spare" without a second thought. Of course, 
you'd say, Lily was a fully-grown witch, and a powerful one for all 
we know. But she was almost as vulnerable as Cedric (or even more 
vulnerable, because of her baby son).

Andrea from Brazil




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 17:09:46 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:09:46 -0000
Subject: The whole Potter death scene (was Why V wanted to spare Lily)
In-Reply-To: <98ga9k+ht42@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98gbgq+4dfe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14100

This thread made me think...when you apparate, can you bring someone 
(like a baby) with you? If so, why not disappear when Voldy or Death 
Eaters show up? Even if this doesn't work for Harry (because Lily 
couldn't take him with her) it surely would save other people?

Heather M.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., andrea at n... wrote:
> Amy Z wrote:
>  
> > I'm going to chime in a minority opinion on the 
> > Why-Voldemort-Wanted-to-Kill-the-Potters/Didn't-Have-to-Kill-Lily 
> > question, and suggest that perhaps he didn't have to kill James 
> > either.  The text in question (from PS/SS ch17) *implies* that he 
> > viewed James and Lily differently, but it's not at all a sure 
thing.
> > 
> >   "How touching..." it hissed.  "I always value bravery...Yes, 
boy, 
> > your parents were brave....I killed your father first, and he put 
> up a 
> > courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died...she was 
> trying 
> > to protect you....Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to 
> have 
> > died in vain."
> > 
> > So, as far as we can tell from this and PoA, V showed up at the 
> > Potters' house, and Lily grabbed Harry and tried to run (she 
never 
> > even got out of the house).  V encountered James first and killed 
> him, 
> > then turned on Harry.  But that still leaves open the possibility 
> that 
> > he killed James only to get to Harry.  He just doesn't say so 
> > explicitly.  In Lily's case, she was actually holding Harry in 
her 
> > arms so the whole issue was much more pointed than with James, 
who 
> was 
> > just out in the living room or whatnot on his own.
> > 
> > I also don't think we can read into this scene any particular 
> > reluctance on V's part to kill Lily.  She didn't need to die in 
> that 
> > she wasn't his primary target, but that doesn't mean he was 
trying 
> to 
> > avoid killing her.  So why didn't he just AK her without an 
> argument 
> > and go on to Harry?  Perhaps just because she was a powerful 
witch 
> and 
> > he didn't want to tangle with her any more than necessary.  (V, 
> being 
> > clueless about love, would not have known what most people would 
> know 
> > from the start:  that you can't ask a woman to hand over her son 
to 
> > save her own life and expect her to do it.  You may as well just 
> kill 
> > her from the start and not argue with her...)
> 
> Hi, Amy!
> 
> I see your point. But it still seems to me that Voldy *went out of 
> his way* NOT to kill Lily. I compare it with the Cedric situation: 
> then, he killed the "spare" without a second thought. Of course, 
> you'd say, Lily was a fully-grown witch, and a powerful one for all 
> we know. But she was almost as vulnerable as Cedric (or even more 
> vulnerable, because of her baby son).
> 
> Andrea from Brazil




From homanm at umich.edu  Sun Mar 11 18:56:11 2001
From: homanm at umich.edu (homanm at umich.edu)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:56:11 -0000
Subject: Importance of Being Ron
Message-ID: <98ghob+5mma@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14101

Hi Everyone!
Just a quick note/plug to let you know that chapter 4 of my brother's 
story has been posted at fanfiction.net.  The title is "The 
Importance of Being Ron" and his author name is Gokuh4060.  The story 
has gotten great reviews so far, and we'd love to have lots of 
readers come see the latest installment, entitled "Gred and Forge 
Strike Back."  As a side note--future chapters will be posted in a 
much more timely manner.  Both of us have been really busy, but it's 
starting to slow down again.  Anyhow, I hope you all like it!  Please 
review and tell him what you think!
Thanks,
Meg




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Mar 11 19:27:27 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:27:27 -0000
Subject: Snape & Hello
In-Reply-To: <20010311150659.15201.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <98gjiv+26bm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14102


> 
> Based on what we've read so far, I think a transformation would be
> both Harry and Snape growing up.  Harry is child enough to feel that
> the good guys are people that he likes.  Despite Dumbledore's
> assurances, he does not trust Snape at all.  I don't think it's
> illogical to assume that Harry's lack of trust will result in near
> catastrophe because he will not be able to trust Snape in a crucial
> situation.  He will then realize that his own biases have almost
> caused a crisis and will adjust accordingly.  Snape meanwhile will
> realize you can't be a jerk forever and expect people to trust you.
> 
> A maturation for both.


Hey -

That just reminded me of something: whenever Harry, Ron and Hermione 
sit around and discuss who is the latest person after Harry, Harry is 
never the one to suggest Snape (just as he never thinks Draco is 
seriously after him).  It is always Ron.

Harry to me is definitely young enough to think that Snape isn't good 
because he's such a meanie (which is true - he's a nasty person), but 
he knows that Snape just isn't all bad.  Somehow, he seems to know 
that even though Snape would love to see him expelled, Snape doesn't  
want Harry dead.  

Ah, his insightfulness just makes me love him more...  :-)

--Jenny from Ra




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Mar 11 19:08:24 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:08:24 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Re: Importance of Being Ron/Announcements list
References: <98ghob+5mma@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002401c0aa5e$a6195660$8b3670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 14103

Meg said:

> Hi Everyone!
> Just a quick note/plug to let you know that chapter 4 of my brother's
> story has been posted at fanfiction.net.  The title is "The
> Importance of Being Ron" and his author name is Gokuh4060.

Dear Meg,

Glad to hear that your brother has reached chapter four of his story!

Meg, and any other fanfic authors (or authors' relatives), please note that
announcements of fanfic chapters should be posted to our new Announcements
list and not to the main HPfGU message board.

You can find the Announcements list here: -

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

Provided they are appropriate to that list, the Moderators will approve
messages and they will be seen by everybody on the Announcements list.

For details of the type of thing that should be posted to Announcements,
please see this file: -

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPfGU-Announcements.txt

A reminder, also, that discussion of fanfiction on this list (if tied to
canon) or OT Chatter (if not tied to canon) should be prefixed FF: in the
subject heading.

These changes have been introduced to help everyone navigate through the
large number of messages on this list and we thank you for your patience and
cooperation.

Magically Yours,

Neil
Moderator Team
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (ignition on)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From bohners at pobox.com  Sun Mar 11 20:06:46 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:06:46 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer
References: <98fafe+rnuo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <09b401c0aa67$0542ef40$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14104

> How about this: Snape dies in the middle of BK. 7 to help Harry to
> escape back to Hogwarts; (thus giving Harry (and JKR) plenty of time
> to milk all possible angst out of it) Harry blame himself because if
> only he had used the killing curse on V, Snape would have been saved;
> big V attacks Hogwarts; tries to use the killing curse on either Ron
> or Hermione and this time Harry seizes the chance ...

Except by using the Avada Kedavra curse on Voldemort, Harry would be no
better than V. himself.  Using the Dark Arts (and that *is* what Avada
Kedavra is, no question of it) to defeat the enemy would be unthinkable,
both in terms of the moral framework of JKR's story and also in terms of the
legal ramifications in the wizarding world (after all, they are called the
*unforgivable* curses, and we've already been told that using them on a
human is grounds for immediate incarceration in Azkaban).  I could see
Philip Pullman telling the reader that it's OK to fight evil with evil:  but
not JKR.

I can see Harry being strongly tempted at one point to use Avada Kedavra
against V. and even knowing in his heart that he *could* do it, but in the
end deciding not to (even though it is a terribly hard decision to make) and
fighting against him with more honest means.  In the end I think that one
way or an other, V.'s own evil is going to turn against him and destroy him.
It will not be a cliched "cackling villain takes one too many steps backward
and conveniently falls off cliff" sort of thing, it will be a direct and
inevitable consequence of something V. does, rebounding on him and
destroying him.

That's the only kind of ending I can see really fitting in with the moral
framework JKR has constructed up to this point.  She's already taken pains
to point out to us in several places that love is stronger than evil and
that forgiveness and mercy are powerful things -- I can't see her suddenly
turning around in Book VI and saying, "But hey, it's OK for Harry to kill
Voldemort because V.'s a really bad guy."
--
The Marauder's Map
rebeccaj at pobox.com




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 20:33:51 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:33:51 -0000
Subject: Neville, the Quidditch Ace (was FAQs Update)
In-Reply-To: <3AAA7F9C.2713C99C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <98gnff+ilv3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14105

Penny wrote:
> Hopefully, this message will also spur those FAQ'ers who are
> lagging a bit behind to redouble their efforts.  <vbg>
 
Actually, you can add four-fifths of an asterix to Neville. I expect 
to have him up by tomorrow.

And while I'm on the topic: Jo said we're in for a surprise on the 
next Gryffindor quidditch captain. I'm rooting for Ron, but I just 
thought of a *really* surprising alternative: Let's grant that 
Neville witnessed and was traumatized by his parent's torture as a 
small child, and that this trauma explains his bad memory and 
coordination. Well, suppose Neville were to duck in for a little 
psycho-therapy over the summer holidays (I'm sure FFA clinic would 
give him decent rates ... ) and come back to school with a perfect 
memory and stunning quidditch skills?

Any takers? I'd really like to include this theory in my FAQ, but I 
need somebody to back me up! =;->

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising
inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers,
but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high."





From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar 11 20:36:30 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 14:36:30 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Cup as Portkey Question
References: <98evfk+q2k9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AABE1CD.CB3FCC18@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14106

Court6702 at aol.com wrote:

> Here is another problem about the Portkey.  This group might have
> discussed this already but as I have just joined I wouldn't know. How
> is it that the Portkey worked when in the beginning of the book Arthur
> Weasley stated that Portkeys worked at predestined times? Moody
> couldn't possibly have known the exact time in which Harry and Cedric
> were to be touching the Cup.

In a striking and rather depressing example of my lack of a life, and
also because I'm stuck upstairs so I can listen for my 4-year-old being
sick again (sigh), I riffled through the archives for you guys.

Caveat: I don't really know how to make the message search do anything
sophisiticated. So I can't give you the seminal post for most of these.

Here's the message numbers for why we (I?) thought the cup portkey
worked at a touch: 5928, 2512, 2427.

Here's the message numbers where I am putting forward the same theory
Trina (?) or somebody just did, about why go through the whole Triwizard
Tourney hoo-ha to get Harry to Voldemort: 98892 (at the end) & 9254.

I *know* I remember reading (and writing) more about these two topics,
but as I said, I'm no pro with the search feature. But perhaps you will
find these interesting.

--Amanda
wondering if she should go look up her eloquent posts justifying Snape +
Lily....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From randemort at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 20:48:44 2001
From: randemort at yahoo.com (randemort at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:48:44 -0000
Subject: A New Kind of Fanfic is Coming!
Message-ID: <98gobc+q8tv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14107

Ladies and Gentlemen,

May I have your attention please!  A new kind of fanfic is coming to 
a link near you.  Unlike any other fanfic you have  read before; this 
one is said to be written by Lord Randemort himself.  Those of you 
who know this name must also know that soon your bunny slipper 
tattoos will be glowing red hot again!  BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Coming Soon.....

Hairy Potta and the Bucket of Slime!

It will change the way you look at everything.  It's been called "one 
of the best" by several people ( too many to name)  

Siriusgeologist said: "It moved me! I had to run to the bathroom 
after I read it..."

Several other folks said: " Oh no!  Not this guy again!"

The Net Eaters will be invading cyberspace soon! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!


L.R.




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Mar 11 21:41:41 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:41:41 -0000
Subject: The Office of Dumbledore (filk)
Message-ID: <98grel+10047@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14108

The Office of Dumbledore

(To the tune of In the Cool Cool Cool of the Evening)

(The Scene: Before  the office of the Hogwarts Headmaster Albus 
Dumbledore.  Enter his two most enthusiastic disciples, RUBEUS HAGRID 
& HARRY POTTER)

BOTH:
It's cool, cool cool in the office of Albus Dumbledore 
It's full of magical treasures from the ceiling to the floor
You never know what you'll find there when you open up his door

HAGRID
Come on in for peek 
As we quietly sneak 
Past his paintings as they snore. 

HARRY (taking the HAT off a shelf)
Here is the sorting hat
It may look sorta flat
But it put each kid where he's at

SORTING HAT
I might not be made of silk 
But I know the wizard ilk
I even do my own filks

HARRY
This hat came in quite handy 
In Riddle's secret den

SORTING HAT
And I have told you lately
How great you'd do in Slytherin?

(HARRY turns the hat inside-out, and throws it back on the shelf)

BOTH
It's cool, cool cool in the office of Albus Dumbledore 
No matter how often we come here, there's more things to explore 
The only thing that it's lacking is a raven croaking
"Nevermore"

HARRY
All its gizmos so flimsy 
Are chockfull of whimsy 
To augment its d?cor 

HAGRID (approaching Fawkes)
Don't reach for a Kleenix 
If you see his Phoenix 
In smoke and ashes dissolved

HARRY
And don't be surprised, my friend 
When you see him arise again,
That's just the way they evolved

HAGRID
It's a bird of beauty 
Of color and of fire
And when he croons he can outdo
The Tabernacle Choir

BOTH
It's no day care school in the Pensieve of Albus Dumbledore 
Although they're not that expensive
Just a dollar ninety-four
The flashback effects are intensive as dire issues are explored

HARRY
You see inside his mind
As his thoughts all rewind
To show what happened long before.

BOTH 
There's many a jewel in the office of Albus Dumbledore
It's the center of the resistance against Lord Voldemort 
Whenever Hogwarts' in crisis
Or there's a problem too hardcore

HARRY
If it's a magical diary

HAGRID
A dragon too fiery

HARRY
A message from Black

HAGRID
A Dementor attack 

HARRY
A stone needs to be hid

HAGRID
Or to stone's turned a kid

HARRY
If Snape's in a snit

HAGRID
Or if Fudge throws a fit

ALL (including HAT & PHOENIX) 
Just look for Albus Dumbledore!

    - CMC





From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 11 21:50:34 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:50:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A New Kind of Fanfic is Here!
References: <98gobc+q8tv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c0aa75$4e67e0a0$f85ad63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14109


It's alive!  My precious little mutant story is starting to coalesce!  Read
it if you dare!  You just might be a character in it already.  No one is
safe from the Net Eaters!  Feel the bunny slipper tattoo on your arm start
to glow!  BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

L.R.

The link is below:

http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=226715

----- Original Message -----
From: <randemort at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2001 3:48 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A New Kind of Fanfic is Coming!


> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
> May I have your attention please!  A new kind of fanfic is coming to
> a link near you.  Unlike any other fanfic you have  read before; this
> one is said to be written by Lord Randemort himself.  Those of you
> who know this name must also know that soon your bunny slipper
> tattoos will be glowing red hot again!  BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
>
> Coming Soon.....
>
> Hairy Potta and the Bucket of Slime!
>
> It will change the way you look at everything.  It's been called "one
> of the best" by several people ( too many to name)
>
> Siriusgeologist said: "It moved me! I had to run to the bathroom
> after I read it..."
>
> Several other folks said: " Oh no!  Not this guy again!"
>
> The Net Eaters will be invading cyberspace soon! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
>
>
> L.R.
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Mar 11 21:55:30 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:55:30 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Re:  A New Kind of Fanfic is Here!
References: <98gobc+q8tv@eGroups.com> <000b01c0aa75$4e67e0a0$f85ad63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <002401c0aa76$131b6840$173670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 14110

Lord Randemort screeched:

<<It's alive!  My precious little mutant story is starting to coalesce!
Read it if you dare!  You just might be a character in it already.  No one
is safe from the Net Eaters!  Feel the bunny slipper tattoo on your arm
start to glow!  BWAHAHAHAHAHA!>>

****

Randemort's faithful servant, Slugbutt, pushed the Shady Lord's armchair
closer the crackling fire and shuddered at the horrible, half-human
apparation that was snuggled there amongst the cushions.

"My Lord, have you not read the Runes?" he said, stonily.  This one here
says you will conquer all in your path with your notably diabolical ways.
This next one means you should beware of cutting what's left of your face in
a horrible shaving accident.  This last one declares that you must
henceforth post all fanfic announcements in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements ."

"What does it all mean, My Lord?"

"Shut up, Slugbutt, you fool, and pass me my milk!!!"

The Hairnetiquette Squad
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm






From klaatu at primenet.com  Sun Mar 11 22:48:16 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:48:16 -0700
Subject: Order of the Phoenix
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEHFDDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14112

I was just trolling around on Amazon.com -- they are taking pre-orders for
HP Book 5, and it is the #1 Bestseller (even though it hasn't even been
fully written yet, LOL!)  On the blurb page, it lists the book as 10,000
pages long.  HAAA!  I wish....

I know JKR said that Book 7 was going to be as big as the Encyclopedia
Britannica...

{{{sigh}}} we can only hope.


SML
======================================================
When I Become an Evil Overlord:
#218. I will not pick up a glowing ancient artifact
and shout "Its power is now mine!!!" Instead I will
grab some tongs, transfer it to a hazardous materials
container, and transport it back to my lab for
study.======================================================




From ben.leigh at cwcom.net  Sun Mar 11 22:48:54 2001
From: ben.leigh at cwcom.net (Ben Leigh)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:48:54 -0000
Subject: J.K Rowling appears on Blue Peter!!!
References: <984331647.651.82275.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c0aa7d$7b449520$0200a8c0@jonnyold>

No: HPFGUIDX 14113

Hello everyone!

Guess what? J.K Rowling will be appearing on a Children's tv programme to
answer viewers questions. I'll post a report on Tuesday since the programme
is beinf shown on Monday.

Ben




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Mar 11 23:09:56 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 11 Mar 2001 15:09:56 -0800
Subject: Chapter 34 Summary
Message-ID: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14114

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010311/94863877/attachment.ksh>

From john at walton.to  Sun Mar 11 23:23:37 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:23:37 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 34 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <B6D1B979.DD46%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14115

voicelady at mymailstation.com wrote:

> 1. Harry has beaten Voldemort on several occasions by now.  Why then did
> Voldemort untie him and give him back his wand?  Is he on drugs or just
> stupid?

No, he's Evil Overlord CutOut Villain (tm). This question refers to the
reasons why I don't feel that V is a very competent nemesis for Harry --
he's just too 2-D.

> 2. Were the apparitions emerging from Voldie?s wand ghosts?  If not, what were
> they and why were they able to speak to Harry?

I think they were some sort of uber-ghosts, or perhaps reflections of
ghosts. I'm sure there's some great JKR Explanation for all this...

> 3. We know that the Avada Kedavra curse is associated with green light.  But
> what was the symbolism, if any, of the red light streaming from Harry?s wand?

Hmm...Phoenix Feather Core, perhaps?

> 4. Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a mistake, Jo had
> worked with it and come up with a reason for James? emerging first?

Yes, definitely. My theory was that James had been tortured after Lily died.

> 5. Do you think we?ll see Cedric?s ghost at Hogwart?s now?

Probably -- perhaps he'll even help out the Scooby Gang a time or two.

--John

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///

John "Such a Witch!" Walton                 john at walton.to

Remember: socks then shoes.

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar 12 00:09:09 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:09:09 -0000
Subject: Chapter 34 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <98h435+nirv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14116

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., voicelady at m... wrote:
>
> 
> Chapater Thirty-Four, PRIOR INCANTATEM

Good Summary, Jeralyn!
>
> Questions
> 
> 1.	Harry has beaten Voldemort on several occasions by now.  Why then did Voldemort untie him and give him back his wand?  Is he on drugs or just stupid?
	Maybe all the transformations he's been through have left his mind 
as deformed as his body. But he's been brooding on his revenge against 
Harry for 13 years, and he doesn't want it to be over too quickly. 
Voldie likes to draw things out, as he did in the Chamber of Secrets.

> 
> 2.	Were the apparitions emerging from Voldie's wand ghosts?  If not, what were they and why were they able to speak to Harry?
>
	The narrative calls them echoes. They are not ghosts, they are 
dark and smokey, ghosts are pearly white and transparent. I think they 
are images that reflect the personality of the victim in the same way 
that the images in wizard photos do, but like the images in the 
Hogwarts portraits, they are able to speak.


> 3.	We know that the Avada Kedavra curse is associated with green light.  But what was the symbolism, if any, of the red light streaming from Harry's wand?
	Red is the complementary color to green (opposite on the color 
wheel) 
> 
> 4.	Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a mistake, Jo had worked with it and come up with a reason for James' emerging first?
	I agree that Lily coming last would have been more dramatically 
effective, but presumably JKR has her reasons.

> 
> 5.	Do you think we'll see Cedric's ghost at Hogwart's now?
	 I think Mrs. Diggory's comment, "...he died just when he'd won 
the tournament. He must have been happy." is significant. Cedric's body 
has been returned and he didn't suffer, so I don't think he'll become a 
ghost. 
Pippin





From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar 12 00:49:42 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:49:42 -0000
Subject: Chapter 34 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <98h6f6+t6lc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14117

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., voicelady at m... wrote:
> 
> 1.	Harry has beaten Voldemort on several occasions by now.  Why
> then did Voldemort untie him and give him back his wand?  Is he on
> drugs or just stupid?

Answers which were recently suggested in the group include: the spell 
for getting his body back requires that the first thing he do with his 
new body is to engage in a fair combat; he needs to impress his Death 
Eaters because they doubt his power now that he was defeated once by a 
baby and again by a first-year student; he is insanely in love with 
theatricality.

> 2.	Were the apparitions emerging from Voldie's wand ghosts?
> If not, what were they and why were they able to speak to Harry?

They were the images of the spells that had been cast. God (JKR) only 
knows why they, mere images, were able to speak and act. Maybe Harry 
hallucinated it. JKR has said that James and Lily are not ghosts.

> 3.	We know that the Avada Kedavra curse is associated with green
> light.  But what was the symbolism, if any, of the red light
> streaming from Harry's wand?

The way that Harry's true wand announced itself in Ollivander's shop 
was by shooting out red stars. I gather that the color red is 
associated with Harry's magic, which might be related to red being 
the Gryffindor color, which JKR probably did not intend as Communist 
propaganda. 

> 4.	Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a
> mistake, Jo had worked with it and come up with a reason for James
> emerging first?

Oh, god, yes. Should I repeat my previous list of some of the 
reasons that have been suggested on this egroup: 1) Harry's own 
magic and his emotions at that moment were so strong that his magic 
overrode the normal PI effect and brought Jamse out first because 
James were the one he was thinking of. 2) The person identified as 
James was really Harry and represented the unsuccessful Death Curse 
that Voldemort cast on baby Harry (the real James would have come out 
after Lily) -- Harry had already been mistaken for James in the stag 
Patronus scene in PoA. 3) Voldemort lied or was in error about having 
killed James first -- the man whose voice Harry heard telling Lily to 
take Harry and run was really one of his grandfathers (probably 
the Potter grandfather, with that strong family resemblance that 
lets Harry be mistaken for James, and with magic). Grandpa was killed 
(and would have appeared after Lily) while Lily fled. Voldemort 
caught up with Lily and had that conversation remembered by Harry. 
Lily, instead of trying to save her own life, used her last moments 
to send Harry to (hoped) safety with James (and, says I, to leave an 
image of herself in Harry's mind, to guard and guide and comfort 
him). Voldemort caught up with James and threw one Death Curse at 
both of them and it both killed James, spared Harry, and rebounded on 
Voldemort. That would explain not only why James appeared before 
Lily, but why no spell echo appeared for a Death Curse on Harry -- it 
was one echo for both.
 
> 5.	Do you think we'll see Cedric's ghost at Hogwart's now?

No. JKR said that happy people don't become ghosts. Apparently 
using an Aristotlean definition of happiness, which does not mean 
swimming in pleasure and the absence of pain, but rather the 
satisfaction of knowing that one has done one's duty, been good 
rather than evil, done one's best, etc.  Besides, she said she must 
teach her child readers the lessons that death is permanent and evil 
is seriously real, and bringing Cedric back as a ghost would lessen 
the feeling of permanence of his death. 






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Mar 12 02:43:57 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:43:57 -0000
Subject: Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEHFDDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <98hd5d+uras@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14118

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:

> I know JKR said that Book 7 was going to be as big as the 
Encyclopedia
> Britannica...
> 
> {{{sigh}}} we can only hope.
> 

Maybe it will like that book Ron alludes to in CoS: "Some old witch 
in Bath had a book that you could never stop reading! You just had to 
wander around with your nose in it,trying to do everything one-
handed."

Of course, that's what most of us do with the first four books 
already!

  - CMC  





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Mar 12 03:27:36 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 03:27:36 -0000
Subject: Albus Dumbledore (character sketch)
Message-ID: <98hfnb+q5m1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14119

ALBUS DUMBLEDORE 

DEFINITION (Float like a cockchafer, sting like a bumblebee)

Always use the proper name for things.
              - Dumbledore, HP/SS, Chap. 

Albus  ?a ?um      (1) white, dead white, often in proverbial 
phrases; Albus an ater sit nescio, I know nothing about him 
(Horace);  (2) pale: albus ora pallor inficit (Horace);  (3) bright: 
admissio Lucifer albus equo (Ovid)
	
	- Cassell's Latin Dictionary

Dum-ble-dore  (n) 1. A cockchafer [Brit. Dial.] 2. the bumblebee

Cock-cha-fer (n) The May Bug or Dorbeetle, Melolontha Vulgaris it is 
a large European beetle whose grubs live in the soil for three years 
feeding on the roots of plants. 

     - Webster's Dictionary (1952)

BIOGRAPHY

"Considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Dumbledore 
is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald 
in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and 
his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel. Professor 
Dumbledore enjoys chamber music and tenpin bowling."  (HP/SS, Chap. 6)

We also know, via Tom Riddle's diary flashback that Dumbledore was 
the Transfiguration Professor at Hogwarts in the early 1940s.  And 
that shortly after the collapse of Voldemort, he testified in and 
attended the Death-Eater trials. He may or may not have a brother 
named Aberforth. But ? in contrast to the extensive background 
material we have regarding his arch-rival Voldemort, virtually all we 
know of Dumbledore's pre-1980 existence is on the back of Ron's 
trading card. 

HIS INITIAL APPEARANCE

"He was tall, thin, and very old, judging by the silver of his hair 
and beard, which were both long enough to tuck into his belt. He was 
wearing long robes, a purple cloak that swept the ground, and high-
heeled, buckled boots. His blue eyes were light, bright, and 
sparkling behind half-moon spectacles and his nose was very long and 
crooked, as though it had been
broken at least twice. This man's name was Albus Dumbledore." (HP/SS, 
Chapter 1)

TAKE ONE

We shall attempt to display the infinite riches of Albus Dumbledore 
within the little room of HP/SS Chapter One.  i.e., it will be our 
thesis that the most significant strands of Dumbledore's character 
are adumbrated in Chapter One Book One of the JKR Chronicles



..


THE MASTER OF CEREMONIES

"Sorry to disappoint you and all that, but the greatest wizard in the 
world is Albus Dumbledore"
                              - Harry Potter, CoS, Chap. 17.

The JKR narrative begins, of course, firmly ensconced in the world of 
the Muggles (our world). And November 1, 1980 is a day when the 
Muggle world is compelled to take some notice of the parallel magical 
world. 

Albus Dumbledore is the first denizen of JKR's alternative world 
specifically identified by name. We first meet him on Privet Drive, 
Ground Zero of the anti-magical universe, in which Muggledom and all 
its prosaic values reign supreme. "Albus Dumbledore didn't seem to 
realize that he had just arrived in a street where everything from 
his name to his boots was unwelcome."  Our narrator is (not for the 
last time) being a tad disingenuous here. McGonagall in the same 
environment retreats into the camouflage of an Animagi; Dumbledore on 
the other hand, perfectly aware of the inhospitable world he is 
entering, arrives in his own person, while seeming as relaxed and 
comfortable as he might in the confines of his own circular office. 

Dumbledore in this chapter remains ? as usual - emotionally equitable 
in the face of the extraordinary events of the day ("If you can meet 
with triumph and disaster/And treat these two imposters just the 
same"). He does not celebrate the downfall of Voldemort 
improvidently, in the manner of Dedalus Dingle, nor does he mourn the 
loss of the Potters noisily, as does Hagrid. (He does, to his credit, 
give a "great sniff," as he reaches for his watch, in reaction to the 
Potters' demise). Dumbledore is in command of himself, and can 
thereby take command of the situation, by virtue of the fact that 
already knows what he has to do. He tells Hagrid that he's received 
at least one owl a week criticizing his performance since becoming 
Headmaster, but does not let disturb him (GoF, Ch. 24)

One of Dumbledore's job responsibilities as Hogwarts' headmaster is 
to preside as Master of Ceremonies over all of its formal occasions, 
a task he dispatches with energy and enthusiasm. Additionally, we 
again and again see Dumbledore acting as the MC behind the scenes as 
well. He successfully disposes of the stone in HP/SS, and coolly 
turns aside Lucius Malfoy's attempt to oust him from Hogwarts in CoS. 
This does not mean that Dumbledore's leadership can convert those who 
doubt him " I have no power to make other men see the truth, or to 
overrule the Minister of Magic...."  he tells Harry and Hermione in 
PoA, Chap. 21. We know of course that such powers exist, but as 
McGonagall says, Dumbledore is too noble to use them.  Dumbledore 
wants those who follow him to do so out of faith in him and what he 
stands for.   Harry shows that faith in the Chamber of Secrets, and 
both Hermione and Harry show it with the Time-Turner.  But faith is 
not sufficient: Harry and Hermione must also bring their own skill 
and courage.  Dumbledore again assumes MC duties at the end of GoF, 
when he rallies the anti-Voldemort forces for a renewed campaign over 
the refusal of Cornelius Fudge and the ministry to deal with the 
emerging crisis

..  

NITWIT! BLUBBER! ODDMENT! TWEAK!

"I did hear an excellent one over the summer about a troll, a hag, 
and a leprechaun who all go into a bar

"
                                     - Dumbledore, GoF, Chap. 12

One of Dumbledore's most salient characteristics is his rather 
perverse sense of whimsy.  Even on so solemn an occasion as the 
Potters' demise and Voldemort's disappearance,  he tries to distract  
McGonagall's serious question about the fate of Voldemort  by 
offering her a lemon drop, ("a Muggle treat I'm rather fond of"); 
and, in discussing Harry Potter's scar, makes the preposterous boast 
of having a scar of his own shaped like a perfect map of the London 
Underground above his left knee.

He tells Harry that he sees himself in Erised with an old pair of 
socks- certainly an evasion  ( "It was only when he was back in bed 
that it struck Harry that Dumbledore might not have been quite 
truthful") , or his claim to have discovered  "a beautifully 
proportioned room  I have never seen before, containing a really 
rather magnificent collection of chamber pots (GoF, Ch. 22 -  
a "chamber of secrets, " indeed!).  In GoF, Ch. 24, he reassures a 
distraught Hagrid with a outlandish story about a family member "My 
own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate 
charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? 
No he did not! He held his head high. Of course, I'm not entirely 
sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery
."  And there are 
all those outlandish jokes that he uses to greet new Hogwarts 
arrivals "Welcome," he said. "Welcome to a new year at Hogwarts! 
Before we begin our banquet, I would like to say a few words. And 
here they are: Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!  This is the aspect 
of Dumbledore that leads Percy to call him "a bit mad", Rita Skeeter 
to call him "an obsolete dingbat," or Dobby to call him a "barmy old 
codger," (with Dumbledore's permission of course).  

Here, we see a major difference between Dumbledore and Voldemort:  
The sarcastic and scathing Voldemort is like the poet in Baudelaire's 
Fleur de Mal, "Condemned to eternal laughter/And who can never smile 
again."   Dumbledore can both laugh (often at his own expense) and 
smile. 

THE SECRET HOLDER

"And I don't suppose you're going to tell me why you're here, of all 
places?"
                                                                      
         - Minerva McGonagall.(HP/SS, Chap.1)

The key to Dumbledore's character may lie in his declaration 
that "The truth is a beautiful and terrible thing, and therefore be 
treated with great caution" (PS/SS Ch. 17).  This sounds an awful lot 
like a less corrosive paraphrase of Mark Twain's acid declaration 
that "Truth is a rare and precious thing ? and, like all rare and 
precious things, we should use it as sparingly as possible."  If ever 
there was a man who played his cards close to his chest, that man is 
Albus Dumbledore. The stereotype of Dumbledore as a benign kindly 
(even somewhat bumbling) "Father Christmas" figure does not quite 
jibe with his rather surreptitious approach toward sharing 
information. 

In HP/SS, Chap. 1, Dumbledore is evasive when McGonagall asks why 
Harry must be left with the conspicuously unmagical Dursleys. "It's 
the best place for him," said Dumbledore firmly. "His aunt and uncle 
will be able to explain everything to him when he's older. I've 
written them a letter." The idea that arch-Muggles Vernon and 
Petunia, armed with Dumbledore's missive, would cheerfully provide 
Harry with a full explanation of his magical origins when the time 
arrived is rather risible, and it seems most unlikely that Dumbledore 
was unaware of this. Dumbledore does offer the very sensible 
objection that Harry is likely to be spoiled by the wizard world's 
adulation if it arrives at too early an age, but even this is 
disingenuous. ?Surely another couple (whether magical or Muggle) 
would have provided Harry with a warm and loving home which could 
have preserved,  via the mechanism of The Secret Holder, Harry in a 
comfortable obscurity until he was ready to face the world and the 
truth about his parents.
.    
Not until Book Four do we learn, from no less reliable a figure than 
Voldemort, that Harry enjoys a special protection when he is under 
the roof with blood relatives. Sounds like a good sound magical 
rationale for keeping Harry on Privet Drive to me ? but why did 
Dumbledore feel the need to conceal this?  It might have been 
Dumbledore realized that Harry needed to be raised in a abusive and 
hostile environment, in order to learn a humility that might 
counterbalance his exceptional magical skills, which in turn might 
have fostered a Slytherin-like pride.  As necessary as this may have 
been for the shaping of Harry's character, it does sound rather cold-
blooded, calculating and unpalatable, and the rationale for it would 
hardly have been accepted as a valid by McGonagall or Hagrid.  

When Harry asks "why would [Voldemort] want to kill me in the first 
place?", Dumbledore sighs, "Alas, the first thing you ask me, I 
cannot tell you. Not today. Not now. You will know, one day... put it 
from your mind for now, Harry. When you are older... I know you hate 
to hear this... when you are ready, you will know."  Dumbledore also 
does not share with Harry that Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle - 
or what is going on between him and Severus Snape that makes 
Dumbledore think him so trustworthy?

And what is that now infamous triumphant look (GoF, Ch. 36) all 
about? I won't rehash here all the immense speculation ? but one 
thing we know for certain: it sure is a secret.  

SAYING VOLDEMORT'S NAME

"It all gets so confusing if we keep saying 'You-Know-Who
            -Dumbledore, HP/SS, Chap. 1 

We learn in the first chapter from McGonagall . "Everyone knows 
you're the only one You-Know- oh, all right, Voldemort, was 
frightened of."  Dumbledore modestly brushes aside the remark without 
denying it.   Over the course of JKR's narrative, we learn that 
Dumbledore spear-headed the initial anti-Voldemort campaign (maybe we 
can it Vold War One, to differentiate from Vold War Two which is sure 
to dominate Books Five-Seven)

Although it is apparent that Hogwarts was the center of the anti-
Voldemort campaign, we are not so far we entirely clear on just why 
Voldemort so fears Dumbledore; nor do we know the specifics of how 
Dumbledore fought against Voldemort.  Still, in the preliminary 
skirmishes of Vold War II, we see Dumbledore as once again the 
guiding force.  It is Dumbledore who thwarts Voldemort/Quirell at the 
end of Book One, and who (apparently) sends Fawkes and the Sorting 
Hat to Harry in the Chamber of Secrets (or at the least, Harry's 
loyalty to Dumbledore). He makes it plain to Hermione that the time-
turner can be used to save Buckbeak and Black (something she would 
probably not have though of on her own). He rallies the anti-
Voldemort forces to forge an alliance at the end of GoF, and suggests 
such controversial steps as reconciling with the Giants, and casting 
the Dementors out of Azkaban, causing a perhaps irreconcilable split 
with Fudge.  

While Dumbledore usually presents a kindly, beneficent face to the 
world, we occasionally glimpse his more incandescent side as well. 
Harry notes his eyes flashing when he confronts Lucius Malfoy (CoS, 
Ch. 14).  When Dumbledore bursts in upon the disguised Barty Crouch 
(GoF, Chap 35), Harry sees the "cold fury" in his face, and realizes 
for the first time why Voldemort was frightened of him alone among 
wizards.  This "indefinable sense of power" continues to radiate from 
him in his confrontation with the willfully blinded Cornelius Fudge 
(Ch. 36) 


TWELVE HANDS, NO NUMBERS

One thing was certain: of all the teachers' offices Harry had visited 
so far this year, Dumbledore's was by far the most interesting.
                                                                      
           - CoS, Chapter 12

Every Hogwarts Prof. worth hizerer salt has marvels and wondrous 
gizmos galore, and Dumbledore is no exception. Some of the most 
wondrous contraptions of the JKR chronicles belong to him (or at 
least are housed in his office).  In the initial chapter, one of the 
first actions he performs is to use his Put-Outer to extinguish the 
Muggle streetlamps; several moments later, he takes out a  " very odd 
watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead, little planets 
were moving around the edge."  It somehow let Dumbledore know that 
Hagrid was late. 

Harry learns during each visit that there is a lot of cool stuff in 
his office: "It was a large and beautiful circular room, full of 
funny little noises. A number of curious silver instruments stood on 
spindlelegged tables, whirring and emitting little puffs of smoke" 
(CoS, Ch. 12) . The 1000-year-old Sorting Hat sits on one of his 
shelves, and the Phoenix Fawkes perches nearby. These knicknacks do 
not seem to come with the office, either: when Harry sees 
Dumbledore's predecessor Dippet  in Tom Riddle' diary, he sees that 
there is "no Fawkes the phoenix - no whirring silver contraptions". 
In Book Four, Ch.30,  during a return visit, Harry encounters the 
extraordinary Pensieve, which allows him to witness first-hand  the 
judicial system of the post-Voldemort wizard world in action. (as 
William Gaddis wrote in his legal satire A Frolic of His 
Own, "Justice is what you get in the next world, what you get in this 
world is the law.")  Unlike the Riddle diary, we can presume that the 
Pensieve of Dumbledore's memories provided an accurate reconstruction 
of events (or can we?)

EOE

Albus Dumbledore
has never been afraid to make controversial staff 
appointments.
		 -Rita Skeeter, GoF Chap 24

The arrival of the grief-stricken Hagrid in HP/SS bearing  the infant 
Harry - at once majestic, pathetic, and preposterous ? reminds us of  
another facet of Dumbledore, alluded to much later by Rita Skeeter. 
We all know Hagrid to be a wonderful and lovable soul with a heart 
even more gigantic than his body, but


.well, competence is not 
exactly his strong suit, and he would not be most people's first 
choice to carry out an important and potentially dangerous mission. 
McGonagall questions whether Hagrid is really the best person to 
bring the infant Harry to them

"You think it -- wise -- to trust Hagrid with something as important 
as this?"

I would trust Hagrid with my life," said Dumbledore.

"I'm not saying his heart isn't in the right place," said Professor 
McGonagall grudgingly, "but you can't pretend he's not careless. He 
does tend to

"   Well, no doubt he does tend to, and perhaps Hagrid 
was not the best choice, but after all he did accomplish his mission.

Dumbledore exercises an exceptional degree of tolerance in the highly 
prejudicial world of the Wizards.  No doubt a more exacting 
Headmaster would not have let Hagrid near Hogwarts.  For not only was 
Hagrid expelled as a student for some very suspicious activities, but 
as we later learn, he is also half-giant (a race not held in high 
repute). Dumbledore not only allows Hagrid to remain  as  
Groundskeeper, but later allows him to take on a teaching position, 
(something in which he proves to be endearingly and predictably  
inept).  How many other places of learning today would be similarly 
flexible with their hiring?

Dumbledore also willingly "mainstreams" the young werewolf Lupin into 
Hogwarts first as a student (even creating the elaborate ruse of "the 
shrieking shack") and later as a faculty member. He is willing to put 
house elves Dobby and Winky on the payroll when he could have easily 
refused their admission.  And of course nothing makes Dumbledore more 
hated and despised around the Slytherin dorm and the Malfoy estate 
than his Muggle and Mudblood-loving tendencies. In the words of Draco 
Malfoy, "Father's always said old Dumbledore's the worst thing that's 
ever happened to this place. He loves Muggle-borns. A
decent headmaster would never've let slime like that Creevey in." 
(CoS, Ch. 13)

Dumbledore's tolerance extends to individuals as well: his staff 
consists of out and out frauds such as Lockhart, sweet incompetents 
like Hagrid, sinister incompetents like Quirrell, as well as grumps 
and petty tyrants like Snape and Filch. He seems as amused as any 
student over the antics of Fred and George. Dumbledore seems to be 
willing to give everyone a chance, both groups and individuals. 
Hagrid says of Dumbledore that he "
trusts people, he does. Gives `em 
second chances."  (GoF, Ch. 24) Everyone he hires at Hogwarts gains 
that chance for a fresh start; some are able to use that opportunity 
more or less successfully (Hagrid, Snape, Lupin), while others fail 
(Lockhart, Quirrell).  But as CS Lewis' Screwtape said of "The 
Enemy,"  "He wants them to learn to walk and therefore must take away 
His hand; and if only the will to walk is really there, He is pleased 
even with their stumbles"

WILD ABOUT HARRY 

Good luck with the third task
            - Dumbledore, GoF, Chap. 30 

At least from the day that he gently deposits Harry at the Dursley's 
doorstep (but probably before that), Dumbledore has maintained an 
intense interest in Harry.  One of Book Five's many revelations will 
no doubt include Arabella Figg: it would be my guess that she was 
specifically placed near Privet Drive by Dumbledore to keep tabs on 
Harry.  A very interesting commentary on Dumbledore's refusal to 
share information, if Hagrid showed up at the Dursley's expecting a 
fully-informed Harry.  And of course Hagrid himself no doubt serves 
Dumbledore as a conduit of information regarding Harry. And there are 
many others who keep Dumbledore informed. We learn in GoF from Mr. 
Ollivander that he notified Dumbledore as soon as Harry purchased his 
wand. We learn that Sirius Black is in regular correspondence with 
Dumbledore, and my guess is that Buckbeak is probably not their No. 1 
topic of conversation. 

Dumbledore first meets Harry one-on-one at the Mirror of Erised 
(HP/SS, Ch. 11). Harry is somewhat slow to fully trust Dumbledore, 
and even in CoS (Ch. 12), he hesitates to tell Dumbledore about the 
disembodied voices he hears. But by the final chapter of CoS, when he 
is able to share his fears about the Sorting Hat and Slytherin, 
Dumbledore's response is a genuine epiphany for him. He learns that 
he has the ability to make meaningful moral choices, and it was that 
decision alone which placed him in Gryffindor. No wonder Harry felt 
stunned! At the end of PoA, when Harry despairs that his mistakes 
allowed Wormtail to return to Voldemort, Dumbledore (no doubt in the 
belief that Voldemort was returning one way or the other no matter 
what) reassures him by connecting the event to the larger world  of 
magic "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a 
deputy who is in your debt.... When one wizard saves another wizard's 
life, it creates a certain bond between them... and I'm much mistaken 
if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter." By 
confiding his fears in Dumbledore  - the appearance of Prongs as his 
Patronus, the pain from his scar, etc., Dumbledore can usually 
provide an answer, or point toward a resolution.

                      BARTLETT'S FAMILIAR

And it is always Dumbledore who  - at the end of the story ? provides 
Harry with the Meaning Of It All, in  a concise and elegant epigram. 
This more sententious side of Dumbledore can (and has been) easily 
parodied. Yet we can scarcely deny the aptness or the wisdom of these 
axioms

"As much money and life as you could want - the two things most human 
beings would choose above all.  The trouble is that humans do have a 
knack for choosing precisely those things that are worst for them."  
(HP/SS, Ch. 17)
 
"There are all kinds of courage.  It takes a great deal of bravery to 
stand up to our enemies - but it takes just as much to stand up to 
our friends."  (HP/SS, Ch. 17)
  
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our 
abilities."
 (CoS, Ch 18)  
 
"You think the dead we love ever truly leave us?  You think that we 
don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble?  
Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly 
when you are in need of him." (PoA, Ch 22)

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are 
divided."."Differences of habit and language are nothing if  our aims 
are identical and our hearts are open."
 (GoF, Ch 37)
 
OTOH, we do have to take some of his adages  with a grain of 
salt "Curiosity is not a sin, but we should exercise caution with our 
curiosity."  (GoF Ch 30) is not especially convincing from a man who 
gives away Invisibility Cloaks. 

WHAT DID DUMBLEDORE KNOW AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT?

Dumbledore already knows you're here, Harry - doesn't miss a trick, 
that man.
           - Arthur Weasley, CoS, Ch. 4

Yes, yes, it's all very sad, but get a grip on yourself
           - Dumbledore, HP/SS, Ch. 1

Dumbledore is seen by some readers of the JKR novels as a fatigued 
over-the-hill wizard well past his prime. Sister Mary Lunatic ably 
sums up this view in an HP4GU essay "Can WE Believe in Dumbledore?," 
posted  on February 3 "I find Dumbledore very fallible and sometimes 
frighteningly ineffective  He provides Harry and the others with many 
opportunities to make fatal mistakes, for example: giving an 11-year-
old boy an invisibility cloak, allowing detentions to be spent in the 
Forbidden Forest at midnight, letting Harry and Hermione play with 
time in an effort to rescue Buckbeak and Sirius, failing to prevent 
the Dementors from entering Hogwarts on two occasions (once when they 
came to get Sirius, and again when they came to get Barty Crouch 
Jr.) . He also fails to spot the impostor Moody during an entire 
school year, and fails to prevent Voldemort from kidnapping Harry 
right out from under his nose at the end of Goblet of Fire.  Again, a 
VERY fallible Dumbledore. Perhaps he has been lulled into 
carelessness by the preceding decade of peace.   If Dumbledore  is 
such a great wizard, why didn't he know what was happening?"

 But Sister Mary also briefly considers a second possibility. "Or 
worse, DID he  know, and left Harry to deal with it because it was 
good training?"  Except for the leaving out the "or worse," this is 
the interpretation of Dumbledore that I favor.  I believe that 
Dumbledore always expected to face Voldemort again.  Dumbledore, for 
reasons which will no doubt be fully explained later, believes that 
Harry is predestined to be the instrument of Voldemort's final 
destruction, and thereby restore peace and harmony to the Wizard 
world.  In order to guide him toward this destiny, Dumbledore must 
think in strategic terms.  This entails a certain necessary degree of 
cold-bloodedness of his part. If crushing Voldemort requires leaving 
Harry in an abusive Muggles home for 10 years when every sentiment 
would have demanded placing him in a supportive loving Wizard home: 
then so be it.   "Yes, yes, it's all very sad, but get a grip on 
yourself"  

His presentation of invisibility cloak to Harry is similarly intended 
to give him an extra impetus to explore his new habitat unbound by 
the restraints imposed upon other first-years. Thanks to Dumbledore, 
Harry gains permission to play Quidditch, which our ever self-
deprecating hero will nevertheless acknowledge as "the only thing I'm 
good at." Harry is, with Dumbledore's tacit or (in PoA) explicit 
approval, sent out to do battle with the Dark Forces in the climax of 
every book.   But Dumbledore does more than to simply serve as 
cheerleader. Somehow, he is magically watching over Harry even in the 
direst straits.  When he is temporarily dismissed as Headmaster via 
the machinations of Lucius Malfoy, Dumbledore says "You will find 
that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal 
to me. You will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts 
to those who ask for it. (CoS, Ch. 14). When Harry invokes the name 
of Dumbledore in the Chamber of Secrets, he is saved. "You must have 
shown me real loyalty down in the Chamber. Nothing but that could 
have called Fawkes to you." (CoS, Ch. 19).

The second theory doesn't necessarily mean that Dumbledore "knows" 
everything ? but it does suggest that he too practices "constant 
vigilance," and is prepared for every encroachment of the Dark Lord.

Questions

1. We all remember the chilling scene in GoF, when Barty Crouch Jr. 
explains to Harry how each of his actions as Moody was coldly 
calculated to advance Voldemort's agenda.  Will there someday be a 
parallel scene where Dumbledore will explain his own coldly 
calculated behind-the-scenes maneuverings to Harry? 

2. Dumbledore, Harry and Fawkes. Elderly man, young man and bird. Any 
similar trinities come to mind?

3.Will Dumbledore survive the series? Will he hang in there until 
Book Seven, or perish earlier? Will be die with harness on his back, 
like good king Macbeth, or peacefully in his bed? 

4. If Dumbledore dies, who will succeed him as Headmaster? 

5. Voldy loves nothing more than to talk about himself (see Chapters 
32-34 in GoF).   By contrast, most of what we know of Dumbledore's 
past was on the back of a trading card.  What is the significance of 
Dumbledore's consistent refusal to talk about himself?

6. How did Dumbledore defeat the Dark Wizard Grindelwald?

7. In the passage describing his physical appearance, it is said that 
Dumbledore's  nose looks to have broken twice. Did Dumbledore play 
Quidditch as a younger man? 

8. Did Dumbledore really forget to shut the door on the Pensive? Or 
did he mean for Harry to find it?  Does the flashback to the Crouch 
trial suggest that Dumbledore was considering the possibility that 
Crouch might be lurking about? 

9. "I did hear an excellent one over the summer about a troll, a hag, 
and a leprechaun who all go into a bar

"  Does anyone know how the 
rest of the story goes?

10. Dumbledore tells Harry that the one thing Voldemort cannot 
understand is love.  Does Dumbledore understand love?  How does he 
demonstrate (or fail to demonstrate) it? 

11. Does Dumbledore really have a brother Aberforth? And how does 
cast an inappropriate charm on a goat? (And please remember this a 
family-oriented chat group). 





From bohners at pobox.com  Mon Mar 12 03:45:02 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:45:02 -0500
Subject: Snape's Role in OotP
Message-ID: <0a6201c0aaa6$d37f4400$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14120

I feel so sure that what I'm about to say is at least partially correct that
I'm tempted to put a SPOILER warning on it.  However, since I have not in
fact read OotP or the subsequent books (I wish!) and cannot rightfully claim
to know *absolutely* what JKR is doing, that would be probably be premature,
if not downright presumptuous.  So, here it is, unprotected but (I think)
well-founded speculation.

It's been agreed before that Dumbledore is probably going to be removed from
the picture soon, whether by death or capture or some other, at least
semi-permanent, method of disposal.  JKR's been setting us up for this in a
variety of ways, I think, not only by mentioning that D. seems old but also
by having people like Hagrid confidently assert that everything's going to
be just fine as long as D. is around.  Ergo, by removing D., she ups the
stakes in a major way (which she's been warning us she's going to do) and
makes things very much darker for Harry & Co. (ditto).

Now, if D. is gone then McGonagall takes over as Headmaster.  Right?  Wrong.
Because if D. is removed, it will be by powerful influences on the Dark
side.  And powerful DE's like Lucius Malfoy aren't going to stand for
McGonagall being in charge either.  If she gets the chance to take over the
Headmaster's role at all, I can guarantee you it won't last long.

So who's the next Headmaster of Hogwarts?  The natural choice for the job,
of course, is Snape.  We've already been set up for this in a variety of
ways, including Draco Malfoy's baldfaced statement that Snape *ought* to be
Headmaster instead of D.  I don't believe that any of the baddies, Voldemort
included, actually knows for sure, or necessarily even suspects, that Snape
is or was ever working for D. and the good guys.  V. may suspect it on the
basis that Snape didn't show up to his little DE love-in at the end of
GoF -- but then neither did Barty Crouch.  And even the way Snape tried to
bully Quirrell in PS wouldn't have betrayed that he was really on D's side.
For all V. knows, Snape might have just wanted the stone for his own greedy
purposes, which is a perfectly fine DE thing to do if you don't realize your
old master's the one behind Turban #3.

My theory is that Dumbledore's been grooming Snape to take over after him
all along, allowing and even encouraging Snape to appear to be an unpleasant
Dark-sympathizing sort of individual so that the bad guys would leave him in
power at Hogwarts.  That way, D. can be sure that his scheme to fight
Voldemort will continue even in the event of his death, that the school
won't fall into the hands of a *real* baddie, and can also count on Harry's
being safe (if unhappy) under Snape's supervision.

All this would certainly fit in with JKR's statement that we'll be seeing a
lot of Snape in OotP, don't you think?  I suspect we're only going to have
Dumbledore around for another term or two before he's either killed, or
incapacitated, or packed off to somewhere remote.

Of course, eventually Snape is going to have to stand up and be counted as
one of the good guys -- he might be willing to appear to go along with the
DE's to a certain extent, but if they told him to do something like, say,
get rid of Harry or kill all the Muggle-born students at Hogwarts, that
would be the end of it.

I *could* see, however, a scenario in which the Muggle-born students are
kicked out of the school.  Can you imagine Hermione's reaction to finding
out she can't continue her studies?  Ouch.  Such a situation couldn't
continue indefinitely, of course, but it might happen for a few chapters at
least.
--
The Marauder's Map
rebeccaj at pobox.com




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 05:11:39 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:11:39 -0000
Subject: The whole Potter death scene
Message-ID: <98hlqb+dvc4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14121

Heather wrote:

>This thread made me think...when you apparate, can you bring someone 
>(like a baby) with you? If so, why not disappear when Voldy or Death 
>Eaters show up? Even if this doesn't work for Harry (because Lily 
>couldn't take him with her) it surely would save other people?

This reminds me of a question I've wondered about before:  why 
couldn't they kill Voldemort before he kills them?  He's not the only 
one who knows Avada Kedavra.  Or, if they want to fight purely 
defensively/not stoop to V's level, there are lots of spells to 
prevent someone from using AK (e.g. Impedimenta, Expelliarmus), even 
if there's no direct way to block it.  One simple answer is that he's 
a more powerful wizard than even James or Lily.  They might try to 
kill him, or stop him from getting to the point where he's raising his 
wand and opening his mouth, but he is faster, stronger, whatever the 
magical equivalents are, and he defeats them.  Maybe something similar 
keeps them from Apparating; he can prevent them from doing it.  

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 "Before we begin our banquet, I would like 
 to say a few words.  And here they are: 
 Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!"
            --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
---------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 05:16:54 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:16:54 -0000
Subject: Chapter 34 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <98hm46+4e31@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14122

Jeralyn wrote:

> 3.      We know that the Avada Kedavra curse is associated with 
green light.  But
> what was the symbolism, if any, of the red light streaming from 
Harry's wand?

Green for Slytherin, red for Gryffindor?

Does Expelliarmus always give off a red light?  I don't have a CoS 
handy--that's probably the only place it'd say.  Or maybe in PoA when 
they knock Snape out--haven't got one of them either.

> 2.      Were the apparitions emerging from Voldie's wand ghosts?  If 
not, what were
> they and why were they able to speak to Harry?

They seem like a different phenomenon from ghosts to me.  Harry's seen 
ghosts and he doesn't note a similarity; they're repeatedly referred 
to as "echoes" (as was the other PI we've seen, the Dark Mark).  And 
why can they only last as long as the connection holds, plus a few 
seconds?  That's not ghostlike.  I'm hoping JKR will expand on the 
various kinds of unbeing, but in the meantime I'm figuring these 
figures are substantially different from the likes of Nick and Myrtle.

Therefore,

> 5.      Do you think we'll see Cedric's ghost at Hogwart's now?

I don't.  I definitely think that if he did become a ghost, it 
wouldn't have anything to do with the smoky Cedric of this scene, but 
with his untimely death.  But Cedric got to make a last request, and 
it was satisfied, so he doesn't sound like a likely candidate for a 
ghost to me--going by the traditional ideas I have about what makes a 
ghost (someone who dies with unfinished business); Jo's ideas may be 
different.

Too bad for Myrtle, though.  After all that ogling, she could have him 
to herself.

> 4.      Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a 
mistake, Jo had
> worked with it and come up with a reason for James' emerging first?

I've written about this before (can't find which message), but I'll 
say briefly:  no, I really don't.  I wish she hadn't made the mistake 
in the first place, but I don't want her to have to rework the whole 
7-part story in order to explain away something she didn't even 
intend.  I love everyone's creative theories, but they might clash 
horribly with yet-to-be-revealed facts, and only JKR knows what can 
and can't have happened in what order in Godric's Hollow.  (One day 
we'll know too...when the Complete Rowling Notebooks are published, 
edited by [an] illustrious member[s] of this list, natch.)

I do wish everyone involved had just said, in a completely candid way, 
"OOPS--sorry about that--future printings will have the corrected 
text!" instead of being sneaky.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------------------------
 "Blimey," said the other twin.  "Are you--?"
 "He *is*," said the first twin.  "Aren't you?" he added to Harry.
 "What?" said Harry.
 "*Harry Potter*," chorused the twins.
 "Oh, him," said Harry.  "I mean, yes, I am."
                                 -HP and the Philosopher's Stone
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 05:32:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:32:28 -0000
Subject: Chapter 34 Summary
In-Reply-To: <98h6f6+t6lc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98hn1c+4cc0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14123

Rita wrote:

2) The person identified as 
> James was really Harry and represented the unsuccessful Death Curse 
> that Voldemort cast on baby Harry (the real James would have come 
out 
> after Lily)

Okay, I just posted a message saying that I like the corrected wand 
order just fine, but now I've had a brainwave (or a braincramp, 
depending on your point of view) and I want to run this idea by you.  

The person identified as James was really Harry, as above.  But James 
would not have appeared after Lily, because JAMES NEVER DIED.  
Everyone right up to Dumbledore thinks he did, but one person knows 
better . . . (drum roll please) . . . Remus Lupin.  That's why the 
"strange voice" when he says, "You heard James?"--because he, and he 
alone, knows that James wasn't even there the night Voldemort showed 
up.  The voice Harry heard was his grandfather's (as he said, he'd 
never heard his dad's voice before, so he wouldn't know), but Remus 
doesn't know that anyone else was there that night, so he is wondering 
what on earth Harry did hear.

So where WAS James that fateful night, and where has he been hiding, 
and why, for the last 13 years?  He was on a romantic rendezvous with 
Remus, and his terrible guilt at having been off cheating on his wife 
the night Voldemort showed up to kill them all drove him to Argentina, 
where he changed his fingerprints and got a magical facelift.  He's 
been in a nonstop drunken stupor ever since, tormenting himself with 
shame that he is so far from the hero the wizarding world--and the son 
who never knew him--imagines he is, and refusing to reveal himself.  
Remus visits now and then to do his laundry and beg him to come back 
to England.

Amy Z

P.S.  I don't believe any of this for a moment.




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 05:41:37 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:41:37 -0000
Subject: Chapter 34 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <98hnih+91ea@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14124

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., voicelady at m... wrote:
<summ snipped>

> Questions
> 
> 1.	Harry has beaten Voldemort on several occasions by now.  Why 
then did Voldemort untie him and give him back his wand?  Is he on 
drugs or just stupid?

Normally, I'm of the Cardboard Voldemort School. You know, I'm the 
one who posted the URL of the evil overlord list. In defense of 
Voldy's competence, however, the fact that the wands were "twins" was 
unknown to him, and Priori Incantantem was a one-in-a-million chance. 
That still doesn't change the fact that it was quite a waste of time 
to bother duelling Harry, and him slipping away could have happened 
anyhow, but Voldemort had good reason to be confident of not being 
beaten by him. 

> 
> 2.	Were the apparitions emerging from Voldie's wand ghosts?  If 
not, what were they and why were they able to speak to Harry?
> 

I always wondered why they seemed to possess a kind of consciousness. 
They knew what was going on and who Harry was and all. Maybe it's 
something like the Tom Riddle Diary, which is not actually Voldemort, 
but can think and think like him. 

<snip>
> 4.	Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a 
mistake, Jo had worked with it and come up with a reason for James' 
emerging first?

Personally, no. I'd just issue an erratum notice. 

> 
> 5.	Do you think we'll see Cedric's ghost at Hogwart's now?
> 
<agreement with previous posters on Cedric not fulfilling rules>

Charmian




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 06:00:13 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:00:13 -0000
Subject: Albus Dumbledore (character sketch)
In-Reply-To: <98hfnb+q5m1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98hold+ftat@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14125

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
<Masterful,thorough, most excellent summary of Albus Dumbledore 
snipped.>




(maybe we 
> can it Vold War One, to differentiate from Vold War Two which is 
sure 
> to dominate Books Five-Seven)

I do second this nomination. :)


> 
> 1. We all remember the chilling scene in GoF, when Barty Crouch Jr. 
> explains to Harry how each of his actions as Moody was coldly 
> calculated to advance Voldemort's agenda.  Will there someday be a 
> parallel scene where Dumbledore will explain his own coldly 
> calculated behind-the-scenes maneuverings to Harry? 
> 
<snip>

Perhaps. This would be very interesting to witness, Dumbledore 
showing the more serious side of his character we see in the 
unmasking scene in GoF. 

> 
> 3.Will Dumbledore survive the series? Will he hang in there until 
> Book Seven, or perish earlier? Will be die with harness on his 
back, 
> like good king Macbeth, or peacefully in his bed? 

I don't see him as dying until book seven. He's too vital to the 
structure of the book. I do see him dying though, for various reasons 
we've discussed to death already on this group. How,
> 
> 4. If Dumbledore dies, who will succeed him as Headmaster? 
> 

I say McGonagall. She's already assistant, and is Transfiguration 
prof, like Dumbledore was in his day. 

> 5. Voldy loves nothing more than to talk about himself (see 
Chapters 
> 32-34 in GoF).   By contrast, most of what we know of Dumbledore's 
> past was on the back of a trading card.  What is the significance 
of 
> Dumbledore's consistent refusal to talk about himself?

Humility, most likely. Perhaps an awareness of the tragic aspects of 
his battles with evil, making him unlikely to boast? 

<snip>
Rest of the questions I have little idea how to answer, but most 
certainly will be thinking of them whenever book five comes out. 

Charmian





From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 12 06:04:30 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:04:30 -0600
Subject: New file uploaded to HPFGU-OTChatter  Neil in bunny slippers & hairnet jpg
Message-ID: <016901c0aaba$4ecef980$6714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14126

From: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPFGU-OTChatter
group.

  File        : /Club_Humor/Neil in bunny slippers & hairnet.jpg
  Uploaded by : nera at rconnect.com
  Description : Neil in bunny slippers & hairnet, as promised

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/

As soon as you join OTChatter, you can access this file.... it is a real pic
of Neil ... IN hairnet and bunny slippers ... not a fake url  .... ahem ...
as some people post.

Regards,
Doreen
nera at rconnect.com











From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 06:40:34 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:40:34 -0000
Subject: repost: my son, 3, and Harry - I
Message-ID: <98hr12+vtpf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14127

I was so delighted and excited that I was not too coherent..and
someone said the post got cut off..let's try again...

My son, Jesse, is now three and a half. To see him at age 3, at 
Halloween, in his Harry Potter costume..go to files, group members,
JesseHarry.jpg.

He started talking about Harry at two and a half, calling him "Harry 
Powder." He didn't really know the story because all he had heard was 
his parents discussing HP, some of the tapes, and he had seen the 
books. But he knew enough to know that Harry was a wizard and he 
wanted to be a wizard for Halloween.

When the trailer came out, I decided, that as a parent, I didn't want 
Jesse to be scared when he eventually saw the movie (at age 4), so 
that it would be best that we saw the trailer together, and discussed 
it. (If you believe that, I have land under water in Florida you can 
buy...) 

Bottom line..he loves it! He is probably MORE excited than me or my 
partner....

Susan (if you'd like to hear more, go to the next post)




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 06:46:55 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:46:55 -0000
Subject: Jesse and Harry Potter -- Part II
Message-ID: <98hrcv+43ql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14128

Jesse's responses have been consistent, but have been augmented in 
the last 24 hours since we posted by his endless questions, and my 
partner and my, endless attempts to explain the whole story to him..

His initial responses were:

"The owls..they send messages..."
"Harry has a white owl..like mine!" (Yes, he has the Hedwig look a 
look white puppet owl whose head swivels)
"My favorite is Harry."

Upon hearing that my favorite is Albus Dumbledore, when he got to the 
picture of Dumbledore he said "There Dumbledore! Your friend and 
mine!"

Then came the hard part..my partner and I tried to explain the whole 
story, clearly and slowly....

We told him that Harry was a little baby, about the age of his sister 
(Eleanor is 16 months). Voldemort came and killed Harry's mom and dad 
("they go to the summerland with Obi-Wan?" says Jesse), and tried to 
kill Harry. But Harry lived, which is why Hagrid says "Harry..you are 
the boy who lived!"

Today, Jesse added a toast to the evening meal. "Viva! Viva Harry..he 
lived!" Okay I can't do a very coherent explanation of everything 
Jesse does, he is wearing me out! But this is related to Robin Hood 
and Richard the Lion-Heart. Robin at one point toasted the King and 
said Viva the King! So..I hope this follows....

More soon....if you want to check out, now's the time!

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 06:52:51 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 06:52:51 -0000
Subject: Jesse/Dumbedore/Wart --- Part III
Message-ID: <98hro3+vts7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14129

So....

We explained to Jesse, my three year old... that Voldemort tried to 
kill Harry and failed. 

Albus Dumbledore sent Hagrid to rescue Harry, and Dumbledore decided 
to send Harry some place safe until he could go to Hogwarts.

BUT, the problem is that Dumbledore sent him to his Uncle Vernon 
Dursley and Aunt Petunia and they were not very nice to Harry.

Jesse: "Why they not nice?"
Me: "They didn't like him."
Jesse: "Why?"

Me: "Uh, well, Jesse, they're bigots.  They were prejudiced against 
wizards and witches, and so they were mean to Harry."

Jesse: "they bullies?"

Me: "yes, exactly, sweetheart.....So Dumbledore sent Harry to a safe 
place, but the safe place was not as nice as it could have been."

Jesse: "Like King Arthur?"

Okay, now you all think I am losing it big time...but in fact..Jesse 
has seen the Sword in the Stone, and he was making reference to how
Merlin sends Wart/Arthur to be with Ector/Kay and in the videotape,
Ector/kay are not very nice to Arthur....
I had not thought of this parallel, and would like to discuss it a 
bit more...

Hope I am making more sense, and that you all understand why I am a 
bit overwhelmed...

Susan




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 07:01:32 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:01:32 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter:  Fantasy or Sci-Fi?
References: <3AABA23D.680E4170@qnet.com>
Message-ID: <003901c0aac2$453ac270$6700a8c0@Shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 14130

Pippin wrote,

> There are Eureka! moments in the background of Harry Potter, just as
> there is a landscape in the background of the Mona Lisa. But in the
> foreground, there is what Tolkien calls the Eucatastrophe, the "sudden
> glorious turn that lifts the heart", when, by something we never
> expected to happen, the day is saved. When the Stone drops into Harry's
> pocket, when the sword drops out of Gryffindor's hat, when Prongs
> gallops out of the darkness, when Harry's parents appear from
> Voldemort's wand...those are  Eucatastrophes. They belong to the genre
> Tolkien called fairy-story and we call fantasy: the genre of The Lord of
> the Rings and of Harry Potter.

Hey--that's one fascinating distinction. SF turns on eureka moments, fantasy
on eucatastrophe moments. I think it's very helpful.

OTOH, I fear that distinction might be seen as reducing SF plots to special
FX. I'm no SF fan, but there's surely more to that sort of literature than
the "loud bangs and smells and sudden disappearings" (copyright prof.
Trewlaney). All significant ficition is about people; both SF and fantasy
simply create the world in which the story takes place. Also, though I don't
have Tolkein's article clearly in mind, couldn't it be said that all truly
moving fiction demands a moment eucatastrophe, or positive resolution and
reintegration? Or must the eucatastrophe be intrinsically connected to (and
inserperable from) the "fairy" part of the fairy tale?

I'm very curious!

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising
inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers,
but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high."




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 07:03:38 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:03:38 -0000
Subject: Part IV - more Jesse and Harry
Message-ID: <98hsca+lduc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14131

At the end of the first day, I asked, Jesse, what did you like best?

"The Goblins!..but Mommy" says Jesse "why goblins in bank? Harry get 
money?"

Okay, by today....

Jesse has asked and received clarification about the difference 
between the Hogwarts Express and Hogwarts itself...

He understands and articulates that Hagrid took Harry to the bank to 
get money so that Harry could buy "costume" and "wand"....

Has asked about the different Houses and had them related to his 
different groups at day care. Has received clarification about who 
the kids are (equivalent to kids at day care) and who the grownups 
are (equivalent to teachers at day care and parents and aunts and 
uncles). 

Has proclaimed that his favorite is Harry, and is now talking about
Harry's friends "Ron WEEESLEY..and URRmaneee.......he met them on the 
TRAIN..." Jesse has said "snake snape slithery".......and says that
Draco is a "bad guy" (sorry fanfic folks)....

Has insisted that Ron, Harry, and Hermione are NOT "running away" but 
are excited that they are about to fly on broomsticks......

It goes on and on..but the sweetest thing is that my partner took 
Jesse to the mall to buy me a birthday present..he told me that he 
was either going to buy me a light sabre or a truck...when he could 
not find me a light sabre he brought me home a Hogwarts teeshirt..
(yes, it is two sizes too small, but I managed to get it on my 
body..my partner knew it was too small, but said Jesse was so excited 
that it had to be bought..)

It is perhaps the most precious gift I have ever been given..

VIVA HARRY! The boy who lived...!

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 07:18:30 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:18:30 -0000
Subject: Albus Dumbledore (character sketch)
In-Reply-To: <98hfnb+q5m1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98ht86+3alo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14132

Brilliant.....

I would suggest finding a publisher, quick......

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 07:28:33 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:28:33 -0000
Subject: Albus Dumbledore (character sketch)
In-Reply-To: <98hold+ftat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98htr1+n7gl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14133

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ourobouros_1999 at y... wrote:




> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
>> > 4. If Dumbledore dies, who will succeed him as Headmaster? 
> > 
> 
Ourobouros responds:

> I say McGonagall. She's already assistant, and is Transfiguration 
> prof, like Dumbledore was in his day. 
> 


A month ago, I would have said that the books did not indicate that 
McGonagall had the stature to replace Dumbledore..that was before I 
caught a glimpse of the movie and saw how the actress brought depth 
to the character... 

Although Ms. Rowlings has done the outline for the books, I don't 
think that she is impervious to being influenced by the film ...I 
think that the actress might add such depth to the character of 
Minerva McG that Ms. Rowlings  might change her mind..

I do agree that Dumbledore will die in the last book.....

Susan




From mapfi at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 09:02:43 2001
From: mapfi at hotmail.com (mapfi at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:02:43 -0000
Subject: Harry the martyr/Harry the killer 
Message-ID: <98i3bj+lj2u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14134

How do you come to think Harry could even know the Avada Kedavra
curse? We've been told that it is very hard to learn, so who would
teach it to Harry? And would Harry really spend months or years on
Dark Arts, learning an unforgivable curse?




From vaile2000 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 09:02:44 2001
From: vaile2000 at hotmail.com (Tina Smart)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:02:44 +1100
Subject: Why Voldemort wanted the Potters dead?
Message-ID: <F246WuZ9NA0GufdMmMU00006d0f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14135

Dave said:


>Given that Voldemort is someone whose thinking is not exactly that
>of a normal rational person, is it possible that the reason that he
>wants Harry dead is simply because he's persuaded that the Potter
>family are genetically corrupt and degenerate and that they *all*
>must be exterminated to save all of Wizard-kind?


To me it seems Voldemort wants power over everything. And he will get rid of 
anyone or thing that is in his way. Rowling says this, I think at the 
beginning of book four, when Volde is talking to Pettingrew about killing 
Harry and the old man is found (and killed. Voldemort said something about 
getting rid of muggles (and anyone else) who's in the way, including his 
father). He killed his own father because he was a muggle. But the potters 
had skill or power in wizardry, and so they had to be destroyed before they 
could team up with others to destroy him. Or even if they couldn't do that, 
they could certainly make a neusance out of themselves.
Then again, if they could make a neusance out of them selves why was it so 
easy for Voldemort to kill them?

Now I've lost myself ;)

Tina.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 09:23:13 2001
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:23:13 +0100
Subject: friendly Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <984331647.651.82275.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010312100117.009f3020@rudjer.irb.hr>

No: HPFGUIDX 14136


Sarah Waggott wrote [in a post discussing Snape's motivations ]:

>Snape on the other hand was a loner, and Slytherins tend to stab each
>other in the back to get what they want.


One thing that always struck me about Slytherins is that they seem 
perfectly friendly to each other. They cheer just as loudly when, during 
the Sorting Ceremony, a new student joins their house.  They always seem to 
form an united front when dealing with any issue (not necessarily a good 
thing considering the issues).

I've always wondered if that was a result of "predator pressure", i.e. 
nobody likes us so we better stick together. In that case the unsavory 
reputation that Slytherin House gets could turn out to be a self-fulfilling 
prophecy.



Vlatka





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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 09:22:36 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Clayton)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:22:36 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 34 Summary
Message-ID: <F268CD40UzavtVHXZ6n00005712@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14137

>>1.	Harry has beaten Voldemort on several occasions by now.  Why then did 
>>Voldemort untie him and give him back his wand?  Is he on drugs or just 
>>stupid?

I think he just wanted to show that he can beat Harry, that the first times 
where he didn't were just lucky flukes for Harry. Voldie wanted to show the 
DE's that he was back and powerful and that the famous Harry Potter was 
really no more special than the next boy. I also think that Voldie dear has 
a weakness for flair and showing off!

>>2.	Were the apparitions emerging from Voldies wand ghosts?  If not, what 
>>were they and why were they able to speak to Harry?

I'm going with JKR's explanation that they were memory's or shadows - I 
can't remember what her exact words were atm. But I agree with her. Because 
hey, she should know!

>>3.	We know that the Avada Kedavra curse is associated with green light.  
>>But what was the symbolism, if any, of the red light streaming from 
>>Harrys wand?

For starters, I always thought that Voldie and the DE's magic in general was 
associated with green light, not just the AK curse. As for the red light, I 
think it just complemented the green, after all, red and green are opposite 
on the colour wheel (aren't they? Or am I getting mixed up?) They are 
generally accepted as opposites, anyway. Think traffic lights!

Also, I think it's interesting how JKR has switched the good/bad 
associations of green and red. Generally, green is a symbol of safe/good and 
red is dangerous/bad. (Think traffic lights again!) But in HP, its the 
opposite. Green is bad and red is good. I'm really rather intrigued by her 
decision to do that actually. I'd like to hear if anyone has any ideas why!

>>4.	Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a mistake, Jo 
>>had worked with it and come up with a reason for James emerging first?

Oh, definitely. I think just changing it in subsequent was a bit of a 
cop-out actually. There were so many delicious possibilities in it!

>>5.	Do you think well see Cedrics ghost at Hogwarts now?

Nope. I agree that it would diminsh the seriousness of his death, and it 
would be quite trite, actually, I think. Although, maybe Dumbly-dorr (I love 
Madam Maxime!) would have some wise words to say on the subject if Cedric 
did become a ghost, and perhaps clear up the question why some people become 
ghosts and some don't. Actually, he could clear that up with Cedric not 
becoming a ghost as well. It would make for a good D&M scene, with Harry 
about his parents, perhaps. Again, I wouldn't mind discussing this in more 
depth.

Liz
-----
'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry.
'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second cousin who's 
an accountant, but we never talk about him.'
-----

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From NicMitUK at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 10:01:21 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 05:01:21 EST
Subject: MEDIA: Jo on British TV
Message-ID: <5a.12497ca0.27ddf871@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14138

Hi all

BBC Breakfast News (www.bbc.co.uk/news) today Monday 12th March showed a 
small segment of an interview with Jo about the books for Comic Relief.   
This was aired at around 8.40am.

The interview was conducted by a child for the BBC Children's News programe 
Newsround (www.bbc.co.uk/newsround) - and I suspect the interview will be 
broadcasted on this afternoons Newsround (17:00 GMT, BBC1).

You should be able to watch the program after 17:30 GMT using RealPlayer - 
see http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/headlines.shtml for a link.

Nick



From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Mon Mar 12 11:36:36 2001
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:36:36 -0000
Subject: Got My Comic Relief Books
Message-ID: <98icc4+4l1f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14139

The postman dropped the two Comic Relief Books through the letterbox 
this morning in time for my daughter to take hers to school to gloat 
over her friends (not a trait I'm encouraging I hasten to add).  

Ms Rowling said on TV this morning that she had had more fun writing 
these two little books than she could have imagined.  

They are great fun to read - and I love Harry's notes on the magical 
creatures one.

Comic Relief day is on Friday - it will be very interesting to find 
out just how much the books will have raised by then.

Cheers for now
Pam




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Mon Mar 12 12:54:53 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:54:53 -0000
Subject: Questions for Jo and spoiler for new books
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEKHDFAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 14140

Hello

I have sent in a selection of questions from the list
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Chat-related/QUESTIONS%2
0FOR%20JKR%20CHATS.htm) to the red nose chat and it would be good if some
others can do so as well. It is probably best for some of us to each ask a
few questions rather than all swamping them with long lists that they may
easily ignore.

Below is the answer to one of the questions (37: What is the approximate
value of a galleon? Most of our group guesses 1 galleon might be anywhere
from 8/$5(US) --- 40/$25(US).)

But first follows some spoiler space as the information is from the two new
schoolbooks. Please respect all members of the group by remembering to use
spoiler space when talking about the two new books (Quidditch through he
Ages and Fantastic Beasts).

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

N
E
W

B
O
O
K
S

On the back of the books it also has the wizard price of the books and
hence we can do a conversion rate between the two.

2.50 is 14 sickles and 3 Knuts.
The Lexicon (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon) tells me that there are
17 to the Galleon.

Doing some complicated mathematics this gives a conversion of 1 Galleon = 3
UK pounds = 4.50 US dollars (roughly).

Seemingly a little low, so I am off to get a wand. Will only cost me a few
pounds, which seems very reasonable.


Simon




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 13:02:50 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:02:50 -0000
Subject: Chapter 34 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <98ihdq+qjt4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14141

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., voicelady at m... wrote:
> Questions
> 
> 1.	Harry has beaten Voldemort on several occasions by now.  Why 
then did Voldemort untie him and give him back his wand?  Is he on 
drugs or just stupid?

As I see it Voldemort needs to beat Harry in a fight to reassure 
himself that he can do it. He wants to show this to his DE, but I 
would say that he primarily needs it for himself. To me it seems very 
consistent with his world domination aspirations - comes from the 
same megalomaniac fantasy.

<snip>
 

> 4.	Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a 
mistake, Jo had worked with it and come up with a reason for James' 
emerging first?

No, I don't. I caught the mistake in my first or second reading of 
the book, and that's how it seemed to me then - a mistake. I shrugged 
and kept reading. It didn't bother me a bit. (unlike the portkey 
question which can still keep me awake at night. :-) )
> 
<snip>

Naama




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Mon Mar 12 13:03:03 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:03:03 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore Sketch
Message-ID: <98ihe7+gc6n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14142


7. In the passage describing his physical appearance, it is said that 
Dumbledore's  nose looks to have broken twice. Did Dumbledore play 
Quidditch as a younger man? 

It sounds just a la Rowling to hint about it through several books 
and then let him reveal that "I myself, in earlier days, where a 
pretty good...(what? a beater?)" however, in that case i dont think 
he was a professional. sure that would have been mentioned in the 
back of the card, when they even put in that he enjoys bowling?






From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Mon Mar 12 13:08:48 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:08:48 -0000
Subject: Questions for Jo and spoiler for new books
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEKHDFAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <98ihp0+jtl2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14143

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon" <simon at h...> wrote:
> Hello
> 
> I have sent in a selection of questions from the list
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Chat-
related/QUESTIONS%2
> 0FOR%20JKR%20CHATS.htm) to the red nose chat and it would be good 
if some
> others can do so as well. It is probably best for some of us to 
each ask a
> few questions rather than all swamping them with long lists that 
they may
> easily ignore.
> 

> Simon

Red Nose Chat?? I she on with another fanchat? Where and when?? 
Please
/jennifer




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Mon Mar 12 13:15:41 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:15:41 -0000
Subject: Questions for Jo and spoiler for new books
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINEEKHDFAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <98ii5t+8o51@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14144

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Simon, Dr.Mag." <simon at h...> wrote:
> Hello
[snip]
> Below is the answer to one of the questions (37: What is the 
> approximate value of a galleon? Most of our group guesses 1 galleon 
> might be anywhere from ?8/$5(US) --- ?40/$25(US).)
> 
> But first follows some spoiler space as the information is from the 
> two new schoolbooks. Please respect all members of the group by 
> remembering to use spoiler space when talking about the two new 
> books (Quidditch through the Ages and Fantastic Beasts).
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> F
> O
> R
> 
> N
> E
> W
> 
> B
> O
> O
> K
> S
> 
> On the back of the books it also has the wizard price of the books 
> and hence we can do a conversion rate between the two.
> 
> ?2.50 is 14 sickles and 3 Knuts.
> The Lexicon (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon) tells me that 
> there are 17 to the Galleon.
> 
> Doing some complicated mathematics this gives a conversion of 1 
> Galleon = 3 UK pounds = 4.50 US dollars (roughly).
> 
> Seemingly a little low, so I am off to get a wand. Will only cost 
> me a few pounds, which seems very reasonable.

A bit low, yes - particularly since, in the foreword, it is mentioned 
that Comic Relief has raised "174 million pounds since they started 
in 1985 - over thirty-four million Galleons".  This gives an exchange-
rate of ca. 5pounds 10p to the Galleon.  Still, it gives a wand of 
about ?35.70 - not a bad deal.  Five knuts for a copy of Daily 
Prophet, IIRC - equal to ca. 5p for a copy, with the exchange-rate 
from the foreword, or 3p, taking the rate from the back of the books.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 12 13:34:20 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:34:20 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Today's the Day (Move to OT-Chatter, Announcements, Spoilers for the Comic Relief Books)
Message-ID: <3AACD05C.BE1C11D6@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14145

Hi --

I'm about to resend the daily reminders on the moves to Announcements &
OT-Chatter for certain topics/posts.  These are effective TODAY.

Also, please heed the requirement for spoilers warnings & spoiler space
when discussing the Comic Relief books!

Thanks,

Penny
The Moderator Team




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 12 13:35:44 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:35:44 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: OT messages to move to the OTChatter List (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AACD0B0.A17700AE@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14146

Hi everyone --

Starting with March 12th, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup. This is in order to make it easier to
sort through messages and reduce overall message volume on this list.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

You will need to join this list, but as with any yahoogroup, you may set
your subscription options to (a) individual emails, (b) digests or (c)
webview only.  There are about 60 or so members over there already, and
the message volume promises to be high.  So, if you might not care much
about OT posts or care only now & again, the webview option might be a
good choice.

On this OT-Chatter list, you may discuss anything unrelated to Harry
Potter (subject to the rule against inflammatory topics - see below),
and you should, in addition, discuss the following HP-related things on
this list rather than the main HPforGrownups list (this is *not* an
exhaustive list):

*** Fanfic recommendations (recommending/discussing a fanfic by someone
else - unless
it can be tied to canon)

*** Listings of HP merchandise collections

*** Answering a roll call (e.g. for the H/H Cruiseliner or the Good Ship
R/H)

*** Detailing your results on a HP Quiz or Sorting Hat test

*** Short, fun posts, such as 'Tom Swifties'

*** Shipper Debates not supported by examples from canon

*** Opinions on HP artwork, book covers and other paraphernalia

*** Definitions or explanations of British words, phrases and traditions
related to HP

***  Exchanges of cultural information between the Americans and the
Brits

*** Anything that you would preface with "This is slightly OT but ..."

We wish this area of the club to remain friendly and welcoming, so the
Moderators will step in if any thread appears to be veering in a
contentious direction.   Examples of prohibited subjects include
politics and The Holocaust.

This message will be resent every day for the next 2 weeks.  If you've
read it once, there will be no need to re-read it.  We just want to be
sure that everyone gets the message.  Don't be surprised if you get an
e-howler (or at least a friendly reminder) from one of the Moderators if
you violate the OT policy.

Thanks for listening (more ADMIN messages to come -- please continue to
read them as they are important).

Penny
The Moderator Team












From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 12 13:37:04 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:37:04 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Announcements List is up & running (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AACD100.72727FE5@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14147

Hi everyone --

Your Moderator Team has been hard at work, looking for ways to reduce
message volume and keep the main group friendly & organized.

We've set up another sister Yahoogroup -- the HP4GU - Announcements
list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

This list is intended for those who want to receive announcements about
HP news, book release dates, fanfic plugs by the author, notification of
new merchandise, as well as periodic summaries of what the main group
has been discussing (including those members who cannot cope with the
high posting rate on the main list).

Please note that we are requiring the types of announcements that you
see listed below be made *only* to the Announcements List.  This will
reduce message volume on the main group.  The only messages that will be
duplicated will be the ADMIN messages posted to the main group and
copied to the Announcements list.

To manage the volume on this list, it is a moderated group.  This means
that one of the Moderators on the Moderator Team must approve your
message before it gets sent out to the list.

The following announcements are permitted (not an exhaustive list -
please check with the Moderators if you are unsure about your message):

*** The HPforGrownUps Newsletter (edited by Jeralyn and Ebony)

*** ADMIN messages from the Moderator Team (copies of those posted to
the main group)

*** Announcements of chat room sessions

*** Announcements of new discussion summaries posted to the main list

*** Plugs of fanfiction (one plug per chapter by the author)

*** Plugs of HP-related events (including regional Members' meetings)

*** Plugs of new HP websites or of new HP information on other websites

*** News releases, with links (this should include things related to the
Warner Brothers' movie)

*** Fun HP links, such as Sorting Hat quizzes

*** Alerts to new HP merchandise

*** JKR sightings; JKR events (book signings, tours, TV appearances,
chats, etc.)

*** Information on HP fan clubs

Again, we encourage everyone to join this group as well.  The message
volume should remain relatively low & focused (because the Moderators
must approve each message, you can be assured that the subject heading
will be relevant!).

Please remember that beginning March 12th, fanfic plugs, merchandise
sightings, news links and the like need to be posted *only* to the
Announcements list.  This message will be repeated several times over
the next few weeks to be sure everyone is aware of the changes.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team













From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 13:34:15 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:34:15 -0000
Subject: Albus Dumbledore (character sketch)
In-Reply-To: <98hfnb+q5m1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98ij8n+qg1s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14148

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Questions
> 
> 1. We all remember the chilling scene in GoF, when Barty Crouch Jr. 
> explains to Harry how each of his actions as Moody was coldly 
> calculated to advance Voldemort's agenda.  Will there someday be a 
> parallel scene where Dumbledore will explain his own coldly 
> calculated behind-the-scenes maneuverings to Harry? 
> 
I disagree completely with this interpretation of Dumbledore. Unlike 
Voldemort he does not view his fellow human beings as chess pawns. I 
do not think he views Harry as an insturment at all. He may have 
inklings as to Harry's destiny, he obviously has knowledge and wisdom 
that he doesn't share, but that doesn't make him "coldly 
calculating". I see his secrecy as arising from the same kind of 
logic regarding traveling back in time. You have to be very careful 
with what you know to avoid changing what shouldn't be changed. 


> 2. Dumbledore, Harry and Fawkes. Elderly man, young man and bird. 
Any 
> similar trinities come to mind?
> 
> 3.Will Dumbledore survive the series? Will he hang in there until 
> Book Seven, or perish earlier? Will be die with harness on his 
back, 
> like good king Macbeth, or peacefully in his bed? 

Since Dumbledore to me is almost indistinguishable from Gandalf, I 
see him surviving till the end and after. 
> 
<snip>
 
> 5. Voldy loves nothing more than to talk about himself (see 
Chapters 
> 32-34 in GoF).   By contrast, most of what we know of Dumbledore's 
> past was on the back of a trading card.  What is the significance 
of 
> Dumbledore's consistent refusal to talk about himself?

Well, Voldy is an egomaniacal psycho. He is so caught up with 
himself, changing himself, making himself stronger and then 
strongest, that he cannot see others, aside from how they can best 
serve himself and his interests. I see Dumbledore as the complete 
opposite - his wisdom is so great that he has reached selflessness, 
in the sense of not being at all busy with yourself. In this, he 
reminds me of Indian (or Buddhist) sages. 
> 
<snip> 
> > 
> 10. Dumbledore tells Harry that the one thing Voldemort cannot 
> understand is love.  Does Dumbledore understand love?  How does he 
> demonstrate (or fail to demonstrate) it? 

I think it's obvious from what I wrote above what my answer would be -
 yes, he certainly understands love. I think he demonstrates it 
practically all the time. Where else would all that patience and 
tolerance and empathy come from? 

<snip>

Naama








From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 12 13:38:30 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:38:30 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Spoilers for the JKR Schoolbooks (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AACD156.C99958C8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14149

Hi everyone --

The Moderator Team has decided to require spoiler warnings & spoiler
space for discussion of the schoolbooks to be released next Monday
(March 12th).  These 2 books are: Quidditch Through the Ages and
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.

For those of you unfamiliar with spoiler warnings, etc. -- here's a
brief review.  Put something like the following as your subject heading:
Quidditch book (SPOILER WARNING).  Include a minimum of 15 lines of
spoiler space before typing your message.  If you are replying, be sure
to include spoiler space and put your reply *under* the part that you
are replying to (ensuring plenty of spoiler space).  Here's how it
should look:

After your greeting, type the following

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

This will allow anyone who inadvertently opens your message to avoid
seeing any text.

Again, this ADMIN message will be sent out daily through the end of next
week.  We are currently thinking that spoilers should stay in place
about 2 weeks from the release date of March 12th.  You will be notified
when spoilers are no longer required.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team












From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Mar 12 14:35:53 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:35:53 -0000
Subject: On a bright, beautiful day like today
Message-ID: <98ims9+rvq1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14150

About 24 minutes after bookstores opened on the East Coast, after 
deciding to avoid reading anything with spoilers in it for at least a 
few hours, after realizing that even though Book 5 won't be out for a 
while yet, I will get a good JKR fix today, between the books and the 
chats, I just sat here in front of my computer, smiling.
And then I popped around the web to find urls of press about the new 
books for all of you.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46846-2001Mar9.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/12/business/12HARR.html?
searchpv=nytToday
http://www.cnn.com/2001/SHOWBIZ/books/03/09/rowling.advancer/index.htm
l
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/010312/80/bbjgx.html (also mentioning the 
Bridget Jones add-on by helen fielding (penny, you getting this one 
too?))

Also, supposedly, Comic Relief UK is auctioning off a few copies of 
the Schoolbooks, signed by JKR...haven't found an URL yet, though. 

And briefly OTopically, an URL for an article about The Phantom 
Tollbooth is at 
http://www.salon.com/books/int/2001/03/12/juster/index.html, just to 
make sure everyone knows that today is completely magical.






From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 15:44:21 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:44:21 -0000
Subject: Chapter 34 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <98iqsl+bmqq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14151

Ok I'm going to reply wtihout reading all the messages ahead of this 
summary. If the thoughts I give have already been given then I 
profoundly apologize because that means someone thinks the way I do 
:-) 
Questions
 
1.Harry has beaten Voldemort on several occasions by now.  Why then 
did Voldemort untie him and give him back his wand?  Is he on drugs 
or just stupid?

--He's an Evil Overlord who obviouly hasn't read the the Evil 
Overlord List :-) The truth is Voldemort isn't exactly the smartest 
evil villian I've ever seen. What he lacks in brains he makes up in 
Ego however, it must the the size of Hogwarts castle!  Honestly as 
plain as it is for us to see that Voldemort should see Harry as a 
real threat, he refuses to believe that is possible.  He wants the 
DE's to know that he IS more powerful than some scrawny little boy.

2.Were the apparitions emerging from Voldie's wand ghosts?  If
not, 
what were they and why were they able to speak to Harry?

--I am fairly certain that JKR said these were shades. Shades were 
the inhabitants of the Underworld in Greek mythology. I'm not sure 
whether or not they are the same thing as modern ghosts or not. 
Anyone? I think that they are more of "memories" or "shadows" of the 
people who they were. 

3.We know that the Avada Kedavra curse is associated with green 
light.  But what was the symbolism, if any, of the red light 
streaming from Harry's wand?

--Is it green for Slytherin? Hmmm...Is Harry's is red for Gryffindor? 
And then the the PI creates gold. We've got both red and gold 
there...what's the Gryffindor connection?

4.Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a 
mistake, Jo had worked with it and come up with a reason for
James' 
emerging first?

--Yes, yes and yes. I found the correction just didn't fit into the 
story. I could go on and on and on about what was wrong and how it 
SHOULD have been fixed. Anyway the we've been there and done that so 
I'll just leave it alone.
 
5.Do you think we'll see Cedric's ghost at Hogwart's now?

--Probably not, as Cedric seemed happy when he died, and he also got 
his last (postmortem) wish that his body would come back and it did. 
But it might be interesting to see Cedric as a ghost. But in Harry's 
world ghostscan interact with humans just as when they're alive, but 
they can't eat or touch etc. I don't think that it would be good for 
JKR to write him as a ghost because it would almost be like he was 
still there, and would take away from the obvious loss we (and the 
characters) are supposed to feel.

Scott
______________________________________________________________________

Faith:
"Not to worry," she said. "All you have to do is walk
straight at the barrier between platforms nine and ten. Don't stop 
and don't be scared you'll crash into it, that's very important. Best 
to do it at a bit of a run if you're nervous.  Go on now before Ron."
-Molly Weasly Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone by J. K. 
Rowling.





From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Mon Mar 12 15:51:33 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:51:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: FAQs Update
In-Reply-To: <3AAA7F9C.2713C99C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJHGODKMAPNGJPPHEOEJJCAAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14152

Hi Penny and Bruce, Still waiting to know if my membership to all your Harry
Potter groups has been approved? Please someone let me know and I hope it is
soon. Love to read all the e-mails from both groups. Thank you,from
WitchWanda2002 wr7238 at worldnet.att.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer [mailto:pennylin at swbell.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 2:25 PM
To: HPFGU - Announcements; HPforGrownups
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: FAQs Update


Hi --

We thought that we should fill everyone in on the topics covered in the
FAQs, since we noted yesterday that every topic that is covered in a FAQ
is considered On-Topic by the Moderators.  So, here they are (I've put
an asterisk) by the FAQs that are complete or virtually complete (just
need editing & fine-tuning).

THE WORLD OF HARRY POTTER
    British Education System
    Character Accents
    Character Names (Meaning, Origin, Pronounciation, etc.)
    Chronology & Timeline(s)
    Geography*
    Hogwarts
    Mysteries & Inconsistencies*
    Potential Romance Pairings*
    Predictions*
    Quidditch

CHARACTERS in HP
    Animal Characters*
    Sirius Black
    Albus Dumbledore
    Dursley Family*
    Hermione Granger*
    Rubeus Hagrid
    Neville Longbottom
    Remus Lupin
    Minerva McGonagall*
    Draco Malfoy (and Malfoy Family)
    Peter Pettigrew
    Harry Potter
    James & Lily Potter*
    Severus Snape
    Weasley Family*
    Ron Weasley*
    Lord Voldemort

    Similarities between Voldemort & the Potters

APPEAL & CRITICISM OF THE HP SERIES
    Universal Appeal of HP*
    Book Banning & Controversies
    Lawsuits*
    Racial Diversity & HP
    Religion & HP*

FANDOM
    Audio Versions
    CoverArt & Covers from Around the World
    Fan Clubs
    Fanfiction*
    Harry Potter Humor
    Movie*
    Merchandise
    Other Recommended Reading*

WIZARDING WORLD
    Clothing
    Economy
    Government*
    Magical Devices*
    Mythology & Magical Creatures
    Social Issues
    Spells & Charms*
    Wands*

J.K. ROWLING*

My estimate of completion wasn't too far off -- 22 of 50 are pretty
close to being ready to upload.  I suspect we are even further along
than that since I think some of the FAQ'ers just haven't uploaded drafts
that are fairly complete.  Additionally, some of the FAQs remaining will
be quite short & easy to write (Audio Versions, Fan Clubs, Character
Accents, etc.).

Hopefully, this message will also spur those FAQ'ers who are lagging a
bit behind to redouble their efforts.  <vbg>

Happy weekend to all --

Penny
The Moderator Team



_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join
now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.

(To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





From bray.262 at osu.edu  Mon Mar 12 10:59:38 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:59:38 EST5EDT
Subject: Watching "Harry" this past weekend
Message-ID: <1B0AF2B1FEE@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14153

I got my copy of the BBC's David Copperfield Friday and watched it 
Saturday afternoon.  Daniel was fantastic.  And it was great to 
finally hear his voice.  But what made me laugh out loud was the 
scene where Aunt Betsy picks him up and hugs him tight, 
laughing.  It was a funny image knowing that Maggie Smith is 
playing McGonagall.  Seeing McGonagall grab up Harry and hug 
him was really strange, to say the least!  :-)



Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Is he - a bit mad?" he asked Percy uncertianly.
"Mad?" said Percy airily.  "He's a genius!  Best wizard
in the world!  But he is a bit mad, yes.  Potatoes, Harry?"



From msl at fc.net  Mon Mar 12 16:26:58 2001
From: msl at fc.net (msl at fc.net)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:26:58 -0000
Subject: Chapter 34 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <98itci+jvf8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14154

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., voicelady at m... wrote:

> Questions
> 
> 1.	Harry has beaten Voldemort on several occasions by now.  Why 
> then did Voldemort untie him and give him back his wand?  Is he on 
> drugs or just stupid?

It seems that Voldemort's modus operandi is to play cat and mouse with
his victims, so in releasing Harry he's returning to type now that he
has the opportunity (yes, this contradicts some of my Dr. Evil stuff I
posted a while back).  Like all bullies, it's not enough for Voldemort
(or Death Eaters in general) merely to kill their enemies. He must
humiliate them first and induce fear, which is the real point.  It's
not just Voldemort being stupid as such; rather, Tom Riddle has no
reason to exist as Voldemort unless it provides the opportunity for
him to toy with his prey.  To extend the gustatory metaphor...as
Voldemort is not really human he no longer needs to consume in the
normal fashion--to win/to eat *is* to play with his food.

> 2.	Were the apparitions emerging from Voldie?s wand ghosts?  If 
> not, what were they and why were they able to speak to Harry?

I'm reminded of a magical photograph that reflects the subjects
character without really capturing it.

 
> 3.	We know that the Avada Kedavra curse is associated with green 
> light.  But what was the symbolism, if any, of the red light 
> streaming from Harry?s wand?

Green seems in general to be associated with icky stuff, including the
deadly curses.  Harry's red magic is interesting...kind of like giving
Luke Skywalker a red lightsaber.  It's a conqueror's color.

> 4.	Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a 
> mistake, Jo had worked with it and come up with a reason for James? 
> emerging first?

I'm glad I got an "uncorrected" copy of GoF, since I think the
rewritten scene reads poorly.  I'm not very much worried about the
wand order issue because the lack of LIFO consistency serves a good
dramatic purpose.  It's important that Harry's mom be the last person
to die in his defense as an infant (at least it is now, having read
the books).  And it's important that she follow James out of the wand
because it is at this point in the plot that Harry is to receive his
next Big Revelation.  James's emergence from the wand is simply
buildup because the appearance of Lily is the proper climax of the
scene.  To reverse the order dimishes Lily's importance and harms the
scene.

So here's my explanation:  well aware of the rules of drama, James and
Lily's echoes discussed with one another how best to appear from V's
wand for Harry's benefit.  Since Harry had by now become familiar with
the "feel" of James, it was necessary to give him extra incentive to
fight on by allowing a communion between Harry and his mother to take
center stage.
 
I really, really wish that JKR, instead of conceding to fannish
nitpicking, has simply said, "Would you rather that scene happen
differently in and of itself?  Of course not!"  and let it go.

> 5.	Do you think we?ll see Cedric?s ghost at Hogwart?s now?

No, but imagine if we did.....would that #&@! with students' heads or
what?  (Now, he might haunt Harry just a bit....)

Marvin Long
Austin, TX

Please don't be afraid.  Adrenaline will only make your blood taste
funny.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 16:54:12 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:54:12 -0000
Subject: Winerip criticism of PS/SS
Message-ID: <98iuvk+3skl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14155

I just read a 1999 review of PS/SS by Michael Winerip, for the New 
York Times.  It was generally extremely positive.  The following 
criticism really got me thinking, though:

>Most noticeably, Hagrid, the gentle
> giant of a groundskeeper who has selflessly protected Harry over and 
>over, suddenly turns so selfish he is willing to let Harry be
> punished for something that is Hagrid's fault. That's not the Hagrid 
>I'd come to know. 

I had so completely failed to think of this in umpteen readings of 
PS/SS that I had to go back and flip through the last few chapters 
even to know what he was talking about: Harry and Hermione getting 
punished for getting caught after sneaking Norbert off the tower.  And 
you know, this does seem a loose end.  They would've taken the 
punishment anyway, but I think for everyone to be in character, this 
is what would have had to happen:  Hagrid wails that it's all his 
fault, if he hadn't had that ruddy dragon they wouldn't have gotten 
into trouble, and now they're going to lose the House Cup and he 
should just quit Hogwarts right now.  Harry and Hermione say it was 
their own fault for being stupid enough to leave the cloak on the 
tower, he'd be in much worse trouble for dragon-breeding than they 
could ever be for being out of bed, it won't do any good for Hagrid to 
get sacked on top of everything else, and even if he confesses his 
part in the events, McGonagall will punish them anyway for being out 
at midnight.  Hagrid grudgingly keeps quiet and allows them to be 
punished.  

On the other hand, maybe that whole interlude is completely 
unnecessary, since I didn't pick up on the problem in all this time 
(the ridiculously dangerous punishment bothered me, but not the 
Hagrid problem).  Did anyone else?

You can read the whole review at http://www.hpgalleries.com/a110.htm.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
   "Dumbledore, you know what that woman is?"
   "I consider her to be a very able Headmistress--
 and an excellent dancer," said Dumbledore quietly.
                       -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------------------





From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Mon Mar 12 16:55:34 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:55:34 -0500
Subject: Neville; Ch. 34 Summary; Dumbledore
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0763@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14156

Here's a quick comment on Neville, before getting into deeper waters.
Aberforth's goat wrote:

> And while I'm on the topic: Jo said we're in for a surprise on the 
> next Gryffindor quidditch captain. I'm rooting for Ron, but I just 
> thought of a *really* surprising alternative: Let's grant that 
> Neville witnessed and was traumatized by his parent's torture as a 
> small child, and that this trauma explains his bad memory and 
> coordination. Well, suppose Neville were to duck in for a little 
> psycho-therapy over the summer holidays (I'm sure FFA clinic would 
> give him decent rates ... ) and come back to school with a perfect 
> memory and stunning quidditch skills?
> 

Given how afraid Neville was of flying in their first lesson, and what
happened, I doubt this is true. However, I do think that Neville has
surprises up his sleeve. My guess is that he'll have a growth spurt over the
summer and finally grow into himself. I think Harry's attitude will be more
inclusive of him and this will bring him out of his shell more. I do not
subscribe to the idea that his memory was altered artificially--he's just
not focused. But Neville will certainly grow as a character in the next book
or two.

> __________
> 
>
> Jeralyn's Questions for Ch. 34:
> 
> 1.	Harry has beaten Voldemort on several occasions by now. 
>  Why then did Voldemort untie him and give him back his wand? 
>  Is he on drugs or just stupid?
> 
This thread was started in Ch.  33, but I never saw any discussion beyond a
few isolated (and unacknowledged) posts. What exactly is the evidence that
Voldemort makes a string of mistakes? 

Others have postulated (and I agree) that this is as much a proof to himself
as to the DE's that he can do this. (I posted something similar after Ch.
33.) The fact of Harry has been bugging this dude for so long, I can't see
him NOT wanting to prove in an irrevokable fashion his superiority. And
again, he had absolutely NO WAY to predict that Harry's wand might share the
same core. Sirius, for reasons that are probably best described as a plot
device, had no idea that Prior Incantatem existed--that is, he asks
Dumbledore what happens when wands with a common core duel. Is it possible
that Voldemort also had never heard of this effect? I think it less likely,
but more probable that he had no inkling that such an event might come to
pass. 

But what is there to support the accusations of Voldemort's incompetence?
Again, I do not subscribe to the theories that link 16 year old memory/ghost
Tom Riddle to this incarnation of Voldemort. I see no evidence to suggest
that Voldemort knows anything about his diary's activity. Therefore you
can't include the 16 year old Tom's mistakes with Voldemort's. 

Even at that age, he effectively tracked down his birth father and killed
him and the older Riddles with no apparent trouble. His early rise (VWI) is
chronicled as a highly successful and terrifying campaign. If he were prone
to Evil Overlord mistakes, why wasn't he brought down before cursing Harry?
In PS/SS, it's not his incompetence, but Quirrell's, that allows Harry to
get away. Voldy can't exactly do anything physical in the state he's in,
even hold a wand. If he's not aware of or responsible for the diary's
activity, then one must skip CoS and PoA, since they bear no connection to
Voldy in GoF. 

Up until this point, his plans have gone about as well as could possibly be
expected. As I read it, the only error he makes is underestimating Harry's
resistance to Imperio and Crucio. 


> 2.	Were the apparitions emerging from Voldie's wand 
> ghosts?  If not, what were they and why were they able to 
> speak to Harry?

They were shadows. They also speak to Voldemort, remember, not just Harry.
It's reasonable to extrapolate that this is the effect of the Prior Incatato
as well, but the only instance we've seen of that spell is Amos Diggory
summoning the shadow Dark Mark, which isn't an object which can speak or
move. I would expect that if a Prior Incatato were cast on a wand which had
just cast "Serpensortia," the spell would conjure a shadow of a snake, which
could presumable slither around a bit before the wizard cast the spell to
diffuse it.

> 
> 3.	We know that the Avada Kedavra curse is associated with 
> green light.  But what was the symbolism, if any, of the red 
> light streaming from Harry's wand?
> 
Someone asked whether this had to do with the "Expelliarmus" spell on
Harry's part. I would say yes. In CoS, when Snape casts this charm on
Lockhart, "scarlet light" emits from his wand in a "dazzling flash." 

Whether colours of spells maintain any other significance is unknown. I
should expect that they probably do--Expelliarmus is a disarming charm, not
an overtly harmful one, but one that has incapacitating side effects. AK is
clearly an evil spell, as is the Dark Mark, therefore they are green?

Then why does Molly Weasley use green as Harry's colour so casually, even
though she correctly deduces that green clothing would "bring out the colour
of his eyes?" And how does this tie in to JK's comments that eye colour is
significant in the Wizarding World?

> 4.	Do you wish that, even though the original wand order 
> was a mistake, Jo had worked with it and come up with a 
> reason for James' emerging first?
> 

I think this was just an error made from a literary position--the scene
simply "feels" better to have James come out first and say, "Your mother's
coming; she wants to see you," than to have Lily come out and say, "Your
father's coming; he wants to see you." Both accomplish the same thing, but
the onus of tenderness is cast onto the female caregiver. It seems more
natural--not to open debates on the traditional roles of male and female
models in rearing children or anything--to hear that the mother is the one
who is anxious to see how her son has grown up. Empirically, it doesn't make
a whole lot of difference, though, except that either way, we are left with
one AK more than there are people. 

However, this inconsistency doesn't really bother me. I chalk it up to "JKR
is human" and go on.

 
Caius Marcius's Questions on Dumbledore:
> 
> 1. We all remember the chilling scene in GoF, when Barty Crouch Jr. 
> explains to Harry how each of his actions as Moody was coldly 
> calculated to advance Voldemort's agenda.  Will there someday be a 
> parallel scene where Dumbledore will explain his own coldly 
> calculated behind-the-scenes maneuverings to Harry? 
> 

I, like others, don't believe that Dumbledore is manipulating Harry coldly.
Manipulating, yes, coldly, no. And yes, there will be a scene eventually
where Albus tells Harry the whole truth.


> 2. Dumbledore, Harry and Fawkes. Elderly man, young man and bird. Any 
> similar trinities come to mind?
> 

You mean like Daedelus and Icarus?

> 3.Will Dumbledore survive the series? Will he hang in there until 
> Book Seven, or perish earlier? Will be die with harness on his back, 
> like good king Macbeth, or peacefully in his bed? 
> 

I don't think Dumbledore will survive the series, but I don't think we're
done with him yet. My prediction is end of book 6, because of how I see this
series arcing out. And no, it will not be a peaceful death. He will be one
of many who sacrifice to save the rest.

> 4. If Dumbledore dies, who will succeed him as Headmaster? 
> 
There are some really appealing aspects to Rebecca's theory that it will be
Snape. But I'm not as certain as she is that this is what will happen. It
depends on when and how Dumbledore dies, and under what circumstances the
school chooses its new Headmaster. Personally, I vote for Flitwick, but I
think it's more likely to be Minerva--if she isn't also dead.

> 5. Voldy loves nothing more than to talk about himself (see Chapters 
> 32-34 in GoF).   By contrast, most of what we know of Dumbledore's 
> past was on the back of a trading card.  What is the significance of 
> Dumbledore's consistent refusal to talk about himself?
> 

Living Legends don't have to brag or boast. One's reputation is generally
more easily maintained by letter others tell the tall tales and share the
stories. I think Albus has a great deal of modesty and no need to advertise
his accomplishments. I see him as a Sensei type, very secure in himself.
Also, I don't doubt that there's no small amount of pain in his past, his
memories of his life aren't necessarily all harmless nostalgia, and the less
said about certain periods (such as his involvement in the capture and
defeat of Grindlewald) the better.

> 6. How did Dumbledore defeat the Dark Wizard Grindelwald?
>

I'm so glad you asked. I'm working on a backstory that will address my take
on this, but I believe that there's no question Grindelwald was working with
Hitler. I think that in both cases, the senior officers realized they were
loose canons and conspired to do something about it. In the Muggle camp, the
attempt on Hitler's life failed. On the Wizard side, it succeeded, and the
disloyal officers (including a very young Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy's
father) were able to set Grindlewald up to run into Dumbledore and his team
of wizards who were on their way to besiege him. Without the assistance of
his lieutenants, Grindlewald was forced to duel on his own. And Dumblydore
kicked butt, but I don't think he's proud of it, in retrospect (see above).
Maybe Olympe was part of the French Resistance wizards who helped him
infiltrate the front to get to Grindy. (This also helps reinforce the Malfoy
family prestige among wizards.)

On the silly side, maybe he Transfigured himself into a germ and infected
Grindlewald a la Merlin and Mad Madam Mim. 
 
> 7. In the passage describing his physical appearance, it is said that 
> Dumbledore's  nose looks to have broken twice. Did Dumbledore play 
> Quidditch as a younger man? 
> 

Doubt it. He doesn't seem like the broom-flying type to me. I think he
received those breaks while working as a spy in WWII. (Rah, Rah, Albus!)
After the war, he settled down to relax at Hogwarts, figuring that teaching
unruly teens the ins and outs of Transfiguration was nothing compared to the
front.....

> 8. Did Dumbledore really forget to shut the door on the Pensive? Or 
> did he mean for Harry to find it?  Does the flashback to the Crouch 
> trial suggest that Dumbledore was considering the possibility that 
> Crouch might be lurking about? 
> 
Back to a more serious note, I don't think he meant for Harry to find it,
just as I don't think he meant for Harry to find the mirror of Erised. He's
certainly not upset with Harry, either time, for indulging his curiosity. I
think the Crouch scene appearing at this point is an indication that he's
thinking about Barty Crouch, Sr. and Karkaroff. He explains to Harry that
the Pensieve makes connections for the user, so I think the Pensieve picked
up on his thoughts about these two persons who are or are supposed to be at
the school, and drew connections based on the times he saw them together:
the trial; which led to Barty Sr.'s hard line of policy when dealing with
his own son. 

If the Pensieve is meant to free associate memories, then I don't think too
much can be read into the appearance of young Crouch at that time. Besides,
it's a plot device. Time to plant a Clue--ah, we'll use this neat gadget
thingy. This is not meant as an aspersion, btw, just an observation. More
highly acclaimed authors than Rowling have been known to do it, too.

> 9. "I did hear an excellent one over the summer about a troll, a hag, 
> and a leprechaun who all go into a bar......"  Does anyone know how the 
> rest of the story goes?
> 

Do we want to? Where did he hear it? Who told it to him? Does Minerva stop
him because it's a tangent, or because she's heard it and knows it's not fit
for kids' tender ears?

> 10. Dumbledore tells Harry that the one thing Voldemort cannot 
> understand is love.  Does Dumbledore understand love?  How does he 
> demonstrate (or fail to demonstrate) it? 
> 
Whomever said he understands love and uses it all the time, I agree.

> 11. Does Dumbledore really have a brother Aberforth? And how does 
> cast an inappropriate charm on a goat? (And please remember this a 
> family-oriented chat group). 

Sure, he has a brother Aberforth, but is he older or younger? 
Maybe the charm was to make the goat sing or something equally unappetising,
but innocuous. Okay, so I can't even type that with a straight face.....

Gwen



From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 12 16:58:16 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:58:16 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 34 Summary
References: <98hnih+91ea@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005301c0ab15$a2b04da0$5714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14157


Questions

 1. Harry has beaten Voldemort on several occasions by now.  Why
then did Voldemort untie him and give him back his wand?  Is he on
drugs or just stupid?

Voldy obviously has no qualms about killing kids, as he did Cedric in
without a thought.  So he can't be worried about what others think about
him, if he were to kill Harry unfairly. I think he had something to prove to
himself.  He felt that he could win a battle with an inexperienced teenager,
no problem, just because he is who he is. Never underestimate the enemy. The
scene when he handed Harry back his wand reminded me of the final scene in
Quiggly Down Under)

 2. Were the apparitions emerging from Voldie's wand ghosts?  If
not, what were they and why were they able to speak to Harry?

No. I think they are more like "finger prints" of murders done by your wand,
much in the same way that bullets can be traced back to a particular gun. I
think they could speak to Harry much in the same way that if they were drawn
out by the MOM, they could have told the MOM who had killed them.

3.We know that the Avada Kedavra curse is associated with green
light.  But what was the symbolism, if any, of the red light
streaming from Harry's wand?

hmmm red light green light ... opposite forces of good & evil?

4. Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a
mistake, Jo had worked with it and come up with a reason for James'
emerging first?

Yes, I wish that she had come up with a reason, even if she had to make one
up due to the printing mistake, or that she had just admitted it publicly,
corrected it, and gone on. She was too evasive about the wand error and also
about the descendant/ancestor error. It does not do much for her
credibility.

5. Do you think we'll see Cedric's ghost at Hogwart's now?

I think it would be interesting if he did show up, maybe during a Quidditch
match. Did he die happy? Was it enough for him that he won the Tournament
and that Harry took his body back to his parents? Or is he an unhappy ghost
because, even though he won the tournament, he didn't live to enjoy the
celebration... and he died leaving his Cho behind... I don't think he died
happy. I think he will show himself to Harry or Cho.

Doreen




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Mar 12 16:54:21 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (Tandy, Heidi)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:54:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: have books in hand
Message-ID: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D0142BA21@miaexch1>

No: HPFGUIDX 14158

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
If dumbledore is alive tto writ book intros in 2001, then does that mean he
survives the end of book 7?
And if the charity is "in harry potter's name" and not memory, does that
mean he does too?
--------------------------
Sent from heidi tandy' s BlackBerry Wireless Handheld 
Please reply to htandy at carltonfields.com

Confidential:  This e-mail may contain a communication protected by the
attorney-client privilege.  If you do not expect such a communication from
Heidi Howard Tandy, please delete this message without reading it or any
attachment, and then notify htandy at carltonfields.com of this inadvertent
mis-delivery. Thank you.



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 17:25:11 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:25:11 -0000
Subject: Neville; Ch. 34 Summary; Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC0763@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <98j0pn+ftmr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14159

Gwen wrote:

> What exactly is the evidence that
> Voldemort makes a string of mistakes? 
> 
> Others have postulated (and I agree) that this is as much a proof to 
himself
> as to the DE's that he can do this. (I posted something similar 
after Ch.
> 33.) The fact of Harry has been bugging this dude for so long, I 
can't see
> him NOT wanting to prove in an irrevokable fashion his superiority. 
And
> again, he had absolutely NO WAY to predict that Harry's wand might 
share the
> same core. Sirius, for reasons that are probably best described as a 
plot
> device, had no idea that Prior Incantatem existed--that is, he asks
> Dumbledore what happens when wands with a common core duel. Is it 
possible
> that Voldemort also had never heard of this effect? I think it less 
likely,
> but more probable that he had no inkling that such an event might 
come to
> pass. 
> 
> But what is there to support the accusations of Voldemort's 
incompetence?
> Again, I do not subscribe to the theories that link 16 year old 
memory/ghost
> Tom Riddle to this incarnation of Voldemort. I see no evidence to 
suggest
> that Voldemort knows anything about his diary's activity. Therefore 
you
> can't include the 16 year old Tom's mistakes with Voldemort's. 
> 
> Even at that age, he effectively tracked down his birth father and 
killed
> him and the older Riddles with no apparent trouble. His early rise 
(VWI) is
> chronicled as a highly successful and terrifying campaign. If he 
were prone
> to Evil Overlord mistakes, why wasn't he brought down before cursing 
Harry?
> In PS/SS, it's not his incompetence, but Quirrell's, that allows 
Harry to
> get away. Voldy can't exactly do anything physical in the state he's 
in,
> even hold a wand. If he's not aware of or responsible for the 
diary's
> activity, then one must skip CoS and PoA, since they bear no 
connection to
> Voldy in GoF. 
> 
> Up until this point, his plans have gone about as well as could 
possibly be
> expected. As I read it, the only error he makes is underestimating 
Harry's
> resistance to Imperio and Crucio. 

I mostly agree with you; I don't think V has done anything 
phenomenally dumb; we are just sensitive to any signs of Evil Overlord 
Syndrome because it's so overdone by authors who back themselves into 
a corner because they've made their Overlord so invincible, then have 
to have him do something foolish (usually due to arrogance) in order 
to bring him down.  Each thing he does "wrong" can be explained 
without him having EOS.  But there are a few mistakes that V does make 
that are more serious than I think you're estimating:

(1) his arrogance at age 16.  No, the grown-up V doesn't know about 
the events of CoS.  But if we are looking at his character overall, we 
can fairly include what his projected 16-year-old self did and say, 
"This guy has a pattern of letting his arrogance and ambition 
interfere with his judgment."

(2) his not anticipating being unable to touch Harry.  This isn't 
Quirrell's fault; how's he supposed to know?  It's his hands that 
burn, but it's Voldemort who is allergic to Harryskin.  And while this 
may be unexpected, it is part of the "ancient magic" that V really 
ought to study up on.  Which brings us to 

(3) his not anticipating the possibility of Lily's protecting Harry, 
however she did it.  Again, this was not something anyone predicted as 
far as we know, but V refers to it as "ancient magic," which implies 
that it is at least theoretically knowable by him or anyone who pays 
enough attention.  (I still lean toward the "it's pure love" theory, 
in which case "ancient magic" is a rather ironic term, like the Deeper 
Magic that causes Aslan to be resurrected in LWW.  Both authors are 
deliberately using the term "magic" to describe what is usually called 
"love," "Atonement," "sacrifice," or some other deep 
emotional/theological power.)

None of this adds up to a string of bad errors, but I think the truth 
is somewhere between "he's a typical EO who causes his own downfall 
through sheer stupidity or sniffing too much asphodel" and "he hasn't 
done anything careless."

> > 6. How did Dumbledore defeat the Dark Wizard Grindelwald?
> >
> 
> I'm so glad you asked. I'm working on a backstory that will address 
my take
> on this, but I believe that there's no question Grindelwald was 
working with
> Hitler. I think that in both cases, the senior officers realized 
they were
> loose canons and conspired to do something about it. In the Muggle 
camp, the
> attempt on Hitler's life failed. On the Wizard side, it succeeded, 
and the
> disloyal officers (including a very young Voldemort and Lucius 
Malfoy's
> father) were able to set Grindlewald up to run into Dumbledore and 
his team
> of wizards who were on their way to besiege him. Without the 
assistance of
> his lieutenants, Grindlewald was forced to duel on his own. And 
Dumblydore
> kicked butt, but I don't think he's proud of it, in retrospect (see 
above).
> Maybe Olympe was part of the French Resistance wizards who helped 
him
> infiltrate the front to get to Grindy. (This also helps reinforce 
the Malfoy
> family prestige among wizards.)

I look forward to reading your backstory (a Dumbledore fanfic?  Rare 
event!).  Warning:  careful about your dates.  As far as we can 
determine, Dumbledore was giving Tom Riddle significant looks in the 
corridors of Hogwarts at the height of WWII.  It's almost definite 
that he was teaching at Hogwarts before 1945. 

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 "I might remind you that *your* pincushion,
 Thomas, still curls up in fright if anyone
 approaches it with a pin!"
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------





From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Mon Mar 12 17:58:07 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:58:07 -0000
Subject: J.K Rowling appears on Blue Peter!!!
In-Reply-To: <002c01c0aa7d$7b449520$0200a8c0@jonnyold>
Message-ID: <98j2nf+7sn6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14160

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ben Leigh" <ben.leigh at c...> wrote:
> Hello everyone!
> 
> Guess what? J.K Rowling will be appearing on a Children's tv 
programme to
> answer viewers questions. I'll post a report on Tuesday since the 
programme
> is beinf shown on Monday.
> 
> Ben

I just saw it. She answered questions from kids who'd sent them in 
(some were in the studio, others had them read out). Most were the 
standard where-do-you-get-your-ideas, is-Harry-like-a-part-of-your-
family stuff, but there were some interesting titbits of information.

Much was said about the two Comic Relief books (which I wasn't 
planning to buy, but I might now). Apparently she was approached 
about doing a short story but decided to do the two books instead 
since,as she said, she can't do short. :) She already had a lot of 
the material in them but wasn't expecting to use it in the books, so 
she was pleased to write it down. (This is beginning to sound a bit 
like JRR Tolkien...)

As for the future books, she confirmed for certain that Mrs Figg and 
Arabella Figg are the same person. She was also asked about Harry 
coming back as a teacher after Hogwarts, and gave her usual 
cryptic "How do you know I won't kill him off in Book 7?" She went on 
to say that she has everyone's post-Hogwarts futures worked 
out...those who survive 'what's coming'. That remark should have most 
fans champing with anticipation!

Keith




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 18:09:42 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:09:42 EST
Subject: J.K Rowling appears on Blue Peter!!!
Message-ID: <d1.38c02f5.27de6ae6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14161

I have it on video... will encode it some point once I've got my computers 
running properly.

Nick.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andrea at noembromation.com.br  Mon Mar 12 18:20:06 2001
From: andrea at noembromation.com.br (andrea at noembromation.com.br)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:20:06 -0000
Subject: CHAT: Room with magical properties?
Message-ID: <98j40m+o1s6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14162

At the ongoing chat, Jo has mentioned a room which Harry visits in 
GoF, that has magical properties that he's not aware of yet. Are you 
thinking Prefects'Bathroom like me?

BTW, Ron's birthday is on March 1st. And some Hogwarts teachers are 
indeed married!

Andrea from Brazil




From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 18:25:33 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:25:33 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAT: Room with magical properties?
Message-ID: <79.116cd29f.27de6e9d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14163

In a message dated 03/12/2001 1:22:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
andrea at noembromation.com.br writes:

<< BTW, Ron's birthday is on March 1st. >>

AWWW!  Had we only known that sooner we could've had some sort of party for 
him....

About the magical room, hmmm...could be the prefect's bathroom, although 
there are a bunch of rooms in Hogwarts.

I just knew that Dumbledore and McGonagall were married! : )

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor



From NicMitUK at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 18:33:36 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:33:36 EST
Subject: JKR Live Chat 12-March-2001 - Transcript (incomplete)
Message-ID: <5f.1211ea69.27de7080@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14164

Hi all

Jo has just been chatting on the Comic Relief website.  I missed most of the 
chat, but here is what I did get.  Full transcript should be available from 
the BBC later.

Nick
------------------

JK - Writers love each other with a deep and enduring bond that sails above 
petty rivalries, Roland
JK - in other words
JK-  nobody's been nasty to my face!
Q Did you get good marks in your English GCSE's?
JK - I am pleased to tell you that I got As in my English GCSEs (well, 
O-levels as they then were)
JK - however, I got C for Physics and I was really proud of that
JK - because I didn't understand Physics at all and still don't.
Q - Shelia McCleary - Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?
JK - good questioin, yes, a few of them
JK - but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why...
Q -Glynnis L - Will harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley?
JK -You'll see... poor Ginney, eh?
Q - What's your most hated book of all time?
JK - that i've ever read? it's probably a Jeffery Archer
I made myself read one to find out whether it was bad as I thought and it was
Q - Does hermione like ron as more than a friend?
JK - the answer to that is in Goblet Of Fire
Q - Do we find out more about james potter's family history in the next books?
JK - yes you do.
Q - Where did you get your idea for the house elves
JK - house-elves exist in fokelore
I didn't invent the tradition that if you present them with clothes they will 
leave
I thought it would be funny if they thought clothes were a disgrace
except of course for dobby
Q - How much background information did you have before you started to write 
the first book?
JK - not too much, none, now I come to think of it.  I made up my won 
background information for 5 years at the same time as writing the first book.
Q - If you were Harry and had an invisiblity cloak what would use it for?
JK - I'd sneak into a few paces, I can think of loads, 10 downing street 
would be a good start.
Q - What happened to Neville's toad
JK - Trevor? He's sill lurking.
Q - Don't you think SF has the best voice for your books?
JK - Yes I definitely do, he's perfect, the moment they said he might be 
available I said 'GET HIM'.
Q - What or who would you send to Room 101
JK - cats - I don't like them... and certain journalists..
Q - What gave you the idea of having the Owl post system
JK - Pigeon post
Q - what would you say to those people who think that Harry Potter is too 
scary for children?
JK - well I think it's foolish to try and 'protect' children from Harry.  I 
can't think of any sure way to make them desperate to read the books.  As 
I've already said, I think of them as very moral.
Q - What will you be doing on Comic Relief Day... will we see you on the show?
JK - I'll be watching the television, of course!  I always watch COmic Relief
and I'll be wearing my Red Nose while reading Fantastic B & Quidditch.
and sporting my 'Pants for Poverty T-Shirts'.
because we want to make LOADS and LOADS of money and incidentally I'm very 
annoyed I'm missing Celebrity Big Brother tonight.
Because I'll be flying back to Edinburgh
Could someone tape it for me?
Q - If you could pick your own wand core, what would it be?
JK - phoenix feather and possibly walnut... I love walnut wood.

Full transcript will appear shortly at www.bbc.co.uk/rednoseday



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From NicMitUK at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 18:43:45 2001
From: NicMitUK at aol.com (NicMitUK at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:43:45 EST
Subject: Book 7 (SPOILER WARNING)
Message-ID: <7d.121fb2b6.27de72e1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14165

Book 7 news...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

On Blue Peter this afternoon:

Child: When Harry leaves Hogwarts will he return as a teacher?

Jo:  How do you know I won't kill him off in book 7!  I know what will happen 
to 
      all of them after Hogwarts, the people who survive, but I'm not going 
to tell you.

Well, from that I conclude that Harry will not be with us beyond Book 7.  I 
know some of you won't agree with that... but it's a logical way to end a 
series of books.

Nick.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Mar 12 18:53:28 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:53:28 -0000
Subject: Book 7 (SPOILER WARNING)
In-Reply-To: <7d.121fb2b6.27de72e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <98j5v8+34as@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14166

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., NicMitUK at a... wrote:
> Book 7 news...
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> On Blue Peter this afternoon:
> 
> Child: When Harry leaves Hogwarts will he return as a teacher?
> 
> Jo:  How do you know I won't kill him off in book 7!  I know what 
will happen 
> to 

 (snip)

> 
> Well, from that I conclude that Harry will not be with us beyond 
Book 7.  I 
> know some of you won't agree with that... but it's a logical way to 
end a 
> series of books.

She has made these types of statements many times before. I agree it 
does give the impression that Harry might not survive the books, but 
it isn't any sort of conclusive proof. I think she's just trying to 
be cagey about it. I don't think it's a spoiler at all, since it's so 
vague. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Mon Mar 12 18:54:58 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:54:58 -0000
Subject: CHAT:  More info
Message-ID: <98j622+e44u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14167

Here are my notes from the chat:

Snape is 35 or 36 years old.

You can do unfocused and uncontrolled magic without a wand (Harry 
blowing up Aunt Marge, for instance), but to do really good spells, 
yes, you need a wand.

JKR thinks fanfics are wonderful, she's happy HP has inspired so many 
to write.

She plans her books so carefully, sometimes she thinks 'her brain is 
going to explode'...

A galleon is equal to about five pounds.

Ron's birthday is March 1.

Have any of the HW professors had spouses?  Yes, a few, that info is 
sort of restricted, you'll find out why...

Will Harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley?  You'll 
see...poor Ginny, eh?

Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?  The answer to that is 
in Goblet of Fire...  (Yay, Zsenya, you made it through!)

Someone asked about Trelawney's first correct prediction, but she 
couldn't answer, said it would give too much away.

Andrea already mentioned about the room  in GoF with magical 
properties; my first thought was the kitchen...  Well, again none of 
my questions made it through, but at least she gave Ron's b-day, and 
Snape's age.  (I was trying for those, too.)

Kelley




From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 18:59:47 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:59:47 -0000
Subject: SHIP (sorry) Re: CHAT:  More info
In-Reply-To: <98j622+e44u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98j6b3+8gil@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14168

<snip>
> Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?  The answer to that 
is 
> in Goblet of Fire...  (Yay, Zsenya, you made it through!)
> 
<snip>

 And this raises the very shippy question of "Whaaaaaaaat?" Is that a 
yes or a no? That could be taken both ways! That was evading the 
question! Arrrgh! One could say that she was acting like she did 
after the Yule Ball, and one could say that she was acting like she 
didn't by...being a lot nicer to Harry. How utterly frustrating. I'll 
go bang my head on a wall now.

MC




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Mar 12 19:01:20 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:01:20 -0000
Subject: CHAT:  More info
In-Reply-To: <98j622+e44u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98j6e0+dstk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14169

\
> Snape is 35 or 36 years old.

Oh boy, this is a biggie. We can now place the Marauders on the time 
line. Okay, I'm going to be busy for a little while now. The heck 
with work.

Are there going to be transcripts available for these chats? Can 
someone give me the "official" description (ie such and such a 
channel at this time on this day, this programme, etc.) I need to 
create an entry for the Lexicon > sources of information.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which will have all this stuff added to it in the next day or so
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 19:06:45 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:06:45 EST
Subject: SHIP: H/G at last!  Re: [HPforGrownups] CHAT:  More info
Message-ID: <f6.8095651.27de7845@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14170

In a message dated 03/12/2001 2:03:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com writes:

<< Will Harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley?  You'll 
 see...poor Ginny, eh?
  >>

<Jumps and down excitedly>  Hooray, Hooray, Hooray!  Ok, at least she's 
giving us some sort of hope!  At least I know that my efforts involving my 
H/G fanfic isn't totally a waste....

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor 



From bbennett at joymail.com  Mon Mar 12 19:18:02 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:18:02 -0000
Subject: SHIP, CHAT: re: More info
In-Reply-To: <98j6b3+8gil@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98j7da+429t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14171

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Slytherin_Daughter at y... wrote:
> <snip>
> Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?  The answer to that 
> is in Goblet of Fire...  (Yay, Zsenya, you made it through!)

<And this raises the very shippy question of "Whaaaaaaaat?" Is that a 
yes or a no? That could be taken both ways! That was evading the 
question! Arrrgh! >

Well, I know how I intend to take it <g>. Seriously, if I were JK, 
I'd be evasive, too - this must be great fun for her! I'm just 
delighted Zsenya had a question addressed, AND I'm thrilled to hear 
that JK approves of fan-written fiction. This and the textbooks - 
it's been a good day!

B






From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 19:27:17 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:27:17 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: QTA, FBWFT
Message-ID: <98j7ul+m91p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14172

Hullo!


S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

F
O
R

N
E
W

B
O
O
K
S
----------
Okay. There is a lot of not-so-obvious-yet-very-important info in 
these. We now know that Hogwarts is, in fact, in Scotland (FB, pg.2, 
section about Acromantula), and...one of the more bizzare things is 
on the very first page of QTA. It has the list of all students that 
had the book, and when it was due back. However, there is a list of 
them with the due date in the summer time! "C. Diggory, A. Johnson, 
E. Macmillan, T. Boot"...the list goes on. Does this mean some 
students can stay at Hogwarts during the summer break? In CoS, Harry 
sees Tom Riddle asking Dumbledore if he can stay instead of going 
back to the orphanige. The only weird thing is that the students 
listed are ones we know about, so why wouldn't that come up in 
conversation? And why isn't Hogwarts as safe as the Dursley's?

Emily (MC)




From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 19:34:31 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:34:31 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILERS: QTA, FBWFT
Message-ID: <c3.ea6f0a6.27de7ec7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14173

In a message dated 03/12/2001 2:30:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com writes:

<< Does this mean some 
 students can stay at Hogwarts during the summer break?  >>

I'm thinking that you could probably owl the books back to Hogwarts.  Madame 
Pince might be married to Filch, and so they would be the caretakers while 
they are away.

<<And why isn't Hogwarts as safe as the Dursley's?>>

Well, if Dumbledore and the other professors aren't at Hogwarts during the 
summer, the castle may not be as safe as it is during school.  That's just my 
thoughts.

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor  



From flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 19:35:46 2001
From: flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com (flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:35:46 -0000
Subject: Steve Vander Ark's post
In-Reply-To: <98j6e0+dstk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98j8ei+a0f1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14174

If this is repeated, sorry but it didn't look like it got through the 
first time.  

I think JKR is referring to the year that she is presently writing 
about, namely 1995-1996, Harry's fifth yearat Hogwarts.  We know that 
Harry was born in 1980, due to the timeline set down in CoS (the 
500th anniv. Deathday party).  Otherwise, Lily would have been about 
15 or 16 when she gave birth to Harry, which seems unlikely. So, if 
we were talking about Snape's age in the present, he would be about 
41-42, born in 1959 or 1960. That would make lily about 20-21 when 
Harry was born. Much more logical.



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> \
> > Snape is 35 or 36 years old.
> 
> Oh boy, this is a biggie. We can now place the Marauders on the 
time 
> line. Okay, I'm going to be busy for a little while now. The heck 
> with work.
> 
> Are there going to be transcripts available for these chats? Can 
> someone give me the "official" description (ie such and such a 
> channel at this time on this day, this programme, etc.) I need to 
> create an entry for the Lexicon > sources of information.
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> which will have all this stuff added to it in the next day or so
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Mon Mar 12 19:36:17 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:36:17 -0500
Subject: Voldemort's brand of EOS (Was Ch. 34); Dumbledore
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC076A@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14175

I wrote a bunch of stuff in Defence of Voldemort (ycch) and AmyZ wrote:
> 
> I mostly agree with you; I don't think V has done anything 
> phenomenally dumb; we are just sensitive to any signs of Evil 
> Overlord 
> Syndrome because it's so overdone by authors who back themselves into 
> a corner because they've made their Overlord so invincible, then have 
> to have him do something foolish (usually due to arrogance) in order 
> to bring him down.  Each thing he does "wrong" can be explained 
> without him having EOS.  But there are a few mistakes that V 
> does make 
> that are more serious than I think you're estimating:
> 
> (1) his arrogance at age 16.  No, the grown-up V doesn't know about 
> the events of CoS.  But if we are looking at his character 
> overall, we 
> can fairly include what his projected 16-year-old self did and say, 
> "This guy has a pattern of letting his arrogance and ambition 
> interfere with his judgment."
> 
Depending on the timeline, this diary was created shortly before he murdered
his father. He's certainly arrogant, and he hasn't lost that brazen
self-confidence, but I think it's overstating to say that a 16 year old
who's power hungry will necessarily become a mad sorcerer (though he comes
dangerously close to saying, "I am invincible!" in the Chamber scene).

> (2) his not anticipating being unable to touch Harry.  This isn't 
> Quirrell's fault; how's he supposed to know?  It's his hands that 
> burn, but it's Voldemort who is allergic to Harryskin.  And 
> while this 
> may be unexpected, it is part of the "ancient magic" that V really 
> ought to study up on.  Which brings us to 
> 
> (3) his not anticipating the possibility of Lily's protecting Harry, 
> however she did it.  Again, this was not something anyone 
> predicted as 
> far as we know, but V refers to it as "ancient magic," which implies 
> that it is at least theoretically knowable by him or anyone who pays 
> enough attention.  (I still lean toward the "it's pure love" theory, 
> in which case "ancient magic" is a rather ironic term, like 
> the Deeper 
> Magic that causes Aslan to be resurrected in LWW.  Both authors are 
> deliberately using the term "magic" to describe what is 
> usually called 
> "love," "Atonement," "sacrifice," or some other deep 
> emotional/theological power.)
> 

I think it's highly unlikely that every other mother of a small child in
that era simply stepped aside when told to and chose their lives over the
lives of their children. I think it's much more likely that he's encountered
this kind of resistance before but never had any trouble overcoming it. For
whatever reason, Lily and Harry were the exception. Even with a knowledge of
"deep ancient magic," it's difficult to see how one would foresee this. It
may be we don't have enough information about the DE's early activity to
decide this yet either way. As for anticipating that his allergy would
transfer to Quirrell, I don't have an explanation for that.

> None of this adds up to a string of bad errors, but I think the truth 
> is somewhere between "he's a typical EO who causes his own downfall 
> through sheer stupidity or sniffing too much asphodel" and "he hasn't 
> done anything careless."
> 

Yeah, and I never thought I'd be the one defending the git. But he certainly
hasn't struck me as the type to think up impossibly elaborate death
scenarios and he's never yet mistreated Nagini, so at least he loves his
pets. His minions do have those face-hiding masks, though....

> 
> I look forward to reading your backstory (a Dumbledore fanfic?  Rare 
> event!).  Warning:  careful about your dates.  As far as we can 
> determine, Dumbledore was giving Tom Riddle significant looks in the 
> corridors of Hogwarts at the height of WWII.  It's almost definite 
> that he was teaching at Hogwarts before 1945. 
> 

I think this comment warrants a Homer Simpson "D'Oh!" Did I say spying
during WWII? I meant WWI---he came out of retirement to fight in WWII. But I
do think that the first CoS wasn't _exactly_ 50 years before Harry's
CoS--the characters all say "about" 50 years ago. I think it's much more
likely that the CoS was opened around 1940, thus giving even Dumbledore time
to become enlisted in the fight against Grindlewald and defeating him in
1945.

Apologies to non-fan-fic readers. You can skip this paragraph. And it's not
exactly a Dumbledore backstory, per se. See, I'm writing a fic that involves
Dumbledore at a very young age and in the present, and to do that, I had to
know things about his past. The story also involves Lucius Malfoy, so I had
to know about his past as well...which means learning his father's story,
intertwined with Dumbledore's and Riddle's.... Lucius decided to tell me all
about it. In more detail than I really wanted to know. But perhaps some of
the Grindlewald period of Dumbledore's life will work its way into the
present story, as well...


Gwen



From gaynor at cheerful.com  Mon Mar 12 19:41:50 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:41:50 -0000
Subject: JKR Live Chat :Transcript of first part of chat (incomplete)
In-Reply-To: <5f.1211ea69.27de7080@aol.com>
Message-ID: <98j8pv+343h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14176


Here is the first part of the transcript of the JKR live chat - 
unfortunately my internet connection gave up the ghost about two 
thirds of the way through. This means there is a gap between the end 
of this and the end part that Nick posted earlier.

Also, my browser point-blank refused to allow me to cut and paste, so 
I had to type this, so I apologise in advance for any typos that have 
crept in (especially toward the end, my fingers were tired!)

As Nick said, the full transcript will be at www.bbc.co.uk/rednoseday 
sometime tomorrow, I think

Gaynor

****************************

Q What made you start writing the Harry Potter series?
JK: I had the idea on a train in 1990 and I just thought it would be 
such fun to write and it is!

Q How do you choose the names for your books?
JK: with difficulty?KI??ve changed my mind a few times
That was a problem with Goblet of Fire
Which was originally called ??The Doomspell Tournament??

Q How old is Professor Dumbledore and Professor Snape?
JK: Dumbledore??s about 150 years old
Wizards have a longer life expectancy than us Muggles
Snape??s 35 or 6

Q Have you wanted to be an author from a young age or is it a recent 
decision?
JK: I??ve always wanted to be a writer
As far back as I can remember
And I??ve always been writing
Though had nothing published before hp

Q What??s the favourite Harry Potter book that you??ve written so far?
JK: Probably Goblet of Fire
Though it??s very hard to choose
It??s usually the book you??ve done most recently.

Q Will the Weasley twins open their joke shop, where and when?
JK: come on ?K
Do you really really think I??m going to tell you that?!

Q If you could be a wizard for a day, what would you do and why?
JK: how do you know they won??t die from a surfeit of Canary Creams 
before they get a change?
Oops sorry
Still answering previous question?K.
If I were a witch for a day I??d fly
And probably get revenge on a few people ??

Q When will book 5 be released?
JK: Don??t know, sorry!
It??s not finished yet

Q Where did you get your inspiration for the Harry Potter series?
JK: but it won??t be out to coincide with the film, so don??t believe 
that rumour
I don??t know where inspiration comes from, I wish I did!

Q What do you think about Tolkien??s ??Lord of the Rings???
JK: I read it when I was about twenty I think and I liked it a lot
Though I??ve never re-read it, which is revealing
(usually with my favourite books I re-read then endlessly)
but he created a whole mythology, an incredible achievement.

Q How do you choose the names for the creatures in your stories?
JK: I make up most of them
But some of them are obscure old English words I like
And merrily abuse by applying them to some horrible creature
I also get a lot of names from maps
I don??t imagine I??m very popular in Dursley.

Q Why did you chose the name Harry Potter and did you base the 
character on someone you know?
JK Harry is completely imaginary
I took his surname from a family I lived near when I was a child, 
just because I liked the name
And ??Harry?? has always been one of my favourite Christian names

Q If you could be any Harry Potter character who would it be and why?

JK: I??m most like Herman, or was when I was younger, so it would 
probably have to be her, though I would most like to be like 
Dumbledore ?V I??d like his wisdom

Q Do you need a wand to do Magic??

JK: You can do unfocused and uncontrolled magic without a wand

(for instance when Harry blows up Aunt Marge)
but to do really good spells, yes you need a wand..

Q Aren??t you worried people will guess the plot before you??re 
finished writing the potter books?

JK: Not really, because even if they do guess it shows how much 
attention they??ve given the previous books!

Q What do you think about the mass marketing of Harry Potter 
merchandise to tie in with the movie? Do you like any of it, and do 
you think it is a good idea to have a ??universal Harry?? image rather 
than keeping that which has become specific in different countries?

JK: Well, we always knew there would be merchandising along with the 
move and Warner Bros have given me a lot of input on it.

As for a general view of Harry, I think most people??s idea of him 
comes from the different book covers
Around the world at the moment and they??re not changing
We??ll have to see what happen once people have seen Dan Radcliffe I 
suppose!
..

Q Is Hagrid EVER going to get cooking lessons (pref Jamie Oliver)
J: hee hee hee
No, Hagrid LIKES what he cooks
He can??t see any room for improvement
He likes stoat sandwiches, bless him?K

Q How long each week do you spend writing Harry Potter?
JK: depends
Sometimes I do ten hour days
Sometimes (like today) I don??t get to do anything
I like the ten hour days best
..

Q I??m 20 and think the Harry Potter books are great, what do you 
think makes them appealing to  such a wide age group?

JK: thank you Alan :)

I think (but I don??t really know, because I??m not good at being 
objective about my own work)
That as I wrote primarily for myself, that probably shows in the books
The sense of humour is mine, not what I think children find funny, 
for instance..

Q Does it bother you that in America they changed the names of your 
books?

JK: they changed the first title, but with my consent
To be honest, I wish I hadn??t agreed now
But it was my first book, and I was so grateful that anyone was 
publishing my I wanted to keep them happy..

Q Has Harry got a middle name and if so what is it?

JK: Yes, he has
It??s James of course!
..

Q What age rating is the new film, will I be able to see it (aged 8)

JK: I??m not sure
O I don??t think that??s been decided yet

Q How did you come up with the name Quidditch?

JK: I played around with words beginning with ??Q?? for ages
I don??t know why ??Q??, it was just a whim
And then I came up with Quidditch and knew it was the one

Q What address do we send letters to about Harry, like those that we 
see in the book?
JK: you send them to Bloomsbury publishers, address inside book

Q Have you ever thought about doing a completely new series of books?
JK: Let me finish this one first!
I haven??t decided what I??m going to do next
I??ve still got three novels to go!

Q How do you feel about thousands of fans writing fanfiction and 
having them posted on the Internet?
JK: It??s wonderful?KI love writing more than almost anything in the 
world
So the idea that Harry has inspired other people to write makes me 
very happy

Q How do you cope with the aggravation from strongly religious people 
against witchcraft/

JK: well, mostly I laugh about it
I ignore it?Kand very occasionally I get annoyed, because they have 
missed the point so spectacularly.
I think the Harry books are very moral
But some people just object to witchcraft being mentioned in a 
children??s book
Unfortunately, that means we??ll have to lose a lot of classic 
children??s fiction

Q Does your daughter read the books before anyone else?

JK: No, thought she??s pretty annoyed about that!
She??s only seven and I think it would be a horrible burden on her
If I told her secrets
She already gets surrounded in the playground and interrogated!

Q Do you think Hogwarts will be doing anything for Red Nose day?! 
Will there be a spell for casting red noses on everyone!!
JK: ooooo yes I think so
And they??ll probably dress up as Muggles for a day

Q What advice would you give to budding writers hoping to follow in 
your footsteps?
JK: read, read,read,read,read and then read a bit more
It??s the only way to learn what makes good writing
And then practise loads and loads and loads..
And resign yourself to the fact that you will hate nine tenths of 
what you write at first?K.
And then, one day, you??ll write one page that you really like, and 
you??ll go from there..

Q how carefully do you plan your books?
JK: so carefully I sometimes feel as though my brain is going to 
explode..

Q Do you have a fan club address?
JK: The best way to contact me is via Bloomsbury publishers
..

Q Do you feel the Harry Potter film will take away the imagination 
and magic from the book?
JK: Well, obviously, I hope not!
I??m excited about seeing the film, but then no film could ever ruin 
my favourite books for me

Q What is your favourite book ever (not including Harry Potter)
JK: let??s see?K there are loads?K
Probably ??Emma?? by Jane Austen?K
Or ??The Van?? by Roddy Doyle?K
There are so many

Q Have you ever suffered from writers block, and how did you get over 
it?
JK: I don??t know whether it was really writer??s block, because I was 
still having ideas
However, during the writing of Chamber of Secrets I sort of froze
It was really panic, because the first book suddenly received a lot 
of publicity
And I hadn??t expected it and got into a right old state?K

Q. Have you ever sneakily written yourself into a book??
JK: noooooooo?K. Well, yes. Herman??s based on me when I was younger
She??s an exaggerated version of me
I wasn??t that clever
And I don??t think I was quite such a know-it-all
But I had my moments?K

Q Why were there no pictures in your books?
JK: Actually, I drew some pictures for book one
And the publishers didn??t want them
They felt that putting in pictures implied the books were for younger 
children
But I drew the pics for Quidditch Through the Ages and Fantastic 
Beasts, so that was fun..

Q My sisters and I go to a Welsh school and would love to read Harry 
Potter books in our own language any chance?
JK:  There??s a thought!
If there are any welsh language publishers logging on, they should 
talk to Christopher Little, my agent

Q Are you going to write a cook book about all the sweets in the 
Harry potter Books?
JK: Hmmmmmm?K probably not?K if you read ??Fantastic Beasts?? you??ll find =

out that a few of the ingredients would be difficult to find in 
Sainsbury??s!

Q What is the approximate value of a galleon?
JK: about five pounds, though the exchange rate varies!..

Q If you could travel to Hogwarts for an hour, what would you do 
there?
JK: go straight into a certain room, mentioned in book four
Which has certain magical properties Harry hasn??t discovered yet!

Q On the Hogwarts crest, there is a motto written in Latin, what does 
it stand for?
JK: it mean ??never tickle a sleeping dragon??
Good sound practical advice?K

Q When did you decide there would be 7? Right from the start?

JK: yes, I always planned seven books,
One for each of Harry??s years at Hogwarts

Q What is your best time of day for writing?
JK: probably evening
I??m a really night owl and the best ideas come at midnight..

Q Did you have a real school in mind when you invented Hogwarts?
JK: no I??ve never been anywhere like Hogwarts, if onl!
(only, I mean)
I went to a very normal Comprehensive.

Q How many rough copies do you have to do before you get it right?
JK: loads and loads and loads
The worst ever was thirteen different versions of on chapter
(chapter nine in Goblet of Fire)
I hated that chapter so much; at one point, I thought of missing it 
out altogether
And just putting in a page saying ??Chapter Nine was too difficult?? 
and going straight to Chapter Ten

Q My name is weird (Chesann Blampied) would you use it in a book?
JK: oh yes, Blampied is an excellent name
But would you sue me if I made you into a Slytherin?

Q Were you encouraged to write as a child?
JK: I didn??t need to be encouraged, I was always writing
I think my parents thought of it as a hobby
I never told them it was all I wanted to do with my life
No pension scheme, you see!

Q You have mentioned that there are wizard schools all over the 
world. Is there any possibility that you may write about some of them?
JK: well, as you??ll know if you??ve read Goblet, I??ve already written 
about a couple of them
But a whole series, no, ?KI??m loyal to Hogwarts!

Q If Harry Potter hadn??t been such a success, what do you think you 
would be doing now?
JK: I would be teaching French to students in Edinburgh and still 
writing in my spare time

Q Are you looking forward to the film premiere?
JK I??m looking forward to seeing the film, very much indeed, but I 
never look forward to anything that involves loads of cameras pointed 
in my direction
I think I??ll go in disguise. Look out for the person in the purple 
turban, that??ll be me?K

Q Which character do you most enjoy writing for?
JK: Good question?K
Gilderoy Lockhart was loads of fun, but he was a bit of a one-joke 
character, and I think I did as much as I could with him
I love writing Hagrid and the Dursleys, too
Oh, and Fred and George?K
All of them, now I come to think of it?K

Q. Why did you choose ??never tickle a sleeping dragon?? as your motto?
JK: lots of schools have pointless mottos like ??reach for the stars?? 
or ??persevere and endure??
I wanted something useful?K

Q When you originally wrote the books, did you expect them to 
interest adults as well as kids?
JK: I didn??t really expect them to interest anyone much!
I didn??t think I was writing anything at all commercial
And that was certainly the opinion of all the publishers who turned 
me down
-?? I am smirking unbecomingly by the way

Q How much money does Harry have in the wizard??s bank?
JK: lots
Enough for all the things he will need at Hogwarts for the next three 
years

Q I love the idea of Harry getting older, do you thin you might be 
tempted to write books about Harry when he is working and has a 
family of his own?
JK: hmmmmmm?K yet another person who is convinced I??m not going to 
kill him off!
Where you people get the idea I??m soft-hearted I don??t know.
I??m joking
Or am I?

Q You said you started writing the first book in a coffee house in 
Edinburgh. Does that mean you keep going back there to write the 
others?
JK: Nope, can??t write in there any more, sadly
Because I was an idiot and gave loads of interviews in there
So of course lots of people come looking for me
So now I write in different cafes

Q Did you read the Narnia books when you were a child?
JK: yes I did and I like them
Though all the Christian symbolism utterly escaped me
It was only when I re-read them later in life that it struck me 
forcibly?K

Q Is there anything you regret about being an author?
JK: not about being an author, I love being an author
But I??d love a few days off form being well-known sometimes
Still, that will come!

Q Is JK Rowling your real name or is it your ??writes?? name?
JK: my real name is Joanne Rowling
My publishers wanted another initial, so I gave myself my favourite 
grandmother??s name as a middle name
??Kathleen??







From rosewoof at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 12 19:56:05 2001
From: rosewoof at earthlink.net (Rose Woofenden)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:56:05 -0800
Subject: Newbie!
Message-ID: <2.2.32.20010312195605.006e9458@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14177


Hello everyone! Just wanted to say 'hello' and introduce myself. *Waves*
Some of you might recognize my name from the POU list, or HPff, where I
occasionally post.

My name is Rose, I'm 15. I love HP, and all the discussions that go on. I
don't post very much, but I love to listen to all of the great things that
other people have to say. :-)

-Rose

        "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but
a habit." ~Aristotle




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 20:21:23 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:21:23 -0000
Subject: CHAT: Ron's birthday
In-Reply-To: <98j40m+o1s6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98jb43+q2to@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14178

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., andrea at n... wrote:
> At the ongoing chat, Jo has mentioned a room which Harry visits in 
> GoF, that has magical properties that he's not aware of yet. Are you 
> thinking Prefects'Bathroom like me?
> 
> BTW, Ron's birthday is on March 1st. A

Well, drat!  We just missed it--his 21st, too, assuming he's still 
alive (are 21st birthdays special in the wizarding world?)!  Couldn't 
she have made it NEXT week instead?

Amy Z
who would have baked a cake

 





From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Mar 12 21:07:54 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:07:54 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAT: Room with magical properties?
In-Reply-To: <98j40m+o1s6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEJADDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14179

How about Dumbledore's office?  Isn't GoF the first time he's actually been
in there?  Or does that matter -- it IS a room he visits in GoF.  If any
room has magical properties, it's D's office!

SML

======================================================
Evil Empress Notes on Fortress Construction:
#2.  My Command Center will have a heavily guarded room
at the bottom of a 100 story subterranean shaft that
will contain a sophisticated bus-sized computer with
a fake encoded plan, no external link, and no real function
whatsoever. The real command center will be a satellite-linked
laptop on a card-table with a folding chair at the top of the
elevator shaft, behind a door marked 'standpipe valves'
accessible through the unlocked janitor's closet.
======================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: andrea at noembromation.com.br [mailto:andrea at noembromation.com.br]
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:20 AM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAT: Room with magical properties?


At the ongoing chat, Jo has mentioned a room which Harry visits in
GoF, that has magical properties that he's not aware of yet. Are you
thinking Prefects'Bathroom like me?

BTW, Ron's birthday is on March 1st. And some Hogwarts teachers are
indeed married!

Andrea from Brazil



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From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Mar 12 21:28:37 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:28:37 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAT: Ron's birthday
In-Reply-To: <98jb43+q2to@eGroups.com>
References: <98j40m+o1s6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312131919.0304aec0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14180

At 08:21 PM 3/12/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>Well, drat!  We just missed it--his 21st, too, assuming he's still
>alive (are 21st birthdays special in the wizarding world?)!

My latest timeline-related theory is that the years are different
in the Hogwarts universe: It's 2001 here but 1996 there, so books
6, 7, and part of 5 "haven't happened yet"; and Ron just turned 16.

>Couldn't
>she have made it NEXT week instead?

It could still be celebrated... I think that if there is ever a full-fledged
Harry Potter club, analogous to the International Wizard of Oz Club,
character's birthdays should celebrated at the various nationwide
conventions.  (The IWOC celebrates Ozma's b-day every August 21.)

>Amy Z
>who would have baked a cake

                 -- Dave ( who would have sent Ron a Veela stripper-gram ;) )



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Mar 12 21:30:33 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:30:33 -0800
Subject: Married teachers (was: [HPforGrownups] CHAT: Room with magical properties?)
In-Reply-To: <98j40m+o1s6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010312132945.00bc5c20@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14181

At 06:20 PM 3/12/01 +0000, andrea at noembromation.com.br wrote:
>. And some Hogwarts teachers are
>indeed married!

And McGonnegal is the one who has the hottest sex with her spouse!  ;)



                                                 -- Dave




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Mon Mar 12 21:25:05 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:25:05 -0000
Subject: CHAT: Room with magical properties?
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOAEJADDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <98jerh+nsu7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14182

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> How about Dumbledore's office?  Isn't GoF the first time he's 
> actually been in there?  Or does that matter -- it IS a room he 
> visits in GoF.  If any room has magical properties, it's D's 
> office!
> 
> SML

Harry was in Professor Dumbledore's office already in CoS.  I am 
thinking about the room next to the Great Hall, where the champions 
assembled after having their names spit out from the goblet.





From bray.262 at osu.edu  Mon Mar 12 16:49:14 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:49:14 EST5EDT
Subject: wonderings....
Message-ID: <1B682E442C8@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14183

This might have been talked about before but....

With Dumbledore being so insistent that Harry returns to the 
Dursleys all the time....do you think there's some sort of deal here 
like Pete and the Potters' hiding place?  As long as Harry is at the 
Dursleys, Voldemort can't find him because Dumbledore has the 
secret hidden within him?

Or do I have that charm messed up and I'm going down a dead end?



Rachel Bray

"Excuse me, I don't like people just because they're 
handsome!" said Hermione indignantly.
Ron gave a loud false cough, which sounded oddly 
like "Lockhart!"




From flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 19:14:56 2001
From: flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com (flaearthgoddess at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:14:56 -0000
Subject: CHAT:  More info
In-Reply-To: <98j6e0+dstk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98j77g+od1j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14184

When she says Snape is 35-36, I think she means that the year she is 
presently writing about.. namely 1995, Harry's fifth year.  We know 
Harry was born in 1980.  Otherwise, Lily would have given birth to 
him when she was about fifteen years old, which seems very unlikely.  
So, if we were talking about Snape's age today in 2001, he would be 
41-42 (born 1959-1960). 

Michelle


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> \
> > Snape is 35 or 36 years old.
> 
> Oh boy, this is a biggie. We can now place the Marauders on the 
time 
> line. Okay, I'm going to be busy for a little while now. The heck 
> with work.
> 
> Are there going to be transcripts available for these chats? Can 
> someone give me the "official" description (ie such and such a 
> channel at this time on this day, this programme, etc.) I need to 
> create an entry for the Lexicon > sources of information.
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> which will have all this stuff added to it in the next day or so
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Mon Mar 12 23:10:03 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:10:03 -0000
Subject: have books in hand
In-Reply-To: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D0142BA21@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <98jl0b+mdr1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14185

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Tandy, Heidi" <heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...> 
wrote:
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> If dumbledore is alive tto writ book intros in 2001, then does that 
mean he
> survives the end of book 7?
> And if the charity is "in harry potter's name" and not memory, does 
that
> mean he does too?

I think it must do because he 'is a triffle reluctant to allow the 
book to be reprinted' (FB) which seems to suggest that he was 
consulted

YEAH!

storm




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Mon Mar 12 23:19:36 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:19:36 -0000
Subject: Chapter 34 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <98jli8+htg8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14186

Jeralyn wrote a succinct synopsis of Chapter 34 and then asked the 
following questions: 


> 
> 1.	Harry has beaten Voldemort on several occasions by now.  Why 
then did Voldemort untie him and give him back his wand?  Is he on 
drugs or just stupid?

Perhaps he has *some* sense of honor and realizes that simply killing 
Harry isn't sporting, much like Crouch/Moody jumped on Malfoy for 
trying to curse Harry when his back was turned.  Perhaps he 
thought, "The kid's injured, just saw his friend killed, and been 
cut.  There's no way he can defeat me."  Or maybe he just stupid.


> 4.	Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a 
mistake, Jo had worked with it and come up with a reason for James' 
emerging first?   

Yes, yes, most emphatically yes!  I came up with a reasonable 
explanation back in July of which I'm still rather fond--that Harry's 
innate magical abilities caused a reverse of mum and dad.  Even now 
when I read my 1st printing and know it's wrong, I still think of my 
little theory with fondness.

Trina





From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Mar 12 23:45:50 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:45:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR Live Chat 12-March-2001 - Transcript (incomplete)
References: <5f.1211ea69.27de7080@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003f01c0ab4e$93b22ba0$e8421e3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 14187


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: NicMitUK at aol.com 
  To: HPForGrownUps at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 1:33 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR Live Chat 12-March-2001 - Transcript (incomplete)


  Hi all

  >>Jo has just been chatting on the Comic Relief website.  I missed most of the 
  >>chat, but here is what I did get.  Full transcript should be available from 
  >>the BBC later.

  >>Nick
  ------------------

  >>Q - What or who would you send to Room 101
  >>JK - cats - I don't like them... and certain journalists..

  So that's why Mrs. Norris is such an odious character!  Am I the only one who feels sorry for her and Filch (especially when Mrs. Norris is found petrified in CoS)?

  Ender...who loves cats.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ladychitterly at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 13 00:05:42 2001
From: ladychitterly at yahoo.co.uk (ladychitterly at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:05:42 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's brand of EOS (Was Ch. 34); Dumbledore
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC076A@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <98jo8m+ukpv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14188

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:
> I wrote a bunch of stuff in Defence of Voldemort (ycch) and AmyZ 
wrote:
> > 
> > I mostly agree with you; I don't think V has done anything 
> > phenomenally dumb; we are just sensitive to any signs of Evil 
> > Overlord 
> > Syndrome because it's so overdone by authors who back themselves 
into 
> > a corner because they've made their Overlord so invincible, then 
have 
> > to have him do something foolish (usually due to arrogance) in 
order 
> > to bring him down.  Each thing he does "wrong" can be explained 
> > without him having EOS.  But there are a few mistakes that V 
> > does make 
> > that are more serious than I think you're estimating:
> > 
> > (1) his arrogance at age 16.  No, the grown-up V doesn't know 
about 
> > the events of CoS.  But if we are looking at his character 
> > overall, we 
> > can fairly include what his projected 16-year-old self did and 
say, 
> > "This guy has a pattern of letting his arrogance and ambition 
> > interfere with his judgment."
> > 
> Depending on the timeline, this diary was created shortly before he 
murdered
> his father. He's certainly arrogant, and he hasn't lost that brazen
> self-confidence, but I think it's overstating to say that a 16 year 
old
> who's power hungry will necessarily become a mad sorcerer (though 
he comes
> dangerously close to saying, "I am invincible!" in the Chamber 
scene).
> 
> > (2) his not anticipating being unable to touch Harry.  This isn't 
> > Quirrell's fault; how's he supposed to know?  It's his hands that 
> > burn, but it's Voldemort who is allergic to Harryskin.  And 
> > while this 
> > may be unexpected, it is part of the "ancient magic" that V 
really 
> > ought to study up on.  Which brings us to 
> > 
> > (3) his not anticipating the possibility of Lily's protecting 
Harry, 
> > however she did it.  Again, this was not something anyone 
> > predicted as 
> > far as we know, but V refers to it as "ancient magic," which 
implies 
> > that it is at least theoretically knowable by him or anyone who 
pays 
> > enough attention.  (I still lean toward the "it's pure love" 
theory, 
> > in which case "ancient magic" is a rather ironic term, like 
> > the Deeper 
> > Magic that causes Aslan to be resurrected in LWW.  Both authors 
are 
> > deliberately using the term "magic" to describe what is 
> > usually called 
> > "love," "Atonement," "sacrifice," or some other deep 
> > emotional/theological power.)
> > 
> 
> I think it's highly unlikely that every other mother of a small 
child in
> that era simply stepped aside when told to and chose their lives 
over the
> lives of their children. I think it's much more likely that he's 
encountered
> this kind of resistance before but never had any trouble overcoming 
it. For
> whatever reason, Lily and Harry were the exception. Even with a 
knowledge of
> "deep ancient magic," it's difficult to see how one would foresee 
this. It
> may be we don't have enough information about the DE's early 
activity to
> decide this yet either way. As for anticipating that his allergy 
would
> transfer to Quirrell, I don't have an explanation for that.


Okay, I've got one thing to say about 
> 
> > None of this adds up to a string of bad errors, but I think the 
truth 
> > is somewhere between "he's a typical EO who causes his own 
downfall 
> > through sheer stupidity or sniffing too much asphodel" and "he 
hasn't 
> > done anything careless."
> > 
> 
> Yeah, and I never thought I'd be the one defending the git. But he 
certainly
> hasn't struck me as the type to think up impossibly elaborate death
> scenarios and he's never yet mistreated Nagini, so at least he 
loves his
> pets. His minions do have those face-hiding masks, though....
> 
> > 
> > I look forward to reading your backstory (a Dumbledore fanfic?  
Rare 
> > event!).  Warning:  careful about your dates.  As far as we can 
> > determine, Dumbledore was giving Tom Riddle significant looks in 
the 
> > corridors of Hogwarts at the height of WWII.  It's almost 
definite 
> > that he was teaching at Hogwarts before 1945. 
> > 
> 
> I think this comment warrants a Homer Simpson "D'Oh!" Did I say 
spying
> during WWII? I meant WWI---he came out of retirement to fight in 
WWII. But I
> do think that the first CoS wasn't _exactly_ 50 years before Harry's
> CoS--the characters all say "about" 50 years ago. I think it's much 
more
> likely that the CoS was opened around 1940, thus giving even 
Dumbledore time
> to become enlisted in the fight against Grindlewald and defeating 
him in
> 1945.
> 
> Apologies to non-fan-fic readers. You can skip this paragraph. And 
it's not
> exactly a Dumbledore backstory, per se. See, I'm writing a fic that 
involves
> Dumbledore at a very young age and in the present, and to do that, 
I had to
> know things about his past. The story also involves Lucius Malfoy, 
so I had
> to know about his past as well...which means learning his father's 
story,
> intertwined with Dumbledore's and Riddle's.... Lucius decided to 
tell me all
> about it. In more detail than I really wanted to know. But perhaps 
some of
> the Grindlewald period of Dumbledore's life will work its way into 
the
> present story, as well...
> 
> 
> Gwen

Okay, I've got one comment to make. Gwen said that Voldemort had 
encountered the protection Lily had given Harry before, but there was 
something different about those two. Actually, I think it's pretty 
unlikely that he had encountered it. With most good wizarding 
families, Voldemort was out to get the parents. Quite a few of the 
children are alive and go to Hogwarts. But in Harry's case, it was 
different. Voldemort was out to get Harry; in fact, he says in SS/PS 
that Lily "needn't have died... she was trying to protect you..." We 
don't know why it was so nessesary to kill Harry, and Dumbledore 
wouldn't tell. 
"If there is one thing that Voldemort cannot understand, it is love."

Leslie




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar 13 00:40:29 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:40:29 -0000
Subject: Chapter 34: JKR & Richard III
Message-ID: <98jq9t+to77@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14189

(Oh, you who moderate betwixt the topical and off-topic, grant unto 
me this boon that my brief but instructive lesson may be perused at 
the Yahoo Group with a thousand and forty-two readers, not the one 
with all the dumb Tom Swift jokes)

OK, I'm switching over to my Professor Binns' mode now: The 
similarity between the "Priori Incantatem" Chapter of GoF and
Richard III's ghostly visitors has often been remarked upon. I 
thought it might be instructive to look at some of the differences in 
these two scenes as well.

Just to summarize the scene in Shakespeare (skip to the next 
paragraph if you already know it, or go to 
http://tech-two.mit.edu/Shakespeare/richardiii/richardiii.5.3.html
   Richard III, who has hacked his way to the English throne in a 
most  Voldemortian manner, leads his army to Hastings as he prepares 
to meet the rebel forces led by the Earl of Richmond. .  On opposite 
sides of the stage, each leader rallies his troops, and then retires 
for the night. On the eve of the battle Richard has a dream in which 
the ghosts of his several victims march in to cast their 
condemnations upon him and to bestow their blessings upon Richmond.  
Upon waking, Richard's thoughts are full of guilt and foreboding.
On the next day's battle, his army is defeated, and Richard is
killed by Richmond, who will now reign as Henry VII. 

(1)	One major difference is that in Shakespeare, the apparitions 
appear in Richard's dream; in JKR, this is a real, though 
nightmarish, event. 

(2)  Shakespeare has Richard's victims in chronological order
(from first to final victim); JKR intended to do this in reverse 
(from latest on back), but of course got the sequence a bit 
confused.  (A Point for  Shakespeare)

(3) In JKR's narrative, both Harry and Voldemort are fully
developed characters. But while Richard III is one of Shakespeare's 
most brilliantly realized creations,  the characterization Richmond 
is constructed from the thinnest and dullest of cardboard, being 
merely a very very dull Good Guy. This makes a great difference in 
our reactions to the ghosts'appearence.  We are very interested in
what the ghosts have to say to both Harry and Voldemort, and we very 
interested in what Richard's ghosts have to say to him; but we
could care less what they have to say to Richmond.  Every version I've
seen of Richard III (both stage and screen) has always cut the 
ghosts' speeches to Richmond, and with good reason.  (A Point for JKR)

(4) We see Voldemort react to the ghosts with  fear. Although we see 
no more of him after Harry escapes, we can easily imagine that his 
emotions would turn thereafter to humiliation, rage, hatred, 
increased thirst for vengeance, etc.  The last thing we would expect 
from Voldy would be an attack of conscience, and a sudden (if 
temporary) return of moral clarity, which is of course Richard's 
reaction.  

My conscience hath a thousand several tongues,
And every tongue brings in a several tale,
And every tale condemns me for a villain.

For a long time, it seemed to me that this manifestation of 
conscience in seemingly conscience-less man was an improbable 
contrivance on Shakespeare's part, but I made the mistake of that 
many others have as well: reading Richard III as an independent work, 
rather than the final play of a four-part cycle which chronicles the 
War of the Roses. (the first three parts being the three Henry VI 
plays). When we first meet Richard as a young boy in 2 Henry VI, he 
is presented a dutiful and attentive son, and as a loyal and devoted 
brother.  The close-knit  bonds and the bantering between Richard and 
his brothers Edward and Clarence throughout these plays are as 
enjoyable as the exchanges between the Weasleys.  Richard does not 
reveal his Evil Overlord aspirations until midway through in 3 Henry 
VI (Act III, Scene III):

I'll slay more gazers than the basilisk (!)
I'll play the orator as well as Nestor,
Deceive more slily than Ulysses could,
And, like a Sinon, take another Troy.
I can add colours to the chameleon,
Change shapes with Proteus for advantages,
And set the murderous Machiavel to school.
Can I do this, and cannot get a crown?
Tut, were it farther off, I'll pluck it down

(interestingly, the real Machiavelli, born in 1469, was still a child 
when these events were unfolding) Assuming that we came to the play 
without prior knowledge of the characters and the history,
Richard's declaration comes as a complete surprise.  So Richard's 
attack of conscience at the end is well-founded: the sight of the 
ghosts puts him briefly back in touch with the kinder loyaler part of 
his spirit that he was forced to suppress in order to satisfy his 
royal ambitions. 

(5) Voldemort v. Harry is a stark contest between Evil and Good. 
Although Richard III may seem to play that way, it's more like
Smart v. Dumb. We  root for Richard to succeed in the same way as we 
root for Hannibal Lecter. Also, the three Henry VI plays show that no 
one on either side of the War of the Roses is innocent.  Richard 
seems to treat the deposed Queen Margaret with a contemptible 
meanness (I,iii), but after reading her savage torture and execution 
of Richard's father in 3 Henry VI, (I,iv) I marveled that Richard
was able to be as civil as he was. 

  - CMC

http://www.shakespeare.handshake.de/





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar 13 01:00:01 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:00:01 -0000
Subject: Albus Dumbledore (character sketch)
In-Reply-To: <98ij8n+qg1s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98jreh+uvam@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14190

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> > Questions

> > 
> I disagree completely with this interpretation of Dumbledore. 
Unlike 
> Voldemort he does not view his fellow human beings as chess pawns. 
I 
> do not think he views Harry as an insturment at all. He may have 
> inklings as to Harry's destiny, he obviously has knowledge and 
wisdom 
> that he doesn't share, but that doesn't make him "coldly 
> calculating". I see his secrecy as arising from the same kind of 
> logic regarding traveling back in time. You have to be very careful 
> with what you know to avoid changing what shouldn't be changed. 
> 
I don't mean to advance a "moral equivalency" argument suggesting 
that there is no real difference between Dumbledore and Voldy. Voldy 
works for his own selfish advantages while Dumbledore works for the 
good of the greater community. And I believe that he feels a genuine 
love for Harry and the other denizens of Hogwarts.

At the same time, there is a calculating, ruthless side to Dumbledore 
that I think is best illuminated at the beginning of the story, when 
he chooses not to reveal why Harry must be raised by the cruel and 
petty Dursleys. Dumbledore strongly downplays their Muggleness, not 
sharing with either McGonagall or Hagrid the true nature of that 
family. When Hagrid finally meets Harry, he is clearly shocked - he 
expected Harry to be at least somewhat informed on his wizard 
heritage (and just who was responsible for not informing him 
accurately?)

 At Clinton Rossiter wrote in his study on Tne American Presidency, 
deviousness is not a quality we openly admire, and too much of it is 
likely to backfire, but it is nevertheless an indispensable quality 
for any successful political (not necessarily spiritual) leader. 

   - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar 13 01:05:13 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:05:13 -0000
Subject: J.K Rowling appears on Blue Peter!!!
In-Reply-To: <002c01c0aa7d$7b449520$0200a8c0@jonnyold>
Message-ID: <98jro9+ibf2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14191

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Ben Leigh" <ben.leigh at c...> wrote:
> Hello everyone!
> 
> Guess what? J.K Rowling will be appearing on a Children's tv 
programme to
> answer viewers questions. I'll post a report on Tuesday since the 
programme
> is beinf shown on Monday.
> 

Does the woman do nothing more these days than to appear on TV shows 
and online chat rooms? Doesn't she know an impatient world awaits 
Volume Five?

JKR needs to go into recluse mode until the thing is finished. I say 
we Fed Ex her some Polyjuice Potion, along with a lock of hair from 
either Thomas Pynchon or JD Salinger. 

   - CMC




From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Tue Mar 13 01:39:03 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:39:03 -0000
Subject: Winerip criticism of PS/SS
In-Reply-To: <98iuvk+3skl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98jtnn+j0gv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14192

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> I just read a 1999 review of PS/SS by Michael Winerip, for the New 
> York Times.  It was generally extremely positive.  The following 
> criticism really got me thinking, though:
> 
> >Most noticeably, Hagrid, the gentle
> > giant of a groundskeeper who has selflessly protected Harry over 
and 
> >over, suddenly turns so selfish he is willing to let Harry be
> > punished for something that is Hagrid's fault. That's not the 
Hagrid 
> >I'd come to know. 

<snip> 

> On the other hand, maybe that whole interlude is completely 
> unnecessary, since I didn't pick up on the problem in all this time 
> (the ridiculously dangerous punishment bothered me, but not the 
> Hagrid problem).  Did anyone else?

1. I think thatHagrid fessing up would have been pointless as you 
suggest.

2. THe punishment seems to fit the 'crime' IMO. I don't think they 
are in any real danger - the forest itself may have dangerous 
creatures in it but they are safe in the company of Hagrid and Fang 
(who have lots of experance in the forest). The kids fear the forest 
as they have no experance of it and its creatures.  

However I think they are much more likely to get hurt wondering 
around the castle without supervison at night (a place they feel safe 
in because they know it's day time face.) 

the punsihment is designed to scare them silly and I suspect the 
point about familiarity and seeing danger is lost on them. Never 
mind. 

I also suspect that this post is not very lucid so I'll stop now. <g>

storm
> 
> You can read the whole review at 
http://www.hpgalleries.com/a110.htm.
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
>    "Dumbledore, you know what that woman is?"
>    "I consider her to be a very able Headmistress--
>  and an excellent dancer," said Dumbledore quietly.
>                        -HP and the Goblet of Fire
> -----------------------------------------------------




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Mar 13 02:11:17 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:11:17 -0000
Subject: Albus Dumbledore (character sketch)
In-Reply-To: <98hfnb+q5m1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98jvk5+8vh3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14193

Hi!

Excellent post about Albus Dumbledore!  Of course, I have my own 
thoughts on the matter, as I have spent many an hour thinking about 
Dumbdedore...
> 

> 
> 1. We all remember the chilling scene in GoF, when Barty Crouch Jr. 
> explains to Harry how each of his actions as Moody was coldly 
> calculated to advance Voldemort's agenda.  Will there someday be a 
> parallel scene where Dumbledore will explain his own coldly 
> calculated behind-the-scenes maneuverings to Harry?

Gosh, I just don't see Dumbledore that way at all.  Besides, aren't we 
making asumptions by describing him as cold and calculating?  I am a 
strong supporter of Dumbledore, but I don't think he knows everything!  
I believe that Dumbledore likes to give people the chance to learn on 
their own whenever possible, and Harry, more than anyone, can 
capitalize on that.  So far, he is one of Dumbledore's biggest success 
stories. 
> 

> 
> 3.Will Dumbledore survive the series? Will he hang in there until 
> Book Seven, or perish earlier? Will be die with harness on his back, 
> like good king Macbeth, or peacefully in his bed?

Well, Macbeth (in my opinion) sure wasn't good by the time he died, 
but I don't see Dumbledore as insane either.  Yes, unfortunately, I 
think he will die.  Harry notices in GoF that Dumbledore is looking 
quite old - JKR wouldn't make a comment like that if she didn't want 
us to notice... and get worried.  I think that Harry will (if he 
doesn't now) rival Dumbledore's powers.  There may be no need for 
Dumbledore to stay alive forever...
> 
> 
> 5. Voldy loves nothing more than to talk about himself (see Chapters 
> 32-34 in GoF).   By contrast, most of what we know of Dumbledore's 
> past was on the back of a trading card.  What is the significance of 
> Dumbledore's consistent refusal to talk about himself?

I suppose Dumbledore is as humble (just listen to the sound of his 
name) as Voldie is self centered.  He is also a seemingly private 
person - he certainly doesn't have a big mouth.  I kind of like the 
mystery surrounding him, you know?
> 
> 
> 7. In the passage describing his physical appearance, it is said 
that 
> Dumbledore's  nose looks to have broken twice. Did Dumbledore play 
> Quidditch as a younger man?

Should I care about that?  Because I don't.  
> 
> 8. Did Dumbledore really forget to shut the door on the Pensive? Or 
> did he mean for Harry to find it?  Does the flashback to the Crouch 
> trial suggest that Dumbledore was considering the possibility that 
> Crouch might be lurking about?

Good one!  I didn't think about that until now.  Dumbledore, while not 
perfect, does not seem particularly forgetful.  I think he 
deliberately left the cloak for Harry, and already seemed to know 
about Buckbeak, even though he didn't yet hint to H & H about how to 
rescue him.  I think Dumbledore suspects everyone and no one at the 
same time, if that makes sense. 
> 
> 
> 10. Dumbledore tells Harry that the one thing Voldemort cannot 
> understand is love.  Does Dumbledore understand love?  How does he 
> demonstrate (or fail to demonstrate) it?

Sure, he understands love.  I think, in a way, he IS love.  He is the 
driving force behind Harry's survival, supports Hagrid in his time of 
need and isolation, gives Lupin a chance to prove what an excellent 
teacher he really is, and believes children (gasp!) when no one else 
would.  Dumbledore to me is the personification of GOOD and that, to 
me, is love. 
> 
> 11. Does Dumbledore really have a brother Aberforth? And how does 
> cast an inappropriate charm on a goat? (And please remember this a 
> family-oriented chat group).

I sure hope he has a brother like that! 




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 13 02:13:01 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:13:01 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAT: Room with magical properties? Dumbledore & McGonagall married?
References: <79.116cd29f.27de6e9d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c0ab63$225ce840$3014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14194

About the magical room, hmmm...could be the prefect's bathroom, although
there are a bunch of rooms in Hogwarts.

I just knew that Dumbledore and McGonagall were married! : )

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor

I think it would be boring for the magic to continue in the prefects
bathroom. I think it will be a different room than we have seen so far.
Although, the prefects bathroom was a pretty neat room. I think if I were
prefect, I would go around much of the time with "pruney" skin.

Dumbledore and McGonagall are married? Did she actually SAY that? :))
Doreen






From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 02:22:55 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:22:55 -0000
Subject: Albus Dumbledore (character sketch)
In-Reply-To: <98jreh+uvam@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98k09v+q1sf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14195

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> 
> At the same time, there is a calculating, ruthless side to 
Dumbledore 
> that I think is best illuminated at the beginning of the story, 
when 
> he chooses not to reveal why Harry must be raised by the cruel and 
> petty Dursleys. Dumbledore strongly downplays their Muggleness, not 
> sharing with either McGonagall or Hagrid the true nature of that 
> family. When Hagrid finally meets Harry, he is clearly shocked - he 
> expected Harry to be at least somewhat informed on his wizard 
> heritage (and just who was responsible for not informing him 
> accurately?)

Hmmm. I think this is something to watch, most definitely. On the 
other hand, some of the "deviousness" incidents may have just been 
coincidence, e.g. the Pensieve. 

> 
>  At Clinton Rossiter wrote in his study on Tne American Presidency, 
> deviousness is not a quality we openly admire, and too much of it 
is 
> likely to backfire, but it is nevertheless an indispensable quality 
> for any successful political (not necessarily spiritual) leader. 

Goodness, CMC, you're becoming a Slytherin defender. :) I think that 
Dumbledore is not as disengaged as it seems, and that he doesn't 
broadcast it is not necessarily a bad thing. 

Charmian





From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 02:26:35 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:26:35 -0000
Subject: Some more SPOILERS: QTA, FBWFT
In-Reply-To: <98j7ul+m91p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98k0gr+8omf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14196

> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> 
> F
> O
> R
> 
> N
> E
> W
> 
> B
> O
> O
> K
> S
> ----------

Ladies and gentlemen, we have an exchange rate!  Right below the UPC 
on the back cover;
 $3.99 US= 14 Sickles 3 Knuts. I take it there's something similar to 
this on the UK editions? Anyone with better math skills than me want 
to take a crack at this?
 
 Harry really is generous, letting Ron continue to use his book after 
Ron keeps marking it up like that, lol!








From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 13 02:23:08 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:23:08 -0600
Subject: Chapter 34 Summary
References: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <3AAD848C.962CFF72@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14197

Hi --

Lots of great meaty stuff to reply to in the last 24 hrs --

Great Ch 34 summary Voicelady (and intriguing questions)!  :--)

> 3.      We know that the Avada Kedavra curse is associated with green light.  But what was the symbolism, if any, of the red light streaming from Harrys wand?

I've been wondering if there's any symbolism to the things that come out of the Champions' wands when Mr. Ollivander "tests" them before the First Task.  Orchids from Fleur's wand, silver smoke rings from Cedric's wand (which has a core of unicorn tail ... like Ron's wand, yes?), small twittering birds from Krum's wand and wine from Harry's wand.

It doesn't say ... but I imagined the wine coming from Harry's wand to be a rich Cabernet.  <g>  Red in other words.  Someone else noted that when Harry first picks up his wand in SS, it emits red sparks.

I think there must be some meaning with red & green in this series, but darn if I can come up with anything that makes much sense.  Harry has green eyes; Voldemort has red eyes (how weird is *that*!).  Green light seems to be associated with evil curses; red light/red things seem to emit frequently from Harry's wand.  The Dark Mark is a green skull.  Hmmm .....

> 4.      Do you wish that, even though the original wand order was a mistake, Jo had worked with it and come up with a reason for James emerging first?

Yes!!  I guess that goes without saying since I've now given interviews on the subject.  <g>  I still prefer Trina's theory that Harry desperately needed to see his father first that night & so he magically caused the images to reverse themselves within the wand.  That's my favorite.  It ties in well with my belief that Harry is associating more & more with his father, especially in times of danger.  He now knows his father's best friends & has developed a close relationship with both Lupin & Black.  His patronus takes the form of his father's animagus being.  Dumbledore tells him that his
father continues to live within him and "shows himself most plainly when you [Harry] have need of him."  This says to me that Harry will thereafter most likely think of his father in times of danger (so I don't buy the argument of the publishers that Harry thinks of his mother at times of danger because of her sacrifice for him).  Plus, the text (corrected & uncorrected) quite clearly indicates that he was thinking of his father that night and that he was *not* thinking of his mother.  So ... the rewrite lacks emotional resonance for me and doesn't make any sense (given that they didn't change
his earlier thoughts in that chapter).

Although I see the merit in the position advanced that only JKR can know whether the "uncorrected" version would cause problems for later plot points & details, I prefer the uncorrected version .... and I do wish that she'd either (a) found a way to creatively explain it in a later book, or (b) less palatable to me, fessed up that it was an error and that her publishers were correcting later printings.  I don't like the way the error was corrected in secret, and it seems that it hasn't been handled properly in any case since some of our members have encountered later printings (printings
appearing *after* the correction was made) that are without the correction as well.  Same thing has happened with the ancestor/descendant thing.  They can't seem to make a correction that *stays* a correction (the original error keeps popping back up again).

> 5.      Do you think well see Cedrics ghost at Hogwarts now?

I tend to agree with those who've said he most likely doesn't fulfill JKR's stated requirements for being a ghost.  Although I'm intrigued that maybe he wasn't all that happy at death (Doreen I think argued this?).  His life was certainly not complete.  But, neither were the lives of the Potters, and they are supposedly not ghosts either (right??).

Penny





From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 13 02:39:17 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:39:17 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR Live Chat 12-March-2001 - Room 101 and Mrs. Norris
References: <5f.1211ea69.27de7080@aol.com> <003f01c0ab4e$93b22ba0$e8421e3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <009401c0ab66$d077cd20$3014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14198


 >>Jo has just been chatting on the Comic Relief website.  I missed most of
the
  >>chat, but here is what I did get.  Full transcript should be available
from
  >>the BBC later.

  >>Nick
  ------------------

  >>Q - What or who would you send to Room 101
  >>JK - cats - I don't like them... and certain journalists..

I would send my boss there when he bugs me to work on my day off.

  So that's why Mrs. Norris is such an odious character!  Am I the only one
who feels sorry for her and Filch (especially when Mrs. Norris is found
petrified in CoS)?

  Ender...who loves cats.

 I love cats too. I have a cat; but some cats just bring loathing on
themselves. I have a cat from hell, who insists that you drop what you are
doing and pet her. When she has had enough stroking, though, she will hiss
and bite you. Also, as you walk past her, she will reach up and try to snag
you as you go by. The dogs are afraid of her. They run and hide when she
prowls about the house.
I think Mrs. Norris is a nasty feline. I wonder whom she was named after?
Filch's old girlfriend, maybe? Any ideas?
Doreen






From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Tue Mar 13 02:44:50 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:44:50 -0000
Subject: Some more SPOILERS: QTA, FBWFT
In-Reply-To: <98k0gr+8omf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98k1j2+6hh8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14199

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., nlpnt at y... wrote:
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > S
> > 
> > F
> > O
> > R
> > 
> > N
> > E
> > W
> > 
> > B
> > O
> > O
> > K
> > S
> > ----------
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, we have an exchange rate!  Right below the 
> UPC on the back cover; $3.99 US= 14 Sickles 3 Knuts. I take it 
> there's something similar to this on the UK editions? Anyone with 
> better math skills than me want to take a crack at this?

Yes, there is a similar thing on the British editions - apparently 
the exchange rate bewteen the exchangerates Galleon/? and Galleon/$ 
is not wholly consistent between the direct exchange-rate  ?/$ - this 
is not unheard of however.  Take a look in the foreword, however - 
there are numbers there that tell a different tale than the backside 
of the book.

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 02:51:39 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 02:51:39 -0000
Subject: The Schoolbooks - Chat- Vanity Fair
In-Reply-To: <98jro9+ibf2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98k1vr+slsr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14200

Caius wrote:
"Does the woman do nothing more these days than to appear on TV shows 
and online chat rooms? Doesn't she know an impatient world awaits 
Volume Five? JKR needs to go into recluse mode until the thing is 
finished. I say we Fed Ex her some Polyjuice Potion, along with a 
lock of hair from either Thomas Pynchon or JD Salinger." 

--I assume that you meant this as a joke. I agree that she REALLY 
needs to hurry with book five, but I think today is a fair exception 
since it was for charity. Tomorrow however...

*loud pounding on door*
Jo's voice-"Hey let me out of here! 
Me-"You don't come out till book five's done"
Jo-"Where's the key?"
*innocent look* 
Me-"Key? What Key?" :-)

I got the School books today, and I must say they are cute and 
extremely funny. Rush out and get them today! More to come later...

The chat sounds very informative. There were still the same-ol'-same-
ol' type questions but not as many as usual, I didn't think. None of 
my questions got through. Alas I shall wait until the next one. 

According to JKR we do know Hermione's feelings from GoF, at least 
towards Ron. (hmmm) What does this mean. I still don't see that 
Hermione has shown, or not shown any definative feelings towards 
little Ronnekins. I also don't how to use this in a H/H argument. Is 
it possible? Penny, Ebony Help!

Now that we know Snapes age we can make that Definitive timeline. 
He's at least five years younger than I would have hypothesied and 
puts Lily having Harry close after their leaving Hogwarts. It also 
means that (assuming they were married when Harry was conceived) it 
was no less than a year after "Graduation" that James and Lily were 
married. 

I also got Vanity Fair's April issue today. The picture of Dan as 
Harry is wonderful and IMO much better than the internet picture. It 
is a full spread and the stone staircase takes up much of the photo. 
You can see Harry's wand next to what looks like a Florentine leather 
Journal next to Harry, which most of you have probably already 
noticed. It's close to the back and there is also a picture of John 
Williams...Go on Buy it, you know you want to...

The Following is a Spoiler for QttA (Quidditch through the Ages) 
only...

G
E
T

O
F
F 

T
H
E

C
O
M
P
U
T
E
R

&

R
E
A
D

On the first page it has a check out record for QttA. I thought it 
was extremely cute that books went on sale on 12 March Harry was the 
last to check it out, due back on 11 March!! 

Was the Snitch part not too cute :-) 
These are books are just to cute!

Scott







From natabat at crosswinds.net  Tue Mar 13 03:09:11 2001
From: natabat at crosswinds.net (Natalie)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:09:11 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILERS: QTA, FBWFT and exchange rates (long and mathematical)
References: <98k0gr+8omf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003001c0ab6a$fad63800$0201a8c0@hp>

No: HPFGUIDX 14201


----- Original Message -----
From: <nlpnt at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:26 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some more SPOILERS: QTA, FBWFT


> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > S
> >
> > F
> > O
> > R
> >
> > N
> > E
> > W
> >
> > B
> > O
> > O
> > K
> > S
> > ----------
>
> Ladies and gentlemen, we have an exchange rate!  Right below the UPC
> on the back cover;
>  $3.99 US= 14 Sickles 3 Knuts. I take it there's something similar to
> this on the UK editions? Anyone with better math skills than me want
> to take a crack at this?

Also, she said in chat that a galleon was about equal to 5 pounds, right?
Which is about US$7.32. Since I'm American, I'll be working with
dollars...hope no one minds...<g>

I'd really like to do this with my graphing calculator, but since I haven't
had batteries for it in a couple of months, I guess I'll just have to deal,
huh?

We have 3 separate equations to check against.

14S 3K = $3.99 (UPC)
(this is the one I'm going to assume is least valid...if I get the same
results as the first time I did this, you'll see why)

34,000,872G 14S 7K = app $250,000,000 (Albus' intro)

1G = $7.32 (chat)

Now, let's make everything into Knuts...it'll give us some large numbers for
the second one, but that's the way I want to do it.

17S/G, 29K/S which means 493K/G


409K = $3.99
16762430309K = $250,000,000
493K = $7.32

So...
1K = $0.0097555
1K = $0.0149143
1K = $0.0148479

The last two are pretty close...let's average it.

1K = $0.0148811

Therefore:
1S = $0.4315519
1G = $7.3363823

Now, those original wizard prices back into to Muggle numbers to see how
they match.

14S 3K = $6.0863699 (should be $3.99 - way off!)
34,000,872G 14S 7K = $249,443,401.6712599 (should be $250 mill. - much
closer!)
1G = $7.3363823 (should be $7.32-almost perfect!)

So, a Knut is about $0.015, a Sickle is about $0.43, and a galleon is about
$7.33.

Should I price some goods now? Why not...I'm bored. (wizarding prices from,
where else, the Lexicon!)

new wand from Ollivanders: 7 Galleons (SS5)
$51.31

dragon liver: 17 Sickles per ounce (SS5)
$7.31

prize from Daily Prophet drawing: 700 Galleons (PA1)
$5,131

prize for winning the Triwizard Tournament: 1000 Galleons (GF)
$7,330

amount Hermione had set aside to buy herself a birthday present: 10 Galleons
$73.30

unicorn horn: 21 Galleons (SS5)
$153.93

beetle's eyes: 5 Knuts per scoop (SS5)
$0.075 (which would be 8 cents, I guess)

pile of candy from the cart on the Hogwarts Express: 11 Sickles, 7 Knuts
$4.84

Omnioculars: 10 Galleons (GF7)
$73.30

amount Arthur Weasley bets on the World Quidditch Cup match: 1 Galleon
$7.33

amount Fred and George bet (their whole savings): 37 Glns, 15 Skls, 3 Knts
$282.59

amount Ludo said he'd pay for a rubber chicken wand: 5 Galleons
$36.65

copy of the Daily Prophet: 5 Knuts (SS5)
$0.08

fare on the Knight Bus from Little Winging to London: 11 Sickles (PA3)
$4.73

price of hot chocolate on the Knight Bus: 2 Sickles (PA3)
$0.86

price of a hot water bottle and toothbrush in the color of your choice: 2
Sickles (PA3)
$0.86


All of that seems pretty reasonable, which is a good thing...And I'm sure
you all really needed to read that, huh? <g>

Natalie
natabat at flashmail.com / natabat at crosswinds.net
http://www.natabat.com
-----
"In Mexico we have a word for sushi: bait."
- Jose Simon





From margdean at erols.com  Tue Mar 13 03:32:30 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:32:30 -0500
Subject: Mrs. Norris
References: <5f.1211ea69.27de7080@aol.com> <003f01c0ab4e$93b22ba0$e8421e3f@satellite> <009401c0ab66$d077cd20$3014a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3AAD94CD.52BBA805@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14202

Doreen wrote:

> I think Mrs. Norris is a nasty feline. I wonder whom she was named after?
> Filch's old girlfriend, maybe? Any ideas?

Well, JKR almost certainly named her after a similarly nasty
character in Jane Austen's MANSFIELD PARK (she's said Austen is
one of her favorite authors).  That doesn't, of course, answer
the question of why =Filch= named her that.  Maybe he reads
Austen too, and particularly identified with that character.  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Tue Mar 13 03:20:31 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 03:20:31 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: QTA, FBWFT and exchange rates (long and mathematical)
In-Reply-To: <003001c0ab6a$fad63800$0201a8c0@hp>
Message-ID: <98k3lv+gk8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14203

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" <natabat at c...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <nlpnt at y...>
> To: <HPforGrownups at y...>
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:26 PM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some more SPOILERS: QTA, FBWFT
> 
> 
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > S
> > >
> > > F
> > > O
> > > R
> > >
> > > N
> > > E
> > > W
> > >
> > > B
> > > O
> > > O
> > > K
> > > S
> > > ----------
> >
> > Ladies and gentlemen, we have an exchange rate!  Right below the 
UPC
> > on the back cover;
> >  $3.99 US= 14 Sickles 3 Knuts. I take it there's something 
similar to
> > this on the UK editions? 

Natalie - what an amazing post!

The Aust ed has 14 s, 3 K too as the purchase price (AUD 5.95) so I 
think this is consistent across all editions and should *not* be used 
to work out the exchange rate. Instead I suggest the amount she says 
in chat today OR the amount cited by Dumbledore as raised by Comic 
Relief (given in both Pounds and Galleons to the last Knut in FB) be 
used. One could then (if one was so inclined) convert from pounds to 
US dollars then back to Gallons. 


storm




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 13 02:57:41 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:57:41 -0600
Subject: Albus Dumbledore (character sketch)
References: <98hfnb+q5m1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AAD8CA4.BE91173F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14204

Hi everyone --

I've snipped Caius' EXCELLENT summary of Dumbledore --
thought-provoking, thorough & very well-written.  Wow!  I had planned to
trim my Hermione FAQ to serve as her character summary in a few weeks
but perhaps I'll not trim too much since everyone seems to be enjoying
the longer summary.

Okay ... on to the questions:

> 1. We all remember the chilling scene in GoF, when Barty Crouch Jr.
> explains to Harry how each of his actions as Moody was coldly
> calculated to advance Voldemort's agenda.  Will there someday be a
> parallel scene where Dumbledore will explain his own coldly
> calculated behind-the-scenes maneuverings to Harry?

At first I wondered if you were alluding to the whole "gleam in his eye
may mean Dumbledore is really evil" discussions we've had in the past,
but then I re-read this a few times & looked at everyone else's
comments.  I was one of the only ones in previous discussions to say
that I don't think that Dumbledore is pure white without the slightest
fleck of gray in his character on a hypothetical continuum of white
(pure goodness) to black (pure unadulterated evil).  I think he's
complex.  Don't misunderstand: I think he's good ... just not "pure
unblemished" good.

Other seem to interpret your question as whether Dumbledore is "coldly"
manipulating Harry.  I agree with those members that he is not doing
that.  He is manipulating Harry IMO.

But, making cold calculating decisions is different than making
decisions based on coldly calculated motives.  I think he has the best
of intentions, but I think he's been making some calculated decisions as
far as what to let Harry be exposed to and learn about and when.  I
think he knows considerably more than his exterior persona would
suggest.  And, I think he's been manipulating events since November 1981
when he placed Harry with the Dursleys.  I think his motives will all
turn out, when revealed by him or by others later, to be good (and I
think it's likely that his decisions will be shown to have been wise).
But, I think there's been some devious calculating going on inside the
old codger's head.

> 3.Will Dumbledore survive the series? Will he hang in there until
> Book Seven, or perish earlier? Will be die with harness on his back,
> like good king Macbeth, or peacefully in his bed?

My bet is that he will die at the end of Book 6 -- possibly sometime in
Book 7.  But, I do think Harry will be left to face the final
confrontation with Voldemort without his mentor.

> 4. If Dumbledore dies, who will succeed him as Headmaster?

As someone noted, I think that may depend alot on the circumstances of
his death & the status of Hogwarts at that time (in the midst of a huge
war).  Hard to predict those circumstances, but in general, I think
Minerva McGonagall is being groomed to be his successor.  I do find
Rebecca's arguments for Snape to be compelling in some respects, but my
bet is still on McGonagall at the moment.

> 5. Voldy loves nothing more than to talk about himself (see Chapters
> 32-34 in GoF).   By contrast, most of what we know of Dumbledore's
> past was on the back of a trading card.  What is the significance of
> Dumbledore's consistent refusal to talk about himself?

I think being a mystery suits his purposes .... I think he rather enjoys
that people don't really have him figured out.

Gwen said:

> > 6. How did Dumbledore defeat the Dark Wizard Grindelwald?
> >
> I'm so glad you asked. I'm working on a backstory that will address my take
> on this, but I believe that there's no question Grindelwald was working
> with Hitler. I think that in both cases, the senior officers realized they were
> loose canons and conspired to do something about it. In the Muggle camp,
> the attempt on Hitler's life failed. On the Wizard side, it succeeded, and the
> disloyal officers (including a very young Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy's
> father) were able to set Grindlewald up to run into Dumbledore and his team
> of wizards who were on their way to besiege him. Without the assistance of
> his lieutenants, Grindlewald was forced to duel on his own. And Dumblydore
> kicked butt, but I don't think he's proud of it, in retrospect (see above).
> Maybe Olympe was part of the French Resistance wizards who helped him
> infiltrate the front to get to Grindy. (This also helps reinforce the
> Malfoy family prestige among wizards.)
>
Gwen: I can't wait to read your fanfic!  I've been very very intrigued
by the parallels to WWII in this series (I'm a bit of a WWII buff in
fact).  If you're not aware, we've had a fair number of discussions in
the past on this topic.  You might want to check out the Archives from
our former Yahoo Club days (see the home page for the URL) as well as
our current message archives.  We had a member who used to be a regular
poster (Brooks) who was writing a similar fanfic (I beta-read the first
few chapters for him but then he's disappeared & never finished the fic
as far as I know).  Anyway .... be sure to post the ff.net reference to
our Announcements Group when you write it (or each chapter)!!

Back to CMC's questions:

> 8. Did Dumbledore really forget to shut the door on the Pensive? Or
> did he mean for Harry to find it?  Does the flashback to the Crouch
> trial suggest that Dumbledore was considering the possibility that
> Crouch might be lurking about?

If you believe that he meant for Harry to find it, you must also believe
that Dumbledore knew Harry would be coming to his office (or that in the
space of time beginning with Harry coming into the office & him leaving
with Fudge et al, he had enough time to decide to leave it open in hopes
Harry would find it).  I don't think he was altogether surprised that
Harry did find it ... but I don't think he could have intended that
discovery (I do think he intended Harry to find the Mirror of Erised
though).  If he knew that Harry was coming to his office ... he would
know "why" he was coming, right?  I don't think even the seemingly
all-knowing Dumbledore has that much knowledge.

I think maybe Dumbledore was just trying to make sense of the whole DE
post-Voldy I mess .... Kakaroff, Bagman, Crouch Jr., Snape .... he was
trying to see if there could be some connection with those individuals &
current troubling events, perhaps?

> 10. Dumbledore tells Harry that the one thing Voldemort cannot
> understand is love.  Does Dumbledore understand love?  How does he
> demonstrate (or fail to demonstrate) it?

I think he understands & feels love.  If he didn't understand love, it
would be difficult for him to make his memorable summations at the end
of each book (how could he explain Lily's sacrifice and Harry's
connection with his father).

Thanks again for such a wonderful summary!!

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 03:50:57 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 03:50:57 -0000
Subject: Chapter Nine
Message-ID: <98k5f1+m75b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14205

In today's chat Jo said that the chapter of GoF which was hell to 
write was Chapter nine "The Dark Mark". This must of been the chapter 
that originally contained that illfated Weasly cousin. I think it's 
interesting to note that this chapter probably has the most going on 
plot-wise under the surface than anything else in the book.. (The Egg 
and the Eye comes to mind) It's no wonder she had trouble! But of 
course it comes across quite well in the finished product.

It's a suprise she didn't say chapter Thirty Four "Priori 
Incantatem". After all she didn't have this chapter fixed when the 
book went to press...

Scott




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 13 03:36:51 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:36:51 -0600
Subject: SPOILERS: School Books
References: <C8CB3DE988C8D3119BDA00A0C9B3BD4D0142BA21@miaexch1>
Message-ID: <3AAD95D2.8A0734BF@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14206

Hi --

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed these books!  I wasn't sure what to expect
... but I was delighted.  I read Quidditch through the Ages pool-side
(aren't all of you Yankees jealous!) and got sun-burned in the process.
:--)

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

QUIDDITCH BOOK --

1.  I loved learning that there *are* cushioning charms on the brooms
... it always sounded a bit uncomfortable to me (and I couldn't help
wondering about the effects of broomstick riding on males ...!).

2.  There's a Museum of Quidditch in London.  Is it in Diagon Alley or
are there are other wizarding areas of London?

3.  Wonder if Bowman Wright of Godric's Hollow will turn out to be
important (somehow related to the Potters??).

4.  Was Harry violating the 6th rule of Quidditch when he pulled out his
wand to perform the Patronus Charm on the "Dementors" in PoA?  Were they
"members of the crowd" for that purpose??

5.  Okay, so all the professional Quidditch franchises in ASA are now
disproven (including my beloved Cheddar Cavemen & Sirius' favorite, the
Dundee Dragons).  It does seem as though the 13 teams are
disproportionately congregated in southwestern England and southern
Wales, does it not?  Caerphilly, Chudley, Falmouth, Holyhead (northern
Wales but still Welsh), Puddlemere (if it's Puddletown), Tutshill (love
this one!) and Wimbourne.

I now think Sirius' favorite team would indeed be the Montrose Magpies.
I'm guessing he goes with the winner ... and they're based *very* close
to Dundee.  :--)

6.  The 2 US Quidditch teams to break into the international level of
competition: frantic wave to fellow West-Texan Jim Flanagan!!!  Ha!!  I
grew up a few hours away from Sweetwater .. a sleepy little town with a
powerhouse football tradition.  A few hrs away sounds like alot ... but
it's not in Texas.  125 miles but they were in the same district for
football purposes with my birthplace town.  Anyway ... veering wildly OT
but I yelled when I saw this!

I hope we see more Quidditch in the coming books .... I hate to think
the Voldy War will interrupt this completely.

FANTASTIC BEASTS:

General observation: I have much to do to update the Wizarding World --
Government FAQ based on this book (and the Quidditch one to a lesser
extent).

1.  Hogwarts is confirmed to be in Scotland (indirectly).

2.  If this is a textbook that they've had since 1st year, why was
Hermione "researching" basilisks in the library since there's an entry
on them in here?

3.  In several places, it is noted that there have been other
Parselmouths (not just Slytherin & Harry).

4.  I don't understand why Japanese is underlined in the description of
Kappas (or the comment "Snape hasn't read this either").  Can anyone
explain?

5.  So, the fact that the phoenix can disappear and reappear at will: is
this the explanation for how Fawkes gets into the Chamber of Secrets?

Does everyone have all these beasts memorized?  <vbg>

Heidi asked:

> If dumbledore is alive tto writ book intros in 2001, then does that
> mean he survives the end of book 7? And if the charity is "in harry
> potter's name" and not memory, does that mean he does too?

I wouldn't necessarily make those assumptions.  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 04:16:14 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 04:16:14 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: School Books
In-Reply-To: <3AAD95D2.8A0734BF@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <98k6ue+o7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14207

Hullo. Spoiler space and all of that jazz - 

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 

> 
> I hope we see more Quidditch in the coming books .... I hate to 
think
> the Voldy War will interrupt this completely.
> 

 I agree. I doubt that she would put out QTA if we never see any more 
Quiddich, considering we now know all about rules and what not.

> 4.  I don't understand why Japanese is underlined in the 
description of
> Kappas (or the comment "Snape hasn't read this either").  Can anyone
> explain?
> 

 I believe this has to do with a referrence Snape makes in one 
lesson - he says that they are from...*memory goes kaput* er, 
somewhere other than Japan. ^_^;; Anyway, Snape said they were from 
somewhere else, and they were making fun of him.


> Heidi asked:
> 
> > If dumbledore is alive tto writ book intros in 2001, then does 
that
> > mean he survives the end of book 7? And if the charity is "in 
harry
> > potter's name" and not memory, does that mean he does too?
> 

Penny replied:
> I wouldn't necessarily make those assumptions.  :--)
> 

  I got the impresson that the whole HP-that-we-are-reading-about-
took-place-several-years-ago thing was not coming into play; in fact, 
I took the forwards/backs of books to indicate that Harry was a 
student at the time of publishing. So Dumbledore would not be dead 
then, and he still could die later. Of course, I don't like the whole 
thing about the books taking place in the past....why can't it be 
now? Grrr. Darn death day party. 

MC, rambling on...




From recla at magick.net  Tue Mar 13 04:58:34 2001
From: recla at magick.net (Dennis Recla)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:58:34 -0800
Subject: SPOILER The Text from the CHAT
In-Reply-To: <98k6ue+o7c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBLMIEAKMHNMICJHAHGEALDDAA.recla@magick.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14208

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I found the text of the chat is now posted on:

http://www.hpgalleries.com/c118.htm


BTW, JKR indicates the following in the chat...

What is the approximate value of a galleon?
About five pounds, though the exchange rate varies! 

When is Ron's Birthday?
First of March, in case you're thinking of sending him a card, 
and Hermione is the nineteenth of September.. 


And many many more insites into the books..

Dumbledore !!





From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Mar 13 05:10:42 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:10:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Winerip criticism of PS/SS
Message-ID: <200103130513.f2D5DJ614023@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 14209

Amy Z wrote:

>I just read a 1999 review of PS/SS by Michael Winerip, for the New
>York Times.  It was generally extremely positive.  The following
>criticism really got me thinking, though:
>
>>Most noticeably, Hagrid, the gentle
>> giant of a groundskeeper who has selflessly protected Harry over and
>>over, suddenly turns so selfish he is willing to let Harry be
>> punished for something that is Hagrid's fault. That's not the Hagrid
>>I'd come to know.


This actually did occur to me, mainly because Hagrid tells Malfoy something 
like "You've done wrong and now you've got to serve your punishment."  I 
thought it seemed pretty hypocritical of him to say that.  Maybe Hagrid didn't 
realize why they were being punished (OK, so that's a major stretch...)  It is 
weird though.

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
for once making a comment about something other than shipping




From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Mar 13 05:44:30 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:44:30 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAT: Room with magical properties?
Message-ID: <200103130547.f2D5lA621700@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 14210

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> How about Dumbledore's office?  Isn't GoF the first time he's
> actually been in there?  Or does that matter -- it IS a room he
> visits in GoF.  If any room has magical properties, it's D's
> office!
>
> SML

My money's on the room full of chamber pots that Dumbledore mentions at the 
Yule Ball. ;)

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
Wow!  2 non-shipping posts in one day!  Do I get a medal?




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 13 07:20:53 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:20:53 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore/Snape/spouse theory
Message-ID: <98khol+q74o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14211

Firstly, this might have been discussed earlier, but in light of the 
BBC chat this is a theory that I'm pondering. In the recent chat 
JKR was asked this question and answered as thus:

Q: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?
A: Good question - yes, a few of them, but that information is sort 
of restricted - you'll find out why...

Why is it restricted? Perhaps Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore and vice 
versa can be explained by my pseudo-theory: Snape's wife, whom Snape 
was very loyal to (sorry to everyone who thinks he was in love with 
Lily :), was going to do something terrible to Our Side, which Snape -
 at great personal risk - told Dumbledore about. Whilst two evil 
Snapes might sound stupid, there are passages in the canon which can 
be manipulated into evidence. For example:

'Snape!' shouted Karkaroff. 'Severus Snape!' (GoF, Chap. 30)

Karkaroff justified himself with the 'Severus Snape!' part because 
there are two Snapes - our Snape, and Mrs Snape. Although Karkaroff 
was probably just repeated himself for emphasis. Well, I never said 
it had to make sense. It's just my Mrs Snape Theory :)

--> Sam




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Tue Mar 13 11:32:32 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 13 Mar 2001 11:32:32 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <984483152.4913.85885.s5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14212


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Group Members/girls2.jpg 
  Uploaded by : yael_pou at hotmail.com 
  Description : my daughters in (bath) robes. The big one (who takes after me) is a Hermione-look-alike. The little one (who takes after my husband) doesn't look like any HP character, and i do not want to hear otherwise. :) 

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Group%20Members/girls2.jpg 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

yael_pou at hotmail.com
 







From john at walton.to  Tue Mar 13 12:06:12 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:06:12 +0000
Subject: SPOILERS: FBeasts: Wizarding World Governance
Message-ID: <B6D3B4AC.DFD7%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14213

L
O
R
R
A

L
O
R
R
A

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

Something small I picked up on in FB, footnote of UK page xviii:

"The largest department at the Ministry of Magic is the Department of
Magical Law Enforcement, to which the remaining six departments are all, in
some respect, answerable -- with the possible exception of the Department of
Mysteries."

Higher up on the page it says that the second-largest is the Department for
the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures.

So...there sre seven Departments in the MoM. This conflicts with Steve
Vander Ark's Lexicon page
(http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/w_ministry.html#departments), which
counts eight from within the books. Hmm...has JKR added one in, we wonder?

Steve counts:

Dept of Magical Games and Sports
Dept of Magical Catastrophes
Dept of Accidental Magic Reversal
Dept of International Magical Cooperation
Dept of Magical Law Enforcement
Dept of Magical Transportation
Dept for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures
Dept of Mysteries

Is one of the above part of another (Accidental Magic Reversal part of
Catastrophes)?

Don't wizards have *normal* mundane departments like Environment, Health,
Home Office (aka Interior) etc? I'm particularly surprised there's no
Health, especially with St Mungo's (and that other hospital too).

Anybody else have thoughts on this?

--John

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///

John "Such a Witch!" Walton                 john at walton.to

Remember: socks then shoes.

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///




From john at walton.to  Tue Mar 13 12:11:06 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:11:06 +0000
Subject: Red/Green in HP (was: Re: Chapter 34 Summary)
In-Reply-To: <3AAD848C.962CFF72@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <B6D3BEDA.DFDD%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14214

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> I think there must be some meaning with red & green in this series, but darn
> if I can come up with anything that makes much sense.  Harry has green eyes;
> Voldemort has red eyes (how weird is *that*!).  Green light seems to be
> associated with evil curses; red light/red things seem to emit frequently from
> Harry's wand.  The Dark Mark is a green skull.  Hmmm .....

Ne forgettez pas the fact that Slytherin is Green and Gryffindor is red. The
Hogwarts Express is also red.

FWIW,

--John

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///

John "Such a Witch!" Walton                 john at walton.to

Remember: socks then shoes.

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///




From john at walton.to  Tue Mar 13 12:09:38 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:09:38 +0000
Subject: Spoilers: FB: Which beasts will show up?
Message-ID: <B6D3BE82.DFDD%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14215

Okay, which beasts would you put money on showing up in the novels? I'm
going for:

1) Lethifold
2) Chimaera (Hagrid...)
3) More dragons
4) Erumpent (Hagrid...)
5) Kelpie (specifically the Loch Ness kelpie)
6) Quintaped
7) Runespoor
8) Golden Snidget

--John

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///

John "Such a Witch!" Walton                 john at walton.to

Remember: socks then shoes.

///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 13 13:14:59 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:14:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAT: Room with magical properties? 
References: <200103130547.f2D5lA621700@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <000f01c0abbf$9c5519e0$5114a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14216




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sister Mary Lunatic" <klaatu at p...> wrote:
> How about Dumbledore's office?  Isn't GoF the first time he's
> actually been in there?  Or does that matter -- it IS a room he
> visits in GoF.  If any room has magical properties, it's D's
> office!
>
> SML

My money's on the room full of chamber pots that Dumbledore mentions at the
Yule Ball. ;)

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
Wow!  2 non-shipping posts in one day!  Do I get a medal?


What about the kitchen? They visited it for the first time in GoF.
Doreen, who awards Kathy the Golden Chamber Pot Trophy for 2 non-shipping
posts in one day.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Mar 13 13:32:05 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:32:05 -0000
Subject: Winerip criticism of PS/SS
In-Reply-To: <200103130513.f2D5DJ614023@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <98l7gl+dcor@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14217

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen at c...> 
wrote:
 
> This actually did occur to me, mainly because Hagrid tells Malfoy 
something 
> like "You've done wrong and now you've got to serve your 
punishment."  I 
> thought it seemed pretty hypocritical of him to say that.  Maybe 
Hagrid didn't 
> realize why they were being punished (OK, so that's a major 
stretch...)  It is 
> weird though.

But if he said it to Draco, who was impermissibly out of  bed after 
hours, and who didn't have the excuse, in Hagrid's mind, that Harry & 
Hermione did, then Hagrid is right - Draco did do wrong by breaking a 
school rule, and there are punishments for that sort of thing. 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 13 14:10:18 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:10:18 -0000
Subject: BP Chat - Gwen's fanfic - RIII wand order - AD, HG sketches
Message-ID: <98l9oa+jj8v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14218

I laughed so hard reading that chat!  "I don't imagine I'm very 
popular in Dursley."  LOL!  They should take advantage of it and make 
themselves Harry Potter Central.  Have an annual fair, give out prizes 
for the most Dursleyish participant, etc.

Boo to JKR on not liking cats (she writes Crookshanks admirably for a 
non-cat-lover).  I may never forgive Ron for seriously suggesting 
kicking Mrs. Norris.  Kudos on not liking Jeffrey Archer.  The first 
time I read him I had no idea he was a best-seller--I thought "this is 
awful!"  Then I learned he was hugely successful and I was stunned.  

And congrats to you Brits on having Comic Relief be such a big deal.  
You do this every year?  We don't have anything equivalent except 
Jerry Lewis's telethon for muscular dystrophy (shudder).

I loved her answer on Hermione and Ron.  She is so hilarious!  You 
know she knows we all sit here picking apart every SHIP hint, and that 
non-information like that just drives us crazy.

Dave wrote:

>And McGonnegal is the one who has the hottest sex with her spouse!  
;)

Would that be the veela stripper you mentioned?  (BTW, sorry to 
nitpick, but the European Wizards' Convention of 1748 specifically 
outlawed strip acts by veela.  They were just too dangerous; taverns 
all over the continent had been going up in flames, and something had 
to be done.)

Michelle on Snape's age:

>I think JKR is referring to the year that she is presently writing 
>about, namely 1995-1996, Harry's fifth yearat Hogwarts.  We know that 
>Harry was born in 1980, due to the timeline set down in CoS (the 
>500th anniv. Deathday party).  Otherwise, Lily would have been about 
>15 or 16 when she gave birth to Harry, which seems unlikely.

Harry turns 15 right after GoF.  If Snape is 35 then, and Lily 
would've been just about the same age, then she would've been 20 when 
Harry was born.

But if she means Snape is 35 at the start of the series (I agree this 
probably isn't what she meant), then Lily would've been about 24 when 
Harry was born, not about 16.

Gwen wrote:

>But I
>do think that the first CoS wasn't _exactly_ 50 years before Harry's
>CoS--the characters all say "about" 50 years ago. I think it's much 
more
>likely that the CoS was opened around 1940, thus giving even 
Dumbledore time
>to become enlisted in the fight against Grindlewald and defeating him 
in
>1945.

Right--I agree on the vagueness of the dates (and the longer ago the 
date, the more approximate the "about," IMO).  I think you have some 
wiggle room here.  I just think you're going to have to do what you 
suggest above:  have Dumbledore already at Hogwarts (since he was 
there when the Chamber was opened) and leave for a time to go do his 
WWII/Grindelwald stuff, then come back.  Like Ted Williams.

CMC wrote:

>(2)  Shakespeare has Richard's victims in chronological order
>(from first to final victim); JKR intended to do this in reverse 
>(from latest on back), but of course got the sequence a bit 
>confused.  (A Point for  Shakespeare)

(Irony marker on)  Actually, it's a little-known fact that Shakespeare 
had Buckingham appear *before* Hastings in the first published version 
of the play, causing much confusion among the actors and a 
proliferation of theories among his fans.  Some of the fans were quite 
relieved when a "corrected" version appeared without comment, but 
others were disappointed that Shakespeare hadn't shown his 
characteristic inventiveness and worked around it.  To this day there 
are Hastings Died First Societies in most English-speaking countries. 
(Irony marker off)

>And set the murderous Machiavel to school.
>Can I do this, and cannot get a crown?
>Tut, were it farther off, I'll pluck it down

>(interestingly, the real Machiavelli, born in 1469, was still a child 
>when these events were unfolding)

See?  WS could screw up with the best of them.

>JKR needs to go into recluse mode until the thing is finished. I say 
>we Fed Ex her some Polyjuice Potion, along with a lock of hair from 
>either Thomas Pynchon or JD Salinger. 

I will resist the urge to submit a fanfic of Book 5 in the style of 
J. D. Salinger, ripe though the possibilities are (Lily as Seymour?  
Harry as Zooey?  Dumbledore as Bessie?).

Top notch post on Dumble, CM!

Penny wrote:

>I had planned to
>trim my Hermione FAQ to serve as her character summary in a few weeks
>but perhaps I'll not trim too much since everyone seems to be 
enjoying
>the longer summary.

I vote for the long version.  We're down to the core characters now, 
and they deserve a lot of space.

Penny (short for Pensieve?):

>If you believe that he meant for Harry to find it, you must also 
believe
>that Dumbledore knew Harry would be coming to his office

Yes--I was hoping someone would point this out!  I don't think AD knew 
he was coming, but we can still ask whether Dumbledore glanced around 
the office before leaving Harry alone in it (good idea, the kid's an 
impossible troublemaker), noticed he'd left it ajar, and deliberately 
decided to leave it.

>I read Quidditch through the Ages pool-side

Gee, thanks, Penny.  You made my day.

Amy Z
enduring a day of freezing rain--and still no sign of QTA & FB in my 
mailbox

------------------------------------------------
 "I've told you before, Ron, keep your nose out 
 if you like it the shape it is.  Can't see why
 you would, but--"
                 -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
------------------------------------------------




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Mar 13 14:24:18 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:24:18 -0000
Subject: FB&WTFT - A Historical Context
Message-ID: <98laii+cpj4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14219

Nonspoiler stuff above, real discussion below...

As a recovering British history major, who happens to be married to a 
recovering European history major, I spent part of the time, since 
finishing the schoolbooks, looking for resources on the web about the 
Muggle historical events that were happening in tandem with certain 
events mentioned in the books. 
Among my discoveries were...
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
f
r
o
m
h
i
s
t
o
r
y
In 1688, William & Mary of Orange became King & Queen, and accepted 
the Declaration of Rights, which incorporated an indictment of James 
II and his transgressions, and a declaration of the rights of 
citizens. http://www.lawsch.uga.edu/~glorious/dor.html Some of the 
rights included no levying taxes or suspending/dispensing of laws 
without approval of Parliament, the abolishment of the Court of High 
Commission (was this the Star Chamber?), the establishment of free 
elections, free speech in Parliament, and an end to excessive bail or 
cruel punishment.
Methinks that some openminded wizards & witches at the Muggle court 
(the descendents of Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington?) observed these 
going on with interest, and were determined to discuss a similar 
Declaration of Rights for magical creatures at the International 
Federation of Wizards Council. Of course, it took almost three years 
for the issue to be placed on the agenda, due to the time consuming 
discussions on the thickness of cauldron bottoms, and by the time the 
Federation brought the issue up for consideration, the original 
issues had become extremely muddled. 








From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 13 14:35:27 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:35:27 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Spoilers for the JKR Schoolbooks (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AAE302F.4F3898B3@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14220

Hi everyone --

The Moderator Team has decided to require spoiler warnings & spoiler
space for discussion of the schoolbooks released this week (March
12th).  These 2 books are: Quidditch Through the Ages and Fantastic
Beasts and Where to Find Them.

For those of you unfamiliar with spoiler warnings, etc. -- here's a
brief review.  Put something like the following as your subject heading:
Quidditch book (SPOILER WARNING).  Include a minimum of 15 lines of
spoiler space before typing your message.  If you are replying, be sure
to include spoiler space and put your reply *under* the part that you
are replying to (ensuring plenty of spoiler space).  Here's how it
should look:

After your greeting, type the following

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

This will allow anyone who inadvertently opens your message to avoid
seeing any text.

Again, this ADMIN message will be sent out daily through the end of next
week.  We are currently thinking that spoilers should stay in place
about 2 weeks from the release date of March 12th.  You will be notified
when spoilers are no longer required.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team














From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 13 14:34:20 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:34:20 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Announcements List is up & running (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AAE2FEC.CB7B5A4@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14221

Hi everyone --

Your Moderator Team has been hard at work, looking for ways to reduce
message volume and keep the main group friendly & organized.

We've set up another sister Yahoogroup -- the HP4GU - Announcements
list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

This list is intended for those who want to receive announcements about
HP news, book release dates, fanfic plugs by the author, notification of
new merchandise, as well as periodic summaries of what the main group
has been discussing (including those members who cannot cope with the
high posting rate on the main list).

Please note that we are requiring the types of announcements that you
see listed below be made *only* to the Announcements List.  This will
reduce message volume on the main group.  The only messages that will be
duplicated will be the ADMIN messages posted to the main group and
copied to the Announcements list.

To manage the volume on this list, it is a moderated group.  This means
that one of the Moderators on the Moderator Team must approve your
message before it gets sent out to the list.

The following announcements are permitted (not an exhaustive list -
please check with the Moderators if you are unsure about your message):

*** The HPforGrownUps Newsletter (edited by Jeralyn and Ebony)

*** ADMIN messages from the Moderator Team (copies of those posted to
the main group)

*** Announcements of chat room sessions

*** Announcements of new discussion summaries posted to the main list

*** Plugs of fanfiction (one plug per chapter by the author)

*** Plugs of HP-related events (including regional Members' meetings)

*** Plugs of new HP websites or of new HP information on other websites

*** News releases, with links (this should include things related to the
Warner Brothers' movie)

*** Fun HP links, such as Sorting Hat quizzes

*** Alerts to new HP merchandise

*** JKR sightings; JKR events (book signings, tours, TV appearances,
chats, etc.)

*** Information on HP fan clubs

Again, we encourage everyone to join this group as well.  The message
volume should remain relatively low & focused (because the Moderators
must approve each message, you can be assured that the subject heading
will be relevant!).

Please remember that beginning March 12th, fanfic plugs, merchandise
sightings, news links and the like need to be posted *only* to the
Announcements list.  This message will be repeated several times over
the next few weeks to be sure everyone is aware of the changes.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team















From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 13 14:32:46 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:32:46 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: OT messages to move to the OTChatter List (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AAE2F8E.43AB3DA6@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14222

Hi everyone --

Starting this week, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup. This is in order to make it easier to sort
through messages and reduce overall message volume on this list.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

You will need to join this list, but as with any yahoogroup, you may set
your subscription options to (a) individual emails, (b) digests or (c)
webview only.  There are about 60 or so members over there already, and
the message volume promises to be high.  So, if you might not care much
about OT posts or care only now & again, the webview option might be a
good choice.

On this OT-Chatter list, you may discuss anything unrelated to Harry
Potter (subject to the rule against inflammatory topics - see below),
and you should, in addition, discuss the following HP-related things on
this list rather than the main HPforGrownups list (this is *not* an
exhaustive list):

*** Fanfic recommendations (recommending/discussing a fanfic by someone
else - unless
it can be tied to canon)

*** Listings of HP merchandise collections

*** Answering a roll call (e.g. for the H/H Cruiseliner or the Good Ship
R/H)

*** Detailing your results on a HP Quiz or Sorting Hat test

*** Short, fun posts, such as 'Tom Swifties'

*** Shipper Debates not supported by examples from canon

*** Opinions on HP artwork, book covers and other paraphernalia

*** Definitions or explanations of British words, phrases and traditions
related to HP

***  Exchanges of cultural information between the Americans and the
Brits

*** Anything that you would preface with "This is slightly OT but ..."

We wish this area of the club to remain friendly and welcoming, so the
Moderators will step in if any thread appears to be veering in a
contentious direction.   Examples of prohibited subjects include
politics and The Holocaust.

This message will be resent every day for the next 2 weeks.  If you've
read it once, there will be no need to re-read it.  We just want to be
sure that everyone gets the message.  Don't be surprised if you get an
e-howler (or at least a friendly reminder) from one of the Moderators if
you violate the OT policy.

Thanks for listening (more ADMIN messages to come -- please continue to
read them as they are important).

Penny
The Moderator Team







From rdeyerle at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 13 15:11:28 2001
From: rdeyerle at hotmail.com (Rusty Deyerle)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:11:28 -0000
Subject: Some more SPOILERS: QTA, FBWFT
In-Reply-To: <98k1j2+6hh8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98ldb0+401v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14223

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pengolodh_sc at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., nlpnt at y... wrote:
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > S
> > > 
> > > F
> > > O
> > > R
> > > 
> > > N
> > > E
> > > W
> > > 
> > > B
> > > O
> > > O
> > > K
> > > S
> > > ----------
> > 
> > Ladies and gentlemen, we have an exchange rate!  Right below the 
> > UPC on the back cover; $3.99 US= 14 Sickles 3 Knuts. I take it 
> > there's something similar to this on the UK editions? Anyone with 
> > better math skills than me want to take a crack at this?
> 
> Yes, there is a similar thing on the British editions - apparently 
> the exchange rate bewteen the exchangerates Galleon/? and Galleon/$ 
> is not wholly consistent between the direct exchange-rate  ?/$ - 
this 
> is not unheard of however.  Take a look in the foreword, however - 
> there are numbers there that tell a different tale than the 
backside 
> of the book.
Exchange rates vary - So when Dumbledore wrote the forward they were 
at one level. Much later when the covers were printed the rates had 
shifted.

Rusty 




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 15:48:58 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:48:58 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: QTA, FBWFT and exchange rates (long and mathematical)
In-Reply-To: <003001c0ab6a$fad63800$0201a8c0@hp>
Message-ID: <98lfha+sqv0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14224

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Natalie" <natabat at c...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <nlpnt at y...>
> To: <HPforGrownups at y...>
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:26 PM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some more SPOILERS: QTA, FBWFT
> 
> 
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > S
> > >
> > > F
> > > O
> > > R
> > >
> > > N
> > > E
> > > W
> > >
> > > B
> > > O
> > > O
> > > K
> > > S
> > > ----------
> >
> 
> new wand from Ollivanders: 7 Galleons (SS5)
> $51.31
> 
> dragon liver: 17 Sickles per ounce (SS5)
> $7.31
>  
> unicorn horn: 21 Galleons (SS5)
> $153.93
> 
The knowledge that you, Natalie, are wonderfully obsessed- priceless.
The best things in life are free.
For everything else, there's GringottsCard.

 ooohhh, I just couldn't resist :)






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Mar 13 15:58:41 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:58:41 -0000
Subject: SPOILER - FB$WTFT
Message-ID: <98lg3h+mcfb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14225

Is Crookshanks
a
q
u
e
s
t
i
o
n
a
b
o
u
t
a
c
a
t
a cat, a Kneazle, or a mixture of the two?




From shellymoos65 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 16:36:59 2001
From: shellymoos65 at yahoo.com (shellymoos65 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:36:59 -0000
Subject: Order of the Pheonix
Message-ID: <98libb+ragc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14226

Hi all, 
  I was at Waldenbooks yesterday and they were taking prebooks for 
the Order of the Pheonix but said it won't be out till next year.  If 
this has already been discussed I'm sorry, I've been gone for 
awhile.  But has anyone else heard this.  The clerk said they had 
heard July of 2002.  God please tell me NO!!!!!  Anyone else?  Shelly




From rmatovic at ssk.com  Tue Mar 13 16:43:36 2001
From: rmatovic at ssk.com (rmatovic at ssk.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:43:36 -0000
Subject: Moody/Crouch/Imperio Q Re: Chapter 34 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010311230956.26788.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <98lino+5cn4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14227

-
>
> 
> After being untied and given back his wand, Voldemort taunts and 
> coerces him into a duel.  Voldemort is too quick the first time, and 
> Harry is hit with the Cruciatus curse again.  When asked if he is in 
> pain, Harry doesn't answer.  Voldemort hits him with the Imperio 
> curse, and Harry successfully resists.  "I WON'T!" he yells.  
> Voldemort is not amused.


Why did Crouch as Moody go out of his way to teach Harry how to resist 
the Imperio Curse?  Once you know that "Moody" is Crouch in disguise, 
you can see this lesson as an opportunity to show off the forbidden 
curses, but then why encourage Harry to learn to fight it off?  Ends up 
being a mistake, since Crouch made it possible for Harry to fight off 
Voldy.

Rebecca







From hedwigthecat at aol.com  Tue Mar 13 16:44:28 2001
From: hedwigthecat at aol.com (hedwigthecat at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:44:28 EST
Subject: Cat lovers
Message-ID: <73.bc16263.27dfa86d@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14228

In a message dated Mon, 12 Mar 2001  6:55:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, "ender_w" <ender_w at msn.com> writes:

  >>Q - What or who would you send to Room 101
  >>JK - cats - I don't like them... and certain journalists..

  So that's why Mrs. Norris is such an odious character!  Am I the only one who feels sorry for her and Filch (especially when Mrs. Norris is found petrified in CoS)?

  Ender...who loves cats.>>

Yes, I felt sorry for Mrs. Norris as well.

What about Crookshanks...?

~Hedwig~

Hooo loves cats tooo:)



From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Mar 13 17:04:49 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:04:49 -0000
Subject: Order of the Pheonix
In-Reply-To: <98libb+ragc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98ljvh+qn9s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14229

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., shellymoos65 at y... wrote:

Hello Shelly,

The book currently has no scheduled release date, and it does sound 
like it will not be available until 2002. In chat yesterday, JKR 
herself said she didn't know when it would be released. I would be 
quite distraught myself if we didn't have the movie to look forward 
to.

Just for future reference, HP4GU has a very complete VFAQ (Very 
Frequently Asked Questions) list in the Files section. I'm sure it 
will be updated once the release date has been made official.

B


> Hi all, 
>   I was at Waldenbooks yesterday and they were taking prebooks for 
> the Order of the Pheonix but said it won't be out till next year.  
If this has already been discussed I'm sorry, I've been gone for 
awhile.  But has anyone else heard this.  The clerk said they had 
heard July of 2002.  God please tell me NO!!!!!  Anyone else?  Shelly




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Mar 13 12:07:32 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:07:32 EST5EDT
Subject: Cat Lovers
Message-ID: <747A038B@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14230

Actually....I'm a ferret owner.  So every time I read a reference to 
ferrets (Draco, the amazing bouncing ferret, Buckbeak eating 
ferrets, that guy being questioned about some extremely old (odd?) 
ferrets...) I just figured she hated ferrets and I'd "oohh!" and pout.

:-)




Rachel Bray

"Excuse me, I don't like people just because they're 
handsome!" said Hermione indignantly.
Ron gave a loud false cough, which sounded oddly 
like "Lockhart!"




From star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net  Tue Mar 13 17:17:58 2001
From: star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net (star_ling at wiccanet.every1.net)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:17:58 -0000
Subject: Cat lovers
In-Reply-To: <73.bc16263.27dfa86d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <98lko6+k1ml@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14231

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., hedwigthecat at a... wrote:
> In a message dated Mon, 12 Mar 2001  6:55:51 PM Eastern Standard 
Time, "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> writes:
> 
>   >>Q - What or who would you send to Room 101
>   >>JK - cats - I don't like them... and certain journalists..
> 
>   So that's why Mrs. Norris is such an odious character!  Am I the 
only one who feels sorry for her and Filch (especially when Mrs. 
Norris is found petrified in CoS)?
> 
>   Ender...who loves cats.>>
> 
> Yes, I felt sorry for Mrs. Norris as well.
> 
> What about Crookshanks...?
> 
> ~Hedwig~
> 
> Hooo loves cats tooo:)

I don't mind to much about how Mrs. Norris is shown, at least she's 
loyal like my cats, I luv cats but don't care for dogs (unless they 
change into Sirius).  I really like Crooshanks but wonder about him, 
how did he know Sirius was inoscent?  Cats are always associated with 
magic(k) so I think they have special understanding abilities to 
wizards/witches, that would explain Mrs. Norris' connection to Filch.

~Star~
well known for being a cat lover




From vderark at bccs.org  Tue Mar 13 17:47:47 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:47:47 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: FBeasts: Wizarding World Governance
In-Reply-To: <B6D3B4AC.DFD7%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <98lmg3+gsb4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14232

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> L
> O
> R
> R
> A
> 
> L
> O
> R
> R
> A
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E

> So...there sre seven Departments in the MoM. This conflicts with 
Steve
> Vander Ark's Lexicon page
> (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/w_ministry.html#departments), 
which
> counts eight from within the books. Hmm...has JKR added one in, we 
wonder?
> 
> Steve counts:
> 
> Dept of Magical Games and Sports
> Dept of Magical Catastrophes
> Dept of Accidental Magic Reversal
> Dept of International Magical Cooperation
> Dept of Magical Law Enforcement
> Dept of Magical Transportation
> Dept for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures
> Dept of Mysteries
> 
> Is one of the above part of another (Accidental Magic Reversal part 
of
> Catastrophes)?

I listed anything called a department in the books. My guess is that 
you are correct, Accidental Magic Reversal and Catastrophes are one 
and the same. Probably they are refered to by either of these terms 
for one reason or another. 

I haven't had time to read all through the books yet, so these kinds 
of details haven't made it into the Lexicon. I will be sitting down 
with my notebook and reading through with great care and hopefully 
soon have the Lexicon back up to snuff. It's a bit of a desperate 
feeling when all this new info floods in. It does take time to get it 
all noted. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
ALMOST the most complete resource available anywhere about HP
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vaile2000 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 12 08:44:43 2001
From: vaile2000 at hotmail.com (Tina Smart)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:44:43 +1100
Subject: Snape as Death Eater
Message-ID: <F2403OJXsNQptgFrYIL00001764@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14233

Snape seems to be everyone's favourite topic at the moment, and I just had a 
thought.

Was Snape already a spy (Dumbledore's spy)? Was he working for Dumbledore 
all the time? No one has questioned his loyalty to Dumbledore, and maybe it 
extends further than the last 14 years.
We have all thought that maybe he would go back to the death eaters as a 
spy, but maybe he was that from the very beginning. He is nasty on the 
surface, but how many times has he helped harry? Under all that surface 
nastiness he has shown himself as a caring and loyal person. He would still 
need to appear mean to be believed by the death eaters that he has come 
back.
I think that obviously that will be addressed in one of the future books, 
but I see this as just as much a possibility as him truly having been a 
committed death eater.

Any thoughts?

Tina.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Mar 13 19:18:39 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:18:39 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore/Snape/spouse theory
In-Reply-To: <98khol+q74o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98lrqf+h26t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14234

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., find_sam at h... wrote:
> Firstly, this might have been discussed earlier, but in light of the 
> BBC chat this is a theory that I'm pondering. In the recent chat 
> JKR was asked this question and answered as thus:
> 
> Q: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?
> A: Good question - yes, a few of them, but that information is sort 
> of restricted - you'll find out why...
> 
> Why is it restricted? Perhaps Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore and vice 
> versa can be explained by my pseudo-theory: Snape's wife, whom Snape 
> was very loyal to (sorry to everyone who thinks he was in love with 
> Lily :), was going to do something terrible to Our Side, which Snape 
-
>  at great personal risk - told Dumbledore about. Whilst two evil 
> Snapes might sound stupid, there are passages in the canon which can 
> be manipulated into evidence. For example:
> 
> 'Snape!' shouted Karkaroff. 'Severus Snape!' (GoF, Chap. 30)
> 
> Karkaroff justified himself with the 'Severus Snape!' part because 
> there are two Snapes - our Snape, and Mrs Snape. Although Karkaroff 
> was probably just repeated himself for emphasis. Well, I never said 
> it had to make sense. It's just my Mrs Snape Theory :)


It makes me wonder who is married and where these spouses/families 
reside. It's conceivable that the Hogwarts has apartments located 
somewhere on the grounds. Just as it is conceivable the married 
professors live in Hogsmeade.

>From what little we know in the 4 books, McGonagall has broken up a 
Gryffindor party while dressed in her dressing gown. Which gives me 
the impression that her apartments are near the Gryffindor tower. I 
could imagine hubby telling her "I need to apparate early in the 
morning for that meeting in Bangkok. Please, tell those children to go 
to bed. And if they don't listen to you, I'll go there myself!"

As for Snape, he too has been walking about Hogwarts at night in his 
night shirt. So I suspect he doesn't live too far from the Slytherin 
dungeon. I have two feelings about husband Snape. Either he's totally 
henpecked by his wife or he's the epitome of a loving husband and 
doting father (if there are children involved). 

I guess Rowling has "hidden" professors' spouses and families from us 
because it makes these authority figures more "human". I remember 
seeing my High School American History teacher, Mr. Thomas, in a 
supermarket with his kids. He didn't look "right" to me then because I 
was so used to seeing him in his "teacher" role, not picking out 
cereal with his kids. I think Harry would see Snape in a new light if 
he saw him playing catch with Severus Jr. in the park or mending 
little Carlotta's teddy bear.

:-)Milz
 




From ender_w at msn.com  Tue Mar 13 19:30:20 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:30:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody/Crouch/Imperio Q Re: Chapter 34 Summary
References: <98lino+5cn4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c0abf4$0f59fee0$42eb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 14235


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: rmatovic at ssk.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 11:43 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody/Crouch/Imperio Q Re: Chapter 34 Summary

  >>Why did Crouch as Moody go out of his way to teach Harry how to resist 
  >>the Imperio Curse?  
  >>Rebecca


  I thought it might be to test Harry and see how powerful he truly is.  It seems that some wizards do have the ability to fight off the curse (some more than others), and Harry's ability to fight the imperio curse would have been valuable information for Voldemort and his peeps.

  ender






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  From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.

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From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Tue Mar 13 19:37:57 2001
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 13 Mar 2001 19:37:57 -0000
Subject: New file uploaded to HPforGrownups 
Message-ID: <984512277.21212.34596.ab@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14236


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPforGrownups 
group.

  File        : /Group Members/mandy&jan.JPG 
  Uploaded by : editor at texas.net 
  Description : Amanda & her hubby, in medieval regalia. Caveat: this photo is eleven years old. I am much grayer. I no longer have time to do makeup, mostly. I no longer have a waist. Almost everything is bigger. But this is still the way my *mind* sees me, so here ya go.  

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Group%20Members/mandy%26jan.JPG 

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

editor at texas.net
 







From rosewoof at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 13 19:48:41 2001
From: rosewoof at earthlink.net (Rose Woofenden)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:48:41 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore/Snape/spouse theory
Message-ID: <2.2.32.20010313194841.006b05f4@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14237

>It makes me wonder who is married and where these spouses/families 
>reside. It's conceivable that the Hogwarts has apartments located 
>somewhere on the grounds. Just as it is conceivable the married 
>professors live in Hogsmeade.
>
>From what little we know in the 4 books, McGonagall has broken up a 
>Gryffindor party while dressed in her dressing gown. Which gives me 
>the impression that her apartments are near the Gryffindor tower. I 
>could imagine hubby telling her "I need to apparate early in the 
>morning for that meeting in Bangkok. Please, tell those children to go 
>to bed. And if they don't listen to you, I'll go there myself!"
>
>As for Snape, he too has been walking about Hogwarts at night in his 
>night shirt. So I suspect he doesn't live too far from the Slytherin 
>dungeon. I have two feelings about husband Snape. Either he's totally 
>henpecked by his wife or he's the epitome of a loving husband and 
>doting father (if there are children involved). 

I think it would/could perhaps be different for Snape and McGonagall then
the other teachers, since they are heads of the houses. As the head of the
house they would probably be required to live near or in the dorms, much
like a dorm mother in a US college.  They would need to be there to settle
late night pillow fights and send students to be etc. It wouldn't quite work
if they lived in Hogsmede. 

But I think that the other teachers could really live anywhere. They could
Apperate into Hogsmeade, and then go to Hogwarts from there. Or just live in
Hogsmeade. 

Another thing somewhat on the same lines that I've been thinking about is
the chaprone/dorm parent thing. Do we know if there are other adults that
live in or near the dorms as dorm parents. It just seems a little strange to
me that there is only one person in charge of each dorm, when there are at
least a few dozen students, male and female. I know in a school here in the
US there are many dorm parents. Does anyone have any information/insights on
the subject?


-Rose

        "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but
a habit." ~Aristotle




From schmiksue at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 19:58:42 2001
From: schmiksue at yahoo.com (Sue Schmik)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:58:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cat Lovers
In-Reply-To: <20010313195727.63509.qmail@web11007.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010313195842.57610.qmail@web9807.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14238


> --- Rachel Bray <bray.262 at osu.edu> wrote:
> > Actually....I'm a ferret owner.  So every time I
> > read a reference to 
> > ferrets (Draco, the amazing bouncing ferret,
> > Buckbeak eating 
> > ferrets, that guy being questioned about some
> > extremely old (odd?) 
> > ferrets...) I just figured she hated ferrets and
> I'd
> > "oohh!" and pout.
> 
> 
> Cool, I own a ferret to.  And I really got mad at
> Buckbeak when he was eating them:)  Ferrets are cool
> animals.  If you think about it though, Malfoy's
> personality kind of resembles a ferret (sneaky, and
> gets into everything)  :-)
> 
> I love my ferret though, he's a perfect little angel
> (yeah right)
> 
> Sue 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great
> prices.
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From klaatu at primenet.com  Tue Mar 13 20:28:10 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:28:10 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore/Snape/spouse theory
In-Reply-To: <98lrqf+h26t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOIELCDDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14239

I'm starting to believe that Snape is either married to an unrepentant
Death-Eater and hasn't seen her for the last ten years, or he is a widower
whose spouse died in Vold War I.  The fact that Dumbledore trusts Snape not
to return to the Death Eaters makes me think that explanation #2 is the
correct one.

SML

======================================================
Evil Empress Notes on Fortress Construction:
#2.  My Command Center will have a heavily guarded room
at the bottom of a 100 story subterranean shaft that
will contain a sophisticated bus-sized computer with
a fake encoded plan, no external link, and no real function
whatsoever. The real command center will be a satellite-linked
laptop on a card-table with a folding chair at the top of the
elevator shaft, behind a door marked 'standpipe valves'
accessible through the unlocked janitor's closet.
======================================================




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 13 20:37:03 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:37:03 -0000
Subject: Animal lovers - FB
In-Reply-To: <98lko6+k1ml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98m0df+ai4n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14240

Star wrote:

I really like Crooshanks but wonder about him, 
> how did he know Sirius was inoscent?  

Feline intuition.  JKR might not like cats, but she gets their 
personality pretty well.  Mrs. Norris also seems to be very 
perceptive, even if she does use her intuition in the service of 
Filch.  (My theory is that she *can* see through Invisibility Cloaks 
and just doesn't report Harry & co. to Filch because she's saving it 
up for blackmail potential.)

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

F
O
R

F
A
N
T
A
S
T
I
C 

B
E
A
S
T
S

I was most unamused by the bit about Fred using Ron's pet for Bludger 
practice.  If Ron isn't joking, I'm not talking to Fred anymore.  (He 
hasn't called me in weeks anyway.)

Seriously, that's beyond nasty sarcastic big-brother stuff and well 
into the realm of abuse.

Amy Z
who *still* hasn't gotten her mail-ordered books (should've sprung 
for owl post), but sat in the bookstore reading and giggling for a 
precious 1/2 hour today




From margdean at erols.com  Tue Mar 13 20:55:22 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:55:22 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as Death Eater
References: <F2403OJXsNQptgFrYIL00001764@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AAE893A.CE5F69BD@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14241

Tina Smart wrote:

> Was Snape already a spy (Dumbledore's spy)? Was he working for Dumbledore
> all the time? No one has questioned his loyalty to Dumbledore, and maybe it
> extends further than the last 14 years.
> We have all thought that maybe he would go back to the death eaters as a
> spy, but maybe he was that from the very beginning. He is nasty on the
> surface, but how many times has he helped harry? Under all that surface
> nastiness he has shown himself as a caring and loyal person. He would still
> need to appear mean to be believed by the death eaters that he has come
> back.
> I think that obviously that will be addressed in one of the future books,
> but I see this as just as much a possibility as him truly having been a
> committed death eater.
> 
> Any thoughts?

I dunno . . . I think it gives Snape more depth if he's allowed
to be nasty as part of his true personality, rather than it being
a put-on of any kind.  (That's my one problem with the otherwise
excellent and moving fic "The Potion-Master's Apprentice.")

I see him, as a student and young man, as a kind of person who'd
be easily lured into the Death Eaters by his envy of people (like
James Potter or Sirius Black) who were better looking, more
popular, or more skilled than himself, in the spirit of "I'll
show =them!=."  We don't know anything about his family
background yet (which I hope to find out in later books!), but I
would guess that his family was =not= a happy, loving one. 
There's a lot of stored-up bitterness in Snape -- you can see it
spurting out like hot lava in the later chapters of PoA, where he
has to deal with the "Marauders" Lupin and Black.

I do agree that he's loyal to Dumbledore, who I would suspect
more or less hauled him out of Hell once he realized he
=couldn't= go the distance with the Death Eaters.  Under the
surface he is a principled man, and I don't think he's incapable
of caring for people, but I don't agree that he is what we
usually think of as a "caring person."  I see him as bitter,
lonely, still envious but nevertheless on the right side and
determined to stay there. 

Other comments?  Opinions?


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 20:42:43 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:42:43 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: FBeasts: Wizarding World Governance,
In-Reply-To: <B6D3B4AC.DFD7%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <98m0o3+5kqp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14242

Hullo!
Spoilers for FB

> L
> O
> R
> R
> A
> 
> L
> O
> R
> R
> A
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 

<snip>
> Steve counts:
> 
> Dept of Magical Games and Sports
> Dept of Magical Catastrophes
> Dept of Accidental Magic Reversal
> Dept of International Magical Cooperation
> Dept of Magical Law Enforcement
> Dept of Magical Transportation
> Dept for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures
> Dept of Mysteries
> 
> Is one of the above part of another (Accidental Magic Reversal part 
of
> Catastrophes)?
> 
> Don't wizards have *normal* mundane departments like Environment, 
Health,
> Home Office (aka Interior) etc? I'm particularly surprised there's 
no
> Health, especially with St Mungo's (and that other hospital too).
> 
> Anybody else have thoughts on this?
> 

"Lorra" Spoiler space? Hmmm. Anyway - this might be MC being a dork 
again, but isn't there a Goblin Laison...department? Or was it 
something else? And what about the Expirimental Charms? In GoF, the 
guy with horns? Hmmm. . . .I agree that it would only make sense if 
there were some more practical departments, such as Heath. How 
strange.
 
 On another note - In reply to whoever made the Crookshanks comment... 
I think that he must be a Kneazle, and Hermione doesn't know it yet. 
They can detect shifty people; that certainly sounds right. And the 
interbreed with cats, so he must be at least part Kneazle. Or maybe 
he's just very, very smart?


MC, who also owns a ferret and hated that Buckbeak ate them... *sob*




From margdean at erols.com  Tue Mar 13 20:59:39 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:59:39 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody/Crouch/Imperio Q Re: Chapter 34 Summary
References: <98lino+5cn4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AAE8A3B.A25AB943@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14243

rmatovic at ssk.com wrote:

> Why did Crouch as Moody go out of his way to teach Harry how to resist
> the Imperio Curse?  Once you know that "Moody" is Crouch in disguise,
> you can see this lesson as an opportunity to show off the forbidden
> curses, but then why encourage Harry to learn to fight it off?  Ends up
> being a mistake, since Crouch made it possible for Harry to fight off
> Voldy.

It makes me wonder about the effects of using a Polyjuice Potion
long-term, and how much of the false "Moody" actually =was= Moody
and not an act.  Harry and Ron only stayed in Crabbe and Goyle
form for an hour.  What would have happened if they'd kept it
up?  Would they start "being" Crabbe and Goyle in more than just
outward form?


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 13 20:55:47 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:55:47 -0000
Subject: Dates in QTA/FB (was have books in hand)
In-Reply-To: <98jl0b+mdr1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98m1gj+qr70@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14244

Heidi wrote:

> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> > If dumbledore is alive tto writ book intros in 2001, then does 
that 
> mean he
> > survives the end of book 7?
> > And if the charity is "in harry potter's name" and not memory, 
does 
> that
> > mean he does too?

And Snuffles wrote:

> I think it must do because he 'is a triffle reluctant to allow the 
> book to be reprinted' (FB) which seems to suggest that he was 
> consulted

I got all excited about the two worlds (ours and theirs) coming 
together, not least because of the above point (I'm not too worried 
that Harry will die, but I am about Dumbledore).  Major date problem, 
however: 

Assuming that QTA was yanked from the library recently (I know 
they're just being cute with the 3/11 return date, but let's say it's 
3/11/00 to allow some printing time <g>);

and also assuming that another joke with the signout dates is that 
this book goes out *constantly*--no year-or-more gaps with this one 
the way there are with titles such as Advanced Arithmancy--

then C. Diggory took it out well after 1995.

???

This would seem to bear out the theory, recently proposed by someone 
on here (sorry, can't find it even though it was a recent post), 
that "now" is 2001 for us but 1995?6? for the HP world.  In which 
case we have to treat the forewords as being written in the months 
after GoF, i.e. 1995-96, and can't draw any conclusions about who's 
alive in 2001.

I thought we could solve the whole thing by saying C. Diggory is a 
different C. Diggory--maybe Cedric had a several-years younger 
brother or sister?  Or proposing the Cedric-becomes-a-ghost (who- 
still-loves-Quidditch) theory.  But we also have O. Wood on there and 
he hasn't been around since 1994...

Maybe there are lots of copies of QTA in the Hogwarts library so that 
there *are* long gaps between each of these signouts, in which case 
O. Wood could've signed it out in 1994, C. Diggory in 1995, H. Potter 
in 2001 even though there are only a couple dozen names total.

Or maybe this copy got retired in 1996 and has been sitting on the 
storage-room shelf with H. Potter 3/11/96 as the most recent patron.  
That still seems to leave long gaps between signouts though.

Confused,
Amy Z




From editor at texas.net  Tue Mar 13 21:01:15 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:01:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody/Crouch/Imperio Q Re: Chapter 34 Summary
References: <98lino+5cn4@eGroups.com> <3AAE8A3B.A25AB943@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3AAE8A9B.126A73AE@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14245

Margaret Dean wrote:

> It makes me wonder about the effects of using a Polyjuice Potion
> long-term, and how much of the false "Moody" actually =was= Moody and
> not an act.  Harry and Ron only stayed in Crabbe and Goyle form for an
> hour.  What would have happened if they'd kept it up?  Would they
> start "being" Crabbe and Goyle in more than just outward form?

Excellent question. In PoA, Sirius mentions that not only did his
knowledge of his innocence help him against the dementors, but that when
he was in dog form, his emotions were less human, harder for the
dementors to perceive. So I got the impression that it's a little more
complicated being an animagus than simply having an animal form--your
mind works a bit differently.

Thus, I would have thought spending a length of time in animal form
would affect your thinking---but here's Pettigrew, twelve years as a rat
under his belt, effortlessly picking up where he left off as a human.

Polyjuice Potion is similar to the animagus magic in that it actually,
physically, transforms you--it's not an illusion. I presume it
transforms the internals, too, or Crouch/Moody would not have been able
to use the fake leg and eye. So it transforms the brain--so *does* it
affect one's thinking if used for a long time? Evidently transformation
to an animagus does not, although I'd guess it transforms the internals,
too.

Hmmm.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From margdean at erols.com  Tue Mar 13 21:42:39 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:42:39 -0500
Subject: Polyjuice Potion and Other Transformations
References: <98lino+5cn4@eGroups.com> <3AAE8A3B.A25AB943@erols.com> <3AAE8A9B.126A73AE@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AAE944F.322A7EDF@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14246

Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> 
> Margaret Dean wrote:
> 
> > It makes me wonder about the effects of using a Polyjuice Potion
> > long-term, and how much of the false "Moody" actually =was= Moody and
> > not an act.  Harry and Ron only stayed in Crabbe and Goyle form for an
> > hour.  What would have happened if they'd kept it up?  Would they
> > start "being" Crabbe and Goyle in more than just outward form?
> 
> Excellent question. In PoA, Sirius mentions that not only did his
> knowledge of his innocence help him against the dementors, but that when
> he was in dog form, his emotions were less human, harder for the
> dementors to perceive. So I got the impression that it's a little more
> complicated being an animagus than simply having an animal form--your
> mind works a bit differently.
> 
> Thus, I would have thought spending a length of time in animal form
> would affect your thinking---but here's Pettigrew, twelve years as a rat
> under his belt, effortlessly picking up where he left off as a human.

Unless he sneaked off every so often during those twelve years
and became a man again for a few hours (maybe long enough to
visit the local pub...).

Also, we don't necessarily know the full effects of the spell
Lupin and Black used on Pettigrew to force him back into human
form.  They may have been forcing him back into human mentality
as well.
 
> Polyjuice Potion is similar to the animagus magic in that it actually,
> physically, transforms you--it's not an illusion. I presume it
> transforms the internals, too, or Crouch/Moody would not have been able
> to use the fake leg and eye. So it transforms the brain--so *does* it
> affect one's thinking if used for a long time? Evidently transformation
> to an animagus does not, although I'd guess it transforms the internals,
> too.

Another wrinkle is the effect of the Wolfsbane Potion, which
enables a werewolf to keep his human mind even when transformed
to a wolf (which normally doesn't happen -- that is obviously one
transformation which =does= involve mind as well as body).

This may be one reason why the animagus transformation is so
complicated and dangerous.

Though conversely, it may be =easier= to switch from animal mind
==> human mind because of the very perceptible differences
between them, whereas the differences between one human mind and
another are more subtle . . . and easier to miss.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From kdemcak at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 13 21:35:16 2001
From: kdemcak at hotmail.com (kdemcak at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:35:16 -0000
Subject: Snape as Death Eater/Snape as Darcy?/newbie
In-Reply-To: <F2403OJXsNQptgFrYIL00001764@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <98m3qk+v58u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14247

> Snape seems to be everyone's favourite topic at the moment, and I 
just had a 
> thought.
> 
> Was Snape already a spy (Dumbledore's spy)? <snip> He is nasty on 
the 
> surface, but how many times has he helped harry? Under all that 
surface 
> nastiness he has shown himself as a caring and loyal person. 

This reminds me of a theory I've read on a Jane Austen board I 
frequent; I can't claim it to be my own, but it makes sense to me (and 
please forgive me if this seems really out there). 

JKR has said many times that she's a big Jane Austen fan and there are 
already some Austen references in the books (Mrs. Norris being 
probably the biggest one).  This astute reader believes that JKR is 
sort of basing Snape on Mr. Darcy from Pride and Prejudice -- a 
character whose intentions and character are misread by the 
protagonist.  Darcy is first judged to be arrogant, unlikable, and 
almost immoral -- but turns out to be the opposite and ends up the 
hero of the book.

It's an interesting theory that seems to jive with what's already 
occurred with Snape's character so far. Darcy isn't entirely 
well-behaved at the beginning of the novel, though, and Snape  hasn't 
always been fair with our favorite Gryffindors.  But he certainly 
seems to be on the right side of things now. It will be *very* 
interesting to see what happens with him in 5/6/7.

Also, have to introduce myself -- I'm a fellow Harry-Potter-obsessed 
"grown-up" who was very excited to find this board.  I've been lurking 
around and can't wait to participate in these great discussions.  Just 
reread all four books so have lots of fresh ideas swirling around in 
my brain.

Cheers,
Katy

------
"You don't know how bizarre it is to see Goyle




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Mar 13 21:44:32 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:44:32 -0000
Subject: Polyjuice Potion and Snape and/or Draco Parallel Transformations
In-Reply-To: <3AAE944F.322A7EDF@erols.com>
Message-ID: <98m4c0+ld14@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14248

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> > 
> > Margaret Dean wrote:
> > 
> > > It makes me wonder about the effects of using a Polyjuice Potion
> > > long-term, and how much of the false "Moody" actually =was= 
Moody and
> > > not an act. 
> > Thus, I would have thought spending a length of time in animal 
form
> > would affect your thinking---but here's Pettigrew, twelve years 
as a rat
> > under his belt, effortlessly picking up where he left off as a 
human.
> 
> Unless he sneaked off every so often during those twelve years
> and became a man again for a few hours (maybe long enough to
> visit the local pub...).
> 

I can just visualize Scabbers sneaking out of the Burrow and 
transforming into Wormtail for a few hours in the middle of the night 
every few weeks, sitting among the gnomes and the chickens, bemoaning 
the loss of his master and cursing those bratty twins who kept 
persecuting Percy, his master and only friend...
And I can see Percy pouring out his secrets to his little pet rat, 
and sulking when Molly insisted that he give little Scabbers to Ron, 
the summer before Ron started at Hogwarts. "You don't want Hermes to 
eat Scabbers, do you?"

Also wanted to note - Crouch wasn't allowed a wand while under his 
father's control, so (a) was he using the Real Moody's wand, and if 
so, how did he get it to work as well as he did? Was he practicing 
little charms in the evenings to get the feel of it? Or did he really 
intend to turn Draco into a French poodle, but messed the 
transfiguration up?

And speaking of Draco, which I so often do, I have to insist that 
Snape is *not* Mr Darcy. He can't be! Apart from the fact that 
Elizabeth IS Hermione, and there's NO future for the two of them, it 
is clear (in my private universe) that Draco is Darcy. See! 5 letter 
names starting with D, which also contain an A, a C, an R and a vowel 
(or at least a sometimes-vowel). For more proof, go to my fanfic, 
Homage, at http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-
read&storyid=209007 : )




From rmatovic at ssk.com  Tue Mar 13 21:49:14 2001
From: rmatovic at ssk.com (rmatovic at ssk.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:49:14 -0000
Subject: Pettigrew the rat (was: Moody/Crouch/Imperio)
In-Reply-To: <3AAE8A9B.126A73AE@texas.net>
Message-ID: <98m4kq+fm36@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14250

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
>. In PoA, Sirius mentions that not only did his
> knowledge of his innocence help him against the dementors, but that when
> he was in dog form, his emotions were less human, harder for the
> dementors to perceive. So I got the impression that it's a little more
> complicated being an animagus than simply having an animal form--your
> mind works a bit differently.
> 
> Thus, I would have thought spending a length of time in animal form
> would affect your thinking---but here's Pettigrew, twelve years as a rat
> under his belt, effortlessly picking up where he left off as a human.

Although, one could argue that Pettigrew has a lot of rat like 
qualities to begin with.  And the post-twelve-years-as-a-rat Pettigrew 
does have a certain ratlike quality -- instinct for self-preservation, 
quick focus on getting out of Dodge when things get hot, servile, 
cowering ... 


Rebecca





From margdean at erols.com  Tue Mar 13 22:22:44 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:22:44 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pettigrew the rat (was: Moody/Crouch/Imperio)
References: <98m4kq+fm36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AAE9DB4.9FB68A79@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14251

rmatovic at ssk.com wrote:
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> >. In PoA, Sirius mentions that not only did his
> > knowledge of his innocence help him against the dementors, but that when
> > he was in dog form, his emotions were less human, harder for the
> > dementors to perceive. So I got the impression that it's a little more
> > complicated being an animagus than simply having an animal form--your
> > mind works a bit differently.
> >
> > Thus, I would have thought spending a length of time in animal form
> > would affect your thinking---but here's Pettigrew, twelve years as a rat
> > under his belt, effortlessly picking up where he left off as a human.
> 
> Although, one could argue that Pettigrew has a lot of rat like
> qualities to begin with.  And the post-twelve-years-as-a-rat Pettigrew
> does have a certain ratlike quality -- instinct for self-preservation,
> quick focus on getting out of Dodge when things get hot, servile,
> cowering ...

'Course, this circles us back to the matter of whether one's
animagus form is a reflection of one's personality in the first
place -- that you don't choose it, it chooses you!  IOW if
Pettigrew weren't such a ratlike fellow, his animagus form
wouldn't =be= a rat.

Speaking of which, JKR can't dislike cats =that= much if
Professor McGonagall transforms into one!  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 22:22:59 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:22:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore/Snape/spouse theory
In-Reply-To: <98lrqf+h26t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010313222259.25227.qmail@web11111.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14252

>> In the recent chat JKR was asked this question and answered: 
>> Q: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?
>> A: Good question - yes, a few of them, but that information is
>> sort of restricted - you'll find out why...

> It makes me wonder who is married and where these spouses/families 
> reside. It's conceivable that the Hogwarts has apartments located 
> somewhere on the grounds. Just as it is conceivable the married 
> professors live in Hogsmeade.

Maybe I missed something but the question is phrased in the past
tense and JKR doesn't correct it.  So I assume that some of the
faculty (and it's not a young crowd aside from Snape) were married
and are widowed.  

If Hogwarts is modeled on the normal English public school, the
teachers who are heads of houses would sleep in the same tower as
their houses.  They're supposed to be available in case of trouble or
medical emergency.  Probably have a hidden door or something.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 22:29:45 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:29:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as Death Eater/Snape as Darcy?/newbie
In-Reply-To: <98m3qk+v58u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010313222945.79247.qmail@web11112.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14253

> This astute reader believes that JKR is
> sort of basing Snape on Mr. Darcy from Pride and Prejudice -- a 
> character whose intentions and character are misread by the 
> protagonist.  Darcy is first judged to be arrogant, unlikable, and 
> almost immoral -- but turns out to be the opposite and ends up the 
> hero of the book.

Wonder what Trevor the Toad would think of this idea.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Mar 13 22:32:39 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:32:39 -0000
Subject: House Sleeping Arrangements (was Re: Dumbledore/Snape/spouse theory)
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20010313194841.006b05f4@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <98m767+sv9t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14254

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Rose Woofenden <rosewoof at e...> wrote:

> I think it would/could perhaps be different for Snape and McGonagall 
then
> the other teachers, since they are heads of the houses. As the head 
of the
> house they would probably be required to live near or in the dorms, 
much
> like a dorm mother in a US college.  They would need to be there to 
settle
> late night pillow fights and send students to be etc. It wouldn't 
quite work
> if they lived in Hogsmede. 
> 
> But I think that the other teachers could really live anywhere. They 
could
> Apperate into Hogsmeade, and then go to Hogwarts from there. Or just 
live in
> Hogsmeade. 
> 
> Another thing somewhat on the same lines that I've been thinking 
about is
> the chaprone/dorm parent thing. Do we know if there are other adults 
that
> live in or near the dorms as dorm parents. It just seems a little 
strange to
> me that there is only one person in charge of each dorm, when there 
are at
> least a few dozen students, male and female. I know in a school here 
in the
> US there are many dorm parents. Does anyone have any 
information/insights on
> the subject?

Maybe the House Prefects act as Resident Assistants, in the US 
University sense. In my college, we had RAs(resident assistants) who 
were undergraduate students and we had RCs (resident coordinators) who 
were graduate students and were the liasons between the Dean of 
Students and the dorm system.

:-)Milz




From rosewoof at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 13 22:38:48 2001
From: rosewoof at earthlink.net (Rose Woofenden)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:38:48 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Sleeping Arrangements
Message-ID: <2.2.32.20010313223848.006b400c@earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14255


>Maybe the House Prefects act as Resident Assistants, in the US 
>University sense. In my college, we had RAs(resident assistants) who 
>were undergraduate students and we had RCs (resident coordinators) who 
>were graduate students and were the liasons between the Dean of 
>Students and the dorm system.

That would make sense. But it still seems to me that there would be an adult
male, as well as a female for both houses.  I mean, you have students as
young as 11 there, aren't they going to need a parent sort of figure
sometimes, not just an older brother type? 
-Rose

        "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but
a habit." ~Aristotle




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Tue Mar 13 22:39:06 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:39:06 -0000
Subject: SPOILER - FB$WTFT
In-Reply-To: <98lg3h+mcfb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98m7ia+5ndb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14256

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

a
n
d

a

b
i
t

m
o
r
e
> Is Crookshanks
> a cat, a Kneazle, or a mixture of the two?

Definitely part Kneazle/part cat - Odd looks, bottle-brush tail (lion 
like?), but not speckled/spotted or with overly large ears that we 
know of.

Now when is that animal going to guide Hermione safely home?

Florence (new here hi!)




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Tue Mar 13 22:47:01 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:47:01 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS FB
Message-ID: <98m815+dc99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14257

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

a
n
d

a

b
i
t

m
o
r
e

Has anyone any ideas why we don't see entries for 3-headed dogs or 
Dementors in this book?  Please don't tell me dementors are 'beings' 
"that is to say worth of legal rights and a voice in the governance of 
the magical world".

Florence




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Mar 13 22:47:21 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:47:21 -0000
Subject: Dates in QTA/FB (was have books in hand)
In-Reply-To: <98m1gj+qr70@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98m81p+1bvr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14258

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Heidi wrote:
> 
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > S
> > > P
> > > A
> > > C
> > > E
> > > If dumbledore is alive tto writ book intros in 2001, then does 
> that 
> > mean he
> > > survives the end of book 7?
> > > And if the charity is "in harry potter's name" and not memory, 
> does 
> > that
> > > mean he does too?
> 
> And Snuffles wrote:
> 
> > I think it must do because he 'is a triffle reluctant to allow the 
> > book to be reprinted' (FB) which seems to suggest that he was 
> > consulted
> 
> I got all excited about the two worlds (ours and theirs) coming 
> together, not least because of the above point (I'm not too worried 
> that Harry will die, but I am about Dumbledore).  Major date 
problem, 
> however: 
> 
> Assuming that QTA was yanked from the library recently (I know 
> they're just being cute with the 3/11 return date, but let's say 
it's 
> 3/11/00 to allow some printing time <g>);
> 
> and also assuming that another joke with the signout dates is that 
> this book goes out *constantly*--no year-or-more gaps with this one 
> the way there are with titles such as Advanced Arithmancy--
> 
> then C. Diggory took it out well after 1995.
> 
> ???
> 
> This would seem to bear out the theory, recently proposed by someone 
> on here (sorry, can't find it even though it was a recent post), 
> that "now" is 2001 for us but 1995?6? for the HP world.  In which 
> case we have to treat the forewords as being written in the months 
> after GoF, i.e. 1995-96, and can't draw any conclusions about who's 
> alive in 2001.
> 
> I thought we could solve the whole thing by saying C. Diggory is a 
> different C. Diggory--maybe Cedric had a several-years younger 
> brother or sister?  Or proposing the Cedric-becomes-a-ghost (who- 
> still-loves-Quidditch) theory.  But we also have O. Wood on there 
and 
> he hasn't been around since 1994...
> 
> Maybe there are lots of copies of QTA in the Hogwarts library so 
that 
> there *are* long gaps between each of these signouts, in which case 
> O. Wood could've signed it out in 1994, C. Diggory in 1995, H. 
Potter 
> in 2001 even though there are only a couple dozen names total.
> 
> Or maybe this copy got retired in 1996 and has been sitting on the 
> storage-room shelf with H. Potter 3/11/96 as the most recent patron. 
 
> That still seems to leave long gaps between signouts though.
> 

Before I write my response, I must say that the veil between our world 
and the Potter world has become virtually non-existant.

Amy alluded that there are more than one or two copies of this book in 
the Hogwarts library. I agree with that especially since it is a very 
popular book with the students.

Also, Dumbledore is using Harry's, Ron's and Hermione's name 
recognition for this charitable effort. So it only makes sense that 
the chosen copy will have their names on the register.

Finally, when I read the introduction to FB, I thought "YAY! MAJOR 
MAJOR SPOILERY CLUE to Book 7!!!".....but we'll have to wait and see. 

:-)Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Mar 13 22:50:46 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:50:46 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS FB
In-Reply-To: <98m815+dc99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98m886+im1d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14259

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., fgcjnk at b... wrote:
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> a
> n
> d
> 
> a
> 
> b
> i
> t
> 
> m
> o
> r
> e
> 
> Has anyone any ideas why we don't see entries for 3-headed dogs or 
> Dementors in this book?  Please don't tell me dementors are 'beings' 
> "that is to say worth of legal rights and a voice in the governance 
of 
> the magical world".
> 
> Florence

By golly you're right! The Dementors were left out of the book as were 
the Giants!

Maybe the Dementors aren't beings NOR are they beasts. Maybe they are 
non-classified entities? 

Milz




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Tue Mar 13 22:54:49 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:54:49 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Logo for HPforGU
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEMJDFAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 14260

Hello all,

The time is upon us we all can vote to make an important decision. Every man,
woman and child (not forgetting the goat, owl, car or rock (the rock having
gained voting rights as per the rules described in message 613 from the OT
Chatter group <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/613>)) has
the chance to vote and decide on the logo that will be used to promote the Harry
Potter for Grown Ups Internet presence.


I take this opportunity to thank everyone who has deigned logos for us. Your
efforts are much appreciated.


The logos are viewable on the graphics group:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics>
Go to Files and then Logos and then the two files are logos.htm and logos2.htm
(links below).
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logos.ht
m>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logos2.h
tm>


Each of the logos has a number to the left of it. These are the logo
identification numbers, and you will need to remember the number of your
favourite logo so that you can vote for it.

NOTE: There is no logo number 12, but it is listed in the poll. This is because
for me to change anything on the poll would delete all votes currently cast in
the poll, something that is not worth the hassle involved.


To vote you have to go to the Announcements group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements>. Once there you head towards
the polls section and there you will find the logo poll
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements/surveys?id=584551>.  You will
need to join the Announcements group, if you have not done so already. Joining
the Announcements list will benefit your life by giving you information about
Harry Potter stuff (see message 14221
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/14221> for more information
about the Announcement group).

You have until the end of this month (31st March) to cast your vote. There will
be no recounts.


If you have any questions or problems then feel free to contact me and,
hopefully, I will be able to supply you with an answer.

Simon Branford





From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Tue Mar 13 23:52:30 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:52:30 -0800
Subject: wonderings
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BECC@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 14261

Someone this morning asked (forgive me, I don't remember who and I
accidentally deleted the message) why Dumbledore keeps sending Harry back to
the Dursley's each summer if there are people at Hogwarts.  I finally found
a passage that supports why he might do that.
 
It's in Goblet of Fire (I happen to be looking at the British version,
though I assume this is basically the same in the US one)
 
p. 570 Voldemort says
 
'But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I
think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when
it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient
magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations'
care. Not even I can touch him there...then, of course, there was the
Quidditch World Cup...I thought his protection might be weaker there, away
from his relations and Dumbledore, but I was not yet strong enought to
attempt kidnap in the midst of a horde of Ministry wizards. And then, the
boy would return to Hogwarts, where he is under the crooked nose of that
Muggle-loving fool from morning until night. So how could I take him?'
 
So, clearly, Dumbledore has set up an ancient magic protection of some sort
having to do with Privet Drive and the Dursley's, so he send Harry back
every summer to ensure his safety.  It's something that's been bugging me
for a while, and I just caught that passage last night.
 
Mer



From pbnesbit at msn.com  Wed Mar 14 00:00:24 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:00:24 -0000
Subject: Snape as Death Eater
In-Reply-To: <3AAE893A.CE5F69BD@erols.com>
Message-ID: <98mcao+2q48@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14262

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> > 
> I dunno . . . I think it gives Snape more depth if he's allowed
> to be nasty as part of his true personality, rather than it being
> a put-on of any kind.  (That's my one problem with the otherwise
> excellent and moving fic "The Potion-Master's Apprentice.")
> 
> I see him, as a student and young man, as a kind of person who'd
> be easily lured into the Death Eaters by his envy of people (like
> James Potter or Sirius Black) who were better looking, more
> popular, or more skilled than himself, in the spirit of "I'll
> show =them!=."  We don't know anything about his family
> background yet (which I hope to find out in later books!), but I
> would guess that his family was =not= a happy, loving one. 
> There's a lot of stored-up bitterness in Snape -- you can see it
> spurting out like hot lava in the later chapters of PoA, where he
> has to deal with the "Marauders" Lupin and Black.
> 
> I do agree that he's loyal to Dumbledore, who I would suspect
> more or less hauled him out of Hell once he realized he
> =couldn't= go the distance with the Death Eaters.  Under the
> surface he is a principled man, and I don't think he's incapable
> of caring for people, but I don't agree that he is what we
> usually think of as a "caring person."  I see him as bitter,
> lonely, still envious but nevertheless on the right side and
> determined to stay there. 
> 
> Other comments?  Opinions?
> 
> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   <margdean at e...>


I agree with you, Margaret.  I think that he was at one time, very 
committed to the Death Eaters, but because of something that happened 
when he was with them, he found he couldn't continue. I also think 
that he would do pretty much anything for Dumbledore.  

I think he's very passionate underneath that bitter, sarcastic 
exterior (which I think is just part of his personality), and is 
capable of being a loving, caring human being (which is one reason 
why I love The Potions Master's Apprentice).  He doesn't often get to 
show it and I think it's hard for him to do so.  (I also think he had 
a less than wonderful family)  

I also think that undecipherable look he gave Harry at the end of GoF 
was perhaps indicatave of things to come in books 5/6/7.  Indicative 
of *what*, I'm not sure.  I think he is seeing Harry as Harry for the 
first time (and not as James).

Here's hoping this post makes sense. 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker 

----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Wed Mar 14 00:11:37 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:11:37 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILERS: School Books
In-Reply-To: <3AAD95D2.8A0734BF@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINIEMLDFAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 14263

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

FB
&
QTA

Penny: "4.  Was Harry violating the 6th rule of Quidditch when he pulled
out his wand to perform the Patronus Charm on the "Dementors" in PoA?  Were
they "members of the crowd" for that purpose??"

Well I guess it could be argued that they were not any of the people the
rules say it cannot be used against.
Not opposing team members.
Not opposing team member's broom.
Not the referee.
Not any of the balls.
Not a member of the crowd (this is the most questionable).
Seems like the rule has a little loophole there.

Maybe the right to carry a wand also allows for fair use of it.


Penny: "5.  Okay, so all the professional Quidditch franchises in ASA are
now disproven (including my beloved Cheddar Cavemen & Sirius' favorite, the
Dundee Dragons).  It does seem as though the 13 teams are
disproportionately congregated in southwestern England and southern Wales,
does it not?  Caerphilly, Chudley, Falmouth, Holyhead (northern Wales but
still Welsh), Puddlemere (if it's Puddletown), Tutshill (love this one!)
and Wimbourne."

Appleby - Lincolnshire, East England
Ballycastle - Northern Ireland
Caerphilly - South Easy Wales
Chudley -
Falmouth - Cornwall - South West England
Holyhead - North West Wales
Kenmare - Ireland
Montrose - East Scotland
Portree - Isle of Skye, North West Scotland
Puddlemere -
Tutshill - Gloucestershire, West England (on Welsh/English border)
Wigtown - Dumfries & Galloway, South Scotland
Wimbourne - Dorset, South England (my local team)


I have uploaded a map of UK and Ireland (Ireland freehand added in by me to
the printable UK map I have) and drawn on where each of the teams is
located, except for Chudley and Puddlemere. The map is at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Geographic%20Locations/uk
map.jpg

>From looking at the map it is interesting to note that the 11 I have drawn
on are near the coast or large river.

One possibility is Chudley = Chudleigh (which is in Devon - South England),
which is marked on the map with a grey cross.

I doubt Puddlemere is Puddletown as this would put it very close to
Wimbourne and I doubt there would be two teams that close together.
Interestingly the spell checker recognises Puddlemere.

We seem to be missing teams in the South East and North England. My thought
was Puddlemere was north England. I cannot say why I thought this, but it
was my initial reaction


Penny: "4.  I don't understand why Japanese is underlined in the
description of Kappas (or the comment "Snape hasn't read this either").
Can anyone explain?"

In POA, when Snape is covering Lupin's class, he says, " ... that is
incorrect, the Kappa is more commonly found in Mongolia ... ". So Harry, or
more likely Ron, is pointing out the mistake.



Simon







From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar 14 00:15:46 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:15:46 -0000
Subject: Chapter Nine
In-Reply-To: <98k5f1+m75b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98md7i+i7fr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14264

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:
> In today's chat Jo said that the chapter of GoF which was hell to 
> write was Chapter nine "The Dark Mark". 

Interesting - I wrote about half a filk a couple of months ago 
dramatizing Chap. 9, and then I got stuck.  Haven't been able to 
finish it. 

  - CMC




From eyegrrl at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 14 00:16:54 2001
From: eyegrrl at earthlink.net (Chris)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:16:54 -0600
Subject: question about SS and Snape
In-Reply-To: <98m4b6+hv5b@eGroups.com>
References: <3AAE944F.322A7EDF@erols.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010313180203.00a88320@mail.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14265

Hello I am new here and loving it!

I have a question regarding SS.  (sorry if i am waaaay behind :) )

When Quirrell/Voldemort are talking to Harry, he mentions that Snape was 
trying to protect him during that first Quidditch match.  What does this 
mean?  Did Snape know that Quirrell was the one who was trying to harm 
Harry?  Had Dumbledore asked that everyone on staff look out for 
Harry?  Could Snape have known that Voldemort was returning?  Unfortunately 
I don't have my book handy to check for references, so I might even have 
this backwards.  Can anyone help me out?

Also, I came in during the middle of the thread regarding Snape sacrifcing 
himself to save Harry so forgive me if i repeat or steal someone's 
thoughts.  What if it's the other way around?  Harry does something to save 
Snape?  would this finally be the end of Snape's dislike of Harry?  Would 
he finally be able to recognize and appreciate Harry for the person he IS 
and not the fact that he is James's son?  We know that Harry has often done 
many radical things out of concern for others like waiting to see that all 
the people from the underwater challenge in GoF were saved.  Harry is full 
of love and honor, this we know based on his attempts again and again to 
consider others' feelings.  What proof that you can be a good person no 
matter what horrid family you come from.

anyway thanks for listening
Chris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar 14 00:24:23 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:24:23 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS FB
In-Reply-To: <98m886+im1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98mdnn+gua8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14266

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fgcjnk at b... wrote:
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > 
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> > 
> > a
> > n
> > d
> > 
> > a
> > 
> > b
> > i
> > t
> > 
> > m
> > o
> > r
> > e
> > 
> > Has anyone any ideas why we don't see entries for 3-headed dogs 
or 
> > Dementors in this book?  Please don't tell me dementors 
are 'beings' 
> > "that is to say worth of legal rights and a voice in the 
governance 
> of 
> > the magical world".
> > 
> > Florence
> 
> By golly you're right! The Dementors were left out of the book as 
were 
> the Giants!
> 
> Maybe the Dementors aren't beings NOR are they beasts. Maybe they 
are 
> non-classified entities? 

And where are the Boggarts? Maybe they all transformed into 
Quintapeds when Scamander approached

And I still don't know how to stop a Puffskein from drinking out of 
the toilet.

  - CMC




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar 14 00:29:33 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:29:33 -0000
Subject: Dates in QTA/FB (was have books in hand)
In-Reply-To: <98m81p+1bvr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98me1d+89oc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14267

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Heidi wrote:
> > 
> > > > S
> > > > P
> > > > O
> > > > I
> > > > L
> > > > E
> > > > R
> > > > S
> > > > P
> > > > A
> > > > C
> > > > E
> > > > If dumbledore is alive tto writ book intros in 2001, then 
does 
> > that 
> > > mean he
> > > > survives the end of book 7?


The book Quidditch Through the Ages has been around since Harry 
entered Hogwarts. This passage is from Chap. 11, of HP/SS

"[Hermione] had also lent [Harry] Quidditch Through the Ages, which 
turned out to be a very interesting read. 

Harry learned that there were seven hundred ways of committing a 
Quidditch foul and that all of them had happened during a World Cup 
match in 1473; that Seekers were usually the smallest and fastest
players, and that most serious Quidditch accidents seemed to happen 
to them; that although people rarely died playing Quidditch, referees 
had been known to vanish and turn up months later in the Sahara 
Desert."

And sure enough, all of those bits of trivia are included in QTA!

 - CMC






From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Mar 14 00:33:41 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:33:41 -0000
Subject: question about SS and Snape
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010313180203.00a88320@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <98me95+9h9e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14268

 Chris <eyegrrl at e...> wrote:
> Hello I am new here and loving it!
>
 
Hello! This is a great group isn't it?

> I have a question regarding SS.  (sorry if i am waaaay behind :) )
> 
> When Quirrell/Voldemort are talking to Harry, he mentions that Snape 
was 
> trying to protect him during that first Quidditch match.  What does 
this 
> mean?  Did Snape know that Quirrell was the one who was trying to 
harm 
> Harry?  Had Dumbledore asked that everyone on staff look out for 
> Harry?  Could Snape have known that Voldemort was returning?  
Unfortunately 
> I don't have my book handy to check for references, so I might even 
have 
> this backwards.  Can anyone help me out?

Snape had his suspicions, but probably not enough proof to go to 
Dumbledore or Snape wanted to catch Quirrell red-handed, sort of like 
he did with Sirius. Another way to look at it is maybe Snape was 
trying to gain Quirrell's confidence and act as spy for Dumbledore. By 
knowing Voldemort's plans Snape would certainly be a hero if he were 
to have found and destroyed him.

I do think by the series end, the animosity between Snape and Harry 
will be minimal if existent at all. How it will be resolved is really 
speculation at this point, but it seems likely it will involve some 
sort of "sacrifice"

:-)Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Mar 14 00:49:17 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:49:17 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS FB
In-Reply-To: <98mdnn+gua8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98mf6d+9hl0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14269

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fgcjnk at b... wrote:
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > 
> > > S
> > > P
> > > A
> > > C
> > > E
> > > 
> > > a
> > > n
> > > d
> > > 
> > > a
> > > 
> > > b
> > > i
> > > t
> > > 
> > > m
> > > o
> > > r
> > > e
> > > 

> And I still don't know how to stop a Puffskein from drinking out of 
> the toilet.
> 
>   - CMC

The puffs remind me of the Tribbles in "Star Trek": furry, purry 
spheres of fur, except tribbles don't have long tongues and it's not 
mentioned whether or not puffs like Klingons.

Another group of missing magicals is the House Elves. But would a 
House Elf be considered a "beast" as they stand on two legs? Maybe 
there's a book that deals with magical beings?

:-)Milz




From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 01:25:37 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 01:25:37 -0000
Subject: Granger - technology - Snape - Triwizard Portkey - Lily
In-Reply-To: <3AAB2F32.B78FBAF7@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <98mhah+pk02@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14270

Catlady:"The wizarding folk tell Harry that electricity and Sony 
Gameboys are the stuff Muggles invented to make up for our lack of 
magic. I feel that the real situation is more complicated. At first, 
Muggle tinkerers invented things to accomplish results they had seen 
when visiting wizards --indoor plumbing with flush toilets, for 
example. But at some point,Muggle inventions got ahead of wizarding 
magic, and the situation changed to wizarding folk trying to invent 
magic things to accomplish results that they see when visiting 
Muggles. For example, it is obvious from its NAME that the Wizarding 
Wireless Network was invented to imitate Muggle wireless -- they 
wouldn't be inspired to call a wave on in the air, a song on the wind, 
"wire less" since they hadn't had an earlier version WITH wires (i.e. 
the telegraph). I speculate that the transition occurred during the 
Gaslight Era -- gas lights were invented to imitate wizarding 
automatic candles and railway trains were invented to imitate 
wizarding self-propelled carriages. But electric light, an improvement 
over wizarding automatic candles (except when there are rolling 
blackouts), was an original Muggle invention."

Well spotted, as Hermione would say, but without the sarcasm.  There 
would have been a long period during which this cross-fertilization 
would have been dormant, when wizards were underground and feared 
repression.  The Industrial Revolution would have started the thaw, 
and the Gaslight Era it would have been really in high gear.  So 
you're suggesting that Muggle (or were they) inventors like Watt, 
Fulton and Edison at least knew some wizards or had contact with them.

I always got the impression that the WWN is like radio, not TV. And we 
haven't heard of anything like recordings that enable wizards to play 
their own music.  So you can't take your Weird Sisters stuff with you; 
you've got to settle for Stevie Nicks CD's.






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 14 02:00:12 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:00:12 -0000
Subject: FB (SPOILERS)
Message-ID: <98mjbc+llat@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14271

spoiler space
*
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
8
The Magical Menagerie  (PoA chapter 4), contains quite a few beasties 
not mentioned in FB. It appears that only animals that have to be 
concealed from Muggles (the original twenty six plus the later 
additions and subtractions, I count seventy-five altogether) are dealt 
with, because in the Menagerie we find:
a pair of enormous purple toads
a gigantic tortoise with a jewel encrusted shell
poisonous orange snails (streelers?)
a fat white rabbit
cats of every color
a noisy cage of ravens
a basket of funny colored furballs (puffskeins?)
black rats
a double ended newt
	Perhaps the newt is a freak of nature (or magic?), and magical 
rabbits, cats, ravens etc not to mention owls, are capable of hiding 
amongst their mundane cousins. 
	As for the Dementors,  Lupin mentions (POA 10) that Muggles can't 
see them, so they wouldn't need to be hidden by the Wizards. Could it 
be possible that Dementors are spirits? They do look as though they're 
dead and rotting, after all. They can interact with the physical world 
but so can Peeves, who is also presumably a spirit.
	 It is also interesting that the Grindylow, which is called a 
demon, is considered a beast.
Pippin





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Mar 14 02:01:30 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:01:30 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS FB
In-Reply-To: <98mf6d+9hl0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98mjdq+bqpf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14272

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fgcjnk at b... wrote:
> > > > S
> > > > P
> > > > O
> > > > I
> > > > L
> > > > E
> > > > R
> > > > 
> > > > S
> > > > P
> > > > A
> > > > C
> > > > E
> > > > 
> > > > a
> > > > n
> > > > d
> > > > 
> > > > a
> > > > 
> > > > b
> > > > i
> > > > t
> > > > 
> > > > m
> > > > o
> > > > r
> > > > e
> > > > 
> 
> Another group of missing magicals is the House Elves. But would a 
> House Elf be considered a "beast" as they stand on two legs? Maybe 
> there's a book that deals with magical beings?
> 
There must be, because vampires aren't mentioned in the book either. 
And maybe the justification for including werewolves is that for 1 
night a month, they aren't even humanoid, whereas vampires, house 
elves, goblins and even dementors are always humanoid (except when the 
vampires turn into bats, and that's more like animagi than werewolves, 
as it's a control thing)
If I wanted to be pedantic, I would say that the noninclusion of 
dementors gives credence to the argument made by myself and others 
over the past year, that they are created when a soul is sucked out, 
and therefore, Barty Crouch may return in dementor form (ick!)




From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 02:19:38 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:19:38 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS FB
In-Reply-To: <98mjdq+bqpf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98mkfq+10dta@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14273

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fgcjnk at b... wrote:
> > > > > S
> > > > > P
> > > > > O
> > > > > I
> > > > > L
> > > > > E
> > > > > R
> > > > > 
> > > > > S
> > > > > P
> > > > > A
> > > > > C
> > > > > E
> > > > > 
> > > > > a
> > > > > n
> > > > > d
> > > > > 
> > > > > a
> > > > > 
> > > > > b
> > > > > i
> > > > > t
> > > > > 
> > > > > m
> > > > > o
> > > > > r
> > > > > e
> > > > > 
> > 

> > Another group of missing magicals is the House Elves. But would a 
> > House Elf be considered a "beast" as they stand on two legs? 
Maybe 
> > there's a book that deals with magical beings?
> > 

> There must be, because vampires aren't mentioned in the book 
either. 
> And maybe the justification for including werewolves is that for 1 
> night a month, they aren't even humanoid, whereas vampires, house 
> elves, goblins and even dementors are always humanoid (except when 
the 
> vampires turn into bats, and that's more like animagi than 
werewolves, 
> as it's a control thing)
> If I wanted to be pedantic, I would say that the noninclusion of 
> dementors gives credence to the argument made by myself and others 
> over the past year, that they are created when a soul is sucked 
out, 
> and therefore, Barty Crouch may return in dementor form (ick!)

 I get the general impression that there is a lot of prejudice about 
werewolves than there is about other inhuman humanoids - do you think 
Lupin would merit a "XXXXX16" warning? Harry even noted next to 
it "...are not all bad". Then there was the whole bit in PoA about 
parents not liking it that a werewolf taught their children. I think 
that it is the collective opinion that they are "beats", where some 
other things (Vampires, etc) are more respected. That's my opinion, 
anyway.

 And about the Dementor thing - Ewwww! I mean...blech. It makes 
sense, though. Nasty.

MC





From morine10 at aol.com  Wed Mar 14 02:55:40 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:55:40 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SPOILERS FB
Message-ID: <f9.815a527.27e037ac@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14274

In a message dated 3/13/01 7:28:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
coriolan at worldnet.att.net writes:


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fgcjnk at b... wrote:
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > 
> > > S
> > > P
> > > A
> > > C
> > > E
> > > 
> > > a
> > > n
> > > d
> > > 
> > > a
> > > 
> > > b
> > > i
> > > t
> > > 
> > > m
> > > o
> > > r
> > > e
> > > 
> > > Has anyone any ideas why we don't see entries for 3-headed dogs 
> or 
> > > Dementors in this book?  Please don't tell me dementors 
> are 'beings' 
> > > "that is to say worth of legal rights and a voice in the 
> governance 
> > of 
> > > the magical world".
> > > 
> > > Florence
> > 
> > By golly you're right! The Dementors were left out of the book as 
> were the Giants! Maybe the Dementors aren't beings NOR are they beasts. 
> Maybe they are non-classified entities? 

I think they are probably classified as beings.  From what we know of Giants, 
they are capable of intelligent speech.  I'm guessing the Dementors are as 
well - at least some form of intelligent communication.  Perhaps, unlike 
Merpeople, Centaurs, Vampires, and Hags, the Dementors and Giants did not 
want to handle their affairs separate from wizards and did not decline 
classification as beings.

> And where are the Boggarts? Maybe they all transformed into 
> Quintapeds when Scamander approached
> 

I am under the impression that Boggarts are Spirits.  (Falling under the 
Spirit Division of the Dept. for Control and Regulation of Magical Creatures.)


-Mo
Hey Kathy!  You're rubbing off on me!
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Wonderful girl.  Either I'm going to kill her or I'm beginning to like her."
       -Han Solo, Star Wars Episode IV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 03:07:16 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 03:07:16 -0000
Subject: killing voldemort/ polyjuice affecting personality?dumbledore cold&calculating?
Message-ID: <98mn94+nn75@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14275

Someone wrote (sorry, I thought I'd kept the name, but I can't find 
it now):
<<How about this: Snape dies in the middle of BK. 7 to help Harry to
> escape back to Hogwarts; (thus giving Harry (and JKR) plenty of time
> to milk all possible angst out of it) Harry blame himself because if
> only he had used the killing curse on V, Snape would have been 
saved;
> big V attacks Hogwarts; tries to use the killing curse on either Ron
> or Hermione and this time Harry seizes the chance ...>>

Rebecca replied:

<<Except by using the Avada Kedavra curse on Voldemort, Harry would 
be no better than V. himself.  Using the Dark Arts (and that *is* 
what Avada Kedavra is, no question of it) to defeat the enemy would 
be unthinkable,both in terms of the moral framework of JKR's story 
and also in terms of the legal ramifications in the wizarding world 
<snip> 
In the end I think that one way or an other, V.'s own evil is going 
to turn against him and destroy him.<snip>  
That's the only kind of ending I can see really fitting in with the 
moral framework JKR has constructed up to this point.  She's already 
taken pains to point out to us in several places that love is 
stronger than evil and that forgiveness and mercy are powerful 
things -- I can't see her suddenly turning around in Book VI and 
saying, "But hey, it's OK for Harry to kill Voldemort because V.'s a 
really bad guy.">>

I agree with this completely.  I can't imagine that JKR would have 
pointed out that Crouch Sr approved the use of the unforgiveable 
curses against dark wizards but that (the real) Moody wouldn't use 
them if she meant for Harry to use them later.  It too clearly said 
to me that she feels that the ends do *not* justify those means.
So thanks, Rebecca, for expressing this for me.  I'd been trying to 
explain why the idea bugged me so much, and you explained it better 
than I could have managed.  If it did end with - "oh, well, it's okay 
to kill somebody if they're really BAD" without giving me a really 
really really good reason to accept the change in outlook, I think 
I'd be more disappointed than if Harry died, Hermione married Filch, 
Ginny became a magical porn star and Ron moved into the toilet with 
Myrtle.

I guess I find poetic justice (like you said above, his own evil will 
do him in somehow) more satisfying than vigilante justice.

On polyjuice potion:
Margaret Dean wrote:

<<It makes me wonder about the effects of using a Polyjuice Potion
> long-term, and how much of the false "Moody" actually =was= Moody 
and not an act.  Harry and Ron only stayed in Crabbe and Goyle form 
for an hour.  What would have happened if they'd kept it up?  Would 
they start "being" Crabbe and Goyle in more than just outward form?>>

I don't think that can be.  If Crouch Jr. was 'becoming' Moody as 
early as the Imperio lesson, I can't imagine that by the time of the 
3rd task there'd have been enough of Jr. left to actually go through 
with the plan.  Unless, of course, he was periodically reverting back 
to himself, I guess..  Hard to say.

 


On to Dumbledore now:

CMC wrote (and by the way, awesome character sketch thingy - lots of 
thought-provoking going on!):

<<At the same time, there is a calculating, ruthless side to 
Dumbledore that I think is best illuminated at the beginning of the 
story, when he chooses not to reveal why Harry must be raised by the 
cruel and petty Dursleys. Dumbledore strongly downplays their 
Muggleness, not sharing with either McGonagall or Hagrid the true 
nature of that family. When Hagrid finally meets Harry, he is clearly 
shocked - he expected Harry to be at least somewhat informed on his 
wizard heritage (and just who was responsible for not informing him 
> accurately?)>>

And then:
<<1. We all remember the chilling scene in GoF, when Barty Crouch Jr. 
> explains to Harry how each of his actions as Moody was coldly 
> calculated to advance Voldemort's agenda.  Will there someday be a 
> parallel scene where Dumbledore will explain his own coldly 
> calculated behind-the-scenes maneuverings to Harry?>>

meboriqua at a... replied:

<<Gosh, I just don't see Dumbledore that way at all.  Besides, aren't 
we making asumptions by describing him as cold and calculating?  I am 
a strong supporter of Dumbledore, but I don't think he knows 
everything!  
I believe that Dumbledore likes to give people the chance to learn on 
their own whenever possible, and Harry, more than anyone, can 
capitalize on that.  So far, he is one of Dumbledore's biggest 
success stories. >>

I agree with this assessment.  First, I don't believe that Dumbledore 
knew the Dursleys would be so terrible.  Nor that Mrs. Figg knew 
fully what was being done to Harry.  She clearly never broached the 
subject of being a wizard with him, or he'd have remembered it at 
some point.  All we know is that she occasionally babysat him.  
Harry's not big on sharing, and the Dursley's aren't about to 
advertise the fact that they're abusive (sticks out nearly as much as 
having magic in the family, after all.  Not very muggle-respectable).
Dumbledore, Hagrid and McGonagall all knew they were muggles, but 
there's nothing to say that any of them knew they were cruel and 
horrible muggles before Hagrid met them in person.  I still believe 
the blood relationship played a part in keeping Harry safe, and that, 
coupled with the desire to sheild him from his fame in the wizarding 
world, was the main impetus for leaving him with the Dursleys.  
I don't think Dumbledore purposely left Harry with a pair of abusive 
cretins, and while he may have come to realize at some point that 
they were less than the ideal foster parents for Harry, their home 
was, for some reason, the safest place for him to be.  And as for the 
invisibility cloak... it belonged to Harry.  His father left it for 
him, and while Dumbledore may have been pleased that Harry made use 
of it, it wasn't for him to keep it from Harry anyway.

<< 5. Voldy loves nothing more than to talk about himself (see 
Chapters 32-34 in GoF).   By contrast, most of what we know of 
Dumbledore's past was on the back of a trading card.  What is the 
significance of Dumbledore's consistent refusal to talk about himself?
>>

Refusal sounds to me like an overstatement.  The mirror of erised 
question, as Harry realized later, was a very personal question, and 
therefore it would be reasonable for someone not to answer (although 
he may have told the truth, we don't know) directly.  If he really 
didn't want anyone to know anything about his past, then it *would* 
be rather strange if he deliberately allowed Harry to see into his 
pensieve.  Not that I'm sure he did that on purpose, as he'd have had 
to know ahead of time that Harry would be there, and that he would 
notice the cupboard open, and that of all the things inside the 
cupboard, he'd snoop into the pensieve, and...
Of course he may have left it open sort of on the off-chance, and 
been pleased that Harry *did* find it.  I wouldn't rule that out.  

I guess what I'm saying is that I think Dumbledore is human.  I think 
he's a very wise human, but I don't think that he's been coldly 
manipulating Harry's every move since 1981.  If he were, Harry would 
be less interesting than Pinnochio, and we could've just called the 
stories 'Albus Dumbledore and the ...'.
I do think he's as sly/clever as he is wise, however, and I'm sure 
he's done whatever he could behind the scenes to help Harry learn 
what he needs to learn.  I think he has allowed Harry to go into 
dangerous situations, but I don't think he's ever deliberately 
manipulated an unknowing Harry into such danger.  I guess I base that 
on the way he was in GoF with Sirius, Severus, Hagrid, etc.  He asked 
each of them to go into dangerous situations to help the cause, but 
not without them each fully understanding the implications.  I don't 
think he's pure as the driven snow, but neither do I think he uses 
people to his own ends.  It just doesn't jive with what I know of 
JKR's world.  The Crouch Srs of her world do that sort of thing, not 
the Dumbledores.  Of coures, maybe that's my world I've created from 
hers, but for now, I'm sticking with it ;)


<<10. Dumbledore tells Harry that the one thing Voldemort cannot 
> understand is love.  Does Dumbledore understand love?  How does he 
> demonstrate (or fail to demonstrate) it?>>

Depends on how you define love, I guess.  I like the definition in 
the Bible, so going by that, I think he does pretty well.  He's 
reasonably patient and kind, not particularly envious or boastful, 
not proud or rude or self-seeking, he isn't easily angered (Harry 
says he never saw him truly angry until he charged in at Crouch Jr. 
In GoF, I think).  And he has demonstrated with Snape and with others 
that he keeps no record of wrongs.  Doesn't delight in evil, our 
Dumbledore.  The rejoicing with the truth... that one might be 
debatable, I guess, as Caius did make a pretty good case, but "always 
protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perserveres..." seem to 
be at least fairly in-character for him.

Even if I don't go by that definition, I do very much believe that he 
understands love.  I think he demonstrates it with Hagrid most 
especially.  His patience and fatherly care for Hagrid for all these 
years are one of the more touching aspects of the books for me.  I 
can't imagine what would have become of Hagrid had Dumbledore not 
taken him under his wing.  Hagrid is the type of person who, yes, 
tends to make foolish mistakes, but who, given the chance, will live 
up to expectations of him or die trying.  Dumbledore saw that in him, 
and chose to hold high expectations for him (see his resonse to 
McGonagall at Privet Drive).  I also believe the time and council he 
gives to Harry are quite loving.

So I guess the possibility is that I'm just an emotional sap who 
wants to believe in the goodness of people.  Oh well, if I'm 
delusional, at least I'm happy *handspringing across the room making 
whoop whoop noises a la Daffy Duck*

Kimberly





From purdymango1 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 03:54:50 2001
From: purdymango1 at yahoo.com (Teek)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 03:54:50 -0000
Subject: Dates in QTA/FB (was have books in hand)
In-Reply-To: <98m1gj+qr70@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98mq2a+61ti@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14276

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Heidi wrote:
> 
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > S
> > > P
> > > A
> > > C
> > > E
> > Maybe there are lots of copies of QTA in the Hogwarts library so 
that 
> there *are* long gaps between each of these signouts, in which case 
> O. Wood could've signed it out in 1994, C. Diggory in 1995, H. 
Potter 
> in 2001 even though there are only a couple dozen names total.
> 
> Or maybe this copy got retired in 1996 and has been sitting on the 
> storage-room shelf with H. Potter 3/11/96 as the most recent 
patron.  
> That still seems to leave long gaps between signouts though.

How about the fact that the books have been checked out throughout 
July and August, even though they belong to the school library? Can 
students owl in and have books owled back to them while on vacation? 
Is the library open as a public library to residents of Hogsmead? 
Maybe the students listed in the summer live nearby? Couldn't be, as 
C. Diggory (presumably Cedric, though debatable) checks it out July 
3. 

I suspect someone might not have given this TOO much thought, or 
somehow JKR's input got befuddled

... Has anyone ever done handwriting anaylsis of the characters? Are 
the handwritings done by JKR or just someone in the typsetting 
department? (For all the books, not just these.)

And I for one thing these are absolutely positively adorable. And 
Irma Pince is SUCH a perfect name. JKR must have so much fun with 
these. 

Harry Potter Loves <strike>Moaning Myrtle</strike> - Teek





From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 07:02:48 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 07:02:48 -0000
Subject: killing voldemort/ polyjuice affecting personality?dumbledore cold&calculating?
In-Reply-To: <98mn94+nn75@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98n52o+qn3l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14277

I wrote that scenario -- mainly as a throw away possibility.  I guess 
it's kind of like asking whether assasinating Hitler in 1939 would be 
wrong.
I think I've been influenced by the philosophy approach in my ethics 
class, (Utilitarianism -- if anyone is interested).  Coincidentally, 
we were discussing action/inaction in the class and the lecturer 
offered a good argument on why there is no difference between killing 
and letting people die through inaction.  Both are conscious choice 
of taking a human life.

I like the poetic justice thing but it just seems, as somebody said, 
taking the easy way out.  Like it or not, in real life, evil 
*usually* doesn't cause its own downfall.  It does require actions 
(somtimes cruel actions) to curb evil.  But I guess it all up to JKR.






From rainesj at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 07:12:36 2001
From: rainesj at hotmail.com (Justin Raines)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 07:12:36 -0000
Subject: question about SS and Snape
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010313180203.00a88320@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <98n5l4+a0eo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14278

Another question I have been pondering along these lines is when 
Voldie possessed Quirrell in the first book, Snape seemed to be a key 
figure blocking him from carrying out his evil intentions.  ( I can't 
give specific examples, as I have loaned my friend to get him 
hooked.)  Wouldn't Voldie have it in for Snape after that.  I take it 
that when he turned double agent for Dumbledore, that the other Death 
Eaters must have found out about it.  Karkaroff at least did because 
when Harry looked in the Pensieve in GoF, he heard Dumbledore vouch 
for Snape in front of Karkaroff.  It all comes down to who Voldie 
meant when he said one will be punished and one will be killed.  I am 
assuming that Snape is the one that would be punished, because 
otherwise, if what Dumbledore sent him to do was to see Voldie, then 
he would have been sending him to his Death, and I am sure the JKR 
would do better than that if she wanted to kill Snape.  So back to 
the original point, isn't Voldie going to find out that Snape ratted 
everyone out?

Justin




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 07:35:47 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:35:47 -0800
Subject: a cure for werewolfs?
References: <98gnff+ilv3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007201c0ac59$63c81e20$dd0c173f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14279

I am in the middle of re-reading the Chamber of Secrets and noticed
that Lockhart says, "he performed the immensely complex Homorphus
Charm" and the werewolf turned back into a man, thus "delievered them
[the villagers] from the monthly terror of werewolf attacks."

Yet, in Prisoner of Azkaban, we learn that there is no cure for
werewolfs. Snape is brewing a potion, which obviously on he can do, to
reduce the severity of the transformation to a mere wolf who will curl
up and sleep.

O.K. so we know that Lockhart didn't do what he said he did in his
books, but in towards the end of CoS he admits that other people did
it and he got the story, then performed a memory charm to make them
forget and he could claim the fame.

This makes me wonder, is who is right? Is there a cure for werewolfs?
And if so, why didn't Lupin get cured? I think that Dumbledore or
McGonagall would be able to perform such a charm.

Ideas? Suggestions? Answers?

Rena



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From SoSilently at aol.com  Wed Mar 14 08:58:50 2001
From: SoSilently at aol.com (SoSilently at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 03:58:50 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Red/Green in HP (was: Re: Chapter 34 Summary)
Message-ID: <d9.1186e395.27e08cca@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14280

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> I think there must be some meaning with red & green in this series, but darn
> if I can come up with anything that makes much sense.  Harry has green eyes;
> Voldemort has red eyes (how weird is *that*!).  Green light seems to be
> associated with evil curses; red light/red things seem to emit frequently 
from
> Harry's wand.  The Dark Mark is a green skull.  Hmmm .....

Something I noticed in re-reading CoS today - this is (I believe) the first 
time we see  anyone cast Expelliarmus:

"Both of them swung their wands above their heads and pointed them at their 
opponent; Snape cried: "Expelliarmus!" There was a dazzling flash of scarlet 
light and Lockhart was blasted off his feet: He flew backward off the stage, 
smashed into the wall, and slid down it to sprawl on the floor." (Ch. 11, 
'The Dueling Club')

In this case, it's likely that the red light from Harry's wand in the duel 
with Voldemort was just a result of the spell he chose. Perhaps certain 
colors are just tied to certain spells - although, other than this and Avada 
Kedavra, I don't seem to remember any others associated with colors.

-chloe



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 11:23:57 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:23:57 -0000
Subject: QTA/FB
Message-ID: <98nkcd+75eg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14281

D
O
N
'
T

W
A
N
T

T
O

S
P
O
I
L

I
T

!
!
!

A big thanks to Natalie for figuring out the exchange rate, especially 
the prices of the various goods.  A trip on the Knight Bus is quite 
reasonable, even once you've added in the cost of anti-nausea 
medication.

I just love the fact that the Chudley Cannons are the Red Sox of 
Quidditch.  That fits Ron's character exactly right (no wonder he 
feels like everything of his is rubbish...the martyr-complex of a 
long-suffering fan).

Penny: 

>"4.  Was Harry violating the 6th rule of Quidditch when he pulled
>out his wand to perform the Patronus Charm on the "Dementors" in PoA? 
 Were
>they "members of the crowd" for that purpose??"

Simon:

>Well I guess it could be argued that they were not any of the people 
the
>rules say it cannot be used against. <snip> 
>Not a member of the crowd (this is the most questionable).
>Seems like the rule has a little loophole there.

Let's set aside the fact that the "Dementors" are actually students; 
Harry can't be expected to know that.  So:  the Dementors are highly 
dangerous and are not supposed to be on school property; they are at 
that moment, technically, "members of the crowd," but that's like 
saying an escaped murderer who happens to have stopped in to watch the 
game is a member of the crowd (hmmm...so he is! <g>).  If you saw him 
there you might be violating the rules by using your wand on him, but 
come on, who would fault you?

So I could see a complaint being brought against Harry for violating 
the rule, but it being thrown out because of the special 
circumstances.

Re: all the missing animals:  Dumbledore doesn't say so, but this must 
be a drastically edited version of FB.  The actual schoolbook is 
probably a 3-inch tome.  I was looking forward to reading about 
Boggarts, though.

MC wrote:

>isn't there a Goblin Laison...department? Or was it
>something else? And what about the Expirimental Charms? In GoF, the
>guy with horns?

Maybe they're loose about referring to some sub-departments as 
"departments."  Just as one might refer to the Census or Fish & 
Wildlife as "departments" when, properly speaking, they're subgroups 
of the Departments of Commerce and the Interior, respectively.

Amy Z
having fun with the US Gov't section of the almanac

----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "What is this thing?" said Moody, drawing the Marauder's Map out 
 of his pocket and unfolding it.
   "Map of Hogwarts," said Harry. . . .
   "Merlin's beard," Moody whispered, staring at the map, his magical 
 eye going haywire.  "This . . . this is some map, Potter!" 
   "Yeah, it's . . . quite useful," Harry said. 
                                       -HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------------------------






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 11:27:18 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:27:18 -0000
Subject: When worlds collide
Message-ID: <98nkim+ei6j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14282

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

B
L
A
H

B
L
A
H

B
L
A
H

More thoughts inspired by the forewords:

The trouble with REALLY bringing together the two worlds, HP and ours, 
is that ours has fictional books about HP in it.  If our world is 
their world, then Dumbledore will soon start reading about this 
fiction phenomenon whose heroes are the people of his very real world. 
 Some fanfictions deal with this explicitly and explain how Muggle JKR 
(or witch JKR) wrote the books pretending, or perhaps believing, that 
they were fiction.  

If Harry really gave permission to reprint his FB in 2001, no 
surprise; he is beyond embarrassment at this point.  We already know 
countless private thoughts of his from Rowling's books, and he knows 
it because, for heaven's sake, half the kids at Dudley's school read 
HP voraciously.  They think it's fiction, but that's little comfort to 
the boy whose secret crush is immortalized in the fastest-selling book 
in history.

An alternative is that the two worlds are exactly the same *except* 
that the Muggle world of the books doesn't have a bestselling author 
named J.K. Rowling in it.  I thought about this when I first saw Star 
Trek IV: The Voyage Home, the one where they come back to 1980's San 
Francisco to find humpback whales.  The San Francisco they return to 
is just like the one we know--except for the very odd fact that it's 
clear that no one in THAT SF has ever seen Star Trek.  In the real San 
Francisco, far from thinking Spock is a weirdo, people would be 
rushing up to shake his hand and examine his ears.  The plot works 
fine if 20th century San Franciscans have never heard of Star Trek--it 
would fall apart if they had.

So maybe when Dumbledore reads the Times it has all the news of the 
day...but no mention of a series of books about a kid named Harry 
Potter?  

Do the forewords mention JKR, or just Comic Relief?  (The former would 
seem to contradict my theory; the latter lets it stand.)

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------
 "Winky is having trouble adjusting, Harry 
 Potter," squeaked Dobby confidentially.
                 -HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 11:32:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:32:34 -0000
Subject: Handwriting in FB/QTA (was Dates)
In-Reply-To: <98mq2a+61ti@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98nksi+ghii@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14283

Y
O
U

P
O
O
R

T
H
I
N
G,

G
O

G
E
T

T
H
E

B
O
O
K
S!

Teek wrote:

> ... Has anyone ever done handwriting anaylsis of the characters? Are 
> the handwritings done by JKR or just someone in the typsetting 
> department? (For all the books, not just these.)

Isn't Dumbledore's signature great?  Much better than the "loopy 
handwriting" font used in the US edition of SS.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
"You've got just as much right as wizards to be unhappy!"
                           -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 12:04:11 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:04:11 -0000
Subject: a cure for werewolfs?
In-Reply-To: <007201c0ac59$63c81e20$dd0c173f@rena>
Message-ID: <98nmnr+if06@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14284

Rena wrote:

> I am in the middle of re-reading the Chamber of Secrets and noticed
> that Lockhart says, "he performed the immensely complex Homorphus
> Charm" and the werewolf turned back into a man, thus "delievered 
them
> [the villagers] from the monthly terror of werewolf attacks."
> 
<snip>
> 
> O.K. so we know that Lockhart didn't do what he said he did in his
> books, but in towards the end of CoS he admits that other people did
> it and he got the story, then performed a memory charm to make them
> forget and he could claim the fame.
> <snip>

> Ideas? Suggestions? Answers?

Wow, I never noticed this.

Here are two theories:

(1) Lockhart is lying, not only about his having performed the charm 
himself, but about the whole story.  He only tells this to his 
students, IIRC.  A bunch of 2nd-years might not know that lycanthropy 
is incurable.  (Though Hermione Granger is one of them . . . hmmm.)

(2) (a better theory IMO)  There *is* such a charm (performed only by 
people who know what they're doing, not Lockhart) but what GL doesn't 
tell us is its devastating effects on the afflicted person.  He/she 
ceases to be a werewolf, but also has his/her personality wiped 
entirely blank.  It's the Ho*morphus* Charm:  you keep the form of a 
human, yes, but your mind and spirit are erased.  Most werewolves, 
including Lupin, opt to continue suffering lycantrhopy and remain 
themselves (27 days out of 28, anyway).

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------
 "This is the weirdest thing we've ever
 done," Harry said fervently.
       --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-----------------------------------------




From nykteris at polbox.com  Wed Mar 14 11:53:55 2001
From: nykteris at polbox.com (nykteris)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:53:55 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: spouse theory
References: <2.2.32.20010313194841.006b05f4@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <012601c0ac7f$b799ade0$db604cd5@default>

No: HPFGUIDX 14285


----- Original Message -----
From: Rose Woofenden <rosewoof at earthlink.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore/Snape/spouse theory


> >It makes me wonder who is married and where these spouses/families
> >reside. It's conceivable that the Hogwarts has apartments located
> >somewhere on the grounds. Just as it is conceivable the married
> >professors live in Hogsmeade.
> >
> >>From what little we know in the 4 books, McGonagall has broken up a
> >Gryffindor party while dressed in her dressing gown. Which gives me
> >the impression that her apartments are near the Gryffindor tower. I
> >could imagine hubby telling her "I need to apparate early in the
> >morning for that meeting in Bangkok. Please, tell those children to go
> >to bed. And if they don't listen to you, I'll go there myself!"
> >
> >As for Snape, he too has been walking about Hogwarts at night in his
> >night shirt. So I suspect he doesn't live too far from the Slytherin
> >dungeon. I have two feelings about husband Snape. Either he's totally
> >henpecked by his wife or he's the epitome of a loving husband and
> >doting father (if there are children involved).
>
> I think it would/could perhaps be different for Snape and McGonagall then
> the other teachers, since they are heads of the houses. As the head of the
> house they would probably be required to live near or in the dorms, much
> like a dorm mother in a US college.  They would need to be there to settle
> late night pillow fights and send students to be etc. It wouldn't quite
work
> if they lived in Hogsmede.

And how about an idea that McGonagall *and* Snape *are* married? ;-)))

Katarzyna






From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Mar 14 12:23:35 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:23:35 -0000
Subject: Red/Green in HP (was: Re: Chapter 34 Summary)
In-Reply-To: <d9.1186e395.27e08cca@aol.com>
Message-ID: <98nns7+481m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14286


> Perhaps certain 
> colors are just tied to certain spells - although, other than this 

Clearly certain spells emit certain colors of light. 

Also, as long as we're on the subject of colors, notice that the 
Gryffidor colors, red and gold, shower out of Harry's wand when he 
waves it in Ollivanders. Clearly that was a wand meant for him--and 
that he was meant to be in Gryffindor. 

And of course, red and gold are the colors of the plumage of Fawkes 
the Phoenix as well... 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which doesn't have a color page yet, but probably should
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon





From vaile2000 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 12:37:31 2001
From: vaile2000 at hotmail.com (Tina Smart)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:37:31 +1100
Subject: Snape as Death Eater
Message-ID: <F227egIqunLOyDc41W200009872@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14287

Ok, now obviously I haven't gotten the message across that I had wanted to. 
I agree with Margaret who said that basically Snape isn't that nice. He has 
a bad past (that we don't know of yet) and can be cruel and even vengeful. 
But I still think that there is more to it than that.
As Katy said, it's a bit like Darcy in Austen's P&P. From the beginning, 
he's misunderstood, misread. And through his own faults of course, but none 
the less misunderstood.
I think we can't doubt his loyalty to Dumbledore, but I think that his past 
has more to do with DD than what it seems like on the surface. I think they 
are more mingled, it's more complex...
Anyway, through all this, what I originally meant has come out of me. That's 
a good thing. So thanks :)

Tina.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 13:46:10 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:46:10 -0000
Subject: Info overload (was Red/Green)
In-Reply-To: <98nns7+481m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98nsn2+mqsq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14288

> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon
> which doesn't have a color page yet, but probably should

Plus all that stuff from two new books, plus movie info . . . poor 
Steve, you can't possibly keep up on your own.

Fortunately, I have the ideal solution.  You need an assistant.  How 
about getting a grant to hire a Lexicon employee (*clears throat*)?  
Hint as to possible candidate:  I only work 3/4 time; the other 1/4 of 
my time is spent on HP anyway...

Amy "It never hurts to try" Z
  
----------------------------------------------
 Harry liked this clock.  It was completely
 useless if you wanted to know the time, but
 otherwise very informative.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 14 13:55:06 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 07:55:06 -0600
Subject: Crookshanks
Message-ID: <005101c0ac8e$61a04200$0814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14289


Has anyone covered this yet? Can Crookshanks be an animagi like Scabbers? What about Pigwidgeon? (I mean, he was sent to Harry by Sirius) Or even Hedwig?

Doreen, wondering


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 14 14:04:43 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:04:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pettigrew the rat 
References: <98m4kq+fm36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005f01c0ac8f$b915fa60$0814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14290

<snip>
Although, one could argue that Pettigrew has a lot of rat like
qualities to begin with.

Rebecca

Did he have the rat-like qualities to begin with? Or did he develop them
after he spent so much time as a rat?

Doreen




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From ender_w at msn.com  Wed Mar 14 12:19:25 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 07:19:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SPOILERS FB
References: <98mjdq+bqpf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c0ac81$03a9eb40$4ee7183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 14291


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:01 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SPOILERS FB


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
  > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
  > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
  > > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fgcjnk at b... wrote:
  > > > > S
  > > > > P
  > > > > O
  > > > > I
  > > > > L
  > > > > E
  > > > > R
  > > > > 
  > > > > S
  > > > > P
  > > > > A
  > > > > C
  > > > > E
  > > > > 
  > > > > a
  > > > > n
  > > > > d
  > > > > 
  > > > > a
  > > > > 
  > > > > b
  > > > > i
  > > > > t
  > > > > 
  > > > > m
  > > > > o
  > > > > r
  > > > > e
  > > > > 
  >>If I wanted to be pedantic, I would say that the noninclusion of 
  >>dementors gives credence to the argument made by myself and others 
  >>over the past year, that they are created when a soul is sucked out, 
  >>and therefore, Barty Crouch may return in dementor form >>>>(ick!)


  If that's the case (and I very much like that theory), then does the Dementor who sucks out the soul go through any sort of transformation now that he "posesses" the soul?  Or is that soul nothing more than food to him?
  When reading about the Crups (little, Jack Russell-like dogs), I misread the line about having to cut off their tails in puppy hood.  On my first reading I thought it said "Crup owners are legally obliged to remove the Crup's crap..."
  That, of course, led to all sorts of interesting ideas about a variety of magical pooper scooping devices.

  ender ....who has wanted a crup for some time now.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bohners at pobox.com  Wed Mar 14 14:24:11 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:24:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as Death Eater
References: <F2403OJXsNQptgFrYIL00001764@hotmail.com> <3AAE893A.CE5F69BD@erols.com>
Message-ID: <0e3901c0ac92$72e225c0$4a8f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14292

Margaret Dean wrote:

> I dunno . . . I think it gives Snape more depth if he's allowed
> to be nasty as part of his true personality, rather than it being
> a put-on of any kind.  (That's my one problem with the otherwise
> excellent and moving fic "The Potion-Master's Apprentice.")

I agree with you, actually:  there is that aspect to him, and if I write a
sequel I'm going to talk about it, specifically as it relates to Harry and
the Marauders (for whom, I do agree, Snape really *does* have some nasty
vicious feelings).  It just didn't come up in this one.

I think Snape resents that James Potter's son is so crucial to Dumbledore's
plans to defeat Voldemort (as I think Harry really is) and that Dumbledore
puts so much faith in Harry, shows him so much trust and gives him such
freedom to act.  What would have happened in any of the first four books if
Harry had screwed up?  Something pretty dire, for sure.  I think Snape knows
that, and it really ticks him off because

a) he wants to see Voldemort defeated and as far as he's concerned, there's
too much at stake to play games with uncertainties;

and ironically

b) Harry *hasn't* screwed up so far, which means that Dumbledore's faith in
him might not be excessive or misplaced after all.

I also agree with those who say Snape is jealous of Dumbledore's closeness
with Harry, because Dumbledore's friendship and trust is one of the few
things that Snape really prizes in his own life, and it's hard for him to
share it with the son of the man he always envied.

Just my thoughts on the subject.
--
Rebecca




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Mar 14 09:17:47 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:17:47 EST5EDT
Subject: Heads of House
Message-ID: <15A1037331@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14293

>If Hogwarts is modeled on the normal English public school, the
>teachers who are heads of houses would sleep in the same tower 
>as
>their houses.  They're supposed to be available in case of trouble 
>or
>medical emergency.  Probably have a hidden door or something.


You know, that's a good point.  McGonagall seems to be there 
awfully quick when they're up late making noise, doesn't she?  But 
it says she comes through the portrait like everyone 
else......hmmm...  Being raised in the traditional American school 
system, I know nothing about boarding schools except that around 
here you had to be either very naughty or very wealthy to go to one.

Oh well.  Interesting thought.


Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From margdean at erols.com  Wed Mar 14 15:56:20 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:56:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: question about SS and Snape
References: <98n5l4+a0eo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AAF94A4.F186C181@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14294

Justin Raines wrote:
> 
> Another question I have been pondering along these lines is when
> Voldie possessed Quirrell in the first book, Snape seemed to be a key
> figure blocking him from carrying out his evil intentions.  ( I can't
> give specific examples, as I have loaned my friend to get him
> hooked.)  Wouldn't Voldie have it in for Snape after that.  I take it
> that when he turned double agent for Dumbledore, that the other Death
> Eaters must have found out about it.  Karkaroff at least did because
> when Harry looked in the Pensieve in GoF, he heard Dumbledore vouch
> for Snape in front of Karkaroff.  It all comes down to who Voldie
> meant when he said one will be punished and one will be killed.  I am
> assuming that Snape is the one that would be punished, because
> otherwise, if what Dumbledore sent him to do was to see Voldie, then
> he would have been sending him to his Death, and I am sure the JKR
> would do better than that if she wanted to kill Snape.  So back to
> the original point, isn't Voldie going to find out that Snape ratted
> everyone out?

I suspect he already knows, and does have a contract out on Snape
at the moment.  However, I also suspect that means that
Dumbledore was NOT sending Snape to contact Voldemort at the end
of Book IV.  I liked the idea someone came up with that Snape was
the contact for some =other= double agents, and was going to see
what he could do about activating that network again.  That's
probably sufficiently dangerous if he couldn't be sure of these
people's current loyalties, or whether V. had an eye on them too!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From jillcrewe at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 16:03:03 2001
From: jillcrewe at yahoo.com (Kendal Hall)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:03:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as Death Eater/Snape as Darcy?/newbie
In-Reply-To: <98m3qk+v58u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010314160303.13407.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14295

[previous] This astute reader believes that JKR is
sort of basing Snape on Mr. Darcy from Pride and
Prejudice...Darcy is first judged to be arrogant,
unlikable, and almost immoral -- but turns out to be
the opposite and ends up the hero of the book. It will
be *very* interesting to see what happens with him in
5/6/7. Cheers, Katy.

[new] I could see the parallel in that Darcy is
restricted by his prideful upbringing and society to
present a certain face to the world, while Snape is
restricted by his lonely, picked on past, secretive
nature, and his perilious double agent existence. 

But while society might give Darcy a cold shoulder for
putting a foot wrong, Snape faces more deadly
consequences should he perceived as ever favoring our
boy HP, or even his cohorts (and I believe he is
beholden to keeping HP safe, even though I believe he
resents and even hates him). Draco during summer
break: "That Snape has really gone soft on the perfect
Harry Potter." Lucius: "Oh, really? Hmm. I'll pass
that along..." Therefore, it will be interesting to
see how Ms. Rowling develops Snape and explores what
is churning in that busy brain behind those black
eyes. Jealousy, rage, and pain (I think these are all
part of Snape's past) mixed with a deep sense of
personal honor and an iron will. Good stuff. Wonder
who will be/was his Lizzie?

[previous] Also, have to introduce myself -- I'm a
fellow Harry-Potter-obsessed "grown-up" who was very
excited to find this board. 

[new] I am also a grownup delighted to find my HP
obsession is shared by those old enough to worry about
possibly taxes and mortgages and such. I just finished
GoF March 17. Cheers to you Katy and everyone, JC.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 14 16:04:33 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:04:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] a cure for werewolfs?
References: <98gnff+ilv3@eGroups.com> <007201c0ac59$63c81e20$dd0c173f@rena>
Message-ID: <00f501c0aca0$76de5140$0814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14296


<snip>
Lockhart says, "he performed the immensely complex Homorphus
Charm" and the werewolf turned back into a man, thus "delievered them
[the villagers] from the monthly terror of werewolf attacks."
<snip>
Ideas? Suggestions? Answers?

Rena

I think Lockhart was just blowing smoke up our robes, as usual.  Even though
he may have witnessed others performing some of the feats that he later
claimed as his own in his books, I don't think he had the slightest clue
about any of them. I think his credibility is quite lacking, even to the
point where he probably made up a good portion of his material in his books.

Doreen, who never liked Lockhart because he reminds her of her ex-husband



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 14 16:21:40 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:21:40 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: spouse theory
References: <2.2.32.20010313194841.006b05f4@earthlink.net> <012601c0ac7f$b799ade0$db604cd5@default>
Message-ID: <010e01c0aca2$db86d520$0814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14297

<snip>
And how about an idea that McGonagall *and* Snape *are* married? ;-)))

Katarzyna

Somebody snap that girl's wand! What a horrible idea!!! Snape and
McGonagall? ewwww Now, McGonagall and Dumbledore ... yes ... Snape? Never!
*evil snicker* I see Snape as more the Veela type. Maybe he sneaks one into
his Hogwarts apartment.... and that explains why he is so pesky when he has
to go check out what the children are up to when they are out and about
without permission.

Doreen, who ducks and hides from the Snape factors in the group



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>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
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From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 14 16:24:18 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:24:18 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Red/Green in HP (was: Re: Chapter 34 Summary)
References: <98nns7+481m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011601c0aca3$388a2c40$0814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14298




> Perhaps certain
> colors are just tied to certain spells - although, other than this

Maybe someone should do a complete color list ... listing all the lines from
all the books when certain colors are mentioned. I came up with quite a long
and interesting list of twelves...

Doreen




From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Mar 14 16:42:28 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (indigo at indigosky.net)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:42:28 -0000
Subject: polyjuice affecting personality?
In-Reply-To: <98mn94+nn75@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98o71k+mu4g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14299

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> 
> On polyjuice potion:
> Margaret Dean wrote:
> 
> <<It makes me wonder about the effects of using a Polyjuice Potion
> > long-term, and how much of the false "Moody" actually =was= Moody 
> and not an act.  Harry and Ron only stayed in Crabbe and Goyle form 
> for an hour.  What would have happened if they'd kept it up?  Would 
> they start "being" Crabbe and Goyle in more than just outward form?
>>
> 
> I don't think that can be.  If Crouch Jr. was 'becoming' Moody as 
> early as the Imperio lesson, I can't imagine that by the time of 
> the 3rd task there'd have been enough of Jr. left to actually go 
> through with the plan.  Unless, of course, he was periodically 
> reverting back to himself, I guess..  Hard to say.
> 

Hullo!  New member popping her head in! 

About Barty Jr. and the Polyjuice making him more like Moody: 

I would venture to say that's possible.  

Barty Jr. had to *sleep* after all, unless he woke up every 59 
minutes to make sure he quaffed another draught of Polyjuice Potion.

If he slept the night straight through, or took any nap at all longer 
than 59 minutes, he'd revert to Barty Jr. until he took another hit 
of the potion. 

And he had his invisibility cloak with him, we know. He was under it 
when he killed Daddums Barty Sr., yes?  So if he slept under the 
invisibility cloak (which he might even have been used to while 
living under his father's curse at home)  no one would've been the 
wiser.

The only thing that would've given away that it was Barty Jr. 
pretending to be Moody was the Marauder's map. Which, my guess is, is 
why he asked to borrow it from Harry -- so Harry could not 
spot "Moody"  suddenly showing up labeled "Barty Crouch, Jr." 

Does that make sense? 

Vootie,

Indigo







From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Wed Mar 14 16:47:43 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:47:43 -0000
Subject: a cure for werewolfs?
In-Reply-To: <98nmnr+if06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98o7bf+r80q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14300

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Rena wrote:
> 
> > that Lockhart says, "he performed the immensely complex Homorphus
> > Charm" and the werewolf turned back into a man, thus "delievered 
> them
> > [the villagers] from the monthly terror of werewolf attacks."
> > 
> <snip>
> > 
> > O.K. so we know that Lockhart didn't do what he said he did in his
> > books, but in towards the end of CoS he admits that other people 
did
> > it and he got the story, then performed a memory charm to make 
them
> > forget and he could claim the fame.
> > <snip>
> 
> > Ideas? Suggestions? Answers?
 
> Here are two theories:
> 
> (1) Lockhart is lying, not only about his having performed the charm 
> himself, but about the whole story.  He only tells this to his 
> students, IIRC.  A bunch of 2nd-years might not know that 
lycanthropy 
> is incurable.  (Though Hermione Granger is one of them . . . hmmm.)
> 
> (2) (a better theory IMO)  There *is* such a charm (performed only 
by 
> people who know what they're doing, not Lockhart) but what GL 
doesn't 
> tell us is its devastating effects on the afflicted person.  He/she 
> ceases to be a werewolf, but also has his/her personality wiped 
> entirely blank.  It's the Ho*morphus* Charm:  you keep the form of a 
> human, yes, but your mind and spirit are erased.  Most werewolves, 
> including Lupin, opt to continue suffering lycantrhopy and remain 
> themselves (27 days out of 28, anyway).
> 
Or a third theory....

The charm had just been developed, the developer told Lockhart all 
about it hoping for wider publicity and use for the new charm, but 
Lockhart (selfish git) wiped his memory and the secret behind the 
charm was lost.




From NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com  Wed Mar 14 16:54:16 2001
From: NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com (NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:54:16 EST
Subject: Children's Books To Be Reissued
Message-ID: <85.8220ec2.27e0fc38@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14301

Children's Books To Be Reissued



NEW YORK (AP) - Harry Potter fans look out: Some new Muggles are coming to 
town. Or are they old ones? 

``The Legend of Rah and the Muggles,'' whose author is suing J.K. Rowling for 
stealing her ideas, will be reissued by Thurman House in May, the publisher 
announced Wednesday. The book was first published in 1984 and went out of 
print a few years later, long before the Potter series began. 

Author Nancy Stouffer said in a recent interview she had a hard time finding 
a new publisher because some feared her book would be seen as ripping off the 
Potter stories. 

``I have been accused of stealing; some children believe I am the one that 
followed J.K. Rowling,'' she said. 

Terms of the contract were not disclosed, but several out-of-print Stouffer 
books are expected to come out by the end of 2002. 

In ``Rah and the Muggles,'' muggles are little people who care for two 
orphaned boys who magically turn their dark homeland into a happy place. In 
Rowling's books, ``muggles'' is the word wizards use for humans. 

Stouffer's book has a character named Lilly Potter; Rowling's books have a 
Lily Potter. The Larry Potter book had characters identified as ``Keeper of 
the Gardens''; Rowling's books have a ``Keeper of the Keys.'' 

Stouffer is the author of 13 books, which she said were created with the idea 
of licensing the characters. Her original publisher, Ande, went bankrupt in 
1987. 

A resident of Camp Hill, Pa., Stouffer filed her lawsuit last March in U.S. 
District Court in Philadelphia. The suit names Rowling and Scholastic Inc., 
the U.S. publisher of the Harry Potter books. Also cited are Time Warner 
Entertainment Co., which owns the film rights to two of Rowling's Potter 
books, and Mattel and Hasbro, both of whom have licenses to create and market 
related merchandise. 

Scholastic, Rowling and Time Warner filed their own lawsuit in November, 
asking a judge to rule that the Harry Potter books do not violate Stouffer's 
trademark and copyright. 

Thurman House is an affiliate of Ottenheimer Publishers Inc., a 110-year-old 
company based in Baltimore. 


AP-NY-03-14-01 1044EST


 



From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Wed Mar 14 16:56:32 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:56:32 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <005101c0ac8e$61a04200$0814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <98o7s0+pj1k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14302

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone covered this yet? Can Crookshanks be an animagi like 
Scabbers? What about Pigwidgeon? (I mean, he was sent to Harry by 
Sirius) Or even Hedwig?
> 
In GoF when Lupin describes watching the marauders map and seeing 
Peter Pettigrew, the description of what he sees kind of implies that 
Crookshanks does not show up on the map, whereas Peter and Sirius(the 
animagi) do.  Seems from this that animagi would show up, but beasts 
wouldn't.

Interestingly, when Harry is first given the map he does see Mrs 
Norris on it.  Does this imply something about Mrs Norris, or is it a 
inconsistancy, or did Lupin see Crookshanks on the map, but not 
mention it knowing he was just a pet.


Is there anything in the archives on this - I've looked through some, 
but... well they're big.

Florence




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 14 17:01:24 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:01:24 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: FBeasts: Wizarding World Governance,
In-Reply-To: <98m0o3+5kqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98o854+lgcp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14303

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Slytherin_Daughter at y... wrote:
> Hullo!
> Spoilers for FB
> 
> > L
> > O
> > R
> > R
> > A
> > 
> > L
> > O
> > R
> > R
> > A
> > 
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > 
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> > 
> 
> <snip>
> > Steve counts:
> > 
> > Dept of Magical Games and Sports
> > Dept of Magical Catastrophes
> > Dept of Accidental Magic Reversal
> > Dept of International Magical Cooperation
> > Dept of Magical Law Enforcement
> > Dept of Magical Transportation
> > Dept for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures
> > Dept of Mysteries
> > 
> > Is one of the above part of another (Accidental Magic Reversal part 
> of
> > Catastrophes)?
> > 
> > Don't wizards have *normal* mundane departments like Environment, 
> Health,
> > Home Office (aka Interior) etc? I'm particularly surprised there's 
> no
> > Health, especially with St Mungo's (and that other hospital too).
> > 
> > Anybody else have thoughts on this?
> > 
> 
> "Lorra" Spoiler space? Hmmm. Anyway - this might be MC being a dork 
> again, but isn't there a Goblin Laison...department? Or was it 
> something else? And what about the Expirimental Charms? In GoF, the 
> guy with horns? Hmmm. . . .I agree that it would only make sense if 
> there were some more practical departments, such as Heath. How 
> strange.

	What social services exist seem to be provided through  Regulation 
and Control for Magical Creatures since FB mentions a support office 
for Werewolves. I have a feeling that the MOM does very little in this 
area and that most Wizards rely on their family and House ties at need. 
This would explain why the wizards seem so clannish and why the Malfoys 
are so respected for their donations to good causes.
	On another note, with April 15 (income tax day here in the States) 
rolling around, I notice there seems to be no Department of the 
Exchequer, which I think provides the definitive answer to the fantasy 
vs. science fiction debate. A government that doesn't collect taxes? 
Now *that's* fantasy!
Pippin





From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Mar 14 17:06:55 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (indigo at indigosky.net)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:06:55 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <98o7s0+pj1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98o8ff+jru6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14304

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., fgcjnk at b... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > 
> > Has anyone covered this yet? Can Crookshanks be an animagi like 
> Scabbers? What about Pigwidgeon? (I mean, he was sent to Harry by 
> Sirius) Or even Hedwig?
> > 
> In GoF when Lupin describes watching the marauders map and seeing 
> Peter Pettigrew, the description of what he sees kind of implies
> that Crookshanks does not show up on the map, whereas Peter and 
> Sirius(the animagi) do.  Seems from this that animagi would show 
> up, but beasts wouldn't.
> 
> Interestingly, when Harry is first given the map he does see Mrs 
> Norris on it.  Does this imply something about Mrs Norris, or is it 
a 
> inconsistancy, or did Lupin see Crookshanks on the map, but not 
> mention it knowing he was just a pet.
> 
> 
> Is there anything in the archives on this - I've looked through 
> some,  but... well they're big.
> 
> Florence


Some ideas:

To see an ordinary animal on the Marauders' Map, you have to be 
actively concentrating on it. Harry knows what a thorn in the side 
Mrs. Norris is, so he was concerned about her location -- therefore 
the map showed him where she is.

Lupin, being a werewolf, probably gave off an aura of "I am a big 
scary predator and will eat you!"  to anything like a housecat, so he 
got to thinking of them as inconsequential to his plans, no obstacle 
to himself; so they never showed up on the map for him. 

Crookshanks was not really a concern to anyone save Ron -- and now we 
know why Crookshanks was after 'Scabbers'.  But on the other hand, 
Crookshanks seemed to be a feline sneakoscope, because he knew 
Scabbers was not all he seemed.  Crookshanks also knew where the knot 
to turn off the Whomping Willow was, and how to activate it. That 
doesn't seem very "ordinary cat" to me.

Hopefully that will all be answered soon.  I plan to reread PA after 
this weekend. I'm rereading SS/PS now, as backwork for a crossover HP 
fic I'm working on. 

Indigo





From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Wed Mar 14 17:07:22 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:07:22 -0000
Subject: QTA/FB
In-Reply-To: <98nkcd+75eg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98o8ga+ahd5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14305

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> D
> O
> N
> '
> T
> 
> W
> A
> N
> T
> 
> T
> O
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> 
> I
> T
> 
> !
> !
> !

> I just love the fact that the Chudley Cannons are the Red Sox of 
> Quidditch.  That fits Ron's character exactly right (no wonder he 
> feels like everything of his is rubbish...the martyr-complex of a 
> long-suffering fan).

Agreed - Totally in character

> >"4.  Was Harry violating the 6th rule of Quidditch when he pulled
> >out his wand to perform the Patronus Charm on the "Dementors" in 
PoA? 
>  Were
> >they "members of the crowd" for that purpose??"

> >Not a member of the crowd (this is the most questionable).
> >Seems like the rule has a little loophole there.
> 

I expect that the crowd are not allowed onto the pitch, so by being on 
the pitch they ceased to be memers of the crowd??

> Re: all the missing animals:  Dumbledore doesn't say so, but this 
must 
> be a drastically edited version of FB.  The actual schoolbook is 
> probably a 3-inch tome.  I was looking forward to reading about 
> Boggarts, though.
> 

Hmmm me too.

Florence




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Mar 14 17:07:56 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:07:56 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: FBeasts: Wizarding World Governance,
In-Reply-To: <98o854+lgcp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98o8hc+edmf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14306

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Slytherin_Daughter at y... wrote:
> > Hullo!
> > Spoilers for FB
> > 
> > > L
> > > O
> > > R
> > > R
> > > A
> > > 
> > > L
> > > O
> > > R
> > > R
> > > A
> > > 
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > 
> > > S
> > > P
> > > A
> > > C
> > > E
> > > 
> > 
> > <snip>
> > > Steve counts:
> > > 
> > > Dept of Magical Games and Sports
> > > Dept of Magical Catastrophes
> > > Dept of Accidental Magic Reversal
> > > Dept of International Magical Cooperation
> > > Dept of Magical Law Enforcement
> > > Dept of Magical Transportation
> > > Dept for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures
> > > Dept of Mysteries
> > > 
> > > Is one of the above part of another (Accidental Magic Reversal 
part 
> > of
> > > Catastrophes)?
> > > 
> > > Don't wizards have *normal* mundane departments like 
Environment, 
> > Health,
> > > Home Office (aka Interior) etc? I'm particularly surprised 
there's 
> > no
> > > Health, especially with St Mungo's (and that other hospital 
too).
> > > 
> > > Anybody else have thoughts on this?
> > > 
> > 

> 	On another note, with April 15 (income tax day here in the 
States) 
> rolling around, I notice there seems to be no Department of the 
> Exchequer, which I think provides the definitive answer to the 
fantasy 
> vs. science fiction debate. A government that doesn't collect 
taxes? 
> Now *that's* fantasy!


Pippin - not to burst your magical bubble (made with Drooble's Best 
Blowing Gum(tm)) but I would suspect that the Ministry Revenue 
Service is a subdepartment in the Department of Magical Law 
Enforcement, similarly to the way the IRS in teh US is a 
subdepartment of the Treasury Department. It's not a "cabinet level" 
position in the UK either, if my memory serves correctly. 
Also any social services involving things like domestic violence 
could also come under the auspices of the Magical Law Enforcement 
department. I know some of us feel that even in the wizarding world, 
unfortunately, such things do happen (Chez Malfoy being a possible 
example, but given Lucius' clout & power ... well ... the existance 
of a department is somewhat irrelevant...)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 17:13:20 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:13:20 -0000
Subject: Heads of House
In-Reply-To: <15A1037331@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <98o8rg+69h0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14307

? wrote:

> >If Hogwarts is modeled on the normal English public school, the
> >teachers who are heads of houses would sleep in the same tower 
> >as
> >their houses.  They're supposed to be available in case of trouble 
> >or
> >medical emergency.  Probably have a hidden door or something.

Rachel wrote:

> You know, that's a good point.  McGonagall seems to be there 
> awfully quick when they're up late making noise, doesn't she?  But 
> it says she comes through the portrait like everyone 
> else......hmmm...  Being raised in the traditional American school 
> system, I know nothing about boarding schools except that around 
> here you had to be either very naughty or very wealthy to go to one.
> 

>From my experience teaching and dormparenting at a US boarding school 
(where many of the students were both naughty and wealthy), yes, the 
heads of house would have to be close by.  We didn't have any 
prefects to help out, however.  Magic would also have been very 
helpful; instead of dragging myself out of bed at 4 a.m. to do a bed 
check (we did this a few times a year), I could've had some kind 
of magical alarm ring in my room when a student was sneaking out.  
Although if McGonagall and Snape have such techniques at their 
disposal, they don't seem to be using them.  Maybe they'd just rather 
not know.

We had a rotation system; I lived in an apartment in the dorm, but I 
was on duty only one night in three; on duty nights I had to be in 
the dorm from dinner til breakfast, but on the other nights I could be 
out late, even all night (<g>...guess where I met my spouse?).  
Otherwise dormparents would have had no lives of their own.  Maybe 
Prof. Sinistra spells McGonagall now and then so she can get out of 
Gryffindor Tower? 

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
 Ern jerked the wheel so hard that a whole
 farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus.
              -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
------------------------------------------------




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Mar 14 17:22:39 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:22:39 -0000
Subject: question about SS and Snape
In-Reply-To: <98n5l4+a0eo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98o9cv+5ja0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14308

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Justin Raines" <rainesj at h...> wrote:
> Another question I have been pondering along these lines is when 
> Voldie possessed Quirrell in the first book, Snape seemed to be a 
key 
> figure blocking him from carrying out his evil intentions [snip] 
> Wouldn't Voldie have it in for Snape after that

It is possible that Snape thought Quirrell was just out to get the 
Philosophers (NOT Sorcerers!!!!) stone for himself, and so never said 
anything about Voldie.

It is also possible that Snape figured that Quirrell was in Voldies 
employ, but pretended that he thought Quirrell was after the stone 
for himself, so as not to blow his (Snapes) cover as a double agent.

However, if Snape does make it clear to Quirrell that he suspects him 
of being in the employ of the dark forces, then you are absolutely 
right, Voldie should really hate Snape. Unfortunately, we dont know 
enough of the details of Snape and Quirrells conversations to know, 
something I am sure JKR did on purpose to keep the whole Mystery of 
Snape going.

--Joywitch




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Wed Mar 14 17:23:09 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:23:09 -0000
Subject: FB (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <98mjbc+llat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98o9dt+g84c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14309

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> spoiler space
> *
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> 8
> The Magical Menagerie  (PoA chapter 4), contains quite a few 
beasties 
> not mentioned in FB. It appears that only animals that have to be 
<snip>
> a gigantic tortoise with a jewel encrusted shell

This must have been a fire crab
 
> 	As for the Dementors,  Lupin mentions (POA 10) that Muggles 
can't 
> see them, so they wouldn't need to be hidden by the Wizards. Could 
it 
> be possible that Dementors are spirits?

Yes, I think thats probable.

This and the absence of the 3-headed dog leaves the possibility of 
other as yet unmentioned creatures appearing in the next books, but my 
guess is that most of them will be on the list.

Florence




From dir.crl at attcanada.ca  Wed Mar 14 17:40:06 2001
From: dir.crl at attcanada.ca (dir.crl at attcanada.ca)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:40:06 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks and spoiler for FBWTFT
In-Reply-To: <98o8ff+jru6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98oadm+dm2v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14310

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., indigo at i... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., fgcjnk at b... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Has anyone covered this yet? Can Crookshanks be an animagi like 
> > Scabbers? What about Pigwidgeon? (I mean, he was sent to Harry by 
> > Sirius) Or even Hedwig?
> > > 
> > In GoF when Lupin describes watching the marauders map and seeing 
> > Peter Pettigrew, the description of what he sees kind of implies
> > that Crookshanks does not show up on the map, whereas Peter and 
> > Sirius(the animagi) do.  Seems from this that animagi would show 
> > up, but beasts wouldn't.
> > 
> > Interestingly, when Harry is first given the map he does see Mrs 
> > Norris on it.  Does this imply something about Mrs Norris, or is 
it 
> a 
> > inconsistancy, or did Lupin see Crookshanks on the map, but not 
> > mention it knowing he was just a pet.
> > 
> > 
> > Is there anything in the archives on this - I've looked through 
> > some,  but... well they're big.
> > 
> > Florence
> 
> 
> Some ideas:
> 
> To see an ordinary animal on the Marauders' Map, you have to be 
> actively concentrating on it. Harry knows what a thorn in the side 
> Mrs. Norris is, so he was concerned about her location -- therefore 
> the map showed him where she is.
> 
> Lupin, being a werewolf, probably gave off an aura of "I am a big 
> scary predator and will eat you!"  to anything like a housecat, so 
he 
> got to thinking of them as inconsequential to his plans, no 
obstacle 
> to himself; so they never showed up on the map for him. 
> 
> Crookshanks was not really a concern to anyone save Ron -- and now 
we 
> know why Crookshanks was after 'Scabbers'.  But on the other hand, 
> Crookshanks seemed to be a feline sneakoscope, because he knew 
> Scabbers was not all he seemed.  Crookshanks also knew where the 
knot 
> to turn off the Whomping Willow was, and how to activate it. That 
> doesn't seem very "ordinary cat" to me.
> 
> Hopefully that will all be answered soon.  I plan to reread PA 
after 
> this weekend. I'm rereading SS/PS now, as backwork for a crossover 
HP 
> fic I'm working on. 
> 
> Indigo

This is exactly what I believed until I read Fantastic Beasts....
I'm pretty sure this has been mentionned before, but it bears 
repeating on this thread.
s
p
o
i
l
e
r

s
p
a
c
e
.
.
.
.
.
.
Crookshanks is most likely part Kneazle, which are described as 
a "cat-like creature with....a tail like a lion's" (which could also 
look like a bottle brush.) It is also described as "occasionally 
agressive"-jumping on Ron's head seems to cover that- and it "has an 
uncanny ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters".  This 
isn't quite as interesting as Crooksanks being an animagi, but it 
seems to fit.
~Divy











From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Mar 14 17:43:27 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:43:27 -0000
Subject: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
In-Reply-To: <85.8220ec2.27e0fc38@aol.com>
Message-ID: <98oajv+ltv5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14311

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., NOTaMuggleFamily at a... wrote:
> Children's Books To Be Reissued
> 
> 
> 
> NEW YORK (AP) - Harry Potter fans look out: Some new Muggles are 
coming to 
> town. Or are they old ones? 
> 
> ``The Legend of Rah and the Muggles,'' whose author is suing J.K. 
Rowling for 
> stealing her ideas, will be reissued by Thurman House in May, the 
publisher 
> announced Wednesday. The book was first published in 1984 and went 
out of 
> print a few years later, long before the Potter series began. 
> 
> Author Nancy Stouffer said in a recent interview she had a hard 
time finding 
> a new publisher because some feared her book would be seen as 
ripping off the 
> Potter stories. 

Not only seen as, but actually doing so, IMHO. What a horrible, 
stupid, @#$%&* person this Stouffer is!!!

I had volunteered to go to the Library of Congress and read Stouffers 
so-called work, but as her old publisher never sent a copy to the 
Library, she has never been listed in their catalog.

I dont know how we are going to get a copy of this book without 
paying for it, which I personally refuse to do.  I checked the 
Library of Congress catalog recently and Stouffer is still not 
listed, but that would make sense if the book is not being published 
until May.  However even if this publisher does send the requisite 
copies to the Library of Congress, the Library takes quite awhile to 
put new acquisitions into circulation, as much as a year.

I suspect we may be seeing these horrible books in bookstores, since 
Stouffer is clearly taking advantage of the popularity of HP to strut 
her own lack of talent.

--Joywitch






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Mar 14 17:47:27 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:47:27 -0000
Subject: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
In-Reply-To: <98oajv+ltv5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98oarf+25n2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14312

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., NOTaMuggleFamily at a... wrote:
> > Children's Books To Be Reissued
> > 

> > ``The Legend of Rah and the Muggles,'' whose author is suing J.K. 
> Rowling for 
> > stealing her ideas, will be reissued by Thurman House in May, the 
> publisher 
> > announced Wednesday. The book was first published in 1984 and 
went 
> out of 
> > print a few years later, long before the Potter series began. 
> 
> I suspect we may be seeing these horrible books in bookstores, 
since 
> Stouffer is clearly taking advantage of the popularity of HP to 
strut 
> her own lack of talent.

Oh, great. Now I have 3 important jobs whenever I walk into a 
bookstore. Put Peg Kerr (peg? are you lurking?) books in high profile 
places, make sure no books are covering my friend Brad Meltzer's new 
book The First Counsel, and HIDE HIDE HIDE all copies of the stouffer 
book. Lori? Can you keep them out of your Borders entirely?




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Mar 14 17:48:31 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:48:31 -0000
Subject: this version of FB / Crookshanks / Lexicon help
In-Reply-To: <98o9dt+g84c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98oatf+hr4f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14313


> > spoiler space
> > *
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8
> > 8



> This and the absence of the 3-headed dog leaves the possibility of 
> other as yet unmentioned creatures appearing in the next books, but 
my 
> guess is that most of them will be on the list.

The proper name for the 3-headed dog is "hellhound." Cerberus was 
one, in Greek mythology. He guarded the Underworld's entrance. Like 
anyone would really want to go down there...

I think it's pretty clear that the version of FB we have in our hands 
is a specially prepared edition that drastically pares down the 
beasts included. Dementors and boggarts are an excellent example of 
beasts that SHOULD be there but aren't. This is also apparent in the 
list of students on that checkout list. I think it was added 
specifically for this edition. They said, well, it has a library 
slip, what do we do with that, and Dumbledore said, "Let's just put 
some names on it that the Muggles will recognize." 

As for Crookshanks, I think it's obvious that JKR put that one 
creature in the book (don't have my copy--was it a Kneezle?) to tip 
us off to what Crookshanks really is. The description is uncannily 
close to that of Crookshanks, especially when you take the behavior 
into account. I'd say that Crookshanks is a mix of one of those and a 
normal cat. Not that there's any such thing as a "normal" cat...

Amy, in regards to working on the Lexicon for me, I would be 
delighted to have help. Doreen already is doing some work for me and 
I have approached a few folks here and there for permission to use 
their stuff (some of which is still in my to-do pile). And of course, 
Caius has contributed a lot of wonderful writing for the Journal. But 
there is absolutely no money involved. I have been approached a 
number of times to include advertising on my site, but I have always 
refused, although it gets a LOT of hits and would certainly be able 
to generate some support cash. But no one makes a speck of money off 
the Lexicon -- it's all volunteer, including me. I like it without 
those ugly banner ads.

Of course, if Scholastic wanted to pay me to do it and make it part 
of their official site, that would be fine too. I wonder how I would 
ask them about that?

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
The best Harry Potter website on the planet. Well, I like it anyway.
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 14 18:07:07 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:07:07 -0000
Subject: SPOILERS: FBeasts: Wizarding World Governance,
In-Reply-To: <98o8hc+edmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98oc0b+gklk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14314

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
> Pippin - not to burst your magical bubble (made with Drooble's Best 
> Blowing Gum(tm)) but I would suspect that the Ministry Revenue 
> Service is a subdepartment in the Department of Magical Law 
> Enforcement, similarly to the way the IRS in teh US is a 
> subdepartment of the Treasury Department.
 It's not a "cabinet level" 
> position in the UK either, if my memory serves correctly.
 
	At cabinet level, after looking at the uk.gov site, is the 
Minister of the Treasury to whom the Department of Inland Revenue 
reports...there is also a Minister of Defense. The wizards don't have a 
Department of Magical War  (or Defense) either...it could be all our 
references to Vold War I and II are Muggle thinking. In Wizard eyes, 
Voldie and his gang are criminals. Or maybe war and taxation are both 
managed by the International Confederation of Wizards. Hmm.
Pippin





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 14 18:28:42 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:28:42 -0000
Subject: SNAPE and VAMPIRES (FB SPOILERS)
Message-ID: <98od8q+nt8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14315

*Spoiler space
*
**
**
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
	In a little footnote in FB it says that vampires are 'beings', 
this  means they are not 'has-beens', not spirits. GoF refers to 
vampires as part-human (and part magical bat? there is a reference to 
vampire bats in QTA) Hmm, maybe vampires are humans who have been 
bitten by vampire bats? So this could refute the Snape-can't-be-part-
Vampire-because-vampires-are-dead argument.
Pippin








From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 09:45:18 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (~*Vicki Granger*~)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:45:18 +1100
Subject: Why Voldemort wanted to spare Lily
Message-ID: <F103FRaqbC8wSA1XvpF00007e18@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14316

========

What if the same thing happened to Lily and Voldemort? What if Lily
once showed mercy to Voldemort, and he had that debt with her?
Dumbledore said it's a powerful connection. Maybe, because of a
prophecy or something, Voldy had to kill James and Harry, but
*couldn't* kill Lily. Then, when he actually got to murder her, it
all turned back to him, because he had broken the magical bond.
That'd be why he wanted to spare her in the first place. I mean, the
guy's a big time baddy, has killed lots of people, why would he care
about murdering an extra one? He finished Cedric off without thinking
twice.

========

My personal favourite explanation for Voldie needing to kill Harry and James 
follows... it's from a post at a forum, with a few alterations by mio! Maybe 
if we mix the two theories together?

========

WHY Voldemort wanted to kill Harry in the first place, and WHY his mum 
didn't matter!

HARRY IS THE HEIR OF GODRIC GRYFFINDOR!

Think about it, he's IN Gryffindor, he pulled Godric's sword out of the 
Sorting Hat, His parents
LIVED in GODRIC'S HOLLOW, when he got his wand, it shot RED and GOLD sparks, 
which are the
colours for Gryffindor, and he was born under Leo, the constellation of the 
lion, which is the
animal for Gryffindor!

PLUS - Think about it, Voldemort would want the heir of Gryffindor dead, 
because he is the
decendent of Slytherin, AND why else would he not want to kill Lily? Lily 
had NO RELATION to
Godric Gryffindor at all! So really, is this all coincidence? I DON'T THINK 
SO! Harry and James
are related to Godric Gryffindor, who must of had alot of power to make the 
Sorting Hat and all
that, and how else would James get to be head boy if he wasn't REALLY 
powerful and smart? He was
in detention all the time! He HAD to have been extremely powerful and smart 
to think up all the
tricks and everyting! How else would he have been able to make the 
Maurader's Map AND become
illegal Animagi WHILE HE WAS STILL IN SCHOOL?

So THAT is why Voldemort wanted to kill Harry and James!

========

~*Vicki Granger*~
FanFiction.Net Author
Hermione Granger in Harry_Potter_RPG2
113% Obsessed with Harry Potter
~*~MeMbEr Of EvIl ClUb~*~
:>(*)<: Reserve Seeker :>(*)<:
Proud Ravenclaw
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 18:41:10 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:41:10 -0000
Subject: Werewolf cures - Crookshanks - Snape in PS/SS
Message-ID: <98oe06+ebvn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14317

Florence wrote:

> The charm had just been developed, the developer told Lockhart all 
> about it hoping for wider publicity and use for the new charm, but 
> Lockhart (selfish git) wiped his memory and the secret behind the 
> charm was lost.

Welcome to you, too, Florence!  This is a much better theory than 
either of mine.  It really makes Lockhart out to be a lowlife scum 
instead of just an idiot and a cad.  Imagine someone discovering a 
cure for a horrible disease and destroying the evidence just so he 
could make a buck.  Such a person should be locked in a room full of 
werewolves at the full moon.

Florence also wrote:

>In GoF when Lupin describes watching the marauders map and seeing 
> Peter Pettigrew, the description of what he sees kind of implies 
that 
> Crookshanks does not show up on the map, whereas Peter and 
Sirius(the 
> animagi) do.  Seems from this that animagi would show up, but beasts 
> wouldn't.
>
> Interestingly, when Harry is first given the map he does see Mrs 
> Norris on it.  Does this imply something about Mrs Norris, or is it 
a 
> inconsistancy, or did Lupin see Crookshanks on the map, but not 
>  mention it knowing he was just a pet.

There was a lot of speculation about Crookshanks's true nature a month 
or two ago, but I don't recall this point being made.

It could just be that Mrs. Norris is on there because the Marauders 
knew her and particularly wanted the map to show where she was (this 
would make her a very old cat, but hey, she's magical).  OR that she 
is on there by dint of her psychic connection to Filch.

But it might tell us that Crookshanks is an ordinary cat and therefore 
doesn't show up.  I agree with Indigo, though; he doesn't seem quite 
ordinary.  I also figure that all the animals sold in Diagon Alley 
have *something* magical about them, if only a heightened intuition.

Joywitch wrote:

> It is also possible that Snape figured that Quirrell was in Voldies 
> employ, but pretended that he thought Quirrell was after the stone 
> for himself, so as not to blow his (Snapes) cover as a double agent.

Thanks; this helped alleviate my continuing confusion about what Q 
thinks S is up to.  This must be what Snape is doing--while pretending 
that he, Snape, is also after it for himself.  Or, more likely, for 
Voldemort--otherwise what's "where your loyalties lie" line (ch 13) 
supposed to convey to Q?  It seems to mean, "Hey, Q, are you on 
Dumbledore's side or OURS?"  ("Dumbledore's side or MINE" doesn't seem 
very logical.)  

And if Snape were really on the Dark Side, Quirrell could get him to 
leave him be by saying, "Severus, lay off, I'm doing this for Our 
Master."  But he can't do that, because he's not *sure* SS is on V's 
side, so he mustn't blow his own (Q's) cover.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 Just then, Neville caused a slight diversion
 by turning into a large canary.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar 14 18:52:38 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:52:38 -0000
Subject: Magic Bus Driver (filk)
Message-ID: <98oelm+p68h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14318

Magic Bus Driver (from PoA, Ch. 3)

(To the tune of Paperback Writer)

Dedicated to Rita Winston

(The Scene: Magnolia Crescent, late at night. HARRY has just departed 
from the Dursleys under less than cordial circumstances, and finds 
himself with nowhere to go)

HARRY
I'm in trouble now, I just blew up Aunt Marge
>From Hogwarts it's certain I'm to be discharged
A giant dog is somewhere lurking `round at large 
And I need some help, if I am to be a survivor
Privet Survivor!

(He loses his balance, and falls backwards, inadvertently signaling 
the Knight Bus. The conductor  STAN SHUNPIKE emerges)

STAN 
Give me your wand hand, since you flagged us down 
Just fifteen sickles and you're off to London town  
Get some hot chocolate, don your evening gown
You can call me Stan, and Ern'll be your magic bus driver

STAN AND ERNIE
Magic bus driver!

HARRY
Drive me to Diagon, Diagon Diagon

(The bus roars off, lurching violently from side to side)

STAN
Now, sit back, young Neville, and enjoy the ride
Just watch the trees and houses leaping to one side
When they hear the Knight Bus, the path they open's wide
And we'll never hit a thing, because we're not a supercollider

STAN AND ERNIE
Supercollider!

(The bus pulls up in front of The Leaky Cauldron . Cornelius Fudge 
and Tom, the Cauldron's proprietor, are waiting out front). 

STAN
We have reached our stop with zigging and some zags
Corny and Tom are here to take your bags
And if ever you are stranded, wave your wand and flag
For Ernie and Stan, your reliable magic bus drivers!

STAN, ERN AND "NEVILLE"
Magic bus drivers!

(Harry disembarks ? the Knight Bus roars off and vanishes)

   - CMC 





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 19:12:35 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:12:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: question about SS and Snape
In-Reply-To: <98o9cv+5ja0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010314191235.26237.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14319

> It is possible that Snape thought Quirrell was just out to get the 
> Philosophers (NOT Sorcerers!!!!) stone for himself, and so never
> said anything about Voldie.  It is also possible that Snape figured

> that Quirrell was in Voldies employ, but pretended that he thought 
> Quirrell was after the stone for himself, so as not to blow his 
> Snapes) cover as a double agent.


Doesn't Snape make a comment to Quirrell (overheard and misunderstood
by Harry) about knowing where his (that is, Quirrell's) loyalties
lie?  Sounds like a reference to Voldemort.

Perhaps he's not afraid of V. because he knows V. isn't strong at the
moment; if he were, Dumbledore would have said something.  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From john at walton.to  Wed Mar 14 19:20:07 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:20:07 +0000
Subject: SPOILERS: QTA & Shape of Quaffle
Message-ID: <B6D574E7.E1FD%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14320

M
U
L
T
O

M
U
L
T
O

E
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
O

E
S
P
A
C
I
O

Okay, I've just reread QTA for the third or fourth time, and the last time I
read through I was looking specifically for reference to the non-circular
red ball we're shown in the trailer that I assume is the Quaffle. I found no
reference to it. 

Did anybody else spot this? The only rationalisation I could make is that
the one with holes in is the School-Grade Quaffle, and not the Professional
one.

Thoughts?

--John

____________________________________________

"The Universe is not only Queerer than we suppose,
it is Queerer than we can suppose." - JBS Haldane, Possible Worlds

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________




From aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org  Wed Mar 14 19:40:35 2001
From: aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org (Meredith Wilson)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:40:35 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Handwriting in FB/QTA (was Dates)
Message-ID: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BED4@MAILSRV>

No: HPFGUIDX 14321

Amy Z said:

 
Y
O
U

P
O
O
R

T
H
I
N
G,

G
O

G
E
T

T
H
E

B
O
O
K
S!
 
I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be patient, but I haven't gotten
them in the mail yet dang it!!
 
Mer 




From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 14 19:42:44 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:42:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: killing voldemort/ polyjuice affecting  personality?dumbledore cold&calculating?
References: <98n52o+qn3l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AAFC9B4.2C882424@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14322

MMMfanfic at hotmail.com wrote:

> I like the poetic justice thing but it just seems, as somebody said,
> taking the easy way out.  Like it or not, in real life, evil *usually*
> doesn't cause its own downfall.  It does require actions (somtimes
> cruel actions) to curb evil.  But I guess it all up to JKR.

I've been following this thread with interest. I think that Harry may
indeed kill Voldemort, but I think there will be a vital difference from
killing as V. and the DeathEaters do it---Harry will understand the
burden he has taken on by taking another life. He will understand it and
decide that not killing Voldemort would hurt too many people.

This is similar to what a lot of soldiers in WWII had to go through, the
ones who weren't content with excusing their actions as "under orders."
They understood they were personally responsible for the deaths they
were causing, but also understood the bigger picture and judged that the
price they paid was worth the larger goal.

What I'm saying is that nothing JKR has written is simple. I've loved
the searches for "tags," be they red hair or color of spell or initials.
I don't think her themes are simple either. The end may well justify the
means---depending on the end and the means. It will be a choice of
Harry's, I think, and the choice will not be whether or not to be a
killer, but rather whether or not to act to save others. It will be a
difficult choice if saving others involves killing. But by that time, I
believe Harry will have matured into a person who could face that choice
as a real selection of options, not a foregone conclusion.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Mar 14 19:42:37 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:42:37 -0000
Subject: FB/QTA  where to get 'em
In-Reply-To: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BED4@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <98ohjd+trh0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14323

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Meredith Wilson 
<aviationoutreachcoord at m...> wrote:
>  
> I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be patient, but I haven't 
gotten
> them in the mail yet dang it!!
>  
> Mer

I found my copies at a local Wal-Mart because Amazon.Com sold out 
(and they almost never go out of stock on stuff I like)

Good luck! 

Indigo
(who needs to find an appropriate quote for her signature)




From kdemcak at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 19:47:37 2001
From: kdemcak at hotmail.com (kdemcak at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:47:37 -0000
Subject: question about SS and Snape
In-Reply-To: <20010314191235.26237.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <98ohsp+tqhc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14324

> > It is possible that Snape thought Quirrell was just out to get the 
> > Philosophers (NOT Sorcerers!!!!) stone for himself, and so never
> > said anything about Voldie.  It is also possible that Snape   
> >figured that Quirrell was in Voldies employ, but pretended that he 
> >thought Quirrell was after the stone for himself, so as not to blow 
> >his Snapes) cover as a double agent.
> 
> 
> Doesn't Snape make a comment to Quirrell (overheard and 
misunderstood
> by Harry) about knowing where his (that is, Quirrell's) loyalties
> lie?  Sounds like a reference to Voldemort.

I think the exact quote is this:

"Very well," Snape cut in. "We'll have another little chat soon, when 
you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties 
lie."

Couldn't that also be interpreted to be in reference to Dumbledore, 
not Voldemort?  As in, "Are you going to backstab the most powerful 
wizard of our time or are you just out for yourself and the money?"

Intriguing line of thought, th




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Wed Mar 14 19:51:02 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:51:02 -0000
Subject: Handwriting in FB/QTA (was Dates)
In-Reply-To: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BED4@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <98oi36+o17n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14325

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Meredith Wilson 
<aviationoutreachcoord at m...> wrote:
> Amy Z said:
> 
>  
> Y
> O
> U
> 
> P
> O
> O
> R
> 
> T
> H
> I
> N
> G,
> 
> G
> O
> 
> G
> E
> T
> 
> T
> H
> E
> 
> B
> O
> O
> K
> S!
>  
> I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be patient, but I haven't 
gotten
> them in the mail yet dang it!!
>  
> Mer

Me as well, Mer.  I didn't think there would *be* any copies on the 
shelves, so I ordered mine through the mail.  Owl Post would have 
been faster.

Parker




From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 14 20:05:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 14:05:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] a cure for werewolfs?
References: <98gnff+ilv3@eGroups.com> <007201c0ac59$63c81e20$dd0c173f@rena>
Message-ID: <3AAFCEF2.34FB47FD@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14326

Rena wrote:

> I am in the middle of re-reading the Chamber of Secrets and noticed
> that Lockhart says, "he performed the immensely complex Homorphus
> Charm" and the werewolf turned back into a man, thus "delievered them
> [the villagers] from the monthly terror of werewolf attacks."

I interpreted this to mean that the Charm was complex because it could
combat a curse as strong as lycanthropy, and force the werewolf to
change into human form off-schedule. It forces him back into human, and
thus reveals who the werewolf is, so the villagers could then take
action (whatever that action would be) against that individual. [For
surely werewolves who are terrorizing villages attempt to do so while
keeping their human identities incognito, yes?]

However, the charm is only a one-time forced shape-change. It doesn't
remove or cure or break the curse of lycanthropy. If there's a full moon
the next night, you got yourself a wolf (presumably in a cage by this
point), unless you perform the charm again.

> Yet, in Prisoner of Azkaban, we learn that there is no cure for
> werewolfs. Snape is brewing a potion, which obviously on he can do, to
> reduce the severity of the transformation to a mere wolf who will curl
> up and sleep.

Right. I think this is no more than the truth. Snape can make this
recently developed potion, so Lupin is able to take a teaching position.



> This makes me wonder, is who is right? Is there a cure for werewolfs?

No. Because (a) I think we can trust the sources as presented, and (b)
Lupin's character is tragic because there is no cure. If there were a
cure, well, he'd get it and just be a way cool teacher, with much less
impact to the plot and the reader.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Mar 14 20:40:17 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 14 Mar 2001 12:40:17 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks
Message-ID: <20010314204017.13400.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14327

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010314/59a73b80/attachment.ksh>

From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar 14 20:44:05 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:44:05 -0000
Subject: Let's Go Float an Aunt (filk)
Message-ID: <98ol6l+oib8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14328

Let's Go Float an Aunt (from PoA, Ch. 2)

(To the tune of Let's Go Fly A Kite, from Mary Poppins)

Dedicated to Pippin

(The Scene: Privet Drive. HARRY is having dinner with the Dursleys, 
including his gruesome Aunt Marge. He is growing increasingly restive 
under her insults) 

AUNT MARGE (holding up a hand, her tiny bloodshot eyes fixed on 
HARRY.) Go on, boy, go on. Proud of your parents, are you? They go 
and get themselves killed in a car crash (drunk, I expect)--"

HARRY (music)
When Aunt Marge calls me a disgrace
That's the sort of thing I can face
If she calls me a slime, I hear that all the time
But if she slurs Mom and Dad ? well, now, that makes me mad.

It's time to float Aunt Marge
Blow her up round and large
Let's make it seem that Marge came here from Goodyear
Since Dad she would berate
It's time to Aunt-inflate
That's why I'm floating Marge

Uncle Vern warned me to be nice
To get my slip signed was his price
And I could get expelled if I cast one more spell
But she slandered my Mom ? so I'm dropping the bomb

It's time to float Aunt Marge
Expand her free of charge
Though it's not original to leave Marge a dirigible
Can't help to bring her down
Right now I'm leaving town
Bye, Dursleys  - and Aunt Marge!

(Exit)


    - CMC





From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 20:52:37 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:52:37 -0000
Subject: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
In-Reply-To: <98oarf+25n2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98olml+9346@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14329

Sorry, I just cannot hide my choler. This opportunistic whore makes me 
ill.

I do not believe that the books are going to sell. What 
self-respecting child is going to be seen with them. I have been 
unable to find ANY info about Thurman House-- are we sure it is not a 
vanity press? If it is, it WON'T get reviews from the publications 
that count.

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest her armpits!!

Suzanne


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., NOTaMuggleFamily at a... wrote:
> > > Children's Books To Be Reissued
> > > 
> 
> > > ``The Legend of Rah and the Muggles,'' whose author is suing 
J.K. 
> > Rowling for 
> > > stealing her ideas, will be reissued by Thurman House in May, 
the 
> > publisher 
> > > announced Wednesday. The book was first published in 1984 and 
> went 
> > out of 
> > > print a few years later, long before the Potter series began. 
> > 
> > I suspect we may be seeing these horrible books in bookstores, 
> since 
> > Stouffer is clearly taking advantage of the popularity of HP to 
> strut 
> > her own lack of talent.
> 
> Oh, great. Now I have 3 important jobs whenever I walk into a 
> bookstore. Put Peg Kerr (peg? are you lurking?) books in high 
profile 
> places, make sure no books are covering my friend Brad Meltzer's new 
> book The First Counsel, and HIDE HIDE HIDE all copies of the 
stouffer 
> book. Lori? Can you keep them out of your Borders entirely?




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 21:03:55 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:03:55 -0000
Subject: Heads of House
In-Reply-To: <98o8rg+69h0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98ombr+7mrk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14330


Ah memories of the Putney School! I was a creative writing teacher 
there and dormparent there to about twenty thirteen year-olds. I 
cannot imagine one human being managing all of Gryffindor!! Yah!!! I 
cannot even imagine the teachers handling their course loads-- can you 
picture teaching Transfiguration to ALL four houses and ALL seven 
years??? Day in and day out??? Isn't that 28 classes of about twelve 
or so students each???

It must be magic. Enchanted paper grading quills or whatnot. No other 
way to accomplish the impossible! If I was not in earshot of my 
thirteen year old charges all night, they would ahve run wild without 
any hesitation. And they DID once, and Oh I will never forget that 
night. Thank god the night watchman and the head mistress had a great 
sense of humor.... We handled it well and I was voted favorite teacher 
for not making such a big deal of such a memorable event.

Enough... end of the day burn-out for me. I am enjoying the talk 
though!



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> ? wrote:
> 
> > >If Hogwarts is modeled on the normal English public school, the
> > >teachers who are heads of houses would sleep in the same tower 
> > >as
> > >their houses.  They're supposed to be available in case of 
trouble 
> > >or
> > >medical emergency.  Probably have a hidden door or something.
> 
> Rachel wrote:
> 
> > You know, that's a good point.  McGonagall seems to be there 
> > awfully quick when they're up late making noise, doesn't she?  But 
> > it says she comes through the portrait like everyone 
> > else......hmmm...  Being raised in the traditional American school 
> > system, I know nothing about boarding schools except that around 
> > here you had to be either very naughty or very wealthy to go to 
one.
> > 
> 
> From my experience teaching and dormparenting at a US boarding 
school 
> (where many of the students were both naughty and wealthy), yes, the 
> heads of house would have to be close by.  We didn't have any 
> prefects to help out, however.  Magic would also have been very 
> helpful; instead of dragging myself out of bed at 4 a.m. to do a bed 
> check (we did this a few times a year), I could've had some kind 
> of magical alarm ring in my room when a student was sneaking out.  
> Although if McGonagall and Snape have such techniques at their 
> disposal, they don't seem to be using them.  Maybe they'd just 
rather 
> not know.
> 
> We had a rotation system; I lived in an apartment in the dorm, but I 
> was on duty only one night in three; on duty nights I had to be in 
> the dorm from dinner til breakfast, but on the other nights I could 
be 
> out late, even all night (<g>...guess where I met my spouse?).  
> Otherwise dormparents would have had no lives of their own.  Maybe 
> Prof. Sinistra spells McGonagall now and then so she can get out of 
> Gryffindor Tower? 
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
>  Ern jerked the wheel so hard that a whole
>  farmhouse had to jump aside to avoid the bus.
>               -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> ------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 14 21:11:35 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:11:35 -0000
Subject: waiting for books...
In-Reply-To: <98oi36+o17n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98omq7+l79e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14331

> > Amy Z said:
> > 
> >  
> > Y
> > O
> > U
> > 
> > P
> > O
> > O
> > R
> > 
> > T
> > H
> > I
> > N
> > G,
> > 
> > G
> > O
> > 
> > G
> > E
> > T
> > 
> > T
> > H
> > E
> > 
> > B
> > O
> > O
> > K
> > S!
> >  
> > I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be patient, but I haven't 
> gotten
> > them in the mail yet dang it!!
> >  
> > Mer
> 
> Me as well, Mer.  I didn't think there would *be* any copies on the 
> shelves, so I ordered mine through the mail.  Owl Post would have 
> been faster. 
>-Parker

Me too.  My spoiler above notwithstanding, I'm still going on memory 
from my all-too-brief read in the bookstore, where I didn't buy the 
*&#$% things because I'm waiting for my Chapters.ca order.  I wanted 
to hold out for the untranslated edition.  A quick perusal made me 
think that the only difference was the US price on the cover anyway.  
But I wasn't positive; and I'd already ordered two sets, didn't know 
what I'd do with a third, and thought I could hold out.

Clearly, my plan of getting OoP through Chapters needs to be 
reconsidered, unless they will absolutely guarantee that it will go 
out overnight mail the day it comes out.  No way could I endure this 
kind of delay with one of the novels.  Maybe I'd better plan on being 
in Canada for the midnight release next year.

Amy Z




From katie at vquill.com  Wed Mar 14 21:19:48 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:19:48 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] a cure for werewolfs?
In-Reply-To: <007201c0ac59$63c81e20$dd0c173f@rena>
References: <98gnff+ilv3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010314131702.00b795e0@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14332

At 11:35 PM 3/13/01 -0800, you wrote:

>This makes me wonder, is who is right? Is there a cure for werewolfs?
>And if so, why didn't Lupin get cured? I think that Dumbledore or
>McGonagall would be able to perform such a charm.
>
>Ideas? Suggestions? Answers?
>
>Rena

I have a feeling that, as part of the general hysteria and 
lack-of-understanding of werewolves, that curing werewolves just isn't 
possible -- and Lockhart himself might not even know it, nor do his readers.

After all, Riddle tells Harry that Hagrid used to raise werewolf cubs -- 
which is totally impossible, as JKR has agreed. He either said it knowing 
that Harry wouldn't really know the truth, or he doesn't know the truth 
himself!

I'm guessing all people know about werewolves is old wives tales and total 
misinformation.  But Dumbledore knows the truth -- and if there was a cure, 
I'm sure he would have found it. (As long as the cure wasn't "evil" in 
nature. Well, unless, of course, that Dumbledore doesn't believe in 
altering people that way, that they should be true to themselves or 
something....)

-Katie




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 14 21:33:34 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:33:34 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Crookshanks
References: <20010314204017.13400.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <007601c0acce$8a38e9c0$6d14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14333

Yes, I covered Crookshanks ages ago with the chapter 7 (I think it was)
summary.

Jeralyn, the Voicelady

The earliest chapter summary that I can find is chapter nine. Can you direct
me to the letter number where I might find your chapter summary, please.

Doreen, who was not here ages ago... am I a minority?




From john at walton.to  Wed Mar 14 22:25:31 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:25:31 +0000
Subject: UK editions of FB & QTA (no spoilers!)
Message-ID: <B6D5A05B.E2B6%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14334

Hi all,

Seems that some US folks are wanting the UK editions or their own editions
haven't arrived yet. I return to the US next Wednesday (21 March) and am
willing to cart them back if you want. If you're interested, I'm thinking of
going through Amazon.co.uk or one of the other reputable online UK
booksellers -- you use your card, send them to my UK address and I bring
them over and post them. Of course, if you're coming to the NY get-together
on the 22nd, that'd be the easiest thing :)

--John

PS If you haven't been getting mail about the NY get-together on 22 March
(and 13th April) and would like to do so, drop me a personal email @
john at walton.to

____________________________________________

"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our
abilities." --Albus Dumbledore

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________




From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 22:35:16 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:35:16 -0000
Subject: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
In-Reply-To: <98oarf+25n2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98orn4+arsu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14335

Heidi:"Oh, great. Now I have 3 important jobs whenever I walk into a 
bookstore. Put Peg Kerr (peg? are you lurking?) books in high 
profile places, make sure no books are covering my friend Brad 
Meltzer's new book The First Counsel, and HIDE HIDE HIDE all copies of 
the stouffer book. Lori? Can you keep them out of your Borders 
entirely?"

This is the last thing that should happen. I hope that these books are 
front and center, the first thing you see when you walk into the 
store. I hope everyone gets to make a clear comparison between the 
poor aggrieved creator of the term "Muggles" and the shameless 
Scottish hussy who rode that purloined word to fame and fortune. And I 
sure don't hope to see this message waved around in court as evidence 
the wicked Rowling cabal is working overtime to sabotage Ms. 
Stouffer's masterwork.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Mar 14 22:09:37 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:09:37 -0600
Subject: Crookshanks Summary
References: <20010314204017.13400.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <007601c0acce$8a38e9c0$6d14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3AAFEC21.527ECBFD@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14336

Hi --

Doreen wrote:

> The earliest chapter summary that I can find is chapter nine. Can you
> direct me to the letter number where I might find your chapter
> summary, please.

Chapter 9 is probably the earliest chapter summary on this group.  Don't
forget that with each chapter summary, there is a character summary.
Jeralyn did the Animal Characters summary, which was paired with Chapter
7.  You will need to go join the Archives group for our former Yahoo
Club messages (which Smitster thankfully transferred over to an easily
searchable Yahoogroups for us all).  Yahoo Club messages of this group
from Oct 1999 through August 24, 2000 are included in this Archive (some
7500 or so).  Here's the URL:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives

> Doreen, who was not here ages ago... am I a minority?

We have gained over 400 members since January so ... I think the
old-timers will soon be in the minority if this trend continues.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joy0823 at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 14 22:53:27 2001
From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:53:27 -0500
Subject: Schoolbooks?
Message-ID: <006c01c0acd9$95718760$0100000a@joywelan>

No: HPFGUIDX 14337

Does anyone know if more schoolbooks are planned?  I haven't heard anything
either way, but I'd love to read some of the books referenced in the
footnotes to QTA and FB.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
~Joy~
http://www.geocities.com/joy0823
Last Movie Seen:  "The Mexican" - 4 out of 5 stars
Current Book:  "HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban" by JK Rowling
------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Wed Mar 14 22:52:05 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:52:05 -0000
Subject: FB/QTA  where to get 'em
In-Reply-To: <98ohjd+trh0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98osml+2jbg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14338

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Meredith Wilson 
> <aviationoutreachcoord at m...> wrote:
> >  
> > I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be patient, but I 
haven't 
> gotten
> > them in the mail yet dang it!!
> >  
> > Mer
> 
> I found my copies at a local Wal-Mart because Amazon.Com sold out 
> (and they almost never go out of stock on stuff I like)
> 
> Good luck! 

Borders.com still has them in stock.  

Marianne




From George_Weasleys_Girlfriend at playful.com  Wed Mar 14 23:53:07 2001
From: George_Weasleys_Girlfriend at playful.com (Mrs. G. Weasley)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:53:07 -0000
Subject: Newbie intro, ship, story style, Avada Kedavra, Kappas, Chicago, Animagi
Message-ID: <98p093+vn63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14339

Hi everyone!  I've been on this list for a few weeks and have just 
decided to make my presence known.  Umm... so... hi!  ::Waves 
shyly::  I'm Jana and most of you probably don't know me, but I'll 
keep my intro brief.  I love writing and reading.  I'm in choir (Go 
altos!).  I'm very involved in theatre, both performing and set 
construction/stage crew (I'm a techtor!) and am completely in love 
with Broadway (Jekyll & Hyde, Miss Siagon, Footloose, Once on This 
Island).  Okay, enough about me - onto HP (Heh, that rhymed).

Amanda said: <<No, no, there's lots of us here. But by definition, 
[we that are no-shippers are] not in a ship at all; we're bobbing 
around in inner tubes, drinking beer and watching the fireworks shows 
from the big ships (a la tubing down the Guadalupe, for you Texans). 
Just paddle over. Want a nacho?>>

::reaches over and plucks a nacho from Amanda's tray::  Thanks, 
love.  ::paddles around in her innertube a little::  Woo, this is a 
whole lot more fun than being on a ship.  Ooh, look, 
fireworks!  ::points upwards and tumbles backwards out of innertube::

Amy Z. wrote: <<Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if Hermione fell 
in love with Ron, Harry, or Neville for that matter--as long as Jo 
builds up to whatever happens with the same skill she used in the 
above examples.>>

Ah, someone else who feels as I do!  Right now, I feel as though Ron 
and Hermione could end up together - and things could work out (as 
long as they each change a bit - but then, isn't that the same with 
all couples).  But that's not cemented in stone, nor can I back it up 
with loads of canonical evidence or psychobabble.  Just a feeling.  
At the end of OoP, I may believe that Hermione and Neville are 
destined to go riding off into the sunset.  JKR has a way of making 
me *believe* what she writes.  As long as she keeps up this trend, I 
should feel very satisfied at the end of book VII.  Though if any of 
my favorite characters die, I'll be sad... but I'll know it was 
necessary to happen.  I can't see Ms. R. killing off characters 
without a reason.

Pippin wrote: <<Avada Kedavra - A filk by Pippin, to the tune of 
Hakuna Matata, from the Lion King.>>

This was absolutely rolling-on-the-floor, clutching-my-stomach 
hilarious.  It's funny because it's the Killing Curse to a Disney 
song.  ::holds back giggles::  I actually started humming it.  Wrong, 
I know, but ::shrug::  What're you going to do, right?

Penny wrote: <<4.  I don't understand why Japanese is underlined in 
the description of Kappas (or the comment "Snape hasn't read this 
either").  Can anyone explain?>>

Well, in PoA, Lupin is out "sick" for day (or is it two?) and Snape 
has to take over DADA.  While looking over graded papers, he makes 
rude comments about the work like, "Eight out of ten?  I wouldn't 
have given it three!"  Finally, he comes to one about Kappas and he 
says something along the lines of, "They're more commonly found in 
*Mongolia.*"  That explains the "Snape hasn't read this" part, but 
the "either" part comes into play when, earlier in FBAWTFT, 
Hippogriffs are mentioned and the fact that they should only be 
handled by professionals.  Next to it, Harry (or is it Ron?) 
writes: "Has Hagrid read this book?"  It's terrible that I actually 
can spew (No pun intended.) this stuff off the top of my head.

Florence wrote: <<I just love the fact that the Chudley Cannons are 
the Red Sox of Quidditch.>>

Red Sox?  How about the Cubs?  I'm a Chicago native and can tell you 
firsthand that the Cubbies have the most dedicated fans in the MLB.  
They haven't won a pennant in over a century and they're still well-
loved.  ::shrug::  My brother's an unconditional fan.  Me, I was 
raised to be a Yankee fan like my father.

Doreen wrote: <<Has anyone covered this yet? Can Crookshanks be  an 
animagi like Scabbers? What about Pigwidgeon? (I mean, he was sent to 
Harry by Sirius) Or even Hedwig?>>

See, this is where I see a small inconsistency in the book.  How 
could Fred and George *not* see the name "Peter Pettigrew" on the 
Marauder's Map constantly around Ron/Percy and think something of 
it?  Certainly they'd've heard of the name and even if they didn't, 
the twins know the rat's name was Scabbers.  So I suppose Crookshanks 
could be a Animagus.  Pigwidgeon, too.  And if Hedwig turned out to 
be an Animagus form of a beautiful woman, Simon would only be too 
pleased.  ;)

*~*~Jana aka George Weasley's Girlfriend~*~*
AIM: Moo11225     ICQ: 97958793    Y!: George_Weasleys_Girlfriend

"It's the same things your whole life. Clean up your room!  Stand up 
straight!  Pick up your feet!  Take it like a man!  Be nice to your 
sister!  Don't mix beer and wine, ever!  Oh yeah, and DON'T drive on 
the railroad tracks!" ? Bill Murray as Phil Connors, in Groundhog Day 
(1993)




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Mar 15 00:10:24 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:10:24 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks Summary
References: <20010314204017.13400.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net> <007601c0acce$8a38e9c0$6d14a3d1@doreen> <3AAFEC21.527ECBFD@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <016801c0ace4$55eb9f80$c13770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 14340

Doreen wrote:

> > The earliest chapter summary that I can find is chapter nine. Can you
> > direct me to the letter number where I might find your chapter
> > summary, please.

Penny replied:

> Chapter 9 is probably the earliest chapter summary on this group.  Don't
> forget that with each chapter summary, there is a character summary.
> Jeralyn did the Animal Characters summary, which was paired with Chapter
> 7.  You will need to go join the Archives group for our former Yahoo
> Club messages (which Smitster thankfully transferred over to an easily
> searchable Yahoogroups for us all).  Yahoo Club messages of this group
> from Oct 1999 through August 24, 2000 are included in this Archive (some
> 7500 or so).  Here's the URL:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives

***

I'll just add that there is a list of the completed chapter summaries with
links, here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion%20Summaries/GoF
Chapters.htm

Okay, okay... I need to update it... and I also need to do a similar table
for the character sketches.  It's somewhere on my list of "things to do
before I die".

You'll find that Jeralyn's piece on Crookshanks et al is within a few posts
of her Chapter 7 summary in the Archives list.

Neil

________________________________________

flying_ford_anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




















From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 15 01:04:23 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 01:04:23 -0000
Subject: Superficial FBWTFT/QTA questions...
In-Reply-To: <98m81p+1bvr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98p4en+5ak6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14341

I've had the schoolbooks since Monday, of course, and have enjoyed 
reading the comments on the books and the JKR chat.  

(BTW, I grinned over Jo Rowling's take on fanfiction and "the answer 
to that is in GoF" comment--nice to see that the Author Herself is a 
tad more forgiving about certain things than some of my HP friends 
are.  But I digress.  ;-))

Danger! 

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

A
B
O
U
N
D

B
E
L
O
W

Milz wrote:
"Before I write my response, I must say that the veil between our 
world and the Potter world has become virtually non-existant."

I smiled on Monday, when I saw that.  Now I'm wondering how and when 
the Muggles will find out about the wizarding world in the series... 
or how JKR will handle the entire "books are not fiction" premise.

"Also, Dumbledore is using Harry's, Ron's and Hermione's name 
recognition for this charitable effort. So it only makes sense that 
the chosen copy will have their names on the register."

The thing that bothers me most about QTA is that Ron's name is not on 
the register.  His comments in FB made up for it, though... it was 
fun trying to figure who wrote what at first, especially on the 
bookplate page.

I, too, wish that we had a handwriting analyst amongst us.  :-)  
Hermione's handwriting on the bookplate page of FB in particular 
interests me... I know we've seen her sig in canon, but it's not what 
I thought it would look like at all.  Harry and Ron's writing seems 
to look like "them" more to me... I don't know why.  Chalk it up to 
reading hundreds and hundreds and hundreds (did I say hundreds?) of 
papers a year--not just in my district, but statewide around MEAP 
time.  Hermione's handwriting doesn't seem Hermione-ish IMO.

There seems to be more discussion about FB than QTA.  Between the two 
texts, I enjoyed the notes in FB but I'd have to say that QTA is my 
favorite.  We got new information about Apparition... that the longer 
you have to go, the trickier it gets.  This makes a lot of sense.

The first broomsticks and subsequent Cactus/Porcupine Butt effect 
made me laugh until my sides hurt.  The #1 thing I want from Harry's 
world is a broomstick and the ability to fly.  But I'd always 
wondered how they could stand to remain mounted on the darn things 
for any length of time.

Glimpses into the magical side of other countries and continents were 
also fun.  I loved the parallel between Quodpot and American football.

I'm not a sports person by any means, but I love Quidditch for some 
strange reason.  Why didn't they offer *that* on my high school's  
intramural field?  

Will re-read QTA tomorrow and pluck out more in-depth questions.

--Ebony (who medaled in track and field until High School Band and an 
embarrassing stint as a Very Bad Softball Player ended her life as an 
athlete)

(P.S.  Amanda!  The medieval pic is WONDERFUL...)




From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 15 01:28:42 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Clayton)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:28:42 +1000
Subject: Conspiracy Theory (Inspired by: When worlds collide)
Message-ID: <F122KtKufVma0osA91E000005ea@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14342

>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>
>S
>P
>A
>C
>E


>
>More thoughts inspired by the forewords:
>
>
>So maybe when Dumbledore reads the Times it has all the news of the
>day...but no mention of a series of books about a kid named Harry
>Potter?
>
>Do the forewords mention JKR, or just Comic Relief?  (The former would
>seem to contradict my theory; the latter lets it stand.)
>
>Amy Z
>

Now here's a conspiracy theory if there ever was one:
If we assume that both the wizards and the Muggles are on the same timeline 
(ie, its 2001 for all of us), then Harry etc are 20 or 21, correct? So 
they've all left Hogwarts and are busy being famous Quidditch players, MoM 
empolyees, Hogwarts professors etc. Meanwhile, JKR (who's a witch, not a 
Muggle) has been engaged by the MoM to write about Harry and publish the 
books for the Muggles. The books are originally aimed at children, who are 
at a more impressionable age compared to grownups. The aim of this is to get 
the next generation of Muggle world-leaders to believe (or want to believe) 
in the wizarding world, and thus paving the way for the 'coming out', as it 
were, of the wizarding world into the Muggle world.

Hoping its true, despite all the evidence I'm sure there is to the contrary,
Liz (who would be the perfect age for Harry if it was true)

-----
'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry.
'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second cousin who's 
an accountant, but we never talk about him.'
-----

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 03:03:16 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 03:03:16 -0000
Subject: killing voldemort/ dumbledore cold & calculating?
In-Reply-To: <3AAFC9B4.2C882424@texas.net>
Message-ID: <98pbdk+30iv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14344

Hi you guys! 
I didn't need a plastic red nose to participate in red nose day... 
*loud hacking coughs and seezes ensue*

Amanda wrote:
"I've been following this thread with interest. I think that Harry may
indeed kill Voldemort, but I think there will be a vital difference 
from killing as V. and the DeathEaters do it---Harry will understand 
the burden he has taken on by taking another life. He will understand 
it and decide that not killing Voldemort would hurt too many people.
This is similar to what a lot of soldiers in WWII had to go through, 
the ones who weren't content with excusing their actions as "under 
orders."

--As a society we have accepted the idea of "fighting fire with 
fire". Therefore it's no suprise that the theme of "fighting evil 
with evil" or "giving someone a dose of their own medicine" is as
common as the situtations in which it arises. But I agree with Amy 
(?) that it is a dangerous message to send in the HP books. I think 
it would be counter productive to the whole message of the series.  

The way I see it if Harry uses AK to kill Voldemort then he is 
stooping to Voldemort's level and is therefore no better than the 
evil he is destroying. Then again I am strongly against violence of 
any kind. I'm not saying that Voldemort SHOULDN'T be destroyed but 
just that I think it would be counter productive to show Harry doing 
it and then be lauded as a hero. (Even if he personally feels guilt.)

Amanda wrote:
"They understood they were personally responsible for the deaths they
were causing, but also understood the bigger picture and judged that 
the price they paid was worth the larger goal."

--It's really a tough moral question. I understand this reasoning, 
but I'm not sure I personally agree with it. Even though one might 
look at the big picture it's still disturbing. I don't think I could 
(or would) end the life of another human no matter what the 
circumstances. If I did my guilt would most likely be worse than any 
physical reprecussions, and the same goes for Harry.  If the "larger 
goal" is to end evil, or a particular evil, then how is using evil 
(killing) ever going to stop it, or even slow it down?

Amanda wrote:
"It will be a choice of Harry's, I think, and the choice will not be 
whether or not to be a killer, but rather whether or not to act to 
save others. It will be a difficult choice if saving others involves 
killing. But by that time, I believe Harry will have matured into a 
person who could face that choice as a real selection of options, not 
a foregone conclusion."

--I agree that by the time Harry has to make a decision of this 
importance and magnitude he will have matured enough to make it 
wisely. I'd say that's what Dumbledore is doing- preparing him to 
learn how to make decisions and act on his own. I think that makes 
Dumbly calculating as Caius said but not exactly coldy calculating as 
he does it with Harry's best interest in mind.

Also here's an alternative thought. What if someone shows Voldemort 
love. Dumbly says that Voldemort cannot understand love. (Is that b/c 
he's never experienced it or b/c he has forgotten it in his road to 
Evil Overlordship?) If Harry were to forgive Voldemort despite his 
past actions what effect would it have?

Scott







From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Mar 15 03:09:38 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 14 Mar 2001 19:09:38 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: killing voldemort/ dumbledore cold & calculating?
Message-ID: <20010315030938.7024.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14345

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010314/c07d7359/attachment.ksh>

From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 03:17:21 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 03:17:21 -0000
Subject: Basilisk Problems (FB spoiler)
Message-ID: <98pc81+60ko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14346

Firstly I am sorry that my last messgage went through twice. Will 
someone (a moderator) delete one of them?

R
E
A
D
 
T
H
E

B
O
O
K
S

W
H
Y
 
D
O
N
T
C
H
A
!

I was wondering about the Basilisk description in FB. Shouldn't it be 
the same as the one that Hermione tore from the book in CoS. Ok, I'll 
even give her that it could have come from another book, but the FB 
description doesn't even mention that the crow of the rooster is 
fatal to it. That seems like an important detail if you ask me...

Scott








From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Mar 15 03:29:01 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 03:29:01 -0000
Subject: killing voldemort/ dumbledore cold & calculating?
In-Reply-To: <20010315030938.7024.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>
Message-ID: <98pctt+9roq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14347

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., voicelady at m... wrote:
> (This will be a rrather short post.  My apologies in advance.)
> 
> On Wed, 14 March 2001, "Scott" wrote:
> 
> > The way I see it if Harry uses AK to kill Voldemort then he is 
stooping to Voldemort's level and is therefore no better than the 
evil he is destroying. Then again I am strongly against violence of 
any kind. I'm not saying that Voldemort SHOULDN'T be destroyed but 
just that I think it would be counter productive to show Harry doing 
it and then be lauded as a hero. (Even if he personally feels guilt.)
> 
> This is why I don't think Harry will be the one to kill Voldemort.  
I think he will have ample opportunity, but not be able to do it.  
That's when Peter will step in and kill Voldemort for him.
> 
> If someone has already postulated this theory, I apologize 
pprofusely for thinking I was original. <g>
> 
> Jeralyn, the Voicelady
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "Oh, obvious," said Granny.  "I'll grant you it's 
> obvious.  Trouble is, just because things are obvious 
> doesn't mean they're true."
> Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> _____________________________________________________________
> This email message was sent via MailStation(tm) - a trademark 
> of CIDCO Incorporated.


Ah, Jeralyn, great minds think alike!

I've been forming this theory ever since Dumbledore told Harry that 
since he'd saved Pettigrew's life that he was in debt to Harry.  My 
theory is that he'll both exonorate Sirius as well as kill 
Voldemort.  

Peace & Plenty,

Parker
----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...' Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Thu Mar 15 03:42:32 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:42:32 -0400
Subject: Crookshanks
References: <984589466.369.12802.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB03A27.C8C60473@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 14348


> > Has anyone covered this yet? Can Crookshanks be an animagi like
> Scabbers? What about Pigwidgeon? (I mean, he was sent to Harry by
> Sirius) Or even Hedwig?
> >
> In GoF when Lupin describes watching the marauders map and seeing
> Peter Pettigrew, the description of what he sees kind of implies that
> Crookshanks does not show up on the map, whereas Peter and Sirius(the
> animagi) do.  Seems from this that animagi would show up, but beasts
> wouldn't.
> 
> Interestingly, when Harry is first given the map he does see Mrs
> Norris on it.  Does this imply something about Mrs Norris, or is it a
> inconsistancy, or did Lupin see Crookshanks on the map, but not
> mention it knowing he was just a pet.

Something I noticed from my recent reread of PS/SS:

"Filch owned a cat called Mrs Norris, a scrawny, dust-coloured creature
with bulging, lamplike eyes just like Filch's."

It made me wonder if Mrs Norris is an animagi relative of Filch's, stuck
in cat form. She has eyes just like his, and as we know, the animal
forms of animagi often share characteristics with the human forms ...

Angela



From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 03:55:35 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 03:55:35 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <3AB03A27.C8C60473@nb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <98pefn+8v6o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14349

Angela wrote:
"It made me wonder if Mrs Norris is an animagi relative of Filch's, 
stuck in cat form. She has eyes just like his, and as we know, the 
animal forms of animagi often share characteristics with the human 
forms ..."

--I was also wondering if perhaps she was is Filch's wife or 
someother relation who was permanently turned into a cat by a 
student. This would explain his hatred of the students and his 
devotion to the cat....

Scott







From linman6868 at aol.com  Thu Mar 15 04:37:01 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 04:37:01 -0000
Subject: dumbledore cold & calculating? revisit of Dunnett :)
In-Reply-To: <98pb2e+hr2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98pgtd+o9kf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14350


Scott said, in response to the lovely Dumbledore sketch:
> 
> --I agree that by the time Harry has to make a decision of this 
> importance and magnitude he will have matured enough to make it 
> wisely. I'd say that's what Dumbledore is doing- preparing him to 
> learn how to make decisions and act on his own. I think that makes 
> Dumbly calculating as Caius said but not exactly coldy calculating 
as 
> he does it with Harry's best interest in mind.

Aha, so it's *Dumbledore* who should be having the Crawfordesque 
nightmares and the migraines!  The London Underground scar must be 
one of many; and if he starts quoting obscure Renaissance literature, 
the parallel will be clinched.  I can't imagine Dumbledore bed-
hopping across Europe, but just imagine him at the top of a house in 
France pelting Death Eaters with flowerpots and shouting "A sangre! a 
fuego! a sacco!"

Nah.

Lisa
--
It's the wrong trousers, Gromit! the wrong trousers!  Help!




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar 15 04:50:20 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 04:50:20 -0000
Subject: Basilisk Problems (FB spoiler)
In-Reply-To: <98pc81+60ko@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98phmc+f0im@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14351

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:
> Firstly I am sorry that my last messgage went through twice. Will 
> someone (a moderator) delete one of them?
> 
> R
> E
> A
> D
>  
> T
> H
> E
> 
> B
> O
> O
> K
> S
> 
> W
> H
> Y
>  
> D
> O
> N
> T
> C
> H
> A
> !
> 
> I was wondering about the Basilisk description in FB. Shouldn't it be 
> the same as the one that Hermione tore from the book in CoS. Ok, I'll 
> even give her that it could have come from another book, but the FB 
> description doesn't even mention that the crow of the rooster is 
> fatal to it. That seems like an important detail if you ask me...

	Exactly the point! Hermione would have had no need to check FB out 
of the library, because it was one of her textbooks from 1st year. 
However, FB doesn't mention about the roosters or the spiders, so she 
wasn't sure of the connection till she found it in  the other book. 
	BTW, I can't imagine *Hermione* tearing a page out of a library 
book. Maybe Riddle did it, to cover his tracks, and Hermione found it 
in a very dusty to-be-repaired file.
	Another thing, FB mentions that the male basilisk has a red plume 
on its head. The basilisk in CoS doesn't, IIRC. Does this mean it was 
female and may have left some eggs or hatchlings around?
Pippin





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar 15 04:56:20 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 04:56:20 -0000
Subject: It's Dementors (Filk)
Message-ID: <98pi1k+ciji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14352

It's Dementors
A filk by Pippin, to the tune of It's  Delovely, by Cole Porter
Dedicated to Caius Marcus, 
(who already used this tune, but you can't keep a good song down)

The scene: Prisoner of Azkaban, chapter 20
Harry and Hermione rush to help Sirius but are surrounded by hundreds 
of evil soul-sucking fiends

Harry:
I feel a sudden urge to faint,  this icy fog would choke a saint
But  control your desire to curse, 'cause angry thoughts just make it 
worse
This spell I've learned seems to be a bit  too difficult to work for me
So to save myself some way,  I'll chant "I'm going to live with him, 
we'll be okay"

Hermione:
The moon is full, the skies are clear
And if you feel such a  stalkin'  fear
It's de-frightful,  it's  de-vicious, it's Dementors

I understand the reason why
You're petrified, 'cause so am I
They're  de-frightful, they're  de-vicious, they're Dementors 

Harry:
At their horrible glance I now fall helpless into a trance
I can hear  cruel Voldemort murdering Mum " No! No! No! No!"

So please be brave, Hermione
Before they kiss us, just say  with me
"It's expecto, it's patronum, " to  Dementors.
It's de spell-a , that can quell-a , those tormentors.
They're de-frightful, they're de-vicious, they're  detestable, they're 
seditious
They're  dismaying, they're de-livid, they're  decaying, they're 
Dementors"






From wigeon at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 15 05:10:44 2001
From: wigeon at mindspring.com (teal)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:10:44 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Basilisk Problems (FB spoiler)
References: <98pc81+60ko@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <022601c0ad0e$4ade3d80$0dcdf7a5@2yxf501>

No: HPFGUIDX 14353


----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott" <harry_potter00 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 7:17 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Basilisk Problems (FB spoiler)


> Firstly I am sorry that my last messgage went through twice. Will
> someone (a moderator) delete one of them?
>
> R
> E
> A
> D
>
> T
> H
> E
>
> B
> O
> O
> K
> S
>
> W
> H
> Y
>
> D
> O
> N
> T
> C
> H
> A
> !
>
> I was wondering about the Basilisk description in FB. Shouldn't it be
> the same as the one that Hermione tore from the book in CoS. Ok, I'll
> even give her that it could have come from another book, but the FB
> description doesn't even mention that the crow of the rooster is
> fatal to it. That seems like an important detail if you ask me...
>

it has to have been a different book, and such a different description - she
got that description from the library, if she'd gotten if from this book
she'd have gotten it from her copy in her room, instead of needing a library
book....

> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 15 05:17:32 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:17:32 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a cure for werewolfs?
In-Reply-To: <98o7bf+r80q@eGroups.com>
References: <98nmnr+if06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314210717.034b6100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14354

At 04:47 PM 3/14/01 +0000, fgcjnk at btinternet.com wrote:
>The charm had just been developed, the developer told Lockhart all
>about it hoping for wider publicity and use for the new charm, but
>Lockhart (selfish git) wiped his memory and the secret behind the
>charm was lost.

This reminds me of Denis Norden's story about discovering the
perfect glue, and then like an idiot putting in a jar and sealing it,
the implacable glue thus locking its own secret away from
humanity forever. :)

Two more theories I can think of:

1. The Homorphus charm is only temporary, so the town *was*
       "saved", but only for one Synodic lunation.
or:
2. The "werewolf" was actually an animagus who turned into
       wolf and the Homorphus charm only forced him to
       become human again.  (Did Lupin and Sirius use the
       Homorphus charm to expose Wormtail?)



                                                 -- Dave




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 15 05:12:14 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:12:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: killing voldemort/ dumbledore cold &  calculating?
References: <98pb2e+hr2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB04F2E.D8050DEE@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14355

Scott wrote:

> I didn't need a red nose to participate in red nose day
> *loud hacking coughs and seezes ensue*

Oh, you poor thing. My kids have been trading a virus around like they'd
toss a beach ball--somebody's been sick, seems like, for months. I can
relate.

> --As a society we have accepted the idea of "fighting fire with fire".
> Therefore it's no suprise that the theme of "fighting evilwith evil"
> or "giving someone a dose of their own medicene" is a common as the
> situtations in which it arises. But I agree with Amy (?) that it is a
> dangerous message to send in the HP books. I think it would be counter
> productive to the whole message of the series.

A good point. But so far as I can tell, the whole message of the series
has to do with choices. Harry's choices so far have mostly been
no-brainers, from the perspective of the reader--by that I mean, you
*know* what he should do, and what he'll probably do, if you know what I
mean. They're getting more complex, though--choices which could go
either way, which are not "preselected" by the reader, like his choosing
to prevent Sirius and Lupin from killing Pettigrew. I imagine they'll
get more complex still.

A complex choice is complex precisely because the answer is not easy.
That sounds simple, but it means that there's a measure of bad and good
in *any* decision, which must be weighed. When you get to really morally
complex choices, you start getting to "intent counts." And I think one
can morally make a choice that involves commission of some degree of
bad, if the intent and pursuit and purpose is good. But not easily, and
not unscathed, and not unchanged--which is part of the choice, that
understanding that you alter yourself, not necessarily to the good. [I'm
reminded of that "using an evil creature (basilisk) for a good end"
discussion some months back, where as I recall, I said you can*not* use
an evil tool to a good end, at least without becoming evil in measure
yourself.]

However, I'm the first to admit that the extremes of considering intent
can go both ways--forgiving a child who manages to do some horrible
thing, because they did so innocently, it was an accident, etc. (good),
or the whole hate-crimes issue, where killing someone is supposedly
worse if you did so because of racial motivation (bad). [they're not
just as dead? it's not a horrible crime regardless? not to mention the
fun of proving motivation]

JKR's world is an interesting mix of both black-and-white (Gryffindors
good, Slytherins bad) and gray (prejudice, fair treatment of
house-elves, etc.). So I think her treatment of any final confrontation
could go either way. I suspect that her world will get grayer as Harry's
perceptions mature.

> The way I see it if Harry uses AK to kill Voldemort then he is
> stooping to Voldemort's level and is therefore no better than the evil
> he is destroying.

Yes and no. It depends on the situation. Seeking someone out, after
mapping their moves and planning your strategy, is assassination any way
you slice it, for any purpose. I would hate to see Harry brought to
that, for that would indeed be on Voldemort's level. But using it in a
combat situation, or as a reflex to prevent the deaths of others, then
any curse he knows is a weapon to hand. In my mind, the latter situation
does not bring Harry to Voldemort's level.

> --It's really a tough moral question. I understand this reasoning, but
> I'm not sure I personally agree with it. Even though one might look at
> the big picture it's still disturbing.

Which is often the reason that most of the WWII vets don't brag a whole
lot. It was a job, it had to be done, they did it, but with no joy and
often carrying the weight forever after. It wasn't just the sacrifice of
leaving hearth and home; it was knowing you were going into a situation
that could, would, change you.

> I don't think I could (or would) end the life of another human no
> matter what the circumstances.

James Mason, actually, got loads of flak (no pun intended) for his
pacifist stance in the war. He refused to take service, and went through
the system set up in Britain to be declared officially a pacifist
non-participant. It's been speculated that he did so to be in a position
to snap up roles left available by the enlistment of other actors, but
all the real research I've done seems to indicate he truly felt the way
you do [It's also been speculated that this refusal to serve was a
reason he was never knighted]. I don't know if the U.S. had a similar
system to be declared a helpful nonparticipant; I would hope so.

> If I did my guilt would most likely be worse than any
> physical reprecussions, and the same goes for Harry.  If the "larger
> goal" is to end evil, or a paticular evil, then how is using evil
> (killing) ever going to stop it, or even slow it down?

Well, answer that one and I'll put your name in for a Nobel in
philosophy. Or human relations. I guess the answer lies in the voice
within, that says whether a particular choice is worth it. Most people
understand that evil will probably not ever be completely stopped,
except Here and For A While, and if you can do that, well, it's helped a
bit. So I guess the extent to which you are willing to go depends on
your own Here and For A While. For example, honestly put yourself in the
position of someone living during the Blitz, with friends and family who
had died, understanding that if your country fell, that horrible things
would most likely happen to the entire rest of the world (for such was
likely)--can you still say with such certainty that you would not make
some effort toward the fight? Harry's Here and For A While will likely
be such high stakes.

> --I agree that by the time Harry has to make a decision of this
> importance and magnitude he will have matured enough to make it
> wisely. I'd say that's what Dumbledore is doing- preparing him to
> learn how to make decisions and act on his own. I think that makes
> Dumbly calculating as Caius said but not exactly coldy calculating as
> he does it with Harry's best interest in mind.

I agree that Dumbledore has had to be calculating. I don't think it's
cold, but it's deliberate. I'm reminded of an example from a book called
"Hanta Yo!" about the Lakotah Sioux, where a man rode out to find his
son after he [the son] had been out doing a fast all day. He found him,
sleeping under a tree, and it says that the man wanted to do nothing
more than to pick up his son, cradle him against his breast, and carry
him home. But what he did do was sneak down next to him and do a war
yell, to test and train him. There is very little room for mistakes in a
hunting, warlike society, and thus very little room for indulging
sentiment. Dumbledore, I think, is in a similar position with Harry.
There's doubtless been times he wanted to be more involved and more
paternal, but he also has very little room for mistakes and thus very
little room for indulging personal sentiment.

> Also here's an alternative thought. What if someone shows Voldemort
> love. Dumbly says that Voldemort cannot understand love. (Is that b/c
> he's never experienced it or b/c he has forgotten it in his road to
> Evil Overlordship?) If Harry were to forgive Voldemort despite his
> past actions what effect would it have?

Oooh. Interesting thought. I'm not sure Voldemort is human enough
anymore for this to make any difference, although his human part is
Harry's blood (pure) and Wormtail's hand (beholden to Harry). But still,
anything that is nurtured on venom is probably past it. You can care
tenderly for a snake, and it will still try to strike you. It may be
part of Harry's choice that he must recognize that Voldemort's own
choices have moved him beyond the pale of humanity. Ugh.

Wonderful post, Scott. Thanks.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 15 05:23:20 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:23:20 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Polyjuice Potion and Snape and/or Draco Parallel Transformations
In-Reply-To: <98m4c0+ld14@eGroups.com>
References: <3AAE944F.322A7EDF@erols.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314211936.034b67b0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14356

At 09:44 PM 3/13/01 +0000, heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu wrote:
>He can't be! Apart from the fact that
>Elizabeth IS Hermione, and there's NO future for the two of them, it
>is clear (in my private universe) that Draco is Darcy.

Did Darcy ever say to Elizabeth "I hope you die, mudblood"?

It seems to me that if anyone is Darcy-esque it's Viktor Krum --
Both reticent and aloof.  (That's *not* to say I'm a VK/HG person!)



                                                 -- Dave




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 05:22:24 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:22:24 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
References: <98oajv+ltv5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006201c0ad0f$ec3e6280$dde01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14357

> I dont know how we are going to get a copy of this book without
> paying for it, which I personally refuse to do.  I checked the

why not check the children's section of your local library? I intend
to look there on my next day off.

Rena


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From naraku at home.com  Thu Mar 15 05:57:59 2001
From: naraku at home.com (Paige Kalika)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:57:59 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] a cure for werewolfs?
References: <98gnff+ilv3@eGroups.com> <4.2.0.58.20010314131702.00b795e0@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <002301c0ad14$e3f4db40$70d6b418@CG198071A>

No: HPFGUIDX 14358

Katie wrote:

>I have a feeling that, as part of the general hysteria and 
>lack-of-understanding of werewolves, that curing werewolves just isn't 
>possible -- and Lockhart himself might not even know it, nor do his readers.

Hmm... I just looked in PoA (my favorite!), and in "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, 
and Prongs," Lupin (also my favorite :) tells Harry: "I was a very small boy 
when I received the bite.  My parents tried everything, but in those days 
there was no cure."  

To me, this implies that there is a cure now, but that it wasn't discovered
in time to be of any use to Lupin.  Perhaps lycanthropy is like rabies in that
in order to cause the disease, it must first travel from the site of infection
to the central nervous system (or wherever the lycanthropic virus(?) settles 
in the body) before the patient begins to show symptoms.  If the patient is 
given the rabies vaccine (not a cure) before the virus gets into the brain,
he or she may not develop the disease.  Lycanthropy and rabies seem to parallel 
each other as it is, so it's conceivable that a similar method was developed 
in the wizarding world.  

Wow- microbiology finally came in handy for something!  If only my Wednesday 
exam were on Harry Potter instead...

Paige (delurking after a few months of admiring everyone's analyses, and finally 
driven to post by micro overload and the need to procrastinate)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 05:58:41 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:58:41 -0800
Subject: Mrs Norris (was Crookshanks)
References: <98pefn+8v6o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012801c0ad14$fe259180$dde01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14359


> Angela wrote:
> "It made me wonder if Mrs Norris is an animagi relative of Filch's,
> stuck in cat form. She has eyes just like his, and as we know, the
> animal forms of animagi often share characteristics with the human
> forms ..."
>
> --I was also wondering if perhaps she was is Filch's wife or
> someother relation who was permanently turned into a cat by a
> student. This would explain his hatred of the students and his
> devotion to the cat....

I would say it's more likely that Filch did it and he cannot undo the
spell. I too was thinking that Mrs Norris is Filch's wife, but that
wouldn't explain the same eyes. Maybe she is his sister?

Rena



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From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar 15 08:26:25 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 02:26:25 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILERS FB
References: <98m815+dc99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00b101c0ad29$a0da4f60$6c14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14360

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

a
n
d

a

b
i
t

m
o
r
e

Has anyone any ideas why we don't see entries for 3-headed dogs or
Dementors in this book?  Please don't tell me dementors are 'beings'
"that is to say worth of legal rights and a voice in the governance of
the magical world".

Florence

Maybe 3-headed dogs are not monsters per say but rather a deformity of
nature, like the 2-headed calf.

I don't think Dementors are beasts. I think the term "beasts" is too good
for them. I think they are beyond human ... like spoiled or rotten human
leftovers that should have gone out with the trash.

Doreen, who has relatives who are Dementors-in-training





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 08:29:28 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:29:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Handwriting in FB/QTA (was Dates)
In-Reply-To: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BED4@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <20010315082928.13732.qmail@web215.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14361


--- Meredith Wilson
<aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org> wrote:
> Amy Z said:
> 
>  
> Y
> O
> U
> 
> P
> O
> O
> R
> 
> T
> H
> I
> N
> G,
> 
> G
> O
> 
> G
> E
> T
> 
> T
> H
> E
> 
> B
> O
> O
> K
> S!
>  
> I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be patient,
> but I haven't gotten
> them in the mail yet dang it!!
>  
> Mer 
> 
Don't feel bad, I don't have mine either. A friend
ordered them for me and will only be bringing them
next time he visits - in July!

Sheryll



=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 08:29:53 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:29:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] FB/QTA 
In-Reply-To: <D8085AFE4BC7D4119EA00090271EDF1503BED4@MAILSRV>
Message-ID: <20010315082953.19746.qmail@web216.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14362


--- Meredith Wilson
<aviationoutreachcoord at museumofflight.org> wrote:
> Amy Z said:
> 
>  
> Y
> O
> U
> 
> P
> O
> O
> R
> 
> T
> H
> I
> N
> G,
> 
> G
> O
> 
> G
> E
> T
> 
> T
> H
> E
> 
> B
> O
> O
> K
> S!
>  
> I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be patient,
> but I haven't gotten
> them in the mail yet dang it!!
>  
> Mer 
> 
Don't feel bad, I don't have mine either. A friend
ordered them for me and will only be bringing them
next time he visits - in July!

Sheryll



=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 08:41:41 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:41:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] waiting for books...
In-Reply-To: <98omq7+l79e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010315084141.13716.qmail@web221.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14363


--- Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Amy Z said:
> > > 
> > >  
> > > Y
> > > O
> > > U
> > > 
> > > P
> > > O
> > > O
> > > R
> > > 
> > > T
> > > H
> > > I
> > > N
> > > G,
> > > 
> > > G
> > > O
> > > 
> > > G
> > > E
> > > T
> > > 
> > > T
> > > H
> > > E
> > > 
> > > B
> > > O
> > > O
> > > K
> > > S!
> > >  
> > > I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be
> patient, but I haven't 
> > gotten
> > > them in the mail yet dang it!!
> > >  
> > > Mer
> > 
> > Me as well, Mer.  I didn't think there would *be*
> any copies on the 
> > shelves, so I ordered mine through the mail.  Owl
> Post would have 
> > been faster. 
> >-Parker
> 
> Me too.  My spoiler above notwithstanding, I'm still
> going on memory 
> from my all-too-brief read in the bookstore, where I
> didn't buy the 
> *&#$% things because I'm waiting for my Chapters.ca
> order.  I wanted 
> to hold out for the untranslated edition.  A quick
> perusal made me 
> think that the only difference was the US price on
> the cover anyway.  
> But I wasn't positive; and I'd already ordered two
> sets, didn't know 
> what I'd do with a third, and thought I could hold
> out.
> 
> Clearly, my plan of getting OoP through Chapters
> needs to be 
> reconsidered, unless they will absolutely guarantee
> that it will go 
> out overnight mail the day it comes out.  No way
> could I endure this 
> kind of delay with one of the novels.  Maybe I'd
> better plan on being 
> in Canada for the midnight release next year.
> 
> Amy Z
> 
Come on up, you can stay at my place for the release
of OoP at Chapters! They had no problem delivering GoF
on time, though. I ordered mine after their deadline
for guaranteed delivery and received it on time
anyway. Wish I had ordered FB and QTA through them
instead of allowing a friend in the US to get them for
me as a gift ('cause then I'd already have them).

Sheryll
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~-~>
> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to
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> high school alumni--chances are you'll find your
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>
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
> 
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> 
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages
> must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to
> make it easier for everyone to sort through the
> messages they want to read and those they don't.
> 
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read
> OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
> join now! For more details, contact the Moderator
> Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
> 
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com) 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar 15 08:45:49 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 02:45:49 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FB/QTA  where to get 'em
References: <98osml+2jbg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d001c0ad2c$564802a0$6c14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14364


> >
> > I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be patient, but I
haven't
> gotten
> > them in the mail yet dang it!!
> >
> > Mer
>
> I found my copies at a local Wal-Mart because Amazon.Com sold out
> (and they almost never go out of stock on stuff I like)
>
> Good luck!

Borders.com still has them in stock.

Marianne
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

M
A
Y
B
E
K-Mart has them here. I didn't get mine from B.Dalton today, got impatient,
tried K-Mart. I rationalized that I would probably wear one copy out using
it for reference anyway... well, it worked for me...

I love the covers ... I almost put QTA back on the shelf, because it had
that "picked up-too-many-times look that some greeting cards get... then I
realized that it was the cover's artwork.  *embarrassed smile*

Doreen, thinking of moving to a different town where there are less Muggles
& more Pottermaniacs





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 11:19:49 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 03:19:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: killing voldemort and opinion on sirius black
In-Reply-To: <98pctt+9roq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010315111949.19181.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14365

Have just finished reading PoA and and haven't read GoF at all so
these comments might be changed after reading the fourth book.  But I
must admit that I think Sirius Black is a serious jerk and that Snape
might have done Harry a future favour if he'd gone ahead and blasted
him with the wand like he so badly wanted to do. The trick played on
Snape as a youth is a pretty good reason for him to hate Black IMO.

As to V. and the big battle, I think JKR will arrange it so that V.
overreaches and destroys himself.  That's how most criminals get
caught: they get too cocky and careless and slip up.  No doubt V.
will make the same mistake and do himself in.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 11:25:50 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 03:25:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
In-Reply-To: <006201c0ad0f$ec3e6280$dde01b3f@rena>
Message-ID: <20010315112550.614.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14366

I (really, really) hope the people who used such strong language
about Ms Stoufer were joking although it didn't sound funny to me.

I'm sure that JKR, her publishers and Time-Warner will have good
lawyers and that it can safely be left to them.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Mar 15 12:16:14 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:16:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Superficial FBWTFT/QTA questions...
References: <98p4en+5ak6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c0ad49$bf4100a0$11421e3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 14367


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ebony AKA AngieJ 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 8:04 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Superficial FBWTFT/QTA questions...
   

  S
  P
  O
  I
  L
  E
  R
  S

  A
  B
  O
  U
  N
  D

  B
  E
  L
  O
  W


  >>I, too, wish that we had a handwriting analyst amongst us.  :-)  
  >>Hermione's handwriting on the bookplate page of FB in particular 
  >>interests me... I know we've seen her sig in canon, but it's not what 
  >>I thought it would look like at all.  Harry and Ron's writing seems 
  >>to look like "them" more to me... I don't know why

  Maybe I'm dense or something, but the names written in the front of QTA all look like they've been written in the same handwriting.  Perhaps Madame Pince writes the names and dates in the books?  I must be a dunderhead, because I can't see any noticeable differences in the handwriting of each name...not as much difference as there would be on a real sign-out sheet.

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From earthwalk at orgio.net  Thu Mar 15 13:07:21 2001
From: earthwalk at orgio.net (Jee H. Lee)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:07:21 +0900
Subject: [HPforGrownups] killing voldemort and opinion on sirius black
In-Reply-To: <20010315111949.19181.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <98pctt+9roq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010315212338.00a428b0@pop6.orgio.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14368

'Lo, all. I'm Earthwalk, a 21-year-old Korean Potterhead who loves to read 
and write. I've been meaning to join for some time, and I'm glad I finally 
found the URL and did so.

>Have just finished reading PoA and and haven't read GoF at all so
>these comments might be changed after reading the fourth book.  But I
>must admit that I think Sirius Black is a serious jerk and that Snape
>might have done Harry a future favour if he'd gone ahead and blasted
>him with the wand like he so badly wanted to do. The trick played on
>Snape as a youth is a pretty good reason for him to hate Black IMO.

Come on, go ahead an read GoF!!!

That said, even though Sirius is my third or fourth favorite character(and 
possibly the hottest man in the books), I actually agree with that 
statement. But then again, Snape is my absolute favorite character in the 
whole series, so I'm not sure what that says about my taste in characters. 
:-)  The trick that Sirius played on Snape was simply despicable, even for 
a sixteen-year-old. Not that it's unreasonable to *want* to kill Snape, 
nasty little git that he is, but to actually carry it out? And in a way 
that would leave the blood on his friend Remus's hands(claws)? That was an 
all-time low for Sirius so far. Come to think of it, Snape had his all-time 
low himself when he tried to do in Sirius. Talk about bringing out the 
worst in each other. *rolls eyes*

It's a little disturbing to me that Sirius had that kind of violent yet 
sneaky tendency even before Azkaban. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a 
really great guy, but he does have a ruthless side to him, a dark streak. 
And yeah, it was definitely a reason for Snape to hate him, though it 
doesn't justify Snape's not even bothering to listen before trying to take 
Sirius to the Dementors. I'm not sure I would have been any better in such 
a situation, though.

Actually, I rather do understand Snape's behavior at the end of PoA. As far 
as I can see, he was motivated by his concern for Harry's safety as well as 
for revenge. Wait, before you laugh me off the list(*whimper* it's only my 
second day!)--I think he really *was* concerned for Harry's safety all 
through PoA. He wasn't nice about it, but all his harsh words and actions 
had one direction: Keeping Harry inside Hogwarts, away from the dangerous 
murdering lunatic Black. This may well have come up before--sorry if it 
has. I'm only in the three hundreds in the archives. But yeah, in the 
Shrieking Shack, I believe Snape was a) hating Black's guts & wanting 
revenge  b)hating the late Potter's guts  c) hating Lupin's guts  d) all 
excited and big-headed in his prospect for glory  e) angry at that arrogant 
Potter boy and his friends for willfully disobeying school rules and 
hanging out with a murderer and a werewolf  f)  hopping mad at Potter for 
putting his own life on the line when so much depended on him  g) driven by 
the need to save Potter's skin yet again. His main motive may have been 
revenge, but he was also watching out for Harry.



>As to V. and the big battle, I think JKR will arrange it so that V.
>overreaches and destroys himself.  That's how most criminals get
>caught: they get too cocky and careless and slip up.  No doubt V.
>will make the same mistake and do himself in.

Yeah, it might go somewhere along that line. The problem is, how. The most 
standard process would be that Voldie enjoys continuing victory while our 
heroes struggle and die out. Then Voldie gets a decisive chance to strike 
the fatal blow at the forces of good, then makes a Stupid Evil Overlord 
Mistake and causes his own downfall. We all know that Voldie is no model of 
objectivity considering his own greatness,  so it's possible his bloated 
head will result in his ruin. Somebody send this guy the Evil Overlord 
handbook so he won't make the same mistakes. If he's going to be a S.E.O., 
I at least want the Stupid Mistake to be original.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 15 13:08:16 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:08:16 -0000
Subject: Conspiracy theory - Mrs. Norris - HG book/writing - etc.
Message-ID: <98qes0+t46t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14369

S
M
A
L
L

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

F
O
L
L
O
W


>The aim of this is to get 
>the next generation of Muggle world-leaders to believe (or want to 
believe) 
>in the wizarding world, and thus paving the way for the 'coming out', 
as it 
>were, of the wizarding world into the Muggle world.
<snip>
>Liz (who would be the perfect age for Harry if it was true)

It's certainly working.  I hope they "come out" in my lifetime!  I 
want a tour of Hogwarts before I die.  Unfortunately, I'm an HP 
'tweener; the only people who are my age are Bill and Charlie, and 
they just aren't my types.  But 8 years isn't too big a gap, right? 
(eyes Marauders)

Scott wrote:

>--I was also wondering if perhaps she was is Filch's wife or 
>someother relation who was permanently turned into a cat by a 
>student. This would explain his hatred of the students and his 
>devotion to the cat....

Yeah!  A blood relation, like his daughter.  And he can't counteract 
the magic because he's a Squib.  He's been taking Kwikspell courses 
feverishly ever since that tragic day, hoping he'll be able to learn 
enough to bring her back, and too proud to ask Dumbledore to remove 
the curse.  I'm not kidding; I think it fits his ornery character.

Pippin wrote:

>BTW, I can't imagine *Hermione* tearing a page out of a library 
>book. Maybe Riddle did it, to cover his tracks, and Hermione found it 
>in a very dusty to-be-repaired file.

This out-of-character moment has bugged me ever since I first read it. 
 I like your explanation.  LOL to your filk, too, Pippin!

>Doreen, who has relatives who are Dementors-in-training

You mean people whose presence makes you relive the worst moments of 
your life and who suck all the happiness out of a room?  Sigh...yeah, 
I know what you mean.

Magda bravely wrote:

>But I  must admit that I think Sirius Black is a serious jerk and 
that Snape
>might have done Harry a future favour if he'd gone ahead and blasted
>him with the wand like he so badly wanted to do.

Oh, boy, I'm ducking.  I don't want to be hit by crossfire on that 
one.  Magda, it'll be interesting to see whether 4 changes your mind. 
 (What are you doing on the computer?  You managed to lift your head 
from the pages of an unread HP?!)

Ender wrote:

>Maybe I'm dense or something, but the names written in the front of 
QTA all
>look like they've been written in the same handwriting.  Perhaps 
Madame Pince
>writes the names and dates in the books? 

I think Madam Pince must write them.  Or her magical 
signout-and-date-stamp quill (she's a busy woman).

BTW, someone (Ebony?) said Hermione's handwriting didn't look right.  
It's described as something like small and neat (beginning of PA, I 
think)--I pictured printing, not writing, but otherwise this is about 
what I figured.  What do you picture?

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I've got two Neptunes here," said Harry after a while, frowning 
 down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?"
   "Aaaaah," said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical
 whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign
 that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry. . . ."
                                      -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar 15 14:02:13 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:02:13 -0000
Subject: point by point analysis of the Stouffer articles
Message-ID: <98qi15+5rfv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14370

First, 2 notes (so nobody else has to go to her website front page & 
give it "hits"):
1. There's an "excerpt" from the book at 
http://www.realmuggles.com/intro.html
2. This info about the "publisher" is provided: Thurman House LLC, 5 
Park Center Court, Suite 300, Owings Mills, MD 21117, (410)902-9100

Now, comments on the Ananova version of the article:

<<In addition, Ms Stouffer says the Rowling books use similar 
illustrations. At a press conference, Ms Stouffer and her publisher 
distributed illustrations of Larry Potter the author said she 
designed in the 1980s. The pictures show at least a superficial 
resemblance: like Harry Potter, Stouffer's character has oversized 
glasses and wavy dark hair.>>

Superficial is right. The picture shown on the Stouffer site shows a 
grown up man with brown (NOT BLACK) hair and eyes that look to be to 
be brown. What's the similarity here? That they're both male?

<<Ms Stouffer is the author of 13 books, which she said were created 
with the idea of licensing the characters. Her original publisher, 
Ande, went bankrupt in 1987.>>
Of course, the article doesn't say how many of the 13 books were 
published. Also, someone noted yesterday (was it Joywitch?) that the 
Stouffer books are not in the library of congress - in the US, this 
means that any books she wrote after 1979 are protected by copyright, 
but if she didn't do registrations when they were published, she 
doesn't get statutory benefits on the OFF CHANCE she wins her case - 
among those benefits are additional damages & attorney's fees. BTW, 
in the US, NOW, a copyright registration costs under $40, including 
postage. I can't even imagine how cheap it was in the mid-80s... 

<<A Pennsylvania resident, Ms Stouffer filed her lawsuit last March 
in the District Court in Philadelphia. The suit names JK Rowling and 
Scholastic Inc, the US publisher of the Harry Potter books.>>
The Pennsylvania case was dismissed last year on various legal 
grounds. There is, at present, no suit in Pennyslvania between 
Stouffer and anyone relating to the Rowlling books, unless it's been 
reinstituted without coming to my attention (possible, not probable, 
since Stouffer would likely get all publicity-happy about it). 

<<Scholastic, Rowling and Time Warner filed their own lawsuit in 
November, asking a judge to rule that the Harry Potter books do not 
violate Stouffer's trademark and copyright.>>
This implies that it was filed in November 2000, after Stouffer's 
suit. It wasn't. It was filed in November 1999, and some of the 
counterclaims Stouffer filed in this litigation have been dismissed 
already.







From bassettlover at aol.com  Thu Mar 15 15:11:56 2001
From: bassettlover at aol.com (bassettlover at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:11:56 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: spouse theory
Message-ID: <bf.c6510f2.27e235bd@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14371

In a message dated Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:28:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Doreen" <nera at rconnect.com> writes:


Somebody snap that girl's wand! What a horrible idea!!! Snape and
McGonagall? ewwww Now, McGonagall and Dumbledore ... yes ... Snape? Never!
*evil snicker* I see Snape as more the Veela type. Maybe he sneaks one into
his Hogwarts apartment.... and that explains why he is so pesky when he has
to go check out what the children are up to when they are out and about
without permission.

 >>

Snape and McGonagall?  I too say that that's well, horrible.  I do want to point out that Dumbledore and McGonagall is also wierd.  In a chat, JKR said that McGonagall was seventy or seventy-five, I don't remember which.  She also said that Dumbledore is 150.  That makes McGonagall half or less of Dumbledore's age, wouldn't that be wierd, too?  Oh, yes, I'm new, I just joined.  I'm also sorry if someone already replied, excuse this, and probably ignore it.

Jennifer



From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 15 15:16:20 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:16:20 -0600
Subject: opinion on sirius black
References: <98pctt+9roq@eGroups.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010315212338.00a428b0@pop6.orgio.net>
Message-ID: <3AB0DCC3.1D94F0AF@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14372

Hi --

"Jee H. Lee" wrote:

> Magda said: >Have just finished reading PoA and and haven't read GoF
> at all so these comments might be changed after reading the fourth
> book.  But I >must admit that I think Sirius Black is a serious jerk
> and that Snape
> >might have done Harry a future favour if he'd gone ahead and blasted
> >him with the wand like he so badly wanted to do. The trick played on
> >Snape as a youth is a pretty good reason for him to hate Black IMO.
>
> Then, Earthwalk said: That said, even though Sirius is my third or
> fourth favorite character(and possibly the hottest man in the books),
> I actually agree with that statement. But then again, Snape is my
> absolute favorite character in the whole series, so I'm not sure what
> that says about my taste in characters. :-)  The trick that Sirius
> played on Snape was simply despicable, even for a sixteen-year-old.
> Not that it's unreasonable to *want* to kill Snape, nasty little git
> that he is, but to actually carry it out? And in a way that would
> leave the blood on his friend Remus's hands(claws)? That was an
> all-time low for Sirius so far. Come to think of it, Snape had his
> all-time low himself when he tried to do in Sirius. Talk about
> bringing out the  worst in each other. *rolls eyes*

Well, there will be plenty of Sirius Black fans who will jump in & point
out various things but I'll just give my cursory thoughts.  First, we
don't know the full story about the infamous Black Werewolf Prank on
Snape.  We only know little snippets of information .... and we sure
have never heard Sirius comment on it.  So, I'm not sure it's a great
idea to jump to conclusions about what happened, what the motivations
were, etc.  My opinion is that we just don't have enough info to condemn
Sirius (or assume that Snape was an innocent wronged victim in the whole
thing).

> It's a little disturbing to me that Sirius had that kind of violent
> yet
> sneaky tendency even before Azkaban. Don't get me wrong, I think he's
> a
> really great guy, but he does have a ruthless side to him, a dark
> streak.

I feel certain Carole & Monika will jump in here but I disagree that
Sirius has a ruthless side to him.  There's obviously some serious
enmity between he and Snape, but I don't think this necessarily means
that Sirius is violent or has a dark temperment.  In fact, his
interactions with Harry and others in GoF belie this entirely IMO.
Magda hasn't read GoF yet (you *really* shouldn't read these posts
without having read all 4 books as there are spoilers in virtually all
of them these days but anyway) ... but I thought the Sirius of GoF is
much more likely to be the Sirius of pre-Azkaban days.

Out of time to comment further at this point but I have no doubt that
more serious Sirius fans will jump in where I've left off!

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 15 15:04:37 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:04:37 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: OT messages to move to the OTChatter List (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AB0DA05.987E469C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14373

Hi everyone --

Starting this week, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup. This is in order to make it easier to sort
through messages and reduce overall message volume on this list.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

You will need to join this list, but as with any yahoogroup, you may set
your subscription options to (a) individual emails, (b) digests or (c)
webview only.  There are about 60 or so members over there already, and
the message volume promises to be high.  So, if you might not care much
about OT posts or care only now & again, the webview option might be a
good choice.

On this OT-Chatter list, you may discuss anything unrelated to Harry
Potter (subject to the rule against inflammatory topics - see below),
and you should, in addition, discuss the following HP-related things on
this list rather than the main HPforGrownups list (this is *not* an
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*** Fanfic recommendations (recommending/discussing a fanfic by someone
else - unless
it can be tied to canon)

*** Listings of HP merchandise collections

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R/H)

*** Detailing your results on a HP Quiz or Sorting Hat test

*** Short, fun posts, such as 'Tom Swifties'

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*** Opinions on HP artwork, book covers and other paraphernalia

*** Definitions or explanations of British words, phrases and traditions
related to HP

***  Exchanges of cultural information between the Americans and the
Brits

*** Anything that you would preface with "This is slightly OT but ..."

We wish this area of the club to remain friendly and welcoming, so the
Moderators will step in if any thread appears to be veering in a
contentious direction.   Examples of prohibited subjects include
politics and The Holocaust.

This message will be resent every day for the next 2 weeks.  If you've
read it once, there will be no need to re-read it.  We just want to be
sure that everyone gets the message.  Don't be surprised if you get an
e-howler (or at least a friendly reminder) from one of the Moderators if
you violate the OT policy.

Thanks for listening (more ADMIN messages to come -- please continue to
read them as they are important).

Penny
The Moderator Team









From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 15 15:03:02 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:03:02 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Observation about Merchandise Posts
Message-ID: <3AB0D9A6.E14C6D6E@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14374

Hi --

I just wanted to make a general observation that I think that posts that
do more than say "I don't have my schoolbooks yet!  I want them
....where are they?" belong in OT-Chatter.  Obviously, substantive
comments & questions relating to the schoolbooks belong on the main
group, but could I nicely ask everyone to move non-substantive points
over to OT-Chatter?  Thanks ever so!

Please also remember that news links belong over on HP-Announcements
now.  For copyright reasons, please also keep in mind that we prefer you
post a link to a news article in HP-Announcements rather than cutting &
pasting the article into your email (and sending it to the main group).
But, comments about a news article (such as the one about the Stouffer
books) are on-topic for the main group.

Thanks for your cooperation -- I think this new system will all make
more sense to everyone when we all have the hang of it a bit better.

Penny




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 15 15:05:43 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:05:43 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Announcements List is up & running (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AB0DA47.DA1F5F0A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14375

Hi everyone --

Your Moderator Team has been hard at work, looking for ways to reduce
message volume and keep the main group friendly & organized.

We've set up another sister Yahoogroup -- the HP4GU - Announcements
list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

This list is intended for those who want to receive announcements about
HP news, book release dates, fanfic plugs by the author, notification of
new merchandise, as well as periodic summaries of what the main group
has been discussing (including those members who cannot cope with the
high posting rate on the main list).

Please note that we are requiring the types of announcements that you
see listed below be made *only* to the Announcements List.  This will
reduce message volume on the main group.  The only messages that will be
duplicated will be the ADMIN messages posted to the main group and
copied to the Announcements list.

To manage the volume on this list, it is a moderated group.  This means
that one of the Moderators on the Moderator Team must approve your
message before it gets sent out to the list.

The following announcements are permitted (not an exhaustive list -
please check with the Moderators if you are unsure about your message):

*** The HPforGrownUps Newsletter (edited by Jeralyn and Ebony)

*** ADMIN messages from the Moderator Team (copies of those posted to
the main group)

*** Announcements of chat room sessions

*** Announcements of new discussion summaries posted to the main list

*** Plugs of fanfiction (one plug per chapter by the author)

*** Plugs of HP-related events (including regional Members' meetings)

*** Plugs of new HP websites or of new HP information on other websites

*** News releases, with links (this should include things related to the
Warner Brothers' movie)

*** Fun HP links, such as Sorting Hat quizzes

*** Alerts to new HP merchandise

*** JKR sightings; JKR events (book signings, tours, TV appearances,
chats, etc.)

*** Information on HP fan clubs

Again, we encourage everyone to join this group as well.  The message
volume should remain relatively low & focused (because the Moderators
must approve each message, you can be assured that the subject heading
will be relevant!).

Please remember that beginning March 12th, fanfic plugs, merchandise
sightings, news links and the like need to be posted *only* to the
Announcements list.  This message will be repeated several times over
the next few weeks to be sure everyone is aware of the changes.

Thanks --

Penny




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 15 15:06:50 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:06:50 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Spoilers for the JKR Schoolbooks (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AB0DA8A.BA60C3F0@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14376

Hi everyone --

The Moderator Team has decided to require spoiler warnings & spoiler
space for discussion of the schoolbooks released this week (March
12th).  These 2 books are: Quidditch Through the Ages and Fantastic
Beasts and Where to Find Them.

For those of you unfamiliar with spoiler warnings, etc. -- here's a
brief review.  Put something like the following as your subject heading:
Quidditch book (SPOILER WARNING).  Include a minimum of 15 lines of
spoiler space before typing your message.  If you are replying, be sure
to include spoiler space and put your reply *under* the part that you
are replying to (ensuring plenty of spoiler space).  Here's how it
should look:

After your greeting, type the following

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

This will allow anyone who inadvertently opens your message to avoid
seeing any text.

Again, this ADMIN message will be sent out daily through the end of next
week.  We are currently thinking that spoilers should stay in place
about 2 weeks from the release date of March 12th.  You will be notified
when spoilers are no longer required.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team
















From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 15:44:44 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 15:44:44 -0000
Subject: killing voldemort/ polyjuice affecting  personality?dumbledore cold&calculating?
In-Reply-To: <3AAFC9B4.2C882424@texas.net>
Message-ID: <98qo1c+oe8m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14377

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> 
> I've been following this thread with interest. I think that Harry 
may
> indeed kill Voldemort, but I think there will be a vital difference 
from
> killing as V. and the DeathEaters do it---Harry will understand the
> burden he has taken on by taking another life. He will understand it 
and
> decide that not killing Voldemort would hurt too many people.
> 
> This is similar to what a lot of soldiers in WWII had to go through, 
the
> ones who weren't content with excusing their actions as "under 
orders."
> They understood they were personally responsible for the deaths they
> were causing, but also understood the bigger picture and judged that 
> the price they paid was worth the larger goal.
> <snip> The end may well justify the means---depending on the end and 
> the means. It will be a choice of Harry's, I think, and the choice 
> will not be whether or not to be a killer, but rather whether or not 
> to act to save others. It will be a
> difficult choice if saving others involves killing. But by that 
time, I believe Harry will have matured into a person who could face 
that choice as a real selection of options, not a foregone conclusion.
>  
> 

Wow!  Lots of thought on this thread.  

Very interesting thoughts, and I can see where you're coming from.  I 
accept that that is the case in some instances - that people do make 
that choice, so I take your point.  I hope that if that is the 
scenario that plays out, that Harry will be able to deal with it, and 
see it as you explained it.  
I still have a hard time accepting it in this instance, though.  And 
while in part that's my problem (delicate sensibilities and all that), 
in part I still feel like it came from JKR.  
What I mean is, Crouch Sr and the aurors who followed his lead in 
using the unforgiveable curses on the baddies... they made that 
decision, I think.  And yet JKR had Moody, who is admired and 
respected by Arthur Weasley and Dumbledore both, decide not to use 
them.  Or maybe my memory is wrong, and it was just that he didn't use 
them if he could avoid it or something, in which case my whole feeling 
on the subject is based on a faulty memory, and it's just my own 
qualms holding me back.  I'm ok with it being something I personally 
couldn't do, as everyone is different.  As long as they don't go 
against what JKR has set up so far, I'm ok.  I think I'm gonna have to 
look  back through GoF.  Unless anyone else remembers this bit?

kimberly
who wishes she had a searchable version of these crazy books




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 15:45:49 2001
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 15:45:49 -0000
Subject: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
In-Reply-To: <98olml+9346@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98qo3d+q80p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14378

My local paper showed a pic of one of the covers; it's similar enough 
to the UK/Canadian HP cover layout that a countersuit may be in order!

  As for Peg, I've yet to see any of her books in a bookstore :( 
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, though.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> Sorry, I just cannot hide my choler. This opportunistic whore makes 
me 
> ill.
> 
> I do not believe that the books are going to sell. What 
> self-respecting child is going to be seen with them. I have been 
> unable to find ANY info about Thurman House-- are we sure it is not 
a 
> vanity press? If it is, it WON'T get reviews from the publications 
> that count.
> 
> May the fleas of a thousand camels infest her armpits!!
> 
> Suzanne
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., NOTaMuggleFamily at a... wrote:
> > > > Children's Books To Be Reissued
> > > > 
> > 
> > > > ``The Legend of Rah and the Muggles,'' whose author is suing 
> J.K. 
> > > Rowling for 
> > > > stealing her ideas, will be reissued by Thurman House in May, 
> the 
> > > publisher 
> > > > announced Wednesday. The book was first published in 1984 and 
> > went 
> > > out of 
> > > > print a few years later, long before the Potter series began. 
> > > 
> > > I suspect we may be seeing these horrible books in bookstores, 
> > since 
> > > Stouffer is clearly taking advantage of the popularity of HP to 
> > strut 
> > > her own lack of talent.
> > 
> > Oh, great. Now I have 3 important jobs whenever I walk into a 
> > bookstore. Put Peg Kerr (peg? are you lurking?) books in high 
> profile 
> > places, make sure no books are covering my friend Brad Meltzer's 
new 
> > book The First Counsel, and HIDE HIDE HIDE all copies of the 
> stouffer 
> > book. Lori? Can you keep them out of your Borders entirely?




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 15:48:00 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:48:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: opinion on sirius black
In-Reply-To: <3AB0DCC3.1D94F0AF@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010315154800.31900.qmail@web11109.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14379

> Well, there will be plenty of Sirius Black fans who will jump in &
> point out various things but I'll just give my cursory thoughts.  
> First, we don't know the full story about the infamous Black 
> Werewolf Prank on Snape.  We only know little snippets of 
> information .... and we sure
> have never heard Sirius comment on it.  

Actually, when Lupin explains delicately to Harry, Herm. & Ron what
happened, Sirius "sneers" that Snape deserved it for trying to get
them expelled.  (Don't have the book with me so can't quote the
sentence but that's the verb JKR uses.)

I had another thought last night: what if Dumbledore told Snape that
Harry would be coming to Hogwarts and that he (Dumbledore) wanted
Snape to have the responsibility of keeping Harry safe.  Imagine the
horror!  So all the carping and bullying of Harry is okay because
it's just a safety valve for Snape's feelings and doesn't presage
actual abuse.

Because the one issue in this series I have a little trouble with is
Dumbledore's acquiescence in Snape's harassment of his pupils,
especially Neville Longbottom.  I recognize (and applaud) JKR's
statement that dealing with bad teachers is a fact of life but
there's a line and sometimes Snape crosses it.  

It's just one of those little signs that the author is not North
American.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar 15 15:53:24 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:53:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: spouse theory
References: <bf.c6510f2.27e235bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005701c0ad68$1286c4c0$8a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14380

Doreen writes:
Somebody snap that girl's wand! What a horrible idea!!! Snape and
McGonagall? ewwww Now, McGonagall and Dumbledore ... yes ... Snape? Never!
*evil snicker* I see Snape as more the Veela type. Maybe he sneaks one into
his Hogwarts apartment.... and that explains why he is so pesky when he has
to go check out what the children are up to when they are out and about
without permission.

Snape and McGonagall?  I too say that that's well, horrible.  I do want to
point out that Dumbledore and McGonagall is also wierd.  In a chat, JKR said
that McGonagall was seventy or seventy-five, I don't remember which.  She
also said that Dumbledore is 150.  That makes McGonagall half or less of
Dumbledore's age, wouldn't that be wierd, too?  Oh, yes, I'm new, I just
joined.  I'm also sorry if someone already replied, excuse this, and
probably ignore it.

Jennifer

Hi Jennifer! Welcome!
First of all, I don't believe that it matters how many people reply to any
given question/statement. Everyone is allowed to voice their opinion on any
subject, as long as they keep within the rules.

As to why I think Dumbledore & McGonagall make a good couple, in spite of
their age differences, is because I think they are compatible and are great
friends. They are also at ages where the span between them probably doesn't
make that much difference.
Doreen




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Mar 15 15:53:14 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 15:53:14 -0000
Subject: about ghosts
Message-ID: <98qoha+p843@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14381


 
In chapter 8 of HP and the Chamber of Secrets, Nearly Headless Nick 
receives a letter from the Headless Hunt. This letter is said to be 
transparent.
 Can?t ghosts in the HP series touch human (wizard to be exact) 
equipment/material? When NHN makes Peeves crash the cabinet over 
filch?s office to save harry, is this beacuse he himself cannot do 
it? 
 So in that case, do they have their own, transparent ghost-stuff? 
Everything from ink to chairs? (if so, how do they make those things?)


/Jennifer
"Snape might even now be playing Fluffy to sleep"
(HP and the Philosophers Stone)

 





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar 15 15:55:32 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 15:55:32 -0000
Subject: killing voldemort/ polyjuice affecting  personality?dumbledore cold&calculating?
In-Reply-To: <98qo1c+oe8m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98qolk+7r3t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14382

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> > What I mean is, Crouch Sr and the aurors who followed his lead in 
> using the unforgiveable curses on the baddies... they made that 
> decision, I think.  And yet JKR had Moody, who is admired and 
> respected by Arthur Weasley and Dumbledore both, decide not to use 
> them.  Or maybe my memory is wrong, and it was just that he didn't 
use 
> them if he could avoid it or something, in which case my whole 
feeling 
> on the subject is based on a faulty memory, and it's just my own 
> qualms holding me back.  

In canon, there is a statement that Moody had killed death eaters, 
and I used that canon statement as the basis for a paragraph in my 
fanfic, A Surfeit of Curses (Snape is speaking to Draco here, right 
after the Ferret Incident):

The Professor didn't answer the question directly, but just 
said, "Since you know all those things,, then you've probably also 
figured out why Moody was so harsh with you before, and with me. 
Anyone who was involved with You Know Who, even if they were under 
the Imperius Curse, Moody thinks of as a Death Eater. He'd have all 
those people in Azkaban if he had his way. He killed Death Eaters, 
those who were supporting You Know Who out of their own free will, 
and those who were under various curses and potions." Draco noticed 
that Professor Snape rubbed his arm again, the same way he had 
earlier. "And because of that, it certainly looks like he has it in 
for you. Please, Draco, tell me if he treats you differently than any 
other Slytherin. I am sure Moody is going to keep a close eye on 
certain of my students, including you, so stay away from Potter and 
Weasley this year as well. If you see them up to their usual hijinks, 
don't confront them ? just tell me."

I will look through GoF tonight, but if my memory is correct on this, 
Sirius is the one who said it...




From bassettlover at aol.com  Thu Mar 15 16:07:24 2001
From: bassettlover at aol.com (bassettlover at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:07:24 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
Message-ID: <6e.89713bc.27e242bd@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14383

Joywitch said:  "Not only seen as, but actually doing so, IMHO. What a horrible, 
stupid, @#$%&* person this Stouffer is!!!

I had volunteered to go to the Library of Congress and read Stouffers 
so-called work, but as her old publisher never sent a copy to the 
Library, she has never been listed in their catalog.

I dont know how we are going to get a copy of this book without 
paying for it, which I personally refuse to do.  I checked the 
Library of Congress catalog recently and Stouffer is still not 
listed, but that would make sense if the book is not being published 
until May.  However even if this publisher does send the requisite 
copies to the Library of Congress, the Library takes quite awhile to 
put new acquisitions into circulation, as much as a year.

I suspect we may be seeing these horrible books in bookstores, since 
Stouffer is clearly taking advantage of the popularity of HP to strut 
her own lack of talent."

First of all, doesn't evry single book published in the US have to have a copy in the Library of Congress?  For the getting a copym of the book, why not just go to a book store, sit down and read it?  That's what I always do, I rarely buy books, and if the library doesn't have it, reading it in a bookstore works fine.  We don't know what Stouffer's books are like, but most likely they aren't very good, a key to why she's acting thhis way.  I can say that I'm almost positive that they won't be as popular as HP, but I do want to read them, to  see what they are like. 





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar 15 16:17:37 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:17:37 -0000
Subject: Copyright Law (was Re: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued)
In-Reply-To: <6e.89713bc.27e242bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <98qpv1+7fpu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14384

heidi's copyright law lesson of the day:
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bassettlover at a... wrote:
> First of all, doesn't evry single book published in the US have to 
> have a copy in the Library of Congress?  

Yes, as a matter of law. Deposit in the collections of the Library of 
Congress of published works is mandatory under section 407; 
registration of a copyright cliam with accompanying deposit copies is 
voluntary under section 408. If my memory is correct, Section 407 
deals with published works and 408 deals with unpublished works. She 
claims her works were published (otherwise, she gets NO trademark 
protection although she gets some copyright protection)

To enforce the legal obligation of the owner of a work depositing it 
with the Library of Congress/Copyright Office, or to ensure a more 
rapid deposit of a work the Library needs promptly, the Register of 
Copyrights may make a written demand for the required deposit at any 
time after publication.

If the required deposit is not made within 3 months of the demand, 
the person or organization obligated to make the deposit is liable 
for a fine of not more than $250 for each work plus the retail price 
of the copies; if the refusal to comply is willful or repeated, an 
added fine of $2,500 may be incurred.





From kdemcak at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 15 16:19:16 2001
From: kdemcak at hotmail.com (kdemcak at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:19:16 -0000
Subject: Superficial FBWTFT/QTA questions...
In-Reply-To: <000a01c0ad49$bf4100a0$11421e3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <98qq24+9uaa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14385

>   S
>   P
>   O
>   I
>   L
>   E
>   R
>   S
> 
>   A
>   B
>   O
>   U
>   N
>   D
> 
>   B
>   E
>   L
>   O
>   W
> 
> 
>   >>I, too, wish that we had a handwriting analyst amongst us.  :-)  
>   >>Hermione's handwriting on the bookplate page of FB in particular 
>   >>interests me... I know we've seen her sig in canon, but it's not 
what 
>   >>I thought it would look like at all.  Harry and Ron's writing 
seems 
>   >>to look like "them" more to me... I don't know why
> 
>   Maybe I'm dense or something, but the names written in the front 
of QTA all look like they've been written in the same handwriting.  
Perhaps Madame Pince writes the names and dates in the books?  I must 
be a dunderhead, because I can't see any noticeable differences in the 
handwriting of each name...not as much difference as there would be on 
a real sign-out sheet.


No, you're not dense, all of the names written in QTA are in the same 
handwriting, presumably Madame Pince's.  But the post above was 
referring to the front page of FB&WTFT, where you can see Harry's, 
Ron's, and Hermione's handwriting -- which are definitely 
distinguishable.

Me, I think Hermione's handwriting fits her -- it's so regular and 
careful; each of the letters is perfectly formed and p




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Mar 15 16:56:27 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:56:27 -0000
Subject: When worlds collide
In-Reply-To: <98nkim+ei6j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98qs7r+puma@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14386

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> B
> L
> A
> H
> 
> B
> L
> A
> H
> 
> B
> L
> A
> H
> 
> More thoughts inspired by the forewords:
> 
> The trouble with REALLY bringing together the two worlds, HP and 
ours, 
> is that ours has fictional books about HP in it.  If our world is 
> their world, then Dumbledore will soon start reading about this 
> fiction phenomenon whose heroes are the people of his very real 
world. 
>  Some fanfictions deal with this explicitly and explain how Muggle 
JKR 
> (or witch JKR) wrote the books pretending, or perhaps believing, 
that 
> they were fiction.  
> 
> If Harry really gave permission to reprint his FB in 2001, no 
> surprise; he is beyond embarrassment at this point.  We already 
know 
> countless private thoughts of his from Rowling's books, and he 
knows 
> it because, for heaven's sake, half the kids at Dudley's school 
read 
> HP voraciously.  They think it's fiction, but that's little comfort 
to 
> the boy whose secret crush is immortalized in the fastest-selling 
book 
> in history.
> 
> An alternative is that the two worlds are exactly the same *except* 
> that the Muggle world of the books doesn't have a bestselling 
author 
> named J.K. Rowling in it.  I thought about this when I first saw 
Star 
> Trek IV: The Voyage Home, the one where they come back to 1980's 
San 
> Francisco to find humpback whales.  The San Francisco they return 
to 
> is just like the one we know--except for the very odd fact that 
it's 
> clear that no one in THAT SF has ever seen Star Trek.  In the real 
San 
> Francisco, far from thinking Spock is a weirdo, people would be 
> rushing up to shake his hand and examine his ears.  The plot works 
> fine if 20th century San Franciscans have never heard of Star Trek--
it 
> would fall apart if they had.
> 
> So maybe when Dumbledore reads the Times it has all the news of the 
> day...but no mention of a series of books about a kid named Harry 
> Potter?  
> 
> Do the forewords mention JKR, or just Comic Relief?  (The former 
would 
> seem to contradict my theory; the latter lets it stand.)
> 
> Amy Z
> 

The forewords DO mention J. K. Rowling. Here's the quote 
from "Beasts" 

"...making it possible for proceeds from the sale of this book to go 
to a fund set up in Harry Potter's name by Comic Relief UK and J. K. 
Rowling."

"Quidditch" has a similar sentence too.

The thing about the Rowling Potter books is this: all the events in 
them have already happened in "Harry time". The first book took place 
in the early 1990's. The seventh book will have taken place in 1998-
1999. Harry Potter in the year 2001 is 21 years old and probably 
doesn't closely physically resemble his 11 year old self. So it's 
quite possible that Harry can go about the Muggle world unrecognized 
in 2001.

The theory I've always had about the Rowling books is that Rowling is 
Harry's biographer. Hermione in SS/PS told Harry he has been written 
about in at least 3 books (can't remember the titles off-hand). 
Moreover there's that line in SS/PS that basically states something 
like books will be written about Harry and children all over the 
world will read them.

Actually, it would be funny if we find out in book 7 that "J. K. 
Rowling" is the pen name for one of Harry's classmates! 

:-)Milz




From ajpresto at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 17:07:26 2001
From: ajpresto at yahoo.com (ajpresto at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:07:26 -0000
Subject: FBWTFT:Hangman game
Message-ID: <98qsse+or0n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14387

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

S
L
O
W

P
E
O
P
L
E

(Man, that is hard to type)

I'm sure this has been discussed, but the answer to the hangman game in the front of FBWTFT is "Acromantula." Now you know.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Mar 15 17:08:40 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:08:40 -0000
Subject: Schoolbooks?
In-Reply-To: <006c01c0acd9$95718760$0100000a@joywelan>
Message-ID: <98qsuo+5r99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14388

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "- Joy -" <joy0823 at e...> wrote:
> Does anyone know if more schoolbooks are planned?  I haven't heard 
anything
> either way, but I'd love to read some of the books referenced in the
> footnotes to QTA and FB.


I haven't read anything about more schoolbooks to be published but I 
would like to read a some of the ones mentioned in the footnotes.

s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e

For example I would love to read a book about Uric the Oddball. I bet 
he is Hagrid's role model!

Also, I would like to read "Hairy Snout, Human Heart" by Anonymous. 
When I initially read that footnote, I thought maybe Lupin is the 
author and lives off the profits of that book. 

:-)Milz




From bohners at pobox.com  Thu Mar 15 17:40:29 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:40:29 -0500
Subject: Dementors in FB
Message-ID: <01ce01c0ad77$ecef67c0$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14389

First, some spoiler space...

D
A
R
T
H

V
A
D
E
R

I
S

L
U
K
E
'
S

F
A
T
H
E
R

It's been said several times on this group that people were surprised not to
see the Dementors in FB&WTFT.  I have a dissenting view.  I think they are
in there, but in a sort of "larval form".

After reading the entry on the Lethifold -- in which JKR takes pains to
point out that they can only be repelled by the Patronus spell, and even
gives us a long anecdote to reinforce the point -- I immediately came to the
conclusion that the Dementors were in some way derived from Lethifolds.

This could have happened in one of two ways:

a) by a third party magically crosspollinating the Lethifold with another
creature (most likely a Vampire) to create a Dementor; or

b) by the Dementor being merely a Lethifold which has consumed a certain
number of victims and thus has become so much "thicker and fatter" that it
has taken on humanoid shape.

If a) is true, it might be important to ask ourselves who created the
Dementors in the first place.  Voldemort?  Grindewald?  Or some evil wizard
of the more distant past?  Might this become important later on?

Some things to ponder...
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From bohners at pobox.com  Thu Mar 15 17:46:45 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:46:45 -0500
Subject: Hogwarts Location Confirmed in FB?
Message-ID: <01cf01c0ad77$ee2e5060$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14390

More spoiler space...

R
O
S
E
B
U
D

W
A
S

C
I
T
I
Z
E
N

K
A
N
E
'
S

S
L
E
D

If there was one thing I took away from FB&WTFT, it was the information that
Hogwarts is not merely in the north of England, but in fact in Scotland.
Harry's scribbled comments on the Acromantula and Merpeople both indicate
this is the case.  Maybe I am three feet thick for not having realized this
before, but I found it interesting.  Why don't we see more Scottish students
at Hogwarts, I wonder?  I can't really think of one character whose name
makes me think they are anything but English, except for Seamus Finnegan of
course.

Mind you, I can't think of any conspicuously Welsh students either.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 17:54:09 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:54:09 -0000
Subject: point by point analysis of the Stouffer articles
In-Reply-To: <98qi15+5rfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98qvk1+10cht@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14391

Has anyone made the point that far from being DAMAGED by Harry Potter, 
Stouffer has calculated managed to reap a great deal of benefit 
and free publicity by filing her lawsuit?

After all she hasn't been much a success before this, has she? Now she 
is on CNN and getting coverage through AP.

Ugly! Ugly! Ugly! Feh! Feh!

--Suzanne



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> First, 2 notes (so nobody else has to go to her website front page & 
> give it "hits"):
> 1. There's an "excerpt" from the book at 
> http://www.realmuggles.com/intro.html
> 2. This info about the "publisher" is provided: Thurman House LLC, 5 
> Park Center Court, Suite 300, Owings Mills, MD 21117, (410)902-9100
> 
> Now, comments on the Ananova version of the article:
> 
> <<In addition, Ms Stouffer says the Rowling books use similar 
> illustrations. At a press conference, Ms Stouffer and her publisher 
> distributed illustrations of Larry Potter the author said she 
> designed in the 1980s. The pictures show at least a superficial 
> resemblance: like Harry Potter, Stouffer's character has oversized 
> glasses and wavy dark hair.>>
> 
> Superficial is right. The picture shown on the Stouffer site shows a 
> grown up man with brown (NOT BLACK) hair and eyes that look to be to 
> be brown. What's the similarity here? That they're both male?
> 
> <<Ms Stouffer is the author of 13 books, which she said were created 
> with the idea of licensing the characters. Her original publisher, 
> Ande, went bankrupt in 1987.>>
> Of course, the article doesn't say how many of the 13 books were 
> published. Also, someone noted yesterday (was it Joywitch?) that the 
> Stouffer books are not in the library of congress - in the US, this 
> means that any books she wrote after 1979 are protected by 
copyright, 
> but if she didn't do registrations when they were published, she 
> doesn't get statutory benefits on the OFF CHANCE she wins her case - 
> among those benefits are additional damages & attorney's fees. BTW, 
> in the US, NOW, a copyright registration costs under $40, including 
> postage. I can't even imagine how cheap it was in the mid-80s... 
> 
> <<A Pennsylvania resident, Ms Stouffer filed her lawsuit last March 
> in the District Court in Philadelphia. The suit names JK Rowling and 
> Scholastic Inc, the US publisher of the Harry Potter books.>>
> The Pennsylvania case was dismissed last year on various legal 
> grounds. There is, at present, no suit in Pennyslvania between 
> Stouffer and anyone relating to the Rowlling books, unless it's been 
> reinstituted without coming to my attention (possible, not probable, 
> since Stouffer would likely get all publicity-happy about it). 
> 
> <<Scholastic, Rowling and Time Warner filed their own lawsuit in 
> November, asking a judge to rule that the Harry Potter books do not 
> violate Stouffer's trademark and copyright.>>
> This implies that it was filed in November 2000, after Stouffer's 
> suit. It wasn't. It was filed in November 1999, and some of the 
> counterclaims Stouffer filed in this litigation have been dismissed 
> already.




From ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com  Thu Mar 15 18:07:17 2001
From: ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com (Erich)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:07:17 -0500
Subject: my addition to Fantasic Beasts and where to find them
References: <98qvk1+10cht@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c0ad7a$c58643e0$3b82d2cc@rochester.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14392

Okay I know,,,I have too much time on my hands...Well I also have more to add I have a lot of ideas, on this...Hope you enjoy.


 
El Chupacabra
M.O.M. Classification: XXX
 El Chupacabra found in Northern and Southern America. It is about 3 feet in height. Hairy reptilian in appearance, large eyes, small horns, small arms with razor sharp claws, and leathery wings. Its most remarkable feature is its pointed tongue. After subduing an animal, the Chupacabra will use it's tongue to puncture a hole into the animal's body. And with it's incredible suction can remove vital organs through the tongue. Like sucking a beverage through a straw. It main diet consists of mostly livestock, sheep and cows.

 The first known Muggle sighting of the creature came in 1956, and has increased in recent years, especially on the east coast of America, including Puerto Rico.

 El Chupacabra is believed to be another creation of Ambrose Ackerly. Who is known for his bizarre, illegal and often dangerous dragon cross breading. His most know disaster was in 1871, when living in Chicago, Illinois, he attempted to cross breed a dragon with a cow. The end result didn't live very long, and just as it was about to utter it's first word exploded, and it ignited what the Muggles refer to as the "Great Chicago Fire"1.  Ambrose evaded capture, and was last heard heading for Central or South America.

 

 1. A full account of the incident will be published soon

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 15 18:05:17 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:05:17 -0500
Subject: in defense of sirius black
References: <98pctt+9roq@eGroups.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010315212338.00a428b0@pop6.orgio.net>
Message-ID: <01de01c0ad7a$8fc45d00$6145d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14393

As Penny stated I just can't help stepping up to the plate.  As you read
this keep in mind Sirius is my favorite character and I am not a snape fan
to say the least....so I may be biased but have spent a great deal of time
analyzing Sirius' character...so here goes.  First you might want to read
the character summary posted a couple of weeks ago and the discussion
generated by it, we discussed a lot of this.  Particularly whether the
violence shown by Black in PoA is a character trait or a result of the
mental trauma of seeing his best friends killed as a result of his
arrogance, being framed by another friend and spending 12 years wrongfully
imprisoned in a hell-hole designed to make the inmates lose their will to
live.

Magda wrote

> >Have just finished reading PoA and and haven't read GoF at all so
> >these comments might be changed after reading the fourth book.  But I
> >must admit that I think Sirius Black is a serious jerk and that Snape
> >might have done Harry a future favour if he'd gone ahead and blasted
> >him with the wand like he so badly wanted to do. The trick played on
> >Snape as a youth is a pretty good reason for him to hate Black IMO.

As Jee Lee said:

> Come on, go ahead an read GoF!!!

You may change your mind after reading GoF

Then Jee wrote:
>
> The trick that Sirius played on Snape was simply despicable, even for
> a sixteen-year-old. Not that it's unreasonable to *want* to kill Snape,
> nasty little git that he is, but to actually carry it out? And in a way
> that would leave the blood on his friend Remus's hands(claws)? That was an
> all-time low for Sirius so far.

Ok here's my take on the werewolf inciden.  Sirius is 16 (as is Snape).
Snape has been following the marauder's and is constantly looking over their
shoulders and threatening to turn them in and get them expelled.

Sirius has had it with Snape and says..."ok he wants to know where Remus
goes every month...I'll tell him where Remus goes every month."  I really
don't think he actually thought through the implications of telling Snape.
He has shown that character trait (not thinking thoroughly about his
actions...and this is certainly typical of a 16 yo boy)

So Snape proceeds to use the information to see what Remus was up to (slimy
nosy git that he is).  No one compelled Snape to use the info Sirius gave
him.  I don't think Snape is completely blameless in this incident.  He was
probably breaking more than one rule in taking the info that Sirius provided
and acting on it.  I'm not saying he got what he deserved, but no one forced
him into that tunnel.

Yes, what Sirius did was wrong, but its like the kids who throw rocks off a
bridge.  They are justlittle rocks, until they get bigger and suddenly they
kill someone.  16 year old boys are not known for their forethought or
judgement.

Sirius did not lead Snape into the tunnel.  He simply told him where Lupin
went...and let Snape act on it...I agee he should have really been more
cautious and think through that, but...

I really don't see this incident as an indicator of a violent streak in
Sirius.

> It's a little disturbing to me that Sirius had that kind of violent yet
> sneaky tendency even before Azkaban. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a
> really great guy, but he does have a ruthless side to him, a dark streak.

I really don't see a ruthless side to him.  He has had some violent
outbursts in PoA.  Monika and I strongly believe these are manifestations of
a post-traumatic stress disorder and the stress and frustration associated
with trying to get to Pettigrew before he hurts Harry.

If you look at the incidents in which Sirius is shown in PoA in that light,
I think his actions make a lot more sense...and show a guy who's much more
than a violent short-tempered jerk.  It also jives more with the character
that appears in GoF

He really does show a caring side in GoF.  I see him as intensely loyal to
his friends, and as someone with rather high standards for himself and
others.  He is extremely guilty about his decision to switch secret-keepers
and has had 12 years to relive that courtesy of the dementors.  That would
make anyone less than stable.

I do agree he is the sexiest man in the books, so that may color my
judgement.

carole






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar 15 18:20:46 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:20:46 -0000
Subject: Death Eaters in Disguise (filk)
Message-ID: <98r15u+1k2m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14394

Death Eaters in Disguise
A filk by Pippin, to the tune of Ghost Riders in the Skies
Dedicated to the Malfoy fandom

The Death Eaters were marching on a warm and cloudy night
They  never were  arrested they escaped the prisoner's plight
So Muggleborn  be wary cause the enemy is nigh
Or you might get turned upside down and floated  in the sky

Yip-i-ya-a, Yip-i-ya-o, Death Eaters in disguise

And as my schoolmates rushed on by I called on them by name
If you want to save your friends from us, you'd best get out of range
So keep that bushy head down as from  us you must  fly
Or you'll be with the Roberts's a-floating  in the sky.

Yip-i-ya-a, Yip-i-ya-o, Death Eaters in disguise

The Ministry is busy, Malfoys have them in a sweat
They're working hard to catch our lot, but they ain't caught us yet
When all at once the Dark Mark like a green and starry skull
Appeared amidst the ragged skies and terrified us all

Yip-i-ya-a, Yip-i-ya-o, Death Eaters in disguise

The tents were still on fire as  I back to camp did steal
Could You Know Who have made a comeback, could it all be real?
A bolt of fear went through us and it stilled our drunken cries
We're You Know Who supporters, but we hid behind our lies

Yip-i-ya-a, Yip-i-ya-o, Death Eaters in disguise







From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 18:28:41 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:28:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] in defense of sirius black
In-Reply-To: <01de01c0ad7a$8fc45d00$6145d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20010315182841.55205.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14395

> Ok here's my take on the werewolf inciden.  Sirius is 16 (as is
> Snape). Snape has been following the marauder's and is constantly 
> looking over their shoulders and threatening to turn them in and 
> get them expelled.
> 
> Sirius has had it with Snape and says..."ok he wants to know where
> Remus goes every month...I'll tell him where Remus goes every 
> month."  I really don't think he actually thought through the 
> implications of telling Snape.
> He has shown that character trait (not thinking thoroughly about
> his actions...and this is certainly typical of a 16 yo boy)

> I really don't see this incident as an indicator of a violent
> streak in Sirius.

So Snape goes into the tunnel and is killed by Remus Lupin.

Let's say for the sake of argument that a Snapeless world would be a
better place and that getting rid of Snape in and of itself is an
acceptable goal.

But what was he going to say to Lupin when he resumed human form? 
"Hey, good going, you really mauled him!"  What kind of a friend sets
up another friend to become a murderer when he's in no condition to
stop himself?

I'll start GoF on the weekend but I'd better see some way impressive
stuff from Mr. Black before I change my opinion.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Thu Mar 15 18:31:40 2001
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (skywalker1 at ibm.net)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:31:40 -0000
Subject: Why didn't Harry get an award?
Message-ID: <98r1qc+f5nn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14396

Hello,
  I'm sorry if this has already been discussed but while I was 
listening to CoS on the way into work this morning it struck me as 
odd that Harry (and maybe Ron and Hermione too) ought to have been 
given an award for stopping the heir of Slytherin and the basilisk.  
Afterall, 50 years previous, Tom Riddle was given an award for the 
very same thing and HE sure didn't deserve it.
  Any thoughts?

Brian




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 15 18:46:59 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:46:59 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: When worlds collide
In-Reply-To: <98qs7r+puma@eGroups.com>
References: <98nkim+ei6j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315104115.00beea80@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14397

At 04:56 PM 3/15/01 +0000, absinthe at mad.scientist.com wrote:
>Harry Potter in the year 2001 is 21 years old and probably
>doesn't closely physically resemble his 11 year old self. So it's
>quite possible that Harry can go about the Muggle world unrecognized
>in 2001.

Especially if -- as I have been theorizing -- his scar vanishes and he
won't need glasses any more after Voldy is fried.

BTW, as a boost to my theory, I find it interesting that nearly all the
Witches/Wizards connected with glasses -- Harry, James, Percy,
McGonnegal, probably Dumbledore -- were/are Gryffindors.  I wonder
what house Rita S. and Moaning Myrtle were in??



                                                 -- Dave




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Mar 15 18:47:34 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:47:34 -0000
Subject: Death Eaters in Disguise (filk)
In-Reply-To: <98r15u+1k2m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98r2o6+vdp0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14398

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> Death Eaters in Disguise
> A filk by Pippin, to the tune of Ghost Riders in the Skies
> Dedicated to the Malfoy fandom
> 
> I actually know the tune to this & can sing it!  Maybe it's time we 
rented some studio time & recorded some of these.  I can just see it 
now 'Volume I:  The Harry Potter Filks'

Great job, Pippin!

Peace & Plenty,

Parker

----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 15 18:51:36 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:51:36 -0600
Subject: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
References: <6e.89713bc.27e242bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AB10F37.D4952D09@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14399

Hi --

bassettlover at aol.com wrote:

> First of all, doesn't evry single book published in the US have to
> have a copy in the Library of Congress?  For the getting a copym of
> the book, why not just go to a book store, sit down and read it?

They aren't currently available in any bookstore.  They've been out of
print for years and were never circulated in anything other than small
drug-store chains in the northeastern US.  The Library of Congress never
received any copies of her books -- they were probably published by a
small vanity press.  The publisher went bankrupt at some point in the
1980s.

She is apparently now selling copies off her website (is that right
Suzanne?).  But, one of us would have to buy one off her site to get
them since the Library of Congress doesn't have a copy (and neither does
*any* public library in the US.  Once they are available in bookstores,
that will be an option but the news article quoted yesterday said late
2002.  Is that a typo?  Should it be late 2001?  Or, more likely, are
they saying 2002 because they must wait until the conclusion of the
pending lawsuit(s)?

You'll find that many of us consider Stouffer to be an opportunistic
hag.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 15 18:54:43 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:54:43 -0600
Subject: Why didn't Harry get an award?
References: <98r1qc+f5nn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB10FF3.D3BE55C5@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14400

Hi --

skywalker1 at ibm.net wrote:

> Hello,
>   I'm sorry if this has already been discussed but while I was
> listening to CoS on the way into work this morning it struck me as
> odd that Harry (and maybe Ron and Hermione too) ought to have been
> given an award for stopping the heir of Slytherin and the basilisk.
> Afterall, 50 years previous, Tom Riddle was given an award for the
> very same thing and HE sure didn't deserve it.
>   Any thoughts?

He and Ron were both awarded Special Awards for Services to the School &
200 points apiece.  Granted, I think Hermione should have gotten an
award also but .... there you go.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From margdean at erols.com  Thu Mar 15 19:25:28 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:25:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] in defense of sirius black
References: <20010315182841.55205.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AB11728.2CB28A9@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14401

Magda Grantwich wrote:
> 
> > Ok here's my take on the werewolf inciden.  Sirius is 16 (as is
> > Snape). Snape has been following the marauder's and is constantly
> > looking over their shoulders and threatening to turn them in and
> > get them expelled.
> >
> > Sirius has had it with Snape and says..."ok he wants to know where
> > Remus goes every month...I'll tell him where Remus goes every
> > month."  I really don't think he actually thought through the
> > implications of telling Snape.
> > He has shown that character trait (not thinking thoroughly about
> > his actions...and this is certainly typical of a 16 yo boy)
> 
> > I really don't see this incident as an indicator of a violent
> > streak in Sirius.
> 
> So Snape goes into the tunnel and is killed by Remus Lupin.
> 
> Let's say for the sake of argument that a Snapeless world would be a
> better place and that getting rid of Snape in and of itself is an
> acceptable goal.
> 
> But what was he going to say to Lupin when he resumed human form?
> "Hey, good going, you really mauled him!"  What kind of a friend sets
> up another friend to become a murderer when he's in no condition to
> stop himself?

Hmmmm, perhaps it was Sirius's "inner canid" sabotaging his
thought processes.  By this time he's so used to thinking of
Remus as "packmate" that he's forgotten (in a way) that he's
=dangerous= in wolf form.  After all, he's not dangerous to
Padfoot, is he?  (As a side note, I wonder if that isn't part of
why Remus =is= more under control when he's with his Animagus
friends.  Wolves are pack animals, so being with a "pack" is a
big stress reducer.)

James Potter, OTOH, is a lot less prone to this mistake.  I kind
of see him going dead white when Sirius tells him what's going
on.  "Sirius, are you MAD?" just before he goes bounding down the
stairs like a deer . . .  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 15 19:26:03 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:26:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] in defense of sirius black
References: <20010315182841.55205.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <027101c0ad85$c7294480$6145d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14402


----- Original Message -----
From: "Magda Grantwich" <mgrantwich at yahoo.com>

>
> So Snape goes into the tunnel and is killed by Remus Lupin.
>
> Let's say for the sake of argument that a Snapeless world would be a
> better place and that getting rid of Snape in and of itself is an
> acceptable goal.
>
> But what was he going to say to Lupin when he resumed human form?
> "Hey, good going, you really mauled him!"  What kind of a friend sets
> up another friend to become a murderer when he's in no condition to
> stop himself?

A 16 year old who didn't really think that far ahead.  We've all heard
incidents of teenagers doing really stupid things that have turned out
horribly.  These mistakes don't necessarily indicate that the teen is a
violent git.  He definitely lacks foresight, and lacks maturity big time,
but does it indicate a rotten to the core calculating murderer...ready to
let a friend eat an enemy...I don't get that impression.

If Sirius had been mature enough to think through his actions (and remember
all he did was to tell Snape where Lupin went and how to get past the
Whomping willow...no one forced Snape to carry through on those
instructions) he probably would not have told Snape anything.  I see Sirius
blurting out where Lupon is and how to get there in a fit of annoyance at
Snape poking his nose in where it didn't belong for the thousandth time...I
don't really see him planning ahead of time to tell Snape then see what
happens.  The impression I get is that Sirius told Snape...then later that
night he casually mentioned it to James who (being much more mature)
thought...holy $%$# and dashed out to "save" Snape.

Lacking forsight is definitely a trademark of Mr. Black's pre-Azkaban days.
You can see it in his decision to switch secret-keepers.  If he'd thought
through.."what happens if the trick doesn't work and V finds out Peter is
the secret-keeper"...even if peter weren't the spy, he'd be an easier target
to break.  Its kind of like hiding your valuables in a fake coke can rather
than a safe.  The safe is the first place they look, but its hard to get
into...the fake coke can just might fool them, but if it doesn't you're up a
creek.  The coke can is clever, but probably not the best idea if you think
through all the consequences.  I see his decision to switch secret-keepers
in the same light.

And if he didn't have a lot of foresight at 21 (or whatever age they were
when lily and james were killed) he certainly wouldn't  have had much at 16.


>
> I'll start GoF on the weekend but I'd better see some way impressive
> stuff from Mr. Black before I change my opinion.
>

Its not going to be a dramatic change in that he's only in a handful of
scenes.  They are devoid, however, of any violence or otherwise unredeeming
behavior and much more paternal towards Harry.  I will be interested in your
impression when you get done GoF.

carole





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Thu Mar 15 19:37:47 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:37:47 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] in defense of sirius black
In-Reply-To: <01de01c0ad7a$8fc45d00$6145d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKOECMCBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 14403


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carole Estes [mailto:lrcjestes at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 7:05 PM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] in defense of sirius black
> 
Carole wrote:

> As Penny stated I just can't help stepping up to the plate.  

So do I... Sirius is my favorite character, too, and I just cannot
stay put if someone says he's a violent jerk... You really should 
read the recent character discussion in the archives of the list.
If you say that Sirius is violent and ruthless, you should consider
where he has spent the last twelve years and extrapolate to the
"real" world. Think about what happens to people who are
wrongly imprisoned and tortured, and I don't speak of prisons
in the so-called "civilized" world. Azkaban isn't a normal prison,
most people go mad in there because dementors cause clinical
depression, that is sheer psychological torture. You cannot
spend 12 years in such a place and get away unscarred. And as
Carole has pointed out, Sirius had already been traumatized when
he was sent to Azkaban, not exactly the right place to recover.

> Magda wrote
> 
> > >Have just finished reading PoA and and haven't read GoF at all so
> > >these comments might be changed after reading the fourth book.  But I
> > >must admit that I think Sirius Black is a serious jerk and that Snape
> > >might have done Harry a future favour if he'd gone ahead and blasted
> > >him with the wand like he so badly wanted to do.

I heartily disagree here. You imply that Snape would have been right to
kill an innocent man, or even worse, feed him to the dementors? I know
that Snape *believed* he was right because Sirius was a wanted criminal
in the wizarding world, but since *we* know better, I just cannot agree
with you. Sirius was unarmed and defenseless, and he certainly wasn't
a danger to anyone at that moment.

> Then Jee wrote:
> >
> > The trick that Sirius played on Snape was simply despicable, even for
> > a sixteen-year-old. Not that it's unreasonable to *want* to kill Snape,
> > nasty little git that he is, but to actually carry it out? And in a way
> > that would leave the blood on his friend Remus's hands(claws)? That was an
> > all-time low for Sirius so far.

We have had this kind of discussion a while ago, too. I agree with Carole
that 16 year old boys aren't always very sensible, that they don't think
through their actions and are in general rather immature. And keep in mind
that Sirius didn't drag Snape up the Astronomy tower and then pushed him
off the tower in the intent to kill him. Nothing would have happened if Snape
hadn't been so nosy. No one forced him to follow Lupin into the tunnel.
And I am pretty sure that Sirius felt *very* bad when he realized what 
consequences his prank could have had. I agree with Penny that we 
don't know the whole story, we only know Snape's PoV. 

> > It's a little disturbing to me that Sirius had that kind of violent yet
> > sneaky tendency even before Azkaban. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a
> > really great guy, but he does have a ruthless side to him, a dark streak.

I cannot see neither a dark streak nor a ruthless side here. It was thoughtless
and dangerous, but it doesn't indicate a character flaw IMO. It's a sign
of immaturity, nothing more.

Carole wrote:

> I really don't see a ruthless side to him.  He has had some violent
> outbursts in PoA.  Monika and I strongly believe these are manifestations of
> a post-traumatic stress disorder and the stress and frustration associated
> with trying to get to Pettigrew before he hurts Harry.

I couldn't have said it better. Sirius has a mental disorder caused by
his traumatic experiences during the past 13 years. This isn't as far fetched
as it might sound, but what he is been through perfectly qualifies as
major traumatic stressors. If you do a web search for traumatic stress,
you will find a lot of information about what kind of events cause PTSD
and what the symptoms are. The kind of behavior Sirius shows in PoA
is a classic example of PTSD. It's not a character trait, it's a clinical
condition. He will recover a bit until GoF, and his behavior in book 4
wouldn't make any sense at all if you saw his violence in PoA as a
character trait.

Just my two knuts.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html  



From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 15 19:35:10 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:35:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] in defense of sirius black
References: <20010315182841.55205.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> <3AB11728.2CB28A9@erols.com>
Message-ID: <027701c0ad87$0d09a520$6145d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14404


----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret Dean" <margdean at erols.com>

> >
> > So Snape goes into the tunnel and is killed by Remus Lupin.
> >
> > Let's say for the sake of argument that a Snapeless world would be a
> > better place and that getting rid of Snape in and of itself is an
> > acceptable goal.
> >
> > But what was he going to say to Lupin when he resumed human form?
> > "Hey, good going, you really mauled him!"  What kind of a friend sets
> > up another friend to become a murderer when he's in no condition to
> > stop himself?
>
> Hmmmm, perhaps it was Sirius's "inner canid" sabotaging his
> thought processes.  By this time he's so used to thinking of
> Remus as "packmate" that he's forgotten (in a way) that he's
> =dangerous= in wolf form.  After all, he's not dangerous to
> Padfoot, is he?  (As a side note, I wonder if that isn't part of
> why Remus =is= more under control when he's with his Animagus
> friends.  Wolves are pack animals, so being with a "pack" is a
> big stress reducer.)

Ooooo I really like this point.  This would explain why Sirius didn't think
twice about putting Snape in such danger.  I like this a lot!

>
> James Potter, OTOH, is a lot less prone to this mistake.  I kind
> of see him going dead white when Sirius tells him what's going
> on.  "Sirius, are you MAD?" just before he goes bounding down the
> stairs like a deer . . .  :)
>
Yes, that is just how I see it happening.  See previous post

carole







From xine48 at ync.net  Thu Mar 15 19:54:42 2001
From: xine48 at ync.net (xine48 at ync.net)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:54:42 -0000
Subject: FB/QTA 
In-Reply-To: <20010315082928.13732.qmail@web215.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <98r6m2+hphk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14405

> >  
> > I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be patient,
> > but I haven't gotten
> > them in the mail yet dang it!!
> >  
> > Mer 
> > 
> Don't feel bad, I don't have mine either. A friend
> ordered them for me and will only be bringing them
> next time he visits - in July!
> 
> Sheryll

I ordered mine from Amazon.uk.co last week. They were shipped from 
the uk on Saturday the 10th and I recieved them on the 14th 
yesterday.  By the way, I live near Chicago, IL.

I hope you get yours soon.
christine




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar 15 20:10:31 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:10:31 -0000
Subject: in defense of sirius black (Long, Rambly)
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKOECMCBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <98r7jn+fsqp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14406

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...> wrote:
> If you say that Sirius is violent and ruthless, you should consider
> where he has spent the last twelve years and extrapolate to the
> "real" world. Think about what happens to people who are
> wrongly imprisoned and tortured, and I don't speak of prisons
> in the so-called "civilized" world. Azkaban isn't a normal prison,
> most people go mad in there because dementors cause clinical
> depression, that is sheer psychological torture. You cannot
> spend 12 years in such a place and get away unscarred

You can't even spend 12 years in such a place, starting when you're 
21, and end up unscarred and permanently changed. 
I don't know if any of you have ever spoken to someone who was sent 
to prison at 21 (which is, as we extrapolate now, the age Sirius was 
when we went to Azkaban). I have, when I was in law school. 
Even muggle jails do more than cut you off from the day to day world -
 you lose the connection to stupid things like fashion and television 
shows and movies and sometimes music (although most prisons in the US 
allow at least some tv & music, so that's not an absolute). You lose 
the ability to age and grow - or at least, it becomes completely 
twisted onto itself. 
And so it is in the books. In so many ways, even apart from the 
psychological (and likely physical (how thin was sirius when he 
escaped? how malnourished?)) trauma of being in Azkaban, Sirius 
really hasn't grown up since he was 21 in any of the ordinary ways. 
If you're over 22, just think about all the silly little day to day 
things you've done since  you were 21 - in our Muggle world, it's 
things like living on your own, going on bad dates (although I doubt 
that sirius would've had such things (at least from his perspective) 
if he'd had a normal life), going to weddings and baby namings and on 
vacations with your friends and your lover, getting involved with 
politics or causes or beliefs, trying and testing life and learning 
who you are, as a grownup you.
Over the past few weeks, since a certain column on fanfiction.net, 
some people have discussed whether the Harry & Hermione in Paradigm 
of Uncertainty were out of character, given how they behaved in 
Canon. I gave, as an example, myself. The Me I was when I was 21 or 
28 is the same as the Me at 14 in terms of my principles (i.e. books 
are good, honesty is important) but a character sketch of me at 21 or 
28 would not resemble me at 14 in any but the most superficial ways 
(and even that wouldn't match, given that I had short straight brown 
hair at 14 and long blondish curls at 21). 
But what if that whole Change In Character period of one's life is 
somehow put into a box, and you never get to experience it? I'm not 
saying it makes a person bad or dangerous or untrustworthy. I am 
saying, though, that it must be understood in context.




From bohners at pobox.com  Thu Mar 15 20:29:33 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 15:29:33 -0500
Subject: Animagi & Personality
Message-ID: <028101c0ad8e$bba6b580$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14407

It's been noted that JKR's comments about animagi appear to indicate that a
wizard doesn't pick the animal they become -- they become an animal which is
in some way expressive of their personality.  That being the case, what do
the forms of the various animagi we know tell us about them?

Rita Skeeter (beetle) - a low sort of person, always crawling around digging
up dirt and bugging people.  But she's also a flying insect, which makes her
doubly a pest, and able to attack her victims from above as well as below.
The smallness of her size says something about the pettiness of her spirit.

Peter Pettigrew (rat) - in slang, to "rat" is to betray a confidence, and
what could be more appropriate?  Rats are also great survivors because they
have no scruples and no discrimination -- they'll do whatever it takes to
stay alive.  They're at home with all kinds of filth and they spread
disease.  Again, Peter's small size suggests spiritual limitation.

Minerva McGonagall (cat) - Prefers neatness and order.  Concerned with
personal appearance.  Not given to overt emotional displays.  Authoritative,
even dictatorial.  Can be touchy:  beware of rubbing the wrong way.  Cats
are fairly small, though nowhere near as small as rats or beetles:  don't
know whether this tells us anything negative about McGonagall or not.

Sirius Black (dog) - tremendous loyalty and capacity for deep affection.
Can be savage when backed into a corner, or when loved ones are threatened.
Not particularly concerned with personal appearance.  Sirius is a large dog,
which may suggest that he is possessed of considerable spirit and character.

James Potter (stag) - the largest Animagi we've yet heard of, this may tell
us that he also possessed the greatest generosity and nobility of spirit.
Quiet, confident, graceful, generally peace-loving, but can be fierce in
defense of loved ones.

I also wonder if the fact that Skeeter and Pettigrew are scavengers and
McGonagall and Black are carnivores, whereas James was a herbivore, tells us
something about their "killer instinct" or lack thereof.  Or am I taking
this too far?
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj





From kdemcak at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 15 20:37:47 2001
From: kdemcak at hotmail.com (kdemcak at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:37:47 -0000
Subject: in defense of sirius black/character comparisons
In-Reply-To: <3AB11728.2CB28A9@erols.com>
Message-ID: <98r96r+l0d0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14408

Do we know what Snape did to try and get the Marauders expelled? 
I'll have to go back to the text to make sure, but I don't think we 
do.  While the prank  certainly doesn't speak well of Sirius and was 
dangerous and foolish, I wonder what Snape did to drive him over the 
edge?  Don't you think it had to be something pretty bad?  Certainly 
whatever it was didn't mean Snape deserved being put in mortal peril, 
but put into context, maybe Sirius' actions would make a little more 
sense.

James' reaction, on the other hand, *does* speak well for him. The 
differences between James and Sirius as teenagers sort of remind me
of 
the differences between Harry and Ron.

I love Ron, so this isn't meant to be an insult to him in any way,
but 
he's much more of a typical teenage boy than Harry; he's more  
impulsive and I'd say he's a bit less mature.

I can't really think of a parallel situation because they haven't put
 
Draco in mortal peril and Harry's certainly not above playing pranks 
on Draco. But it seems to me that Ron is quicker to fight and get 
revenge than Harry. For instance, trying to curse Draco after he 
called Hermione a mudblood. It doesn't mean he's *bad*... it's just 
who he is right now!  I mean, teenagers are *supposed* to be 
impulsive!

James' reaction to the prank shows that he was much more mature than 
Sirius at the time, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Sirius was a 
bad person.



-------




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 20:44:22 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:44:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] in defense of sirius black
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKOECMCBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20010315204422.41460.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14409

> So do I... Sirius is my favorite character, too, and I just cannot
> stay put if someone says he's a violent jerk... You really should 
> read the recent character discussion in the archives of the list.
> If you say that Sirius is violent and ruthless, you should consider
> where he has spent the last twelve years and extrapolate to the
> "real" world. > 

Actually, I said he was a "serious jerk" - which I assumed people
would realize was a pun on his name.  

> And I am pretty sure that Sirius felt *very* bad when he realized
> what 
> consequences his prank could have had. I agree with Penny that we 
> don't know the whole story, we only know Snape's PoV. 

Well, actually Black does make a comment before Snape shows up that
implies Snape would have deserved whatever he got.  And even if Snape
did bring it on himself (debatable but acceptable for the moment),
using Lupin to do the actual deed is not very responsible.

I like Margaret Deans suggestion about James bounding off to save
Snape when he realizes what happened.

This is my last post on this issue because I'm sure people are
getting bored with it.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Mar 15 20:47:54 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:47:54 -0000
Subject: when on Black...
Message-ID: <98r9pq+rccd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14410


 is it true that jk rowling herself called him, what was it, "dead 
sexy", in an interview? I?m writing this summary of him (just for 
fun) and I?d like that as a quote, if anyone could tell me where I 
could find it.

beforehand thanks,

/Jennifer




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 15 20:49:39 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:49:39 -0000
Subject: Worlds collide - Killing - Hangman - Puffskeins - Nationalities
Message-ID: <98r9t3+sn3a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14411

> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> 

Milz wrote:

>The thing about the Rowling Potter books is this: all the events in 
>them have already happened in "Harry time". 

Okay, my mind is now spinning, but what you seem to be saying is that 
Harry is right now, in our time, 2001, 20 years old (21 in July), 
that he does in fact share this world with us and IS 20 years old, 
and that we just haven't caught up with the narrative because JKR is 
a few years behind in her biography.  That makes sense; it's the way 
I read them (if she didn't want to place the books in real time, she 
didn't have to give us Nick's exact death date?yet she did); and it 
also means that Dumbledore and Harry are still alive at the end of 
Book 7 (1998) b/c they were involved with the publication of a 2001 
book.  

I still maintain that the checkout dates wreak havoc on this theory, 
however.  Only twenty or so students have checked out that copy of 
QTA in the past 6 1/2 years (since Wood left Hogwarts)?  OK, here's 
another solution:  Dumbledore's just kidding about Madam Pince (we 
know he does tend to invent stories out of whole cloth).  He didn't 
get it from her; he got it from Harry, who lost it way back in March 
1996, paid his fine and suffered his hex, and then found it again 
when he packed up to return to Privet Drive at the end of the year.  
(Turned out it was in Ron's stuff, under a pile of maroon sweaters, 
which Ron had not disturbed in months, naturally.)

On Rowling in the forewords: I checked too (ye olde bookstore 
technique again), and I notice that though J.K. Rowling does get a 
mention, she is not identified as the biographer of Harry Potter nor 
the author of these books (as indeed she isn't?Whisp and Scamander 
are).  Dumbledore gives no sign that he actually knows her or 
considers her significant.  So if JKR is heading towards that 
collision of worlds, she hasn't done it yet.  Harry has indeed been 
written about in his own world, but only in tomes of recent wizarding 
history, as far as we know.  JK's way is much more interesting!  She 
should be hired to teach Modern History of Magic, since Binns appears 
to be stuck in medieval goblin rebellions permanently.  (How do you 
get rid of a boring teacher if he's a ghost?  Can you declare a 
mandatory retirement age of 300 years post-birth or 100 years post-
death, whichever comes first?)

>Actually, it would be funny if we find out in book 7 that "J. K. 
>Rowling" is the pen name for one of Harry's classmates!

Ooh
Any guesses as to who? 

Heidi wrote:

>I will look through GoF tonight, but if my memory is correct on 
this, 
>Sirius is the one who said it...

In "Padfoot Returns," IIRC.  "Moody never killed unless he had to."  
Implying both that he did kill people and that some other Aurors were 
a shade too enthusiastic about their new power.

Ajpresto wrote:

>I'm sure this has been discussed, but the answer to the hangman game 
in the
>front of FBWTFT is "Acromantula." Now you know.

And Ron is very bad at hangman; check out the letters he guesses.  He 
should stick to chess.

Puffskeins must be the creatures humming in the pet shop in PoA?the 
ones that made some of us say "ooh, Tribbles!" when we got to them.  
(McCoy:  "I like them.  They're nice, they're furry, and they make a 
pleasant sound."  Spock:  "So would an ermine violin, Doctor, but 
that doesn't mean I want to own one.") 

I ached to own a Tribble when I was 10
now I'm over 30 and I want a 
Puffskein. (I don't care if they reproduce like rabbits on Viagra!  I 
don't care if they drink from the toilet!  I want them!)  The 
inaugural meeting of the Women Who Love Fictional Pets support group 
will now come to order.

Rebecca, your spoiler spaces are hilarious, but someone who hasn't 
seen Citizen Kane (I believe there are 4 or 5 left in the English-
speaking world) is going to kill you.

Amy Z

P.S.  I think Dean Thomas is Welsh.  I have absolutely no evidence, 
just a wish.  Anyone want to weigh in?  Football fans, would it be 
insane for him to be a West Ham fan then?




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar 15 20:54:57 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:54:57 -0000
Subject: when on Black...
In-Reply-To: <98r9pq+rccd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98ra71+5fc0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14412

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> 
>  is it true that jk rowling herself called him, what was it, "dead 
> sexy", in an interview? I?m writing this summary of him (just for 
> fun) and I?d like that as a quote, if anyone could tell me where I 
> could find it.

Here's the answer:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/255
The most pertinent part:

From: "Alix Petty" 
Date: Sun Aug 27, 2000 9:26am
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] JKR experience

OK, well I met her at the launch of GoF at King's Cross in July. 
<SNIP>
she came down to the barriers to answer questions from the press and 
sign a few books - she
signed my cover, and then as she was signing my mate's book, I 
thought it was now or never and just said 'Sirius Black is meant to 
be dead sexy, isn't he?'.  It was so funny - she looked at me as if 
she was pleasantly surprised to see friendly faces in amongst all the 
press hounds - she obviously was expecting questions about the money, 
the next books, yadda yadda yadda, not a fan question - then she 
smiled and said 'Yes.'




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Mar 15 20:58:35 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:58:35 -0000
Subject: when on Black...
In-Reply-To: <98ra71+5fc0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98radr+tcn4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14413

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > 
> >  is it true that jk rowling herself called him, what was 
it, "dead 
> > sexy", in an interview? I?m writing this summary of him (just for 
> > fun) and I?d like that as a quote, if anyone could tell me where 
I 
> > could find it.
> 
> Here's the answer:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/255
> The most pertinent part:
> 
> From: "Alix Petty" 
> Date: Sun Aug 27, 2000 9:26am
> Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] JKR experience
> 
> OK, well I met her at the launch of GoF at King's Cross in July. 
> <SNIP>
> she came down to the barriers to answer questions from the press 
and 
> sign a few books - she
> signed my cover, and then as she was signing my mate's book, I 
> thought it was now or never and just said 'Sirius Black is meant to 
> be dead sexy, isn't he?'.  It was so funny - she looked at me as if 
> she was pleasantly surprised to see friendly faces in amongst all 
the 
> press hounds - she obviously was expecting questions about the 
money, 
> the next books, yadda yadda yadda, not a fan question - then she 
> smiled and said 'Yes.'

This is Such a darling group! I had to stick here for some minutes 
only, before the answer was given me. Alix Petty, thanks a lot :)
/Jennifer




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Mar 15 21:29:23 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:29:23 -0000
Subject: Copyright Law (was Re: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued)
In-Reply-To: <98qpv1+7fpu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98rc7j+pscq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14414

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> heidi's copyright law lesson of the day:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., bassettlover at a... wrote:
> > First of all, doesn't evry single book published in the US have 
to 
> > have a copy in the Library of Congress?  
> 
> Yes, as a matter of law. Deposit in the collections of the Library 
of 
> Congress of published works is mandatory under section 407;  [snip] 

> to ensure a more 
> rapid deposit of a work the Library needs promptly, the Register of 
> Copyrights may make a written demand for the required deposit at 
any 
> time after publication.
> 
> If the required deposit is not made within 3 months of the demand, 
> the person or organization obligated to make the deposit is liable 
> for a fine of not more than $250 for each work plus the retail 
price 
> of the copies; if the refusal to comply is willful or repeated, an 
> added fine of $2,500 may be incurred.


Thanks very much for clarifying that, Heidi.  I just want to point 
out that, as a frequent user of the Library of Congress, the fact is 
that some publishers do not send copies of their publications to the 
LOC, even though it is required by law.  Librarians do not have 
magical powers (except of course for Madam Pince), so if the 
publishers do not send their books it is difficult for the LOC to 
even know a work has been published, and even if they do know their 
ability to enforce the law seems to be limited -- like most 
government agencies they suffer from budget limitations, 
incompetence, inefficiency, etc.  I once asked for an issue of the 
periodical only to find out that the publisher, which was Columbia 
University Press (who should know better) had not sent the Library 
any copies of that periodical for over 9 years and no one at the 
Library had noticed.

Which brings us back to the main point (quickly before the Moderators 
send me one of those off-topic howlers) that if anyone wants to have 
a copy of Stouffers books in the next few months to subject it to 
public scorn they will probably have to buy it.  While it is possible 
that some libraries will order it, the lag time between the time a 
library orders a book, receives the book, places it in circulation, 
etc., is usually pretty long, although a small library can usually do 
these things quicker than the LOC, which takes about a year for this 
process.

I will just have to go to the bookstore and take notes.  The only 
thing I dont like about these big new B&N/Borders/etc. bookstores 
with the comfy chairs and coffee bars (aside from the fact that they 
run small bookstores out of business) is that they dont have copy 
machines.

--Joywitch




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 21:30:27 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:30:27 -0000
Subject: killing voldemort/ dumbledore cold &  calculating?
In-Reply-To: <3AB04F2E.D8050DEE@texas.net>
Message-ID: <98rc9j+3mi6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14415

Scott wrote (and somehow it came out in wonky sentences I can't seem 
to fix):

                 > --As a society we have accepted the idea of 
"fighting fire with fire".
                 > Therefore it's no suprise that the theme of 
"fighting evilwith evil"
                 > or "giving someone a dose of their own medicene" is 
a common as the
                 > situtations in which it arises. But I agree with 
Amy (?) that it is a
                 > dangerous message to send in the HP books. I think 
it would be counter
                 > productive to the whole message of the series.

Amanda said:
                 A good point. But so far as I can tell, the whole 
message of the series
                 has to do with choices. Harry's choices so far have 
mostly been
                 no-brainers, from the perspective of the reader--by 
that I mean, you
                 *know* what he should do, and what he'll probably do, 
if you know what I
                 mean. They're getting more complex, though--choices 
which could go
                 either way, which are not "preselected" by the 
reader, like his choosing
                 to prevent Sirius and Lupin from killing Pettigrew. I 
imagine they'll
                 get more complex still.

I hope you're right that they'll get more complex - that's a part of 
growing up, and I think it's important that people realize this.  For 
instance, *not* choosing, is a choice in and of itself.  I wish 
someone had taught me that as a child.  I just think that the choice - 
no matter how complex, has to be based on the accumulated experience 
and wisdom of the individual, and (in the case of the decisions of a 
fictional character) in keeping with the moral/ethcial framework set 
up by the author.  I admit I may be projecting my own framework onto 
the books unknowingly, but from my perspective, the choice to kill 
would not ring true.

                 A complex choice is complex precisely because the 
answer is not easy.
                 That sounds simple, but it means that there's a 
measure of bad and good
                 in *any* decision, which must be weighed. When you 
get to really morally
                 complex choices, you start getting to "intent 
counts." And I think one
                 can morally make a choice that involves commission of 
some degree of
                 bad, if the intent and pursuit and purpose is good. 
But not easily, and
                 not unscathed, and not unchanged--which is part of 
the choice, that
                 understanding that you alter yourself, not 
necessarily to the good. [I'm
                 reminded of that "using an evil creature (basilisk) 
for a good end"
                 discussion some months back, where as I recall, I 
said you can*not* use
                 an evil tool to a good end, at least without becoming 
evil in measure
                 yourself.]

I agree with you here.  It's why the idea of Harry killing V gives me 
such trouble.  I don't think he can do it without, in some measure, 
becoming like Voldemort.  It's a decision to kill another person, and 
if it's a considered decision rather than a reflex out of fear or rage 
or desperation or something, then I think it's even more serious.  And 
once you've made such a decision and carried it out...  there's now a 
part of you that not only has killed, but has chosen to do so.  If you 
can do that once, and the results are good and the repercussions are 
small, then what happens the next time someone threatens your family, 
or hurts someone you love, or... gets in your way?  It's such a 
slippery slope once you consider killing a viable option for any 
reason.

                 <snip>

Scott:
                 > The way I see it if Harry uses AK to kill Voldemort 
then he is
                 > stooping to Voldemort's level and is therefore no 
better than the evil
                 > he is destroying.

Amanda:
                 Yes and no. It depends on the situation. Seeking 
someone out, after
                 mapping their moves and planning your strategy, is 
assassination any way
                 you slice it, for any purpose. I would hate to see 
Harry brought to
                 that, for that would indeed be on Voldemort's level. 
But using it in a
                 combat situation, or as a reflex to prevent the 
deaths of others, then
                 any curse he knows is a weapon to hand. In my mind, 
the latter situation
                 does not bring Harry to Voldemort's level.

But the fact is, if he were to use AK, then it *would* be planned.  It 
would be assassination, because there's no other reason Harry *would* 
know AK.  He would have chosen to learn it for the purpose of killing.  
It's the only thing AK is good for.  And what an anticlimax after all 
of the ingenious ways that JKR has written for Harry to survive and/or 
prevail up to this point, such as destroying the diary in CoS.

<snip>

Scott:
                 > I don't think I could (or would) end the life of 
another human no
                 > matter what the circumstances.
                 > If I did my guilt would most likely be worse than 
any
                 > physical reprecussions, and the same goes for 
Harry.  If the "larger
                 > goal" is to end evil, or a paticular evil, then how 
is using evil
                 > (killing) ever going to stop it, or even slow it 
down?


Scott, I agree with you completely here.  There is no 'once and for 
all' (at least in this world) in the destruction of evil, and evil 
does not exist in any one body.  Killing someone who does evil does 
not destroy the evil, and 'using' evil makes it more commonplac and 
less of an outrage to those who are against it.  I don't want to be 
desensitized.

Amanda:
                 Well, answer that one and I'll put your name in for a 
Nobel in
                 philosophy. Or human relations. I guess the answer 
lies in the voice
                 within, that says whether a particular choice is 
worth it. Most people
                 understand that evil will probably not ever be 
completely stopped,
                 except Here and For A While, and if you can do that, 
well, it's helped a
                 bit. So I guess the extent to which you are willing 
to go depends on
                 your own Here and For A While. For example, honestly 
put yourself in the
                 position of someone living during the Blitz, with 
friends and family who
                 had died, understanding that if your country fell, 
that horrible things
                 would most likely happen to the entire rest of the 
world (for such was
                 likely)--can you still say with such certainty that 
you would not make
                 some effort toward the fight? Harry's Here and For A 
While will likely
                 be such high stakes.

But there's an enormous difference between being unwilling to kill and 
not making some effort toward the fight!  Not killing is by no means 
the same thing as doing nothing.  In your example there were those who 
took care of the sick and injured, there were those who helped people 
to hide and who carried messages.  Some people destroyed bridges to 
keep supplies from getting across... all of those people were making 
some effort toward the fight.  I'd rather do any of those things, or 
even die in a futile attempt  to make peace, than kill someone.  To me 
this is one of the things that can fall under the 'easy' catagory.  
When Dumbledore talked about choosing between what is right and what 
is easy,  I think he was referring to the kind of decision that 
Pettigrew made, but I think it also applies to this - using evil means 
to achieve good ends.  It's often a lot easier to say that person X is 
evil and irredeemable and execute them than it is to try to find 
another way to deal with the problem.  I think the effort to affect a 
positive change in a positive way makes a difference, even if it's not 
immediately clear.  

                 > Also here's an alternative thought. What if someone 
shows Voldemort
                 > love. Dumbly says that Voldemort cannot understand 
love. (Is that b/c
                 > he's never experienced it or b/c he has forgotten 
it in his road to
                 > Evil Overlordship?) If Harry were to forgive 
Voldemort despite his
                 > past actions what effect would it have?

                 Oooh. Interesting thought. I'm not sure Voldemort is 
human enough
                 anymore for this to make any difference, although his 
human part is
                 Harry's blood (pure) and Wormtail's hand (beholden to 
Harry). But still,
                 anything that is nurtured on venom is probably past 
it. You can care
                 tenderly for a snake, and it will still try to strike 
you. It may be
                 part of Harry's choice that he must recognize that 
Voldemort's own
                 choices have moved him beyond the pale of humanity. 
Ugh.

I'd hate to think that anyone is completely beyond the effects of 
love.  It may not cause a complete turnaround, but surely love mercy 
and forgiveness have *some* impact.  As long as there is, I'm happy to 
play Sisyphus indefinitely.

The thing is, I think Harry has seen Voldemort as nothing more than 
the Evil one who killed his parents and is after him since book 1.  I 
don't think it would be much of a stretch for him to recognize that 
Voldemort is 'beyond the pale' (cool terminology), as I don't know 
that he's ever seen him in any other way.  I think it would be far 
more difficult for him to come to the realization that Voldemort *is*, 
in some sense, human, with all that that entails.  I guess that's 
another reason that I struggle with the idea of Harry killing him.  To 
me, in the current culture of action movies and cop shows, *that's* 
the easy way out. 






From laura-russell at juno.com  Thu Mar 15 21:31:19 2001
From: laura-russell at juno.com (Laura O Russell)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:31:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hippogriff or Griffin?
Message-ID: <20010315.163240.-3843719.4.Laura-Russell@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14416

Hi!  I have been lurking on this list for a while, and I have a question
that you may be able to answer.  What is the difference between a
Hippogriff and a Griffin?  This has been puzzling me for a while.  I'd
appreciate any answers!
Thanks!

Laura 

When I am an Evil Overlord. . .
#2 
My ventilation ducts will be too small to crawl through.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



From indigo at indigosky.net  Thu Mar 15 22:09:14 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:09:14 -0000
Subject: Hippogriff or Griffin?
In-Reply-To: <20010315.163240.-3843719.4.Laura-Russell@juno.com>
Message-ID: <98reia+ad9m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14417

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Laura O Russell <laura-russell at j...> wrote:
> Hi!  I have been lurking on this list for a while, and I have a 
> question that you may be able to answer.  What is the difference 
> between a Hippogriff and a Griffin?  This has been puzzling me for 
> a while.  I'd appreciate any answers!
> Thanks!


A Griffin:

Mythological animal that has the head, wings, and claws of an eagle, 
but the hindquarters of a lion.

A hippogriff: 

Mythological animal that has the head and wings of an eagle (but not 
the claws) and the body of a horse.

>From which I gather the "Griff" part is the eagle part of the animal 
and the "hippo" part of the animal is the horse because:

Hippocampus:

Horse head and forelegs,  sea-serpent tail.

Hope that helps.

Indigo




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 15 22:20:10 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:20:10 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hippogriff or Griffin?
In-Reply-To: <20010315.163240.-3843719.4.Laura-Russell@juno.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010315141823.00df3c30@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14418

At 04:31 PM 3/15/01 -0500, Laura O Russell wrote:
>Hi!  I have been lurking on this list for a while, and I have a question
>that you may be able to answer.  What is the difference between a
>Hippogriff and a Griffin?  This has been puzzling me for a while.  I'd
>appreciate any answers!
>Thanks!

A Hippogriff has the back half of a horse; a Griffin (or Gryphon)
has the back half of a lion (and sometimes have pointed ears).



                                                 -- Dave




From ender_w at msn.com  Thu Mar 15 22:19:31 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:19:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Superficial FBWTFT/QTA questions...
References: <98qq24+9uaa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002001c0ad9e$03564f80$d00a1b3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 14419


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: kdemcak at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 11:19 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Superficial FBWTFT/QTA questions...


  >   S
  >   P
  >   O
  >   I
  >   L
  >   E
  >   R
  >   S
  > 
  >   A
  >   B
  >   O
  >   U
  >   N
  >   D
  > 
  >   B
  >   E
  >   L
  >   O
  >   W
  > 
  > 
  >   >>I, too, wish that we had a handwriting analyst amongst us.  :-)  
  >   >>Hermione's handwriting on the bookplate page of FB in particular 
  >   >>interests me... I know we've seen her sig in canon, but it's not 
  what 
  >   >>I thought it would look like at all.  Harry and Ron's writing 
  seems 
  >   >>to look like "them" more to me... I don't know why
  > 
  >   Maybe I'm dense or something, but the names written in the front 
  of QTA all look like they've been written in the same handwriting.  

  >>No, you're not dense, all of the names written in QTA are in the same 
  >>handwriting, presumably Madame Pince's.  But the post above was 
  referring to the front page of FB&WTFT, where you can see >>Harry's, 
  Ron's, and Hermione's handwriting -- which are definitely 
  >>distinguishable.

  Ooops! I am dense.  I need to pay more attention to the details, I guess.  Sorry.

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 15 22:18:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:18:02 -0000
Subject: Dee's questions re: PS/SS
Message-ID: <98rf2q+9uu3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14420

Okay, I wrote this on OT but Penny wisely pointed out that we should 
move the whole thread to this list (on-topic messages being against 
the rules on the OT list <G>).

Denise wrote, in message 895 on the OT list:

> I still want to know how the Dursleys got off the rock.
> 
> Grins.

Who cares?  I hope they had to swim.  <Grins too.>


> I also still am trying to picture how Hagrid "flew" to the rock.

You got me there.  Maybe he took a broomstick but sent it back solo 
to Dumbledore since he wasn't going to fly Harry back.  A Banishing 
charm should do it.

> How did Hagrid know that was the day to take out the stone?  Any 
later, and
> it would have been bye-bye stone, hello Voldie.

It's the other way around.  Dumbledore decided Hogwarts would be 
safer than Gringotts, and said, "Hagrid, you gotta go pick up Harry 
since those *&#$% Dursleys obviously aren't letting him get his mail, 
so run by Gringotts, will you, and pick me up a quart of milk while 
you're at it too."  So the question is, how did Quirrell/Voldy know 
that he'd better act now?  Because Hagrid has a big mouth and 
everyone at Hogwarts knew he was going to fetch Harry that day.  I 
wouldn't be surprised if he dropped a few hints that he was going to 
Gringotts to pick up a little package too.

Amy Z


 





From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 15 22:12:04 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:12:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] in defense of sirius black
References: <20010315204422.41460.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02d101c0ad9c$fdcabe80$6145d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14421


----- Original Message -----
From: "Magda Grantwich" <mgrantwich at yahoo.com>


> Actually, I said he was a "serious jerk" - which I assumed people
> would realize was a pun on his name.
>

LOL! But if you really wanted to catch our attention you would have said he
was a sirius jerk!  <GRIN>

> This is my last post on this issue because I'm sure people are
> getting bored with it.

Are you kidding?  I never get bored of discussing Sirius!  ; - )

And I hope you don't feel like we were attacking you or anything...just
trying to help you see the caring sexy guy we think he is.  (for a better
idea of who I think Sirius is try the fanfic: A Sirius Affair I'm writing
with Penny)

carole





From luvmykatz at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 22:25:48 2001
From: luvmykatz at yahoo.com (Rita Fetter)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:25:48 -0000
Subject: Hippogriff or Griffin?
In-Reply-To: <20010315.163240.-3843719.4.Laura-Russell@juno.com>
Message-ID: <98rfhc+5eva@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14422

According to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them by Newt 
Scamander:

Griffin (M.O.M. classification XXXX)
The Griffin originated in Greece and has the front legs and head of a 
giant eagle, but the body and hind legs of a lion...Griffins feed on 
raw meat.

Hippogriff (M.O.M. classification XXX)
The Hippogriff is native to Europe, though now found worldwide. It
has the head of a giant eagle and the body of a horse...The
Hippogriff 
burrows for insects but will also eat birds and small mammals.

--Rita



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Laura O Russell <laura-russell at j...> wrote:
> Hi!  I have been lurking on this list for a while, and I have a 
question
> that you may be able to answer.  What is the difference between a
> Hippogriff and a Griffin?  This has been puzzling me for a while.  
I'd
> appreciate any answers!
> Thanks!
> 
> Laura 





From mlleelizabeth at aol.com  Thu Mar 15 22:38:24 2001
From: mlleelizabeth at aol.com (mlleelizabeth at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:38:24 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
Message-ID: <22.13455450.27e29e60@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14423

Is there a copy of the Stoufer book on file with the Court in which she filed 
her lawsuit?  Perhaps someone could obtain a copy, or at least have the 
opportunity to look the thing over, that way.

Love & Light,
*Elizabeth*
~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eccleston at clara.co.uk  Thu Mar 15 22:46:29 2001
From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:46:29 -0000
Subject: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
In-Reply-To: <22.13455450.27e29e60@aol.com>
Message-ID: <98rgo5+sdf3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14424

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> Is there a copy of the Stoufer book on file with the Court in which 
she filed 
> her lawsuit?  Perhaps someone could obtain a copy, or at least have 
the 
> opportunity to look the thing over, that way.
> 

You can examine the literary merits of Stoufer at www.realmuggles.com

I wasn't impressed.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 22:56:30 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:56:30 -0500
Subject: Fw: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Wild Theories listening to SS on tape.
Message-ID: <018701c0ada3$2d2444c0$10ccfea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14425


----- Original Message -----
From: "Denise R" <gypsycaine at yahoo.com>
To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 4:03 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Wild Theories listening to SS on tape.


> Yeah I know, you're beginning to hate me?
>
> I still want to know how the Dursleys got off the rock.
>
> Grins.
>
> The names of the books is what drew my attention enough to make it into a
> post.  Miranda?  Quentin? I am rather surprised that Barnabas isn't in
> there?  (Or perhaps it's Snape's ancestor?  grins at that!)
>
> Ducks the flying fruit from the Snape-lovers.
>
> J/K on the aside!
>
> I also still am trying to picture how Hagrid "flew" to the rock.
>
> How did Hagrid know that was the day to take out the stone?  Any later,
and
> it would have been bye-bye stone, hello Voldie.
>
> And McG and AD couldn't be married.  AD's martial status would have
> naturally been discovered by our Miss Granger by now--she researched
Flamel
> pretty well, once they figured him out.  And it did state he was married,
> but not AD.  That doesn't rule out lovers, though. (Winks)  How many times
> has she read Hogwarts... now?  GRINS!
>
>
> That's enough to start a few threads of thought at least...
>
> Oh, and my last thought, after hearing Hagrid's discussion of Lily and
> James, and Harry's ability as a wizard in the hut.  He made a comment
about
> not knowing why Voldie never tried to get them on his side, but assumed it
> was because of their devotion to AD.  What if that auror/etc job we keep
> plopping on them isn't it?  What if they're...
>
> drum rolls....
>
>
>
>
>
> of the Order of the Phoenix?  That's why they're so pro-Dumbledore?  He's
> something like the "grand-pubar" (sp) or whatnot?  He sent them out to do
> things anti-Voldie....
>
>
> Just a parting thought.
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
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From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Thu Mar 15 23:01:54 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:01:54 -0000
Subject: Mrs Norris (was Crookshanks)
In-Reply-To: <012801c0ad14$fe259180$dde01b3f@rena>
Message-ID: <98rhl2+8aoc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14426

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rena" <fmu30c at y...> wrote:

> spell. I too was thinking that Mrs Norris is Filch's wife, but that
> wouldn't explain the same eyes. Maybe she is his sister?
> 
> Rena

I guess she'd be Mrs Filch if she was his wife.  I wondered if squibs 
had some sort of magic associated with cats - like the magic that 
should be theirs is transferred to a cat.  This could explain Mrs 
Figgs cat obsession too (I think she's a squib - probably the one 
that discovers she can do magic late in life)- only she's still 
looking for her cat-partner.

Another idea's just occurred that requires
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

.
.
.
.
.
.
What if Mrs Norris and Mrs Figgs cats are also part Kneazle.  It could 
explain Mrs Norris's ability to locate shifty students breaking the 
rules.  Mrs Figgs Kneazle-cats could then have a better role in 
protecting Harry at the Dursleys.

Anyone else notice that Newt Scamander himself has 3 pet kneazles? 

Florence




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Thu Mar 15 23:10:40 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:10:40 -0000
Subject: in defense of sirius black
In-Reply-To: <20010315204422.41460.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <98ri5g+o07c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14427

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

> Well, actually Black does make a comment before Snape shows up that
> implies Snape would have deserved whatever he got.  And even if 
Snape
> did bring it on himself (debatable but acceptable for the moment),
> using Lupin to do the actual deed is not very responsible.

As first stated, we don't know enough background to the deed.  
Remember that this happened during Voldemorts reign of terror (I 
always thought Snape and the marauders would be a few years older so 
that they were at school before all that until the recent chat).  
Sirius could have suspected Snape of dark activities - he did after 
all become a DE at some point. - Maybe that still doesn't entirely 
justify it but the context of a war might make it more understandable.

Florence




From bohners at pobox.com  Thu Mar 15 23:20:27 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:20:27 -0500
Subject: Crookshanks
Message-ID: <030001c0ada6$a33af3e0$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14428

Spoiler space...

S
O
Y
L
E
N
T

G
R
E
E
N

I
S

P
E
O
P
L
E

Okay, in FB we have this description of the Kneazle which, based on the
physical description and the information that Kneazles are living
Sneakoscopes and can interbreed with cats, makes us think that Crookshanks
is at least part Kneazle.

My first thought is that it's just too bad that Hermione didn't let
Crookshanks out of the dorm in GoF... if she had, he might have tagged the
false Mad-Eye Moody.  Is it against school rules to bring one's pet to
classes?  If so, why does Neville get to carry Trevor everywhere?

My second thought is, does Hermione know that Crookshanks has Kneazle blood
in him?  Was that part of the reason she bought him in the first place?  I
could see her doing this, but if she knows, why hasn't she made more use of
his Kneazle abilities, or at least talked about them (i.e. when defending
Crookshanks' virtues to Ron in PoA)?

It would almost seem that Hermione *doesn't* know that Crookshanks is part
Kneazle.  But why on earth not?  She must have read FANTASTIC BEASTS as
thoroughly as anything else she's ever read for school, and probably
multiple times.  I'm surprised that she wouldn't pick up on something as
obvious as that -- I mean, we all did.

Finally, I suspect that the little detail that Kneazles can guide their
owners home if they are lost is likely to become important in a future book.
Might there be some incident in which Hermione is removed from the vicinity
of Hogwarts, or even just lost in the Forbidden Forest, and has to find her
way back alone?  I can see her showing up at an unexpected moment, just when
everyone had given up hope of finding her again, thanks to Crookshanks.

And are there any incidents already described in the books (PoA, presumably)
which could be attributed to Crookshanks' powers of location?

Thoughts?
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Thu Mar 15 23:54:16 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:54:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hippogriff or Griffin?
In-Reply-To: <98rfhc+5eva@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103151733130.18629-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14429

Indigo wrote:

<snip descriptions of hippogriff and griffin>

> From which I gather the "Griff" part is the eagle part of the animal 
> and the "hippo" part of the animal is the horse because:
> 
> Hippocampus:
> 
> Horse head and forelegs,  sea-serpent tail.

The 'griff' part really is the griffin, though it basically refers to
the bird part; the 'hippo' part is the horse; and the 'campus' of the
hippocampus is the sea-monster part.  (Griffin is ultimately derived
from the Greek word grups, which means 'griffin'; no derivation for
'grups' is given in the LSJ (the big Greek dictionary).  The Greek word
can also refer to a bird called a L?mmergeier, the largest European bird
of prey, a big vulture with a wingspan of nine to ten feet, which drops
tortoise shells and bones from a great height to break them open and eat
the contents and is thus known as an ossifrage -- so probably not quite
the same as an eagle, but large bird of prey nonetheless.)

--jen, always good for etymologies :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.





From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Thu Mar 15 23:55:40 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:55:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bellerophon and a few other FB thoughts (spoilers)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103151749550.18629-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14430

S
L
I
G
H
T

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

F
O
R

F
B

I just adored the books, really.  They were *too* cute.

What jumped out at me from FB was the bit about the Chimaera, and its
allusion to the story of Bellerophon.  (He's the Greek hero who killed
the Chimaera, in some versions while mounted on Pegasus, the winged
horse, before later plunging to his death, thrown from Pegasus' back.)
It was neat in general how JKR referred obliquely at several points to
the mythological origins of the beasts by calling them "Greek."
Alluding to Bellerophon without naming him, JKR says, "There is only
one known instance of the successful slaying of a Chimaera and the
unlucky wizard concerned fell to his death from his winged horse
... shortly afterwards, exhausted by his efforts" (FB p.7, American
ed.).

I love the blending of Greek and HP mythology there (turning Bellerophon
into a wizard).  I also thought it was interesting that B's death
becomes an accident of sorts, rather than the result of hubris it is in
the myths.  (In the story of the fall from Pegasus, B generally is
trying to fly up to Olympus to join the gods, obviously not to be
allowed to a mortal.)  I'm surprised though that she didn't actually
refer to the story of the person who bred the Chimaera.

Another couple things I thought were fun: The name of the wizard who
bred the Basilisk, Herpo the Foul, whose name (like Latin 'serpens')
has the root herp- meaning 'snake, creeping thing'; the drawing of the
gnome, with its smirk; the 'tadfoal' of the hippocampus; the Loch Ness
monster as a kelpie (makes as much sense as the pleiosaur theory,
doesn't it?); the Sphinx as a treasure guardian.

And I felt soooo bad for Ron that Fred killed his Puffskein -- that
seems terribly callous, even for the twins.

One omission I thought was kind of surprising was the mandrake.  Don't
they count as beasts?  Or are they really just plants?

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.





From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Thu Mar 15 23:56:28 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:56:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Wizard government (spoilers)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103151824570.12917-100000@er2.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14431

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

Q
T
A

&

F
B

A couple thoughts on wizard government that the two schoolbooks prompted
-- I was a little puzzled by the ref. in QTA to "every" MoM ("Adequate
security measures were not enforced until the International Statue of
Wizarding Secrecy of 1692 made every Ministry of Magic directly
responsible for the consequences of magical sports played within their
territories," [QTA p.16, Am. ed.]).  It seems like 'Ministry of Magic'
is being used here as a generic term, more or less equivalent to 'wizard
government'?  I can't see there being in the States, for example, a MoM,
though there could easily be a Department of Magic.  Perhaps it's just
one of those language differences.

And as for the extent of the MoM (the one we're familiar with) -- is it
not responsible for all of Britain?  IN FB, we learn that Scotland, as a
nation, is fined individually for the continued Loch Ness monster
sightings (p. xvii, Am. ed.), so there must be some sort of governing
body peculiar to Scotland to represent it to the International
Confederation of Wizards -- would this be a subgroup of the MoM, or
something else entirely?  (I have very little knowledge of the structure
of British gov't, so I've not got much to draw on for parallels).  It
seems like it would be something else entirely, solely responsible for
Scottish wizard affairs?

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.





From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar 16 00:22:22 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 00:22:22 -0000
Subject: Fw: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Wild Theories listening to SS on tape.
In-Reply-To: <018701c0ada3$2d2444c0$10ccfea9@computer>
Message-ID: <98rmbu+fe6u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14432

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...>
> To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at y...>
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 4:03 PM
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Wild Theories listening to SS on tape.
> 
> 
> > Yeah I know, you're beginning to hate me? 
 Nah, are you kidding?  We *live* for posts like this!
> >
> > I still want to know how the Dursleys got off the rock.
> >
> > Grins.

Returns Denise's grin.  Maybe they swam using Dudley as an innertube.
> >
> > The names of the books is what drew my attention enough to make 
it into a
> > post.  Miranda?  Quentin? I am rather surprised that Barnabas 
isn't in
> > there?  (Or perhaps it's Snape's ancestor?  grins at that!)
> >
> > Ducks the flying fruit from the Snape-lovers.

No flying fruit (or anything else).  A fellow Dark Shadows fan, I see.
> >
> > J/K on the aside!
> >
> > I also still am trying to picture how Hagrid "flew" to the rock.
A broomstick?  Sirius' flying motorcycle?  A flying boat?
> >
> > How did Hagrid know that was the day to take out the stone?  Any 
later,
> and
> > it would have been bye-bye stone, hello Voldie.

I think Dumbledore had an inkling that someone was going to try to 
take the stone.  Or maybe Nicholas Flamel told him to get it on that 
particular day. 
> >
> > And McG and AD couldn't be married.  AD's martial status would 
have
> > naturally been discovered by our Miss Granger by now--she 
researched
> Flamel
> > pretty well, once they figured him out.  And it did state he was 
married,
> > but not AD.  That doesn't rule out lovers, though. (Winks)  How 
many times
> > has she read Hogwarts... now?  GRINS!

I agree here.  I like the lovers part. 
> >
> >
> > That's enough to start a few threads of thought at least...
> >
> > Oh, and my last thought, after hearing Hagrid's discussion of 
Lily and
> > James, and Harry's ability as a wizard in the hut.  He made a 
comment
> about
> > not knowing why Voldie never tried to get them on his side, but 
assumed it
> > was because of their devotion to AD.  What if that auror/etc job 
we keep
> > plopping on them isn't it?  What if they're...
> >
> > drum rolls....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > of the Order of the Phoenix?  That's why they're so pro-
Dumbledore?  He's
> > something like the "grand-pubar" (sp) or whatnot?  He sent them 
out to do
> > things anti-Voldie....

Have you been reading Blaise's fanfiction?  She has several stories 
where James, Lily, Remus, and Sirius are all working for Dumbledore, 
doing anti-Mouldy Voldy things.  And Dumbledore is the 'grand-poobah'
> >
> >
> > Just a parting thought.
> >
> >
> >Peace & Plenty,

Parker
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at y...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 01:01:33 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:01:33 -0000
Subject: point by point analysis of the Stouffer articles
In-Reply-To: <98qi15+5rfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98rold+ppap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14433

Heidi:"A Pennsylvania resident, Ms Stouffer filed her lawsuit last 
March in the District Court in Philadelphia. The suit names JK Rowling 
and Scholastic Inc, the US publisher of the Harry Potter books.>>
The Pennsylvania case was dismissed last year on various legal 
grounds. There is, at present, no suit in Pennyslvania between 
Stouffer and anyone relating to the Rowlling books, unless it's been 
reinstituted without coming to my attention (possible, not probable, 
since Stouffer would likely get all publicity-happy about it). "

I suspect that moving the case to the Southern District was a blow to 
Ms. Stouffer, because I would be inclined to think that that 
court, located in NYC as it is, would be very sophisticated about 
copyright and intellectual property issues.  Ms. Stouffer doesn't want 
anybody who knows copyright law looking at this turkey.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 16 01:07:39 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:07:39 -0000
Subject: MWPP/S dates and Reign of Terror
In-Reply-To: <98ri5g+o07c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98rp0r+kuad@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14434

Florence:

 > As first stated, we don't know enough background to the deed.  
> Remember that this happened during Voldemorts reign of terror (I 
> always thought Snape and the marauders would be a few years older 
so 
> that they were at school before all that until the recent chat).  
> Sirius could have suspected Snape of dark activities - he did after 
> all become a DE at some point. - Maybe that still doesn't entirely 
> justify it but the context of a war might make it more 
understandable.

The following assumes that when JKR said in the recent chat that 
Snape was 35 or 6, she meant "now" (i.e., in GoF).  It also assumes 
that MWPP were all exactly the same year, which is not confirmed.  
All dates approximate within a year or so.

1960 MWPP & Snape born

1970 Voldemort's 11 years in power (PS) begin

1971 MWPP & Snape enter Hogwarts

1978 MWPP/S graduate

1981 Voldemort's 11 years in power end

In other words, Snape, Sirius, et al are of the generation whose 
Hogwarts education took place entirely during the reign of terror.  
That has to be significant to who they are and what they did in 
school and afterwards, even though we've only seen glimpses of it so 
far.

Amy Z




From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri Mar 16 01:30:26 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:30:26 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <030001c0ada6$a33af3e0$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <98rqbi+u772@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14435

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:
> Spoiler space...
> 
> S
> O
> Y
> L
> E
> N
> T
> 
> G
> R
> E
> E
> N
> 
> I
> S
> 
> P
> E
> O
> P
> L
> E
> 
> Okay, in FB we have this description of the Kneazle which, based on 
> the physical description and the information that Kneazles are 
> living Sneakoscopes and can interbreed with cats, makes us think 
> that Crookshanks is at least part Kneazle.

Agreed, now that I read FB.  :)  What fun!
 
> My first thought is that it's just too bad that Hermione didn't let
> Crookshanks out of the dorm in GoF... if she had, he might have 
> tagged the false Mad-Eye Moody.  Is it against school rules to 
> bring one's pet to  classes?  If so, why does Neville get to carry 
> Trevor everywhere?

Probably because:

1) Toads are useful in the actual conjuring. Warts or secretions.
2) Neville's terrified he'll lose Trevor if he doesn't carry him 
around. 

> 
> My second thought is, does Hermione know that Crookshanks has 
> Kneazle blood in him?  Was that part of the reason she bought him 
> in the first place?  I could see her doing this, but if she knows, 
> why hasn't she made more use of his Kneazle abilities, or at least 
> talked about them (i.e. when defending Crookshanks' virtues to Ron 
in PoA)?

Perhaps pride, or fear the boys wouldn't believe her.  And she could 
point to the passage in the book but she might be scoffed off as just 
wishing.  Harry and Ron's opinions of her matter to her a lot.

Then there's also how seriously beleaguered she was with her classes 
the year she got Crookshanks.  She was at the end of her wits and her 
rope with studying.  So it's possible she didn't consider Crookshanks 
ancestry a matter of importance.  Darn forest, blocking her view of 
the trees?
> 
> It would almost seem that Hermione *doesn't* know that Crookshanks 
> is part Kneazle.  But why on earth not?  She must have read
> FANTASTIC BEASTS as thoroughly as anything else she's ever read for 
> school, and probably multiple times.  I'm surprised that she 
> wouldn't pick up on something as obvious as that -- I mean, we all
> did.

That's the beauty of being the reader. Privy to information the 
characters don't get. 


> 
> Finally, I suspect that the little detail that Kneazles can guide 
> their owners home if they are lost is likely to become important in 
> a future book.

> Might there be some incident in which Hermione is removed from the
> vicinity of Hogwarts, or even just lost in the Forbidden Forest, 
> and  has to find her way back alone?  I can see her showing up at 
> an unexpected moment, just when everyone had given up hope of 
> finding her again, thanks to Crookshanks.
> 
> And are there any incidents already described in the books (PoA, 
> presumably) which could be attributed to Crookshanks' powers of 
> location?

The only thing that really springs to mind is that Crookshanks 
apparently is somewhat familiar with the grounds of Hogwarts and the 
Whomping Willow -- he knew where the knot to stop the tree is. 

And didn't it mention in the book the pet shop owner had had a hard 
time selling him? 

Maybe Crookshanks was waiting for a wizard he liked...

hmmm....

> 
> Thoughts?
> --
> Rebecca J. Bohner
> rebeccaj at p...
> http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 01:45:16 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:45:16 -0000
Subject: Nancy Stouffer's publisher
Message-ID: <98rr7c+q5oi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14436

Articles about Nancy Stouffer's reissue if "Rah and Muggles" call her 
publisher "Thurman House" from Owings Mills, Md. (suburb of 
Baltimore). No internet search turns up a hit on "Thurman House," but 
a reverse phone number search shows the number belongs to a "Book 
Producer" called Ottenheimer Publishers, Inc., with the same phone 
number and address as given for Thurman.

According to the American Book Producers Association website, a book 
producer puts together "complicated books" and can present them to 
publishers or be publishers themselves. go 
to  http://www.abpaonline.org/what.html to see their description of 
what book producers do. Ottenheimer's listing is on that site also.

"Thurman House," or Ottenheimer, or whoever, can produce books for 
"nontraditional" markets like mail order or door-to-door.  They don't 
call themselves a vanity press, or "subsidy publisher" (the  
industry euphemism) but they aren't a traditional house either.

So who knows? I'd be surprised to see this thing on the feature table 
at Border's, but maybe you have a Rite-Aid near you. That's one of the 
places that carried the book before. Too bad Rite-Aid nearly went 
bankrupt and had to close a lot of  their stores. Something about bad 
buying decisions.




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Fri Mar 16 02:00:39 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:00:39 -0000
Subject: Animagi & Personality
In-Reply-To: <028101c0ad8e$bba6b580$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <98rs47+rhqm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14437

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:
> It's been noted that JKR's comments about animagi appear to 
indicate that a
> wizard doesn't pick the animal they become -- they become an animal 
which is
> in some way expressive of their personality.  That being the case, 
what do
> the forms of the various animagi we know tell us about them?
> 
> snip

> I also wonder if the fact that Skeeter and Pettigrew are scavengers 
and
> McGonagall and Black are carnivores, whereas James was a herbivore, 
tells us
> something about their "killer instinct" or lack thereof.  Or am I 
taking
> this too far?
> --
> Rebecca J. Bohner
> rebeccaj at p...


Hmmm.  Interesting way to look at this.  Peter doesn't seem to have a 
killer instinct.  He'd much rather wait around for someone else to 
get the job done and then sneak in to get his scraps. And  I can 
easily see Sirius doing damage to anyone who harms or threatens to 
harm someone he cares about. 

I have a little trouble with McGonagall's potential killer instinct.  
She wasn't at all happy in GoF when Moody turned Draco into 
the "amazing bouncing ferret."  A cat would see that as perfectly 
normal behavior - you occasionally play with your prey, whether it's 
a toy or a live mouse, before you do it in. I suppose in her position 
at Hogwarts, McGonagall can't seem to approve of this sort of 
behavior, but, you never know - maybe she had a right good giggle 
about it once she got back to her room...

Marianne




From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri Mar 16 02:18:39 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (indigo at indigosky.net)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:18:39 -0000
Subject: HP Casting Call [newbie question]
Message-ID: <98rt5v+nmf2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14438

Only on the list two days, please forgive if this is a question 
that's been already asked...or if this is a topic for another HP list.

But has anyone entertained notions of who will be playing whom in the 
Potter films beyond who's been cast for the first one?

Harry Anderson, for instance, strikes me as the perfect actor to play 
Remus Lupin.

And Billy Zane strikes me as right for Sirius.

Indigo





From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Mar 16 02:48:32 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:48:32 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: spouse theory
In-Reply-To: <005701c0ad68$1286c4c0$8a14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEPEDDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14439

Dumbledore and McGonagall as lovers/married?  If so, they are oddly formal
with one another at the beginning of PS/SS.  McGonagall is surprised that D.
recognizes her in cat form.  Of course, they could have married some time
during Harry's childhood with the Dursleys. Or perhaps they just belong to
that curious generation that calls their spouses Mr. and Mrs. even in the
bedroom.

JKR's answer on this question is ambiguous, as usual:
     >>>>>Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?
      Good question - yes, a few of them, but that information
      is sort of restricted - you'll find out why..<<<<<<<<

She doesn't say they are married to EACH OTHER, just that some of them
have/had spouses.  I'm still in the Mrs. Snape train of thought -- she's
either dead (killed by Voldemort) or still alive and still loyal to
Voldemort.  That would account for Snape's unhappy personality.

I think Dumbledore is probably a widower.  We don't know if Lupin has ever
been married.  McGonagall....??? I dunno.  None of the other professors have
enough "screen time" to matter -- it doesn't seem important at this stage of
the story whether they are married or not.

SML

======================================================
Evil Henchman Guidelines:
#6.  As soon as the evil lord has the Hero in his
power, seek the nearest available escape route.
The fewmets are about to hit the windmill.
======================================================




From indigo at indigosky.net  Fri Mar 16 02:22:52 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (indigo at indigosky.net)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:22:52 -0000
Subject: HP Casting Call [newbie question]
Message-ID: <98rtds+fe7l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14440

Only on the list two days, please forgive if this is a question 
that's been already asked...or if this is a topic for another HP list.

But has anyone entertained notions of who will be playing whom in the 
Potter films beyond who's been cast for the first one?

Harry Anderson, for instance, strikes me as the perfect actor to play 
Remus Lupin.

And Billy Zane strikes me as right for Sirius.

Indigo





From bohners at pobox.com  Fri Mar 16 02:47:41 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:47:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi & Personality
References: <98rs47+rhqm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03b101c0adc6$3c34d880$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14441

> Hmmm.  Interesting way to look at this.  Peter doesn't seem to have a
> killer instinct.  He'd much rather wait around for someone else to
> get the job done and then sneak in to get his scraps.

Except that Peter was the one who not only betrayed James and Lily to their
deaths, but also willingly blew up fourteen Muggles in the process of faking
his own death.  A rat can be savage when desperate, and Peter was desperate
to save his skin and implicate Sirius.

> I have a little trouble with McGonagall's potential killer instinct.

So do I.  I bet she could be scary when she's really in a focused rage, but
aside from her yelling at Lee Jordan during Quidditch games, we haven't
really seen that side of her at all.  When she came to report Barty Crouch's
death to Dumbledore she seemed to be half in shock over the horror and the
suddenness of it, and of course it wasn't as though Barty was a personal
friend of hers or anything.

> She wasn't at all happy in GoF when Moody turned Draco into
> the "amazing bouncing ferret."

He was breaking the rules, and in her own area of expertise
(Transfiguration), so I'm not surprised.  But you're right, I can't see
McGonagall as someone who would play with her enemy before killing him -- if
she'd kill at all.  Mind you, I did have a cat like that once, too -- not a
malicious bone in his furry body, and the only food he was interested in
came out of the can -- but it's out of the ordinary.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From bohners at pobox.com  Fri Mar 16 02:56:03 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:56:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks
References: <98rqbi+u772@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03b201c0adc6$3d8c2b20$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14442

Spoiler space again...

M
I
K
E

I
S
N
'
T

R
O
M
A
N

H
E
'
S

M
A
R
G
A
R
E
T

I asked, with regard to the question of why Hermione didn't bring
Crookshanks out of the dorm more often:

>> Is it against school rules to bring one's pet to  classes?  If so, why
does Neville get to carry Trevor everywhere? <<

> Probably because:
>
> 1) Toads are useful in the actual conjuring. Warts or secretions.
> 2) Neville's terrified he'll lose Trevor if he doesn't carry him
> around.

#2 I'd agree with, definitely.  As for #1, presumably all wizardly pets are
of some use when conjuring.  But it's been suggested by Pippin in another
message (which unfortunately got e-mailed to me rather than posted to the
group):

> Crookie obviously can pass physically for a pure cat and Hermione
might have good reasons for wanting him to do so.  There may be
regulations against underage wizards keeping part kneazles at Hogwarts,
or in Muggle homes, as Hermione must do over the summer, the purpose
being to keep them from breeding with domestic non-magical housecats. <

Which I think is quite a good explanation.  JKR does say in the book that
Kneazles and Crups can't be kept without a special license, and are not
supposed to be in Muggle homes.  So it'd be in Hermione's interests to
pretend that Crookshanks was an ordinary cat and not let on that she knows
he's really part Kneazle.

(Oh, and OT to Pippin:  I haven't actually seen SOYLENT GREEN.  Or CITIZEN
KANE for that matter.)

> The only thing that really springs to mind is that Crookshanks
> apparently is somewhat familiar with the grounds of Hogwarts and the
> Whomping Willow -- he knew where the knot to stop the tree is.

Aha!  I knew there was something of that sort in PoA.  Thanks.

(I should mention that when I first read PoA, I thought Crookshanks was
Sirius.  So did my husband when I read the book to him.)
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From margdean at erols.com  Fri Mar 16 03:39:15 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:39:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: spouse theory
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEPEDDAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3AB18AE3.64FDBD1@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14443

Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:
 
> We don't know if Lupin has ever been married.  

The first time I even considered this possibility, I heard this .
. . =voice= in my head.  Now, I know where it came from:  it came
from an amateur stage show based on Jules Feiffer's cartoons, one
of them being about a werewolf who had Awful Things happen to his
spouse and family when he changed . . . but the rather hesitant,
regretful tone the actor had used for the final line in his
monologue was just =perfect= for Remus as he said:

"Werewolves really -- shouldn't marry."


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From ljl236 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 03:18:50 2001
From: ljl236 at yahoo.com (LJL)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:18:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: happy 
In-Reply-To: <984709163.40459.51312.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010316031850.17209.qmail@web9102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14444

   * Don't the new little books just make you happy? It must have been
such a blast for JKR to not just write the contents but to devise all the
details in and on these volumes that makes them such fun (I AM NOT
SPOILING!!) plus, all for a good cause. Wish there were more like her; she
must have relied on an anti-celebrity charm to help keep her head on
straight and maintain her values. Rita Skeeter betrays much that can be
wrong with the media, I'm sorry to say, for I work in that business.
    * Aren't you happy Jim Dale's performance of GofF won a Grammy? I know
many prefer Stephen Fry, but I think Dale's readings are great and I find
them a very soothing way to unwind at bedtime. I'm old, for a Potter fan,
but I don't think anyone gets too old to enjoy being told a story.
    * One of our listmates told a charming anecdote about her mother
looking forward to seeing the Ollivander scene in the upcoming movie. Me,
too. Don't you love thinking about various scenes and how they will look
and play out? I adore the description of Harry's first happy Christmas,
and the Weasley sweaters, and the snowball fight. "Gred" and "Forge"
making fun of their mum's knitting letters into their sweaters cracks me
up every time. So now, with Spring right around the corner, I'm dreaming
of seeing Hogwarts in the snow.
   * I volunteer as a tutor to third graders in my neighborhood school. It
just thrills me that so many of the kids are Harry Potter readers. I have
promised copies of "Beasts" and "Quidditch" to a boy next week if he can
show me a perfect arithmetic paper. He's been having difficulty with word
problems, partly because he rushes through his work and partly because
English is his second language. But he reads and loves Harry Potter books,
and I have no doubt he'll hand me a nice, clean test paper proving he can
"de-code" the words so he knows whether to add or subtract to solve the
problem, and he'll win his prize. Happy, happy. Think I'll give a set of
the books to the teacher for her homeroom, too.
  -- Lilah
      

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From linman6868 at aol.com  Fri Mar 16 03:48:36 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 03:48:36 -0000
Subject: Animagi & Personality
In-Reply-To: <03b101c0adc6$3c34d880$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <98s2ek+tbkk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14445

snippings:
> 
> > She wasn't at all happy in GoF when Moody turned Draco into
> > the "amazing bouncing ferret."
> 
> He was breaking the rules, and in her own area of expertise
> (Transfiguration), so I'm not surprised.  But you're right, I can't 
see
> McGonagall as someone who would play with her enemy before killing 
him -- if
> she'd kill at all <snip>

And plus, her feline sense of rectitude would override the toying-
with-prey instinct.  This has often happened with cats of my 
acquaintance.  Rectitude and dignity are paramount with domestic cats.

Lisa
who hasn't seen DEAD AGAIN in years and now wishes she had a TV, let 
alone a VCR  :)  :D  %^D




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 16 06:51:54 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 06:51:54 -0000
Subject: Harry's Word Count
Message-ID: <98sd6a+uh93@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14446

I was reading over past Harry Potter articles whilst surfing the net 
and I came across one of the many GoF ones which says something to 
the effect of: 'HP4 is the longest novel in the HP series yet'. 
Whilst this is probably true, is it THAT much longer than PoA, 
really? My British-version copy of GoF looks a lot thicker than my 
British-version of PoA - but this is largely due to larger font and 
bigger spacing in GoF, compared to PoA which is rather 'cramped' by 
comparison. Does anyone know the word count (or at least, have a 
rough estimate of the word count) to properly compare the length of 
the two? And, for that matter, what's the number of words in SS/PS 
and CoS?

--> Sam (Feeling nerdishly obssessed ;)




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Fri Mar 16 06:48:44 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 06:48:44 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Word Count
References: <98sd6a+uh93@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009801c0ade5$2594d200$bf3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 14447

Sam said:

> My British-version copy of GoF looks a lot thicker than my 
> British-version of PoA - but this is largely due to larger font and 
> bigger spacing in GoF, compared to PoA which is rather 'cramped' by 
> comparison. Does anyone know the word count (or at least, have a 
> rough estimate of the word count) to properly compare the length of 
> the two? And, for that matter, what's the number of words in SS/PS 
> and CoS?

These are approximate word counts for the books:

SS/PS - 78,500
CoS - 87,000
PoA - 106,500
GoF - 196,000

So, GoF is nearly twice the size of PoA!   

Phew... it took me ages to count all those words.

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, 
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint 
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything 
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm







From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar 16 08:49:01 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:49:01 -0000
Subject: Fwd:  Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Wild Theories listening to SS on tape.
Message-ID: <98sk1t+2j5o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14448

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
Denise R (hope that is who) wrote:


Oh, and my last thought, after hearing Hagrid's discussion of Lily and
James, and Harry's ability as a wizard in the hut.  He made a comment 
about
not knowing why Voldie never tried to get them on his side, but 
assumed it
was because of their devotion to AD.  What if that auror/etc job we 
keep
plopping on them isn't it?  What if they're...

drum rolls....

of the Order of the Phoenix?  That's why they're so pro-Dumbledore?  
He's
something like the "grand-pubar" (sp) or whatnot?  He sent them out 
to do
things anti-Voldie..
Just a parting thought.

hmmmmmm

What if James & Lily are OoP ... and what if Voldie used to be one 
too? I mean, maybe he was not totally turned evil yet ... maybe in 
his twenties... and they all 3 belonged ... maybe that is when he had 
a "thing for Lily"? Am I off the wall here? Or is it just past my 
bedtime?

BTW ... if the OT group goes OnTopic... does some Lord Overseer move 
the letters to the right group while we sleep?
Doreen, who now knows the answer to that question ... *smile*
--- End forwarded message ---





From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar 16 08:53:24 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:53:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] MWPP/S dates and Reign of Terror
References: <98rp0r+kuad@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <021201c0adf6$9199a6e0$6914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14449



The following assumes that when JKR said in the recent chat that
Snape was 35 or 6, she meant "now" (i.e., in GoF).  It also assumes
that MWPP were all exactly the same year, which is not confirmed.
All dates approximate within a year or so.

1960 MWPP & Snape born

1970 Voldemort's 11 years in power (PS) begin

1971 MWPP & Snape enter Hogwarts

1978 MWPP/S graduate

1981 Voldemort's 11 years in power end

In other words, Snape, Sirius, et al are of the generation whose
Hogwarts education took place entirely during the reign of terror.
That has to be significant to who they are and what they did in
school and afterwards, even though we've only seen glimpses of it so
far.

Amy Z

Well, that blows a big black hole in my theory .. back to the drawing
board... or to bed would probably be a better idea.
Doreen





From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 09:17:02 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:17:02 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Location Confirmed in FB?
References: <01cf01c0ad77$ee2e5060$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <007c01c0adf9$de21e880$29f9e83f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14450



> More spoiler space...
>
> R
> O
> S
> E
> B
> U
> D
>
> W
> A
> S
>
> C
> I
> T
> I
> Z
> E
> N
>
> K
> A
> N
> E
> '
> S
>
> S
> L
> E
> D
>
> before, but I found it interesting.  Why don't we see more Scottish
students
> at Hogwarts, I wonder?  I can't really think of one character whose
name
> makes me think they are anything but English, except for Seamus
Finnegan of
> course.

Isn't Finnegan an Irish name?

Rena -- confused



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From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar 16 09:27:56 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 03:27:56 -0600
Subject: SHIP information request
Message-ID: <026001c0adfb$641ea3a0$6914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14451

Is there a file or list or something where I can learn the basics about ships? I have searched the messages and so forth ... and there is simply TMI! 

It is my understanding that the people who are on each ship have the same two people "paired together" based on their own preferences, backed up by information given in the books. Is this correct?

Is there a Lily/Snape ship? If so, how does one join it?

Doreen, curious but still undecided 

"Oooooooh!" he said, with an evil cackle. "Ickle Firsties! What fun!" Peeves the Poltergeist, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 09:22:37 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:22:37 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] in defense of sirius black
References: <20010315182841.55205.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009901c0adfb$4d5b4ec0$29f9e83f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14452

> So Snape goes into the tunnel and is killed by Remus Lupin.
>
> Let's say for the sake of argument that a Snapeless world would be a
> better place and that getting rid of Snape in and of itself is an
> acceptable goal.
>
I don't think that if Snape  had gotten killed by Lupin we'd have a
Snapeless world. I bet he'd be a ghost haunting the grounds of
Hogwarts and the castle.

Rena



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From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 09:27:18 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:27:18 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why didn't Harry get an award?
References: <98r1qc+f5nn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009c01c0adfb$4e6f7de0$29f9e83f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14453

>   I'm sorry if this has already been discussed but while I was
> listening to CoS on the way into work this morning it struck me as
> odd that Harry (and maybe Ron and Hermione too) ought to have been
> given an award for stopping the heir of Slytherin and the basilisk.
> Afterall, 50 years previous, Tom Riddle was given an award for the
> very same thing and HE sure didn't deserve it.
>   Any thoughts?

I totally agree, Harry and Ron should have gotten the special services
to the school award as well. I just checked the CoS and they didn't
get anything. Off course setting Dobby free and "winning" against
Malfoy is considered a reward. :)

Rena



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From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 09:29:55 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:29:55 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: When worlds collide
References: <98nkim+ei6j@eGroups.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010315104115.00beea80@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00a801c0adfb$aa770fe0$29f9e83f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14454


> BTW, as a boost to my theory, I find it interesting that nearly all
the
> Witches/Wizards connected with glasses -- Harry, James, Percy,
> McGonnegal, probably Dumbledore -- were/are Gryffindors.  I wonder
> what house Rita S. and Moaning Myrtle were in??

Hmmm, I'd say Rita was a Slytherin, and Myrtle maybe a Ravenclaw?

Rena



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From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 09:35:23 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:35:23 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't Harry get an award?
References: <98r1qc+f5nn@eGroups.com> <3AB10FF3.D3BE55C5@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <00c001c0adfc$7a40ba00$29f9e83f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14455

> > Afterall, 50 years previous, Tom Riddle was given an award for the
> > very same thing and HE sure didn't deserve it.
> >   Any thoughts?
>
> He and Ron were both awarded Special Awards for Services to the
School &
> 200 points apiece.  Granted, I think Hermione should have gotten an
> award also but .... there you go.

Thanks Penny,
I stand corrected. I overlooked it when I searched through the last
few pages of Cos.

Rena



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From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Fri Mar 16 11:16:29 2001
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:16:29 -0000
Subject: Wizard government  - a bit long
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103151824570.12917-100000@er2.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <98ssmd+q2n8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14456

> It seems like 'Ministry of Magic'
> is being used here as a generic term, more or less equivalent 
to 'wizard
> government'?  I can't see there being in the States, for example, a 
MoM,
> though there could easily be a Department of Magic.  Perhaps it's 
just
> one of those language differences.

Until recently Scotland did not have its own parliament although its 
legal and educational systems have always been entirely separate (and 
often very different) from those of the rest of the UK.   There was 
(and still is) a Secretary of State for Scotland whose 
responsibilities were to run a government department overseeing 
Scottish affairs with subdepartments for education, home affairs, 
local government etc. etc. reflecting a separate entity within the 
UK.  The Ministry of Magic sounds a bit like the way the ministry for 
Scotland worked except that it runs parallel to the Muggle government 
rather than being a subordinate part of it (or is it - who sets 
foreign policy, I wonder?)
 
> And as for the extent of the MoM (the one we're familiar with) -- 
is it
> not responsible for all of Britain?  

<snip>

> so there must be some sort of governing
> body peculiar to Scotland to represent it to the International
> Confederation of Wizards -- would this be a subgroup of the MoM, or
> something else entirely?  

An interesting question.  The make-up of the United Kingdom is full 
of anomalies but we seem to manage OK apart from 'the Irish 
Question'.  Scotland and Wales have their own representative 
assemblies but British Government (many people mistake it for 
an 'English' government) has overall responsibility for all parts of 
the UK - e.g. for foreign policy, customs and excise, income tax 
etc.  In Scotland we elect members to Parliament in London (MPs) and 
to Parliament in Edinburgh (MSPs) and to the European Parliament 
(MEPs).  In the Wizarding world there must be some things that are 
handled at local level - the Scots may be responsible for the care of 
the Loch Ness Monster for example.  Other things will be the 
responsiblity at UK or even "UK and Ireland" level - such as, 
perhaps, education  - JKR said Hogwarts was the only magical school 
in the UK and Irish wizarding children also attend it.  

In most Muggle sports, for example, there are separate national teams 
for Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland - but for some 
sports there is an Irish team drawn from both sides of the border and 
in the Olympic Games the UK fields a single team.  The situation 
regarding cricket is too complicated to explain (as often is the 
game).
 
I reckon that wizarding folk are probably too small a population to 
take national boundaries too seriously (except in Quidditch of 
course) and therefore will adopt a much more pragmatic approach to 
local and national affairs than Muggles and go with what works! 

Cheers for now
Pam






From monika at darwin.inka.de  Fri Mar 16 11:43:45 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (monika at darwin.inka.de)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:43:45 -0000
Subject: in defense of sirius black (Long, Rambly)
In-Reply-To: <98r7jn+fsqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98su9h+jsn1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14457

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:

> You can't even spend 12 years in such a place, starting when you're 
> 21, and end up unscarred and permanently changed. 

Of course not, you are absolutely right here. I should have 
elaborated on this point a bit further, and I really shouldn't reply
to such sirius posts when I have a headache and should rather go to
bed early.

> I don't know if any of you have ever spoken to someone who was sent 
> to prison at 21 (which is, as we extrapolate now, the age Sirius 
was 
> when we went to Azkaban). I have, when I was in law school. 

No, I haven't, and your comment is really interesting, because it
confirms what I had suspected but didn't have any proof for. And I 
always thought that Sirius was a few years older when he went to
Azkaban, but if he was only 21 he literally hasn't had any "adult"
life yet in PoA.

> You lose 
> the ability to age and grow - or at least, it becomes completely 
> twisted onto itself. 

I think this would be even more true for Azkaban. It strikes me as a
place where any human life and feeling is suppressed by the presence
of the dementors, and the prisoners in there are barley alive, they
exist in a physical way, but they deteriorate mentally.

> Over the past few weeks, since a certain column on fanfiction.net, 
> some people have discussed whether the Harry & Hermione in Paradigm 
> of Uncertainty were out of character, given how they behaved in 
> Canon. I gave, as an example, myself. The Me I was when I was 21 or 
> 28 is the same as the Me at 14 in terms of my principles (i.e. 
books 
> are good, honesty is important) but a character sketch of me at 21 
or 
> 28 would not resemble me at 14 in any but the most superficial ways 
> (and even that wouldn't match, given that I had short straight 
brown 
> hair at 14 and long blondish curls at 21). 

It would be the same for me. I don't think you can say that the Harry 
& Hermione in PoU are out of character because we don't know in which
way they would change until then. It depends on a lot of factors in
their lives. And so I would not say that the way Sirius behaved at 16 
is any real indication to his personnality at 35. You have to take
into account a lot of things here. And Azkaban has certainly 
changed him a lot, it is unrealistic to believe that this wouldn't be
the case.

> But what if that whole Change In Character period of one's life is 
> somehow put into a box, and you never get to experience it? I'm not 
> saying it makes a person bad or dangerous or untrustworthy. I am 
> saying, though, that it must be understood in context.

Very well said.

Monika






From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Fri Mar 16 11:46:42 2001
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:46:42 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Location Confirmed in FB?
In-Reply-To: <007c01c0adf9$de21e880$29f9e83f@rena>
Message-ID: <98suf2+dn72@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14458

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rena" <fmu30c at y...> wrote:

 Why don't we see more Scottish
> students
> > at Hogwarts, I wonder?  I can't really think of one character 
whose
> name
> > makes me think they are anything but English, except for Seamus
> Finnegan of
> > course.

How would you know whether students are Scottish or English?  It's 
practically impossible to write in the English language with a 
Scottish accent.  Further, there isn't just a single Scottish accent 
and in some parts of Scotland people speak with an accent that may 
sound more upper class English than Stephen Fry.  Relatively few 
Scots can actually speak 'Scots' and even fewer seem to understand 
it - Robbie Burns seems to be as difficult for young Scots to 
understand as Chaucer is for young English people.  

The names don't necessarily tell you where people come from.  They 
may tell you a little about their ancestors - you will find quite a 
lot of Finnegans in Scotland as you will lots of other Irish names, 
reflecting the migration between Scotland and Ireland.  Similarly 
with English names.  If you dine in my local Indian restaurant all 
the Scottish Asian waiters have accents straight out of the centre of 
Glasgow but their names are anything but and ditto with the local 
Chinese restaurant.  

I think that the Muggle/Mudblood issue was chosen to represent racism 
for the very reason that it is impossible to tell just by looking 
that someone is Muggle or Wizard.   I personally hope that Ms Rowling 
does not further specify the ethnic origins of Hogwarts pupils 
because I subscribe to the Star Trek approach to ethnicity.  Ethnic 
differences are totally unimportant, absolutely taken for granted and 
therefore wholly unremarkable.  

Cheers for now
Pam




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 16 12:01:12 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:01:12 -0000
Subject: killing voldemort/ dumbledore cold &  calculating?
In-Reply-To: <98rc9j+3mi6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98sva8+tcps@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14459


Since the posts are so long, I'll not quote anything here but just 
comment on the general argument. 

First, I don't think there is any questin that Harry will use AK to 
kill Voldemort. It's an Unforgivable curse, and from the disapproving 
way that Sirius said that Crouch allowed using Unforgivable curses on 
DE, I gather that it's not considered a legitimate way to fight evil -
at least by Sirius and probably by all the "really good" guys 
(Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, James, Lily, .. etc.). If Harry somehow 
gets to learn how to use the curse, the only reason I can see for it 
to happen, is to show him *not* using an Unforgivable curse, no 
matter what the stakes are.
BUT, that's not to say that he will not destroy Voldy by other means, 
that are considered legitimate. But then, unlike Kimberley and Scot, 
I do not have a problem with killing in self defense. 

In parenthesis I'd like to add that I've always found it hard to take 
pacifist positions seriously. Would you really not kill an enemy that 
threatens your life and the life of your family or friends? I would. 
I don't even see the moral dilemma of it. I might feel terrible 
afterwards, I might not recover from having killed a human being, but 
a moral dilemma? No. 
When I do take pacifist position seriously, they seem to me like an 
evasion of the responsibility of actually dealing with reality as 
part of that reality. To a-priory refuse to kill anybody, including 
those who wish to kill you, you avoid the really difficult part of 
living as a moral being - actully looking reality in the face, and 
deciding, in each particular case, what the right moral choice is. 
But that's just another kind of fear - the fear of making mistakes. 

To return to HP - I don't think there's any moral dilemma in Harry 
killing Voldy in some legitimate way (not via an Unforgivable curse). 
However, IMO it will resonate better with the books so far if Voldy 
will destroy himself through trying to destroy Harry. It ties in with 
Voldy's first encounter with Harry and provides closure. It also 
makes more sense technicaly, in that Voldy is so powerful, it's 
hard to see how anybody's powers but his own can harm him.

Naama 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 16 12:47:27 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:47:27 -0000
Subject: MWPP/S dates and Reign of Terror
In-Reply-To: <021201c0adf6$9199a6e0$6914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <98t20v+otfn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14460

<snipped timeline of MWPP/S if born c. 1960>

Doreen wrote:
> > 
> Well, that blows a big black hole in my theory .. back to the 
drawing
> board... or to bed would probably be a better idea.


What's your theory?  Does your problem vanish if JKR was saying Snape 
was 35 or 36 in PS/SS (born c. 1956)?

Amy Z

----------------------------------------
 "We don't send people to Azkaban 
 just for blowing up their aunts!"
       -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
----------------------------------------




From bohners at pobox.com  Fri Mar 16 13:28:18 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:28:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Location Confirmed in FB?
References: <01cf01c0ad77$ee2e5060$70b9e2d1@rebeccab> <007c01c0adf9$de21e880$29f9e83f@rena>
Message-ID: <045801c0ae1d$3f783120$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14461

>> I can't really think of one character whose name makes me think they are
anything but English, except for Seamus Finnegan of course. <<

> Isn't Finnegan an Irish name?

Right.  I didn't say Seamus was Scottish, rather that his name is one of
those "anything but English" ones.

Well, and the Patil twins, too -- although presumably they're second or
third generation Anglo-Indian, and therefore in the "English" category.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 16 14:28:42 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:28:42 -0000
Subject: Ethnicity of students (was Hogwarts Location)
In-Reply-To: <045801c0ae1d$3f783120$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <98t7uq+sk8g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14462

Rebecca wrote, without any spoiler space, sadly:

> Right.  I didn't say Seamus was Scottish, rather that his name is 
one of
> those "anything but English" ones.
> 
> Well, and the Patil twins, too -- although presumably they're second 
or
> third generation Anglo-Indian, and therefore in the "English" 
category.

Same with Finnegan.  It's an Irish name, but they abound amongst the 
English.  It's like asking whether Bohner is an American name...<g> 

I assumed that your question was about ethnicity, not necessarily 
place of birth.  Seamus might be from Ireland or he might be 7th 
generation English, but he's of Irish ethnicity.  Or are you really 
wondering whether anyone goes home to another country at Christmas?

Jim Dale chose to give Seamus an Irish accent but the Patils English 
ones, not Indian.  That may reflect nothing more than his relative 
talent at different accents.  I'm quite sure it was up to him, not 
something he ran by JKR.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------
 "I'm *not* going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.
 "That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.
                       -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------------




From bohners at pobox.com  Fri Mar 16 14:56:01 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:56:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ethnicity of students (was Hogwarts Location)
References: <98t7uq+sk8g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <049101c0ae29$3baf24c0$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14463

> Rebecca wrote, without any spoiler space, sadly:

Well, this topic doesn't really need it, but just for you, Amy, a nice long
one.  :)

T
H
E

G
I
R
L

I
N

T
H
E

C
R
Y
I
N
G

G
A
M
E

I
S

A

G
U
Y

(Ironically, nearly all of my spoilers are from movies I've never seen --
this one included.  Just goes to show how word gets around.)

> Same with Finnegan.  It's an Irish name, but they abound amongst the
> English.  It's like asking whether Bohner is an American name...<g>

Well, in this case, it really *is* first-generation German -- my husband
came over when he was six -- and on my part, it's Canadian.  So we're not a
good example!  But your point is taken.

> I assumed that your question was about ethnicity, not necessarily
> place of birth.  Seamus might be from Ireland or he might be 7th
> generation English, but he's of Irish ethnicity.

Judging by the rabid nature of his support for the Irish Quidditch team, I
suspect he came across on the ferry (for which I pity him, having taken that
ferry myself).  Which is not to say that old ethnic loyalties don't die
hard, but I got the impression that JKR was emphasizing his Irishness for
that purpose.  After all, Hogwarts is the only wizarding school in the U.K.,
and by far the closest, so they would naturally be getting all the students
from Ireland as well as the ones from Scotland and Wales.  It'd be odd not
to see some of those represented.

> Or are you really
> wondering whether anyone goes home to another country at Christmas?

It's a good question.  Actually, what I'm really wondering -- irrelevant to
this particular topic of ethnicity, but interesting to me nonetheless -- is
whether Snape goes home for Christmas.  I don't think we have any evidence
in the books that he does, do we?
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj





From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 15:00:49 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:00:49 -0000
Subject: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
In-Reply-To: <22.13455450.27e29e60@aol.com>
Message-ID: <98t9r1+ffhp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14464


Hmmmmmm... wait a minute!

Most reputable publishers will send out review copies to magazines 
that review books.

I used to review for the Boston Book Review. Does anyone else here 
work for a publication? All yuo have to do is make the request on 
letterhead for a review copy....

And then well we can review it!

--Suzanne



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mlleelizabeth at a... wrote:
> Is there a copy of the Stoufer book on file with the Court in which 
she filed 
> her lawsuit?  Perhaps someone could obtain a copy, or at least have 
the 
> opportunity to look the thing over, that way.
> 
> Love & Light,
> *Elizabeth*
> ~ You can never have too many Weasleys ~
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From margdean at erols.com  Fri Mar 16 15:17:17 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:17:17 -0500
Subject: Home for Christmas?
References: <98t7uq+sk8g@eGroups.com> <049101c0ae29$3baf24c0$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <3AB22E7D.77722B31@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14465

"Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote:
 
> Actually, what I'm really wondering -- irrelevant to
> this particular topic of ethnicity, but interesting to me nonetheless -- is
> whether Snape goes home for Christmas.  I don't think we have any evidence
> in the books that he does, do we?

We don't even have any evidence that he =has= a home outside
Hogwarts.  Thinking about the kind of family that might have
turned out a Severus Snape, I would also not blame him if he has
one but doesn't care to visit it (rather like Harry!).


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From my_email_1 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 15:06:54 2001
From: my_email_1 at yahoo.com (my_email_1 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:06:54 -0000
Subject: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
Message-ID: <98ta6e+6ovd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14466

Isn't it disappointing to find out that J.K.Rowling did not come up 
with the idea of Harry Potter but copied it from a previous book 
titled "The Legend of Rah and the Muggles".

In Rah and the Muggles there's a character called Larry Potter. 
Muggles are people who care for two orphaned boys who magically turn 
their dark homeland into a happy place. In J.K. Rowling's books, 
muggles is the term wizards use for humans who cannot 'do' magic.

Stouffer's book has a character called Lilly Potter. In J.K. 
Rowling's series, Lily Potter is Harry's mom.

The Larry Potter book had characters identified as "Keeper of the 
Gardens". In J.K. Rowling's book, there are "Keeper of the Keys."

Stouffer also says that Rowling's books use similar illustrations. 
Stouffer and her publisher distributed illustrations of Larry Potter 
the author said she designed in the 1980s. The pictures show a very 
noticeable resemblance: like Harry Potter, Stouffer's character has 
large glasses and wavy dark hair.

We would all be very stupid to assume that this is a coincidence. How 
can Rowling make up a story about sitting in a train and making up 
the characters, while she took the ideas from Stouffer? J.K. Rowling 
is taking all the credit for characters she did not even 'make'!




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 15:20:32 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:20:32 -0000
Subject: Nancy Stouffer's publisher
In-Reply-To: <98rr7c+q5oi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98tb00+nhsf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14467


Ah. These guys do not give review copies. They ARE in fact vanity 
publishers, although they probably more legitimate than some of the 
most notorious vanity presses, and book reviews do not review their 
books (Publisher's weekly and the Library Journal are quite fussy 
about these issues). 

Given what you have said here it is also highly unlikely that this 
will turn up in bookstores or libraries, which tend to reply highly on 
the more mainstream channels. What is more likely is that they are 
producing the book to sell on the net, and for the author to hawk in 
person. I had a friend who now publishes books with mainstream presses 
who started off publishing her works herself and then hawking them at 
elementary schools. She tended to write books about local history and 
would show up in revolutionary garb and tell her stories, and did a 
tidy business. She actually sold those books, and finally got a real 
publisher when Madeleine Le Engle recommended her. What I remember was 
that until she got a more mainstream publisher she had to do it all 
herself.

Stouffer seems to be up to something sleazy here. I think I see her 
marketing strategy: she hopes that people will invite her to places to 
talk about her lawsuit (she promotes herself as a speaker on her 
website), and she hopes to use such appearances as an occasion to sell 
her book. Very sleazy and opportunistic.

The difference between my friend and Stouffer is that my friend was 
actually writing a quality product and was marketing her work based 
upon the intrinsic appeal of her creative work. She just needed time 
to find her audience-- kids who like historical fiction. Stouffer on 
the other hand is trying to exploit Rowling's name recognition to gain 
a little notoriety. She is using litigation as a way to get attention.

Ugh!

Suzanne


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> Articles about Nancy Stouffer's reissue if "Rah and Muggles" call 
her 
> publisher "Thurman House" from Owings Mills, Md. (suburb of 
> Baltimore). No internet search turns up a hit on "Thurman House," 
but 
> a reverse phone number search shows the number belongs to a "Book 
> Producer" called Ottenheimer Publishers, Inc., with the same phone 
> number and address as given for Thurman.
> 
> According to the American Book Producers Association website, a book 
> producer puts together "complicated books" and can present them to 
> publishers or be publishers themselves. go 
> to  http://www.abpaonline.org/what.html to see their description of 
> what book producers do. Ottenheimer's listing is on that site also.
> 
> "Thurman House," or Ottenheimer, or whoever, can produce books for 
> "nontraditional" markets like mail order or door-to-door.  They 
don't 
> call themselves a vanity press, or "subsidy publisher" (the  
> industry euphemism) but they aren't a traditional house either.
> 
> So who knows? I'd be surprised to see this thing on the feature 
table 
> at Border's, but maybe you have a Rite-Aid near you. That's one of 
the 
> places that carried the book before. Too bad Rite-Aid nearly went 
> bankrupt and had to close a lot of  their stores. Something about 
bad 
> buying decisions.




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar 16 15:33:48 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:33:48 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't Harry get an award?
References: <98r1qc+f5nn@eGroups.com> <3AB10FF3.D3BE55C5@swbell.net> <00c001c0adfc$7a40ba00$29f9e83f@rena>
Message-ID: <004f01c0ae2e$7fead940$6014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14468

> He and Ron were both awarded Special Awards for Services to the
School &
> 200 points apiece.  Granted, I think Hermione should have gotten an
> award also but .... there you go.
Penny,

I didn't really think that in this case, that Hermione earned a reward. I
think she would have, had she made it past the basilisk's petrifying curse,
but she did get stopped.  I agree that the real heroes of the day were Harry
& Ron, but even then, Harry should have gotten more points than Ron did.
Babysitting Lockhart doesn't quite equal battling Quirrel and Voldie.

Doreen



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar 16 15:45:43 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 09:45:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: MWPP/S dates and Reign of Terror
References: <98t20v+otfn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c0ae30$298c55e0$6014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14469


<snipped timeline of MWPP/S if born c. 1960>

Doreen wrote:
> >
> Well, that blows a big black hole in my theory .. back to the
drawing
> board... or to bed would probably be a better idea.


What's your theory?  Does your problem vanish if JKR was saying Snape
was 35 or 36 in PS/SS (born c. 1956)?

Amy Z

My theory that Voldie was good friends with James & Lily at that time...
possibly that they all  belonged to the OoP before Voldie turned monstrously
evil.... more a thought than a theory ... and not really having perused the
time line at all, it now seems that I probably would have been better off to
have left that thought in my head.
Doreen

----------------------------------------
 "We don't send people to Azkaban
 just for blowing up their aunts!"
       -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
----------------------------------------



_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
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the messages they want to read and those they don't.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
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From bohners at pobox.com  Fri Mar 16 16:02:12 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:02:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Home for Christmas?
References: <98t7uq+sk8g@eGroups.com> <049101c0ae29$3baf24c0$70b9e2d1@rebeccab> <3AB22E7D.77722B31@erols.com>
Message-ID: <050701c0ae32$a4b07740$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14470

> > whether Snape goes home for Christmas.  I don't think we have any
evidence
> > in the books that he does, do we?

> We don't even have any evidence that he =has= a home outside
> Hogwarts.

He might not, that's true.  His family might all be dead, or have disowned
him, or be otherwise distasteful or dangerous company.  Given Sirius's
assertion that Snape came into Hogwarts knowing more curses than the
seventh-years, it sounds as though Snape was raised in a viper's nest of
dark wizards, and probably taught to revere Voldemort from an early age.
Lovely.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj





From bohners at pobox.com  Fri Mar 16 16:03:23 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:03:23 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: spouse theory
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEPEDDAA.klaatu@primenet.com> <3AB18AE3.64FDBD1@erols.com>
Message-ID: <050801c0ae32$a5c4a660$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 14471

> regretful tone the actor had used for the final line in his
> monologue was just =perfect= for Remus as he said:
>
> "Werewolves really -- shouldn't marry."

Drat it, Margaret, stop giving me fanfic ideas!

(Fortunately, I think I can resist this one.  Too much else on the boil
already.)
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Mar 16 10:07:39 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:07:39 EST5EDT
Subject: Help!
Message-ID: <46771D230C@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14472

If anyone gets this today (Ohio time - 10:00 AM - 5:30 PM) and 
has their copy of GoF, could you please give me the correct quote?

It's where Dumbledore and the kids are in Hagrid's hut telling him 
he can't quit Hogwarts because of Skeeter's article.  The quote is 
right after Harry calls Rita a cow.  Dumbledore says something 
about being momentarily deaf.

If you could e-mail me that quote, that would be awesome.  I forgot 
to bring my copy of GoF to work today and wanted that quote for 
something.  

THANKS!


Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 16:22:07 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:22:07 -0000
Subject: Help!
In-Reply-To: <46771D230C@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <98tejf+l0tn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14473

"Of course we still want to know you!" Harry said, staring at hagrid. 
"You don't think anthing that Skeeter cow-- Sorry professor," he added 
quickly, looking at Dumbledore.

"I have gone temporarily deaf and haven'r any idea what you said, 
haryy." said Dumbledore, twiddling his thumbs and staring at the 
ceiling.

Is this what you want, Rachel?

--Suzanne




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> If anyone gets this today (Ohio time - 10:00 AM - 5:30 PM) and 
> has their copy of GoF, could you please give me the correct quote?
> 
> It's where Dumbledore and the kids are in Hagrid's hut telling him 
> he can't quit Hogwarts because of Skeeter's article.  The quote is 
> right after Harry calls Rita a cow.  Dumbledore says something 
> about being momentarily deaf.
> 
> If you could e-mail me that quote, that would be awesome.  I forgot 
> to bring my copy of GoF to work today and wanted that quote for 
> something.  
> 
> THANKS!
> 
> 
> Rachel Bray
> 74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)
> 
> "Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
> in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
> and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
>  - Ron Weasley




From keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk  Fri Mar 16 16:32:34 2001
From: keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk (keith.fraser at st-annes.ox.ac.uk)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:32:34 -0000
Subject: Something funny
Message-ID: <98tf72+b4q0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14474

An amusing thought to brighten up your day.

When Hagrid takes Harry to buy his school stuff at Diagon Alley in 
Book 1, they take the boat from the Hut-on-the-Rock. This means the 
Dursleys were left with no means of returning to the mainland....they 
must have had to sit around till the coastguard arrived. :D

Keith




From shivel at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 16 16:53:22 2001
From: shivel at earthlink.net (Gail Shivel)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:53:22 -0500
Subject: Severus Snape=Perseus Evans?
Message-ID: <200103161654.IAA01166@albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14475

First of all, I am not able to keep up with all these posts, so please
forgive me if this is redundant.

I cannot be the only reader to have noticed that "Severus Snape" rearranged
is "Perseus Evans." We already know that Rowling likes to do this sort of
thing.

Wild about Snape, of course, or I wouldn't have spent so much time thinking
about this. Would love to see him as Harry's uncle!


---
Gail Shivel <shivel at earthlink.net>




From bassettlover at aol.com  Fri Mar 16 17:15:37 2001
From: bassettlover at aol.com (bassettlover at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:15:37 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: (Stoufers) Children's Books To Be Reissued
Message-ID: <97.12948a61.27e3a43c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14476

Penny wrote:"They aren't currently available in any bookstore.  They've been out of
print for years and were never circulated in anything other than small
drug-store chains in the northeastern US.  The Library of Congress never
received any copies of her books -- they were probably published by a
small vanity press.  The publisher went bankrupt at some point in the
1980s.

She is apparently now selling copies off her website (is that right
Suzanne?).  But, one of us would have to buy one off her site to get
them since the Library of Congress doesn't have a copy (and neither does
*any* public library in the US.  Once they are available in bookstores,
that will be an option but the news article quoted yesterday said late
2002.  Is that a typo?  Should it be late 2001?  Or, more likely, are
they saying 2002 because they must wait until the conclusion of the
pending lawsuit(s)?

You'll find that many of us consider Stouffer to be an opportunistic
hag."

Oh, yes, I do believe she's an opportunistic hag, but I still want to read her books.  Why?  Because I want to see what the fuss is about, and compare her books to HP.  The name Potter seems semi-common in books that take place in England, I remember reading "The Dark is Rising" series by Shannon Coooper, and she mentions a family named Potter.  Basically, Stouffer is hag, and thoughI don't want to buy a book that would give her loyalties, I do want to read them. What I meant about the bookstore is to do that after the books are re-published.  THough, maybe if you checked a used bookstore, or thirft shop, they  might have a copy of it.   

Jennie(who feels like being a Jennie instead of Jennifer today)




From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 17:31:38 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:31:38 -0000
Subject: Nancy Stouffer's own borrowing
In-Reply-To: <98tb00+nhsf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98tilq+uigc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14477

Just a little chuckle. On Ms. Stouffer's website, where she describes 
the story of her work (the little bulbous-headed creatures 
called "muggles") there is a "Time of the Purple Haze."  I thought we 
were back at Woodstock when I read that.

Where's the lawyers for Jimmi Hendrix's estate when you need 'em?




From bbennett at joymail.com  Fri Mar 16 17:35:26 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:35:26 -0000
Subject: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <98ta6e+6ovd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98tisu+2jt7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14478

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., my_email_1 at y... wrote:

<clip of an unsigned email that appears to be from the Stouffer camp>

> We would all be very stupid to assume that this is a coincidence. 
>How can Rowling make up a story about sitting in a train and making 
>up the characters, while she took the ideas from Stouffer? J.K. 
>Rowling is taking all the credit for characters she did not 
>even 'make'!

You are welcome to assume your own stupidity, but please do not do it 
on my behalf. If anything, I find it rather insulting that I'm asked 
to agree that similarities in two different works of literature 
automatically equal plagerism. There are only so many unique names 
and terms that can be conceived of, and I don't find it a stretch to 
believe that two original books might have things in common, like the 
very common names Larry/Harry, Lily/Lilli, or a brown-haired boy with 
round glasses/a black haired boy with round glasses. I *do* find it 
rather unbelieveable that Stouffer claims to have created a "Keeper" 
of anything - this appears so many times in literature and in movies. 
Why in the world would Rowling choose to steal these few and not-
particularly original aspects of Stouffer's books, when she's 
obviously proved she has more than sufficient imagination of her own?

Stouffer wrote a little book that she did rather well with - good for 
her. But the facts she's presented do not support her claims. 

B (who may now be fired from her post as Good Will Ambassador of the 
Good Ship R/H, but who really detests condescending, unsigned posts)




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Fri Mar 16 17:36:05 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:36:05 -0000
Subject: british tv (this evening, and this week)
Message-ID: <98tiu5+4hm7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14479

1. Can someone who watched JKR on Blue Peter this week put together a 
transcript? A few people promised they would, and we never heard 
anything about what she said.
2. From Countingdown.com's HP page today, there was a blurb about a 
British tv show tonight called ANT AND DEC from 7pm - 8.30pm - Among 
the guests tonight are Stephen Fry and Harry Potter (Daniel 
Radcliffe) - can someone PLEASE watch & report back as well? 





From bkdelong at pobox.com  Fri Mar 16 17:46:01 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:46:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <98ta6e+6ovd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316124011.06171d80@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14480

At 03:06 PM 03/16/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>We would all be very stupid to assume that this is a coincidence. How
>can Rowling make up a story about sitting in a train and making up
>the characters, while she took the ideas from Stouffer? J.K. Rowling
>is taking all the credit for characters she did not even 'make'!

Go away, troll. Stop trying to pick a fight.

Since Stouffer's publisher went out of business 12 years before Harry 
Potter was published, did not send a copy of her books to the Libary of 
Congress, doesn't appear in ANY news archives prior to 1999 when her 
"dispute" came to light, and her books can't be found anywhere, how are we 
to know that Stouffer didn't change her drawings to look more like Harry? 
How do we know that she even had those books back then?

 From a legal standpoint, Stouffer did not trademark Larry Potter, or Lilly 
Potter or even Muggles when she first used them LONG before J.K. Rowling 
did. I don't even think she used the book enough "in commerce" (ie sold as 
many books as Rowling did) to warrant her getting the trademark rights. She 
didn't even apply for a trademark until AFTER Warner Bros. did.

Personally, I think Stouffer's being jealous and selfish to think that J.K. 
Rowling ripped her off.


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From john at walton.to  Fri Mar 16 17:55:34 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:55:34 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <98ta6e+6ovd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6D80416.E6AE%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14481

my_email_1 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Isn't it disappointing to find out that J.K.Rowling did not come up
> with the idea of Harry Potter but copied it from a previous book
> titled "The Legend of Rah and the Muggles".

<cough> Plant. Anybody got weedkiller?

--John
____________________________________________

"We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters
will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to
the Internet, we know this is not true."

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Fri Mar 16 17:57:41 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:57:41 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] british tv (this evening, and this week)
In-Reply-To: <98tiu5+4hm7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEBBDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 14482

Heidi: "1. Can someone who watched JKR on Blue Peter this week put together
a transcript? A few people promised they would, and we never heard anything
about what she said."

Sorry didn't see it. BP does not seem to do transcripts (have looked) and
the BBC in general is fairly bad ar them. There is still no sign of the
transcript form the online chat being posted anytime soon.


Heidi: "2. From Countingdown.com's HP page today, there was a blurb about a
British tv show tonight called ANT AND DEC from 7pm - 8.30pm - Among the
guests tonight are Stephen Fry and Harry Potter (Daniel Radcliffe) - can
someone PLEASE watch & report back as well?"

Tonight, that would be Comic Relief (also known as Red Nose Day). Ant and
Dec are on between 7 pm and 8:30 pm, but it is not clear what will be on.
The web site in question is quoting from The Mirror, so out comes my ton of
salt to the credibility of the comment. I have not seen this advertised
anywhere else, but will attempt to watch some of it anyway (just have to
convince a friend to let me choose what he watches this evening).


Simon
--
"Do not wear yourself out to get rich. Have the wisdom to show restraint."
Proverbs 23:4
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 18:09:17 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:09:17 -0000
Subject: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316124011.06171d80@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <98tksd+cpjs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14483

Anonymous:"We would all be very stupid to assume that this is a 
coincidence. How can Rowling make up a story about sitting in a train 
and making up the characters, while she took the ideas from Stouffer? 
J.K. Rowling is taking all the credit for characters she did not 
even 'make'!"

B.K.:"From a legal standpoint, Stouffer did not trademark Larry 
Potter, or Lilly Potter or even Muggles when she first used them LONG 
before J.K. Rowling did. I don't even think she used the book 
enough "in commerce" (ie sold as many books as Rowling did) to 
warrant her getting the trademark rights. "

I don't know if there's any minimum use "in commerce" to secure 
trademark rights, but how about this more common-sense argument: Does 
the success of the Harry Potter series, one of the publishing phenoms 
of all time, depend in any way at all on the use of the Potter names, 
the word "muggle", or any other word? If his name was anything else I 
can't imagine it would make any difference.  Between Ms. Stouffer's 
books and the Potter series, the characters aren't alike and the 
plotlines of the books aren't alike. 

B.K.:"how are we to know that Stouffer didn't change her drawings to 
look more like Harry? "

I, like B.K., have my doubts that the "picture" Ms. Stouffer produced 
is original and dates from her original work. Neither Ms. Stouffer 
nor her publisher did the things that are usually done to secure a 
copyright. Not that it matters; once Stouffer used the character, if 
in fact she did, does this means nobody else can have a small kid 
with dark hair in their story? Why would JKR imperil all her original 
work to steal such inconsequential elements?

And is Ms. Stouffer going to sue the Yeomen of the Guard at the Tower 
of London? They have a "Keeper of the Keys" as well: "Who goes 
there?" "The Keys!" "Whose keys?" "Queen Elizabeth's Keys!"




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 18:13:51 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:13:51 -0000
Subject: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316124011.06171d80@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <98tl4v+dobm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14484


> At 03:06 PM 03/16/2001 +0000, you wrote:
> >We would all be very stupid to assume that this is a coincidence. 
How
> >can Rowling make up a story about sitting in a train and making up
> >the characters, while she took the ideas from Stouffer? J.K. 
Rowling
> >is taking all the credit for characters she did not even 'make'!
> 


It looks like Nancy Stouffer has joined out group. What a laughably 
naive post.

All I can say is that I have looked at Stouffer's site and her 
claims, and I do not believe that she has even come close to the 
legal standard of significant similarity. 

Her claims have been examined in depth in this group and have been 
found severely lacking-- for example, the little bald cartoon 
creatures she calls "muggles" bear no resemblance that I can see to 
the muggles of Rowlings books, which are simply ordinary human 
beings. Muggles by the way is a word which you can find in the OED-- 
and in Scotland has been a piece of popular slang meaning "stupid 
person" at least since the 18th century.

Another example:  Stouffer's "Larry Potter" (who bears a striking 
resemblence to Henry Reed, a popular character in children's 
literature *smile*) has brown hair and brown eyes, not black hair and 
green eyes, and so far as I can see has no lightning shaped scar his 
forehead, nor is he a wizard. "Lilly Potter", his "friend" is a 
little girl with brown hair-- not his red-haired green-eyed magical 
mother who died to save his life. Given that the names are common as 
dirt and can be found in a multitude of phone books, and given that 
Stouffer's story is not in any way about witches and wizards, where 
is the significant similarity? 

Most of Stouffer's claims for similarity rest upon devices which are 
common to many, many fairy tales and are not original to either her 
works or Rowlings. They are very weak claims. Interestingly, despite 
the claims she makes on her website, Stouffer is not pressing a 
plagarism suit against Rowling: she is only claiming trademark 
violation. Considering that Stouffer's trademarks are still pending, 
and that Rowling has never used any of her trademarks, these are wild 
claims indeed. I would suggest that given Stouffer's long history of 
failures that she is benefiting from Rowling's name recognition-- not 
the other way around. If it looks like gold-digging, smells like-gold-
digging, and sounds like gold-digging.... *smile* Of course this is 
only my humble opinion. 

Not surprisingly, Stouffer has won no victories.




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Fri Mar 16 18:19:55 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:19:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <98tksd+cpjs@eGroups.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316124011.06171d80@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316131238.0530ce70@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14485

At 06:09 PM 03/16/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>I don't know if there's any minimum use "in commerce" to secure
>trademark rights, but how about this more common-sense argument: Does
>the success of the Harry Potter series, one of the publishing phenoms
>of all time, depend in any way at all on the use of the Potter names,
>the word "muggle", or any other word? If his name was anything else I
>can't imagine it would make any difference.  Between Ms. Stouffer's
>books and the Potter series, the characters aren't alike and the
>plotlines of the books aren't alike.

Agreed. And Even though Warner Bros. has trademarks for Muggles they 
haven't issued a single product centered around it.

>Why would JKR imperil all her original
>work to steal such inconsequential elements?

Also, I believe Time Warner's lawyers would have done EXTENSIVE due 
diligence before purchasing trademark rights. The fact that this may have 
not showed up on their radar leaves me suspicious.

>And is Ms. Stouffer going to sue the Yeomen of the Guard at the Tower
>of London? They have a "Keeper of the Keys" as well: "Who goes
>there?" "The Keys!" "Whose keys?" "Queen Elizabeth's Keys!"

Not only that but "Mug" is British slang for someone who "doesn't get it." 
How do we know Rowling didn't come up with Mugblood before "Muggle" ?

Boggles.

--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 18:28:44 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:28:44 -0000
Subject: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316131238.0530ce70@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <98tm0s+vsrd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14486

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "B.K. DeLong" <bkdelong at p...> wrote:

> Agreed. And Even though Warner Bros. has trademarks for Muggles 
they haven't issued a single product centered around it.
> 


How interesting! 

I know that a company which makes dolls currently owns the trademark 
to "muggles"-- but if I am not mistaken, trademarks have to be 
specific to certain products, right? There is a also a restaurant 
called Muggles which has trademarked the name. The trademark which 
Stouffer has pending (and does not yet own) is for refrigerator 
magnets depicting her little bald cartoon characters, worry stones, 
and other such knick-knacks. I fail to see any connection between 
what she is trying to sell and the Harry Potter series.

Interestingly, Rowling has not used the word "muggle" as a trademark--
she has used it simply as a word, like "green" or "turnip". This is 
protected usage under copyright law-- no matter who uses the word as 
a trademark, they can't stop people from using it as a word.




From wings909 at aol.com  Fri Mar 16 18:28:48 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:28:48 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
Message-ID: <e6.12ce89ec.27e3b560@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14487

Methinks we have a troll in our midsts...<takes out wand>...

In a message dated Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:08:33 AM Eastern Standard Time someone obviously from Stouffer's camp (if not the head troll herself) writes:

<< We would all be very stupid to assume that this is a coincidence. How 
can Rowling make up a story about sitting in a train and making up 
the characters, while she took the ideas from Stouffer? J.K. Rowling 
is taking all the credit for characters she did not even 'make'!>>

I'm afraid, my dear troll, that *you* are very stupid indeed to think that there is any evidence to prove that JKR "took" the characters from Stouffer. You will find no supporters here for your dark purposes. <Paula's wand banishes troll>

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor (troll banishing earns 20 points)





From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Fri Mar 16 18:48:51 2001
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (skywalker1 at ibm.net)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:48:51 -0000
Subject: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <98ta6e+6ovd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98tn6j+80a4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14488

I think that Arthur Weasley had a name for what this author is trying 
to do ... Muggle baiting.  Well, this muggle aint biting.



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., my_email_1 at y... wrote:
> Isn't it disappointing to find out that J.K.Rowling did not come up 
> with the idea of Harry Potter but copied it from a previous book 
> titled "The Legend of Rah and the Muggles".
> 
> In Rah and the Muggles there's a character called Larry Potter. 
> Muggles are people who care for two orphaned boys who magically 
turn 
> their dark homeland into a happy place. In J.K. Rowling's books, 
> muggles is the term wizards use for humans who cannot 'do' magic.
> 
> Stouffer's book has a character called Lilly Potter. In J.K. 
> Rowling's series, Lily Potter is Harry's mom.
> 
> The Larry Potter book had characters identified as "Keeper of the 
> Gardens". In J.K. Rowling's book, there are "Keeper of the Keys."
> 
> Stouffer also says that Rowling's books use similar illustrations. 
> Stouffer and her publisher distributed illustrations of Larry 
Potter 
> the author said she designed in the 1980s. The pictures show a very 
> noticeable resemblance: like Harry Potter, Stouffer's character has 
> large glasses and wavy dark hair.
> 
> We would all be very stupid to assume that this is a coincidence. 
How 
> can Rowling make up a story about sitting in a train and making up 
> the characters, while she took the ideas from Stouffer? J.K. 
Rowling 
> is taking all the credit for characters she did not even 'make'!




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Fri Mar 16 18:52:33 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:52:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <98tksd+cpjs@eGroups.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316124011.06171d80@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316134730.06112030@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14489

At 06:09 PM 03/16/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>And is Ms. Stouffer going to sue the Yeomen of the Guard at the Tower
>of London? They have a "Keeper of the Keys" as well: "Who goes
>there?" "The Keys!" "Whose keys?" "Queen Elizabeth's Keys!"

Yeah -

I did an interesting Google search:

(Keeper of the Keys without Hagrid - 2,230)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=%22Keeper+%2Bof+the+Keys%22+-Hagrid

(Keeper of the Keys WITH Hagrid - 97)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=%22Keeper+%2Bof+the+Keys%22+Hagrid

I also have all 4 books as EBooks. Only ONCE is Hagrid referred to as 
"Keeper of the Keys" - and that's as the title of Chapter 4 in Book 1.

Here's the other 2:

  "True, I haven't introduced meself. Rubeus Hagrid, Keeper of
Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts."

"Call me Hagrid," he said, "everyone does. An' like I told yeh,
I'm Keeper of Keys at Hogwarts -- yeh'll know all about Hogwarts,


PA-leese.


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From margdean at erols.com  Fri Mar 16 19:41:10 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:41:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: spouse theory
References: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOKEPEDDAA.klaatu@primenet.com> <3AB18AE3.64FDBD1@erols.com> <050801c0ae32$a5c4a660$70b9e2d1@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <3AB26C56.702D3345@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14490

"Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" wrote:
> 
> > regretful tone the actor had used for the final line in his
> > monologue was just =perfect= for Remus as he said:
> >
> > "Werewolves really -- shouldn't marry."
> 
> Drat it, Margaret, stop giving me fanfic ideas!

<evil grin>
 
> (Fortunately, I think I can resist this one.  Too much else on the boil
> already.)

Actually, I don't think Remus would marry, for that very reason
-- or at least, he wouldn't have up till now.  If the Wolfsbane
Potion becomes more generally available, though, I can see him
considering it, if he found the right woman.


--Margaret Dean (already married, drat! ;) )
  <margdean at erols.com>



From linman6868 at aol.com  Fri Mar 16 19:41:02 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:41:02 -0000
Subject: The Only Established (filk)
Message-ID: <98tq8e+4vra@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14491

(No actual lyrics were harmed in the making of this filk--I hope!  li)

"The Only Established"
["The Oldest Established" from GUYS AND DOLLS]

Empty classroom.  Enter Harry, pulled in by Fred and George.

Fred [spoken]: Harry, you've got to get down to Hogsmeade.

George:  The village is up to here with Hogwarts students.

Harry:  I know! I know! But how do I get out of the castle?

F: [sings] They're requiring a note from the lad--
G:  But poor lad, there's no note to be had--
H:  And they've now got dementors at the door--
F&G:  So he can't get out that way anymore!
F:  There was a chance he could go without a note--
G:  But Professor McGonagall ain't a good scout--
H:  And things being how they are,
     A cachet from Severus is OUT!
     So it looks like I'm back to square one...
F&G:  But hold on Harry, you're not quite done!

[F taps the Marauder's Map]

F&G:  Why it's good old reliable Moony,
      Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs!
      If you're looking for mischief,
      Well, X marks the spot!
      Even when the heat is on
      It's never too hot--NOT
      For good old reliable Moony--
      You will never have to be bored;
      It's the Only Established Mischievous Knowing Map from Filch's 
Drawer!

      There are well-trod pathways everywhere,
      everywhere, there are well-trod pathways everywhere...
      And a chance to spot a teacher
      Or an ill-intentioned peacher--there...

H:    (If I only had this lovely little map
      I could vanish in thin air!)

F&G:  Yes! it's good old reliable Moony,
      Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs!
      If your candy and joke stash
      You want to increase,
      They'll arrange that you get there 
      in quiet and peace--
      Through a passage provided by Moony,
      Known by only us and these Four!
      It's the Only Established, Mischievous, Knowing--shh!
                                      *-Map from Filch's Drawer-*

H:    Where's the passage?
F&G:  Out this room!
H:    (Gotta leave this room or I'll die from gloom)

All:  It's the Only Established, Mischievous Knowing Map from Filch's 
Dra-a-a-a-aaaawer!

F: [spoken] Bye, Harry!
G:  Yeah, see you in Hogsmeade!




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 16 20:22:21 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:22:21 -0000
Subject: SHIP information request (FB spoilers)
In-Reply-To: <026001c0adfb$641ea3a0$6914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <98tslt+p3jl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14492

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:

> 
> Is there a Lily/Snape ship? 
> 
	There is a Snape/Lily ship: last sighted in message 11088, but I 
will quote as it is quite short:

	The chattering crowd hushes on the entertainment deck, 
conversations fail, ice cubes clink  against the cocktail glasses 
clutched in suddenly nerveless hands.
	The sun is setting. Over the wine dark sea the SS Snape/Lily comes 
gliding on a freezing wind, her torn sails black against the blood-red 
sky, her mariners ghostly, a single albatross following on wide  
unwavering wings...


** spoiler space for FB**
D
A
R
T
H
 
I
S

L
U
K
E
'
S

F
A
T
H
E
R


>If so, how does one join it?<

>From the Office of Magical Transportation
Cuthbert Conestoga, Undersecretary for Shipping/Employment Division
	We are in receipt of your request to join the crew of the Snape/
Lily, however, according to our records you are currently a Being. 
Therefore we must regretfully deny your application as employment on 
the Snape/Lily is restricted to Spirits only per section 118(c) of the 
Regulations for the Control of Magical Shipping. We would be happy to 
review your application should your status change.
Yours, etc.

Pippin





From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar 16 18:44:13 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:44:13 -0600
Subject: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
References: <e6.12ce89ec.27e3b560@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AB25EFD.83A50534@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14493

Hi --

wings909 at aol.com wrote:

> Methinks we have a troll in our midsts...<takes out wand>...

Actually, what we have is a "hit-and-run troll" at that!  It appears
that the poster of the original message was only a member long enough to
post the message before disappearing into the ether.  We were discussing
the Stouffer matter a bit anyway so ... there's no harm in continuing to
discuss it.  But, there's really no point getting all worked up since
this person is no longer around to hear our comments (or if he/she is
around, they've used another email address to subscribe & view the
comments).

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Fri Mar 16 20:29:30 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:29:30 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] british tv (this evening, and this week)
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEBBDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINOEBEDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 14494

Heidi: "2. From Countingdown.com's HP page today, there was a blurb about a
British tv show tonight called ANT AND DEC from 7pm - 8.30pm - Among the
guests tonight are Stephen Fry and Harry Potter (Daniel Radcliffe) - can
someone PLEASE watch & report back as well?"

Me earlier: "Tonight, that would be Comic Relief (also known as Red Nose
Day). Ant and Dec are on between 7 pm and 8:30 pm, but it is not clear what
will be on. The web site in question is quoting from The Mirror, so out
comes my ton of salt to the credibility of the comment. I have not seen
this advertised anywhere else, but will attempt to watch some of it anyway
(just have to convince a friend to let me choose what he watches this
evening)."

Well it seems as if I will need a shovel to remove the ton of salt that is
in the way. Dan Radcliffe and Stephen Fry were on TV moments ago.

Dan was there to present the cheque from the sales of FB and QTA (and two
other books also released to raise money) to Comic relief. From UK sales
alone the books have already raised over 2 million pounds. Stephen asked
about things on set and Dan said that he was really enjoying it and it was
good fun.

The cheque was written out in Galleons, Sickles and Knuts (about 450,000).
The kids on set have also raised some money by sacrificing things (wasn't
really explained, but SF asked if this meant they had been killing some of
the kids and Dan laughed the comment off). Dan seemed quite as ease being
on TV, but was on screen for less than a minute and he was there only to
present the cheque.



Simon (and some salt)




From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 20:29:59 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:29:59 -0000
Subject: Mugblood vs. Mudblood?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316131238.0530ce70@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <98tt47+7q31@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14495

B.K.:"Not only that but "Mug" is British slang for someone 
who "doesn't get it." How do we know Rowling didn't come up with 
Mugblood before "Muggle" ?"

Do the British editions use the word "Mugblood?" If they do, it makes 
more sense. The American editions use "Mudblood."  I wish I had the 
British editions.








From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar 16 20:36:56 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:36:56 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: killing voldemort/ dumbledore cold &   calculating?
References: <98sva8+tcps@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB27967.2060E80B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14496

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> To return to HP - I don't think there's any moral dilemma in Harry
> killing Voldy in some legitimate way (not via an Unforgivable curse).
> However, IMO it will resonate better with the books so far if Voldy
> will destroy himself through trying to destroy Harry. It ties in with
> Voldy's first encounter with Harry and provides closure. It also makes
> more sense technicaly, in that Voldy is so powerful, it's
> hard to see how anybody's powers but his own can harm him.

So, are you saying that only Harry *can* kill him, since Harry's and
Voldemort's powers/abilities are tied in some way? Originally through
some connection via the scar, and now more closely from the regeneration
spell? I've thought this might be the case.

--Amanda (some men are born to moral dilemmas, and some have moral
dilemmas thrust upon them)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 16 21:25:22 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:25:22 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mugblood vs. Mudblood?
In-Reply-To: <98tt47+7q31@eGroups.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316131238.0530ce70@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010316132217.00ba7d80@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14497

At 08:29 PM 3/16/01 +0000, Jim Ferer wrote:
>B.K.:"Not only that but "Mug" is British slang for someone
>who "doesn't get it." How do we know Rowling didn't come up with
>Mugblood before "Muggle" ?"

It used to be slang here in the States too, didn't it?  I can think of
at least two 1940's films in which it is used: _The Treasure of
Sierra Madre_ (Bogey to Tim Holt: "I can go twice as far as
a Mug like you.") and _The Lady Eve_ (Babs Stanwyk to
Henry Fonda: "Don't you know you're the only man I want,
you big Mug!")



                                                 -- Dave




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Fri Mar 16 21:25:47 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:25:47 -0000
Subject: Handwriting analysis(Was FB&WTFT)
Message-ID: <98u0cr+sr9a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14498

No spoilers for FB&WTFT!  I promise! 

B
U
T

J
U
S
T

I
N

C
A
S
E

I knew I had posted about handwriting analysis earlier!  Had to join 
the archive group to get it. But here it is, so amateur graphologists 
have at it!

I wrote:

Date: 7/27/00 2:31 pm  (ET)

Just as the 1st post regarding handwriting analysis hit here, I got my
Biography magazine and lo! and behold! There's an article on Bart 
Baggett(what an HP-type name, eh) who is a Handwriting analyst!

Here's what he says about certain handwriting traits.

Dots on lowercase i and j are close to the stem: attentive to details,
observant, good memory

M's and n's slant downward to the right: diplomatic and tactful

Flourish or wavy beginning strokes in word: good sense of humor

Lowercase t starts at top and curves down to the right without a 
beginning
upstroke: direct, don't like being slowed down by others

High ending stroke: crave recognition and like to be the center of
attention

T-bar crossed predominately on left side of stem: tendency to
procrastinate

Looped stems of lowercase t and d: the d means you're sensitive to
crticism about physical self while the t relates to your ideas

Second hump of m and n higher than 1st: self-conscious and worry what
strangers think

Lowercase p starts with a high beginning stroke, then breaks away from
stem: argumentative, enjoy debating

Leftward slant: introverted and seldom express emotions

Tight, closed or almost closed loop beginnig loop on uppercase 
letters:
Jealous, possessive and fear abandonment


Trina




 




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Fri Mar 16 21:50:25 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:50:25 -0000
Subject: Why didn't Harry get an award?
In-Reply-To: <009c01c0adfb$4e6f7de0$29f9e83f@rena>
Message-ID: <98u1r1+pfhh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14499

Someone (sorry, I'm not sure exactly who) posed this question:

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed but while I was
listening to CoS on the way into work this morning it struck me as
odd that Harry (and maybe Ron and Hermione too) ought to have been
given an award for stopping the heir of Slytherin and the  basilisk.
After all, 50 years previous, Tom Riddle was given an award for the
very same thing and HE sure didn't deserve it.
Any thoughts?

And then Rena replied:

I totally agree, Harry and Ron should have gotten the special services
to the school award as well. I just checked the CoS and they didn't
get anything. Off course setting Dobby free and "winning" against
Malfoy is considered a reward. :)



But they *did*! Saving the world of Hogwarts was just not enough 
reward!

Dumbledore said:

"You will both receive Special Awards for Services to the School and -
-let me see-- yes, I think two hundred points apece for Gryffindor."

CoS Ch. 18 p. 331, US ed.

Trina




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Fri Mar 16 22:34:22 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:34:22 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mugblood vs. Mudblood?
In-Reply-To: <98tt47+7q31@eGroups.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316131238.0530ce70@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316173209.05332160@pop.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14500

At 08:29 PM 03/16/2001 +0000, Jim Ferer wrote:
>Do the British editions use the word "Mugblood?" If they do, it makes
>more sense. The American editions use "Mudblood."  I wish I had the
>British editions.

Oi...do I feel silly. See, I'm an initiate via Jim Dale (who I think 
performs the books while Fry mearly reads enthusiastically ;] ) and it 
always sounded like he said "mugblood" - which I thought made sense: 
muggle, muggle-born, mugblood.

Doh!


--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 16 23:24:41 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:24:41 -0000
Subject: Mugblood vs. Mudblood?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010316173209.05332160@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <98u7bp+vlq4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14501

> Oi...do I feel silly. See, I'm an initiate via Jim Dale (who I think 
> performs the books while Fry mearly reads enthusiastically ;] ) and 
it 
> always sounded like he said "mugblood" - which I thought made sense: 
> muggle, muggle-born, mugblood.

Yeah, I wondered the same thing--I remember having to look in the 
books to see whether it was mug- or mud-.  There's something about his 
accent that adds g's--it happens a lot with words ending in "in," 
hence "Calling Creevey" and "Professor Looping."  Don't feel silly!

Liking Jim Dale anyway,
Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 His immediate reaction was that it would 
 be worth becoming a prefect just to be able 
 to use this bathroom.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 17 00:49:08 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 00:49:08 -0000
Subject: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles (rambly)
In-Reply-To: <98ta6e+6ovd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98uca4+euep@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14502

Anonymous wrote:
> Isn't it disappointing to find out that J.K.Rowling did not come up 
> with the idea of Harry Potter but <snip> she took the ideas from 
Stouffer? J.K. Rowling 
> is taking all the credit for characters she did not even 'make'!

Firstly I hope that whoever wrote that is being sarcastic, because 
it's certainly not true. Nancy Stouffer (which, if I'm pronouncing it 
correctly, sounds amusingly like Stuff Her) and JKR do have very 
minor elements of similarity in their books, but there's probably 
similarites between 'Great Expectations' and 'Heart Of Darkness' if 
you look hard enough! 

I completely agree that it's Stuff-Her ripping off our JK - if you 
want evidence, look at Stuff-Her's 'original' choice of author name 
which can be found all over her website, realmuggles.com: N. K. 
Stouffer. Gee... do two initials followed by the last name sound like 
they've been borrowed from another prominent writer whom Stuff-Her is 
closely associated to? Not that I'm saying JKR made up this 
convention, btw, but it's certainly becoming a lot more prominent.

As with the word Muggles, I think that Terry Pratchett summed it up 
in his Discworld books. I'm not sure which one it was, but it had 
Rincewind in it... it might have been Interesting Times. Anyway, 
Terry says something to the effect of: there's on so many syllables 
in our language. So unless Stuff-Her is claiming to have invented the 
syllables 'mug' and 'gle', she's just imagining things... althought 
she DID claim to have invented the word 'nimbus' a while back, didn't 
she?

Anyway, if you've read this far, you have an amazingly good attention 
span :)
--> Sam




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 01:58:16 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 01:58:16 -0000
Subject: Movie Characterization: Hannibal and Harry
Message-ID: <98ugbo+7hko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14503

Now I know that's a very strange title for this message but please 
read on. 

I saw Hannibal partly because my friends wanted too, but I actually 
found it interesting, if not just a bit too gory. Anyway I didn't 
read the book until AFTER I'd read the movie. That's not a usual 
situation with me, but in this case...

So I thought about it and (of course) enjoyed the book better. 
However I finally realised what made me like the book better. 
Characterization. In the movie I knew I was supposed to hate Paul 
Krendler, and Mason Verger, and Rinaldo Pazzi, but I didn't know WHY 
I was hating them. A movie can only be so long and often we don't get 
the chance to get inside the people's heads. (Though we do 
Krendler's, literally. *yuck!*)

So it hit me what I'm worried about in Harry Potter. What if they 
can't convey the Snape's bitterness, or the trio's friendship. If 
they paint these character's who we know so well as just black and 
white. I'd much rather see a special moment between the three of them 
than a Special Effects ridden Quidditch match (though I do love 
Quidditch!). 

A character's actions without the meaning behind them is meaningless, 
and that's my biggest worry about the upcoming Harry movie.

Scott 




From niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk  Sat Mar 17 03:28:15 2001
From: niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk (niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 03:28:15 -0000
Subject: red nose day
Message-ID: <98ulkf+qt7v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14504

Did anyone else see Stephen Fry on comic relief introducing Daniel R 
as the real Harry Potter, he asked him where his scar was and daniel 
replied that it was in the dressing room! Then Daniel presented a 
check for the sales so far of the comic relief books which is already 
on excess of ?2,000,000 and thats without the overseas sales which 
have yet too be added.
regards niamh




From wings909 at aol.com  Sat Mar 17 03:31:52 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:31:52 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] red nose day
Message-ID: <77.11a93208.27e434a8@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14505

In a message dated 03/16/2001 10:29:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
niamh at robo4.freeserve.co.uk writes:

<< Then Daniel presented a 
 check for the sales so far of the comic relief books which is already 
 on excess of ?2,000,000 and thats without the overseas sales which 
 have yet too be added. >>

Oh, Hooray!  I'm so glad the books are making tons of money!  Now how to 
conver that into galleons? ; )  I'd love to see some shots from that, do you 
think they'd have that on a website or something?  

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor (who wishes she could get back to London)

"What's a Wheezy?"
"Your Wheezy, sir, your Wheezy -- Wheezy who is giving Dobby his sweater!"
                                
                    --J.K Rowling Goblet of Fire



From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat Mar 17 03:36:29 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 03:36:29 -0000
Subject: red nose day
In-Reply-To: <98ulkf+qt7v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98um3t+6qd6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14506

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., niamh at r... wrote:
> Did anyone else see Stephen Fry on comic relief introducing Daniel 
R 
> as the real Harry Potter, he asked him where his scar was and 
daniel 
> replied that it was in the dressing room! Then Daniel presented a 
> check for the sales so far of the comic relief books which is 
already 
> on excess of ?2,000,000 and thats without the overseas sales which 
> have yet too be added.
> regards niamh

No, Niamh,

Unfortunately, I live in America, where we don't get that marvelous 
stuff.  The books have, however, made it on National Public Radio, 
where on Wednesday there was an interview with the organiser of Comic 
Relief/Red Nose Day & the estimates are that sales from the two books 
will raise an excess of 15 million dollars!!

Peace & Plenty,

Parker (who is *still* waiting for her books, dammit!)




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Mar 17 04:02:45 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 04:02:45 -0000
Subject: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles /congrats
In-Reply-To: <98uca4+euep@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98unl5+6te8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14507

Congratulations to this list, the founders, and the moderators.

You are known by your enemies.

I was fascinated to see this thread. Nancy Stouffer, or someone
close to her, actually joined our wonderful little list (okay,
so I'm a little outdated)....and tried to pick a fight!

Hope she or her minion has read a bunch and found out how
little credibility she has....

Susan




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Mar 17 05:03:47 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 05:03:47 -0000
Subject: Another Avada Kedavra Filk
Message-ID: <98ur7j+10ajg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14508

Avada Kedavra

Not to be confused with Pippin's recent A.K. filk to Hakuna Matata

(To the tune of Macarena ? but more immediately inspired by 
Macademia, from the Animaniacs Episode #92)

(An MTV Studio. Enter LORD VOLDEMORT, WORMTAIL, LUCIUS AND DRACO 
MALFOY. One of the Death-Eaters  - we name no names - suggested to 
VOLDEMORT that a dance video might be an effective fund-raiser in his 
upcoming battle against the Hogwarts and the Ministry)

VOLDEMORT (casting a Kedavra spell on one of the technicians), OK, so 
I am trying to reduce you (high, cold laughter)

VOLDEMORT (music)
It's just a simple curse, the Avada Kedavra
A little thing I do to stop people when they bother ya

WORMTAIL, LUCIUS & DRACO
It's dramatic!
So emphatic!
Each time we use it we feel ecstatic!

VOLDEMORT
So if you bug me, or even come near me
You will get the green light, do you hear me? 

WORMTAIL, LUCIUS & DRACO
Voldy's favorite spell is the Avada Kedav-er-a
That's the hex he used he finish off his father-a
Next on his list is that gringo Harry Potter-a

ALL
Avada Kedavra! Uh!

VOLDEMORT
I first learned to use it while I was still Tom Rid-da-la
They always told me that to use it's unforgi-va-ba

WORMTAIL, LUCIUS & DRACO
Ex ungue leonem*, he's no bleeding heart li-be-ra

ALL
Avada Kedavra! Uh!

VOLDEMORT
Now, please don't mention what happened
When I was dueling with Potter
I would have had him

ALL
How we hate him
That darn Priori Incantatem!

VOLDEMORT (spoken) 
Now come on, how was I to expect that?
A feather from the *same* phoenix in *both* wands? (High, cold 
laughter)

VOLDEMORT AND WORMTAIL (music)
For the last 13 years I've/he's been stuck in deep Albania
I've/He's risen from the tomb like that Count from Transylvania
Now at long last I/he can indulge my/his meglomania

ALL
My/his meglomania! Uh!

VOLDEMORT & LUCIUS
The next thing we'll do is reforge some old alliances
With Dementors and giants who are into the Dark Sciences
Our casus belli** will show them what defiance is
With Dark Arts appliances! Yes!

VOLDEMORT
Me llama el wizard whose moniker is Voldemort
But you can just call me the names you've often used before

WORMTAIL, LUCIUS & DRACO
The Dark Lord
or You-Know-Who
He-Who's-Un-Named
When he's before you

VOLDEMORT
But call me Tom Riddle, there will no question
That you'll provoke mucho grande aggression 

ALL
Ked, Ked Ked Ked Ked Kedavra 
Ked, Ked Ked Ked Ked Kedavra
Ked, Ked Ked Ked Ked Kedavra
Avada Kedravra! Oh!
Ked, Ked Ked Ked Ked Kedavra
Ked, Ked Ked Ked Ked Kedavra
Ked, Ked Ked Ked Ked Kedavra
Avada Kedravra
Curse!

(VOLDEMORT locates the Death-Eater who came up with this idiotic 
project, and strikes him dead)

      -	CMC

*By the claw you know the lion
**Cause of war





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 17 05:29:02 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 05:29:02 -0000
Subject: Another Avada Kedavra Filk
In-Reply-To: <98ur7j+10ajg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98usmu+cepd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14509

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Avada Kedavra
> 
> Not to be confused with Pippin's recent A.K. filk to Hakuna Matata
> 
> (To the tune of Macarena ? but more immediately inspired by 
> Macademia, from the Animaniacs Episode #92)

I'm still smiling :)


> VOLDEMORT & LUCIUS
> The next thing we'll do is reforge some old alliances
> With Dementors and giants who are into the Dark Sciences
> Our casus belli** will show them what defiance is
> With Dark Arts appliances! Yes!

Is this a comment on the what's the difference between magic and 
technology thread? ;-)
Pippin





From junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 17 06:58:43 2001
From: junkjunkjunk2000 at hotmail.com (~*Vicki Granger*~)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 17:58:43 +1100
Subject: Hogwarts/Godric's Hollow Location
Message-ID: <F13rRjbDt3HvoFOAmEa00001fff@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14510

One weekend a young girl was incredibly bored so she got out her Harry 
Potter books and decided to find out where places mentioned in these books 
actually were. These are her findings...

HOGWARTS: In Chamber of Secrets Harry and Ron miss the Hogwarts Express and 
therefore decide that they'll steal Ron's Dad's car and FLY to Hogwarts, 
when they get there they meet a VERY angry Snape who tells them about the 
article in the Evening Prophet... One place mentioned was the town of 
Peebles. I looked this up in my atlas and it is very much in Scotland. Also 
the train heads north (we know from compass readings in the car). I believe 
that since there is no mention of the train going around/over a large body 
of water that Hogwarts must be near Edinburgh. This would also make sence 
because JKR was Edinburgh based...

GODRIC'S HOLLOW: Hagrid mentions that baby Harry falls asleep over Bristol. 
It's also known from the adress on the Hogwarts letter that the Dursleys 
live in Surrey... Assuming that Hagrid travelled in a fairly straight line 
it's only possible that Godric's Hollow must be somewhere in south Wales... 
My personal fave area is 'Gwent' and 'Glam' (south and main) because this 
would give baby Harry enough time to settle down by Bristol but wouldn't 
have him awake for ages...

About no characters imediatley giving the impression of being Scottish... 
Can you say McGonagall?

========

~*Vicki Granger*~
FanFiction.Net Author
Hermione Granger in Harry_Potter_RPG2
113% Obsessed with Harry Potter
~*~MeMbEr Of EvIl ClUb~*~
:>(*)<: Reserve Seeker :>(*)<:
Proud Ravenclaw
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Mar 17 06:46:43 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 06:46:43 -0000
Subject: Sprout and Flitwick press their noses against the glass...
Message-ID: <02b301c0aeae$1d7abf20$6e3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 14511

I've been re-reading GoF and I'm at the point where Harry's name comes out of the goblet.  Once he has made his way into the designated room, a group of 'main cast' adults enters, including Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape, Karkaroff, Maxime, Crouch and then Bagman.  These are, obviously, the judges of the Triwizard Tournament plus McGonagall and Snape.  McGonagall I can understand, as she is Deputy Headmistress and Head of Harry's House, but why Snape and, more to the point, why not Sprout?  Professor Sprout is, after all, Cedric Diggory's Head of House; surely she would have bustled back there with the others, rolling up her metaphorical sleeves, at least mildly miffed that Harry's name had come out of the goblet and potentially stymied her champion?  Later she is noted as being seeming a bit 'off' with Harry, but that just makes it even more odd that she didn't join the others in that room.  

There are two things that bug me in general.  The first is that Sprout and Flitwick do not seem to have equal status to McGonagall and Snape in inter-House matters; despite the fact that the focus is on Gryffindor and Slytherin, this imbalance really upsets my biorhythms.  It's probably no coincidence that JKR gave Sprout the name of a hugely unpopular vegetable.  How many children have screamed their lungs dry in a peevish tantrum rather than eat the delicious sprouts set before them?  Perhaps Professor Sprout is even of Belgian extraction (Brussels Sprout - geddit).  Flitwick, on the other hand, is physically small - the personification of a small part - and flits in and out of the story.

The second thing on my mind is that McGonagall and Snape seem to be some sort of enforcer double act (as I said recently, like a devil and angel on each of Dumbledore's shoulders).  I don't think they are married, BTW, but we've noted before that Snape appears to have a similar level of seniority to McGonagall.  Is he Deputy Deputy Headmaster or does he hold some other office that gives him cause to behave like next in line to the throne?  Is there some other reason (other than the obvious one - that they are two major characters) that McGonagall and Snape are always at the forefront in any hubbub?  Equally, aren't Flitwick and Sprout long overdue some character development?

I don't know why I am suddenly thinking about inter-House dynamics.  Perhaps there is more to all this than the simple fact that two of the characters have main roles and two don't.  Perhaps, if Sprout and Flitwick had greater presence they would make more of an impact on Harry's POV.

Oh yeah - Dumbledore dances with Sprout at the Yule Ball, which loosely translates as: "they are head-over-heels in love with each other and bonded together, immovably, as a mating pair".  Er... that is how this shipping thing works, right?   I believe the Du/Sp tugboat is officially launched...

Neil

...shortly flying off to New York for a week.  Wave at the Mechanimagus as he flies over your house and vanishes into the clouds.  

________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, 
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint 
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything 
to do with this club:

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 07:26:39 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 07:26:39 -0000
Subject: Sprout and Flitwick press their noses against the glass...
In-Reply-To: <02b301c0aeae$1d7abf20$6e3570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <98v3jf+8j65@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14512

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:


> The second thing on my mind is that McGonagall and Snape seem to be 
some sort of enforcer double act (as I said recently, like a devil 
and angel on each of Dumbledore's shoulders).  I don't think they are 
married, BTW, but we've noted before that Snape appears to have a 
similar level of seniority to McGonagall.  Is he Deputy Deputy 
Headmaster or does he hold some other office that gives him cause to 
behave like next in line to the throne?  

I think he just follows along because he has experience in this sort 
of thing (you know, crises and disruptions) as a former death eater. 
Plus, most schools do have teacher who handles most of the 
discipline/nasty stuff. On the other hand, there is of course the 
Harry Viewpoint theory; Harry just doesn't see the other behind the 
scenes routine action. 

Is there some other reason (other than the obvious one - that they 
are two major characters) that McGonagall and Snape are always at the 
forefront in any hubbub?  Equally, aren't Flitwick and Sprout long 
overdue some character development?
> 

Does there need to be one? I think that Sprout gets slightly more 
pagetime that Flitwick, because of Cedric. But you forget my 
favorite, the elusive Professor Sinistra. :)

Charmian




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Mar 17 07:48:29 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 07:48:29 -0000
Subject: Ethnicity (was Hogwarts Location)/+wizard transport options/+parallel world theory 
References: <98t7uq+sk8g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <02c401c0aeb6$bd8a1d00$6e3570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 14513

Amy Z said:

<<Jim Dale chose to give Seamus an Irish accent but the Patils English ones,
not Indian.  That may reflect nothing more than his relative  talent at
different accents.  I'm quite sure it was up to him, not  something he ran
by JKR.>>

An Irish accent for Seamus is not surprising, but I think it is unlikely
that the Patils would have Indian accents.  If, as Rebecca (?) suggests (and
I agree) they are third generation Asians, they would speak with English
accents.  Having said that, the Asian community over here retains its own
culture and traditions and it is possible to detect Indian tinges in the
speech of some younger Anglo-Asians; presumably a side effect of
bilinguality in the home.  I can think of two Asian people I know (both
younger than me) who cannot pronounced the letter 'V'.

***

This whole topic of student ethnicity has got me wondering about the
transport students take to get to Hogwarts.  If there are students from
Scotland, which there must be (incidentally, not all Scots are called Hamish
Macdonald and Morag McTavish, so names tell us nothing, really), I doubt
they would gather at King's Cross to take the Hogwarts Express (HE) all the
way back up to Scotland.  I guess they would get to the castle by other
means.  Can anyone recall, are any children described as joining the HE en
route? Does it make any stops to pick people up?  Is the focus on the HE
because that's the closest mean of transport to Little Whinging and we are
seeing everything from Harry's POV?  Are there other trains converging on
Hogwarts?  I get the impression that the HE is very special and probably
unique.

I'm also formulating in my head an image of the magical world covering an
alternative plane, but complementary to the Muggle world, rather than the
two working alongside each other.  In my mind, the map of the magical world
is more sparse; its features are dotted around the map, but with huge spaces
in between, which are, in the Muggle world, completely full.  Landmarks such
as Hogwarts, Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade are among the few named places on
the wizarding map and would appear as "holes" on the Muggle map (not actual
holes, but areas that somehow had nothing of note, for no apparent reason)

I see the track which takes the Hogwarts Express from King's Cross to
Hogwarts as the only transport route marked.  Older witches and wizards can
apparate and use brooms for travel, so there is no need for a network of
roads and tracks in the wizarding plane.  Although I see these two planes
one on top of the other, I don't think things can exist in the same space
(but bear in mind that some things could be below others - e.g. Gringotts).

So, what am I saying?  That wizarding locations are, somehow, in the
interstices of the Muggle world, and that the patterns of the two
communities fit together like the pieces of a puzzle.  Also, I think I'm
saying that the two worlds' planes are not flat, but complex, like the
pieces of one of those annoying wooden cubes that I can never get back
together once I've dismantled.  This would allow some areas to be in close
proximity and others to be quite far apart (and those would be the most
hidden from each other).

Neil

... suddenly getting verbose and going off at tangents.... oooh a
'tangential plane' - perhaps that's the phrase I'm after?
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm














From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 17 10:42:43 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:42:43 -0000
Subject: Snape's status, Sprout and Flitwick
In-Reply-To: <02b301c0aeae$1d7abf20$6e3570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <98vf33+oa1c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14514

Neil wrote:

> There are two things that bug me in general.  The first is that 
Sprout and Flitwick do not seem to have equal status to McGonagall and 
Snape in inter-House matters; despite the fact that the focus is on 
Gryffindor and Slytherin, this imbalance really upsets my 
biorhythms.<snip>
> 
> The second thing on my mind is that McGonagall and Snape seem to be 
>some sort of enforcer double act (as I said recently, like a devil 
>and 
>angel on each of Dumbledore's shoulders).  I don't think they are 
>married, BTW, but we've noted before that Snape appears to have a 
>similar level of seniority to McGonagall.  Is he Deputy Deputy 
>Headmaster or does he hold some other office that gives him cause to 
>behave like next in line to the throne?  Is there some other reason 
>(other than the obvious one - that they are two major characters) 
>that 
>McGonagall and Snape are always at the forefront in any hubbub?  

We could explain Snape's presence/Sprout's absence in the Goblet 
argument by saying it's not really true; they were both there and we 
only see Snape b/c it's who Harry focuses on.

However, I'll go with the idea that Snape came in, along with the more 
obvious choice McGonagall (Dumbledore's deputy and the Student in 
Question's Head of House), solely to give Harry hell.  So, back in the 
Great Hall, a bunch of people started to get up, including Snape and 
the outraged Sprout.  Dumbledore told the latter to please stay in the 
Hall and she was displeased but stayed.  Snape didn't give him a 
chance.  He intends to be where the action is, namely Harry action, 
whether or not he has an official role.  I thought of this as MM got 
so angry at him, and imagined her biting her tongue to keep from 
saying, "And just what are you doing in here, anyway, Severus?"

I think JKR ups Snape's status throughout GF because she needs to 
establish his shift to Powerful Good Guy.  Formerly, he got lots of 
attention, but almost entirely via ways that Harry would naturally 
encounter him: class, the occasional corridor run-in; it wasn't 
anything that would make us think "hmm, is he Deputy Deputy Head?"  
Now we have this Goblet-argument scene, which sets the stage for 
another, more sympathetic pairing of McGonagall and Snape at the end 
of the book.  The latter pairing starts to put them on equal footing 
in Harry's eyes (equal not just in power but in goodness), especially 
with little touches like Snape's glare from the Foe-Glass and his 
support of McGonagall against Fudge; Harry's starting to see Snape as 
an ally, and so are we.

BTW, I think Sprout is named for everything green and growing, not 
those nasty little balls of cabbage that only Hermione seems to like. 
 Though I do picture her looking something like a Brussels sprout with 
limbs: very short and as wide as she is tall.

>Equally, aren't Flitwick and Sprout long overdue some character 
>development?

No doubt.  Rumor has it that the working title of #6 is Harry Potter 
and the Obscurer Professors.  Sinistra fans, your day will come!

I hope your biorhythms return to balance soon.  Try Gatorade, which is 
also useful for flushing the radiator (a good idea before your 
transatlantic flight in any case).

Amy Z

AD/MM ship, anyone?:
-----------------------------------------------------
   "Dumbledore, you know what that woman is?"
   "I consider her to be a very able Headmistress--
 and an excellent dancer," said Dumbledore quietly.
                       -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------------------




From jferer at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 11:47:27 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:47:27 -0000
Subject: Ethnicity & Parallel Worlds [Reply Neil]
In-Reply-To: <02c401c0aeb6$bd8a1d00$6e3570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <98visf+jg59@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14515

Neil:" Having said that, the Asian community over here retains 
its own culture and traditions and it is possible to detect Indian 
tinges in the speech of some younger Anglo-Asians; presumably a side 
effect of bilinguality in the home.  I can think of two Asian people I 
know (both younger than me) who cannot pronounced the letter 'V'."

There are good parallels to this in th US. The best example I can 
think of offhand is what I refer to as the "Chinese-American" accent. 
I would have a hard time describing it to you (Jeralyn is the one to 
comment on it, I guess), but it's there. One of my colleagues, raised 
in Chinatown by parents who spoke little English, has it. His English 
is completely native American, but the accent is still there. It seems 
to be a matter of pitch emphasis more than pronunciation. (An 
interesting side note: like other Chinese Americans, his name has a 
foot in both worlds. His name is Eric Chi Chan. Whether he's 'Eric' or 
'Chi' depends on which world he's in at the moment. 

Of course, there's many other ethnic accents here, and members of 
these groups have these accents to a greater or lesser degree than 
others.

Neil:"I'm also formulating in my head an image of the magical world 
covering an alternative plane, but complementary to the Muggle world, 
rather than the two working alongside each other.  In my mind, the map 
of the magical world is more sparse; its features are dotted around 
the map, but with huge spaces in between, which are, in the Muggle 
world, completely full."

In parallel-universe SF, which some of think Harry is, this has been 
likened to a pot of boiling soup; we're all in it, but some of us are 
on bits of carrot and some of us are on potatoes. Little bits sink and 
rise to different planes all the time.   

It seems counterintuitive to think that northern students would go to 
London to take the HE, unless it's the only gateway to the Hogwarts 
plane available to students (IOW, the spoon that dips in to the soup 
and brings the Hogwarts and Muggle bits together for the students). 
There's no evidence for it, except that the train ride seems to be 
such a common experience.

Of course, this leaves the question whether the Universe is a chowder, 
a bisque, or a good English stew....

Jim (struggling from under a cracker)




From my_email_1 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 13:07:26 2001
From: my_email_1 at yahoo.com (my_email_1 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:07:26 -0000
Subject: From the Person who posted: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles 
Message-ID: <98vnie+vg2i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14516

I would like to make it crystal clear that I am not related to 
Stouffer in any way whatsoever and simple heard of this group from a 
friend and thought I should post my opinion.

I am a huge Harry Potter fan and was extremely disappointed to hear 
that J.K. Rowling has copied things from another author.

Yes, it is true that she has changed the story and made it a lot more 
interesting, but still, she did not come up with the 'main' idea. It 
doesn't matter that it is not illegal, but what I'm saying is that 
when writers write books, they should use their own BRAINS and NOT 
someone elses!!

P.S. I STILL THINK THAT J.K. IS THE BEST AUTHOR IN THE WORLD AND THAT 
HARRY POTTER IS THE BEST BOOK EVER!!




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Sat Mar 17 13:22:05 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:22:05 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] From the Person who posted: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles 
In-Reply-To: <98vnie+vg2i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEBPDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 14517

My_email_1 wrote: "I am a huge Harry Potter fan and was extremely
disappointed to hear that J.K. Rowling has copied things from another
author.

Yes, it is true that she has changed the story and made it a lot more
interesting, but still, she did not come up with the 'main' idea. It
doesn't matter that it is not illegal, but what I'm saying is that when
writers write books, they should use their own BRAINS and NOT someone
elses!!"

It would be interesting to know how you think this copying happened. By the
admission of the author of The Legend of Rah and the Muggles her books were
only published in the US and at that I believe I am correct in saying only
in one US state.

Jo Rowling is a British author, who until recently had never visited the
US. How, if she did copy (something I do not believe), did she get hold of
a set of books that had been out of print for 5 years when she started to
write PS at the beginning of the 90's? It seems very unlikely, to me at
least, that a copy of these books ever made it to the UK or Portugal
(where, IIRC, Jo was living in the late 80's).

They have definitely never been properly published in the UK (yes I have
checked, I have access to all books ever published in the UK and a
catalogue indexing them), and they have never made it to the Library of
Congress (?) in the US. Members of this group have before now tried to
obtain copies, but have never managed.


There are similarities, but it is possible to find similarities between
many books. Harry is one of the most popular boys names in the UK (and has
been for quite a while). Larry seems to be a fairly common US boy's name.
Potter is a common British surname.
Muggles, as a word, has appeared in many different places and is used to
mean something totally different in the two sets of books.


I could go on with the comments about the alleged infringements, but the
similarities mentioned are common to numerous books I have read.

$20 dollars for a copy of her book? Forgive me while I collapse in
laughter.


Simon




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 13:57:24 2001
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 05:57:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: in defense of sirius black (Long, Rambly)
In-Reply-To: <98su9h+jsn1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010317135724.8057.qmail@web214.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14518

--- monika at darwin.inka.de wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a...
> wrote:
> 
> > You can't even spend 12 years in such a place,
> starting when you're 
> > 21, and end up unscarred and permanently changed. 
> 
> Of course not, you are absolutely right here. 

This, of course, applies not just to Azkaban but to
any prison.
>  
> > I don't know if any of you have ever spoken to
> someone who was sent 
> > to prison at 21 (which is, as we extrapolate now,
> the age Sirius 
> was 
> > when we went to Azkaban). I have, when I was in
> law school. 
> 
> No, I haven't, and your comment is really
> interesting, because it
> confirms what I had suspected but didn't have any
> proof for. And I 
> always thought that Sirius was a few years older
> when he went to
> Azkaban, but if he was only 21 he literally hasn't
> had any "adult"
> life yet in PoA.
> 
I do know someone who spent 13 1/2 years in prison
(I'm married to him), and he went in at the age of 20.
BTW, I did recall that Sirius was that young when he
went to Azkaban.

> > You lose 
> > the ability to age and grow - or at least, it
> becomes completely 
> > twisted onto itself. 
> 
> I think this would be even more true for Azkaban. It
> strikes me as a
> place where any human life and feeling is suppressed
> by the presence
> of the dementors, and the prisoners in there are
> barley alive, they
> exist in a physical way, but they deteriorate
> mentally.
> 
This is very true. If you are treated like less than a
human being for an extended period of time it does
have a profound effect on you. Besides missing out on
life experiences that help shape who you are, you also
lose large parts of who you were before you went in.
In learning to adapt to such an environment, you
sometimes learn to suppress the good parts of yourself
in order to survive. I can only imagine how difficult
Azkaban would in comparison to one of our prisons.
Imagine being in constant solitary confinement (anyone
see Murder in the First and recall the effects
solitary had on that prisoner?). Then add to this the
constant presence of the Dementors.

On the other hand, progress can be made in leaps and
bounds upon the prisoner's release, though this is not
always the case. Sometimes just learning to cope with
the freedom of being able to make your own choices in
everything is traumatic in itself. I could go on and
on, but let me just finish by saying that I am amazed
by how Sirius manages to be the caring, loyal person
he is by GoF. He might certainly be considered the
exception to the rule for prisoners emerging from our
system, and we certainly have no precedent for judging
the effects of long term incarceration and release
from Azkaban.

Okay, I think I'm starting to ramble, but I just
couldn't let such a great thread about Sirius go by
without throwing in my 2 cents (considering how 'dead
sexy' he is <g>).

Sheryll 
 



=====
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Mar 17 13:26:46 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:26:46 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] From the Person who posted: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles 
References: <98vnie+vg2i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c0aee5$eaa37aa0$563770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 14519

"my_email_1" (and your name is?) said:

> I would like to make it crystal clear that I am not related to
> Stouffer in any way whatsoever and simple heard of this group from a
> friend and thought I should post my opinion.

It's interesting that someone who claims to be a "huge Harry Potter fan" can
make a daft statement like: "HARRY POTTER IS THE BEST BOOK EVER!!"  JK
Rowling has already written four Harry Potter books in a series of seven -
it isn't a solitary book.  Apart from that, which suggests that you are far
from being a fan of JK Rowling's work, you are entitled to your opinion.
However, I suggest you look again at the claims being made by Nancy
Stouffer.

Could you explain what you mean by the 'main' idea?  I can't see any
parallel that would fit with JK Rowling having lifted a 'main' idea from
Stouffer's book, as detailed by Stouffer herself (we can't locate a copy of
Stouffer's rare masterpiece - if you have one, perhaps you'd let us have a
look at it?).  The word Muggle, for example, has appeared in other works,
with different meanings, and IIRC, it was a word in English usage in the
past.  JK Rowling is noted for collecting old and disused words and using
them in her writing.  It seems to me that Nancy Stouffer happened to
'create' that word, and has concluded that no one else could possibly have
come across it anywhere but in her discontinued, limited circulation book.
There are a handful of other mild coincidences, but, IMO, Stouffer's case is
paper thin at best.

BTW, I'm rather glad JK Rowling didn't use N "K" Stouffer's BRAINS to write
her books.  I think she used a pen.

Neil

________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm





From hamster8 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 17 14:19:43 2001
From: hamster8 at hotmail.com (hamster8 at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:19:43 -0000
Subject: From the Person who posted: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEBPDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <98vrpv+eeov@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14520

Simon said ...

"It would be interesting to know how you think this copying happened. 
By the admission of the author of The Legend of Rah and the Muggles 
her books were only published in the US and at that I believe I am 
correct in saying only in one US state.

They have definitely never been properly published in the UK (yes I 
have checked, I have access to all books ever published in the UK and 
a catalogue indexing them), and they have never made it to the 
Library of Congress (?) in the US. Members of this group have before 
now tried to obtain copies, but have never managed.

There are similarities, but it is possible to find similarities 
between many books. Harry is one of the most popular boys names in 
the UK (and has been for quite a while). Larry seems to be a fairly 
common US boy's name.  Potter is a common British surname.
Muggles, as a word, has appeared in many different places and is used 
to mean something totally different in the two sets of books."

To which Al decides to add ... now I may well be wrong, but doesn't 
US law require a copy of every single book published in the States to 
be lodged with the Library of Congress?  I was under the impression 
that it was roughly the same system that gets a book put in the 
British Library, and three others, Trinity College, Dublin is one of 
them, Oxford is one, obviously, else Simon wouldn't have access to it 
(I assume) and I think Cambridge do the same.  So surely the Library 
of Congress *must* have a copy.  Can any List-Americans help out here?

I have never seen or read Stouffer's book myself, but as far as I'm 
concerned, this is fairly old news, right?  Didn't the lawsuit get 
thrown out or something?  I believe you can buy copies, or at least 
find information on where to get them on Stouffer's website, and 
there's a link to that over at the UHPFC (at least, there was the 
last time I was in that neighbourhood) ... of course, being fairly 
new around these parts, and only very occasionally de-lurking *waves 
at all the people who didn't know I was on this list* I may be 
echoing stuff that's been said before.

Harry, incidentally, is only popular right now because of the books.  
It made it into our top ten in the UK this year, but last year was at 
something like 20, and before that hadn't risen above 40 for at least 
30-40 years - last being popular in the 60's.

As far as I'm concerned it was only ever a paper thin attempt to get 
on the HP bandwagon.  Authors copy each other unwillingly and 
unknowingly all the time - the plot of a story I wrote when I was 
eight surfaced in a kid's book by no less than Anthea Turner some 
years later ... so as it's her, maybe I should sue.  Hmm.

Thanks for hearing me out!
*Al saunters vaguely westwards*




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Mar 17 14:33:10 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 08:33:10 -0600
Subject: From the Person who posted: J.K.Rowling & The Legendof Rah and the Muggles
References: <98vnie+vg2i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB375A6.DD8079C0@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14521

Hi --

my_email_1 at yahoo.com wrote:

> Yes, it is true that she has changed the story and made it a lot more
> interesting, but still, she did not come up with the 'main' idea.

Like Neil, I'll say that it doesn't sound to me as though you've read
the works of *either* of these authors if you think the "main idea"
(thesis/themes) of J.K. Rowling's works was lifted from Stouffer's
work(s).  A simple perusal of realmuggles.com (Stouffer's site) or the
complaint & pleadings she filed in her groundless lawsuits would tell
you that the similarities are superficial at best.  JKR has created an
entire wizarding universe.  Forgive me if I've misunderstood, but from
the complaint & pleadings in her lawsuit, I don't have the impression
that Stouffer's work(s) have anything at all to do with wizards.  BTW,
reading the lawsuit pleadings (or Stouffer's site) seems to be the only
way to really get any sense of Stouffer's works since they are
*out-of-print* (i.e., they didn't *sell*), and were never circulated in
anything other than a second-rate drug store in selected states in the
Northeastern US for a limited period of time.  The plots of these works
are so completely different that it's insane to think you can make any
valid comparisons.  As others have pointed out, Stouffer didn't come up
with the word "muggles" (neither did JKR).

If Stouffer had such valid claims, why did she wait until Feb 2000 to
file a trademark application?  Why were her works never registered with
the Copyright Office?  Why were copies never sent to the Library of
Congress?  Why does WorldCat have no listings for her or her works (that
is, not a single solitary public library in the US has a copy of any of
them)?

I'm afraid the US court system disagrees with your opinion, my_email_1.
They've already dismissed large chunks of her claims, and since the case
has been moved to the federal court for the southern (?) district of NY,
it stands to reason that the rest of her lawsuit will be similarly
thrown out as meritless.  Personally, I hope her attorneys are subjected
to Rule 11 sanctions for bringing such a meritless lawsuit in the first
place.

> P.S. I STILL THINK THAT J.K. IS THE BEST AUTHOR IN THE WORLD AND THAT
> HARRY POTTER IS THE BEST BOOK EVER!!

Hmmm .... like Neil, I've got to wonder if you realize that there are 4
Harry Potter books.  And, if you really do have the above sentiment, you
have a very strange way of showing it!

BTW, feel free to express your opinions on this group, but please be
sure you've read our Netiquette files.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sat Mar 17 15:20:01 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:20:01 -0000
Subject: From the Person who posted: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <98vnie+vg2i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <98vvb1+7mn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14522

 Hey - I feel as though you are sucking the happiness out of this site 
and filling me with sad and dreary thoughts *pulls out wand*, so I 
have forced to conjure a Patronus to force you away from me and all 
the other true and faithful Harry Potter fans!

--Jenny from Ravenclaw  :-D

"Expecto Patronu




From bkdelong at pobox.com  Sat Mar 17 15:37:02 2001
From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:37:02 -0500
Subject: Nancy Stouffer vs. J.K. Rowling - document
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010317103519.0529fec0@pop.ma.ultranet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14523

Hi all -

HogwartsWire had a copy of this on their site but as of this morning it 
looks like it's been taken offline completely by Tripod.

Therefore, I have posted a copy here:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/stouffercomplaint/

I'll take some time this weekend (when I'm not laughing uproariously at it) 
to analyze Stouffer's claims. It's just unbelievable.

Pass around the URL.

--
B.K. DeLong
bkdelong at pobox.com
617.877.3271

http://www.brain-stream.com               Play.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org        Potter.
http://www.attrition.org                       Security.
http://www.zotgroup.com                    Work.





From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 16:41:21 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:41:21 -0000
Subject: From the Person who posted: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINMEBPDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <99043h+824c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14524



> Yes, it is true that she has changed the story and made it a lot 
more
> interesting, but still, she did not come up with the 'main' idea. 


I hate to say this dear, but claiming that Rowling "stole" the main 
idea does not make it true. I have yet to see ANY significant 
similarity between the two books-- while we are at it, ANY similarity 
at all that ahs anything to do with the story. So far the only thing 
claimed by Stouffer have been the use of a a word which is in the 
dictionary (to which the authors have totally separate meanings), and 
common plot devices used in fairy tales (castles, etc.) We are not 
just talking about copyright law here-- we are talking about common 
sense.

The plots of the two books have NOTHING in common. Stouffer is not 
writing about witches and wizards or anything remotely related to 
Rowlings books.

So where are you getting this "Yes, it is true...?" 




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Mar 17 18:25:07 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:25:07 -0800
Subject: Sinistra (was: [HPforGrownups] Snape's status, Sprout and Flitwick)
In-Reply-To: <98vf33+oa1c@eGroups.com>
References: <02b301c0aeae$1d7abf20$6e3570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010317101750.00d3acd0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14525

At 10:42 AM 3/17/01 +0000, Amy Z wrote:
>Sinistra fans, your day will come!

And once and for all, we'll know what his/her gender really is!

BTW, my guess is that Sinistra will be omitted from the movie
altogether, but if (s)he does make a cameo appearence, I think
(s)he should be played by either British astronomy popularizer
Patrick Moore (if male) or Italian-American astronomy
popularizer ( and half-Veela ;) ) Fiorella Terenzi (if female).

                            -- Dave, a Sinistra fan





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Mar 17 18:28:41 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:28:41 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sprout and Flitwick press their noses against the glass...
In-Reply-To: <02b301c0aeae$1d7abf20$6e3570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010317102750.00bd7b80@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14526

At 06:46 AM 3/17/01 +0000, Neil Ward wrote:
>Oh yeah - Dumbledore dances with Sprout at the Yule Ball, which loosely 
>translates as: "they are head-over-heels in love with each other and 
>bonded together, immovably, as a mating pair".  Er... that is how this 
>shipping thing works, right?   I believe the Du/Sp tugboat is officially 
>launched...

Not for those of us who think it's far more significant that Madame Pomfrey 
thinks
Dumbledore looks good in mittens.  :)



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Mar 17 18:31:11 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:31:11 -0800
Subject: "Harry, I am your *Uncle*"?? (was: [HPforGrownups] Severus Snape=Perseus Evans?)
In-Reply-To: <200103161654.IAA01166@albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010317102907.00d3a650@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14527

At 11:53 AM 3/16/01 -0500, Gail Shivel wrote:
>I cannot be the only reader to have noticed that "Severus Snape" rearranged
>is "Perseus Evans." We already know that Rowling likes to do this sort of
>thing.

What??  You mean my "Snape is Lily's bro" theory LIVES??

(So Snape is really a Greek hero instead of a Roman despot?)



                                                 -- Dave




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Mar 17 19:05:00 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:05:00 -0000
Subject: Ethnicity (was Hogwarts Location)/+wizard transport options/+parallel world theory
In-Reply-To: <02c401c0aeb6$bd8a1d00$6e3570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <990cgs+sd0n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14528

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> This whole topic of student ethnicity has got me wondering about the
> transport students take to get to Hogwarts.  If there are students 
from
> Scotland, which there must be (incidentally, not all Scots are 
called Hamish
> Macdonald and Morag McTavish, so names tell us nothing, really), I 
doubt
> they would gather at King's Cross to take the Hogwarts Express (HE) 
all the
> way back up to Scotland.  I guess they would get to the castle by 
other
> means.  Can anyone recall, are any children described as joining 
the HE en
> route? Does it make any stops to pick people up?  Is the focus on 
the HE
> because that's the closest mean of transport to Little Whinging and 
we are
> seeing everything from Harry's POV?  Are there other trains 
converging on
> Hogwarts?  I get the impression that the HE is very special and 
probably
> unique.
> 

I have the impression that the HE does not stop between Platform 9 
3/4 and Hogsmeade station.  Anyway, there would not be any room for 
additional passengers; in both PS/SS and PoA Harry gets on the train 
so late that he has to sit in the last remaining empty compartment.

I see 2 possibilities:

1) The Hogwarts Express leaves from Platform 9 3/4, which is not 
necessarily in London.  The gateway to/from Platform 9 3/4 leads to 
whichever train station is closest to where you live -- London, 
Dublin, Edinburgh, Belfast, Liverpool, etc.  The problem with this 
theory is that the train journey does seem to take all day; about the 
right amount of time for a train journey from London to north 
Scotland, I believe.  And also if you could magically connect a train 
station in, say, Dublin, with a train station somewhere in England, 
why not just connect it directly to Hogsmeade?

2) There is more than one Hogwarts Express, they all converge on 
Hogsmeade station at about the same time.  There is nothing in the 
books to suggest that all 300 (or 500 or 1000) students are on the 
same train that Harry is on.  There is no evidence in the books to 
contradict the existence of more than one train, so I think this is 
the more likely explanation.

Of course, the most likely explanation is that JKR just didnt think 
about it, but personally I reject all explanations that might 
indicate that the HP books are works of fiction.


      ^
     / \
    /   \     Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, introducing her new signature
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*






From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat Mar 17 19:18:21 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:18:21 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nancy Stouffer vs. J.K. Rowling 
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010317103519.0529fec0@pop.ma.ultranet.com>
Message-ID: <053701c0af17$09173b80$2c4e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14529

While re-looking at the alleged 'Infringement Examples' I came across something that very few people realize and just makes N. K. Stouffer look like an idiot (not that the books don't do that well enough).  She claims that the 'Sorcerer's Stone' is a rip off of her 'Worry Stone'.  Well if it is she's suing the wrong people!  The 'Sorcerer's Stone' otherwise known as the 'Philosopher's Stone', 'Elixir' or 'Grand Magistry' is actually, NOT a stone.  It is an elixir that, according to the ancient art of alchemy, will turn base metals into gold or silver.  Alchemy emerged in China and Egypt in the 3rd century B.C. So Ms. Stouffer has her work cut out for her if she wishes to seapena the ancient alchemists for stealing her work.  Added to the 'Sorcerer's Stone'/'Worry Stone' claime is the fact that one must drink the elixir.  Well...yes if one wants immortal life one must drink the elixir.  But, Ms. Stouffer claims that this is JUST LIKE her 'Drinking water from the well of desire' bit...sadly, immortal life and....whatever the water from the well of desire gives you are not the same and not even close (but we knew that right?).  

Anyway, I do not believe that children who read the HP books, then Ms. Stouffers books will confuse anything in regards to the 'Sorcerer's Stone'.  This woman is just an idiot trying to get money of something that is real, though never actually created, unless you count TNT as the 'Grand Magistry'.


Saitaina
http://www.angelfire.com/al/Diarys/index.html
The Watcher's Diarys-Come, Enjoy the musty smell...
Home of BTVS, Angel, Anita Blake and Harry Potter Fanfiction


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Mar 17 19:19:01 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:19:01 -0000
Subject: THE LOC DOES NOT HAVE STOUFFERS BOOK was Re: From the Person who ...
In-Reply-To: <98vrpv+eeov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <990db5+er7q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14530

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., hamster8 at h... wrote:
> now I may well be wrong, but doesn't 
> US law require a copy of every single book published in the States 
to 
> be lodged with the Library of Congress?  I was under the impression 
> that it was roughly the same system that gets a book put in the 
> British Library, and three others, Trinity College, Dublin is one 
of 
> them, Oxford is one, obviously, else Simon wouldn't have access to 
it 
> (I assume) and I think Cambridge do the same.  So surely the 
Library 
> of Congress *must* have a copy.  Can any List-Americans help out 
here?
> 

I have said this a zillion times before but I will repeat it, and I 
hope you will excuse my shouting:

THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS DOES NOT HAVE A COPY OF THE STOUFFER BOOK.

Allow me to repeat:

THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS DOES NOT HAVE A COPY OF THE STOUFFER BOOK.

Yes, U.S. law requires all publishers to send 2 copies of everything 
they publish to the Library of Congress.  No, all publishers do not 
always do so.  No, the Library is not either willing or able to 
enforce this law.  No, librarians other than Madam Pince do not have 
magical powers so books published in the US do not magically appear 
in the Library of Congress as they come off the press.  Stouffers 
original publisher did not send copies to the Library of Congresss.  
They are not there.  Stouffer is not listed in their catalog.  They 
are not in any library catalog in any publically accessible database 
or in any catalog of Books in Print.  We have only Stouffers word 
that they even existed prior to a year or two ago.

If you get the impression that the frequent repetition of the 
statement "But the Library of Congress MUST have a copy, they have a 
copy of EVERYTHING" is getting on my nerve, you are right.

I just have to scream one more time.

THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS DOES NOT HAVE A COPY OF THE STOUFFER BOOK.

There.  I feel better, now.  Please excuse my rant.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*






From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 19:37:41 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:37:41 -0000
Subject: Nancy Stouffer vs. J.K. Rowling
In-Reply-To: <053701c0af17$09173b80$2c4e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <990ee5+jh73@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14531


There are quite a few things on her list which betray that Stouffer 
does not really understand what the HP books are talking about-- and 
the stone is a classic example.

Interestingly Nicholas Flamel, a character in SS/PS, is an ACTUAL 
historical alchemist who really lived and who really sought the 
Philosopher's Stone-- an item which has a long, long, long theoretical 
history! For Rowling to write about the Philosopher's Stone is a 
little bit like writing about the Holy Grail. It is ancient and does 
not really belong to anybody. (A much more interesting segue for this 
thread would be to talk about the multitude of references Rowling 
makes to medieval alchemy throughout these books! She certainly knows 
her lore!)

A "worry stone", on the other hand, is an item which Greek ladies 
carry around in their pockets and rub their fingers over to sooth 
anxieties and to help them think. It is, I think, also a popular 
object in other cultures-- but it is NOT the Philosopher's Stone; it 
has nothing to do with the Elixer of Life; it is not an item in the 
Harry Potter universe; nor is it *AHEM* an invention of Stouffer's. 
For Stouffer to list this as a "similarity" is REALLY desperately 
stretching things, and for her to claim invention of even HER "worry 
stone" is groundless.

We could go through Stouffer's absurd list point by point for our 
little  troll's benefit-- but all of this has been done before by 
others. The main thing is that the claim that Rowling lifted "the main 
idea" of her stories from Stouffer is NOT EVEN CLAIMED BY STOUFFER, 
who has not been able to come up with even one plot similarity.

What does that suggest?

Jeez, I would love to swat this mosquito once and for all! ick!

--Suzanne






From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Sat Mar 17 19:42:18 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nancy Stouffer vs. J.K. Rowling
References: <990ee5+jh73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013f01c0af1a$61651980$88457bd5@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 14532

>
> A "worry stone", on the other hand, is an item which Greek ladies
> carry around in their pockets and rub their fingers over to sooth
> anxieties and to help them think.

Sorry I have to correct you. In Greek culture, it is the men and not the
women omen who use worry beads to slip through their fingers as they
contemplate the world as it goes by,

Michelle

( who could do with a new set of worry beads )




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 19:53:27 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:53:27 -0000
Subject: Troll-Be_Gone! *poof*
Message-ID: <990fbn+hkct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14533

ya know what? I think this thread is just getting annoying for a lot 
of us. The karmic lesson I think is that treating Stouffer's claims as 
though they are reasonable and deserving of our time and attention is 
a.) pointless and withour pleasure and b.) only feeds into her 
malicious hunger for attention.

I admit it pisses me off to be manipulated by this opportunistic hag-- 
and I truly believe that it is a part of her strategy. Stir people up 
with her lawsuit, the use the attention for self-promotion. Feed off 
it. Use it. Milk it for all it is worth. We have ALL looked at her 
claims and noted at LENGTH how groundless they are. We have noted that 
the courts have dismissed most of her claims, and that she has yet to 
prove a single part of anything that remains. Yet here she is getting 
the attention of AP and reaping OUR precious time because of her 
exploitative lawsuit. She is never going to get it, dear friends, and 
she doesn't matter.

We have got a bonafide emotional vampire in dear old NK, and I would 
highly suggest that we throw some garlic at it and try to move on to 
the topics that truly inspire and enrich us-- let's focus on the real 
reason why we are here.

Sorry to sound irritated. I am irritated mostly with myself for 
letting my ire be so wantonly stirred up by such a worthless hag.

--Suzanne, Gryffindor
(Whose native-made wand is made out of a supple branch of Sequoia with 
a Thunderbird feather at its core. Excellent for transfiguration!)




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 19:55:06 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:55:06 -0000
Subject: Nancy Stouffer vs. J.K. Rowling
In-Reply-To: <013f01c0af1a$61651980$88457bd5@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <990feq+hk28@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14534

Thank you Michelle! I knew it was a big thing in Greece though.

I also have an Irish worry stone-- not the set of beads, but just a 
flat green stone.

--Suzanne




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" 
<michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
> >
> > A "worry stone", on the other hand, is an item which Greek ladies
> > carry around in their pockets and rub their fingers over to sooth
> > anxieties and to help them think.
> 
> Sorry I have to correct you. In Greek culture, it is the men and not 
the
> women omen who use worry beads to slip through their fingers as they
> contemplate the world as it goes by,
> 
> Michelle
> 
> ( who could do with a new set of worry beads )




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar 17 20:10:59 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:10:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nancy Stouffer vs. J.K. Rowling
References: <990ee5+jh73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017501c0af1e$631564c0$0a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14535





There are quite a few things on her list which betray that Stouffer 
does not really understand what the HP books are talking about-- and 
the stone is a classic example.

A "worry stone", on the other hand, is an item which Greek ladies 
carry around in their pockets and rub their fingers over to sooth 
anxieties and to help them think. It is, I think, also a popular 
object in other cultures-- but it is NOT the Philosopher's Stone; it 
has nothing to do with the Elixer of Life; it is not an item in the 
Harry Potter universe; nor is it *AHEM* an invention of Stouffer's. 
For Stouffer to list this as a "similarity" is REALLY desperately 
stretching things, and for her to claim invention of even HER "worry 
stone" is groundless.
Jeez, I would love to swat this mosquito once and for all! ick!
--Suzanne

What, then, is Ms. Stouffer going to do about:

The Worry Stone 
by Marianna Dengler, Sibyl Graber Gerig(Illustrator) (Hardcover - September 1996) 

Is she/did she sue Ms. Dengler, also?

Doreen







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar 17 20:35:21 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:35:21 -0600
Subject: ships and ghosts
Message-ID: <01da01c0af21$caa3fc20$0a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14536

I was rather disappointed to find out that ships had to be about living persons. I was pondering a P/FL ship ... Peeves and the Fat Lady. They seem to be mentioned enough in all the books. 

With Peeves wandering the halls late at night, and the Fat Lady guarding the entrance to Gryffindor, and probably often bored ... would she not welcome a visit from Peeves? Have we decided if the portrait people are ghosts or not?

Doreen, going for a less populated ship.

"Oooooooh!" he said, with an evil cackle. "Ickle Firsties! What fun!" Peeves the Poltergeist, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 20:46:03 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:46:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Troll-Be_Gone! *poof*
In-Reply-To: <990fbn+hkct@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010317204603.57086.qmail@web11113.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14537

I cannot believe that a lawsuit that warranted a bare two inches of
space in the News Brief section of my daily newspaper can generate so
much emotional outrage.  JKR and her publishers AND Time-Warner will
be able to muster the legal resources needed to win the suit and that
will be that.

Calling Stouffer (or anybody else, for that matter) a "hag" and a
"whore", however, is neither necessary nor edifying.  And the person
who posted the pro-Stouffer defense is not an "it" either but a
"he/she".

Notice that JKR's descriptions of the people who felt her books
promoted Satanism never descended to the slanderous.  Once again, she
provides a lesson and an example for readers.

Now can we talk about the books?



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From wings909 at aol.com  Sat Mar 17 20:48:20 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:48:20 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ships and ghosts
Message-ID: <48.12f325ab.27e52794@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14538

In a message dated 03/17/2001 3:44:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
nera at rconnect.com writes:

<< I was rather disappointed to find out that ships had to be about living 
persons. I was pondering a P/FL ship ... Peeves and the Fat Lady. They seem 
to be mentioned enough in all the books.  >>

Nah, a P/MM ship would be better, you know Peaves and Moaning Myrtle.  She 
could definately use a bit of fun in her life...

The Fat Lady sounds like she could handle Sir Calodan better ; )  

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor (self-appointed captain of the Harry/Ginny ship, am I the only H/G 
shipper on this list?)

"What's a Wheezy?"
"Your Wheezy, sir, your Wheezy -- Wheezy who is giving Dobby his sweater!"
                                
                    --J.K Rowling Goblet of Fire



From margdean at erols.com  Sat Mar 17 21:19:13 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:19:13 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Troll-Be_Gone! *poof*
References: <20010317204603.57086.qmail@web11113.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AB3D4D1.EC6202D1@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14539

The best possible Troll-Be-Gone charm is your Delete button.  Use
it early and often.  ;)


--Margaret Dean, who's been doing just that
  <margdean at erols.com>



From eccleston at clara.co.uk  Sat Mar 17 21:33:59 2001
From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:33:59 -0000
Subject: When was Stouffers book written?
Message-ID: <990l87+s0ah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14540

There have been a lot of postings on this & I may have missed 
something here, but what is the evidence, outside of what Stouffer 
herself asserts, as to when her book was written? If the only 
evidence of when it was written is her own, then it is self serving 
and worthless.

Also why, given the millions of copies of HP that have been sold over 
the last few years, have these allegations only just crawled out of 
the wood work?

The timing of this makes no sense to me unless it's just a cheap 
exercise in publicity and an attempt to make money.




From charlotte_nanterre at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 17 21:51:18 2001
From: charlotte_nanterre at hotmail.com (Charlotte lonc)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:51:18 +0100
Subject: HP characters
Message-ID: <F68R9eJjt8gsVWDKpzx000011ec@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14541

Hello!

Have you ever noticed that some HP characters habe french names?
Voldemort: Vol de mort means fly of death
Pettigrow: petit gros means little fat (guy)
Pr Lupin makes me think of Arsene Lupin who is also called the "gentlemen 
robberer", it's a french personage from Maurice Leblanc stories.

Here are some thoughts about:

Dumbledore:
I don't think he knows everything but he understands well Harry's destiny 
that's why he gives him opportunities to fight the "bad guys". He wants him 
to be ready when he faces Voldemort.

Sirius Black:
he seems to be a nice guy, faithful to his friends, but he also seems 
impulsive, it explains why he tried to kill Peter at the end of the VW1 
rather than finding Dumledore and telling him the truth about the keeper of 
the secret.

Severus Snape:
His hate towards almost everyone is his prison and I think only his loyalty 
to Dumbledore can free him. I wish we could know more about his childhood, 
it could explain a lot of things.

I'm new to HP for grown up, so please excuse me if this has already been 
posted a thousand times.

Rivire de Lune.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 21:55:31 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:55:31 -0000
Subject: Troll-Be-Gone! *poof*
In-Reply-To: <20010317204603.57086.qmail@web11113.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <990mgj+p975@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14542

Your point is well taken, Magda. 

In defense of myself and others in this group, though, if you read the 
claims Stouffer makes on her site, you might understand better the 
level of anger her claims tend to generate among HP readers. It is 
pretty outrageous, and blatantly opportunistic. While I would agree 
that stooping to that level might not be edifying, I can hardly call 
Stouffer an innocent victim. I think the person who came here to post 
about her was indeed baiting us.

I unwisely nibbled the bait. I can of course choose not too, and would 
prefer not to because, frankly, I prefer to talk about the books. 

What it really comes down to is what kind of response works well 
vs. what just keeps the bad feeling circulating. It is easy to 
"react"-- it is wiser to laugh it off and not let people push the 
emotional buttons.

Perhaps a good "ridiculous" charm would help? *smile*

Thank you for your input.

Suzanne, Gryffindor






From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Mar 17 22:14:15 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:14:15 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts/Godric's Hollow Location
In-Reply-To: <F13rRjbDt3HvoFOAmEa00001fff@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <990njn+pha3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14543

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "~*Vicki Granger*~" 
<junkjunkjunk2000 at h...> wrote:
<snip>
> GODRIC'S HOLLOW: Hagrid mentions that baby Harry falls asleep over 
Bristol. 
<snip>
> it's only possible that Godric's Hollow must be somewhere in south 
Wales... 

I refer you to message 13942 for a complete explanation of why 
Godric's Hollow is almost certainly NOT in Wales. I am too tired 
(down with a nasty bout of flu) to retype the whole thing. I know 
that there has been debate on this subject and I would be interested 
in hearing alternate opinions on this. Naturally, I think I'm right, 
though :)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From vderark at bccs.org  Sat Mar 17 22:21:53 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:21:53 -0000
Subject: british tv (this evening, and this week)
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINCEBBDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <990o21+rno4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14544


> the BBC in general is fairly bad ar them. There is still no sign of 
the
> transcript form the online chat being posted anytime soon.

Like I said in another post, I'm sick this weekend and I'm far from 
caught up on messages, so if someone else pointed this out, I 
apologize for repeating. But the transcript for the Comic Relief chat 
is posted on the Comic Relief website. Easiest way to get there is 
through the Lexicon, since I linked it there:

>From the main page, click on :
Help/About => sources of Lexicon information

There are links to a couple of other chat transcripts there too. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 22:39:31 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:39:31 -0000
Subject: Jo Rowling and Stouffer's claims...
Message-ID: <990p33+7p4k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14545

I've followed the "discussion" about Stouffer with a dash of levity 
and more than a teaspoon of annoyance. We can all read, and many of 
have read, Stouffer's claims. They are obviously unfounded. She wants 
attention (the worst thing is, she's getting it!) and money.  That's 
it. 

IMO it's almost impossible to have a totally orginal idea since we 
are influenced everything we see and do. BUT that doesn't mean that 
everyone goes around stealing other people's ideas. It certainly 
doesn't mean that Jo Rowling stole anything from "N. K. Stouffer". If 
there was even a chance that Jo might've read these books then it 
possibly would be worth disscussing. The way I see it there's no way 
Jo would have had access to these books and if she did I can't 
believe she actually took the time to read them. 

I'm not a moderator but I think that perhaps this debate is becoming 
to much of an arugment. I don't want to offend anyone, including our 
friend "my_email_1" (is that right?), but we ARE passionate about 
HarryPotter and this is a sore spot. If you want to discuss the 
characters or plot or other minutae of Harry's world go ahead. I just 
don't see the need to discuss the something as obvious as this :-\

Scott




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar 17 23:00:29 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:00:29 -0800
Subject: many many topics
Message-ID: <3AB3EC8C.43E8D4F0@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14546

I just now read all the posts from last Sunday to today!
***
Ender wrote on 3/13/01:
> Harry's ability to fight the imperio curse would have been
> valuable information for Voldemort and his peeps.

Except that apparently Crouch didn't pass that info to Voldemort before
V attacked Harry, or else V didn't realise that the info was valuable.
***
On the thread about whether Harry will kill Voldemort, can Voldemort be
redeemed, what would happen if Harry forgave Voldemort and loved him?
The possibility exists that Voldemort's rebirth with Harry's blood and
Peter's hand, and maybe other things he does in attempt to regain his
immortality, will make him human enough that he can understand
forgiveness and love ... and therefore will ask Harry to put him out of
his misery, misery of being a monster who has done so much evil and who
has made himself permanently unable to be fully human again.
***
Margaret Dean wrote on 3/15/01:
> Magda Grantwich wrote:
> > (snip)
> >  But what was he going to say to Lupin when he resumed human form?
> > "Hey, good going, you really mauled him!"  What kind of a friend
sets
> > up another friend to become a murderer when he's in no condition to
> > stop himself?
> James Potter, OTOH, is a lot less prone to this mistake.  I kind
> on.  "Sirius, are you MAD?" just before he goes bounding down the
> stairs like a deer . . .  :)

"...like a deer..."
I felt a lot happier about James Potter a couple of months ago when it
finally dawned on me (I'm slow on the uptake) that he made that mighty
effort NOT in order to heroically save his enemy Severus from death, but
RATHER to loyally save his friend Remus from expulsion and, worse,
eternal self-guilt. I agree with those who said that Sirius was simply
NOT THINKING of the effect on Remus.
---- Did I really comment on this only as an excuse to express envy of
being named Grand-Witch?
***
Marianne Zarleycat on 3/15/01 wrote:
> Peter doesn't seem to have a
> killer instinct.  He'd much rather wait around for someone else to
> get the job done and then sneak in to get his scraps.

A lot of the bad things that people have said about Peter in the course
of this thread may apply to mice but do not apply to rats. Most races of
wild rats are big and brave and vicious, not scared to sneak in to a
human habitation by night and start eating the baby, not scared to fight
off cats (so only tough cats fight instead of run) who are their
competitors for dustbin contents, and in habit of fighting other rats,
sometimes to the death, over territory.
***
Andrea from Brazil on 3/12/01 (and others) reported from the recent JKR
chat:
> Ron's birthday is on March 1st

It is good to know Ron's birthday, but Ron really seem like a Pisces to
the rest of you? Pisceans are supposed to have a tendency to mysticism
and getting lost in daydreams and often come across as wishy-washy
because it's hard for them to decide between two different things that
they want both (the two fish of the symbol going in opposite
directions). I thought it more likely that Ron would be a stubborn
Taurean or a hot-headed Aries.
***
Jim Ferer on 3/12/01 replied to a post of mine:
> I always got the impression that the WWN is like radio, not TV. And we

> haven't heard of anything like recordings that enable wizards to play
> their own music.  So you can't take your Weird Sisters stuff with you;

> you've got to settle for Stevie Nicks CD's.

I agree with both, but I realised the other night that the SMALL
wizarding population (especially small if the those who believe in
280-400 students at Hogwarts and no other schools are correct) and the
ability to Apparate mean that on just about ANY night, a witch or wizard
can attend a performance by at least ONE of her favorite bands. Except
the kids at Hogwarts can only attend during the holidays or if there is
a show in Hogsmeade on a Hogsmeade weekend.
***
When Indigo asked the difference between a griffin and a hippogriff,
several people mentioned that 'griff' refers to the eagle part. JEN
FAULKER's reply on 3/15/01 included:
> The 'griff' part really is the griffin, though it basically refers to
> the bird part; the 'hippo' part is the horse; and the 'campus' of the
> hippocampus is the sea-monster part.  (Griffin is ultimately derived
> from the Greek word grups, which means 'griffin'; no derivation for
> 'grups' is given in the LSJ (the big Greek dictionary).

I think it is Adrienne Mayor who wrote the article from which I have the
information that the Greek name of Gryphon (origin of Griffin) comes
from a Greek word means 'grasp' or 'claw' -- I recently said it was
Greek for 'grabber' because I was trying to be colloquial.
***
Any Z wrote on 3/15/01:
> I think Dean Thomas is Welsh.  I have absolutely no evidence,
> just a wish.  Anyone want to weigh in?  Football fans, would it be
> insane for him to be a West Ham fan then?

Dean Thomas might be the son of one Dai Thomas who was related to Dylan
Thomas, but he either has an immigrant relative somewhere back or is
adopted, because he was stated to be black. Btw, just the other night I
realised that Dean Thomas is just as likely to be related to our Ebony
Elizabeth Thomas as to Dylan Thomas.
***
One of Amy Z's sigs says:
---------------------------------------------
Harry liked this clock.  It was completely
useless if you wanted to know the time, but
otherwise very informative.
   -HP and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------

It suddenly occured to me that one could make a good guess at the time
by noting which Weasleys were Asleep and which were At Work...
***
Michelle Apostolides wrote today:
> Sorry I have to correct you. In Greek culture, it is the men and not
the
> women omen who use worry beads to slip through their fingers as they
> contemplate the world as it goes by,

Is that because the women's hands are ALWAYS busy with work, busy with
spinning or knitting even if they get a chance to sit down?
***
Caius Marcius Coriolanus's filk for Dumbledore on 3/11/01  includes a
definition of
> Cock-cha-fer (n) The May Bug or Dorbeetle, Melolontha Vulgaris it is
> a large European beetle whose grubs live in the soil for three years
> feeding on the roots of plants.

I understand that to mean that May Bug is the Mayfly, the ubiquitous
cliche symbol of brief transitory life, as the metaphor ignores the
three busy years as a maggot and concentrates on opening the wings one
morning, mating, then dying before sunset.

However, the word "cockchafer" raises (!), ahem, *interesting*
possibilities.
***
On the married teachers thread:
I do not believe that Dumbledore and McGonagall are a couple, neither
married nor less formally paired, because I remain convinced that
McGonagall and Hooch are a couple. If I wanted to believe that
Dumbledore and McGonagall were a couple, I would not be put off by the
difference in their ages (150 to 70) -- what does 80 years matter when
both people are grown up enough to know their own minds? What bugs me is
one wizarding couple I invented, who married when the husband was 60 and
the wife was 20 -- facts which occur often enough in the Muggle world --
but I'm not at all sure that a girl of 20 is mature enough to make
life-long decisions that she won't regret later.

Dumbledore and Pomfrey might be a couple. Dumbledore and Sprout????

Storm Snuffles Mcgoo's theory that Dumbledore and Snape are a couple
would certainly explain why he felt free to barge into the room where
the interesting things were happening (the room of the four Champions)
without being invited or having any business there, why Dumbledore
didn't order him out, why he verbally defended Dumbledore against
Karkaroff's accusation....
***
On the theory that a writer should make up everything in her book from
scratch: I have been told that James Joyce invented his own language in
which to write Finnegin's Wake, but he made references to real things
ranging from his familiar shops in Dublin to Hindu mythology. Similarly,
JKR 'stole' many things like the idea of magic, magic wands, flying
broomsticks, griffins and hippogriffs (see above). Originality may be
overrated.

f
b
a
n
d
q
t
a
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e

The list of names of people who checked QTA out from the Library
includes I. Fawcett. I have trouble reading that letter, so am not SURE
it is I, but am sure it is not M for Mary. That quite irks me.

Value of the Galleon. As others have said  250 million dollars = 174
million pounds = 34 million Galleons indicates a $7.35 (5 pound)
Galleon. Thus,  the 14 Sickles 3 Knuts price of the book would be $6.12
compared to $3.99 in USA, which is reasonable since publishers often
mark up the price of exported books.

However, I CANNOT believe in a $7.35 Galleon ($51 wand), just as some
people CANNOT believe in a 1000-student Hogwarts. I continue to believe
in a $25-$40 Galleon.

Could their situation be something like countries whose currencies have
an official exchange rate to the dollar or deuschemark (sorry, euro) but
the real exchange rate on the sidewalk in front of the hotel or any shop
selling souvenirs is MUCH more favorable to the hard currency? That
would encourage the wizarding folk to earn their money in the Muggle
world, convert it to Galleons at Gringotts at the official rate, then
convert their Galleons back into Muggle money on the black market!

QTA contains too much info on USA (it's too much because it disagrees
with my theories, such as wizards and witches emigrating in Colonial
days in hope of evading European persecution).

I gather from Penny and Simon that there is no such town as Puddlemere
in the UK. But Puddlemere was one of the few placenames (of homes of
Quidditch teams) that I thought I recognized. I thought it was Dr.
Doolittle's home town, but I did a web search and found that the good
doctor is from Puddleby not Puddlemere. Maybe Hugh Lofting changed the
name to protect his privacy and it really is Puddlemere.

Having 13 teams in a league (instead of 16 for playing tidy elimination
rounds, or 12 and the winner of each group of 3 goes into the
semi-finals) was probably invented by the same wizards who assigned 17
sickles to the galleon and 29 knuds to the sickle.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 23:20:50 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:20:50 -0000
Subject: Ethnicity (was Hogwarts Location)/+wizard transport options/+parallel world theory
In-Reply-To: <02c401c0aeb6$bd8a1d00$6e3570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <990rgi+5kqt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14547

I just typed this but apparently hit the wrong button and now it 
seems to have disappeared. If my original post comes up before this 
one I'm sorry.

Neil wrote:
"I'm also formulating in my head an image of the magical world 
covering an alternative plane, but complementary to the Muggle world, 
rather than the two working alongside each other.  In my mind, the 
map of the magical world is more sparse; its features are dotted 
around the map, but with huge spaces in between, which are, in the 
Muggle world, completely full.  Landmarks such as Hogwarts, Diagon 
Alley and Hogsmeade are among the few named places on the wizarding 
map and would appear as "holes" on the Muggle map (not actual holes, 
but areas that somehow had nothing of note, for no appent reason)
I see the track which takes the Hogwarts Express from King's Cross to 
Hogwarts as the only transport route marked.  Older witches and 
wizards can apparate and use brooms for travel, so there is no need 
for a network of roads and tracks in the wizarding plane.  Although I 
see these two planes one on top of the other, I don't think things 
can exist in the same space (but bear in mind that some things could 
be below others - e.g. Gringotts)."

--Magic, Neil! I agree with you that they are on different planes. 
Even though us Muggles can't get to Diagon alley, or see it. It 
doesn't mean that it isn't there. It just doesn't happen to take up 
any space in our world because it doesn't exist to us. (Something 
like that.)

Say I stumble onto Hogwarts. All I see is a ruin of a castle but the 
real castle is still there, I just can't SEE it. However the people 
aren't there, they ARE on some type of different plane. Which might 
explain why Harry, Ron and Hermione never see confused hikers 
stumbling out of the Forbidden Forest.

IOW, if the magical Hogwarts and Hogsmeade are on another plane then 
the only way to get there is probably by magical transportation like 
apparation, and the Hogwart's Express. A muggle born wizard's parents 
couldn't physically drive to Hogwarts and let their son or Daughter 
off, because even if the child is a wizard they'd still see the 
muggle Hogwarts since they didn't get there via magical 
transportation.

Make sense? Nah, I didn't think so...

Scott





From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 18 00:29:59 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:29:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP characters
In-Reply-To: <F68R9eJjt8gsVWDKpzx000011ec@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010318002959.24997.qmail@web5205.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14548


--- Charlotte lonc <charlotte_nanterre at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> 
> Have you ever noticed that some HP characters habe
> french names?
> Voldemort: Vol de mort means fly of death

Voldemort can mean either "flight of death" or
"robbery of death" (going for literal, rather than
neat here). The word "vol" can mean either flight or
robbery. 

Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 18 00:35:04 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 00:35:04 -0000
Subject: Ron's B-Day/JKR's Originality/Idea for a Filk
In-Reply-To: <3AB3EC8C.43E8D4F0@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <990vro+691e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14549

You know you're prissy and insufferable when you've had FOUR offers 
to go out drinking and/or dancing on St. Patrick's Day and you take 
four rainchecks so you can sit at home and read and sulk because the 
humidity caused by a March "sugar snow" has caused you to have a bad 
hair day.  ;-)

Ah, well.  My hair will be either braided or relaxed or shaved BALD 
tomorrow, depending upon my mood.  (Eb's hair cringes in horror.)  
And in the meantime, I have a ton of e-mail to answer.

Rita wrote:

"It is good to know Ron's birthday, but Ron really seem like a Pisces 
to the rest of you? Pisceans are supposed to have a tendency to 
mysticism and getting lost in daydreams and often come across as 
wishy-washy because it's hard for them to decide between two 
different things that they want both (the two fish of the symbol 
going in opposite directions). I thought it more likely that Ron 
would be a stubborn Taurean or a hot-headed Aries."

Ron's birthday strikes me as both right and wrong at the same time.  
No, Ron is not like any other Pisces I've ever known in real life.  
My grandmother and my best friend are Pisceans, and the Phrase You'll 
Most Likely Hear From Them is "I had the *strangest* dream about you 
last night... let me tell you about it..."  But this seems to lead 
some credence to the Seventh Son/Seer/Diviner Theory, I think.  Also, 
every time he gets mad in canon or fanon henceforth, I'll think of 
him as being "madder than a March hare."

:::ducks away from the Ron fans:::

Amy Z wrote:
"I think Dean Thomas is Welsh.  I have absolutely no evidence, just a 
wish.  Anyone want to weigh in?  Football fans, would it be insane 
for him to be a West Ham fan then?"

Rita replied: 
"Dean Thomas might be the son of one Dai Thomas who was related to 
Dylan Thomas, but he either has an immigrant relative somewhere back 
or is adopted, because he was stated to be black.  BTW, just the 
other night I realised that Dean Thomas is just as likely to be 
related to our Ebony Elizabeth Thomas as to Dylan Thomas."

Ah... sure.  I'm Dean's older American Squib sister.  :-)  Would you 
believe I never, ever thought of this while reading canon?  This is 
because Thomas is not the last name on my birth certificate.  ;-)

On JKR's originality--I hope people realize that there are no new 
stories, only new ways of telling the old.  There are a finite number 
of narratives.  It takes genius to make what is familar fresh and 
what is commonplace exciting.  JKR didn't get to where she is because 
she is a hack.

In closing, I've an idea for a filk, although I'd much rather Caius, 
Pippin, or another talented creature take the ball and run with it.  
Does anyone have the lyrics to "I'm My Own Grandpa"?  Please e-mail 
me offlist.

Take care, everyone... and if you're going out, have a pint of 
Guinness for me!

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (who is not wearing green, but who is featuring 
green predominately in her home decorating scheme)




From prince_galrion at yahoo.no  Sun Mar 18 02:43:18 2001
From: prince_galrion at yahoo.no (prince_galrion at yahoo.no)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 02:43:18 -0000
Subject: Pronounciation/Supervising Students/More Stouffer/Wizarding Money (SPOILER)
Message-ID: <9917c7+rpe3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14550

Several topics here.

Beating a dead horse back to life (Whip!  Smack!  And don't you dare 
call the RSPCA!), I thought I'd mention my own theory on 
pronounciation of two names from the books.

(1)   Draco.  I believe Draco and his father pronounce it in proper 
Latin fashion (Drah-ko as opposed to Dray-ko), based on the fact that 
the Malfoys constitute an ancient family proud of its tradition, and 
probably of the sort that force-feeds Latin to their children at age 
3.  They seem the type of people that care about proper 
pronounciation of their own names.  Also, when Draco introduces 
himself on the Hogwarts Express in PS, Ron laughs at his name.  I 
find it hard to believe that Ron, who is brought up in a wizard-home, 
has not heard names just as strange as, or stranger than, Draco 
before (names such as Mundungus, Bathilda, etc.).  Rather, I think 
that he found Draco's way of saying the name (probably with a very 
bloated, self-important upper-class tone to it) funny.  To see Harry 
& Co. pronounce Draco in English fashion, to mock Draco, would seem 
perfectly in character to me.

(2)   Voldemort.  This name, on the other hand, I suspect always has 
been known to the general British wizarding-population with a spoken 
t.  Most will have seen the name only in writing, not daring to speak 
his name out loud, but if they would, they probably would pronounce 
the t.  This is a British society at all, with apparently the 
knowledge of French as widespread as it was in UK around 1940 - i.e. 
not much at all, so they would not know to mute the t.  Chances are 
that most would not recognise it as French at all.  Whether Voldemort 
himself knew French is also open to conjecture - knowing that he grew 
up in an orphanage, I doubt it, but we know also that he is 
intelligent, so he may have decided to learn French just as a 
challenge to himself.  If the name is spread solely through writing, 
however, it may not matter at all how he himself pronounces it.

***

As to why the Hogwarts Express takes so long time, if Platform 9 3/4 
could be located anywhere (including the Malvinas), without 
inconvenience to the users, nomatter whence they come - I think the 
trip is important in forming relations betweens tudents, without the 
pressure of teacher/prefect supervision.  We know (I think, at least) 
that there are normally not teachers on the train, and the prefects 
seem to sit in the forward-most compartments, without actually 
patrolling the trains (though the location seems to be known to most 
of the students, if they have a problem).

Similarly, I believe the students are without adult supervision in 
the common-rooms because the school believes it important for them to 
have an area (other than their bedroom) where they can assemble 
without adult supervision.  I seem to recall the fact that adults 
appearing in the common-room is a rare event, normally only happening 
I am also under the impression that on british boarding schools there 
is a tendency to leave more of the responsibility of supervision and 
minor crisis-management (exploding quills and the likes) with the 
prefects, who are chosen from the students taht seem to possess the 
necessary qualities for such duties.  As I deleted the email with the 
listof FAQs, I do not remember if there is an FAQ being written on 
British boarding-schools, but I certainly hope there is.

***

The following appeared Saturday 17.03.2001 in VG, Norway's largest 
newspaper (read by maybe as much as half of Norway's population).  VG 
is (most of the time, anyway) what can be called a serious tabloid 
(but then, every daily tabloid in Norway belongs to the "serious 
tabloid"-category).  The translation is mine.  I am not keen on 
letting this go completely without answer - the article is full of 
mistakes/errors, starting with the inability to spell JKR's name 
properly.  

If any of you want to work on writing an item to debunk the 
following, I'll be happy to translate it and forward it to the writer 
of the article.  I am already  somewhat bogged down in creative 
things I have to write, and have somewhat reduced computer-time on 
hand for the time being, so I'd rather not have to do it myself.

Alternatively, one might go for the Letters-section (where the 
maximum length is roughly the same as taht of the below manuscript), 
or for the Debate-page, where a whole page (Times New Roman, 10pt or 
equivalent, four columns) is allotted to a single item (but it's 
harder to get accepted).  In the debate-column the author is given a 
small biography - perhaps an opportunity for more HPforGrownups-
promotion?

FWIW, the item took up a whole column, save three inches at the 
bottom given up to an ad.

---------------------------------------------
LARRY IN PLAGIARISM LAWSUIT AGAINST HARRY

LONDON (VG)  Harry Potter may need all of his magical abilities if he 
wants to rid himself of his new rival Larry Potter.

For Larry Potter is os headed, at flank speed towards the 
bookshelves.  At the same time, the creator of Larry Potter has sued 
the creator of Harry Potter for plagiarism.

The female American writer Nancy Stouffer claims that ideas and 
characters in the Harry Potter-books have been stolen by JK Rowlings 
from the book "The Legend of Rah and the Muggles", published in USA 
in 1984.

And there are stunning similarities beyond just Larry and Harry.

JK Rowlings writes about Lily Potter, Harry's dead mum.  Stouffer 
also has a character in her book from 1984 called Lilly Potter - with 
double L.  In the English version of the Harry Potter-books, the 
story is about the "Keeper of the Keys".  In Stouffer's book the 
story is about the "Keeper of the Gardens".

JK Rowlings lets Harry Potter ride on a broom-stick called Nimbus.  
In Stouffer's 17 year old book Nimbus is a character that rides 
through the air on a horse.

REJECTED
Nancy Stouffer tried to have "The Legend of Rah and the Muggles" 
republished in 1998, but was rejected by the publishers - because 
they felt that the book could be confused with the books about Harry 
Potter.

The American writer believes that JK Rowlings came across her book 
when she studied in Baltimore in 1987-88.  Stouffer's book was a big 
success in USA when it was published, and created several spinoff-
products such as dolls and stickers.  Her publisher also promoted it 
at Oprah Winfery's popular talkshow.

The judicial fight between the two writers, still in progress in New 
York, will not be less ferocious when Stouffer now will attempt to 
have her book republished in Great Britain.

JK Rowlings categorically denies all allegations of plagiarism, and 
her publisher has now launched a counter-lawsuit.  Rowling's counter-
lawsuit is backed by powerful Time-Warner.  The movie-giant is not 
keen on having a new Potter-character on the market - just a few 
months before the premiere of the movie about Harry Potter.
---------------------------------------------

***
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

A
N
D

M
O
R
E

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

All of you should really read the "With Thanks"-page (the page before 
the title-page)

I agree that the Galleon seems underrated.  It may of course be a 
result of the exchange-rate not properly reflecting the relations in 
actual buying-power between the currencies.  This is analogue to what 
I experienced on a 3-week tour through Europe with an American 
concert-band in 1994:  I noted that if I had brought traveler's 
cheques in US Dollars (USD) instead of Norwegian Kroner (NOK) 
(assuming equivalent amounts), I would have gotten up to 50% more of 
the local currency than I did.  I brought NOK equivalent of USD400, 
but they lasted only as long as 300 *actual* USD would have lasted.  
This is of course also *very* beneficial to muggle-born students, 
whose money will last a long way.  

I also note that there *is* inflation in the wizarding world, as 150 
Galleons in 1269 is the equivalent of more than one million Galleons 
today.  

***

Best regards
Christian Stub?
38% obsessed basset-hound who fondly remembers James Nehring's 
book "Why do we gotta do this stuff, Mr. Nehring?"
Captain-general of the mercenary SHIPping-fleet - available for hire 
now.  protect your own SHIPs against the shameless raids of your 
enemy, or search out and atttack your enemy's forces in a preemptive 
strike.  Crews guaranteed not afraid of spirit-crews such as found on 
Snape-Lily.  Prepaid jobs only.  Stub? Mercenary Ltd.  Proudly 
increasing the cost of SHIPping-wars.  ;-)

P.S.   Regarding my offer to lease out a number of ships for your 
SHIPing-wars, I forgot to include a price-quote.  Prices are as 
follows:

For ships, you pay five sickles, three knuts (148 knuts), per ton 
deep load per knot designed top speed per day.  For the battlecruiser 
Lion, the daily rate becomes:

29 700 tons * 28 knots * 148 knuts/(day*knot*ton) = 123 076 800 knuts 
= 249648 Galleons, 11 sickles, 17 knuts per day.

The price includes any onboard aircraft, fuel, crew and supplies, but 
not ammunition.  For ammunition, take the calibre in millimetres 
(rounded up (*not* down) to the nearest whole millimetre), divide by 
two, multiply by the length of the barrel in calibres, and multiply 
by five knuts, to find the price per shot fired.  Round the price up 
(*not* down) to the nearest knut.  The price includes both charge and 
shell.  Example:

The HMS Lion has 13.5in = 343 mm main artillery, with 45 calibre long 
barrels.

Price per shot = (343mm / 2) * 45calibres * 5 knuts/
(calibre*barrellength*shot) = 38588 knuts = 78 Galleons, 4 sickles, 
18 knuts per shot.  Price is the same for AP, APC, semi-APC and HE-
shells.

She also has 4in = 102 mm secondary artillery, with 50 calibre long 
barrels.

Price per shot = (102mm / 2) * 50calibres * 5 knuts/
(calibre*barrellength*shot) = 38588 knuts = 25 Galleons, 14 sickles, 
19 knuts per shot.  Price is the same for AP, APC, semi-APC and HE-
shells.

Torpedoes has flat price of 200 Galleons per piece.

For purposes of calculations, 12pdr guns will be assumed to be of 
3in/50cal model, 6pdr guns will be assumed to be of 57mm/50cal model, 
3pdr guns will be assumed to be of 47mm/50cal model and 2pdr guns 
will be assumed to be of 40mm/50cal model.




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 18 02:58:42 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 02:58:42 -0000
Subject: Jo Rowling and Stouffer's claims...
In-Reply-To: <990p33+7p4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <991892+6sc1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14551

Of course, the point is pretty much moot because the suit will be 
dismissed as valueless. Maybe Warner or JKR will sue Stouffer for 
libel/slander or they'll collect damages for frivolous lawsuit, if 
we're lucky. 

I think the Stouffer claim is pretty outrageous, that there aren't 
enough similarities in plot to scream plagiarism (and isn't it usually 
text and actual sentences that are lifted? Hmmm. If the main idea of a 
book is copyrightable, couldn't half of the fiction writers in 
existence be suing each other? "He is plagiarizing me by using the 
marriage plot!" "I wrote a novel about a fantastic world that is really 
a post-apocalyptic earth, and I have a huge list of people to sue" 
"Harlequin not only stole my story, but they keep using it over and 
over!"), and that incidentally, if you can't copyright titles, how can 
you copyright magical terms or character names? But somebody on this 
group, if I recall correctly, is working on a lawsuit FAQ, so I'll be 
quiet now. 

BTW, did you notice the stuff about Neville in the complaint that is 
just plain incorrect according to canon? 

Charmian





From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar 18 03:23:46 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:23:46 -0600
Subject: [Fwd: [HPFGU-OTChatter] PENNY, DON'T READ THIS]
Message-ID: <3AB42A41.4E772594@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14552

Moderator Penny--delete this unread. Please.
Moderators, not Penny--not everyone's on the Chatter group, sorry.

-------- Original Message --------
   Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] PENNY, DON'T READ THIS
      Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:55:25 -0600
      From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
  Reply-To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
        To: "HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com"
            <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>

I mean it, delete it now, don't read down.

D
O
N
'T

R
E
A
D

T
H
I
S
.
.
.
.
People interested in participating in a "words of wisdom, advice, &
counsel" to the new mom" book for Penny, please email me on a private
post for details. We gotta get rolling if we want to get anything to her
pre-baby.

--Amanda, editor at texas.net


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From bbennett at joymail.com  Sun Mar 18 04:21:40 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:21:40 -0000
Subject: Stouffer vs. Rowling: infringement examples
In-Reply-To: <053701c0af17$09173b80$2c4e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <991d4k+r46v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14553

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:
> While re-looking at the alleged 'Infringement Examples' I came 
across something that very few people realize and just makes N. K. 
Stouffer look like an idiot (not that the books don't do that well 
enough).  She claims that the 'Sorcerer's Stone' is a rip off of her 
'Worry Stone'.  >>

I also looked at the list of supposed infringement examples. One item 
JKR is accused of lifting from Stouffer is that the castle has a set 
of stone steps leading to an oak door (Stouffer's lead to a "wooden" 
door). For the love of all that is holy, how many castles out there 
*don't* have stone steps leading to a wooden door? This is an 
*infringement*? Then why didn't they include clothes in the list? I 
know Rowling describes more than once Harry getting dressed in her 
books, and Stouffer's characters appear to wear clothing - surely JKR 
ripped that off. And those ugly little critters on Stouffer's 
homepage are bald, yet JKR very specifically describes her characters 
as having hair. Coincidence, or intentional misdirect away from 
Stouffer's limited release, limited edition, out-of-print-for-the-
last-fifteen-years book? Quick, someone call the lawyers!

<sigh> I'm sorry, I obviously do sarcasm poorly, but this makes me 
angry. I'm all about giving the benefit of the doubt, but the more I 
read, the more this looks like a case of someone trying to cash in on 
the good fortunes and talent of an outstanding and much beloved 
writer. 

I'm off to the Good Ship R/H's bar. I need a gin and tonic. 

B




From lexac3 at usa.net  Sun Mar 18 04:35:37 2001
From: lexac3 at usa.net (lexac3 at usa.net)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:35:37 -0000
Subject: OT: Tripod casualties
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010317103519.0529fec0@pop.ma.ultranet.com>
Message-ID: <991dup+27hp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14554

For anyone caught in the Tripod debacle trying to recover pages they 
don't have backed-up:

Do a Google search (at www.google.com) on terms that will pull up your 
pages. A good bet is running a search for: 

your name, or something that appears on every one of your pages, and 
"site:members.tripod.com" (without the quotation marks).

If you get a hit, don't click on the link itself, it will give you a 
blank page. Instead, click on "cached." This will give you a copy of 
the page that Google has saved in its cache, probably from before 
Tripod booted you.

Do this fast, before Google updates its cache.

>From what I've heard, Tripod is hitting all manner of fansites: slash, 
gen, het, fanart, etc., using the copyright clause in the TOS. I think 
angelfire sites are owned by the same parent company, so those of you 
on angelfire might also want to backup, if you haven't already.

Alexa






From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Mar 18 07:08:36 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 02:08:36 EST
Subject: Discussion summary: Chapter 35 Veritaserum
Message-ID: <f5.824a014.27e5b8f4@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14555

Veritaserum.

??you have a streak of pride and independence that might have ruined all?
Bartemius Crouch, Jr. to and about Harry Potter


This is JKR?s chapter of revelations. If you view the GoF as in part a 
mystery, here the mystery starts to unravel.



We discover that the person who we believed to be Alastor Moody, Auror, 
friend and ally of Albus Dumbledore, is actually Bartemius Crouch, Jr., a 
Death Eater, spy and emissary of Voldemort.

(Bartemius Crouch, BC, Senior will be referred to as BC, Senior; Bartemius 
Crouch, Junior will be referred to as BC, Junior. ?Moody? means Bartemius 
Crouch, Junior in his masquerade as Alastor Moody and Moody without 
quotations means the real person. Quotes are from the U.K. Bloomsbury 
version. First Edition.)

The chapter begins as Harry teleports from the clutches of Voldemort into the 
hands of Albus Dumbledore (from Little Hangleton to Hogwarts). Harry is 
clutching in one hand the Triwizard Cup/Portkey, ?and in his other arm the 
body of Cedric Diggory. Harry had promised the ghost/appearance of Cedric to 
return Cedric?s body to his parents. When Dumbledore turns Harry over, Harry 
lets go of the cup but clutches Cedric closer. He seizes Dumbledore's wrist 
and whispers that Lord Voldemort is back. The crowd begins to cry out that 
Cedric is dead.

Dumbledore tells Harry to stay, but ?Moody? drags/carries Harry from the 
Quidditch field/labyrinth to his office, gives him a stimulant, and insists 
that Harry tell him what happened.

?Moody?(in classic villain manner) tells Harry far more than necessary and 
therefore provides time for a rescue. He reveals the following: 

- that Karkarov was a Death Eater who had betrayed Voldemort and that 
Karkarov fled in fear of Voldemort when he felt the Dark Mark burn on his 
arm. 

- it was he ?Moody? who put Harry?s name in the Goblet of Fire (and then 
pulls out his wand and points it at Harry).

-? it was he who fired the Dark Mark into the sky during the Quidditch World 
Cup. 

-? how he yearns to know that Lord Voldemort tortured those he hates the most 
? the Death Eaters who walked free. ?Tell me he hurt them, Harry?.?

?Moody? boasts (almost at leisure) about how he protected Harry during the 
contest and engineered his victory (If it had not been for Cedric?s decision 
not to take the cup, would Harry have won?). ?Moody? says he:

- nudged Hagrid into telling Harry about the dragons
- told Cedric to open the egg underwater ?
- gave the book Magical Mediterranean Water-Plants and Their Properties to 
Neville Longbottom so that Harry would find out about Gillyweed. When this 
failed, ??Moody? talked about the Gillyweed while Dobby, the House Elf was 
cleaning clothes, with the (correct) assumption that Dobby would tell 
Harryabout the Gillyweed. 
- stunned Fleur Delacour, put the Imperius Curse on Viktor Krum and forced 
Krum ?to attack Diggory (on the final night in the maze)

As Harry wonders how Moody could possibly be a Death Eater, he sees foggy 
shapes in ?Moody?s? Foe-Glass. ?Moody? fantasizes in whispers how the Dark 
Lord will reward him for first, delivering ?Harry to him ?so that Lord 
Voldemort could use Harry?s blood for regeneration. Then, ?Moody? goes on 
about ?when he kills Harry, how Voldemort will reward him, ?that he?ll be 
closer to him than a son. ???Moody?s? eye bulged ? as he tells of the 
similarities between he and his Lord, ?their disappointing fathers, the 
indignity of being named after their fathers, and the intense pleasure they 
had in killing their fathers. Harry blurts out that ?Moody? is mad; 
?Moody?, annoyed, finally decides to get on with the job of killing Harry, 
when suddenly.....

?Stupefy!There was a blinding flash of red light and with a great splintering 
and crashing, the door of Moody?s office was blasted apart ---? and Harry 
sees Snape, McGonagall and Dumbledore. Dumbledore is revealed in his wrath 
and power. Minerva, with great pity, tries to take Harry to the hospital wing 
but Dumbledore intervenes insisting that Harry must stay so that Harry can 
comprehend.

Dumbledore himself drops the next bombshell as he states that ?Moody? is not 
truly Alastor Moody. He dispatches Snape for his strongest Truth Potion and 
for Winky the House-Elf and sends McGonagall for the black dog/ Sirius who's 
hanging out at Hagrid's. ?Dumbledore opens the magic trunk with seven locks 
and finds the real Mad-Eye Moody, starved, asleep, ?and exhausted. Dumbledore 
states that the fake Moody used the Imperius Curse and Polyjuice Potion to 
impersonate the real Auror.

Harry watches as the fake Moody transforms in front of him into the man Harry 
saw as a boy in the Pensieve? ? Barty Crouch, Jr. Snape and Winky immediately 
recognize him as well .Dumbledore administers the truth serum that Snape 
brought.

The rest of the chapter is the interrogation of Barty Crouch. (Winky pleads 
with BC, Junior not to reveal the family?s secrets, trembles, cowers in fear 
and wails in despair throughout). ?We learn that BC Junior?s dying?mother 
persuaded his father to help BC, Junior escape from Azkaban. Mother and son 
changed places using the Polyjuice Potion. Mother was buried under her son?s 
name, and when the father got his son home, father staged his wife?s death. 
?BC, Senior subdued his son with a number of spells, and with the assistance 
of the House Elf, Winky. Winky became BC, Junior?s keeper and caregiver. 
Crouch, Jr.has been imprisoned and controlled for years.

Bertha Jorkins, from the Ministry of Magic, discovered the Crouch secret, and 
BC, Senior put a very powerful memory charm on her so that she would forget 
whats he knew (Does this account ?for BC, Senior?s intense worry about her 
whereabouts at the beginning of the GoF?)

Winky spent months persuading BC, Senior to let BC, Junior go to the World 
Quidditch cup, invoking the memory of his dead mother. BC Senior agreed, and 
Winky took BC Junior there under the cover of the Invisibility Cloak. But BC, 
Junior was regaining his powers (how? why?) and was able to snatch HP?s wand 
from his pocket.

BC, Junior found the Death Eaters tormenting the Muggles, and became enraged 
at their lack of dedication to Voldemort's return. ?BC, Junior was pulled 
away from confronting the DEs by Winky?s ?own brand of magic?. Then BC, 
Junior cast the Dark Mark into the sky, and ?the Ministry of Magic wizards 
(including Arthur Weasley and Amos Diggory) stunned BC, Junior and Winky with 
a Stunning Spell. BC, Senior found his son, and dismissed Winky for almost 
letting him escape.

Voldemort had captured ?and tortured ?Bertha Jorkins in Albania. She revealed 
the scoop about ?the Triwizard Tournament, and that Moody would be teaching 
at Hogwarts. She relayed that BC, Junior had escaped from Azkaban, was being 
?held prisoner by BC, Senior, and was still fanatically devoted to ?Lord 
Voldemort. 

Then Voldemort arrived at the Crouch home carried by Wormtail. ?BC, Junior 
smiles in ecstasy as he recalls how his father answered the door, and was 
cursed and controlled by Voldemort in the same way his father had cursed and 
controlled him. Voldemort, controlling BC, Senior, through the Imperius 
curse, forced BC, Senior to go to work as usual.

BC, Junior jumped at the chance to go to Hogwarts to trap Harry and deliver 
him to Voldemort.. Then BC, Junior and Wormtail went to Moody?s home, and 
subdued himj ust in time. BC, Junior became the fake Moody through the use of 
the PolyjuicePotion.

BC, Senior started to fight the Imperius Curse and finally escaped to 
Hogwarts to warn Dumbledore (see the Madness of Mister Crouch). Through use 
of the Marauder?s Map (which Dumbledore finally finds out about), BC, Junior 
kept track of his father?s whereabouts.

BC,Junior states that the Map nearly encompassed his ruin, because it let 
Potter know that Bartemius Crouch was in Snape?s office. BC Junior explained 
to Harry at the time that his father hated Snape and that?s why BC, Senior 
might be searching Snape?s office. 

When BC, Senior showed up at Hogwarts, BC, Junior stunned Krum, and killed 
his father. BC, Junior transfigured BC, Senior?s body into a bone and buried 
it in the earth in front of Hagrid?s cabin.

Then BC, Junior states that he?carried the Triwizard Cup in to the maze and 
turned it into a Portkey. 

The chapter ends with.....

?The insane smile lit his features once more, and his head drooped onto his 
shoulder as Winky wailed and sobbed at his side.?

More questions and thoughts soon?.and at some point a character sketch on Ron 
Weasley.


Susan McGee, Ann Arbor, Michigan (with gratitude to my partner for being 
almost as obsessed as I am)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Mar 18 07:10:00 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 02:10:00 EST
Subject: Chapter 35 - more, and more and more
Message-ID: <103.68692b.27e5b948@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14556

So, hopefully this is not too opinionated, or redundant to past discussions...


1) What about the father-son relationships in HP/specifically in GofF

a) The fake Moody talks about how he and Voldemort had disappointing fathers, 
were named after them, killed them...and then exults in the ?anticipated 
reward.
"I will be his dearest, his closest supporter...closer than a son."

b) What about Harry's relationship with his father/father figures? The end of 
PoA where Harry sees Prongs, thinks he sees his father (does he?) is really 
seeing himself and then is told by Dumbledore that he has found his father in 
himself. HP is often told he is reMARKABLY like James

c) What about Harry and Dumbledore? Dumbledore is the Great Protector of 
Harry, watching over him, throughout his life. Harry begins to trust 
Dumbledore.....is Dumbledore's relationship to Harry more like Merlin's to 
Arthur's? and so is Dumbledore not just personally concerned about Harry but 
sees him as a future leader in the war against Voldemort...
d)Then we have Sirius and Harry..Sirius is Harry's godfather, and Harry has 
also begin to depend and trust him.

e) Amos and Cedric Diggory....

f) Arthur Weasley and sons....

g) Will I be shot if I ask about JKR's relationship with her father?


2) What about Barty Crouch, Jr. and Lord Voldemort.....some have suggested 
that Barty's worship has an erotic base -- or is it shared blood lust? or 
does Barty not want to be Voldemort's lover, but in fact, his son?

3) This chapter does focus on Barty Crouch, Jr. but you can't really 
understand Barty Jr without Barty Senior.
(Back to Sirius talking to the Triad about Voldemort's reign of terror)
Sirius talks about Barty Senior ?--- how he went after the Death Eaters, put 
people (including Sirius) in Azkaban without a trial, authorized the use of 
the unforgiveable curses against DEs, authorized the Aurors to kill. He 
contrasts Barty Senior with Mad Eye Moody who he said never killed when he 
didn't have to.....

We hear at that time that Junior was a boy (and we see him as a terrified 
pleading boy in the Pensieve), that Sirius doesn't know if he was 
guilty....and how Senior sent him to Azkaban....

Then Sirius says that "Crouch's fatherly affection stretched just far enough 
to give his son a trial and by all accounts it wasn't much more than an 
excuse for Crouch to show how much he hated the boy..then he sent him staight 
to Azkaban." (They are all shocked)

"Once the boy had died, people started feeling a bit more sympathetic towards 
him, and started asking how a nice young lad froma good ?family ?had gone so 
badly astray. The conclusion was that his father never cared much for him."

Crouch, Senior, is portrayed as someone to whom reputation meant everything. 
Ron worries that Percy might do the same thing.

But let's pause for a second here. We have already seen how a loved character 
can be wrong -- Hagrid saying that all the wizards that have gone bad came 
from Slytherin. And Sirius hates...remember Dumbledore saying that although 
Sirius was innocent, he had not acted too well in breaking into the castle...

We NOW know that Junior WAS guilty, and then he tortured Frank Longbottom and 
his wife, and that he absolutely WAS a death eater, 
that he killed his father, and that he did his damndest to kill Harry. That 
he showed Neville the curse that HE killed his parents with and then 
pretended to comfort him.

What about Senior? If you had been a foe of the Death Eaters, and your son 
turned out to be one, might that not drive you crazy?
(If you know a little history, we all see how those who were fighting for a 
revolution, like the French one, can become just like the people they were 
fighting against?)

It may in fact be true (Junior thinks so) that Senior didn't love him, but 
maybe Junior turned to the Dark Side early on.....Crouch's sin then becames 
not SENDING his son to Azkaban (what should he do? leave him at large to 
torture and kill more people? leave him at large to engineer the return of 
Voldemort). It may not even be smuggling him out..so that he could be 
imprisoned by dad and the House Elf..but not tortured in Azkaban.......the 
mistakes become doing a memory charm on Bertha Jorkins, and dismissing the 
House Elf..at the end he tries to redeem himself by going to Voldemort.......

Did someone compare Barty, Senior to Richard III?
What about the Greek tragic heroes....remember Oedipus was one,
and Pentheus, in the Bacchae..they had a tragic flaw, often overweening 
pride, hubris, that eventually encompassed their own destruction -- this 
sounds familiar to me.......

just a thought....



Susan McGee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Mar 18 07:10:59 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 02:10:59 EST
Subject: Chapter 25 - more with comments on Dumbledore and his hit squad
Message-ID: <7a.11ff9afc.27e5b983@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14557

"At that moment, Harry fully understood for the first time why people said 
Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort had ever feared. The look upon 
Dumbledore's face as he stared down at the unconscious form of ?Mad-Eye Moody 
was more terrible than Harry could ever have imagined.....There was cold fury 
in every line of the ancient face; a sense of power radiated from Dumbledore 
as though he was giving off burning heat."

We've had a lot of discussion about this......but I want to talk about 
Dumbledore as God. As a former Catholic, I was taught to think of God as 
omniscient and omnipresent. In Lewis' books, Aslan is a Christ-figure, and in 
several of his works, Lewis' talks about God being awe-full...terrible and 
frightening in his goodness....and how you might think you wanted Good but 
when you met him it might be a different story....

Because Dumbledore is the greatest wizard of his time, and can protect Harry, 
and knows a lot, and is my favorite character, doesn't mean that he is 
all-knowing or all-wise. Fake Moody gets into Hogwarts; Dumbledore doesn't 
know about the Marauder's Map, or the four Marauders becoming unregistered 
Animagi -- does he know how abusive Snape is to Harry, etc.?

What's also interesting about this chapter is who he trusts and who he sees 
as powerful. Who goes with him to confront the fake Moody?
McGonagall (can't wait to see Maggie Smith bring power and authority to this 
character) and Snape. He also trusts them to do what he says immediately and 
without question in a crisis..and they trust him. (My re-reading of this 
chapter has caused me to decide that Snape will not turn back to Voldemort).

Also, this recurring rumor that Snape wants to be the Defense Against the 
Dark Arts teacher, but Dumbledore won't let him (with the implication that 
Dumbledore doesn't trust him?). Maybe Snape does; maybe he doesn't. But if he 
does, maybe Dumbledore won't let him because he needs him as the POTIONS 
master...it's Snape that
make's Lupin's very difficult werewolf potion, and the truth serum is 
difficult and highly valuable....

The House Elves -- they are extremely intriguing..powerful magic of their 
own, which is MOSTLY bound to their master --- JKR makes it clear that she 
thinks Hermione's championship of liberation is misguided, but DUMBLEDORE is 
quite willing to treat the house elves respectfully and cheerfully pays 
Dobby. He doesn't demand that they keep his secrets or be respectful, but if 
ONE house elf could be so supportive of Crouch, Senior, are the 100 house 
elves at Hogwarts some of the secret of Dumbledore's power? (And oh, 
goodness, couldn't he spare one for poor Molly Weasley, toiling in the 
vineyards?)

Susan McGee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sun Mar 18 08:09:23 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 08:09:23 -0000
Subject: Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <98rqbi+u772@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <991qfj+mm0b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14558

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
> <bohners at p...> wrote:
> > Spoiler space...
> > 
> > S
> > O
> > Y
> > L
> > E
> > N
> > T
> > 
> > G
> > R
> > E
> > E
> > N
> > 
> > I
> > S
> > 
> > P
> > E
> > O
> > P
> > L
> > E
> > 
> > Rebecca:
> > My second thought is, does Hermione know that Crookshanks has 
> > Kneazle blood in him?  Was that part of the reason she bought him 
> > in the first place?  I could see her doing this, but if she knows,
> > why hasn't she made more use of his Kneazle abilities, or at 
least talked about them (i.e. when defending Crookshanks' virtues to 
Ron in PoA)?
> > It would almost seem that Hermione *doesn't* know that 
Crookshanks is part Kneazle. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

My impression is that Hermione does not know.  Seems as far as the 
trio are concerned, Crookshanks is nothing more than a standard cat, 
albeit a very intelligent one.  It does say in FB that Kneazle owners 
must be licensed, but would this extend to a cat-Kneazle mix?  If 
not, then this makes Herm not knowing a bit stronger.

> > Rebecca:
> > But why on earth not?  She must have read FANTASTIC BEASTS as 
thoroughly as anything else she's ever read for school, and probably 
multiple times.  I'm surprised that she wouldn't pick up on something 
as obvious as that -- I mean, we all did. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I don't remember mentions of Herm reading FB as extensively as "HW: A 
Hist.", but maybe she has, considering what a grind she is.  If she 
does know, another good time for her to mention it would be in the 
Shrieking Shack when Sirius was explaining that Scabbers was really 
Pettigrew.  Sirius does say Crookshanks is the 'most intelligent of 
his kind', but just before this and just after, he also calls him a 
cat.  At this point she could have interjected that her 'cat' was 
part Kneazle. 
 
> > Rebecca:
> > Finally, I suspect that the little detail that Kneazles can guide 
> > their owners home if they are lost is likely to become important 
in a future book. <<<<<<<<<<<

Oh, I agree.  I always expect JKR to refer back to any info she gives 
us... 

> > Rebecca:
> > And are there any incidents already described in the books (PoA, 
> > presumably) which could be attributed to Crookshanks' powers of 
> > location?
> 
> Indigo:
> The only thing that really springs to mind is that Crookshanks 
> apparently is somewhat familiar with the grounds of Hogwarts and 
the Whomping Willow -- he knew where the knot to stop the tree is. 
<<<<<<<<<

That's true.  And, he did know right off that Scabbers was 
an 'unsavoury' and 'suspicious' character.  Of course, that's nothing 
to do with location, but anyway...

> Indigo:
> And didn't it mention in the book the pet shop owner had had a hard 
> time selling him? 
> Maybe Crookshanks was waiting for a wizard he liked...

Sounds right.  He's certainly been a good pet to Herm.  I'm confused 
about the description of Crookshanks' tail.  'Bottlebrush' gave me a 
different image from that of a lion' tail.  My picture of it was 
thick, fat, and furry its entire length.  So, my picture is wrong, 
then?  His tail is supposed to resemble that of a lion?  Also, I'm 
pronouncing the 'K' in Kneazle, as I also do with 'Knut'.  Is that 
wrong, anyone?

Kelley





From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 18 08:37:36 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 02:37:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crookshanks
References: <991qfj+mm0b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001301c0af86$afbab060$7d14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14559

Could there possibly be a connection between Crookshanks and Mrs. Figg? If
she is somehow involved with guarding Harry when he is at the Dursleys, why
not as Crookshanks, when he is at Hogwarts? It kind of fits together, if she
is employed by Dumbledore to watch over Harry, that she is also familiar
with Hogwarts grounds and she could have been around when the Four Marauders
used the Whomping Willow as an entrance to the Shrieking Shack.

Doreen




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 18 10:27:51 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:27:51 -0000
Subject: killing voldemort/ dumbledore cold &   calculating?
In-Reply-To: <3AB27967.2060E80B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9922j7+7abb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14560

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> naama_gat at h... wrote:
> 
> > To return to HP - I don't think there's any moral dilemma in Harry
> > killing Voldy in some legitimate way (not via an Unforgivable 
curse).
> > However, IMO it will resonate better with the books so far if 
Voldy
> > will destroy himself through trying to destroy Harry. It ties in 
with
> > Voldy's first encounter with Harry and provides closure. It also 
makes
> > more sense technicaly, in that Voldy is so powerful, it's
> > hard to see how anybody's powers but his own can harm him.
> 
> So, are you saying that only Harry *can* kill him, since Harry's and
> Voldemort's powers/abilities are tied in some way? Originally 
through
> some connection via the scar, and now more closely from the 
regeneration
> spell? I've thought this might be the case.
> 

Well, what I meant by "his own" was Voldy's own powers, not Harry's. 
On the other hand, your suggestion seems reasonable to me, too. I 
still feel, though, that this connection will prove to be Voldy's 
downfall through his (Voldy's) actions. That is, it doesn't give 
Harry power to destroy Voldy, but if Voldy tries to kill him the 
connection will somehow channel the curse back to him. It's not 
origianl the way I put it (it's exactly like the first curse) but I'm 
sure JKR will make so.


Naama






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Mar 18 09:56:35 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 09:56:35 -0000
Subject: ADMIN/Cross-post: Vote on weekly summaries
Message-ID: <05b601c0af91$b8927aa0$563770c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 14561

Hi everyone

I have added a poll to the Polls section of the Announcements list asking for your views on continuing our scheduled weekly discussions on HPfGU after we've completed GoF (and reached Harry Potter in our schedule of character sketches).  Please use your vote.

Also, take a look at the draft schedule I've posted in the Files section of Announcements (NewWeeklySummaries) and send me your comments.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements/

Thanks

Neil

HPfGU Moderator Team
_____________________________________

Flying-Ford-Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, 
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint 
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything 
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 18 12:37:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:37:02 -0000
Subject: Various bits and pieces 
Message-ID: <992a5f+mfi3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14562

Sorry, FAQ compilers, but I'm doing such a good job consolidating that 
there are too many subjects to list <g>.

I wrote:
>Sinistra fans, your day will come!

Dave wrote:
>And once and for all, we'll know what his/her gender really is!

When I read this, it came back to me that I had a dream in which I saw 
Sinistra's first name written down, and it was completely unrevealing. 
 Too funny!

Doreen wrote:
>I was rather disappointed to find out that ships had to be about 
living persons.

Not at all.  Look at all the Snape/Lily shippers.  There is also a 
lively shipping trade in nonhumans, e.g. a certain pairing of A Boy 
and His Owl.  We HPforGU listies don't discriminate on the basis of 
biology or biological status.  Let your imagination wander where it 
will!

I think Peeves and Sir Cadogan are better suited--both insane, short, 
and annoying to students.  The Fat Lady has a crush on a rather stuffy 
baron on the 4th floor, but hasn't yet worked up the nerve to go 
visit, even though it's been 125 years now.  

Ender wrote:
> Harry's ability to fight the imperio curse would have been
> valuable information for Voldemort and his peeps.

Catlady wrote:
>Except that apparently Crouch didn't pass that info to Voldemort 
before
>V attacked Harry, or else V didn't realise that the info was 
valuable.

I wonder if this is another example of Voldemort's arrogance.  Perhaps 
Crouch did tell him, but Voldemort thought, "He might be able to 
resist Crouch's Imperius, but just let him try to resist mine!"  

Catlady wrote:
>It is good to know Ron's birthday, but Ron really seem like a Pisces 
to
>the rest of you?

I think it's safe to say that Jo pays no attention whatsoever to 
astrology in choosing her characters' birthdays.  Harry, as we know, 
should have been born in midwinter, because Leos are never short, nor 
do they lose their parents at an early age.  

Sorry, I enjoy the astrological posts 'cause they're fun and 
interesting, but I can't take the idea seriously that everyone born in 
a particular month shares a personality.

Catlady:
> I'm not at all sure that a girl of 20 is mature enough to make
>life-long decisions that she won't regret later.

Like marrying James Potter and having a baby?  <g>  Thank heaven for 
immature decisions.

Catlady:
>However, I CANNOT believe in a $7.35 Galleon ($51 wand), just as some
>people CANNOT believe in a 1000-student Hogwarts. I continue to 
believe
>in a $25-$40 Galleon.

Yeah, the wand prices seem low to me.  Maybe Ollivander usually 
charges over 20G for a wand, but gave Harry a substantial 
discount--out of sympathy?  reverence?  guilt about Voldemort's wand? 
 On the other hand, he probably knows money is not a problem for 
Harry.  He seems to know a lot of things.

Scott:
>Even though us Muggles can't get to Diagon alley, or see it. 

*We* might not be able to, but the Grangers did (they changed money at 
Gringott's).  Special dispensation?

Anne wrote:
>Voldemort can mean either "flight of death" or "robbery of death"

Both connote a disdain for mortality.  TR chose his new name well.

Christian alerted us to this quote from the newspaper VG:
> Stouffer's book was a big success in USA when it was published

Geez...I must've missed that publishing phenomenon entirely.  I feel 
so out of the loop.

Reporters who just reprint people's press releases uncritically really 
give their honorable profession a bad name.

I hope Ms. Stouffer's lawyers are working on contingency (is that the 
right term?  i.e. they get paid only if she wins?).  Otherwise, they 
are exploiting her horribly.  She seems to have an ego that is quite 
out of proportion to her ability, and someone unscrupulous has 
encouraged her to think she actually has a case.  

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
 "I've told you before, Ron, keep your nose out 
 if you like it the shape it is.  Can't see why
 you would, but--"
                 -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
------------------------------------------------




From ender_w at msn.com  Sun Mar 18 13:20:28 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 08:20:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Various bits and pieces 
References: <992a5f+mfi3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003001c0afae$34083fa0$8feb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 14563


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amy Z 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 7:37 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Various bits and pieces  

  Ender wrote:
  > Harry's ability to fight the imperio curse would have been
  > valuable information for Voldemort and his peeps.

  Catlady wrote:
  >Except that apparently Crouch didn't pass that info to Voldemort 
  before
  >V attacked Harry, or else V didn't realise that the info was valuable.

  Amy wrote:
  >>I wonder if this is another example of Voldemort's arrogance.  Perhaps 
  >>Crouch did tell him, but Voldemort thought, "He might be able to 
  >>resist Crouch's Imperius, but just let him try to resist >>mine!"  

  That's what I was thinking as well.  Isn't it true that Harry only partially resists Moody's imperio curse? I don't have my GoF book with me so I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that Harry didn't completely throw off "Moody's" curse, but instead only succeeded in banging up his shins as he half obeyed and half resisted.  This detail may have been reported to Voldemort who then believed that he, with his superior power, would have no trouble getting Harry to completely obey under the curse.

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 18 13:46:46 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 05:46:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Troll-Be-Gone! *poof*
In-Reply-To: <990mgj+p975@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010318134646.6085.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14564

> In defense of myself and others in this group, though, if you read
> the claims Stouffer makes on her site, you might understand better 
> the level of anger her claims tend to generate among HP readers. It

> is pretty outrageous, and blatantly opportunistic. While I would 
> agree that stooping to that level might not be edifying, I can 
> hardly call Stouffer an innocent victim. I think the person who 
> came here to post about her was indeed baiting us.


Stouffer and her lawyers are probably everything that everyone on the
list says they are.  But that's no excuse for offensive name-calling.

And I-was-provoked-so-I-had-to-respond? Come on. Would JKR let Ron or
Harry or Hermione get away with that?  One of the great things about
these books is the lack of passivity in its children characters. 
They have choices to make about they way they react and they make the
right ones even if that is not immediately the most gratifying. 
(Otherwise Draco Malfoy would have been made to eat his own head way
back in Book One.)

I don't know about the rest of you but I've got enough stress and
pressures in my own life without getting steamed about something in
JKR's.  So let her lawyers handle it (they'll be paid enough).

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 18 15:00:25 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:00:25 -0000
Subject: Various bits and pieces
In-Reply-To: <003001c0afae$34083fa0$8feb183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <992ii9+cp2t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14565

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Amy Z 
>   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
>   Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 7:37 AM
>   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Various bits and pieces  
> 
>   Ender wrote:
>   > Harry's ability to fight the imperio curse would have been
>   > valuable information for Voldemort and his peeps.
> 
>   Catlady wrote:
>   >Except that apparently Crouch didn't pass that info to Voldemort 
>   before
>   >V attacked Harry, or else V didn't realise that the info was 
valuable.
> 
>   Amy wrote:
>   >>I wonder if this is another example of Voldemort's arrogance.  
Perhaps 
>   >>Crouch did tell him, but Voldemort thought, "He might be able 
to 
>   >>resist Crouch's Imperius, but just let him try to resist 
>>mine!"  
> 
>   That's what I was thinking as well.  Isn't it true that Harry 
only partially resists Moody's imperio curse? I don't have my GoF 
book with me so I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that Harry 
didn't completely throw off "Moody's" curse, but instead only 
succeeded in banging up his shins as he half obeyed and half 
resisted.  
> 

But that was only the first time. After that "Moody" (good idea, 
Susan) made him go through four more Imperios until he could throw 
them off completely.

That, BTW, is related to a question I've been mulling over for some 
time - what do you think is the relationship between a wizard's 
powers and his ability to resist the Imperius curse? For instance, 
Crouch Sr. is described as "powerfully magic", and yet he succumbed 
to Voldy's curse. OK, so that can be explained by Voldy's being more 
powerful than him. But Moody (the real one) remained under Crouch 
Jr.'s curse for months on end. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that 
Crouch Jr. is more magically powerful than the best Auror there ever 
was. So - what makes one wizard more or less susceptible to the 
Imperio? Is it strength of character and doesn't have anything to do 
with magical ability? Or perhaps magical ability is correlated in 
some measure with strength of character (however that is defined)? Or 
maybe, the ability to resist the curse comes from strenght of 
character whereas the ability to dominate with the curse comes from 
magica power?

Naama, whose so happy that she has at last submitted her long (long!) 
overdue paper so she can finally turn her mind to really important 
things .. 




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 18 15:05:15 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 07:05:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Imperio
In-Reply-To: <003001c0afae$34083fa0$8feb183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <20010318150515.791.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14566


--- ender_w <ender_w at msn.com> wrote:
> 
>   
> 
>   
> 
>   That's what I was thinking as well.  Isn't it true
> that Harry only partially resists Moody's imperio
> curse? I don't have my GoF book with me so I may be
> wrong, but I seem to remember that Harry didn't
> completely throw off "Moody's" curse, but instead
> only succeeded in banging up his shins as he half
> obeyed and half resisted.  This detail may have been
> reported to Voldemort who then believed that he,
> with his superior power, would have no trouble
> getting Harry to completely obey under the curse.
> 

But then Moody/Crouch went on in later classes to work
with Harry until he could throw off the curse
entirely.

Anne

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 18 15:20:07 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:20:07 -0000
Subject: Troll-Be-Gone! *poof*
In-Reply-To: <20010318134646.6085.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <992jn7+942q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14567

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

> I don't know about the rest of you but I've got enough stress and
> pressures in my own life without getting steamed about something in
> JKR's.  So let her lawyers handle it (they'll be paid enough).
> 


Magda, with due respect, I think you have made your point, it is a 
good point, and it is time for you to let go now. 

You are as steamed up as anyone on this thread, and it shows. You have 
made your point and you don't need to turn it into a lecture. We are 
grown-ups, remember?

Could we just put this aside now and move on? The person who posted 
the Stouffer post has gotten under all of our skins and nipping at 
each other like this is not good for the list.

I apologize if I have offended you in anyway. 




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Mar 18 15:31:20 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 09:31:20 -0600
Subject: Trolls & Stouffer
References: <20010318134646.6085.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AB4D4C8.99C91A85@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14568

Hi --

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Stouffer and her lawyers are probably everything that everyone on the
> list says they are.  But that's no excuse for offensive name-calling.

While I agree with the premise that we should all just ignore a troll
baiting us, the fact remains that it is pretty much impossible with a
group this size.  Someone is always going to respond.  In an ideal
world, we would all take the high road & just ignore this person until
they went away.  But ... it's just not realistic.  And, once someone has
joined in the fray, it's not long before lots of other people are
chiming in with their opinions.

As far as how those opinions are expressed, I haven't so far seen anyone
stray too far away from good netiquette.  It would be best if no one
resorted to name-calling; however, as Suzanne pointed out, Stouffer
generates a fairly emotional response for many of us.

A friendly reminder to everyone (newbies & oldies): please refrain from
criticizing others for engaging in a conversation thread that you
dislike.  As long as it's on-topic and not contentious (personal attacks
amongst members of the group), the Moderators will allow it to
continue.  For those members who would rather not hear more about that
particular topic, they should simply delete or skip those posts.  This
is meant to be a discussion forum where people can discuss a variety of
HP topics that interest them.  Not everything will be interesting to
everyone ... but we usually do have more than one topic of interest
going at the same time.  And, the best way to divert attention away from
a topic is to start a new thread of conversation.  Sometimes the topic
you dislike or find offensive will just disappear in short order.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Mar 18 16:17:27 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:17:27 -0000
Subject: Chapter 35 - more, and more and more
In-Reply-To: <103.68692b.27e5b948@aol.com>
Message-ID: <992n2n+npen@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14569

Hmm...
The fathers and sons relationships thing is very interesting to me.  I 
noticed how exceedingly proud Amos Diggory was of his own son, Cedric 
(should we have picked up on that and known Cedric was doomed?), to 
the point that he wouldn't even tolerate Cedric's humility.  He 
assumed nothing but the best for his son.

As for Barty Sr and Barty Jr, I believe Jr went over to the Dark Side 
almost in defiance of his father's obsession with putting an end to 
all Dark Wizards.  It reminds me of the film "Traffic", where Michael 
Douglas' daughter becomes crack addicted right under her father's nose 
while he is going back and forth to DC trying to put an end to drugs.  
Neglecting your kids and not knowing you are doing so can have harmful 
effects indeed.  As a high school teacher in the Bronx, I've seen it 
many times.  And what a way to get your parents' attention; doing 
exactly what you know they hate...

If Barty Sr isn't around to really teach right from wrong to his son, 
what would stop Barty Jr from making bad decisions?  We all know that 
sometimes it just feels good to be bad, and that's what Barty Jr did, 
without caring that bad is bad, no matter what.  I also liked the 
comment about Voldie becoming a father figure to Barty Jr - who else 
was rewarding him for working hard?  His own father certainly wasn't.  
Dark Wizards are almost like a cult, picking up lonely people and 
brain washing them to believe that being a Death Eater is an honor, 
not a disgrace.

As for Barty Jr having so much power when he had been isolated from 
wizard society for so long... Remember when Barty Sr was a bit crazy 
in the woods when Harry found him, he mentioned his son's performance 
at school, letting us know that Barty Sr was a Hermione-type student.  
He also had a lot of help - from Pettigrew and from Voldie himself, 
who could still talk and think like a Dark Wizard even without his 
body.  That's how I justified his ability to do what he did.

On a different note - I think Voldie needed to wait until June for 
Harry to use the portkey because he needed all that time to get ready.  
He was just starting to get strength back, he had to organize the 
meeting place, get Wormtail all set up, etc.  He just needed that 
rehabilitation time, you know?

Hope I made sense (it is Sunday morning, after all)




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Sun Mar 18 16:17:28 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:17:28 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Logo for HPforGU
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINAEDEDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 14570

Hello all,

The time is upon us we all can vote to make an important decision. Every man,
woman and child (not forgetting the goat, owl, car or rock (the rock having
gained voting rights as per the rules described in message 613 from the OT
Chatter group <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/613>)) has
the chance to vote and decide on the logo that will be used to promote the Harry
Potter for Grown Ups Internet presence.


I take this opportunity to thank everyone who has deigned logos for us. Your
efforts are much appreciated.


The logos are viewable on the graphics group:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics>
Go to Files and then Logos and then the two files are logos.htm and logos2.htm
(links below).
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logos.htm>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logos2.htm>


Each of the logos has a number to the left of it. These are the logo
identification numbers, and you will need to remember the number of your
favourite logo so that you can vote for it.

NOTE: There is no logo number 12, but it is listed in the poll. This is because
for me to change anything on the poll would delete all votes currently cast in
the poll, something that is not worth the hassle involved.


To vote you have to go to the Announcements group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements>. Once there you head towards
the polls section and there you will find the logo poll
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements/surveys?id=584551>.  You will
need to join the Announcements group, if you have not done so already. Joining
the Announcements list will benefit your life by giving you information about
Harry Potter stuff (see message 14221
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/14221> for more information
about the Announcement group).

You have until the end of this month (31st March) to cast your vote. There will
be no recounts.


If you have any questions or problems then feel free to contact me and,
hopefully, I will be able to supply you with an answer.

Simon Branford





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 18 16:22:28 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:22:28 -0500
Subject: One for our side (anit-WB site-stealing)
References: <992n2n+npen@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <025301c0afc7$a081fcc0$10ccfea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14571

http://www.killermovies.com/articles/newsid_98474676185416.shtm


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Mar 18 16:33:58 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:33:58 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: HP-Announcements includes News Links
References: <992n2n+npen@eGroups.com> <025301c0afc7$a081fcc0$10ccfea9@computer>
Message-ID: <3AB4E375.E3131182@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14572

Hi --

Friendly reminder: news links belong on HP-Announcements!

Thanks --

Penny

Denise R wrote:

> http://www.killermovies.com/articles/newsid_98474676185416.shtm
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
  [www.debticated.com]

>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
> the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort
> through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
> your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
> to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
> hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 18 16:43:41 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:43:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HP-Announcements includes News Links
References: <992n2n+npen@eGroups.com> <025301c0afc7$a081fcc0$10ccfea9@computer> <3AB4E375.E3131182@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <027b01c0afca$a01ec6c0$10ccfea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14573

Argh!!!!!

Penny, I'm sorry.

I can't figure out what goes where anymore, lol.

At least I know where to put recipes?

Grins...

and chatscripts..

----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 11:33 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: HP-Announcements includes News Links


> Hi --
>
> Friendly reminder: news links belong on HP-Announcements!
>
> Thanks --
>
> Penny
>
> Denise R wrote:
>
> > http://www.killermovies.com/articles/newsid_98474676185416.shtm
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   [www.debticated.com]
>
> >
> > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> >
> > >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
> > the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort
> > through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
> >
> > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
> > your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter
> > to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
> > hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
> >
> > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
> > hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Mar 18 16:56:10 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:56:10 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: OT messages to move to the OTChatter List (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AB4E8AA.12A485F7@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14574

Hi everyone --

Starting with March 12th, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to
the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup. This is in order to make it easier to
sort through messages and reduce overall message volume on this list.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter

You will need to join this list, but as with any yahoogroup, you may set
your subscription options to (a) individual emails, (b) digests or (c)
webview only.  There are about 60 or so members over there already, and
the message volume promises to be high.  So, if you might not care much
about OT posts or care only now & again, the webview option might be a
good choice.

On this OT-Chatter list, you may discuss anything unrelated to Harry
Potter (subject to the rule against inflammatory topics - see below),
and you should, in addition, discuss the following
HP-related things on this list rather than the main HPforGrownups list
(this is *not* an exhaustive list):

*** Fanfic recommendations (recommending/discussing a fanfic by someone
else - unless
it can be tied to canon)

*** Listings of HP merchandise collections

*** Answering a roll call (e.g. for the H/H Cruiseliner or the Good Ship
R/H)

*** Detailing your results on a HP Quiz or Sorting Hat test

*** Short, fun posts, such as 'Tom Swifties'

*** Shipper Debates not supported by examples from canon

*** Opinions on HP artwork, book covers and other paraphernalia

*** Definitions or explanations of British words, phrases and traditions
related to HP

***  Exchanges of cultural information between the Americans and the
Brits

*** Anything that you would preface with "This is slightly OT but ..."

We wish this area of the club to remain friendly and welcoming, so the
Moderators will step in if any thread appears to be veering in a
contentious direction.   Examples of prohibited subjects include
politics and The Holocaust.

This message will be resent every day for the next 2 weeks.  If you've
read it once, there will be no need to re-read it.  We just want to be
sure that everyone gets the message.  Don't be surprised if you get an
e-howler (or at least a friendly reminder) from one of the Moderators if

you violate the OT policy.

Thanks for listening (more ADMIN messages to come -- please continue to
read them as they are important).

Penny
The Moderator Team






From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Mar 18 16:57:28 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:57:28 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Announcements List is up & running (Repeat)
Message-ID: <3AB4E8F8.BB2EEFA2@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14575

Hi everyone --

Your Moderator Team has been hard at work, looking for ways to reduce
message volume and keep the main group friendly & organized.

We've set up another sister Yahoogroup -- the HP4GU - Announcements
list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements

This list is intended for those who want to receive announcements about
HP news, book release dates, fanfic plugs by the author, notification of
new merchandise, as well as periodic summaries of what the main group
has been discussing (including those members who cannot cope with the
high posting rate on the main list).

Please note that we are requiring the types of announcements that you
see listed below be made *only* to the Announcements List.  This will
reduce message volume on the main group.  The only messages that will be
duplicated will be the ADMIN messages posted to the main group and
copied to the Announcements list.

To manage the volume on this list, it is a moderated group.  This means
that one of the Moderators on the Moderator Team must approve your
message before it gets sent out to the list.

The following announcements are permitted (not an exhaustive list -
please check with the Moderators if you are unsure about your message):

*** The HPforGrownUps Newsletter (edited by Jeralyn and Ebony)

*** ADMIN messages from the Moderator Team (copies of those posted to
the main group)

*** Announcements of chat room sessions

*** Announcements of new discussion summaries posted to the main list

*** Plugs of fanfiction (one plug per chapter by the author)

*** Plugs of HP-related events (including regional Members' meetings)

*** Plugs of new HP websites or of new HP information on other websites

*** News releases, with links (this should include things related to the
Warner Brothers' movie)

*** Fun HP links, such as Sorting Hat quizzes

*** Alerts to new HP merchandise

*** JKR sightings; JKR events (book signings, tours, TV appearances,
chats, etc.)

*** Information on HP fan clubs

Again, we encourage everyone to join this group as well.  The message
volume should remain relatively low & focused (because the Moderators
must approve each message, you can be assured that the subject heading
will be relevant!).

Please remember that beginning March 12th, fanfic plugs, merchandise
sightings, news links and the like need to be posted *only* to the
Announcements list.  This message will be repeated several times over
the next few weeks to be sure everyone is aware of the changes.

Thanks --

Penny
The Moderator Team









From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Sun Mar 18 18:30:20 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:30:20 -0400
Subject: Ron a Pisces?
Message-ID: <3AB4FEBB.D9736AA@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 14576

   Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:00:29 -0800
   From: Catlady <catlady at wicca.net>
Subject: 

> Ron's birthday is on March 1st

It is good to know Ron's birthday, but Ron really seem like a Pisces to
the rest of you? Pisceans are supposed to have a tendency to mysticism
and getting lost in daydreams and often come across as wishy-washy
because it's hard for them to decide between two different things that
they want both (the two fish of the symbol going in opposite
directions). I thought it more likely that Ron would be a stubborn
Taurean or a hot-headed Aries.
***

Well, I have mixed views on astrology. I never read the daily or monthly
horoscopes in magazines etc. because I can envision someone just making
them up and wishing I got paid to do that.

OTOH, I have seen some astounding results from having my birth chart
done. Which belong on another list. ;-)

As a bonafide Pisces, I must disagree that Pisces are all just the Prof.
Trelawney types. The two fish that represent Pisces can also be
interpreted to the dual nature of a Pisces - we can indeed be dreamy and
off in our own world - but we also have the ability to keep our feet
firmly planted on the ground and to be focussed on the matter at hand. I
work as a Collections agent, I call people about their overdue accounts
and try to coax them into paying their bills. I couldn't do that if I
was always building castles in the air. (The Collections dept is 65%
Pisces, by the way).

So I can see Ron as a Pisces. When he looks into the Mirror of Erised,
he sees all his dreams materialize - his hopes of being recognized by
his family, his dreams of being Head Boy, etc. He does have dreams, even
if he isn't always expressing them or trying to bring them to reality.
And he's also practical and grounded in reality - it's him that is
always attempting to bring Hermione down to earth from her own form of
reality that knowledge is everything and rules are never ever to be
broken.

And as someone has already mentioned - the theory that Ron may be a Seer
who doesn't know it ties in neatly with being a Pisces. What he can
imagine as a lark in Divinations class comes true - he just hasn't made
the connection yet.

Angela

-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
    "There is in the worst of fortune the best of chances 
        for a happy change."    Euripedes



From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 18 18:53:12 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:53:12 -0600
Subject: Danielle Radcliff gallions, sickles, & knuts
Message-ID: <004001c0afdc$b08d73a0$0f14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14577


> There are pictures of Daniel Radcliffle's appearance on Comic Relief
> (also known as Red Nose Day) available at:
> http://www.killermovies.com/articles/newsid_9848768117087.shtm
> 
> Included are pictures showing Stephen Fry looking for the scar on
> Daniel's forehead and one of the cheque from Gringotts Bank.
> Simon
> 
> Danielle looks like Harry should in that picture with Fry pushing 
his hair
> back .. and the last picture .. there is that smile! The one we see 
in the
> Trailer.
> 
> When asked about how filming was going, and if he was enjoying 
himself, he
> replied, "Yeah, its really, really fantastic".
> Daniel bought in a check for "421,699 Gallions 3 Sickles and 13 
Knuts", or
> to us Muggles ?2,100,062 ($3 Million).
> 
> Doreen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Mar 18 18:54:46 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:54:46 -0000
Subject: Moody in Disguise (Chapter 35 Filk)
Message-ID: <99309m+crgn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14578

Moody in Disguise 

(To the tune of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds)

Dedicated to Susan McGee

(The Scene: The office of the Dark Arts Professor.  DUMBLEDORE and 
Company  have just rescued HARRY from Barty Crouch, Jr, who has been 
impersonating Alastor Moody. Understandably enough with all he's just 
been through, HARRY can do no more than babble incoherently)

HARRY
Picture yourself with a corpse and a Portkey
With terrified screams and panicky cries 
Somebody pulls you, you stagger behind him,
An Auror with a mad whirling eye

Profanely he glowers this fellow so mean
Wishing to bash in your head
Boasting of treach'ry, this man with the mad eye
Is he gone?  

DUMBLEDORE, McGONAGALL, SNAPE
Moody in disguise through Dark Arts
Moody in disguise through Dark Arts
Moody in disguise through Dark Arts

HARRY
Follow me down to that brute's DADA office
Where death-eating wizards drink Polyjuice pie
The headmaster glares as he's seen in the Foe-Glass
But not by the man with mad eyes

New Prof is toxic, that is for sure
He wanted to take me away
Can I go back, show my face to the crowd?
Are they gone? 

DUMBLEDORE, McGONAGALL, SNAPE
Moody in disguise through Dark Arts
Moody in disguise through Dark Arts
Crouch, the tiger, hid, dragged in Dark Arts

HARRY
Look at him there in that trunk where they dunked him
The genuine Auror with the whirling mad eye
Now someone please turn me over to Pomfrey:
This boy needs to get some shut-eye
.

(Exit all)

CMC





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Mar 18 19:03:04 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:03:04 -0000
Subject: Ron a Pisces?
In-Reply-To: <3AB4FEBB.D9736AA@nb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <9930p8+ejj4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14579

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Angela Boyko <aboyko at n...> wrote:
>    Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:00:29 -0800
>    From: Catlady <catlady at w...>
> Subject: 
> 
> > Ron's birthday is on March 1st
> 
> It is good to know Ron's birthday, but Ron really seem like a 
Pisces to
> the rest of you?

Well, I don't believe in astrology, because I'm a Taurus and we 
Tauruses are very skeptical.

  - CMC




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 18 19:06:45 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:06:45 -0000
Subject: Discussion summary: Chapter 35 Veritaserum
In-Reply-To: <f5.824a014.27e5b8f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <993105+lji4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14580

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:

> "Moody"(in classic villain manner) tells Harry far more than
> necessary and therefore provides time for a rescue. (snip)
> [Tells Harry] how he yearns to know that Lord Voldemort tortured
> those he hates the most (the Death Eaters who walked free) 
> "Tell me he hurt them, Harry". 
> "Moody" boasts (almost at leisure) about how he protected Harry
> during the contest and engineered his victory (If it had not been
> for Cedric's decision not to take the cup, would Harry have won?). 
> (snip) Harry blurts out that "Moody" is mad; 

The reason that "Moody" spent so much time talking (besides helping 
JKR by explaining the mystery as well as providing time for a rescue) 
is because (Harry is right) He IS Mad. He is literally raving as in 
raving loonie. He has a lot of years of verbiage to make up for, as 
surely his father, with the Imperius Curse on Junior, did not 
allow him to spend time mouthing off about the wonderfulness of the 
Dark Lord.

The same way that Junior never imagined that Harry would fail to read 
the Magical Water Plants book right there in his dorm room (I suppose 
he expected Harry to ask everyone in Fryffindor House for help with 
the Task, and Neville would have said: "There is this plant mentioned 
in this book"), he never imagined that Harry would smash right 
through the hedge wall to rescue Cedric from Viktor's Cruciatis, so 
Cedic would not have reached the Cup at all. (Would have suffered 
temporarily from Cruciatis but would still be alive.)

As Peg Kerr mentioned in re Harry having decided that he and Cedric 
would share the Cup equally leading to Cedric's death, JKR making 
Harry's most noble acts lead to the tragedy for which he blames 
himself is a magnigicent way for the author to torture the character, 
but it also, no doubt unintentionally, serves as an example of "why" 
not to get involved....




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 18 19:18:05 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:18:05 -0000
Subject: FBWTFTquestions...
In-Reply-To: <98qq24+9uaa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9931ld+1of9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14581

--- About the beasts in FB:
> >   S
> >   P
> >   O
> >   I
> >   L
> >   E
> >   R
> >   S
> > 
> >   A
> >   B
> >   O
> >   U
> >   N
> >   D
> > 
> >   B
> >   E
> >   L
> >   O
> >   W
        
Several people were wondering why certain beasts were left out 
of "Fanastic Beasts" ... JKR has mentioned that she had all of 
these "other beasts" in her head, that she had not written about in 
the HP books and that "Fantastic Beasts" gave her the perfect 
opportunity to put them down on paper. So, it makes sense that she 
did not include all of the ones we know about from the books. 
(although, I do wish that she had included them. It would have made 
the book more complete & realistic, given that Hermione used them for 
reference books)

Doreen




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 18 19:48:37 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:48:37 -0000
Subject: Chapter 35 - more, and more and more
In-Reply-To: <103.68692b.27e5b948@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9933el+a5jr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14582

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
(some very good observations on fathers and sons)
> 
> 2) What about Barty Crouch, Jr. and Lord Voldemort.....some have
> suggested that Barty's worship has an erotic base --

G'rrr. Junior was only like 8 years old when Tom Marvolo Riddle (a 
biological human wizard) turned into Lord Voldemort (an immortal 
snake-man, who, I am CONVINCED, has neither sexual desire nor sexual 
ability).

I think Junior inherited a gene for fanaticism from both side: 
Sirius told us about Senior's fanatic opposition to the Death Eaters 
(which would not require a genetic/psychological tendency to 
fanaticism!), and Mother's demand to spend her last days as a 
prisoner with Dementors in Azkaban in order to free her awful son 
sounds like a fanatic level of mother-love to me. That Junior became 
a fanatically loyal follower of V rather than a fanatic opponent of V 
or a fanatic follower of some Quidditch team is kind of random -- 
that he sought out what his father hated or that the DE cult seeks 
out convertible people...





From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 18 19:52:31 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 13:52:31 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 35 - fathers & sons
References: <992n2n+npen@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008401c0afe4$f9123c20$0f14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14583

From: <meboriqua at aol.com>

Hmm...
The fathers and sons relationships thing is very interesting to me.

As for Barty Sr and Barty Jr, I believe Jr went over to the Dark Side
almost in defiance of his father's obsession with putting an end to
all Dark Wizards.  It reminds me of the film "Traffic", where Michael
Douglas' daughter becomes crack addicted right under her father's nose
while he is going back and forth to DC trying to put an end to drugs.
Neglecting your kids and not knowing you are doing so can have harmful
effects indeed.  As a high school teacher in the Bronx, I've seen it
many times.  And what a way to get your parents' attention; doing
exactly what you know they hate...
<snip>

Could this be what happens to the character who develops in an interesting
way in book five? Could it be Dursley, against his parents' wishes, doing
that thing which they hate the most? Being interested in becoming a wizard?

Just an odd thought,
Doreen






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 18 19:58:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:58:01 -0000
Subject: Diggorys
In-Reply-To: <992n2n+npen@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <993409+8q8v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14584

meboriqua wrote:

> I noticed how exceedingly proud Amos Diggory was of his own son, 
Cedric 
>(should we have picked up on that and known Cedric was doomed?), to 
>the point that he wouldn't even tolerate Cedric's humility. 

This is my take on Cedric (and his dad).  My impression was that 
Cedric's sense of honor kept him from telling Amos the whole story.  
All Amos knows about the Hufflepuff-Gryffindor match, e.g., is that 
Harry "fell off his broom."  This doesn't really tell the story, and 
Amos would understand a lot better if Cedric told him, "Harry was 
attacked by Dementors in the middle of the match," but sharing that 
would really have been unfair to Harry--more so than letting Amos 
think that Harry just fell off his broom.  This isn't humility (it 
makes Harry look like a worse flier than he is, in fact), but it's 
very admirable.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I've got two Neptunes here," said Harry after a while, frowning 
 down at his piece of parchment, "that can't be right, can it?"
   "Aaaaah," said Ron, imitating Professor Trelawney's mystical
 whisper, "when two Neptunes appear in the sky, it is a sure sign
 that a midget in glasses is being born, Harry. . . ."
                                      -HP and the Goblet of Fire 
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From skywalker1 at ibm.net  Sun Mar 18 20:26:19 2001
From: skywalker1 at ibm.net (skywalker1 at ibm.net)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 20:26:19 -0000
Subject: Rowling a U.S. citizen?
Message-ID: <9935lb+qq9g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14585

  I don't mean to bring up this whole nasty Stouffer mess again but 
her lawsuit states that J.K. is a citizen of the United States??? Her 
web site repeats this claim with an image of a supposed certificate.  
Can anyone shed any light on this???
  I'm sorry if this has already been discussed (I couldn't find it 
with a search).

Brian




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 18 20:36:33 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:36:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rowling a U.S. citizen?
References: <9935lb+qq9g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d401c0afeb$1fd67e60$0f14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14586

Snippets from JKR bios:

Though born in Bristol, she grew up in the Forest of Dean on the Welsh
borders,

After graduating in French and classics at Exeter University, she took up a
post teaching English in Portugal. She met and married a Portuguese
journalist, Jorge Arantes, by whom she had her daughter, Jessica.
But the marriage did not last and she moved to Edinburgh to be near her
sister when Jessica was four months old.

Nowhere did it say she was a US citizen. She only visited the US for the
first time after the books became popular.

Doreen

----- Original Message -----
From: <skywalker1 at ibm.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 2:26 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rowling a U.S. citizen?


  I don't mean to bring up this whole nasty Stouffer mess again but
her lawsuit states that J.K. is a citizen of the United States??? Her
web site repeats this claim with an image of a supposed certificate.
Can anyone shed any light on this???
  I'm sorry if this has already been discussed (I couldn't find it
with a search).

Brian



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From joy0823 at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 18 21:01:20 2001
From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:01:20 -0500
Subject: Snape's Puzzle
Message-ID: <005a01c0afee$95d1b640$c7a10e41@mtgmry1.md.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14587

In SS, Snape's enchantment to guard the stone involves bottles containing
poison, wine, and potions to walk through fire.  Hermione puzzles through
some clues, and figures out which bottle holds which liquid.  Has anyone
worked out which bottle was which?  I spent awhile on this on my last
reread, and I want to see if I did it right.  I hope this hasn't been beaten
to death already!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
~Joy~
http://www.geocities.com/joy0823
Last Movie Seen:  "The Mexican" - 4 out of 5 stars
Current Book:  "From the Corner of his Eye" by Dean Koontz
------------------------------------------------------------------------




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 18 20:59:19 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:59:19 -0500
Subject: YOUNG READERS  (A review of QTtA and FB&WtFT)
Message-ID: <004401c0afee$4d463d60$10ccfea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14588

YOUNG READERS
Any property as popular as Harry Potter is bound to have tie-ins.  There have been calendars, puzzles, games, and those strange little collectible stones.

But none of them is as charming and amusing as the two little companion books author J.K. Rowling has created.  These titles, short as they are, flesh out parts of Harry's world, and Potter fans will love them.

Quidditch Through the Ages by Rowling alter-ego Kennilworthy Whisp, and Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them by Newt Scamander, are being released by Scholastic for 3.99 each.  The net proceeds will go to charity.

The books are referenced in the Potter titles and are meant to look as though they came directly from the magical world.  Quidditch Through the Ages, a history of the wizarding world's most popular sport, is reproduced from a copy in Harry's school library.

Fantastic Beasts, a duplicate of yuong wizard Harry's own textbook, categorized all kinds of magical creatures.  It's covered with notes and comments from Harry and his friends, just like a child's schoolbook would be--an endearing touch from Rowling and a clever way to remind readers about his adventures.

Quidditch Through the Ages is a thorough telling of the game's history, its spread throughout the world and all the major teams.  It has a section about the racing brooms used in the sport, but unfortunately omits the Firebolt Harry uses, perhaps because that top-of-the-line broom is such a recent addition.

Rowling has written both titles with the same humor and wit she's brought to her other books.  They are amazingly imaginative; too bad they aren't longer.

The book proceeds are going to a fund  established by Comic Relief U.K.  That organization, not affiliated with the United States charity of the same name, will use the money for children's causes.


Deepti Hajela
Associated Press
Copied from the Akron Beacon Journal, page D5, 
Issued March 18, 2001

            ~Dee~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Get ICQ'd!  21282374


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Sun Mar 18 21:59:50 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:59:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Various bits and pieces
References: <992ii9+cp2t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c0aff6$c27a8980$53e8183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 14589


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: naama_gat at hotmail.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 10:00 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Various bits and pieces


  --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "ender_w" <ender_w at m...> wrote:
  > 
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: Amy Z 
  >   To: HPforGrownups at y... 
  >   Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 7:37 AM
  >   Subject: [HPforGrownups] Various bits and pieces  
  > 
  >   Ender wrote:
  >   > Harry's ability to fight the imperio curse would have >   >been valuable information for Voldemort and his peeps.
  > 
  >   Catlady wrote:
  >   >Except that apparently Crouch didn't pass that info to >   >Voldemort before V attacked Harry, or else V didn't >    >    >realise that the info was valuable.
  > 
  >   Amy wrote:
  >   >>I wonder if this is another example of Voldemort's >arrogance.  Perhaps Crouch did tell him, but Voldemort >>thought, "He might be able to resist Crouch's Imperius, but >just let him try to resist mine!"  
  > 
  >   

  >That's what I was thinking as well.  Isn't it true that Harry only partially resists Moody's imperio curse? I don't >have my GoF book with me so I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that Harry didn't completely throw off "Moody's" >curse, but instead only succeeded in banging up his shins as he half obeyed and half 
  >resisted.  
  > 
  Naama replied:
  >>But that was only the first time. After that "Moody" (good idea, Susan) made him go through four more Imperios until he >>could throw them off completely.


  Ahhh!  See what happenes when one is away from one's Harry Potter books for too long?  One makes silly, uninformed statements.  Thankyou for clearing that up, Naama.



  >That, BTW, is related to a question I've been mulling over for some 
  >time - what do you think is the relationship between a wizard's 
  >powers and his ability to resist the Imperius curse? 


  Maybe there are different magical talents.  Just as wands are especially powerful in one thing or another (Lily's wand was good for charms while James' was good for transfiguration), perhaps wizards, too are talented in some areas and not others.  It does seem odd, however, that an auror, trained to fight dark wizards who use the unforgivable curses, would not be able to fight of the imperio curse even a little bit.  

  ender


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eccleston at clara.co.uk  Sun Mar 18 21:55:26 2001
From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 21:55:26 -0000
Subject: Rowling a U.S. citizen?
In-Reply-To: <9935lb+qq9g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <993ase+hck8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14590

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., skywalker1 at i... wrote:
>   I don't mean to bring up this whole nasty Stouffer mess again but 
> her lawsuit states that J.K. is a citizen of the United States??? 
Her 
> web site repeats this claim with an image of a supposed 
certificate.  
> Can anyone shed any light on this???
>   I'm sorry if this has already been discussed (I couldn't find it 
> with a search).
> 
> Brian

One begins to suspect Ms. Stooofers sanity.




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Mar 18 22:17:29 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 22:17:29 -0000
Subject: Chapter 35 - fathers & sons
In-Reply-To: <008401c0afe4$f9123c20$0f14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <993c5p+l59r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14591

> Could this be what happens to the character who develops in an 
interesting
> way in book five? Could it be Dursley, against his parents' wishes, 
doing
> that thing which they hate the most? Being interested in becoming a 
wizard? 
> Just an odd thought,
> Doreen

Doreen -
 Funny you should mention Dudley.  I read in a JKR interview that 
Harry has not *yet* used magic on Dudley.  She then said "Hint hint".  
When you mentioned Dudley possibly becoming a wizard, it reminded me 
also that JKR said that someone will use magic without wands or 
lessons.  Perhaps Dudley will somehow discover wizard blood in him too 
and he and Harry will have some interesting interactions.

Really, though, I hope Harry will use magic on an unarmed Dudley 
(though his diet seems a torturous enough punishment :-P ).

--Jenny from Ravenclaw

"We didn't give it to him because he's a Muggle!" said Fred 
indignantly.
"No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying git," said 
George.
--Go




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Mar 18 22:17:41 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 22:17:41 -0000
Subject: Moody's Lament (Constant Vigilance Fell Through - Filk)
Message-ID: <993c65+2i03@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14592

Constant Vigilance Fell Through

(To the tune of Hopelessly Devoted to You)

Dedicated to Steve Vander Ark

(The Scene: Inside the trunk of Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody, who is being 
held hostage by Barty Crouch Jr.  The genuine Moody, sans magic eye 
and peg leg,laments his fate) 

MOODY
Guess I'm not the first Auror hostage
My eye not the first to be pinched
Give an inch, and they will take
Your will, leaving you subdued

You know I once filled ev'ry hoosegow
I confounded each Dark Wizard crew 
But let awareness lapse, and see it all collapse for you
If Constant Vigilance should fall through

`Cause now I'm locked in my trunk
Like some cheap piece of junk 
The thing I most dread, my constant vigilance fell through 
I've fallen into some deep doo-doo
`Cause constant vigilance fell through 

Take your eye off a Foe-Glass one second
Ignore a Sneakoscope's tiny peep
You'll meet a bad end, a hex they intend for you
If Constant Vigilance falls through

But now I'm locked in my trunk 
By that Crouch Junior punk
He's out there as me, a hopeless imitation of me 
Is all of Hogwarts too blind to see?
There's no way Crouch can be cooler than me


..

- CMC






From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar 18 22:24:38 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:24:38 -0600
Subject: Father figures (was Chapter 35 - more, and more and more)
References: <103.68692b.27e5b948@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AB535A5.33310CC5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14593

I split this out from the chapter questions because it's a general
observation.

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> 1) What about the father-son relationships in HP/specifically in GofF
> b) What about Harry's relationship with his father/father figures?
> c) What about Harry and Dumbledore? Dumbledore is the Great Protector
> of Harry, watching over him, throughout his life.
> d)Then we have Sirius and Harry..Sirius is Harry's godfather, and
> Harry has also begin to depend and trust him.

I had a weird thought. I think you must include Snape (and Lupin) in the
father figure list. Let me explain!!! I'm not *just* a Snape loony.

I have a book called "Gift of an Eagle" or something like that, about a
man who had a trained golden eagle--it was the whole from egg-to-release
story. This was the eagle who appeared in several (oddly named) True
Life Adventures by Disney, and some "Lassie" episodes, etc. ANYway, this
eagle adored her trainer, giving him many behaviors observed by eagles
with their mates, and detested the trainer's son, attacking him at any
opportunity. The author (the son) speculated that part of the reason
this eagle thrived so when in captivity was the broad range of "normal"
behaviors she was able to experience--having a mate, defending her
territory from the enemy (the son), etc.

Harry's character reminds me of this eagle--in an artificial situation,
transferring behaviors to those who can support the role. I think that
the relationship between a father and a son is tremendously complex, and
must of necessity have both postive and negative aspects for a balanced
maturity. Harry has several adult males in his life, who fulfill
portions of the role of father. Dumbledore has the sense of power to
him, someone who knows more, the source of answers and instruction.
Sirius (and Lupin) are the companion, the person who comes to be your
friend, too, as you mature. And Snape is the negative aspect. He's the
one who doesn't understand, who sets curfews, who won't let you explain,
the one you just *hate* and can't wait to move out of his house. I think
together, these men are providing Harry with what he needs,
emotionally---and you need the negative, as well as the positive. I
doubt this is deliberate on their parts--I think it's just the way they
each are--but I think this is how Harry's psyche is accepting them. He
has not considered Snape a physical threat to him since the first book;
he really reacts to him the way a boy does who does not get along with
his father.

I think Harry has removed himself completely from any emotional
connection with the Dursleys, so that Uncle Vernon doesn't even qualify
for the negative father aspects. He's an adversary, plain and simple.

So, whadda y'all think?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar 18 22:32:21 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:32:21 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 25 - more with comments on Dumbledore and  his hit squad
References: <7a.11ff9afc.27e5b983@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3AB53774.FBED4090@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14594

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> (My re-reading of this
> chapter has caused me to decide that Snape will not turn back to
> Voldemort).

I'd like to hear why--I, myself, don't think he will either, but what
specifically got your attention in this chapter?

> Also, this recurring rumor that Snape wants to be the Defense Against
> the Dark Arts teacher, but Dumbledore won't let him (with the
> implication that Dumbledore doesn't trust him?).

I still think this is just the sort of assumption JKR builds up
casually, until we take it as a given, so that she can "gotcha" us. I
think we, as careful readers, were given a big ol' clue when the trio
are complaining about Lockhart and Hagrid tells them he had been the
only applicant. "Any I mean the on'y one." Um. Snape didn't apply.

The die-hards can say that's because he has an understanding with
Dumbledore that Dumbledore will never give it to him, but I honestly
think the whole "Snape wants the Dark Arts job" is a little red fish
shimmering before our eyes. His opening speech seems to show that he
does love potions, potion-making, whatever his opinion of teaching or
students or anything else.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 18 22:37:03 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 22:37:03 -0000
Subject: Imperio curse, Tom Riddle's House, Muggles at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <992a5f+mfi3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <993daf+k30c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14595

> I wonder if this is another example of Voldemort's arrogance.  
Perhaps 
> Crouch did tell him, but Voldemort thought, "He might be able to 
> resist Crouch's Imperius, but just let him try to resist mine!"  

I think what this reveals about Harry is that he has a very good 
sense of himself and his center. I think that people who can resist 
the Imperius curse are probably the ones least likely to go over to 
the Dark Side of their own accord because they don't need the ego 
boost forbidden power would provide them. They know themselves and 
their capabilities (though Harry does tend to be self-deprecating at 
times). It might have something to do with how strong a wizard is -- 
for instance, I think that Neville might have more problems resisting 
than most -- but I believe that it's actually more tied in with 
character. Neville might have more trouble resisting than, say, Harry 
because he's less sure of himself and has self-esteem issues.

I think it's interesting that JKR made a point of telling us that Ron 
had trouble resisting it. I don't think Ron is nearly as sure of 
himself, his abilities, or his center as Harry is -- which is why he 
is probably more susceptible to being tricked or controlled by 
Voldemort in the future.

Interestingly enough, what house was Tom Riddle in? We assume he was 
in Slytherin, of course, but recently I was rereading CoS and came 
upon a reference to how "brave" (it was in italics) TR was. Bravery 
is the main Gryffindor virtue. So was he Slytherin . . . or could he 
have been Gryffindor?

> Scott:

> >Even though us Muggles can't get to Diagon alley, or see it. 
> 
> *We* might not be able to, but the Grangers did (they changed money 
at 
> Gringott's).  Special dispensation?

Something I've wondered about for awhile: What if Hermione had been 
the Hogwarts champion and her parents had wanted to come see her in 
the third task -- would they have been able to? What if the Dursleys 
were much nicer people than they are, and wanted to support Harry -- 
would they have been able to? What if a Hogwarts prof is married to a 
Muggle -- can they live together at Hogwarts? I think that the Iron 
Curtain that seems to divide Muggles from wizards and witches is 
impractical, and must cause problems on a fairly regular basis.

Also, I like the hypothesis that the unusual turn of events with the 
Dursleys is Dudley suddenly developing an interest in magic. Boy, 
would that send Petunia and Vernon into fits.

Stacy




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 18 22:49:36 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 14:49:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Troll-Be-Gone! *poof*
In-Reply-To: <992jn7+942q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010318224936.73936.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14596

> Magda, with due respect, I think you have made your point, it is a 
> good point, and it is time for you to let go now. 
> You are as steamed up as anyone on this thread, and it shows. 

Goodness, dear, where did you get the idea that I was steamed?  The
meter never got past exhasperated, really.

> Could we just put this aside now and move on? 

Of course.  I thought we had.  
 
> I apologize if I have offended you in anyway. 

No, you haven't offended me.  Surprised me, a little. And your
private post to me hurt me a little.

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From gaynor at cheerful.com  Sun Mar 18 23:01:52 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:01:52 -0000
Subject: Pronunciation of 'Knuts' (was Re: Crookshanks)
In-Reply-To: <991qfj+mm0b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <993ep0+ibgq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14597

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kelley" <SKTHOMPSON_1 at m...> wrote:


> I'm 
> pronouncing the 'K' in Kneazle, as I also do with 'Knut'.  Is that 
> wrong, anyone?
> 
> Kelley

I also pronounce Knut with a "K". However, when Daniel Radcliffe 
presented the cheque on Comic Relief last Friday he pronounced it 
with a silent K - i.e. "nut". 

Lots of "kn" words in English are pronounced with a silent k (eg 
knight, knife, knot etc.) so I suppose the k in "knut" and "kneazle" 
should be silent too...but I have to say I prefer the sound of "knut" 
with a sounded "k"!

Gaynor




From tanwo at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 18 23:37:17 2001
From: tanwo at hotmail.com (tanwo at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:37:17 -0000
Subject: Imperio curse, Tom Riddle's House, Muggles at Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <993daf+k30c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <993grd+fj7n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14598

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> 
> > Scott:
> 
> > >Even though us Muggles can't get to Diagon alley, or see it. 
> > 
> > *We* might not be able to, but the Grangers did (they changed 
money 
> at 
> > Gringott's).  Special dispensation?
> 

I'm no HPologist - but do we know for *sure* that Hermione's parents 
are muggles? Maybe they're in deep cover (and who'd suspect a 
dentist!) ... Hermione, for example, seems a natural witch!

Wotan.




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 18 23:40:39 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:40:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Father figures (was Chapter 35 - more, and more and more)
References: <103.68692b.27e5b948@aol.com> <3AB535A5.33310CC5@texas.net>
Message-ID: <011201c0b004$da3a8580$0f14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14599

I split this out from the chapter questions because it's a general
observation.

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> 1) What about the father-son relationships in HP/specifically in GofF
> b) What about Harry's relationship with his father/father figures?
> c) What about Harry and Dumbledore? Dumbledore is the Great Protector
> of Harry, watching over him, throughout his life.
> d)Then we have Sirius and Harry..Sirius is Harry's godfather, and
> Harry has also begin to depend and trust him.

I had a weird thought. I think you must include Snape (and Lupin) in the
father figure list. Let me explain!!! I'm not *just* a Snape loony.
<big snip>

I think Harry has removed himself completely from any emotional
connection with the Dursleys, so that Uncle Vernon doesn't even qualify
for the negative father aspects. He's an adversary, plain and simple.

So, whadda y'all think?

--Amanda

And don't forget Hagrid. He protects Harry as an infant. He places him with
the Dursley's, knowing that this is for the best, but not liking it, much as
a parent who adopts out their child. He gives him advice and scolds him;
takes care of his financial needs; takes him shopping for his first day at
wizard school; expects more from him than he does other students in his
class (anyone who has a teacher for a parent can attest to this); and he
seems to be there whenever Harry needs someone to talk to.

Doreen





From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sun Mar 18 23:44:24 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:44:24 -0000
Subject: Harry and the Dursleys.
Message-ID: <993h8o+rd6h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14600

Quick question for everyone...

Has anyone else wondered why Harry stays with the Dursleys? 
Supposedly Rowling said she would reveal that in the fifth book. I 
don't know if this has already been discussed, but think about it: he 
can stay with Ron and the Weasleys, or Hermione's family for that 
matter. 

So, it begs the question, why? I have a few theories...

1)The Dursleys are his only remaing family members, aside from
Sirius. 
And since he can't stay with him, perhaps he feels that his parents 
would want him to stay with family. Weak, I know.

2)Well, I don't really have any other theories besides that. Which 
comes to the reason for the posting...

Why would Harry stay with people who treat him so poorly? I'm really 
at a loss over this one. I've been thinking and thinking and thinking 
about why he would stay with them, and that's all I've come up with. 

I know it's not terribly creative, this is why I need other people 
ideas. Let me know what you think everyone! :)

Jamieson

PS, I absolutely LOVE "Quidditch.." and "Fantastic Beasts..."!!! 
They're so full of humor, it just makes me chuckle!




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Mon Mar 19 00:13:08 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 00:13:08 -0000
Subject: Harry and the Dursleys.
In-Reply-To: <993h8o+rd6h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <993iuk+ilel@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14601

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve" 
<crowswolf at s...> wrote:
> Quick question for everyone...
> 
> Has anyone else wondered why Harry stays with the Dursleys? 
> Supposedly Rowling said she would reveal that in the fifth book. I 
> don't know if this has already been discussed, but think about it: 
he 
> can stay with Ron and the Weasleys, or Hermione's family for that 
> matter. 
> 
> So, it begs the question, why? I have a few theories...
> 
> 1)The Dursleys are his only remaing family members, aside from
> Sirius. 
> And since he can't stay with him, perhaps he feels that his parents 
> would want him to stay with family. Weak, I know.
> 
> 2)Well, I don't really have any other theories besides that. Which 
> comes to the reason for the posting...
> 
> Why would Harry stay with people who treat him so poorly? I'm 
really 
> at a loss over this one. I've been thinking and thinking and 
thinking 
> about why he would stay with them, and that's all I've come up 
with. 
> 
> I know it's not terribly creative, this is why I need other people 
> ideas. Let me know what you think everyone! :)
> 
> Jamieson
> 
> PS, I absolutely LOVE "Quidditch.." and "Fantastic Beasts..."!!! 
> They're so full of humor, it just makes me chuckle!

Harry is protected by 'ancient magic' when he's at the Dursley's.  In 
GoF, even Mouldy Voldy seems to know this: 
'But how to get at Harry Potter?  For he has been better protected 
than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore 
long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future.  
*Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection 
as long as he is in his relation's care.*  Not even I can touch him 
there...'  GoF, UK edition, p. 570  (italics mine)  So, even if he 
*wanted* to live with Sirius (assuming Sirius was cleared), he 
couldn't.  Same thing for the Weasleys.  Molly wanted Harry to come 
straight to stay with them, but Dumbledore sent him back to the 
Dursley's.  

Hope this helps,

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 00:33:05 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 00:33:05 -0000
Subject: Troll-Be-Gone! *poof*
In-Reply-To: <20010318224936.73936.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <993k41+7880@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14602

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

Well Magda, please don't be offended. I shared with you--privately, as
I feel was appropriate-- how your posts made me feel. The high-horsey
lectures can be a bit grating. We are all adults here and can make our
own decisions about what to say and what not to say. I respect your
point of view-- I also quite frankly respect those who call Stouffer a
"hag!" since I have a good idea of where their feelings are coming
from. 

Nobody needs to apologize for having a different point of view. The
thing to do is say your bit and then let it rest, and if a thread
offends you, leave it alone!

--Suzanne




From linman6868 at aol.com  Mon Mar 19 00:36:14 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 00:36:14 -0000
Subject: Chapter 25 - Snape, DADA, and drum majors
In-Reply-To: <7a.11ff9afc.27e5b983@aol.com>
Message-ID: <993k9u+1hih@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14603

>From Susan's excellent post on Dumbledore, Lewis, etc.:

> Also, this recurring rumor that Snape wants to be the Defense 
Against the 
> Dark Arts teacher, but Dumbledore won't let him (with the 
implication that 
> Dumbledore doesn't trust him?). Maybe Snape does; maybe he doesn't. 
But if he 
> does, maybe Dumbledore won't let him because he needs him as the 
POTIONS 
> master...it's Snape that
> make's Lupin's very difficult werewolf potion, and the truth serum 
is 
> difficult and highly valuable....

I have a friend who in high school *desperately* wanted to be drum 
major.  Every year he begged the band director to give him a chance 
to try out.  But the band director told him every year that he was 
just too good on the alto sax to spare from the section.  And since 
woodwinds in marching band need all the good loud players they can 
get, the band director told him, don't even try out.  My friend, who 
would have made an able drum major, was crushed, but he got the point.

Snape's ability to get the point where Dumbledore is concerned 
(barring all the "OUT WITH IT, POTTER!  WHAT DID YOU DO?" episodes of 
course), is underestimated by Harry and Ron, probably not without 
reason considering said episodes.  But there's no denying Snape's 
talent in the area of Potions OR of DADA ("He knew more curses when 
he arrived at Hogwarts than most of the kids in seventh year...").  
As someone said, it sets up interesting developments later on.  I 
can't wait to be surprised, myself.

Lisa




From eyegrrl at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 19 00:33:56 2001
From: eyegrrl at earthlink.net (Chris)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:33:56 -0600
Subject: Harry and the Dursleys.
In-Reply-To: <993h8o+rd6h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010318181817.00a7b8d0@mail.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14604

I think much of the reason that Harry stays with the Dursleys is because 
it's what Dumbledore tells him to do.  At end of GoF Mrs. Weasley asks if 
Harry can stay with them for the entire summer and Dumbledore tells her 
no.  Mrs. Weasley states that he has his reasons.

I am sure its only respect for Dumbledore that keeps Harry at the Dursleys 
during the summer rather than some semblance of family loyalty on Harry's 
part.  We do know that Lily and James asked Sirius to become Harry's 
guardian if something were to happen to them, never Petunia and Vernon.

As much as I detest the Dursleys, I would miss Harry's interesting 
interactions with them.  I also have a feeling that Dudley will become an 
important part of the story one way or another.

Chris

>Has anyone else wondered why Harry stays with the Dursleys?
>Supposedly Rowling said she would reveal that in the fifth book. I
>don't know if this has already been discussed, but think about it: he
>can stay with Ron and the Weasleys, or Hermione's family for that
>matter.
>
>So, it begs the question, why? I have a few theories...
>
>1)The Dursleys are his only remaing family members, aside from
>Sirius.
>And since he can't stay with him, perhaps he feels that his parents
>would want him to stay with family. Weak, I know.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Mar 19 00:50:01 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:50:01 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tom Riddle's House, 
References: <993daf+k30c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002001c0b00e$88c338a0$49eb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 14605


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 5:37 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Imperio curse, Tom Riddle's House, Muggles at Hogwarts


  >>Interestingly enough, what house was Tom Riddle in? We assume he was 
  >>in Slytherin, of course, but recently I was rereading CoS and came 
  upon a reference to how "brave" (it was in italics) TR was. >>Bravery 
  is the main Gryffindor virtue. So was he Slytherin . . . or could he 
  >>have been Gryffindor?


  Interesting question.  The answer is in SS, chapter 5 (Diagon Alley).. Hagrid says (after Harry asks what Slytherin and Hufflepuff are): "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin.  You-Know-Who was one." (p.80 american paperback).

  ender




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 01:40:25 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:40:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pre-Hogwarts education
In-Reply-To: <993k9u+1hih@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010319014025.87698.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14606

> Snape's ability to get the point where Dumbledore is concerned 
> (barring all the "OUT WITH IT, POTTER!  WHAT DID YOU DO?" episodes
> of course), is underestimated by Harry and Ron, probably not 
> without reason considering said episodes.  But there's no denying 
> Snape's talent in the area of Potions OR of DADA ("He knew more 
> curses when he arrived at Hogwarts than most of the kids in seventh

> year..."). 

A thought struck me when I read this.  Where do little wizards and
witches go to school before they reach the age of 11 and can go to
Hogwarts? 



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From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 01:59:14 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 01:59:14 -0000
Subject: Chapter 35 - fathers & sons
In-Reply-To: <993c5p+l59r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <993p5i+ib0d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14607

> Doreen -
>  Funny you should mention Dudley.  I read in a JKR interview that 
> Harry has not *yet* used magic on Dudley.  She then said "Hint 
hint".  
> When you mentioned Dudley possibly becoming a wizard, it reminded 
me 
> also that JKR said that someone will use magic without wands or 
> lessons.  Perhaps Dudley will somehow discover wizard blood in him 
too 
> and he and Harry will have some interesting interactions.

I think that while this would be *very* interesting (and shouldn't be 
completely ruled out), the beginning of SS indicates that none of the 
Dursleys are magical in any way. If they were, McGonagall would not 
be so completely appalled to find out that Harry has to live with 
them for the next eleven years.

Stacy




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 19 02:02:48 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 20:02:48 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pre-Hogwarts education
References: <20010319014025.87698.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c0b018$b3419fe0$0a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14608

A thought struck me when I read this.  Where do little wizards and
witches go to school before they reach the age of 11 and can go to
Hogwarts?

Some of them go to regular Muggles' schools, but they are not required to do
so. JKR said this ... I may be able to find the exact quote for you later.

Doreen



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From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 19 02:16:19 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 20:16:19 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pre-Hogwarts education
References: <20010319014025.87698.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007001c0b01a$96d5b4c0$0a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14609


From: "Magda Grantwich" 

A thought struck me when I read this.  Where do little wizards and
witches go to school before they reach the age of 11 and can go to
Hogwarts? 

These are both quotes from Scholastic interviews with JKR:

How do students at Hogwarts get educated in Muggle subjects? Do they even need to know other things besides magic? 

They can choose to study Muggle subjects. In the third book, Hermione takes the class Muggles Studies, and that's where they learn about Muggles in school. 

Do wizards and witches have to go Muggle school before they go to Hogwarts? 

No, they don't have to. 

Doreen








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 19 02:28:18 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 20:28:18 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 35 - fathers & sons
References: <993p5i+ib0d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007a01c0b01c$46393120$0a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14610

Stacy said:

Doreen -
Funny you should mention Dudley.  I read in a JKR interview that
Harry has not *yet* used magic on Dudley.  She then said "Hint hint".
When you mentioned Dudley possibly becoming a wizard, it reminded me
also that JKR said that someone will use magic without wands or
lessons.  Perhaps Dudley will somehow discover wizard blood in him too
and he and Harry will have some interesting interactions.
Doreen said:

Maybe Dudley will sneak a peek at Harry's potions books and have a go at it.
That is, if he can manage the right end of the wand. JKR said that when you
use a wand that is not yours, strange things can happen... or words to that
effect. Maybe we are in for some more of JKR's off-beat humor concerning
what would happen if Dudley made some potions that go wild! Maybe Petunia's
neck will grow twenty feet long as she cranes over the fence. Or her nose
will get stuck in something when she sticks it into the neighbors' business.

Stacy said:
I think that while this would be *very* interesting (and shouldn't be
completely ruled out), the beginning of SS indicates that none of the
Dursleys are magical in any way. If they were, McGonagall would not
be so completely appalled to find out that Harry has to live with
them for the next eleven years.

Doreen said:
I think McGonagall would have been appalled at any rate about the Dursleys.
They are rude, self-centered, greedy, bigotted, boorish, and a lot more
adjectives that probably should not be typed in HPFGU. *smile*







From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 02:58:05 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:58:05 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pre-Hogwarts education
References: <20010319014025.87698.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00d801c0b020$77230640$83e01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14611


> 
> A thought struck me when I read this.  Where do little wizards and
> witches go to school before they reach the age of 11 and can go to
> Hogwarts? 

Homeschooling? 

Rena



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From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 03:01:51 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 03:01:51 -0000
Subject: Chapter 35 - fathers & sons
In-Reply-To: <007a01c0b01c$46393120$0a14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <993sqv+ujdf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14612

> Stacy said:
> I think that while this would be *very* interesting (and shouldn't 
be
> completely ruled out), the beginning of SS indicates that none of 
the
> Dursleys are magical in any way. If they were, McGonagall would not
> be so completely appalled to find out that Harry has to live with
> them for the next eleven years.
> 
> Doreen said:
> I think McGonagall would have been appalled at any rate about the 
Dursleys.
> They are rude, self-centered, greedy, bigotted, boorish, and a lot 
more
> adjectives that probably should not be typed in HPFGU. *smile*

Probably, but she says, "I've been watching them [the Dursleys] all 
day. You couldn't find two people who are less like us. And they've 
got this son -- I saw him kicking his mother all the way up the 
street, screaming for sweets. Harry Potter come and live here!"

I think that if *any* of the Dursleys were magical, McGonagall would 
have been less vehement. At least if Dudley were also a wizard, Harry 
would have been more accepted.

Of course, there's always the question of whether or not Dudley, 
should he discover a latent magical inclination, will find himself 
booted out of Number 4 Privet Drive.

Stacy




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 03:03:55 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 03:03:55 -0000
Subject: Pre-Hogwarts education
In-Reply-To: <00d801c0b020$77230640$83e01b3f@rena>
Message-ID: <993sur+bdl0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14613

> > A thought struck me when I read this.  Where do little wizards and
> > witches go to school before they reach the age of 11 and can go to
> > Hogwarts? 
> 
> Homeschooling? 
> 
> Rena

Probably. At some point, these kids have to learn to read, and basic 
arithematic is very important. I find it hard to believe that 
Hogwarts admits students without ANY education at all.

Stacy




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 03:06:26 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:06:26 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 35 - fathers & sons
References: <993sqv+ujdf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ee01c0b021$97872640$83e01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14614

> Of course, there's always the question of whether or not Dudley,
> should he discover a latent magical inclination, will find himself
> booted out of Number 4 Privet Drive.

I think if Dudley had any magical talent, he would have gotten a
letter for hogwarts as well.
I would have loved to see the look on his parent's face when he'd open
that letter.

Rena



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From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar 19 03:28:24 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 03:28:24 -0000
Subject: Pronunciation of 'Knuts' (was Re: Crookshanks)
In-Reply-To: <993ep0+ibgq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <993uco+e4lh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14615

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gaynor Thomas" <gaynor at c...> wrote:

> Lots of "kn" words in English are pronounced with a silent k (eg 
> knight, knife, knot etc.) so I suppose the k in "knut" and 
> "kneazle" should be silent too...but I have to say I prefer the
> sound of "knut" with a sounded "k"!

I dunno about Kneazle, but I believe that Knud SHOULD be pronounced 
with a K, so that it can be related to King Canute (King of the 
Danelaw in Britain) who put his throne on the beach and ordered 
the to stop coming in and get his feet wet. Canute in English is Knud 
in Danish, like Knudsen dairy products.




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar 19 03:33:11 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 03:33:11 -0000
Subject: Pre-Hogwarts education
In-Reply-To: <993sur+bdl0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <993uln+pf3t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14616

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
 
> > Homeschooling? 
> > Rena
> 
> Probably. At some point, these kids have to learn to read, and 
> basic arithematic is very important. I find it hard to believe that 
> Hogwarts admits students without ANY education at all.

I believe their parents have the choice of homeschooling or send 
their children to small local primary school day schools run by 
witches or sending their children to Muggle schools, but the parents 
have to pay for this schooling. I personally believe that Draco 
Malfoy was educated at home by tutors, but his parents invited their 
friends' same-age children (at least Crabbe and Goyle, maybe 
Pansy as well, maybe some others we haven't gotten full names on) to 
share his lessons.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Mar 19 03:37:23 2001
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 21:37:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Discussion summary: Chapter 35 Veritaserum
References: <993105+lji4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB57EF3.6E2CABA8@attglobal.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14617



Rita Winston wrote:

> As Peg Kerr mentioned in re Harry having decided that he and Cedric
> would share the Cup equally leading to Cedric's death, JKR making
> Harry's most noble acts lead to the tragedy for which he blames
> himself is a magnigicent way for the author to torture the character,
> but it also, no doubt unintentionally, serves as an example of "why"
> not to get involved....

Well!  It's nice to come back after a two month hiatus from posting to
discover my ideas are still percolating through the group.

I've emerged for the moment from wrestling with the plot of my third
book (my heroine is being obstreperous; I just can't make her behave the
way she should) and will try participating again for
awhile--unless/until the sheer volume of messages drives me away, as it
did last time.

Good to be back, all.  I've missed you!

Cheers,
Peg


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Mar 19 03:47:39 2001
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (Peg Kerr)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 21:47:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and the Dursleys.
References: <993h8o+rd6h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB5815B.DE5F32E6@attglobal.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14618


Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve wrote:

> Quick question for everyone...
>
> Has anyone else wondered why Harry stays with the Dursleys?

<Snip>

> Why would Harry stay with people who treat him so poorly?

Chris added:


As much as I detest the Dursleys, I would miss Harry's interesting
interactions with them.  I also have a feeling that Dudley will become
an important part of the story one way or another.

Chris

I've written a series of essays which you'll find in the files (7 Deadly
Sins/7 Heavenly Virtues) which examine themes of moral development in
the HP books, and in the course of writing them, I came to the
conclusion that the Dursleys serve an important structural purpose: they
serve as a warning example, showing Harry how NOT to act.  I found them
rather tiresome at first, but now I understand how integral they are to
Rowling's thematic work--I mentioned at one point that I should have
realized immediately, for example, in PoA that Rowling was signaling at
the very beginning of the book that Sirius Black was innocent simply
because Vernon and Petunia were convinced that he was guilty.

Take a look at the essays for a fuller discussion of the Dursleys' role
in Harry's moral development.

Cheers,
Peg


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 19 03:56:51 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 22:56:51 -0500
Subject: OT - Peg's return
References: <993105+lji4@eGroups.com> <3AB57EF3.6E2CABA8@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <006501c0b028$a1ff08c0$c349d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14619

I know this is an OT post on the main list, but just gotta say...

WELCOME BACK PEG!!!!!

We've missed you! Although I've been hoping you've been writing!

carole


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peg Kerr" <pkerr06 at attglobal.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Discussion summary: Chapter 35 Veritaserum


>
>
> Rita Winston wrote:
>
> > As Peg Kerr mentioned in re Harry having decided that he and Cedric
> > would share the Cup equally leading to Cedric's death, JKR making
> > Harry's most noble acts lead to the tragedy for which he blames
> > himself is a magnigicent way for the author to torture the character,
> > but it also, no doubt unintentionally, serves as an example of "why"
> > not to get involved....
>
> Well!  It's nice to come back after a two month hiatus from posting to
> discover my ideas are still percolating through the group.
>
> I've emerged for the moment from wrestling with the plot of my third
> book (my heroine is being obstreperous; I just can't make her behave the
> way she should) and will try participating again for
> awhile--unless/until the sheer volume of messages drives me away, as it
> did last time.
>
> Good to be back, all.  I've missed you!
>
> Cheers,
> Peg
>






From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Mar 19 04:25:53 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 20:25:53 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Dursleys.
In-Reply-To: <993iuk+ilel@eGroups.com>
References: <993h8o+rd6h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010318201904.03893b30@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14620

At 12:13 AM 3/19/01 +0000, pbnesbit at msn.com wrote:
>Molly wanted Harry to come
>straight to stay with them, but Dumbledore sent him back to the
>Dursley's.

With "Moldy Voldy" (I like that name!) back, does this mean
that Harry will spend *all* of summer at Privet Drive from here
on in?   Maybe Dumbledore should send Mad-Eye Moody over
to give Harry some moral support (and scare the crap out of
the Dursleys!).



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Mon Mar 19 04:41:15 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 20:41:15 -0800
Subject: Is Snape supposed to be Japanese? (Minor FB SPOILER)
In-Reply-To: <3AB5815B.DE5F32E6@attglobal.net>
References: <993h8o+rd6h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010318202829.00e637f0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14621

On P. 23 of FB Harry has the word "Japanese" underlined and the
words "Snape hasn't read this either".  Why?  Is Severus supposed
to be Asian??  (It would be kind of damaging to the "Harry, I Am
Your Uncle" theory wouldn't it...?)



                                                 -- Dave




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar 19 05:00:46 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:00:46 -0000
Subject: Is Snape supposed to be Japanese? (Minor FB SPOILER)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010318202829.00e637f0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9943pu+ng76@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14622

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
W
A
T
C
H

T
H
I
S
 
S
P
A
C
E

> On P. 23 of FB Harry has the word "Japanese" underlined and the
> words "Snape hasn't read this either".  Why?  Is Severus supposed
> to be Asian??  (It would be kind of damaging to the "Harry, I Am
> Your Uncle" theory wouldn't it...?)
> 
> 
> 
>                                                  -- Dave

	Interesting theory, but I'm afraid it's a reference to  Ch. 9 of 
PoA, p 172 (US edition) where Snape is teaching Lupin's DADA class and 
commenting on the students' work.
	"Very poorly explained...That is incorrect, the kappa is more 
comnonly found in Mongolia....Professor Lupin gave this eight out of 
ten? I wouldn't have given it three...."

Pippin





From jferer at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 05:03:35 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:03:35 -0000
Subject: Pronunciation of 'Knuts' (was Re: Crookshanks)
In-Reply-To: <993uco+e4lh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9943v7+l879@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14623

I think a Scandinavian pronunciation would be like you say, Rita, 
"ca-noot." Dale's pronunciation, "ca-nut," makes me cringe every time 
I hear it.
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gaynor Thomas" <gaynor at c...> wrote:
> 
> > Lots of "kn" words in English are pronounced with a silent k (eg 
> > knight, knife, knot etc.) so I suppose the k in "knut" and 
> > "kneazle" should be silent too...but I have to say I prefer the
> > sound of "knut" with a sounded "k"!
> 
> I dunno about Kneazle, but I believe that Knud SHOULD be pronounced 
> with a K, so that it can be related to King Canute (King of the 
> Danelaw in Britain) who put his throne on the beach and ordered 
> the to stop coming in and get his feet wet. Canute in English is 
Knud 
> in Danish, like Knudsen dairy products.




From linman6868 at aol.com  Mon Mar 19 05:07:17 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:07:17 -0000
Subject: PoA:  Dementors and Aunt Marge
Message-ID: <994465+808b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14624

I should probably check the archives for a topic of this sort, but 
it's occurred to me the last several times I've read PoA that Harry's 
struggle for the book is set up right from the Dursley episode in the 
beginning.  A poster mentioned that every episode with the Dursleys 
is designed to mirror to Harry what NOT to do; I've also been 
wondering if each episode with the Dursleys mirrors in little the 
conflict Harry's about to experience in the wizarding world.

Nowhere is this more evident to me than in the Aunt Marge episode.  
In order to survive Aunt Marge's visit, Harry forces himself to think 
about the Broomcare Handbook.  This forced concentration both diverts 
his attention from Aunt Marge's gibes and controls his emotional 
response to the gibes he does hear.  In effect, it's a Muggle version 
of a Patronus Charm.  Only it doesn't work.  Harry snaps, he does 
magical revenge, and then he runs away.  

It's kind of gratifying to think of Aunt Marge as a human dementor, 
but it raises a conflict that even Harry's mastery of the Patronus 
Charm can't solve on its own.  Harry seems to be able to overcome 
magical difficulties, even seemingly impossible ones like dementors; 
but the mirroring human difficulties can still get him down.  Not 
that we blame him a whole heck of a lot, but (in PoA especially) the 
Dursley episodes seem to shadow in the root human difficulties Harry 
will soon encounter, or is already encountering.  And what may or may 
not solve them.

Is this only a PoA thing? Or is this the recurring use JKR finds for 
the Dursleys?  I have some half-formed thoughts myself, but would 
like to hear what others think.

Lisa





From jferer at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 05:19:06 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:19:06 -0000
Subject: Muggles at Hogwarts [Reply Wotan]
In-Reply-To: <993grd+fj7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9944sa+ngv7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14625

Wotan:"I'm no HPologist - but do we know for *sure* that Hermione's 
parents are muggles? Maybe they're in deep cover (and who'd suspect a 
dentist!) ... Hermione, for example, seems a natural witch!"

They're muggles. They're described as such on numerous occasions. 
Besides, Hermione's muggle-born heritage is important to the themes of 
the books. She, a brilliant student, is looked down on by many as a 
"mudblood" -- a word with the same emotional punch as some of our 
racial/ethnic epithets.

May I humbly plug my own, "The Letter," as a story about how 
muggle-borns might get introduced to the magic world? It's in the 
Files section here.  If you choose to read it, I'd appreciate your 
thoughts.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Mar 19 05:34:31 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:34:31 -0000
Subject: thanks to Caius
In-Reply-To: <993c65+2i03@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9945p7+kkem@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14626

All of us here in Ann Arbor, Michigan loved your filk to the tune of 
Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds....

peace, love, woodstock.....

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Mar 19 05:38:39 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:38:39 -0000
Subject: Father figures/good big brothers
In-Reply-To: <011201c0b004$da3a8580$0f14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99460v+pq5v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14627

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> I split this out from the chapter questions because it's a general
> observation.
> 
> Schlobin at a... wrote:
> 
> > 1) What about the father-son relationships in HP/specifically in 
GofF
> > b) What about Harry's relationship with his father/father figures?
> > c) What about Harry and Dumbledore? Dumbledore is the Great 
Protector
> > of Harry, watching over him, throughout his life.
> > d)Then we have Sirius and Harry..Sirius is Harry's godfather, and
> > Harry has also begin to depend and trust him.
> 
> I had a weird thought. I think you must include Snape (and Lupin) 
in the
> father figure list. Let me explain!!! I'm not *just* a Snape loony.
> <big snip>
> 
> I think Harry has removed himself completely from any emotional
> connection with the Dursleys, so that Uncle Vernon doesn't even 
qualify
> for the negative father aspects. He's an adversary, plain and 
simple.
> 
> So, whadda y'all think?
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> And don't forget Hagrid. He protects Harry as an infant. He places 
him with
> the Dursley's, knowing that this is for the best, but not liking 
it, much as
> a parent who adopts out their child. He gives him advice and scolds 
him;
> takes care of his financial needs; takes him shopping for his first 
day at
> wizard school; expects more from him than he does other students in 
his
> class (anyone who has a teacher for a parent can attest to this); 
and he
> seems to be there whenever Harry needs someone to talk to.
> 
> Doreen


Yes, I see Hagrid not as a father figure, but as the (good) big 
brother figure..Hagrid is just not a grown up (good and bad). 
In some ways, he's still an adolescent just like Harry.....But he IS 
the quintessential big brother..I had one..who protected me from 
bullies, taught me all kinds of things, played with me constantly,
lost at chess and ping-pong to me, and was really angry (which was 
great because it meant that he at 7 years older took me seriously), 
bought me books including the first C.S. Lewis books, read to me when 
I was sick, etc. etc....But he wasn't a parent...we set off illegal 
firecrackers together..we were kids together and that's how I see 
Harry and Hagrid..comments?




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Mar 19 05:42:28 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:42:28 -0000
Subject: Chapter 25 - more with comments on Dumbledore and  his hit squad
In-Reply-To: <3AB53774.FBED4090@texas.net>
Message-ID: <994684+km8d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14628

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Schlobin at a... wrote:
> 
> > (My re-reading of this
> > chapter has caused me to decide that Snape will not turn back to
> > Voldemort).
> 
> I'd like to hear why--I, myself, don't think he will either, but 
what
> specifically got your attention in this chapter?
> 

It was the very visceral example of Snape standing with Dumbledore to 
rescue Harry from the fake Moody. Snape doesn't like Harry very much, 
but in an acute crisis, he comes to his aid. Perhaps it is that 
Dumbledore rescued Snape...from Voldemort, from his own personal 
torment when he recognized what being a Death Eater was about..and 
that it is Snape's personal dedication to Voldemort....or he has 
decided to do the right thing and renounce Voldemort forever..

I think that we all must realize that JKR has created a world where 
it is very, very clear where the ultimate evil lies....

Susan




From klaatu at primenet.com  Mon Mar 19 05:52:42 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 22:52:42 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pronunciation of 'Knuts' (was Re: Crookshanks)
In-Reply-To: <993uco+e4lh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEEADEAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14629

According to the Scholastic pronunciation guide,
it is pronounced k-noots, with the "k" sound.

http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/books/pronunciation/play.htm


SML

==============================================
Before death takes what has been given to you,
 you must give away everything you can give.
               ---Rumi
==============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Rita Winston [mailto:catlady at wicca.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 8:28 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pronunciation of 'Knuts' (was Re: Crookshanks)


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gaynor Thomas" <gaynor at c...> wrote:

> Lots of "kn" words in English are pronounced with a silent k (eg
> knight, knife, knot etc.) so I suppose the k in "knut" and
> "kneazle" should be silent too...but I have to say I prefer the
> sound of "knut" with a sounded "k"!

I dunno about Kneazle, but I believe that Knud SHOULD be pronounced
with a K, so that it can be related to King Canute (King of the
Danelaw in Britain) who put his throne on the beach and ordered
the to stop coming in and get his feet wet. Canute in English is Knud
in Danish, like Knudsen dairy products.



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From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Mar 19 06:01:13 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:01:13 -0000
Subject: Pre-Hogwarts education
In-Reply-To: <993sur+bdl0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9947b9+l3fg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14630

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> > > A thought struck me when I read this.  Where do little wizards 
and
> > > witches go to school before they reach the age of 11 and can go 
to
> > > Hogwarts? 
> > 
> > Homeschooling? 
> > 
> Probably. At some point, these kids have to learn to read, and 
basic 
> arithematic is very important. I find it hard to believe that 
> Hogwarts admits students without ANY education at all.
> 

You would think that little magical kids must either go to muggle 
elementary schools or get homeschooled by their parents to learn 
their ABCs, but maybe there is a magical way to do the basics.

For example, the wizarding community MUST have a magical way to do 
arithmetic.  There is simply no way any group of people could use a 
monetary system where 29 Knuts = 1 sickle and 17 sickles = 1 galleon 
without magic.  Humans are just not capable of doing that kind of 
arithmetic in their heads.

Maybe they can also magically read and write, so they can skip having 
a basic education.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 06:21:29 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:21:29 -0000
Subject: Is Dudley magical? (was Re: Chapter 35 - fathers & sons)
In-Reply-To: <00ee01c0b021$97872640$83e01b3f@rena>
Message-ID: <9948h9+6e26@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14631

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rena" <fmu30c at y...> wrote:
> > Of course, there's always the question of whether or not Dudley,
> > should he discover a latent magical inclination, will find himself
> > booted out of Number 4 Privet Drive.
> 
> I think if Dudley had any magical talent, he would have gotten a
> letter for hogwarts as well.
> I would have loved to see the look on his parent's face when he'd 
open
> that letter.
> 
> Rena

*grins* I just had this same conversation with a friend by IM so I 
actually have a reply to this.

At some point (probably in SS), Neville says something about his 
grandmother being worried that he "wasn't magical enough" to go to 
Hogwarts. Now, with Neville we can be fairly sure that his troubles 
in his studies have something to do with his parents, but that 
statement shows us that it's possible that there are people who are 
just a little bit magical -- not quite a Squib, but not a wizard or 
witch either. Dudley could be one of those -- not magical enough to 
go to Hogwarts. His powers would probably only show up at a moment of 
great need, and, as Dudley has been extremely sheltered, that hasn't 
arrived yet.

Also, didn't JKR say in a chat that some people (though in rare 
cases) do come to their magical powers later in life?

I think it an unlikely possibility, but one that is starting to grow 
on me. Perhaps I'm just enjoying playing devil's advocate.

Stacy




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 06:43:01 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:43:01 -0000
Subject: Pre-Hogwarts ed/Snape and DADA
In-Reply-To: <9947b9+l3fg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9949pl+e472@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14632

-> 
> You would think that little magical kids must either go to muggle 
> elementary schools or get homeschooled by their parents to learn 
> their ABCs, but maybe there is a magical way to do the basics.

Would doubt this, just because then Hermione or someone would have 
mentioned it by now. Harry probably could not avoid noticing this as 
well. Plus, I suspect they must be teaching advanced math in the 
context of other courses, because you do need more math when dealing 
with say, astronomy. (Of course, if you really want to get meta and 
nitpicky here, you could argue that wizards wouldn't need higher 
math, because they seem to have split off in the middle ages, and 
don't use physics and other things which would involve it, because 
they have magical solutions to the tech problems that prompted more 
complex math. Literature, if we're discussing the Hogwarts 
curriculum, is the far more puzzling omission. )

> 
> For example, the wizarding community MUST have a magical way to do 
> arithmetic.  There is simply no way any group of people could use a 
> monetary system where 29 Knuts = 1 sickle and 17 sickles = 1 
galleon 
> without magic.  Humans are just not capable of doing that kind of 
> arithmetic in their heads.

Well, think of the archaic British money system and measurement 
system. People managed to keep that in their heads. Granted, that 
didn't use prime numbers, so this system is harder. Think also of how 
people must have managed commerce before standardized measurements, 
when things were based on arbitrary, non multiplication friendly 
things like the king's forearm. Plus they were using different 
coinage systems at the same time to do trade, and dealing with 
fluctuating gold composition. 

Re:  Snape and DADA. I have long been an advocate of either two 
theories. :) Red herring, Snape doesn't want the job. He never goes 
and says it, and he does love those potions, and what Hagrid says 
goes against it. Or the alto sax theory, finding a good potions prof 
is even harder. With someone of Lockhart level incompetance teaching 
potions, things would be even more hazardous. 

Alternate theories include the probation theory, where Dumbledore 
decides it's a bad idea to let Snape near Dark Arts, which to me 
doesn't make much sense because the course doesn't include teaching 
people the actual Dark Arts, just reading about them and learning 
counterspells. And then there's the theory that others just seemed 
more qualified. 

Charmian




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 11:56:12 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:56:12 -0000
Subject: V's house - Drive times - Knuts - Nonmagical studies
Message-ID: <994s4s+4ees@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14633

Stacy speculated:

>Interestingly enough, what house was Tom Riddle in? We assume he was 
>in Slytherin, of course, but recently I was rereading CoS and came 
>upon a reference to how "brave" (it was in italics) TR was. Bravery 
>is the main Gryffindor virtue. So was he Slytherin . . . or could he 
>have been Gryffindor?

I had been wondering about TR's house myself, but just reread in PS/SS 
that he was in Slytherin, according to Ron, who says so when he and 
Harry are discussing the different houses on the train.  (Hagrid's 
assertion that every bad wizard was in Slytherin isn't trustworthy; we 
know that when he said that, he believed Sirius was V's right-hand 
man, and he was in Gryffindor...we think.)

I also noticed on this reading that it takes Harry & the Dursleys **3 
1/2 hours** to get from Little Whinging to King's Cross.  ??  Is this 
really possible, or is JKR making a wry joke about London traffic?

Gaynor wrote:
>I also pronounce Knut with a "K". However, when Daniel Radcliffe 
>presented the cheque on Comic Relief last Friday he pronounced it 
>with a silent K - i.e. "nut". 

Harry Has Spoken.  I prefer a sounded "k" and short "u," myself.

Doreen wrote:
>(question to JKR) How do students at Hogwarts get educated in Muggle 
subjects? Do they even need
>to know other things besides magic?

>(JKR response) They can choose to study Muggle subjects. In the third 
book, Hermione takes the
>class Muggles Studies, and that's where they learn about Muggles in 
school.

I always thought JKR misunderstood the question (perhaps 
deliberately?).  Muggle Studies is the study of Muggle society.  I 
think the questioner meant, do they study literature, foreign 
languages, math, biology, etc.?  History might be covered in Muggle 
Studies, but it seems that most other subjects one studies in a Muggle 
school would not be.  So the question remains, how do kids from wizard 
families learn math & such?  I plump for homeschooling, but that's 
just my educational bias speaking.

Amy Z
Secretary, MUU! (Magical Unschoolers United!)

--------------------------------------------------
 "Very haunted up here, isn't it?" said Ron, 
 with the air of one commenting on the weather.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-------------------------------------------------- 




From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Mar 19 12:25:00 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:25:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] V's house - Drive times - Knuts - Nonmagical studies
References: <994s4s+4ees@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000701c0b06f$9f19cae0$d2e8183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 14634


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amy Z 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 6:56 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] V's house - Drive times - Knuts - Nonmagical studies


  I had been wondering about TR's house myself, but just reread in PS/SS 
  that he was in Slytherin, according to Ron, who says so when he and 
  Harry are discussing the different houses on the train.  (Hagrid's 
  assertion that every bad wizard was in Slytherin isn't trustworthy; we 
  know that when he said that, he believed Sirius was V's right-hand 
  man, and he was in Gryffindor...we think.)


  However, Hagrid does state that Voldemort came from Slytherin, and seeing as Hagrid was at school the same time as Riddle, I assume that he would know...especially since he, himself, had an unpleasant run in with Riddle.

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 12:29:07 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:29:07 -0000
Subject: V's house
In-Reply-To: <000701c0b06f$9f19cae0$d2e8183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <994u2j+8bqe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14635

ender wrote:
> 
>   However, Hagrid does state that Voldemort came from Slytherin, and 
>seeing as Hagrid was at school the same time as Riddle, I assume that 
>he would know...especially since he, himself, had an unpleasant run 
>in with Riddle.

Yeah, and it makes sense that one statement is more trustworthy than 
the other.  "You-Know-Who was in Slytherin" is the kind of 
straightforward, factual statement that we have no reason to doubt.  
"All the wizards who ever went bad were in Slytherin" sounds like a 
generalization, and it's therefore not surprising if it's not 100% 
accurate.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------------------------
   "See, there was this wizard who went . . . bad.  As bad as 
 you could go.  Worse.  Worse than worse.   His name was . . ."
   Hagrid gulped, but no words came out.
   "Could you write it down?" Harry suggested.
   "Nah--can't spell it."
                              -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
----------------------------------------------------------------




From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Mar 19 12:37:02 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:37:02 -0000
Subject: Pre-Hogwarts ed/Snape and DADA
In-Reply-To: <9949pl+e472@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <994uhe+vg2v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14636

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ourobouros_1999 at y... wrote:
> -> 
> > You would think that little magical kids must either go to muggle 
> > elementary schools or get homeschooled by their parents to learn 
> > their ABCs, but maybe there is a magical way to do the basics.
> 
> Would doubt this, just because then Hermione or someone would have 
> mentioned it by now. Harry probably could not avoid noticing this as 
> well. Plus, I suspect they must be teaching advanced math in the 
> context of other courses, because you do need more math when dealing 
> with say, astronomy. 

Confirmed.

Harry indicates in PS/SS that he studied astronomy.

And in PoA, Hermione gives up Trelawney's Divination class so she can 
concentrate her entire attention on Arithmancy.

Arithmancy sounds, to me at least, like a magickal way to deal with 
math.

Anyone?






From mssabano at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 13:03:19 2001
From: mssabano at yahoo.com (mssabano at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:03:19 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands AGAIN?
Message-ID: <99502n+hnhn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14637

In Book 3 (Prisoner of Azkaban), Harry's precious map, which he 
inherited from his father, falls into the wrong hands - Snape's. We 
all think that this is the end of this magical map but luckily; Snape 
doesn't know how to use it!

In Book 4 (Goblet of Fire), Harry lends his map to the fake 'Moody', 
but it doesn't say anywhere in the book if he gets it back! Does he? 
The last time the map is mentioned is in Crouch's 'confession' after 
drinking the Truth potion.

Has Rowling simply forgotten to mention if Harry gets it back or has 
she left it unmentioned for a reason?

Mike
A True Harry Potter Fan




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 19 13:09:01 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:09:01 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups]  - Nonmagical studies
References: <994s4s+4ees@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002401c0b075$c55c5a00$7314a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14638


From: "Amy Z"

Doreen wrote:
>(question to JKR) How do students at Hogwarts get educated in Muggle
subjects? Do they even need
>to know other things besides magic?

>(JKR response) They can choose to study Muggle subjects. In the third
book, Hermione takes the
>class Muggles Studies, and that's where they learn about Muggles in
school.

I always thought JKR misunderstood the question (perhaps
deliberately?).  Muggle Studies is the study of Muggle society.  I
think the questioner meant, do they study literature, foreign
languages, math, biology, etc.?  History might be covered in Muggle
Studies, but it seems that most other subjects one studies in a Muggle
school would not be.  So the question remains, how do kids from wizard
families learn math & such?  I plump for homeschooling, but that's
just my educational bias speaking.

Doreen also wrote, perhaps not clearly enough...

Q: Do wizards and witches have to go Muggle school before they go to
Hogwarts?

JKR: No, they don't have to.

So, perhaps they do get a lot of home schooling. If all they ever did at
Hogwarts was spells and broom riding, I could see why they would not need
math, history, etc. but they have to read, do math, and do graphing. I doubt
that they are just born with this knowledge, but then, in the wizarding
world, lots of things are possible that we never dreamt could happen.
*smile*
Doreen

Amy Z
Secretary, MUU! (Magical Unschoolers United!)

--------------------------------------------------
 "Very haunted up here, isn't it?" said Ron,
 with the air of one commenting on the weather.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------



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From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 13:13:49 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:13:49 -0000
Subject: Rowling a U.S. citizen?
In-Reply-To: <993ase+hck8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9950md+9jqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14639

The certificate Stouffer has on her website is the application for a
copywrite for the US edition of Harry Potter and the SS. What is odd
about it is that she leaves off the signature of whomever filled out
the certificate, and I can't help but wonder why. I don't think that
this is the sort of thing that Rowling herself would have filled out--
I think that publishers do that part generally. It is pretty clearly a
clerical error. Rowling isn't a US citizen.



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eccleston at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., skywalker1 at i... wrote:
> >   I don't mean to bring up this whole nasty Stouffer mess again
but 
> > her lawsuit states that J.K. is a citizen of the United States??? 
> Her 
> > web site repeats this claim with an image of a supposed 
> certificate.  
> > Can anyone shed any light on this???
> >   I'm sorry if this has already been discussed (I couldn't find it 
> > with a search).
> > 
> > Brian
> 
> One begins to suspect Ms. Stooofers sanity.




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar 19 13:27:43 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:27:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pre-Hogwarts education
References: <9947b9+l3fg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB6094F.17FD0236@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14640

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> For example, the wizarding community MUST have a magical way to do
> arithmetic.  There is simply no way any group of people could use a
> monetary system where 29 Knuts = 1 sickle and 17 sickles = 1 galleon
> without magic.  Humans are just not capable of doing that kind of
> arithmetic in their heads.

Certainly we are. Talk to any well-educated person over, oh, 60, and
they'll be able to tell you all sorts of little "trick" shortcuts and
mnemonics for "in the head" math. (Like one my mom taught me, that any
double-digit multiple of eleven will be the first number, the sum of the
two, then the second number--11x11 = 121, 11x14=154, 11x26=286, etc. [I
don't know that this holds up after the sum of the two numbers is itself
two-digit]). Plus, when you're talking about just a few quantities and
their various combinations, these will be memorized readily.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar 19 13:29:59 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:29:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Father figures/good big brothers
References: <99460v+pq5v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB609D7.E899B9A7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14641

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> Yes, I see Hagrid not as a father figure, but as the (good) big
> brother figure..Hagrid is just not a grown up (good and bad). In some
> ways, he's still an adolescent just like Harry.....But he IS the
> quintessential big brother..I had one..who protected me from bullies,
> taught me all kinds of things, played with me constantly,lost at chess
> and ping-pong to me, and was really angry (which was
> great because it meant that he at 7 years older took me seriously),
> bought me books including the first C.S. Lewis books, read to me when
> I was sick, etc. etc....But he wasn't a parent...we set off illegal
> firecrackers together..we were kids together and that's how I see
> Harry and Hagrid..comments?

I hadn't been able to put my finger on it, but I think you're right.
Hagrid is filling the "family" niche, as Ron and Hermione fill the
previously vacant "friend" niche and the men we discussed collectively
fill the "father." Soooo, who's providing any maternal feeling? Mrs.
Weasley?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 13:42:00 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:42:00 -0000
Subject: St. Mungo
Message-ID: <9952b8+nm4t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14642

I looked up St. Mungo in a terrific online "Lives of the Saints" and 
he's real!  He is the patron saint of Glasgow and was also known as 
Kentigern.  Interesting facts:  he was illegitimate, his name may mean 
"darling," and he died in the bath.  The cause of death is not given; 
a heart attack upon seeing a ghostly girl in spectacles peeking at 
him, perhaps?  

Other than that possibility, I don't know what he did that makes 
him the patron of magical maladies.

http://users.erols.com/saintpat/ss/ss-index.htm

Amy Z

--------------------------------------
   "But won't they notice if you shut 
 your ears in the oven door?"
   "Dobby doubts it, sir."
       -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
--------------------------------------




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Mar 19 14:40:16 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:40:16 -0000
Subject: - Nonmagical studies
In-Reply-To: <002401c0b075$c55c5a00$7314a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <9955og+upf4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14643

Okay, so what skills do they need in their society to function? 
Reading and writing, surely, and a basic understanding of magic and 
how to harness its power. They will need basic math skills, enough to 
figure out Galleons and Sickles, but not trig or geometry or even 
algebra, probably. In fact, eveything they need will be practical, 
life skills kinds of things. How much of our training--even at a 
young age--is aimed at success in a career in a science/technology 
driven world? Or at least understanding the basic operation of that 
world?

They wouldn't need any of that. You don't need engineering skill to 
create a Knights Bus, for example. It doesn't work by science or 
engineering. Things don't get repaired in the same way (grab a mess 
of tools and climb under the bus) unless you're someone like Arthur 
Weasley, and he learned those kinds of skills because it's his hobby 
and people think he's weird because of it. Social skills are 
important, obviously, but there are ways to get those aside from 
formal schooling. 

As for literature and history, well, there is a lot of that passed 
down in books and traditions, it seems. I would expect that a certain 
level of awareness of the history of the society would be considered 
important. 

So what do Wizarding kids need to know? What are the basic 
educational requirements for THEIR society? And how could they get 
those skills? Homeschooling, certainly; small schools would be 
workable. It wouldn't involved years and years of 9-months-per-year 
training. And when you look at the distances between families in 
places like Ottery St. Catchpole, that might be the only option.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From john at walton.to  Mon Mar 19 15:04:07 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:04:07 +0000
Subject: St Mungo
Message-ID: <B6DBD067.E846%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14644

> I looked up St. Mungo in a terrific online "Lives of the Saints" and
> he's real!  He is the patron saint of Glasgow and was also known as
> Kentigern.  

My auntie who teaches at St Kentigern's School ::grin:: in Cumbria told me
that Mungo was the Scottish version and Kentigern is the English version.
FWIW.

--John
____________________________________________

*"Quidditch Through The Ages" by Kennilworthy Whisp: 14 Sickles 3 Knuts
*New Firebolt Broom: just over 100 Galleons
*Watching Draco Malfoy being bounced up and down
after being turned into a ferret: Priceless

The best things in life are free. For everything else, there's Harry Potter.

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 15:30:15 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:30:15 -0000
Subject: Arithmacy
In-Reply-To: <994uhe+vg2v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9958m7+pc8s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14645



> And in PoA, Hermione gives up Trelawney's Divination class so she 
can 
> concentrate her entire attention on Arithmancy.
> 
> Arithmancy sounds, to me at least, like a magickal way to deal with 
> math.
> 
> Anyone?

I assumed that Arithmancy is simply numerology-- the "-ancy" suffix 
does mean magic. I can't remeber where I saw this in PoA, but there 
was also mention of her textbooks, or some brief description of her 
homework that soudned very distinctly arcane and magical.

The thing that threw me though was that Hermione said "It was my 
father's favorite subject." But her parents are both Muggles, right??

Maybe one way of interprettijgn this is that the course does cover 
aspects of higher math as well as the magic of numbers.

Thoughts?

Suzanne




From margdean at erols.com  Mon Mar 19 15:46:50 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:46:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: - Nonmagical studies
References: <9955og+upf4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB629EA.A2A2E407@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14646

Steve Vander Ark wrote:
 
> So what do Wizarding kids need to know? What are the basic
> educational requirements for THEIR society? And how could they get
> those skills? Homeschooling, certainly; small schools would be
> workable. It wouldn't involved years and years of 9-months-per-year
> training. 

Yes, let's remember that the present-day schooling system wasn't
produced with the sole purpose of educating children.  Part of
the goal was to get them off the streets and out of the
workforce; public schooling goes along with child labor laws and
the like.  (And the main reason our school systems have a
=summer= vacation is that the big exception to the ban on child
labor was farming families -- who needed every hand they could
get during the summer.)

Would wizarding society have these same concerns?  I doubt it. 
(They'd have =different= ones.)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From margdean at erols.com  Mon Mar 19 15:51:30 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:51:30 -0500
Subject: Arithmancy, Etc.
References: <994uhe+vg2v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB62B02.D9654ABB@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14647

Indigo wrote:
 
> Arithmancy sounds, to me at least, like a magickal way to deal with
> math.
> 
> Anyone?

"Arith-mancy" would be divination by means of numbers.  Anything
with a "-mancy" suffix is divination of some sort:  e.g.
"cheiromancy" is a fancier word for palmistry, "oneiromancy" is
divination by means of dreams, etc.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Mar 19 15:43:19 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:43:19 -0000
Subject: -mancy suffix
In-Reply-To: <3AB62B02.D9654ABB@erols.com>
Message-ID: <9959en+jp7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14648

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> Indigo wrote:
>  
> > Arithmancy sounds, to me at least, like a magickal way to deal 
with
> > math.
> > 
> > Anyone?
> 
> "Arith-mancy" would be divination by means of numbers.  Anything
> with a "-mancy" suffix is divination of some sort:  e.g.
> "cheiromancy" is a fancier word for palmistry, "oneiromancy" is
> divination by means of dreams, etc.
> 
> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   <margdean at e...>

Hmm.

But 'necromancy' is not solely confined to divination through the 
manipulation of the dead.

It usually also includes zombies and othersuch.

But the dictionary supports it as 'divination' -- so that's good 
enough for me. 

Still, numerology, as I recall, does tend to involve a bit of basic 
math because you have to know how to add and subtract, mutiply and 
divide.

Indigo
(who had some strange hobbies growing up) 




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Mar 19 15:46:06 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:46:06 -0000
Subject: Arithmacy
In-Reply-To: <9958m7+pc8s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9959ju+81mc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14649

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> 
> The thing that threw me though was that Hermione said "It was my 
> father's favorite subject." But her parents are both Muggles, 
right??

Where does she say this? I must have missed it.

You know, this whole business of 17 Sickles to the Galleon etc. 
sounds so complicated to use in daily trade, I wonder that they don't 
need some sort of math training just to make change! Or is that 
somehow inherent with magic-ness, since even Hagrid (who is no great 
brain) considers it to be "simple"?

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From landers at email.unc.edu  Mon Mar 19 15:44:53 2001
From: landers at email.unc.edu (Betty Landers)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:44:53 -0500
Subject: emperius curse and LordOf The Rings
Message-ID: <3AB62973.8D64A5B0@email.unc.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14650

I sent this to several groups and some of them may consider it off
topic.  An advance apology to them if they consider it off.
Last week I was at home for Spring Break and I read Harry Potter and the
Goblet of Fire and The Lord of the Rings.  While I was reading Lord of
the Rings, a thought crossed my mind that related to GoF.  If the
emperius curse had existed in Tolkien's world, which characters would
have been most and least likely to resist it?  That is, which characters
would be most likely to be controled by the emperius curse and which
would be most likely to resist it?

Have a wonderful day.

Betty.




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Mar 19 15:51:28 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:51:28 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands AGAIN?
In-Reply-To: <99502n+hnhn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9959u0+eelu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14651

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mssabano at y... wrote:
> 
> In Book 4 (Goblet of Fire), Harry lends his map to the 
fake 'Moody', 

I still can't figure out why he didn't just "Accio" the map to him. 
Harry must really have been in panic mode to have forgotten that.

> 
> Has Rowling simply forgotten to mention if Harry gets it back or 
has 
> she left it unmentioned for a reason?

We don't know the current location of the map, although I'm sure it 
isn't lost for good. I for one would love to see Moody back to teach 
his year at Hogwarts (I know, JKR has guaranteed a female DADA 
teacher, but she didn't say which year). So maybe he'll find it in 
the fake Moody's stuff and Harry will have a lovely little scene as 
he tries to explain why he should have it back...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 15:52:50 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:52:50 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy, Etc.
In-Reply-To: <3AB62B02.D9654ABB@erols.com>
Message-ID: <995a0i+jejh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14652

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> Indigo wrote:
>  
> > Arithmancy sounds, to me at least, like a magickal way to deal 
with
> > math.
> > 
> > Anyone?
> 
> "Arith-mancy" would be divination by means of numbers.  Anything
> with a "-mancy" suffix is divination of some sort:  e.g.
> "cheiromancy" is a fancier word for palmistry, "oneiromancy" is
> divination by means of dreams, etc.
> 
> 


Or how about Necromancy? *grins* God, I love http://www.onelook.com!

necromancy   noun [U] 
the act of communicating with the dead in order to discover what is 
going to happen in the future, or black magic magic involving evil 
spirits used for bad purposes.

The suffix -mancy yielded the following:

 [Middle English from Old French -mancie, from Late Latin -manta, from 
Greek manteia, -manteia, from manteuesthai, to prophesy, from
 mantis, prophet; see men-1 in Indo-European Roots.] 


My big question is this:  Hermione made much about how Divination and 
fortunetelling is such an inexact science-- NOTHING like Arithmancy! 
Now we find that Arithmancy is simply another form of divination. So 
why is it taught separately from Trelawny's class?

Maybe JKR was just being casual with the word (how unlike her though!) 
and really intended Arithmancy to be the magical equivalent of higher 
math (and a science!) That is the image I have anyway.

I am also left with this interesting image of Hermione's father doing 
numerical divination in his spare time....

Suzanne, Gryffindor








From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Mar 19 15:58:16 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:58:16 -0000
Subject: which house James was in
Message-ID: <995aao+8j7r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14653

Okay, some time ago someone challenged my placing James Potter in 
Gryffindor in the Lexicon. I looked around for some kind of proof, 
but there isn't any in the books. There is JKR's statement with 
regards to both Lily and Hagrid that they were in 
Gryffindor, "naturally," as if it's the most obvious thing in the 
world. And by that logic, of course James would be in Gryffindor too. 
But I wanted more proof than that.

And I found it. Not perfect, not legally binding, but it's enough for 
me to now officially place James in Gryffindor. It's in the second 
Scholastic interview. JKR is asked the question "What position did 
James play on the Gryffidor Quidditich team?" She answers that James 
was a Chaser. The fact that she doesn't correct the questioner is 
telling (she corrects other people who make other assumptions in 
their questions). Put that on top of the other logical evidence, and 
I think makes it 99.9% certain that James Potter was in fact in 
Gryffindor.

That is all. Carry on. Keep hands inside the ride at all times.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which now has pages devoted to James and Lily and (gasp) Harry Potter
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 16:00:03 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:00:03 -0000
Subject: Arithmacy
In-Reply-To: <9959ju+81mc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <995ae3+srgs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14654

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> > 
> > The thing that threw me though was that Hermione said "It was my 
> > father's favorite subject." But her parents are both Muggles, 
> right??
> 
> Where does she say this? I must have missed it.


PoA, I think. But it might have been GoF. I will search. I am POSITIVE 
she said this.

--Suzanne




From mssabano at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 16:04:02 2001
From: mssabano at yahoo.com (mssabano at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:04:02 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands?
In-Reply-To: <9959u0+eelu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <995ali+baoo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14655

In Book 3 (Prisoner of Azkaban), Harry's precious map, which he 
inherited from his father, falls into the wrong hands - Snape's. We 
all think that this is the end of this magical map but luckily; Snape 
doesn't know how to use it!

In Book 4 (Goblet of Fire), Harry lends his map to the fake 'Moody', 
but it doesn't say anywhere in the book if he gets it back! Does he? 
The last time the map is mentioned is in Crouch's 'confession' after 
drinking the Truth potion.

Has Rowling simply forgotten to mention if Harry gets it back or has 
she left it unmentioned for a reason?

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> I still can't figure out why he didn't just "Accio" the map to him. 
> Harry must really have been in panic mode to have forgotten that.

> We don't know the current location of the map, although I'm sure it 
> isn't lost for good. I for one would love to see Moody back to 
teach 
> his year at Hogwarts (I know, JKR has guaranteed a female DADA 
> teacher, but she didn't say which year). So maybe he'll find it in 
> the fake Moody's stuff and Harry will have a lovely little scene as 
> he tries to explain why he should have it back...
> 
> Steve Vander Ark
> The Harry Potter Lexicon

Do you think Dumbledore would give the map back to Harry?




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 16:05:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:05:44 -0000
Subject: necessary math knowledge - LOTR
In-Reply-To: <9959en+jp7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <995aoo+kag6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14656

Indigo (who had some strange hobbies growing up) wrote:

> Still, numerology, as I recall, does tend to involve a bit of basic 
> math because you have to know how to add and subtract, mutiply and 
> divide.
> 

I'm with Steve:  this is the kind of knowledge a child will easily 
know well before 11 through homeschooling.  I would add (unschooler to 
the last) that it wouldn't take formal homeschooling, either.  A child 
of 6 can easily learn arithmetic (meaning add, subtract, multiply, 
divide).  Ditto with reading and writing--I could do both before I 
started formal education (well, printing anyway), which is not at all 
unusual.

I just wonder about literature, nonmagical history, science (which is 
true and interesting even if you can circumvent physics with magic!), 
etc. . . . don't wizarding kids ever want or need to learn them?

Betty, great LOTR question--see OT-chatter for my thoughts (in a few 
hours--gotta run some errands).

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
"You've got just as much right as wizards to be unhappy!"
                           -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------------------




From margdean at erols.com  Mon Mar 19 16:22:20 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:22:20 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arithmancy, Etc.
References: <995a0i+jejh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB6323C.A34DE89@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14657

rainy_lilac at yahoo.com wrote:
 
> My big question is this:  Hermione made much about how Divination and
> fortunetelling is such an inexact science-- NOTHING like Arithmancy!
> Now we find that Arithmancy is simply another form of divination. So
> why is it taught separately from Trelawny's class?
> 
> Maybe JKR was just being casual with the word (how unlike her though!)
> and really intended Arithmancy to be the magical equivalent of higher
> math (and a science!) That is the image I have anyway.

I suspect it's JKR's joke on how we tend to think that something
"magically" ;) becomes an exact science once you can slap a lot
of numbers on it and play around with them.  Well, don't we? 
Anything that can be quantified is "exact" and "scientific"
whereas anything that deals with qualities rather than quantities
is, at best, "soft science."


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Mar 19 16:08:30 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:08:30 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands?
In-Reply-To: <995ali+baoo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <995atu+mo33@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14658

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mssabano at y... wrote:
> In Book 3 (Prisoner of Azkaban), Harry's precious map, which he 
> inherited from his father, falls into the wrong hands - Snape's. We 
> all think that this is the end of this magical map but luckily; 
Snape 
> doesn't know how to use it!
> 
> In Book 4 (Goblet of Fire), Harry lends his map to the fake 'Moody', 
> but it doesn't say anywhere in the book if he gets it back! Does he? 
> The last time the map is mentioned is in Crouch's 'confession' after 
> drinking the Truth potion.
> 
> Has Rowling simply forgotten to mention if Harry gets it back or has 
> she left it unmentioned for a reason?
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> > I still can't figure out why he didn't just "Accio" the map to 
him. 
> > Harry must really have been in panic mode to have forgotten that.
> 
> > We don't know the current location of the map, although I'm sure 
it 
> > isn't lost for good. I for one would love to see Moody back to 
> teach 
> > his year at Hogwarts (I know, JKR has guaranteed a female DADA 
> > teacher, but she didn't say which year). So maybe he'll find it in 
> > the fake Moody's stuff and Harry will have a lovely little scene 
as 
> > he tries to explain why he should have it back...
> > 
> > Steve Vander Ark
> > The Harry Potter Lexicon
> 
> Do you think Dumbledore would give the map back to Harry?

Yes, actually, I do.

Dumbledore has already showed that he can look the other way or go 
"selectively deaf" when it suits his purposes so as not to reprimand 
Harry and the others when they're out-of-bounds or breaking the rules.

Plus, the map is a major memento: 

It ties Harry to his father James, to Sirius Black (who has still not 
had his name cleared and thus can't openly be around looking after 
Harry), and to Remus Lupin, whom Harry actually liked.

And Dumbledore's been shown to have a sentimental side.  He made sure 
Harry got the Invisibility Cloak, and I'm fairly sure although it 
wasn't explicitly mentioned, that he made sure the Firebolt survived 
all its jinx and curse tests in top condition.

Beyond that, there have been too many occasions of the faculty being 
compromised.  Quirrell, then Moody.  It might be safer in Harry's 
hands than in any of the teachers'.

Indigo





From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Mar 19 16:09:42 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:09:42 -0000
Subject: necessary math knowledge - LOTR
In-Reply-To: <995aoo+kag6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <995b06+mkja@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14659

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Indigo (who had some strange hobbies growing up) wrote:
> 
> > Still, numerology, as I recall, does tend to involve a bit of 
basic 
> > math because you have to know how to add and subtract, mutiply and 
> > divide.
> > 
> 
> I'm with Steve:  this is the kind of knowledge a child will easily 
> know well before 11 through homeschooling.  I would add (unschooler 
to 
> the last) that it wouldn't take formal homeschooling, either.  A 
child 
> of 6 can easily learn arithmetic (meaning add, subtract, multiply, 
> divide).  Ditto with reading and writing--I could do both before I 
> started formal education (well, printing anyway), which is not at 
all 
> unusual.
> 
> I just wonder about literature, nonmagical history, science (which 
is 
> true and interesting even if you can circumvent physics with 
magic!), 
> etc. . . . don't wizarding kids ever want or need to learn them?
> 

This is true.

I was reading at 2, and although I hate math, I knew the basics before 
Kindergarten.

I guess that's that, then. 

Indigo




From margdean at erols.com  Mon Mar 19 16:37:14 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:37:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA:  Dementors and Aunt Marge
References: <994465+808b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB635BA.A7572237@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14660

linman6868 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> I should probably check the archives for a topic of this sort, but
> it's occurred to me the last several times I've read PoA that Harry's
> struggle for the book is set up right from the Dursley episode in the
> beginning.  A poster mentioned that every episode with the Dursleys
> is designed to mirror to Harry what NOT to do; I've also been
> wondering if each episode with the Dursleys mirrors in little the
> conflict Harry's about to experience in the wizarding world.
> 
> Nowhere is this more evident to me than in the Aunt Marge episode.
> In order to survive Aunt Marge's visit, Harry forces himself to think
> about the Broomcare Handbook.  This forced concentration both diverts
> his attention from Aunt Marge's gibes and controls his emotional
> response to the gibes he does hear.  In effect, it's a Muggle version
> of a Patronus Charm.  Only it doesn't work.  Harry snaps, he does
> magical revenge, and then he runs away.

I think it's also instructive to note =when= Harry snaps.  He can
take it as long as Aunt Marge confines her gibes to him
personally, but when she starts insulting his parents it's the
last straw.  (And one can hardly blame him.  In many societies
remarks like that would be sufficient grounds for a challenge to
a duel.  To the death.)

And then note the content of Harry's dementor-induced
hallucinations (or whatever you want to call them).
 

--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 16:22:49 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:22:49 -0000
Subject: necessary math knowledge - LOTR
In-Reply-To: <995aoo+kag6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <995bop+eo1d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14661

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Indigo (who had some strange hobbies growing up) wrote:
> 
> > Still, numerology, as I recall, does tend to involve a bit of 
basic 
> > math because you have to know how to add and subtract, mutiply 
and 
> > divide.
> > 
> 
> I'm with Steve:  this is the kind of knowledge a child will easily 
> know well before 11 through homeschooling.  I would add (unschooler 
to 
> the last) that it wouldn't take formal homeschooling, either.  A 
child 
> of 6 can easily learn arithmetic (meaning add, subtract, multiply, 
> divide).  Ditto with reading and writing--I could do both before I 
> started formal education (well, printing anyway), which is not at 
all 
> unusual.
> 
> I just wonder about literature, nonmagical history, science (which 
is 
> true and interesting even if you can circumvent physics with 
magic!), 

No, no, no. You use physics to circumvent magic! Remember - Hermione 
said of electronic devices that they were substitutes for magic, not 
the other way around. :)
Also, nonmagical history wouldn't interets the magical community, 
generally speaking. They don't even read muggle newspapers (it's 
implied by Dumbledore). Science also is irrelevent for magic people. 

I think that we have to adjust to the idea that the magic community 
isn't a kind of ethnic minority (that is, different from but also 
part of the larger society), but an *alternative* society. There are 
crossovers (is that the term?) and points where these societies meet 
and influence each other, but they are very separate, even alien to 
each other. The separateness is best exemplified in that they have 
different histories. Muggle history would be for them an esoteric 
field of knowledge (like Chinese history for 18th century Europeans).
 

Naama







From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Mar 19 16:51:04 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:51:04 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy, Etc.
In-Reply-To: <995a0i+jejh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <995ddo+indv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14662

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:

> My big question is this:  Hermione made much about how Divination 
and 
> fortunetelling is such an inexact science-- NOTHING like Arithmancy! 
> Now we find that Arithmancy is simply another form of divination. So 
> why is it taught separately from Trelawny's class?
> 
> Maybe JKR was just being casual with the word (how unlike her 
though!) 
> and really intended Arithmancy to be the magical equivalent of 
higher 
> math (and a science!) That is the image I have anyway.
> 
> I am also left with this interesting image of Hermione's father 
doing 
> numerical divination in his spare time....
> 

I think it's Hermione's insecurity speaking, if arithmancy is a form 
of divination. Hermione wasn't good at divination, which is rather 
intuitive (dare I say "psychic"?). Arithmancy seems more "exact" (from 
what little we know about it) because it most likely uses numbers 
which are more tangible and less subjective than interpreting the 
formation of tea leaves. 

I look at arithmancy as the "magic numbers" idea I learned in 
theology. That is certain numbers have a meaning, for example 3 and 
12. Perhaps arithmancy is the interpretation of these number 
combinations and how they can be used in magic. 

:-)Milz 




From girlflyer at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 17:17:32 2001
From: girlflyer at hotmail.com (girlflyer at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:17:32 -0000
Subject: Various bits and pieces
In-Reply-To: <992a5f+mfi3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <995evc+fjmb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14663

Hi,

I'm new to the list, so I don't know if this has been discussed 
before, but in regards to Professor Sinistra's gender, I just 
finished GoF for the 2nd time and spotted a line in GoF that might 
provide some insight.  From Chapter 23 (The Yule Ball), page 420:

"Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with 
Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden leg."

Now this seems to imply that Sinistra is a female, though I suppose 
two men could be dancing together!

Michelle

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Sorry, FAQ compilers, but I'm doing such a good job consolidating 
that 
> there are too many subjects to list <g>.
> 
> I wrote:
> >Sinistra fans, your day will come!
> 
> Dave wrote:
> >And once and for all, we'll know what his/her gender really is!
> 
> When I read this, it came back to me that I had a dream in which I 
saw 
> Sinistra's first name written down, and it was completely 
unrevealing. 
>  Too funny!





From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Mon Mar 19 17:26:15 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:26:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Various bits and pieces
References: <995evc+fjmb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB64136.998FB62F@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 14664

Hey everyone...

Okay, this might be a stupid question (even though there are none), and I would answer the question myself, but someone has borrowed my copy of GoF, but WHO is professor Sinistra? Now, I know a lot of you may gasp, and go, "How can he not
know?", but I've been racking my brain and I can't think of who s/he might be! It's annoying the h-e-double broomsticks out of me, and I just need to know. Can anyone help me out here?

Thanx a mill,
Jamieson

girlflyer at hotmail.com wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm new to the list, so I don't know if this has been discussed
> before, but in regards to Professor Sinistra's gender, I just
> finished GoF for the 2nd time and spotted a line in GoF that might
> provide some insight.  From Chapter 23 (The Yule Ball), page 420:
>
> "Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with
> Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden leg."
>
> Now this seems to imply that Sinistra is a female, though I suppose
> two men could be dancing together!
>
> Michelle
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > Sorry, FAQ compilers, but I'm doing such a good job consolidating
> that
> > there are too many subjects to list <g>.
> >
> > I wrote:
> > >Sinistra fans, your day will come!
> >
> > Dave wrote:
> > >And once and for all, we'll know what his/her gender really is!
> >
> > When I read this, it came back to me that I had a dream in which I
> saw
> > Sinistra's first name written down, and it was completely
> unrevealing.
> >  Too funny!
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 17:43:56 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:43:56 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Dudley magical? (was Re: Chapter 35 - fathers & sons)
Message-ID: <F281oe2U8QVjp3b6uIU0000003c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14665

I've been pondering the possibility that one or both Evans (parents of 
Petunia and Lily) are/were Muggle descendants of Squibs -- going along with 
the idea that the non-magical child of a Squib would be a Muggle.
I think they were raised in a Squib household - with visits from magical 
Gram/Gramps (maybe great?).  That explains for me how Lily got away with 
doing magic at home (stated by Petunia,"Keeper of the Keys", PS/SS - don't 
have my book for chapter # (11?) and exact quote), something like 
"...turning teacups into frogs...".  The MoM might not have checked up on 
small amounts of magic occuring in a Squib home.  That would also explain 
why Petunia was so angry (jealous) about her parents being happy about 
having a witch in the family (same chapter).  I think Mom and Dad Evans were 
happy that the next generation wasn't going to be totally removed from the 
the magical community -- and Petunia was angry that if only one of them were 
magical it had to be Lily.
This idea also provides an explanation for Petunia even telly Vernon 
anything about the magical world's existence (the possibility that their 
child might end up with some magic).  I don't think she told him because 
Lily and James were likely to turn up for Sunday dinner.  They weren't that 
close, and besides Petunia could have told Lily to use the door and wear 
"regular" clothes.  Magical folks don't generally do magic in front of 
Muggles as far as I can tell, so it would have been a non-issue (assuming 
that Petunia and Vernon had anything to do with the Potters at all).  Why 
tell Vernon at all unless to prepare him for a "seemingly" remote 
possibility?
That also leads to her seeming hatred (jealousy) of Harry.  She found out 
when he was a year old (from Dumbledore's letter) that he was definitely 
magical, and probably very powerful as well.  For all that she says she 
hates/disapproves of magic, I think she was upset that Lily's son got 
ability and hers, seemingly, did not.
This is getting long - I've been waiting to get opinions on my theory - 
sorry.  All this to say, I thinks it's very possible that Dudley has a small 
amount of magical ability.  We'll find out when he grabs Harry's wand and 
tries to use it (to create magic in the house and get Harry kicked out of 
school) -- and something magical actually happens (to his complete surprise 
and Petunia's secret delight).
Of course, if the MoM didn't have the "Decree against underage wizards" 
(can't remember the exact name at the moment) when Lily was in Hogwarts, my 
theory gets a few holes right away.  Does anybody know when that went into 
effect?  I haven't got FB and QTA yet, and I'm curious.
If this line of thought has already been discussed, please excuse my 
ignorance (and possibly point me to the thread). Thanks.

ladylprekaun
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 17:54:32 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:54:32 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands AGAIN?
Message-ID: <F237XdPsGwOCcRq3yaQ000043b7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14666

I've been wondering about the Marauder's Map myself.  It's such powerful 
magic (would have to be, wouldn't it?) that I can't see Dumbledore just 
handing over to a group of underage wizards - especially with all the "bad" 
he's anticipating.  Maybe "Scar", "Brainy", "Red", and "Klutzy" - Harry, 
Hermione, Ron, and Neville - will have to develop another one once the full 
grown wizards take theirs.  I'm sure Fred and George would help with the 
layout (blueprint), if not with the actual spells to make it work.

ladylprekaun
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From girlflyer at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 17:56:07 2001
From: girlflyer at hotmail.com (girlflyer at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:56:07 -0000
Subject: Various bits and pieces
In-Reply-To: <3AB64136.998FB62F@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <995h7n+9ae0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14667

I think Sinistra is professor of astronomy, but I can't remember at 
the moment where I saw that.  

Michelle

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson <crowswolf at s...> wrote:
> Hey everyone...
> 
> Okay, this might be a stupid question (even though there are none), 
and I would answer the question myself, but someone has borrowed my 
copy of GoF, but WHO is professor Sinistra? Now, I know a lot of you 
may gasp, and go, "How can he not
> know?", but I've been racking my brain and I can't think of who 
s/he might be! It's annoying the h-e-double broomsticks out of me, 
and I just need to know. Can anyone help me out here?
> 
> Thanx a mill,
> Jamieson
> 
> girlflyer at h... wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm new to the list, so I don't know if this has been discussed
> > before, but in regards to Professor Sinistra's gender, I just
> > finished GoF for the 2nd time and spotted a line in GoF that might
> > provide some insight.  From Chapter 23 (The Yule Ball), page 420:
> >
> > "Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with
> > Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden leg."
> >
> > Now this seems to imply that Sinistra is a female, though I 
suppose
> > two men could be dancing together!
> >
> > Michelle
> >
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > > Sorry, FAQ compilers, but I'm doing such a good job 
consolidating
> > that
> > > there are too many subjects to list <g>.
> > >
> > > I wrote:
> > > >Sinistra fans, your day will come!
> > >
> > > Dave wrote:
> > > >And once and for all, we'll know what his/her gender really is!
> > >
> > > When I read this, it came back to me that I had a dream in 
which I
> > saw
> > > Sinistra's first name written down, and it was completely
> > unrevealing.
> > >  Too funny!
> >
> >
> > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> >
> > >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be 
posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for 
everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those 
they don't.
> >
> > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, 
point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-
OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team 
at hpforgrownups-owner at y...
> >
> > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-
unsubscribe at y...)
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 18:55:24 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:55:24 -0000
Subject: Moody in Disguise (Chapter 35 Filk)
In-Reply-To: <99309m+crgn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <995kmt+edju@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14668

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Moody in Disguise 
> 
> (To the tune of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds)
> 
> Dedicated to Susan McGee
> 
> (The Scene: The office of the Dark Arts Professor.  DUMBLEDORE and 
> Company  have just rescued HARRY from Barty Crouch, Jr, who has been 
> impersonating Alastor Moody. Understandably enough with all he's 
just 
> been through, HARRY can do no more than babble incoherently)

Caius
Brilliant again!
I love this one - we really should have a Billboard chart for filks, 
this one would stay on top for weeks!
Well, I guess as I'm nearly 100 posts behind, you may have already 
topped yourself and I don't know it yet.
Either way - Bravo! 
and thanks for the fun
kimberly




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar 19 19:19:47 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:19:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA:  Dementors and Aunt Marge
References: <994465+808b@eGroups.com> <3AB635BA.A7572237@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3AB65BD2.1AAB3BDD@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14669

Margaret Dean wrote:

> I think it's also instructive to note =when= Harry snaps.  He can take
> it as long as Aunt Marge confines her gibes to him personally, but
> when she starts insulting his parents it's the last straw.  (And one
> can hardly blame him.  In many societies remarks like that would be
> sufficient grounds for a challenge to a duel.  To the death.)

But the Muggle/wizard dichotomy that was proposed doesn't bear out,
because it is with a dig about his father that Snape gets a major rise
out of Harry (also in PoA). I think it's not really a parallel, so much
as clearly a major Button, that Harry will have to learn to control his
response to (or else he'll be fairly easily manipulable by someone
knowing to "diss" his parents at the right time).

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Mar 19 19:26:13 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:26:13 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands AGAIN?
In-Reply-To: <F237XdPsGwOCcRq3yaQ000043b7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <995mgl+5snj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14670

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "A. Green" <aprilgc at h...> wrote:
> I've been wondering about the Marauder's Map myself.  It's such 
> powerful  magic (would have to be, wouldn't it?) that I can't see 
> Dumbledore just  handing over to a group of underage wizards - 
> especially with all  the "bad" he's anticipating.  Maybe "Scar", 
> "Brainy", "Red", and "Klutzy" - Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Neville - 
> will have to develop another one once the full grown wizards take 
> theirs.  I'm sure Fred and George would help with the 
> layout (blueprint), if not with the actual spells to make it work.
> 
> ladylprekaun

Possible though that Dumbledore knew about it all this time.  He's 
been shown to do that at least once already. He's also been shown to 
sort of be affectionately indulgent of James Potter. And Harry's 
situation is much, much worse. 

He might think Harry needs every possible advantage he can get.

But you never know.

Somehow I don't see Hermione really participating. She has broken some 
rules willingly but not happily.

 And the Marauders Map is all about breaking rules.





From steve.shea at thornwater.com  Mon Mar 19 19:31:09 2001
From: steve.shea at thornwater.com (steve.shea at thornwater.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:31:09 -0000
Subject: Potter as a Social Commentary?
Message-ID: <995mpt+dgks@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14671

Has anyone else come to the conclusion that something is going to 
happen to bring the muggle and wizard worlds together? This has been 
an underlying thread thru all 4 books. Harry being brought up in the 
muggle world even though he was one of the most famous wizards of the 
day. Voldemort being Harry's nemisis hates all muggles and 
mudbloods. Dumbledore and the Weasleys being muggle supporters. The 
books are almost a social commentary on racism. Then again I've been 
known for being wrong before. Either way I cant wait for book 5. 




From vderark at bccs.org  Mon Mar 19 19:45:33 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:45:33 -0000
Subject: Various bits and pieces
In-Reply-To: <3AB64136.998FB62F@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <995nkt+nput@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14672

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson <crowswolf at s...> wrote:
> Hey everyone...
> 
> Okay, this might be a stupid question (even though there are none), 
and I would answer the question myself, but someone has borrowed my 
copy of GoF, but WHO is professor Sinistra

Just FYI: if you have questions like this, a great place to go is the 
Harry Potter Lexicon. You can search for "Sinistra" or follow the 
prompts from the main page:

Wizarding world => Hogwarts School of witchcraft and wizardry => 
staff members, past and present

The Lexicon was designed to make finding the answers to these kinds 
of questions very simple. 

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 19 20:43:22 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 14:43:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands AGAIN?
References: <99502n+hnhn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004101c0b0b5$3ff40620$8614a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14673

The last time the map is mentioned is in Crouch's 'confession' after
drinking the Truth potion.

Has Rowling simply forgotten to mention if Harry gets it back or has
she left it unmentioned for a reason?

Mike

No, it doesn't say he gets it back, but that is such a simple thing to
correct. Dumbledore, or Hagrid, or even Snape might give it to him at the
beginning of the next term. Or, the new DADA might give it to him, knowing
somehow that it is his, and also, like Snape, not know what it is.
Therefore, it would seem harmless enough giving it back to Harry. Maybe it
is in an envelope or drawer marked, "confiscated from Harry Potter."

Doreen




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 21:03:21 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:03:21 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] St. Mungo
References: <9952b8+nm4t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c701c0b0b8$0ab6d840$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14674

Amy Z wrote:
**Other than that possibility, I don't know what he did that makes 
him the patron of magical maladies.**

I visited Glasgow over Hogmany (New Year's if you're not a pretentious American like me) and heard a bunch of stories about St. Mungo -- the entire city crest is based on stories around him. According to one story I heard quite a few times, says after a group of boys killed a bird beloved to St. Serf, his mentor,and blamed it on him, Mungo prayed over the bird and it came back to life.  That's the story that I thought of.  Mungo, apparently, was pretty good at healing and was a rather powerful guy who has quite a few miracles to his credit.

Abbie, whose grandfather was born in Dalmuir and so considers herself Scottish

starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amy Z 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, 19 March, 2001 8:42 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] St. Mungo


  I looked up St. Mungo in a terrific online "Lives of the Saints" and 
  he's real!  He is the patron saint of Glasgow and was also known as 
  Kentigern.  Interesting facts:  he was illegitimate, his name may mean 
  "darling," and he died in the bath.  The cause of death is not given; 
  a heart attack upon seeing a ghostly girl in spectacles peeking at 
  him, perhaps?  

  Other than that possibility, I don't know what he did that makes 
  him the patron of magical maladies.

  http://users.erols.com/saintpat/ss/ss-index.htm

  Amy Z

  --------------------------------------
     "But won't they notice if you shut 
  your ears in the oven door?"
     "Dobby doubts it, sir."
         -HP and the Chamber of Secrets
  --------------------------------------


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From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 21:41:34 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:41:34 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands AGAIN?
In-Reply-To: <004101c0b0b5$3ff40620$8614a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <995uee+hebi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14675


Maybe Dobby will steal it back for him? He so adores Harry! I could 
picture that scene.

I cannot see ANY teacher knowingly returning such a thing to a 
student. But obviously for the plot, it must fall again in harry's 
hands.


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> The last time the map is mentioned is in Crouch's 'confession' after
> drinking the Truth potion.
> 
> Has Rowling simply forgotten to mention if Harry gets it back or has
> she left it unmentioned for a reason?
> 
> Mike
> 
> No, it doesn't say he gets it back, but that is such a simple thing 
to
> correct. Dumbledore, or Hagrid, or even Snape might give it to him 
at the
> beginning of the next term. Or, the new DADA might give it to him, 
knowing
> somehow that it is his, and also, like Snape, not know what it is.
> Therefore, it would seem harmless enough giving it back to Harry. 
Maybe it
> is in an envelope or drawer marked, "confiscated from Harry Potter."
> 
> Doreen




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 22:05:35 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:05:35 -0000
Subject: About Plots and forshadowings, Red Herrings and Whatnot
Message-ID: <995vrf+rnfi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14676

Here are some of my idle thoughts for the day, thinking like a writer:

1.)  The map must return to Harry's hands. Whatever event precipitates 
this will likely be interesting and maybe funny. I can't see someone 
just handing it to him. Not in character for a teacher to do, and 
not interesting enough.

2.)  Weasley Wizard Wheezes! Somehow I suspect that the Weasley 
brothers have a greater role to play that simply providing comic 
relief. Has anyone else noticed a certain emphasis on how their trick 
wands look just like real ones? I imagine a moment, a crucial moment, 
when some dark malevolent being snatches up a wand so as to perform 
the "Avada Kedavra".... Only to have it turn into a rubber chicken. 
Likewise those canary creams-- don't they, uhmmmm, have some potential 
as a weapon?

3.)  What is going to happen with these Centaurs? We already know that 
Firenze is a bit a renegade, willing to take a stand against dark 
forces while his fellow centaurs insist that it is not their place to 
change the course of events. I don't know about the rest of you, but 
that scene in the forest brings up great ethical material which I 
think is at the heart of this series. FB mad me think a lot about the 
centaurs-- so far they have seen themselves as separate from humans, 
insisting on being called beasts so that they can maintain their 
separateness. Is this going to come to an end? Will Fireze lead a 
revolution of sorts? Since he knows his way around the Forbidden 
Forest, he could be important.

4.)  Back to that forest-- there is a Ford Anglia in there somewhere, 
and it has a mind of its own. It MUST return!! It has too! And 
whatever happened to Sirius's flying motorcycle? It has to be 
somewhere, right?

5.)  Malfoy Manor-- I am sure we are going to find ourselves there 
because there is that secret chamber under their dining room (which 
unbeknowst to the Malfoy's, Arthur Weasley knows about!) Such a room 
cannot exist and NOT be used! 

6.)  Has anyone else here wondered why it is exactly that the Malfoys 
have it in for Hagrid? Okay, so they don't like him, but Malfoy Sr. 
seems to be going to inordinate lengths to hurt him, get him fired, 
have him thrown into Azkaban, etc. Where is Hagrid's pink umbrella and 
when are we going to learn more about what he did with the pieces of 
his wand? What will happen when he meets his mother again after all 
these years (he must!) Will we ever see Norbert again-- and will he, 
ala Androcles and the Lion, "remember Mommy"? Somehow I just can't 
believe that Norbert existed only to establish Hagrid's love for 
fierce pets.

7.)  Speaking of which, those dang spiders! And Rons fear of them 
(hmm, will he have to face that fear and defeat it?) They have got to 
be coming back..... Maybe they will make a snack out of Lucius Malfoy 
(wishful thinking....)

8.)  Does anyone else suspect that Percy Weasley is going to 
unwittingly aid the dark forces through his work with MoM? A man's 
fate is his character, and I think Percy may soon be learning that 
being "correct" is not necessarily the same as being "right". Who will 
he work for next in the ministry? Fudge perhaps?

More later.... Just thought I would take these out for a spin.


--Suzanne





From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 22:09:50 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:09:50 -0000
Subject: About Plots and forshadowings, Red Herrings and Whatnot
In-Reply-To: <995vrf+rnfi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99603e+ds8b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14677



Oh, and Ludo Bagman! He is going to return to Voldemort-- not because 
he believes in the dark cause, but because he is selfish and, with 
Goblin Collection Agencies nipping at his heels, is now desperate for 
money. 

--Suzanne




From tanwo at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 22:19:20 2001
From: tanwo at hotmail.com (tanwo at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:19:20 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy, Etc.
In-Reply-To: <995ddo+indv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9960l8+udgs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14678

The Shorter OED defines Arithmancy as "divination by numbers". First 
recorded usage is 1577.




From tanwo at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 22:22:32 2001
From: tanwo at hotmail.com (tanwo at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:22:32 -0000
Subject: Muggles at Hogwarts [Reply Wotan]
In-Reply-To: <9944sa+ngv7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9960r8+qb8g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14679

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> Wotan:"I'm no HPologist - but do we know for *sure* that Hermione's 
> parents are muggles? Maybe they're in deep cover (and who'd suspect 
a 
> dentist!) ... Hermione, for example, seems a natural witch!"
> 
> They're muggles. They're described as such on numerous occasions. 
> Besides, Hermione's muggle-born heritage is important to the themes 
of 
> the books. She, a brilliant student, is looked down on by many as a 
> "mudblood" -- a word with the same emotional punch as some of our 
> racial/ethnic epithets.
> 
> May I humbly plug my own, "The Letter," as a story about how 
> muggle-borns might get introduced to the magic world? It's in the 
> Files section here.  If you choose to read it, I'd appreciate your 
> thoughts.

JKR might want to have a bit of fun with us though! The mudblood 
turns out to have more ancestry than the Malfoys ... Charles Dickens 
is one of her favourite authors.

I'll see if I can find "The Letter".





From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Mar 19 22:24:46 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:24:46 -0000
Subject: Muggle Studies,  Aunt Petunia a Witch? and Other Things... 
Message-ID: <9960ve+gds3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14680

Hmmm, I've just been reading all the posts that I missed while I was 
at work :-( .  I have many responses...

Okay, in relation to all the postings about how witches and wizards 
get educated when they are young and if they study Muggle subjects, I 
was wondering why the magical world celebrated holidays like Halloween 
and Christmas.  Does magical history cross with Muggle history, or 
shouldn't they have their own holidays?  Does that mean that all 
witches and wizards are Christian?  Just a thought.

Now, if Dudley might somehow be able to use a wand (or so we 
speculate), isn't it also possible that Aunt Petunia is really a 
witch, and has always been one?  Perhaps she is part of what protects 
Harry from Voldie while he isn't at Hogwarts.  Perhaps also her hatred 
of magic is all an act (much like Moody was a fake, Scabbers wasn't a 
real rat and Sirius wasn't a murderer).

Snapey - how can he be against dark wizards yet do such potentially 
harmful things at the same time?  He was ready to send Sirius to the 
dementors and in GoF he wouldn't let Harry talk to Dumbledore when 
Crouch Sr turned up at Hogwarts and Harry was so clearly panicking 
(which he doesn't do too often).  Once again, I am reminded of how 
complex a character Snape is.  He's a bad good guy, kind of like the 
person you work with and hate but have to respect because they are so 
good at what they do and will work with you very well if necessary.  I 
don't see Snape as any kind of father figure, but more as a part of 
the motif throughout the series that "things are not what they seem to 
be".  We cannot take Snape at face value, but must examine him on 
various levels.  There is also no proof that he wanted the DADA 
position, but where did the ever lasting rumor come from?

Sorry for rambling - just love to talk about HP!

--




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Mon Mar 19 22:26:05 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:26:05 -0000
Subject: Sinistra (was: Various bits and pieces)
In-Reply-To: <995nkt+nput@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99611t+q1ta@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14681


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jamieson <crowswolf at s...> wrote:
> > Okay, this might be a stupid question (even though there are 
none), 
and I would answer the question myself, but someone has borrowed my 
copy of GoF, but WHO is professor Sinistra


I think sinistra is male, actually - jk rowling has stated that the 
gender allotment among Hogwarts professors is fifty-fifty, and they 
are ten, not counting those in mugglestudies and ancient rune that we 
know nothing about, and dumbledore, as being the headmaster.

Which would make the guys: 
Snape
Flitwick
Hagrid
Binns

And the girls:
McGonagall
Sprout
Hooch
Trelawney
Vector
 
yeah. so professor sinistra would then have to fill the gap in the 
guyline. 

/Jenifer




From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 23:02:01 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:02:01 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] About Plots and forshadowings, Red Herrings and Whatnot
Message-ID: <F239Sv0YKpDS7hx27kB00004987@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14682


>
>2.)  Weasley Wizard Wheezes! <snip> Has anyone else noticed a certain 
>emphasis on how their trick wands look just like real ones?<snip> some dark 
>malevolent being snatches up a wand so as to perform the "Avada 
>Kedavra".... Only to have it turn into a rubber chicken.
<snip>

Maybe Ludo gets redemption by intentionally handing it off.

>6.)  <snip> Where is Hagrid's pink umbrella and
>when are we going to learn more about what he did with the pieces of
>his wand? <snip>

I think the umbrella handle IS  his wand (or at least part of it).  We know 
they function (at least to some degree) even broken because of what the 
Whomping Willow did to Ron's in CoS, and Hagrid's reaction when Mr. 
Ollivander asked him about it in PS/SS.

When he said about taking his cue from "Moody" (Draco the ferret), I could 
see the pink umbrella coming out to give young Master Malfoy the tail he 
deserves. :)

I wonder if he actually stopped learning magic, though. Dumbeldore thought 
he was innocent, and kept him around. He spends time with the staff, and 
even does a little magic in his garden (making things grow).  He has access 
to the books, the ingredients ... and Dumbeldore to turn a blind eye?  Is it 
possible that in all his time at Hogwarts he's completed his magical 
training - just not officially?  Or, now that he's been cleared the way is 
paved for him to take one of those "home study" courses and get himself a 
new wand?
Knowing that he was wrongfully accused, though, and knowing about his desire 
to do magic - I really can't see him just hanging around Hogwarts and not 
doing some studying on the side.

>8.)  Does anyone else suspect that Percy Weasley is going to
>unwittingly aid the dark forces through his work with MoM? A man's
>fate is his character, and I think Percy may soon be learning that
>being "correct" is not necessarily the same as being "right". Who will
>he work for next in the ministry? Fudge perhaps?
>
>More later.... Just thought I would take these out for a spin.
>
>
>--Suzanne>

I think we saw that one coming in the way Ron worried about BC senior's 
actions - and commented about how Percy would have responded in the same 
situation.  I see him turning Ron in, or telling something he's overheard to 
Fudge (gaining an audience with the most important person in MoM to boost 
his career).  I don't like Fudge.  He was hanging around when Sirius got 
"arrested", and wouldn't be Minister if BC, junior hadn't been arrested -- 
wouldn't surprise me if he was the "arresting officer" so to speak.  Maybe 
he even set up the Longbottoms so that he could set a trap for BC, junior?
OK, rambling again.  Maybe more after I've thought through these latest 
possible twists.
Thanks for the train, Suzanne.

ladylprekaun
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From paxber at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 23:16:17 2001
From: paxber at yahoo.com (paxber at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 23:16:17 -0000
Subject: Muggles at Hogwarts [Reply Wotan]
In-Reply-To: <9960r8+qb8g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <996401+ms0v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14683

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > May I humbly plug my own, "The Letter," as a story about how 
> > muggle-borns might get introduced to the magic world? It's in the 
> > Files section here.  If you choose to read it, I'd appreciate 
your 
> > thoughts.


You may NOT!!! You just go back to your desk and get busy writing the 
third part, and don't be wasting precious writing time on advertising 
<g>.

If the rest of it is as good as the first part, I think word of mouth 
will be more than sufficient. I spotted a very few turns of phrase 
that didn't quite "sound" British (too casual, or something) but 
aside from that, I think it's quite wonderful.

Paula2




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 19 23:40:14 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:40:14 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Friendly Reminder re: Fanfic Discussions
Message-ID: <3AB698DE.AE2DD76C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14684

Hi --

Okay, I can tell you all have been ignoring the ADMIN messages about the
Announcements & OT-Chatter groups. Yeah, you know -- the ones I've been
sending out *every day* for 2 weeks now.  <g>

Please remember that fanfic plugs belong on the Announcements list.
Discussions of fanfic should be moved to OT-Chatter.  There are lots of
great fanfic listserves & sites out there too (see our Links section for
some recommendations).  We do want to give our member FF authors the
chance to plug their chapters -- but it should be done on Announcements
(one plug per chapter).  We decided to move discussion of fanfics over
to OT-Chatter to try & reduce message volume.

Also, while I have your attention (hopefully) -- please review what goes
into Announcements & what goes into OT-Chatter.  If you're ever unsure
about whether something belongs someplace other than our main group, the
Moderators would be happy to give you some guidance.  The lists of
subject topics that belong in each of these groups can also be found on
the Home Page for the Announcements & OT-Chatter groups, respectively,
and they can be found in the Files section of the main group (and in the
VFAQ document  -- also in the Files section of this group).  Our overall
objective is not to confuse people (or make anyone angry).  We're just
trying to address concerns about the huge message volume that were
raised in the last few months.

So, it will be very helpful if everyone remembers that news links belong
in Announcements & that Fanfic discussions belong in OT-Chatter for
example.  And, uh .... anything where you start out saying, "This is OT
but ...." or "I think this might be mostly OT but ...." -- those types
of messages belong in OT-Chatter.

Thanks!!

Penny




From linman6868 at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 00:06:49 2001
From: linman6868 at aol.com (linman6868 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 00:06:49 -0000
Subject: PoA:  Dementors and Aunt Marge
In-Reply-To: <3AB65BD2.1AAB3BDD@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9966up+iqvl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14685

Amanda wrote:
> 
> But the Muggle/wizard dichotomy that was proposed doesn't bear out,
> because it is with a dig about his father that Snape gets a major 
rise
> out of Harry (also in PoA). I think it's not really a parallel, so 
much
> as clearly a major Button, that Harry will have to learn to control 
his
> response to (or else he'll be fairly easily manipulable by someone
> knowing to "diss" his parents at the right time).

That's a good point.  But I suppose what I was thinking of mostly was 
Harry's attempted response to Aunt Marge--thinking of something happy 
and projecting it forward in his mind to shield him from Aunt Marge's 
verbal abuse.  Marge, however, knows how to push that Button.  Harry 
doesn't have a strong enough mental Patronus for that one.  

As you say, this parallel probably can't be pressed very far, 
certainly not far enough that we can predict Harry's conflict in each 
book by each Dursley episode.  Perhaps it is merely that Harry's 
feelings and conflicts are all of a piece whether he is at Privet 
Drive or Hogwarts, and the Patronus parallel in PoA just gives the 
ongoing conflict a further shadow to cast.  

Lisa




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 00:53:48 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:53:48 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Question for the mod's.
References: <3AB698DE.AE2DD76C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <009a01c0b0d8$39c1ca80$10ccfea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14686

Penny,

Quick query here.

If we ever have questions, can we send the post to one of the moderators
(Neil, yourself, Simon, and ~who-else again?~) to post for us?  That way it
gets to the right spot?

For example,  that FB/QttA post I made yesterday--I was clueless.  Was it
Ot?  Was it Main?  Was it Announcements?  Argh!

I'm just blonde and confused.

Thanks!

Dee



_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From bafoster at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 20 00:58:07 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:58:07 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Intro and What About Snape?
References: <9960ve+gds3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB6AB1F.4DBA8F7B@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14687

First of all, let me introduce myself briefly....some of you may know me
from the Paradigm of Uncertainty list...I've been lurking around here
for a couple of weeks, but I haven't actually posted until now...I have
been reading and enjoying though!

Now on to the fun stuff... :)

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:
> Snapey - how can he be against dark wizards yet do such potentially
> harmful things at the same time?  He was ready to send Sirius to the
> dementors and in GoF he wouldn't let Harry talk to Dumbledore when
> Crouch Sr turned up at Hogwarts and Harry was so clearly panicking
> (which he doesn't do too often).  

Well, I think this is because Snape is firmly convinced that he should
do what *he* thinks is right.  This includes, for example, turning
Sirius in because he honestly believes that Sirius is dangerous and that
he has misled Harry and Co. into trusting him.  Also, in the particular
case of Sirius, you have to remember that Snape has some personal
reasons for disliking him, and I'm *sure* that clouds his perceptions.

Barbara :)

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 20 01:12:19 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:12:19 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Question for the mod's.
References: <3AB698DE.AE2DD76C@swbell.net> <009a01c0b0d8$39c1ca80$10ccfea9@computer>
Message-ID: <3AB6AE73.EB7774D8@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14688

Hi --

In case others are similarly confused, I decided to post my response to
the group rather than to Dee individually.

> If we ever have questions, can we send the post to one of the moderators
> (Neil, yourself, Simon, and ~who-else again?~) to post for us?  That way
> it gets to the right spot?
>

As with any questions or if anyone is ever confused in any way, please
send a message to HPforGrownups-Owner at yahoogroups.com.  This address is
on the Group's homepage.  This message goes to all the moderators, and
your question can be answered by the moderator who happens to be awake,
at his/her computer, etc. at the time.  Please do not send your
questions directly to one of the moderators (well, you *can*, but you
run the risk that the particular moderator will be out-of-town, busy
with a new baby, asleep or otherwise not paying attention).

We would prefer that you ask a question rather than requesting that we
post something on your behalf -- (i.e. "I want to post a link to a funny
HP cartoon.  Which group should I send this to?").  This will be easier
than one of us posting something for one of the members.

It would easily get overwhelming if we were flooded with requests that
messages be posted on behalf of members.

I stress again though that most all your questions about which group
something should be posted to can be answered by looking at the
descriptions of each group located in this Group's files section.  But,
if you look at these descriptions and you are *still* confused or
unsure, then by all means, send a message to
HPforGrownups-Owner at yahoogroups.com.

> For example,  that FB/QttA post I made yesterday--I was clueless.  Was
> it
> Ot?  Was it Main?  Was it Announcements?  Argh!
>
> I'm just blonde and confused.

If I remember correctly, it was a link to an article about the comic
relief books (or an interview with JKR about those books).  If yes, then
that goes to Announcements.  Links to news articles & JKR chats, etc. go
to Announcements (see the Announcements list description over in the
Files area).

Thanks --

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 01:40:52 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 01:40:52 -0000
Subject: Potter as a Social Commentary?
In-Reply-To: <995mpt+dgks@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <996cf4+p2di@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14689

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., steve.shea at t... wrote:
> Has anyone else come to the conclusion that something is going to 
> happen to bring the muggle and wizard worlds together? This has been 
> an underlying thread thru all 4 books. Harry being brought up in the 
> muggle world even though he was one of the most famous wizards of 
the 
> day. Voldemort being Harry's nemisis hates all muggles and 
> mudbloods. Dumbledore and the Weasleys being muggle supporters. The 
> books are almost a social commentary on racism. Then again I've been 
> known for being wrong before. Either way I cant wait for book 5.

I'm not so sure about the wizard and Muggle worlds coming together, 
but I'm definitely aware of the series having a racism theme running 
throughout.  I noticed that early on, when Malfoy was described as 
being quite blond - like a Nazi.  The term "mudblood" also reminds me 
of the various words people have used to insult Jews during the 
Holocaust, as well as how people sometimes refer to African Americans 
as dirty because of skin color.  Then there is the whole house 
elf/slave thing...

I've spoken to people who really don't like JKR getting into the whole 
racism thing, and that she is treading on thin ice there.  I'm not 
sure I agree - I kind of like how she approached the topic of racism 
and injustice.  We all want Dobby and other elves to be free and well 
treated, and we as adults realize the connection between slaves and 
elves, but children may not.  It is a nice introduction for children 
to start to think about how unfairly some people are treated in our 
world.  I'm very curious, though to see where JKR will take the idea - 
the elves we've seen generally do NOT want freedom.  Should they be 
convinced?  Or are they really creatures who, in the magical world, 
relish being owned and serving their masters?

--Je




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 01:52:58 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:52:58 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] St. Mungo
References: <9952b8+nm4t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002101c0b0e0$80b6cb40$3e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14690




I looked up St. Mungo in a terrific online "Lives of the Saints" and
he's real!  He is the patron saint of Glasgow and was also known as
Kentigern.
Other than that possibility, I don't know what he did that makes
him the patron of magical maladies.
Amy Z

Maybe because he founded Glasgow and now there is a great scotch by that
name? *giggle*   Patron St of Hangovers Perhaps that is who Hagrid worships
when he sticks his head in the water barrel.
Doreen




From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 19 21:05:09 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:05:09 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands AGAIN?
Message-ID: <F215rwgAP93s25UE9ch0000478e@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14691

Doreen wrote: <snip>
>Or, the new DADA might give it to him, knowing
somehow that it is his, and also, like Snape, not know what it is.
Therefore, it would seem harmless enough giving it back to Harry. Maybe it 
is in an envelope or drawer marked, "confiscated from Harry Potter."

The only problem with that is the map is "on". When "Moody" got it, it was 
already activated.  Harry didn't tell him how to wipe it.  When BC, Junior 
mentioned it in his confession, he said he'd been watching it - so he 
wouldn't have wiped it anyway.

I'm thinking that even though Dumbledore's fond of Harry, he's not going to 
want him sneaking around (as well as in and out of) Hogwarts with the 
dangers that are sure to be lurking now.  Snape definitely wouldn't want him 
"crossing more lines".  The real Moody (as a friend/admirer of James/Lily 
Potter) might be inclined to give it back, trusting Harry to execute due 
vigilance on behalf of Hogwarts.

I still think, though, that if Harry and Ron determined to make one (not for 
breaking rules, of course, but just for emergencies), Hermione would help 
them.  She's loosening up some on rules; she wouldn't want to be left out; 
and she wouldn't just stand by if they were just as likely to use a spell 
that would transfer themselves into the parchment as the "correct" spell 
(she'd do the research to find out exactly what needed to be done, even if 
she disagreed with them - just to watch over their shoulders and make sure 
they weren't going to get hurt).

ladylprekaun



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 02:05:28 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 20:05:28 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] St. Mungo  complete bio info
References: <9952b8+nm4t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002501c0b0e2$3f535fe0$3e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14692

I  looked up St. Mungo in a terrific online "Lives of the Saints" and
he's real!
Other than that possibility, I don't know what he did that makes
him the patron of magical maladies.

Amy Z

Jocelyn describes Kentigern's extraordinary ability in "the discipline of
letters" (Chapter 4) and then devotes the next three chapters to recounting
Kentigern's power over death (bringing back to life a little bird and a
cook) and the elements (a tree branch miraculously becoming a flaming
torch).

An extensive bio on St. Mungo is found at:
http://www.gypsyfire.com/Thesis.htm#St.%20Kentigern,%20Apostle%20of%20Strath
clyde:%20A





From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 02:23:49 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:23:49 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter as a Social Commentary?
Message-ID: <F3012UAaTzvb5YI9IJs00004ce9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14693

<snip> The term "mudblood" also reminds me
>of the various words people have used to insult Jews during the
>Holocaust, as well as how people sometimes refer to African Americans
>as dirty because of skin color.  Then there is the whole house
>elf/slave thing...
>
>I've spoken to people who really don't like JKR getting into the whole
>racism thing, and that she is treading on thin ice there.  I'm not
>sure I agree - I kind of like how she approached the topic of racism
>and injustice.  We all want Dobby and other elves to be free and well
>treated, and we as adults realize the connection between slaves and
>elves, but children may not.  It is a nice introduction for children
>to start to think about how unfairly some people are treated in our
>world.  I'm very curious, though to see where JKR will take the idea -
>the elves we've seen generally do NOT want freedom.  Should they be
>convinced?  Or are they really creatures who, in the magical world,
>relish being owned and serving their masters?
>
>--Je

>From my knowledge, "good slaves" - who worked well for their masters - 
didn't like the activities of the ones who tried to get free.  I can also 
remember my mother telling me that she went to some of the lunch counter 
sit-ins in the 60's, and her disbelief that her parents told her, "You 
children need to leave those white people alone."  I think it's not that 
they don't WANT freedom, they just don't anticipate it, and don't feel that 
they deserve it (especially in groups).  Individually, I'll bet some of them 
are envying Dobby's new socks - and feeling disgust with Winky for not 
relishing the gift she's been given.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 20 02:38:06 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:38:06 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter as a Social Commentary?
In-Reply-To: <996cf4+p2di@eGroups.com>
References: <995mpt+dgks@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010319183556.02f67100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14694

At 01:40 AM 3/20/01 +0000, meboriqua at aol.com wrote:
>Or are they really creatures who, in the magical world,
>relish being owned and serving their masters?

With freedom comes responsibility.  I can easily imagine
that House Elves just don't want to take on the hard
responsibility that would come with being their own master.



                                                 -- Dave




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 02:31:04 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 20:31:04 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arithmacy
References: <9958m7+pc8s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004201c0b0e5$d5e492a0$3e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14695






> And in PoA, Hermione gives up Trelawney's Divination class so she
can
> concentrate her entire attention on Arithmancy.
>
> Arithmancy sounds, to me at least, like a magickal way to deal with
> math.
>
> Anyone?

I assumed that Arithmancy is simply numerology-- the "-ancy" suffix
does mean magic. I can't remeber where I saw this in PoA, but there
was also mention of her textbooks, or some brief description of her
homework that soudned very distinctly arcane and magical.

The thing that threw me though was that Hermione said "It was my
father's favorite subject." But her parents are both Muggles, right??

Maybe one way of interprettijgn this is that the course does cover
aspects of higher math as well as the magic of numbers.

Thoughts?

Suzanne


>From the Dictionary of Difficult Words:

arithmancy
n. divination by numbers.

I am also interested in the fact that it was Hermione's father's favorite
subject, although, stranger classes are taught in universities.

Doreen





From margdean at erols.com  Tue Mar 20 02:52:32 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:52:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter as a Social Commentary?
References: <996cf4+p2di@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB6C5F0.B6340E25@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14696

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:

> I've spoken to people who really don't like JKR getting into the whole
> racism thing, and that she is treading on thin ice there.  I'm not
> sure I agree - I kind of like how she approached the topic of racism
> and injustice.  We all want Dobby and other elves to be free and well
> treated, and we as adults realize the connection between slaves and
> elves, but children may not.  It is a nice introduction for children
> to start to think about how unfairly some people are treated in our
> world.  I'm very curious, though to see where JKR will take the idea -
> the elves we've seen generally do NOT want freedom.  Should they be
> convinced?  Or are they really creatures who, in the magical world,
> relish being owned and serving their masters?

I think she's handling it beautifully, myself, and hope that she
keeps up with the complexity, which is what makes it so
fascinating.

The main question about the house-elves (in my mind, at least) is
how close their nature is to human nature.  Hermione's reaction
to their enslavement is what most of us would consider "right" --
for humans.  And if they are "human" (or maybe I should say
"beings"!) in their nature, then =their= reaction to =her= (apart
from Dobby) is presumably due to cultural conditioning and only
needs education to be ironed out.  But what if it is as much in
their nature to serve humans as it is for, say, cats to chase
rats?  (Interesting that Ron and Hermione were on the opposite
sides in =that= particular conflict!)

And even if not, do house-elves really =want= to be part of the
"rat race" that =only= values work in terms of the money that can
be obtained for it?


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From margdean at erols.com  Tue Mar 20 02:58:17 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:58:17 -0500
Subject: Wizarding Holidays
References: <9960ve+gds3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB6C749.1CF3A64E@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14697

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:

> Okay, in relation to all the postings about how witches and wizards
> get educated when they are young and if they study Muggle subjects, I
> was wondering why the magical world celebrated holidays like Halloween
> and Christmas.  Does magical history cross with Muggle history, or
> shouldn't they have their own holidays?  Does that mean that all
> witches and wizards are Christian?  Just a thought.

Why should they have to be?  It's not like all the =Muggles= who
celebrate Halloween and Christmas are Christians.  All the
Halloween and Christmas customs we see being followed at Hogwarts
are the secular ones, as far as I recall.

Now that you mention it, though, I think it's rather a pity we
haven't seen any special wizarding holiday celebrations.  That
could be =fun=!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 02:45:32 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 02:45:32 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups]Intro and What About Snape?
In-Reply-To: <3AB6AB1F.4DBA8F7B@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <996g8c+jnk5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14698


I love your Gilda radner quote! Now on to ol' Snapey, who I have a 
soft spot for despite my passion for Sirius:

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Foster Williams <bafoster at m...> 
wrote:

> Well, I think this is because Snape is firmly convinced that he 
should
> do what *he* thinks is right.  This includes, for example, turning
> Sirius in because he honestly believes that Sirius is dangerous and 
that
> he has misled Harry and Co. into trusting him. 

One of the things I like about Rowling is the complexity of some of 
her characters. She's is not completely even in this in my opinion-- I 
have very little interest in Voldemort as a character precisely 
because he is so black-and-white in his evillness, and I desperately 
hope that he will become much more complex. I also wish that the 
malfoys had SOMETHING in them that I could find attractive. It would 
make their nastiness more moving.

What is great about Snape is that his moral conscience is very, very 
complex. He is not a nice person, and fails in really important ways. 
He WAS a deatheater, and I can see his cruelty. And yet.... he is 
capable of putting himself aside for a greater good. In 
Dumbledore's words, at great risk to himself. He transends himself in 
a way that few people ever do. All this, and he is still very, very 
human and you are not obligated to like him. I think that what Rowling 
is showing us brilliantly in Snape is that good and evil are complex-- 
great good can come from the least expected place; and conversely the 
person we expected most to be utterly affable and attractive (I 
am thinking of the young Ludo Bagman here charming his audience 
at his trial) might be the very person who sells out to evil and has 
no moral courage at all.

I don't know Snape's story yet, but like everyone here have all sorts 
of favorite theories. I am watching him, and I care about what he will 
do next, and what he will become. The romantic in me hopes and wishes 
that he will find redemption, perhaps in love, but I have a hunch that 
Rowling will come up with something much more interesting and harder 
than that. I think he may be the one who makes the greatest sacrifice.

--Suzanne




From bafoster at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 20 02:50:12 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:50:12 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter as a Social Commentary?
References: <996cf4+p2di@eGroups.com> <3AB6C5F0.B6340E25@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3AB6C565.87788D82@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14699



Margaret Dean wrote:
> 
> The main question about the house-elves (in my mind, at least) is
> how close their nature is to human nature.  Hermione's reaction
> to their enslavement is what most of us would consider "right" --
> for humans.  And if they are "human" (or maybe I should say
> "beings"!) in their nature, then =their= reaction to =her= (apart
> from Dobby) is presumably due to cultural conditioning and only
> needs education to be ironed out.  But what if it is as much in
> their nature to serve humans as it is for, say, cats to chase
> rats?  (Interesting that Ron and Hermione were on the opposite
> sides in =that= particular conflict!)
> 
> And even if not, do house-elves really =want= to be part of the
> "rat race" that =only= values work in terms of the money that can
> be obtained for it?
> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   <margdean at erols.com>

This kind of reminds me of the passage in _Stranger in a Strange Land_
by Robert Heinlein, where they talk about the grass carpet and how it is
the proper state of the grasses to be walked on.  It's possible that the
house-elves have a similar trait.  The house-elves in the kitchen at
Hogwarts, if you'll recall, react quite violently to the idea that they
might be free, or even paid for their work.  This suggests to me that
this sort of treatment would go against their very nature.

Barbara :)
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 03:20:14 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 03:20:14 -0000
Subject: Wizards studying science - M. Map
In-Reply-To: <995bop+eo1d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <996i9e+fkd0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14700

Naama wrote:

>No, no, no. You use physics to circumvent magic! Remember - Hermione
>said of electronic devices that they were substitutes for magic, not
>the other way around. :)

You and Hermione are right--but I didn't mean that magic replaces 
physics.  I literally meant circumvents--as in, the laws of physics 
(as known by the feebleminded likes of Newton and Einstein anyway) may 
teach us that it's impossible to fly using only a broomstick, but 
magic says "sod off, physics--let me show you how it's done."

But physics is still very interesting (well, theoretically, anyway...I 
was terrible at it!), even if wizards would find it a bit quaint.  
"Okay, okay, all this stuff about electricity exists, but why don't 
you just say 'lumos'" and skip all these complications?"

Re: would Dumbledore return the map to Harry if he got a hold of it?  
I hope JKR is going to follow up on this loose end right away 'cause 
I'm really curious.  I don't think Dumbledore knew of the map's 
existence until Crouch Jr. mentioned it--or it may be that he had 
heard rumors of it but didn't know it really existed.  He might want 
it, *not* to keep it out of Harry's hands or even the hands of someone 
like false-Moody, but to use it himself.

The only problem with this theory is that surely Dumbledore is capable 
of creating such a map...*unless* there's a mysterious story behind 
the creation of the map--which after all is a very powerful object to 
have been created by students, even really good ones--and it isn't 
such a simple matter to make one at all. 

Hmmm...

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------
 "This is the weirdest thing we've ever
 done," Harry said fervently.
       --HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-----------------------------------------




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 03:38:09 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 03:38:09 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Holidays
In-Reply-To: <3AB6C749.1CF3A64E@erols.com>
Message-ID: <996jb1+tcdh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14701

meboriqua at a... wrote:
"Okay, in relation to all the postings about how witches and wizards
get educated when they are young and if they study Muggle subjects, I
was wondering why the magical world celebrated holidays like Halloween
and Christmas.  Does magical history cross with Muggle history, or
shouldn't they have their own holidays?  Does that mean that all
wizards are Christians?"

Margaret wrote:
"Why should they have to be?  It's not like all the =Muggles= who
celebrate Halloween and Christmas are Christians.  All the
Halloween and Christmas customs we see being followed at Hogwarts
are the secular ones, as far as I recall."

--It's true that we only see secular traditions, but they are secular 
traditions of Christian holidays. What I think the original poster 
was saying was that they had to have been influenced by Western 
culture because otherwise they wouldn't celebrate these at all.  Bear 
in mind that the Christian celebration is a "corruption" of the Pagan 
Saturnalia (?). Most Christian festivities were developed around 
Pagan celebrations. So the wizarding had to have been at least 
partially influenced or they'd not follow these traditions.

"Now that you mention it, though, I think it's rather a pity we
haven't seen any special wizarding holiday celebrations.  That
could be =fun=!"

--At least they don't have a "Harry Potter Day" or something like 
that. Poor Harry would feel so embarassed. But maybe there ARE 
Wizarding Holidays, and we've not seen them yet. However I think we 
would have...

Scott

> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   <margdean at e...>




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 04:02:47 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 04:02:47 -0000
Subject: Potter as a Social Commentary?
In-Reply-To: <3AB6C5F0.B6340E25@erols.com>
Message-ID: <996kp7+r4r7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14702

meboriqua at a... wrote:
"I've spoken to people who really don't like JKR getting into the 
whole racism thing, and that she is treading on thin ice there.  I'm 
notsure I agree - I kind of like how she approached the topic of 
racismand in justice.  We all want Dobby and other elves to be free 
and well treated, and we as adults realize the connection between 
slaves andelves, but children may not.  It is a nice introduction for 
childrento start to think about how unfairly some people are treated 
in our world.  I'm very curious, though to see where JKR will take 
the idea -the elves we've seen generally do NOT want freedom.  Should 
they be convinced?  Or are they really creatures who, in the magical 
world,relish being owned and serving their masters?"

--I don't think that she's 'treading on thin ice'. There is a 
positive message about the injustices of prejudice and racism in the 
books. After all we can easily see the faults of Draco's attitude and 
the whole "pureblood" issue (except for when he's wearing leather 
pants in which case some on this list...but I digress).  

Maragret (sp?) wrote:
"I think she's handling it beautifully, myself, and hope that she
keeps up with the complexity, which is what makes it so
fascinating."

--Right! I thought the House Elves sub-plot in GoF was very nice and 
developed Hermione's character beautifully. Recognizing a problem is 
the first step to changing it. Of course it doesn't help that they 
don't want to be helped. 

"The main question about the house-elves (in my mind, at least) is
how close their nature is to human nature.  Hermione's reaction
to their enslavement is what most of us would consider "right" --
for humans.  And if they are "human" (or maybe I should say
"beings"!) in their nature, then =their= reaction to =her= (apart
from Dobby) is presumably due to cultural conditioning and only
needs education to be ironed out."

--I wonder too if it is ignorance or nature talking when they say 
they don't want to be freed. Either way. I can relate to Hermione 
wanting to help them despite. She's got good morals and a good heart, 
and sometimes that can be a blinder. Totally different situation, but 
it struck me recently that material possesions don't matter that much 
when you don't have them and never have. The house-elves don't need 
to get money and glory and all the things humans 'need' because 
they've learned to get along without it. Maybe they're better off... 

Scott




From cryptykgrl at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 04:19:53 2001
From: cryptykgrl at aol.com (cryptykgrl at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 23:19:53 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Potter as a Social Commentary? And some talk about Draco.
Message-ID: <df.11f3c4b0.27e83469@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14703

In a message dated 3/19/01 11:33:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
steve.shea at thornwater.com writes:


> The 
> 

I just joined the list a few days ago, and my mailbox is suddenly much fuller 
than usual, so I hope no one has mentioned this...
When Draco is described, he fits (in my mind, at least) the German idea of 
perfection that was common during World War II (the term is Aryan, I believe) 
- blond, Caucasian, blue-eyed, maybe?...I'm moving soon, and my books are 
packed up, so I can't check it to confirm.  Paired with the mass prejudice 
against Muggles that is prevalent in Slytherin, I think the books most 
definitely go deeper than just a story about a boy with magical powers - of 
course, I wouldn't be here if I thought that.  Anyway, the most powerful 
example of this, I think, is from CoS, when Draco steps forward (everyone is 
stopped in front of the cat, if I remember correctly - I'm so ashamed, I 
can't remember anyone's name at the moment), I believe the book says that 
he's flushed, as if excited, and says something along the lines of, "The 
Chamber has opened.  Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers, you'll be next."  The 
previous quote being extremely paraphrased, of course.  
Also - Lily Potter was Muggle-born, wasn't she?  Or was it James?  Like I 
said before, my memory is kind of nonexistent at the moment.  Therefore, 
according to the less liberal members of the wizarding world, Harry is a 
Mudblood, right?  At least a diluted one?  Yet - Harry is one of the most 
famous (if not the most famous) wizard in their society, along with 
Dumbledore, Voldemort, Lockhart (hehe, just had to add that one), and some 
others.  And Draco's immediate response to meeting Harry was urging him to 
Slytherin-types, wasn't it?  Does Draco realize that upon meeting a 
"Mudblood" he found the idea of having him as a friend appealing?  I'm 
assuming that's what he was thinking at the time - Rich, Influential Father + 
Famous Best Friend = Great Amounts of Power at Hogwarts.
Well, this went from a three or so line response to a rambling, very 
unorganized response.  
Before I send this off, I want to thank you guys for your extremely 
intelligent conversation - it's really hard to find that online.

~Erin~
Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus
A sleeping dragon must never be tickled
Stellae cadunt de caelo
The stars are falling from the sky




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 04:28:14 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:28:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands AGAIN?
References: <9959u0+eelu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008d01c0b0f6$72521800$3e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14704

Has Rowling simply forgotten to mention if Harry gets it back or has
she left it unmentioned for a reason?

We don't know the current location of the map, although I'm sure it
isn't lost for good. I for one would love to see Moody back to teach
his year at Hogwarts (I know, JKR has guaranteed a female DADA
teacher, but she didn't say which year). So maybe he'll find it in
the fake Moody's stuff and Harry will have a lovely little scene as
he tries to explain why he should have it back...

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon

Perhaps, Harry nor JKR have any more need of the Marauders' Map. Harry
needed it the year that he was banned from going to Hogsmeade, and it
certainly played a significant part in GoF, but I am sure that JKR has other
magical items to introduce us to; in which case, the map's whereabouts is
unimportant.

Or, perhaps it is going to fall into the hands of someone who will use it
for some untold mischievous purpose.... maybe Neville or Draco.

While we are on the subject of the map, I wonder why it is punctuated as,
Marauder's Map? Should it not be, Marauders' Map, since there were four
Marauders?

Doreen







From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 04:55:26 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 04:55:26 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Holidays
In-Reply-To: <996jb1+tcdh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <996nru+ci6n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14705

> "Now that you mention it, though, I think it's rather a pity we
> haven't seen any special wizarding holiday celebrations.  That
> could be =fun=!"
> 
> --At least they don't have a "Harry Potter Day" or something like 
> that. Poor Harry would feel so embarassed. But maybe there ARE 
> Wizarding Holidays, and we've not seen them yet. However I think we 
> would have...
> 
> Scott

I think this is because Jo has carefully avoided all mention of 
religion thus far in the books (and I think it will remain that way), 
and major holidays are often religious in origin. It's safer to show 
them celebrating the secular sides of holidays we are already 
familiar with (though I doubt she does anything because it's "safe"). 
With the heat she already takes from right-wing Christian 
fundamentalists, any wizarding holidays that implied a religion other 
than Christianity, and *maybe* Judaism or Islam, would be . . . 
dangerous?

That said, I think it would be great fun as well. Extremists ruin it 
for everyone, don't they?

Stacy




From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 05:38:12 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 05:38:12 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Holidays
In-Reply-To: <996nru+ci6n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <996qc4+movk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14706

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:


> 
> I think this is because Jo has carefully avoided all mention of 
> religion thus far in the books (and I think it will remain that 
way), 
> and major holidays are often religious in origin. It's safer to 
show 
> them celebrating the secular sides of holidays we are already 
> familiar with (though I doubt she does anything because it's 
"safe"). 

Well, plus they are already recognized as holidays by most 
Westerners, with a whole bunch of secular traditions, and plus 
schools really do have actual days off then, so it's realistic. 

> With the heat she already takes from right-wing Christian 
> fundamentalists, any wizarding holidays that implied a religion 
other 
> than Christianity, and *maybe* Judaism or Islam, would be . . . 
> dangerous?
> 
> That said, I think it would be great fun as well. Extremists ruin 
it 
> for everyone, don't they?
> 

Way out for JKR... Although a holiday is a "holy day," we celebrate 
for other reasons too. There are lots of secular holidays (mostly 
civic ones) that no one thinks of attaching a religious significance 
too. For example, President's Day, Arbor Day, Labor Day, Mother's 
Day, bank holidays, etc. Maybe there are special days, but they just 
don't get school off for them. 

Charmian






From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Mar 20 06:41:53 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:41:53 -0800
Subject: Diggorys - WB, PEG! - Harry's Family - Schooling - Muggles
Message-ID: <3AB6FBAE.CBDF7B1B@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14707

Amy Z wrote:
> Amos would understand a lot better if Cedric told him, "Harry was
> attacked by Dementors in the middle of the match," but sharing that
> would really have been unfair to Harry--more so than letting Amos
> think that Harry just fell off his broom.  This isn't humility (it
> makes Harry look like a worse flier than he is, in fact), but it's
> very admirable.

There were a lot of people at that match, even if only Hogwarts students
and staff. Some significant fraction of students would have told their
parents, either in periodic letters (the period might be 'every time I
need to ask for more spending money') or when they came home for
holidays. The parents would tell their friends, as Harry Potter and
Dementors are both subjects worth gossiping about. With that many people
passing on the rumor, I'd be surprised if it wasn't pubbed in THE DAILY
PROPHET.

Peg Kerr wrote:
> I've emerged for the moment from wrestling with the plot of my third
> book (my heroine is being obstreperous; I just can't make her behave
> the way she should)

Welcome back, Peg! I would dearly love to hear more about what writing
is like for real writers (besides the matter of un-co-operative
characters, two questions that have come up lately on various lists are:
do real writers feel surprised by what they see coming out of their pen/
typewriter/ word processor? and why is it so difficult to write sex
scenes?), but the new definition says that has to be on the Off Topic
list, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/messages so please
join it.

Amanda wrote:
> Soooo, who's providing any maternal feeling? Mrs.Weasley?

Professor McGonagall is his House mother -- not that she fits the
stereotype of 'motherly type'. Maybe she doesn't have to -- Hagrid is
emotional enough for ten humans.

Amy Z wrote:
> A child of 6 can easily learn arithmetic (meaning add, subtract,
> multiply, divide).  Ditto with reading and writing-   (snip)
> I just wonder about literature, nonmagical history, science
> (which is  true and interesting even if you can circumvent
> physics with magic!),  etc. . . . don't wizarding kids ever want
> or need to learn them?

Long ago -- I think it may have been in the 1960s -- there were a lot of
articles in the travel section of the newspaper about street children in
Mediterranean countries who had had no formal schooling and many of whom
were illiterate, but they all spoke at least 6 languages and could do
any kind of complicated currency conversions in their heads very fast --
just by hanging around with their ears open, they learned the skills
they needed to make their livings from tourists.

Ginny suggested the name Pigwidgeon for Ron's little owl. Pigwidgeon is
a tremendously appropriate name, meaning: : "A cant word for anything
petty
or small. It is used by Drayton as the name of a fairy." If Ginny found
that name by reading Drayton, she was better read as a teenybopper than
I am at 43!

However, literature is one thing that you definitely don't have to go to
school to learn. Go to the library, or read the books on your parents'
shelves (that's what I did), or join a reading-aloud club (a list member
mentioned her Shakespeare-reading group), or have the parents read aloud
to the kids.

Again, history can be passed on without schooling -- just have the
retired old people babysit the young-uns by telling them all about what
they lived through and what their great-grand-parents had told them
about.

I think Steve van der Ark suggested last month that people who come to
understand the scientific worldview lose the ability to do magic. I
*hope* that isn't true. I agree that science is interesting just for fun
(I read SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN as escapism from working for a living) and
also I keep hoping that some brilliant Muggle-born student (Hermione!
Maybe Cho Chang?) will grow up to famously invent much more powerful
ways of doing magic that come from combining magical theory with
scientific theory.

Naama wrote:
> No, no, no. You use physics to circumvent magic! Remember -
> Hermione said of electronic devices that they were substitutes for
> magic, not the other way around. :)

Hermione was reciting what she had read in textbooks and been told in
Muggle Studies class, but that doesn't mean that it is true. I wrote
about it a week ago, see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/14085 (second topic
down).

Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote:
> I was wondering why the magical world celebrated holidays
> like Halloween and Christmas.  Does magical history cross
> with Muggle history, or shouldn't they have their own holidays?
> Does that mean that all witches and wizards are Christian?

I feel sure that SOME witches and wizards are Christians.

There is a constant flow between magical society and Muggle society.
Wizarding folk often marry Muggles (as Seamus Finnegan's parents) and
lots of wizarding folk were Muggle-born (such as Hermione, and Lily).
The Muggle spouses and Muggle-born, especially if they don't cut all
contact with their old friends and family, would want to keep
celebrating the holidays that were a big deal to their families (in many
cases, Christmas) and thus the Muggle holiday would be introduced to the
wizarding world, and they would want to keep wearing the same type of
clothes they were used to, especially for things like gardening, so the
current crop of kids are wearing jeans and t-shirts, but 100 years ago
the girls were dressed like Alice in Wonderland.  Therefore, for a
wizarding family to be QUITE as ignorant of Muggle life as the Weasleys
is unusual.

--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 07:07:57 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 01:07:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Various bits and pieces ... Sinistra
References: <995h7n+9ae0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005601c0b10c$801bbfc0$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14708

I think Sinistra is professor of astronomy, but I can't remember at
the moment where I saw that.

Michelle

> Okay, this might be a stupid question (even though there are none),
and I would answer the question myself, but someone has borrowed my
copy of GoF, but WHO is professor Sinistra? Now, I know a lot of you
may gasp, and go, "How can he not
> know?", but I've been racking my brain and I can't think of who
s/he might be! It's annoying the h-e-double broomsticks out of me,
and I just need to know. Can anyone help me out here?
>
> Thanx a mill,
> Jamieson

In chapter 12 of GoF, it mentions Professor Sinistra as being the Astronomy
Professor. (it probably does so before this, but I could not find it)

Doreen




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 07:26:06 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 01:26:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Various bits and pieces
References: <995nkt+nput@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007801c0b10f$07e5cb60$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14709

Just FYI: if you have questions like this, a great place to go is the
Harry Potter Lexicon. You can search for "Sinistra" or follow the
prompts from the main page:

Wizarding world => Hogwarts School of witchcraft and wizardry =>
staff members, past and present

The Lexicon was designed to make finding the answers to these kinds
of questions very simple.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon

I went right to the Lexicon when I read Jamie's question, but in the
Sinistra info, it did not tell what books to find Sinistra in, except that
it was under the topic, "Staff Members, Present" ... in which case, I
searched for it in GoF ... and, btw, found it. I wish that more people, when
quoting text would take a second to jot down the book & chapter. I, for one,
like to go read the text in question when I am considering answering a
question or commenting on it.

Doreen, who thinks the Lexicon is the best thing since BBEFB!!





From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 07:50:05 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:50:05 -0000
Subject: which house James was in
In-Reply-To: <995aao+8j7r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99723d+umsj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14710

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> Okay, some time ago someone challenged my placing James Potter in 
> Gryffindor in the Lexicon. I looked around for some kind of proof, 
> but there isn't any in the books. [snip]
> 
> And I found it. Not perfect, not legally binding, but it's enough 
for 
> me to now officially place James in Gryffindor. It's in the second 
> Scholastic interview. JKR is asked the question "What position did 
> James play on the Gryffidor Quidditich team?" She answers that 
James 
> was a Chaser. The fact that she doesn't correct the questioner is 
> telling (she corrects other people who make other assumptions in 
> their questions). Put that on top of the other logical evidence, 
and 
> I think makes it 99.9% certain that James Potter was in fact in 
> Gryffindor.

It also IMHO implies that Sirius Black and Remus Lupin were almost 
certainly in Gryffindor, too, and probably Peter Pettigrew as well.  
(Lupin at some point tells Harry that although he should not take 
sides he is rooting for the Gryffindor Quidditch team, which is also 
evidence that he was a Gryffie.)

This all adds up to further evidence that Hagrids frequently-
discussed statement in PS/SS that all of Voldies supporters were 
Slytherins is most likely inaccurate, since at that time everyone 
believes that Sirius Black is a big Voldie supporter.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 08:05:11 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 02:05:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] was Muggle Studies,  wizard/witch holidays
References: <9960ve+gds3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009e01c0b114$7dc07100$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14711

Meborica said:

Okay, in relation to all the postings about how witches and wizards 
get educated when they are young and if they study Muggle subjects, I 
was wondering why the magical world celebrated holidays like Halloween 
and Christmas.  Does magical history cross with Muggle history, or 
shouldn't they have their own holidays?  Does that mean that all 
witches and wizards are Christian?  Just a thought
<snip>
We cannot take Snape at face value, but must examine him on 
various levels.  There is also no proof that he wanted the DADA 
position, but where did the ever lasting rumor come from?

Doreen said:

I found it odd that they did celebrate Christmas, but not so halloween, since halloween started out as a pagan holiday,  and is not a Christian holiday.
So much of Christmas, any more, sadly to say, has little to do with Christianity, and more to do with greed and commercialism. I like the old-fashioned touches of Mrs. Weasley's hand-knit sweaters and homemade fudge.  Also, Ron's statement that Christmas is for family.

As for Snape, in CoS, chapter five, it says:
"Maybe he's left," said Harry, "because he missed out on the Defense Against the Dark Arts job again!"

I think there is another reference, too.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 08:35:43 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 02:35:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] About Plots and forshadowings, Red Herrings and Whatnot
References: <F239Sv0YKpDS7hx27kB00004987@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b501c0b118$c1cc5860$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14712


>8.)  Does anyone else suspect that Percy Weasley is going to
>unwittingly aid the dark forces through his work with MoM? A man's
>fate is his character, and I think Percy may soon be learning that
>being "correct" is not necessarily the same as being "right". Who will
>he work for next in the ministry? Fudge perhaps?
>
>More later.... Just thought I would take these out for a spin.
>
>
>--Suzanne>

I think we saw that one coming in the way Ron worried about BC senior's
actions - and commented about how Percy would have responded in the same
situation.  I see him turning Ron in, or telling something he's overheard to
Fudge (gaining an audience with the most important person in MoM to boost
his career).  I don't like Fudge.  He was hanging around when Sirius got
"arrested", and wouldn't be Minister if BC, junior hadn't been arrested --
wouldn't surprise me if he was the "arresting officer" so to speak.  Maybe
he even set up the Longbottoms so that he could set a trap for BC, junior?
OK, rambling again.  Maybe more after I've thought through these latest
possible twists.
Thanks for the train, Suzanne.

ladylprekaun
___________________

What is Cornelius Fudge hiding? Why the big hurry to prevent Barty Crouch
Jr. from talking/testifying?
He rushed the Dementor in so quickly, had him do the kiss of death, and
Dumbledore was NOT happy about that at all! I think he is covering something
up that is vile and nasty ...

Is it November yet? Doreen





From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 09:11:10 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 03:11:10 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potter as a Social Commentary?
References: <996cf4+p2di@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ea01c0b11d$b5d0c5a0$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14713

I've spoken to people who really don't like JKR getting into the whole
racism thing, and that she is treading on thin ice there.  I'm not
sure I agree - I kind of like how she approached the topic of racism
and injustice.  We all want Dobby and other elves to be free and well
treated, and we as adults realize the connection between slaves and
elves, but children may not.  It is a nice introduction for children
to start to think about how unfairly some people are treated in our
world.  I'm very curious, though to see where JKR will take the idea -
the elves we've seen generally do NOT want freedom.  Should they be
convinced?  Or are they really creatures who, in the magical world,
relish being owned and serving their masters?

I did not care for the manner of speech that JKR gave to the house-elves. If
this was an effort to make them sound "cute" ... maybe it works for the
school children reading HP ... but it reminded me too much of the demeaning
dialects depicted in stories such as Gone With the Wind and all those slave
books.  For example: "Massuh" or "I'se doan know nuthin'  'bout birthin' no
baby."

As for the elves relishing being owned and serving their masters, this was a
statement widely used by slave owners in their defense for keeping human
beings in bondage. I truly do hope that JKR rectifies this situation in
future books. I was hoping that since she brought it up in GoF so strongly,
that she would solve it there too, rather than giving people over a year to
dwell on it.

Doreen

--Je



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From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 09:50:02 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:50:02 -0000
Subject: Potter as a Social Commentary?
In-Reply-To: <00ea01c0b11d$b5d0c5a0$8914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99794a+a8j5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14714

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> I've spoken to people who really don't like JKR getting into the 
whole
> racism thing, and that she is treading on thin ice there.  I'm not
> sure I agree - I kind of like how she approached the topic of racism
> and injustice.  We all want Dobby and other elves to be free and 
well
> treated, and we as adults realize the connection between slaves and
> elves, but children may not.  It is a nice introduction for children
> to start to think about how unfairly some people are treated in our
> world.  I'm very curious, though to see where JKR will take the 
idea -
> the elves we've seen generally do NOT want freedom.  Should they be
> convinced?  Or are they really creatures who, in the magical world,
> relish being owned and serving their masters?
> 
> I did not care for the manner of speech that JKR gave to the house-
elves. If
> this was an effort to make them sound "cute" ... maybe it works for 
the
> school children reading HP ... but it reminded me too much of the 
demeaning
> dialects depicted in stories such as Gone With the Wind and all 
those slave
> books.  For example: "Massuh" or "I'se doan know nuthin'  'bout 
birthin' no
> baby."
> 
> As for the elves relishing being owned and serving their masters, 
this was a
> statement widely used by slave owners in their defense for keeping 
human
> beings in bondage. I truly do hope that JKR rectifies this 
situation in
> future books. I was hoping that since she brought it up in GoF so 
strongly,
> that she would solve it there too, rather than giving people over a 
year to
> dwell on it.
> 

There is an important difference between human slavery and elvish 
bondage, and it is that elves are *magically bound* to their masters. 
Whether an elf relishes his service or not, he cannot leave his 
master unless his master frees him (by presenting him with clothes). 
OTOH, however much a human slave may feel loyal to his master, there 
is no inherent dominance bond between them. Who is the master of whom 
is a matter of contigent economic, political, cultural circumstances.
That's why, to my mind, the whole elvish issue is not really a racist 
issue. 

Naama





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 11:25:51 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:25:51 -0000
Subject: which house MWPP were in
In-Reply-To: <99723d+umsj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <997env+tf7b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14715

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Steve Vander Ark" <vderark at b...> wrote:
> > Okay, some time ago someone challenged my placing James Potter in 
> > Gryffindor in the Lexicon. I looked around for some kind of proof, 
> > but there isn't any in the books. [snip]
> > 
> > And I found it. Not perfect, not legally binding, but it's enough 
> for 
> > me to now officially place James in Gryffindor. It's in the second 
> > Scholastic interview. JKR is asked the question "What position did 
> > James play on the Gryffidor Quidditich team?" She answers that 
> James 
> > was a Chaser. The fact that she doesn't correct the questioner is 
> > telling (she corrects other people who make other assumptions in 
> > their questions). Put that on top of the other logical evidence, 
> and 
> > I think makes it 99.9% certain that James Potter was in fact in 
> > Gryffindor.

Joywitch wrote:

> It also IMHO implies that Sirius Black and Remus Lupin were almost 
> certainly in Gryffindor, too, and probably Peter Pettigrew as well. 
 
How so?

> (Lupin at some point tells Harry that although he should not take 
> sides he is rooting for the Gryffindor Quidditch team, which is also 
> evidence that he was a Gryffie.)

Well...he doesn't say "I hope Gryffindor wins, but as a teacher I 
shouldn't take sides."  He says something like "Good luck...," or "I 
hope you do well...though as a teacher I shouldn't take sides."  So 
the implication to me is that he's cheering for Harry/being supportive 
of him, not expressing a rooting interest for any house.

I do think they were probably all in Gryffindor--friendships seem 
pretty segregated by House, at least in Harry's day--but I wonder if 
there's a reason JKR doesn't actually tell us their House(s), namely, 
it's going to be important and the answer isn't what we all assume.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------
  "Blimey," said the other twin.  "Are you--?"
  "He *is*," said the first twin.  "Aren't you?" 
 he added to Harry.
  "What?" said Harry.
  "*Harry Potter*," chorused the twins.
  "Oh, him," said Harry.  "I mean, yes, I am."
               --HP and the Philosopher's Stone
-------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 11:51:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:51:01 -0000
Subject: House Elves & Hermione
In-Reply-To: <99794a+a8j5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <997g75+ircu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14716

Naama wrote:

> There is an important difference between human slavery and elvish 
> bondage, and it is that elves are *magically bound* to their 
masters. 
> Whether an elf relishes his service or not, he cannot leave his 
> master unless his master frees him (by presenting him with clothes). 
> OTOH, however much a human slave may feel loyal to his master, there 
> is no inherent dominance bond between them. Who is the master of 
whom 
> is a matter of contigent economic, political, cultural 
circumstances.
> That's why, to my mind, the whole elvish issue is not really a 
racist 
> issue. 


I don't follow you.  Just as humans can use their superior firepower 
to subdue other humans into slavery *or refuse to abuse that power,* 
so wizards can use their power to subdue elves into slavery *or refuse 
to abuse that power.*  Dumbledore refuses, at least when a house-elf 
requests an equal relationship.  Other wizards happily defend the 
status quo.  Who is to say that the dominance of house-elves by 
wizards is the way things *ought* to be--that it's inherent (or even 
if it is inherent, that equality could not be just as valid an 
option)?  

Someone recently wrote (sorry, I have lost track):

>JKR makes it clear that she thinks Hermione's championship of 
liberation is misguided, but DUMBLEDORE is 
>quite willing to treat the house elves respectfully and cheerfully 
pays 
>Dobby. 

I don't think the message is that Hermione is misguided except in her 
overly simplistic approach.  Here are a few other views on 
house-elves, pro and con freedom, that suggest JKR strongly agrees 
with Hermione's intentions, if not her techniques:

-Dumbledore's
-Arthur's (I'm quoting from memory with all quotes, pardon my 
inaccuracy):  "I agree with you, Hermione.  But this isn't the time to 
discuss elf rights."
-Dobby's.  It is so condescending of Hagrid to say that he's a 
"weirdo" because unlike most house-elves, he wants freedom and a 
salary.  It's uncomfortably like people who pointed at "the good 
Negro" and said, "See, *he* isn't complaining--how come *you're* 
making such a stink?"  The ones who demand their rights are the 
weirdos--very convenient.

The defenders of the system don't come out looking too good:

-Ron's extremely feeble party line:  "They LIKE it.  They LIKE being 
enslaved."  This is so obviously untrue that JKR has to be mocking 
this attitude.
-Nick's dehumanizing description:  "That's the mark of a good 
house-elf, isn't it, that you don't know it's there?"  Ah, how 
true--the best servants don't intrude on your consciousness or your 
conscience.  They do all the work but you don't have to acknowledge 
their existence.

Hermione is young, and this is her first foray into the tangled issues 
of social justice.  She is learning that it isn't as simple as riding 
in on a white horse, not least because people participate in their own 
oppression.  Even the most downtrodden fear change (why shouldn't 
they?  many of us feel the devil you know is better than the devil you 
don't), and it's patronizing to tell them that they just don't know 
any better--even if they really don't have as much to fear from 
freedom as they imagine.  I think of workers who shun labor organizers 
because they're sure unions are Communist, or because they're afraid 
of losing what they have, meager though it is.  

But the fact that people defend the system that is unjust to them 
doesn't make it just, or mean others shouldn't change it.  Look at 
anti-feminist women from 100 years ago.  They were so sure that the 
right to vote would take away more than it could possibly give them.  
Were they right?  And even if you would say yes, would you think that 
ALL women should remain in a state of bondage just because some women 
(even most) thought bondage was preferable to freedom?  Thanks very 
much, but I'll take all the burdens of gender equality along with the 
advantages.  No way would I change places with a 19th-century woman.

I would be very annoyed with JKR if she dismissed Hermione's complaint 
simply because it is voiced in a naive and condescending way or 
because the house-elves themselves are nervous about changes in the 
system.  I don't think she does.  She makes it very clear that 
house-elves are oppressed and that their own complicity, while 
understandable and portrayed sympathetically, is not reason to decide 
that elf oppression is a non-problem.

On top of all the social commentary, I think the house-elves are a 
tremendous ally in the struggle against Voldemort, or could be if they 
were allowed/encouraged/coaxed to use their powerful magic for 
something more revolutionary than making terrific pastry.  

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
    "We didn't give it to him because he's a Muggle!"
 said Fred indignantly.
    "No, we gave it to him because he's a great bullying
 git," said George.  "Isn't he, Harry?"
    "Yeah, he is, Mr. Weasley," said Harry earnestly.
                 --Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
----------------------------------------------------------
    




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 11:58:26 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:58:26 -0000
Subject: Foreshadowings - Gender balance - Snape
Message-ID: <997gl2+g00q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14717

Suzanne wrote:

>I imagine a moment, a crucial moment,
>when some dark malevolent being snatches up a wand so as to perform
>the "Avada Kedavra".... Only to have it turn into a rubber chicken.

Yes!  It's hard to imagine how this could play out without turning 
into farce, but I also think those fake wands are important.

If not, Lord Randemort should put a scene like the above into his 
spoof.  (that's a fanfic ref...see "Hairy Potter" at fanfiction.net)

>4.)  Back to that forest-- there is a Ford Anglia in there somewhere,
>and it has a mind of its own. It MUST return!! It has too! And
>whatever happened to Sirius's flying motorcycle? It has to be
>somewhere, right?

Wow, a new ship:  FFA/FM!  They were made for each other...  And this 
is one ship where we can actually ask the character whether it's true 
or not.  Fess up, Neil--have you been carrying on with Sirius's bike?

Suzanne, I love your list of foreshadowings!  JKR has sure given 
herself plenty to work with--wonder which ones will be picked up?

Jen said:

>I think sinistra is male, actually - jk rowling has stated that the
>gender allotment among Hogwarts professors is fifty-fifty, and they
>are ten, not counting those in mugglestudies and ancient rune that we
>know nothing about, and dumbledore, as being the headmaster.

Mmm...but I do count Dumbledore.  He's not a teacher, but he's 
Headmaster, for heaven's sake; he also gets a lot of ink, is beloved 
and highly respected by Harry and the readers, and is the most 
powerful figure in the books.  

Also, every DADA teacher (so far) has been male.

I sympathize with JKR, who bristled a little at the suggestion that 
she doesn't have enough women/girls, because, as she said, there are 
other characters to come, but for her to say the staff is 50/50 is a 
bit beside the point.  Look at the most important characters, amongst 
students, staff, and elsewhere; they are almost all male.  Going by 
pure screen time, Hogwarts is a man's world.  Trelawney helped right 
the balance, as did Rita, but please--these are our female role 
models?  (Maybe Trelawney will be redeemed when we learn about the 1st 
True Prophecy.)

Doreen wrote:

>As for Snape, in CoS, chapter five, it says:
>"Maybe he's left," said Harry, "because he missed out on the Defense 
Against
>the Dark Arts job again!"

>I think there is another reference, too

When Harry first asks Percy who Snape is, at the opening feast in 
PS/SS.  Percy says no wonder Quirrell's nervous--Snape wants his job. 
 But this, like all the evidence we have of Snape's DADA desires, is a 
student rumor.  When I was a kid, we always had lots of these rumors 
about teachers, esp. the ones no one liked:  who was sleeping with 
whom, who'd had a nervous breakdown, who had been left at the altar 
like Miss Havisham and never recovered.  These rumors probably had 
zero basis in fact and were 20 years old--they just got passed down 
from one student generation to another.

>Is it November yet? 

We have longer to wait than that to hear more about Fudge . . . the 
book won't be out 'til 2002 sometime.  *Sigh*  Breathe slowly, this 
air has to last a long time...

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------------
 "And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."
 "Aaah, I was going to have a fight.  Okay, I'll lose a bet."
 "Yeah, you'll be betting I'll win my fight. . . ."
                               --HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------------------------




From mssabano at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 13:01:46 2001
From: mssabano at yahoo.com (mssabano at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:01:46 -0000
Subject: Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands AGAIN?
In-Reply-To: <004101c0b0b5$3ff40620$8614a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <997kbq+muks@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14718

> No, it doesn't say he gets it back, but that is such a simple thing 
to
> correct. Dumbledore, or Hagrid, or even Snape might give it to him 
at the
> beginning of the next term. Or, the new DADA might give it to him, 
knowing
> somehow that it is his, and also, like Snape, not know what it is.
> Therefore, it would seem harmless enough giving it back to Harry. 
Maybe it
> is in an envelope or drawer marked, "confiscated from Harry Potter."
> 
> Doreen

I don't think that the ink on the map vanishes automatically, as 
Harry would have told Moody how to use it. Harry just gave Moody the 
map. I think you have to say some spell for the ink to disappear 
(Correct me if I'm wrong), and I think if Snape got hold of it he 
will be able to read it as the fake Moody wouldn't have bothered to 
make the ink invisible.

Mike




From mssabano at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 13:13:46 2001
From: mssabano at yahoo.com (mssabano at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:13:46 -0000
Subject: Philosopher^Sorcerer ??..hmm
Message-ID: <997l2a+gds6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14719

Why do you think SCHOLASTIC changed the original tile of "Harry 
Potter & the Philosopher's Stone" to "Harry Potter & the Sorcerer's 
Stone"? It definitely wasn't J.K. who did so. Did they think that it 
was more interesting or that us Americans weren't as smart as the 
British and didn't know what a Philosopher was!!

Mike




From editor at texas.net  Tue Mar 20 13:13:22 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:13:22 -0600
Subject: Racism vs. Prejudice (was Potter as a Social Commentary?)
References: <996cf4+p2di@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB75772.77945FD8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14720

meboriqua at aol.com wrote:

> I'm not so sure about the wizard and Muggle worlds coming together,
> but I'm definitely aware of the series having a racism theme running
> throughout.  I noticed that early on, when Malfoy was described as
> being quite blond - like a Nazi.  The term "mudblood" also reminds me
> of the various words people have used to insult Jews during the
> Holocaust, as well as how people sometimes refer to African Americans
> as dirty because of skin color.  Then there is the whole house
> elf/slave thing...

I'm not certain whether JKR is dealing with racism, or more broadly,
with prejudice and preconceptions. [Although, considering she's dealing
with prejudice against other races, here is one very rare instance when
the term "racism" would actually be correct.] I always considered the
theme to be simply the ills of unthinking prejudice, with all its
manyfold connotations.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mssabano at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 13:26:40 2001
From: mssabano at yahoo.com (mssabano at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:26:40 -0000
Subject: J.K. Rowling: FALSE ACCUSATIONS
In-Reply-To: <3AB75772.77945FD8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <997lqg+p6ol@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14721

WOULD YOU PEOPLE BACK OFF. FIRST YOUR'RE ACCUSING J.K. ROWLING 
OF 'STEALING' THE WHOLE IDEA FROM STOUFFER (OR WHATEVER HER NAME IS) 
AND NOW YOU'RE SAYING SHE'S BEING RACIST BY RELATING MUDBLOODS TO 
JEWS AND DIRTY TO AFRICAN AMERICANS. SHE'S JUST WRITING A 
BOOK,FORHEAVEN'SSAKE, SO STOP IT WILL YOU. PLEASE.

MIKE

> meboriqua at a... wrote:
> 
> > I'm not so sure about the wizard and Muggle worlds coming 
together,
> > but I'm definitely aware of the series having a racism theme 
running
> > throughout.  I noticed that early on, when Malfoy was described as
> > being quite blond - like a Nazi.  The term "mudblood" also 
reminds me
> > of the various words people have used to insult Jews during the
> > Holocaust, as well as how people sometimes refer to African 
Americans
> > as dirty because of skin color.  Then there is the whole house
> > elf/slave thing...




From editor at texas.net  Tue Mar 20 13:38:26 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:38:26 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: which house MWPP were in
References: <997env+tf7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB75D51.731541D1@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14722

Amy Z wrote:

> Well...he doesn't say "I hope Gryffindor wins, but as a teacher I
> shouldn't take sides."  He says something like "Good luck...," or "I
> hope you do well...though as a teacher I shouldn't take sides."

Here ya go. Page 246, US:

"Well --- let's drink to a Gryffindor victory against Ravenclaw! Not
that I'm supposed to take sides, as a teacher....," he added hastily.

I interpreted this mostly as supporting Harry's side, but there could be
an old allegiance to Gryffindor operating, too.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 13:43:56 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:43:56 -0000
Subject: J.K. Rowling: FALSE ACCUSATIONS
In-Reply-To: <997lqg+p6ol@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <997mqs+fvjd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14723

Whoa dude! Nobody here is saying that Rowling (a former researcher for 
Amnesty International focusing of Francophone Africa) is racist!

I think what people are saying is that she is making social commentary 
about the problem of racism. We surmise that the problems the 
wizarding community is facing reflect our own deep-seated problems 
with prejudice and racism, and that she wants to address these issues.

It is REALLY clear that she abhors such things. At least to me.

I am very sorry to see anyone upset....

Suzanne




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., mssabano at y... wrote:
> WOULD YOU PEOPLE BACK OFF. FIRST YOUR'RE ACCUSING J.K. ROWLING 
> OF 'STEALING' THE WHOLE IDEA FROM STOUFFER (OR WHATEVER HER NAME IS) 
> AND NOW YOU'RE SAYING SHE'S BEING RACIST BY RELATING MUDBLOODS TO 
> JEWS AND DIRTY TO AFRICAN AMERICANS. SHE'S JUST WRITING A 
> BOOK,FORHEAVEN'SSAKE, SO STOP IT WILL YOU. PLEASE.
> 
> MIKE
> 
> > meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > 
> > > I'm not so sure about the wizard and Muggle worlds coming 
> together,
> > > but I'm definitely aware of the series having a racism theme 
> running
> > > throughout.  I noticed that early on, when Malfoy was described 
as
> > > being quite blond - like a Nazi.  The term "mudblood" also 
> reminds me
> > > of the various words people have used to insult Jews during the
> > > Holocaust, as well as how people sometimes refer to African 
> Americans
> > > as dirty because of skin color.  Then there is the whole house
> > > elf/slave thing...




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 13:51:35 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:51:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Philosopher^Sorcerer ??..hmm
References: <997l2a+gds6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002301c0b144$e31d13c0$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14724


----- Original Message -----
From: <mssabano at yahoo.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 7:13 AM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Philosopher^Sorcerer ??..hmm


Why do you think SCHOLASTIC changed the original tile of "Harry
Potter & the Philosopher's Stone" to "Harry Potter & the Sorcerer's
Stone"? It definitely wasn't J.K. who did so. Did they think that it
was more interesting or that us Americans weren't as smart as the
British and didn't know what a Philosopher was!!

Mike

What kind of manuscript changes had to be made to make the U.S. version more
understandable to American readers? Specific things, like the title change
of the first Harry Potter book?
Very few changes have been made in the manuscript. Arthur Levine, my
American editor, and I decided that words should be altered only where we
felt they would be incomprehensible, even in context, to an American reader.
I have had some criticism from other British writers about allowing any
changes at all, but I feel the natural extension of that argument is to go
and tell French and Danish children that we will not be translating Harry
Potter, so they'd better go and learn English.
The title change was Arthur's idea initially, because he felt that the
British title gave a misleading idea of the subject matter. We discussed
several alternative titles and 'Sorcerer's Stone' was my idea.

Doreen
(Yes, Steve, it is nice to have that at your fingertips)




From editor at texas.net  Tue Mar 20 13:54:54 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:54:54 -0600
Subject: Do calm down (was FALSE ACCUSATIONS)
References: <997lqg+p6ol@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB7612E.F8222432@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14725

mssabano at yahoo.com wrote:

> WOULD YOU PEOPLE BACK OFF. FIRST YOUR'RE ACCUSING J.K. ROWLING OF
> 'STEALING' THE WHOLE IDEA FROM STOUFFER (OR WHATEVER HER NAME IS) AND
> NOW YOU'RE SAYING SHE'S BEING RACIST BY RELATING MUDBLOODS TO JEWS AND
> DIRTY TO AFRICAN AMERICANS. SHE'S JUST WRITING A BOOK,FORHEAVEN'SSAKE,
> SO STOP IT WILL YOU. PLEASE.

Calmness, please. All caps, by the way, is generally interpreted as
'shouting,' and is considered rude.

I don't know how long you've been reading postings from the list, but so
far I can only think of one person out of our current 1074 (or
thereabouts) who thinks there's any credence at all to the Stouffer
claims. The overwhelming majority here think Stouffer saw a grand
opportunity to make a buck riding on someone else's coattails, and the
whole suit is pretty farfetched.

The current racism discussion has in no way called JKR a racist. It is
exploring how she examines the *theme* of racism or prejudice in how her
characters interact. And so far, her work has decried those who are
unthinkingly prejudiced. Many of the postings have been praising how she
handles it, or have been looking at the quandary of the moral dilemma of
forcing what's "best" for someone on them, in the face of their own
stated position. The WorldWarII parallels are many and have been
revisited many times--they reach into many more thematic areas than the
"prejudice" one.

[This sort of emotional reaction, by the way, is one reason I tend to
refer to the theme as "prejudice" rather than "racism," because the
latter is such an emotional button, at least in American society.]

Anyway, no, we won't stop it, because we are engaging in literary
analysis and thoughtful exposition. All the posts on the subjects you
mention have been clearly written and would be, in my opinion, extremely
difficult to interpret incorrectly--I can only assume you're only
scanning them, or perhaps only reading the subject lines. Please do your
research a bit better before you sound off.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 13:58:35 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:58:35 -0000
Subject: House Elves & Hermione
In-Reply-To: <997g75+ircu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <997nmb+l51v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14726

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Naama wrote:
> 
> > There is an important difference between human slavery and elvish 
> > bondage, and it is that elves are *magically bound* to their 
> masters. 
> > Whether an elf relishes his service or not, he cannot leave his 
> > master unless his master frees him (by presenting him with 
clothes). 
> > OTOH, however much a human slave may feel loyal to his master, 
there 
> > is no inherent dominance bond between them. Who is the master of 
> whom 
> > is a matter of contigent economic, political, cultural 
> circumstances.
> > That's why, to my mind, the whole elvish issue is not really a 
> racist 
> > issue. 
> 
> 
> I don't follow you.  Just as humans can use their superior 
firepower 
> to subdue other humans into slavery *or refuse to abuse that 
power,* 
> so wizards can use their power to subdue elves into slavery *or 
refuse 
> to abuse that power.*  Dumbledore refuses, at least when a house-
elf 
> requests an equal relationship.  Other wizards happily defend the 
> status quo.  Who is to say that the dominance of house-elves by 
> wizards is the way things *ought* to be--that it's inherent (or 
even 
> if it is inherent, that equality could not be just as valid an 
> option)?  
> 

Well, I'm not saying that elves should be mistreated or that their 
attachment should be abused. They should have their rights. All I am 
saying is that elf-master is not the same relationship as human slave-
master. It's true that "inherent" arguments were made about 
human "races" with obvious political purposes, but we're talking 
about an imaginary world and an imaginary species. It seems to me 
that, according to the books, house elves do have an innate tendency 
to serve human beings (after all, they are HOUSE elves, and houses 
are human habitats). Since humans do not have a similar tendency to 
serve elves, I don't see how a relationship of equality can exist. 
One is INHERENTLY the servant, the other is INHERENTLY the master. 
The equality of human beings rests precisely on the premise that 
there are no such INHERENT tendencies (no race or group are "born" 
servile, for instance).

> I don't think the message is that Hermione is misguided except in 
her 
> overly simplistic approach.  Here are a few other views on 
> house-elves, pro and con freedom, that suggest JKR strongly agrees 
> with Hermione's intentions, if not her techniques:
> 
> -Dumbledore's
> -Arthur's (I'm quoting from memory with all quotes, pardon my 
> inaccuracy):  "I agree with you, Hermione.  But this isn't the time 
> to discuss elf rights."
> -Dobby's.  It is so condescending of Hagrid to say that he's a 
> "weirdo" because unlike most house-elves, he wants freedom and a 
> salary.  It's uncomfortably like people who pointed at "the good 
> Negro" and said, "See, *he* isn't complaining--how come *you're* 
> making such a stink?"  The ones who demand their rights are the 
> weirdos--very convenient.
> 
> The defenders of the system don't come out looking too good:
> 
> -Ron's extremely feeble party line:  "They LIKE it.  They LIKE 
being 
> enslaved."  This is so obviously untrue that JKR has to be mocking 
> this attitude.

I'm not at all sure about this. George also says it. Hagrid said 
that "it'd be doing them an unkindness." More importantly still, the 
elves in the kitchen do behave in that way. They are very clearly 
horrified at Hermione's suggestions and talk of rights. So, although 
you might say "cultural conditioning", Ron's comment is more or less 
true, as far as the reality he knows goes. 

> -Nick's dehumanizing description:  "That's the mark of a good 
> house-elf, isn't it, that you don't know it's there?"  Ah, how 
> true--the best servants don't intrude on your consciousness or your 
> conscience.  They do all the work but you don't have to acknowledge 
> their existence.
> 
Well, but house elves are not human. That attitude is demeaning (and 
therefore dehumanizing) when dealing with humans. Is it dehumanizing 
to say that the mark of a good dog is it's obedience (I'm NOT 
equating elves and dogs!)? 
In our world there just don't happen to be such creatures as house 
elves (intelligent non-humans that are inherently attached to 
humans). Therefore, we have never had to deal with the moral problems 
arising from a relationship with them (the moral problem for us was 
to stop thinking in such a way of other human beings.) I think that 
these moral problems are different from the moral problems arising 
from human-human realtionship, and so I don't think that the racist 
(or male-chauvinist) similes are appropriate here.

I think also that the "mudblood"/"pureblood" ideology is hateful and 
intense enough to fill the racism slot in the story.

Naama, who promises that she would treat her house elf with great 
respect, pay it a salary, and even allow it to call her a barmy old 
codger.. : )




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Mar 20 14:22:10 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:22:10 -0000
Subject: SPOILER: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil - Canon Evidence 
Message-ID: <997p2i+i5bp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14727

K
N
E
A
Z
L
E
S
-
N
O
W
A
N
D
F
O
R
E
V
E
R

Last week, after reading FB&WTFT, I was reviewing books 3 and 4 to 
write my most recent chapter of Surfeit of Curses 
(http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/index.fic?action=story-
read&storyid=96654) and something caught my eye.
Crookshanks reaction, or rather, is lack thereof, when Draco and his 
cronies come into the train compartment.
As you all know, Crookshanks attacks Scabbers (aka Peter pettigrew 
aka Wormtail) and when Hermione gets him to calm down, doesn't take 
his eyes off him.
However, when Draco comes in, Crookshanks does nothing negative - it 
would take only one line by JKR, something like "...and Crookshanks 
woke up from his snooze and glowered at Malfoy..." or "...they didn't 
even realize he was there until they heard Crookshanks hiss..." Lines 
like that, on a reading of the books pre-FB&WTFT could have been 
assumed as a regular catty reaction - but after reading about 
Kneazles in FB&WTFT, it would've been clear to ALL of us that JKR was 
saying that Draco was an "unsavoury or suspicious character". 
But she didn't. 
Now, she MAY be saying that Crookshanks has no reason to deem Draco 
a "suspicious" character because they already know that he's an evil 
git.
But if that was so, he'd still be unsavoury (ok, readers of Draco 
Sinister, stop thinking that!!!!)

Any comments? 




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 14:27:29 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:27:29 -0000
Subject: House Elves & Hermione
In-Reply-To: <997nmb+l51v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <997pch+lofl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14728

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:


It's true that "inherent" arguments were made about 
> human "races" with obvious political purposes, but we're talking 
> about an imaginary world and an imaginary species. It seems to me 
> that, according to the books, house elves do have an innate tendency 
> to serve human beings (after all, they are HOUSE elves, and houses 
> are human habitats). Since humans do not have a similar tendency to 
> serve elves, I don't see how a relationship of equality can exist...


Although I do believe that JKR is making social commentary here, here 
is a little bit of folkloric background:

The House Elves are based upon the Brownie, a creature that exists in 
folklore. Brownies live in a house and will do all of the work humans 
need to have done, but they wear very dirty and tattered rags and will 
vanish the moment you offer them clothing. In every story I have read 
about Brownies, they are magically bound to do all of the work (and do 
it quickly and easily and are rather boisterous about it) and the 
grateful housewife thinks "Wouldn't it be nice to at least make new 
suits for them to show my thanks!" The Brownies then snatch up the new 
clothing, make some triumphant (or rude) cry and run off into the 
night. Rowling said in a  recent interview that she thought it would 
be an interesting twist if the house elves considered being given 
clothing to be a kind of disgrace.

I think it is great that JKR can take a traditional story and give it 
a nice social twist. She has done a great job of extending these 
creatures and thinking "Hmmm... So how would some humans react to 
having a house elf and how would the house elves feel about it?"

--Suzanne





From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 14:34:47 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:34:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Do calm down (was FALSE ACCUSATIONS)
References: <997lqg+p6ol@eGroups.com> <3AB7612E.F8222432@texas.net>
Message-ID: <003d01c0b14a$ec389000$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14729

Well said Amanda & Rainy..

I don't know about anyone else, but JKR's writings have become the center of
my leisure time. Normally, when I finish a good book, I am disappointed that
it has ended. I can always re-read it, and often do, but there is usually
nothing like the first read. JKR's books are truly an exception to this for
me. As I read her books the second time, knowing what all the "clues" mean,
I find myself saying, "How could I have missed that the first time through?"
or "Now, that makes perfect sense."

When I first joined this group, on a tip from Steve Vander Ark, I had no
idea what to expect. Imagine my joy at discovering hundreds of people who
all loved HP as much, if not more than I do. People who won't look around
for something to do if I mention HP. People who don't think I have gone over
the top because I bought a Hagrid doll and BBEFB at age 54.

Countless times I have read a post thinking, "WOW! That is exactly the way I
feel about that!"  The best thing is that if I feel exactly opposite of what
the post said, I can also state my opinion.... and neither of us has to
worry about anyone putting us down for our views or opinions. With 1105
members, there is bound to be a pro and a con to every issue. (the only
exception being the Stouffer issue ... in this case, it is 100% unanimous. I
do not count the person who sneaked in here under the guise of being a
Pottermaniac, only to be a Stouffer follower)

Yes, I do have a problem with the house-elf issue. That has nothing to do
with my feelings about JKR. I think the woman is a extremely gifted and
extraordinarily imaginative and talented.

"Just a book"? Never! That is the epitome of understatements.

Doreen




From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Mar 20 14:34:00 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:34:00 -0000
Subject: SPOILER: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil - Canon Evidence
In-Reply-To: <997p2i+i5bp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <997poo+ufic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14730

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> K
> N
> E
> A
> Z
> L
> E
> S
> -
> N
> O
> W
> A
> N
> D
> F
> O
> R
> E
> V
> E
> R
> 
> As you all know, Crookshanks attacks Scabbers (aka Peter pettigrew 
> aka Wormtail) and when Hermione gets him to calm down, doesn't take 
> his eyes off him. However, when Draco comes in, Crookshanks does 
nothing negative - it would take only one line by JKR, something 
like "...and Crookshanks woke up from his snooze and glowered at 
Malfoy..." or "...they didn't even realize he was there until they 
heard Crookshanks hiss..." Lines like that, on a reading of the books 
pre-FB&WTFT could have been assumed as a regular catty reaction - but 
after reading about Kneazles in FB&WTFT, it would've been clear to 
ALL of us that JKR was saying that Draco was an "unsavoury or 
suspicious character". But she didn't.  Now, she MAY be saying that 
Crookshanks has no reason to deem Draco a "suspicious" character 
because they already know that he's an evil  git. But if that was so, 
he'd still be unsavoury (ok, readers of Draco  Sinister, stop 
thinking that!!!!)
> 
> Any comments?

Ooo, Heidi, nice notice! Of course, JK may not have thought to have 
Crookshanks react (she plans these beautifully, but it is possible to 
miss some things), but I think you have a great point (and if she did 
plan that - what a great clue!). Personally, I think Draco is a 
miserable little git, but I've never thought he was Evil, and I 
believe it's a definite possiblity he'll end up on the good side - we 
just don't have enough information on him yet. 

B (who thinks canon Draco is a little monster, but who loves both 
Cassie's and Angie's Draco)





From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 20 14:39:55 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:39:55 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] J.K. Rowling: FALSE ACCUSATIONS
References: <997lqg+p6ol@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB76BBB.6A91BF6A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14731

Hi everyone --

I have responded to the poster below in an off-list post.  Let's refrain
from engaging in an argument at this point, okay?

Thanks --

Penny

mssabano at yahoo.com wrote:

> WOULD YOU PEOPLE BACK OFF. FIRST YOUR'RE ACCUSING J.K. ROWLING
> OF 'STEALING' THE WHOLE IDEA FROM STOUFFER (OR WHATEVER HER NAME IS)
> AND NOW YOU'RE SAYING SHE'S BEING RACIST BY RELATING MUDBLOODS TO
> JEWS AND DIRTY TO AFRICAN AMERICANS. SHE'S JUST WRITING A
> BOOK,FORHEAVEN'SSAKE, SO STOP IT WILL YOU. PLEASE.
>
> MIKE
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Tue Mar 20 14:42:37 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:42:37 -0000
Subject: Mrs Figg
Message-ID: <997q8t+ah0r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14733

 
 Just this thought - Rowling has said there is a female DADA-teacher to come. What about mrs Figg? She, as a guardian (if that is the case) of the most famous wizardchild in the world, ought to be fit for that job.

/Jennifer




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 14:52:19 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:52:19 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILER: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil - Canon Evidence 
References: <997p2i+i5bp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c0b14d$5d964060$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14734

 SPOILER: Why Draco Malfoy IS Evil - Canon Evidence


K
N
E
A
Z
L
E
S
-
N
O
W
A
N
D
F
O
R
E
V
E
R

Last week, after reading FB&WTFT, I was reviewing books 3 and 4 to
write my most recent chapter of Surfeit of Curses
(http://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic/index.fic?action=story-
read&storyid=96654) and something caught my eye.
Crookshanks reaction, or rather, is lack thereof, when Draco and his
cronies come into the train compartment.
As you all know, Crookshanks attacks Scabbers (aka Peter pettigrew
aka Wormtail) and when Hermione gets him to calm down, doesn't take
his eyes off him.
However, when Draco comes in, Crookshanks does nothing negative - it
would take only one line by JKR, something like "...and Crookshanks
woke up from his snooze and glowered at Malfoy..." or "...they didn't
even realize he was there until they heard Crookshanks hiss..." Lines
like that, on a reading of the books pre-FB&WTFT could have been
assumed as a regular catty reaction - but after reading about
Kneazles in FB&WTFT, it would've been clear to ALL of us that JKR was
saying that Draco was an "unsavoury or suspicious character".
But she didn't.
Now, she MAY be saying that Crookshanks has no reason to deem Draco
a "suspicious" character because they already know that he's an evil
git.
But if that was so, he'd still be unsavoury (ok, readers of Draco
Sinister, stop thinking that!!!!)

Any comments?

Doreen a comment :)
I think that Crookshanks is an unregistered Animagi and originated from the
same time as James Potter. I just think that he does not know how evil Draco
is yet. By the same token, I think that if Crookshanks were around Lucious,
she would pitch a hissy fit!





From recla at magick.net  Tue Mar 20 15:04:36 2001
From: recla at magick.net (Dennis Recla)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 07:04:36 -0800
Subject: Stouffer to be on ABC News
In-Reply-To: <997q8t+ah0r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBLMIEAKMHNMICJHAHIEIDDDAA.recla@magick.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14735


 Ms. Stouffer is to be on ABC Morning News giving her side of the Larry
Potter Story.

dr




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Tue Mar 20 15:08:22 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:08:22 -0000
Subject: Stouffer to be on ABC News
In-Reply-To: <NBBBLMIEAKMHNMICJHAHIEIDDDAA.recla@magick.net>
Message-ID: <997rp6+n1dj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14736

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Dennis Recla" <recla at m...> wrote:
> 
>  Ms. Stouffer is to be on ABC Morning News giving her side of the Larry
> Potter Story.
> 
> dr

I would like ms Rowling to give her side....or has she already?
 I missed it in that case.

/Jennifer




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Mar 20 15:56:24 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:56:24 -0000
Subject: Muggle and Magical Worlds (Re: Wizarding Holidays)
In-Reply-To: <3AB6C749.1CF3A64E@erols.com>
Message-ID: <997uj8+ok7c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14737

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> meboriqua at a... wrote:
> 
> > Okay, in relation to all the postings about how witches and 
wizards
> > get educated when they are young and if they study Muggle 
subjects, I
> > was wondering why the magical world celebrated holidays like 
Halloween
> > and Christmas.  Does magical history cross with Muggle history, or
> > shouldn't they have their own holidays?  Does that mean that all
> > witches and wizards are Christian?  Just a thought.
> 
> Why should they have to be?  It's not like all the =Muggles= who
> celebrate Halloween and Christmas are Christians.  All the
> Halloween and Christmas customs we see being followed at Hogwarts
> are the secular ones, as far as I recall.
> 
> Now that you mention it, though, I think it's rather a pity we
> haven't seen any special wizarding holiday celebrations.  That
> could be =fun=!

They also have Easter holidays at Hogwarts: in GoF, Mrs. Weasley 
sends Easter sweets to them all including Hermione who gets a rather 
small treat in comparison to the rest. Easter Holidays is probably a 
4 day-weekend affair in which students don't generally go home 
(Afterall, it takes a day on the Hogwarts Express to get to King's 
Crossing and another day to get back to Hogwarts, leaving only 2 days 
to do whatever.)

I don't think the Muggle and Magical societies are completely 
separate. I tend to view them as coexisting together, hence their 
many shared cultural nuances: both societies acknowledge their 
geographical location (UK), both societies shares similar foods, etc. 

The Muggle-Magical societies mirror the Amish-"English" societies 
found parts of the US. The Amish co-exist with the "English" (the 
Amish terminology for non-Amish). The Amish keep traditions that may 
seem out-dated to their "English" neighbors, such as using horse-and-
buggies transportation rather than cars, the non-use of electricity 
in their homes, even the schooling of Amish children is separate from 
those of their non-Amish neighbors. Furthermore, like the Magical 
world in Harry Potter, many Amish children do not go to universities 
after completing their Amish schooling. 

However, the Amish and "English" DO interact with each other. 
Gringotts changes Muggle currency for wizarding currency, which leads 
me to suspect that some wizards and witches have a Muggle income. I 
suspect the Wizards and Witches seen by Vernon Dursley walking the 
streets of Little Whinging the day after Voldemort's defeat interact 
with Muggles. Mrs. Figg (if she is indeed Arabella Figg) most likely 
interacts with her Muggle neighbors and has something more than a 
rudimentary knowledge of Muggle society and current events.

The Weasley's and their lack of Muggle daily living skills is a bit 
of a puzzle, but could be explained in that the Burrow is a secluded 
farm, so there isn't any need for the Weasleys to interact with their 
Muggle neighbors. But that too, mirrors societies that coexist: if 
there is no purpose or need to interact with these coexistent 
societies, for some, there is no need to be aware of them. Stan on 
the Knight Bus said that Muggles aren't aware of the Bus because they 
don't notice things, I think the same can be applied to the Wizarding 
community regarding the Muggle community.

:-) Milz 






From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 15:59:58 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:59:58 -0600
Subject: Harry's Protective Barriers
Message-ID: <00bb01c0b156$d25714c0$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14738

In Chapter 36 of GoF:

"He said my blood would make him stronger than the protection my -- my  mother left in me -- he'd have it too. And he was right -- he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face."

For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him.

"Very well," he said, sitting down again. "Voldemort has overcome that particular barrier. Harry please continue."
_______________________________________________________________________________

Do we know of any "other barriers,"? Who, besides Lily, has placed "barriers" to protect Harry?

Since Dumbledore smiled when it was revealed that Voldemort succeeded in overcoming "that particular barrier" ... does this mean that Dumbledore is leading Voldemort on a merry chase to his own destruction, with Harry as the bait? 

Dumbledore is very pleased that Harry has held his own in every life-threatening situation. I think Harry is being groomed to take his place beside some very strong forces in the fight against Voldemort. My idea for the ending of Book Five is that no one person will defeat Voldemort. I think it will be a battle royal, with the best of each group defeating V's best attempts. The scene on the train where Malfoy pushed Harry too far... Ron, Harry,  and Hermione zap Malfoy, each unbeknownst to the other's intentions.... and the sudden surprise appearance of Fred & George, who also had flung curses at Malfoy... I think this is a clue of what is to come, and that the end will happen exactly like that. Only, instead of Fred & George, it will be Snape and Hagrid. I think that Hagrid's purposely downplaying his magical abilities for a greater purpose. Revenge is a dish, best served cold.

Doreen
______________________________________________________________________________
"Oooooooh!" he said, with an evil cackle. "Ickle Firsties! What fun!" Peeves the Poltergeist, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 16:15:44 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:15:44 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Philosopher^Sorcerer ??..hmm
Message-ID: <F21FRaqbC8wSA1XvpFV00005810@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14739

>
>Why do you think SCHOLASTIC changed the original tile of "Harry
>Potter & the Philosopher's Stone" to "Harry Potter & the Sorcerer's
>Stone"? It definitely wasn't J.K. who did so. Did they think that it
>was more interesting or that us Americans weren't as smart as the
>British and didn't know what a Philosopher was!!
>
>Mike
>

hehe A philosopher's someone who wears sandals and thinks alot, right?  You 
know, like that Sock Rateaze guy.
Sorry, but I have to agree with the change on this one.  Sorcerer = Merlin, 
Philosopher = ...Boring?  I mean, of course, considering the intended 
American target market - not the literate and learned people of this list. 
:)

lady leprekaun
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From kdemcak at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 16:31:49 2001
From: kdemcak at hotmail.com (kdemcak at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:31:49 -0000
Subject: Stouffer to be on ABC News
In-Reply-To: <NBBBLMIEAKMHNMICJHAHIEIDDDAA.recla@magick.net>
Message-ID: <9980ll+42og@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14740

>  Ms. Stouffer is to be on ABC Morning News giving her side of the 
Larry
> Potter Story.
> 
> dr

I saw this on Good Morning America today.  It was actually rather 
frustrating, as Diane Sawyer, who was interviewing Stouffer, had 
obviously not read the books and got some details about them wrong.

They showed the cover of the book "Larry Potter and His Best Friend 
Lilly" (Lilly Potter is apparently Larry's cousin).  It was done in a 
childish style and had a kid with brown hair and glasses and a little 
girl with pigtails.

They also had a chart of what Stouffer claims are similarities
between 
the books.  They brought up Harry/Larry, Lily/Lilly, Muggles/Muggles, 
orphaned kids, Keeper of the Keys/Keeper of the Gardens.  They also 
mentioned one I hadn't heard before: there is a character in her book 
called Nimbus who is some sort of sky god and then the Nimbus 2000 in 
HP.  And this is what REALLY got me mad: there is something in her 
book called Nevils which she says Neville Longbottom is a rip-off of.
 
uuugh...  (even worse -- "there is a creature in the Harry Potter 
books called Neville that is a half-wizard/half-human" -- Diane 
Sawyer).  Now *THAT* is stretching.

Frankly, she did not make a great case for herself, having nothing 
besides those similarities to go on, and most of them are huge 
stretches at best.  They brought up that Rowling hadn't been the US 
while the books were in print, and her reply was basically that she 
had been at a lot of trade shows with big displays of her characters 
and that Scholastic might have stolen the ideas and passed them along 
to Rowling.

They also showed a short clip of Rowling talking about how the idea 
came to her, fully formed.  And Stouffer claimed that she was the 
victim, that she is the one who is being sued, conveniently
forgetting 
to mention that she *is* suing them, too.


Cheers,
Katy







From ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com  Tue Mar 20 17:02:50 2001
From: ebragg31 at rochester.rr.com (Erich)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:02:50 -0500
Subject: okay one of my thoughts
Message-ID: <001101c0b15f$98fcfce0$3b82d2cc@rochester.rr.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14741

Okay lately I've seen, haven't really been reading the post of about Mrs. Figg.
And also a post I read a while ago that J.K. Rowling gave out little hints..
Like in the next book there will be a female teacher for defense of the dark arts class..
Could it possibly be Mrs. Figg. Since Voldemort is back and she being (if it's actually her) part of the old group, would it not make sense to bring her back into the fold?
Just a thought...
Yahoo Messenger - discords_child 14456
AOL instant Messenger- epyx4ever   epyx4Aj
ICQ- Discords_Child    #85771061
AOL- puntoa2000   epyx069


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Tue Mar 20 17:06:25 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:06:25 -0000
Subject: Harry's Protective Barriers
In-Reply-To: <00bb01c0b156$d25714c0$8914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <9982mh+6lg2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14742

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:

> Do we know of any "other barriers,"? Who, besides Lily, has placed 
>"barriers" to protect Harry?
>

One barrier is the protection he has at the Dursleys. Voldemort even 
said something to the effect that Harry is more or less safe at his in 
the custody of his relatives.

Other barriers are purely speculative at this point. I'm one of those 
who think Harry is the "heir of Gryffindor". It's conceivable 
to see the Heir of Gryffindor fighting the Heir of Slytherin. However, 
I think for that theory to be true, there should be heirs of 
Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw too because I think Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff 
and Gryffindor teamed up to banish Slytherin from Hogwarts in the 
past. 
 
> Since Dumbledore smiled when it was revealed that Voldemort 
>succeeded in overcoming "that particular barrier" ... does this mean 
>that Dumbledore is leading Voldemort on a merry chase to his own 
>destruction, with Harry as the bait? 
>

It could be. I think Harry is destined to defeat Voldemort. However, 
Harry not being able to touch Voldemort would hinder that because I 
think the final battle will come down to a hand-to-hand fight, since 
their wands can cancel each other out. 

Harry IS being groomed to fight and defeat Voldemort a second time. In 
SS/PS Dumbledore tells Harry that he cannot answer all of Harry's 
questions at that time because Harry needs time to be able to 
understand them. 

:-)Milz







From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Mar 20 18:24:36 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:24:36 -0000
Subject: D-day, was Re: Harry's Protective Barriers
In-Reply-To: <00bb01c0b156$d25714c0$8914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <998794+dmea@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14743

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> I think Harry is being groomed to take his place beside some very 
strong forces in the fight against Voldemort. My idea for the ending 
of Book Five is that no one person will defeat Voldemort. I think it 
will be a battle royal, with the best of each group defeating V's 
best attempts. 

I think Doreen has a good point.  A recent thread which asked whether 
Harry would wind up being a killer (of Voldemort) or a martyr, or if 
someone else would kill Voldy, made me think that maybe there is 
another option, and I think Doreen has hit on it.  Except that I 
think it is more likely to occur in Book 7 than in Book 5.  But I 
think there will be a battle royal, where the good guys (even Snape), 
united, defeat the evil ones.  I think Voldy will die but it will not 
be any one person who kills him; instead it will be the actions of 
the group.  This would fit, I think, with JKRs political 
perspective.  This is foreshadowed by the statement that Dumbledore 
makes in GoF about forgetting differences and uniting, etc.

Unfortunately, there are casualities in any war and very 
unfortunately Dumbledore seems to me to be Most Likely to Perish.  I 
am preparing myself for a good cry when it happens; I just love the 
barmy old codger.

Of course, this is all pure speculation.  My predictions for what 
would happen in GoF were totally wrong.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*





From steve.shea at thornwater.com  Tue Mar 20 18:40:37 2001
From: steve.shea at thornwater.com (Steve Shea)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:40:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] D-day, was Re: Harry's Protective Barriers
In-Reply-To: <998794+dmea@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c0b16d$4239a6c0$2f03030a@thornwater2>

No: HPFGUIDX 14744

All these points are valid, but I think people are forgetting someone...
Wormtail. Even Dumbledore said that there is a bond between them now. You
saw some of wormtail's feelings in GoF when he tried to persuade Volde that
they did not need Potter. I think this makes sense. It redeems wormtail for
turning on the Potters and alleviates the burden of murder from a "good"
character.

-----Original Message-----
From: joym999 at aol.com [mailto:joym999 at aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 1:25 PM
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] D-day, was Re: Harry's Protective Barriers


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> I think Harry is being groomed to take his place beside some very
strong forces in the fight against Voldemort. My idea for the ending
of Book Five is that no one person will defeat Voldemort. I think it
will be a battle royal, with the best of each group defeating V's
best attempts.

I think Doreen has a good point.  A recent thread which asked whether
Harry would wind up being a killer (of Voldemort) or a martyr, or if
someone else would kill Voldy, made me think that maybe there is
another option, and I think Doreen has hit on it.  Except that I
think it is more likely to occur in Book 7 than in Book 5.  But I
think there will be a battle royal, where the good guys (even Snape),
united, defeat the evil ones.  I think Voldy will die but it will not
be any one person who kills him; instead it will be the actions of
the group.  This would fit, I think, with JKRs political
perspective.  This is foreshadowed by the statement that Dumbledore
makes in GoF about forgetting differences and uniting, etc.

Unfortunately, there are casualities in any war and very
unfortunately Dumbledore seems to me to be Most Likely to Perish.  I
am preparing myself for a good cry when it happens; I just love the
barmy old codger.

Of course, this is all pure speculation.  My predictions for what
would happen in GoF were totally wrong.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




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From uibristol at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 19:01:42 2001
From: uibristol at yahoo.com (uibristol at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:01:42 -0000
Subject: Midgen/Midgeon
Message-ID: <9989em+bked@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14745

I was wondering how Eloise Midgen/Midgeon name is spelled in the 
American version.  Granted, in the British First Edition Midgeon is 
mentioned only once (p. 345) while Midgen is twice.  I assume its 
just a typo on 345, but thought I would check.




From katie at vquill.com  Tue Mar 20 19:00:18 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:00:18 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves & Hermione
In-Reply-To: <997pch+lofl@eGroups.com>
References: <997nmb+l51v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010320105841.00b284c0@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14746

At 02:27 PM 3/20/01 +0000, Suzanne wrote:

>The House Elves are based upon the Brownie, a creature that exists in
>folklore. Brownies live in a house and will do all of the work humans
>need to have done, but they wear very dirty and tattered rags and will
>vanish the moment you offer them clothing.
>
>--Suzanne

And, according to at least some people in the Girl Scouts, it's the basis 
of the Brownies (same organization as the Girl Scouts, only for younger 
children).

The point is just that it makes you a really good little girl to quietly do 
nice things for people. :)

-Katie





From lmrourke at snet.net  Tue Mar 20 19:21:50 2001
From: lmrourke at snet.net (LMRourke)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:21:50 -0500
Subject: Arithmancy: Hermione's  Father's  favorite subject??
Message-ID: <001401c0b173$079478a0$7fd03ccc@krass-ws>

No: HPFGUIDX 14747

Suzanne wrote:The thing that threw me though was that Hermione said "It was
my
father's favorite subject." But her parents are both Muggles, right?

I've read PoA numerous times and never remembered Hermione saying this so I
had to check it out.  In my book (American ed.) it says in chapter 12 page
251 when Harry comments that Arithmancy looks terrible. "Oh no, it's
wonderful!" said Hermione earnestly.  "It's my favorite subject!"  No
mention about her father.  Is it different in your edition?

Lisa R.




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 19:41:27 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:41:27 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] D-day, was Re: Harry's Protective Barriers
References: <998794+dmea@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011001c0b175$c206f620$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14748

oops... I did say book five.... you know I meant book seven ... I just have
book five on my mind so much because of the discussions of it .. and because
of the obvious.. it is the next book ... my bad. Does that sound like a good
enough cover up of a stupid mistake? Thanks for correcting that ... geesh If
that all happened in book five ... what would we do in books six & seven?
Have all the characters get married, live happily ever after, have children?
Boring.

Doreen
Is it 2002 yet?



I think Doreen has a good point.  A recent thread which asked whether
Harry would wind up being a killer (of Voldemort) or a martyr, or if
someone else would kill Voldy, made me think that maybe there is
another option, and I think Doreen has hit on it.  Except that I
think it is more likely to occur in Book 7 than in Book 5




From Two_wolves88 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 19:45:52 2001
From: Two_wolves88 at hotmail.com (Two_wolves88 at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:45:52 -0000
Subject: Sinistra (was: Various bits and pieces)
In-Reply-To: <99611t+q1ta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <998c1g+qgcn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14749

Actually, I've been thinking of Sinistra as a woman since GoF.  I 
seem to remember a paragraph in the book where "Moody" (Crouch, Jr.) 
makes a comment about Harry's socks.  Both of them are out on the 
dance floor during the Yule Ball, and as I recall, "Moody's" partner 
is Professor Sinistra.  (They're doing "an extremely ungainly two-
step", or something of that sort.)

That suggested to me that Sinistra was a woman.  (Or maybe the dance 
in question is one in which the gender of the partners doesn't 
matter, although I seem to recall that the two-step involves some 
hand-holding and the man's hand on his partner's waist.)  (Or maybe 
JK Rowling is just really, *really* trying to push the envelope in 
the world of children's literature?)


Seldes Katne (who is now blushing....)




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 19:47:39 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:47:39 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy: Hermione's  Father's  favorite subject??
In-Reply-To: <001401c0b173$079478a0$7fd03ccc@krass-ws>
Message-ID: <998c4r+i9gq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14750

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "LMRourke" <lmrourke at s...> wrote:
> Suzanne wrote:The thing that threw me though was that Hermione said 
"It was
> my
> father's favorite subject." But her parents are both Muggles, right?
> 
> I've read PoA numerous times and never remembered Hermione saying 
this so I
> had to check it out.  In my book (American ed.) it says in chapter 
12 page
> 251 when Harry comments that Arithmancy looks terrible. "Oh no, it's
> wonderful!" said Hermione earnestly.  "It's my favorite subject!"  
No
> mention about her father.  Is it different in your edition?

I am postive I saw this somwhere, but it may have been GoF. I can't 
remember. I am combing through right now and will get back when I find 
it.

I hope I am not hallucinating-- I DID see it and think "Huuuuuh???"

Suzanne
> 
> Lisa R.




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 19:51:14 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:51:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Midgen/Midgeon
References: <9989em+bked@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011a01c0b177$225208c0$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14751


Can you clarify this question with a book and chapter, please?
SS/CoS/PoA/GoF/OoP hee hee just seeing if anyone is paying attention
Also the chapter, since the British & American editions differ in print type
& size.
Thanks
Doreen(who knows it isn't SS or CoS... not enuff pages)

I was wondering how Eloise Midgen/Midgeon name is spelled in the
American version.  Granted, in the British First Edition Midgeon is
mentioned only once (p. 345) while Midgen is twice.  I assume its
just a typo on 345, but thought I would check.



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From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 19:58:35 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:58:35 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Midgen/Midgeon
References: <9989em+bked@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012301c0b178$2724f820$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14752


Aha! The Lexicon says it is GoF ch22
I only found her name twice... first Ron saying he didnt want to end up with
her as a date... later saying he may end up with her if he doesnt get a move
on ... both times it is spelled, Midgen. Perhaps when they were doing the
changeover, they noticed the typo and went back to the British edition and
fixed it.


I was wondering how Eloise Midgen/Midgeon name is spelled in the
American version.  Granted, in the British First Edition Midgeon is
mentioned only once (p. 345) while Midgen is twice.  I assume its
just a typo on 345, but thought I would check.



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From alggu at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 20:18:20 2001
From: alggu at hotmail.com (alggu at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:18:20 -0000
Subject: a cure for werewolfs?/ I'm new
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010314210717.034b6100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <998duc+8q8e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14753

Hi everyone!

I have been following this group for a couple of days, and I have 
found the discussions very interesting. Since I have not gone through 
the archives, please forgive me if this has been mentioned before.

In PoA, Lupin said "My parents tried everything, but in those days 
there was no cure." (p. 258) Presumably this means that there is a 
cure nowadays, but you have to perform the charm or whatever it takes 
rather soon after you have been bitten. Otherwise I think that 
Dumbledore would have seen to that Lupin would have been cured, since 
he is such an excellent teacher. 




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 20:26:56 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:26:56 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] D-day, was Re: Harry's Protective Barriers
References: <998794+dmea@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <015901c0b17c$1cc04e80$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14754

Unfortunately, there are casualities in any war and very
unfortunately Dumbledore seems to me to be Most Likely to Perish.  I
am preparing myself for a good cry when it happens; I just love the
barmy old codger.

Of course, this is all pure speculation.  My predictions for what
would happen in GoF were totally wrong.
Joywitch M. Curmudgeon

What if the hero of the day and the real casualty is Severus Snape? Then we
will all be struck by a bad case of the guilts for having misjudged and
maligned him for all these years. You know, I never liked snakes and thought
they looked slimey until I picked one up. The skin felt cool and smooth to
the touch. It was fascinating how the snake curled itself around and around
my arm. I was surprised how strong it was for such a small creature... and
how very unafraid it was. hmmmmmmmmmm

Doreen who thinks Snape, like snakes, grows on you when you least expect it




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 20:41:46 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:41:46 -0000
Subject: which house MWPP were in
In-Reply-To: <3AB75D51.731541D1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <998faa+mc96@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14755

Amanda wrote:

> Here ya go. Page 246, US:
> 
> "Well --- let's drink to a Gryffindor victory against Ravenclaw! Not
> that I'm supposed to take sides, as a teacher....," he added 
hastily.
> 
> I interpreted this mostly as supporting Harry's side, but there 
could be
> an old allegiance to Gryffindor operating, too.

Hey wow, I remembered it exactly backwards.  Thanks for the 
correction.  I guess I just interpreted it the way you did (mostly 
pro-Harry, not particularly pro-Gryffindor) and remembered the words 
the way that would match best!

Now that I read it, I think he's pro-Gryff, not just supporting 
Harry.  So I'll go along with that being another point in favor of 
Lupin's having been in Gryffindor (and what's wrong with teachers' 
cheering for their old houses anyway?).  But I still wonder if JKR 
has surprises in store about that generation...

Amy Z




From hera_rab at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 20:42:30 2001
From: hera_rab at hotmail.com (Rachel Brantley)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:42:30 -0500
Subject: Harry's Protective Barriers (also Hagrid, Dumbledore, Snape)
Message-ID: <F168keS8YkdavN3qljW00005d97@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14756

Subjects: Harry's Protective Barriers (reply), Hagrid's magic wand, 
Dumbledore, Voldemort's control, Snape & DADA, Marauder's Map

Doreen quoted:

>For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like 
> >triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had 
> >>imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the 
> >>desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him.

>"Very well," he said, sitting down again. "Voldemort has overcome that 
> >particular barrier. Harry please continue."

>Do we know of any "other barriers,"? Who, besides Lily, has placed 
> >>>>"barriers" to protect Harry?

>Since Dumbledore smiled when it was revealed that Voldemort succeeded >in 
>overcoming "that particular barrier" ... does this mean that >>>>
>Dumbledore is leading Voldemort on a merry chase to his own destruction, 
>with Harry as the bait?

I always wondered why there would be triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. I figure 
you're right. He must have something else in store for Voldemort. Wait, I 
just got an idea, I think someone else may have mentioned something like 
this before that Voldemort's down fall would be his rediscovering his 
humanity. If he now has a mother's love in him, something he never had, it 
could gradually show him humanity. Eh, I'm sure JKR will come up with 
something better than that.

Doreen also said:
>Only, instead of Fred & George, it will be Snape and Hagrid. I think >>that 
>Hagrid's purposely downplaying his magical abilities for a >>
>greater purpose.

I remember, I forget if it was SS/PS or CS, that Harry saw Hagrid's pink 
umbrella, the one he used in SS to take Harry to get his Hogwarts stuff, 
leaning against his house and thought that Hagrid's wand was probably in 
there. I don't recall JKR tying up this loose end in PoA or GoF.

I'm new on this list so I don't know if you've covered these ideas already 
but here goes nothing:

Dumbledore:
	I've wondered that if Dumbledore was such a great wizard (the only one 
Voldy fears) why he isn't in the MoM, perhaps the minister. He's probably 
too smart for that though.
	The other thing I wonder is what house did he belong to at Hogwarts? If it 
was in any of the books, I missed it. My heart says he's Griffindor. He did 
have the Griffindor sword that Harry found/used in CS in his office (in 
GoF).

Lupin, Sirius, Pettigrew, & others and their houses:
	I think that sorting hat knows more about a person than we think. Although 
a person may be led astray, ie. Wormtail, their true self is a Griffindor, 
etc. This could explain how Pettigrew could be a Griffindor and worship 
Voldemort.

That leads me to another thought about Voldemort:
	I think he must have some power, either a curse, or just the strength of 
his power to control people. Perhaps he has the most control over people who 
are a little weak minded. Of course, there's probably a good healthy dose of 
fear mixed in. But, it shows when in GoF all but two DE's show up when 
summoned.

Snape and the DADA rumor:
	First I think that just Snape being a former DE could have spread the rumor 
among the student body.
	But, if it is true that he wants the position, I think it's possible that 
Dumbledore hasn't given it to him for his own good. Since he was a DE, being 
exposed to it might be too much. It would be like giving a person on a diet 
a bag of Doritos. It could have some bad consequences. But, it may also be 
true that it's even harder to find a good Potions instructor than a DADA 
instructor.

Marauder's Map MIA:
	I have a feeling that the powers that be (AKA JKR) will have Harry find the 
map again when he absolutely needs it. Think about the invisibility cloak in 
SS. It was returned to him for the second time just when it was needed.

That's it for now. I'd love to know what you all think.

Rachel Brantley


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 20:44:31 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:44:31 -0000
Subject: Philosopher^Sorcerer ??..hmm
In-Reply-To: <002301c0b144$e31d13c0$8914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <998fff+h4r0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14757

JKR wrote (thanks, Doreen):


> The title change was Arthur's idea initially, because he felt that 
the
> British title gave a misleading idea of the subject matter. We 
discussed
> several alternative titles and 'Sorcerer's Stone' was my idea.
> 

She has since said that she wishes she hadn't gone along with the 
suggestion--was this in last week's chat? or some other recent 
interview?

Losing brain cells by the minute,
Amy Z




From Frito_KAL at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 20:48:46 2001
From: Frito_KAL at yahoo.com (Karen Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 12:48:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: J.K. Rowling: FALSE ACCUSATIONS
In-Reply-To: <997mqs+fvjd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010320204846.62181.qmail@web9403.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14758


 > WOULD YOU PEOPLE BACK OFF. FIRST YOUR'RE ACCUSING J.K. ROWLING 
> OF 'STEALING' THE WHOLE IDEA FROM STOUFFER (OR WHATEVER HER NAME IS) 
> AND NOW YOU'RE SAYING SHE'S BEING RACIST BY RELATING MUDBLOODS TO 
> JEWS AND DIRTY TO AFRICAN AMERICANS. SHE'S JUST WRITING A 
> BOOK,FORHEAVEN'SSAKE, SO STOP IT WILL YOU. PLEASE.
> 
> MIKE

 

Here's hoping you aren't a troll just emailing this for a reaction.  I loathe feeding trolls.

Been lurking for.. about a month, I guess, btw. Just my first chance to speak up.

With the exception of the one person posting a week ago -- I don't see anyone on here who thinks that J.K.Rowling was stealing copyrighted information from the talentless hack.... er.. other authoress.

And the discussion here isn't on if the books are rasist -- but if some of the characters are. Rowling is writing a book that has, in part a theme that is very ANTI-Racist.

The muggle-haters and folks calling Herminone a 'mud-blood' are the ''bad guys'' -- Rowling hasn't given a single one of them a postive portrayl.

--

 

Frito - delurking. May post more, may not. 


 



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 20:55:16 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:55:16 -0000
Subject: SPOILER: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil - Canon Evidence
In-Reply-To: <997p2i+i5bp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <998g3k+ihhs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14759

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> K
> N
> E
> A
> Z
> L
> E
> S
> -
> N
> O
> W
> A
> N
> D
> F
> O
> R
> E
> V
> E
> R

<snip> However, when Draco comes in, Crookshanks does nothing 
negative - it 
> would take only one line by JKR, something like "...and Crookshanks 
> woke up from his snooze and glowered at Malfoy..." or "...they 
didn't 
> even realize he was there until they heard Crookshanks hiss..." 
Lines 
> like that, on a reading of the books pre-FB&WTFT could have been 
> assumed as a regular catty reaction - but after reading about 
> Kneazles in FB&WTFT, it would've been clear to ALL of us that JKR 
was 
> saying that Draco was an "unsavoury or suspicious character". 
> But she didn't. 

Okay, are you really trying to argue that canon Draco isn't 
unsavoury?  (Ooh, it's fun to spell like that.  Our US spelling is so 
thin and weak.)  In that case, I assume you're saying that he's just 
acting every time he calls someone a mudblood?  'Cause I trust the 
evidence of our senses; Draco is definitely a highly unpleasant 
person.  I'll withhold judgment on "evil."  But yes, it could all be 
an act.

Another possibility is that Kneazles and Kneazle-cat mixes, like 
cats, sleep most of the time, and they don't wake up out of naps just 
to hiss at nasty, unsavoury brats.

However, the adjective "unsavoury" certainly has some interesting 
connotations when applied to Draco, considering that "tasty" is more 
likely to apply...whoops, fell off the canon there for a second.

;-)
Amy Z




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Tue Mar 20 21:02:58 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:02:58 -0500
Subject: House elves; religion
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC07A3@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14760

> 
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:27:29 -0000
>    From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: House Elves & Hermione
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> 
> 
> It's true that "inherent" arguments were made about 
> > human "races" with obvious political purposes, but we're talking 
> > about an imaginary world and an imaginary species. It seems to me 
> > that, according to the books, house elves do have an innate 
> tendency 
> > to serve human beings (after all, they are HOUSE elves, and houses 
> > are human habitats). Since humans do not have a similar tendency to 
> > serve elves, I don't see how a relationship of equality can exist...
> 
> 
> Although I do believe that JKR is making social commentary here, here 
> is a little bit of folkloric background:
> 
> The House Elves are based upon the Brownie, a creature that exists in 
> folklore. Brownies live in a house and will do all of the work humans 
> need to have done, but they wear very dirty and tattered rags 
> and will 
> vanish the moment you offer them clothing. In every story I have read 
> about Brownies, they are magically bound to do all of the 
> work (and do 
> it quickly and easily and are rather boisterous about it) and the 
> grateful housewife thinks "Wouldn't it be nice to at least make new 
> suits for them to show my thanks!" The Brownies then snatch 
> up the new 
> clothing, make some triumphant (or rude) cry and run off into the 
> night. Rowling said in a  recent interview that she thought it would 
> be an interesting twist if the house elves considered being given 
> clothing to be a kind of disgrace.
> 
> I think it is great that JKR can take a traditional story and give it 
> a nice social twist. She has done a great job of extending these 
> creatures and thinking "Hmmm... So how would some humans react to 
> having a house elf and how would the house elves feel about it?"
> 
> --Suzanne
>

I agree with Suzanne, here, and I'd also like to go one step further
(quoting my own fanfic, the epitome of cheek). I had to deal with the
implications of house-elves in my story, and I decided that, not only do
they feel it is their privilege to work for humans, they actually _derive
their powers_ from doing so. Their magic is inextricably linked to having a
household to serve--if not one person's, than another's. From Fred and
George we learn that "house-elves have got powerful magic of their own, but
they usually can't use it without their masters' permission." (CoS, chapter
3) This would explain why it is crucial for Dobby and Winky to find another
position after being freed.

However, just because they aren't "paid," doesn't mean they don't have
standards and a social hierarchy of their own.  Fred and George also tell us
(same scene) that "whoever owns him will be an old wizarding family, and
they'll be rich" and explain that "house-elves come with big old manors and
castles and places like that." George indicates that a house-elf's pride is
a factor in choosing a family, but it may imply more that they are a
throw-back to an older, grander age, or perhaps a more powerful bond than a
poor family can "afford." 

It's my belief that Dobby is a visionary among house-elves. His presence at
Hogwarts will create a slow realization among the others that there are more
equitable arrangements to be made than willing slavery. However, consider
the implications to Hogwarts' fees if suddenly more than 100 personnel are
added to the payroll! ;^)

The lesson Hermione is learning here is that social reform takes time to get
rolling, but that the actions of a few may begin a movement. However, it's
not her place to force it to happen. She needs to reason with them, not
mandate that they "should" feel one way or another. I think there is an
intrinsic value to the house-elf to be employed, especially if his powers
derive directly from that state of occupation. As long as the fear of losing
their powers--and maybe their existence--is greater than their discomfort in
servitude, the majority of house-elves will not change their position.

> Message: 12
>    Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:56:24 -0000
>    From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com
> Subject: Muggle and Magical Worlds (Re: Wizarding Holidays)
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> > meboriqua at a... wrote:
> > 
> > > Okay, in relation to all the postings about how witches and 
> wizards
> > > get educated when they are young and if they study Muggle 
> subjects, I
> > > was wondering why the magical world celebrated holidays like 
> Halloween
> > > and Christmas.  Does magical history cross with Muggle history, or
> > > shouldn't they have their own holidays?  Does that mean that all
> > > witches and wizards are Christian?  Just a thought.
> > 
> They also have Easter holidays at Hogwarts: in GoF, Mrs. Weasley 
> sends Easter sweets to them all including Hermione who gets a rather 
> small treat in comparison to the rest. Easter Holidays is probably a 
> 4 day-weekend affair in which students don't generally go home 
> (Afterall, it takes a day on the Hogwarts Express to get to King's 
> Crossing and another day to get back to Hogwarts, leaving only 2 days 
> to do whatever.)
> 
> 
> :-) Milz 
> 


This is, not surprisingly, something else I addressed in my fanfic. I think
that the Wizarding world, like the secular one, unwittingly or unconsciously
reflects the habits of the majority of its inhabitants. Though we have never
seen evidence of wizarding families going to church, it would not surprise
me to learn that most of them, if asked on a survey, would consider
themselves C of E (if in England), just as many people in America,
regardless of whether they attend a church regularly or belong to a
congregation, will identify themselves as "Protestant" or more generally
"Christian" on a census. That's not to say there aren't significant
populations of other religions, but Christianity still appears to be the
norm, and is assumed to be the default for most institutions.

Likewise, the wizarding world, I think, has adjusted its attitude toward
church involvement in this century, just as Muggle education has done. In my
story, I deliberately indicated that in the previous century, Sunday church
was mandatory for all students. Now it isn't. This isn't an indication that
wizards aren't Christian; it's an indication that wizarding families no
longer necessarily feel that Hogwarts is also responsible for their
children's religious instruction while at school. There are American
boarding schools who used to require church attendance as well, until the
laws prohibited them from doing so.

Why did those laws change? Because we (meaning society in general) have
become more sensitive to the numbers of students in schools who do not
participate in the dominant religion. Yet our holidays, our schedules, and
our activities are still built around them. (For example, we and Hogwarts
have breaks at Christmas and Easter, not Ramadan or Passover.) The Halloween
Feast isn't really a holiday--though they have a Hogsmeade weekend
traditionally around Hallow's. But they still celebrate the calendrical New
Year, not Chinese New Year, not Rosh Hoshanna, and not Samhain.

(I don't want to get into a discussion of holiday origins, but it should be
noted that almost all Christian holidays correspond to a pagan festival of
some kind: soltice, candlemas, hallow's, etc., and not incidentally with
their Jewish roots as well.)

I would think that the kitchens receive instructions about providing kosher
meals for Jewish students, pork-free dishes for Muslims, vegetarian meals,
etc. Rowling hasn't focused on this in the books because none of these
special restrictions apply to our terrific trio. Even the Dursleys, who are
our quintessential example of Muggles gone too far, exhibit no evidence of a
devoutly religious participation. I believe this is a side-effect of the
secularization of society, not a conscious decision to be atheistic on
Rowling's part.

Hope that makes some sense.

Gwen



From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Tue Mar 20 21:19:38 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:19:38 -0000
Subject: Vernon knowing Dumbledore
Message-ID: <998hha+b9ko@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14761


  "I?m not paying for some crackpot old fool to teach him magic 
tricks!"

These are Vernons words in the beginning of Philosophers Stone. How 
much does this tell abut his doings with Dumbledore? That he has, in 
fact, met him? How would he know that Dumbledore is, in fact, all 
this - now, *I* do love Dumbledore... - but if I was a less tolerant 
person, I might find him being the things mentioned. I hardly think 
the information in the letter that came along with harry gave away 
information about Dumbledores characterstics - at least not about his 
age? 

 Of course, it could be Petunia who has told him - then she would be 
the one to know quite a lot about the wizarding world. But is it Lily 
who has talk to her about Dumbledore in terms like 
these? ..."crackpot old fool"? In a very humourus way, maybe - but 
no, did the have such a relationship? I have to doubt it a bit...

...what do you think?

/Jennifer




From old_wych at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 21:20:59 2001
From: old_wych at yahoo.com (A B)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:20:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail's Bond with Harry
In-Reply-To: <000c01c0b16d$4239a6c0$2f03030a@thornwater2>
Message-ID: <20010320212059.5393.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14762


--- Steve Shea <steve.shea at thornwater.com> wrote:
> All these points are valid, but I think people are
> forgetting someone...
> Wormtail. Even Dumbledore said that there is a bond
> between them now. You
> saw some of wormtail's feelings in GoF when he tried
> to persuade Volde that
> they did not need Potter. I think this makes sense.
> It redeems wormtail for
> turning on the Potters and alleviates the burden of
> murder from a "good"
> character.

This remids me of the discussion a few weeks ago re:
Wormtail and Wormtongue in LOTR. You know, Wormtongue
ended up killing Saruman (OK, not as bad as Sauron,
but still bad enough)... Makes me wonder if Wormtail
might settle his account with Harry in a similar way.
Is Wormtail brave enough??? Hard to say, but then,
Wormtongue never seemed like a brave character,
either.

Anne


__________________________________________________
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From uibristol at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 21:22:06 2001
From: uibristol at yahoo.com (uibristol at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:22:06 -0000
Subject: Midgen/Midgeon
In-Reply-To: <012301c0b178$2724f820$8914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <998hlu+lu2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14763


> Aha! The Lexicon says it is GoF ch22
> I only found her name twice... first Ron saying he didnt want to 
end up with
> her as a date... later saying he may end up with her if he doesnt 
get a move
> on ... both times it is spelled, Midgen. Perhaps when they were 
doing the
> changeover, they noticed the typo and went back to the British 
edition and
> fixed it.


Thanks--She's also mentioned in Chapter 13, Book 4, when talking of 
the uses of bubotuber pus.  She tried to curse her acne off, and 
cursed her nose off instead.  Madame Pomfrey got it back on, but 
after Ron's comment in Chapter 22 I think it can be assumed she put 
it on off-centre.

thanks again




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 20 21:26:28 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:26:28 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Philosopher^Sorcerer ??..hmm
References: <998fff+h4r0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <019e01c0b184$8c8e2860$8914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14764

JKR wrote

> The title change was Arthur's idea initially, because he felt that
the
> British title gave a misleading idea of the subject matter. We
discussed
> several alternative titles and 'Sorcerer's Stone' was my idea.
>

She has since said that she wishes she hadn't gone along with the
suggestion--was this in last week's chat? or some other recent
interview?

Yes, it was in the Red Nose Interview:

Losing brain cells by the minute,
Amy Z

Q Does it bother you that in America they changed the names of your books?
JKR They changed the first title, but with my consent to be honest. I wish I
hadn't agreed now but it was my first book, and I was so grateful that
anyone was publishing me I wanted to keep them happy.

Doreen







From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 21:33:04 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:33:04 -0000
Subject: House Elves & Hermione
In-Reply-To: <997nmb+l51v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <998iag+o450@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14765

Naama, who promises that she would treat her house elf with great 
respect, pay it a salary, and even allow it to call her a barmy old 
codger (I know you would, Naama! <smile>), wrote:

It seems to me 
> that, according to the books, house elves do have an innate 
tendency 
> to serve human beings (after all, they are HOUSE elves, and houses 
> are human habitats). Since humans do not have a similar tendency to 
> serve elves, I don't see how a relationship of equality can exist. 
> One is INHERENTLY the servant, the other is INHERENTLY the master. 
> The equality of human beings rests precisely on the premise that 
> there are no such INHERENT tendencies (no race or group are "born" 
> servile, for instance).

Inherent means inborn.  We have no reason to think that house-elves 
are *born* to serve humans, any more than humans are born to serve 
house-elves.  The reason could well lie in history, just as the 
reasons whites enslaved blacks and the opposite has rarely been seen 
are contingent and based on the accidents of human history.

Then, too, there are many possible forms of symbiosis that could have 
arisen but did not.  Perhaps the elves would never be happy with a 
solution that didn't include their serving humans (as Hagrid says).  
That's fine!  But it could be a kind of service that, instead of the 
kind that currently exists, is dignified, even fully equal--after 
all, there might be ways humans can serve elves in turn.  

As for the term "house-elf," it does indeed assume that that's where 
the elves belong.  But that might be a term that arose out of these 
centuries of inequality, not the house-elves' term of choice for 
themselves (at least the visionaries like Dobby). 

> I'm not at all sure about this. George also says it. Hagrid said 
> that "it'd be doing them an unkindness." More importantly still, 
the 
> elves in the kitchen do behave in that way. They are very clearly 
> horrified at Hermione's suggestions and talk of rights. So, 
although 
> you might say "cultural conditioning", Ron's comment is more or 
less 
> true, as far as the reality he knows goes. 

I like Gwen's phrase:  "there are more equitable arrangements to be 
made than willing slavery."  Most of the elves are themselves 
horrified by the thought of change--undoubtedly true.  The question 
is, can there be a third path?  An alternative to the false choices 
of "put up with the way things are" or "be an outcast, like Dobby"?  
I dislike Ron's comment so much (AND George's; Hagrid's is a bit 
different) because it refuses to envision a third way:  a system in 
which the elves are happy *and* free.  

Harry is horrified by Dobby's predicament, as well he should be--this 
is someone who beats his head against the wall when he even thinks of 
criticizing his master.  How can anyone say of him or any other 
elf, "He likes it"?  He might not see a better alternative, but that 
doesn't mean he likes it.  A responsible attitude would acknowledge 
that he hates his servitude and try to suggest alternatives that he 
would prefer.

> In our world there just don't happen to be such creatures as house 
> elves (intelligent non-humans that are inherently attached to 
> humans). Therefore, we have never had to deal with the moral 
problems 
> arising from a relationship with them (the moral problem for us was 
> to stop thinking in such a way of other human beings.) I think that 
> these moral problems are different from the moral problems arising 
> from human-human realtionship, and so I don't think that the racist 
> (or male-chauvinist) similes are appropriate here.

Very true; this is a situation with no exact parallel in our lives.  
But surely we are meant to draw parallels between this issue and the 
civil rights issues that face us.  Otherwise we couldn't draw a 
parallel between anti-Muggle sentiment and our forms of racism 
either.  After all, Muggles ARE different from wizards, in a way that 
you can't say of whites and blacks, Jews and Christians, etc. etc.  
So why do we say Draco is racist/prejudiced, instead of saying "well, 
wizards might really be superior to Muggles"?  We do draw the 
parallel, and I believe we are meant to.  The same with the house-
elf/wizard relationship.
 
> I think also that the "mudblood"/"pureblood" ideology is hateful 
and 
> intense enough to fill the racism slot in the story.
> 

No doubt.  But I really don't think JKR thought so....  Well, there's 
no way to know.  We all see the story through our own lenses, and 
anti-racism is a lens I try to use a lot.  When Amos Diggory 
says "Elf!" with that terrible disdain, I hear echoes of white men 
calling black men "Boy!" just because they can.

Amy Z




From eccleston at clara.co.uk  Tue Mar 20 21:33:58 2001
From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:33:58 -0000
Subject: a cure for werewolfs?/ I'm new
In-Reply-To: <998duc+8q8e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <998ic6+7av@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14766

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., alggu at h... wrote:
> Hi everyone!
> 
> I have been following this group for a couple of days, and I have 
> found the discussions very interesting. Since I have not gone 
through 
> the archives, please forgive me if this has been mentioned before.
> 
> In PoA, Lupin said "My parents tried everything, but in those days 
> there was no cure." (p. 258) Presumably this means that there is a 
> cure nowadays, but you have to perform the charm or whatever it 
takes 
> rather soon after you have been bitten. Otherwise I think that 
> Dumbledore would have seen to that Lupin would have been cured, 
since 
> he is such an excellent teacher.

I read it as simply referring to Snapes Wolfsbane potiion, which 
minimises the effects. ie still a werewolf, but keeps his mind.

I agree that Lupin is a really engaging character, but I can't help 
but feel a bit worried for him in future books, given what JKR did to 
poor old Cedric Diggory.





From eccleston at clara.co.uk  Tue Mar 20 21:38:55 2001
From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:38:55 -0000
Subject: Harry's Protective Barriers (also Hagrid, Dumbledore, Snape)
In-Reply-To: <F168keS8YkdavN3qljW00005d97@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <998ilf+kpvj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14767

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Brantley" <hera_rab at h...> wrote:
> Subjects: Harry's Protective Barriers (reply), Hagrid's magic wand, 
> Dumbledore, Voldemort's control, Snape & DADA, Marauder's Map
> 
> Dumbledore:
> 	I've wondered that if Dumbledore was such a great wizard (the 
only one 
> Voldy fears) why he isn't in the MoM, perhaps the minister. He's 
probably 
> too smart for that though.
> 	> Rachel Brantley


I'm sure there's a reference (?Hagrid) saying that Dumbledore was 
offered the Ministry of Magic, but turned it down 'cos he liked 
Hogworts too much
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From uibristol at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 21:54:15 2001
From: uibristol at yahoo.com (uibristol at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:54:15 -0000
Subject: House Elves and Inherent Tendencies
In-Reply-To: <997nmb+l51v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <998ji7+c5tv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14768

naama writes;
> 
> Well, I'm not saying that elves should be mistreated or that their 
> attachment should be abused. They should have their rights. All I 
am 
> saying is that elf-master is not the same relationship as human 
slave-
> master. It's true that "inherent" arguments were made about 
> human "races" with obvious political purposes, but we're talking 
> about an imaginary world and an imaginary species. It seems to me 
> that, according to the books, house elves do have an innate 
tendency 
> to serve human beings (after all, they are HOUSE elves, and houses 
> are human habitats). Since humans do not have a similar tendency to 
> serve elves, I don't see how a relationship of equality can exist. 
> One is INHERENTLY the servant, the other is INHERENTLY the master. 
> The equality of human beings rests precisely on the premise that 
> there are no such INHERENT tendencies (no race or group are "born" 
> servile, for instance).

I have trouble with 'inherent' because of the powerful magic house 
elves possess.  It seems silly to give a creature/being such powers 
and then disallow them from using their gifts.  It's rather limiting 
to say you can only use your abilities when someone else tells you 
to.  I would agree that they may be innately docile, but have trouble 
believing that a natural power of an independent-thinking and 
intelligent being should be suppressed by someone else.  Even though 
Winky was a servant to Crouch, she still did make her own decisions, 
seen through her refusal, even when out of his service to discuss his 
matters.  I cannot say, based on what Rowling has given us, that they 
are not comfortable in what they do, but 'inherent' does seem to 
imply 'natural' or 'innate' which is rather strong for me.

Also, who has given them the name 'house' elf?  The wizards, of 
course.  So, it's hard to use that name to justify an 'inherent' 
place.  I do agree,Namaa, that rights should be given, but within 
their role as servile, where do these rights have a place?  Drastic 
changes in the 'house elf' status would have to change.  I think that 
the grant of these rights would change the relationship and make the 
role of house elves in her novels obsolete.  Rights do suggest a 
certain level of natural equality.  'Granting rights' itself seems to 
imply that they exist, the just simply haven't been given.  You can't 
grant something that doesn't already exist; you have to then create 
the right.

Intelligence and gifted magical abilities make an inherent role 
throughout time difficult.  

uibristol




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 20 21:52:21 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:52:21 -0000
Subject: Why isn't Dumbledore at the Ministry (was Harry's barriers
In-Reply-To: <998ilf+kpvj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <998jel+6vcn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14769

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., eccleston at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Brantley" <hera_rab at h...> wrote:
> > Subjects: Harry's Protective Barriers (reply), Hagrid's magic wand, 
> > Dumbledore, Voldemort's control, Snape & DADA, Marauder's Map
> > 
> > Dumbledore:
> > 	I've wondered that if Dumbledore was such a great wizard (the 
> only one 
> > Voldy fears) why he isn't in the MoM, perhaps the minister. He's 
> probably 
> > too smart for that though.
> > 	> Rachel Brantley
> 
> 
> I'm sure there's a reference (?Hagrid) saying that Dumbledore was 
> offered the Ministry of Magic, but turned it down 'cos he liked 
> Hogworts too much
> > 
It's in SS/PS chapter 5:
	[Hagrid speaking]"They wanted Dumbledore fer Minister, o' course, 
but he'd never leave Hogwarts, so old Cornelius Fudge got the job. 
Bungler if there ever was one. So he pelts Dumbledore with owls every 
morning, askin' fer advice."
[Harry asks]
"But what does a Ministry of Magic do?"
"Well, their main job is to keep it from the Muggles that there's still 
witches and wizards up an' down the country."

As for *why* Dumbledore turned the job down, he says in his eulogy for 
Cedric,
(GoF ch.37) "It is my belief that truth is generally preferable to 
lies..."
	I think Dumbledore prefers to be in the business of imparting the 
truth rather than concealing it.

Pippin





From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Mar 20 17:00:44 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:00:44 EST5EDT
Subject: John Cleese interview
Message-ID: <AD5CBC1368@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14770

Here's a link to an interview with John Cleese talking about being in 
the movie.

http://www.popcorn.co.uk/news/story.jhtml?id=46066



Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From ljl236 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 22:03:44 2001
From: ljl236 at yahoo.com (LJL)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:03:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: arithmancy and hermione
In-Reply-To: <985117673.8014.51669.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010320220344.99398.qmail@web9107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14771

Don't forget, Hermione's parents are not only both Muggles, they are both
dentists. Hermione tells us in GoF they don't read the Daily Prophet and,
remember, (in PofA I believe it was) Mr. Weasley, bless him, could hardly
wait to get them off to the the Leaky Cauldron so he could have a drink
and chat with real Muggles who were a lot nicer to him than the dratted
Dursleys!
  LJL
   

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From katie at vquill.com  Tue Mar 20 21:54:31 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:54:31 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail's Bond with Harry
In-Reply-To: <20010320212059.5393.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <000c01c0b16d$4239a6c0$2f03030a@thornwater2>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010320135107.00b1e640@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14772

At 01:20 PM 3/20/01 -0800, you wrote:

>This remids me of the discussion a few weeks ago re:
>Wormtail and Wormtongue in LOTR. You know, Wormtongue
>ended up killing Saruman (OK, not as bad as Sauron,
>but still bad enough)... Makes me wonder if Wormtail
>might settle his account with Harry in a similar way.
>Is Wormtail brave enough??? Hard to say, but then,
>Wormtongue never seemed like a brave character,
>either.
>
>Anne


I just thought of that the other day! I mean two sniveling traitors named 
Worm-something? Could that be a coincidence? :P  Of course, Wormtongue 
didn't actually kill the old king, he just nearly ruined the kingdom -- 
unlike Wormtail, who did cause James' death. Are there any other 
similarities? I guess we might not know enough of the story yet. But both 
were spies for their evil lords for quite a while.

I don't know if he'll be the downfall, but it sure is fun to compare, isn't 
it?  And it feeds my two current movie obsessions as well! ;D

(9 months left to LOTR.... Whee!)

-Katie




From margdean at erols.com  Tue Mar 20 22:38:25 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:38:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail's Bond with Harry
References: <20010320212059.5393.qmail@web5203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AB7DBE1.E643DAC1@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14773

A B wrote:
> 
> --- Steve Shea <steve.shea at thornwater.com> wrote:
> > All these points are valid, but I think people are
> > forgetting someone... Wormtail. Even Dumbledore said
> > that there is a bond between them now. You saw some
> > of wormtail's feelings in GoF when he tried to persuade
> > Volde that they did not need Potter. I think this makes
> > sense.  It redeems wormtail for turning on the Potters
> > and alleviates the burden of murder from a "good"
> > character.
> 
> This remids me of the discussion a few weeks ago re:
> Wormtail and Wormtongue in LOTR. You know, Wormtongue
> ended up killing Saruman (OK, not as bad as Sauron,
> but still bad enough)... Makes me wonder if Wormtail
> might settle his account with Harry in a similar way.
> Is Wormtail brave enough??? Hard to say, but then,
> Wormtongue never seemed like a brave character,
> either.

Although keep in mind that Wormtongue murdered Saruman not
through any bond with Frodo (or anyone else), but because Saruman
had treated him so vilely and he Wasn't Going To Take It Any
More!  Not that Voldie is exactly nice to Peter, either, of
course . . .


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From margdean at erols.com  Tue Mar 20 22:48:11 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:48:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves & Hermione
References: <998iag+o450@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB7DE2B.2507DF2B@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14774

Actually, what the entire House Elf situation boils down to at
this point is that Hermione is charging ahead with =very=
incomplete information -- about house-elves, about their nature,
about their relationships with wizards and the history thereof. 
My goodness, Our Hermione not doing her =research=?  I am
shocked, I tell you, shocked!  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 20 22:11:05 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:11:05 -0600
Subject: ADMIN Reminder: News Links
References: <AD5CBC1368@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <3AB7D579.BC359A32@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14775

Hi --

Rachel Bray wrote:

> Here's a link to an interview with John Cleese talking about being in
> the movie.
>
> http://www.popcorn.co.uk/news/story.jhtml?id=46066

Friendly reminder: News links now belong *only* in the
HP4GU-Announcements groups!

Please (please, please, please) read the descriptions of what belongs in
Announcements & what belongs in OT-Chatter.  This system is designed to
reduce message volume (and it's not doing that if I have to post
continual ADMIN messages to remind people).

The overall basic premise of the new system: things that discuss the
books (canon) belong on the main group.  In general, almost everything
else goes to Announcements or OT-Chatter.

Thanks --

Penny
The Mod Squad



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 22:37:20 2001
From: AliciaSpinnet at hotmail.com (*sue.*)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:37:20 -0000
Subject: Alicia/Sue's Leave of Absence
Message-ID: <998m30+9rmb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14776

Dear Members of HP for Grownups:

Alicia/Sue Spinnet here.  First, I'd like to thank you all for making 
my stay in the HP online community a pleasant one.  I've made a lot 
of great friends, honed my writing skills, and picked up some 
unforgettable catchphrases.

Unfortunately, this email is not to inform you of something happy; on 
the contrary.  

I will be taking an extended leave of absence from HP in the online 
world, due to intense personal problems that I need to work out 
before anything else, effective immediately.  All discussion groups I 
am active in will not hear from me, I won't be in any chats, this 
email account will go unchecked, and most unfortunate of all, my 
fanfiction will have to go on the backburner, meaning it will stall.  
(Word of advice to all: never trust anyone with anything.  You never 
know who'll hurt you.)

I deeply regret this decision, and it was a hard one for me to make.  
I'll miss you all terribly, and will hopefully see you all in a few 
months.

In the meantime, any important correspondence can be sent to 
SkaPrincess27 at yahoo.com .  This email address will hopefully be 
checked once a week, and I'll try hard to get back to every single 
one of you.

Once again, I do this with a heavy heart; this community has become 
an important part of my life, and rest assured that I won't forget 
about you guys.  The Coven group will live on, and I will hopefully 
be back on the boards and ff.n by June at the latest.

Thanks for all the memories,

Alicia/Sue Spinnet




From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 20 22:40:06 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:40:06 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vernon knowing Dumbledore
Message-ID: <F30AMfKQu1bCdUg07MJ00005e91@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14777

>From: jennifer.k at lycos.com

>   "Im not paying for some crackpot old fool to teach him magic
>tricks!"
>
>These are Vernons words in the beginning of Philosophers Stone. How
>much does this tell abut his doings with Dumbledore? That he has, in
>fact, met him? How would he know that Dumbledore is, in fact, all
>this - now, *I* do love Dumbledore... - but if I was a less tolerant
>person, I might find him being the things mentioned. I hardly think
>the information in the letter that came along with harry gave away
>information about Dumbledores characterstics - at least not about his
>age?
>
>  Of course, it could be Petunia who has told him - then she would be
>the one to know quite a lot about the wizarding world. But is it Lily
>who has talk to her about Dumbledore in terms like
>these? ..."crackpot old fool"? In a very humourus way, maybe - but
>no, did the have such a relationship? I have to doubt it a bit...
>
>...what do you think?
>
>/Jennifer

Here's me popping in with my Squib theory again (am I spelling that right?). 
  I won't bore you with the whole (long) message again (see 14665 if you're 
interested), but if (great?) Gram/Gramps were of the magical community and 
Mom/Dad Evans was/is (? do we know if they're dead--because the Dursleys' 
are Harry's "only" relatives?) it only makes sense that a witch/wizard or 
two would be at Petunia's wedding -- maybe that's when Vernon met 
Dumbeldore.
Hehe, maybe Dumbledore gave Vernon socks for a wedding gift (the crackpot:) 
-- the same socks Vernon and Petunia pawned off on Harry for a birthday 
present in PS/SS; that Harry used to muffle the sneakerscope in PA. :)
a.
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From relliott at jvlnet.com  Tue Mar 20 23:12:58 2001
From: relliott at jvlnet.com (Rachelle Elliott)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:12:58 -0600
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil 
References: <985126853.901.6842.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c0b193$4eb27140$80b191d8@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14778

Has Draco done something to officially make hime evil?  Yes, he has learned
to be somewhat of a jerk from his father.  But, that does not mean that he
wont see the error of his ways.  Children can come from questionable homes
everyday and still can turn out ok.  How many times have various characters
stated that people "deserve second chances."  I feel there is hope for
Malfoy.  He is only in 9th grade.  He comming to the age in which he can and
will start to think on his own.  James Potter had a distaste for Snape but
he still saved his life.  When Crookshanks starts hissing directly at Malfoy
then, I will be convinced.




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 23:27:51 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:27:51 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vernon knowing Dumbledore and a question
References: <F30AMfKQu1bCdUg07MJ00005e91@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001301c0b197$362757e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14779

jennifer.k at lycos.com wrote:

> >   "Im not paying for some crackpot old fool to teach him magic
> >tricks!"
> >
> >These are Vernons words in the beginning of Philosophers Stone. How
> >much does this tell abut his doings with Dumbledore? That he has, in
> >fact, met him?

I think you might be reading into that too much.  Vernon's sitting in the
middle of a hut in a large rock out to sea.  He has pretty much flipped at
this point, driving all over Britain to escape *letters*.  He's cold, angry,
hungry, and now some huge man with a pink umbrella has just appeared out of
nowhere to tell him his nephew is going to have to go off to learn magic,
only the one thing he hates most.
Vernon doesn't seem to know much about magic other than what Petunia has
told him about her sister.  I really doubt that he would have ever willingly
been in any situation where he might have had to interact with
those...those...wizards!  ::gasp!::  He's frightened and mad, and he lashes
out.  I don't think "crackpot old fool" is a reflection on any single
person, I think that's Vernon's prejudices talking.

A. Green wrote:
**it only makes sense that a witch/wizard or two would be at Petunia's
wedding -- maybe that's when Vernon met Dumbeldore.**

No to poke holes in your theory, but I do ask you to imagine that situation.
Considering the depth and intensity of Petunia's and Vernon's prejudice, I
sincerely doubt that anyone from the wizarding world present at that wedding
would be "out of the closet" (to borrow a term).  I always interpreted the
relationship between Petunia and Lily as a complete lack thereof -- Petunia
is most definately the type to cut off a relationship completely.

I really can't see either Dursley having any contact with witches/wizards.
To be honest, I think their minds are too small to handle such things..I
mean, c'mon, if you got a letter from Hogwarts, would you drive halfway
across Britian to avoid it?  <vbg>

Question for whoever is involved in the meeting I heard mention of in New
York -- is that city?  Could someone let me know what was going on with
that?  I'm at school in Binghamton and would get a kick out of meeting some
of you, if I could.  thanks...

Abbie
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do
here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


----- Original Message -----
From: A. Green <aprilgc at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 20 March, 2001 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Vernon knowing Dumbledore


> >From: jennifer.k at lycos.com
>
> >   "Im not paying for some crackpot old fool to teach him magic
> >tricks!"
> >
> >These are Vernons words in the beginning of Philosophers Stone. How
> >much does this tell abut his doings with Dumbledore? That he has, in
> >fact, met him? How would he know that Dumbledore is, in fact, all
> >this - now, *I* do love Dumbledore... - but if I was a less tolerant
> >person, I might find him being the things mentioned. I hardly think
> >the information in the letter that came along with harry gave away
> >information about Dumbledores characterstics - at least not about his
> >age?
> >
> >  Of course, it could be Petunia who has told him - then she would be
> >the one to know quite a lot about the wizarding world. But is it Lily
> >who has talk to her about Dumbledore in terms like
> >these? ..."crackpot old fool"? In a very humourus way, maybe - but
> >no, did the have such a relationship? I have to doubt it a bit...
> >
> >...what do you think?
> >
> >/Jennifer
>
> Here's me popping in with my Squib theory again (am I spelling that
right?).
>   I won't bore you with the whole (long) message again (see 14665 if
you're
> interested), but if (great?) Gram/Gramps were of the magical community and
> Mom/Dad Evans was/is (? do we know if they're dead--because the Dursleys'
> are Harry's "only" relatives?) it only makes sense that a witch/wizard or
> two would be at Petunia's wedding -- maybe that's when Vernon met
> Dumbeldore.
> Hehe, maybe Dumbledore gave Vernon socks for a wedding gift (the
crackpot:)
> -- the same socks Vernon and Petunia pawned off on Harry for a birthday
> present in PS/SS; that Harry used to muffle the sneakerscope in PA. :)
> a.
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


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From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 20 23:35:39 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:35:39 -0600
Subject: Why didn't Harry get an award?
References: <98r1qc+f5nn@eGroups.com> <3AB10FF3.D3BE55C5@swbell.net> <00c001c0adfc$7a40ba00$29f9e83f@rena> <004f01c0ae2e$7fead940$6014a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3AB7E94B.F80D091B@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14780

Hi --

I'm a bit late in responding to some substantive posts but better late
than never ...

> I said: He and Ron were both awarded Special Awards for Services to
> the
> School & 200 points apiece.  Granted, I think Hermione should have
> gotten an award also but .... there you go.
>
> Doreen responded: I didn't really think that in this case, that
> Hermione earned a reward. I think she would have, had she made it past
> the basilisk's petrifying curse, but she did get stopped.  I agree
> that the real heroes of the day were Harry & Ron, but even then, Harry
> should have gotten more points than Ron did. Babysitting Lockhart
> doesn't quite equal battling Quirrel and Voldie.

But, Harry and Ron wouldn't have known it was a basilisk in the Chamber
if they hadn't found that book entry in her hand (btw, I agree
wholeheartedly with Pippin that ripping a page out of a book sounds very
un-Hermione-ish to me!).  They wouldn't have been prepared at all for
what was down there.  IMO, Hermione's role in the end result was
indispensable, and she deserved an award too.  Harry should have
received more points than either Hermione or Ron ... but I would say
that Hermione deserved points & an award.  :--)

Penny
(still Defender of Hermione)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 20 23:56:19 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:56:19 -0600
Subject: Sirius Black
References: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKIEGKCAAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <3AB7EE23.CB6A981D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14781

Hi --

I'm long overdue responding to some substantive HP posts ... have a
small bit of time on my hands and a desire to clean out my HP folder so
.... here goes:

Monika Huebner wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Morsus Crustum [mailto:slytherin_daughter at hotmail.com]
>
> > Sirius Black strikes me as a very good man, but a very irresponsible
> one. > *dodges tomatoes* Face it. He was a Marauder. I don't think
> that James could have succeeded at single parenting. In short: Sirius
> is great, but I doubt fatherhood would sit well with him.
>
> We are no longer talking about the 16year old boy who played a
> rather dangerous prank on Snape but about a man of about 40 (no, I
> don't
> believe that James and Lily died at 21) who has had a rather
> unpleasant
> adult life that has certainly left its traces. The carefree Marauder
> is long since gone, and I cannot subscribe to the theory that he is a
> very irresponsible man. His whole behavior in GoF showed me the
> contrary <snip> ....and the advices he gives Harry look like those of
> a responsible parent to me.

I think it's also important to note what he has to say about Barty
Crouch Sr. when he talks to the Trio in the cave near Hogsmeade (Ch
27).  You can tell from his remarks that he clearly has a good idea of
what a responsible caring father does and does not do.  He has some very
sharp comments to make about Barty Sr.'s parenting skills.  These
remarks, coupled with his protectiveness of Harry, advice to Harry and
general attitude, lead me to conclude that he would make an excellent
parent.  He is most definitely not the same irresponsible teenager that
he once was.

Marianne wrote:

> One other note re: appearance.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've
> gone back through PoA (US edition) and not once is there a clear
> statement regarding Sirius' hair or eye color,
>
His hair is black -- long matted black hair (I think this is when the
television report is on at the Dursleys but I could be mistaken).  His
hair is definitely black though -- it's somewhere in PoA (and probably
GoF too).  And, since JKR has said that Sirius was intended to be "dead
sexy," it supports my theory that she definitely has a "thing" for men
with black hair (James, Harry, Hagrid, Snape, Sirius ....).  :--)

Long overdue in responding to some of this -- sorry guys!

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 00:14:04 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:14:04 -0000
Subject: Vernon knowing Dumbledore 
In-Reply-To: <001301c0b197$362757e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <998roc+shdj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14782

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Starling" <starling823 at y...> wrote:
> jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> 
> > >   "I??m not paying for some crackpot old fool to teach him magic
> > >tricks!"
> > >
> > >These are Vernons words in the beginning of Philosophers Stone. 
How
> > >much does this tell abut his doings with Dumbledore? That he 
has, in
> > >fact, met him?
> 
> I think you might be reading into that too much.  Vernon's sitting 
in the
> middle of a hut in a large rock out to sea.  He has pretty much 
flipped at
> this point, driving all over Britain to escape *letters*.  He's 
cold, angry,
> hungry, and now some huge man with a pink umbrella has just 
appeared out of
> nowhere to tell him his nephew is going to have to go off to learn 
magic,
> only the one thing he hates most.
> Vernon doesn't seem to know much about magic other than what 
Petunia has
> told him about her sister.  I really doubt that he would have ever 
willingly
> been in any situation where he might have had to interact with
> those...those...wizards!  ::gasp!::  He's frightened and mad, and 
he lashes
> out.  I don't think "crackpot old fool" is a reflection on any 
single
> person, I think that's Vernon's prejudices talking.
> 

lots cut out, obviously...

Remmember in Ch. 1, Book 1. Dumbledore wrote a letter to Vernon 
explaining "everything." That's a lot for a muggle to swallow! I 
imagine that Vernon, muggle-y as he is, decided it was all poppycock -
 and that therefore, he who wrote it was a crackpot old fool.

Heather M., still jet-lagged upon her return from England, and yes, 
she DID visit King's Cross but was quite disappointed.




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 00:22:38 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:22:38 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <997gl2+g00q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <998s8e+ifqj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14783

> Also, every DADA teacher (so far) has been male.

But she's said that there WILL be a female one.
 
> I sympathize with JKR, who bristled a little at the suggestion that 
> she doesn't have enough women/girls, because, as she said, there 
are 
> other characters to come, but for her to say the staff is 50/50 is 
a 
> bit beside the point.  Look at the most important characters, 
amongst 
> students, staff, and elsewhere; they are almost all male.  Going by 
> pure screen time, Hogwarts is a man's world.  Trelawney helped 
right 
> the balance, as did Rita, but please--these are our female role 
> models?  (Maybe Trelawney will be redeemed when we learn about the 
1st 
> True Prophecy.)

Oh dear. I have to drag the soapbox out for this. I think people make 
far, far too much of this, and they also don't appreciate the really 
neat female characters we have already.

McGonagall is a very strong woman, and quite a good role model, I 
think. She's a bit strict, but a good role model. Sprout -- though 
she doesn't get much ink -- is a bit warmer. And Hermione is a strong 
woman in her own right -- she's really indispensible to Ron and 
Harry, they wouldn't get very far without her and her trips to the 
library. I always get a bit ticked every time I run across some 
newspaper article: "No strong female characters in Harry Potter . . . 
All Hermione's good at is school . . . Blah blah blah."

Well, excuse me. About all I'm good at is school, too. Does this mean 
that if I'm not a straight A student AND a basketball all star, I 
can't be a strong woman? I hate the implications of that kind of 
article. Also, women ARE shown to be good at both sports and school. 
Of the Quidditch teams, only Slytherin has no girls (as JKR 
specifically pointed out in CoS).

*sigh* I'm sure this has been done to death, but I just had to say it.

Stacy (getting off her soapbox now)




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Wed Mar 21 00:54:22 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:54:22 -0000
Subject: Stouffer Book Release Date
Message-ID: <998u3u+njpm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14784

According to Inside Edition, which had an interview with "that 
Stouffer woman" tonight, her books will be released on May 1st.  In 
case anyone wants to peruse them and see if her complaints are 
relevant or grounded.  

Trina, who thinks the HP universe is filled with plenty of strong 
women.  


"HAVE YOU GONE MAD?" Ron bellowed. "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?"
Harry Potter & the Sorcerer's Stone.




From ender_w at msn.com  Wed Mar 21 01:09:14 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:09:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gender balance
References: <997gl2+g00q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000701c0b1a3$8d594f80$50eb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 14785


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amy Z 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 6:58 AM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Foreshadowings - Gender balance - Snape

  >>I sympathize with JKR, who bristled a little at the suggestion that 
  >>she doesn't have enough women/girls, because, as she said, there are 
  >>other characters to come, but for her to say the staff is 50/50 is a 
  >>bit beside the point.  Look at the most important characters, amongst 
  >>students, staff, and elsewhere; they are almost all male.  Going by 
  >>pure screen time, Hogwarts is a man's world.  Trelawney helped right 
  >>the balance, as did Rita, but please--these are our female role 
  >>models?  (Maybe Trelawney will be redeemed when we learn about the 1st 
  >>True Prophecy.)

  I don't want to start the debate on whether or not there are strong female characters in Harry Potter, but this topic did bring to mind a question that has been on my mind for a while and I'd like to see what y'all think: Do you think that the Harry Potter series would have become as popular as it is if Harry had been a girl? (with a different name of course).

  ender




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 01:51:41 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:51:41 -0000
Subject: Gender balance
In-Reply-To: <000701c0b1a3$8d594f80$50eb183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <9991fd+artf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14786

>   I don't want to start the debate on whether or not there are 
strong female characters in Harry Potter, but this topic did bring to 
mind a question that has been on my mind for a while and I'd like to 
see what y'all think: Do you think that the Harry Potter series would 
have become as popular as it is if Harry had been a girl? (with a 
different name of course).
> 
>   ender

Hmm . . . interesting question. Harry is so very firmly male in my 
mind, it's hard for me to picture the books with a girl in his role.

I'd have to say no, though. By and large, I think girls are more 
willing to read books about boys than boys are to read books about 
girls.

Stacy




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 21 02:02:56 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:02:56 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Protective Barriers (also Hagrid, Dumbledore, Snape)
In-Reply-To: <998ilf+kpvj@eGroups.com>
References: <F168keS8YkdavN3qljW00005d97@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010320175927.032f7e60@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14787

At 09:38 PM 3/20/01 +0000, eccleston at clara.co.uk wrote:
>I'm sure there's a reference (?Hagrid) saying that Dumbledore was
>offered the Ministry of Magic, but turned it down 'cos he liked
>Hogworts too much

Dumbledore's too honest to be in politics.  :)




                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 21 02:15:51 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 18:15:51 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't Harry get an award?
In-Reply-To: <3AB7E94B.F80D091B@swbell.net>
References: <98r1qc+f5nn@eGroups.com> <3AB10FF3.D3BE55C5@swbell.net> <00c001c0adfc$7a40ba00$29f9e83f@rena> <004f01c0ae2e$7fead940$6014a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010320180922.034ff9e0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14788

At 05:35 PM 3/20/01 -0600, Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
>(btw, I agree
>wholeheartedly with Pippin that ripping a page out of a book sounds very
>un-Hermione-ish to me!).

I just happened to think of a possible explanation: When Hermione was
looking in the book, she performed a basic Regeneration Charm that allowed
her to tear out what she needed, but the severed page restored itself, leaving
the book none the worse for wear.  This Regeneration Charm is what Wizards
have instead of Xerox machines.



                                                 -- Dave




From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 21 02:34:32 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:34:32 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Protective Barriers (also Hagrid,  Dumbledore, Snape)
References: <F168keS8YkdavN3qljW00005d97@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AB81338.BCDFD2E9@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14789

Rachel Brantley wrote:

> Lupin, Sirius, Pettigrew, & others and their houses:
>       I think that sorting hat knows more about a person than we
> think. Although a person may be led astray, ie. Wormtail, their true
> self is a Griffindor, etc. This could explain how Pettigrew could be a
> Griffindor and worship
> Voldemort.

I agree, for it also explains how Hermione could be a Gryffindor and
still be the smartest in the year.

> Snape and the DADA rumor:
>       First I think that just Snape being a former DE could have
> spread the rumor among the student body.

I don't think they know. I don't think it's common knowledge. The amount
that Ron and the other kids *don't* know about the Voldemort years has
been cause for speculation. I don't get the impression they were filled
in in any kind of detail; more like their parents wanted to forget and
didn't talk about it much.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 03:47:01 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:47:01 -0000
Subject: House elves; religion
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC07A3@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <99987l+qprg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14790

Gwen wrote (along with all quotes herein):
"I agree with Suzanne, here, and I'd also like to go one step further
(quoting my own fanfic, the epitome of cheek). I had to deal with the
implications of house-elves in my story, and I decided that, not only 
do they feel it is their privilege to work for humans, they actually 
_derive their powers_ from doing so."

--So these beings, as according to FB they aren't beasts, are capable 
of human thoughts and emotions, and also have the ability to do 
strong magic (well I assume so since Dobby can keep Lucius Malfoy at 
bay) and do it without a wand, but cannot do that magic if it is not 
for the greater purpose of serving their master? That's interesting. 
Does this perhaps mean that the House Elves once did something to 
indebt themselves to wizards, thereby being bound to them and gaining 
their magic from service to the wizards (or something like that) but 
wizards, being humans, took advantage of this and trained the House 
Elves to be mindless slaves. Hmmm....

"It's my belief that Dobby is a visionary among house-elves. His 
presence at Hogwarts will create a slow realization among the others 
that there are more equitable arrangements to be made than willing 
slavery. However, consider the implications to Hogwarts' fees if 
suddenly more than 100 personnel are added to the payroll! ;^)"

--Oh there's no question that Dobby is a visionary among his kind. 
Why it's Dobby who's befriended Harry Potter and come from the Malfoy 
Manor is another question alltogether. I'm not suprised if the HE's 
DON'T like their positions, but have convinced themselves of it to 
the point that they no longer care. It is easier to live in ignorance 
than to stand up for what's right. Especially if your cohorts don't 
agree. Dobby may very well have more followers than he knows but they 
are afraid to stand up and say so.

"The lesson Hermione is learning here is that social reform takes 
time to get rolling, but that the actions of a few may begin a 
movement. However, it's not her place to force it to happen. She 
needs to reason with them, not mandate that they "should" feel one 
way or another. I think there is an intrinsic value to the house-elf 
to be employed, especially if his powers derive directly from that 
state of occupation. As long as the fear of losing their powers--and 
maybe their existence--is greater than their discomfort in servitude, 
the majority of house-elves will not change their position."

--Hermione's heart was in the right place, but she didn't go about it 
in the right way. Undirected passion can be worse as apathy. 
Obviously she can't 'tell' them what to believe, even though that was 
her plan of action in GoF. I think that as Hermione continually 
matures in future books she'll see that change can't be forced or 
rushed.  She's recognised the problem and as I think someone said, 
that is the first step to solving it.  And she has got Dobby on her 
side...

"I would think that the kitchens receive instructions about providing 
kosher meals for Jewish students, pork-free dishes for Muslims, 
vegetarian meals, etc. Rowling hasn't focused on this in the books 
because none of these special restrictions apply to our terrific 
trio."

--As a vegetarian myself I would imagine so, but Kosher meals would 
be a little more difficult. I'm not sure about keeping Kosher, 
because this has to do more with the way food is prepared, and well 
we've been to the kitchens and they don't seem to be laid out for 
Kosher cooking. I'm not sure about the typical college or uni but 
most camps I've gone to applied for can have commercially prepared 
Kosher meals available.  Maybe the magic somehow equals it out. If 
anyone is really interested in keeping Kosher at Hogwarts then you 
might want to search the archives. I had the idea that Hermione was 
Jewish and we discussed this... 

"Even the Dursleys, who are our quintessential example of Muggles 
gone too far, exhibit no evidence of a devoutly religious 
participation. I believe this is a side-effect of the secularization 
of society, not a conscious decision to be atheistic on
Rowling's part.  Hope that makes some sense."

--I think someone has mentioned this before, but if JKR WAS trying to 
send out an anti-christian message as some say then why didn't she 
make the Dursely's out to be particularly pious. No I think it was 
more a conscience decision to AVOID controversy that arises from 
favouring one religion over another....The story wouldn't really 
change if Harry et al were a certain religion. All it would do is 
offend some close minded people. I think she wisely made the best 
decision.

Scott 




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 04:08:05 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 04:08:05 -0000
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil
In-Reply-To: <000e01c0b193$4eb27140$80b191d8@computer>
Message-ID: <9999f5+j8if@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14791

Rachelle Elliott wrote:
"Has Draco done something to officially make hime evil?  Yes, he has 
learned to be somewhat of a jerk from his father.  But, that does not 
mean that he wont see the error of his ways.  Children can come from 
questionable homes everyday and still can turn out ok.  How many 
times have various characters stated that people "deserve second 
chances."  I feel there is hope for Malfoy.  He is only in 9th 
grade.  He comming to the age in which he can and will start to think 
on his own.  James Potter had a distaste for Snape but he still saved 
his life.  When Crookshanks starts hissing directly at Malfoy
then, I will be convinced."

--I'd be really disappointed if Jo didn't develop Draco as anything 
more than a sniveling little bigot who is exactly like his father. I 
sincerely hope that he comes to the right side, even though I'm sure 
he'll never be soft or mushy...not to mention all those pairs of 
leather trousers he's got in his closet!

Sirusly :0) though I don't know whether the views we've seen from 
Draco are simply his father's talking or his own. At his age there's 
plenty of time for him to change and re-evalute his own views if he 
so wishes. He's still being molded into the person he'll become, and 
I think there's hope yet. (It might just be Fanfiction talking, but I 
hope not!)

Scott




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 04:16:07 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 04:16:07 -0000
Subject: Gender balance
In-Reply-To: <000701c0b1a3$8d594f80$50eb183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <9999u7+559f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14792

Ender posed the question:
"I don't want to start the debate on whether or not there are strong 
female characters in Harry Potter, but this topic did bring to mind a 
question that has been on my mind for a while and I'd like to see 
what y'all think: Do you think that the Harry Potter series would 
have become as popular as it is if Harry had been a girl? (with a 
different name of course)."

--I don't know. I think that I would have still read the books 
despite the gender of the protagonist. As I'd guess most of us would 
have, but little kids? I doubt it. I can't see most little boys 
reading a book about Harrieta Potter.

Jo's been asked this question before and I believe she said 
(paraphrase) "By the time I stopped to think why Harry wasn't a girl 
I realised that he was already too real to me and if I'd changed him 
he'd always have been in drag." 

(That was a REALLY rough paraphrase...)

Scott




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 04:21:13 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 04:21:13 -0000
Subject: Philosopher^Sorcerer ??..hmm
In-Reply-To: <019e01c0b184$8c8e2860$8914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <999a7p+7uo6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14793

Doreen wrote:
"Q Does it bother you that in America they changed the names of your 
books? JKR They changed the first title, but with my consent to be 
honest. I wish I hadn't agreed now but it was my first book, and I 
was so grateful that anyone was publishing me I wanted to keep them 
happy."

--I for one don't like it one bit that the title was changed,and in 
hindsight it seems JKR isn't to happy about it either. However I 
think we can all understand her situation. She wanted to published so 
badly and she was new to the business so she agreed. Besides I think 
now she'd rather have lost a few readers and kept the original title. 

I'll put it this way I doubt she'd have done it if it hadn't been the 
first book....

Scott




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 04:22:32 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 04:22:32 -0000
Subject: House Elves & Hermione
In-Reply-To: <998iag+o450@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <999aa8+lqii@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14794

We all see the story through our own lenses, and 
> anti-racism is a lens I try to use a lot.  When Amos Diggory 
> says "Elf!" with that terrible disdain, I hear echoes of white men 
> calling black men "Boy!" just because they can.
> 
> Amy Z

The more I think about it, the more I think Amy is right.

(Mercedes Lackey does something similar in her books...is it the 
Hertasi who serve humans, unobtrusively doing laundry, cooking, etc.?
It's nice to fantasize about that kind of personal service and not 
feel guilty).

I think Rowlings IS making analogies to how we treat other people 
when she discusses the treatment of House Elves. The mudblood, 
pureblood issue is just one of the issues she brings up in the book. 
There's the issue about Giants. After all, they are not "human" 
either. Is it okay the way Hagrid was treated?
After all, he's not human any more than Winky is..he's half Giant.
Then there's Lupin..look at the prejudice against him..he's a 
werewolf, and quite dangerous, really.

Susan


The scene with Winky in the GoF is horrible. I wouldn't treat a dog 
or a cat the way Amos Diggory treats the House Elf. 

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 04:28:12 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 04:28:12 -0000
Subject: House Elves and Inherent Tendencies
In-Reply-To: <998ji7+c5tv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <999aks+512p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14795

> 
> I have trouble with 'inherent' because of the powerful magic house 
> elves possess.  It seems silly to give a creature/being such powers 
> and then disallow them from using their gifts.  It's rather 
limiting 
> to say you can only use your abilities when someone else tells you 
> to.  I would agree that they may be innately docile, but have 
trouble 
> believing that a natural power of an independent-thinking and 
> intelligent being should be suppressed by someone else.  Even 
though 
> Winky was a servant to Crouch, she still did make her own 
decisions, 


I have trouble with innately docile, too....that is something that 
has been said about human slaves...

I do agree that the House Elves are independent thinkers DESPITE THE 
FACT THAT THEY ARE ENSLAVED. Look at what Dobby does....coming to 
Harry, trying to warn him, and at the end of CoS, letting him know 
how Lucius Malfoy entrapped Ginny Weasley.

Winky advocated for Barty, Junior pleading with Barty, Senior to 
allow Junior some fresh air and a chance to see a Quidditch match.

I think that the whole Elves saga will unfold wonderfully in the next 
books.

Susan




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar 21 04:26:52 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:26:52 -0500
Subject: Stouffer Woman?
Message-ID: <MABBJHGODKMAPNGJPPHEGECMCBAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14796

I haven't heard of this person mainly because my boys keep me busy with
school projects. So could someone explain who she is and why she is doing
what she is to our favorite author of our favorite books? Thank you, from
witchwanda2002.




From morsethanatos at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 05:14:57 2001
From: morsethanatos at yahoo.com (morsethanatos at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 05:14:57 -0000
Subject: Three Broomstick/Hogshead and other mysteries. 
Message-ID: <999dch+pj4r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14797

Hello, 
I came to this group from a link at "The Harry Potter Lexicon," about 
3 days ago.  I wanted to see what others think of the 
several "mistakes" that I have found, I apologize if any of the 
below " have been previously discussed. 


In Defense against Darks arts, Harry says he had the Imperious curse 
on him four times, not counting the very first. But then later, when 
Voldemort uses it: " For the THIRD time in his life, that feeling of 
unconcern drifted over him."  
	Something is amiss here, though there is a number of mistakes 
dealing with numbers. 

In the first book Hagrid says that he won a dragons egg in the 
Hogshead, the pub in the village.  In later books the pub is called 
the Three Broomsticks, and the village is Hogsmeade.
	 I am surprised that almost no one noticed this, or am I 
clueless about something?

In the 1st book, it was said that Marcaus Flint was a sixth year, but 
he was still in Hogwarts when Harry was a third year, that would put 
him in the Eighth Year.  
	
In the first book, at the Sorting Ceremony, Nearly Headless Nick said 
that he has not eaten for almost 400 years, but in the second book, 
Nearly Headless Nick is having his 500th death day party. 
On page 13 of Book 1 Professor Dumbledore sits down beside the cat 
and says "Fancy seeing you here, Professor McGonagall." She 
replys: "How did you know it was me?"
	This is a bit strange as she is a registered animagus. 




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 05:24:54 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 05:24:54 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <998s8e+ifqj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <999dv6+j3m3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14798

Please see my post number 3493.

I was trashed before, and I will be trashed again, but I 
stand by my previous comments.

Susan




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 05:40:48 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 05:40:48 -0000
Subject: D-day, was Re: Harry's Protective Barriers
In-Reply-To: <015901c0b17c$1cc04e80$8914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <999et0+usa9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14799

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
in response to what Joywitch M. Curmudgeon previously wrote: 
>> Unfortunately, there are casualities in any war and very
>> unfortunately Dumbledore seems to me to be Most Likely to Perish.  
I
>> am preparing myself for a good cry when it happens; I just love the
>> barmy old codger.
> 
>> Of course, this is all pure speculation.  My predictions for what
>> would happen in GoF were totally wrong.

> 
> What if the hero of the day and the real casualty is Severus Snape? 
Then we
> will all be struck by a bad case of the guilts for having misjudged 
and
> maligned him for all these years. You know, I never liked snakes 
and thought
> they looked slimey until I picked one up. The skin felt cool and 
smooth to
> the touch. It was fascinating how the snake curled itself around 
and around
> my arm. I was surprised how strong it was for such a small 
creature... and
> how very unafraid it was. hmmmmmmmmmm
> 
> Doreen who thinks Snape, like snakes, grows on you when you least 
expect it

I was with you, Doreen, until the part about "how the snake curled 
itself around and around my arm"  Yech.  Eewy.  My arm itches just 
thinking about it. You are going to have to come up with a better 
analogy if you want to convince me of Snapes nobility.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 06:01:50 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:01:50 -0000
Subject: Three Broomstick/Hogshead and other mysteries.
In-Reply-To: <999dch+pj4r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <999g4e+l5uo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14800

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morsethanatos at y... wrote:
> Hello, 
> I came to this group from a link at "The Harry Potter Lexicon," 
about 
> 3 days ago.  I wanted to see what others think of the 
> several "mistakes" that I have found, I apologize if any of the 
> below " have been previously discussed. 
> 
> 
> In Defense against Darks arts, Harry says he had the Imperious 
curse 
> on him four times, not counting the very first. But then later, 
when 
> Voldemort uses it: " For the THIRD time in his life, that feeling 
of 
> unconcern drifted over him."  
> 	Something is amiss here, though there is a number of mistakes 
> dealing with numbers. 

This has been discussed on this group; you might want to do a search
on "Imperious Curse" to find this discussion.
> 
> In the first book Hagrid says that he won a dragons egg in the 
> Hogshead, the pub in the village.  In later books the pub is called 
> the Three Broomsticks, and the village is Hogsmeade.
> 	 I am surprised that almost no one noticed this, or am I 
> clueless about something?

We have also discussed this, IIFC,we concluded that there are 2 pubs 
in Hogsmeade, Three Broomsticks and Hogshead.

> 
> In the 1st book, it was said that Marcaus Flint was a sixth year, 
but 
> he was still in Hogwarts when Harry was a third year, that would 
put 
> him in the Eighth Year.  

JKR was asked about this in an interview and she said that Flint had 
to repeat a year.  He was "left back" as we say in the U.S.

> 	
> In the first book, at the Sorting Ceremony, Nearly Headless Nick 
said 
> that he has not eaten for almost 400 years, but in the second book, 
> Nearly Headless Nick is having his 500th death day party.

Yep, we have discussed this too.  It sure sounds like an error.  
Personally I think JKRs math skils are a little weak.  THere are lots 
of errors having to do with numbers.
 
> On page 13 of Book 1 Professor Dumbledore sits down beside the cat 
> and says "Fancy seeing you here, Professor McGonagall." She 
> replys: "How did you know it was me?"
> 	This is a bit strange as she is a registered animagus.

Remember, this occurs when Harry is a baby.  Maybe that is around the 
time McGonagall becomes an animagus.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From vderark at bccs.org  Wed Mar 21 06:04:20 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:04:20 -0000
Subject: Three Broomstick/Hogshead and other mysteries.
In-Reply-To: <999dch+pj4r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <999g94+54op@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14801

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morsethanatos at y... wrote:
> Hello, 
> I came to this group from a link at "The Harry Potter Lexicon," 
about 
> 3 days ago.  I wanted to see what others think of the 


Welcome! And I am delighted that a link on the Lexicon brought you 
here!


> 
> In the first book Hagrid says that he won a dragons egg in the 
> Hogshead, the pub in the village.  In later books the pub is called 
> the Three Broomsticks, and the village is Hogsmeade.
> 	 I am surprised that almost no one noticed this, or am I 
> clueless about something?

There are two pubs in the village. The Three Broomsticks is a bit 
more "family-friendly" than the Hog's Head. Students hang out at the 
Three Broomsticks. The Hog's Head is apparently a bit rougher, from 
Hagrid's description ("...yeh get a lot o' funny folk in the Hog's 
Head..."). Hagrid calls it "the pub in the village," but very likely 
he doesn't think of the Three Broomsticks as a pub, in the serious 
drinking sense that he means it. The Three Broomsticks would be a 
restaurant to him. In fact, it's called an "inn" in PA.


> 
> In the 1st book, it was said that Marcaus Flint was a sixth year, 
but 
> he was still in Hogwarts when Harry was a third year, that would 
put 
> him in the Eighth Year.  

JKR has stated that he had to repeat a year. She has also ackowledged 
that in actuality, she just slipped up. I'm thinking that she should 
let some of us read her manuscript for book 5 ahead of time...we 
would be happy to catch those kinds of things for her :)

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
which has a lovely page about Hogsmeade, including the 2 pubs
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon







From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 06:10:46 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:10:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: a cure for werewolfs?/ I'm new
References: <998ic6+7av@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009501c0b1cd$ac421d80$5914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14802

 In PoA, Lupin said "My parents tried everything, but in those days
> there was no cure." (p. 258) Presumably this means that there is a
> cure nowadays, but you have to perform the charm or whatever it
takes
> rather soon after you have been bitten. Otherwise I think that
> Dumbledore would have seen to that Lupin would have been cured,
since
> he is such an excellent teacher.

I read it as simply referring to Snapes Wolfsbane potiion, which
minimises the effects. ie still a werewolf, but keeps his mind.

I agree that Lupin is a really engaging character, but I can't help
but feel a bit worried for him in future books, given what JKR did to
poor old Cedric Diggory.
______________
I think you are right. I think that Snape's potion is the best that can be
done for a werewolf at this time. Surely, if there were a better potion,
Snape would know about it, or Dumbledore, given his history in alchemy.

I don't think that Lupin will get killed off before book seven. I think he
will have an important part in the destruction of Voldie.

Doreen





From john at walton.to  Wed Mar 21 06:51:10 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:51:10 +0000
Subject: GoF MP3s come with new Apple PowerBook
Message-ID: <B6DDFFDE.EDE1%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 14803

Guess what? A friend who recently bought a new Apple Titanium G4 PowerBook
(::drool::) emailed to say that Chapters 1-3 of the Jim Dale reading are
preloaded on Apple's iTunes program (it's a MP3/CD/ripper/general music
wunderbar-thing). So go spend the 2-3 grand ($) that it costs to buy one!

::grin::

--John
____________________________________________

"Wow! They've got the internet on computers now!"
    -- Homer Simpson

John Walton -- john at walton.to
____________________________________________




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 06:56:44 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen Rich)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:56:44 -0000
Subject: D-day, was Re: Harry's Protective Barriers
In-Reply-To: <998794+dmea@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <999jbc+p1l4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14804

In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
I think Harry is being groomed to take his place beside some very 
strong forces in the fight against Voldemort. My idea for the ending 
of Book Seven (corrected from Five) is that no one person will defeat 
Voldemort. I think it will be a battle royal, with the best of each 
group defeating V's best attempts. 

I would like to expound on my own theory a bit, since I have been 
thinking of this ever since I posted it and then had to go to work. 
It was quite distracting ...

I wonder why Harry was so special, but I think Dumbledore knows. 

I do not think it was a coincidence that AD had Hagrid pick up the 
P/S Stone from Grigotts the same day that he and Harry withdrew 
Harry's money. Had Hagrid not been trying for days to get one of the 
letters to Harry? Would it not seem likely, that while he was 
waiting, he could have popped into Gringotts & got the Stone? Or, 
Hagrid could have gone at any other time previous to picking up 
Harry ... unless it was meant to be a test.(Is Harry a wise enough 
wizard to figure out what Hagrid took from Gringotts and is Harry 
wise enough to figure out where it is hidden?)

Likewise, I do not think that it was an accident that Harry found the 
Mirror of Erised, or given the invisibility cloak, or that his 
ability to fly on a broom is only important for Quidditch.  

Somehow, I think that each of Harry's triumphs was guided along ... 
and met some "criteria"  which is necessary for the final defeat of 
Volemort.

In all of folklore, there is always some set method of destruction 
for the evil monsters of the tale. Vampires are killed only by 
driving a wooden stake through their heart, werewolves must be shot 
by a silver bullet, etc. 

I think there was some magical combination of elements from the  
start ... something that had to do with the very birth of Harry ... 
something that AD knows about and that Voldemort either knew or found 
out about via his spies. Perhaps the original plan was something that 
James & Lily were in on .. and that was why it was so crucial that 
Voldemort kill James ... and maybe he was not going to kill Lily 
because he was going to "use her" to raise Harry ... for his own 
purposes, rather than that purpose for which Harry was born. Maybe 
that is what Lily was really trying to protect Harry from ... and 
also why Voldemort stated that Lily didn't really have to die.

Now, that the plan has all gone amuck, and Harry has reached an age 
of reasoning and is against Voldemort, he is left with only one 
choice. Destroy Harry before Harry becomes old enough and strong 
enough to destroy him. And I still hold with the idea that it can not 
be "just Harry" who does this ... but a special combination of 
beings; but with Harry as the most crucial part of this force.

Comments?
Doreen 







From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 07:46:11 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:46:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't Harry get an award?
References: <98r1qc+f5nn@eGroups.com> <3AB10FF3.D3BE55C5@swbell.net> <00c001c0adfc$7a40ba00$29f9e83f@rena> <004f01c0ae2e$7fead940$6014a3d1@doreen> <3AB7E94B.F80D091B@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <00cf01c0b1db$00b83400$5914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14805

I'm a bit late in responding to some substantive posts but better late
than never ...

> I said: He and Ron were both awarded Special Awards for Services to
> the
> School & 200 points apiece.  Granted, I think Hermione should have
> gotten an award also but .... there you go.
>
> Doreen responded: I didn't really think that in this case, that
> Hermione earned a reward. I think she would have, had she made it past
> the basilisk's petrifying curse, but she did get stopped.  I agree
> that the real heroes of the day were Harry & Ron, but even then, Harry
> should have gotten more points than Ron did. Babysitting Lockhart
> doesn't quite equal battling Quirrel and Voldie.

But, Harry and Ron wouldn't have known it was a basilisk in the Chamber
if they hadn't found that book entry in her hand (btw, I agree
wholeheartedly with Pippin that ripping a page out of a book sounds very
un-Hermione-ish to me!).  They wouldn't have been prepared at all for
what was down there.  IMO, Hermione's role in the end result was
indispensable, and she deserved an award too.  Harry should have
received more points than either Hermione or Ron ... but I would say
that Hermione deserved points & an award.  :--)

Penny
(still Defender of Hermione)

Maybe nobody told AD about Hermione's part in the whole scheme of things. If
neither Harry nor Ron told that part of the story which included Hermione's
brain storming, then AD can not be expected to reward her.

Why did Hermione not complain about the lack of recognition?  I think that
the three of them are so close by now, that they all share in each of their
accomplishments, not caring who gets the social recognition or the credits.
As long as Gryffindor gets points, they all share a common pride, not caring
who of the three of them got what points.

Doreen






From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 07:52:47 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 01:52:47 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vernon knowing Dumbledore 
References: <998roc+shdj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d901c0b1db$ec5dd360$5914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14806

I am not paying for some crackpot old fool to teach him magic
> > >tricks!"
> > >
> > >These are Vernons words in the beginning of Philosophers Stone.
How
> > >much does this tell abut his doings with Dumbledore? That he
has, in
> > >fact, met him?

Is Vernon possibly reacting to a stereotype of wizard that the Muggle world
has formed? ie Old man, long gray beard & hair, long robe with big sleeves,
pointy hat & wand. Just as Muggles assume that all witches have long noses,
warts, and long skinny fingers with sharp nails, black robe, pointy black
hat.

Doreen




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 08:01:29 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 02:01:29 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gender balance If HP were a girl
References: <997gl2+g00q@eGroups.com> <000701c0b1a3$8d594f80$50eb183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <00e301c0b1dd$23823b00$5914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14807


  I don't want to start the debate on whether or not there are strong female
characters in Harry Potter, but this topic did bring to mind a question that
has been on my mind for a while and I'd like to see what y'all think: Do you
think that the Harry Potter series would have become as popular as it is if
Harry had been a girl? (with a different name of course).

  ender

If Harry Potter had been a girl, I do not think as many boys would have read
it. I think that either JKR said this or someone said it to her. Girls will
read anything. Boys tend to want a "he-man hero" or a hero that they can
identify with.

Girls do not have to identify with Harry ... they can be content to have a
crush on him or identify with Hermione or Ginny. This is not, IMO, a thing
that boys at this level would ever admit to, even if boiled in oil.

Doreen







From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 08:39:12 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 02:39:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves & Hermione
References: <999aa8+lqii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <010501c0b1e2$688d7480$5914a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14808

We all see the story through our own lenses, and
> anti-racism is a lens I try to use a lot.  When Amos Diggory
> says "Elf!" with that terrible disdain, I hear echoes of white men
> calling black men "Boy!" just because they can.
>
> Amy Z

The more I think about it, the more I think Amy is right.

(Mercedes Lackey does something similar in her books...is it the
Hertasi who serve humans, unobtrusively doing laundry, cooking, etc.?
It's nice to fantasize about that kind of personal service and not
feel guilty).

I think Rowlings IS making analogies to how we treat other people
when she discusses the treatment of House Elves. The mudblood,
pureblood issue is just one of the issues she brings up in the book.
There's the issue about Giants. After all, they are not "human"
either. Is it okay the way Hagrid was treated?
After all, he's not human any more than Winky is..he's half Giant.
Then there's Lupin..look at the prejudice against him..he's a
werewolf, and quite dangerous, really.

Susan


The scene with Winky in the GoF is horrible. I wouldn't treat a dog
or a cat the way Amos Diggory treats the House Elf.

Susan
* * * * * *
JKR states, in more than one interview, that she wrote the books for
herself. Perhaps she is writing about the mistreatment of one group of
people by another by recalling her own feelings. This was a single mother,
on welfare, who had been married to a man from another country. Was JKR
discriminated against? Did her husband's family treat her like an inferior?
Did the working class people make her feel unworthy?

Something or someone led her into a pit of depression, at some time, that
allowed her to create  the Dementors ... and then later compare the
Dementors to depression. They are some deep dark characters. I thought they
were scary enough without her comparison. When I read her analogy, it was as
if a light went on. I am no stranger to occasional bouts of depression,  and
the Dementors are the most accurate description of depression that I have
ever read. If the Dementors suck the happiness out of a place ... and that
is depression, perhaps the Dementor's Kiss ... is total despair.

Perhaps it was a feeling of worthlessness brought on by someone else's
prejudices, whether careless or intentional,  which caused her to address
prejudice and injustice  in so many interesting ways.

Just an idea
Doreen






From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 09:21:07 2001
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:21:07 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy, Etc.
In-Reply-To: <9960l8+udgs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <999rq3+ired@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14809

Several listees have posted comments about Arithmancy 
being "divination by numbers" or similar to numerology (sorry, lost 
track of individual names).

I'd just like to add that the title of Hermione's textbook (from PoA) 
is _Numerology and Grammatica_.
I've always wondered about the Grammatica part. I think that it has 
something to do with writing (language) and rules, but don't know 
what the non-Muggle meaning could be. Any thoughts?

Also, I wonder if anyone has tried to figure out the number and names 
of classes offered at Hogwarts. We know that both Percy and Barty Jr. 
have managed to get 12 OWLs, but when I tried to sum up the total 
number of classes  I also came up with 12 (Transfiguration, Charms, 
Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, Care for Magical Creatures, Potions, 
Astronomy, History of Magic, Muggle Studies, Herbology, DAAD, 
Divination). The only person who was taking all these at the same 
time was Hermione but she dropped two. That means there must be other 
classes that we know nothing about. Another possible is Flying 
Lessons, but I am curios to see if anyone has other suggestions.

Vlatka






From minerva at femgeeks.net  Wed Mar 21 10:11:01 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:11:01 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stouffer to be on ABC News
Message-ID: <F265sl3xbYiMCIqtQvA000056dd@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14810

<snip>
<<there is a character in her book called Nimbus who is some sort of sky god 
and then the Nimbus 2000 in HP.>>

Eh? I always thought that 'Nimbus' was a reference to a sort of clous. The 
Something Nimbus, a storm cloud, I think. Since it sounds Latin, I suspect 
it may well have been some sort of [lesser] god of clouds in the Roman 
panthenon, and it'd make sense to JKR to name a broomstick after him.

Sofie,
delurking with her 2 cents.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- What kind of psychopatic freak are you, anyway?
- Dear lord, what kind am I *allowed* to be?
(Conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From minerva at femgeeks.net  Wed Mar 21 10:31:12 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:31:12 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gender balance If HP were a girl
Message-ID: <F9368bxFIOmvHbp82xO000058b8@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14811

<<Girls will read anything. Boys tend to want a "he-man hero" or a hero that 
they can identify with.>>

Hm. I don't think so. I think the main reason so few boys read books with 
girl protagonists is the same as why *I* never really read them. They tend 
to be, well, ... boring. At least the ones that were available to me when I 
was young. Girl protagonists have a tendency to be goody-two-shoes whose 
biggest worry seemed to be to keep their parents together or help some poor, 
starving family or whatnot.

I wanted *action*, and apprently, books with action have male protagonists. 
I never had any trouble identifying with boys, but then, my brother never 
seemed to have any trouble identifying with the girls in my Babysitter's 
Club books.

My point being, if Harry had been female, I don't think it'd have made any 
difference, as long as she had the same adventures et al that Harry has.

Sofie

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- What kind of psychopatic freak are you, anyway?
- Dear lord, what kind am I *allowed* to be?
(Conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 11:01:34 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:01:34 -0000
Subject: Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <3AB7EE23.CB6A981D@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99a1me+b3c6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14812

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> I'm long overdue responding to some substantive HP posts ... have a
> small bit of time on my hands and a desire to clean out my HP 
folder so
> .... here goes:
> 
>snip
 
> Marianne wrote:
> 
> > One other note re: appearance.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've
> > gone back through PoA (US edition) and not once is there a clear
> > statement regarding Sirius' hair or eye color,
> >
> His hair is black -- long matted black hair (I think this is when 
the television report is on at the Dursleys but I could be 
mistaken).  
His hair is definitely black though -- it's somewhere in PoA (and 
probably GoF too).  And, since JKR has said that Sirius was intended 
to be "dead sexy," it supports my theory that she definitely has 
a "thing" for men with black hair (James, Harry, Hagrid, Snape, 
Sirius ....).  :--)
> 
> Long overdue in responding to some of this -- sorry guys!
> 
> Penny
> 
>Nope, the description given at the time of the TV report is "a 
matted, elbow-length tangle."  No mention of color. There is a 
definite mention of Sirius' hair being black in GoF, but my theory is 
that JKR deliberately didn't give us any overt descriptions in PoA, 
and figured we'd all make the right assumption that he's another of 
her black-haired guys.  A friend recently finished PoA and when I 
asked him to give me a description of Sirius, the first words out of 
his mouth were "He's got black hair."   

I think we all got the same mental image because the illustration on 
the title page shows a person with dark hair (even though we know 
that illustrations can be incorrect), the name Black, Harry's thought 
on the Knight Bus that Sirius looks like a vampire, the black dog, 
Flitwick's assertion in The Three Broomsticks that James and Sirius 
were like brothers, and that it is always night whenever Sirius makes 
an appearance.  Plus, for a good, long while we are lead to believe 
that Sirius is one of the baddies.  It all adds up to a dark 
appearance.  
> 
Marianne, who's getting way too obssessive about this...

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 11:04:58 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:04:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vernon knowing Dumbledore and a question
In-Reply-To: <001301c0b197$362757e0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <20010321110458.16877.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14813

>> **it only makes sense that a witch/wizard or two would be at
>>Petunia's wedding -- maybe that's when Vernon met Dumbeldore.**
> 
> No to poke holes in your theory, but I do ask you to imagine that
> situation.  Considering the depth and intensity of Petunia's and 
> Vernon's prejudice, I sincerely doubt that anyone from the 
> wizarding world present at that wedding
> would be "out of the closet" (to borrow a term).  

Remember in HPPS/SS, when Vernon saw wizards and witches in their
robes on his drive into the city to go to work and he thought they
were members of some strange group collecting money in public?  And
as they waited for Hagrid on Privet Drive, McGonegall commented to
Dumbledore that some w's and w's were getting careless and being seen
in public?

Vernon and Petunia hate magic because it's different and weird and
wouldn't fit into their neighbourhood.

__________________________________________________
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From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 21 11:12:00 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:12:00 -0000
Subject: Father figures (was Chapter 35 - more, and more and more)
In-Reply-To: <3AB535A5.33310CC5@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99a2a0+74dc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14814

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> Schlobin at a... wrote:
 
> > 1) What about the father-son relationships in HP/specifically in 
GofF
> > b) What about Harry's relationship with his father/father figures?
> > c) What about Harry and Dumbledore? Dumbledore is the Great 
Protector
> > of Harry, watching over him, throughout his life.
> > d)Then we have Sirius and Harry..Sirius is Harry's godfather, and
> > Harry has also begin to depend and trust him.

Speaking of father and son relationship, I think you've missed the 
most prominent one in the series: Snape/Dumbledore.  It's interesting 
because it contrasts with the relationship Harry has with 
Dumbledore.  (I don't buy the theory that Snape feels threaten by 
Harry's closeness to Dumbledore, mainly because the two relationships 
are entirely different matters.)
Snape/Dumbledore has a grown son and father relationship.  Dumbledore 
looked on with amusement (and exasperation) the way Snape acts but 
never 'order' him; he merely offers gentle advice, as an equal or an 
older, wiser man.  I think this is one of the most important 
relationship in the book and anxious to see how this would play out.  

> I had a weird thought. I think you must include Snape (and Lupin) 
in the
> father figure list.
<snip>

>Harry has several adult males in his life, who fulfill
> portions of the role of father. Dumbledore has the sense of power to
> him, someone who knows more, the source of answers and instruction.
> Sirius (and Lupin) are the companion, the person who comes to be 
your
> friend, too, as you mature. And Snape is the negative aspect. He's 
the
> one who doesn't understand, who sets curfews, who won't let you 
explain,
> the one you just *hate* and can't wait to move out of his house. I 
think
> together, these men are providing Harry with what he needs,
> emotionally---and you need the negative, as well as the positive. I
> doubt this is deliberate on their parts--I think it's just the way 
they
> each are--but I think this is how Harry's psyche is accepting them. 
He
> has not considered Snape a physical threat to him since the first 
book;
> he really reacts to him the way a boy does who does not get along 
with
> his father.
Yeah, the rebellious 'you just don't understand' teenage son and 
his 'you said you'll be back by 10, it's now 10:15' father.
I don't know whether this is deliberate but Snape's psyche, when 
intrepret broadly, does resemble a hot-tempered and interventionist 
father: He thinks he always knows best; he wants to dictate what 
Harry should do every single minute; he does not consider Harry 
capable of deciding what's best for himself and uses punishment to 
deter him; he does not suffer fool gladly (although I think this is 
just his character in general.)
 
> I think Harry has removed himself completely from any emotional
> connection with the Dursleys, so that Uncle Vernon doesn't even 
qualify
> for the negative father aspects. He's an adversary, plain and 
simple.
Agree completely.

> 
> --Amanda





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 11:26:16 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:26:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Father figures, Snape, Dumbledore and Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <99a2a0+74dc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010321112616.39520.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14815

> 1) What about the father-son relationships in HP/ 
> And Snape is the negative aspect. He's the one who doesn't 
> understand, who sets curfews, who won't let you explain,
> the one you just *hate* and can't wait to move out of his house.
> I don't know whether this is deliberate but Snape's psyche, when 
> intrepret broadly, does resemble a hot-tempered and interventionist
> father: He thinks he always knows best; he wants to dictate what 
> Harry should do every single minute; he does not consider Harry 
> capable of deciding what's best for himself and uses punishment to 
> deter him; he does not suffer fool gladly (although I think this is
> just his character in general.)

I agree with this; as Quirrell says to Harry at the end of PS/SS "He
never wanted you dead."  

Snape's total reliance on Dumbledore for approval comes out very
forcibly at the end of PoA when Dumbledore sends him out of the room
and before he goes he urgently asks if Dumbledore remembers what
happened in the past and D. reassures him that he does.  It's a
surprisingly touching moment.

Has anyone noticed how fanatical Snape is in his reverence for
Hogwarts?  Rules are everything. And he can come up with no worse
punishment for Harry - who he loathes - than expulsion from Hogwarts:
a fate he seems to regard as the equivalent of exile.

And how about another father figure relationship: Snape and Draco? 
What do they talk about when they're alone and Draco has finished
whining about Harry?

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From ender_w at msn.com  Wed Mar 21 12:16:03 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:16:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance
References: <9999u7+559f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001101c0b200$b38d4d20$55421e3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 14816


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:16 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance


  Ender posed the question:
  Do you think that the Harry Potter series would 
  have become as popular as it is if Harry had been a girl? (with a 
  different name of course)."

  --I don't know. I think that I would have still read the books 
  despite the gender of the protagonist. As I'd guess most of us would 
  have, but little kids? I doubt it. I can't see most little boys 
  reading a book about Harrieta Potter.

  Jo's been asked this question before and I believe she said 
  (paraphrase) "By the time I stopped to think why Harry wasn't a girl 
  I realised that he was already too real to me and if I'd changed him 
  he'd always have been in drag." 

  (That was a REALLY rough paraphrase...)

  Scott


  As an author, I can relate to that, my characters genders are usually the result of how they appear in my head, and relate to other characters and not the result of me saying "I want this many girls, and this many boys."  I do agree that, unfortunately, books and movies with female protagonists tend not to be as popular as those with male protagonists (I heard a rumor once that when they were going to remake Miracle on 34th Street, there were those who wanted the main character changed from a little girl to a little boy to make it more popular).
  However, Rowling has such a gift of wit, and such a gift of writing, that I wonder if she might have had the ability to make a female "Harry" just as engaging as the male one.

  ender


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From pbnesbit at msn.com  Wed Mar 21 12:33:11 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:33:11 -0000
Subject: SPOILER:  FB & Werewolves
Message-ID: <99a727+l0hh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14817

Got my books on Monday (finally!) & I'm one happy camper.  But, as I 
read, I noticed something...

I
W
A
N
T
A
P
U
F
F
S
K
E
I
N
&
A
K
N
E
A
Z
L
E

...that *nowhere* in the entry on werewolves does it say *anything* 
about silver being fatal to them. Is this something Hollywood made 
up?  The Encyclopaedia Mythica doesn't mention silver either.  

Peace & Plenty,

Parker 







From mssabano at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 13:21:29 2001
From: mssabano at yahoo.com (mssabano at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:21:29 -0000
Subject: Apologies: False Accusations
Message-ID: <99a9sp+hrfs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14818

To Everyone,
   I apologize if you were offended by the message False Accusations. 
It wasn't directed to those who support J.K. and are against 
Stouffer. It was to that muggle who thinks J.K. copied the idea from 
Stouffer.

Mike




From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 21 14:11:24 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:11:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gender balance If HP were a girl
References: <F9368bxFIOmvHbp82xO000058b8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AB8B68C.91A7B52C@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14819

Sofie 'Melle' Werkers wrote:

> Hm. I don't think so. I think the main reason so few boys read books
> with
> girl protagonists is the same as why *I* never really read them. They
> tend
> to be, well, ... boring. At least the ones that were available to me
> when I
> was young. Girl protagonists have a tendency to be goody-two-shoes
> whose
> biggest worry seemed to be to keep their parents together or help some
> poor,
> starving family or whatnot.

LOL! So right.

> I wanted *action*, and apprently, books with action have male
> protagonists.

Pretty much true.

> My point being, if Harry had been female, I don't think it'd have made
> any
> difference, as long as she had the same adventures et al that Harry
> has.

Well, out of your own mouth, perceptions of female hero-characters and
male hero-characters exist for many people and might have had an impact.
Even if the books had a female in an action role, if the perception
dissuaded them from reading the book at all, there would have been an
impact.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 14:15:53 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:15:53 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: was Stouffer to be on ABC News  ... Nimbus
References: <F265sl3xbYiMCIqtQvA000056dd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501c0b211$71e82000$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14820

<snip>
<<there is a character in her book called Nimbus who is some sort of sky god
and then the Nimbus 2000 in HP.>>

Eh? I always thought that 'Nimbus' was a reference to a sort of clous. The
Something Nimbus, a storm cloud, I think. Since it sounds Latin, I suspect
it may well have been some sort of [lesser] god of clouds in the Roman
panthenon, and it'd make sense to JKR to name a broomstick after him.

Sofie,
delurking with her 2 cents.

Well, let's see ... there are Nimbus boats, Nimbus Records, Nimbus
Technology & Engineering, Nimbus Kayaks, Nimbus Brewing Co., Nimbus
Publishing in Canada, Golden Nimbus, an exporter of dental equipment, (I
wonder if the Grangers get their equipment from them?), a Club Nimbus in
Spain, Nimbus Software, and the list goes on & on & on....

Cumulonimbus Thunderheads

LOW-LEVEL...NIMBOSTRATUS CLOUDS
(Also called nimbus or nimbo)

This is something we all learned in grade school. Hardly a Stouffer
original!

Stouffer is indeed a prepackaged frozen meal, totally inferior to the real
thing: the wholesome, home-cooked, appetizing, appealing, and satisfying
Rowling.

Doreen




From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 21 14:18:05 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:18:05 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Father figures, Snape, Dumbledore and Hogwarts
References: <20010321112616.39520.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AB8B81D.1B9D80F6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14821

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Has anyone noticed how fanatical Snape is in his reverence for
> Hogwarts?  Rules are everything. And he can come up with no worse
> punishment for Harry - who he loathes - than expulsion from Hogwarts:
> a fate he seems to regard as the equivalent of exile.

Oooooh. Wow. Mmmmm. Yes. Very, very good observation. It's true. Outer
darkness, ultimate fate to wreak upon Harry = expulsion. And Sirius says
Snape was always trying to get the Marauders expelled, too. So was
Hogwarts the home that Snape didn't have where he came from? Have all
his actions been somewhat "protective" of Hogwarts, too--even the bad
ones? Was he trying to get disrespectful troublemakers out of Hogwarts
where they didn't belong, instead of it being a personal dislike? Was he
involved with the Death Eaters for a similar reason? Great insight, I'd
never thought of that.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 21 14:23:36 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:23:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILER:  FB & Werewolves
References: <99a727+l0hh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB8B968.621CA318@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14822

pbnesbit at msn.com wrote:

> Got my books on Monday (finally!) & I'm one happy camper.  But, as I
> read, I noticed something...
>
> I
> W
> A
> N
> T
> A
> P
> U
> F
> F
> S
> K
> E
> I
> N
> &
> A
> K
> N
> E
> A
> Z
> L
> E
>
> ...that *nowhere* in the entry on werewolves does it say *anything*
> about silver being fatal to them. Is this something Hollywood made
> up?  The Encyclopaedia Mythica doesn't mention silver either.

I refer you, and all the newcomers to the list who haven't heard this
before, to a wonderful book called "Vampires, Burial, and Death" by
Paul? Barber. It's a pretty comprehensive look at, well, what happens to
bodies after you die, and how observation of the process has given rise
to some form of undead/vampire legend in pretty much all cultures.

Werewolves in folklore are often closely associated with vampires, and I
think he discusses the silver thing (I've lent out the book, sorry).
Anyway, it's a fascinating book and gives a good grounding in what
vampires and other nocturnal pests were, pre-Bram Stoker and Anne Rice.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Frito_KAL at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 14:25:03 2001
From: Frito_KAL at yahoo.com (Karen Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:25:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <998s8e+ifqj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010321142503.14474.qmail@web9407.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14823


Re: Harry being as succesful if he were female:
 
I'd like to think he would -- oddly, one of the first books I read that had a strong female lead character was "Do you want to be a Wizard" by Diane Duane. --  With a female lead. Not boring, not 'goody-goody' -- not a girlie-girl.
 
Most of my fantasy/sci-fi reading friends have read this one, and its 2 (3?) sequals, so it seems fairly popular.
I think, that given Rowling's talent for writing characters, she could have made a female "Harry" into an equally interesting strong protaganist.
Frito
--
I'm not one to believe in magic
Though my memory has a second-sight
I'm not one to go pointing my finger
When I radiate more heat than light
-- Rush (Presto)



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 14:30:13 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:30:13 -0000
Subject: was Stouffer to be on ABC News  ... Nimbus
In-Reply-To: <001501c0b211$71e82000$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99adtl+vusg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14824


Once again, you cannot copyright a word-- only your original writing. 
This is central to copyright law. Nimbus is a very common word, found 
in the dictionary, and all writers have the right to use it. You can 
trademark it for a specific product, but people still have the right 
to use the word.

Unless Stouffer's Nimbus is a state-of-art RACING BROOM, I see no 
significant similarity.

--Suzanne



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> <snip>
> <<there is a character in her book called Nimbus who is some sort 
of sky god
> and then the Nimbus 2000 in HP.>>
> 
> Eh? I always thought that 'Nimbus' was a reference to a sort of 
clous. The
> Something Nimbus, a storm cloud, I think. Since it sounds Latin, I 
suspect
> it may well have been some sort of [lesser] god of clouds in the 
Roman
> panthenon, and it'd make sense to JKR to name a broomstick after 
him.
> 
> Sofie,
> delurking with her 2 cents.
> 
> Well, let's see ... there are Nimbus boats, Nimbus Records, Nimbus
> Technology & Engineering, Nimbus Kayaks, Nimbus Brewing Co., Nimbus
> Publishing in Canada, Golden Nimbus, an exporter of dental 
equipment, (I
> wonder if the Grangers get their equipment from them?), a Club 
Nimbus in
> Spain, Nimbus Software, and the list goes on & on & on....
> 
> Cumulonimbus Thunderheads
> 
> LOW-LEVEL...NIMBOSTRATUS CLOUDS
> (Also called nimbus or nimbo)
> 
> This is something we all learned in grade school. Hardly a Stouffer
> original!
> 
> Stouffer is indeed a prepackaged frozen meal, totally inferior to 
the real
> thing: the wholesome, home-cooked, appetizing, appealing, and 
satisfying
> Rowling.
> 
> Doreen




From minerva at femgeeks.net  Wed Mar 21 14:54:33 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:54:33 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gender balance If HP were a girl
Message-ID: <F305gm6qv5KYtc5CQ9f00005994@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14825

<<Even if the books had a female in an action role, if the perception
dissuaded them from reading the book at all, there would have been an
impact.>>

True. I fully recognise that my brothers are rather rare exceptions [we've 
had a good upbringing] and that most boys do still think that girls = no 
action = no good. [Er. Pun not intended but snickered over nonetheless.]

So, basically, I guess that if Harry were a girl, it would have had little 
to no impact on how much people who actually read the book would enjoy it, 
but it would have an impact on how many [and which] people would actually 
start reading the book.

Sofie,
wow, sense. I obviously need more coffee.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
- I don't want that kind of power.
- You're just afraid of it.
(Draco and Harry; contextless snippetty conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 14:59:27 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:59:27 -0600
Subject: Muggles, Wizards, Witches? Wuggles ... What are we?
Message-ID: <003f01c0b217$88c3d020$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14826

The Lexicon http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ says:

"Muggles" are non-magical people in the parlance of the Wizarding World. Muggles are for the most part oblivious to the entire society of magical people which exists alongside their own. Part of the reason for this is that Muggles simply don't believe that magic exists, which means they find non-magical reasons for the things that happen to them. (and a lot more)<snip>

"Magic is what sets folks in the Wizarding World apart from their Muggle neighbors. Magic is the heart and soul of the Wizarding culture. <snip>"

Since we do not do magic, but we definitely believe that magic exists, and we are acutely aware of the existence of wizards, witches, and magical beings, spells, and the entire magical society, what does that make us?

As much as I would like to believe that I belong to the Wizarding World, alas, I can not do even the simplest spells, or I would have my dishes and laundry clean themselves in the Molly Weasley fashion.

OTOH, when I hear or read the term, Muggle, I do not feel that it applies to me. They just simply do not get it. 

So, I am back to square one ... what does that make us? Wuggles? Mizards & Mitches?  Wuggles ... hmmmm I kind of like that one.

Doreen, a Wuggle from Iowa



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From minerva at femgeeks.net  Wed Mar 21 14:58:53 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:58:53 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: was Stouffer to be on ABC News ... Nimbus
Message-ID: <F201Jb0LxA56iYGoVEm00005a6c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14827

<snip>
<<This is something we all learned in grade school. Hardly a Stouffer
original!>>

Exactly. Stouffer and Rowling obviously got their inspiration for this name 
from the same source, but that sure as hell isn't ground for a lawsuit.

[I [co-]wrote a novel in which one of the protagonists is called 
'Casseiopeia', after the star -- and the Roman myth. Does that mean I can 
sue everyone who ever writes about a character by that name? Wahey! I smell 
money! :)]

<<Stouffer is indeed a prepackaged frozen meal, totally inferior to the real 
thing: the wholesome, home-cooked, appetizing, appealing, and satisfying 
Rowling.>>

And now I'm hungry. Thanks a lot.

Sofie

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
- I don't want that kind of power.
- You're just afraid of it.
(Draco and Harry; contextless snippetty conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 15:06:51 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:06:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance
References: <9999u7+559f@eGroups.com> <001101c0b200$b38d4d20$55421e3f@satellite>
Message-ID: <004f01c0b218$9222fe60$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14828


However, Rowling has such a gift of wit, and such a gift of writing, that I
wonder if she might have had the ability to make a female "Harry" just as
engaging as the male one.

  ender

Perhaps JKR's next book will be based on a female character and have nothing
to do with the Wizarding World. I would like to see what else she has under
her hat.

Doreen





From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Wed Mar 21 15:23:48 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:23:48 -0400
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil 
Message-ID: <3AB8C784.3E5EA0C1@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 14829

  From: "Rachelle Elliott" <relliott at jvlnet.com>

>Has Draco done something to officially make hime evil?  Yes, he has learned
>to be somewhat of a jerk from his father.  But, that does not mean that he
>wont see the error of his ways.  Children can come from questionable homes
>everyday and still can turn out ok.  How many times have various characters
>stated that people "deserve second chances."  I feel there is hope for
>Malfoy.  He is only in 9th grade.  He comming to the age in which he can
>and
>will start to think on his own.  James Potter had a distaste for Snape but
>he still saved his life.  When Crookshanks starts hissing directly at
>Malfoy
>then, I will be convinced.

Here is why I think Draco is officially evil. From GoF, end of book, on
the Hogwarts express:

"'Too late now,  Potter! They'll be the first to go, now the Dark Lord's
back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well - second - Diggory was the
f-'"

This is not just a little boy who was taught hatred at his father's
knee. This is not "somewhat of a jerk". This is a nasty brat who is
openly enjoying the prospect of seeing his schoolmates cut down by
Voldemort. He can envision a "Mudblood" like Hermione getting killed,
and he relishes it. And that awful remark about Cedric's death - I don't
care how many pairs of leather pants he has, he is an evil skanky brat.

I can imagine a different scene on the train - instead of taunting the
gang, Draco and his buddies pull out their wands to start the carnage
themselves. *Then* I would see Crookshanks opening a can of whoop-ass on
Draco's skinny butt, cleverly dodging the counter-spells flying through
the air.

Angela
-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
  "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs
should relax and get used to the idea."   Robert A. Heinlein



From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Mar 21 15:31:25 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:31:25 -0000
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil
In-Reply-To: <3AB8C784.3E5EA0C1@nb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <99ahgd+lsls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14830

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Angela Boyko <aboyko at n...> wrote:>
> Here is why I think Draco is officially evil. From GoF, end of 
book, on
> the Hogwarts express:
> 
> "'Too late now,  Potter! They'll be the first to go, now the Dark 
Lord's
> back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well - second - Diggory 
was the
> f-'"
> 
> This is not just a little boy who was taught hatred at his father's
> knee. This is not "somewhat of a jerk". This is a nasty brat who is
> openly enjoying the prospect of seeing his schoolmates cut down by
> Voldemort. He can envision a "Mudblood" like Hermione getting 
killed,
> and he relishes it. And that awful remark about Cedric's death - I 
don't
> care how many pairs of leather pants he has, he is an evil skanky 
brat.

Ok, this is the part where I KNOW I sound like a Draco-apologist, and 
I don't want to because in canon, there REALLY may not be anything 
worth apologizing for. I know this. I recognize this. I don't care.
Look at that sentence without punctuation, and don't hear it in 
Draco's drawl:

"Too late now,  Potter. They'll be the first to go, now the Dark 
Lord's back - Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first,  Well - second - 
Diggory was the f..."

The speaker thinks that what he's saying is completely true - he 
knows that Voldemort has returned and it doesn't take a full fledged  
Death Eater to conclude that he'll go after muggle-born and muggle-
supportive wizards - in fact, it's implied that everyone around 
Harry's bedside believes the same thing. And Cedric Diggory *was* the 
first person to be killed by Voldemort in this second reign of 
terror. 

Why is this a malicious statement? Because of how he sounded when he 
said it? Because he was warning them - and trying to smile to look 
reassuring, not realizing that he was completely failing at it? We 
really do *not* know what he was thinking when he said this - and 
yes, it could be horrible, he could have the worst intentions in the 
world. It's entirely possible.

But Crookshanks didn't jump at him...so maybe he didn't....




From margdean at erols.com  Wed Mar 21 15:50:28 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:50:28 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Father figures, Snape, Dumbledore and Hogwarts
References: <20010321112616.39520.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> <3AB8B81D.1B9D80F6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AB8CDC4.7240DD0E@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14831

Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> 
> Magda Grantwich wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone noticed how fanatical Snape is in his reverence for
> > Hogwarts?  Rules are everything. And he can come up with no worse
> > punishment for Harry - who he loathes - than expulsion from Hogwarts:
> > a fate he seems to regard as the equivalent of exile.
> 
> Oooooh. Wow. Mmmmm. Yes. Very, very good observation. It's true. Outer
> darkness, ultimate fate to wreak upon Harry = expulsion. And Sirius says
> Snape was always trying to get the Marauders expelled, too. So was
> Hogwarts the home that Snape didn't have where he came from? 

I suspect that's all too likely.  Poor Severus!

> Have all
> his actions been somewhat "protective" of Hogwarts, too--even the bad
> ones? Was he trying to get disrespectful troublemakers out of Hogwarts
> where they didn't belong, instead of it being a personal dislike? Was he
> involved with the Death Eaters for a similar reason?

Or because they were also a place where he could "belong" once he
(oh horrors!) =graduated= from Hogwarts?  Because you can't stay
in school indefinitely, you know . . . unless you become a
professor.  And 20 or 21 would be just too young an age for that.

Which suddenly makes me think that if Snape =doesn't= die
gloriously, the only really fitting reward for him will be to
succeed Dumbledore as Headmaster of Hogwarts (however much I've
always envisioned Professor McGonagall in that post).  And
perhaps Dumbledore knows that.

Either that or -- here's a thought -- he could take over from
Karkaroff as Headmaster of =Durmstrang= and give that place a
thorough cleaning out!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Wed Mar 21 15:50:03 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:50:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stouffer to be on ABC News
In-Reply-To: <F265sl3xbYiMCIqtQvA000056dd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103211041180.29826-100000@er4.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14832

On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Sofie 'Melle' Werkers wrote:

> Eh? I always thought that 'Nimbus' was a reference to a sort of clous. The 
> Something Nimbus, a storm cloud, I think. Since it sounds Latin, I suspect 
> it may well have been some sort of [lesser] god of clouds in the Roman 
> panthenon, and it'd make sense to JKR to name a broomstick after him.

A 'nimbus' in Latin is a (storm) cloud.  There was no god Nimbus, but
the word is also used to refer to the circle behinds the heads of gods
or holy persons in (just Christian?) iconography.

You can see an example of a nimbus on a coin of Honorius at 
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/image?lookup=1997.03.2786

Stouffer's claim on this point, like the rest, is groundless.

--jen, who deeply cherishes the photograph of a friend of hers standing
with a Frisbee held above her head as a nimbus.  Said friend is also,
bien s?r, a Classicist. :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From bbennett at joymail.com  Wed Mar 21 15:50:40 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:50:40 -0000
Subject: Stouffer Woman?
In-Reply-To: <MABBJHGODKMAPNGJPPHEGECMCBAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <99aikg+4fpe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14833

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Roy Mallett Jr" <wr7238 at w...> wrote:
> I haven't heard of this person mainly because my boys keep me busy 
with school projects. So could someone explain who she is and why she 
is doing what she is to our favorite author of our favorite books? 
Thank you, from witchwanda2002.

Hello Wanda,

Stouffer claims Rowling stole ideas from a book she published in the 
early 80s. While I hesitate to recommend it, Stouffer's website has 
all the specifics of when this supposedly happened (does Stouffer 
realize most of her web hits *must* come from HP fans?). It's at 
www.realmuggles.com. Stouffer filed suit, but is now apparently 
claiming she's the one being sued. Interesting.

B





From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 16:08:49 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:08:49 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPOILER:  FB & Werewolves
References: <99a727+l0hh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005501c0b221$3acdbac0$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14834

I
W
A
N
T
A
P
U
F
F
S
K
E
I
N
&
A
K
N
E
A
Z
L
E

...that *nowhere* in the entry on werewolves does it say *anything*
about silver being fatal to them. Is this something Hollywood made
up?  The Encyclopaedia Mythica doesn't mention silver either.

Peace & Plenty,

Parker

I do believe that you are correct about it being a Hollywood invention.
There are many myths about werewolves and how to kill them, hanging,
shooting, burning, etc. Did you know that there is even a were-owl?
In the Hollywood movies, I believe that the were-wolf had to be killed by a
silver bullet shot by someone who loved the person who is under the werewolf
curse. I am not up on werewolves, though, as vampires were always my
preferred monster. Loved "Dark Shadows"!

Doreen, who used to wish a vampire would visit her at night.




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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Mar 21 16:18:41 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:18:41 -0000
Subject: Stouffer Woman?
In-Reply-To: <MABBJHGODKMAPNGJPPHEGECMCBAA.wr7238@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <99ak91+624a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14835

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Roy Mallett Jr" <wr7238 at w...> wrote:
> I haven't heard of this person mainly because my boys keep me busy 
with
> school projects. So could someone explain who she is and why she is 
doing
> what she is to our favorite author of our favorite books? Thank 
you, from
> witchwanda2002.

My long response to this is at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/12672 - I'm doing 
the FAQ on this subject, and am also a trademark attorney, so there's 
some legalese in there, but I do discuss her claims, what trademark 
and copyright law mean & give some links to other websites that 
discuss her "case".

Just a reminder on the law - it does NOT matter if JKR ever saw the 
Stouffer books, since it's a TRADEMARK case. Trademarks are accrued 
by use, not by registration, so any use of a mark in connection with 
goods or services (even a dictionary word like the use of APPLE for 
computers) creates a trademark as long as the term isn't descriptive 
(SWEET for juice) or generic (APPLE for, well, apples). 
That's why we trademark attorneys do searches of PTO records and 
common law usages and domain names EVERY time one of our clients 
wants to adopt a mark - to make sure nobody else is using it. 
HOWEVER, elements of fictional characters entitled to this protection 
include their name, appearance, costumes, and key phrases. A writer 
could create a comic book with a crime fighting super hero who has 
super-human strength and the ability to fly. However, if he has his 
hero wear a red cape with the letter "S" on his chest, even if the 
character is called StupendoMan, consumers would see the image and 
believe it was "that other guy." 
The most relevant case I've found is Frederick Warne v. Book Sales 
Inc. (the Peter Rabbit case). The plaintiff published children's 
books and brought suit against a competitor for trademark 
infringement as it related to the illustrations in a series of books 
about the Beatrix Potter character, Peter Rabbit. The court said, "It 
would not be enough that the illustrations inquestion have come to 
signify Beatrix Potter as author of the books; plaintiff must show 
that they have come to represent its goodwill and reputation as 
Publisher of those books." Under trademark law, the illustrated 
representation of a character, like ELMO or MICKEY MOUSE is 
protected, IF they act as an indication of origin, BUT the same is 
not true for strictly literary characters, and the NAME of the 
illustrated character (like LILLY POTTER or THE KEEPER OF THE KEYS) 
is not protected - just the way it looks. 
ARTHUR the aardvark gets this kind of protection. So does JAMES BOND. 
So do HARRY POTTER and DRACO MALFOY and ALBUS DUMBLEDORE. Eloise 
Midgen, otoh, doesn't. MRS NORRIS might, but someone could certainly 
write a book involving a catty character named MRS NORRIS and say 
that they took it from Mansfield Park and JKR couldn't do anything 
about it because, um, so did she (we think!)



BTW - Stouffer *was* sued by Scholastic, WB, JKR, etc. She had been 
threatening them with a lawsuit for a few months, and they filed what 
is called a "declaratory judgment" action against her in the Southern 
District of New York (aka NYC) - about 5 months later she filed 
counterclaims against them in the NYC case, some of which were 
dismissed, AND filed suit against the same parties in Pennsylvania, 
where she lives. That suit was dismissed, since it incorporated the 
same issues as the NYC case did, and since the Scholastic Team filed 
first, Stouffer's attempt to do what's called "forum shopping" was 
thrown out by the court. 






From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 16:46:15 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:46:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] was Father figures,  ... Snape, Hogwarts, & Hermione
References: <20010321112616.39520.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> <3AB8B81D.1B9D80F6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <007801c0b226$72afd040$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14836


Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Has anyone noticed how fanatical Snape is in his reverence for
> Hogwarts?  Rules are everything. And he can come up with no worse
> punishment for Harry - who he loathes - than expulsion from Hogwarts:
> a fate he seems to regard as the equivalent of exile.

Oooooh. Wow. Mmmmm. Yes. Very, very good observation. It's true. Outer
darkness, ultimate fate to wreak upon Harry = expulsion. And Sirius says
Snape was always trying to get the Marauders expelled, too. So was
Hogwarts the home that Snape didn't have where he came from? Have all
his actions been somewhat "protective" of Hogwarts, too--even the bad
ones? Was he trying to get disrespectful troublemakers out of Hogwarts
where they didn't belong, instead of it being a personal dislike? Was he
involved with the Death Eaters for a similar reason? Great insight, I'd
never thought of that.

--Amanda

Why does he also antagonize Hermione, who is striving to be THE Hogwarts
prize pupil?

Doreen






From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 16:55:06 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:55:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: was Stouffer to be on ABC News  ... Nimbus
References: <99adtl+vusg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008201c0b227$af86f560$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14837

Once again, you cannot copyright a word-- only your original writing.
This is central to copyright law. Nimbus is a very common word, found
in the dictionary, and all writers have the right to use it. You can
trademark it for a specific product, but people still have the right
to use the word.

Unless Stouffer's Nimbus is a state-of-art RACING BROOM, I see no
significant similarity.

--Suzanne

What is Stouffer;s "Nimbus" anyway? I have lost track or interest... not
sure which. BTW, I hate when people refer to her by her initials. That just
smacks of equating her in even the teensiest tiniest way with our beloved
JKR.  I know that is the ultimate of picky, picky, picky, but today I feel
like being picky, picky, picky. And as for using Stouffer and the Nimbus,
state-of-the-art racing broom in the same sentence, hee hee ... I know my
thoughts on what I would do ... but that would not even be a  fit statement
for OT.

Doreen, humming, "Hey, you! Get off of my cloud!" .... Pink Floyd?


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> <snip>
> <<there is a character in her book called Nimbus who is some sort
of sky god
> and then the Nimbus 2000 in HP.>>
>
> Eh? I always thought that 'Nimbus' was a reference to a sort of
clous. The
> Something Nimbus, a storm cloud, I think. Since it sounds Latin, I
suspect
> it may well have been some sort of [lesser] god of clouds in the
Roman
> panthenon, and it'd make sense to JKR to name a broomstick after
him.
>
> Sofie,
> delurking with her 2 cents.
>
> Well, let's see ... there are Nimbus boats, Nimbus Records, Nimbus
> Technology & Engineering, Nimbus Kayaks, Nimbus Brewing Co., Nimbus
> Publishing in Canada, Golden Nimbus, an exporter of dental
equipment, (I
> wonder if the Grangers get their equipment from them?), a Club
Nimbus in
> Spain, Nimbus Software, and the list goes on & on & on....
>
> Cumulonimbus Thunderheads
>
> LOW-LEVEL...NIMBOSTRATUS CLOUDS
> (Also called nimbus or nimbo)
>
> This is something we all learned in grade school. Hardly a Stouffer
> original!
>
> Stouffer is indeed a prepackaged frozen meal, totally inferior to
the real
> thing: the wholesome, home-cooked, appetizing, appealing, and
satisfying
> Rowling.
>
> Doreen



_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

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From margdean at erols.com  Wed Mar 21 16:51:45 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (margdean at erols.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:51:45 -0000
Subject: 7 Heavenly Virtues: Justice
In-Reply-To: <8vac6r+f1ch@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99am71+qkj6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14838

Yes, I'm responding to a rather old post, but I've been having a
wonderful time reading over Peg Kerr's essays and the responses to
them, and this particular response cried out for an answer:


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
 
> 3) It may have been unfair to convict Jr with the evidence presented 
> and it may have been cruelly heartless of Crouch Sr to convict his 
> own son -- but it was the correct thing to do. Being as how he was 
> both guilty and a danger to the public. That is a question under 
> Justice: what to do when the unjust action is the correct action?

That's why it's so important, as Peg pointed out, to KNOW THE WHOLE
STORY.  If Crouch, Sr. had handed down his sentence on the basis of
full knowledge rather than the faulty evidence he did act on, I really
doubt he would later have succumbed to his wife's pleas on Barty Jr.'s
behalf.  As it was, I strongly suspect that he later doubted the
justice of his own action, and felt guilty.  

Justice =has= to be based on truth, or it will go awry.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Wed Mar 21 17:02:52 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:02:52 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius Black
In-Reply-To: <3AB7EE23.CB6A981D@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKMEIBCBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 14839


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer [mailto:pennylin at swbell.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 12:56 AM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius Black

Me:  
> >We are no longer talking about the 16year old boy who played a
> > rather dangerous prank on Snape but about a man of about 40 (no, I
> > don't
> > believe that James and Lily died at 21) 

Well, I have been proven wrong here, but I maintain my opinion that
Sirius will make an excellent parent even though he is "only" 36 by GoF.
But this raises another question: doesn't anyone find it strange that 
he was supposed to be Voldy's second in command if he was only 
21 or 22 in 1981? I think this is fairly young for such a "high" position.
What I want to say is, how could he have become so important a
personality when there were certainly quite a few more experienced
Death Eaters around? Very strange. But it confirms to me that Crouch
may actually have had another good reason to get him out of the way.

Penny:
> I think it's also important to note what he has to say about Barty
> Crouch Sr. when he talks to the Trio in the cave near Hogsmeade (Ch
> 27).  You can tell from his remarks that he clearly has a good idea of
> what a responsible caring father does and does not do.  He has some very
> sharp comments to make about Barty Sr.'s parenting skills. 

Excellent point. The whole conversation in the cave shows that he
is indeed a thoughtful person, and he has had *a lot* of time to
think about everything that is going on in the wizarding community
since his return from the tropics. So, who would make a good parent?
IMHO someone who is able to serve as a role model to his children,
and Sirius is absolutely up to it.

> His hair is black -- long matted black hair (I think this is when the
> television report is on at the Dursleys but I could be mistaken). 

No, the color of his hair actually isn't mentioned until GoF. In PoA
it is only said that it is long, matted and filthy. For some strange
reason, I always pictured him with dark hair, even before I knew
that he was a good guy. Maybe because I hoped he would turn out to
be good...

> His
> hair is definitely black though -- it's somewhere in PoA (and probably
> GoF too). 

It's mentioned in the scene when his head appears in the fireplace and
in the scene taking place in the cave near Hogsmeade, but nowhere
in PoA.

> And, since JKR has said that Sirius was intended to be "dead
> sexy," it supports my theory that she definitely has a "thing" for men
> with black hair (James, Harry, Hagrid, Snape, Sirius ....).  :--)

Well, her ex husband is a Portuguese macho, and even though she
has divorced him, she can't help finding dark haired types attractive. :->

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 17:12:47 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:12:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Father figures, Snape, Dumbledore and Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <3AB8CDC4.7240DD0E@erols.com>
Message-ID: <20010321171247.60029.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14840

>> Was he trying to get disrespectful troublemakers out of
>> Hogwarts where they didn't belong, instead of it being a personal 
>> dislike? Was he involved with the Death Eaters for a similar 
>> reason?

His biggest gripe against James and gang (in addition to almost being
killed) is that they broke the rules regularly and with impunity.  It
really bugs him.  He is incapable of understanding how the anyone
could overlook rule-breaking because the boys were adorable rogues. 
It makes no sense to him; rule are rules and that's that.  Under the
anger you can hear the frustration of a man who STILL doesn't get it.
 Also notice that Draco is very careful not to actually break a rule
when Snape is around or looking; he's very good at manipulating
someone else (usually Ron) to be the aggressor.


> Which suddenly makes me think that if Snape =doesn't= die
> gloriously, the only really fitting reward for him will be to
> succeed Dumbledore as Headmaster of Hogwarts (however much I've
> always envisioned Professor McGonagall in that post).  And
> perhaps Dumbledore knows that.

A finally-grown-up-and-mature Snape, with a good woman at his side
and a transforming experience behind him, would be a good headmaster.
 My money's on this outcome.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 17:18:44 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:18:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... IS
References: <99ahgd+lsls@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009d01c0b22a$fe97b6a0$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14841

Here is why I think Draco is officially evil. From GoF, end of book, on the
Hogwarts express:

"'Too late now,  Potter! They'll be the first to go, now the Dark Lord's
back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well - second - Diggory was the
f-'"

This is not just a little boy who was taught hatred at his father's knee.
This is not "somewhat of a jerk". This is a nasty brat who is openly
enjoying the prospect of seeing his schoolmates cut down by Voldemort. He
can envision a "Mudblood" like Hermione getting killed, and he relishes it.
And that awful remark about Cedric's death - I don't care how many pairs of
leather pants he has, he is an evil skanky brat.

Ok, this is the part where I KNOW I sound like a Draco-apologist, and
I don't want to because in canon, there REALLY may not be anything
worth apologizing for. I know this. I recognize this. I don't care.
Look at that sentence without punctuation, and don't hear it in
Draco's drawl:

"Too late now,  Potter. They'll be the first to go, now the Dark
Lord's back - Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first,  Well - second -
Diggory was the f..."

The speaker thinks that what he's saying is completely true - he
knows that Voldemort has returned and it doesn't take a full fledged
Death Eater to conclude that he'll go after muggle-born and muggle-
supportive wizards - in fact, it's implied that everyone around
Harry's bedside believes the same thing. And Cedric Diggory *was* the
first person to be killed by Voldemort in this second reign of
terror.

Why is this a malicious statement? Because of how he sounded when he
said it? Because he was warning them - and trying to smile to look
reassuring, not realizing that he was completely failing at it? We
really do *not* know what he was thinking when he said this - and
yes, it could be horrible, he could have the worst intentions in the
world. It's entirely possible.

But Crookshanks didn't jump at him...so maybe he didn't....

Draco is not just evil in that reference, but throughout the entire series.
The only time he is not evil to Harry was in the robe fitting room, but even
then, he was not nice in his references to other students. It didn't take
Harry or most readers much time at all to figure out what Draco Malfoy was
all about. Even his name suggests this: mal- "bad, badly, abnormal,
inadequate"

Draco and his allies are mean to other students; disrespectful to Hagrid
when he was teaching; they show no respect even to Dumbledore during a
couple of his speeches in the Great Hall. The references are too numerous to
name, but it would make for an interesting list.

Doreen, whose EX-husband also looked good in leather pants, but was also a
skanky, evil git!

_______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________

>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
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the messages they want to read and those they don't.

Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your
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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 17:18:14 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:18:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] was Father figures,  ... Snape, Hogwarts, & Hermione
In-Reply-To: <007801c0b226$72afd040$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <20010321171814.60828.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14842

> Why does he also antagonize Hermione, who is striving to be THE
> Hogwarts prize pupil?
> 
> Doreen

Because she's part of Harry's gang.  

Slytherins are okay because he has some influence over them; they can
be trained to the proper attitudes.  Also he's fiercely territorial
about his stuff - his house, his classes, his expertise.

But the kids in other houses aren't being trained in the proper
manner.  Their heads of houses don't appreciate the school like he
does, don't understand that you can't just let the kids have fun,
they're there to work and besides it's absolutely sickening the way
all the other teachers fawn over the FAMOUS Harry Potter - the
WONDERFUL Harry Potter - the POPULAR Harry Potter - is this any way
to run a good school?  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Wed Mar 21 17:23:31 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:23:31 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stouffer Woman?
References: <99aikg+4fpe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB8E392.CA037868@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 14843



bbennett at joymail.com wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Roy Mallett Jr" <wr7238 at w...> wrote:
> > I haven't heard of this person mainly because my boys keep me busy
> with school projects. So could someone explain who she is and why she
> is doing what she is to our favorite author of our favorite books?
> Thank you, from witchwanda2002.
>

I had been wondering the same things myself, everyone seems to talk about her. I'm one of those people who like to get both sides of the story, and be well informed about what's going on. You can make informed opinions at that point.

>
> Hello Wanda,
>
> Stouffer claims Rowling stole ideas from a book she published in the
> early 80s. While I hesitate to recommend it, Stouffer's website has
> all the specifics of when this supposedly happened (does Stouffer
> realize most of her web hits *must* come from HP fans?). It's at
> www.realmuggles.com. Stouffer filed suit, but is now apparently
> claiming she's the one being sued. Interesting.
>
> B

First off, you people are just a wonderous wealth of information. The Lexicon is amazing, and the things you people know are amazing! I'm so happy to find a group where there are other people like myself who enjoy Harry Potter, but who are
older than ten. All I need to say is THANX! Nuff said, now for the commentary.

I visited the website, and now I'm sorry I even gave her a hit on the website. Has anyone noticed how aggresive she is? She keeps saying that she's not agressive, but has all these phrases in ittalics to make her point. I don't know, but if I
were a child visiting her ws, I wouldn't be too interested or intriqued. She has the one section on her book, and then it's all interviews and other stuff about how Rowling stole her ideas. As I said, if I were a child, I would not enjoy her
ws! It just seems so angry.

What needs to be stated is thus, even though it's probably been beaten to death already, who the h-e-double broomsticks is this woman? I've NEVER heard of her, nor her books. I read a lot, and it's my one addiction. One of my faves is
childrens fiction (it's just so darn fun), and I've never heard of Muggles until HPPS came out.

The following is an excerpt:

                                                                                             HAS YOUR LIFE BEEN THREATENED? Yes. I have received several threats to
                                                                                    my life. The F. B. I. has been notified. I have also had a number of profane e-mails from
                                                                                        avid HP fans, using terminology claimed from JKR?s books. It makes me wonder what
                                                                                     they have gained from reading Ms. Rowling?s work. I don?t believe I could ever be proud
                                                                                     of the fact that my work was encouraging young readers to feel that it?s okay to attack
                                                                                     anyone, the way they have violated me. Especially, because I?m the victim in this case,
                                                                                   not Ms. Rowling. Even more disconcerting, is the fact that they are certainly aware of the
                                                                                     substance of some of the chat room conversations and their fans? intent, and have taken
                                                                                   no action to discourage this profane and life-threatening behavior. And, in the absence of
                                                                                   any corrective action on their part, are in fact encouraging it. I have to ask parents---is
                                                                                                            this really what we want for our children?

Does anyone feel threatened by this woman? This one was my favourite, it made me laugh for about ten minutes! I mean, it's as if she's saying "I got the FBI, you can't touch me, blah blah blah!". I mean it's character defremation, is it not?

The whole thing strikes me as a bit melodramatic, and pretty much fluff. And now we come to the point of this post: yes, there is actually a point, and I'm not just venting and waving my wand in a threatening manner... :)

I will dismiss the entire thing as fluff, something not to be taken seriously. Souffer is an agressive woman who is taking advantage of a situation, and trying to make money off of it. I think that someone like that is low, and not worthy of
my attention. I needed to see the website to form an opinion, and now I have.  But we should take the high road; Stouffer is taking a jab at us, but we should not do so against her. The world of HP will be a happier place without so much
agression.

Nuff said, and thanx again guys!
Hugs and much flying,
Jamieson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 17:34:54 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:34:54 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stouffer Woman?
References: <99aikg+4fpe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a901c0b22d$3f892980$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14844


Stouffer claims Rowling stole ideas from a book she published in the
early 80s. While I hesitate to recommend it, Stouffer's website has
all the specifics of when this supposedly happened (does Stouffer
realize most of her web hits *must* come from HP fans?). It's at
www.realmuggles.com. Stouffer filed suit, but is now apparently
claiming she's the one being sued. Interesting.

B

I knew it! I knew it! I knew it!

When I first looked at Stouffer's books and the drawings for them, I knew
there was something nagging me about the way they look. Today, when I looked
again, I realized what it was and it bugs me no end! Have you ever seen
documentaries, (and hopefully have not had the real life experience) of
children with cancer, going thru treatment? They are bald; baseball caps are
their choice of headgear; and even the eyes of S's characters have that
glossed over pained, worn out look that these suffering children get after
the rigors of disease plus chemo.

Another point: at what point in time did Stouffer start going by NK and not
Nancy? Is this something anyone can find out? I think it would be
interesting to find out.

Doreen, who never liked frozen dinners






From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 17:33:33 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:33:33 -0000
Subject: D-day, was Re: Harry's Protective Barriers
In-Reply-To: <999jbc+p1l4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99aold+296n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14845

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen Rich" <nera at r...> wrote:
> In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> I think Harry is being groomed to take his place beside some very 
> strong forces in the fight against Voldemort. 
[snip]
> I wonder why Harry was so special, but I think Dumbledore knows. 
> 
[snip]
> I think there was some magical combination of elements from the  
> start ... something that had to do with the very birth of Harry ... 
> something that AD knows about and that Voldemort either knew or 
found 
> out about via his spies. 

I have always thought this was the case and that Professor 
Trelawney's first accurate prediction (made around the time of 
Harry's birth) was that Harry would be the cause of Voldy's downfall.

While my predictions made previous to GoF for what JKR was up to were 
totally wrong, this is one that I am convinced of.  I would even bet 
10 gold galleons on it.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 21 17:30:57 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:30:57 -0500
Subject: ... Nimbus
References: <99adtl+vusg@eGroups.com> <008201c0b227$af86f560$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <001f01c0b22c$b1de1280$6d65d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 14846


----- Original Message -----
From: "Doreen" <nera at rconnect.com>
>
> Doreen, humming, "Hey, you! Get off of my cloud!" .... Pink Floyd?
>
>


Nope...Rolling Stones

carole





From brill at virginia.edu  Wed Mar 21 17:44:44 2001
From: brill at virginia.edu (brill at virginia.edu)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:44:44 -0000
Subject: was Father figures,  ... Snape, Hogwarts, & Hermione
In-Reply-To: <20010321171814.60828.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99apac+mco3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14847

Has anyone considered the possibility that at least part of Snape's 
animosity toward H/H stems from a "drill sergeant" mentality?  I.e., 
being harder (in this case, MUCH harder) on those students in which 
he recognizes potential for great achievement, encouraging them to 
push themselves along harder?  Of course, he is also building esprit 
de corps among the houses at the same time:

Slytherins:  "we are the chosen few"
Gryffindors: "we the persecuted must look out for one another"

It would be interesting to know what Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff students 
think of Snape.

Cheers,
-Louis




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Mar 21 18:14:26 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:14:26 -0000
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... IS
In-Reply-To: <009d01c0b22a$fe97b6a0$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99ar22+rql9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14848

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
Abgela:  Here is why I think Draco is officially evil
> 
> This is not just a little boy who was taught hatred at his father's 
knee.
> This is not "somewhat of a jerk". This is a nasty brat who is openly
> enjoying the prospect of seeing his schoolmates cut down by 
Voldemort. 


Doreen: Draco and his allies are mean to other students; 
disrespectful to Hagrid when he was teaching; they show no respect 
even to Dumbledore during a
> couple of his speeches in the Great Hall. The references are too 
numerous to
> name, but it would make for an interesting list.
> 

> 

<g> I do believe that the number of pairs of leather pants Draco has 
in canon continues to stand at zero. I think part of what Heidi's 
trying to say is this. (And look at it from the writer's perspective, 
too.) Draco in canon is a horrid little git. He does all sorts of 
nasty things. This is incontrovertible. HOWEVER. He has not yet done 
anything in canon that renders him irredeemable. There is a point 
that a a character passes where redemption seems not just unlikely 
but impossible. Draco has not passed that point. Yes, he's mean, yes 
he's a nasty little brat, but "EVIL" is a big word and I'd use it 
sparingly. It does not apply to "being mean." That's just meanness. 
It does not apply to being disrespectful to Hagrid, either. That's 
just nastiness. Meanness and nastiness do not equal evil. (*cough* 
Snape. *cough*) (Not even to mention that Draco was quite right about 
those stupid blast-ended skrewts.) There is a big difference between 
talk and action. I am not apologizing for Draco. I think he's a 
worthless little weed. But I don't think he's done anything that 
qualifies him as more that "potential evil" quite yet.

Yes, what he said on the train about Cedric was dreadful. But do any 
of us actually think he had some kind of hand in Cedric's death? No. 
Did he have the slightest idea what his father was up to with the 
Chamber of Secrets in Book 2? No, he admitted as much to Crabbe and 
Goyle. He's just a kid, Junior Death Eater material though he might 
be. It's still just words, just spouting off what his father's told 
him. He has not committed any sort of act (i.e. murder) , as of yet, 
that would render it narratively impossible for JKR to turn him 
around or invalidate all our prior experience of the character if she 
did so. Wheras she could not, IMHO, redeem Voldemort, or Lucius. Is 
she leaving a loophole for possible Draco redemption? Search me. I 
know there are plenty of people pulling for him to turn himself 
around that have never read a stitch of fanfic in their lives, so 
there's more going on that mental poisoning via leather trousers. I 
think it has more to do with the fact that it's very hard to watch a 
character you've known since he was eleven years old slotted into 
the "worthless, evil, not a speck of humanity to him" category. Not 
to mention it's a bit ... boring.

Cassie




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Mar 21 18:26:06 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:26:06 -0000
Subject: Neil in NY/ADMIN: Weekly summaries
Message-ID: <99arnu+i77n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14849

Hi everyone,

I'm in New York at the moment (sitting in an internet caf?), but I'm 
still watching you all with my beady little eyes and slapping my 16-
inch bamboo wand into the palm of my hand.  Be warned.

Amy Z said:

<<Wow, a new ship:  FFA/FM!  They were made for each other...  And 
this is one ship where we can actually ask the character whether it's 
true or not.  Fess up, Neil--have you been carrying on with Sirius's 
bike?>>

Er [grinning shyly], I'm saying nothing. <bg>

Okay, to get slightly on topic, and before I get hoisted by my own 
petard, we need a volunteer for the very last week of our current 
summary schedules.  This would be for Chapter 37 of GoF and the 
character sketch of Harry Potter. Unfortunately, Alicia/Sue Spinnet 
is not able to do the summaries and scheduled. We're talking about 
the week after next, BTW... 

As the HP sketch is quite an undertaking, it may be best to have one 
person do that and someone else tackle the last chapter of GoF.  

Please e-mail me at neilward at dircon.co.uk if you're interested in 
volunteering.  I'll be back in the UK on Saturday.

See ya later!

Neil

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator















From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 21 17:59:30 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:59:30 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] was Father figures,  ... Snape, Hogwarts, & Hermione
References: <20010321171814.60828.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3AB8EC02.823C22E6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14850

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> > Why does he also antagonize Hermione, who is striving to be THE
> Hogwarts prize pupil?
> >
> > Doreen
>
> Because she's part of Harry's gang.
>
> Slytherins are okay because he has some influence over them; they can
> be trained to the proper attitudes.  Also he's fiercely territorial
> about his stuff - his house, his classes, his expertise.
>
> But the kids in other houses aren't being trained in the proper
> manner.  Their heads of houses don't appreciate the school like he
> does, don't understand that you can't just let the kids have fun,
> they're there to work and besides it's absolutely sickening the way
> all the other teachers fawn over the FAMOUS Harry Potter - the
> WONDERFUL Harry Potter - the POPULAR Harry Potter - is this any way to
> run a good school?

I think this is pretty close to the mark, for the conscious reasons. But
I also think he's sublimating a bit. I think he's still reacting to
James and the Marauders, in his reactions to Harry, Ron, and Hermione.
That, in my mind, is a big reason he doesn't seem to appreciate
Hermione. He's still trying to "even" the score with James et al.,
perhaps subconsciously.

I think that he favors Draco for similar multiple reasons. The clear
ones that you stated above, but also he's casting Draco as himself, and
he's letting Draco get away with stuff because he, Snape, probably felt
like he never got any breaks.

Thoughts? O Ye Psychoanalysts out there?

--Amanda, who for some reason had inordinate trouble typing
"psychoanalyst"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 18:28:10 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:28:10 -0000
Subject: Stouffer Woman?: I need a Patronus!!!
In-Reply-To: <3AB8E392.CA037868@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <99arrq+rkbb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14851

I don't know if this will work, but here goes:


*Waving my sequoia wand with its core of thunderbird feather and 
trying again and again until my hair is fairly crackling with 
electricity*

Expecto Patronus!!

*Watching as little silver whisps curl out from the tip of my wand, a 
surprised smile spreading across my face since nothing has seemed to 
work so far. The ugly hag shudders as her bald little "muggles" 
waddle away from underneath her skirts, diving into the dustbins, and 
hiding behind the stinking kitchen garbage. Trying the spell once 
again, taking care to get that flick and swish just right*

EXPECTO PATRONUS!!!

*More silver whisps curl from the tip of my wand and swirl and swirl 
until they suddenly take the shape of....

Sirius Black clad only in a tight wet bathing suit, skin bronzed from 
the sun, carrying two pina coladas through the warm waves toward a 
sun-splashed rock upon which sits a pretty dark-haired mermaid with 
mischief in her eyes! Oh he is silvery but he still looks dead sexy 
and nothing can undo that! The mermaid licks her lips hungrily, and 
the waves pour from my wand as I continue to flick and swish, 
surrounding him and surrounding the mermaid, until finally the last 
of the weird bald creatures have floated away. The hag rolls away, 
babbling incoherently, legal papers and press releases clutched in in 
her taloned hands. The ink runs! They are wet and she is wet, and we 
all know she is wet, and so.... suddenly.... 

She is nothing!*






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 21 18:32:01 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:32:01 -0000
Subject: Gender balance
In-Reply-To: <998s8e+ifqj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99as31+43qe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14852

Stacy said from atop a very nice, top-of-the-line, varnished soapbox:

"No strong female characters in Harry Potter . . . All Hermione's good 
at is school . . . Blah blah blah."

Well, articles might say this, but I didn't!  I notice that a few 
posts responding to mine point out that there are strong female 
characters in HP...giving me the impression that I have disappeared 
and been replaced by a Straw Feminist who shouts ridiculous things 
like "Hermione is a weakling!  McGonagall doesn't understand 
Transfiguration!"  Such a figure would be easy to knock down.

There are *some* strong female characters in Harry Potter.  Hermione 
is good at *lots* besides school.  Besides, her being so good at 
school is itself against stereotype, especially because we know she 
particularly loves Arithmancy, which, whatever it is, is mathematical, 
and excels at logic, specifically in contract to the Boy Hero (Snape's 
poser in PS/SS, and Harry thinks it again when he comes to the Sphinx 
in GoF); both of these are subjects where boys supposedly excel and 
girls falter.  Right on, Hermione!  Right on, JKR!

What I am saying is that if you made a list of male and female 
characters, you would find that the important characters are very 
heavily weighted toward the m side of the list.  I would say that the 
six most important characters, going by page time, how well we know 
them, and how much we respect/care about them, are (in no particular 
order):

Harry
Hermione
Ron
Hagrid
Dumbledore
Sirius

Whether McGonagall would be #7 is arguable.  I'd go with Snape, but it 
depends on how much weight you give to page time/importance and how 
much to respect/liking.

Ministry officials:  *all* who are named are men (we do encounter 
unnamed "ministry witches").  

Hogwarts teachers:  the majority are men.  It is *not* 50/50.  Look at 
the most important teachers, and the imbalance is worse.

Quidditch players, even on Gryffindor:  the majority are men/boys.  To 
JKR's credit, the remark that Slytherin has no girls on its team is a 
clear sign that sexism is associated with Pure Evil.  (As it should 
be! <g>)

One thing JKR *doesn't* do is make men out to be nicer, better, 
smarter, etc. than women.  The men play most of the unflattering 
roles, as well as most of the nice ones, and their flaws run the 
gamut, from Evil Overlordship to vanity.  JKR's women and girls are 
very admirable--at least, as admirable as the men and boys are.  Where 
she falls short is in numbers.

Someone did a study some years ago in which they had people read 
sections of textbooks and then answer questions about how many of the 
examples used were female (e.g. girls' names in word problems, things 
like that).  They found that people consistently overestimated the 
number of female references.  Make a textbook scrupulously even in its 
male and female examples, and readers will perceive it as biased 
toward the female.  This is why tokenism works; make one character of 
the top six female, and many readers will perceive it as being even.  
Make one DADA teacher of 5 female, and many people will perceive that 
as even.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
 Feminism:  the radical notion that women are people.
------------------------------------------------------




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 18:37:20 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:37:20 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: was Father figures,  ... Snape, Hogwarts & Harry
References: <99apac+mco3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e901c0b235$f89b1de0$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14853

Has anyone considered the possibility that at least part of Snape's
animosity toward H/H stems from a "drill sergeant" mentality?  I.e.,
being harder (in this case, MUCH harder) on those students in which
he recognizes potential for great achievement, encouraging them to
push themselves along harder?  Of course, he is also building esprit
de corps among the houses at the same time:

Slytherins:  "we are the chosen few"
Gryffindors: "we the persecuted must look out for one another"

It would be interesting to know what Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff students
think of Snape.

Cheers,
-Louis

I think it is perfectly obvious why Snape is so mean to Harry, now that I
have had a few weeks on this list and read the books too many times to count
.. and that doesnt even include searching for a reference.

Snape is AD's spy in Voldemort's camp. Well, who is to say that Voldemort
does not have his own spies at Hogwarts?  Snape must realize that he is
going to have to face Voldemort, sooner or later. As long as he appears to
"serve Voldemort" in his actions, and he is clever enough at coming up with
a "reason," he will be given the benefit of the doubt by V.  I can just hear
him saying, "But your Lordship, I tried to trip Potter up at every turn.
Dumbledore had him too well protected."

Why does he dislike the "new" DADA teachers? Why was he so hostile towards
Sirius Black? Maybe the answers to all of these questions is that he
suspects them of possibly being one of Voldemort's spies and Snape figures
it is better to keep his distance until he works it out. What better way to
keep his distance than to appear to be nasty? For that matter, he knows that
if Harry gets too close and figures him out, it could be dangerous for both
of them.

Doreen who thinks that Snape is a diamond in the rough





From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 18:42:19 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:42:19 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] was Father figures, Snape, Dumbledore and Hogwarts ... now Snape/?
References: <20010321171247.60029.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00f301c0b236$a9fbbf40$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14854



Magda said:
<pruned>
A finally-grown-up-and-mature Snape, with a good woman at his side
and a transforming experience behind him, would be a good headmaster.
 My money's on this outcome.

MY guess is that you would be first in line to apply for the job. hee hee

How about Trelawny? hmmm S/T ... now there is a ship that I think would have
real class and fantastic atmosphere. Is there such a boat afloat in the
Hogwarts' waters?

Doreen






From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 18:51:36 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:51:36 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... or Snape either...
References: <99ar22+rql9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <010701c0b237$f6f57240$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14855




--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
Abgela:  Here is why I think Draco is officially evil

Meanness and nastiness do not equal evil. (*cough*
Snape. *cough*)

Cassie

Ahem! I saw that! What makes you so sure that Snape is the evil one?
Doreen


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From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 21 18:50:16 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:50:16 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: was Father figures,  ... Snape, Hogwarts, &  Hermione
References: <99apac+mco3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB8F7E8.85745798@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14856

brill at virginia.edu wrote:

> Has anyone considered the possibility that at least part of Snape's
> animosity toward H/H stems from a "drill sergeant" mentality?  I.e.,
> being harder (in this case, MUCH harder) on those students in which
> he recognizes potential for great achievement, encouraging them to
> push themselves along harder?  Of course, he is also building esprit
> de corps among the houses at the same time:
>
> Slytherins:  "we are the chosen few"
> Gryffindors: "we the persecuted must look out for one another"

There was a thread a few months back, when I posted a theory that Snape
was doing Draco no favors and knew it, because by favoring him he kept
Draco from learning how to deal with difficulty. On the other hand,
Harry et al. are learning to overcome and live through adversity. If you
want I can try to look up the message numbers.

But I think this may be part of Snape's whole modus operandi, too.
That's why he's so complicated---all of these theories make a certain
amount of sense and are probably true to a degree.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Wed Mar 21 18:56:22 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:56:22 -0000
Subject: Stouffer Woman?: I need a Patronus!!!
In-Reply-To: <99arrq+rkbb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99atgm+teid@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14858

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> (quite a bit shorted)
> 
> 
> *Waving my sequoia wand with its core of thunderbird feather and 
> trying again and again until my hair is fairly crackling with 
> electricity*
> 
> > EXPECTO PATRONUS!!!
> 
> The hag rolls away, 
> babbling incoherently, legal papers and press releases clutched in 
in 
> her taloned hands. The ink runs! They are wet and she is wet, and 
we 
> all know she is wet, and so.... suddenly.... 
> 
> She is nothing!*

Part of an Interview with N.K Stouffer (available at her site 
realmuggles.com)
"I have also had a number of profane e-mails from avid HP fans, using 
terminology claimed from JKR's books. (...) I don't believe I could 
ever be proud of the fact that my work was encouraging young readers 
to feel that it's okay to attack anyone, the way they have violated 
me. Especially, because I'm the victim in this case, not Ms. Rowling."

...anyone feeling guilty...? ;)





From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 19:02:53 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:02:53 -0000
Subject: Stouffer Woman?: I need a Patronus!!!
In-Reply-To: <99atgm+teid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99atst+rtc9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14859

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> Part of an Interview with N.K Stouffer (available at her site 
> realmuggles.com)
> "I have also had a number of profane e-mails from avid HP fans, 
using 
> terminology claimed from JKR's books. (...) I don't believe I could 
> ever be proud of the fact that my work was encouraging young 
readers 
> to feel that it's okay to attack anyone, the way they have violated 
> me. Especially, because I'm the victim in this case, not Ms. 
Rowling."
> 
> ...anyone feeling guilty...? ;)

Is a Patronus profane? Come on, I just got her paperwork wet! And 
Sirius is a fine distraction!




From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 21 19:05:33 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:05:33 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] was Father figures, Snape, Dumbledore and Hogwarts  ... now Snape/?
References: <20010321171247.60029.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> <00f301c0b236$a9fbbf40$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3AB8FB7D.87B74A79@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14860

Doreen wrote:

> How about Trelawny? hmmm S/T ... now there is a ship that I think
> would have real class and fantastic atmosphere. Is there such a boat
> afloat in the Hogwarts' waters?

I doubt it. Snape, as someone pointed out, does not suffer fools gladly,
and considering his initial speech about wand-waving (which is pretty
precise), I think he'd definitely consider divination foolish. At least
Trelawney's brand.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Wed Mar 21 19:15:33 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:15:33 -0000
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... or Snape either...
In-Reply-To: <010701c0b237$f6f57240$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99aukl+h17i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14861

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Abgela:  Here is why I think Draco is officially evil
> 
> Meanness and nastiness do not equal evil. (*cough*
> Snape. *cough*)
> 
> Cassie
> 
> Ahem! I saw that! What makes you so sure that Snape is the evil one?
> Doreen

I think Cassie is referring to Harry & Co's. perception that because 
Snape is mean & nasty that he's evil.  

Let's face it, I at least, spent the the first part of PS/SS 
thinking, right along with Harry & Co., that Snape was evil.  It 
wasn't until Quirrel's explanation to Harry at the end of the book 
that I said 'Oh, then he's one of us!' & stopped thinking of him that 
way.  

Peace & Plenty,

Parker (applying for the position of Snape's wife)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...' Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> 
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted 
to the
> HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort 
through
> the messages they want to read and those they don't.
> 
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, 
point your
> cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to 
join
> now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
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> 
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Mar 21 19:17:50 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:17:50 -0000
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... or Snape either...
In-Reply-To: <010701c0b237$f6f57240$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99auou+tpcv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14862

Cass: Meanness and nastiness do not equal evil. (*cough*
> Snape. *cough*)
> 
Doreen:Ahem! I saw that! What makes you so sure that Snape is the 
evil one?
> Doreen
------------------------------------
> 
Eh? No, no. I was using Snape as an example of "mean and nasty does 
NOT equal evil." Snape is as mean and nasty as they come but I think 
there's enough canon evidence that we can confidently say he isn't 
evil. I quite like Snape, actually.

Cassie





From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Mar 21 19:25:44 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:25:44 -0600
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... (a bit on strong female characters too)
References: <99ahgd+lsls@eGroups.com> <009d01c0b22a$fe97b6a0$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3AB90038.48BD9C93@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14863

Hi --

Doreen wrote:

> Heidi quoted: "Too late now,  Potter. They'll be the first to go, now
> the Dark Lord's back - Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first,  Well -
> second -
> Diggory was the f..."
>
> Heidi commented: The speaker thinks that what he's saying is
> completely true - he knows that Voldemort has returned and it doesn't
> take a full fledged Death Eater to conclude that he'll go after
> muggle-born and muggle- supportive wizards - in fact, it's implied
> that everyone around
> Harry's bedside believes the same thing. And Cedric Diggory *was* the
> first person to be killed by Voldemort in this second reign of
> terror.
>
> Why is this a malicious statement? Because of how he sounded when he
> said it? Because he was warning them - and trying to smile to look
> reassuring, not realizing that he was completely failing at it? We
> really do *not* know what he was thinking when he said this - and
> yes, it could be horrible, he could have the worst intentions in the
> world. It's entirely possible.
>
> But Crookshanks didn't jump at him...so maybe he didn't....
>
> Doreen responded: Draco is not just evil in that reference, but
> throughout the entire series. The only time he is not evil to Harry
> was in the robe fitting room, but even then, he was not nice in his
> references to other students. It didn't take Harry or most readers
> much time at all to figure out what Draco Malfoy was all about. Even
> his name suggests this: mal- "bad, badly, abnormal,
> inadequate"
>
> Draco and his allies are mean to other students; disrespectful to
> Hagrid
> when he was teaching; they show no respect even to Dumbledore during a
>
> couple of his speeches in the Great Hall. The references are too
> numerous to name, but it would make for an interesting list.
>

Cassie wrote a great response to this thread, so I won't repeat her
points about the potential for Draco redemption (I do agree that JKR has
not foreclosed his redemption).

I would like to point out though that Heidi is also noting that we don't
*know* what's going on inside Draco's head.  It's that pesky
point-of-view (POV) problem again.  There are lots of issues that we
debate on this group from time to time, and the limited Harry POV means
that we really can't reach any definitive conclusions with any of these
threads.

For example: the strong female characters argument is recirculating at
the moment.  Back last fall, I noted that we are viewing these stories
through the lens of a 11-14 yr old boy.  He's not going to see (and so
we're not going to see) things like Hermione having a mentoring
relationship with McGonagall, McGonagall shining at a staff meeting,
Molly Weasley working on a manuscript for a novel, Hermione and Ginny
having a heart-to-heart talk one night .... etc.  There could be lots of
potential for strong female interaction, strong female role models &
strong characters that we just don't see.  There are lots of things we
don't see -- but we cannot assume that they absolutely don't happen.

<FF paragraph>: But, back to Draco.  A brief mention of Heidi's ongoing
fanfic Surfeit of Curses is in order.  She puts a really amazing &
plausible spin on all the Draco interactions with the Trio (esp. Bks 3 &
4), and I was admittedly blown away by the scenario & Draco's
motivations that she came up with for the scene on the train.  Apologies
to those of you who have no use for fanfiction (it's not *all* about
shipping -- there's this whole other aspect of getting inside the heads
of other characters too).  </FF>

We don't know what Draco thinks.  At all.  We know what he *says* from
time to time .... but what motivates him and what's he really thinking
-- we don't any of those things.

I agree with Cassie -- I don't want to believe that Draco is
irredeemable or that JKR has set him up to just be a black&white
cardboard cut-out of his father.  I'd like to think there's more
complexity to his character than that -- just like all the Snape fans
like to believe in his complexity (not that I don't agree that Snape is
complex -- he is).  Many of us believe our hero Harry will have to
confront choices & dilemnas, and it will be revealed that he faces moral
obstacles & has struggles.  He has a dark side, and I think eventually
he must confront it.  I'd like to think that Draco likewise has a good
side and that he too will have choices to make.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kenc at cse.iitb.ac.in  Wed Mar 21 19:24:53 2001
From: kenc at cse.iitb.ac.in (kenc at cse.iitb.ac.in)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:24:53 -0000
Subject: Stouffer Woman?
In-Reply-To: <00a901c0b22d$3f892980$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99av65+jmj8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14864

I was just going over the Infringement examples chart - plainly
PATHETIC! I mean, treating "Boats travel across lake" and "Great Hall"
as infringement!!

On the other hand, it is possible to see how this poor woman's (?)
delusions came about - Larry/Harry and Lilly/Lily Potter; Muggles; boy
with spectacles etc.

Then again, I'm not too clear on copyright laws. For eg. if I were to
write a story set in (say) Trantor, and Trantor was an island in the
Pacific (in my fic, at least) - would I still be violating the law?

OTOH, the similarities are rather close ... coincidence? If I were in
NKS's place, I'm not sure I wouldn't have felt something similar
(though I might have gone about it differently ...)

Before I get flamed, I'm not trying to pass judgement on either one
(that's upto the Judge). Just trying to keep an open mind.

Kensy




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 19:26:44 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:26:44 -0000
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... or Snape either...
In-Reply-To: <99auou+tpcv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99av9k+ohe5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14865

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> Cass: Meanness and nastiness do not equal evil. (*cough*
> > Snape. *cough*)
> > 
> Doreen:Ahem! I saw that! What makes you so sure that Snape is the 
> evil one?
> > Doreen
> ------------------------------------
> > 
> Eh? No, no. I was using Snape as an example of "mean and nasty does 
> NOT equal evil." Snape is as mean and nasty as they come but I 
think 
> there's enough canon evidence that we can confidently say he isn't 
> evil. I quite like Snape, actually.


I rather like Snape as well, and I think there are good reasons to 
believe that he will play a very heroic role in the future books.

Draco theoretically could also be redeemed-- he hasn't done anything 
yet that is so awful that I would dump him in with the deatheaters. 
But so far JKR has not said anything to indicate that this is likely, 
and some of the answers she has given to some questions asked of her 
hasve indicated to me that it ISN'T in the cards.

In one interview someone asked her about Draco and she responded that 
he was a terrible person, the kind of boy "who knows exactly what 
will hurt someone most". In a recent interview I think someone asked 
if Draco would ultimately team up with Harry to fight evil and she 
responded "Where do you guys hear these things? No, absolutely not."

I would think that if Draco were possibly heading to redemption we 
would have seen some sign of it by now. I love the fan fiction Draco, 
but the canon Draco appears to be destined for nastiness, and sooner 
or later, evil.




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 19:30:06 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:30:06 -0000
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... (a bit on strong female characters too)
In-Reply-To: <3AB90038.48BD9C93@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99avfu+oh9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14866

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> I agree with Cassie -- I don't want to believe that Draco is
> irredeemable or that JKR has set him up to just be a black&white
> cardboard cut-out of his father.  I'd like to think there's more
> complexity to his character than that -- just like all the Snape 
fans
> like to believe in his complexity (not that I don't agree that 
Snape is
> complex -- he is).  Many of us believe our hero Harry will have to
> confront choices & dilemnas, and it will be revealed that he faces 
moral
> obstacles & has struggles.  He has a dark side, and I think 
eventually
> he must confront it.  I'd like to think that Draco likewise has a 
good
> side and that he too will have choices to make.
> 


I want this very much-- I would find Draco much more interesting if 
he would come to a crossroad and maybe question what his father has 
been teaching him. Even if he does end up as an evil character, it 
would show some humanity I would feel it more deeply.

Suzanne




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 21 19:31:34 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:31:34 -0000
Subject: Recognizing McGonagall - D-day - Canon Draco evil?
Message-ID: <99avim+g7ad@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14867

Welcome, morsethanatos!

> On page 13 of Book 1 Professor Dumbledore sits down beside the cat
> and says "Fancy seeing you here, Professor McGonagall." She
> replys: "How did you know it was me?"
>       This is a bit strange as she is a registered animagus.

Animagi and their markings are registered, but that doesn't mean 
their markings are unique.  There could be lots of tabby cats in 
Britain who look almost exactly like the transformed McGonagall.

Doreen wrote:

>maybe he was not going to kill Lily
>because he was going to "use her" to raise Harry ... for his own
>purposes, rather than that purpose for which Harry was born. Maybe
>that is what Lily was really trying to protect Harry from ... and
>also why Voldemort stated that Lily didn't really have to die.

>Now, that the plan has all gone amuck, and Harry has reached an age
>of reasoning and is against Voldemort, he is left with only one
>choice. Destroy Harry before Harry becomes old enough and strong
>enough to destroy him. 

Okay, I really like this, and it's supported by Voldemort's attempt to 
win Harry to his side in PS/SS (a fairly feeble attempt, but 
still...).  But then why did he try to kill Harry when he was still a 
baby?

Come on, don't give up--I know you can figure out a good reason!

Heidi wrote, re: Draco's last sentence of GoF:

>Why is this a malicious statement? Because of how he sounded when he 
>said it? 

Yup, that's about the size of it, though again, I agree that it could 
be an act.  But what about the statement that precedes it:  "you've 
picked the losing side," etc.?  If the "Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers" 
statement is a warning disguised as a taunt, why say that?  Is he 
trying to convince Harry to change sides?  Surely not, if Draco's 
actually a good guy.  

Amy Z

"The more I think about it, the more I think Amy is right." -Susan 
McGee.  (Now if only I could convince more people to adopt that as 
their motto!)




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 19:33:52 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:33:52 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups]  Snape SHIP SHIP SHIP
References: <20010321171247.60029.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> <00f301c0b236$a9fbbf40$2814a3d1@doreen> <3AB8FB7D.87B74A79@texas.net>
Message-ID: <018001c0b23d$dd6f9340$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14868

Doreen wrote:

> How about Trelawny? hmmm S/T ... now there is a ship that I think
> would have real class and fantastic atmosphere. Is there such a boat
> afloat in the Hogwarts' waters?

I doubt it. Snape, as someone pointed out, does not suffer fools gladly,
and considering his initial speech about wand-waving (which is pretty
precise), I think he'd definitely consider divination foolish. At least
Trelawney's brand.

--Amanda

*sigh* then I guess I will just sit on my dessert isle until a ship comes
along that I like. Who all has been paired off with Severus so far? I guess
what I mean is what Snape ships are there available to choose from? And what
exactly is expected from a shipper, besides undying loyalty to the said
named ship?

Doreen, making SOS out of seashells on her beach: Sexy Ole Severus





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Mar 21 19:34:30 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:34:30 -0000
Subject: Stouffer Litigation and IP law
In-Reply-To: <99av65+jmj8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99avo6+hv2o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14869

This is veering off topic - any discussion of IP law in general 
should be moved to the HP4GU-OTCHatter list - but here, I think we're 
close enough with canon to leave it for this email
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., kenc at c... wrote:
> Then again, I'm not too clear on copyright laws. For eg. if I were 
to
> write a story set in (say) Trantor, and Trantor was an island in the
> Pacific (in my fic, at least) - would I still be violating the law?
Um, I don't know what Trantor is, but I can tell you that I remmebr a 
few articles a couple of years back about Katherine Neville, who 
wrote a book called The EIght, part of which took place at a 
(FICTIONAL) french Abbey called Montglane - she seemed tohave a 
problem with a software company that created a game called The 
Treasure of Montglane Abbey. They OBVIOUSLY took it from her novel, 
but as I understand it, they didn't actually file a suit.
However, HOGWARTS is being used by WB as a trademark, to indicate a 
source of goods - and if you set a novel at Hogwarts (setting aside 
all the issues of whether fanfic is an infringement (the answer is 
unlitigated)) you are probably violating a trademark - NOT a 
copyright. 

> OTOH, the similarities are rather close ... coincidence? If I were 
in
> NKS's place, I'm not sure I wouldn't have felt something similar
> (though I might have gone about it differently ...)
I do think the similarities are coincidence. Personally, I've 
wondered if JKR is into musicals in which case "Lily" may've come 
from the stage version of The Secret Garden, where hazel-eyed Mrs 
Craven's name was Lily, and she was killed when her son was a 
baby...not in the same way, of course, but that's what I always think 
of. (There's even a song about Lily's hazel eyes and how her niece 
has the exact same eyes. If that's a coincidence, then the parallels 
to Stouffer have to be.





From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Mar 21 19:29:57 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:29:57 -0600
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... or Snapeeither...
References: <99ar22+rql9@eGroups.com> <010701c0b237$f6f57240$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3AB90135.7B10CF3D@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14870

Hi --

Doreen wrote:

> Cassie said: Meanness and nastiness do not equal evil. (*cough*
> Snape. *cough*)
>
> Doreen replied: Ahem! I saw that! What makes you so sure that Snape is
> the evil one?

Cassie was not saying that Snape is evil.  Exactly the opposite.  She's
saying that Snape is another example of a character who is certainly
irrefutably mean and nasty, but *not necessarily* evil.  Just like Draco
-- he's mean & nasty like Snape, but neither of them are necessarily
evil.  Draco might well be just as complex as Snape!

Hey Doreen -- please try to make some distinguishing barrier between
other people's thoughts (quotes) and your own responses.  I'm having a
really hard time figuring out where your thoughts begin in some
messages.  Put a line of dashes or equal signs or *something* as a
separator between quoted thoughts of others & your responses!  Thanks!!
(That goes for everyone but Doreen's posts are the only ones I'm having
trouble with at the moment).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Wed Mar 21 19:37:29 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:37:29 -0000
Subject: Redemption (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... (a bit on strong female characters too))
In-Reply-To: <3AB90038.48BD9C93@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEIJDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>

No: HPFGUIDX 14871

Penny: "I agree with Cassie -- I don't want to believe that Draco is
irredeemable or that JKR has set him up to just be a black&white cardboard
cut-out of his father.  I'd like to think there's more complexity to his
character than that <snip>"

And equally we have no reason to believe that Lucius will not be redeemed.
Basically this is all up in the air. With the possible exception of
Voldemort any of the 'bad' side could be redeemed.

And on the other side of the coin any of the 'good' side could go bad. Yes
even Harry, though where that would leave the canon is anyone's guess!




Simon
--
Vote for a logo to represent HPforGU. For more details see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/14260
---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From indigo at indigosky.net  Wed Mar 21 19:41:01 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:41:01 -0000
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... (a bit on strong female characters too)
In-Reply-To: <99avfu+oh9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99b04d+4anu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14872

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
I'd like to think that Draco likewise has a 
> good
> > side and that he too will have choices to make.
> > 
> 
> 
> I want this very much-- I would find Draco much more interesting if 
> he would come to a crossroad and maybe question what his father has 
> been teaching him. Even if he does end up as an evil character, it 
> would show some humanity I would feel it more deeply.
> 
> Suzanne

Unfortunately I don't see it happening.

Kids are among the most perceptive people in the world.  They're 
innocent and easily duped like Ginny Weasley, but they're also 
capable of telling right from wrong.

There are real world examples that bear this up.

Kids who had prejudiced parents growing up to not be prejudiced 
themselves.

Draco is, in fairness, jealous of Harry but he's going about handling 
it wrong.  Instead of trying to do his own great deeds, he tries to 
tear down anything of Harry's.

And if he really wanted to outshine Harry, he could be doing things 
to elevate himself in Hogwarts and the eyes of others.  Either he's 
entirely terrified by and cowed by his father, or -- more likely, 
given how he behaves -- buys into it completely and plans to grow up 
to be a Death Eater himself.

If Draco Malfoy had the slightest inkling prejudice was wrong, he 
would not still continually be using the "Mudblood" ephithet, because 
he knows full well it is one. 

He knows full well it is offensive to Harry's trio. 

He knows full well it is considered one of the worst things you can 
say about a person.

A person lacking prejudice would have reflected on this. Maybe not 
apologized for it, but would've at least stopped using that 
particular thorn to nettle his adversaries with.

IMHO, of course.

Indigo
[18 inches, sassafras, phoenix feather -- if you guys have wands, 
that's mine!] 





From kenc at cse.iitb.ac.in  Wed Mar 21 19:43:51 2001
From: kenc at cse.iitb.ac.in (kenc at cse.iitb.ac.in)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:43:51 -0000
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... IS
In-Reply-To: <99ar22+rql9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99b09n+dqlt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14873

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:

> <g> I do believe that the number of pairs of leather pants Draco has 
> in canon continues to stand at zero. I think part of what Heidi's 
> trying to say is this. (And look at it from the writer's
perspective, 
> too.) Draco in canon is a horrid little git. He does all sorts of 
> nasty things. This is incontrovertible. HOWEVER. He has not yet done 
> anything in canon that renders him irredeemable. There is a point 
> that a a character passes where redemption seems not just unlikely 
> but impossible. Draco has not passed that point. Yes, he's mean, yes 

Curiously enuff, I was reminded of Sirius's prank on Snape. How wrong
(and irredeemable) *that* could have been ...




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 19:46:24 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:46:24 -0000
Subject: Snape SHIP SHIP SHIP
In-Reply-To: <018001c0b23d$dd6f9340$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99b0eg+jo5n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14874

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
>Who all has been paired off with Severus so far? I guess
> what I mean is what Snape ships are there available to choose from? 
And what
> exactly is expected from a shipper, besides undying loyalty to the 
said
> named ship?


God this would be easier if he would just use Head and Shoulders and 
learn to whistle!

Seriously, I want to see Snape fall in love. I think he has some 
interestingly hidden fires.

Suzanne




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Wed Mar 21 20:07:33 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:07:33 -0000
Subject: Snape SHIP SHIP SHIP
In-Reply-To: <018001c0b23d$dd6f9340$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99b1m5+lf94@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14875

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Who all has been paired off with Severus so far? I guess
> what I mean is what Snape ships are there available to choose from? 
And what
> exactly is expected from a shipper, besides undying loyalty to the 
said
> named ship?

McGonagall is going strong in the Snape-ship waters...although she IS 
40 years older. But so is Dumbledore to her and more as well, and 
that did not stop any of their shippers.
Then there is Snape/Fleur...I saw a huge diskussion on the subject a 
while ago (not here though). She was supposed to come back to 
Hogwarts to teach Potions as he would finally get the DADA-job, 
making him "go booom" (DS13)
Among the slashpairings we have Harry/Snape, Draco/Snape and 
Dumbledore/Snape (I do deprecate this one...a much devoted slashfan  
I am, but...no)

I?m sure there are others, but there you go.

/Jennifer




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 20:09:48 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:09:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Draco's future (or why I don't want to work today)
In-Reply-To: <99avfu+oh9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010321200948.4271.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14876

> I want this very much-- I would find Draco much more interesting if
> he would come to a crossroad and maybe question what his father has
> been teaching him. Even if he does end up as an evil character, it 
> would show some humanity I would feel it more deeply.

Perhaps Voldemort will demand some sign of Malfoy Senior's devotion
and order him to sacrifice his son (Isaac style).  And Dad - scum
that he is - complies.  Draco's enthusiasm for the Dark Lord would
wither immediately.  Then Harry could save him.

I like this.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 20:12:31 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:12:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape SHIP SHIP SHIP
In-Reply-To: <99b0eg+jo5n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010321201231.4711.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14877

>Who all has been paired off with Severus so far? I guess
> what I mean is what Snape ships are there available to choose
> from? And what exactly is expected from a shipper, besides undying 
> loyalty to the said named ship?

Snape needs someone who's vulnerable and quiet, perhaps someone who's
been hurt by V.'s activities.  Someone he can be a hero to and
protect.  It would help if she's misunderstood or suspected by
others; he could relate to that.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 21 20:27:35 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:27:35 -0000
Subject: Sirius - Snape & McGonagall - Draco's pants
Message-ID: <99b2rn+kj2m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14878

Monika wrote:

>But this raises another question: doesn't anyone find it strange that 
>he was supposed to be Voldy's second in command if he was only 
>21 or 22 in 1981? 

Good point.  I think we hear the "You-Know-Who's right hand man" thing 
from Stan Shunpike, no?  Or is it from Fudge?

If the former, I think it might not be fact, but the embellishment of 
legend.  Stan, who is too young to remember the actual event, got the 
story many times removed, and he's laying it on thick for Harry.  
Oops, I mean Neville.  

Someone correct me if my memory's failing...it frequently does.

Magda wrote:

>But the kids in other houses aren't being trained in the proper
>manner.  Their heads of houses don't appreciate the school like he
>does, don't understand that you can't just let the kids have fun,
>they're there to work and besides it's absolutely sickening the way
>all the other teachers fawn over the FAMOUS Harry Potter - the
>WONDERFUL Harry Potter - the POPULAR Harry Potter - is this any way
>to run a good school?  

LOL, Magda!  I think you're right on, and the more I think about it, I 
bet Snape finds this particularly galling with McGonagall.  My take on 
the two of them is that they have a lot of respect, and probably 
liking, for each other (no, I'm not proposing a ship).  They are both 
very strict, they are passionate about their subjects and are 
(arguably) excellent teachers, they have those monthly Heads of Houses 
meetings over lunch (plus the Heads of the Only Two Houses That Merit 
Any Attention meetings in between), and we see those great moments of 
backing each other up vs. Lockhart in CoS and vs. Fudge in GoF.  I 
think they are both devoted to Dumbledore and to Hogwarts.  I imagine 
them having a mostly friendly rivalry about Quidditch and the House 
Cup that had degenerated somewhat under the strain of six straight 
Slytherin wins.

But anyway, the point is, Snape regards McGonagall as an ally in the 
Battle Against Declining Standards, and in my imagination, as his 
closest friend at Hogwarts.  So he must be really, really upset when 
she, of all people, bends the rules into a veritable pretzel to put 
WONDERFUL Harry Potter on the Quidditch team.  Not only does he have 
to relive having his House's butt kicked by a Potter (okay, I'm 
extrapolating; we don't know for a fact that James ever beat 
Slytherin), but he is now the =only= teacher in this school who really 
respects the rules.  And then she doesn't even expel him and Weasley 
when they fly a car to school.  Et tu, Minerva?

Cassie wrote:

> I do believe that the number of pairs of leather pants Draco has 
>in canon continues to stand at zero.

Oh yeah?  And how do you know?  Has anyone ever looked inside his 
trunk?

Face it, Cassie, you have unleashed a monster.  We're not consigning 
leather-pants-Draco to fanfic willingly.

>Amanda, who for some reason had inordinate trouble typing
>"psychoanalyst"

=stroking chin=  Now, zat is very significant, Ms. Levanski . . .

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
   "Your father thinks very highly of Mad-Eye
 Moody," said Mrs. Weasley sternly.
   "Yeah, well, Dad collects plugs, doesn't he,"
 said Fred quietly, as Mrs. Weasley left the room.  
 "Birds of a feather."
                     -HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------------




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 20:28:40 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:28:40 -0000
Subject: Snape SHIP SHIP SHIP
In-Reply-To: <20010321201231.4711.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99b2to+ruf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14879

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >Who all has been paired off with Severus so far? I guess
> > what I mean is what Snape ships are there available to choose
> > from? And what exactly is expected from a shipper, besides 
undying 
> > loyalty to the said named ship?
> 
> Snape needs someone who's vulnerable and quiet, perhaps someone 
who's
> been hurt by V.'s activities.  Someone he can be a hero to and
> protect.  It would help if she's misunderstood or suspected by
> others; he could relate to that.

I see it coming! Well put!

As a side note, one perceptive child asked Rowling if Snape would 
fall in love. She stumbled a bit over the answer, then said she was 
amazed at the question, then refused to answer ("You will have to 
see!") all of which implies to me that something is cooking for Snape.

Unless of course she is pulling our leg. *wink*




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 20:35:56 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:35:56 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Voldemort's 
References: <99avim+g7ad@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <019901c0b246$89b3f120$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14880

Doreen wrote:

>maybe he was not going to kill Lily
>because he was going to "use her" to raise Harry ... for his own
>purposes, rather than that purpose for which Harry was born. Maybe
>that is what Lily was really trying to protect Harry from ... and
>also why Voldemort stated that Lily didn't really have to die.

>Now, that the plan has all gone amuck, and Harry has reached an age
>of reasoning and is against Voldemort, he is left with only one
>choice. Destroy Harry before Harry becomes old enough and strong
>enough to destroy him. 

Okay, I really like this, and it's supported by Voldemort's attempt to 
win Harry to his side in PS/SS (a fairly feeble attempt, but 
still...).  But then why did he try to kill Harry when he was still a 
baby?

Come on, don't give up--I know you can figure out a good reason!

*******************
Do we know for a fact that Voldemort was trying to kill Harry? 
Where is the proof of that? 
Who were the witnesses? 
Sirius knew that James & possibly Lily were in danger .. the reason for them to hide and Pettigrew to keep their secret.
Why were they in danger? Because of themselves, or because they had Harry?
IMO Harry is the one that Voldemort was after. 
I think the only reason he killed James was because James was his biggest barrier to Harry. 
I dont think Harry was an afterthought but the main reason for Voldemort's visit.
Hagrid & Sirius & Dumbledore knew that Voldemort did, indeed, kill James & Lily, but not Harry.
Why didn't the MOM show up and take the proper steps in the case of an orphaned wizard child?
Why was Harry so special that Hagrid was specifically dispatched by Dumbledore to get to Harry before anyone else could? 
Even Sirius knew the importance of being there first, thereby lending Hagrid his flying motorcycle.
How do we know what spell was used by Voldemort and for what reasons?
Even in Harry's visions, brought on by the Dementors or the Boggarts, does it say that Voldemort was going to kill Harry?
What if the fate that Voldemort had intended for Harry was far worse than killing him, at least in a mother & father's mind? I am sure we can come up with similar instances where parents kill their own children and then kill themselves, rather than face fates worse than death.
Could Voldemort have made a grab for Harry ... and at the same time, Lily grabbed V's wand, and in an attempt to turn it against Voldemort, weakened, but not killed him, and because he was holding Baby Harry, Harry ended up with the scar?
Could Lily and Voldemort have had a standoff kind of battle, which resulted in Harry getting the scar (possibly from a ray deflected off of Voldemort?) and because of the "mother's love power," Lily was able to render Voldemort into his weakened state? 
Was it this great mother-love power that gave her magic added strength? (her wand was not all that special... good for charms but maybe with her mothers-love, it was the edge she needed, not to kill V but to weaken him)
If Lily zapped Voldemort, and because he was touching or holding Harry, and the power of the wand transferred from V to Harry, could this be the explanation as to why the Sorting Hat chose Slytherin first for Harry ... acting on the Voldemort transfer of character vibes in Harry? 
Is this also the reason Harry is a parselmouth?
I never did understand why Voldemort zapping Harry with a spell from his wand would have a backlash effect on Voldemort himself. If this backlash was effective enough to weaken V .. coming from Harry to Voldemort... if Harry got the parselmouth, why didn't Voldemort get some of Harry's good traits? 
I also never understood why a spell from V's wand would transfer anything from and of Voldemort's character, or if it did, why is Harry so nice and not evil like Voldemort?

So many questions ... and so much time ... is it 2001 yet?
Doreen, whose scar is hurting from too much thinking


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Mar 21 20:55:40 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:55:40 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Shipping Posts not using Canon go to OT-Chatter
Message-ID: <3AB9154C.37B4363F@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14881

Hi guys --

The Snape Ship posts belong over in OT-Chatter unless you are using
specific examples from canon to support a particular pairing.

Thanks --

Penny
The Mod Squad




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Wed Mar 21 20:57:34 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:57:34 -0000
Subject: Pronunciation of 'Knuts' (was Re: Crookshanks)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOOEEADEAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <99b4ju+2ehr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14882

Thanks for the replies everyone.  I'm behind again, as per usual, so, 
sorry for the lateness of my post.

> > Kelley:
> > I'm pronouncing the 'K' in Kneazle, as I also do with 'Knut'.  Is 
that wrong, anyone?
>
> Gaynor: 
> I also pronounce Knut with a "K". However, when Daniel Radcliffe 
> presented the cheque on Comic Relief last Friday he pronounced it 
> with a silent K - i.e. "nut". 
> Lots of "kn" words in English are pronounced with a silent k (eg 
> knight, knife, knot etc.) so I suppose the k in "knut" 
and "kneazle" should be silent too...but I have to say I prefer the 
sound of "knut" with a sounded "k"! <<<<<<<<<<<<

I pondered over this same thing during my first read of SS, and 
settled on a sounded 'k' and the 'nut' pronounced as 'noot'...

> >Jim Ferer: 
> >I think a Scandinavian pronunciation would be like you say, Rita, 
> >"ca-noot." Dale's pronunciation, "ca-nut," makes me cringe every > 
> >time I hear it.<<<<<<<

So, you mean JD pronounces it 'nut' as in 'peanut'?  (I've not heard 
any of the audio versions, Dale or Fry.)  Then, on many of the 
pronunciations, Dale went on his own judgment?

> > SML:
> According to the Scholastic pronunciation guide,
> it is pronounced k-noots, with the "k" sound.
> 
> http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/books/pronunciation/play.htm

That's right, thanks SML.  I haven't been back there in a while, and 
this reminded me that Scholastic verified the proninciation I had 
been using.  At the same time, the Scholastic quiz was what verified 
my belief that Hagrid was in Hufflepuff.  Would this mean that all 
these sources--Scholastic, Dale, Fry--are not getting their info from 
JKR directly?  They use their own judgment, and if they turn out to 
be wrong, then they correct it?  (Though, of course, this wouldn't be 
feasible for the audio versions.)

Kelley  




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Mar 21 20:58:02 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:58:02 -0000
Subject: Malfoy redemption
Message-ID: <99b4kq+7jke@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14883


rainylilac: In one interview someone asked her about Draco and she 
responded that he was a terrible person, the kind of boy "who knows 
exactly what will hurt someone most". In a recent interview I think 
someone asked if Draco would ultimately team up with Harry to fight 
evil and she responded "Where do you guys hear these things? No, 
absolutely not."

Snape also knows exactly what to say that will hurt someone most and 
deploys that skill frequently, yet he isn't evil. Also, in my records 
of that chat, she didn't say "no, absolutely not." She said "Don't 
believe everything you hear on the Internet." I 'spose my records 
could be wrong, but IMHO "no, absolutely not" is a very un-JKR 
response. She likes to leave these things open and not give away too 
much information. It's not like her to put the kibosh on a possible 
plot development although is IS like her to throw as much confusion 
towards that plot development as possible. So far in chat she's 
pretty much answered Malfoy-redemption related questions the way I 
would if I was planning on redeeming the little sucker.

Simon Branford, mail-order doctor: And equally we have no reason to 
believe that Lucius will not be redeemed. Basically this is all up in 
the air. With the possible exception of Voldemort any of the 'bad' 
side could be redeemed.

Lucius is a lot farther along the "bad" path than Draco is. Lucius is 
almost without doubt a murderer, and I consider him a murderer at 
least by intent in Book 2 (the basilisk would have slaughtered the 
muggle-born students of Hogwarts not to mention the death of Ginny 
Weasley.) He's a slimy child-killer and it'd take an Act of God to 
redeem him; that's not the case with Draco.

Rainylilac: Unfortunately I don't see it happening.
Kids are among the most perceptive people in the world.  They're 
innocent and easily duped like Ginny Weasley, but they're also 
capable of telling right from wrong.
There are real world examples that bear this up.
Kids who had prejudiced parents growing up to not be prejudiced 
themselves.
Draco is, in fairness, jealous of Harry but he's going about handling 
it wrong.  Instead of trying to do his own great deeds, he tries to 
tear down anything of Harry's.
And if he really wanted to outshine Harry, he could be doing things 
to elevate himself in Hogwarts and the eyes of others.  Either he's 
entirely terrified by and cowed by his father, or -- more likely, 
given how he behaves -- buys into it completely and plans to grow up 
to be a Death Eater himself.
If Draco Malfoy had the slightest inkling prejudice was wrong, he 
would not still continually be using the "Mudblood" ephithet, because 
he knows full well it is one. 
He knows full well it is offensive to Harry's trio. 
He knows full well it is considered one of the worst things you can 
say about a person.
A person lacking prejudice would have reflected on this. Maybe not 
apologized for it, but would've at least stopped using that 
particular thorn to nettle his adversaries with.

Um...yes. Nobody's arguing that Draco isn't a bigoted little prick, 
in fact its been reiterated over and over even by those of us agruing 
that he's redeemable. Not one person is arguing that Draco is nice; 
not one person is arguing that he isn't a bigot and a pest and a 
mean, unpleasant, bullying sort of child. He picks on the weak and 
cheats and lies and is completely prejudiced. Stating all those 
facts, IMHO, goes nowhere in arguing against his possible redemption; 
we all accept that that's how he's portrayed and most likely how he 
is. "Draco is, in fairness, jealous of Harry but he's going about 
handling it wrong" is, IMHO, the understatement that ate 
Hogwarts. "Handling it wrong" doesn't even approach how rotten Draco 
generally is. It's not really relevant to the arguement though.

I don't even argue that Draco WILL be redeemed; I have only argued 
that narratively, it would be possible for JKR to redeem him without 
invalidating the universe and characters that she has created. Wheras 
it would be impossible for Harry to, say, become buddies with Peter 
Pettigrew without invalidating what we know of both of them so far.

Do you really think that Snape wasn't pretty much exactly like Draco 
when he was at school? (Only possibly less popular and Draco probably 
has cleaner hair.) I wouldn't be surprised if he went around spouting 
off about Muggles and Mudbloods. He joined the Death Eaters, after 
all. And his redemptive possibilites are quite clear in canon.

Lastly, I'm afraid I don't see how the fact that kids are perceptive 
ties in with anything relating to Draco's evilness or lack therof. Do 
you mean an eleven-year-old child with little to no experience of the 
outside world should be able to see right through everything his 
father has ever told him to be true? I suppose one could cite Harry 
seeing through the Dursleys but there's a HUGE disctinction there 
which is that the Dursleys are unkind to Harry and give him no 
attention at all, wheras it certainly looks from canon like Lucius 
gives Draco plenty of attention as well as expensive brooms. Or are 
you saying that the fact that the fact that Harry and Hermione and 
Ron perceive him to be an evil git therefore means he is one? (Not 
like they haven't been wrong about people before.) Maybe I just don't 
understand what you were trying to say.


kenc: Curiously enuff, I was reminded of Sirius's prank on Snape. How 
wrong (and irredeemable) *that* could have been ...

Yes, excellent point.

Magda: Perhaps Voldemort will demand some sign of Malfoy Senior's 
devotion and order him to sacrifice his son (Isaac style).  And Dad - 
scum that he is - complies.  Draco's enthusiasm for the Dark Lord 
would wither immediately.  Then Harry could save him. I like this.

You have just described the plot of every Harry/Draco slash fic ever 
written, pretty much. *giggles madly* Have a virtual brownie.


Cassie






From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 21 21:01:23 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:01:23 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vernon knowing Dumbledore and a question
Message-ID: <F93E8NpqhNPPzQT456U000070e1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14884

>> >> **it only makes sense that a witch/wizard or two would be at
> >>Petunia's wedding -- maybe that's when Vernon met Dumbeldore.**
> >
> > No to poke holes in your theory, but I do ask you to imagine that
> > situation.  Considering the depth and intensity of Petunia's and
> > Vernon's prejudice, I sincerely doubt that anyone from the
> > wizarding world present at that wedding
> > would be "out of the closet" (to borrow a term).
>
>Remember in HPPS/SS, when Vernon saw wizards and witches in their
>robes on his drive into the city to go to work and he thought they
>were members of some strange group collecting money in public?  And
>as they waited for Hagrid on Privet Drive, McGonegall commented to
>Dumbledore that some w's and w's were getting careless and being seen
>in public?
>
>Vernon and Petunia hate magic because it's different and weird and
>wouldn't fit into their neighbourhood.
>
>__________________________________________________
Poke away. lol. The reference is (by McGonegall, PS?SS chapter 1) "...not 
even dressed in Muggle clothes..." -- not that they shouldn't be seen in 
public at all.  My take is that to someone as uptight as Vernon, Dumbledore 
in a Muggle suit and tie is still going to come across as a crackpot the 
moment he says something (...or gives you socks for a wedding present :).
I also relate Petunia's attitude to Filch's.  If you can't be them, berate 
them.
This thought isn't mine - I read it somewhere in an HP site/message/? but 
don't remember who to attribute it to (it keeps me on my train to "unlikely" 
land, though :).  Someone noted that as a younger man, Dumbledore was 
described (in CS) as having auburn hair (chapter 13) and Lily as having dark 
red hair (PS/SS "The Mirror of Erised").  The Deep Thinker I'm paraphrasing 
implied the possibility that there might be a familial relationship between 
Dumbledore (Gramps/great Gramps) and Lily. (Please forgive me DT, if I've 
added to or detracted from your thoughts.  I intend no harm, and do not mind 
correction.)
That would make Dumblebore the magical Gran/Gramps figure in my theory, and 
would certainly give him reason to attend the weddings of both Petunia and 
Lily. Even though his dear grandchild had decided to completely shun the 
magical community, he would still attend the ceremony (dressed in Muggle 
clothes and doing his best Muggle impression).  After all, Petunia might 
change her mind someday and until then, the least he could do is show her 
that he respected her decision.
a.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 21:09:39 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:09:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... or Snape either... fences between posts 
References: <99ar22+rql9@eGroups.com> <010701c0b237$f6f57240$2814a3d1@doreen> <3AB90135.7B10CF3D@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <01bf01c0b24b$40fd3040$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14885

Cassie said: Meanness and nastiness do not equal evil. (*cough*Snape. *cough*)
>
> Doreen replied: Ahem! I saw that! What makes you so sure that Snape is
> the evil one?

Cassie was not saying that Snape is evil.  Exactly the opposite.  She's
saying that Snape is another example of a character who is certainly
irrefutably mean and nasty, but *not necessarily* evil.  Just like Draco
-- he's mean & nasty like Snape, but neither of them are necessarily
evil.  Draco might well be just as complex as Snape!

****************************************************************************************
Doreen says, "Oh!" Silly me .. I did misunderstand. Missing my nap just is not good for comprehension. In that case, Cassie, YOU GO GIRL!!!!
*****************************************************************************************

Hey Doreen -- please try to make some distinguishing barrier between
other people's thoughts (quotes) and your own responses.  I'm having a
really hard time figuring out where your thoughts begin in some
messages.  Put a line of dashes or equal signs or *something* as a
separator between quoted thoughts of others & your responses!  Thanks!!
(That goes for everyone but Doreen's posts are the only ones I'm having
trouble with at the moment).

Penny
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Yes, I noticed that as well. A couple of times I started to read my own posts by mistake. I remember thinking, "Brilliant girl here! ... oh that was Amy speaking .. thought it was Doreen."
I think I already had the barrier in place in my long winded Harry & Voldemort novelette. *smile*
Doreen, practicing with different barriers ... do ya like this one? sorta look like lil slanted HP glasses, dont they?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 21 21:25:01 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:25:01 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gender balance If HP were a girl
In-Reply-To: <F9368bxFIOmvHbp82xO000058b8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010321131146.00aa2cd0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14886

At 11:31 AM 3/21/01 +0100, Sofie 'Melle' Werkers wrote:
>Hm. I don't think so. I think the main reason so few boys read books with
>girl protagonists is the same as why *I* never really read them. They tend
>to be, well, ... boring. At least the ones that were available to me when I
>was young. Girl protagonists have a tendency to be goody-two-shoes whose
>biggest worry seemed to be to keep their parents together or help some poor,
>starving family or whatnot.

You make a good point.  The lack of appeal of books with girl heroines
is probably more the fault of the authors with their pre-defined ideas
of sex roles than of the readers.  True, there will always be the
offspring of male chauvanist pigs, trained to dismiss such heriones
as "Too butch"; but I think in general, "Jo March, Space Adventurer",
"Polyanna vs. the Polymorph", and "Rose Campbell and the Oatmeal
of Fire" would have probably been gobbled up by boys.



                                                 -- Dave




From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 21 21:25:21 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:25:21 -0800
Subject: trademark ? (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stouffer Woman?)
Message-ID: <F117JGWSa1aNEVJpjc000007032@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14887

::From safely behind my castle walls with moat filled and gates barred::

... so if I started publishing a newsletter called "The Daily Prophet" or 
registered "thedailypropet.com", I would be violating a trademark 
(agreement/regulation/policy?)?

Had this argument with a friend recently regarding the domain names...

If this has already been covered, we don't have to go into it again. A 
simple yes/no/maybe will suffice. <g>
a.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 21:37:32 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:37:32 -0600
Subject: Redemption (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ... (a bit on strong female characters too))
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEIJDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <01c401c0b24f$2567e420$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14888

<big chunks>
And on the other side of the coin any of the 'good' side could go bad. Yes
even Harry, though where that would leave the canon is anyone's guess!

Simon

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
# # # # #
(anyone for Pixie tic tac toe?)

Even Harry? What? Our child? Bad? Harry go bad?

Well, there is that instance where he held a grudge against his best friend
for way longer than I thought was necessary.
And then there was the time when he and that Weasley kid nicked the dad's
car and took it for a joy ride and wrecked it.
And how many times has he been caught, not only sneaking out of his room,
but indeed, out of Hogwarts itself, and this after explicit warnings not to
leave the grounds?
He has snooped thru the janitor's private mail.
He has illegally exported a dragon out of the school, and indeed out of the
country.
He and his friends have vandalized library books and tricked teachers into
helping them gain access to forbidden sections of the library.
He and his friends have thwarted Dumbledore's own instructions NOT to be on
the third floor in the room where the trapdoor is.
Harry and his friends have stolen property from the Potions Master's private
stock.

I am sure by now, that you have gotten my drift ...but the list could go on
& on...

Actually, I see all of this as amusing OTOH and eyebrow raising on the
other.
Yes, I do realize it is just a book ... and I dont know why people bother to
remind us of that. Sure, if they did not make these numerous infractions,
the story would be boring as hell and no self-respecting kid would bother
reading it. When I shut off my computer or close my books, then, and only
then is HP just a book. When I am reading, listening to Jim Dale, or sharing
with this group, it is real ... very real.

Why does Harry Potter work for kids? (and when I say "kids" I mean the short
people below the ages of say 16... and also all of us who are old enough to
realize that the more of your childhood you can retain in your heart, the
happier you can be in your life)

Harry Potter works for kids because all kids want to have adventures and get
away with breaking the rules.

So, does this make Harry a bad kid? No, it just makes him a normal kid. I
guess, as far as Draco goes, he is not a bad kid either, more a product of
his stinking environment.  He is not evil, but rather lives with evil. He is
a bully, though. I will give you evil ... but I am not gonna budge off of
bully.

Doreen, who is glad that she is not Harry Potter's mom when it comes time
for teacher/parent meetings.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
# # # # #






From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 21 22:01:14 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:01:14 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stouffer Woman?
In-Reply-To: <3AB8E392.CA037868@sympatico.ca>
References: <99aikg+4fpe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010321135621.00ab84c0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14889

At 12:23 PM 3/21/01 -0500, Jamieson wrote:
>The following is an excerpt:
>
>HAS YOUR LIFE BEEN THREATENED? Yes. I have received several threats to
>my life. The F. B. I. has been notified. I have also had a number of 
>profane e-mails from
>avid HP fans, using terminology claimed from JKR's books. It makes me 
>wonder what
>they have gained from reading Ms. Rowling's work. I don't believe I could 
>ever be proud
>of the fact that my work was encouraging young readers to feel that it's 
>okay to attack
>anyone, the way they have violated me. Especially, because I'm the victim 
>in this case,
>not Ms. Rowling. Even more disconcerting, is the fact that they are 
>certainly aware of the
>substance of some of the chat room conversations and their fans' intent, 
>and have taken
>no action to discourage this profane and life-threatening behavior. And, 
>in the absence of
>any corrective action on their part, are in fact encouraging it. I have to 
>ask parents---is
>  this really what we want for our children?

Sounds to me like on top of everything else she's trying to cozy up to the "Ban
Harry Potter" brigade.  I think she's out to maliciously vilify JKR in any 
way she
can, to satisify her insane jealousy.



                                                 -- Dave




From hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com  Wed Mar 21 21:57:50 2001
From: hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com (Sara Metz)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:57:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gender balance If HP were a girl
Message-ID: <20010321.155751.-267597.0.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14890


OK, slightly bizarre question...
	If Harry was a girl, and the books were just as big as they really are,
and we were all on this list (only with a slightly modified title) do you
think we would be having long tortuous discussions over who deserved to
date Ron more, Girl-Harry or Hermione?

Sara	
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Proud of my **120%** Harry Potter Obsession Rating (Thank you,
fanfiction!)

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Mar 21 22:04:24 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:04:24 -0000
Subject: Gender balance
In-Reply-To: <99as31+43qe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99b8h8+blb8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14891

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Ministry officials:  *all* who are named are men (we do encounter 
> unnamed "ministry witches").  
> 
I am a terminal nitpicker so I have to point out that Bertha Jorkins 
worked for the MOM, as did the witch whose name I forget who signed 
the letter in COS to Harry about illegal use of magic at the Dursleys 
(when Dobby dropped the pudding).

Which does not in any way detract from the point of your post about 
the dominance of men in the HP books, which I happen to agree with.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From margdean at erols.com  Wed Mar 21 22:26:06 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:26:06 -0500
Subject: Redemption (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil  ... )
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEIJDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3AB92A7E.DCDED7DB@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14892

Simon wrote:
> 
> Penny: "I agree with Cassie -- I don't want to believe that Draco is
> irredeemable or that JKR has set him up to just be a black&white cardboard
> cut-out of his father.  I'd like to think there's more complexity to his
> character than that <snip>"
> 
> And equally we have no reason to believe that Lucius will not be redeemed.
> Basically this is all up in the air. With the possible exception of
> Voldemort any of the 'bad' side could be redeemed.

Although I'd say there's more chance for Draco simply because
he's younger.  But first, I think, he'd have to come to care for
someone apart from his own precious self.

I also can't help wondering if we're ever going to encounter any
wizarding-world aristocrats who truly =are= gentlewizards and
-witches.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From scapp77 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 22:12:13 2001
From: scapp77 at yahoo.com (scapp77 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:12:13 -0000
Subject: HP Obsession rating
Message-ID: <99b8vt+saqb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14893

Hello All,

     I am a new member to this group, and have been basically just 
reading up on posts for the past couple of days.  One thing that I 
have noticed is some members have put a HP obsession % in.  My 
question is, is there some sort of quiz to take that rates how 
obsessed you are?  If so, I'd definitely like to try it.  :)

     I'm probably going to be doing some more reading over the next 
few days until I become more familiar with the topics.  So, hopefully 
soon, I will be able to join in  the chats.

Bye for now,
Toni




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 21 22:16:43 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:16:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vernon knowing Dumbledore  ... secrets
References: <F93E8NpqhNPPzQT456U000070e1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <01dd01c0b254$9e8fe000$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14894

Not sure who said this:
Vernon and Petunia hate magic because it's different and weird and
wouldn't fit into their neighbourhood.

@  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @ 
(little Dudley pigtails)

What a perfect place to hide a wizard baby until he is old enough to take wizarding lessons! 
Arrives there via Hagrid, overseen by none other than Dumbledore & McGonagall.

The only other person who knows about this "secret" is Sirius Black. 
I am not all that clear on how a secret place works ... but it is my understanding that if the secret were placed with one person, then this person could keep the "secret" of where the hidden person is from the enemy. 

Who would be the secret keeper in Harry's case? Gee, wouldn't be great if it were Sirius, who missed his chance to keep Harry's parents safe by passing the job to Pettigrew? He is, after all, Harry's godfather. I think this makes sense. Do you?

For whatever the reason is that Voldemort wanted Harry as a baby... and now wants him dead, he could not even begin to harm Harry until he was 11 because he did not know where he was being kept. 

Even the MOM did not step in until AFTER Harry started school. So, I think the secret was kept from them too. Why? Because of who might be on Voldemorts side or spying for him and who might kill Harry off to gain favor with Voldemort, just as Barty Jr. tried  but failed.

Even now, that Harry is at school, who all knows where he lives? Owl posts don't count, because Harry can send owl posts to Sirius without knowing where they go.

I know the Weasleys know where Harry lives. He probably told them. They are surely not going to tell anyone like Malfoy Harry's address. I don't think Dumbledore or McGonagall would leave it on any form or books for a V spy to see. 

I think this "secret" is the Dursleys' house and it is one of the barriers that Dumbledore spoke of in GoF. How better guarded from witches and wizzards could a place be than the last place one would suspect? 

By the same token that Petunia did not speak about Lily, perhaps Lily did not speak about Petunia & Vernon. One would have to be pretty close to Lily to know about Petunia & Vernon's existence. If I were looking for a most important wizard baby of James & Lily Potter's stature, I would be combing the wizard world ... and who knows how long that would take? Lily was a witch. Why would anyone think to look among the Muggles? Perhaps they did look among the Muggles. Even most of the Muggles were unaware of the child who slept in the closet, under the steps, even those closest to the Dursleys. 

Stepping off on a long branch here, what if the Dursleys were involved? Could that explain why Petunia is always craning her neck to watch the law-abiding neighbors? Could that be why they don't take Harry anywhere? For his own safety? Could that be why Harry wears cast-off Dudley clothes? To not cause suspicion about purchasing clothing for a child who is not Dudley's size? 
Didn't Petunia leave his bangs/fringes (to cover his scar) when she all but shaved the rest of his head?
They never leave Harry with anyone BUT Mrs. Figg. When they can't get Mrs. Figg, they opt to take him with them. And leaving him in the car is worse than keeping him in sight. Maybe they know Dumbledore very well and they know better than to lose Harry by neglect. 

Now I think I know why lawyers and detectives get paid so much. 
Doreen 
@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 22:44:19 2001
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:44:19 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vernon knowing Dumbledore  ... secrets
References: <F93E8NpqhNPPzQT456U000070e1@hotmail.com> <01dd01c0b254$9e8fe000$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <003b01c0b258$79efd1c0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14895

Woah!  Doreen!  Did you go to my high school?  I grew up with people who would read into books like that --I always wondered at that ability, as I'm not usually a "reader-into".
anyway...
**Who would be the secret keeper in Harry's case? Gee, wouldn't be great if it were Sirius, who missed his chance to keep Harry's parents safe by passing the job to Pettigrew? He is, after all, Harry's godfather. I think this makes sense. Do you?** 

Well, that would imply there was an earlier secret-keeper.  Remember, when Harry was being taken to the Dursleys as a little tot, Sirius was on the lam and ended up getting dragged off to Azkaban.  So he couldn't have been the secret keeper at that point.  So who was the first one?

**For whatever the reason is that Voldemort wanted Harry as a baby... and now wants him dead, he could not even begin to harm Harry until he was 11 because he did not know where he was being kept.**

Not to mention he was a slug in Romania... <g>  too bad he couldn't stay that way.  
Ooh...amusing thought.  Anyone else remember the little kid from the campsite at the Quidditch World Cup?  Kevin, the one who wasn't supposed to touch Daddy's wand?  "You bust slug!  You bust slug!" 
teehee...just had to share that, it  popped  into my head just now.  Anyways...

**Stepping off on a long branch here, what if the Dursleys were involved? **

Wow, you are willing to look for the good in everyone! <g>  I tend not to agree with that, just 'cause I greatly dislike the Dursleys, but were it to be true, I think it would definately be an interesting twist...we need to start sending these ideas to JKR.

Abbie, who still loves little Kevin after her nth reading of GoF
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Doreen 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, 21 March, 2001 5:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Vernon knowing Dumbledore ... secrets


  Not sure who said this:
  Vernon and Petunia hate magic because it's different and weird and
  wouldn't fit into their neighbourhood.

  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @  @ 
  (little Dudley pigtails)

  What a perfect place to hide a wizard baby until he is old enough to take wizarding lessons! 
  Arrives there via Hagrid, overseen by none other than Dumbledore & McGonagall.

  The only other person who knows about this "secret" is Sirius Black. 
  I am not all that clear on how a secret place works ... but it is my understanding that if the secret were placed with one person, then this person could keep the "secret" of where the hidden person is from the enemy. 

  Who would be the secret keeper in Harry's case? Gee, wouldn't be great if it were Sirius, who missed his chance to keep Harry's parents safe by passing the job to Pettigrew? He is, after all, Harry's godfather. I think this makes sense. Do you?

  For whatever the reason is that Voldemort wanted Harry as a baby... and now wants him dead, he could not even begin to harm Harry until he was 11 because he did not know where he was being kept. 

  Even the MOM did not step in until AFTER Harry started school. So, I think the secret was kept from them too. Why? Because of who might be on Voldemorts side or spying for him and who might kill Harry off to gain favor with Voldemort, just as Barty Jr. tried  but failed.

  Even now, that Harry is at school, who all knows where he lives? Owl posts don't count, because Harry can send owl posts to Sirius without knowing where they go.

  I know the Weasleys know where Harry lives. He probably told them. They are surely not going to tell anyone like Malfoy Harry's address. I don't think Dumbledore or McGonagall would leave it on any form or books for a V spy to see. 

  I think this "secret" is the Dursleys' house and it is one of the barriers that Dumbledore spoke of in GoF. How better guarded from witches and wizzards could a place be than the last place one would suspect? 

  By the same token that Petunia did not speak about Lily, perhaps Lily did not speak about Petunia & Vernon. One would have to be pretty close to Lily to know about Petunia & Vernon's existence. If I were looking for a most important wizard baby of James & Lily Potter's stature, I would be combing the wizard world ... and who knows how long that would take? Lily was a witch. Why would anyone think to look among the Muggles? Perhaps they did look among the Muggles. Even most of the Muggles were unaware of the child who slept in the closet, under the steps, even those closest to the Dursleys. 

  Stepping off on a long branch here, what if the Dursleys were involved? Could that explain why Petunia is always craning her neck to watch the law-abiding neighbors? Could that be why they don't take Harry anywhere? For his own safety? Could that be why Harry wears cast-off Dudley clothes? To not cause suspicion about purchasing clothing for a child who is not Dudley's size? 
  Didn't Petunia leave his bangs/fringes (to cover his scar) when she all but shaved the rest of his head?
  They never leave Harry with anyone BUT Mrs. Figg. When they can't get Mrs. Figg, they opt to take him with them. And leaving him in the car is worse than keeping him in sight. Maybe they know Dumbledore very well and they know better than to lose Harry by neglect. 

  Now I think I know why lawyers and detectives get paid so much. 
  Doreen 
  @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @



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From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 21 22:49:40 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:49:40 -0800
Subject: (Re: OT chatter ) and "psychic' link/power
Message-ID: <F11WuLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS000074be@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14896

Please, please remember that any topics that are not about canon belong in 
an OT group, not on this list.  The moderators have told us this several 
times.  They have even posted suggestions on how to choose where to post.  I 
don't know why you people can't figure out why your posts belong.

a. (who just hit the send button and addressed an OT message to this group. 
Sorry. I'll try to think first next time. :)

===
"psychic" link/power

If this has been covered, please point me to the thread.
I've been wondering if either Ron or Harry has some kind of "telepathic"? 
ability.  For instance, in PoA (I don't have the book with me) after the 
encounter with Draco in Hogsmead (when invisi-Harry was roughing him up 
outside the Shrieking Shack), Harry runs back through the tunnel so that he 
can get back to Hogwarts before he gets caught outside.  Snape catches Harry 
in the hall and they go to Snape's office.  Snape makes Harry empty his 
pockets. Harry says Ron bought the contents for him.  Ron rushes in and 
says, paraphrasing, "I bought the stuff for him."
1. How did Ron know Harry got caught?
2. How did he know they were in Snape's office?
3. How did he know Snape had made Harry empty his pockets?
4. How did he know Harry had said Ron bought the stuff (and not Hermione)?
Seems to me that if he had been standing outside the door during the whole 
inquisition, he wouldn't have burst in "out of breath" as I remember it, to 
say the he'd gotten the stuff.
Later, in the shrieking shack, when they all blast Snape - could it have 
been Ron or Harry unconciously (for some reason I can't spell that today - 
several typos and it still doesn't look right :) transmitted his intent to 
the other two, and caused them to have the same response?  I mean, I see 
Hermione disagreeing with Snape, and trying to reason with him, but I don't 
really see her facing down a professor with her wand and blasting his wand 
away.  Maybe that's just me.

I think the link may have been there again, stronger in the compartment on 
the train in GoF when they all blasted Malfoy - either Ron or Harry decided 
to blast him, and transmitted the desire/direction to the rest of them, so 
once again they act as one.

Could that be something else Harry got from V. (besides snake-speech)?  V. 
was supposed to be really good at controlling people, wasn't he?

Just another crackpot theory.  Any and all opinions welcome.
a.
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From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Wed Mar 21 23:02:39 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:02:39 -0000
Subject: HP Obsession rating
In-Reply-To: <99b8vt+saqb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99bbuf+jaj6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14897

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., scapp77 at y... wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
>      I am a new member to this group, and have been basically just 
> reading up on posts for the past couple of days.  One thing that I 
> have noticed is some members have put a HP obsession % in.  My 
> question is, is there some sort of quiz to take that rates how 
> obsessed you are?  If so, I'd definitely like to try it.  :)
> 
>      I'm probably going to be doing some more reading over the next 
> few days until I become more familiar with the topics.  So, 
hopefully 
> soon, I will be able to join in  the chats.
> 
> Bye for now,
> Toni

Try the FAQ in the File Selection. There is a lot of things mentioned 
there that newcomers might want to check to feel all the way a member 
of the group (among that, a link to the obsessiontest). 
Enjoy! :)

/Jennifer




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 21 23:05:53 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:05:53 -0000
Subject: Draco, Wizarding Gentry, and Harriet
In-Reply-To: <20010321.155751.-267597.0.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>
Message-ID: <99bc4h+60rp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14898

Interesting discussions!  

Count me in the "Draco is potentially redeemable" crowd.  This debate 
is really one of determinism (Draco choose his future path of his own 
free will) vs. fatalism (Draco is doomed to be a Death Eater like 
Dear Old Dad).  At this point in canon, Draco could actually go 
either way.  

I've posted before about this, about a month or two ago... I do find 
canon Draco very offensive and do not sympathize with him at all.  He 
reminds me of every bigot or racist I've ever personally or 
vicariously encountered.  

But he can be redeemed, under several scenarios.  There's the 
Abraham/Isaac one mentioned earlier... the one I thought of is "what 
if Draco were exiled from the wizarding world and forced to live 
amongst Muggles?"  He'd either sink or swim, and I daresay his 
perceptions would be changed.  

It's easy to hate what you do not understand.

Margaret wrote:

"I also can't help wondering if we're ever going to encounter any
wizarding-world aristocrats who truly =are= gentlewizards and
-witches."

Ooh, what a cool idea.  Be nice, wouldn't it?  ;-)  The Malfoys seem 
to be the closest we've gotten to the gentry in canon... although 
perhaps once we find out more about the Potters, we'll see that they 
fit the bill as well.

Sara Metz wrote:
"OK, slightly bizarre question... if Harry was a girl, and the books 
were just as big as they really are, and we were all on this list 
(only with a slightly modified title) do you think we would be having 
long tortuous discussions over who deserved to date Ron more, Girl-
Harry or Hermione?"

Of course.  Because then you'd have the Ron/Harriet shippers, the 
Ron/Hermione shippers, and the Harriet/Hermione shippers.  And, all 
things being equal in canon... you think Xena/Gabrielle has a lot of 
fan support?  ;-)  The more conservative of my shipmates, I think, 
would just lament the fact that Harriet wasn't a boy.  

I'm intrigued.  Someone should try to write HP fanfic with Harry-As-
Girl.  I couldn't.  The Trio's genders are fixed in my mind... yes, I 
know this is 2001 and there are most likely all sorts of non-
operative spells for these people if they don't like the equipment 
nature or heaven provided them with, but as I said, this is in *my* 
mind.  

Many parallel universes are possible with HP as with everything else. 
The cosmologists argue that a Master Observer/Manipulator (read:  
God) can only inhabit one, and so the existence of an infinite number 
of outcomes cancels out the existence of a Master.  The HP fan's 
application of this principle is that we can speculate as wildly as 
we want.

Fortunately, no matter how many "parallel universes" we come up with 
in fanon... JKR is still in charge of the Authorized Version of 
events.  And thank goodness.  

--Ebony




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Wed Mar 21 23:30:34 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:30:34 -0000
Subject: our wands
Message-ID: <99bdiq+4psm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14900

> --- Indigo:
[18 inches, sassafras, phoenix feather -- if you guys have wands, 
that's mine!] 

18 inches? Dear Lord. Bigger than Hagrids.
(Mine?s 12 ? inches in a certain swedish tree called bj?rk, and 
dragon heart strings!)

/jennifer who had to mentione that





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 21 23:34:15 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:34:15 -0000
Subject: Redemption - MOM Women - "psychic" link
Message-ID: <99bdpn+ao0v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14901

Doreen wrote:

>Harry Potter works for kids because all kids want to have adventures 
and get
>away with breaking the rules.

The truth comes out.  I hope we don't have any "Wacked-Out Christians 
Against Harry Potter" moles on this list . . . ;-)

I guess it's just because I, too, am one of those kids, but I don't 
equate all this rule-breaking with Malfoy's nastiness.  Most of 
Harry's misdeeds don't hurt anyone--and when they do, he is either 
unaware of what he's doing until it's too late (looking at Filch's 
mail--he shouldn't, but Harry doesn't know what Kwikspell is) or 
really sorry when he realizes how thoughtless he's been (nicking the 
car).  Bullying and threatening are way worse than rulebreaking, in my 
book.  I suppose it's possible that Draco does feel remorseful, and we 
just don't know it because we don't get his POV.  I'll go check out 
Surfeit of Curses and see if Heidi can convince me...

>Doreen, who is glad that she is not Harry Potter's mom when it comes 
time
>for teacher/parent meetings.

We're glad you're not Harry's mom, too, Doreen, since you'd have been 
murdered at age 21.  (Tom Lehrer:  "When Mozart was my age . . . he'd 
been dead 12 years."  Ba-DUM-bum!)

All your theories about Was Voldemort Really Trying to Kill Harry? and 
Harry Protection at the Dursleys are amazing.  You could start a 
career as a private eye.

Joywitch wrote:

>I am a terminal nitpicker so I have to point out that Bertha Jorkins 
>worked for the MOM, as did the witch whose name I forget who signed 
>the letter in COS to Harry about illegal use of magic at the Dursleys 
>(when Dobby dropped the pudding).

Terminal Nitpickers unite!  I stand corrected.  I should know better 
than to make a global statement without poring through every page 
first.  But it's more fun to stick my neck out and let someone else 
chime in whatever I've forgotten!

a. wrote:

>Ron rushes in and 
>says, paraphrasing, "I bought the stuff for him."
>1. How did Ron know Harry got caught?
>2. How did he know they were in Snape's office?
>3. How did he know Snape had made Harry empty his pockets?
>4. How did he know Harry had said Ron bought the stuff (and not 
>Hermione)?

This bit drives me crazy too (damn, a flaw in my favorite HP).  Maybe 
it was just irresistible to JKR to have him burst in like that--it 
reminded me of all the scenes in countless movies where person X is in 
a room talking about person Y and person Y walks in and answers 
something person X has just asked, even though person Y was 
supposedly out of earshot.  I mean, does everyone in the movies hang 
around the doorframe, waiting for an opportune moment to walk in?  
Doesn't anyone just walk right in like a normal person?

Maybe someone saw Snape marching Harry to his office, and told Ron, 
who doesn't need to be psychic to know that what Harry now needs is an 
excuse for having the stuff from Hogsmeade.  Ron does run back from 
Hogsmeade already knowing that Harry is going to be in trouble with 
someone because Draco saw his head; that someone is most likely to be 
Snape--the best person for Draco to rat to.  And he might have seen 
the stuff on the desk before blurting out his prepared excuse.

In any case, I find it kind of comical that Ron's excuse is so feeble 
and obviously false, yet Snape can't nail them and has to let them go.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
 "Very haunted up here, isn't it?" said Ron, 
 with the air of one commenting on the weather.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
-------------------------------------------------- 




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 00:11:16 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:11:16 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arithmacy
References: <995ae3+srgs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c0b264$9e287860$93e01b3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14902

> > > The thing that threw me though was that Hermione said "It was my
> > > father's favorite subject." But her parents are both Muggles,
> > right??
> >
> > Where does she say this? I must have missed it.
>
>
> PoA, I think. But it might have been GoF. I will search. I am
POSITIVE
> she said this.

There is mention of this in CoS -- when Fudge comes to take Hagrid to
Azakaban and L. Malfoy shows up to inform Dumbledoore he's suspended
as headmaster. M comments on the attacks on Muggle-born students.
Later on Draco syrups up Snape to apply for the headmaster position
and "wonders" why the other muggle-born students haven't packed and
left school cause he thinks the next one attacked will die. Needlessly
to say who Draco hoped would have died.

Rena


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From gregg_baeckler at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 00:50:59 2001
From: gregg_baeckler at yahoo.com (gregg_baeckler at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:50:59 -0000
Subject: Sorting hat must be broken
Message-ID: <99bi9j+bitf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14903

I apologise if this has been raised already... I didn't find it in 
the archives.

In the first book the sorting hat sings a little song before sorting 
the 1st year students.  It lists the house virtues...

Gryffindor = brave at heart
Hufflepuff = just and loyal
Ravenclaw = ready mind
Slytherin = cunning, willing to use any means

Consider the personalities of Harry, Ron, and Hermoine through the 
four books and match them with houses.

Harry could be G (obvious) or S (considering his willingness to break 
the rules and wander under invisibility cloaks).  No problem there.

Ron is Harry's faithful sidekick and belongs in Hufflepuff.

Hermoine is the ultimate brainiac... and belongs in Ravenclaw.

Why on earth are they all in Gryffindor??  I understand that they are 
all brave, but I would be hard pressed to list bravery before 
academic talent as Hermoine's chief virtue.





From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 01:00:19 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:00:19 EST
Subject: gender balance/strong women
Message-ID: <c1.c9a1f79.27eaa8a3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14904

This is an update of a post I wrote about a year ago.

Someone wrote that they didn't understand critics' suggestion that there were 
not very many strong female characters, after all,  there is Hermione.

 And, by the way, unlike some others who posted a year ago about this topic, 
I really like Hermione. She's absolutely smart. She has ethics. She's cool.

Now, remember, I love JKR. I adore these books. I talk about them constantly. 
But I must sugges(t that the books are male-identified. Hermione is the 
exception. Hermione is not like the other girls in the HP books. She  doesn't 
giggle, run in packs, or do a lot of the other traditionally girl behavior. 
She's brilliant, hard working, and takes things seriously. She is NOT just 
the girl who helps the boy slay the dragon (as someone suggested). 

By the way, being  male-identified does not mean that one is "less of a 
woman" or "not female". It doesn't mean weak.  It means that when you look at 
a movie you identify with the men (usually because they are the ones doing 
the brave resourceful things). YES, times have changed since 1955. But women 
are too often still the "supporting players". It means that you don't see 
other women as role models, allies, friends, mentors.....


Who helped save Sirius Black? Who tracked down and dealt with Rita Skeeter? 
Hermione is  adventurous; she's inventive. But she is the EXCEPTION. Just as 
many strong, intelligent women, she survives/flourishes by hanging out with 
men and bonding with men. She demonstrates that she can be feminine and 
attract men by attracting a GoF champion, and looking beautiful at the Yule 
Ball. She can do it all if she wants (and good for her), but she has nothing 
in common with the vast majority of women/girls.There are NO strong 
female/female bonds in the book. (we see a little Hermione/Minerva perhaps) 
No women supporting women to fight injustice. Just mostly male bonding (not 
as bad as it would have been 50 years ago) OR women identifying with men.

The vast majority of the cool, powerful, efficacious characters are men/boys. 
James Potter, Sirius Black, Lupin, Dumbledore, Voldemort, Snape, Malfoy, 
Barty Crouch, Senior, Barty Crouch, Junior, Harry, Ron, Fred, George, Bill, 
Percy, Hagrid, Wormtail. Quirrell. Arthur Weasley. The departments in the M 
of M are all headed by men. Even all of the Death Eaters (except Madame 
Lestrange) are men. Even the majority of the ghosts are men! 

Almost all of the women are defined as mothers/partners, yet few of the men 
are defined that way. Molly Weasley (I love her) is defined that way. (Let me 
be crystal clear. Mothering is essential; women who work in the home should 
be highly valued members of our community ) But there are no men in the HP 
books who are defined merely as fathers/partners. There are no men who work 
inside the home, but not outside the home.

 And in fact, Molly is one of the strongest female influences in the books. 
Yet someone on the list last year defined her as angry and menopausal, and 
obviously not the erotic partner of Arthur Weasley. I disagree.  She's 
terrific. She plays a key role. I like her. I like women like her.  If there 
were men in parallel nurturing roles, it would be fine, but there are not.

 Lily Potter is also defined as the mother who sacrificed all for her son. 
(another stereotypical role...which is not to say mothers should not protect 
their children Yet she is still an enigma.  We know a bunch about James and 
his friends, but almost nothing about Lily.  Let's see, she has green eyes, 
and tried to get Voldemort to kill her instead of Harry. Heroic.
Her sister resented her.
Harry has her green eyes.

We hear much more about James.
Moony, Prongs, Wormtail and Padfoot were the group that did adventurous 
things at Hogwarts. James was a Quidditch star. He was brilliant. He broke 
the rules. He had an invisibility cloak. We hear about how he saved Snape 
from Sirius while they were at Hogwarts. We hear NOTHING about Lily at 
Hogwarts. 

Cho is described as a strong girl, a Quidditch player, but her major role is 
as Cedric's date and Harry's crush. The Ravenclaw prefect (Penelope?) is 
there as Percy's amour. The three slimy Slytherins  (Malfoy, Crabbe and 
Goyle) are boys - the only female Slytherins are an enigma - Millicent who is 
large and unpleasant, and then we have the girl who accompanies Malfoy to the 
ball. 

Bertha Jorkins is a space cadet/ traditional female who wanders around 
Albania (of all places) and gets caught by Voldemort/Wormtail. Another 
stereotypical portrayal.

Mrs. Dursley doesn't work outside the home. Vernon makes the decisions and 
rules the roost. 

The Divination Professor is a parody. The healer is sweet but functions in 
the old female stereotype of nurse. Wasn't Neville's mother only tortured to 
see if she knew anything about what Neville's father was doing - he was the 
actor; she was the supporter....

Moaning Myrtle might be a well developed character, but she was an 
unpleasant, unpopular girl, who still is peeking at the Prefects in the bath. 
She whines. 

Then we have the Sirens ---- whoops the Veela - who enslave men with their 
erotic attraction only to turn into monsters (the old toothed vagina stuff).. 
Another negative stereotype about women --
..that women are fatally attractive....that women  entrap men only to 
castrate them.....

Then, we have the four houses. We know the most about Gryffindor, then 
Slytherin.   Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw are the houses we know less about.  Is 
it any coincidence that Godric, the head of Gryffindor and Salazar, the head 
of Slytherin,  were men but Helga Hufflepluff and Rowena Ravenclaw are women? 
I applaud JKR's conscious decision to have "even" distribution among the 
genders, but the fact is that the HP universe is mostly male.

Now for the women with the most potential. I'm afraid Minerva McGonagall 
tends to function as an aide or administrative assistant to Albus Dumbledore. 
I myself was furious at her for not standing up to Cornelius Fudge and 
letting the Dementor give the kiss to BC, Jr. Otherwise, I really like her. I 
love the fact that she's an animaga (okay, my Latin is rusty but she wouldn't 
be an animagus would she?) and that Dumbledore has never seen a cat so 
severe. I love that she wants to win the Quidditch match and lets Harry have 
a broomstick first year. I love her Scottish accent, and how she changes her 
desk into a pig.  Hermione looks to her for help and some guidance. But I'm 
afraid that in the books she is not that strong a character, certainly not if 
you contrast her with Sirius or Lupin or Crouch. She is portrayed (again 
stereotypically) as the strict, not very pleasant, old maid school teacher. 
Maggie Smith will deal with that!

Ginny Weasley has potential. But Ginny is mostly seen as the girl who has the 
crush on Harry.  (In other words, a girl who is defined by her relationship 
to a boy. Please understand, that it's fine to be in relationships, it's fine 
for girls to be in relationships with boys, but not to be solely defined by 
that relationship).  She is taken over by Voldemort/Riddle in the CofS and 
then is rescued by Harry. (again a stereotype).

Madame Maxine has potential, and certainly Dumbledore sees her as a major 
ally. But she also, is seen in relationship to Hagrid. And, we don't hear 
much about her.

The issue of "gender balance" is about which gender gets the most "space", 
time, attention, focus.

Where is the female bonding in these books? It tends to be about giggling and 
hero worship of boys.

(With of course Hermione being the EXCEPTION).

Whereas we have all the magical, wonderful male bonding........

Once again, I brace myself for the deluge....
Susan



From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 01:11:32 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:11:32 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting hat must be broken
Message-ID: <F715uSxzFXIB2wrN59C0000771b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14905

>From: gregg_baeckler at yahoo.com
>
>I apologise if this has been raised already... I didn't find it in
>the archives.
>
>In the first book the sorting hat sings a little song before sorting
>the 1st year students.  It lists the house virtues...
>
>Gryffindor = brave at heart
>Hufflepuff = just and loyal
>Ravenclaw = ready mind
>Slytherin = cunning, willing to use any means
>
>Consider the personalities of Harry, Ron, and Hermoine through the
>four books and match them with houses.
>
>Harry could be G (obvious) or S (considering his willingness to break
>the rules and wander under invisibility cloaks).  No problem there.
>
>Ron is Harry's faithful sidekick and belongs in Hufflepuff.
>
>Hermoine is the ultimate brainiac... and belongs in Ravenclaw.
>
>Why on earth are they all in Gryffindor??  I understand that they are
>all brave, but I would be hard pressed to list bravery before
>academic talent as Hermoine's chief virtue.

I think you're looking at it and considering what they are right now, not 
what lies at the core of their capabilities.  The sorting hat figures out 
"everything" that's in your head (and heart, I imagine) -- not just the 
behaviors you display right now, but all the things you've done and thought 
that point to exactly what you are at heart (I won't say, "what you'll be 
when you grow up).
Right now we see primarily Hermione - the bookworm - but that's just what 
she does (reading/research), not who she is.
Consider Neville as well.  Not a likely character for bravery at first 
glance, but he was brave enough to stand up to his friends in PS/SS, and who 
knows what else is going on inside him?  We know about his parents now, but 
there's so much we don't know about all of the characters that it's hard to 
judge where they've been placed based on what we know.
Except for the really obvious ones, like Draco and crew- then again, if 
Draco hadn't been so determined to go to Slytherin, might the hat have put 
him someplace else.  I don't remember - I think it was CoS - when Dumbledore 
told Harry that the difference between going to Gryffindor and going to 
Slytherin was choosing to go to Gryffindor.  I don't know if that only 
applied to Harry, or to anyone wearing the Sorting Hat.
As for seeing Harry in either ... Ron is often the leader in rulebreaking 
ideas -- come to think of it, if it were just about current actions, Fred 
and George might've winded up in Slytherin, too.<g>

a.
_________________________________________________________________
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From eyegrrl at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 22 01:36:15 2001
From: eyegrrl at earthlink.net (Chris)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:36:15 -0600
Subject: Vernon knowing Dumbledore  ... secrets
In-Reply-To: <003b01c0b258$79efd1c0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
References: <F93E8NpqhNPPzQT456U000070e1@hotmail.com> <01dd01c0b254$9e8fe000$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010321193021.00a9f130@mail.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14906

I am not sure if I am as familiar with the secret-keeping as some of you 
are, but what about Dumbledore being Harry's secret-keeper?  We know that 
he valued James and Lily greatly.  It would seem almost natural that he 
take this important role in Harry's life seeing as he placed Harry 
personally at the Dursleys. If I am way off, please clue me in. I haven't 
had the time to read all the posts on this, so I hope I haven't stolen 
someone's words, otherwise there might be a lawsuit.  Or something. :)
Chris

>**Who would be the secret keeper in Harry's case? Gee, wouldn't be great 
>if it were Sirius, who missed his chance to keep Harry's parents safe by 
>passing the job to Pettigrew? He is, after all, Harry's godfather. I think 
>this makes sense. Do you?**

>Well, that would imply there was an earlier secret-keeper.  Remember, when 
>Harry was being taken to the Dursleys as a little tot, Sirius was on the 
>lam and ended up getting dragged off to Azkaban.  So he couldn't have been 
>the secret keeper at that point.  So who was the first one?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 22 01:39:40 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:39:40 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance
References: <99b8h8+blb8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB957DB.32F7D8CB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14907

I
G
U
E
S
S
I
S
T
I
L
L
N
E
E
D
T
H
I
S
joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> Which does not in any way detract from the point of your post about
> the dominance of men in the HP books, which I happen to agree with.

But did you all notice how many witches were mentioned in the
development of Quidditch? Loads. Perhaps JKR is responding to criticism
this way, by making them more obvious? It seemed like she was also
answering questions she'd been asked about broomsticks and travel
thereon. What a wonderful way to respond to questions and such! Charity
books. Vivat.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 22 01:42:21 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:42:21 -0600
Subject: Redemption (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil   ... )
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEIJDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk> <3AB92A7E.DCDED7DB@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3AB9587D.4808F0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14908

Margaret Dean wrote:

> I also can't help wondering if we're ever going to encounter any
> wizarding-world aristocrats who truly =are= gentlewizards and
> -witches.

Well, it depends on how you define "aristocrat." If it is someone coming
from a long, established, honored lineage, we already have---Ron and
Neville, both. If you mean somebody rich, I don't know that we have yet.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From indigo at indigosky.net  Thu Mar 22 01:47:39 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:47:39 -0000
Subject: Malfoy redemption
In-Reply-To: <99b4kq+7jke@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99bljr+m12j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14909

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> 
Actually, this was me :) 

> Rainylilac: Unfortunately I don't see it happening.
> Kids are among the most perceptive people in the world.  They're 
> innocent and easily duped like Ginny Weasley, but they're also 
> capable of telling right from wrong.
> There are real world examples that bear this up.
> Kids who had prejudiced parents growing up to not be prejudiced 
> themselves.
> Draco is, in fairness, jealous of Harry but he's going about 
handling 
> it wrong.  Instead of trying to do his own great deeds, he tries to 
> tear down anything of Harry's.
> And if he really wanted to outshine Harry, he could be doing things 
> to elevate himself in Hogwarts and the eyes of others.  Either he's 
> entirely terrified by and cowed by his father, or -- more likely, 
> given how he behaves -- buys into it completely and plans to grow 
up 
> to be a Death Eater himself.
> If Draco Malfoy had the slightest inkling prejudice was wrong, he 
> would not still continually be using the "Mudblood" ephithet, 
because 
> he knows full well it is one. 
> He knows full well it is offensive to Harry's trio. 
> He knows full well it is considered one of the worst things you can 
> say about a person.
> A person lacking prejudice would have reflected on this. Maybe not 
> apologized for it, but would've at least stopped using that 
> particular thorn to nettle his adversaries with.
> 
> Um...yes. Nobody's arguing that Draco isn't a bigoted little prick, 
> in fact its been reiterated over and over even by those of us 
agruing 
> that he's redeemable. Not one person is arguing that Draco is nice; 
> not one person is arguing that he isn't a bigot and a pest and a 
> mean, unpleasant, bullying sort of child. He picks on the weak and 
> cheats and lies and is completely prejudiced. Stating all those 
> facts, IMHO, goes nowhere in arguing against his possible 
redemption; 

Except that he *chose* to be a bigoted little prick.  He knows the 
difference, and has no inclination thus far to behave the other way. 

> we all accept that that's how he's portrayed and most likely how he 
> is. "Draco is, in fairness, jealous of Harry but he's going about 
> handling it wrong" is, IMHO, the understatement that ate 
> Hogwarts. "Handling it wrong" doesn't even approach how rotten 
Draco 
> generally is. It's not really relevant to the arguement though.

Relevant in that the boy's worldview is warped and skewed -- and that 
he *likes* it that way. He self-perpetuates it by how he behaves.  He 
could choose to behave like a good kid. He doesn't. 

> 
> I don't even argue that Draco WILL be redeemed; I have only argued 
> that narratively, it would be possible for JKR to redeem him 
without 
> invalidating the universe and characters that she has created. 
Wheras 
> it would be impossible for Harry to, say, become buddies with Peter 
> Pettigrew without invalidating what we know of both of them so far.
> 
> Do you really think that Snape wasn't pretty much exactly like 
Draco 
> when he was at school? (Only possibly less popular and Draco 
probably 
> has cleaner hair.) I wouldn't be surprised if he went around 
spouting 
> off about Muggles and Mudbloods. He joined the Death Eaters, after 
> all. And his redemptive possibilites are quite clear in canon.
> 
That's all speculative though until we determine why he's so devoted 
to DUmbledore and Hogwarts. 

> Lastly, I'm afraid I don't see how the fact that kids are 
perceptive 
> ties in with anything relating to Draco's evilness or lack therof. 
Do 
> you mean an eleven-year-old child with little to no experience of 
the 
> outside world should be able to see right through everything his 
> father has ever told him to be true? 

To some degree, yes.

I know a good many 11 year olds with sufficient aplomb to know 
prejudice is wrong, and putting people down for being different is 
wrong. 

At home, Draco has motive to toe Dear old Dad's line.

At Hogwarts, though, he is not obliged to do so unless he chooses to. 
Which he does.

I suppose one could cite Harry 
> seeing through the Dursleys but there's a HUGE disctinction there 
> which is that the Dursleys are unkind to Harry and give him no 
> attention at all, wheras it certainly looks from canon like Lucius 
> gives Draco plenty of attention as well as expensive brooms. 

That's not where I was going with that, no. 

Obviously he's a spoiled rich kid.  But not all spoiled rich kids 
choose to torment others either. 

Or are 
> you saying that the fact that the fact that Harry and Hermione and 
> Ron perceive him to be an evil git therefore means he is one? (Not 
> like they haven't been wrong about people before.) Maybe I just 
don't 
> understand what you were trying to say.
> 
I'm saying Draco is perceptive enough to know which way the wind 
blows, and he thinks that the Big V's side is the side on which the 
power and wealth are.  

And he has little to disprove this fiction in his head.  The Weasleys 
are all poor and Harry is deprived though he has wealthy Muggle 
relatives, and his goody-goody parents were killed by the Big V. 

He's made his choice and at present, to me, seems to have no desire 
whatsoever to change his ways.  

It will take something profound and intense to redeem him. 

Otherwise, his experiences will likely cement his belief that his 
choice is the right one. 






From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 22 01:58:41 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:58:41 -0600
Subject: "psychic' link/power
References: <F11WuLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS000074be@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AB95C51.707A80D9@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14910

"A. Green" wrote:

> If this has been covered, please point me to the thread.

I don't believe it has, and thank you for the post, because the other
day I was wondering about the *exact* same thing and forgot to ask about
it. But I pondered it, and here's what I've worked out.

> I've been wondering if either Ron or Harry has some kind of
> "telepathic"? ability.  For instance, in PoA (I don't have the book
> with me) after the encounter with Draco in Hogsmead (when invisi-Harry
> was roughing him up outside the Shrieking Shack), Harry runs back
> through the tunnel so that he
> can get back to Hogwarts before he gets caught outside.  Snape catches
> Harry in the hall and they go to Snape's office.  Snape makes Harry
> empty his pockets. Harry says Ron bought the contents for him.  Ron
> rushes in and says, paraphrasing, "I bought the stuff for him."
> 1. How did Ron know Harry got caught?

Well, the three (Draco, Harry, Ron) all left about the same time from
the Shrieking Shack. Draco ran off first, going the Standard Route to
Hogwarts. Harry left immediately after, going the Tunnel Route, which
may or may not be shorter. When Harry got out of the witch, Snape had
*just* been talking to Draco, so there was apparently only about a
fifteen-  to twenty-minute difference in Draco and Harry's arrival times
(allowing Draco time to find Snape, and Snape time to get to the
statue).

Ron presumably hotfooted it back to Hogwarts as well, leaving at about
the same time. I presume he took the standard route, which is apparently
shorter (since Draco got there first, with enough time to find Snape and
tell his story). So Ron could not have been *that* far behind, timewise,
Draco *or* Harry. However, Snape and Harry have time to have their whole
confrontation scene before Ron bursts in. Soooo,

> 2. How did he know they were in Snape's office?

He'd run back and checked their dorm first, not found Harry, and assumed
the worst. He might even have run into Draco, crowing his victory.
Anyway, I assume he had to run around a bit to determine Harry had
indeed been collared by Snape and they were in Snape's office.

> 3. How did he know Snape had made Harry empty his pockets?

Good question. Did he see the stuff on Snape's desk? He might have just
assumed, having heard about Snape from his many brothers and knowing
that if they were still in Snape's office, not Dumbledore's, that Snape
was probably still questioning (i.e., not sure).

> 4. How did he know Harry had said Ron bought the stuff (and not
> Hermione)?

This one, I've no idea. Except that they were with each other, and each
other was their first thought. It also isn't the sort of thing
Hermione'd be buying for anyone, joke stuff.

> Seems to me that if he had been standing outside the door during the
> whole inquisition, he wouldn't have burst in "out of breath" as I
> remember it, to say the he'd gotten the stuff.

As I say, I think there was a combination of some running around and
searching, and serendipity with excuses.

> Later, in the shrieking shack, when they all blast Snape - could it
> have been Ron or Harry unconciously (for some reason I can't spell
> that today - several typos and it still doesn't look right :)
> transmitted his intent to
> the other two, and caused them to have the same response?  I mean, I
> see Hermione disagreeing with Snape, and trying to reason with him,
> but I don't really see her facing down a professor with her wand and
> blasting his wand away.  Maybe that's just me.

I think Snape was pretty clearly unhinged at the time, and they only
wanted to get his wand away so that Sirius and Lupin could have their
say. Remember, not even Harry believed Sirius at that point--they just
wanted to hear their side. If *one* person does "expelliarmus," it just
brings the object's wand away; it was the combination that was so
powerful.

> I think the link may have been there again, stronger in the
> compartment on the train in GoF when they all blasted Malfoy - either
> Ron or Harry decided to blast him, and transmitted the
> desire/direction to the rest of them, so once again they act as one.

I think it's more that they know each other so well that there's no need
for speech. There's nothing all that unusual about that, people who have
been friends for as long as they have, in such close association, often
develop that "finish each other's sentences" type relationship.

> Could that be something else Harry got from V. (besides
> snake-speech)?  V. was supposed to be really good at controlling
> people, wasn't he?

I know he was supposed to be charismatic (according to him, wasn't it?).
But I don't know about the other. Loads of people *claimed* he
controlled them, after he was defeated, but that doesn't mean he really
did. I'm sure a significant percentage of those so claiming were trying
to wiggle out of an all-expense-paid trip to Azkaban.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 22 02:03:18 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:03:18 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Redemption - MOM Women - "psychic" link
References: <99bdpn+ao0v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB95D65.27649EE6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14911

Amy Z wrote:

> In any case, I find it kind of comical that Ron's excuse is so feeble
> and obviously false, yet Snape can't nail them and has to let them go.

No, he didn't; Lupin swept them away before Snape could say anything.
That excuse wouldn't have had a snowball's chance if Lupin hadn't been
there.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From indigo at indigosky.net  Thu Mar 22 02:16:40 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 02:16:40 -0000
Subject: our wands
In-Reply-To: <99bdiq+4psm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99bna8+7pcr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14912

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> > --- Indigo:
> [18 inches, sassafras, phoenix feather -- if you guys have wands, 
> that's mine!] 
> 
> 18 inches? Dear Lord. Bigger than Hagrids.
> (Mine?s 12 ? inches in a certain swedish tree called bj?rk, and 
> dragon heart strings!)
> 
> /jennifer who had to mentione that

*giggle* 

The first ruler I ever had was 18 inches long, and I've always liked 
that. It fits nicely along the forearm.

::quietly takes her wand and sits down, since this'll go off topic if 
it continues!::






From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 22 02:16:14 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:16:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vernon knowing Dumbledore  ... secrets
References: <F93E8NpqhNPPzQT456U000070e1@hotmail.com> <01dd01c0b254$9e8fe000$2814a3d1@doreen> <5.0.0.25.2.20010321193021.00a9f130@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3AB9606D.C26883BC@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14913

Chris wrote:

> I am not sure if I am as familiar with the secret-keeping as some of
> you are, but what about Dumbledore being Harry's secret-keeper?

Where are all of you getting the notion that Harry is hidden by the
Fidelius Charm at the Dursleys? Did I miss something, or is this just
supposition?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From margdean at erols.com  Thu Mar 22 02:41:24 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:41:24 -0500
Subject: Redemption (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't  Evil   ... )
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEIJDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk> <3AB92A7E.DCDED7DB@erols.com> <3AB9587D.4808F0@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AB96654.B01B287C@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14914

Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> 
> Margaret Dean wrote:
> 
> > I also can't help wondering if we're ever going to encounter any
> > wizarding-world aristocrats who truly =are= gentlewizards and
> > -witches.
> 
> Well, it depends on how you define "aristocrat." If it is someone coming
> from a long, established, honored lineage, we already have---Ron and
> Neville, both. If you mean somebody rich, I don't know that we have yet.

Not necessarily rich, but someone who traditionally doesn't have
to work for a living because they get their income some other
way:  either Land or Investments, to quote Lady Bracknell.  

What I'm really angling for, of course, is the wizarding
equivalent of Lord Peter Wimsey.  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 02:34:57 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:34:57 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vernon knowing Dumbledore ... secrets
Message-ID: <F1694SfKekFij9tKR0T0000758c@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14915


>
>I am not sure if I am as familiar with the secret-keeping as some of you
>are, but what about Dumbledore being Harry's secret-keeper?  We know that
>he valued James and Lily greatly.  It would seem almost natural that he
>take this important role in Harry's life seeing as he placed Harry
>personally at the Dursleys. If I am way off, please clue me in. I haven't
>had the time to read all the posts on this, so I hope I haven't stolen
>someone's words, otherwise there might be a lawsuit.  Or something. :)
>Chris
>
> >**Who would be the secret keeper in Harry's case? Gee, wouldn't be great
> >if it were Sirius, who missed his chance to keep Harry's parents safe by
> >passing the job to Pettigrew? He is, after all, Harry's godfather. I 
>think
> >this makes sense. Do you?**
>
> >Well, that would imply there was an earlier secret-keeper.  Remember, 
>when
> >Harry was being taken to the Dursleys as a little tot, Sirius was on the
> >lam and ended up getting dragged off to Azkaban.  So he couldn't have 
>been
> >the secret keeper at that point.  So who was the first one?
>
I'm not sure where this train started any more, but here's my take (not that 
you asked).  I think the whole point with secret keepers is that noone knows 
where you are - you hide the secret of your location within your secret 
keeper.  In Harry's case, right off the bat there were 3 people who knew his 
exact location Dumbledore, McGonacal and Hagrid -- and we know how good 
Hagrid is with secrets. <vbg>
"Dumbledore trusts me with important business, you know, like secrets and 
things.  Oh no, I couldn't tell you the secret, but it's a big one. Sure, 
I'll have another quart or two ... say, is that a terrible, horrible monster 
ya' got there?" lol
I could be wrong. <g> I do like Hagrid, too.
a.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 22 03:09:53 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:09:53 -0600
Subject: Redemption (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't   Evil   ... )
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEIJDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk> <3AB92A7E.DCDED7DB@erols.com> <3AB9587D.4808F0@texas.net> <3AB96654.B01B287C@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3AB96D01.36DF0097@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14916

Margaret Dean wrote:

> Not necessarily rich, but someone who traditionally doesn't have to
> work for a living because they get their income some other way:
> either Land or Investments, to quote Lady Bracknell.

*ahem* That IS rich. At least from where I sit. Independently wealthy.
Able to pursue avocations. Etc. I presume when you say rich, you mean
filthy rich, lighting cigarettes with $100 bills and the like?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From margdean at erols.com  Thu Mar 22 03:42:02 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:42:02 -0500
Subject: Redemption (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't    Evil   ... )
References: <LOBBLGEGEBLNEOFHCDINGEIJDGAA.simon.branford@hertford.ox.ac.uk> <3AB92A7E.DCDED7DB@erols.com> <3AB9587D.4808F0@texas.net> <3AB96654.B01B287C@erols.com> <3AB96D01.36DF0097@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AB9748A.F34647A4@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14917

Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> 
> Margaret Dean wrote:
> 
> > Not necessarily rich, but someone who traditionally doesn't have to
> > work for a living because they get their income some other way:
> > either Land or Investments, to quote Lady Bracknell.
> 
> *ahem* That IS rich. At least from where I sit. Independently wealthy.
> Able to pursue avocations. Etc. I presume when you say rich, you mean
> filthy rich, lighting cigarettes with $100 bills and the like?

Actually I meant common-or-garden rich.  It's entirely possible
(at least at some times/places) to have an independent =income=
that doesn't make you =wealthy.=  Inherited money, say, invested
in the Funds, but not actually providing more than a modest
yearly income.  Or even a wretched yearly income, but it =is= an
income, you can get by, and by golly you have your Family Pride
and none of the Family has =ever= had to go into *shudder* TRADE.

After all, we =are= talking about English wizards.


--Margaret Dean, who has to get this sort of thing from books...
  <margdean at erols.com>



From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 22 03:23:30 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:23:30 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Re: our wands; Newbies & VFAQs
References: <99bna8+7pcr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AB97032.F408301A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14918

Hi --

Indigo wrote:

> The first ruler I ever had was 18 inches long, and I've always liked
> that. It fits nicely along the forearm.
>
> ::quietly takes her wand and sits down, since this'll go off topic if
> it continues!::

I think it already is Off-Topic.  <g>  Could you guys please move this
over to OT-Chatter?  Thanks!!!

Newbies:  Yeah, you!  I know you're out there -- lurking -- you're
there, right?  Please take a moment to read through the VFAQs in the
Files section (these are our answers to *Very* Frequently Asked
Questions).  This will be very very useful to you -- I promise.
Definitely not a waste of your time.  You can learn all kinds of things
by reading this instructive document -- like where is this HP
obsessiveness quiz that everyone mentions in their posts, what's up with
that gleam in Dumbledore's eye in Goblet of Fire, what's a "ship" and
what's this business about an OT-Chatter group.

Everyone: I can't stress enough how wonderful it would be if everyone
would read the descriptions of things to go into Announcements & the
things that go into OT-Chatter.  These descriptions can also be found in
the Files section.  We created these lists to reduce message volume on
the main list.  Only about 18% of you have bothered to join the
Announcements & OT-Chatter groups.  While we know not everyone would
want to join OT-Chatter (lots of us would prefer to not see anything
that's OT!), I do think the Announcements group would appeal to most
everyone.  Give it a try!

Penny
The ever-vigilant Mod Squad



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andeinmn at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 03:36:50 2001
From: andeinmn at aol.com (andeinmn at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:36:50 EST
Subject: Redemption (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't  Evil   .....
Message-ID: <14.115c672a.27eacd52@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14919

Margaret Dean invokes the name of the first Englishman to win my heart:

> Not necessarily rich, but someone who traditionally doesn't have
>  to work for a living because they get their income some other
>  way:  either Land or Investments, to quote Lady Bracknell.  
>  
>  What I'm really angling for, of course, is the wizarding
>  equivalent of Lord Peter Wimsey.  :)

 
Ah, Lord Peter, now we're talking!  Actually, I wonder if some of the 
Ministry wizards might fall into this category?  And perhaps we will learn 
more about them as people choose sides to fight the coming darkness.

Ande  




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar 22 03:58:51 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 03:58:51 -0000
Subject: Malfoy redemption
In-Reply-To: <99bljr+m12j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99bt9r+bc1v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14920

Cassie Stating all those  facts, IMHO, goes nowhere in arguing 
against his possible redemption. 
> 
Indigo: Except that he *chose* to be a bigoted little prick.  He 
knows the  difference, and has no inclination thus far to behave the 
other way. 

And Snape at one point chose to be a Death Eater. Then he chose not 
to be any more. Saying that someone is "bad" does not argue against 
their redemption. It's not a "redemption" if one isn't bad in the 
first place.
 
Indigo: Relevant in that the boy's worldview is warped and skewed -- 
and that  he *likes* it that way. He self-perpetuates it by how he 
behaves.  He  could choose to behave like a good kid. He doesn't. 
 

*sigh* This is only relevant if the argument is that Draco is some 
kind of nice kid, which is not an argument I was making. He's a 
bigoted little rat. All I ever said was that JKR had left it open 
that he might not be this bigoted little rat forever. Something might 
happen to change him.
 
(snip Snape stuff)
Indigo: That's all speculative though until we determine why he's so 
devoted  to Dumbledore and Hogwarts. 

Well..we have it on canon evidence that he practiced Dark magic and 
was a Death Eater. Snape was *not* a good guy.
 
Indigo: It will take something profound and intense to redeem him 
(Draco). 

Ah, so you agree there *is* the possibility, however remote, that he 
might be redeemable? Then we have the same point of view.

Cassandra




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 04:33:51 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:33:51 -0000
Subject: gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <c1.c9a1f79.27eaa8a3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99bvbf+oud6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14921

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
an excellent analysis of why the HP books are male-identified. I just 
wanted to say, although the moderators will probably yell at me, that 
I think Susans analysis is right on-target.  But before people start 
yelling I just want to emphasize that saying this does not in any way 
detract from the brillance and wonderfulness of the books.  To some 
degree, JKR is describing the world the way it is.  Men do still run 
the world, and women are still far more likely than men to not work 
and stay home and take care of the kids, etc.  I would like it, 
personally, if JKR would pay a little more attention to having strong 
female characters but that is not in any way an attack or even really 
a criticism.  We worship you, JKR, if you are out there -- probably 
far more than you would like us to.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Thu Mar 22 04:48:30 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:48:30 -0400
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ...
Message-ID: <3AB9841D.B39228DB@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 14922

Well! This would be a boring list if we ever totally agreed. :-)

I appreciate the different points of view about Draco. Especially
Heidi's imaginative speculation on what is could be going on inside of
Draco's head.

I still think he's evil. BUT there have been a couple of excellent posts
that I want to acknowledge.

Cassie posted that she thinks Draco hasn't done anything irredeemable in
canon yet. I think the Cedric remark was irredeemable - but it made me
think about what might happen if Draco actually saw some of the Death
Eaters in practice. Not stuff like at what happened at the World Cup -
what would happen if Draco saw his father lay waste to a group of
Muggles and then turn to Draco and say, "Your turn". Would Draco pull
out his wand with glee? Would he suddenly grow a heart? Or would he wet
his leather pants instead? (Sorry Heidi).

I also like Magda's suggestion that Voldemort might demand of Lucius
that he sacrifice Draco - and Lucius might comply, paving the way for a
Draco redemption.

I stand by my opinion that Draco is evil, and he made that remark about
Cedric knowingly and with intentional malice - but the door hasn't quite
closed on him just yet. 

Off to write "A Day in the Life of Draco's Summer Vacation",

Angela

-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
  "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs
should relax and get used to the idea."   Robert A. Heinlein



From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 22 05:11:33 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:11:33 -0800
Subject: New book: "Harry Potter and the Bible : The Menace Behind the Magick"
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010321210659.035d5360@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14923

Has anyone seen/read this book yet?  I'm a bit distressed by the number
of positive reviews it's receiving on Amazon.com.  I know we'd all probably
get mad if we read it, but perhaps we should know what we're up against...?

Here's Amazon's entry for the book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0889652015/qid%3D985234824/107-4540277-6284523

(I notice that the title spells "magick" with a "k" so the author may be out to
  undermine Wiccans/Neopagans as much as us "evil" Potter fans.)



                                                 -- Dave




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar 22 04:45:44 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:45:44 -0600
Subject: Order of the Phoenix
Message-ID: <000201c0b294$7088eea0$8414a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14924

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
(you guys have me in stitches)

If there is a limited number of members in the Order of the Phoenix, whose names do you think would be on the list of members? Let's guess that the "club" started back in the dark days of Voldemort's rampage and there are ten people on it. 

Which ten people would you guess and why?

Doreen

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 06:22:50 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 06:22:50 -0000
Subject: Gender balance If HP were a girl
In-Reply-To: <3AB8B68C.91A7B52C@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99c5nq+b15t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14925


> > My point being, if Harry had been female, I don't think it'd have 
made
> > any
> > difference, as long as she had the same adventures et al that 
Harry
> > has.
> 


Amanda responds:
> Well, out of your own mouth, perceptions of female hero-characters 
and
> male hero-characters exist for many people and might have had an 
impact.
> Even if the books had a female in an action role, if the perception
> dissuaded them from reading the book at all, there would have been 
an
> impact.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
Susan responds to Amanda:

Well, not to be arguMENtative or anything (not ME!), but then maybe 
there would have only been 10,000 of us reading the books rather than 
10 million, and I could have had a better chance of personal dialogue 
with JKR. AND I could have continued to post off topic posts without 
fear of expulsion.

(Note, please, this is a joke. I obviously am hopeless at numbers, 
and worse at logic...(so am I saying Harry should have been a girl so 
less people would have read the books?

Susan

Susan




From kenc at cse.iitb.ac.in  Thu Mar 22 06:26:58 2001
From: kenc at cse.iitb.ac.in (Kensy Joseph)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:56:58 +0530 (IST)
Subject: Quidditch, Hogwarts and Wizard society
In-Reply-To: <985225445.2201.74893.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPX.4.21.0103221132340.16175-100000@everest.cse.iitb.ernet.in>

No: HPFGUIDX 14926


Was just thinking about Quidditch when the following occurred to me (if
they've all been discussed before, just point me to the message number) -

1> All the time Durmstrang and Beauxbatons were at Hogwarts, how come
there were no friendly Quidditch matches between the three schools? For
one, it is not very often (over a century since the last Triwizard
Tournament?) that schools get together. In books 1-3, there has never been
any mention of any inter-school tournaments; so why not a few friendly
matches when they came visiting? Not to mention that the world's best
Seeker was on the Durmstrang team. (If Beckham came to my school for a
term, there's no way I'm letting him go without having him play soccer
even once.)

2> If Hogwarts were to put up an "All-Star" Hogwarts team (am I going OT
here?), who would be on it? (Since I'm trying to think of a team to play
the other schools, this would be set before the death of Cedric and I
guess we could include him in consideration). We know (??) that Harry's
the best Seeker. What about best Keeper, Chasers etc (evidence in canon?)
***I guess it's not OT now ;-)***

3> Is Quidditch a truly universal game in the wizarding world? Not
everybody would use brooms for transport, would they? (I remember some
mention of flying carpets at the WC - and it seems only natural that few
Asian wizards, for instance, would use brooms for transport due to
cultural factors). Would there be versions of Quidditch that use other
means to fly than brooms? Other games?

4> The question of who would play Quidditch led me to another question -
what would the poorest classes in the wizarding world be like? JKR has
often depicted the Weasleys as being impoverished - but somehow people
with three square meals a day and a roof over their head (not to mention a
garage and a flying car!) could hardly be the dregs of wizarding society.
If Quidditch were the most popular game in the wizarding world - then
there might not be a basic-existence-level class at all. In the real
world, soccer (or cricket) is extremely popular amongst the poor because
of the simplicity of the sporting equipment used (just some old newspapers
tightly wound to a ball would do!) Quidditch, OTOH, seems to require a lot
of specialised (enchanted?) equipment - snitch, bludgers, hoops, etc. It
wouldn't be possible for *anyone* to enchant a little ball to make it
behave like a snitch (or we would have seen it at the Weasley's; not to
mention that if anyone could *make* a snitch; then anyone could invoke the
counterspell and we would have chaos at the WC!!) So, if JKR's world had
really *really* poor people, they wouldn't be able to play ...

I'd love to hear what you think about this.

--
Kensy Joseph <kenc at cse.iitb.ernet.in>
Institute Literary Secretary	 
Room #275, Hostel 4
IIT-Bombay
	 I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 06:44:31 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 06:44:31 -0000
Subject: Father figures, Snape, Dumbledore and Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <3AB8B81D.1B9D80F6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99c70f+acqs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14927

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Magda Grantwich wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone noticed how fanatical Snape is in his reverence for
> > Hogwarts?  Rules are everything. And he can come up with no worse
> > punishment for Harry - who he loathes - than expulsion from 
Hogwarts:
> > a fate he seems to regard as the equivalent of exile.
> 
> Oooooh. Wow. Mmmmm. Yes. Very, very good observation. It's true. 
Outer
> darkness, ultimate fate to wreak upon Harry = expulsion. And Sirius 
says
> Snape was always trying to get the Marauders expelled, too. So was
> Hogwarts the home that Snape didn't have where he came from? Have 
all
> his actions been somewhat "protective" of Hogwarts, too--even the 
bad
> ones? Was he trying to get disrespectful troublemakers out of 
Hogwarts
> where they didn't belong, instead of it being a personal dislike? 
Was he
> involved with the Death Eaters for a similar reason? Great insight, 
I'd
> never thought of that.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 

Fascinating. Could it be that Snape became involved with the Death-
Eaters for the very reason that many people get involved with cults, 
gangs, etc. --- that they have had no roots, family, support....
this would cover his Hogwarts obsession and his DE connection....
Although, I would suggest that he both loathes Harry personally AND 
resents that he breaks the rules..that he hates rule breakers AND he 
hates Harry because Harry him so strongly of James..... In many ways, 
Sirius and James seemed to have broken many more rules than Harry, 
Ron, Gred and Forge combined....? Do we know anything about Snape's 
background at all? (hmmmm..no, we don't..maybe we should put that on 
the Grownups Questions for JKR list)

Great insight, Magda

Susan




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar 22 06:52:14 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:52:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vernon knowing Dumbledore  ... secrets timeline booboos
References: <F93E8NpqhNPPzQT456U000070e1@hotmail.com> <01dd01c0b254$9e8fe000$2814a3d1@doreen> <003b01c0b258$79efd1c0$c574e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <002b01c0b29c$a1a596c0$8414a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14928

Woah!  Doreen!  Did you go to my high school?  I grew up with people who would read into books like that --I always wondered at that ability, as I'm not usually a "reader-into".
anyway...
**Who would be the secret keeper in Harry's case? Gee, wouldn't be great if it were Sirius, who missed his chance to keep Harry's parents safe by passing the job to Pettigrew? He is, after all, Harry's godfather. I think this makes sense. Do you?** 

Well, that would imply there was an earlier secret-keeper.  Remember, when Harry was being taken to the Dursleys as a little tot, Sirius was on the lam and ended up getting dragged off to Azkaban.  So he couldn't have been the secret keeper at that point.  So who was the first one?

**For whatever the reason is that Voldemort wanted Harry as a baby... and now wants him dead, he could not even begin to harm Harry until he was 11 because he did not know where he was being kept.**

Not to mention he was a slug in Romania... <g>  too bad he couldn't stay that way.  
Ooh...amusing thought.  Anyone else remember the little kid from the campsite at the Quidditch World Cup?  Kevin, the one who wasn't supposed to touch Daddy's wand?  "You bust slug!  You bust slug!" 
teehee...just had to share that, it  popped  into my head just now.  Anyways...

**Stepping off on a long branch here, what if the Dursleys were involved? **

Wow, you are willing to look for the good in everyone! <g>  I tend not to agree with that, just 'cause I greatly dislike the Dursleys, but were it to be true, I think it would definately be an interesting twist...we need to start sending these ideas to JKR.

Abbie, who still loves little Kevin after her nth reading of GoF
starling823 at yahoo.com
69% obsessed with HP and loving it
"Ah, music," Dumbledore said, wiping his eyes.  "A magic beyond all we do here!"
          -HP and the Sorcerer's Stone
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

I read your letter and groaned ... smacked my forehead and thought that I really should have waited to post that letter until I had my ducks in line better. The ideas were off the top of my head... but not at all my very own original ideas ... they are thoughts that have been formulating here and there from all the letters and ideas that I have seen in this group... they are ideas that were formulated as I read the books for the second and third times. The first time I read for pleasure and fun. The second time I read for clarification and understanding, which was also fun, but in a different way. Have you ever watched a movie again & again and had different thoughts about what you saw? Maybe you notice things that were there but you didn't see the first time. 

I was not perceptive enough to notice the descendant/ancestor mistake. I am fairly certain that I would have noticed the wand mistake, if I had not already read about it. That is more the direction that my mind takes when reading ... as the shadows came out of the wand, I would have started piecing the stories backwards in my mind as they came out. I just know that I would have picked up on it... I would have expected Lily to come out ... and James coming out would have flipped me out. 

I am going back to my drawing board and refining my ideas so that they "work:".. as I should have in the first place... with HP books in my hands and the Lexicon on my monitor screen.

Doreen, who dreads to read what other mistakes she made while pondering "out loud"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From minerva at femgeeks.net  Thu Mar 22 06:53:53 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 07:53:53 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Father figures, Snape, Dumbledore and Hogwarts
Message-ID: <F165TMVwVn20lbhsKd6000067b6@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14929

[Apologies if you get this twice, but either hotmail or yahoo!groups is 
being nasty to me.]

<Magda Grantwich>
<<Has anyone noticed how fanatical Snape is in his reverence for Hogwarts?
Rules are everything.>>

That reminds me, does anyone else see a similarity between Percy and Snape? 
They both have an unbending reverence for rules, and there's been a few 
hints throughout GoF that Percy might go 'bad'.

I don't have my copy here, so I can't look up the exact quotes, but at one 
point, Ron says Percy would, like Crouch and his son, let his family members 
be punished if they'd break the rules. There was another bit that made me 
afraid of/for Percy, but I can't recall it off the top of my head.

Any thoughts?

Sofie

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
- I don't want that kind of power.
- You're just afraid of it.
(Draco and Harry; contextless snippetty conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 04:08:20 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 20:08:20 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands AGAIN?
References: <99502n+hnhn@eGroups.com> <004101c0b0b5$3ff40620$8614a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <035701c0b29f$33cd2340$87481c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14930




> No, it doesn't say he gets it back, but that is such a simple thing
to
> correct. Dumbledore, or Hagrid, or even Snape might give it to him
at the
> beginning of the next term. Or, the new DADA might give it to him,
knowing
> somehow that it is his, and also, like Snape, not know what it is.
> Therefore, it would seem harmless enough giving it back to Harry.
Maybe it
> is in an envelope or drawer marked, "confiscated from Harry Potter."

I just cannot see Snape giving Harry anything back. In PoA he got
Harry got it back because Lupin left, and Snape will remember that
Lupin had taken it. Snape is just too suspicious of anything that has
to do with Harry.
If Harry didn't take it, then Moody will find it in his office, know
what it is and keep it. After all, Moody is very suspicious of
anything, and a map like that would work to his advantage. I think
we'll see him in book 5 as the DADA professor.

However, someone mentioned that Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Neville
would come up with a new map. While I cannot see Neville working on
that, I can imagine that Fred and George would come up with a new one
and help H, H, and Ron make it.

Rena



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 05:34:51 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:34:51 -0800
Subject: wizard/witch holidays
References: <9960ve+gds3@eGroups.com> <009e01c0b114$7dc07100$8914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <035901c0b29f$363103e0$87481c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14931


> I found it odd that they did celebrate Christmas, but not so
halloween, since halloween started out as a pagan holiday,  and is not
a Christian holiday.
> So much of Christmas, any more, sadly to say, has little to do with
Christianity, and more to do with greed and commercialism. I like the
old-fashioned touches of Mrs. Weasley's hand-knit sweaters and
homemade fudge.  Also, Ron's statement that Christmas is for family.

It would make more sense for me, if they witches and wizards would
celebrate Walpurgis Night -- a night were witches (and I believe
wizards) would get together and dance around a large bonfire. If
memory serves me right, this would be April 30th. Or does Walpurgis
Night coincide with Halloween?

Rena



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar 22 07:37:22 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:37:22 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vernon knowing Dumbledore  ... secrets
References: <F93E8NpqhNPPzQT456U000070e1@hotmail.com> <01dd01c0b254$9e8fe000$2814a3d1@doreen> <5.0.0.25.2.20010321193021.00a9f130@mail.earthlink.net> <3AB9606D.C26883BC@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00a001c0b2a2$ef6fc6e0$8414a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14932

Chris wrote:

> I am not sure if I am as familiar with the secret-keeping as some of
> you are, but what about Dumbledore being Harry's secret-keeper?

Where are all of you getting the notion that Harry is hidden by the
Fidelius Charm at the Dursleys? Did I miss something, or is this just
supposition?

--Amanda
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
:):):):):):):
Total supposition along with a gazillion other ideas, that I just found out
were not all as original as I had wished they were. Steve had "been there,
done that" on a few of them... obviously NOT the ideas that I had which were
time-line INcorrect. He had all of his ducks in line ... while I had no idea
where my ducks were going.

I still think that we are missing something important in the very first part
of the story .. simply because, as JKR hoped we would ... we were all so
anxious to read more ... that we just whizzed right through the Hagrid,
Dumbledore, McGonagall stuff with amusement and wonder ... and not our usual
nitpicky observant behaviours.

I still think it is there and I just have not put it together correctly. And
then, when I do get it all put together correctly ... and am bursting with
pride, the next book will come out and probably blow it out of the water.
That is why JKR is the author and I am the reader.

I just realized why this group has so much more potential than most. We have
not only "THE" book to ponder and discuss ... but 3 more which are not
written and that we know will be written. We can "what if" til the cows come
home .. or at least til the next edition comes out. What fun! Like kiddies
in a toy store, with 3 unexplored rooms full of toys thru the next doors.

Doreen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amanda Lewanski" <editor at texas.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vernon knowing Dumbledore ... secrets


Chris wrote:

> I am not sure if I am as familiar with the secret-keeping as some of
> you are, but what about Dumbledore being Harry's secret-keeper?

Where are all of you getting the notion that Harry is hidden by the
Fidelius Charm at the Dursleys? Did I miss something, or is this just
supposition?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 07:50:49 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:50:49 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix
References: <000201c0b294$7088eea0$8414a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <03e901c0b2a5$2a823c20$87481c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14933

> If there is a limited number of members in the Order of the Phoenix,
whose names do you think would be on the list of members? Let's guess
that the "club" started back in the dark days of Voldemort's rampage
and there are ten people on it.
>
> Which ten people would you guess and why?
>
> Doreen

Here I go:
1. Dumbledoore -- he isn't afraid of Voldemort and knows that his
former student Riddle turned into the dark lord.
2. James Potter -- he's stong enough to fight V and not afraid to do
it.
3. Lily Potter -- to help her husband and stand up to V. and not
afraid to do it.
4. Sirius Black -- for the same reason JP is in
5. Longbottom (Neville's father) -- detests death eaters and has
special powers that allow him to find them.
6. Alabaster Moody -- has his eye to see the truth, thinks highly of
Dumbledoore and isn't afraid to fight V.
7. Longbottom (Neville's mother) -- fights alongside her husband with
special powers of her own.
8. Barty Crouch Sr. -- supports Dumbledoor and others to fight against
V.
9. A wizard we haven't met yet
10. A witch we haven't met yet

5 of the above people are dead or incapacitated to participate once
again. These will be replaced by:

1. Arthur Weasley -- he supports Dumbledoore and believes that V needs
to be fought asap
2. Severus Snape -- he really cannot go back to the Death Eaters, but
he supports Dumbledoore and now knows Sirius is an animagus. I believe
that both Sirius and Severus can overcome their hatred for each other
and fight side-by-side.
3. Minerva McGonnagal -- also supports Dumbledoore and is a strong
witch and animagus.
4. Remus Lupin -- his disability, so to speak, can be used to the
advantage of the group and fight V more effectively.
5. Amos Diggory -- V killed his son and he wants revenge. He is
willing to give his life to fight V.

Rena



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From anguis_1 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 08:40:27 2001
From: anguis_1 at yahoo.com (anguis_1 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:40:27 -0000
Subject: Why Draco Malfoy Isn't Evil ...
In-Reply-To: <99ar22+rql9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99cdpr+gj2d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14934

I've been lurking for a while, but I felt I just had to put my 2
cents 
worth in.  Since I work a lot with kids (mostly grade school) and my 
own high school experiences are still very fresh in my mind, I happen 
to have a very strong opinion on this topic.
Children who behave like Draco usually do not do so without reason. 
As 
quite a bit of fanfiction has asserted, the root of the problem is
most 
often found in the home.  Physical abuse does not have to be present 
(although it is all too common), nor even verbal abuse.  Neglect
(once 
again, not just physical) and even overindulgence can foster a 
seemingly unreasonable amount of genuine hatred.  Often, this strong 
emotion is not directed toward the responsible parties, but toward *
innocent* bystanders, such as a child's peers.  (This situation is
not 
limited to childhood, either.  Once a person gets started on this
path, 
it is extremely difficult to deviate from it, even in adulthood, when 
it is said that he or she *should know better.*)
(Just a note: I am not saying that all children from problematic
homes 
turn out like this.  There are plenty of people who somehow transcend 
their difficulties and become stronger for them.  However, it is 
impossible to discern why the same experiences can make one person 
bitter and cruel and another person compassionate.)
In dealing with children such as those I have described, I find that
I 
do not get angry at them, but at their parents/guardians.  So,
instead 
of condemning Draco, look for the cause of his actions, which, I 
believe, lies in his parents.

And now, just to show how much of nitpicker I am....
Cassie said,<"EVIL" is a big word and I'd use it 
> sparingly. It does not apply to "being mean.">
Personally, I agree with you, but if you look in the OED, evil has a 
very broad range of meaning, from "mischievous"(aha! I KNEW Harry was 
evil!;) to "unpleasant" to "offensive" to "prejudicial" to "hurtful"
to 
"vicious" to "wicked" to "morally depraved."
However, I agree with most of the rest of her post.





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 10:20:11 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 02:20:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] was Father figures, Snape, Dumbledore and Hogwarts ... now Snape/?
In-Reply-To: <00f301c0b236$a9fbbf40$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <20010322102011.48536.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14935

> Magda said:
> <pruned>
> A finally-grown-up-and-mature Snape, with a good woman at his side
> and a transforming experience behind him, would be a good
> headmaster. My money's on this outcome.
> 
> MY guess is that you would be first in line to apply for the job.
> hee hee


Puh-leeze!  I am just back-seat plotting for JKR, not fantasizing.  

__________________________________________________
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From minerva at femgeeks.net  Thu Mar 22 10:50:07 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:50:07 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance
Message-ID: <F34kg3AmsfGdMNFmWAF00006953@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14936

<<Hermione is good at *lots* besides school.  Besides, her being so good at 
school is itself against stereotype, >>
<snip>

Also, Hermione is't pretty. She has bushy hair and big teeth so she isn't 
the 'Cinderella' type of female character, either. You know what I mean, 
right, the kind of smart, bookish, non-attractive girl who is transformed 
into some sort of vamp because a boy/man decides to notice her and 'clean 
her up'.

Hermione is smart, she isn't pretty, and yet she gets romantic attention 
from Krum [and possibly Ron]. That part of the book made me grin like an 
asshole. Right on, JKR!

Sofie,
bookish and non-pretty, in case you hadn't guessed. <g>

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
- I don't want that kind of power.
- You're just afraid of it.
(Draco and Harry; contextless snippetty conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 12:52:23 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:52:23 -0000
Subject: Ron & Harry's Feeble Excuse
In-Reply-To: <3AB95D65.27649EE6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99csi7+fj93@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14937

I wrote:

> In any case, I find it kind of comical that Ron's excuse is so 
feeble
> and obviously false, yet Snape can't nail them and has to let them 
go.

Amanda pointed out:
>No, he didn't; Lupin swept them away before Snape could say anything.
>That excuse wouldn't have had a snowball's chance if Lupin hadn't 
been
>there.

Point taken...but would that really stop Snape if he thought he had 
the evidence to back himself up?  They may leave the room for the 
moment, but he can still give them detention, or grab them later and 
say "don't think you're getting away with this just because you wormed 
your way out of my office."

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------
 Crabbe and Goyle chuckled trollishly.
             -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
---------------------------------------------




From find_sam at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 13:09:48 2001
From: find_sam at hotmail.com (find_sam at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:09:48 -0000
Subject: Professor Grubbly-Plank
Message-ID: <99ctis+b6mv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14938

All the recent discussion about the gender balance got me thinking 
about the 'small' character of Professor Grubbly Plank, probably the 
second most female professor. Wait, third, after Professor Sprout. 
Fourth afterProfessor Sinistra, if Sinistra *is* a woman (which I 
reckon she is). Anyway, if I've forgotten some vital female professor 
(which I probably have) then please correct me!

Anyway. The point. JKR's said there'll be a female DADA teacher - 
maybe it'll be Grubbly-Plank? I know she's only taught Care of 
Magical Creatures up to this point in the canon, but she seems to 
know her stuff and would certainly make a strong female character. 
I'd very much like to see her return to the canon, if only for 
another brief stint. She's one of those small, (as yet) 
inconsequential characters who people like anyway... well, I like 
her :) 

By the way, Grubbly-Plank appears in chapter 24 of GoF, 'Rita 
Skeeter's Scoop', if anyone wants to look her up.




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 13:29:29 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:29:29 -0000
Subject: was Father figures,  ... Snape, Hogwarts, & Hermione
In-Reply-To: <3AB8EC02.823C22E6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99cunp+ql86@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14939

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> 
> I think this is pretty close to the mark, for the conscious 
reasons. But
> I also think he's sublimating a bit. I think he's still reacting to
> James and the Marauders, in his reactions to Harry, Ron, and 
Hermione.
> That, in my mind, is a big reason he doesn't seem to appreciate
> Hermione. He's still trying to "even" the score with James et al.,
> perhaps subconsciously.
> 
> I think that he favors Draco for similar multiple reasons. The clear
> ones that you stated above, but also he's casting Draco as himself, 
and
> he's letting Draco get away with stuff because he, Snape, probably 
felt
> like he never got any breaks.
> 
> Thoughts? O Ye Psychoanalysts out there?
> 
> --Amanda, who for some reason had inordinate trouble typing
> "psychoanalyst"

I find his attitude to the Malfoys very interesting. As a repentant 
DE he should be very much against them, since Lucius was such a 
prominent Voldy supporter. But no, Draco is his favorite, and I have 
the impression that he admires the Malfoys as a family too. 
So, what I think is that Snape truly believed that Lucius has either 
truly repented or that he never was a DE (he perhaps persuaded 
himself that it was all vicious rumours). If did believe that Lucius 
was a DE who repented he might feel a very strong sympathy towards 
Lucius and his family (arising from identification with him). Add to 
this his natural inclination towards an old, rich, "pureblooded" 
family, and it makes his attitude more understanble.
This would also explain why he was surprised when Harry mentioned 
that Lucius was at the DE convention.

Naama




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 22 14:08:08 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:08:08 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New book: "Harry Potter and the Bible : The Menace  Behind the Magick"
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010321210659.035d5360@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3ABA0748.B8295B4A@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14940

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:

> Has anyone seen/read this book yet?  I'm a bit distressed by the
> number of positive reviews it's receiving on Amazon.com.  I know we'd
> all probably get mad if we read it, but perhaps we should know what
> we're up against...?

I'm not surprised. By the very title, this book is aimed toward
purchasers who already disapprove of the Harry Potter books, and want
further justification for their position. They will far outnumber those
who are willing to spend money for intellectual curiosity, and then
actually bother to post a review. Although the long one that's listed
first under the book information is pretty well-done (the one by
"classica").

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar 22 14:19:06 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:19:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] was Father figures, Snape, Dumbledore and Hogwarts ... now Snape/?
References: <20010322102011.48536.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001701c0b2db$158b3340$8714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14941

> Magda said:
> <pruned>
> A finally-grown-up-and-mature Snape, with a good woman at his side
> and a transforming experience behind him, would be a good
> headmaster. My money's on this outcome.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> MY guess is that you would be first in line to apply for the job.
> hee hee
   Doreen
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Puh-leeze!  I am just back-seat plotting for JKR, not fantasizing.
**********************************

Oh... sorry. Well, in that case... I will be the first in line to apply for
the job.

Doreen




From simon at hp.inbox.as  Thu Mar 22 14:30:22 2001
From: simon at hp.inbox.as (Simon Branford)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:30:22 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Logo Competition
Message-ID: <99d29u+audh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14942

Hello all,

The time is upon us we all can vote to make an important decision. 
Every member of this group has the chance to vote and decide on the 
logo that will be used to promote the Harry Potter for Grown Ups 
Internet presence.


I take this opportunity to thank everyone who has deigned logos for 
us. Your efforts are much appreciated.


The logos are viewable on the graphics group:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics>
Go to Files and then Logos and then the two files are logos.htm and 
logos2.htm


Each of the logos has a number to the left of it. These are the logo
identification numbers, and you will need to remember the number of 
your favourite logo so that you can vote for it.

NOTE: There is no logo number 12, but it is listed in the poll. This 
is because for me to change anything on the poll would delete all 
votes currently cast in the poll, something that is not worth the 
hassle involved.


To vote you have to go to the Announcements group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements>. Once there you 
head towards the polls section and there you will find the logo poll
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements/surveys?
id=584551>.  You will need to join the Announcements group, if you 
have not done so already. Joining the Announcements list will benefit 
your life by giving you information about Harry Potter stuff (see 
message 14221
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/14221> for more 
information about the Announcement group).

You have until the end of this month (31st March) to cast your vote. 


If you have any questions or problems then feel free to contact me 
and, hopefully, I will be able to supply you with an answer.

Simon Branford





From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 22 14:33:28 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:33:28 -0600
Subject: Percy
References: <F165TMVwVn20lbhsKd6000067b6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ABA0D38.1E07D241@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14943

Hi --

Sofie 'Melle' Werkers wrote:

> That reminds me, does anyone else see a similarity between Percy and
> Snape? They both have an unbending reverence for rules, and there's
> been a few hints throughout GoF that Percy might go 'bad'.
>
> I don't have my copy here, so I can't look up the exact quotes, but at
> one point, Ron says Percy would, like Crouch and his son, let his
> family members be punished if they'd break the rules. There was
> another bit that made me afraid of/for Percy, but I can't recall it
> off the top of my head.

Ah -- so you're willing to believe that Ron is *right* about this?
Hermione certainly doesn't think Ron has accurately pegged his big
brother, and I agree with her.  I think this is yet another example of
Ron's impetuousness ... his tendency to come to rash & ill-considered
conclusions.  [Sidenote: I have alot to say about Ron .... and I'm
really anxious for the Ron character summary to be posted ... seeing as
how it's Thursday now, I may give up soon & just post my thoughts on Ron
that I've been holding for this week]

Suzanne raised this in her questions earlier this week, and I've been
meaning to comment.  Percy may be pompous & ambitious.  He may pay
slavish attention to rules, but when push comes to shove, my bet is that
Percy will put personal ambitions aside in favor of family loyalties.
There is evidence that Percy cares very deeply for his family members
... it must have escaped Ron's notice (he's proud & boastful about Ron
at the end-of-year Feast in PS/SS; he is extremely protective of &
worried about Ginny throughout CoS; he comes wading into the lake to
help pull Ron out in GoF -- looking paler & younger than usual ....).

My belief is that Percy will be very sorely challenged.  He'll want to
believe for awhile that he can have it both ways: an upwardly mobile
career in Fudge's MoM and a mutually supportive & caring relationship
with his family members.  I think he'll struggle, but when tested, he'll
make the right decision & side with his family.  I only hope that his
turn for the better won't come at the expense of someone's life.  I
don't *think* it will go that far, but I think it might come close.  I
think Percy will have a really interesting moral struggle though.

I've always liked Percy!  :--)

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 14:37:31 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 06:37:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron & Harry's Feeble Excuse
In-Reply-To: <99csi7+fj93@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010322143731.2164.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14944

I don't think it would be unusual for Ron to burst into Snape's
office with an alibi for Harry even without knowing what happened or
what was going on.

It was a dead certainty that Malfoy would rush to Snape to tell him
about Harry's head; Draco might have thought it was some kind of
spell but Snape wouldn't.

And again it wasn't by any means a long shot that Snape would demand
evidence that Harry was down in Hogsmead especially if Harry clammed
up and wouldn't talk during the questioning.  Ron could safely assume
that Harry would stall for as long as he could before answering
anything.

I see Ron's bursting into the office as less a confirmation of
anything he had reason to believe Harry said than blurting out the
story they were both to stick to.  

__________________________________________________
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From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 14:55:42 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:55:42 -0000
Subject: Misreading: My bad!!
Message-ID: <99d3pe+mjv0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14945

Geeez... what is wrong with my brain these days? *Groaning*

Hermione says in PoA: "It is my fa-
vorite subject."

For some reason when I last read this, I read in:

"It is my fa-
ther's favorite subject."

Must have been late at night. Sorry for the red herring guys!! I guess 
Hermione's Dad is just a muggle dentist.

--Suzanne




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 22 15:00:02 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:00:02 -0600
Subject: Hermione & the CoS Awards
References: <98r1qc+f5nn@eGroups.com> <3AB10FF3.D3BE55C5@swbell.net> <00c001c0adfc$7a40ba00$29f9e83f@rena> <004f01c0ae2e$7fead940$6014a3d1@doreen> <3AB7E94B.F80D091B@swbell.net> <00cf01c0b1db$00b83400$5914a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3ABA1372.7F22250C@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14946

Hi --

Doreen wrote:

> Maybe nobody told AD about Hermione's part in the whole scheme of
> things. If neither Harry nor Ron told that part of the story which
> included Hermione's brain storming, then AD can not be expected to
> reward her.

True.  But, Dumbledore knows alot that goes on ....

> Why did Hermione not complain about the lack of recognition?  I think
> that the three of them are so close by now, that they all share in
> each of their accomplishments, not caring who gets the social
> recognition or the credits.  As long as Gryffindor gets points, they
> all share a common pride, not caring who of the three of them got what
> points.

I don't think Hermione cared at all.  I just think JKR should have shown
her getting some recognition too since, in my mind, she was
indispensable to the end result.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 22 14:56:30 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:56:30 -0600
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
References: <99bvbf+oud6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABA129E.D48637D1@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14947

Hi --

joym999 at aol.com wrote:

> I just wanted to say, although the moderators will probably yell at
> me, that I think Susans analysis is right on-target.

Ahem.  *Why* would the Moderators yell at you for this?  *I* agree!
Susan's analysis is excellent, which is just what I told her last
October when she first posted it.  :--)  I don't necessarily agree in
full with all her conclusions, but I can't object to the logic of her
analysis.

Puzzled why this particular posting/thread would be viewed as something
the Moderator Group would disapprove of ... well-supported with canon &
logic, on-topic, well-written, not inflammatory ... hmm.... I must be
missing something.  <g>

> But before people start yelling I just want to emphasize that saying
> this does not in any way detract from the brillance and wonderfulness
> of the books.  To some degree, JKR is describing the world the way it
> is.  Men do still run the world, and women are still far more likely
> than men to not work and stay home and take care of the kids, etc.

I agree.  My own personal experience backs this up.  The legal field may
be largely 50/50 gender-wise, but the corporate transactional bar is
still 90% male in my judgment.  The executive-level clients are male ...
the senior lawyers are male .... the senior accountants are male ... the
investment bankers are more-often-than-not male.  A typical "working
group" for an IPO often (in my experience) involved about 20 males & 1-2
females.  Can't disagree too much on this score....

As I see it, Susan, Amy & Joy are all largely basing their arguments on
the numbers.  BTW, I agree with Amy's belief that perceptions can be
skewed (the notion that people perceive the numbers to be skewed to
females if it's actually equal).

My biggest complaint with the analysis Susan has adopted is that the
books are told from Harry's POV.  Yes, it would be great if Harry saw &
reported on some female/female bonding relationships.  But, his POV may
be preventing the readers from seeing some of this.  It is a limiting
factor that we should consider.

However, that said: JKR could let Harry see more strong female
characters in something other than supporting roles.  I agree!

I agree that Hermione is the exception rather than the rule.

I do give McGonagall more credit than Susan does.  I think she's alot
more than just an administrative type.  I've written reams about Minerva
before, and I'm certain that Neil has captured all of my brilliant
analysis in the McGonagall FAQ so I'll skip it for now.  <vbg>  Suffice
to say: I think McGonagall does qualify as a strong female character
(not as strong by any means as Hermione but then again, Harry interacts
with Hermione considerably more than he does with McGonagall so ...)

Most of the women are identified as partners/supporters of men -- I
agree with this.  But, I think Lily Potter will prove to be a very
strong female character separate & quite apart from her role as the
"mother who sacrified her life to save her son."  I think she was
probably a brilliant driven person who could hold her own in the fight
against Voldemort.  I think we'll learn all of this in one of the later
books.  So ... I add her to the column of strong female characters even
though we have little evidence of this at this point.

Like Susan, I'm also disturbed a bit by the fact that Rowena Ravenclaw &
Helga Hufflepuff are the founders of the 2 Houses that play such a
peripheral role in the series.  I think it's a point well-taken.  I
really do wish JKR would develop both these Houses more fully in the
later books.

Ginny Weasley -- there's potential.  But (:::cough:::), we've all been
saying that Ginny has "potential" since before GoF.  She was such a bit
player in the first 4 books (yeah ... yeah... yeah, she was "pivotal" to
the plot in Book 2, but really ... she was just a plot device in my mind
... definitely a victim with very few lines).  I know JKR said we'll see
more of Ginny, but I think she said that in the past and it didn't come
to pass with GoF so I'm not necessarily holding my breath.  OTOH, she is
a Weasley and will be older in OoP.  So ... maybe.  :--)

As I recall Susan -- you got mainly praise for this analysis last
October.  :::shrugs:::  Don't know why you feel the need to brace for a
"deluge" of criticism.  You've definitely made some great points.  My
main bone of contention is that you sell McGonagall short.  But, that's
minor really.  <g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 22 15:09:11 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:09:11 -0600
Subject: Malfoy redemption
References: <99b4kq+7jke@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABA1597.5C78B597@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14948

Hi --

cassandraclaire at mail.com wrote:

> rainylilac: In one interview someone asked her about Draco and she
> responded that he was a terrible person, the kind of boy "who knows
> exactly what will hurt someone most". In a recent interview I think
> someone asked if Draco would ultimately team up with Harry to fight
> evil and she responded "Where do you guys hear these things? No,
> absolutely not."
>
> Cassie responded: <snip> Also, in my records of that chat, she didn't
> say "no, absolutely not." She said "Don't believe everything you hear
> on the Internet."

That's what I have too.

> I 'spose my records could be wrong, but IMHO "no, absolutely not" is a
> very un-JKR response. She likes to leave these things open and not
> give away too much information. It's not like her to put the kibosh on
> a possible plot development although is IS like her to throw as much
> confusion towards that plot development as possible. So far in chat
> she's pretty much answered Malfoy-redemption related questions the way
> I
> would if I was planning on redeeming the little sucker.

I agree again.  I think she cloaks much of what she says in ambiguous
terms.  She gives a few "factual" responses: such as Lily's maiden name,
Harry's middle name, James Potter's Quidditch position.  But, many of
her answers are rather hedged or open to more than one interpretation.
<g>  I agree with Cassie that she doesn't seem to say things like
"absolutely," "definitely," etc. all that often.

> Do you really think that Snape wasn't pretty much exactly like Draco
> when he was at school? (Only possibly less popular and Draco probably
> has cleaner hair.) I wouldn't be surprised if he went around spouting
> off about Muggles and Mudbloods. He joined the Death Eaters, after
> all. And his redemptive possibilites are quite clear in canon.

This is the strongest argument I've seen for a possible Draco
redemption.  Clearly, Severus was seen by the Marauders in much the same
light as Draco is viewed by the Trio & other non-Slytherins.  But,
clearly, Snape is or can be redeemed.  So .... I definitely like this as
a sound basis for arguing a potential Draco turn-around.

Indigo said:

> He's made his choice and at present, to me, seems to have no desire
> whatsoever to change his ways.
>
Ah, but are his choices everything they seem to be on the surface?  I
think there might be more to it than that.  Possible anyway.

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From minerva at femgeeks.net  Thu Mar 22 15:24:02 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:24:02 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy
Message-ID: <F189LDiKBsuZ2K4xDh900006c23@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14949

<snip>
<<Percy may be pompous & ambitious.  He may pay slavish attention to rules, 
but when push comes to shove, my bet is that Percy will put personal 
ambitions aside in favor of family loyalties.>>
<snip>

Oh, undoubtably.  If it came down to the simple, straightforward choice 
between his career and his family, he would choose his family. But I don't 
think he'll ever have to make that choice, not that clearly, anyway.

The most distinct impression I get from Percy is of someone who is very 
strict about rules. He's not really hard to fool, as we see in GoF, where he 
simply executes what he believes to be his superior's instructions. He seems 
to me the kind of person who obeys the rules because they are the rules, not 
because he agrees with them. He doesn't seem to be very critical or 
questioning about authority.

Of course Percy wouldn't knowingly and willingly hurt *anyone*, least of all 
his own family, but he also wouldn't disobey his superiors unless they were 
so blatantly 'evil' [or so much in denial about Voldie's return] it would 
endanger people.

I do agree with Ron's remark that Percy is not the kind of person to use his 
influence/authority to get someone out from under what he would seeas their 
'just desserts'. [Apologies if that sentence is really screwed 
up/misspelled; I seem to have lost all ability to speak/write proper English 
today.]

I'm not saying Percy is 'evil', or even just 'bad'. I'm just saying that he 
is [or at least strikes me as] a 'wir haben es nicht gewusst' type of 
person. [And I don't speak German, so that spelling is probably waaaay off 
as well.]

Sofie

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
- I don't want that kind of power.
- You're just afraid of it.
(Draco and Harry; contextless snippetty conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl

_________________________________________________________________________
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From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar 22 15:53:38 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:53:38 -0000
Subject: Malfoy redemption
In-Reply-To: <3ABA1597.5C78B597@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99d762+3up7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14950

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> 
> > Do you really think that Snape wasn't pretty much exactly like 
Draco
> > when he was at school? (Only possibly less popular and Draco 
probably
> > has cleaner hair.) I wouldn't be surprised if he went around 
spouting
> > off about Muggles and Mudbloods. He joined the Death Eaters, after
> > all. And his redemptive possibilites are quite clear in canon.
> 
> This is the strongest argument I've seen for a possible Draco
> redemption.  Clearly, Severus was seen by the Marauders in much the 
same
> light as Draco is viewed by the Trio & other non-Slytherins.  But,
> clearly, Snape is or can be redeemed.  So .... I definitely like 
this as
> a sound basis for arguing a potential Draco turn-around.

When this same topic came around earlier, there had been a suggestion 
that JKR was making Draco so nasty (In HARRY'S PERSPECTIVE of course)
so that she could give him a sharp shock somewhere along the line & 
get him to be, if not nice and kind and sweet and boyscouty, at least 
fighting on the good guys' side - one of tthe listies stated that 
they thought that JKR was going to use Snape's leaving the death 
eaters to make that point, not "redeem" Draco.
And I was thinking about this yesterday, while working ont eh next 
chapter of Surfeit of Curses and it occured to me that such an 
approach would HAVE to be a "tell don't show" kind of explanation, 
the same way that the Shrieking Shack scene was a "tell don't show" 
explanation of how the secret keeper decision went completely awry. 
My understanding is that a general rule of fiction writing is that 
Showing is better than Telling - therefore, any narrative where it's 
shown - Draco getting redeemed - is inherently more powerful than a 
narrative where Snape tells Harry (or Dumbledore tells harry about 
snape, which is one inch less powerful still) about why he left the 
death eaters - even if he says, "I did it because I was in love with 
your mother...."




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 16:01:54 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:01:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Malfoy redemption
In-Reply-To: <3ABA1597.5C78B597@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010322160154.7144.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14951

>> Do you really think that Snape wasn't pretty much exactly like
>> Draco when he was at school? (Only possibly less popular and Draco
>> probably has cleaner hair.) I wouldn't be surprised if he went 
>> around spouting off about Muggles and Mudbloods. He joined the 
>> Death Eaters, after all. And his redemptive possibilites are quite

>> clear in canon.
> 
> This is the strongest argument I've seen for a possible Draco
> redemption.  

Actually, I don't think Snape was at all like Draco.  I think Snape
THINKS Draco was just like him.  Snape came from a poor family (re
allusion to yellowed, uneven teeth - usually a dead giveaway in
British literature to a less-than-middle-class background) and had no
friends in school.  Draco doesn't have friends since Crabbe and Goyle
are more like hulking pets than pals.  It's also quite likely that
Snape has a very romantic view of the aristocracy which Draco comes
from.

I don't believe that muggles and mudbloods bother Snape that much. 
We'd have heard about it by now.  Would Dumbledore have hired him in
that case?  He's mean and nasty but it's an equal-opportunity mean
and nasty; in fact, he's meanest of all to poor Neville who's
pure-blood.

I don't think Draco will be redeemed.  He'll just get a bad shock
when he realizes that he and/or his father are being used by V.  Not
the same thing as a change of heart.

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From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 22 16:21:15 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:21:15 -0600
Subject: Malfoy redemption
References: <20010322160154.7144.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ABA267B.E9CDD121@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14952

Hi --

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Actually, I don't think Snape was at all like Draco.

Magda: aren't you the one who hasn't read GoF yet?  I don't want to
spoil it for you ....but there's some very clear parallels between Snape
& Draco Malfoy in Ch 27 of GoF.

> I think Snape THINKS Draco was just like him.

I'm not as concerned with Snape's perceptions about Draco or vice versa
as I am about how others perceive them both.  It seems that Snape's
peers viewed him in much the same way as Draco's peers view him.

> Draco doesn't have friends since Crabbe and Goyle are more like
> hulking pets than pals.

Yeah ... but it seems Draco is reasonably well-liked amongst the
Slytherins in general.  That's my impression anyway.  I don't Crabbe &
Goyle are his only companions -- they are just the ones he's seen with
most often.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 16:32:00 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:32:00 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
Message-ID: <F262LsxpTljBOh8s4KW000053a1@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14953

The e-boogeyman's been eating my messages.  I'm trying to send again - hope 
the formatting didn't come out too strange and all the separations are in 
the right place (didn't save a copy to my sent file cuz it was coming right 
back, ugh.)

Susan wrote:
<snip>>     But I must sugges(t that the books are male-identified. Hermione 
is the exception. Hermione is not like the other girls in the HP books. She 
doesn't giggle, run in packs, or do a lot of the other traditionally girl 
behavior.


I'd have to say - of course she doesn't.  Then again, she does (remember 
Lockhart?) - the thing is, "Harry" actually saw her giggling over Lockhart, 
and he commented on it.  All "Harry" sees are girls who giggle - Hermione 
wasn't "really" a girl until GoF.  He never really paid attention to girls 
until he saw Cho in PoA, so of course he only noticed the ones walking in 
the halls and talking when they were giggling and in packs.  I think now 
that he's older we'll find out more about "individual" girls - because he'll 
be paying more attention to them and finding out more about them.

<snip>> By the way, being  male-identified does not mean that one is "less 
of a woman" or "not female". It doesn't mean weak.  It means that when you 
look at a movie you identify with the men (usually because they are the ones 
doing the brave resourceful things). <snip> It means that you don't see 
other women as role models, allies, friends, mentors..... <snip>

I don't consider myself (or Hermione) male-identified.  I did, in fact,
spend many a lunch hour watching the packs of girls giggle, talk about
make-up, talk about hair, talk about boys ... that's what most girls that 
age do.  JKR can't change that and still have a story that rings "true" -- 
it would leave the reader with the impression that the way she is is what, 
wrong?  What would we be telling all the girls who do giggle (and identify 
with Pavarti) and make fun of girls like Hermione (and go through normal 
human emotional growth/dysfunction) if we wrote them out of the story or 
gave them noone to identify with?

<snip>>Just as many strong, intelligent women, she survives/flourishes by 
hanging out with men and bonding with men.<snip>


I never spent much time hanging out with those giggling girls either.  Not 
because I identified myself with the boys I hung around with, but because 
they didn't care if I was wearing makeup or the latest hairstyle or where I 
bought my clothes.  I think it's the same with Hermione.

<snip> >But there are no men in the HP books who are defined merely as 
fathers/partners. There are no men who work inside the home, but not outside 
the home.


How many wizarding families (or Muggle families) have we even met?  Harry 
only knows about his own and his friends' families - we have no way of 
knowing weather Dean Thomas or the Patils, for example, are raised by single 
or stay-at-home Dads.

<snip>> We know a bunch about James and his friends, but almost nothing 
about Lily.


I won't go into my theory on that one again except to say that maybe you 
can't go into details about Lily without giving away essential secrets. heh

 >>    Then, we have the four houses. We know the most about Gryffindor, 
then Slytherin.   Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw are the houses we know less 
about.


I go with the theory that this is Harry's world.  He's in Gryffindor. Most 
of the people who give him problems are in Slytherin.  He's got classes with 
Slytherins (two, I think, Potions and Creatures) and only one class with 
Hufflepuffs (Sprout).  We know so much about Salazar because of his "Heir". 
Do we know any more about the founder of Gryffindor than we do about 
Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw?

<snip>>I myself was furious at her for not standing up to Cornelius Fudge 
and>letting the Dementor give the kiss to BC, Jr.
<snip>
She's a schoolteacher and he's a government official.  Besides stating her 
disagreement, what else could she do?

<snip> But I'm afraid that in the books she is not that strong a character, 
certainly not if you contrast her with Sirius or Lupin or Crouch.
<snip>
Sirius?  Has shown that he can turn into an animal - so can she.  He kept 
his mind in Azkaban.  He risked himself to go back to Hogwarts to see about 
Harry (GoF). Are those strengths?  Instead of sending Crookshanks with a 
message to Dumbledore (sensible considering that Dumbledore probably could 
have forced Peter to transform and had easier access to Ron), he has 
Crookshanks steal the passwords so he can break in and commit murder.
(Before the tomatoes come flying, I love Sirius - I just see his weaknesses 
for what they are...and realize they develop the story better than 
"sensible" might have. :)

Lupin?  He doubted the innocence of a good friend.  Failed to alert
Dumbledore of a possible threat (both that Sirius was animagi and that he 
had a way in).  He runs away instead of facing adversity. What strength did 
he display? (Again, I have to see my future husband with clearer eyes than I 
saw my ex. lol)

Crouch? Hmmm. More than I want to say - don't see that he displayed any
strength at all.
<snip>


>>     Ginny Weasley has potential. But Ginny is mostly seen as the girl who 
>>has the crush on Harry.

<snip>

Still how Harry sees her.  She might actually like Neville. :)

<snip>>The issue of "gender balance" is about which gender gets the most
"space", time, attention, focus.
<snip>

If the story were written from a girls point of view, I'd expect to see more 
female relationships.  Boys don't care about female bonding (meaning Harry 
wouldn't notice).



 >>    Once again, I brace myself for the deluge....
     Susan


I understand where you're coming from.  My perspective is, though, that just 
like I didn't identify with the gigglers, I didn't identify with the "males" 
in a story either.  If I put myself into a story, I created/edited the role 
to suit me.  I guess the heart of the issue for me is that I don't care 
that/if most of the memorable characters in HP are male.  They are "real" 
enough that I can care about what happens to them and try to guess what they 
are going to do/think and it's a good story (just enough of everything to 
keep me interested without overkill anywhere - knockknockknock).  That's all 
that really matters to me.  As long as there are books that do have strong 
female characters, it doesn't bother me that all books don't have strong 
female characters.

a.
_________________________________________________________________
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From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 16:37:10 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:37:10 -0000
Subject: Malfoy redemption
In-Reply-To: <3ABA267B.E9CDD121@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99d9nm+mqr2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14954

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

> Yeah ... but it seems Draco is reasonably well-liked amongst the
> Slytherins in general.  That's my impression anyway.  I don't Crabbe 
&
> Goyle are his only companions -- they are just the ones he's seen 
with
> most often.
> 

My impression has always been that Draco is very popular in his 
house-- most of the Slytherins seem to follow his lead, and he is 
usually at the center of things. He is physically attractive, appears 
to have had no trouble finding a pretty girlfriend, and Crabbe and 
Goyle (pets or not) unquestioningly regard him as a leader. Also, 
let's face it, Slytherins are supposed to like power, and the Malfoy 
family has plenty of that.

I think his big shock will be that his family's life is going to 
become more difficult with the rise of Voldermort. His father, after 
all, is NOT among the most favored of the Deatheaters since he took 
the easy way out and avoided Azkaban. I think Draco just assumes that 
the world will be at his feet. He is due for being brought down a few 
notches.

Will this equal redemption? I don't see any signs of it. True, JKR 
hasn't ruled it out (I was quoting VERY loosely btw), but she has not 
said anything that I have read to indicate that this was anything she 
was thinking of.

Redemption or no, Draco's life is going to become more complex. I 
think we will see that.

--Suzanne




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Mar 22 16:50:41 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:50:41 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <3ABA129E.D48637D1@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99dah1+gumj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14955

Joy wrote:
 
>> I just wanted to say, although the moderators will probably yell at
> > me, that I think Susans analysis is right on-target.
> 

Penny said:

> Ahem.  *Why* would the Moderators yell at you for this?  *I* agree!
> Susan's analysis is excellent, which is just what I told her last
> October when she first posted it.  :--)  I don't necessarily agree 
> in  full with all her conclusions, but I can't object to the logic 
of her analysis.

I'm not yelling either.  This is an important topic, IMO, and well 
worth exploring again.

I think I also responded to Susan's original post, and the main point 
of which being, IIRC, that she felt that the female characters were 
being sidelined.  It's hard to ignore the fact that most of the main 
players are male, but I suggested that there were reasons why the 
female characters were less prominent (primarily the fact that we see 
things from Harry's POV).  Like Penny, I don't disagree with Susan's 
observations; I just don't see it as evidence of sexism on JKR's part.

When it comes to strong girls/women, we definitely have Minerva, 
Molly, Hermione and Angelina at the forefront there, plus Rita 
Skeeter and Madame Maxime.  The main area that bugs me is the 
wizarding government - isn't the hapless Bertha Jorkins the only 
woman mentioned in connection with the MoM?  To me, that's an 
indication of a patriarchal bias. 

I guess we shouldn't conclude that sexism in the canon = sexism in 
JKR.  I think she has more than a few surprises up her capacious 
sleeves in relation to social inequalities.  

Neil (still in New York, and possibly entering this thread at 
entirely the wrong moment).


  


  





From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 17:00:36 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (aprilgc at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:00:36 -0000
Subject: was Father Figures,...Snape, Hogwarts, & Hermione
Message-ID: <99db3k+kfk2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14956

I am also sorry if this comes twice.  I think Sofie and are are having 
the same problem (glad to know it's not just me).  The return message I 
got on this one says it will keep trying to deliver unitl Sunday --but 
will it even be relevant then? lol.

Magda Grantwich wrote: 

     > Has anyone noticed how fanatical Snape is in his reverence for 
     > Hogwarts?  Rules are everything. And he can come up with no 
worse punishment for Harry - who he loathes - than expulsion from 
Hogwarts: a fate he seems to regard as the equivalent of exile. 

     Oooooh. Wow. Mmmmm. Yes. Very, very good observation. It's true. 
Outer darkness, ultimate fate to wreak upon Harry = expulsion. And 
Sirius says Snape was always trying to get the Marauders expelled, too. 
So was Hogwarts the home that Snape didn't have where he came from? 
Have all his actions been somewhat "protective" of Hogwarts, too--even 
the bad ones? Was he trying to get disrespectful troublemakers out of 
Hogwarts where they didn't belong, instead of it being a personal 
dislike? Was he involved with the Death Eaters for a similar reason? 
Great insight, I'd never thought of that. 

     --Amanda 

     Why does he also antagonize Hermione, who is striving to be THE 
Hogwarts prize pupil? 

     Doreen 


She's not a Slytherin?  She's a girl? She's not from a strong wizarding 
family?  She's a know-it-all?  She reminds him of a girl he went out 
with who dumped him for Sirius Black? <g> Maybe Snape wants young 
Malfoy to continue to think he's still on "their" side - so Lucius 
won't set out to "get" him, and the reports of things Draco's overheard 
and feels like a bigshot for repeating will keep coming. 

I actually like the thought about Hogwarts being "home" for Snape (and 
leaving Hogwarts being the reason he joined the DEs).  People who feel 
they have no place to belong do tend to get sucked into cults, don't 
they? 
a. 





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Thu Mar 22 17:07:26 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:07:26 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius
In-Reply-To: <99b2rn+kj2m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKMEJFCBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 14957


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Z [mailto:aiz24 at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 9:28 PM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius - Snape & McGonagall - Draco's pants
> 
> 
> Monika wrote:
> 
> >But this raises another question: doesn't anyone find it strange that 
> >he was supposed to be Voldy's second in command if he was only 
> >21 or 22 in 1981? 

Amy wrote:

> Good point.  I think we hear the "You-Know-Who's right hand man" thing 
> from Stan Shunpike, no?  Or is it from Fudge?

Fudge says something like that, too:
"I must say, You-Know-Who alone and friendless is one thing...
but give him back his most devoted servant, and I shudder to
think how quickly he'll raise again..."
Of course "most devoted servant" is not exactly the same thing
as "right hand man", but it implies that Fudge believes (or wants
to make us/the wizarding world believe) that Sirius was not only
very close to Voldy, but also very high in the hierarchy.

> If the former, I think it might not be fact, but the embellishment of 
> legend.  Stan, who is too young to remember the actual event, got the 
> story many times removed, and he's laying it on thick for Harry.  

There is certainly something like legend or myth involved, but
it seems that someone spread the rumor that Sirius was indeed
Voldy's right hand man. What made people believe that Sirius was
so powerful a wizard? I still don't get it...

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From bbennett at joymail.com  Thu Mar 22 17:49:06 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:49:06 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <3ABA0D38.1E07D241@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99ddui+4gh9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14958

Penny, *excellent* post on Percy - this exactly sums up my feelings 
on him. As you pointed out, there is much evidence that he cares for 
his family. His flaws are often pointed to, but it has to be 
remembered that we're getting this from Harry's POV, who is closer to 
Ron than to any of the other Weasleys (i.e. Percy annoys Ron, and to 
a lesser degree, annoys Harry as well?). I've always liked the part 
in GoF when Percy leans out the window to yell about the racket in 
the yard, and Bill smiles and apologizes, gently humoring him. It 
seems to me that the older Weasleys love and see good things in 
Percy, regardless of how straight-laced he can be. We can't depend 
only on Ron's (or Harry's) opinion of Percy.

B

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 

> Suzanne raised this in her questions earlier this week, and I've 
been meaning to comment.  Percy may be pompous & ambitious.  He may 
pay slavish attention to rules, but when push comes to shove, my bet 
is that Percy will put personal ambitions aside in favor of family 
loyalties. There is evidence that Percy cares very deeply for his 
family members ...it must have escaped Ron's notice (he's proud & 
boastful about Ron at the end-of-year Feast in PS/SS; he is extremely 
protective of & worried about Ginny throughout CoS; he comes wading 
into the lake to help pull Ron out in GoF -- looking paler & younger 
than usual ....).
 
> My belief is that Percy will be very sorely challenged.  He'll want 
to believe for awhile that he can have it both ways: an upwardly 
mobile career in Fudge's MoM and a mutually supportive & caring 
relationship with his family members.  I think he'll struggle, but 
when tested, he'll make the right decision & side with his family.  I 
only hope that his turn for the better won't come at the expense of 
someone's life.  I don't *think* it will go that far, but I think it 
might come close.  I think Percy will have a really interesting moral 
struggle though.>




From indigo at indigosky.net  Thu Mar 22 18:10:10 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:10:10 -0000
Subject: Hermione's Prettiness:  was  Gender balance
In-Reply-To: <F34kg3AmsfGdMNFmWAF00006953@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <99df62+lc3l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14959

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie 'Melle' Werkers" <minerva at f...> 
wrote:
> <<Hermione is good at *lots* besides school.  Besides, her being so 
good at 
> school is itself against stereotype, >>
> <snip>
> 
> Also, Hermione is't pretty. She has bushy hair and big teeth so she 
isn't 
> the 'Cinderella' type of female character, either. You know what I 
mean, 
> right, the kind of smart, bookish, non-attractive girl who is 
transformed 
> into some sort of vamp because a boy/man decides to notice her 
and 'clean 
> her up'.


She's pretty now.

She had her teeth minimized after a misfired curse got her and gave 
her superlong chipmunk teeth.

She let Madam Pomfrey reduce them to a much more fetching size, by 
not telling her to stop reducing her teeth when they were at their 
original size, but only saying "okay now" when they were at a size 
Hermione considered more agreeable.

And Hermione can have non-bushy hair as she showed at the Yule dance 
when she dolled up.  She just said it's too much of a pain in the 
neck to do that every day.  

So she is conscious of her appearance, and changes it on her own 
terms, if and when she sees fit. But her education still takes front 
seat.

Attagirl, Hermione!


Indigo
[who got dreadlocks to do away with the bad hair days because a 
relaxer every three weeks is TOO EXPENSIVE and too much of a pain to 
set every night]




From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 18:29:54 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:29:54 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map fluttered out of Harry's hands AGAIN?
Message-ID: <F7IBjhyMVYUQMcYGNuV00008293@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14960


>I just cannot see Snape giving Harry anything back. In PoA he got
>Harry got it back because Lupin left, and Snape will remember that
>Lupin had taken it. Snape is just too suspicious of anything that has
>to do with Harry.
>If Harry didn't take it, then Moody will find it in his office, know
>what it is and keep it. After all, Moody is very suspicious of
>anything, and a map like that would work to his advantage. I think
>we'll see him in book 5 as the DADA professor.
>
>However, someone mentioned that Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Neville
>would come up with a new map. While I cannot see Neville working on
>that, I can imagine that Fred and George would come up with a new one
>and help H, H, and Ron make it.
>
>Rena
>
I only mentioned Neville because of Harry's realization that he'd never 
asked Neville about his family (GoF don't remember the chapter right now), 
combined with guilty feelings about Cedric -- then compounded because of 
what "Moody" said about his pride keeping him from talking to Neville.  I 
think Neville's going to become a bit closer to the Trio next time out. 
Harry's going to bring him in more (maybe not to make a map <g>); Hermione's 
going to coach him; and he's going to be dating Ron's sister <g>.  I think 
we're going to find out more about him and what he's made of.

a.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Mar 22 18:39:12 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:39:12 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy V. Numerology (was Re: Arithmancy, Etc.)
In-Reply-To: <999rq3+ired@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99dgsg+42io@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14961

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., zora_djevojka at y... wrote:
> Several listees have posted comments about Arithmancy 
> being "divination by numbers" or similar to numerology (sorry, lost 
> track of individual names).

Okay, I found these about arithmancy and numerology. Apparently, 
they're different.

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/arithmancy.html
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/n/numerology.html

:-)Milz




From indigo at indigosky.net  Thu Mar 22 18:39:17 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:39:17 -0000
Subject: Hermione & the CoS Awards
In-Reply-To: <3ABA1372.7F22250C@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99dgsl+ku4g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14962

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> Doreen wrote:
> 
> > Maybe nobody told AD about Hermione's part in the whole scheme of
> > things. If neither Harry nor Ron told that part of the story which
> > included Hermione's brain storming, then AD can not be expected to
> > reward her.
> 
> True.  But, Dumbledore knows alot that goes on ....
> 
> > Why did Hermione not complain about the lack of recognition?  I 
think
> > that the three of them are so close by now, that they all share in
> > each of their accomplishments, not caring who gets the social
> > recognition or the credits.  As long as Gryffindor gets points, 
they
> > all share a common pride, not caring who of the three of them got 
what
> > points.
> 
> I don't think Hermione cared at all.  I just think JKR should have 
shown
> her getting some recognition too since, in my mind, she was
> indispensable to the end result.
> 
> Penny

My guess is Hermione doesn't believe she deserves a reward.  Although 
she found out the secret of the creature, she got nailed by it and 
wasn't able to get the information out where it would do any good -- 
and thus more bad things happened.

She'd have complained if she hadn't got petrified, had been awake and 
mobile,  and had been a bigger part of the takedown.






From indigo at indigosky.net  Thu Mar 22 18:43:30 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:43:30 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <F189LDiKBsuZ2K4xDh900006c23@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <99dh4i+6s7s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14963

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie 'Melle' Werkers" <minerva at f...> 
wrote:
> <snip>
> <<Percy may be pompous & ambitious.  He may pay slavish attention 
to rules, 
> but when push comes to shove, my bet is that Percy will put 
personal 
> ambitions aside in favor of family loyalties.>>
> <snip>
> 
> Oh, undoubtably.  If it came down to the simple, straightforward 
choice 
> between his career and his family, he would choose his family. But 
I don't 
> think he'll ever have to make that choice, not that clearly, anyway.
> 
> The most distinct impression I get from Percy is of someone who is 
very 
> strict about rules. He's not really hard to fool, as we see in GoF, 
where he 
> simply executes what he believes to be his superior's instructions. 
He seems 
> to me the kind of person who obeys the rules because they are the 
rules, not 
> because he agrees with them. He doesn't seem to be very critical or 
> questioning about authority.
> 
> Of course Percy wouldn't knowingly and willingly hurt *anyone*, 
least of all 
> his own family, but he also wouldn't disobey his superiors unless 
they were 
> so blatantly 'evil' [or so much in denial about Voldie's return] it 
would 
> endanger people.
> 
> I do agree with Ron's remark that Percy is not the kind of person 
to use his 
> influence/authority to get someone out from under what he would 
seeas their 
> 'just desserts'. [Apologies if that sentence is really screwed 
> up/misspelled; I seem to have lost all ability to speak/write 
proper English 
> today.]
> 
> I'm not saying Percy is 'evil', or even just 'bad'. I'm just saying 
that he 
> is [or at least strikes me as] a 'wir haben es nicht gewusst' type 
of 
> person. [And I don't speak German, so that spelling is probably 
waaaay off 
> as well.]
> 
> Sofie

I believe it's a moot point now, given that he's seen what result 
putting career over family first and then trying to reverse can come 
to.

Percy would, to my mind, want in no way, shape or form to turn out 
like Barty Crouch Senior.

I think he'd then work with family to make sure the person was 
reahabilitated.

Though that brings up an interesting question:

Azkaban exists, we know that.

Is there a rehabilitation procedure for wizards who have strayed and 
are not beyond redemption? 

Or is Azkaban IT?  BAd wizard, no cookie, no happy memories.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar 22 19:45:54 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 19:45:54 -0000
Subject: Sirius
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKMEJFCBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <99dkpi+bnbj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14964

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...> wrote:

> > Monika wrote:
> > 
> > >But this raises another question: doesn't anyone find it strange that 
> > >he was supposed to be Voldy's second in command if he was only 
> > >21 or 22 in 1981? 
> 
> Amy wrote:
 What made people believe that Sirius was
> so powerful a wizard? I still don't get it...

Marie-Joseph-Paul-Yves-Roch-Gilbert du Motier better known as the 
Marquis de Lafayette, hero of the Revolutionary War, was appointed a 
major general in the colonial forces at the age of 19, and was a close 
confidante of George Washington. 

Pippin





From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Thu Mar 22 20:02:18 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:02:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius
In-Reply-To: <99dkpi+bnbj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103221448390.28801-100000@er6.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14965

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001 foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> > Amy wrote:
> > What made people believe that Sirius was
> > so powerful a wizard? I still don't get it...
> 
> Marie-Joseph-Paul-Yves-Roch-Gilbert du Motier better known as the 
> Marquis de Lafayette, hero of the Revolutionary War, was appointed a 
> major general in the colonial forces at the age of 19, and was a close 
> confidante of George Washington. 

Is that really a fair comparison though?  Certainly, throughout history
there have been lots of people to have accomplished major military
exploits by that age, but very few of them, if I'm not mistaken, were
still in school (minors) at 17/18.  The wizarding world seems to
coincide with the Muggle world in having a notion of adolescence, a
period between childhood and adulthood, which greatly delays the
beginning of adulthood.  If you've only just entered adulthood, it's
difficult to become a successful general.

But I don't know that the military model of open warfare is really the
best one to use for Voldemort's organization anyway.  There were no
battles or armies involved, as far as I understand -- it seemes much
more like the model of a secret, revolutionary society (the conspiracy
model), with a 'catchy name' (Death Eaters), an anti-establishment
mentality, insignia and loyalty oaths (the Dark Mark), secrecy of
membership (no card-carrying for them), even plausible deniability for
the members at the top (Lucius, e.g.).  Had it progressed, it might well
have turned into an open groups, but I don't think it had yet at the
time of Voldemort's defeat while trying to kill baby Harry.

Given that secrecy, it seems more likely that Sirius could have been
believably high-ranking, even second in command.  After all, we (and the
wizarding world in general) know very little about the actual
organization of the Death Eaters, and what made some of them more
important than others.  Loyalty to V and his ideas?  Magical
ability?  Cunning?  If it was the first, pure fanaticism, it's perfectly
understandable that people would've believed Sirius to be high-ranking,
since he'd just apparently demonstrated his committment to V by killing
his best friend and his wife.  (The other two I find harder to believe
that someone of Sirius' age and temperament could've been expected to
have in large amounts enough to be at the top of the conspiracy.)

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar 22 20:11:23 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 20:11:23 -0000
Subject: Sirius. Spy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103221448390.28801-100000@er6.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <99dm9b+tqt4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14966

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at e...> wrote:
> But I don't know that the military model of open warfare is really 
the
> best one to use for Voldemort's organization anyway.  There were no
> battles or armies involved, as far as I understand -- it seemes much
> more like the model of a secret, revolutionary society (the 
conspiracy
> model), with a 'catchy name' (Death Eaters), an anti-establishment
> mentality, insignia and loyalty oaths (the Dark Mark), secrecy of
> membership (no card-carrying for them), even plausible deniability 
for
> the members at the top (Lucius, e.g.).  <SNIP> 
> Given that secrecy, it seems more likely that Sirius could have been
> believably high-ranking, even second in command.  After all, we 
(and the
> wizarding world in general) know very little about the actual
> organization of the Death Eaters, and what made some of them more
> important than others.  Loyalty to V and his ideas?  Magical
> ability?  Cunning?  

A weird thought just crossed my mind. Would it be... Could it be 
possible that *sirius* was spying on Voldemort's organization from 
the inside? I know we're all assuming that task was Snape's, but do 
we know - can we be very very very sure - that Sirius wasn't spying 
on, say, the lower levels of the organization (the group that wasn't 
trusted enough to get the Dark Mark yet - i.e. the trainees), and 
Snape wasn't spying on the mid-level echelons? It might explain why 
people found it so easy to believe that Sirius was on Voldemort's 
side - if he'd been acting that way for a while, even undercover...
And it would've made sense, from the Potters' and Dumbledore's 
perspective - who would make a better secret keeper than someone who 
You Know Who thinks is in league with him, but really isn't?

This is completely far-fetched, I know...but....still.....




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar 22 20:24:39 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:24:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius. Spy?
References: <99dm9b+tqt4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c0b30e$24409460$8714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14967


A weird thought just crossed my mind. Would it be... Could it be
possible that *sirius* was spying on Voldemort's organization from
the inside? I know we're all assuming that task was Snape's, but do
we know - can we be very very very sure - that Sirius wasn't spying
on, say, the lower levels of the organization (the group that wasn't
trusted enough to get the Dark Mark yet - i.e. the trainees), and
Snape wasn't spying on the mid-level echelons? It might explain why
people found it so easy to believe that Sirius was on Voldemort's
side - if he'd been acting that way for a while, even undercover...
And it would've made sense, from the Potters' and Dumbledore's
perspective - who would make a better secret keeper than someone who
You Know Who thinks is in league with him, but really isn't?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I believe that the main reason that Sirius gave for not being James & Lily's
secret keeper, was that he would be the very first person that Voldemort
would come looking for because of their great friendship, his being James &
Lily's best man at their wedding, and the godfather of their son. Your idea
was a good one ... because Sirius chose Pettigrew as his replacement. He
must have had a good reason to think that they would never question him.
Maybe Pettigrew had all of his friends convinced he was spying against V.
when actually he was spying for him.
Doreen
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is completely far-fetched, I know...but....still.....



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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 20:39:32 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 20:39:32 -0000
Subject: Percy - Pansy - Strong women 
Message-ID: <99dnu4+9ttq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14968

Penny wrote:

>My belief is that Percy will be very sorely challenged.  He'll want 
to
>believe for awhile that he can have it both ways: an upwardly mobile
>career in Fudge's MoM and a mutually supportive & caring relationship
>with his family members.  I think he'll struggle, but when tested, 
he'll
>make the right decision & side with his family.

This scenario resonates with me. Also, this is not a struggle between 
the Good Guys and the Bad Guys, but between the Good Guys and the 
Good but Fooled by their Own Wishful Thinking Guys, i.e. Fudge.  
Fudge may turn out to be a baddie, but so far he is on the right 
side, not at all pro-Voldemort.  If Percy fails the Dumbledore side, 
it will be in this way, IMO.

Suzanne wrote:

>He is physically attractive, appears to have had no trouble finding 
a pretty girlfriend

Rita describes her as pretty; the narration describes her as 
resembling a pug! We know Harry's POV is biased, but I still think 
the latter is more accurate.  Rita calls her pretty to give her more 
credibility in her Hermione-bashing.

However, I agree with your basic point?Draco seems to be popular 
among the Slytherins.  

Penny wrote:

>I think McGonagall does qualify as a strong female character
>(not as strong by any means as Hermione but then again, Harry 
interacts
>with Hermione considerably more than he does with McGonagall so ...)

I really like McGonagall, and I think she's an excellent character?
more well-rounded, on a close reading, than the "strict spinster with 
the heart of gold" stereotype.  She definitely qualifies as a strong 
female character, IMO (and, Susan, I'll defend her in the Dementor-
Kissing-Crouch-Jr. scene?those Dementors can move fast when they want 
to, and Snape, who was there too, was equally powerless to stop it).  
We just don't see nearly as much of her as I would like.  This may 
change


I do wonder whether women's increased prominence in QTA indicates 
that JKR has been influenced by this question.  Quidditch has always 
been the place where her feminism shows up most clearly, I would say?
just to conceive of a sport that has mixed-gender teams at all (=and= 
women actually get onto, and can be stars of, the teams) is a leap 
beyond the way things are in our world.  

As for Lily:  I think that Lily's secondary status is almost entirely 
a fan creation; I don't think it's in the books...much.  It's true 
that we hear more about James, esp. in PoA of course, so there's a 
page-time discrepancy, but all in all I think they're pretty even.  
Fans tend to assume that James was the better wizard; that's reading 
quite a lot into a passing statement that Sirius and James were two 
of the most brilliant students.  And if I read one more fanfic with 
quiet, lovely little Lily gazing, Nancy Reagan-like, up at James 
while he does exciting, rambunctious, brilliant things with the 
boys . . . come on!  The woman came out of a Muggle family and became 
head girl and "one of the best" (something like that?Hagrid, 
PS/SS).   She was clearly a powerful witch.  She stood up to 
=Voldemort= at the tender age of 21.  There is no reason to think she 
is any less feisty than her very spirited kid (or his friend 
Hermione, the other Muggle-born girl we know who's top of her class), 
other than our own assumptions about what women are like.

JKR can definitely create strong female characters when she wants 
to.  Let's have lots more!  

Amy Z
looking forward to that female DADA teacher?I wouldn't even mind if 
it were Fleur




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 20:50:30 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 20:50:30 -0000
Subject: Sirius; Fudge eats words
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKMEJFCBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <99doin+qdqg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14969

Monika wrote:

> 
> Fudge says something like that, too:
> "I must say, You-Know-Who alone and friendless is one thing...
> but give him back his most devoted servant, and I shudder to
> think how quickly he'll raise again..."

When does he say this?  It's now, isn't it?  So Fudge has had 13 
years to think of Sirius as the person who was so devoted to 
Voldemort that he'd turn his best friend & his family over to be 
murdered.  From Fudge's POV (and everyone else's), Sirius exposed 
himself as a DE the night the Potters died, and then found himself in 
a very bad way because his Master fell.  The whole story as told and 
retold in the past 13 years implies that Sirius was very high up in 
the DEs.  But that's all an explanation after the fact, an attempt to 
explain Sirius's actions that night and then vs. Pettigrew; no one 
thought of Sirius as V's "right-hand-man" or anything like it before 
then, because they thought he was on the right side.  At least, such 
stars of the anti-V effort as Dumbledore, James, and Lily did, and 
presumably Fudge did too.

BTW, it's very interesting to be reminded that Fudge said that, in 
light of his actions in GoF.  When informed that You-Know-Who did 
indeed get back his most devoted servant (well, one of them), he 
nevertheless flatly refuses to believe that he's risen again.

Amy Z




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 20:51:44 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 20:51:44 -0000
Subject: Pansy - Strong women
In-Reply-To: <99dnu4+9ttq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99dol0+br3h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14970

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

> Suzanne wrote:
> 
> >He is physically attractive, appears to have had no trouble finding 
> a pretty girlfriend
> 
> Rita describes her as pretty; the narration describes her as 
> resembling a pug! We know Harry's POV is biased, but I still think 
> the latter is more accurate.  Rita calls her pretty to give her more 
> credibility in her Hermione-bashing.
> 

I did not interpret "pug" as necessarily unattractive.

"Pug" brought up for me an image of someone with a small face with 
maybe an interestingly shaped jaw. I know at least three women who 
have that "pug" look and all of them are attractive in an interesting, 
striking kind of way. 

In her demeanor, Pansy strikes me as someone who is used to be the 
center of her circle. Rowling describes her as always being with a 
crowd of Slytherins. She is a very confident but very mean girl who is 
attractive, popular, and well-to-do-- and mercilessly nasty to those 
who are not. I had the impression that Draco pretty much got to have 
his pick of the Slytherin girls, and that Pansy was it.

--Suzanne




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar 22 21:08:01 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:08:01 -0000
Subject: Pansy /Lover boy Draco
In-Reply-To: <99dol0+br3h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99dpjh+sjnv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14971

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., rainy_lilac at y... wrote:
> > 
> > Rita describes her as pretty; the narration describes her as 
> > resembling a pug! We know Harry's POV is biased, but I still 
think   the latter is more accurate.  Rita calls her pretty to give 
her more   credibility in her Hermione-bashing.
> > 
> 
> I did not interpret "pug" as necessarily unattractive. "Pug" 
brought up for me an image of someone with a small face with 
> maybe an interestingly shaped jaw. I know at least three women who 
> have that "pug" look and all of them are attractive in an 
interesting,   striking kind of way. 
> 
> In her demeanor, Pansy strikes me as someone who is used to be the 
> center of her circle. Rowling describes her as always being with a 
> crowd of Slytherins. She is a very confident but very mean girl who 
is  attractive, popular, and well-to-do-- and mercilessly nasty to 
those  who are not. I had the impression that Draco pretty much got 
to have  his pick of the Slytherin girls, and that Pansy was it.
> 
> --Suzanne

<g> Okay, where are we getting the impression that Draco had his pick 
of Slytherin women? I love Draco as much as the next girl, but...I 
fear LoverMan!Draco is a fanon creation. We have no evidence from 
canon that he is even attractive. (And how it kills me to say this.) 
The descriptions we get: Draco is pale, slender, has pointed 
features, cold grey eyes, and silver-blond hair. One can make of that 
what they will (and so we do.) He *does* seem to be popular, and not 
just with Crabbe and Goyle; he is often described as at the center of 
a group of laughing Slytherins.

I have to agree with Amy that the descriptions of Pansy from canon 
don't imply to me a very pretty girl: "hard-faced" and "looking like 
a pug." My neighbor has a pug dog and boy would I be displeased if 
anyone said I looked remotely like it. On the other hand, it's all 
Harry's POV and he *hates* the Slytherins, I'd be willing to give her 
the benefit of the doubt and assume she might be attractive in a hard-
faced sort of way. 

This leads into the whole argument about how there certainly must be 
*some* decent Slytherins despite the fact that Harry describes them 
all as either stupid, ugly, evil, or all three, otherwise it seems 
like they'd just abolish the whole House.

Cassie




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar 22 21:17:44 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:17:44 -0600
Subject: Fw: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The Other Severus
Message-ID: <011701c0b315$8a50a540$8714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 14972

Doreen said:
I just noticed that this was sent to and replied to OT... I think Milz's
comments and my reply are ON topic and belong in HPFGU.

I am confused about the url, since it was accompanied by his comment. HPFGU
or HPAnnouncements?

Here is a question along the same lines. What do we do when we see a letter
that we want to reply to .. and we know it is in the wrong group? How do we
reply to it, so that the person we are addressing sees it ... if one letter
goes to say HPFGU and the reply is supposed to go  to say OT? How do we even
know if the other person is in both groups?
###########################

Last weekend, a print in the ladies room of a hotel caught my
attention. The print was a pen-and-ink drawing of the Arch of
Septimius Severus in Rome. Perhaps Rowling named Snape after this
Severus? Could Snape be (somewhat) based upon the Historical Severus?
If so, the next HP books will be VERY interesting indeed!

http://www.roman-empire.net/decline/sept-severus.html

:-)Milz

#################################
JKR tells us that she has always collected names. She also likes the Latin
words. She very well could have gotten his name from this Severus.

I also noticed the word, "prefect" and the name, "Albinus."   Albinus =
Albus?

The line about Severus being careful about what he desired to accomplish and
careless about what people said about him is "spot on" about Snape too.

Very interesting read. Thanks.
Doreen

###################################








From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar 22 21:17:10 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:17:10 -0000
Subject: Pansy /Lover boy Draco
In-Reply-To: <99dpjh+sjnv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99dq4m+6kdf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14973

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> I fear LoverMan!Draco is a fanon creation. We have no evidence from 
> canon that he is even attractive. (And how it kills me to say 
this.) 
> The descriptions we get: Draco is pale, slender, has pointed 
> features, cold grey eyes, and silver-blond hair. One can make of 
that 
> what they will (and so we do.) 

Ohmigod! I'm going to disagree with cassie! sorta!

Well, Tom Felton is a cute little thing in the trailer, so that gives 
some credence to it. If they wanted him to be ugly, they could've 
given him some pointy, beaklike nose with the help of prosthetics 7 
makeup. But they didn't. So if you want to take the movies as canon, 
he's cute, in that 11 year old way.






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Mar 22 21:20:34 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:20:34 -0000
Subject: Sirius
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103221448390.28801-100000@er6.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <99dqb2+qs3h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14974

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at e...> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Mar 2001 foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 
> > > Amy wrote:
> > > What made people believe that Sirius was
> > > so powerful a wizard? I still don't get it...
> > 
> > Marie-Joseph-Paul-Yves-Roch-Gilbert du Motier better known as the 
> > Marquis de Lafayette, hero of the Revolutionary War, was appointed a 
> > major general in the colonial forces at the age of 19, and was a close 
> > confidante of George Washington. 
> 
> Is that really a fair comparison though?  Certainly, throughout history
> there have been lots of people to have accomplished major military
> exploits by that age, but very few of them, if I'm not mistaken, were
> still in school (minors) at 17/18.  The wizarding world seems to
> coincide with the Muggle world in having a notion of adolescence, a
> period between childhood and adulthood, which greatly delays the
> beginning of adulthood.  If you've only just entered adulthood, it's
> difficult to become a successful general.
>
Washington's army resembled a guerrilla organization a great deal more 
than the modern US army does. 
	 Nor am I sure I agree that Muggle adolescence and Wizarding 
adolescence coincide. JKR has said that the wizards have no "higher 
education" and we see in FBAWTFT and in GoF that they can join the 
Ministry of Magic at 18 or 19. Since they come of age at 17, they are 
considered adults during their last year at Hogwarts. In Percy's case, 
he immediately becomes second to a very powerful wizard, and no one 
thinks it very odd that he is sent to Hogwarts as Crouch's replacement, 
instead of a more experienced member of the Department.
 
Pippin





From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 21:23:41 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:23:41 -0000
Subject: Pansy /Lover boy Draco
In-Reply-To: <99dpjh+sjnv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99dqgt+itim@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14975

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:

> This leads into the whole argument about how there certainly must be 
> *some* decent Slytherins despite the fact that Harry describes them 
> all as either stupid, ugly, evil, or all three, otherwise it seems 
> like they'd just abolish the whole House.
> 

I thought Draco was a pretty boy long before I read fanfiction. Maybe 
it was because of that neatly combed silvery hair. I dunno. He strikes 
me as someone who considers  himself to be attractive at least.

I think there must be some decent Slytherins-- ambitious doesn't HAVE 
to mean ruthless or evil. I hope not in any event. 

What I resist is the idea that evil or nasty people must by default 
also be physically unattractive and/or unpopular. Pointy-faced, 
pug-faced... yeah, yeah. But they seem to be doing quite well in their 
social circle, unlike Crabbe and Goyle who are alwys described as 
stupid and yucko (and unable to get dates for the Yule Ball). All of 
the Malfoys strike me as people who at least are attentive to and 
think highly of how they look (Lucius is very dapper and well groomed; 
Narcissa has her highly suggestive name and is described as quite 
pretty except for the expression on her face).

I could go on, but the main thing is that evil can sometimes be very 
seductive and, on the surface, perhaps beautiful. Things are not 
always what they seem. I think this makes things more interesting.

For what it is worth,

Suzanne






From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Thu Mar 22 11:34:40 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:34:40 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance
Message-ID: <01C0B374.A77959A0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 14976

Very nice post amy.

storm

-----Original Message-----
From:	Amy Z [SMTP:aiz24 at hotmail.com]
Sent:	Thursday, March 22, 2001 4:32 AM
To:	HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject:	[HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance

Stacy said from atop a very nice, top-of-the-line, varnished soapbox:

"No strong female characters in Harry Potter . . . All Hermione's good
at is school . . . Blah blah blah."

Well, articles might say this, but I didn't!  I notice that a few
posts responding to mine point out that there are strong female
characters in HP...giving me the impression that I have disappeared
and been replaced by a Straw Feminist who shouts ridiculous things
like "Hermione is a weakling!  McGonagall doesn't understand
Transfiguration!"  Such a figure would be easy to knock down.

There are *some* strong female characters in Harry Potter.  Hermione
is good at *lots* besides school.  Besides, her being so good at
school is itself against stereotype, especially because we know she
particularly loves Arithmancy, which, whatever it is, is mathematical,
and excels at logic, specifically in contract to the Boy Hero (Snape's
poser in PS/SS, and Harry thinks it again when he comes to the Sphinx
in GoF); both of these are subjects where boys supposedly excel and
girls falter.  Right on, Hermione!  Right on, JKR!

What I am saying is that if you made a list of male and female
characters, you would find that the important characters are very
heavily weighted toward the m side of the list.  I would say that the
six most important characters, going by page time, how well we know
them, and how much we respect/care about them, are (in no particular
order):

Harry
Hermione
Ron
Hagrid
Dumbledore
Sirius

Whether McGonagall would be #7 is arguable.  I'd go with Snape, but it
depends on how much weight you give to page time/importance and how
much to respect/liking.

Ministry officials:  *all* who are named are men (we do encounter
unnamed "ministry witches").

Hogwarts teachers:  the majority are men.  It is *not* 50/50.  Look at
the most important teachers, and the imbalance is worse.

Quidditch players, even on Gryffindor:  the majority are men/boys.  To
JKR's credit, the remark that Slytherin has no girls on its team is a
clear sign that sexism is associated with Pure Evil.  (As it should
be! <g>)

One thing JKR *doesn't* do is make men out to be nicer, better,
smarter, etc. than women.  The men play most of the unflattering
roles, as well as most of the nice ones, and their flaws run the
gamut, from Evil Overlordship to vanity.  JKR's women and girls are
very admirable--at least, as admirable as the men and boys are.  Where
she falls short is in numbers.

Someone did a study some years ago in which they had people read
sections of textbooks and then answer questions about how many of the
examples used were female (e.g. girls' names in word problems, things
like that).  They found that people consistently overestimated the
number of female references.  Make a textbook scrupulously even in its
male and female examples, and readers will perceive it as biased
toward the female.  This is why tokenism works; make one character of
the top six female, and many readers will perceive it as being even.
Make one DADA teacher of 5 female, and many people will perceive that
as even.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
 Feminism:  the radical notion that women are people.
------------------------------------------------------



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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 21:44:25 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:44:25 -0000
Subject: Lover boys Draco,Crabbe and Goyle
In-Reply-To: <99dq4m+6kdf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99drnp+2pf9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14977

Heidi wrote:

>So if you want to take the movies as canon, 
> he's cute, in that 11 year old way.

I emphatically don't.  I'm glad that JKR seems to be getting a lot 
more input than is usually accorded to the original author, but the 
movie will be Chris Columbus's vision, along with those of his 
casting director/set designer/etc., not hers.  To me, canon will 
always be whatever's between the covers of the books and nothing else.

That doesn't stop Tom Felton from being the =perfect= Draco, 
however...!  I didn't actually scream when I saw him in the trailer, 
a la Cassie, but I laughed hysterically and said "Oh my God, THAT'S 
DRACO!!"

Suzanne wrote:

>But they seem to be doing quite well in their 
>social circle, unlike Crabbe and Goyle who are alwys described as 
>stupid and yucko (and unable to get dates for the Yule Ball). 

The latter is just Harry's naivete speaking.  Crabbe and Goyle 
obviously have dates for the Ball--each other.  ;-)

Amy Z




From aprilgc at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 22:22:48 2001
From: aprilgc at hotmail.com (A. Green)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:22:48 -0800
Subject: Dumbledore, Hagrid & Sirius -- no warnings?
Message-ID: <F47eE4D3MBhe3WYIgoF00005236@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14978

Thinking about the whole Sirius thing now.  If Dumbledore thought Sirius was 
secret keeper.  V. finds Potters so secret betrayed. Sirius sees Hagrid 
right after the murders.

If Dumbledore thinks Sirius is the traitor (no matter how much he wants to 
deny it, what else could it be, right?), why doesn't he tell Hagrid, 
"::cough, ahem (e.g.):: You may want to let Sirius get another cycle." or 
"::cough:: Sirius isn't likely to need it any more."  when (in PS/SS Chapter 
1) Hagrid says that he's off to find Sirius and give him back his 
motorcycle?  Even if he wouldn't say, "that traitor doesn't deserve...."

If this has been covered, please point me to the thread.
a.
(who has lost yet another owl to forces unknow)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar 22 22:47:32 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 22:47:32 -0000
Subject: Pansy /Lover boy Draco
In-Reply-To: <99dq4m+6kdf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99dve4+pfaf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14979

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:

> 
> Ohmigod! I'm going to disagree with cassie! sorta!> Well, Tom 
Felton is a cute little thing in the trailer, so that gives 
> some credence to it. If they wanted him to be ugly, they could've 
> given him some pointy, beaklike nose with the help of prosthetics 7 
> makeup. But they didn't. So if you want to take the movies as 
canon,   he's cute, in that 11 year old way.

And I'm going to disagree with Heidi! It's a red-letter day! *takes 
out her Kate Spade gingham handbag and whaps Heidi with it* Like Amy, 
I don't reeeallly take the movies as canon in terms of the way 
everyone looks-- they've obviously messed about a bit with character 
appearances, as per necessity. Ron in the film is shorter than Harry, 
wheras in the books he's clearly much taller. And look how much 
prettier movie-Hermione is than book-Hermione. Hollywood does tend to 
pretty people up.  

But I see your point. If JKR had envisioned Draco as completely 
horrendous, they probably would have cast a horrendous-looking kid. 
But she might simply envision him as fairly ordinary-looking. I 
wasn't really arguing for an ugly Draco (how could I?). To me the 
strongest proof that Draco isn't hideous is that if he was, Harry 
would probably have mentioned it. We see everything from his POV, and 
most of the Slytherins -- Pansy, Crabbe, Goyle, Milicent -- are 
either not described or described as unattractive. If Draco were 
ugly, I can't help thinking Harry'd be all over that. If "pale and 
pointy" is the best he can do, maybe there just isn't all that much 
bad to say about Draco's appearance. I was just arguing against 
the "spectacularly beautiful looks-good-in-leather to-die-for Draco" 
who *is* a fanon creation.

*grins at Heidi* Do I have to give back my Slytherin ring now?

Cassie




From dasienko at email.com  Fri Mar 23 01:17:56 2001
From: dasienko at email.com (dasienko at email.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:17:56 -0000
Subject: Possible Draco Transformation
Message-ID: <99e884+7s5h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14980

Hi! I'm new to this group and  I've been lurking about reading 
postings and thinking a lot about the father son issues. JKR seems to 
be very adept at positioning hints about future happenings. Well,  
what if the Crouch, SR/JR scenario is played out again in the Malfoy 
family? Draco could be betrayed by the Dark Arts and turn against his 
father. This could lead to a battle where son is pitched against the 
father. Draco would die defending Harry( or Dumbledore). Draco's 
death could then set up a chain reaction that would destroy Voldemort 
and the Death Eaters. 
I want to thank all of you for giving me so much to think about. 
Gotta go to re-read the books so I can annotate them with all these 
new ideas.




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 01:38:00 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:38:00 -0000
Subject: gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <c1.c9a1f79.27eaa8a3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99e9do+3pp5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14981

I agree with Susan completely, actually. And I'll add another point: 
six out of the seven Weasley children are male, aren't they?

I especially agree with Susan's point that it takes awhile for some 
girls (especially those that don't go in for the giggly, going-to-the-
bathroom-in-packs stuff) to value famale companionship. It took me a 
long time. I'm 17, and only this year have I found good female 
friends. Before, I had almost exclusively male friends (which got to 
be a problem after awhile for obvious reasons . . .)

Anyway. I agree that there aren't *many* female characters. But the 
ones we have are either already important or will become more 
important and developed as the books continue.

Stacy




From lsease at supernet.com  Fri Mar 23 01:46:05 2001
From: lsease at supernet.com (lsease at supernet.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:46:05 -0000
Subject: Female Death Eaters 
Message-ID: <99e9st+o5m3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14982

    There are strong female characters at Hogwarts, but equality does 
 not seem to carry over to Voldemort's side. Where are all the strong 
evil women?  When Harry is with the Death Eaters near the end of GOF, 
all the Death Eaters he sees are men. Voldemort mentions the 
Lestranges are in Azkaban, and someone has told Harry earlier that
the 
Lestranges are a married couple, but Mrs.L seems to be the only woman 
in Voldemort's inner circle. Draco's mother appears to support the 
dark arts, she is married to Lucius, and she must realize there are  
valuable Dark Arts items hidden under their drawing-room floor. But 
she evidently does not have the dark mark. Maybe Mrs. Malfoy does not 
support the Dark Arts, but some of the women must. I am not pro-Voldy 
but I just find this odd. Is Voldy sexist as well as generally evil?  
   




From Zarleycat at aol.com  Fri Mar 23 01:54:42 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:54:42 -0000
Subject: Sirius; Fudge eats words
In-Reply-To: <99doin+qdqg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ead2+o3m6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14983

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Monika wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Fudge says something like that, too:
> > "I must say, You-Know-Who alone and friendless is one thing...
> > but give him back his most devoted servant, and I shudder to
> > think how quickly he'll raise again..."
> 
> When does he say this?  It's now, isn't it?  So Fudge has had 13 
> years to think of Sirius as the person who was so devoted to 
> Voldemort that he'd turn his best friend & his family over to be 
> murdered.  From Fudge's POV (and everyone else's), Sirius exposed 
> himself as a DE the night the Potters died, and then found himself 
in a very bad way because his Master fell.  The whole story as told 
and retold in the past 13 years implies that Sirius was very high up 
in  the DEs.  But that's all an explanation after the fact, an 
attempt to  explain Sirius's actions that night and then vs. 
Pettigrew; no one  thought of Sirius as V's "right-hand-man" or 
anything like it before  then, because they thought he was on the 
right side.  At least, such  stars of the anti-V effort as 
Dumbledore, James, and Lily did, and  presumably Fudge did too.
> 
> BTW, it's very interesting to be reminded that Fudge said that, in 
> light of his actions in GoF.  When informed that You-Know-Who did 
> indeed get back his most devoted servant (well, one of them), he 
> nevertheless flatly refuses to believe that he's risen again.
> 
> Amy Z


OH NO!!  I just had some sort of weird power surge.  (High winds, 
flickering lights...)

If this response has alread shown up, forgive me for sending the same 
message twice!!!

My comment was that indeed it is interesting that Fudge would be 
eager to see Sirius as V's right-hand man without much persuading,  
but would not want to see some obvious Voldemort activity in GoF.  It 
makes me think of a comment someone on this list made a while ago 
regarding Sirius' imprisonment w/o trial.  One of the reasons given 
as to why this happened was that someone in power in the MOM, who is 
really in league with Voldemort, wanted to ensure that Sirius was 
removed from the playing field.  In other words, get him out of the 
game by sending him to prison. 

I don't believe that Fudge was the Minsiter of Magic at the time of 
the Potters' deaths, but perhaps he was instrumental in locking 
Sirius up. There's always been something about Fudge that has rubbed 
me the wrong way...

Marianne




From litalex at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 02:03:31 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:03:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Female Death Eaters 
In-Reply-To: <99e9st+o5m3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010323020331.2585.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14984

Hello,

--- lsease at supernet.com wrote:
> but I just find this odd. Is Voldy sexist as well as
> generally evil?  

Well, seeing that he came from at least fifty years
ago, and raised with Muggle attitudes, perhaps he is
indeed sexist.

little Alex

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Mar 23 02:28:58 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 02:28:58 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <3ABA129E.D48637D1@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99ecda+8d37@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14985

> 
> As I see it, Susan, Amy & Joy are all largely basing their 
arguments on
> the numbers.  BTW, I agree with Amy's belief that perceptions can be
> skewed (the notion that people perceive the numbers to be skewed to
> females if it's actually equal).

I agree with Amy that people "see" two strong female characters and 
that equals ten. We are so used to (this is a generalization of 
course) women blending into the woodwork, being quiet, or not taking 
up space, that when women are as vocal as men, they are perceived as 
loud. A man and a woman can speak in the same tone and be direct in 
their comments. The man will elicit no particular reaction; people 
will notice (and usually not positively) the woman. Argumentative 
women will be characterized as a (word rhymes with snitch); 
argumentative men will be seen as engaging in fun debate. 

But actually the numbers aren't bad..this is not a question 
of "gender balance"...a euphemism. "Numbers" are a problem only
when there are ten fascinating complex male characters to two 
fascinating complex female characters (and I think there's really 
only one fascinating complex character).
And the women are not seen as particularly whole...they embody one 
set of stereotypical female virtues (they are EITHER mother OR wise 
woman OR young sexually attractive). Where are the sexy older women?
I haven't noticed any of the men (who are interested in women) 
drooling over the adult women. (the way women who are interested in 
men are interested in Lupin, Black, Sirius). I don't think that's the 
problem of people on the list -- I think it's an issue with the books.

Susan 






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar 23 02:56:05 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 02:56:05 -0000
Subject: Fw: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The Other Severus
In-Reply-To: <011701c0b315$8a50a540$8714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99ee05+id41@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14986

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Doreen said:

> Last weekend, a print in the ladies room of a hotel caught my
> attention. The print was a pen-and-ink drawing of the Arch of
> Septimius Severus in Rome. Perhaps Rowling named Snape after this
> Severus? Could Snape be (somewhat) based upon the Historical 
Severus?
> If so, the next HP books will be VERY interesting indeed!
> 
> http://www.roman-empire.net/decline/sept-severus.html
> 

[Septimus] Severus was passionately addicted to the vain studies of 
magic and divination, deeply versed in the interpretation of dreams 
and omens, and perfectly acquainted with the science of judicial 
astronomy...........

               - Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Chap. 6




From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Mar 23 03:04:25 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 03:04:25 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <3ABA129E.D48637D1@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99eefp+jlt7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14987

> be largely 50/50 gender-wise, but the corporate transactional bar is
> 
> As I see it, Susan, Amy & Joy are all largely basing their 
arguments on
> the numbers.  BTW, I agree with Amy's belief that perceptions can be
> skewed (the notion that people perceive the numbers to be skewed to
> females if it's actually equal).
> 

Numbers? Well, there are plenty of girls and women. "I" am not 
talking about "gender balance". I am talking about who grips our 
imagination in these books. There are ten complex fascinating men for 
every two complex fascinating woman in the book (not exact numbers of 
course). (For the sake of argument, Hermione, Minerva, Molly, Lily...
Ron, Harry, Dumbledore, Snape, Lupin, Black, Voldemort, Crouch, Moody,
James, Hagrid, Krum, Malfoy, Malfoy, Arthur (The women tend, in 
general, to embody one set of virtues -- a mother;
an old wise woman (or the old maid school teacher as the less 
flattering stereotype), or the young sexually attractive women. 
(Remember, Hermione is the exception in these books). Real women are 
like real men -- they have different virtues and flaws, and play 
different roles (high powered lawyer, author, and mother, for 
example).
For example where are the adult women who could be seen as erotic 
beings? I can IMAGINE Molly in those roles or Minerva..but I have a 
highly developed imagination about women.
On this list, there are lots of romantic/sexual fantasies about 
Sirius, Lupin, and even Snape, but I haven't seen anyone (male OR 
female) thinking about the women in those terms. (Women, not girls).
I don't read fan fiction (have read two actually), but I would guess
that it reflects the characters that people find most powerful and 
who grip the imagination..? Which women are popular in fan fiction?
Any fan fiction that portrays Minvera as an exciting lover or great 
warrior? (I could see fan fiction perhaps about Hagrid and Madame 
Maxine).

Thanks for taking my mind off my root canal. more in a moment.

Susan










> 
> I agree that Hermione is the exception rather than the rule.
> 
> I do give McGonagall more credit than Susan does.  I think she's 
alot
> more than just an administrative type.  I've written reams about 
Minerva
> before, and I'm certain that Neil has captured all of my brilliant
> analysis in the McGonagall FAQ so I'll skip it for now.  <vbg>  
Suffice
> to say: I think McGonagall does qualify as a strong female character
> (not as strong by any means as Hermione but then again, Harry 
interacts
> with Hermione considerably more than he does with McGonagall so ...)
> 
> Most of the women are identified as partners/supporters of men -- I
> agree with this.  But, I think Lily Potter will prove to be a very
> strong female character separate & quite apart from her role as the
> "mother who sacrified her life to save her son."  I think she was
> probably a brilliant driven person who could hold her own in the 
fight
> against Voldemort.  I think we'll learn all of this in one of the 
later
> books.  So ... I add her to the column of strong female characters 
even
> though we have little evidence of this at this point.
> 
> Like Susan, I'm also disturbed a bit by the fact that Rowena 
Ravenclaw &
> Helga Hufflepuff are the founders of the 2 Houses that play such a
> peripheral role in the series.  I think it's a point well-taken.  I
> really do wish JKR would develop both these Houses more fully in the
> later books.
> 
> Ginny Weasley -- there's potential.  But (:::cough:::), we've all 
been
> saying that Ginny has "potential" since before GoF.  She was such a 
bit
> player in the first 4 books (yeah ... yeah... yeah, she 
was "pivotal" to
> the plot in Book 2, but really ... she was just a plot device in my 
mind
> ... definitely a victim with very few lines).  I know JKR said 
we'll see
> more of Ginny, but I think she said that in the past and it didn't 
come
> to pass with GoF so I'm not necessarily holding my breath.  OTOH, 
she is
> a Weasley and will be older in OoP.  So ... maybe.  :--)
> 
> As I recall Susan -- you got mainly praise for this analysis last
> October.  :::shrugs:::  Don't know why you feel the need to brace 
for a
> "deluge" of criticism.  You've definitely made some great points.  
My
> main bone of contention is that you sell McGonagall short.  But, 
that's
> minor really.  <g>
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Mar 23 03:09:09 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 03:09:09 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <3ABA129E.D48637D1@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99eeol+l5ja@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14988


> 
> I do give McGonagall more credit than Susan does.  I think she's 
alot
> more than just an administrative type.  I've written reams about 
Minerva
> before, and I'm certain that Neil has captured all of my brilliant
> analysis in the McGonagall FAQ so I'll skip it for now.  <vbg>  
Suffice
> to say: I think McGonagall does qualify as a strong female character
> (not as strong by any means as Hermione but then again, Harry 
interacts
> with Hermione considerably more than he does with McGonagall so ...)

I personally like McGonagall and think of her as Dumbledore's deputy 
which is quite a task. But I think that my admiration for her is that 
I can imagine the woman she is behind the way she is portrayed in the
books, but I'm not sure it's backed up by much evidence in the books.




> 
> Most of the women are identified as partners/supporters of men -- I
> agree with this.  But, I think Lily Potter will prove to be a very
> strong female character separate & quite apart from her role as the
> "mother who sacrified her life to save her son."  I think she was
> probably a brilliant driven person who could hold her own in the 
fight
> against Voldemort.  I think we'll learn all of this in one of the 
later
> books.  So ... I add her to the column of strong female characters 
even
> though we have little evidence of this at this point.


We can add her for the sake of argument. Sure, any woman who did what 
she did, and was Head Girl at Hogwarts (who is Head Girl when Percy 
is Head Boy?) and is Harry's mother is probably dynamite. But as you 
say, there is little evidence, and little detail to grip our 
imagination, just our conjectures and hopes.


> 
> As I recall Susan -- you got mainly praise for this analysis last
> October.  

Oh, I got a few positive posts, but then they turned mostly negative.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Mar 23 03:16:17 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 03:16:17 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <99dah1+gumj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ef61+2d2t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14989

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> When it comes to strong girls/women, we definitely have Minerva, 
> Molly, Hermione and Angelina 


Angelina? Oh, come now, Neil, my friend, aren't we stretching things 
here? How many lines are devoted to her? (Now that would be 
interesting..someone do a text analysis about how many lines are 
devoted to men and women...)

Rita Skeeter is interesting but not someone who grips the 
imagination..she cannot equate to Lord Voldemort or even to Peter 
Pettigrew, she's more like Peeves, and I haven't listed him on my
"most fascinating men" list....


> 
> I guess we shouldn't conclude that sexism in the canon = sexism in 
> JKR.  I think she has more than a few surprises up her capacious 
> sleeves in relation to social inequalities.  
> 


But I was very careful not to conclude that, Neil....I, like everyone 
else, adore her and fantasize that one day, at work, I'll get a call 
that says "J. K. Rowlings is very interested in the work you do with 
battered women and would like to come visit your program." 
http://comnet.org/dvp (in case anyone is in touch with her).

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Mar 23 03:38:10 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 03:38:10 -0000
Subject: Fw: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The Other Severus
In-Reply-To: <99ee05+id41@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99egf2+2mi4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14990

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > Doreen said:
> 
> > Last weekend, a print in the ladies room of a hotel caught my
> > attention. The print was a pen-and-ink drawing of the Arch of
> > Septimius Severus in Rome. Perhaps Rowling named Snape after this
> > Severus? Could Snape be (somewhat) based upon the Historical 
> Severus?
> > If so, the next HP books will be VERY interesting indeed!
> > 
> > http://www.roman-empire.net/decline/sept-severus.html
> > 
> 
> [Septimus] Severus was passionately addicted to the vain studies of 
> magic and divination, deeply versed in the interpretation of dreams 
> and omens, and perfectly acquainted with the science of judicial 
> astronomy...........
> 
>                - Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 
Chap. 6


And based on this (thanks Caius), I would suggest that it's highly 
likely that JKR (who is obviously extremely well educated, whether 
it's formal or informal education) saw or knew of him (Septimus 
Severus) and it stuck in her conscious or unconscious.

Susan




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar 23 03:57:18 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 03:57:18 -0000
Subject: Sirius; Fudge eats words
In-Reply-To: <99ead2+o3m6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ehiu+2blk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14991

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Zarleycat at a... wrote:
> >(First part of post snipped) 
> 
> OH NO!!  I just had some sort of weird power surge.  (High winds, 
> flickering lights...)
> 
> If this response has alread shown up, forgive me for sending the 
same 
> message twice!!!
> 
> 
> I don't believe that Fudge was the Minsiter of Magic at the time of 
> the Potters' deaths, but perhaps he was instrumental in locking 
> Sirius up. There's always been something about Fudge that has 
rubbed 
> me the wrong way...
> 
> Marianne

It's in PoA, p. 155, UK edition: Scene, the Three Broomsticks
Rosmerta, McGonagall, Flitwick, Fudge, & Hagrid are sitting around 
talking about Sirius.  Fudge says, 'I was Junior Minister in the 
Department of Magical Catastrophes at the time, and I was one of the 
first on the scene after Black murdered all those people.' 

I don't know how much influence a junior minister would have, but I 
think Fudge may have had something to do with hauling Sirius in.  
Remember, the evidence, at face value, was conclusive.

I agree, Marianne, I don't like Fudge either, or even trust him, for 
that matter...

Peace & Plenty,

Parker




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar 23 04:09:03 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 04:09:03 -0000
Subject: Veritaserum (filk)
Message-ID: <99ei8v+lre2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14992

Veritaserum  (GoF, Chaps 27 & 35)

Dedicated to Pippin

(To the tune of Waltzing Matilda)

(The Scene: Potions' Class. SNAPE is in a snit)

HARRY
In Potions Class while mashing up my scarab bugs
Snape quietly tried to instigate me

SNAPE
For I know who has pinched my boomslang and my gillyweed
Give me a chance, you'll get the third degree

HARRY
Down plunged his hand to the inside of his gloomy robes
I thought with his wand he would cast a harsh spell

SNAPE (brandishing a crystal container in HARRY'S face)
You see that this crystal contains a potent potion clear
Three little drops, every secret you'll tell

Veritaserum, Veritaserum, 
You will sing like a stool pigeon for me 

HARRY (to himself)
He'll have heard every word about Dobby and Hermione 
If he gives Veritaserum to me

(Sudden change of scene to the Dark Arts Professors' Office. Present 
are HARRY, SNAPE, DUMBLEDORE and CROUCH, JR)

HARRY
A bit later on, the man we thought was Alastor
Turned out to be Barty Junior in disguise
Then Dumbledore said while turning to Professor Snape

DUMBLEDORE 
Severus, we'll need something from your supplies
..

DUMBLEDORE & SNAPE
Veritaserum, Veritaserum, 
It will uncover this great mystery

CROUCH (to himself)
They'll have heard every word about mom and dad and poor Winky
If they give Veritaserum to me

HARRY
So Crouch Junior told how he broke off from his father's spell
And so to serve Voldy, plunged in the abyss
Now he's less than a ghost, for after he confessed to us
He was taken to encounter the Dementors' cold kiss

ALL
Veritaserum, Veritaserum, 
A potent potion no one can ignore

HARRY
Let this youth play the sleuth, `cause I want to hear the total truth
Let's give  Veritaserum to Dumbledore!

  - CMC





From klaatu at primenet.com  Fri Mar 23 04:21:05 2001
From: klaatu at primenet.com (Sister Mary Lunatic)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:21:05 -0700
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <99ef61+2d2t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEMIDEAA.klaatu@primenet.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14993

..someone do a text analysis about how many lines are 
devoted to men and women...)

It's been done... Go to:

http://www.hpgalleries.com/wordgallery-c.htm

SML

==============================================
Before death takes what has been given to you,
 you must give away everything you can give.
               ---Rumi 
==============================================





From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Fri Mar 23 06:12:47 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:12:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <MABBJPGEHBDBAKHGIBPOMEMIDEAA.klaatu@primenet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103222334400.3594-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14994

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Sister Mary Lunatic wrote:

> > ..someone do a text analysis about how many lines are 
> > devoted to men and women...)
> 
> It's been done... Go to:
> 
> http://www.hpgalleries.com/wordgallery-c.htm

The site counts number of mentions by name of every character.  To
summarize the results with a focus on gender:

In the top ten, we have numbers 1, 2, and 3 respectively: Harry, Ron,
Hermione.  No other female characters.

In the top twenty, there's Hermione (3), Prof. McGonagall (11).

In the top thirty, there's also Molly (25) and Ginny (29).  (That's
4/30, 13%).

In the top fifty, ther's also Aunt Petunia (31), Prof. Trelawney (40),
Rita Skeeter (45), Madam Pomfrey (46), Moaning Myrtle (48), and Madame
Maxine (50).  (9/50, 18%.)  We're now down to under a hundred mentions
(Ron had almost 3,000, to have a point of comparison).

Just in numbers, that's nothing like 'balance' -- and consider *how*
those nine characters are portrayed.  Aunt Petunia and Rita Skeeter are
very unpleasant; Moaning Myrtle is whiny; Ginny's a victim; Prof.
Trelawney is a flake.  (I don't think that's really oversimplifying
much, except perhaps in Ginny's case.)

Only Profs. McGonagall and Trelawney, Madam Pomfrey, and Rita Skeeter
aren't defined, at least partially, by their relation to a man.  
Hermione is Harry's friend, Molly is Arthur's wife and Ron's mother,
Aunt Petunia is Uncle Vernon's wife and Dudley's mother (and Harry's
aunt, of course), Ginny has a crush on Harry and is saved by him, Madame
Maxine becomes a love-interest for Hagrid, and Myrtle was killed by Tom
Riddle.  (Quickly contrasting the top ten, I would say that Ron, Hagrid,
Dumbledore, Snape, Draco, Sirius, Remus, and Fred are all easily defined
without any relation to a woman.)

Hermione is certainly an exception (Viktor, after all, *would* be
defined by his relation to *her*) in some ways, but she does seem (from
Harry's POV, admittedly) to be very dependant on Harry, and to a lesser
extent Ron; we never see her interacting with any of the girls in her
dorm -- and the things she does do on her own are often overlooked, as
when it took Harry a year to notice the Time-Turner thing!  But, OTOH,
she starts and promotes SPEW pretty much without them.  So, Hermione
I'll grant, but reluctantly.

Madam Pomfrey is mentioned frequently, apparently, though I wouldn't
have guessed that -- presumably because she's always there to 'clean
up', as it were, after others do things (a very typical female reactive
role).

That pretty much leaves my absolute favorite, Prof. McGonagall.  And
speaking of her, Susan wrote:

> For example where are the adult women who could be seen as erotic
> beings? I can IMAGINE Molly in those roles or Minerva..but I have a
> highly developed imagination about women.
> On this list, there are lots of romantic/sexual fantasies about
> Sirius, Lupin, and even Snape, but I haven't seen anyone (male OR
> female) thinking about the women in those terms. (Women, not girls).
> I don't read fan fiction (have read two actually), but I would guess
> that it reflects the characters that people find most powerful and
> who grip the imagination..? Which women are popular in fan fiction?
> Any fan fiction that portrays Minvera as an exciting lover or great
> warrior? (I could see fan fiction perhaps about Hagrid and Madame
> Maxine).

Now, I *adore* Minerva.  (I've mentioned this repeatedly on other lists,
if not here).  She's far and away my favorite character; it's mostly
'cause I find her incredibly sexy.  She's definitely the one character
I'd want to meet... And so immediately canon and fanon collide, since
I'd be hard-pressed to defend that solely from the books (though I think
that's true in some sense of any character in the Potterverse).  But I
think I've had a crush on her since the very first ch. of PS/SS...  I
find her absolutely fascinating.  Her name's Minerva, after all. :)

In terms of fic, other than my own (mostly unposted) Minerva/Lily, I've
only seen three slash fics with her (I couldn't say about het or gen; I
don't read it), a Minerva/Molly, a(n exploitative, probably
male-authored, wholly unrecommended) M/Hermione, and another M/Hermione
(crush fic, no sex, quite sweet and minus the ickiness of the other,
part of a He/Cho anyway).  And in terms of the adults, that's all I can
think of at all.  It tends to be the girls (Hermione, Ginny, Cho, Fleur,
Alicia, Katie, Angelina, Parvati, Padma, and Lily/Narcissa (that last,
mine *g*)) that inspire fic.  For whatever reason, the adult women
aren't appealing.  The vast majority of fics are He/f -- usually He/G or
He/C.  (But there's not exactly a whole lot of HP femmeslash out there.)  
Perhaps either because of the age of the writers or Harry's own age, the
adult females are generally regarded as erotically uninteresting -- and
this by writers who often do write about the adult males, though some
don't (either they only write about the boys, or they only write f/f).  
FWIW.

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 07:07:32 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:07:32 -0000
Subject: Order of the Phoenix
In-Reply-To: <03e901c0b2a5$2a823c20$87481c3f@rena>
Message-ID: <99esnk+lcul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14995

There are a lot of post about female charactors but one has not been 
mentioned recently. [forgive me if I missed a post] I feel a strong 
part will be played by Arabella Figg in the next book. If she proves 
to be the same Figg that lives near the Dursley's we may find she is 
a big part of Harry's protection. She may be the next DADA teacher. 

No-one noticed Pettigrew on the maurader's map until the story called 
for it. He was at hogwarts for over two years. It is possible that 
crookshanks is Mrs. Figg. She picked Hermione out in the store. Maybe 
she could sense that scabbers was not a real rat. 

Another thought: I would not want to be on Dobby's bad side. He 
dismissed Malfoy without effort. Threw him down the stairs by lifting 
one finger. "You will not touch Harry Potter" book 2. 

Bugg 


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rena" <fmu30c at y...> wrote:
> > If there is a limited number of members in the Order of the 
Phoenix,
> whose names do you think would be on the list of members? Let's 
guess
> that the "club" started back in the dark days of Voldemort's rampage
> and there are ten people on it.
> >
> > Which ten people would you guess and why?
> >
> > Doreen
> 
> Here I go:
> 1. Dumbledoore -- he isn't afraid of Voldemort and knows that his
> former student Riddle turned into the dark lord.
> 2. James Potter -- he's stong enough to fight V and not afraid to do
> it.
> 3. Lily Potter -- to help her husband and stand up to V. and not
> afraid to do it.
> 4. Sirius Black -- for the same reason JP is in
> 5. Longbottom (Neville's father) -- detests death eaters and has
> special powers that allow him to find them.
> 6. Alabaster Moody -- has his eye to see the truth, thinks highly of
> Dumbledoore and isn't afraid to fight V.
> 7. Longbottom (Neville's mother) -- fights alongside her husband 
with
> special powers of her own.
> 8. Barty Crouch Sr. -- supports Dumbledoor and others to fight 
against
> V.
> 9. A wizard we haven't met yet
> 10. A witch we haven't met yet
> 
> 5 of the above people are dead or incapacitated to participate once
> again. These will be replaced by:
> 
> 1. Arthur Weasley -- he supports Dumbledoore and believes that V 
needs
> to be fought asap
> 2. Severus Snape -- he really cannot go back to the Death Eaters, 
but
> he supports Dumbledoore and now knows Sirius is an animagus. I 
believe
> that both Sirius and Severus can overcome their hatred for each 
other
> and fight side-by-side.
> 3. Minerva McGonnagal -- also supports Dumbledoore and is a strong
> witch and animagus.
> 4. Remus Lupin -- his disability, so to speak, can be used to the
> advantage of the group and fight V more effectively.
> 5. Amos Diggory -- V killed his son and he wants revenge. He is
> willing to give his life to fight V.
> 
> Rena
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 22:34:37 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:34:37 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy
References: <F189LDiKBsuZ2K4xDh900006c23@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c0b36c$d6472300$26481c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 14996

Sofie wrote:

> The most distinct impression I get from Percy is of someone who is
very
> strict about rules. He's not really hard to fool, as we see in GoF,
where he
> simply executes what he believes to be his superior's instructions.
He seems
> to me the kind of person who obeys the rules because they are the
rules, not
> because he agrees with them. He doesn't seem to be very critical or
> questioning about authority.
>
> Of course Percy wouldn't knowingly and willingly hurt *anyone*,
least of all
> his own family, but he also wouldn't disobey his superiors unless
they were
> so blatantly 'evil' [or so much in denial about Voldie's return] it
would
> endanger people.
>
> I do agree with Ron's remark that Percy is not the kind of person to
use his
> influence/authority to get someone out from under what he would
seeas their
> 'just desserts'. [Apologies if that sentence is really screwed
> up/misspelled; I seem to have lost all ability to speak/write proper
English
> today.]
>
> I'm not saying Percy is 'evil', or even just 'bad'. I'm just saying
that he
> is [or at least strikes me as] a 'wir haben es nicht gewusst' type
of
> person. [And I don't speak German, so that spelling is probably
waaaay off
> as well.]

Your German is fine *g* -- I agree with you that Percy is strict and
follows the rules even if he might not agree with them, but you also
have to take into account that he is trying to set himself apart from
his two older brothers, one who'd been a headboy, the other successful
at Quidditch.
And he is doing what his mother wants at least one of her boys to do.
Work for the ministry. So here he is, in his new job, a stickler for
rules and his boss goes all weird on him. Two things he can do: 1.
quit his job and find another or 2. make the best of the situation.
Percy chose the 2nd option.
I think Percy is just acting like any 18 year old in his first job,
struggling with his "follow the rules" personality and trying to proof
that he can do it.
In the end he will stick with his family, helping them in their
attempt to fight V.

Rena



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar 23 13:50:53 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:50:53 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Order of the Phoenix
References: <99esnk+lcul@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABB54BD.56984291@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 14997

Bugg wrote:

> No-one noticed Pettigrew on the maurader's map until the story called
> for it. He was at hogwarts for over two years. It is possible that
> crookshanks is Mrs. Figg. She picked Hermione out in the store. Maybe
> she could sense that scabbers was not a real rat.

But Crookshanks is a male cat. It's, um, hard to hide maleness in cats.
I don't think genders change with the animagus transformation, and I
don't think Arabella Figg is really a man.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Mar 23 09:07:29 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:07:29 EST5EDT
Subject: Dumbledore-Father Figure thing...
Message-ID: <29D872445B@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 14998

Strangely enough I just did a paper on Aslan (The Lion, The Witch 
and The Wardrobe) and Dumbledore as father figures for my class 
at Ohio State.  I wish I had known this was going to be discussed 
because I like some of the thoughts I'm reading.  :-)




Rachel Bray

"Excuse me, I don't like people just because they're 
handsome!" said Hermione indignantly.
Ron gave a loud false cough, which sounded oddly 
like "Lockhart!"




From minerva at femgeeks.net  Fri Mar 23 14:52:24 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 15:52:24 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy
Message-ID: <F6M6XQQez1enAqpfkNs00007cbf@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 14999

<Indigo>
<<I believe it's a moot point now, given that he's seen what result
putting career over family first and then trying to reverse can come
to.>>

But it's not career-over-family I'm talking about. It's rather 'spare the 
rod, spoil the child'. The Crouch story reminded me of something we learned 
in Latin all those ages ago.

It was a myth/legend about a Roman general leading an attack on a barbarian 
city [something like that]. As they were camped outside the city, he had 
expressly forbidden his men to go out and taunt the barbarians. One of his 
officers disobeyed him, and was executed. The officer was the general's son.

I'm not saying there's anything *wrong* with not wanting to bend the rules 
for your family or friends. [I always thought the general did the right 
thing.] But somehow I get the feeling Percy might not be too inclined to 
look very very hard for evidence that, say, the twins, would be innocent.

If the truth about Tom Riddle's diary hadn't been exposed, would Percy have 
tried to get Ginny a lighter punishment?

<Rena>
<<Your German is fine *g*>>

Thank you. My languages -- Dutch and English being the exceptions -- are not 
very good. And German is one of my country's languages. I'm ashamed. But 
anyway.

<<you also have to take into account that he is trying to set himself apart 
from his two older brothers, one who'd been a headboy, the other successful 
at Quidditch. And he is doing what his mother wants at least one of her boys 
to do. Work for the ministry.>>

Good point. I'd not really thought of it that way, but Percy's adherance to 
the rules et al may be his way of being 'different' in the large Weasley 
family. Charlie is the adventurer [works with dragons], Bill is a successful 
businessman [spellbreaker], Percy is the bookish one, the one that's 
following in his father's footsteps, the twins are the twins -- and the 
mishievous ones, and Ginny is the girl.

Makes one wonder how Ron is going to set himself apart, other than by being 
'Harry Potter's best friend'.

<<So here he is, in his new job, a stickler for rules and his boss goes all 
weird on him. Two things he can do: 1. quit his job and find another or 2. 
make the best of the situation.>>

But isn't there another option? Like, say, talk to his boss' superiors? Or, 
if he doesn't want to do that, out of hero-worship [or whatever it is Percy 
feels for Mr Crouch -- and I'm not saying *anything* <g>]n talk to his 
father. Arthur Weasley knows Crouch Sr, and supposedly would know wether 
thesde letters come from him, and if they actually do make sense, or 
whatnot.

<<I think Percy is just acting like any 18 year old in his first job,
struggling with his "follow the rules" personality and trying to proof
that he can do it.>>

That's actually a very good point, and I agree. But that doesn't change the 
fact that Percy scares the hell out of me. And I cannot figure out why. I 
used to *like* him. Then I read GoF and it all went to hell. Go figure.

Sofie

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
- I don't want that kind of power.
- You're just afraid of it.
(Draco and Harry; contextless snippetty conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl

_________________________________________________________________________
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From minerva at femgeeks.net  Fri Mar 23 15:00:23 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:00:23 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lover boys Draco,Crabbe and Goyle
Message-ID: <F252WwY0VnkB4ltFlmm00007b80@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15000

Amy Z:
<<That doesn't stop Tom Felton from being the =perfect= Draco,
however...!>>

Absolutely. I doubted for a long time if I should go see the movie or not, 
because a number of people did not mesh at. all. with my mental image of 
them.

Most notably, Hermione is too pretty, and Macgonnagal [sp? sorry, braindead] 
looks far older than I'd pictured her. I know she's supposed to be 70, but 
Dumbeldore is supposed to be 150, and he looks *older* than her! Ron didn't 
seem to have any freckles. I only saw pictures, and not the actual trailer, 
but I will take the word of whoever said he's shorter than Harry and go 
'Grr.'

However, Harry and Draco are exactly like they are in my head. Most of the 
other characters are not too gratingly different from in my head. And 
basically, I would suffer a lot to be able to see Rick Mayall as Peeves. 
"Oooh, ickle firsties. What fun." The thought alone is making my stomach 
flutter.

Sofie,
who is weird like that.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
- I don't want that kind of power.
- You're just afraid of it.
(Draco and Harry; contextless snippetty conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar 23 15:12:23 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:12:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fw: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The Other Severus wrong credit
References: <99egf2+2mi4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e201c0b3ab$accd7760$5e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15001

I have seen this quote accredited at least twice to me. Actually, it belongs
to
:-)Milz  absinthe at m...

I was the one who commented that JKR collects names and that it was
interesting that Albius and prefect were also listed in that article.
Doreen
###############################

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> > Doreen said: (NOT me but :-) Milz)
>
> > Last weekend, a print in the ladies room of a hotel caught my
> > attention. The print was a pen-and-ink drawing of the Arch of
> > Septimius Severus in Rome. Perhaps Rowling named Snape after this
> > Severus? Could Snape be (somewhat) based upon the Historical
> Severus?
> > If so, the next HP books will be VERY interesting indeed!
> >
> > http://www.roman-empire.net/decline/sept-severus.html
> >
>
> [Septimus] Severus was passionately addicted to the vain studies of
> magic and divination, deeply versed in the interpretation of dreams
> and omens, and perfectly acquainted with the science of judicial
> astronomy...........
>
>                - Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire,
Chap. 6

And based on this (thanks Caius), I would suggest that it's highly
likely that JKR (who is obviously extremely well educated, whether
it's formal or informal education) saw or knew of him (Septimus
Severus) and it stuck in her conscious or unconscious.

Susan







From rina at love-productions.com  Fri Mar 23 15:12:43 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:12:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
Message-ID: <00f101c0b3ab$b87db700$65878cac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15002

Jen wrote:

<<(Quickly contrasting the top ten, I would say that Ron, Hagrid,
Dumbledore, Snape, Draco, Sirius, Remus, and Fred are all easily defined
without any relation to a woman.)>>

Just playing a quick devil's advocate. <g> Ron is defined by his relationship to a man, as is Fred and Draco. Sirius and Remus also can be, among others. Ron is Harry's friend, Fred is Ron's brother and George's twin, Draco is Harry's enemy. Remus can be defined as a teacher at Hogwarts, or as James' old friend. Sirius is defined as Harry's godfather or James' best friend. So yes, most of the women are defined by their relationships to men, but so are men. When I'm describing the characters to people who don't know, these are the relationships I use.

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 15:15:03 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 15:15:03 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <000201c0b36c$d6472300$26481c3f@rena>
Message-ID: <99fp9n+eco9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15004

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rena" <fmu30c at y...> wrote:
> Sofie wrote:
> 
> > The most distinct impression I get from Percy is of someone who is
> very
> > strict about rules. He's not really hard to fool, as we see in 
GoF,
> where he
> > simply executes what he believes to be his superior's 
instructions.
> He seems
> > to me the kind of person who obeys the rules because they are the
> rules, not
> > because he agrees with them. He doesn't seem to be very critical 
or
> > questioning about authority.
> >
> > Of course Percy wouldn't knowingly and willingly hurt *anyone*,
> least of all
> > his own family, but he also wouldn't disobey his superiors unless
> they were
> > so blatantly 'evil' [or so much in denial about Voldie's return] 
it
> would
> > endanger people.
> >
> > I do agree with Ron's remark that Percy is not the kind of person 
to
> use his
> > influence/authority to get someone out from under what he would
> seeas their
> > 'just desserts'. [Apologies if that sentence is really screwed
> > up/misspelled; I seem to have lost all ability to speak/write 
proper
> English
> > today.]
> >
> > I'm not saying Percy is 'evil', or even just 'bad'. I'm just 
saying
> that he
> > is [or at least strikes me as] a 'wir haben es nicht gewusst' type
> of
> > person. [And I don't speak German, so that spelling is probably
> waaaay off
> > as well.]
> 
> Your German is fine *g* -- I agree with you that Percy is strict and
> follows the rules even if he might not agree with them, but you also
> have to take into account that he is trying to set himself apart 
from
> his two older brothers, one who'd been a headboy, the other 
successful
> at Quidditch.
> And he is doing what his mother wants at least one of her boys to 
do.
> Work for the ministry. So here he is, in his new job, a stickler for
> rules and his boss goes all weird on him. Two things he can do: 1.
> quit his job and find another or 2. make the best of the situation.
> Percy chose the 2nd option.
> I think Percy is just acting like any 18 year old in his first job,
> struggling with his "follow the rules" personality and trying to 
proof
> that he can do it.
> In the end he will stick with his family, helping them in their
> attempt to fight V.
> 
> Rena


I don't believe that Percy would ever knowly do anything to harm his 
family or support Dark Forces. But I think his anxiety about the rules 
and his desire to do well with the Ministry is his blind spot. He may 
unwittingly become a pawn for the Dark Side.

If and when this happens, I think he would be rightly horrified, learn 
some humility and ahrd lessons, and then rush to do the right thing 
for his family. I thuink though that he is going to learn sooner or 
latter that those who are in positions of authority are not 
necessarily right or good.


--Suzanne




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar 23 15:27:51 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:27:51 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in particular
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103222334400.3594-100000@er7.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <00ec01c0b3ad$d90e96e0$5e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15005

Jen said:
Madam Pomfrey is mentioned frequently, apparently, though I wouldn't
have guessed that -- presumably because she's always there to 'clean
up', as it were, after others do things (a very typical female reactive
role).

********************************
I stongly disagree with this interpretation of Madam Pomfrey's role. She is
a nurse and as such, has a very important part in the health & welfare of
the students and staff. She does a bit more than merely "clean up."
Doreen
********************************






From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar 23 15:37:08 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:37:08 -0600
Subject: ADMIN questions
References: <011701c0b315$8a50a540$8714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3ABB6DA4.5EE50903@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15006

Hi --

Doreen wrote:

> What do we do when we see a letter that we want to reply to .. and we
> know it is in the wrong group? How do we reply to it, so that the
> person we are addressing sees it ... if one letter goes to say HPFGU
> and the reply is supposed to go  to say OT? How do we even know if the
> other person is in both groups?

Hypothetical scenario: There's a message on HP4GU main group that
clearly belongs on OT-Chatter (or the original post was fine for HP4GU
but your response belongs in OT-Chatter).  If you really want to be sure
that the person you're replying to sees your reply, you can do 2
things.  Check the "Members" section of the OT-Chatter group and see if
that person is a member of that group.  If that person is not a member
of OT-Chatter, you might send them an off-list private message telling
them that your reply is over on OT-Chatter.

It's a few steps more, but it saves the rest of us from reading an OT
reply on the main group.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Fri Mar 23 16:06:42 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (muggle-reader at angelfire.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:06:42 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <F189LDiKBsuZ2K4xDh900006c23@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <99fsai+m5d4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15007

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie 'Melle' Werkers" <minerva at f...> 
wrote:
 
> Oh, undoubtably.  If it came down to the simple, straightforward 
choice 
> between his career and his family, he would choose his family. 
>

I'm not so sure of that. In GoF, Percy says that Arthur's troubles in 
the Ministry was due to his handling of the Death Mark saga after the 
World Cup event and not due to the bias reporting of the Daily 
Prophet. Percy seems to go for what HE believes is correct. 
Unfortunately that opinion is influenced by non-family members, such 
as Mr. Crouch and the Daily Prophet. It will be interesting how Percy 
processes the facts around Voldemort's return. Will he believe 
Cornelius Fudge, the Minister of Magic and his boss, and those in the 
Ministry who wish to cover-up Voldemort's return or will he believe 
Dumbledore (whom he characterized as "quite mad" in SS), his father a 
low-ranking Ministry official, and Harry? If Percy continues on the 
same path that of his prior history (not believing Ron's Sirius Black 
attack in PoA, ignoring Ginny's mental distress in CoS, and wholly 
blaming Arthur in GoF), I would say The Burrow will be a "House 
Divided".

> The most distinct impression I get from Percy is of someone who is 
very 
> strict about rules. He's not really hard to fool, as we see in GoF, 
where he 
> simply executes what he believes to be his superior's instructions. 
He seems 
> to me the kind of person who obeys the rules because they are the 
rules, not 
> because he agrees with them. He doesn't seem to be very critical or 
> questioning about authority.
> 

This is Percy's best quality and his worst. Blindly following rules 
without questioning the validity of them or the circumstances in which 
they are challenged makes him a very good pawn for the Dark Side 
and/or those who wish to conceal the return of Voldemort. Percy was 
utilized quite efficiently by Voldemort in GoF, a moderately 
proficient politician, like Fudge, would be able to utilized Percy as 
well.

> Of course Percy wouldn't knowingly and willingly hurt *anyone*, 
least of all 
> his own family, but he also wouldn't disobey his superiors unless 
they were 
> so blatantly 'evil' [or so much in denial about Voldie's return] it 
would 
> endanger people.
>

Again, I question that too. If Percy was convinced that general 
knowledge of Voldemort's return would throw the world into a panic and 
that the Ministry can sucessfully rid the world of Voldemort without 
the general population's knowledge, he might just go along with the 
conspirators. In CoS, Percy chastised Ron and Harry for snooping about 
because people "were already upset" and didn't need to be upset 
further if Harry or Ron were hurt or caught.

> I do agree with Ron's remark that Percy is not the kind of person to 
use his 
> influence/authority to get someone out from under what he would 
seeas their 
> 'just desserts'. [Apologies if that sentence is really screwed 
> up/misspelled; I seem to have lost all ability to speak/write proper 
English 
> today.]
>

Percy has abused his power when he was Prefect. Again, in CoS or PoA, 
Percy took some points away from Gryffindor after Ron insulted him. 
Percy was at odds with Ron and punished him by subtracting points from 
Gyrffindor.
 
> I'm not saying Percy is 'evil', or even just 'bad'. 

No he isn't evil or bad in the classic sense. However, his faults can 
make him a potential danger to Harry, the Weasleys, Sirius Black (who 
is still a fugitive) and Dumbledore. That makes him an interesting 
character and one of the ones to watch in the up-coming books.

Demelza




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar 23 16:13:06 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:13:06 -0000
Subject: You're Bad For Me
Message-ID: <99fsmi+ude3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15008

You're Bad For Me 

(To the tune of It's Bad for Me, from Cole Porter's musical, Nymph 
Errant)

Dedicated to Angela Boyko

(The Scene: Late night at a favorite Dark Wizard watering hole.  
Enter VOLDEMORT and WORMTAIL, both having had a few drinks too many)

WORMTAIL
You're bad for me
So bad for me
I betrayed every friend to serve you, Voldy
You got me to cut off my hand from me
You're so bad for me

VOLDEMORT
I'm so good for you, so cruel to you
I helped bring about a renewal for you 
I got you to flee the Weasleys' petting zoo
I'm so good for you

WORMTAIL
I'm good for you 
You were more dead than alive
Dwelling `mongst the roaches and snakes
I found you and bought you back home 
Within a rat tail's coupla' shakes

VOLDEMORT
You're so bad for me, it's bad for me
Harry could've killed you, yet he showed mercy

BOTH
It's really regretted I'm/you're so deeply indebted 
To a kid who's no good for me
 
VOLDY
Years ago, we both pooled our forces
To make sure that James was undone

WORMTAIL
But since, we've nothing but trouble
>From his miserable runty son 

BOTH
Are you good for me?
Or bad for me?
The answer should be patent yet it's hard to see
It's my chief obsession
To ponder the question 
Of just how bad can Voldy/Peter be

     - CMC

NOTE:This is being reposted, since I accidentally included a couple 
of lines from the original in the first post. 





From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Fri Mar 23 16:22:45 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (muggle-reader at angelfire.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:22:45 -0000
Subject: Female Death Eaters
In-Reply-To: <99e9st+o5m3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ft8l+hgaf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15009

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., lsease at s... wrote:
>     There are strong female characters at Hogwarts, but equality 
does 
>  not seem to carry over to Voldemort's side. Where are all the 
strong 
> evil women?  When Harry is with the Death Eaters near the end of 
GOF, 
> all the Death Eaters he sees are men. Voldemort mentions the 
> Lestranges are in Azkaban, and someone has told Harry earlier that
> the 
> Lestranges are a married couple, but Mrs.L seems to be the only 
woman 
> in Voldemort's inner circle. Draco's mother appears to support the 
> dark arts, she is married to Lucius, and she must realize there are 
 
> valuable Dark Arts items hidden under their drawing-room floor. But 
> she evidently does not have the dark mark. Maybe Mrs. Malfoy does 
not 
> support the Dark Arts, but some of the women must. I am not 
pro-Voldy 
> but I just find this odd. Is Voldy sexist as well as generally evil?

We don't know how many Death Eaters there were during Voldemort's 
initial rise to power and we don't know the sex of all of those who 
appeared in the circle in GoF. Voldemort spoke to some of them and 
others he did not. We really don't know how the Death Eaters are 
organized. Are the Death Eaters only those branded with the Dark Mark? 
Or are the branded Death Eaters the upper echelon of the Dark Side and 
lower level Death Eaters are unbranded? 

Demelza




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Fri Mar 23 17:13:05 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:13:05 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius; Fudge eats words
In-Reply-To: <99doin+qdqg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKCEKDCBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 15010

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amy Z [mailto:aiz24 at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 9:51 PM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius; Fudge eats words

Amy wrote:

> When does he say this?  It's now, isn't it?

Yes, it's now, he said it during the conversation Harry overheard
in the Three Broomsticks.

>no one
> thought of Sirius as V's "right-hand-man" or anything like it before
> then, because they thought he was on the right side.  At least, such
> stars of the anti-V effort as Dumbledore, James, and Lily did, and
> presumably Fudge did too.

Well, Dumbledore seemed to have had at least some suspicions
about Sirius because he tried to dissuade James and Lily from
using Sirius as a Secret-Keeper and offered to be their Secret-Keeper
himself. He knew that someone had been passing information to
Voldy for about a year, and he certainly didn't suspect Peter.
Apparently nobody ever suspected Peter.

> BTW, it's very interesting to be reminded that Fudge said that, in
> light of his actions in GoF.  When informed that You-Know-Who did
> indeed get back his most devoted servant (well, one of them), he
> nevertheless flatly refuses to believe that he's risen again.

If he admits that Voldy is back, he will have to do something about
it. For some reason, he doesn't want to do anything about it. I still
cannot believe that he is really evil, rather someone who isn't a
man of action and tries to rule the (wizarding) world from behind
the desk in his office. But I'm not sure...

Marianne wrote:

> My comment was that indeed it is interesting that Fudge would be
> eager to see Sirius as V's right-hand man without much persuading,
> but would not want to see some obvious Voldemort activity in GoF.  It
> makes me think of a comment someone on this list made a while ago
> regarding Sirius' imprisonment w/o trial.  One of the reasons given
> as to why this happened was that someone in power in the MOM, who is
> really in league with Voldemort, wanted to ensure that Sirius was
> removed from the playing field.  In other words, get him out of the
> game by sending him to prison.

I said this a while ago, this is one of my pet theories. I can still not believe
that Sirius was just "one of those" who were sent to Azkaban without a
trial. We know he wasn't the only one, but is this really the only reason?
I mean, was he just another victim of Crouch's zeal to restore the order
after Voldy's downfall? It seems to be a bit to easy an explanation to me.
And remember how keen Fudge was at the end of PoA to get rid of Sirius
once and for all by having him kissed by a Dementor. Of course the
Ministry had failed to catch him, but he didn't commit another major
crime, and changing the sentence from imprisonment in Azkaban to
death is a bit hard IMHO just for breaking out and avoiding being
caught. Of course everybody believed he was really dangerous, but
there wasn't any real proof of this.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Fri Mar 23 17:29:23 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:29:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in particular
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c0b3ad$d90e96e0$5e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103231223570.877-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15011

On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Doreen wrote:

> ********************************
> I stongly disagree with this interpretation of Madam Pomfrey's role. She is
> a nurse and as such, has a very important part in the health & welfare of
> the students and staff. She does a bit more than merely "clean up."
> Doreen

I wasn't trying to say that her role is unimportant; she clearly is
vital to the Hogwarts community.  Their health and well-being depend on
her.  Nonetheless, her role is portrayed as a reactive, rather than
proactive, one.  She never initiates action, but merely responds to
others' actions.  She is a caretaker, the quintessentially feminine
role.  And in CoS, she can't do a thing to help the petrified students,
but simply has to wait until the mandrakes are grown up enough to be
used.  No society can get along without women, obviously, but it *can*
get along without viewing them as leaders.

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From minerva at femgeeks.net  Wed Mar 21 15:02:20 2001
From: minerva at femgeeks.net (Sofie 'Melle' Werkers)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:02:20 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Father figures, Snape, Dumbledore and Hogwarts
Message-ID: <F95swFCHOzyfyz5b6KZ00005a9f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15012

<Magda Grantwich>
<<Has anyone noticed how fanatical Snape is in his reverence for Hogwarts?  
Rules are everything.>>

That reminds me, does anyone else see a similarity between Percy and Snape? 
They both have an unbending reverence for rules, and there's been a few 
hints throughout GoF that Percy might go 'bad'.

I don't have my copy here, so I can't look up the exact quotes, but at one 
point, Ron says Percy would, like Crouch and his son, let his family members 
be punished if they'd break the rules. There was another bit that made me 
afraid of/for Percy, but I can't recall it off the top of my head.

Any thoughts?

Sofie

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
- I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
- I don't want that kind of power.
- You're just afraid of it.
(Draco and Harry; contextless snippetty conversation in my head)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
site: http://www.femgeeks.net/minerva | email: minerva[at]femgeeks.net
IRC: chatnet #femgeeks  | MSM: femgeek at hotmail.com |  AIM: badevilgrrl

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Fri Mar 23 17:45:51 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:45:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <00f101c0b3ab$b87db700$65878cac@shelley>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103231230130.877-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15013

On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Rina Stewart wrote:

> Jen wrote:
> 
> <<(Quickly contrasting the top ten, I would say that Ron, Hagrid,
> Dumbledore, Snape, Draco, Sirius, Remus, and Fred are all easily defined
> without any relation to a woman.)>>
> 
> Just playing a quick devil's advocate. <g> Ron is defined by his
> relationship to a man, as is Fred and Draco. Sirius and Remus also
> can be, among others. Ron is Harry's friend, Fred is Ron's brother
> and George's twin, Draco is Harry's enemy. Remus can be defined as a
> teacher at Hogwarts, or as James' old friend. Sirius is defined as
> Harry's godfather or James' best friend. So yes, most of the women
> are defined by their relationships to men, but so are men. When I'm
> describing the characters to people who don't know, these are the
> relationships I use.

And the ways you have listed are indeed the easiest and most natural
ways to describe the characters; that's exactly how I would define them,
also.  Not a *single* one of those characters is defined in relation to
a woman.  Draco isn't Hermione's enemy; Remus wasn't Lily's best
friend; Sirius isn't Minerva's godson.  The only relationships that are
important enough to become a defining part of a character are those
between / with men.  

Now, in some sense this focus on male bonds is natural, given that we
have a male protagonist.  Any character defined by a relation to Harry
will of course be defined by a relation to a male.  So the definitions
in relation to Harry don't really 'count' in that sense -- but when we
think of the focus on James instead of Lily for example (we only know
about his exploits at school and his friends; he's the one who protects
Harry in Patronus form -- even though it was Lily who *died* to protect
him before), it isn't quite so inevitable that it should be only
relations with / between men that are emphasized.

(One could also argue that JKR is being an extremely sensitive,
realistic (dare I say mimetic?) author in portraying how a typical
teenaged boy probably would view the world in terms of relations
with/among men.  Women's relationships with other women aren't part of
his natural Weltanschaung, and so JKR has cleverly elided them.  I won't
make that argument, but it could, profitably, be made.)

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From rina at love-productions.com  Fri Mar 23 18:09:49 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:09:49 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
Message-ID: <012c01c0b3c4$735b5060$65878cac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15014

Jen wrote:

<<And the ways you have listed are indeed the easiest and most natural
ways to describe the characters; that's exactly how I would define them,
also.  Not a *single* one of those characters is defined in relation to
a woman. >>

That's exactly my point. No one is defined by their role to a woman. You're saying that it's bad that women are only defined by their relationship to men, but I'm saying that so are the men. The women aren't being singled out here. 

<<when we think of the focus on James instead of Lily for example (we only know about his exploits at school and his friends; he's the one who protects
Harry in Patronus form -- even though it was Lily who *died* to protect
him before), it isn't quite so inevitable that it should be only
relations with / between men that are emphasized.>>

James was an animagus, Lily was not. Was the spirit of Lily supposed to come out? The realization that his patronus was his parent would be lost then. It makes more literary sense to make it an animal that is related to Harry that he will figure out later, than to spell it all out at once. 

Also, we've learned most of James' exploits from Hagrid and James' friends, right? (I could be wrong, I don't have the handle on the books many of you do.) It's natural that Hagrid would know more about James' time in school if he was the one always in the middle of something, and exploring outside. Maybe Lily's interests didn't lie in the outdoors. Nothing wrong with that - mine sure don't. LOL Also, The Marauders were clearly a foursome, like H/R/H is clearly a threesome. Let's say we're reading about Harry's kid with, oh, Lavendar, instead of Harry. Ron is a teacher at Hogwarts, H&L are dead. Ron's going to have more to say on Harry than Lavendar, because Lavendar wasn't part of the group. Lily obviously had her own interests away from James, and she pursued them. If Harry was on better terms with Flitwick, if Flitwick was the teacher back then, it's possible we might know more of Lily's life at school. 

What I'd like to see is if this next DADA teacher, or a future one, was Lily's best friend. It would be a fun way to learn about Lily, and get a new perspective on James and co. We will learn about Lily, though, no matter how. JKR has said so.

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 23 18:46:16 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:46:16 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <99fsai+m5d4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99g5lo+i3r8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15015

Demelza wrote:

>will he believe 
> Dumbledore (whom he characterized as "quite mad" in SS), 

I agree with all your points except this one.  Percy's attitude 
towards Dumbledore appears the same as Ron's:  he thinks he's mad and 
a genius.  Why should we not assume that, as for Ron, Dumbledore is 
Percy's hero?  And that, as for Ron, calling him mad isn't at all 
intended as an insult?

Amy Z





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 23 18:49:47 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:49:47 -0000
Subject: Secret-Keeper
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKCEKDCBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <99g5sb+k1q7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15016

Monika wrote:

> Well, Dumbledore seemed to have had at least some suspicions
> about Sirius because he tried to dissuade James and Lily from
> using Sirius as a Secret-Keeper and offered to be their Secret-
Keeper
> himself. He knew that someone had been passing information to
> Voldy for about a year, and he certainly didn't suspect Peter.

He didn't want Sirius to be the Secret-Keeper, but we can't say that 
he didn't suspect Peter.  All we know is that Sirius didn't (and that 
James and Lily, if they had any doubts about Peter, set them aside on 
Sirius's judgment).  Dumbledore never knew about the switch; perhaps 
if they'd run it by him, he'd have nixed it because of suspicions he 
held of Peter.

Amy Z




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 23 18:57:23 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:57:23 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <012c01c0b3c4$735b5060$65878cac@shelley>
Message-ID: <99g6aj+lhmq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15017

Sorry to keep replying in short bursts.  I don't have access to a 
word processing program and have to respond to one message at a 
time.  (The power's out at home . . . grrrr.)


> James was an animagus, Lily was not. Was the spirit of Lily 
>supposed to come out? The realization that his patronus was his 
>parent would be lost then. It makes more literary sense to make it 
>an animal that is related to Harry that he will figure out later, 
>than to spell it all out at once. 

Yes, it makes more literary sense given the overall structure of the 
book.  But it is JKR who chose to structure the book this way!  Why 
is it James who's the animagus instead of Lily?  Why are the four 
friends all male?  She didn't have to choose that arrangement, but 
she did.

I don't, personally, have a problem with the whole 
James/Prongs/Patronus thing.  But one can't delete it from 
the "evidence of sexism" list by saying that it fits better with the 
author's plans for the book--that begs the question of why her plans 
don't often include powerful women.

Amy Z




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 19:41:31 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 19:41:31 -0000
Subject: Pansy /Lover boy Draco
In-Reply-To: <99dve4+pfaf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99g8tb+hbbm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15018

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Ohmigod! I'm going to disagree with cassie! sorta!> Well, Tom 
> Felton is a cute little thing in the trailer, so that gives 
> > some credence to it. If they wanted him to be ugly, they could've 
> > given him some pointy, beaklike nose with the help of prosthetics 
7 
> > makeup. But they didn't. So if you want to take the movies as 
> canon,   he's cute, in that 11 year old way.
> 
> And I'm going to disagree with Heidi! It's a red-letter day! *takes 
> out her Kate Spade gingham handbag and whaps Heidi with it* Like 
Amy, 
> I don't reeeallly take the movies as canon in terms of the way 
> everyone looks-- they've obviously messed about a bit with character 
> appearances, as per necessity. Ron in the film is shorter than 
Harry, 
> wheras in the books he's clearly much taller. And look how much 
> prettier movie-Hermione is than book-Hermione. Hollywood does tend 
to 
> pretty people up.  
> 
> But I see your point. If JKR had envisioned Draco as completely 
> horrendous, they probably would have cast a horrendous-looking kid. 
> But she might simply envision him as fairly ordinary-looking. I 
> wasn't really arguing for an ugly Draco (how could I?). To me the 
> strongest proof that Draco isn't hideous is that if he was, Harry 
> would probably have mentioned it. We see everything from his POV, 
and 
> most of the Slytherins -- Pansy, Crabbe, Goyle, Milicent -- are 
> either not described or described as unattractive. If Draco were 
> ugly, I can't help thinking Harry'd be all over that. If "pale and 
> pointy" is the best he can do, maybe there just isn't all that much 
> bad to say about Draco's appearance. I was just arguing against 
> the "spectacularly beautiful looks-good-in-leather to-die-for Draco" 
> who *is* a fanon creation.
> 
By the same token, if Draco *is* particularly attractive, we're 
certainly not going to hear about it from Harry (can you imagine?:D)!  
I still haven't read any HP fanfic, but there's no way I could avoid 
hearing all about hottie leather-clad Draco and still participated in 
the list, so even I've got some image of fanon Draco, but I imagined 
him to be considered attractive by his peers from first reading.  

I think he *does* more or less have his pick of Slytherin girls of his 
year, even if he's not a Brad Pitt.  I mean who else would they go 
for?  Maybe Blase Zabini's a babe, but we've never heard about it, and 
usually when Draco's around, Pansy and her 'gang of Slytherin girls' 
are not far behind, and we know they at least enjoy his sense of 
humor.

kimberly
convinced that Draco doesn't get by on his sparkling personality 
alone.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 23 19:50:52 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 19:50:52 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women FB & QT Spoilers
In-Reply-To: <99g6aj+lhmq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99g9es+m7vp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15019

*
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
*
C
E
*
*
*
I've discovered a clue to where the wizarding world stands on women's 
issues...

 In QTA there's a quote from one Modesty Rabnott writing in 1269. She 
says about  the head of the Wizard's Council, predecessor of the MOM: 
"Chief Bragge would have lost my vote if I'd had one."

Which sounds like there was no women's suffrage at that time. We then 
learn that the Wizard's Council in the 14th century was headed by 
Elfrida Clagg, so it sounds as though British witches achieved the vote 
far in advance of their Muggle sisters.

Pippin (whose take on the interesting women in the books issue is that 
JKR identifies with Hermione, and doesn't want anyone competing with 
her.)





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Mar 23 20:08:13 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:08:13 -0000
Subject: Pansy /Lover boy Draco
In-Reply-To: <99g8tb+hbbm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99gafd+ljqd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15020

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:

> I think he *does* more or less have his pick of Slytherin girls of 
his 
> year, even if he's not a Brad Pitt.  I mean who else would they go 
> for?  Maybe Blase Zabini's a babe, but we've never heard about it, 
and 
> usually when Draco's around, Pansy and her 'gang of Slytherin girls' 
> are not far behind, and we know they at least enjoy his sense of 
> humor.

According to descriptions of Pansy, she has a face like a pug (dog). 
Millicent Bulstrode was described in an equally "flattering" way. I 
think Draco and Pansy are among "alpha male and female" of the 
Slytherin crowd, sort of like the stereotypical "the high school 
quaterback and the head cheerleader" phenomenon.

Here's a thought: what if Syltherin parents encourage their children 
to date other Slytherins or pure-bloods, in order to keep their family 
lineages pure? That might explain why Draco would escort Pansy to the 
Yule Ball: he had a very limited choice.

:-)Milz




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 23 20:08:58 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:08:58 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <99fsai+m5d4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99gagq+dfug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15021

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., muggle-reader at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sofie 'Melle' Werkers" <minerva at f...> 
> wrote:
>  
> > Oh, undoubtably.  If it came down to the simple, straightforward 
> choice 
> > between his career and his family, he would choose his family. 
> >
> 
> If Percy continues on the 
> same path that of his prior history (not believing Ron's Sirius Black 
> attack in PoA, ignoring Ginny's mental distress in CoS

	He doesn't ignore Ginny's distress. He notices she's looking pale 
(and bullies her into taking Pepperup Potion), that she's been crying, 
and that she's been having nightmares. (COS ch's 8,9,and 11). He's 
wrong about the cause, of course, but so is everyone else. And I don't 
think he was at all wrong to take points from Ron for talking back to 
him in the presence of another student. 
Pippin





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 23 20:40:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:40:53 -0000
Subject: attn amateur handwriting analysts
Message-ID: <99gccl+3bcg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15022

T
H
E
P
O
W
E
R
I
S
O
U
T
A
N
D
A
L
L
M
Y
F
O
O
D
I
S
S
P
O
I
L
I
N
G

Okay, this observation qualifies me as 150% obsessed, but I FINALLY 
got my Raincoast copies of QTA and FB, and Harry's signature is 
different than in the US edition!  On the US FB it is exactly the 
same as in the US GoF (which, for those who haven't seen it, has 
Harry's and Sirius's signatures on their letters).  I noticed because 
his "y" is very distinctive:  almost no loop, and the final upstroke 
goes sharply off to the right.  His sig on the Canadian edition, both 
on the outside and first page of the book, is loopier and rounder 
(and resembles the rest of his writing better, IMO, though people's 
signatures do vary quite a bit from their regular handwriting).  The 
rest of the graffiti is identical in the two versions, I think.

I wonder why there's a difference?

Amy Z




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 21:23:31 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 21:23:31 -0000
Subject: Pansy /Lover boy Draco
In-Reply-To: <99gafd+ljqd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99gesj+hv74@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15023

> Here's a thought: what if Syltherin parents encourage their children 
> to date other Slytherins or pure-bloods, in order to keep their 
family 
> lineages pure? That might explain why Draco would escort Pansy to 
the 
> Yule Ball: he had a very limited choice.
> 
> :-)Milz

That's how I thought of it. Kind of. I envision Draco as tolerating 
Pansy's presence only because his father demands that he stay within 
the range of pureblood Slytherin in dating choices. I don't see him 
actually liking Pansy, merely allowing her to clutch at him. *gag* She 
seems quite happy with being his 'girlfriend', however, seeing as he's 
wealthy, upper-class, and a... leader of sorts among the Slytherins 
close to him in age.

Draco didn't strike me as being unattractive, even before I read the 
descriptions of Hot!Draco in fanfics. I disliked Draco before reading 
fanfics, and even then I didn't think he was ugly, just unremarkable. 
And notice that, even when Harry gets extremely angry at Draco in the 
books, he doesn't make him out to be unattractive. JKR merely talks 
about his smirk, his paleness, the sharp lines of his face and the 
coldness of his eyes.

- Celeste Chang




From litalex at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 21:27:31 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:27:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Maurader's Map (was Re: Order of the Phoenix)
In-Reply-To: <3ABB54BD.56984291@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010323212731.22088.qmail@web1203.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15024

Hello,

> > No-one noticed Pettigrew on the maurader's map
> until the story called
> > for it. He was at hogwarts for over two years. It

Which is actually not that surprising, considering
that there are at least one thousand people on that
map whenever one begins to use it.  Remember, it has
*everyone* present at Hogwarts on it.  Or, maybe I'm
wrong and it doesn't show everyone present...

Anyway, the map was at first Fred and George's, no? 
And they gave it to Harry in book...3?  So, for F&G,
Peter Pettigrew might not be a significant enough name
for them to have notice or they weren't focusing on
that section at all.  And why should they?  They want
to avoid teachers and prefects; who cares about other
students?

As to Harry, I doubt he uses the map when PP is close
enough to him to be noticed anyway.

little Alex

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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From margdean at erols.com  Fri Mar 23 21:58:18 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:58:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pansy /Lover boy Draco
References: <99gafd+ljqd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABBC6FA.16DF0EAD@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15025

absinthe at mad.scientist.com wrote:

> Here's a thought: what if Syltherin parents encourage their children
> to date other Slytherins or pure-bloods, in order to keep their family
> lineages pure? That might explain why Draco would escort Pansy to the
> Yule Ball: he had a very limited choice.

And maybe it explains why certain of the Slytherins (mentioning
no names) could very well be suffering the effects of severe
inbreeding?  :)


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 21:47:45 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 21:47:45 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <99ecda+8d37@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99gga1+sbop@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15026

This thread has been interesting to me, as I tend to take characters 
as they are.  I can't imagine, for example, Flitwick being a woman or 
Trelawny being a man.  They're who they are.  By extension I can't 
imagine that, having created a Flitwick or a Trelawny (or any of the 
other characters), an author would decide to scrap them in order to 
make room for a character of a different gender.  I guess it could be 
argued that she should have created more of the characters as women to 
begin with, but, well, do imaginations work that way?  If you want to 
create a good, solid character, can you start with something like "I 
need a woman, because I already have 3 men.", or for that matter "I 
need a person of X race, religion, orientation, physical trait, etc. 
to balance it out."?  It seems like an artificial way to create a 
character.  

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> > 
> > As I see it, Susan, Amy & Joy are all largely basing their 
> arguments on
> > the numbers.  BTW, I agree with Amy's belief that perceptions can 
be
> > skewed (the notion that people perceive the numbers to be skewed 
to
> > females if it's actually equal).
> 
> I agree with Amy that people "see" two strong female characters and 
> that equals ten. We are so used to (this is a generalization of 
> course) women blending into the woodwork, being quiet, or not taking 
> up space, that when women are as vocal as men, they are perceived as 
> loud. A man and a woman can speak in the same tone and be direct in 
> their comments. The man will elicit no particular reaction; people 
> will notice (and usually not positively) the woman. Argumentative 
> women will be characterized as a (word rhymes with snitch); 
> argumentative men will be seen as engaging in fun debate. 
> 

Now see, when I read something like this, I can't help but ask - By 
whom would the women be regarded this way?  I feel like this is a 
pretty big generalization, and sort of expects the worst of people.  
There are lots of women on this list who love a debate 
(understatement, huh?), and I don't think any of us consider each 
other to be, err... snitches.  At least I hope not (you guys don't 
think I'm a snitch, do you?)!  Maybe I'm naive, but I think most 
people would rather be around a person (of any gender) who has 
expresses their thoughts and opinions than someone who just nods and 
smiles.  

> But actually the numbers aren't bad..this is not a question 
> of "gender balance"...a euphemism. "Numbers" are a problem only
> when there are ten fascinating complex male characters to two 
> fascinating complex female characters (and I think there's really 
> only one fascinating complex character).
> And the women are not seen as particularly whole...they embody one 
> set of stereotypical female virtues (they are EITHER mother OR wise 
> woman OR young sexually attractive). Where are the sexy older 
women?

True enough.  Only one I can think of is Madam Rosemerta, and we don't 
get much of her, other than Hagrid's (and Ron's) apparent appreciation 
for her form and her 'exposition fairy' role when the gang was 
listening into the conversation about Sirius in PoA.

> I haven't noticed any of the men (who are interested in women) 
> drooling over the adult women. (the way women who are interested in 
> men are interested in Lupin, Black, Sirius). I don't think that's 
the 
> problem of people on the list -- I think it's an issue with the 
books

I'd love to see more strong female characters in the books to come, 
but I quite like and admire the characters that we have.  

Hermione's already been covered - she's strong and smart and brave and 
just all-around great, and to top it off she cleans up good.  I don't 
think I need to say more about her.

McGonagal's gotten her share of attention here too, and let me just 
say I think she rocks!  She's definitely not one-sided at all.  She's 
a very powerful witch, she's intelligent, determined, wise, and knows 
where her loyalties lie.  She's got a sense of humor, even if she uses 
it sparingly (tripe, anyone?).  She also has a feisty enthusiasm for 
Quidditch, a competitive streak, and the respect of Severus Snape, 
which we know is not an easy thing to come by.  She's also got a 
caring, tender side, which, as a teacher, she doesn't show often, but 
nevertheless has been made aparent.

I find it odd that with the perception that strong female characters 
are lacking, many people discount Ginny without giving her a chance.  
Her potential is so clear to me.  I think shes - no, let me rephrase - 
I know she's got stuff in her that's waiting to come out in the next 
books.  She has already shown strength of character (pre-ball, 
comforting Ron, standing up for Neville), a sense of humor (his eyes 
are as green as a fresh-pickled toad!  Hee!) and rather a lot of 
perserverance (as Harry's not exactly been encouraging all this time).  
I have faith that these things will develop further, and I think there 
have been lots of hints to that effect so far.

But I think the one who really hasn't gotten her props is Molly.  She 
is fabulous.  I definitely don't think she can be seen as "Arthur's 
wife', since we didn't even meet Arthur before seeing that she was a 
force to be reckoned with.  And I don't think she's 'just' a mother, 
either.  She's a fierce protector and strong disciplinarian to her 
kids, true.  I think that's a mark of a strong woman right there.  But 
she's also clearly a lover.  She and Arthur didn't get those seven 
kids from a cabbage patch, and while we haven't been exposed to the 
two of them mashing, I'd be appalled if we were, as it would have to 
happen in front of Harry.  She *does* refer to their 'wild' times 
together at Hogwarts, though.  She's also pretty wise, her weakness 
for Lockhart and her belief of the Skeeter article notwithstanding.  
She's at least more wise than Fudge and all the others who are not 
willing to accept Voldemort's return.  She's also exceedingly brave.  
She made the decision to commit herself and her family to the fight 
against Voldemort in an instant.  She didn't have to think about it.  
She knows her mind, and I've yet to see her go after something and not 
get it.  She can cook and clean, but that's not all she is.

I'm not really disagreeing that the books could use more strng female 
characters - I can definitely see that - but I can't overlook the 
great qualities of the ones that are there.  Plus, it gives me a 
chance to cheer for another Weasley.  Molly deserves a little rah-rah 
too!




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Fri Mar 23 21:49:50 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 21:49:50 -0000
Subject: Maurader's Map (was Re: Order of the Phoenix)
In-Reply-To: <20010323212731.22088.qmail@web1203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99ggdu+bd6k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15027

 little Alex wrote

> So, for F&G, Peter Pettigrew might not be a significant enough name
> for them to have notice or they weren't focusing on
> that section at all.  And why should they?  They want
> to avoid teachers and prefects; who cares about other
> students?

I'd think that they were more interested in making sure places (halls, 
passages, etc.) were empty than in "naming the dots".  They'd look, see 
dots where they expected to, make sure their path was clear, and then 
make mischief.

> 
> As to Harry, I doubt he uses the map when PP is close
> enough to him to be noticed anyway.
> 
I think you're right.  The first time he used the map, I think Ron was 
already in Hogsmeade.  Actually, I think he meets Ron both times 
outside of Hogwarts. (Did he only use it twice in PoA? I don't remember 
more before Lupin got it.)  
a.





From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 21:56:03 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 21:56:03 -0000
Subject: Gender balance If HP were a girl
In-Reply-To: <99c5nq+b15t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ggpj+64jn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15028

> 
> > > My point being, if Harry had been female, I don't think it'd 
have 
> made
> > > any
> > > difference, as long as she had the same adventures et al that 
> Harry
> > > has.

Actually, I have to disagree slightly... some things may have changed.

As a boy, Harry tends to keep things more quiet and to repress 
emotions. Males in general tend to bottle up emotion, and rarely just 
sit and have a nice talk. A girl usually will. As a girl, Harr-ieta 
(haha) might be more open about confessing certain things. And 
besides, as a girl, she might develop some cozy feelings for Draco 
once those hormones get flowing...

Speaking of Draco, certain confrontations might not quite play out the 
way they did in canon if Harry were a girl. I don't know whether Draco 
is the kind of boy who will strike a girl, but he didn't strike me (no 
pun intended) as that type- Hermione struck him in third year and he 
didn't retaliate physically- or even verbally, even though no teachers 
were around. Even though Harry and Ron were there, he's done nasty 
things to Herm while the boys were around (calling her Mudblood). Of 
course, the lack of retaliation could have been due to shock, but...

- Celeste Chang




From litalex at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 22:01:52 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 14:01:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <00f101c0b3ab$b87db700$65878cac@shelley>
Message-ID: <20010323220152.12963.qmail@web1201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15029

Hello,

--- Rina Stewart <rina at love-productions.com> wrote:
> men. When I'm describing the characters to people
> who don't know, these are the relationships I use.

Well, if we go by that route, then everyone is somehow
defined by his/her relationship with Harry Potter,
since he's the protagonist in the book. :-)

little Alex


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From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 22:02:00 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 22:02:00 -0000
Subject: Pansy /Lover boy Draco
In-Reply-To: <3ABBC6FA.16DF0EAD@erols.com>
Message-ID: <99gh4o+bpaq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15030

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> absinthe at m... wrote:
> 
> > Here's a thought: what if Syltherin parents encourage their 
children
> > to date other Slytherins or pure-bloods, in order to keep their 
family
> > lineages pure? That might explain why Draco would escort Pansy to 
the
> > Yule Ball: he had a very limited choice.
> 
> And maybe it explains why certain of the Slytherins (mentioning
> no names) could very well be suffering the effects of severe
> inbreeding?  :)

 LOL! You never know! I think that to a certain extent, Slytherin 
families encourage their children to go for other Slytherins, and 
certainly not "Muggle lovers". Gryffindors are quite off-limits, 
simply because of the rivalry, but it does say in, one of the books 
(I forget which) that Ravenclaw is a neutral house, and because they 
are smart, and not necessarily 'good', I would presume they were 
okay, but Hufflepuffs are thought of as "a lot of duffers", so I 
can't imagine someone like Lucius Malfoy being okay with that kind of 
romance.

 As far as Draco being attractive: I agree that even if he were, 
Harry would never acknowledge that in a million years. We have no 
reason to think that he is or isn't. He has blond hair and gray eyes, 
which sounds like a nice combination, but maybe Harry forgot to 
mentally note all of the acne. In fact, the only time Malfoy's looks 
are ever mentioned, it's at the Yule Ball, and Harry thinks his robes 
make him look like a vicar. No comment.

MC




From litalex at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 22:09:57 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 14:09:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in particular
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c0b3ad$d90e96e0$5e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <20010323220957.29706.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15031

Hello,

> Pomfrey's role. She is
> a nurse and as such, has a very important part in
> the health & welfare of
> the students and staff. She does a bit more than
> merely "clean up."

The stereotype has always been that the doctors are
male and nurses female, because doctors are seen as
more important than nurses.  Although a school
presumably doesn't need a doctor, by having the school
nurse as female, the book is conforming to stereotypes
that had been in our culture for at least half a
century.  Nurses *are* important, but doctors get more
respect.

little Alex


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From eccleston at clara.co.uk  Fri Mar 23 22:15:15 2001
From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 22:15:15 -0000
Subject: Pansy /Lover boy Draco
In-Reply-To: <99gesj+hv74@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ghtj+p5qv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15032

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Celeste Chang" <celeste_827 at y...> wrote:
> > Here's a thought: what if Syltherin parents encourage their 
children 
> > to date other Slytherins or pure-bloods, in order to keep their 
> family 
> > lineages pure? That might explain why Draco would escort Pansy to 
> the 
> > Yule Ball: he had a very limited choice.
> > 
> > :-)Milz
> 
> That's how I thought of it. Kind of. I envision Draco as tolerating 
> Pansy's presence only because his father demands that he stay 
within 
> the range of pureblood Slytherin in dating choices. I don't see him 
> actually liking Pansy, merely allowing her to clutch at him. *gag* 
She 
> seems quite happy with being his 'girlfriend', however, seeing as 
he's 
> wealthy, upper-class, and a... leader of sorts among the Slytherins 
> close to him in age.
> 
> Draco didn't strike me as being unattractive, even before I read 
the 
> descriptions of Hot!Draco in fanfics. I disliked Draco before 
reading 
> fanfics, and even then I didn't think he was ugly, just 
unremarkable. 
> And notice that, even when Harry gets extremely angry at Draco in 
the 
> books, he doesn't make him out to be unattractive. JKR merely talks 
> about his smirk, his paleness, the sharp lines of his face and the 
> coldness of his eyes.
> 
> - Celeste Chang

As a name "Pansy", in England, has a number of connotations:- it's 
slang for a very effeminate or camp man and was also the name of an 
old cartoon girl who was the daughter of a weight lifter in English 
comics 30 years ago - " Pansy Potter - The Strong Mans Daughter" - 
She was always rather well built if I remember rightly.

So the name "Pansy" has immediate comic and amiguous sexual overtones 
to me, which seems about right for Slytherine!





From katie at vquill.com  Fri Mar 23 22:47:20 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 14:47:20 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in particular
In-Reply-To: <20010323220957.29706.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <00ec01c0b3ad$d90e96e0$5e14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010323144642.00b84100@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15033

At 02:09 PM 3/23/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
> > Pomfrey's role. She is
> > a nurse and as such, has a very important part in
> > the health & welfare of
> > the students and staff. She does a bit more than
> > merely "clean up."
>
>The stereotype has always been that the doctors are
>male and nurses female, because doctors are seen as
>more important than nurses.  Although a school
>presumably doesn't need a doctor, by having the school
>nurse as female, the book is conforming to stereotypes
>that had been in our culture for at least half a
>century.  Nurses *are* important, but doctors get more
>respect.
>
>little Alex


I'm sorry -- how is she a nurse and not a doctor? Nurses don't diagnose. 
Nurses don't re-grow entire arms back.

Pomfrey *is* the doctor and is a very powerful character.

-Katie




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Fri Mar 23 23:13:19 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:13:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in particular
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010323144642.00b84100@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103231809520.14301-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15034

On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Katie Kearns wrote:

> I'm sorry -- how is she a nurse and not a doctor? Nurses don't diagnose. 
> Nurses don't re-grow entire arms back.

Madam Pomfrey is a nurse, and not a doctor, because she's called such.  
"Madam Pomfrey, the nurse, was a nice woman, but very strict" (SS,
p.301).

And nurses, school nurses in particular, often do make (preliminary)
diagnoses, esp. of the 'does this child need to be sent home, does a
doctor need to be called, or should they just be sent back to class'
sort.  And our doctors don't regrow arms, either.

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Fri Mar 23 23:19:18 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:19:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <012c01c0b3c4$735b5060$65878cac@shelley>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103231814180.14301-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15035

On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Rina Stewart wrote:

> That's exactly my point. No one is defined by their role to a woman.
> You're saying that it's bad that women are only defined by their
> relationship to men, but I'm saying that so are the men. The women
> aren't being singled out here.

Right.  Exactly.  I'm not arguing at all that the women are being
singled out in not having defining relationships with women -- but that
*no one* has a defining relationship with a woman.  If the men were
defined in terms of relationships with women, the books then would have
much less of a gender bias.  But not for a single character is a
relationship with a woman important enough to be one of their defining
characteristics, which is clear gender bias, to my mind (and not all
that realistic).

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Mar 23 23:35:52 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 23:35:52 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <99gga1+sbop@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99gmko+sotn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15036

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> This thread has been interesting to me, as I tend to take 
characters 
> as they are.  I can't imagine, for example, Flitwick being a woman 
or 
> Trelawny being a man.  They're who they are.  By extension I can't 
> imagine that, having created a Flitwick or a Trelawny (or any of 
the 
> other characters), an author would decide to scrap them in order to 
> make room for a character of a different gender.  I guess it could 
be 
> argued that she should have created more of the characters as women 
to 
> begin with, but, well, do imaginations work that way?  If you want 
to 
> create a good, solid character, can you start with something 
like "I 
> need a woman, because I already have 3 men.", or for that matter "I 
> need a person of X race, religion, orientation, physical trait, 
etc. 
> to balance it out."?  It seems like an artificial way to create a 
> character.  
> 
>
I can't write by formula.  The characters tend to spring, full-blown, 
into my subconscious, where they scream at me to let them out by 
writing about them.  

IIRC, JKR has said in chats that Harry came to her much the same 
way.  I don't think she would then say, OK, I need so many women, so 
many men, etc.  

I find, too, that my characters won't let me have them do something 
out of character (that sounds funny) either.

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Sat Mar 24 00:37:18 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: 23 Mar 2001 16:37:18 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance If HP were a girl
Message-ID: <20010324003718.26445.cpmta@c006.snv.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15037

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 00:51:41 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:51:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in particular
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010323144642.00b84100@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <20010324005141.27758.qmail@web1201.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15038

Hello,

--- Katie Kearns <katie at vquill.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry -- how is she a nurse and not a doctor?
> Nurses don't diagnose. 
> Nurses don't re-grow entire arms back.
> 
> Pomfrey *is* the doctor and is a very powerful
> character.

Er, name one doctor you know who can re-grow an entire
arm bone.  I wasn't the one calling her a nurse, she's
called a nurse by author herself, iirc.  Also, we're
operating on wizarding rules here, who knows what
consists of a doctor or a nurse in this world.

little Alex


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From ender_w at msn.com  Sat Mar 24 01:12:10 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:12:10 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance If HP were a girl
References: <99ggpj+64jn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c0b3ff$7540fe80$69eb183f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 15039


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Celeste Chang 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 4:56 PM
  Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance If HP were a girl

  >As a boy, Harry tends to keep things more quiet and to repress 
  >emotions. Males in general tend to bottle up emotion, and rarely just 
  >sit and have a nice talk. A girl usually will. As a girl, Harr-ieta 
  >(haha) might be more open about confessing certain things. 

  Not all girls are open and emotional, especially if they have experienced abuse such as what Harry experiences when he's with the Dursley's.  as a teacher I've known girls as reticent as Harry and boys who were quite emotional. It's not the norm, certainly, but it does happen.


  >And 
  besides, as a girl, she might develop some cozy feelings for >Draco once those hormones get flowing...

  Actually, I would imagine that if Harry had been a girl, Draco would have as well (Drac-ette?).  The rivalry between the two characters is a major part of the stories and a boy-girl rivalry might not have the same spark as a same-sex rivalry...though, again as a teacher, I have seen some very heated, non-romantic (trust me on this one) boy-girl rivalries.


  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lj2d30 at gateway.net  Sat Mar 24 01:31:24 2001
From: lj2d30 at gateway.net (Trina)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:31:24 -0000
Subject: Percy Lovers Unite
Message-ID: <99gtdc+oli0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15040

Since Percy the perpetual prefect has come under scrutiny once again, 
I feel the need to toss in my 2 knuts.  I really love Percy, I really 
do.  He does adhere to rules rather vigorously, but that's a trait 
that he has apparently picked up from his mum Molly.  From everything 
we've seen from Molly she too is a strict follower of rules.  When we 
first meet her in S/PS she is warning F&G to behave themselves ("If I 
get one more owl...") ; it is Molly who sends the Howler to Ron over 
the Flying Ford Anglia; it is also Molly who gets all bent out of 
shape over Weasley Wizard Wheezes and Bill's long hair and earring.  
Arthur seems a little more relaxed over rules, despite his being a 
MoM employee, and the other Weasley kids seem to take after him.   

The point I seem *not* to be making here is simply this:  loving the 
rules and following them to the letter does not necessarily mean that 
a person will fall in with the dark side.  We never get to see Percy 
as anything other than big brother, prefect, Head Boy and junior MoM 
assistant.  What was he like in the Hogwarts year(s) in which neither 
of his older brothers nor his younger siblings were attending? Did he 
ever play Twister with the school rules himself? <<Envisions Percy 
doing something illegal and getting in so much trouble with Mum and 
Dad that he vows *never* to break a rule again!>>  

Percy has, as far as we know, never been in a position in which he 
has had to question the authority.  How he reacts in the moment when 
that decision has to be made will tell us of his nature.  I think, 
given his reaction to various family dangers, he will make the right 
call.  I have faith in Percy.  And I'm willing to share it with those 
of you who worry about the boy.

Trina, defender of Percy.




From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 01:33:43 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 17:33:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy
In-Reply-To: <99gagq+dfug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010324013344.12724.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15041

Hello,

> 	He doesn't ignore Ginny's distress. He notices
> [snip Percy's actions or lack thereof]

He notices, but he doesn't do anything about it ('cept
for the juice, I'll give him credit for that).  The
last poster didn't say Percy didn't notice, she/he
said Percy ignored it, as in not doing anything about
it, which is true.

little Alex

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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 01:42:03 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 17:42:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103231230130.877-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <20010324014203.17592.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15042

> Not a *single* one of those characters is defined in
> relation to a woman.  Draco isn't Hermione's enemy;...The only 
> relationships that are important enough to become a defining part 
> of a character are those between / with men.  


I'm not at all sure about this.  Draco is quite obsessed with
Hermione's lack of wizard descent, hopes she's killed at least a
couple of times and taunts her repeatedly.

I think that's enmity.

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From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Mar 24 01:50:11 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 19:50:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy Lovers Unite
References: <99gtdc+oli0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABBFD52.7A2CB7B5@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15043

Hi --

I'm a card-carrying member of Percy Lovers Unite & I second all of
Trina's thoughts!!

Trina wrote:

> He does adhere to rules rather vigorously, but that's a trait
> that he has apparently picked up from his mum Molly.  From everything
> we've seen from Molly she too is a strict follower of rules.

Exactly.  That's why some people believe that Molly "favors" Percy over
her other children.  I, OTOH, have always thought it's just that she
identifies strongly with Percy, because he's clearly so much like her.
He's the only Weasley child who really seems like her to me.  I think
the rest of them do take after Arthur personality-wise.  I don't think
she favors him as much as she just bonds with him much more.

Demelza wrote:

> In GoF, Percy says that Arthur's troubles in the Ministry was due to his handling of the Death Mark saga after the
> World Cup event and not due to the bias reporting of the Daily
> Prophet.
>
Percy has been in his new job for all of what ... 2-3 months at that
point?  He's an "over-eager" ambitious young kid in his first job in the
real world, and I think he was just trying to "show off" a bit with that
remark.  He was trying to seem wise & all-knowing.

> Will he believe Cornelius Fudge, the Minister of Magic and his boss, and those in the
> Ministry who wish to cover-up Voldemort's return or will he believe
> Dumbledore (whom he characterized as "quite mad" in SS), his father a
> low-ranking Ministry official, and Harry?
>
I think he'll struggle.  He'll want to believe the Fudge/MoM line, but I
think Percy will eventually be persuaded of the truth.  My only concern
is that Percy may not get his "wake-up call" until someone close to him
has died.  Or, maybe he'll change sides, but it will be rather last
minute.  I definitely do think he will struggle, and it will be an
interesting conflict for us as readers to experience.  But, in the end,
my money says Percy does not side with the dark forces or turn a blind
eye to events transpiring around him.

Like others, I'll point out that his statement that Dumbledore is "quite
mad" is really just a compliment in disguise.  He has the same
admiration of AD as Ron and just about every other Hogwarts student.  He
just meant that AD was eccentric.  IMHO.

> If Percy continues on the
> same path that of his prior history (not believing Ron's Sirius Black
> attack in PoA, ignoring Ginny's mental distress in CoS, and wholly
> blaming Arthur in GoF), I would say The Burrow will be a "House
> Divided".
>
He definitely didn't ignore Ginny in CoS.  Quite the opposite.  He was
the one who was very concerned about her.  He threatened to owl Molly if
the twins didn't stop teasing her, and he insisted that she take
pepper-upper potion.  He definitely displayed caring & concern for her
in CoS.

I'm already Defender of Hermione, so I'll just be Trina's right-hand man
in the Percy Lovers Unite campaign .....

Penny
(who was some combo of Dumbledore, Hermione, Percy & McGonagall in one
of the personality quizzes ... can we say "likes rules!")


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Mar 24 02:06:51 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:06:51 -0600
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
References: <99g9es+m7vp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABC013B.F86F3853@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15044

Hi --

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> Pippin (whose take on the interesting women in the books issue is that
>
> JKR identifies with Hermione, and doesn't want anyone competing with
> her)

I quite agree!  I see Hermione as very much JKR's surrogate in the
series.

Kimberly wrote:

> Susan wrote: I agree with Amy that people "see" two strong female characters and
> > that equals ten. We are so used to (this is a generalization of
> > course) women blending into the woodwork, being quiet, or not taking
> > up space, that when women are as vocal as men, they are perceived as
> > loud. A man and a woman can speak in the same tone and be direct in
> > their comments. The man will elicit no particular reaction; people
> > will notice (and usually not positively) the woman. Argumentative
> > women will be characterized as a (word rhymes with snitch);
> > argumentative men will be seen as engaging in fun debate.
> >
>
> Kimberly responded: Now see, when I read something like this, I can't help but ask - By
> whom would the women be regarded this way?  I feel like this is a
> pretty big generalization, and sort of expects the worst of people.
> There are lots of women on this list who love a debate
> (understatement, huh?), and I don't think any of us consider each
> other to be, err... snitches.  At least I hope not (you guys don't
> think I'm a snitch, do you?)!  Maybe I'm naive, but I think most
> people would rather be around a person (of any gender) who has
> expresses their thoughts and opinions than someone who just nods and
> smiles.
>
Actually, I definitely 100% whole-heartedly agree with Susan.  I base
that observation on the legal profession.  Female lawyers who take a
strong stand or are assertive or ambitious are almost invariably
labelled as "snitches" to use Susan's polite jargon.  Male lawyers
displaying the *exact* same behavior are doing their job, successful,
hard-hitting but efficacious.  The females get described in negative
terms and have a hard time advancing in the profession as a result.
But, the exact same actions by a male lawyer are praised in glowing
terms.  The perception in these cases is on the part of colleagues,
staff, clients, adversaries ... everyone.    Definitely .... definitely
... definitely.  Seen it more times than I can count.

Color me jaded but that's the truth in that one profession at least.  It
may as a general rule not extend to all professions or situations, but I
can vouch that it's true in the legal world.

> I find it odd that with the perception that strong female characters
> are lacking, many people discount Ginny without giving her a chance.
> Her potential is so clear to me.
>
I think she has potential as a character.  But, I remain skeptical
because I'm not convinced that JKR is heading that route.  I know she's
said we'll see more of Ginny, but I think we all thought that would be
true in GoF and it wasn't.  It's my perception that if Ginny were going
to be a key player, she would have more than a few lines in PoA & GoF.
What was she -- number 29 in terms of lines/space according to that
analysis someone posted earlier today?  That says alot to me.

BTW, whoever compiled that "lines/space" analysis deserves 200% on any
HP obsessiveness quiz!!

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Mar 24 02:08:46 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:08:46 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Spoilers for Schoolbooks can end
Message-ID: <3ABC01AE.88E99AF4@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15045

Hi --

The Moderator Group has decided we can stop using spoiler space for the
schoolbooks released 12 March (it's been nearly 2 wks).  So, effective
tomorrow, feel free to eliminate spoiler space from any posts that
relate to the schoolbooks.

Penny
The Mod Squad




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sat Mar 24 02:35:08 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 21:35:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <20010324014203.17592.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103232131520.14301-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15046

On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Magda Grantwich wrote:

> > Not a *single* one of those characters is defined in
> > relation to a woman.  Draco isn't Hermione's enemy;...The only 
> > relationships that are important enough to become a defining part 
> > of a character are those between / with men.  
> 
> I'm not at all sure about this.  Draco is quite obsessed with
> Hermione's lack of wizard descent, hopes she's killed at least a
> couple of times and taunts her repeatedly.
> 
> I think that's enmity.

Hmm, yes, I didn't mean that Hermione and Draco aren't enemies, but
rather, that his enmity with Hermione would never, I don't think, be
essential to saying who Draco is in the books.  Draco is essentially
*Harry's* enemy; it's easy enough to view his antagonism towards
Hermione (and Ron) as part of his role as Harry's enemy.

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 02:45:43 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:45:43 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance If HP were a girl
References: <99ggpj+64jn@eGroups.com> <000b01c0b3ff$7540fe80$69eb183f@satellite>
Message-ID: <001301c0b40c$8688e6a0$d211eda9@kwan>

No: HPFGUIDX 15047

Hello,

From: ender_w <ender_w at msn.com>
>   Actually, I would imagine that if Harry had been a girl, Draco would
have as well (Drac-ette?).  The rivalry between the two characters is a
major part of the stories and a boy-girl rivalry might not have the same
spark as a same-sex rivalry...though, again as a teacher, I have seen some
very heated, non-romantic (trust me on this one) boy-girl rivalries.

Now you're speaking as a definite gen reader.  For us slasher, the fact that
they're the same sex doesn't preclude romance (or rivalry).

little Alex




From editor at texas.net  Sat Mar 24 02:55:57 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:55:57 -0600
Subject: Pomfrey and Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in particular
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103231223570.877-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <3ABC0CBD.1B1BD444@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15048

Jen Faulkner wrote:

> Nonetheless, her [Pomfrey's] role is portrayed as a reactive, rather
> than proactive, one.  She never initiates action, but merely responds
> to others' actions.

Not to muddy the waters, but I think there's some confusion here between
her job and her personality. Medical personnel in 99% of cases are
responding to medical conditions or needs; they don't go out and get
their patients like aggressive shoe salesmen. And in the practice of her
job, she's pretty aggressive about how she does it and who can do what
and where, etc.

>  She is a caretaker, the quintessentially feminine
> role.  And in CoS, she can't do a thing to help the petrified
> students, but simply has to wait until the mandrakes are grown up
> enough to be used.

*Everyone* has to wait until they're grown up. *Nobody* can help the
students, Dumbledore included. This isn't a failure or fault of hers.
This is simply the situation, regardless of the gender of the person in
charge of the hospital wing.

>  No society can get along without women, obviously, but it *can* get
> along without viewing them as leaders.

Why is being viewed as a leader so important? Why are you only important
as a woman if you can be viewed favorably through a traditionally
male-role lens? Why try to be female men, instead of very strong women
doing what they want to do (which may be raising kids or being a school
nurse)?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sat Mar 24 03:06:57 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 21:06:57 -0600
Subject: A bit more Pomfrey (was Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in  particular)
References: <20010323220957.29706.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ABC0F51.E5AA3850@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15049

"Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote:

> The stereotype has always been that the doctors are
> male and nurses female, because doctors are seen as
> more important than nurses.

No, the stereotype has been that way because until recently, the doctors
*were* mostly male and the nurses *were* mostly female. The perception
grew from the stereotype, not vice versa.

>  Although a school
> presumably doesn't need a doctor, by having the school
> nurse as female, the book is conforming to stereotypes
> that had been in our culture for at least half a
> century.

I think it might simply be that when the medical director at a school is
female, she'll tend to be called "school nurse." Pomfrey does
significantly more than your average school nurse. Most schools don't
have entire hospital wings. Most school nurses don't spit fire the way
she does--she's nothing less than didactic on her own turf--quite a
strong woman indeed, when she's speaking as a professional in her field.

And in the in-many-ways-quite-archaic world of wizards, "doctor" might
still be a term that is not medical. Or never used at all, since they do
not seem to have an educational system after Hogwarts. We call doctors
doctors because that's the title they get from their institutions after
advanced study. Any Ph.D. or J.D. is a doctorate. It's an educational
level, and the wizarding world thus far has not exhibited comparable
further formal education levels.

In fact, the wizarding world reminds me strongly (in the matter of
research and inquiry and "experts") of the great 'age of naturalists,'
the late eighteenth to late nineteenth centuries, when the contributions
of self-educated laymen were vital to several disciplines.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sat Mar 24 03:12:17 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 21:12:17 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103231814180.14301-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <3ABC1091.843D5D7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15050

Jen Faulkner wrote:

> Right.  Exactly.  I'm not arguing at all that the women are being
> singled out in not having defining relationships with women -- but
> that *no one* has a defining relationship with a woman.

Perhaps if we meet Hermione's mom? Or Hermione's dad? Or hear more about
Lily so that Harry's Lily's son as much as he has been James? Remember
that we're just over halfway through the whole work. This is from
Harry's point of view, and Hermione's really the only female important
enough to him to act as a "definer" yet.

--Amanda, a.k.a. Jan's wife, Kasia's mom, Tommy's sister, Catherine &
Herb's daughter, Susan's sparring partner (it depends on where you're
looking FROM, you see)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 03:54:00 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 19:54:00 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A bit more Pomfrey (was Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in  particular)
References: <20010323220957.29706.qmail@web1206.mail.yahoo.com> <3ABC0F51.E5AA3850@texas.net>
Message-ID: <009a01c0b416$10897d20$d211eda9@kwan>

No: HPFGUIDX 15051

Hello,

> No, the stereotype has been that way because until recently, the doctors
> *were* mostly male and the nurses *were* mostly female. The perception
> grew from the stereotype, not vice versa.

Yes, I meant to put a "since" instead of "because" there.  Thank you.

> And in the in-many-ways-quite-archaic world of wizards, "doctor" might
> still be a term that is not medical. Or never used at all, since they do
> not seem to have an educational system after Hogwarts. We call doctors
> doctors because that's the title they get from their institutions after
> advanced study. Any Ph.D. or J.D. is a doctorate. It's an educational
> level, and the wizarding world thus far has not exhibited comparable
> further formal education levels.

Well, I can get behind not used as a medical term, but I assume that word
*is* present in one way or another.  I mean, with the prevalence of Latin
based words in this universe, it's hard to imagine these people simply not
using the word.  After all, the word merely means "learned one" (learned
man).  Anyway, when did the word doctor become so intimately related to a
physician that they had more or less became synonyms?

little Alex


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 04:04:07 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:04:07 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pomfrey and Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in particular
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103231223570.877-100000@er3.rutgers.edu> <3ABC0CBD.1B1BD444@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00a401c0b417$79e6f300$d211eda9@kwan>

No: HPFGUIDX 15052

Hello,

From: Amanda Lewanski <editor at texas.net>
> Why is being viewed as a leader so important? Why are you only important
> as a woman if you can be viewed favorably through a traditionally
> male-role lens? Why try to be female men, instead of very strong women
> doing what they want to do (which may be raising kids or being a school
> nurse)?

Oh, jesus, now we're into entirely another discussion.  Okay, we're in a
capitalistic society and those traditionally men-occupied jobs are the ones
that pay the most?  Raising kids is of course important; to ensure the
healthy growth of the future generation is the most important job of all.
But it's also doesn't pay the care-taker a dime; in fact, the care-taker
needs a *lot* of money to ensure the proper growth of the kids.  Now, where
is she supposed to find that money if not with a job?

little Alex




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat Mar 24 04:13:43 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 04:13:43 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <3ABC1091.843D5D7@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99h6tn+7pjh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15053

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > 
> Perhaps if we meet Hermione's mom? Or Hermione's dad? Or hear more 
about
> Lily so that Harry's Lily's son as much as he has been James? 
Remember
> that we're just over halfway through the whole work. This is from
> Harry's point of view, and Hermione's really the only female 
important
> enough to him to act as a "definer" yet.
> 
> --Amanda, a.k.a. Jan's wife, Kasia's mom, Tommy's sister, Catherine 
&
> Herb's daughter, Susan's sparring partner (it depends on where 
you're
> looking FROM, you see)

I've *always* defined Harry as Lily's son too. I think as he gets 
older he will begin to think about her maybe as much as he does his 
father.  It's just at the age he is, he tends to define himself along 
his father's lines. (if that made any sense at all) I also think that 
Harry notices Molly's actions quite a bit more than he does 
Arthur's.  It may be that when he's at the Burrow, he's just simply 
around Molly more.  She seems to be the strong one in that particular 
relationship--I tend to define Arthur as Molly's husband rather than 
the other way around. 

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Mar 24 04:17:20 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 04:17:20 -0000
Subject: D-day, was Re: Harry's Protective Barriers
In-Reply-To: <99aold+296n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99h74g+vqoi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15054

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., joym999 at a... wrote:
Doreen wrote:
> > I wonder why Harry was so special, but I think Dumbledore knows. 
> > I think there was some magical combination of elements from the  
> > start ... something that had to do with the very birth of 
Harry ... something that AD knows about and that Voldemort either 
knew or found out about via his spies. 
> 
> Joywitch:
> I have always thought this was the case and that Professor 
> Trelawney's first accurate prediction (made around the time of 
> Harry's birth) was that Harry would be the cause of Voldy's 
downfall.
> While my predictions made previous to GoF for what JKR was up to 
were totally wrong, this is one that I am convinced of.  I would even 
bet 10 gold galleons on it. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Exactly what I was thinking as well, Joywitch.  I've been 
thinking/wondering lately whether there may be another prediction or 
two by Trelawney that Dumble knows about, and is waiting to see if 
they come true.  Considering that when he made the 'second correct 
prediction' statement (can't recall the exact words), the first had 
to have been fufilled by that point so that Dumble would know that 
she had made another.  I'm guessing that the first was that baby 
Harry would cause Vold's first downfall, but what about the war that 
is coming?  If her second correct was that Vold was coming back, will 
she make another prediction in OoP (or 6 or 7) with more specifics 
about VWII?

Kelley





From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 04:28:52 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 23:28:52 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Spoilers for Schoolbooks can end
References: <3ABC01AE.88E99AF4@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <015001c0b41a$eef11420$10ccfea9@computer>

No: HPFGUIDX 15055

:(

I understand Penny!  Can we still put something in the subject line, though?
I can't afford my copies of the twosome until after April 1st....

(Crosses fingers...)

Dee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer" <pennylin at swbell.net>
To: "HPforGrownups" <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 9:08 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: Spoilers for Schoolbooks can end


> Hi --
>
> The Moderator Group has decided we can stop using spoiler space for the
> schoolbooks released 12 March (it's been nearly 2 wks).  So, effective
> tomorrow, feel free to eliminate spoiler space from any posts that
> relate to the schoolbooks.
>
> Penny
> The Mod Squad
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 05:01:17 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 05:01:17 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <99gga1+sbop@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99h9mt+o3b1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15056

Re: Kimberly's great comments about Molly Weasley

I agree! I think both Molly is even more underappreciated than 
McGonagall. As someone who intends to spend some time as a stay-at-
home mother someday, I certainly hope that role is not a 
disqualification for strong womanhood. In a house like the Weasleys' -
- almost all men, except for Ginny -- she'd have to be a strong 
woman. She's Ron's mother to be sure, but isn't that how you think of 
your friends' mothers when you're young? I know very few of my 
friends' mothers as people in their own right. Harry knows Molly 
better than I know most of my friends' mothers -- probably because 
she's the only mother-figure he's ever known.

Carl Jung (I'm doing a massive project on his concept of the 
collective unconscious right now) would say that Molly is a positive-
mother archetype (NOT the same thing as a stereotype). This is fine. 
We see her that way because that is how she is important to Harry. 
But, as Kimberly said (and I LOVED your phrasing), she and Arthur did 
not get those kids out of thin air. They are very obviously in love, 
and I'm guessing that a lot of what Arthur loves about her is her 
fire. She's a passionate woman -- rather tired, but after seven kids 
who wouldn't be? -- and she's also decisive and brave, as Kimberly 
said.

I'm loving this discussion!

Stacy




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Sat Mar 24 05:10:45 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 00:10:45 -0500
Subject: Penny Dredfule-HP Fanfic
References: <20010323220152.12963.qmail@web1201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ABC2C54.EEBBEDA3@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 15057


Hey Everyone!!!!!

I've been trying for some time to come up with a HPfnfic idea that I'd be happy with...and I think I've done it. I'm not sure how to post fan fiction, so I apologize if I'm not supposed to post it directly to the sight...

Hope you all enjoy part one of PENNY DREDFULE-THE DARK MUGLLE ARTS TEACHER

Jamieson


     One day, Penny woke to find herself looking into her cats eyes. Morris, her cat, had assumed a post on her chest, and was looking at her expectantly.
    "What?" she said. "Did I forget to feed you last night?"
      Her cat looked at her with that sort of "shows what you know" look, leaped off the bed, and went to sit in front of Penny's closet.
Once there, he began to mew uncontrollably.
     "What Morris? What is it baby?" And with that, Penny groaned, and dragged her tired thirty-three year old body out of bed. She went to where Morris was mewing, and looked down.
    There on the floor was what looked like a stick. Or more aptly, a wand. Odd, Penny though, never had one of those. I wonder  where it came from?
     Morris began to nudge it with his nose, and meowed up at Penny. "What, baby? Am I supposed to pick it up?" Morris purred at  her.
    Taking this as a 'yes', she picked it up. There was a note attached to it. It was written on old, yellowed parchment and was written in green ink. Wierd, thought Penny.
    Wierder still was what the note said. It read:

"Wave me around.    Albus."

    Penny read the note  several times over, which didn't take very long as there was little to read.
    Not being one to disbelieve the supernatural, or the bizzare, she did so. She closed her eyes and began flicking her wrist as if she were conducting a symphony of stringed intstruments. She heard cellos and violins, a few fiddles for good
measure. She opened her eyes.
    Morris had jumped into her arms, purring softly, and green sparkly dust was flowing out of the wand. It seemed to float in the air, falling on her hair and clothes. She studied it more closely. It was winding it's way around her and
Morris, spiraling it's way from head to toe, with Penny in the eye of it all.
    Penny heard a voice: "Just close your eyes, dear, it'll be over soon..."
    She did so, and the world went black.

*    *    *

    Penny opened her eyes.
    She saw before her a gorgeous room, with portraits of old people on the walls done in great detail, a jewel encrusted sowrd laying against a bookshelf filled to the brim with books; books with titles like: "Fantastic Beasts and Where to
Find Them", "Quidditch Through The Ages", "Magical Me" by Gilderoy Lockheart, and the list went on and on. Some of the other books looked quite old. One was called "Muggles, Who Are They?". It looked to be older than her, judging by the spine
of the book.
    There was also a roaring fire, with two comfortable overstuffed highback chairs in front of it, a perch beside the chair to the right. On that perch was a bird of fire.
    Penny remembered something from Philosophy class in high school (she shuddered inwardly) about the bird called a Pheonix. This must be one, surely, she thought. And in the centre of it all was a man.
    He was very old, with a pointed green hat, a long silver beard and silver hair. He had on half-moon spectecles and a happy grin. He was wearing robes of a deep gold, and they shone in the firelight.
    Penny noticed his eyes last. Those are the eyes of a powerful man, she thought.
    "Ah, Penny!" the man said, "you've come at last! I trust your trip was safe?"
    "Ah...duh?" Penny said. Not the most intelligent response, she thought.
    "Oh, yes, this is all a bit of a shock, isn't it? Sit down, sit down, let me explain. Sherbert lemon? They're quite good, aren't
they? Yes, hello Morris! And how are we, my pet? Good good, shall we begin Penny?"
    "Um....duh?"
    "Still shocked, I can see that. Never fear. Here goes: You are in Hogwarts my dear. The school for Witchcraft and
Wisardry, and I am Professor Dumbledore."
    "Ah. I had an aunt that came here. Aparently. I just thought she was making it all up."
    "Ah, yes, Hortencia! Quite a good Quidditch player, you know!"
    "A quiet ditch plaer?"
    "No, dear, Quidditch, but an explination of that will come later. Back to bussiness: We would like to offer you a position as a professor here. A coveted position at that. We would like you to be the Defense Against the Dark Arts
teacher!"
    "You mean like dark witchcraft, and that kind of thing?"
    "In a manner of speaking, yes."
    "But I don't know the first thing about magic! I'm not a witch! I'm a laywer for crying out loud!"
    "Ah, but you see, there comes the point! We would like someone to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts from a Muggle standpoint."
    "A who?"
    "Muggle."
    "And that is?"
    "A non-magic person."
    "Like me?"
    "Yes dear, like you."
    "Ah, I see."
    "At any rate, we feel that in a witch and wizards education, one must show them the Dark Arts from both sides. That is why we would like to have a Muggle teach the class, let the children know what exists as Dark Magic in the Muggle
world, for they must also prepare themselves for that."
    "But how am I going to teach without any supplies?"
    "Simple. Just think of any book you might need, wave your wand around and it will come to you."
    "Free?"
    "Well of course dear!" Albus laughed.
    "Wow," Penny said, "better than a bookstore!"
    "So, Penny, can we count you aboard?"
    "What will my title be?"
    "Why, that should be obvious, Penny! It would be Professor Dredfule!"

*    *    *



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sat Mar 24 05:28:11 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 00:28:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: The death of T. Manlius (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Percy)
In-Reply-To: <F6M6XQQez1enAqpfkNs00007cbf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103232346300.14301-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15058

On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Sofie 'Melle' Werkers wrote in HPFGU:

> It was a myth/legend about a Roman general leading an attack on a barbarian 
> city [something like that]. As they were camped outside the city, he had 
> expressly forbidden his men to go out and taunt the barbarians. One of his 
> officers disobeyed him, and was executed. The officer was the general's son.

In case anyone else has been wracking their memories trying to identify
this story (it took me all day...), Sofie's referring to the story of T.
Manlius, son of T. Manlius Torquatus (the one who killed the Gaul).  
During the war with the Latins, the Roman army had been ordered not to
engage in any conflicts with the enemy until the consuls approved it.  
T. Manlius, having been challenged by Geminus Maecius, the Tusculan
cavalry commander, engaged in a fight with him and killed him,
disobeying the order.  He went straight to his father's,telling him what
he had done, and his father ordered him put to death so that consular
authority would not be damaged (translation follows!):

'...meque in eam necessitatem adduxisti, ut aut rei publicae mihi aut
mei [meorum] obliuiscendum sit, nos potius nostro delicto plectemur quam
res publica tanto suo damno nostra peccata luat; triste exemplum sed in
posterum salubre iuuentuti erimus. me quidem cum ingenita caritas
liberum tum specimen istud uirtutis deceptum uana imagine decoris in te
mouet; sed cum aut morte tua sancienda sint consulum imperia aut
impunitate in perpetuum abroganda, nec te quidem, si quid in te nostri
sanguinis est, recusare censeam, quin disciplinam militarem culpa tua
prolapsam poena restituas -- i, lictor, deliga ad palum'.

'And [since] you have brought me to this necessity, that I must forget
either the republic or my kin, I would rather be punished for my own
offense than that the country pay for my sins with such a huge loss to
itself; I shall be a grim example, but yet a wholesome one, for the
youth of later generations.  I, indeed, am moved both by the natural
affection for one's children and by the evidence of courage, though that
deceived by an empty image of glory, in you; but since the commanding
authority of the consuls must either be made inviolable by your death or
annulled for all time by your lack of punishment, not even you, I would
think, would deny, if there is any of my blood in you, that you must
reinstate by your punishment that military discipline which fell into
ruin by your fault.  Go, lictor, bind him to the stake [to have his
head cut off]'. 

(See Livy 8.7-8 for the story; the passage I've quoted is from
8.8.  The text I've used is the one at the Latin Library,
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/liv.8.html#7, with my
translation.)

I really feel bad for Torquatus here; Livy dramatizes his dilemma, and
his almost impossible choice, so vividly...  he makes what is arguably
the 'right' choice, but at such personal cost... 

And in a moment of on-topicness, I think Percy would, like Torquatus,
expect a family member he rendered judgement against to agree with him
and the rightness of his decision if it was based on an 'impartial'
application of the rules.  

(Oh, and 'T.' stands for 'Titus', for anyone not familiar with Roman
naming conventions.)

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 06:01:07 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 06:01:07 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <3ABC013B.F86F3853@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99hd73+qsts@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15059

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> I think she has potential as a character.  But, I remain skeptical
> because I'm not convinced that JKR is heading that route.  I know 
she's
> said we'll see more of Ginny, but I think we all thought that would 
be
> true in GoF and it wasn't.  

We didn't see tons of Ginny in GoF, but what we did see, I think, was 
some simple, subtle character development that would be wasted if 
there was nothing more to come, and JKR is good at being vague when 
she wants to, so I don't think she'd need to resort to complete 
misdirection - if she didn't mean to develop Ginny further, she 
certainly wouldn't say she did, would she?  Maybe book 4 wasn't 
Ginny's, but I believe her time will come, and we will get to know 
the strong female character that's been under Harry's nose the whole 
time.  

It's my perception that if Ginny were going
> to be a key player, she would have more than a few lines in PoA & 
GoF.
> What was she -- number 29 in terms of lines/space according to that
> analysis someone posted earlier today?  That says alot to me.

Well, if the analysis had been done before GoF, going by that who'd 
have thought Dobby'd have any importance again?  He'd disappeaered 
completely in book 3 - not a single mention of him, but he came back 
and was important to the plot in GoF.  Sirius was only mentioned 
twice before PoA, and he's in the top 10 now, and Arthur Weasley went 
from a total of less than 100 in the first 3 books combined to 340 by 
the end of GoF.  There's no way I'd be willing to decide who's going 
to be key in the next book(s) other than, say, the trio Hagrid & 
Dumbledore, by who's gotten the most page time so far. 

> 
> BTW, whoever compiled that "lines/space" analysis deserves 200% on 
any
> HP obsessiveness quiz!!

Couldn't agree with you more - how handy to have such a reference!

kimberly





From winsome at peoplepc.com  Sat Mar 24 06:04:14 2001
From: winsome at peoplepc.com (Shannon Heisey)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:04:14 -0500
Subject: question for you all
Message-ID: <002e01c0b428$447ce060$e3343604@shannon>

No: HPFGUIDX 15060

Hi guys.  I've got a question for you all, and I want to know what you all
think.  We know that Professor Dumbledore asked Professor Snape to do
something, and we don't know what that is.  But we also know that Professor
Dumbledore asked Hagrid and Madame Maxime to undertake a job over the summer
too.  Do you think this mission may have something to do with what Professor
Dumbledore said to Cornelius Fudge about sending envoys to the giants?  Do
you think that Hagrid's task and Snape's task will be revealed as we get to
the fifth book?

Shannon




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 07:17:36 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 07:17:36 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <99gmko+sotn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99hhmg+9gou@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15061

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> > This thread has been interesting to me, as I tend to take 
> characters 
> > as they are.  I can't imagine, for example, Flitwick being a 
woman 
> or 
> > Trelawny being a man.  They're who they are.  By extension I 
can't 
> > imagine that, having created a Flitwick or a Trelawny (or any of 
> the 
> > other characters), an author would decide to scrap them in order 
to 
> > make room for a character of a different gender.  I guess it 
could 
> be 
> > argued that she should have created more of the characters as 
women 
> to 
> > begin with, but, well, do imaginations work that way?  If you 
want 
> to 
> > create a good, solid character, can you start with something 
> like "I 
> > need a woman, because I already have 3 men.", or for that 
matter "I 
> > need a person of X race, religion, orientation, physical trait, 
> etc. 
> > to balance it out."?  It seems like an artificial way to create a 
> > character.  
> > 
> >
> I can't write by formula.  The characters tend to spring, full-
blown, 
> into my subconscious, where they scream at me to let them out by 
> writing about them.  
> 
> IIRC, JKR has said in chats that Harry came to her much the same 
> way.  I don't think she would then say, OK, I need so many women, 
so 
> many men, etc.  
> 
> I find, too, that my characters won't let me have them do something 
> out of character (that sounds funny) either.
> 
> Peace & Plenty, 
> 
> Parker


Oh, well, we women will just have to understand therefore that we 
can only be 13% of the book..after all, it's the creative 
imagination....

Funny that it's never the other way around





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar 24 07:27:45 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 23:27:45 -0800
Subject: House Elves - Arithmancy - Snape - Draco - Sirius -  Wizarding Wealth 
Message-ID: <3ABC4C6F.D5A60CE8@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15062

Susan McGee wrote:
> The scene with Winky in the GoF is horrible. I wouldn't treat a dog
> or a cat the way Amos Diggory treats the House Elf.

Arthur and Amos are old friends, have known each other for years, have
been colleagues at MoM even tho' they now are not in the same
department. They're playing 'good cop / bad cop' with Winky, and might
have learned to do so when working as partners in some investigative arm
of MoM. You know 'good cop / bad cop' (which is also a useful technique
for a husband and wife to use on plumbers and so on)? One police officer
questions the suspect in a very hostile, degrading, threatening, scary
way. The other acts more humane, such as telling hiser partner "Back
off, you're scaring the kid" and speaking gently to the suspect "Take a
deep breath and calm down. I'm sure you'd like to tell me your side of
the story." In interrogations, the suspect psychologically clings to
'good cop' for protection from 'bad cop' and confesses to a lot more
than heesh intended to. I regret that this puts Arthur in a bad light.

When dealing with tradesmen, one woman I know boasted to us co-workers:
My husband is threatening the contractors with me! They completely
screwed up the new countertop, and they said to him, "Oh, it'll be okay
this way, won't it?" and he said "It looks fine to me, but I'm not sure
what my wife will think when she gets home from work and sees it," and
they thought to themselves "Oh, that poor bastard, married to such a
virago" and immediately said 'No problem, we'll take this one off and
put on a better one."

Amos, playing bad cop, addressed Winky as "Elf!". If the suspect had
been Hermione or Harry, he would have addressed them as something like
"Girl!" or "Punk!". (Dirty Harry -- "Do you feel lucky, punk?" -- who's
old enough to remember that?)

Vlatka wrote:
> I've always wondered about the Grammatica part. I think that it has
> something to do with writing (language) and rules, but don't know
> what the non-Muggle meaning could be. Any thoughts?

The Hebrew word 'gematria' was borrowed from the Greek word
'grammatica". Gematria is based on the fact that each Hebrew letter
stands for a number as well as for a phoneme -- the first ten letters
are the digits 1 thru 10, the next nine letters are 20 to 100 by tens,
and so on. Therefore, every written word has a numeric value. (Which is
why 15 is always written 9-6 TU instead of 1-5 YH because YH is too much
like the name of God.) Therefore, Bible study includes finding that two
words in the Bible both stand for the same number, and therefore the two
words must be related to each other, and that kind of stuff.

Vlatka wrote:
> Also, I wonder if anyone has tried to figure out the number and names
> of classes offered at Hogwarts. We know that both Percy and Barty Jr.
> have managed to get 12 OWLs, but when I tried to sum up the total
> number of classes  I also came up with 12 (Transfiguration, Charms,
> Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, Care for Magical Creatures, Potions,
> Astronomy, History of Magic, Muggle Studies, Herbology, DADA,
> Divination)

Perhaps there is more than one OWL for some subject areas:  we have
guessed that Ancient Runes includes magical languages, so there could be
supplemental OWLs for each important magical language. Maybe separate
OWLs for different millennia of History? An OWL for Magical Geography,
presumably taught in History of Magic class, as it has not been
mentioned in canon?

There could be more electives for more advanced (sixth and seventh year
students). Alchemy could be one of them. Basic Healing/Medimagic could
be one of them. What I call Amulet Making could be one of them: forget
what the dictionary says about an 'amulet' being a protective magic
(like carrying  your St. Christopher medal): in my Potterverse, all the
ordinary magic objects except broomsticks and wands are called
'amulets'. Like the Putter-Outer and the Quick-Quote Quill. (The bigger,
stronger magical objects, such as the Goblet of Fire and the Sorting
Hat, in my Potterverse are called Artifacts and made by Artificers.)

lsease wrote:
> I am not pro-Voldy but I just find this odd. Is Voldy sexist
> as well as generally evil?

I think yes. I think that Voldy's discomfort with women and desire to
have women be pushed around by their husbands comes from the same source
as his general desire to hurt and destroy and be feared (not
particularly USEFUL things to do with power, but what he wants): his
horrible childhood (acting, I'm sure, on an innate tendency to
psychopathy). He hates Muggles because his Muggle father didn't
acknowledge him, he hates women because the Matrons at the Muggle
orphanage were women, he hates everyone because most everyone is happier
than he is.

Jen Faulkner wrote:
> but that *no one* has a defining relationship with a woman.

Someone previously mentioned that Krum, the Bulgarian World Cup Seeker,
could be defined as Hermione's suitor. I suppose Hermione's parents
don't count, as we barely glimpse them. How about Professor Vector, the
Arithmancy witch, could be defined as Hermione's Arithmancy teacher? I'm
just nitpicking the *asterisks* in your quoted statement.

Magda Grantwich wrote:
> Has anyone noticed how fanatical Snape is in his reverence for
> Hogwarts?  Rules are everything. And he can come up with no worse
> punishment for Harry - who he loathes - than expulsion from
> Hogwarts: a fate he seems to regard as the equivalent of exile.

Snape's fanaticism for rules is similar, as many people mention in the
next two or three hundred posts, to Percy's reverence for rules, thus
raising the thought of Snape/Percy slash in my head. My friend said that
Snape should be paired with a Centaur because they are both obsessed
with 'good order' i.e. obeying the rules.

I keep wondering whether Snape really intended to do everything in his
power to have Harry expelled -- if Snape is on the side of Dumbledore
and the Light and knows that Dumbledore believes that Harry is necessary
for the triumph of the Light Side and that Harry must be kept at
Hogwarts to be kept safe, would Snape want to cast Harry out into danger
that would ruin Dumbledore's plan and does he really believe that he
could persuade Dumbledore to do so?

Doreen wrote:
> Why does he also antagonize Hermione, who is striving to be THE
> Hogwarts prize pupil?

I keep trying to understand that, myself. The best I can guess is that
he got angry at Hermione for interfering with his attempt to humiliate
Harry at the first Potions lesson, and then he took out his anger on her
long enough for her to form a dislike of him, after which he is
responding to her dislike of him.

Magda Grantwich wrote:
> And how about another father figure relationship: Snape and Draco?
> What do they talk about when they're alone and Draco has finished
> whining about Harry?

GOOD question.
Intellectual pursuits... Literature: in my fic, I have them recognizing
all of each other's literary references.  Potions and potion-makers: in
my fic, I have Draco coming into Snape's office hours to ask intelligent
questions, being given answers and books to read, and coming back to be
grilled about what he read. Something so that Snape can say sarcastic
things to Draco that they both recognize as affectionate... I doubt that
Severus would speak of his pain at being trumped by Potter and Black
while conversing with a student, even Draco, during his office hours.
Not revealing to Draco his low opinion of Quidditch.

Kimberly wrote:
> convinced that Draco doesn't get by on his sparkling
> personality alone.

Well, as a devotee of fanon Draco, I have to believe that canon Draco is
handsome, wittily sarcastic, and good at his school work as well as at
Quidditch (he must be good at Quidditch, as in PoA he won three out of
four matches, and Harry only beat him because of having a Firebolt), but
I feel compelled to play Devil's Advocate: Draco doesn't need looks OR
charm or very much intelligence or Quidditch ability to get Slytherin
girlfriends and hangers-on: he has money and his family has power, so
being his friend (or wife!) would be a useful means to many Slytherin
ends.

Suzanne wrote:
> His father, after all, is NOT among the most favored of the
> Deatheaters since he took the easy way out and avoided Azkaban.

In the Death Eater circle in the graveyard in GoF, we see Voldemort
speaking to Lucius like Lucius is still teacher's, I mean Dark Lord's,
pet. Calling him by first name, praising him for still carrying on the
old ways secretly in his home, and not punishing him at all for
desertion, despite punishing some of the others. If the Death Eaters
still love or fear Voldemort, they will be damn cautious about doing
things to harm the Dark Lord's favorite minion.

Magda Grantwich wrote:
> Snape (snip) had no friends in school.

We have it from canon that he hung out with a group of Slytherins who
all became Death Eaters: Evan Rozier, Wilkes, Avery, Lestrange, Mrs.
Lestrange. I'm sure the girl wasn't named Mrs. Lestrange while she was a
schoolkid, but we weren't supplied with her first or maiden name.

We call MWPP the Marauders altho' the evidence in canon is that the map
was labelled "Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs, Purveyors of
Aids to Magical Mischief-Makers are proud to present THE MARAUDER'S
MAP". From that, they could just as well have called themselves Magical
Mischief Makers (as they did in the fic series wherein Sirius married
Jenny) or some other name altogether. Thus, I was free to invent that
the Marauders declared Lily to be the Marauder Mascot (probably giving
her an excessively tight scarlet t-shirt with Marauder Mascot written on
the front). Thus, I imagine that they gave Snape's gang some nasty name,
such as the Slimeballs, and declared the future Mrs Lestrange to be the
Slimeball Mascot. Presumably, if the Slytherin gang (I imagine that it
wasn't the most prestigious gang in Slytherin House, either. Poor
Severus) gave itself a less unflattering name.

Amy Z wrote:
> The latter is just Harry's naivete speaking.  Crabbe and Goyle
> obviously have dates for the Ball--each other.  ;-)

You-uns all know that I am no enemy of slash, but I think Vinnie and
Greggie only mess around together for lack of anyone else to mess around
with -- and that they do have someone else to mess around with fairly
often: I am a Millicent / Crabbe-Goyle shipper. They appear to be at the
ball without dates because they're BOTH escorting Millicent, but can't
both dance with her at once.

Celeste Chang wrote:
> As a girl, Harr-ieta  (haha) might (snip) develop some cozy
> feelings for Draco once those hormones get flowing...

There is a TON of fanfic on the idea that he could develop those tender
feelings for Draco despite being a boy.

MC Crusty wrote:
> Hufflepuffs are thought of as "a lot of duffers", so I
> can't imagine someone like Lucius Malfoy being okay
> with that kind of romance.

Isn't it nice for a go-getting Slytherin to have a nice, loyal, patient,
hard-working Hufflepuff keeping the home fires burning and taking care
of himer?

Eccleston wrote:
> the daughter of a weight lifter in English
> comics 30 years ago - " Pansy Potter -

Potter! Harry would have nightmares if he heard that!

Monika wrote:
> What made people believe that Sirius was
> so powerful a wizard? I still don't get it...

We have been told that Sirius and James were the cleverest students in
the school. That was from their friend Remus, but their teacher
McGonagall said: "Both very bright, of course -- exceptionally bright,
in fact". We know that they have strong magic powers, not just book
learning, because they became Animagi as fifth year students, and I'm
sure their teachers noticed their powerful magic as well as their
brains. Having inborn powerful magic and having been exceptionally
bright at the training program is enough to be a powerful wizard even at
a young age.

Sofie "Melle" signed off with:
> - I could offer you a power beyond your wildest imagination, Potter.
> - I don't want that kind of power.
> - You're just afraid of it.

Wow! I can just hear it in their voices! Please write the story that it
goes in -- Harry doesn't have much place in my Draco story.

gregg_baeckler wrote:
> Why on earth are they all in Gryffindor??  I understand that they are
> all brave, but I would be hard pressed to list bravery before
> academic talent as Hermione's chief virtue.

It appears that the Hat takes into consideration which House the student
WANTS to be in. We heard Harry telling it 'not Slytherin'.

We heard Hermione saying on the train that she hoped to be in
Gryffindor. She said: "Do either of you know what house you'll be in?
I've been asking around, and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far
the best; I hear Dumbledore himself was in it, but I suppose Ravenclaw
wouldn't be too bad.... Anyway, we'd better go and look for Neville's
toad. You two had better change, you know, I expect we'll be there
soon."

Also on the train, Ron said all his brothers had been in Gryffindor and
"Mom
and Dad were in it, too. I don't know what they'll say if I'm not. I
don't suppose Ravenclaw would be too bad, but imagine if they put me in
Slytherin.".

In the robe shop, we heard Draco saying he counted on being in
Slytherin.

Amanda wrote:
> Well, it depends on how you define "aristocrat." If it is someone
coming
> from a long, established, honored lineage, we already have---Ron and
> Neville, both. If you mean somebody rich, I don't know that we have
yet.

The Potters were rich with inherited wealth. JKR said in chats that
James and Lily didn't need to work for money because James had inherited
plenty of money, and also said that James had inherited the Invisibility
Cloak.

Kensey Joseph wrote:
> 3> Is Quidditch a truly universal game in the wizarding world? Not
> everybody would use brooms for transport, would they? (snip)
> 4> The question of who would play Quidditch led me to another question
-
>  what would the poorest classes in the wizarding world be like? JKR
has
> often depicted the Weasleys as being impoverished - but somehow people

> with three square meals a day and a roof over their head (not to
mention a
> garage and a flying car!) could hardly be the dregs of wizarding
society.
> If Quidditch were the most popular game in the wizarding world - then
> there might not be a basic-existence-level class at all.

So far I have only SKIMMED my QUIDDITCH THROUGH THE AGES. If I read it
correctly, JKR said that Quidditch is the most popular wizarding sport
everywhere except USA, even tho' not every nation uses broomsticks for
transportation. Long, long ago, I was whining about Quidditch being such
an expensive game -- at Hogwarts it's not fair to the less wealthy
students like Ron Weasley who can't afford to buy a top of the line
racing broomstick. And it wouldn't, couldn't, be popular in a poor
wizarding country (as you said!). My current theory is there are no poor
wizarding countries and no destitute people in wizarding society (except
maybe werewolves and half-giants?) -- I now believe that in wizarding
Britain, the MoM pays a stipend to every adult witch and wizard (not to
children, or the Weasleys wouldn't have money troubles -- the children
get free tuition to Hogwarts instead); some of them also have inherited
wealth and some of them also have jobs. The salaries would be for people
who want more in their life-style than the three square meals a day and
roof over their heads provided by the stipend. MoM might get the money
for the stipends by making it by magic (some powerful magic that
ordinary people can't do on their own, or Ron would be trying to), or
from owning valuable gemstone mines, or from being paid by the Muggle
government to stay hidden or to provide an Anti-Missile Shield or to
fight off the vampires and monsters who would prey on Muggles... The
International Confederation of Wizards might collect the payments from
all Muggle governments and big corporations and distribute among all the
Ministries of Magic, so that poor Muggle countries wouldn't have to be
poor wizarding countries.

Rena said:
> If memory serves me right, this would be April 30th. Or does
> Walpurgis Night coincide with Halloween?

Your memory is right: Walpurga's Night is the Eve of May Day (Beltane).
The witches and wizards dancing around a bonfire and going into the
woods to gather May flowers to decorate themselves and the May Pole (and
NOT having children with surnames Mayfield and Greenwood nine months
later because THEY have Contraceptive Charms) are just celebrating
Spring the same way that Muggles used to before they got television
instead.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 07:41:30 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 07:41:30 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <00f101c0b3ab$b87db700$65878cac@shelley>
Message-ID: <99hj3a+cqm6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15063

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rina Stewart" <rina at l...> wrote:
> Jen wrote:
> 
> <<(Quickly contrasting the top ten, I would say that Ron, Hagrid,
> Dumbledore, Snape, Draco, Sirius, Remus, and Fred are all easily 
defined
> without any relation to a woman.)>>
> 
> Just playing a quick devil's advocate. 

But why would you want to be argumentative for the argument's sake...

Would you disagree that women have historically been defined by their 
relationship with men (mother, daughter, wife, etc.), but that men 
have not?

Susan




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Mar 24 07:43:20 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:43:20 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
Message-ID: <009501c0b436$19428f40$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15064

Schlobin wrote:

<<Oh, well, we women will just have to understand therefore that we 
can only be 13% of the book..after all, it's the creative 
imagination....

Funny that it's never the other way around>>

I agree 100% with Parker. The characters are who they are. I've found that stories don't "behave" right until the characters are given their correct names, even. When they're correct, they fit perfectly. It's the same with gender and personality. If you change them from what you imagine them to be, it's never going to be real, for you or the audience. It's awkward, and stilted, because it's wrong.

And really? I was just reading the Anne of Green Gables books over break. That's mostly women. Belwether by Connie Willis. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. Ramona Quimby. All mostly women. Geared towards girls? Possibly the latter two, but I know of boys who enjoyed them. It's definitely not unheard of. 

I don't believe the books would be the same if male characters were turned female merely to create a "balance." I like the female characters that we have, I like the male characters that we have. I wouldn't want any of them to change in any way, just because some people want gender balance. When it comes down to it, this is JKR's world. These are the people who live there, and these are the ones Harry knows and interacts with. I'm sure he'll interact with more women in the future, and that's great. But until then, I am very pleased with the "13%" strong women we've met so far.

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 07:48:37 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 07:48:37 -0000
Subject: Pomfrey and Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in particular
In-Reply-To: <3ABC0CBD.1B1BD444@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99hjgl+u685@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15065

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Jen Faulkner wrote:
> 
> > Nonetheless, her [Pomfrey's] role is portrayed as a reactive, 
rather
> > than proactive, one.  She never initiates action, but merely 
responds
> > to others' actions.
> 
> Not to muddy the waters, but I think there's some confusion here 
between
> her job and her personality. Medical personnel in 99% of cases are
> responding to medical conditions or needs; they don't go out and get
> their patients like aggressive shoe salesmen. And in the practice 
of her
> job, she's pretty aggressive about how she does it and who can do 
what
> and where, etc.
> 
> >  She is a caretaker, the quintessentially feminine
> > role.  And in CoS, she can't do a thing to help the petrified
> > students, but simply has to wait until the mandrakes are grown up
> > enough to be used.
> 
> *Everyone* has to wait until they're grown up. *Nobody* can help the
> students, Dumbledore included. This isn't a failure or fault of 
hers.
> This is simply the situation, regardless of the gender of the 
person in
> charge of the hospital wing.
> 
> >  No society can get along without women, obviously, but it *can* 
get
> > along without viewing them as leaders.
> 
> Why is being viewed as a leader so important? Why are you only 
important
> as a woman if you can be viewed favorably through a traditionally
> male-role lens? Why try to be female men, instead of very strong 
women
> doing what they want to do (which may be raising kids or being a 
school
> nurse)?
> 
> --Amanda

Amanda, I don't get it.

A leader should be a leader -- either male or female.

What you are saying here is that only men can be leaders. 
That women who want to be leaders are trying to be men....

I just don't agree.

For example, in Native American societies, such as the Hopi, many of 
the leaders were women.

Being a leader is an important role that can be filled by either a 
man or a woman successfully. 

Raising kids is an important role. I hope that both men and women can 
embrace this role.

Nurturing is an important role that I hope both men and women can 
embrace...

But why would you say that a leader is a "female man"?

Susan




> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Mar 24 07:48:08 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:48:08 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
Message-ID: <00a001c0b436$c47af500$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15066

Susan wrote:

<<But why would you want to be argumentative for the argument's sake...>>

Why shouldn't I? There's nothing wrong with a good debate. 

<<Would you disagree that women have historically been defined by their 
relationship with men (mother, daughter, wife, etc.), but that men 
have not?>>

No. Why would I do that? All I was saying is that both men and women in this series are defined by their relationship to men. For every women defined by a man, there's a man defined by a man. I don't find anything wrong with that. I don't consider the books sexist, no matter what the ratio is. I look at the personalies of all involved, and to me, Hermione is worth 10 Fudges. 

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 07:52:18 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 07:52:18 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <99h6tn+7pjh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99hjni+dm6g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15067

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., pbnesbit at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > > 
> > Perhaps if we meet Hermione's mom? Or Hermione's dad? Or hear 
more 
> about
> > Lily so that Harry's Lily's son as much as he has been James? 
> Remember
> > that we're just over halfway through the whole work. This is from
> > Harry's point of view, and Hermione's really the only female 
> important
> > enough to him to act as a "definer" yet.
> > 
> > --Amanda, a.k.a. Jan's wife, Kasia's mom, Tommy's sister, 
Catherine 
> &
> > Herb's daughter, Susan's sparring partner (it depends on where 
> you're
> > looking FROM, you see)


Sure, and I am very fond of you and Neil and Penny...and Penny for 
gosh sakes don't take this wrong, but you're all beginning to sound 
very lame about how the only argument is to take it from Harry's 
adolescent boy point of view...

Susan




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Mar 24 07:54:15 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:54:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pomfrey and Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in particular
Message-ID: <00aa01c0b437$9fca2540$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15068

Amanda wrote: Why is being viewed as a leader so important? Why are you only 
important> as a woman if you can be viewed favorably through a traditionally
> male-role lens? Why try to be female men, instead of very strong 
women> doing what they want to do (which may be raising kids or being a 
school> nurse)?
> 

Susan responded: 
<<But why would you say that a leader is a "female man"?>>

I don't think that was what she was getting at. I could be wrong, of course, but this is my take on it - you don't have to be a leader to be a strong woman. You can be a strong woman, a strong character, and be a mom. Molly Weasley is a strong woman character, but she's not a headmaster or minister of magic. She doesn't need to be, she's strong on her own. It seems like people are saying that the women in HP aren't strong because they're not in positions of leadership, but I disagree. They are strong because of who they are, not what their job is, and that's the bottom line, IMO.

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Mar 24 07:57:20 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:57:20 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
Message-ID: <00b401c0b438$0de42e40$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15069

Susan wrote:

<<Sure, and I am very fond of you and Neil and Penny...and Penny for 
gosh sakes don't take this wrong, but you're all beginning to sound 
very lame about how the only argument is to take it from Harry's 
adolescent boy point of view...>>

I don't think it's the only argument, but it's certainly valid. The stories would be immensely different from Ron or Hermione's POVs. We would know different characters in different ways. We would see the world through their eyes. Right now we see it through Harry, who is a fourteen year old boy. He's not going to notice the same things Hermione would, or even Ron for that matter. The books are in third person limited, yes? We know only what Harry is thinking, know what Harry knows. So of course we get a biased view on everything.

Rina 
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 08:16:10 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 08:16:10 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women/victims
In-Reply-To: <00a001c0b436$c47af500$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <99hl4a+q7rm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15070

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rina Stewart" <rina at l...> wrote:
> Susan wrote:
> 
> <<But why would you want to be argumentative for the argument's 
sake...>>
> 
> Why shouldn't I? There's nothing wrong with a good debate.

Sure. except that argument for argument's sake is pointless..

 
> 
> <<Would you disagree that women have historically been defined by 
their 
> relationship with men (mother, daughter, wife, etc.), but that men 
> have not?>>
> 
> No. Why would I do that? All I was saying is that both men and 
women in this series are defined by their relationship to men. For 
every women defined by a man, there's a man defined by a man. 


Well, we have a profound disagreement. In my opinion, women should be 
valued as women, not in relationship to men.

I love these books, and think that JKR is phenomenal. I think if she 
read some of the analysis she would rethink some of her assumptions.
I believe that because I admire and respect her. Her books have depth 
and texture and analysis. 

I believe that because she has created Hermione, and many other 
female characters, that she believes she has not favored men in her 
books. If she saw our comments and the analysis that essentially only 
13% of the books are about women, she would take a deep breath and 
reconsider. She IS brilliant. 

My guess is that although she might have "bristled" at criticism that 
there are not enough strong women, she probably rethought the whole 
thing. I would conjecture that that might be the reason that she made 
the next DADA professor a woman. I have tremendous faith in her and 
respect for her. 

I also think that everyone will be influenced by Maggie 
Smith's portrayal of Professor McGonagall INCLUDING JKR. She is 
actively anticipating the movie and I think her imagination will be 
colored. 

I too thought Maggie Smith/Richard Harris were perhaps a tad aged 
until I saw the JKR interview where she discussed how old they were...
it's quite fascinating..that these old folks have such an active 
relationship with young people 11 - 18. I think it's great.

I too really like Molly and Ginny Weasley. I hope that JKR will round 
out their potential. 

I am troubled by the threads that dismiss Ginny Weasley as a "victim".
Unfortunately, women and girls are victims of child sexual abuse, 
adult sexual abuse, adult battering, largely by men through no fault 
of their own. 

Dumbledore is quite clear (and therefore JKR is quite clear) that 
adult wizards and witches have been fooled by Voldemort and that 
Ginny is not to blame because she has been victimized. There is 
nothing about her character or personality that causes her to be 
victimized.

In fact, she was picked by Lucius Malfoy as a victim because she is 
the daughter of Arthur and Molly Weasley who are active combatants
against Voldemort/Malfoy and their allows. If they had not been 
effective enemies of Riddle/Voldmort/Malfoy, Malfoy would not have 
bothered. Lucius Malfoy maliciously set up Ginny Weasley to discredit 
her parents. 

I think that characterizing her as a 'victim'is essentially victim 
blaming. She did not choose to be targeted by Voldemort and she did 
her best to resist.

how do we compare neville longbottom with ginny weasley? 
Some are characterizing ginny as a "victim", but not neville.
why not? might it have to do with ...gulp..gender?

susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 08:25:26 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 08:25:26 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women/victims
In-Reply-To: <00a001c0b436$c47af500$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <99hllm+oihp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15071

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rina Stewart" <rina at l...> wrote:
> Susan wrote:
> 
> <<But why would you want to be argumentative for the argument's 
sake...>>
> 
> Why shouldn't I? There's nothing wrong with a good debate.

Sure. except that argument for argument's sake is pointless..

 
> 
> <<Would you disagree that women have historically been defined by 
their 
> relationship with men (mother, daughter, wife, etc.), but that men 
> have not?>>
> 
> No. Why would I do that? All I was saying is that both men and 
women in this series are defined by their relationship to men. For 
every women defined by a man, there's a man defined by a man. 


Well, we have a profound disagreement. In my opinion, women should be 
valued as women, not in relationship to men.

I love these books, and think that JKR is phenomenal. I think if she 
read some of the analysis she would rethink some of her assumptions.
I believe that because I admire and respect her. Her books have depth 
and texture and analysis. 

I believe that because she has created Hermione, and many other 
female characters, that she believes she has not favored men in her 
books. If she saw our comments and the analysis that essentially only 
13% of the books are about women, she would take a deep breath and 
reconsider. She IS brilliant. 

My guess is that although she might have "bristled" at criticism that 
there are not enough strong women, she probably rethought the whole 
thing. I would conjecture that that might be the reason that she made 
the next DADA professor a woman. I have tremendous faith in her and 
respect for her. 

I also think that everyone will be influenced by Maggie 
Smith's portrayal of Professor McGonagall INCLUDING JKR. She is 
actively anticipating the movie and I think her imagination will be 
colored. 

I too thought Maggie Smith/Richard Harris were perhaps a tad aged 
until I saw the JKR interview where she discussed how old they were...
it's quite fascinating..that these old folks have such an active 
relationship with young people 11 - 18. I think it's great.

I too really like Molly and Ginny Weasley. I hope that JKR will round 
out their potential. 

I am troubled by the threads that dismiss Ginny Weasley as a "victim".
Unfortunately, women and girls are victims of child sexual abuse, 
adult sexual abuse, adult battering, largely by men through no fault 
of their own. 

Dumbledore is quite clear (and therefore JKR is quite clear) that 
adult wizards and witches have been fooled by Voldemort and that 
Ginny is not to blame because she has been victimized. There is 
nothing about her character or personality that causes her to be 
victimized.

In fact, she was picked by Lucius Malfoy as a victim because she is 
the daughter of Arthur and Molly Weasley who are active combatants
against Voldemort/Malfoy and their allows. If they had not been 
effective enemies of Riddle/Voldmort/Malfoy, Malfoy would not have 
bothered. Lucius Malfoy maliciously set up Ginny Weasley to discredit 
her parents. 

I think that characterizing her as a 'victim'is essentially victim 
blaming. She did not choose to be targeted by Voldemort and she did 
her best to resist.

how do we compare neville longbottom with ginny weasley? 
Some are characterizing ginny as a "victim", but not neville.
why not? might it have to do with ...gulp..gender?

I am also troubled that those who cannot imagine Harry as a girl talk 
about "cat fights"...fights between girls as somehow trivial and 
stupid, yet fights among boys, or Hermione slapping Draco are somehow 
more important and noble than fights between girls and women...does 
this make sense?

If we as a society, and we as individuals were truly 'gender neutral' 
and we are not, than Harry as a girl (trivialized as harriet by some)
would not be a wrench, or a jolt, or incomprehensible, or strange, orw
weird.....

Susan

susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 08:29:29 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 08:29:29 -0000
Subject: Pomfrey and Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in particular
In-Reply-To: <00aa01c0b437$9fca2540$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <99hlt9+j9vd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15072

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rina Stewart" <rina at l...> wrote:
> Amanda wrote: Why is being viewed as a leader so important? Why are 
you only 
> important> as a woman if you can be viewed favorably through a 
traditionally
> > male-role lens? Why try to be female men, instead of very strong 
> women> doing what they want to do (which may be raising kids or 
being a 
> school> nurse)?
> > 
> 
> Susan responded: 
> <<But why would you say that a leader is a "female man"?>>
> 
> I don't think that was what she was getting at. I could be wrong, 
of course, but this is my take on it - you don't have to be a leader 
to be a strong woman. You can be a strong woman, a strong character, 
and be a mom. Molly Weasley is a strong woman character, but she's 
not a headmaster or minister of magic. She doesn't need to be, she's 
strong on her own. 

Susan says: I would agree.. Molly is a strong woman and she is not a 
leader..

It seems like people are saying that the women in HP aren't strong 
because they're not in positions of leadership, but I disagree.

Susan says: I would agree, too. There are strong women in HP. There 
are not women in leadership. That doesn't mean that the women in HP 
who are not in leadership are not strong.

 They are strong because of who they are, not what their job is, and 
that's the bottom line, IMO.
> 
> Rina


Absolutely, that's one bottom line.

But why are all the leaders men? That's another bottom line.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 08:40:51 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 08:40:51 -0000
Subject: A bit more Pomfrey (was Gender balance/strong women Madam Pomfrey in  particular)
In-Reply-To: <3ABC0F51.E5AA3850@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99hmij+9g33@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15073

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> "Alexandra Y. Kwan" wrote:
> 
> > The stereotype has always been that the doctors are
> > male and nurses female, because doctors are seen as
> > more important than nurses.
> 
> No, the stereotype has been that way because until recently, the 
doctors
> *were* mostly male and the nurses *were* mostly female. The 
perception
> grew from the stereotype, not vice versa.
> 
> >  Although a school
> > presumably doesn't need a doctor, by having the school
> > nurse as female, the book is conforming to stereotypes
> > that had been in our culture for at least half a
> > century.
> 
> I think it might simply be that when the medical director at a 
school is
> female, she'll tend to be called "school nurse." Pomfrey does
> significantly more than your average school nurse. Most schools 
don't
> have entire hospital wings. Most school nurses don't spit fire the 
way
> she does--she's nothing less than didactic on her own turf--quite a
> strong woman indeed, when she's speaking as a professional in her 
field.
> 
> And in the in-many-ways-quite-archaic world of wizards, "doctor" 
might
> still be a term that is not medical. Or never used at all, since 
they do
> not seem to have an educational system after Hogwarts. We call 
doctors
> doctors because that's the title they get from their institutions 
after
> advanced study. Any Ph.D. or J.D. is a doctorate. It's an 
educational
> level, and the wizarding world thus far has not exhibited comparable
> further formal education levels.
> 
> In fact, the wizarding world reminds me strongly (in the matter of
> research and inquiry and "experts") of the great 'age of 
naturalists,'
> the late eighteenth to late nineteenth centuries, when the 
contributions
> of self-educated laymen were vital to several disciplines.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Sorry, no.

The history of the medical profession is long ago, wise women were 
healers. 

Doctors came along and took over. Until recently (30 years ago) 95% 
of doctors were men. Women who were interested in being health care 
professionals got slotted into the nursing profession..which in 
itself is great and wonderful.

Today at the University of Michigan Medical School, they are 
congratulating themselves because 20 - 25% of their students are 
women.
More than 50% are the children and grandchildren of physicians.

Susan
were slotted to being nurses.




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar 24 08:41:29 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 02:41:29 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] question for you all Hagrid, Maxime, & Snape
References: <002e01c0b428$447ce060$e3343604@shannon>
Message-ID: <01db01c0b43e$39795980$5514a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15074

Do you think this mission may have something to do with what Professor
Dumbledore said to Cornelius Fudge about sending envoys to the giants?  Do
you think that Hagrid's task and Snape's task will be revealed as we get to
the fifth book?

Shannon
******************************
I think he is sending Hagrid & Madam Maxime to convince the Giants that they
need to join with Dumbledore & co. against Voldemort, before Voldemort gets
them to join his side.
I also think that Dumbledore sent Snape to rejoin Voldemort, as a Death
Eater, and as Dumbledore's spy. Snape is willing, out of respect & adoration
for AD, but he is reluctant, out of fear & hatred of Voldemort.
Doreen
********************************





From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 09:00:00 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:00:00 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women/victims
References: <99hl4a+q7rm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017501c0b440$cfc0ce80$d211eda9@kwan>

No: HPFGUIDX 15075

Hello,

From: <Schlobin at aol.com>
> Sure. except that argument for argument's sake is pointless..

Sometimes.  Other times it's also very fun.  Why else would people join
debate teams?

> > No. Why would I do that? All I was saying is that both men and
> women in this series are defined by their relationship to men. For
> every women defined by a man, there's a man defined by a man.

So?  Why shouldn't we have a equal share of men defined by women and women
defined by men?  Or more numbers of women defined by women?  You're mixing
two arguements together.  The point isn't only women are defined by men, the
point is all characters are defined only by men.  And the question remains,
why only by men?

> Well, we have a profound disagreement. In my opinion, women should be
> valued as women, not in relationship to men.

Thank you!

> I believe that because she has created Hermione, and many other
> female characters, that she believes she has not favored men in her
> books. If she saw our comments and the analysis that essentially only
> 13% of the books are about women, she would take a deep breath and
> reconsider. She IS brilliant.

I absolutely agree that she's brilliant, but as someone living in the
current society, we are all indoctrinated by male/female gender roles.  The
indoctrination usually begins so young and is thusly so deep that most of
the time, we ourselves are not aware of it.  I believe that JKR might have a
few lingering thread of such indoctrination.  But since she's so brilliant--

> My guess is that although she might have "bristled" at criticism that
> there are not enough strong women, she probably rethought the whole
> thing. I would conjecture that that might be the reason that she made
> the next DADA professor a woman. I have tremendous faith in her and
> respect for her.

My view *exactly*.

> [snip Prof. McGongall (sp) and the her actress]
I will wait till the movie before making any comments about it.

> [snip about Ginny]
> how do we compare neville longbottom with ginny weasley?
> Some are characterizing ginny as a "victim", but not neville.
> why not? might it have to do with ...gulp..gender?

Strangely, I have always had the general impression that Ginny is a way
stronger person than Neville <g>.

little Alex




From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 12:53:21 2001
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:53:21 +0100
Subject: Lily's friend - Snape's grudge
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010324133537.00a06d60@rudjer.irb.hr>

No: HPFGUIDX 15076

Rina wrote:

>What I'd like to see is if this next DADA teacher, or a future one, was 
>Lily's best friend. It would be a fun way to learn about Lily, and get a 
>new perspective on James and co.


Yes! :) That has been my favorite scenario ever since I found out about the 
female DADA teacher.

Catlady wrote:

>I keep wondering whether Snape really intended to do everything in his
>power to have Harry expelled -- if Snape is on the side of Dumbledore
>and the Light and knows that Dumbledore believes that Harry is necessary
>for the triumph of the Light Side and that Harry must be kept at
>Hogwarts to be kept safe, would Snape want to cast Harry out into danger
>that would ruin Dumbledore's plan and does he really believe that he
>could persuade Dumbledore to do so?


Not really an answer to Catlady's question, but why didn't teenage Snape 
push to get Sirius expelled. He could have, he certainly believed that 
Sirius attempted to kill him through that "prank". I'm not saying that he 
would have succeeded, but he certainly was in position to make some big 
trouble for Sirius, and he could have destroyed Remus as well.
So, why didn't he? Was he in fact more grateful to James at the time than 
he would like to admit now? Or maybe he tried, but Dumbledore quashed it 
[because of Remus] and Snape did not have anyone outside the school to turn 
to [a problem that Draco certainly does not have]. Or maybe he just isn't a 
vindictive king of guy. <g>

Vlatka

PS. Thanks to Catlady for recommending Peg Kerr's essays. I enjoyed them 
immensely.




"I think it would have been a much more interesting romance if he had 
assassinated the lout for her."
-- Lord Mark Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign by Lois McMaster Bujold

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Mar 24 13:39:23 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 07:39:23 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Keep Gender Discussions On-Topic or move to OT-Chatter
Message-ID: <3ABCA38B.24D21395@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15077

Hi everyone --

I'm enjoying these discussions of gender in relation to the HP books as
much as anyone, but please take a moment to consider your responses to
various threads.  If there's not a single *substantive* (i.e., not just
a throw-away drop-in mention so you can post it to the main group)
mention of JKR or the HP books in your message, it *must* go to
OT-Chatter.  I assure you that there are plenty of the participants in
this great gender debate over on OT-Chatter, so your response will not
fall on deaf ears over there.  :--)

If you've not already done so, please read the following documents in
our Files section:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPfGU-OTChatter.txt

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPfGU-Announcements.txt

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-shorthand.htm

Thanks,

Penny
The Moderator Team





From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Mar 24 13:58:33 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 07:58:33 -0600
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
References: <99hjgl+u685@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABCA809.1634A0A0@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15078

Hi --

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> Sure, and I am very fond of you and Neil and Penny...and Penny for
> gosh sakes don't take this wrong, but you're all beginning to sound
> very lame about how the only argument is to take it from Harry's
> adolescent boy point of view...
>
I've never said the *only* argument is to look at Harry's POV, Susan.
I've merely pointed out that it is *a* valid argument, and it's a strong
argument at that.  And, it's an argument that you seem willing to ignore
completely.

> Rina said: > No. Why would I do that? All I was saying is that both men and
> women in this series are defined by their relationship to men. For
> every women defined by a man, there's a man defined by a man.
>
> Susan responded: Well, we have a profound disagreement. In my opinion, women should be
> valued as women, not in relationship to men.
>
Rina made a point specific to the HP series.  Susan -- your response it
to make it a generalization, which misses Rina's point entirely.  Look
at the quoted text above.  She says *in this series.*  I doubt that Rina
would disagree with your statement at all.  But, your statement doesn't
address *her* argument.  I agree with Rina: you can argue effectively
that in the HP series there are as many men defined by other men as
there are women defined by men.


> I am troubled by the threads that dismiss Ginny Weasley as a "victim".
> Unfortunately, women and girls are victims of child sexual abuse,
> adult sexual abuse, adult battering, largely by men through no fault
> of their own.
>
I have noted that Ginny is a victim.  *However*, my argument is not that
she is in general a victim.  Her main role in CoS, however, is as a
victim (IMO).  She doesn't IMO have much more to offer the plot than
that.  She is essentially a plot device for that particular book.  In
PS/SS, I see her as just Ron's whiny little sister, who has minimal
lines.  In PoA, we're back to Ginny as very very much a background
character.  She's not a victim in PoA; she's just a non-entity.  In GoF,
it's pretty much the same thing as PoA.  We see her interacting a little
bit more with the Trio, but they actually actively exclude her in at
least 2 instances.  We can infer that she interacts some with Hermione &
we just don't see it.  But, in general, Ginny remains a background minor
character in GoF.  She's the least-developed Weasley at this point.
Please note that I am not making any argument that she is a "victim" for
purposes of the entire series.

> Dumbledore is quite clear (and therefore JKR is quite clear) that
> adult wizards and witches have been fooled by Voldemort and that
> Ginny is not to blame because she has been victimized. There is
> nothing about her character or personality that causes her to be
> victimized.
>
I agree with that.  It's not her fault.  But, she is still just a plot
device.  She's not a well-developed character with anything to offer the
plot other than the fact that she was the one who fell into the trap of
Riddle's diary.  I'm not saying it's her fault; I'm just noting that
this is her role for that one particular book.  If she were portrayed as
a more fully-developed character in CoS, prior to the revelations about
Riddle's diary and her role in that, I might have another view
entirely.  But, what I see is a meek shy young girl who's barely
mentioned in passing until her pivotal role in the ending chapters.

> I think that characterizing her as a 'victim'is essentially victim
> blaming. She did not choose to be targeted by Voldemort and she did
> her best to resist.
>
How would you characterize her in CoS if not as a victim?

> how do we compare neville longbottom with ginny weasley?
> Some are characterizing ginny as a "victim", but not neville.
> why not? might it have to do with ...gulp..gender?
>
Leaping to conclusions again, Susan!  We're not talking about Neville.
We were talking about females & their relative strengths/weaknesses.
Last time I checked: Neville doesn't fit into that discussion.  Besides,
as I pointed out above, arguing that a character is a victim in one
instance (CoS in this case), does not mean that I believe she's a Victim
& nothing else for the entire series.  I suppose she's moved on,
although we have no real evidence of that since she's had very few lines
since CoS.

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Mar 24 14:12:56 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 08:12:56 -0600
Subject: Characters who might be strong in the future
References: <99hd73+qsts@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABCAB68.C3C31020@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15079

Hi --

Kimberly wrote:

> Well, if the analysis had been done before GoF, going by that who'd
> have thought Dobby'd have any importance again?  He'd disappeaered
> completely in book 3 - not a single mention of him, but he came back
> and was important to the plot in GoF.  Sirius was only mentioned
> twice before PoA, and he's in the top 10 now, and Arthur Weasley went
> from a total of less than 100 in the first 3 books combined to 340 by
> the end of GoF.  There's no way I'd be willing to decide who's going
> to be key in the next book(s) other than, say, the trio Hagrid &
> Dumbledore, by who's gotten the most page time so far.
>

My point with Ginny is that there were many of us on this list prior to
GoF who had the impression from JKR's public pronouncements that Ginny
*would* be featured more prominently in GoF.  So .... I just remain a
bit skeptical that this much-touted Ginny development will necessarily
come to pass.  We see glimpses of possibility for her future character
in GoF -- that's true.

As for Sirius ... he's been on a *progressive* track of character
build-up.  Arthur has also had successively more build-up since his
introduction in CoS.  Ginny, OTOH, took a deep plunge after CoS in my
view.  She really didn't figure *at all* in PoA.  She recovered only
slightly in GoF.  It's certainly possible for Ginny to be a more
developed character in OoP ... or Book 6.... or Book 7.  But, I guess
I've just been commenting that the build-up for Ginny to feature
prominently in GoF was there too, and it didn't come to pass.  So, I
remain a bit skeptic about the issue -- that's all.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 24 15:12:19 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 15:12:19 -0000
Subject: Gender - RH & SS tasks - Course subjects - Draco's looks
Message-ID: <99idgj+lj8t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15080

Parker wrote:

>I can't write by formula.  The characters tend to spring, full-blown,
>into my subconscious, where they scream at me to let them out by
>writing about them.

>IIRC, JKR has said in chats that Harry came to her much the same
>way.  I don't think she would then say, OK, I need so many women, so
>many men, etc.

I wouldn't suggest that she, or any other author, should.  When a 
character walks into your head--what a miracle!--by all means, ask him 
what he's like, don't tell him.  Definitely don't try to turn him into 
a girl.

But the mysterious workings of the subconscious mind have a lot to do 
with the assumptions we have absorbed and accepted.  If a writer's 
female characters were all fainting ninnies and his/her male 
characters were all macho he-men, I'd gently question whether his/her 
subconscious needed a little consciousness-raising!  In fact, I would 
suggest that such a writer =would= be "writing by formula": the 
formulas that had been taught to her/him through generations of 
extremely rigid gender roles in society and fiction.  Thank heaven, 
that has changed, not because writers decided to adopt a different 
formula (though a few took this awkward approach), but because enough 
people began to see women and men as full, complex beings who don't 
have to fit the roles a sexist society intends for them, and began to 
write out of that new consciousness.  That writing in turn has given 
us all models for being in the world that don't heed those stupidly 
(and tragically) restrictive rules.

Amanda wrote:

>Why is being viewed as a leader so important? Why are you only 
important
>as a woman if you can be viewed favorably through a traditionally
>male-role lens? Why try to be female men, instead of very strong 
women
>doing what they want to do (which may be raising kids or being a 
school
>nurse)?

Being a leader is being a female man?  Ouch.  I don't think leadership 
is a good thing because it's a male role and male roles are better; I 
think it has value in itself.  And as a valuable role, it should not 
be limited, whether in life or fiction, mostly to people of one sex, 
any more than the role of nurturing others should be available only to 
women.  What a nightmare that world would be... (and is, since in many 
cultures, it's going strong).

I don't hear anyone here saying that women =have= to be leaders in 
order to be viewed favorably.  It would be nice to have it as an 
option, is all.  Too much fiction has instructed girls that their 
options are to nurture and support others, and that the women who take 
leadership are not "real women" (i.e. they are portrayed as bitchy, 
shrewish, asexual, lesbian [read: deviant, in these books], unlovable, 
or just plain unpleasant.  I'm not accusing JKR of writing such a 
work--not at all!--but I would still like to see more variety and 
untraditional roles among the female characters in HP.

It was only a generation or two ago that US women had three 
thoroughly-approved career options--nurse, secretary, or teacher--and 
none of them was supposed to interfere with being a mother.  Many 
women did do other things, bless them, but they had to be willing to 
swim against the current.  Perhaps feminism has been so successful 
that we've forgotten how limited our options were just a short time 
ago.

Amanda:

>I think it might simply be that when the medical director at a school 
is
>female, she'll tend to be called "school nurse." Pomfrey does
>significantly more than your average school nurse.

So a woman who does the work of a doctor, has the training of a 
doctor, etc. is called a nurse, whereas a man doing the same exact job 
would be called a doctor?  Sad, but possibly true.

Shannon wrote:

>But we also know that Professor
>Dumbledore asked Hagrid and Madame Maxime to undertake a job over the 
summer
>too.  Do you think this mission may have something to do with what 
Professor
>Dumbledore said to Cornelius Fudge about sending envoys to the 
giants?  Do
>you think that Hagrid's task and Snape's task will be revealed as we 
get to
>the fifth book?

(1) Yes (2) I hope so, but maybe it will take more than one book to 
get there (JKR likes to plant ideas early and let them sit there a 
good long time;  e.g., she hasn't delivered on the suggestion that 
Peter will be swayed by his debt to Harry, and may not until book 7).

Vlatka wrote:
> Also, I wonder if anyone has tried to figure out the number and 
names
> of classes offered at Hogwarts. 

When they're choosing their new classes (this must be in CoS) they are 
looking through long lists of course descriptions.  Maybe most of them 
don't end up happening, or have to be tutorials, because not enough 
students sign up, but there seems to be quite a selection beyond what 
we see the Trio taking.

MC wrote:

>In fact, the only time Malfoy's looks
>are ever mentioned, it's at the Yule Ball, and Harry thinks his robes
>make him look like a vicar. No comment.

Hey!  I resemble that remark!

Rev. Amy Z
who hopes she looks ravishing in her robes ;-)

---------------------------------------------------------
 "=Wow!=" said Dennis, as though nobody in their wildest 
 dreams could hope for more than being thrown into a 
 storm-tossed, fathoms-deep lake and pushed out of it 
 again by a giant sea-monster.
                           -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 24 15:15:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 15:15:02 -0000
Subject: Quidditch questions (QTA)
Message-ID: <99idlm+lj99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15081

I was happy to see the question cleared up that was raised here a 
couple of months ago:  only the Seeker can catch, or for that matter 
touch, the Snitch.  So when they played Ravenclaw without Harry, they 
had to designate another player Seeker.  Two rules questions come to 
mind now that I've pored over the rules in QTA:

-How do players know that they're straying towards the boundaries?  It 
must be hard to tell from 60 feet up; suddenly you're called out of 
bounds and lose possession.  The Seeker in particular could cause a 
lot of trouble.
  I think there should be some kind of boundary marker going, say, 100 
feet up (however high players might typically fly), such as a charm 
that makes you tingle if you get within a few feet of the boundary.

-The Snitch is enchanted to avoid capture while staying in bounds.  
Does it have a height limit?  I know the Seeker doesn't, so the Snitch 
shouldn't either, but it seems to me a Snitch could cause a lot of 
trouble by just hanging out in the stratosphere, staying technically 
where the Seeker can find it, but for practical purposes out of reach. 
 Harry seems to stick pretty close to the action, suggesting that the 
Snitch usually does the same.

Amy Z

-------------------------------------------------
 watch this space for QTA/FB quotes now that the
 spoiler-space requirement has been lifted!  
-------------------------------------------------




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Sat Mar 24 17:31:02 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 17:31:02 -0000
Subject: Course subjects
In-Reply-To: <99idgj+lj8t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ilkm+r4hh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15082

---
> 
> Vlatka wrote:
> > Also, I wonder if anyone has tried to figure out the number and 
> names of classes offered at Hogwarts. 

Amy wrote:
> 
> When they're choosing their new classes (this must be in CoS) they 
are looking through long lists of course descriptions.  Maybe most of 
them don't end up happening, or have to be tutorials, because not 
enough students sign up, but there seems to be quite a selection 
beyond what we see the Trio taking.
> 
 It is said that Hermione "took nobody?s advice but signed up for 
everything". By doing that she had to study arithmancy, ancient 
runes, care of magical creatures, divination and muggle-studies. 
the other subjects we?ve get to know of are history of magic, 
herbology, transfiguration, charms, potions, astrology, DADA (and 
Advanced DADA). there is also a broomstick-riding-course, although 
this one is short. 
 I don?t think Hermione took any other course beside those we get to 
know about, considering that she usually speaks a lot about what she 
studies. However, this doesn?t mean that there are nothing more is 
taught at Hogwarts. There might be courses added as the student gets 
older (example: Studies of Magical Languages, like troll, mermish or 
gobbledegook...Alchemy...or Mugglestudies like the Arts, Modern 
Languages, Mathematic oand the much awaited sexeducation :)
Durmstrang and Beauxbatons does seem to teach English, since Fleur as 
well as Krum (although with a rather noticeable accent) speaks it. 
This could of course be some kind of translation-charm, thrown over 
everybody - but this being the case, shouldn?t it have been mentioned?

/Jennifer







From margdean at erols.com  Sat Mar 24 17:59:20 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:59:20 -0500
Subject: Ginny in PoA
References: <99hjgl+u685@eGroups.com> <3ABCA809.1634A0A0@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3ABCE078.DE4B0114@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15083

> In PoA, we're back to Ginny as very very much a background
> character.  She's not a victim in PoA; she's just a non-entity.  

Except for the very telling moment on the train where Ginny
reacts almost as severely to the Dementor as Harry does.  Only in
hindsight do we realize that this is because Ginny, like Harry,
has horrors in her past (quite recent ones, in her case!) that
the others don't have.

I love JKR's subtlety in planting clues . . .


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 24 17:50:00 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 17:50:00 -0000
Subject: Course subjects - Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <99ilkm+r4hh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99imo8+k7he@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15084

Jennifer wrote:
> > 
>  It is said that Hermione "took nobody?s advice but signed up for 
> everything". By doing that she had to study arithmancy, ancient 
> runes, care of magical creatures, divination and muggle-studies. 
> the other subjects we?ve get to know of are history of magic, 
> herbology, transfiguration, charms, potions, astrology, DADA (and 
> Advanced DADA). there is also a broomstick-riding-course, although 
> this one is short. 
>  I don?t think Hermione took any other course beside those we get to 
> know about, considering that she usually speaks a lot about what she 
> studies. However, this doesn?t mean that there are nothing more is 
> taught at Hogwarts. There might be courses added as the student gets 
> older 

Or it might just be our narrator being a wiseass.  He and Ron, being 
sane, balanced, and also lazy, signed up for two new courses; she 
signed up for five; that equals "everything" from Harry's POV.

> Durmstrang and Beauxbatons does seem to teach English, since Fleur 
as 
> well as Krum (although with a rather noticeable accent) speaks it. 
> This could of course be some kind of translation-charm, thrown over 
> everybody - but this being the case, shouldn?t it have been 
mentioned?

I never thought of that.  Goes to show how English-centric I am (and 
Europe is); I just figured they all knew English.  I like the 
translation-charm better.  Like the universal translator in Star Trek, 
or the Babel fish in Hitchhiker's Guide.

Jennifer, I am aware that you've posted your inquiry about ghosts' 
interactions with solid objects a couple of times.  It's the kind of 
subject that gives me a headache (The Metaphysics of Ghostly 
Existence/Nonexistence), so I haven't picked up on it.  But I'm 
feeling bad about that.  So:  my guess is that ghosts do not routinely 
interact with the solid world.  They do have their own paper, etc.  I 
figure if they can walk through walls, and if when they stop short in 
front of you you walk through them, then they also can't generally 
lift objects, etc.  BUT I've always thought that it has to be a little 
more complicated than this, or else ghosts wouldn't be able to sit 
properly at the table--they'd just float uncontrollably.  In Douglas 
Adams's Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, there's a ghost who 
can manipulate solid objects, but it takes a lot of effort.  I like 
that solution.

Peeves is not a ghost, properly speaking, and he obviously can 
interact quite effectively with solid objects, but that isn't the only 
reason that Nick got him to drop the thingamabob instead of doing it 
himself; I think Nick (a) is too dignified to throw furniture, even 
though he wanted to help Harry out, and (b) knew he was doing Peeves a 
favor by telling him about a great opportunity to tick off Filch.

Amy Z

------------------------------------------
 Grenouille: I cannot go with you to the
   market today, Crapaud.
 Crapaud:  But Grenouille, I cannot carry
   the cow alone.
             -Quidditch Through the Ages
------------------------------------------




From joy0823 at earthlink.net  Sat Mar 24 17:53:25 2001
From: joy0823 at earthlink.net (- Joy -)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:53:25 -0500
Subject: Moving Pictures
Message-ID: <002501c0b48b$544d9bc0$c7a10e41@mtgmry1.md.home.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15085

I was listening to the audio version of CoS last night (my new regimen is a
chapter every night before bed... it's delightful), and a question occurred
to me.  How do the moving photographs know which way to move?  What do you
guys think?  I mean, obviously it's magic, so there's no real explanation,
but... Does the subject have to be moving at the time the picture is taken?
Or does the film somehow know how each person would normally move, and
duplicates past movements?  Does every picture repeat the same motion over
and over, or do they have a whole repertoire?  It's amazing to me that all
of these wizard photographs have movements in them that fit both the
individual and the circumstances under which the picture was taken.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
~Joy~
http://www.geocities.com/joy0823
Last Movie Seen:  "The Mexican" - 4 out of 5 stars
Current Book:  "From the Corner of his Eye" by Dean Koontz
------------------------------------------------------------------------




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 17:51:33 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 17:51:33 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women/victims
In-Reply-To: <99hl4a+q7rm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99imr5+6ubs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15086

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:

> My guess is that although she might have "bristled" at criticism 
that 
> there are not enough strong women, she probably rethought the whole 
> thing. I would conjecture that that might be the reason that she 
made 
> the next DADA professor a woman. I have tremendous faith in her and 
> respect for her. 

I disagree with that. JKR has said on numerous occasions that she 
WON'T change the books to suit her fans. She's had this story (and 
the characters) planned for some time. The 5th book will have a 
female DADA teacher because that is what JKR planned, not because 
people have been asking for more strong female characters "like it's 
a side order of chips" (JKR quote).

I can see both sides of the story, but I have to say that I don't 
think it's quantity, I think it's quality. While women may account 
for only 13% of the major HP characters, the ones we have are pretty 
good, I think.

Stacy




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 24 17:54:24 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 17:54:24 -0000
Subject: JKR a Frog and Toad fan?
Message-ID: <99in0g+7djc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15087

Hey Brits, do you have the Frog and Toad books by Arnold Lobel over on 
that side of the lily pond?  Having quoted this in my sig, I decided 
to look up "crapaud" (I already knew grenouille means frog) and 
learned that it means toad!  Way cool!

Grenouille: I cannot go with you to the market today, Crapaud.
Crapaud:  But Grenouille, I cannot carry the cow alone. (QTA)

Frog and Toad are very sweet, funny "easy reader" books about two best 
friends.

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 . . . summoning the memory of the day I had 
 been voted President of the local Gobstones 
 Club, I performed the Patronus Charm.  
     -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
----------------------------------------------




From zsenya at sugarquill.com  Sat Mar 24 19:14:30 2001
From: zsenya at sugarquill.com (zsenya at sugarquill.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 19:14:30 -0000
Subject: Percy Lovers Unite
In-Reply-To: <3ABBFD52.7A2CB7B5@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99irmn+cb6a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15088

--- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> I'm a card-carrying member of Percy Lovers Unite & I second all of
> Trina's thoughts!!

Penny - like Kathy usually is - I'm amazed to find that we are in 
total agreement on this point!  I, too, am a big fan of Percy...

Arabella and I are working on a post-Hogwarts fic, and I have really, 
really taken to Percy as I write about him.  I generally agree with 
what seems to be a commonly held suspicion that, if forced to choose 
sides, Percy may choose the Ministry initially, but eventually will 
be reunited with his family.

I also think that JKR has put hints throughout the books to show 
Percy's "human" side, so to speak.  There's a point in PoA I think 
(it's over the Christmas break) where Ron suggests playing with a set 
of Gobstones that Percy left behind.  Now, I ask, can he really be 
all that uptight if he owns a set of Gobstones, which, if I remember 
correctly, explode or something like that?

There are other instances - for example, in PS when Percy tries 
to "help" Harry play chess, where Percy seems to want to join in with 
everyone, but he's already sort of been branded as a "goody-goody"  
And, like Hermione (IMO), he may tend to brag on occasion, because he 
really does do pretty remarkable things, but for school age children, 
more often than not, academic achievements are not praised as much as 
they could be. Percy's a smart kid - we know that.

Also, although this is more in my head than in the books, I tend to 
think that Percy is *very* hurt when his brothers make remarks or say 
things to him that draw him in an unflattering light. I mean, in CoS, 
they all assume that Percy's upset about Penelope's condition because 
she's another prefect. At the time they don't know that she's his 
girlfriend, but I mean, geez, what an awful, cold thing to think 
about your brother.

Fred and George, as much as I love them, are rather hard on poor 
Percy, although, I suppose it's helped his character development to 
have to deal with them...

:)Zsenya






From editor at texas.net  Sat Mar 24 19:39:07 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:39:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pomfrey and Gender balance/strong women Madam  Pomfrey in particular
References: <00aa01c0b437$9fca2540$37397e82@shelley>
Message-ID: <3ABCF7DA.4D61978D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15089

Rina Stewart wrote:

> Amanda wrote: Why is being viewed as a leader so important? Why are
> you only
> important> as a woman if you can be viewed favorably through a
> traditionally
> > male-role lens? Why try to be female men, instead of very strong
> women> doing what they want to do (which may be raising kids or being
> a
> school> nurse)?
> >
>
> Susan responded:
> <<But why would you say that a leader is a "female man"?>>
>
> I don't think that was what she was getting at. I could be wrong, of
> course, but this is my take on it - you don't have to be a leader to
> be a strong woman. You can be a strong woman, a strong character, and
> be a mom. Molly Weasley is a strong woman character, but she's not a
> headmaster or minister of magic. She doesn't need to be, she's strong
> on her own. It seems like people are saying that the women in HP
> aren't strong because they're not in positions of leadership, but I
> disagree. They are strong because of who they are, not what their job
> is, and that's the bottom line, IMO.

Thank you ever so much, Rina, that's exactly what I meant and now I
don't have to worry about how to phrase it! I can finish riffling
through the email and go do my strong woman act on the downstairs floor
(mopping day, sigh).

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sat Mar 24 19:54:30 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:54:30 -0600
Subject: Gender roles (was Spoilers for Schoolbooks can end)
References: <3ABC01AE.88E99AF4@swbell.net> <015001c0b41a$eef11420$10ccfea9@computer>
Message-ID: <3ABCFB76.AB55CDEA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15090

YAAY! I was waiting for this! Actually, someone else has mentioned it,
too, but on the gender roles discussion, Quidditch Through the Ages has
loads of prominent witches mentioned. So much so that I actually thought
things like, "wow, another female! I wonder if she's responding to
criticism?" Probably it only struck me because of all the discussions,
then and now, we've had about the gender balance, but did any of you
notice? React favorably? Still have problems?

--Amanda, stirred the pot, now adding lacewings




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 20:04:08 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:04:08 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <99hhmg+9gou@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99iujo+u9dg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15091

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> 
> 
> Oh, well, we women will just have to understand therefore that we 
> can only be 13% of the book..after all, it's the creative 
> imagination....
> 
> Funny that it's never the other way around

That's kind of fatalistic, isn't it?

First because sometimes it *is* the other way around.  Surely you've 
read books with great, strong female characters?  I have!

Secondly, I was defending JKR in saying that we can't expect her 
imagination to work differently than it does, but that doesn't mean 
that there aren't those working now, and more to come in the future, 
who are writing, and will continue to write from their own 
imaginations, that will be inspired to write strong, wonderful female 
characters.  I'm just saying that those who don't can't necessarily 
force themselves to do so and still write at the same level of 
quality.  


kimberly





From Irgbit at ebers.net  Sat Mar 24 20:11:45 2001
From: Irgbit at ebers.net (Irgbit at ebers.net)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:11:45 -0000
Subject: Seeking: Internet-Rally on HP1 for EFL-Learners
Message-ID: <99iv21+fdol@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15092

I am kind of desperately seeking a webunit with different tasks on HP 
on the web and the book for schoolkids reading Harry Potter and the 
philosopher's (sorcerers) stone (7th yearEnglish as a foreign 
language).
Maybe somebody has found anything like that, I bet it should be out 
there. I'd be grateful for help
Irgbit, Hamburg, Germany





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar 24 20:15:32 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:15:32 -0000
Subject: JKR changing story (was:Gender balance/strong women/victims
In-Reply-To: <99imr5+6ubs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99iv94+jhot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15093

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:

> I disagree with that. JKR has said on numerous occasions that she 
> WON'T change the books to suit her fans. She's had this story (and 
> the characters) planned for some time.

That is what JKR has said, but she has also admitted to changing the 
books to suit herself or her publisher: 

that HP and the Goblet of Fire had been supposed to be titled HP and 
the Doomspell Tournament 

that the DADA teacher in GoF was supposed to be Davey Gudgeon with 
his magical eye. In PoA, Lupin tells us that the kids used to play 
with the Whomping Willow until a boy named Davey Gudgeon almost lost 
an eye -- in this context, I can guess that 'almost lost' means he 
DID lose it, and putting it back gave it all those magic ability 
we're familiar with -- and when Harry has to answer Lockhart's fan 
mail in CoS, one letter is from Gladys Gudgeon "One of my most 
loyal fans", whom I would guess to be Davey's mother or grandmother. 
All that careful background wasted just by changing a character's 
name!

that Ron was supposed to have a cousin named Icicle who would appear 
in Book 4

amTsd {GoFBop and chad 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 24 20:29:59 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:29:59 -0000
Subject: JKR changing story (was:Gender balance/strong women/victims
In-Reply-To: <99iv94+jhot@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99j047+g8g3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15094

love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> 
> > I disagree with that. JKR has said on numerous occasions that she 
> > WON'T change the books to suit her fans. She's had this story (and 
> > the characters) planned for some time.
> 
Rita wrote:

> That is what JKR has said, but she has also admitted to changing the 
> books to suit herself or her publisher: 
> 
> that HP and the Goblet of Fire had been supposed to be titled HP and 
> the Doomspell Tournament 

I didn't know the one about Davey Gudgeon!  Maybe he'll show up in 
time.  I'm glad we had Mad-Eye, though--we don't see as much of that 
generation, and he was fascinating.  I hope we'll see the real Moody 
in 5-6-7.

I'm not sure Doomspell qualifies as the kind of change JKR was 
swearing she wouldn't make--it might've just been the working title.  
CoS had the working title of HP and the Half-Blood Prince, so you 
can't put too much stock in working titles (and you can also thank 
your stars she's willing to change titles)!  We keep calling Book 5 
OoP, but it might be something else by the time it's released.  I 
actually think Doomspell Tournament is a more interesting title than 
Triwizard Tournament; I wonder why she changed it?

But to get back to your point:  JKR may, and no doubt has, changed her 
mind because of things that have happened to her since she first 
worked out the overall story several years ago, including things 
people have said to her about the books.  I definitely want her to be 
firm in her vision and not bend to what is perceived as more popular, 
sellable (as if she has to worry), age-appropriate, etc.  This doesn't 
mean she can't think, "geez, I really do write male characters more 
often than female--wonder what that's all about?" and change the way 
she writes, or make other shifts.  She was only about 25 when she 
started on this journey and she may be 40 by the time she's done; one 
would hope that she would grow as a person in those 15 years and that 
the books would reflect that.  We probably won't know how unless she 
says, or until a biographer digs through the notebooks and writes 
about how things changed from their initial conception to the final 
version.

There's a difference between sacrificing your artistic integrity and 
being open to change.  Changing in ways I don't like is the former, 
changing in ways that I like is the latter <bg>.  Just kidding.  She 
will have to remain true to her own vision, and I'm sure that I'll 
love most of it to death and quibble with the rest, but that vision 
may change as she goes along, and that's nothing to be sorry about.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
 [Quidditch] is, of course, an entirely fictional 
 sport and nobody really plays it.  May I also take
 this opportunity to wish Puddlemere United the best
 of luck next season.
              -Foreword, Quidditch Through the Ages
-----------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 24 20:33:26 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:33:26 -0000
Subject: clarification
In-Reply-To: <99j047+g8g3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99j0am+o07u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15095

I wrote:

>  I 
> actually think Doomspell Tournament is a more interesting title than 
> Triwizard Tournament; I wonder why she changed it?

I meant:  a more interesting title for the tournament itself.  When it 
comes to the book title, I like HP and the Goblet of Fire much better 
than HP and the _______ Tournament.  Much more evocative.  (Some 
reviewer complained that it was a silly title because the goblet 
wasn't even in the story much.  I wanted to say, "It's a SYMBOL, ya 
twit!"  Honestly!)

Amy Z




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Sat Mar 24 21:23:58 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 21:23:58 -0000
Subject: Course subjects - Ghosts
In-Reply-To: <99imo8+k7he@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99j39e+k5ip@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15096

> I never thought of that.  Goes to show how English-centric I am 
(and Europe is); I just figured they all knew English>

Its so typical! ;)
 
> Jennifer, I am aware that you've posted your inquiry about ghosts' 
> interactions with solid objects a couple of times.  It's the kind 
of subject that gives me a headache (The Metaphysics of Ghostly 
> Existence/Nonexistence), so I haven't picked up on it.  But I'm 
> feeling bad about that.  

 Ohh! Someone coming up with an explanation even though it causes 
headache. I always though noone read my poor ghostquestions and I was 
starting to despair. Thanks a lot, you did help me :)

/Jennifer





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sat Mar 24 22:48:35 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 14:48:35 -0800
Subject: QTA Question
In-Reply-To: <99idlm+lj99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010324144249.02f2f350@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15097

On page 39 it says that the first Quidditch World Cup was
in 1473 and that they are held every four years.  So how can
the QWC in GoF be the 422nd one??



                                                 -- Dave




From editor at texas.net  Sat Mar 24 22:51:23 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 16:51:23 -0600
Subject: Gender discussion: An original thought! Alert the media!
Message-ID: <3ABD24EB.F7F9F314@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15098

I had what seemed to me a profound insight into the whole gender thing.
I wasn't sure if anyone has made this distinction before, and I
apologize if it's been said, but I don't often get original insights and
I tend to run with them when they come. Also, much groveling in Penny's
direction if this belongs on Chatter (salaam, salaam), but I thought it
ws relevant.

Re: female characters (or any characters) defined by their relationship
to men in the books.

Something about the knee-jerk objections to this sort of "definition"
bothered me. I quite often am perfectly happy to be defined by my
relationship to someone else (my wedding day springs to mind as an
outstanding public statement of this). Every time I am introduced as "my
wife, Amanda," or "Mom," I am allowing myself to be defined by my
relationship to someone else. Every one of us lives in a web of
relationships and is occasionally seen by others as a component of
someone else. So I don't think personal definition via a relationship
with someone else is a bad thing on the face of it. The danger, and the
grounds for objection, and the loss of dignity as a person whatever
gender, seems to me to arise in how one defines oneself. If one's
self-definition is based on a relationship with another, *then* you have
problems.

Okay. So we have been discussing that most of the female characters
we've seen in the books are defined by a relationship with a man.
However, none of these female characters seems to define *themselves*
that way (or they don't act like they do; they act like strong
individuals). I would agree that there was a sex bias in the books if we
had been confronted with any variety of Stepford wife, the sort who, in
her own mind, thinks first and foremost "I'm X's wife" before her own
name. But we have not seen much of that at all.

In fact, there are only two characters in the whole series that I can
think of whose selfhood or internal value, in their own mind, is derived
from a relationship with someone else. And the most blatant one is not a
woman. It is Peter Pettigrew. He apparently has discarded any inner
strength he had, and exists, not only to Voldemort but to himself, as a
tool of another. His portrayal by JKR is not flattering.

Only one other character even remotely can be seen as self-defining in
terms of another--Lily Potter. From what little we've heard of her, she
did have her own mind and self-identity, but her final choice was to
define herself as Harry's mother, and die for him. *Her* choice to
define herself this way was a product of her inner strength. And her
portrayal by JKR is heroic.

At the moment, we *are* largely limited to Harry's point of view and his
interpretation of other characters. This does not equal those other
characters' views of themselves. I think this series is about
personalities and choices, and I further think that Dumbledore's comment
about "It is our choices, rather than our abilities" must be interpreted
to extend to gender itself. A man in the series chose out of weakness to
define himself, to himself, exclusively by another, and he has little,
if any, self-image or honor left. A woman in the series chose out of
strength to define herself by another, and her sacrifice has been the
"edge" which may bring victory to the side of good.

I think JKR's balance is just fine.

--Amanda, back to housecleaning now




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 23:21:05 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:21:05 -0000
Subject: Moving Pictures
In-Reply-To: <002501c0b48b$544d9bc0$c7a10e41@mtgmry1.md.home.com>
Message-ID: <99ja51+foj4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15099

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "- Joy -" <joy0823 at e...> wrote:
> I was listening to the audio version of CoS last night (my new 
regimen is a
> chapter every night before bed... it's delightful), and a question 
occurred
> to me.  How do the moving photographs know which way to move?  What 
do you
> guys think?  I mean, obviously it's magic, so there's no real 
explanation,
> but... Does the subject have to be moving at the time the picture 
is taken?
> Or does the film somehow know how each person would normally move, 
and
> duplicates past movements?  Does every picture repeat the same 
motion over
> and over, or do they have a whole repertoire?  It's amazing to me 
that all
> of these wizard photographs have movements in them that fit both the
> individual and the circumstances under which the picture was taken.
> 

I think to some extent it's a play on the idea that a photograph can 
steal someone's soul.  The person's image retains some trace of their 
personality, and therefore behaves like the person would behave.  
That's why Harry's photographic self in CoS (in the pic Colin took 
with Harry and Lockhart) was trying to hide outside of the boundaries 
of the picture - because Harry didn't/wouldn't want to be there.  
The thing I keep wondering about is where Lockhart's photographic 
selves got the hair rollers!

kimberly






From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Sat Mar 24 23:38:19 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:38:19 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women/victims
In-Reply-To: <99hllm+oihp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99jb5b+ci63@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15100

Susan wrote:<snip>

>I am also troubled that those who cannot imagine Harry as a girl talk 
about "cat fights"...fights between girls as somehow trivial and 
stupid, yet fights among boys, or Hermione slapping Draco are somehow 
more important and noble than fights between girls and women...does 
this make sense?

PS/SS
Draco and Harry nearly come to blows on the Hogwarts Express during 
their first trip to school (Scabbers interrupted.).
Draco and Harry would have come to blows (given the opportunity) during 
the incident that included Harry's first broom ride.
GoF
Draco and Harry try to curse each other ? blows with wands instead of 
fists.

In the two books mentioned, and those in between, there is physical 
violence, and/or threats of physical violence between Draco and Harry.  
They have a mutual enmity.  There's nothing to suggest that their 
feelings toward each other would change if they were female (Dracolene 
and Harrieta in my example, although I do think that whoever suggested 
Dracette did a better job <g>).  Because of the running rivalry, I do 
believe that the female protagonist In This Series would need to have a 
female rival in the "Draco" character.  I don't see Draco feeling 
compelled to compete with, nor Lucius holding up as an example, "that 
Potter girl".  I would, however, see a natural rivalry between Famous 
Female Potter and "Aristocratic" Female Malfoy.

My feeling was that Hermione struck Draco, but he did not reciprocate.  
Would "Dracoline" have taken a slap from another girl?  I don't think 
so.  That's where the "cat fight" comment came from (and I did use it 
apologetically) ? because I could imagine the two of them fighting, and 
the observers calling "Cat fight!" and jockeying for better viewing in 
the same way students did so when I was in school and female students 
fought.  I neither wrote nor implied (intentionally) either that "cat 
fight" implied trivia or that fights between boys or girls and boys 
were even different than fights between girls (women) except in the 
terminology.  I have never heard of a fight between boys being called a 
"cat fight".  I have never heard of a fight between girls being called 
a "brawl" or a "slugfest".  I am, of course, writing from my own 
experience ? others may have a different perspective.
(see message 15037 for full text)

>If we as a society, and we as individuals were truly 'gender neutral' 
and we are not, than Harry as a girl (trivialized as harriet by some)
would not be a wrench, or a jolt, or incomprehensible, or strange, orw
weird.....

I don't consider giving a female character a female name making that 
character trivial.  It's not impossible that a girl would be called 
"Harry", it's just that generally it would be "Harry-short-for-
something-else".  Besides "Harr-ieta" is so much faster to type than 
"Female Harry" or "Harry the girl" for the purpose of making a point.
The point I was making was that many of the characters/scenes would 
change if Harry were a girl.  It wouldn't just be a matter of taking 
the exact same story and giving Harry cleavage.
Many things, even subtle things, would change.  
For instance, Harry would share a dorm with Hermione, not Ron.  Since 
Hermione went home for Christmas in PS/SS, Harry would have been alone 
when she received the invisibility cloak.  She would have then had to 
what, wait until the boys were up, smuggle it down to the common room, 
wait for Fred, George, and Percy to go out and then ask Ron if he knew 
what it was?  Or, not knowing that it was something more than just a 
piece of fabric, would she have just asked the first person she 
encountered what it was (meaning later than Ron and Hermione wouldn't 
be the only ones in on the secret)? 
In CoS, Ginny would have become a better-developed character earlier 
on, just by virtue of the fact that Harry would have been sharing 
Ginny's bedroom after being freed from the Muggles by Fred, George, and 
Ron.  I don't think Harry could have shared space with Ginny for that 
time (was it two weeks) and then relegated her to "just another first 
year" status when they got to school.  They would have developed some 
sort of a relationship. Would Harry have seen the diary and asked her 
about it?  In fact, would Lucius have given the diary to Ginny? (I'll 
save this question for another post.)
Harry is adventurous, strong, proud, curious, and potentially powerful 
? just to name a few of his attributes.  I think that those of us who 
cannot picture Harry as a girl are talking about the Harry Potter 
series, as it stands now, not that a girl could not also have those 
attributes or the same/similar adventures. 
a.





From litalex at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 23:53:53 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 15:53:53 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Moving Pictures
References: <99ja51+foj4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013c01c0b4bd$af893f80$b910eda9@kwan>

No: HPFGUIDX 15101

Hello,

> steal someone's soul.  The person's image retains some trace of their
> personality, and therefore behaves like the person would behave.

I think it's more the emotions at the moment rather than true personality.
Using your example:

> That's why Harry's photographic self in CoS (in the pic Colin took
> with Harry and Lockhart) was trying to hide outside of the boundaries
> of the picture - because Harry didn't/wouldn't want to be there.

Which is an emotion at that particular instance, not a personality trait.

> The thing I keep wondering about is where Lockhart's photographic
> selves got the hair rollers!

Er, magic <g>.  Although if he's in hair rollers, he must have been damn
comfortable and feeling very relaxed and at home (most people I know
wouldn't be in hair rollers in front of company...).

little Alex




From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sat Mar 24 23:56:57 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 18:56:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gender discussion: An original thought! Alert the media!
In-Reply-To: <3ABD24EB.F7F9F314@texas.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103241815290.7663-100000@er6.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15102

On Sat, 24 Mar 2001, Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Something about the knee-jerk objections to this sort of "definition"
> bothered me. I quite often am perfectly happy to be defined by my
> relationship to someone else (my wedding day springs to mind as an
> outstanding public statement of this). Every time I am introduced as "my
> wife, Amanda," or "Mom," I am allowing myself to be defined by my
> relationship to someone else. Every one of us lives in a web of
> relationships and is occasionally seen by others as a component of
> someone else. So I don't think personal definition via a relationship
> with someone else is a bad thing on the face of it. The danger, and the
> grounds for objection, and the loss of dignity as a person whatever
> gender, seems to me to arise in how one defines oneself. If one's
> self-definition is based on a relationship with another, *then* you have
> problems.

You're right, Amanda, how one views and defines oneself is certainly a
*very* important factor.  Gender plays only a minor part in that: the
woman who defines herself only in terms of her mother, never developing
an independent personality, never acting in a way her mother would
disapprove of, never developing any other important relationships, is
just as unhealthy as a woman who defines herself solely in terms of her
husband.  Having a life of one's own is key; psychological well-being is
at stake.  (I'm certainly not trying to argue that bonds with/between
women are in any sense 'better' than those with/between men.)

And on the other hand, self-definition completely independent of social
relationships is also unhealthy.  It *is* important to let connections
to others influence your life, in a major way.  Real psychological
problems can/will result otherwise.  Personally, I can/have define(d)
myself as a daughter, sister, friend, lover, student, teacher, leader --
all of those absolutely central and in terms of other people.  And while
most of those central relationships are to other women, some are
not. 

The problem that I have with gender and the HP books is that all of
those important, necessary, defining connections are, for men and women
alike, to men.  That doesn't make any of the characters, male or
female, less strong, but it does seem, to me anyway, to say something
about which sex is more valued (at least by Harry, so far).  Only very
minor characters (Fleur's sister, Hermione's parents) are defined by a
relationship with a female; important characters are defined by their
relationships to important people, and thus far, those are male.  That
doesn't make any of our important female characters less strong,
though.  

Molly, for instance, is a very strong woman.  She keeps her family
together and is absolutely responsible for their well-being.  But from
what we've seen in the books, this other-focusedness is her primary
characteristic.  And 'others before self' is a traditionally feminine
mode of relating to the world.  It's not an issue of strength/weakness,
to my mind, but of traditional and non-traditional roles.  I actually do
think and hope JKR will show us women in more non-traditional roles as
the series progresses, as it seems she's doing in QTA, but as of yet, I
don't think she particularly has.

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.





From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Sun Mar 25 00:10:51 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 00:10:51 -0000
Subject: Harry- the girl & Riddle's diary
Message-ID: <99jd2b+psr4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15103

If Harry were a girl, would Ginny have gotten much story space at all?
In PS/SS, we first learn that Ginny is a "fan" of Harry.  In CoS, 
Riddle learns all about Harry's exploits because Ginny writes about 
him.  If Ginny were not in the throes of a crush - if Harry were "just" 
a famous girl instead of a "heroic" boy (using the viewpoint of an 11 
year old girl, here, not making any political statements), would Ginny 
have filled the pages of her diary with information about she-Harry?

Preceding that line of thought...
If Harry were a girl, would Lucius have given the diary to Ginny?  I 
mean, why not deliver "Riddle's" enemy right to Riddle?  In CoS, Harry 
got the "blank" diary and researched it, fiddled with it, carried it 
around until he could figure out how to make it work.  I think S-Harry 
would have figured it out, too, but instead of writing in it after 
Ginny had already told the story, Lucius would have planned for S-Harry 
to be the one getting her soul sucked out by Riddle.

What do you think would have been the story line/outcome of CoS had 
Harry been female?  I mean, what major points do you see remaining the 
same, and what do you think would change?

Question about Riddle:
He says that he and Harry are both "halfbloods" (CoS chapter 17).  How? 
Both Harry's parents are magic.  If this has already been answered, 
please point me to the answer/thread.
..."There are strange likenesses between us after all.  Even you must 
have noticed. Both halfbloods, orphans, raised by Muggles."...

a.





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 25 00:49:36 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 00:49:36 -0000
Subject: Gender discussion: An original thought! Alert the media!
In-Reply-To: <3ABD24EB.F7F9F314@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99jfb0+mh8p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15104

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> In fact, there are only two characters in the whole series that I 
> can think of whose selfhood or internal value, in their own mind,
> is derived from a relationship with someone else. And the most 
> blatant one is not a woman. It is Peter Pettigrew. He apparently
> has discarded any inner strength he had, and exists, not only to
> Voldemort but to himself, as a tool of another. His portrayal by
> JKR is not flattering.

There are a couple more examples, which correlate with your point. 
Barty Crouch, Jr, who defines himself as his father's enemy and the 
Dark Lord's loyal servant. Maybe Crouch's co-conspirators also 
defined themselves only as the Dark Lord's loyal servants. Winky, 
defining herself only as servant of the Crouch family. 




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 25 01:05:33 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 01:05:33 -0000
Subject: Ghost and Voldemort
Message-ID: <99jg8t+pqnr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15105

My friend and I were brainstorming about a fitting end for everyone's 
favourite dark lord and his pursue of immortality.  One of us 
mentioned JKR's comment about ghost: What if Voldemort become a 
*gasp* ghost?
We're told that we are not supposed to find out how ghosts work until 
book 7.  This scenario  will be very ironical and comical because 
Ghosts are immortal (be careful what you wish for); JKR is adamant 
that there is no resurrection and once you are dead, you are dead; 
Ghosts as seen from the past books, have so far demontrated no 
magical power.





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Sun Mar 25 01:45:01 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 17:45:01 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry- the girl & Riddle's diary
In-Reply-To: <99jd2b+psr4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010324173306.00e64d20@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15106

At 12:10 AM 3/25/01 +0000, aprilgc at ivillage.com wrote:
>If Harry were a girl, would Ginny have gotten much story space at all?

If the book had been "Sherry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets",
then Lucy Malfoy with have given Tonya Riddle's diary to a shy, love-sick
schoolboy named Georgie Weasley (Brother of Sherry's good friend
Rhonda, and twins Frida and Gina).

( Zeus, I'm starting to sound like the "Parallel Universe" episode of
  _Red Dwarf_!  :) )

>Question about Riddle:
>He says that he and Harry are both "halfbloods" (CoS chapter 17).  How?
>Both Harry's parents are magic.

Death Eaters don't consider Muggle-borns to be "true" wizards/witches, so
Harry is of "impure" blood by their reckoning.



                                                 -- Dave




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Sun Mar 25 01:53:06 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 01:53:06 -0000
Subject: Draco Was (Re: House Elves - ... Draco - Sirius -  Wizarding Wealth)
In-Reply-To: <3ABC4C6F.D5A60CE8@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <99jj22+oajc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15107

Rita wrote:
>Well, as a devotee of fanon Draco, I have to believe that canon Draco is
handsome, wittily sarcastic, and good at his school work as well as at
Quidditch (he must be good at Quidditch, as in PoA he won three out of
four matches, and Harry only beat him because of having a Firebolt), 
but
I feel compelled to play Devil's Advocate: Draco doesn't need looks OR
charm or very much intelligence or Quidditch ability to get Slytherin
girlfriends and hangers-on: he has money and his family has power, so
being his friend (or wife!) would be a useful means to many Slytherin
ends.

Hate to burst the fanon bubble.  In CoS chapter 4, Lucius says to Mr. 
Borgin:
"I hope my son will amount to more than a thief or a plunderer, Borgin, 

Though if his grades don't pick up
that may indeed be all that he is 
fit for ?"

I do agree that he's got the money/power angle working for him ? enough 
that he doesn't have to worry about anything else.  Unless of course he 
gets in his father's way or causes his father embarrassment ? in which 
case he'll be cut off with only the pennies his mother manages to sneak 
to him.
a.





From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 01:59:40 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 01:59:40 -0000
Subject: Draco Was (Re: House Elves - ... Draco - Sirius -  Wizarding Wealth)
In-Reply-To: <99jj22+oajc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99jjec+qpem@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15108

> Hate to burst the fanon bubble.  In CoS chapter 4, Lucius says to 
Mr. 
> Borgin:
> "I hope my son will amount to more than a thief or a plunderer, 
Borgin, 
> 
Though if his grades don't pick up
that may indeed be all that he 
is 
> fit for ?"

I think Draco can still be second in their class, or equally high up 
there, however. Lucius may have been referring to the fact that Draco 
isn't number one- Lucius may be very demanding in grades, and might 
be exaggerating when he talks of Draco becoming a plunderer. Lucius 
may be saying, 'though if his grades don't pick up', and meaning, 'if 
you aren't valedictorian, I will be very angry with you.'

- Celeste Chang




From litalex at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 02:05:51 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 18:05:51 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry- the girl & Riddle's diary
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010324173306.00e64d20@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <016601c0b4d0$1f32e400$b910eda9@kwan>

No: HPFGUIDX 15109

Hello,

> Death Eaters don't consider Muggle-borns to be "true" wizards/witches, so
> Harry is of "impure" blood by their reckoning.

Just wondering, though, how many generations would it take for someone to
become a 'pure' blood?  I mean, *Lily* is the one with Muggle parents; both
of Harry parents are wizard/wtich.  But if Harry is still 'impure' by the
DE's standards...

little Alex




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Sun Mar 25 02:11:24 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 02:11:24 -0000
Subject: Pure blood (Was Re: Harry- the girl & Riddle's diary)
In-Reply-To: <016601c0b4d0$1f32e400$b910eda9@kwan>
Message-ID: <99jk4c+roei@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15110

Dave wrote:
> Death Eaters don't consider Muggle-borns to be "true" wizards/witches, so
> Harry is of "impure" blood by their reckoning.
little Alex wrote:
>Just wondering, though, how many generations would it take for someone to
become a 'pure' blood?  I mean, *Lily* is the one with Muggle parents; 
both
of Harry parents are wizard/wtich.  But if Harry is still 'impure' by 
the
DE's standards...

Good question.  By the same token, where to Squibs fit into their great 
order of things.  I mean, their blood's "pure" (they come from 
wizarding families), but they aren't wizards themselves.  Does that put 
them on the DE hit list?  Or are they pure enough to be left alone/
ignored (especially since a Squib would not be able to hinder a DE)?
  a.





From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Sun Mar 25 02:39:41 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 02:39:41 -0000
Subject: serious speculation (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Sirius)
Message-ID: <99jlpd+escg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15111

One of my lost owls finally came back - but it failed to deliver my 
message.  I hope all the "wrotes" are still in the right place. <g>
     > Monika wrote: 
     > 
     > >But this raises another question: doesn't anyone find it 
strange that he was supposed to be Voldy's second in command if he was 
only 21 or 22 in 1981? 

     Amy wrote: 

     > Good point.  I think we hear the "You-Know-Who's right hand man" 
thing from Stan Shunpike, no?  Or is it from Fudge? 

     Fudge says something like that, too: 
     "I must say, You-Know-Who alone and friendless is one thing... 
     but give him back his most devoted servant, and I shudder to 
     think how quickly he'll raise again..." 
     Of course "most devoted servant" is not exactly the same thing 
     as "right hand man", but it implies that Fudge believes (or wants 
     to make us/the wizarding world believe) that Sirius was not only 
     very close to Voldy, but also very high in the hierarchy. 

     > If the former, I think it might not be fact, but the 
embellishment of legend.  Stan, who is too young to remember the actual 
event, got the story many times removed, and he's laying it on thick 
for Harry. 

     There is certainly something like legend or myth involved, but 
     it seems that someone spread the rumor that Sirius was indeed 
     Voldy's right hand man. What made people believe that Sirius was 
     so powerful a wizard? I still don't get it... 

     Monika 



First, I think the reference was "most devoted servant" - who turned 
out to be Crouch, jr. -- so I don't think age is the issue. 
Does anyone remember Fudge's position during the Sirius arrest?  Was it 
"magical law enforcement (he mentioned it in PoA, I think when he and 
Harry are talking after the knight bus)?  Is it possible that Fudge is 
an undercover DE? 
As a law enforcer (if that's right), he would have been in the perfect 
position to point the finger (or at least suspicion) at someone who 
wasn't BC, jr. -- and who better than Sirius (James probably would have 
been too much of a stretch). 
In my current train 
So, Fudge starts planting these seeds of doubt about Sirius just in 
case things go wrong (attributed to good sleuthing or a reliable 
informant). Then things Do go wrong.  PP tells him where he'll be able 
to "catch" Sirius (so Fudge can be there to help insure PP's escape/
"death" and SB's blame). Got one (SB). Next Fudge has got to find out 
if V. might still be around, but how to do that?  How better than to 
send V.'s "real" most devoted servant?  So he sends BC, jr. to get info 
from the Longbottoms.  If jr's successful and they get V. back, Fudge 
is the one who helped arrange his return = more power = pathway to top 
of whatever power structure V. defines. If jr.'s not successful (the 
Longbottoms don't talk), Fudge steps in and arrests jr.  BC, sr. will 
certainly send jr. to the Dementors without much fuss (like trial & 
interrogation), and Fudge gets to destroy BC, sr. and improve his own 
reputation at the same time = more power = pathway to Minister of 
Magic.
a.





From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar 25 02:53:23 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:53:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghost and Voldemort
References: <99jg8t+pqnr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABD5DA2.EA5922A4@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15112

MMMfanfic at hotmail.com wrote:

> We're told that we are not supposed to find out how ghosts work until
> book 7.  This scenario  will be very ironical and comical because
> Ghosts are immortal (be careful what you wish for); JKR is adamant
> that there is no resurrection and once you are dead, you are dead;
> Ghosts as seen from the past books, have so far demontrated no magical
> power.

Where has she said all this? I don't catch all the chats and interviews,
can you point me the right direction?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar 25 03:18:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 21:18:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Arithmancy, Etc.
References: <999rq3+ired@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABD636D.19E119B0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15113

zora_djevojka at yahoo.com wrote:

> I'd just like to add that the title of Hermione's textbook (from PoA)
> is _Numerology and Grammatica_.
> I've always wondered about the Grammatica part. I think that it has
> something to do with writing (language) and rules, but don't know what
> the non-Muggle meaning could be. Any thoughts?

I thought it was a play on the magical associations with the roots of
"grammar." An old word for magic is "gramarye," which by some route
un-looked-up and unrecalled by me at the moment, evolved into our word
"grammar." I think it dates from when literacy was not all that common,
and knowledge of writing often equalled knowledge of the arcane. I
thought JKR just applied her wonderful ability to come up with
appropriate-sounding terms, and got one that invokes the association
without being so predictable and direct.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From muggle-reader at angelfire.com  Sun Mar 25 03:23:03 2001
From: muggle-reader at angelfire.com (muggle-reader at angelfire.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 03:23:03 -0000
Subject: Percy and Ginny (was Re: Percy)
In-Reply-To: <F189LDiKBsuZ2K4xDh900006c23@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <99joan+me70@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15114

True, Percy did insist Ginny take the pepper-up potion. However, I 
was referring to Ginny's mental distress in CoS Ch. 16.  
Perhaps, "ignoring Ginny's mental distress" was a poor choice of 
words on my part. "Questioning Ginny's integrity to save his own 
skin" would have been more accurate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
CoS, Ch. 16 American ed.

Just then, Ginny Weasley came over and sat down next to Ron . She 
looked tense and nervous, and Harry noticed her hands were twisting 
in her lap.
<snip>
Ginny didn't say anything, but glanced up and down the Gryffindor 
table with a scared look on her face that reminded Harry of someone, 
though he couldn't think who.
<snip>
Harry suddenly realized Ginny looked like. She was rocking backward 
and forward slightly in her chair exactly like Dobby did when he was 
teetering on the edge of revealing forbidden information.
<snip>
"I've got to tell you something, " Ginny mumbled, carefully not 
looking at Harry.
<snip>
"Ginny looked as though she couldn't find the right words."
<snip><snip>
Ginny drew a deep breath and at that precise moment, Percy Weasley 
appeared, looking tired and wan.
<snip>
Ginny jumped as though her chair had just been electrified, gave 
Percy a fleeting, frightened look, and scampered away. Percy sat down 
and grabbed a mug from the center of the table.

"Percy!" said Ron angrily. "She was just about to tell us something 
important!"

Halfway though a gulp of tea, Percy choked.

"What sort of thing?" he said, coughing.

"I just asked her if she'd seen anything odd and she started to say--"

"Oh--that--that's nothing to do with the Chamber of Secrets", said 
Percy at once.

"How do you know?" said Ron, his eyebrows raised.

"Well, er, if you must know, Ginny, er, walked in one me the other 
day when I was--well, never mind,--the point is, she spotted me doing 
something and I, um,  I asked her not to mention it to anybody. I 
must say, I sis think she'd keep her word. It's nothing really, I'd 
just rather--"
------------------------------------------------------
Clearly Ginny is in a state of mental distress. She is anxious, 
panicky, and hyperreflexic. Upon learning that Ginny was about to 
divulge "important" news, Percy, with egocentric urgency, 
thinks "It's all about ME!", hence choking on his tea. He does not 
even consider the important news is about the Chamber, much less that 
his sister could possibly have any information about the Chamber. 
Percy's only "concern" is to save himself. In one fell swoop, Percy 
discredits Ginny's "important" news, questions her integrity and 
discredits Ron's concern for Ginny. A similar situation occurred  in 
PoA, Ch 13, where Percy disregards Ron's claims that Sirius Black was 
in his dormitory AND where Percy tells McGonagal that he not only did 
not authorize the gathering in the Common Room, but also, that 
Ron "had a nightmare". In both of these examples, Percy has jumped to 
a wrong conclusion while dismissing the credibility of his siblings 
and has attempted to save his reputation at the expense of his 
siblings reputations. (Ginny's "important" news couldn't possibly be 
about the Chamber and she can't be trusted with a secret; Ron only 
had a nightmare.) Moreover it shows that Percy follows his 
preconceived notions when assessing a situation rather than listening 
and sorting through the facts. Ron's response, to Hermione's comment 
that Percy wouldn't give any of his family to the Dementors, of "I 
don't know, " said Ron. "If he thought we were standing in the way of 
his career
Percy's really ambitious you know
"( GoF, Ch 27)
doesn't 
seem completely off the mark in light of Percy's history.

There is nothing completely wrong with following rules or authority 
figures and that is an admirable Percy trait. However, there is a 
danger when they are followed blindly. Here's a Percy quote from GoF, 
Ch 10 about Winky and her loyality to Crouch.

"Now look here, Hermione!" said Percy. "A high-ranking official like 
Mr. Crouch deserves unserving obedience from his servants---"

That quote sheds a very, very bright light on Percy's mentality: 
authority figures deserve not just plain ordinary obedience, but 
UNSERVING obedience. That is exactly what Percy gave to the Imperious 
cursed Crouch and is what made him the perfect pawn of the Dark Side, 
enabling them to succeed in their plan to control the Triwizard 
Tournament. I firmly believe a less rigid person would have found 
Crouch's extended holiday-illness and communications via post 
somewhat odd (Sirius was only following Crouch's behavior by the 
newspaper and HE thought something was odd and has Ron to write a 
letter to Percy concerning Crouch). I can easily see Percy uttering a 
similar sentence when he is told of Fudge's refusal to believe 
Voldemort's return ("Impossible! Cornelius Fudge is the Minister of 
Magic, the highest ranking official in the Ministry! He would never 
hide from us anything as important as You-Know-Who returning!"). 

I truly want Percy to side with Dumbledore and the rest of the 
Weasley's in the upcoming books. J. K. Rowling could have Percy see 
the light. But at this point, Percy's character can convincingly go 
either way.  

Demelza





From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar 25 03:49:46 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 21:49:46 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women
References: <99hhmg+9gou@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABD6ADA.4D5F383D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15115

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> Oh, well, we women will just have to understand therefore that we can
> only be 13% of the book..after all, it's the creative imagination....

Leavening in bread is considerably less than 13% of the whole
loaf....and the bread would fall flat without it! I subscribe to the
quality argument, over the quantity--the *overall* effect is not one of
bias, at least not to me. And there's still three books to go,
characters to meet, kids to get older, etc.!

> Funny that it's never the other way around

Oh, yes it is, and you know it! There's plenty of women-centric
literature out there. But anyone who's recently had a root canal can be
grumpy--we let pregnant women be, equal time, guys...

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar 25 04:27:55 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:27:55 -0600
Subject: Why Ginny? was Gender balance/strong women/victims)
References: <99hllm+oihp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABD73CB.879DF589@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15116

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> In fact, she was picked by Lucius Malfoy as a victim because she is
> the daughter of Arthur and Molly Weasley who are active combatants
> against Voldemort/Malfoy and their allows. If they had not been
> effective enemies of Riddle/Voldmort/Malfoy, Malfoy would not have
> bothered. Lucius Malfoy maliciously set up Ginny Weasley to discredit
> her parents.

I thought that Lucius selected Ginny because she was a Weasley, yes, but
because Arthur Weasley is well-known for his acceptance of Muggles.
Lucius is a big "pureblood" advocate, and the discrediting of the old,
distinguished Weasley name would have weakened the position of those who
favor accepting Muggles into wizarding society.

I thought Voldemort only entered into this as a means to an
end--Riddle's diary was supposed to use Ginny to loose the monster, kill
mudbloods, discredit her family, and perhaps bring down Hogwarts, the
gateway of Muggles into the wizarding world. I didn't think the Weasleys
having fought Voldemort had anything to do with the immediate action.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Mar 25 04:53:41 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 04:53:41 -0000
Subject: This Elf is Saying (filk)
Message-ID: <99jtkl+rd82@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15117

This Elf is Saying (from CoS, Chap. 2)

(To the tune of The Lady's Paying, from Lloyd Webber's Sunset 
Boulevard)

Dedicated to Amanda Lewanski

(The Scene: HARRY'S room on Privet Drive.  HARRY is full of self-pity 
as the summer drags on without a word from his classmates.  
Meanwhile, the Dursleys prepare to entertain the Masons, a rich 
builder VERNON hopes to do business with) 

HARRY(music)
This looks to be my most unhappy birthday yet
I've not received a single card or present
I can't expect a thing from the Dursleys of course
But no Hermione or Ron, now that I resent

(Enter UNCLE VERNON)

HARRY(spoken)
What's all this?

VERNON (spoken)
So what if it's your birthday? It's forgotten!

HARRY(spoken)
Well, I...

VERNON (spoken)
This is the most important dinner party we've ever held. You're to 
remain in your room for the day.

HARRY(spoken)
 Uncle Vernon, now listen....

VERNON(spoken)
 Boy, I'll leave you to it. 

(Exit VERNON)

HARRY (music)
I thought I had made bonds that time could never bend
With my new friends
But it seems that none of them have even missed me

(DOBBY suddenly appears on HARRY'S bed)

But what is this that I see standing on my bed
It bows its head
And looks as though it wishes to assist me

DOBBY
Dobby's here on a great quest

HARRY
The poor thing in dishrags is dressed 

DOBBY(bowing deeply)
You're a very noble wizard as each house-elf will attest
Now Dobby bows before you with a humble meek request
So very far from home is Dobby straying 
So listen please to what this elf is saying

HARRY
I'm glad to meet you Dobby, please now have a seat

DOBBY (bursting in tears)
He deigns to greet
Dobby as if he were his peer or equal
>From a wizard such regard is never seen
This kindness keen
Is without a predecessor or a sequal

Your goodness heralds your renown 
Your bold triumphs yet resound
Every elf wants to thank you
For your defeat of You-Know-Who
Dobby's come to tell you why 
That he cannot let you die
So no more at Hogwarts School can you be staying
Please listen sir to what this elf is saying

HARRY (simultaneously with last line)
I can't believe what I hear this elf saying

HARRY
Hogwarts to me is far more than just a school,
It's a renewal
The friends I've made there make my life much better

DOBBY
How can they be Harry's friends when they don't write?

(DOBBY accidentally releases a huge pile of letters from Ron, 
Hermione,and Hagrid)

HARRY
You tricky sprite
I see that you've purloined my every letter

DOBBY(snatching the letters back)
If Harry thought he'd lost his friends,
Then Hogwarts he'd not attend
He'd dodge a danger dark and vast that must destroy him in the end 
And Dobby must now tell you, though his Master he'll offend
That his Master these dark forces is conveying

(DOBBY looks startled, realizing he's said something he shouldn't)

Dobby cannot believe what he is saying 

(DOBBY begins banging his head violently. HARRY tries to stop him)

HARRY
Please now Dobby kindly do not bang your head
You'll wind up dead 
You'll give yourself a really bad concussion

DOBBY
When Dobby's bad it's clear that he 
Must punished be
Upon his skull compelled to play percussion 

A house-elf is by magic bound 
To say nothing that's unsound
Though the slightest hint of Master's crime is certain to astound
Dobby warrants discipline whenever it is found
That his Master's reputation he's betraying
So just ignore what this house-elf is saying 
(bangs his head a few more times)

HARRY:
Dobby, listen, please, I live with Muggles here
They hate and fear 
Each and everything that has to do with magic
They're entertaining quite important guests tonight

DOBBY
I must ignite
Them to save you from a fate that's far too tragic

(DOBBY races to the kitchen, with HARRY in close pursuit. As HARRY 
arrives, he sees that DOBBY is perilously levitating Aunt 
Petunia's "masterpiece of a pudding" at ceiling level)

HARRY
Don't levitate the pudding bowl
Uncle Vern will lose control

DOBBY
Ask Hogwarts to remove your name off their attendance roll

HARRY
I don't care what else may happen, but Hogwarts is my life and soul

DOBBY
Now gravity that bowl must start obeying
Because Harry scorns what this elf is saying

(DOBBY causes the bowl to crash, sending pudding flying in every 
direction, and enveloping HARRY in it. DOBBY vanishes abruptly, just 
as UNCLE VERNON rushes in).

VERNON(dragging HARRY to his room)
The Masons fled in terror when they saw your bird 
Deliver word
That magic done outside school they prohibit
Now let's see if magic helps you leave your room
You may presume
Your movement hence we strictly shall inhibit

(VERNON places bars upon HARRY's windows, and then locks him inside 
his room)

HARRY
Now I'm under lock and bar
But here's a sight nothing can mar
Right outside my window I see Ron inside in a magic car

RON, GEORGE AND FRED
Climb right on board Harry, and you'll fly with us so far

HARRY AND RON
This evening Uncle Vern I'll/you'll be defying
And in the Weasley's car I/you shall be flying

(FRED and GEORGE non-magically remove the bars, and help HARRY climb 
in)

HARRY
An evening with an elf can be quite trying. 

(Exit all skywards)

    - CMC




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 25 05:09:24 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:09:24 -0600
Subject: UK/US Comic Relief Books 
Message-ID: <008201c0b4e9$c35ff7c0$2314a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15118

I thought that the US Comic Relief Books were small ... then I got my UK editions. Holy snips, Batman! They are a half inch shorter and an inch less wide than the US books. The color of the UK edition is  a lighter green too. The paragraphs under Dumbledore's signature are different too.

The "With thanks" page is totally different. The US edition has a whole page on the back inside cover written by JKR thanking us for buying the book and supporting the charity, etc.

Doreen, who got 3 of her 6 British editions today and is loving all the changes



I can explain to you, but I can't understand it for you. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 25 05:32:25 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:32:25 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Moving Pictures
References: <99ja51+foj4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ba01c0b4ec$fa8251a0$2314a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15119

I think to some extent it's a play on the idea that a photograph can
steal someone's soul.  The person's image retains some trace of their
personality, and therefore behaves like the person would behave.
That's why Harry's photographic self in CoS (in the pic Colin took
with Harry and Lockhart) was trying to hide outside of the boundaries
of the picture - because Harry didn't/wouldn't want to be there.
The thing I keep wondering about is where Lockhart's photographic
selves got the hair rollers!

kimberly

*  *  *  *  *  *  *
That one is easy! Lockhart's photographic selves hike down to the Fat Lady's
portrait and borrow them. They probably trade an autographed copy of, Great
Heroic Photos" for them. :)

Doreen
*   *  *  *  *  *  *






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From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 25 05:39:54 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:39:54 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry- the girl & Riddle's diary
References: <99jd2b+psr4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c801c0b4ee$19d9e3a0$2314a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15120

AprilGC asked:
If Harry were a girl, would Ginny have gotten much story space at all?
In PS/SS, we first learn that Ginny is a "fan" of Harry.  Preceding that
line of thought...

What do you think would have been the story line/outcome of CoS had
Harry been female?  I mean, what major points do you see remaining the
same, and what do you think would change?

*  *  *  *  *   *  *  *
I think that someone like Neville or Colin Creevy would have fit into
"Ginny's role" just as easily if Harry were a girl.

Therefore, no major points would have been changed.

Doreen






From LavenderChic at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 25 05:42:03 2001
From: LavenderChic at hotmail.com (Rachel Taylor)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 00:42:03 -0500
Subject: New Person/burning questions and comments
Message-ID: <F270RMWuLn5U9T3TGJ200009c46@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15121



Hello everyone,

I have been reading posts for a few days now, not to mention some back in 
September that my sister made me read... anyway, i wanted to say that i do 
enjoy reading everyones ideas and theorys.  i also wanted to say to the 
creator of the Lexicon, that you did a great job-that must have been a ton 
of work, i should know, i spent about a month straight writeing down 
charater names, descriptions, places, magical objects etc... i am not going 
to be tricked again like with the Mrs Figg thing... This time i will notice 
and not have to be told....So good job!

Oh yeah, my point... I was wondering if there is another protection on Harry 
that lets the MoM always know where he is.... Did Fudge just assume that 
Harry would go to Diagon Alley, or was he tipped by this?  Could there be a 
map, similar to the Mauders (sp?) map that show all of the people in the 
wizarding world?

I apologize if this has come up before, just direct me to the file.




_________________________________________________________________
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From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 05:56:38 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 05:56:38 -0000
Subject: Is Draco evil?
Message-ID: <99k1am+tjs2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15122

I've been catching up on messages and so these thoughts my seem a 
little old, but I thought I'd post them anyway.

We've been asking whether Draco is evil, or at least irredeemable. I 
don't think he is, yet, and have stated this. All of us, or most of 
us also seem to know that canon Draco and fanon draco are seperate 
entities.

The question I have however is not whether we as readers think Draco 
is evil, or whether H,R,and H think that Draco is evil, but whether 
Draco believes that his own actions are evil. Of course the obvious 
answer is no. Draco has to believe that what he is saying and doing 
is right, or else it would be so emphatic. Then again has he ever had 
the reason to question it. As far as Draco can tell he *has* picked 
the winning side. All he's ever heard tells him that people like 
Hermione (muggle born mudbloods) don't deserve to be at Hogwarts, and 
so he wouldn't even describe himself as a bigot. 

Draco actually is A LOT like the Fundamentalistswho try to band Harry 
Potter books. He considers his position right and doesn't want to 
hear other people's sides of things or look at there view. 

Anywho in any characterisation of Draco it seems important to note 
that he isn't doing these things thinking "I am evil" but instead 
truly believes he is right.




Scott






From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 06:06:45 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 06:06:45 -0000
Subject: Ghost and Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <99jg8t+pqnr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99k1tl+7c0u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15123

MMMfanfic at h... wrote:
"My friend and I were brainstorming about a fitting end for 
everyone's  favourite dark lord and his pursue of immortality.  One 
of us  mentioned JKR's comment about ghost: What if Voldemort become 
a  *gasp* ghost? We're told that we are not supposed to find out how 
ghosts work until 
book 7.  This scenario  will be very ironical and comical because 
Ghosts are immortal (be careful what you wish for); JKR is adamant 
that there is no resurrection and once you are dead, you are dead; 
Ghosts as seen from the past books, have so far demontrated no 
magical power."

--In my last post I put something about those who try to 'band' the 
HP books. That should obviously be 'ban'. (I was chatting with 
someone about their band, my mistake.)

This is an interesting thought, and a posibility, so I'm not saying 
that it couldn't happen, but Voldemort would still be a nusiance, and 
not a threat if he was around, but a ghost. Besides wouldn't 
anticlimactic if there was a big battle and yet Voldy doesn't go 
anywhere.

Hmmm.

Scott
Who has lots to say on the gender balance thread but is too tired to 
think clearly about it.





From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Mar 25 06:21:04 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 06:21:04 -0000
Subject: Pomfrey and Gender balance/strong women Madam  Pomfrey in particular
In-Reply-To: <3ABCF7DA.4D61978D@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99k2og+o5jv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15124

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Rina Stewart wrote:
> 
> > Amanda wrote: Why is being viewed as a leader so important? Why 
are
> > you only
> > important> as a woman if you can be viewed favorably through a
> > traditionally
> > > male-role lens? Why try to be female men, instead of very strong
> > women> doing what they want to do (which may be raising kids or 
being
> > a
> > school> nurse)?
> > >
> >
> > Susan responded:
> > <<But why would you say that a leader is a "female man"?>>
> >
> > I don't think that was what she was getting at. I could be wrong, 
of
> > course, but this is my take on it - you don't have to be a leader 
to
> > be a strong woman. You can be a strong woman, a strong character, 
and
> > be a mom. Molly Weasley is a strong woman character, but she's 
not a
> > headmaster or minister of magic. She doesn't need to be, she's 
strong
> > on her own. It seems like people are saying that the women in HP
> > aren't strong because they're not in positions of leadership, but 
I
> > disagree. They are strong because of who they are, not what their 
job
> > is, and that's the bottom line, IMO.
> 
> Thank you ever so much, Rina, that's exactly what I meant and now I



Great. That's my bottom line, too. Molly is an incredibly strong 
woman. I love her. I think she's great.

In no possible way am I saying that the women in HP are not strong 
women. Lily, Molly, Hermione, Minerva are strong women..YES! They are 
GREAT...
and I would never, ever say they are not strong because they are not 
in positions or leadership.
I would never, ever devalue any woman's role or contribution.

Let me try again..
Why are all the people who are in positions of leadership men?
Why are the VAST MAJORITY of the characters who are pivotal, 
important, in cental  roles  --- MEN?
Why are the vast majority of the characters who are compelling, 
exciting, cool -- MEN..?
Sure, the 13% of characters who are women are wonderful, exciting, 
amazing, and I love them..
BUT why are all the important actors in the drama - MEN?
After all, this is fiction.
Why can't we envision a world in which some of the leaders and actors 
are WOMEN?
Why are women too often relegated to the role of helpmeet, mother, 
girlfriend, wife, crush.....?

NO ONE has answered the question -- where are the men who stay home
with the children?
where are the men who are basically the supporters of the women who 
act?
where are men whose primary role is NURTURANCE?
And who have no other major role?


NO ONE has answered the question about fantasies about adult 
women/men in fanfiction.......

Please understand that I want to have dialogue and respectful
interchange about the role of men/boys and women/girls in HP.
I have no intention to offend anyone and apologize if I have
done so.  

I love this list. I think the moderators are doing a wonderful job
and that the members are awesome.

In OUR house, we often toast -- Harry Potter! The Boy Who Lived!

Susan McGee, delighted mother of James Jesse March McGee, 3.5 years 
(who today put on his purple cloak and hat, and proclaimed that he 
was 'Harry Powder' and that he had his broomstick and was on his way 
to play Quidditch, and told me that his sister was Hermione and and 
my partner was Ron, and that I was Albus Dumbledore..) and Eleanor 
Genevieve March McGee aged 18 months who has not yet figured out who 
Harry Potter is..







From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 25 07:32:56 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:32:56 -0800
Subject: Ginny/Girl Harry - Ghosts - Draco's grades - genealogy - more
Message-ID: <3ABD9F27.A74601AB@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15125

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aprilgc at i... wrote:
> If Harry were a girl, would Ginny have gotten much story space at
> all? In PS/SS, we first learn that Ginny is a "fan" of Harry.  In
> CoS, Riddle learns all about Harry's exploits because Ginny writes
> about him.  If Ginny were not in the throes of a crush - if Harry
> were "just" a famous girl instead of a "heroic" boy (using the
> viewpoint of an 11 year old girl, here, not making any political
> statements), would Ginny have filled the pages of her diary with
> information about she-Harry?

An 11 year old girl can hero-worship a female hero (there is such a
thing as an asexual "crush", altho' I am leaping to the conclusion that
JKR wouldn't have made her a lesbian). Just like a heterosexual boy can
hero-worship a male hero: I do not consider Ron's desire to get Krumm to
sit at their table to have anything to do with sexual orientation.
Probably straight Ginny wouldn't have sent a singing Valentine to
girl-Harry is all.

> Preceding that line of thought... If Harry were a girl, would
> Lucius have given the diary to Ginny?  I mean, why not deliver
> "Riddle's" enemy right to Riddle?

You appear to be assuming that Lucius was determined to give the diary
to a girl. I believe that Lucius's first plan was to put the diary into
a text book on the shelf so that any random student, of any sex, would
be its victim, as the goal was to get the basilisk released and the
diary's victim was just a means to an end. I believe that Lucius got the
idea of giving the diary to Ginny when he saw the opportunity right
after his fight with Arthur, and his thought was to kill two birds with
one stone by 1) getting the book into the school as planned and 2)
hurting Arthur by harming Arthur's child. I believe he would have given
it to one of Arthur's sons just the same if that was the opportunity
that had presented itself. Admittedly, Ginny's youth may have made her
seem a more gullible target, but Ron is only one year older and surely
would have suited Lucius just as well.

> Question about Riddle:
> He says that he and Harry are both "halfbloods" (CoS chapter 17).
> How? Both Harry's parents are magic.  If this has already been
> answered, please point me to the answer/thread.

This has already been discussed but I don't remember when or where.
Apparently the bigots call a Muggle-born witch or wizard a Muggle. In
GoF during the riot at the World Cup, didn't Draco tell Hermione to get
out of the way because she's a Muggle and Ron said indignantly "Hermione
is a witch!"?

MMMfanfic wrote:
> What if Voldemort become a *gasp* ghost? (snip)
> Ghosts are immortal (be careful what you wish for);

Are ghosts immortal? Here in the Muggle world, people who believe that
ghosts are persons (as distinguished from some kind of video projected
on the astral ether) usually believe that there are ways to 'lay'
ghosts; that is, to politely inform them that they are dead or to
satisfy the need for which they are hanging around (e.g. vengeance on
their murderer) or otherwise to let them leave this life and proceed to
whatever one believes in in the way of an afterlife. Which sounds a lot
like 'die'. I often wonder whether there is a way to lay ghosts in the
Potterverse because Moaning Myrtle is *so* unhappy that I wish to put
her out of her misery. JKR did say that one clue as to why SOME witches
and wizards become ghosts was 'ghosts aren't the happiest people
obviously'. What might be the stories of the House ghosts, such as
Nearly Headless Nick and the Bloody Baron?

Celeste Chang wrote:

> I think Draco can still be second in their class, or equally high up
> there, however. Lucius may have been referring to the fact that Draco
> isn't number one-

Yes! "I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard
family beat you in every exam," snapped Mr. Malfoy." If Draco came in
second only to Hermione, that is pretty good marks. (Altho' it could be
argued that Draco's marks were very average and Lucius was not upset
about his son being surpassed by purebloods.) Also, in a previous
discussion, some people said that if Draco came in second to Hermione in
Potions, then Snape must be fairer at grading than he is at most
everything else.

Little Alex wrote:
> Just wondering, though, how many generations would it take
> for someone to become a 'pure' blood?  I mean, *Lily* is the
> one with Muggle parents; both of Harry parents are wizard/witch.
> But if Harry is still 'impure' by the DE's standards...

Some previous time, someone asserted that it takes nine generations of
ancestry to be considered pureblood, based on the fact that in CoS,
Ernie Macmillan (?) says he isn't a target because he can trace his
ancestry for nine generations of witches and warlocks (raising the OTHER
question, is 'warlock' merely a synonym for 'wizard'?) and someone else
asserted that having even one great-grandparent who was Muggle makes you
'impure'. The latter correlates with the Nazi law on Jews. *counts on
fingers* that would make Harry's grand-son still Halfblood but his
great-grandson Pureblood (assigning all the spouses were Pureblood).

Doreen wrote:
> The paragraphs under Dumbledore's signature are different too.

Do you mean the paragraphs OVER Dumbledore's signature, ie that he
wrote? If yes, probably someone needs to post the US and UK versions in
our Files section so people can get clues by comparing them.

> Lockhart's photographic selves hike down to the Fat Lady's portrait
and borrow them [the hair rollers].

LOL funny, but I think factually wrong: I think the moving photographs
are almost like videos, except with more freedom of movement (like the
Catz! running around in one window on my desktop), but the people in the
paintings at Hogwarts appear to be real persons with minds of their own.

Susan wrote:
> Why are all the people who are in positions of leadership men?
> (snip) After all, this is fiction.
> Why can't we envision a world in which some of the leaders
> and actors are WOMEN? (snip)
> NO ONE has answered the question -- where are the men who
> stay home with the children?
> where are the men who are basically the supporters of the
> women who act?

This is fiction, but it is not a utopia. There are bad things about the
depicted wizarding society. The whole wizarding society takes it for
granted that House Elves like being bond-servants (with the exception of
heroic figures like Sirius who allow as how owners should not abuse
their dogs, I mean Elves) but Hermione questions it. Even good guys in
the wizarding society seem to look down on Muggles -- Arthur loves
Muggles (how de-personalizing! not distinguishing between a Muggle who
is lovable and a Nazi Muggle) but speaks of them in a patronizing way.
We have speculated that that will change because of the role of Muggles
as well as Muggle-borns in the future defeat of V. Maybe the 1950ish
roles of witches are another defect which Hermione will take up arms
against.

Nitpick: SOME of the leaders and actors ARE women. Hermione, McGonagall,
Molly, Madame Maxime --Headmistress IS an OFFICIAL  leadership position.
For that matter, so is Head of House. Your complaint is that so few of
the leaders and actors are women that it amounts to tokenism. I'm old
enough to be grateful that there is AT LEAST tokenism, and I think I've
noticed that the fanfic writers, almost all younger than me, take it for
granted that witches will have exciting careers.
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 07:56:03 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:56:03 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moving Pictures
References: <002501c0b48b$544d9bc0$c7a10e41@mtgmry1.md.home.com>
Message-ID: <002801c0b501$0bac2640$90561c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 15126

Joy wrote:

> I was listening to the audio version of CoS last night (my new
regimen is a
> chapter every night before bed... it's delightful), and a question
occurred
> to me.  How do the moving photographs know which way to move?  What
do you
> guys think?  I mean, obviously it's magic, so there's no real
explanation,
> but... Does the subject have to be moving at the time the picture is
taken?
> Or does the film somehow know how each person would normally move,
and
> duplicates past movements?  Does every picture repeat the same
motion over
> and over, or do they have a whole repertoire?  It's amazing to me
that all
> of these wizard photographs have movements in them that fit both the
> individual and the circumstances under which the picture was taken.

When Collin Creevy takes his pictures of Harry, he mentions that when
the film is developed a certain way, the pictures start moving.
So, I'd say, "it's magic"

Rena



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From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Sun Mar 25 11:10:15 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:10:15 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: gender balence/strong women 
Message-ID: <01C0B570.1C5570E0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 15127

Hi everyone, I've been very quiet on this topic but here goes ....

Susan said:
Let me try again..
Why are all the people who are in positions of leadership men?
Why are the VAST MAJORITY of the characters who are pivotal,
important, in central  roles  --- MEN?
Why are the vast majority of the characters who are compelling,
exciting, cool -- MEN..?
Sure, the 13% of characters who are women are wonderful, exciting,
amazing, and I love them..
BUT why are all the important actors in the drama - MEN?
After all, this is fiction.
Why can't we envision a world in which some of the leaders and actors
are WOMEN?
----------------------
Storm:
We *can*, JKR *hasn't* (at least not this time)

We can think about JKR and wonder about what influences she has had on her to 
write this story this way. We can talk about English society (since that's 
where JKR grew up) and how it molds women and the stories we/they write but I 
don't think we can get any further than that in terms of discovering in this 
story strong public roles for women.
----------------------
Susan said: NO ONE has answered the question -- where are the men who stay home
with the children?
where are the men who are basically the supporters of the women who
act?
where are men whose primary role is NURTURANCE?
And who have no other major role?
----------------------
Storm: They aren't in this story, just like the people with significant 
disabilities aren't there (damn!) and the non english speaking people aren't 
there and a whole range of other people aren't there. I wish they were, I would 
love to see how JKR handled them, but they aren't. That's just how it is.  This 
doesn't mean that they are not there in JKR/Harry's world, just that ole POV 
problem strikes again.

----------------------
Susan: NO ONE has answered the question about fantasies about adult
women/men in fanfiction.......
----------------------
storm: ok, I don't understand what you are saying here. I thought you didn't 
read fanfiction. Maybe I missed this post.
----------------------


storm





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 25 11:14:53 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:14:53 -0000
Subject: QTA Question
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010324144249.02f2f350@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <99kjvd+81v2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15128

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> On page 39 it says that the first Quidditch World Cup was
> in 1473 and that they are held every four years.  So how can
> the QWC in GoF be the 422nd one??
> 

It was annual up into the 20th century and then they changed it to 
once every four years?

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
 The [Chudley Cannons'] motto was changed in 1972
 from 'We shall conquer' to 'Let's all just keep
 our fingers crossed and hope for the best'.
                      -Quidditch Through the Ages
--------------------------------------------------




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 11:56:49 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 03:56:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pomfrey and Gender balance/strong women Madam  Pomfrey in particular
In-Reply-To: <99k2og+o5jv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010325115649.48548.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15129

> Let me try again..
> Why are all the people who are in positions of leadership men?
> Why are the VAST MAJORITY of the characters who are pivotal, 
> important, in cental  roles  --- MEN?
> Why are the vast majority of the characters who are compelling, 
> exciting, cool -- MEN..?
> Sure, the 13% of characters who are women are wonderful, exciting, 
> amazing, and I love them..
> BUT why are all the important actors in the drama - MEN?
> After all, this is fiction.
> Why can't we envision a world in which some of the leaders and
> actors are WOMEN?
> Why are women too often relegated to the role of helpmeet, mother, 
> girlfriend, wife, crush.....?
> 
> NO ONE has answered the question -- where are the men who stay home
> with the children?
> where are the men who are basically the supporters of the women who
> act? where are men whose primary role is NURTURANCE?
> And who have no other major role?


Because these are the books she wrote and that's how she wrote them.

I'm not unsympathetic to your questions or your concerns but it's
really a lot to ask of one particular writer that she create a
perfectly balanced world in her fiction.  She's writing a story for
children and children under the age of about ten can identify with a
child protagonist who is negotiating a series of challenges and
obstacles in the adult world.

There was a thread here recently talking about whether HP is fantasy
or science fiction.  I would suggest it is neither: it is children's
literature of a sort the British seem to have a genius for and it
describes the challenges every child faces in growing up.  What are
Boggarts but the fears that every child has and needs to confront? 
What is the mudblood/pureblood controvery but the prejudice every
child experiences on the playground directed at him/herself or at
others?  

We have to make an effort to think like children again when we read
these books - back to the time when adults did all kinds of
irrational things that we didn't understand and magic might just have
been one of them.  Had JKR been writing books for adults, she might
have created something different.

But she didn't.  At least not yet.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 25 13:05:39 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:05:39 -0000
Subject: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
In-Reply-To: <20010325115649.48548.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99kqf3+5nus@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15130

Susan wrote:

> > Let me try again..
> > Why are all the people who are in positions of leadership men?
> > Why are the VAST MAJORITY of the characters who are pivotal, 
> > important, in cental  roles  --- MEN?
> > Why are the vast majority of the characters who are compelling, 
> > exciting, cool -- MEN..?
> > Sure, the 13% of characters who are women are wonderful, exciting, 
> > amazing, and I love them..
> > BUT why are all the important actors in the drama - MEN?

(not all of them, Susan!  Say "most"--or Hermione will getcha)

> > After all, this is fiction.
> > Why can't we envision a world in which some of the leaders and
> > actors are WOMEN?
> > Why are women too often relegated to the role of helpmeet, mother, 
> > girlfriend, wife, crush.....?
> > 
> > NO ONE has answered the question -- where are the men who stay 
home
> > with the children?
> > where are the men who are basically the supporters of the women 
who
> > act? where are men whose primary role is NURTURANCE?
> > And who have no other major role?

Magda wrote:

> Because these are the books she wrote and that's how she wrote them.
> 
> I'm not unsympathetic to your questions or your concerns but it's
> really a lot to ask of one particular writer that she create a
> perfectly balanced world in her fiction.  

I can't speak for Susan, but I don't read her questions as a list of 
demands for JKR.  I read them as a reminder to those who maintain that 
the books' balance of strong, complex, and male female and male 
characters is not off that there are many points they haven't 
addressed.  Take a long step back and look at the characters, and you 
see a few female characters along these lines, and many more male 
characters.  Look for the usual signs of traditional gender roles and 
they are legion.

We are all spending a lot of our time in this fictional world, sharing 
its vision, and one way and another, the questions we ask over and 
over again are:  what does this writer's vision tell us about our 
world?  It mostly tells us terrific, empowering, thought-provoking, 
life-complexifying things.  It unfortunately also tells boys and girls 
that the roles of girls and women are rather limited--that powerful 
women who are likeable and successful in nontraditional roles are in 
a minority.  Not all books do this.

I hate to have a dispute with any author I love this much, but on the 
other hand I've never found an author I could agree with 100%.  There 
is always something that I see as a flaw, and understanding what the 
flaw is and why it bothers me is as enlightening as understanding the 
author's wonderful themes and characters and why they speak to me.  If 
I loved 5% of what JKR did and disliked 95%, I wouldn't read her.  But 
the proportions, happily, are reversed, and I will enjoy the 95% and 
not cover up, but take note of, the other 5%.

One day I'll be reading these books to a child of mine, and if he or 
she notices that almost all the MOM officials are men, I hope I will 
say, "You're right, honey--that really stinks!  Those wizards need to 
get with the program, don't they?" instead of "Honey, you're imagining 
things," or "Come on, a FEW of them are women," or "JKR is such a good 
author, let's not disagree with her."

Amy Z




From indigo at indigosky.net  Sun Mar 25 13:39:52 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:39:52 -0000
Subject: Is Draco evil?
In-Reply-To: <99k1am+tjs2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ksf8+5t87@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15131

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:
> I've been catching up on messages and so these thoughts my seem a 
> little old, but I thought I'd post them anyway.
> 
> We've been asking whether Draco is evil, or at least irredeemable. 
I 
> don't think he is, yet, and have stated this. All of us, or most of 
> us also seem to know that canon Draco and fanon draco are seperate 
> entities.
> 
> Anywho in any characterisation of Draco it seems important to note 
> that he isn't doing these things thinking "I am evil" but instead 
> truly believes he is right.
> 
Except that's true of a lot of people the world describes as evil. 

They believe they're right to be doing whatever they're doing but the 
rest of the world perceives their actions as evil.

That may be insanity talking, or a skewed worldview from a twisted 
upbringing like Draco's.  But the character believing himself evil is 
really academic, IMHO to the question of evil.

"Death Eaters" for instance is not a name that registers in the mind 
as 'good,' and while ambition for power is neither good nor evil, the 
way the Death Eaters use their powers --to kill and torment and hunt 
the Muggles -- is definitely evil.

Draco may have been raised to believe that it's okay to kill Muggles 
and 'Mudbloods'.   It's clear Draco doesn't think of them as not-
people; but instead as a much lower class of people.

But killing for sport rather than nourishment or self defense, 
qualifies as evil, to me.  Draco is not a stupid boy.  There would 
have to be a point, if not already happened, about to -- where he'd 
realize this. 

I don't think believing oneself evil is prerequisite for actually 
BEING evil.







From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Mar 25 14:59:40 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:59:40 -0600
Subject: Gender balance (Children v Adult Lit)
References: <20010325115649.48548.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ABE07DC.7A4F087E@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15132

Hi --

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> I'm not unsympathetic to your questions or your concerns but it's
> really a lot to ask of one particular writer that she create a
> perfectly balanced world in her fiction.  She's writing a story for
> children and children under the age of about ten can identify with a
> child protagonist who is negotiating a series of challenges and
> obstacles in the adult world.

<The members who've been part of the group for more than a few months
cringe & cover up their ears as they await the screams pouring forth
from Houston>:

No!  No!  JKR has said repeatedly that she did *not* write PS or any of
the other books with any target audience in mind.  They were not written
*for* children.  She has said on several occasions that the only thing
she had in mind was that she was writing a book that she herself would
enjoy reading (she was an adult when she wrote them, so one can infer
that she at least thought some adults would enjoy them).  She's been
asked if she's surprised at her large adult following.  She responded
that she was surprised only at the numbers of her fans, not the ages.

She has also been asked if she plans to "tone down" her books, bearing
in mind the sensibilities or what have you of her younger fans.  She has
vehemently stated that she will not do this.  She has a plan for these
books, and she's not planning to vary from it to accomodate younger
readers.  She's been critical of parents who let their children read
them at too young an age.

I'm not saying that children can't or shouldn't enjoy the books.
Certainly they do & they should.  But, the books were not ever created
solely for this audience, and I think the legions of adult fans (1100+
members of this group alone) are testament to the fact that you can't
pigeonhole these books into the category of being children's
literature.  You also can't write off their flaws by saying, "Well, you
know, they're just childrens's books after all."

I am utterly convinced that the only reason that these books are viewed
as children's literature is because Bloomsbury's marketing department
decided to put the 9-12 age tag on them since the protagonist of PS was
11 yrs old.

BTW, there's a FAQ that covers this topic in more detail.  I say it's a
FAQ, but really it's probably more of an essay written by me that
compiles all the messages I've posted on this subject over the last 1.5
yrs.  <g>

> I would suggest it is neither: it is children's
> literature of a sort the British seem to have a genius for and it
> describes the challenges every child faces in growing up.  What are
> Boggarts but the fears that every child has and needs to confront?
> What is the mudblood/pureblood controvery but the prejudice every
> child experiences on the playground directed at him/herself or at
> others?

Children are the only ones with fears that need to be confronted?  As an
adult, one has no more "boggarts" to confront?  The mudblood/pureblood
controversy extends a great deal further than just as commentary on
"playground disputes" IMHO.  It's certainly commentary on racism and
other issues that extend way beyond the "playground."

> We have to make an effort to think like children again when we read
> these books - back to the time when adults did all kinds of
> irrational things that we didn't understand and magic might just have
> been one of them.  Had JKR been writing books for adults, she might
> have created something different.
>
> But she didn't.  At least not yet.

She did.  She created books that can be enjoyed by children and adults
alike.  They were not intended for children, and there is absolutely no
need to revert back to childhood thinking to enjoy these books or
understand their messages.

They do on some level transport one back to childhood, and they are
great fun!  But, I object most strenuously to the notion that they are
"just" children's books and that adults are trying to read too much into
them.  There would be no point for this discussion group at all if the
themes and characters were all simplistic (not that I'm saying that all
childrens' lit is simplistic -- it's definitely not.  But, that is how
I'm interpreting Magda's statements).

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Sun Mar 25 15:30:07 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:30:07 -0000
Subject: Harrys POV versa facts (was: Re: Courses)
Message-ID: <99l2tv+j8dr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15135

I wrote:
> > > 
> >  It is said that Hermione "took nobody?s advice but signed up for 
> > everything". By doing that she had to study arithmancy, ancient 
> > runes, care of magical creatures, divination and muggle-studies

> Amy wrote:
 
> Or it might just be our narrator being a wiseass.  He and Ron, 
being 
> sane, balanced, and also lazy, signed up for two new courses; she 
> signed up for five; that equals "everything" from Harry's POV.
> 
 How long can we stretch the Harry-POV? I mean, the story isn?t told 
by him. Its told by an allwise narrator, describing the 
characters. And the narrator doesn?t say: "Hermione signed up for so 
many courses that Harry/Ron thought she must have covered them all" - 
it is said that Hermione signed up for everything. 

Or do you mean that fact and Harrys personal impression is mixed 
without this being stated in the text???

/Jennifer (horribly confused, since she always relies heavily on 
facts...)










From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 25 15:54:14 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:54:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] UK/US edtions QTA & more
References: <3ABD9F27.A74601AB@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <009301c0b543$d838a0c0$1014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15136

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Catlady" <catlady at wicca.net>

Doreen wrote:
> The paragraphs under Dumbledore's signature are different too.

Catlady wrote:

Do you mean the paragraphs OVER Dumbledore's signature, ie that he
wrote? If yes, probably someone needs to post the US and UK versions in
our Files section so people can get clues by comparing them.

**************************
Doreen wrote: 

No, I mean the paragraphs UNDER Dumbledore's signature .. 

**************************

US edition QTA back cover, under Dumbledore's signature:

J.K. ROWLING and SCHOLASTIC INC.'s net proceeds from the sale of this book will go to the Harry's Books fund to help needy children in the poorest countries in the world.

www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks

* * * * * * * * 
UK edition QTA back cover, under Dumbledore's signature:

Comic Relief will give the money it gets from the sale of this book to projects helping some of the poorest and most vulnerable people in the poorest countries of the world. 

**************
(this is just over the bar code on the UK edition ONLY)

At least ?2 from the sale of this book will go to Comic Relief 

**************
The price under the bar code on the UK QTA is: 
?2.50 (14 Sickles 3 Knuts)
**************
The price under the bar code on the US QTA is:

$3.99 US (14 Sickles 3 Knuts)
*************

(this is just under the price in the UK edition ONLY)

World Book Day ?1 tokens are not redeemable against the charity book (UK and Ireland) 

***************
I will be happy to look anything up for comparison sake for anyone who wishes to find a particular passage as soon as the rest of my books get here... which should be Monday. I have UK & US edtions of PoA, GoF, QTA.

Doreen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 16:02:33 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:02:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance (Children v Adult Lit)
In-Reply-To: <3ABE07DC.7A4F087E@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010325160233.39611.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15137

> But, I object most strenuously to the notion that they
> are "just" children's books and that adults are trying to read too 
> much into them.  There would be no point for this discussion group 
> at all if the themes and characters were all simplistic (not that 
> I'm saying that all childrens' lit is simplistic -- it's definitely

> not.  But, that is how I'm interpreting Magda's statements).
> 
> Penny

Then you misunderstood what I was saying.  Nowhere in my post did I
use the phrase "just children's books" or that "adults are trying to
read too much into them".  I think children's literature is as
important as any other sort.  When I referred to the British sort of
children's literature, I meant the kind you can read as an adult and
still appreciate.  




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/



From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 25 16:24:28 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:24:28 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] UK/US edtions QTA & more
References: <3ABD9F27.A74601AB@wicca.net> <009301c0b543$d838a0c0$1014a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <00a401c0b548$12f82920$1014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15138

Doreen wrote:

On the back, inside cover of the US edition of QTA, there is a letter from and signed by JKR. This is not in the UK edition.

As follows:

     About Comic Relief: A note from J. K. Rowling
Comic Relief is one of Britain's most famous and successful charities. Begun in 1985, the organization has raised more than $250,000,000 for such charities as the Red Cross, Oxfam, Sight Savers, the International HIV/AIDS Alliance, and Anti-Slavery International. The Harry Potter books represent a new opportunity in Comic Relief's quest to make a meaningful difference in people's lives. A special Harry's Books fund has been created where proceeds from the sale of Quidditch Through the Ages and Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them will go to support children's causes throughout the world. Every book sold counts! Fifty cents will send a child to school for a week -- and change his or her life forever.

     Log on to www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks and see how the money from the purchase of these books is being used to help others. The Harry's Books fund will support such efforts as the education of children,  the fight against child slavery, and the reuniting of parents and children separated by war. The fund will also educate people about the AIDS/HIV epidemic and will support child victims of landmine explosions.

    What is so wonderful about Comic Relief is that its costs are sponsored, therefore it does not take money for its own administration from the money given by the public. This means that in fact, because of accumulated interest, more than 100% of the money it raises it passes on to charity projects.

    I have always had a sneaking desire to write Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them and Quidditch Through the Ages, so when Richard Curtis of Comic Relief wrote to me, I thought it was a wonderful opportunity to help a charity I have always supported. Everyone involved with bringing these books to fruition, the publishers, vendors, and retailers, has enabled the contribution of a substantial proportion of the cover price of these books to Comic Relief's Harry's Books fund.

Thank you for buying this book!

(signed JK Rowling signature)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sun Mar 25 16:31:04 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:31:04 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Ginny/Girl Harry - Ghosts - Draco's grades - genealogy - moving Photo people
References: <3ABD9F27.A74601AB@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <00ac01c0b548$fd81f840$1014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15139

----- Original Message -----
From: "Catlady" <catlady at wicca.net>

> Lockhart's photographic selves hike down to the Fat Lady's portrait
and borrow them [the hair rollers].

LOL funny, but I think factually wrong: I think the moving photographs
are almost like videos, except with more freedom of movement (like the
Catz! running around in one window on my desktop), but the people in the
paintings at Hogwarts appear to be real persons with minds of their own.

Yes, I think I remember reading that ... but I could not resist. Just like,
while reading the posts about the gender situation in JKR's books, when
Madam Pomfrey was discussed... as to whether she is a doctor or a nurse, I
was tempted to ask if that would make her a "witch doctor." I resisted
because the discussion was taking such a serious note.

JKR brings out my sense of humor and wandering thoughts more so than most
authors. This crazy group does a lot towards that end too. I have to chuckle
every time I read a post from Pigwidgeon or Flying Ford Anglia. I have sworn
AT my car on occasion, but never talked TO a car until now.

Doreen, the Cornpatch Witch




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Sun Mar 25 17:01:46 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:01:46 -0000
Subject: Harry- the girl & Riddle's diary
In-Reply-To: <00c801c0b4ee$19d9e3a0$2314a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99l89q+njju@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15140

 AprilGC asked:
> If Harry were a girl, would Ginny have gotten much story space at all?
> In PS/SS, we first learn that Ginny is a "fan" of Harry.  Preceding that line of thought...
> 
> What do you think would have been the story line/outcome of CoS had
> Harry been female?  I mean, what major points do you see remaining the
> same, and what do you think would change?
> 
> *  *  *  *  *   *  *  *
> > Doreen wrote:
I think that someone like Neville or Colin Creevy would have fit into
> "Ginny's role" just as easily if Harry were a girl.
> 
> Therefore, no major points would have been changed.
> 

The situation, though, took a lot of planning on Lucius Malfoy's part.  
He didn't just pick Ginny Weasely randomly.  He chose her because her 
disgrace could have the most devastating effect.
The Weasely's are old/respected wizard family.
Arthur "likes" Muggles.
Arthur has a "Muggle Protection Act" pending.
Making a Weasely the "Heir of Slytherin" casts a shadow over the whole 
Weasely heritage - as well as discrediting Arthur and squashing his 
MPA.
LM could get rid of/discredit Dumbledore.

Neville as the "Heir" does not create as much havoc.  He doesn't have 
parents to discredit (that we know of at this point, CoS).  Of course, 
it might embarass his grandmother - but (I do like Neville <g>) I don't 
think he needs Lucius Malfoy's "help" to do that.

I don't think it would be a first year student - other than one LM's 
certain of.  He wouldn't want to have a Slytherin student implicated, 
so it would have to be someone who's already been sorted just to make 
certain.  Ginny was easy because of her family background - LM could be 
close to absolutely certain that she wasn't going to be in Slytherin.

About Colin Creevy, though...let's assume that LM knows that CC's 
Muggle-born and therefore not likely to get into Slytherin.  Slips him 
the diary and wait to see what happens.
My first thought is that LM didn't give the diary to Ron/Harry because 
an 11/12 year old boy is less likely (generally speaking) to keep a 
diary than is a girl the same age.  So in my theory (on this train), LM 
would choose a Muggle-born girl instead of Colin to ensure the diary 
got used.
If, though, Colin (or some other Muggle-born) were chosen ... well, 
that would tend to squash the MPA -- why should we protect them if they 
are willing to kill each other?  But then it would create a problem -- 
the Heir of Slytherin is a Mudblood?! ::gasp::  That might make things 
worse for LM and crew instead of better - destroying the good Pureblood 
name and all.

If Harry were a 12yo girl, however, it might be safe enough to assume 
that she'd write in a diary (as LM assumed with GW, no gender bias 
intended).  Her mother Muggle-born, and she kills Muggles - just as V./
Riddle did would work for LM's plans.  Also, if S/Harry Potter was the 
heir, it would destroy the "child who lived" legend, cast her as a dark 
witch and give V./Riddle the opportunity to destroy his greatest enemy 
... making the way for his return?
a.





From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Sun Mar 25 17:14:53 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:14:53 -0000
Subject: Harrys POV versa facts (was: Re: Courses)
In-Reply-To: <99l2tv+j8dr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99l92d+g4mh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15141

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
>  How long can we stretch the Harry-POV? I mean, the story isn?t 
told 
> by him. Its told by an allwise narrator, describing the 
> characters. And the narrator doesn?t say: "Hermione signed up for 
so 
> many courses that Harry/Ron thought she must have covered them 
all" - 
> it is said that Hermione signed up for everything. 
> 
> Or do you mean that fact and Harrys personal impression is mixed 
> without this being stated in the text???

The story (well, most of it) is actually told in what's called Third 
Person Limited, which means that every scene that Harry is in is 
shown only from his perspective, and there are no perspective shifts. 
There are a few exceptions - the begining is Vernon's perspective, 
then Dumbledore's, and the start of GoF is Frank Bryce's perspective 
(although it might actually be Harry's dream-traveling perspective) 
and there's a scene in PS/SS in the quidditch match which is either 
Ron's or Hermi's perspective. I think it's Ron's, but I'm not 
perfectly sure.
Third Person Omniscient, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, 
would have perspective shifts from scene to scene or even within the 
same scene. The best HP-related examples I can give are from fanfic. 
Ebony's Trouble in Paradise is first person, which is inherently 
limited (you also might be familiar with Catcher in the Rye, also a 
1st person story); my Surfeit of Curses is third person limited - 
mostly draco, with one chapter so far of Hermione; ASA, PoU/STNE and 
DD/DS have perspective shifts and the stories are each "told" from 
multiple character perspectives. To see what happens when you tell 
the exact same scenes from 2 character perspectives, if you don't 
mind slash, try Grim Slasher's Boy's Own Camping Adventure - the 
perspectives in chatpers 1 and 2 are phenomenally instructive.

Over on PoU at one point, Lori Summers did a pretty interesting 
discourse on perspective shifts - search for her name & the word 
perspective over on PoU to find it. (If you don't know what PoU 
means, check out THIS GROUP's VERY Frequently Asked Questions page, 
available by link from http://www.hp4gu.org.uk




From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Mar 25 18:20:55 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:20:55 -0000
Subject: Is Draco evil?
In-Reply-To: <99ksf8+5t87@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99lcu7+1118a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15142

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:
> > I've been catching up on messages and so these thoughts my seem a 
> > little old, but I thought I'd post them anyway.
> > 
> > We've been asking whether Draco is evil, or at least irredeemable. 
> I 
> > don't think he is, yet, and have stated this. 

I don't think Draco is evil as much as he standing in Daddy's shadow.  
He never questions anything his father says or does, but does run to 
his father whenever a problem comes up.  Draco's favorite way to start 
a sentence is "My father says..."  How much of his own original 
thinking have we really seen?  

Yes, Draco does think he is right, but he really is just echoing his 
father's thoughts.  Will he ever step out from behind Lucius?  Now 
that would be interesting!

--Jenny from Rav




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Sun Mar 25 18:33:25 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:33:25 -0000
Subject: Family ships (was Re: Pomfrey and Gender balance/strong women Madam  Pomfrey...)
In-Reply-To: <99k2og+o5jv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ldll+58k0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15143

> > > Susan responded:
> 
> NO ONE has answered the question -- where are the men who stay home
> with the children? where are the men who are basically the supporters of the women who act? where are men whose primary role is NURTURANCE?
> And who have no other major role?
> 
I attempted to respond:
How many wizarding families (or Muggle families) have we even met?  
Harry only knows about his own and his friends' families - we have no 
way of knowing weather Dean Thomas or the Patils, for example, are 
raised by single or stay-at-home Dads.
(see message 14953)

We know now that Hagrid was raised by a "single" dad because Harry 
found out about it.  We overheard someone (I think Seamus, but I don't 
remember the reference) saying that his dad flipped when he found out 
mom was a witch, and there have been a few other family/relationship 
discussions that we've been privy to (through Harry's involvement or 
overhearing), but Harry doesn't ask "family" questions so we have no 
way of getting lots of family information.  "Everyone" knows Harry's 
story, so noone asks him if he's got siblings; who/where his parents 
are; or where he lives, giving him the chance to ask in return.

I think the revelations about the Longbottoms, "Moody's" comments about 
him, his guilt/responsibility about Cedric, and his new awareness of 
girls will make him more aware/interested in thinking outside the Trio.  
This is, after all, only his 4th year having/being a friend.  Social 
skills come with time/practice. 
a.





From meboriqua at aol.com  Sun Mar 25 18:38:39 2001
From: meboriqua at aol.com (meboriqua at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:38:39 -0000
Subject: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
In-Reply-To: <99kqf3+5nus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ldvg+n20g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15144


> 
> I hate to have a dispute with any author I love this much, but on 
the 
> other hand I've never found an author I could agree with 100%.  
There 
> is always something that I see as a flaw, and understanding what the 
> flaw is and why it bothers me is as enlightening as understanding 
the 
> author's wonderful themes and characters and why they speak to me.  
If 
> I loved 5% of what JKR did and disliked 95%, I wouldn't read her.  
But 
> the proportions, happily, are reversed, and I will enjoy the 95% and 
> not cover up, but take note of, the other 5%.
> 
>
> Amy Z

Well said, Amy!

I feel very much the same way as JKR, and did notice the not so 
balanced positions of women and men, but had to overlook that because 
I just love the books so much.

Unfortunately, we live in a world where the majority of high positions 
ARE held by men.  It sucks and I hate it, but it is so.  Would as many 
people have bought the whole idea if Hogwarts and MOM were run by 
women?  Just like people are reluctant to vote for a woman for a high 
ranking position, people tend to be more interested in men's sports, 
in men as heros, in men with power, and women with looks.  On that 
note, Hermione is a fantastic character, and so is Cho, for being 
pretty, an athlete and a generally nice kid.  JKR works well with what 
society gives her.  I'd still like to see a female DADA professor (I 
think it'll be Arabella Figg).

--Jenn




From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 25 18:54:14 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:54:14 -0000
Subject: Raven or vampire?
Message-ID: <99lesm+t5ic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15145

Hi! Sorry if this topic has been discussed to death already, I 
trawled the archives for a long while and found no evidence of any 
similar posts.

A while ago a debate raged as to whether Snape is a vampire or an 
animagus. I have never seen him as a vampire; yes he is pale, he 
wears black a lot, but so do goths and many other people. I do 
however like the idea that he is an animagus and turns into a raven. 
While looking up a crossword clue the other day, I came across an 
article in the encyclopedia about ravens and found a few similarities 
to the Potions Master. Probably no more trustworthy than the evidence 
for him being a vampire, but see what you think.
  
  1. Both have black beady eyes.

  2. Snape has a long hooked nose, ravens have heavy hooked bills.

  3. Ravens are entirely black, as I mentioned before Snape dresses 
in black (though this could still be nothing more than personal 
choice).

  4. Ravens eat carrion (dead flesh), Snape was a death eater. (Yes 
this link is *very* weak, but still a possibility. A slim one).

Snape being a raven would fit in with the fact he manages to travel 
very quickly to some places as he could fly there. It could also be a 
possible explanation for his appearances at crucial moments with 
Dumbledore and McGonagall ~ Animagi are rare (I think) so two in the 
school would be likely to stay close to each other and the 
headteacher. 

It could also be a factor in Snape's hatred of the Marauders. If 
becoming an Animagus is hard work, I would imagine it would be nice 
to feel part of a very select group. Imagine the shock when it turns 
out that not only have others in the school completed the training, 
they just happen to be your worst enemies, the ones you like to feel 
superior to. It could also be a reason why Snape didn't push for 
their expulsion; he may have found respect for them. Not the kind of 
respect Harry has for Dumbledore or anything, more like that nagging 
little voice that says: "Maybe they're not so bad after all..."

I think I have exhausted my brain trying to find evidence to back up 
my theory but I would be interested to know what others think. If 
this has been discussed before, I would be interested to know roughly 
when so I could read the posts :)

Sarah 
(who really must try harder to post more often.)  






From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 19:44:14 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:44:14 -0000
Subject: Gender Balance-lots of various topics
Message-ID: <99lhqe+cag0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15146

I have found the gender balance discussions very interesting, and 
thought provoking. These are my thoughts gathered from reading LOTS 
of different posts.

WORD COUNT/PAGE TIME.

Someone (Amy?) said that for every few female characters in a story 
there seems to be an equal amount as with men (even though there 
aren't). I think this is true, and I'm not sure why, but in HP at 
least the females that we have are strong and that sort of equals it 
out. It DOESN'T equal it out, but there are a lot of weak male 
characters, as opposed to strong female one's.

That whole page/word count was really interesting. Kudos to the 
person who compiled it!

DEFINING RELATIONSHIPS

Susan and Rena(?) have argued that no characters are defined by their 
relationships to women. But I agree with Amanda(?) that defining 
relationships depend on the situation, and most importantly how one 
defines oneself.  However I have to argue that Harry is,if not 
completely, defined by relationships to women. He is both James 
Potter's son, and Lily Evans Potter's son. He is best friend of both 
Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger. If you took out Hermione you'd also 
take out an important part of who Harry is becoming.

HARRY POV-AN EXCUSE?

Ok, someone Susan(?) said that it was a lame excuse to say everything 
is from Harry's POV (or third person limited with Harry guiding the 
stories). They aren't from his point of view entirely (I went to play 
Quidditch) but they would be totally different if it weren't for 
Harry being  the centre of the novels. I think the Harry POV is an 
important factor, but it's not an explain-all.

GINNY

The Weasley's youngest kid is, well lets face it, not that 
interesting. But that doesn't mean Ginny doesn't have potential, she 
does. Jo Rowling just hasn't picked up on it. I'm sure Ginny is an 
interesting person and I hope we get to see that.  

Have you ever known someone, worked with them, had class with them 
etc., and see them everyday, and yet not know them. I certainly have, 
and I hate to say it. Admitedly when it's your best friend's sister 
and someone who has major crush on you, it's a stretch to think that 
Harry never noticed her as a person in her own right, but it's 
possible.

I also agree with Penny that Ginny was pretty much nothing more than 
a victim in CoS, and because we don't see much more of her it can be 
hard get that image out of one's mind.

MOLLY

I think Molly is an extremely strong woman. She doesn't have to work 
for the MoM or hold some high ranking position to be a strong person. 
Life is about choices, and no matter what we choose to do with our 
lives, it's HOW we carry out that choice that makes us a strong 
person, not what the choice is. I'm not saying that I think women 
should stick to cooking or cleaning and men to positions of power. 

So yes we see Molly's strength. If it weren't for Molly Harry 
mightn't have even gotten to Hogwarts in PS/SS. She's a mother to 
both her own children and in a way to Harry as well. As someone 
pointed out she isn't afraid to make important decisions even when 
they're difficult. She commits her family to the fight against 
Voldemort without a second thought.

***

I could go on and on and on, but I wont. I think that the books are 
fine the way they are because this is the story JKR is writing.  It 
may be about a fictional world about Witches and Wizards, but it is 
also a very realistic world, that mirrors our own. There are a lot of 
injustices and this is one of them. Whether JKR is conciously or 
Subconciously trying to make the story more male oriented I don't 
know. It's funny because I always considered myself rather unlucky at 
being a white male. What's the glory in my achievements since like me 
have been ruling the world and making important decisions in some 
society for all of recording history. I'm not say that I'm not proud 
of who I am, but symbolically I've not accomplished nearly as much as 
someone who has in the past been oppressed. 

I've  always wondered why people can't just see that we are all 
equal. Of course there's no anwser to that, but it's never even 
crossed my mind that things could be any other way.

For the most part I think we should be happy with the story that Jo's 
writing. Someone said that Jo wont change things because she's got 
the whole story planned out. I don't think she will add new women for 
just for the sake of complaints, but I don't think it would be 
possible for her not to be influenced by the events that take place 
around her, and the things that have happened to her since the story 
was planned. The story, like JKR herself has evolved since it's 
"birth".

Scott






From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Sun Mar 25 20:15:11 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 20:15:11 -0000
Subject: Raven or vampire?
In-Reply-To: <99lesm+t5ic@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ljkf+enon@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15147

 "Sarah Waggott" <s_waggott at y...> wrote:
> Hi! Sorry if this topic has been discussed to death already, I 
> trawled the archives for a long while and found no evidence of any 
> similar posts.
> 
> A while ago a debate raged as to whether Snape is a vampire or an 
> animagus. I have never seen him as a vampire; yes he is pale, he 
> wears black a lot, but so do goths and many other people.<snip>
I don't think he's a vampire. Wizards don't seem to care much for them. 
I think he'd have left Lupin alone in PoA instead of making sure 
everyone knew he was a ::gasp:: werewolf.  You know, the pot calling 
the kettle...
<snip>
>~ Animagi are rare (I think) so two in the school would be likely to stay close to each other and the headteacher. 
But if he were a registered Animagi, Hermione would know about it 
already since she's done that research in PoA.
> 
> It could also be a factor in Snape's hatred of the Marauders. If 
> becoming an Animagus is hard work, I would imagine it would be nice 
> to feel part of a very select group. Imagine the shock when it turns 
> out that not only have others in the school completed the training, 
> they just happen to be your worst enemies, the ones you like to feel 
> superior to. It could also be a reason why Snape didn't push for 
> their expulsion; he may have found respect for them. Not the kind of 
> respect Harry has for Dumbledore or anything, more like that nagging 
> little voice that says: "Maybe they're not so bad after all..."
> 
<snip>
I think, though, that Snape doesn't find out the SB is an Animagus 
until GoF.  Had he known, considering that he thinks SB's a criminal, 
he would have told the authorities -- and what better way to get rid 
of/even with Lupin than to alert the authorities that he aided/abetted 
by his silence.
I'm not saying that Snape isn't an Animagus (maybe Hermione overlooked 
his registration, or he's not registered). I just don't think it 
influenced his feelings towards MWPP because he didn't know about them.
a.





From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar 25 20:18:23 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:18:23 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's friend - Snape's grudge
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010324133537.00a06d60@rudjer.irb.hr>
Message-ID: <3ABE528E.8A196167@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15148

zora_djevojka at yahoo.com wrote:

> Not really an answer to Catlady's question, but why didn't teenage
> Snape push to get Sirius expelled. He could have, he certainly
> believed that Sirius attempted to kill him through that "prank".

How do we know that he didn't? Sirius himself makes the comment
someplace that Snape was always following them around, trying to get
them expelled. I'm betting that Snape *did* try to get Sirius expelled,
on this and probably other occasions, but that Sirius had managed to let
the info about the tunnel "slip" or be overheard or something other
than, "Hey, Sev, ol' buddy ol' pal, here's where we go." Only the latter
would indicate intent, and only clear intent would be enough to expel (I
think).

Kind of adds a dimension to Snape's "whoops" slip of the tongue about
Lupin being a werewolf. Doing the same to Lupin as Lupin's friend did to
him. ["Oh, terribly sorry, did I *say* that? My mistake...." but damage
done.]

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Sun Mar 25 20:22:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:22:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] This Elf is Saying (filk)
References: <99jtkl+rd82@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABE536D.3481F26D@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15149

Caius, my life is now complete. I have been in love, married, had
children, won an argument with my father, and now, now I have a Caius
filk dedicated to me!

--Amanda

Caius Marcius wrote:

> This Elf is Saying (from CoS, Chap. 2)
>
> (To the tune of The Lady's Paying, from Lloyd Webber's Sunset
> Boulevard)
>
> Dedicated to Amanda Lewanski
>
> (The Scene: HARRY'S room on Privet Drive.  HARRY is full of self-pity
> as the summer drags on without a word from his classmates.
> Meanwhile, the Dursleys prepare to entertain the Masons, a rich
> builder VERNON hopes to do business with)
>
> HARRY(music)
> This looks to be my most unhappy birthday yet
> I've not received a single card or present
> I can't expect a thing from the Dursleys of course
> But no Hermione or Ron, now that I resent
>
> (Enter UNCLE VERNON)
>
> HARRY(spoken)
> What's all this?
>
> VERNON (spoken)
> So what if it's your birthday? It's forgotten!
>
> HARRY(spoken)
> Well, I...
>
> VERNON (spoken)
> This is the most important dinner party we've ever held. You're to
> remain in your room for the day.
>
> HARRY(spoken)
> Uncle Vernon, now listen....
>
> VERNON(spoken)
> Boy, I'll leave you to it.
>
> (Exit VERNON)
>
> HARRY (music)
> I thought I had made bonds that time could never bend
> With my new friends
> But it seems that none of them have even missed me
>
> (DOBBY suddenly appears on HARRY'S bed)
>
> But what is this that I see standing on my bed
> It bows its head
> And looks as though it wishes to assist me
>
> DOBBY
> Dobby's here on a great quest
>
> HARRY
> The poor thing in dishrags is dressed
>
> DOBBY(bowing deeply)
> You're a very noble wizard as each house-elf will attest
> Now Dobby bows before you with a humble meek request
> So very far from home is Dobby straying
> So listen please to what this elf is saying
>
> HARRY
> I'm glad to meet you Dobby, please now have a seat
>
> DOBBY (bursting in tears)
> He deigns to greet
> Dobby as if he were his peer or equal
> >From a wizard such regard is never seen
> This kindness keen
> Is without a predecessor or a sequal
>
> Your goodness heralds your renown
> Your bold triumphs yet resound
> Every elf wants to thank you
> For your defeat of You-Know-Who
> Dobby's come to tell you why
> That he cannot let you die
> So no more at Hogwarts School can you be staying
> Please listen sir to what this elf is saying
>
> HARRY (simultaneously with last line)
> I can't believe what I hear this elf saying
>
> HARRY
> Hogwarts to me is far more than just a school,
> It's a renewal
> The friends I've made there make my life much better
>
> DOBBY
> How can they be Harry's friends when they don't write?
>
> (DOBBY accidentally releases a huge pile of letters from Ron,
> Hermione,and Hagrid)
>
> HARRY
> You tricky sprite
> I see that you've purloined my every letter
>
> DOBBY(snatching the letters back)
> If Harry thought he'd lost his friends,
> Then Hogwarts he'd not attend
> He'd dodge a danger dark and vast that must destroy him in the end
> And Dobby must now tell you, though his Master he'll offend
> That his Master these dark forces is conveying
>
> (DOBBY looks startled, realizing he's said something he shouldn't)
>
> Dobby cannot believe what he is saying
>
> (DOBBY begins banging his head violently. HARRY tries to stop him)
>
> HARRY
> Please now Dobby kindly do not bang your head
> You'll wind up dead
> You'll give yourself a really bad concussion
>
> DOBBY
> When Dobby's bad it's clear that he
> Must punished be
> Upon his skull compelled to play percussion
>
> A house-elf is by magic bound
> To say nothing that's unsound
> Though the slightest hint of Master's crime is certain to astound
> Dobby warrants discipline whenever it is found
> That his Master's reputation he's betraying
> So just ignore what this house-elf is saying
> (bangs his head a few more times)
>
> HARRY:
> Dobby, listen, please, I live with Muggles here
> They hate and fear
> Each and everything that has to do with magic
> They're entertaining quite important guests tonight
>
> DOBBY
> I must ignite
> Them to save you from a fate that's far too tragic
>
> (DOBBY races to the kitchen, with HARRY in close pursuit. As HARRY
> arrives, he sees that DOBBY is perilously levitating Aunt
> Petunia's "masterpiece of a pudding" at ceiling level)
>
> HARRY
> Don't levitate the pudding bowl
> Uncle Vern will lose control
>
> DOBBY
> Ask Hogwarts to remove your name off their attendance roll
>
> HARRY
> I don't care what else may happen, but Hogwarts is my life and soul
>
> DOBBY
> Now gravity that bowl must start obeying
> Because Harry scorns what this elf is saying
>
> (DOBBY causes the bowl to crash, sending pudding flying in every
> direction, and enveloping HARRY in it. DOBBY vanishes abruptly, just
> as UNCLE VERNON rushes in).
>
> VERNON(dragging HARRY to his room)
> The Masons fled in terror when they saw your bird
> Deliver word
> That magic done outside school they prohibit
> Now let's see if magic helps you leave your room
> You may presume
> Your movement hence we strictly shall inhibit
>
> (VERNON places bars upon HARRY's windows, and then locks him inside
> his room)
>
> HARRY
> Now I'm under lock and bar
> But here's a sight nothing can mar
> Right outside my window I see Ron inside in a magic car
>
> RON, GEORGE AND FRED
> Climb right on board Harry, and you'll fly with us so far
>
> HARRY AND RON
> This evening Uncle Vern I'll/you'll be defying
> And in the Weasley's car I/you shall be flying
>
> (FRED and GEORGE non-magically remove the bars, and help HARRY climb
> in)
>
> HARRY
> An evening with an elf can be quite trying.
>
> (Exit all skywards)
>
>     - CMC
>
>
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From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sun Mar 25 20:46:01 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:46:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
In-Reply-To: <99ldvg+n20g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103251457190.26470-100000@er3.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15150

On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 meboriqua at aol.com wrote:

> Unfortunately, we live in a world where the majority of high positions 
> ARE held by men.  It sucks and I hate it, but it is so.  Would as many 
> people have bought the whole idea if Hogwarts and MOM were run by 
> women?  Just like people are reluctant to vote for a woman for a high 
> ranking position, people tend to be more interested in men's sports, 
> in men as heros, in men with power, and women with looks.  

The question of Fudge or Dumbledore as a woman is an entirely different
one, in a way, from the question of Harry as a girl.  While I think
girl-Harry may indeed have reduced popularity (certainly initially) by
casuing the publisher to label the series as 'girls' books' rather than
'children's books', I don't think having a Cornelia Fudge nor an Alba
Dumbledore would've been detrimental to the series' popularity nor in
any way unbelievable. We already have Minerva MacGonagall as deputy
headmistress, and I doubt that in 2001 anyone's head would've exploded
at the notion that she was the actual headmistress instead.  And as for
the MoM -- Britain, unlike the US, has elected a woman to serve as its
chief executive.

(Reminds me of that joke from around the time that Major succeeded
Thatcher, about the little girl saying, "But he can't be prime
minister; only girls can be prime minister.")

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From cryptykgrl at aol.com  Sun Mar 25 21:11:53 2001
From: cryptykgrl at aol.com (cryptykgrl at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:11:53 EST
Subject: Some stuff about PoA, Moving Pictures, and Harry's permission slip
Message-ID: <66.d467356.27efb919@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15151

    I reread PoA yesterday, mainly because I love Remus Lupin (and it seems 
we'll be seeing him again, I'm very happy about this) and Sirius Black.  And 
there's also the fact that it makes me cry more than GoF does - for various 
reasons, one being the fact that Harry comes so close to living with Sirius 
and then can't - yes, I cry easily.  Also, I was very tired yesterday.  
Anyhow - it made me think about a couple of things:
    1) About the moving pictures, when a person dies, apparently the picture 
continues to move:
    "He stopped on a picture of his parents' wedding day.  There was his 
father waving up at him, beaming, the untidy black hair Harry had inherited 
standing up in all directions."
    but if we take the soul theory that someone mentioned (I don't know who, 
sorry), then what would happen to that photo (which Sirius was in) if the 
Dementor's Kiss had in fact been administered?  Would Sirius continue to 
move, or would it revert to a regular photograph?  Or would he perhaps 
disappear from the picture altogether?
    2) At the end of PoA, when Harry is on the train home, Pig shows up at 
the window carrying a letter from Sirius.  Enclosed in that letter is a note 
giving Harry permission to go to Hogsmeade when the rest of the school goes.  
Wouldn't that cause some problems?  Early in the book, it's Minerva who 
collects the slips from all the Gryffindors, so you would think that to go to 
Hogsmeade, he would have to give his note to her in GoF.  However, correct me 
if I'm wrong, but she doesn't know that Sirius is innocent, does she?  I 
mean, if all of a sudden, Harry gave her a note signed by a wizard who she 
thought had murdered 13 innocent people, then escaped from Azkaban and was 
still out there somewhere, wouldn't that make her just a little suspicious? 

~Erin~



From litalex at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 21:25:41 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:25:41 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some stuff about PoA, Moving Pictures, and Harry's permission slip
References: <66.d467356.27efb919@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01d601c0b572$259cb4e0$dd10eda9@kwan>

No: HPFGUIDX 15152

Hello,

> if I'm wrong, but she doesn't know that Sirius is innocent, does she?  I
> mean, if all of a sudden, Harry gave her a note signed by a wizard who she
> thought had murdered 13 innocent people, then escaped from Azkaban and was
> still out there somewhere, wouldn't that make her just a little
suspicious?

Well, the note did say something about "enough for Dumbledore."  So,
presumably, Harry gives the note to Dumbledore and AD tells Minevra that
Harry is clear, and then she marks on her list that he's clear to go.  So,
no note to Minerva.  Professor Minerva knows that Dumbledore won't lie, no
matter how fond he is of Harry.  It seems to work.  I don't know.

little Alex




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Mar 25 21:48:32 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:48:32 -0000
Subject: Lily's friend - Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <3ABE528E.8A196167@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99lp3g+gpo8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15153

Following on from the whole Sirius/Snape saga, there is something 
which has always confused me.  If Snape was a DE, one would assume 
that he knew that Wormtail was the spy - afterall, Wormtail is a 
fellow DE.  Therefore one would also assume that Snape knew, albeit 
however deep down, that Sirius was innocent.  Do you think that this 
was somehow concealed from him, or did his hatred of Sirius give him 
a selective memory?

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> zora_djevojka at y... wrote:
> 
> > Not really an answer to Catlady's question, but why didn't teenage
> > Snape push to get Sirius expelled. He could have, he certainly
> > believed that Sirius attempted to kill him through that "prank".
> 
> How do we know that he didn't? Sirius himself makes the comment
> someplace that Snape was always following them around, trying to get
> them expelled. I'm betting that Snape *did* try to get Sirius 
expelled,
> on this and probably other occasions, but that Sirius had managed 
to let
> the info about the tunnel "slip" or be overheard or something other
> than, "Hey, Sev, ol' buddy ol' pal, here's where we go." Only the 
latter
> would indicate intent, and only clear intent would be enough to 
expel (I
> think).
> 
> Kind of adds a dimension to Snape's "whoops" slip of the tongue 
about
> Lupin being a werewolf. Doing the same to Lupin as Lupin's friend 
did to
> him. ["Oh, terribly sorry, did I *say* that? My mistake...." but 
damage
> done.]
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rina at love-productions.com  Sun Mar 25 21:54:27 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:54:27 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's grudge
Message-ID: <00b201c0b576$2e402ce0$120f9fac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15154

Catherine wrote:

<<Following on from the whole Sirius/Snape saga, there is something 
which has always confused me.  If Snape was a DE, one would assume 
that he knew that Wormtail was the spy - afterall, Wormtail is a 
fellow DE.  Therefore one would also assume that Snape knew, albeit 
however deep down, that Sirius was innocent.  Do you think that this 
was somehow concealed from him, or did his hatred of Sirius give him 
a selective memory?>>

I think it's possible that none of the DEs, Snape included, knew about Peter. He was, after all, Voldemort's secret weapon. No one suspected him, and that worked to V's advantage. Besides, you never known when one of your own is doing what Peter did, so it's best to keep the big stuff very quiet, just in case. It's possible they knew only that there was a person from the other side giving them info, and Snape was as surprised as everyone else to hear it was Sirius. Well, not surprised exactly, since he probably wouldn't have put it past him, but he hadn't known that it was him. 

JMO, YMMV. 
Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 00:38:57 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 00:38:57 -0000
Subject: Harrys POV versa facts (was: Re: Courses)
In-Reply-To: <99l92d+g4mh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99m331+bl12@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15155

Jennifer K:

> > Or do you mean that fact and Harrys personal impression is mixed 
> > without this being stated in the text???

Heidi: 

> The story (well, most of it) is actually told in what's called Third 
> Person Limited, which means that every scene that Harry is in is 
> shown only from his perspective, and there are no perspective 
shifts. 

<good explanation of what different POVs are like snipped out>

Right, Heidi--thank you for saying much more clearly what I tried to 
say.

That isn't Harry speaking when the narration says she "signed up for 
everything," but I do think it shows his slant.  And in general, 
throughout the books, the narration has a tone that suggests there are 
many times it shouldn't be taken quite literally.  I took this 
statement as hyperbole, partly because we know there are more courses 
than these 5.  It =is= possible that Hermione took every single one 
available to 3rd-years, but Harry's trouble deciding implied to me 
that he was trying to narrow the choices down from a lot more than 5.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
 Mountain trolls can occasionally be seen mounted on 
 Graphorns, though the latter do not seem to take 
 kindly to attempts to tame them and it is more 
 common to see a troll covered in Graphorn scars.
           -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
-----------------------------------------------------




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Mar 26 00:47:46 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 01:47:46 +0100
Subject: ADMIN/X-POST: Weekly discussions - revised schedule & what happens next?
Message-ID: <003f01c0b58e$81d24b00$e33670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 15156

Hi everyone!

WEEKLY DISCUSSIONS

We're coming to the end of our current set of weekly discussion topics on the main HPfGU list, and there are one or two revisions to the last few scheduled lead-off summaries:

Here is the plan for the next few weeks (volunteers in brackets): 

26th March - 1st April: Hermione Granger and & GoF Chap 36 (both from Penny)
2nd - 8th April: Ron Weasley (Susan)
9th - 15th April: Harry Potter (Joywitch) & Chap 37 GoF (Pippin)

See recent schedule, here (in the Files section of the main list):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion%20Summaries/Discussions%20on%20Harry%20Potter%20for%20Grownups.htm

See links table to completed chapter summaries, here (also in the Files section):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Discussion%20Summaries/GoFChapters.htm

(thanks to Barb Khaja for help with this)


WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT?

We're making tentative plans to continue the scheduled discussions.  The idea is that we'd discuss chapters from PoA, then CoS, then PS/SS, with the last set completing just before the release of the Warner Brothers movie.  Alongside these we're suggesting various topics for sketches.  

We'd like to know whether you want to continue some or all of these scheduled discussions, and if so, whether you'd volunteer to write a lead-off summary or two.  There is a poll on HPfGU-Announcements:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements/polls

You can also view the proposed new topics at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements/files/NewWeeklyDiscussions.htm

Send your questions, comments or suggestions to Neil at neilward at dircon.co.uk.  

If we do go ahead with the plan, we'll be looking for the first few new volunteers in a week or so's time.  For those who are completely new to the list, the idea of the summaries is to sum up a chapter or chapters from one of the HP books, or present a sketch of a character or topic, for the purposes of discussion.  Summaries are posted on Monday each week, they can be short or long and the writer usually poses a few questions at the end to fire things off...

Please vote in the poll and watch this space for further information.

Thanks.

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, 
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint 
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything 
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 00:50:20 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 00:50:20 -0000
Subject: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
In-Reply-To: <99ldvg+n20g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99m3oc+pr9e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15157

Jenn wrote:
 
> Unfortunately, we live in a world where the majority of high 
positions 
> ARE held by men.  It sucks and I hate it, but it is so.  Would as 
many 
> people have bought the whole idea if Hogwarts and MOM were run by 
> women? 

Now, that raises an interesting question . . . are writers doing a 
disservice when they suggest that the world is more just than it 
really is?  It seems to me that half the court scenes I see on TV have 
a black woman judge.  Would that this were possible in real life . . . 
I've probably seen more black women judges on television than there 
are in the entire US judicial system.  I'm glad everyone's seeing 
this and absorbing the idea that black women can be strong, smart, and 
worthy of respect, but on the other hand, I don't want people to start 
thinking, "racism isn't a problem 'cause look at all those black women 
in power"!

But JKR doesn't have this dilemma, because she's creating a world that 
has a separate history from modern Muggle Britain.  Without making the 
wizarding world a utopia, she could make it much more equal than the 
Muggle world.  That would send an interesting message.  One of the 
great things about speculative fiction is that you can do this kind of 
thing without instantly getting a "that just isn't possible" response. 
 Ursula LeGuin created a very interesting nonsexist society in The 
Dispossessed, e.g. (I never miss a chance to plug one of my very faves 
<g>).

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------
 [The Crup] closely resembles a Jack Russell 
 terrier except for the forked tail.
      -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
------------------------------------------------




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Mon Mar 26 02:04:08 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 02:04:08 -0000
Subject: Percy and Ginny (was Re: Percy)
In-Reply-To: <99joan+me70@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99m82p+82b9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15158

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., muggle-reader at a... wrote:

> Clearly Ginny is in a state of mental distress. She is anxious, 
> panicky, and hyperreflexic. Upon learning that Ginny was about to 
> divulge "important" news, Percy, with egocentric urgency, 
> thinks "It's all about ME!", hence choking on his tea. He does not 
> even consider the important news is about the Chamber, much less 
that 
> his sister could possibly have any information about the Chamber. 
> Percy's only "concern" is to save himself. In one fell swoop, Percy 
> discredits Ginny's "important" news, questions her integrity and 
> discredits Ron's concern for Ginny. A similar situation occurred  
in 
> PoA, Ch 13, where Percy disregards Ron's claims that Sirius Black 
was 
> in his dormitory AND where Percy tells McGonagal that he not only 
did 
> not authorize the gathering in the Common Room, but also, that 
> Ron "had a nightmare". In both of these examples, Percy has jumped 
to 
> a wrong conclusion while dismissing the credibility of his siblings 
> and has attempted to save his reputation at the expense of his 
> siblings reputations. (Ginny's "important" news couldn't possibly 
be 
> about the Chamber and she can't be trusted with a secret; Ron only 
> had a nightmare.) Moreover it shows that Percy follows his 
> preconceived notions when assessing a situation rather than 
listening 
> and sorting through the facts. Ron's response, to Hermione's 
comment 
> that Percy wouldn't give any of his family to the Dementors, of "I 
> don't know, " said Ron. "If he thought we were standing in the way 
of 
> his career
Percy's really ambitious you know
"( GoF, Ch 27)
> doesn't 
> seem completely off the mark in light of Percy's history.
> 
> There is nothing completely wrong with following rules or authority 
> figures and that is an admirable Percy trait. However, there is a 
> danger when they are followed blindly. Here's a Percy quote from 
GoF, 
> Ch 10 about Winky and her loyality to Crouch.
> 
> "Now look here, Hermione!" said Percy. "A high-ranking official 
like 
> Mr. Crouch deserves unserving obedience from his servants---"
> 
> That quote sheds a very, very bright light on Percy's mentality: 
> authority figures deserve not just plain ordinary obedience, but 
> UNSERVING obedience. That is exactly what Percy gave to the 
Imperious 
> cursed Crouch and is what made him the perfect pawn of the Dark 
Side, 
> enabling them to succeed in their plan to control the Triwizard 
> Tournament. I firmly believe a less rigid person would have found 
> Crouch's extended holiday-illness and communications via post 
> somewhat odd (Sirius was only following Crouch's behavior by the 
> newspaper and HE thought something was odd and has Ron to write a 
> letter to Percy concerning Crouch). I can easily see Percy uttering 
a 
> similar sentence when he is told of Fudge's refusal to believe 
> Voldemort's return ("Impossible! Cornelius Fudge is the Minister of 
> Magic, the highest ranking official in the Ministry! He would never 
> hide from us anything as important as You-Know-Who returning!"). 
> 
> I truly want Percy to side with Dumbledore and the rest of the 
> Weasley's in the upcoming books. J. K. Rowling could have Percy see 
> the light. But at this point, Percy's character can convincingly go 
> either way.  
> 
> Demelza

I never realized that Percy was saving himself at the expense of Ron 
and Ginny. It makes me wonder if Percy was "helping" Arthur at the 
Ministry after the World Cup the same way.

I agree there is a bit of interesting Percy foreshadowing in the 
books. It puzzled me why in CoS Percy didn't know Voldemort was Tom 
Riddle. He was reading a book about Hogwarts Prefects who went onto 
powerful positions, unless that book wiped out all reference to Tom 
Riddle. 

I think Percy's beliefs about obedience given to authority figures 
also sheds light on how HE feels he should be/have been treated by 
Ron et al. while Head Boy at Hogwarts and would make sense why he 
took points away from Gryffindor due to the argument with Ron.  

Rowling has 3 books left to tie up the loose Percy ends. I hope it's 
done through the course of the books rather than having Ron tell 
Harry that Percy had a big conversion over the summer and he's much 
less strict--that would be a bit of a cop out, IMO.

:-)Milz




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar 26 02:55:29 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 20:55:29 -0600
Subject: Picking a Valentine nit (was Ginny/Girl Harry, yada, yada)
References: <3ABD9F27.A74601AB@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <3ABEAFA0.F6ABA0F8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15159

Catlady wrote:

> Probably straight Ginny wouldn't have sent a singing Valentine to
> girl-Harry is all.

*ahem* There are those of us out here who still don't think Ginny sent
the Valentine. I think Lockhart arranged for all of them, down to who
got them and the smarmy poetry. I think she ran in tears because she was
under tremendous stress and she *does* hero-worship Harry and now he's
going to think *she* sent it and hate her! Plus, it was in front of all
those other people who'll think she sent it, too! Heck, *I'd* run out of
the room in those circumstances.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cryptykgrl at aol.com  Mon Mar 26 02:59:35 2001
From: cryptykgrl at aol.com (cryptykgrl at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:59:35 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Picking a Valentine nit (was Ginny/Girl Harry, yada, yada)
Message-ID: <de.121ce9b1.27f00a97@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15160

In a message dated 3/25/01 6:57:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, editor at texas.net 
writes:


> > Probably straight Ginny wouldn't have sent a singing Valentine to
> > girl-Harry is all.
> 
> *ahem* There are those of us out here who still don't think Ginny sent
> the Valentine. I think Lockhart arranged for all of them, down to who
> got them and the smarmy poetry. I think she ran in tears because she was
> under tremendous stress and she *does* hero-worship Harry and now he's
> going to think *she* sent it and hate her! Plus, it was in front of all
> those other people who'll think she sent it, too! Heck, *I'd* run out of
> the room in those circumstances.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> There's that idea, which I definitely agree with...but in PoA, when Harry 
> was in the hospital wing (after the fall from his broom due to the 
> dementors), Ginny also gave him a singing get-well card.  Unfortunately, 
> 



~Erin~
Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus.
Stellae cadunt de caelo.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morine10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 26 03:12:48 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:12:48 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Picking a Valentine nit (was Ginny/Girl Harry, yada, yada)
Message-ID: <f3.89c02b1.27f00db0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15161

In a message dated 3/25/01 9:57:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, editor at texas.net 
writes:


> *ahem* There are those of us out here who still don't think Ginny sent
> the Valentine. I think Lockhart arranged for all of them, down to who
> got them and the smarmy poetry. I think she ran in tears because she was
> under tremendous stress and she *does* hero-worship Harry and now he's
> going to think *she* sent it and hate her! Plus, it was in front of all
> those other people who'll think she sent it, too! Heck, *I'd* run out of
> the room in those circumstances.
> 

I'm with you Amanda.  I never thought that Ginny sent that valentine.  The 
valentines are from Lockhart to the students -not from other students.  "My 
friendly card-carrying cupids!"  beamed Lockhart.  "They will be delivering 
your valentines!"  To me this says that the valentines are from him.  Nowhere 
does it say you can arrange to have a signing valentine sent to another 
student.  I agree that Ginny is just stressed.  Besides, I refuse to believe 
that she would even think of sending something like that to Harry. :) That 
poem had Lockhart's cheesiness written all over it. 

~Mo

~*~*Dungobombs Rule*~*~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bohners at pobox.com  Mon Mar 26 03:10:05 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:10:05 -0500
Subject: Did Snape know about Wormtail?
References: <99lp3g+gpo8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01ad01c0b5a4$31c916a0$8138acce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 15162

> Following on from the whole Sirius/Snape saga, there is something
> which has always confused me.  If Snape was a DE, one would assume
> that he knew that Wormtail was the spy - afterall, Wormtail is a
> fellow DE.

But Snape very likely had no way to know that Wormtail was a DE.  It's
stated in the books (sorry, can't remember the exact place, but I assume
it's near the end of GoF somewhere) that the DE's didn't all know each
other's identities.  This may be the reason that Snape gave an involuntary
start of surprise/alarm (and hastily covered it up) when Harry said Lucius
Malfoy was one of the DE's he'd seen with Voldemort -- Snape would have been
an idiot not to *suspect* Malfoy of allegiance to V., but that isn't the
same as knowing for sure that he was a DE.

Also, Wormtail may not have actually been an official DE -- I mean, yes, he
was working for Voldemort, but very secretly, and his true allegiance seems
to have come as a surprise to virtually everybody on both sides.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 26 03:29:49 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 03:29:49 -0000
Subject: JKR on bigotry and elves
Message-ID: <99md3d+i22m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15163

This is a thread that was covered a few days ago, but I just now 
found this.

Interviewer: "One of "Goblet"'s biggest themes is bigotry. It's 
always been in your books, with the Hitlerlike Lord Voldemort and his 
followers prejudiced against Muggles (nonmagical people). In book 4, 
Hermione tries to liberate the school's worker elves, who've been 
indentured servants so long they lack desire for anything else. Why 
did you want to explore these themes?" 

JKR: "Because bigotry is probably the thing I detest most. All forms 
of intolerance, the whole idea of "that which is different from me is 
necessary evil." I really like to explore the idea that difference is 
equal and good. But there's another idea that I like to explore, too. 
Oppressed groups are not, generally speaking, people who stand firmly 
together -- no, sadly, they kind of subdivide among themselves and 
fight like hell. That's human nature, so that's what you see here. 
This world of wizards and witches, they're already ostracized, and 
then within themselves, they've formed a loathsome pecking order." 

http://www.redmailorder.com/potter/c108.htm

Entertainment Weekly, SEPTEMBER 7, 2000, 'Fire' Storm

Doreen, the Corn_Patch_Witch




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 26 03:39:35 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:39:35 -0600
Subject: Percy
References: <99joan+me70@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABEB9F7.2CA876D9@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15164

Hi --

muggle-reader at angelfire.com wrote:

> <long snip from CoS> Clearly Ginny is in a state of mental distress.
> She is anxious, panicky, and hyperreflexic. Upon learning that Ginny
> was about to divulge "important" news, Percy, with egocentric urgency,
>
> thinks "It's all about ME!", hence choking on his tea. He does not
> even consider the important news is about the Chamber, much less that
> his sister could possibly have any information about the Chamber.
> Percy's only "concern" is to save himself. In one fell swoop, Percy
> discredits Ginny's "important" news, questions her integrity and
> discredits Ron's concern for Ginny.

I put a completely different spin on that scene.  I think Ginny
hero-worships Percy a bit, thus explaining her need to scamper away.
Percy's motivations -- I hadn't thought of self-centeredness.  That's
admittedly plausible.  But, I think it's equally plausible that
insecurity is at play.  She's apparently only recently discovered that
Percy has a girlfriend, and it's something Percy doesn't want to share
with his brothers.  He seems very shy about it, and he just leaps to the
conclusion that she was about to "tell" on him.  I also don't think it's
that unusual that he would think that her news involved something
personal -- she's an 11-yr old girl, his little sister.  Why would he
think that she had important revelations about the Chamber?  Ron & Harry
don't necessarily think so either.  They know they were asking her about
the Chamber, but her answer might have just as easily been to do with
Percy as with the Chamber.  All she'd said was that she had something
"important" to tell them.

> Moreover it shows that Percy follows his preconceived notions when
> assessing a situation rather than listening and sorting through the
> facts. Ron's response, to Hermione's comment that Percy wouldn't give
> any of his family to the Dementors, of "I don't know, " said Ron. "If
> he thought we were standing in the way of his career
Percy's really
> ambitious you know
"( GoF, Ch 27) doesn't seem completely off the mark
> in light of Percy's history.

I think it does.  I think the subtle ways that Rowling has illustrated
him demonstrating family loyalty & caring concern for his siblings in
times of trial indicates he would *not* let his ambitions get in the way
of family ties.  He's obviously going to have a struggle, because JKR
has also emphasized his ambition and his adherence to rules.  However,
my bet is with Hermione's judgment, not Ron's.

> I truly want Percy to side with Dumbledore and the rest of the
> Weasley's in the upcoming books. J. K. Rowling could have Percy see
> the light. But at this point, Percy's character can convincingly go
> either way.

Yeah, it can.  You're definitely right about that.   I have more
confidence in Percy though than in Ron to be honest.  I see Ron as a
much more likely pawn of the dark side than Percy.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 26 03:42:45 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:42:45 -0600
Subject: Gender balance (Children v Adult Lit)
References: <20010325160233.39611.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ABEBAB5.B07D7BEF@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15165

Hi --

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Nowhere in my post did I use the phrase "just children's books" or
> that "adults are trying to read too much into them".  I think
> children's literature is as important as any other sort.  When I
> referred to the British sort of children's literature, I meant the
> kind you can read as an adult and still appreciate.

But, you did say that it's perhaps asking too much of a children's
author like JKR to think about issues such as strong female characters
since she's writing books for children.  That's my main objection to
your post in any case -- I don't think these books can or should be
classified as exclusively children's literature.

Trina posted a few wks ago that her library has them shelved in both the
children's & adult fiction sections.  I think this is appropriate!  :--)

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 26 03:47:49 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:47:49 -0600
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary
Message-ID: <3ABEBBE5.4EADA3B6@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15166

Chapter 36 Summary

The Parting of the Ways

The chapter opens with Dumbledore binding Barty Crouch Jr. after the
conclusion of Crouch's veritaserum testimony.  Dumbledore asks
McGonagall to keep watch over Crouch while Snape summons Fudge to come
and question Crouch.

Dumbledore is sensitive to Harry's emotional state, leading him gently
to his office with assurances that Sirius will be waiting for them
there.  His voice shakes when he tells Harry that the Diggorys are with
Professor Sprout, head of Hufflepuff House, revealing his own emotions
are a bit strained.

Sirius is even more visibly worried and upset than Dumbledore, conveying
emotional warmth and concern for his godson the instant that Harry and
Dumbledore enter Dumbledore's office.

As Dumbledore tells Sirius about the interrogation of Crouch, Jr., Harry
sits numbly.  Fawkes must sense Harry's need for comfort as he flew over
to perch on Harry's knee.  Despite Sirius' attempt to stall the moment
when Harry must relive the events of that evening, Dumbledore insists
that putting it off will only make the pain that much worse.

When Harry tells that Pettigrew pierced his arm so that his own blood
could help resurrect Voldemort, Dumbledore asked to see the wound.
Harry then told them that because of using his blood, Voldemort was now
able to touch him without harm.

"For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like
triumph in Dumbledore's eyes.  But next second, Harry was sure he had
imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the
desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him."  [How many
discussions have we had about this paragraph in the last 9 months?!]

Dumbledore reveals that the phoenix feather in the core of both Harry's
and Voldemort's wands came from Fawkes, which caused the rare Priori
Incantatem effect (one of the wands forces the other wand to regurgitate
the spells it has performed in reverse order).  Sirius was quite
emotional about the revelation that Harry had seen the shadows of his
parents.  At this point in the narrative, Fawkes uses his tears to heal
Harry's wounded leg.

Dumbledore praises Harry's bravery, adding that he has "shouldered a
grown wizard's burden and found [himself] equal to it."  He insists that
Harry spend the night in the hospital wing with a sleeping potion and
asks Sirius if he would stay with him.  When they approach the hospital
wing, they encounter Molly, Bill, Ron and Hermione.  Dumbledore insists
that none of them are to question him until he's ready but tells them
they are welcome to stay with Harry if he wants them to.  Dumbledore
said he would be back to check on Harry once he'd met with Fudge.  Harry
drinks a few gulps of the sleeping potion, but clearly not enough to
keep him in a deep sleep.

He awakens shortly later to the sounds of yelling and commotion.
McGonagall is furious because Fudge brought a Dementor in to the castle
and the Dementor administered the Dementors' Kiss to Barty Crouch, Jr.

In the course of the conversation among Dumbledore, Fudge, McGonagall
and Snape, Fudge blusters and refuses to acknowledge the facts
indicating Voldemort's return.  He suggests that Dumbledore is foolish
to rely on the word of a lunatic like Crouch Jr. and a boy who,
according to Rita Skeeter, is "having funny turns all over the place."
Fudge indeed seems most concerned with maintaining the "stability" of
the wizarding world, even if it means failure to act quickly to alert
the magical community of possible dangers.  He cannot fathom
implementing Dumbledore's specific suggestions of removing Azkaban from
the control of the Dementors and sending envoys to the giants.
Dumbledore, in turn, accuses Fudge of being more enamored of the office
he holds than concerned with the overall safety of the wizarding world.
"If your determination to shut your eyes will carry you as far as this,
Cornelius," said Dumbledore, "we have reached a parting of the ways.
You must act as you see fit.  And I --- I shall act as I see fit."

At this point in the narrative, Snape reveals the existence of the Dark
Mark on his left forearm as proof that Voldemort has indeed returned.
Still refusing to believe anything that has been said to him, Fudge
leaves abruptly but not before unceremoniously dumping Harry's Triwizard
Tournament winnings in his lap.

After Fudge's departure, Bill Weasley offers to go to his father with
news.  Dumbledore is anxious that Arthur be in immediate contact with
those at the Ministry who will recognize Voldemort's threat and work
with their side.  Dumbledore dispatches Professor McGonagall to bring
Hagrid and Madame Maxime to his office.  After sending Madame Pomfrey on
another errand, Dumbledore asks Sirius to resume his usual form.  After
a moment of shock and words from Dumbledore, the two Hogwarts enemies of
old, Sirius and Snape, reluctantly shake hands.

Dumbledore charges each of them with a mission.  He asks Sirius to alert
the "old gang" (including Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher).
Harry was reluctant to see Sirius leave so quickly but agreed that he
should do what was needed.  Dumbledore then said to Snape: "you know
what I must ask you to do.  If you are ready . . . . if you are
prepared"  Snape, although appearing paler than usual, agreed and set
off at once.  Before leaving again, Dumbledore tells Harry that he
should drink the rest of his sleeping potion.

Trying to encourage Harry to take his potion and get some rest, Molly
advises him to think about what he'll buy with his winnings.  This
prompts Harry to try and speak about the night's events to some extent,
noting that he doesn't want the money and shouldn't have won it.  He's
fighting against tears at this point, but as Molly comforts him,
Hermione slams the window shut, jarring both Harry and Molly.  Molly
then wipes her eyes and hands the remaining sleeping potion to Harry.
Harry gulps it all down and falls into a deep dreamless sleep.

QUESTIONS:

1. Do we have any sense of how Snape reacted when Fudge summoned a
Dementor to accompany him to the castle?  We know McGonagall was furious
and tried to insist that the Dementor be removed, but how do we think
Snape reacted?  Someone pointed out last week that Snape was as
powerless to stop the Dementor from administering the Kiss to Crouch Jr.
as McGonagall.

2. Now: that pesky "gleam of triumph" in Dumbledore's eyes.  We've
discussed it & hashed it to death before, but does anyone have any new
thoughts about this?

3. Any thoughts about what causes one of the wands in a pair of dueling
"brother" wands to gain dominance and force the other one to start
regurgitating spells through the Priori Incantatem effect?

4. Do your perceptions of Sirius Black change after reading this
chapter?  Some have commented that his explosive temper and desire for
vengeance in PoA put them off his character a bit.  Did GoF (and this
chapter in particular) do anything to change your feelings about or
perceptions of Sirius?

5. We've discussed Cornelius Fudge a fair bit in the past.  Any new
thoughts?  Is he a head-in-the-sand Neville Chamberlain type or is his
refusal to act based on more sinister intentions?

6. Do we assume Dumbledore could have intended anything else other than
for Hagrid and Madame Maxime to serve as envoys to the giants?

7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part of the
"old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the cats
who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive and had
baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her likely role in
living in such close proximity to Harry all those years?

8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?

9. Was anyone else irritated at Hermione for interrupting the emotional
moment between Harry and Molly Weasley when they first read this
chapter?  We, of course, later understand what she was doing, but what
was your reaction when you first read this chapter?

Discuss!!





From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar 26 03:51:35 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:51:35 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Picking a Valentine nit (was Ginny/Girl Harry, yada, yada)
Message-ID: <8b.43cb786.27f016c7@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15167

In a message dated 03/25/2001 9:57:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
editor at texas.net writes:


> There are those of us out here who still don't think Ginny sent
> 

Gotta through my opinion in here: I believe that George and Fred sent it just 
to tease their little sis, embarass Harry, and get quite a good laugh out of 
it. 

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 26 04:01:07 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:01:07 -0600
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger
Message-ID: <3ABEBF03.DE07C242@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15168

Hi everyone --

I basically trimmed the Hermione FAQ a bit for this summary, but it's
still very long.  Think Caius' Dumbledore summary of a few weeks ago.
:--)

Penny

===================================

Character Summary: HERMIONE GRANGER

===================================

VITAL STATISTICS

Name: Hermione Granger

Pronounciation: Her-my-uh-knee

Age:  14/15 at the end of GoF (June 1995)
Birthdate: 19 September 1979 or 19 September 1980

Physical Description: Bushy brown hair (that can be tamed with effort
for special occasions), brown eyes and rather large front teeth (which
are magically shrunk by Madame Pomfrey mid-way through GoF).  We don't
know anything about her height or build.  Her ethnicity is most likely
Caucasian.

Background: Her parents are both muggle dentists, and she seems to be an
only child.  Most of us guess that she is from an upper middle-class
socio-economic background.  She is a muggle-born witch.

===========================================

CHARACTER & PERSONALITY

BOSSY:  Although their initial impression is that Hermione is a bossy
"know-it-all," Harry and Ron soon forge a lasting friendship with
Hermione Granger.  "There are some things you can't share without ending
up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is
one of them."

Hermione definitely is described as having a "shrill voice" and bossy
attitude in the beginning sections of SS. But, even as SS progresses,
her attitude and personality begin to change.  "Hermione had become a
bit more relaxed about breaking rules since Harry and Ron had saved her
from the mountain troll, and she was much nicer for it." She continues
to scold her friends for certain transgressions now and again (taking
Mr. Weasley's flying car in CoS for example), but she's not above
bending or breaking rules that further what she deems legitimate ends.
She still has bossy moments though, even as late as GoF.

Several members have continued to view her as initially painted in SS,
arguing that she needs to "lighten up." By contrast, others argue that
she has grown tremendously over the course of the series thus far and
bears little resemblance to the swotty insecure "know-it-all" that Harry
and Ron first met on the Hogwarts Express. As one member noted, she
begins thinking "outside the box," leaving her "comfort zone of books
and rules."  She begins to use her bookish knowledge to help her friends
and bend some rules in their fights against evil, putting all her
intellect to practical use. She also exhibits some common sense "street
smarts" from time to time, as when she wheedles Hagrid with flattery
into telling them which professors had placed enchantments on the
Philosopher's Stone.

INTELLIGENCE (WHY IS SHE A GRYFFINDOR INSTEAD OF IN RAVENCLAW?):

"You're the cleverest witch of your age I've ever met, Hermione." (Remus
Lupin)
Harry Potter & the Prisoner of Azkaban (page 346)

The overriding impression that most readers have of Hermione is that she
is intelligent, studies hard and receives high marks and academic
praise.  However, her intelligence is debatable in the sense that some
members perceive that she clearly has above-average innate intelligence,
while others believe that she achieves superior marks by supplementing
her average or slightly above average innate abilities with long hours
of studying and hard work. One member has suggested that she
overcompensates to make up for her lack of natural abilities.

Those who believe that she has above-average intelligence have stressed
that Hermione needs more than just "book smarts" to receive top marks in
her courses at Hogwarts.  The majority of Hogwarts classes and exams
appear to require students to demonstrate quite a bit of practical
application of knowledge; mere regurgitation on essay questions and
other rote memorization will only take a Hogwarts student so far. She
seems to have a healthy mix of "book smarts" and "common sense."

She is a very grounded logical and analytical thinker.  She was
skeptical from the beginning that Draco Malfoy could be Slytherin's Heir
in CoS.  Similarly, she has remained skeptical since the end of SS that
Snape could be Harry's nemesis (criticizing Ron when he leaps to this
conclusion at different points).  This same logical thinking wins her
Professor Trelawney's criticism in PoA.  Hermione is skeptical about
Divination from the beginning, and it's not much of a surprise to many
readers when she eventually walks out of the classroom.  She is scorned
by her peers from time to time for being "too logical" (and, in their
minds, insensitive) (such as when she attempts to show that Trelawney
did not predict the death of Lavender's pet rabbit or when she attempts
to use logic to explain the Crookshanks/Scabbers problems). Her
analytical skills are praised by Professor Moody (Crouch-as-Moody) as he
tells her that her mind works "the right way" to be an Auror. She
employs logic in trying to unravel the various mysteries that they
encounter in GoF. She uses these same skills to solve the Rita Skeeter
mystery in GoF.

It is implied that she achieved the top marks in her year for her first
year.  Because of comments and praise from her professors (such as
Lupin's quoted remark above), many assume she achieved the same top
marks for her year in each year thereafter (although final examinations
were cancelled at the end of CoS).

The emphasis on Hermione's intelligence has led many to wonder: if she's
so intelligent, why was she sorted into Gryffindor House rather than
Ravenclaw House ("where those of wit and learning will always find their
kind")?  A number of members have concluded that Hermione must value
bravery and chivalry and other Gryffindor characteristics over
intelligence and book-learning.  One member noted: "I think Hermione is
very bright and that she has a great love of learning.  But she's not
just book smart, she often uses her knowledge in the service of others,
to help them, to right wrongs or fight injustice.  And these are the
aspects that she values in herself and how she sees herself, so this is
why she is in Gryffindor."

INSECURE; BRAGGART: A number of members have expressed their belief that
Hermione is driven to over-achieve academically because of fundamental
insecurity.  They maintain that she has an obsessive fear of failure
(when it saw Hermione, the boggart did turn into a professor who told
her she'd failed all her courses after all). Some members interpret her
propensity to answer questions in class as evidence that she is a
braggart, arguing that she doesn't give anyone else the chance to answer
questions or make comments.

Others have countered that volunteering the correct answers in the
classroom and achieving high marks does not make Hermione a braggart.
She does indisputably enjoy receiving praise for her academic prowess in
the classroom.  She smiles or "flushes with pride" when professors
praise her.  However, she does not seem to call undue attention to her
successes (that is, she isn't heard telling others her marks and asking
about their own marks in comparison).

One member commented that "Hermione just likes to "know" things and
thinks that everyone else does too." Others believe that her academic
success could be driven as much or more by ambition than insecurity.  In
response to the assertion that she prevents other students from
answering questions in class, some members have argued that it is
ultimately the responsibility of the professors to insure that every
student is given an opportunity to answer.  They also argue that
Hermione shouldn't have to squelch herself from speaking up in class
("What so Hermione should censor herself so that the boys, oops, other
classmates don't feel bad and have a chance to answer the questions?"
said one member).

STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER?

In January 2000, online news magazine salon.com featured an article
criticizing the Harry Potter series for its "male-centeredness."  The
author (Christine Schoefer) is extremely critical of Hermione's
portrayal, likening her to a typical Hollywood "damsel in distress."
The author says that Hermione is regarded by Harry and Ron as a "wet
blanket," and adds her agreement, noting that with "her nose stuck in
books, she's no fun."

Rowling has responded to this general criticism (if not that specific
piece): "'I completely understand Hermione and I really love her and I
don't want to depict her as a feisty little . . . .'  She breaks off and
then starts to mutter, 'It irritates me.  It irritates me.  What
irritates me is that I am constantly, increasingly being asked 'Can we
have a strong female character, please?' Like they are ordering a side
order of chips.  I am thinking 'Isn't Hermione strong enough for you?'
She is the most brilliant of the three and they need her.  Harry needs
her badly."

Our members have for the most part sided with Rowling's analysis of
Hermione's character and its strengths.  While some have argued that the
series doesn't contain as many strong female characters as it might,
most everyone is in agreement that Hermione does qualify as a strong
female character.  The author of the salon.com piece certainly minimizes
Hermione's contributions to the final results in each of the novels.
Our members have pointed out that Hermione was integral to the ending
results in each book.  Without Hermione, Harry might not have solved the
potions logic enchantment guarding the Philosopher's Stone.  Without
Hermione, Harry and Ron might not have eliminated Malfoy as the Heir of
Slytherin and focused on other clues.  Without Hermione, Harry and Ron
might not ever have learned that the Chamber of Secrets contained a
basilisk.  Without Hermione, Harry would not have had a time turner or
the opportunity to rescue Buckbeak and Sirius.  Without Hermione, Harry
might not have known some of the spells and charms that enabled him to
escape Lord Voldemort in the graveyard in Little Hangleton. See also the
rebuttal to Schoefer's article in salon.com on 3 March 2000, in which
the author says of Schoefer: "perhaps she missed that Hermione, not Ron,
was the last to leave Harry's side in the first and third books."

Although the readers are limited by Harry's point-of-view in the
stories, it is strongly implied that Hermione has developed a mentoring
relationship with Professor McGonagall.  She excels in all her courses,
but her best subject appears to be the one taught by Professor
McGonagall: transfiguration.

OTHER STRENGTHS:

Hermione demonstrates unwavering loyalty to her friends. She also has
spirit, spunk and backbone, as most aptly illustrated when she slapped
Draco Malfoy in response to his taunts about Hagrid.

Hermione is also very responsible and practical.  This sense of
responsibility can lead her to take actions that can be misinterpreted
as interference into the affairs of others. For example, when she tells
Professor McGonagall about Harry's receipt of the Firebolt, she takes
this action out of concern for his safety and responsibility but the
boys clearly believe she should have minded her own business.  Harry
does later (after he has the Firebolt back) admit that Hermione was
"only trying to help."

By GoF, Hermione is revealing that she has a strong social conscience
and that she is inclined to take an activist role in rectifying social
wrongs.  It does seem she will need to curb her tendency to over-do
things, however, as it became increasingly clear in GoF that she was
disregarding the desires of those she was trying so hard to protect.
Hermione has no tolerance for bigotry or prejudice in any form.

She's been praised for her compassionate nature and her kind thoughtful
gestures (she's "unfailingly" kind to Neville for example). One member
has noted that she clearly "models compassion" to Harry. She's a highly
principled person, with a keen sense of "right and wrong." As she tells
Ron at the end of PoA when he asks why she didn't tell him or Harry
about the time turner, "I promised I wouldn't tell anyone."

Hermione appears to be a very perceptive person, attuned to the needs
and emotions of others around her.  She is sensitive to Harry's
disappointment that he cannot visit Hogsmeade during the first Hogsmeade
weekend. She was calm and reassuring to Hagrid regarding his problems
with Buckbeak. Hermione was perhaps the only person to notice and act on
Neville's keen distress while Professor Moody was demonstrating the
Cruciatus Curse in class. She recognized that Harry had not entered
himself into the Triwizard Tournament and was astute enough to realize
that he might need to lean on a friend and take a walk the next morning.
Sirius notes that Hermione is a good judge of character.

Hermione has developed a self-assured dignity and maturity by GoF. She
is self-confident enough to keep her Yule Ball date a secret and to
transform herself from a "nerd girl" into a stunning young woman for
this occasion. She has the social courage to stand up on behalf of her
friends and to challenge wrongs.

She seems very disdainful of "hero-worship," particularly in GoF.  She's
very critical of Viktor Krum in the beginning as she initially perceives
that he likes the attention he receives from admiring females.  She also
appears to dislike Fleur Delacour for similar reasons (that Fleur goes
out of her way to attract male attention).  Hermione appears to be
outraged when her male best friends seek out the most "beautiful" dates
they can get (or when they pay attention to girls based solely on
appearances).

OTHER WEAKNESSES:

Hermione certainly let her ambition (or insecure desire for academic
achievements, depending on your perspective) get out-of-hand during her
third year at Hogwarts. While some members criticized Hogwarts
(McGonagall in particular) for allowing Hermione to take on too heavy a
load, another member pointed out that this was a good way for Hermione
to learn her own limitations.

Hermione has a tendency to worry far too much and to let her worrisome
nature come across as meddlesome bossiness.  Her worries led her to
inform Professor McGonagall about Harry receiving the Firebolt, which
led to unnecessary strife with her best friends.  She exhibits the same
tendency when she threatens to tell Professor McGonagall about the
Marauder's Map.  She has perhaps an overdone respect for authority
figures ("We attacked a teacher.We attacked a teacher .Oh, we're going
to be in so much trouble.").  She also sometimes appears nervous and
tense during times of danger. Harry also correctly perceives that her
reaction to the news that his scar had been hurting him would be to
panic and worry excessively.

Some have criticized Hermione as being too much of a "superstar."  She's
smart, and as seen in GoF, she can change her appearance enough to make
a dramatic entry to the Yule Ball, to the surprise of her peers.  Others
have argued that taking pains with her appearance for that one special
first date doesn't detract from the fact that Hermione is, from all
appearances, very practical and down-to-earth (confessing to Harry the
next morning that she'd never take that much trouble with her hair on a
day-to-day basis).  The group's members have also speculated that
Hermione might be "over-done" in the HP fanfic universe (where one can
find stories in which she is depicted as the love interest of virtually
all the male characters).

Members have debated whether the characters might have any parallels
with the "Marauders" (Harry's father and best friends).  Which Marauder
would Hermione most closely parallel?  Most members concluded that she
is most like Remus Lupin (intelligent, hard-working), while others
paired her more closely with Sirius Black (bright and unswervingly
loyal).

===================================

ROMANCE:  Does she have as yet unrevealed romantic feelings for Harry?
Is that why she kissed him at the end of GoF?  Does she instead return
Ron's obvious romantic interest?  Or, does she have no romantic interest
in either of her best friends?  Could she be confused and perhaps have
some romantic interest in them both?  While it seems clear-cut to many
people that Ron has interest in Hermione (even though he doesn't know it
yet) and Harry has yet never expressed any interest in her, Hermione's
romantic interests are debatable.  The fandom is deeply divided on this
issue.  While some fans profess to be "no-shippers" ("they're just
kids!"), scores of others are deeply devoted to one "ship" or another
(the "H/H" (Harry/Hermione) and "R/H" (Ron/Hermione) ships being perhaps
the two most popular and vocal ships.   The FAQ has a cross-reference to
the "Potential Romance Pairings FAQ" at this point.

Note: If you're going to reply to this aspect of the character sketch,
be sure to put SHIP somewhere in your subject heading, especially if
this is the focus of your reply!

=========================================

LIKENESSES TO JK ROWLING:

Jo describes herself during her childhood as a "pudding-faced child with
glasses, a snotty, swotty little kid" who was quite insecure (she has
ascribed many of her own traits from her childhood to Hermione Granger's
character, including Hermione's social activism).  "The character of
Hermione is Rowling as a young girl: hard working, bookish, a
worrywart.  Rowling says she was painfully swotty, with NHS spectacles
and short, short hair.  She claims that she loosened up a bit later on,
but I'm not so sure about this.  At times during the interview she is
nothing short of earnest, especially about her work.  She defends
Hermione pretty fiercely, too. 'My American editor says that I am mean
to her because she is me.  But I don't think that I am mean to her.  I
love her dearly.'"

Rowling has also said that Harry "must have a lot of me in him, although
Hermione is a more faithful portrait of me when I was younger." She
seems to have a soft spot for Hermione, the character who has so much of
Rowling's own personality.  Commenting on her first meeting with
screenplay writer Steve Kloves, she says she just "melted" when Kloves
told her that his favorite character was Hermione.

==========================================

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

Many of these questions have been debated before, but since we've
discussed Hermione quite a bit in the past, I had a hard time coming up
with "new & original" questions for discussion.  Feel free to add in
your own though!

1. Is she still the same bossy know-it-all that she was in PS/SS or has
she "lightened up" quite a bit already?

2. Does she just study hard, either to make up for her average
intelligence or out of insecurity, or does she instead possess
above-average intelligence?  Both?

3. Any new thoughts on why she was sorted into Gryffindor rather than
Ravenclaw?

4. Is she a braggart?

5. Is Hermione male-identified?  Does she derive her self-worth from her
male friends and successes within a male-centered environment?  Or, as
some members have noted, is it instead possible that the readers don't
know about Hermione's relationships with other women as a result of the
limitations of Harry's point-of-view?

6. What might her future hold?  What sort of career might she choose
(assuming she's alive at the end of the series)?  If she had children,
is it possible she might choose to stay home with children (part-time or
full-time)?

7. Members have debated whether she merely bears a strong resemblance to
Rowling or if she is indeed Rowling's "surrogate" in the series.  Is she
the "heroine" to Harry's "hero" or just a strong female character who
bears a startling likeness to Rowling?

8. Will she make it to the end of the series alive?

9. Do you like or dislike Hermione?  Do you identify with her character?

Discuss!!









From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar 26 04:10:26 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:10:26 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Raven or vampire?
References: <99lesm+t5ic@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABEC131.B52CEDAB@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15169

Sarah Waggott wrote:

> I do however like the idea that he is an animagus and turns into a
> raven. While looking up a crossword clue the other day, I came across
> an article in the encyclopedia about ravens and found a few
> similarities to the Potions Master. Probably no more trustworthy than
> the evidence for him being a vampire, but see what you think.
>
>   1. Both have black beady eyes.

Well, actually, isn't it McGonagall who has been described, at least
once, as looking at someone "beadily"? Snape's eyes have glinted, but I
don't think they've been called "beady" anywhere. You can have black
eyes without having beady eyes. [apologies if I'm wrong and canon says
"beady" anywhere, but Snape fan that I am, I think I'd remember the
instance, since I would think it didn't fit him well.]

>   2. Snape has a long hooked nose, ravens have heavy hooked bills.

So does every bird of prey on the planet. So do lots of Italians, racial
Jews (from the genetic stock, didn't know how to say that), more than a
few Poles I know, etc., etc. I don't know that this correlation is
terribly significant.

>   3. Ravens are entirely black, as I mentioned before Snape dresses in
> black (though this could still be nothing more than personal choice).

Insert some variety of response to #2 here. Hooked noses and black color
just don't seem distinctive enough to be clear correlations. I think his
appearance and choice of clothing, like the adjectives selected to
describe him, are the way they are for atmosphere, for saying something
about his personality, rather than clues as to other forms.

>   4. Ravens eat carrion (dead flesh), Snape was a death eater. (Yes
> this link is *very* weak, but still a possibility. A slim one).

No slimmer than 2 and 3. But I do respect your ability to balance out
there on that skinny little limb...   :::grins and waves from the
Snape/Lily branch:::

> Snape being a raven would fit in with the fact he manages to travel
> very quickly to some places as he could fly there.

What instances are you speaking of? I don't recall any time that Snape
appears anywhere that he couldn't have gotten there in his own form (but
it *is* late and I'm tired...).

> It could also be a possible explanation for his appearances at crucial
> moments with Dumbledore and McGonagall ~ Animagi are rare (I think) so
> two in the school would be likely to stay close to each other and the
> headteacher.

More likely that, at critical times, as a trusted lieutenant of
Dumbledore's, he's *already* with him or in immediate contact.

> It could also be a factor in Snape's hatred of the Marauders. If
> becoming an Animagus is hard work, I would imagine it would be nice to
> feel part of a very select group. Imagine the shock when it turns out
> that not only have others in the school completed the training, they
> just happen to be your worst enemies, the ones you like to feel
> superior to.

But Snape didn't know they were animagi. Nobody did. Or else, when
Sirius escaped from Azkaban, Snape would have told Dumbledore (if he
hadn't already). Snape, all through PoA, sincerely believes that Black
really did the crimes for which he was convicted, and just as sincerely
wants him caught. In no way would Snape have withheld this information
from Dumbledore. And Dumbledore did not know about the Marauders being
animagi until Sirius told him, just before he escaped with Buckbeak.

Also, if Snape knew their animagus forms, would he not have recognized
the large black dog in the infirmary in that critical scene in GoF?
Until Sirius transforms to human form, Snape does not pay any attention
to or react to him, which I take to mean that even if he thinks it's odd
for a dog to be there, oh well. In other words, it's a dog. Not, oh,
wow, there's Sirius in dog form.

> It could also be a reason why Snape didn't push for their expulsion;

I think he did. Probably more than once. Which might have been one
reason the DeathEater crowd became interested in him.

> he may have found respect for them. Not the kind of respect Harry has
> for Dumbledore or anything, more like that nagging little voice that
> says: "Maybe they're not so bad after all..."

So far as I've seen, Snape equivocates on nothing. But I could be
wrong..

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar 26 04:19:41 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:19:41 -0600
Subject: McGonagall must know (was Some stuff about PoA, Moving Pictures, and  Harry's permission slip)
References: <66.d467356.27efb919@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3ABEC35D.8F18DDD0@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15170

cryptykgrl at aol.com wrote:

>     2) At the end of PoA, when Harry is on the train home, Pig

*ahem* the owl soon to be known as Pig

> shows up at the window carrying a letter from Sirius.  Enclosed in
> that letter is a note giving Harry permission to go to Hogsmeade when
> the rest of the school goes.
> Wouldn't that cause some problems?  Early in the book, it's Minerva
> who collects the slips from all the Gryffindors, so you would think
> that to go to Hogsmeade, he would have to give his note to her in
> GoF.  However, correct me
> if I'm wrong, but she doesn't know that Sirius is innocent, does she?
> I mean, if all of a sudden, Harry gave her a note signed by a wizard
> who she thought had murdered 13 innocent people, then escaped from
> Azkaban and was still out there somewhere, wouldn't that make her just
> a little suspicious?

This has been discussed before, when Snape's knowledge was the question.
At the end of PoA, only Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Dumbledore know the
truth about Sirius. Snape still does not, because while he was present
in the Shrieking Shack during all the explanations and whatnot, he was
unconscious. He missed hearing or seeing anything that would have
changed his mind.

However, when Sirius transforms in front of him at the end of GoF, Snape
does not react to him as a dangerous murderer, a threat to anyone, or
anything on that scale. It's back to being simply a vehement personal
animosity.

So the conclusion is that at some point in the intervening year,
Dumbledore filled Snape in on the truth of events. Snape was probably
not happy about it, but he clearly believed Dumbledore, judging from his
[Snape's] reaction in GoF. Contrast it with Molly Weasley's, who has no
idea that Sirius is innocent, and it is clear that Snape knows the
truth. Therefore, by extension, McGonagall must also know. She's
Dumbledore's official #2, after all, so I'd be very surprised if Snape
had been informed and she had not.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 26 04:32:09 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:32:09 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Raven or vampire?
References: <99lesm+t5ic@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ec01c0b5ad$b9bcc620$8714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15171


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Waggott" <s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 12:54 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Raven or vampire?


Hi! Sorry if this topic has been discussed to death already, I
trawled the archives for a long while and found no evidence of any
similar posts.

A while ago a debate raged as to whether Snape is a vampire or an
animagus.
*******************
If legend & myths are correct, Snape can not be a vampire, as he saw his
reflection during the Barty Crouch Jr. scene in Moody's office. (I think it
was Moody's office)

Doreen, the Corn_Patch_Witch




From SnapeFan1 at aol.com  Mon Mar 26 04:38:52 2001
From: SnapeFan1 at aol.com (SnapeFan1 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 04:38:52 -0000
Subject: HP game
Message-ID: <99mh4s+cnj6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15172

I was just wondering if anybody out there knew anything about the HP 
video game. It is supposed to be made for playstation this spring. 
Well, now I can't find any info on it. I know this would be a big hit 
in my house.

Snape's number one fan




From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 05:17:31 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 05:17:31 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary
In-Reply-To: <3ABEBBE5.4EADA3B6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99mjdb+n8fp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15173

Great summary Penny.
QUESTIONS:
1. Do we have any sense of how Snape reacted when Fudge summoned a
Dementor to accompany him to the castle?  We know McGonagall was 
furious and tried to insist that the Dementor be removed, but how do 
we think Snape reacted?  Someone pointed out last week that Snape was 
as powerless to stop the Dementor from administering the Kiss to 
Crouch Jr. as McGonagall.

--I don't think that either had the power to stop the Dementor. 
Glancing back over the text quickly didn't seem to give me any new 
insight. Dumbledore and Mcgonagall were obviously very angry. Snape 
most likely was too.

2. Now: that pesky "gleam of triumph" in Dumbledore's eyes.  We've
discussed it & hashed it to death before, but does anyone have any new
thoughts about this?

--The general consenus seems to be that by putting Harry's blood into 
him he created some type of weakness, right? That makes the most 
sense but really your guess is as good as mine, and her's, and his 
and his, and his, and his, and hers and about EVERYONE who's joined 
this list....

3. Any thoughts about what causes one of the wands in a pair of 
dueling "brother" wands to gain dominance and force the other one to 
start regurgitating spells through the Priori Incantatem effect?

--Magic seems to come from an innate ability inside each person, but 
the wand is a direction for that magical power. In a sense, since the 
wand has the same core, and therefore the same direction which magic 
is funneled. Since that force is the same it's as if it was a persons 
own wand and therefore the specific substance  that reacts with a 
persons innate magic. It's as if they are working against their own 
self. (Does that make sense?)

When Harry buys his wand Ollivander says that the Pheonix gave only 
one other feather, which leads me to believe that usually an animal 
gives more than one or two feathers, heartstrings, hair etc. If say 
there were 100 tail hairs from  the same unicorn PI mightn't be that 
uncommon. 

5. We've discussed Cornelius Fudge a fair bit in the past.  Any new
thoughts?  Is he a head-in-the-sand Neville Chamberlain type or is his
refusal to act based on more sinister intentions?

--He's the former all the way, at least in my opinon. He is so 
blinded by his own power that he refuses to believe the reality of 
what he's hearing. I've never really liked him, and can't stand him 
in this chapter. It just makes you want  to smack him and say "This 
is real you arse, and if you deny it you're gonna be dead. So 
listen!" Of course Dumbledore does say that, but not in those words. 
I don't think that Fudge is evil, but his closemindedness certainly 
makes him no better than evil.

6. Do we assume Dumbledore could have intended anything else other 
than for Hagrid and Madame Maxime to serve as envoys to the giants?

--It seems like that's what they'll do. Which means Hagrid'll have to 
meet his mother and that should be interesting. 

On a related note, it's late so if this is in canon and I forgot 
sorry, where do you guys think the giants live? Not in Britain.
 
7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part of the
"old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the cats
who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive and had
baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her likely role 
in living in such close proximity to Harry all those years?

--It's funny because we've never actually met Mrs. Figg erm, Arabella 
in the canon. She's just been metioned. But didn't JKR say that cats 
are going to be important to the overall plot? Kinda funny though 
considering she doesn't even like cats.

8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?

--I don't really like the go back and be a spy in Voldy's camp idea, 
it's to simple. Then again I've not come up with much better so-


9. Was anyone else irritated at Hermione for interrupting the 
emotional moment between Harry and Molly Weasley when they first read 
this chapter?  We, of course, later understand what she was doing, 
but what was your reaction when you first read this chapter?

--I don't really remember? It is kind of annoying at the time, but of 
course we understand later....and it shows Hermione's character 
because she doesn't try to boast that she's caught Rita, it isn't 
very important in light of the recent events. She waits for the right 
time. Good for Hermione.

Discuss!!

--I don't think you have to worry about a lack of discussion on this 
list. ;-)

Scott




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 05:32:29 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 05:32:29 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary
In-Reply-To: <3ABEBBE5.4EADA3B6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99mk9d+1066t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15174

> 4. Do your perceptions of Sirius Black change after reading this
> chapter?  Some have commented that his explosive temper and desire 
for
> vengeance in PoA put them off his character a bit.  Did GoF (and 
this
> chapter in particular) do anything to change your feelings about or
> perceptions of Sirius?

Well, I think that Sirius's portrayal in GoF overall indicates that, 
given the opportunity, he would be a perfectly adequate father for 
Harry. The only problem I can see is illustrated when Harry receives 
a reprimand from Sirius for going off with Krum after being told 
about the third task. Harry's immediate reaction (if I remember 
correctly) is indignation, because he knows that Sirius was such a 
troublemaker when he was at school. 

But all of GoF, and this chapter in particular, show that Sirius has 
the emotional and mental capacity it would take to raise his godson. 
The stuff in PoA was desperation mixed with some PTSD, probably.

> 7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part of the
> "old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the 
cats
> who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive and 
had
> baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her likely 
role in
> living in such close proximity to Harry all those years?

Probably keeping an eye on Harry to make sure that nothing life-
endangering was happening to him (didn't help him out even though she 
was probably aware of the emotional abuse, though -- wonder what her 
excuse for that was). And also to have someone near enough to get him 
out if Voldemort were to return to full power and somehow break 
through Dumbledore's protective barriers.

> 8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?

Nothing pleasant, that's for sure. I would say that Dumbledore had 
asked him to go back undercover, but there's no way that he would 
ever think Voldemort that stupid. No way will Snape ever be trusted 
by the other Death Eaters.

> 9. Was anyone else irritated at Hermione for interrupting the 
emotional
> moment between Harry and Molly Weasley when they first read this
> chapter?  We, of course, later understand what she was doing, but 
what
> was your reaction when you first read this chapter?

Well . . . at that point I'd figured out that Skeeter was an 
animagus, probably an insect, and that Hermione had figured it out as 
well. But I was startled. I felt like the moment had been cut short 
and it shouldn't have been. I felt like that was something that both 
Harry and the reader needed, and Hermione accidentally slamming the 
window (which I think she felt badly about) was a jarring way of 
ending the chapter.

Stacy




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 26 05:41:15 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 05:41:15 -0000
Subject: Is Draco evil?
In-Reply-To: <99k1am+tjs2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99mkpr+79q6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15175

After having read the "Is Draco evil?" posts, I was re-reading the 
scene in GoF, chapter 9, the Death Mark. The thing I love the most 
about this group is, that it makes me think about the things I read 
from so many different points of view. I might have read that chapter 
five times, but with only my own thoughts & ideas, it probably would 
have read pretty much the same each time. Draco was being nasty and 
was taunting Hermione.

This time I read it with the idea that Draco might not be a bad guy, 
but he has to "appear bad" to live up to his dad's expectations. 

For instance, Draco had been watching the Muggle tossing from a 
clearing in the woods. If he were truly his evil father's "chip off 
the old block," he would have been out in the midst of the action, 
laughing his head off and making sport of them. 


He tells Ron Weasley, "Hadn't you better be running along now? You 
wouldn't want HER spotted, would you?" (Why warn them? If he truly 
hated Hermione & company, he would have called the jeering crowd over 
with something like, "Hey! Here is another Muggle!!Come and get her!! 
But be careful! This one THINKS she is a witch!!")

"What's that supposed to mean?" Hermione said defiantly.
"Granger, they're after MUGGLES," said Malfoy. D'you want to be 
showing off your knickers in midair? Because if you do, hang 
around... they're moving this way and it would give us all a laugh."
(I think this whole conversation is more of a warning to Hermione 
than just taunting her)

Even his row with Harry was still a warning ... He was letting Harry 
know that if he wanted to stand there and defend whether or not 
Hermione was a witch or a muggle ... and take a chance that this was 
what the frenzied crowd would think ... then go ahead ... be stupid 
and just stand there.

Even his last words to them were directed almost as another warning 
to Hermione, in that "boys can't admit liking girls fashion", 
"Keep that big bushy head down, Granger," sneered Malfoy.

When asked if his dad were down there among the men in robes, Malfoy 
replied, "Well if they were, I wouldn't be likely to tell you, would 
I, Potter?" ... which suggests that maybe Malfoy is not totally aware 
of his father's dark side.

I will keep a more open mind when re-reading the rest of GoF again.

Doreen, the Corn_Patch_Witch




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 06:43:37 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 06:43:37 -0000
Subject: Dads - Percy & Riddle - Valentine
Message-ID: <99moep+gb13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15176

a. wrote:

>How many wizarding families (or Muggle families) have we even met?  
>Harry only knows about his own and his friends' families - we have no 
>way of knowing weather Dean Thomas or the Patils, for example, are 
>raised by single or stay-at-home Dads.

I think the Creeveys' dad is likely a single dad (message 8942).  No 
evidence, but the way Colin refers to him suggests it.

Milz wrote:

>I agree there is a bit of interesting Percy foreshadowing in the 
>books. It puzzled me why in CoS Percy didn't know Voldemort was Tom 
>Riddle. He was reading a book about Hogwarts Prefects who went onto 
>powerful positions, unless that book wiped out all reference to Tom 
>Riddle. 

Dumbledore says at the end of CoS that few people connect Voldemort 
with Riddle, so presumably it isn't in any books, including the 
best-selling thriller _Prefects Who Gained Power_.  To most people, TR 
is just a name on an old trophy, along with hundreds of others in the 
Hogwarts collection.  I wonder whether we will ever learn why so few 
people know TR=LV, or any more about it.  

But anyway, no one knows about Tom Riddle before the end of CoS except 
Ginny and Harry from reading the diary, Ron because Harry told him 
what he learned from it, and presumably Hermione because he would have 
told her too.  Afterwards, sure, the rest of the Weasleys probably got 
the story.

Amanda wrote:

>There are those of us out here who still don't think Ginny sent
>the Valentine. I think Lockhart arranged for all of them, down to who
>got them and the smarmy poetry. 

I think Draco sent it, personally.  He got to humiliate Harry and a 
Weasley in one fell swoop, plus it gave vent to his sublimated (or do 
I mean repressed?--unknown even to himself) feelings for Harry.  <g>

Amy Z
DM/HP forever!  (In fanfic, that is.  In canon, it would make me 
retch)

---------------------------------------------------
 The full list of these fouls, however, has never
 been made available to the wizarding public.  It
 is the Department's view that witches and wizards
 who see the list 'might get ideas'.
                      -Quidditch Through the Ages
---------------------------------------------------




From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 26 06:53:44 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 00:53:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 36 Summary
References: <3ABEBBE5.4EADA3B6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <014f01c0b5c1$817ad400$8714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15177

1. Do we have any sense of how Snape reacted when Fudge summoned a
Dementor to accompany him to the castle?  We know McGonagall was furious
and tried to insist that the Dementor be removed, but how do we think
Snape reacted?  Someone pointed out last week that Snape was as
powerless to stop the Dementor from administering the Kiss to Crouch Jr.
as McGonagall.
***
I think that now, more than ever, Snape has to walk a fine line. He knows
that Dumbledore trusts him. So, I think he either did not react at all,
outwardly, at the risk of tipping his hand to the Dementors, who are
followers of Voldemort, just waiting for his rise.
I guess what I don't understand is ... if the Dementors are Voldemort's
great allies, why would they be so anxious to deliver the Kiss to Crouch
Jr., knowing that he is one of Voldemort's strongest supporters, even to the
end?

What kind of rank does Fudge have over the Dementors that is greater than
that of Voldemort, especially now that they know he is back?

2. Now: that pesky "gleam of triumph" in Dumbledore's eyes.  We've
discussed it & hashed it to death before, but does anyone have any new
thoughts about this?
***
I still think that Voldemort has been set up by Dumbledore into a false
sense of security by thinking that being able to touch Harry, now, is a big
deal. His cocky attitude will be his downfall.

3. Any thoughts about what causes one of the wands in a pair of dueling
"brother" wands to gain dominance and force the other one to start
regurgitating spells through the Priori Incantatem effect?
***
I think since they both have feathers from a Phoenix, and the Phoenix's song
was in Harry's head, it was helping him and not Voldemort. And an aside ...
I wonder what Dumbledore, Sirius, Snape, and Lupin's wands are made of? And
if this has anything to do with the OoP?

4. Do your perceptions of Sirius Black change after reading this
chapter?  Some have commented that his explosive temper and desire for
vengeance in PoA put them off his character a bit.  Did GoF (and this
chapter in particular) do anything to change your feelings about or
perceptions of Sirius?
***
I could hardly blame Sirius for being either short-fused or vengeful.
Imagine all that time in Azkaban because of Pettigrew. Of course, I could be
a bit prejudiced. I could not stand Peter Pettigrew from the git go. I do
not like sneaky people. I would rather have someone who is openly hostile
than one who is a sneaky, whiney git. (I love that word ... I don't know
that we have one that works as well that I can use here:)

5. We've discussed Cornelius Fudge a fair bit in the past.  Any new
thoughts?  Is he a head-in-the-sand Neville Chamberlain type or is his
refusal to act based on more sinister intentions?
***
I think Fudge is hiding something ... from everyone ... playing both ends to
the middle. He has things to hide from both Dumbledore and Voldemort.
Another sneaky critter that I do not trust.

6. Do we assume Dumbledore could have intended anything else other than
for Hagrid and Madame Maxime to serve as envoys to the giants?
***
No. I think that is exactly what he is intending. Voldemort thinks he will
just snap his fingers and all of his followers will return to him. He says
so in ch 33. "When Azkaban is broken open, the Lestranges will be honored
beyond their dreams. The Dementors will join us.... they are our natural
allies... we will recall the banished giants... I shall have all my devoted
servants returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear....

7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part of the
"old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the cats
who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive and had
baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her likely role in
living in such close proximity to Harry all those years?
***
I think she watched over him and the area when Harry was home from Hogwarts.
I still think she is an animagi in the form of Crookshanks. Steve Vander Ark
suggested she might use a cat for a spy ... why not Crookshanks?
***
8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?
***
I think it scares the hell out of Snape and that he must have complete
confidence in both himself and Dumbledore to rejoin Voldemort and convince
him that he has not strayed from his side to that of AD's.
***
9. Was anyone else irritated at Hermione for interrupting the emotional
moment between Harry and Molly Weasley when they first read this
chapter?  We, of course, later understand what she was doing, but what
was your reaction when you first read this chapter?
***
I think I might have been disappointed that there was not more to that train
of thought ... but I figured it was just a too emotional scene that the
author figured needed a distraction to break it up before we were all in
tears. She is saving it up for the future. *sniff*

(I missed that part .. it is where she caught Rita Skeeter...)

Doreen, the Corn Patch Witch
***









From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Mon Mar 26 07:36:28 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:36:28 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione
Message-ID: <99mrhs+3pll@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15180

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

> 
> A number of members have expressed their belief that
> Hermione is driven to over-achieve academically because of 
fundamental insecurity.   

Rowling: "I see her as someone who does have quite a lot of 
vulnerability in her personality (...) she is not an uncommon female 
type - the little girl who feels plain and hugely compensates by 
working very hard and wanting to get everything just so." (Time 
Magaine, NO. 18, 2000) 

I would say this support the members mentioned above theory. 

/Jennifer





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 07:37:15 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:37:15 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger
In-Reply-To: <3ABEBF03.DE07C242@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99mrjb+hrh2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15181

Penny wrote:

>Although the readers are limited by Harry's point-of-view in the
>stories, it is strongly implied that Hermione has developed a 
mentoring
>relationship with Professor McGonagall.  She excels in all her 
courses,
>but her best subject appears to be the one taught by Professor
>McGonagall: transfiguration.

Can anyone point to specifics about either of these points?  A 
mentoring relationship fits, IMO, but I see only the vaguest hints of 
it; a relationship with Vector seems as likely.  And I don't see 
anything to suggest that Hermione's strongest subject is 
transfiguration.  There are a few examples of her doing particularly 
well there, but ditto for Potions, Defense (as you point out, Lupin 
calls her "the cleverest witch of your age I've ever met" [and he knew 
Lily!] even though she got less than full marks on her final for him), 
and especially Charms (viz. her 112% on the final in PS/SS and, in 
GoF, her invaluable Charms help in tasks 1 and 3, and to a lesser 
extent 2; the 3rd task stuff shows advanced DADA talent too).

>Hermione appears to be a very perceptive person, attuned to the needs
>and emotions of others around her.  <snip>
> She recognized that Harry had not entered
>himself into the Triwizard Tournament and was astute enough to 
realize
>that he might need to lean on a friend and take a walk the next 
morning.

My favorite Hermione moment:  bringing Harry the toast.  How many 
13/14-year-olds have one-tenth this much sensitivity?

>4. Is she a braggart?

No!  Okay, you can cite moments of overenthusiasm in class, but they 
are heavily weighted toward the beginning of the series.  Come on, 
let's give her a break.  We know Harry's wondering how he's going to 
measure up in the wizarding world--Hermione surely has the same 
insecurities (on the plus side, she isn't famous, but on the minus 
side, she's Muggle-born).  As Penny said, she doesn't flaunt her high 
marks.  (She still needs to work on the know-it-all tendency, IMO.  A 
bit.)

As you can tell, my answer to #9 is that I relate to Hermione very 
much.

Amy Z
who always raised her hand more than anyone in class . . . no, really?

-----------------------------------------------------
 Those who have been stung by a Billywig suffer 
 giddiness followed by levitation.  Generations of 
 young Australian witches and wizards have attempted 
 to catch Billywigs and provoke them into stinging 
 in order to enjoy these side effects . . . 
           -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
-----------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 07:40:40 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:40:40 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary
In-Reply-To: <3ABEBBE5.4EADA3B6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99mrpo+p232@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15182

Great stuff, Penny, on this and the Hermione sketch!

>4. Do your perceptions of Sirius Black change after reading this
>chapter?  Some have commented that his explosive temper and desire 
for
>vengeance in PoA put them off his character a bit.  Did GoF (and this
>chapter in particular) do anything to change your feelings about or
>perceptions of Sirius?

I liked Sirius already by the end of PoA, but this chapter definitely 
gave me even more to like.  One thought:  one of the key moments where 
Sirius shows a lot of emotion is when Harry talks, not about seeing 
James and Lily, but about Cedric's request that he retrieve his body. 
 It's at this point that Harry is overwhelmed and looks over to see 
that Sirius has sat down and buried his face in his hands.

Now, this doesn't tell us definitively that that detail is what made 
Sirius break down.  It might be any piece of the story; it might be 
Harry's own inability to continue talking.  But Cedric's request is 
the point at which we see him so emotional (weeping?), and it left me 
with a more complex vision of Sirius than ever before.  We know James 
was his best friend, we know he's consumed by guilt about his and 
Lily's deaths; his reaction to Harry's seeing them is something we 
could have predicted (though no less powerful for that).  But that he 
is so moved by the Cedric piece of the story tells us something we 
didn't already know about him.  I really loved this part.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------
 "Winky is having trouble adjusting, Harry 
 Potter," squeaked Dobby confidentially.
                 -HP and the Goblet of Fire
--------------------------------------------




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Mon Mar 26 07:59:33 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:59:33 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary
In-Reply-To: <99mk9d+1066t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99mst5+4ul4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15183

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> > > > 7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part 
of the
> > "old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the 
> cats
> > who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive and 
> had
> > baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her likely 
> role in
> > living in such close proximity to Harry all those years?
> 
I have to wonder about how much the Dursleys knows about her. If she 
was mentioned in the letter from Dumbledore, do they not have to know 
that she is a witch? How come they don?t seem to, um, react in some 
sort of aggressive way (Vernon in particular) every time she is being 
mentioned? They (he) does so every time Harrys school is being talked 
about - or his friends or any other wiarding aspect. Even if they 
dont know she is a witch they have to know she is in some way related 
to Harrys world and Dumbledore.

 She could of course just have sneaked up at their door, offering to 
babysit for Harry, managing to act like a muggle (which I do think 
she could have, picturing her as a pretty competent person). But 
wouldn?t that mae them suspiciuos? Or did they advertise for someone 
to watch him once a year?

what do you think? 

/jennifer
   
p.s Has she been living like a muggle all these years? For example, 
it seems like the cat-fotos she let Harry have a look at every year,  
doesn?t move. So she has learnt to handle a mugglecamera? I have to 
say she is way ahead of many other w?ards d.s 




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 08:24:45 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 08:24:45 -0000
Subject: Nitpicky Snapethoughts
Message-ID: <99mucd+p39f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15184

Doreen wrote:

>If legend & myths are correct, Snape can not be a vampire, as he saw 
his
>reflection during the Barty Crouch Jr. scene in Moody's office. 

It's not exactly a reflection--it's a frozen image in a Foe-Glass.  
JKR invented that (I think) so if she wants it to be able to show 
vampires, it will.  (And Moody wouldn't have anything less than a 
top-of-the-line Foe-Glass, would he? <g>)

Amanda wrote:

>So the conclusion is that at some point in the intervening year,
>Dumbledore filled Snape in on the truth of events. Snape was probably
>not happy about it, but he clearly believed Dumbledore, judging from 
his
>[Snape's] reaction in GoF. Contrast it with Molly Weasley's, who has 
no
>idea that Sirius is innocent, and it is clear that Snape knows the
>truth.

Hmmm...I have a different take on this.  It is possible, but not 
clear fact, IMO, that Snape knew.  I think it's likely that Snape 
didn't take seriously the contention that Sirius was innocent until 
the moment Sirius transfigured in GoF.

IIRC, Snape and Fudge already know Sirius's version of events from 
Dumbledore at the end of PoA.  So Snape has heard it twice:  in the 
Shack and from Dumbledore.  He doesn't believe it, naturally; SB and 
RL are lying, the kids are Confunded, and Dumbledore's too trusting 
for his own good.

And so things stand through GoF.  Dumbledore might or might not tell a 
couple of people (e.g. McGonagall) the truth about Sirius.  He does 
tell the staff something that lets them know that Harry can safely 
leave the grounds, even though a dangerous lunatic Death Eater who 
wants to finish off the Potters is still on the loose (I figure he 
told them he's put some kind of protection around Harry that no one 
else knows how to do--he IS the best wizard in the world, after all). 
 Since Sirius is still Public Enemy #1, it seems clear that the 
Hogwarts staff (again, with a possible exception or two) still thinks 
he's guilty--otherwise rumors would be sure to leak back to the MOM.  

So why, you ask, doesn't Snape react like Molly?  'Cause he's Severus 
Snape.  He doesn't show surprise easily, even when he's feeling it.  
He would never do something so unsanguine as yelp at the sight of 
Sirius Black.

He =is= startled to see him, which could mean (a) That nutter who 
wants to kill Harry is here in the hospital by his bedside?  Oh man, 
that whole thing again--don't tell me Dumble really thinks he's 
innocent, or just (b) Sirius Black is an Animagus?!  It could, of 
course, mean both.

BTW, I wonder what Snape thinks of the interaction between Sirius and 
Harry?  It's clear that somehow in the past year, they've come to know 
and care for each other.  His mind must be blown. 

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------------
   "Dumbledore, you know what that woman is?"
   "I consider her to be a very able Headmistress--
 and an excellent dancer," said Dumbledore quietly.
                       -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------------------




From zora_djevojka at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 08:29:16 2001
From: zora_djevojka at yahoo.com (zora_djevojka at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:29:16 +0200
Subject: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <985576647.1823.64010.l7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010326101052.00a0fec0@rudjer.irb.hr>

No: HPFGUIDX 15185


I asked:

>  why didn't teenage Snape push to get Sirius expelled. He could have, he 
> certainly
>  believed that Sirius attempted to kill him through that "prank".

and Amanda answered:

>How do we know that he didn't? Sirius himself makes the comment
>someplace that Snape was always following them around, trying to get
>them expelled. I'm betting that Snape *did* try to get Sirius expelled,
>on this and probably other occasions, but that Sirius had managed to let
>the info about the tunnel "slip" or be overheard or something other
>than, "Hey, Sev, ol' buddy ol' pal, here's where we go." Only the latter
>would indicate intent, and only clear intent would be enough to expel (I
>think).

That is likely, and in that case Snape would have only himself to blame. 
Not the mention that the realization he was tricked so masterfully would 
add to his later hatred of Sirius.



>Kind of adds a dimension to Snape's "whoops" slip of the tongue about
>Lupin being a werewolf. Doing the same to Lupin as Lupin's friend did to
>him. ["Oh, terribly sorry, did I *say* that? My mistake...." but damage
>done.]

But why didn't he make that slip _then_ instead in PoA. Remus says that 
Snape glimpsed him at the end of the tunnel [iirc], and if parents are not 
too pleased to have a werewolf teaching their children [even with the help 
of the Wolfsbane potion], they would have been horrified that there is a 
teenage werewolf running around the campus.

Vlatka
  


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From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 09:26:52 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:26:52 -0000
Subject: Nitpicky Snapethoughts
In-Reply-To: <99mucd+p39f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99n20s+inaa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15186

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
 
> He =is= startled to see him, which could mean (a) That nutter who 
> wants to kill Harry is here in the hospital by his bedside?  Oh 
man, 
> that whole thing again--don't tell me Dumble really thinks he's 
> innocent
If Snape really believe that, his reaction in that case would be a. 
draw out his wand and stunned Sirius or b. voice his opinion 
about 'The nutter who wants to kill Harry' directly with Dumbledore.  
Snape wouldn't yelp but he always says what he thinks (even if nobody 
listen to him).  Hand-shake is certainly out of question if he really 
believes a.

or just (b) Sirius Black is an Animagus?!  It could, of 
> course, mean both.
Not b because Snape does know that Sirius Black is an Animagus -- he 
was in the Shrieking Shack when Lupin described how the Marauder's 
all become Animagus.  However, Snape doesn't know what animal Sirius 
become.  So he could still be startled.

Or he could have be startled for a different reason -- Sirius has the 
nerve to be sitting right in front of the Minister of Magic.  Hence, 
the 'What is he doing here?' remark.
 
> BTW, I wonder what Snape thinks of the interaction between Sirius 
and 
> Harry?  It's clear that somehow in the past year, they've come to 
know 
> and care for each other.  His mind must be blown. 

I don't think he cares all that much.  Disdain, perhaps but not 'mind-
blowing'.  It will be fun to see Sirius and Snape trying to work with 
each other.

Bear in mind that Snape wasn't, how should I put this ... mentally 
stable during the last few chapters of PoA.  He's acting, for 
unexplained reason, quite OOC.  Harry hasn't heard Snape shouted for 
the last three books and all of a sudden, he is yelling like a 
maniac.  I do think once he calmed down a bit (say during the 
summer), Dumbledore may be able to convince him of Sirius's innocence.




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 09:57:56 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:57:56 -0000
Subject: Lily's friend - Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <3ABE528E.8A196167@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99n3r4+5c6d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15187

The curious thing is why didn't the teenage Snape let it slip that 
Lupin is a werewolf (or even just dropping hints like 'I wonder where 
Lupin is today -- isn't it full moon yesterday?' or 'What is it with 
Lupin?  He seems to be sick once every month.'  Well, may be he did 
indeed but everyone else is too dumb to pick it up.)  Lupin is 
definitely a goner if Snape ever told anyone.  There's nothing 
Dumbledore can do about it if the teenage Snape didn't keep his 
word.  Just as there's nothing Dumbledore can do when the Potions 
Master decide to let all Slytherins know.
My theory, totally unsupported by the canon, is that the teenage 
Snape has some dark secrets of his own and Dumbledore has implicitly 
blackmailed him into silence.

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> zora_djevojka at y... wrote:
> 
> > Not really an answer to Catlady's question, but why didn't teenage
> > Snape push to get Sirius expelled. He could have, he certainly
> > believed that Sirius attempted to kill him through that "prank".
> 
> How do we know that he didn't? Sirius himself makes the comment
> someplace that Snape was always following them around, trying to get
> them expelled. I'm betting that Snape *did* try to get Sirius 
expelled,
> on this and probably other occasions, but that Sirius had managed 
to let
> the info about the tunnel "slip" or be overheard or something other
> than, "Hey, Sev, ol' buddy ol' pal, here's where we go." Only the 
latter
> would indicate intent, and only clear intent would be enough to 
expel (I
> think).
> 
> Kind of adds a dimension to Snape's "whoops" slip of the tongue 
about
> Lupin being a werewolf. Doing the same to Lupin as Lupin's friend 
did to
> him. ["Oh, terribly sorry, did I *say* that? My mistake...." but 
damage
> done.]
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Mon Mar 26 10:43:41 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (monika at darwin.inka.de)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:43:41 -0000
Subject: Lily's friend - Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <99n3r4+5c6d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99n6gt+7lbr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15188

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote:

> The curious thing is why didn't the teenage Snape let it slip that 
> Lupin is a werewolf (or even just dropping hints like 'I wonder 
where 
> Lupin is today -- isn't it full moon yesterday?' or 'What is it 
with 
> Lupin?  He seems to be sick once every month.'  Well, may be he did 
> indeed but everyone else is too dumb to pick it up.)  Lupin is 
> definitely a goner if Snape ever told anyone.  There's nothing 
> Dumbledore can do about it if the teenage Snape didn't keep his 
> word.  Just as there's nothing Dumbledore can do when the Potions 
> Master decide to let all Slytherins know.
> My theory, totally unsupported by the canon, is that the teenage 
> Snape has some dark secrets of his own and Dumbledore has 
implicitly 
> blackmailed him into silence.

Well, I don't think that Dumbledore has blackmailed him into silence,
but let's face it: Snape isn't the innocent boy who was lurred into
the tunnel by evil Sirius Black. He had to go there all by himself, 
and that's why Dumbledore simply had put part of the blame on him, 
too. Maybe he was even punished like Sirius supposedly was, and I am 
sure that Dumbledore required silence about Remus being a werewolf
from everybody who was involved, including Snape. Why? He had let
Remus into the school because he wanted to offer him the opportunity
to go to school, finish his education and enable him to get a job
later. If he asked James, Sirius and Snape to keep the secret about
Remus, it wasn't blackmail at all IMHO. Maybe Snape actually *had*
some dirty little secrets, but I think it didn't matter at all and
wouldn't have changed anything to Dumbledore's decision.

Monika






From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 11:15:31 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 03:15:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Picking a Valentine nit (was Ginny/Girl Harry, yada, yada)
In-Reply-To: <3ABEAFA0.F6ABA0F8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20010326111531.14622.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15189


>> Probably straight Ginny wouldn't have sent a singing Valentine to
>> girl-Harry is all.
> 
> *ahem* There are those of us out here who still don't think Ginny
> sent the Valentine. I think Lockhart arranged for all of them, down

> to who got them and the smarmy poetry. I think she ran in tears 
> because she was under tremendous stress and she *does* hero-worship

> Harry and now he's going to think *she* sent it and hate her! 

She sent it.  It would be a major loose thread in the book for JKR
not to clear up if Lockhart did it.  Ginny could have told Ron that
she didn't send it and Ron would have told Harry and they would have
had a fresh reason to dislike Lockhart and bug Hermione about her
crush on the guy.

Ginny was just the right age to think the gold-winged trolls really
were romantic and cute.


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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 11:29:12 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 03:29:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance (Children v Adult Lit)
In-Reply-To: <3ABEBAB5.B07D7BEF@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20010326112912.24453.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15190

> But, you did say that it's perhaps asking too much of a children's
> author like JKR to think about issues such as strong female
> characters
> since she's writing books for children.  That's my main objection
> to
> your post in any case -- I don't think these books can or should be
> classified as exclusively children's literature

I said it was asking too much of ANY AUTHOR to have to create a
socially perfect setting for their books.

Children's literature is not some fictional ghetto that adults cannot
enter.  Think of the British children's books that adults can read
and still derive pleasure from: Alice in Wonderland/Through the
Looking Glass (I put this in because it's a friend's favourite; I
can't stand Lewis Carroll), THe Wind in the Willows, The Borrowers,
Peter Pan.  IN the US, there's Mark Twain and Jack London's shorter
novels.

All these books can be read for pleasure by both adults and children
but children will derive something special from the almost
parable-like descriptions of the characters and their activities. 
Children can identify with Harry and his friends because so many of
their experiences are the same they face: what if I go to school and
no one wants to be my friend?;  the people I live with aren't REALLY
my parents - I'm really special; that boy/girl looks different than
me and everyone picks on them and that's not nice; that teacher
doesn't like kids.

Children's literature is not just for kids.  Maybe we think it is
because so few books we read to our kids stand out in any way.

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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 11:42:54 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 03:42:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 36 Summary
In-Reply-To: <99mjdb+n8fp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010326114254.35319.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15191

>7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part of the
>"old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the
>cats who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive 
>and had baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her 
>likely role in living in such close proximity to Harry all those 
>years?

She kept an eye on him and reported to Dumbledore that he was
growing, looked healthy, etc.  

I believe in PoA, she reappears as Crookshanks.

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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 11:55:26 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 03:55:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010326101052.00a0fec0@rudjer.irb.hr>
Message-ID: <20010326115526.25475.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15192

>> I'm betting that Snape *did* try to get Sirius expelled,
> >on this and probably other occasions, but that Sirius had managed
> to let the info about the tunnel "slip" or be overheard or
something
> other than, "Hey, Sev, ol' buddy ol' pal, here's where we go." Only

> the latter >would indicate intent, and only clear intent would be 
> enough to expel (I>think).

Lupin states during the big explanation scene that Sirius Black told
Snape about the tunnel and that he thought it would be "amusing" to
do so.



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From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Mar 26 12:37:02 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:37:02 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary: Figg/Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <20010326114254.35319.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99nd5e+r5tn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15193

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part of 
the
> >"old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the
> >cats who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive 
> >and had baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her 
> >likely role in living in such close proximity to Harry all those 
> >years?
> 
> She kept an eye on him and reported to Dumbledore that he was
> growing, looked healthy, etc.  
> 
> I believe in PoA, she reappears as Crookshanks.
> 

That doesn't seem to fit to me.  

[Comments in brackets like this are counterpoints that occurred to me 
that support that Mrs. Figg might indeed be Crookshanks.  Trying to 
be fair, I suppose :)] 

Sirius was sent to get the "old gang".  It doesn't seem 
characteristic of Dumbledore to me to send Sirius into populated 
England (Little Whinging is at least a good drive from London as I 
recall), given that he's a wanted man. His existence is known to the 
Dursleys, given that he was on TV and Harry mentioned him expansively 
to scare the Dursleys into behaving more decently toward him.  If 
Sirius was spotted in populous areas, he could be caught. If he was 
caught, Dumbledore's crew would have one less person on their side, 
and Dumbledore would have to send someone else to pick up where 
Sirius left off.

[I suppose Sirius could risk Apparating in and out of Arabella Figg's 
house. Do we know if he can?]

If she were Crookshanks, though, none of this would be necessary, as 
she'd already be on the school grounds, and would already be aware of 
what was going on. 

Hermione's a bright girl, as we all know. She had the perspicacity to 
figure out Rita Skeeter. I believe she would have figured out if 
Crookshanks was an animagus. 

[On the other hand, if Crookshanks is the animagus Figg, that could 
be partly how  Dumbledore seems always to be on top of what's going 
on with Harry and company.]

Plus, as I recall, the person who sold Crookshanks to Hermione said 
he'd had a hard time selling him  (I am pretty sure Crookshanks is 
described as male.  Do animagi gender-switch when they animalize?), 
and that he'd been there for a while.  Is the time Crookshanks was 
supposedly unsellable in the petshop  jibe with or overlap with Mrs. 
Figg's times at home, down the street from the Dursleys?

The animagi on Dumbledore's side also do not customarily display the 
tendency to debase themselves and hide. The exception to this is 
Sirius, and only that because his name has not yet been cleared.

But Skeeter and Pettigrew both tend to hide in their animal forms to 
avoid getting caught doing something sneaky.

It doesn't fit in with the 'good' animagi's established behaviour 
patterns that Figg would be Crookshanks either, IMO.

Plus, who'd take care of Figg's cats while she was away with 
Hermione? Wouldn't Hermione notice if her cat went AWOL during June, 
July, and August (so Mrs. Figg could be in Little Whinging to babysit 
Harry for the Dursleys)?

I believe I'm sticking with the idea that Crookshanks is full or part 
kneazle, rather than Mrs. Figg. 

Indigo






From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Mar 26 12:44:59 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:44:59 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary: Priori Incantatem - Brother Wands
In-Reply-To: <014f01c0b5c1$817ad400$8714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99ndkb+1v0i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15194

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> 3. Any thoughts about what causes one of the wands in a pair of 
> dueling "brother" wands to gain dominance and force the other one 
> to start regurgitating spells through the Priori Incantatem effect?

 ***
> I think since they both have feathers from a Phoenix, and the 
> Phoenix's song was in Harry's head, it was helping him and not 
> Voldemort. And an aside ... I wonder what Dumbledore, Sirius, 
> Snape, and Lupin's wands are made of? And if this has anything to 
> do with the OoP?

More thoughts:

Harry has already showed an affinity for the Phoenix.  Dumbledore 
told him in CoS that Harry must be (I know this isn't verbatim 
phrased) very pure of heart to have summoned Fawkes.  

We know the Big V's affinity is for Snakes, even though Harry is a 
parselmouth.

Advantage: Harry.

Then there's also the fact that Harry's young, hale, heaarty, and has 
been well cared-for, vs. the fact that the Big V was only just now 
returning to his former level of power and thusly was not at full 
strength when he challenged Harry to the duel.  Voldemort was 
potentially overconfident because Harry's blood permitted him to 
safely touch Harry now.  

Advantage: Harry.  

There could also be the possiblity  that since the wands are made of 
two different woods, there are two different power-levels with regard 
to the interaction of the wood with the phoenix feather, and 
responses to its brother feather in another wand of a different wood. 

I'd like to think it's an simply indication of Harry's strong will, 
that he caused Priori Incantatem, rather than the other way around, 
but I just like to see the good guys win.

Indigo 






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Mon Mar 26 14:37:09 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 14:37:09 -0000
Subject: A Copyright Registration Thing
Message-ID: <99nk6l+9p81@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15195

The last thing I want to do is stir up all of Nancy Stouffer's little 
fantasy world of issues, but since Countingdown's Harry Potter page 
posted a link to the copyright registration form that was submitted 
for SS, I finally took a look at it, and have a few comments & a 
request.
The request first - can somebody in Washington obtain a copy of BOTH 
pages of hte copyright registration form, so we can see for ourselves 
if JKR signed the second page?

Here's why:
On Stouffer's REAL MUGGLES website, she has uploaded a scan of a 
*portion* of the copyright application for Sorcerer's Stone, which 
includes an entry that the citizenship of the claimant is in the U.S.
It also doesn't include a "author's birth year", but that's 
irrelevant to my comment.

If you go to http://www.loc.gov/copyright/forms/formtx.pdf you can 
see the copyright application form that one has to fill out to 
register a copyright in the U.S. Generally, these are filled out by 
the publishing company, in this case, likely either Levine (the 
imprint) or Scholastic (the publisher).

On the second page of the application, at number 8, you can see that 
an  application can be validly, legitimately and legally signed by a 
number of individuals, including the author herself, the copyright 
claimant or an *authorized agent*. The Agent is generally either the 
lawyer or the publishing house, if the author has given power of 
attorney to either, authorizing them to sign things on her behalf. 

Therefore, without seeing the second page of this application, it is 
IMPOSSIBLE to determine whether JKR herself ever SAW this document 
before it was filed. 

There's another provision on the application which says that the 
information is correct to the best of the signer's knowledge, and if 
the signer thinks something, but that thought is incorrect, as a 
matter of law, the copyright claimant cannot be penalized for it. 

Only the signator can be penalized - and it doesn't even invalidate 
the copyright registration - there's merely a 2500$ fine. 

It makes me wonder - if JKR signed it, why didn't Stouffer upload 
that part of the application to her site?

As an intellectual property attorney, it seems to me that if JKR 
didn't sign the document herself, it was a slipshod job by whoever 
did - to not get the right information (they obviously didn't get the 
birth year info, according to what was uploaded on the Stouffer 
site) - but it is proof of NOTHING.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 26 15:05:34 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:05:34 -0600
Subject: Picking a Valentine nit
References: <20010326111531.14622.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ABF5ABE.DD60583E@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15196

Hi --

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> She sent it.  It would be a major loose thread in the book for JKR
> not to clear up if Lockhart did it.  Ginny could have told Ron that
> she didn't send it and Ron would have told Harry and they would have
> had a fresh reason to dislike Lockhart and bug Hermione about her
> crush on the guy.

I had never heard the theory that Ginny might not have sent the
Valentine herself until this weekend's posts on the topic, but I like
it!  It makes sense to me.

I don't think the true identity of the sender qualifies as a major loose
thread.  It's not that important a detail after all.  It's important
only to reinforce the image that Ginny has this crush on Harry & he's
aware of it.  But, I definitely can't imagine Ginny even broaching the
subject with Ron.  Granted I don't have older brothers, but this would
seem way OOC for a shy kid sister to approach her next oldest brother &
tell him that she didn't send the Valentine.  She would have been so
incredibly embarassed that she'd rather die than bring up the subject
with any of her brothers.  Even if she did, I'd give 10-1 odds that Ron
wouldn't have believed her.  If she tried to talk to any of her brothers
& tell them she hadn't sent it, it would be Percy IMO.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 26 15:00:07 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:00:07 -0600
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger
References: <99mrjb+hrh2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABF5976.B235DCDF@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15197

Hi --

Amy Z wrote:

> Penny wrote:
>
> >Although the readers are limited by Harry's point-of-view in the
> >stories, it is strongly implied that Hermione has developed a
> mentoring relationship with Professor McGonagall.  She excels in all
> her
> courses, but her best subject appears to be the one taught by
> Professor
> >McGonagall: transfiguration.
>
> Can anyone point to specifics about either of these points?  A
> mentoring relationship fits, IMO, but I see only the vaguest hints of
> it; a relationship with Vector seems as likely.  And I don't see
> anything to suggest that Hermione's strongest subject is
> transfiguration.  There are a few examples of her doing particularly
> well there, but ditto for Potions, Defense (as you point out, Lupin
> calls her "the cleverest witch of your age I've ever met" [and he knew
>
> Lily!] even though she got less than full marks on her final for him),
>
> and especially Charms (viz. her 112% on the final in PS/SS and, in
> GoF, her invaluable Charms help in tasks 1 and 3, and to a lesser
> extent 2; the 3rd task stuff shows advanced DADA talent too).

The bit about the mentoring relationship evidence comes from Message
3494 (this group, not Archives), which is actually my own point.  As I
say in that message, I think the fact that McGonagall has gone to alot
of trouble to obtain the time turner for Hermione indicates that there
is some evidence that she's taken a special interest in Hermione.  She
is head of Gryffindor, and it may simply be that relationship & nothing
more special than that.  But, Hermione also appears to be on familiar
enough terms with McG to approach her on several other occasions,
notably to tell her about Harry's receipt of the Firebolt.  Maybe it's
just a gut feeling on my part .... but I feel that there is some sort of
mentoring relationship going on there.

As for Transfiguration, that point came from message #1518 (this group)
-- a message from R/H captain Kathy.  You make some good points about
her performance in other subjects; however, I don't disagree with
Kathy's point that there seem to be more references to her excelling in
Transfiguration than in other subjects.  She's obviously great at them
all .... but it seems she's in a class by herself as far as
Transfiguration goes.  There is more than one mention by McG that
Hermione can do a transfiguration that no one else has mastered.

> My favorite Hermione moment:  bringing Harry the toast.  How many
> 13/14-year-olds have one-tenth this much sensitivity?

I liked that too!  :--)

> >4. Is she a braggart?
>
> No!  Okay, you can cite moments of overenthusiasm in class, but they
> are heavily weighted toward the beginning of the series.

That's my perception too -- this over-enthusiastic streak diminishes
over time.  JKR herself said in an interview that Hermione has already
lightened up alot and will continue to do so.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 15:16:14 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:16:14 -0000
Subject: Nitpicky Snapethoughts
In-Reply-To: <99n20s+inaa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99nmfu+41pp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15198

MMM wrote:

> If Snape really believe that, his reaction in that case would be a. 
> draw out his wand and stunned Sirius or b. voice his opinion 
> about 'The nutter who wants to kill Harry' directly with Dumbledore. 
 
> Snape wouldn't yelp but he always says what he thinks (even if 
nobody 
> listen to him).  Hand-shake is certainly out of question if he 
really 
> believes a.

What I picture going through Snape's head is something like:

First: That nutter who wants to kill Harry is here in the hospital by 
his bedside.  Oh man, that whole thing again--don't tell me Dumble 
really thinks he's innocent.

Then: Okay, Dumble really thinks he's innocent.  (Deep breath.)  He 
knows what he's doing.  He knows who to trust.  He trusts me when not 
too many people would.  I trust him.

Then:  Oh God, don't make me actually shake hands with him . . . 
that's a bit much.

He does, of course, because Dumbledore tells him to.

Snape isn't one to mince words, and he doesn't hesitate to argue with 
Dumbledore when they don't see eye to eye, but except for a notable 
leak at the end of PoA, when, as you say, his nerves are just a tad 
frayed, he keeps his objections within the walls of Hogwarts and 
doesn't undermine Dumbledore's decisions (he could've let it slip 
about Lupin anytime all year, but he didn't, and he made the damn 
potion).  He is intensely loyal to AD and does what he tells him when 
it comes to the point, and this is a crisis.  In fact, the whole 
evening pointedly shows Snape doing what Dumbledore asks without 
question or comment.  If AD thinks Sirius belongs at Harry's bedside 
and on their side in the fight against V, Snape will swallow his 
doubts and accept it.

 > Snape does know that Sirius Black is an Animagus -- he 
> was in the Shrieking Shack when Lupin described how the Marauder's 
> all become Animagus.  However, Snape doesn't know what animal Sirius 
> become.  So he could still be startled.

Oh, right.  I lose track of what happens when in that interminable 
scene.  Right, he knows he's an Animagus but of course he wouldn't 
connect the dog that's sitting there with him--he doesn't even know 
there's any connection between Harry and Sirius.  I mean, he probably 
knows Sirius was Harry's godfather, but he would never dream that they 
are actually in touch with each other now, unless Dumbledore had told 
him.

> Or he could have be startled for a different reason -- Sirius has 
the 
> nerve to be sitting right in front of the Minister of Magic.  Hence, 
> the 'What is he doing here?' remark.

Now that's intriguing!  So maybe "What is he doing here?" means "Is he 
crazy, the Minister was just here and there are Dementors 
everywhere--get him somewhere safe."  Not that he can stand him, but 
that he knows they're allies.

Amy Z

---------------------------------------------------------
 "=Wow!=" said Dennis, as though nobody in their wildest 
 dreams could hope for more than being thrown into a 
 storm-tossed, fathoms-deep lake and pushed out of it 
 again by a giant sea-monster.
                           -HP and the Goblet of Fire
---------------------------------------------------------




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Mar 26 15:16:45 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:16:45 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger
In-Reply-To: <3ABEBF03.DE07C242@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99nmgt+5e65@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15199

> 
> 3. Any new thoughts on why she was sorted into Gryffindor rather 
than
> Ravenclaw?

One of the things a well-rounded education should provide is make you 
aware of and allow you to develop those aspects of your character 
which have gone hitherto unnoticed (or under-noticed) by you. I think 
that reason Hermione is in Gryffindor instead of Ravenclaw.  Hermione 
is a natural-born scholar, and she will always study relentlesly no 
matter where she is placed ? be it Ravenclaw, Slytherin, Harvard 
Medical School, Podunk County Community College, etc.  In other 
words, what could Ravenclaw offer her that she does not already have?

As Penny points out in her admirable essay, Hermione has displayed a 
considerable degree of growth during her first four years at 
Hogwarts, in terms of her moral character, social maturity, and even 
in her attitude toward authority (which she is now willing to 
question, although she usually respects it).  Could she have achieved 
such growth outside of Gryffindor? Certainly, her friendship with 
Harry has led her to a many a "real-life" application of what might 
otherwise be mere classroom exercises. 

Hermione needed to go to Gryffindor because she needed to learn to be 
courageous. Or more properly speaking, her inner courage was latent 
and under-utlilized within her, and she needed to be in Gryffindor 
for her to become aware of this aspect of herself and develop it. 
Being sorted to Ravenclaw would probably have only augmented 
Hermione's bookish, introverted, and arrogant tendencies. Similarly, 
a student of high intelligence but rather lazy habits might be best 
sorted to Ravenclaw, in that the peer pressure would encourage his 
intellectual growth.

     - CMC





From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 26 15:26:43 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:26:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Copyright Registration Thing
References: <99nk6l+9p81@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABF5FB3.334D42F4@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15200

Hi --

heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu wrote:

> The request first - can somebody in Washington obtain a copy of BOTH
> pages of hte copyright registration form, so we can see for ourselves
> if JKR signed the second page?
>
> On the second page of the application, at number 8, you can see that
> an  application can be validly, legitimately and legally signed by a
> number of individuals, including the author herself, the copyright
> claimant or an *authorized agent*. The Agent is generally either the
> lawyer or the publishing house, if the author has given power of
> attorney to either, authorizing them to sign things on her behalf.

Heidi probably is guessing what I'm guessing: the copyright application
could have been filled out by a legal assistant & signed by a lawyer for
the publisher.  It would be completely within normal bounds for this
sort of task to be delegated to a legal assistant, who just didn't know
enough about JKR at the time to know that she *wasn't* a US citizen.
Maybe it was an assumption on the part of the paralegal or maybe he/she
flagged that section for the lawyer, asking for verification, & the
lawyer was busy & didn't notice.

I would bet that the application was signed by someone on behalf of JKR,
but it will be interesting to see if that's true or not.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 26 15:19:36 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:19:36 -0600
Subject: Gender balance (Children v Adult Lit)
References: <20010326112912.24453.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ABF5E08.1C2C7878@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15201

Hi --

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> I said it was asking too much of ANY AUTHOR to have to create a
> socially perfect setting for their books.
>
> Children's literature is not some fictional ghetto that adults cannot
> enter.

Believe me -- I'm the last person to think of childrens' lit as a
"ghetto" (I'm writing a biography of childrens' author Laura Ingalls
Wilder after all!).  But, JKR herself has said she did not intend to
write childrens' books.  She didn't think that's what she was writing
(granted she also didn't realize she was writing in the fantasy genre
until nearly done with PS).  Children were not her intended audience.

> Children can identify with Harry and his friends because so many of
> their experiences are the same they face: what if I go to school and
> no one wants to be my friend?;  the people I live with aren't REALLY
> my parents - I'm really special; that boy/girl looks different than
> me and everyone picks on them and that's not nice; that teacher
> doesn't like kids.
>
But, the books are becoming more & more adult in tone.  She's said that
she doesn't intend to keep the Trio & their peers mired in
pre-pubescence forever, and I believe her.  GoF is *not* a childrens'
book in my mind.  There are lots of plot points that will strike a chord
with "teenage" readers in GoF, but the 3 main characters have moved
firmly into adolescence.  They aren't children any longer.  In Book 7,
the Trio will be 17/18 yrs old.  My guess is that they'll be behaving as
though they are 17/18 (*adults* for all intents & purposes).  How could
that possibly be classified as a childrens' book?  Where do you draw the
line?  Are Books 1-3 "childrens' books" but GoF and the subsequent ones
aren't?

The other thing that sets these apart from other childrens' literature
is the large adult audience.  Sure, many adults enjoy certain childrens'
books.  But, the numbers here are staggering.  Heidi just posted
something a few weeks ago that indicates that a majority of the HP books
sold in 2000 were sold to and for readers over the age of 14.  I just
don't believe that all of this evidence warrants a narrow classification
of the books as children's literature.  They really defy classification
in my mind.  But, don't even get me started on the NY Times .....<g>

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 15:42:08 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:42:08 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger
In-Reply-To: <99nmgt+5e65@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99no0g+trii@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15202

> > 3. Any new thoughts on why she was sorted into Gryffindor rather 
> than
> > Ravenclaw?

Caius Marcius wrote:
 
> One of the things a well-rounded education should provide is make 
you 
> aware of and allow you to develop those aspects of your character 
> which have gone hitherto unnoticed (or under-noticed) by you. 

<post full of excellent points snipped>

Yes, yes!  Hmmm..."me too" posts aren't kosher.  So I will take this 
opportunity to add that I have loved every single filk you've posted 
and only refrained from saying so 'cause I don't want the Mod Squad to 
come after me.

In general, I think the Sorting encourages readers to look for aspects 
of the characters that we don't see at first glance.  It would be very 
boring if JKR had filled Gryffindor with a bunch of junior heroes.  
The G. kids are the usual mix of brave and not-so-brave, talented and 
not-so-talented, hardworking and not, etc. etc.  But each of them 
harbors some kind of tremendous courage or potential for it, and we 
have to look for it, knowing that it's there if the Sorting Hat says 
so.

Hermione is not only very brave when it comes to physical danger, but 
she has great integrity, which is another form of courage.  Sticking 
by Neville, spelling out for Harry what Ron's problem is in GoF, 
making herself unpopular with her activism--these all require a kind 
of bravery as well, a kind that the books clearly want us to hold in 
high regard.  (Dumbledore makes Neville, not Harry, the house hero in 
PS/SS by letting his points be the ones that put Gryffindor over the 
top, and Neville's accomplishment was integrity and the courage of his 
convictions.)

There, that wasn't a "me too."

Amy Z

----------------------------------------------
 However, it is easy to repulse the Pogrebin 
 with simple hexes or Stupefying Charms.  
 Kicking has also been found effective.
     -Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them
----------------------------------------------




From signe_weasley at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 15:56:08 2001
From: signe_weasley at hotmail.com (Signe Weasley)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:56:08 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Figg/Crookshanks
Message-ID: <F87nm1u2mQPoHEpxSfr000051ea@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15203

Indigo wrote:

>Plus, who'd take care of Figg's cats while she was away with
>Hermione? Wouldn't Hermione notice if her cat went AWOL during June,
>July, and August (so Mrs. Figg could be in Little Whinging to babysit
>Harry for the Dursleys)?
>
>I believe I'm sticking with the idea that Crookshanks is full or part
>kneazle, rather than Mrs. Figg.



I don't know if anyone has said this yet... but I always imagined that those 
cats weren't really cats, rather animagi that came to keep a watch on 
Harry... or maybe witch paparazzi.  Afterall we know that Rita Skeeter 
transforms herself into a beetle for her journalism career.  I thought Mrs. 
Figg might have been a minion of Dumbledore... like an undercover witch to 
keep the "extra eye" on Harry while he was growing up.

Signe Weasley
You can never have too many Weasley's.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From margdean at erols.com  Mon Mar 26 16:50:25 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:50:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 36 Summary - Dementors
References: <3ABEBBE5.4EADA3B6@swbell.net> <014f01c0b5c1$817ad400$8714a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3ABF7351.10E5A4E3@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15204

Doreen wrote:

> I guess what I don't understand is ... if the Dementors are Voldemort's
> great allies, why would they be so anxious to deliver the Kiss to Crouch
> Jr., knowing that he is one of Voldemort's strongest supporters, even to the
> end?

I've never had the impression that the Dementors were that smart
-- or perhaps I should say "reflective."  They do what they're
ordered to do and otherwise act mostly on instinct.  Given their
way, they'd presumably devour the souls of everybody around them,
but they are under some kind of control (rather like house elves,
perhaps!) and normally can't unless given permission.  Once Fudge
gives "his" Dementor the go-ahead, therefore, it doesn't =care=
who Barty Jr. is (if it even knows).  He's now lawful prey and
his soul fair game.  Yum, lunch!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From rina at love-productions.com  Mon Mar 26 17:06:27 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:06:27 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny
Message-ID: <027601c0b617$22386c40$120f9fac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15205

Penny wrote:

<<Granted I don't have older brothers, but this would
seem way OOC for a shy kid sister to approach her next oldest brother &
tell him that she didn't send the Valentine.  >>

While I do agree that she probably wouldn't be likely to approach her brothers about the Valentine, I'm not so sure that Ginny is a completely shy kid. According to Ron in book two, he is mystified that she's suddenly so quiet whenever Harry's around, because she's usually a chatterbox. This goes back to seeing the books mostly from Harry's POV - if she's always quiet when he's around, we're going to always see her as quiet, as opposed to how she is when around other people, which may be quite different. 

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 17:11:53 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:11:53 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger
In-Reply-To: <3ABEBF03.DE07C242@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99nt8p+rhth@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15206

It's official:  I now have FAQ writers' block.  Penny's character 
sketch was just... well... so *comprehensive*.  I can't believe that 
it's condensed at all!

Hermione's my favorite character of the moment (it rotates 
between three), and I've been heavily concentrating on reading 
and writing her fanon selves, so this was very timely for me.

Most of the below is re-hash... but here goes...

> ==========================================
> 
> QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
> 
> 1. Is she still the same bossy know-it-all that she was in PS/SS 
or has she "lightened up" quite a bit already?

Oh, I feel that plenty of lightening has taken place since PS/SS.  
All of the characters have changed since then.  Upon first read of 
GoF, I was disappointed that she hadn't become as laid-back as 
I thought she could have been, but since then I've found several 
instances where she shows that she's not as anxious anymore.  
The way she handled Draco ("twitchy little ferret, aren't you?").  
The fact that she's able to enjoy herself with Krum at the Yule 
Ball.  Her awe of authority figures also seemed to be a bit 
tempered now... which is perhaps a Good Thing, as I'd be willing 
to wager that absolutes may blur in the books to come.
 
> 2. Does she just study hard, either to make up for her average
> intelligence or out of insecurity, or does she instead possess
> above-average intelligence?  Both?

Both.  She has above-average intelligence.  Gifted children, 
when challenged, are naturally investigative, intuitive, and 
inquisitive.  The excessive studying, however, is a mystery.  Most 
gifted kids I know or teach don't have that compulsion to study 
just for the sake of studying.  As a matter of fact, homework 
assignments that seem pointless to the gifted child will often not 
be done... trust me on that one.  :-)

I have the sneaking suspicion that some of Hermione's 
obsession with academic success comes from home.  We don't 
know much about the Grangers... they could be the scary kind of 
parents who tell their child that they are less than worthy if they 
bring home less than full marks (straight As here in the US).  

Also, Hermione, like most kids who are in awe of authority 
figures, aim to please them.  I have kids like that here... they 
hang on my every word and that of my colleagues, and do 
absolutely everything we ask just to earn our praise... the kind of 
kids who will be devastated when we look at them with 
disappointment.  Teacher's pets, maybe... but there you have it.

> 3. Any new thoughts on why she was sorted into Gryffindor 
rather than Ravenclaw?

SHIP Alert... ah, never mind.  I won't even go there today.  :-)

I agree with Caius 100%.

> 4. Is she a braggart?

In the beginning, yes.  At this point, no. 

> 5. Is Hermione male-identified?  Does she derive her 
self-worth from her male friends and successes within a 
male-centered environment?  Or, as some members have 
noted, is it instead possible that the readers don't know about 
Hermione's relationships with other women as a result of the
limitations of Harry's point-of-view?

I don't think she's male-identified at all!  She doesn't derive her 
identity from being Ron or Harry's friend... she would have 
excelled at Hogwarts without them... and the celebrity would have 
still asked her to the dance.  

Let's be honest here.  Who would *you* rather hang out with, 
ladies?  Ron and Harry, or Lavender and Parvati?  Is there even 
a real choice there?

I suspect that Lavender, Parvati, and any other girls in their year 
didn't mesh well with Hermione.  She was on her own for two 
months before she made friends with Harry and Ron.  She 
shares a dorm room with the girls.  I speculate that she quickly 
found that she had very little in common with them.

I also think she has a mentoring friendship with McGonagall, 
and could be forming a friendship with Ginny or others behind 
the scenes.

6. What might her future hold?  What sort of career might she 
choose (assuming she's alive at the end of the series)?  If she 
had children, is it possible she might choose to stay home with 
children (part-time or full-time)?

Whatever career she holds, I think it will involve two things.  The 
first is challenging her intellect.  If she truly is gifted, then she 
needs something that will stretch her.  Gifted folks are weird 
(come on, Mensa list members, how many times have YOU 
been called eccentric?) in that we pursue a project with all our 
might and energy, then move on to the next challenge... the next 
mystery.

She also seems to  empathize with others... she's become very 
good in recent canon at putting herself in the shoes of others 
(Hermione critics, please spare me the Crookshanksgate 
refutation.)  I think she wouldn't be satisfied with books alone.

It's far too early to tell about kids.

> 7. Members have debated whether she merely bears a strong 
resemblance to Rowling or if she is indeed Rowling's 
"surrogate" in the series.  Is she the "heroine" to Harry's "hero" or 
just a strong female character who bears a startling likeness to 
Rowling?

In recent canon, she's become the heroine.  I would say that for 
most of canon (PS/SS, CoS, and PoA) she was the other 
sidekick, who just happened to be a girl. 

At the risk of Susan McGee's wrath raining down on my head 
(remember this summer's "all girl" faux pas?  ack!), I'll say that 
her feminine attributes seem to be surfacing more, 
differentiating her from the boys significantly.  I'm sorry, but it's 
there... and as they mature, I think that this contrast will be even 
more apparent.

> 8. Will she make it to the end of the series alive?

Who knows?  I'd be willing to wager that she does.
 
> 9. Do you like or dislike Hermione?  Do you identify with her 
character?

Was annoyed by her in PS/SS until the end.  Liked her in CoS.  
Loved her in PoA, and loved her to pieces in GoF.  

I identified with her, but not as strongly as I did once I read the 
Time-Turner subplot in GoF.  This is the part of canon that leads 
me to wonder if Hermione *would* stay at home with kids... that  
part of her that thinks she can do it all would have to change.  Not 
saying that she wouldn't... but she would truly have to.  

Again, nice summary, Penny!

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Mar 26 17:12:18 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:12:18 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010326114254.35319.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99nt9i+h78e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15207

I don't think that Arabella Figg can be Crookshanks.  At the end of 
GoF Dumbledore tells Sirius that he is to "alert Remus Lupin, 
Arabella figg, Mundungus Fletcher - the old crowd."  Crookshanks, at 
this time, is still at Hogwarts with Hermione, so Dumbledore would 
hardly give this instruction knowing this, would he?   Unless he 
doesn't know about it, and she isn't on the Animagi register. I'm not 
convinced.  Also, Hermione chose Crookshanks in the pet shop, and the 
owner had been trying to get rid of her for ages, so it just doesn't 
fit.  (Also, isn't Crookshanks male???).

By the way, has everyone noticed the way Mundungus Fletcher keeps 
cropping up?  He sounds eccentric - he has already tried to hex 
Arthur Weasley for confiscating his shrinking keys, or something 
similar, and he also tried to put in a false claim for his tent when 
it was damaged during the Quidditch World Cup.  Rather dubious 
credentials for someone in whom Dumbledore puts his trust. (If this 
has already been discussed I apologise.  There are just too many 
mails, not enough time...)

Catherine 
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part of 
the
> >"old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the
> >cats who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive 
> >and had baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her 
> >likely role in living in such close proximity to Harry all those 
> >years?
> 
> She kept an eye on him and reported to Dumbledore that he was
> growing, looked healthy, etc.  
> 
> I believe in PoA, she reappears as Crookshanks.
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Mar 26 17:14:11 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:14:11 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary
In-Reply-To: <20010326114254.35319.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99ntd3+o1k3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15208

Also forgot to mention - did someone think that "Mrs Figg" could be 
Harry's secret keeper?  It could be one of the protections that 
Dumbledore has on Privet Drive.  And why is she so unpleasant to 
Harry?
Catherine

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> >7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part of 
the
> >"old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the
> >cats who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive 
> >and had baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her 
> >likely role in living in such close proximity to Harry all those 
> >years?
> 
> She kept an eye on him and reported to Dumbledore that he was
> growing, looked healthy, etc.  
> 
> I believe in PoA, she reappears as Crookshanks.
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From margdean at erols.com  Mon Mar 26 17:37:42 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:37:42 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 36 Summary
References: <99ntd3+o1k3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABF7E66.42387200@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15209

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 
> Also forgot to mention - did someone think that "Mrs Figg" could be
> Harry's secret keeper?  It could be one of the protections that
> Dumbledore has on Privet Drive.  And why is she so unpleasant to
> Harry?

I doubt she means to be.  Put yourself in her place; what do you
talk about to this boy when you're under STRICT ORDERS not to
breathe a WORD about his parents, his magic, the wizarding world
in general, your own history as a witch . . .

About all that's left to do is haul out the pictures of your
cats!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Mar 26 17:26:02 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:26:02 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary
In-Reply-To: <3ABF7E66.42387200@erols.com>
Message-ID: <99nu3a+273q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15210



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Margaret Dean <margdean at e...> wrote:
> catherine at c... wrote:
> > 
> > Also forgot to mention - did someone think that "Mrs Figg" could 
be
> > Harry's secret keeper?  It could be one of the protections that
> > Dumbledore has on Privet Drive.  And why is she so unpleasant to
> > Harry?
> 
> I doubt she means to be.  Put yourself in her place; what do you
> talk about to this boy when you're under STRICT ORDERS not to
> breathe a WORD about his parents, his magic, the wizarding world
> in general, your own history as a witch . . .
> 
> About all that's left to do is haul out the pictures of your
> cats!

There's always the weather I suppose!  I take your point. C
> 
> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   <margdean at e...>




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Mar 26 17:26:02 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:26:02 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <3ABA129E.D48637D1@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99nu3a+85tm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15211

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> joym999 at a... wrote:
> 
> > I just wanted to say, although the moderators will probably yell 
at
> > me, that I think Susans analysis is right on-target.
> 
> Ahem.  *Why* would the Moderators yell at you for this?

Well, I have to admit that my original post did not do much more than 
say that I agree with Susan.  I thought the Mod Squad would yell at 
me for taking up space with doing nothing more than agreeing with 
someone else.

However, I posted my agreement originally because I feel this is an 
important issue, and there is a reason why it is frequently re-
occurring.  I think that there is a fascinating and important 
political issue here: The HP books are IMHO fairly male-dominated; is 
this just a reflection of the way the world works or is this teaching 
children that a male-dominated world is OK?  To what extent is an 
author (or anyone else for that matter) responsible for the way other 
people may interpret her/his work?

It seems to me that in the sci-fi fantasy realm there are some 
extremes -- on the one hand, the politically-correct, somewhat silly 
IMHO Star Trek-type universe, where every race/gender/etc. is 
carefully represented in the bridge crew of the Enterprise, and on 
the other hand, the male-oriented, violent, Tom Clancy in Space 
school of sci-fi.  Which is more offensive?  Which is a worse model 
for children?

THis issue carries over into other art forms -- To what degree are 
Eminems songs just a reflection (or parody) of the attitudes and 
ideas that people commonly have, and to what degree are his songs 
just disgusting, bigoted, offensive and stupid blather with no 
redeeming social value (not that I am biased or anything).  And 
should you deal with offensive material by ignoring it, embracing it, 
or outlawing it?

OK, now I am getting somewhat OT, but I find these moral issues 
fascinating.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*





From wings909 at aol.com  Mon Mar 26 17:38:10 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:38:10 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny
Message-ID: <df.124ba007.27f0d882@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15212

In a message dated 03/26/2001 12:22:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rina at love-productions.com writes:


> I'm not so sure that Ginny is a completely shy kid. According to Ron in book 
> two, he is mystified that she's suddenly so quiet whenever Harry's around, 
> because she's usually a chatterbox. This goes back to seeing the books 
> mostly from Harry's POV - if she's always quiet when he's around, we're 
> going to always see her as quiet, as opposed to how she is when around 
> other people, which may be quite different. 
> 
> 

Coming from my own experience, the youngest of three, I can say quite easily 
that Ginny might very well be shy around other people--meaning those who 
aren't related to her.  LOL, I know that I've often been told I never shut up 
by my family, but when I get around others, I really turn shy.

Cheers,
Paula


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bafoster at mindspring.com  Mon Mar 26 17:38:50 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:38:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Mrs. Figg
References: <99ntd3+o1k3@eGroups.com> <3ABF7E66.42387200@erols.com>
Message-ID: <3ABF7EAB.C7369DE@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15213



Margaret Dean wrote:
> 
> catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > Also forgot to mention - did someone think that "Mrs Figg" could be
> > Harry's secret keeper?  It could be one of the protections that
> > Dumbledore has on Privet Drive.  And why is she so unpleasant to
> > Harry?
> 
> I doubt she means to be.  Put yourself in her place; what do you
> talk about to this boy when you're under STRICT ORDERS not to
> breathe a WORD about his parents, his magic, the wizarding world
> in general, your own history as a witch . . .
> 
> About all that's left to do is haul out the pictures of your
> cats!
> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   <margdean at erols.com>

Well, and also, I'm sure that if she was nice to Harry, to the point
where he actually *liked* going over there, the Dursleys would find some
way to stop him from seeing her.

An interesting point:  I wonder if they have any idea who she really is?

Barbara :)

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From bafoster at mindspring.com  Mon Mar 26 17:50:03 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:50:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 36 Summary
References: <3ABEBBE5.4EADA3B6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3ABF814B.E7ABB5BA@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15214



Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
> 
> Chapter 36 Summary
> 
> The Parting of the Ways

This was an *excellent* summary, Penny!  reading all of the chapter
summaries is making me want to reread the book myself, I must admit...

> QUESTIONS:
> 
> 2. Now: that pesky "gleam of triumph" in Dumbledore's eyes.  We've
> discussed it & hashed it to death before, but does anyone have any new
> thoughts about this?

Well, I don't know that this is a new thought, but I really do think
Dumbledore sees that because Voldemort used Harry's blood, there is a
"chink in his armour", so to speak.  Dumbledore probably sees something
he could potentially use against V.

> 
> 3. Any thoughts about what causes one of the wands in a pair of
> dueling
> "brother" wands to gain dominance and force the other one to start
> regurgitating spells through the Priori Incantatem effect?

I have *been* wondering about this...I hadn't come up with anything, but
the thoughts other people have expressed are very interesting!  I hope
JKR will explore this a bit more in one of the other books, but I'm not
sure she will.

> 
> 4. Do your perceptions of Sirius Black change after reading this
> chapter?  Some have commented that his explosive temper and desire for
> vengeance in PoA put them off his character a bit.  Did GoF (and this
> chapter in particular) do anything to change your feelings about or
> perceptions of Sirius?
> 

I have liked Sirius since the end of PoA, when we find out that he's
really a "good guy", but this chapter just cemented that feeling for me.

> 5. We've discussed Cornelius Fudge a fair bit in the past.  Any new
> thoughts?  Is he a head-in-the-sand Neville Chamberlain type or is his
> refusal to act based on more sinister intentions?

I think he's in denial.  I don't think he's in league with V., or has
any malicious intentions, I just think he wants it all to go away and
thinks that if he ignores it, it will.

> 
> 6. Do we assume Dumbledore could have intended anything else other
> than
> for Hagrid and Madame Maxime to serve as envoys to the giants?

That was certainly what I made of it.

> 
> 7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part of the
> "old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the cats
> who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive and had
> baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her likely role
> in
> living in such close proximity to Harry all those years?

Someone made an interesting point about her being Harry's
secret-keeper...that's possible, and I think also she's a "safe" person
to have around so that the wizarding world can keep an eye on Harry.

> 
> 8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?

I haven't ever been exactly clear on what he intends Snape to do.  I
assume he wants Snape to return and infiltrate the Death Eaters, but I'm
not sure how he's supposed to manage that, since V. already knows
(presumed from his listing of the DEs that aren't in attendance) Snape
is no longer faithful to him.

> 
> 9. Was anyone else irritated at Hermione for interrupting the
> emotional
> moment between Harry and Molly Weasley when they first read this
> chapter?  We, of course, later understand what she was doing, but what
> was your reaction when you first read this chapter?
> 

I thought it was a totally incongruous thing to stick in there, and then
when I read the part later about Hermione capturing Rita, I went
"OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH!" :)

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From rina at love-productions.com  Mon Mar 26 17:50:23 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:50:23 -0000
Subject: Ginny
In-Reply-To: <df.124ba007.27f0d882@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99nvgv+jgue@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15215

Paula wrote:

<<Coming from my own experience, the youngest of three, I can say 
quite easily 
that Ginny might very well be shy around other people--meaning those 
who 
aren't related to her.  LOL, I know that I've often been told I never 
shut up 
by my family, but when I get around others, I really turn shy.>>

As the oldest of two, I'm the exact same way. <g> Except, of course, 
for those people I've known for a long time and feel comfortable 
with. (My roommate was rather surprised at how I acted with my best 
friend of 16 years this past weekend - she never saw me like that 
before.) But that doesn't mean that Ginny is the same way. She could 
just be shy around Harry because of her crush, and not so much around 
others.

Rina

(This may come through twice, sorry! I'm having server problems. 
Grrrr.)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Mar 26 17:56:47 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:56:47 -0000
Subject: Nitpicky Snapethoughts - Snape's hysteria in PoA
In-Reply-To: <99n20s+inaa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99nvsv+ris7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15216

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote:
er.
> 
> Bear in mind that Snape wasn't, how should I put this ... mentally 
> stable during the last few chapters of PoA.  He's acting, for 
> unexplained reason, quite OOC. 

	I have a theory about Snape's behavior... he says,to Harry, "You'd 
have been well served if [Sirius had] killed you! You'd have died like 
your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black..."

	Suppose what happened was this: sometime before the murder of 
James and Lily, Snape began to suspect that Sirius was the double 
agent. Snape couldn't prove it, but secretly warned James. Snape has 
thought all this time that James ignored his warnings and chose Sirius 
anyway and Snape is referring to this in the quote above. 
	The idea that  James did in fact change secret-keepers provoked a 
hysterical rejection from Snape because if Snape did accept it, he 
would have to believe that he himself was responsible for James' and 
Lily's deaths. 
	Later, Snape might have learned from Dumbledore that Sirius 
independently suggested changing secret-keepers, which would have made 
it easier for Snape to accept the truth. 

Pippin





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 18:32:25 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:32:25 -0000
Subject: Picking a Valentine nit (was Ginny/Girl Harry, yada, yada)
In-Reply-To: <f3.89c02b1.27f00db0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99o1vp+nbaa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15217

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morine10 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/25/01 9:57:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
editor at t... 
> writes:
> 
> 
> > *ahem* There are those of us out here who still don't think Ginny 
sent
> > the Valentine. I think Lockhart arranged for all of them, down to 
who
> > got them and the smarmy poetry. I think she ran in tears because 
she was
> > under tremendous stress and she *does* hero-worship Harry and now 
he's
> > going to think *she* sent it and hate her! Plus, it was in front 
of all
> > those other people who'll think she sent it, too! Heck, *I'd* run 
out of
> > the room in those circumstances.
> > 
> 
> I'm with you Amanda.  I never thought that Ginny sent that 
valentine.  The 
> valentines are from Lockhart to the students -not from other 
students.  "My 
> friendly card-carrying cupids!"  beamed Lockhart.  "They will be 
delivering 
> your valentines!"  To me this says that the valentines are from him.  
Nowhere 
> does it say you can arrange to have a signing valentine sent to 
another 
> student.  I agree that Ginny is just stressed.  Besides, I refuse to 
believe 
> that she would even think of sending something like that to Harry. 
:) That 
> poem had Lockhart's cheesiness written all over it. 
> 
> ~Mo

Oh!  I hadn't even considered that it wasn't from Ginny!  It would 
make sense, I guess, that Lockhart was sending them to everyone as 
sort of a goofy Valentine's Day lark.

I guess I was thinking about it in terms of my own school experiences, 
where in grade school we made little shoebox mailboxes and everyone 
brought valentines for the other kids, and in highschool they sold 
lolipop messages - you'd write a little message, and the Boy's Pep 
Club would attach it to a lolipop and deliver it it's intended 
recipient during a certain class period.

Still pondering...  now I've got some questions.  Wouldn't Harry  be 
less mortified if all sorts of kids were being accosted by these 
cupids?  And why would Lockhart say 'He's really devine I wish he were 
mine...'?  Is there a H/L ship I don't know about?  And... if Lockhart 
didn't mean students could send them to each other, then why would 
Ginny be embarrassed?  If everyone knew that they were not from other 
students but only silly concoctions of Lockharts, then Draco's 
statement doesn't make any sense, and neither does Ginny's reaction.

kimberly
who's going to have to look back at that bit now and try to re-think 
it.




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 18:44:34 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:44:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: What is Snape supposed to do?
In-Reply-To: <3ABF814B.E7ABB5BA@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010326184434.87242.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15218

>> 8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?
> 
> I haven't ever been exactly clear on what he intends Snape to do. 
> I assume he wants Snape to return and infiltrate the Death Eaters,
> but I'm not sure how he's supposed to manage that, since V. already

> knows (presumed from his listing of the DEs that aren't in 
> attendance) Snape is no longer faithful to him.


I haven't read GoF yet but piecing together the snippets from these
posts, I have a suggestion: perhaps Dumbledore hasn't given Snape a
specific task YET but is asking him to prepare for something he
hasn't done in years - leave the physical precincts of Hogswart and
venture into the outside world again.  In other words, get his
affairs in order.

We know that Hogswart is protected by strong magic and that's why
Harry is safe there but it follows then that others who have need of
protection would be safe there as well.



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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 18:48:41 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:48:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nitpicky Snapethoughts - Snape's hysteria in PoA
In-Reply-To: <99nvsv+ris7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010326184841.35219.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15219

> 	Suppose what happened was this: sometime before the murder of 
> James and Lily, Snape began to suspect that Sirius was the double 
> agent. Snape couldn't prove it, but secretly warned James. Snape
> has thought all this time that James ignored his warnings and chose
> Sirius anyway 

I assumed that Snape was the spy that warned Dumbledore that V. was
after the Potters, as Fudge mentioned in the Three Broomsticks.

If he was a DE at the time, he wouldn't have been able to talk to
anyone on the other side without danger.

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From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Mar 26 18:48:53 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:48:53 -0000
Subject: What is Snape supposed to do?
In-Reply-To: <20010326184434.87242.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99o2ul+38dt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15220

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
 
> I haven't read GoF yet but piecing together the snippets from these
> posts, I have a suggestion: perhaps Dumbledore hasn't given Snape a
> specific task YET but is asking him to prepare for something he
> hasn't done in years - leave the physical precincts of Hogswart and
> venture into the outside world again.  In other words, get his
> affairs in order.

I have to say, and I don't want this to sound unplesant, because it's 
not meant to, but why are you reading this list if you haven't read 
GoF yet? I mean, you're reading summaries of chapters you have yet to 
read, you already know everything that's going to happen in the book -
 aren't you afraid that our discussions here are going to adversely 
affect the way you read the book, once you finally get around to it?

I mean, the chapter summaries are like Cliff's Notes - even though 
our fellow listies are good writers, there's no way a summary could 
hope to invoke the same feelings that GoF itself does. And to be 
honest, the book is better :)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 19:04:42 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:04:42 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
In-Reply-To: <3ABF7E66.42387200@erols.com>
Message-ID: <99o3sa+6i7p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15221

catherine at c... wrote:

> > Also forgot to mention - did someone think that "Mrs Figg" could 
be
> > Harry's secret keeper?  It could be one of the protections that
> > Dumbledore has on Privet Drive.  And why is she so unpleasant to
> > Harry?

Margaret wrote:

> 
> I doubt she means to be.  Put yourself in her place; what do you
> talk about to this boy when you're under STRICT ORDERS not to
> breathe a WORD about his parents, his magic, the wizarding world
> in general, your own history as a witch . . .
> 
> About all that's left to do is haul out the pictures of your
> cats!

My thought wasn't that she was unpleasant, exactly (yeah, he thinks 
she's a "mad old lady," but I think that's just her reputation in the 
neighborhood, due to a few odd things that must have leaked out in 10 
years of masquerading as a Muggle), but just that she is not a fun 
babysitter.  She could play games, give him treats, let him watch cool 
movies, etc.--all the things that make kids look forward to being sent 
to certain sitters, especially kids who would rather be just about 
anywhere than home anyway.  Assuming that she is guarding Harry, too 
bad Dumbledore didn't find someone for the job who was also a fun, 
nurturing kind of person.  (She did give it a try with the 
several-years-old chocolate cake.  <g>)

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------------------
 "Damn it, all this eye-twinkling is making my pupils itch."
              --Dumbledore, "The Magical Mystika Tour," Rave

 www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=93315
--------------------------------------------------------------




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 19:33:40 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:33:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What is Snape supposed to do?
In-Reply-To: <99o2ul+38dt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010326193340.83619.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15222

> I have to say, and I don't want this to sound unplesant, because
> it's not meant to, but why are you reading this list if you haven't

> read GoF yet? I mean, you're reading summaries of chapters you have

> yet to read, you already know everything that's going to happen in 
> the book - aren't you afraid that our discussions here are going to

> adversely affect the way you read the book, once you finally get 
> around to it?

Actually, the summaries I have read have not been so detailed that
the book will be spoiled for me.  When I'm deeply into a book, I tend
to be consumed and I won't be remembering something I might have read
days or weeks before.



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From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 19:34:55 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:34:55 -0000
Subject: Snape's hysteria in PoA
In-Reply-To: <99nvsv+ris7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99o5kv+2isa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15223

Pippin wrote:

> 	I have a theory about Snape's behavior... he says,to Harry, 
"You'd 
> have been well served if [Sirius had] killed you! You'd have died 
like 
> your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in 
Black..."
> 
> 	Suppose what happened was this: sometime before the murder of 
> James and Lily, Snape began to suspect that Sirius was the double 
> agent. Snape couldn't prove it, but secretly warned James. Snape has 
> thought all this time that James ignored his warnings and chose 
Sirius 
> anyway and Snape is referring to this in the quote above. 

I've wondered about this possibility.  Part of the undercurrent of 
Potter-hatred in Snape, then, would be the bitter knowledge that he 
took a huge risk to go undercover and then warn James against Sirius 
(knowing that James would find it very hard to believe, and harder 
still if James knew the information was coming from Snape) and that if 
only James had listened to him he'd still be alive.  For twelve years 
he's felt angry and rejected, but also self-righteous--that arrogant 
Potter doomed himself; (even) it serves him right.  (If you're of the 
Snape-loved-Lily school, which I'm not, you get an extra dose of 
bitterness--the arrogant bastard brought Lily down with him.)

But I hadn't thought of the implications that you add:

> 	The idea that  James did in fact change secret-keepers 
provoked a 
> hysterical rejection from Snape because if Snape did accept it, he 
> would have to believe that he himself was responsible for James' and 
> Lily's deaths. 
> 	Later, Snape might have learned from Dumbledore that Sirius 
> independently suggested changing secret-keepers, which would have 
made 
> it easier for Snape to accept the truth. 

Yes--this is great!  Snape has a very big stake in not believing that 
anyone but Sirius was the traitor.  

He =could= just have a very big stake in it anyway.  Even if he 
=didn't= think Sirius was the traitor ahead of time, the events of 
that night (as understood for the past 12 years) support his emotional 
drama re: James and Sirius very nicely.  James was always an arrogant 
so-and-so, and now he was betrayed by his best friend--figures--he 
never would have doubted his own judgment for a moment, even when he 
should have.  Snape always knew Sirius was a bad egg, look what he did 
when he was 16, yada yada.  Plus all the Lily-angst if you want to add 
it in.  The revelations in the Shrieking Shack require him to give up 
that story and see Sirius as a fellow-sufferer in the struggle against 
V, and the attempt to protect the Potters in particular.

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
   The snake jerked its head toward Uncle Vernon
 and Dudley, then raised its eyes to the ceiling.  
 It gave Harry a look that said quite plainly:
   "*I get that all the time*."
                -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
--------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 26 19:41:20 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:41:20 -0000
Subject: not having read GoF
In-Reply-To: <20010326193340.83619.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99o610+puoh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15224

Heidi wrote:

> > I have to say, and I don't want this to sound unplesant, because
> > it's not meant to, but why are you reading this list if you 
> >haven't
> > read GoF yet? I mean, you're reading summaries of chapters you 
>have
> > yet to read, you already know everything that's going to happen in 
> > the book - aren't you afraid that our discussions here are going  
> >to
> > adversely affect the way you read the book, once you finally get 
> > around to it?

What I want to know is, how can you allow more than 60 seconds to 
elapse between finishing one book and starting to devour the next?  
Aren't you just dying to read GoF and unable to sleep 'til it's in 
your hands?  Careful, your obsession rating is slipping!  ;-)

Amy Z

--------------------------------------------------
 The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that
 stood alone in the middle of the grounds.
                 -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
--------------------------------------------------




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Mon Mar 26 19:57:01 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:57:01 -0000
Subject: not having read GoF
In-Reply-To: <99o610+puoh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99o6ud+sh9c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15225

I think that you should take the next 24 hours out and do it.  You've 
missed out on the whole "what happens next" anticipatory thrills of 
reading these books for the first time.  I know I'm not the only one 
who reads them over again, and it is true that they can have the 
same, if not deeper, emotional impact the next time round, but it is 
impossible to beat the excitement of the first reading.  How many 
people raced towards the end to find out who died?  I think that the 
words "Kill the Spare" were the most shocking I have read for a long 
time.
I bought my GoF in the airport the day it came out (having called 
them first to make sure that they would be open at 5.30am so I could 
buy it).  I then drove my husband mad by spending half the weekend in 
Paris glued to the book.  I just can't understand if someone loves 
these books enough to join an HP group can bear to put off reading 
the latest.  (But on the other hand, it means you don't have to wait 
as long for the next one).

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Heidi wrote:
> 
> > > I have to say, and I don't want this to sound unplesant, because
> > > it's not meant to, but why are you reading this list if you 
> > >haven't
> > > read GoF yet? I mean, you're reading summaries of chapters you 
> >have
> > > yet to read, you already know everything that's going to happen 
in 
> > > the book - aren't you afraid that our discussions here are 
going  
> > >to
> > > adversely affect the way you read the book, once you finally 
get 
> > > around to it?
> 
> What I want to know is, how can you allow more than 60 seconds to 
> elapse between finishing one book and starting to devour the next?  
> Aren't you just dying to read GoF and unable to sleep 'til it's in 
> your hands?  Careful, your obsession rating is slipping!  ;-)
> 
> Amy Z
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
>  The Whomping Willow was a very violent tree that
>  stood alone in the middle of the grounds.
>                  -HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban
> --------------------------------------------------




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 20:04:02 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:04:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] not having read GoF
In-Reply-To: <99o610+puoh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010326200402.64071.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15226

> What I want to know is, how can you allow more than 60 seconds to 
> elapse between finishing one book and starting to devour the next? 
> Aren't you just dying to read GoF and unable to sleep 'til it's in 
> your hands?  Careful, your obsession rating is slipping!  ;-)
> 

I have to wait til it comes in at the library.  

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From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar 26 20:19:46 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 14:19:46 -0600
Subject: Not having read GoF
References: <20010326193340.83619.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ABFA462.1FDC8EE@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15227

Hi --

Magda Grantwich wrote:

> Actually, the summaries I have read have not been so detailed that
> the book will be spoiled for me.

You do realize that you commented on my Ch 36 summary this morning? Ch
36 is the next-to-last chapter of the book.  And, actually it is quite
detailed & full of spoilers.  Of course, having it spoiled or not
spoiled is your prerogative, but I don't understand why you wouldn't
take the time that you're spending reading these messages & read GoF
instead.  Then, you can come back armed with the full set of knowledge.
I would think it would be very difficult to comment on most topics on
this group without any knowledge of GoF.  The Ginny valentine thread is
an exception, since it's uniquely limited to CoS.  But, so many of our
threads cross over into the full series .... I wouldn't recommend it
myself.  But, to each his own.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Mar 26 20:38:01 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:38:01 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary
In-Reply-To: <3ABF814B.E7ABB5BA@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <99o9b9+9ahj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15228

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Foster Williams <bafoster at m...> 
wrote:
> 

> > 
> > 2. Now: that pesky "gleam of triumph" in Dumbledore's eyes.  We've
> > discussed it & hashed it to death before, but does anyone have 
any new
> > thoughts about this?
> 
> Well, I don't know that this is a new thought, but I really do think
> Dumbledore sees that because Voldemort used Harry's blood, there is 
a
> "chink in his armour", so to speak.  Dumbledore probably sees 
something
> he could potentially use against V.

It will in the end turn out to be something like that, I think - 
but "the gleam of triumph" is a marvelously subversive passage. I 
think many readers get a bit too complacent about Dumbledore, and 
this certainly serves as a reminder to watch him very carefully. As 
I've said before, Dumbledore's amiable nature deftly conceals his 
skillful legerdemain (Ars celare artem, as the Romans calls it: The 
art that conceals art)
 
> > 
> > 
> > 5. We've discussed Cornelius Fudge a fair bit in the past.  Any 
new
> > thoughts?  Is he a head-in-the-sand Neville Chamberlain type or 
is his
> > refusal to act based on more sinister intentions?

It would be an imperfection in JKR's art if she made everyone who 
does not actively support Dumbledore a conscious agent of Voldemort. 
Throughout history, tyrants have relied on what Lenin called "useful 
idiots" as just as much as their own supporters. While Fudge could be 
a hidden Voldy supporter, more likely he is in deep denial. My guess 
is that Fudge may end up in a very unpleasant situation in Book Five, 
a captive of the Death Eaters, perhaps even a prisoner in Azkaban 
(which I see becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of Dementor, Inc in 
the next book)



> > 8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?
> 
> I haven't ever been exactly clear on what he intends Snape to do.  I
> assume he wants Snape to return and infiltrate the Death Eaters, 
but I'm
> not sure how he's supposed to manage that, since V. already knows
> (presumed from his listing of the DEs that aren't in attendance) 
Snape
> is no longer faithful to him.

But for the great Potion Prof to whip up a little Polyjuice should be 
the work of a moment......


    - CMC







From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 26 21:07:18 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (nera at rconnect.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 21:07:18 -0000
Subject: Course subjects
In-Reply-To: <99ilkm+r4hh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ob26+qhrh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15229

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> ---
> > 
> > Vlatka wrote:
> > > Also, I wonder if anyone has tried to figure out the number and 
> > names of classes offered at Hogwarts. 
> 
> Amy wrote:
> > 
> > When they're choosing their new classes (this must be in CoS) 
they 
> are looking through long lists of course descriptions.  Maybe most 
of 
> them don't end up happening, or have to be tutorials, because not 
> enough students sign up, but there seems to be quite a selection 
> beyond what we see the Trio taking.
> > 
>  It is said that Hermione "took nobody?s advice but signed up for 
> everything". By doing that she had to study arithmancy, ancient 
> runes, care of magical creatures, divination and muggle-studies. 
> the other subjects we?ve get to know of are history of magic, 
> herbology, transfiguration, charms, potions, astrology, DADA (and 
> Advanced DADA). there is also a broomstick-riding-course, although 
> this one is short. 
>  I don?t think Hermione took any other course beside those we get 
to 
> know about, considering that she usually speaks a lot about what 
she 
> studies. However, this doesn?t mean that there are nothing more is 
> taught at Hogwarts. There might be courses added as the student 
gets 
> older (example: Studies of Magical Languages, like troll, mermish 
or 
> gobbledegook...Alchemy...or Mugglestudies like the Arts, Modern 
> Languages, Mathematic oand the much awaited sexeducation :)
> Durmstrang and Beauxbatons does seem to teach English, since Fleur 
as 
> well as Krum (although with a rather noticeable accent) speaks it. 
> This could of course be some kind of translation-charm, thrown over 
> everybody - but this being the case, shouldn?t it have been 
mentioned?
> 
> /Jennifer

**************************************
I don't know if this helps or not, but it says in the last chapter of 
PoA:
"Hermione, 'Without Muggle Studies and Divination, I'll be able to 
have a normal timetable again.'"

Doreen, the Corn Patch Witch




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 21:19:04 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 21:19:04 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger
In-Reply-To: <3ABEBF03.DE07C242@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99obo8+b1nb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15230

Awesome character summary Penny!

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

>She excels in all her courses,
> but her best subject appears to be the one taught by Professor
> McGonagall: transfiguration.

Amy already addresssed this a bit, but I wanted to mention how 
well she does at Charms and Potions.  Just as she is the only one who 
can do some of the transfiguration work on the first try, she's also 
the only one who could make the feather fly on the first try, and the 
only one who consistently hit the mark with the pillows.  Amy already 
mentioned the 112% on her Charms exam, as well.  As for Potions, 
Polyjuice is supposed to be terribly difficult; I doubt Harry and Ron 
could have managed it without her.  She also whipped up a sleeping 
draught in CoS.  It's probably quite difficult to 'fix' a potion once 
it's already gone south too, but she managed to do that for Neville's 
shrinking solution, saving Trevor in the process.  

> Hermione has developed a self-assured dignity and maturity by GoF. 
> She is self-confident enough to keep her Yule Ball date a secret and 
> to transform herself from a "nerd girl" into a stunning young woman 
> for this occasion. 

It's funny, because this was one of the few places in GoF where I 
still saw a lingering trace of Hermione's insecurity.  I think if she 
was fully self-assured, she'd have just said she was going with Krum.  
I got the impression she was avoiding teasing by keeping it a secret.

> She seems very disdainful of "hero-worship," particularly in GoF.  

Now that *is* one of the signs for me of how much she's grown and how 
much more secure she's become.  I don't think she'd be fooled by a 
Lockhart type anymore!

> QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

> 1. Is she still the same bossy know-it-all that she was in PS/SS or 
has
> she "lightened up" quite a bit already?

She's definitely lightened up, and I don't think she's bossy really 
anymore.  She still has the occasional know-it-all (Hogwarts: A 
History!) moment, but she doesn't force it on people at random 
anymore.  I think she's learned a balance.
> 
> 2. Does she just study hard, either to make up for her average
> intelligence or out of insecurity, or does she instead possess
> above-average intelligence?  Both?

Both!  There'd have to be some innate ability in the magical arena, as 
it wasn't book learning that made that feather fly, and she's got a 
very strong, logical mind, but I don't think she's a flat-out genius 
or a lot of the studying for the sake of studying would bore her to 
tears.  She's a smart kid, and she's got a desire and the 
perserverance neccessary to put her over the top. 
 
> 4. Is she a braggart?

I don't think so.  I think she may have done a touch of that in the 
first book - kids that age tend to toot their own horns in hopes of 
impressing their peers.  But since then, I think she's been downright 
modest about her accomplishments.

> 9. Do you like or dislike Hermione?  Do you identify with her 
character?
> 

I love Hermione!  She's wonderful!  I don't identify with her much at 
all, though.  She's grown into this person who is just so strong and 
well-rounded and clever and... practically perfect in every way, as 
Mary Popins would say, that I can't get inside her head and look out 
the way I can with other characters.  I like her, I admire her, I even 
envy her a little, but I can't quite identify with her.

kimberly






From nera at rconnect.com  Mon Mar 26 21:28:18 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:28:18 -0600
Subject: Owl-order
References: <20010326111531.14622.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com> <3ABF5ABE.DD60583E@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <001c01c0b63b$ae397260$2814a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15231

I did a search on "owl-order" and came up with nothing ... so here goes...

In PoA, it says that Hermione bought Harry's present by Owl-Order. I am
assuming that this is like our mail-order.

Has this subject been discussed? Also, someone was questioning how Sirius
could have purchased Harry's broom without being discovered. Could he not
have used this owl-post?

If I am two books late and a knut short, please forgive me. Sometimes I dont
spot these things til the third or fourth readings, and somehow, think it is
unfair that they can not be discussed again, since some of us were not here
at the first run through.

Doreen, the Corn Patch Witch




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 21:58:52 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 21:58:52 -0000
Subject: A Copyright Registration Thing
In-Reply-To: <3ABF5FB3.334D42F4@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99oe2s+5eq0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15232


Ever writer I have spoken to who has published a book has told me that 
this would be pretty normal procedure, especially since this was a 
copyright for a foreign edition.

I wondered as well why Stouffer did not include the whole 
application-- I can only assume that she would have if it supported 
her case.


--Suzanne


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> 
> > The request first - can somebody in Washington obtain a copy of 
BOTH
> > pages of hte copyright registration form, so we can see for 
ourselves
> > if JKR signed the second page?
> >
> > On the second page of the application, at number 8, you can see 
that
> > an  application can be validly, legitimately and legally signed by 
a
> > number of individuals, including the author herself, the copyright
> > claimant or an *authorized agent*. The Agent is generally either 
the
> > lawyer or the publishing house, if the author has given power of
> > attorney to either, authorizing them to sign things on her behalf.
> 
> Heidi probably is guessing what I'm guessing: the copyright 
application
> could have been filled out by a legal assistant & signed by a lawyer 
for
> the publisher.  It would be completely within normal bounds for this
> sort of task to be delegated to a legal assistant, who just didn't 
know
> enough about JKR at the time to know that she *wasn't* a US citizen.
> Maybe it was an assumption on the part of the paralegal or maybe 
he/she
> flagged that section for the lawyer, asking for verification, & the
> lawyer was busy & didn't notice.
> 
> I would bet that the application was signed by someone on behalf of 
JKR,
> but it will be interesting to see if that's true or not.
> 
> Penny
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar 26 22:05:15 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:05:15 -0600
Subject: What Snape knew and when (was Nitpicky Snapethoughts)
References: <99mucd+p39f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABFBD1A.897ECC68@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15233

Amy Z wrote:

> IIRC, Snape and Fudge already know Sirius's version of events from
> Dumbledore at the end of PoA.  So Snape has heard it twice:  in the
> Shack and from Dumbledore.

Okay, I did this once before, but I don't seem to be very good at the
message search. I didn't do it in such detail, anyway. So here is the
sequence of events in the Shrieking Shack, with the section that Snape
heard pointed out. He didn't hear much.

In the Shrieking Shack--
Sirius drags Ron in, Harry & Hermione follow. They find Ron & Sirius in
human form, and discover than Sirius is an animagus. Much arguing, Harry
attacks Sirius, Crookshanks protects Sirius, Lupin arrives. Lupin and
Sirius come to understanding of what happened with the Potters,
mystifying our Trio who think this means Lupin's bad, too. Hermione
reveals Lupin is a werewolf. Lupin gives wands back to the Trio, and
gets them to agree to listen to him and Sirius. Lupin reveals he helped
write the map, says he is Moony. Tells them that Scabbers is Peter
Pettigrew.

Sirius loses it and tries to attack Scabbers. Lupin restrains him and
gets him to agree to explain things to Harry first.

Lupin says the map showed Scabbers as Peter Pettigrew, that the map does
not lie. Hermione says Pettigrew isn't on the list of registered
Animagi.

****HERE is where the door creaks and Snape comes invisibly in, under
Harry's cloak. Now is the point where he starts hearing things. He has
heard none of what went on before. He has not heard that Scabbers is
supposed to be Pettigrew, or that Sirius is an animagus.

Snape now hears:

Lupin tells about contracting lycanthropy, that there was no cure, and
even the potion Snape's been making is a recent discovery. Before the
potion, he was uncontrollable every month as a wolf. But headmaster
Dumbledore let him in with precautions. The Shack and the Whomping
Willow were there to keep Lupin isolated during his wolf phases.

Lupin reveals that his great group of friends was Sirius, Peter, and
James, who figured out his secret and became animagi to be with him. It
took until their fifth year to learn how. He *does not* say what their
forms were--he mentions only that Peter was the smallest, so he
manipulated the Willow, and that James and Sirius were large animals,
able to keep his wolf form under control. He does reveal the other
Marauders' aliases--Padfoot, Wormtail, Prongs. Harry tries to ask what
sort of animal his father was, but is cut off by Hermione.

Lupin agrees with Hermione that even with friends who could control him,
it was still a really stupid thing to do and a betrayal of Dumbledore's
trust, and he still feels guilty. He reveals his inner struggle of the
past year, too, about whether to reveal Sirius's animagus ability to
Dumbledore, and that he has not. He still didn't want Dumbledore to know
how he had betrayed his trust then, because he doesn't want to damage
the trust that is there now. He *still* has not mentioned what form
Sirius takes. And here is where he mentions Snape, "In a way, Snape's
been right about me all along."

Sirius asks what Snape has to do with it, and Lupin says, "He's here,"
which made me, in the first reading, remember the door opening and
wonder if he really WAS, whether Lupin was "speaking the truth without
realizing it" (I forget the literary term). Lupin continues, though, and
we see he means at Hogwarts.

Lupin says Snape, as a fellow teacher, fought against Lupin's
appointment. And that Snape, as a fellow student, didn't like Lupin and
his friends. Especially James, and thought he was jealous of James'
Quidditch ability. Snape had seen Madam Pomfrey taking Lupin to the
Willow once, had wondered why, and Sirius had told Snape the way to get
past the Willow. Snape followed Lupin to find out what the deal was, but
James had gotten wind of the trick, went after Snape, and pulled him
back, but Snape had seen Lupin and knew the truth. Dumbledore forbade
him to tell anyone. Harry asks if that's why Snape dislikes Lupin,
because he thought Lupin was in on the joke?

****HERE is where Snape reveals himself to the others in the Shack. Thus
far, the only new thing he has heard is that his old enemies, whom we
now call the Marauders, were unregistered animagi, and that they wrote
the map which so nastily insulted him earlier.

Snape says he saw the activated map on Lupin's desk, when he went to
Lupin's office with the potion which Lupin forgot to take. He saw Lupin
on the map running along the passageway. He follows. The Shrieking Shack
is *not* on the Hogwarts grounds, so it would not appear on the map, so
Snape could not at this point have seen Peter Pettigrew's name on it.
Even if he'd waited to examine it closely, instead of chasing after
Lupin right then.

Lupin tries to get Snape to listen. Snape won't, ties and gags Lupin,
and holds Black at bay. Our Trio try to reason with Snape--they want to
hear the rest of the story--but it seems to irritate Snape that they
aren't even grateful at his saving them, and will not listen.

Black says he'll come quietly if Ron's rat is brought, too. Snape
threatens him with the dementors with no chance to speak, and threatens
Lupin, too. Harry blocks the door. Snape offers to *make* Harry move,
and simultaneiously, Harry, Hermione, and Ron all do the Expelliarmus
charm to disarm Snape. The combined charms knock Snape back against the
wall, injured and unconscious.

****THIS IS THE END of what Snape hears in the Shack. He misses
*entirely* the whole scene where Lupin and Sirius make Pettigrew reveal
himself, tell what happened, and pretty much confess and grovel. He
doesn't even hear that Sirius is Harry's godfather, so I don't know that
he knows that, either.

Snape does not regain consciousness after they all leave the Shack,
after Lupin transforms, after Sirius transforms into a dog to control
him, after Pettigrew re-transforms and escapes, and after Sirius goes
after him. He does not regain consciousness until after Harry's Patronus
dispels the dementors, because he tells Fudge he doesn't know what made
them leave.

He still hasn't seen Sirius animagus form, nor heard it named, nor any
of the other Marauder's forms. He still has not heard Pettigrew's name,
other than in the discussion of old school days. He has not heard anyone
say Scabbers is Pettigrew. The sum total of his new knowledge from the
whole Shrieking Shack incident is only that the Marauders had animagus
forms and that they wrote the map.

So, all personal animosity aside, Snape still honestly believes Black is
a dangerous, demented murderer to the end of PoA. However, his reaction
when suddenly faced with Sirius at the end of GoF is *not* to whip out
his wand and try to subdue him, pending arrest and dementors. It is
pure, simple hatred on a personal level.

--Amanda, overkilling to dissipate animosity with local school district


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar 26 22:15:58 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:15:58 -0600
Subject: Fidelius on Privet again (was Chapter 36 Summary)
References: <99ntd3+o1k3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABFBF9E.1ED42DA5@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15234

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Also forgot to mention - did someone think that "Mrs Figg" could be
> Harry's secret keeper?  It could be one of the protections that
> Dumbledore has on Privet Drive.

Once more, dear friends, *whence* this belief that Harry is protected at
Privet Drive by the Fidelius Charm? I don't know that he's not (although
*I* don't think so), but it's getting bandied about on the list as if it
were canon, yet with no support from the text.

We're not as careful as we used to be about saying "I think" or "It
seems to me" or "if" or stuff like that. Aren't we supposed to make
distinctions between our theories and what we know for a fact? [You did,
you did, Catherine, you said "could," but this has been something I've
been noticing since the Great Salon Influx of 2000.]

--Amanda. I think.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morine10 at aol.com  Mon Mar 26 22:25:58 2001
From: morine10 at aol.com (morine10 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:25:58 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Picking a Valentine nit (was Ginny/Girl Harry, yada, ...
Message-ID: <e0.12448fdd.27f11bf6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15235

In a message dated 3/26/01 1:42:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
moongirlk at yahoo.com writes:


> And... if Lockhart 
> didn't mean students could send them to each other, then why would 
> Ginny be embarrassed?  If everyone knew that they were not from other 
> students but only silly concoctions of Lockharts, then Draco's 
> statement doesn't make any sense, and neither does Ginny's reaction.
> 

I believe that she was embarrassed because Draco pointed out- to a hallway 
full of students that she has crush on Harry.  Her reaction may have been odd 
since she didn't send it, but she does like Harry, and well, she was in the 
middle of a crisis at the time.  Her emotions were probably a bit on edge.

~Mo

~*~*Dungobombs Rule*~*~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ender_w at msn.com  Mon Mar 26 23:01:08 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:01:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 36 Summary
References: <20010326114254.35319.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002601c0b648$a6ae1160$78690f3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 15236


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Magda Grantwich 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 6:42 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 36 Summary


  >>7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part of the
  >>"old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the
  >>cats who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive 
  >>and had baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her 
  >>likely role in living in such close proximity to Harry all those 
  >>years?



  >She kept an eye on him and reported to Dumbledore that he >was growing, looked healthy, etc.  

  >I believe in PoA, she reappears as Crookshanks.

  Interesting theory, but I have two problems with it:
  a) Crookshanks is male and Mrs. Figg is female.  Now, there hasn't been anything in canon that says animagi *can't* change gender when they change into their animal shape, but I would think it would have been mentioned now.
  b) and here's where i might get myself in trouble again because I don't have my copy of GoF with me so I can't check this out, but does Hermione have Crookshanks with her in GoF?  If she does, then why would Dumbledore send someone to find Arabella Figg if she's already at Hogwarts in the form of Crookshanks?  And if Hermione doesn't have Crookshanks with her in GoF...well, then totally disregard what I just said.

  ender



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar 26 22:53:42 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:53:42 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Draco evil?
References: <99mkpr+79q6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABFC876.D09E3F04@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15237

nera at rconnect.com wrote:

> For instance, Draco had been watching the Muggle tossing from a
> clearing in the woods. If he were truly his evil father's "chip off
> the old block," he would have been out in the midst of the action,
> laughing his head off and making sport of them.

But if he wasn't a chip off the old block, can someone explain to me the
cruelty and bad intent he shows in CoS, during the scene where he's
talking to the Polyjuiced Harry & Ron (I forget which was Crabbe and
which Goyle)? Here's Draco himself, not onstage, in his own inner
sanctum talking to his two constant companions, and he is just as nasty
as he is in public. This scene is one of the main reasons I'm not
doubting that little Draco will be just as evil, come of age, as Lucius.
Just because someone's raised badly doesn't mean the bad raising won't
take.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar 26 23:04:24 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:04:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary: Hermione Granger
References: <99no0g+trii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABFCAF8.30A99BCE@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15238

Amy Z wrote:

> Caius Marcius wrote:
>
> > One of the things a well-rounded education should provide is make
> you
> > aware of and allow you to develop those aspects of your character
> > which have gone hitherto unnoticed (or under-noticed) by you.
>

Amy now:

> In general, I think the Sorting encourages readers to look for aspects
> of the characters that we don't see at first glance.

Which is a very good argument for the "all Slytherins aren't bad" case.
Perhaps Slytherin also has people with a latent desire to achieve, but
current bad self-images? Other forms of ambition? Those who have not yet
realized their ambition? If Hermione is in Gryffindor because her
intellect was not the part that needed "bringing out," what sorts of
students could be in Slytherin whose primary attribute is not
*currently* ambition?

--Amanda, slightly incoherent but I think the point got made


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Mon Mar 26 23:08:15 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:08:15 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nitpicky Snapethoughts - Snape's hysteria in PoA
References: <99nvsv+ris7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABFCBDF.B24237F7@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15239

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

>       I have a theory about Snape's behavior... he says,to Harry,
> "You'd have been well served if [Sirius had] killed you! You'd have
> died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken
> in Black..."
>
>       Suppose what happened was this: sometime before the murder of
> James and Lily, Snape began to suspect that Sirius was the double
> agent. Snape couldn't prove it, but secretly warned James. Snape has
> thought all this time that James ignored his warnings and chose Sirius
> anyway and Snape is referring to this in the quote above.

This has been proposed before--I, too, think Snape was probably the one
who warned James & Lily. And think it cost him to do it, in personal
terms, too, but we'll leave my pet theory out of it. <g>

>       The idea that  James did in fact change secret-keepers provoked
> a hysterical rejection from Snape because if Snape did accept it, he
> would have to believe that he himself was responsible for James' and
> Lily's deaths.

Except Snape had not arrived in the Shack when Lupin and Sirius were
discussing the change. And he was out cold before Pettigrew was
revealed. See my way, way too long post on What Snape Knew and When.

>       Later, Snape might have learned from Dumbledore that Sirius
> independently suggested changing secret-keepers, which would have made
> it easier for Snape to accept the truth.

This is still true, even if Snape didn't learn about Pettigrew in the
Shack.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bohners at pobox.com  Mon Mar 26 22:45:32 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:45:32 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] What Snape knew and when (was Nitpicky Snapethoughts)
References: <99mucd+p39f@eGroups.com> <3ABFBD1A.897ECC68@texas.net>
Message-ID: <00fc01c0b64b$bb79d4a0$b23bacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 15240

Amanda --

> So, all personal animosity aside, Snape still honestly believes Black is
> a dangerous, demented murderer to the end of PoA.

What a wonderful post.  This definitely sheds a lot of light on Snape's
uncharacteristic hysteria at the end of PoA.  Given how little useful
information he actually heard in the Shack, it's no wonder he simply could
not believe that Harry & Co. had *willingly* listened to Sirius or defended
him of their own volition, and no wonder that he flipped his lid at the news
of Sirius's escape.  How would you feel if you knew that a vicious mass
murderer whose escape from prison had terrified everyone had been in your
power, but then escaped?

> However, his reaction
> when suddenly faced with Sirius at the end of GoF is *not* to whip out
> his wand and try to subdue him, pending arrest and dementors. It is
> pure, simple hatred on a personal level.

Which, as somebody else has suggested, makes it very likely that Dumbledore
and Snape had a little talk after Snape had calmed down from the events of
PoA.  Dumbledore would know better than to try and reason with Snape in the
heat of the moment, but there's a good strong relationship and a lot of
respect between D. and Snape, and I really can't imagine that D. would just
leave him totally in the dark about Peter's infamy and Sirius's innocence.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From indigo at indigosky.net  Mon Mar 26 23:37:51 2001
From: indigo at indigosky.net (Indigo)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 23:37:51 -0000
Subject: not having read GoF
In-Reply-To: <20010326200402.64071.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99ojsf+t9h6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15241

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > What I want to know is, how can you allow more than 60 seconds to 
> > elapse between finishing one book and starting to devour the 
next? 
> > Aren't you just dying to read GoF and unable to sleep 'til it's 
in 
> > your hands?  Careful, your obsession rating is slipping!  ;-)
> > 
> 
> I have to wait til it comes in at the library.  
> 
> 
Oh, my stars!

Do you not have a birthday or an anniversary or a "I cleaned the 
attic" day coming up that someone could buy you the books as 
present/gift/reward? 





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 27 00:06:23 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:06:23 -0000
Subject: Nitpicky Snapethoughts - Snape's hysteria in PoA
In-Reply-To: <3ABFCBDF.B24237F7@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99olhv+9g5k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15242

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> foxmoth at q... wrote:
> 
> >       I have a theory about Snape's behavior... he says,to Harry,
> > "You'd have been well served if [Sirius had] killed you! You'd have
> > died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken
> > in Black..."
> >
> >       Suppose what happened was this: sometime before the murder of
> > James and Lily, Snape began to suspect that Sirius was the double
> > agent. Snape couldn't prove it, but secretly warned James. Snape has
> > thought all this time that James ignored his warnings and chose Sirius
> > anyway and Snape is referring to this in the quote above.
> 
> This has been proposed before--I, too, think Snape was probably the one
> who warned James & Lily. And think it cost him to do it, in personal
> terms, too, but we'll leave my pet theory out of it. <g>
> 
> >       The idea that  James did in fact change secret-keepers provoked
> > a hysterical rejection from Snape because if Snape did accept it, he
> > would have to believe that he himself was responsible for James' and
> > Lily's deaths.
> 
> Except Snape had not arrived in the Shack when Lupin and Sirius were
> discussing the change. And he was out cold before Pettigrew was
> revealed. See my way, way too long post on What Snape Knew and When.

Wonderful, wonderful post Amanda, but you are overlooking one 
thing...we don't know exactly when Snape arrived at the Shrieking 
Shack. He could have been listening *outside* the door. Remember, as 
you pointed out, he has no way of knowing from the Map that Sirius is 
in the Shack. Suppose Snape showed up at the point where Lupin is 
saying, "Everyone thought Sirius killed Peter. I believed it myself -- 
until I saw the map tonight. Because the Marauder's Map never lies..."

Snape could have continued to listen outside the door, having no reason 
to believe that Sirius is present or that the children are in immediate 
danger...until Sirius speaks again "If you're going to tell them the 
story, get a move on, Remus..." at which point Snape comes through the 
door no doubt thoroughly alarmed. It's true that he wouldn't have over 
heard about the switch, but being Snape, he might not need to...just 
hearing Pettigrew was still alive and had animagus powers might be 
enough to engender the horrible thought that Peter was the spy after 
all...a thought which Snape then violently rejects.
Pippin





From editor at texas.net  Tue Mar 27 02:21:54 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:21:54 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nitpicky Snapethoughts - Snape's hysteria in PoA
References: <99olhv+9g5k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ABFF942.91ABC0ED@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15243

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> Wonderful, wonderful post Amanda, but you are overlooking one
> thing...we don't know exactly when Snape arrived at the Shrieking
> Shack. He could have been listening *outside* the door.

Yes, I thought of this, but I considered that (a) he's been just *dying*
all year to have something to damn Lupin with, so why would he hesitate
to go in, since (b) he's wearing an Invisibility Cloak and can hear
better *and* see inside?

> Remember, as you pointed out, he has no way of knowing from the Map
> that Sirius is in the Shack.

Or the Trio--I don't think he's doing anything but following Lupin at
first, although he seems to know the Cloak was James' and is now
Harry's, so presumably when he found the Cloak by the Willow he might
have figured Harry, at least, was in danger.

> Suppose Snape showed up at the point where Lupin is saying, "Everyone
> thought Sirius killed Peter. I believed it myself -- until I saw the
> map tonight. Because the Marauder's Map never lies..."
>
> Snape could have continued to listen outside the door, having no
> reason to believe that Sirius is present or that the children are in
> immediate danger...until Sirius speaks again "If you're going to tell
> them the story, get a move on, Remus..." at which point Snape comes
> through the
> door no doubt thoroughly alarmed.

And then stands there, thoroughly alarmed, and eavesdrops, instead of
taking action? For quite a while? I think he considered Lupin quite a
danger enough, although he probably followed him in the expectation of
finding Sirius. He was trying to catch Lupin, found Sirius, and an added
bonus was that he got to save the skin of that wretched Potter boy and
his friends to boot! And then here they are, not even being remotely
grateful, acting like he's *interfering* by risking his life to save
them and catch this ravening murderer, just like that damned James
lightly ignoring his hard-won intelligence about the spy and getting
himself and Lily killed! It's enough to make you unhinged, isnt' it?

Point being, a logician like Snape simply wouldn't limit his options by
listening outside the door when he could be in a much better position to
act inside the room. It makes no sense for him to wait outside,
strategically or given his personality or looking at his advantage
wearing the Cloak.

> It's true that he wouldn't have over heard about the switch, but being
> Snape, he might not need to...just hearing Pettigrew was still alive

I maintain he never heard this, until he heard Sirius's story later at
the castle.

> and had animagus powers might be enough to engender the horrible
> thought that Peter was the spy after
> all...a thought which Snape then violently rejects.

Actually, considering that the aliases of the Marauders were one thing
Snape *did* hear in the Shack, I myself was looking for some violent
reaction, or some reaction, when Snape hears Wormtail mentioned as alive
and serving Voldemort. This doesn't happen until the end of GoF, during
the Crouch "confession" scene, when Crouch Jr. says that Voldemort shows
up at his house in the arms of his servant Wormtail. Snape knows who
this is. Snape himself made the Veritaserum, Crouch is *not* lying,
Pettigrew *is* alive and Sirius is innocent. If Snape had not already
known all this, i.e., if Dumbledore had not told him, I suspect we'd
have seen some reaction at this confirmation.

Since Snape did not react at all, isn't even mentioned at this juncture
of Crouch's speech, it seems likely that he already knows, and that's
why he only reacts to an old personal enemy, not a betrayer and
murderer, when Sirius transforms in front of him in the hospital wing.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 02:41:54 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 02:41:54 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger/SHIP
In-Reply-To: <3ABEBF03.DE07C242@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99ouli+iauv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15244

Great summary..and it has finally convinced me to become a SHIPper 
(is that right? prounounced as in slipper?)

H/N!

Hermione/Neville forever......just look at all the evidence..she 
notices his pain; she comforts him....He asks her out.......
destiny....

Susan






From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 02:45:33 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 02:45:33 -0000
Subject: gender balence/strong women
In-Reply-To: <01C0B570.1C5570E0.msmacgoo@one.net.au>
Message-ID: <99ousd+v8h7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15245

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Snuffles MacGoo <msmacgoo at o...> wrote:
> ----------------------
> Susan: No one has answered the question about fantasies about adult
> women/men in fanfiction.......
> ----------------------


I don't read fan fiction usually...I've read two or three?

So therefore I was inquiring about whether there were romantic/erotic 
fan fics about McGonagall or any of the other adult women.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 02:52:18 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 02:52:18 -0000
Subject: Pomfrey and Gender balance/strong women Madam  Pomfrey in particular
In-Reply-To: <20010325115649.48548.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99ov92+no3t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15246

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > Let me try again..
> > Why are all the people who are in positions of leadership men?
> > Why are the VAST MAJORITY of the characters who are pivotal, 
> > important, in cental  roles  --- MEN?
> > Why are the vast majority of the characters who are compelling, 
> > exciting, cool -- MEN..?
> > Sure, the 13% of characters who are women are wonderful, 
exciting, 
> > amazing, and I love them..
> > BUT why are all the important actors in the drama - MEN?
> > After all, this is fiction.
> > Why can't we envision a world in which some of the leaders and
> > actors are WOMEN?
> > Why are women too often relegated to the role of helpmeet, 
mother, 
> > girlfriend, wife, crush.....?
> > 
> > NO ONE has answered the question -- where are the men who stay 
home
> > with the children?
> > where are the men who are basically the supporters of the women 
who
> > act? where are men whose primary role is NURTURANCE?
> > And who have no other major role?
> 
> 
> Because these are the books she wrote and that's how she wrote them.
> 

Fine. I love the books. I was asking why in the long discussion of 
gender no one seemed to pick up on certain issues 

> I'm not unsympathetic to your questions or your concerns but it's
> really a lot to ask of one particular writer that she create a
> perfectly balanced world in her fiction.  She's writing a story for
> children 

I think she's said repeatedly that her books are not necessarily 
children's books. Am I wrong?


> 
> There was a thread here recently talking about whether HP is fantasy
> or science fiction.  I would suggest it is neither: it is children's
> literature of a sort the British seem to have a genius for and it
> describes the challenges every child faces in growing up.  What are
> Boggarts but the fears that every child has and needs to confront? 
> What is the mudblood/pureblood controvery but the prejudice every
> child experiences on the playground directed at him/herself or at
> others?  
> 

Certainly the mudblood/pureblood controversy could be seen as the 
prejudice every child experiences. My own opinion is that it is about 
racism.







From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 02:55:51 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 02:55:51 -0000
Subject: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
In-Reply-To: <99kqf3+5nus@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ovfn+8mnc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15247

> 
> Magda wrote in reply to me:
> 
> > Because these are the books she wrote and that's how she wrote 
them.
> > 
> > I'm not unsympathetic to your questions or your concerns but it's
> > really a lot to ask of one particular writer that she create a
> > perfectly balanced world in her fiction.  
> 


Amy responded:

> I can't speak for Susan, but I don't read her questions as a list 
of 
> demands for JKR. 

Susan says: You're correct. They absolutely are not.





 




From rina at love-productions.com  Tue Mar 27 03:01:07 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 21:01:07 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: gender balence/strong women/fic
Message-ID: <00a601c0b66a$2b3a3f00$37397e82@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15248

Susan wrote:

<<So therefore I was inquiring about whether there were romantic/erotic 
fan fics about McGonagall or any of the other adult women.>>

Sure. There's some. Most of them are slash, of the ones I've found[1], with a few Molly/Arthurs peppered in there. But since they are predominantly slash, there are relatively few of them, which is common in just about every fandom[2]. Are you looking for fic with them, or just seeing if there is any? Because there is fic about basically ANY character in the books; no one gets neglected in this fandom. 

Rina
Dean/Seamus fan

[1]Admittedly, I don't go looking for fic about the adult women characters. I basically read Ron/Hermione, m/m slash, or the occasional Hermione/Ginny. But of the ones I've stumbled on in my quest for the above stories, slash is mostly what I've found for Minerva, Narcissa, Molly, and Lily. 
[2]Most fic appears to be written by women, who seem to prefer writing m/f or m/m. That is a generalization, yes, but as a member of 6 fandoms over many years, I can tell you this is the general trend.

********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 03:06:52 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 03:06:52 -0000
Subject: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
In-Reply-To: <99m3oc+pr9e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99p04c+43om@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15249

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Jenn wrote:
>  
> > Unfortunately, we live in a world where the majority of high 
> positions 
> > ARE held by men.  It sucks and I hate it, but it is so.  Would as 
> many 
> > people have bought the whole idea if Hogwarts and MOM were run by 
> > women? 
> 
> Now, that raises an interesting question . . . are writers doing a 
> disservice when they suggest that the world is more just than it 
> really is?  It seems to me that half the court scenes I see on TV 
have 
> a black woman judge.  Would that this were possible in real 
life . . . 
> I've probably seen more black women judges on television than there 
> are in the entire US judicial system.  I'm glad everyone's seeing 
> this and absorbing the idea that black women can be strong, smart, 
and 
> worthy of respect, but on the other hand, I don't want people to 
start 
> thinking, "racism isn't a problem 'cause look at all those black 
women 
> in power"!
> 
> But JKR doesn't have this dilemma, because she's creating a world 
that 
> has a separate history from modern Muggle Britain.  Without making 
the 
> wizarding world a utopia, she could make it much more equal than 
the 
> Muggle world.  That would send an interesting message.  One of the 
> great things about speculative fiction is that you can do this kind 
of 
> thing without instantly getting a "that just isn't possible" 
response. 
>  Ursula LeGuin created a very interesting nonsexist society in The 
> Dispossessed, e.g. (I never miss a chance to plug one of my very 
faves 
> <g>).
> 
> Amy Z
> 


Or look at Star Trek - TOS...Watch it now and it seems hopelessly out 
of date. 

The original series had a woman second in command, but she was bumped.

There was controversy about having an "extra-terrestial" as the main 
character.

It was groundbreaking because of the racial mix of the command crew --
I'm sure many people have heard the story of Nichelle Nichols (the 
woman who played Uhura) deciding to quit and being told by Dr. King 
that she couldn't....because she was showing the world that an 
African American woman could be in a position of responsible 
authority...that George Takei, who played Lt. Sulu, spent time as a 
child in a Japanese internment camp in WWII in California, that they 
had the "first inter-racial" kiss on tv (and the actors never noticed 
until later. (If some of these details are wrong, I'm happy to be 
corrected). Chekov was controversial because he was Russian and

I could go through TOS and tell you in great detail (if I wanted to 
bother), the stuff that was terribly sexist, racist, etc..and I'm 
sure I could be taught a great deal by others doing the same thing.

As Star Trek continued, I happily overlooked a lot of the problems. 
But I do remember sitting in the theatre for the first movie that 
said "Where no ONE has gone before" instead of "Where no MAN has gone 
before" and starting to cry. (The Undiscovered Country?)
It was a validation of opportunity for women, a recognition of women  
that I hadn't even known I was missing......

So, I can be obsessed with JKR, love her books, love her characters, 
etc. and still hope that some of the biases that are still in the 
story might shift (and understand that I hope MY OWN biases will 
shift and I will grow and change). After all, it's too late to hope 
that about Tolkien or Lewis or many of my other favorite books...

Susan






From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 03:17:30 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 03:17:30 -0000
Subject: Why Ginny? was Gender balance/strong women/victims)
In-Reply-To: <3ABD73CB.879DF589@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99p0oa+71l5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15250

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Schlobin at a... wrote:
> 
> > In fact, she was picked by Lucius Malfoy as a victim because she 
is
> > the daughter of Arthur and Molly Weasley who are active combatants
> > against Voldemort/Malfoy and their allows. If they had not been
> > effective enemies of Riddle/Voldmort/Malfoy, Malfoy would not have
> > bothered. Lucius Malfoy maliciously set up Ginny Weasley to 
discredit
> > her parents.
> 
> I thought that Lucius selected Ginny because she was a Weasley, 
yes, but
> because Arthur Weasley is well-known for his acceptance of Muggles.
> Lucius is a big "pureblood" advocate, and the discrediting of the 
old,
> distinguished Weasley name would have weakened the position of 
those who
> favor accepting Muggles into wizarding society.
> 
> I thought Voldemort only entered into this as a means to an
> end--Riddle's diary was supposed to use Ginny to loose the monster, 
kill
> mudbloods, discredit her family, and perhaps bring down Hogwarts, 
the
> gateway of Muggles into the wizarding world. I didn't think the 
Weasleys
> having fought Voldemort had anything to do with the immediate 
action.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think we're both right, Amanda....my comments derived directly from 
Dumbledore's discussion with Lucius Malfoy at the end of CoS....I 
could go look it up.....

Susan




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 27 03:20:39 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 03:20:39 -0000
Subject: Nitpicky Snapethoughts - Snape's hysteria in PoA
In-Reply-To: <3ABFF942.91ABC0ED@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99p0u7+nokh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15251

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
ght of this, but I considered that (a) he's been just *dying*
> all year to have something to damn Lupin with, so why would he hesitate
> to go in, since (b) he's wearing an Invisibility Cloak and can hear
> better *and* see inside?

	 Snape knows he is taking a chance by going through the door. As 
Harry notes, the invisibility cloak is no good if  someone  bumps into 
you and as we learn in GoF, it doesn't protect you from stunning spells 
either.  Snape does go  in (moving with uncanny silence, hmm) as soon 
as  he hears Sirius so that he'll be in a position to protect Harry if 
necessary.  What he sees is that Sirius has no wand, Lupin's wand is in 
his belt and the trio all have their wands out and ready...so Snape, 
whose mindset as a spy is to gather information, waits. 
	But I figure we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
:)
Pippin





From kathleen at carr.org  Tue Mar 27 03:31:14 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (kathleen at carr.org)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 03:31:14 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger
In-Reply-To: <3ABF5976.B235DCDF@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99p1i2+241r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15252

Hi all!  

Penny wrote:
> As for Transfiguration, that point came from message #1518 (this 
group)
> -- a message from R/H captain Kathy.  You make some good points 
about
> her performance in other subjects; however, I don't disagree with
> Kathy's point that there seem to be more references to her 
excelling in
> Transfiguration than in other subjects.  She's obviously great at 
them
> all .... but it seems she's in a class by herself as far as
> Transfiguration goes.  There is more than one mention by McG that
> Hermione can do a transfiguration that no one else has mastered.

I thought this was really funny, because when I first read the part 
about Transfiguration in Penny's well-documented Character Summary, I 
thought, "That's random.  Who said that?" <sheepish grin>  So, of 
course, I had to go back and see what I said.  

Just to clarify, the point came up in a thread about all the 
important characters who excel in Transfiguration (the Marauders, 
McGonagall, Dumbledore).  I responded with:

>And Hermione is also really good at Transfiguration (then again, 
>she's good at 
>everything, but there are several very specific examples given of 
>times when 
>she is able to transfigure things the rest of the class can't).

So, see, I was really trying to support the idea of Transfiguration 
being somehow a "Good" area by allying Hermione with it, rather than 
saying she was better at it than anything else.  Although I agree 
that she is very good at it, we know if course that she's good at 
lots of things.  And I do agree with the idea that she is developing 
a mentoring relationship with Professor McGonagall (quick, Penny! add 
that to the list! <g>) , so I could see that she might work 
especially hard in Transfiguration, because Professor McGongall's 
approval is important to her.

I hope my rambling makes sense.  I'm getting out of practice with 
posting, what with the lack of shipping battles and all, ;)

Cap'n Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee





From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 03:59:49 2001
From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 03:59:49 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts motto
Message-ID: <99p37l+jtlk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15253

Hey, grownups, I can't remember what has been said about the Hogwarts
motto, can someone point me in the right message direction?

My son Jesse asked me what it said and then what it meant, and then 
said "Why Harry bother the dragon?"..I said that I didn't know that
it was Harry who teased the dragon...then Jesse started talking about
Bilbo Baggins and Smaug....

So I thought I'd better revisit the list commentary

Thanks in advance..

Susan




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 27 04:19:16 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 04:19:16 -0000
Subject: Lily's friend - Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <99n6gt+7lbr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99p4c4+2f5u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15254

> Well, I don't think that Dumbledore has blackmailed him into 
silence,
> but let's face it: Snape isn't the innocent boy who was lurred into
> the tunnel by evil Sirius Black. He had to go there all by himself, 
> and that's why Dumbledore simply had put part of the blame on him, 
> too. Maybe he was even punished like Sirius supposedly was, and I 
am 
> sure that Dumbledore required silence about Remus being a werewolf
> from everybody who was involved, including Snape. Why? He had let
> Remus into the school because he wanted to offer him the opportunity
> to go to school, finish his education and enable him to get a job
> later. If he asked James, Sirius and Snape to keep the secret about
> Remus, it wasn't blackmail at all IMHO. Maybe Snape actually *had*
> some dirty little secrets, but I think it didn't matter at all and
> wouldn't have changed anything to Dumbledore's decision.
> 
> Monika

Ah, it's one thing for Dumbledore to ask for it and another thing for 
Snape to keep his word.  The big question is why did Snape stay 
silent?  Remember we are talking about a future DE here, who probably 
would have no hesistation in irritating and thwarting Dumbledore.





From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 27 04:33:18 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 04:33:18 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger/SHIP
In-Reply-To: <99ouli+iauv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99p56e+h8ub@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15255

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> Great summary..and it has finally convinced me to become a SHIPper 
> (is that right? prounounced as in slipper?)
> 
> H/N!
> 
> Hermione/Neville forever......just look at all the evidence..she 
> notices his pain; she comforts him....He asks her out.......
> destiny....
> 
> Susan

LoL! Awwww . . .

Well, I think Neville might very possibly have a bit of a crush on 
Hermione, or develop one in the future. He did ask Ginny to the Yule 
Ball, though -- but maybe that's because he considers Hermione "out 
of his league." I like Neville, I feel a great deal of sympathy for 
him, and I hope that he becomes closer to the trio as the books 
progress.

However, I found it distinctly ominous that in PoA when Harry 
pictures the scene between Sirius in Pettigrew in the street after he 
finds out that Sirius "betrayed" his parents, he pictures Peter as 
looking like Neville. Could have just been a convenient comparison, 
but it could also have been some nice foreshadowing. I only caught 
that when I listened to the audio version.

I don't think Neville'd ever go the way of Peter, though. We see in 
PS that he's got a backbone.

Stacy




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 04:47:59 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 04:47:59 -0000
Subject: Gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <3ABC013B.F86F3853@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99p61v+ir0h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15256

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> > Susan wrote: I agree with Amy that people "see" two strong female 
characters and
> > > that equals ten. We are so used to (this is a generalization of
> > > course) women blending into the woodwork, being quiet, or not 
taking
> > > up space, that when women are as vocal as men, they are 
perceived as
> > > loud. A man and a woman can speak in the same tone and be 
direct in
> > > their comments. The man will elicit no particular reaction; 
people
> > > will notice (and usually not positively) the woman. 
Argumentative
> > > women will be characterized as a (word rhymes with snitch);
> > > argumentative men will be seen as engaging in fun debate.
> > >
> >
> > Kimberly responded: Now see, when I read something like this, I 
can't help but ask - By
> > whom would the women be regarded this way

> Actually, I definitely 100% whole-heartedly agree with Susan.  I 
base
> that observation on the legal profession.  Female lawyers who take a
> strong stand or are assertive or ambitious are almost invariably
> labelled as "snitches" to use Susan's polite jargon.  Male lawyers
> displaying the *exact* same behavior are doing their job, 
successful,
> hard-hitting but efficacious

I am with Penny and Susan on this one.  I grew up in New York City, 
where there was a well-known female politician who was in Congress, 
ran for mayor, etc. named Bella Abzug.   Bella wore big hats and had 
a loud mouth.  The newspapers never tired of telling us what a big 
mouth she had, calling her obnoxious, arrogant, and assorted other 
names.  However, pretty much all NYC politicians are obnoxious loud-
mouths.  (Its hard to survive in NYC otherwise.)  But there is no 
question she was treated differently by the press and much of the 
public because she was a woman who joined the all-boys club and had 
the nerve to act like one of them.  

I will stop here before I get totally OT, resulting in one of those 
polite-yet-firm admonishments from the Moderators.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*





From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 27 04:48:40 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 04:48:40 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
In-Reply-To: <99o3sa+6i7p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99p638+kj1p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15257

I'm betting that Mrs. Figg was a decent, though dull, baby-sitter, 
who probably liked Harry a lot more than she could let on. My guess 
is that she's fairly old (between McGonagall and Dumbledore), and she 
had to be in order to fit the bill for the job for a couple reasons.

1. She had to be of an age when she could be retired. In general, you 
ask two types of people to take care of your kids: teenagers and old 
ladies. Teenagers expect to get paid. Old ladies *sometimes* don't. 
My guess is that Mrs. Figg *offered* to take care of Harry in the 
beginning -- for free. That was enough to cause the Dursleys to turn 
a blind eye to anything odd they heard about her. And I would bet 
money that the Dursleys have NO CLUE about who she really is. A 
witch! On Privet Drive! My God, can you imagine the scandal!?

2. She had to be able to drop her life and go do this. The poor witch 
has spent how many years as a Muggle? I bet she wasn't thrilled when 
Dumbledore asked her to do this, but I think that she'd have to be a 
pretty dedicated person to do it. She might turn out to be a *very* 
cool character in the end, despite her dry cake and cat photos (and 
there's nothing wrong with cat ladies! I belong to the Future Famous 
Weird Cat Ladies Club myself).

I also agree with whoever said that there probably wasn't much for 
her to talk about with Harry, since she couldn't let him in on 
anything.

And by the way . . . why *couldn't* she let him in on anything? And 
if she was communicating with Dumbledore all this time, why on Earth 
didn't Hagrid know that Harry was completely clueless about his 
parentage? You'd think that around Harry's ninth birthday or so, Mrs. 
Figg might have owled Dumbledore and said something like, "You 
know . . . the Potter boy really has no idea about what he is. The 
invitation from Hogwarts will probably be a bit of a shock. Do you 
think I should whip out the *real* photo albums and have a chat with 
him next time the Muggles send him over?" Would have helped Harry out 
immensely, I think . . . though PS might have been less entertaining.

Sorry if this has been said already. Many, many messages and not as 
many minutes in my day.

Stacy




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 27 04:52:09 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 04:52:09 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts motto
In-Reply-To: <99p37l+jtlk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99p69p+kj4c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15258

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:

Never tickle a sleeping dragon, right?

I think JKR's said that she picked an interesting but practical 
motto. I think she said something along the lines of, "Mottos 
like 'Reach for the Stars!' are all well and good, but I wanted 
Hogwarts to have one that was very practical.

So it's just a fancy-schmancy, funny motto that, when you consider 
Harry's encounters with dragons, is also *extremely* logical advice.

Stacy




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 27 05:53:04 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 21:53:04 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fidelius on Privet again (was Chapter 36 Summary)
In-Reply-To: <3ABFBF9E.1ED42DA5@texas.net>
References: <99ntd3+o1k3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010326214917.03237890@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15259

At 04:15 PM 3/26/01 -0600, Amanda Lewanski wrote:
>Once more, dear friends, *whence* this belief that Harry is protected at
>Privet Drive by the Fidelius Charm? I don't know that he's not (although
>*I* don't think so), but it's getting bandied about on the list as if it
>were canon, yet with no support from the text.

Isn't the whole point about the Fidelius Charm is that only *one* person
(i.e. the Secret Keeper) knows the true location of someone?  It seems
to me that it *can't* be the FC, because *everybody* (including V!)
knows that Harry is stuck with the Dursleys every summer!



                                                 -- Dave




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 27 06:42:08 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 06:42:08 -0000
Subject: Fidelius on Privet again (was Chapter 36 Summary)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010326214917.03237890@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <99pco0+6oh4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15260

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:> 
Isn't the whole point about the Fidelius Charm is that only *one* 
person
> (i.e. the Secret Keeper) knows the true location of someone?  It 
seems
> to me that it *can't* be the FC, because *everybody* (including V!)
> knows that Harry is stuck with the Dursleys every summer!
> 
> 
> 
>                                                  -- Dave


I agree with Dave. EVERYONE knows where Harry is, and I very much 
doubt that should Voldemort creep up on Number 4 and stick his nose 
up against the Dursleys' window, that he wouldn't be able to see 
Harry.

My guess is that Harry is protected by something we haven't heard 
about yet. There's been a lot of "ancient magic" at work in Harry's 
favor so far -- with the Dursleys, and with Lily as well, I believe. 
I think the "ancient magic" has mostly to do with familial love (or 
possibly just familial connections, as I doubt we can say that the 
Dursleys love Harry at all).

Stacy




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Mar 27 08:40:11 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:40:11 -0800
Subject: Young Snape - H/N - Mrs Figg
Message-ID: <3AC051EA.C5F4D2FB@wicca.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15261

Monika wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., MMMfanfic at h... wrote:
> > The curious thing is why didn't the teenage Snape let it slip
> > that  Lupin is a werewolf (snip)
> > There's nothing  Dumbledore can do about it if the
> > teenage Snape didn't keep his word.  Just as there's
> > nothing Dumbledore can do when the Potions
> > Master decide to let all Slytherins know.
> > My theory, totally unsupported by the canon, is that the
> > teenage Snape has some dark secrets of his own and
> > Dumbledore has implicitly
> > blackmailed him into silence.
> I am sure that Dumbledore required silence about Remus
> being a werewolf from everybody who was involved, including
> Snape. (snip)  it wasn't blackmail at all IMHO. Maybe Snape
> actually *had* some dirty little secrets, but I think it didn't
> matter at all and wouldn't have changed anything to
> Dumbledore's decision.

I agree with Monika, but I'll go further: it doesn't matter whether
Severus was the innocent boy who was tricked by Black into breaking a
school rule (curfew) and putting himself in danger, Dumbledore STILL let
him know that if ANYONE among the students, other than the select few he
was bawling out in his office just then, found out about Lupin's
condition, Severus would be expelled, regardless of whether he was the
one who let on and without any reason specified for the expulsion other
than Headmaster's discretion. MMMfanfic seems not to have noticed that
one thing Dumbledore could do to the teenage Snape is expel him, which
(judging from Hagrid's case) could involve breaking his wand and making
it illegal for him ever to do magic again.

For that matter, what Dumbledore could do to the Potions Master is fire
him. "Severus, I regret that someday you must learn that you cannot
always get away with crossing me every time the whim takes you to do
so." If he has to stay at Hogwarts to protect him against vengeful Death
Eaters, that would be a death sentence. Otherwise, only his feelings
would be hurt (as he could get another job). However, Remus insisted on
resigning and leaving even tho' Dumbledore tried to talk him into
staying (I'm not sure if that is in canon or just my impression) and I
suppose Dumbledore decided there was no point to losing a good Potions
teacher in addition to a good Defense teacher.

Stacey wrote:
> Well, I think Neville might very possibly have a bit of a crush on
> Hermione, or develop one in the future. He did ask Ginny to the Yule
> Ball, though -- but maybe that's because he considers Hermione "out
> of his league."

I thought Ginny said that Neville had asked Hermione first, because
Hermione was always helpful to him with school work, but Hermione had
already had a date for the Ball, so Neville asked Ginny as his second
choice (great for her ego, right?). Ron assumed that Hermione didn't
really already have a date for the Ball but had simply lied to avoid
going with Neville.

Pippin said I'm Mrs. Figg. My dusty house smells of cat rather than
cabbage, but I hospitably offered her a choice of chocolate candy left
over from last Easter or from Christmas before last (we hadn't got
around to opening last Christmas's yet, I just opened it last week) and
showed her pictures of Egyptian and Abyssinian cats (relevant to her fic
in progress) in my Breeds of Cats coffee table book.....
--
          /\ /\
           + +     Mews and views
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston

                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Mar 27 12:56:09 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:56:09 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger/SHIP
In-Reply-To: <99ouli+iauv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99q2l9+npbe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15262

No, no, no... RON and Hermione.  I have become quite obsessed with 
this.  All through the Yule Ball build up my heart was almost 
breaking for Hermione.  She wanted the boys to notice that she was a 
girl, which they don't until they are absolutely desperate for dates 
of their own, and they don't even notice her new teeth until Ron's 
interest is piqued with regard to her mystery date.  I think she 
played all of this superbly.  She had the right attitude (disgusted 
with Ron for choosing good looks over character), and made Ron look 
shallow in comparison.  She had the good sense to know exactly what 
would make Ron sit up and take notice of her(ie going to the ball 
with Krum, Ron's hero) and she generally shows that she is streets 
ahead as far as general maturity is concerned.  I was going to say 
that this is usually the case between young male and female teenagers 
of that age, which is why it seems right that Hermione should go for 
someone older like Krum (I even linked her to Percy at one stage), 
but Hermione is streets ahead of most of the other girls as well. 
(None of the silly giggling in corners for her).

All this seems more likely on rereading, in light of JKR's comments 
in the Comic Relief online interview.  Someone asked if Hermione 
liked Ron as more than just a friend, and she said that the answer to 
that was in GoF.  Therefore I am sure that there will be developments 
at some stage.

Incidently, Ginny is the other person who comes out very well here.  
She accepts an invitation from Neville, and then is desperately 
disappointed that she can't go with Harry.  But she has too much 
integrity to let Neville down, showing a thoughtfulness and 
sensitivity that the boys seem to lack at this stage.  

Ginny and Hermione are developing into stronger female characters all 
the time, and I think there will come a time when Ron and Harry will 
recognise Ginny's worth and stop treating her as Ron's baby sister.


(By the way, what is a Shipper?)
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Schlobin at a... wrote:
> Great summary..and it has finally convinced me to become a SHIPper 
> (is that right? prounounced as in slipper?)
> 
> H/N!
> 
> Hermione/Neville forever......just look at all the evidence..she 
> notices his pain; she comforts him....He asks her out.......
> destiny....
> 
> Susan




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Mar 27 13:08:36 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:08:36 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger/SHIP
In-Reply-To: <99p56e+h8ub@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99q3ck+9t28@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15263

> I don't think Neville'd ever go the way of Peter, though. We see in 
> PS that he's got a backbone.
> 
> Stacy

I can't bear the thought of Neville going that way.  I also don't 
think it's very plausible, considering that we now know how his 
parents suffered at the hands of V's followers.  He has more reasons 
than most to hate everything V stands for.  Neville, as you say has 
backbone, and I have a strong feeling that he would do anything 
rather than betray everything his parents believed in and sacrificed 
their sanity for.   This is fine as Neville appears to be basically a 
decent person.  Someone else may resent their parents for sacrificing 
themselves and making him practically an orphan by standing up to V.  
He also has seen what torture has done to his parents.  Would he be 
able to stand up to the same kind of treatment, knowing what happened 
to them?  I have a feeling that we are going to find out exactly how 
strong Neville is.

Catherine




From laurence at lwhyatt.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Mar 27 13:28:39 2001
From: laurence at lwhyatt.freeserve.co.uk (laurence at lwhyatt.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:28:39 -0000
Subject: Lily and James alive?
Message-ID: <99q4i7+dvet@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15264

Ever since reading PoA for the second time I have thorght that there 
may be a possibility that L+J are still alive. Now JKR has always 
said in the chats that 'magic cannot bring people back to life' and 
many people have interpreted this as L+J being dead and never coming 
back. But as fasr as I am aware (and correct me if I am wrong) JKR 
has never said that we will never see a living L+J, only implied it. 
Also, what or who is Crookshanks? He, she or it seems to be a very 
clever cat for hearing Ron talk about Scabbers and his whereabouts. 
Could there be a posability that Crookshanks is an anamagus? I mean 
JKR is very fond of the things (Pettigrew, Reta Skeeter). Now if he 
is, then who is he? Could it be Mrs Figg that I think we are all 
certain is the same as Arabella Figg or is there a posiability if 
Lily Potter? I doubt that James would have never told her that he is 
an anamagus and she may well have been interested and asked him to 
teach her how to do it.
Another reason for L+J still being alive is that during the Prior 
Incanem (or whatever) James came out of the wand before Lily. Now I 
don't think that JKR would have made a mistake that big if it is a 
mistake because when Harry sees that dementors he hears his dad 
saying to Lily 'It's him, you take Harry and I'll hold him off'. 
Harry never sees either his Mum or Dad get killed, only a flash of 
green light that must have created his scar. Anyway if they were 
killed then James would have been killed first and then Lily so they 
would have come out of the wand in reverse order.
I know that's a bit muddled but I hope you get the drift!

Laurence




From MMMfanfic at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 27 13:41:20 2001
From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com (MMMfanfic at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:41:20 -0000
Subject: Young Snape - H/N - Mrs Figg
In-Reply-To: <3AC051EA.C5F4D2FB@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <99q5a0+kb9j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15265

Well, then we agree to disagree then.
My reasoning of why Dumbledore can't expel Snape is the following:
It's known that werewolves are dangerous and the parents will be 
happy if someone blew the whistle -- not withstanding the fact that 
Lupin is not particularly dangerous.  If the 'whistle-blower' is 
expelled, then there will be naturally an uproar from the parents.  
In addition, Dumbledore has no proper ground to expel Snape at all -- 
as far as I can see, he's not breaking any school rules by revealing 
Lupin's condition, except he disobeys a direct order from the 
Headmaster, which he can always say was a honest mistake.  If he 
takes his case to the Board of Governors, there's no question that 
the parents will side with him.  Both factors work in Snape's favour -
- but of course teenage Snape may not realise that or he just freaks 
out by the *possibility* of expulsion.  So, I'm rooting for something 
other than expulsion.
To go back to my original point about blackmailing -- the threat of 
expulsion is still a form of blackmail.

> I agree with Monika, but I'll go further: it doesn't matter whether
> Severus was the innocent boy who was tricked by Black into breaking 
a
> school rule (curfew) and putting himself in danger, Dumbledore 
STILL let
> him know that if ANYONE among the students, other than the select 
few he
> was bawling out in his office just then, found out about Lupin's
> condition, Severus would be expelled, regardless of whether he was 
the
> one who let on and without any reason specified for the expulsion 
other
> than Headmaster's discretion. MMMfanfic seems not to have noticed 
that
> one thing Dumbledore could do to the teenage Snape is expel him, 
which
> (judging from Hagrid's case) could involve breaking his wand and 
making
> it illegal for him ever to do magic again.

No, I'm not ignoring the fact that Dumbledore can expel him but he 
has to have a very, very good reason such as the death or serious 
injury to a fellow student.
May be it's because I am younger and still remember how school and 
punishment works. There's a due process involving expulsion because 
as you mentioned, there are grave consequences and they have to make 
sure everyone is being treated fairly.
Here's a summary of how expulsion works:
There're the interviews with both the student and parents (jointly 
and separately), psychological assessment with counselor, the board 
of governors (which takes about two weeks) and all of them have to 
agree that the transgression is serious and unacceptable and they 
cannot see the transgressor to continue his education in this school--
 i.e. they have to be totally irredeemable.  Then they have to wait 
for the confirmation from the Education department, which gets the 
final say.  And muggle kid can always go to another school.
May be things are different for magical world but expulsion as I know 
it is not something Dumbledore can just do on the spot.  So, all 
Snape has to do is to say it was an honest mistake -- he can even do 
a Tom Riddle -- writes a diary and leaves it lying around.  Surely, 
Dumbledore cannot expel him on that and even if he tried, the Board 
will certainly reverse it.

> For that matter, what Dumbledore could do to the Potions Master is 
fire
> him. "Severus, I regret that someday you must learn that you cannot
> always get away with crossing me every time the whim takes you to do
> so." If he has to stay at Hogwarts to protect him against vengeful 
Death
> Eaters, that would be a death sentence. Otherwise, only his feelings
> would be hurt (as he could get another job). However, Remus 
insisted on
> resigning and leaving even tho' Dumbledore tried to talk him into
> staying (I'm not sure if that is in canon or just my impression) 
and I
> suppose Dumbledore decided there was no point to losing a good 
Potions
> teacher in addition to a good Defense teacher.
 
I'm questioning whether Snape's 'a good Potions teacher' but somehow, 
I always feel there are more between Snape and Dumbledore than reveal 
to us.




From editor at texas.net  Tue Mar 27 13:41:09 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 07:41:09 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and James alive?
References: <99q4i7+dvet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC09874.D0C569BA@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15266

laurence at lwhyatt.freeserve.co.uk wrote:

> Ever since reading PoA for the second time I have thorght that there
> may be a possibility that L+J are still alive. Now JKR has always said
> in the chats that 'magic cannot bring people back to life' and many
> people have interpreted this as L+J being dead and never coming back.
> But as fasr as I am aware (and correct me if I am wrong) JKR has never
> said that we will never see a living L+J, only implied it.

But that would imply, unmistakably, that both Lily and James were
willing for their son to have the most horrible childhood imaginable. I
imagine you can justify it if you say it had to happen for Voldemort to
be defeated, but if this isn't using evil to a good end, I don't know
what is!

Besides, Sirius says "I set out for your parents' house straight away.
And when i saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies...I realized
what Peter must've done....what I'd done...." (PoA, US p. 365).

The argument could be made that it might not have been James and Lily's
bodies, if they were unrecognizable, but the other Avada Kedavra victims
we've seen were totally unmarked or harmed (except by being dead). Even
if James and Lily were damaged when the house was destroyed, I think
Sirius in his grief would have made sure it was them and that they were
indeed beyond help.


>  Could it be Mrs Figg that I think we are all certain is the same as
> Arabella Figg or is there a posiability if Lily Potter?

Again, I don't want to think Lily could be that cruel, to abandon her
son to the Dursleys.

> I doubt that James would have never told her that he is
> an anamagus and she may well have been interested and asked him to
> teach her how to do it.

By all canon accounts, becoming an Animagus takes years of study and is
quite dangerous. I don't think it would be beyond Lily, but it's not
like a card trick you can learn at a sitting.

> Another reason for L+J still being alive is that during the Prior
> Incanem (or whatever) James came out of the wand before Lily. Now I
> don't think that JKR would have made a mistake that big

Um, well, she did. Bummer, I know, but she's confirmed the order's
wrong.

--Amanda



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Mar 27 14:00:59 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:00:59 -0000
Subject: The Answer is in GoF! (was Re: Character Summary: Hermione Granger/SHIP)
In-Reply-To: <99q2l9+npbe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99q6er+ip5u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15267

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> No, no, no... RON and Hermione.  I have become quite obsessed with 
> this. 
<grin!> I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing near you. You'll 
probably be getting an email either onlist or in private mail pretty 
soon from SugarQuill Island. (What, this doesn't make sense? It will!)

> 
> All this seems more likely on rereading, in light of JKR's comments 
> in the Comic Relief online interview.  Someone asked if Hermione 
> liked Ron as more than just a friend, and she said that the answer 
to 
> that was in GoF.  Therefore I am sure that there will be 
developments 
> at some stage.
It's interesting to see you and the other Ron/Hermione Relationship 
Promoters (aka the R/H Shippers) so sure - because those of us on the 
Harry/Hermione ship are convinced that when she kissed him at the end 
of GoF, she's making it very clear to him, and to Ron, that she likes 
*harry* :)
Of course, those of us who think that Draco & Hermione have an "off 
the page" study group relationship will continue to live in our 
little Alternative Universe. We like it there.

And Angela - I do love your "summer vacation" day in the life, 
although I'm not sure that Draco would waste any time with Millicent 
Bullstrode...






From meckelburg at foni.net  Tue Mar 27 14:05:30 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:05:30 -0000
Subject: Hi, I'm new/ Harry's relatives hidden by Fidelius- charm
Message-ID: <99q6na+o67l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15268

I know you don't like non-text parts in the messages., but I have to 
ask the other member to excuse spelling, grammar and other English- 
mistakes. I am a german HP- Fan, who doesn't get the possibility to 
use the English- language very often. I hope it isn't too annoying!

I don't know if this was discussed before:

After I read PoA I thought Harry might have some more family, only 
hidden by the fidelius-charm. If James or Lilly were the keepers of 
secret, then nobody else will know, now that they're dead.

mecki




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Tue Mar 27 14:29:09 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:29:09 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
In-Reply-To: <99p638+kj1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99q83l+tjqr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15269

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> And by the way . . . why *couldn't* she let him in on anything? And 
> if she was communicating with Dumbledore all this time, why on 
Earth 
> didn't Hagrid know that Harry was completely clueless about his 
> parentage? You'd think that around Harry's ninth birthday or so, 
Mrs. 
> Figg might have owled Dumbledore and said something like, "You 
> know . . . the Potter boy really has no idea about what he is. The 
> invitation from Hogwarts will probably be a bit of a shock. Do you 
> think I should whip out the *real* photo albums and have a chat 
with 
> him next time the Muggles send him over?" Would have helped Harry 
out 
> immensely, I think . . . though PS might have been less 
entertaining.

Yes, why didn't she ever report to Dumbledore all the weeks where she 
wouldn't see him, that we know he spent locked in the cupboard? I can 
allow her not reporting his wretched clothing - I mean, she's a witch 
living as a Muggle, and we all know that witch/wizard fashin sense 
isn't the same as Muggles, but the rest of it? There'd better be some 
major Family-oriented charm, otherwise I'll be miffed that Dumbledore 
didn't send Harry, with a monthly stipend, to someone from the old 
crowd...like the Weasleys...in November 1981.
The only thing I can think of is that she wasn't in communication 
with Dumbledore, because she didn't want to risk it becoming public 
in the wizarding world that The Boy Who Lived was ensconced on Privet 
Drive in Surrey - not to protect him from Voldie & those malicious 
death eaters, but to protect him from the well meaning Wizard on the 
Street following him around like groupies and Daily Prophet reporters 
reporting on his every move. 
I admit, it's a lame explanation, but it's the only one I can come up 
with...




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Mar 27 14:30:18 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:30:18 -0000
Subject: Lily and James alive?
In-Reply-To: <99q4i7+dvet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99q85q+fgkg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15270

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., laurence at l... wrote:
> Ever since reading PoA for the second time I have thorght that 
there 
> may be a possibility that L+J are still alive. Now JKR has always 
> said in the chats that 'magic cannot bring people back to life' and 
> many people have interpreted this as L+J being dead and never 
coming 
> back. But as fasr as I am aware (and correct me if I am wrong) JKR 
> has never said that we will never see a living L+J, only implied 
it. 
> Also, what or who is Crookshanks? He, she or it seems to be a very 
> clever cat for hearing Ron talk about Scabbers and his whereabouts. 
> Could there be a posability that Crookshanks is an anamagus? I mean 
> JKR is very fond of the things (Pettigrew, Reta Skeeter). Now if he 
> is, then who is he? Could it be Mrs Figg that I think we are all 
> certain is the same as Arabella Figg or is there a posiability if 
> Lily Potter? I doubt that James would have never told her that he 
is 
> an anamagus and she may well have been interested and asked him to 
> teach her how to do it.
> Another reason for L+J still being alive is that during the Prior 
> Incanem (or whatever) James came out of the wand before Lily. Now I 
> don't think that JKR would have made a mistake that big if it is a 
> mistake because when Harry sees that dementors he hears his dad 
> saying to Lily 'It's him, you take Harry and I'll hold him off'. 
> Harry never sees either his Mum or Dad get killed, only a flash of 
> green light that must have created his scar. Anyway if they were 
> killed then James would have been killed first and then Lily so 
they 
> would have come out of the wand in reverse order.
> I know that's a bit muddled but I hope you get the drift!
> 
> Laurence

The only people who came out of V's wand were people who were 
killed.  V had just previously used his wand to torture Harry and one 
of the Death Eaters, and this didn't come out during the Priori 
Incantatum, therefore it seems that this has the effect of creating  
temporary ghosts of people killed and things which no longer exist 
which can be recreated (such as the Dark Mark during the Quidditch 
World Cup).  (Please don't tell me about the recreation of the Dark 
Mark, I can't explain that yet).  And leading on to why some people 
become ghosts, and others don't - those that do all have one thing in 
common...violent deaths.

Also, hasn't this mistake in order been corrected in the later 
reprints?  I am sure that someone has mentioned recently that this 
was merely an continuity error on JKR's part.

I just don't see the logic in Lily and James still being alive.  And 
I am sure that Dumbledore would know if they were and he is forever 
giving Harry pep talks about them being alive within him etc.
I also think that although we will probably here more about their 
earlier lives etc, that JKR also uses them as a device to teach 
children about death.

Catherine





From meckelburg at foni.net  Tue Mar 27 14:34:38 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:34:38 -0000
Subject: Beasts in the "Schoolbooks" to attack Harry?
Message-ID: <99q8du+2nm9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15271

In "Fantastic Beasts" several really dangerous animals are hidden in 
Forbidden- forest sections. What creature do you think Harry will have 
to face in the next books ( because or in spite of Hagrid?)?




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Mar 27 14:35:16 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:35:16 -0000
Subject: Fidelius on Privet again (was Chapter 36 Summary)
In-Reply-To: <99pco0+6oh4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99q8f4+8fgj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15272

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:> 
> Isn't the whole point about the Fidelius Charm is that only *one* 
> person
> > (i.e. the Secret Keeper) knows the true location of someone?  It 
> seems
> > to me that it *can't* be the FC, because *everybody* (including 
V!)
> > knows that Harry is stuck with the Dursleys every summer!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >                                                  -- Dave
> 
> 
> I agree with Dave. EVERYONE knows where Harry is, and I very much 
> doubt that should Voldemort creep up on Number 4 and stick his nose 
> up against the Dursleys' window, that he wouldn't be able to see 
> Harry.

You are both right.  I know I shouldn't be doing "me too" messages, 
but the more I think about it, the more it seem that literally 
everybody knows where Harry is.  in PS/SS before Harry found out 
about magic etc, he was often meeting strange people in the street 
etc.  It seems as though a lot of people were keeping an eye on him.





From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 27 14:50:46 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:50:46 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Re: Being Clear about Opinions (was Fidelius on Privet again)
References: <99ntd3+o1k3@eGroups.com> <3ABFBF9E.1ED42DA5@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AC0A8C6.49F793A1@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15273

Hi --

Amanda Lewanski wrote:

> Once more, dear friends, *whence* this belief that Harry is protected
> at
> Privet Drive by the Fidelius Charm? I don't know that he's not
> (although
> *I* don't think so), but it's getting bandied about on the list as if
> it
> were canon, yet with no support from the text.
>
> We're not as careful as we used to be about saying "I think" or "It
> seems to me" or "if" or stuff like that. Aren't we supposed to make
> distinctions between our theories and what we know for a fact? [You
> did,
> you did, Catherine, you said "could," but this has been something I've
>
> been noticing since the Great Salon Influx of 2000.]

Amanda raises a very good Netiquette point.  I thought this was included
in our Netiquette file, but I just checked and it's not.  So, one of us
Moderators will revise that file.  I know I've raised this point
before.  It's extremely important that you use some phrase to indicate
when you are expressing an opinion or espousing a theory rather than
making a factual statement based on the canon.

Here are some examples:

IMO -- In my opinion
IMHO -- In my humble opinion

I think
I believe
My theory is:
This is all speculation but ...

You get the point I'm sure.  It can get very confusing if people don't
make these distinctions.

Newbies (and old-timers if you haven't checked in awhile) -- Please
review the VFAQs (Very Frequently Asked Questions), the Netiquette
document, the OT-Chatter description, the Announcements group
description, and the HPforGrownups - Shorthand guide.  The answers to so
many of your questions can be found there!!!

Thanks!

Penny
The Mod Squad




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Tue Mar 27 14:57:39 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 09:57:39 -0500
Subject: What Snape knows; and what he's asked to do
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC07D5@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15274

What Snape knows....:

Amanda wrote a wonderful summary of the Shrieking Shack sequence and many
good thoughts were added by Rebecca and AmyZ. And then Pippin wrote:

> Wonderful, wonderful post Amanda, but you are overlooking one 
> thing...we don't know exactly when Snape arrived at the Shrieking 
> Shack. He could have been listening *outside* the door. 

To which Amanda replied:
 
> Yes, I thought of this, but I considered that (a) he's been  just *dying*
> all year to have something to damn Lupin with, so why would  he hesitate
> to go in, since (b) he's wearing an Invisibility Cloak and can hear
> better *and* see inside?
> 
> (CMC) > Remember, as you pointed out, he has no way of knowing from the
Map
> (CMC) > that Sirius is in the Shack.
> 
> Or the Trio--I don't think he's doing anything but following Lupin at
> first, although he seems to know the Cloak was James' and is now
> Harry's, so presumably when he found the Cloak by the Willow he might
> have figured Harry, at least, was in danger.
> 
> (large snip) 
> Point being, a logician like Snape simply wouldn't limit his 
> options by
> listening outside the door when he could be in a much better 
> position to
> act inside the room. It makes no sense for him to wait outside,
> strategically or given his personality or looking at his advantage
> wearing the Cloak.
>
Also, remember that the _reason_ he saw the map in the first place is
because he was bringing Lupin his potion--which Lupin did not take. So Snape
has further cause for urgency and to NOT wait outside the door because he
knows Lupin will likely turn into a werewolf soon, and if the kids are
nearby, he has to get them out quickly, personal risk be damned.



....And what he's asked to do:
In response to the questions at the end of Chapter 36, Caius wrote:

> > > 8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?
> > 
> > I haven't ever been exactly clear on what he intends Snape to do.  I
> > assume he wants Snape to return and infiltrate the Death Eaters, 
> but I'm
> > not sure how he's supposed to manage that, since V. already knows
> > (presumed from his listing of the DEs that aren't in attendance) 
> Snape
> > is no longer faithful to him.
>

There are some factors to consider regarding this problem. First of all,
it's true that Karkaroff tried to name him and Dumbledore publicly stated
that Snape "rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned
spy for us, at great personal risk." (GoF, Ch. 30) So it's very possible
that many DE's know that this is what Dumbledore believes, and that V has
gathered this intelligence already through Crouch and Wormtail.

However, consider the consequences to Snape if he _doesn't_ try to return to
the DE's. In Ch. 33, Voldemort refers to the missing death eaters:

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One,
too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me
forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most
faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service."

The three dead guys could be Rosier, Wilkes, and someone else unnamed. The
coward is Karkaroff and the faithful servant is of course young Crouch,
leaving Snape the one who has left forever. If V isn't exaggerating (and why
should he do?), the alternative to not returning is death.

Now, could Dumbledore conceivably protect Snape if he didn't go back? Maybe.
But Snape is clearly wedged in a very tight spot: not returning is a huge
risk and a liability to Dumbledore's plans, the School's safety, and not
least Snape's life; while returning is a huge risk and a liability to his
life exclusively. Dumbledore is sensitive to that risk, and therefore asks,
not tells, Snape to undertake it for the greater gain.

Understandably, this has been the subject of much speculation in fanfic as
well. I won't go into the various tortures fans have anticipated for poor
Snape, but I will list what I believe to be the most logical progression of
events:

I feel it's entirely likely that Snape will face a great deal of pain and
tribulation getting back into the DE's good graces, but certainly he is not
the only DE to have gone to lengths to survive in the wake of V's rise and
fall. It's well within the realm of possibility that he can gloss over the
little bits of information he did pass to Dumbledore as "insignificant,"
since who knows the extent to which his work as a mole caused DE attacks to
fail? He can cite other people's maneuvers to cover their butts, not the
least of whom is Lucius Malfoy, who convinced everyone he was acting under
the Imperius curse for years (yeah, right).

Assuming that Snape has the capability to grovel, worm, bully, and lie his
way back in, he still won't have an easy time of it. It's likely that he
will not be trusted; the other DE's will only accept his return grudgingly,
and certainly he's in for a few Cruciatus curses aimed his way. It's
probable that he won't be given any majorly useful information, he may have
to work under "more loyal" supervision, and he'll probably get busted down
to "bad servant" and made to do menial support tasks for some time. The road
back to his former position in the order will be long and arduous, and he
may die before he succeeds. But he at least has to try, because if he
doesn't, he will certainly become a target for revenge.

Gwen



From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Tue Mar 27 15:22:32 2001
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (Hillman, Lee)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:22:32 -0500
Subject: Errata--misquote!
Message-ID: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC07D6@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15275

In my last message, I cited a conversation between Amanda and Pippin, and
mistakenly attributed a section of Pippin's comments to CMC. Apologies! 

Too many posts and not paying enough attention to the digest....

Oops!

Gwen
> > 
> > (CMC) > Remember, as you pointed out, he has no way of 
> knowing from the
> Map
> > (CMC) > that Sirius is in the Shack.
> > 



From zsenya at sugarquill.com  Tue Mar 27 15:25:02 2001
From: zsenya at sugarquill.com (zsenya at sugarquill.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 15:25:02 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <3ABEB9F7.2CA876D9@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99qbce+cfmn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15276

> muggle-reader at a... wrote:
> > I truly want Percy to side with Dumbledore and the rest of the
> > Weasley's in the upcoming books. J. K. Rowling could have Percy 
see
> > the light. But at this point, Percy's character can convincingly 
go
> > either way.


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
 
> Yeah, it can.  You're definitely right about that.   I have more
> confidence in Percy though than in Ron to be honest.  I see Ron as a
> much more likely pawn of the dark side than Percy.
> 
> Penny

Zsenya writes: I don't see either one of them going to the "Dark" 
side. I see Percy as more likely to side with the Ministry in the 
beginning, which is not exactly the same as the Dark side 
(Voldemort).  I don't want to get into the whole Ron argument again, 
as we differ on this subject.  I CAN see Ron acting in a sort of spy 
capacity (pretending to go to Voldemort but really working for 
Harry). Percy and Ron are actually alike in many ways, and I see the 
same forces that will persuade Percy to leave the Ministry in play to 
keep Ron on the right team.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 27 15:27:43 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 15:27:43 -0000
Subject: FF: gender balance/strong women
In-Reply-To: <99ousd+v8h7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99qbhf+tb0k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15277

Susan wrote:
> 
> I don't read fan fiction usually...I've read two or three?
> 
> So therefore I was inquiring about whether there were 
romantic/erotic 
> fan fics about McGonagall or any of the other adult women.
> 

Yes, there are.

There are definitely many more hetero or m/m fics than f/f, which I 
put down almost entirely to the comparative dearth of female 
characters.  Not surprisingly, Hermione is featured most 
often--whether in romantic/erotic fics or others.  I've run across 
fics starring McGonagall, Lily, Narcissa . . . you start to scrape the 
bottom of the barrel pretty soon when you try to write about adult 
women from HP.  I'm sure people have written about Hooch, Pomfrey, the 
mysterious Sinistra, but I can only take so much extrapolation, 
myself--I like to read about characters whom I know a bit better than 
that.

Amy Z




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 27 15:30:06 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 09:30:06 -0600
Subject: Blue Peter transcript Harry getting killed off
Message-ID: <00dc01c0b6d2$cfbe0c60$7614a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15278

It really disturbs me that JKR has said before that she would never kill off Ron Weasley, Harry's best friend, but she has teased several times about, "How do we know that Harry will survive the series?"  Does anyone else have a problem with this?


Doreen, the Corn_Patch_Witch


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 27 15:36:00 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 15:36:00 -0000
Subject: What Snape Knew and When He Knew It
In-Reply-To: <99p0u7+nokh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99qc10+236k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15279

Amanda wrote of Severus Milhous Snape:

 I considered that (a) he's been just *dying*
> > all year to have something to damn Lupin with, so why would he 
hesitate
> > to go in, since (b) he's wearing an Invisibility Cloak and can 
hear
> > better *and* see inside?
> 
Pippin wrote:

 Snape knows he is taking a chance by going through the door. 
As 
> Harry notes, the invisibility cloak is no good if  someone  bumps 
into 
> you and as we learn in GoF, it doesn't protect you from stunning 
spells 
> either.  Snape does go  in (moving with uncanny silence, hmm) as 
soon 
> as  he hears Sirius so that he'll be in a position to protect Harry 
if 
> necessary.  What he sees is that Sirius has no wand, Lupin's wand is 
in 
> his belt and the trio all have their wands out and ready...so Snape, 
> whose mindset as a spy is to gather information, waits. 

One reason he might have listened at the door awhile is that the door 
is only slightly ajar, and he can't come in without pushing the door 
open, which will look fishy.  So you could imagine a scenario in 
which he waits outside until things start to sound urgent, then 
decides to risk sneaking in.  Fortunately for him, they all put the 
door swinging open down to "old houses do that."  Add to the Heroic 
Adventurers Handbook:  When a door swings open and no one comes in, be 
very, very suspicious, especially when you've left your Invisibility 
Cloak on the ground.

Amy Z




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 27 15:44:02 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 15:44:02 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger/SHIP
In-Reply-To: <99p56e+h8ub@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99qcg2+i2dj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15280

-Love2write wrote:
> 
 However, I found it distinctly ominous that in PoA when Harry 
> pictures the scene between Sirius in Pettigrew in the street after 
he 
> finds out that Sirius "betrayed" his parents, he pictures Peter as 
> looking like Neville. Could have just been a convenient comparison, 
> but it could also have been some nice foreshadowing. 

Could be--it's certainly the kind of thing JKR does--but at the time, 
Harry thinks of Peter as an innocent victim, a friend of his parents' 
(I think--maybe he doesn't know that piece yet), and a not-very-good 
student.  The connection between that person and Neville is a natural 
one to make, and sets us up for the big surprise of what Peter was 
really like.

> I don't think Neville'd ever go the way of Peter, though. We see in 
> PS that he's got a backbone.

And he knows only too well what Death Eaters will do.  If he went bad, 
I'd want to see a very good explanation of how someone whose family 
was destroyed by Voldemort ended up joining him.

Amy Z




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Mar 27 16:06:40 2001
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 16:06:40 -0000
Subject: 3 posts including Re: B P transcript Harry getting killed off
In-Reply-To: <00dc01c0b6d2$cfbe0c60$7614a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99qdqg+8h1n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15281

I'm ruining the Threading by combining posts, here's the first one:

IIRC around the time of the Blue Peter interview, one or a few people 
said something about now having a date certain for when James and 
Lily were in school. I want to know about that and haven't been able 
to think of a unique enough word to search the egroup archive 
with.

Here's the second one:

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> It really disturbs me that JKR has said before that she would never
> kill off Ron Weasley, Harry's best friend, but she has teased
> several times about, "How do we know that Harry will survive the
> series?"  Does anyone else have a problem with this?

Personally, I would be more surprised if Harry survives the series 
than if he dies in order to destroy Voldemort. Someone evil as 
powerful as V is presented to be, and someone destined to destroy the 
evil one, it fits the archetypes that the hero has to die to kill the 
villain. It also settles ALL arguments about what would H do in his 
adult life and will JKR write more books about him.

Here's the third one:

MMMfanfic argued that Dumbledore couldn't expel student Snape for no 
reason, a secret reason, or a petty reason because expulsion from 
Muggle schools requires something resembling due process. I think the 
Headmaster of Hogwarts has a great deal more arbitrary power than the 
Headmaster of a Muggle school, and can indeed expel students for 
petty reasons.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 27 16:12:04 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:12:04 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys/ Ginny Weasley
References: <99q2l9+npbe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC0BBD4.BE1E0327@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15282

Hi --

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> No, no, no... RON and Hermione.  I have become quite obsessed with
> this.

> All this seems more likely on rereading, in light of JKR's comments
> in the Comic Relief online interview.  Someone asked if Hermione
> liked Ron as more than just a friend, and she said that the answer to
> that was in GoF.  Therefore I am sure that there will be developments
> at some stage.

Ah, you're *sure* about that, are you?  There's plenty of H/H evidence
in GoF too, you know.  Her answer was quite ambiguous in my mind.
Hermione's feelings are quite open to more than one interpretation.  <g>

Like Heidi said, some of us think the fact that she kissed Harry at the
end of GoF could be a signal that she has romantic interest in Harry.
She chose to spend virtually all her time with Harry when Harry & Ron
were fighting.  She couldn't be bothered to talk to Viktor Krum, who had
just saved her from the lake & declared his feelings for her, because
she was too busy cheering for & talking to *Harry*.  Krum is jealous
enough of Harry as a potential romantic rival to confront Harry about
their relationship, and what he says is that Hermione talks about Harry
all the time!  We are not led to believe that he has a similar
conversation with Ron or that he in any way regards Ron as a threat to
his relationship with Hermione.  Krum doesn't cite Skeeter's article as
the basis for his jealousy -- he bases it entirely on Hermione's very
own actions.  Skeeter also apparently perceives that there's a possible
angle there.  If Hermione's feelings for Ron were really all that
obvious, why would Skeeter think that her articles about H & H would
touch a nerve?  Skeeter clearly has an agenda .... if there was truly
nothing there, then would she have used that particular angle or tried
to find something else to get at Harry?

So .... you get my point.  "The answer is in GoF" is really no answer at
all in my mind.  :--)

> Ginny and Hermione are developing into stronger female characters all
> the time, and I think there will come a time when Ron and Harry will
> recognise Ginny's worth and stop treating her as Ron's baby sister.

Hermione has always been a strong character.  She's developing into a
more poised young woman, but she's always been strong.

I heavily dispute the notion that Ginny is growing into a stronger
character.  She's still actively excluded from the Trio.  She gets very
little development or "on-screen time" in GoF (a tad more than PoA but
then, what would it take?).  What is Ginny's "worth"?  We don't know
hardly anything about her.  She's the most undeveloped Weasley character
at this point.  All we know is that she's chatty at home but hopelessly
shy around Harry.  She was Riddle's pawn/victim in CoS.  What else do we
really know about Ginny?  We don't even know who she hangs around with
(we know the twins' best friend is Lee and that Fred has some sort of
relationship with Angelina).  I maintain we know next to nothing about
Ginny.  Sorry, but I can't get behind the H/G ship at all without *alot*
more info on little Ginny.  Being a Weasley is not enough in my mind
(yeah, I know ... I just lost any shot of ever joining W.A.I.L.,
right?).  <g>

> (By the way, what is a Shipper?)

Read the VFAQs!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 27 16:16:33 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:16:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
In-Reply-To: <99q83l+tjqr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010327161633.15712.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15283

> The only thing I can think of is that she wasn't in communication 
> with Dumbledore, because she didn't want to risk it becoming public
> in the wizarding world that The Boy Who Lived was ensconced on
> Privet Drive in Surrey - not to protect him from Voldie & those 
> malicious death eaters, but to protect him from the well meaning 
> Wizard on the Street following him around like groupies and Daily 
> Prophet reporters reporting on his every move. 
> I admit, it's a lame explanation, but it's the only one I can come
> up  with...

I don't have the book with me right now but in PS/SS, when McGonagall
meets Dumbledore on Privet Drive and they discuss the issue, he does
make reference to the benefits of Harry being raised with the
Dursleys and not in the wizarding world.  The impression I got was
that this kind of childhood would toughen him up for the big
challenges ahead.

There's at least an MA thesis for somebody in comparing Harry's story
with traditional epic hero sagas.  Maybe that brilliant
three-year-old who immediately said "King Arthur" when his mother
told him about HP could write it.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 27 16:27:53 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:27:53 -0600
Subject: Percy or Ron: Pawns of the Dark Side?
References: <99qbce+cfmn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC0BF88.E97918BD@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15284

Hi --

zsenya at sugarquill.com wrote:

> I don't see either one of them going to the "Dark" side.

I don't see either of them knowingly going to the Dark Side either.  The
debate was whether Percy could be an unwitting pawn of the Dark Side
because of his blind, rigid adherence to rules & authority.  Demelza
posits that Percy has already been a pawn of the Dark forces because he
didn't alert anyone to the Crouch Sr. situation.  He just continued to
act on the notes that were coming.  He didn't question in other words;
he just acted.

I think this is a valid point, but I think Percy may have learned a
valuable lesson in that regard.  He will likely still struggle with his
career ambitions in Fudge's MoM versus his family loyalties.  However, I
think in the end that Percy will do the right thing.  And, I think he
will be on guard enough now to resist becoming a pawn again.

Ron, OTOH, still strikes me as someone who could be an unwitting pawn of
the Dark side.  He has his own very strong ambitions that were
emphasized quite alot in GoF.  I am not arguing that he would ever ever
knowingly betray Harry.  But, he does have problems resisting the
Imperius curse for example.  Might this not be an indication that he
would be a more likely target for Voldy's forces than Hermione?  If you
were going to target someone close to Harry -- Ron makes the most sense
to me.

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 27 16:30:28 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:30:28 -0600
Subject: Harry getting killed off
References: <00dc01c0b6d2$cfbe0c60$7614a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3AC0C024.76B975E@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15285

Hi --

Doreen wrote:

> It really disturbs me that JKR has said before that she would never
> kill off Ron Weasley, Harry's best friend, but she has teased several
> times about, "How do we know that Harry will survive the series?"
> Does anyone else have a problem with this?

Actually, she hasn't said "never" with respect to killing off Ron.
She's said that she finds it funny that kids are always asking her not
to kill off Ron.  She said they know enough to recognize that the hero's
best friend often dies.  She's bothered by the fact that noone seems to
concerned about whether Hermione will die or not.  Everyone just assumes
she'll be fine.

Of course, she would tease about Harry maybe not making it.  She doesn't
want to give away the farm in these chats.  She's just trying to set us
up to not necessarily believe that he *will* make it to the end --
casting doubts about the ultimate outcome is all she's doing IMO.  She's
certainly not going to say a definite yes or no with respect to the
survival of any of the major characters, but especially not Harry, Ron
or Hermione.  :--)

Penny



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Mar 27 17:06:31 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 17:06:31 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys/ Ginny Weasley
In-Reply-To: <3AC0BBD4.BE1E0327@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99qhan+n0dp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15286

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> > No, no, no... RON and Hermione.  I have become quite obsessed with
> > this.
> 
> > All this seems more likely on rereading, in light of JKR's 
comments
> > in the Comic Relief online interview.  Someone asked if Hermione
> > liked Ron as more than just a friend, and she said that the 
answer to
> > that was in GoF.  Therefore I am sure that there will be 
developments
> > at some stage.
> 
> Ah, you're *sure* about that, are you?  There's plenty of H/H 
evidence
> in GoF too, you know.  Her answer was quite ambiguous in my mind.
> Hermione's feelings are quite open to more than one 
interpretation.  <g>
> 

> She chose to spend virtually all her time with Harry when Harry & 
Ron
> were fighting.  She couldn't be bothered to talk to Viktor Krum, 
who had
> just saved her from the lake & declared his feelings for her, 
because
> she was too busy cheering for & talking to *Harry*.  Krum is jealous
> enough of Harry as a potential romantic rival to confront Harry 
about
> their relationship, and what he says is that Hermione talks about 
Harry
> all the time!  We are not led to believe that he has a similar
> conversation with Ron or that he in any way regards Ron as a threat 
to
> his relationship with Hermione.  Krum doesn't cite Skeeter's 
article as
> the basis for his jealousy -- he bases it entirely on Hermione's 
very
> own actions.  Skeeter also apparently perceives that there's a 
possible
> angle there.  If Hermione's feelings for Ron were really all that
> obvious, why would Skeeter think that her articles about H & H would
> touch a nerve?  Skeeter clearly has an agenda .... if there was 
truly
> nothing there, then would she have used that particular angle or 
tried
> to find something else to get at Harry?
> 
> So .... you get my point.  "The answer is in GoF" is really no 
answer at
> all in my mind.  :--)
 
> > 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm
> 
> Penny
 
Sorry to labour over this, but in that case, why is Hermione so 
furious with Ron and not Harry, when HP is behaving in just the same 
way?  It is Ron she is mad with for not noticing that she's a girl, 
not Harry.  I know you will probably say that she cuts Harry a lot of 
slack because of having to deal with being Champion etc. but she 
still doesn't seem to care less that he wanted to take Cho to the 
ball.  I also think that she was spending time with Harry because she 
was being her normal supportive self (helping with summoning charms 
etc.)  Where is the evidence that she spends less time with Ron?  She 
is more mediator than on Harry's side;  she has to spell it out to 
Harry exactly what Ron's problem is and she makes it clear that she 
is very unhappy about the situation and wants Harry to sort it out 
(which he won't).  

Regarding Krum, his jealousy of Harry is understandable, whether 
founded or not.  Harry is his rival in the tournament, he knows 
Hermione is trying to help Harry and wants him to win, and he 
probably can't get past the idea of Harry's fame and status.  It is 
highly unlikely that Krum even noticed Ron's existence, apart from 
his being Harry's friend.  He sees Harry as a rival, period, whether 
as a competitor in the Tournament, or over Hermione - the two have 
naturally come together.

I don't think Rita Skeeter thought much about Harry and Hermione's 
relationship.  The Slytherins were feeding her stories, and we know 
what a low opinion Draco has of Hermione's appearance - he probably 
thought it would embarass Harry to be linked to Hermione that way.  
Rita was probably looking around for a likely candidate for a love 
interest, and realised that Hermione is really the only girl Harry is 
close to.  The Krum thing was probably just a bonus.

> Like Heidi said, some of us think the fact that she kissed Harry at 
the
> end of GoF could be a signal that she has romantic interest in 
Harry.
I read this as being sympathetic and concerned, even motherly, which 
she always has had a tendancy to do with both Harry and Ron.     
Afterall, Voldemort is back, Harry has just had to go through a great 
deal, none of them know what is going to happen over the summer - and 
Harry is the one most at risk.  It seemed to me a natural action.  
(But please don't beat me up over this, I'm not objecting to H/H, 
just think the other is more likely).


> I heavily dispute the notion that Ginny is growing into a stronger
> character.  She's still actively excluded from the Trio.  She gets 
very
> little development or "on-screen time" in GoF (a tad more than PoA 
but
> then, what would it take?).  What is Ginny's "worth"?  We don't know
> hardly anything about her.  She's the most undeveloped Weasley 
character
> at this point.  All we know is that she's chatty at home but 
hopelessly
> shy around Harry.  She was Riddle's pawn/victim in CoS.  What else 
do we
> really know about Ginny?  We don't even know who she hangs around 
with
> (we know the twins' best friend is Lee and that Fred has some sort 
of
> relationship with Angelina).  I maintain we know next to nothing 
about
> Ginny.  Sorry, but I can't get behind the H/G ship at all without 
*alot*
> more info on little Ginny.  Being a Weasley is not enough in my mind
> (yeah, I know ... I just lost any shot of ever joining W.A.I.L.,
> right?).  <g>

As to Ginny Weaseley again, I still think her small appearances are 
telling.  I appreciate that she isn't part of the trio, but that is 
more to Ron and Harry's perception of her than Hermione's.  I think 
that Ginny is there behind the scenes as someone that Hermione talks 
to and confides in - (we know Hermione doesn't have much time for the 
girls in her own year) for instance, Ginny knew who Hermione's date 
was.

Catherine




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Tue Mar 27 17:31:32 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 17:31:32 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys/ Ginny Weasley
In-Reply-To: <99qhan+n0dp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99qipk+9rgg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15287

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> 
Catherine: Regarding Krum, his jealousy of Harry is understandable, 
whether  founded or not.  Harry is his rival in the tournament, he 
knows  Hermione is trying to help Harry and wants him to win, and he 
> probably can't get past the idea of Harry's fame and status.  It is 
> highly unlikely that Krum even noticed Ron's existence, apart from 
> his being Harry's friend.  

I don't think it's Harry's fame and status so much that concern Krum. 
It's partly the Skeeter article and partly the fact that, as he says, 
Hermione talks about Harry all the time. Perhaps if she talked about 
Ron all the time he might be more aware of Ron's existence.


Catherine: As to Ginny Weaseley again, I still think her small 
appearances are 
  telling.  I appreciate that she isn't part of the trio, but that is 
 more to Ron and Harry's perception of her than Hermione's.  I think 
 that Ginny is there behind the scenes as someone that Hermione talks 
> to and confides in - (we know Hermione doesn't have much time for 
the  girls in her own year) for instance, Ginny knew who Hermione's 
date   was.


Really? I've never gotten any sense that Hermione and Ginny were in 
any way close, and have always felt a little bad for Hermione that 
she doesn't have female friends. I don't get the slightest sense that 
she confides in Ginny -- there's never been a single scene in which 
we see her hanging out with Ginny casually and for fun; she never 
sits with her at meals or in the common room or the library. I think 
Harry and Ron are her friends and while she's friendly with Ginny, I 
don't think they're close. I'm not too surprised that Ginny knew who 
Hermione's date was; I don't think Hermione actually meant it to be a 
big secret until Ron started being a twit to her about the Ball, 
*then* she decided to be close-lipped about it.
 I have to agree with Penny. Ginny's short appearances show her to be 
a kind person, but not in any way strong. I don't mean to disparage 
Ginny, I *wish* she was a stronger character and have always read the 
books with an eye to (and a hope for) her further development. So far 
the only thing she ever did that was even slightly integral to the 
plot was to be Tom Riddle's victim. I hope that changes in future 
books.

I'll just let Penny cover the rest; she's better at this than me.

Cassie

Who won't be getting into W.A.I.L. any time soon either. <g>




From monika at darwin.inka.de  Tue Mar 27 17:54:27 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:54:27 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's friend - Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <99p4c4+2f5u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKIEOECBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 15288



> -----Original Message-----
> From: MMMfanfic at hotmail.com [mailto:MMMfanfic at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 6:19 AM
> To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's friend - Snape's grudge

> Ah, it's one thing for Dumbledore to ask for it and another thing for 
> Snape to keep his word.  The big question is why did Snape stay 
> silent?  Remember we are talking about a future DE here, who probably 
> would have no hesistation in irritating and thwarting Dumbledore.

Maybe Snape wanted to finish school, too? Even as a Death Eater
you should have some magical education. I also think that Dumbledore
has a distinct method to teach his students, he wouldn't menace
to punish them but rather give one of his wise advices that will
even make people like Snape keep their word. On the other hand
I think that Snape absolutely does have some sort of honor, and
I believe that he wouldn't break his word. It is true that I don't like
him, but I recognize that he has some undeniable qualities. And
don't forget that he is obsessed with rules, so he won't break them.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Mar 27 18:10:28 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:10:28 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys/ Ginny Weasley
In-Reply-To: <99qipk+9rgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ql2k+cc30@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15289



Cassie wrote:
> I don't think it's Harry's fame and status so much that concern 
Krum. It's partly the Skeeter article and partly the fact that, as he 
says, Hermione talks about Harry all the time. Perhaps if she talked 
about Ron all the time he might be more aware of Ron's existence.

Sure, although if you're making conversation with someone you don't 
know very well, what do you talk about? Things you might have in 
common. Harry is something in common between Viktor and Hermione; Ron 
isn't. 

Cassie also wrote:

> I'm not too surprised that Ginny knew who 
> Hermione's date was; I don't think Hermione actually meant it to be 
> a big secret until Ron started being a twit to her about the Ball, 
> *then* she decided to be close-lipped about it.

Maybe not, and you're right, there isn't canon evidence that Hermione 
is tight with Ginny, but Catherine does make a good point - Ginny 
knows about Hermione's date, but Lavender and Pavarti don't. Of 
course, if it wasn't meant to be a secret then there are reasons they 
might not know (the simplest - they didn't get around to asking 
before she decided not to tell anyone else), but it does seem that 
Hermione might have told Ginny about the date in confidence and did 
intend to keep it a secret.

2 cents,
B






From editor at texas.net  Tue Mar 27 18:12:14 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:12:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Young Snape - H/N - Mrs Figg
References: <99q5a0+kb9j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC0D7FE.BB3B4AC6@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15290

MMMfanfic at hotmail.com wrote:

> Well, then we agree to disagree then.
> My reasoning of why Dumbledore can't expel Snape is the following:
> It's known that werewolves are dangerous and the parents will be happy
> if someone blew the whistle -- not withstanding the fact that Lupin is
> not particularly dangerous.

I have to know where you get this. Lupin, as a werewolf, by definition
is dangerous. Dangerous is an understatement--at the point in time when
Lupin was a student, it was not only incurable but uncontrollable.

> No, I'm not ignoring the fact that Dumbledore can expel him but he has
> to have a very, very good reason such as the death or serious injury
> to a fellow student.

We have no examples in canon for the minimum reason necessary to expel a
student. You're probably right, but phrased as "grave concerns" or
something, and approved by the Board, any reason would probably do.

> May be it's because I am younger and still remember how school and
> punishment works. There's a due process involving expulsion because as
> you mentioned, there are grave consequences and they have to make sure
> everyone is being treated fairly.

You remember Muggle school (or I am intensely jealous). Several posts on
the legal system of the wizarding world seem to indicate that it is less
concerned with due process, at least in some instances, than we are.

> I'm questioning whether Snape's 'a good Potions teacher' but somehow,
> I always feel there are more between Snape and Dumbledore than reveal
> to us.

Which makes this postulated adversarial, threat-based theory unlikely,
in my opinion.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Tue Mar 27 18:14:32 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:14:32 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hi, I'm new/ Harry's relatives hidden by Fidelius-  charm
References: <99q6na+o67l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC0D888.494F048@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15291

meckelburg at foni.net wrote:

> After I read PoA I thought Harry might have some more family, only
> hidden by the fidelius-charm. If James or Lilly were the keepers of
> secret, then nobody else will know, now that they're dead.

Good point. Interesting thought. Depending on why Voldemort was after
Harry--if it was because he's the last whatever--it makes sense for the
families to have hidden. But Dumbledore told Harry that he had known his
father very well, both in and after school, and it seems likely to me
that Dumbledore would know at least of their existence. And he says the
Dursleys are it.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hfakhro at nyc.rr.com  Tue Mar 27 18:18:00 2001
From: hfakhro at nyc.rr.com (hfakhro at nyc.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:18:00 -0000
Subject: 3 posts including Re: B P transcript Harry getting killed off
In-Reply-To: <99qdqg+8h1n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99qlgo+ro6u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15292

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rita Winston" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> I'm ruining the Threading by combining posts, here's the first one:
> 
> IIRC around the time of the Blue Peter interview, one or a few 
people 
> said something about now having a date certain for when James and 
> Lily were in school. I want to know about that and haven't been 
able 
> to think of a unique enough word to search the egroup archive 
> with.
> 

Well there is an interview with Rowling at 
http://www.hpgalleries.com/c118.htm
and she says that Snape is 35 or 36, so if he's the same age as James 
and Lily, as he is presumed to be, then we can figure out the dates 
of their attendance at Hogwarts.




From andeinmn at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 18:42:07 2001
From: andeinmn at aol.com (andeinmn at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:42:07 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and James alive?
Message-ID: <c8.1258f294.27f238ff@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15293

Catherine writes:

>  And leading on to why some people 
>  become ghosts, and others don't - those that do all have one thing in 
>  common...violent deaths.

Actually, we can't even say that.  Poor Professor Binns simply left his body 
behind one morning!

Andrea



From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Tue Mar 27 18:45:30 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:45:30 -0000
Subject: Lily and James alive?
In-Reply-To: <99q85q+fgkg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99qn4a+4ou0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15294


> The only people who came out of V's wand were people who were 
> killed.  V had just previously used his wand to torture Harry and 
one 
> of the Death Eaters, and this didn't come out during the Priori 
> Incantatum, 

Just screams (echos of the torture)

  And leading on to why some people 
> become ghosts, and others don't - those that do all have one thing 
in 
> common...violent deaths.
> 


Errm,  Professor Binns?


I don't think the Potters are alive either.

Florence.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 27 18:45:55 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:45:55 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys/ Ginny Weasley
References: <99qhan+n0dp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC0DFE3.D33C42C4@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15295

Hi --

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Sorry to labour over this, but in that case, why is Hermione so
> furious with Ron and not Harry, when HP is behaving in just the same
> way?  It is Ron she is mad with for not noticing that she's a girl,
> not Harry.

Harry isn't behaving the same way at all.  You have to look at the
context of Hermione's comments when she finds out that they've both been
turned down by their first choices.  Back up to pages 394-95 in GoF (US
edition) -- Ron is the one who makes the remark about not wanting to get
stuck with a pair of trolls.  That entire spat is between Ron and
Hermione.  Harry doesn't say a single word in that scene; he's just a
bystander.  Ron is the one who made the offensive "troll" comment.  So,
naturally, she vents at *Ron* and not Harry when she finds out that he's
been rejected by his date.  IMO, she's self-satisfied and probably
giggling on the inside that *she* has a date, and "Mr. High & Mighty, I
Don't want to be Stuck Going with a 'Troll' Ron Weasley" has *no* date.
She's also, IMO, not mad because he hadn't noticed she was a girl.  She
was mad because he wanted the prettiest girl he could find and then when
he wasted too much time & got rejected to boot, he suddenly turned to
"good old Hermione."

> I also think that she was spending time with Harry because she
> was being her normal supportive self (helping with summoning charms
> etc.)  Where is the evidence that she spends less time with Ron?

Well, she eats all her meals with Harry; they walk to class together;
they sit in class together; they leave class together -- there is no
mention of her spending much time with Ron.  She is shown occasionally
trying to make small talk while sitting between them early-on in the
fight, but then it seems as though she gives up trying to get them to
make up & stays with Harry while Ron hangs out with the twins and Dean &
Seamus.  This could be just a matter of it being Harry's POV though.

> She is more mediator than on Harry's side;  she has to spell it out to
>
> Harry exactly what Ron's problem is and she makes it clear that she
> is very unhappy about the situation and wants Harry to sort it out
> (which he won't).

Don't you think it likely then that she also spelled out Harry's problem
to Ron & was met with stubborn resistance from Ron's side as well?

> He sees Harry as a rival, period, whether as a competitor in the
> Tournament, or over Hermione - the two have naturally come together.

Bbennett added:

> Cassie: I don't think it's Harry's fame and status so much that concern
> Krum. It's partly the Skeeter article and partly the fact that, as he
> says, Hermione talks about Harry all the time. Perhaps if she talked
> about Ron all the time he might be more aware of Ron's existence.
>
> Bbennett: Sure, although if you're making conversation with someone you don't
> know very well, what do you talk about? Things you might have in
> common. Harry is something in common between Viktor and Hermione; Ron
> isn't.
>

Yes, you might use some common interest to get conversation going within
a new relationship.  That might explain the initial subject of Harry
coming up in their conversations.  But, Krum says that Hermione talks
about Harry "all the time."  That's going above & beyond a
conversation-starter, isn't it?

Like Cassie, I don't see that Krum is hung up on Harry's status as a
rival in the Tournament.  He knows him better than Ron to be sure (and
you're right, I don't have the impression that Krum has noticed Ron at
all).  But, if he hasn't noticed Ron at all, doesn't this indicate that
Hermione isn't talking about Ron at all?  Oh, how I wish Harry had said,
"Well, I'm sure she talks about Ron all the time too."  Krum's response
would have been very telling!  Alas.

> Catherine again: I read this as being sympathetic and concerned, even
> motherly, which she always has had a tendancy to do with both Harry
> and Ron.

Yes, that's one interpretation.  But, surely when you're talking about a
kiss -- there's more than one interpretation?  I put another spin on it,
that's all.  :--)

> As to Ginny Weaseley again, I still think her small appearances are
> telling.  I appreciate that she isn't part of the trio, but that is
> more to Ron and Harry's perception of her than Hermione's.  I think
> that Ginny is there behind the scenes as someone that Hermione talks
> to and confides in - (we know Hermione doesn't have much time for the
> girls in her own year) for instance, Ginny knew who Hermione's date
> was.

What about this:  Neville told Ginny that he'd already asked Hermione
but that she'd turned him down because she already had a date.  That was
a very up-front thing for Neville to do btw (no real reason he needed to
tell Ginny that she wasn't his first choice, is there?).  Anyway .... I
would imagine Ginny would have then gone to Hermione & asked her about
it all.  Hermione wouldn't have necessarily wanted to be secretive in
this particular instance.  She might have decided to come clean based on
the dynamics of the situation.  In other words, it's possible that
Hermione didn't necessarily intend to confide the identity of her date
to Ginny but felt some pressure to do so because of Neville asking Ginny
to go in place of her.

We do see Ginny eating breakfast with Hermione one morning.  Harry waits
until they're done before whisking Hermione off for a long walk around
the lake.  :--)

But, other than that, I don't see much evidence of a great Ginny &
Hermione friendship.  It is possible, and it's a point I've brought up
in defense of the lack of female/female bonding arguments.  Harry's POV
can be limiting.  But .... I don't see strong evidence of a Ginny & Herm
friendship at this point.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From margdean at erols.com  Tue Mar 27 19:01:26 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:01:26 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry getting killed off
References: <00dc01c0b6d2$cfbe0c60$7614a3d1@doreen> <3AC0C024.76B975E@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3AC0E386.773F918E@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15296

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
> 
> Hi --
> 
> Doreen wrote:
> 
> > It really disturbs me that JKR has said before that she would never
> > kill off Ron Weasley, Harry's best friend, but she has teased several
> > times about, "How do we know that Harry will survive the series?"
> > Does anyone else have a problem with this?
> 
> Actually, she hasn't said "never" with respect to killing off Ron.
> She's said that she finds it funny that kids are always asking her not
> to kill off Ron.  She said they know enough to recognize that the hero's
> best friend often dies.  She's bothered by the fact that noone seems to
> concerned about whether Hermione will die or not.  Everyone just assumes
> she'll be fine.

At the risk of starting up the gender-equality discussion all
over again, I suspect this is because  Hermione is female. 
Heroines and/or love interests are =much= less likely to die than
(male) heroes' (male) best friends.
 
Note that I'm talking about reader expectations here, not any
assumptions about what JKR might or might not do!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>





From editor at texas.net  Tue Mar 27 18:55:41 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:55:41 -0600
Subject: Amanda needs a life (Priori Incantatem) was Lily and James alive?
References: <99q85q+fgkg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC0E22D.C9757E6B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15297

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> The only people who came out of V's wand were people who were killed.
> V had just previously used his wand to torture Harry and one of the
> Death Eaters, and this didn't come out during the Priori Incantatum,

Yes it did. There were faint screams, echoes of the Cruciatus spell.

Well. Having no life at all, and not wanting to do the dishes, I sat
here with GoF and listed the things that came from Voldemort's wand once
the Priori Incantatem effect started. Then I went backwards (for a ways)
and matched them with the spells that his wand had done. Here's the
breakdown.

The spells that were cast are in brackets [ ]. The effects are numbered.
The list, confusingly, starts with spells that show no effect, but as we
go backward through the spells we start to see the echoes.

[Avada Kedavra--spell that linked with Harry's Expelliarmus]--current
spell, would show no echo

[Imperius Curse, 2nd time--Harry won't answer] would not have an audible
or visible echo
[Cruciatus Curse, 2nd time]--should be screams
[Imperius Curse, 1st time--Harry bows] would be no audible or visible
echo]
[Cruciatus Curse, 1st time, Harry] 1. Echoing screams of pain

NOTE: Conceivably, the "echoing screams of pain" covered both these
Cruciatus curses, since the Imperius Curses would show no effect.
[Wormtail's new prosthesis] 2. Smoky hand
[Death Eater Avery who asked for forgiveness like an idiot] 3. Shouts of
pain
[Avada Kedavra] 4. Cedric

[Spells cast by Wormtail that should have visible echoes:
--step one of the three-step Voldemort construction spell, to obtain
"bone of the father" from the grave
--flames under the cauldron by Wormtail
--ropes are conjured by Wormtail to tie Harry]

[Who'd Voldemort torture between Frank Bryce and the graveyard scene?]
5. Screams of pain
[Avada Kedavra] 6. Frank Bryce
[Avada Kedavra] 7. Bertha Jorkins
[Avada Kedavra] 8. James (correctly Lily)
[Avada Kedavra] 9. Lily (correctly James)
connection is broken soon thereafter

I don't think Wormtail has a wand of his own yet, since he kills Cedric
with Voldemort's. If he had Voldemort's in his hand to kill Cedric, he
*must* have used the same wand a couple of seconds later to make the
ropes, flames, and extract the bone from the grave, so perhaps these not
showing up is a Flint.

Wormtail got the bone from the grave, then presumably stuck Voldemort's
wand into the robes he had ready for him, since he doesn't use a wand
again, and Voldemort pulls his wand out of his robes after he's dressed.

Wormtail hasn't been using Harry's, since when Voldemort tells him to
give Harry back his wand, Wormtail retrieves it from beside Cedric's
body, where it has been lying.

So it looks like there's a few spells that *should* have had visible
echoes that weren't mentioned, but they were pretty minor to the plot
and wouldn't have added to the scene the way eerie screams of pain do.
Conceivably, some P.I. effects were missed by Harry, since there was
rather a lot going on. [oh no! the Harry's Point of View Dodge again!
aaaaaa!]

And before someone asks--We already know that Priori Incantatem, both
the spell and the effect, seem to apply to the wand, not the wielder.
The spell, which produces an echo of the last spell cast, brought the
echo-Dark Mark from Harry's wand, even though Harry hadn't cast the
spell. The effect is more profound and produces echoes of apparently all
prior spells until the connection is broken. But it must operate the
same way, since it's pretty clear that Wormtail was the wielder for
Cedric, Frank, and Bertha, and they showed up for Voldemort's wand.

> Also, hasn't this mistake in order been corrected in the later
> reprints?

I've heard this is the case; haven't seen one.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Tue Mar 27 19:06:08 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:06:08 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
In-Reply-To: <99p638+kj1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99qob0+nqhs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15298

 
> My guess is that Mrs. Figg *offered* to take care of Harry in the 
> beginning -- for free. 

I think Dumbledore may have offered her services to the Dursleys in 
the 'letter that explained everything'.  

> 2. She had to be able to drop her life and go do this. The poor 
witch 
> has spent how many years as a Muggle? 

I still think she's a squib and had to live like this anyway.


> 
> And by the way . . . why *couldn't* she let him in on anything? 

The Dursleys asked her not to?  And only used her once a year just in 
case.

 
> if she was communicating with Dumbledore all this time, why on Earth 
> didn't Hagrid know that Harry was completely clueless about his 
> parentage? 

Dumbledore guessed, but only hinted to Hagrid that there might be 
trouble - after all the Dursleys may have been waiting until nearer 
the time to tell him.


You'd think that around Harry's ninth birthday or so, 
Mrs. 
> Figg might have owled Dumbledore and said something like, "You 
> know . . . the Potter boy really has no idea about what he is. The 
> invitation from Hogwarts will probably be a bit of a shock. Do you 
> think I should whip out the *real* photo albums and have a chat with 
> him next time the Muggles send him over?" 

I expect she did, but Dumbledore had to respect the Dursleys choices 
here or they might have refused to contine to look after him.  Of 
course Mrs Figg may have been going to talk to Harry on Dudleys 
birthday just before the Hogwarts invite, but couldn't because she 
broke her leg.  (If she IS a witch why didn't she get this fixed up 
magically?)

Florence




From editor at texas.net  Tue Mar 27 19:08:34 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:08:34 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: What Snape knows; and what he's asked to do
References: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC07D5@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <3AC0E531.36AA878B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15299

"Hillman, Lee" wrote:

> I feel it's entirely likely that Snape will face a great deal of pain
> and tribulation getting back into the DE's good graces,

It's not their good graces he has to worry about. It's Voldemort's.

> but certainly he is not the only DE to have gone to lengths to survive
> in the wake of V's rise and fall. It's well within the realm of
> possibility that he can gloss over the little bits of information he
> did pass to Dumbledore as "insignificant," since who knows the extent
> to which his work as a mole caused DE attacks to fail?

If Voldemort knows Snape was spying, Snape can cover by saying he
planted the seeds of doubt in James' mind about Sirius, so that James
switched to Peter, so that Snape had actually been doing Voldemort's
work and delivered the Potters to him, indirectly. See how well he did
it? ("When you try to deceive someone like Dumbledore, you have to do it
well, I see it even convinced you, my lord...")

> He can cite other people's maneuvers to cover their butts, not the
> least of whom is Lucius Malfoy, who convinced everyone he was acting
> under the Imperius curse for years (yeah, right).

And Voldemort seems to overlook it when "faithful" servants deny him,
because he understands the whole "means to an end" thing. It's when the
end was anything but Voldemort that he objects. If Snape can convince
Voldemort he was lying low and getting in a good position (his current
one at Hogwarts, trusted by Dumbledore) to help Voldemort when he
returned ("of course I knew you would rise again, Master, who could have
doubted it? I was preparing for the day you returned, so that I could be
of use to you")

> Assuming that Snape has the capability to grovel, worm, bully, and lie
> his way back in, he still won't have an easy time of it.

I imagine it's going to take some strength of mind or integrity of inner
self not to slip and let any duplicitousness be seen, too, especially
under Imperius spells cast by a potent will like Voldemort's. Let's hope
V. doesn't ask Snape to take Veritaserum.

> It's likely that he will not be trusted; the other DE's will only
> accept his return grudgingly, and certainly he's in for a few
> Cruciatus curses aimed his way.

The other D.E.'s probably have more to worry about than Snape. Not
forgetting that any questions after Voldemort says okay will likely be
interpreted as treason, I think the D.E.s are probably a bit concerned
with their leader's abilities and/or strength now that Harry escaped
*again.* And trust has not evidently been a big factor binding together
the big, happy D.E. family, anyway.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bafoster at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 27 19:14:33 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:14:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Corrected page of GoF (Priori Incantatem)
References: <99q85q+fgkg@eGroups.com> <3AC0E22D.C9757E6B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3AC0E699.BBBAC24F@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15300



Amanda Lewanski wrote:
> 
> > Also, hasn't this mistake in order been corrected in the later
> > reprints?
> 
> I've heard this is the case; haven't seen one.
> 
> --Amanda
> 

This is the corrected text of GoF, as it was posted by someone to the
PoU list a while back (sorry, can't remember who!):
----
If ever Harry might have released his wand from shock, it would have
been 
then, but instinct kept him cluthching his wand tightly, so that the
thread 
of golden light remained unbroken, even though the thick gray ghost of
Cedric 
Diggory (was it a ghost? it looked so solid) emerged in its entirety
from the 
end of Voldemort's wand, as though it were squeezing itself out of a
very 
narrow tunnel... and this shade of Cedric stood up, and looked up
and down the golden thread of light, and spoke.
    "Hold on Harry," it said.  Its voice was distant and echoing.  Harry 
looked at Voldemort... his wide red eyes were still shocked... he had no
more 
expected this than Harry had... and, very dimly, Harry heard the
frightened 
yells of the Death Eaters, prowling around the edges of the golden dome...
    More screams of pain from the wand... and then something else
emerged 
form its tip... the dense shadow of a second head, quickly followed by
arms 
and torso... and old man Harry had seen only in a dream was now pushing 
himself out of the end of the wand just as Cedric had done... and his
ghost, 
or his shadow, or whatever it was, fell next to Cedric's, and surveyed
Harry 
and Voldemort, and the golden web, and the connected wands, with mild 
surprise,
leaning on his walking stick....
    "He was a real wizard, then?" the old man said, his eyes on
Voldemort. 
"Killed me, that one did.... You fight him, boy..."   But already, yet 
another head was emerging... and this head, gray as a smokey statue, was
a 
woman's.... Harry, both arms shaking now as he fought to keep his wand
still, 
saw her drop to the ground and straighten up like the others, staring....
    The shadow of Bertha Jorkins surveyed the battle before her with
wide 
eyes.   "Don't let go, now!" she cried, and her voice echoed like
Cedric's as 
though from very far away.  "Don't let him get you, Harry -- don't let go!"
    She and the other two shadowy figures began to pace around the inner
wall 
of the golden web, while the Death Eaters flitted around the outside of
it... 
and Voldemort's dead victims whispered as the circled the duelers,
whispered 
words of encouragement to Harry, and hissed words Harry couldn't hear to 
Voldemort.
    And now another head was emerging from the tip of Voldemort's
wand... and 
Harry knew when he saw it who it would be... he knew, as though he had 
expected it from the moment when Cedric had appeared from the wand..
knew, 
because the woman was the one he'd thought of more than any other tonight....
    The smoky shadow of a young woman with long hair fell to the ground
as 
Bertha had done, straightened up, and looked at him... and Harry, his
arms 
shaking madly now, looked back into the ghostly face of his mother.
    "Your father's coming..." she said quietly.  "Hold on for your
father.. 
it will be all right.. hold on...."
    And he came.. first his head, then his body.. tall and untidy-haired
like 
Harry, the smoky, shadowy form of James Postter blossomed for the end of 
Voldemort's wand, fell to the ground, and straightened like his wife. 
He 
walked close to Harry, looking down at him, and he spoke in the same
distant, 
echoing voice as the others, but quietly, so that Voldemort, his face
now 
livid with fear as his victims prowled around him, could not hear....
    "When the connection is broken, we will linger for ony moments....
but we 
will give you time... you must get to the Portkey, it will return you to 
Hogwats... do you understand Harry?"
-----

I find the switch to be fairly weak myself, and would have greatly
preferred JKR to explain James coming out first some other way, but
there you go.

Barbara :)



From bafoster at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 27 19:16:14 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:16:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
References: <99qob0+nqhs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC0E6FE.63443B34@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15301



fgcjnk at btinternet.com wrote:
> > 2. She had to be able to drop her life and go do this. The poor
> witch
> > has spent how many years as a Muggle?
> 
> I still think she's a squib and had to live like this anyway.

But if she's a Squib, she wouldn't be useful to Dumbledore and Co, and
thus he wouldn't ask Sirius to find her at the end of GoF.  That's my
opinion, anyway. :)

Barbara :)

> 
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Tue Mar 27 19:27:13 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:27:13 -0000
Subject: Character Summary: Hermione Granger/SHIP
In-Reply-To: <99qcg2+i2dj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99qpih+aqhj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15302

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> -Love2write wrote:
> > 
>  However, I found it distinctly ominous that in PoA when Harry 
> > pictures the scene between Sirius in Pettigrew in the street after 
> he 
> > finds out that Sirius "betrayed" his parents, he pictures Peter as 
> > looking like Neville. Could have just been a convenient 
comparison, 
> > but it could also have been some nice foreshadowing. 
> 
> Could be--it's certainly the kind of thing JKR does--but at the 
time, 


Neville DID grass to Malfoy, when Harry passed out on the train with 
the dementors though.  I think JKR IS showing us that Neville and 
Peter do have similar characters.  I'm thinking Neville will be 
tempted to the dark side but will (hopefully) show his mettle and 
resist.  But it could go either way.

Florence




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Tue Mar 27 19:35:59 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:35:59 -0000
Subject: Lily's friend - Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKIEOECBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>
Message-ID: <99qq2v+qni0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15303

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Monika Huebner" <monika at d...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: MMMfanfic at h... [mailto:MMMfanfic at h...]
> > Ah, it's one thing for Dumbledore to ask for it and another thing 
for 
> > Snape to keep his word.  The big question is why did Snape stay 
> > silent?  Remember we are talking about a future DE here, who 
probably 
> > would have no hesistation in irritating and thwarting Dumbledore.
> 
> Maybe Snape wanted to finish school, too? Even as a Death Eater
> you should have some magical education. I also think that Dumbledore
> has a distinct method to teach his students, he wouldn't menace
> to punish them but rather give one of his wise advices that will
> even make people like Snape keep their word. On the other hand
> I think that Snape absolutely does have some sort of honor, and
> I believe that he wouldn't break his word. It is true that I don't 
like
> him, but I recognize that he has some undeniable qualities. And
> don't forget that he is obsessed with rules, so he won't break them.
> 
More evidence maybe that Snape has ALWAYS been loyal to Dumbledore and 
only became a DE to infiltrate the dark side, rather than that he 
started out bad but repented and then became a spy?

Florence

Florence




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 27 19:40:13 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:40:13 -0000
Subject: Summary  Priori spells was Amanda needs a life 
In-Reply-To: <3AC0E22D.C9757E6B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99qqat+kos6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15304

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
An excellent summary of the spells

> 
> [Who'd Voldemort torture between Frank Bryce and the graveyard scene?]
 It was Wormtail -- Harry saw it in the dream he had while he was in 
Trelawney's classroom GOF ch 29..."one more little reminder why I will 
not tolerate another blunder from you."
As for why there were no screams of pain from the first cruciatus curse 
Harry suffered..
THEORY  he was gagged. END THEORY

It's possible that Wormtail was able to use Bertha Jorkins' wand to do 
the lesser conjuring (not the AK) and that's why we don't see echoes of 
it. ...
THEORY: Wormie uses Voldie's wand to kill Cedric, leaves that 
wand with the bundle of robes that has proto-Voldie in it, then uses 
the lesser wand, Bertha's, for everything else. END THEORY

Pippin





From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Mar 27 19:40:22 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:40:22 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys
In-Reply-To: <3AC0DFE3.D33C42C4@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99qqb6+hajl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15305

Penny said:
> Yes, you might use some common interest to get conversation going 
within a new relationship.  That might explain the initial subject of 
Harry coming up in their conversations.  But, Krum says that Hermione 
talks about Harry "all the time."  That's going above & beyond a
conversation-starter, isn't it?>

It may be above and beyond a conversation starter if you've moved
on to friendship; it might not be if you know the person likes you 
romantically, you don't return the feelings, and you're trying to
be friendly and offer polite conversation while keeping your 
distance. We really don't know what Hermione thinks of Viktor,
but if she likes him yet has no romantic interest in him and wants to 
keep a line drawn between them, then sure, I could see her continuing 
to bring up Harry, a point in common, as a distraction 
to stop their conversation from turning more personal. 

B, who used just such a conversational tactic last week when friends 
introduced her to a nice young gentleman in whom she had no romantic 
interest but did not wish to offend




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Tue Mar 27 19:46:52 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:46:52 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
In-Reply-To: <3AC0E6FE.63443B34@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <99qqnc+v1ju@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15306

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Barbara Foster Williams <bafoster at m...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> fgcjnk at b... wrote:
> > > 2. She had to be able to drop her life and go do this. The poor
> > witch
> > > has spent how many years as a Muggle?
> > 
> > I still think she's a squib and had to live like this anyway.
> 
> But if she's a Squib, she wouldn't be useful to Dumbledore and Co, 
and
> thus he wouldn't ask Sirius to find her at the end of GoF.  That's 
my
> opinion, anyway. :)
> 
> Barbara :)
> 

No,  Dumbledore knows he needs ALL the help he can get.  Giants, house 
elves, squibs and muggles all have their uses limited in various ways 
no doubt.  I don't think Dumbledore has any predudices against squibs 
- he employs Filch and he's an unpleasant character as well.

Florence




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 27 19:47:03 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:47:03 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys
In-Reply-To: <99qqb6+hajl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99qqnn+104d0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15307

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote:
> Penny said:
> > Yes, you might use some common interest to get conversation going 
> within a new relationship.  That might explain the initial subject of 
> Harry coming up in their conversations.  But, Krum says that Hermione 
> talks about Harry "all the time."  That's going above & beyond a
> conversation-starter, isn't it?>
> 
> It may be above and beyond a conversation starter if you've moved
> on to friendship; it might not be if you know the person likes you 
> romantically, you don't return the feelings, and you're trying to
> be friendly and offer polite conversation while keeping your 
> distance. We really don't know what Hermione thinks of Viktor,
> but if she likes him yet has no romantic interest in him and wants to 
> keep a line drawn between them, then sure, I could see her continuing 
> to bring up Harry, a point in common, as a distraction 
> to stop their conversation from turning more personal. 
	
	If Hermione does have a romantic interest in Ron, that would be a 
reason *not* to talk about him with Viktor, IMHO. Harry might seem like 
a much safer topic.
Pippin





From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Tue Mar 27 19:53:01 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:53:01 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys
In-Reply-To: <99qqb6+hajl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99qr2t+ghu3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15308

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., bbennett at j... wrote:

> It may be above and beyond a conversation starter if you've moved
> on to friendship; it might not be if you know the person likes you 
> romantically, you don't return the feelings, and you're trying to
> be friendly and offer polite conversation while keeping your 
> distance. We really don't know what Hermione thinks of Viktor,
> but if she likes him yet has no romantic interest in him and wants 
to   keep a line drawn between them, then sure, I could see her 
continuing  to bring up Harry, a point in common, as a distraction 
> to stop their conversation from turning more personal. 
> B, who used just such a conversational tactic last week when 
friends  introduced her to a nice young gentleman in whom she had no 
romantic  interest but did not wish to offend.



What, you talked to him non-stop about Harry? How did he take it? <g>

Hermione might indeed have been trying to keep their conversation 
from becoming more personal. It is no more or less likely than that 
she was doing it because she thinks about Harry a lot, and so he 
coems up in conversation; maybe it was tied in with her worry about 
Harry and the Tournament, which would be brought home to her because 
Viktor is a Champion; maybe she kept talking about Ron but Krum only 
responded "Who is this Ron? I know no Ron" and she became 
disheartened and moved to other topics; maybe she's madly in love 
with Neville and was trying to deflect Viktor's attention onto Harry 
so that when he found out her heart lay elsewhere, he wouldn't pound 
Neville into the ground. B. is now wondering if Cassie has a point, 
and Cassie really doesn't, except that yet again due to Harry's POV 
we really have no idea why Hermione talks about Harry so often to 
Krum. Alas! I did think it was significant upon my first read, but 
that's subjective.


Now I am going to go and sit with Heidi in the Draco/Hermione study 
room, because that's my happy place. (And Heidi has a great take on 
Hermione's reaction to Ron's behavior at the Ball in "Surfeit of 
Curses". Plug, plug!)

Cassie





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Mar 27 19:55:01 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:55:01 -0000
Subject: Lily and James alive.
Message-ID: <99qr6l+p9ph@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15309

I forgot about Professor Binns.  Whoops!  But isn't he the exception 
to the rule?  Moaning Myrtle, Nearly Headless Nick, the Bloody 
Baron...
I still don't think that James and Lily are alive though.




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 27 19:56:30 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:56:30 -0000
Subject: Picking a Valentine nit (was Ginny/Girl Harry, yada, ...
In-Reply-To: <e0.12448fdd.27f11bf6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99qr9e+eviv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15310

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., morine10 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/26/01 1:42:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> moongirlk at y... writes:
> 
> 
> > And... if Lockhart 
> > didn't mean students could send them to each other, then why 
would 
> > Ginny be embarrassed?  If everyone knew that they were not from 
other 
> > students but only silly concoctions of Lockharts, then Draco's 
> > statement doesn't make any sense, and neither does Ginny's 
reaction.
> > 
> 
> I believe that she was embarrassed because Draco pointed out- to a 
hallway 
> full of students that she has crush on Harry.  Her reaction may 
have been odd 
> since she didn't send it, but she does like Harry, and well, she 
was in the 
> middle of a crisis at the time.  Her emotions were probably a bit 
on edge.
> 
But why would Draco say it?  He and everyone present would know it to 
be untrue, so it wouldn't even be a good tease.  And it still doesn't 
make sense that Harry, if he knew everyone was getting them, would 
feel the need to run away from one of these valentines.  It still 
seemse like a viable possibility, but I'm not sure that it explains 
things as well as Ginny actually having sent it. 

kimberly
unconvinced, but curious




From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 27 19:43:42 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:43:42 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Character Summary: Hermione Granger &  Sorting Hat Choices
References: <99no0g+trii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <014901c0b6f8$93f7a940$7614a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15311

> > 3. Any new thoughts on why she was sorted into Gryffindor rather
> than
> > Ravenclaw?

Caius Marcius wrote:

> One of the things a well-rounded education should provide is make
you
> aware of and allow you to develop those aspects of your character
> which have gone hitherto unnoticed (or under-noticed) by you.

<post full of excellent points snipped>

Yes, yes!  Hmmm..."me too" posts aren't kosher.  So I will take this
opportunity to add that I have loved every single filk you've posted
and only refrained from saying so 'cause I don't want the Mod Squad to
come after me.

In general, I think the Sorting encourages readers to look for aspects
of the characters that we don't see at first glance.  It would be very
boring if JKR had filled Gryffindor with a bunch of junior heroes.
The G. kids are the usual mix of brave and not-so-brave, talented and
not-so-talented, hardworking and not, etc. etc.  But each of them
harbors some kind of tremendous courage or potential for it, and we
have to look for it, knowing that it's there if the Sorting Hat says
so.

Hermione is not only very brave when it comes to physical danger, but
she has great integrity, which is another form of courage.  Sticking
by Neville, spelling out for Harry what Ron's problem is in GoF,
making herself unpopular with her activism--these all require a kind
of bravery as well, a kind that the books clearly want us to hold in
high regard.  (Dumbledore makes Neville, not Harry, the house hero in
PS/SS by letting his points be the ones that put Gryffindor over the
top, and Neville's accomplishment was integrity and the courage of his
convictions.)

There, that wasn't a "me too."

Amy Z
**********************************
I have often wondered if JKR has some sort of military background/connection
or information as to how they used to choose what field for which a new
recruit would be best suited. My father often remarked that one was never
put in an area that they had any talent for or knowledge of, but rather,
some area which they felt that they would never have chosen for themselves.
As it turned out, though, some of these Military choices were quite on the
mark.  ( one instance was a mechanical sort who was put in the galley
kitchen ... later became a very talented and well paid chef)

So, I would have to agree that the Sorting Hat takes all things into
consideration and places the student where the student will benefit the
most.

BTW I thought that Hermione was rather brave when it came to the potions
puzzle. If she had done it wrong, they could have been poisoned. There were
other instances where I thought she was brave... hesistant maybe, but
none-the-less brave.

Doreen the Corn Patch Witch






From nera at rconnect.com  Tue Mar 27 19:58:24 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:58:24 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Figg/Crookshanks
References: <F87nm1u2mQPoHEpxSfr000051ea@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c0b6f8$967d1ba0$7614a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15312

Indigo wrote:

>Plus, who'd take care of Figg's cats while she was away with
>Hermione? Wouldn't Hermione notice if her cat went AWOL during June,
>July, and August (so Mrs. Figg could be in Little Whinging to babysit
>Harry for the Dursleys)?
>
>I believe I'm sticking with the idea that Crookshanks is full or part
>kneazle, rather than Mrs. Figg


I don't know if anyone has said this yet... but I always imagined that those
cats weren't really cats, rather animagi that came to keep a watch on
Harry... or maybe witch paparazzi.  After all we know that Rita Skeeter
transforms herself into a beetle for her journalism career.  I thought Mrs.
Figg might have been a minion of Dumbledore... like an undercover witch to
keep the "extra eye" on Harry while he was growing up.

Signe Weasley
*****************************************
OK ... we have decided that Crookshanks can not be Arabella Figg since
Crookshanks is a male cat/kneazle and Arabella is female... and we "think"
that a male wizard/witch has to turn into a male animagi.

Crookshanks is probably not Arabella Figg because when Mrs. Figg is watching
Harry during the summer, Crookshanks is with Hermione.

I have not checked this on the timeline or with the books ... but I am going
to:

The first books talk about Mrs. Figg babysitting for Harry ... but .... but
... but...
has Mrs. Figg babysat for Harry SINCE Hermione got Crookshanks?

My other idea for this is that it is one of Mrs. Figgs MALE
cats/part-kneazles who was sent to the pet shop to become Hermione's pet.

OR ... Hermione DID recognize the kneazle for what it was ... and that is
why she chose it ... and maybe she just doesn't tell Harry & Ron everything
... like she didnt tell them about the time-turner until she needed to ...
and she didn't tell them about the capture of Rita Skeeter until she wanted
to...  There are several instances of Hermione wanting to thoroughly check
things out before she shared her information or ideas or plans.

Doreen the Corn Patch Witch
**********************************




From wr7238 at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar 27 19:43:56 2001
From: wr7238 at worldnet.att.net (Roy Mallett Jr)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:43:56 -0500
Subject: Harry Getting Killed
Message-ID: <000301c0b6fa$789ce000$ccf44e0c@v1r0g9>

No: HPFGUIDX 15313

I agree with Doreen_theCorn_Patch_Witch about having a problem with Harry being killed! My boys and I would all be upset if that were to happen! I don't get to often to get an a chance to comment with my busy household,but I made sure to get this into the group! Actually all the characters are what makes all this work in these great books! JKR's next 3 will be such a joy to add to this great series of stories. Not to have Harry continue will be a heartbreak on quite a lot of people. So this is a big problem with us. 
Wanda The Witch of Revere,Ma,USA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar 27 20:25:56 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:25:56 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys
References: <99qqnn+104d0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC0F754.335EB67E@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15314

Hi --

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> If Hermione does have a romantic interest in Ron, that would be a
> reason *not* to talk about him with Viktor, IMHO. Harry might seem
> like
> a much safer topic.

Krum didn't interpret it that way.  <vbg>

I see your point.  I guess it depends on how Hermione handles those
situations, and we don't really know.  If she considers Viktor just a
friend & has decided to try & ignore his feelings for her, she might
talk up the boy she is interested in (I know I did that with male
buddies at that age -- they would just roll their eyes everytime my
current interest's name came up!).  If she's trying to distance herself
from Viktor's romantic interest, then B makes a good point that maybe
she's using "safe Harry" as a shield & keeping her feelings for Ron to
herself.  But, she could also be talking up her true love interest in an
attempt to convey an indirect message to Viktor (that's how he
interprets her actions -- we know that).

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bohners at pobox.com  Tue Mar 27 20:40:08 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 15:40:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
References: <99qob0+nqhs@eGroups.com> <3AC0E6FE.63443B34@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <03b001c0b6fe$51b46860$b23bacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 15315

> > I still think she's a squib and had to live like this anyway.

> But if she's a Squib, she wouldn't be useful to Dumbledore and Co, and
> thus he wouldn't ask Sirius to find her at the end of GoF.  That's my
> opinion, anyway. :)

But how could a Squib have been two-time duelling champion at Hogwarts?  JKR
has confirmed that Mrs. Figg is the same as Arabella Figg.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Tue Mar 27 20:39:02 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 20:39:02 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
In-Reply-To: <03b001c0b6fe$51b46860$b23bacce@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <99qtp6+9sfi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15316

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" 
<bohners at p...> wrote:
> > > I still think she's a squib and had to live like this anyway.
> 
> > But if she's a Squib, she wouldn't be useful to Dumbledore and 
Co, and
> > thus he wouldn't ask Sirius to find her at the end of GoF.  
That's my
> > opinion, anyway. :)
> 
> But how could a Squib have been two-time duelling champion at 
Hogwarts?  JKR
> has confirmed that Mrs. Figg is the same as Arabella Figg.
> --
> Rebecca J. Bohner
> rebeccaj at p...
> http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj

I totally missed that...where did you read that Arabella Figg was 
duelling champion?  I'm obviously not reading as carefully as I 
thought!

Catherine 




From bbennett at joymail.com  Tue Mar 27 20:43:54 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 20:43:54 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys
In-Reply-To: <99qr2t+ghu3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99qu2a+l7pj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15317

>B, who used just such a conversational tactic last week when 
> friends  introduced her to a nice young gentleman in whom she had 
>no romantic  interest but did not wish to offend.

Cassie wrote:
> What, you talked to him non-stop about Harry? How did he take it? 
<g>

He said "Harry who?". Any wonder why I blew him off? <g>
 
>B. is now wondering if Cassie has a point, 
> and Cassie really doesn't, except that yet again due to Harry's POV 
> we really have no idea why Hermione talks about Harry so often to 
> Krum. Alas! I did think it was significant upon my first read, but 
> that's subjective.
 
I think it is significant; we just don't know how. As Pippin brought 
up, maybe she specifically didn't talk about Ron because she likes 
him, or maybe Harry just happens to be her favorite topic of 
conversation (he certainly comes up a lot in mine), or maybe she is 
misleading us all and has the hots for Neville (he has the potential 
to turn out well. Well, if he doesn't get killed). 

<sigh> I'm ready for the next book. 

B




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Tue Mar 27 20:56:27 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:56:27 -0800
Subject: Brigadoon,the True Story (Silly Post)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010327123341.0298e1b0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15318

The movie _Brigadoon_ is on right now.  Now I am someone
who likes to try to associate everything possible to Harry's
world, and when the old man (forget his name) is telling the history
of Brigadoon, he talks about how anxious they were to get rid of
"evil" witches.  This make me wonder if there's another side to the
story, which I outline below (I apologize _a priori_ to any
_Brigadoon_ fans here):

Brigadoon was a community of hard-line Muggles (sort of
the 18th century equivelent of Privet Drive) whose especially
hard-nosed and bigoted minister got wind of the fact that only
a few miles from their respectable community was a SCHOOL
FOR WITCHES AND WIZARDS!  So appalled was he
that he vowed to see to it that every evil, satan-worshipping
infidel at this wretched school was exterminated.

Shortly thereafter, a mob of Brigadoon Muggles bearing
torches and pitchforks stormed Hogsmeade and caused
the most hideous riot in a century, which would have resulted
in far more casualities if a gang of irate Slytherins had not
turned the entire mob into hedgehogs.

In a fit of rage, Hogwarts' current headmaster, Bowman Wright,
decided to take action before Hogsmeade and the school
itself were seriously endangered... He first cast a memory
chram on the deranged minister, who then wandered
the Scotland moors with an erased mind for the rest of his life.
Then Wright cast a curse on Brigadoon itself.  A curse of a
very strange sort: Every night evermore, when its citizens went
to sleep, they would wake up a hundred years later, which if
nothing else, did much to cripple their ability to persecute
wizards in the centuries to come.


                    -- Dave, who probably has too much time
                            on his hands. :)




From bohners at pobox.com  Tue Mar 27 21:43:41 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 16:43:41 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
References: <99qtp6+9sfi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03e401c0b707$028e2ce0$b23bacce@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 15319

>> But how could a Squib have been two-time duelling champion at Hogwarts?
JKR has confirmed that Mrs. Figg is the same as Arabella Figg. <<

> I totally missed that...where did you read that Arabella Figg was
> duelling champion?

Oh argh.  I don't know.  It was one of these things I was completely certain
of, but I have no idea where even to start looking for it.  The phrase
"two-time duelling champion" is definitely there in my mind -- I'm not
confusing it with the remark in CoS that Flitwick was once "a duelling
champion" in his youth.  But as far as associating it with Mrs. Figg goes, I
can only think that I got it out of a JKR interview somewhere.

Anybody else remember this?  Or am I delusional?
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Mar 27 21:46:47 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:46:47 -0000
Subject: Ivanhoe the True Story
Message-ID: <99r1o7+6fd2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15320

Rita the Catlady and I were speculating as to the identity of the 
Bloody Baron, and I came up with the idea that he might be Bois-
Guilbert from Ivanhoe...not a Baron, but maybe it's just a nickname. 
Then of course Rebecca really was a witch after all.

Sample Bois-Guilbert line, having been asked what could be worth the 
sacrifices he has made.
	"The power of vengeance, Rebecca...and the prospects of ambition."
Is that Slytherin thinking or what?!

Pippin





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 27 21:57:44 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:57:44 -0000
Subject: PI - Snape task - SHIP Skeeter - Ginny
Message-ID: <99r2co+iio7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15321

Catherine wrote:

>The only people who came out of V's wand were people who were
>killed.  V had just previously used his wand to torture Harry and one
>of the Death Eaters, and this didn't come out during the Priori
>Incantatum, therefore it seems that this has the effect of creating
>temporary ghosts of people killed and things which no longer exist
>which can be recreated (such as the Dark Mark during the Quidditch
>World Cup).  (Please don't tell me about the recreation of the Dark
>Mark, I can't explain that yet).

I think Dumbledore's expression "echoes" explains it well.  

The Cruciatus does come out?it echoes as faint repetitions of the 
victim's screams; 

the conjuring of solid objects (Wormtail's hand) echoes as faint, 
quickly dispersing images of the objects; 

the murder of a person echoes as the faint image, visual and aural 
and ____ (I'm looking for an adjective for "personality"), of the 
person; 

and the conjuring of whatever the Dark Mark is (some kind of pattern 
of light, like fireworks if they could hang in the sky for an hour?) 
echoes as a smaller, briefer, fainter version.

Amanda wrote, in yet another post filled with the kind of deliciously 
picayune detail that ought to win her the Professor Binns Memorial 
Lexicon Award:

>it's pretty clear that Wormtail was the wielder for
>Cedric, Frank, and Bertha, and they showed up for Voldemort's wand.

I agree with your point, but will nitpick on Frank; I think V killed 
him.  He does have hands.  But as much as I would like to demonstrate 
that I, too, need a life, I don't have GoF handy so I can't cite 
chapter 1 for proof.

Damn, Amanda!  I wrote this whole thing about Snape's telling 
Voldemort that he was the one who got James to switch Secret-Keepers?
I was so proud of myself?I'd never thought of that before . . . and 
then I read your post.  You are too thorough! 

This part is still relevant in response to Gwen and then your 
suggestion:

Now, Sirius, or was it Remus, says in the Shrieking Shack that Peter 
is not in good with the Dark Lord & followers because Voldemort did 
go after the Potters on his information and met his downfall there.  
(Perhaps Snape would be in the same shape for the same reason.  
However, after subjecting Our Greasy-Haired Hero to a few Cruciatuses 
(Cruciati?) for his edification, V may well let that go.  Snape 
didn't foresee that Harry would cause V's downfall any more than 
Peter did, but neither did V.  It was apparently totally astonishing 
to everyone.  (I always thought that if Sirius was right, it was 
pretty tough on Peter.  He was a good little traitor and gave his 
Master the information he wanted?how was he to know it would 
backfire?)

Penny re: JKR on "the answer is in GoF":

>Her answer was quite ambiguous in my mind.

*Waving from over on the Good Ship R/H*  I couldn't agree more.  That 
was definitely Jo being diabolically ambiguous, IMO.

Just to keep things from getting too cozy between the ships, though:

Penny also wrote:

>Skeeter also apparently perceives that there's a possible
>angle there.  If Hermione's feelings for Ron were really all that
>obvious, why would Skeeter think that her articles about H & H would
>touch a nerve?  Skeeter clearly has an agenda .... if there was truly
>nothing there, then would she have used that particular angle or 
tried
>to find something else to get at Harry?

I agree with some H/H hints (Krum's jealousy being the most 
convincing one), but this one doesn't do it for me.  Skeeter's agenda 
is to get a cute story and/or make trouble, first for Harry, then for 
Hagrid, then for Hermione.  Needless to say, she couldn't care less 
whether she has a scrap of evidence for any of it.  She first writes 
about the supposed H/H romance because she is trying to get copy on 
*Harry* and *Harry* hangs around with a *girl* all the time (thanks 
very much, Colin, for feeding her that little tidbit).  Even if Ron 
and Hermione were snogging in the corridors, Rita might still say 
Hermione was Harry's girlfriend, because she is writing about 
*Harry.*  At that point in the book, Rita is not trying to "touch a 
nerve" with Hermione?Hermione is just a useful pawn in Rita's quest 
for Potter Column Inches.

When, later, she does have it in for Hermione, she already has the 
H/H fiction going, so naturally, she continues it in the vein that 
Hermione is stomping on Poor Tragic Harry's heart.  I don't see any 
reason to think Rita has even the slightest idea either one of them 
might actually be interested in the other.

>What else do we really know about Ginny?

Not much, but I'll add a couple of things: the Yule-Ball-date 
conversation adds some complexity to her relationship with Ron, as 
well as telling us a bit about her relationship with Hermione.  Ron 
will confide in her, and she'll comfort him, when he's had a bad 
experience (she seems to be prepared to miss dinner on his account, 
until he ticks her off); if he irritates her, she'll cut him down--
Harry, too, for that matter; she is in Hermione's confidence, as 
Catherine said (and very likely the only person who is, given that 
Parvati, Lavender, and Harry aren't), and has Hermione-like gumption 
when it comes to keeping secrets (won't tell them who H's date is). 
What I get from this scene is that Ginny sees herself and Ron as 
equals, that she is the closest female friend Hermione has, and that 
although she may have a killer crush on Harry, she isn't going to be 
Miss SweetiePie around him?if she's annoyed at him she'll let him 
have it.  We don't know much about her, but the bits we see in GoF 
tell us that she's tough.

I also get a bit about Ginny from her "you're so old-fashioned, Mom"?
standard 13-year-old behavior, but it tell us *something,* as does 
the fact that she likes Bill's long hair and earring.

In any case, you can't say she's the least developed Weasley.  Look 
at Bill.

Amy Z

P.S. Dont'cha love the way all us Americans are now using "snog" on a 
regular basis?  That's what fanfic will do to you; I never even heard 
the word until three months ago.  No, that's not true?I heard Dawn 
French use it on The Vicar of Dibley and I thought it might 
mean "have sex."




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 27 23:15:55 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:15:55 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys
In-Reply-To: <99qr2t+ghu3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99r6vb+50nn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15322

Cassie wrote:

> yet again due to Harry's POV 
> we really have no idea why Hermione talks about Harry so often to 
> Krum. Alas! I did think it was significant upon my first read, but 
> that's subjective.

I put it in the "not necessarily significant but could turn out to be 
a clue" category.  (Like The Kiss.)  It could mean nothing at all--
the Harry is Famous and Flies Really Well Besides, and Who the Heck 
is this Ron? points having some weight, in my view.  But it has 
enough freight that if H/H becomes real, we'll all look back and 
say "Yeah!  Viktor said she talked about him a lot!"  (All of us 
except Kathy aka Elanor, of course, who will have hanged herself from 
the yardarm or whatever it is they hanged Billy Budd from.)

Still an R/H-er, but y'all don't give up hope now,
Amy Z




From ljl236 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 27 23:43:24 2001
From: ljl236 at yahoo.com (LJL)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 15:43:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hi, I'm New
In-Reply-To: <985703361.5769.82983.l6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010327234324.16509.qmail@web9107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15323

a special wilkommen to mecki; glad to have you join us, and ten points to
your house for such excellent posting in English. 
  Lilah

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From inyron at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 00:52:25 2001
From: inyron at yahoo.com (inyron at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 00:52:25 -0000
Subject: What Snape knows; and what he's asked to do
In-Reply-To: <95774A6A6036D411AFEA00D0B73C864301BC07D5@exmc3.urmc.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <99rck9+hulo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15324

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Hillman, Lee" <lee_hillman at u...> wrote:



> ....And what he's asked to do:
> In response to the questions at the end of Chapter 36, Caius wrote:
> 
> > > > 8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to 
do?
> > > 
> > > I haven't ever been exactly clear on what he intends Snape to 
do.  I
> > > assume he wants Snape to return and infiltrate the Death 
Eaters, 
> > but I'm
> > > not sure how he's supposed to manage that, since V. already 
knows
> > > (presumed from his listing of the DEs that aren't in 
attendance) 
> > Snape
> > > is no longer faithful to him.
> >
> 
> There are some factors to consider regarding this problem. First of 
all,
> it's true that Karkaroff tried to name him and Dumbledore publicly 
stated
> that Snape "rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and 
turned
> spy for us, at great personal risk." (GoF, Ch. 30) So it's very 
possible
> that many DE's know that this is what Dumbledore believes, and that 
V has
> gathered this intelligence already through Crouch and Wormtail.
> 
> However, consider the consequences to Snape if he _doesn't_ try to 
return to
> the DE's. In Ch. 33, Voldemort refers to the missing death eaters:
> 
> "And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my 
service. One,
> too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me
> forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my 
most
> faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service."
> 
> The three dead guys could be Rosier, Wilkes, and someone else 
unnamed. The
> coward is Karkaroff and the faithful servant is of course young 
Crouch,
> leaving Snape the one who has left forever. If V isn't exaggerating 
(and why
> should he do?), the alternative to not returning is death.


That's what I thought when I first read the passage, that Karkaroff, 
and Snape is the one who has left forever (because at that point, we 
know Karkaroff is a coward and that Snape left Voldemorts service 
before his downfall.)  But after finishing the book and (repeatedly) 
re-reading, I think that Voldemort is refering to Snape as the coward 
and Karkaroff as the one who has left forever.  After all, Karkaroff 
did renounce Voldemort and *publically* finger fellow death eaters to 
get release from Azkaban.  (Some of the information Karkaroff gave 
was used in court cases, so it had to be public.)  Then, when 
Voldemort returned, he fled.  A coward for sure, but he also left the 
service forever.  Snape also betrayed Voldemort, but how many people 
know this?  Karkaroff was suprised, a couple years after Voldemort's 
fall.  Voldemort might not suspect Snape, but simply think soft or a 
coward after spending years under Dumbledore's thumb.  


inyron

jumping right in.





From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Wed Mar 28 01:12:54 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:12:54 -0000
Subject: Expulsion from Hogwarts (was Re: Young Snape - H/N - Mrs Figg)
In-Reply-To: <3AC0D7FE.BB3B4AC6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99rdqm+hrli@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15325

mmmfanic wrote:

>No, I'm not ignoring the fact that Dumbledore can expel him but he 
has to have a very, very good reason such as the death or serious 
injury to a fellow student.

I don't think we have any clue what it takes to get expelled.  In CoS 
chapter 5, Snape takes R & H to his office and says, "Most 
unfortunately you are not in my house and the power to expel you does 
not rest with me."
Dumbledore says that they are McGonagall's responsibility and it's her 
decision what to do with them.  

Granted, no one died or was seriously injured (unless you count the 
WW), but they did break the underage decree AND get themselves viewed 
by Muggles while they were at it.

Also, considering the time someone did die and a student was expelled 
(Hagrid) - what evidence gathering/procedure was done then?  I know we 
are privy to everything that happened, but it seems like it comes down 
to one really good student (Riddle) condemning a mediocre one, and the 
Headmaster at the time going along with it.  After all, by the time 
Riddle informed anyone of his "suspicions", the "creature that Hagrid 
had set loose to kill the Mudbloods" (Aragog) had already gotten away.  
They didn't have enough evidence to send him to Azkaban, but they 
expelled him based on it.

a.





From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Wed Mar 28 01:25:29 2001
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:25:29 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
In-Reply-To: <99qob0+nqhs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99rei9+otid@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15326

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Florence" <fgcjnk at b...> wrote:
>  
> > My guess is that Mrs. Figg *offered* to take care of Harry in the 
> > beginning -- for free. 
> 
> I think Dumbledore may have offered her services to the Dursleys in 
> the 'letter that explained everything'.  

You really think the Dursleys would have taken any advice from 
Dumbledore?  I suspect that any babysitter recommended by Dumbledore 
would have been shunned like the plague, as far as the Dursleys were 
concerned.  They might even move to a different part of town, or 
another town in equal distance from Mr. Dursley's job, just on 
principle.

> > 2. She had to be able to drop her life and go do this. The poor 
> > witch has spent how many years as a Muggle? 
> 
> I still think she's a squib and had to live like this anyway.

I suspect most, or at least some, squibs would still be living in the 
magical world - they'd been brought up there, and letting them out 
into the muggle world would be troublesome for them, to say the 
least.  Theya re also a certain risk when it comes to letting 
knowledge of the magical world slip out to the muggles.  Available 
jobs would include selling tickets at the Knight-bus and other tasks 
that do not require magical knowledge.

Practise from family to family would vary, of course - I am not 
certain that a squib born into the Malfoy-family should expect a 
lifespan of any reasonable length..

> > And by the way . . . why *couldn't* she let him in on anything? 
> 
> The Dursleys asked her not to?  And only used her once a year just 
> in case.
> 
>  
> > if she was communicating with Dumbledore all this time, why on 
> > Earth didn't Hagrid know that Harry was completely clueless about 
> > his parentage? 
> 
> Dumbledore guessed, but only hinted to Hagrid that there might be 
> trouble - after all the Dursleys may have been waiting until nearer 
> the time to tell him.
> 
> 
> > You'd think that around Harry's ninth birthday or so, Mrs. Figg 
> > might have owled Dumbledore and said something like, "You
> > know . . . the Potter boy really has no idea about what he is. 
> > The invitation from Hogwarts will probably be a bit of a shock. 
> > Do you think I should whip out the *real* photo albums and have a 
> > chat with him next time the Muggles send him over?" 
> 
> I expect she did, but Dumbledore had to respect the Dursleys 
> choices here or they might have refused to contine to look after 
> him.  Of course Mrs Figg may have been going to talk to Harry on 
> Dudleys birthday just before the Hogwarts invite, but couldn't 
> because she broke her leg.  (If she IS a witch why didn't she get 
> this fixed up magically?)

Most likely because somebody saw her breaking the leg - it'd be a bit 
odd if she was sent off to hospital with a broken leg one day, and 
the next day her leg was OK again.  It is not a given that all 
witches and wizards know how to heal themselves, anyway.

Best regards
Christian Stub?





From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 28 02:09:12 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 20:09:12 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Picking a Valentine nit (was Ginny/Girl Harry,  yada, ...
References: <99qr9e+eviv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC147C8.43AA1696@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15327

Kimberly wrote:

> But why would Draco say it?  He and everyone present would know it to
> be untrue, so it wouldn't even be a good tease.

What abnormally civilized country, or unusually polite siblings, or
whatever, did you grow up with, to allow you to say something like this?
Public tormenting has nothing to do with the truth--it has to do with
timing, delivery, and audience. Draco had all three, *and* a target that
was almost guaranteed to react for maximum effect and not and not
challenge what he'd said. It's a *perfect* tease.

>  And it still doesn't make sense that Harry, if he knew everyone was
> getting them, would feel the need to run away from one of these
> valentines.

I sure would. If it were in a hallway in front of younger students than
me, who will therefore be around for the entire rest of my time at
school, and might remember this for that whole time....

--Amanda, daughter of a teaser, little sister of three teasers, wife of
a teaser, and mother of three (she suspects) soon-to-be-accomplished
button pushers and chain yankers


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar 28 02:14:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 20:14:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summary  Priori spells was Amanda needs a life
References: <99qqat+kos6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC148EE.79A663D8@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15328

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> As for why there were no screams of pain from the first cruciatus
> curse
> Harry suffered..
> THEORY  he was gagged. END THEORY

This is correct. Wormtail gagged him with a wad of stuff, and the first
time the spell was cast on him the gag was still in place. It was after
the first Cruciatus curse that Harry was untied, ungagged, and given his
wand. Good spotting.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Wed Mar 28 02:20:45 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 22:20:45 -0400
Subject: Brigadoon,the True Story (Silly Post)
Message-ID: <3AC14A7D.6BEC2A7@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 15329

From: Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at mindspring.com>

> The movie _Brigadoon_ is on right now.  Now I am someone
> who likes to try to associate everything possible to Harry's
> world, and when the old man (forget his name) is telling the history
> of Brigadoon, he talks about how anxious they were to get rid of
> "evil" witches.  This make me wonder if there's another side to the
> story, which I outline below (I apologize _a priori_ to any
> _Brigadoon_ fans here):

Ooh, Gene Kelly and Harry Potter, two of my favourite guys!

<snip>

> In a fit of rage, Hogwarts' current headmaster, Bowman Wright,
> decided to take action before Hogsmeade and the school
> itself were seriously endangered... He first cast a memory
> chram on the deranged minister, who then wandered
> the Scotland moors with an erased mind for the rest of his life.
> Then Wright cast a curse on Brigadoon itself.  A curse of a
> very strange sort: Every night evermore, when its citizens went
> to sleep, they would wake up a hundred years later, which if
> nothing else, did much to cripple their ability to persecute
> wizards in the centuries to come.

I beg to differ. The residents of Brigadoon *like* their curse. They
*like* being protected from the outside world by magic (well, except for
one, but that would spoil the movie). They do not consider the magical
protection process as evil, they view it as Divine Intervention. (Hey! A
movie about magic loving Christians!)

But I like the genesis of your post. My friends and I, as much as we
adore Gene, can't help snickering when he and Van Johnson tap dance in
the village square. Now we know how they can make tapping sands in the
dirt - magic!

And now I know where all the clans appear from to attend the wedding -
they Apparated!

Maybe the Brigadoon villagers are actually wizard folk - I would like to
think that some of the awful costumes come from their attempt to dress
as Muggles (I'm speaking about the plaid pants with the pattern on the
diagonal here).

Don't get me wrong, I like Brigadoon because I like every Gene Kelly
movie, and there is a lot of good stuff in it. Doesn't rank in my top
ten, but I do recommend it.

Oooh, I feel a filk based on a Gene Kelly song coming on! :-)

Angela
-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
  "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs
should relax and get used to the idea."   Robert A. Heinlein



From harry_potter00 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 02:18:10 2001
From: harry_potter00 at yahoo.com (Scott)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 02:18:10 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione and Krum...
In-Reply-To: <99q2l9+npbe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99rhl2+f669@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15330

I have not caught up on all today's messages but I had to respond to 
this. If it's already been covered, then I'm sorry, but it's a SHIP 
post and I couldn't resist! Let the shipping begin-
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

catherine at c... wrote:
"No, no, no... RON and Hermione.  I have become quite obsessed with 
this."
 
-- Don't worry Catherine in might not be too late, you can still join 
us! Just kidding you can be R/H, H/H or even Harry/Hedwig for all I 
care, but that doesn't mean I'm  not read to argue.


"She wanted the boys to notice that she was a girl, which they don't 
until they are absolutely desperate for dates of their own, and they 
don't even notice her new teeth until Ron's interest is piqued with 
regard to her mystery date."

--I don't think it's that odd that Ron and Harry didn't notice her 
teeth. I have female friends and they'll have gotten their hair cut, 
but I never notice until someone says something (well sometimes I 
notice)...is it a male thing?  


"She had the good sense to know exactly what would make Ron sit up 
and take notice of her(ie going to the ball with Krum, Ron's hero) 
and she generally shows that she is streets ahead as far as general 
maturity is concerned."

--Do you really think that the only reason Hermione went with Krum 
was because she wanted to make Ron jealous? Krum certainly took an 
interest in her, and he didn't have to. (He could have easily gotten 
any number of dates for the ball). The fact is he choose Hermione.

Hermione was interesting in Krum (IMO) because he as older, and a 
star and yet he was interested in study-a-holic Hermione. He saw her 
as a girl, and she probably liked that because it was/is a role she 
rarely plays. 

Take this scene with the trio at the Yule Ball in GoF-
Ron:"...Fraternizing with the enemy that's what you're doing!"
Hermione: (mouth falls open) "Don't be stupid!"
<snip>
Ron:"I s'pose he asked you to come with him while you were both in 
the Library?"
Hermione:"Yes he did, so what?"
Ron:"What Happened- trying to get him to join SPEW, were you?"
Hermione:"No I wasn't! If you really want to know, he- he said he'd 
been coming to the library everyday to try and talk to me..."

I could go one but this is my general point. Ron is overtly jealous 
but doesn't realise it. Hermione just seems to be suprised at Ron's 
reactions. She can't believe that he is that upset over her going 
with Krum. If she had planned to go with Krum just to make Ron 
jealous would she really be so suprised at his reaction?



 I was going to say 
that this is usually the case between young male and female teenagers 
> of that age, which is why it seems right that Hermione should go 
for 
> someone older like Krum (I even linked her to Percy at one stage), 
> but Hermione is streets ahead of most of the other girls as well. 
> (None of the silly giggling in corners for her).
> 
"All this seems more likely on rereading, in light of JKR's comments 
in the Comic Relief online interview.  Someone asked if Hermione 
liked Ron as more than just a friend, and she said that the answer to 
that was in GoF.  Therefore I am sure that there will be developments 
at some stage."

--This can be read a number of different ways. It might mean that she 
does indeed like Ron, or that she doesn't like him or anyone else, or 
that she likes someone else. Whether we like it or not I think R/H is 
the most likely future relationship to develop in-canon. (runs to the 
railing, and loud gagging sounds are heard.)

Scott 
Just for clarification this DOES belong here and not on OT-Chatter 
right?






From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Wed Mar 28 02:46:21 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 02:46:21 -0000
Subject: the "broken" leg (was Re: Mrs. Figg as babysitter)
In-Reply-To: <99rei9+otid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99rj9t+ven8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15331



> > Christian Stub? wrote:
> Most likely because somebody saw her breaking the leg - it'd be a bit 
> odd if she was sent off to hospital with a broken leg one day, and 
> the next day her leg was OK again.  It is not a given that all 
> witches and wizards know how to heal themselves, anyway.
> 
I agree with the nonmagical healing idea - not only because of what 
Lockhart did to Harry's arm in CoS, but also because Lupin didn't heal 
Ron's leg in PoA because he wasn't good at that (don't have the exact 
quote).  How far would she travel with a broken leg to find someone 
magically equipped to heal one?
It's also possible that she didn't really have a broken leg.  There 
have been a few instances where the magical healing wasn't immediate 
(like the bandages on Hermione's hands post skeeter article).  The 
broken leg story may have been camouflage for whatever really happened 
(curse or whatnot).
a.





From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 02:49:02 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 02:49:02 -0000
Subject: the "broken" leg (was Re: Mrs. Figg as babysitter)
In-Reply-To: <99rj9t+ven8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99rjeu+slhc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15332

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aprilgc at i... wrote:
> 
> 
> > > Christian Stub????ote:
> > Most likely because somebody saw her breaking the leg - it'd be a 
bit 
> > odd if she was sent off to hospital with a broken leg one day, 
and 
> > the next day her leg was OK again.  It is not a given that all 
> > witches and wizards know how to heal themselves, anyway.
> > 
> I agree with the nonmagical healing idea - not only because of what 
> Lockhart did to Harry's arm in CoS, but also because Lupin didn't 
heal 
> Ron's leg in PoA because he wasn't good at that (don't have the 
exact 
> quote).  How far would she travel with a broken leg to find someone 
> magically equipped to heal one?
> It's also possible that she didn't really have a broken leg.  There 
> have been a few instances where the magical healing wasn't 
immediate 
> (like the bandages on Hermione's hands post skeeter article).  The 
> broken leg story may have been camouflage for whatever really 
happened 
> (curse or whatnot).
> a.

And - maybe NOTHING was wrong. After all, she called to cancel. So - 
the Dursleys never saw her - and I am am dead sure they didn't go to 
visit her after and make sure she was ok. Maybe Mrs. Figg had a hot 
date! 

Heather M.




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 28 03:42:53 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:42:53 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Expulsion from Hogwarts (was Re: Young Snape - H/N - Mrs Figg)
In-Reply-To: <99rdqm+hrli@eGroups.com>
References: <3AC0D7FE.BB3B4AC6@texas.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010327194203.03ad1830@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15333

At 01:12 AM 3/28/01 +0000, aprilgc at ivillage.com wrote:
>They didn't have enough evidence to send him to Azkaban, but they
>expelled him based on it.

Sounds almost like _The Winslow Boy_, doesn't it?



                                                 -- Dave




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Wed Mar 28 03:39:11 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 03:39:11 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
In-Reply-To: <99p638+kj1p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99rmcv+ehmb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15334


> > Stacy wrote:
<snip>
> And by the way . . . why *couldn't* she let him in on anything? And 
> if she was communicating with Dumbledore all this time, why on Earth 
> didn't Hagrid know that Harry was completely clueless about his 
> parentage? You'd think that around Harry's ninth birthday or so, Mrs. 
> Figg might have owled Dumbledore and said something like, "You 
> know . . . the Potter boy really has no idea about what he is. The 
> invitation from Hogwarts will probably be a bit of a shock. Do you 
> think I should whip out the *real* photo albums and have a chat with 
> him next time the Muggles send him over?" Would have helped Harry out 
> immensely, I think . . . though PS might have been less entertaining.
> 
Even if the Dursleys had told Harry about his abilities, how would Mrs. 
Figg know?  Harry would know not to tell anyone outside the family (for 
fear of retribution/ridicule, if nothing else).  Why would he tell the 
"mad" old lady who babysits him once a year... "You know what, I'm a 
wizard..."?  Without planting bugs in the Dursley home, or reading 
Harry's mind they have no way of knowing what Harry's been told (or 
not).  The little old lady can't very well ask him if he knows he's a 
wizard.
About seeing/not seeing Harry:
She lives two streets over (I think).  If she went too long without 
seeing him, she'd probably check up on him, but depending on schedules 
its possible to go days/weeks without seeing the kids who live a couple 
houses over.  Wouldn't necessarily mean there's a problem.
a.





From jellycrys at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 03:51:57 2001
From: jellycrys at hotmail.com (crystal white)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 22:51:57 -0500
Subject: House Elves' Real Power
Message-ID: <F120sjbmDoP6j8oUwoy0000dfa2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15335

Here's an interesting theory - I got into a discussion about who will be on 
what side when (IMO) Voldemort really starts going again.  I think Dobby 
especially will be on the side of HP.  Doubly so when one considers how much 
Dobby disliked working for the Malfoys.  Winky, on the other hand, poses a 
puzzle to me.  She is working for Hogwarts (w/o pay, as she likes it) and 
yet she still refuses to say anything even slightly derogatory about the 
Crouches.  I don't think these seemingly weak characters should be 
overlooked.  Remember at the end of CoS when Malfoy Sr. started to go after 
HP for "losing him his house elf"......Dobby said "You will not harm Harry 
Potter" and then flung Malfoy Sr. down the stairs.  This is definite 
forshadowing to me.

-Crystal :@)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 04:03:16 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 04:03:16 -0000
Subject: the "broken" leg (was Re: Mrs. Figg as babysitter)
In-Reply-To: <99rjeu+slhc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99rnq4+itn9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15336

Heather M. wrote:

> And - maybe NOTHING was wrong. After all, she called to cancel. So -
 
> the Dursleys never saw her - and I am am dead sure they didn't go 
to 
> visit her after and make sure she was ok. Maybe Mrs. Figg had a hot 
> date! 
> 

Maybe she wanted Harry to get to go to the zoo for once in his life.

That would be nice . . . but Dudley knocked her over while she was on 
her crutches a few weeks later, so she had at least a faux broken leg.

Amy Z






From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 04:25:24 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 04:25:24 -0000
Subject: Picking a Valentine nit (was Ginny/Girl Harry,  yada, ...
In-Reply-To: <3AC147C8.43AA1696@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99rp3k+svak@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15337

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:

> Kimberly wrote:
> 
> > But why would Draco say it?  He and everyone present would know 
it to
> > be untrue, so it wouldn't even be a good tease.
> 
> What abnormally civilized country, or unusually polite siblings, or
> whatever, did you grow up with, to allow you to say something like 
this?
> Public tormenting has nothing to do with the truth--it has to do 
with
> timing, delivery, and audience. Draco had all three, *and* a target 
that
> was almost guaranteed to react for maximum effect and not and not
> challenge what he'd said. It's a *perfect* tease.

Oh believe me, my sister's 5 years older, and was an expert kid 
sister torturer for years before I caught on to the game and could 
even dish back - I do know a good tease when I see one, and Draco's a 
master.  My point was, the effect *shouldn't*, and in my opinion 
*wouldn't* be as good if everyone knew it was really from Lockhart, 
and if students had been getting these silly valentines all day. 
I just think the effect makes more sense if Ginny sent the 
valentine.  Sure Ginny'd be somewhat embarrassed if Draco said that, 
even if everyone there knew it wasn't true, but wouldn't she be far 
*more* embarrassed if it were true?  As embarrassed as she was, I was 
sure it must've been true.  The cupid didn't say who it was from, so 
I'm guessing (if it was her) she didn't intend for even Harry to know 
it was from her, so for Draco to say that in front of all those 
people would be far more mortifying in that case, and Draco would 
relish it all the more.  It just seems like a better, more sensible 
scene if she did send it.

> 
> >  And it still doesn't make sense that Harry, if he knew everyone 
was
> > getting them, would feel the need to run away from one of these
> > valentines.
> 
> I sure would. If it were in a hallway in front of younger students 
than
> me, who will therefore be around for the entire rest of my time at
> school, and might remember this for that whole time....

But if kids all over school were getting silly valentines like the 
one he got all day long, I'd think he'd just shrug and get it over 
with instead of trying to run away and making things worse.  It'd be 
annoying, but not so horrible that he would need to flee.  The fact 
that it's unique to him is sort of key, in my mind.
He is capable of laughing at himself.  In the same book, he doesn't 
mind at all when Fred and George preceed him down the hallways 
yelling 'Make way for the heir of Slytherin, seriously evil wizard 
coming through'.  In fact, he's grateful, under the circumstances.  
And he hasn't shown signs of being particularly mortified by Ginny's 
crush in the past.
And there's no mention of the same sort of valentine going to 
*anyone* else, so I figured this one was fairly unique.  Surely if it 
was Lockhart's little game only, other students would have had 
similar experiences all day long, and Harry'd have seen it happen and 
been less freaked out when it happened to him.  I think Lockart set 
it up for the students to send them, and few took him up on his 
offer, and even fewer of those came up with 'singing valentines', and 
even fewer with such cute verse, so when all of that came together, 
it was especially embarrassing.

kimberly
who still wishes she hadn't told her sister about her first crush




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 04:43:38 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 04:43:38 -0000
Subject: Picking a Valentine nit
In-Reply-To: <99rp3k+svak@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99rq5q+od1n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15338

Kimberly wrote:

> But if kids all over school were getting silly valentines like the 
> one he got all day long, I'd think he'd just shrug and get it over 
> with instead of trying to run away and making things worse.  It'd 
be 
> annoying, but not so horrible that he would need to flee.  The fact 
> that it's unique to him is sort of key, in my mind.

It's unique even if other people have been getting them, because this 
one is tailored to him.  Harry really doesn't like being the center 
of attention, especially with "the hero who conquered the Dark Lord" 
stuff, and I can't think of a 12-year-old I've met who could stand 
anyone praising his toad-green eyes publicly.  I don't think you can 
really compare it to the Fred and George "seriously evil wizard" 
thing (I love that.  How can I have forgotten how hilarious CoS is?  
That scene, the thuggish dwarf, pixies, Kwikspell . . .) because the 
circumstances were so awful that Harry was grateful that there was 
someone willing to say it was ludicrous for him to be the Heir of 
Slytherin.  Doesn't the text even phrase it in such a way to suggest 
that Harry would normally find this kind of behavior embarrassing, 
except for the circumstances?

I agree that probably very few people actually sent these things, 
especially with the specially-authored doggerel.  But I think Harry 
would've been embarrassed anyway, even if he'd seen lots of people 
get them.

> Surely if it 
> was Lockhart's little game only, other students would have had 
> similar experiences all day long, and Harry'd have seen it happen 
and 
> been less freaked out when it happened to him.  I think Lockart set 
> it up for the students to send them, 

For Draco's tease to be effective, it has to have been *possible* for 
Ginny to have sent it--i.e. the whole valentine thing can't be a 
Lockhart-only creation.  But Ginny doesn't have to have sent that 
actual one.  She'd still be humiliated by Draco's comment.

Amy Z
who still likes the idea that Draco sent it himself




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 05:24:09 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 05:24:09 -0000
Subject: New elements
Message-ID: <99rshp+9p7e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15339

<sorry if this is a repeat--it got eaten the first time>

Every once in awhile someone raises the question of why we don't hear 
about this or that thing until a later book.  E.g. why do we never 
hear the term "Death Eaters" until GoF?  Is this a Flint on JKR's 
part? etc.

I have been thinking about the fact that for me, this is one of the 
many charms of the books.  What I love best about PS/SS (which is 
otherwise my 4th favorite, if I'm really forced to choose) is all the 
new things you encounter--one terrific Rowling idea after another, 
like portraits that move around and House ghosts.  If she'd 
introduced them all in the first book, the subsequent ones would 
really be missing something.

Every book has lots of things like this that we've never encountered 
before--

CoS:  Azkaban, the Weasleys' car, self-shuffling playing cards, Ron's 
Chudley Cannons fanship, Polyjuice Potion, Fawkes, Dumbledore's 
office, Floo Powder, Knockturn Alley, the Chamber of Secrets, the 
Whomping Willow, house-elves, Parseltongue as a rare phenomenon.

PoA: Dementors, Boggarts, and various other Dark creatures; Professor 
Kettleburn; Professor Trelawney; the Marauder's Map; Hogsmeade (we 
hear of it but don't get the tour before this); the Knight Bus; Sir 
Cadogan; the fact that Harry has a godfather. 

GoF: lots more Dark and otherwise interesting creatures we've never 
heard of before, veela, other wizarding schools, giants being hated 
and Hagrid being half-giant, Apparition (I believe it is in CoS in 
some versions but not in others?), Penseives, the term "Death 
Eaters," Snape having been one, the Dark Mark, the prefects' having 
their own bathroom, magical eyes.

We could ask about almost any of them, "how come this didn't get a 
mention earlier?"  Why didn't we hear about Dementors when we first 
learned about Azkaban?  Can we really believe F&G never talked about 
the Map before now?  Why didn't we hear the term "Death Eaters" the 
first time we heard about Voldemort's circle of supporters?  etc.  
The reason isn't, IMO, usually that JKR hadn't thought of these items 
yet, though I'm sure she thinks of some of them as she goes.  One 
answer is that PS/SS would have been 900 pages long if she'd made it 
a comprehensive tour of the wizarding world; another is that JKR is 
spacing them out to give us new delights in each book.  I like the 
latter because I'm hoping 5, 6 and 7 will be filled with new 
inventions like these.

Amy Z




From kathleen at carr.org  Wed Mar 28 04:46:37 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:46:37 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Hermione & the Boys
Message-ID: <200103280536.f2S5aY629167@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 15340

Oooo, goody, shipping threads!  I hate it when I work late, because everybody 
says what I was going to say before I get a chance to check my email. :(  You 
will notice, however, that this doesn't stop me from responding...

Penny wrote:
>There's plenty of H/H evidence
>in GoF too, you know. Her answer was quite ambiguous in my mind.
>Hermione's feelings are quite open to more than one interpretation.<g>

Plenty of H/H evidence...well, that's open to debate.  But we already know 
that our interpretations differ greatly, so I won't go any further on that 
point (remembers the Great Semicolon Debate and shudders).

For what its worth, I think JKR's answer to Zsenya's question <waves at 
Zsenya> WAS ambiguous...but I suspect it was more to keep things that are 
"under the surface" (so to speak)...well, under the surface.  I know, I know, 
it's blindingly obvious that Ron is jealous and likes Hermione, but, as star 
pointed out awhile ago, it never actually SAYS so in the books.  We as adults 
can see it clearly (and some of us see Hermione's feelings as being one way or 
the other as well).  But all we really have is subtext to go on, either way.  
And subtext, apparently, is in the eye of the beholder. :)

JKR's answer also makes me think of one of Peg Kerr's excellent posts from way 
back on secrets--on how respecting others' secrets is a vital part of being a 
"good guy".  Here's part of the post: (This is in the Files section, under 
"Essays--Peg Kerr", and it's a fascinating essay which I highly recommend, 
btw):

>Dumbledore, Harry's guide, seems to be teaching him that secrets are best
>kept until they are "ripe," but they must told when the time is right.
>Significantly, they must be told by the person who the secret belongs to.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that I see JKR sort of "protecting" 
the characters' secrets too, when she gives ambiguous answers like that (and I 
am referring to more than just shipper-type questions here, though obviously 
some strong emotions are involved there).

Penny wrote:
>Like Heidi said, some of us think the fact that she kissed Harry at
>>>the end of GoF could be a signal that she has romantic interest in
>Harry.

I don't want to get into the whole KISS debate again, because we've been 
through it all before, but I just want to say 2 things on this:

a) I was under the impression that most H/H-ers felt that THE KISS was fairly 
weak as H/H evidence.  But perhaps I am wrong.

b) I personally feel that interpreting THE KISS as romantic completely takes 
away from the story at this point (and I am not just saying this because of 
the ship I captain).  The mood and tone of the book at that point is one of 
watching and waiting.  I found the end of GoF especially creepy because harry 
is, in essence, leaving everyone who cares about him just at the time when he 
needs them most.  To put a romantic spin on that kiss, IMO, also negates 
Hermione's sensitivity.  To me, it was quite clear that she kissed Harry on 
the cheek because she knew he needed support.  The "did something she had 
never done before" part, to me, just emphasized that Trio is getting older, 
and they are going to face new trials and deal with them in more mature ways.

Wow, for not having much to say on that, I sure said a lot. ;)

Penny again:
>She couldn't be bothered to talk to Viktor Krum, who had
>just saved her from the lake & declared his feelings for her, because
>she was too busy cheering for & talking to *Harry*.

OK, if I were 14 and had some guy just declare his feelings to me after a VERY 
public display of his affection, and I was unsure how I felt about him and was 
feeling really uncomfortable, I would find someone else to talk to quickly 
too.  And I might busy myself cheering for my best friend as an excuse to 
avoid talking to lover-boy too.  But maybe that's just me.

Catherine wrote:
>Regarding Krum, his jealousy of Harry is understandable, whether
>founded or not. <snip>. It is highly unlikely that Krum even noticed Ron's
>existence, apart from his being Harry's friend. He sees Harry as a rival,
>period, whether as a competitor in the Tournament, or over Hermione - the
>two have naturally come together.

You took the words right out of my mouth, Catherine.  Whenever people cite 
Viktor's question as H/H evidence, I just think, "Huh?".  It seems clear to me 
that his jealousy is a product of Hermione talking about Harry (a point which 
B. and others have covered very well already, so I'll leave it alone here), 
Rita Skeeter's articles, and knowing that Harry is The Famous Harry Potter.  I 
don't think it would even occur to him that the red-haired kid could be a 
rival.  I think Viktor, like a lot of other people, underestimates Ron.

In fact, I think it more than likely that a Hermione-who-likes-Ron would *not* 
talk about Ron in front of Viktor.  She's keeping that to herself.  Besides, 
wouldn't it be uncomfortable to mention the guy you like in front of the one 
who is pursuing you wildly?  (And vice versa--remember how uncomfortable she 
is talking about Viktor in front of Ron.)

And I still think the fact that Ron shows no obvious jealousy over the 
articles linking Harry and Hermione indicates the lack of romantic H/H tension 
(the Ron in my story notwithstanding <g>).

Catherine wrote:
> (By the way, what is a Shipper?)

LOL!  You are, dear. ;)  A lovely stateroom is being prepared for you aboard 
the Good Ship R/H as we speak...

Catherine wrote:
>(But please don't beat me up over this, I'm not objecting to H/H,
>just think the other is more likely).

Oooo, I'm objecting!  Go ahead, beat me up!  (Kidding!  I'm kidding!  Don't 
ram the ship, please!)

Cassie wrote:
>Really? I've never gotten any sense that Hermione and Ginny were in
>any way close, and have always felt a little bad for Hermione that
>she doesn't have female friends. I don't get the slightest sense that
>she confides in Ginny -- there's never been a single scene in which
>we see her hanging out with Ginny casually and for fun; she never
>sits with her at meals or in the common room or the library.

She does hang out with her at Burrow, and at the World Cup.  And we do see 
them eating breakfast together, as someone mentioned...and I still think the 
fact that Ginny knew about Hermione's date is very telling.  After all, if 
Hermione hadn't meant it to be secret, wouldn't someone else have known and 
told Ron?  (Ooo, imagine if Fred or George had gotten their hands on that 
information...ooo, fanfic idea forming...)

Penny wrote:
>She's also, IMO, not mad because he hadn't noticed she was a girl. She
>was mad because he wanted the prettiest girl he could find and then when
>he wasted too much time & got rejected to boot, he suddenly turned to
>"good old Hermione."

I agree and disagree here.  I think it's pretty clear she's angry that he 
hadn't noticed she's a girl.  But I also agree that she was mad about asking 
her at the last minute after the pair of trolls remark.  I think that the fact 
that he did it so idiotically ("You *are a girl...") just made her madder.

Penny wrote:
>Well, she eats all her meals with Harry; they walk to class together;
>they sit in class together; they leave class together -- there is no
>mention of her spending much time with Ron.

Again , I quote: 
"Hermione was furious with the pair of them; she went from one to the other, 
trying to force them to talk to each other..." (GoF, UK ed, p. 277)

I think it's pretty clear that she was spending time with BOTH of them during 
that fight.  Perhaps her time was a little more weighted toward Harry because 
he didn't have anyone else to hang out with and Ron did.  Remember, Hermione 
knew firsthand how hard it was to have your best friends ignore you--it had 
happened to her the year before.  I think the way she handles it says a lot 
for her maturity level and sensitivity.

Also, in all the books, I think that Ron and Hermione spend a lot more time 
together than we see.  Pretty much every time Harry is by himself, Ron and 
Hermione are together.  Whenever Harry comes back from Quidditch practice, or 
Dementor-defense lessons, or whatever, Hermione and Ron are in the common room 
together.

Amy Z:
>But it has enough freight that if H/H becomes real, we'll all look back and
>say "Yeah! Viktor said she talked about him a lot!" (All of us
>except Kathy aka Elanor, of course, who will have hanged herself from
>the yardarm or whatever it is they hanged Billy Budd from.)

LOL!  Oh, dear, am I *that* vehement?  :)  I suppose I am.  Oh well.  Maybe 
Hermione will run off to Bulgaria with Viktor Krum after all, and Penny and I 
can have a suicide pact. <g>

Scott:
>Hermione was interesting in Krum (IMO) because he as older, and a
>star and yet he was interested in study-a-holic Hermione. He saw her
>as a girl, and she probably liked that because it was/is a role she
>rarely plays.

I agree (mark that down Scott!).  I think Hermione found Viktor attractive 
because he was nice, sweet, smart, and liked her.  A lot.  When you hang out 
with a couple of clods who don't notice your newly-repaired teeth, and don't 
even notice you're a *girl*, it must be wonderful to suddenly have someone 
think you're the bee's knees.  And show it. (That part is key.)  Also, I think 
Hermione doesn't want to hurt Viktor.  It's not that she doesn't like him; she 
just doesn't like him as much as he likes her.  I think if H/V were to happen, 
it would happen because Viktor would keep pursuing Hermione, and she would 
just...let him.  But I suspect Hermione's got more gumption than to let that 
go too far, because she knows Viktor would get hurt.  (And because she's 
really in love with someone else...)

Scott wrote:
>I could go one but this is my general point. Ron is overtly jealous
>but doesn't realise it. Hermione just seems to be suprised at Ron's
>reactions. She can't believe that he is that upset over her going
>with Krum. If she had planned to go with Krum just to make Ron
>jealous would she really be so suprised at his reaction?

Unless she just sort of assumed that Ron would ask her, and went with Viktor 
because he asked first.  I don't think she necessarily went with Viktor to 
make Ron jealous; I think maybe she just realized that Ron was never going to 
ask her, so she might as well go with the nice Bulgarian Quidditch star who 
asked her.  And she could be surprised at Ron's jealousy because she assumed 
that he wasn't interested in her, since he didn't ask to the ball.  I'm not 
saying it necessarily happened this way.  Just that it could have. :)

Scott wrote:
>Just for clarification this DOES belong here and not on OT-Chatter
>right?

*giggles* Like canonical shipping will be declared off-topic while Penny is 
Listmom! :)


Cap'n Kathy of the Good Ship R/H
AKA Elanor Gamgee
getting her sealegs again...




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 06:06:52 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 06:06:52 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys - Stouffer
In-Reply-To: <200103280536.f2S5aY629167@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <99rv1s+7tj5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15341

Kathy, aka Elanor Gamgee, wrote:

>(remembers the Great Semicolon Debate and shudders).

Okay, will someone please give a message # on The Great Semicolon 
Debate?  I've searched the archives for "semicolon" and turned up 
only a post from CMC about how JKR's sentences are nicely complex.  I 
agree, but it wasn't what I was looking for.  I have taken to reading 
through the canon in search of sentences that contain semicolons and 
can be, however remotely, imagined as being SHIP-related.  Save me!

> 
> JKR's answer also makes me think of one of Peg Kerr's excellent 
posts from way 
> back on secrets--on how respecting others' secrets is a vital part 
of being a 
> "good guy".  <snip>
> 
> Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that I see JKR sort 
of "protecting" 
> the characters' secrets too, when she gives ambiguous answers like 
that (and I 
> am referring to more than just shipper-type questions here, though 
obviously 
> some strong emotions are involved there).

Yeah!  This even fits in with the post I just put up (the one 
directly before Kathy's, "New elements")--I mostly listed things and 
creatures, but there are lots of unfolding character "secrets" and as-
yet-unknowns, too, e.g. Neville's family tragedy, the whole Sirius 
story, the whole Snape story, the details of what a nightmare Aunt 
Marge is, Ron's crush, etc.

> I don't want to get into the whole KISS debate again, because we've 
been 
> through it all before, but I just want to say 2 things on this:
> 
> a) I was under the impression that most H/H-ers felt that THE KISS 
was fairly 
> weak as H/H evidence.  But perhaps I am wrong.

I think most do.  But most subtext evidence can be shot down easily 
if you do it one piece at a time.  The Kiss might be significant, *in 
conjunction with* other evidence.  I don't think so, personally, but 
it's not fair to pull it out of context.  

Actually--diversion alert--by the same token, we can't shoot down 
Stouffer just because she includes ridiculous things like a Great 
Hall and wooden doors.  Of course these are so common as to be 
meaningless as evidence, but enough meaningless evidence would add up 
to meaningful.  E.g. what if there were a character named Ron in both 
books?  Ron's a common name, doesn't mean anything.  What if there 
were an old, wise, bearded professor in both books?  They're a dime a 
dozen, doesn't mean anything.  What if there were a magical car in 
both books?  There are lots of magical cars--look at Chitty Chitty 
Bang Bang. . . . okay, after awhile, even though each individual item 
isn't odd, together they add up to more than coincidence.  So if we 
are going to knock down Stouffer's argument, we have to take her 
examples in toto.  (And they are still ludicrous, even compiled.)
> 
> OK, if I were 14 and had some guy just declare his feelings to me 
after a VERY 
> public display of his affection, and I was unsure how I felt about 
him and was 
> feeling really uncomfortable, I would find someone else to talk to 
quickly 
> too.  And I might busy myself cheering for my best friend as an 
excuse to 
> avoid talking to lover-boy too.  But maybe that's just me.

Bingo!  Thank you for articulating this--that's exactly how I feel.  
Also remember that the last time Hermione saw Harry, he had only a 
few hours to go with no clue how to breathe underwater--she then went 
to McGonagall's office with her other best friend (and true love <g>) 
and learned that he was going to have to be rescued by said clueless 
Harry.  Yeah, she knew they wouldn't let Ron die, but still, it 
must've been scary.  So she is totally thrilled to hear the story 
from Harry.

> And I still think the fact that Ron shows no obvious jealousy over 
the 
> articles linking Harry and Hermione indicates the lack of romantic 
H/H tension 
> (the Ron in my story notwithstanding <g>).

And Harry shows remarkably little embarrassment about them.  He would 
be much more embarrassed if they touched a nerve.


> Also, in all the books, I think that Ron and Hermione spend a lot 
more time 
> together than we see.  Pretty much every time Harry is by himself, 
Ron and 
> Hermione are together.  Whenever Harry comes back from Quidditch 
practice, or 
> Dementor-defense lessons, or whatever, Hermione and Ron are in the 
common room 
> together.'

Looking a little sweaty and disheveled.  <--JOKE!  Pure and 
completely unsupported speculation!

>Maybe 
> Hermione will run off to Bulgaria with Viktor Krum after all, and 
Penny and I 
> can have a suicide pact. <g>

LOL!  I think we better make a contract with these two before OoP 
comes out . . . I'm worried about them.

Amy Z




From kathleen at carr.org  Wed Mar 28 05:43:11 2001
From: kathleen at carr.org (Kathleen Kelly MacMillan)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 00:43:11 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: The Great Semicolon Debate
Message-ID: <200103280633.f2S6Xt614832@ccpl.carr.org>

No: HPFGUIDX 15342

Amy Z wrote:
>Okay, will someone please give a message # on The Great Semicolon
>Debate?  I've searched the archives for "semicolon" and turned up
>only a post from CMC about how JKR's sentences are nicely complex.  I
>agree, but it wasn't what I was looking for.  I have taken to reading
>through the canon in search of sentences that contain semicolons and
>can be, however remotely, imagined as being SHIP-related.  Save me!

I just tried searching too and couldn't find a thing, no matter how I tried 
it.  Oh well.  Here it is, in a nutshell (Penny, please jump in if I'm 
misrepresenting anything):  It came up when talking about Hermione's annoyance 
whenever Fleur pays attention to Ron.  Someone [probably Penny :)] had pointed 
out that in both instances (after the 2nd Task, and in the Entrance Hall 
waiting for the carriages), Fleur kisses (in the first instance) or smiles at 
(in the second) BOTH Harry and Ron, so Hermione's annoyance could just as well 
be interpreted as being annoyed at Fleur paying attention to Harry.  I 
responded that in the first instance, I could maybe see the point, but in the 
second, the passage reads:

"It's very good already," said Ron, in a strangled sort of voice.  Fleur 
smiled at him; Hermione scowled." (GoF, UK ed, p. 628)

I then went on to say something like "That's semicolon!  These things are 
connected!" and we debated the meaning of punctuation.  Really, I think it 
mostly gets mentioned as an example of the ridiculous lengths to which 
shippers go to prove our points.  That JKR--so controversial, even her 
punctuation inspires debate. :)

To the Mod Squad--maybe this could be added to the page with all the theories 
and acronyms listed?  It seems like the question has come up a few times from 
new folks.

Cap'n Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who is going to bed, if you people would just stop being so darn interesting!




From love2write_11098 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 06:35:41 2001
From: love2write_11098 at yahoo.com (love2write_11098 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 06:35:41 -0000
Subject: New elements
In-Reply-To: <99rshp+9p7e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99s0nt+6j62@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15343

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> <sorry if this is a repeat--it got eaten the first time>
> 
> Every once in awhile someone raises the question of why we don't 
hear 
> about this or that thing until a later book.  E.g. why do we never 
> hear the term "Death Eaters" until GoF?  Is this a Flint on JKR's 
> part? etc.

While I agree with most of your observations -- that most of the 
things just come up when they come up and that it makes the books 
more interesting -- I think that "Death Eaters" has a very specific 
reason for not being brought up as early as PS/SS: it's too dark. The 
early books, especially PS and CoS, are not nearly as scary as PoA 
and especially GoF.

I mean, think about the term. Death Eater. What kind of images does 
that bring to mind? It's an ugly term for people who do ugly things --
 we don't find out just *how* ugly until GoF. We don't get the Dark 
Mark until then either, because, as we can infere from the 
conversation between Mr. Weaseley and Harry, Ron, etc. at the World 
Cup, it just isn't something that's brought up much in conversation. 
The first war with Voldemort is not something that people like to 
dwell on, which is probably why Harry doesn't learn all this stuff 
until he absolutely has to.

Stacy




From meckelburg at foni.net  Wed Mar 28 07:13:19 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 07:13:19 -0000
Subject: New elements
In-Reply-To: <99s0nt+6j62@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99s2uf+u17a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15344

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., love2write_11098 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
 
> > Every once in awhile someone raises the question of why we don't 
> hear 
> > about this or that thing until a later book.  E.g. why do we never 
> > hear the term "Death Eaters" until GoF?  Is this a Flint on JKR's 
> > part? etc.
> 
> While I agree with most of your observations -- that most of the 
> things just come up when they come up and that it makes the books 
> more interesting -- I think that "Death Eaters" has a very specific 
> reason for not being brought up as early as PS/SS: it's too dark. 
> etc. 

I agree with both of you - Some things come up as JKR writes along and 
the books DO get darker each time.
Another Point is that most things that are new to Harry are perfectly 
normal to the rest of the wizarding world. One of Ron's most frequent 
remark is "I forgot, you can't know". They don't tell Harry 
everything, because they assume that he, like themselves, has allways 
known.




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Wed Mar 28 03:27:41 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 03:27:41 -0000
Subject: Squibs & Muggles (Was Re: Mrs. Figg as babysitter)
In-Reply-To: <99rei9+otid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99rlnd+effj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15345

> Christian Stub? wrote:

> I suspect most, or at least some, squibs would still be living in the 
> magical world - they'd been brought up there, and letting them out 
> into the muggle world would be troublesome for them, to say the 
> least.  Theya re also a certain risk when it comes to letting 
> knowledge of the magical world slip out to the muggles.  Available 
> jobs would include selling tickets at the Knight-bus and other tasks 
> that do not require magical knowledge.
<snip>

I don't know about that one.  Where, for example, do the Finnegans live 
(Magic or Muggle community)?  Dad Finnegan is a Muggle (PS/SS - can't 
find the reference), but Seamus has had magical experiences.  He claims 
in chapter 9 to have spent a good deal of childhood "zooming around the 
countryside on his broomstick".  That may be an exaggeration, but he 
had no need to lie about being able to fly.  He also played wizard 
games (the chess set Harry plays with in chapter 12 - before Christmas 
- belongs to Seamus).
It would seem to me that Squibs might benefit from nonmagical solutions 
- and why reinvent the wheel when Muggles have already done it for you?  
I also believe that it would be easier for Squibs to live in Muggle 
communities than for witches.  Mom Finnegan must have lived in a Muggle 
community for at least long enough to "get" Dad so I'm figuring magical 
folks live in and interact with the Muggle world as they see fit (as 
long as it doesn't break some statute).  
I also don't agree that Squibs would be a security risk -- at least not 
more of one that Muggle-born witches and wizards.  Their parents and 
siblings know about magic - and I don't suppose the authorities would 
forbid the Muggle borns who chose to to return home (marry the girl/boy 
next door that s/he used to beat up) once they've completed their 
training.
I hope I've made sense.
a.





From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 06:40:06 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 06:40:06 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & Ginny, Hermione & the Boys
In-Reply-To: <200103280536.f2S5aY629167@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <99s106+pfa1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15346


 *faint gurgling noises* A shipper debate? *Another* one? Sheesh. And 
I was just trying to remember why I have this list on web view. Now I 
remember.... ^_~ Oookay, the liberal Marketing Director of the Good 
Ship R/H will jump in with her views.


  > Cassie wrote:
> >Really? I've never gotten any sense that Hermione and Ginny were in
> >any way close, and have always felt a little bad for Hermione that
> >she doesn't have female friends. I don't get the slightest sense > 
> >that she confides in Ginny -- there's never been a single scene in 
> >which we see her hanging out with Ginny casually and for fun; she 
> >never sits with her at meals or in the common room or the library.
> 

 Heh, well, this is a monumental moment. I have to agree. I don't 
think they are good friends. Girls at that age tend to be like 
Lavender and Parvati - almost always together, talking about boys, 
just enjoying each other's companionship. I don't think that we have 
any evidence at all that Hermione and Ginny have this kind of 
relationship - Harry *never* notices them talking or anything. They 
do have breakfast once, but I hardly think you can claim that *that* 
is indicating they have a strong friendship. 

> 
> Penny wrote:
> >There's plenty of H/H evidence
> >in GoF too, you know. Her answer was quite ambiguous in my mind.
> >Hermione's feelings are quite open to more than one 
>interpretation.<g>
> 

 You know, I want to know why it all boils down to Hermione's 
feelings. What about Harry? Doesn't he matter in this relationship at 
all? Hel-*lo* Farmer In The Dell. He might not care for Hermione at 
all, and be nursing a crush on Millicent Bulstrode.


> Penny again:
> >She couldn't be bothered to talk to Viktor Krum, who had
> >just saved her from the lake & declared his feelings for her, 
because
> >she was too busy cheering for & talking to *Harry*.
>
Kathy:
> OK, if I were 14 and had some guy just declare his feelings to me 
>after a VERY public display of his affection, and I was unsure how I 
>felt about him and was feeling really uncomfortable, I would find 
>someone else to talk to quickly too.  And I might busy myself 
>cheering for my best friend as an excuse to avoid talking to lover-
>boy too.  But maybe that's just me.

 Ah. Took the words right out of my mouth. I think that Hermione 
probably feels a little awkward around Viktor - he's eighteen, he's 
smitten with her, she doesn't really know him... That could be pretty 
weird, considering her social life seems almost exclusively limited 
to Harry, Ron, and a few other Gryffindors (heh, it's arguable 
there's also Draco and some assorted Ravenclaws, but let's not go 
there). I think that Hermione was feeling trapped - and let's not 
forget that no matter how hot to trot she is with anyone, Harry is 
one of her best friends, and she probably wants him to win more than 
her random Bulgarian Lover... Not to offend the V/H fans. ^_^

> 
> Catherine wrote:
> >(But please don't beat me up over this, I'm not objecting to H/H,
> >just think the other is more likely).
> 
> Oooo, I'm objecting!  Go ahead, beat me up!  (Kidding!  I'm 
kidding!  Don't 
> ram the ship, please!)
> 

 Tsk, tsk, tsk. Really, Captain. Trying to get us all killed? 
(Whisper: But I must agree...)

> Penny wrote:
> >Well, she eats all her meals with Harry; they walk to class 
together;
> >they sit in class together; they leave class together -- there is 
no
> >mention of her spending much time with Ron.
> 

 Kathy Quoted:
> "Hermione was furious with the pair of them; she went from one to 
the other, 
> trying to force them to talk to each other..." (GoF, UK ed, p. 277)

....and this is just pointing out, once again, that the books are 
from Harry's point of view and so therefore we don't know what 
exactly Ron and Hermione are doing when he isn't around. *snerk* I 
like what that implies. <g>

> 
> Amy Z:
> >But it has enough freight that if H/H becomes real, we'll all look 
back and
> >say "Yeah! Viktor said she talked about him a lot!" (All of us
> >except Kathy aka Elanor, of course, who will have hanged herself 
from
> >the yardarm or whatever it is they hanged Billy Budd from.)
> 
> LOL!  Oh, dear, am I *that* vehement?  :)  I suppose I am.  Oh 
well.  Maybe  Hermione will run off to Bulgaria with Viktor Krum 
after all, and Penny and I can have a suicide pact. <g>

 ROFL! Yes, Kathy, you *are* that vehement. But don't worry, I'll be 
hanging from the nearest tree, too. I've just invested too much 
energy into insisting that it *will* be R/H. Frankly, I don't know 
what I'm going to do when Draco and Harry don't get together. *weeps 
because she likes odd pairings*


Emily [MC, Ginny Love]
Marketing Director of the Good Ship R/H
Random Ranking Officer on SS Slash D/H




From meckelburg at foni.net  Wed Mar 28 07:26:40 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 07:26:40 -0000
Subject: House Elves' Real Power
In-Reply-To: <F120sjbmDoP6j8oUwoy0000dfa2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <99s3ng+mmvh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15347

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "crystal white" <jellycrys at h...> wrote:
> Here's an interesting theory - I got into a discussion about who 
will be on 
> what side when (IMO) Voldemort really starts going again.  I think 
Dobby 
> especially will be on the side of HP.  Doubly so when one considers 
how much 
> Dobby disliked working for the Malfoys.  Winky, on the other hand, 
poses a 
> puzzle to me.  She is working for Hogwarts (w/o pay, as she likes 
it) and 
> yet she still refuses to say anything even slightly derogatory about 
the 
> Crouches.  I don't think these seemingly weak characters should be 
> overlooked.  Remember at the end of CoS when Malfoy Sr. started to 
go after 
> HP for "losing him his house elf"......Dobby said "You will not harm 
Harry 
> Potter" and then flung Malfoy Sr. down the stairs.  This is definite 
> forshadowing to me.

I agree with you, that the House elves are not as weak as they look, 
just because they serve wizards. In GoF ForG said they had their own 
quite powerful magic, but cannot normally use them against their 
masters. Well, Dobby has decided to do what he thought was right long 
before he was freed. He punished himself for doing so, but went his 
way nevertheless, so maybe he can convince other House-Elves who work 
for evil wizards to turn on their masters too and support Dumbledore 
or Harry.

mecki
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 08:03:48 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:03:48 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & Ginny, Hermione & the Boys
In-Reply-To: <99s106+pfa1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99s5t4+orc0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15348

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Slytherin_Daughter at y... wrote:
> 
>  *faint gurgling noises* A shipper debate? *Another* one? Sheesh. 
And 
> I was just trying to remember why I have this list on web view. Now 
I 
> remember.... ^_~ Oookay, the liberal Marketing Director of the Good 
> Ship R/H will jump in with her views.
> 
> 
> 
>  You know, I want to know why it all boils down to Hermione's 
> feelings. What about Harry? Doesn't he matter in this relationship 
at 
> all? Hel-*lo* Farmer In The Dell. He might not care for Hermione at 
> all, and be nursing a crush on Millicent Bulstrode.
 
One of my reasons for being R/H is that we know Harry's POV - he has 
had a crush on Cho since PoA (or was it CoS?).  And there's Ginny in 
the equation too.  I know, I know,(!) that Harry hasn't noticed her 
yet, but when you consider how much time Hermione spends with Ginny 
(at the Burrow/World Cup etc) I would find it strange if Hermione 
hadn't noticed Ginny's crush.  She's just too sensitive as to what 
other people are really thinking and feeling not too.  And she 
certainly wouldn't discard it as a silly schoolgirl crush, as there 
is no indication that she looks down at Ginny in that way.  (I am 
also revising my opinion on the way the boys and Ginny interact, 
after rereading the way in which Ginny comforts Ron after the Fleur 
incident,  it is not as clear cut as previously).
Therefore if she did have feelings for Harry, I think she would think 
long and hard about how it would affect other people around them.  
And I still stick to the fact that she shows absolutely no concern 
over the possibility of Cho/Harry (if she knew about it - I can't 
find a mention), whereas she does over Fleur.  Harry has shown 
absolutely no interest in Fleur whatsoever, whereas Ron is in danger 
of making a fool of himself whenever she is around.
Catherine

> > Penny wrote:
> > >Well, she eats all her meals with Harry; they walk to class 
> together;
> > >they sit in class together; they leave class together -- there 
is 
> no
> > >mention of her spending much time with Ron.
> > 
> 
>  Kathy Quoted:
> > "Hermione was furious with the pair of them; she went from one to 
> the other, 
> > trying to force them to talk to each other..." (GoF, UK ed, p. 
277)
> 
> ....and this is just pointing out, once again, that the books are 
> from Harry's point of view and so therefore we don't know what 
> exactly Ron and Hermione are doing when he isn't around. *snerk* I 
> like what that implies. <g>
> 
And, although Hermione is helping Harry with the first task, she 
still has time to see Ron.  She probably sees Harry as the loner, as 
Ron is hanging around with Seamus and Dean, or his brothers, and 
Harry is very much in the position she was in last year.  Harry needs 
her help at this stage and she makes time for him. And she still 
tries to get them together - look at the attempt to get them to meet 
in the Hogsmeade pub
Catherine again






From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 08:09:52 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:09:52 -0000
Subject: House Elves' Real Power
In-Reply-To: <99s3ng+mmvh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99s68g+ij2k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15349

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "crystal white" <jellycrys at h...> wrote:
> > Here's an interesting theory - I got into a discussion about who 
> will be on 
> > what side when (IMO) Voldemort really starts going again.  I 
think 
> Dobby 
> > especially will be on the side of HP.  Doubly so when one 
considers 
> how much 
> > Dobby disliked working for the Malfoys.  Winky, on the other 
hand, 
> poses a 
> > puzzle to me.  She is working for Hogwarts (w/o pay, as she likes 
> it) and 
> > yet she still refuses to say anything even slightly derogatory 
about 
> the 
> > Crouches.  I don't think these seemingly weak characters should 
be 
> > overlooked.  Remember at the end of CoS when Malfoy Sr. started 
to 
> go after 
> > HP for "losing him his house elf"......Dobby said "You will not 
harm 
> Harry 
> > Potter" and then flung Malfoy Sr. down the stairs.  This is 
definite 
> > forshadowing to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Winky's main loyalty towards Barty 
Crouch Snr, not junior.  If I remember rightly, (and I know I should 
look it up but..) when she finds out the Barty jnr murdered his own 
father she is absolutely devastated.  I know she has been looking 
after BCjnr all this time, but doesn't this final piece have the 
effect of dividing her loyalties?  If indeed she is still loyal to 
jnr, as it was his actions that got her sacked.  (Mind you, it's 
probably irrelevant now there aren't any Crouchs left).  Anyway, I 
just wanted to point out that Winky seems slightly more ambivalent, 
rather than unswerving loyalty to the Crouch family as a whole.
Catherine

> I agree with you, that the House elves are not as weak as they 
look, 
> just because they serve wizards. In GoF ForG said they had their 
own 
> quite powerful magic, but cannot normally use them against their 
> masters. Well, Dobby has decided to do what he thought was right 
long 
> before he was freed. He punished himself for doing so, but went his 
> way nevertheless, so maybe he can convince other House-Elves who 
work 
> for evil wizards to turn on their masters too and support 
Dumbledore 
> or Harry.
> 
> mecki
> > 
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Wed Mar 28 08:32:53 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:32:53 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & Ginny, Hermione & the Boys
In-Reply-To: <99s5t4+orc0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99s7jl+1e5l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15350

I'm new, so forgive me. I know, I know, how typical is that? :) I'm 
such an oldbie at several other message boards, it feels strange 
being new again.

Anyway, I came here to discuss things like Ashwinders and Centaurs 
and Mundugus Fletcher, but this romance debate is just to 
interesting. 

I always thought that Ron would end up with Hermione. Ever since he 
insulted her that day in Book I, it's seemed like the only logical 
way to conclude the two character archs. As for Harry, Am I the only 
one who wanted to see him end up with Cedric? Ah, well.. It's too 
late for that now anyway. 




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 08:51:23 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:51:23 -0000
Subject: SHIP  R/H: Old ground?
Message-ID: <99s8mb+nvqa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15351

And another thing... the argument:
"Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not 
as a last resort!" (Hermione to Ron).
Please tell me that gives a pretty strong indication!  Surely she is 
saying that if Ron had asked her first, because he wanted to go with 
her, not because he was desperate, she would have preferred to have 
gone with him instead of VK.
The context (which I admit we don't know as its H's POV again) isn't 
clear, but isn't Ron masking jealousy by rehashing the *fraternising 
with the enemy* argument?  And Harry doesn't seem to be part of the 
equation.  If Ron was saying that Hermione should have gone with 
either him or Harry instead of VK, then wouldn't Hermione have said 
*one of you ask me*...
The Harry POV is interesting at the end as well: "he somehow thought 
that Hermione had got the point much better than Ron had."  Doesn't 
this indicate that he has a pretty good idea what's afoot?

Once again, I apologise if this is old ground, but it seems 
appropriate seeing as the whole thing has surfaced again (and yes, I 
know it's all my fault.)

Catherine




From meckelburg at foni.net  Wed Mar 28 08:59:37 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:59:37 -0000
Subject: James and Lilly a ghost?
Message-ID: <99s95p+srrj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15352

You've probably discussed this at length before, but I only joined 
this group yesterday and I desperatl want to know:
Why do some people change into ghosts when they die and others don't?
We know Myrtle and Nick died by force, but Prof.Binns just fell asleep 
in his Armchair. Myrtle and Binns died in Hogwarts, but I don't think 
Nick was executed there, so why has he, and some of the other 
House-Ghosts come to hogwarts after their death?
I hope I am not just bringing up really old stories and am anxiously 
waiting for answers

Mecki




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 09:06:34 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:06:34 -0000
Subject: Beasts in the "Schoolbooks" to attack Harry?
In-Reply-To: <99q8du+2nm9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99s9iq+7q91@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15353

Well... he's already had to face Dragons, Dementors, Kappas, 
Merpeople, a Sphinx, trolls, the dreaded Acromantula, the Basilisk, 
and Blast Ended Skrewts(!) - there doesn't seem much left!

I guess there is the Chimaera, the Graphorn, the Griffin, the Kelpie, 
the Lethifold (although this isn't likely as only found (at least so 
far) in Tropical climates), the Manticore, the Nundu, the Occamy the 
Quintaped, the Runespoor (although we've already done snakes with the 
Basilisk) and the Yeti (how unlikely is that!).

Of all of them, I think the Kelpie and the Quintaped are most likely -
even if for purely geographical reasons.  Both are found in 
Scotland.  Having said that the  Acromantula was not supposed to be 
found here in the UK (thanks Hagrid!) so we can't rule anything out...

Whatever happens though, it is most likely to be tied in with the 
Voldemort resurgence, so which would be most useful to him?  (Unless 
JKR develops another interesting Hagrid subplot!).

Catherine
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> In "Fantastic Beasts" several really dangerous animals are hidden 
in 
> Forbidden- forest sections. What creature do you think Harry will 
have 
> to face in the next books ( because or in spite of Hagrid?)?




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Mar 28 09:14:38 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:14:38 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & Ginny, Hermione & the Boys
In-Reply-To: <99s106+pfa1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99sa1u+f8v6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15354

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Slytherin_Daughter at y... wrote:
> 
>  Heh, well, this is a monumental moment. I have to agree. I don't 
> think they are good friends. Girls at that age tend to be like 
> Lavender and Parvati - almost always together, talking about boys, 
> just enjoying each other's companionship. I don't think that we 
have 
> any evidence at all that Hermione and Ginny have this kind of 
> relationship - Harry *never* notices them talking or anything. They 
> do have breakfast once, but I hardly think you can claim that 
*that*  is indicating they have a strong friendship. 

I agree. (Oooh, it's practically a wuv fest.) All this business 
about "Well, maybe Ginny and Hermione hang out together when Harry 
isn't around" makes me think of Surfeit of Curses, where Draco and 
Hermione spend all their time together when Harry's not around, and 
Heidi makes it amazingly believable, so that you start thinking "Oh, 
THAT'S where Hermione was at that time." IMHO there's about as much 
evidence that Hermione spends a lot of time with Neville or someone 
in canon as that she spends it with Ginny. I frankly think Ginny 
knowing who Hermione's date was and not telling was an example of 
Plot Device Monster. JKR needed us to know that Hermione really had a 
date, so we could wonder who it was along with Harry and Ron, and 
Ginny seemed the least totally unlikely to know that information. I 
still think Hermione's friends are Harry and Ron, and Ginny, while 
she may be friendly with her, is extremely peripheral.
> 
Em: You know, I want to know why it all boils down to Hermione's 
feelings. What about Harry? Doesn't he matter in this relationship at 
all? Hel-*lo* Farmer In The Dell. He might not care for Hermione at   
all, and be nursing a crush on Millicent Bulstrode.

Erm...the books are told from Harry's POV. If he had a mad crush on 
Milicent, we'd probably know. <g> And the H/H argument sort of 
follows from that. The H/H ers state that we know Harry's feelings, 
we know he isn't consciously interested in Hermione romantically at 
all. However, they see canon evidence that Hermione has interest in 
Harry. This doesn't mean that they don't think Harry matters; just 
that they believe that Harry and Hermione would make a good couple 
and that it would be nice if he returned her interest at some point. 
Especially considering that his feelings for Cho are basically an 
adolescent crush that will go nowhere (sorry, H/C shippers) due to 
Cedric's death and various other factors. (And JKR did say everyone 
would fall for the wrong people in Book 4. *cough* Ron *cough*). I'm 
less an H/H er than simply an anti R/H er. It makes me yuk. Since I 
know Draco/Hermione is wildly unlikely in canon, I'd rather they all 
found non-Trio people to date.  
> 
Emily: Ah. Took the words right out of my mouth. I think that 
Hermione 
> probably feels a little awkward around Viktor - he's eighteen, he's 
> smitten with her, she doesn't really know him...snip... I think 
that Hermione was feeling trapped (snip).  

Well, I don't think even the most vehement R/H er would argue that 
Hermione doesn't love Harry at least as a *friend.* IMHO, she was 
busy cheering for Harry and ignoring Viktor because she was really 
happy for Harry and really invested in his victory. She really, 
really cares about Harry. She wore herself nearly to death trying to 
help him prepare for the First Task, and practically gouged her face 
off with fear during it in case anything happened to him. Perhaps it 
had something to do with feeling trapped (I doubt it) but my reading 
of that scene was that she was sincerely distracted clapping for and 
cheering for Harry, and while that might have significance 
romantically, it's also the act of a loyal best friend which is what 
Hermione first and foremost is, and you don't have to be any kind of 
shipper to feel that. I think the "feeling trapped" reading sells her 
a bit short.


Em:....and this is just pointing out, once again, that the books are 
> from Harry's point of view and so therefore we don't know what 
> exactly Ron and Hermione are doing when he isn't around. *snerk* I 
> like what that implies. <g>

What you mean they've been snogging passionately behind the scenes 
all this time and Ron STILL didn't ask her to the Ball or notice her 
teeth? Lord, he's even more of a gormless cad than I thought. <vbeg>


Em: Frankly, I don't know  what I'm going to do when Draco and Harry 
don't get together. *weeps  because she likes odd pairings*


Well, I'm with you on the Draco/Harry. I think it's unlikely that the 
canon will er, tend that way, but we can dream. *squinches her eyes 
shut and dreams of favorite pairings: Draco/Harry, Ginny/Neville and 
Ron/Giant Squid.*

Cassie




From meckelburg at foni.net  Wed Mar 28 09:29:52 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:29:52 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
Message-ID: <99saug+aagp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15355

Talking of SHIPs (again!) :What about Ginny and Harry?

We know Ginny has a crush on Harry , but Harry just sees in her 
the"little" sister of his best friend. That can change though!! She 
was 10years old, when he first saw her, so it will probably take some 
time till he notices that she is not a kid anymore, but a teenager 
like hiself. And when he does, perhaps he will change his feelings 
from pure friendship to something more. 
(It took him 4years to notice Hermione was a girl though, so perhaps 
he will have left school before that happens (boys))

Mecki




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 09:35:01 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:35:01 -0000
Subject: SHIP  R/H: Old ground? (contd.)
Message-ID: <99sb85+k84c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15356

At the risk of deeply upsetting all those R/H Shippers out there, 
particularly as you all probably think I'm firmly in your camp, I 
just wanted to clarify my own position.

I do not want Ron and Hermione to get together.  Despite always 
feeling sorry for him (no money, jealous of Harry, seriously 
embarrassing dress robes) I think Ron acts like a gormless twit 
throughout most of GoF, and that he needs to do a lot of growing up 
before he should expect Hermione to even look at him that way.  
However, there's no accounting for taste, particularly when put in 
the context of teenage crushes/relationships, and on all the canon 
evidence so far, I still think it's the way JKR is heading.

(I myself when Hermione's age had a crush on an inarticulate, 
unintelligent, pudding faced boy who had seriously bad hair and a 
severe case of halitosis.  I rest my case...).

Catherine
If this is posted twice, I apologise, something went wrong out 
there...




From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 10:41:33 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:41:33 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
In-Reply-To: <99o3sa+6i7p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99sf4t+m9dn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15357

Witches and Wizards live considerably longer than muggles. Hagrid is 
in his 60's and Dumbledore is over 100. 11 years isn't as long a time 
as it is to muggles. Rowling only sneaks in what she wants so we may 
find out she prepared Harry a little. We also do not know if she 
stayed in the house that often. She could apparate to Hogsmeade 
occationally. I agree that we don't really know if she broke her leg. 
She may have stopped an attack or just wanted Harry to go to the zoo. 

Two questions: 
1) What about Mrs. Figg teaching DADA? If Dumbledore trusted her 
there she must be good. 
2) What about marrying a muggle even though you may double thier 
lifespan? I don't know if I would like it. 






From zsenya at sugarquill.com  Wed Mar 28 11:09:46 2001
From: zsenya at sugarquill.com (zsenya at sugarquill.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:09:46 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione and Krum...
In-Reply-To: <99rhl2+f669@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99sgpq+3pm7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15358

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00 at y...> wrote:
> Take this scene with the trio at the Yule Ball in GoF-
> Ron:"...Fraternizing with the enemy that's what you're doing!"
> Hermione: (mouth falls open) "Don't be stupid!"
> <snip>
> Ron:"I s'pose he asked you to come with him while you were both in 
> the Library?"
> Hermione:"Yes he did, so what?"
> Ron:"What Happened- trying to get him to join SPEW, were you?"
> Hermione:"No I wasn't! If you really want to know, he- he said he'd 
> been coming to the library everyday to try and talk to me..."
> 
> I could go one but this is my general point. Ron is overtly jealous 
> but doesn't realise it. Hermione just seems to be suprised at Ron's 
> reactions. She can't believe that he is that upset over her going 
> with Krum. If she had planned to go with Krum just to make Ron 
> jealous would she really be so suprised at his reaction?

Zsenya writes: See-here's where all we shippers get bogged down and 
argumentative.  I would read that scene as not that Hermione 
is "just" surprised at Ron's reaction - and that she is surprised 
that *that's* what Ron has chosen to get upset about.  In other 
words, maybe she wanted Ron to say "hey you really do look great and 
I wish I'd asked you" but instead, he's accusing her of becoming some 
sort of double-agent.  In that scene she also mentions that she 
thought Ron would be happy - him being a big Krum fan and all, but 
now suddenly, Ron is considering Krum to be "The Enemy"

On the Comic Relief chat:  Well, I was the one who posed the 
question, and I wish now I'd worded it a bit differently. I 
specifically asked if Hermione liked Ron as more than a friend 
(because I think Ron's feelings are totally obvious).  I *should* 
have said, "there are debates out there about Hermione's feelings, 
some say she has a secret crush on Harry, others think that it's 
Krum.  I'm wondering if it's Ron that she truly likes" or something 
along those lines.  JKR said that the answer was in GoF, (another one 
of her delightful and ambiguous answers) which makes me happy, 
because I know what evidence I can now use, but really, that brings 
us around to the whole semi-colon debate, doesn't it?<vbg>

Zsenya






From meckelburg at foni.net  Wed Mar 28 12:26:05 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:26:05 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg as babysitter
In-Reply-To: <99sf4t+m9dn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99sl8t+a2pd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15359

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> Witches and Wizards live considerably longer than muggles. Hagrid is 
> in his 60's and Dumbledore is over 100. 11 years isn't as long a 
time 
> as it is to muggles. Rowling only sneaks in what she wants so we may 
> find out she prepared Harry a little. We also do not know if she 
> stayed in the house that often. She could apparate to Hogsmeade 
> occationally. I agree that we don't really know if she broke her 
leg. 
> She may have stopped an attack or just wanted Harry to go to the 
zoo. 
> 
> Two questions: 
> 1) What about Mrs. Figg teaching DADA? If Dumbledore trusted her 
> there she must be good. 
> 2) What about marrying a muggle even though you may double thier 
> lifespan? I don't know if I would like it.

I wrote this reply already about 20 minutes ago, but something went 
wrong, so I hope it wont be double:

to 1) Mrs. Figg would probably be a great DADA - Teacher because she 
was in Dumbledore's old Gang against V long before Harry has met V. 
(the gang was probably not necessary after V has vanished?). This is 
one of the main reasons why IMO Mrs. Figg can't be a Sqib.

to 2)  Dumbledore's 150 (JKR confirmed) but in the Muggle-world there 
are also many couples with very different ages leaving widows even at 
young ages, non- natural courses are most often in the Muggle-world 
too ( Car- accidents etc.). At least non-magical Death-Reasons apart 
from old age are not a problem anymore. Anyway, I don't think a 
wizard/witch will tell somebody who he is ( Hey you in the blue dress, 
I'm 30, single and a witch.I'll turn you into a mouse if you don't 
marry me! Does that sound likely?). The relationship must be well on 
the way at least, maybe the mariage already complete -Is there such a 
thing as a divorce in the magical world? I don't know- so most couples 
will probably push that problem far away.

Forgive my spelling
Mecki




From meckelburg at foni.net  Wed Mar 28 12:47:21 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:47:21 -0000
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semikolon debate
Message-ID: <99smgp+f97o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15360

In your discussion about "The great semikolon debate" Cassie 
mentionend fleur kissing Ron. Correct me if I'm wrong but in my book 
(German vers. Pg.528) Fleur rushes to Harry and gives him a kiss, then 
Hermione frowns. This would mean Hermione wants to draw attention to 
Harry, not to Ron

Mecki




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 14:19:43 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:19:43 -0000
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semikolon debate
In-Reply-To: <99smgp+f97o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99srtv+sdf0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15361

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> In your discussion about "The great semikolon debate" Cassie 
> mentionend fleur kissing Ron. Correct me if I'm wrong but in my 
book 
> (German vers. Pg.528) Fleur rushes to Harry and gives him a kiss, 
then 
> Hermione frowns. This would mean Hermione wants to draw attention 
to 
> Harry, not to Ron
> 
> Mecki

In the English version it says:-
"Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his face 
burn....), then said to Ron, "And you, too - you 'elped-"
Fleur swooped down on him, too, and kissed him.  Hermione looked 
simply furious..."

JKR only says Hermione looks furious after Fleur has kissed Ron.  I 
think that this is a prime example of JKR dropping hints.  Otherwise 
she should have put the Hermione bit in before Ron was mentioned.  
And, if you think about it, what is more natural than Fleur to react 
by giving Harry a kiss after she thinks that he has saved her 
sister's life?  

I know there is the take that Hermione is just generally jealous of 
Fleur, but I do think that she reacts more strongly regarding Ron 
because she knows the effect Fleur has on him, not Harry.

Just a thought.
Catherine




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Mar 28 14:30:42 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:30:42 -0000
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semicolon debate
In-Reply-To: <99srtv+sdf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ssii+v91c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15362

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:

> 
> In the English version it says:-
> "Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his 
face 
> burn....), then said to Ron, "And you, too - you 'elped-"
> Fleur swooped down on him, too, and kissed him.  Hermione looked 
> simply furious..."
> 
> JKR only says Hermione looks furious after Fleur has kissed Ron.  I 
> think that this is a prime example of JKR dropping hints.  
Otherwise 
> she should have put the Hermione bit in before Ron was mentioned.  
> And, if you think about it, what is more natural than Fleur to 
react 
> by giving Harry a kiss after she thinks that he has saved her 
> sister's life?  

Then what could be more natural than FLeur, who after all is French, 
and therefore may be more prone to kissing as a thank you than the 
more reserved Brits are, kissing Ron because he helped? FLeur doesn't 
know that Ron did nothing until they got up to the surface - and 
neither, at that moment, does Hermione.
Plus, going back to the fail-safe Harry's Perspective theory, when 
he's being smooched by Fleur, he's more conscious of his face burning 
and the surprise he's feeling, and also possibly affected by her 
Veelaness, her being so physically close and all, whereas when Ron 
gets his Fleur-kisses, Harry's more conscious of the others around 
him, including Hermione. If it said, "Hermione's mouth twisted into a 
frown" then you could easily percieve it as a reaction to Ron, 
because that would suggest that she hadn't been frowning before, but 
in the text (I'm not talking subtext here) there is nothing to 
suggest that she didn't look furious the whole time Fleur was around.




From meckelburg at foni.net  Wed Mar 28 14:31:44 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:31:44 -0000
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semikolon debate
In-Reply-To: <99srtv+sdf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99sskg+pknq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15363

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> > In your discussion about "The great semikolon debate" Cassie 
> > mentionend fleur kissing Ron. Correct me if I'm wrong but in my 
> book 
> > (German vers. Pg.528) Fleur rushes to Harry and gives him a kiss, 
> then 
> > Hermione frowns. This would mean Hermione wants to draw attention 
> to 
> > Harry, not to Ron
> > 
> > Mecki
> 
> In the English version it says:-
> "Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his face 
> burn....), then said to Ron, "And you, too - you 'elped-"
> Fleur swooped down on him, too, and kissed him.  Hermione looked 
> simply furious..."
> 
> JKR only says Hermione looks furious after Fleur has kissed Ron.  I 
> think that this is a prime example of JKR dropping hints.  Otherwise 
> she should have put the Hermione bit in before Ron was mentioned....

Of course, you are right. In read the english version last summer, 
before the translation came out, but reread the book in german twice 
afterwards ( my English is quite good, but a 700Page  book in a 
different language is really hard work). I looked up the passage now 
and found a completly different scene than in the translation. The 
first thing I'll do when the kids are in bed (in about 3hours) will be 
to write an outraging letter to the german publisher. I'm furious !! 
Thanks for correcting me

Mecki




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 15:04:25 2001
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (brandgwen at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:04:25 -0000
Subject: New elements
In-Reply-To: <99s2uf+u17a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99suhp+gtoh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15364

Amy Z wrote:
>One answer is that PS/SS would have been 900 pages long if she'd
made it a comprehensive tour of the wizarding world; another is that 
JKR is spacing them out to give us new delights in each book.

Stacy wrote:
>I think that "Death Eaters" has a very specific reason for not being 
brought up as early as PS/SS: it's too dark. 

meckelburg wrote:
>They don't tell Harry everything, because they assume that he, like 
themselves, has allways known.

I agree with all of the above points.  As the series has progressed, 
it has become increasingly evident that JKR has the whole story
pretty  well mapped out.  I mean, she dropped Sirius into the first 
chapter of PS, then held onto the character until PoA.

However, I would guess that the main reason for these new elements is 
a purely technical one.  By limiting the information given to the 
reader, an author can channel their attention.  The ability to 
maintain the rules of a universe, while restricting exposition to a 
managable level for the reader, is one of the great challenges of 
fantasy writing.

The fact that Harry books are mysteries makes this all the more 
important.  For the reader to even attempt to solve the problem at 
hand, they must be comfortable with their suspension of belief.  If 
their mind is already boggling from too much, or too little, 
extraneous information, the storyline itself will be lost.  

JKR can reveal different aspects of the universe as the book 
progresses, just as she might reveal clues to the bad guy's identity. 
 Giving us a lot of information about Parselmouths in PS would have 
confused the situation at hand, so JRK keeps it for CoS.  However,
the final outcome of the mystery must be within the reader's 
understanding of the universe.  For example, Crouch could not have 
used polyjuice potion in GoF, had Harry not used it in PoA - allowing 
the villain to hide using magic the reader doesn't know about is 
cheating.

Ah, the beauty of a well-written book,
Gwen.




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 15:28:18 2001
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (brandgwen at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:28:18 -0000
Subject: James and Lilly a ghost?
In-Reply-To: <99s95p+srrj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99svui+lrdh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15365

Mecki wrote:
> You've probably discussed this at length before, but I only joined 
this group yesterday...

They probably have, but if so I was elsewhere at the time.

>...and I desperatly want to know:  Why do some people change into 
ghosts when they die and others don't?

As I hear, the official line from JKR is that we will find out in
book 5.  I believe the only hint she dropped was that unhappy people 
are more likely to become ghosts than happy ones.

As for my own suspicions, I think dissatisfaction with and/or lack of 
filfillment in life may contribute to someone becoming a ghost.

> We know Myrtle and Nick died by force, but Prof.Binns just fell 
asleep in his Armchair. 

Binns is a major source of interest to me, also.  I suspect some
deep, dark secret.  After all, he would have been teaching at
Hogwarts while Tom Riddle was a student.

>Myrtle and Binns died in Hogwarts, but I don't think Nick was 
executed there, so why has he, and some of the other House-Ghosts 
come to hogwarts after their death?

I don't think ghosts are trapped where they died.  After all, they
are able to go on Headless Hunts and attend each others' Death Day 
parties.  Myrtle is yet to get over her teasing, so she is still 
moping around the bathroom, as she did as a living person.  Whatever 
it is that got to Binns, I don't think he's over it yet, either.

As to "why Hogwarts"?  Well, why not.  It seems a relatively lively 
place to be dead.

> I hope I am not just bringing up really old stories and am 
anxiously waiting for answers

I think you'll find with most old topics there will be a new idea out 
there, no matter how many times you revisit.  There is nothing wrong 
with asking the classic questions!

Gwen.




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 15:33:40 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:33:40 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <99saug+aagp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99t08k+2scv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15366

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> Talking of SHIPs (again!) :What about Ginny and Harry?
> 
> We know Ginny has a crush on Harry , but Harry just sees in her 
> the"little" sister of his best friend. That can change though!! She 
> was 10years old, when he first saw her, so it will probably take 
some 
> time till he notices that she is not a kid anymore, but a teenager 
> like hiself. And when he does, perhaps he will change his feelings 
> from pure friendship to something more. 
> (It took him 4years to notice Hermione was a girl though, so perhaps 
> he will have left school before that happens (boys))
> 
> Mecki

Ahoy Mecki!

Always good to hear someone else likes H/G!  I'm afraid the captain of 
our little (tiny, teensy, puny) ship is rather the quiet type.  Either 
that, or he's disappeared completely.  ::climbing up on the rigging 
and scanning the sadly sparse deck for signs of Cap'n Jim, then 
raising my eyes to the horizon in case he's fallen overboard somewhere 
along the way::  I haven't seen him around in awhile.  

Anyway, welcome aboard, and don't worry about the complete lack of 
evidence for our ship.  We live on hope here!

kimberly
quite possibly the lone crewmember of the H/G






From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 15:41:58 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:41:58 -0000
Subject: James and Lilly a ghost?
In-Reply-To: <99svui+lrdh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99t0o6+f8jf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15367

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., brandgwen at h... wrote:
> Mecki wrote:
> > You've probably discussed this at length before, but I only 
joined 
> this group yesterday...
> 
> They probably have, but if so I was elsewhere at the time.
> 
> >...and I desperatly want to know:  Why do some people change into 
> ghosts when they die and others don't?
> 
> As I hear, the official line from JKR is that we will find out in
> book 5.  I believe the only hint she dropped was that unhappy 
people 
> are more likely to become ghosts than happy ones.
> 
> As for my own suspicions, I think dissatisfaction with and/or lack 
of 
> filfillment in life may contribute to someone becoming a ghost.
> 
> > We know Myrtle and Nick died by force, but Prof.Binns just fell 
> asleep in his Armchair. 
> 
> Binns is a major source of interest to me, also.  I suspect some
> deep, dark secret.  After all, he would have been teaching at
> Hogwarts while Tom Riddle was a student.
> 
> >Myrtle and Binns died in Hogwarts, but I don't think Nick was 
> executed there, so why has he, and some of the other House-Ghosts 
> come to hogwarts after their death?
> 
> I don't think ghosts are trapped where they died.  After all, they
> are able to go on Headless Hunts and attend each others' Death Day 
> parties.  Myrtle is yet to get over her teasing, so she is still 
> moping around the bathroom, as she did as a living person.  
Whatever 
> it is that got to Binns, I don't think he's over it yet, either.

Also Myrtle has been known to leave Hogwarts.  Doesn't she mention to 
Harry in GoF that she followed Olive Hornby around until she was 
reported to the Ministry of Magic for stalking -  "so I had to come 
back here and live in my toilet."
Poor Myrtle!

Catherine

> As to "why Hogwarts"?  Well, why not.  It seems a relatively lively 
> place to be dead.
> 
> > I hope I am not just bringing up really old stories and am 
> anxiously waiting for answers
> 
> I think you'll find with most old topics there will be a new idea 
out 
> there, no matter how many times you revisit.  There is nothing 
wrong 
> with asking the classic questions!
> 
> Gwen.




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 15:47:26 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:47:26 -0000
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semicolon debate
In-Reply-To: <99ssii+v91c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99t12e+n5vb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15368

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> 
> > 
> > In the English version it says:-
> > "Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his 
> face 
> > burn....), then said to Ron, "And you, too - you 'elped-"
> > Fleur swooped down on him, too, and kissed him.  Hermione looked 
> > simply furious..."
> > 
> > JKR only says Hermione looks furious after Fleur has kissed Ron.  
I 
> > think that this is a prime example of JKR dropping hints.  
> Otherwise 
> > she should have put the Hermione bit in before Ron was mentioned.  
> > And, if you think about it, what is more natural than Fleur to 
> react 
> > by giving Harry a kiss after she thinks that he has saved her 
> > sister's life?  
> 
> Then what could be more natural than FLeur, who after all is French, 
> and therefore may be more prone to kissing as a thank you than the 
> more reserved Brits are, kissing Ron because he helped? FLeur 
doesn't 
> know that Ron did nothing until they got up to the surface - and 
> neither, at that moment, does Hermione.
> Plus, going back to the fail-safe Harry's Perspective theory, when 
> he's being smooched by Fleur, he's more conscious of his face 
> burning and the surprise he's feeling, and also possibly affected by 
> her Veelaness, her being so physically close and all, whereas when 
> Ron gets his Fleur-kisses, Harry's more conscious of the others 
> around him, including Hermione. If it said, "Hermione's mouth 
> twisted into a frown" then you could easily percieve it as a 
> reaction to Ron, because that would suggest that she hadn't been 
> frowning before, but in the text (I'm not talking subtext here) 
> there is nothing to suggest that she didn't look furious the whole 
> time Fleur was around.

All of this makes me wonder all the more...

Why *does* Hermione hate Fleur so much?  She generally gives people 
the benefit of the doubt.  Even Snape, before there was any indication 
that he was anything but horrible.  But with Fleur she just seems to 
detest her from the very beginning.  I don't think she's ever done 
that with anyone else.  So is it only jealousy, or is there something 
else?  




From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 15:49:30 2001
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (brandgwen at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:49:30 -0000
Subject: Lily and James alive?
In-Reply-To: <99q85q+fgkg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99t16a+2vno@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15369

Laurence wrote:
>Ever since reading PoA for the second time I have thorght that there 
may be a possibility that L+J are still alive. Now JKR has always said 
in the chats that 'magic cannot bring people back to life' and many 
people have interpreted this as L+J being dead and never coming back. 
But as fasr as I am aware (and correct me if I am wrong) JKR has never 
said that we will never see a living L+J, only implied it.

Catherine wrote:
>But that would imply, unmistakably, that both Lily and James were 
willing for their son to have the most horrible childhood imaginable. 
I imagine you can justify it if you say it had to happen for Voldemort 
to be defeated, but if this isn't using evil to a good end, I don't 
know what is!

Further, it would mean that James i) allowed his best friend to go to 
Azkaban for an act of treachery he did not commit, ii) allowed his 
second best friend to roam the world, alone, for over ten years and 
iii) allowed the accomplice to the attempted murder of his family go 
free.

While some mystical agenda might cover one or two bad things coming 
from their faked deaths, I don't think it would cover all.  That night 
and the events which followed were catastrophic to their intimate 
circle.  The Potters had better not be in hiding!

Gwen.




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Mar 28 10:53:05 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:53:05 EST5EDT
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron
Message-ID: <28A3736BA0@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15370

Heidi wrote:

>Plus, going back to the fail-safe Harry's Perspective theory, when 
>he's being smooched by Fleur, he's more conscious
>of his face burning and the surprise he's feeling, and also possibly
>affected by her Veelaness, 

Veelaness?  I LOVE IT!

Everyone must try to use this word at least once today in ordinary 
conversation.  And if they give you a strange look....give yourself a 
pat on the back as you walk away, giggling.

Now on with the daily digests.....



Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From margdean at erols.com  Wed Mar 28 16:09:09 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:09:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New elements
References: <99rshp+9p7e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC20CA5.C05BD400@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15371

I think Rowling's gradual introduction of new elements is
masterly, for more reasons than one.  From one angle, stringing
them out from book to book mirrors the way the main/viewpoint
character (Harry) encounters them; when you enter a world or
situation that's new to you, you =don't= normally learn
everything at once.  Furthermore, it's easier for the reader to
assimilate these things if they're introduced a few at a time.

But the other thing I've noticed is that Rowling practically
never just whips something out of her sleeve at the last moment
if it's going to be an important plot device.  Things are planted
carefully in advance.  Remember how Sirius Black is actually
=mentioned= in PS/SS Chapter One, before we have the least
inkling that he's going to be a pivotal character in Book Three? 
We also get Harry's talking to the boa constrictor in PS/SS,
before we have any idea how important that incident will loom in
CoS.  The Polyjuice Potion is important to the plot of CoS, but
that also means it's firmly laid in as background for its use in
GoF -- yet how many of us picked up on that clue, on first
reading?  I know I didn't, though when Barty Jr.'s imposture was
revealed, I could see all the clues leading up to it.  Among
other things, Rowling is a first-class mystery writer!


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>





From monika at darwin.inka.de  Wed Mar 28 16:12:46 2001
From: monika at darwin.inka.de (Monika Huebner)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:12:46 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's friend - Snape's grudge
In-Reply-To: <99qq2v+qni0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MABBIOAJAKBIIEFEFANKAEPDCBAA.monika@darwin.inka.de>

No: HPFGUIDX 15372


> -----Original Message-----
> From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com [mailto:fgcjnk at btinternet.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 9:36 PM

> More evidence maybe that Snape has ALWAYS been loyal to Dumbledore and 
> only became a DE to infiltrate the dark side, rather than that he 
> started out bad but repented and then became a spy?

I don't think so. Snape has always been fascinated by the dark arts,
remember what Sirius said about him in the scene in the cave near
Hogsmeade. Snape knew more curses when he arrived at Hogwarts
than most 7th years. I think he always wanted to be a Death Eater
when he was younger (like his Slytherin friends), but then
something must have happened to make him change sides. We
still don't know anything about his family background or who he
really was before he became Potions Master at Hogwarts. I am
sure we will learn more about it in the next three books.

Monika

------
Book and movie reviews in English and German:
http://sites.inka.de/darwin/indexalt.html 



From bohners at pobox.com  Wed Mar 28 16:25:15 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:25:15 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semicolon debate
References: <99t12e+n5vb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005101c0b7a3$cdbf6a40$988f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 15373

> Why *does* Hermione hate Fleur so much?

She's gorgeous, which is enough to make any girl resentful of another girl
even if they're not actually competing for the same boy(s).  I know I used
to really resent a friend of mine who was constantly the centre of guys'
attention and was always being pestered for dates, because she made me feel
ugly and unwanted by contrast (even though I didn't want any of the specific
guys who were asking her out).

Also, Fleur is full of herself.  (I like her in spite of this for some
strange reason, but it's true nonetheless.)  She is a snob, and she
constantly puts down Hogwarts -- which would be sure to raise Hermione's
hackles, because it's one thing for Hermione as a Hogwarts student and a
house-elf activist to find fault with her school, but it's another thing for
an OUTSIDER to criticize it.

If I were Hermione, I would have a really hard time giving Fleur the benefit
of the doubt either.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj





From bohners at pobox.com  Wed Mar 28 16:20:50 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:20:50 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
References: <99t08k+2scv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005001c0b7a3$cc6817a0$988f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 15374

> Always good to hear someone else likes H/G!

I'm actually surprised that there aren't more people on this particular
ship.

I wouldn't really call myself a "shipper" of any kind, because I frankly
don't care who ends up with whom in Harry's circle of friends -- I trust
JKR's judgment on that point and I am quite sure she won't disappoint me by
pairing her beloved characters up with unworthy partners.

I *do* believe (not because I feel strongly about it being either a good or
a bad idea, but simply because it seems to be there in the text) that Ron
and Hermione are headed for a romantic relationship.  GoF seems to be
hinting at that pretty heavily, what with all the jealousy on Ron's part
when Hermione shows up with Krum at the ball, and an annoyed Hermione
practically inviting Ron to ask her out "next time".  Meanwhile, Hermione's
complete lack of embarrassment over Rita Skeeter's articles indicated quite
clearly to me that she has no idea of viewing Harry in a romantic sense, and
that she is equally confident of Harry having no romantic interest in her.
That could change, of course, but I doubt it.

Getting back to Harry and Ginny, though...

> Anyway, welcome aboard, and don't worry about the complete lack of
> evidence for our ship.  We live on hope here!

I don't think there's a complete lack of evidence.  We have lots of evidence
on Ginny's side of things -- nobody can doubt *her* feelings for Harry.
Presently, it's quite clear that Harry has no interest in Ginny:  but I see
a great deal of potential and some very good reasons for that to change.
Harry is so close to the Weasley family as a whole, and relates so well to
them on the whole, that there's already a bond there.  Ginny being a Weasley
certainly gives her an "in" as far as spending time with Harry and getting
to know him that other girls (with the exception of Hermione) don't have.
It seems to me that Harry and Ginny actually have a very promising
foundation for a lifelong relationship, if Ginny can only get over her infat
uation and learn to see Harry as he really is, and of course if Harry can
get beyond outward appearance (not to say that I think Ginny is necessarily
unattractive, but that she isn't Harry's "type") and start looking at
personality.  Oh, and of course we don't really know much about Ginny's true
personality, so we'll need to see some of that too...

In any case, I think H/G makes more sense and has more of a solid basis than
any other romantic pairing for Harry, with the possible exception of H/H
(but as I've said above, I really think JKR has already dismissed that one
in GoF, courtesy of Rita Skeeter).  Although I wouldn't be surprised if we
end up with an Other relationship for Harry, or even none at all.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar 28 16:33:55 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 16:33:55 -0000
Subject: The Dark Lord's in Disarray (Ch. 36 filk)
Message-ID: <99t3pj+2tu6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15375

The Dark Lord's in Disarray (GoF, Ch. 36)

(To the tune of Cabaret)

Dedicated to Penny Linsenmayer

(The Scene: Madam Pomfey's infirmary. Present are Harry, Snape, 
DUMBLEDORE and CORNELIUS FUDGE, who is deep in denial regarding the 
news of Voldemort's resurrection). 

FUDGE
What good's preparing for an all-out war?
Stick your head in sand and say
The Dark Lord has gone away, oh chum,
The Dark Lord's in disarray

If Barty Crouch Junior should claim he's returned
Dementors, now earn your pay!
The Dark Lord has had his day, oh chum,
The Dark Lord's in disarray

Won't hear you whine
I'll have that banned
I do not care what Potter's saying
Here I stand, there's no gainsaying

No need admitting 
Professorial gloom
That might lead us to dismay
The Dark Lord has gone astray, oh chum
The Dark Lord's in disarray

DUMBLEDORE
Our former rival who is known as Voldy,
I think based from what Bart and Harry told me,
Has rose again and now plots to seize power - 
We've not much time, we scarce can waste an hour

Today you can become our greatest min'ster
By rising to this challenge dark and sin'ster
We'll do once more what was done one Halloween
And snuff out for all time his light so green

FUDGE
I think of Voldy to this very day
But could he have come back? ? simply no way!

What good is making a policy shift?
My poll ratings could decay
The Dark Lord is out of play, oh chum
The Dark Lord's in disarray

I put down all giants, no meetings with them
Giants are never OK
The Dark Lord's been held at bay, oh chum,
The Dark Lord's in disarray

I made my mind up, and I'm not budging
Hear the voice of Cornelius Fudging

(FUDGE unceremoniously thrusts the Triwizards prize upon Harry, and 
prepares to make his exit)

Harry, your winnings, and Professor Snape,
Your Dark Mark do not display
The Dark Lord's returned to clay, oh chum,
He no longer holds his sway, by gum!
I won't end our holiday!  

(Exit)


 - CMC





From brandgwen at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 16:53:04 2001
From: brandgwen at hotmail.com (brandgwen at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 16:53:04 -0000
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semicolon debate
In-Reply-To: <99t12e+n5vb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99t4tg+pep3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15376

Kimberly wrote:
> Why *does* Hermione hate Fleur so much?  She generally gives people 
the benefit of the doubt.  Even Snape, before there was any
indication that he was anything but horrible.  But with Fleur she
just seems to detest her from the very beginning.  I don't think she's
ever done that with anyone else.  So is it only jealousy, or is there 
something else?

Two disclaimers, before I continue.  This post assumes an R/H 
relationship is developing in GoF and contains the word "feminism".  
If either of these factors make you break out in a rash, HIT DELETE!

Fleur's manner was haughty from the beginning, which ticked Hermione 
off.  The first mention of her follows:

"'... I hope and trust your stay [at Hogwarts] will be both 
comfortable and enjoyable.'

One of the Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her
head gave what was unmistakeably a derisive laugh.

'No one's making you stay!' Hermione whispered, bristling at her."
     GoF, Ch 16 The Goblet of Fire.

The next time Fleur is mentioned is later in the chaper, when she 
comes over for the bouillabaisse.  While she is perfectly polite, her 
very presence turns Ron into an idiot.  Whether or not there is 
something going on between Hermione and Ron at this point in time, 
Hermione finds Ron's drooling embarrassing.  She associates this with 
Fleur.

To be fair, she has a similar reaction when Ron goes all silly over 
Krum.  She prefers Ron to be his usual self, and behave in a manner 
she can respect.

This theory is a bit more involved.  This is where the feminism comes 
in.  There is a mode of thinking among feminist theorists known as
the "Blue-stocking discourse".  It suggests that, as girls reach 
adolescence, they begin to take on the feminine role.  They do this
by i) concentrating on their looks, ii) adopting 
submissive/flirtateous affectations and iii) repressing their 
intellectual capacity, amongst other things.  The idea is that
strong, 
smart females are less attractive to potential mates.

Whether or not this is true in the current context is a matter for 
more knowledgable people that myself.  However, Hermione is a young 
girl, just reaching adolescence.  She prizes her intelligence and 
values such masculine traits as courage and comradary.  Her attitude 
to her looks is functional and she considers preening to be fatuous.  
For someone to find her attractive, they're going to have to look 
beyond the exterior and she has no intention of altering that.

Now, in walks Fleur, the anti-Hermione.  This person looks good and 
knows it.  What's more, she maximises her looks; anyone who has ever 
had hair down to their waist will know that it hark work.  Her manner 
is feminine.  She attracts attention by walking across a room - she 
doesn't need to think, she just has to be.

I'm not suggesting Hermione was just jealous.  She might have been, 
but I also think her attitude could be attributed to a degree of 
contempt for the steroetype Fleur represented.  Fleur is an 
affirmation of what Hermione must have already started to notice.  
Smart, practical people can be daughters, students, peers and
friends, and can be appreciated accordingly.  It's not as easy to
find appreciation as a girl.  Your average teenager will look at the 
veela first.

Gwen.




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 28 16:12:09 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:12:09 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: not having read GoF
References: <99o6ud+sh9c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d501c0b7aa$caa35900$2a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15377

Catherine said:
I bought my GoF in the airport the day it came out (having called
them first to make sure that they would be open at 5.30am so I could
buy it).  I then drove my husband mad by spending half the weekend in
Paris glued to the book.  I just can't understand if someone loves
these books enough to join an HP group can bear to put off reading
the latest.  (But on the other hand, it means you don't have to wait
as long for the next one).
****************************
I bought 1 & 2 on a lark, because there they were and they were cheap, and
my friend, Nan, had been bugging me to read them. I read both that night. I
went back to the store to buy PoA in paperback. They didn't have it in
paperback and I didn't have enough money to buy it in hardcover. (3 days off
... tips spent) So, I zipped over to the public library... They didn't have
PoA... but they did have GoF... after a bit of hesitation, I decided it was
better than no HP book at all. I tried to check it out, only to discover I
had an old fine, which I also did not have the cash to pay. (it has since
been paid) I was desperate by now and it was time to go to work.

My thoughts were that I would make enough in tips to get the book... and get
off early enough to buy it yet. What force was against me that day? I ended
up having to borrow the rest of the money ... we had had an ice storm and an
unusually SLOW night. FINALLY ... I did get off early ... got my book ...
went home and started reading.

I also sent my son an email saying, "I have started book 3 of HP ... and by
the time I finish it, I would like to have the GoF, which my younger son
left at your house, sent to me. If you can not send it to me on time, I will
just buy another copy, and you can keep it." He said I was obsessed and to
chill. I said send me the book or $25 and you can keep the book. He did send
it. I did read it ... it came a day after I joined this list.

In the meantime, I had read a spoiler about the wand. So... to make a long
story even longer... I think it is literary suicide to read the postings on
this list before you read the book ... and I think it is incomprehensible to
read anything when you could be reading HP for the first time.

Do take 20 pts. off of your Obsession Rating.

Doreen CPW ... hmmm that looks way more official, but not nearly as much fun
as Corn Patch Witch






From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 28 16:20:28 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:20:28 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter 36 Summary
References: <99o9b9+9ahj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d701c0b7aa$cc91bb80$2a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15378


<snippety-snape>
> > 8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?
>
> I haven't ever been exactly clear on what he intends Snape to do.  I
> assume he wants Snape to return and infiltrate the Death Eaters,
but I'm
> not sure how he's supposed to manage that, since V. already knows
> (presumed from his listing of the DEs that aren't in attendance)
Snape
> is no longer faithful to him.

But for the great Potion Prof to whip up a little Polyjuice should be
the work of a moment......
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

But.... who is he going to turn into? Someone else who did not show up? How
does he know which other DE are missing? Neat idea... you have me curious.
CPW

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    - CMC






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From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Mar 28 17:16:13 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:16:13 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <3ABA0D38.1E07D241@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99t69h+o0j4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15379

Penny wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> muggle-reader at a... wrote:
> 
> > <long snip from CoS> Clearly Ginny is in a state of mental 
distress.
> > She is anxious, panicky, and hyperreflexic. Upon learning that 
Ginny
> > was about to divulge "important" news, Percy, with egocentric 
urgency,
> >
> > thinks "It's all about ME!", hence choking on his tea. He does not
> > even consider the important news is about the Chamber, much less 
that
> > his sister could possibly have any information about the Chamber.
> > Percy's only "concern" is to save himself. In one fell swoop, 
Percy
> > discredits Ginny's "important" news, questions her integrity and
> > discredits Ron's concern for Ginny.
> 
> I put a completely different spin on that scene.  I think Ginny
> hero-worships Percy a bit, thus explaining her need to scamper away.
=
656; Percy's motivations -- I hadn't thought of
self-centeredness.  

There is nothing in the books indicating that Ginny hero-worships 
Percy.  In PoA and GoF, Ginny seems to get along better with her 
other brothers than she does with Percy. (PS/SS Ch.6) Percy gets a 
kiss good-bye from Molly and joins the other prefects: no Percy 
interaction with Ginny and no Ginny reaction to Percy's departure. 
However, when Fred, George and Ron board the train, Ginny begins to 
cry. It is one of the three who says "Don't, Ginny, we'll send you 
loads of owls".  (CoS Ch. 9) Ron consoles an upset Ginny over the 
fate of Mrs. Norris. (CoS Ch. 8) "Ginny Weasley, who had been looking 
pale, was bullied into taking some [Pepperup potion] by Percy" 
Interesting choice of words "bullied". (CoS Ch. 12) Ginny and Percy 
don't find Fred and George's Heir of Slytherin comments amusing, but 
not for the same reason. By this time Ginny is doubting her own 
sanity and confides that and other such thoughts to Tom Riddle's 
Diary (CoS Ch. 17). Furthermore, Tom Riddle's Diary reveals in Ch. 
17, that Ginny was beginning to think Percy suspected she was 
involved with the Chamber ("Dear, Tom, Percy keeps telling me I'm 
pale and I'm not myself. I think he suspects me
"). That, in
itself, is a credible reason for Ginny's fear of Percy in Ch. 16. 
   
>That's
> admittedly plausible.  But, I think it's equally plausible that
> insecurity is at play.  She's apparently only recently discovered 
that
> Percy has a girlfriend, and it's something Percy doesn't want to 
share
> with his brothers.  He seems very shy about it, and he just leaps 
to the
> conclusion that she was about to "tell" on him.  I also don't think 
it's
> that unusual that he would think that her news involved something
> personal -- she's an 11-yr old girl, his little sister.  Why would 
he
> think that she had important revelations about the Chamber?  Ron & 
Harry
> don't necessarily think so either.  They know they were asking her 
about
> the Chamber, but her answer might have just as easily been to do 
with
> Percy as with the Chamber.  All she'd said was that she had 
something
> "important" to tell them.
> 

If the scene occurred earlier in the book , that might be reasonable. 
However, this passage occurs in Ch. 16 of CoS. By the time of this 
chapter, the Heir has attacked Mrs. Norris, Nick, Justin, Colin, 
Hermione, and Penelope; Hagrid has been sent away to Azkaban; 
Dumbledore has been removed as Head Master; students are no longer 
allowed out of their houses, with the exception of classes and meals. 
The school is in a state of emergency. No one knows the identity of 
the Heir, no one knows when or who the Heir will next attack. Under 
these circumstances for ANY student, especially a prefect, to 
completely dismiss the possibility that another student has some kind 
of information about the Chamber/Heir is not only dangerously 
foolish, but also grossly negligent. 
Harry noticed the similarity between Ginny's body language and 
Dobby's when he was about to reveal something earthshaking. Ron 
noticed something was amiss too and was prompting Ginny to reveal her 
information (I quoted this material in my prior response). However, 
Ron believed Percy when he said that Ginny's information had to do 
with him and not the Chamber. 
After Ginny's abduction later in the chapter, Ron realized that 
Ginny, in spite of Percy's assertions, did indeed know something 
about the Chamber (CoS Ch. 16: "She knew something, Harry", said Ron, 
speaking for the first time since they had entered the wardrobe in 
the staff room. "That's why she was taken. It wasn't about some 
stupid thing about Percy at all.") What does this say? It says that 
up to Ginny's abduction in Ch.16 CoS, Percy held some credibility 
with Ron, which is lost in the subsequent books. The Ron-Percy 
relationship in PoA is strained and after the Sirius Black attack 
incident, there is a seething hostility between the two (GoF almost 
every Ron-Percy interaction). 
   
> > Moreover it shows that Percy follows his preconceived notions when
> > assessing a situation rather than listening and sorting through 
the
> > facts. Ron's response, to Hermione's comment that Percy wouldn't 
give
> > any of his family to the Dementors, of "I don't know, " said Ron. 
"If
> > he thought we were standing in the way of his career
Percy's 
really
> > ambitious you know
"( GoF, Ch 27) doesn't seem completely off
the 
mark
> > in light of Percy's history.
> 
> I think it does.  I think the subtle ways that Rowling has 
illustrated
> him demonstrating family loyalty & caring concern for his siblings 
in
> times of trial indicates he would *not* let his ambitions get in 
the 
way
> of family ties.  He's obviously going to have a struggle, because 
JKR
> has also emphasized his ambition and his adherence to rules.  

 
Part of my response to this has been addressed above. So let's 
examine what the books contain about Percy and his attitudes toward 
his family.
(PS/SS Ch. 17) Upon Ron being awarded points for solving McGonagall's 
chess game, Percy remarks "My brother, you know! My youngest brother! 
Got past McGonagall's giant chess set!". Percy is very supportive in 
this instance, much more than the Sirius Black attack in PoA and 
probably the most supportive he's portrayed in the books. Again, his 
support and pride in his brother is during a time of triumph.
 (CoS Ch 8) The Pepperup potion was already mentioned.
(CoS Ch 9) Percy catches Ron and Harry exiting Myrtle's 
bathroom. "Get--away--from--there--" Percy said, striding toward them 
and starting to bustle them along, flapping his arms. "Don't you  
*care* what this looks like? Coming back here while everyone's at 
dinner--" Note: Percy concern is not for their safety, if it was, he 
would has said "Don't you know it's not safe here?" or something 
along those lines. Percy is concerned about appearances. The dialogue 
continues with Ron saying that he and Harry are investigating. Percy 
responding that the first years were anxious enough without Ron and 
Harry adding to that anxiety. "<snip> said Ron, whose ears were now 
reddening. "You're just worried I'm going to mess up your chances of 
being Head Boy--" To which Percy responds: "Five points from 
Gryffindor!" Percy said tersely, fingering his prefect badge. "And I 
hope it teaches you a lesson! No more detective work or I'll write to 
Mum!". Please note again: at this point in the book, the school was 
not in a similar state of emergency as it is in Ch. 16. Students were 
still allowed to walk the corridors without teacher escort. If Percy 
had subtracted points from Gryffindor upon immediately upon catching 
Ron and Harry it would appear the penalty was rules based. 
Subtracting the points after Ron's final comments makes it appear 
Percy was being vindictive. Also, his threat to "write to Mum!", 
takes him out of the realm of a concerned "prefect" and into the 
realm of a vindictive brother.
(CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his 
parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and Ron sit 
in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as a "time 
of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers. Throughout 
the books, Percy is portrayed as reliable and responsible and ready 
to show it. As the eldest Weasley at Hogwarts, Percy was the de facto 
head of the Weasley family. Yet, he is locked up in his dormitory 
while his younger brothers sit together in shock. That's not being 
terribly supportive or consoling at a time of trouble.
(PoA) I referred to this in my previous response. Percy ignores Ron's 
claims that Sirius Black was in his dormitory and tells McGonagall 
that Ron only had a nightmare (therefore, nothing to worry about). An 
attack by an escaped convict within the school is a time of crisis. 
(GoF Ch 10) This is Percy's reaction to Arthur's overtime at the 
Ministry following the Dark Mark incident. "Well, Father feels he's 
got to make up for his mistake at the match, doesn't he?" said 
Percy. "If truth be told, he was a tad unwise to make a public 
statement without clearing it with his Head of Department first--" 
Molly's response to this was "Don't you dare blame your father". 
Obviously, Molly felt that Percy's comments were accusatory and 
denigrating to Arthur. As readers, we know what "public statement" 
Arthur made at the campsite and we know the spin Rita Skeeter put on 
it. As Bill, points out to Percy, Skeeter would have written 
something negative even if Arthur had said nothing. Yet, Percy lays 
the blame completely on one person: his father.
(GoF Ch 23) Fred and George approach Bagman at the Yule Ball. Percy 
sees this and expects the worst--on the part of his brothers. "What 
do they think they're doing, annoying senior Ministry members?" Percy 
hissed, watching Fred and George suspiciously. "_No_ respect
"
Percy gives the benefit of the doubt to a senior Ministry official of 
whom he has a rather poor opinion (GoF Ch. 5).  Repeating the same 
mistake he made with Ginny in CoS, Percy doesn't bother to consider 
that the Twins might have a valid reason for approaching Bagman. He 
sums up their behavior as disrespectful and annoying. Percy does 
approach Bagman and inquires about the conversation and finds his 
excuse credible (though we, the readers, later find out that Bagman 
cheated the Twins out of their money).  
(GoF Ch. 26) During the Second Task, Ron and Harry are swimming with 
Gabrielle toward the bank. Percy runs to the bank and pulls Ron up. 
Percy is described as "pale".  A few paragraphs later, Madame 
Pomphrey frees Ron from "Percy's clutches" . The word choice is 
interesting. There is almost a negative connotation generally 
associated with 'clutches', ie, the clutches of a madman. Percy's 
actions in this case are not clear-cut. He could have been really be 
concerned for Ron: Ron is underwater for more than the one hour. On 
the other hand, Ron is in a positive spotlight. Fleur is beside 
herself with worry because she could not rescue her sister. Ron and 
Harry emerge from the surface with the little girl and swim with her 
to the bank. The boys look like heroes. Ron has not embarrassed 
anyone nor has misbehaved. Furthermore, Ron tells Harry that 
Dumbledore wouldn't let anyone drown. Surely, Percy, who's Ministry 
Department helped to organize the Tournament, would know this too. 
Again, taking all things into consideration, this Percy action is not 
objectively clear-cut.

>However,  my bet is with Hermione's judgment, not Ron's.
  
Let's look at Ron's judgement in comparision to Hermione's. 
Hermione considered Trelawney to be an "old fraud". However, 
Trelawney WAS correct about Lavander Brown's dreaded thing, about 
someone leaving the class forever before the year was over, about 
Lupin not staying. She was even correct about a servant of Voldemort 
escaping and making his way to help the Dark Lord . In spite of  
Trelawney's track record, Hermione still considered her a "fraud". 
(GoF Ch 5: "And remember what Trelawney said?" Harry went on ignoring 
Ron. "At the end of last year?" Professor Trelawney was their 
Divination teacher at Hogwarts. Hermione's terrified look vanished as 
she let out a derisive snort. "Oh Harry, you aren't going to pay 
attention to anything that old fraud says?")
Hermione's assessment of Crouch, Sr. was based on his harsh treatment 
of Winky. Even after visits to Winky, Hermione is still convinced 
that Crouch Sr. is a horrible man. She doesn't question why Winky 
would remain loyal to Crouch, though she was fired abruptly. She 
takes for granted that Winky isn't used to freedom (or does she think 
Winky's too stupid to realize Crouch was a horrible master). We learn 
from Crouch, Jr's admission that (GoF Ch 35) "He dismissed Winky. She 
had failed him. She let me acquire a wand. She had almost let me 
escape".  Earlier, in his admission, Crouch Jr says that his father 
used the Imperious Curse on him because he (Crouch Jr) would try to 
escape to rejoin Voldemort. In other words, Crouch Sr. was well aware 
of the danger his son posed. Winky was entrusted to watch over Crouch 
Jr. and she failed. She was fired because under her watch Crouch 
Jr. , a faithful servant of Voldemort, was able to get a wand and 
almost escape.  In the real world I've seen employees fired for far 
less. This also raises the question how "bad" was Crouch Sr. From 
Hermione's assessment, he is completely horrible. But would a 
completely horrible man allow his wife to exchange places with his 
son in Azkaban? Would a completely horrible man allow himself to be 
convinced by his house-elf to bring his deranged son to the World Cup 
or be rewarded with treats? Unlike, Lucius Malfoy, Crouch Sr. seems 
to have respected Winky enough to consider her opinions. Dobby was 
terrified of Malfoy. Winky retained a fondness for the Crouches: that 
should have raised a red flag.
Hermione's insistance that Crookshanks wasn't out to get Scabbers, as 
Ron believed, was wrong. Crookshanks conspired with Black to get 
Scabbers. Granted, Scabbers turned out to be a homicidal traitor, but 
it still does not negate the fact that Hermione was wrong about 
Crookshank. 
Hermione's assessment of the Ron-Harry feud (GoF Chs.17-20) has 
always puzzled me. Hermione assesses that Ron is jealous of Harry. 
Yet, as readers, we are privy to the break-up (GoF Ch. 20). Ron 
thinks Harry managed to get around the Goblet's age barrier, thinks 
Harry purposely didn't tell Ron and thinks Harry's denials are lies. 
Harry is upset because Ron doesn't believe him. Ron's admission in 
Gof Ch. 20 is not a revelation of jealousy but a revelation that 
Harry was indeed telling the truth ("Harry," [Ron] said, very 
seriously, "whoever put your name in the goblet--I--I reckon they're 
trying to do you in!"). The basis for the feud is more of trust.
I touched upon Ron's judgement with Crookshanks. Here's another: 
Dumbledore. (GoF Ch 27) Hermione, Ron and Harry are discussing Snape. 
Hermione states that Dumbledore trusts him with the implication that 
Dumbledore's judgement can't be flawed. Ron, however, thinks 
otherwise: "I know Dumbledore's brilliant and everything, but that 
doesn't mean a really clever Dark wizard couldn't fool him--". Ron is 
correct. Dumbledore IS fooled by a "really clever Dark wizard" from 
the first day of school to the finish of the Triwizard Tournament, 
nearly an entire school year.
The difference, IMO, between Ron's and Hermione's judgment is that 
Hermione has a pattern of thinking "black and white".  She judges a 
person's/thing's character as "good" and cannot entertain any "bad" 
actions from that person/thing (example; Crookshanks). Conversely she 
judges a person/thing as "bad" and cannot entertain any "good" from 
that person (example; that "old fraud" Trelawney). Ron sees the "gray 
areas". Yes Dumbledore is great, but he can still be wrong. IMO, this 
quality gives Ron more objectivity than Hermione in judging character.

> > I truly want Percy to side with Dumbledore and the rest of the
> > Weasley's in the upcoming books. J. K. Rowling could have Percy 
see
> > the light. But at this point, Percy's character can convincingly 
go
> > either way.
> 
> Yeah, it can.  You're definitely right about that.   I have more
> confidence in Percy though than in Ron to be honest.  I see Ron as a
> much more likely pawn of the dark side than Percy.
> 

Percy's already been a pawn of the Dark Side. A rather good one too 
because it took the disappearance of Crouch for the Ministry to 
suspect foul play. As for pawn desirability, Hermione is susceptible, 
IMO.  Her dislike of Trelawney intensified from the comment that 
Hermione didn't have the proper aura. Her boggart was McGonagall 
telling her she failed her courses. I can see Voldemort planting 
a "super-student" at Hogwarts to successfully compete against 
Hermione. Since she bases her self-worth upon her academic 
performance, she can potentially lured with the promise of restoring 
her academic standing.

>Zsenya writes: I don't see either one of them going to the "Dark" 
side. I see Percy as more likely to side with the Ministry in the 
>beginning, which is not exactly the same as the Dark side 
(Voldemort). I don't want to get into the whole Ron argument again, 
as >we differ on this subject. I CAN see Ron acting in a sort of spy 
capacity (pretending to go to Voldemort but really working for 
>Harry). Percy and Ron are actually alike in many ways, and I see the 
same forces that will persuade Percy to leave the Ministry in >play 
to keep Ron on the right team. 

I agree with you that Percy may not go to the Dark Side, but he is 
more likely to ally himself with Fudge. Face it, most politicians 
are "yes-men" and will tow the "party line" in order to advance their 
careers.  

I realize that my messages concerning Percy can be viewed as "anti-
Percy" and even anti-Hermione. On the contrary, I liked all the 
characters in the Potter series. I just believe that if the 
characters are examined within the context of the books the better 
the we can understand them, as opposed to examining them based on 
what WE want them to be rather what the evidence supports them to be. 

Demelza





From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Wed Mar 28 17:23:56 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:23:56 -0000
Subject: Mrs Figg the Squib? (was Mrs. Figg as babysitter)
In-Reply-To: <99sf4t+m9dn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99t6nc+83t7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15380

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
Thanks for all your thoughts on why Mrs Figg is a witch.  I think we 
just don't know enough yet to make a firmish judgement here.  

I guess I've always asumed she is a squib because I can't imagine 
Dumbledore asking a witch to 'live as a muggle' for so long, and if 
her job is just to feed the cats and send an occasional owl to 
Dumbledore then a squib could easily do it.

I agree she may or may not have actually broken her leg, but if she 
did and someone saw her, she could still get it fixed magically - 
explain that the hospital/x-rays had said it wasn't broken - feign a 
limp for a few days and most people would just assume she'd been lucky 
(muggles don't notice nuffink).

I don't think being part of the 'old gang' means she MUST be a witch. 
In the fight against V. a squib could easily have a useful role and 
perhaps draw less attention to themselves. As there's no useful 
defence against AK magical ability isn't all that important here.

> Two questions: 
> 1) What about Mrs. Figg teaching DADA? If Dumbledore trusted her 
> there she must be good. 

I like this idea - Now I agree that she would probably need to be a 
witch for this or it would be a really interesting and radical 
appointment (but then they are short of qualified candidates!!).  
Squib or witch I think she'd make an excellent DADA teacher, but I'd 
be sad to see the back of her after a year.

> 2) What about marrying a muggle even though you may double thier 
> lifespan? I don't know if I would like it.

I suspect Mrs Figgs maiden name was Perkins and that she's the sister 
of the old warlock (just retired) that Mr Weasley got the tent from.  
She strikes me as being even older than the senior Weasleys.  If Mrs 
Figg IS a squib, then I suspect she married a muggle and outlived him 
(Do squibs have the same lifespan as witches or muggles?).  Else Mr 
Figg could have died in the fight against Voldemort, but no evidence 
here.

Anyway you've all given me lots to think about - thanks,

Florence




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Mar 28 17:28:24 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:28:24 -0000
Subject: Clarification Re: Percy
In-Reply-To: <99t69h+o0j4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99t6vo+p74f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15381

That last message is from Demelza, and not from me. Demelza seems to 
have forgotten her password to her account and asked me to post it 
here. So yell at her for the content, not me, thank you 

:-)Milz (who's doing her mandatory good deed for the day)




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Mar 28 17:38:11 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:38:11 -0000
Subject: Summer School? QTA spoiler
Message-ID: <99t7i3+oelb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15382

QTA Spoiler

s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e

I noticed that the library is open during the summer months. The 
borrower page of QTA has Diggory, Johnson, MacMillian and Boot 
borrowing the book during July and August.

I wonder if the rest of the school is open too. It would make sense 
that those who failed a class or who missed too many classes, like 
Justin Fletchley-Finch, would be able to make up those courses during 
the summer months.

:-)Milz




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Wed Mar 28 17:45:56 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:45:56 -0000
Subject: Summer School? QTA spoiler
In-Reply-To: <99t7i3+oelb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99t80k+md5l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15383

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> QTA Spoiler
> 
> s
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
> s
> p
> a
> c
> e
> 
> I noticed that the library is open during the summer months. The 
> borrower page of QTA has Diggory, Johnson, MacMillian and Boot 
> borrowing the book during July and August.
> 
> I wonder if the rest of the school is open too. It would make sense 
> that those who failed a class or who missed too many classes, like 
> Justin Fletchley-Finch, would be able to make up those courses 
during 
> the summer months.
> 
> :-)Milz

It would support the idea of Harry being at Dursleys care for the 
reason that he needs to grow as a person, learning to deal with 
difficulties, in order to become as good a wizard (and fighter) as he 
can get. But is there any other explanation why he cannot spend his 
summers at Hogwarts, if its possible to do so?

/Jennifer




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Wed Mar 28 17:48:41 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:48:41 -0000
Subject: HP Essays...
Message-ID: <99t85p+43db@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15384

Hi everyone,

I just listned to the essay by Ashley, (many and much thanx to 
Angela for guiding me to it) and all I can say is WOW! I can relate to 
the story, and it just goes to show you how
magical fiction can be. You can learn from it, and take from it what 
you will. 

Before I read Harry Potter, fiction was an addiction for me, reading 
in general. I loved the written word and what it had to say.

But with Harry Potter I became what would be described as obsessed. I 
had always wanted to find a book that touched me emotionally, that 
made me feel and cry and realise things about myself. 

I never had a childhood, I had to raise my three brothers and my 
sister, so never got to find out what it was to have a childhood, 
carefree and fun.

Now I can live vicariously through Harry Potter...it's almost as if by 
reading those books now, I am again finding that child inside me.

Question for everyone...How has Harry Potter changed your life? 

Jamieson 

Angela Boyko wrote: 

  This link was actually posted to the main list in December. It says 
  something about my procrastination that I only followed it today. It 
  brought tears to my eyes, and I thought it worthwhile to share 
again. 

  > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rachelle Elliott" 
<relliott at j...> 
  > wrote: 
  > > HP Club: 
  > > 
  > > Scholastic Books released the winners of the "How Harry Potter 
  > Changed my Life"  Contest.  If you would like to read the winning 
  > essays go to 
  > http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/lifechange/index.htm 
  > > 
  > > I found all of the essays wonderful but, Ashley M. Age 14 
touched 
  > my heart.  After reading the essays, I really don't want to ever 
hear 
  > again that Harry Potter is bad for children. 
  > > 
  > > Rachelle 
    





From Allyse at my-deja.com  Wed Mar 28 17:56:52 2001
From: Allyse at my-deja.com (Allyse at my-deja.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:56:52 -0000
Subject: Priori Incantatum and Snape vs Lupin as students
Message-ID: <99t8l4+6ac6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15385

Coming in a bit late to the discussion re Priori Incantatum; I'm 
still three digests behind! Superb summation of chap 36, Penny.

Someone (sorry, I forget who) wondered if PI might not be so 
uncommon - after all, unicorns might supply dozens or even hundreds 
of tail hairs. But I would like to suggest that the PI effect might 
be very diffused under such circumstances, and it there was a double 
rarity at work with Harry's and V's wands: first, that they shared 
cores, and second, that they were the *only* wands that shared 
Fawkes' feathers. Since there were only two wands in existence with 
that specific core, the effect might have proven to be much more 
powerful.

Just a theory... :)

As for the question of why Snape didn't "accidently" slip up with 
Lupin's status when they were still students at Hogwarts, I would 
suggest that once Dumbledore discovered that Snape knew, he might 
very well have threatened *him* with expulsion if he revealed Lupin's 
lycanthropy to others.

Allyse






From rina at love-productions.com  Wed Mar 28 17:57:13 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:57:13 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy
Message-ID: <00b801c0b7b0$868d2ce0$215182ac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15386

Demelza wrote:

<<(CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his 
parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and Ron sit 
in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as a "time 
of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers. Throughout 
the books, Percy is portrayed as reliable and responsible and ready 
to show it. As the eldest Weasley at Hogwarts, Percy was the de facto 
head of the Weasley family. Yet, he is locked up in his dormitory 
while his younger brothers sit together in shock. That's not being 
terribly supportive or consoling at a time of trouble.>>

I found most of your post really interesting, although I didn't completely agree with all of it. I think the above part is what I most had trouble with, as I saw it in a different light from you. What follows is my theory. : ) No, his actions weren't terribly supportive or consoling. But you said yourself - he knew something was wrong with her, and he knew that she was going to tell Ron and Harry something when he scared her off. While at first it didn't add up to anything but a nervous little sister who knew one of his secrets, now it all makes sense. All of this time, he could have done something to help her and the school, and he didn't. He's probably furius at himself, and knows that Ron, the twins and Harry probably are too. He blames himself for her abduction and probably for all the Petrified students, so he hides. Not the best thing to do, not a very courageous thing to do, but he is still a kid who is scared that his sister will die and it's all his fault. That's not an easy thing to deal with.

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From LavenderChic at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 18:03:00 2001
From: LavenderChic at hotmail.com (Rachel Taylor)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 13:03:00 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Young Snape - H/N - Mrs Figg
Message-ID: <F2689fIdwA7Ix8qZnlh0000e1d7@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15387



>
>No, I'm not ignoring the fact that Dumbledore can expel him but he
>has to have a very, very good reason such as the death or serious
>injury to a fellow student.
>May be it's because I am younger and still remember how school and
>punishment works. There's a due process involving expulsion because
>as you mentioned, there are grave consequences and they have to make
>sure everyone is being treated fairly.

I'm sorry, but i have to disagree there.  In American Schools at least, they 
expel kids all the time without sufficent evidence that the child is 
dangerous. example-zero tolerance....   At least recently the schools here 
in america have been expelling children left and right for stupid reasons 
such as bringing a butter knife to school to use at lunch time...

As for Lupin being expelled, there really is no reason for dumbledore to do 
it, he can't help his condition....

Which brings up another point, the teachers don't seem to have many forms of 
punishment, just detention and taking house points....doesn't seem to 
effective, everyone seems to live in mortal fear of being expelled.  If 
students were expelled, is there alternitive education available?  or would 
they just be expected to go work somewhere?  If they came from a wizarding 
family, would they still be expected to go to muggle scchool?  Would they be 
elgibal for re-admission within two years or such?

just something to think about.

-Rachel
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 18:02:52 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:02:52 -0000
Subject: Summer School? QTA spoiler
In-Reply-To: <99t80k+md5l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99t90c+v85h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15388

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> > QTA Spoiler
> > 
> > s
> > p
> > o
> > i
> > l
> > e
> > r
> > s
> > p
> > a
> > c
> > e
> > 
> > I noticed that the library is open during the summer months. The 
> > borrower page of QTA has Diggory, Johnson, MacMillian and Boot 
> > borrowing the book during July and August.
> > 
> > I wonder if the rest of the school is open too. It would make 
sense 
> > that those who failed a class or who missed too many classes, 
like 
> > Justin Fletchley-Finch, would be able to make up those courses 
> during 
> > the summer months.
> > 
> > :-)Milz
> 
> It would support the idea of Harry being at Dursleys care for the 
> reason that he needs to grow as a person, learning to deal with 
> difficulties, in order to become as good a wizard (and fighter) as 
he 
> can get. But is there any other explanation why he cannot spend his 
> summers at Hogwarts, if its possible to do so?
> 
> /Jennifer

I don't know, but we know that there is the possibility of students 
staying on.  In CoS, Tom Riddle (the dreaded V) wants to stay there 
over the summer, and the only reason he is told he can't is because 
of the Chamber of Secrets crisis.  Therefore there's a precedent.
Catherine




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Mar 28 18:06:06 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:06:06 -0000
Subject: Does anyone else have a problem with the amazon.com HP store tagline?
Message-ID: <99t96e+k4sj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15389

"Author J.K. Rowling brought to life a world of magic, mystery, and 
mayhem when she introduced Harry Potter to millions of readers. Now 
kids can have more adventures with Harry and his friends. Muggles, 
mudbloods, and wizards alike are bound to be entertained by these 
games and puzzles."

Look at the last sentence. Do you get the feeling that whoever wrote 
that may've read GoF, but never read CoS? In GoF, the 
whole "horribleness" of that word is alluded to but if you hadn't 
read CoS, you might not realize just HOW horrible it is. 

But I don't want to sound silly in emailing amazon.com about it - I'm 
hoping that by opening the subject up for discussion here, maybe 
someone on this list from Scholastic or Warner Bros/AOL will read it 
and let amazon know that the tagline is, well, like using words like 
(just for illustration purposes!) Jap, Wop or Kike...i.e. not a good 
idea.




From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 18:18:38 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:18:38 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <99t08k+2scv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99t9tu+mga2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15390

I'm afraid the captain of  our little (tiny, teensy, puny) ship is 
rather the quiet type.  Either that, or he's disappeared completely.  
::climbing up on the rigging and scanning the sadly sparse deck for 
signs of Cap'n Jim, then raising my eyes to the horizon in case he's 
fallen overboard somewhere along the way::  I haven't seen him around 
in awhile.   Anyway, welcome aboard, and don't worry about the 
complete lack of evidence for our ship.  We live on hope here!
 
kimberly, quite possibly the lone crewmember of the H/G

Jim is on deck of the good ship H/G. A crowd of D/G'ers had imprisoned 
him in the hold, but he has escaped.

Why would anyone like the idea of Harry and Ginny? Well, there's the 
One Big Happy Weasley Family idea, which a lot of our brothers and 
sisters here find too saccharine for words (Walton Mountain with 
spells). I don't agree with them. A family like the Weasleys would be 
a blessing to a Harry beaten up emotionally and likely physically by 
his experiences fighting the Death Eaters and Voldemort. 

I'm not so anti-H/H as I am pro H/G. I know there's very little 
support in canon for H/G. OTOH, there isn't much support for H/H 
either, aside from their closeness and proximity.

It all depends on what kind of woman you think is right for Harry. 
Hermione wants an intellectually and emotionally strong partner, 
somebody who will both stimulate and challenge her. She's maturing 
beautifully, and she'll improve, but she's been insensitive before 
with people's emotions (Parvati's rabbit, for instance). She'll work 
hard to keep Harry's head straight and in the world; she's not going 
to let him mope with his memories of death and terror. You could argue 
that's what Harry needs. I like Hermione a lot.

Ginny is Molly Weasley's daughter, and she comes from a close-knit 
loving family. She's not going to be a wimp -- Molly sure isn't -- and 
nobody's doormat, but she will love Harry with the kind of devotion 
and passion that the quiet girls develop. (Note to younger male 
members of this group: remember that.) She will always be there for 
him, a healing balm, a safe harbor; and Harry will be good for her 
because he won't take her for granted.

I come down on the side of Ginny, and, I admit it. OBHWF. So, all of 
us downtrodden H/G'ers will repeat our daily affirmation:

"Say it loud, we're corny and we're proud. We like Her-my-oh-ninny, 
but we're going to root for Ginny!"Always good to hear someone else 
likes H/G!  




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 18:21:25 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:21:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy
In-Reply-To: <00b801c0b7b0$868d2ce0$215182ac@shelley>
Message-ID: <20010328182125.12094.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15391

> <<(CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his 
> parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and Ron
> sit in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as 
> a "time of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers. 
> Throughout the books, Percy is portrayed as reliable and 
> responsible and ready to show it. As the eldest Weasley at 
> Hogwarts, Percy was the de facto 
> head of the Weasley family. Yet, he is locked up in his dormitory 
> while his younger brothers sit together in shock. That's not being 
> terribly supportive or consoling at a time of trouble.>>

Yes, but....

Let's turn that example around.  Before Ginny was abducted Percy was
acting in a strange manner because (as we find out later) his
girlfriend was one of the petrified victims.  Yet none of his three
brothers asked him why he was particularly down and one of them
suggested it was because Percy never thought the monster would attack
a fellow prefect.  Where was the brotherly consolation or concern
from the younger three then?

As for locking himself away after Ginny was abducted, I think we can
safely add a huge load of guilt to Percy's shoulders.  Not only is
his girlfriend still petrified but his kid sister is another victim
and he should have done more to find out why she was so stressed or
if she might have known something rather than assuming she wanted to
fink on his love-life.

Poor Percy.  First of all shackled with an uncool name in a family of
normal ones and then suspected of being hard of heart (and at worst a
perfect recruit for the Dark Side).  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 18:27:26 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:27:26 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <005001c0b7a3$cc6817a0$988f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <99taee+i23f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15392

Rebecca:"Presently, it's quite clear that Harry has no interest in 
Ginny:  but I see  a great deal of potential and some very good 
reasons for that to change.  Harry is so close to the Weasley family 
as a whole, and relates so well to  them on the whole, that there's 
already a bond there.  Ginny being a Weasley  certainly gives her an 
"in" as far as spending time with Harry and getting  to know him that 
other girls (with the exception of Hermione) don't have."

And don't forget that Mrs. Weasley wanted Harry to spend the whole 
summer at the Burrow, and although he's not going to do that, he'll 
probably spend a lot of time there; and he and Ginny are a year older. 
"Nothing propinks like propinquity."

Rebecca:"It seems to me that Harry and Ginny actually have a very 
promising foundation for a lifelong relationship, if Ginny can only 
get over her infatuation and learn to see Harry as he really is..."

She does have to get over that, but with age and getting to know him 
over time I'm hopeful. A shared experience, like some danger, might 
help.

"...and of course if Harry can get beyond outward appearance (not to 
say that I think Ginny is necessarily  unattractive, but that she 
isn't Harry's "type") and start looking at personality."

Harry just hasn't noticed her yet. That happens.

All we H/G'ers have is hope, so keep hoping!!




From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 06:46:24 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 06:46:24 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & Ginny, Hermione & the Boys
In-Reply-To: <200103280536.f2S5aY629167@ccpl.carr.org>
Message-ID: <99s1c0+ab3p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15393


 *faint gurgling noises* A shipper debate? *Another* one? Sheesh. And 
I was just trying to remember why I have this list on web view. Now I 
remember.... ^_~ Oookay, the liberal Marketing Director of the Good 
Ship R/H will jump in with her views.


  > Cassie wrote:
> >Really? I've never gotten any sense that Hermione and Ginny were in
> >any way close, and have always felt a little bad for Hermione that
> >she doesn't have female friends. I don't get the slightest sense > 
> >that she confides in Ginny -- there's never been a single scene in 
> >which we see her hanging out with Ginny casually and for fun; she 
> >never sits with her at meals or in the common room or the library.
> 

 Heh, well, this is a monumental moment. I have to agree. I don't 
think they are good friends. Girls at that age tend to be like 
Lavender and Parvati - almost always together, talking about boys, 
just enjoying each other's companionship. I don't think that we have 
any evidence at all that Hermione and Ginny have this kind of 
relationship - Harry *never* notices them talking or anything. They 
do have breakfast once, but I hardly think you can claim that *that* 
is indicating they have a strong friendship. 

> 
> Penny wrote:
> >There's plenty of H/H evidence
> >in GoF too, you know. Her answer was quite ambiguous in my mind.
> >Hermione's feelings are quite open to more than one 
>interpretation.<g>
> 

 You know, I want to know why it all boils down to Hermione's 
feelings. What about Harry? Doesn't he matter in this relationship at 
all? Hel-*lo* Farmer In The Dell. He might not care for Hermione at 
all, and be nursing a crush on Millicent Bulstrode.


> Penny again:
> >She couldn't be bothered to talk to Viktor Krum, who had
> >just saved her from the lake & declared his feelings for her, 
because
> >she was too busy cheering for & talking to *Harry*.
>
Kathy:
> OK, if I were 14 and had some guy just declare his feelings to me 
>after a VERY public display of his affection, and I was unsure how I 
>felt about him and was feeling really uncomfortable, I would find 
>someone else to talk to quickly too.  And I might busy myself 
>cheering for my best friend as an excuse to avoid talking to lover-
>boy too.  But maybe that's just me.

 Ah. Took the words right out of my mouth. I think that Hermione 
probably feels a little awkward around Viktor - he's eighteen, he's 
smitten with her, she doesn't really know him... That could be pretty 
weird, considering her social life seems almost exclusively limited 
to Harry, Ron, and a few other Gryffindors (heh, it's arguable 
there's also Draco and some assorted Ravenclaws, but let's not go 
there). I think that Hermione was feeling trapped - and let's not 
forget that no matter how hot to trot she is with anyone, Harry is 
one of her best friends, and she probably wants him to win more than 
her random Bulgarian Lover... Not to offend the V/H fans. ^_^

> 
> Catherine wrote:
> >(But please don't beat me up over this, I'm not objecting to H/H,
> >just think the other is more likely).
> 
> Oooo, I'm objecting!  Go ahead, beat me up!  (Kidding!  I'm 
kidding!  Don't 
> ram the ship, please!)
> 

 Tsk, tsk, tsk. Really, Captain. Trying to get us all killed? 
(Whisper: But I must agree...)

> Penny wrote:
> >Well, she eats all her meals with Harry; they walk to class 
together;
> >they sit in class together; they leave class together -- there is 
no
> >mention of her spending much time with Ron.
> 

 Kathy Quoted:
> "Hermione was furious with the pair of them; she went from one to 
the other, 
> trying to force them to talk to each other..." (GoF, UK ed, p. 277)

....and this is just pointing out, once again, that the books are 
from Harry's point of view and so therefore we don't know what 
exactly Ron and Hermione are doing when he isn't around. *snerk* I 
like what that implies. <g>

> 
> Amy Z:
> >But it has enough freight that if H/H becomes real, we'll all look 
back and
> >say "Yeah! Viktor said she talked about him a lot!" (All of us
> >except Kathy aka Elanor, of course, who will have hanged herself 
from
> >the yardarm or whatever it is they hanged Billy Budd from.)
> 
> LOL!  Oh, dear, am I *that* vehement?  :)  I suppose I am.  Oh 
well.  Maybe  Hermione will run off to Bulgaria with Viktor Krum 
after all, and Penny and I can have a suicide pact. <g>

 ROFL! Yes, Kathy, you *are* that vehement. But don't worry, I'll be 
hanging from the nearest tree, too. I've just invested too much 
energy into insisting that it *will* be R/H. Frankly, I don't know 
what I'm going to do when Draco and Harry don't get together. *weeps 
because she likes odd pairings*


Emily [MC, Ginny Love]
Marketing Director of the Good Ship R/H
Random Ranking Officer on SS Slash D/H




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Mar 28 18:36:01 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:36:01 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <20010328182125.12094.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <99tauh+pttf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15394

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > <<(CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his 
> > parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and Ron
> > sit in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as 
> > a "time of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers. 
> > Throughout the books, Percy is portrayed as reliable and 
> > responsible and ready to show it. As the eldest Weasley at 
> > Hogwarts, Percy was the de facto 
> > head of the Weasley family. Yet, he is locked up in his dormitory 
> > while his younger brothers sit together in shock. That's not being 
> > terribly supportive or consoling at a time of trouble.>>
> 
> Yes, but....
> 
> Let's turn that example around.  Before Ginny was abducted Percy was
> acting in a strange manner because (as we find out later) his
> girlfriend was one of the petrified victims.  Yet none of his three
> brothers asked him why he was particularly down and one of them
> suggested it was because Percy never thought the monster would 
attack
> a fellow prefect.  Where was the brotherly consolation or concern
> from the younger three then?
> 
> As for locking himself away after Ginny was abducted, I think we can
> safely add a huge load of guilt to Percy's shoulders.  Not only is
> his girlfriend still petrified but his kid sister is another victim
> and he should have done more to find out why she was so stressed or
> if she might have known something rather than assuming she wanted to
> fink on his love-life.
> 
> Poor Percy.  First of all shackled with an uncool name in a family 
of
> normal ones and then suspected of being hard of heart (and at worst 
a
> perfect recruit for the Dark Side).  

I agree with you about Percy feeling guilty. I think he came to the 
same conclusion as Ron that Ginny knew something about the Chamber. 
But guilt or not, Ginny disappears and her brothers are in shock. As 
the oldest, Percy should have tried to comfort his brothers instead of 
locking himself in his room. I know it's unfair but the older kids in 
a family are usually given the job of being mentors to the younger 
kids, you know, the "big brother or big sister". Percy kind of shunned 
his duty, so to speak.

:-)Milz (who's getting worried about all the responses Demelza's 
getting and is hoping she'll get her password so I won't have to copy 
all these responses and e-mail them to her....)




From meckelburg at foni.net  Wed Mar 28 11:42:20 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:42:20 -0000
Subject: Mrs.Figg DADA- teacher? (Mrs. Figg as babysitter)
In-Reply-To: <99sf4t+m9dn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99sims+os03@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15395

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
> Witches and Wizards live considerably longer than muggles. Hagrid is 
> in his 60's and Dumbledore is over 100. 11 years isn't as long a 
time 
> as it is to muggles. Rowling only sneaks in what she wants so we may 
> find out she prepared Harry a little. We also do not know if she 
> stayed in the house that often. She could apparate to Hogsmeade 
> occationally. I agree that we don't really know if she broke her 
leg. 
> She may have stopped an attack or just wanted Harry to go to the 
zoo. 
> 
> Two questions: 
> 1) What about Mrs. Figg teaching DADA? If Dumbledore trusted her 
> there she must be good. 
> 2) What about marrying a muggle even though you may double thier 
> lifespan? I don't know if I would like it.

to 1) Ithink I read in a Rowling- interview that there will be a 
female DADA -Teacher in a later book, so why not. IMO all these 
discussions of Mrs.Figg being a Sqib lead into the wrong direction. 
Mrs. Figg would not ge of any use to Dumbledore's DADA-gang if she 
could not do any magic. And she was in the "old"gang, which means she 
has faught V long before Harry met V. On the contrary, I think she 
must have quite extraordinary magical powers we don't know of yet.

to 2) I wouldn't like that sort of relationship either, but Muggles 
don't stick to their age when they fall in love, and at least a 
muggle/wizard- relationship can be "normal" for a very long time. I 
don't think many witches/wizards talk about this sort of think until a 
relationship is well on the way, so many couples try to push that 
problem away to much later. Wizards/witches have magical 
possbibilities which can help even a muggle get much older than normal 
( no typical old-people diseases for instance), so that they could lat 
110 - 115 years, which slows the problem down a little.

forgive my spelling,
Mecki  




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 28 18:39:31 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:39:31 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy
References: <20010328182125.12094.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011901c0b7b6$6e3d0ec0$2a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15396



> <<(CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to his
> parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George and Ron
> sit in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's abduction as
> a "time of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from his brothers.
> Throughout the books, Percy is portrayed as reliable and
> responsible and ready to show it. As the eldest Weasley at
> Hogwarts, Percy was the de facto
> head of the Weasley family. Yet, he is locked up in his dormitory
> while his younger brothers sit together in shock. That's not being
> terribly supportive or consoling at a time of trouble.>>

Yes, but....

Let's turn that example around.  Before Ginny was abducted Percy was
acting in a strange manner because (as we find out later) his
girlfriend was one of the petrified victims.  Yet none of his three
brothers asked him why he was particularly down and one of them
suggested it was because Percy never thought the monster would attack
a fellow prefect.  Where was the brotherly consolation or concern
from the younger three then?

As for locking himself away after Ginny was abducted, I think we can
safely add a huge load of guilt to Percy's shoulders.  Not only is
his girlfriend still petrified but his kid sister is another victim
and he should have done more to find out why she was so stressed or
if she might have known something rather than assuming she wanted to
fink on his love-life.

Poor Percy.  First of all shackled with an uncool name in a family of
normal ones and then suspected of being hard of heart (and at worst a
perfect recruit for the Dark Side).
*****************************************
Also, he could be one of those people, like myself, who has to get away to
be able to handle grief. If I can not get away physically, I will withdraw
mentally and emotionally.

I think he only appeared to be cool, calm, and collected. I think he was
suffering more than any of the rest will ever know. Being the perfectionist
that he is, he took responsibility for all the blame in both cases and being
still a young man, is overwhelmed by what to do. Going to Dumbledore or
another adult is just not an option, because he is supposed to be able to
deal with situations, because he is a prefect .. and he is Percy .. and he
is perfect... To be any less is to have failed, in his mind ... and as he
sees them, in his family's minds, as well.

Doreen
*************





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 05:07:42 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 05:07:42 -0000
Subject: New elements
Message-ID: <99rriu+a8v2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15397

Every once in awhile someone raises the question of why we don't hear 
about this or that thing until a later book.  E.g. why do we never 
hear the term "Death Eaters" until GoF?  Is this a Flint on JKR's 
part? etc.

I have been thinking about the fact that for me, this is one of the 
many charms of the books.  What I love best about PS/SS (which is 
otherwise my 4th favorite, if I'm really forced to choose) is all the 
new things you encounter--one terrific Rowling idea after another, 
like portraits that move around and House ghosts.  If she'd 
introduced them all in the first book, the subsequent ones would 
really be missing something.

Every book has lots of things like this that we've never encountered 
before--

CoS:  Azkaban, the Weasleys' car, self-shuffling playing cards, Ron's 
Chudley Cannons fanship, Polyjuice Potion, Fawkes, Dumbledore's 
office, Floo Powder, Knockturn Alley, the Whomping Willow, house-
elves.

PoA: Dementors, Boggarts, and various other Dark creatures; Professor 
Kettleburn; the Marauder's Map; Hogsmeade (we hear of it but don't 
get the tour before this); the Knight Bus; the fact that Harry has a 
godfather. 

GoF: lots more Dark and otherwise interesting creatures we've never 
heard of before, veela, other wizarding schools, giants being hated 
and Hagrid being half-giant, Apparition (I believe it is in CoS in 
some versions but not in others?), Penseives, the term "Death 
Eaters," Snape having been one, the Dark Mark, the prefects' having 
their own bathroom, magical eyes.

We could ask about almost any of them, "how come this didn't get a 
mention earlier?"  Why didn't we hear about Dementors when we first 
learned about Azkaban?  Can we really believe F&G never talked about 
the Map before now?  Mightn't Hagrid have mentioned that the person 
he ran into at the wreckage of the Potters' was Harry's godfather? 
Why didn't we hear the term "Death Eaters" the first time we heard 
about Voldemort's circle of supporters?  etc.  The reason isn't, IMO, 
usually that JKR hadn't thought of these items yet, though I'm sure 
she invents plenty of them as she goes along.  One other reason is 
that PS/SS would have been 900 pages long if she'd made it a 
comprehensive tour of the wizarding world; another is that JKR is 
spacing them out to give us new delights in each book.  I like the 
latter because I'm hoping 5, 6 and 7 will be filled with new 
inventions like these.

Amy Z
wondering what wonders are in store in OoP . . . and whether 2002 
will ever come




From litalex at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 19:00:41 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:00:41 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
References: <99t08k+2scv@eGroups.com> <005001c0b7a3$cc6817a0$988f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <007001c0b7b9$63b7da40$8211eda9@kwan>

No: HPFGUIDX 15398

Hello,

> > Always good to hear someone else likes H/G!

Oh, the problems with being a slasher...  The first time I've read this, I
thought it was Hermione/Ginny!

But, back to the unfortunate reality, I don't want to see Harry/Ginny until
Ginny is a) more grown-up, and b) more developed as a character.  And both
together, too.  I want to see how she'd act as a teenager before supporting
any ships.  Also, anyone know if there are *any* magical colleges?

little Alex




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Wed Mar 28 18:37:41 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:37:41 -0000
Subject: SHIP OBHWF (aka One Big Happy Weasley Family)
In-Reply-To: <99t9tu+mga2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tb1l+6fck@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15399

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> Why would anyone like the idea of Harry and Ginny? Well, there's 
the 
> One Big Happy Weasley Family idea, which a lot of our brothers and 
> sisters here find too saccharine for words (Walton Mountain with 
> spells). I don't agree with them. A family like the Weasleys would 
be 
> a blessing to a Harry beaten up emotionally and likely physically 
by 
> his experiences fighting the Death Eaters and Voldemort. 

Oh, I agree, it will be WONDERFUL for Harry to find family feelings 
amid the Weasleys (assuming that ron and/or percy don't become pawns 
of the dark side, that is). I just don't think that marriage is the 
way for him to be it, and I have 2 reasons why - one personal and one 
a little more objective (although all of this is clearly IMHO!)

Personal first. Ebony & I were talking about this just last night. 
The Weasley Family seems to be the type of fmaily where, probably 
under Molly's guide, the "family" expands to include people who need 
to be included. My home, growing up, was much the same. I've posted 
before about the friends of mine & my sister's who moved into our 
house for weeks, months, every weekend for 2 years, or in the case 
the guy I call my brother, 14 years. Some were girls, some were guys -
 some were cousins of mine, others were our best friends from school. 
Some families are just like that, and I like to think that the 
Weasleys are. Would anyone deny that Harry is as close to ROn as any 
of ROn's brothers are? And it must be abundantly clear to Molly that 
after the 3rd task, Harry needs a mothering figure in his life, and 
she is ready and willing to be that for him, for the entire summer. 
It is not her wish that he go to Privet Drive - she wants him at the 
Burrow for the summer. And she's doing this even though it must be 
abundantly clear to her that there is no romantic relationship 
between harry & ginny *at that moment*.
And if there was, that would cause a problem or 2, which leads into 
my "objective" comment. If Harry was dating Ginny, would Molly be as 
willing to allow him to spend the summer at the Burrow, relatively 
unsupervised, or would she be concerned about those teen hormones? 
And if nothing happened until they were 17 (we don't know exacly how 
much younger than Harry Ginny is - I'm guessing she's a spring baby, 
like Ron, but then they began dating, it could *so* change his 
relationship with the Weasleys - he'd move out of the category 
of "foster son" into the category of "son in law to be", which means 
that in any dispute between Ginny & Harry (what, you don't think 
they'd have any? Hey, Ebony - a new science project!) her *parents* 
would naturally take her side, leaving Harry with nobody inhouse to 
back him up. He couldn't very well go to them with complaints or 
concerns about Ginny, because they could be taken as an attack on 
their daughter - and no parent wants to hear that, not even the 
Weasleys. 
I think it would *ruin* Harry's relationship with Molly, and to a 
lesser level, Arthur (although this relationship isn't as vital to 
harry as long as sirius is alive) if he started dating Ginny, and it 
would be worse if they were to marry. 
I want OBHWF - but I want it to come from the love and affection all 
the people involved feel for each other, not from contracts and 
handfasting, or however witches & wizards get wed.





From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 19:07:54 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:07:54 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny: I would like to come aboard!
In-Reply-To: <99t9tu+mga2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tcqa+t9os@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15400

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:

> Why would anyone like the idea of Harry and Ginny? Well, there's 
the 
> One Big Happy Weasley Family idea, which a lot of our brothers and 
> sisters here find too saccharine for words (Walton Mountain with 
> spells). I don't agree with them. A family like the Weasleys would 
be 
> a blessing to a Harry beaten up emotionally and likely physically 
by 
> his experiences fighting the Death Eaters and Voldemort. 
> 
> I'm not so anti-H/H as I am pro H/G. I know there's very little 
> support in canon for H/G. OTOH, there isn't much support for H/H 
> either, aside from their closeness and proximity.
> 
> Ginny is Molly Weasley's daughter, and she comes from a close-knit 
> loving family. She's not going to be a wimp -- Molly sure isn't -- 
and 
> nobody's doormat, but she will love Harry with the kind of devotion 
> and passion that the quiet girls develop. (Note to younger male 
> members of this group: remember that.) She will always be there for 
> him, a healing balm, a safe harbor; and Harry will be good for her 
> because he won't take her for granted.
> 
> I come down on the side of Ginny, and, I admit it. OBHWF. So, all 
of 
> us downtrodden H/G'ers will repeat our daily affirmation:
> 
> "Say it loud, we're corny and we're proud. We like Her-my-oh-ninny, 
> but we're going to root for Ginny!"Always good to hear someone else 
> likes H/G!

I just think it feels right to me! One big happy or not. I like 
Ginny. I want Harry to like her! can I come aboard ship, Captain?

Heather M.




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Mar 28 19:07:31 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:07:31 -0000
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semikolon debate
In-Reply-To: <99smgp+f97o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tcpj+ek3l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15401

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> In your discussion about "The great semikolon debate" Cassie 
> mentionend fleur kissing Ron. Correct me if I'm wrong but in my 
book 
> (German vers. Pg.528) Fleur rushes to Harry and gives him a kiss, 
then 
> Hermione frowns. This would mean Hermione wants to draw attention 
to 
> Harry, not to Ron
> 
> Mecki

----------------------------------------------
Just for the record, I haven't involved myself in the semicolon 
debate and didn't mention Fleur kissing Ron. Must have been someone 
else.

Cassie




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Mar 28 18:53:36 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (absinthe at mad.scientist.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:53:36 -0000
Subject: Bloody Baron ID (was Ivanhoe the True Story)
In-Reply-To: <99r1o7+6fd2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tbvg+8v0v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15402

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., foxmoth at q... wrote:
> Rita the Catlady and I were speculating as to the identity of the 
> Bloody Baron, and I came up with the idea that he might be Bois-
> Guilbert from Ivanhoe...not a Baron, but maybe it's just a nickname. 
> Then of course Rebecca really was a witch after all.
> 
> Sample Bois-Guilbert line, having been asked what could be worth the 
> sacrifices he has made.
> 	"The power of vengeance, Rebecca...and the prospects of 
ambition."
> Is that Slytherin thinking or what?!
> 
> Pippin

Hi, I saw this posted on a paranormal messageboard

http://www.fife.50megs.com/haunted_buckholm_tower.html

Scroll down a bit to Hermitage Castle. It tells of William de Soulis, 
a Scottish baron. He was killed in a a big pot of molten lead. I 
remember the Bloody Baron's description that he had splotches of 
silvery blood stains. What if the stains aren't blood and really 
molten lead? I think in SS/PS, Nick tells Harry he never asked the 
Baron exactly how he died. Maybe being "The Bloody Baron" is cooler 
than being "The Molten Lead Splattered Baron"? lol

:-)Milz 




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Wed Mar 28 19:14:29 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:14:29 -0000
Subject: Percy or Ron: Pawns of the Dark Side?
In-Reply-To: <3AC0BF88.E97918BD@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99td6l+qct0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15403


>  Penny wrote:
> Ron, OTOH, still strikes me as someone who could be an unwitting pawn of the Dark side.  He has his own very strong ambitions that were emphasized quite alot in GoF.  I am not arguing that he would ever ever knowingly betray Harry.  But, he does have problems resisting the Imperius curse for example.  Might this not be an indication that he would be a more likely target for Voldy's forces than Hermione?  If you were going to target someone close to Harry -- Ron makes the most sense
to me.

I agree.  Ron is not only ambitious, but he's tired of being Harry's 
shadow and he's tired of being poor (both emphasized in GoF).  Gred & 
Forge at least see a possibility for making their own money (the joke 
shop & props).  Ron sees that "everything he owns is rubbish" (not sure 
of the exact quote, but says something along similar lines several 
times during GoF.  I'm not saying that he would go evil for money. I do 
believe, though, that if an opportunity to get money came along that 
didn't "seem" like it would hurt anybody -- Ron could be used.  Add 
that to the Imperius curse, and he's really vulnerable.
a.





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 19:24:55 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:24:55 -0000
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semicolon debate
In-Reply-To: <005101c0b7a3$cdbf6a40$988f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <99tdq7+719s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15404

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" <bohners at p...> 
wrote:
> > Why *does* Hermione hate Fleur so much?
> 
> She's gorgeous, which is enough to make any girl resentful of 
another girl
> even if they're not actually competing for the same boy(s).  I know 
I used
> to really resent a friend of mine who was constantly the centre of 
guys'
> attention and was always being pestered for dates, because she made 
me feel
> ugly and unwanted by contrast (even though I didn't want any of the 
specific
> guys who were asking her out).

But Hermione's been pretty secure about those sorts of things in the 
past, and now would be a strange time to start resenting someone just 
for being attractive to boys, since now is when Hermione herself is 
suddenly the object of two boys' affection, which is not too shabby, 
after all.  And surely there've been girls at Hogwarts all along who 
get more than their fair share of boys' attention.  

> 
> Also, Fleur is full of herself.  (I like her in spite of this for 
some
> strange reason, but it's true nonetheless.)  She is a snob, and she
> constantly puts down Hogwarts -- which would be sure to raise 
Hermione's
> hackles, because it's one thing for Hermione as a Hogwarts student 
and a
> house-elf activist to find fault with her school, but it's another 
thing for
> an OUTSIDER to criticize it.

Now this I can buy.  Fleur is rather critical.  But Hermione's all 
about the whole 'international cooperation' thing and getting to know 
foreign students.  The Durmstrang students weren't full of glowing 
compliments for Hogwarts either.  But I guess if she sees Fleur as a 
rival, like you said, on top of it, then maybe.  But I still don't see 
how she can see Fleur as much of a rival when she's got her hands full 
of boys right now.  And it paints Hermione in a less flattering light 
than I like to imagine her...  I'm just going in circles now.

kimberly
the puzzled





From wings909 at aol.com  Wed Mar 28 19:25:21 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:25:21 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP Harry & Ginny?
Message-ID: <75.12438f75.27f394a1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15405

In a message dated 3/28/01 4:31:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
meckelburg at foni.net writes:

<< We know Ginny has a crush on Harry , but Harry just sees in her 
 the"little" sister of his best friend. That can change though!!  >>

Mecki--welcome aboard the good ship H/G.  This is your captain speaking : )  
(unless someone else has already claimed that post. : )  Anyhoo, welcome 
aboard!

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor






~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nothing is real.  It's all in the mind.  



From wings909 at aol.com  Wed Mar 28 19:30:24 2001
From: wings909 at aol.com (wings909 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:30:24 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
Message-ID: <69.1326a37b.27f395d0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15406

In a message dated 3/28/01 10:40:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
moongirlk at yahoo.com writes:

<< Always good to hear someone else likes H/G!  I'm afraid the captain of 
 our little (tiny, teensy, puny) ship is rather the quiet type.  Either 
 that, or he's disappeared completely.  ::climbing up on the rigging 
 and scanning the sadly sparse deck for signs of Cap'n Jim, then 
 raising my eyes to the horizon in case he's fallen overboard somewhere 
 along the way::  I haven't seen him around in awhile.  
 
 Anyway, welcome aboard, and don't worry about the complete lack of 
 evidence for our ship.  We live on hope here!
 
 kimberly
 quite possibly the lone crewmember of the H/G
  >>


Oh, good! We do have a captain!  LOL, I was beginning to wonder if I was the 
only member of the ship...I'll just settle for being the Queen of H/G fluff 
(you guys should check out my fanfics under the name Firebolt909 sometime). : 
)

As for the H/G Ship, we do live on hope, but I totally see it being fulfilled 
one day.  I just don't see it as a coincidence that Ginny and Lily's 
haircolor is red, something's gotta be hidden in that.  

Cheers,
Paula
Gryffindor




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nothing is real.  It's all in the mind.  



From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 19:36:41 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:36:41 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <005001c0b7a3$cc6817a0$988f23cf@rebeccab>
Message-ID: <99teg9+4brd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15407

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner" <bohners at p...> 
wrote:
> > Always good to hear someone else likes H/G!
> 
> I'm actually surprised that there aren't more people on this 
particular
> ship.
<snip of lovely, clever thoughts>
> 
> Getting back to Harry and Ginny, though...
> 
> > Anyway, welcome aboard, and don't worry about the complete lack of
> > evidence for our ship.  We live on hope here!
> 
> I don't think there's a complete lack of evidence.  We have lots of 
evidence
> on Ginny's side of things -- nobody can doubt *her* feelings for 
Harry.
> Presently, it's quite clear that Harry has no interest in Ginny:  
but I see
> a great deal of potential and some very good reasons for that to 
change.
> Harry is so close to the Weasley family as a whole, and relates so 
well to
> them on the whole, that there's already a bond there.  Ginny being a 
Weasley
> certainly gives her an "in" as far as spending time with Harry and 
getting
> to know him that other girls (with the exception of Hermione) don't 
have.
> It seems to me that Harry and Ginny actually have a very promising
> foundation for a lifelong relationship, if Ginny can only get over 
her infat
> uation and learn to see Harry as he really is, and of course if 
Harry can
> get beyond outward appearance (not to say that I think Ginny is 
necessarily
> unattractive, but that she isn't Harry's "type") and start looking 
at
> personality.  Oh, and of course we don't really know much about 
Ginny's true
> personality, so we'll need to see some of that too...
> 
> In any case, I think H/G makes more sense and has more of a solid 
basis than
> any other romantic pairing for Harry, with the possible exception of 
H/H
> (but as I've said above, I really think JKR has already dismissed 
that one
> in GoF, courtesy of Rita Skeeter).  

Far be it from me to dispute my own ship!  I'll take your thoughts as 
a form of evidence!  I think I'd call it more hints of the possibility 
than evidence, but I'll sure take it!  And you're right.  Ginny, at 
this point, has a better chance to be close to Harry than any girl 
besides Hermione.  He's never expressed any interest in the girls on 
his Quidditch team, and I don't think we're headed for Harry/Cho.  So 
it's more than possible for him to get closer to Ginny as a person 
independent of being Ron's sister, and with luck, he will.

You may not consider yourself a shipper, but as ours is such a 
sparsely populated ship, I'm sure we could find you quite a nice 
stateroom if you'd like to hang around!

kimberly




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 28 19:44:43 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 13:44:43 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP Essays...
References: <99t85p+43db@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013c01c0b7bf$8bf994c0$2a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15408


  > --- In HPforGrownups at egroups.com, "Rachelle Elliott"
<relliott at j...>
  > wrote:
  > > HP Club:
  > >
  > > Scholastic Books released the winners of the "How Harry Potter
  > Changed my Life"  Contest.  If you would like to read the winning
  > essays go to
  > http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/lifechange/index.htm
  > >
  > > I found all of the essays wonderful but, Ashley M. Age 14
touched
  > my heart.  After reading the essays, I really don't want to ever
hear
  > again that Harry Potter is bad for children.
  > >
  > > Rachelle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I listened to the ones that were recorded and read the ones that were not. I
cried through most of them.

JKR has got to feel just so very blessed after hearing/reading these
entries, as well as all the others. To be able to give lost children hope,
has just got to be the richest gift that anyone could ask.

The one story reminded me of my own son and I. He lived with his dad... for
reasons I choose not to go into. When I would call, after hi, how are you?
how is school? ... and his short answers, we did not have much to say. I
love you and goodbye soon followed. He probably went out to play. I cried.
For us, it was not Harry Potter, but Nintendo... followed by mutual interest
in computers. From then on, we were close and remained so.  Recently, when
he realized how obsessed I am with Harry Potter, he emailed me to say that
he has been reading them because he didn't want to be left out of that part
of my life. (he knows how obsessed I am)

Thanks for re-posting that url. I would have eventually gotten around to
going there... as I am slowly working my way through the list... but I
really needed a good cry and to feel good today ... and be reminded how
special my relationship is with my son.... right before he gets married in
September.

Doreen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>








From jferer at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 19:51:05 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:51:05 -0000
Subject: SHIP OBHWF (aka One Big Happy Weasley Family)
In-Reply-To: <99tb1l+6fck@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tfb9+n3he@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15409

Heidi:"Oh, I agree, it will be WONDERFUL for Harry to find family 
feelings  amid the Weasleys (assuming that ron and/or percy don't 
become pawns  of the dark side, that is). I just don't think that 
marriage is the way for him to be it, and I have 2 reasons why - one 
personal and one a little more objective (although all of this is 
clearly IMHO!)

Personal first. Ebony & I were talking about this just last night. The 
Weasley Family seems to be the type of fmaily where, probably under 
Molly's guide, the "family" expands to include people who need to be 
included."

I agree with that. But if R and H get together, and Ginny ends up with 
who-knows-who, or nobody, it's a little awkward. It might work, 
though.

Heidi:"If Harry was dating Ginny, would Molly be as  willing to allow 
him to spend the summer at the Burrow, relatively  unsupervised, or 
would she be concerned about those teen hormones?  And if nothing 
happened until they were 17 (we don't know exacly how  much younger 
than Harry Ginny is - I'm guessing she's a spring baby,  like Ron, but 
then they began dating, it could *so* change his  relationship with 
the Weasleys...I think it would *ruin* Harry's relationship with 
Molly, and to a  lesser level, Arthur (although this relationship 
isn't as vital to  harry as long as sirius is alive)"

I'm more optimistic about Molly and Arthur's wisdom and love of Ginny 
and Harry. They understand hormones, and they'll keep things in hand 
in their usual loving way. They also understand that no relationship 
is that smooth, and when a storm comes they will be on Ginny's and 
Harry's side.

It's just my admiration of the Weasley family is very strong, and I 
think they can weather just about anything.

As far as how wizards get wed goes, I've never seen anything in any HP 
book to suggest they don't get married just like us. For all we know, 
there's a chapel at Hogwarts and churches in Hogsmeade. They have 
Christmas and Easter, after all.




From bohners at pobox.com  Wed Mar 28 19:57:34 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:57:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP OBHWF (aka One Big Happy Weasley Family)
References: <99tb1l+6fck@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c0b7c1$56d2ca80$988f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 15410

Heidi noted that if Harry and Ginny got together, there could be all manner
of complications in Harry's relationship with the Weasley family as a whole
and Molly in particular (especially if H & G broke up later on).

This is true, but not necessarily true.  To use a real-life example, my
sister-in-law has been a close friend of mine since we were both 14.  She
spent her teen years hanging around with me, my parents and my three older
brothers in a very Harry-with-the-Weasleys fashion.  She was especially
close to the youngest of my brothers, who was almost like a "best friend" to
her.  However, during her teen years she showed no romantic interest in my
brothers (just a massive unrequited crush on my handsome cousin).

When she turned twenty, she dated my oldest brother (who had always kind of
liked her) once, then decided that he was "too much like a brother" to her
and they broke up.  About three years later she started dating my middle
brother, a relationship which lasted about four months before it, too, broke
up.  Finally, in 1995, she began dating my youngest brother, the one who had
always been her closest friend:  they got married in 1996.

You'd think that with all these on-and-off relationships with my brothers
there'd be some bitter feelings in the family.  Well, there were a few tense
moments right at the time the breakups happened, but my parents were smart
enough not to meddle or take sides.  I kept on being friends with this girl
because, well, she was my friend, and she hadn't done anything criminal or
deliberately cruel to my brothers, so why not?  I did think it was funny,
though, that she seemed destined to join our family.  When she started
dating the last of my brothers I recall joking to my mother, "I sure hope
that this one works out, because if it doesn't, the only ones left are me
and the cat, and I think it's safe to say that neither one of us is
interested."

Anyway, all that being said, I think it *is* possible for Harry and Ginny to
have a relationship without causing major upheaval, paranoia, and resentment
in the Weasley family.  Even if the relationship didn't work out.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Wed Mar 28 19:54:44 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:54:44 -0000
Subject: Did Harry Apparate?
Message-ID: <99tfi4+8ktb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15411

Just read QTA.

I always assumed in PS/SS chapter 2 (when Harry's thinking about the 
strange things that have happened) that Harry had taken "a magical 
flying leap" or some such to end up on the roof of the school.  
According to QTA, though, wizards can't just "fly" so now I'm revising 
my assumption.  Did Harry apparate to the top of the chimney?  If so, 
why?  If he was trying to get behind the big trash cans, why isn't that 
where he apparated to?  Assuming that he did apparate and doesn't have 
some power that other wizards don't have.

a.





From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Mar 28 19:54:40 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:54:40 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <007001c0b7b9$63b7da40$8211eda9@kwan>
Message-ID: <99tfi0+mbg4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15412

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > > Always good to hear someone else likes H/G!
> 
> Oh, the problems with being a slasher...  The first time I've read 
this, I
> thought it was Hermione/Ginny!
> 
> But, back to the unfortunate reality, I don't want to see 
Harry/Ginny until  Ginny is a) more grown-up, and b) more developed 
as a character.  And both  together, too.  I want to see how she'd 
act as a teenager before supporting any ships.  Also, anyone know if 
there are *any* magical colleges?
> 
> little Alex

Didn't JKR say that there are no magical colleges; that once you've 
graduated Hogwarts, that's it? And as for Ginny, I'm in complete 
agreement. She needs to be more grown-up and more developed as a 
character before she can be considered as a romantic partner for 
Harry. As to the argument that she will be able to smother Harry with 
the pure, unconditional healing balm of her love....YUCK. <g> Harry's 
a lovely little boy, and he's been through some of the worst things 
life can throw at anyone, and I'm the last person to deny him love, 
but "She will always be there for him, a healing balm, a safe harbor; 
and Harry will be good for her because he won't take her for 
granted" --- is mildly terrifying, especially following on the heels 
of the recent discussions of the lack of strong female characters in 
HP. The scenario makes it sound like Ginny will remain the boring 
wimp she is in canon (and she is a boring wimp in canon, Molly 
Weasley's daughter or not), and sit around at home with a pile of 
enchanted bandages, waiting for Harry to come home from fighting the 
Dark Lord so that she can patch up his wounds and tell him how very 
very brave and heroic he is and how he's so very clever and she'll 
always love him no matter what stupid things he does...*shudders* 
Also I don't see where we're getting that Harry wouldn't take her for 
granted. Why not, if she's just going to sit around being a safe 
harbor and a healing balm and basically acting like his mother?  

I think a lot of my support for H/H comes from the fact that I don't 
think that what Harry needs is to be smothered in blind, 
unconditional love from his romantic partner; I think he needs an 
equal. The kind of love he's missing in his life is parental love. He 
can get that from Sirius, and from Molly and Arthur Weasley, who I do 
believe care for him very much. It is a very bad idea for Harry to be 
getting the unconditional "parental" love he's missing in his life 
from his romantic partner. He needs someone strong for that; someone 
who will tell him when he's doing something stupid and dangerous, 
which he often does, someone who can help him, assist him, and be an 
equal partner to him. Just as Harry has chosen for best friends two 
people who are brave, strong and intelligent, so I believe that he 
would want the same thing in a romantic partner. 

I'm not saying Ginny isn't brave or strong or intelligent, just that 
we've *never* seen it in the books if she is. IMHO, we'd need to see 
this in canon before an H/G matchup would be believable. Even Fleur 
has had more character development than Ginny, and I'd rather see her 
with Harry, because at least she has a personality. I don't think 
this has anything much to do with being an H/H shipper either; many 
of the book reviews of the HP series I've read have noted Ginny's 
extremely shadowy, vacant characterization. I'm *perfectly* happy for 
Harry to end up with someone other than Hermione as long as that 
person is a strong, intelligent female character (or a male 
character. I'm not picky. I'd rather see him with Ron than Ginny; at 
least Ron would be an equal partner). And Ginny just 
isn't yet. We can extrapolate from the fact that Molly is a strong 
woman to say that Ginny might grow up to be one as well, but IMHO 
that's a poor substitute for actual character development.

I quite agree that the loving, close-knit Weasleys are a blessing in 
Harry's life. I just don't agree that he has to marry or date or be 
interested in Ginny to be a part of that family. One of the things I 
love about the Weasleys is how they have opened their home to Harry. 
I honestly believe that Mrs. Weasley truly loves Harry as if he were 
a child of her own, and that he doesn't need the crowbar of a 
relationship with Ginny to shoehorn him into the bosom of the Weasley 
family; he's already there.

Cassandra




From bafoster at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 28 20:00:04 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:00:04 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Harry Apparate?
References: <99tfi4+8ktb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC242C4.D1B90B81@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15413



aprilgc at ivillage.com wrote:
> 
> Just read QTA.
> 
> I always assumed in PS/SS chapter 2 (when Harry's thinking about the
> strange things that have happened) that Harry had taken "a magical
> flying leap" or some such to end up on the roof of the school.
> According to QTA, though, wizards can't just "fly" so now I'm revising
> 
> my assumption.  Did Harry apparate to the top of the chimney?  If so,
> why?  If he was trying to get behind the big trash cans, why isn't
> that
> where he apparated to?  Assuming that he did apparate and doesn't have
> 
> some power that other wizards don't have.
> 
> a.

I've wondered about that myself, and the best I could come up with is
that Harry was thinking about being "somewhere safe" and ended up on the
roof.  Just like when he was talking to the snake, it wasn't his
intention to break the glass.  His powers are completely uncontrolled at
this point, so he can't really do exactly what he might want to. :)

Barbara :)

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                       Barbara Foster Williams                      |
|                       bafoster at mindspring.com                      |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|I wanted a perfect ending..... Now I've learned, the hard way, that |
|some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear         |
|beginning, middle and end. Life is about not knowing, having to     |
|change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without        |
|knowing what's going to happen next.               -Gilda Radner    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------



From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 28 20:04:45 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:04:45 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Harry Apparate?
References: <99tfi4+8ktb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017001c0b7c2$5683f1c0$2a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15414

I always assumed in PS/SS chapter 2 (when Harry's thinking about the
strange things that have happened) that Harry had taken "a magical
flying leap" or some such to end up on the roof of the school.
According to QTA, though, wizards can't just "fly" so now I'm revising
my assumption.  Did Harry apparate to the top of the chimney?  If so,
why?  If he was trying to get behind the big trash cans, why isn't that
where he apparated to?  Assuming that he did apparate and doesn't have
some power that other wizards don't have.

a.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Maybe it is like the wizard who got splinched ... he just didn't do it right
cuz he didn't know how ... but it happened because, as we and he have found
out, he has more power than he realizes. Also, he could have seen the roof
in his peripheral vision... and being not trained ... when he wanted to go
behind the trashcans, landed on the roof, which he had also seen.
Doreen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>




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From jellycrys at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 20:03:43 2001
From: jellycrys at hotmail.com (crystal white)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:03:43 -0500
Subject: Ron's gift
Message-ID: <F159KiXXc4QzPW8AAkj00002802@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15415

As I was reading the last digest, I came across where somebody (apologies to 
the author of that) quoted Ron saying that a really clever Death Eater could 
fool Dumbledore.  I believe it has been brought up in chats before (and if 
not, the person who suggested this to me can explain...) that Ron has a gift 
for fortune-telling.  Perhaps Crouch Jr. was not the only DE fooling 
Dumbledore.  I have always wondered what happened that made Dumbledore so 
sure of Snape's trustworthiness....

-Crystal :@)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Wed Mar 28 20:06:24 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:06:24 -0000
Subject: a cure for werewolfs?
In-Reply-To: <998duc+8q8e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tg80+m2rv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15416

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., alggu at h... wrote:
<snip>
> In PoA, Lupin said "My parents tried everything, but in those days 
> there was no cure." (p. 258) Presumably this means that there is a 
> cure nowadays, but you have to perform the charm or whatever it takes 
> rather soon after you have been bitten. Otherwise I think that 
> Dumbledore would have seen to that Lupin would have been cured, since 
> he is such an excellent teacher.

In chapter 13 of PS/SS  (p220 US), one of the things they do in DADA is 
study the "different ways of treating werewolf bites".  I tend to agree 
that you have to be treated right after the bite, but that you can be 
cured (otherwise it would be no different than treating any dog bite, I 
would think, and not a subject for DADA).
a.
who just read hard copy of SS - please forgive her rehash of old topics 
<g>





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 20:11:41 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:11:41 -0000
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semicolon debate
In-Reply-To: <99t4tg+pep3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tght+2o73@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15417

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., brandgwen at h... wrote:

> Fleur's manner was haughty from the beginning, which ticked Hermione 
> off.  The first mention of her follows:
> 
> "'... I hope and trust your stay [at Hogwarts] will be both 
> comfortable and enjoyable.'
> 
> One of the Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her
> head gave what was unmistakeably a derisive laugh.
> 
> 'No one's making you stay!' Hermione whispered, bristling at her."
>      GoF, Ch 16 The Goblet of Fire.
> 

I believe this.  She may well have had a bad first impression, but 
Hermione's usually very open-minded.  After the second task Fleur quit 
whining and became much more pleasant but Hermione continued to hate 
her.  It just seems so unlike her.  

<snip of "Blue-stocking discourse" explanation>
> Whether or not this is true in the current context is a matter for 
> more knowledgable people that myself.  However, Hermione is a young 
> girl, just reaching adolescence.  She prizes her intelligence and 
> values such masculine traits as courage and comradary.  Her attitude 
> to her looks is functional and she considers preening to be fatuous.  
> For someone to find her attractive, they're going to have to look 
> beyond the exterior and she has no intention of altering that.
> 
> Now, in walks Fleur, the anti-Hermione.  This person looks good and 
> knows it.  What's more, she maximises her looks; anyone who has ever 
> had hair down to their waist will know that it hark work.  Her 
manner 
> is feminine.  She attracts attention by walking across a room - she 
> doesn't need to think, she just has to be.
> 
> I'm not suggesting Hermione was just jealous.  She might have been, 
> but I also think her attitude could be attributed to a degree of 
> contempt for the steroetype Fleur represented.  Fleur is an 
> affirmation of what Hermione must have already started to notice.  
> Smart, practical people can be daughters, students, peers and
> friends, and can be appreciated accordingly.  It's not as easy to
> find appreciation as a girl.  Your average teenager will look at the 
> veela first.
> 

I can see that, although I think what that amounts to really in my 
mind is jealousy.  I (in my also R/H tendencies) would say it's maybe 
a cute jealousy over the boy she likes, if that's the case, and not 
the less pleasant general hatred of another girl just because she's 
pretty.  But the snottiness that Fleur demonstrated at the beginning 
probably didn't help much either way.

I guess it's not something I'll ever be able to know for sure anyway.

kimberly





From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 28 20:16:53 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:16:53 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy or Ron: Pawns of the Dark Side?
References: <99td6l+qct0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <018e01c0b7c4$092ea9e0$2a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15418

>  Penny wrote:
> Ron, OTOH, still strikes me as someone who could be an unwitting pawn of
the Dark side.  He has his own very strong ambitions that were emphasized
quite alot in GoF.  I am not arguing that he would ever ever knowingly
betray Harry.  But, he does have problems resisting the Imperius curse for
example.  Might this not be an indication that he would be a more likely
target for Voldy's forces than Hermione?  If you were going to target
someone close to Harry -- Ron makes the most sense
to me.

I agree.  Ron is not only ambitious, but he's tired of being Harry's
shadow and he's tired of being poor (both emphasized in GoF).  Gred &
Forge at least see a possibility for making their own money (the joke
shop & props).  Ron sees that "everything he owns is rubbish" (not sure
of the exact quote, but says something along similar lines several
times during GoF.  I'm not saying that he would go evil for money. I do
believe, though, that if an opportunity to get money came along that
didn't "seem" like it would hurt anybody -- Ron could be used.  Add
that to the Imperius curse, and he's really vulnerable.
a.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
ooooooh ... I like that idea! What could be worse than Harry facing
Voldemort? Harry facing Ron Weasley! And who is better at figuring out
people's weaknesses and using them to his own advantage than Voldemort,
himself? I wonder if this idea has occurred to JKR? Maybe that is why she
says *she* would never kill off Ron, Harry's best friend. Maybe this is why
she shows us Ron's desire in the Mirror of Erised and the possibities for
animosity between Harry and Ron.

It is truly one of those things which makes you go, "hmmmmmm."

Doreen CPW
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>








From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 28 20:26:09 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:26:09 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] New elements
References: <99rriu+a8v2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01aa01c0b7c5$53d6cbc0$2a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15419



Every once in awhile someone raises the question of why we don't hear
about this or that thing until a later book.  E.g. why do we never
hear the term "Death Eaters" until GoF?  Is this a Flint on JKR's
part? etc.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Could part of the reason be ... the books are not seven books, but one big
book, split into seven parts? This is JKR's definition of HP.

Doreen
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 20:22:27 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:22:27 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 36 Summary
References: <3ABEBBE5.4EADA3B6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <005601c0b7c4$d0f0f820$ca561c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 15420

> 3. Any thoughts about what causes one of the wands in a pair of
dueling
> "brother" wands to gain dominance and force the other one to start
> regurgitating spells through the Priori Incantatem effect?

Doreen wrote:
> I think since they both have feathers from a Phoenix, and the
Phoenix's
> song was in Harry's head, it was helping him and not Voldemort. And
> an aside ... I wonder what Dumbledore, Sirius, Snape, and Lupin's
wands
> are made of? And if this has anything to do with the OoP?

I think there is more to it than the song of the Phoenix in Harry's
head. In CoS Fawkes came to Harry's rescue and healed him with his
tears from the venom of the basilisk. Keeping that in mind, Harry has
a strong connection to Fawkes and I think this allowed him to be
"stronger" than Voldemort and be able to force V.'s wand to
regurgitate the spells.
My other theory is that Harry is "pure" he only wants to defend
himself and murder is not on his mind, while V clearly wants to kill
Harry.

> 7. JKR confirmed in one of the chats that Arabella Figg, part of the
> "old gang" in Dumbledore's camp, is the same "Mrs. Figg" with the
cats
> who lives around the corner from the Dursleys on Privet Drive and
had
> baby-sat Harry for years in the past.  What has been her likely role
in
> living in such close proximity to Harry all those years?

Hmmm, I can imagine that the two Mrs. Figg are one and the same
person. What puzzles me though is, that she seems to be indifferent
towards Harry. If she is a witch then she should be aware of what's
going on in the Dursley household and know how Harry is treated there.
It took Mcgonagall only one afternoon of observing the family to be
appalled by the idea of leaving baby Harry there.
Mrs. Figg doesn't seem to question why she's babysitting Harry, when
he's old enough to join the family on outings, or why Harry's clothes
are always too big and worn, whereas Duddley has good clothing.
If these two Mrs. Figg are indeed one and the same person, I can
imagine that Dumbledoor asked her to keep the spell alive that
protects Harry when he's under the care of his relatives.

> 9. Was anyone else irritated at Hermione for interrupting the
emotional
> moment between Harry and Molly Weasley when they first read this
> chapter?  We, of course, later understand what she was doing, but
what
> was your reaction when you first read this chapter?

Annoyed is more like it, but then Hermione probably wasn't paying very
close attention to Mrs Weasley and Harry at this time, or trying to
ignore it. How else would she have been able to catch Skeeter?

Rena


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 28 20:11:27 2001
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (Carole Estes)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:11:27 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
References: <99t9tu+mga2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005501c0b7c3$462e0260$b344d63f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 15421


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ferer" <jferer at yahoo.com>

> Why would anyone like the idea of Harry and Ginny? Well, there's the
> One Big Happy Weasley Family idea, which a lot of our brothers and
> sisters here find too saccharine for words (Walton Mountain with
> spells). I don't agree with them. A family like the Weasleys would be
> a blessing to a Harry beaten up emotionally and likely physically by
> his experiences fighting the Death Eaters and Voldemort.

As Heidi and Cassie have said.  Harry doesn't need Ginny to be a part of the
Weasley family.  He already is and I agree with Heidi that if Harry were to
date Ginny it would certainly change a lot of the dynamics of his
relationship with the whole family...and not necessarily for the better.


> It all depends on what kind of woman you think is right for Harry.
> Hermione wants an intellectually and emotionally strong partner,
> somebody who will both stimulate and challenge her. She's maturing
> beautifully, and she'll improve, but she's been insensitive before
> with people's emotions (Parvati's rabbit, for instance). She'll work
> hard to keep Harry's head straight and in the world; she's not going
> to let him mope with his memories of death and terror. You could argue
> that's what Harry needs. I like Hermione a lot.

And this is the kind of woman I think is right for Harry.

>
> Ginny is Molly Weasley's daughter, and she comes from a close-knit
> loving family. She's not going to be a wimp -- Molly sure isn't -- and
> nobody's doormat, but she will love Harry with the kind of devotion
> and passion that the quiet girls develop. (Note to younger male
> members of this group: remember that.) She will always be there for
> him, a healing balm, a safe harbor; and Harry will be good for her
> because he won't take her for granted.

What exactly do you mean by "quiet girls"?  Not trying to sound offended
(I'm not) but extremely curious. To characterize "quiet girls" as being ones
that will "always be there for him, a healing balm, a safe harbor"  is a bit
of an overgeneralization, don't you think?  Quiet women are not always
passive and passive women are not always quiet.

Plus how do we know she is a "quiet girl"  as has been repeated many times,
we know so little about her.  She's quiet around Harry, but talks a lot
around her family.  She could be a party animal for all we know that will
take Harry's poor damaged heart and stomp it into the ground with her
stiletto.  I know...I know...not likely, but anything is possible.

carole





From gerstin at pacbell.net  Wed Mar 28 20:41:57 2001
From: gerstin at pacbell.net (gerstin at pacbell.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:41:57 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's wand
Message-ID: <99tial+c5hc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15422

Hello fellow Potter-holics-

I hope this hasn't been addressed before: Does anyone have a theory 
about how Voldemort got his wand back at the end of GoF? OK, yes, he 
received it from Wormtail, but how did Wormtail get a hold of it? 
Voldie used the wand to kill James and Lily, then was struck down by 
his own curse deflected off Harry. At that point, Voldie (by his own 
admission, in the GoF scene where he described all this to Harry and 
the DeathEaters) was bodiless, not a ghost, but not alive either. He 
obviously couldn't have picked up the wand. So that means the wand is 
lying there in the ruin of the Potter home? (And, by the way, what 
happened to Voldie's body?? James' and Lily's bodies were there in
the ruins, right?? No mention of another body....)

So, any theories about how the wand went from the Potter home, to 
being in Wormtail's possession? Does it really seem likely that 
Wormtail had the presence of mind to head over to the Potter home
upon learning of Voldie's defeat, and pick up the wand? That seems
unlikely to me. But if not him, then who? And how did he/she know to go 
find the wand?


Thanks!

-Ed
===========
insert clever signature line here
===========





From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Wed Mar 28 20:38:09 2001
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (Jamieson)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:38:09 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does anyone else have a problem with the amazon.com  HP store tagline?
References: <99t96e+k4sj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC24BB1.95D627E3@sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 15423

I feel that whoever wrote that had to of read or heard some of the books. Mudblood isn't a word that's been on the backs of the books or on the dust jackets. But all that aside, it's not a word I would have chosen to put as a tag line. I
don't think the writer of those words actually read the word in context, or s/he would have realised it was not a word to be used in an add.

S/he could have just flipped through the books for ideas, looking at chapter headlines for ideas (there is a chapter called "Mudbloods and Murmers" in CoS) and chose the words at whim.

Then again, people who know nothing about Harry Potter will not find anything offensive in the word. I think it just depends on your prespective. I (and others probably) feel the word shouldn't be there, but I guess it comes down to freedom
of speech.

And sure, words like jap, wop or kike are known is society as bad words. Words that some wish souldn't be in existence. But others may argue that Harry Potter is fiction, therefore the word mudbloods doesn't have any bareing.

So, you can argue the point that the word shouldn't have been used, or you can overlook it. Those whoKNOW HP can't overlook it, but the general public will. Again, I guess it's perspective.

I did have a point, but I don't know if I made it correctly. This could be the start of an interesting dialouge, however...

Hugs and Peace to all,
Jamieson

heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu wrote:

> "Author J.K. Rowling brought to life a world of magic, mystery, and
> mayhem when she introduced Harry Potter to millions of readers. Now
> kids can have more adventures with Harry and his friends. Muggles,
> mudbloods, and wizards alike are bound to be entertained by these
> games and puzzles."
>
> Look at the last sentence. Do you get the feeling that whoever wrote
> that may've read GoF, but never read CoS? In GoF, the
> whole "horribleness" of that word is alluded to but if you hadn't
> read CoS, you might not realize just HOW horrible it is.
>
> But I don't want to sound silly in emailing amazon.com about it - I'm
> hoping that by opening the subject up for discussion here, maybe
> someone on this list from Scholastic or Warner Bros/AOL will read it
> and let amazon know that the tagline is, well, like using words like
> (just for illustration purposes!) Jap, Wop or Kike...i.e. not a good
> idea.
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
"....dream harder, dream true..."





From LavenderChic at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 20:46:25 2001
From: LavenderChic at hotmail.com (Rachel Taylor)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:46:25 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Harry Apparate?
Message-ID: <F138JagXTi8M19VMczi00002c42@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15424



>I always assumed in PS/SS chapter 2 (when Harry's thinking about the
>strange things that have happened) that Harry had taken "a magical
>flying leap" or some such to end up on the roof of the school.
>According to QTA, though, wizards can't just "fly" so now I'm revising
>my assumption.  Did Harry apparate to the top of the chimney?  If so,
>why?  If he was trying to get behind the big trash cans, why isn't that
>where he apparated to?  Assuming that he did apparate and doesn't have
>some power that other wizards don't have.
>
>a.
>

Im glad to see that im not the only person that this bothered... Perhaps it 
was like Neville bouncing when his uncle dropped him out the window.  Harry 
just "bounced" on to the school.  I hope that it is just forshadowing 
though, like the Parsaltounge bit.  Speaking of which, what about how harry 
turned his teachers wig blue?  Would that be a bit of transfiguration?  I 
always thought that the powers that show up uncontrolled, before training 
would be the ones that were easyest to learn for the young witch or wizard.  
But Harry seems to be better at Defence against the Dark Arts rather that 
Transfiguration.

-Rachel

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From LavenderChic at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 20:52:14 2001
From: LavenderChic at hotmail.com (Rachel Taylor)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:52:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand
Message-ID: <F27HIUv9nDqUV4qUlyu0000293b@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15425



>
>Hello fellow Potter-holics-
>
>I hope this hasn't been addressed before: Does anyone have a theory
>about how Voldemort got his wand back at the end of GoF? OK, yes, he
>received it from Wormtail, but how did Wormtail get a hold of it?
>Voldie used the wand to kill James and Lily, then was struck down by
>his own curse deflected off Harry. At that point, Voldie (by his own
>admission, in the GoF scene where he described all this to Harry and
>the DeathEaters) was bodiless, not a ghost, but not alive either. He
>obviously couldn't have picked up the wand. So that means the wand is
>lying there in the ruin of the Potter home? (And, by the way, what
>happened to Voldie's body?? James' and Lily's bodies were there in
>the ruins, right?? No mention of another body....)
>
>So, any theories about how the wand went from the Potter home, to
>being in Wormtail's possession?



My Question, which goes right along with this is- If Wormtail was a rat, he 
obviously couldn't carry a wand either, so how do either of them have wands 
to kill Frank and Bertha? (assuming that they were the first two killed 
after Lily and James)  Im presuming that someone else was at the house that 
night and picked up the remainder of voldies stuff.... Probably a character 
yet to be introduced.

-Rachel
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From katie at vquill.com  Wed Mar 28 20:49:21 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:49:21 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Harry Apparate?
In-Reply-To: <F138JagXTi8M19VMczi00002c42@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010328124842.00b96440@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15426

At 03:46 PM 3/28/01 -0500, you wrote:
>    I
>always thought that the powers that show up uncontrolled, before training
>would be the ones that were easyest to learn for the young witch or wizard.
>But Harry seems to be better at Defence against the Dark Arts rather that
>Transfiguration.
>
>-Rachel

Well, he showed talent for DADA first -- he did that when he was 1. ;)

-Katie




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 20:54:07 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:54:07 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <99t9tu+mga2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tj1f+eatv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15427

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:

> Jim is on deck of the good ship H/G. A crowd of D/G'ers had 
imprisoned 
> him in the hold, but he has escaped.

There's my captain!!  YAY!
> 
> Why would anyone like the idea of Harry and Ginny? Well, there's the 
> One Big Happy Weasley Family idea, which a lot of our brothers and 
> sisters here find too saccharine for words (Walton Mountain with 
> spells). I don't agree with them. A family like the Weasleys would 
be 
> a blessing to a Harry beaten up emotionally and likely physically by 
> his experiences fighting the Death Eaters and Voldemort. 
> 
> I'm not so anti-H/H as I am pro H/G. I know there's very little 
> support in canon for H/G. OTOH, there isn't much support for H/H 
> either, aside from their closeness and proximity.
> 
> It all depends on what kind of woman you think is right for Harry. 
> Hermione wants an intellectually and emotionally strong partner, 
> somebody who will both stimulate and challenge her. She's maturing 
> beautifully, and she'll improve, but she's been insensitive before 
> with people's emotions (Parvati's rabbit, for instance). She'll work 
> hard to keep Harry's head straight and in the world; she's not going 
> to let him mope with his memories of death and terror. You could 
argue 
> that's what Harry needs. I like Hermione a lot.
> 
> Ginny is Molly Weasley's daughter, and she comes from a close-knit 
> loving family. She's not going to be a wimp -- Molly sure isn't -- 
and 
> nobody's doormat, but she will love Harry with the kind of devotion 
> and passion that the quiet girls develop. (Note to younger male 
> members of this group: remember that.) She will always be there for 
> him, a healing balm, a safe harbor; and Harry will be good for her 
> because he won't take her for granted.
> 
> I come down on the side of Ginny, and, I admit it. OBHWF. So, all of 
> us downtrodden H/G'ers will repeat our daily affirmation:
> 
> "Say it loud, we're corny and we're proud. We like Her-my-oh-ninny, 
> but we're going to root for Ginny!"Always good to hear someone else 
> likes H/G!

::Sniff::
He's a genius!  But he is a bit mad, yes.
And so this isn't just a 'what he said' kind of post, let me just add 
that Ginny's also got an advantage in that she doesn't and hasn't 
mothered Harry quite as much as Hermione has.  Hermione's friendship 
has been very good for Harry, but she has tended to nag in the past.  

kimberly
setting up the buffet tables for a party now the captain's back!




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Mar 28 20:53:56 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:53:56 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Comments on Various Shipping Posts
Message-ID: <3AC24F64.23EF3700@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15428

Hi --

I don't have time for my usual in-depth analysis of everyone's posts &
positions & arguments.  I'm having a baby in 2-3 weeks and .... I have
*alot* to do before she arrives.  I will leave the in-depth responses to
my very able shipmates .... in fact I see that Cassie & Heidi have both
already plunged in with lots of great points.  :--)

First, a friendly ADMIN reminder is in order.  If your shipping post
doesn't use examples from canon or draw on canon to make conclusions or
mention the canon in some way, it belongs in OT-Chatter.  :--)  [Most
everyone's posts in the last couple of days are fine -- but I saw a
handful of exceptions -- namely the "Welcome to the H/G ship" type
posts]

GINNY: I still stand by my assertion that she's the least developed
Weasley character.  Amy Z made some good points, but I do feel I know
more about Bill than Ginny.  I also do not agree that there's strong
evidence of a Hermione/Ginny friendship.  As I mentioned yesterday, the
fact that Hermione confided the identity of her date to Ginny may not
have anything to do with close friendship.  It's plausible that she felt
compelled to do so because Neville told Ginny that she (Ginny) was his
second choice.

I disagree with the notion that Hermione & Ginny hang out at the Burrow
& the World Cup.  They share a room/tent.  That's about it.  The Trio
does not include her in their private conversations at the Burrow, and
in fact, it's Hermione who makes a point of being sure they don't say
too much about things in front of her.  They don't invite her to come
along when they walk around the campgrounds all day.  She's apparently
back at the tent with her father & Percy or perhaps with kids from her
own year.

I agree with every single word of Cassie's post about Ginny and why H/G
doesn't make any sense at this point.  Harry needs a strong partner; not
a wimpy simpering little motherly romantic partner.  He doesn't need
mothering; he needs a help-mate, an equal.  Ginny may *be* that person,
but if she is, we don't know about it yet.  I also agree that one cannot
extrapolate Ginny will be a strong woman just because she's Molly
Weasley's daughter.  The mother-daughter dynamic is extremely complex.
I'm not against H/G *if* Ginny turns out to be a strong person, worthy
of being our hero's equal partner.  But right now, she ain't there.
IMO.

THE KISS: Yes, Kathy, many H/H types don't feel as strongly about the
Kiss as I do.  We don't know if JKR considered how teenage readers would
react to that kiss.  Many of the teenage readers on both sides of the
pond (though not unanimous by any means) seem to interpret the Kiss as
evidence that Hermione likes Harry.  JKR, OTOH, may have thrown that in
as a detail that is nothing more than how the R/H types interpret: a
show of concern & nothing more.  But, she does a pretty fair job of
accurately portraying teenagers in other respects, so it's also possible
that she did consider this to be significant.  She did highlight it
textually ("something she'd never done before").  Whatever.

HERMIONE SPENDING TIME WITH BOTH BOYS DURING THE "FIGHT": Other than
that one sentence that indicates she tried to mediate the dispute, what
other evidence is there that she spent much time with Ron?  If she *did*
spend time with Ron, I don't know *when* she did this since she's
described as being with Harry all the time.

> Kathy: Pretty much every time Harry is by himself, Ron and Hermione are together.
>
Uh .... *huge* unsupported assumption, don't 'cha think?  <g> Sure,
Harry finds them in the Common Room from time to time, but it's very
presumptive in my mind to say that *every time* Harry is by himself, Ron
is with Hermione.  Heidi, for example, thinks that Hermione is with
Draco during these time periods, and she might well be.  I'm more
convinced of that than she's with Ron constantly.  :--)

SEMI-COLON DEBATE: Thanks to ship-mate Heidi for making a new &
insightful point.  We don't know that Hermione wasn't already scowling
when Harry notices this.  Excellent point!

HARRY/HERMIONE -- There still seems to be some mis-impressions.  Most
H/H types (probably all) will tell you: yes, it's clear!  Harry does not
show a smidgeon of interest in Hermione!"  But, he also doesn't show a
smidgeon of interest in Ginny & that doesn't stop the H/G shippers.
:--)

Seriously, the real point of FITD is that *if* Hermione likes Harry and
not Ron, then she's not going to get together with Ron, is she?  Maybe.
Maybe his interest would eventually win her over.  Then again, maybe her
interest in Harry might eventually win him over (it's the same argument
that the H/G types make after all).  Most H/H types see it as something
that happens post-Hogwarts.  Many of us believe Harry won't have time
for canon romance.

There *are* people out there who read the books through, aren't obsessed
& haven't read a lick of fanfic & *still* come to the H/H conclusion.
My sister is one of those types.  I asked her over Christmas what her
intepretation of the Kiss was.  She shrugged & said, "Hermione likes
Harry."  I explained the R/H position in brief.  She looked at me
incredulously and said, "There are *really* people who think Ron &
Hermione are going to get together?  Pshaw!  Hermione likes Harry; it's
as clear as day."

CATHERINE'S QUESTIONS: Catherine raises some issues about the Yule Ball
scene that have already been covered.  Normally, I might re-hash the H/H
interpretation of that scene.  But, I simply don't have time so ...
you'll just have to wait & see the Romance Pairings FAQ.  It covers our
ship's arguments on that score, and yes, we do have valid
(straight-face) arguments to make.  :--)

Penny






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 20:59:33 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:59:33 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's wand
In-Reply-To: <F27HIUv9nDqUV4qUlyu0000293b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <99tjbl+h5i9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15429

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rachel Taylor" <LavenderChic at h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> >
> >Hello fellow Potter-holics-
> >
> >I hope this hasn't been addressed before: Does anyone have a theory
> >about how Voldemort got his wand back at the end of GoF? OK, yes, 
he
> >received it from Wormtail, but how did Wormtail get a hold of it?
> >Voldie used the wand to kill James and Lily, then was struck down 
by
> >his own curse deflected off Harry. At that point, Voldie (by his 
own
> >admission, in the GoF scene where he described all this to Harry 
and
> >the DeathEaters) was bodiless, not a ghost, but not alive either. 
He
> >obviously couldn't have picked up the wand. So that means the wand 
is
> >lying there in the ruin of the Potter home? (And, by the way, what
> >happened to Voldie's body?? James' and Lily's bodies were there in
> >the ruins, right?? No mention of another body....)
> >
> >So, any theories about how the wand went from the Potter home, to
> >being in Wormtail's possession?
> 
> 
> 
> My Question, which goes right along with this is- If Wormtail was a 
rat, he 
> obviously couldn't carry a wand either, so how do either of them 
have wands 
> to kill Frank and Bertha? (assuming that they were the first two 
killed 
> after Lily and James)  Im presuming that someone else was at the 
house that 
> night and picked up the remainder of voldies stuff.... Probably a 
character 
> yet to be introduced.
> 
> -Rachel

So what does Professor McGonagall do every time she transfigures, put 
her wand down?  When these people transform from animals to their 
real selves they are always fully clothed.  QED, they could easily 
have their wands safely in their pockets!
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 21:01:17 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:01:17 -0000
Subject: Did Harry Apparate?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010328124842.00b96440@mira-sjcd-1.cisco.com>
Message-ID: <99tjet+n44s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15430

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Katie Kearns <katie at v...> wrote:
> At 03:46 PM 3/28/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >    I
> >always thought that the powers that show up uncontrolled, before 
training
> >would be the ones that were easyest to learn for the young witch 
or wizard.
> >But Harry seems to be better at Defence against the Dark Arts 
rather that
> >Transfiguration.
> >
> >-Rachel
> 
> Well, he showed talent for DADA first -- he did that when he was 
1. ;)
> 
> -Katie

And poor Neville hasn't shown a talent for bouncing or anything 
except Herbology since, has he?
Catherine




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 28 21:11:57 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:11:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's wand
References: <99tial+c5hc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01c601c0b7cb$baacba20$2a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15431

Hello fellow Potter-holics-

I hope this hasn't been addressed before: Does anyone have a theory
about how Voldemort got his wand back at the end of GoF? OK, yes, he
received it from Wormtail, but how did Wormtail get a hold of it?
Voldie used the wand to kill James and Lily, then was struck down by
his own curse deflected off Harry. At that point, Voldie (by his own
admission, in the GoF scene where he described all this to Harry and
the DeathEaters) was bodiless, not a ghost, but not alive either. He
obviously couldn't have picked up the wand. So that means the wand is
lying there in the ruin of the Potter home? (And, by the way, what
happened to Voldie's body?? James' and Lily's bodies were there in
the ruins, right?? No mention of another body....)

So, any theories about how the wand went from the Potter home, to
being in Wormtail's possession? Does it really seem likely that
Wormtail had the presence of mind to head over to the Potter home
upon learning of Voldie's defeat, and pick up the wand? That seems
unlikely to me. But if not him, then who? And how did he/she know to go
find the wand?


Thanks!

-Ed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Who would know better as to where to go to retrieve the wand than Pettigrew,
the Secret Keeper?

If he did, indeed, retrieve Voldie's wand, could that explain what happened
when he met up with Sirius Black? Could he have used Voldie's wand to try to
kill Black, and being not his own wand, it misfired and killed the Muggles?
Oh, wouldn't that be a neat idea, except for that dratted wand order
thingy....

Okay, how about Pettigrew got Voldie's wand, with thoughts of it making him
more powerful than Voldie? Voldie doesn't even have a body ... now he
doesn't have a wand either ... but ... how does a rat, even an Animagi rat
... keep a wand? What did he do with the wand while he was the Weasley
family's pet rat?

I would like to know how everyone "knows" what happened at the Potter house.
There lie James & Lily Potter, dead. There lies baby Harry, alive and with a
new scar on his forehead. There lies Voldemort, James, and Lily's wands. No
sign of Voldemort, though. Why would he leave his wand behind?

How did they come to the FIRST conclusion that what "happened" did happen?
Who was the first person on the scene right after it happened?

Doreen, going back to the books to see if she can find anything that answers
this.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Mar 28 21:13:53 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:13:53 -0000
Subject: I Enjoy Being a Git (Filk)
Message-ID: <99tk6h+vjk5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15432

I Enjoy Being a Git
a Snape filk by Pippin to the tune of "I Enjoy Being a Girl" 
Dedicated to Amanda

SNAPE
I'm a git and by me that's only great! 
I am proud that my  gaze is quite perturbing
That I walk with a silent gliding gait
With my eyes on the watch for what's disturbing
Rule breakers are my favorite quarry
When Filch comes to fetch me at my place
Out we  go after Ron or Herm or Harry
Like a Granian who is ready for the race.

RON, HERMIONE and HARRY
Oh he's got a greasy hairdo
And his eyes are a lightless pit
And he moves like the bats in air do
He enjoys being a git

You can't say he's cute or funny
He scares all of us (just  a bit)
And his manner is hardly sunny
He enjoys being a git

He flips when he finds us after hours
He drools when ol' Sirius escapes
He prowls round the corridors and towers
With a pound and a half of grease upon his face.

Oh he could bamboozle Voldie
And convince him he was for sale
He gave our side much information
That's why Snape isn't in jail

He's hoping our  OWL degrees fail
But to our strategy  he's key
So we're stuck with that slimy greasepail
Who enjoys being a spy  being a git like he





From sabrina_myst at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 21:18:35 2001
From: sabrina_myst at yahoo.co.uk (sabrina_myst at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:18:35 -0000
Subject: Heir of Gryffindor? (rant enclosed)
Message-ID: <99tkfb+s73l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15433

All right.  I'm a newbie here, so please don't murder me if this has 
been over-discussed in the past... anyway.  Although I don't know you 
guys' opinions on this, it seems that a majority of FanFiction.net 
believes that Harry, through James, is a descendant of Godric 
Gryffindor - probably popularised by DD&DS.  Further extrapolation 
leads to the conclusion that this is the reason Voldemort wanted to 
kill James and Harry, but not Lily.  Now, I know this is a perfectly 
logical theory and all - but I, personally, hate it!  Following are 
my reasons for rejecting this theory: (Uh-oh... this is beginning to 
sound like one of those stupid grammar school essays... "I think this 
because"... *g*)

My first and foremost reason that this school of thought is going to 
be sadly disappointed in future books is, simply, it's not JK's 
style.  Moan and groan all you like - if 95% of online HP fans 
believe it, it probably won't make a very good plot twist, and JK 
hinted through Dumbledore in PS/SS that the reason Voldemort was 
after Harry is going to be a major twist.  Furthermore, if you look 
at all the plot twists in the books so far, you'll find that they 
would have been completely impossible to figure out before the book 
came out, because they concerned new characters and/or events that 
were impossible to figure out from the old books.  So, I'm guessing 
that if we have enough information to formulate it into a theory, 
it's not a very likely theory.  Sad but true.

Reason No. 2 concerns the sheer impossibility of it.  How on earth 
can someone like Voldemort try to wipe out all the Gryffindor blood 
on the planet?  It's easy for him to declare himself the Heir of 
Slytherin - even though we basically have only his word for that, 
it's perfectly plausible - but there are also probably thousands of 
Heirs of Slytherin who just haven't bothered to trace back their 
ancestry, and of course the same would go for Gryffindor.  I can 
trace back to one of my ancestors in the circa-Founder period, and I 
also have a thirty-page album filled with nothing but the names, 
birth and death dates, and children of that person's descendants.  So 
it would be pretty mad to try and track down and wipe out all 
Gryffindor blood, or even go after someone because of it, because by 
the time a thousand years have passed it's plausible that even some 
of the Death Eaters have Gryffindor blood.  Now, Voldemort may be an 
insane sociopath, but he's not stupid, or at least not as stupid as 
many would think.  He would probably know the sheer insanity of this.

Okay, my fingers are a bit sore from typing, and I really ought to 
start on my homework, so I'll leave off here.  It would be typically 
stupid of me if it turned out that none of you believe this theory 
and I'm essentially preaching to the converted, but I kind of needed 
to say all this, and I'd get weird net-looks if I were to post 
something like this with reasonable spelling and acutal thought on 
one of the many HP "discussion" boards I visit.  Au revoir, mes 
amis.  It's off to the land of French homework I go.




From bbennett at joymail.com  Wed Mar 28 21:20:26 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:20:26 -0000
Subject: amazon.com  HP store tagline?
In-Reply-To: <3AC24BB1.95D627E3@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <99tkiq+iqg2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15434

> heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
> 
> > "Author J.K. Rowling brought to life a world of magic, mystery, 
and mayhem when she introduced Harry Potter to millions of readers. 
Now kids can have more adventures with Harry and his friends. Muggles,
mudbloods, and wizards alike are bound to be entertained by these
games and puzzles."
> >
> > Look at the last sentence. Do you get the feeling that whoever 
wrote that may've read GoF, but never read CoS? In GoF, the 
whole "horribleness" of that word is alluded to but if you hadn't
read CoS, you might not realize just HOW horrible it is.

Heidi, I agree with your assessment, and I don't think an email to 
Amazon would be silly at all. In the context of the books, this is 
very insulting. If you want, I'd be glad to send a second email to 
them.

B





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 21:33:18 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:33:18 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Comments on Various Shipping Posts
In-Reply-To: <3AC24F64.23EF3700@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99tlau+oei0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15435

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 

> HERMIONE SPENDING TIME WITH BOTH BOYS DURING THE "FIGHT": Other than
> that one sentence that indicates she tried to mediate the dispute, 
what
> other evidence is there that she spent much time with Ron?  If she 
*did*
> spend time with Ron, I don't know *when* she did this since she's
> described as being with Harry all the time.
> 

Sorry Penny, I still dispute this.  There is more than one instance 
when Hermione mentions trying to mediate between the boys and makes 
it clear that she has spoken to Ron.  And she isn't described as 
being with Harry all the time.  I've just reread the whole of that 
section and there are numerous times when she isn't with Harry - it's 
just that this gets clouded by the help she is giving him with the 
first task, and that he needs someone to talk to re. the Sirius 
situation.  

Also, as I've mentioned before, Harry is the one who is very much on 
his own during this time.  Ron has Dean and Seamus, and his brothers 
to spend time with, leaving Harry isolated.  I know there is no 
reason for the others to give him a wide berth, but it could simply 
be a case of family loyalty, the fact that Ron got there first, and 
importantly, that Harry has the first task to think about.  Hermione 
knows what it is like to be cold shouldered by her best friends (see 
PoA) and, in her own sensitive way, is trying to stop Harry having to 
go through that to the same extent.
Catherine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Wed Mar 28 21:39:39 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:39:39 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg the Squib? (was Mrs. Figg as babysitter)
References: <99t6nc+83t7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01f201c0b7cf$be8e8b60$2a14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15436

"Bugg" <bugganeer at y...> wrote:
Thanks for all your thoughts on why Mrs Figg is a witch.  I think we
just don't know enough yet to make a firmish judgement here.

I guess I've always asumed she is a squib because I can't imagine
Dumbledore asking a witch to 'live as a muggle' for so long, and if
her job is just to feed the cats and send an occasional owl to
Dumbledore then a squib could easily do it.

I agree she may or may not have actually broken her leg, but if she
did and someone saw her, she could still get it fixed magically -
explain that the hospital/x-rays had said it wasn't broken - feign a
limp for a few days and most people would just assume she'd been lucky
(muggles don't notice nuffink).

I don't think being part of the 'old gang' means she MUST be a witch.
In the fight against V. a squib could easily have a useful role and
perhaps draw less attention to themselves. As there's no useful
defence against AK magical ability isn't all that important here.
<snip>

What about Mrs. Figg being an animagi as Mrs. Norris? It says that Filch is
at the school during the summer, but maybe that is just to throw us off of
that track. (ok so I am stuck on the Mrs. Figg>>>cat theory) Could we be
underestimating Filch, btw? Perhaps he is in on more than just looking for
trouble makers. This could be an excuse to watch over Harry.

Doreen, who will be bored with any book from now on that doesn't come in
sets of 7





From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 28 21:52:41 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 13:52:41 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semicolon debate
In-Reply-To: <99t12e+n5vb@eGroups.com>
References: <99ssii+v91c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010328134947.031224f0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15437

At 03:47 PM 3/28/01 +0000, Kimberly wrote:
>Why *does* Hermione hate Fleur so much?  She generally gives people
>the benefit of the doubt.  Even Snape, before there was any indication
>that he was anything but horrible.

I think Hermione starts out with the idea that teachers can do
no wrong.

>But with Fleur she just seems to
>detest her from the very beginning.  I don't think she's ever done
>that with anyone else.  So is it only jealousy, or is there something
>else?

Thinking about how *I* felt about the hunks and jocks (i.e. the
"male veela") in High School, Hermione probably resents the fact
that Fleur can make guys fall over her without lifting a finger.



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 28 21:59:17 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 13:59:17 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did Harry Apparate?
In-Reply-To: <99tfi4+8ktb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010328135540.02ef8c90@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15438

At 07:54 PM 3/28/01 +0000, aprilgc at ivillage.com wrote:
>According to QTA, though, wizards can't just "fly" so now I'm revising
>my assumption.  Did Harry apparate to the top of the chimney?

"No wizard can fly" seems to me a statement that is too suspiciously
sweeping, like, "No werewolf is good."  I can't believe Harry apparated.
It seems too difficult to do spontaniously by an under-age wizard.
Besides, we know that "flying comes naturally" to Harry.



                                                 -- Dave




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Mar 28 21:50:56 2001
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:50:56 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Comments on Various Shipping Posts
In-Reply-To: <99tlau+oei0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tmc0+qm8e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15439

For what I am about to say, SugarQuillIslanders, I know you'll ban me 
for life...
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., catherine at c... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> 
> wrote:
> > Hi --
> > 
> 
> > HERMIONE SPENDING TIME WITH BOTH BOYS DURING THE "FIGHT": Other 
than
> > that one sentence that indicates she tried to mediate the 
dispute, 
> what
> > other evidence is there that she spent much time with Ron?  If 
she 
> *did*
> > spend time with Ron, I don't know *when* she did this since she's
> > described as being with Harry all the time.
> > 
> 
> Sorry Penny, I still dispute this.  There is more than one instance 
> when Hermione mentions trying to mediate between the boys and makes 
> it clear that she has spoken to Ron.  
Yes, she did speak to him. Penny said so. Canon says so. Don't take 
Penny's use of the phrase "all the time" so rigidly - she *clearly* 
meant all the time other than during her attempts to mediate the 
dispute (which was the first sentence you quoted).

> And she isn't described as 
> being with Harry all the time.  I've just reread the whole of that 
> section and there are numerous times when she isn't with Harry - 
it's 
> just that this gets clouded by the help she is giving him with the 
> first task, and that he needs someone to talk to re. the Sirius 
> situation.  
Of *course* she's not really with Harry *all the time*. She goes to 
Ancient Runes and Arithmancy classes without him. She goes to sleep 
without him (for now!) and probably goes into the girl's bathroom 
without him. But she isn't described as sitting in the Great Hall 
with Ron, going for walks with Ron or hanging out in the common room 
nightly with Ron.

(She's obviously with Draco :) 
Ok, those of you who haven't read Surfeit of Kisses won't get it, and 
if you're R/H, you probaby are avoiding it and me like 
the "toadstools" we are (someone used that word to describe my Draco 
but meant it in a nice way) because I think that all the R/Hers, 
other than Yael, have never read it, which is fine with me. 
 
> Also, as I've mentioned before, Harry is the one who is very much 
on 
> his own during this time.  Ron has Dean and Seamus, and his 
brothers 
> to spend time with, leaving Harry isolated.  I know there is no 
> reason for the others to give him a wide berth, but it could simply 
> be a case of family loyalty, the fact that Ron got there first, and 
> importantly, that Harry has the first task to think about.  
Family loyalty wouldn't explain Dean & Seamus, and I don't understand 
what you mean by "ron got their first" - can you elaborate?

> Hermione 
> knows what it is like to be cold shouldered by her best friends 
(see 
> PoA) and, in her own sensitive way, is trying to stop Harry having 
to 
> go through that to the same extent.
On this, I do agree.

But I do have a question - and I apologize, but I am doing this 
without canon in hand - if Hermione spent November hanging out with 
Ron a lot, and he *still* didn't ask her to the ball, why on earth 
would she want to go with him? Now, I recognize that this negates the 
whole She & Harry Like Each Other argument, which, btw, I am not now, 
and never have been making - I think Harry/Hermione is a 7th book 
and/or beyond SHIP, but for those of  you who think that ROn is *now* 
interested in Hermione, why on earth would SHE like him after he has 
made it perfectly clear to her that he has no interest in going to 
the Yule Ball with her, except as a last resort? In my own high 
school days (and believe me, I wasn't dating a new boy every weekend, 
at least not until college :) if a boy treated me like that, my crush 
would disolve in eight seconds. 


> Catherine
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From eccleston at clara.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 21:50:52 2001
From: eccleston at clara.co.uk (eccleston at clara.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:50:52 -0000
Subject: SHIP OBHWF (aka One Big Happy Weasley Family)
In-Reply-To: <99tfb9+n3he@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tmbs+rn8e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15440

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> > As far as how wizards get wed goes, I've never seen anything in 
any HP 
> book to suggest they don't get married just like us. For all we 
know, 
> there's a chapel at Hogwarts and churches in Hogsmeade. They have 
> Christmas and Easter, after all.


My recollection is that Harry gets to see wizard photo's of his 
parents wedding in PoA - it's where he sees a picture of Sirius.

Steve Eccleston




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Wed Mar 28 21:59:50 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:59:50 -0000
Subject: accidental use of magic (was Re: Did Harry Apparate?)
In-Reply-To: <F138JagXTi8M19VMczi00002c42@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <99tmsm+arlb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15441

<snip>  Speaking of which, what about how harry turned his teachers wig 
blue? <snip>
> -Rachel

Another question - can we assume that the department of magical mishaps 
(not the correct name, but I like it <g>) has been running around 
cleaning up (memories) after all these incidents?  Does Harry's teacher 
(and anyone who saw/talked to her remember this only long enough to 
write the note (same goes for the headmistress in the chimney 
incident)?  Do the department people modify their memories shortly 
after?  What would happen if the Durselys responded to her letter after 
her memory had been modified (assuming it was)?

Along that line, do they round up everyone who was in the reptile house 
and Piers and family, and modify them?
a.
if covered, please point me to the thread.





From bohners at pobox.com  Wed Mar 28 22:10:06 2001
From: bohners at pobox.com (Horst or Rebecca J. Bohner)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:10:06 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
References: <99t9tu+mga2@eGroups.com> <005501c0b7c3$462e0260$b344d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <01b601c0b7d4$17694aa0$988f23cf@rebeccab>

No: HPFGUIDX 15442

Carole Estes (echoing Heidi and Cassie) wrote:

> Harry doesn't need Ginny to be a part of the
> Weasley family.

Quite so, but unless I'm much mistaken, nobody is saying that he does need
her for that purpose.

The idea behind OBHWF isn't that Harry *has* to marry into the Weasleys to
be totally accepted and loved by them, because it's evident that he already
is accepted.  Molly's just as fiercely protective of Harry, and as generous
to him, as one of her own.  (Indeed more so, if you count the way her
hand-knitted sweaters for Harry always suit his colouring, in marked
contrast to Ron's).  Harry's got no need to date Ginny to get closer to her
family -- he'd have nothing to gain by it.  No, the idea of OBHWF is just
that since that closeness is already there, wouldn't it be nice to see it
all the more confirmed and cemented by an H/G romance?  Molly would be over
the moon about it, and Fred & George would have a field day with teasing and
jokes.

Personally, I believe in H/G (which is not the same as wishful thinking,
because I really don't care if it doesn't happen) because it makes good
sense to me.  The way I see it, by making Harry so close to the Weasleys in
general and by giving Ginny's infatuation with Harry a central role in CoS,
JKR may very well be setting the stage for an eventual, mature relationship
between H & G.  People who get to know each other in a relaxed, family
atmosphere, and started out as friends rather than lovers, have a better
chance at lasting love than those who have only ever seen each other in a
romantic context and who still have illusions about each other's true
personality.  (It's the difference between Anne/Roy and Anne/Gilbert, for
those Lucy Maud Montgomery fans out there.)  If Ginny gets over her
starry-eyed infatuation with Harry -- which I think she will -- and if Harry
stops looking for Miss Gorgeous, they might eventually make a very good
match.

I am not saying Ginny is the only one for Harry, or even that she would
necessarily be a good choice for Harry.  We frankly don't know enough about
Ginny yet to make a judgment on that point.  But I do think it is likely,
given all the information we've been given about the Weasleys in general and
Ginny in particular, that at some point in the next three books she will
become a more prominent character.  Not as prominent as Hermione, of
course -- there's no room, and no need, for a fourth in the Famous Three.
But I don't think that JKR put her in the books *just* to be the victim in
CoS, and I won't be a bit surprised if she turns out to be The One For Harry
after all.
--
Rebecca J. Bohner
rebeccaj at pobox.com
http://home.golden.net/~rebeccaj




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 22:11:39 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:11:39 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <99tfi0+mbg4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tnir+orga@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15443

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:

> And as for Ginny, I'm in complete 
> agreement. She needs to be more grown-up and more developed as a 
> character before she can be considered as a romantic partner for 
> Harry. 

Definitely.  I'm not advocating immediate relationship development, 
just hoping for the eventual.

> As to the argument that she will be able to smother Harry 
with 
> the pure, unconditional healing balm of her love....YUCK. <g> 
Harry's 
> a lovely little boy, and he's been through some of the worst things 
> life can throw at anyone, and I'm the last person to deny him love, 
> but "She will always be there for him, a healing balm, a safe 
harbor; 
> and Harry will be good for her because he won't take her for 
> granted" --- is mildly terrifying, especially following on the heels 
> of the recent discussions of the lack of strong female characters in 
> HP. The scenario makes it sound like Ginny will remain the boring 
> wimp she is in canon (and she is a boring wimp in canon, Molly 
> Weasley's daughter or not), and sit around at home with a pile of 
> enchanted bandages, waiting for Harry to come home from fighting the 
> Dark Lord so that she can patch up his wounds and tell him how very 
> very brave and heroic he is and how he's so very clever and she'll 
> always love him no matter what stupid things he does...*shudders* 
> Also I don't see where we're getting that Harry wouldn't take her 
for 
> granted. Why not, if she's just going to sit around being a safe 
> harbor and a healing balm and basically acting like his mother?  

Ok, I get that the language used was rather... picturesque <g>, but I 
don't see why a woman can't be nurturing to a man and still be strong, 
and still be equal.  Ginny has demonstrated no tendency to treat Harry 
like his mother.  I don't see the sin in being supportive of someone 
you love.  It doesn't mean you do nothing else, and it doesn't mean 
you don't have your own issues and struggles and adventures and 
ambitions, it just means you *also* nurture and support the person you 
care for, and I think it's an important aspect of any relationship.  I 
hope we all get to spend some time around such boring wimps in our 
lifetimes.  In fact, I aspire to be just that kind of boring wimp for 
someone someday (well, maybe not in so many words - being a balm 
sounds messy!).  And I don't have any intention of sacrificing my 
integrity, my interests or my dreams to do so.

Now, I think it can be argued that Ginny might not actually be that 
kind of person, as we don't know her well enough yet to be sure of 
such things, but to fault her for being that way if she is is rather 
harsh.  

Oh!  And for the record I don't think Ginny's a boring wimp in canon, 
your factual-looking statement above notwithstanding <bg> - there's an 
outside possibility that there are others who might agree with me, I'm 
guessing.

> 
> I think a lot of my support for H/H comes from the fact that I don't 
> think that what Harry needs is to be smothered in blind, 
> unconditional love from his romantic partner; I think he needs an 
> equal. 

Again, I can't know what kind of love Ginny can offer, but I don't 
think unconditional love is something to be scorned, and I don't think 
offering it prevents someone from being an equal. 

The kind of love he's missing in his life is parental love. 
He 
> can get that from Sirius, and from Molly and Arthur Weasley, who I 
do 
> believe care for him very much. It is a very bad idea for Harry to 
be 
> getting the unconditional "parental" love he's missing in his life 
> from his romantic partner. He needs someone strong for that; someone 
> who will tell him when he's doing something stupid and dangerous, 
> which he often does, someone who can help him, assist him, and be an 
> equal partner to him. Just as Harry has chosen for best friends two 
> people who are brave, strong and intelligent, so I believe that he 
> would want the same thing in a romantic partner. 

I'm shaking with shock at the idea that unconditional love is weak.  
It's the strongest kind of love there is.  It's the kind of love that 
allows a person to lay down his or her life, it's the kind of love 
that allows a person to move mountains.  It's anything but weak, and 
it's what I aspire to above all else, although so far I suck at it.  
Whether Ginny can manage it or not I don't know, but if she does, then 
Harry (or whoever she ends up with) will be one lucky person, and 
they'll sure hear about it if they're doing something stupid or 
dangerous.
 
> I'm not saying Ginny isn't brave or strong or intelligent, just that 
> we've *never* seen it in the books if she is. IMHO, we'd need to see 
> this in canon before an H/G matchup would be believable. 

This I agree with, and I'm as anxious as anyone to see it.  I doubt 
you'll get too much dissention from H/Gers that we need to see what 
Ginny's really all about.  It's just we're *hoping* for the good, 
strong, corageous Ginny we think we are going to find.  

Even Fleur 
> has had more character development than Ginny, and I'd rather see 
her 
> with Harry, because at least she has a personality. I don't think 
> this has anything much to do with being an H/H shipper either; many 
> of the book reviews of the HP series I've read have noted Ginny's 
> extremely shadowy, vacant characterization. I'm *perfectly* happy 
for 
> Harry to end up with someone other than Hermione as long as that 
> person is a strong, intelligent female character (or a male 
> character. I'm not picky. I'd rather see him with Ron than Ginny; at 
> least Ron would be an equal partner). And Ginny just 
> isn't yet. We can extrapolate from the fact that Molly is a strong 
> woman to say that Ginny might grow up to be one as well, but IMHO 
> that's a poor substitute for actual character development.

Patience is all I can suggest for that.  Please don't rule out the 
possibility that she can be a fully developped character just because 
she isn't yet.  We're only halfway through!

> 
> I quite agree that the loving, close-knit Weasleys are a blessing in 
> Harry's life. I just don't agree that he has to marry or date or be 
> interested in Ginny to be a part of that family. One of the things I 
> love about the Weasleys is how they have opened their home to Harry. 
> I honestly believe that Mrs. Weasley truly loves Harry as if he were 
> a child of her own, and that he doesn't need the crowbar of a 
> relationship with Ginny to shoehorn him into the bosom of the 
Weasley 
> family; he's already there.

I agree with this as well.  He doesn't have to, I just want him to 
anyway! :D

kimberly




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 28 22:28:24 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:28:24 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs Figg the Squib? (was Mrs. Figg as babysitter)
In-Reply-To: <01f201c0b7cf$be8e8b60$2a14a3d1@doreen>
References: <99t6nc+83t7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010328142057.02ef74e0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15444

At 03:39 PM 3/28/01 -0600, Doreen wrote:
>What about Mrs. Figg being an animagi as Mrs. Norris?

As usual in the animagus speculations, we're back to the annoying
question, "Why isn't she listed as registered?"  Unless Hermione
doesn't know about Harry's "Mrs. Figg", and so didn't make any
kind of connection when she saw her name.  Or maybe she's not
listed so that the Death Eaters don't know the truth about her.

>It says that Filch is
>at the school during the summer, but maybe that is just to throw us off of
>that track. (ok so I am stuck on the Mrs. Figg>>>cat theory) Could we be
>underestimating Filch, btw? Perhaps he is in on more than just looking for
>trouble makers. This could be an excuse to watch over Harry.

I'm still laying my money on Filch as the one who "shows unexpected
magic late in life".

>Doreen, who will be bored with any book from now on that doesn't come in
>sets of 7

The Complete Works of Jane Austen comes in 7 volumes (6 Novels + a
volume of "Minor Works"); and the original Baum Oz books are 14 (2 x 7).  :)



                                                 -- Dave




From Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 22:34:35 2001
From: Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com (Slytherin_Daughter at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:34:35 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Random Repiles
Message-ID: <99totr+cs5u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15445

Too....many...posts...can't...keep...up....


Cassandra:
 <<(And JKR did say everyone would fall for the wrong people in Book 
4. *cough* Ron *cough*).>>

 You know, I don't think I have previously heard the notion that who 
Ron fell for would fall under the "wrong person" thing. Considering 
that we don't really know that he fell for Hermione (well, it's all 
subtext. They never kiss or anything), I don't that is really 
tangible evidance against R/H happening in the future.

<<I'm less an H/H er than simply an anti R/H er. It makes me yuk. 
Since I know Draco/Hermione is wildly unlikely in canon, I'd rather 
they all found non-Trio people to date.>>

 Oh, that's tact for you. <g> The anti-R/H aside, I agree with you. I 
think that they are great friends, but romance could affect that in a 
weird way.

> 
Emily: Ah. Took the words right out of my mouth. I think that 
Hermione 
> probably feels a little awkward around Viktor - he's eighteen, he's 
> smitten with her, she doesn't really know him...snip... I think 
that Hermione was feeling trapped (snip).  

Cassandra: <<Well, I don't think even the most vehement R/H er would 
argue that 
Hermione doesn't love Harry at least as a *friend.* IMHO, she was 
busy cheering for Harry and ignoring Viktor because she was really 
happy for Harry and really invested in his victory. She really, 
really cares about Harry. She wore herself nearly to death trying to 
help him prepare for the First Task, and practically gouged her face 
off with fear during it in case anything happened to him. Perhaps it 
had something to do with feeling trapped (I doubt it) but my reading 
of that scene was that she was sincerely distracted clapping for and 
cheering for Harry, and while that might have significance 
romantically, it's also the act of a loyal best friend which is what 
Hermione first and foremost is, and you don't have to be any kind of 
shipper to feel that. I think the "feeling trapped" reading sells her 
 bit short.>>

 *blinks twice* I went on to say "and let's not 
forget that no matter how hot to trot she is with anyone, Harry is 
one of her best friends, and she probably wants him to win more than 
her random Bulgarian Lover..."


Me:....and this is just pointing out, once again, that the books are 
> from Harry's point of view and so therefore we don't know what 
> exactly Ron and Hermione are doing when he isn't around. *snerk* I 
> like what that implies. <g>

Cassandra: <<What you mean they've been snogging passionately behind 
the scenes 
all this time and Ron STILL didn't ask her to the Ball or notice her 
teeth? Lord, he's even more of a gormless cad than I thought. <vbeg>>>

  Sigh. No, I don't mean they are snogging when he isn't around. I 
mean that there is a distinct possibility that they hang out when he 
isn't there. Doesn't that make sense?

Paula:
<<As for the H/G Ship, we do live on hope, but I totally see it being 
fulfilled one day.  I just don't see it as a coincidence that Ginny 
and Lily's haircolor is red, something's gotta be hidden in that>>

 Eh, but Tom Riddle's hair is black, and so is Harry's. Does that 
mean anything? Hagrid has black hair, too. So does Snape. I don't 
think it's a big conspiracy and they're all related or something. 

>
> Ginny is Molly Weasley's daughter, and she comes from a close-knit
> loving family. She's not going to be a wimp -- Molly sure isn't -- 
and
> nobody's doormat, but she will love Harry with the kind of devotion
> and passion that the quiet girls develop. (Note to younger male
> members of this group: remember that.) She will always be there for
> him, a healing balm, a safe harbor; and Harry will be good for her
> because he won't take her for granted.

 Carole: <<What exactly do you mean by "quiet girls"?  Not trying to 
sound offended (I'm not) but extremely curious. To characterize 
"quiet girls" as being ones that will "always be there for him, a 
healing balm, a safe harbor"  is a bit of an overgeneralization, 
don't you think?  Quiet women are not always passive and passive 
women are not always quiet.>>

::grin:: That's going to be one of those debate quotes no one ever 
forgets. I sort of agree with both sides. Ginny had better have some 
better traits than obedience and loyalty if she's going be Harry's 
wife. Otherwise, what's the point? Lap dog, anyone?


Emily




From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 22:43:58 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:43:58 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary
In-Reply-To: <3ABEBBE5.4EADA3B6@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99tpfe+6m99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15446

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:

> 
> 8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?

I'm not sure about this. At first I thought he could not return to 
the DEs as he would be killed (and we don't want that :)). Then I 
thought it was a possibility as he could probably manage to smart- 
talk his way out of death and get away with the Cruciatus curse. I 
still don't know and am kind of sitting on a leaning fence at the 
moment.

But...what I want to ask is *when* does Snape do whatever it is 
Dumbledore asks him to do? 
I thought at first that Snape left to go on his 'mission' at the end 
of Ch. 36 and would not return until Book 5. However, after 
rereading, I realised that he is at the end of term feast (sorry, 
can't remember how long after Ch 36 this is ~ months, weeks, days?).  
Presumably he has already done part of whatever he had to do or he 
wouldn't have looked so pale when Dumbledore first mentioned it. So 
if he is returning to the DE circle (which is the way I am leaning at 
the moment) he may have made contact with one or two DEs straight 
away and be waiting to meet others during the summer holidays.

I'm also not sure whether the DEs know about Snape being a spy. I get 
the impression it is a highly secret society. Wouldn't Lucius Malfoy 
have done/said something by now? Though perhaps he wouldn't as he 
didn't know V was returning to power until GoF. But this still gave 
him a whole book to do something i.e. tell V, blackmail Snape, 
something along those lines. Maybe.

I like the theory posted that Snape is the coward and Karkaroff is 
the deserter. If V believes this, it may make Snape's task easier. 

And I stand corrected, Snape does not have beady eyes. I think I was 
trying to adapt facts for my theories again. However, I plan to cling 
to this wobbly little branch for dear life, even when the tree 
crashes down! I will be busy, clinging to a wobbly branch and 
perching on a leaning fence! ::grins ~ I would wave, but  I fear I 
will lose my balance::

Sarah
  




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Wed Mar 28 22:58:03 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:58:03 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <99tnir+orga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tq9r+ea4b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15447

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:

Kimberly: Definitely.  I'm not advocating immediate relationship 
development,  just hoping for the eventual.

Right. I was just stating what I thought needed to happen for an H/G 
relationship to be realistic.
> 
> 
Kimberly: Ok, I get that the language used was rather... picturesque 
<g>, but I  don't see why a woman can't be nurturing to a man and 
still be strong,   and still be equal.

I never said that a woman couldn't be nurturing and still be equal. 
What I said 
was that if that was all she was and all she did, that would bother 
me. I was simply somewhat put off (and was trying, like Carole, not 
to be offended) by the idea of quiet, devoted little Ginny in the 
corner offering Harry unconditional love with no mention of any 
character development or life outside Harry for Ginny whatsoever. 
Note that there was and has been no mention of Harry offering Ginny 
unconditional love back. If Ginny is to be a nurturing character who 
is also strong and equal, FINE. We need to see some of that strength 
and that equality. That's all.

Kimberly: Ginny has demonstrated no tendency to treat Harry 
> like his mother.  I don't see the sin in being supportive of 
someone  you love.  It doesn't mean you do nothing else, and it 
doesn't mean  you don't have your own issues and struggles and 
adventures and  ambitions, it just means you *also* nurture and 
support the person you  care for, and I think it's an important 
aspect of any relationship."

Granted, but we are not talking about people and relationships in 
general, or anyone's personal experience, we are talking about Harry 
and Ginny specifically. My arguement is not that there is anything 
wrong with being supportive of someone you love. (Considering I'm an 
H/H shipper, and Hermione is extraordinarily supportive of Harry, 
there's no way I would argue that.) It's all very well to have your 
own issues and struggles and adventures and ambitions, but it just 
supports my point that if Ginny has these adventures and ambitions 
and issues, we don't know about them because she *has not been 
adequately developed as a character.* Try not to look at it as a 
personal thing and purely in literary terms: Harry is our 
protagonist, arguably the most developed character in the books. It 
makes logical sense to me that if he is to be intimately paired with 
someone else, that person should be a well-developed character as 
well, otherwise we as readers will find it jarring.

Kimberly: I hope we all get to spend some time around such boring 
wimps in our lifetimes.  In fact, I aspire to be just that kind of 
boring wimp for  someone someday (well, maybe not in so many words - 
being a balm sounds messy!).  And I don't have any intention of 
sacrificing my integrity, my interests or my dreams to do so.

I guess I really just don't aspire to being a boring wimp. I kind of 
don't think Ginny does either. I bet she'd really like some character 
development where she got to be brave, or do something interesting, 
or maybe got to tell the Great Harry Potter where to get off, just 
once. Wouldn't that be satisfying? Wouldn't it be nice to see? I 
guess I just can't help preferring a strong female character over a 
dull wimpy one whose "integrity, interests and dreams" are so far 
pure conjecture on the reader's part.

Kimberly: I'm shaking with shock at the idea that unconditional love 
is weak. It's the strongest kind of love there is.  It's the kind of 
love that  allows a person to lay down his or her life, it's the kind 
of love   that allows a person to move mountains.  It's anything but 
weak"

I don't recall ever having said that unconditional love is weak. What 
I said is that Ginny is weak as a character, not even so much 
personally as in terms of how she's been developed. Which is not 
much. I also said that I object to the theory that Harry's romantic 
partner should offer him the kind of love he's been missing all his 
life, because the kind of love he's been missing is parental love, 
and that is a different kind of love than the love a romantic partner 
can give you. Not worse, not better, but different. This is not a 
slam against Ginny's feelings for Harry, because frankly her feelings 
for Harry at the current moment are somewhere between adolescent 
crush and nothing much. I do not believe that Ginny is not an 
appropriate partner for Harry because she's offering him weak love or 
something (and I'm weirded out to have my statements interpreted that 
way) I think she is not an appropriate partner for him at the moment 
because they are unequally developed characters. I have repeatedly 
said that I would be happy to see H/G if JKR develops Ginny's 
character more and takes her in a stronger direction.


Kimberly: This I agree with, and I'm as anxious as anyone to see it.  
I doubt  you'll get too much dissention from H/Gers that we need to 
see what   Ginny's really all about.  It's just we're *hoping* for 
the good, strong, corageous Ginny we think we are going to find.  

Frankly, so am I. Complaining about the lack of her character 
development does not mean I don't ever want to see any. 

Cassandra




From bbennett at joymail.com  Wed Mar 28 23:01:12 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:01:12 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Comments on Various Shipping Posts
In-Reply-To: <3AC24F64.23EF3700@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99tqfo+9a37@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15448

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 

<sigh> I've got a deadline, but just a few points I wanted to make...

> SEMI-COLON DEBATE: Thanks to ship-mate Heidi for making a new &
 insightful point.  We don't know that Hermione wasn't already 
scowling when Harry notices this.  Excellent point!>

I think we're getting confused on the scene we're discussing. Heidi 
did make a good point on the scene where Harry notices that Hermione 
looks furious; she could very well have already been furious and he 
just hadn't noticed yet. The semi-colon scene is different; it reads 
as follows:

"It's very good already," said Ron, in a strangled sort of voice.  
Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled." (GoF, UK ed, p. 628)

If, from Harry's POV, Hermione had been already been scowling when he 
noticed her, it would have read something like "he noticed Hermione 
was scowling". Using past tense of the verb, as well as the semi-
colon indicates that the second part of the sentences relates to 
Fleur smiling at Ron. Exactly what the scowl means is certainly open 
to debate.

<There *are* people out there who read the books through, aren't 
obsessed & haven't read a lick of fanfic & *still* come to the H/H 
conclusion. My sister is one of those types.  I asked her over 
Christmas what her intepretation of the Kiss was.  She shrugged & 
said, "Hermione likes Harry."  I explained the R/H position in 
brief.  She looked at me incredulously and said, "There are *really* 
people who think Ron & Hermione are going to get together?  Pshaw!  
Hermione likes Harry; it's as clear as day.">

I just convinced two friends to read the books (that brings my total 
up to 3 I've hooked this year alone!), and as they finished CoS, PoA, 
and GoF, I asked each if they thought Hermione liked either of the 
boys more than the other. Both said no until they finished GoF, at 
which they both said it was obvious she liked Ron (and I promise I 
didn't lead them). I also explained some of the points H/H'rs make, 
and like you sister, both were incredulous that some people think 
Hermione likes Harry. I love this about Harry Potter. Half the books 
on the bestseller list hit you over the head with the obvious; it's 
rare to come across books as deliciously subtle as these. 

B





From inyron at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 23:12:43 2001
From: inyron at yahoo.com (inyron at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:12:43 -0000
Subject: Did Harry Apparate?
In-Reply-To: <99tfi4+8ktb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tr5b+7tuo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15449

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aprilgc at i... wrote:
> Just read QTA.
> 
> I always assumed in PS/SS chapter 2 (when Harry's thinking about 
the 
> strange things that have happened) that Harry had taken "a magical 
> flying leap" or some such to end up on the roof of the school.  
> According to QTA, though, wizards can't just "fly" so now I'm 
revising 
> my assumption.  Did Harry apparate to the top of the chimney?  If 
so, 
> why?  If he was trying to get behind the big trash cans, why isn't 
that 
> where he apparated to?  Assuming that he did apparate and doesn't 
have 
> some power that other wizards don't have.
> 
> a.


According to the first page of QTA, "Levitation is commonplace, but 
our ancestors were not content with hovering five feet from the 
ground."  I'm guessing Harry just Levitated himself out of the way 
with a little bit of forward momentum to get him onto the roof.  The 
roof would be a little taller than five feet, but since Harry was 
stressing, and the Levitation wasn't for an extended period of time, 
it should have been manageable.  And it wouldn't have been the actual 
flying that wizards had to charm broomsticks to achieve.

inyron






From xlaurenx at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 23:45:34 2001
From: xlaurenx at hotmail.com (Lauren -X)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:45:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: QTA Question
Message-ID: <F166TEkgy8AR9ubo69r000100c2@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15450

> > On page 39 it says that the first Quidditch World Cup was > in 1473 and 
>that they are held every four years. So how can > the QWC in GoF be the 
>422nd one?? >
>
>It was annual up into the 20th century and then they changed it to once 
>every four years?

It would only work out if it was annual until 1861 and every four years 
after that, that would make it the 422nd one in 1995 the time GoF was took 
place.
;)

~Lauren

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Mar 28 23:59:56 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:59:56 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does anyone else have a problem with the amazon.com HPstore tagline?
References: <99t96e+k4sj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC27AFC.B8B2335B@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15451

Hi --

Maybe I'm being an idiot, but I can't find this on the amazon site.  I
was planning to email Amazon about it, but I'd like to see where it is
first.  I've gone to the HP store.

I definitely think it should be changed -- they should be alerted to
this.  Maybe they've already removed it since I can't find it?  <g>

Penny






From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 29 00:09:16 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:09:16 -0000
Subject: SHIP OBHWF (aka One Big Happy Weasley Family)
In-Reply-To: <99tb1l+6fck@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99tufc+mtr3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15452

Darn it, Heidi--I *said* some weeks ago I was not going to 
participate in mainlist shipping debates anymore!  Ah, well... you've 
twisted my arm, so...

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., heidi.h.tandy.c92 at a... wrote:
Ebony & I were talking about this just last night. 
> The Weasley Family seems to be the type of family where, probably 
> under Molly's guide, the "family" expands to include people who 
need to be included. My home, growing up, was much the same. 

Mine was too, Heidi.  Half of the people who I deem "aunt", "uncle", 
or "cousin" are no blood relation.  My mother and grandmother are 
*definitely* matriarchal in nature--they are very strong women with 
mild-mannered, gentle husbands.  They both tend to "envelop" any 
child or person who needs nurturing that we bring around them.  
Friends, enemies (I'm serious), significant others, spouses.  So that 
makes 2 people from Weasley-like families who are not advocating the 
OBHWF ship.

The main problem I have with H/G is its weirdness.  I have no 
brothers, only male cousins who've lived with us, but this is my 
reasoning.  Anyone in our extended family who gets "enveloped in" is 
off limits for romance... it'd be like incest.  Ewwy.

I've actually witnessed the Harry/Ginny thing in real life, but it 
was in reverse.  My favorite aunt's best friend was the "Harry" in 
that situation, being semi-adopted into our family.  I've known her 
all my life... she and my aunt are only 9 years older than me, so 
they were like my big sisters.  I grew up in the house next door to 
my grandmother's, so I was always underfoot.

My aunt's best friend fell head-over-heels for one of our close 
cousins when they were adolescents.  Even as a preschooler 20 years 
ago, I could see this (and embarrassed her a couple of times, I 
think).  Today, this woman is a total package, and she was even as a 
girl--she's one of the prettiest women I know, she's smart and self-
employed, sweet, and has a great sense of humor.  Boys fell all over 
her in middle and high school--in adulthood, men still do.  

But the cousin never looked at her as anything other than a younger 
sister-type.  He dated girl after girl, never really returning her 
interest.

Family legend has it that the reason why my aunt's best friend has 
never married is because she's still carrying that old torch for this 
cousin... who is married with two kids and will never see her as 
anything more than a *sister*.

20+ years of pining.  Do we *really* want something like this for 
Ginny?  Or do we want someone who will appreciate her?  

How many celebrity-fan pairings actually *work*?

Harry's already more at home with the Weasleys than he is with his 
own relatives.  I'm sure this would be the case even if there was no 
such person as Ginny Weasley and Ron was the youngest.

So Harry wouldn't have to marry Ginny, Ron, or anyone else in order 
to be "Uncle Harry" to the next generation of Weasley kids.  He's 
already that.  :-)

 >If Harry was dating Ginny, would Molly be as willing to allow him 
to spend the summer at the Burrow, relatively unsupervised, or would 
she be concerned about those teen hormones? 

I'd think so.  She's conservative... Hermione's sharing a tent/room 
with Ginny in GoF, where some (strange) modern-minded parents would 
have allowed her to crash with her opposite-sex best friends, since 
after all they're just friends. 

> And if nothing happened until they were 17 (we don't know exacly 
how much younger than Harry Ginny is - I'm guessing she's a spring 
baby, like Ron, but then they began dating, it could *so* change his 
> relationship with the Weasleys - he'd move out of the category 
> of "foster son" into the category of "son in law to be", which 
means that in any dispute between Ginny & Harry (what, you don't 
think they'd have any? Hey, Ebony - a new science project!) 

Hey!  You're right!  Mission: Ron/Hermione has been lots of fun... 
why not try Mission:  Ginny/Harry?  <vbeg>

> I want OBHWF - but I want it to come from the love and affection 
all the people involved feel for each other, not from contracts and 
> handfasting, or however witches & wizards get wed.

I read a novel about a handfasting recently, and I'm intrigued by the 
concept.  Think I may borrow it for my own nefarious purposes.  ;-)

--Ebony AKA AngieJ




From eyegrrl at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 29 00:11:28 2001
From: eyegrrl at earthlink.net (Chris)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:11:28 -0600
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semicolon debate
In-Reply-To: <99t12e+n5vb@eGroups.com>
References: <99ssii+v91c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010328175357.00a97890@mail.earthlink.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15453

I think that Hermione feels so much dislike for Fleur because she is part 
veela.  We first see this jealous side of her at the QWC when Harry and Ron 
went gaga over the veelas that came out for a pre-game event.  If I am 
remembering correctly, Harry was about to jump out of the box they were in 
before Hermione (?) grabbed him and said something like 'What are you 
doing??'  Here we have a situation that Hermione CAN'T join them in, this 
blind hormonal infatuation based THING!  The veelas don't affect her at 
all.  We also have Mr. Weasley making this statement a while later, after 
the veelas turned nasty and ugly "That's why you don't base love on looks 
alone"   She knows this already, having been through the Lockhart 
fiasco.  Hermione, being a sensitive young lady, is seeing "her" boys 
reacting like other boys she probably knows and this probably causes some 
pain for her and a healthy bit of irritation.  Knowing that Hermione isn't 
a glamor queen, I think she might be feeling a bit betrayed by Ron and 
Harry and how blatently they ignore her own value as a "girl-woman".

Then again, to stick up for Ron and Harry, I think its wonderful that they 
are able to see beyond gender and appreciate Hermione as a friend first, 
equal to them in all ways, rather than a GIRL!! Unfortunately we see the 
hormones starting to kick in, and since Hermione was already light years 
ahead of them, it looks like she'll only be farther ahead why they turn 
into the ones giggling in the corner over potential dates.

I might be way off, but this has been my belief since the beginning of 
GoF.  Hermione has a lot of spunk and I'd like to see her with someone who 
deserves her, be it Harry or Ron.  Neither have gotten to that point yet, 
tho :)

Chris

>Why *does* Hermione hate Fleur so much?  She generally gives people
>the benefit of the doubt.  Even Snape, before there was any indication
>that he was anything but horrible.  But with Fleur she just seems to
>detest her from the very beginning.  I don't think she's ever done
>that with anyone else.  So is it only jealousy, or is there something
>else?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar 29 00:26:33 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:26:33 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does anyone else have a problem with the amazon.com  HPstore tagline?
References: <99t96e+k4sj@eGroups.com> <3AC27AFC.B8B2335B@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <3AC28138.A2D85863@alumni.upenn.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15454

Harry Potter Toys page (which is why I think it wasn't a bookish person who wrote it) - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/121364/102-5580420-3650507

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:

> Real-To:  Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at swbell.net>
>
> Hi --
>
> Maybe I'm being an idiot, but I can't find this on the amazon site.  I
> was planning to email Amazon about it, but I'd like to see where it is
> first.  I've gone to the HP store.
>
> I definitely think it should be changed -- they should be alerted to
> this.  Maybe they've already removed it since I can't find it?  <g>
>
> Penny
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> >From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Thu Mar 29 01:55:13 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:55:13 -0400
Subject: Another Mrs Figg idea
Message-ID: <3AC29601.67288612@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 15455

What if Mrs. Figg is a Muggle who married a wizard? That could explain
why she can live near Harry as a Muggle without giving herself away to
the Dursleys as "one of those".

Although what her role as one of the old gang could have been as a
Muggle is anybody's guess.

Angela

-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
  "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs
should relax and get used to the idea."   Robert A. Heinlein



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Mar 29 01:58:54 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 01:58:54 -0000
Subject: Flame! (filk)
Message-ID: <99u4su+orgk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15456

Flame! (from GoF, Chap. 16)

(To the tune of the theme from Fame, the 1980 movie)

Dedicated to Pippin

(The Scene: The Great Hall of Hogwarts. Before a large assemblage, 
ALBUS DUMBLEDORE has just opened the casket containing the Goblet of 
Fire, which will select the three Triwizards champions)

DUMBLEDORE
A century ago this cup
For the Tourney was last set up
I was merely a youthful pup then
Never thought I'd ever see it again 

Here's what you must do
If you are 17
Sign  a scroll in your own hand
A champion from each school will stand
'Fore the Goblet of Flame

(The Goblet of Fire now stands in the Entrance Hall, "full to the 
brim with dancing blue-white flames". CEDRIC DIGGORY approaches the 
Goblet confidently)

CEDRIC
Flame!
I will now be undertaking 
To compete in the Triwizards game
Let there be no one mistaking 
The goal that I proudly proclaim
As the Triwizards champ I'll prevail
I'll surmount every danger and threat
For the sake of my house I won't fail
Hufflepuff will achieve glory yet

(CEDRIC deposits his name in the Goblet and exits.  FRED and GEORGE 
WEASLEY approach it furtively)

FRED AND GEORGE
They said we're too young to vie
But we're too old to cry
We can make it straight to the top
An age potion, taking a drop

Dumbledore has drawn the line
But rules get twisted all the time
It shouldn't be hard, just a Goblet to trick
Then our names it will pick!

Flame!
We haven't lived forever
But we both know how to fly
We're going to enter together
Give it the old college try
Dumbledore will read out a paper 
>From that ol' goblet of flame
Wouldn't we seem awfully clever
If it were inscribed with our name

(FRED and GEORGE put their scrolls in, and are thrown back by a 
powerful invisible force. Both exit, bearing long white beards.  
HARRY approaches the Goblet with a wistful expression)

HARRY
Flame!
It would be a great endeavor
Too bad I'm too young to apply
It would be such fun, however,
Upon me would be every eye
I can see myself competing
Winning the victory supreme
Of course it is never to happen 
It's merely an idle daydream





(Exit HARRY, turning back to gaze upon the Goblet just before exiting)


   - CMC





From sabrina_myst at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Mar 29 02:03:20 2001
From: sabrina_myst at yahoo.co.uk (Sabrina Myst)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 02:03:20 -0000
Subject: Random thoughts - of blood and Parseltongue
Message-ID: <99u558+fpk1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15457

"The circle is now complete.  When I left you, I was but the 
learner.  Now I am the master."

Er, don't ask what the above quote has to do with anything.  It's 
almost completely random, except the first part.  I was rereading CoS 
for about the fiftieth time, and when Dumbledore explained why Harry 
can speak Parseltongue, an Idea with a capital I hit me and I rushed 
right over to my computer to type it up.  Okay, although this is no 
Great Semicolon Debate, it's pretty nitpicky, but have any of you 
guys noticed that when he tried to kill Harry and lost his body, 
Voldemort transferred a bit of himself to Harry - and when he got his 
body back, he took a bit of Harry as part of himself??  That just 
struck me.  What's also odd is that each time, both got something out 
of it, although the person on the receiving end gets it in a slightly 
less left-handed way.  When V tries to kill Harry, Harry gets the 
ability to speak Parseltongue, and V doesn't die, even though he 
should've (I suspect that him giving Harry some of his powers has 
something to do with this, although exactly what I'm not sure).  When 
V takes Harry's blood, V gets Lily's protection and Harry gets - we 
don't know, but he probably got something good, as evidenced by 
Dumbledore's look of triumph.  Eesh, I don't know what I'm trying to 
say here.  If anyone wants to expand on this, be my guest, but I'm 
tired and I'm all theoried out - French homework has that effect on a 
person. >_<




From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Thu Mar 29 02:05:04 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 02:05:04 -0000
Subject: Fleur kisses Ron?-Re Semicolon debate
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010328134947.031224f0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <99u58g+m65e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15458

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 03:47 PM 3/28/01 +0000, Kimberly wrote:
> >Why *does* Hermione hate Fleur so much?  She generally gives people
> >the benefit of the doubt.  Even Snape, before there was any indication that he was anything but horrible.
> -- Dave
> I think Hermione starts out with the idea that teachers can do
> no wrong.
I agree. It wasn't until she thought she actually saw him jinxing Harry 
that she came to the idea that teacher does not always = right.

> Kimberly wrote:
> >But with Fleur she just seems to
> >detest her from the very beginning.  I don't think she's ever done
> >that with anyone else.  So is it only jealousy, or is there something
> >else?
> -- Dave
> Thinking about how *I* felt about the hunks and jocks (i.e. the
> "male veela") in High School, Hermione probably resents the fact
> that Fleur can make guys fall over her without lifting a finger.
> 
There's something else there, too.  The hunks, jocks, and beautiful 
girls (that have people falling over them) in ordinary circumstances do 
not have a magical advantage.  While there are probably other girls at 
Hogwarts that have boys falling all over them, those girls, at least, 
are not "cheating".  Even if it's not conscious competition, how do you 
compete with someone who's "enhanced".
I think it's similar to the reaction ::ducking:: that many women feel 
toward Muggle women who are "enhanced" (ala "like those are real").
Also, as far as Hermione not being the type for jealousy (mentioned in 
another post) because she's got her hands full, and she's secure and 
all that -- sometimes the raging hormones overpower logic.  No offense 
to anyone intended, but Hermione is a teen.  What seems out of 
character one moment may seem perfectly reasonable the next.  At least, 
that's been my experience.
a.





From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 29 02:40:48 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:40:48 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Random thoughts - of blood and Parseltongue
References: <99u558+fpk1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC2A0AF.C119E16F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15459

Sabrina Myst wrote:

> What's also odd is that each time, both got something out
> of it, although the person on the receiving end gets it in a slightly
> less left-handed way.  When V tries to kill Harry, Harry gets the
> ability to speak Parseltongue, and V doesn't die, even though he
> should've (I suspect that him giving Harry some of his powers has
> something to do with this, although exactly what I'm not sure).  When
> V takes Harry's blood, V gets Lily's protection and Harry gets - we
> don't know, but he probably got something good, as evidenced by
> Dumbledore's look of triumph.

It has been postulated (by me, but I think I was echoing someone else)
that what Harry has gained by this is the ability to actually defeat
Voldemort. It's been made pretty obvious that there's precious little of
the human Tom Riddle in the all-but-immortal Voldemort. He himself
mentions the changes and things he went through. It may be that since he
and Harry have shared powers, and now share blood, that Harry is the
only person who would be capable of killing him. The look of triumph may
be that Voldemort has just opened the door for his own permanent
downfall.

Which reopens that whole "but do we *want* Harry to kill?" thing again.
I think he may have to.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 29 02:58:08 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:58:08 -0600
Subject: Heaven save us, another original thought (was House Elves' Real Power)
References: <F120sjbmDoP6j8oUwoy0000dfa2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AC2A4C0.23A70027@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15460

crystal white wrote:

> Remember at the end of CoS when Malfoy Sr. started to go after HP for
> "losing him his house elf"......Dobby said "You will not harm Harry
> Potter" and then flung Malfoy Sr. down the stairs.  This is definite
> forshadowing to me.

This reminded me of something my husband said (he of the 2/3 the way
through book 1). I'd told him of our WWII comparisons, and also of the
concern about Harry having to decide to kill and how he would be marked
by evil ever after even if he'd had the best of intentions.

He suggested that, following a WWII train of thought, perhaps Voldemort
will actually be finally destroyed by a third party, much the same way
that the balance was tipped for Hitler by Stalin's turning on him. Harry
will be pivotal to Voldemort's demise, but this other party will kill
him (in a related analogy, kind of like the end of Lion King where Simba
didn't actually kill Scar, the hyenas did, but Simba put him down
there). I'd been talking about house-elves, but I got to thinking.
Consistently, in the background of the books, has been mentions of
goblin rebellions, goblin wars, and goblins seem to formidable enough
opponents to worry Bagman.

Can anyone see the havoc if Voldemort courts and wins over the goblins?
They control the economy, they run the impregnable Gringotts! And they
evidently have had great power as a race, although they seem so passe
now--could Voldemort's ultimate end be when these allies turn on him?

What does anyone think? It seemed to me that via the excessively boring
relative of mine, Professor Binns, we have as readers been delicately
and thoroughly conditioned so that goblins as a danger, or goblins even
doing anything except banking, is something for the dusty pages of
history--but at the same time we've been made very aware of goblins as a
race. A Formerly Potent race. Hmmmm.

Apologies if this was mentioned before. False advertising on my part.

--Amanda

(are house elves related to goblins...?)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 29 03:25:06 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:25:06 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Owl-order
References: <20010326111531.14622.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com> <3ABF5ABE.DD60583E@swbell.net> <001c01c0b63b$ae397260$2814a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <3AC2AB11.53553194@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15461

Doreen wrote:

> Has this subject been discussed? Also, someone was questioning how
> Sirius could have purchased Harry's broom without being discovered.
> Could he not have used this owl-post?

Sorry this took so long. Sirius did use owl-order of some kind; in his
letter to Harry at the end of PoA, he says "Crookshanks took the order
to the Owl Office for me. I used your name but told them to take the
gold from my own Gringotts vault."

Which leads to the interesting question of why the goblins would allow
access to anyone's vault who was not the owner, unless the owner
authorized it. And if Sirius authorized it, why was this contact not
reported to the authorities during the whole (pardon the expression)
witch hunt for him? This adds some credence to my other post on the
goblins--they are a breed apart from the wizarding world, and not
terribly concerned with their laws. Gringotts has its regulations.
Patrons of Gringotts must follow them. Patrons who abide by the regs can
do business. Even dangerous wanted murderers.

Wonder if Voldemort has a vault. Wonder if he's been accruing interest.
Wonder if it's a war chest.

Thoughts?

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ebonyink at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 29 03:55:34 2001
From: ebonyink at hotmail.com (Ebony AKA AngieJ)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 03:55:34 -0000
Subject: Flame! (filk)
In-Reply-To: <99u4su+orgk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ubnm+q32e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15462

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Flame! (from GoF, Chap. 16)
> 
> (To the tune of the theme from Fame, the 1980 movie)
> 
> Dedicated to Pippin

Caius, this filk was brilliant!  I usually enjoy them quietly, 
without subjecting the list to my "me too!" posts about them, but I'm 
a huge fan of "Fame".  Very funny and witty and... wow.

Off to read ASA!

--Ebony AKA AngieJ (still trying to work on her "I'm My Own Grandpa" 
filk... it's coming slowly, though)




From inyron at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 04:06:11 2001
From: inyron at yahoo.com (inyron at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 04:06:11 -0000
Subject: Sirius and the Firebolt (was Heaven save us, another original thought)
In-Reply-To: <3AC2A4C0.23A70027@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99ucbj+7t9v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15463


This has nothing to do with Amanda's Voldemort theory, but I 
remembered something while reading her post.  A while back there was 
a debate over how Sirius could have bought the Firebolt for Harry 
while being a wanted fugitive, and I don't think this was mentioned
  
Sending money to the shop with a note indicating who the recipient 
should be would have been enough; the store wouldn't have needed to 
know the name of the giver as long as they had the money.  But how 
was Sirius supposed to get the money out of his bank vault?  If the 
banks were run or overseen by the ministry, it would have been 
impossible.  But the bank was run by Goblins.  They are most 
definitely separate.  And  don't think they would have cared if the 
person using their bank happened to be wanted by the Wizarding 
Ministry of Magic.  Do you think the Goblins have never fraternized 
with people or beasts deemed dangerous by wizards?  What about 
political enemies?  And of course, they've had their own problems 
with the Ministry.   I see them as a neutral third party.  Why should 
they care that the MoM is looking for him?  Until Sirius crosses 
them, they have no reason to deny him service or notify the Ministry.

I'm sure the note with Crookshanks was like the one Hagrid had for 
Dumbledore in PS/SS.  here has to be some way Gringotts makes sure 
the money goes to the right person.


inyron



--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> crystal white wrote:

> Can anyone see the havoc if Voldemort courts and wins over the 
goblins?
> They control the economy, they run the impregnable Gringotts! And 
they
> evidently have had great power as a race, although they seem so 
passe
> now--could Voldemort's ultimate end be when these allies turn on 
him?
> 





From tobeybickle at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 04:16:09 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 04:16:09 -0000
Subject: Sirius and the Firebolt (was Heaven save us, another original thought)
In-Reply-To: <99ucbj+7t9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ucu9+c3bg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15464

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., inyron at y... wrote:
If the 
> banks were run or overseen by the ministry, it would have been 
> impossible.  But the bank was run by Goblins.  They are most 
> definitely separate.  And  don't think they would have cared if the 
> person using their bank happened to be wanted by the Wizarding 
> Ministry of Magic.  Do you think the Goblins have never fraternized 
> with people or beasts deemed dangerous by wizards?  What about 
> political enemies?  And of course, they've had their own problems 
> with the Ministry.   I see them as a neutral third party.  Why 
should 
> they care that the MoM is looking for him?  Until Sirius crosses 
> them, they have no reason to deny him service or notify the 
Ministry.
> 
> I'm sure the note with Crookshanks was like the one Hagrid had for 
> Dumbledore in PS/SS.  here has to be some way Gringotts makes sure 
> the money goes to the right person.
> 
> 

If you read the new magical beasts book, it lends some insight into 
the goblins and their relationship to MOM.. They're most definitely a 
seperate entity from the Ministry, which probably has something to do 
to the rebellions that have been mentioned several times. I think 
they're soveriegn in some way, which is probably why they maintain 
the bank, being sort of an impartial third party.





From ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 04:40:51 2001
From: ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com (ourobouros_1999 at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 04:40:51 -0000
Subject: The Elusive Snape task
In-Reply-To: <99tpfe+6m99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99uecj+tqra@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15465

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sarah Waggott" <s_waggott at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
> > 8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?
> 
> I'm not sure about this. At first I thought he could not return to 
> the DEs as he would be killed (and we don't want that :)). Then I 
> thought it was a possibility as he could probably manage to smart- 
> talk his way out of death and get away with the Cruciatus curse. I 
> still don't know and am kind of sitting on a leaning fence at the 
> moment.

Me too. At this point, I'm just waiting for book five. And if JKR 
doesn't explain in that one, I will whack my head against the wall a 
couple of times ^_^. 

<snip>
Though nothing in the book *says* what it is Snape is doing. We can 
only draw the conclusion that 
a)Dumbledore wants to keep it under wraps. 
b)They've planned this out before. 
c)It makes Snape nervous, as he blanches. 
d)Whatever it is, it didn't take that long, as we hear nothing about 
Snape being absent for his classes or whatever. 

I kind of hope it is something we haven't thought of, though. 
Although the double agent stuff would promise to be interesting. 

If Snape is so far the most mysterious/intriguing character, who is 
the second most?

Charmian




From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Thu Mar 29 05:24:22 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:24:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] HP Essays...
Message-ID: <20010329052422.7383F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15466

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From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 05:43:12 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 05:43:12 -0000
Subject: Mrs Figg Animagi 
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010328142057.02ef74e0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <99ui1g+o8qa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15467

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 03:39 PM 3/28/01 -0600, Doreen wrote:
> >What about Mrs. Figg being an animagi as Mrs. Norris?

I don't believe she could have gone back and forth from Hogwarts to 
Privet drive that often for 11 years. We can overlook the fact that 
no-one noticed scabbers on the marauder's map as Pettigrew. We cannot 
ignore that Mrs. Norris does shows up as Mrs. Norris. So she cannot 
be an animagi. 


 
> As usual in the animagus speculations, we're back to the annoying
> question, "Why isn't she listed as registered?"  Unless Hermione
> doesn't know about Harry's "Mrs. Figg", and so didn't make any
> kind of connection when she saw her name.  Or maybe she's not
> listed so that the Death Eaters don't know the truth about her.

Good point. If she is listed Hermione would glance past her name. 



> I'm still laying my money on Filch as the one who "shows unexpected
> magic late in life".

I couldn't agree more. It would be a shame if he never did magic. 


Bugg 





From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 05:46:30 2001
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 05:46:30 -0000
Subject: Heaven save us, another original thought (was House Elves' Real Power)
In-Reply-To: <3AC2A4C0.23A70027@texas.net>
Message-ID: <99ui7m+n8e4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15468

Amanda wrote an interesting theory about goblins going to Voldemort's 
side... and then I snipped it...

I really like the idea that the goblins are going to be Voldy's 
downfall.  Especially if it echoes Bagman's downfall... you know, 
Voldy's aware of how the goblins love money, all that stuff... and 
then he doesn't take them seriously when they start asking for their 
paychecks for working in his service... he says something like, "You 
Fools!  You work for me and will be paid when your work is DONE!"  
Then the goblins say, "Oh no no no... we work for money, not for you. 
 No money, no work."  Voldy: "You will do my bidding, you hideous 
little creatures, or I will make you pay!"  Goblins: "We're not doing 
anything until we get our galleons."  Voldy: "Imperius!"  Goblins: 
"You stupid git, that doesn't work on goblins.  Now you are going to 
die."

Okay, so it might not go EXACTLY like that... ;)

Jen (who was having a rotten day until her sister called to say she 
thinks she has a taker for our dog... yippee!)






From bugganeer at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 06:13:12 2001
From: bugganeer at yahoo.com (Bugg)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 06:13:12 -0000
Subject: Percy
In-Reply-To: <99tauh+pttf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99ujpo+8i21@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15469

My response first: 
We know Percy has broken rules [as alot of teenagers do] for physical 
attention [love?]. While Harry and Ron were transformed into Crabbe 
and Goyle they ran into a Ravenclaw down in the dungeon area. Shortly 
after they ran into Percy. Although neither should have been down 
there I dismissed the connection between the two. Harry recognized 
her in the hospital as "the girl we ran into". Even Prefects break 
rules for attention [love?].     

I think Percy will stand by his family when it really counts. Even if 
he does make mistakes.  



Previous messages: 
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., absinthe at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:
> > > <<(CoS Ch 16) After Ginny's abduction, Percy sends an owl to 
> > > his parents then locks himself in his dormitory. Fred, George 
> > > and Ron sit in the Common Room. I would categorize Ginny's 
> > > abduction as a "time of trial", yet Percy isolates himself from 
> > > his brothers. 
> > > Throughout the books, Percy is portrayed as reliable and 
> > > responsible and ready to show it. As the eldest Weasley at 
> > > Hogwarts, Percy was the de facto 
> > > head of the Weasley family. Yet, he is locked up in his 
> > > dormitory while his younger brothers sit together in shock. 
> > > That's not being terribly supportive or consoling at a time 
> > > of trouble.>>

> > Yes, but....
> > 
> > Let's turn that example around.  Before Ginny was abducted Percy 
> > was acting in a strange manner because (as we find out later) 
> > his girlfriend was one of the petrified victims.  Yet none of his 
> > three brothers asked him why he was particularly down and one of 
> > them suggested it was because Percy never thought the monster 
> > would attack a fellow prefect.  Where was the brotherly 
> > consolation or concern from the younger three then?
> > 
> > As for locking himself away after Ginny was abducted, I think 
> > we can safely add a huge load of guilt to Percy's shoulders.  
> > Not only is his girlfriend still petrified but his kid sister 
> > is another victim and he should have done more to find out 
> > why she was so stressed or if she might have known something 
> > rather than assuming she wanted to fink on his love-life.
> > 
> > Poor Percy.  First of all shackled with an uncool name in 
> > a family of normal ones and then suspected of being hard of 
> > heart (and at worst a perfect recruit for the Dark Side).  
> 
> I agree with you about Percy feeling guilty. I think he came to the 
> same conclusion as Ron that Ginny knew something about the Chamber. 
> But guilt or not, Ginny disappears and her brothers are in shock. 
> As the oldest, Percy should have tried to comfort his brothers 
> instead of locking himself in his room. I know it's unfair but 
> the older kids in a family are usually given the job of being 
> mentors to the younger kids, you know, the "big brother or big 
> sister". Percy kind of shunned 
> his duty, so to speak.
> 
> :-)Milz (who's getting worried about all the responses Demelza's 
> getting and is hoping she'll get her password so I won't have to 
> copy all these responses and e-mail them to her....) 





From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Thu Mar 29 06:30:38 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:30:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter 36 Summary
Message-ID: <20010329063038.3671936F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15470

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From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Mar 29 07:03:17 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 07:03:17 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <99tnir+orga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99umnl+4jmk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15471

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> 
 
> Oh!  And for the record I don't think Ginny's a boring wimp in 
canon, 
> your factual-looking statement above notwithstanding <bg> - there's 
an 
> outside possibility that there are others who might agree with me, 
I'm 
> guessing.
> 
Good, I'm glad I'm not the only one.  I see her has being quite 
enigmatic.  I've gone through all this before - particularly with 
regard to the possible Hermione/Ginny friendship - and I know it has 
met with a lot of opposition, but I think what small role she plays 
in GoF isn't boring or wimpish at all.  I think she acts in a very 
mature way.  She is comforting Ron in a motherly way, until he forces 
her back into the little sister role, she knows how to keep a secret, 
and she doesn't let Neville down when there's the possibility she can 
go with Harry to the Yule Ball.  And she does seem livelier at home - 
Bill's hair is an example of this.  Penny mentions also that Hermione 
always tries to get rid of Ginny before they discuss something 
important.  Well, we know from her treatment of the time turner etc. 
that Hermione can keep a secret, and has a very strong sense of what 
she can and cannot say to people.  It is natural that she doesn't 
want Ginny around to her some stray reference or discussion of 
Sirius, as only Hermione, Harry, Ron and Dumbledore (and perhaps 
Lupin?) were aware of what happened and they need to keep it that way.
Catherine




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Thu Mar 29 07:03:55 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:03:55 -0800
Subject: Harry Potter Books Burned
References: <99ujpo+8i21@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004701c0b81e$6c7dfe60$3b4e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 15472

(prolly already mentioned but I've been missing most posts so here ya go again)

      'Ungodly' Harry Potter Books Burned 
           
     
      Updated 9:17 AM ET March 28, 2001 
PITTSBURGH (Reuters) - The Rev. George Bender says he never thought a little book burning would get so much publicity. 
But news reporters have not stopped calling his tiny Harvest Assembly of God Church in rural western Pennsylvania since word got out that church members held a ceremonial burning of "ungodly" videotapes, music CDs and books including some of Harry Potter's magical tales. 

"We  
     
           
      
     

     
got a lot more attention than we were planning on. I've been getting calls all morning from all around the country," Bender told Reuters on Tuesday. "We were only out to make a little noise in the local community." 

The Pentecostal church, located about 40 miles north of Pittsburgh, sponsored a book burning at the edge of its gravel parking lot on Sunday evening. Among the 30 church 

members and guests in attendance were teen-agers who led hymns including "Amazing Grace" and "Father of Creation." 

Into the fire went 1970s albums by Joe Walsh and the rock group Foreigner; CDs by Bruce Springsteen, Pearl Jam and AC/DC; and Walt Disney Co. videos of "Pinocchio" and "Hercules." 

"It's the same old devil with a new face," explained Bender, 60, whose congregation has about 95 members. 

Only a few Harry Potter books were among the trunk load of articles fed to the flames. But Bender said British author J.K. Rowling's "supernatural" novels hold special status because local schools distribute workbooks that feature the boy magician but will not allow church members to hand out Bibles. 

"Harry Potter is a big flash point," the clergyman said. 

The church modeled the book burning on a biblical passage from the New Testament's Book of Acts, which describes how former practitioners of magic burned their books in public. 

"When they did this, they did it before all so it would provoke the question, 'What are you doing?"' said Bender, whose followers believe in faith healing and speaking in tongues. 

The reason why? "There is one God and he has set his standards through the Commandments, and Jesus Christ is our lord and savior. Things that misrepresent or cause us to pull away from him, we should cleanse from our lives," he said. 

Bender said the church had never held a book burning before but might try it again if doing so would "accomplish something positive toward expressing our love for God." 

Meanwhile, publicity has not hurt. "We got some people mad at us. But it's good to have publicity. It's good," he said. 

Saitaina
http://www.angelfire.com/al/Diarys/index.html
The New and Improved Watcher's Diarys-Come, Enjoy the Musty Smell!
Home of BTVS, Angel, Anita Blake and  Harry Potter Fanfiction


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From tobeybickle at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 07:12:12 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 02:12:12 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Books Burned
Message-ID: <20.1409d4df.27f43a4c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15473

Harry Potter Books Burned

That article made me sick to my stomach..


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Thu Mar 29 07:11:34 2001
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:11:34 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Books Burned
References: <20.1409d4df.27f43a4c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006701c0b81f$7dec29a0$3b4e28d1@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 15474

You're not the only one Hun.

Saitaina
http://www.angelfire.com/al/Diarys/index.html
The New and Improved Watcher's Diarys-Come, Enjoy the Musty Smell!
Home of BTVS, Angel, Anita Blake and  Harry Potter Fanfiction


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Mar 29 07:14:44 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 07:14:44 -0000
Subject: Chapter 36 Summary
In-Reply-To: <99tpfe+6m99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99und4+an5c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15475

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Sarah Waggott" <s_waggott at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 8. What do we think about what Dumbledore has asked Snape to do?
> 
> I'm not sure about this. At first I thought he could not return to 
> the DEs as he would be killed (and we don't want that :)). Then I 
> thought it was a possibility as he could probably manage to smart- 
> talk his way out of death and get away with the Cruciatus curse. I 
> still don't know and am kind of sitting on a leaning fence at the 
> moment.
> 
> But...what I want to ask is *when* does Snape do whatever it is 
> Dumbledore asks him to do? 
> I thought at first that Snape left to go on his 'mission' at the 
end 
> of Ch. 36 and would not return until Book 5. However, after 
> rereading, I realised that he is at the end of term feast (sorry, 
> can't remember how long after Ch 36 this is ~ months, weeks, 
days?).  
> Presumably he has already done part of whatever he had to do or he 
> wouldn't have looked so pale when Dumbledore first mentioned it. So 
> if he is returning to the DE circle (which is the way I am leaning 
at 
> the moment) he may have made contact with one or two DEs straight 
> away and be waiting to meet others during the summer holidays.
> 
> I'm also not sure whether the DEs know about Snape being a spy. I 
get 
> the impression it is a highly secret society. Wouldn't Lucius 
Malfoy 
> have done/said something by now? Though perhaps he wouldn't as he 
> didn't know V was returning to power until GoF. But this still gave 
> him a whole book to do something i.e. tell V, blackmail Snape, 
> something along those lines. Maybe.
> 
> I like the theory posted that Snape is the coward and Karkaroff is 
> the deserter. If V believes this, it may make Snape's task easier. 
> 
> And I stand corrected, Snape does not have beady eyes. I think I 
was 
> trying to adapt facts for my theories again. However, I plan to 
cling 
> to this wobbly little branch for dear life, even when the tree 
> crashes down! I will be busy, clinging to a wobbly branch and 
> perching on a leaning fence! ::grins ~ I would wave, but  I fear I 
> will lose my balance::
> 
> Sarah

I've been thinking about this theory too, and then discovered on 
rereading some of the comments Barty Crouch says regarding 
Karkarof.  "Karkarof fled tonight, when he felt the Dark Mark burn 
upon his arm.  He betrayed too many faithful supporters of the Dark 
Lord to wish to meet them...but I doubt he will get far.  The Dark 
Lord has ways of tracking his enemies."  (Note the enemies).
So in light of this I agree that Karkarof is the one who has left for 
ever and that Voldemort thinks Snape is the one too cowardly to 
return. 
We don't actually know that Snape didn't go to Voldemort that night.  
I think it is a real possibility.  He can say to V. that he couldn't 
disapparate inside the school grounds, sorry for being late and all 
that (!), and Voldemort would be none the wiser.  Afterall, there is 
no indication that Snape sold anyone out to buy his freedom from 
Azkaban, as he just had Dumbledore vouch for him, and how many people 
apart from Dumbledore knew that he was playing spy?  I think 
Dumbledore told Snape to go and make contact.
Catherine





From tobeybickle at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 07:23:51 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 02:23:51 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Books Burned
Message-ID: <104.f919a2.27f43d07@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15476

Oh, I need to find this website I had from some southern preacher.. He was 
talking about how Snape advocates drugs and when Dumbledore says "To the 
well-ordered mind, death is nothing but the next great adventure" he's 
supposedly talking about Asian concepts of reincarnation. Then he takes 
Quirrel's quote about there not being right and wrong, but rather just power, 
and explains that the quote is from Rowling herself. 

The whole time, I'm thinking the there are going to be hundreds of parents 
stupid enough to believe this guy. They really should sue people like that 
for slander. I'll post the link if I can find it again.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From marshamoon at gateway.net  Thu Mar 29 07:38:57 2001
From: marshamoon at gateway.net (marshamoon)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 01:38:57 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Comments on Various Shipping Posts
Message-ID: <029d01c0b823$91db2c00$f27a2e3f@oemcomputer>

No: HPFGUIDX 15477

I'm new.  I'm not going to attempt to quote "canon" at 12:40 AM, but I'll dig it up later if I must.  GoF, IMO, does give us very strong indications Ron has an unexpressed and unacknowledged romantic interest in Hermione.  Harry realizes this. ( "Somehow he thought Hermione got the idea much better than Ron.....")  This doesn't necessarily mean she reciprocates these feelings of Ron's.  If we are to assume, from "next time, ask me first" that she has a willingness to date Ron, that may not necessarily mean she has strong romantic feelings for Ron.  After all, she is presently willing to date Viktor Krum. He's famous, he could have any girl at Hogwarts, and he thinks she's the real deal.  What's not to like about that?  She's flattered by his attentions, and we don't really know what she thinks of him beyond "...he's really nice."  Hermione is smart, that's established.  She is also smart enough to figure out when a young man is interested.  She seems willing to throw herself into the business of "learning" about being a girl, and getting a start on the male/female relationship thing.  A bird in the hand is sometimes better for practice than the one in the bush, after all. (Harry and Ron are the "birds" in my analogy) If Ron and Viktor are willing, why not? On the intent of JKR's intentions here, we as readers are allowed to realize through Viktor's and Ron's attention to her, that Hermione is turning into a girl: a possible love interest to someone, & a very attractive and desirable girl at that. We know the relationships are about to change because of that.   Although from the book, and from JKR's interview, there is a strong hint that a romantic relationship may develop between R/H, there is absolutely (IMO) no foreshadowing to indicate that their possible relationship will last.  Timing wise, hint-wise, IMO, it seems likely to me that Ron and Hermione are likely to fool around a bit in the upcoming book.  Does it seem likely that this may continue for the next three texts?  Given the numerous occasions on which Ron and Hermione have disagreed with one another, it could be that their differences would be more likely to surface within a romantic pairing and they break up.  No doubt you have figured out that I think the H/H pairing will be the most likely conclusion to the series.  Even though we are being led to believe that a possible H/G, H/C could develop and romantic futures may exist for V/H or R/H (or N/H), I believe these are red herrings.  Why?  Because the second most well developed character in these books is Hermione. We know more about Harry only because the books are written from his POV.   She has had more written about her and more personal growth attributed to her than even Ron.  Ron is there just as often as Hermione, but she's the larger character (IMO). I cannot believe that Rowling would spend that much time and effort on a character who will not turn out to be the Heroine to Harry's Hero.  She is the strong female character. I don't think the fact that Harry hasn't shown much interest in her yet is telling, since there are some indications he seems to be lagging a bit behind Ron in his sexual development.  A lurch in his stomach for Cho doesn't translate into much for me.  I can envision the H/G thing, but I have to agree with others that this is not supported by character development.  

And anyway, isn't that tease Hermione going to be spending some time in Bulgaria with Viktor this summer?  Practice makes perfect.  And when you're Miss Granger, you must be perfect.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 07:35:22 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:35:22 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Blue Peter transcript Harry getting killed off
References: <00dc01c0b6d2$cfbe0c60$7614a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <018a01c0b822$d18929c0$ca561c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 15478

Doreen wrote:

> It really disturbs me that JKR has said before that she would never
kill off Ron Weasley, Harry's best friend, but she has teased several
times about, "How do we know that Harry will survive the series?"
Does anyone else have a problem with this?

Actually, I don't have a problem with that. Off course it all depends
on where JKR takes us in the next three books. I just hope he doesn't
die a "useless/senseless" death. That would be a waste of the
character.
If Harry dies, he should die a heroic death, saving Hermione, or Ron,
or someone else important, not like Cedric.

Rena



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Mar 29 08:21:22 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:21:22 -0000
Subject: Blue Peter transcript Harry getting killed off
In-Reply-To: <018a01c0b822$d18929c0$ca561c3f@rena>
Message-ID: <99ura2+106ho@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15479

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rena" <fmu30c at y...> wrote:
> Doreen wrote:
> 
> > It really disturbs me that JKR has said before that she would 
never
> kill off Ron Weasley, Harry's best friend, but she has teased 
several
> times about, "How do we know that Harry will survive the series?"
> Does anyone else have a problem with this?
> 
> Actually, I don't have a problem with that. Off course it all 
depends
> on where JKR takes us in the next three books. I just hope he 
doesn't
> die a "useless/senseless" death. That would be a waste of the
> character.
> If Harry dies, he should die a heroic death, saving Hermione, or 
Ron,
> or someone else important, not like Cedric.
> 
> Rena
> 
In one of the last interviews JKR was asked if there could be an 8th 
book with HP as an adult. She answere she has not "planned" more than 
7, then grinned and said "but never say never"( I forgot which 
interview I found this in). IMHO this means Harry will survive the 
series.
 Another reason is, that, even if we enjoy the canon so much as 
adults, the books are "children's books". JKR wants to show children 
the fight between good and evil and good has to win. To sacrifice 
Harry on this battle would be very disturbing to the 9 to 13year old 
kids, who are the avarage-aged Readers. 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Mar 29 08:36:26 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:36:26 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Books Burned
In-Reply-To: <004701c0b81e$6c7dfe60$3b4e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <99us6a+lccc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15480


As a German I have my own really strong feelings about burning books. 
Haven't these people learned anything from History?
After all, we have seen what fanatism comes up to. I hope this doesn't 
go any further, specially since the Reverend enjoyed the publicity so 
much !!

As for what the Rev. claimed as reasons: If all books containing 
witchcraft would be burned, they would have alot to do, including all 
the old fairy tales that have been read to children since all times.
I have such a fanatic person living across the street. When I said, I 
love the HP-books she answered: I don't believe in Magic, I believe in 
God.
My answer was:>You read "the ugly duckling to your child. Do you reall 
believe ducks can talk? It's fantasy and it teches the children about 
good and evil" She had to admit that she has never touched the books, 
but decided to spread hate about it,just because her Rev. told her to. 
I think this is really dangerous.

-- I know there are no original quotes in my post, but I think it is 
still important enough for the main board---

Mecki 
--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:
> (prolly already mentioned but I've been missing most posts so here 
ya go again)
> 
>       'Ungodly' Harry Potter Books Burned 
>            
>      
>       Updated 9:17 AM ET March 28, 2001 
> PITTSBURGH (Reuters) - The Rev. George Bender says he never thought 
a little book burning would get so much publicity. 
> But news reporters have not stopped calling his tiny Harvest 
Assembly of God Church in rural western Pennsylvania since word got 
out that church members held a ceremonial burning of "ungodly" 
videotapes, music CDs and books including some of Harry Potter's 
magical tales. 
> 
> "We  
>      
>            
>       
>      
> 
>      
> got a lot more attention than we were planning on. I've been getting 
calls all morning from all around the country," Bender told Reuters on 
Tuesday. "We were only out to make a little noise in the local 
community." 
> 
> The Pentecostal church, located about 40 miles north of Pittsburgh, 
sponsored a book burning at the edge of its gravel parking lot on 
Sunday evening. Among the 30 church 
> 
> members and guests in attendance were teen-agers who led hymns 
including "Amazing Grace" and "Father of Creation." 
> 
> Into the fire went 1970s albums by Joe Walsh and the rock group 
Foreigner; CDs by Bruce Springsteen, Pearl Jam and AC/DC; and Walt 
Disney Co. videos of "Pinocchio" and "Hercules." 
> 
> "It's the same old devil with a new face," explained Bender, 60, 
whose congregation has about 95 members. 
> 
> Only a few Harry Potter books were among the trunk load of articles 
fed to the flames. But Bender said British author J.K. Rowling's 
"supernatural" novels hold special status because local schools 
distribute workbooks that feature the boy magician but will not allow 
church members to hand out Bibles. 
> 
> "Harry Potter is a big flash point," the clergyman said. 
> 
> The church modeled the book burning on a biblical passage from the 
New Testament's Book of Acts, which describes how former practitioners 
of magic burned their books in public. 
> 
> "When they did this, they did it before all so it would provoke the 
question, 'What are you doing?"' said Bender, whose followers believe 
in faith healing and speaking in tongues. 
> 
> The reason why? "There is one God and he has set his standards 
through the Commandments, and Jesus Christ is our lord and savior. 
Things that misrepresent or cause us to pull away from him, we should 
cleanse from our lives," he said. 
> 
> Bender said the church had never held a book burning before but 
might try it again if doing so would "accomplish something positive 
toward expressing our love for God." 
> 
> Meanwhile, publicity has not hurt. "We got some people mad at us. 
But it's good to have publicity. It's good," he said. 
> 
> Saitaina
> http://www.angelfire.com/al/Diarys/index.html
> The New and Improved Watcher's Diarys-Come, Enjoy the Musty Smell!
> Home of BTVS, Angel, Anita Blake and  Harry Potter Fanfiction
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar 29 08:44:02 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 02:44:02 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry getting killed off
References: <00dc01c0b6d2$cfbe0c60$7614a3d1@doreen> <3AC0C024.76B975E@swbell.net> <3AC0E386.773F918E@erols.com>
Message-ID: <011801c0b82c$68ae5060$3f14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15481

Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
>
> Hi --
>
> Doreen wrote:
>
> > It really disturbs me that JKR has said before that she would never
> > kill off Ron Weasley, Harry's best friend, but she has teased several
> > times about, "How do we know that Harry will survive the series?"
> > Does anyone else have a problem with this?
>
> Actually, she hasn't said "never" with respect to killing off Ron.
> She's said that she finds it funny that kids are always asking her not
> to kill off Ron.  She said they know enough to recognize that the hero's
> best friend often dies.  She's bothered by the fact that noone seems to
> concerned about whether Hermione will die or not.  Everyone just assumes
> she'll be fine.

At the risk of starting up the gender-equality discussion all
over again, I suspect this is because  Hermione is female.
Heroines and/or love interests are =much= less likely to die than
(male) heroes' (male) best friends.

Note that I'm talking about reader expectations here, not any
assumptions about what JKR might or might not do!


--Margaret Dean
  *****************************************
You are right ... she did not say "never" ... but she did say, in Time
Magazine, 10/30/00:

"It's great to hear feedback from the kids. Mostly they are really worried
about Ron. As if I'm going to kill Harry's best friend. What I find
interesting is only once has anyone said to me, "Don't kill Hermione," and
that was after a reading when I said no one's ever worried about her.
Another kid said, "Yeah, well, she's bound to get through O.K." They see her
as someone who is not vulnerable, but I see her as someone who does have
quite a lot of vulnerability in her personality. Hermione is me, near
enough. A caricature of me when I was younger. I wasn't that clever. But I
was that annoying on occasion. Girls are very tolerant of her because she is
not an uncommon female type--the little girl who feels plain and hugely
compensates by working very hard and wanting to get everything just so."
*****************
I guess that I just took the "as if" to mean that she would never do that.
In the US, "As if" means "that is the last thing in the world I would do."
Doreen
*****************





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Mar 29 08:56:01 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:56:01 -0000
Subject: Harry getting killed off
In-Reply-To: <011801c0b82c$68ae5060$3f14a3d1@doreen>
Message-ID: <99utb1+9st9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15482

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Doreen" <nera at r...> wrote:
> Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer wrote:
> >
> > Hi --
> >
> > Doreen wrote:
> >
> > > It really disturbs me that JKR has said before that she would 
never
> > > kill off Ron Weasley, Harry's best friend, but she has teased 
several
> > > times about, "How do we know that Harry will survive the 
series?"
> > > Does anyone else have a problem with this?
> >
> > Actually, she hasn't said "never" with respect to killing off Ron.
> > She's said that she finds it funny that kids are always asking 
her not
> > to kill off Ron.  She said they know enough to recognize that the 
hero's
> > best friend often dies.  She's bothered by the fact that noone 
seems to
> > concerned about whether Hermione will die or not.  Everyone just 
assumes
> > she'll be fine.
> 
> At the risk of starting up the gender-equality discussion all
> over again, I suspect this is because  Hermione is female.
> Heroines and/or love interests are =much= less likely to die than
> (male) heroes' (male) best friends.
> 
> Note that I'm talking about reader expectations here, not any
> assumptions about what JKR might or might not do!
> 
> 
> --Margaret Dean
>   *****************************************
> You are right ... she did not say "never" ... but she did say, in 
Time
> Magazine, 10/30/00:
> 
> "It's great to hear feedback from the kids. Mostly they are really 
worried
> about Ron. As if I'm going to kill Harry's best friend. What I find
> interesting is only once has anyone said to me, "Don't kill 
Hermione," and
> that was after a reading when I said no one's ever worried about 
her.
> Another kid said, "Yeah, well, she's bound to get through O.K." 
They see her
> as someone who is not vulnerable, but I see her as someone who does 
have
> quite a lot of vulnerability in her personality. Hermione is me, 
near
> enough. A caricature of me when I was younger. I wasn't that 
clever. But I
> was that annoying on occasion. Girls are very tolerant of her 
because she is
> not an uncommon female type--the little girl who feels plain and 
hugely
> compensates by working very hard and wanting to get everything just 
so."
> *****************
> I guess that I just took the "as if" to mean that she would never 
do that.
> In the US, "As if" means "that is the last thing in the world I 
would do."
> Doreen
> *****************

The "as if" can be taken either way these days in England.  It can 
mean "the implication being" or "yeah, that's likely - not".  So I 
guess it's another great JKR ambiguity.  (By the way, was this from 
an article or live interview - the way she said it should give the 
answer).

Catherine




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 09:21:09 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 01:21:09 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summer School? QTA spoiler
References: <99t7i3+oelb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <036b01c0b831$98c305c0$ca561c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 15483




> QTA Spoiler
>
> s
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
> s
> p
> a
> c
> e
>
> I noticed that the library is open during the summer months. The
> borrower page of QTA has Diggory, Johnson, MacMillian and Boot
> borrowing the book during July and August.
>
> I wonder if the rest of the school is open too. It would make sense
> that those who failed a class or who missed too many classes, like
> Justin Fletchley-Finch, would be able to make up those courses
during
> the summer months.
>
> :-)Milz

I didn't notice this, but if summerschool is in session, then why
couldn't Riddle, or Harry stay over the summer?

Rena



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 09:31:26 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 04:31:26 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Summer School? QTA spoiler
Message-ID: <4d.9745ae1.27f45aee@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15484



> QTA Spoiler
>
> s
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
> s
> p
> a
> c
> e
>
> I noticed that the library is open during the summer months. The
> borrower page of QTA has Diggory, Johnson, MacMillian and Boot
> borrowing the book during July and August.
>
> I wonder if the rest of the school is open too. It would make sense
> that those who failed a class or who missed too many classes, like
> Justin Fletchley-Finch, would be able to make up those courses
during
> the summer months.
>
> :-)Milz

I didn't notice this, but if summerschool is in session, then why
couldn't Riddle, or Harry stay over the summer?


 
       Exactly, Good question. I think that this was probably a typo in QTTA, 
but remember also that the dates in the cover were RETURN dates.. they could 
have checked them out toward the end of the year, and then had the standard 2 
months or whatever to return them.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Mar 29 09:38:20 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:38:20 -0000
Subject: Summer School? QTA spoiler
In-Reply-To: <036b01c0b831$98c305c0$ca561c3f@rena>
Message-ID: <99uvqc+sj9s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15485

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Rena" <fmu30c at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > QTA Spoiler
> >
> > I noticed that the library is open during the summer months. The
> > borrower page of QTA has Diggory, Johnson, MacMillian and Boot
> > borrowing the book during July and August.
> >
> > I wonder if the rest of the school is open too. It would make 
sense
> > that those who failed a class or who missed too many classes, like
> > Justin Fletchley-Finch, would be able to make up those courses
> during
> > the summer months.
> >
> > :-)Milz
> 
> I didn't notice this, but if summerschool is in session, then why
> couldn't Riddle, or Harry stay over the summer?
> 
> Rena
> 
IMO school is closed over summer, or it would have been mentioned,  
that you could stay.

But if QTA does indicate summerschool, there are reasons for Harry or 
Riddle having to go home:

1) When Riddle wanted to stay there had been killings of mudbloods 
(and Riddle was one). It was discussed if Hogwarts was to be clodes 
completly, so the wouldn't allow summer lessons
( Riddle's Headmaster talked about an exception when Riddle asked to 
stay. This means Students usually never stay at Hogwarts during summer 
IMHO)

2) Harry is only safe in Hogwarts when Dumbledore s there, and we 
don't know where he spends his holidays :) 

Mecki 
_________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Mar 29 09:46:17 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:46:17 -0000
Subject: Summer School? QTA spoiler
In-Reply-To: <4d.9745ae1.27f45aee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99v099+o0rs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15486

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> 
> 
> > QTA Spoiler
>
> > I noticed that the library is open during the summer months. The
> > borrower page of QTA has Diggory, Johnson, MacMillian and Boot
> > borrowing the book during July and August.
> >
> > I wonder if the rest of the school is open too...
>
>
> I didn't notice this, but if summerschool is in session, then why
> couldn't Riddle, or Harry stay over the summer?
> 
> 
>        Exactly, Good question. I think that this was probably a typo 
in QTTA, 
> but remember also that the dates in the cover were RETURN dates.. 
they could 
> have checked them out toward the end of the year, and then had the 
standard 2 
> months or whatever to return them.
> 
A couple more Question though: Why would Mrs. Pince date a book due to 
return on a  day Hogwarts was closed? And how can Pupils get to the 
Libaray if hogwarts was closed.
So I think you're right: It was probably a mistake ;)

Mecki
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 09:50:57 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 04:50:57 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Summer School? QTA spoiler
Message-ID: <33.12b77c43.27f45f81@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15487

In a message dated 3/29/01 1:47:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
meckelburg at foni.net writes:


> > 
> A couple more Question though: Why would Mrs. Pince date a book due to 
> return on a  day Hogwarts was closed? And how can Pupils get to the 
> Libaray if hogwarts was closed.
> So I think you're right: It was probably a mistake ;)
> 
> Mecki
> 

Maybe Hogwarts books apperate back when they're due? They scream and attack 
people.. maybe the library even controls them with some type of summoning 
charm.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 29 09:56:01 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:56:01 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Hermione & Ginny, Hermione & the Boys
In-Reply-To: <99sa1u+f8v6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99v0rh+imbc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15488

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:

> Especially considering that his feelings for Cho are basically an 
> adolescent crush that will go nowhere (sorry, H/C shippers) due to 
> Cedric's death and various other factors. (And JKR did say everyone 
> would fall for the wrong people in Book 4. *cough* Ron *cough*). 

You should indeed cough here! The "wrong person" Ron falls for in GoF 
is Fleur, not Hermione. 

Naama




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 09:54:35 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 01:54:35 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Summer School? QTA spoiler
References: <99v099+o0rs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <047701c0b836$43f75000$ca561c3f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 15489


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> >
> >
> > > QTA Spoiler
> >
> > > I noticed that the library is open during the summer months. The
> > > borrower page of QTA has Diggory, Johnson, MacMillian and Boot
> > > borrowing the book during July and August.
> > >
> > > I wonder if the rest of the school is open too...
> >
> >
> > I didn't notice this, but if summerschool is in session, then why
> > couldn't Riddle, or Harry stay over the summer?
> >
> >
> >        Exactly, Good question. I think that this was probably a
typo
> in QTTA,
> > but remember also that the dates in the cover were RETURN dates..
> they could
> > have checked them out toward the end of the year, and then had the
> standard 2
> > months or whatever to return them.
> >
> A couple more Question though: Why would Mrs. Pince date a book due
to
> return on a  day Hogwarts was closed? And how can Pupils get to the
> Libaray if hogwarts was closed.
> So I think you're right: It was probably a mistake ;)
>
Only other way of getting the books around is by owl. Maybe the
library will send books out over the summer if the students sign up
for them?

Rena



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Mar 29 11:23:00 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:23:00 -0000
Subject: Books burnt in Germany too!!
Message-ID: <99v5uk+hk8q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15490

Just a couple of hours after the last message of burning HP-books in 
Britain I have just found a german article to where a whole region 
shares the Anti-HP-Hystria. The books were burnt by the local 
Church-Youth-Group ( Of course the officials deny responsility) and 
the books are forbidden to be taken from the library. 
I just can't believe it and the bad feeling in my stomach increases 
from article to article

Mecki 




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Mar 29 11:26:31 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:26:31 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks
Message-ID: <99v657+6os4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15491

Hi all--

I've been trying for days to get caught up, and can't seem to get any 
closer than three digests behind.  So, if I'm repeating someone 
else's thoughts or post, my apologies.

Back in the middle of September 2000, someone made a cross-post from 
hpslash.  This post contained info that an HP fan learned of from JKR 
at the Edinburgh Book Festival.  I don't know when the festival 
occurred, but I'm speculating that it happened before GoF came out, 
because apparently the question of 'is Mrs. Figg Arabella Figg?' 
hadn't come about yet.  JKR stated that Mrs. Figg IS a squib.  (Other 
info in that post was that Godric's Hollow will be important, the 
fact that Harry has Lily's eyes will be important, and that JKR 
warned to 'keep an eye on Snape'.  None of that seems very revelatory 
so many months later though, does it?)  In one of the online chats 
from October, JKR was asked what the deal with all the cats was, and 
this person listed Crookshanks, all Mrs. Figg's cats, Mrs. Norris, 
and so on.  JKR said that they would also figure importantly (or at 
least that there was something to the 'all the cats' thought), but 
that she couldn't really say anything about it.  Given that now we 
have learned of Kneazles, my first thought was of course, that 
Crookshanks is at least part Kneazle.  My next thought when the Mrs. 
Figg thread came up was that Crooks may perhaps be from a litter of 
one of Mrs. F's cats.  Maybe all her cats are Kneazle or part.  Maybe 
she breeds them.  My FB is loaned out, so I can't refer back to the 
description, but if Mrs. F is there to keep an eye on Harry, which is 
what I think, then an army of Kneazle-cats with their ability to 
spot 'unsavoury characters' seems quite helpful.  And, regarding Mrs. 
Figg, I can't see that there's any way that Vernon might know she's 
part of the magical community.  As desperate as he is in SS to keep 
Harry from learning the truth about everything, there's no way that 
he would leave Harry in the care of 'one of them' knowingly.  Lastly, 
as a side note about the future female DADA prof, JKR just confirmed 
that there would be one, not any word on what book she'd be in...

Kelley





From tobeybickle at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 11:37:00 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 06:37:00 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks
Message-ID: <70.911d48c.27f4785c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15492



> Hi all--
> 
> I've been trying for days to get caught up, and can't seem to get any 
> closer than three digests behind.  So, if I'm repeating someone 
> else's thoughts or post, my apologies.
> 
> Back in the middle of September 2000, someone made a cross-post from 
> hpslash.  This post contained info that an HP fan learned of from JKR 
> at the Edinburgh Book Festival.  I don't know when the festival 
> occurred, but I'm speculating that it happened before GoF came out, 
> because apparently the question of 'is Mrs. Figg Arabella Figg?' 
> hadn't come about yet.  JKR stated that Mrs. Figg IS a squib.  (Other 
> info in that post was that Godric's Hollow will be important, the 
> fact that Harry has Lily's eyes will be important, and that JKR 
> warned to 'keep an eye on Snape'.  None of that seems very revelatory 
> so many months later though, does it?)  In one of the online chats 
> from October, JKR was asked what the deal with all the cats was, and 
> this person listed Crookshanks, all Mrs. Figg's cats, Mrs. Norris, 
> and so on.  JKR said that they would also figure importantly (or at 
> least that there was something to the 'all the cats' thought), but 
> that she couldn't really say anything about it.  Given that now we 
> have learned of Kneazles, my first thought was of course, that 
> Crookshanks is at least part Kneazle.  My next thought when the Mrs. 
> Figg thread came up was that Crooks may perhaps be from a litter of 
> one of Mrs. F's cats.  Maybe all her cats are Kneazle or part.  Maybe 
> she breeds them.  My FB is loaned out, so I can't refer back to the 
> description, but if Mrs. F is there to keep an eye on Harry, which is 
> what I think, then an army of Kneazle-cats with their ability to 
> spot 'unsavoury characters' seems quite helpful.  And, regarding Mrs. 
> Figg, I can't see that there's any way that Vernon might know she's 
> part of the magical community.  As desperate as he is in SS to keep 
> Harry from learning the truth about everything, there's no way that 
> he would leave Harry in the care of 'one of them' knowingly.  Lastly, 
> as a side note about the future female DADA prof, JKR just confirmed 
> that there would be one, not any word on what book she'd be in...
> 
> Kelley
> 

Part Kneazle.. I think that's brilliant. The other thing I noticed in the 
book was that there were a half dozen types of snakes, and they all have 
interesting abilities.. I don't know why, but I think we're going to see an 
Ashwinder in the next book. It just seemes like JKR had it's story planned 
out in a bit too much detail, and it's power for making love potions is just 
too interesting.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 11:39:31 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 06:39:31 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Books burnt in Germany too!!
Message-ID: <6d.117d7535.27f478f3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15493



> Just a couple of hours after the last message of burning HP-books in 
> Britain I have just found a german article to where a whole region 
> shares the Anti-HP-Hystria. The books were burnt by the local 
> Church-Youth-Group ( Of course the officials deny responsility) and 
> the books are forbidden to be taken from the library. 
> I just can't believe it and the bad feeling in my stomach increases 
> from article to article
> 
> Mecki 
> 
> 
> 
The two things I can stand less than anything are people who don't just have 
a dumb opinion, but rather are flat-out wrong, and people who seem to take 
pride in their own ignorance, and act like their willful lack of knowledge is 
some type of value system. These book burning folk manage to fit into both 
catagories at the same time. My stomach ache is getting worse..



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Mar 29 11:48:36 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:48:36 -0000
Subject: Books burnt in Germany too!!
In-Reply-To: <6d.117d7535.27f478f3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99v7ek+ti83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15494

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> 
> 
> > Just a couple of hours after the last message of burning HP-books 
in 
> > Britain I have just found a german article to where a whole 
region 
> > shares the Anti-HP-Hystria. The books were burnt by the local 
> > Church-Youth-Group ( Of course the officials deny responsility) 
and 
> > the books are forbidden to be taken from the library. 
> > I just can't believe it and the bad feeling in my stomach 
increases 
> > from article to article
> > 
> > Mecki 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> The two things I can stand less than anything are people who don't 
just have 
> a dumb opinion, but rather are flat-out wrong, and people who seem 
to take 
> pride in their own ignorance, and act like their willful lack of 
knowledge is 
> some type of value system. These book burning folk manage to fit 
into both 
> catagories at the same time. My stomach ache is getting worse..

 I haven't heard of any book burning in the UK yet, but the whole 
debate of HP has come up.  I have a very close friend who is a born 
again Christian (which we never discuss anymore because it causes too 
many arguments), and the official line from her church is also anti-
Potter.  I don't understand it.  HP is allegorical in a similar way 
to CS Lewis's.  They may not be fundamentally Christian in 
perspective, but they cover the same issues of good/evil, 
right/wrong, and I would go further and say that perhaps they cover 
the grey areas in a much more realistic way.   Perhaps if JKR taught 
theology at a dusty old Oxford (or was it Cambridge?) College, then 
her work would be viewed differently. 

My friend's husband works in a Christian bookshop, which sells CS 
Lewis, and other allegorical fairytales.  It makes me  so sad that so 
many people are jumping on a bandwagon without having the gumption to 
pick up the books for themselves.  Do they think that they are going 
to be corrupted by them?

Catherine
PS. My friend doesn't believe evolution or that dinosaurs existed 
either - church doctrine again.  Why???!




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 11:56:41 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 06:56:41 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Books burnt in Germany too!!
Message-ID: <a0.121f158d.27f47cf9@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15495

In a message dated 3/29/01 3:50:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk writes:


> My friend's husband works in a Christian bookshop, which sells CS 
> Lewis, and other allegorical fairytales.  It makes me  so sad that so 
> many people are jumping on a bandwagon without having the gumption to 
> pick up the books for themselves.  Do they think that they are going 
> to be corrupted by them?
> 
> Catherine
> PS. My friend doesn't believe evolution or that dinosaurs existed 
> either - church doctrine again.  Why???!
> 

I think Tolkien is a better example. The man was a hard-core Catholic, and he 
viewed his books as entirely moral, and yet they're full of  witchcraft and 
stark depections of evil. But there are two issues here.. 1) In order to show 
the value of good, you must be honest about evil and 2) depicting something 
is a lot different than condoning it.

As for not believing in Dinosaurs.. that's just mind-blowing.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Mar 29 11:59:50 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:59:50 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <70.911d48c.27f4785c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99v83m+h1a7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15496

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> 
> Part Kneazle.. I think that's brilliant. The other thing I noticed 
in the 
> book was that there were a half dozen types of snakes, and they all 
have 
> interesting abilities.. I don't know why, but I think we're going to 
see an 
> Ashwinder in the next book. It just seemes like JKR had it's story 
planned 
> out in a bit too much detail, and it's power for making love potions 
is just 
> too interesting.
> 
I just looked into FB and compared it with the description of 
Crookshanks in PoA. His fur is not fleck , spotted etc. and he doesn't 
have anlion-like tail either, so it will never be a pure Kneazle. I'm 
wondering which magical powers are lefter when Kneazles are interbred 
with cats? Crookshanks flat face doesn't fit into the description 
either !
( I don't have an english PoA -version, so please correct me if the 
german publishers goofed again. I'll positivly kill them this time!;)

Mecki 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Thu Mar 29 12:33:04 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 04:33:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Question about Abbreviations
Message-ID: <20010329123304.1FBD73ED3@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15497

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URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20010329/4e55cb33/attachment.ksh>

From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Mar 29 12:41:20 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:41:20 -0000
Subject: Question about Abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <20010329123304.1FBD73ED3@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <99vahg+30ap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15498

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chained By Freedom <screamingsilence at g...> 
wrote:
> Hi,
> I've only been on this list a day, and while I find the discussions 
very thought provoking and interesting, there are a few things that 
confuse me. Mainly mentions of things and abbreviations I don't know 
the meaning of. The ones that come to my mind are:
> QTA
> canon
> IMO
> And such other things like that. Could anyone possibly fill me in? 
Thanks so much!
> ~Echo
> AIM: CagedByFreedom
> 
I'm only on this list since mnoday but I fonund most (not all) of 
these in Files. there is a file about shorthands there. 

mecki
__________________________________________________________
> Get your free mail --> http://www.gundamwing.org
> Comprehensive GW info, official info, galleries, translations,
> doujinshi, fanfics, multimedia, music and much much more!




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 29 12:46:55 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 06:46:55 -0600
Subject: SHIP: Ron's "wrong" person
References: <99v0rh+imbc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC32EBF.4595E551@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15499

Hi --

naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
>
> > Especially considering that his feelings for Cho are basically an
> > adolescent crush that will go nowhere (sorry, H/C shippers) due to
> > Cedric's death and various other factors. (And JKR did say everyone
> > would fall for the wrong people in Book 4. *cough* Ron *cough*).
>
> Naama: You should indeed cough here! The "wrong person" Ron falls for
> in GoF is Fleur, not Hermione.

Oh?  There's at least a colorable argument that he fell for Hermione.
After all, the R/H shippers cite a long trend of evidence that starts
back at CoS indicating Ron's interest in Hermione.  Ron is susceptible
to Fleur's veela charms, but I'm not sure if a veela-induced crazy
moment where he invites her to the Yule Ball qualifies as "falling" for
her.  But, there've been lots of posts "reminding" us H/H shippers how
silly we're being.  Ron *clearly* fell for Hermione in GoF, don't 'cha
know.  Hmmmm.......

I'm mainly just kidding on this point btw.  But, it is what a lawyer
would call a straight-face argument nonetheless.

Penny
(who wants the Potential Romance Pairings FAQ posted ASAP so everyone
will know that the H/H types do recognize that Ron likes Hermione)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 29 13:06:13 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 07:06:13 -0600
Subject: Harry getting Killed; Books as "Childrens' Books"
References: <99ura2+106ho@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC33345.E36D0883@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15500

Hi --

To Doreen -- JKR hasn't, to my knowledge, ever used the word "never"
with respect to killing off Ron.  She's just said that she won't divulge
details about the fate of the main characters, especially our favorite
Trio.

meckelburg at foni.net wrote:

> Another reason is, that, even if we enjoy the canon so much as
> adults, the books are "children's books". JKR wants to show children
> the fight between good and evil and good has to win. To sacrifice
> Harry on this battle would be very disturbing to the 9 to 13year old
> kids, who are the avarage-aged Readers.

The books are *not* "children's books"!  JKR has said repeatedly that
she had no target audience; the publishers *marketed* them to 9-12 yr
olds because Harry was 11 in Book 1.  Harry will be 17/18 in the last
book.  Is that really a "childrens' book" if your main characters are
all adults?  Is GoF really a childrens' book appropriate for all 9 year
olds?

Heidi posted a demographic study result a few weeks ago that indicates
that a majority of the HP books sold in 2000 were sold to people over
the age of 14.

I posted two very detailed messages in this regard this past weekend --
See Message #15132 and Message #15201.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 29 13:16:10 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 07:16:10 -0600
Subject: Question about Abbreviations
References: <20010329123304.1FBD73ED3@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <3AC3359A.89B7EFE6@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15501

Hi --

Chained By Freedom wrote:

> I've only been on this list a day, and while I find the discussions
> very thought provoking and interesting, there are a few things that
> confuse me. Mainly mentions of things and abbreviations I don't know
> the meaning of. The ones that come to my mind are: QTA canon IMO And
> such other things like that. Could anyone possibly fill me in? Thanks
> so much!
> ~Echo

Ahem!  Did you read your Welcome Message from the group?  :--)

Newbies:  Please read the following Files over in our Files area (the
first link below is the one most pertinent to your question Echo, but
please read them all):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-shorthand.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPfGU-Announcements.txt

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPfGU-OTChatter.txt

Thanks,

Penny
The Mod Squad




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 29 13:36:27 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 07:36:27 -0600
Subject: ADMIN: Reminder re: News Links
Message-ID: <3AC33A5B.75C32BEA@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15502

Hi everyone --

A friendly ADMIN reminder for the morning -- <g>

1.  Please post links to all news articles to the Announcements group.

2.  For copyright reasons, do not cut & paste entire news articles into
a message (either to the main group or to Announcements).

3.  Comments on news articles can be made to the main group if they are
substantive & on-topic.  If your comments are off-topic, please post
them on OT-Chatter.

Example: "That article about book-burning really made me mad."  This
belongs on OT-Chatter.

Penny
The Moderator Group (looking to reduce message traffic ....)




From bbennett at joymail.com  Thu Mar 29 13:37:24 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:37:24 -0000
Subject: SHIP: Ron's "wrong" person
In-Reply-To: <3AC32EBF.4595E551@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99vdqk+3192@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15503

Cassie wrote:
> Especially considering that his feelings for Cho are basically an 
adolescent crush that will go nowhere (sorry, H/C shippers) due to
Cedric's death and various other factors. (And JKR did say everyone
would fall for the wrong people in Book 4. *cough* Ron *cough*).>

Am I remembering wrong? I thought JKR said this specifically in 
relation to Harry (something like "People tend not to fall for people 
who might be good for them; therfore, Harry will not fall for Ginny 
or for Hermione"). I tried to track back through the chats at 
HPGalleries; I couldn't find it, but here's one H/Hrs & G/Hrs should 
like:

Q: Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he 
going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley?

A: In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not 
Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time 
for him to change his mind. ;-) 

>Naama: You should indeed cough here! The "wrong person" Ron falls for
in GoF is Fleur, not Hermione.>

Penny:
> Oh?  There's at least a colorable argument that he fell for 
Hermione. After all, the R/H shippers cite a long trend of evidence 
that starts back at CoS indicating Ron's interest in Hermione.  Ron 
is susceptible to Fleur's veela charms, but I'm not sure if a veela-
induced crazy moment where he invites her to the Yule Ball qualifies 
as "falling" for her. >

I agree with Penny. Just because your eyeballs pop out of your head 
at the sight of someone doesn't mean you've fallen for them. It seems 
to me that even Ron recognizes in GoF that he just can't control 
himself around Fleur, but that doesn't mean he's fallen for her. 
But...

Penny wrote:
> But, there've been lots of posts "reminding" us H/H shippers how
> silly we're being.  Ron *clearly* fell for Hermione in GoF, 
>don't 'cha know.  Hmmmm.......

Penny, I promise I've never doubted most H/Hrs know this, and I think 
I speak for most R/Hrs. I posted on this in the past, but only in an 
attempt to sway someone who stated she saw no evidence of Ron's 
attraction. But I think maybe when Naama says "falls for", she 
means "consciously shows an attraction for". Ron seems to acknowledge 
an attraction for Fleur (or at least be really, really embarrassed he 
asked her to the ball); he doesn't consciously acknowledge that he 
likes Hermione. 

I hope everyone has a good day. I have a deadline, and if I get out 
of here by midnight, I'm going to be delighted :b
B




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 14:08:08 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 16:08:08 +0200
Subject: Mrs. Figg and the Kneazle Brigade
References: <99v657+6os4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013b01c0b859$b0b29e70$1472023e@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 15504

> My FB is loaned out, so I can't refer back to the
> description, but if Mrs. F is there to keep an eye on Harry, which is
> what I think, then an army of Kneazle-cats with their ability to
> spot 'unsavoury characters' seems quite helpful.

Hmm. I like that idea (and I'm sure Rita will like it even better!) A team
of carefully trained attack Kneazles on 24 hour prowl duty might be part of
what kept the Dursley's house a Death-Eater-free zone over the years.

But there must have been more to it, though. It'd be hard to characterize a
bunch of slinking Kneazles as ancient magic Dumbledore invoked "to ensure
the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care." And besides:
all Voldy would have had to do to get past them is sneak up with a
wheelbarrow full of catnip ...

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising
inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers,
but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high."

And, regarding Mrs.
> Figg, I can't see that there's any way that Vernon might know she's
> part of the magical community.  As desperate as he is in SS to keep
> Harry from learning the truth about everything, there's no way that
> he would leave Harry in the care of 'one of them' knowingly.  Lastly,
> as a side note about the future female DADA prof, JKR just confirmed
> that there would be one, not any word on what book she'd be in...
>
> Kelley
>
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 29 14:19:55 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:19:55 -0000
Subject: SHIP Cho, H/G
Message-ID: <99vgab+qo07@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15505

Catherine wrote re: Hermione:

>And I still stick to the fact that she shows absolutely no concern 
>over the possibility of Cho/Harry (if she knew about it - I can't 
>find a mention)

As far as we know she doesn't know.  Ron seems to, though there's no 
mention of Harry telling anyone at all.  (The crush starts in PoA, 
BTW).

>kimberly
>quite possibly the lone crewmember of the H/G

Gosh, Kimberly, your post sounded so forlorn that I wanted to join 
your ship just to cheer you up.  But don't be discouraged by the lack 
of evidence.  It hasn't stopped the McGonagall is Hermione's Mentor 
crowd *ducks*.  (Oh hell, who am I to throw stones?  I'm still holding 
out for Harry/Draco!)

Jim: love your Ginny affirmation!  (Do ships have cheerleading 
squads?)  And even though I'm not an H/Ger, I give a big "me too" to 
Carole on her supposed quietness and the unfair generalizations from 
quietness.  Cassie, "boring wimp" is definitely a harsh judgment on 
someone who you then go on to say we don't know well enough to judge.

Paula wrote:

>As for the H/G Ship, we do live on hope, but I totally see it being 
fulfilled
>one day.  I just don't see it as a coincidence that Ginny and Lily's
>haircolor is red, something's gotta be hidden in that.

Harry has to fall in love with a Weasley because his mother had red 
hair?  Well, there are 9 of them, 7 unmarried.  Maybe he'll go for 
Charlie--they have that dragon thing going for them.

On the other hand, I have red hair, so it's quite an exciting prospect 
for me.  All I have to do is Apparate over to Harry (anyone know where 
he's living nowadays?) and he'll fall head over heels.  Do y'all think 
32 is too old for 20?  Mmmm . . . I was afraid you'd say that.

Penny wrote:

>Amy Z made some good points, but I do feel I know more about Bill 
than Ginny.

Thanks.  Flattery will not release you from having to give evidence . 
. . though having 2 weeks 'til delivery might.  I would really like to 
know what you think we know about Bill.  Seems friendly; like Molly, 
unhesitatingly supports Dumbledore and jumps into the fray; breaks 
curses for a living, wears unstodgy clothing; was a good student; what 
else?

One more on H/G--Heidi wrote:

>I think it would *ruin* Harry's relationship with Molly, and to a
>lesser level, Arthur (although this relationship isn't as vital to
>harry as long as sirius is alive) if he started dating Ginny, and it
>would be worse if they were to marry.

I agree that Harry is already, and will stay, a member of the Weasley 
family without dating or marrying any Weasleys, but I don't agree that 
dating Ginny would ruin his relationship with Molly and Arthur.  He 
wouldn't go to them for advice about her (he could go to Sirius), but 
otherwise their surrogate mom/dad status would be unchanged, or even 
intensify.  I used to go out with a man I'd been friends with for 
years, and his mom was a real mom-type to me before we got together 
and then right on through the romance.  It was very nice.  

If Harry stomped on Ginny's heart, that might well damage his 
relationship with A & M, but Sweet Harry wouldn't do such a thing, now 
would he?

The expanding-family thing goes for anyone, of course.  The Weasley 
family will warmly take in just about anyone who gets involved with 
the kids.  (Draco might be pushing it.)

Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
 "We could all have been killed--or worse, expelled."
                   -HP and the Philosopher's Stone 
------------------------------------------------------




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 29 14:27:51 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:27:51 -0000
Subject: New elements - filk - R & HG's judgment
Message-ID: <99vgp7+e00e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15506

Stacy wrote:

>While I agree with most of your observations -- that most of the 
>things just come up when they come up and that it makes the books 
>more interesting -- I think that "Death Eaters" has a very specific 
>reason for not being brought up as early as PS/SS: it's too dark. 

Very true.  I'd say the same for Dementors--we know in CoS that 
Azkaban is a nasty place, but clearly, JKR doesn't want to go into 
details yet.  The PoA narration is also quite cagey about them until 
the actual scene on the train--they're just referred to as the Azkaban 
guards.  She builds up to the full horror.

Margaret wrote:

>Remember how Sirius Black is actually
>=mentioned= in PS/SS Chapter One, before we have the least
>inkling that he's going to be a pivotal character in Book Three? 

Here's a question:  who here remembered that name when they got to the 
first PoA mention of Sirius Black?  I don't think I made the 
connection until Hagrid told his part of the story in "The Marauder's 
Map," many chapters later.  When I read Book 5 I'm going to make 
notations of my current theories on stickies as I go.  I can never 
remember afterwards what my speculations were when, and it'll be 
interesting to see what red herrings I swallow and what real clues 
pass me by entirely.

>The Dark Lord's in Disarray (filk)

LOL!  Oh, my.  The image of Cornelius Fudge in fishnets and mascara'd 
eyelashes (he already has the bowler) may give me nightmares.

Demelza wrote:

<lots of good stuff on Ron's judgment vs. Hermione's.>  However, I'll 
disagree with a couple of points:

>However, Trelawney WAS correct about Lavander Brown's dreaded thing,

Hermione may have been insensitive to Lavender, but she was right:  
Lavender wasn't dreading anything happening to her rabbit.  I really 
think JKR is making fun of the kind of vague predictions that can fit 
almost anything, and the people who will twist the events in their 
lives to fit the predictions.

>Hermione's assessment of the Ron-Harry feud (GoF Chs.17-20) has 
>always puzzled me. Hermione assesses that Ron is jealous of Harry. 
>Yet, as readers, we are privy to the break-up (GoF Ch. 20).

Yes, we are privy to it, and I agree with Hermione--it is about 
jealousy.  It's about trust, as you say, but the question is =why= Ron 
doesn't trust Harry on this.  Harry says very plainly and repeatedly 
that he didn't put his name in; and (speaking of their respective 
skills as judges of character) his expression when his name comes out 
made it abundantly clear to =one= of his best friends that far from 
being happy, he was stunned and upset.  Furthermore, we readers, being 
privy to Harry's thoughts, know that Harry is telling the truth and 
that Ron's mistrust is completely baseless.  So what is going on with 
Ron that he won't believe what Harry says?  Hermione hit it on the 
head:  he's jealous.  We aren't likely to get it spelled out for us by 
Ron, because it's not the kind of thing someone usually admits, though 
they may give it away by saying something like, oh, say, "You'd better 
get to bed.  You probably have a photo call tomorrow."  Ron may not 
even realize himself that jealousy is what's burning him up.  It just 
warps his judgment so that he suspects Harry of doing things that 
wouldn't have worked (using the Cloak) and that he wouldn't have done 
(using the Cloak without inviting Ron to use it too).  And so that he 
can't see that the thing he is jealous about is something Harry 
desperately wishes he didn't have.

>Here's another: Dumbledore. (GoF Ch 27) Hermione, Ron and Harry are 
discussing Snape. 
>Hermione states that Dumbledore trusts him with the implication that 
>Dumbledore's judgement can't be flawed. Ron, however, thinks 
>otherwise: "I know Dumbledore's brilliant and everything, but that 
>doesn't mean a really clever Dark wizard couldn't fool him--". Ron is 
>correct. Dumbledore IS fooled by a "really clever Dark wizard" from 
>the first day of school to the finish of the Triwizard Tournament, 
>nearly an entire school year.

Very good point, but look back at Hermione's statement:  it's as right 
about Snape as Ron's is about "a really clever Dark wizard," assuming 
(dangerous assumption, I know) that Snape really is trustworthy.  
Hermione is overestimating Dumbledore's omniscience, but Ron is 
wrongly doubting Dumbledore's judgment re: Snape.  Or so things stand 
at the end of GoF . . . we shall see.

>The difference, IMO, between Ron's and Hermione's judgment is that 
>Hermione has a pattern of thinking "black and white". 

Again, good point re: Trelawney, but I think it's unfair as a global 
statement.  Her judgment of Snape is a case in point; from the very 
beginning of the books she was more able than Ron (or Harry) to 
imagine that Snape can be a thoroughly nasty guy without actually 
being murderous.  In GoF, Ron is still unwilling to make the 
distinction.

She proves to be wrong about Crookshanks--he =is= out to get 
Scabbers--but I think this is less a case of believing no evil of her 
own cat than putting his behavior down to normal cat behavior.  She 
doesn't say he isn't chasing Scabbers; she just says it's because he's 
a cat and Scabbers is a rat.  She's wrong, of course, but she's not as 
blind as you're making her out to be.

Amy Z

-----------------------------------------------
 Harry remembered how touchy Myrtle had always 
 been about being dead, but none of the other 
 ghosts he knew made such a fuss about it.
                  -HP and the Goblet of Fire
-----------------------------------------------




From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Mar 29 14:53:12 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:53:12 -0000
Subject: New elements - filk - R & HG's judgment
In-Reply-To: <99vgp7+e00e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99vi8o+g2ao@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15507

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Stacy wrote:
> 
> >While I agree with most of your observations -- that most of the 
> >things just come up when they come up and that it makes the books 
> >more interesting -- I think that "Death Eaters" has a very specific 
> >reason for not being brought up as early as PS/SS: it's too dark. 
> 
> Very true.  I'd say the same for Dementors--we know in CoS that 
> Azkaban is a nasty place, but clearly, JKR doesn't want to go into 
> details yet.  The PoA narration is also quite cagey about them until 
> the actual scene on the train--they're just referred to as the 
Azkaban 
> guards.  She builds up to the full horror.
>
Have you noticed that in quite a few occasions the wizard hospital was 
mentioned? Same thing with the Longbottoms. in the first book we just 
know Neville is brougt up by his Grandmother, but we don't know why 
till GoF. So IMHO we'll probably have some contact to both the 
Longbottoms and to the Hoptial in the next books;) And the way the 
theme Longbottom is growing, it will probably be something BIG too
(I hope this Story isn't too old, I'm still qiute new)

Mecki

> Margaret wrote:
> 
> >Remember how Sirius Black is actually
> >=mentioned= in PS/SS Chapter One, before we have the least
> >inkling that he's going to be a pivotal character in Book Three?... 
> 

>
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
>  Harry remembered how touchy Myrtle had always 
>  been about being dead, but none of the other 
>  ghosts he knew made such a fuss about it.
>                   -HP and the Goblet of Fire
> -----------------------------------------------




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Thu Mar 29 09:50:12 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:50:12 EST5EDT
Subject: Burn, Harry, burn....Disco inferno.....
Message-ID: <3F979F241D@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15508

>The reason why? "There is one God and he has set his standards 
>through the
>Commandments, and Jesus Christ is our lord and savior. Things 
>that
>misrepresent or cause us to pull away from him, we should 
>cleanse from our
>lives," he said. 

Hmmmm....I'm a Christian but I wonder where he got HIS Ten 
Commandments because MY Ten Commandments never said 
"Thou shall not read fantasy fiction or listen to Springsteen 
because doing either will pull you away from God."

*rolling eyes*  Whatever...I'm just pleased in the knowledge that 
MY minister bought the books to keep at his house for his 
grandchildren.  Go Protestants!  :-)

You know, I wish Bloom County was still going on.  Milo and Opus 
would have had a FIELD day with all this.  :-)

By the way, did anyone else find it odd that the squid didn't show 
up during the lake competition?  I was reading it last night and was 
just curious that no one saw him wiggle by while down there.


Rachel Bray
74% obsessed with Harry Potter (is that good or bad?)

"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, stick your head
in, yell at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked,
and see if they chuck it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 - Ron Weasley



From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Mar 29 14:58:36 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:58:36 -0000
Subject: How many students at Hogwarts?
Message-ID: <99viis+5hfi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15509

Here is another Question you have probably discussed in length before, 
but I just have to know:

JKR said there were about 1000 students at Hogwarts.
With 7 Years, and 4 Houses each Year, that means Harry must have about 
35 Classmates in Griffindor.!

Why are there only 5 Boys in the Boys-class-dormitory? We only know of 
about 3 or 4 girls, so I miss abouit 25 children. Can you help me find 
them?;)

Mecki




From bbennett at joymail.com  Thu Mar 29 15:15:39 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:15:39 -0000
Subject: How many students at Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <99viis+5hfi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99vjir+ubig@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15510

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> Here is another Question you have probably discussed in length 
before, but I just have to know:

Hi there,

This was just discussed recently. If you do a search on the archives, 
you should be able to find loads of posts.

Regards,
B






From inyron at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 15:31:54 2001
From: inyron at yahoo.com (inyron at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:31:54 -0000
Subject: Harry getting Killed; Books as "Childrens' Books"
In-Reply-To: <3AC33345.E36D0883@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <99vkha+iv54@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15511

> meckelburg at f... wrote:
> 
> > Another reason is, that, even if we enjoy the canon so much as
> > adults, the books are "children's books". JKR wants to show 
children
> > the fight between good and evil and good has to win. To sacrifice
> > Harry on this battle would be very disturbing to the 9 to 13year 
old
> > kids, who are the avarage-aged Readers.
> 
> The books are *not* "children's books"!  JKR has said repeatedly 
that
> she had no target audience; the publishers *marketed* them to 9-12 
yr
> olds because Harry was 11 in Book 1.  Harry will be 17/18 in the 
last
> book.  Is that really a "childrens' book" if your main characters 
are
> all adults?  Is GoF really a childrens' book appropriate for all 9 
year
> olds?
> 
> Heidi posted a demographic study result a few weeks ago that 
indicates
> that a majority of the HP books sold in 2000 were sold to people 
over
> the age of 14.
> 
> I posted two very detailed messages in this regard this past 
weekend --
> See Message #15132 and Message #15201.
> 
> Penny
> 


I agree that the books are not children's books, and JKR said she 
wrote them for herself- BUT.

>From a Barnes&Noble.com chat, OCTOBER 20, 2000
 

Question: Are you going to get more mature themes as your books age, 
or are you going to keep it geared toward younger kids?

JKR: I think an eight- or nine-year-old will be able to read all 
seven books. That's my intention. However, Harry is growing up, so 
obviously he will face certain issues an eight-year-old won't. I 
don't think, however, that that will be uninteresting for an eight-
year-old. 


Was GoF a children's book? No.  Was it appropriate for all nine year 
olds?  THat's debateable, but JKR though it was.  JKR was also a 
little worried on how the children would handle Cedric's death.  I 
think Mecki's point that sacrificing Harry would be too much for nine 
year olds doesn't bear dismissal on these grounds.

inyron

who likes chat transcripts, and is still looking for the one where 
JKR said Mrs. and Arabella Figg are the same person, if someone 
doesn't mind helping her.





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Mar 29 15:51:35 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:51:35 -0000
Subject: Harry getting Killed; Books as "Childrens' Books"
In-Reply-To: <99vkha+iv54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99vlm7+ld61@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15512

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., inyron at y... wrote:
> > meckelburg at f... wrote:
> > 
> > > Another reason is, that, even if we enjoy the canon so much as
> > > adults, the books are "children's books". JKR wants to show 
> children
> > > the fight between good and evil and good has to win. To 
sacrifice
> > > Harry on this battle would be very disturbing to the 9 to 
13year 
> old
> > > kids, who are the avarage-aged Readers.
> > 
> > The books are *not* "children's books"!  JKR has said repeatedly 
> that
> > she had no target audience; the publishers *marketed* them to 9-
12 
> yr
> > olds because Harry was 11 in Book 1.  Harry will be 17/18 in the 
> last
> > book.  Is that really a "childrens' book" if your main characters 
> are
> > all adults?  Is GoF really a childrens' book appropriate for all 
9 
> year
> > olds?
> > 
> > Heidi posted a demographic study result a few weeks ago that 
> indicates
> > that a majority of the HP books sold in 2000 were sold to people 
> over
> > the age of 14.
> > 
> > I posted two very detailed messages in this regard this past 
> weekend --
> > See Message #15132 and Message #15201.
> > 
> > Penny
> > 
> 
> 
> I agree that the books are not children's books, and JKR said she 
> wrote them for herself- BUT.
> 
> From a Barnes&Noble.com chat, OCTOBER 20, 2000
>  
> 
> Question: Are you going to get more mature themes as your books 
age, 
> or are you going to keep it geared toward younger kids?
> 
> JKR: I think an eight- or nine-year-old will be able to read all 
> seven books. That's my intention. However, Harry is growing up, so 
> obviously he will face certain issues an eight-year-old won't. I 
> don't think, however, that that will be uninteresting for an eight-
> year-old. 
> 
> 
> Was GoF a children's book? No.  Was it appropriate for all nine 
year 
> olds?  THat's debateable, but JKR though it was.  JKR was also a 
> little worried on how the children would handle Cedric's death.  I 
> think Mecki's point that sacrificing Harry would be too much for 
nine 
> year olds doesn't bear dismissal on these grounds.
> 
> inyron
> 
> who likes chat transcripts, and is still looking for the one where 
> JKR said Mrs. and Arabella Figg are the same person, if someone 
> doesn't mind helping her.

Two things -  I am pretty sure that its the Blue Peter transcript (in 
the files) where JKR confirms about Mrs Figg.

The point about whether the books are geared towards children seems 
to me to be almost irrelevant.  The fact is that children love them, 
and that JKR has almost singlehandedly revived an interest in the 
written word, in an age of computer games and television, amongst the 
youth of today.  There would therefore be an outcry if the books were 
suddenly deemed unsuitable for the pre teen age group.  I also think 
that JKR is aware of the effect her books have on children.  She 
isn't afraid of addressing the issues she feels are relevant - 
isntead she is gently leading her readers into an increase in darker 
material, and paving the way by helping the reader (at least children)
have a greater understanding of some of the issues and themes with 
which she is continuing (death, racism, prejudice, abuse).
All areas which I feel it is important for children to understand.

Catherine
Who still thinks that one of the most shocking sentences so far 
is "Kill the spare."





From nera at rconnect.com  Thu Mar 29 15:56:00 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:56:00 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR transcript: Arabella Figg
References: <99vkha+iv54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00fd01c0b868$c184f680$2014a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15513


inyron

who likes chat transcripts, and is still looking for the one where
JKR said Mrs. and Arabella Figg are the same person, if someone
doesn't mind helping her.
**********************************
 Is the Mrs. Figg with all the cats in the Dursleys' neighborhood the same
Arabella Figg that Dumbledore mentioned at the end of book 4?
 Well spotted!
http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm

I have many of the interviews with JKR and bios and news articles about her
in one directory... I have read them so many times, trying to find things,
that it is not difficult to go right to some stuff.

Doreen, the Corn Patch Witch







From meckelburg at foni.net  Thu Mar 29 16:22:51 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 16:22:51 -0000
Subject: Harry getting Killed; Books as "Childrens' Books"
In-Reply-To: <99vkha+iv54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99vngr+ll1r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15514

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., inyron at y... wrote:
> > meckelburg at f... wrote:
> > 
> > > Another reason is, that, even if we enjoy the canon so much as
> > > adults, the books are "children's books". JKR wants to show 
> children
> > > the fight between good and evil and good has to win. To 
sacrifice
> > > Harry on this battle would be very disturbing to the 9 to 13year 
> old
> > > kids, who are the avarage-aged Readers.
> > 
> > The books are *not* "children's books"!  JKR has said repeatedly 
> that
> > she had no target audience; the publishers *marketed* them to 9-12 
> yr
> > olds because Harry was 11 in Book 1.  Harry will be 17/18 in the 
> last....
> > 
> > I posted two very detailed messages in this regard this past 
> weekend --
> > See Message #15132 and Message #15201.
> > 
> > Penny
> > 
> 
> 
> I agree that the books are not children's books, and JKR said she 
> wrote them for herself- BUT.
> 
> From a Barnes&Noble.com chat, OCTOBER 20, 2000
>  
> 
> Question: Are you going to get more mature themes as your books age, 
> or are you going to keep it geared toward younger kids?
> 
> JKR: I think an eight- or nine-year-old will be able to read all 
> seven books. That's my intention. However, Harry is growing up, so 
> obviously he will face certain issues an eight-year-old won't. I 
> don't think, however, that that will be uninteresting for an eight-
> year-old. 
> 
> 
> Was GoF a children's book? No.  Was it appropriate for all nine year 
> olds?  THat's debateable, but JKR though it was.  JKR was also a 
> little worried on how the children would handle Cedric's death.  I 
> think Mecki's point that sacrificing Harry would be too much for 
nine 
> year olds doesn't bear dismissal on these grounds.
> 
> inyron
> 
> who likes chat transcripts, and is still looking for the one where 
> JKR said Mrs. and Arabella Figg are the same person, if someone 
> doesn't mind helping her.

Thanks alot for helping me. inyron. I find it difficult to find the 
right words in English sometimes and you have found just the ones I 
was looking for.
In the same Interview JKR said, she had asked her Daughter(7) what she 
thought of Cedric's death and the child answered: It doesn't matter, 
it's not Harry. I think if Harry dies, even as a sacrifice to 
V.'s death, most children would not believe "good" has won this 
battle. And JKR confirmed that the future books can still be read by 
9year old children.Besides, they "live" a story so much, Harry's death 
would be really grieving(is that the right word?) for them.

Thanks to Penny for giving me some mail-numbers I can look this up on.
I read back 40pages when I joined on Monday, but that was not enough.

Mecki




From charlotte_nanterre at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 29 16:31:29 2001
From: charlotte_nanterre at hotmail.com (Charlotte lonc)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:31:29 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many students at Hogwarts?
Message-ID: <F128e4fDGCl9FopYC9800005ed9@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15515

I think there are 280 students at Hogwart:
10 people per class
4 houses
7 years.

I know it's not much, but it seems right to me

Rivire de Lune.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Mar 29 17:31:51 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:31:51 -0000
Subject: Books burnt in Germany too!!
In-Reply-To: <a0.121f158d.27f47cf9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99vri7+15ic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15516

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/29/01 3:50:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> catherine at c... writes:
> 
> 
> > My friend's husband works in a Christian bookshop, which sells CS 
> > Lewis, and other allegorical fairytales.  It makes me  so sad 
that so 
> > many people are jumping on a bandwagon without having the 
gumption to 
> > pick up the books for themselves.  Do they think that they are 
going 
> > to be corrupted by them?

Personally I think they are using the HP books as a scapegoat. People 
want to blame someone/something for the "bad behaviour of young 
people in this world today". Though I have to say, most of the badly 
behaved children I know don't even read HP!

> > Catherine
> > PS. My friend doesn't believe evolution or that dinosaurs existed 
> > either - church doctrine again.  Why???!
> > 

This is from the bible. In Genesis it says that God created the world 
and everything on it on different days. Adam and Eve were created 
from scratch, they didn't evolve. Dinosaurs weren't even mentioned. 
However, now it is widely accepted that the creation story was a way 
of explaining something that could not be understood easily. Same 
goes for Noah's Ark. I am Catholic and I believe in evolution and 
dinosaurs. 

>I think Tolkien is a better example. The man was a hard-core 
Catholic, and he 
> viewed his books as entirely moral, and yet they're full of  
witchcraft and 
> stark depections of evil. 

This shows that not all Christians are the same. From what I 
understand, it is a handful of Christian denominations who have 
publicly denounced HP, many have not mentioned it. Many of the 
younger members of our Church have read and enjoyed HP with their 
parents' approval. 

> But there are two issues here.. 1) In order to show 
> the value of good, you must be honest about evil and 2) depicting 
something 
> is a lot different than condoning it.
> 
I had this very discussion in Religious Studies yesterday! We were 
talking about how there could be no good without evil and vice versa 
as people need comparisons. But I am going OT. 
Many young people (and older ones too, but HP *is* aimed at the 
younger ones!) do not go to church or know about God so they have to 
learn about good and evil in other ways. Books like HP, far from 
convincing everybody to become a witch/wizard help children to 
understand not only the difference between good and evil but also 
many grey areas in between. For example, unjust punishment (Potions 
classes), bullying, fighting, racism (to a certain extent 
with 'Mudblood' and 'Pureblood') and also that sometimes rules should 
be broken if they get in the way of doing good. Not sure if this is a 
good lesson to learn at such a young age or not, but never mind.

Burning books seems like an enormous waste of money and I hope this 
was not done or condoned by any churches or there will be accusations 
of hypocrisy again.

Sarah




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 17:59:40 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:59:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many students at Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <F128e4fDGCl9FopYC9800005ed9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010329175940.92424.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15517

> I think there are 280 students at Hogwart:
> 10 people per class
> 4 houses
> 7 years.
> I know it's not much, but it seems right to me
> Rivire de Lune.


Again, I don't have the book at work but in P0A, during the big
Quidditch match, there's a reference to 200 Slytherins wearing green
sitting in the stands behind their goalposts.  The other
three-quarters of the school were cheering for Gryffindor.  Ergo, 800
students in the school.

And I'm pretty sure I read somewhere JKR saying that there were about
1,000 people at Hogworts.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Thu Mar 29 18:02:53 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:02:53 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
Message-ID: <99vtcd+471a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15518

Hello everyone,

I've been reading this list for a week now and want to say how
pleasant and thoughtful you all are! Great comments and questions!
I appreciate  the subject tags, too, as I am highly allergic to filk 
and fanfic.;)

Peg Kerr's essays are outstanding and I hope she can return to
regular postings. I'll be ordering The Wild Swans soon.

I'm curious about your speculation on the topic of Crouch-Moody as
DADA teacher. I don't have book 4 with me at the moment [it's loaned 
out making another fan], but it seems to me that throughout the school
year Crouch-as-Moody went out of his way to be kind and interested in
Harry during all their interactions [prior to the third task!]. C-as-M
could have ensured Harry won the Triwizard cup without being nice to 
him.It just doesn't make sense to me...Any thoughts on this? or did I
misread?

Secondly, [and this _is_ someone else's idea, but I can't find it or 
any responses] what if Snape's task were to go back to Voldemort as 
Barty Crouch Jr.? Is there any way Lord V could know that Barty has 
been "kissed"? Snape could brew up some Polyjuice Potion, and return
to Lord V as his most faithful lieutenant, rather than his own 
disgraced self..

If these have been discussed in detail please feel free to let me
know, but give me a hint as to what to search for, as I have already 
done some searches without success.

As for the person who said that "kill the spare" was the most
horrific sentence yet--I agree entirely, especially when you think of 
the resonances this must have in the UK, where princes William and 
Harry were regularly known as "the heir and the spare" [this was back 
in the Princess Diana days].

Ivis
[one of those who has seen R/H coming from PS/SS...]





From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Mar 29 18:06:57 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:06:57 -0000
Subject: Summer School? QTA spoiler
In-Reply-To: <4d.9745ae1.27f45aee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99vtk1+7b12@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15519

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> 
> 
> > QTA Spoiler
> >
> > s
> > p
> > o
> > i
> > l
> > e
> > r
> > s
> > p
> > a
> > c
> > e
> >
> > I noticed that the library is open during the summer months. The
> > borrower page of QTA has Diggory, Johnson, MacMillian and Boot
> > borrowing the book during July and August.
> >
> > I wonder if the rest of the school is open too. It would make 
sense
> > that those who failed a class or who missed too many classes, like
> > Justin Fletchley-Finch, would be able to make up those courses
> during
> > the summer months.
> >
> > :-)Milz
> 
> I didn't notice this, but if summerschool is in session, then why
> couldn't Riddle, or Harry stay over the summer?
> 
> 
>  
>        Exactly, Good question. I think that this was probably a typo 
in QTTA, 
> but remember also that the dates in the cover were RETURN dates.. 
they could 
> have checked them out toward the end of the year, and then had the 
standard 2 
> months or whatever to return them.
> 

There is also a September 16 due date. If the borrowing period is 2 
months, then the book would have been borrowed July 16, when school is 
closed. And if the borrowing period is, say, 2 weeks to one month, 
there are due dates for August 12 and 21.

I remember when I was in school, about a month before summer vacation, 
 all due dates were stamped as the last day of classes.

:-)Milz
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar 29 18:12:28 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:12:28 -0000
Subject: SHIP Ginny
In-Reply-To: <99vgab+qo07@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99vtuc+1qs0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15520

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
  Cassie, "boring wimp" is definitely a harsh judgment on 
> someone who you then go on to say we don't know well enough to 
judge.


 Well, all right, I'll retract "wimp" <g> but I honestly do find her 
characterization so far to be boring. That doesn't mean I don't hope 
that they'll be more detail on her in the future and that she'll turn 
out to be not so dull. She might indeed be very interesting; my point 
was only that if she is, we haven't seen it, and I want to see it. 
Like I said before, it'd be really nice if she was given a chance to 
be brave and interesting and stand up for herself.

Cassie




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 18:19:53 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:19:53 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FB/QTA  where to get 'em
References: <98osml+2jbg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006f01c0b87c$d9d8e660$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15521

Hi!

Anyone other more traditional (aka Kmart, lol) ideas on where to obtain the
books?  My check comes in this weekend, and I PLAN to get them!

Grins....


Dee

(Thinks Target, maybe, bookstores, definitely, but those are generally
harder to get to....etc)

----- Original Message -----
From: <Zarleycat at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FB/QTA where to get 'em


> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Meredith Wilson
> > <aviationoutreachcoord at m...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be patient, but I
> haven't
> > gotten
> > > them in the mail yet dang it!!
> > >
> > > Mer
> >
> > I found my copies at a local Wal-Mart because Amazon.Com sold out
> > (and they almost never go out of stock on stuff I like)
> >
> > Good luck!
>
> Borders.com still has them in stock.
>
> Marianne
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Thu Mar 29 18:23:53 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (fgcjnk at btinternet.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:23:53 -0000
Subject: Sirius and the Firebolt (was Heaven save us, another original thought)
In-Reply-To: <99ucu9+c3bg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99vujp+hg13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15522

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote: 
> If you read the new magical beasts book, it lends some insight into 
> the goblins and their relationship to MOM.. They're most definitely 
a 
> seperate entity from the Ministry, which probably has something to 
do 
> to the rebellions that have been mentioned several times. I think 
> they're soveriegn in some way, which is probably why they maintain 
> the bank, being sort of an impartial third party.

Like the Swiss.  All sorts all have swiss bank accounts.  Very secure 
and confidential.

Florence




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Mar 29 18:28:13 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:28:13 -0000
Subject: Summer School
In-Reply-To: <99vtk1+7b12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99vurt+hj7d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15523

JKR has stated that Hogwarts is closed during the summer and the only 
one there is Flich. So what do we do about the dates on the library 
slip?

Here's my take:

The two "schoolbooks" are NOT original books from the Hogwarts 
library or Harry's bookbag. According to the information in the 
introductions, they are specially prepared to be seen and read by 
Muggles, using the originals as the source. That means that, among 
other things, the list of names and dates isn't from an actual 
library book but was added by Dumbledore for authenticity. He just 
chose names that he thought might be identifiable and put them on the 
list. His only goal in chosing dates was to make them run right up to 
the release date of the book.

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon




From fgcjnk at btinternet.com  Thu Mar 29 18:41:49 2001
From: fgcjnk at btinternet.com (Florence)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:41:49 -0000
Subject: SHIP Ginny
In-Reply-To: <99vtuc+1qs0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <99vvld+hqnn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15524

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote: 
> Like I said before, it'd be really nice if she was given a chance to 
> be brave and interesting and stand up for herself.
> 
> Cassie

For Harry to start to take notice of her she needs to do something 
like join the Griffindor quidditch team (He seems to like sporty 
types). 

Florence 




From michelleapostolides at lineone.net  Thu Mar 29 18:43:57 2001
From: michelleapostolides at lineone.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:43:57 +0100
Subject: Summer Schools and Discipline policy
Message-ID: <009601c0b880$40f1ffa0$905b063e@tmeltcds>

No: HPFGUIDX 15525

Some people have been querying whether the return dates in one of the
Comic Relief books indicates a summer school at Hogwarts.

I should point out that the concept does not really exist in the UK.
There have been some government schemes very recently but these are very
much a new thing and they seem to be more in the state sector. Hogwarts
has always struck me as being run along the lines of a traditional
English ( or even Scottish ) public school.

I should also point out that in such schools most of the time Expulsion
is at the headmaster's discretion.

Most public schools have a chaplain ( and therefore some kind of place
of religious worship ) who fulfils the role of counsellor.

Michelle




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 18:55:44 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:55:44 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <99tq9r+ea4b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a00fg+of3e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15526

Sounds like I misinterpreted pretty much Cassie's whole post.  Oops!  

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
<snip of my part>
> I never said that a woman couldn't be nurturing and still be equal. 
> What I said was that if that was all she was and all she did, that > 
would bother me. <snip>

But Jim's post wasn't saying that's all she would do.  He wasn't 
focusing at that point on what all else Ginny may do, because that 
wasn't what his post was about.  That's why I thought your post was in 
reference to the nurturing aspect specifically, I guess.  

> Kimberly: Ginny has demonstrated no tendency to treat Harry 
> > like his mother.  I don't see the sin in being supportive of 
> someone  you love.  It doesn't mean you do nothing else... <snip>, 
>
Cassie:
> Granted, but we are not talking about people and relationships in 
> general, or anyone's personal experience, we are talking about Harry 
> and Ginny specifically. My arguement is not that there is anything 
> wrong with being supportive of someone you love. <snip for space>   
> Try not to look at it as a personal thing and purely in literary  
> terms: Harry is our protagonist, arguably the most developed 
> character in the books. It makes logical sense to me that if he is 
> to be intimately paired with someone else, that person should be a 
> well-developed character as well, otherwise we as readers will find  
> it jarring.

Point taken.  But I don't think anyone's argued that it should happen 
now.  I wasn't trying to say that, as-is, Ginny's right for Harry.  My 
argument is, in literary terms ;), that I find the small amount that I 
know about Ginny to indicate that she has potential to be a very 
strong woman.  In CoS, we get the 'Victim Ginny' that people don't 
really like, but her one really big mistake was trusting the diary.  
Normally that's not something you'd expect to result in mind control 
and attempted mass murder.  She did try more than once to fix things.  
She failed, but the effort shows some strenght of character to me.  I 
admit there's not much of her in PoA, but what there is in GoF is all 
positive.  I think there's going to be more development for her in 
this direction, and that in the course of the story, it will make 
sense for a relationship to happen.  I'm ready to be proven wrong (as 
I said, we H/Gers live mostly on hope), but I don't think it's out 
of the question.

I think you and I are closer to agreement than we thought, except that 
I'm actively looking forward to the possibility of Ginny becoming a 
great, strong character and being a good match for Harry, and you're 
skeptical that it will happen, and maybe wouldn't really care for it 
if it did?  Is that closer to right?

> I guess I really just don't aspire to being a boring wimp. I kind of 
> don't think Ginny does either. <snip>

Surely you got that I was trying to say that I don't think Ginny *is* 
a boring wimp?  Especially that bit further down where I said "I don't 
think Ginny is a boring wimp." :D  I can accept boring in the 
*specific* context that she doesn't get to be in on all the excitement 
(yet!), but she's done nothing wimpy.  She was defeated by a far 
stronger wizard.  That happens to pretty much everyone from time to 
time (well, I guess I've never been beaten by a stronger *wizard*, but 
defeat is universal), and if they survive, and carry on with life, I'd 
hesitate to call them wimps.  

But in truth my comment about wanting to be that kind of wimp came 
from my mistaken belief that you were saying that being nurturing and 
supportive would *make* her a boring wimp.  I was saying if that's 
your definition of wimp, then I'd quite like to be it, or words to 
that effect that make more sense.
 
> I don't recall ever having said that unconditional love is weak. 
> What I said is that Ginny is weak as a character, not even so much 
> personally as in terms of how she's been developed. Which is not 
> much. I also said that I object to the theory that Harry's romantic 
> partner should offer him the kind of love he's been missing all his 
> life, because the kind of love he's been missing is parental love, 
> and that is a different kind of love than the love a romantic 
> partner can give you. <snip> I do not believe that Ginny is not an 
> appropriate partner for Harry because she's offering him weak love 
> or something (and I'm weirded out to have my statements interpreted 
> that way) I think she is not an appropriate partner for him at the 
> moment because they are unequally developed characters. <snip>

Again that can be chalked up to my confusion over the nature of your 
statements.  The above about Ginny being a weakly developed character 
I'm fine with, but what I read originally:

<<It is a very bad idea for Harry to be getting the unconditional 
"parental" love he's missing in his life from his romantic partner. He 
needs someone strong for that; someone who will tell him when he's 
doing something stupid and dangerous, which he often does, someone who 
can help him, assist him, and be an equal partner to him.>> 

threw me for a loop.  I thought you were comparing unconditional 
love whith the things you listed after, and saying it was *not* those 
things.  So I reread it, and puzzled it for awhile, and came to the 
(erroneously) stunned conclusion that you were saying that if his 
romantic partner gave him unconditional love (which I don't see as 
being specific to a parental relationship at all, thus adding to my 
confusion), that would mean that they were not strong, outspoken, able 
to help him, and equal.  I didn't mean to weird you out, honest!  You 
can see it weirded me out when I thought that's what you were saying 
as well!  

Kimberly,
relieved to have been wrong




From irbohlen at email.unc.edu  Thu Mar 29 18:56:20 2001
From: irbohlen at email.unc.edu (irbohlen at email.unc.edu)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:56:20 -0000
Subject: Summer Schools and Discipline policy
In-Reply-To: <009601c0b880$40f1ffa0$905b063e@tmeltcds>
Message-ID: <9a00gk+ol4d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15527

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" <
michelleapostolides at l...> wrote:
<snip>
Hogwarts
> has always struck me as being run along the lines of a traditional
> English ( or even Scottish ) public school.

<snip>

This is true, just to clarify: "public" schools in the UK are what we 
USians call "private" schools...and to get even more nitpicky, public 
schools are the upper ecehelon; the system in general would be called 
"boarding schools" as JKR corrects herself to say in one of the 
interviews with Stephen Fry on the Bloomsbury site.

Ivis
[who upon consulting the timeline was shocked to realise she is older 
than James and Lilly, possibly even older than Arthur and Molly...
*sigh*]





From litalex at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 20:06:51 2001
From: litalex at yahoo.com (Alexandra Y. Kwan)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:06:51 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Books burnt in Germany too!!
References: <99vri7+15ic@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <023901c0b88b$ccac9040$5911eda9@kwan>

No: HPFGUIDX 15528

Hello,

> Burning books seems like an enormous waste of money and I hope this
> was not done or condoned by any churches or there will be accusations
> of hypocrisy again.

It's not the money aspect I'm worried about.  I forgot who said it, but
someone said something very similar to "the next step to burning books is
burning people."  *That*'s the part I'm worried about.

little Alex




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 29 20:13:09 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:13:09 -0600
Subject: SHIP: More Comments on Various Threads (lots on Ginny)
References: <99tlau+oei0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC39755.C873F2AD@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15529

Hi --

catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Sorry Penny, I still dispute this.  There is more than one instance
> when Hermione mentions trying to mediate between the boys and makes
> it clear that she has spoken to Ron.  And she isn't described as
> being with Harry all the time.  I've just reread the whole of that
> section and there are numerous times when she isn't with Harry - it's
> just that this gets clouded by the help she is giving him with the
> first task, and that he needs someone to talk to re. the Sirius
> situation.

I think it's a bit more than just helping him with the First Task.  She
also apparently eats all her meals with him (he eats alone when she is
in the hospital wing getting her teeth fixed).  It appears that they
walk to classes together -- at least those that they share.  They sit
together in classes that they share.  They spend time in the library
together.  So, maybe she did spend some time with Ron, but we don't have
that overwhelming impression.  Or, at least I don't.  If Harry
occasionally noticed that Hermione was with Ron or he thought to himself
that he wished she wasn't eating lunch with Ron because now he's stuck
eating lunch with Colin Creevey, then I'd have a different impression.
But, my read says that Harry is either alone or with Hermione.  So,
maybe she's with Ron everytime Harry's alone.  That's possible, but it's
conjecture.

Bbennett said:

> I think we're getting confused on the scene we're discussing. Heidi
> did make a good point on the scene where Harry notices that Hermione
> looks furious; she could very well have already been furious and he
> just hadn't noticed yet. The semi-colon scene is different <snip>
>
You are, of course, right!  :--)  I didn't go back & distinguish that in
my mind before commenting.  Mind you, I still think Hermione despised
Fleur from the beginning & her dislike has nothing to do with romantic
feelings for Ron.  The semi-colon debate isn't all that convincing to me
but ....

> Cassie: (And JKR did say everyone would fall for the wrong people in Book 4. *cough* Ron *cough*).>
>
> Am I remembering wrong? I thought JKR said this specifically in
> relation to Harry (something like "People tend not to fall for people
> who might be good for them; therfore, Harry will not fall for Ginny
> or for Hermione"). I tried to track back through the chats at
> HPGalleries; I couldn't find it,
>
She did say in at least one pre-GoF interview or chat that all the
characters would fall for the wrong people.  The context had something
to do with them all becoming adolescents, hormones raging ... that sort
of thing.  I could dig it out, but it would take time .... time I don't
have.  Under this logic, I suppose there's not much hope for my
Neville/Ginny theory, which I quite like.  :--)

> Penny wrote:
> > But, there've been lots of posts "reminding" us H/H shippers how
> > silly we're being.  Ron *clearly* fell for Hermione in GoF,
> >don't 'cha know.  Hmmmm.......
>
> Bbennett: Penny, I promise I've never doubted most H/Hrs know this, and I think
> I speak for most R/Hrs. I posted on this in the past, but only in an
> attempt to sway someone who stated she saw no evidence of Ron's
> attraction.
>
Oh, I know *you* know that, B!  :--)  I was just thinking about all the
newbies who join the group & say things like "Well, R/H is the way JKR
is headed.  Ron clearly likes Hermione!"  As if the H/H types hadn't
thought of that one already!  I'm anxious for the Romance FAQ to be
uploaded somewhere so that we don't have to rehash the same old, same
old every few weeks as a new upsurge of members join in.

> But I think maybe when Naama says "falls for", she
> means "consciously shows an attraction for". Ron seems to acknowledge
> an attraction for Fleur (or at least be really, really embarrassed he
> asked her to the ball); he doesn't consciously acknowledge that he
> likes Hermione.
>
I agree.  I really am mainly kidding about Hermione maybe being Ron's
"Ms. Wrong" for purposes of Book 4, but there is a straight-faced
argument that can be made on that score.  I suspect JKR meant Cho, Fleur
& Krum to be the "wrong" ones for our Trio.  But, Fleur is a bit
debatable.

I agree with Carole -- I deleted the original post, but we "quiet girls"
are not all passive types!!

Amy Z wrote:

> Thanks.  Flattery will not release you from having to give evidence .
> . . though having 2 weeks 'til delivery might.  I would really like to
> know what you think we know about Bill.  Seems friendly; like Molly,
> unhesitatingly supports Dumbledore and jumps into the fray; breaks
> curses for a living, wears unstodgy clothing; was a good student; what
> else?
>
He seems fun, unconventional, responsible .... Hmm.  Now, you've made me
think.  Here's what I think.  I think Bill is a fully-formed adult
character, whereas Ginny is still very young (not a fully-formed person
yet).  We don't meet Bill or Charlie until GoF, but I feel like I know a
little something about each of them as people.  I have an overall
*positive* impression of both of them.  In contrast, I mainly have an
overall *negative* impression of Ginny.  It's not an impression that
couldn't be changed with some good character development.

Ginny is still a bit shadowy in my mind.  In PS/SS, she's just a whiny
little girl with almost no lines, let alone character development.  In
CoS, she's shy around Harry ... blushing, dropping her elbow in the
butter dish .... then falling prey to Riddle's diary.  She does have
that moment in the bookshop where she sticks up for Harry - this shows
an glimmer of gumption.  But, at the end of CoS, we're left again with
the image of Ginny sobbing in Molly's arms.  In PoA, Ginny turns red
when she sees Harry.  She experiences anxiety on the train in the face
of the Dementor -- probably residual from the Riddle experience.  Is
Ginny ever mentioned again in PoA?  If so, nothing springs to mind.  Oh
yeah, blushing, she brings Harry a singing get-well card at one point.
In GoF, Ginny is actively excluded from the Trio's activities, both at
the Burrow & at the World Cup.  She does indicate she thinks Bill's
earring is cool so maybe a little of fanon Ginny is peeking through
there.  <g>  Then, we have Ginny's one shining moment in the pre-Yule
Ball scene.  We see her wincing when dancing with Neville.  Is she
mentioned again after that?  She's not with Bill, Molly, Ron & Hermione
when they come in search of Harry.  She's not with the Trio & twins on
the train trip home.  If she's seen after the Yule Ball scene, I can't
recall it.

I guess I just focus on negative traits when I think about Ginny.  Maybe
it's my own bias against her faults.  I see some of my younger self in
her actions, and it's a side I've outgrown & don't much care to
remember.  So .... consequently, I don't like her character much.  And,
I definitely don't think she's a strong enough character to be the
love-interest of Harry, the hero.  Not at this point.  She might become
a strong enough character, but I do remain skeptical that this will
happen.  For one thing, I don't know how they move past the fact that
Ginny has had a long-standing hero-adulation crush on Harry.  It has to
move past that for it to be a believable romance, and I think that would
be hard to pull off convincingly.  The crush has been a bit annoying for
Harry at times (the Valentine scene for example).  I don't know -- I
just don't see it.

I find it fascinating that there are people who not only like Ginny but
see all kinds of different things in her character.

Penny




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar 29 20:19:18 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:19:18 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <99t9tu+mga2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a05c6+o007@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15530

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Jim Ferer" <jferer at y...> wrote:
> 
> I agree with that. But if R and H get together, and Ginny ends up 
with 
> who-knows-who, or nobody, it's a little awkward. It might work, 
> though.

How awkward? At the end of Book 7, she'll be 16, maybe 17 (her 
birthday cannot be before January 1981, unless witches have shorter 
gestation periods than muggles) 

I'm not saying it's bad to hope that Ginny becomes a strong, brave, 
competent character in her own right - I, for one, would cheer if she 
did - but the Ginny in canon right now is not there yet. I wonder if 
the characteristics some listies are giving her are projections of 
either the they either posess themselves (or wish they did) or the 
characteristics they would appreciate in a spouse - not necessarily 
the ones that would fit with Harry Potter. And, to be honest, being 
what I think of as a strong, independent (although not particularly 
brave in the warrior sense) and competent woman, who happens to be 
married to a guy who's more of a feminist than I am, I cannot imagine 
why a guy, in this day & age, would be interested in a woman whose 
major qualities are "safeness" and "quietness".  It's not what he 
sought in friends (he's not best buddies with Neville, who seems to 
exhibit those qualities on occasion, and if he sought those things in 
a friend, he might very well have). 
Being "devoted" is a great quality when it's appropriate - but one 
has to be devoted to a person, after coming to know said person over 
a period of time and developing a mature relationship with him/her. 
Being devoted to an idea or a manifestation of something isn't a 
relationship. It is syncophancy.




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar 29 20:32:07 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:32:07 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <9a00fg+of3e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a0647+h4pk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15531

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:

"But Jim's post wasn't saying that's all she would do.  He wasn't 
> focusing at that point on what all else Ginny may do, because that 
> wasn't what his post was about.  That's why I thought your post was 
in  reference to the nurturing aspect specifically, I guess.  
> 
Okay, then, what was his post about? From what I can tell the post  
(and I've reread it a couple of times) was about what Hermione would  
offer Harry as a romantic partner versus what Ginny would, and vice  
versa. If I read it wrong, then correct me, but that's what it looked 
like. Hermione, according to the post "wants an intellectually and  
emotionally strong partner, somebody who will both stimulate and  
challenge her." She'll "keep Harry's head on straight."

Wheras Ginny "will love Harry with the kind of devotion 
and passion that the quiet girls develop. (Note to younger male 
members of this group: remember that.) She will always be there for 
him, a healing balm, a safe harbor; and Harry will be good for her 
because he won't take her for granted." 

The part of the post about Hermione mentioned what SHE might get out 
of the relationship; the part about Ginny just addressed what she 
could, quietly and safely and devotedly, offer to Harry.
And THAT was the characterization of Ginny that I was objecting to. 
Calling her a "healing balm and a safe harbor" and emphasizing 
her "quietness" and her "devotion" just really bothered me. It 
doesn't seem to me to be the Ginny I'd like to see (brave, spirited, 
interesting) and frankly doesn't even seem to be the Ginny we know 
very little about from canon. (Ron says she is not in fact a "quiet 
girl"; she's just quiet around Harry.) 

Nor is it the description of 
any kind of person I can see Harry wanting to be with. Also his not 
taking her for granted seems to be a strange extrapolation. Why 
wouldn't he, since there is no mention in the post of Ginny being 
spirited or self-confident or adventurous; just as being quiet, safe 
and devoted. Note I am not saying that there is anything WRONG with 
being quiet and safe and devoted, just that I can't see that being 
something Harry would want *unless* it was balanced out by 
characteristics like strength and bravery, which were NOT mentioned 
in the post. 

The post described an extremely passive-sounding Ginny, 
which was what offended me (and Carole, and Heidi, and the others who 
mentioned it.) I agree with Heidi "I cannot imagine 
why a guy, in this day and age, would be interested in a woman whose 
major qualities are "safeness" and "quietness".  It's not what he 
(Harry) sought in friends" and I cannot see him seeking it in a 
girlfriend either.


Kimberly:
"I think you and I are closer to agreement than we thought, except 
that  I'm actively looking forward to the possibility of Ginny 
becoming a  great, strong character and being a good match for Harry, 
and you're  skeptical that it will happen, and maybe wouldn't really 
care for it  if it did?  Is that closer to right?

I'm mildly skeptical, albeit hopeful, that it will happen, but would 
be happy to see it if it did. I'd be perfectly happy in that case 
with an H/G relationship. (Not that JKR is waiting on MY say-so. <g>)
What I was objecting to was the matchup of 
a  "quiet" "safe" "devoted" Ginny with Harry, when what I would like 
to see is the matchup of a "brave", "interesting," "spirited" Ginny 
with Harry, and if that Ginny also happens to be devoted to him, 
that's obviously fine (as long as he is devoted back). I can't quite 
get with "safe" and "quiet" but maybe that's just me.

Cassie




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Mar 29 20:47:28 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:47:28 -0000
Subject: Muggleparents and Diagon Alley
Message-ID: <9a0710+naid@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15532


Some thought I have been pondering on during a slightly unfun day at 
school. 

 Has there never been one single muggleparent (either married to a 
wizard/witch or just belonging to a mugglefamily given a magical 
child) who when the letter from Hogwarts arriwed when the kid was 
eleven, tried to expose the wizarding world - yelling out about it to 
the entire world? Either just to get noticed/famous, or beacuse of 
the reason Hagrid mentioned in book 1: "Everybody would like to have 
magical sollutions to their problems" (something like it). I do not 
doubt there is people who?d do it in a second, if they had anything 
to gain from it. 
 What are the teachers/the headmaster at Hogwarts to do with these? 
Would they know, in some way, which parents are to be trusted, before 
sending out the letter, or is this just a blind shot? Them sending 
letters out to all magical children, hoping for all the parents to be 
just and earnest?
 If they in some way knows who are not to be trusted, what then? 
These children aren?t allowed at Hogwarts? Or would Hogwarts throw a 
memory spell over the parents, and then having the children lie all 
years about where they goes to school?

 (My thoughts are a bit hard to get a grip of, perhaps, expressed in 
a language only used at English-classes in school...but bear with 
me. :)

 Diagon-Alley then. 
 Where is this place really... "placed"? I know it is said its in 
London, behind The Leaking Cauldron at Charing Cross Road. But isn?t 
London like covered with houses? It is stated that muggles cannot see 
Hogwarts, but only a sign which sais Danger, and a harmless ruin. And 
that make sense to me, since no muggle lives at this very spot. But 
The Leaking Cauldron is mentioned the same way, the muggles can?t see 
it (or, they don?t appear to) and I guess the same thing goes for 
Diagon Alley. So what is there in the muggleworld instead of Diagon 
Alley? Shouldn?t there be a street or something, with people living 
on it? This could?t just be a charm thrown over an "empty" area, 
having the muggles to see something thats really not there. This 
should mean that Diagon Alley is placed in some kind of another 
universe (or something).

(in short - how could Madame Malkin have a store at the exact spot as 
The "Mrs Smith?s" London-rowhouse?)

Maybe I?m not getting something very important about the wizarding 
world - like that everything about it is set in a parallel world. but 
I allways though they lived in the same world as ours?

(Or is this just supposed to be...magic? :)

/Jennifer













From bbennett at joymail.com  Thu Mar 29 20:49:23 2001
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett at joymail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:49:23 -0000
Subject: SHIP: More Comments on Various Threads (lots on Ginny)
In-Reply-To: <3AC39755.C873F2AD@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9a074j+hgds@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15533


B Bennett:
> > Am I remembering wrong? I thought JKR said this specifically in
> > relation to Harry (something like "People tend not to fall for 
people who might be good for them; therfore, Harry will not fall for 
Ginny or for Hermione"). I tried to track back through the chats at
HPGalleries; I couldn't find it,

Penny said

> She did say in at least one pre-GoF interview or chat that all the
> characters would fall for the wrong people.  The context had 
>something to do with them all becoming adolescents, hormones 
>raging ... that sort of thing.  I could dig it out, but it would 
take time .... time I don't have.  Under this logic, I suppose 
there's not much hope for my Neville/Ginny theory, which I quite 
like.  :--)>

You guys are right - I hadn't read that particular chat (I'm a little 
disturbed that I missed one :*). Here's the question:

Q: Ms. Rowling, I'd like to ask if there [will] be a lot of romances 
between the characters in the upcoming books?

A: Good question. I'm having so much fun writing Book 4 because for 
the first time Harry, Ron, and Hermione are starting to recognize 
boys and girls as boys and girls. Everyone is in love with the wrong 
people. Let no one say my books lack realism.

And you shouldn't give up on your Neville/Ginny theory - that has 
potential.

B






From heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu  Thu Mar 29 20:49:27 2001
From: heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu (heidi.h.tandy.c92 at alumni.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:49:27 -0000
Subject: The Wrong People - A Quotation Collection
Message-ID: <9a074n+dkh8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15534

FYI - go to the Archives YahooGroup and read Messages 2933, 2967 for 
a bit of pre-GoF commentary on who "the wrong people" might be,,,

I found quotes where JKR is discussing this particular issue. Food 
for thought - take it as you will. I know how *I* take it...

CBS Morning News, July 9, 2000
Ms. ROWLING: Part of the reason it's so much fun to write is they're 
all discovering their hormones, which is always fun to write about. 
And they're mainly in love with the wrong people, just to make it 
like life.

San Fran Chronicle, July 2, 2000
Rowling has acknowledged that hormones will kick in, apparently for 
Harry and his best friends Ron and Hermione, and that "people will 
fall in love with the wrong people" 

Chicago Tribune June 27, 2000
 Cupid's strike promises plenty of comedy because "they're all in 
love with the wrong people." 

Capital Times, June 23, 2000
Writes Book magazine: ''J.K. Rowling wants it to be true to life, so 
they all fall in love with the wrong people. Harry will not date 
either Hermione or Ginny though.'' 

Columbus Dispatch October 28, 1999
Q: Will Harry find romance in book four? 
A: He tries, but he doesn't get very far.  They're all kind of after 
the wrong people, as in life. Hermione gets the first date, and it's 
quite a cool one because I thought I owed her a bit of fun. 

Chicago Tribune September 21, 1999
"Harry and his friends are entering adolescence proper," Rowling 
said. "They're all in love with the wrong people." 




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Thu Mar 29 20:56:10 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:56:10 -0000
Subject: FB/QTA  where to get 'em
In-Reply-To: <006f01c0b87c$d9d8e660$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <9a07ha+auj8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15535

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Denise R" <gypsycaine at y...> wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> Anyone other more traditional (aka Kmart, lol) ideas on where to 
obtain the
> books?  My check comes in this weekend, and I PLAN to get them!
> 
> Grins....
> 
> 
> Dee
> 
> (Thinks Target, maybe, bookstores, definitely, but those are 
generally
> harder to get to....etc)


Sorry listmums if this is OT. 

Denise, 

The last time I checked, both Barnes & Noble and Books-A-Million had 
them.  I would think that other bookstores would carry them as well.

Good Luck!

Parker
> 
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Mar 29 21:00:00 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:00:00 -0000
Subject: SHIP: the Wrong ones for our Trio
In-Reply-To: <3AC39755.C873F2AD@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9a07og+4n3a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15536

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 

I suspect JKR meant Cho, Fleur
> & Krum to be the "wrong" ones for our Trio.  But, Fleur is a bit
> debatable.

 It has been a while now since I read Goblet of Fire, having mostly 
focused on the first three books in the serie. But I allways thought 
Krum was the debatable? Is there ever mentioned that Hermione "falls" 
for him? When I read it, I thought she just tried to be nice to him, 
maybe a bit flattered, but that he were the one having to deal with 
the "falling part". 

/Jennifer




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Mar 29 21:07:36 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:07:36 -0000
Subject: SHIP: More Comments on Various Threads (lots on Ginny)
In-Reply-To: <3AC39755.C873F2AD@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <9a086o+4hf9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15537

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
I mainly have an
> overall *negative* impression of Ginny.  It's not an impression that
> couldn't be changed with some good character development.
> 
> Ginny is still a bit shadowy in my mind.  In PS/SS, she's just a 
whiny
> little girl with almost no lines, let alone character development.  
In
> CoS, she's shy around Harry ... blushing, dropping her elbow in the
> butter dish .... then falling prey to Riddle's diary.  She does have
> that moment in the bookshop where she sticks up for Harry - this 
shows
> an glimmer of gumption.  But, at the end of CoS, we're left again 
with
> the image of Ginny sobbing in Molly's arms.  In PoA, Ginny turns red
> when she sees Harry.  She experiences anxiety on the train in the 
face
> of the Dementor -- probably residual from the Riddle experience.  Is
> Ginny ever mentioned again in PoA?  If so, nothing springs to 
mind.  Oh
> yeah, blushing, she brings Harry a singing get-well card at one 
point.
> In GoF, Ginny is actively excluded from the Trio's activities, both 
at
> the Burrow & at the World Cup.  She does indicate she thinks Bill's
> earring is cool so maybe a little of fanon Ginny is peeking through
> there.  <g>  Then, we have Ginny's one shining moment in the pre-
Yule
> Ball scene.  We see her wincing when dancing with Neville.  Is she
> mentioned again after that?  She's not with Bill, Molly, Ron & 
Hermione
> when they come in search of Harry.  She's not with the Trio & twins 
on
> the train trip home.  If she's seen after the Yule Ball scene, I 
can't
> recall it.
> 
> I guess I just focus on negative traits when I think about Ginny.  
Maybe
> it's my own bias against her faults.  I see some of my younger self 
in
> her actions, and it's a side I've outgrown & don't much care to
> remember.  So .... consequently, I don't like her character much.  
And,
> I definitely don't think she's a strong enough character to be the
> love-interest of Harry, the hero.  Not at this point.  She might 
become
> a strong enough character, but I do remain skeptical that this will
> happen.  For one thing, I don't know how they move past the fact 
that
> Ginny has had a long-standing hero-adulation crush on Harry.  It 
has to
> move past that for it to be a believable romance, and I think that 
would
> be hard to pull off convincingly.  The crush has been a bit 
annoying for
> Harry at times (the Valentine scene for example).  I don't know -- I
> just don't see it.
> 
> I find it fascinating that there are people who not only like Ginny 
but
> see all kinds of different things in her character.
> 
> Penny

 Just a quickie - this is probably overlapping with a Chatter mail on 
SHIPS which is going on at the moment, but I still think you are 
selling Ginny short.  I've never seen her as being whiny - in fact, 
when she has cause to be miserable we have seen her keeping it very 
much to herself - or at least away from Harry and Ron.  

The only time we have seen her in an over-emotional state (which 
could concievably be described as whiny, but which I prefer to 
describe as a little overwrought) is during CoS.  At this time, she 
is worried about fitting into school and has all those brothers to 
follow, she has a crush on probably the most famous young wizard of 
all time and people are trying to embarrass her about it (I don't 
want to get involved in the who sent Harry the valentine's card 
debate), she is seriously questioning her own sanity - re the impact 
of the diary and what it is forcing her to do, she thinks that she is 
likely to be expelled and to cap it all, she nearly dies.  It is any 
wonder, that at the tender age of 11, when Harry has rescued her, 
that she has a minor breakdown?  And all she does is cry and want to 
be comforted by her mother.  Well, I am not in the slightest bit 
surprised.

The adulation crush I also (at this stage) don't have a problem 
with.  She has almost certainly been brought up knowing about Harry, 
she is overwhelmed when she meets him in the flesh (for goodness 
sake, she is only ten at the time afterall).  BUT, it lasts.  It has 
now lasted for four years.  That in my book is pretty unusual for 
someone of Ginny's age.  Especially as she is in perfect position to 
spend quite a bit of time with Harry.  After all, familiarity breeds 
contempt, and that does not seem to have happened with Ginny.  We  
don't know if this infatuation of a famous person is simply that, or 
whether Ginny has got beyond that.  That is something I will be very 
interested to find out about.  My position regarding Harry's POV is 
ambivalent.  He is quite aware of Ginny - see CoS, when he alone 
notices her clumsiness, her blushes etc. while he is around - yet he 
still makes the effort to talk to her and chooses to ignore her 
embarrassment, despite probably being aware that he would be teased 
if everyone else was to notice (he is relieved on this point).


I feel as though I am starting the Ginny fan club here.  I'm not, but 
I am prepared to be a big fan on reading the later books!
Catherine




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 21:15:21 2001
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (Kimberly)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:15:21 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <9a0647+h4pk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a08l9+v2bu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15538

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cassandraclaire at m... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> 
> "But Jim's post wasn't saying that's all she would do.  He wasn't 
> > focusing at that point on what all else Ginny may do, because that 
> > wasn't what his post was about.  That's why I thought your post 
was 
> in  reference to the nurturing aspect specifically, I guess.  
> > 
> Okay, then, what was his post about? 

Well, now I think of it, from what mash I made of your post I might 
not be the best person to ask.  <g>

> From what I can tell the post  
> (and I've reread it a couple of times) was about what Hermione would  
> offer Harry as a romantic partner versus what Ginny would, and vice  
> versa. If I read it wrong, then correct me, but that's what it 
looked 
> like. 

No, that's what I thought as well.  I figured since it was focusing on 
the relationship aspects, it wasn't going to go into what Ginny's 
other passions in life might be.  It was just focusing on the one, I 
think, that we already know about.

> Hermione, according to the post "wants an intellectually and  
> emotionally strong partner, somebody who will both stimulate and  
> challenge her." She'll "keep Harry's head on straight."
> 
> Wheras Ginny "will love Harry with the kind of devotion 
> and passion that the quiet girls develop. (Note to younger male 
> members of this group: remember that.) She will always be there for 
> him, a healing balm, a safe harbor; and Harry will be good for her 
> because he won't take her for granted." 
> 
> The part of the post about Hermione mentioned what SHE might get out 
> of the relationship; the part about Ginny just addressed what she 
> could, quietly and safely and devotedly, offer to Harry.
> And THAT was the characterization of Ginny that I was objecting to.

Ok, that makes sense.  I probably projected a little into Jim's post, 
I admit, and can't really know what he intended at all.  But I'm 
guessing that he's suffering from the same problem I am, which is that 
I love Ginny to death, and want great things for her, but don't, just 
yet, know exactly what she wants for herself, other than Harry.  He 
does say that she'll get Harry *not* taking her for granted out of it, 
which I'm sure she'd like.  I think her family does, to an extent, and 
for the moment so does Harry.  I'd like to think he wouldn't take her 
for granted if she did offer all that, but I'd have to agree that if 
Ginny were to be nothing but a vessel for all sorts of mushy stuff, 
I'll lose interest in my very own ship, but I don't think it's gonna 
happen that way.

So, cap'n Jim - what all didja mean?  'Cause I'm making a mess of 
things out here on my own!

kimberly




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Mar 29 21:23:46 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:23:46 -0000
Subject: Muggleparents and Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <9a0710+naid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a0952+27s8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15539

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> 
> Some thought I have been pondering on during a slightly unfun day 
at 
> school. 
> 
>  Has there never been one single muggleparent (either married to a 
> wizard/witch or just belonging to a mugglefamily given a magical 
> child) who when the letter from Hogwarts arriwed when the kid was 
> eleven, tried to expose the wizarding world - yelling out about it 
to 
> the entire world? Either just to get noticed/famous, or beacuse of 
> the reason Hagrid mentioned in book 1: "Everybody would like to 
have 
> magical sollutions to their problems" (something like it). I do not 
> doubt there is people who?d do it in a second, if they had anything 
> to gain from it. 
>  What are the teachers/the headmaster at Hogwarts to do with these? 
> Would they know, in some way, which parents are to be trusted, 
before 
> sending out the letter, or is this just a blind shot? Them sending 
> letters out to all magical children, hoping for all the parents to 
be 
> just and earnest?
>  If they in some way knows who are not to be trusted, what then? 
> These children aren?t allowed at Hogwarts? Or would Hogwarts throw 
a 
> memory spell over the parents, and then having the children lie all 
> years about where they goes to school?
> 
>  (My thoughts are a bit hard to get a grip of, perhaps, expressed 
in 
> a language only used at English-classes in school...but bear with 
> me. :)
> 
>  Diagon-Alley then. 
>  Where is this place really... "placed"? I know it is said its in 
> London, behind The Leaking Cauldron at Charing Cross Road. But 
isn?t 
> London like covered with houses? It is stated that muggles cannot 
see 
> Hogwarts, but only a sign which sais Danger, and a harmless ruin. 
And 
> that make sense to me, since no muggle lives at this very spot. But 
> The Leaking Cauldron is mentioned the same way, the muggles can?t 
see 
> it (or, they don?t appear to) and I guess the same thing goes for 
> Diagon Alley. So what is there in the muggleworld instead of Diagon 
> Alley? Shouldn?t there be a street or something, with people living 
> on it? This could?t just be a charm thrown over an "empty" area, 
> having the muggles to see something thats really not there. This 
> should mean that Diagon Alley is placed in some kind of another 
> universe (or something).
> 
> (in short - how could Madame Malkin have a store at the exact spot 
as 
> The "Mrs Smith?s" London-rowhouse?)
> 
> Maybe I?m not getting something very important about the wizarding 
> world - like that everything about it is set in a parallel world. 
but 
> I allways though they lived in the same world as ours?
> 
> (Or is this just supposed to be...magic? :)
> 
> /Jennifer

A native Londoner speaking here.  Charing Cross Road is a street 
which connects Trafalgar Square to Cambridge Circus (where so many 
tourists go to see Les Miserables).  It intersects Leicester Square 
and Covent Garden, and is basically full of small shops, most of 
which are antiquarian/feminist/art bookshops etc. etc., other shops, 
chinese restaurants (it passes the side of China Town) and bars/pubs 
and theatres.  It would be very easy, therefore, for Muggles to allow 
there eyes to pass over a small, nondescript, murky looking pub, 
which is, after all designed not to be noticed.  

I think that JKR may have chosen this road of London, because it is 
so diverse, culturally, it is also close to Soho and China Town, so 
anything out of the ordinary is treated as the norm.  However, I get 
your point about the empty space - either side of the street is 
theatres, shops, restaurants and office space, so you are right about 
the lack of empty space to fill.  I have a theory.  Remember in CoS 
when they all drive off to Kings Cross in Arthur Weaseley's flying 
car?  And how spacious it is inside, so a normal Ford can hold 8 
people comfortably and all their luggage?  I think the same 
manipulation of space is going on in the non-Muggle areas.  Rather 
like a TARDIS.  (Did you get Dr Who in the USA?  If not I can explain 
the reference.)

Catherine




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Thu Mar 29 21:36:58 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:36:58 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: Please vote for a logo for this club (last few days!!!)
Message-ID: <00a601c0b898$62d463c0$253670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 15541

As Simon is off the scene at the moment, I am reposting his previous message about our logo competition. 

You can still vote for a logo for this club from a selection of entries, some of which challenge the boundaries of modern art (..made you look!!...).  The logo will be used throughout this club's various lists and files.

The poll will close on 31st March.     

Details and links below...

Thanks everyone!

Neil/Flying Ford Anglia
Mod Squad

******

Hello all,

The time is upon us we all can vote to make an important decision. Every
man, woman and child (not forgetting the goat, owl or car) has the chance
to vote and decide on the logo that will be used to declare the Harry
Potter for Grown Ups Internet presence.


I take this opportunity to thank everyone who has designed logos for us.
Your efforts are much appreciated.

The logos are viewable at the graphics group
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics).
There are two pages of logos to cast your beady eyes over. They are
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logo
s.htm and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownUps-Graphics/files/%20Logos/%20logo
s2.htm.

Each of the logos has a number to the left of it. These are the logo
identification numbers, and you will need to remember the number of your
favourite logo so that you can vote for it.

To vote you have to go to the Announcements group
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements). Once there you head
towards the polls section and there you will find the logo poll.  First you
will have to join the Announcements group, if you have not done so already.
Joining the Announcements list will also benefit your life by giving you
information about Harry Potter stuff.

You have until the end of this month (31st March) to cast your vote. There
will be no recounts.

If you have any questions or problems then feel free to contact me and,
hopefully, I will be able to supply you with an answer.

Simon Branford



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Mar 29 21:45:11 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:45:11 -0000
Subject: Muggleparents and Diagon Alley
Message-ID: <9a0ad7+5qh9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15542

Catherine wrote:

I get your point about the empty space - either side of the street is 
> theatres, shops, restaurants and office space, so you are right 
about 
> the lack of empty space to fill.  I have a theory.  Remember in CoS 
> when they all drive off to Kings Cross in Arthur Weaseley's flying 
> car?  And how spacious it is inside, so a normal Ford can hold 8 
> people comfortably and all their luggage?  I think the same 
> manipulation of space is going on in the non-Muggle areas.  Rather 
> like a TARDIS.  (Did you get Dr Who in the USA?  If not I can 
explain 
> the reference.)
> 
 Now, I?m from little Sweden, we don?t get to see anything. So no, I 
have not. I would much like to hear the reference...
 :) /Jennifer





From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Thu Mar 29 21:49:17 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:49:17 -0000
Subject: How many students at Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <20010329175940.92424.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9a0akt+fd39@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15543

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Magda Grantwich <mgrantwich at y...> wrote:

> > I think there are 280 students at Hogwart:
> > 10 people per class
> > 4 houses
> > 7 years.
> > I know it's not much, but it seems right to me
> > Rivi?re de Lune.
> 
> 
 
Are you sure there are 10 people per class? For example, maybe some 
year there weren?t born that much clever people, so Ravenclaw ended 
up with 5 students only?

/Jennifer 


> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Mar 29 21:57:32 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:57:32 -0000
Subject: Muggleparents and Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <9a0ad7+5qh9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a0b4c+gh2c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15544

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., jennifer.k at l... wrote:
> Catherine wrote:
> 
> I get your point about the empty space - either side of the street 
is 
> > theatres, shops, restaurants and office space, so you are right 
> about 
> > the lack of empty space to fill.  I have a theory.  Remember in 
CoS 
> > when they all drive off to Kings Cross in Arthur Weaseley's 
flying 
> > car?  And how spacious it is inside, so a normal Ford can hold 8 
> > people comfortably and all their luggage?  I think the same 
> > manipulation of space is going on in the non-Muggle areas.  
Rather 
> > like a TARDIS.  (Did you get Dr Who in the USA?  If not I can 
> explain 
> > the reference.)
> > 
>  Now, I?m from little Sweden, we don?t get to see anything. So no, 
I 
> have not. I would much like to hear the reference...
>  :) /Jennifer

Dr Who was a British sci-fi show which ran from the 60s through to 
the 80s about a "timelord."  He could basically time travel 
throughout the galaxies.  Anyway, his ship was called the TARDIS 
which stood for "Time and Relative Dimensions in Space". The whole 
point about it was, that where ever Dr Who landed, his ship was 
supposed to blend in to the surroundings, but his was broken and 
looked like a small police telephone box which used to be common in 
England (rather like an opaque version of one of our old-fashioned 
red telephone boxes.)  
The point which is relevant to Diagon Alley is that this ship was 
tiny on the outside, huge on the inside, and the dimensions were so 
wharped that you could land a full sized TARDIS inside another one.  
This is how I was trying to explain (via the Ford Anglia) that the 
magic community may fit Diagon Alley into a well-populated area.
Blimey, I think I've got there!  I *think* that explains what I 
mean.  If this is terribly incoherent could someone else who has 
watched Dr Who (from behind the sofa) please help me out?
Thanks!
Catherine




From katie at vquill.com  Thu Mar 29 22:07:13 2001
From: katie at vquill.com (Katie Kearns)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 14:07:13 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggleparents and Diagon Alley
In-Reply-To: <9a0b4c+gh2c@eGroups.com>
References: <9a0ad7+5qh9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329140423.00bbaa70@vquill.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15545

At 09:57 PM 3/29/01 +0000, you wrote:
>
>The point which is relevant to Diagon Alley is that this ship was
>tiny on the outside, huge on the inside, and the dimensions were so
>wharped that you could land a full sized TARDIS inside another one.
>This is how I was trying to explain (via the Ford Anglia) that the
>magic community may fit Diagon Alley into a well-populated area.
>Blimey, I think I've got there!  I *think* that explains what I
>mean.  If this is terribly incoherent could someone else who has
>watched Dr Who (from behind the sofa) please help me out?
>Thanks!
>Catherine

Well, I'm not sure you need to have watched Dr. Who (though it does help 
you get wacky references to Daleks), but I think your point is just "What 
if Diagon alley really didn't take up any space at all, through magic".

If you like to play role-playing games, think of it like a dimensional 
pocket or a bag of holding or something.

-Katie




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Thu Mar 29 22:27:00 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:27:00 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, Ashwinders
In-Reply-To: <99v83m+h1a7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a0crk+s06t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15546

> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> > Part Kneazle.. I think that's brilliant. The other thing I 
noticed in the book was that there were a half dozen types of snakes, 
and they all have interesting abilities.. I don't know why, but I 
think we're going to see an Ashwinder in the next book. It just 
seemes like JKR had it's story planned out in a bit too much detail, 
and it's power for making love potions is just too interesting. 
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ashwinders:  Argh!  Don't have my FB with me to refer to the 
description.  The 'love potion' bit ~is~ a terrific detail; I'd love 
to see this brought into the story.  Your comment about the many 
varieties of snakes is interesting, and has got me thinking.  I know 
we've discussed various thoughts on snakes within the storyline; can 
anyone give me a quick answer:  is the Slytherin mascot specifically 
a basilisk, or just a snake in general?  What I'm remembering is that 
the when snakes are mentioned in the books, they're referred to as a 
snake in the general sense, and the only times specific types are 
mentioned are the boa constrictor at the zoo, and the basilisk in the 
Chamber.  Thinking ahead to the coming VWII, we'll probably see Vold 
using snakes against good guys, and I believe someone proposed that 
maybe the boa constrictor will resurface.  This will seem to be 
revisited as Vold will try to set that particular snake on Harry, but 
the snake will remember Harry gave him his freedom (or something like 
that)....  Hmm.    

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., meckelburg at f... wrote:
> I just looked into FB and compared it with the description of 
> Crookshanks in PoA. His fur is not fleck , spotted etc. and he 
doesn't have anlion-like tail either, so it will never be a pure 
Kneazle. I'm wondering which magical powers are lefter when Kneazles 
are interbred with cats? Crookshanks flat face doesn't fit into the 
description either !
> ( I don't have an english PoA -version, so please correct me if the 
> german publishers goofed again. I'll positivly kill them this 
time!;)
> 
> Mecki 

Right, seems to be a given that Crookshanks doesn't have the 
appearance of a Kneazle.  Seems a rather pointed clue from JKR, 
however, that they can inter-breed with regular cats, though.  I'm 
confusing info JKR has given in chats and so forth, with the group's 
thoughts and theories--did JKR confirm that there was more to 
Crookshanks than meets the eye, or did we just figure that?  The 
closest I've found (in my notes from the October online chats) is 
that she stated that cats will 'be important' or 'figure prominently' 
in the future.  (Don't have her response down verbatim.)  I may just 
be recalling the "Is Crookshanks an animagi?" debate from some months 
back.  Sorry for wandering so far from your post, there, Mecki.  I'd 
guess that Crookshanks looking like a regular, albeit strange, cat is 
intentional, and when it's revealed that he is part Kneazle, that it 
will be a revelation to the trio.  I would also guess that he will 
have all the abilities that pure Kneazles have, mainly because I 
think this is JKR sowing seeds now that will be reaped later.  Did 
that make sense? ;)

Kelley




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 29 22:45:49 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:45:49 -0000
Subject: Ginny telling TGHP where to get off
Message-ID: <9a0duu+mrf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15547

Cassie wrote:

>I bet she'd really like some character 
>development where she got to be brave, or do something interesting, 
>or maybe got to tell the Great Harry Potter where to get off, just 
>once.

Sigh.  Didn't I already give a good example?  Okay, I'll write it 
out.  This is from memory so please don't jump on me for getting my 
prepositions wrong!

Ron, Harry, and Ginny in the common room.  Hermione comes in and asks 
what's wrong.  Ginny:

"'"They're upset?oh, shut up laughing, you two?they're upset because 
they both just got turned down by girls they asked to the Ball!'

"That shut Ron and Harry up."

Sounds like a pretty good telling-where-to-get-off to me.  Ginny's 
pretty feisty for a boring wimp.  We definitely would need to know 
more about her to be certain, but so far I would say the text and 
subtext is that Ginny is not one to be all supporter and no self.

I'll add another point in Ginny's favor:  how close she comes to 
telling Ron and Harry what's going on with the diary.  She has been 
cursed by a very powerful wizard--she and we may think she is only 
held back by shame, but I think there's more going on.  This is very 
late in the book, and she is almost entirely under Riddle's control 
at this point, so telling them requires a strength of will like that 
required to throw off the Imperius Curse.  She does pretty well IMO.

Amy Z




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 22:51:33 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:51:33 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, Ashwinders
Message-ID: <50.137f3092.27f51675@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15548

In a message dated 3/29/01 2:30:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com writes:


> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> > > Part Kneazle.. I think that's brilliant. The other thing I 
> noticed in the book was that there were a half dozen types of snakes, 
> and they all have interesting abilities.. I don't know why, but I 
> think we're going to see an Ashwinder in the next book. It just 
> seemes like JKR had it's story planned out in a bit too much detail, 
> and it's power for making love potions is just too interesting. 
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> Ashwinders:  Argh!  Don't have my FB with me to refer to the 
> description.  The 'love potion' bit ~is~ a terrific detail; I'd love 
> to see this brought into the story.  Your comment about the many 
> varieties of snakes is interesting, and has got me thinking.  I know 
> we've discussed various thoughts on snakes within the storyline; can 
> anyone give me a quick answer:  is the Slytherin mascot specifically 
> a basilisk, or just a snake in general?  What I'm remembering is that 
> the when snakes are mentioned in the books, they're referred to as a 
> snake in the general sense, and the only times specific types are 
> mentioned are the boa constrictor at the zoo, and the basilisk in the 
> Chamber.  Thinking ahead to the coming VWII, we'll probably see Vold 
> using snakes against good guys, and I believe someone proposed that 
> maybe the boa constrictor will resurface.  This will seem to be 
> revisited as Vold will try to set that particular snake on Harry, but 
> the snake will remember Harry gave him his freedom (or something like 
> that)....  Hmm.    
> 

I'm 90% sure it's just a snake.. In FB it says that Basilisks must be 
specifically breed, are very uncommon, and are associated with dark wizards.. 
I don't think it would make sense for one to be their mascot.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 22:56:23 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:56:23 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggleparents and Diagon Alley
Message-ID: <10.adc6199.27f51797@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15549

In a message dated 3/29/01 2:10:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk writes:


> > I get your point about the empty space - either side of the street 
> is 
> > > theatres, shops, restaurants and office space, so you are right 
> > about 
> > > the lack of empty space to fill.  I have a theory.  Remember in 
> CoS 
> > > when they all drive off to Kings Cross in Arthur Weaseley's 
> flying 
> > > car?  And how spacious it is inside, so a normal Ford can hold 8 
> > > people comfortably and all their luggage?  I think the same 
> > > manipulation of space is going on in the non-Muggle areas.  
> Rather 
> > > like a TARDIS.  (Did you get Dr Who in the USA?  If not I can 
> > explain 
> > > the reference.)
> 

This reminds me of my score in the Harry Potter obsessive thing.. I'm about 
82 percent obsesive. Is that pretty high? I think it is. Good, I'm proud :) I 
think I got a lot of points for saying that I've spent an afternoon searching 
for Diagon Alley, even though I don't live in the UK.. If only I'd had the 
time to make it to King's Cross, too :(  Anyway, I think I'd probably be a 
solid 95% if I had the financial means to follow JKR around the world. Oh 
well, maybe someday.

Oh.. and about the actual topic, I always thought that the entance to Diagon 
Alley was disguised  as a store we could see, but that had Muggle-repelling 
charms on it so noby ever entered, and other kinds of charms so that it looks 
innocuous.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 29 23:01:48 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:01:48 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggleparents and Diagon Alley
References: <9a0710+naid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC3BEDB.7927181F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15550

jennifer.k at lycos.com wrote:

> Has there never been one single muggleparent (either married to a
> wizard/witch or just belonging to a mugglefamily given a magical
> child) who when the letter from Hogwarts arriwed when the kid was
> eleven, tried to expose the wizarding world - yelling out about it to
> the entire world? Either just to get noticed/famous, or beacuse of the
> reason Hagrid mentioned in book 1: "Everybody would like to have
> magical sollutions to their problems" (something like it). I do not
> doubt there is people who?d do it in a second, if they had anything to
> gain from it.

The Ministry of Magic clandestinely underwrites several prominent Muggle
publications: the Star, National Enquirer, etc. They make certain that
such mouthy muggles are given prominent coverage in such publications,
which guarantees that the serious Muggle world ignores them.

--Amanda (not canon, but it *should* be...)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Mar 29 23:05:01 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:05:01 -0000
Subject: Ginny telling TGHP where to get off
In-Reply-To: <9a0duu+mrf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a0f2t+e23j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15551

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Cassie wrote:
> 
> >I bet she'd really like some character 
> >development where she got to be brave, or do something 
interesting, 
> >or maybe got to tell the Great Harry Potter where to get off, just 
> >once.
> 
> Sigh.  Didn't I already give a good example?  Okay, I'll write it 
> out.  This is from memory so please don't jump on me for getting my 
> prepositions wrong!

---------------------------
I promise not to jump on you. I remember this scene has already been 
mentioned, by you and by others. I'd agree with Penny's 
interpretation of it "Then, we have Ginny's one shining moment in the 
pre-Yule Ball scene." I also think of it as her one shining moment 
and it gives me a glimmer of hope for her in the future. I don't 
really think of it as a telling-Harry-where-to-get-off scene; she's 
being a little feisty, towards him and Ron, but I doubt she would 
have said anything if it had been just Harry there, and she hadn't 
been semi-exasperated with Ron about his general attitude about the 
Ball. It's a nice little moment, but I was thinking of something 
larger-scale, something that would show she's outgrown her hero-
worshipping infatuation with Harry; IMHO, that scene doesn't quite 
show that. But it certainly is a jump-off point for hopes for the 
future.

And I already took back the boring wimp comment! Peace! Pax!

Cassie




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 29 23:15:28 2001
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:15:28 -0000
Subject: Ginny telling TGHP where to get off
In-Reply-To: <9a0f2t+e23j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a0fmg+cucf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15552

Cassie wrote:

> It's a nice little moment, but I was thinking of something 
> larger-scale, something that would show she's outgrown her hero-
> worshipping infatuation with Harry; IMHO, that scene doesn't quite 
> show that. But it certainly is a jump-off point for hopes for the 
> future.

Agreed.  I think we can all agree that we want to see a lot more of 
Ginny before we can draw any conclusions.  
 
> And I already took back the boring wimp comment! Peace! Pax!

Sorry!  I should never respond when I'm not totally caught up with 
posts . . . pax, peace, paix, salaam!

Amy Z

P.S.  Does this mean we can't quote "boring wimp" anymore?  It had 
the makings of a catchphrase . . . OBHWF, HGTG, BW . . . oh well.




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Fri Mar 30 00:53:20 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 00:53:20 -0000
Subject: FF (a bit):  Heir of Gryffindor? 
In-Reply-To: <99tkfb+s73l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a0le0+isq7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15553

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., sabrina_myst at y... wrote:
> All right.  I'm a newbie here, so please don't murder me if this 
has  been over-discussed in the past... anyway.  Although I don't 
know you  guys' opinions on this, it seems that a majority of 
FanFiction.net  believes that Harry, through James, is a descendant 
of Godric  Gryffindor - probably popularised by DD&DS.  Further 
extrapolation  leads to the conclusion that this is the reason 
Voldemort wanted to  kill James and Harry, but not Lily.  Now, I know 
this is a perfectly  logical theory and all - but I, personally, hate 
it!  


*crossly* I get blamed for everything. Characters wearing leather, 
Ginny/Draco romances, the works. I cannot be the first person to 
write a fanfic where Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. Note that in 
DD/DS Harry being the Heir of Gryffindor has zero, zip, zilch to do 
with Voldemort wanting to kill him. And onward...


Sabrina: My first and foremost reason that this school of thought is 
going be sadly disappointed in future books is, simply, it's not 
JK's  style.  Moan and groan all you like - if 95% of online HP fans 
> believe it, it probably won't make a very good plot twist, and JK 
> hinted through Dumbledore in PS/SS that the reason Voldemort was 
> after Harry is going to be a major twist.  

Harry being the Heir of Gryffindor does not necessarily have to have 
anything to do with why Voldemort was after him. Then again, it 
might. This *has* been discussed a great deal before, and as usual 
we've all come to the conclusion that there is no conclusion. Some 
points from old threads:

IIRC, these are the evidences people have presented for Harry being 
the Heir of Gryffindor: he's in Gryffindor, he pulled Godric's sword 
out of the Sorting Hat, His parents lived in Godric's Hollow; when he 
got his wand, it shot red and gold sparks,  which are the colours for 
Gryffindor, and he was born under Leo, the constellation of the 
lion, which is the animal for Gryffindor; Dumbledore told him he was 
a "true" Gryffindor. There's probably more but I can't be bothered to 
look for it.

I'm not saying these are my arguments, either, just that these are 
among those that have been presented.

I would be surprised if the sole reason that Voldemort wanted Harry 
dead was because he was the Heir of Gryffindor, but I would not be 
surprised if Harry turned out to be the Heir of Gryffindor. It might 
simply not be that big a part of the plot. She's a pretty 
unpredictable writer, that JKR, but not everything is a neck-
wrenching twist. Lockhart seemed like a jerk at the beginning of Book 
2, and he turned out to be a jerk. No surprises there.

Sabrina: Reason No. 2 concerns the sheer impossibility of it.  How on 
earth   can someone like Voldemort try to wipe out all the Gryffindor 
blood  on the planet?  It's easy for him to declare himself the Heir 
of   Slytherin - even though we basically have only his word for 
that,  it's perfectly plausible - but there are also probably 
thousands of  Heirs of Slytherin who just haven't bothered to trace 
back their  ancestry, and of course the same would go for 
Gryffindor.  I can  trace back to one of my ancestors in the circa-
Founder period, and I   also have a thirty-page album filled with 
nothing but the names,   birth and death dates, and children of that 
person's descendants.  So  it would be pretty mad to try and track 
down and wipe out all  Gryffindor blood, or even go after someone 
because of it, because by  the time a thousand years have passed it's 
plausible that even some  of the Death Eaters have Gryffindor blood.  
Now, Voldemort may be an  insane sociopath, but he's not stupid, or 
at least not as stupid as  many would think.  He would probably know 
the sheer insanity of this.


I have actually never heard the argument that Voldemort wanted to 
kill Harry because he was trying to wipe out all traces of Gryffindor 
blood. IMHO, that makes little sense, although in a world where 
Dumbledore can confidently assert that Voldemort "is the last 
descendant of Slytherin" your argument about the difficulty of 
tracking down all living descendants of Gryffindor doesn't 
necessarily hold up. How do you know there's not some spell, be it 
simple or complex, that would pinpoint where they all are on a map? 
Thus negating the need for tedious searches through genealogy books 
and for Voldemort to renew his library card, which has doubtless 
expired.

Also, like I said before, Harry being the Heir of Gryffindor might 
not be at all related to Voldemort wanting to kill him. Or, say it 
was related, it doesn't necessarily mean that Voldemort wants to wipe 
out everyone with Gryffindor blood. We don't know what being an Heir 
entails, do we? We don't know if everyone descended from Slytherin is 
automatically an Heir of Slytherin, or if it's a random factor that 
appears every few generations, like a genetically linked disease, and 
Voldemort had some kind of magical alarm system that was tripped when 
a new Heir of Gryffindor was born. Now, I really don't believe that, 
I'm just saying it's narratively possible. I have yet to see an 
argument that convinces me that Harry is *definitely* the Heir of 
Gryffindor, and I have yet to see any argument that convinces me that 
he definitely isn't.

Cassandra





From aprilgc at ivillage.com  Fri Mar 30 01:36:53 2001
From: aprilgc at ivillage.com (aprilgc at ivillage.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:36:53 -0000
Subject: Percy and DADA
Message-ID: <9a0nvl+nsnk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15554

We've been discussing a lot lately the possibility that Percy may 
become a pawn of the dark side <g>.  It made me wonder how prepared he 
is for that possibility.
My train:
Gred and Forge are getting the same lessons from "Moody" as the Trio 
are - even though they're not in the same year - but Percy's not there 
for Moody's practical lessons.
Lupin -the year before (Percy's last year) - probably gave the 7th 
years whatever they needed, but would not have been able to make up for 
...
Lockhart - who probably taught all his classes the same way as he had 
no knowledge to give them and
Quirrell - who knew things about the DA, but only had the students 
doing book learning and was "afraid" of his own subject.

I don't think we know how long Quirrell was there, or the skill of his 
predecessor.  I guess I'm wondering if Percy would recognize the 
Imperio if someone tried to use it on him - and if he would know how to 
fight it if he did recognize it.

a. 





From Zarleycat at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 01:50:59 2001
From: Zarleycat at aol.com (Zarleycat at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:50:59 -0000
Subject: Random thoughts - of blood and Parseltongue
In-Reply-To: <3AC2A0AF.C119E16F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9a0oq3+aaa8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15555

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Sabrina Myst wrote:
> 
snip
 
> It has been postulated (by me, but I think I was echoing someone 
else)> that what Harry has gained by this is the ability to actually 
defeat> Voldemort. It's been made pretty obvious that there's 
precious little of the human Tom Riddle in the all-but-immortal 
Voldemort. He himself mentions the changes and things he went 
through. It may be that since he and Harry have shared powers, and 
now share blood, that Harry is the only person who would be capable 
of killing him. The look of triumph may be that Voldemort has just 
opened the door for his own permanent downfall.
> 
> Which reopens that whole "but do we *want* Harry to kill?" thing 
again.
> I think he may have to.
> 
> --Amanda

I think he may have to kill, also.  Hasn't JKR said somewhere, 
sometime that one of the themes of the next few books is that people 
have to do what it right, even if that choice is difficult, rather 
than take the easy way out?  

I also can't help but wonder what the Marauders were doing in the 
fight against Voldemort once they were out of Hogwarts.  Somehow I 
can't see them all sitting at desks at the MOM reading and 
formulating theories.  I have absolutely no canon to fall back on 
here, but I will not be at all surprised if we find out that James, 
Lily, etal, had to take on some ugly tasks in the fight against evil. 
Harry may find himself in a similar situation.

Marianne  
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cryptykgrl at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 02:12:26 2001
From: cryptykgrl at aol.com (cryptykgrl at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:12:26 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Summer School? QTA spoiler
Message-ID: <e1.1266502c.27f5458a@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15556


In a message dated 3/29/01 1:52:54 AM, tobeybickle at aol.com writes:

> > 
>> A couple more Question though: Why would Mrs. Pince date a book due to
>
>> return on a  day Hogwarts was closed? And how can Pupils get to the 
>> Libaray if hogwarts was closed.
>> So I think you're right: It was probably a mistake ;)
>> 

Also, this has nothing to do with returning books, but I picked up QTA in a 
store (haven't had a chance to buy it yet, sadly), and in the front cover, 
there was a list of people who have checked it out.  Towards the end of the 
list was our very own Harry Potter.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't 
Harry own this book?  I remember reading about him reading the book...of 
course...it is possible that he was reading "Flying with the Cannons" or 
whatever that book is called.  I really wish I had access to my copy of GoF 
right now.
Erin



From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 02:18:03 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:18:03 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Summer School? QTA spoiler
References: <e1.1266502c.27f5458a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <013801c0b8bf$a68d0d20$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15557

I know that in SS/PS Harry has borrowed it from the library, and Snape
picked it up from them, and took it (while they were in the courtyard with
the blue-fire in the jar).  It wasn't his then.

He did receive a Quidditch book later, and IIRC, it was QtA, but I could be
wrong (birthday present, or was that the broomstick kit?  Argh....Need to
re-read them again!)

:)

Dee
Who wants her copy reallllllly realllllly badly!


----- Original Message -----
From: <cryptykgrl at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Summer School? QTA spoiler


>
> In a message dated 3/29/01 1:52:54 AM, tobeybickle at aol.com writes:
>
> > >
> >> A couple more Question though: Why would Mrs. Pince date a book due to
> >
> >> return on a  day Hogwarts was closed? And how can Pupils get to the
> >> Libaray if hogwarts was closed.
> >> So I think you're right: It was probably a mistake ;)
> >>
>
> Also, this has nothing to do with returning books, but I picked up QTA in
a
> store (haven't had a chance to buy it yet, sadly), and in the front cover,
> there was a list of people who have checked it out.  Towards the end of
the
> list was our very own Harry Potter.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't
> Harry own this book?  I remember reading about him reading the book...of
> course...it is possible that he was reading "Flying with the Cannons" or
> whatever that book is called.  I really wish I had access to my copy of
GoF
> right now.
> Erin
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
join now! For more details, contact the Moderator Team at
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com.
>
> (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com)
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 02:22:31 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 02:22:31 -0000
Subject: Summer School? QTA spoiler
In-Reply-To: <e1.1266502c.27f5458a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9a0ql7+tpa2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15558

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., cryptykgrl at a... wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 3/29/01 1:52:54 AM, tobeybickle at a... writes:
> 
> > > 
> >> A couple more Question though: Why would Mrs. Pince date a book 
due to
> >
> >> return on a  day Hogwarts was closed? And how can Pupils get to 
the 
> >> Libaray if hogwarts was closed.
> >> So I think you're right: It was probably a mistake ;)
> >> 
> 
> Also, this has nothing to do with returning books, but I picked up 
QTA in a 
> store (haven't had a chance to buy it yet, sadly), and in the front 
cover, 
> there was a list of people who have checked it out.  Towards the 
end of the 
> list was our very own Harry Potter.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but 
doesn't 
> Harry own this book?  I remember reading about him reading the 
book...of 
> course...it is possible that he was reading "Flying with the 
Cannons" or 
> whatever that book is called.  I really wish I had access to my 
copy of GoF 
> right now.
> Erin

No, Harry doesn't own QTA. Hermione found it in the library for him - 
and I think it was first mentioned in SS. 

Heather M.




From margdean at erols.com  Fri Mar 30 03:19:41 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:19:41 -0500
Subject: Diagon Alley
References: <9a0ad7+5qh9@eGroups.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010329140423.00bbaa70@vquill.com>
Message-ID: <3AC3FB4D.AF8E0837@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15559

Katie Kearns wrote:

> Well, I'm not sure you need to have watched Dr. Who (though it does help
> you get wacky references to Daleks), but I think your point is just "What
> if Diagon alley really didn't take up any space at all, through magic".
> 
> If you like to play role-playing games, think of it like a dimensional
> pocket or a bag of holding or something.

Or take a hint from the name and think of it as going off on a
diagonal from the usual three dimensions of the muggle world. 
(And then Knockturn Alley branches off of =it.=)


--Margaret Dean, who's also been a Doctor Who fan in her time...
  <margdean at erols.com>



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar 30 03:32:49 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 03:32:49 -0000
Subject: Filk-Haters (was: Snape's Task, etc)
In-Reply-To: <99vtcd+471a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a0up1+475v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15560

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., irbohlen at e... wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been reading this list for a week now and want to say how
> pleasant and thoughtful you all are! Great comments and questions!
> I appreciate  the subject tags, too, as I am highly allergic to 
filk 


The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night
And his affections dark as Erebus:
Let no such man be trusted. Mark the music.

  - Merchant of Venice, V,i


> and fanfic.;)


If one were to examine the surviving works of the great Greek 
tragedians, we would be at a loss to discover a single original story 
among them.  Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides based their immortal 
theatrical dramatizations on the pre-fabricated creations of their 
culture's mythology. In other words: FANFIC!!!!!

And the same is true of Shakespeare, who has at best two original 
stories (i.e., The Tempest and Love's Labours Lost) among his entire 
37-play (give or take) output. As Max Beerbohm wrote (while 
impersonating George Bernard Shaw) in A Christmas Garland, "You don't 
suppose that Shakespeare was so vacant in the upper story that there 
was nothing for it but to rummage through cinquecento romances, 
Townley Mysteries,and such-like insanitary rubbish-heaps, in order 
that he might fish out enough scraps for his artistic fangs to fasten 
on. Depend on it, there were plenty of decent original notions 
seeting behind yon marble brow. Why didn't our William use them? He 
was too lazy. And so am I. It is easier to give a new twist to 
somebody else's story that you take readymade than to perform that 
highly specialized form of skilled labor which consists of giving 
artistic coherence to a story that you have conceived roughly for 
yourself.....In so far as I am an artist, I am a loafer. And if you 
expect me, in that line, to do anything but loaf, you will get the 
shock your romantic folly deserves."

On behalf of my fellow HP4GU loafers, 


   - CMC 






From aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca  Fri Mar 30 03:57:56 2001
From: aboyko at nb.sympatico.ca (Angela Boyko)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:57:56 -0400
Subject: If You Wanna Be a Dursley (filk)
Message-ID: <3AC40444.FAE918F0@nb.sympatico.ca>

No: HPFGUIDX 15561

If You Wanna Be a Dursley (filk)

To the tune of "Wannabe" by the Spice Girls

Dedicated to Caius Marcius

The scene: Petunia Dursley opens her front door and discovers baby Harry
on the doorstep. She screams, Vernon comes running,

Vernon: Petunia, why did you scream? The neighbours must have heard you?

(Music starts)

Petunia:  Vern, I'll tell you why I screamed, why I really really
screamed,
Vernon:	  So tell me why you screamed, why you really really screamed
Petunia:  It's very very horrid, so very very horrid
Vernon:	  So, tell me what's so horrid, so very very horrid
Petunia:  It's the [what?], It's the [what?], It's the [what?], It's the
[what?]
          It's Lily & James' baby boy, on our doorstep!

(Petunia stares firmly at Harry as Vernon grabs the letter Dumbledore
left and reads it)

Petunia:  If you want a home here, forget about that
          If you wanna get with us, we don't need a brat
          Now don't go thinking, we want your kind here
          Why would we ever want, your diapered rear?

Vernon:	  I'll tell what I read, what the letter really really said
Petunia:  So tell me what you read, what the letter really really said
Vernon:	  It says that, it says that, it says that, it says that
          We have to really really really really, take the boy in

Vernon:   Now how about that? It makes me mad,
          Bringing up the boy, I won't be his dad
          I dislike his kind, oh yes I do
          Dumping that boy here like a ruddy shoe

(Vernon & Petunia sing to Harry)

If you wanna be a Dursley, get with our type
Don't be doing funny stuff, we'll hit you with a pipe
If you wanna be a Dursley, you must fit in
Or we'll be stuffing you, into the dustbin

(Fast forward eight and half years. Dudley is bullying Harry in the
living room)

Dudley:   So here's the story from A to - uh
          You wanna turn age ten, you gotta watch it, uh huh,
          Mummy loves me, she hates the sight of your face
          Dadsie loathes you, he thinks you're a disgrace
          I'm Dudley D, I'm the prince of the house
          And as for you, why yer a louse!

(Vernon and Petunia enter, and the three Dursleys sing to Harry)

Get in your cupboard, under the stairs!
Get in your cupboard, under the stairs!
-- 
Behold Angela the Brave!		ICQ: 65588507
New Brunswick, Canada, eh?		AIM: angelamermaid
http://www.geocities.com/ochfd42/index.html
  "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs
should relax and get used to the idea."   Robert A. Heinlein



From john at walton.to  Fri Mar 30 04:01:00 2001
From: john at walton.to (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:01:00 -0500
Subject: Fanfic (was: Filk-Haters)
In-Reply-To: <9a0up1+475v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B6E96ECC.175E%john@walton.to>

No: HPFGUIDX 15562

Caius Marcius said:

> If one were to examine the surviving works of the great Greek
> tragedians, we would be at a loss to discover a single original story
> among them.  Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides based their immortal
> theatrical dramatizations on the pre-fabricated creations of their
> culture's mythology. In other words: FANFIC!!!!!
> 
> And the same is true of Shakespeare, who has at best two original
> stories (i.e., The Tempest and Love's Labours Lost) among his entire
> 37-play (give or take) output.

::evil grin:: So...that means that, while JKR will have disappeared in 2500,
HP Fanfic will still be around? ::jumps for the keyboard and keeps typing::

--John




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar 30 04:10:02 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 04:10:02 -0000
Subject: Fanfic (was: Filk-Haters)
In-Reply-To: <B6E96ECC.175E%john@walton.to>
Message-ID: <9a10uq+qu2r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15563

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> Caius Marcius said:
Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides based their immortal
> > theatrical dramatizations on the pre-fabricated creations of their
> > culture's mythology. In other words: FANFIC!!!!!

> 
> ::evil grin:: So...that means that, while JKR will have disappeared 
in 2500,
> HP Fanfic will still be around? ::jumps for the keyboard and keeps 
typing::
> 

It is interesting - especially in light of the controversy over canon-
Draco vs. fanfic Draco - to note the wide range of variability that 
the Greek tragedians demonstrated in portraying their characters. 
Compare, for example, the noble and heroically anguished Orestes of 
Aeschylus' Eumenides with the psychotic and sociopathic Orestes of 
Euripides (in the play of the same name). 

  - CMC 




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 30 04:24:43 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:24:43 -0800
Subject: Quirrell (was: [HPforGrownups] Percy and DADA)
In-Reply-To: <9a0nvl+nsnk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329200443.03202bd0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15564

At 01:36 AM 3/30/01 +0000, aprilgc at ivillage.com wrote:
>I don't think we know how long Quirrell was there, or the skill of his
>predecessor.

How long *was* he at Hogwarts??  In his speech to the DE's, Voldy
implies it was longer than a year -- "He was [as opposed to "would be"]
a teacher at Dumbledore's school."  But then, why wasn't anyone suspicious
that at the start of Harry's first year he was stammering all of a sudden?



                                                 -- Dave




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 30 04:29:01 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:29:01 -0800
Subject: Voldemort's face and voice
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329202514.0304fef0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15565

Does anyone else here have trouble imagining what the nearly-reborn
Dark Lord looks and sounds like?  We know his face is "snake-like"
but what does that mean?  The creature I've seen visually that keeps
coming into my mind is the Genie-hating Muktaar from Disney's _Aladdin_
TV series, which has a snakey face and even a snakey voice, and it is usually
this face (with darker skin and contorted into even more evil expressions)
that materializes in my occasional Voldy nightmares.  But is it what JKR
has in mind?  And what about his voice?  Jo insists it's high-pitched,
even though the Evil Dark Lord's Manual generally recommends
a deep, Darth Vader-like voice. :)  The only truly evil guy with a 
high-pitched
voice that comes to mind is Alan Arkin as the #1 baddie in the movie
_Wait Until Dark_, which doesn't seem to fit... Though I *can* hear
him say, "Now, Now Harry, the niceities must be observed."

Anyone care to share how You-Know-Who looks and sounds in your
own mind?


                                                 -- Dave




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Fri Mar 30 04:23:59 2001
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 04:23:59 -0000
Subject: Issues About Memory
Message-ID: <9a11ov+klmb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15566

Some memory-related inquiries:

We know that the MOM devotes a serious amount of time and effort to 
erasing the memory of Muggles (Yikes! Talk about thought-control!) 
who chance to witness magical creatures or events. Yet there are some 
Muggles whose memories remain uncontaminated.  Primarily, of course, 
the Dursleys - the MOM seems confident enough that these 
quintessential Muggles are so resolute in their refusal to 
acknowledge the alternate Wizardly society, that to erase their 
memories would be carrying coals to Newcastle. In Chapter 3 of PoA, 
Fudge tells Harry "You will be pleased to hear that we have dealt 
with the unfortunate blowing-up of Miss Marjorie Dursley. Two members 
of the Accidental Magic Reversal Department were dispatched to Privet 
Drive a few hours ago. Miss Dursley has been punctured and her memory 
has been modified. She has no recollection of the incident at all. So 
that's that, and no harm done." 

But though Aunt Marge was purged of her memories, there is no mention 
that Vernon, Petunia or even Dudley had their memories similarly 
treated. Fudge says just a bit later in Ch. 3 "Ah, you're worrying 
about the reaction of your aunt and uncle?

.Well, I won't deny that 
they are extremely angry, Harry, but they are prepared to take you 
back next summer as long as you stay at Hogwarts for the Christmas 
and Easter holidays."  This certainly implies that they remember the 
full circumstances of Aunt Marge's mishap.  Similarly in Ch. 5 of 
CoS, in the aftermath of the Flying Ford episode, Dumbledore tells 
Harry and Ron that he will be writing to both their families about 
that misadventure: though of course the difference is that Ron's 
parents will be seriously and appropriately concerned, while with the 
Dursleys, "Harry knew perfectly well they'd just be disappointed that 
the Whomping Willow hadn't squashed him flat." 

A clue may be in Ch. 4 of CoS, when Hermione's parents are visiting 
Diagon Alley. They seem to be given full access to it. Perhaps 
parental rights in the Wizarding world trumps even the MOM's desire 
to preserve its secrecy.

Second memory point: During BC Jr.'s de-briefing in GoF Ch. 35, 
Crouch tells how his father's Memory Charm which he cast on Bertha 
Jorkins, "damaged her memory permanently."  It is somehow implied 
that this left her especially vulnerable - to the point that she had 
to be killed - when she was later interrogated by Voldemort.  JKR 
does not clarify the specifics about the damage that Bertha 
suffered.  It does not seem to be the same sort of injury that 
Lockhart sustained in CoS, when his spell boomeranged on him: this 
resulted in Lockhart losing all memory of his own identity.  There is 
no suggestion that Bertha's identity was erased.  Just how was her 
memory damaged? (Did she lose things more often or what?)

   - CMC
 








From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 30 04:32:06 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:32:06 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <99vtcd+471a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329203051.03075ee0@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15567

At 06:02 PM 3/29/01 +0000, irbohlen at email.unc.edu wrote:
>Secondly, [and this _is_ someone else's idea, but I can't find it or
>any responses] what if Snape's task were to go back to Voldemort as
>Barty Crouch Jr.? Is there any way Lord V could know that Barty has
>been "kissed"? Snape could brew up some Polyjuice Potion, and return
>to Lord V as his most faithful lieutenant, rather than his own
>disgraced self..

I never thought of that!  You may be right.  It would certainly
save Snape the peril of trying to convince V that he's really on
his side.



                                                 -- Dave




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Fri Mar 30 04:47:03 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 04:47:03 -0000
Subject: Fanfic (was: Filk-Haters)
In-Reply-To: <9a10uq+qu2r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a1347+eft6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15568

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> > Caius Marcius said:
> Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides based their immortal
> > > theatrical dramatizations on the pre-fabricated creations of 
their
> > > culture's mythology. In other words: FANFIC!!!!!

> It is interesting - especially in light of the controversy over 
canon-
> Draco vs. fanfic Draco - to note the wide range of variability that 
> the Greek tragedians demonstrated in portraying their characters. 
> Compare, for example, the noble and heroically anguished Orestes of 
> Aeschylus' Eumenides with the psychotic and sociopathic Orestes of 
> Euripides (in the play of the same name). 
> 
>   - CMC

-----------------------
Not to mention Sophocles' lesser-known work, "Orestes Wears Leather 
Pants."

Cassie




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 30 04:56:36 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:56:36 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Books burnt in Germany too!!
In-Reply-To: <99v7ek+ti83@eGroups.com>
References: <6d.117d7535.27f478f3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329203443.030c4100@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15569

At 11:48 AM 3/29/01 +0000, catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk wrote:
>They may not be fundamentally Christian in
>perspective, but they cover the same issues of good/evil,
>right/wrong, and I would go further and say that perhaps they cover
>the grey areas in a much more realistic way.   Perhaps if JKR taught
>theology at a dusty old Oxford (or was it Cambridge?) College, then
>her work would be viewed differently.

I stand by my theory that the "Satanism/Blasphemy" is not what
really disturbs these guys...  It's the assertion in these books
that "It's the choices we make that shows who we are," and the
advocacy of defying authority when that authority is in the
wrong.  Both of these are concepts that undermine the church's
control of its members.  It's the same issue as with the
church's persecution of Galileo -- They didn't *really* give
a damn whether the Earth was at the center of the universe
or moved around the sun.  What really got under their skin was
that this "barmy old codger" :) was going around suggesting that
the chuch fathers should not necessarily be believed and obeyed
at all times without question.

>PS. My friend doesn't believe evolution or that dinosaurs existed
>either - church doctrine again.  Why???!

This is really funny since even most Creationists concede that dinosaurs
*must* have existed... They just say they never evolved from lower forms
and must have lived not millions of years ago but in some epoch since God
created the world starting on October 26, 4004 BC at 9 AM (They still
won't say whether that was Eastern, Central, or Pacific time). :)



                                                 -- Dave




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 30 04:48:43 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 04:48:43 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329203051.03075ee0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9a137b+6qde@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15570

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 06:02 PM 3/29/01 +0000, irbohlen at e... wrote:
> >Secondly, [and this _is_ someone else's idea, but I can't find it or
> >any responses] what if Snape's task were to go back to Voldemort as
> >Barty Crouch Jr.? Is there any way Lord V could know that Barty has
> >been "kissed"? Snape could brew up some Polyjuice Potion, and return
> >to Lord V as his most faithful lieutenant, rather than his own
> >disgraced self..
> 
> I never thought of that!  You may be right.  It would certainly
> save Snape the peril of trying to convince V that he's really on
> his side.

Great idea! But there must be some way of checking for polyjuice, 
because Voldemort states that the Ministry of Magic will be "checking 
and double checking identities" in GoF ch. 1 and sites this as the 
reason to delay the execution of his plans. Might Voldie be cautious 
enough to do some checking himself? 
Pippin





From meckelburg at foni.net  Fri Mar 30 06:49:17 2001
From: meckelburg at foni.net (meckelburg at foni.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 06:49:17 -0000
Subject: Voldemort's face and voice
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329202514.0304fef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9a1a9d+uaee@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15571

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> Does anyone else here have trouble imagining what the nearly-reborn
> Dark Lord looks and sounds like?  We know his face is "snake-like"
> but what does that mean?  The creature I've seen visually that keeps
> coming into my mind is the Genie-hating Muktaar from Disney's 
_Aladdin_
> TV series, which has a snakey face and even a snakey voice, and it 
is usually
> this face (with darker skin and contorted into even more evil 
expressions)
> that materializes in my occasional Voldy nightmares.  But is it what 
JKR
> has in mind?  And what about his voice?  Jo insists it's 
high-pitched,
> even though the Evil Dark Lord's Manual generally recommends
> a deep, Darth Vader-like voice. :)  The only truly evil guy with a 
> high-pitched
> voice that comes to mind is Alan Arkin as the #1 baddie in the movie
> _Wait Until Dark_, which doesn't seem to fit... Though I *can* hear
> him say, "Now, Now Harry, the niceities must be observed."
> 
> Anyone care to share how You-Know-Who looks and sounds in your
> own mind?
>                                                  -- Dave

I think voldy has a very deep, dark and echoing Voice in CoS and GoF 
and in future because he has a fullgrown body for resonance. When he 
has this baby-like body I'd describe it sort of like when my little 
2yeard old speaks in a hoarse, deep Voice to try and impress us- only 
of course with a very wicked undertone.

As for the looks of voldy before he's reborn. have you ever seen an 
Early-born child? My daughter was one, and she looked tiny, with 
really long (compared with the body) Arms and legs and nearly *old* in 
the face (she was beautiful though ). If you take that kind of body 
and make it purplish - dark, take the old/new face and remove the nose 
make slit-nostrils instead and replace the big, lovely baby- eyes with 
bright-red ones: Voila !! Here's Baby -Voldy !!

Any other opinions?

Mecki




From jferer at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 07:04:27 2001
From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:04:27 -0000
Subject: SHIP Harry & Ginny?
In-Reply-To: <005501c0b7c3$462e0260$b344d63f@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <9a1b5r+6875@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15572

I said, about Ginny:"Ginny is Molly Weasley's daughter, and she comes 
from a close-knit loving family. She's not going to be a wimp -- Molly 
sure isn't -- and  nobody's doormat, but she will love Harry with the 
kind of devotion  and passion that the quiet girls develop. (Note to 
younger male  members of this group: remember that.) She will always 
be there for  him, a healing balm, a safe harbor; and Harry will be 
good for her because he won't take her for granted."

Carole:" What exactly do you mean by "quiet girls"?  Not trying to 
sound offended (I'm not) but extremely curious. To characterize "quiet 
girls" as being ones  that will "always be there for him, a healing 
balm, a safe harbor" is a bit of an overgeneralization, don't you 
think?  Quiet women are not always passive and passive women are not 
always quiet."

Agreed. I wasn't generalizing that quiet girls will be like Ginny, who 
will always there for Harry; I *was* saying that the Ginny-esque girls 
were and are often overlooked.  It's Ginny's own family background 
that sets her apart and bodes well for her potential as a mate.  And 
Harry, being the all-around good guy that he is, will treat her right 
as well as his emotional state will allow. 

"She could be a party animal for all we know that will  take Harry's 
poor damaged heart and stomp it into the ground with her  stiletto.  I 
know...I know...not likely, but anything is possible."

THERE's an image, but we have to imagine these women based on what we 
see now, otherwise we might as well imagine Harry with the reformed 
and matured Millicent Balstrode.




From pandora_lily at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 07:08:16 2001
From: pandora_lily at yahoo.com (Seattle de Taeloure)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:08:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Lupin and the Marauder's Map
In-Reply-To: <3AC40444.FAE918F0@nb.sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20010330070816.29212.qmail@web512.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15573


I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet or not (I
do try to kep up, honest) but I was reading POA again
today, and I noticed something. Lupin tells Harry in
the Shreiking Shack that he saw him and Hermione on
the Marauder's Map going to visit Hagrid and then
going into the Whomping Willow.  Why, then, didn't he
see the OTHER Harry and Hermione in the Forbidden
Forest, too?  We know from Harry's Crouch Sr.
experience in GOF that the map covers at least the
outskirts of the forest.  Any theories?  Again, I hope
this wasn't already covered.

Raven

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From tobeybickle at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 07:12:08 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 02:12:08 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's face and voice
Message-ID: <22.13f4e7f4.27f58bc8@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15574

In the end of book 4, doesn't she say that voldemort's face is white with red 
eyes? I picture it being almost flat, with long horizontal slits for 
nostrals, and sunken pure-red eyes. The image came to me immediately. As for 
his voice being high.. it's easy for me to imagine what it sounds like: He 
sounds like a snake.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Fri Mar 30 07:16:25 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:16:25 -0000
Subject: Mrs. Figg and the Kneazle Brigade
In-Reply-To: <013b01c0b859$b0b29e70$1472023e@shasta>
Message-ID: <9a1bs9+9h5i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15575

I wrote:
> > My FB is loaned out, so I can't refer back to the
> > description, but if Mrs. F is there to keep an eye on Harry, 
which is what I think, then an army of Kneazle-cats with their 
ability to spot 'unsavoury characters' seems quite helpful.
> 
> Mr. Goat wrote:
> Hmm. I like that idea (and I'm sure Rita will like it even better!) 
A team of carefully trained attack Kneazles on 24 hour prowl duty 
might be part of what kept the Dursley's house a Death-Eater-free 
zone over the years. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Hahaha!  Please don't tell me my Kneazle theory came across as my 
thoughts on what was protecting Harry when he was on Privet Drive.  
That would just be too sad (for me).  How about, those Kneazles are 
Mrs. F's minions, helping her out by acting like a 'bad guy' alarm? 

> Mr. Goat: 
> But there must have been more to it, though. It'd be hard to 
characterize a bunch of slinking Kneazles as ancient magic Dumbledore 
invoked "to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his 
relations' care." <<<<<<<<<<<<<

No doubt about it.  Something to do with blood seems to be all I can 
come up with about that...  Yeah, I know, pretty weak.

> Quipped the Goat:
And besides: all Voldy would have had to do to get past them is sneak 
up with a wheelbarrow full of catnip ... <<<<<<<<<<
 
LOL!  That Voldy is clever, isn't he?  Wonder what effect catnip has 
on McG?  Any thoughts to this, Rita?  Does Hooch keep a supply on 
hand?....

Kelley




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 07:16:22 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 02:16:22 EST
Subject: Quirrell (was: [HPforGrownups] Percy and DADA)
Message-ID: <13.137d11f8.27f58cc6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15576

In a message dated 3/29/01 8:18:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes:


> >I don't think we know how long Quirrell was there, or the skill of his
> >predecessor.
> 
> How long *was* he at Hogwarts??  In his speech to the DE's, Voldy
> implies it was longer than a year -- "He was [as opposed to "would be"]
> a teacher at Dumbledore's school."  But then, why wasn't anyone suspicious
> that at the start of Harry's first year he was stammering all of a sudden?
> 
> 

I don't know the number of years there, but they explain why nobody wondered 
about his sudden studder.. I forget who, but I think it was Fred or George, 
but someone explained that he went on a trip during the summer (Which was how 
Voldemort got ahold of him) and came back talking about a werewolf that 
nearly killed him.. everyone assumed that was the reason for his strange 
behavior, and also the reason for him suddenly wearing a turban, which was 
supposedly full of dark-magic repellants because of his newfound fearfulness.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 07:32:11 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 02:32:11 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's face and voice
Message-ID: <50.137c566d.27f5907b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15577

In a message dated 3/29/01 11:20:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
meckelburg at foni.net writes:


> When he 
> has this baby-like body I'd describe it sort of like when my little 
> 2yeard old speaks in a hoarse, deep Voice to try and impress us- only 
> of course with a very wicked undertone.
> 
> As for the looks of voldy before he's reborn. have you ever seen an 
> Early-born child? My daughter was one, and she looked tiny, with 
> really long (compared with the body) Arms and legs and nearly *old* in 
> the face (she was beautiful though ). If you take that kind of body 
> and make it purplish - dark, take the old/new face and remove the nose 
> make slit-nostrils instead and replace the big, lovely baby- eyes with 
> bright-red ones: Voila !! Here's Baby -Voldy !!
> 
> 

Here's how I picture him in the infant body: Almost premature, like you 
describe, with over long arms, but under-long legs.. it should appear clear 
that he cannot walk on his own. As for his skin, it should look like a baby 
who has been burn to a crisp.. gruesome, I know, but I think that's what JKR 
was going for.. Dark black, almost like the egg or a Norwegian Ridgeback, 
only looking like it's about to peel off, deep bloody red that's almost black 
underneath the skin. He should look very much INJURED. His face should be 
flat, like I mentioned for the adult Voldemort, only with larger, bulbous 
eyes. The eyes should be about the same size in both versions, on in this 
form I think they could have black snake-like pupils. A cool touch would be a 
transparent second eyelid, like a snake, but there's no support for that from 
the book, it's just my own idea.

As for the voice, it should sound high and snake-like again, only more 
wheezing, and quieter.. Like a dying old man, only quiet enough that it can 
come convincingly from an infant body, and with enough of a sharp hiss that 
you can tell it's far from total helplessness.

There's my take on it :)

What do y'all think?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 08:39:35 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:39:35 +0200
Subject: Sympathy for the ... Christians (was Books burnt in Germany too!!)
References: <99vri7+15ic@eGroups.com> <023901c0b88b$ccac9040$5911eda9@kwan>
Message-ID: <006101c0b8f4$f40e4200$2271023e@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 15578

Alex wrote,

> > Burning books seems like an enormous waste of money and I hope this
> > was not done or condoned by any churches or there will be accusations
> > of hypocrisy again.
>
> It's not the money aspect I'm worried about.  I forgot who said it, but
> someone said something very similar to "the next step to burning books is
> burning people."  *That*'s the part I'm worried about.

This is may be drifting OT (if so, my apologies!), but I think one thing
should be mentioned here: burning books may be the first step down the slope
toward burning people. However, what's so great about *not* burning books?
What if *that* were a step down the slope toward not giving a damn about
noxious cultural influences? And if you'll grant that there *are* such
things as radically evil books (Mein Kampf, for instance), would it not be
appropriate to take a radical stand against them?

Most Christians share a committment to a particular understanding of
spirituality. Part of that understanding is our belief in a concrete and
active spiritual reality--including devils and demons. It follows that we
are genuinely concerned that dabbling with unknown spiritual quantities is
destructive to the dabbler's spritual well-being.

Of course, as a certified, 83% obsessed Harry Potter fan, I obviously think
these particular Christians are straining gnats, swallowing camels and
depriving themselves of a very enriching experience--but I still respect
their willingness to take a stand about spirituality.

Then again, I also respect the Afghan statue bombers for the same
reason--although I have even less capacity to relate to their world view ...
(In their case, the cultural vandalism is coupled with an active contempt of
human rights, which makes their behavior nearly as sickening as things we
Christians have done over the centuries ... )

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who often feels himself an odd man out
on both sides of the Christian divide. <bleat!>)
_______________________

"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising
inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers,
but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high."




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 08:49:21 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 03:49:21 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sympathy for the ... Christians (was Books burnt in Germa...
Message-ID: <c6.135f15f3.27f5a291@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15579

In a message dated 3/30/01 12:42:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com writes:


> Alex wrote,
> 
> > > Burning books seems like an enormous waste of money and I hope this
> > > was not done or condoned by any churches or there will be accusations
> > > of hypocrisy again.
> >
> > It's not the money aspect I'm worried about.  I forgot who said it, but
> > someone said something very similar to "the next step to burning books is
> > burning people."  *That*'s the part I'm worried about.
> 
> This is may be drifting OT (if so, my apologies!), but I think one thing
> should be mentioned here: burning books may be the first step down the slope
> toward burning people. However, what's so great about *not* burning books?
> What if *that* were a step down the slope toward not giving a damn about
> noxious cultural influences? And if you'll grant that there *are* such
> things as radically evil books (Mein Kampf, for instance), would it not be
> appropriate to take a radical stand against them?
> 
> Most Christians share a committment to a particular understanding of
> spirituality. Part of that understanding is our belief in a concrete and
> active spiritual reality--including devils and demons. It follows that we
> are genuinely concerned that dabbling with unknown spiritual quantities is
> destructive to the dabbler's spritual well-being.
> 
> Of course, as a certified, 83% obsessed Harry Potter fan, I obviously think
> these particular Christians are straining gnats, swallowing camels and
> depriving themselves of a very enriching experience--but I still respect
> their willingness to take a stand about spirituality.
> 
> Then again, I also respect the Afghan statue bombers for the same
> reason--although I have even less capacity to relate to their world view ...
> (In their case, the cultural vandalism is coupled with an active contempt of
> human rights, which makes their behavior nearly as sickening as things we
> Christians have done over the centuries ... )
> 
> Baaaaaa!
> 
> Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who often feels himself an odd man out
> on both sides of the Christian divide. <bleat!>)
> _______________________
> 

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. You can't combat evil by 
ignoring it, and burning Mein Kampf wouldn't have stop Hitler. Willful 
ignorance proves nothing. If you truely want to help against something you 
believe is wrong, you have to understand it first. And no amount of 
spirtitual conviction on your part allows you to dictate morality for others.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Mar 30 09:14:09 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:14:09 -0000
Subject: Another Ginny moment.
Message-ID: <9a1ip1+f116@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15580

Doing the ironing, listening to Stephen Fry's CDs of CoS and I heard:
Scene: Flourish and Blotts.  Harry has just been embarrassed by 
Lockhart and has given all his books to Ginny (Q: why her and none of 
the other Weasleys?)  Draco starts taunting Harry about the incident:
' "Leave him alone, he didn't want all that!" said Ginny.  It was the 
first time she had spoken in front of Harry.  She was glaring at 
Malfoy.'

One - She is hardly displaying here the wimpish qualities most of you 
endow her with.  Overcomes her embarrassment/shyness to stand up for 
Harry.
Two - She's perceptive enough to realise quite how embarrassing that 
incident was to Harry and that he doesn't court attention like that.
Three - she has just, in one fell swoop, laid her self open to taunts 
from Malfoy: "Potter, you've got yourself a girlfriend."  Does this 
have any bearing on the Valentine discussion?  (I'm making links 
here, and if its already been said, then I apologise: IMHO I don't 
think Ginny sent it.  She knows it would embarrass Harry and herself.)
Four - Harry seems to me to be unfailingly kind to Ginny.  He always 
notices how uncomfortable around him she is, and has the decency not 
to comment to Ron et al, probably knowing that they will tease 
mercilessly.
Ginny is much maligned!

In the words of JKR: "Poor Ginny, eh?"

Catherine, who hasn't given up hope of converting a few people out 
there...




From fmu30c at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 09:54:42 2001
From: fmu30c at yahoo.com (Rena)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:54:42 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FB/QTA  where to get 'em
References: <98osml+2jbg@eGroups.com> <006f01c0b87c$d9d8e660$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <020501c0b8ff$8ee334c0$98fe163f@rena>

No: HPFGUIDX 15581

I've seen quite a few at Waldenbooks

Rena


> Hi!
>
> Anyone other more traditional (aka Kmart, lol) ideas on where to
obtain the
> books?  My check comes in this weekend, and I PLAN to get them!
>
> Grins....
>
>
> Dee
>
> (Thinks Target, maybe, bookstores, definitely, but those are
generally
> harder to get to....etc)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Zarleycat at aol.com>
> To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 5:52 PM
> Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FB/QTA where to get 'em
>
>
> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Indigo" <indigo at i...> wrote:
> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Meredith Wilson
> > > <aviationoutreachcoord at m...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I ordered it ages ago, and I'm trying to be patient, but I
> > haven't
> > > gotten
> > > > them in the mail yet dang it!!
> > > >
> > > > Mer
> > >
> > > I found my copies at a local Wal-Mart because Amazon.Com sold
out
> > > (and they almost never go out of stock on stuff I like)
> > >
> > > Good luck!
> >
> > Borders.com still has them in stock.
> >
> > Marianne
> >
> >
> >
> > _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
> >
> > From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted
to the
> HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort
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> the messages they want to read and those they don't.
> >
> > Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages,
point
> your cyberbroomstick at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
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> >
> > (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to
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> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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>
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> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted
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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 10:51:45 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 02:51:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329203051.03075ee0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20010330105145.15361.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15582

>>Secondly, [and this _is_ someone else's idea, but I can't find it
>>or any responses] what if Snape's task were to go back to Voldemort
>>as Barty Crouch Jr.? 

> I never thought of that!  You may be right.  It would certainly
> save Snape the peril of trying to convince V that he's really on
> his side.

Wouldn't V already know that SNape had gone over to the other side
after the events of PS/SS when he had threatening private chats with
Quirrell and prevented Q from killing Harry?  

I like the impersonate Crouch Jr. argument.



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From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 11:53:13 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:53:13 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sympathy for the ... Christians (was Books burnt in Germa...
References: <c6.135f15f3.27f5a291@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c0b910$00641c30$2271023e@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 15583

Tobeybickle wrote,

> You can't combat evil by
> ignoring it, and burning Mein Kampf wouldn't have stop Hitler. Willful
> ignorance proves nothing. If you truely want to help against something you
> believe is wrong, you have to understand it first. And no amount of
> spirtitual conviction on your part allows you to dictate morality for
others.

If you mean destroying the bundle of dead tree bits, no, it wouldn't have.
But what if a lot of people had protested vigorously--and agrily--against
the book's contents ... ?

I *would* agree to one thing: I think protesting and banning are two very
different propositions. Even in the specific case of Mein Kampf (which is
banned in several European countries), I wonder whether the bannings don't
give it more allure than it deserves. Trying to ban excellent literature
that one hasn't even bothered to read is irrationaility in its most pure
distillation.

In any case, I think I'll bow out of the argument (or OT it). It was
important for me to make that point because I know several people who'd be
right up at the front of any HP burning and banning orgy. For the record, I
think they're nuts (particularly since some of them want to get a friend of
mine fired for a seminar supportive of HP). But I think people should have
some appreciation of where they're coming from and, in disagreeing with
them, show them the sort of respect I wish they'd show the undersigned,

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising
inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers,
but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high."




From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar 30 12:54:11 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 06:54:11 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
References: <9a137b+6qde@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC481F2.D5ACECA3@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15584

foxmoth at qnet.com wrote:

> Great idea! But there must be some way of checking for polyjuice,
> because Voldemort states that the Ministry of Magic will be "checking
> and double checking identities" in GoF ch. 1 and sites this as the
> reason to delay the execution of his plans. Might Voldie be cautious
> enough to do some checking himself?

There is a way to check for Polyjuice--it lasts exactly one hour. Just
lock the person you're suspicious of in a room with nothing to eat or
drink for two hours. Voila! The real McCoy. There may be a spell to
check for it, too, which nobody thought to use just randomly (much like
you don't do drug tests until there's a problem). Now that it's a "high
profile" method of disguise, after Barty Jr., they  might indeed be
checking for it. Both sides. Especially since it was probably
Voldemort's idea in the first place.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neptune_1984 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 13:12:05 2001
From: neptune_1984 at yahoo.com (Neptune)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 05:12:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Voldemort's Face and Voice
In-Reply-To: <985946379.2038.30465.l10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010330131205.16057.qmail@web1004.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15585

>>Anyone care to share how You-Know-Who looks and sounds in your
>>own mind?

The first time reading GOF, I had trouble picturing his face. I never had a real
clear picture until I saw "Hannibal" and the character of Mason Verger. I remember
thinking, "Now that's Voldemort." But that's just my opinion. I suppose his voice
sounds like Verger's too, except it's not followed by the hiss of a resperator.

-Erin



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From editor at texas.net  Fri Mar 30 13:20:14 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:20:14 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
References: <99vtcd+471a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC4880E.CFAF805F@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15586

irbohlen at email.unc.edu wrote:

> Secondly, [and this _is_ someone else's idea, but I can't find it or
> any responses] what if Snape's task were to go back to Voldemort as
> Barty Crouch Jr.? Is there any way Lord V could know that Barty has
> been "kissed"? Snape could brew up some Polyjuice Potion, and returnto
> Lord V as his most faithful lieutenant, rather than his own disgraced
> self..

Although this is an excellent idea, I have a problem with it. Nobody
knows that Moody is a polyjuiced Crouch Jr. until that whole confession
scene, right after Dumbledore, Snape, & McGonagall come bustin' in and
rescue Harry. After Crouch Jr. finishes talking, Dumbledore sends Snape
and McGonagall away on errands; Snape goes to get Fudge, while
McGonagall guards Crouch. Dumbledore takes Harry & dog-Sirius away for
discussion in his office, then down to the hospital wing. Then, at the
hospital wing, is when Fudge, McGonagall, and Snape come storming in
after the dementor has kissed Crouch Jr. It is just at the end of this
scene that Dumbledore sends Snape away on his task. And it has clearly
been discussed and/or planned previously, awaiting the need to act on
it.

So the difficulty with Snape being assigned to be a polyjuiced Crouch is
this:

Dumbledore and Snape did not even know that Barty Crouch was still alive
until after he un-juiced, and since then they had no time at all to have
heads together and alter their plan. The concept of using polyjuice as a
long-term disguise, and the knowledge that Barty Crouch was alive and a
devoted servant of Voldemort, both came too late to be part of whatever
Snape's doing. Snape and Dumbledore clearly had prearranged whatever his
task is, but from the time they found out about Crouch and the polyjuice
disguise to when Snape was sent away, they had no time to alter the
arrangements.

That being said, Snape still might have done it, but considering (a) how
easy it would be to detect (Crouch got away with it because it hadn't
occurred to anyone, but now it has), and (b) it was likely Voldemort's
idea, but even if it wasn't, he also is very, very aware of polyjuice
and its spy uses. So I don't think this idea works, from an
outside-the-books-observer timeline point of view, or from an
inside-the-books strategic choice point of view. I think on both levels
polyjuice has been done to death--I think it was introduced in CoS so
that this whole Moody/Crouch substitution ploy could take place in GoF.
I doubt polyjuice will play a similar big huge role again, not least
because everyone's aware of it now, characters and readers alike.

--Amanda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Mar 30 09:24:57 2001
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:24:57 EST5EDT
Subject: Voldemort's voice
Message-ID: <169A373366@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15587

I always "heard" his voice in my head being somewhat like 
Christopher Walken's.  Especially during the end of book four.




Rachel Bray

"Excuse me, I don't like people just because they're 
handsome!" said Hermione indignantly.
Ron gave a loud false cough, which sounded oddly 
like "Lockhart!"




From bafoster at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 30 15:00:36 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:00:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329203051.03075ee0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3AC49F94.58E10B2B@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15588



Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> 
> At 06:02 PM 3/29/01 +0000, irbohlen at email.unc.edu wrote:
> >Secondly, [and this _is_ someone else's idea, but I can't find it or
> >any responses] what if Snape's task were to go back to Voldemort as
> >Barty Crouch Jr.? Is there any way Lord V could know that Barty has
> >been "kissed"? Snape could brew up some Polyjuice Potion, and return
> >to Lord V as his most faithful lieutenant, rather than his own
> >disgraced self..
> 
> I never thought of that!  You may be right.  It would certainly
> save Snape the peril of trying to convince V that he's really on
> his side.
> 
>                                                  -- Dave
> 
Ooh, what an idea!!  I like this one.

Barbara :)



From margdean at erols.com  Fri Mar 30 15:23:36 2001
From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:23:36 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010329203051.03075ee0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3AC4A4F8.CD15763E@erols.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15589

Dave Hardenbrook wrote:
> 
> At 06:02 PM 3/29/01 +0000, irbohlen at email.unc.edu wrote:
> >Secondly, [and this _is_ someone else's idea, but I can't find it or
> >any responses] what if Snape's task were to go back to Voldemort as
> >Barty Crouch Jr.? Is there any way Lord V could know that Barty has
> >been "kissed"? Snape could brew up some Polyjuice Potion, and return
> >to Lord V as his most faithful lieutenant, rather than his own
> >disgraced self..
> 
> I never thought of that!  You may be right.  It would certainly
> save Snape the peril of trying to convince V that he's really on
> his side.

Though (even apart from all the objections that have already been
raised) it would mean that Snape would have to keep the real
Barty Jr. captive or otherwise available, as Barty Jr. himself
did with the real Moody.  Brrrrr.


--Margaret Dean
  <margdean at erols.com>



From suki_willoughby at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 15:22:41 2001
From: suki_willoughby at yahoo.com (suki_willoughby at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:22:41 -0000
Subject: Questions about Dememntors was Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <3AC4880E.CFAF805F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9a28c1+crra@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15590

Just a thought but wouldn't the dementors tell ol' Voldie that they'd 
administered the kiss to Crouch. Dumbledore does say that they (the 
dementors) are/were some of Voldemort's biggest supporters, right? 

Although it does bring up the question of why they did it in the 
first place if they do support V. -- most likely they don't have a 
strong allegiance one way or another they just look for who's going 
to "provide" the most souls. 

Which brings up *another* question, why won't the dementors enter 
Hogwarts while Dumbledore is headmaster??

Any thoughts??

(Aologies if this has been discussed before, I have shamefully not 
consulted the archives._

--back to lurkdom--
Suki




From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 15:33:21 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:33:21 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <3AC4880E.CFAF805F@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9a2901+h4tq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15591

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> Although this is an excellent idea, I have a problem with it. Nobody
> knows that Moody is a polyjuiced Crouch Jr. until that whole 
confession
> scene, right after Dumbledore, Snape, & McGonagall come bustin' in 
and
> rescue Harry. After Crouch Jr. finishes talking, Dumbledore sends 
Snape
> and McGonagall away on errands; Snape goes to get Fudge, while
> McGonagall guards Crouch. Dumbledore takes Harry & dog-Sirius away 
for
> discussion in his office, then down to the hospital wing. Then, at 
the
> hospital wing, is when Fudge, McGonagall, and Snape come storming in
> after the dementor has kissed Crouch Jr. It is just at the end of 
this
> scene that Dumbledore sends Snape away on his task. And it has 
clearly
> been discussed and/or planned previously, awaiting the need to act 
on
> it.



You beat me to it and you said it better than I could have!  The main 
point is that Dumbledore and Snape obviously had a plan in place.  I 
would imagine they had quite a few discussions during the school year 
as they both knew Voldemort was getting stronger.



    
 Snape and Dumbledore clearly had prearranged whatever his
> task is, but from the time they found out about Crouch and the 
polyjuice
> disguise to when Snape was sent away, they had no time to alter the
> arrangements.



This is why I have a hard time believing Snape went back to 
Voldemort.  It appears that Dumbledore never had time to tell Snape 
about the meeting between Harry and the death eaters.  Surely Snape 
would need to know about what had just happened and who was at the 
meeting.  I imagine Voldemort was not a happy man at this time.  It 
would not appear to be a good time for Snape to show up trying to 
convince Voldemort that he is still a loyal follower.


> 
I think on both levels
> polyjuice has been done to death--


So do I.  Whatever Snape went to do I don't believe he had to *cover 
up*.  He went as Severus Snape.  I like the way Dumbledore said, "You 
know what I must ask you to do."  Dumbledore was apprehensive but 
both he and Snape knew it must be done.  Snape didn't think twice.  
Just turned a little pale but went on his way.  He was 'ready' 
and 'prepared'.  

Koinonia







From koinonia02 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 15:47:10 2001
From: koinonia02 at yahoo.com (koinonia02 at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:47:10 -0000
Subject: Quirrell (was: [HPforGrownups] Percy and DADA)
In-Reply-To: <13.137d11f8.27f58cc6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9a29pu+3qjh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15592

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
I forget who, but I think it was Fred or George, 
> but someone explained that he went on a trip during the summer 
(Which was how 
> Voldemort got ahold of him) and came back talking about a werewolf 
that 
> nearly killed him.. everyone assumed that was the reason for his 
strange 
> behavior, and also the reason for him suddenly wearing a turban, 
which was 
> supposedly full of dark-magic repellants because of his newfound 
fearfulness.
> 


Harry first meets Quirrell in The Leaky Cauldron.  He askes Hagrid if 
Quirrell is always that nervous.  'Oh yeah.  Poor bloke.  Brilliant 
mind.  He was fine while he was studyin' outta books but then he took 
a year off ter get some first-hand experience... They say he met 
vampires in the Black Forest and there was a nasty bit o' trouble 
with a hag - never been the same since.  Scared of the students, 
scared of his own subject - now, where's me umbrella?'

Snape seems to have caught onto Quirrell's act quickly.  I imagine 
Dumbledore did also.

Koinonia




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 15:48:27 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:48:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions about Dememntors was Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <9a28c1+crra@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010330154827.42242.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15593

> Which brings up *another* question, why won't the dementors enter 
> Hogwarts while Dumbledore is headmaster??
> 
> Any thoughts??
> 

Because as Headmaster he won't let them.  During the Quidditch game
they do enter the grounds and cause Harry to black out and fall from
his broom.  So it isn't a physical or magical barrier.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 30 16:00:11 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 16:00:11 -0000
Subject: Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <9a2901+h4tq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a2aib+kv3k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15594

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., koinonia02 at y... wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., Amanda Lewanski <editor at t...> wrote:
> > Although this is an excellent idea, I have a problem with it. Nobody
> > knows that Moody is a polyjuiced Crouch Jr. until that whole 
> confession
> > scene, right after Dumbledore, Snape, & McGonagall come bustin' in 
> and
> > rescue Harry. After Crouch Jr. finishes talking, Dumbledore sends 
> Snape
> > and McGonagall away on errands; Snape goes to get Fudge, while
> > McGonagall guards Crouch. 

Not quite: Dumbledore tells Snape to get Madame Pomfrey first. We don't 
know how long that took. It's possible that Dumbledore had a chance to 
talk to Snape again after he left the hospital wing and before Snape 
went to get Fudge. 
	I think that polyjuice will show up again; it's far too useful a 
plot device to be ignored.
Pippin





From joannec at lisp.com.au  Fri Mar 30 13:11:20 2001
From: joannec at lisp.com.au (Joanne Collins)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 23:11:20 +1000
Subject: Here's a very strange thought I had about Dumbledore and Voldemort
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010330231120.007e4c00@mail.lisp.com.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 15595

I was thinking about this, and I hope the possibility hasn't been covered
before, but could it be possible that Dumbledore is Voldemort's father or
perhaps brother? I know they have different names, but there are a million
ways to explain that if they're father and son, and if they're brothers,
maybe they're half-brothers. Not to mention that Dumbledore could have
changed his name after the war. I'm reasonably sure Hitler's family would
have done the same (er...that's not historically accurate), for example.

One of the things that makes me think of this is that Dumbledore seems so
important in the books, and although you'd expect the headmaster to be,
there's just *something* about the way he reacts to Voldemort that seems
like so much more than just being on the other side of the good and evil
dichotomy.

Joanne, 36% obsessed with Harry Potter (must be not writing fanfic yet).



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Mar 30 16:17:48 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 16:17:48 -0000
Subject: Questions about Dememntors was Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
In-Reply-To: <9a28c1+crra@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a2bjc+2puc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15596

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., suki_willoughby at y... wrote:
> Just a thought but wouldn't the dementors tell ol' Voldie that 
they'd 
> administered the kiss to Crouch. Dumbledore does say that they (the 
> dementors) are/were some of Voldemort's biggest supporters, right? 
> 
> Although it does bring up the question of why they did it in the 
> first place if they do support V. -- most likely they don't have a 
> strong allegiance one way or another they just look for who's going 
> to "provide" the most souls. 
> 
> Which brings up *another* question, why won't the dementors enter 
> Hogwarts while Dumbledore is headmaster??
> 
> Any thoughts??
> 
> (Aologies if this has been discussed before, I have shamefully not 
> consulted the archives._
> 
> --back to lurkdom--
> Suki

I think that Dumbledore finds the Dementors totally abhorrent and 
refuses to allow them into Hogwarts.  He made a huge concession in 
allowing them to guard Hogwarts during PoA, and is furious with Fudge 
for bringing one in to administer to Barty Crouch.

I think you're right that the Dementors don't have a strong 
allegiance either side.  Dumbledore says that they are more likely to 
join Voldemort because he will give them more scope.  At the moment, 
they are very rigorously monitored.  I don't think they care, as long 
as they can continue to feed on happiness and administer the odd kiss.
Catherine




From bafoster at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 30 16:19:17 2001
From: bafoster at mindspring.com (Barbara Foster Williams)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:19:17 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Here's a very strange thought I had about Dumbledore  and Voldemort
References: <3.0.6.32.20010330231120.007e4c00@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <3AC4B204.7A3F1063@mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15597



Joanne Collins wrote:
> 
> I was thinking about this, and I hope the possibility hasn't been
> covered
> before, but could it be possible that Dumbledore is Voldemort's father
> or
> perhaps brother? I know they have different names, but there are a
> million
> ways to explain that if they're father and son, and if they're
> brothers,
> maybe they're half-brothers. Not to mention that Dumbledore could have
> changed his name after the war. I'm reasonably sure Hitler's family
> would
> have done the same (er...that's not historically accurate), for
> example.
> 

Well, it's a nice theory, but while they might be related in another
way, he's definitely not V's father.  In GoF they have to use "bone of
the father" for the flesh, blood, and bone spell and they definitely
take it from Tom Riddle's grave, so he is V's father.

Barbara :)



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Mar 30 16:26:05 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 16:26:05 -0000
Subject: Here's a very strange thought I had about Dumbledore and Voldemort
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010330231120.007e4c00@mail.lisp.com.au>
Message-ID: <9a2c2t+7odb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15598

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Joanne Collins <joannec at l...> wrote:
> I was thinking about this, and I hope the possibility hasn't been 
covered
> before, but could it be possible that Dumbledore is Voldemort's 
father or
> perhaps brother? I know they have different names, but there are a 
million
> ways to explain that if they're father and son, and if they're 
brothers,
> maybe they're half-brothers. Not to mention that Dumbledore could 
have
> changed his name after the war. I'm reasonably sure Hitler's family 
would
> have done the same (er...that's not historically accurate), for 
example.
> 
> One of the things that makes me think of this is that Dumbledore 
seems so
> important in the books, and although you'd expect the headmaster to 
be,
> there's just *something* about the way he reacts to Voldemort that 
seems
> like so much more than just being on the other side of the good and 
evil
> dichotomy.
> 
> Joanne, 36% obsessed with Harry Potter (must be not writing fanfic 
yet).

I don't think the father/son thing is possible.  Voldemort needed the 
bones of a member of his family in the resurrection spell, and used 
those of his father, Tom Riddle.   If he hadn't been his father, 
wouldn't the spell have failed?

The brother thing I think is also unlikely.  Dumbledore is 150, 
acccording to JKR recently, and if Voldemort was 15/16 50 years ago, 
that would make him in his 60s.  As Voldemort's parents were 
obviously quite young when they got together, (gleaned from 
descriptions of the dead bodies etc, and that she was young enough to 
have children) I don't think that this is physically possible.

(I did consider whether Dumbledore could be related to Voldemort's 
mother, but she is descended from Slytherin and Dumbledore is a 
Gryffindor, so this again seems very unlikely.)

Catherine




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Mar 30 16:31:58 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 16:31:58 -0000
Subject: Quirrell
In-Reply-To: <9a0nvl+nsnk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a2cdu+sor8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15599

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., aprilgc at i... wrote:
> We've been discussing a lot lately the possibility that Percy may 
> become a pawn of the dark side <g>.  It made me wonder how prepared 
he 
> is for that possibility.
> My train:
> Gred and Forge are getting the same lessons from "Moody" as the 
Trio 
> are - even though they're not in the same year - but Percy's not 
there 
> for Moody's practical lessons.
> Lupin -the year before (Percy's last year) - probably gave the 7th 
> years whatever they needed, but would not have been able to make up 
for 
> ...
> Lockhart - who probably taught all his classes the same way as he 
had 
> no knowledge to give them and
> Quirrell - who knew things about the DA, but only had the students 
> doing book learning and was "afraid" of his own subject.
> 
> I don't think we know how long Quirrell was there, or the skill of 
his 
> predecessor.  I guess I'm wondering if Percy would recognize the 
> Imperio if someone tried to use it on him - and if he would know 
how to 
> fight it if he did recognize it.
> 

With the messages about Percy, I've been re-reading the books 
focusing on the Percy bits.

I think in SS/PS, Hagrid tells Harry that Quirrell took a leave of 
absence int he Black Forest and had some traumatic encounter with a 
hag and has been afraid of nearly everything since that time. It sort 
of implies that Quirrell has been teaching for more than one year.

:-)Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Mar 30 16:50:06 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 16:50:06 -0000
Subject: Feeling his pain
Message-ID: <9a2dfu+beco@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15600

With the posts about Percy, Ron, Hermione and the Dark Side, I've re-
read the books with those things in mind. The other night I came 
across a section in PoA, where they are in the Shrieking Shack with 
Sirius and Harry is feeling great hatred toward Sirius. He hears a 
voice that says to go ahead and kill him. Was that message from 
Voldemort? 

Dumbledore said that his theory about Harry's scar pain was that 
whenever Voldy was nearby or was feeling particularly murderous the 
scar hurts. Would the same be true for Voldemort? If Harry were to 
feel particularly "murderous" or any other intense emotion did 
Voldemort feel that too? If so, was Voldemort using the scar as a 
means of monitoring Harry? Also, if Harry feels pain when Voldy is 
violent, could Voldy feel pain when Harry is even minimally 
satisfied? Could this partially explain why Voldy remained weak for 
all those years?.

:-)Milz




From gaynor at cheerful.com  Fri Mar 30 17:26:53 2001
From: gaynor at cheerful.com (Gaynor Thomas)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:26:53 -0000
Subject: Another Ginny moment.
In-Reply-To: <9a1ip1+f116@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a2fkt+i23t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15601

Catherine wrote:

<snip>

> Ginny is much maligned!
>
> Catherine, who hasn't given up hope of converting a few people out 
> there...

Just wanted to make known the presence of two stowaways on the H/G 
ship...we've been lurking in the hold, but we thought we'd briefly 
come up to the deck to voice our support! ;-)

> In the words of JKR: "Poor Ginny, eh?"

After the scene when Ginny tells Harry she can't go with him to the 
ball because she's going with Neville, she gets up and leaves the 
Gryffindor common room through the portrait hole. We can clearly see 
in our heads the missing scene where Ginny closes the portrait hole 
behind her, stops in the corridor and says, "DAMN!!!!" (and possibly 
bangs her head on the wall a few times!)

Poor Ginny!

Gaynor and Cath (scuttling back below decks!)




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 18:25:29 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:25:29 -0000
Subject: Another Ginny moment.
In-Reply-To: <9a2fkt+i23t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a2j2p+lutn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15602

Poking my head up from the hold where I have been hiding on the 
Ginny/Harry Ship.

Count me in! I really like Ginny and I think we will be seeing quite a 
bit more of her soon. I kind of hope that Harry will notice her....

--Suzanne


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Gaynor Thomas" <gaynor at c...> wrote:
> Catherine wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > Ginny is much maligned!
> >
> > Catherine, who hasn't given up hope of converting a few people out 
> > there...
> 
> Just wanted to make known the presence of two stowaways on the H/G 
> ship...we've been lurking in the hold, but we thought we'd briefly 
> come up to the deck to voice our support! ;-)
> 
> > In the words of JKR: "Poor Ginny, eh?"
> 
> After the scene when Ginny tells Harry she can't go with him to the 
> ball because she's going with Neville, she gets up and leaves the 
> Gryffindor common room through the portrait hole. We can clearly see 
> in our heads the missing scene where Ginny closes the portrait hole 
> behind her, stops in the corridor and says, "DAMN!!!!" (and possibly 
> bangs her head on the wall a few times!)
> 
> Poor Ginny!
> 
> Gaynor and Cath (scuttling back below decks!)




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar 30 18:59:50 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:59:50 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Books Burned
References: <104.f919a2.27f43d07@aol.com>
Message-ID: <012701c0b94b$9bd83ee0$7714a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15603

Wasn't that quote in one of the bookstores online... like right next to the
JKR books ... other books you want to read ... and then that letter was in a
review?
Doreen

----- Original Message -----
From: <tobeybickle at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter Books Burned


Oh, I need to find this website I had from some southern preacher.. He was
talking about how Snape advocates drugs and when Dumbledore says "To the
well-ordered mind, death is nothing but the next great adventure" he's
supposedly talking about Asian concepts of reincarnation. Then he takes
Quirrel's quote about there not being right and wrong, but rather just
power,
and explains that the quote is from Rowling herself.

The whole time, I'm thinking the there are going to be hundreds of parents
stupid enough to believe this guy. They really should sue people like that
for slander. I'll post the link if I can find it again.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Mar 30 19:20:29 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:20:29 -0000
Subject: Books burnt in Germany too!!
In-Reply-To: <023901c0b88b$ccac9040$5911eda9@kwan>
Message-ID: <9a2m9t+39r1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15604

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Alexandra Y. Kwan" <litalex at y...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > Burning books seems like an enormous waste of money and I hope 
this
> > was not done or condoned by any churches or there will be 
accusations
> > of hypocrisy again.
> 
> It's not the money aspect I'm worried about.  I forgot who said it, 
but
> someone said something very similar to "the next step to burning 
books is
> burning people."  *That*'s the part I'm worried about.
> 
> little Alex

What I meant (though forgot to mention, sorry) about the money aspect 
was that for Churches to go around burning books was a waste of money 
that could have been better used to help people in need. Just thought 
I'd clarify that :).




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 19:39:17 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:39:17 -0000
Subject: Stouffer article in the Washington Post
Message-ID: <9a2nd6+ib1o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15605

The Washington Post had an article the other day on Nancy Stouffer, 
the woman we love to hate   It was not very favorable to her; in 
fact, it made it sound like the opportunistic idiot she is.  The 
article is at:

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62378-2001Mar26.html>

Here are some of the more interesting parts of the article, along 
with my invaluable commentary (prefaced by my initials, JMC, so that 
you don't mix up my comments with the Post's, just in case Stouffer 
is watching, we don't want to give her any more ammunition):

<To shut Stouffer up, Rowling and her corporate protectors -- 
Scholastic Books and Time Warner -- have filed suit against her in 
New York...It's a preemptive strike: The corporations don't want 
Stouffer bad-mouthing the beloved wizard of Hogwarts ... And they 
don't want to be sued by Stouffer for trademark infringement 
somewhere down the line.

<But Stouffer, 50, is not the type to go quietly. She is staging a 
media McFlurry on TV talk shows, stating her case and publicizing the 
reissue of some of her books.

<There are vast differences between the two sets of 
books.....Stouffer's are 24-page activity books -- homespun amalgams 
of stories, pencil games and pictures to color.

JMC: CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS IDIOT!  She is claiming JKR based Harry 
Potter on some stupid COLORING BOOKS!

<There are parallels. In Stouffer's stories, for example, Muggles are 
mutated humanlike creatures left behind on Earth after a nuclear 
holocaust. In Rowling's books, Muggles are ordinary humans. 
Stouffer's books are set in a mythical place; so are Rowling's. 
Rowling writes of a sorcerer's stone; Stouffer of worry stones. The 
jacket illustration of "Legend of Rah" resembles Mary Grandpre's 
familiar renderings of Harry Potter.

JMC: Sounds pretty thin to me.  And to say those ugly wee-wee head 
drawings look like Mary Grandpre's artwork is really pushing it.

<Some of the similarities are remarkable; many are inconsequential. 
In Stouffer's stories, for example, a character knocks three times on 
a wooden door; in Rowling's, a character knocks three times on an oak 
door. Both authors write of a castle on a mirrored lake.

JMC: Next thing you know she'll be trying to trademark the number 
three.

<The whole mess "is hard for me to believe," says Stouffer at her 
home in Camp Hill, Pa.

JMC: It's hard for us to believe, too, Nancy.

<The folks at Scholastic can't believe the whole mess either. They 
are amazed that anyone is taking Stouffer seriously. To imply that 
Rowling "may have stolen some things from Stouffer is offensive," 
sighs Scholastic's exasperated-sounding general counsel, Charles 
Deull.  Such accusations by Stouffer, Deull says, "are based on a 
series of statements that are just not true."

<During the mid-1980s, Stouffer created several series of activity 
books, to be sold monthly to teachers and to the rest of the reading 
public in drugstores and grocery stores. All in all, some 130 books 
were planned, Stouffer says. Some were printed, some weren't. The 
price was around $4. Scholastic executives have doubts about the 
extent to which "Legend of Rah" was ever available. "Check Books in 
Print," Deull says. "We've tried every rare-book store and Web site." 
They couldn't find a used copy for sale. Deull has seen a photocopy 
of the book.

JMC: Notice that Stouffer claims only that "Legend of Rah" was 
printed.  She never actually says that her "Larry Potter" books were 
ever made available, leading me to believe that she invented them 
sometime in the last few years.

JMC: This is the best part:

<In the late 1980s, Stouffer says the books were selling so well and 
licensing agreements were flooding in at such a rate that she 
projected annual earnings of an astonishing $1 billion. She says that 
during one 2 1/2-week period her company received orders for $6.5 
million, which could have made publishing history. However, even with 
these orders in hand her company fell apart, she says. She has no 
records of these gigantic sales because the studio at her home 
collapsed during a snowstorm in 1996, explains Kevin Casey, a 
Philadelphia lawyer who is representing her.

JMC: Convenient, that snowstorm!!!!  Who does she think will believe 
that? Is there no limit to her arrogance?

<In the 1980s, Stouffer says, she attended book and trade shows 
throughout the country, sometimes setting up shop right next to 
Scholastic "with my six-foot-tall cutouts of Muggles."

<"That wouldn't make a bit of difference," (Scholastic's lawyer) 
Deull says of the trade shows, "because Jo Rowling had no contact 
with us. Scholastic and Time Warner did not create Harry Potter."

JMC: This is another interesting claim by Stouffer:

<Scholastic editor Arthur A. Levine brought Rowling's books to 
America. Stouffer maintains that at one point she met Levine and 
Levine's wife, who expressed interest in Stouffer's Muggles...as it 
turns out, Levine does not have a wife and has never been married, 
Deull says.

JMC: I bet the folks at Scholastic were pretty amused by her claim 
about Arthur's wife.

<Stouffer says Rowling's fame is creating the chaos. ... The word 
"muggles," she says, comes from her son's baby-talk word for cheeks 
-- muggles. Rowling says her Muggles came from a British word for 
fool....Actually, the word is older than both writers. The Oxford 
English Dictionary traces muggles back to the 13th century.....

JMC: And, the truest remark:
<Many J.K. Rowling admirers think Nancy Stouffer is capitalizing on 
confusion. 

<She has begun signing her books N.K. Stouffer -- her middle name, 
like Rowling's, is Kathleen. Some Potterheads, Stouffer says, have 
even threatened her life.

JMC: Oh, please, like we would bother.  And don't call us Potterheads.


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*





From s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Mar 30 20:10:58 2001
From: s_waggott at yahoo.co.uk (Sarah Waggott)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:10:58 -0000
Subject: Feeling his pain
In-Reply-To: <9a2dfu+beco@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a2p8i+q992@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15606

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Milz" <absinthe at m...> wrote:
> With the posts about Percy, Ron, Hermione and the Dark Side, I've 
re-
> read the books with those things in mind. The other night I came 
> across a section in PoA, where they are in the Shrieking Shack with 
> Sirius and Harry is feeling great hatred toward Sirius. He hears a 
> voice that says to go ahead and kill him. Was that message from 
> Voldemort? 
> 
> Dumbledore said that his theory about Harry's scar pain was that 
> whenever Voldy was nearby or was feeling particularly murderous the 
> scar hurts. Would the same be true for Voldemort? If Harry were to 
> feel particularly "murderous" or any other intense emotion did 
> Voldemort feel that too? If so, was Voldemort using the scar as a 
> means of monitoring Harry? Also, if Harry feels pain when Voldy is 
> violent, could Voldy feel pain when Harry is even minimally 
> satisfied? Could this partially explain why Voldy remained weak for 
> all those years?.
> 
> :-)Milz

I think it is possible that there is a link between what Harry and V 
feel, I'm not sure whether it was in a film or in a book that I heard 
about something similar. Sorry, my memory really is like a 
sieve ::grins sheepishly::
However, in this particular instance, Harry believed that Sirius had 
killed or helped kill his parents. This would be enough to make 
anyone feel murderous IMO, helped by V or not.

Sarah 




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar 30 20:18:34 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:18:34 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: was Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, now snakes
References: <50.137f3092.27f51675@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c0b956$9b5c0900$5114a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15607

In a message dated 3/29/01 2:30:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com writes:


> > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> > > Part Kneazle.. I think that's brilliant. The other thing I
> noticed in the book was that there were a half dozen types of snakes,
> and they all have interesting abilities.. I don't know why, but I
> think we're going to see an Ashwinder in the next book. It just
> seemes like JKR had it's story planned out in a bit too much detail,
> and it's power for making love potions is just too interesting.
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Ashwinders:  Argh!  Don't have my FB with me to refer to the
> description.  The 'love potion' bit ~is~ a terrific detail; I'd love
> to see this brought into the story.  Your comment about the many
> varieties of snakes is interesting, and has got me thinking.  I know
> we've discussed various thoughts on snakes within the storyline; can
> anyone give me a quick answer:  is the Slytherin mascot specifically
> a basilisk, or just a snake in general?  What I'm remembering is that
> the when snakes are mentioned in the books, they're referred to as a
> snake in the general sense, and the only times specific types are
> mentioned are the boa constrictor at the zoo, and the basilisk in the
> Chamber.  Thinking ahead to the coming VWII, we'll probably see Vold
> using snakes against good guys, and I believe someone proposed that
> maybe the boa constrictor will resurface.  This will seem to be
> revisited as Vold will try to set that particular snake on Harry, but
> the snake will remember Harry gave him his freedom (or something like
> that)....  Hmm.
>

I'm 90% sure it's just a snake.. In FB it says that Basilisks must be
specifically breed, are very uncommon, and are associated with dark
wizards..
I don't think it would make sense for one to be their mascot.
************************
What kind of snake is Nagini?

Doreen
************************







From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar 30 20:53:28 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:53:28 -0600
Subject: Hermione & Fleur
References: <99t12e+n5vb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC4F248.62133A@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15608

Hi --

Cleaning out this weeks' emails that I wanted to reply to and hadn't
....

Kimberly wrote:

> Why *does* Hermione hate Fleur so much?  She generally gives people
> the benefit of the doubt.  Even Snape, before there was any indication
>
> that he was anything but horrible.  But with Fleur she just seems to
> detest her from the very beginning.  I don't think she's ever done
> that with anyone else.  So is it only jealousy, or is there something
> else?

I don't think it's jealousy.  I also don't think it's completely
explained as a backlash reaction by brainy plain-Jane Hermione against
beautiful worldly Fleur with all her charms.  I think she doesn't
respect Fleur from the very beginning.  Gwen pointed out that Fleur was
haughty from the very first, and this is true.  Hermione was disdainful
of Fleur before she ever saw the reaction of Ron or any of the other
boys to her.  Seeing how the boys all drooled over Fleur was just icing
on the cake I think.  I think she pegged Fleur as vapid/shallow from the
very beginning -- Fleur's effect on most males just intensified
Hermione's dislike of her.

Gwen said:

> Whether or not there is something going on between Hermione and Ron at this point in time,
> Hermione finds Ron's drooling embarrassing.  She associates this with
> Fleur.
>
> To be fair, she has a similar reaction when Ron goes all silly over
> Krum.  She prefers Ron to be his usual self, and behave in a manner
> she can respect.
>
She would also find it embarassing if Harry were behaving in this
manner, which is why I reject the notion that her reactions to Fleur are
inextricably tied to feelings of jealousy over Ron.  She pulled Harry
back into his seat the World Cup when he was reacting to the veela.
Hermione is disdainful of hero-worship in any form -- as Gwen noted, she
also dislikes Ron's reactions to Krum for the same reason (well, *I*
think it's the same reason anyway!).  She also dislikes Krum at the
beginning for this reason; she apparently had the impression that he
enjoyed the attentions of all the female admirers.  So ... I think it
boils down to her having little patience for hero-worship.  She was
already predisposed to dislike Fleur since Fleur took such a haughty
attitude when she came out of the BeauxBatons carriage.  Her effect on
people around her just seals Hermione's feelings.

Gwen again:

> I also think her attitude could be attributed to a degree of
> contempt for the steroetype Fleur represented.  Fleur is an
> affirmation of what Hermione must have already started to notice.
> Smart, practical people can be daughters, students, peers and
> friends, and can be appreciated accordingly.  It's not as easy to
> find appreciation as a girl.  Your average teenager will look at the
> veela first.
>
I think this is very valid, and it does probably play into the mix of
emotions that Hermione is likely experiencing.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Mar 30 21:00:56 2001
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:00:56 -0600
Subject: Books as "Childrens' Books"
References: <99vkha+iv54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3AC4F408.42CF5490@swbell.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15609

Hi --

inyron at yahoo.com wrote:

> I agree that the books are not children's books, and JKR said she
> wrote them for herself- BUT.
>
> >From a Barnes&Noble.com chat, OCTOBER 20, 2000
>
>
> Question: Are you going to get more mature themes as your books age,
> or are you going to keep it geared toward younger kids?
>
> JKR: I think an eight- or nine-year-old will be able to read all
> seven books. That's my intention. However, Harry is growing up, so
> obviously he will face certain issues an eight-year-old won't. I
> don't think, however, that that will be uninteresting for an eight-
> year-old.

Yes, but here's what she said in an August Entertainment Weekly
interview:

> Rowling has said that Goblet of Fire is the turning point in the
> series, the critical book.  "Book Four is the end of an era for
> Harry.  He's been very protected until now."   "Harry's horizons are
> literally and metaphorically widening as he grows older."   She has
> also said that Goblet of Fire represents "the end of an era in the
> context of the whole series of books. For Harry, his innocence is
> gone."

> She says she has no intention of "toning down" the coming books in
> response to criticism of the darkening tone for younger readers.  "I
> have to write the story I want to write.  I never wrote them with a
> focus group of 8-year-olds in mind.  I have to continue telling the
> story the way I want to tell it."  Later in this interview, she
> emphasizes again that she "cannot write to please other people.  I
> can't.  When I finish Book 7, I want to be able to look in the mirror
> and think, I did it the way I meant to do it."  She seems to believe
> that the later books in the series will not necessarily be appropriate
> for all young children.

Footnotes omitted -- the above extracts are from the JKR FAQ draft.

My main point is just that the books are not being written with a target
audience; therefore, I don't think it makes much sense to say that JKR
will keep things light enough for young children to understand &
accept.  She's said pretty clearly that isn't what she intends to do.
If you consider how much older the protagonist will be at the end of the
series, this becomes even more clear to me.  I don't think you can say,
"She won't kill so&so because that would just be too hard for the kids
to deal with."  Just my two galleons.

Penny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From DaveH47 at mindspring.com  Fri Mar 30 21:12:33 2001
From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:12:33 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stouffer article in the Washington Post
In-Reply-To: <9a2nd6+ib1o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010330130211.030f0530@pop.mindspring.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15610

At 07:39 PM 3/30/01 +0000, joym999 at aol.com wrote:
>JMC: Convenient, that snowstorm!!!!  Who does she think will believe
>that? Is there no limit to her arrogance?

Beside which, as has been pointed out on the HP Newsgroup,
while a snowstorm could bury records, how could it destroy
them entirely??

><Stouffer says Rowling's fame is creating the chaos. ... The word
>"muggles," she says, comes from her son's baby-talk word for cheeks
>-- muggles.

When I was a tot I used the phrase "Bach" to describe a book.
Does that give me the right to sue the estate of Johann Sebastian?

><She has begun signing her books N.K. Stouffer -- her middle name,
>like Rowling's, is Kathleen.

She's claiming Jo stole that too, is she?

><Some Potterheads, Stouffer says, have even threatened her life.>
>Oh, please, like we would bother. And don't call us Potterheads.

I think she's preparing to ally herself with the book-burners.  Her page
insinuates that the death threats she's received suggests that Harry Potter
turns sweet little kids into homicidal psychopaths.

"Potterhead" -- The opposite of a "Mudblood"?  Obviously Salazaar Slytherin
isn't only one who thinks up cute derogatory terms.



                                                 -- Dave




From nera at rconnect.com  Fri Mar 30 21:10:26 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:10:26 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Issues About Memory
References: <9a11ov+klmb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007e01c0b95d$d8c414c0$5114a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15611

MY IDEA >>>>> The Dursleys have been/and are involved with protecting Harry
from the beginning, working, although reluctantly, with Dumbledore. <<<<<MY
IDEA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 10:23 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Issues About Memory


Some memory-related inquiries:

We know that the MOM devotes a serious amount of time and effort to
erasing the memory of Muggles (Yikes! Talk about thought-control!)
who chance to witness magical creatures or events. Yet there are some
Muggles whose memories remain uncontaminated.  Primarily, of course,
the Dursleys - the MOM seems confident enough that these
quintessential Muggles are so resolute in their refusal to
acknowledge the alternate Wizardly society, that to erase their
memories would be carrying coals to Newcastle. In Chapter 3 of PoA,
Fudge tells Harry "You will be pleased to hear that we have dealt
with the unfortunate blowing-up of Miss Marjorie Dursley. Two members
of the Accidental Magic Reversal Department were dispatched to Privet
Drive a few hours ago. Miss Dursley has been punctured and her memory
has been modified. She has no recollection of the incident at all. So
that's that, and no harm done."

But though Aunt Marge was purged of her memories, there is no mention
that Vernon, Petunia or even Dudley had their memories similarly
treated. Fudge says just a bit later in Ch. 3 "Ah, you're worrying
about the reaction of your aunt and uncle?...Well, I won't deny that
they are extremely angry, Harry, but they are prepared to take you
back next summer as long as you stay at Hogwarts for the Christmas
and Easter holidays."  This certainly implies that they remember the
full circumstances of Aunt Marge's mishap.  Similarly in Ch. 5 of
CoS, in the aftermath of the Flying Ford episode, Dumbledore tells
Harry and Ron that he will be writing to both their families about
that misadventure: though of course the difference is that Ron's
parents will be seriously and appropriately concerned, while with the
Dursleys, "Harry knew perfectly well they'd just be disappointed that
the Whomping Willow hadn't squashed him flat."

A clue may be in Ch. 4 of CoS, when Hermione's parents are visiting
Diagon Alley. They seem to be given full access to it. Perhaps
parental rights in the Wizarding world trumps even the MOM's desire
to preserve its secrecy.

Second memory point: During BC Jr.'s de-briefing in GoF Ch. 35,
Crouch tells how his father's Memory Charm which he cast on Bertha
Jorkins, "damaged her memory permanently."  It is somehow implied
that this left her especially vulnerable - to the point that she had
to be killed - when she was later interrogated by Voldemort.  JKR
does not clarify the specifics about the damage that Bertha
suffered.  It does not seem to be the same sort of injury that
Lockhart sustained in CoS, when his spell boomeranged on him: this
resulted in Lockhart losing all memory of his own identity.  There is
no suggestion that Bertha's identity was erased.  Just how was her
memory damaged? (Did she lose things more often or what?)

   - CMC








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>From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
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From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 21:36:49 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:36:49 -0000
Subject: Stouffer article in the Washington Post
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010330130211.030f0530@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <9a2u9h+mapv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15612

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Dave Hardenbrook <DaveH47 at m...> wrote:
> At 07:39 PM 3/30/01 +0000, joym999 at a... wrote:
> >JMC: Convenient, that snowstorm!!!!  Who does she think will 
believe
> >that? Is there no limit to her arrogance?
> 
> Beside which, as has been pointed out on the HP Newsgroup,
> while a snowstorm could bury records, how could it destroy
> them entirely??
 
Even if a storm destroyed everything in her house utterly, I have a 
very hard time believing that all evidence of her alleged 
record-breaking success would also suddenly vanish without a trace. 
Presumably if so many people were interested and making offers, they 
too would have the correspondence and records, right? Oh gee, but I 
guess they have joined the conspiracy.

This sounds like one of her delusions. Like meeting Mr. Levine and his 
"wife".

Throwing in my two bits yet again,

Suzanne
Gryffindor




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 22:06:59 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:06:59 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Issues About Memory
Message-ID: <82.8f3779c.27f65d83@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15613

In a message dated 3/30/01 1:12:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
nera at rconnect.com writes:


> Some memory-related inquiries:
> 
> We know that the MOM devotes a serious amount of time and effort to
> erasing the memory of Muggles (Yikes! Talk about thought-control!)
> who chance to witness magical creatures or events. Yet there are some
> Muggles whose memories remain uncontaminated.  Primarily, of course,
> the Dursleys - the MOM seems confident enough that these
> quintessential Muggles are so resolute in their refusal to
> acknowledge the alternate Wizardly society, that to erase their
> memories would be carrying coals to Newcastle. In Chapter 3 of PoA,
> Fudge tells Harry "You will be pleased to hear that we have dealt
> with the unfortunate blowing-up of Miss Marjorie Dursley. Two members
> of the Accidental Magic Reversal Department were dispatched to Privet
> Drive a few hours ago. Miss Dursley has been punctured and her memory
> has been modified. She has no recollection of the incident at all. So
> that's that, and no harm done."
> 
> But though Aunt Marge was purged of her memories, there is no mention
> that Vernon, Petunia or even Dudley had their memories similarly
> treated. Fudge says just a bit later in Ch. 3 "Ah, you're worrying
> about the reaction of your aunt and uncle?...Well, I won't deny that
> they are extremely angry, Harry, but they are prepared to take you
> back next summer as long as you stay at Hogwarts for the Christmas
> and Easter holidays."  This certainly implies that they remember the
> full circumstances of Aunt Marge's mishap.  Similarly in Ch. 5 of
> CoS, in the aftermath of the Flying Ford episode, Dumbledore tells
> Harry and Ron that he will be writing to both their families about
> that misadventure: though of course the difference is that Ron's
> parents will be seriously and appropriately concerned, while with the
> Dursleys, "Harry knew perfectly well they'd just be disappointed that
> the Whomping Willow hadn't squashed him flat."
> 
> A clue may be in Ch. 4 of CoS, when Hermione's parents are visiting
> Diagon Alley. They seem to be given full access to it. Perhaps
> parental rights in the Wizarding world trumps even the MOM's desire
> to preserve its secrecy.
> 
> Second memory point: During BC Jr.'s de-briefing in GoF Ch. 35,
> Crouch tells how his father's Memory Charm which he cast on Bertha
> Jorkins, "damaged her memory permanently."  It is somehow implied
> that this left her especially vulnerable - to the point that she had
> to be killed - when she was later interrogated by Voldemort.  JKR
> does not clarify the specifics about the damage that Bertha
> suffered.  It does not seem to be the same sort of injury that
> Lockhart sustained in CoS, when his spell boomeranged on him: this
> resulted in Lockhart losing all memory of his own identity.  There is
> no suggestion that Bertha's identity was erased.  Just how was her
> memory damaged? (Did she lose things more often or what?)
> 
>    - CMC
> 

I think when you become part of a Wizard or Witches immediate family through 
marriage or through a sudden display of magical powers on the part of your 
child (Like Hermione) they sort of let you in on the secret. You're allowed 
to know everything. There has to be some trust or else muggles and wizards 
couldn't intermarry, and if they couldn't intermarry wizards would have died 
out a long time ago, as Ron said. Of course, they judge you worthy or 
unworthy first, and like in the case of Aunt Marge, where she very obviously 
would have A) been traumatized by her encounter and B) run to the Muggle 
police with her information, they'll alter your memory even if you are 
related.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 22:12:48 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:12:48 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: was Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, now snakes
Message-ID: <fd.4134a0b.27f65ee0@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15614

In a message dated 3/30/01 12:19:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
nera at rconnect.com writes:


> > > --- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> > > > Part Kneazle.. I think that's brilliant. The other thing I
> > noticed in the book was that there were a half dozen types of snakes,
> > and they all have interesting abilities.. I don't know why, but I
> > think we're going to see an Ashwinder in the next book. It just
> > seemes like JKR had it's story planned out in a bit too much detail,
> > and it's power for making love potions is just too interesting.
> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> >
> > Ashwinders:  Argh!  Don't have my FB with me to refer to the
> > description.  The 'love potion' bit ~is~ a terrific detail; I'd love
> > to see this brought into the story.  Your comment about the many
> > varieties of snakes is interesting, and has got me thinking.  I know
> > we've discussed various thoughts on snakes within the storyline; can
> > anyone give me a quick answer:  is the Slytherin mascot specifically
> > a basilisk, or just a snake in general?  What I'm remembering is that
> > the when snakes are mentioned in the books, they're referred to as a
> > snake in the general sense, and the only times specific types are
> > mentioned are the boa constrictor at the zoo, and the basilisk in the
> > Chamber.  Thinking ahead to the coming VWII, we'll probably see Vold
> > using snakes against good guys, and I believe someone proposed that
> > maybe the boa constrictor will resurface.  This will seem to be
> > revisited as Vold will try to set that particular snake on Harry, but
> > the snake will remember Harry gave him his freedom (or something like
> > that)....  Hmm.
> >
> 
> I'm 90% sure it's just a snake.. In FB it says that Basilisks must be
> specifically breed, are very uncommon, and are associated with dark
> wizards..
> I don't think it would make sense for one to be their mascot.
> ************************
> What kind of snake is Nagini?
> 
> Doreen
> 

Nagini couldn't be a Basilisk, because I'm pretty sure she's made eye contact 
with Wormtail or Voldemort at some point, and as it says in FB, the stare of 
the Basilisk is as dangerous to a dark wizard as anyone else (Unless they are 
a parselmouth and contriol it, but I still think it would have been to 
dangerous.) Also, didn't she make eye contact with Frank? Plus, she's about 
20 feet long or so, if I remember, and Basilisks are much larger than that. 
I'd assume she's some type of creature Voldemort picked up in one of the 
Jungles he was lurking in, or maybe from one of the dark wizards he studied 
under when becoming Voldemort. I don't think she's a normal snake, because 
the type of snakes that get to be 20 feet long are constricters, and no 
venemous. She's definitely a magical creature, but probably one either 
charmed or specially breed against the law.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 22:26:06 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:26:06 -0000
Subject: was Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, now snakes
In-Reply-To: <fd.4134a0b.27f65ee0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9a315u+109t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15615

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:


> > What kind of snake is Nagini?
> > 
> > Doreen
> > 
> 
> Nagini couldn't be a Basilisk, because I'm pretty sure she's made 
eye contact 
> with Wormtail or Voldemort at some point...



A Naga is a kind of mythical serpent. Nagini sounds like a variation 
on the name-- I think it would be translated as "little serpent"! 
(Considering that she is 20 feet long, we can see JKR's sense of 
humor at work here...) 

I found the following description on the web:

The word Naga is rooted in Sanskrit and means "Serpent". In the East 
Indian pantheon it is connected with the Serpent Spirit and the
Dragon Spirit. It has an quivalency to the Burmese Nats, or 
god-serpents. In the Esoteric Tradition it is synonymous for Adepts, 
or
Initiates. In India and Egypt, and even in Central and South America, 
the Naga stands for one who is wise. 

     Nagarjuna of India, for example, is shown with an aura, or halo, 
of seven serpents which is an indication of a very high degree of
Initiation. The symbolism of the seven serpents, usually cobras, are 
also on Masonic aprons of certain systems in the Buddhistic ruins of
Cambodia (Ankhor) and Ceylon. The great temple-builders of the famous 
Ankhor Wat were considered to be the semi-divine Khmers.
The avenue leading to the Temple is lined with the seven-headed Naga. 
And even in Mexico, we find the "Naga" which becomes
"Nagal." In China, the Naga is given the form of the Dragon and has a 
direct association with the Emperor and is known as the "Son of
Heaven"...while in Egypt the same association is termed 
"King-Initiate". The Chinese are even said to have originated with the 
Serpent
demi-gods and even to speak their language, Naga-Krita. For a place 
that has no serpents, Tibet, they are still known in a symbolic sense
and are called "Lu!" (Naga). Nagarjuna called in Tibetan, Lu-trub. 

     In the Western traditions we find the sae ubiquity for the Naga, 
or Serpent. One simple example is the Ancient Greek Goddess,
Athena. She is known as a warrior Goddess as well as the Goddess of 
Wisdom; her symbol being the Serpent as displayed on her
personal shield. Of course, in Genesis the Serpent is a Naga who 
instructs the new infant (humanity) in what is called the Knowledge of
Good and Evil. The Christian church has, unfortunately transformed the 
Initiate-Teacher into a tempting and negative demon-character.
An apocryphal tradition says that Apollonius of Tyana, while on a 
visit to India, was taught by the "Nagas" of Kashmir. (See The Life of
Apollonius, by Philostratos.)  It is felt by many scholars of the 
Western Tradition that the life of Apollonius was taken from the New
Testament, or that the narratives of the New Testament have been taken 
from the life of Apollonius. This is felt because of ! the
undisputed and clear similarities of construction fo that particular 
narrative. 

     Naga is one of a handful of rare words surviving the loss of the 
first universal language. In Buddhism, Wisdom has always been ties,
symbollically, to the figure of the Serpent. In the Western Tradition 
it can be found as used by the Christ in the Gospel of Saint Matthew
(x.16), "Be ye therefore as serpents, and harmless as doves." 

     In all mythological language the snake is also an emblem of 
immortality. Its endless representation with its tail in its mouth
(Ouroboros), and the constant renewal of its skin and vigor, enliven 
teh symbols of continued youth and eternity. 

     The Serpent's reputation for positive medicinal and/or 
life-preserving qualities have also contributed to the honors of the 
Serpent as
STILL seen by the employment of the Caduceus. To this very day, the 
Hindus are taught that the end of every Universal Manifestation
(Kalpa) all things are re-absorbed into Deity and the the interval 
between "creations." He reposes upon the Serpant Sesha (Duration) who
is called Ananta, or, Endlessness. (See Ophiolatreiaby Hargrave 
Jennings) 





From rmatovic at ssk.com  Fri Mar 30 22:29:18 2001
From: rmatovic at ssk.com (rmatovic at ssk.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:29:18 -0000
Subject: Issues About Memory
In-Reply-To: <82.8f3779c.27f65d83@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9a31bu+l7ke@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15616


> > 
> 
> I think when you become part of a Wizard or Witches immediate family through 
> marriage or through a sudden display of magical powers on the part of your 
> child (Like Hermione) they sort of let you in on the secret. 

I think the MOM only uses memory charms for removing a single memory 
from someone who otherwise is completely unaware of the magical world 
to keep them unaware.  The Dursleys are aware of the magical world -- 
because of Lily, because of Harry, because of Harry going to Hogwarts -
- there's no need to conceal things from them.  Likewise, Hermione's 
parents are aware and supportive.  

An interesting question though is what happens if a muggle family with 
attitudes like the Dursley's produces offspring with magical powers?  
Perhaps some sort of investigation of the family attitudes is part of 
the selection procedure for muggle-born wizards before they are invited 
to Hogwarts?


Rebecca





From tobeybickle at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 22:34:14 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 17:34:14 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: was Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, now snakes
Message-ID: <78.12a92b3e.27f663e6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15617

In a message dated 3/30/01 2:26:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
rainy_lilac at yahoo.com writes:


> > > What kind of snake is Nagini?
> > > 
> > > Doreen
> > > 
> > 
> > Nagini couldn't be a Basilisk, because I'm pretty sure she's made 
> eye contact 
> > with Wormtail or Voldemort at some point...
> 
> 
> 
> A Naga is a kind of mythical serpent. Nagini sounds like a variation 
> on the name-- I think it would be translated as "little serpent"! 
> (Considering that she is 20 feet long, we can see JKR's sense of 
> humor at work here...) 
> 
> I found the following description on the web:
> 
> The word Naga is rooted in Sanskrit and means "Serpent". In the East 
> Indian pantheon it is connected with the Serpent Spirit and the
> Dragon Spirit. It has an quivalency to the Burmese Nats, or 
> god-serpents. In the Esoteric Tradition it is synonymous for Adepts, 
> or
> Initiates. In India and Egypt, and even in Central and South America, 
> the Naga stands for one who is wise. 
> 
>      Nagarjuna of India, for example, is shown with an aura, or halo, 
> of seven serpents which is an indication of a very high degree of
> Initiation. The symbolism of the seven serpents, usually cobras, are 
> also on Masonic aprons of certain systems in the Buddhistic ruins of
> Cambodia (Ankhor) and Ceylon. The great temple-builders of the famous 
> Ankhor Wat were considered to be the semi-divine Khmers.
> The avenue leading to the Temple is lined with the seven-headed Naga. 
> And even in Mexico, we find the "Naga" which becomes
> "Nagal." In China, the Naga is given the form of the Dragon and has a 
> direct association with the Emperor and is known as the "Son of
> Heaven"...while in Egypt the same association is termed 
> "King-Initiate". The Chinese are even said to have originated with the 
> Serpent
> demi-gods and even to speak their language, Naga-Krita. For a place 
> that has no serpents, Tibet, they are still known in a symbolic sense
> and are called "Lu!" (Naga). Nagarjuna called in Tibetan, Lu-trub. 
> 
>      In the Western traditions we find the sae ubiquity for the Naga, 
> or Serpent. One simple example is the Ancient Greek Goddess,
> Athena. She is known as a warrior Goddess as well as the Goddess of 
> Wisdom; her symbol being the Serpent as displayed on her
> personal shield. Of course, in Genesis the Serpent is a Naga who 
> instructs the new infant (humanity) in what is called the Knowledge of
> Good and Evil. The Christian church has, unfortunately transformed the 
> Initiate-Teacher into a tempting and negative demon-character.
> An apocryphal tradition says that Apollonius of Tyana, while on a 
> visit to India, was taught by the "Nagas" of Kashmir. (See The Life of
> Apollonius, by Philostratos.)  It is felt by many scholars of the 
> Western Tradition that the life of Apollonius was taken from the New
> Testament, or that the narratives of the New Testament have been taken 
> from the life of Apollonius. This is felt because of ! the
> undisputed and clear similarities of construction fo that particular 
> narrative. 
> 
>      Naga is one of a handful of rare words surviving the loss of the 
> first universal language. In Buddhism, Wisdom has always been ties,
> symbollically, to the figure of the Serpent. In the Western Tradition 
> it can be found as used by the Christ in the Gospel of Saint Matthew
> (x.16), "Be ye therefore as serpents, and harmless as doves." 
> 
>      In all mythological language the snake is also an emblem of 
> immortality. Its endless representation with its tail in its mouth
> (Ouroboros), and the constant renewal of its skin and vigor, enliven 
> teh symbols of continued youth and eternity. 
> 
>      The Serpent's reputation for positive medicinal and/or 
> life-preserving qualities have also contributed to the honors of the 
> Serpent as
> STILL seen by the employment of the Caduceus. To this very day, the 
> Hindus are taught that the end of every Universal Manifestation
> (Kalpa) all things are re-absorbed into Deity and the the interval 
> between "creations." He reposes upon the Serpant Sesha (Duration) who
> is called Ananta, or, Endlessness. (See Ophiolatreiaby Hargrave 
> Jennings) 
> 
> 
> 

Actually, I always assumed Nagini was named after Nagaina, the mother cobra 
in Kipling's Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. Nagaina was probaby named from the mythology 
you mention, because the story involves English colonists in India.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 22:38:34 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:38:34 -0000
Subject: was Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, now Nagini
In-Reply-To: <fd.4134a0b.27f65ee0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9a31ta+l9e7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15618


It looks like nagini is more specific than I thought. She is a female 
serpent in the Indian tradition. Here is one artistic rendering:

http://www.richardhoskins.com/293ser.htm

Here are a few more:

http://www.investindia.com/naga.html

"Snakes are a symbol of healing and primal energy. In art, the Naginis 
are figures of beauty. Vishnu reclines on the serpent Ananta 
eternally. In Kerala, snakes are worshipped as guardians of the home; 
and it is said that when a snake enters your life, there will be a new 
birth of creativity and wisdom."

I wonder, just how evil can Nagini be? Maybe there is more to her than 
even VOldemort knows?

--Suzanne 




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 22:40:44 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:40:44 -0000
Subject: was Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, now snakes
In-Reply-To: <78.12a92b3e.27f663e6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9a321c+l9m2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15619

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/30/01 2:26:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
> rainy_lilac at y... writes:
> 
> 
> > > > What kind of snake is Nagini?
> > > > 
> > > > Doreen
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Nagini couldn't be a Basilisk, because I'm pretty sure she's 
made 
> > eye contact 
> > > with Wormtail or Voldemort at some point...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > A Naga is a kind of mythical serpent. Nagini sounds like a 
variation 
> > on the name-- I think it would be translated as "little serpent"! 
> > (Considering that she is 20 feet long, we can see JKR's sense of 
> > humor at work here...) 
> > 
> > I found the following description on the web:
> > 
> > The word Naga is rooted in Sanskrit and means "Serpent". In the 
East 
> > Indian pantheon it is connected with the Serpent Spirit and the
> > Dragon Spirit. It has an quivalency to the Burmese Nats, or 
> > god-serpents. In the Esoteric Tradition it is synonymous for 
Adepts, 
> > or
> > Initiates. In India and Egypt, and even in Central and South 
America, 
> > the Naga stands for one who is wise. 
> > 
> >      Nagarjuna of India, for example, is shown with an aura, or 
halo, 
> > of seven serpents which is an indication of a very high degree of
> > Initiation. The symbolism of the seven serpents, usually cobras, 
are 
> > also on Masonic aprons of certain systems in the Buddhistic ruins 
of
> > Cambodia (Ankhor) and Ceylon. The great temple-builders of the 
famous 
> > Ankhor Wat were considered to be the semi-divine Khmers.
> > The avenue leading to the Temple is lined with the seven-headed 
Naga. 
> > And even in Mexico, we find the "Naga" which becomes
> > "Nagal." In China, the Naga is given the form of the Dragon and 
has a 
> > direct association with the Emperor and is known as the "Son of
> > Heaven"...while in Egypt the same association is termed 
> > "King-Initiate". The Chinese are even said to have originated with 
the 
> > Serpent
> > demi-gods and even to speak their language, Naga-Krita. For a 
place 
> > that has no serpents, Tibet, they are still known in a symbolic 
sense
> > and are called "Lu!" (Naga). Nagarjuna called in Tibetan, Lu-trub. 
> > 
> >      In the Western traditions we find the sae ubiquity for the 
Naga, 
> > or Serpent. One simple example is the Ancient Greek Goddess,
> > Athena. She is known as a warrior Goddess as well as the Goddess 
of 
> > Wisdom; her symbol being the Serpent as displayed on her
> > personal shield. Of course, in Genesis the Serpent is a Naga who 
> > instructs the new infant (humanity) in what is called the 
Knowledge of
> > Good and Evil. The Christian church has, unfortunately transformed 
the 
> > Initiate-Teacher into a tempting and negative demon-character.
> > An apocryphal tradition says that Apollonius of Tyana, while on a 
> > visit to India, was taught by the "Nagas" of Kashmir. (See The 
Life of
> > Apollonius, by Philostratos.)  It is felt by many scholars of the 
> > Western Tradition that the life of Apollonius was taken from the 
New
> > Testament, or that the narratives of the New Testament have been 
taken 
> > from the life of Apollonius. This is felt because of ! the
> > undisputed and clear similarities of construction fo that 
particular 
> > narrative. 
> > 
> >      Naga is one of a handful of rare words surviving the loss of 
the 
> > first universal language. In Buddhism, Wisdom has always been 
ties,
> > symbollically, to the figure of the Serpent. In the Western 
Tradition 
> > it can be found as used by the Christ in the Gospel of Saint 
Matthew
> > (x.16), "Be ye therefore as serpents, and harmless as doves." 
> > 
> >      In all mythological language the snake is also an emblem of 
> > immortality. Its endless representation with its tail in its mouth
> > (Ouroboros), and the constant renewal of its skin and vigor, 
enliven 
> > teh symbols of continued youth and eternity. 
> > 
> >      The Serpent's reputation for positive medicinal and/or 
> > life-preserving qualities have also contributed to the honors of 
the 
> > Serpent as
> > STILL seen by the employment of the Caduceus. To this very day, 
the 
> > Hindus are taught that the end of every Universal Manifestation
> > (Kalpa) all things are re-absorbed into Deity and the the interval 
> > between "creations." He reposes upon the Serpant Sesha (Duration) 
who
> > is called Ananta, or, Endlessness. (See Ophiolatreiaby Hargrave 
> > Jennings) 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> Actually, I always assumed Nagini was named after Nagaina, the 
mother cobra 
> in Kipling's Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. Nagaina was probaby named from the 
mythology 
> you mention, because the story involves English colonists in India.


Nagini is also apparently a popular name in India. I found it in a 
website about baby-names.




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Mar 30 23:38:36 2001
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 23:38:36 -0000
Subject: More nitpicking
Message-ID: <9a35ds+bshp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15620

Forgive me if this has been discussed and I somehow missed it, but 
why is Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them on Harry's booklist 
for his first year?  Isn't it the textbook for Care of Magical 
Creatures, which Harry doesn't start until his third year?


      ^
     / \
    /   \       Joywitch M. Curmudgeon
   /     \
__/       \__

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*

  "How come the Muggles don't hear the bus?" said Harry.
  "Them!" said Stan contemptuously.  "Don't listen properly, do 
they?  Don't look properly either.  Never notice nuffink, they don'."

*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*//*\\*




From sutowery at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 00:00:44 2001
From: sutowery at aol.com (sutowery at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:00:44 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More nitpicking
Message-ID: <e3.12800d17.27f6782c@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15621

 



From sutowery at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 00:08:01 2001
From: sutowery at aol.com (sutowery at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:08:01 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] More nitpicking
Message-ID: <16.af44ff7.27f679e1@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15622

Unsubscribe me, please


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vderark at bccs.org  Thu Mar 29 17:55:09 2001
From: vderark at bccs.org (Steve Vander Ark)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 17:55:09 -0000
Subject: How many students at Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <F128e4fDGCl9FopYC9800005ed9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <99vstt+950j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15623

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Charlotte lonc" <charlotte_nanterre at h...> 
wrote:
> I think there are 280 students at Hogwart:
> 10 people per class
> 4 houses
> 7 years.
> 
> I know it's not much, but it seems right to me
> 
> Rivi?re de Lune.

This is one of those topics that we've discussed a lot over the last 
months (years?). Those of us who have been here a while then are 
saying "Oh, my, here we go again!" when we see that, but those of you 
who are new might very well say "Well, WE didn't get a chance to 
discuss yet! Let's have at it!" 

I can't bring myself to stop anyone from discussing what I have 
enjoyed talking about in months past. I tend to favor the "smaller 
number of students" theories myself. But instead of jumping in on 
this question yet again, I will recommend that you read the page on 
the Lexicon about this subject. Go to 
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon and follow this path:

Wizarding World > Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry > 
Students and Houses > How many students are there at Hogwarts?

I do like it when people go through my front page so they register on 
my hit counter (and give a boost to my fragile webmaster ego), but I 
understand that most people would rather that I just link them 
straight to the page so here it is:

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/hogwarts_howmany.html

Steve Vander Ark
The Harry Potter Lexicon
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon 






From hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com  Sat Mar 31 01:03:58 2001
From: hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com (Sara Metz)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:03:58 -0600
Subject: Bathroom Issues
Message-ID: <20010330.190359.-431991.0.hermionegranger.gryffindor@juno.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15624


	I had an interesting thought earlier today as I was re-reading SS. In
SS, Harry and Ron find Hermione in one of the girls' bathrooms with the
troll. As they fight the troll, the bathroom gets kind of smashed up, but
they eventually defeat him. The next school year, in CoS, Harry, Ron and
Hermione spend quite a lot of time in Moaning Myrtle's Out-of-Order
girls' bathroom. Do you think that they could possibly be the same
bathroom? 
	If anybody's already brought this up, sorry! But if not, what does
everybody think?

Sara
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Proud of my **120%** Harry Potter Obsession Rating (Thank you,
fanfiction!)

________________________________________________________________
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From ickle_squidge at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Mar 30 11:35:57 2001
From: ickle_squidge at yahoo.co.uk (ickle_squidge at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:35:57 -0000
Subject: birthdays???
Message-ID: <9a1r2t+g673@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15625

what i want to know is why no one but harry has a birthday. 
apparently hermione's is 19th sept, and ron's is 1st 
march.apparently. where are these mentioned?? and what about everyone 
else? this is just something that has annoyed me for a while.




From pbnesbit at msn.com  Sat Mar 31 02:49:56 2001
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (pbnesbit at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 02:49:56 -0000
Subject: birthdays???
In-Reply-To: <9a1r2t+g673@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a3gkk+vv1o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15626

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ickle_squidge at y... wrote:
> what i want to know is why no one but harry has a birthday. 
> apparently hermione's is 19th sept, and ron's is 1st 
> march.apparently. where are these mentioned?? and what about 
everyone 
> else? this is just something that has annoyed me for a while.

Well, Hermione's we know from an AOL chat JKR did (and I believe it's 
also mentioned in PoA).  Ron's we know from the Comic Relief chat she 
did.  She hasn't mentioned anyone else's birthday yet.  

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker (who is hoping she'll tell us when Severus, Sirius, & Remus 
were born) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------
'...I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper 
death...'  Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

'Sarcasm--just one more service I offer'  T-shirt message
----------------------------------------------------------------------




From celeste_827 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 02:57:44 2001
From: celeste_827 at yahoo.com (Celeste Chang)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 02:57:44 -0000
Subject: was Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, now Nagini
In-Reply-To: <9a31ta+l9e7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a3h38+magf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15627

I dunno about the Nagini thing. In response to another message, Nagini 
was certainly not twenty feet long... more like seven or nine feet. 
JKR seemed to make somewhat of a miscalculation with lengths with the 
basilisk- she mentions something about the skin of the basilisk in 
CoS- "the creature that had shed it must have been twenty feet long." 
Wasn't sure if there was an 'at least' somewhere in that sentence, but 
twenty feet isn't long enough for a serpent of the size that was 
described later on... it's like a telephone pole length, maybe a 
little more, and a serpent that long can only be so wide. The 
anacondas and pythons reach that sort of length, and when you imagine 
basilisk you imagine something much, much bigger in diameter and 
length than an anaconda.

But I digress. It is remotely possible that Nagini could be some sort 
of Nagah, able to shift between a half-serpent and complete serpent 
state, maybe even human form, but considering her behavior so far, it 
seems like she is a normal serpent. You never know, however.

- Celeste

(snip)
 > "Snakes are a symbol of healing and primal energy. In art, the 
Naginis 
> are figures of beauty. Vishnu reclines on the serpent Ananta 
> eternally. In Kerala, snakes are worshipped as guardians of the 
home; 
> and it is said that when a snake enters your life, there will be a 
new 
> birth of creativity and wisdom."
> 
> I wonder, just how evil can Nagini be? Maybe there is more to her 
than 
> even VOldemort knows?
> 
> --Suzanne




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 03:21:21 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:21:21 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many students at Hogwarts?
Message-ID: <98.12b003bb.27f6a731@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15628

I like the smaller number theory.. 5 girls and 5 boys each year in each 
house. I think the biggest piece of evidence against this (The supposed 200 
Slytherin at the Match) Is probably just exaggeration to show how many people 
it seemed like at the moment.. looking down on the mob of 70 people, plus 
teachers and fans, all covered in green robes, was probably intimidating.



From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 03:23:34 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:23:34 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Bathroom Issues
Message-ID: <89.4784bff.27f6a7b6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15629

In a message dated 3/30/01 5:26:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
hermionegranger.gryffindor at juno.com writes:

<<  I had an interesting thought earlier today as I was re-reading SS. In
 SS, Harry and Ron find Hermione in one of the girls' bathrooms with the
 troll. As they fight the troll, the bathroom gets kind of smashed up, but
 they eventually defeat him. The next school year, in CoS, Harry, Ron and
 Hermione spend quite a lot of time in Moaning Myrtle's Out-of-Order
 girls' bathroom. Do you think that they could possibly be the same
 bathroom? 
    If anybody's already brought this up, sorry! But if not, what does
 everybody think?
 
 Sara
 Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
 Proud of my **120%** Harry Potter Obsession Rating (Thank you,
 fanfiction!) >>


I'm not sure, but I think the two bathrooms were on different floors. 
Besides, Hermione said she didn't like going into Myrtle's bathroom, and they 
said that the bathroom was out of order in CoS because Myrtle kept flushing 
the toilets.



From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 03:25:25 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:25:25 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] birthdays???
Message-ID: <60.cee9917.27f6a825@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15630

what i want to know is why no one but harry has a birthday. 
apparently hermione's is 19th sept, and ron's is 1st 
march.apparently. where are these mentioned?? and what about everyone 
else? this is just something that has annoyed me for a while.


Those dates are all from interviews with Rowling, and they're supported with 
astrolgical evidence from the books-- Hermione being named after a moon of 
Jupiter, Neptune's odd angle with Mars before Harry passes out, etc.



From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 03:27:31 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:27:31 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: was Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, now Nagini
Message-ID: <a0.12354f37.27f6a8a3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15631

In a message dated 3/30/01 6:58:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
celeste_827 at yahoo.com writes:

<< I dunno about the Nagini thing. In response to another message, Nagini 
 was certainly not twenty feet long... more like seven or nine feet. 
 JKR seemed to make somewhat of a miscalculation with lengths with the 
 basilisk- she mentions something about the skin of the basilisk in 
 CoS- "the creature that had shed it must have been twenty feet long." 
 Wasn't sure if there was an 'at least' somewhere in that sentence, but 
 twenty feet isn't long enough for a serpent of the size that was 
 described later on... it's like a telephone pole length, maybe a 
 little more, and a serpent that long can only be so wide. The 
 anacondas and pythons reach that sort of length, and when you imagine 
 basilisk you imagine something much, much bigger in diameter and 
 length than an anaconda. >>


Yeah, I think I confused their lengths.. Nagini is probably shorter that 10 
feet, and the Basilisk is much longer than 20. It's skin could have looked 2 
feet long because it dried and shrunk.



From jellycrys at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 31 03:47:37 2001
From: jellycrys at hotmail.com (crystal white)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:47:37 -0500
Subject: Ghosts from violent deaths
Message-ID: <F246rRjbDt3HvoFOAmE00005790@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15632

I sent this out a while ago, but I got a server message saying that delivery 
had been "delayed" and that I shouldn't resend it.  Well, as I have not seen 
it come up yet, I'm ignoring them and resending it. :P

**********************************************************************

I believe it has been brought up in many movies (the recent version of
Casper, the Friendly Ghost comes to mind) where it is said that people turn 
to ghosts when they die because of "unfinished business". Moaning Myrtle 
says that she made sure to become a ghost because she wanted to torture the 
girl who had previously making fun of her. The others, Nearly Headless Nick, 
Bloody Baron... had obvious reasons for becoming ghosts. Perhaps Proff. 
Binns found it his duty to continue teaching and therefore became a ghost. 
Peeves is a bit different because he's a poltergeist.  Anyone know the 
theoretical difference?  If HE has any unfinished business, I think it's 
just that he wanted more time to have fun. GO PEEVES!! :@)

** Apologies for not being able to quote chapters and page numbers.  I am 
going at this from memory, as my little sister has all the books at home and 
I am at school. **

-Crystal :@)
_________________________________________________________________
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From jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu  Sat Mar 31 04:19:52 2001
From: jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 23:19:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ghosts from violent deaths
In-Reply-To: <F246rRjbDt3HvoFOAmE00005790@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103302315110.28296-100000@er6.rutgers.edu>

No: HPFGUIDX 15633

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, crystal white wrote:

> Peeves is a bit different because he's a poltergeist.  Anyone know the 
> theoretical difference?  If HE has any unfinished business, I think it's 
> just that he wanted more time to have fun. GO PEEVES!! :@)

A poltergeist is quite different from a ghost; ghosts were once human,
poltergeists never were.  They are spirits, a concentration of
malevolent energy.  Unlike Peeves, AFAIK, the trad'l poltergeist of
folklore does not have an anthropomorphized identity (a name, a
personality, and so on), but is really more an evil force.  The general
belief is also usually that poltergeists feed off the energy of teenaged
boys, and that manifestations are particularly bad, or in some cases
only present, when there are teenaged boys in the home.  Poltergeists,
like ghosts, seem place-bound; I think exorcism is the prescribed method
for eliminating them, as they are very close to demons?  

--jen :)

* * * * * * 
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jfaulkne/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Mar 31 07:03:57 2001
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 07:03:57 -0000
Subject: Ghosts from violent deaths
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103302315110.28296-100000@er6.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <9a3vgt+451u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15634

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at e...> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, crystal white wrote:
> 
> > Peeves is a bit different because he's a poltergeist.  Anyone 
know the 
> > theoretical difference?  If HE has any unfinished business, I 
think it's 
> > just that he wanted more time to have fun. GO PEEVES!! :@)
> 
> A poltergeist is quite different from a ghost; ghosts were once 
human,
> poltergeists never were.  They are spirits, a concentration of
> malevolent energy.  Unlike Peeves, AFAIK, the trad'l poltergeist of
> folklore does not have an anthropomorphized identity (a name, a
> personality, and so on), but is really more an evil force.  The 
general
> belief is also usually that poltergeists feed off the energy of 
teenaged
> boys, and that manifestations are particularly bad, or in some cases
> only present, when there are teenaged boys in the home.  
Poltergeists,
> like ghosts, seem place-bound; I think exorcism is the prescribed 
method
> for eliminating them, as they are very close to demons?  
> 
> --jen :)
> 
> * * * * * * 
The ghosts (in HP anyway) aren't place bound: see the headless hunt 
at Nick's deathday party, and Moaning Myrtle, who stalks Olive Hornby 
until she is banished back to Hogwarts by the MoM.  
Catherine




From jellycrys at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 28 04:08:58 2001
From: jellycrys at hotmail.com (crystal white)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:08:58 -0500
Subject: Ghosts stemming from violent Deaths
Message-ID: <F134fAj81EYtN3Isam500001b67@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15635

I believe it has been brought up in many movies (the recent version of 
Casper, the Friendly Ghost comes to mind) where it is said that people turn 
to ghosts when they die because of "unfinished business".  Moaning Myrtle 
says that she made sure to become a ghost because she wanted to torture the 
girl who had previously making fun of her. The others, Nearly Headless Nick, 
Bloody Baron... had obvious reasons for becoming ghosts. Perhaps Proff. 
Binns found it his duty to continue teaching and therefore became a ghost.  
I personally think Peeves became a ghost so he could continue to wreak 
playful havoc on Hogwarts and to drive Filch mad :-)

** Apologies for not being able to quote chapters and page numbers.  I am 
going at this from memory, as my little sister has all the books at home and 
I am at school. **

-Crystal :@)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From jennifer.k at lycos.com  Sat Mar 31 08:50:11 2001
From: jennifer.k at lycos.com (jennifer.k at lycos.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 08:50:11 -0000
Subject: birthdays???
In-Reply-To: <9a1r2t+g673@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a45o3+hn53@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15636

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., ickle_squidge at y... wrote:

> what i want to know is why no one but harry has a birthday. 
> apparently hermione's is 19th sept, and ron's is 1st 
> march.apparently. where are these mentioned?? and what about 
everyone else? this is just something that has annoyed me for a while.

Well, there have been little comments about their birthdays - for 
instance, when Hermione talks about the 10 galleons she sets aside to 
buy herself a birthdaypresent. But those mentions are few, I agree. 

>From AOL-chat:
 
Q: Ron and Hermione give Harry gifts... does he ever give them 
birthday presents? 
J.K.R: Yes, Harry does buy presents back! But I've never focused on 
their birthdays yet -- there hasn't been room! 

This statement (the "yet"-part) indicates that more attention may be 
payed to them somewhere in the future (when there are room!)
So bear it! :)

/Jennifer

??????????????????

(also AOL-chat)

Q: Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape? 
J.K.R.: Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on 
a turban. 

??????????????????






From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Sat Mar 31 09:10:12 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 01:10:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Task and Crouch-Moody as Teacher
Message-ID: <20010331091012.B6DB836FA@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15637

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From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Sat Mar 31 10:09:09 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 02:09:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Question about First Feast?
Message-ID: <20010331100909.D88CF36FA@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15638

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From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 10:10:51 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 05:10:51 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about First Feast?
Message-ID: <73.c50659f.27f7072b@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15639

In a message dated 3/31/01 2:09:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
screamingsilence at gundamwing.org writes:


> I don't know if this has come up in discussion yet, and I've yet had the 
> time to go through the thousands of posts to look(I'm sorry!), but I was 
> wondering...
> Does anyone remember in the first book, the night of the first feast? When 
> Harry and his future friends were sorted? When Harry looked over at Snape, 
> he felt his scar burn with pain for a moment. Why is this? 
> I'm really sorry if that question has already been answered/debated, but 
> it's been bugging me for a while! I'd really like people's opinion about 
> it. Thanks, everyone!
> ~Echo
> 
> 

Because Quirrel was next to Snape? 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Mar 31 10:22:59 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 11:22:59 +0100
Subject: ADMIN: The rules of the HP-way (helpful stuff for all, but especially for newbies)
Message-ID: <016601c0b9cc$8fd5e300$593570c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 15640

Hi everyone!  

First of all, thanks for being considerate about titling posts and using the OT Chatter list for off-topic subjects; this is really helpful for those of us who want to (a) find or (b) avoid things.  There are a few 'head-scratchy' message headings slipping through the net, but the vast majority of us have been really good about labelling posts carefully and using prefixes such as SHIP, FF, MOVIE, SPOILER and so on (whoa!!! It seems we also have an anti-FILK faction now...<g>).    

Permit me to use an analogy, as a brief reminder to all:

When you're driving a car, you need to be considerate of the pedestrians around you.  Make sure to use your indicators to let them know where you're heading; look in the mirror before you make a manuoevre; don't BLOW YOUR HORN at them; under no circumstances attempt injure or kill anyone with your careless driving.  If you see something down a side-street, you'll need to keep your eyes on the road ahead to avoid crashing into that Whomping Willow on the corner.  

All drivers are also pedestrians, so when you're on the road, you should drive your vehicle as you would expect others to drive theirs when you're on foot.  Do as you would be done by.  This is the HP-way Code.  

Some pedestrians and learner drivers new to HP-town might not be sure where they are going, and we might forgive them a bit of confused jaywalking or Sunday driving.  However, they could think to check the map and tourist guides supplied before they leave the house.  Us regular drivers (especially the juggernauts) should not dazzle the poor newbies with our headlights, but instead wind down our windows and give them polite directions to their destination.  What we say about them once we've wound the windows back up is between us and the gatepost...  

[Did I say 'brief' reminder?]

The HP-way cops have supplied the following guides for regular drivers and tourists alike.  


Very Frequently Asked Questions (plus some non frequent things new members ought to read nevertheless!!!).  We do update this, BTW.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm


Netiquette tips.  It's important that everyone reads this from time to time - it does change:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/netiquette2.txt


The Portkey - a quick way to be in the right place at the right time (links to various sister groups and club areas):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/%20%20Portkey.htm


Guide to shorthand and slang terms:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPforGrownups-shorthand.htm



Announcements list - any *news* or information on *new* things or corrections of either (i.e. not a discussion list - post your responses on the main list or on OT Chatter).  Info here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPfGU-Announcements.txt


OT Chatter.  Discussion of anything off-topic, but a few borderline HP topics, such as those listed here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/HPfGU-OTChatter.txt


Neil

The Mod Squad...on HP-way Patrol

_____________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator (revving up)

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose, 
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint 
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything 
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Sat Mar 31 10:45:01 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 02:45:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: was Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, now Nagini
Message-ID: <20010331104501.8695736F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15641

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From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 11:06:07 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 03:06:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about First Feast?
In-Reply-To: <20010331100909.D88CF36FA@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <20010331110607.98273.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15642


--- Chained By Freedom <screamingsilence at gundamwing.org> wrote:
> Does anyone remember in the first book, the night of the first
> feast? When Harry and his future friends were sorted? When Harry
> looked over at Snape, he felt his scar burn with pain for a moment.
> Why is this? 


Because he's sitting beside Quirrell and it's really Quirrell (or
what's under his turban) who's causing the reaction.

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text



From Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk  Sat Mar 31 12:33:34 2001
From: Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk (Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 12:33:34 -0000
Subject: How many students at Hogwarts?
In-Reply-To: <98.12b003bb.27f6a731@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9a4iqu+6j5q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15643

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> I like the smaller number theory.. 5 girls and 5 boys each year in 
each 
> house. I think the biggest piece of evidence against this (The 
supposed 200 
> Slytherin at the Match) Is probably just exaggeration to show how 
many people 
> it seemed like at the moment.. looking down on the mob of 70 
people, plus 
> teachers and fans, all covered in green robes, was probably 
intimidating.

Actually the biggest piece of evidence against the small number 
theory (which I actually prefer) is Jo Rowling her said.  I was at 
one of her readings when she was asked how many pupils there were at 
Hogwarts and she said that there were about a thousand.

Of course, she could be wrong ....

Pam




From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 12:36:49 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 07:36:49 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many students at Hogwarts?
Message-ID: <e1.1277df88.27f72961@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15644

In a message dated 3/31/01 4:33:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
Pam at barkingdog.demon.co.uk writes:


> Actually the biggest piece of evidence against the small number 
> theory (which I actually prefer) is Jo Rowling her said.  I was at 
> one of her readings when she was asked how many pupils there were at 
> Hogwarts and she said that there were about a thousand.
> 
> Of course, she could be wrong ....
> 
> Pam
> 
> 
> 

I guess I should have answered yes to that "Have you ever disagreed with 
Rowling based on evidence from the books" question... That'll bring me up to 
a 84% :D


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Sat Mar 31 12:52:04 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 04:52:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about First Feast?
Message-ID: <20010331125204.712D336F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15645

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From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 12:59:38 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 07:59:38 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about First Feast?
Message-ID: <e1.1277df89.27f72eba@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15646

In a message dated 3/31/01 4:53:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
screamingsilence at gundamwing.org writes:


> >Because Quirrel was next to Snape? 
> >
> 
> If that's the reason, then wouldn't Harry feel the same pain every time he 
> was in site of him? Why just that one night?
> 
> 

Maybe it was because it was the first time he saw Quirrel in the school 
setting.. or maybe Voldemort was just in a bad mood that night.. oR maybe it 
was because Snape used to be a Death Eater. I don't know.. that sort of thing 
is kind of subjective.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Sat Mar 31 13:04:43 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 05:04:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many students at Hogwarts?
Message-ID: <20010331130443.197F1274E@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15647

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From screamingsilence at gundamwing.org  Sat Mar 31 13:14:41 2001
From: screamingsilence at gundamwing.org (Chained By Freedom)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 05:14:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about First Feast?
Message-ID: <20010331131441.82DAA274F@sitemail.everyone.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15648

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From tobeybickle at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 13:31:48 2001
From: tobeybickle at aol.com (tobeybickle at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 08:31:48 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about First Feast?
Message-ID: <44.c98bea5.27f73644@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15649

In a message dated 3/31/01 5:15:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
screamingsilence at gundamwing.org writes:


> >Maybe it was because it was the first time he saw Quirrel in the school 
> >setting.. or maybe Voldemort was just in a bad mood that night.. oR maybe 
> it 
> >was because Snape used to be a Death Eater. I don't know.. that sort of 
> thing 
> >is kind of subjective.
> 
> That's why I asked the question, to get different viewpoints :)
> I'm thinking it has something to do with the fact that it was the first 
> time Harry had been in the presence of V. since he was a baby and he caused 
> V. to lose his power. As always, I could be and probably am wrong ;)
> ~Echo
> 
> 

Except that Voldemort was already attached to Quirrel when Harry saw him in 
The Leaky Cauldron, wasn't he?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aichambaye at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 13:55:04 2001
From: aichambaye at yahoo.com (aichambaye at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 13:55:04 -0000
Subject: Question about First Feast?
In-Reply-To: <44.c98bea5.27f73644@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9a4njo+9391@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15650

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., tobeybickle at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/31/01 5:15:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> screamingsilence at g... writes:
> 
> 
> > >Maybe it was because it was the first time he saw Quirrel in the 
school 
> > >setting.. or maybe Voldemort was just in a bad mood that night.. 
oR maybe 
> > it 
> > >was because Snape used to be a Death Eater. I don't know.. that 
sort of 
> > thing 
> > >is kind of subjective.
> > 
> > That's why I asked the question, to get different viewpoints :)
> > I'm thinking it has something to do with the fact that it was the 
first 
> > time Harry had been in the presence of V. since he was a baby and 
he caused 
> > V. to lose his power. As always, I could be and probably am 
wrong ;)
> > ~Echo
> > 
> > 
> 
> Except that Voldemort was already attached to Quirrel when Harry 
saw him in 
> The Leaky Cauldron, wasn't he?
> 

I don't think so. Voldemort found it necessary to be with his servant 
after his servant failed to steal the Philosopher's Stone the first 
time (that day in teh leaky cauldron was the day Q. tried to steal 
it). 

Heather M.




From gypsycaine at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 14:33:05 2001
From: gypsycaine at yahoo.com (Denise R)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 09:33:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about First Feast?
References: <e1.1277df89.27f72eba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <072101c0b9ef$7fcc6d80$10ccfea9@ameritech.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15651

When he met Quirrell in the (tavern), Voldie hadn't "attached" to him
yet--he was still pure human.  The school is the first time he's in the
turban.

:)

(Had asked this before, and someone else pointed it out, but not certain who
to credit for helping me!)
            ~Dee~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Get ICQ'd!  21282374
**************************
>From there to here,
from here to there,
funny things
are everywhere
         Dr. Seuss
**************************
----- Original Message -----
From: <tobeybickle at aol.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Question about First Feast?


> In a message dated 3/31/01 4:53:39 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> screamingsilence at gundamwing.org writes:
>
>
> > >Because Quirrel was next to Snape?
> > >
> >
> > If that's the reason, then wouldn't Harry feel the same pain every time
he
> > was in site of him? Why just that one night?
> >
> >
>
> Maybe it was because it was the first time he saw Quirrel in the school
> setting.. or maybe Voldemort was just in a bad mood that night.. oR maybe
it
> was because Snape used to be a Death Eater. I don't know.. that sort of
thing
> is kind of subjective.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> _______ADMIN________ADMIN_______ADMIN__________
>
> From Monday 12th March, all OT (Off-Topic) messages must be posted to the
HPFGU-OTChatter YahooGroup, to make it easier for everyone to sort through
the messages they want to read and those they don't.
>
> Therefore...if you want to be able to post and read OT messages, point
your cyberbroomstick at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter to
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From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sat Mar 31 14:50:46 2001
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady at mymailstation.com)
Date: 31 Mar 2001 06:50:46 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about First Feast? and small ADMIN request
Message-ID: <20010331145046.3587.cpmta@c016.sfo.cp.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15652

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From editor at texas.net  Sat Mar 31 16:35:16 2001
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Lewanski)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:35:16 -0600
Subject: Nagini's size (was now Nagini)
References: <20010331104501.8695736F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <3AC60744.79DF490B@texas.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15653

Chained By Freedom wrote:

> >JKR seemed to make somewhat of a miscalculation with lengths with the
>
> >basilisk- she mentions something about the skin of the basilisk in
> >CoS- "the creature that had shed it must have been twenty feet long."
>
> I think perhaps JKR described it like that on purpose. Remember, we're
> reading the books as if from Harry's viewpoint. To Harry, it looked 20
> feet. He was 12 when this happened, correct? Most 12 year olds can't
> accurately pinpoint something's length or size. Even if he could, I
> don't think he was at a state to when he found it. That's just my
> opinion, however. :)

Also remember that the basilisk is close to a thousand years old. It
*has* been out other times in the past than this week. It's conceivable
that the skin is old, from a molt say, fifty years ago? Or further. The
length of time it takes things like basilisk skin to crumble to dust
might be affected by the fact that they're magical.

--Amanda, muddying the waters as usual


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rainy_lilac at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 16:57:24 2001
From: rainy_lilac at yahoo.com (rainy_lilac at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 16:57:24 -0000
Subject: was Mrs. Figg, Crookshanks, now Nagini
In-Reply-To: <20010331104501.8695736F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <9a529k+g99a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15654

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Chained By Freedom <screamingsilence at g...> 
wrote:
> >I dunno about the Nagini thing. In response to another message, 
Nagini 
> >was certainly not twenty feet long... more like seven or nine feet. 

I don't ahve my books with me, but I sseem to remember in GoF 
Voldemort threatening to feed Wormtail to Nagini, andf then saying 
that she will instead feast on Harry Potter. My impression from even 
the first chapter is that she would have to be one big mama of a 
snake.

One of my friends raises pythons and boas-- a nine foot long python is 
nothing, believe me.






From williamhause2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 17:19:48 2001
From: williamhause2000 at yahoo.com (williamhause2000 at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 17:19:48 -0000
Subject: How do we explain Moody's actions knowing he is actuall Crouch?
Message-ID: <9a53jk+32s9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15655

Moody is a good guy but Crouch is bad.  We must reconsider all of his 
actions now.  Why does he encourage Harry and Hermiony to becom 
Aurors?  Especially if he believed Harry would be dead soon?  Why 
does he advise Harry to use "Constant Vigilance"?




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 17:58:47 2001
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:58:47 +0200
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Feeling his pain
References: <9a2dfu+beco@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013901c0ba0c$3c13fa50$2271023e@shasta>

No: HPFGUIDX 15656

Milz wrote,

> Dumbledore said that his theory about Harry's scar pain was that
> whenever Voldy was nearby or was feeling particularly murderous the
> scar hurts. Would the same be true for Voldemort? If Harry were to
> feel particularly "murderous" or any other intense emotion did
> Voldemort feel that too? If so, was Voldemort using the scar as a
> means of monitoring Harry? Also, if Harry feels pain when Voldy is
> violent, could Voldy feel pain when Harry is even minimally
> satisfied? Could this partially explain why Voldy remained weak for
> all those years?.

Wow, Milz!!

That offers a *very* interesting explanation of the "ancient magic" that
protects Harry from Voldy. What if Dumbledore's ancient magic consists in an
amplification of the connection created by Harry's scar, creating a symmetry
between Harry's and Volfy's strength and freedom. Thus, whenever Harry is
held in bondage, the Dark Lord is also bound (at least in regard to Harry).
Perhaps Dumbledore placed Harry with the Dursely's precisely because he knew
they would mistreat Harry--and hence protect him from the big V.

I do see some potential problems with this hypothesis, but it does sound
like the kind of thing Jo would cook up. Any thoughts, folks?

Oh--and incidentally: granting the above, I wonder what would happen to
Voldy if Harry were brutally murdered ...

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practising
inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers,
but did Aberforth hide? No he did not! He held his head high."




From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 18:03:04 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:03:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] How do we explain Moody's actions knowing he is actuall Crouch?
In-Reply-To: <9a53jk+32s9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010331180304.87478.qmail@web11101.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15657

> Moody is a good guy but Crouch is bad.  We must reconsider all of
> his actions now.  Why does he encourage Harry and Hermiony to becom

> Aurors?  Especially if he believed Harry would be dead soon?  Why 
> does he advise Harry to use "Constant Vigilance"?
> 

Because he has to act like the real Moody would act so nobody gets
suspicious.  

And yes, for those who are interested, my local library's copy of GoF
came in and I stayed up late every night reading until I finished
last night (or rather very early this morning).  

My immediate impression is that this book is a little more ragged
than the first three; might be the length as she had to cram so much
backstory into it.  

Funniest scene in the entire series so far: Mr. Weasley trying to
connect with Uncle Vernon after crashing through the fireplace at the
Dursley's: "I collect plugs.  And batteries.  My wife thinks I'm mad
but there you are."

__________________________________________________
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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 31 18:41:42 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:41:42 -0000
Subject: What kind of snake is Nagini
Message-ID: <9a58d6+9fff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15658

	I can't find the reference, but I am sure I read an interview with 
Rowling around the time PoA was released, in which she was asked if 
there was anything about the earlier books she wished she could go back 
and change. She replied that she had thought when she wrote PS/SS that 
boa constrictors were poisonous, and had since learned that they 
aren't.
	Does anyone else remember seeing this?
Pippin





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 31 18:49:16 2001
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naama_gat at hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 18:49:16 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV? 
Message-ID: <9a58rc+ngs0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15661

Hi,

I've been reading quite a few posts explaining things (away, mostly) 
on the basis of the Harry's POV premise ("oh, well, the stories are 
told from Harry's POV, so possibly ... the Slytherins are really nice 
fellas, the basilisk is shorter, the number of tables in at the ball 
is smaller.." etc.) 

I have a problem with this type of argument, but before going off the 
deep end, I wanted to ask, is there evidence that the stories are 
*coloured* by Harry's POV? 

Just to make clear what I mean by "colouring", I'll give an example 
of how the narrative *could* have been coloured by Harry's POV:
After Harry learned that Cho was going to the ball with Cedric, he 
"suddenly realised that Cedric was in fact a useless pretty-boy who 
didn't have enough brains to fill an eggcup." (347; Brit) If our 
perception of Cedric was coloured by Harry's perception of him, we 
would at this point have had a bad opinion of him, only finding out 
later (with Harry) that he is really an exceptionally decent guy. 
But that is not the case. The way we are told of Harry's view of 
Cedric makes it very clear that it *is* Harry's point of view (and 
that it's the outcome of jealousy, not clear judgement), so it 
doesn't colour *our* perception of Cedric as a decent guy. 

So, is there evidence for such colouring of the narrative? I couldn't 
think of anything that fits, but maybe other people here can come up 
with examples?


Thanks.

Naama





From mgrantwich at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 19:22:02 2001
From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 11:22:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's POV? 
In-Reply-To: <9a58mn+ke85@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20010331192202.77935.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15663

--- naama_gat at hotmail.com wrote:
> I have a problem with this type of argument, but before going off
> the deep end, I wanted to ask, is there evidence that the stories 
> are *coloured* by Harry's POV? 


Perhaps the question should be: Are they coloured permanently?

Because we do see that Harry has strong opinions about people like
Cedric and Snape and they influence how he feels about and deals with
them.  But if he's wrong, we find out at the same time he does
(within the same book) and the impressions are corrected.

I can't detect an example of Harry completely misreading someone that
will have to be corrected in Books 5,6,7.  Unless Dumbledore turns
out to be working for the Other Side in which case all bets are off.

I have a suggestion about Snape's task:  what if he's brewing up some
Polyjuice Potion so he can impersonate - not Crouch or Moody - but
Dumbledore himself.  That way Dumbledore can be at Hogwarts and at
the same time go off to meet with other wizards, giants, etc. in the
battle against V.  


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From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Mar 31 19:22:49 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:22:49 -0000
Subject: Nagini's size (was now Nagini)
In-Reply-To: <3AC60744.79DF490B@texas.net>
Message-ID: <9a5aq9+rj6r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15664

> Chained By Freedom wrote:
> > >JKR seemed to make somewhat of a miscalculation with lengths 
with the basilisk- she mentions something about the skin of the 
basilisk in CoS- "the creature that had shed it must have been twenty 
feet long."
> >
> > Amanda:
> > I think perhaps JKR described it like that on purpose. Remember, 
we're reading the books as if from Harry's viewpoint. To Harry, it 
looked 20 feet. He was 12 when this happened, correct? Most 12 year 
olds can't accurately pinpoint something's length or size. Even if he 
could, I don't think he was at a state to when he found it. That's 
just my opinion, however. :)
> 
> Also remember that the basilisk is close to a thousand years old. It
> *has* been out other times in the past than this week. It's 
conceivable that the skin is old, from a molt say, fifty years ago? 
Or further. The length of time it takes things like basilisk skin to 
crumble to dust might be affected by the fact that they're magical.
>
> rainy lilac:
> I don't ahve my books with me, but I sseem to remember in GoF 
Voldemort threatening to feed Wormtail to Nagini, and then saying 
that she will instead feast on Harry Potter. My impression from even 
the first chapter is that she would have to be one big mama of a 
snake. <<<<<<<<<<<<

First off, thanks to all for the terrific snake info and comments.  
As to the current discussion, the basilisk from the chamber and 
Nagini are two different snakes.  (Or am I just misunderstanding the 
discussion?)  Harry killed the chamber basilisk with Gryffindor's 
sword.  Nagini is Vold's current snake companion/pet/minion.  In GoF, 
Frank Bryce estimates Nagini's length at about twelve feet, and if I 
remember right, that's all we hear, isn't it?  To me, the statement 
that the Basilisk's shedded skin is about twenty feet long seems more 
descriptive info about the basilisk from JKR, rather than a 
guesstimate from Harry.  What I mean is, I take that as her way of 
giving us an idea of the snake's size, and should be taken at face 
value.  The only other descriptives we get about the basilisk 
are "enormous," "thick as an oak trunk," and with fangs about the 
size of the sword Harry was holding.  This info never struck me 
as 'from Harry's POV, should be taken with a grain of salt', but 
rather as straight from JKR...

Kelley




From jellycrys at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 31 19:27:33 2001
From: jellycrys at hotmail.com (crystal white)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:27:33 -0500
Subject: The snake Harry set free.....
Message-ID: <F52OwgZoKnD7zoJDpz10000624f@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15665

Here's an interesting thought - could Nagini be the snake that Harry 
accidentally let loose?

-Crystal :@)
_________________________________________________________________
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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Mar 31 19:36:36 2001
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 19:36:36 -0000
Subject: The snake Harry set free.....
In-Reply-To: <F52OwgZoKnD7zoJDpz10000624f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <9a5bk4+h9ga@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15666

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "crystal white" <jellycrys at h...> wrote:
> Here's an interesting thought - could Nagini be the snake that Harry 
> accidentally let loose?

Not unless the zoo was wrong about it being a boa constrictor. They're 
not venomous, but see my earlier post. It could be a Flint.
Pippin





From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Mar 31 20:10:57 2001
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 20:10:57 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV?
In-Reply-To: <9a58rc+ngs0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a5dkh+2c8c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15667

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., naama_gat at h... wrote:
> I've been reading quite a few posts explaining things (away, mostly)
> on the basis of the Harry's POV premise ("oh, well, the stories are 
> told from Harry's POV, so possibly ... the Slytherins are really 
nice fellas, the basilisk is shorter, the number of tables in at the 
ball is smaller.." etc.) 
> 
> I have a problem with this type of argument, but before going off 
the deep end, I wanted to ask, is there evidence that the stories are 
> *coloured* by Harry's POV? 
> <snip>
> The way we are told of Harry's view of Cedric makes it very clear 
that it *is* Harry's point of view (and that it's the outcome of 
jealousy, not clear judgement), so it doesn't colour *our* perception 
of Cedric as a decent guy. 
> 
> So, is there evidence for such colouring of the narrative? I 
couldn't think of anything that fits, but maybe other people here can 
come up with examples?
> 
> Naama

I love where you're going with this, Naama, as this has never sat 
well with me, either.  Like Magda, Snape is the best I can come up 
with, and this doesn't really seem to fit your criteria 
of 'colouring' on Harry's part.  We're mislead in book 1, thinking 
that Snape is the 'bad guy' when it turns out to be Quirrell, though, 
at least thus far, Harry's belief that Snape hates him does seem to 
be correct.  (Quirrell confirms this to Harry, and while he is 
the 'bad guy', I can't see his motive for lying to Harry about 
Snape's hatred of him.  And, later Dumble confirms at least that 
James and Snape detested each other, even if he makes no comment as 
to Snape's hatred of Harry.)  As to Harry's POV, the only times this 
argument seems to have any real validity to me are in regards to 
matters of the private lives of the professors, whether McGonagall 
has a mentoring relationship to Hermione, what level of friendship 
Hermione and Ginny have, etc.  Basically, matters which he so far has 
had no real exposure to.  As far as quantifying descriptions go, 
the "Harry's POV" argument holds no weight with me.  I have always 
taken any information we receive in this manner as straight from JKR, 
without any colouring or exaggeration from Harry.

Kelley




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Mar 31 20:20:59 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:20:59 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's POV? 
References: <9a58rc+ngs0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ff01c0ba20$2f9222c0$513670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 15668

Naama questioned the Harry's POV angle:

> So, is there evidence for such colouring of the narrative? I couldn't
> think of anything that fits, but maybe other people here can come up
> with examples?

Perhaps we are wrong to consider the story as being told from Harry's point
of view if, by that, we mean his interpretation of events.  I'd say it was
overwhelmingly from his perspective, rather than his POV, because the story
revolves around his character.  In other words, for the most part we only
see and experience the action that Harry does, but we aren't necessarily
seeing things from his POV.  This leaves us free to interpret the words,
actions and motives of other characters from our own perspective to some
extent.

In recent debate about gender bias, references to Harry's POV were noted as
being an over-simplification.  I'd agree with that, but I'd reiterate that
with the story revolving around Harry we can only see things in his domain.
I'd previously made the point that we wouldn't see any interactions in the
Gryffindor girls dormitory, because Harry would never be in there.  On the
other hand, I'm disappointed that we've learnt so little about the
Gryffindor Quidditch team's three female Chasers.  Surely Harry has had more
conversation with them than in the Quidditch matches or pre-match briefing
sessions?  I find it very strange that a team of seven people who have
practiced and played as a unit for three years would not be more matey with
each other.

Several people have noted recently that that the narrative is third person
limited, so it's difficult to tell what is actually happening and what
appears to Harry be happening.  Take this sentence from PS:

"[Vernon] took a few deep breaths and then forced his face into a smile,
which looked quite painful."

We could conclude that Harry assumed Vernon was forcing his face into a
smile, since he would not be likely to smile at him naturally.  On the other
hand, the narrator may be describing  something that is specific to Vernon,
as only Vernon could *know* that he is forcing a smile.  Then it would be
strange to say it "looked quite painful," as that is clearly from Harry's
POV.  Confusing, eh?

As I understand it, the limited third person view is useful because it
allows the author to hide certain facts from the reader on the basis that
the focal character would be aware of them at that point in the story.  Of
course, there is no obligation to reveal facts in the broader third person,
but it is more interesting for us to be limited by Harry's knowledge and to
discover things as he discovers them.

Given that we are tied to Harry, I find him a little *too* dense when it
comes to discovering details.  For example, at the beginning of CoS he has
no idea why Hagrid was expelled from Hogwarts in his third year, although
this can't have been much of a secret, and - hey presto - it turns out to be
key to a later part of the story.    Even more amazing is his lack of
knowledge about his parents and relatives.  How difficult could it be for
him to find more details once he'd escaped Privet Drive?  If I were him, I'd
be pumping Dumbledore, Hagrid and Ma and Pa Weasley for every bit of
information possible about my parents and my grandparents and I'd demand to
know why I was stuck living with the Dursleys.  Forget Dumbledore's
twinkling old eyes and wise advice - I'd bang my fists on his well-polished
desk and tell the old wrinkler to spill the beans, pronto!!!  But, um, those
beans are in Book 7, aren't they? Oh yeah....

Harry's apparent lack of curiosity is maddening, but that's the point.  If
we could hear everyone else's POV the whole time, it would be akin to
watching Columbo trying to work out how a murder was committed when we'd
seen the whole thing over the opening credits.

Neil
________________________________________

Flying Ford Anglia
Mechanimagus Moderator

"Krum, his red robes shining with blood from his nose,
was rising gently into the air, his fist held high, a glint
of gold in his hand." ["The Quidditch World Cup", GoF]

Check out Very Frequently Asked Questions for everything
to do with this club:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/VFAQ.htm





From rina at love-productions.com  Sat Mar 31 20:22:10 2001
From: rina at love-productions.com (Rina Stewart)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:22:10 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's POV?
Message-ID: <008a01c0ba20$4477de00$f13eabac@shelley>

No: HPFGUIDX 15669

Kelley wrote:

<<As to Harry's POV, the only times this 
argument seems to have any real validity to me are in regards to 
matters of the private lives of the professors, whether McGonagall 
has a mentoring relationship to Hermione, what level of friendship 
Hermione and Ginny have, etc.  Basically, matters which he so far has 
had no real exposure to. >>

As far as the books go, it's third person limited. That means that we're not exactly in Harry's mind ("I went into the hut"), but we're not in anyone else's, either. We know Harry's thoughts, but not Ron's or Hemione's. For the most part, we only know what he knows. Remember at the end of PoA, when Harry thinks he saw his father doing the patronus? We thought so, too, until Harry learned that he had seen himself, which is when we learned it. For me, it's a logical step to assume that if we only know what he does, we're seeing it from his perspective, which is naturally colored by his own thoughts. With Cedric, we already knew what Cedric was like, from Harry's experiences. That coupled with the events right before with Cho is why we recognize that the later negative impressions are colored by jealousy rather than fact. For all we know, we're going to learn that a lot of his impressions have been colored by feelings, and be surprised by someone turning out to be a good guy or a bad guy.

Rina
********************************
"Let's practice what we preach, and with the acceptance that we expect from 
others, let's stop being so damn judgmental and crucifying everyone who 
doesn't fit in to our boxed-in perception of what is right."
--Gillian Anderson

"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is mystery. Today is a gift."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

Be an Angel at www.love-productions.com/gilliangels
Chase Rainbows at mrs.spooky.tripod.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sat Mar 31 20:28:55 2001
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:28:55 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's POV?  (correction)
References: <9a58rc+ngs0@eGroups.com> <00ff01c0ba20$2f9222c0$513670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <013a01c0ba21$359331e0$513670c2@c5s910j>

No: HPFGUIDX 15670

Neil wrote:

<<As I understand it, the limited third person view is useful because it
allows the author to hide certain facts from the reader on the basis that
the focal character would be aware of them at that point in the story.  >>

Responding to me, can I point out that I meant "would not be aware of them".
Otherwise, IMNSHO, I made some very interesting points.

Neil




From recla at magick.net  Sat Mar 31 20:45:04 2001
From: recla at magick.net (Dennis Recla)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 12:45:04 -0800
Subject: JK Reading from GOF
In-Reply-To: <008a01c0ba20$4477de00$f13eabac@shelley>
Message-ID: <NBBBLMIEAKMHNMICJHAHEEFJDEAA.recla@magick.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 15671


Was at the local book store, they have a video tape that came from
Scholastic, inc. of JK reading chapter 4 from GOF. Its about 15 minutes
long, and she does a very nice reading.  Check your book stores and see it
they have a copy of it.

Dennis




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sat Mar 31 21:08:42 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:08:42 -0000
Subject: Ghosts from violent deaths
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0103302315110.28296-100000@er6.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <9a5h0q+kcjb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15672

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at e...> wrote:
  
Poltergeists,
> like ghosts, seem place-bound; I think exorcism is the prescribed 
method
> for eliminating them, as they are very close to demons?  
> 
> --jen :)

According to paranormal folks, ghosts can attach themselves to any 
object (doesn't necessarily have to be a house). They generally treat 
ghosts as entities that have "lost their way". They really don't 
recommend banishing a ghost from a place. They recommend setting 
boundaries with the ghost. The generic ghost is different from 
poltergeists or truly "evil" entities.

:-)Milz




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Sat Mar 31 21:31:53 2001
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:31:53 -0000
Subject: Feeling his pain
In-Reply-To: <013901c0ba0c$3c13fa50$2271023e@shasta>
Message-ID: <9a5ic9+1151f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15673

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" <Aberforths_Goat at Y...> 
wrote:
> Milz wrote,
> 
> > Dumbledore said that his theory about Harry's scar pain was that
> > whenever Voldy was nearby or was feeling particularly murderous 
the
> > scar hurts. Would the same be true for Voldemort? If Harry were to
> > feel particularly "murderous" or any other intense emotion did
> > Voldemort feel that too? If so, was Voldemort using the scar as a
> > means of monitoring Harry? Also, if Harry feels pain when Voldy is
> > violent, could Voldy feel pain when Harry is even minimally
> > satisfied? Could this partially explain why Voldy remained weak 
for
> > all those years?.
> 
> Wow, Milz!!
> 
> That offers a *very* interesting explanation of the "ancient magic" 
that
> protects Harry from Voldy. What if Dumbledore's ancient magic 
consists in an
> amplification of the connection created by Harry's scar, creating a 
symmetry
> between Harry's and Volfy's strength and freedom. Thus, whenever 
Harry is
> held in bondage, the Dark Lord is also bound (at least in regard to 
Harry).
> Perhaps Dumbledore placed Harry with the Dursely's precisely because 
he knew
> they would mistreat Harry--and hence protect him from the big V.
> 
> I do see some potential problems with this hypothesis, but it does 
sound
> like the kind of thing Jo would cook up. Any thoughts, folks?
> 
> Oh--and incidentally: granting the above, I wonder what would happen 
to
> Voldy if Harry were brutally murdered ...
> 

Exactly. I think that Voldy didn't completely think through his "Kill 
Harry Potter" campaign in the four books. Harry's in pain when 
Quirrell with his Voldy-head transplant grabs him. Does Voldy feel 
that pain too? Because if he did, killing Harry might kil him. But now 
that Harry and Voldy are more or less separated, Harry might be able 
to kill Voldy without hurting himself (Dumbledore's fleeting look of 
triumph).

:-)Milz




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Sat Mar 31 21:45:47 2001
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire at mail.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 21:45:47 -0000
Subject: Harry's POV?  (correction)
In-Reply-To: <013a01c0ba21$359331e0$513670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <9a5j6b+8uil@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15674

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Neil wrote:

> Responding to me, can I point out that I meant "would not be aware 
of them".
> Otherwise, IMNSHO, I made some very interesting points.
> 
> Neil


*LOL* I thought you did too, Neil. As far as the narration of the 
books goes, they are of course in third person limited and part of 
the reason JKR chose to write them that way, I'd imagine, is that it 
allows her to keep the readers from being away of certain facts 
because Harry is not aware of those facts. It would be possible for 
her to do multiple third person limited views -- we could have a 
chapter from Ron's perspective, followed by one from Hermione's, 
followed by Harry's, and tell the story that way -- but she doesn't. 
We are, always and forever, in Harry's head and we see people as he 
sees them. This does not mean that in cases like his jealousy of 
Cedric we are not aware that this is jealousy and not the way Cedric 
actually is, partially because *Harry* is perfectly aware that this 
is jealousy and not the way Cedric actually is. He liked Cedric just 
fine up until that point and both we and he know that.

The third person limited is also useful in teaching us Muggles about 
the magical world gradually, since we learn as Harry learns. The only 
piece of information I can think of that we have had in the books 
that Harry didn't was the knowledge at the beginning of GoF that 
something funky was going on at the Riddle House, because that was on 
the only chapter of the book *not* told in third person limited. It 
was, IMHO, a framing device.

The fact that the books are in third person limited of course means 
that to some extent we are limited in our knowledge of other 
characters' motivations. I cannot see any basis for arguing otherwise.

Cassie




From ender_w at msn.com  Sat Mar 31 21:24:34 2001
From: ender_w at msn.com (ender_w)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 16:24:34 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's POV? 
References: <9a58rc+ngs0@eGroups.com> <00ff01c0ba20$2f9222c0$513670c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <001a01c0ba29$9f407140$590a1b3f@satellite>

No: HPFGUIDX 15675


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Neil Ward 
  To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 3:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Harry's POV? 


    >Even more amazing is his lack of
  knowledge about his parents and relatives.  How difficult >could it be for
  him to find more details once he'd escaped Privet Drive?  If >I were him, I'd
  be pumping Dumbledore, Hagrid and Ma and Pa Weasley for every >bit of
  information possible about my parents and my grandparents and >I'd demand to
  know why I was stuck living with the Dursleys.  Forget >Dumbledore's
  twinkling old eyes and wise advice - I'd bang my fists on his >well-polished
  desk and tell the old wrinkler to spill the beans, pronto!!!  >But, um, those beans are in Book 7, aren't they? Oh yeah


  I've been thinking a lot about Harry's seeming lack of interest in his parents and their background.  As someone who was adopted at birth (well, actually a month after), I, at first, thought it unrealistic for Harry to be so uncurious (is that a word?).  Ever since early childhood, I've fantasized about my birth parents and who they might be (my adoptive parents never hid the fact of our adoption from my brothers and me).  When I was small, I asked questions constantly, and my curiosity continues even now, but around the time I was Harry's age, I started to learn that birth parents were not something one discussed in casual conversation.  It is a very emotional subject for all parties involved.  Even now that I have made contact with my birth mother, I am very careful about what questions I ask her and what questions I ask about my father and the rest of my family.
      My point is that I imagine that Harry's parentage is a very emotional subject for him.  I would also surmise that any questions he may have had when he was young were met with anger or ridicule by the Dursleys.  He may have learned young that the subject of his parents was one he, himself, wanted to keep private, especially if Dudley teased him by saying things that my brothers and I heard from ill-mannered, Dudley-like, children.  He has met people who were close to James and Lily (Remus, Sirius, Dumbledore), but maybe he senses that discussing his parents, in detail, with them would be very emotional and even inappropriate.  He also has trust issues and, as asking about one's dead parents might expose one's emotions, he might be reluctant to have such an intimate conversation with any adult yet.
      Of course, it could all be just a literary device that Rowling is using to keep the important information out of our reach until book 7.

  ender
      


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar 31 21:19:44 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 15:19:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Feeling his pain
References: <9a2dfu+beco@eGroups.com> <013901c0ba0c$3c13fa50$2271023e@shasta>
Message-ID: <008601c0ba2f$3de019e0$8e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15676

Milz wrote,

> Dumbledore said that his theory about Harry's scar pain was that
> whenever Voldy was nearby or was feeling particularly murderous the
> scar hurts.

******************
This line bothered me when I read it ... I was going to ask about it then. I
must have gotten sidetracked ... so easily done in this group.

How does Dumbledore know about Harry's scar pain "when Voldemort is feeling
particularly murderous?"  Can anyone quote me the lines where it says that
Harry told him this?

Doreen
******************




From nera at rconnect.com  Sat Mar 31 22:08:38 2001
From: nera at rconnect.com (Doreen)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 16:08:38 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The snake Harry set free.....
References: <F52OwgZoKnD7zoJDpz10000624f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <008701c0ba2f$404d2240$8e14a3d1@doreen>

No: HPFGUIDX 15677




Here's an interesting thought - could Nagini be the snake that Harry
accidentally let loose?

-Crystal :@)
_______________

That thought crossed my mind, but I dont think they are the same kind of
snake, are they?

Wormtail "milked Nagini"... taking the poison from a poisonous snake's
fangs... and a boa is not poisonous.

Doreen
_______________





From msmacgoo at one.net.au  Sat Mar 31 10:10:33 2001
From: msmacgoo at one.net.au (Snuffles MacGoo)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 20:10:33 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: gender balence/strong women
Message-ID: <01C0BA84.E1A96B80.msmacgoo@one.net.au>

No: HPFGUIDX 15678


--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Snuffles MacGoo <msmacgoo at o...> wrote:
> ----------------------
> Susan: No one has answered the question about fantasies about adult
> women/men in fanfiction.......
> ----------------------


> I don't read fan fiction usually...I've read two or three?

> So therefore I was inquiring about whether there were romantic/erotic
> fan fics about McGonagall or any of the other adult women.

> Susan

Hmm, not that I know of but I'm not all that widely read. Maybe you could write 
some? I'd read it. <g>

Storm







From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 31 10:59:07 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Clayton)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 20:59:07 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
Message-ID: <F1166K8CACTz8RQyi0J00000e6a@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15745




>From: Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at er5.rutgers.edu>
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gender/what we may ask of a writer
>Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:46:01 -0500 (EST)
>
>On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 meboriqua at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately, we live in a world where the majority of high positions
> > ARE held by men.  It sucks and I hate it, but it is so.  Would as many
> > people have bought the whole idea if Hogwarts and MOM were run by
> > women?  Just like people are reluctant to vote for a woman for a high
> > ranking position, people tend to be more interested in men's sports,
> > in men as heros, in men with power, and women with looks.
>
>The question of Fudge or Dumbledore as a woman is an entirely different
>one, in a way, from the question of Harry as a girl.  While I think
>girl-Harry may indeed have reduced popularity (certainly initially) by
>casuing the publisher to label the series as 'girls' books' rather than
>'children's books', I don't think having a Cornelia Fudge nor an Alba
>Dumbledore would've been detrimental to the series' popularity nor in
>any way unbelievable. We already have Minerva MacGonagall as deputy
>headmistress, and I doubt that in 2001 anyone's head would've exploded
>at the notion that she was the actual headmistress instead.  And as for
>the MoM -- Britain, unlike the US, has elected a woman to serve as its
>chief executive.
>
>(Reminds me of that joke from around the time that Major succeeded
>Thatcher, about the little girl saying, "But he can't be prime
>minister; only girls can be prime minister.")
>
And remember, when Harry is in Dumbledores office, he notices there are 
portraits of former headmasters AND headmistresses. So obviously there have 
been female leaders of Hogwarts in the past. It just happens that there's a 
male now.

Liz
-----
'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry.
'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second cousin who's 
an accountant, but we never talk about him.'
-----

_________________________________________________________________________
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From nizbet_noni at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 31 10:56:11 2001
From: nizbet_noni at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Clayton)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 20:56:11 +1000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question about First Feast?
Message-ID: <F93e4nhrKtzcbLDiKBs000025a3@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15766

Crystal wrote:
> > When Harry looked over at Snape,
> > he felt his scar burn with pain for a moment. Why is this?
Tobey wrote:
>Because Quirrel was next to Snape?

That's the general consensus, that Quirrel was next to Snape, and had his 
back turned towards Harry, which means that Voldie's 'face' was facing 
Harry. Remember Dumbledore's theory that Harry's scar hurts when Voldie is 
(a) close or (b) feeling a particular burst of hatred towards him. (Sorry, I 
can't find the page ref atm). At that point in time, both (a) and (b) were 
probably happening.

Liz
-----
'Are all your family wizards?' asked Harry.
'Er - yes, I think so,' said Ron. 'I think Mum's got a second cousin who's 
an accountant, but we never talk about him.'
-----

_________________________________________________________________________
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From jellycrys at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 31 03:39:08 2001
From: jellycrys at hotmail.com (crystal white)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:39:08 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many students at Hogwarts?
Message-ID: <F39jtrSByh133tYwlib00000698@hotmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 15800


I, too, like the small school idea.  It fits in with the banquets and the 
classes - all of the Gryffindor 1st years in one class together would make 
sense.  Also, Hogwarts is supposed to be for the most promising witches and 
wizards.  A small school would be ideal.   But at the same time, why would 
JKR say there's about 1000 students?  Hmmmm.....

-Crystal :@)
48% obsessed BEFORE joining this!!!



>From: tobeybickle at aol.com
>Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: How many students at Hogwarts?
>Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:21:21 EST
>
>I like the smaller number theory.. 5 girls and 5 boys each year in each
>house. I think the biggest piece of evidence against this (The supposed 200
>Slytherin at the Match) Is probably just exaggeration to show how many 
>people
>it seemed like at the moment.. looking down on the mob of 70 people, plus
>teachers and fans, all covered in green robes, was probably intimidating.
>
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