Harry and Cedric (was Envy/Respect)

[Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 13208

Hi --

eccleston at clara.co.uk wrote:

> Shouldn't we remember that, despite JKR writing for a steadily
> evolving audience following her success, that these are childrens
> books? JKR is showing herself to be very sensitive to childrens
> issues in the UK e.g. one parent families. How would a child of, say
> 12, read this?

I must disagree that they are "childrens' books."  Pet peeve of mine
(laughs thinking about all the "old-timers" running to hide now -- "Oh,
no!  Another Penny rant.  What happened to her gestational carpal tunnel
affliction?").  Back to the rant: would there really be close to 1000
members of this group, HP for Grownups, if these were just childrens'
books that happen to be enjoyed by some parents or what have you?  JKR
herself also has said countless times that she did not write the HP
books with a target audience in mind.  She wrote the first one as
something she herself would enjoy reading (she was, obviously, an adult
at that time).  She's also said over & over since GoF that she does not
intend to "tone it down" for her younger readers.

My second point to the above is that we are an adult literary discussion
group, so we needn't worry about whether a 12 yr old child would
understand Jen's homo-erotic literary crit analysis of the Harry/Cedric
dynamic (or what said 12 yr old might think of that analysis).  This
group is for adults to discuss the books after all.  :--)

I enjoyed Jen's analysis.  My lit crit days are in such the distant past
that I don't really feel qualified to chime in with too much original
thought.  I hadn't really thought about that angle before, and it's
interesting.  Like Amanda, I think it's a mark of really great
literature when different interpretations can be brought to bear.  I'd
also second Amanda's request for a nice definition of homo-erotic, just
for discussion purposes.  :--)

I do think Harry was relieved in some measure when Cho turned him down
for the Ball.  And, as our dear Catlady has pointed out numerous times,
Harry really done much more than fantasize about winning Cho's
admiration.  At least he hasn't shared with the readers any more
explicit fantasies that he might have had with regard to Cho
(specifically, he hasn't even envisioned what it might be like to kiss
her).  I think it's interesting that JKR had really played up the whole
"they will be adolescents in Book 4" thing, but Hermione is the only one
of the Trio who really had any sort of true romantic relationship in
GoF.  Harry & Ron were both still fairly mired in pre-adolescence IMO.

Gwen said:


> It's also ironic that Cedric's death means Harry will probably never get
> Cho. Regardless of how "in love" or "not in love" she was with Cedric (and
> personally I think not so much), her feelings toward him will always remain
> unresolved. She will not be able to distinguish how she felt before he died
> from how she felt when he did not come back, and Harry did. IMO, they will
> probably become friends, and maybe down the line lovers, but nothing will
> happen on that front for a while.
>
I'm wondering how you square your first sentence with your last point.
I'm in the camp that believes that there's too much tragedy for any
Harry/Cho romance now, so I agree with your first point.  But, it seems
unlikely to me that they would be lovers down the road ... the "too much
tragedy" thing will always be there.  I do think they might become
friends though.

Jen said:

> But, I would argue, it's not so simple as that.  Harry is certainly
> jealous that Cedric, and not he, is going with Cho.  I wouldn't deny
> that.  However, (love) triangles are funny structures, because by their
> nature they set up a connection between the two rivals, mediated through
> the presence of the beloved.  And since Harry repeatedly casts Cedric in
> the role of desired object, I get a distinct sense from the text that
> Harry's desire is moving (though not consciously) towards both.  Nor
> would I say that Harry is necessarily jealous of Cho.  I see no
> evidence of that in the text; mostly he's emotionally uninvested in her
> following her refusal.  However, his emotional reactions to Cedric
> continue.  But I'm definitely not positing any sort of situation where
> his 'real feelings' are the inverse of what he believes he is feeling
> (reaction-formation).
>
Jen I'd love to hear your thoughts on a possible love triangle among the
Trio (Harry, Ron & Hermione that is).  I guess there are various ways
that triangle might work, eh?  In any case, I'd welcome your analysis.

> You know, it often seems in lit crit that exactly the opposite of
> Occam's razor applies: the more convoluted a reading, the more
> persuasive the argument for it. *g*
>
Since many of the arguments of the H/H crowd (myself included) are
accused of being "convoluted," maybe we are on more solid ground then.
<vbg>

Penny




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