SHIP: Long Post Re: R/H Yule Ball and JKR

[firoza10 at yahoo.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 13766

Hello all!

I have been induced to delurk to add my voice once more for my Good 
Ship R/H, although my fellowshipmates B, Moey and Captain Kathy have 
been doing very well so far :-) I have been reading the shipper 
debates avidly and so I have a lot to say, so beware, long post 
coming up :-)!!

I agree and support everything that B, Moey and Captain Kathy have 
said in regards to R/H and the Yule Ball. Ron's remarks were not 
personal but Hermione was aware that the sentiments behind the words 
were. 

Many of the H/H fans see Ron is an open book so it's obvious that he 
likes Hermione, but Hermione is not so easy to read therfore doesn't 
like Ron back. We R/H fans agree that Hermione is not so easy to read 
but the signs she likes Ron back are there, and have been covered in 
detail before so I will not reiterate them now. Well, if Hermione is 
not so easy to decipher, then how do you H/H fans deduce she likes 
Harry instead? Aaahhh, subtext right <vbg>.

I only discovered this wonderful group after Christmas, so I am still 
waiting to hear all about this 'subtext' that emphatically shows that 
Hermione likes Harry not Ron. Also, for FITD, if Ron likes Hermione, 
Hermione likes Harry, and Harry likes Cho/no one/someone outside the 
Trio (if I am correct and that is FITD) then how does that support 
H/H? I always thought that it took two people to make a relationship 
<g> so if Harry doesn't like Hermione back romantically how does FITD 
support H/H? Aaaah, subtext right ;-) I think that H/H fans who 
believe in FITD are saying then is that Harry may not like Hermione 
on the surface, but he loves her in subtext, so eventually he will 
like her back? Seems pretty farfetched to me, since all the books are 
from Harry's POV. As many people have already mentioned, if Harry 
even had an inkling of a romantic notion towards Hermione 
subtextually or otherwise we would have known about it by now and as 
for the future, well please read on <bg>. 

The definition of subtext, implicit and metaphor taken straight from 
Merriam Webster dictionary online is:

Main Entry: sub·text
Pronunciation: 's&b-"tekst
Function: noun
Date: 1950
: the implicit or metaphorical meaning (as of a literary text)
- sub·tex·tu·al /"s&b-'teks-ch&-w&l, -ch&l/ adjective 

Main Entry: im·plic·it
Pronunciation: im-'pli-s&t
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin implicitus, past participle of implicare
Date: 1599
1 a : capable of being understood from something else though 
unexpressed : IMPLIED <an implicit assumption>.

Main Entry: met·a·phor
Pronunciation: 'me-t&-"for also -f&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French metaphore, from 
Latin metaphora, from Greek, from metapherein to transfer, from meta- 
+ pherein to bear -- more at BEAR
Date: 1533
1 : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting 
one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a 
likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly : 
figurative language -- compare SIMILE
2 : an object, activity, or idea treated as a metaphor : SYMBOL 2
- met·a·phor·ic /"me-t&-'for-ik, -'fär-/ or met·a·phor·i·cal /-i-k&l/ 
adjective
- met·a·phor·i·cal·ly /-i-k(&-)lE/ adverb 

So, if 'subtext' means 'implied' or 'figurative language', where in 
Books I to IV is it implied or figuratively written that Hermione 
likes Harry and Harry likes Hermione romantically (we all agree that 
H and H like each other as friends ;-))? 

Book 1: before H and H drink Snapes potion, 'Hermione's lip trembled 
and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him'. One 
could argue that the 'subtext' for this little demonstration is that 
Hermione likes Harry therfore she throws her arms around him. But of 
course not, H/H fans hastily say! They are only eleven years old! So, 
this is not a good example of subtext <g>. 

So how about the infamous Kiss at the end of Book IV, 'she did 
something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek'. 
H/H fans have pointed out the JKR has stressed this kiss by adding 
the line 'she did something she had never done before'. Well, 
according to the definition of subtext I found, that is not implied, 
that is stated outright and we faithful Harry Potter fans know that 
she has never kissed Harry on the cheek before. So, what is the 
subtext in The Kiss? Aaaahhh, her overwhelming love for Harry 
carefully hidden, only implied, burst forth due to the anxiety and 
the dire circumstances he faces so that Hermione couldn't help 
herself, she KISSED him! I read some posts earlier were I believe H/H 
fans polled teenagers to get their take on the KISS and I also 
believe that the results of THAT poll were unanimous that Hermione 
and Harry liked each other, or at least that Hermione like Harry. 
Well, I haven't been a teenager for quite some time (I am thirty and 
proud of it ;-)) but I do remember vividly what it felt like to be 
fourteen and IMO I would never kiss the boy I liked on the cheek 
especially if I wasn't sure if he returned my feelings (I believe we 
all, H/H fans included, agree that Harry doesn't like Hermione 
romantically, with an added 'yet' for the benefit of H/H fans <g>). 
So, once again the kiss can be interpreted in many ways just as all 
things shippy can, based on everyones recollections of being a teen :)

The point that I am trying to make of all my rambles is that 
EVERYTHING that points to a particular ship can be interpreted 
differently by the other ship based on personal experience. What we 
R/H fans say is that what we interpret has been bourne out by JKR 
herself <vbg>. 

I believe it was Penny that mentioned that the 'there's something 
going on between Ron and Hermione' comment of JKR's can be 
interpreted as Ron liking Hermione, but Hermione not returning the 
feelings. Moey pointed that the only thing one can interpret 
differently in this statement is the 'something', but the 'between' 
most definitely means:

Main Entry: 1be·tween
Pronunciation: bi-'twEn
Function: preposition
Etymology: Middle English betwene, preposition & adverb, from Old 
English betwEonum, from be- + -twEonum (dative plural) (akin to 
Gothic tweihnai two each); akin to Old English twA two
Date: before 12th century
1 a : by the common action of : jointly engaging <shared the work 
between the two of them> <talks between the three -- Time> b : in 
common to : shared by <divided between his four grandchildren>

This definition and common sense tells us that between means 'jointly 
engaging' and 'shared by'. Since the two people in JKR's statement 
are Hermione and Ron (Harry is NOT mentioned, subtext or no subtext 
<vbg>) they are 'jointly engaging' and 'sharing' in the 'something 
going'. Now as an expert in subtext, I am sure that Penny agrees that 
the subtext of 'something going on' is the implication that Hermione 
and Ron have romantic feelings. Please do not launch forth an all out 
attack on me for clarifying JKR's statement H/H fans, because all I 
am pointing out is that there really is no other way to 
interpret 'between' if the 'between' being referred to is the one in 
the English language <g>! So if H/H fans can follow the logic of my 
ramble so far, they will have to agree that JKR is saying that 
Hermione DOES have romantic feelings (if we agree that 
the 'something' being referred to here is 'romantic feelings' <g>) 
for Ron, but Ron, typical boy, is clueless.

Penny wrote:
Well, she made alot of pre-GoF statements that had everyone utterly &
completely convinced that Harry & Cho would date each other in GoF.
She's quite good IMO at making public statements that appear to be 
clear
but are, in reality, rather ambiguous.  I interpret what she said as
being clear only that Ron doesn't know what's going on yet.  There's
more than one spin to be put on virtually everything JKR says -- 
that's
all I'm saying.  :--)

Well if the pre-GoF statements that Penny is referring to are the 
ones were JKR stated that the Trio would 'fall in love with the wrong 
people' or that they 'would date the wrong person' then that has been 
bourne out in GoF since none of us seriously believe that Hermione is 
going to actually fall in love with Krum, Ron with Padma/Fleur or 
Harry with Parvati/Cho, the obvious 'wrong people' in GoF. I don't 
remember any chat/interview, other than the one mentioned above, 
where JKR stated or implied that Harry would date Cho, so if you have 
a link or the name of this article where this was said, I would 
really love to read it please ;-) 

JKR may be 'ambiguous' about things such as whether any of the Trio 
will die or who will actually die, but most everything else that I 
remember she has said in the chats and interviews I have read has 
been bourne out in the books so far. JKR said that the hormones would 
start to kick in in GoF, and they have (though not to the degree we 
shippers hoped for <vbg>), there would deaths in the later books, 
starting in Book IV and there have been. She has been straight 
forward about H/H so far as well. In an earlier Scholastic interview 
(Feb. 3, 2000):
http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm 

Q: Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he 
going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley?  
JKR: In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not 
Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time 
for him to change his mind. ;-)  

Now, in Book IV, it has been bourne out that Harry does decide he 
likes a girl, and that girl everyone knows is Cho Chang. JKR also 
says that he is only fourteen, so there's plenty of time for him to 
change his mind, implying that he will fall out of love with Cho and 
fall in love with either Hermione or Ginny, the only two girls 
mentioned in the question. 

In the Barnes and Noble chat, she says that there is 'something going 
on between Ron and Hermione' meaning that Hermione DOES return Ron's 
feelings (if you agree that the word 'between' means 'jointly 
engaging in' <vbg>). In an audio interview prior to the release of 
GoF, if you go to the last question, JKR says:

"Oh, I like this one. 'Do Harry and Hermione have a date?' No. Harry 
and Hermione are very platonic. But I won't speak for anyone else, 
nudge nudge wink wink."

You can hear this interview at:

http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/exrad/991020.jkrowling.ram

Now, this inteview was held a short time before GoF, and you have to 
agree that JKR was straight forward about Harry and Hermione not 
having a date in GoF <vbg>. By saying that Harry and Hermione are 
very platonic she does not rule out the possibility of of there 
always being platonic, but that would be like putting words in her 
mouth, since the only thing open to interpretation is the "but I 
won't speak for anyone else, nudge nudge wink wink". That I take to 
mean that the 'anyone else' she refers to is Ron and that is again 
bourne out by his reactions in GoF (I believe the common consensus is 
that Ron DOES like Hermione) and her 'something going on between' 
comment later on. The 'anyone else' could refer to Krum, but in all 
honesty it doesn't seem likely she would refer to a character that we 
haven't met yet, since this interview occured before GoF. These are 
the only common sense interpretations of this statement <g>.

Going back to the Feb. 3, 2000 chat, since it is apparent that there 
is 'something going on between' Ron AND Hermione as of Book IV, and 
Harry and Hermione are very platonic as of Book IV, common sense 
indicates that the only one left is Ginny (since Cedric's death rules 
out Cho, and JKR has said that Ginny will play more of a role in Book 
V <g>). That is unless anyone thinks that Hermione can be in love 
with TWO people at the same time or that JKR, the creator of all 
things HP who made these statements, is shall we say, less than 
truthful <g>? These statements IMO can only be open to only so much 
interpretation no matter how one might wish it otherwise (but of 
course, I am sure H/H fans will have no difficulty interpreting these 
differently *smile*). Not ALL words in the English language can be 
interpreted differently. Some words such as 'between' and 'platonic' 
really have only one meaning <vbg>.

So, regarding RELATIONSHIPS, JKR has been pretty straight forward and 
hasn't really said anything that has not been bourne out in the books 
so far, no matter how you interpret it (again there are only so many 
ways one can interpret certain words such as 'platonic' or 'between' 
<vbg>). R/H is the way JKR is headed IMO, and since none of us REALLY 
believe that the canon HP is a soap opera (as much as we enjoy HP 
fanfics of this genre ;-)), it serves no purpose for JKR to build up 
R/H and then switch to H/H post-Hogwarts, as some H/H fans believe 
will happen. Teenagers in real life may not form attachments as 
teenagers that last into adulthood, but HP is NOT the real world, so 
R/H lasting into adulthood is a real possibility <g>. But despair not 
H/H fans, there are always fanfics :-)! 

Now, having said all this, I know that I have in no way swayed the 
truly dedicated H/H fan who sees subtexts in HP <g>, and my ramble is 
NOT meant to sway anyone, it is only meant to (hopefully) clarify why 
we R/H fans feel that R/H is the way the books will go EVENTUALLY. HP 
is not a romance so none of us expect a declaration of love between 
R/H or H/G any time soon (perhaps only a little paragraph in a 
summary JKR may write at the end of Book VII, or just hints are good 
enough for us, despite the lovely fanfics archived on Sugar Quill 
Island <vbg>). Nor do we think that R/H or H/G when they eventually 
DO get together will break up and not last. That is not in keeping 
with the tone of the HP books, however 'unrealistic' that may be and 
despite all the fanfics out there <vbg>.

I am sure only the truly dedicated shipper will even attempt to read 
this or have gotten this far ;-). Now I will go back into lurkdom and 
good ol' Sugar Quill Island, were the breeze blows only to further 
advance the Good Ship R/H with the SS H/G alongside. 

P. S. please H/H fans, don't take my words out of context, they are 
just my responses to the ongoing debate and meant to be taken in a 
light hearted fashion <g>. I feel I have said all I can and have 
spent WAY too much time on this post, so any further communications I 
will leave to my capable shipmates <vbg>. Real life calls!

Disclaimer: Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, these are 
just mine :--)

Bouncer Firoza of the Good Ship R/H :-)