SHIP: R/He compared to D/He

[naama_gat at hotmail.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 13898

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin at s...> 
wrote:
> Hi --
> 
> naama_gat at h... wrote:
> 
> > As I understatnd it, you're maintaining that Hermione's feelings 
are a
> > mystery (that is, we don't know how she's feeling towards Ron, or
> > Harry). At the same time you claim that if Hermione ends up with 
Ron,
> > JKR will have somehow disappointed some of her loyal fans, and, 
again
> > if I understand correctly, the disappointment would be because 
that
> > romance is too expected? How can it be expected if, according to 
your
> > point of view, Hermione's feelings for Ron are unknown? You say 
that
> > an interesting plot should not be obvious. Is R/H obvious then? 
And
> > doesn't this admission seriously undermine the H/H position which 
does
> > claim to
> > see MORE textual evidence to Hermione liking Harry than to 
Hermione
> > liking Ron?
> 
> I think (Ebony can correct me if I'm wrong) that Ebony is saying if
> Hermione's feelings are not ambiguous & conflicted and in fact are 
for
> Ron, that build-up of ambiguity & conflict will have been 
unwarranted
> and "unfair."  If she was going to end up R/H *without any 
conflict,
> soul-searching or problems*, then why cloak Hermione's feelings at 
all?
> Why not make it as obvious that Hermione likes Ron (and leave off 
with
> anything that could possibly be interpreted as Herm liking Harry)? 
 If
> she put in subtext that could support Hermione liking Harry when 
she
> never really intended to act on that or make anything of it *at 
all,*
> then it's just disingenous.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Ebony agrees with me that JKR is in fact 
setting up
> a conflict within the Threesome: FITD.  If she is not and she's 
going to
> open up Book 5 with Hermione declaring her love for Ron, then all 
the He
> likes Ha subtext in the previous 4 books becomes problematic.  JKR 
will
> have essentially been dishonest with some segment of her readers if 
she
> doesn't set up some sort of conflict.  It can still *end up* being 
R/H
> and not be a problem.  But, if it just segues right into R/H with 
no
> conflict on Hermione's part, then JKR will (IMO) have been guilty 
of
> unnecessarily raising the stakes so to speak.

Okay. I see your position more clearly now. But we're back to square 
one, aren't we? Its back to Ha/Her textual (/subtextual) evidence, 
and that's something I just can't see. As far as my impressions go, 
it just aint there. 
When I have more time, I'm planning on going over Ebony's list of 
Ha/Her textual evidence and mull over the issue.

> 
> > Ebony: OMG!  I haven't laughed so hard while reading a post in 
AGES!
> > You see, Cassie's expressing the confusion of every H/Her I've 
ever
> > > spoken to.  I know I think the *same thing* whenever the ship 
debate
> >
> > > rolls around.  I identify strongly with Hermione, I put myself 
in
> > her
> > > shoes... and the "I glare at him because I like him" argument 
is
> > > unconvincing to me.  The first thing I think to myself is, 
"well,
> > > Hermione glares at Draco as well, doesn't she?  So following 
your
> > > rhetoric, this means that she likes Ron, and Draco, and 
everyone
> > > who "gets under her skin"."
> >
> > Oh, but thats not fair! I claim a foul <g>. You know its not 
fair.
> > Draco is Hermione's enemy and her glares at him do not call for 
any
> > special attention. But Ron? He is one of her best friends, she
> > obviously cares about him very much (as a friend), and it is in 
*this*
> > context that the antagonism he so easily awakens in her seems
> > indicative of underlying feelings Hermione has for him.
> 
> How is that a "foul"?  There are plenty of romantic comedies where 
the
> two eventual romantic partners *hate* each other (are enemies) 
prior to
> falling madly in love.  If you subscribe to the R/H theory on the
> grounds that sparks = passion (in the fine tradition of romantic
> comedies), it hardly seems unfair that you consider the D/He 
possibility
> on the same grounds.  That is decidedly *not* unfair at all.  It's 
a
> very appropriate and logical conclusion.

<ahem> Draco and Hermione seem to you like the typical bickering 
romantic comedy couple?! I'm sorry, but I haven't seen many romantic 
comedies where the couple are a Ku-Klux-Klan man and a black woman! 
Which is essentialy what a Draco-Hermione romance would be. That kind 
of stuff does not easily lend itself either to comedy or to romance 
(well, maybe very heavy tragedy). Draco and Hermione are *real* 
enemies in a good vs. evil fight. What they have between them is real 
bad blood, not "sparks". 
Again, please think of the context of what's happening between the 
characters - the sparks between Hermione and Ron happen in the 
context of friendship; the sparks between Hermione and Draco happen 
in the context of deadly serious hatred (with life and death 
implications - he wants her dead because she's a mudblood, 
remember?).
Regarding Ron and Hermione I'll rephrase my point: What do we 
actually *know* for certain about Hermione's feelings for Ron? Well, 
we know he's one of Hermione's two best friends; we know she likes 
him and cares for him a lot. With this in the background the question 
arises - why then are there so much "sparking" going on between them? 
A fairly reasonable answer is that she has unacknowledged feelings 
for him which make her more sensitive and  vulnerable to him, and 
therefore more easily angered by him. It's the sparks-within- 
friendship that arouses our (R/H-ers) "worse suspicions", not sparks 
as such, see? <g>

> Ebony: > On the other hand, who else has Hermione shown clear 
evidence
> > of > being somewhat attracted to in canon?  She *was* attracted 
to
> > > Lockheart (twelve year old girl's crush on a teacher--even Ron
> > admits
> > > to it)--how did she react while she was around him?  She may 
not
> > have
> > > been swept off her feet by Krum, but she liked him enough to go 
to
> > > the Yule Ball with him--did she glare at him all the time, too? 
 Or
> > > initially?
> >
> > 'Like' is not the same as 'attract'. It is quite obvious (to me) 
that
> > she is not *at all* attracted to Krum. The "beetle in your hair 
scene"
> > makes that abundantly clear, I believe.
> 
> Ah, yes.  The scene where she couldn't stop talking to Harry, 
cheering
> for Harry.  That one?  <g>
> 

Ouch.  
But I'm not going there, Penny. I know that you know that I know that 
you don't really think that it's conclusive Hermione-likes-Harry 
evidence <g> umm.. actually <vbg>

BTW, I must say whenever I read that scene I really feel sorry for 
Krum. He has just carried her safely to the shore, and what's more he 
knows that everybody now knows that he is in love with her - and she 
just ignores him. Very humiliating. 

Naama