Harry the martyr/Harry the killer

[naama_gat at hotmail.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 14056

--- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Kimberly" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at y..., "Amy Z" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Really interesting question, Kimberly!  
> > 
> > I also get a little queasy at the thought of Harry killing 
> > Voldemort--but I'm also intrigued at the possibility of seeing 
> Harry 
> > deal with being a killer.  I think his refusal to kill Pettigrew 
> (and 
> > Sirius, for that matter) shows that he wouldn't kill anyone 
except 
> > with extreme reluctance and if given no alternative that he could 
> see. 
> >  He would suffer a lot if he killed even Voldemort, I think, and 
in 
> my 
> > perverse way, I'd like to see that suffering.
> > 
> > I get queasy in a different way at the thought of JKR killing 
> > Voldemort in a way that releases everyone from guilt.  
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > All of which is to say that if it is unpleasant to think of 
> Voldemort 
> > getting his just desserts, which I think it is, then I want JKR 
to 
> > make us deal with it, and not sugar-coat it by having him die in 
> some 
> > more palatable way.  I would be disappointed by a scenario in 
which 
> > he's standing on the Astronomy tower when it crumbles to dust 
from 
> > his own curses, carrying his screaming form with it, yada yada-- 
a 
> way 
> > to give us all the thrill of seeing him die without anyone we 
care 
> > about having to soil his/her hands.  To me this poses real moral 
> > implications for the readership: as if we really have executed 
> someone 
> > without acknowledging the weight of that responsibility.
> > 
> 
> Drat Amy!
> 
> What are you thinking, being so sensible?  No fair!
> 
> Of course, you're right.  I suppose I wouldn't want to see a 
scenario 
> where Voldemort inadvertently splats himself - saving the day and 
> releasing everyone from responsibility, or has an emotional 
> breakthrough and forms a wizard chapter of Evil Overlords 
Anonymous, 
> complete with amends letters to nearly every family in England.
> 
> I guess part of my problem is my own inner conflict with the idea 
of 
> capital punishment, which, in the case of your average heinous 
> murderer who might somehow be redeemable, sort of removes any 
> possibility for repentance/redemption.  I am not a vocal opponent 
of 
> capital punishment, as I admittedly don't fully grasp all of the 
> issues involved, but I find the idea terribly upsetting, from a lot 
> of angles, as even with someone like Voldemort, I don't want to be 
> responsible for deciding if that person's life still has value - if 
> they are redeemable or not.
> 
> Then, when you take that a step further, and instead of capital 
> punishment, the responsiblity for which at least can be passed off 
on 
> the governmental body in charge, you have an individual...
> I have to admit, in all honesty, that given the choice, I'd far 
> rather die to protect others than kill to do so, and I have serious 
> doubts as to whether, if the situation ever presented itself, I'd 
be 
> capable of killing even someone like Voldemort.  
> 
> So, all that said, when I think of Harry, who is still a child, and 
> has already been subjected to entirely too much, who lives daily 
with 
> the fact that his mother would be alive if she hadn't chosen to die 
> in order to protect him, who has seen Cedric die too, simply for 
> standing too close to him...  I just imagine that he must already 
> feel like he's responsible for a few deaths.  For him to have to 
> *choose* to kill someone, even the one who really *is* responsible 
> for all those deaths... it's just too much to ask of one kid.
> 
> I just keep coming back to the following:
> 
> -Harry saved Peter, saying he doesn't reckon his father would want 
> Remus and Sirius to become killers because of the little rat.
> 
> -Sirius (maybe?) and Dumbledore indicated that it was wrong for the 
> MoM to allow the auror's to use the unforgiveable curses on dark 
> wizards, and that evil for the greater good is still evil (or at 
> least that's my interpretation).
> 
> In light of the above, I'm hoping that there's some secret option 
D, 
> where nobody has to kill him, and they can somehow squibify him or 
> something, so that he is no longer a threat.  
> 

I have several comments on this really interesting subject (thanks, 
Kimberly!).

I think there is an option D that ties in very nicely, IMO, with a 
lot of what happened so far and with fantasy literature logic in 
general. It is that Voldemort will die by his own hand. Not in the 
sense of suicide, I hasten to add, but that his evil actions will 
rebound back on him, like the first time he was vanquished by his own 
AK curse. It's poetic justice (.. as well as plain old justice) and 
it also seems necessary to me, because it has been said that 
Voldemort, not being truly human (or alive?), cannot be killed. So it 
makes sense that only his own unique powers can kill him. 

As to Amy's reluctance to have Voldemort death sugar coated, I 
generally agree with this sentiment. Killing any human being should 
be presented as a real moral dilemma. It's just that I really don't 
see how JKR can make any moral dilemma concerning Voldemort's death 
seem credible, or interesting. He is evil personified. Its true that 
he used to be human and that we can find it in our hearts to be sorry 
for the child Tom Marvolo Riddle, but what he is now is really a 
monster. He is a fantasy figure, so, in contra distinction to real 
life serial killers, he can be made to be inhuman and completely 
evil. I think that if and when he dies, the reader will feel nothing 
but enormous relief.


Rita said:
"I think, unless Snape had a LOT of time to think about what he was
doing, he would not be thinking of that silly debt to Harry's father,
but rather of his duty to serve the Light, fight the Dark, and make
Dumbledore proud of him, and he would not be thinking of making Harry
feel guilty, but rather that death would release him from his own 
burden of guilt. And horrible memories. And hated job."

And I had to quote this, because I so so so agree! I agree so much it 
hurts (oh, but it hurts good!). Thank you, lady of Cat.



Naama