[HPforGrownups] Re: Gender balance/strong women

[A. Green]

No: HPFGUIDX 14953

The e-boogeyman's been eating my messages.  I'm trying to send again - hope 
the formatting didn't come out too strange and all the separations are in 
the right place (didn't save a copy to my sent file cuz it was coming right 
back, ugh.)

Susan wrote:
<snip>>     But I must sugges(t that the books are male-identified. Hermione 
is the exception. Hermione is not like the other girls in the HP books. She 
doesn't giggle, run in packs, or do a lot of the other traditionally girl 
behavior.


I'd have to say - of course she doesn't.  Then again, she does (remember 
Lockhart?) - the thing is, "Harry" actually saw her giggling over Lockhart, 
and he commented on it.  All "Harry" sees are girls who giggle - Hermione 
wasn't "really" a girl until GoF.  He never really paid attention to girls 
until he saw Cho in PoA, so of course he only noticed the ones walking in 
the halls and talking when they were giggling and in packs.  I think now 
that he's older we'll find out more about "individual" girls - because he'll 
be paying more attention to them and finding out more about them.

<snip>> By the way, being  male-identified does not mean that one is "less 
of a woman" or "not female". It doesn't mean weak.  It means that when you 
look at a movie you identify with the men (usually because they are the ones 
doing the brave resourceful things). <snip> It means that you don't see 
other women as role models, allies, friends, mentors..... <snip>

I don't consider myself (or Hermione) male-identified.  I did, in fact,
spend many a lunch hour watching the packs of girls giggle, talk about
make-up, talk about hair, talk about boys ... that's what most girls that 
age do.  JKR can't change that and still have a story that rings "true" -- 
it would leave the reader with the impression that the way she is is what, 
wrong?  What would we be telling all the girls who do giggle (and identify 
with Pavarti) and make fun of girls like Hermione (and go through normal 
human emotional growth/dysfunction) if we wrote them out of the story or 
gave them noone to identify with?

<snip>>Just as many strong, intelligent women, she survives/flourishes by 
hanging out with men and bonding with men.<snip>


I never spent much time hanging out with those giggling girls either.  Not 
because I identified myself with the boys I hung around with, but because 
they didn't care if I was wearing makeup or the latest hairstyle or where I 
bought my clothes.  I think it's the same with Hermione.

<snip> >But there are no men in the HP books who are defined merely as 
fathers/partners. There are no men who work inside the home, but not outside 
the home.


How many wizarding families (or Muggle families) have we even met?  Harry 
only knows about his own and his friends' families - we have no way of 
knowing weather Dean Thomas or the Patils, for example, are raised by single 
or stay-at-home Dads.

<snip>> We know a bunch about James and his friends, but almost nothing 
about Lily.


I won't go into my theory on that one again except to say that maybe you 
can't go into details about Lily without giving away essential secrets. heh

 >>    Then, we have the four houses. We know the most about Gryffindor, 
then Slytherin.   Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw are the houses we know less 
about.


I go with the theory that this is Harry's world.  He's in Gryffindor. Most 
of the people who give him problems are in Slytherin.  He's got classes with 
Slytherins (two, I think, Potions and Creatures) and only one class with 
Hufflepuffs (Sprout).  We know so much about Salazar because of his "Heir". 
Do we know any more about the founder of Gryffindor than we do about 
Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw?

<snip>>I myself was furious at her for not standing up to Cornelius Fudge 
and>letting the Dementor give the kiss to BC, Jr.
<snip>
She's a schoolteacher and he's a government official.  Besides stating her 
disagreement, what else could she do?

<snip> But I'm afraid that in the books she is not that strong a character, 
certainly not if you contrast her with Sirius or Lupin or Crouch.
<snip>
Sirius?  Has shown that he can turn into an animal - so can she.  He kept 
his mind in Azkaban.  He risked himself to go back to Hogwarts to see about 
Harry (GoF). Are those strengths?  Instead of sending Crookshanks with a 
message to Dumbledore (sensible considering that Dumbledore probably could 
have forced Peter to transform and had easier access to Ron), he has 
Crookshanks steal the passwords so he can break in and commit murder.
(Before the tomatoes come flying, I love Sirius - I just see his weaknesses 
for what they are...and realize they develop the story better than 
"sensible" might have. :)

Lupin?  He doubted the innocence of a good friend.  Failed to alert
Dumbledore of a possible threat (both that Sirius was animagi and that he 
had a way in).  He runs away instead of facing adversity. What strength did 
he display? (Again, I have to see my future husband with clearer eyes than I 
saw my ex. lol)

Crouch? Hmmm. More than I want to say - don't see that he displayed any
strength at all.
<snip>


>>     Ginny Weasley has potential. But Ginny is mostly seen as the girl who 
>>has the crush on Harry.

<snip>

Still how Harry sees her.  She might actually like Neville. :)

<snip>>The issue of "gender balance" is about which gender gets the most
"space", time, attention, focus.
<snip>

If the story were written from a girls point of view, I'd expect to see more 
female relationships.  Boys don't care about female bonding (meaning Harry 
wouldn't notice).



 >>    Once again, I brace myself for the deluge....
     Susan


I understand where you're coming from.  My perspective is, though, that just 
like I didn't identify with the gigglers, I didn't identify with the "males" 
in a story either.  If I put myself into a story, I created/edited the role 
to suit me.  I guess the heart of the issue for me is that I don't care 
that/if most of the memorable characters in HP are male.  They are "real" 
enough that I can care about what happens to them and try to guess what they 
are going to do/think and it's a good story (just enough of everything to 
keep me interested without overkill anywhere - knockknockknock).  That's all 
that really matters to me.  As long as there are books that do have strong 
female characters, it doesn't bother me that all books don't have strong 
female characters.

a.
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