Gender balance/strong women

[Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer]

No: HPFGUIDX 15078

Hi --

Schlobin at aol.com wrote:

> Sure, and I am very fond of you and Neil and Penny...and Penny for
> gosh sakes don't take this wrong, but you're all beginning to sound
> very lame about how the only argument is to take it from Harry's
> adolescent boy point of view...
>
I've never said the *only* argument is to look at Harry's POV, Susan.
I've merely pointed out that it is *a* valid argument, and it's a strong
argument at that.  And, it's an argument that you seem willing to ignore
completely.

> Rina said: > No. Why would I do that? All I was saying is that both men and
> women in this series are defined by their relationship to men. For
> every women defined by a man, there's a man defined by a man.
>
> Susan responded: Well, we have a profound disagreement. In my opinion, women should be
> valued as women, not in relationship to men.
>
Rina made a point specific to the HP series.  Susan -- your response it
to make it a generalization, which misses Rina's point entirely.  Look
at the quoted text above.  She says *in this series.*  I doubt that Rina
would disagree with your statement at all.  But, your statement doesn't
address *her* argument.  I agree with Rina: you can argue effectively
that in the HP series there are as many men defined by other men as
there are women defined by men.


> I am troubled by the threads that dismiss Ginny Weasley as a "victim".
> Unfortunately, women and girls are victims of child sexual abuse,
> adult sexual abuse, adult battering, largely by men through no fault
> of their own.
>
I have noted that Ginny is a victim.  *However*, my argument is not that
she is in general a victim.  Her main role in CoS, however, is as a
victim (IMO).  She doesn't IMO have much more to offer the plot than
that.  She is essentially a plot device for that particular book.  In
PS/SS, I see her as just Ron's whiny little sister, who has minimal
lines.  In PoA, we're back to Ginny as very very much a background
character.  She's not a victim in PoA; she's just a non-entity.  In GoF,
it's pretty much the same thing as PoA.  We see her interacting a little
bit more with the Trio, but they actually actively exclude her in at
least 2 instances.  We can infer that she interacts some with Hermione &
we just don't see it.  But, in general, Ginny remains a background minor
character in GoF.  She's the least-developed Weasley at this point.
Please note that I am not making any argument that she is a "victim" for
purposes of the entire series.

> Dumbledore is quite clear (and therefore JKR is quite clear) that
> adult wizards and witches have been fooled by Voldemort and that
> Ginny is not to blame because she has been victimized. There is
> nothing about her character or personality that causes her to be
> victimized.
>
I agree with that.  It's not her fault.  But, she is still just a plot
device.  She's not a well-developed character with anything to offer the
plot other than the fact that she was the one who fell into the trap of
Riddle's diary.  I'm not saying it's her fault; I'm just noting that
this is her role for that one particular book.  If she were portrayed as
a more fully-developed character in CoS, prior to the revelations about
Riddle's diary and her role in that, I might have another view
entirely.  But, what I see is a meek shy young girl who's barely
mentioned in passing until her pivotal role in the ending chapters.

> I think that characterizing her as a 'victim'is essentially victim
> blaming. She did not choose to be targeted by Voldemort and she did
> her best to resist.
>
How would you characterize her in CoS if not as a victim?

> how do we compare neville longbottom with ginny weasley?
> Some are characterizing ginny as a "victim", but not neville.
> why not? might it have to do with ...gulp..gender?
>
Leaping to conclusions again, Susan!  We're not talking about Neville.
We were talking about females & their relative strengths/weaknesses.
Last time I checked: Neville doesn't fit into that discussion.  Besides,
as I pointed out above, arguing that a character is a victim in one
instance (CoS in this case), does not mean that I believe she's a Victim
& nothing else for the entire series.  I suppose she's moved on,
although we have no real evidence of that since she's had very few lines
since CoS.

Penny




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